It definitely changes the math a bit on melee weapons, but I’d say that 3-attack strike marines are probably a pretty good buy. The other question is if it will apply to just infantry or if dreadnights and dreadnoughts get a buff too.
Who cares about regular Terminators when you still have Paladins available? That's where the money will be.
Well neither really matter because neither will get into melee. HOWEVER what this does do is make Interceptors an almost viable choice. Seeing as you'll only ever use Falcions on a 1 attack model, even a minimum squad will throw out 16 attacks on the charge. That's not exactly a terrible deal for a DD3 weapon.
Officio Assassinorum: *************** 2 Elite *************** Vindicare Assassin
Culexus Assassin
Imperial Knights *************** 1 Lord of War *************** 1 Imperial Knight Paladin/Errant/Gallant/Warden/Crusader
I am most certainly facing Tyranids and I know that it is going to be an uphill battle.
Can you give me some advice on how to build my list and how to actually use it? If you reccommend getting more units of any kind. which ones should I buy?
I couldnt figure out how to use GK in 8th edition yet.
Your help is appreciated!
I'd personally recommend investing into an Apothecary and/or a Paladin Ancient, especially if you run a big Paladin blob.
Who cares about regular Terminators when you still have Paladins available? That's where the money will be.
Objective secured matters if you're playing in a format that uses it. That is the main advantage of terminators over paladins.
Terminators are a bit expensive if all you're using them for is securing objectives.
Objective secured matters if you're playing in a format that uses it. That is the main advantage of terminators over paladins.
Objective Secured is a non rule especially on models that are 35+ points.
Exactly. It is one thing that they can actually do fairly well (stormshield + bolter loadout). But if you aren't playing in a format that is using Objective Secured then I agree they are pointless to use vs. Paladins.
Objective secured matters if you're playing in a format that uses it. That is the main advantage of terminators over paladins.
Objective Secured is a non rule especially on models that are 35+ points.
Exactly. It is one thing that they can actually do fairly well (stormshield + bolter loadout). But if you aren't playing in a format that is using Objective Secured then I agree they are pointless to use vs. Paladins.
How bad would a list of 3x10 bolter paladins, a dreadknight HQ, and a bunch of chaff Guard be? Thinking of putting together something big, tough and stupid.
Badablack wrote: How bad would a list of 3x10 bolter paladins, a dreadknight HQ, and a bunch of chaff Guard be? Thinking of putting together something big, tough and stupid.
Take Paladins or Termies.
My experience is that bolter shots (S4 AP-) often bounce off.
The improved Primaris can do everything better these days.
Well, I battled UM Primaris yesterday. Man. The UM are shooty. Damned.
This time with a GK battalion (2x GMNK, 3x5 Strikes), GK vanguard (1x TM, 3x Dreads with dual autocannons), and LoW detachment (1x Warden, 2x Armiger w/ autocannons).
UM managed to kill my Warden in turn 1. Nevertheless my autocannons were rather effective vs. Primaris (damage 2).
Hey guys, I’m getting back into the hobby after 15 years away. I bought some grey knights about 8 years ago but didn’t do much with them due to family commitments. Seems like a lot has changed in this edition and constantly rebalancing which is great depending on who you ask.
Just wondering, what do you guys think about terminators versus normal strikes as troops this edition? From the podcasts and info I’ve heard seems like Bolter spam is getting much better so the lack of shots would suck but the terminators staying power is much better then the average power armour joe. I own a storm raven, draigo, 5 interceptors and 5 paladins so far. Any feedback is much appreciated.
Well, termies vs. strikes. Termies are more durable and they can shoot their storm bolters with 4 shots each, while Strikes need to be within 12''.
I'd have a look at army lists at this thread.
The units you have are very useful.
Kharn_The_Betrayer_87 wrote: Hey guys, I’m getting back into the hobby after 15 years away. I bought some grey knights about 8 years ago but didn’t do much with them due to family commitments. Seems like a lot has changed in this edition and constantly rebalancing which is great depending on who you ask.
Just wondering, what do you guys think about terminators versus normal strikes as troops this edition? From the podcasts and info I’ve heard seems like Bolter spam is getting much better so the lack of shots would suck but the terminators staying power is much better then the average power armour joe. I own a storm raven, draigo, 5 interceptors and 5 paladins so far. Any feedback is much appreciated.
Getting 3 attacks on the charge is pretty boss, coupled with Bolter Discipline.
Batrep:
Fought again today. Vanguard Deployment. ITC Mission 2.
He won roll off, chose his side. I deployed first and went first.
I deployed the 3 Rhinos adjacent to one another in a line. Crowe stood on his own at the right end of the line. The Two Purgation Squads deployed left, on an objective, out of sight. In the teleportarium: Stern, Draigo, 3 Strike Squads.
Death Guard deployment: Pox Walkers cut off Deep Strikes on my right. His Engineer Pox Walkers took station on his objective (center right of me). The Daemon Prince stood next to them. His 3 PlagueBurst Crawlers were up front and ready to bring the pain, in position to bring their flamers to bear in a broken line across the front of his deployment, and then his Death Guard Marines filled the gaps between them with plenty of plasma goodness (3 per squad). His Captain stood to my far left with those Marines. Two other characters were interspersed, Psykers of some sort, giving him 3 with his Daemon Prince included. The Foetid Plague Drones prepped to surge forward and wreak havoc as well.
Turn 1:
Nothing Burger. I advanced all three Rhinos and popped Smoke. Only shots came from Green Squad (Purgation) who used Astral Aim to fire. I think I put a couple of wounds on the PLagueburst Crawler on my far left. Blue Squad (Purgation) came out of hiding but couldn't reach anyone, which was a mistake in retrospect. Not much happened outside of that.
IN his turn he brought his Plague Drones and plasam wielding Deathguard forth, blasting at the plating of my tanks. Crawlers also let loose on me. The Smoke Launchers paid dividends and it took some effort for him to crack the shell. I wisely had placed the Rhinos against Ruins, so that I coulddisembark into them. The net outcome was that I lost 2 to th death throes of the Rhino, but no one else was now able to shoot them other than the other Plagueburst Crawlers. So they collectively killed 4 of the 5 Purifiers in one of the Orange Combat Squads. Psyker powers were largely bounced.
The round went to the DeathGuard, 3-2
Turn 2:
The Purifiers catapulted themselves out of the Rhinos and into the enemy, getting as close as they could while Brother Captain Stern descended to bring his Psychic Locus into play to assist them. The Orange Combat Squads ascended a ruin level to see and exert pressure. Probably should have brought them out too but I knew I'd need some shooting help just in case and I overestimated myself in the Psyker phase. As things turned out I really should have come out to play. One Rhino veered left to help with the Captain and his buddies on the left while the other rhino streaked right to assist there and lock things up if necessary. Blue and Green Purgation Squads moved up again and maintained my rear objective. Castellan Crowe took station on level two on the center objective.
The Strike Squads all descended near the Plaguebuarst Crawler on the far right. So did Draigo, giving them re-rolls.
The Strike Squads all shot up Marines and then charged the Crawler on the right, barely enveloping it and making it pointless. The Yellow Combat Squads took to the middle, blasting the central units with Psychic fury and then shooting them and then charging them. Purple Combat Squads took on the left flank to limited success.
I failed three Psyker tests, but so much damage happened despite the mediocre Psycher phase (partially because everything seemed to have the Daemon Keyword) that the Purifiers were then able to shoot and charge a lot of the enemy and destroy huge chunks of it. Enemy overwatch and power fists took a toll and a significant number of Grey Knights fell to the heinous counter blows, which were fewer in number but seemingly highly effective. The Daemon Prince was smitten off the board.
On his turn his Power fists again had a very serious impact, and his Captain finally killed the last of the one Orange Combat Squad but not yet the others. His Psykers struck deadly blows and killed all but one of two different Combat Squads. However only two full units actually fell per se, and they were exposed.
Turn 3:
It was clear that the ensuing Devastation we were about to mount would be all consuming flame for him. He simply didn't have enough models to survive it and FAR too much of my forces were free to Psyker him and shoot him. Draigo and Crowe were about to enter the fray for realsies, and his best units were broken. After I moved all my units into killing position, he conceded. Tattered as my melee elements had become due to his effective counter punches, we were still just too potent to handle and he was going to lose most everything except for perhaps some Pox Walkers.
Hey guys, just getting back into the hobby so haven’t purchased all the current errata. Just a general question, does the updated chaplain rules in the new SM codex effect GK wherein I could give him that litany which adds 2 to charge distance, deep strike him in with draigo, apothecary and 8 to 10 paladins and start erasing things? Maybe even a brother captain with warlord fttf also? Thanks!
Kharn_The_Betrayer_87 wrote: Hey guys, just getting back into the hobby so haven’t purchased all the current errata. Just a general question, does the updated chaplain rules in the new SM codex effect GK wherein I could give him that litany which adds 2 to charge distance, deep strike him in with draigo, apothecary and 8 to 10 paladins and start erasing things? Maybe even a brother captain with warlord fttf also? Thanks!
No, unfortunately, until GK codex gets its update, GK Chaplain still can only give rerolls in combat phase, but does it automaticaly. No litanies for Knights of Titan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m thinking about not investing too much money in GK in case they get the Primaris treatment soon so leaning towards a sisters battalion with GK vanguard. What do you guys think in regards to effectiveness and legality of three five man paladin squads, draigo and a brother cap deepstriking in? The BC giving double smite range and by breaking the pallies into three units that 5 smites at double range.
Fought again today. Vanguard Deployment. ITC Mission 2.
Spoiler:
He won roll off, chose his side. I deployed first and went first.
I deployed the 3 Rhinos adjacent to one another in a line. Crowe stood on his own at th right end of the line. The Two Purgation Squads deployed left, on an objective, out of sight. In the teleportarium: Stern, Draigo, 3 Strike Squads.
Death Guard deployment: Pox Walkers cut off Deep Strikes on my right. His Engineer Pox Walkers took station on his objective (center right of me). The Daemon Prince stood next to them. His 3 PlagueBurst Crawlers were up front and ready to bring the pain, in position to bring their flamers to bear in a broken line across the front of his deployment, and then his Death Guard Marines filled the gaps between them with plenty of plasma goodness (3 per squad). His Captain stood to my far left with those Marines. Two other characters were interspersed, Psykers of some sort, giving him 3 with his Daemon Prince included. The Foetid Plague Drones prepped to surge forward and wreak havoc as well.
Turn 1:
Nothing Burger. I advanced all three Rhinos and popped Smoke. Only shots came from Green Squad (Purgation) who used Astral Aim to fire. I think I put a couple of wounds on the PLagueburst Crawler on my far left. Blue Squad (Purgation) came out of hiding but couldn't reach anyone, which was a mistake in retrospect. Not much happened outside of that.
IN his turn he brought his Plague Drones and plasam wielding Deathguard forth, blasting at the plating of my tanks. A Crawler also let loose on me. The Smoke Launchers paid dividends and it took some effort for him to crack the shell. I wisely had placed the Rhinos against ruins, so that I could disembark into them. The net outcome was that I lost 2 Purifiers to the death throes of the Rhino, but no one else was now able to shoot them other than the other Plagueburst Crawlers. So they collectively killed more of the Purifiers in one of the Orange Combat Squads, leaving one alive Enemy Psyker powers were largely bounced.
The round went to the DeathGuard, 3-2
Turn 2:
The Purifiers catapulted themselves out of the Rhinos and into the enemy, getting as close as they could while Brother Captain Stern descended to bring his Psychic Locus into play to assist them. The Orange Combat Squads ascended a ruin level to see and exert pressure. Probably should have brought them out too but I knew I'd need some shooting help just in case and I overestimated myself in the Psyker phase. As things turned out I really should have come out to play. One Rhino veered left to help with the Captain and his buddies on the left while the other rhino streaked right to assist there and lock things up if necessary. Blue and Green Purgation Squads moved up again and maintained my rear objective while contributing fire. Castellan Crowe took station on level two on the center objective to control more.
The Strike Squads all descended near the Plaguebuarst Crawler on the far right. So did Draigo, giving them re-rolls.
The Strike Squads all shot up Marines and then charged the Crawler on the right, barely enveloping it and making it immobile. The Yellow Combat Squads took to the middle, blasting the central units with Psychic fury and then shooting them and then charging them. Purple Combat Squads took on the left flank to limited success.
I failed three Psyker tests, but so much damage happened despite the mediocre Psycher phase (partially because everything seemed to have the Daemon Keyword) that the Purifiers were then able to shoot and charge a lot of the enemy and destroy huge chunks of it. Enemy overwatch and power fists took a toll and a significant number of Grey Knights fell to the heinous counter blows, which were fewer in number but seemingly highly effective. The Daemon Prince was smitten off the board.
On his turn his Power fists again had a very serious impact, and his Captain finally killed the last of the one Orange Combat Squad but not yet the others. His Psykers struck deadly blows and killed all but one of two different Combat Squads. However only two full combat squads actually fell per se, and the enemy were exposed.
Turn 3:
It was clear that the ensuing devastation we were about to mount would be all consuming flame for him. He simply didn't have enough models to survive my cleansing flame and FAR too much of my forces were free to shoot him with a rain of ultra accurate shots. Draigo and Crowe were about to enter the fray for realsies, and his best units were broken. After I moved all my units into killing position, he conceded. Tattered as my melee elements had become due to his effective counter punches, we were still just too potent to handle and he was going to lose most everything except for perhaps some Pox Walkers.
Grey Knight Victory 33-5
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay so I got two more games in today.
My take away thus far when it comes to Grey Knights is that you have got to REALLY make a lot of decisions when you are playing them. From Deployment to the littlest detail of positioning, it all matters two-fold and is magnified. You simply cannot afford to take losses one second sooner than you must with this force.
I had wanted a game against them, as they present pretty large challenges for Grey Knights. A lot of AP, and a lot of shots: two things Grey Knights don't like, so I wondered how I'd fare against them. The second game was against an Ultra Marine player using the new codex, so two big time challenges in one day.
We played Dawn of War ITC mission 3 (4 objectives, diamond formation)
The Ta'u force had 6 Broadsides and a Coldstar, a metric ton of fire warriors, some Pathfinder and other Markrlight units and a Crisis Team rocking the missiles (that was an unusual choice but apparently its to better deal with Primaris Marines, which made sense)
Turn 1
Grey Knights streaked forward, doing what we could to take cover in the bottom of the central ruins. I was very well hidden and remembered to pop smoke. Smoke played big, helping me take a lot more punishment and ultimately one Rhino went down but I was able to spill them into the building to protect them. The Cold Star failed its bid to kill anything and was exposed, so he took some Pathfinders and charged my Rhino to keep it in place and keep my Purifiers from getting any closer than necessary.
Turn 2
Surviving Rhinos split off, dumping their contents. The Purgation Squads had moved up last turn and did so again to pout on the fire. Orange Squad Jumped the left flank, Purple Squad jumped the Center while Yellow Squad stayed in the building to gank the Pathfinders, the Coldstar and then charge the enemy lines safely. The Grey KNights slew several units that turn, first with Cleansing Flame, then with purifying Bolters and Crackling Psycannons, and then full on rushes. Draigo dropped in on the right and charged Fire Warriors along with two of his erstwhile Strike Squads, while the 3rd Strike Squad alighted next to the central building. The pincer was closing in.
But Darkstrider is crafty and had his Fire Warriors drop back and blast the offending Grey Knights and a serious amount of them went away near the center of the action. To the left , the Tau flank was collapsed but on the right, the Fire Warriors tenaciously held on to the objective and put fire on the strike Squads with the Broadsides. The Crisis team tore at the Rhino that was threatening to lock things up.
3
Unable to repel the chargers well enough they surged again though this time many of them were simply out of range to be very effective with their smites. The Purgation Squads again moved forward to bring weight of fire down on the alien threat, while the Purifiers, tattered but largely still functional, pressed forward with Graigo further pressuring the right.
The Tau were now desperate. Forced to the center and barely holding out, they once again retreated, fired and did their gruesome work. Their results were fading but their spirit wasn't as the Ethereal zipped around trying to avoid entanglements. The Broadsides had been killed on all but the right flank at this point and the situation was dire. Not enough whole units of Purifiers had died and the next turn was going to be awash with flame, and they knew it.
4
As predicted, the Purifiers that remained brought Cleansing flame and washed a huge swath of the enemy away and then Draigo smashed into the Crisis team ending them. My right flank was clear other than the Broadsides and the characters of the Tau force aong with a couple Fire Warriors huddled in the middle.
The Tau, defiant, had a good round by finally finishing whole units off in numbers with very few resources left. However it was to be their last gasp as the Tau were subsequently swallowed to a man by the remaining forces. At this range the Purifiers that remained and Castellan Crowe as well as Draigo were indomitable.
This next game was ITC Mission 5 (Priority Objective) with pointy Hammer and Anvil deployment. I was already quite sure I was in trouble for the Ultramarines were here, flush with far too many Codex shenanigans to recount. I was swimming in rules soup the whole game.
I made him go first, as I wanted to figure out what he would do. I wasn't super sure his Thunderfire Cannon was enough to get First Strike, and I'd have a better chance of knowing when/if to go after objectives. He also had assault Marines and Devastators in Drop Pods, so it at least suggested an aggressive policy. Even a Land Raider to bring Veterans to the fight.
Spoiler:
1
He opted for "less aggressive", and used the Thunder fire Cannon and the Stratagem to roll an ABSURD amount of fire into my Blue Squad (5-man Purgation sqaud). I think he rolled like a total of 34 shots and landed enough to kill all six; and with Devastator Doctrine, it was -2 AP. That ended the debate on whether he could take them out. He did, with prejudice. A bit of a shock to the system, and also a Marked for Death target. Given my army build it ensured he would kill more as well. The Land Raider got to JUST within 24" range and put some wounds on the lead Rhino it could maneuver to see, Chapter Master turning it into an effective killing machine. It did 6 wounds on its own!
All that I COULD do was move the Orange Purifier Squad back to the rear right objective, and camp it from inside the Rhino which was an enormous waste of a resource but was the only answer to at least even the objectives held (and for future rounds). The other two Rhinos jetted to the left of the LOS blocking building to limit fire on themselves... and I made a critical error. I didn't pop smoke, as I had done so successfully against the T'au and immediately regretted it. Other than that, Green Squad (10-man Purgation squad) set on my left side objective in cover.
Tie on objectives, but couldn't make up the kill.
2
He adjusted his Engineers and pushed his veterans out of the land raider, then maneuvered it to get into juice range with his multi-melta, Chapter Master in tow. The first pod dropped with Lascannon Devastators into his own backfield, again playing it conservative. He wasn't going to get baited into the Purifiers et al. The Raider took 2 wounds off the Rhino with the big gun and then peppered the tank. I failed 6 more saves which was getting old and was avoidable given I had not popped smoke. His Devastators had to finish the job. Thunder fire Cannon rained death again with 26 more shots. Half of Yellow Squad was gone. The Vets then charged in, and killed the other half of Yellow Squad, right in front of Castellan Crowe. Another huge loss.
Purple Squad and Castellan Crowe as well as Draigo and Stern did considerable damage to the Land Raider with their Smites, then killed the Veterans that were left with Crowe. Draigo was able to pop the Chapter master with Psychic fury due to a great Deep Strike position. Then Draigo failed his charge at the Snipers above him.
While this was going on, Green Squad moved up in order to get some shots on the Land Raider as well, and it was down to 4 wounds. The three Strike Squads all alighted in on my left side and charged the Engineers deep in his territory dead to a man. They had been holding his Priority Objective, giving me the Bonus point. The Strike Squads were now much safer and in the cover of ruins. Orange Squad just quietly waited in their Rhino holding the objective to the rear. Crowe had no choice and charged the Land Raider to nerf its shooting next turn and took three wounds trying. Not great, but necessary.
3
Devastators took out the last Rhino with Land Raider help after it fell back (Ultramarines can do that). A drop pod with more Devastators (Heavy Bolters) dropped at the back and center of my deployment zone halfway between Green and Orange Squad with Tactical Doctrines activated. The Assault Marines Deep struck in and nabbed a corner spot in my rear zone towards green Squad, hoping to take minimal overwatch to charge.
The Thunderfire Cannon took aim and shot about 28 times into half of Purple Squad, killing them. The Land Raider also fired its cannons at Draigo and…to my utter disgust… took all but one wound from him. I couldn’t believe the luck. All bad for me it seemed in this game. But it was what it was.
At this stage his Devastators in his own backfield also shot their bolters into the Strike Squad in cover. And I failed 5 out of 5 saves, from 12 Bolter shots. Absurd. It wasn’t enough to stop me from being on the objective though. 5 of his scouts came over to get as close as they could but it wasn’t enough. He threw his Engineers at me but I killed them. No more Engineer points for him.
The Heavy Bolter Devastators laced into the Rhino holding my rear objective and almost killed it. The Assault Marines who alighted failed their charge on Green Squad, perhaps the best news of the day so far. Castellan Crowe, as brave as he was, was shot dead in the streets.
The Grey Knights saw their leader go down and rallied what little strength they had. The Strike Squads to the left on the Bonus objective destroyed the Scouts that were trying to take the objective while a few more managed to charge his Devastators in his backfield trying to pin them against the board edge and stop them from getting away or shooting. The Flamers of the Inquisition are no trifling matter, and did work on overwatch and on the offense!
Draigo tore apart the Snipers above him and prepared to end the scouts below next turn. Brother Captain Stern was about all that was left midfield and so he moved into the building for cover and then failed to get his smite off. He desperately tried to get a charge into the Land Raider as Crowe had done and made it, taking another wound off of it but then taking an absurd number in return. Not going well… Either way, the enemy backfield was torn up and feeling the pressure. If the scouts and Marines in front of Craigo didn’t kill Draigo, he would certainly kill them and claim their objective! As it was, we controlled 3 tenuously. The Green Squad shot up the Assault Marines with Astral Aim, but amazingly only killed 4. Disappointing.
4
Thunderfire Cannon killed Purple Squads remnants finally with a big barrage of shots, fueled by a Psyker power that gave him a Command Point (he was out) which he used to fuel the Thunderfire Cannon again. The Land Raider pulled away from Brother Captain Stern and killed him as well as shooting at Green Squad (Purgation) to little effect, who were still holding the objective against the Assault Marine advance. His Heavy Bolter Squad took aim and whittled Green Squad down to size.
The Assault Squad ran at and destroyed the Green Purgation Squad, giving them the Objective there. The Devastators moved away from their two remaining Grey Knight tormentors and then killed the ones holding the Bonus objective. Dunno how he finagled it to allow them to get loose but I didn’t argue it. They now had reaffirmed their control of their Primary Objective at great cost and the Strike Squads were destroyed once and for all.
Draigo and His Knights prepared for another push. With the Snipers dead he dropped a Vortex of Doom on the Tactical Marines, killing three of them and taking 3 wounds from Tigurius. Then he went to use Purge Sould on Tigurius… and rolled double 1’s. Instead of swooping down and decimating everything on his turn, he died to a miscast… It was heart breaking. The enemy really had nothing left there to stop Draigo from controlling that objective, so it was a big deal.
Orange Squad had bided its time long enough and poured from the Rhino towards the Heavy Bolter Devastators in my backfield. Their bolters and Psycannons ripped up 3 Marines, a little disappointing but the Rhino did add two more to it.
5
Predictably the Thunderfire Cannon nailed half of Orange Squad with another blizzard of shots but because of cover and no Devastator Doctrines, we managed to lose only 3 of the Psicannon side of the unit. A small miracle perhaps. The Land Raider really wasn’t fast enough anymore to xoom into better firing position so largely the tatters of his forces stood their posts otherwise, sort of wondering why they weren’t dead by Draigos hand.
Orange Squad tracked down and murdered the Heavy Bolter Devs that were left and then the Drop Pod itself was wrecked. The 7 Remaining members of Orange Squad stood looking at the ruins where the Assault Squad was, waiting for an epic end. They dared the Assault Squad to leave their ill gotten objective and face the Grey Knights as men.
6
The Assault Squad honor was to indeed launch forth and fight them, The battle was fierce but the Grey Knights fell. The Thunderfire Cannon killed the two man Psycannon half of Orange Squad with only 9 shots, the most pedestrian amount he rolled all night.
At this time the only thing left on the board for the Grey Knights was the damaged Rhino and it had no shots so it stayed at its post, and guarded the objective that it could. It had one Hit point left on it but one was enough.
27-19 Victory but WAIT… It wasn’t. IN ALL six turns, my opponent had used 8D6 instead of 8D3 shots on the Thunderfire Cannon (stratatgem to fire twice)! The heinous amounts of losses it wracked up over the course of the game were entirely false and inflated numbers. As it was, the 5 point round he had turn one wouldn’t have likely happened and so on. So many more Smites would have gone off, killing the LR, and so on.
My opponent agreed that his misunderstanding of the Thunderfire Cannon probably indicates that it was really a loss for him given what I could have and would have done without those losses. He also may have used 1CP instead of 2 to fuel it after using his Psyker to get him a CP back.
Grey Knight Victory by Ultramarine concession. A Rematch is therefore in order.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m thinking about not investing too much money in GK in case they get the Primaris treatment soon so leaning towards a sisters battalion with GK vanguard. What do you guys think in regards to effectiveness and legality of three five man paladin squads, draigo and a brother cap deepstriking in? The BC giving double smite range and by breaking the pallies into three units that 5 smites at double range.
While I have 2k in GK this is what I plan to do next for a little bit but I am only gonna run 2x 5 man pally with Bro Captain stern, ancient, and apothecary. Paladins get expensive fast and while driago brings some good beatdown I want to focus more on Paladin use. Plus the relic banner is too hard to pass up for me when a bro Captain is near. I find sisters and some good exorcist range and the invulnerable getting boosted makes them a great anchor point.
I’m running paladins as well, but taking them in squads of 10. That way I can either keep them as a single nasty unit that seems like a counter for the enemy list, or combat squad them so all the special weapons can be consolidated for psychic onslaught.
What’s opinions on the best assassin to cover GK weaknesses? I kinda want to take a vindicare for easy means of activating the CP gaining stratagem, but a Callidus looks like it can greatly help survivability just by reducing the amount of nasty stratagems coming at us turn 1.
Badablack wrote: I’m running paladins as well, but taking them in squads of 10. That way I can either keep them as a single nasty unit that seems like a counter for the enemy list, or combat squad them so all the special weapons can be consolidated for psychic onslaught.
What’s opinions on the best assassin to cover GK weaknesses? I kinda want to take a vindicare for easy means of activating the CP gaining stratagem, but a Callidus looks like it can greatly help survivability just by reducing the amount of nasty stratagems coming at us turn 1.
I took 3 Vindicare Assassins in my force at 1250 (escalation league thing). It was amazingly nice to have that range to force engagement.
A lot of people talk about doing that to cheapen up the troops costs. I dunno anyone who ever actually did it.
I mean, Paladins and Interceptors don't exactly SUCK but they're not really good either. With the old skool 3rd codex, all my troops were the Stormtroopers with the Elites being Terminators. Two battalions of Storm Troopers and supporting Paladins sounds like it could be at least fun.
Yeah it’s a rough choice, I don’t want a bland tank and guard army just for the sake of cp and scions really remind me of the old daemon hunters codex with the storm trooper options. On the other hand scions are basically suicide squads so not sure. Crimson fists are looking appealing though from a cool perspective.
Scions don't HAVE to be a suicidal thing. They're cheap enough with enough offensive output you can certainly build around using them as the majority of a list. Probably do two Battalions with 3 max deep striking and 3 in Taurox and then a Vanguard of Grey Knights with 3 Ven Gun Dreads and three ×5 Paladins.
I can help with a rough draft as I don't work tomorrow but it'll be rough, remember that.
Kharn_The_Betrayer_87 wrote: Yeah it’s a rough choice, I don’t want a bland tank and guard army just for the sake of cp and scions really remind me of the old daemon hunters codex with the storm trooper options. On the other hand scions are basically suicide squads so not sure. Crimson fists are looking appealing though from a cool perspective.
Scions in cover with either Psychic Barrier or Take Cover are rocking a 2+ save. Play them right and they can weather a surprising amount of fire.
This one has the more old skool Daemon Hunters feel to it mostly because of Grey Knights being the supporting element. However in the making of this list I didn't include Inquisitors mostly because they're getting something in the new White Dwarf I guess so we gotta wait for that update.
This one has the more old skool Daemon Hunters feel to it mostly because of Grey Knights being the supporting element. However in the making of this list I didn't include Inquisitors mostly because they're getting something in the new White Dwarf I guess so we gotta wait for that update.
Have you considered a Brother Captain with Purge Soul dropping out of reserves with an Ancient with the relic banner (Banner of Refining Flame)? The +1 to leadership helps the purge soul and the BC's psychic locus gives the banner a 12" super smite. Perfect for dropping out of deep strike.
This one has the more old skool Daemon Hunters feel to it mostly because of Grey Knights being the supporting element. However in the making of this list I didn't include Inquisitors mostly because they're getting something in the new White Dwarf I guess so we gotta wait for that update.
Nice mate that’s a sweet list. What’s the advantage of the volley guns on the command squad over plasmas?
This one has the more old skool Daemon Hunters feel to it mostly because of Grey Knights being the supporting element. However in the making of this list I didn't include Inquisitors mostly because they're getting something in the new White Dwarf I guess so we gotta wait for that update.
Nice mate that’s a sweet list. What’s the advantage of the volley guns on the command squad over plasmas?
They're used solely for camping home objectives. What you would theoretically be doing is rushing 2 squads of the Scions up in the Taurox and keep the other two max squads in Deep Strike. Then things drop and you maximize the effectiveness of orders. Paladins drop too and that's all she wrote.
The list would likely be better with Interceptors though for movement. That's not classic Grey Knights though and Paladins are more durable at least.
So there isn't really an inherent advantage to the Volley Gun Command Squads outside it's cheaper camping with 16 shots going off all the time.
Thinking of trying out a teleporting Land Raider Crusader full of 2x5 Purifiers, a Relic Banner Ancient, Brother-Captain and Crowe. I’ll also have a Knight Titan and a Lascannon Land Raider to hopefully eat any turn 1 shots and leave it alive.
Assuming they don’t get blown up immediately that’s 4d6+1 smite wounds, then vortex and purge soul. I kinda want to give the Captain the +1 leadership warlord trait just to make purge soul stronger too.
Anyone have any luck getting this to work? I can’t imagine it would more than once before the opponent caught on.
Badablack wrote: I kinda want to give the Captain the +1 leadership warlord trait just to make purge soul stronger too.
There is nonesuch warlord trait, but the Banner does give +1 to leadership.
There is: it's called "Inspiring Leader" and it's one of the three generic traits that all armies have access to. Those three are just very rarely used.
Badablack wrote: I kinda want to give the Captain the +1 leadership warlord trait just to make purge soul stronger too.
There is nonesuch warlord trait, but the Banner does give +1 to leadership.
There is: it's called "Inspiring Leader" and it's one of the three generic traits that all armies have access to. Those three are just very rarely used.
Sorry for being the fool, but where do I get to read these? The rulebook?
Badablack wrote: I kinda want to give the Captain the +1 leadership warlord trait just to make purge soul stronger too.
There is nonesuch warlord trait, but the Banner does give +1 to leadership.
There is: it's called "Inspiring Leader" and it's one of the three generic traits that all armies have access to. Those three are just very rarely used.
Sorry for being the fool, but where do I get to read these? The rulebook?
yup. Just the standard ones you can take from the main rulebook if you want. Kinda like the bog standard stratagems everyone gets access to.
Badablack wrote: Thinking of trying out a teleporting Land Raider Crusader full of 2x5 Purifiers, a Relic Banner Ancient, Brother-Captain and Crowe. I’ll also have a Knight Titan and a Lascannon Land Raider to hopefully eat any turn 1 shots and leave it alive.
Assuming they don’t get blown up immediately that’s 4d6+1 smite wounds, then vortex and purge soul. I kinda want to give the Captain the +1 leadership warlord trait just to make purge soul stronger too.
Anyone have any luck getting this to work? I can’t imagine it would more than once before the opponent caught on.
The issue with the Land Raider isn't that it can blow up. In fact, they actually take a decent amount to kill them.
The issue, rather, is they're a big model that can't drive over even a single Gaunt or Cultist that might be in the way. Stormraven would probably be the best way to go about it, but they're even more expensive now.
Will a new Inquisitors help us? Seems like a good way to help generate cp. Is there any other use of inquisitors? I noticed acolytes get the character keyword if it is just one model. Sounds like an 8pt obj holder to me.
BillyN831 wrote: Are brother-captains, strike squads, and grand master in nemesis dreadknights still among the best grey knight units?
Brother Captains are ok. I'd rather have an Apothecary, who still has character protection, WS2+, and can heal himself. Give him the Destroyer and you have a mini Draigo!
GKSS are only good in that they fill out a battalion. Otherwise, they are bad. Termies are actually better, but are much more expensive.
I'd say the top three units in the book are GMDK, Draigo, and shooty Ven Dread. I once had my Las/Missile Dread one-shot a Leman Russ from behind a wall! Yes I realise it won't happen again...but still!
BillyN831 wrote: Are brother-captains, strike squads, and grand master in nemesis dreadknights still among the best grey knight units?
I'm not using any Grand Master Nemesis Knights. But they do seem pretty good. I own two (another unassembled). I've liked their performance against my armies although I've always managed to kill them. I don't HONESTLY know if there's a really great GK army out there. It's such an uphill army to play. Never have I had to think very carefully more than with the GK. I suppose on some level I love the challenge. But in the ITC, there are literally twice as many Sisters of Battle Players this season than GK. That's...saying something.
I've actually got a nice little psychic bomb I like and used for a while. It's a bro-capt (I even use stern here) with purge soul and ancient with banner of flame. They both teleport strike and start dealing mortal wounds. Banner of flame+purge soul (with+1 leadership from banner)+smite (if stern). I've had these two swing games.
Not uncommon for them to wipe squads. I don't built a list without them.
I'm not sure why a Brother Captain is 5 points more than Brother Captain Stern, when Stern can cast two powers while the regular BC can only cast 1. X_X Do you think it's because the regular one is a better platform for special weapons?
The new Inquisition is, overall, a disappointment. No DCA, no Crusaders, no fun grenades. Jokaeros are a single model unit, although they are only 18pts.
However, you can slot a single Inquisitor into your list and it doesn’t break CT or battle-forged.
For 1CP, after an enemy Character is destroyed within 3” of your Inquisition unit, gain d3 CP, and all enemy Ld is -1 for the remainder of the battle.
You can also spend 1CP pre-game to give that Inquisitor a WL trait (if he isn’t your WL) and a relic (if he isn’t a named character already).
Coteaz is 90pts, his trait is, “Know and cast an extra power; deny an extra time.” He can base cast 2 deny 1. His special ability is “One time, make an opponent’s strat cost an additional CP, or else it can’t be played.” He gets reroll hits and wounds against CHAOS and DAEMON. For 1CP, he can give another unit reroll hits of 1 against those targets.
Eisenhorn+Daemonhost is 105pts, his trait is, “Once per round, reroll one of the following: hit, wound, damage, save, Psychic, or DtW.” He can cast 2 deny 2. His summoned Daemonhost is S6 T6 W6 A5 Character. When next to Eisenhorn, it gets WS3+ and 4++.
So which one would you take? The Daemonhost looks like a nice little midfield hunter, although it couldn’t do much against anything serious. Coteaz’s Spy Network ability could really mess up an opponent’s plan for his final two CP (now that Interrupt costs 3, and oh bummer you don’t have enough.)
Elric Greywolf wrote: The new Inquisition is, overall, a disappointment. No DCA, no Crusaders, no fun grenades. Jokaeros are a single model unit, although they are only 18pts.
However, you can slot a single Inquisitor into your list and it doesn’t break CT or battle-forged.
For 1CP, after an enemy Character is destroyed within 3” of your Inquisition unit, gain d3 CP, and all enemy Ld is -1 for the remainder of the battle.
You can also spend 1CP pre-game to give that Inquisitor a WL trait (if he isn’t your WL) and a relic (if he isn’t a named character already).
Coteaz is 90pts, his trait is, “Know and cast an extra power; deny an extra time.” He can base cast 2 deny 1. His special ability is “One time, make an opponent’s strat cost an additional CP, or else it can’t be played.” He gets reroll hits and wounds against CHAOS and DAEMON. For 1CP, he can give another unit reroll hits of 1 against those targets.
Eisenhorn+Daemonhost is 105pts, his trait is, “Once per round, reroll one of the following: hit, wound, damage, save, Psychic, or DtW.” He can cast 2 deny 2. His summoned Daemonhost is S6 T6 W6 A5 Character. When next to Eisenhorn, it gets WS3+ and 4++.
So which one would you take? The Daemonhost looks like a nice little midfield hunter, although it couldn’t do much against anything serious. Coteaz’s Spy Network ability could really mess up an opponent’s plan for his final two CP (now that Interrupt costs 3, and oh bummer you don’t have enough.)
New post up on Warhammer Community talking about CA2019 points costs. GK strike marines are coming down to 17 ppm “kitted” and terminators to 35 ppm. Nothing about any other changes.
Well, we always take 3x5 strike squads for the battalion, right?so this actually benefits us greatly!
We might even find room to use terminators.
I welcome the change instead of bitching about it
Aeri wrote: Well, we always take 3x5 strike squads for the battalion, right?so this actually benefits us greatly!
We might even find room to use terminators.
I welcome the change instead of bitching about it
For a 2000 points army, assuming that they won´t change the character points A battalion with 6 strike squads , a vanilla brother captain and a cheap tech-marine will cost less than 700 points and will be throwing 8 MW at 24".
Two battalions like this will be able the pop 16 MW each turn and will leave enough room to fit a lascanon landrider and two dakka ven dread. Leaving enough CP to do whatever we want.
But I´m thinking more on to have a double battalion with 2x5 strike man squad + 5 terminators + bro captain + techmarine which will leave almost 1000 spare points to play around and enough commands points to use a decent amount of times head the prognosticar, psibolt ammo and psi onslaught strats.
Also if we want to go all terminators, as they are troops, we will be able to drop 9 units of terminators in a double battalion delivering 13 MW per turn and still have 100 spare points to use, countering in this way the plasma spam with the terminator spam .
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Strikes at 17 points isn't the worst deal in the world. They still can't get anywhere though, and the heavy weapons suck as usual.
I'm still holding out hope for Psychic Awakening to give us something after seeing what blood angels got...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Strikes at 17 points isn't the worst deal in the world. They still can't get anywhere though, and the heavy weapons suck as usual.
I'm still holding out hope for Psychic Awakening to give us something after seeing what blood angels got...
Hoping in line with what other chapters are getting, like a second part to our "chapter tactic."
Hoping for access to combat doctrines. Devastator doctrine active, we can get 4x psilencers hitting at str 5 ap-2. That can chew through a lot. But tactical would be where we would shine with all those storm bolters being ap-1. Then talking psybolts, imaging 40 str 5 ap-2 bolter shots. That will threaten just about anything. That combined with the Terminator price, I may be tempted to bring a unit if 10.
And if blood angels got better at assault, I would assume gk get better at psychic.
Praying to the emperor that gw doesn't give us another anti demon thing.
No, but we will have more firepower now. Can fit in more special weapons. Looking at the pts, I can squeeze almost 200 pts out of my list. That's one squad could be, with a little shuffling around, more threat saturation.
Also, our psychic Awakening book is around the corner, so expect some updates as well. I bet we get something akin to a second stat in our chapter tactic and access to our own unique doctrines at a minimum.
Would also expect to also see updates for the Chaplin as well which could make us more effective at getting into combat.
Yeah, I’ve said it before but ultimately our hope is in psychic awakening. The points cuts are nice, and do give us more firepower (another dreadnought, 40 more storm bolter shots, etc). It’s not insignificant, but it’s really going to come down to us getting other boosts to either our damage output or durability.
My secret, horrible fear is that we will get...The Psychic Doctrine! While in the psychic doctrine, we get +1 AP on our psychic powers, or something equally worthless. Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
What is nice about these new prices is that a PAGK no long pay for heavy weapons on top of the storm bolter and weapons. Terminators heavy weapons are significantly more useful with heavy weapons as well. These are nice.
After hearing about all the buffs tyranids just received, I am now getting hopeful.
greyknight12 wrote: Yeah, I’ve said it before but ultimately our hope is in psychic awakening. The points cuts are nice, and do give us more firepower (another dreadnought, 40 more storm bolter shots, etc). It’s not insignificant, but it’s really going to come down to us getting other boosts to either our damage output or durability.
My secret, horrible fear is that we will get...The Psychic Doctrine! While in the psychic doctrine, we get +1 AP on our psychic powers, or something equally worthless. Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Now that you mention it, I'm kind of liking a Psychic Doctrine buff rather than a Copy+Paste Combat Doctrine system. Obviously the execution of the alternative shouldn't be useless but have DA get their Combat Doctrines while we get something more distinct.
Combat Doctrines can be used from T1-T3, while our Psychic Doctrine would buffs us every psychic phase (question is what would that be tho)...
Yup. I wouldn't mind being able to have doctrines, but instead of normal doctrine, have a psychic doctrine. What I would think is fun is a psychic doctrine where all units learn a new power based on the active doctrine. This new power can be cast by everyone with no 'rule of one' limitations. All being wc 5 or 6. They should be in line with the space Marines Dex but a little more powerful to reflect the psychic might (and chance to fail). This power can also be cast in addition to another power.
Example
devastator doctrine - everyone can cast a power changing the profiles on heavy weapons to -1ap +1damage.
Tactical doctrine - everyone can cast a psybolts type power giving -1ap +1 damage to bolters/storm bolters.
Assault - give a force effect changing all weapons from 1d3 damage to 1d6 damage.
These powers would help vs demons and everyone else.
It looks like other armies are getting new psychic powers/strategms/relics.
Looks like other armies are getting ways to make their army perform in their unique role.
Really want to see the librarian and Chaplin become useful.
Would also love to see Draigo get an updated model (long shot here I know).
I did the math on the list I took to LVO 2018...it comes out to 1630ish points after 2 years of price cuts. Or to put it a different way, I’ll be playing 2k games with what used to be a 2450 pt list.
I played a game vs a grey knight player yesterday, 2000 pts. I played black templars. I ended up winning, but it was an interesting matchup. We plan on replaying next week once the price drops are in our hands thanks to chapter approved but when I added his army up using the screen grabs from YouTube reviews his list next week will be 1833 vs mine staying 2000 pts. I am pretty interested in how these other armies will be able to take advantage of such a huge new savings.
He had Crowe, a brother captain, 3x purifier squads min size, a 9 man inceptor squad, an apothecary, an ancient, a 6 man paladin squad, a grand master in nemesis armor, draigo, a land raider crusader, and a rhino. Some interesting stuff, for sure. Those purifiers were nasty, even with my 5+++ vs mortals it wasn't an easy fight.
The turning point was when I killed draigo, I had disembarked an assault terminator squad from a land raider crusader of my own and was about to charge in and lay waist to his paladin squad when I realized that draigo was a mere inch further away to their side and open to charge. So I charged him instead and did just enough wounds to kill him. Losing access to full rerolls really cut down on the output of the grey knights and from that point on it was templar faith stronger than grey knight fury.
I know he plans on redoing his list with the points drops to get a battalion in there, grey knights are just so cp starved most the time but he doesnt want to soup anything in. (Cant blame him, I dont like to soup either).
A trick that caught me completely off guard and made me incredibly jealous was the inceptor squad. He had them in the rhino, t1 it moved forward/advanced/popped smoke. I had to focus on the baby carrier and the land raider crusader with 15 purifiers in it so it was pretty safe. T2 the guys jumped out and were so fast getting across the table at that point that I was not prepared to take their assault and it cost me valuable time and resources dealing with them. Definitely a neat trick and one my assault marines cant do.
Smotejob wrote: Yup. I wouldn't mind being able to have doctrines, but instead of normal doctrine, have a psychic doctrine. What I would think is fun is a psychic doctrine where all units learn a new power based on the active doctrine. This new power can be cast by everyone with no 'rule of one' limitations. All being wc 5 or 6. They should be in line with the space Marines Dex but a little more powerful to reflect the psychic might (and chance to fail).
and chances of peril. Don´t forget that brother. Don't you forget it as we have already lost countless valuable brothers due to the psychic fatigue. May they souls dwells under the protection of the emperor.
More precisely, the chances of peril at least once every 12 casts is: 1-(1-2/36)^12 = 49.63 %
Give me copy pasta doctrines and the super doctrine be in the tactical doctrine grey knight units give -1 save to all daemon units and get +1 to all advance and charge moves.
I think GK smite needs to match thousand sons smite rules. For baby smite a 10+ is d3 mortals. Characters obviously need true smite as well. If these changes aren't implemented it is clear that whoever made the rules had no interest in making GK viable.
Xenomancers wrote: I think GK smite needs to match thousand sons smite rules. For baby smite a 10+ is d3 mortals. Characters obviously need true smite as well. If these changes aren't implemented it is clear that whoever made the rules had no interest in making GK viable.
What GK need are bespoke powers like they used to have so that the units that would actually utilize them actually have a purpose, and then we completely rework the Sanctic table.
It’s a double 1 or double 6, not a 2 or 12. Brotherhood of Psykers adds 1 to the result, not to any specific dice roll. Even if it did add to the individual dice, you could add it to the 6 you rolled and not the 5.
So +1 to cast doesn’t cause you to perils on an 11. Otherwise no one would use Magnus in chaos lists (+4 to cast).
Wouldn't make much difference given how much shooting has multiple wounds. Thats one reason Terminators are kinda meh even with the move to 2 wounds. So much stuff still just kills them the same as it did in previous editions.
Smotejob wrote: If our Chaplin gets the litany table, will the Chaplin become usable, or dare I say good?
No because Jump Pack Chap > Termi Chap, and that most of the litanies don't do much for the army to be honest. Yeah the bonus to charges is cold and that's it.
I’ve played about 6 games since CA with grey knights, and the points changes have helped a little bit. I can squeeze 2 full squads of Paladins with psilencers into a soup army now, with Draigo and an apothecary. Combat squad‘ing the Paladins gives me 2 5-man beatstick units in deepstrike with the rest next to Draigo putting out a ton of psilencer shots, preferably in cover.
Something that would REALLY help the GK army would be the master of the forge tech marine upgrade. For GMDK to move and hit on 2's and even a regular DK moving and hitting on 3's RR 1's would be huge.
Call me Crazy but I like the Command LR points drops. A 5++ so you don't get insta deleted - plus a grav cannon to add into your astral aim mix is REALLY nice. A great place to put a few purgation squads.
If there is any kind of tactical doctrine like in codex marines I think strikes could become our top tier unit. 40 AP-1 shots is nothing to sneeze at - especially when you can go str 5 ap-2 with stratagem.
Something I'd really like to see is PAGK Characters with the ability to take Interceptor Jump Packs. Seems like it would be a nice little riff of Phobos Primaris marines and give GK more flexibility.
HQ Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 214pts]
Selections: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 214pts]
Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary, Warlord
Troops
Strike Squad [7 PL, 85pts]
Selections: Gate of Infinity
4x Grey Knight (Sword)
Selections: 4x Nemesis Force Sword, 4x Storm Bolter
Grey Knight Justicar
Selections: Storm bolter
Nemesis Force Sword
Selections: Nemesis Force Sword
^ I'd say Draigo is a good investment for the re-rolls of 1s and 2s, and a BrotherCap to maximize your MSU smite output to 24" range, to compliment your mass stormbolters.
Badablack wrote: It might not matter for your local games, but riflemen dreads got punted into Legends. No more dual auto cannon options unfortunately.
Thanks. I know.
In pickup games it doesn't matter. GK is my pickup army atm. Because my opponents often complain about power gaming from my side.
I wouldn't attend a tourney with GK these days.
Draigo is certainly worth a thought. But I'd also consider 3 Invictors led by a Techmarine. I have fully painted 3 models. But wait, power gaming? I'll rethink about it.
The tactics is rather clear. The army hides in turn 1 as much as possible - Dreads, Techmarines and Interceptors start on the field.
In turn 2, the Strikes and GMNK's deep strike and the Interceptors shunt. This gives me a lot of storm bolter shots.
Recently, I played a unit of Paladins which also started on the field and used the gate in turn 2 to move forward.
It certainly gives me an overweight in my turn 2, but some armies are too resilient against storm bolters.
Nevertheless, if everything works well, I can bring in round 2 all weapons to bear!
What I appreciate is that the army is about 200 pts cheaper at the 2000 pts level. It would give a much larger Paladin squad. In the last game vs. CMS they were dead in round 2 - three wounds per model didn't save them.
Here is the 2000 pt list with Draigo + Paladins:
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [151 PL, 1,995pts]
I don’t think paladins are worth it. If you want tough 3W infantry, Custodes are better for the points. What we have are high damage-output infantry with innate deepstrike. I still think that spamming strike squads and interceptors is probably better than a paladin blob; a lot depends on what psychic awakening gives us though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played a game with basically the same list I took to LVO two years ago, it went down to 1628 points. I added paladins, draigo, and a ven dread. Long story short, I merely had 350 extra points for my opponent (pure drukhari) to kill. I'm holding off until PA to really start building.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t think paladins are worth it. If you want tough 3W infantry, Custodes are better for the points. What we have are high damage-output infantry with innate deepstrike. I still think that spamming strike squads and interceptors is probably better than a paladin blob; a lot depends on what psychic awakening gives us though.
Well, that's too unfluffy for me.
I know that Paladines die too easily.
I could imagine 2 Armiger Hellglaives.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t think paladins are worth it. If you want tough 3W infantry, Custodes are better for the points. What we have are high damage-output infantry with innate deepstrike. I still think that spamming strike squads and interceptors is probably better than a paladin blob; a lot depends on what psychic awakening gives us though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played a game with basically the same list I took to LVO two years ago, it went down to 1628 points. I added paladins, draigo, and a ven dread. Long story short, I merely had 350 extra points for my opponent (pure drukhari) to kill. I'm holding off until PA to really start building.
Cistodes are better, but if we are talking about Grey Knights themselves, there's simply no reason to pick Terminators over Paladins.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t think paladins are worth it. If you want tough 3W infantry, Custodes are better for the points. What we have are high damage-output infantry with innate deepstrike. I still think that spamming strike squads and interceptors is probably better than a paladin blob; a lot depends on what psychic awakening gives us though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played a game with basically the same list I took to LVO two years ago, it went down to 1628 points. I added paladins, draigo, and a ven dread. Long story short, I merely had 350 extra points for my opponent (pure drukhari) to kill. I'm holding off until PA to really start building.
Cistodes are better, but if we are talking about Grey Knights themselves, there's simply no reason to pick Terminators over Paladins.
Agreed, I’m also saying there’s not a reason to pick terminators either. I just think the damage output from power armored dudes is better and worth the survivablity decrease. But again. Psychic awakening is right around the corner.
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
Seconded.
But I also like the GMNK as this guy is something my opponents fear when they arrive at the battle field in round 2 - close and personal.
Agreed.
Draigo hits hard, buffs hard, is hard to budge (3++, W7 and Character protection), and is solid in the Psychic phase (2 casts and 2 DtW) too!
GoI Draigo in the middle of a group of 20 GK Infantry and he will make sure you're re-rolling those 1s and 2s for either your 40-80 bolter shots...or up to 96 psilencer shots (both types of shooting which can be improved with our ammo/onslaught stratagems).
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
Seconded.
But I also like the GMNK as this guy is something my opponents fear when they arrive at the battle field in round 2 - close and personal.
Agreed.
Draigo hits hard, buffs hard, is hard to budge (3++, W7 and Character protection), and is solid in the Psychic phase (2 casts and 2 DtW) too!
GoI Draigo in the middle of a group of 20 GK Infantry and he will make sure you're re-rolling those 1s and 2s for either your 40-80 bolter shots...or up to 96 psilencer shots (both types of shooting which can be improved with our ammo/onslaught stratagems).
Draigo is super flexible too! He is great as a force boost with Aura and psychic powers. He can also operate on his own as well as a psychic bomb/flank. While I don't suggest that often, I've had him weasel his way into a back line by himself and tear through gun lines with his psychic might and his arm.
He is fantastic as a counter charge unit vs something big. He can realistically put quite a few wounds on something like a Knight or another scary melee unit.
Want to see a demon primarch die? He does that. They all run in terror from him. (Looking at you Mortarian).
And for what he does, he is very reasonable in price.
This dude does it all except be there warlord. He sucks as a warlord.
greyknight12 wrote: I don’t think paladins are worth it. If you want tough 3W infantry, Custodes are better for the points. What we have are high damage-output infantry with innate deepstrike. I still think that spamming strike squads and interceptors is probably better than a paladin blob; a lot depends on what psychic awakening gives us though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played a game with basically the same list I took to LVO two years ago, it went down to 1628 points. I added paladins, draigo, and a ven dread. Long story short, I merely had 350 extra points for my opponent (pure drukhari) to kill. I'm holding off until PA to really start building.
I gotta agree. I took a 10 man paladin in my last game and It's impact was so low 4 heavies and 4 hammers. For the price you get 3 NDK now with max build...I mean...It's really no comparison. Also the 25ish interceptors would have been a lot better too.
Interceptors I think are really priced well now. I want to start running 30 of them.
Then -IF- we get a Chaplin who can use litanies, who can improve charges (comeon PA!), then give him GOI and teleport him up too. Make him warlord for reroll charge.
In that one guy we will have +2 charge, reroll charge, reroll attacks in CC from 31 bodies. Bring an inqy in the army to bring the ability to deny overwatch. Laugh on turn one when all those bodies get into cc and crush our foes. Orks will be jealous of our speed and cc output.
And as we start into a heavier CC meta, that mobility will be very useful. Even more so when they get doctrines.
Either way, I think they are very useful at this price point. Even now, them hitting a flank early with a teleported gm for rerolls is a lot of bolter hate. Further you could add to their survivability by teleporting a metal bawks to block line of sight from retaliation.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah, Interceptors and Paladins (well compared to other things) seem to be the strong suit. Not counting GM Dreadknights of course.
At least that one quickie list I put together for that one poster will have went down significantly in points. I definitely want to see how that goes.
Both, Interceptors and Strikes are equally useful.
Let the Strikes deep strike in round 2 and let the Interceptors shunt in round 2 and keep them out of sight as much as possible in round 1.
Paladins die too easily. My experience in my last game vs. Chaos. If the enemy has too many multi-wound weapons, its better to have only Strikes or Interceptors.
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
As long as Dreadknights exist, Draigo can be skipped completely.
Well... No. I think that passing him up when he is so potent would seem odd at best. He's MUCH easier to hide. He's better at buffing. He's an absolute beast in close combat. Just the fact that he can avoid all damage until he's ready to deal it is pretty sweet.
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
As long as Dreadknights exist, Draigo can be skipped completely.
Well... No. I think that passing him up when he is so potent would seem odd at best. He's MUCH easier to hide. He's better at buffing. He's an absolute beast in close combat. Just the fact that he can avoid all damage until he's ready to deal it is pretty sweet.
His damage is nothing compared to getting a Dreadknight, sorry. Especially with the range damage output + hammer hitting things. They also don't have the issue of needing to get into melee compared to Draigo, who is just an expensive baby sitter in an already expensive army.
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
As long as Dreadknights exist, Draigo can be skipped completely.
Well... No. I think that passing him up when he is so potent would seem odd at best. He's MUCH easier to hide. He's better at buffing. He's an absolute beast in close combat. Just the fact that he can avoid all damage until he's ready to deal it is pretty sweet.
His damage is nothing compared to getting a Dreadknight, sorry. Especially with the range damage output + hammer hitting things. They also don't have the issue of needing to get into melee compared to Draigo, who is just an expensive baby sitter in an already expensive army.
Yeah a DK hits harder and has guns. I bet we get a new draigo model and his aura goes to reroll all hits. Which would make him that much better.
I’ve been trying out normal barebones Dreadknights with swords and they do pretty well for 120 points. They’re as durable as a grandmaster to anything but the heaviest weapons and perform nearly the same with rerolls. Instead of 3 gmndk’s I’m doing 2 dreads supported by 1 grandmaster, and it’s saving a ton of points. Also lets me take one purgation squad for an easy heavy support detachment.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been trying out normal barebones Dreadknights with swords and they do pretty well for 120 points. They’re as durable as a grandmaster to anything but the heaviest weapons and perform nearly the same with rerolls. Instead of 3 gmndk’s I’m doing 2 dreads supported by 1 grandmaster, and it’s saving a ton of points. Also lets me take one purgation squad for an easy heavy support detachment.
Dreadknights are fine with either just fists or Sword, and just equipped with a Incinerator. Keep them as cheap as possible.
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
As long as Dreadknights exist, Draigo can be skipped completely.
Well... No. I think that passing him up when he is so potent would seem odd at best. He's MUCH easier to hide. He's better at buffing. He's an absolute beast in close combat. Just the fact that he can avoid all damage until he's ready to deal it is pretty sweet.
His damage is nothing compared to getting a Dreadknight, sorry. Especially with the range damage output + hammer hitting things. They also don't have the issue of needing to get into melee compared to Draigo, who is just an expensive baby sitter in an already expensive army.
What good is all the money in the world if you're not alive to spend it?
As long as Dreadknights exist, Draigo can be skipped completely.
Well... No. I think that passing him up when he is so potent would seem odd at best. He's MUCH easier to hide. He's better at buffing. He's an absolute beast in close combat. Just the fact that he can avoid all damage until he's ready to deal it is pretty sweet.
His damage is nothing compared to getting a Dreadknight, sorry. Especially with the range damage output + hammer hitting things. They also don't have the issue of needing to get into melee compared to Draigo, who is just an expensive baby sitter in an already expensive army.
What good is all the money in the world if you're not alive to spend it?
It's not uncommon for a GMNDK to die in your first turn if your opponent goes first. Draigo has never been picked off in the first turn no matter what, in my experience.
Some of my local GK players have decided to drop GMNDKs all together...they're way too much of a high priority target. They're thinking of running bare bones NDKs just to distract the opponents and have them fire everything into them first turn instead. They are going to rely GK infantry Characters to do the work..
I think if you run GMDKs you should never run more than 2, and probably keep them in deepstrike unless you’re going first. 3++ is their only hope of staying alive, and your opponent has nothing else to shoot his AT weapons into
Jancoran wrote: Kaldor Draigo is really just so good that he would be impossible not to take in MOST lists.
As long as Dreadknights exist, Draigo can be skipped completely.
Well... No. I think that passing him up when he is so potent would seem odd at best. He's MUCH easier to hide. He's better at buffing. He's an absolute beast in close combat. Just the fact that he can avoid all damage until he's ready to deal it is pretty sweet.
His damage is nothing compared to getting a Dreadknight, sorry. Especially with the range damage output + hammer hitting things. They also don't have the issue of needing to get into melee compared to Draigo, who is just an expensive baby sitter in an already expensive army.
What good is all the money in the world if you're not alive to spend it?
What good is the necklace that looks nicer but doesn't get worn?
greyknight12 wrote: I think if you run GMDKs you should never run more than 2, and probably keep them in deepstrike unless you’re going first. 3++ is their only hope of staying alive, and your opponent has nothing else to shoot his AT weapons into
I honestly only run one now. I give him the teleporter, and depending on the opponent, I either deepstrike him or hide him. Depends.
greyknight12 wrote: I think if you run GMDKs you should never run more than 2, and probably keep them in deepstrike unless you’re going first. 3++ is their only hope of staying alive, and your opponent has nothing else to shoot his AT weapons into
I honestly only run one now. I give him the teleporter, and depending on the opponent, I either deepstrike him or hide him. Depends.
Yeah, any experienced opponent knows that taking down our GMNDK is halfway to their victory already. GW didn't need to nerf the 2++ on our GMNDK, especially since they were going to roll out SM Supplements by the end of the year anyway.
greyknight12 wrote: I think if you run GMDKs you should never run more than 2, and probably keep them in deepstrike unless you’re going first. 3++ is their only hope of staying alive, and your opponent has nothing else to shoot his AT weapons into
I honestly only run one now. I give him the teleporter, and depending on the opponent, I either deepstrike him or hide him. Depends.
Yeah, any experienced opponent knows that taking down our GMNDK is halfway to their victory already. GW didn't need to nerf the 2++ on our GMNDK, especially since they were going to roll out SM Supplements by the end of the year anyway.
Yeah Draigo is just easier to hide and more sure to impact the game for the longest amount of time by far. If you wanna take him AND a big boy (as a distraction), it isn't necessarily the wrong call at all. It's just that you know full well there's no way to protect the big boy, so I cant see how you'd want to choose the big guy FIRST. You'd want to put Draigo in the list and fit the big boy in if you can.
It's not uncommon for a GMNDK to die in your first turn if your opponent goes first. Draigo has never been picked off in the first turn no matter what, in my experience.
Some of my local GK players have decided to drop GMNDKs all together...they're way too much of a high priority target....
greyknight12 wrote: I think if you run GMDKs you should never run more than 2, and probably keep them in deepstrike unless you’re going first. 3++ is their only hope of staying alive, and your opponent has nothing else to shoot his AT weapons into
I honestly only run one now. I give him the teleporter, and depending on the opponent, I either deepstrike him or hide him. Depends.
Yeah, any experienced opponent knows that taking down our GMNDK is halfway to their victory already. GW didn't need to nerf the 2++ on our GMNDK, especially since they were going to roll out SM Supplements by the end of the year anyway.
IMO just because marines don't have trouble with dealing with 2++ GMNDK isn't good reason for that. Some armies are having hard enough time with 3++ nevermind 2++. S4 AP0 D1 shots aren't all that ideal with dealing with 2++ GMNDK and when it's that or weapons like melta gun...
Rather nerf the marines to reasonable level(not much they will struggle to deal with...) and buff rest of the GK's so it's not just codex: GMNDK would be route I would go with.
greyknight12 wrote: I think if you run GMDKs you should never run more than 2, and probably keep them in deepstrike unless you’re going first. 3++ is their only hope of staying alive, and your opponent has nothing else to shoot his AT weapons into
I honestly only run one now. I give him the teleporter, and depending on the opponent, I either deepstrike him or hide him. Depends.
Yeah, any experienced opponent knows that taking down our GMNDK is halfway to their victory already. GW didn't need to nerf the 2++ on our GMNDK, especially since they were going to roll out SM Supplements by the end of the year anyway.
Well all of your problems seem to be only taking two and wondering why they die. The game is all about redundancy in the list phase. You take three for threat saturation and flexible deployment. Never make any of them a Warlord because that's silly, not that any of the Warlord traits are good anyway outside the rerolling charges.
It isn't like they're THAT easy to kill either. Meanwhile Draigo pays an insane amount for melee he won't use unless your opponents are literally stupid and then the additional rerolling of 2s. He is not worth it whatsoever.
With legends out, we have a good price now for the rifleman dread again. And if we end up with doctrines, devastator doctrine may really be good for them. Put it on a venerable platform for accurate and reasonably priced 8x str 7 ap-2 2d shots. Interesting backline shooting unit
Badablack wrote: I’ve been trying out normal barebones Dreadknights with swords and they do pretty well for 120 points. They’re as durable as a grandmaster to anything but the heaviest weapons and perform nearly the same with rerolls. Instead of 3 gmndk’s I’m doing 2 dreads supported by 1 grandmaster, and it’s saving a ton of points. Also lets me take one purgation squad for an easy heavy support detachment.
Dreadknights are fine with either just fists or Sword, and just equipped with a Incinerator. Keep them as cheap as possible.
Disagree - load them up. Never fists...5 points for d6 damage over d3? No contest. You will be hard pressed to match the DK firepower for literally any weapon in the GK arsenal - so might as well take the HPC and Psilencer. Incinerator is trash too. Just pay 5 more points for the HPC. H-Psilencer is gold at 20 points - take them on every platform that can take them.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been trying out normal barebones Dreadknights with swords and they do pretty well for 120 points. They’re as durable as a grandmaster to anything but the heaviest weapons and perform nearly the same with rerolls. Instead of 3 gmndk’s I’m doing 2 dreads supported by 1 grandmaster, and it’s saving a ton of points. Also lets me take one purgation squad for an easy heavy support detachment.
Dreadknights are fine with either just fists or Sword, and just equipped with a Incinerator. Keep them as cheap as possible.
Disagree - load them up. Never fists...5 points for d6 damage over d3? No contest. You will be hard pressed to match the DK firepower for literally any weapon in the GK arsenal - so might as well take the HPC and Psilencer. Incinerator is trash too. Just pay 5 more points for the HPC. H-Psilencer is gold at 20 points - take them on every platform that can take them.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been trying out normal barebones Dreadknights with swords and they do pretty well for 120 points. They’re as durable as a grandmaster to anything but the heaviest weapons and perform nearly the same with rerolls. Instead of 3 gmndk’s I’m doing 2 dreads supported by 1 grandmaster, and it’s saving a ton of points. Also lets me take one purgation squad for an easy heavy support detachment.
Dreadknights are fine with either just fists or Sword, and just equipped with a Incinerator. Keep them as cheap as possible.
Disagree - load them up. Never fists...5 points for d6 damage over d3? No contest. You will be hard pressed to match the DK firepower for literally any weapon in the GK arsenal - so might as well take the HPC and Psilencer. Incinerator is trash too. Just pay 5 more points for the HPC. H-Psilencer is gold at 20 points - take them on every platform that can take them.
Not for the regular Dreadknight.
Yup reg dreadknights BS drops too low. Incinerators may be okay??
But I agree with the GMNDK, give them there two guns and a sword/hammer.
Remember with the hammer that you still have a fist, so when swinging at small stuff with 1w, you can still punch.
H.psycannon and h.psilencer are still the go to guns.
I've seen people run them naked and cheap. In fact the Australian open was won by a gk list with a GMNDK with no guns.
Ok, I think an ordo malleus inqy or Coteaz has a permanent place in my lists. So much value added. Either as another source for mortal wounds or to deny overwatch. Played against some Tau and stopping a riptide from over watch very much so turned the game today. Granted the tau were a little aggressive, it set up some less painful charges for me. Mass strength 5 is still scary
I think that if GK get access to Doctrines, the psybolt and psychic onslaught stratagems need to be reduced to 1 cp each since the AP buff of the Doctrines doesn't stack with other AP buffs. Imagine having the right doctrines activated and contemplating using a buff strat and it only increasing your weapons by 1 strength for TWO CP. Please GW.
_SeeD_ wrote: I think that if GK get access to Doctrines, the psybolt and psychic onslaught stratagems need to be reduced to 1 cp each since the AP buff of the Doctrines doesn't stack with other AP buffs. Imagine having the right doctrines activated and contemplating using a buff strat and it only increasing your weapons by 1 strength for TWO CP. Please GW.
Well, I never used these two doctrines since they are too expensive, 2 cp each.
_SeeD_ wrote: I think that if GK get access to Doctrines, the psybolt and psychic onslaught stratagems need to be reduced to 1 cp each since the AP buff of the Doctrines doesn't stack with other AP buffs. Imagine having the right doctrines activated and contemplating using a buff strat and it only increasing your weapons by 1 strength for TWO CP. Please GW.
Well, I never used these two doctrines since they are too expensive, 2 cp each.
The Grey Knights get plenty of new tricks too, including a particularly powerful new ability called Masters of the Warp, which rewards you for taking a dedicated army of Grey Knights, channelling a specific aspect of the warp to provide an army-wide bonus.
The Grey Knights get plenty of new tricks too, including a particularly powerful new ability called Masters of the Warp, which rewards you for taking a dedicated army of Grey Knights, channelling a specific aspect of the warp to provide an army-wide bonus.[i]
Theories?
To me it sounds like our version of doctrines
Doesnt sound like doctrines more like:
1. Adepta Sororitas' Sacred Rites or
2. Ad Mech's Canticles of the Omissiah
So six choices of arm-wide buffs (related to warp aspects) if it fits the pattern.
yes, I belive that GK are all getting doctrines, seems all space marines are getting doctrines,
that being said, I am happy with that, I play an all infantry greyknight list, and prior to SM2.0, it has performed quite well, zero NDK, zero tanks, zero dreads, just 100% foot sloggin infantry (some do teleport down on round 2) 65 stormbolters in tactical doctrine while in rapidfire range is quite scary
so, my theories on the bonus if you take 100% pure GK list
1) possibly universal 5++ (same as the stratagem that grants 5++ or +1 to invul save if already have one, similar to adeptus custodes ) 2) possibly that shrouding ability they had previously, -1 to hit them at range (similar to raven guard ) 3) possibly 1st turn teleport strikes (similar to the new drop pod rule ) 4) improved psy abilities in the psy phase, such as: improved smites, or full power smites, or targeted smites, or removal of the "once per phase" rule for psy powers 5) any combination of the above or all of the above
also, I belive that in true GW fashion, it will go one of two ways.. 1) totally useless and no real help to greyknights, or 2) totally over powered back to the matt ward era of greyknights (just to sell all those GK boxes gathering dust in the wharehouses )
This is the most promising update so far. Seeing what they did for the other matinee chapters, this has some real potential. I can see the GK both coming up in competitive strength, playability, and making them feel unique
Though in this case, I think our suffering has led to perseverance, that perseverance has built our character, and it has given us hope, and I don't think we will be disappointed
Gunrunner1775 wrote: yes, I belive that GK are all getting doctrines, seems all space marines are getting doctrines,
that being said, I am happy with that, I play an all infantry greyknight list, and prior to SM2.0, it has performed quite well, zero NDK, zero tanks, zero dreads, just 100% foot sloggin infantry (some do teleport down on round 2)
65 stormbolters in tactical doctrine while in rapidfire range is quite scary
so, my theories on the bonus if you take 100% pure GK list
1) possibly universal 5++ (same as the stratagem that grants 5++ or +1 to invul save if already have one, similar to adeptus custodes )
2) possibly that shrouding ability they had previously, -1 to hit them at range (similar to raven guard )
3) possibly 1st turn teleport strikes (similar to the new drop pod rule )
4) improved psy abilities in the psy phase, such as: improved smites, or full power smites, or targeted smites, or removal of the "once per phase" rule for psy powers
5) any combination of the above or all of the above
also, I belive that in true GW fashion, it will go one of two ways.. 1) totally useless and no real help to greyknights, or 2) totally over powered back to the matt ward era of greyknights (just to sell all those GK boxes gathering dust in the wharehouses )
Gunrunner1775 wrote: yes, I belive that GK are all getting doctrines, seems all space marines are getting doctrines,
that being said, I am happy with that, I play an all infantry greyknight list, and prior to SM2.0, it has performed quite well, zero NDK, zero tanks, zero dreads, just 100% foot sloggin infantry (some do teleport down on round 2)
65 stormbolters in tactical doctrine while in rapidfire range is quite scary
so, my theories on the bonus if you take 100% pure GK list
1) possibly universal 5++ (same as the stratagem that grants 5++ or +1 to invul save if already have one, similar to adeptus custodes )
2) possibly that shrouding ability they had previously, -1 to hit them at range (similar to raven guard )
3) possibly 1st turn teleport strikes (similar to the new drop pod rule )
4) improved psy abilities in the psy phase, such as: improved smites, or full power smites, or targeted smites, or removal of the "once per phase" rule for psy powers
5) any combination of the above or all of the above
also, I belive that in true GW fashion, it will go one of two ways.. 1) totally useless and no real help to greyknights, or 2) totally over powered back to the matt ward era of greyknights (just to sell all those GK boxes gathering dust in the wharehouses )
Tactical doctrine on GK?
It would be useful. That would really up the damage output of pretty much the entire army on turn 2. Could line up for some nice beta strikes.
That still violates Ro3, no? Still the same profile.
As for new GK tricks, I believe it will be an army wide buff of either an extra 13pts per model, or Troops now count as Ro3. Also, you are only allowed to melee on turns 2, 4, and 5.
Played a game vs crons with the new CA. This army needs doctrines. None of our good units have shooting AP! The game was still close. I took a 10 man brik of paladins and GOI them into the back field to try to burn 2 objectives in their deployment zone. 3 units of immortals stood in my way. I failed charge for 2 turns and he kept moving away from me (in cover) I didn't have CP for psibolt so we are sitting there chucking 50+ shots at each-other with 2+ saves (he had tesla) nether of us were able to do significant shooting damage. If the game had gone to turn 6 I would have won but I failed that dice roll. It's just sad a 500 point unit armed with all anti infantry weapons can't kill 10 immortals in front of them. At the very minimum I hope psibolt becomes an army wide ability if we don't get doctrines.
Just thought of an interesting fix for GK: We can cast one power at the start of the Movement and Fight phase. Units would still be restricted to the number of casts on their datasheet. Enemies would still only be able to deny in the Psychic phase. The limit on duplicate powers also only applies to the psychic phase.
This would let us have two units get Gate, or two units with Sanctuary or Hammerhand (or even Astral Aim). Tonnes of tactical flexibility and choice!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm thinking defensive tide turn 1, then unleash your entire army into opponent's deployment zone with 2 damage smites that cast on a 3+ (assuming we keep our current battle-forged bonuses).
Psilencer spam (D3+1 damage on a S5 gun) would also be really good to build around.
Na, Bolters weapons are explicitly referenced as bolt weapons in the new rules. And the Nemesis weapons also.
With the Shooty Tide the choice between Psycannons and psylencers is a real choice again.
S8,-1,D2 is really really good for anti vehicle duty.
A Purgation Squad or Paladin Squad pumping out 16 S9,-2,D2 DMG Shots with the strat feels pretty good.
If now only the Shooty Stratagems would go down to 1 CP each...
stormcraft wrote: Na, Bolters weapons are explicitly referenced as bolt weapons in the new rules. And the Nemesis weapons also.
With the Shooty Tide the choice between Psycannons and psylencers is a real choice again.
S8,-1,D2 is really really good for anti vehicle duty.
A Purgation Squad or Paladin Squad pumping out 16 S9,-2,D2 DMG Shots for 2 CP feels pretty good.
If now only the Shooty Stratagems would go down to 1 CP each...
It's entirely possible that items appear in more than one list.
Aeri wrote: I don't see where this would be useful to be honest :/
Purifier Smite bomb. Conga back to the Bro-Cap at 9".
Unfortunately, I don't think that using the Teleportarium stratagem means that the Purifiers are "set up on the battlefield using the Teleport Strike ability"...
You can set them up with teleport strike via another strategm. Also, a banner of refining flame would work here too to make sure you have a d6+1 damage smite and +1 a for you guys who are about to charge.
Or, combat squad your paladins with 4x incinerators for 4d6 autohits after teleport strike
Or teleport strike purgation squad with 4 incinerators
Smotejob wrote: You can set them up with teleport strike via another strategm. Also, a banner of refining flame would work here too to make sure you have a d6+1 damage smite and +1 a for you guys who are about to charge.
Or, combat squad your paladins with 4x incinerators for 4d6 autohits after teleport strike
Or teleport strike purgation squad with 4 incinerators
Purgation Squad doesn't have Teleport Strike. And the teleportation stratagem makes no mention of Teleport Strike, so it wouldn't work.
Smotejob wrote: You can set them up with teleport strike via another strategm. Also, a banner of refining flame would work here too to make sure you have a d6+1 damage smite and +1 a for you guys who are about to charge.
Or, combat squad your paladins with 4x incinerators for 4d6 autohits after teleport strike
Or teleport strike purgation squad with 4 incinerators
Purgation Squad doesn't have Teleport Strike. And the teleportation stratagem makes no mention of Teleport Strike, so it wouldn't work.
I wonder if they will define this. They need to define what a psi weapon is too.
Smotejob wrote: You can set them up with teleport strike via another strategm. Also, a banner of refining flame would work here too to make sure you have a d6+1 damage smite and +1 a for you guys who are about to charge.
Or, combat squad your paladins with 4x incinerators for 4d6 autohits after teleport strike
Or teleport strike purgation squad with 4 incinerators
Purgation Squad doesn't have Teleport Strike. And the teleportation stratagem makes no mention of Teleport Strike, so it wouldn't work.
I wonder if they will define this. They need to define what a psi weapon is too.
In the new Space Marine Codex they made lists of what weapons fell under what keyword (Melta, Flame, etc). I imagine they will do something similar.
Everything there seems great, there is potential for a lot more army builds already.
I wonder if Empyric Surge will work for the casting unit as well? Eg. If Voldus casts his first power then triggers the stratagem, does he get the +1 to his 2 other casts as well?
There are some real implications in ITC where an opponent may have their units 3" away from an objective and your OBSEC troops can come in within 3" of them and steal that objective.
If I could take hold more or a bonus a few turns a game for 1CP, I absolutely would.
Dropping 3 Paladins in the opponent’s backfield on cover with a 1+ save and -1 to hit is going to be very difficult to remove.
I’m already super excited with just what’s been revealed so far, and we still have 5 more psychic powers, more relics, warlord traits, and chaplain rites.
Aeri wrote: I don't see where this would be useful to be honest :/
Purifiers
They don’t have Teleport Strike. But an Ancient with the banner of refining flame does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing I noticed was the Cover tide doesn’t have a range restriction like Stealthy does. May get FAQ’d, and probably not a big deal anyway since you’ll be swapping to D2 smites once you get close but worth noting. It does make flyers interesting, though without Doctrines their damage will be lacking compared to SM.
Yeah that'll be the default go-to 'tide' for sure.
I think Brother Captains may become more of a staple too, I'd much rather have one of them over a BroChamp now for a cheaper HQ.
I envisage perhaps starting the battle with 2D smites enabled most of the time (just declare Prepared Positions if you don't go first) then using the 24" smite to start dealing out heaps of MW on your turn 1 psychic phase, before magically casting the power to change tide to auto-cover to weather the next enemy shooting phase. Have your cake and eat it too!
Aeri wrote: I don't see where this would be useful to be honest :/
Purifiers
They don’t have Teleport Strike. But an Ancient with the banner of refining flame does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing I noticed was the Cover tide doesn’t have a range restriction like Stealthy does. May get FAQ’d, and probably not a big deal anyway since you’ll be swapping to D2 smites once you get close but worth noting. It does make flyers interesting, though without Doctrines their damage will be lacking compared to SM.
So for me the biggest winner is the defensive tide.
You would obviously start with that as 50% of your army has to be on the board turn one.
Next you would swap either to better psi weapons or better smites, as a turn 2 charge is even with full rerolls unlikely. It could also be beneficial to keep the defensive tide for another turn.
In turn 3 however I would have to decide if I want better smites or better melee. I think rerolling 1s to wound is still better than 1 additional mortal wound, if you still have more than a few models in each unit alive.
I don't think spending a cp on a banner to drop it within 3'' is worth it. I rather think you should use it to drop a force multiplier on units already in combat.
In ties of shadows the wording "on or within a terrain feature" means that if a GK storm raven flies and ends its movement over a terrain feature all of a sudden it becomes a flier with 2+ save, 14 wounds T7 and -2 to hit?
Redemption wrote: The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.
Will have to wait and see what units get the "Masters of the Warp" rule which the tides apply to. Would be a fair assumption that it would only apply to the psyker keyword.
I think one of the new rules should be that up to two units can arrive T1 using their Teleport Strike ability.
This is fluffy, as the Grey Knights are known for their precise and deadly teleportation strikes. (I recall reading a story where a unit of Termies shot straight into a building, past the gibbering daemon hordes, and blasted the cult leader as their initial assault.)
It would also lend some good mobility to a pure GK force.
Imagine a Paladin block and supporting character diving straight into the heart of things on the top of T1!
Redemption wrote: The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.
Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?
RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.
Redemption wrote: The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.
Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?
RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.
At the moment yes. But GW are known for outright ignoring the RAW because 'reasons'. See 5th edition Falchions.
Redemption wrote: The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.
Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?
RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.
It specifically says "units with this ability", and such a clause would logically only need to be included if there are units without the ability. So there's a decent chance units like Stormravens or Land Raiders will not get the Masters of the Warp ability, if they make rules follow fluff.
But yeah, they could go both ways, it's easily handwaved that the pilots are psychic like in older editions. But my experience with GW's rules is not to set your expectations too high.
But we'll know for certain tomorrow. Generally the YouTube reviews go up on Saturday.
There are 4 more psychic powers and 5 more litanies to go...but it would be awesome if just one of them allowed GK infantry - "Storm Bolter Combat."
When a GREY KNIGHT INFANTRY model equipped with a storm bolter is within 1" of enemy units, that storm bolter has a Profile type characteristic of Pistol 2 during the shooting phase.
Why? Because army-wide wrist-mounted storm bolters are awesome - and should have more rule flavour to match the usual Grey Knight lore / artwork:
Redemption wrote: So there's a decent chance units like Stormravens or Land Raiders will not get the Masters of the Warp ability, if they make rules follow fluff.
That's only if Masters of the Warp isn't the buff gained through fielding a Grey Knight only force they previewed weeks ago. All indications are that it is, so it would apply to LRs/SRs/DKs ect.
Edit: Called it. Enjoy those -2 to hit SRs.
From the N/R Thread:
Stratagems
2CP - Masters of Combat 2. Dead Paladins attack back
1CP - Overwhelming Assault 1 CP Dreadknight gains +1 attack, rerolling wound and damage rolls of 1
2CP - Bring Down The Beast reroll wounds agasint a vehicle or monster during the shooting phase
1CP - Fight On The Move Interceptors can shoot or charge if they fell back
1/2CP - Redoubtable Defense Termintor units only. 1 CP for 5 models 2 for 10. Ranged attacks are -1 damage
1CP - Untainted Purifiers get 4+ invul
1CP Senses 1 CP Purges overwatch on 4s
Psyker spells
Dominus only for characters only, cant mix
Armored Resiliance - WC 6 Infantry are -1 to wound
Ethereal Manipulation - WC 7 Reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance
Edict - WC7 Shoot and then move during the psyker phase, that unit can not shoot advance or move that turn
Relics
Shard - Reroll results of psyker tests and add 1 to the result
Scrolls - Nemesis weapons gain exploding 6s (my GMDK has a relic)
Litanies
Faith - 6" bubble 5+ FnP for mortal wounds
Ward - Unit rerolls damage rolls for a random damage weapon
Guidance - Unit ignores hit and ballistic skill modifiers
Focus - Unit gains -1 AP to any nemesis or psy weapon
Stratagems
2CP - Masters of Combat 2. Dead Paladins attack back
1CP - Overwhelming Assault 1 CP Dreadknight gains +1 attack, rerolling wound and damage rolls of 1
2CP - Bring Down The Beast reroll wounds agasint a vehicle or monster during the shooting phase
1CP - Fight On The Move Interceptors can shoot or charge if they fell back
1/2CP - Redoubtable Defense Termintor units only. 1 CP for 5 models 2 for 10. Ranged attacks are -1 damage
1CP - Untainted Purifiers get 4+ invul
1CP Senses 1 CP Purges overwatch on 4s
Psyker spells
Dominus only for characters only, cant mix
Armored Resiliance - WC 6 Infantry are -1 to wound
Ethereal Manipulation - WC 7 Reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance
Edict - WC7 Shoot and then move during the psyker phase, that unit can not shoot advance or move that turn
Relics
Shard - Reroll results of psyker tests and add 1 to the result
Scrolls - Nemesis weapons gain exploding 6s (my GMDK has a relic)
Litanies
Faith - 6" bubble 5+ FnP for mortal wounds
Ward - Unit rerolls damage rolls for a random damage weapon
Guidance - Unit ignores hit and ballistic skill modifiers
Focus - Unit gains -1 AP to any nemesis or psy weapon
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Apparently there is also a relic that allows the Techmarine to double repair, but i'm not sure how useful that will be beyond babysitting a LR.
MiguelFelstone wrote: Apparently there is also a relic that allows the Techmarine to double repair, but i'm not sure how useful that will be beyond babysitting a LR.
Dreadknights are vehicles, so if you can screen the techmarine he could babysit the baby carrier I guess
MiguelFelstone wrote: Apparently there is also a relic that allows the Techmarine to double repair, but i'm not sure how useful that will be beyond babysitting a LR.
Dreadknights are vehicles, so if you can screen the techmarine he could babysit the baby carrier I guess
Ya but i was only planning on fielding 1 or 2 tops, we have a ton of great support characters now it's a hard call. Standalone i still think they one of our strongest units, but in terms of synergising with the new abilities i think i'd rather try out one of these new Chaplains.
Aren't Chaplains colossal winners from the new rules? Litanies giving good buffs and a new list of good spells to choose from makes them go from sad melee-reroll bots to throwing out two relevant buffs per turn.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Aren't Chaplains colossal winners from the new rules? Litanies giving good buffs and a new list of good spells to choose from makes them go from sad melee-reroll bots to throwing out two relevant buffs per turn.
I played a casual game agasint White Scars today, he was my WL and MvP, but there are so many new combos it's hard to keep track of everything. I'm positive i could have been more effective with my Tides as well. Ironically i think the Chaplain is now a better ranged support character than an assault one seeing as GW seems to be steering us towards a mid-field ranged force.
Redemption wrote: The Tides are probably only for units with the Grey Knights Psyker keywords, I doubt units like a Stormraven will benefit.
Why would anyone assume this? Lore reasons?
RAW Shadows specifically states 'UNITS", just as it states "INFANTRY" for other Tides. When GW needs or wants to be specific they are. Shadows applies to all units in a battle forged Grey Knight only force.
The only unit from the GK codex I would say wouldn't benefit from it is Servitors. They're almost always exempted from whatever special rule may be applied to any army they're in.
Yup, now that the previews are up, it seems the only units to not get it are indeed servitors. So parking a Land Raider on a terrain piece now gives it a 1+ save and -1 to hit, even if it isn't even obscured by the terrain.
Indeed very nice and more than I had expected from GW. All of the new rules seem very nice. The only things I'm really missing is new Warlord Traits, because our current ones mostly suck. And the Hero of the Chapter stratagem would have been nice to give First to the Fray to a GMNDK without making him Warlord.
Land Raiders and without space marines stormravens would probably have a niche. The horrible, ridiculous thing I’ve been looking at is a troll list with a thunderhawk. Cast sanctuary on it every turn and you have a 30W T9 2+/4++ tank at -2 to hit as long as you have big enough terrain pieces for it’s base. It doesn’t have the Flyer keyword so no boots on the ground concerns, just wouldn’t be legal in ITC if they still have their <PL30 restriction.>
Something that also could be useful is a chaplain with the fury of Deimos and the litany of projection on himself to trigger Bring down the beast at 36" + 5" movement.
A gun line of 3 ven dreads can statistically take a land raider or a repulsor which has been marked with Bring down the beast strat. I know that probably mass storm bolter fire will do better, but LC, ML, and autocannons are long-range which give some extra tactical options
Here's my first attempt at a list with the new PA. I'm especially excited about the Paladin block. -1 to hit, only wounds on 4+, -1 to wound, 1+4++, -1D. That means that S8+ is wounding those guys on 5s (1-3 are out because of Transhuman, and then Armoured Resilience--from Dominus tree--turns the 4s into 3s, which don't wound thanks to the strat).
Spoiler:
GK Battalion HQ Malleus Inquisitor, Needle Pistol, Chainsword, Psyker
--Radical WL Trait for 1CP (if there is overwatch I really need to avoid)
--Terrify
Draigo
--Edict Imperator, Ethereal Manipulation
TROOPS 10x Strikes
5x Strikes with Psilencer
5x Strikes with Psilencer
Transhuman physiology and to wound maluses dont function like that. You're only improving your resilience against S3 and S4 weapons.
TP explicitly calls out *unmodified* rolls. 4s, 5s, and 6s for all other strength values resolve as results that will still successfully wound, even with the roll malus.
An example to illustrate:
A heavy bolter fires at a Paladin team with TP and AR active. All three shots hit. The wound rolls are 3, 4 and 5.
The 3 fails because it is not at least a natural 4.
The 4 succeeds because it is at least a natural 4, and the modified result of 3 is the minimum result needed for an S5 weapon to wound a T4 model.
The 5 succeeds because it is at least a natural 4, and the modified result of 4 is above the minimum result needed for an S5 weapon to wound a T4 model.
Hmmm you’re right! so that essentially means that both The power and the strat on the same unit is pointless.
So I can put the power on Draigo, and the strat on Paladins!
Elric Greywolf wrote: Hmmm you’re right! so that essentially means that both The power and the strat on the same unit is pointless.
So I can put the power on Draigo, and the strat on Paladins!
Yes, and no. As stated, S3 and S4 weapons are impacted by the -1 to wound ability (which TP does not impact as they already require at least natural 4s to successfully wound). If you've got a unit on a point that absolutely positively must survive, and expect your opponent to throw the kitchen sink of weapon strengths at you, there is an argument to be made for utilizing them both.
It'll potentially be an edge case, but it does exist.
Are Stormravens going to be good with Ritual of the Damned? Will we still want to transport purifiers with them or is there a case for 2 Purgation squads being moved midfield with them?
Rihgu wrote: Are Stormravens going to be good with Ritual of the Damned? Will we still want to transport purifiers with them or is there a case for 2 Purgation squads being moved midfield with them?
They're certainly going to be better than they were. Ultimately, I think that Grey Knights already have tons of mobility and points will be better spent on more units as opposed to big single units. Purifiers have some play but at the end of the day, it's still more of a suicide trade which is something that Grey Knights do not want to do.
Yea I think Stormraven might be a trap. Sure -2 to Hit is a a nice boost, but then comes something like a IgnoreHitModifier Double Gatling Knight and Blows is away T1
stormcraft wrote: Yea I think Stormraven might be a trap. Sure -2 to Hit is a a nice boost, but then comes something like a IgnoreHitModifier Double Gatling Knight and Blows is away T1
Or orks. Or sisters of battle(though those you could counter with deployment at least. Though unless you can hide you still eat 3d3 S8 -3 Dd6 ignore hit modifiers). Or number of other options.
Necrons will absolutely hate dealing with that if they can't ignore it though.
My impression of playing lately with my Eldar and Custodes (mostly vs Marines) is that hit modifiers are definitely not what they once were for keeping yourself safe from shooting. They're nice of course but it seems there's always a tool to get around them. I'm actually becoming more excited about always being in cover.
To me the question becomes which is actually better now? Land raider crusader or stormraven? Assuming your not dropping a dreadnought off in the raven they have very close stats and abilities now. I own both and was originally going to paint the crusader for my black templars (because they need 3) and the raven for my grey knights but now I am torn. Thoughts?
I'd take a default lascannon Land Raider over a Crusader for Grey Knights. They have plenty of bolter shots already, but are generally lacking for high strength multi damage shots.
And considering a Land Raider is now cheaper than a Stormraven, while being tougher and it also comes with more lascannons, I'd probably take a Land Raider over a Stormraven too.
The extra mobility of the Stormraven is not as big of a bonus for GK as they have lots of deep strike options, Gate of Infinity and Astral Aim.
Have some questions we've never had before thanks to the new Grey Knight changes. Friend is a GK player and played against my Ultramarine Primaris.
Our biggest question is how Heroic Intervention works. With the strat of being 3 inches away, can you drop a Apoc 3 inches away and it heroic intervention to avoid overwatch?
Slightly different, can you run up and advance a dreadknight 3 inches away from the enemy and heroic intervention into it to avoid overwatch?
Both are pretty scary to my bubbles, as they can easily murder my Repulsor Executioners so it would be nice to know lol.
Finally and I've seen it mentioned so I'm sure its fine... but you can stack Psybolt Ammo with the Tide to make basically all the units weapons buffed up correct?
FYI - Grey Knights hurt now. I've had an issue where as a Primaris player I win alot against other factions. These Psy combinations, No LoS Naughts and Invul 3 with shinanigans Dreadknights are nasty.
edit - I think we found the issue but please confirm. Just realized I think heroic intervention is on the enemies turn after their charges, not on the players turn (GK in this case) that is trying to HI.
Yes, Psybolt ammo makes the bolt weapons it affects also psi weapons, so they would be affected by the Tide of Convergence - as long as it's an Infantry unit.
And yes, Herioc Intervention is only in reaction to an enemy charging; you can't do it on your own turn.
Keramory wrote: Have some questions we've never had before thanks to the new Grey Knight changes. Friend is a GK player and played against my Ultramarine Primaris.
Our biggest question is how Heroic Intervention works. With the strat of being 3 inches away, can you drop a Apoc 3 inches away and it heroic intervention to avoid overwatch?
Slightly different, can you run up and advance a dreadknight 3 inches away from the enemy and heroic intervention into it to avoid overwatch?
Both are pretty scary to my bubbles, as they can easily murder my Repulsor Executioners so it would be nice to know lol.
Finally and I've seen it mentioned so I'm sure its fine... but you can stack Psybolt Ammo with the Tide to make basically all the units weapons buffed up correct?
FYI - Grey Knights hurt now. I've had an issue where as a Primaris player I win alot against other factions. These Psy combinations, No LoS Naughts and Invul 3 with shinanigans Dreadknights are nasty.
edit - I think we found the issue but please confirm. Just realized I think heroic intervention is on the enemies turn after their charges, not on the players turn (GK in this case) that is trying to HI.
In the designer's commentary it states you can never perform a heroic intervention in your own turn.
Also, the stratagem requires you to deep strike OVER 3" away. Heroic INtervention requires you to select a unit WITHIN 3". So it doesn't work on 2 counts.
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greyknight12 wrote: From the N/R Thread:
Stratagems
2CP - Masters of Combat 2. Dead Paladins attack back
1CP - Overwhelming Assault 1 CP Dreadknight gains +1 attack, rerolling wound and damage rolls of 1
2CP - Bring Down The Beast reroll wounds agasint a vehicle or monster during the shooting phase
1CP - Fight On The Move Interceptors can shoot or charge if they fell back
1/2CP - Redoubtable Defense Termintor units only. 1 CP for 5 models 2 for 10. Ranged attacks are -1 damage
1CP - Untainted Purifiers get 4+ invul
1CP Senses 1 CP Purges overwatch on 4s
Psyker spells
Dominus only for characters only, cant mix
Armored Resiliance - WC 6 Infantry are -1 to wound
Ethereal Manipulation - WC 7 Reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance
Edict - WC7 Shoot and then move during the psyker phase, that unit can not shoot advance or move that turn
Relics
Shard - Reroll results of psyker tests and add 1 to the result
Scrolls - Nemesis weapons gain exploding 6s (my GMDK has a relic)
Litanies
Faith - 6" bubble 5+ FnP for mortal wounds
Ward - Unit rerolls damage rolls for a random damage weapon
Guidance - Unit ignores hit and ballistic skill modifiers
Focus - Unit gains -1 AP to any nemesis or psy weapon
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to add:
Inner Fire: WC5. Select 1 enemy unit within 1" of the caster. Roll a number of dice equal to the result of the psychic test. For each roll of 1, the psyker suffers a MW. For each roll of 3+, the enemy unit suffers a MW.
So with an average roll, the psyker suffers 1 MW, and the target 5.
Empyrean Domination: WC7, gain 1CP
Warp Shaping: WC5, change the active Tides of the Warp to a different one effective immediately.
Ethereal Manipulation WC7 targets a friendly GREY KNIGHT unit within 6", and that unit CAN reroll the hit roll (so, it's the good wording of reroll) when making an attack in the shooting phase vs an enemy within half range. Hi there, lascannons on your land raider.
Armored Resilience WC6: Friendly GREY KNIGHTS INFANTRY within 12" are -1 to wound.
Edict: WC7. Friendly GREY KNIGHTS unit shoots then moves immediately, can't advance, can't charge or shoot again this turn.
So this effectively grants JSJ to one selected GK unit. Maybe the most situational power of the bunch. But, overall, this is a very powerful psychic discipline, which gives very good reasons to take GK characters.
Anyone else think that if your going to do imperial soup then its definitely worth spending 100pts on a aux detachment and taking a grey knights librarian? It costs a cp but he can sit back and generate 1cp a turn so that's an extra 5cp for 100 pts, plus he can cast another power, sit back and hold an objective and be a counter charge unit, I am seeing a lot of versatility in him.
Thanks for the adds @the_scotsman. According to the Goonhammer review there is also a strat called “powerful adept” that increases the range of psychic powers by 6”, making the Inner Fire power a lot more deadly. I’ve also seen a grainy image that claims one chaplain litany is a +3 to deny for a unit.
I really like the JSJ power, combined with astral aim it gives you 2 units that can hide out of LOS and still shoot. Good for purgation squads.
I’m trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still really skeptical of paladins. A squad of 4 costs the same as 2 strike squads, and while a lot more durable I feel like the extra storm bolter and mortal wound output of the strikes is more valuable. I have watched way too many of my T6 W4 2+/4++ -1 to hit Custodes bikes just die to be impressed with paladins’ durability. In a meta where people are gearing up to kill assault centurions (which have similar buffs) I just don’t think they are RELATIVELY durable enough. That said, I would love to be wrong since I have wayyy too many GK terminators and they are one of my favorite models (the old metal ones).
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Azuza001 wrote: Anyone else think that if your going to do imperial soup then its definitely worth spending 100pts on a aux detachment and taking a grey knights librarian? It costs a cp but he can sit back and generate 1cp a turn so that's an extra 5cp for 100 pts, plus he can cast another power, sit back and hold an objective and be a counter charge unit, I am seeing a lot of versatility in him.
Maybe, but you can get similar results out of an inquisitor for cheaper and without burning a detachment as well. Some of it will depend on if that power is subject to the “regain CP” rules already in place limiting you to one per turn. That said, GK librarians have some decent melee ability and access to gate of Infinity.
greyknight12 wrote: Thanks for the adds @the_scotsman. According to the Goonhammer review there is also a strat called “powerful adept” that increases the range of psychic powers by 6”, making the Inner Fire power a lot more deadly. I’ve also seen a grainy image that claims one chaplain litany is a +3 to deny for a unit.
I really like the JSJ power, combined with astral aim it gives you 2 units that can hide out of LOS and still shoot. Good for purgation squads.
I’m trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still really skeptical of paladins. A squad of 4 costs the same as 2 strike squads, and while a lot more durable I feel like the extra storm bolter and mortal wound output of the strikes is more valuable. I have watched way too many of my T6 W4 2+/4++ -1 to hit Custodes bikes just die to be impressed with paladins’ durability. In a meta where people are gearing up to kill assault centurions (which have similar buffs) I just don’t think they are RELATIVELY durable enough. That said, I would love to be wrong since I have wayyy too many GK terminators and they are one of my favorite models (the old metal ones).
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Azuza001 wrote: Anyone else think that if your going to do imperial soup then its definitely worth spending 100pts on a aux detachment and taking a grey knights librarian? It costs a cp but he can sit back and generate 1cp a turn so that's an extra 5cp for 100 pts, plus he can cast another power, sit back and hold an objective and be a counter charge unit, I am seeing a lot of versatility in him.
Maybe, but you can get similar results out of an inquisitor for cheaper and without burning a detachment as well. Some of it will depend on if that power is subject to the “regain CP” rules already in place limiting you to one per turn. That said, GK librarians have some decent melee ability and access to gate of Infinity.
You either get Gate or the CP regeneration, you aren't allowed both on the same model.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You either get Gate or the CP regeneration, you aren't allowed both on the same model.
That's not exactly true, Loremaster.
Hmm, true, that's something I forgot about mostly because Sanctic is garbage basically. However you're giving up a Warlord Trait to do that, and Librarians aren't exactly the best choice for a Warlord. It just seems a lot easier to use an Inquisitor at that point.
greyknight12 wrote: Thanks for the adds @the_scotsman. According to the Goonhammer review there is also a strat called “powerful adept” that increases the range of psychic powers by 6”, making the Inner Fire power a lot more deadly. I’ve also seen a grainy image that claims one chaplain litany is a +3 to deny for a unit.
Yeah, the Powerful Adept strat is for units with the rules Rites of Banishment only though. And +3 to deny litany is for the Chaplain himself, it cannot be put on another GK unit close by.
I dont disagree that an inquisitor is a great option that can generate cp. But they are not as easily guaranteed as the cp from the librarian. The inquisitor has to be close enough to an enemy chr to cast the spell (which means they are probably in deny range) as well as rolling high enough vs the enemy chrs leadership to grab said cp. Granted that part isnt as hard, but it's the difference between your inquisitior having to go to the enemy to get a cp vs the enemy having to come to you to stop you from getting cp.
psipso wrote: I read that people were considering to stack empyric surge and pshycic channeling strats to have a super vortex of doom.
I made some maths:
Not empyric surge and not pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 8.3 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 41.6 %
Empyric surge and not pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 16.7 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 58.4 %
Not Empyric surge and pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 19.9 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 68.0 %
Empyric surge and pshycic channeling:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 35.6 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 80.6 %
I wonder if it worths the 2 CP to pull this out.
Now that we know that in top of that we have this artisan nullifier matrix relic that can add + 1 to a roll dice in the psychic test I should ask:
Empyric surge and pshycic channeling under the influence of artisan nullifier matrix:
- Change of super vortex of doom: 52.3 %
- Change of normal vortex of doom: 89.4 %
I begin to envision a 10 man interceptor unit with vortex of doom forming a conga line from 12" away of a point flooded with MSU till somewhere at 6" from a librarian sitting in someplace safe.
Automatically Appended Next Post: after that cast GI or edict imperator shunt away the interceptors back to a safe spot
Do we have a baseline for theorycrafting for the new codex? I've seen maths supporting Falchion spam, Psycannons over Psilncers and vise versa, conflicting info all over the place
greyknight12 wrote: I’m trying to keep an open mind, but I’m still really skeptical of paladins. A squad of 4 costs the same as 2 strike squads, and while a lot more durable I feel like the extra storm bolter and mortal wound output of the strikes is more valuable. I have watched way too many of my T6 W4 2+/4++ -1 to hit Custodes bikes just die to be impressed with paladins’ durability. In a meta where people are gearing up to kill assault centurions (which have similar buffs) I just don’t think they are RELATIVELY durable enough. That said, I would love to be wrong since I have wayyy too many GK terminators and they are one of my favorite models (the old metal ones).
I think there are two significant differences between Paladins and Custodes bikes. Paladins will have 1+/4++ and -1 to hit. But in addition to that:
the 10-man block of Pallies (which is 30 wounds!) will have Transhuman Physiology, making S8+ weaponry 40% less effective (knocking out 2/5 wound results).
they will have -1 damage, making anything with 3D half as effective (it takes two shots now to kill a model, rather than 1), making it impossible for d3 weapons to outright kill a model (eg. force and battlecannons), and making overcharged plasma, with its 2D, woefully ineffective!
MiguelFelstone wrote: Do we have a baseline for theorycrafting for the new codex? I've seen maths supporting Falchion spam, Psycannons over Psilncers and vise versa, conflicting info all over the place
Psycannons are better vs most things over t5 under most situations. Those are the things you need heavy weapons for for the most part. Storm bolters can handle the t4 targets.
I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
FFridge wrote: Thanks for the math but why are you not using all the Buffs you used for Psilencer and Psycannon for Stormbolters too?
Psybolt Ammunition turns Stormbolters into Psy weapons so they benefit from Convergence too
A full 10 man Squad of Paladins has 40 S6 -2ap 2 Damage Stormbolter Shots.
I was looking mainly at our ranged anti-tank, since that has been so lacking lately.
An how do you claim that the psybolt strat turns stormbolters into “psi weapons” as required by Convergence? I can see the fluff claim, but I’m not convinced on rules. In fact, the rules of the strat don’t mention anything about psi weapons, and simply say to increase S and AP.
The definition of psy weapons has been updated in the book to include psybolt bolter weapons.
Why take Librarians over a Grand Master? Yes, one more deny and the psychic hood, but the Grand Master gives the reroll 1s aura and has a better stat line. What am I missing?
MiguelFelstone wrote: Do we have a baseline for theorycrafting for the new codex? I've seen maths supporting Falchion spam, Psycannons over Psilncers and vise versa, conflicting info all over the place
Psycannons are better vs most things over t5 under most situations. Those are the things you need heavy weapons for for the most part. Storm bolters can handle the t4 targets.
This was exactly my thought.
FFridge & Greywolf - you guys rock
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: The definition of psy weapons has been updated in the book to include psybolt bolter weapons.
Why take Librarians over a Grand Master? Yes, one more deny and the psychic hood, but the Grand Master gives the reroll 1s aura and has a better stat line. What am I missing?
The new Librarian only relic that makes everyone within 6" more or less immune to pearls (once per turn +1 to any roll cast or deny i believe).
Edit: I could see this getting a lot of play, i plan on testing it this weekend
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But the +1 to cast and rerolls to cast relic works on a Grand Master as well, right?
EDIT: I know the two relics are two different relics, but isn't the +1 to cast and rerolls relic pretty much an auto-take?
We have two really strong psyker relics, one any character can wield that gives +1 cast and rerolls for himself, and the other is a Librarian only relic that gives you the once per turn +1 cast aura. On top of the stratagem, that's like +4
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Isn't the Librarian one a +1 or -1 to one die for a unit within 6" per turn?
Yup.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FFridge & Greywolf, any way you guys could work with Quickjager on updating the deprecated parts of the OP? Or just create a new tactica repository for Grey Knights 1.9?
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
Actually, I think it’s quite likely that this specific combo will occur frequently. Draigo will definitely be next to my Palabomb all the time—because why wouldn’t I be buffing my largest unit? My CP are for this combo, considering how deadly the investment becomes. The weak link is the two 3+ litanies. So I can realistically expect only one of them. But other than that, there’s no reason a competent player shouldn’t position his units to make this work.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
Actually, I think it’s quite likely that this specific combo will occur frequently. Draigo will definitely be next to my Palabomb all the time—because why wouldn’t I be buffing my largest unit? My CP are for this combo, considering how deadly the investment becomes. The weak link is the two 3+ litanies. So I can realistically expect only one of them. But other than that, there’s no reason a competent player shouldn’t position his units to make this work.
/nod
Reddit also gave me the chance to gain some humility, you're right on all points, i don't know why i was arguing with the guy who "wrote the book".
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
I'm sorry but what a the point of this post? Is this somehow a defense for Psycannons?
Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Ya i thought this as well, you'd think that would be the case but it's not, stupid 8th wounding table.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Ya i thought this as well, you'd think that would be the case but it's not, stupid 8th wounding table.
Nah I've done the math. The psilencer only out damages if it wounds on 4's vs targets which don't have a good save. Like a 5+.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
What do you mean the cost between the two is nothing? You get almost two Psilencers for a Psycannon!
I'm getting rash if I think about an army containing these HQs.
Recently, my army was led by GKND's and Techmarines for obvious reasons.
Not sure if my army tactics of an ''alpha strike'' in round 2 can be improved:
Dreads, Techmarines, Paladins and Interceptors start at the board.
GKSS's and GKND's deep strike in round 2, simultaneously Paladins use GoI and Interceptors shunt.
The whole army in the enemy's face in round 2.
Edict Imperator is a really versatile spell, letting you fall back and shoot or pop out, shoot then scoot away.
You definitely want to take Warp Shaping on more than one guy, it’s way too important to leave up to a single character.
Characters that know 2+ spells are going to be crucial to keep the psyker buffs flowing, Grandmaster Voldus is going in all my lists from now on.
Sanctic Discipline powers being relegated to regular squads makes divvying up buffs a lot more important. You can’t mix and match on characters without the single warlord trait, so it’s up to the regular guys to handle their own buffs.
Slow and steady with the CP. There’s some deadly combos you can do but it means not blowing the whole load turns 1-2.
Overall it felt really powerful, though I’m definitely making some tokens to keep track of all the new buffs.
Yesterdays game,
managed to get my librarian close to opponent
did all the strat and other stuff shenanigans
inner fire
3d6 pick high 2, +3 for other stuff
managed to get 6,6,1, so 6+6+3 = 15
rolled the dice
did 2 mortal wounds to myself and did 12 mortal wounds to opponent's terminator squad
it was awsome
-the strat that adds 6" to range is pretty much mandatory to get this power off, due to the 1" range, so always plan on that
-if the dice gods hate you, then this power can definatly kill you, be sure to make proper sacrifices to the dice gods befor every game
2 games for me yesterday, Chaos Knights for my league and then low key against Tau (competitive list though). Tabled the knights turn 3, 2D smite is brutal, though one did explode and kill about 20 marines (yikes!). Against Tau I spent the entire game hiding and in the “cover” tide, basically killed only drones that whole game but owned the board and won.
Yeah, GK are good now.
Favorite moment was banner of refining flame with inner fire dropping in with dynamic insertion, mental focus, and psychic adept doing 11 mortal wounds to a knight
Here's a question for you Lords Empyrial. The protection that characters under 9 wounds get is specified to be during the shooting phase. Shooting that occurs outside that phase like Auspex Scan and Edict Imperator should ignore that and allow you to snipe characters, right?
bmsattler wrote: Here's a question for you Lords Empyrial. The protection that characters under 9 wounds get is specified to be during the shooting phase. Shooting that occurs outside that phase like Auspex Scan and Edict Imperator should ignore that and allow you to snipe characters, right?
I am pretty sure this was answered in an faq. I thought the answer was it follows the same rules as the shooting phase so you can't target a chr if there is something closer.
greyknight12 wrote: 2 games for me yesterday, Chaos Knights for my league and then low key against Tau (competitive list though). Tabled the knights turn 3, 2D smite is brutal, though one did explode and kill about 20 marines (yikes!). Against Tau I spent the entire game hiding and in the “cover” tide, basically killed only drones that whole game but owned the board and won.
Yeah, GK are good now.
Favorite moment was banner of refining flame with inner fire dropping in with dynamic insertion, mental focus, and psychic adept doing 11 mortal wounds to a knight
You can’t use Dynamic Insertion + Inner Fire with the Banner of Refining Flame. The Banner removes the models Rites of Banishment ability which means it can’t be targeted by the Powerful Adept Stratagem for +6” range.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
What do you mean the cost between the two is nothing? You get almost two Psilencers for a Psycannon!
A difference of 3 points. So if you take 10 of them...you save 30 points over Psycannons. That is not a big difference. In a GK army that is not even 2 models.
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
What do you mean the cost between the two is nothing? You get almost two Psilencers for a Psycannon!
A difference of 3 points. So if you take 10 of them...you save 30 points over Psycannons. That is not a big difference. In a GK army that is not even 2 models.
That's three Psycannons vs five Psilencers. Just admit you're wrong please.
We're not playing Imperial Guard here, where the most points efficient damage reigns supreme because we can take as much of it as we want and the efficiency in quantity will win out.
A Grey Knight army will only have so many slots for psycannons or psilencers and with such a small absolute difference in point costs which is the better weapon, not better weapon per point cost, is absolutely a valid concern.
How many of these weapons are you realistically taking, how many points will you save and what will you spend those points on?
If you're shooting at the second or third heavy mech / tank / artillery of you opponent's army, and you have less than half / none of your CP left...I'd rather have a handful of psycannons shooting at S8 AP-1 2 damage...than some more psilencers shooting at S5 AP0 d3+1 damage.
^ That makes sense.
If you need to shoot fodder....that's what the storm bolters are for...
