macexor wrote: Thought I might ask GK players about this thing.
If a GK unit uses Gate of Infinity, do stratagems like Auspex Scan or Eldar's Forewarned enable enemy units to shoot at units coming via Gate?
The 'reinforcements' blurb in the main rules is very broad and covers anything which looks like deepstrike no matter what it is called and what phase its in. Gate of infinity therefore = deploying via reinforcements The only requirement for the stratagems is for the target to be arriving via reinforcements.
So yes, the stratagems can be used vs GOI (twice in one turn if you are also deepstriking, due to the different phase)
^^ I think thats right based on a cursory read through of the related rules, any other takes?
The stratagem only works vs reinforcements.Gates =/= reinforcements. You already have to be on the table to be gated you're not going off board and then coming back via reinforcements. Otherwise it would work on models disembarking from vehicles.
Gate =/= reserves but it does = Reinforcements. There is nothing in the Reinforcements blurb on page 177 of the Big Rules that specifies the unit must come from off the board. Only that it be 'set up on the battlefield mid turn'.
And in fact if we take a look at the Gate power itself, it reads 'Remove this unit from the battlefield and immediately set it up etc...' So even by that logic it does go off board for a moment until you've set it up as per the power.
People get confused because 'Reinforcements' sounds like a replacement for the 7th edition "reserves", when its actually more like a replacement for 'Deekstrike'.
What the consensus about Castellan Crowe? I do really like his fluff especially after reading his novels so I have been thinking of getting his model, but his profille is uh, underwhelming. His only two good points is being a cheap HQ and could be good against cheap low save tarpits.
I found a deal at my FLGS store that was too good to pass up on, and now I find myself in possession of a box of Paladins/Terminators (for $20!). I'm not really interested in creating an entire Grey Knights army, but I do like the idea of a psychic-heavy detachment that I can deep strike down my opponent's throat.
With all that in mind, could you help me with some ideas for tactics/loadout? I was thinking I'd construct them as paladins, a paladin ancient, and a paladin apothecary for a vanguard detachment. I'm not sure what HQ I should get in that case, any ideas? How should I equip the paladins (it seems like dual falchions and maybe a hammer on the paragon is generally the way to go)? Any ideas for some marine combos that synergize well? I play Raven Guard and was thinking about using SftS to infiltrate a fairly large unit of sternguard to clear out some chaff and pave the way for the GK deep strike on turn 2. I'm concerned that they'll just be focus-fired down, but I suppose in that case it means that the rest of my army is attacking with impunity.
I know nothing at all about GKs apart from what I've read in this thread, so any help or guidance you can offer is much appreciated!
GuardStrider wrote: What the consensus about Castellan Crowe? I do really like his fluff especially after reading his novels so I have been thinking of getting his model, but his profille is uh, underwhelming. His only two good points is being a cheap HQ and could be good against cheap low save tarpits.
He's waste of points, but is that important enough to make you not buy his awesome model?
GuardStrider wrote: What the consensus about Castellan Crowe? I do really like his fluff especially after reading his novels so I have been thinking of getting his model, but his profille is uh, underwhelming. His only two good points is being a cheap HQ and could be good against cheap low save tarpits.
He's waste of points, but is that important enough to make you not buy his awesome model?
True enough I may run him as a Brotherhood Champion when I need a cheap HQ
Porphyrius wrote: I found a deal at my FLGS store that was too good to pass up on, and now I find myself in possession of a box of Paladins/Terminators (for $20!). I'm not really interested in creating an entire Grey Knights army, but I do like the idea of a psychic-heavy detachment that I can deep strike down my opponent's throat.
With all that in mind, could you help me with some ideas for tactics/loadout? I was thinking I'd construct them as paladins, a paladin ancient, and a paladin apothecary for a vanguard detachment. I'm not sure what HQ I should get in that case, any ideas? How should I equip the paladins (it seems like dual falchions and maybe a hammer on the paragon is generally the way to go)? Any ideas for some marine combos that synergize well? I play Raven Guard and was thinking about using SftS to infiltrate a fairly large unit of sternguard to clear out some chaff and pave the way for the GK deep strike on turn 2. I'm concerned that they'll just be focus-fired down, but I suppose in that case it means that the rest of my army is attacking with impunity.
I know nothing at all about GKs apart from what I've read in this thread, so any help or guidance you can offer is much appreciated!
By experience I tend to find the Ancients pretty uselss tbh. His solo profile keeps making him separated from the rest of the GKs. The Paladins I would equip with either Halberds or Dual Falchions.
The HQ really depends on how many points you are willing to spend, our best HQs are Draigo and Grand Master on a Dreadknight which are fairly expensive. I find Librarians a decent mid tier. Otherwise if you are short on points the Brotherhood Champion is a decent solo, there is a techmarine too that can help your Raven Gaurd though can't recall if he can repair non-GK stuff when he is run in a GK detachment
GuardStrider wrote: What the consensus about Castellan Crowe? I do really like his fluff especially after reading his novels so I have been thinking of getting his model, but his profille is uh, underwhelming. His only two good points is being a cheap HQ and could be good against cheap low save tarpits.
He's waste of points, but is that important enough to make you not buy his awesome model?
Crowe is towards the bottom of our barrel, yes. But it's worth mentioning he's probably a better pick than his D6 smite counterpart: the 140 pt. Purifiers.
If you give him Hammerhand (which you absolutely should) Crowe's extra attack rule starts to REALLY kick-in against fragile screen units and various troop squads. At S4 AP0, that's really all he can do in this meta -- kill screeners. But to do that you'll need to spend 1CP and deep strike him, then hope he makes his charge.
If feeling crazy you can make him warlord for an additional +1 to wound rolls. But IMO you would rather have a warlord with aura to re-roll charge rolls.
Porphyrius wrote: I found a deal at my FLGS store that was too good to pass up on, and now I find myself in possession of a box of Paladins/Terminators (for $20!). I'm not really interested in creating an entire Grey Knights army, but I do like the idea of a psychic-heavy detachment that I can deep strike down my opponent's throat.
With all that in mind, could you help me with some ideas for tactics/loadout? I was thinking I'd construct them as paladins, a paladin ancient, and a paladin apothecary for a vanguard detachment. I'm not sure what HQ I should get in that case, any ideas? How should I equip the paladins (it seems like dual falchions and maybe a hammer on the paragon is generally the way to go)? Any ideas for some marine combos that synergize well? I play Raven Guard and was thinking about using SftS to infiltrate a fairly large unit of sternguard to clear out some chaff and pave the way for the GK deep strike on turn 2. I'm concerned that they'll just be focus-fired down, but I suppose in that case it means that the rest of my army is attacking with impunity.
I know nothing at all about GKs apart from what I've read in this thread, so any help or guidance you can offer is much appreciated!
By experience I tend to find the Ancients pretty uselss tbh. His solo profile keeps making him separated from the rest of the GKs. The Paladins I would equip with either Halberds or Dual Falchions.
The HQ really depends on how many points you are willing to spend, our best HQs are Draigo and Grand Master on a Dreadknight which are fairly expensive. I find Librarians a decent mid tier. Otherwise if you are short on points the Brotherhood Champion is a decent solo, there is a techmarine too that can help your Raven Gaurd though can't recall if he can repair non-GK stuff when he is run in a GK detachment
Thanks for the tips! That's too bad to hear about the ancient; I like the model, but I was thinking it may be difficult to keep him in range of the rest of the detachment. I think I'll probably assemble the box with magnets, so perhaps I'll see how he does. If I'm not going to run him, could you suggest another elite unit to fill out the detachment? Maybe I should consider 2 squads of 3 paladins and an apothecary?
Regarding HQ, I'd ideally like to keep the detachment under 600 points. I know that's a tall order for a faction like Grey Knights, but I want to be able to load up on Raven Guard goodies as much as I can. I had been thinking of taking a Grand Master or possibly Voldus to make use of the auras. Unfortunately a GK techmarine can only heal GK vehicles, so that won't really work for me. I had been considering a chaplain: good idea, bad idea...?
Stratagems:
Psychic Onslaught and Precog for GMDKs, Communion for Vortex, Dark Age Weapons for Hellblasters, Hellfire Round for Heavy Bolter
Thanks for posting. Good luck in LVO!
One question: What is "Precog" for GMDKs?
Oh whoops, I meant Prognosticators, the +1 invuln strat. Somehow I was thinking of last edition's psychic power Precognition.
Thanks for clarifying. But why not give him Sanctuary instead of using the 2CP strategem??
Bc I only play Matched, and the other one definitely has Sanctuary up all the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: Elric you should absolutely run a banner with that many overchargers in one place.
This is a great idea that I hadn't considered. However, I'm struggling to find the points for it. Looks like I'd have to drop some GMDK guns, which I feel unwilling to do.....
Bc I only play Matched, and the other one definitely has Sanctuary up all the time.
That makes sense. I see you're running 3x GMNDKs. Is the one without 3++ invuln intended to be a sacrificial lamb? Or do you hold him in reinforcements until one GMNDK has died?
Edit: Oh holy wow just realized "HEED THE PROGNOSTICARS" is used "at the start of your turn". Does this mean it can be used multiple times?
Porphyrius wrote: I found a deal at my FLGS store that was too good to pass up on, and now I find myself in possession of a box of Paladins/Terminators (for $20!). I'm not really interested in creating an entire Grey Knights army, but I do like the idea of a psychic-heavy detachment that I can deep strike down my opponent's throat.
With all that in mind, could you help me with some ideas for tactics/loadout? I was thinking I'd construct them as paladins, a paladin ancient, and a paladin apothecary for a vanguard detachment. I'm not sure what HQ I should get in that case, any ideas? How should I equip the paladins (it seems like dual falchions and maybe a hammer on the paragon is generally the way to go)? Any ideas for some marine combos that synergize well? I play Raven Guard and was thinking about using SftS to infiltrate a fairly large unit of sternguard to clear out some chaff and pave the way for the GK deep strike on turn 2. I'm concerned that they'll just be focus-fired down, but I suppose in that case it means that the rest of my army is attacking with impunity.
I know nothing at all about GKs apart from what I've read in this thread, so any help or guidance you can offer is much appreciated!
By experience I tend to find the Ancients pretty uselss tbh. His solo profile keeps making him separated from the rest of the GKs. The Paladins I would equip with either Halberds or Dual Falchions.
The HQ really depends on how many points you are willing to spend, our best HQs are Draigo and Grand Master on a Dreadknight which are fairly expensive. I find Librarians a decent mid tier. Otherwise if you are short on points the Brotherhood Champion is a decent solo, there is a techmarine too that can help your Raven Gaurd though can't recall if he can repair non-GK stuff when he is run in a GK detachment
Thanks for the tips! That's too bad to hear about the ancient; I like the model, but I was thinking it may be difficult to keep him in range of the rest of the detachment. I think I'll probably assemble the box with magnets, so perhaps I'll see how he does. If I'm not going to run him, could you suggest another elite unit to fill out the detachment? Maybe I should consider 2 squads of 3 paladins and an apothecary?
Regarding HQ, I'd ideally like to keep the detachment under 600 points. I know that's a tall order for a faction like Grey Knights, but I want to be able to load up on Raven Guard goodies as much as I can. I had been thinking of taking a Grand Master or possibly Voldus to make use of the auras. Unfortunately a GK techmarine can only heal GK vehicles, so that won't really work for me. I had been considering a chaplain: good idea, bad idea...?
To be honest I have no idea, I don't think I've ever seen a GK player running a chaplain.
If you're only using 1 HQ then go with Draigo. Yes, he's more expensive than Voldus but he adds so much more to your combat capability of your other GKs.
Edit: Oh holy wow just realized "HEED THE PROGNOSTICARS" is used "at the start of your turn". Does this mean it can be used multiple times?
I would think not. A player turn is split into 6 phases, and that's it, there's nothing else in a turn. In the rules "start of your turn" isn't explicitly defined, which means it's synonymous with "start of Move phase" since that's the very first thing to happen in your turn.
Edit: Oh holy wow just realized "HEED THE PROGNOSTICARS" is used "at the start of your turn". Does this mean it can be used multiple times?
I would think not. A player turn is split into 6 phases, and that's it, there's nothing else in a turn. In the rules "start of your turn" isn't explicitly defined, which means it's synonymous with "start of Move phase" since that's the very first thing to happen in your turn.
Ehh I'm not sure about this. It probably needs an FAQ, but technically there may be some dead space before your Movement Phase officially starts. If you're playing a mission that uses Tactical Objectives, for example, those are generated "at the start of each of your turns" (BRBpg. 224), not at the beginning of your movement phase.
Further proof -- why are there GK stratagems that happen explicitly "at the start of any of your Movement phases", such as Tactical Flexibility (GK Codex pg. 98). Why else would GW word those differently than stratagems like Heed The Prognosticars that happen "at the start of your turn" (GK Codex pg. 99).
It makes quite a significant difference either way. A 3x GMDK Supreme command detachment can all be given a 3++ if Prognosticars can be used more than once. How do existing FAQs for other stratagems interact with this if at all?
Fragmentize wrote: Hey everyone,
if I was to start a GK army where would be the best place to start?
I thought GK would have a Start Collecting box but isn't the case :(
I want to start around 750pt~1000pts.
Any suggestions would be great since I don't know what to purchase first!
Hi mate, Welcome.
The backbones of most GK lists are Dreadknights driven by Grandmasters (GMDK)as your HQ's and Strike Squads as troops. Pretty hard to go wrong with those options to start and then build the rest of your army around what you like the look of, be it Terminators/Paladins, or perhaps Stormravens or Interceptors. All of those are effective enough choices, the rest of the codex can be more challenging to make effective in battle.
As I say to anyone starting a new army, think of it long term. The effectiveness of individual units and GK as a whole will change as rules, datasheets, and editions change. So your only safe bet is to go for units you like the look of.
Maybe it's in order to use an other Pyschic power? Or to give Sanctuary to an other GMDK, having to of them in 3++?
Aye makes sense. He's running 3x GM NDK though. Assuming he's alpha striking with all of them, it makes target priority rather easy for the opponent's dark reapers to shoot whichever doesn't have a +1 invuln buff on it... UNLESS the Prognosticars strategem is usable more than once simultaneously; hence our above discussion.
If I was to run let's say a Battalion Detachment in an 1000point list, and was running a Grand Master in Dreadknight- what are some viable choices for the 2nd HQ slot?
I don't want to run another GM in Dreadknight or any of the special characters like Drago or Voldus (due to in-house rules with playgroup- we don't do special characters in >2000 point armiess).
Is Brother-Captain and putting him with a Strike Squad for Smite-fest any decent?
For MSU Strike squads, what is the optimal weapon layout?
I heard that Falchions are better than swords but out of the special weapons, which one is the most popular one?
Incinerators? Psycannons? Psilencer?
Finally, are Terminators really that bad? Are there any strategies that can work with Terminators?
If I was to run let's say a Battalion Detachment in an 1000point list, and was running a Grand Master in Dreadknight- what are some viable choices for the 2nd HQ slot?
I don't want to run another GM in Dreadknight or any of the special characters like Drago or Voldus (due to in-house rules with playgroup- we don't do special characters in >2000 point armiess).
Is Brother-Captain and putting him with a Strike Squad for Smite-fest any decent?
For MSU Strike squads, what is the optimal weapon layout?
I heard that Falchions are better than swords but out of the special weapons, which one is the most popular one?
Incinerators? Psycannons? Psilencer?
Finally, are Terminators really that bad? Are there any strategies that can work with Terminators?
Thanks guys
Brother-Captain is fine. Another option is Librarian, but I don't think they do much. Brotherhood Champion doesn't buff your dudes but is cheap. He needs a transport though, since he cannot teleport strike. For Strikes Falchions and one Psilencer. Psilencer is the best out of our special weapons because of amount of shots and 1d3 damage.
I agree on most of what has been said. Falchions is the most efficient in CC, and Psilencer has a decent amount of Dakka, especially if you have some rerolls.
About the HQs, yeah why not a Brother-Captain. You can also try the Brotherhood Champion, he's not that bad for his points.
Concerning the Terminators, the biggest problem is that it's nearly always better to have to Strike Squads instead of one Terminator Squad (more targets, more smites, more tactical flexibility...)
I'd agree about the Bro Champ. Cheapest choice in the book makes him desirable, and his "I still get to hit!" after death is a bit of a shocker to some people. It means he can still do something after being charged by a DP (for example).
A Chaplin is also an ok choice, since you'll have lots of folks in melee range and he packs a decent punch.
I know the brotherhood champ and Crowe aren't particularly impressive on their own, but what do you think of them if they use the Teleportarium stratagem so they can deep strike?
daedalus wrote: I know the brotherhood champ and Crowe aren't particularly impressive on their own, but what do you think of them if they use the Teleportarium stratagem so they can deep strike?
Crowe still sucks even with that but the Brotherhood Champ can do some work. He'll definitely hurt SOMETHING. Might only be one thing though so make sure it's a good one.
My current list currently only has a single GMDK (since I only own one), and have been wondering what is the best way to deploy it on turn one.
1.Pay the Teleporter and have a guaranteed deepstrike on the 1st turn
2.Don't pay the Teleporter and use Gate of Infinity to teleport him, this way I can use Heed the Prognasticators on him turn 1 and have a 2+ invulnerable GMDK right from the start, however this means there is a small chance of gate not going off.
He is the biggest target I have on turn 1 (barring Draigo but they can't fire against him) so I assume they will unload everything they have on him on turn 1. However if Gate doesn't go off, I would have wasted 2cp to Heed on him for nothing, probably have most of my opponents army out of range and since he is my warlord, the First to the Fray won't be helping my other deep striking units.
Since I'm a new GK player I really don't feel comfortable giving advice. With that said, I prefer to T-port. If I don't get to go first then my opponent can't shoot at him and I can place him where I need him after my opponents move. If I go first then I can put him where I need him and deep strike some troops nearby. The troops should be able to cause enough concern that the DK shouldn't be shot at too much.
Assuming you have a GK detachment for the +1 to psychic powers, you have an 83.3% chance of pulling off GOI.
I guess it depends on whether or not you trust that you can manage without the GMDK for a turn 16.6% of the time. You could burn 2cp to reroll a die for the test, which would help, but I'm not sure what that would bump the odds to, also, 2cp is a lot for GK, particularly right as the game starts.
Also note that about half the playerbase thinks you can use Heed from reserves/reinforcements. So if your area does that interpretation I'd spring for the teleporter.
And also, what Sanctic powers should I be taking on my Strike Squads?
I'm tossing up between Hammerhand or Purge Soul?
Any recommendations? I guess Astral Aim if there are lots of cover on the battlefield.
If you are going to take a Strike Squad consider taking no special weapons, you give up your power sword and stormbolter. The stormbolter itself is pretty good as you deepstrike in doubletap range.
Best weapon is falchions, unless you want to take a hammer in which case give it to your Justicar. As for powers, hammerhand is the best usually.
Quickjager wrote:If you are going to take a Strike Squad consider taking no special weapons, you give up your power sword and stormbolter. The stormbolter itself is pretty good as you deepstrike in doubletap range.
Best weapon is falchions, unless you want to take a hammer in which case give it to your Justicar. As for powers, hammerhand is the best usually.
greyknight12 wrote:Second the falchions, for psychic powers don’t forget about gate of infinity!
Thanks for the replies!
So is no special weapons the way to go for MSU of 5 man Strike Squads?
Also does the Strike Squad box (10man) sprue contain enough Falchions to give to everyone? I tried looking at the sprue but couldn't distinguish which ones the sword and which ones the falchion :(
Oh and any general tips for assembling/painting Strike squads by any chance? (like should I magnetize them or are some parts hard to reach when painting so do sub-assembly?)
Quickjager wrote: If you are going to take a Strike Squad consider taking no special weapons, you give up your power sword and stormbolter. The stormbolter itself is pretty good as you deepstrike in doubletap range.
Best weapon is falchions, unless you want to take a hammer in which case give it to your Justicar. As for powers, hammerhand is the best usually.
As anyone tried to run GK with an Imperial Knight?
I got the feeling it's not a good idea, since this is not a good edition for either of the armies, and GK are already low model count as it is. But on the other hand an anti-armor dedicated knight might be useful? Since so far that has been consistently my weakest point when playing GK
I got the feeling it's not a good idea, since this is not a good edition for either of the armies, and GK are already low model count as it is. But on the other an anti-armor dedicated knight might be useful? Since so far that has been consistently my weakest point when playing GK
I've actually got a Shadowsword in my competitive list. 604pts, with all the sponsons, and it's supported by an AM Psyker, and it has some nasty stratagems.
Similar idea to a Knight, but tougher and more damage output against the things we have trouble handling, namely T7+ at range.
The primary weapon is S16 D2d6 reroll wounds against TITANIC. The 8d6 heavy flamer shots make it basically immune to charges.
Also does the Strike Squad box (10man) sprue contain enough Falchions to give to everyone? I tried looking at the sprue but couldn't distinguish which ones the sword and which ones the falchion :(
No, you have only 6 pairs of Falchions in a 10 men box.
Elric Greywolf wrote:I've actually got a Shadowsword in my competitive list. 604pts, with all the sponsons, and it's supported by an AM Psyker, and it has some nasty stratagems.
Similar idea to a Knight, but tougher and more damage output against the things we have trouble handling, namely T7+ at range.
The primary weapon is S16 D2d6 reroll wounds against TITANIC. The 8d6 heavy flamer shots make it basically immune to charges.
That's a good idea. Was thinking about a Knight too, but a Shadowsword could be a good idea.
A Falchion is a single edge sword, which means Halberd blades work in a jiffy as a Falchion replacement. You can then use the Halberd shafts for Hammers, as we have so few of those. Scratch building 101.
I got the feeling it's not a good idea, since this is not a good edition for either of the armies, and GK are already low model count as it is. But on the other hand an anti-armor dedicated knight might be useful? Since so far that has been consistently my weakest point when playing GK
I have a pretty nasty list that is 3 NDK GM, Knight crusader, then the rest is guard gun lines. It does really well. The crusader is still a boss in close contact with 12 str 8 ap-2 attacks.. that coupled with the thermal Canon and avenger is nasty. If they Target my imperial Knight then I have three dreadknights alive and at full health plowing through their line.
greyknight12 wrote: I think something along the lines of Daemonhunters “shrouding” would go a long way, as would the addition of some extra psychic disciplines.
That component was actually HUGE in using them back in 4th to me at least.
i am a grey knight / imperial soup player from hamburg.
started playing grey knights in 5th edition (those where the days ) and just recently came back to the hobby.
i was wondering why everybody is disliking purifiers. i sometimes run 2 x 5 man squads with a brother captain in a stormraven an had some good results.
in my experience they are a threat to almost everything, dishing out about 7-8 mortal wounds on average (sometimes more with a command point reroll) still shooting like a strike squad.
While it is a beta rule and not in it's final form every place that I've seen uses the rule as written (no exceptions for GK or Tsons).
Automatically Appended Next Post: In a recent event I attended I kept getting out pointed because I didn't have enough units (Strikes x3, Paladin, Interceptor all min). Used ITC packet and kept losing to held more objectives and recon.
I'm thinking for my next I'm thinking of a lot more units, although still at min size. I'm thinking Strike x4,Intercept, Paladins and Purgation.This should allow me to spread out a bit and still have an effective force.
I've been playing in an escalation league at my FLGS using pure Grey Knights, and out of the three games I had a draw in the 500 point, and wins in both the 750 and 1,000. I probably should have lost the 500, against primaris ultramarines, but he foolishly charged my GMDK who killed everything around.
The 750 point matchup was against Mechanicus, and I handil won that match. (Capture the relic game held the relic AND killed everything.)
My 1,000 point matchup I again just rolled over the opponent playng gunline ultramarines, killing Guilliman with my Dreadknight and Draigo, and wiping his other units out with a lucky psychic vortex.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 270pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer, Warlord
My 750 was similar but a patrol and remove 2 units of interceptors. My 500 had no Draigo.
I equate part of my success to the fact that no one in my area really knows how Grey Knights work, and my method of delivery. I have ensured each match that I'd be able to teleport all my units directly in front of the opponent turn 1 with a mix of interceptors, deepstrikers, and a single GOI.
How effective this will continue to be I'm unsure of but my next match is against a guardsmen player, possibly with a bane blade. All I've added is an apothecary and a techmarine (the techmarine isnt really wanted but I needed to fill some points in and I had it built, it'll be leaving the list immediately after.)
Anyone else had any success with the complete alpha strike?
Alpha strike is the GK players creed for 3 editions now. If you are the first GK player in the area expect people not to be ready for a fight on essentially a board half the size they expected.
A bit of a wall of text from a relatively new GK player:
So I went to the local meta 40k monthly meetup with what I hoped could be the final form of my new Daemonhunters army(GK+Scions, yes not pure GK but mostly GK based), unsurprisingly I was completely wrecked. This was the first match where I used GMDK, Draigo and the Ven.Dread.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Vortex of Doom
The idea is for most of my GKs to deepstrike and Scions to protect the backfield, although the melta command squad,tempestor prime and normal squad are also in deepstrike reserves to capture isolated points or apply pressure in a unprotected flank. The inquisitor is just there for fluff and to allow 1 extra unit to deepstrike
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I got two games in. One against Salamanders and other against Tau.
The salamanders army consisted on a huge battleline with Space Marines with lascanons heavy weapons around the Primaris Lieutenant and Chapter master for rerolls, backed by a couple of predators and ven dreads.Everything was wrapped in melta bikes so I couldn't charge his battleline after deepstrike.
Got the 1st turn, army performed decently after deepstrike, was dumb and didn't realize my own ven dread was out of reach of his vehicles so it was forced to fire at infantry while it couldn't move because it was capping a point. However I failed to cast sanctuary on GMDK, and his massed fire on the next turn killed it, Draigo and a huge chunk of my GK Infantary, after that a war of attrition issued which he won, I only managed to get two Strike Squad models into melee range of him.
The Tau game, well was a completely mess on my end, also got the first turn where my deepstrikes wrecked most of his pathfinder teams but on the following turn his Tiger Shark literally deleted nearly half of my army, he had some sort of direct Mortal Wound missile is Tiger Shark and some other vehicles which immediately killed my GMDK due to sheer volume and then then the tiger shark and the rest of his army just deleted my deepstriking units except Draigo and the Apothercary.The game was won on his first turn the rest was going through the motions.
-------------------------------------------
What I learned:
-GMDK is great on the first turn but everything focus on it on the next, killing him immediately, which sucks when he is also your warlord. Either I should buy more (which I didn't want because I have invested a lot of money in 40k recently) or don't deep strike him and use Heed the Prognasticators on him on the 1st turn and then gate him where I need him to go so he has a 2+ inv save at least.
-Also I was using psychic onslaught on him on the 1st turn and focus all the shooting on the most dangerous vehicles, next time I really should use the psilancer in the infantry
-I just can't get into melee range, there is no point in a power weapon army if I just can't, it's unlikely I get deep strike turn charges and then his army just deletes most of my infantry on the next turn. There needs to be something I can do besides first to the fray to assure I can get into melee phase, maybe an Eversor to distract the opponent as he can get into melee much easier?
-Venerable Dreadnought is a great anti-tank, even if I misused him on the 1st game, hiding him behind a building(pref with a objective)and then just firing away with astral aims works great.
-Draigo is also fantastic, he is resilient and hits like a truck besides the aura. I managed to gate him away to behind the enemies lines after the deepstrike in the Tau game and he was deleting vehicles in the fighting phase, but it was too little to late.
-I feel like Scions with special weapons complement well GK, Plasmas and Meltas perform consistently great.
The downside of using Scions in the backfield is that they lack ranged punch - they are far better getting up in people's faces. Normal guard infantry do the backfield job better in most cases - you can take heavy weapons and you're wasting less points on anti-infantry basic shots that you may not use for a couple of turns.
It feels like you need more anti-chaff dakka to clear screens and give you vectors to punch through into the opponents juicy stuff. AC Razorbacks might help, or even some Gatling tauroxes with the Scions. Something anyway.
I just built a list around GK and Scions. But I threw in an imperial knight. I'm my experience paladins are insanely resilient and with the threat of a knight it takes pressure off them.
The Scions will work the midfield/backfield as needed. Yes standard guardsmen would work better with lascannons but Scions are fluffy and awesome looking.
It's really important to just pick and choose your fights with GK you have to make the choices on where fights occur by using gate and teleport to set up kills.
I'm not underestimating the importance of awesome looking. I know for a fact that I'm wildly unlikely to ever paint a model that I hate, regardless of how effective it is one the table top.
Let's be realistic - not many of the hard core GK players are "that guy" because GKs are consistently a top-tier tournament list. They're "that guy" because GKs are friggin' cool, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, GK looks cool and their fluff is great, that's why I picked them up (well that and having gotten nearly 2000 points for less than 90 bucks 2nd hand), still I only won a single game this edition and it gets tiresome and frustrating getting always. owned
TheMostWize wrote: I just built a list around GK and Scions. But I threw in an imperial knight. I'm my experience paladins are insanely resilient and with the threat of a knight it takes pressure off them.
Can you share that list? I have been interested in how a knight can fit a GK army
I haven't used the Raven for a while, but I'm interested to see how it will do vs screens, since that's where I'm in trouble lately. T1 clear the screens, T2 do the Deep Strike.
Hey everyone, been following the advice posted and built an army revolving around the below, played 8 games now in matched play, random missions, with beta rules and looking for advice on optimizing this list/being less all in on my first turn;
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [285pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Vortex of Doom
I have been bumping this up to 1500, 1750 and 2000 with either assasins or a Inquisition supreme command detachment (only spare models). Both of these are fine in say a casual game but they have been useless against people who know what they are doing.
To help out with my question, play very experienced players so could be me being a bad pilot admittedly and I face heavy screening in nearly every game I face. Played Eldar (lost), DG (loss) , Ad Mech (loss), SW (won), Tau (won x2), Renegades SM (won), BT (recent loss). Think I got TS and Tyranids as other players in group.
Who could I ally with to help the above list? Or which GK units can I buy/build next to help against big MC, Armor, supporting my alpha strike if I can get them in. Don't mind FW or Gw
Totally understand my list won't guarantee me wins but right now feel like the list isn't helping the cause and I'm playing hard mode every game.
I'm relatively new to the game and haven't played more than 10 games with GK but...
I would switch out the termies for another strike squad and interceptors (you'll probably need to squeeze a couple of points out of your other units).
If you are going up points then you may want to look at Draigo. He gives you a bubble of reroll any hit and he hits like a train.
I'm afraid that we don't have any real answers to parking lots of vehicles if you want to stay mono codex. The best I've found is either a ven dread with twin lascannons for ~220 or a Storm Talon with twin Assault and twin lascannons for ~200.
So anyone here looking forward for the Forgebane box? I get the feeling they complement GK nicely and will make good allies. The Skittari rangers have high AP long range weapons that allows for them to sit on the backfield, and the mini knight description on the website makes them feel like tank hunters, a department that GK is lacking.
GuardStrider wrote: So anyone here looking forward for the Forgebane box? I get the feeling they complement GK nicely and will make good allies. The Skittari rangers have high AP long range weapons that allows for them to sit on the backfield, and the mini knight description on the website makes them feel like tank hunters, a department that GK is lacking.
I've been wanting admech for quite some time (both for GK allies and a stand alone army) and necrons are probably my favorite army but I've never bought any, so yes. I am super excited for this box.
So I was playing around trying to think of some of the weirdest silliest armies that we GK could build and I came up with a couple ideas that I really want to try. 2 Supreme Command Detachments filled with 3 GMDKs a piece, or 2 Spearhead detachment both headed by a GMDK and filled with 3 NDKs. Would these armies even stand a chance? Even in a non competitive setting? I've been going back and forth on their viability.
I would think that the Supreme choice due to having more of what are considered our best unit. I would think that 4 GMDKs may have a better survival rate than 6 DKs because of the 4++ the GM's have.
Also shouldn't you have some points left over for other units or are they eaten up with weapon/equipment choices?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I would think that the Supreme choice due to having more of what are considered our best unit. I would think that 4 GMDKs may have a better survival rate than 6 DKs because of the 4++ the GM's have.
Also shouldn't you have some points left over for other units or are they eaten up with weapon/equipment choices?
With greatswords, psycannons psilencers on everyone and homers on half you come to 1680 points. Interestingly you could actually add a 7th GMDK and you'd be at 1955.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Then I'd pick the 7 GMDKs there's no question in my mind it would be better than having only 2 GMDKS and 6 DKs.
Yeah 7 GMDKs is absolutely the better deal there. I just wonder if it would be at all effective.
It puts out 84 S4 D3 shots and 42 S7 AP-1 D2 shots at BS2, and is pretty good at CC. The problem is that you don’t have a lot of CP, so most will have a 4++, which still isn’t bad. I would throw hammers on a couple though. The list would struggle with morale-immune hordes, and from a lack of mobility (you can only gate one a turn), which may not be an issue depending on your game format. It would play similarly to a Custodes bike army, but without “fly” or the additional 6” of move a turn.
I have 5 DK models though so if I try it at a lower points value I’ll let you know.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Then I'd pick the 7 GMDKs there's no question in my mind it would be better than having only 2 GMDKS and 6 DKs.
Yeah 7 GMDKs is absolutely the better deal there. I just wonder if it would be at all effective.
It puts out 84 S4 D3 shots and 42 S7 AP-1 D2 shots at BS2, and is pretty good at CC. The problem is that you don’t have a lot of CP, so most will have a 4++, which still isn’t bad. I would throw hammers on a couple though. The list would struggle with morale-immune hordes, and from a lack of mobility (you can only gate one a turn), which may not be an issue depending on your game format. It would play similarly to a Custodes bike army, but without “fly” or the additional 6” of move a turn.
I have 5 DK models though so if I try it at a lower points value I’ll let you know.
It sounds doable on paper. I have 3, and I'm not a fan of how two turned out so I'm gonna get 2 more. I may just go all in and get the last 2 extra and test it out as well. Thanks for the input!
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Then I'd pick the 7 GMDKs there's no question in my mind it would be better than having only 2 GMDKS and 6 DKs.
Yeah 7 GMDKs is absolutely the better deal there. I just wonder if it would be at all effective.
It would play similarly to a Custodes bike army, but without “fly” or the additional 6” of move a turn.
These two limitations means that's it's probably going to be much worse. GMDKs are good, but they need support. SC Bikers, otoh, don't need support.
You could, for 1864, get ELEVEN SC Bikers, all with Misericordia, 7 Hurribolts and 4 Salvos. I feel like I know who's gonna win that matchup....
Mathhammer:
Two SCBs (no mis) will do 14 wounds to a GMDK on the charge. So on T1, that's 3-4 GMDKs dead, with assaults and shooting.
One GMDK shooting will give 6 wounds to a SC, not even enough to kill one. Bleugh.
Elric Greywolf wrote: These two limitations means that's it's probably going to be much worse. GMDKs are good, but they need support. SC Bikers, otoh, don't need support.
You could, for 1864, get ELEVEN SC Bikers, all with Misericordia, 7 Hurribolts and 4 Salvos. I feel like I know who's gonna win that matchup....
Mathhammer:
Two SCBs (no mis) will do 14 wounds to a GMDK on the charge. So on T1, that's 3-4 GMDKs dead, with assaults and shooting.
One GMDK shooting will give 6 wounds to a SC, not even enough to kill one. Bleugh.
True, but I take issue with “T1”: Bikes move 14”, GK guns are 24”. Even starting at 24.5”, the bikes aren’t all going to make their 10” charge; the DKs will get one turn of shooting in. Also, you pointed out that 2 bikes kill a dreadknight, but a dreadknight *only* does 6 wounds to a 7 wound model. By the same metrics you gave the bikes, 2 dreadknights do 12 wounds to SCB, or 1.7 dead...meaning 6 bike captains die to 7 GMDKs shooting, plus there’s a potential for 3-4 mortal wounds from smite to start with. With beta character rules, they will likely shoot ones with 3++.
And in CC, there is a chance the DKs will get the charge coming in from deepstrike: 1 w/sword=5.7 wounds avg, hammer does 5 minimum but potentially higher.
I agree that shield captains will probably win if objective are a factor, and fly is a game changer but I think in this match up the GMDKs have a reasonable chance of coming out on top.
Yeah, just waiting on the new big FAQ before I buy some GMNDKs and infantry squads (if they go up to 5 pts no biggie but if soup gets punished somehow I don't want to throw away a couple hundred bucks)
Necrons have like a sidegrade version of Vortex of Doom. I honestly think it is better.
Pick a visible enemy unit within 24 inches and roll a D6... On a 4+ the chosen unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. Then roll a D6 for every other enemy unit that is within 3 inches of the chosen enemy UNIT. On a 4+ they also suffer a mortal wound.
The biggest differences is 2 things.
1. GK can get up to D6 mortal wounds on the primary target and the surrounding targets, Necrons are stuck to D3 and 1 on the surrounding targets.
2. Necrons have the ability to actually pick their target and have a 24 inch range. Further their ability hurts the surroundings units based of the chosen enemy UNIT, not model. Meaning hitting a bubblewrap is actually going to hurt a lot more. They really should have called it chain lightning.
Why is it better? Because of the fact you can choose what is going to be hit and the fact GK is centered on a model not a unit. GK having it centered on a model means you aren't actually getting the splash, because the only thing within 3 inch of a model... is other models from the same unit. Meaning you literally just casted a STILL nerfed version of smite.
So congrats, a army with literally no psychic powers is now BETTER at the psychic phase than us.
Quickjager wrote: Necrons have like a sidegrade version of Vortex of Doom. I honestly think it is better.
Pick a visible enemy unit within 24 inches and roll a D6... On a 4+ the chosen unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. Then roll a D6 for every other enemy unit that is within 3 inches of the chosen enemy UNIT. On a 4+ they also suffer a mortal wound.
The biggest differences is 2 things.
1. GK can get up to D6 mortal wounds on the primary target and the surrounding targets, Necrons are stuck to D3 and 1 on the surrounding targets.
2. Necrons have the ability to actually pick their target and have a 24 inch range. Further their ability hurts the surroundings units based of the chosen enemy UNIT, not model. Meaning hitting a bubblewrap is actually going to hurt a lot more. They really should have called it chain lightning.
Why is it better? Because of the fact you can choose what is going to be hit and the fact GK is centered on a model not a unit. GK having it centered on a model means you aren't actually getting the splash, because the only thing within 3 inch of a model... is other models from the same unit. Meaning you literally just casted a STILL nerfed version of smite.
So congrats, a army with literally no psychic powers is now BETTER at the psychic phase than us.
I honestly prefer Purge Soul than Vortex of Doom. On the paper you have more MW with VoD, but on the field Purge Soul has been working better for me with Ld-9 models such as Draigo.
It's worse than you think, a 4+ is more likely to go off than a high warp charge power like Vortex - and it doesn't have a chance of killing your own unit!
I was thinking... would the following make Grey Knights competitive- All Nemesis Weapons ignore Invulnerable saves. The model hit must use its normal armor save if applicable.
IIRC this is the old Nemesis weapon rule and I think that this would allow GKs to be fielded and be competitive.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was thinking... would the following make Grey Knights competitive- All Nemesis Weapons ignore Invulnerable saves. The model hit must use its normal armor save if applicable.
IIRC this is the old Nemesis weapon rule and I think that this would allow GKs to be fielded and be competitive.
wasnt the old nemesis weapon rule just force weapon + some deamon stuff?
The old Nemesis weapon was a sliding scale: strikes got +2 strength, termies got +2 strength and it counted as a power weapon, Grandmasters got +2 strength and force weapon (note that in the old days power/force weapons ignored all armor saves). From 5th on everyone just got a force weapon with a different profile depending on if it was a sword, halberd, etc.
Psycannons and psybolt ammo (a character wargear upgrade) ignored invulnerable saves, but the fluff for those read a lot more like the psilencer description. In 5th they dropped the invul-ignoring but made paybolt ammo a +1 strength upgrade for a squad’s bolters. Psycannons became assault cannons with +1 strength for 5/6/7th, which makes their current profile baffling.
It would make GK better, but not by that much. They would see a lot more use as a bolt-on imperial detachment to deal with Daemons or assassinate characters, but for pure GK detachments the same threats (mainly shooting and getting bogged down in bubble wrap) would still kill them and we wouldn’t get much use out of the rule. That said, I think it’s a good way to give them a generically good ability that also really shines against Daemons.
If our Force weapons gained the old force rule from the Daemonhunter codex we would become pretty nasty in melee. We could insta-kill anything and everything again
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's people's opinion on the Heavy Incinerator? It's one of few flamer weapons that can hit from Deep Strike. Too expensive for the RNG involved?
Pretty much. It’s 10 more points than a heavy psycannons, but has 1 less strength and 12” less range, and it trades a guaranteed 6 shots for heavy D6 autohits. Since we’re normally mounting them on a BS2+ platform that re-rolls 1s, the autohits don’t make up for the lower number: Heavy 6 on a moving GMDK is 4.67 hits on average, vs 3.5 from the heavy incinerator.
Basically, it’s worse than a heavy psycannon but costs more.
Basically, it’s worse than a heavy psycannon but costs more.
To be fair, you could set up a Mad Lib type thing where you say "(name of flamer weapon) is worse than (name of non-flamer weapon) but costs more." and be right more often than you're wrong.
Already did, but that mathhammer doesn't discuss wether the premium paid to have a stronger alpha strike on your Deep Striker is worth it. It also only dealt with MEQ as a target.
The 2+ reroll argument makes sense though. I've only just started working on my GK again in 8th, but people aren't kidding when they say it's a weak book.
How about the Vindicator Laser Destroyer from Forgd World? It's T8 and provides anti-T7+ firepower for an okay cost. Could it patch up some of the weaknesses of the book?
It would help if GKs could take the same vehicle and dreadnaught models that every other SM chapter can take. That's because more options are better than less options.
As a whole the basic premise of how to translate fluff to rules fails miserably in the GK codex.
Starting a GK army right now. Trying to make it work.
I have a bunch of models I got as part of a lot. It's all Terminators / Paladins, about 40 of them. Plus 9 Land Raiders.
I purchased a Dreadknight and have 5 Razorbacks sitting around. Thinking I'm going to do Razorback assault cannon spam with multiple Strike squads, use the DK as a GMDK, and get a couple Stormtalons to make it tougher.
Does this sound remotely workable? All the lists I see right now are spamming DKs and infantry, feels like other tools are being overlooked.
I have a bunch of models I got as part of a lot. It's all Terminators / Paladins, about 40 of them. Plus 9 Land Raiders.
I purchased a Dreadknight and have 5 Razorbacks sitting around. Thinking I'm going to do Razorback assault cannon spam with multiple Strike squads, use the DK as a GMDK, and get a couple Stormtalons to make it tougher.
Does this sound remotely workable? All the lists I see right now are spamming DKs and infantry, feels like other tools are being overlooked.
It may be doable, the issue I always have is that once I start adding tanks I lose a lot of models and no longer have the board presence to win any matches. Our strikes and interceptors aren't any more durable than space marine tacticals really, and they'll get blown to bits. Our terminators cost way too much, and paladins while nice are typically too expensive to spam. This and my experience has led to me taking lots of infantry to try to maximize board coverage to minimize the hurt of each lost squad. Plus with few to no tanks my opponent typically doesn't have a lot to do with the tank killer units they brought so that's nice. I have 2 matches left of an escalation league and I've won 4 tied 1 and lost no matches at all and it's been with effective alpha/beta strikes utilizing interceptors, strike squads and my GMDK+Draigo. I am however adding a stormraven to my next list (1750 points) to deal with knights, primarchs, large tanks, and other flyers (flyers being in my opinion the hardest to deal with.)
That being said maybe tanks would help. I just feel they don't add enough for their cost.
Stormravens are great even after chapter approved. Definately go for the multi-meltas, they are the best platform in the game to get in close and melt enemy faces.
That said, after the points hike I always seem to struggle to fit both of my Stormravens into my lists. I remember before chapter approved I could fit them both into even 1500 point armies with no issues, but not so much afterwards. How much did the point cost hike by?
Just remember if you are trying to make GK work well to always include two squads of 10-man GKSS or Interceptors. It cannot be overstated how necessary that Psybolt stratagem is.
After a solid core of 2 GMDK + 2 GKSS, feel free to go crazy.
Quickjager wrote: Just remember if you are trying to make GK work well to always include two squads of 10-man GKSS or Interceptors. It cannot be overstated how necessary that Psybolt stratagem is.
After a solid core of 2 GMDK + 2 GKSS, feel free to go crazy.
This is probably the purest sum total expression of all our collective knowledge and analysis from the last 44 pages.
On the downside, that's 1000pts, and expensive PAGK are exactly as durable as cheaper MEQ.
(You could cast Sanctuary on a unit, but then you're NOT casting on your GMDK, at least in matched play.)
I'm not even sure that having 10 storm bolters is worth using 2 CP. Psybolt ammo doesn't really do much against anything with a T of 6-7 (most flyers and lighter vehicles). And against T8 it doubles the amount of potential wounds but the amount of wounds is still pretty insignificant.
40 S4 v T8 Av3+ =1.39 wounds.
40 S5 v T8 AV3+= 2.78 wounds
So is an extra 1 1/2 wounds worth 2 CP? Not to me.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm not even sure that having 10 storm bolters is worth using 2 CP. Psybolt ammo doesn't really do much against anything with a T of 6-7 (most flyers and lighter vehicles). And against T8 it doubles the amount of potential wounds but the amount of wounds is still pretty insignificant.
40 S4 v T8 Av3+ =1.39 wounds.
40 S5 v T8 AV3+= 2.78 wounds
So is an extra 1 1/2 wounds worth 2 CP? Not to me.
Funny you say this. I actually spent my day at work doing some math on this. I'll post it in the next couple minutes.
So I was curious if 2 cp was better spent on psybolt or psychic onslaught and this is what I came up with. I mathed out every armor save, and the points per damage considering the full points of the unit. (this may be messy as I'm at work. The math was done somewhat hastily and the formatting may suck)
Storm bolter in rapid fire range with psybolt
Spoiler:
Storm bolter in 10 man strike squad in rf range gets 26.67 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 17.78 wounds 2+ save = 5.92 unsaved wounds = .028 damage per point 3+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point 4+ save = 11.85 unsaved wounds = .056 damage per point 5+ save = 14.81 unsaved wounds = .071 damage per point 6+ save = 17.78 unsaved wounds = .085 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 13.33 wounds 2+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 3+ save = 6.67 unsaved wounds = .032 damage per point 4+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point 5+ save = 11.11 unsaved wounds = .053 damage per point 6+ save = 13.33 unsaved wounds = .063 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 8.89 wounds 2+ save = 2.96 unsaved wounds = .014 damage per point 3+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 4+ save = 5.93 unsaved wounds = .028 damage per point 5+ save = 7.41 unsaved wounds = .035 damage per point 6+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point
Storm bolter not in rapid fire
Spoiler:
Storm bolters in 10 man strike squad not in rf range gets 13.33 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 8.89 wounds 2+ save = 2.96 unsaved wounds = .014 damage per point 3+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 4+ save = 5.92 unsaved wounds = .028 damage per point 5+ save = 7.41 unsaved wounds = .035 damage per point 6+ save = 8.84 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 6.66 wounds 2+ save = 2.22 unsaved wounds = .011 damage per point 3+ save = 3.33 unsaved wounds = .016 damage per point 4+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 5+ save = 5.50 unsaved wounds = .026 damage per point 6+ save = 6.66 unsaved wounds = .032 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 4.44 wounds 2+ save = 1.48 unsaved wounds = .007 damage per point 3+ save = 2.22 unsaved wounds = .011 damage per point 4+ save = 2.96 unsaved wounds = .014 damage per point 5+ save = 3.70 unsaved wounds = .018 damage per point 6+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point
Psilencers who have not move
Spoiler:
4 purgations with psilencers (not counting 5th guy with storm bolter) standing still gets 16 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 10.67 wounds 2+ save = 3.56 unsaved wounds = 5.34 damage = .047 damage per point 3+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8 damage = .071 damage per point 4+ save = 7.11 unsaved wounds = 10.67 damage = .094 damage per point 5+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = 13.34 damage = .118 damage per point 6+ save = 10.67 unsaved wounds = 16.01 damage = .142 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 8 wounds 2+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 3+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point 4+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8 damage = .071 damage per point 5+ save = 6.67 unsaved wounds = 10.01 damage = .089 damage per point 6+ save = 8 unsaved wounds = 12 damage = .106 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 5.33 wounds 2+ save = 1.78 unsaved wounds = 2.67 damage = .024 damage per point 3+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 4+ save = 3.56 unsaved wounds = 5.34 damage = .047 damage per point 5+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = 6.67 damage = .059 damage per point 6+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8.00 damage = .071 damage per point
And finally Psilencers that did move
Spoiler:
4 purgations with psilencers (not counting 5th guy with storm bolter) after moving gets 12 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 8 wounds 2+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 3+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point 4+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8 damage = .070 damage per point 5+ save = 6.67 unsaved wounds = 10.01 damage = .089 damage per point 6+ save = 8 unsaved wounds = 12 damage = .106 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 6 wounds 2+ save = 2 unsaved wounds = 3 damage = .027 damage per point 3+ save = 3 unsaved wounds = 4.5 damage = .040 damage per point 4+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point 5+ save = 5 unsaved wounds = 7.5 damage = .066 damage per point 6+ save = 6 unsaved wounds = 9 damage = .080 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 4 wounds 2+ save = 1.33 unsaved wounds = 2 damage = .018 damage per point 3+ save = 2 unsaved wounds = 3 damage = .027 damage per point 4+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 5+ save = 3.33 unsaved wounds = 5 damage = .044 damage per point 6+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point
So the squad of 10 with storm bolters in rapid fire does more damage than any of the other options, followed by the squad of 5 with 4 psilencers who didnt move, the squad of 5 with psilencers who did move and then finally a squad of 10 with storm bolters not in rapid fire. I did not add in the one guy with a storm bolter in the psilencer math so that would increase their damage a bit. I did points per damage based on the full cost of the unit. Because of this you can see that if you're looking only for most damage per point using this stratagem the purgation squad takes it every time.
TBH I wouldn't use either of them for 2 CP. I usually only have 6 CPs per game and would rather use them for +1 Invulns, counter charges and/or the one that lets characters act after they've been "killed".
I typically have 7 CP and I always save 1 for the charcter to be able to fight again. I actually don't use the +1 invuln often. I can't use it on Draigo or GMDK turn 1 because they are in reserves. Turn 2 I want them shooting up Draigo. I could use it on my GMDK but honestly I haven't really needed to. Typically I've got them on the back foot turn 1, so 2 cp for an extra burst of damage is nice. Though I haven't taken a 10 man squad in a while and I'm not a fan of purgators. So I usually use it on my GMDK. 6 shots at strength 8 ap-2 D2 and 12 shots at strength 5 ap-1 Dd3 isn't bad. Worth 2 CP? Maybe, maybe not but in the end I don't typically have much better to use it on.
macexor wrote: What do you think is the best allied detachment for GK that is not Astra Militarum?
I'm thinking about Sisters of Battle. If only they weren't all metal...
I’m throwing in a couple inquisitors and Sly Marbo. Terrify seems like it’ll be nice to stop some overwatch and dominate is just a fun power. I’m adding sly marbo in just because I want to use him. I’m also using 4 inquisition acolytes all kitted with plasma guns.
I haven’t seen the point costs on the new knights but I feel like those will be really good for us. They have anti tank which is nice for us and if they are a decent price cost we can take 3 for 3 extra CPs
I am planning a nice fluffy list with tempestus, sisters of battle, and inquisition. I also want to try a list with grey Knights culexus Assassin and sisters of silence for an anti-psyker army.
macexor wrote: What do you think is the best allied detachment for GK that is not Astra Militarum?
I'm thinking about Sisters of Battle. If only they weren't all metal...
Not for long, by recent accounts
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With my Custodes, I've recently had success with adding tiny imperial soup Vanguard detachments to suit whatever needs I have for that particular army. Will be adding the same to my GK when I pick them up again.
1 or 2 detachments with the following:
HQ:
Primaris Psykers for smite
Greyfax for denies (GK dont really need these 2)
IG Company commander as a warlord for CP regeneration (this guy is worth his weight in gold)
Celestine & co
Elites:
Assassins (a Culexus is great for GK)
Custodes banner guy with Storm shield (he doesn't benefit from being in the main Custodes detachment)
Single Inquisitorial acolytes (8ppm) to fill out the slots and serve as crash dummies in your transports
If you wanna keep it fluffy (and not IG) take just Inquisitors as your HQ's and Assassins/Acolytes for Elites.
Edit: The Custodes banner guy with the 5++ banner might not be a terrible choice if you spam Strike Squads, giving an invuln save to your fragile PAGK dudes is pretty decent, and they can go 4++ on a big unit with Sanctuary.
macexor wrote: What do you think is the best allied detachment for GK that is not Astra Militarum?
I'm thinking about Sisters of Battle. If only they weren't all metal...
Not for long, by recent accounts
---
With my Custodes, I've recently had success with adding tiny imperial soup Vanguard detachments to suit whatever needs I have for that particular army. Will be adding the same to my GK when I pick them up again.
1 or 2 detachments with the following:
HQ:
Primaris Psykers for smite
Greyfax for denies (GK dont really need these 2)
IG Company commander as a warlord for CP regeneration (this guy is worth his weight in gold)
Celestine & co
Elites:
Assassins (a Culexus is great for GK)
Custodes banner guy with Storm shield (he doesn't benefit from being in the main Custodes detachment)
Single Inquisitorial acolytes (8ppm) to fill out the slots and serve as crash dummies in your transports
If you wanna keep it fluffy (and not IG) take just Inquisitors as your HQ's and Assassins/Acolytes for Elites.
Edit: The Custodes banner guy with the 5++ banner might not be a terrible choice if you spam Strike Squads, giving an invuln save to your fragile PAGK dudes is pretty decent, and they can go 4++ on a big unit with Sanctuary.
Assassin's and some acolytes with an inqy is a fun fluffy way to run grey knights and effective. I may try this out on my next game to help the grey knights a bit.
Had pretty good success this past weekend at a 20-man tourney. Tabelled two Eldar (one with Harlie support, one with Fire Prisms, both with ~15 Reapers and Farseers).
I'm considering swapping out Draigo and some Striker bodies for Celestine and an Apothecary with Soul Glaive, but I'm torn on the change.
Draigo does more damage in CC and has a better invuln (can get to 2++ with the Strat, and can fight after death with the strat); he also provides support to my GK units and is a general beatstick--he ALWAYS hits, and wounds on at least a 3+, or 2+ with HH. However, he's slow and is vulnerable to getting tied up in melee with chaff.
Celestine is insanely survivable, thanks to having 14 wounds and a 2+4++. Her resurrect ability is basically a free Gate, that I usually use to protect my backfield objective against enemy Deep Strikers. (For example, in one game I played this weekend, some Ruststalkers came up and murdered my two Guard squads sitting on an objective. I had to Gate a GMDK back there to deal with it. Whereas with Celestine, she would've just died and popped up back there to kill them all.) But she provides no support for the rest of my army--she's a lone wolf in my list, and I already have a Callidus and a Culexus in there as loners.
Tactically, Draigo drops by a 10man GKSS and the Raven for rerolls fun, and then tries to make a charge. Celestine would faith move forward and prolly kill some chaff, which she's great at, then fly over and try for a vehicle/monster. Without Draigo, I'd have to position a GMDK near the Raven and GKSS for a worse reroll than Draigo. This is bad because the GMDK base size is often difficult to position when he has to triangulate between 1) a charge target, 2) the Raven, and 3) the GKSS. Draigo is much easier to fit into that position. The Apothecary with Soul Glaive is basically a self-healing, baby Draigo. He can survive in combat thanks to restoring wounds to himself. He'll always hit on a 2+ rerolling, and he'll usually wound at S5 rerolling. However, while Draigo can solo anything and do lots of damage (S8 D4 yes please), this guy is best against troops only, while he could get to 4+ wounds on vehicles IF Hammerhand. And his damage is d3 instead of flat 4, booooo. And he can't go in with anything that hits hard, bc he only has a 2+5++, and Sanctuary/Prognosticators will always be on the GMDKs.
daedalus wrote: I actually LIKE Mordian because it fits my playstyle, but why did you go with that one? Just for the leadership boost?
Bc those units aren't survivable OR threatening, they're solely for babysitting objectives. That means that they are constantly getting charged by enemy Deep Strikers, so improved OW at least lets them shoot once before they die :/
If you're going for the overwatch, then a plasma pistol and plasmagun might be handy if you can justify the points. They're fairly cheap and at 5+ almost worth it. I have had more luck with them than otherwise, anyway.
Of course, that might make them a little more threatening, and then they become a target. Just food for thought.
One thing I noticed right off the bat in that bat rep
In the psychic phase, the Grandmaster cast Sanctuary on himself. He then cast Astral Aim on himself.
Can't do that as a GM only knows 1 power plus smite
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elric Greywolf wrote: Had pretty good success this past weekend at a 20-man tourney. Tabelled two Eldar (one with Harlie support, one with Fire Prisms, both with ~15 Reapers and Farseers).
I'm considering swapping out Draigo and some Striker bodies for Celestine and an Apothecary with Soul Glaive, but I'm torn on the change.
Draigo does more damage in CC and has a better invuln (can get to 2++ with the Strat, and can fight after death with the strat); he also provides support to my GK units and is a general beatstick--he ALWAYS hits, and wounds on at least a 3+, or 2+ with HH. However, he's slow and is vulnerable to getting tied up in melee with chaff.
Celestine is insanely survivable, thanks to having 14 wounds and a 2+4++. Her resurrect ability is basically a free Gate, that I usually use to protect my backfield objective against enemy Deep Strikers. (For example, in one game I played this weekend, some Ruststalkers came up and murdered my two Guard squads sitting on an objective. I had to Gate a GMDK back there to deal with it. Whereas with Celestine, she would've just died and popped up back there to kill them all.)
But she provides no support for the rest of my army--she's a lone wolf in my list, and I already have a Callidus and a Culexus in there as loners.
Tactically, Draigo drops by a 10man GKSS and the Raven for rerolls fun, and then tries to make a charge.
Celestine would faith move forward and prolly kill some chaff, which she's great at, then fly over and try for a vehicle/monster. Without Draigo, I'd have to position a GMDK near the Raven and GKSS for a worse reroll than Draigo. This is bad because the GMDK base size is often difficult to position when he has to triangulate between 1) a charge target, 2) the Raven, and 3) the GKSS. Draigo is much easier to fit into that position.
The Apothecary with Soul Glaive is basically a self-healing, baby Draigo. He can survive in combat thanks to restoring wounds to himself. He'll always hit on a 2+ rerolling, and he'll usually wound at S5 rerolling. However, while Draigo can solo anything and do lots of damage (S8 D4 yes please), this guy is best against troops only, while he could get to 4+ wounds on vehicles IF Hammerhand. And his damage is d3 instead of flat 4, booooo. And he can't go in with anything that hits hard, bc he only has a 2+5++, and Sanctuary/Prognosticators will always be on the GMDKs.
Zarroc1733 wrote: One thing I noticed right off the bat in that bat rep
In the psychic phase, the Grandmaster cast Sanctuary on himself. He then cast Astral Aim on himself.
Can't do that as a GM only knows 1 power plus smite
The list didn't say who was the Warlord for the GK, but couldn't the GKGM have had the +1 psychic power knowd trait?
I honestly forgot that warlord trait existed. I guess it's possible (though I always saw that one as a waste. Maybe why I forgot it.) So it could be legal after all. Another weird part of that batrep was that he said he failed to saves against Draigo and took 4 damage, but it should've been 6 which iirc would kill a bike captain though I guess he could've taken the FNP warlord trait and reduced that by 2. Also I'm assuming a lot of it is from memory so it could be wrong in a couple places.
Interesting batrep about a guy getting beat by grey knights. A pure grey knights list that went to win a tournnament.
Honestly did anyone else think how ghastly the White Scars list was?
I could've beat that with Index Necrons.
Yeah, not impressed either. There's almost no anti-tank/big stuff shooting, and most of it is Missile Launchers. No wonder the Grand Master ran rampant through the White Scars.
I remember somewhere people mentioning that scout allies mix really well with GK but don't recall why? Was it because the scout move helps preventing getting deep striked back?
Interesting batrep about a guy getting beat by grey knights. A pure grey knights list that went to win a tournnament.
Can't say I was impressed by the White Scar general, he himself noticed his mistakes in the after-thoughts. Shooting a 3+ invul isn't very productive in the long run. Also he played the mission objectives rather than doing the smart thing and going for the tabling or at least killing power armor squads. It was an interesting choice to engage a strike squad with just a captain and some scout bikers while Draigo was so close. Moving back and shooting would have been a real good move on his part. I'm going to ignore how badly he was outscored because of the kill point modifier. I would like to see the rest of the opponents.
Interesting batrep about a guy getting beat by grey knights. A pure grey knights list that went to win a tournnament.
Can't say I was impressed by the White Scar general, he himself noticed his mistakes in the after-thoughts. Shooting a 3+ invul isn't very productive in the long run. Also he played the mission objectives rather than doing the smart thing and going for the tabling or at least killing power armor squads. It was an interesting choice to engage a strike squad with just a captain and some scout bikers while Draigo was so close. Moving back and shooting would have been a real good move on his part. I'm going to ignore how badly he was outscored because of the kill point modifier. I would like to see the rest of the opponents.
I'm curious, since the grey Knight player won the tournament what his his other games were against and the rules of the tournament.
I'd be more interested in seeing his actual list to see if the assumptions made in this thread are correct or whether he played an illegal list or made some illegal uses of his figures. I also wonder if he remembered that all of his psilencers were firing at -1 to hit since they moved (it just seems like he got an awful lot of hits/wounds per unit). I'm not saying that he did anything wrong but I'd like more details.
Anyone had any success with purifiers? I currently run paladins with draigo. Just bought my first dreadknight but I really want to figure out how to use purifiers as I love their fluff.
TheMostWize wrote: Anyone had any success with purifiers? I currently run paladins with draigo. Just bought my first dreadknight but I really want to figure out how to use purifiers as I love their fluff.
Stormravens? Razorbacks?
28 ppm after stormbolters makes them too expensive for me. Combined with the fact that they gain nothing for those points except a more damaging but more limited smite(which means you're paying 30 more points for a rule that pretty much only benefits one model as you only get one cast per unit). If you are dead set on using them a stormraven would probably be your best bet. Drop them off as close as possible. I've tried this but never had any luck. But I guess if you have an extra 30 points you have no reason not to upgrade a squad of strikes to a squad of purifiers (except maybe you may need strikes to meet detachment requirements) but I'd probably look for upgrades elsewhere.
I'm giving them a try the next game I play. Rather than starting them in a Raven I'm putting them and a strike squad in a redeemer. My meta has a high number of Fire Raptors and math hammer says that land raiders last longer than Ravens. If I were building a list around them I would also put Crowe, a Captain and a banner bearer in the list. The captain will allow them all to Smite at 6" and the other 2 models also have normal smites, albeit normal range is only 3". If you're going to go after units using smite then you might as well go whole hog.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm giving them a try the next game I play. Rather than starting them in a Raven I'm putting them and a strike squad in a redeemer. My meta has a high number of Fire Raptors and math hammer says that land raiders last longer than Ravens. If I were building a list around them I would also put Crowe, a Captain and a banner bearer in the list. The captain will allow them all to Smite at 6" and the other 2 models also have normal smites, albeit normal range is only 3". If you're going to go after units using smite then you might as well go whole hog.
I'm thinking of take them in a crusader. With the Psybolt stratagem that thing will out out 24 str 5 ap -1 and 12 str 6 ap -1 shots. Great for clearing infantry before your purifiers get out. Drive it up shoot at a target. Charge the land raider into something else and drag launcher them. Next turn 3 purifier squads get out and D6 smite stuff then proceed to shoot and charge anything left.
I just wish GW went back to the old rule where you could exit a vehicle after it moved but couldn't move any farther. Then purifiers would really be useful.
Or maybe they should enable that rule for vehicles with assault ramps and their equivalents. That way troops aren't trapped in a vehicle for extra time and riding in a vehicle would be more useful than the vehicle just being mobile armor. At least assault vehicles would have a true purpose.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I just wish GW went back to the old rule where you could exit a vehicle after it moved but couldn't move any farther. Then purifiers would really be useful.
Or maybe they should enable that rule for vehicles with assault ramps and their equivalents. That way troops aren't trapped in a vehicle for extra time and riding in a vehicle would be more useful than the vehicle just being mobile armor. At least assault vehicles would have a true purpose.
Yea I'm not really sure what they changed that rule. The fact that disembarking has to occur at the start of the movement phase is odd to me.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I just wish GW went back to the old rule where you could exit a vehicle after it moved but couldn't move any farther. Then purifiers would really be useful.
Or maybe they should enable that rule for vehicles with assault ramps and their equivalents. That way troops aren't trapped in a vehicle for extra time and riding in a vehicle would be more useful than the vehicle just being mobile armor. At least assault vehicles would have a true purpose.
Yea I'm not really sure what they changed that rule. The fact that disembarking has to occur at the start of the movement phase is odd to me.
It does seem to negate some of the use of a transport you know "transporting" units. They move quicker when they're in it but often have to wait a turn before getting out.
Purifiers just have no synergy to be useful. Plenty of easy fixes for purifiers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note... Anyone ever try a 5 man purgation squad with 4 incinerators in a storm raven or landraider? seems like legit dakka with the mobility to get places
If the incinerators were cheaper I would agree. GW needs to get it though their thick heads we should not be paying so much for "upgrades" when it forces us to literally give up a force sword and stormbolter.
The problem with the purgation squad in a Raven or any transport is in the basic transportation rules. Your opponent knows that the squad is in the model and knows that you can't get out until the start of your next turn. So what happens is you move the transport up to your intended target. The target moves away. Repeat as necessary or until transport is destroyed with the purgators being left away from their target and usually exposed.
GW needs to put some meaning in a vehicle having an "assault ramp". Like allowing models to disembard after the vehicle moves but not allowing the unit to move after disembarkation until the declare charge phase.
Yeah at 33 ppm (153 points for the squad) you could take a strike squad and a half. Maybe if you had the extra points but I never seem to have extra points. But strikes are also more useful for filling up a b for more CPs. The only infantry I've found that I feel rivals the usefulness of strikes are interceptors. You get an extra 6 inches of movement, the ability to move over models and terrain as if they weren't there and a really useful teleport. They don't mind starting on the field meaning you can DS more units. All this for only 4 extra ppm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The problem with the purgation squad in a Raven or any transport is in the basic transportation rules. Your opponent knows that the squad is in the model and knows that you can't get out until the start of your next turn. So what happens is you move the transport up to your intended target. The target moves away. Repeat as necessary or until transport is destroyed with the purgators being left away from their target and usually exposed.
GW needs to put some meaning in a vehicle having an "assault ramp". Like allowing models to disembard after the vehicle moves but not allowing the unit to move after disembarkation until the declare charge phase.
This would help a lot of armies too, not just GK. Orks would love it. I wouldn't mind even being allowed to disembark after movement but you gotta roll a d6 and on a 1 a model is slain or something. Anything is better than now.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Yeah at 33 ppm (153 points for the squad) you could take a strike squad and a half. Maybe if you had the extra points but I never seem to have extra points. But strikes are also more useful for filling up a b for more CPs. The only infantry I've found that I feel rivals the usefulness of strikes are interceptors. You get an extra 6 inches of movement, the ability to move over models and terrain as if they weren't there and a really useful teleport. They don't mind starting on the field meaning you can DS more units. All this for only 4 extra ppm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The problem with the purgation squad in a Raven or any transport is in the basic transportation rules. Your opponent knows that the squad is in the model and knows that you can't get out until the start of your next turn. So what happens is you move the transport up to your intended target. The target moves away. Repeat as necessary or until transport is destroyed with the purgators being left away from their target and usually exposed.
GW needs to put some meaning in a vehicle having an "assault ramp". Like allowing models to disembard after the vehicle moves but not allowing the unit to move after disembarkation until the declare charge phase.
This would help a lot of armies too, not just GK. Orks would love it. I wouldn't mind even being allowed to disembark after movement but you gotta roll a d6 and on a 1 a model is slain or something. Anything is better than now.
I like purgation squads with 4 psilencers. They can start on the field and move to about mid field and hang there the rest of the game casting astral aim. Good target for some Psy ammo too with 24 shots doing d3 at str 5 ap-1. Have draigo near and even on the move they hit 75%. Nasty lil squad. They usually don't take much abuse since the opponent is usually concerned with the dreadknights, interceptors, strike squads and paladins in their face a bit more.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Yeah at 33 ppm (153 points for the squad) you could take a strike squad and a half. Maybe if you had the extra points but I never seem to have extra points. But strikes are also more useful for filling up a b for more CPs. The only infantry I've found that I feel rivals the usefulness of strikes are interceptors. You get an extra 6 inches of movement, the ability to move over models and terrain as if they weren't there and a really useful teleport. They don't mind starting on the field meaning you can DS more units. All this for only 4 extra ppm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The problem with the purgation squad in a Raven or any transport is in the basic transportation rules. Your opponent knows that the squad is in the model and knows that you can't get out until the start of your next turn. So what happens is you move the transport up to your intended target. The target moves away. Repeat as necessary or until transport is destroyed with the purgators being left away from their target and usually exposed.
GW needs to put some meaning in a vehicle having an "assault ramp". Like allowing models to disembard after the vehicle moves but not allowing the unit to move after disembarkation until the declare charge phase.
This would help a lot of armies too, not just GK. Orks would love it. I wouldn't mind even being allowed to disembark after movement but you gotta roll a d6 and on a 1 a model is slain or something. Anything is better than now.
I like purgation squads with 4 psilencers. They can start on the field and move to about mid field and hang there the rest of the game casting astral aim. Good target for some Psy ammo too with 24 shots doing d3 at str 5 ap-1. Have draigo near and even on the move they hit 75%. Nasty lil squad. They usually don't take much abuse since the opponent is usually concerned with the dreadknights, interceptors, strike squads and paladins in their face a bit more.
I've always found them too easy to destroy and they are a much higher value target than strikes or interceptors. If you babysit them with Draigo I feel you're wasting so much of Draigo's potential. Typically if I'm gonna spend 2 cp on psy a stratagem I'll either use psybolt on a unit of 10 with storm bolters or I'll use psyammo on my GMDK. Of course ymmv
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I'm in a 1750 point match today against sisters of battle with allied astra millitarum. I'm not entirely sure what she's bringing but I know Celestine and Tank Commander Pask will make appearences. The match is an all out slug fest last man (or woman) standing wins. We must completely table our opponent. That being the case I'm kind of worried. This is my list
It cannot be changed at this point. I'm worried that if I don't get 1st turn Pask will wipe my stormraven off the board immediately. In the past she's used the punisher gatling cannon however it could have changed. I'm thinking about trying to wait out her task placement and putting my stormraven around 57 inches away to be out of range of its guns unless it moves full 10 inches (losing the double attack.) If I win turn 1 move 45 inches getting with 12 for my melta and just blowing Pask off the board. I've also yet to see Celestine in action. Looking at her stats it doesn't seem she is much of a threat to Draigo or the GMDK. Anyone else have any tips or anything they think I should be aware of? If I win this match I'm nearly guaranteed to win this league.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I've wondered if I should maybe make the champion my warlord as he has few enough wounds to hide.
If you are shoot my mid field models who are very likely in cover, then my models looking to get into assault tend to survive and reach a combat easier. -or- I can spend a cp and deep strike them behind a building and let astral aim do the work. Their use is to hold mid field and still pour hate from their max range shooting at 24". Strikes have a different role and achieve their max potiential under 12" making use of both the shooting and assault phase. Same with most the rest of the army.
I think just the one squad goes a long way. And are not much more than a strike squad. Psilencers are pretty well priced
Don't see the issue with the new transport rules. You can move in your turn like normal , so just park your raven 2'' to your target. Only the fastest will be able to escape
Off hand you need some strike squad models. I'd say at least 10 and better would be 20.
Mortis dreadnaughts are not allowed in a GK detachment (for chapter abilities purposes), they are not in either our codex or Imp Index 1 so they can not have the Grey Knights designation.
Use your Termies as Paladins. Unless/unitl GW changes the basic rules for Termies they just aren't worth their points. Paladins last longer on the board.
As for armaments you should definately check out page 9 of this thread.
Anything else is up to how you like to play the game.
So I lost my first escalation match. This was the first opponent who counter deployed me, in that she actually measured out the 9 inches and ensured I couldn't deep strike in where I'd like to. She also had 3 lemans and tank commander pask. I did manage to find nice ds zone, but I failed 9 out of my 10 charges only making one with a squad of 5 interceptors (2 died in overwatch) who then failed to scrath the leman. I killed pask turn 1 with my stormraven but on her turn itwas shot out of the sky by the lemans I was also in a bit of a hurry and forgot to fight with Draigo once, and messed up a couple rules and she did the same as she's brand new to 40k.
In the end I had no issue with celestine or the other sisters, but I couldn't get through those leman russes. I never made it into melee with them and that really was my only chance.
Armour is what pure GK really struggle with. A GMDK with buffguns will do some damage to a single model, but not enough. This is the area where GK need allies. Dark Angel Plasma is good support (a spearhead with Lt HQ, and a mix of devastators and hellblasters). Lemen Russ support is also strong.
You made the right choice, killing Pask with the Raven. But like you experienced, after that your efficiency drops dramatically.
If you want CPs then you need troops. You only get 2 troop choices Strikes or Termies. Temies are way overpriced. Start with strikes in deep strike mode if you can. If not put them in as a screen or a second wave of attackers.
Aeri wrote: Don't really like strikes, what about more interceptors?
I was thinking about deploying the interceptors and moving them up 30inches in turn 1.
Strikes would just sit in the backfield I fear.
I think the idea is that you take equal amounts of both.
Your strikes sit in deepstrike reserve, or whatever they call it now, and the Interceptors deploy on the board and teleport shunt up the field turn 1 as you say. That way everyone is in the mix as soon as possible. Don't forget you can also Gate a unit per turn.
Taking all interceptors would be ideal if it weren't for the increased cost (less bodies) and the fact that strike squads are troops choices, so you can use them to get the command points you need desperately.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Armour is what pure GK really struggle with. A GMDK with buffguns will do some damage to a single model, but not enough. This is the area where GK need allies. Dark Angel Plasma is good support (a spearhead with Lt HQ, and a mix of devastators and hellblasters). Lemen Russ support is also strong.
You made the right choice, killing Pask with the Raven. But like you experienced, after that your efficiency drops dramatically.
Yeah. I've got one more match before its over but as it is unless the sister player loses she's going to in the league (as she's yet to lose and has tied one match.) That being said because of the way they are doing this league there is a chance I could go up against her again. In that case I want to be prepared for this situation to go for the tie. I WAS planning on being a little silly with my 2000 point list and I was gonna take Celestine, an inquisitor, sly marbo and some plasma and/or melta acolytes. But knowing I'm close to winning this I'm gonna try to go all out. I'm not above allying, though I don't have much myself. My friend has some Guard he'll let me use so I could maybe get some Leman Russes. I'm gonna spend some time trying to come up with a list
greyknight12 wrote: I thought that "Grey Knights" could take the place of "chapter" for the forgeworld stuff, but maybe I'm confused with 7th Ed IA rules.
I believe one of the FAQ's said we cannot. That's why we get our own Grey Knight section of the Space Marine Imperial Armor. :(
greyknight12 wrote: I thought that "Grey Knights" could take the place of "chapter" for the forgeworld stuff, but maybe I'm confused with 7th Ed IA rules.
I believe one of the FAQ's said we cannot. That's why we get our own Grey Knight section of the Space Marine Imperial Armor. :(
Yup, found it in the Imperial Armor FAQ. It’s really a shame.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: If you can check out some Fire Raptors they're just killers and, in my opinion, very underpriced for what they can do.
Sadly I doubt this will be an available option. I have been looking into a knight however. I have a knight paladin sitting around. I may even be able to fit space into my list for 2 armigers and a paladin which would bring 3 extra cp. The issue is idk if I'll have the armiger models by the time my next match comes up.
Rather than a knight why don't you see if you can get 2 more Storm Ravens? This way you can have a flyer wing detachment and the Ravens are much more manueverable than a titan and probably a bit more survivable and only a little more in points than the titan.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Rather than a knight why don't you see if you can get 2 more Storm Ravens? This way you can have a flyer wing detachment and the Ravens are much more manueverable than a titan and probably a bit more survivable and only a little more in points than the titan.
That's a decent possibility. It'll depend on funds between now and then but I like that idea.
greyknight12 wrote: I thought that "Grey Knights" could take the place of "chapter" for the forgeworld stuff, but maybe I'm confused with 7th Ed IA rules.
I believe one of the FAQ's said we cannot. That's why we get our own Grey Knight section of the Space Marine Imperial Armor. :(
Yup, found it in the Imperial Armor FAQ. It’s really a shame.
Yea I agree I think it's stupid. Giving the GK ability to replace the <chapter> word would be a huge boon as we could shore up some weakness without screwing our special rules.
Things like Sicarans and Xiphon interceptors as well as the aformetioned fire raptor would help immensely. I don't understand the logic on why we can't take them but oh well.
I made a list trying to leverage the Chaplain. It is just too hard with the limit of half our army not being able to deepstrike. His best feature is complete rerolls in melee, so if you spam PAGK with falchions it is nice.
Do you want just melee rerolls? The GMDK gives rerolls on 1 for everything has a bigger base so the aura is bigger, is much more durable and deadly, but it is twice as expensive. Or you know, just take Draigo who can hide.
Chaplain is purely a budget option I feel. I mean we ARE scrapping points, but its a points question of whether we want to field one more unit, if we don't scrap for that extra squad, we get 110 points to mess with all of a sudden. Which is pretty much the difference between Draigo and a Chaplain. Or we can go even more budget and take Voldus who is pretty cheap.
It is really hard to justify just melee rerolls with how we do so much work with stormbolters.
I don't know if he would even then because as was said earlier Draigo does his job but better. A GM or GMDK only re-rolls rolls of 1, but allows it in both shooting and fighting. And those also serve other purposes much better than the Chaplain
Quickjager wrote: I made a list trying to leverage the Chaplain. It is just too hard with the limit of half our army not being able to deepstrike. His best feature is complete rerolls in melee, so if you spam PAGK with falchions it is nice.
Do you want just melee rerolls? The GMDK gives rerolls on 1 for everything has a bigger base so the aura is bigger, is much more durable and deadly, but it is twice as expensive. Or you know, just take Draigo who can hide.
Chaplain is purely a budget option I feel. I mean we ARE scrapping points, but its a points question of whether we want to field one more unit, if we don't scrap for that extra squad, we get 110 points to mess with all of a sudden. Which is pretty much the difference between Draigo and a Chaplain. Or we can go even more budget and take Voldus who is pretty cheap.
It is really hard to justify just melee rerolls with how we do so much work with stormbolters.
Actually I would argue the Chaplain has synergy more with a Paladin-heavy list than with a PAGK list.
PAGK-spam lists derive their damage efficiency much more heavily from storm bolter fire, so you'll want them to have Draigo or GM auras.
Paladin damage efficiency is weighted more heavily toward the Fight phase. Here the Chaplain is suited best as cheap force multiplier.
Really, though, the best force multiplier for Paladin-heavy armies is an Ancient. Too bad he's not an HQ.
Zarroc1733 wrote: I don't know if he would even then because as was said earlier Draigo does his job but better. A GM or GMDK only re-rolls rolls of 1, but allows it in both shooting and fighting. And those also serve other purposes much better than the Chaplain
Point cost is where the difference lies I think. You can get more bodies/wounds in your list with cheaper characters.
Is anyone considering using an armiger? I usually have a ven dread with lascannon/fist/hvy flame in my list and the knight is only 6 points more. It just seems like more bang for the buck but I've been very wrong before.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Is anyone considering using an armiger? I usually have a ven dread with lascannon/fist/hvy flame in my list and the knight is only 6 points more. It just seems like more bang for the buck but I've been very wrong before.
I have been considering it. Maybe even 3 for 3 extra cp.
Do some math comparing an Armiger to a GMDK, for both damage output and survivability. The the Armiger provides anti-armour, while the GMDK is anti-horde shooting and anti-armour CC.
I think the GMDK will outclass the Armiger in survivability, but I'm not sure on a value-per-point level which is better for damage.
I think that they function very differently. The GMDK has a better invulnerable save 4 (or even3) vs 5 so it should survive longer. But the armiger has speed and an assault weapon that is pretty nasty compared to any of the DK's weapons. The armiger also has a better chance of making it into melee due to its speed. I'm planning on having 1 of each in my list. The GMDK for mass killing and the armiger for going after vehicles (and maybe big characters).
Elric Greywolf wrote: Do some math comparing an Armiger to a GMDK, for both damage output and survivability. The the Armiger provides anti-armour, while the GMDK is anti-horde shooting and anti-armour CC.
I think the GMDK will outclass the Armiger in survivability, but I'm not sure on a value-per-point level which is better for damage.
That t7 3+ 5++ on the armigers isn't going to go far, it doesn't have enough wounds to tank a lot of fire power. The grandmaster in a dreadknight imo will go farther with that 2+ 3++ . He has more swings and a better all around unit. Granted, an armigers can boost to a 4++ with strategm.
Further, the grey Knight has psychic powers and can be targeted by other grey knights. He can teleport out of tarpits, improve to a 3++, hammer hand as needed. Makes him a bit more versatile.
Can the armigers walk out of combat like their big brother? I didn't see super heavy on their rules. That would also reduce them to hitting on 4+ when they move... And they should be moving. Also, no stomp? Rough. Guardsmen can tie this guy up.
The Grand Master has more attacks, hitting 97% vs 66% in close combat. With the sword he has 1d6 damage (avg 3.5) vs a flat 3. GM has str 9 with a sword, vs str 12.. which matters only against t5 t6 and t9, but hammer hand from a nearby friend can negate that if it bothers you, and make him better against t7 and t8.
The armigers thermal spear will on avg get 2 shots, hitting once. A Grand Master with psilencers and psycsnnon can keep up with that against armor, and be versatile against horde.
I honestly think the GM is better in almost every way. Armigers have some blaring issues. But they do make up for it in speed... That said the GM can teleport strike to avoid the first turn without buffs and get into combat half the time.
Look armigers suck. The best way to explain why is like this.
For literally half the cost of a errant you...
-Lose T8 to T7 so autocannons actually wreck you.
-Lose Superheavy Walker(So you cannot walk out of combat and lose -1 BS on the Heavy Stubber and probably forthcoming carapace weapons when moving)
-Lose Titanic Feet
-Lose guaranteed 6 damage on melee for 3 damage
-Lose 6 inches on the Thermal gun
-Lose the Thermal Cannon special rule that actually scales with number of models in a unit making it have potentially have D6 shots.
-Lose 1 LD (honestly don't care)
-Lose 2 strength (Which... maaaaybe might matter against future spells)
-Gain 2 inches of movement
-Gain assault on your Thermal gun rather than heavy
-Gain the ability to take these in vehicle squads in the superheavy slot
Misc.
-Your explosion is a set range of 6 inches rather than 2D6 inches and does D3 mortal rather than D6 mortal wounds
-Degrade in 6 wounds rather than 12 and from that moment on you are only 1 inch faster than an Imperial Knight in the remaining profiles
I honestly would never recommend an armiger to anyone when they could take an Imperial Knight which itself is overcosted but might actually be able to kill more than a 10 man squad of... anything in shooting or melee over 5 turns. If armigers actually get buffed like they should in their codex, they at LEAST need the Superheavy Walker rule so they can walk over infantry bubble wraps and melee the vehicles if the opponent makes that mistake of forgetting that rule.
Anyone has tried Sisters of Battle as allies? What your impression?
I just acquired a Sister lot really cheap (wasn't planning to get them but it was a price I couldn't refuse) and after checking their rules I have been thinking of fielding a outrider detachment as allies with Celestine as HQ and 3x Dominions on immolators.
I haven't tried yet (missing the immolators ) but in theory they should complement GK nice, Dominions in immolators get a free move+d6 before the game starts, since the immolator flamer has assault they complement the initial GK deepstrike hit by being able to alpha strike without having a deepstrike rule.Celestine can act of faith herself to get an extra movement phase which will allow her to quickly reach the opponents field (Plus in theory she can give an act of faith to an immolator for extra shooting or movement)
In my case a GMDK, Draigo, 4xStrike squads + Celestine and 3x immolators+full of Dominions on your field in the first turn seems like a scary prospect.
The only problem I see with this list is the lack of ranged anti-armor in it, I will only have the GMDK and Dominions with meltas to crack it. What you think?
Index Sisters are probably the best index Army in the game, as they truly can wreck face by basically being cheaper Marines. They have always synergized well with GK. Unfortunately, just like GK, Sisters are probably better off without non-Sister units. But, if you do go Sisters, then you can go all Deep Strike GK which is pretty nice.
Quickjager wrote: I made a list trying to leverage the Chaplain. It is just too hard with the limit of half our army not being able to deepstrike. His best feature is complete rerolls in melee, so if you spam PAGK with falchions it is nice.
Do you want just melee rerolls? The GMDK gives rerolls on 1 for everything has a bigger base so the aura is bigger, is much more durable and deadly, but it is twice as expensive. Or you know, just take Draigo who can hide.
Chaplain is purely a budget option I feel. I mean we ARE scrapping points, but its a points question of whether we want to field one more unit, if we don't scrap for that extra squad, we get 110 points to mess with all of a sudden. Which is pretty much the difference between Draigo and a Chaplain. Or we can go even more budget and take Voldus who is pretty cheap.
It is really hard to justify just melee rerolls with how we do so much work with stormbolters.
Actually I would argue the Chaplain has synergy more with a Paladin-heavy list than with a PAGK list.
PAGK-spam lists derive their damage efficiency much more heavily from storm bolter fire, so you'll want them to have Draigo or GM auras.
Paladin damage efficiency is weighted more heavily toward the Fight phase. Here the Chaplain is suited best as cheap force multiplier.
Really, though, the best force multiplier for Paladin-heavy armies is an Ancient. Too bad he's not an HQ.
I run Paladin heavy lists only and I was just contemplating this very thing. While I find they do damage with storm bolters they tend to do much more damage in combat and the idea of a chaplain for as cheap as they are is intriguing.
I have an ancient sitting waiting to be painted but still haven't put him on the table. Do you think giving him fury of deimos is worth it since he will likely take my apothecary spot? Or is the banner the best option for him?
Did the maths. Armiger is really just worse than the GMDK in every way. I even did it in a way that would slightly favor the Armiger in survivability it still lost by a lot to the GMDK and it really wasn't better than the GMDK offensively either. It damaged good armor saves better when shooting, but for the most part the GMDK pulled ahead in every other way at every wound bracket. Of course the GMDK (kitted how I kit mine) is 50 points more but still... And I never added in the psychic support the GMDK can provide.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Thanks for the effort. Would you mind sharing your data?
It'll be several hours. I'm at work now but when I get home I will. The survivability section will take some translating again as my page is a mess. Expect a full mathhammer post in 8-10 hours.
Not sure if anyone else runs their’s this way, but my GMDKs are almost always S12 anyway cause I give them hammers. 3s re-rolling 1s is still solid and 5 points is worth the guaranteed min 3 dmg and extra AP. So yeah, armigers do nothing for us.
greyknight12 wrote: Not sure if anyone else runs their’s this way, but my GMDKs are almost always S12 anyway cause I give them hammers. 3s re-rolling 1s is still solid and 5 points is worth the guaranteed min 3 dmg and extra AP. So yeah, armigers do nothing for us.
I'm always terrified about imposing a -1 to hit onto myself voluntarily. All of a sudden a Magnus/Mortarion comes along and you're needing 4's to hit him... *pukes*
Agreed though, Armigers don't fill enough of a niche with regards to supporting a GK army. They also aren't points efficient enough to warrant taking in spite of this.
Spartacus wrote: I'm always terrified about imposing a -1 to hit onto myself voluntarily. All of a sudden a Magnus/Mortarion comes along and you're needing 4's to hit him... *pukes*
That’s why I ake more than one, and split the load out swords/hammers. You get the potential of a re-roll on all your hit attempts, and against daemons on all your wound rolls but only the command roll to save you for bad damage. Plus it’s pretty rare to encounter a -1 to hit in CC. Point being though that we can already get the higher strength/dmg weapon the armiger has.
It is quite amusing though as a GK player to look at a unit and say “this is worse than something in my codex” (granted it is our best unit).
Just tried out a list. I liked it. I like to bring in some not-so-used units from time to time in my lists. in this case purgation squads and a champion. I was playing against a guard list with a bunch of russes bubble wrapped by bodies with a vulture with punishers flying around. Nearly had him tabled by turn 4 so we called it (he had 1 damaged russ and a company commander on the field)
Here is what I had - more testing needs to be done, but i felt like i had our weaknesses shored up.
Battalion
dreadknight GM (warlord first to fray) - sword, psilencer psycannon teleporter
Brotherhood champion
I wanted a list where i knew 75% was tried and tested models, but I wanted to try out purgations squads and a champion. These 3 units arrived via storm raven.
The champion did okay. With his stances, he is flexible in combat and 1/2 the price of draigo. With hammerhand + his offensive stance, he wounds on 4+ against russes. not shabby. he put 6 wounds on one russ and ended a company commander (who didn't have anyone left to command). WIth the wounds to the russ and deleting a commander he ALMOST made up his points, but what he really did was tie up the plasma russ in combat for a turn.
The 24 psilencers shots from a purgation squad with +1str-1ap next to a dreadknight put some decent hurt onto some leman russes (now wounding on 5, 4+saves). On avg, they were pulling about 7 wounds off a russ a turn. Or would delete a guard unit pretty easy. I think I will keep this unit for more testing.
The incinerators got a couple rounds of flames off, but likely only made up 1/2 their points. against a less static army, they would be useless. Not sure if I want to bring them again.
The true hero of the day was my stormraven. It deleted a plasma tank commander first turn and deleted a guardsmen unit+heavily damaging a russ a turn for the rest of the game. A storm raven in that configuration shores up a lot of our weakness, but at the same time is a huge point sink and is a massive target. But it also ferried my purgation squads into a favorable position.
I just used a GMDK for the first time last night against guard. Man that thing is deadly.
With the stratagem and some really good rolling with rerolls from Draigo it managed to one round a Leman Russ with shooting then charge and blow up a hellhound with his hammer. This was after draigo and 6 paladins erased a guard squad bubble wrapping the tanks.
After having sanctuary cast on him he then survived a leman russ demolisher, exectuioner, hellhound, 6 lascannons, 6 Las guns and a plasma gun escaping with only taking a single wound.
Now I know this is exceptionally above average rolling but it was fantastic.
Also played with a stormhawk interceptor and it proceeded to delete a squad of snipers on turn 1 and a lascannon heavy weapon squad turn 2.
Lol. Yea. I will never run more than 1 because I'm not into army lists like those but it definitely has a found a relatively permanent spot in my army moving forward.
Yeah, I don't like multiples myself in fluffy games. Doesn't make sense for like 5 grandmaster to take dreadknights and they are the only grey knights to arrive.
I could forge the narrative for that, but who wants to fight 5 gmdk? Maybe khorne...
TheMostWize wrote: I just used a GMDK for the first time last night against guard. Man that thing is deadly.
With the stratagem and some really good rolling with rerolls from Draigo it managed to one round a Leman Russ with shooting then charge and blow up a hellhound with his hammer. This was after draigo and 6 paladins erased a guard squad bubble wrapping the tanks.
After having sanctuary cast on him he then survived a leman russ demolisher, exectuioner, hellhound, 6 lascannons, 6 Las guns and a plasma gun escaping with only taking a single wound.
Now I know this is exceptionally above average rolling but it was fantastic.
Also played with a stormhawk interceptor and it proceeded to delete a squad of snipers on turn 1 and a lascannon heavy weapon squad turn 2.
Draigo shouldn't have affected his rerolls BTW, the GMDK gives himself rerolls of one and he hits on 2+.
Note if you take the -1 to hit because of moving on your heavy weapons, you can't reroll the 2's using Draigos aura due to the way the rules work.
I have been sneaking Draigo back into my lists more and more often lately. While he doesn't give the same hitting power as just taking another GMDK, he makes your other shooting so much more potent, especially if you can get him close to your flyers. 2 Stormravens flying around with Draigo gated next to them absolutely wrecks anything.
TheMostWize wrote: I just used a GMDK for the first time last night against guard. Man that thing is deadly.
With the stratagem and some really good rolling with rerolls from Draigo it managed to one round a Leman Russ with shooting then charge and blow up a hellhound with his hammer. This was after draigo and 6 paladins erased a guard squad bubble wrapping the tanks.
After having sanctuary cast on him he then survived a leman russ demolisher, exectuioner, hellhound, 6 lascannons, 6 Las guns and a plasma gun escaping with only taking a single wound.
Now I know this is exceptionally above average rolling but it was fantastic.
Also played with a stormhawk interceptor and it proceeded to delete a squad of snipers on turn 1 and a lascannon heavy weapon squad turn 2.
Draigo shouldn't have affected his rerolls BTW, the GMDK gives himself rerolls of one and he hits on 2+.
Note if you take the -1 to hit because of moving on your heavy weapons, you can't reroll the 2's using Draigos aura due to the way the rules work.
I have been sneaking Draigo back into my lists more and more often lately. While he doesn't give the same hitting power as just taking another GMDK, he makes your other shooting so much more potent, especially if you can get him close to your flyers. 2 Stormravens flying around with Draigo gated next to them absolutely wrecks anything.
How does draigo's rule 'chapter Master' not work? It reads "reroll failed hit rolls for friendly grey Knight units within 6 inches". A Grand Master is a grey Knight, and if it failed to hit within 6 inches, then he rerolls. It's not dependent on a hit modifier.
GMDKs have a BS and WS of 2+, and an aura that enables them to re-roll 1s. Therefore Draigo’s aura is redundant for them, since a GMDK can be the source of his own re-roll.
For modifiers, they are applied AFTER any rerolls. So prior to the -1 for moving with a heavy weapon is applied, a natural “2” is a successful hit, so you can’t re-roll it. After re-rolling the natural misses (just 1s in this case), you would apply the -1 modifier to all dice results (therefore discarding any 1s remaining after the reroll and any 2s). It’s a fairly major change from 7th, and one of the reasons why -1 to hit auras/abilities are an even bigger deal.
Greetings Daemonhunters: I played in a GT this past weekend and thought I'd share my experiences.
I'm in Denver and we have a very competitive tournament scene. There are a few "jump on the bandwagon" players who are always taking the newest, neatest thing, and quite a lot of "I've played this army for 10 years and I've very good with it" players.
A few weeks ago I took almost this list to the "prep for GT" RTT tournament. I got third at that one. I made a few small alterations and took the same list to the GT, and I got second. (I unfortunately didn't get to play either of the GT players who were at the top table.)
Disclaimer: I play almost exclusively in an ITC format. Those house rules have effected some of my choices.
I disagree with some of the other GK posters I've seen here that GK are best on their own. They definitely need support, and I think I've found a pretty good combination.
The GK provide the heavy hitting I need to clear units. The Guard provide cheap bodies to babysit backfield objectives, as well as extra CP and regenerating CP--which I need because my GK DEVOUR command points. The Inquisition and Assassins are purely disruptive forces, and do far more in their support roles than they ever do in direct damage.
I won't go over the GK list choices except for the weird Raven loadout, and it is strictly for saving points. I'd rather have the multimelta and assault cannon, but I can't afford both those, and I still wanted anti-tank, so bolter and las it is! The upside to this choice is that Psybolts is now a decent option. The THB wounds xenos and guard on 2+, and the -1 hurribolts negates infantry's cover.
The Guard are obviously as cheap as can be. I pay for the mortars so that the ITC secondary "Reaper" isn't available against me (score a point for killing a unit with ten models). I take Moridan so that they are less susceptible to morale, and so that they get a little overwatch (because they nearly always get charged).
I was struggling a lot in competitive matchups. I tried a Shadowsword and didn't like it. I tried Dark Angels Plasma Spearhead and didn't like it. I couldn't find what I was missing.
Well, turns out I was missing Assassins! The Callidus is excellent at anti-character. She does mortal wounds in shooting and ignores the invuln that characters always have. Her biggest downside is a 1D weapon. Her biggest upside is that on a 4+ she makes the enemy spend an extra command point for every first-turn stratagem they play! It's insanely power, and both demoralizes my opponent and also prevents them from doing anything tricky after turn 2. Use a reroll when she deploys to make sure that you're maximum 7in away from your charge target.
The Culexus neg, combined with the innate GK +1, makes it nearly impossible for my opponent to deny my powers, and makes it incredibly easier for me to deny the enemy. He has done nearly zero damage in all my games, but he soaks quite a bit of firepower whenever anyone shoots him, and every Eldar player is absolutely frustrated. They play AROUND the 18" bubble, letting me control the flow of the battle much easier.
I think I have a pretty hard counter in Tau. All my anti-big is in close combat, and they LOOOOOVE when I charge. They also have a very nasty Crisis Bomb build that kills both my GMDKs in one turn, and there's really no stopping it.
Psychic powers GMDK with Sanctuary
GMDK with Gate
Draigo with Purge Soul and Astral Aim
Strike Squads with Vortex, Hammerhand, and Sanctuary.
GKI with Vortex or Hammerhand, depending on what the enemy has and how they've deployed to deny my deep striking
The Inquisitor takes "Terrify" so that I can charge a superheavy if I want to. It also combos well with Purge Soul
Deployment strategy The Aquila Commander first. This way I can capture enemy command points during deployment.
All my definite reserves: GMDK (Sanctuary), Draigo, Strike Squad (Vortex), Callidus, Culexus
Drop 2nd Commander and Infantry Squads, surrounding my two Commanders
GKI go onto the table if I need some more bodies to deny 1st turn charges, otherwise into reserve
GMDK (Gate) on the table, behind scenery. This is so that both GMDKs can have a 3++ T1. It also deters enemy deep strike...because who wants to come in next to a GMDK??
Raven usually on back table edge to avoid first turn fire. Inquisitor and Acolyte go in Raven
If I can finish deploying first, then I put two GKSS into the Raven. Otherwise, I put one in (Sanctuary) and one in deep strike (Hammerhand).
I have a total of 17 units, and I can get down to 13 drops. Surprisingly, this usually lets me finish first. I usually finish after Eldar, because they're always taking Serpents and Starweavers that can fit multiple units inside. I played a guy who has 20 units and 10 drops O_o
LIFE LESSON: Don't be too aggressive with your Raven transport. I have driven it too deep into enemy lines, only to have it completely surrounded, explode, and lost all my models except two. It's devastating. Remember that the enemy's schlubs can advance, give up their shooting, and consider it a worthwhile trade to kill the PAGK inside the transport.
Grand Tournament Matches
Spoiler:
First round, which I lost, was against Tau. Nothing too fancy, but this was my first time fighting the new book, and it didn't go well. We had a low-terrain table, which worked well for a static gunline, and less well for me, because I failed about six charges on T1 when I dropped in. A Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Broadsides, tonnes of drones, and several Commanders were enough to clear me out. Sad day.
Second round was against Eldar. It had 16 Reapers, a Flyer, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent, one Fire Prism, a Wraithlord. It wasn't optimized, and I managed to table him. The best/worst part of the game was when a Reaper unit and the Fire Dragons (supported by an Autarch) emerged from the Webway. The Reapers shot at Guardsmen (yay I'm winning), and the 7 Dragons hit a GMDK, doing ZERO damage to my 3++. I mopped up after that.
Third round was against Dark Angels Devastators and Ravenwing, supported by some Guard. He deployed very defensively and got T1, so his Devastators were all out of range and LoS. His Flyer tore up most of my GKI and a Guard squad. My T1, I deep struck aggressively, but stayed more than 12" away from all the plasma, so that he couldn't Auspex Scan any of my stuff. I got a Vortex onto the Darkshroud in his backfield, which chained into three other units and did a good amount of damage. My backfield GMDK stayed put and shot down the Flyer by himself (yes, some impressive rolling combined well with Psychic Onslaught). My other GMDK and the Raven tore up some Devastators, and then got a charge into some guardsmen. Draigo dropped by the Raven for it to reroll and received a charge of Black Knights. He survived and managed to wipe them out himself!
I had a great game, but there was a point when my opponent became very demoralized and a bit salty, I think because of how well I dismantled his castle. Didn't mange to table him before the end of the game (we got through 6 turns), but all he had left was a few Guardsmen and an Apothecary.
Fourth round was against Eldar again. I've played this guy before, and for the past about 6 games I've lost badly to him every time, so I had zero hopes of winning. He has a foot Autarch, Bike Autarch, Farseer, Spiritseer, three Rangers, three Reapers (3/3/8), Shining Spears, Hemlock, Dire Avengers, two Wave Serpents, Troupe Master, Troupe (fusion pistols), Starweaver. He got T1 and his reaper blob didn't do anything! T2 I was extremely aggressive (GK modus operandi) and I took advantage of him misreading his rules. Eldar Interceptor has to be declared immediately when a unit arrives, not at the end of the phase, so he skipped my GMDK and assassins and had to kill a lowly Strike Squad. It actually was a good choice for him, because that squad had Astral Aim, so the Raven now couldn't ignore cover.
But I didn't need Astral Aim, and the Raven with buffguns and rerolls killed the Reaper blob. I got the Wave Serpent down to 1 wound in shooting and psychic. GMDK and Callidus charged it and the Skyrunner; Culexus and Draigo charged some Rangers. There was an insane two turns of melee wherein I lost a GMDK and a Strike Squad, and he lost all the Harlies, the Dire Avengers, all the Rangers, and all his characters. His Spears and Hemlock were in my backfield killing Guardsmen and GKI. GMDK teleported and killed the Spears. I ignored the Flyer the entire game, except for some potshots with bolters when there wasn't a better target. We ended the game when He had a Wave Serpent (three wounds left) and a Hemlock still on the board. (I let him have Linebreaker for points). It was a pretty silly looking table at the end, because there was a single forest that had two Assassins, Draigo, and an Inquisitor all holed up. I imagine the conversations in that forest were both awkward and enlightening.
I lost all the Guardsmen over three successive turns, but it was worth it because I kept gaining Objective points (a bonus point per turn was hold three objectives with three characters, which I sacrificed my guys to get, and it was worth it).
LIFE LESSON: Sometimes dying for the Imperium really is the best thing you can do!
Fifth round was against...ugh Eldar AGAIN. This was an interesting game because the table had Infinity terrain, so there were several very tall and big-footprint buildings. This guy had Spiritseer, foot Autarch, Farseer, Wave Serpent, 6 Fire Dragons (in Serpent), 5 Hawks, two units of Rangers, one 20-man Guardian blob, 6 Wraithguardcannons, two Hemlocks, and a Crimson Hunter Exarch. He put the Guardians, the Wraiths, the Farseer, and the Hawks in reserve.
I got first turn, and I moved EVERYTHING up into the middle of the field. The Callidus killed the Spiritseer, the Raven and a GMDK killed the Serpent, Strikers killed some Rangers. It wasn't a very eventful first turn...but it swung the tide, I think. My Culexus was directly on the center of the board to maximize his bubble. Killing the Serpent meant his Dragons were immobile, and set up to receive a charge next turn. I cleared out one of his two objectives, giving me the edge on points from the getgo.
For his counterattack, he positioned both Hemlocks to shoot the Culexus (because autohits would kill him)...but he forgot that you can't target characters. So BOTH of them were inside the neg bubble, and BOTH of them ended up wasting their shots on 3++ GMDKs. Huge tactical error on his part. He failed both his Hemlock powers, due to me being at essentially a +3 deny. The angry Fire Dragons nuked my Raven, but it had done its job IMO. All his Deep Strikes came down near my priority objective (worth more for holding), and they managed to do...not a whole lot, actually. Guardians+Hawks didn't kill either of the two Guard units they shot at (one of them with a 3+ save for "Take Cover" in a ruin), and I made some great morale rolls. Wraiths did 4 wounds to a GMDK.
In my T2, I figuratively mopped up the backfield (through psychic, shooting, and assault I killed Rangers, Dragons, and Autarch, and got onto his priority objective. I shot Guardians (which are stupidly resilient with a 4++ stratagem) and Hawks and moved the Culexus to nerf his Farseer. I set up both GMDKs, a Strike Squad, and the Culexus to charge his Webway blob.
His T2, he finished off all the Guard units with a combination of Guardians and Flyers. Hemlocks are decent at character sniping because they can move so fast.
My T3, I charged the Wraiths, the Guardians, and the two remaining Hawks with two GMDKs and a GKSS, while the Culexus sprained his ankle climbing down a building. Callidus hid behind a building. Draigo advanced because he had so effectively murdered his side of the board that nothing was anywhere near him to either shoot or charge. The two Hawks died and the GMDK piled into the Guardians. The Farseer ran away from the Culexus.
His T3 he fell back with the Wraith, killed the wounded GMDK in shooting (bc of COURSE Eldar can fall back and shoot innately!), and Hemlocked the Callidus. The GMDK wiped the Guardians.
My T4, I shot the Farseer to death and charged the 3 remaining Wraiths with a Culexus, a full GMDK, and a GKSS. We called it at the end of the Charge phase.
Throughout this game, I ignored the Flyers. I think I gave a total of five wound to the three of them. They killed most of my Guard and did some wounds to the Raven, but overall weren't that great. And because of how Flyer role works, I essentially only had to kill 1400pts of models in order to table him.
LIFE LESSON: If the enemy has a lot of points in Flyers, ignore the Flyers completely and go for the tabling. It works.
Overall I'm very pleased with the performance of my list. It still seriously lacks anti-tank. I'd like to see how I'd do against some other lists I didn't face, such as 4 Lemen Russes, or double Stormsurge.
So have heart, Titanians! Grey Knights are viable! Remember your roots and bring the Inquisition!
I've always vouched for 1 or 2 Stormravens, they add so much to a GK list. After the points hike for assault cannons, lascannons seem the obvious choice to me, especially for GK.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Greetings Daemonhunters: I played in a GT this past weekend and thought I'd share my experiences.
I'm in Denver and we have a very competitive tournament scene. There are a few "jump on the bandwagon" players who are always taking the newest, neatest thing, and quite a lot of "I've played this army for 10 years and I've very good with it" players.
A few weeks ago I took almost this list to the "prep for GT" RTT tournament. I got third at that one. I made a few small alterations and took the same list to the GT, and I got second. (I unfortunately didn't get to play either of the GT players who were at the top table.)
Disclaimer: I play almost exclusively in an ITC format. Those house rules have effected some of my choices.
I disagree with some of the other GK posters I've seen here that GK are best on their own. They definitely need support, and I think I've found a pretty good combination.
The GK provide the heavy hitting I need to clear units. The Guard provide cheap bodies to babysit backfield objectives, as well as extra CP and regenerating CP--which I need because my GK DEVOUR command points. The Inquisition and Assassins are purely disruptive forces, and do far more in their support roles than they ever do in direct damage.
I won't go over the GK list choices except for the weird Raven loadout, and it is strictly for saving points. I'd rather have the multimelta and assault cannon, but I can't afford both those, and I still wanted anti-tank, so bolter and las it is! The upside to this choice is that Psybolts is now a decent option. The THB wounds xenos and guard on 2+, and the -1 hurribolts negates infantry's cover.
The Guard are obviously as cheap as can be. I pay for the mortars so that the ITC secondary "Reaper" isn't available against me (score a point for killing a unit with ten models). I take Moridan so that they are less susceptible to morale, and so that they get a little overwatch (because they nearly always get charged).
I was struggling a lot in competitive matchups. I tried a Shadowsword and didn't like it. I tried Dark Angels Plasma Spearhead and didn't like it. I couldn't find what I was missing.
Well, turns out I was missing Assassins! The Callidus is excellent at anti-character. She does mortal wounds in shooting and ignores the invuln that characters always have. Her biggest downside is a 1D weapon. Her biggest upside is that on a 4+ she makes the enemy spend an extra command point for every first-turn stratagem they play! It's insanely power, and both demoralizes my opponent and also prevents them from doing anything tricky after turn 2. Use a reroll when she deploys to make sure that you're maximum 7in away from your charge target.
The Culexus neg, combined with the innate GK +1, makes it nearly impossible for my opponent to deny my powers, and makes it incredibly easier for me to deny the enemy. He has done nearly zero damage in all my games, but he soaks quite a bit of firepower whenever anyone shoots him, and every Eldar player is absolutely frustrated. They play AROUND the 18" bubble, letting me control the flow of the battle much easier.
I think I have a pretty hard counter in Tau. All my anti-big is in close combat, and they LOOOOOVE when I charge. They also have a very nasty Crisis Bomb build that kills both my GMDKs in one turn, and there's really no stopping it.
Psychic powers GMDK with Sanctuary
GMDK with Gate
Draigo with Purge Soul and Astral Aim
Strike Squads with Vortex, Hammerhand, and Sanctuary.
GKI with Vortex or Hammerhand, depending on what the enemy has and how they've deployed to deny my deep striking
The Inquisitor takes "Terrify" so that I can charge a superheavy if I want to. It also combos well with Purge Soul
Deployment strategy The Aquila Commander first. This way I can capture enemy command points during deployment.
All my definite reserves: GMDK (Sanctuary), Draigo, Strike Squad (Vortex), Callidus, Culexus
Drop 2nd Commander and Infantry Squads, surrounding my two Commanders
GKI go onto the table if I need some more bodies to deny 1st turn charges, otherwise into reserve
GMDK (Gate) on the table, behind scenery. This is so that both GMDKs can have a 3++ T1. It also deters enemy deep strike...because who wants to come in next to a GMDK??
Raven usually on back table edge to avoid first turn fire. Inquisitor and Acolyte go in Raven
If I can finish deploying first, then I put two GKSS into the Raven. Otherwise, I put one in (Sanctuary) and one in deep strike (Hammerhand).
I have a total of 17 units, and I can get down to 13 drops. Surprisingly, this usually lets me finish first. I usually finish after Eldar, because they're always taking Serpents and Starweavers that can fit multiple units inside. I played a guy who has 20 units and 10 drops O_o
LIFE LESSON: Don't be too aggressive with your Raven transport. I have driven it too deep into enemy lines, only to have it completely surrounded, explode, and lost all my models except two. It's devastating. Remember that the enemy's schlubs can advance, give up their shooting, and consider it a worthwhile trade to kill the PAGK inside the transport.
Grand Tournament Matches
Spoiler:
First round, which I lost, was against Tau. Nothing too fancy, but this was my first time fighting the new book, and it didn't go well. We had a low-terrain table, which worked well for a static gunline, and less well for me, because I failed about six charges on T1 when I dropped in. A Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Broadsides, tonnes of drones, and several Commanders were enough to clear me out. Sad day.
Second round was against Eldar. It had 16 Reapers, a Flyer, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent, one Fire Prism, a Wraithlord. It wasn't optimized, and I managed to table him. The best/worst part of the game was when a Reaper unit and the Fire Dragons (supported by an Autarch) emerged from the Webway. The Reapers shot at Guardsmen (yay I'm winning), and the 7 Dragons hit a GMDK, doing ZERO damage to my 3++. I mopped up after that.
Third round was against Dark Angels Devastators and Ravenwing, supported by some Guard. He deployed very defensively and got T1, so his Devastators were all out of range and LoS. His Flyer tore up most of my GKI and a Guard squad. My T1, I deep struck aggressively, but stayed more than 12" away from all the plasma, so that he couldn't Auspex Scan any of my stuff. I got a Vortex onto the Darkshroud in his backfield, which chained into three other units and did a good amount of damage. My backfield GMDK stayed put and shot down the Flyer by himself (yes, some impressive rolling combined well with Psychic Onslaught). My other GMDK and the Raven tore up some Devastators, and then got a charge into some guardsmen. Draigo dropped by the Raven for it to reroll and received a charge of Black Knights. He survived and managed to wipe them out himself!
I had a great game, but there was a point when my opponent became very demoralized and a bit salty, I think because of how well I dismantled his castle. Didn't mange to table him before the end of the game (we got through 6 turns), but all he had left was a few Guardsmen and an Apothecary.
Fourth round was against Eldar again. I've played this guy before, and for the past about 6 games I've lost badly to him every time, so I had zero hopes of winning. He has a foot Autarch, Bike Autarch, Farseer, Spiritseer, three Rangers, three Reapers (3/3/8), Shining Spears, Hemlock, Dire Avengers, two Wave Serpents, Troupe Master, Troupe (fusion pistols), Starweaver. He got T1 and his reaper blob didn't do anything! T2 I was extremely aggressive (GK modus operandi) and I took advantage of him misreading his rules. Eldar Interceptor has to be declared immediately when a unit arrives, not at the end of the phase, so he skipped my GMDK and assassins and had to kill a lowly Strike Squad. It actually was a good choice for him, because that squad had Astral Aim, so the Raven now couldn't ignore cover.
But I didn't need Astral Aim, and the Raven with buffguns and rerolls killed the Reaper blob. I got the Wave Serpent down to 1 wound in shooting and psychic. GMDK and Callidus charged it and the Skyrunner; Culexus and Draigo charged some Rangers. There was an insane two turns of melee wherein I lost a GMDK and a Strike Squad, and he lost all the Harlies, the Dire Avengers, all the Rangers, and all his characters. His Spears and Hemlock were in my backfield killing Guardsmen and GKI. GMDK teleported and killed the Spears. I ignored the Flyer the entire game, except for some potshots with bolters when there wasn't a better target. We ended the game when He had a Wave Serpent (three wounds left) and a Hemlock still on the board. (I let him have Linebreaker for points). It was a pretty silly looking table at the end, because there was a single forest that had two Assassins, Draigo, and an Inquisitor all holed up. I imagine the conversations in that forest were both awkward and enlightening.
I lost all the Guardsmen over three successive turns, but it was worth it because I kept gaining Objective points (a bonus point per turn was hold three objectives with three characters, which I sacrificed my guys to get, and it was worth it).
LIFE LESSON: Sometimes dying for the Imperium really is the best thing you can do!
Fifth round was against...ugh Eldar AGAIN. This was an interesting game because the table had Infinity terrain, so there were several very tall and big-footprint buildings. This guy had Spiritseer, foot Autarch, Farseer, Wave Serpent, 6 Fire Dragons (in Serpent), 5 Hawks, two units of Rangers, one 20-man Guardian blob, 6 Wraithguardcannons, two Hemlocks, and a Crimson Hunter Exarch. He put the Guardians, the Wraiths, the Farseer, and the Hawks in reserve.
I got first turn, and I moved EVERYTHING up into the middle of the field. The Callidus killed the Spiritseer, the Raven and a GMDK killed the Serpent, Strikers killed some Rangers. It wasn't a very eventful first turn...but it swung the tide, I think. My Culexus was directly on the center of the board to maximize his bubble. Killing the Serpent meant his Dragons were immobile, and set up to receive a charge next turn. I cleared out one of his two objectives, giving me the edge on points from the getgo.
For his counterattack, he positioned both Hemlocks to shoot the Culexus (because autohits would kill him)...but he forgot that you can't target characters. So BOTH of them were inside the neg bubble, and BOTH of them ended up wasting their shots on 3++ GMDKs. Huge tactical error on his part. He failed both his Hemlock powers, due to me being at essentially a +3 deny. The angry Fire Dragons nuked my Raven, but it had done its job IMO. All his Deep Strikes came down near my priority objective (worth more for holding), and they managed to do...not a whole lot, actually. Guardians+Hawks didn't kill either of the two Guard units they shot at (one of them with a 3+ save for "Take Cover" in a ruin), and I made some great morale rolls. Wraiths did 4 wounds to a GMDK.
In my T2, I figuratively mopped up the backfield (through psychic, shooting, and assault I killed Rangers, Dragons, and Autarch, and got onto his priority objective. I shot Guardians (which are stupidly resilient with a 4++ stratagem) and Hawks and moved the Culexus to nerf his Farseer. I set up both GMDKs, a Strike Squad, and the Culexus to charge his Webway blob.
His T2, he finished off all the Guard units with a combination of Guardians and Flyers. Hemlocks are decent at character sniping because they can move so fast.
My T3, I charged the Wraiths, the Guardians, and the two remaining Hawks with two GMDKs and a GKSS, while the Culexus sprained his ankle climbing down a building. Callidus hid behind a building. Draigo advanced because he had so effectively murdered his side of the board that nothing was anywhere near him to either shoot or charge. The two Hawks died and the GMDK piled into the Guardians. The Farseer ran away from the Culexus.
His T3 he fell back with the Wraith, killed the wounded GMDK in shooting (bc of COURSE Eldar can fall back and shoot innately!), and Hemlocked the Callidus. The GMDK wiped the Guardians.
My T4, I shot the Farseer to death and charged the 3 remaining Wraiths with a Culexus, a full GMDK, and a GKSS. We called it at the end of the Charge phase.
Throughout this game, I ignored the Flyers. I think I gave a total of five wound to the three of them. They killed most of my Guard and did some wounds to the Raven, but overall weren't that great. And because of how Flyer role works, I essentially only had to kill 1400pts of models in order to table him.
LIFE LESSON: If the enemy has a lot of points in Flyers, ignore the Flyers completely and go for the tabling. It works.
Overall I'm very pleased with the performance of my list. It still seriously lacks anti-tank. I'd like to see how I'd do against some other lists I didn't face, such as 4 Lemen Russes, or double Stormsurge.
So have heart, Titanians! Grey Knights are viable! Remember your roots and bring the Inquisition!
I keep gravitating toward something similar. Hadnt tried with the Inquisition/assassin's before. Might give that a go. I like that idea. Can scare the hell out of a lot of psychic reliant lists and shut down key units, if just for a turn or two. But I agree, Tau would likely be pretty unimpressed but everyone showing up. Stupid Tau.
I've been running guard with my knights lately to ensure they have the commpand points available. Most opponenets I play usually have about 10 command points. With the guard relic and warlord trait, plus the 10 you already have, you can really count on having 15-18 CP a game. Glory be to the emperor with all that psychic ammo, extra attacks upon death, ensuring vortex is cast, etc etc. I like it.
I agree that Guard with GK is the most viable, but I'd really like to run my list without that. That being said I was a huge fan of inquisition last edition and I'm wanting to make a really fluffy inquisition list, with inquisition, storm troopers, and sisters of battle. Also sorry I've been unable to post the math. I got home to realize it was thrown away and haven't got around to redoing it.
Astra militarum
2x company commander kurovs Aquila and warlord grand strategist
3x infantry squad (I recently adopted the mortar hwt from the post above for the reasons above)
Super heavy
Imperial knight Crusader Gatling, thermal cannon, and melta gun
It's been pretty mean, plays quick, and hit hard and fast. Thoughts on improvement? I really like that imperial Knight. I really took my time painting it and really want it to hit a tournament.
I have a little question which was probably discussed earlier in this thread but it is impossible to read through all 48 pages . When we use "Heed the Prognosticars" stratagem, can it be used on a character that in not currently on board? Namely on the GMNDK waiting in the reserve to teleport to the battlefield?
Astra militarum
2x company commander kurovs Aquila and warlord grand strategist
3x infantry squad (I recently adopted the mortar hwt from the post above for the reasons above)
Super heavy
Imperial knight Crusader Gatling, thermal cannon, and melta gun
It's been pretty mean, plays quick, and hit hard and fast. Thoughts on improvement? I really like that imperial Knight. I really took my time painting it and really want it to hit a tournament.
Do tell me how the knight fares, been thinking of selling some warmachine stuff laying around since the local meta is dead and buy a LoW with them for my army, being the Crusader one of my prime choices.
I have a little question which was probably discussed earlier in this thread but it is impossible to read through all 48 pages . When we use "Heed the Prognosticars" stratagem, can it be used on a character that in not currently on board? Namely on the GMNDK waiting in the reserve to teleport to the battlefield?
Thanks in advance.
So far only been using it once it hit's the board (no deepstriking GMDK with Heed and Sanctuary on the 1st turn), that said I am not 100% sure, I think it's in a grey area of interpretation.
I have a little question which was probably discussed earlier in this thread but it is impossible to read through all 48 pages . When we use "Heed the Prognosticars" stratagem, can it be used on a character that in not currently on board? Namely on the GMNDK waiting in the reserve to teleport to the battlefield?
Thanks in advance.
There are 2 threads dealing with this issue and it can't be resolved until GW says whether things in reserve are in play or not. The only advice I can give you is if you're going to an event ask the TO before you make your list or at least before the event starts.
Astra militarum
2x company commander kurovs Aquila and warlord grand strategist
3x infantry squad (I recently adopted the mortar hwt from the post above for the reasons above)
Super heavy
Imperial knight Crusader Gatling, thermal cannon, and melta gun
It's been pretty mean, plays quick, and hit hard and fast. Thoughts on improvement? I really like that imperial Knight. I really took my time painting it and really want it to hit a tournament.
Do tell me how the knight fares, been thinking of selling some warmachine stuff laying around since the local meta is dead and buy a LoW with them for my army, being the Crusader one of my prime choices.
I have a little question which was probably discussed earlier in this thread but it is impossible to read through all 48 pages . When we use "Heed the Prognosticars" stratagem, can it be used on a character that in not currently on board? Namely on the GMNDK waiting in the reserve to teleport to the battlefield?
Thanks in advance.
So far only been using it once it hit's the board (no deepstriking GMDK with Heed and Sanctuary on the 1st turn), that said I am not 100% sure, I think it's in a grey area of interpretation.
I've been finding the Knight either attracts all the attention or gets to run rampant. If he is targeted my Grand masters all make it into combat alive. If he doesn't get all the attention, the he stomps around in combat, then walks out, shoots, and stomps around again. With a strategm he has a 4++ against shooting, and with t8 he can stop a fair amount of fire power.
I've been finding the Knight either attracts all the attention or gets to run rampant. If he is targeted my Grand masters all make it into combat alive. If he doesn't get all the attention, the he stomps around in combat, then walks out, shoots, and stomps around again. With a strategm he has a 4++ against shooting, and with t8 he can stop a fair amount of fire power.
Neat.Have you tried other knights loadouts or only the crusader?
I have mine magnetized so switching variants is easy. Not a fan of the battle cannon, and math says it is the least effective gun, and least points efficient. You want a battle cannon? Take a leman Russ.
The avenger Gatling is the best generalist gun, useful against armor and horde. The thermal cannon usually gets 2-3 hits, and typicallally pulls off about 6 wounds v t8 vehicles a turn. Better than the battle cannon. Then you have that turn about once a game where is does like 18 woulds to something.
While the reaper chain sword hits like a truck, it doesn't get past invul saves well, and I find myself using the stomps way more often anyway as I get 12 attacks with stomp on a healthy Knight, which still do considerable damage. In this list I find the crusader does the best work with avenger and thermal.
Another option is to take the warden. You can have similar out put with storm spear. That comes out to be similar in price but you keep the chain sword. I like the warden a lot as well. But I'd rather go forge world and get a castigator as it is basically the warden+. It Moves faster, has more wounds, more shots, heals wounds and that sword looks awesome for not much more in points.
The chain sword DOES scare the begebes out of other big stuff with the str 16 and flat 6dmg. Rips other walkers, tanks and monsters to shreds.
The Thunder Strike Gauntlet is better than the Reaper Chainsword due specifically to how effective Stomps are at the moment. Literal if you can’t harm it with Stomps, you can kill it with the Gauntlet and then throw it for an out of sequence attack. That’s also why the Armiger is worth taking with it’s Thermal Lance, as it can strip wounds on big stuff so the Knight can put it down.
Have always enjoyed running my Errant with my GK, looking forward to running an actual Superheavy Detachment to support my PAGK.
Smotejob wrote: Personally never was a fan of the gauntlet. -1 to hit kind of turns me off about it. Same reason I don't use the DK hammer.
You were already hitting the most dangerous stuff on a 4+ anyway. The degrade table sucks in this regard of course, so you might want to remember that.
With a Brother Captain that'd be usable out of Deep Strike, so that's interesting, but then it's another 1 CP we don't have to spare to deep strike the Purifiers in the first place.
I'm incredibly glad to see Grey Knight rules changes though.
Lanlaorn wrote: With a Brother Captain that'd be usable out of Deep Strike, so that's interesting, but then it's another 1 CP we don't have to spare to deep strike the Purifiers in the first place.
I'm incredibly glad to see Grey Knight rules changes though.
deepstrike smite is something any psyker can do without a brother captain AND they have a chance to do d6 mortals...while you get the middle roll on a d3? Weaksauce.
Zarroc1733 wrote: I don't feel like its good at all. Increased range yeah but only 2 MW instead of d6? That completely kills purifiers for me.
Do you mean you actually found them useful as they are? I agree with Lanlaorn at least it's usable and does double our normal damage.
I have a feeling that this is fake since it doesn't address what happens when used on Daemons. It seems like almost any special rule we have has an extra part dealing with daemons.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't like the D6 change but at least the range is slightly more useful?
Not really. They had a niche use before in loading up in a transport and jumping out right next to their target. Now while yes they can deepstrike with brother captai for 2 MWS are 2 MWs worth their point cost?
Zarroc1733 wrote: I don't feel like its good at all. Increased range yeah but only 2 MW instead of d6? That completely kills purifiers for me.
Do you mean you actually found them useful as they are? I agree with Lanlaorn at least it's usable and does double our normal damage.
I have a feeling that this is fake since it doesn't address what happens when used on Daemons. It seems like almost any special rule we have has an extra part dealing with daemons.
Purifiers never had an extra effect on daemons. (In 8th)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't like the D6 change but at least the range is slightly more useful?
Not really. They had a niche use before in loading up in a transport and jumping out right next to their target. Now while yes they can deepstrike with brother captai for 2 MWS are 2 MWs worth their point cost?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't like the D6 change but at least the range is slightly more useful?
Not really. They had a niche use before in loading up in a transport and jumping out right next to their target. Now while yes they can deepstrike with brother captai for 2 MWS are 2 MWs worth their point cost?
Lanlaorn wrote: I think 2 damage at 6 inches is much better than d6 damage at 3 inches.
It could be 100 damage but if you're never able to get into position to use it, what's the point?
If it was 100 damage you bet your ass I'm building to enable that. That is wiping out a superheavy or primarch which we historically have issues with. 2 damage at 6 inches? Meh don't care.
Yea the 2 dmg at 6 inches is worse in my opinion. And the D6 smite could do well if taking on a large unit in combat.
They really need to bring them back to 2 attacks a piece that would give them a good boost to being playable even if they keep their 3 inch smite 2 attacks would be worth it.
As far as knights go I have always run mine as an Errant with Reaper Chainsword. I have actually never gotten my knight to combat by the time the game ends but in my last game against Chaos it did 16 wounds to a predator on the first shot of the game and obviously blew it up. It eventually was killed by a Land Raider but that left my Paladins and Draigo running free which ended up with Draigo and an Apothecary facerolling Magnus so it was more than worth it. My opponent was so happy he blew up my knight until Magnus died. Then he looked like someone just killed his puppy. It was one of my best friends so needless to say I still make comments about it weeks later haha.
1-3 limit of any non troop unit. Doesn’t affect us as much but it does hurt a couple lists I came up with. Also no souping in matched play. But that sounds wrong so I’m hoping all the rumors are fake.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Couple more terrible rumors. God I hope these are fake.
GMDK up 20 points and purifiers up 2.
Good rumor. Paladins down to 50
Dreadknight Masters needed the price hike, but Purifiers need to go down AND need the extra attack back.
Paladins definitely look more attractive at least
Dreadknight masters do not need a price hike. The only reason they outshine the rest of the codex is they are actually comparably priced with units from other armies, unlike the rest of the codex which is overpriced.
I don't know... I think purifiers should see a price hike. They are far too op. Couple their 1 attack with a worse smite, no teleport strike, and the same equipment as their gkss and you have an amazing unit. Please increase their price.
Honestly, the issue for me is the fact that tac Marines and terminators are to expensive.. and we are loosely based on them.
If you consider points from the SM Codex
Spacemarine + power sword + storm bolter + 1 more point for deep strike = strike squad.
But tac Marines are already considered medicore. In my opinion tac Marines should be 2-3 points cheaper. Then have that reflect with strikes.
IMHO Purifiers needed a points reduction OR a buff to their smite and an additional attack.
If the rumours are true, even with the "buff" to smite range while nerfing damage output, I guess we will never see them again.
That would be nice. But making their smite 6" and same price warrants a brother captain being taken. And multiple d6 smites jumping out a storm raven can be scary. Would love a reason to take a brother captain.
I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.
\
On T2.
With the wording as it is, Gate of Infinity and the Interceptor Shunt both seem to keep you stuck in your deployment zone T1.
@GuardStrider- what makes you think that land raiders are any better now then they were before the FAQ? Also why not consider a bigger raider so that you can take a full strike squad with Draigo?
Elric Greywolf wrote: I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.
\
On T2.
With the wording as it is, Gate of Infinity and the Interceptor Shunt both seem to keep you stuck in your deployment zone T1.
Well the rule says "any unit that arrives on the battlefield on the players first turn", as I interpreted it it, they are already deployed on the battlefield so they can use those abilities as normal.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @GuardStrider- what makes you think that land raiders are any better now then they were before the FAQ? Also why not consider a bigger raider so that you can take a full strike squad with Draigo?
They aren't better but it's the only get around I can think of to have a viable Draigo and make use his innate threat and aura on the 1st turn. So I might give this a chance,since Draigo always been fantastic for me this edition and it's not like LR is completely useless itself. Also forgive my ignorance but I thought all Raiders had the same transport size? Edit: Oh I didn't realize that the other LR variants had more space, sadly the only one I own was bought 2nd hand only with the vanilla loadout.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.
\
On T2.
With the wording as it is, Gate of Infinity and the Interceptor Shunt both seem to keep you stuck in your deployment zone T1.
Well the rule says "any unit that arrives on the battlefield on the players first turn", as I interpreted it it, they are already deployed on the battlefield so they can use those abilities as normal.
Right, but then read the text for GoI and Shunt. You take the unit off the battlefield and then it arrives. Thus, it is arriving on the battlefield on the first turn.
If that affected GoI and shunt then it would be obvious GW has no clue what they are doing. That being said GoI without having the rest of your entire army there in support won't be useful. So you'd have to run interceptors which means once again we dont have many command points.
I actually don't hate it as much as many as I would often wait until T2 to to deepstrike, when my opponents have moved and ruined their deployment to prevent placing DS where I want. That being said... It still sucks.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.
\
On T2.
With the wording as it is, Gate of Infinity and the Interceptor Shunt both seem to keep you stuck in your deployment zone T1.
Well the rule says "any unit that arrives on the battlefield on the players first turn", as I interpreted it it, they are already deployed on the battlefield so they can use those abilities as normal.
Right, but then read the text for GoI and Shunt. You take the unit off the battlefield and then it arrives. Thus, it is arriving on the battlefield on the first turn.
Well fu- you are right, I hate this faq even more, I don't know how to play this army anymore
TheMostWize wrote: If that affected GoI and shunt then it would be obvious GW has no clue what they are doing. That being said GoI without having the rest of your entire army there in support won't be useful. So you'd have to run interceptors which means once again we dont have many command points.
Strategies that effect units coming on to the board from off board work vs GoI and shunt is just a minor variation of GoI. So, GW counts GoI the same as Deep Striking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @GuardStrider - even if you have Draigo in your Land Raider he still can't effect anything until turn 2 since he would be embarked and therefore his aura doesn't come into play. You'd have to wait till the start of turn 2 to get him out of the raider and onto the board.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I think what I'll be doing is switching over to a Outrider of GKI. The loss of CP (moving from a Battalion to an Outrider) isn't as bad as it could be since my other Battalion gets a CP bump.
I'll have to lose some upgrades on things in order to make room for the +20pts to each unit, but I'll still be able to "Deep Strike" on T1.
Except for Draigo, he doesn't seem to have a place in my list now which is sad. Anything he wants to buff will be dead by the time he could get to the field.
I might try to use Draigo in a landraider with a 8 man strike squad which I will gate where needed.
\
On T2.
With the wording as it is, Gate of Infinity and the Interceptor Shunt both seem to keep you stuck in your deployment zone T1.
Well the rule says "any unit that arrives on the battlefield on the players first turn", as I interpreted it it, they are already deployed on the battlefield so they can use those abilities as normal.
Right, but then read the text for GoI and Shunt. You take the unit off the battlefield and then it arrives. Thus, it is arriving on the battlefield on the first turn.
Well fu- you are right, I hate this faq even more, I don't know how to play this army anymore
We're in really bad shape and I don't know either. That makes two of us.
TheMostWize wrote: If that affected GoI and shunt then it would be obvious GW has no clue what they are doing. That being said GoI without having the rest of your entire army there in support won't be useful. So you'd have to run interceptors which means once again we dont have many command points.
Strategies that effect units coming on to the board from off board work vs GoI and shunt is just a minor variation of GoI. So, GW counts GoI the same as Deep Striking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @GuardStrider - even if you have Draigo in your Land Raider he still can't effect anything until turn 2 since he would be embarked and therefore his aura doesn't come into play. You'd have to wait till the start of turn 2 to get him out of the raider and onto the board.
Yea well they could obviously re word the final form of the rule but your point remains.
Strategies that effect units coming on to the board from off board work vs GoI
Where's the FAQ that states this? If this is true, then GW is saying, in a roundabout way, "Gate of Infinity cannot be cast on the first turn."
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would recommend that every single GK player on this thread email GW with their questions regarding Deep Striking and how much it affects our FLUFFY playstyle specifically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @GuardStrider - even if you have Draigo in your Land Raider he still can't effect anything until turn 2 since he would be embarked and therefore his aura doesn't come into play. You'd have to wait till the start of turn 2 to get him out of the raider and onto the board.
Units disembark at the beginning of movement phase, so in theory if you could gate on the 1st turn you would gate in the psychic phase and disembark at the beginning of movement, so they would still use the aura
Unless you're stuck in your deployment zone T1 because GoI is reinforcements. I mean, you could still get Draigo out T2, but why bother putting him in T1 in that case?
Unless you're stuck in your deployment zone T1 because GoI is reinforcements. I mean, you could still get Draigo out T2, but why bother putting him in T1 in that case?
How is GoI reinforcements? If the unit is not set up in tactical reserves, where the rule about DS in T1 lives, but is set up on the board, how does no GoI out of deployment work? I get that the unit is removed from the board and re-set up 9in away from an enemy, has all the smell of a deep strike, but ... It's not in tactical reserves, so I should be able to do what I want with as far as GoI and Shunt go if I placed it on the board before T1 started.
It's shady, and needs a clarification from GW, amongst other things
Edit - I think the intention is to only apply that rule to units that are set up in deep strike reserve / tactical reserves, but the way it's worded is really crappy. The rule lives clearly in the box describing all the rules for tactical reserves but broadly says, "Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)." So it's definitely susceptible to semantics shenanigans. Lame
Sooooo, if I must share a keyword thats not Imperium - I cannot field imperial Knights anymore, can I?
They have thought about Assassins, but forgot about Knights?
Regarding Assassins: there is no way to field a single Assassin anymore. right? will have to be 3 to fill that vanguard detachement.
Yea you would have to field them in a group of 3. Unless you lose the command point and take a single 1.
But if the battle brother rule sticks then you would lose your battle forged benefits as the way I'm understanding the rule so that wouldn't be worth doing anyway.
Aeri wrote: Sooooo, if I must share a keyword thats not Imperium - I cannot field imperial Knights anymore, can I?
They have thought about Assassins, but forgot about Knights?
Regarding Assassins: there is no way to field a single Assassin anymore. right? will have to be 3 to fill that vanguard detachement.
Can't you just field a knight in a Super heavy auxiliary detachment?
Just playing Devil's Advocate here. But isn't there some addition by subtraction going on with the new FAQ?
The beta rules in the new FAQ affect everyone equally. Grey Knights can't deep strike turn one, but neither can your opponent. This affects GKs inordinately because of the lack of long range firepower.
However, you can now add assassins within a Vanguard detachment. Vinidcare assassins shoot 72 inches, can target characters, they hit and wound on a 2+, their weapons are AP-3 / Dd3 and they ignore invulnerable saves.
Sure, an opponent can get into position turn one and lay down some lascannon shots on a Land Raider or a Storm Raven. But we can now get first turn character kills, removing auras before we drop in to cause some damage. Then we can do it again the next turn because they are characters and can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit. With a CP reroll, the odds of getting 5+ wounds each turn is around 90%.
3 Vindicares are not cheap, but wouldn't this be an advantage, deep striking turn 2 against a softer force?
Unless you're stuck in your deployment zone T1 because GoI is reinforcements. I mean, you could still get Draigo out T2, but why bother putting him in T1 in that case?
How is GoI reinforcements? If the unit is not set up in tactical reserves, where the rule about DS in T1 lives, but is set up on the board, how does no GoI out of deployment work? I get that the unit is removed from the board and re-set up 9in away from an enemy, has all the smell of a deep strike, but ... It's not in tactical reserves, so I should be able to do what I want with as far as GoI and Shunt go if I placed it on the board before T1 started.
It's shady, and needs a clarification from GW, amongst other things
Edit - I think the intention is to only apply that rule to units that are set up in deep strike reserve / tactical reserves, but the way it's worded is really crappy. The rule lives clearly in the box describing all the rules for tactical reserves but broadly says, "Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)." So it's definitely susceptible to semantics shenanigans. Lame
Read Reserves carefully in your main rulebook. It specifically provides that it also applies to things that arrive "on the battlefield" during a turn, not just before T1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aeri wrote: No, because the anti soup rule doesnt allow it.
The soup rule applies only to DETACHMENTS not to the whole ARMY.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.
Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.
I'm following the logic like this:
GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.
How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?
That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.
The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.
Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):
REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed
Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.
Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.
I'm following the logic like this:
GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.
How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?
That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.
The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much
I don't disagree with your logic or the apparent absurdity, but, if anyone ever tried to enforce that with me, I would never play against them again.
I'm sure they didn't think this through all the way, which is why it's a beta rule. They are waiting for people to tell them edge cases like this exist.
Aeri wrote: "All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common."
Not my native language, but for me it reads like everything must have the same keyword. Will gladly accept that I'm wrong though!
All of the units in each Detachment
Not my native language too, but I read that as saying that they must have the same keyword inside of the same detachments . So you can't have celestine leading a grey knights detachment, but can have a grey knight detachment and a sisters of battle one with Celestine.
It is totally absurd, which is why I don't think it's right. I think we're gonna be able to use Gate of Infinity and Teleport Shunt to get get right in peoples faces on turn 1 as much as we want. I think the whole "mid-turn" thing is in reference to actual reserves / reinforcements who were deployed as such before T1 arriving later in turns, not stuff on the board already. But, again, we'll see what level of disappoint we're in for I emailed GW's feedback with the above questions.
First round of Beta-rules concerning smite spam: "Holy feth, we totally forgot how this could affect Grey Knights...They already had a smite nerf and this makes them the weakest psykers in the game, so lets make them exempt, our bad..."
Second wave of beta rules concerning deepstriking: "what are Grey Knights?"
I hope that this is just a really messy written rule and they didnt intend to restrict spells and shunts.
I have also emailed them. I am hoping weight of emails will cause a reaponse.
If this is the worst case scenario we are going to have to LOS turn one (if terrain allows) from gunlines basically pass our turn other than maybe some raven shots or a landraider and then start turn 2 with whatever gaps they have kindly left us to land in.
I'm not all doom and gloom some big heavy hitters were raised in price and we do get the smite tweak (I won't say buff
So glad I just finished painting all of my models, for my very first grey knights and 40k game tomorrow... I'm sure it's gonna be even more of a blast with this DS rule change... Why GW.... why??
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.
Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.
I'm following the logic like this:
GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.
How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?
That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.
The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.
Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):
REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed
Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?
Just as some additional information, in Index: Xenos 1 there is a question about how Swooping Hawks interact with Tactical Reserves killing units after turn 3. It is clearly stated that it does not effect them as long as they have already been on the board before turn 3 as the first time the touch the board is when they "arrive", not every time they are set up again. It uses the same remove from the battlefield, then setup more than 9" away language GoI and Shunt do.
Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Page 177 of the rulebook covers units being set up mid-turn as being reinforcements.
Just want to follow this up, because if the interpretation stands that GoI restrictions on turn 1 are facilitated by the rules for "Reinforcements" on page 177 and not specific to "Tactical Reserves" in the FAQ / page 215, then using GoI after turn 3 means that you auto kill your unit.
I'm following the logic like this:
GoI restricted to own zone on turn 1 is realized because the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, then is subject to rules that restrict deployment before it can be put back on the table. It "becomes" reinforcements when it's removed from the table, per that interpretation. Therefore, when used during matched play and you follow this interpretation, you manifest GoI on turn 4, the unit is removed from the table, enters reserves / is undeployed, and then gaffled because any unit that did not "arrive" before turn 3 is automatically destroyed.
How could we be subject to "reinforcements" rules on turn 1 and not turn 4, right?
That's why I really don't see the rules on page 177 subjecting any effect to Gate if the unit was actually deployed to the board before turn 1 / normal deployment. We're not teleporting them away and bringing in a new unit to reinforce them - it's the same unit already there.
The bigger question in my mind is if you can GoI someone that just arrived from deep strike, or if they are subject to the same new limitations that are on Warptime. That's more iffy, in my mind. If you can gate someone that just arrived from DS, then we have an advantage of teleporting a GMDK into your own zone on T1 and then shooting him over into the face of your opponent, presumably with some Interceptors. Some folks might not like that so much.
Edit - Just for reference, since I was asked to read the rules carefuly, here's what's on page 177 from the BRB (cut and pasted):
REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed
Here's page 215 Tactical reserves (cut and pasted):
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
So, I get it says "mid-turn." I appreciate the grim outlook too. IF the rule interpretation is legit that GoI would be restricted to own zone on 1st rule because of the above, then you have to kill them in turn 4 if they Gate too. I'd be surprised if that's the intention, but hey, it's Grey Knights, right?
Just as some additional information, in Index: Xenos 1 there is a question about how Swooping Hawks interact with Tactical Reserves killing units after turn 3. It is clearly stated that it does not effect them as long as they have already been on the board before turn 3 as the first time the touch the board is when they "arrive", not every time they are set up again. It uses the same remove from the battlefield, then setup more than 9" away language GoI and Shunt do.
Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s
Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the
third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the
battlefield before the end of the third battle round in
order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.
However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth
ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it
had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it
would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to
the Tactical Reserves rule.
Well good, so shunts and GoI should be unaffected, a small mercy in this mess
I may run him as a Brotherhood Champion when I need a cheap 
