We are likely to get Interceptors in an expansion but it shouldn't shock you that there's no Terminators.
Was someone expecting terminators? I'm not sure I get the inference. I had been imagining Purifiers or Interceptors as an alternative. Grey Knights are pretty versatile, so we may be well enough off. It just feels uninspired.
Having already printed the army rules, I am suspect they would offer a new unit at a later date. There just isn't a precedent of GW doing that since the 8e cycle began.
no termintors is such a stupid rule. 1ksons can run around with their dudes having +2sv, but somehow terminators are too OP.
I don't know what kind of cover there has to be on the table for 5 strikes to reach melee or shoting range though. Other armies can fit either a lot more models, or better armed units. Or take a few plasma armed units and invest the rest in to chaff.
GK are going to need some tactic to ignore flesh wounds.the way shoting seems to work.
Has the write up on bolter and chainsword.
As per usual... SJ was already there.
Seems like GW did some diligence to ensure the grey knights can take a standard squad of 5 Marines and have room for some upgrades. I am excited to put a squad out under the leadership of Justicar Thawn (bringing him back from the GW grave)
May take a break from standard 40k for a while and just play kill teams. Game is getting glowing reviews and life is busy busy.
Played a game with my Knights this weekend.
Statlines are identical, on models and weapons. Points are almost the same.
Here's a breakdown of costs:
GK with SB and Force weapon - 18
Justicar with SB and Force weapon - 19
Gunner with incin/psilen/psycan - 22/22/21
Hammer +2, Falchion +1
I had two Gunner psilencers, two Strikers swords, and one Justicar halberd.
The psilencers' multi damage is not necessary because of how the Injury Table works (a single roll to see if a model dies vs injured, not dependent on damage), and I was surprisingly unimpressed with the guns throughout the match.
Mathhammer says that S7 AP-1 will do a tiny bit more than S4 AP0, and I concur anecdotally. I would much rather be wounding on 3's and 2's rather than 4's against Marines, Orks, and Crons. The AP also helps against Power Armour, which is beastly in this small of games.
I had two really great games, against Marines and Orks, and handily beat them both. I had five models at 100pts, which means my team will NEVER break. And despite being outnumbered in both games (Marine had 7 models, Ork had 12), I didn't feel overwhelmed most of the time.
Psybolt Ammo is 1CP, and makes a SB S5 AP-1, and it is WORTH IT.
I think my team will look like this:
Justicar with Halberd - 19 (although I'm tempted to do a warding stave)
Striker with Falchions - 19
Striker with Falchions - 19
Gunner with Psycannon - 21
Gunner with Psycannon - 21
==99pts
Has the write up on bolter and chainsword.
As per usual... SJ was already there.
Seems like GW did some diligence to ensure the grey knights can take a standard squad of 5 Marines and have room for some upgrades. I am excited to put a squad out under the leadership of Justicar Thawn (bringing him back from the GW grave)
May take a break from standard 40k for a while and just play kill teams. Game is getting glowing reviews and life is busy busy.
Well, I am a regular contributor on both forums. Most of what I post is intended to be read as humor.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Played a game with my Knights this weekend.
Statlines are identical, on models and weapons. Points are almost the same.
Here's a breakdown of costs:
GK with SB and Force weapon - 18
Justicar with SB and Force weapon - 19
Gunner with incin/psilen/psycan - 22/22/21
Hammer +2, Falchion +1
I had two Gunner psilencers, two Strikers swords, and one Justicar halberd.
The psilencers' multi damage is not necessary because of how the Injury Table works (a single roll to see if a model dies vs injured, not dependent on damage), and I was surprisingly unimpressed with the guns throughout the match.
Mathhammer says that S7 AP-1 will do a tiny bit more than S4 AP0, and I concur anecdotally. I would much rather be wounding on 3's and 2's rather than 4's against Marines, Orks, and Crons. The AP also helps against Power Armour, which is beastly in this small of games.
I had two really great games, against Marines and Orks, and handily beat them both. I had five models at 100pts, which means my team will NEVER break. And despite being outnumbered in both games (Marine had 7 models, Ork had 12), I didn't feel overwhelmed most of the time.
Psybolt Ammo is 1CP, and makes a SB S5 AP-1, and it is WORTH IT.
I think my team will look like this:
Justicar with Halberd - 19 (although I'm tempted to do a warding stave)
Striker with Falchions - 19
Striker with Falchions - 19
Gunner with Psycannon - 21
Gunner with Psycannon - 21
==99pts
Glad I still have some power armor with psycannons
The psilencers' multi damage is not necessary because of how the Injury Table works (a single roll to see if a model dies vs injured, not dependent on damage), and I was surprisingly unimpressed with the guns throughout the match.
Mathhammer says that S7 AP-1 will do a tiny bit more than S4 AP0, and I concur anecdotally. I would much rather be wounding on 3's and 2's rather than 4's against Marines, Orks, and Crons. The AP also helps against Power Armour, which is beastly in this small of games.
==99pts
Just been reading my mates KT rules which arrived early on the Courier today.
It seems multi damage weapons do in fact assist with the injury roll. If you are wounded by a multi damage weapon, you roll dice equal to the damage of the weapon and pick the highest.
Making me rethink psilencers instead of psycannons.
Also brings up a rules query - it says to use the result rolled for random damage guns when you wound. So if I wound twice, then roll a 1 and 3 for the damage, can I choose the 3 damage?
The psilencers' multi damage is not necessary because of how the Injury Table works (a single roll to see if a model dies vs injured, not dependent on damage), and I was surprisingly unimpressed with the guns throughout the match.
Mathhammer says that S7 AP-1 will do a tiny bit more than S4 AP0, and I concur anecdotally. I would much rather be wounding on 3's and 2's rather than 4's against Marines, Orks, and Crons. The AP also helps against Power Armour, which is beastly in this small of games.
==99pts
Just been reading my mates KT rules which arrived early on the Courier today.
It seems multi damage weapons do in fact assist with the injury roll. If you are wounded by a multi damage weapon, you roll dice equal to the damage of the weapon and pick the highest.
Making me rethink psilencers instead of psycannons.
Also brings up a rules query - it says to use the result rolled for random damage guns when you wound. So if I wound twice, then roll a 1 and 3 for the damage, can I choose the 3 damage?
Yeah, my tutor could've missed some important bits, and if that IS the case, then psilencers again become an attractive option. We had a LOT of injured models running around (at one point there were five, out of 17 total models in the game), so upping the odds of outright slaughter is very attractive.
Age old question- with the proliferation of Titanic models what are people using to bring them down? I don't see any way a pure GK army can do it due to it's lack of S8+ /big damage weapons. All I can think of is to fight fire with fire and buy into either IK or IG (for the super heavy tanks).
It looks like our gene seed purity is out the window and it's into the soup pot for GK.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Age old question- with the proliferation of Titanic models what are people using to bring them down? I don't see any way a pure GK army can do it due to it's lack of S8+ /big damage weapons. All I can think of is to fight fire with fire and buy into either IK or IG (for the super heavy tanks).
It looks like our gene seed purity is out the window and it's into the soup pot for GK.
Technically, GK are suppose to Mortal Wound the big guys to death.
Let's see at 1 wound per unit it would only take around 2 rounds to do 1 in (if you had 14+ units on the board). I wonder how the designers think/thought that a GK army would work vs an IK army?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Age old question- with the proliferation of Titanic models what are people using to bring them down? I don't see any way a pure GK army can do it due to it's lack of S8+ /big damage weapons. All I can think of is to fight fire with fire and buy into either IK or IG (for the super heavy tanks).
It looks like our gene seed purity is out the window and it's into the soup pot for GK.
Beat them to death with a dreadknight (and I can’t reccoment the hammer enough for that task).
so kill team looks pretty fun, im excited,
now i realize you arent allowed to take terminators, but theoretically if we did, how would you guys do them? just for fun/open games. using their rulebook points they are 43 each, so you could really only take two. would it be totally insane to drop them to 30 so you could take a little team of three? and maybe change their stats a bit? what do you guys think?
again just for fun games.
Spartan117xyz wrote: so kill team looks pretty fun, im excited,
now i realize you arent allowed to take terminators, but theoretically if we did, how would you guys do them? just for fun/open games. using their rulebook points they are 43 each, so you could really only take two. would it be totally insane to drop them to 30 so you could take a little team of three? and maybe change their stats a bit? what do you guys think?
again just for fun games.
To be honest, 30 points is closer to what they should be in 40k than 43 points, but probably a bit light to be fair. Fun fact, they used to be 33 points in the codex last edition when termies were still one wound.
I don't think they should be in kill team after my experience with the GK stratagem during a few games on the weekend. 2+ saves are a bit much, have no idea how some armies will go about dealing with Thousand sons who get them regularly. If Terminators were allowed in KT, they would have to be 1 per team maximum, just to make it fair on those teams who can't/don't easily pack heaps of AP weapons.
For me it's just kill team for a while with my GK.
I'm putting my main forces of GK on the shelf until the December CA just due to the fact that GK can't handle titanic sized models with the rules as they are now.
Ran kill teams tonight against a friend's guardsmen. In 3 games I lost 1 grey knight model and his army always broke by turn 3. It was pretty brutal. On the 4th game he switched up to pure scions and did much better.
The psilencer is a great weapon and is very good at putting down any model... The d3 wounds helps against every model with the way wounding works. Ran 1 psycannon and 1 psilencer. They did great. Had falcions on the other three. Still up in the air about a specialist.
Hugging terrain is VERY important! Had a lot of models live because they were hugging the terrain
Also keep in mind that in KT matched play, you'll be able to plan out 20 GK models with different loadouts and specializations, then build your 5 man kill team out of them at the start of each game. This lets us take pretty much every option and then tailor our kill team exactly to what we are facing, and seems like a pretty good advantage over some of the factions that will always be taking 10+ models and be more likely to have a bad match up.
Has anyone tried the incinerator? Thoughts? I've used it twice and it was incredibly effective for a turn or two, then my opponents just avoided him like the plague.
Even on the 20 man roster aren't you still limited to a leader and 3 specialists? If so, then the other 16 models are just normal GK strike team members.
I don't think that the incinerator really needs to be a specialist since he really doesn't need many/any bonii. The biggest problem I have is that my fire team will not advance very often unless the incinerator kills someone. He isn't eligible for the participation experience point because that requires at least 2 members of the fire team be in play and GK are almost always only going to have the Leader and 3 specialists on the board leaving room for only 1 other model.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Has anyone tried the incinerator? Thoughts? I've used it twice and it was incredibly effective for a turn or two, then my opponents just avoided him like the plague.
I was originally questioning the incinerator vs having a guaranteed 4 shots with a stormbolter+CC multi-damage, but with the amount of negative hit modifiers it could be useful.
Something that changes a little for us vs 40k is that being able to inflict multiple wounds on a target isn’t really as useful anymore...if I wound you 2 times with a storm bolter, only one actually “counts”. For shooting I think this makes the psilencer an autotake since even with negatives you’ve got enough shots to probably get a wound through, and an average of 75% chance to take a model out of action from range. For CC, I need to re-run the numbers to see if “always take falchions” still holds true (though being able to split attacks if you get multi-charged is useful).
Zarroc1733 wrote: Has anyone tried the incinerator? Thoughts? I've used it twice and it was incredibly effective for a turn or two, then my opponents just avoided him like the plague.
I was originally questioning the incinerator vs having a guaranteed 4 shots with a stormbolter+CC multi-damage, but with the amount of negative hit modifiers it could be useful.
Something that changes a little for us vs 40k is that being able to inflict multiple wounds on a target isn’t really as useful anymore...if I wound you 2 times with a storm bolter, only one actually “counts”. For shooting I think this makes the psilencer an autotake since even with negatives you’ve got enough shots to probably get a wound through, and an average of 75% chance to take a model out of action from range. For CC, I need to re-run the numbers to see if “always take falchions” still holds true (though being able to split attacks if you get multi-charged is useful).
Agreed on pilencers being the best. I wouldn't see them ever being outclassed by psycannons. Perhaps vs plague marines psycannons might be better thanks to the higher strength? I don't really wanna math it. Will definitely be trying incinerators at some stage. You have to get close but due to the way charging works and your improved mobility (with advance) you can basically ensure that anything that could charge you will definitely be overwatched. I forsee throwing the flamer dude into the enemy line along with the 2+ save stratagem as a crucial breakthrough move.
One thing Ive noted from my first few games is that you will more often than not have targets that are within 2 inches of each other as long as you are playing with enough LOS blocking terrain. There is a natural tendancy to group up your models when trying to gain supremacy over a fire lane, while also taking advantage of the cover available. This means that a single weapon firing multiple 1 damage shots is usually not a detriment, as you just split those shots across your desired targets. Often I would just fire all the shots at a priority target anyway (like damned plasma guns).
So I just realized pox walkers don't have the daemon keyword. Obviously they'll add in some daemons later, and I'm not too perturbed but just wanted to let you all know you won't be getting your daemon buffs at all yet.
I do wonder why our psybolt range is nerfed. Because all of our models are psykers whereas only a sorcerer is for thousand sons?
Psilencer is great. I am liking mine with a demolition specialist. Most models will be obscured so +1 to wound there is nice (and helps offset their obscured bonus), and the +1 to wound for 1cp makes a psilencer wound most anything in cover on a 2.
Things in the open are wounded on a 2-3 depending on toughness with the strategm.
Sniper or comms is awesome too for extra accuracy. Or if you want to make sure something dies, a comms nearby to give the psilencer +1 to hit. Hitting on 2+(3+ in cover) wounding on 2-3 will kill most targets.
As for the incinerators... Would the veterans strategm allow them to move at the start of the first battle round and in the subsequent movement phase? Could make him wicked fast and get in someone's face quick with the flamer. And then he doesn't mind being there against melee armies either because his overwatch can be so devastating.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Even on the 20 man roster aren't you still limited to a leader and 3 specialists? If so, then the other 16 models are just normal GK strike team members.
I don't think that the incinerator really needs to be a specialist since he really doesn't need many/any bonii. The biggest problem I have is that my fire team will not advance very often unless the incinerator kills someone. He isn't eligible for the participation experience point because that requires at least 2 members of the fire team be in play and GK are almost always only going to have the Leader and 3 specialists on the board leaving room for only 1 other model.
The 20 man roster is any 20 models of any type and any combination of specialists, with no limits other than you can only have 20. Before each game you have to build a legal kill team out of these 20 models, though. So you can have multible leaders, for example, but only ever play with one at a time.
Smotejob wrote: Psilencer is great. I am liking mine with a demolition specialist. Most models will be obscured so +1 to wound there is nice (and helps offset their obscured bonus), and the +1 to wound for 1cp makes a psilencer wound most anything in cover on a 2.
Things in the open are wounded on a 2-3 depending on toughness with the strategm.
Sniper or comms is awesome too for extra accuracy. Or if you want to make sure something dies, a comms nearby to give the psilencer +1 to hit. Hitting on 2+(3+ in cover) wounding on 2-3 will kill most targets.
As for the incinerators... Would the veterans strategm allow them to move at the start of the first battle round and in the subsequent movement phase? Could make him wicked fast and get in someone's face quick with the flamer. And then he doesn't mind being there against melee armies either because his overwatch can be so devastating.
I don't think GK have the Sniper specialty, unfortunately....
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Even on the 20 man roster aren't you still limited to a leader and 3 specialists? If so, then the other 16 models are just normal GK strike team members.
I don't think that the incinerator really needs to be a specialist since he really doesn't need many/any bonii. The biggest problem I have is that my fire team will not advance very often unless the incinerator kills someone. He isn't eligible for the participation experience point because that requires at least 2 members of the fire team be in play and GK are almost always only going to have the Leader and 3 specialists on the board leaving room for only 1 other model.
The 20 man roster is any 20 models of any type and any combination of specialists, with no limits other than you can only have 20. Before each game you have to build a legal kill team out of these 20 models, though. So you can have multible leaders, for example, but only ever play with one at a time.
Alright, time for some basic killteam math. This will just be a starter baseline for now, obviously with the amount of modifiers available numbers can change. The numbers will reflect a single model target with no modifiers applied, and we'll look at results for T3 5+, T3 4+, and T4 3+ since these are fairly common.
We'll start with shooting, inside 12".
Storm Bolter - 4 shots/2.67 hits
T3 5+: 1.78 wounds, 1.18 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T3 4+: 1.78 wounds, 0.89 unsaved, 0.45 out of action
T4 3+: 1.34 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.22 out of action
Psycannon - 4 shots/2.67 hits
T3 5+: 2.25 wounds, 1.85 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T3 4+: 2.25 wounds, 1.50 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T4 3+: 1.78 wounds, 0.89 unsaved, 0.45 out of action
Incinerator - 3.5 avg shots/3.5 avg hits
T3 5+: 2.92 wounds, 2.43 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T3 4+: 2.92 wounds, 1.94 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T4 3+: 2.33 wounds, 1.17 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
Psilencer - 6 shots/4 hits
T3 5+: 2.67 wounds, 1.78 unsaved, 1.33 avg out of action
T3 4+: 2.67 wounds, 1.34 unsaved, 1.00 avg out of action
T4 3+: 2.00 wounds, 0.67 unsaved, 0.50 avg out of action
And for melee:
Sword - 1 attack/0.67 hits
T3 5+: 0.45 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.34 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.45 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.34 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.34 wounds, 0.28 unsaved, 0.21 avg out of action
Halberd - 1 attack/0.67 hits
T3 5+: 0.45 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.34 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.45 wounds, 0.38 unsaved, 0.28 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.45 wounds, 0.30 unsaved, 0.23 avg out of action
Hammer - 1 attack/0.50 hits
T3 5+: 0.42 wounds, 0.42 unsaved, 0.37 out of action
T3 4+: 0.42 wounds, 0.42 unsaved, 0.37 out of action
T4 3+: 0.42 wounds, 0.35 unsaved, 0.31 out of action
Falchions - 2 attacks/1.33 hits
T3 5+: 0.89 wounds, 0.89 unsaved, 0.67 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.89 wounds, 0.74 unsaved, 0.56 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.67 wounds, 0.44 unsaved, 0.33 avg out of action
Warding Stave - 1 attack/0.67 hits
T3 5+: 0.56 wounds, 0.47 unsaved, 0.35 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.56 wounds, 0.37 unsaved, 0.28 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.45 wounds, 0.23 unsaved, 0.17 avg out of action
Lol, did you expect anything else?
I'm glad I was wrong about the injury roll and damage value, although I do miss my psycannons....
Do you think it's worth it, though, to get an incinerator upfield quickly? Seems like, with Prognosticators, he can be a shot-soak as well as charge deterrent.
I'm gonna try it out at least a few times, even though it means there's only one Psilencer on the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: Alright, time for some basic killteam math. This will just be a starter baseline for now, obviously with the amount of modifiers available numbers can change. The numbers will reflect a single model target with no modifiers applied, and we'll look at results for T3 5+, T3 4+, and T4 3+ since these are fairly common.
Spoiler:
We'll start with shooting, inside 12".
Storm Bolter - 4 shots/2.67 hits
T3 5+: 1.78 wounds, 1.18 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T3 4+: 1.78 wounds, 0.89 unsaved, 0.45 out of action
T4 3+: 1.34 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.22 out of action
Psycannon - 4 shots/2.67 hits
T3 5+: 2.25 wounds, 1.85 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T3 4+: 2.25 wounds, 1.50 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T4 3+: 1.78 wounds, 0.89 unsaved, 0.45 out of action
Incinerator - 3.5 avg shots/3.5 avg hits
T3 5+: 2.92 wounds, 2.43 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T3 4+: 2.92 wounds, 1.94 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
T4 3+: 2.33 wounds, 1.17 unsaved, 0.50 out of action
Psilencer - 6 shots/4 hits
T3 5+: 2.67 wounds, 1.78 unsaved, 1.33 avg out of action
T3 4+: 2.67 wounds, 1.34 unsaved, 1.00 avg out of action
T4 3+: 2.00 wounds, 0.67 unsaved, 0.50 avg out of action
And for melee:
Sword - 1 attack/0.67 hits
T3 5+: 0.45 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.34 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.45 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.34 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.34 wounds, 0.28 unsaved, 0.21 avg out of action
Halberd - 1 attack/0.67 hits
T3 5+: 0.45 wounds, 0.45 unsaved, 0.34 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.45 wounds, 0.38 unsaved, 0.28 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.45 wounds, 0.30 unsaved, 0.23 avg out of action
Hammer - 1 attack/0.50 hits
T3 5+: 0.42 wounds, 0.42 unsaved, 0.37 out of action
T3 4+: 0.42 wounds, 0.42 unsaved, 0.37 out of action
T4 3+: 0.42 wounds, 0.35 unsaved, 0.31 out of action
Falchions - 2 attacks/1.33 hits
T3 5+: 0.89 wounds, 0.89 unsaved, 0.67 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.89 wounds, 0.74 unsaved, 0.56 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.67 wounds, 0.44 unsaved, 0.33 avg out of action
Warding Stave - 1 attack/0.67 hits
T3 5+: 0.56 wounds, 0.47 unsaved, 0.35 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.56 wounds, 0.37 unsaved, 0.28 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.45 wounds, 0.23 unsaved, 0.17 avg out of action
Can you do the melee for a Justicar? I'm thinking about a halb on him, to take advantage of the extra attack, and since he'll be going in with tougher leaders anyhow....
Yep, nothing really new; though unfortunately you won’t be able to do 2x psilencers and falchions on everyone at 100 pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Elric
For the Justicar (or anyone else with 2 attacks):
Sword - 2 attacks/1.33 hits
T3 5+: 0.88 wounds, 0.88 unsaved, 0.67 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.88 wounds, 0.88 unsaved, 0.67 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.67 wounds, 0.55 unsaved, 0.42 avg out of action
Halberd - 2 attacks/1.33 hits
T3 5+: 0.88 wounds, 0.88 unsaved, 0.67 avg out of action
T3 4+: 0.88 wounds, 0.73 unsaved, 0.55 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.88 wounds, 0.59 unsaved, 0.44 avg out of action
Hammer - 2 attacks/1 hits
T3 5+: 0.83 wounds, 0.83 unsaved, 0.73 out of action
T3 4+: 0.83 wounds, 0.83 unsaved, 0.73 out of action
T4 3+: 0.83 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, 0.61 out of action
Falchions - 3 attacks/2 hits
T3 5+: 1.33 wounds, 1.33 unsaved, 0.75 avg out of action
T3 4+: 1.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved, 0.75 avg out of action
T4 3+: 1.00 wounds, 0.67 unsaved, 0.50 avg out of action
Warding Stave - 2 attacks/1.33 hits
T3 5+: 1.11 wounds, 0.93 unsaved, 0.69 avg out of action
T3 4+: 1.11 wounds, 0.74 unsaved, 0.56 avg out of action
T4 3+: 0.89 wounds, 0.44 unsaved, 0.33 avg out of action
Basically all your melee guys have 2 attacks, and you have some decent shooting. I think the demo specialist on a psilencer is a great combo since the gun has enough shots to get through a lot of negative modifers and wounding the hidden dude on 2s/3s will clear out obscured models you'd otherwise have to charge.
It looks like you're missing a specialist. Per the rules you can have your leader and 3 other specialists.
I would change your demolitioin specialist to heavy weapons. Unless you are only planning on playing the 1st level skills demolition doesn't really do anything for a psilencer. If anything use demolition on your incinerator then at least the 2nd level pyromaniac skill is also useful to you.
I’m probably only doing matched play, so first level of specialists only. So yeah, I’d add heavy to the other psilencer or zealot to a normal dude if I ran an incinerator (thanks for pointing that out).
Here’s why I like demo on a psilencer: it’s 6 shots, S4. So you’re sounding most models on a 3/4, against obscured models or using the tactic for unobscured you’re wounding on a 2/3. With 6 shots you’re still statistically getting 2 hits even at -2, and any successful wounds have a decent chance at taking a model out.
Is it two points for a pair of falcions? The book reads 1pt per weapon, and they get two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Comms and a demo are a must to me.
Anyone think about using a veteran on the other psilencer or incinerator? Does That early move strat count for your movement for the turn or can you move again? Would be nice getting into place with a model and then readying and ensuring you get a nice opening volley.
What are the thought on fire teams not gaining experience in campaigns without two members in the fire team? Is it worth forgoing one specialist to be able to grow your rank and file grey knights? Or is it better to have one GK than never grows beyond the rank of initiate?
Matched play, one would be a fool not to take all three specialists, but in campaigns...
The fire team can grow even if you only have 1 non-specialist. They go up if that non-specialist kills a model in combat. That's why I give my non-specialist the incinerator. He has a decent chance of taking out an enemy per game.
Hey all, I was doing some Mathhammer on Vortex of Doom and the probability of scoring that sweet sweet D6 Mortal Wounds (instead of D3) on Psychic test of 12+.
I am interested in the affect of casting Vortex of Doom whilst using stratagem Psychic Channelling (1CP) — "when taking a Psychic test roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest result."
Finally, how would the availability of a Reroll stratagem add to this probability?
Here's my findings. Assume you are using a Battle-forged army for the +1 modifier to GK Psychic tests.
8.3% ^Chance to score D6 Mortal Wounds once Vortex of Doom has been successfully manifested.
Spoiler:
Simply the chance of rolling 11+ with 2D6 is
1/36 + 2/36 = 3/36 = 0.083
19.9% ^Chance to score D6 Mortal Wounds once Vortex of Doom has been successfully manifested WITH Psychic Channelling.
Spoiler:
Success Event 1:Rolls 1 & 2 add to 11+ (3/36), and Roll 1 is not a 5 or 6 (24/36) 3/36 * 24/36 = 72/1296 = 12/216
Success Event 2:Rolls 1 & 3 add to 11+ (3/36), and Roll 1 is not a 5 or 6 (24/36) 3/36 * 24/36 = 72/1296 = 12/216
Success Event 3:Rolls 2 & 3 add to 11+ (3/36), and Roll 1 is not a 5 or 6 (24/36) 3/36 * 24/36 = 72/1296 = 12/216
Success Event 4:Two 5's and one 6 are rolled 3/216
Success Event 5:two 6's and one 5 are rolled 3/216
Success Event 6:three 6's are rolled 1/216
SUM OF ALL EVENTS 12+12+12+3+3+1 --> 43/216 = 0.199 = 19.9%
30.9% ^Chance to score D6 Mortal Wounds once Vortex of Doom has been successfully manifested with Psychic Channelling AND availability of a Reroll.
Spoiler:
Successful Reroll Event 1A:Roll 1 is a 5, but others are lower than 5. 1/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 16/216
And then you reroll one dice into a 6
16/216 * 36/216 = 576/46656
Successful Reroll Event 1B:Roll 1 is a 6, but others are lower than 5. 1/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 16/216
And you reroll one dice into a 5 or 6
16/216 * 72/216 = 1152/46656
Total of 1A and 1B = 1728/46646
Event 2:Same as Event 1, except use Roll 2 1728/46646
Event 3:Same as Event 1, except use Roll 3 1728/46646
SUM OF ALL EVENTS 5184/46656 = 0.11 = 11%
So the availability of a reroll increases your initial odds by 11%
19.9% + 11% = 30.9%
Analysis For the cost of 1CP, Psychic Channelling effectively more-than-doubles your odds of inflicting D6 Mortal Wounds to the targeted enemy model's unit and any unit within 3" of that model. Not to mention Psychic Channeling significantly increases your odds of successfully manifesting Vortex of Doom (math not shown).
All in all, if you find a great opportunity for Vortex of Doom to affect more than one enemy unit — and those units pose a decent threat — if you have a CP to spare I would recommend using Psychic Channelling to increase your odds at inflicting maximum damage.
Nairul wrote: Hey all, I was doing some Mathhammer on Vortex of Doom and the probability of scoring that sweet sweet D6 Mortal Wounds (instead of D3) on Psychic test of 12+.
I am interested in the affect of casting Vortex of Doom whilst using stratagem Psychic Channelling (1CP) — "when taking a Psychic test roll an additional D6 and discard the lowest result."
Finally, how would the availability of a Reroll stratagem add to this probability?
Here's my findings. Assume you are using a Battle-forged army for the +1 modifier to GK Psychic tests.
8.3% ^Chance to score D6 Mortal Wounds once Vortex of Doom has been successfully manifested.
Spoiler:
Simply the chance of rolling 11+ with 2D6 is
1/36 + 2/36 = 3/36 = 0.083
19.9% ^Chance to score D6 Mortal Wounds once Vortex of Doom has been successfully manifested WITH Psychic Channelling.
Spoiler:
Success Event 1:Rolls 1 & 2 add to 11+ (3/36), and Roll 1 is not a 5 or 6 (24/36) 3/36 * 24/36 = 72/1296 = 12/216
Success Event 2:Rolls 1 & 3 add to 11+ (3/36), and Roll 1 is not a 5 or 6 (24/36) 3/36 * 24/36 = 72/1296 = 12/216
Success Event 3:Rolls 2 & 3 add to 11+ (3/36), and Roll 1 is not a 5 or 6 (24/36) 3/36 * 24/36 = 72/1296 = 12/216
Success Event 4:Two 5's and one 6 are rolled 3/216
Success Event 5:two 6's and one 5 are rolled 3/216
Success Event 6:three 6's are rolled 1/216
SUM OF ALL EVENTS 12+12+12+3+3+1 --> 43/216 = 0.199 = 19.9%
30.9% ^Chance to score D6 Mortal Wounds once Vortex of Doom has been successfully manifested with Psychic Channelling AND availability of a Reroll.
Spoiler:
Successful Reroll Event 1A:Roll 1 is a 5, but others are lower than 5. 1/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 16/216
And then you reroll one dice into a 6
16/216 * 36/216 = 576/46656
Successful Reroll Event 1B:Roll 1 is a 6, but others are lower than 5. 1/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 = 16/216
And you reroll one dice into a 5 or 6
16/216 * 72/216 = 1152/46656
Total of 1A and 1B = 1728/46646
Event 2:Same as Event 1, except use Roll 2 1728/46646
Event 3:Same as Event 1, except use Roll 3 1728/46646
SUM OF ALL EVENTS 5184/46656 = 0.11 = 11%
So the availability of a reroll increases your initial odds by 11%
19.9% + 11% = 30.9%
Analysis For the cost of 1CP, Psychic Channelling effectively more-than-doubles your odds of inflicting D6 Mortal Wounds to the targeted enemy model's unit and any unit within 3" of that model. Not to mention Psychic Channeling significantly increases your odds of successfully manifesting Vortex of Doom (math not shown).
All in all, if you find a great opportunity for Vortex of Doom to affect more than one enemy unit — and those units pose a decent threat — if you have a CP to spare I would recommend using Psychic Channelling to increase your odds at inflicting maximum damage.
Thanks for that
What about if you just have the CP re-roll available? If you are short on CP and only had 1 CP to spare, is it worth just reserving one for the re-roll or is the benefit much smaller than psychic channeling?
Because if you get it first time, then theres no need to spend any CP
Don't forget to factor in the fact that you take d3 mortal wounds if you roll a "12" on your 2 dice. I'm really not sure that the reward is worth the risk.
After playing quite a few kills games so far, I gotta say that grey knights are actually pretty good and it's easy to stack some dangerous high damage output weapons
The only army I have struggled against was a plasma guard army who had an amazing first turn of shooting and the game was over turn 1 (shocker that plasma is good against marines).
I've actually face rolled some of the more "durable" armies. Gk have a very nice damage output and flexible play style.
Lessons learned:
Gk are a shooting army who can assault if need be.
Psybolt is awesome and can really turn the tide early.
Psilencer with demolitions wounds most everything on a 2 (and this model is great as an anchor).
Gk are never shaken but can be broken easy.
I never have the points avail for falcions, so I have swords and halberds mix.
Hug cover and deny as much los as possible. Only make your units visible to what they are targeting.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Don't forget to factor in the fact that you take d3 mortal wounds if you roll a "12" on your 2 dice. I'm really not sure that the reward is worth the risk.
A good point. I guess you'll have to weigh that risk/reward for each situation. I typically give Vortex to all my Interceptor units, because their mobility sometimes allows them to find great chain-Vortex opportunities. So I'll take the risk of losing 1-3 Interceptors if it increases my chances at dealing multiple D6 mortal wounds to units that are more threatening.
Also consider Psychic Channeling — while it increases your odds of perils on a double 6, similarly decreases your odds of perils on a double 1.
What about if you just have the CP re-roll available? If you are short on CP and only had 1 CP to spare, is it worth just reserving one for the re-roll or is the benefit much smaller than psychic channeling?
Because if you get it first time, then theres no need to spend any CP
You could calculate that, but I can't envision a scenario where you're that low on CP yet still want to spend it on a chance at D6 mortal wounds from Vortex.
I can't envision a scenario where you're that low on CP yet still want to spend it on a chance at D6 mortal wounds from Vortex.
Every game because I don't own a Guard battery :(
Sure, but I'm saying if you're that low on CP I wouldn't recommend spending a CP re-roll on a Vortex that has already been successfully manifested, just on off-chance you'll turn it into D6 instead of D3 mortal wounds. There are probably more game-deciding rolls to spend your final CP on.
Dont worry about it, just a bit of conjecture. The ideal that im getting at is to get the D6MW without spending any CP. If one of your test dice rolls a 6, then you can decide if a shot at another 5 or 6 might be worth it. Could certainly be game deciding.
Sorry bit OT but yesterday faced GK and they drew out one of their faction specific maelstrom cards that was ME picking up their secure objective. Now me being orks that outnumbered him bazillion to one and having been able to pick up DZ with easy access to objectives he basically had no way to reach objective I picked.
Generally opponents will have 1 objective that's very well defended so it's going to be hard to archieve most of the time. So what's the upside? d3 points? Seeing how hard I would give flat 3 myself.
Spartacus wrote: Custodes have exactly the same thing - its basically a wasted card.
In any situation where you can achieve it, you''ve probably already won that battle. At least GK have their teleport psychic power Gate of Infinity.
Its just an example of bad rules design, like 'Domination'.
So there's seriously not even theoretical upside like more victory points?
But yeah seems like that's "if you get it you are already going to be winning" as archieving that is often going to mean you are tabling enemy anyway...
Oh and yeah that domination. I got "control 3 objectives". Well with 3 pretty much bulletproof and 1 solid control that was easy. He then got the domination...At which point we couldn't help but laugh. He had basically TWO objectives he could at least contest for a while if he can keep tide of orks away for a while(which he didn't). Getting domination basically means tabling me and with 26 models vs my 243 to begin with that's pretty hard. Even the 99 grots alone would take a while to kill just on sheer numbers!
Looking for advice on building a decent small GK detachment to play alongside my Krieg or Marines.
GKs clearly can't cut it as a solo or even main army, but what about 700-1000pts of them backed up by bodies and guns from another faction? What's the best way to leverage them in that regard?
Is a GMDK even worth it anymore, assuming beta rules go through? Looking at his CC profile, it looks to me like Voldus is almost his equal, has character keyword and brings a truckload of denials and casts.
Or a champion for cheap points - on the subject, can the champion use noble sacrifice and then 'only in death' stratagem?
CPs wil be taken care of elsewhere - so interceptors are they way forward, I presume?
Has anyone had any success with a 4-psilencer purgation squad?
The only unit that I think gets in my list on pure effectiveness (instead of GK-related coolness) is a Ven dread with twin LC, ML and Astral Aim. That's a nasty unit right there.
General pointers are much appreciated - I've archive trawled through this and other threads btw, so I'm roughly up to speed with the deficiencies of the army.
Okay, will bear in mind. 40 heavy bolter shots materialising on a flank is pretty nasty. Do you think interceptors aren't worth the extra 50pts to be able to DS on turn 1?
How about my brotherhood champion question? Heroic Sacrifice triggers on death - can it be combined with Only in Death strat? if so a champ makes 12 attacks in the round he drops.
Which unit takes advantage of astral aim the best, in your experience - ven dread with lascannon and ML, or purgators with psilencers?
Reading through a lot of the posts on this thread it gave me a rough idea on where to start.
Originally started off as a Kill Team but decided to make an actual army.
+ HQ + Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight:
+ Warlord / First to the Fray
+ Dreadfist
+ DK Teleporter
+ Gatling Psilencer
+ Heavy Psycannon
+ Nemesis Daemon Greathammer
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Not sure why you'd use the Librarian. Best switch it out for a regular Captain if you want a Terminator HQ.
Probably because the Librarian is the only GK unit other than Draigo that can take a Storm Shield.
SJ
Not really a convincing argument seeing that if someone wants to kill either one they will. Go for the better aura at least.
Or you could just read his list, and note that he took a Storm Shield on the Librarian.
SJ
Well yeah he did. And?
Lose the Storm Shield and lose the Librarian.
You asked why he took the Librarian, which was answered. It’s his choice, and a bad choice given that it’s probably the only reason to take a GK Librarian in 8th. Just because you would take a different model to cover a completely different role does not mean he has to.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Not sure why you'd use the Librarian. Best switch it out for a regular Captain if you want a Terminator HQ.
Probably because the Librarian is the only GK unit other than Draigo that can take a Storm Shield.
SJ
Not really a convincing argument seeing that if someone wants to kill either one they will. Go for the better aura at least.
Or you could just read his list, and note that he took a Storm Shield on the Librarian.
SJ
Well yeah he did. And?
Lose the Storm Shield and lose the Librarian.
You asked why he took the Librarian, which was answered. It’s his choice, and a bad choice given that it’s probably the only reason to take a GK Librarian in 8th. Just because you would take a different model to cover a completely different role does not mean he has to.
SJ
The poster asked for suggestions. Taking the Librarian out of the list is a good suggestion.
grouchoben wrote: Looking for advice on building a decent small GK detachment to play alongside my Krieg or Marines.
GKs clearly can't cut it as a solo or even main army, but what about 700-1000pts of them backed up by bodies and guns from another faction? What's the best way to leverage them in that regard?
Is a GMDK even worth it anymore, assuming beta rules go through? Looking at his CC profile, it looks to me like Voldus is almost his equal, has character keyword and brings a truckload of denials and casts.
Or a champion for cheap points - on the subject, can the champion use noble sacrifice and then 'only in death' stratagem?
CPs wil be taken care of elsewhere - so interceptors are they way forward, I presume?
Has anyone had any success with a 4-psilencer purgation squad?
The only unit that I think gets in my list on pure effectiveness (instead of GK-related coolness) is a Ven dread with twin LC, ML and Astral Aim. That's a nasty unit right there.
General pointers are much appreciated - I've archive trawled through this and other threads btw, so I'm roughly up to speed with the deficiencies of the army.
voldus is nice - I take him every game. GMDK are more about being your armies shooting than CC beat stick - though they do that really well too (they just cost so dang much).
I'd probably go for this kind of list to support an IG army.
GMDK psycannon/psilencer - hammer (not sure if hes worth it anymore) (other good options here are crowe or a brother captain with psilencer hammer)
Voldus
10x strike
5x strike
5x strike
Crowe is never a good choice for anything other than "What is possibly the worst model in the codex?" He is cheap and he proves it by having a named weapon that isn't even as good as a normal nemesis weapon. He also can't use a normal smite (his has to be used at 3" or less). He also doesn't have an aura to help other models.
Mathhammer (p9) says that the sword is better than the hammer in most instances and will save you 5 points.
Crowe is cheap and averages like 8 wounds on a squad or a character with a high invo save. With a brotherhood champion his smite range is range 6". In a pure GK army he will never be in the right place at the right time but in an IG army. They are probably coming to you. Not to mention he fights again when he dies. I never said he was the best choice. He is a counter charger - good for heroic interventions because next turn you will absolutely be able to use your smite. Probably the best choice against harliquens/wracks/grots/clearing out kabalites and infantry squads. Hard to believe the hatred the guy gets. Considering every GK smites for 1 mortal - he probably can't smite until the next turn but then hes got a d6 smite. d6 smite is awesome even at 3".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Crowe is never a good choice for anything other than "What is possibly the worst model in the codex?" He is cheap and he proves it by having a named weapon that isn't even as good as a normal nemesis weapon. He also can't use a normal smite (his has to be used at 3" or less). He also doesn't have an aura to help other models.
Mathhammer (p9) says that the sword is better than the hammer in most instances and will save you 5 points.
hammer is always better on characters. a 3+ reroll 1 hammer averages 1 less hit and averages 1 or 2 more wounds vs most everything Important. Then it does flat 3 damage compared to d3 and has 1 better AP. The mathhammer on page 9 is for infantry with 1 attack base.
shane_hawley wrote: How successful has it been to use Astral Aim outside the shooting phase? Any successful use for targeting for psychic powers or any other cheese?
I'm not even sure you can do that. You don't target things in the psychic phase (you pick a unit or model etc) and the power doesn't make things count as visible, which is a requirement for most powers.
Astral aim is probably best used on whatever target you use your psibolt ammo or the other one that works on heavy cannons. The ignore cover combined with ap-1 granted by the stratagem are going to produce a lot of damage. Usually ive used it on GMDK or 10 man strike squads to shoot a unit in cover. Your weapons typical don't have great range so the ignore LOS aspect is not very useful. For a LR or a ven dread it can also be useful. I am usually not including those things though for GK so I can't really comment on that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You could also just get a regular Champ with a better weapon, and choose yourself a better Warlord trait and/or Relic.
Crowe doesn't need a relic and your warlord trait is ALWAYS going to be reroll charges - on something else. Usually on a GMDK. Relic will likely be your banner d6 smite or the halberd relic - which is better on a brother captain. I am not saying he is amazing. Just that he is cheap and can be useful. I think hes better than a brotherhood champ for example - d6 smite will outdamage the chapion alone. He's reroll all hits and wounds trash weapon that gets additional attacks per wound can be invaluable vs trash units.
Xenomancers wrote: Astral aim is probably best used on whatever target you use your psibolt ammo or the other one that works on heavy cannons. The ignore cover combined with ap-1 granted by the stratagem are going to produce a lot of damage. Usually ive used it on GMDK or 10 man strike squads to shoot a unit in cover. Your weapons typical don't have great range so the ignore LOS aspect is not very useful. For a LR or a ven dread it can also be useful. I am usually not including those things though for GK so I can't really comment on that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You could also just get a regular Champ with a better weapon, and choose yourself a better Warlord trait and/or Relic.
Crowe doesn't need a relic and your warlord trait is ALWAYS going to be reroll charges - on something else. Usually on a GMDK. Relic will likely be your banner d6 smite or the halberd relic - which is better on a brother captain. I am not saying he is amazing. Just that he is cheap and can be useful. I think hes better than a brotherhood champ for example - d6 smite will outdamage the chapion alone. He's reroll all hits and wounds trash weapon that gets additional attacks per wound can be invaluable vs trash units.
See, none of that makes any sense.
1. It doesn't matter if you're only ever choosing a single Warlord trait. You're talking about taking a cheap HQ and making it a Warlord, so you're going to want to reroll your charges. Getting a +1 to wound can just be done via Hammerhand if entirely necessary. Usually? You won't charge with Crowe against something you need a +1 to wound against.
2. Crowe doesn't need a relic? He has no offensive output against anything tougher than Infantry! Meanwhile, you get basically two Relics with the Champion, which is either the super Storm Bolter (since you're the one that cares about hitting those trash units so bad, even though the army has Storm Bolters out the wazoo), but more importantly access to FNP.
3. Now you're defending the trash Smite he and Purifiers have? Now you've lost any credibility you've had.
Compare to even just buying a Purifier squad, which is more durable vs several weapons for only 15 more points and has several more attacks (10 with all Falcions and something else on the Sergeant) and several more Storm Bolter shots (for once again those Infantry units you care so much about).
For someone that complains about how Marines perform, you'd think you'd have better insight on the singular worst Marine army right now. That's about all thrown out the window with you defending Crowe AND the his/the Purifier smite.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Crowe is never a good choice for anything other than "What is possibly the worst model in the codex?" He is cheap and he proves it by having a named weapon that isn't even as good as a normal nemesis weapon. He also can't use a normal smite (his has to be used at 3" or less). He also doesn't have an aura to help other models.
Mathhammer (p9) says that the sword is better than the hammer in most instances and will save you 5 points.
Interesting. I'm not expert on GK's having played vs them twice. One of those times I faced Crowe. What I remembered is that the darn guy wrecked one of my squads alone AFTER I killed him by spending ~twice his point values to do so(and got totally wrecked in it needing strategem to keep casualties small enough to have semi useful squad left. Mostly on virtue of nob).
Didn't know he was considered bad. Lack of aura biggest issue?
(note I pretty much know only his name and what happened in that game. I was expecting to run over one lone marine completely surrounded. Well I did but did not expect to virtually lose a squad that cost 50% more than he did when I got perfect situation for me! As it is had he got the charge(taking casualties from front helped as his charge range was too far) I would have lost squad and he would still have been alive ready to kill yet another. Albeit orks might be target Crowe is at his best. I would have been in less of a issue vs him with my Imperium army as I could shoot him instead)
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Crowe is never a good choice for anything other than "What is possibly the worst model in the codex?" He is cheap and he proves it by having a named weapon that isn't even as good as a normal nemesis weapon. He also can't use a normal smite (his has to be used at 3" or less). He also doesn't have an aura to help other models.
Mathhammer (p9) says that the sword is better than the hammer in most instances and will save you 5 points.
Interesting. I'm not expert on GK's having played vs them twice. One of those times I faced Crowe. What I remembered is that the darn guy wrecked one of my squads alone AFTER I killed him by spending ~twice his point values to do so(and got totally wrecked in it needing strategem to keep casualties small enough to have semi useful squad left. Mostly on virtue of nob).
Didn't know he was considered bad. Lack of aura biggest issue?
(note I pretty much know only his name and what happened in that game. I was expecting to run over one lone marine completely surrounded. Well I did but did not expect to virtually lose a squad that cost 50% more than he did when I got perfect situation for me! As it is had he got the charge(taking casualties from front helped as his charge range was too far) I would have lost squad and he would still have been alive ready to kill yet another. Albeit orks might be target Crowe is at his best. I would have been in less of a issue vs him with my Imperium army as I could shoot him instead)
Orks are indeed the best possible for Crowe.
Crowe is bad because 1) he can’t deepstrike, 2) his weapon is S4 and has no AP and 3) he is less effective other options. He has 5 attacks base which can generate an additional attack on a successful wound, for a max of 10. He can re-roll hits and wounds so on the surface it seems ok, but at S4 AP0 the damage is negligible (~1.67 unsaved MEQ wounds). And since he can’t deepstrike he’s not making it into combat, especially when the rest of the army is teleporting. Finally for his cost any of the power-armored squads will out perform him simply due to the AP of their CC weapons and extra storm bolter shots...his lack of an aura does mean that is the best metric for judging him. In an army where the cheapest possible battalion is 545 points (and that has bad HQ choices) we have to be pretty efficient.
Xenomancers wrote: Astral aim is probably best used on whatever target you use your psibolt ammo or the other one that works on heavy cannons. The ignore cover combined with ap-1 granted by the stratagem are going to produce a lot of damage. Usually ive used it on GMDK or 10 man strike squads to shoot a unit in cover. Your weapons typical don't have great range so the ignore LOS aspect is not very useful. For a LR or a ven dread it can also be useful. I am usually not including those things though for GK so I can't really comment on that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You could also just get a regular Champ with a better weapon, and choose yourself a better Warlord trait and/or Relic.
Crowe doesn't need a relic and your warlord trait is ALWAYS going to be reroll charges - on something else. Usually on a GMDK. Relic will likely be your banner d6 smite or the halberd relic - which is better on a brother captain. I am not saying he is amazing. Just that he is cheap and can be useful. I think hes better than a brotherhood champ for example - d6 smite will outdamage the chapion alone. He's reroll all hits and wounds trash weapon that gets additional attacks per wound can be invaluable vs trash units.
See, none of that makes any sense.
1. It doesn't matter if you're only ever choosing a single Warlord trait. You're talking about taking a cheap HQ and making it a Warlord, so you're going to want to reroll your charges. Getting a +1 to wound can just be done via Hammerhand if entirely necessary. Usually? You won't charge with Crowe against something you need a +1 to wound against.
2. Crowe doesn't need a relic? He has no offensive output against anything tougher than Infantry! Meanwhile, you get basically two Relics with the Champion, which is either the super Storm Bolter (since you're the one that cares about hitting those trash units so bad, even though the army has Storm Bolters out the wazoo), but more importantly access to FNP.
3. Now you're defending the trash Smite he and Purifiers have? Now you've lost any credibility you've had.
Compare to even just buying a Purifier squad, which is more durable vs several weapons for only 15 more points and has several more attacks (10 with all Falcions and something else on the Sergeant) and several more Storm Bolter shots (for once again those Infantry units you care so much about).
For someone that complains about how Marines perform, you'd think you'd have better insight on the singular worst Marine army right now. That's about all thrown out the window with you defending Crowe AND the his/the Purifier smite.
d6 smite isn't 0 offensive output. It is quite simply - more average damage per point than any other character. You just have to get him in the right place. Which is not hard to do if you are an IG gun line and they are coming to you. Stop thinking so one dimentionally.
In that case I might as well just have used a defensive squad of Purifiers, which would give me more shots against those charges too. Then just run the usual Dreadmaster.
Xenomancer - you keep saying "if used with an IG army", this is the GK tactic thread therefore the presumption is that a person wants to use a mono GK army.
That aside you can do better than Crowe for the points invested in him. For 1 point more you can get a squad of 6 strike members all with storm bolters and falchions. That nets you 24 shots and 13 melee attacks. Plus you may be able to smite twice which means that while you lose, on average, 1.5 damage via smite you'll more than make it up in wounds from your other weapons and you'll have more wounds.
I think most people would agree that you would be better off spending a few extra points for Brother-Captain than Crowe (152 for Capt w bolter vs 125 for Crowe).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Xenomancer - you keep saying "if used with an IG army", this is the GK tactic thread therefore the presumption is that a person wants to use a mono GK army.
That aside you can do better than Crowe for the points invested in him. For 1 point more you can get a squad of 6 strike members all with storm bolters and falchions. That nets you 24 shots and 13 melee attacks. Plus you may be able to smite twice which means that while you lose, on average, 1.5 damage via smite you'll more than make it up in wounds from your other weapons and you'll have more wounds.
I think most people would agree that you would be better off spending a few extra points for Brother-Captain than Crowe (152 for Capt w bolter vs 125 for Crowe).
A dude asked for suggestions on adding GK to his IG army.
I suggested a brother captain first(third) (actually I suggested a GMDK and Voldus first) and as a possible cheaper option crowe. Yeah - he is totally better. He also costs an additional 50 points after you give him a hammer and a psilencer.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Thoughts on the FW land raider? It seems kind of bad. As in 'why would you ever take it over the other land raiders available' kind of bad.
The achillies is 19 wounds 4++ and can shoot in combat. It's not cheap though - but it has great weapons. It's still too expensive.
I like the strong preference to GK in specificity in this thread, but to not assume allies seems odd. One would think a tactics thread would be the very place to discuss allies as benefitting GK. Most other tacticas feature allies heavily in discussion once the codex is meted out. The 'standard list' in the Mechanicus tactica is AM, IG, and your flavor of BA or IK. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that likes tossing in a battalion of the loyal 32, or inquisitorial storm troopers, or admech (Deimos!) for fluffy support and more CP, or a detachment of armigers and their Knight.
The CP battery is a thing and is quite useful to GK. IG are relevant in any competitive discussion as a cheap battalion adds so much to any imperial force and GK can be CP hungry. I'm not sold on Crowe as as a countercharger with a gunline, but the choice makes sense. I too think we have better options.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Thoughts on the FW land raider? It seems kind of bad. As in 'why would you ever take it over the other land raiders available' kind of bad.
The achillies is 19 wounds 4++ and can shoot in combat. It's not cheap though - but it has great weapons. It's still too expensive.
I meant the Vortimer Pattern GK specific land raider.
I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. My choices are driven mostly by what I have available. 1 have exactly 20 PAGK models, 10 of them have interceptor backpacks. This is what I'm bringing:
undertow wrote: I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. My choices are driven mostly by what I have available. 1 have exactly 20 PAGK models, 10 of them have interceptor backpacks. This is what I'm bringing:
Troops
2x 5 man GKSS (Psycannon, Halberds)
1x 5 man Terminators (Psilencer, Halberds)
FA:
1x 10 man Interceptor
AM Battalion:
HQ:
2x Company Commander
Troops:
3x Infantry Squad (Lascannon team)
Heavy Support:
2x Leman Russ
2000 point limit. I've got about 50 points to play with, so I think I can put some hammers on infantry, or add weapons to the Leman Russ tanks.
Thoughts?
Take a Tank Commander instead of a second foot commander. Then both your tanks will be more effective. Giving Orders to the Loyal 32 is mostly useless anyhow.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Paladins are marginally better than Termies, point for point, but still worse than PAGK. You get more shooting from the PAGK, which is what GK are best at, and you get more Smites bc more units.
Drop the Pallies and instead take GKI with Falchions.
undertow wrote: I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. My choices are driven mostly by what I have available. 1 have exactly 20 PAGK models, 10 of them have interceptor backpacks. This is what I'm bringing:
Troops
2x 5 man GKSS (Psycannon, Halberds)
1x 5 man Terminators (Psilencer, Halberds)
FA:
1x 10 man Interceptor
AM Battalion:
HQ:
2x Company Commander
Troops:
3x Infantry Squad (Lascannon team)
Heavy Support:
2x Leman Russ
2000 point limit. I've got about 50 points to play with, so I think I can put some hammers on infantry, or add weapons to the Leman Russ tanks.
Thoughts?
Take a Tank Commander instead of a second foot commander. Then both your tanks will be more effective. Giving Orders to the Loyal 32 is mostly useless anyhow.
Worth it to take Pask instead of a Tank Commander? The extra BS for a marginal point increase seems worth it.
Brother Payne wrote: Best GKHQ to compliment PAGK? (Other than GMDK, but let me know if you think that is the best option too).
It is the best option honestly. You certainly need some source of rerolls to get your value out of your mandatory HQ choice. Anything else is just losing out on essential bodies without any significant gain in effectiveness.
If you don't wanna go GMDK, go for Voldus, Draigo, or a regular Terminator GM (probably in that order).
Honorable mention to the Brotherhood Champion, simply for being a relatively effective choice in close combat while also being the cheapest way to fill the HQ slot.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Beta reinforcement rules mean that at least half your Power Level have to start on the table...
Brother Payne wrote: Best GKHQ to compliment PAGK? (Other than GMDK, but let me know if you think that is the best option too).
It is the best option honestly. You certainly need some source of rerolls to get your value out of your mandatory HQ choice. Anything else is just losing out on essential bodies without any significant gain in effectiveness.
If you don't wanna go GMDK, go for Voldus, Draigo, or a regular Terminator GM (probably in that order).
Honorable mention to the Brotherhood Champion, simply for being a relatively effective choice in close combat while also being the cheapest way to fill the HQ slot.
I was thinking about keeping it cheap with the Brotherhood Champ, but Voldus looks good. I'll see what the points are looking like once I've shaped up the rest of the list. Thanks
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Beta reinforcement rules mean that at least half your Power Level have to start on the table...
Yep this is true. In my gaming group we don't play with Beta rules but if it becomes a legit rule I would have to make some modifications.
The list has changed already so Dropped Draigo, Apothecary and the Doomglaive. Added Voldus, Ven Dread with Lascannon/Autocannon and 2 more Paladins. Or something along those lines. Trying to recall from memory.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Beta reinforcement rules mean that at least half your Power Level have to start on the table...
Yep this is true. In my gaming group we don't play with Beta rules but if it becomes a legit rule I would have to make some modifications.
The list has changed already so Dropped Draigo, Apothecary and the Doomglaive. Added Voldus, Ven Dread with Lascannon/Autocannon and 2 more Paladins. Or something along those lines. Trying to recall from memory.
Not a beta rule anymore. Only Half points stay in reserve.
jeffersonian000 wrote: So ... the Big FAQ 2 is a Big Let Down part 2, nothing that addresses GK issues.
SJ
Agree, we came across no better or worse. Still bottom of the pack. If the chapter approved doesn't give gk some love, then I may be done with this hobby for a while.
Does anyone know if there are any people at GW who actually care about GK, and how to contact those people? I tried sending some questions to the FAQ team, but all I get is an automatic mail response, which means they never get read.
Or maybe there are some people in UK that know those people working at GW on GK rules, and can ask them to write something. People could even start some sort of patron to just pay the designers to write a good FAQ.
Also from what people told me books like the CA are done 3-6 months in advance, so if the book is suppose to go to sale in december the window to change the designers minds is really small. It maybe like days, before it goes in to final print version. And when that happens we may as well start waiting for the 2019 CA to fix our stuff.
GW is very aware of the negative feedback from the GK player community. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to care enough to give us any reason to not continue to complain. It has been a long known fact that GW does not discuss changes until a product is already in the pipeline and ready to distribute. The silence we are experiencing is quite telling.
Aha, that is kind of a bad. So when do GK will have a chance to get updated rules? If they did nothing in the FAQ, the chance is that the CA will be just as bad. Next edition or 2019 CA?
Karol wrote: Aha, that is kind of a bad. So when do GK will have a chance to get updated rules? If they did nothing in the FAQ, the chance is that the CA will be just as bad. Next edition or 2019 CA?
Chapter approved has points changes, so there is a chance there and Sisters are getting a beta codex so maybe we'll get some rules?
Overall the FAQ helped us in one way: giving us another way to spend our precious few command points for 2+ saves on all our guys waiting on turn 2 to jump across the board. Really though I'm hoping we get a special rule enabling us (and only us) to drop in turn 1 again. It might make sense to run almost purely interceptors now, especially since there is no more gray area with Gate or Shunt letting us get into opponent's deployment zones.
TheMostWize wrote: Is thw strat determined on dice roll? Just pick to go second. And hide everything.
My 2k army has 11 5-man squads in it, plus 3 HQs. It’s not a guaranteed thing at all to win the roll.
There is never enough LOS blocking terrain to hide everything, especially with half the army needing to be on the table and GMDKs being kind of large. And even if you could, there is still stuff that ignores LOS or is fast enough to get around it that you need some durability in addition.
Edit: Actually this has been annoying me so much I need to address it - it’s very hard to hide your entire army, even if it’s just infantry. It’s hard to estimate exactly how close you can pack bases, so for a 20mm base we’ll average a square footprint (0.62 square inches) and a circular one (0.48 square inches). Ignoring height considerations, a 5-man squad needs 2.5 square inches of LOS blocking at a minimum. If you have 5 squads out, you need 12.5 square inches of 100% LOS blocking for just a few infantry. And by 100% LOS blocking, I mean it can’t have any gaps or an angle someone can peek around. Depending on what you take GK might have a chance if there’s a bunch of multilevel ruins (angled away from the enemy) but for a lot of other armies there simply isn’t enough. And if you have high-value units like GMDKs which are actually bigger/taller, then the premium terrain is going to get taken up by them.
So, my primary army and first love is Grey Knights. But for a while now I've been using my secondary army, Tzeentch. My favourite model is my Lord of Change, the Creature Caster Vulture. I have been using him at the tip of a Daemon Prince spear to screen the rest of my army, with a 2++ and -1D trait. And with +2 DtW, he resists mortals pretty well also. He's insanely survivable. He is also 320pts, has minimal damage output, and really is there solely to soak damage. Any wounds he gives out are considered a bonus in my strategy. I have other ways of dealing damage.
(Now, the recent FAQ changed that a bit, which I'm salty about. It was an unnecessary nerf to a mid-tier army. But that's beside the point here.)
"Well Greywolf," you may be asking yourself, "why are you talking about Chaos in the purest of the pure thread?" Because, random dakkite, I have come to greatly appreciate the value of a single 2++ monster. It's huge. It swings games. It's the lynchpin. So while I've been thinking about this sad loss of my 2++, and how much I wished I had it back, I played a game with my GK. You might see where this is going
Yesterday I played a team game at my GWLGS, using my Grey Knights for the first time in months. I always play casual at the GW store, and save my competitive streak for tournaments and tournament practice games. So I built a casual 1000pt list. My usual team 1000pt list is 3 GMDKs with a Hammer Apothecary. Pretty easy and fun to play, they usually all die horrible deaths. Two of them have a 3++, one has a 4++, and they slowly get focus-fired to death. But I wanted to try something different.
Lists
Spoiler:
I brought:
Loyal 32 battalion (with a mortar in each squad) (and the Aquila)
GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, hammer
1x5 and 2x6 GKI Falchions (Hammerhand, Vortex, Gate)
Apothecary, Soul Glaive
My teammate had:
Space Wolves Battalion
Wolf Lord Power Armour Hammer Shield
Rune Priest
10x Grey Hunters with loads of special weapons
2x5 Grey Hunters with loads of special weapons
5x puppies
3x Thunderwolf (1 chainsword, one frost axe on sgt, one th/ss NOT ON SGT)
5x Termies with a mix of melee and an assault cannon.
My opponents had Tau and Custodes/IK. I realised this would be a short game, and that, as usual, GK would lose horribly.
Tau Battalion:
2x Coldstar fusion
Fireblade
3x5 Fire Warriors
5x Pathfinders
~20 Shield Drones in two units
Ion Riptide
IK Superheavy:
Crusader with BC and Gatling relic
2x melta Armigers
Custodes Auxiliary: 3x Hurricane bikes
So as you can see, each team has unoptimized stuff. SW player was REALLY noob, which I don't have a problem with in casual games, and ofc I tried giving him some pointers and list-building tips. I think he will take my advice to PUT THE THUNDER HAMMER ON THE SERGEANT!!!
We played the BRB bases mission, which boils down to "Kill everything, then scurry for the objective!" We lost 1st turn.
I won't give a full battle report, because that's not the point of this post. I put the lists up to show you what I was facing, and what I had to tank against.
I started with all my models on the board, with the GKI hidden behind ruins and GW, and the GMDK at literally the very back corner of the board to be as non-threatening as possible.
I took a few PAGK casualties on T1, while SW got the brunt, all his Power Armour died.
Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I understand that his damage output here is above average, but the 2++ save is very reliable.
Throughout the game, he took a whole round of Crusader shooting (admittedly it was hitting on 5s), the Riptide, two rounds of 8x Coldstar meltas shooting, and some Fire Warrior shooting. He survived three rounds of combat with the Custodes, killing two of them.
We ended up tabling the enemy. The GMDK was dead at the end of that, but he soaked SO MUCH FIREPOWER.
I know that tradition here is to take as many of our best thing as possible. But I would encourage you to consider a single GMDK for your Daemonhunter contingent.
Here's the list I'm going to be trying out:
Spoiler:
GK Outrider GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, hammer (Sanctuary)
Voldus (Astral, Sanctuary, Vortex)
3x5 GKI (Hammerhand, Gate, Vortex)
Guard Battalion Loyal 32
IK Super Heavy, House Vulker Helverin
Helverin
Castellan, Cawl's Wrath
The GMDK will attract lots of the shooting, and will try and suicide gloriously. Hopefully this will distract from the Dominus, who regardless of damage suffered will always be shooting at top-tier thanks to a stratagem.
As soon as I can afford the Helverins, I'm definitely feeling excited to try this out!
Something I just realized from another thread...interceptors don’t have fly, but personal teleporters enable them to move over models and terrain...which means we should be able to assault over units, right? I guess it depends if “move” applies to a specific phase or movement in general.
I'm sure this has already been discussed in the previous pages but has anyone had any luck with teleporting an ancient (as your warlord with First into the Fray) near the enemy/behind them, and then following up with several units using teleports or gates? Rerolling to charge and an extra attack would be kind of bonkers no?
I've also discovered that standard DK's are so bad when you have access to GMDKs.
Does anyone know how to deal with eldar exarch flyers? not 5 or something crazy like that, but 2 supported by a wall of weave serpents. Had my first game against such a list today, and for the first time in my gaming career my opponent lost 0 models the entire game.
And I have to play the guy on friday again, and his brother has the same list only with one exarch and some DE stuff.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Can't make an ancient your warlord I don't think. Unless it's open play, which isn't really worth discussing.
Alright, so remove the ancient, take a GM or a librarian and do the same thing - take the warlord trait that allows rerolls. You run the risk of giving up warlord but you also have access to rerollable charges in a possibly advantageous location.
You can make any model the Warlord, it doesn't even need to be a character.
They only get a Warlord trait if they are a character, though. A Brotherhood Ancient would be fine, I've run lists with the Apothecary being the Warlord.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I don't think the 2++ is legal. Heed the Prognosticars must be used at the start of your turn, and the GKFAQ stats that Sanctuary can improve an invul save to a max of 3++.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I don't think the 2++ is legal. Heed the Prognosticars must be used at the start of your turn, and the GKFAQ stats that Sanctuary can improve an invul save to a max of 3++.
I've switched so far to Custodes I forget which, but only one, Heed or Sanctuary, actually 'improves' the save. The other just gives you +1 to the roll. That's why it works.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I don't think the 2++ is legal. Heed the Prognosticars must be used at the start of your turn, and the GKFAQ stats that Sanctuary can improve an invul save to a max of 3++.
I've switched so far to Custodes I forget which, but only one, Heed or Sanctuary, actually 'improves' the save. The other just gives you +1 to the roll. That's why it works.
It's crazy that I get challenged every. single. time. I make this claim. It's completely obvious if you read the rules. Sanctuary psychic improves the save by 1. Prognosticators stratagem adds one to saving throws. Therefore, rolling a 2+1=3, which passes his Sanctuary save. It's not actually a 2++, but it is effectively one, and it's soooo much easier to just type "2++" than to write out that explanation each time. I always assume that everyone, especially people on a GK forum, can make the mental leap....but I suppose my assumption is incorrect.
Before the GKFAQ, Sanctuary and Heed did the exact same thing: add one to rolls. After the FAQ, they edited one of them, not both. That seems indicative that GW doesn't care if they play off each other. If they didn't want it, they would've kept the wording on both of them the same and FAQed both of them, rather than just one of them.
It's crazy that I get challenged every. single. time. I make this claim. It's completely obvious if you read the rules. Sanctuary psychic improves the save by 1. Prognosticators stratagem adds one to saving throws. Therefore, rolling a 2+1=3, which passes his Sanctuary save. It's not actually a 2++, but it is effectively one, and it's soooo much easier to just type "2++" than to write out that explanation each time. I always assume that everyone, especially people on a GK forum, can make the mental leap....but I suppose my assumption is incorrect.
Before the GKFAQ, Sanctuary and Heed did the exact same thing: add one to rolls. After the FAQ, they edited one of them, not both. That seems indicative that GW doesn't care if they play off each other. If they didn't want it, they would've kept the wording on both of them the same and FAQed both of them, rather than just one of them.
I can understand that sentiment as I'm also someone who relies on giving my GMNDK Sanctuary + Heed every turn. It's one of the best combos that GK has, and we need it to put up a fight in this unfriendly meta. Every time my opponents hear the words come out of my mouth "he effectively has a 2++ invulnerable save" they have a similar reaction as the one you're describing.
But I don't hold it against them. It's become a common (mis)understanding that GW wanted to remove the prevalence of 2++ in this edition. I like to think that GW is giving GK the opportunity to still own a 2++ because they want to throw GK a bone. But the cynical part of me wonders if it's just another rules pairing they've overlooked and haven't heard enough buzz about to settle it in a FAQ.
Also to revive a point I made a few months ago... competitive event organizers aren't even unanimous on this issue (see spoiler below of my quoted post from May 26, 2018)
Spoiler:
Nairul wrote: Back on the subject of Heed the Prognosticars:
(1) Can it be used more than once simultaneously since "start of your turn" does not reference a specific phase?
(2) Can it be used to improve the invulnerable save of a unit to 2++, in combination with Sanctuary (or multiple Heeds, if #1 is to be allowed)?
I've made some preliminary email inquiries to Frontline Gaming, and also to tournament organizers of two upcoming ITC tournaments this summer. Thought some of you might be interested in their rulings. To be clear, I'm aware these are not official GW rulings. Still, if some of you are interested in the TO perspectives on this issue, then here's some:
Frontline Gaming
(1) "No, the start of the turn isn't an exception to the restriction. The only time you get around this is with strats used before the game begins."
(2) No comment.
The Beef & Wing Brawl
(1) "Only during pregame can a strat be used more than once."
(2) "As for the invo save we have determined it cant be modified past 3++"
Warhammer ATC Tournament
1) "No, the start of a player turn is also the start of the movement phase."
(2) "I don't believe there is any technical reason why it wouldn't work, although some tournaments have ruled against it working based upon the apparent intent to limit it to a 3++ in one of the Stratagems, so it is possible that ITC MAY limit it before the event rules cutoff."
Thoughts (1) Well that's a unanimous response to #1. I respect it, but I'm still scratching my head about... if the "start of your turn" is equivalent to the movement phase, how then is "end of a battle round" not a Morale phase? Yet in the Strategic Discipline rule "end of a battle round" is referenced as an exception to the rule.
(2) Responses show there's a 50/50 split on this. Not a great sample size, though it suggests the issue is still up in the air and you should probably confer with your opponent before a game if you were planning to use the Sanctuary+Heed combo for a 2++.
So I took the boys out for their very first game at 850 points because that's all I have and absolutely wiped the floor with the other guy.
Things I took away from it
a) Gate is awesome, deep strike is awesome, interceptors are awesome.
b) Grand masters kick arse, even with just a sword
c) Storm bolters and psilencers everywhere makes short work of other infantry.
d) Space marines suck, but they're my main army so I knew that already.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: So I took the boys out for their very first game at 850 points because that's all I have and absolutely wiped the floor with the other guy.
Things I took away from it
a) Gate is awesome, deep strike is awesome, interceptors are awesome.
b) Grand masters kick arse, even with just a sword
c) Storm bolters and psilencers everywhere makes short work of other infantry.
d) Space marines suck, but they're my main army so I knew that already.
Works really well when every unit you have is able to cast a real psychic power. As soon as you go past 1k points your units start to seem far more expensive when all they can cast is a 12 inch mini smite.
Nice to hear you're having success of course, I do enjoy smaller battles more often than bigger ones to be honest - my group is just setting up a 1k round robin after getting sick of the Titanhammer style of match that 2k games are these days.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: So I took the boys out for their very first game at 850 points because that's all I have and absolutely wiped the floor with the other guy.
Things I took away from it
a) Gate is awesome, deep strike is awesome, interceptors are awesome.
b) Grand masters kick arse, even with just a sword
c) Storm bolters and psilencers everywhere makes short work of other infantry.
d) Space marines suck, but they're my main army so I knew that already.
Works really well when every unit you have is able to cast a real psychic power. As soon as you go past 1k points your units start to seem far more expensive when all they can cast is a 12 inch mini smite.
Nice to hear you're having the success of course, I do enjoy smaller battles more often than bigger ones to be honest - my group is just setting up a 1k round robin after getting sick of the Titanhammer style of match that 2k games are these days.
Yup. We did an escalation league a couple months ago here and I brought my grey knights. At 500 (2 weeks) and 750 points (2 weeks), I was rocking it. Everyone could cast their powers and I didn't have to deal with imperial knights (we didn't let super heavies in until 1.5k or higher). But when I got up to 1k, my power really started to drop off. Even worse at 1.5k and 2k (although i did win one in the 2k week against necrons, still had a decent enough of a beta strike holding paladins in reserve and interceptors protected in razorbacks... was able to survive turn 1).
I believe the drop off came for two reasons.
1. I couldn't withstand the focus firepower at higher point levels. Armies really started to be able to point and click my units away in the shooting phase... and losing units as grey knights HURTS. Combine that with the need to put so much of my stuff on the board turn 1 and I could easily lose 1-2 units before I got to have a say.
2. Oversaturated with psychic powers w/o being able to cast them. So I was paying points for something a unit wa sn't doing. if multiple units could cast gate of infinity or sanctuary... then maybe I would be okay.
I ran the following list against AM 2 nights ago with pretty good success.
- GMDK
- Draigo
- Autocannon/Lascannon Dread
- Vindicare Assassin (was completely useless rolled a 1 every time I shot with him)
- 2x 5 man strikes in AC Razorbacks
- 1x 9 man strike in DS - Stormhawk Interceptor
- Knight Gallant
Ended up with a kill point game. Bottom of turn 4 score was 13 to 4 game wasnt going to extend and his only course for victory was killing my entire army which probably wouldn't of happened.
Firepower was good and able to absolutely mulch all his infantry. Gallant killed a Leman russ and put a bunch of wounds on other stuff then detonated and mortal wounded a bunch of other things. GMDK killed a Hellhound a heavy weapons squad and a 10 man infantry squad.
AM Battalion -Company Commander (Warlord — Grand Strategist)
-Company Commander (Relic of Lost Cadia)
-3x10 Infantry Squad (2x Mortar Team)
-3x Basilisks
Bonus points if you're able to recommend I swap for something that's already in my limited collection. Here's a pitiful list of what else I have:
Spoiler:
2x5 PAGK Kaldor Draigo
yeah, that's it.
Sadly, the TO has ruled I'm not allowed to achieve an effective 2++ on my GMNDK with a combination of Heed the Prognosticars & Sanctuary. I wonder then if a GMNDK is even worth bringing?
Previously I used all Interceptors and left the Strike Squads at home. But with that new 2CP stratagem from Big FAQ #2 to give Cover to all units... ugh it seems to really hamper the alpha strike potential of Interceptor units. Now I've decided to only bring one to ensure they Vortex of Doom on the first turn.
Only reason to take Draigo over Voldus is reroll bubble.
I think the mobility of the Interceptors might still be worth it since you have the AM to drive the GMDK. Plus with the Basilisk raining terror they should be able to move a little more freely for fear of retaliation from the Basilisk. Remember you can always opt to go 2nd. Take the strat for yourself and then teleport on bottom T1. Keep everything hidden from the enemy if possible.
Also how can the TO possible rule that you cannot get and effective 2++? He just makes up his own rules?
Also how can the TO possible rule that you cannot get and effective 2++? He just makes up his own rules?
Welcome to Tournament play. The logic behind TO rulings consists largely of what side of the bed they got up on that morning.
I attended a doubles tournament a few weeks ago to watch some friends play. A TO ruled on the day that the character rule did not apply for one players HQ's being blocked by his allies troops, then flip-flopped the very next game.
TheMostWize wrote: Only reason to take Draigo over Voldus is reroll bubble.
I think the mobility of the Interceptors might still be worth it since you have the AM to drive the GMDK. Plus with the Basilisk raining terror they should be able to move a little more freely for fear of retaliation from the Basilisk. Remember you can always opt to go 2nd. Take the strat for yourself and then teleport on bottom T1. Keep everything hidden from the enemy if possible.
Also how can the TO possible rule that you cannot get and effective 2++? He just makes up his own rules?
Thanks very much for your input.
As for the TO thing... I suppose it's my own fault really. I was overly-cautious and presented the Heed+Sanctuary combo to him as an ongoing rules controversy that I wanted him to rule on. Now, personally I don't think it's up for debate. RAW I think we're allowed to get an effective 2++. But over the summer my inquiries to other TO's of high-profile events revealed that, outside the insulated GK community, this issue is still up in the air https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1740/727042.page#9994589.
I'm sure if I said nothing there's a good chance nobody would have noticed and I could have played my GMNDK with a 2++. But this will be my first tournament and I wanted to be sportsmanlike and transparent. AND NOW I PAY THE PRICE!
With the November Warhammer World Open day on the horizon I have put together a 1,000 (almost) point list using all the models I have (Voldus and the dread are still subassembled for painting but whatever). Comments would be appreciated, as there is still a month and a bit to aquire other models.
994 total points
HQ Grand Master
Psilencer
Sword
Voldus
Troops
Strike Squad
Psilencer
Sword and three sets of falchions
Elites
Paladin Squad
One sword, one staff and two halberds
Doomglaive Dreadnought
Nemesis Doomglaive
Heavy Psycannon
Incinerator
Fast Attack
Interceptor Squad
Psilencer
One of sword, falchion set, halberd and staff
(I know the CC weapon loadouts are a little whack but I built them to look cool)
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Can't make an ancient your warlord I don't think. Unless it's open play, which isn't really worth discussing.
Alright, so remove the ancient, take a GM or a librarian and do the same thing - take the warlord trait that allows rerolls. You run the risk of giving up warlord but you also have access to rerollable charges in a possibly advantageous location.
I've tried this. My experience is a little less than half make it in and the rest stand there waiting to get shot the next turn. Plenty of times (even with rerolls) that nothing happens from it. It's a high risk move that puts you at a disadvantage if it doesn't work. I also wouldnt do this against a melee army.
Smotejob wrote: What happened to the talons if the emperor that forgeworld was talking about that would help out the grey knights?
It's Custodes nice try
It was supposed to include GK and sisters of silence as well...though if FW does any GK stuff I’m guessing it’s just going to be land raiders, dreadnought, and a thunderhawk, once and for all ensuring we can’t take any of the normal Adeptus Astartes stuff since we’ll be in a different book.
I have a combo that I'm going to try, and I'm curious if others have already done so. Knights were the last thing that I would typically ally with my GK, due to the high points of both. However, with the Knights Codex they've opened up some goodies that I think help GK. I'm going to try the following list at 2k:
GK BN
1- Voldus (Warlord)
1- Crowe (for horde killing)
3- 5 man strike squads, 1 Psilencer in each
Super Heavy Auxiliary
1- Knight Crusader (Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon)
The idea is to pay CP to give the Knight a Warlord Trait and another for a Relic. Give him improved Ion Shield trait, and either the 2+ armor or the improved Gatling Cannon relic. With the Rotate Ion Shields Stratagem, the Knight can become the bullet sponge your GK need to close the distance with the enemy, instead of killing your NDKGM or Paladins, or whatever you decide to run. It should be very survivable, with Psychic powers and mortal wounds from that being its biggest worry. With GK around to Deny, even that is lessened. Thoughts?
Even if the 2++ is allowed, I feel like your opponent will just shoot at the other one. I recently played in a small tournament where I opted to give each GMDK a 3++, and it worked pretty well. I'm considering adding a third GMDK, just need make room.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crowe is bad. Remove him for some Purifiers instead if you're that concerned about Anti-Horde.
Which is silly as everyone has a Storm Bolter.
Yeah I really don't get why a powerful demonic blade is literally just a chainsword. Sure the smite bomb in CC is cool but still. He does kinda suck flailing his s4 ap- fists around.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crowe is bad. Remove him for some Purifiers instead if you're that concerned about Anti-Horde.
Which is silly as everyone has a Storm Bolter.
Yeah I really don't get why a powerful demonic blade is literally just a chainsword. Sure the smite bomb in CC is cool but still. He does kinda suck flailing his s4 ap- fists around.
Chainsword actually does something this edition. Crowe would kill just to get his hands on a chainsword.
The story being of course that he doesn't use the blades' daemonic potential, which I guess accounts for S: user. But I see no reason that an ancient mastercrafted relic blade, daemonic or not, shouldn't at least have token AP and Damage 2
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crowe is bad. Remove him for some Purifiers instead if you're that concerned about Anti-Horde.
Which is silly as everyone has a Storm Bolter.
Yeah I really don't get why a powerful demonic blade is literally just a chainsword. Sure the smite bomb in CC is cool but still. He does kinda suck flailing his s4 ap- fists around.
Chainsword actually does something this edition. Crowe would kill just to get his hands on a chainsword.
The story being of course that he doesn't use the blades' daemonic potential, which I guess accounts for S: user. But I see no reason that an ancient mastercrafted relic blade, daemonic or not, shouldn't at least have token AP and Damage 2
Yeah... I don't get how it stops being sharp when Crowe picks it up.
I have mine magnetized to be any of the varients. What an IK does for grey knights is provide a distraction. People have to deal with a knight. If they don't my knights almost always recoup their cost. If they attack my knight, my grey knights get to provide sustained pressure.
My 1 knight I trick it out for durability. The list I've ran in the past with good success is 1 crusader supporting my gk. Having one gmndk gate up the field supporting my warden makes two big threats. Both easily rock a 3++ with the Grand Master able to get +1 to that roll. I'll have 2 more gmndk walking up the field for mid field shooting (still potent shooting at 24"). This is something I've been working on to pretty good success. It's pretty mean, but nowhere near the meanest thing out there.
Here is the Rough list
Gmndk 3x, psycannons, psilencer Sword
3x strike squad falcions
Imperial knights hawkshroud
Warden (warlord, ion shield + armor of sainted ion).
2x helvrins
Which leaves about 70pts of flex.
I like helvrins over rifle dreads. They are more mobile, more durable ( more wounds), and put out more dmg on avg and don't mind the degradation table with hawkshroud.
Sometimes I drop a gmndk for voldus to spam MW. It also frees up points. Allows for more cp battery or more firepower.
Grey knights also help to prevent mortal wounds from getting thru to my IK
Jeffersonian, Smotejob, thanks for giving your thoughts, much appreciated.
Also, I'd agree that NDKGM and Paladins are solid units. I've had very good luck in smaller events with them (more so with Paladins escorted by Voldus).
psipso wrote: I would like to ask you which is in your opinion the 3 best "chaff" units that we got in a 100% GK army?
I mean whit that the units with the best relation tank vs points.
Isn't that the question that identifies the weakness of the gk?
Indeed. Few units, expensive and they die that easy.
In my case, I've got the problem that I'm running an Air Wing Detachment with Draigo gaiting behind the flyers wall to give reroll's. The problem is that this leaves me with really few units on the table hence easily to be tabled at turn 1 and with really few options to reliable hold objectives in the following turns.
Also, I'd agree that NDKGM and Paladins are solid units. I've had very good luck in smaller events with them (more so with Paladins escorted by Voldus).
mmm.. I guess that you all right there, Paladins can hide in cover. Could it be that to tank is what Paladins do best in our army and maybe their main role? I've tried the GMDK but the problem that I've run into is that it ate CP as there is no tomorrow and then I use to end in turn 3 without CP and the GMDK easily dying to anti-elite infantry fire or -1 mas dakka. To me, till now, it has worked better as a hammer unit rather than an anvil one. Maybe am I doing something wrong?
Paladins can take his pretty well, but do need sanctuary for those ap weapons out there. They can make hard to move units. They are very versatile and are good at holding a line with proper support.
Might get in a bit trouble as I'm going to be asking a similar question in other tactics threads over the next couple of days.
I'm looking at changing up my current guard/dkok army into an inquisitorial task force of 1350 of guard and 650pt of sister, grey knights and deathwatch that can be swapped out to keep the army feeling fresh while having a cohesive theme for display.
Any suggestions of a good general purpose 650pts of Grey knights?
To keep the post short here's a brief overview of the 2 ideas I've had:
A patrol of 1 GMDK with teleporter, psilencer and psycanon, 10 man strike squad with falchions (justicar has a hammer), and a paladin ancient. Considering making GMDK a warlord for first in the fray at the expense of losing an order for my guardsmen in the hope of better odds of making that long charge when they deep strike, if I do the I'll slap fury of deimos on the ancient for the free relic.
Pros: nice self contained beta-strike, large strike squad is efficient for psybolt ammo which I want to make a lot of use of along with psychic onslaught, hits hard.
Cons: If in the likely scenario they don't make the charge they are sitting ducks (even then not great with falling back rules this edition), a lot points to have in reserve.
An outrider of a the GMDK above without the teleporter (will rely on gate to get up field) 3 minimum squads of interceptors
Pros: a few more bodies and MSU for slightly better durability, great movement, presence on board first turn.
Cons: Less cost effective for using stratagems,
For reference the guard force is a bit weird, with 2 squads of DKOK engineers with priests in valks, 3 minmum squads of grenadiers with plasma in centaurs, and 3 10 man grenadier squads baby sitting a marshal and lord commissar. Plays a bit like a poor mans dark eldar (HERESY!) but I think it suits the theme of inquisitorial special forces.
I've used patrols of a gmndk with 10 strikes with my guard. Psybolt the 10 strikes and 2++ the GM (3++ with +1 to roll). Strikes having 40 str 5 ap-1 shots is actually really good and effective against most targets... Even more so near the GM. This is a nice little force to plug into a gun line
I like that option more.
I've personally fallen out of love with interceptors. Don't get me wrong... They are good and I still have a place for them in some of my lists.. but they are just that much more expensive without any more durability.
Smotejob wrote: I've used patrols of a gmndk with 10 strikes with my guard. Psybolt the 10 strikes and 2++ the GM (3++ with +1 to roll). Strikes having 40 str 5 ap-1 shots is actually really good and effective against most targets... Even more so near the GM. This is a nice little force to plug into a gun line
I like that option more.
I've personally fallen out of love with interceptors. Don't get me wrong... They are good and I still have a place for them in some of my lists.. but they are just that much more expensive without any more durability.
Nice to hear you find that detachment effective, I'm definitely tending towards that choice, was just discouraged by the recent reserves changes. But as you say its hard to say no to deeps tricking in 40 heavy bolter shots.
Got absolutely thrashed by necrons today at 1000 points, he was running a load of immortals with tesla and 6 destroyers. It might have gone my way if the destroyers hadn't suddenly ressurected 3 of theimselves after the last one ran off. Once they did though it was over, and I think I only ended up killing a few immortals due to reanimation protocols. I just had absolutely no answer, they move fast, they mow down my expensive dudes and they get back up when they die. Absolutely creamed some tau though (whilst misinterpreting vortex to mean a model of your choosing within 12" rather than nearest but not too much effect) so you win some you loose some.
Immortals are actually good so that might be your problem. Easily one of my favorite troop choices in the game, even without transports and a subpar codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said, if you can't kill a full squad that's your own fault. Focus fire literally takes away the main gimmick of the army.
Destroyers rip up space Marines and at 1k it can get tricky to pull down a full squads in a turn. Especially if well bubble wrapped. Necrons are good in small point games and get worse as the points go up. 1k is right around the highest point levels they are good.
I'm not sure Voldus is really necessary in that small of a game. A regular Captain would be cheaper and you could give him the Sacrifice for more durability.
Strike squads/ interceptors should use falcions over swords.
The benefits of Librarians are lost in an army of all psykers. Grand masters or gmndk is the way to go. Draigo is good, make sure he is giving plenty of rerolls
Regular dreadknights are meh, they hit on 4+ on the move and with only 5++ they die way to easy.. GMNDK get much more milage.
I like assault cannons on razorbacks... Even if they are a bit expensive for what they do. Draigo makes them much more accurate and dangerous.
Homeskillet wrote: Solid units. Is this just a patrol? If so, the lack of CP will hurt, but otherwise I think the units pair well.
Yeah it's a patrol. I swapped out Voldus and the rhino for a GM in NDK. Sadly he can't take the 5+ FNP either but he does come with a gatling psilencer which is pretty cool.
Smotejob wrote: Strike squads/ interceptors should use falcions over swords.
The benefits of Librarians are lost in an army of all psykers. Grand masters or gmndk is the way to go. Draigo is good, make sure he is giving plenty of rerolls
Regular dreadknights are meh, they hit on 4+ on the move and with only 5++ they die way to easy.. GMNDK get much more milage.
I like assault cannons on razorbacks... Even if they are a bit expensive for what they do. Draigo makes them much more accurate and dangerous.
Well, falcions are good but my GKS squads are modeled with swords atm.
Indeed, Librarians are not really required with all those psykers. Regular NDKs are not good but cheaper than the GMNDKs. I'd like to run three GMNDKs but they are very expensive and possibly not worth the pts.
Nothing in the grey knights codex is points efficient.. but dreadknights piloted by a grandmaster get more milage. I've ran just one plenty of times, and it is be a giant pain in the butt to an opponent. T6, 12w, 3++ is VERY tough to bring down... And that's when they are worth points.
Take my most recent game against a guard Leman russ tank company. My opponent lined up his tanks on the back of the board knowing I have a fairly aggressive list. I goi'd my gmndk then buffed him on one of his flanks and had an imperial knight with a 2+ 3++ just barreling down the center of the board. He now had to decide which threat to shoot and fail killing. He shoots at my gmndk with his entire army and does 1 wound. It also forced him to move tanks in response to my gmndk in my favor.
By turn two I was locking up his tanks in cc and lost a razorback and a strike squad. By turn 5 all his tanks were gone and I was just going through clean up duty.
That gmndk took out a taurox prime, a Leman Russ Commander, and a squad of scions by himself.
These two threats combined were too much and the rest of my army had free reign. Don't discount a buffed ndk piloted by a GM.
Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefeld
and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects
(for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of
an ability)?
A: No
In typical GW style this could be read yes but also could read since the whole question deals with just strategem it doesn't cover non-strategem things and as far as I know GoI is spell and not strategem. I would be willing to bet there are people playing doesn't apply to spells and people playing applies to spells.
GW should go for more than yes/no answers and cover also other things with similar effects.
Problem is the the paladins will arrive peicemeal apart from the banner and apocathary since they are 3 different units ... Goi paladins ahead and the apoc and ancient stay behind or stay in reserves. 10 paladins un supported are still good and a threat that has to be dealt with. Next turn the apoc and ancient gate or teleport strike in.
Not an easy problem to solve. Rhinos make them more expensive. Razorbacks are too small. Land raiders are meh. Stormravens will get shot down.
For sure, I've had good luck Gating them. Could put either the Apothecary or banner in DS, keep the other on the table. Rally on turn 2, and smash something.
Anyone brought inquisitor eisenhorn alongside their greyknights? I want to do it just for the lolz of bringing a demon to fight alongside the grey knights.
Smotejob wrote: Anyone brought inquisitor eisenhorn alongside their greyknights? I want to do it just for the lolz of bringing a demon to fight alongside the grey knights.
That's actually the only reason I haven't played him with them. The model is great, and he has decent rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BillyN831 wrote: Any rumors to updates on Grey Knights for Chapter Approved 2018?
No, but I'm nearly certain it will in someway nerf GK. Every rules change in 8th has hindered GK at least slightly. Which is honestly about the only thing I don't like about this edition lol.
No, but I'm nearly certain it will in someway nerf GK. Every rules change in 8th has hindered GK at least slightly. Which is honestly about the only thing I don't like about this edition lol.
Looking at the current nerf progression suffered by this army I'm expecting something like:
Brotherhood of nerfed psykers:
Every roll made by a unit with the Grey Knights keyword counts as a natural 1 except if this roll is a battle shock test or a result to see if a vehicle explode. In this case the roll count as a natural 6.
It's because of that I'm beginning to stock rhinos as probably the only viable way to play grey knights after CA will be rhino spam and throw them at the face of the opponent looking forward to those explosions, at least till the next faq after CA 2018 where probably also this will get nerfed...
Just joking, I still have faith on that GW will fix grey knights in CA so I'm keeping my savings for when CA comes along.
I'm expecting them to nerf falcions so I need to remodel my army.
Honestly, every model/unit needs work.
What I am hoping is fixes to space Marines happen and then trickle down to gk. Fixing the basic marine and Terminator will help. Across the board, Marines just die way too easy. Hoping for a fix to land raiders too
Were nice. I still have a bunch of painted Halberds...
If warding staves gave a 2++ in CC again I think it would be a nice boost to our CC and make up for our units lacking invul saves but being tooled up to fight things that require them. I used to run 5-man squads of terminators with a stave and 4 hammers...take whatever nasty attacks on the chin and then annihilate the target with either S10 (hammerhand) or S8 instant death (force) attacks.
Also, I'd agree that NDKGM and Paladins are solid units. I've had very good luck in smaller events with them (more so with Paladins escorted by Voldus).
I have been making some mathammer about something related. Dunno if somebody has already done it. I've tried to look for it but I couldn't find it inside the humongous amount of posts in dakka dakka.
Often in the game, there are weapons that have a damage of d6 instead of a flat 3 damage. If it's 3 damage is straightforward that for instance to kill a model with 5 wounds you will need 2 hits. But what about with a d6 damage? how many hits on average will you need to kill a model of 5 wounds? How much will affect the randomized damage roll? I've run a couple of simulations and here is the list that I've got by the number of wounds of the target.
Spoiler:
target wounds: 1 > 1 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 2 > 1.17 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 3 > 1.36 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 4 > 1.59 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 5 > 1.85 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 6 > 2.16 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 7 > 2.52 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 8 > 2.78 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 9 > 3.04 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 10 > 3.32 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 11 > 3.61 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 12 > 3.9 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 13 > 4.2 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 14 > 4.47 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 15 > 4.76 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 16 > 5.05 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 17 > 5.33 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 18 > 5.62 avg d6 damage unsaved hits to kill it
This place the paladins in the sweet spot in terms of wound count to tank d6 damage vs flat 3 damage, followed by terminators and the 6 wounds HQ's, meanwhile apothecaries, brotherhood champions, dreadnaughts and dragio are better taking flat 3 damage weapons. Which make sense.
Also as in the grey knight army, there is plenty of d3 damage weapons (a.k.a force weapons / psilencers) I've done the same thing for d3 instead:
Spoiler:
target wounds: 1 > 1 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 2 > 1.33 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 3 > 1.78 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 4 > 2.37 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 5 > 2.83 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 6 > 3.33 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 7 > 3.84 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 8 > 4.33 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 9 > 4.83 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 10 > 5.33 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 11 > 5.83 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 12 > 6.34 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 13 > 6.83 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 14 > 7.33 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 15 > 7.84 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 16 > 8.33 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 17 > 8.84 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 18 > 9.34 avg d3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
If we compare it with the average 2 flat damage we found that d3 damage weapon is more efficient against odd wound count meanwhile flat 2 damage weapons are better again event wound counts. This make the damage profile of heavy psycanons and heavy incinerators kinda complementaries of the force weapons and psilencers.
The following is for a nemessis grate hammer kinda weapon, so this is d6 with a minimum of 3
Spoiler:
target wounds: 1 > 1.00 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 2 > 1.00 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 3 > 1.00 avg d6 with a minimum of 3damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 4 > 1.50 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 5 > 1.67 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 6 > 1.83 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 7 > 2.25 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 8 > 2.42 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 9 > 2.61 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 10 > 2.96 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 11 > 3.16 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 12 > 3.39 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 13 > 3.69 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 14 > 3.91 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 15 > 4.15 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 16 > 4.43 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 17 > 4.66 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 18 > 4.91 avg d6 with a minimum of 3 damage unsaved hits to kill it
Which always is better than a nemesis greatsword. So we pay the extra 5 points and the -1 to hit for it.
Finally in the case of melta like weapons (2d6 and pick the highest):
Spoiler:
target wounds: 1 > 1.00 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 2 > 1.03 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 3 > 1.11 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 4 > 1.26 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 5 > 1.46 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 6 > 1.75 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 7 > 2.12 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 8 > 2.24 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 9 > 2.42 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 10 > 2.64 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 11 > 2.88 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 12 > 3.14 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 13 > 3.38 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 14 > 3.56 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 15 > 3.78 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 16 > 4.01 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 17 > 4.24 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
target wounds: 18 > 4.47 avg melta unsaved hits to kill it
Which for wounds count > 3 is always better than a nemesis great hammer.
@psipso
This is actually one of the reasons (not to derail this thread) that custodes bikers are so good...4 wounds also makes you immune to Flat-3 damage weapons. I agree that paladins are pretty good in terms of tankiness, unfortunately due to their cost the sheer firepower from strikes makes up for the durability of the pallys. Really, what they need are better invul saves.
greyknight12 wrote: @psipso
This is actually one of the reasons (not to derail this thread) that custodes bikers are so good...4 wounds also makes you immune to Flat-3 damage weapons. I agree that paladins are pretty good in terms of tankiness, unfortunately due to their cost the sheer firepower from strikes makes up for the durability of the pallys. Really, what they need are better invul saves.
Actually want to do a custodes bike/ grey Knight conversion and pay the 1cp to have a unit of custodes as grey Knight paladin bikers. Will see what CA says about custodes bikers and points. Frustrated that custodes got what I wanted for grey knights.
I'm done. I'll paint them up and save them for apocalypse games, but I'm done with GK. Just got absolutely thrashed twice today, again. The codex is just terrible. I though I hated playing SM but at least I could lose with some pride and some fun then. Now it's just getting my arse kicked with no fun involved.
Sorry to hear. Those games are never fun. Still holding hope that CA helps. I can only do well against newer players or people who are unfamiliar with gk. No one likes big losses.
My grey knights are usually fielded as allies if I want a shot against a more experienced player. Or I just play kill team with them. They are a really beautiful kill team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would grey knights be fixed or at least worth their cost if given +1w and +1a (+2a for Purifiers) across the board? (excluding some characters) ... Making PA 2w 2a (purifier has 3a), terminators 3w 3a and paladins 4w 4a.
Models would be more resilient to small arms but multi damage shots would still get thru.
Now there is a reason to take the other CC weapons as falcions lose there benefit on high attack models while Halberds and swords begin to shine.
Terminators would be tough to deal with and could go toe to toe with bigger targets. Paladins become Rock solid and reliable even against lascannon type fire. Apocathary goes farther in this army and becomes more worth bringing. Banner is still meh (have it give +1 invul instead?). GMNDK become less of an auto take but still good with rerolls aura. Strikes/interceptors can survive to put out storm bolter DPS for more than 1 turn.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: I'm done. I'll paint them up and save them for apocalypse games, but I'm done with GK. Just got absolutely thrashed twice today, again. The codex is just terrible. I though I hated playing SM but at least I could lose with some pride and some fun then. Now it's just getting my arse kicked with no fun involved.
Take it as a challenge and an opportunity to get even better. Every competitive match that you can win with the current grey knights tags you as a really good tactician. To win with a top tier army again grey knights is easy and requires almost no skills. To win with grey knights against a top tier army it requires an astonishing amount of skills hence an opportunity to bring you command skills to another level.
Whoever manages to win a tournament with this army before CA 2018 will become one of the most skilful warhammer 40K players of the history. You have till the release of CA 2018 to get this position
Besides of that grey knights are the purest of the purest. The incorruptibles. Don't let yourself get corrupt by a slaneesh daemon who offer more power if you swap to aeldari, drukhai, knights, am or another cheese faction. The emperor (who everybody knows dwells in GWHQ) protects. And will protect us with CA 2018... I hope...
Besides of that grey knights are the purest of the purest. The incorruptibles. Don't let yourself get corrupt by a slaneesh daemon who offer more power if you swap to aeldari, drukhai, knights, am or another cheese faction. The emperor (who everybody knows dwells in GWHQ) protects. And will protect us with CA 2018... I hope...
This brought a tear to my eye and joy to my heart. Emperor bless you.
psipso wrote: Take it as a challenge and an opportunity to get even better.
There's being a skillful player and there's having two and a half of your four overcosted units wiped out on turn one by the brand spanking new ork buggy list. (not that I'd succumb to the temptations of the xeno or the heretic)
psipso wrote: Whoever manages to win a tournament with this army before CA 2018 will become one of the most skilful warhammer 40K players of the history. You have till the release of CA 2018 to get this position
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.
The problem that I use to get in with crow / purifiers is not that the 3" inch smite but that the charge phase happens after the psychic phase. It makes them really hard to deliver. How do you manage to get the d6 smite on your turn?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.
5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.
5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.
Crowe is good at killing gants and orks. That's about it. He is even bad against demons. If you want to fill the cheap hq, brother champion goes farther and can when correctly buffed wound t8 on 4s with d3 wounds and ap-3. He is also good at going to to toe with big stuff and tanking it all game.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.
5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.
Crowe is good at killing gants and orks. That's about it. He is even bad against demons. If you want to fill the cheap hq, brother champion goes farther and can when correctly buffed wound t8 on 4s with d3 wounds and ap-3. He is also good at going to to toe with big stuff and tanking it all game.
Every single unit in a mono GK army has a d3 damage weapon though.
Does that help you against harliquens? Not really.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.
The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.
Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.
Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?
Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.
Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)
What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.
Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.
5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.
I said he does more damage than 2 silencers. Not that he outshoots a purifier squad.
The point is that the shooting is incorporated with the melee. If you wanna magically say Crowe got off his Smite and made it to combat, I can magically do the same thing about their shooting and smite and melee.
Not to mention they'll likely be in range of a rerolling of 1's to hit, since you like adding buffs from HQ's without points.
You seem to think moving crowe from unplayable to bad in the worst overall codex in the game is a big deal man. Crowe isn't even our worst unit. It's probably purifiers - a unit you are toting around like it's great.
Xenomancers wrote: You seem to think moving crowe from unplayable to bad in the worst overall codex in the game is a big deal man. Crowe isn't even our worst unit. It's probably purifiers - a unit you are toting around like it's great.
At least Purifiers have better density of Special Weapons than anything not a Purgator (who basically negate their only strength now that they only have a single attack) and do the same smite. Crowe just doesn't have a use.
And no I don't defend Purifiers as good, and they're actually near the bottom with Terminators and Librarians. Crowe is the absolute bottom though.
I take 60. I have density of PA covered. I've got a ton of storm bolters. What I need is ways to kill things with good saves heros that are inside my lines slaying my PA - need it to happen quick. Nothing quicker than hitting it with 2 d6 smites from ancient banner and crowe. There is your roll. Don't need another d3 damage attacker. I literally start with 60 of them off the bat.
I've done 40ish, with the rest being Purgators for Psilencers.
If you really cared about ignoring that many saves you would be going for as many super smites as you can, but you only have the Banner dude and Crowe. That's two nondurable models for maybe 6-7 Mortal Wounds.
Not worth the cost of almost 200 points and a Relic slot. That HQ slot could go to a Dreadmaster instead.
Xeno, I don't think it is anything close to practical to assume a GK army can keep a unit in a list as counter-charger; I agree that in deployment you can decide to separate him from the Stormraven if it warrants. But do you want to really take it there when the same Stormraven and Purifiers can actually do the same thing Crowe does in regards to offense?
Quickjager wrote: Xeno, I don't think it is anything close to practical to assume a GK army can keep a unit in a list as counter-charger; I agree that in deployment you can decide to separate him from the Stormraven if it warrants. But do you want to really take it there when the same Stormraven and Purifiers can actually do the same thing Crowe does in regards to offense?
And the Purifiers would do more damage thanks to having more weapons.
Aenarel wrote: First leaks from French Wargame Studio, the guy is pretty much always spot on when he reveals things (since he gets it directly from GW) so you can probably take the following for granted:
- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Chapter Approved for the 15 of December (approximately)
-Crisis suits a little over 30 pts
- Not much nerfs and mostly ups.
- Named characters cost a lot less, to the point that they may become auto-includes. Castellan Crow is now 80 points and Trajann droped by 75 pts for example.
- Codex SoB release for oct/nov 2019
- Farsight to 125pts
- Eldrad is 15 points cheaper
- +3pts on shining spears
- +60/70 pts for the Necron super heavy (more than likely the Tesseract Vault)
- No change for Abaddon
- Chos cultists to 5pts
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%
- Draigo << 200pts
- Intercessor had a very small points drop.
-Warden Custodes' cost is now closer to their troops, the terminators also got a reduction.
- Almost no nerfs for the IK (nothing on the small ones, a bit on the big ones).
Crowe at 80 is interesting and more usable at that point cost. And with draigo at 200, I wonder what the cost of the other hq choices and characters are going to be. I could see champion around 70, Libby around 100, brother Capt 110, gm about 120 (which would be closer to custodes cost for hqs). These changes alone would help a bit. More bodies on the board is always helpful.
Smotejob wrote: Crowe at 80 is interesting and more usable at that point cost. And with draigo at 200, I wonder what the cost of the other hq choices and characters are going to be. I could see champion around 70, Libby around 100, brother Capt 110, gm about 120 (which would be closer to custodes cost for hqs). These changes alone would help a bit. More bodies on the board is always helpful.
Pray this isn't false hope
point drops are nice but i dont think this is the right move, we're an elite army and we need to be more powerful.. not to deploy more bodies
Smotejob wrote: Crowe at 80 is interesting and more usable at that point cost. And with draigo at 200, I wonder what the cost of the other hq choices and characters are going to be. I could see champion around 70, Libby around 100, brother Capt 110, gm about 120 (which would be closer to custodes cost for hqs). These changes alone would help a bit. More bodies on the board is always helpful.
Pray this isn't false hope
point drops are nice but i dont think this is the right move, we're an elite army and we need to be more powerful.. not to deploy more bodies
Yeah but it's most likely what will happen in CA. I'm happy gk are getting some attention
- Rites of Banishment is getting removed or changed, seems GK are getting the regular Smite power
- armies with -1 to hit are getting changed to +1 cover save
Rites of Banishment removed is really appreciated if this is true! As a GK player im really happy about these rumors, as a necron player i dont even know what to say
The MW increase isn't even what matters, it's the fact that it will actually have a longer range, which in turn could actually make the Brother-Captain a "okay" choice because you'll be doubling a 18 inch range, not 12, meaning we can actually reach out and touch things.
On the other hand it means Purifiers and Crowe who we were just discussing are ironically even more trash.
While it is somewhat welcome, I would infinitely prefer being allowed to ignore Psychic Focus and let all of our psykers actually cast their chosen power instead of reducing our glorious psychic abilities to just throwing mortal wounds around. Mortal wounds are soooooooooo boring.... I hate how the game has just been reduced to "whoever can throw the most mortal wounds around wins!"
- Rites of Banishment is getting removed or changed, seems GK are getting the regular Smite power
- armies with -1 to hit are getting changed to +1 cover save
Rites of Banishment removed is really appreciated if this is true! As a GK player im really happy about these rumors, as a necron player i dont even know what to say
How would you guys play GK if we got normal smite? I mean hypothetically and just assuming, to be safe, that we get psychic focus for smite.
P.S.: The guy from tabletop tactics seems to have won a tournament with a 100% GK army. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRu683wziQ0) Even if it's not a full competitive tournament makes me feel that there is hope
I don't think much would honestly change in terms of our rankings regarding the front page.
MSU would still be favored in order to get more smites, and the best MSU we have is PAGK who are also the best bang-for-the-buck.
The best would just be better, vehicles would be slightly worse including Dreadnoughts just by virtue of them not being buffed. Brother-Captain would move from BAD to MEDIOCRE. Purifiers would still be bad as would Terminators.
I would say we play exactly the same, just we toss out more MW which would help against, IK, Vehicles, and Flyers.
We need more than that to go from the weakest codex.
Brother Captain or two for range extension. Spam smite. Try to get above 30 smite MW a turn. Then max storm bolter fire. If the point reductions are true, I think this is very doable.
We could pull down 1.5 imperial knights a turn in mortals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, brother Captain may very well move up in my book. I've been using him lately with success.
Page 82
– Interceptor Squad, Personal Teleporters
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During the Movement phase, this unit can move across
models and terrain as if they were not there.
Page 82
– Interceptor Squad, Personal Teleporters
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During the Movement phase, this unit can move across
models and terrain as if they were not there.
Yeah, same for Reivers and their Grapnel launcher moves.
The strange thing is this change isn't just correcting an oversight, its a straight out nerf all on its own.
Someone at GW looked at these units, which have no interaction with the FLY rule at all (and therefore no interaction with the rules loophole Re: vertical movement which resulted in the change to FLY), and though: "Y'know what, these units need to be restricted in the charge phase as well" because their own bespoke rules have a passing resemblance to what FLY used to be.
Mind boggling... Its a minor change in the grand scheme of things, but just... why?
If they do this with potentially some point drops on our strikes GK will be every bit as good as TS. Except we will actually be playing with our core stuff.
I'd assume that purifiers and crowe would get some kind of rewrite on their power to just be regular smite that is always D6 or something other wise they move/stay in trash teir.
Brother captain IMO would probably be the go to HQ and we could try to play a defensive type game (always being in cover throwing out 36 inch smites. Also - LR is dropping to something like 280 points with las cannons (might actaully be worth including 1 to use astral aim on.) IDK. All in all if these are encoruaging leaks.
Xenomancers wrote: If they do this with potentially some point drops on our strikes GK will be every bit as good as TS. Except we will actually be playing with our core stuff.
I'd assume that purifiers and crowe would get some kind of rewrite on their power to just be regular smite that is always D6 or something other wise they move/stay in trash teir.
Brother captain IMO would probably be the go to HQ and we could try to play a defensive type game (always being in cover throwing out 36 inch smites. Also - LR is dropping to something like 280 points with las cannons (might actaully be worth including 1 to use astral aim on.) IDK. All in all if these are encoruaging leaks.
Just thinking in an outrider detachment with brother captain, 3 small units of interceptors and 2 dakka stormraven. Turn one the stormraven clear the chaff that is protecting a demon prince, then the 3 units of outriders shunt at 36 inches in a place where the daemon prince is the closest enemy unit, followed by the brother captain who will GI. And then throw at him 4 smites of 3 flat damage at 36 inches to show to those heretics that the daemons have no power over us.
Well, change daemon prince for an Imperial Knight and.... mmm o well, I don't think that even with 4 smites we can kill an IK... anyway, at least we will get some more options... if the leaks are true
15 smites on an ik, and if we are getting 1d3 on 10+, then we very well could do some damage. And we want a nice hammer handed unit to get in cc with a knight with d3 weapons, or a ndk.
I am really hoping they make the standard dreadknight useful, as well as psycannons, heavy psycannons, twin psycannons, incinerators, and heavy incinerators.
I really miss shunting incinerators to point blank and deleting units.
Xenomancers wrote: If they do this with potentially some point drops on our strikes GK will be every bit as good as TS. Except we will actually be playing with our core stuff.
I'd assume that purifiers and crowe would get some kind of rewrite on their power to just be regular smite that is always D6 or something other wise they move/stay in trash teir.
Brother captain IMO would probably be the go to HQ and we could try to play a defensive type game (always being in cover throwing out 36 inch smites. Also - LR is dropping to something like 280 points with las cannons (might actaully be worth including 1 to use astral aim on.) IDK. All in all if these are encoruaging leaks.
Just thinking in an outrider detachment with brother captain, 3 small units of interceptors and 2 dakka stormraven. Turn one the stormraven clear the chaff that is protecting a demon prince, then the 3 units of outriders shunt at 36 inches in a place where the daemon prince is the closest enemy unit, followed by the brother captain who will GI. And then throw at him 4 smites of 3 flat damage at 36 inches to show to those heretics that the daemons have no power over us.
Well, change daemon prince for an Imperial Knight and.... mmm o well, I don't think that even with 4 smites we can kill an IK... anyway, at least we will get some more options... if the leaks are true
Knights will fall with a combination of damage from +1 str +1 ap storm bolters and psilencers - smites and hammer handed nemisis. We got the tools to bring down knights - the tools just need to get better and stuff needs to cost less.
They better be fething 20% reduction on everything, because if I see terminators only drop 2 points I already see the death of the army if they have to wait for another CA.
I'm kind of disappointed that we're never getting Primaris treatment, apparently. Yes, GW, we have different shaped helmets and melee weapons. Is it really so bad?
They may just reduce 3 points on Terminator armor unit and call it a day. booooooo.........
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Quickjager wrote: They better be fething 20% reduction on everything, because if I see terminators only drop 2 points I already see the death of the army if they have to wait for another CA.
I think dropping terminator units by only 3 points is the most likely adjustment they would do.
At that price point they actually become more wound effective than Strikes, while losing out on shooting. I would almost be inclined to say that was balanced, but a ~40% price cut is insanely improbable.
From 4th to 5th edition Chaos Space Marine Terminators went from 50 points to 30 points if I recall correctly. But that was an edition change not a chapter approved.
Quickjager wrote: 26 point termies... a full 20 point drop? That is honestly insane from GW of all people.
*Doubt*
If true that means that I actually don't have enough terminators in my army though... which would be a GW move.
usually just read this group without contributing. I liked the gk termies and have amassed a small army of just them and paladins (~50) usually for cheap off ebay and just a side re-painting project. if they hit 26 points... they now have a spot in my imperial soup list.
usually just read this group without contributing. I liked the gk termies and have amassed a small army of just them and paladins (~50) usually for cheap off ebay and just a side re-painting project. if they hit 26 points... they now have a spot in my imperial soup list.
This is part of the problem with GW's balancing attempts. Any points drops for imperial units makes them way better in soup lists. Strike squads and interceptors are ridiculously good at clearing screens. If they drop in points to make them far more viable/competitive they'll instantly go in to most people soup lists.
The major ruymours I have heard is that named characters across the board are getting points drops. A vanguard of Voldus and 3 interceptor squads is actually quite a tasty prospect for soup lists if they get points drops.
I wanna see GKHQ choices having access to full smite and/or a different psychic tree to cast from
usually just read this group without contributing. I liked the gk termies and have amassed a small army of just them and paladins (~50) usually for cheap off ebay and just a side re-painting project. if they hit 26 points... they now have a spot in my imperial soup list.
This is part of the problem with GW's balancing attempts. Any points drops for imperial units makes them way better in soup lists. Strike squads and interceptors are ridiculously good at clearing screens. If they drop in points to make them far more viable/competitive they'll instantly go in to most people soup lists.
The major ruymours I have heard is that named characters across the board are getting points drops. A vanguard of Voldus and 3 interceptor squads is actually quite a tasty prospect for soup lists if they get points drops.
I wanna see GKHQ choices having access to full smite and/or a different psychic tree to cast from
yea, depends on the player/ high level competitive vs beer and pretzels mid power where I play mostly. like i never field my termies/paladins casue they are terrible btu if they make it into the mid tier i would field em backed up by a knight paladin, a few armigers, and my death korps of krieg. not likely to win any tournaments but against liek minded players fun to play.
I can see drops for other gk unite sbeing problematic. my "competative" imperium list which does pretty well is basically blue tide literally slammign the board full of tac marines... strike squads would be even better (silver tide?).
Quickjager wrote: Strike Squads, if they are accurate on the point drops they seriously might become part of Imperial Soup.
Really they will all be viable with those kinds of drops.
A good mixture will do you well.
Going full terminator is also an option (this is how I played in 7th)
Paladins are now competitive with grots.
This could really be time for GK to get into the mix. Nothing would make me happier. I'd probably insantly go to GW and buy 200 $ worth of GK so I can trick out my army.
Quickjager wrote: Strike Squads, if they are accurate on the point drops they seriously might become part of Imperial Soup.
Really they will all be viable with those kinds of drops.
A good mixture will do you well.
Going full terminator is also an option (this is how I played in 7th)
Paladins are now competitive with grots.
This could really be time for GK to get into the mix. Nothing would make me happier. I'd probably insantly go to GW and buy 200 $ worth of GK so I can trick out my army.
This would be SO dope. Terminators actually showing up and not being garbage? When was the last time this happened? 5th with redeemers??? Terminators are seriously among my most fave models.
Quickjager wrote: Strike Squads, if they are accurate on the point drops they seriously might become part of Imperial Soup.
Really they will all be viable with those kinds of drops.
A good mixture will do you well.
Going full terminator is also an option (this is how I played in 7th)
Paladins are now competitive with grots.
This could really be time for GK to get into the mix. Nothing would make me happier. I'd probably insantly go to GW and buy 200 $ worth of GK so I can trick out my army.
This would be SO dope. Terminators actually showing up and not being garbage? When was the last time this happened? 5th with redeemers??? Terminators are seriously among my most fave models.
I wouldn't even say that. 4th edition Terminators with 2 Assault Cannons were when they were at their best (and that was mediocre at best).
At least this edition they're at their most durable.
7e GKT were rock solid, while Pallies were too expensive and Strikes too fragile. That was the last time GKT were tops, which wasn’t that long ago. And if either Pallies or Strikes were cheaper, those would have been better. That’s why points don’t balance GK, they just shift what’s good right now.
More rumors coming in. Again salt to taste. Looks like landraiders are dropping about 40pts as well. Space marine terminators are being called out at 23pts. We may very well see 26gkt troops and reduced PAGK.
On the otherwise of the warp, sounds like occult terminators, rubrics Marines, greater demons and demon prince may be dropping in price too.
While we are getting a very nice bump, so are the denizens of the warp.
Smotejob wrote: More rumors coming in. Again salt to taste. Looks like landraiders are dropping about 40pts as well. Space marine terminators are being called out at 23pts. We may very well see 26gkt troops and reduced PAGK.
On the otherwise of the warp, sounds like occult terminators, rubrics Marines, greater demons and demon prince may be dropping in price too.
While we are getting a very nice bump, so are the denizens of the warp.
If GKT are 26ppm (28ppm for stormbolter and force weapon, 41ppm for stormbolter and Daemon Hammer), that would be good.
To be fair, Rubric Marine and occult Termaintor should also get a points drop similar to Spacemarines, Greater Daemon os not so sure. But Daemon Prince shouldn't get a points drop. They are way too strong for their cost at the moment. Esoecially the Thousand Sons one.
Looking over some rumors again, I’m wondering what the price point is that taking terminators over strikes is (if termies are 26ppm)...15 ppm? 17ppm? Or if interceptors get a drop will committing to a full alpha strike still be the way to go?
Preview on Warhammer Community says Dreadknight Grandmasters received an (unspecified) points drop along with some other units. Long may Codex: Dreadknight reign!
I hope the teleporter is also free. Stupid paying 10pts for that upgrade or if we do have to pay that, then give it the interceptor movement like it used to have. That 12" and a once a game shunt was awesome.
greyknight12 wrote: Looking over some rumors again, I’m wondering what the price point is that taking terminators over strikes is (if termies are 26ppm)...15 ppm? 17ppm? Or if interceptors get a drop will committing to a full alpha strike still be the way to go?
I think it really depends on how the psyker rules come out. If psychic locus stays and GK gets the equivalent of Smite Artillery, there's gonna be room for both.
Shouldnt it also depend on wheter we want to take the improved survivablity of terminators into account? 2+ / 5++ save plus 2 wounds would mean they can survive a bit longer then strikes
Here's my list idea with the rumored points. I swapped all my GKSS for GKT since I don't know what the PAGK will cost. I assumed GKI are the same (although they might drop 1-2ppm).
Spoiler:
IG Battalion, Moridan Commander - 30 Psyker - 46 Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55 Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55 Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
I assumed a slight decrease on the GMDK (I expect a greater decrease); and that Pals would be marginally more expensive than Termies (at 10ppm more for that extra wound and attack).
That list is 1991.
I would like to squeeze hammers onto all the Justicars.
FFridge wrote: Shouldnt it also depend on wheter we want to take the improved survivablity of terminators into account? 2+ / 5++ save plus 2 wounds would mean they can survive a bit longer then strikes
In practice it doesn't account for much given the prevalence of 2 damage weapons, and save modifiers also really cut down on the value of 2+ armor. Terminators still die in droves.
FFridge wrote: Shouldnt it also depend on wheter we want to take the improved survivablity of terminators into account? 2+ / 5++ save plus 2 wounds would mean they can survive a bit longer then strikes
In practice it doesn't account for much given the prevalence of 2 damage weapons, and save modifiers also really cut down on the value of 2+ armor. Terminators still die in droves.
Pretty much this.
What are people pointing at Terminators? Plasma, Dissies, Autocannons, Ion, etc. D2 weapons were given too freely.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Here's my list idea with the rumored points. I swapped all my GKSS for GKT since I don't know what the PAGK will cost. I assumed GKI are the same (although they might drop 1-2ppm).
Spoiler:
IG Battalion, Moridan
Commander - 30
Psyker - 46
Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
I assumed a slight decrease on the GMDK (I expect a greater decrease); and that Pals would be marginally more expensive than Termies (at 10ppm more for that extra wound and attack).
That list is 1991.
I would like to squeeze hammers onto all the Justicars.
I bet interceptors and voldus will all be cheaper as well.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Here's my list idea with the rumored points. I swapped all my GKSS for GKT since I don't know what the PAGK will cost. I assumed GKI are the same (although they might drop 1-2ppm).
Spoiler:
IG Battalion, Moridan
Commander - 30
Psyker - 46
Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
Infantry 9x with Mortar - 55
I assumed a slight decrease on the GMDK (I expect a greater decrease); and that Pals would be marginally more expensive than Termies (at 10ppm more for that extra wound and attack).
That list is 1991.
I would like to squeeze hammers onto all the Justicars.
I bet interceptors and voldus will all be cheaper as well.
I agree.
But the survivability of Terminator is still poor and probably with 17-19 points PAGK we'll keep see only them on the field. Otherwise we would see primaries everywhere.
Just thinking if the rumor of strike squads of 15ish pts holds true, then I'd bet interceptors go to 19pts. If true that will save your list about 120pts.
1CP — All storm bolters in the infantry unit are AP-2 and 2 Dmg until the end of the phase.
So if CA doesn't change GK's similar 2CP stratagem "Psybolt Ammunition" I'll be very sad. Sure, the GK stratagem affects "all" bolter-type guns in the targeted unit, but it only gives +1 Strength and -1 AP. That's laughable.
Smotejob wrote: Ours should be 1cp. I like the +1 str. It is useful against t4,5, & 8 targets, which is a lot of targets. Ours should be 1cp tho.
Or
Up the cp to 3 and make it an army wide buff.
Agreed on making it 1CP. But now even if they do that I still might be a little salty — at 1CP the two stratagems still wouldn't be close to equal.
Besides the fact that Sisters' stratagem is an extra -1 AP, I'd say +1 Dmg is far better than the +1 Strength ours gives. Both are situational — Sisters' against multi-wound targets and GK against T4,T5, &T8 targets. Against their ideal targets, though, the +1 Dmg is guaranteed to matter whereas +1 Strength will only come into play if you roll certain numbers (3's vs. T4, 4's vs. T5, or 5's vs. T8). Strength in 8th Ed. has always struggled to compete with other stats.
Reductions were literally 3-6 points for non-HQs. Gonna update the front page for people not hold their breath on this army becoming anything more than plastic disappointment.
Yeah, terminators are 39 without wargear now, which is a drop, but Space Marine terminators went down to, like, 23. So we pay about 16 points for the privilege of being Psykers.
(Oh and we get worse leadership cause GW says we're not veterans)
