Sigh. It's not that I actually want to punch you in the face, but you need to realize how much your overuse of terms like mate and buddy create a disingenuous and even condescending tone, particularly on the Internet. You can absolutely be polite and sincere without being an overly affable milquetoast.

I'm sure you're a good dude, but you need to understand where the difference between polite and obnoxious lies. Remember: we can only read the words and can't get any other social cues from your inflection or mannerisms.

@Romeo -- I actually like the guy and am fairly certain this is going to be a good product because, from my experience, his company only produces quality products. I don't have a problem with him "trying to get his" in the business world. But then again, when it comes to business I'm decidedly darwinistic.

@WWX -- at this point ill be doing a starter with one of my buddies and creating a battle board that we can also use for Malifaux. I'm leaning towards the outlaws because I think they're the most consistent, while he's leaning toward the Enlightened.

Im loving the look of this game, the wild west has always held an intrest to me. I personlaly like the look of the outlaws and the union,but think the law men will be cool if they do unlock.

@madmick I think you are doing a great job of promoting this game,it certainly keeps me informed.

@cincydooley, little hash about his use of buddy and mate, we are english we use them a lot, similar to your dude I guess

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfndrate,
Hi mate, Just wanted to point out that the link does land on a topic that I had started, it does however point to the post that that remark was taken. So I would ask you to check the 4th post down on that page if you would be so kind.

The quoted text wasn't what I was referring to, sorry for my unclear statement.

I refer to people as "MATE" (which is self explanatory) / marra (marra - friend: "Mick wez an aad marra o' mine" / Buddy (also self explanatory) / mucka (Military term for mate) / pal (self explanatory) / ar'kid (brother, but can be used as friend). However, due to geographical differences, I chose to use terms that more people would be able to understand.

I use the term "WE" because it really feels like a team on there, if you do not believe me, donate $1 and come for a chat? or maybe join the forum and get to know how friendly everyone is. I can hardly be held responsible because people have grown paranoid within DakkaDakka can I? I have tried, as you pointed out, very hard to not to be the statistic norm which is often perceived here. All I have been is my normal self and respected peoples views. From what I understand of this whole situation, you dislike Romeo for being rude to people on one of his podcasts, which I have not listened to yet. How does his performance differ from the experience that I have received from a select few on this thread? I came on here to enjoy myself (insert reasons why here, but trying to keep it short).

I get the mate thing, it's a cultural difference between the US and the UK, but it's the over use >_<. Look at my posts, they contain a friendly tone (for the most part), or any of the truly friendly posts in the thread. Never once do I or anyone with a friendlier post say buddy, mate, etc.... I don't have to donate to see the WWX forums, and honestly it looks like a bunch of people that are just sitting around congratulating themselves and hyping themselves up about how awesome this game is, and at the end of the day, if you're just a regular guy, you're not a part of the team. If you were a painter or something else and you're just pretending to be a regular guy in the crowd, then you're lying and you'd be better off if it was well known that you were the studio painter for the game, because then we (dakka users) wouldn't feel like we were being pandered to by a "regular guy" because you're coming off as a salesman thats pushing this product just a little too much.

I never said I had issues with how he acts on podcasts, my issues are purely with the customer service I received from an order I put in about a year ago, and I said I wouldn't go into them for various reasons. His battlfoam product is great, I have 3 bags, but the customer service I received has made my wary of buying anything more from him simply because I wasn't treated so well. This is just my own personal experience with him and things he does, but I fault no one that continues buy his product, because it is good.

I was asking you to check KS because I had a banging headache and have had since middle of December, so I wanted you to take ownership of the situation so I didn't have to stare at the screen for much longer, but again my efforts back fired at me.

You could have just said this, as someone that gets spends 8+ hours a day staring at a flickering computer screen, I understand headaches... Again, you would have been better served by being forthcoming with information.

I generally have not found anything bad about WWX if I am honest, as the olny thing I thought was meh, he is doing the 3D images again for the Enlightened HH. So my reasoning leads me to a forum that kicks me for saying hello or a man who is trying his damnedest to make things right. Which would you honestly choose?

Dakka isn't trying to kick you for saying hello, Dakka is a very large wargaming site with many users of very discerning tastes who have money. Outlaw Miniatures, Romeo, whoever else is involved with this project is trying to get Dakkanauts to part with their hard earned greenbacks, which isn't a bad thing, but to say that there isn't anything bad about the game is a comment I find a little disconcerting if you're just a regular guy as everyone finds something wrong with something they like. I like Vanilla Ice Cream, but I don't like the feeling in my stomach after I eat it, due to the dairy content, if I could make vanilla ice cream with less dairy, I would. Then they have frozen yogurt, which allows me to enjoy something I like (vanilla ice cream) and fix a perceived problem with it (the heavy dairy feeling afterwards. So you're saying that the only thing you don't like is the "3d images" for a faction's model? A single thing in a game that as you describe has over 150 characters? There's nothing about the rules, the aesthetics, nothing? I find that hard to believe... :-\

I don't believe we have been given the size of the actual bases at this stage as I am not sure of how they refer to it by name:

Small 1.25'
medium 1.75'
Large 2.5'
Extra Large ?'
Massive 4.5'

You may be interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo then, as they are like a werewolf and a bear. May make you army look unique. I hear that they have about 150 different characters for the game so far spread across all factions, oh and while I remember, have you seen the grey spirit? sort of like an eagle man. Anyway I am sure you may not stop there when some more characters come out, hehe. Personally, I would like to see some animal bodyguard of sorts, perhaps werewolves or bears again?

People measure base sizes in inches? O.o So what 30mm, 40mm, 50mm, ?, and 120mm... those are standard base sizes. And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Minsk wrote:
Im loving the look of this game, the wild west has always held an intrest to me. I personlaly like the look of the outlaws and the union,but think the law men will be cool if they do unlock.

@madmick I think you are doing a great job of promoting this game,it certainly keeps me informed.

@cincydooley, little hash about his use of buddy and mate, we are english we use them a lot, similar to your dude I guess

Hey dude, we know... but it's his over use of the words buddy and mate, it's like if every other sentence from us Americans contained dude. Know what I mean dude?

It can get a little grating dude.

 Alfndrate wrote:

My point was, the person in the link above has the same icon as you, the same location as you, and links to a painting studio on facebook with the same location as you, and a quick google search brings up a wordpress site for Ironclad Miniature Painting Studio with a post called, "poorly sick mick" and an icon that matches yours. It's fine that you're asking people to spread the word about the game, because if it's something you like, it's entirely worth it to advertise it. Some of the "guff" that you're getting is because you're overly friendly which makes it sound like you're trying to force us to back the product (like a car salesman that is pushing a car you don't want) because you have some invested interest. You use the words "We" when referring to the project instead of Outlaw Miniatures or WWX, which shows a level of familiarity with the company and the project rather than just being a fan/backer. I'm a huge fan of Wyrd Miniatures and ran the Through the Breach Kickstarter thread here on Dakka, but for the most part 90% of the posts in that thread I referred to Wyrd as Wyrd instead of we or us because I didn't have any more information about the kickstarter or the game as anyone else.

I'll chip in and say I tend to move to using we in KS chat once I'm invested and enthusiastic as I'm spending time, effort and money to help the KSing company achive their goals,

so I don't find it odd if any other enthusiastic backer does the same

(but do agree with most of the rest of your post )

 cincydooley wrote:
Sigh. It's not that I actually want to punch you in the face, but you need to realize how much your overuse of terms like mate and buddy create a disingenuous and even condescending tone, particularly on the Internet.

Oh, it's not just online. There's nothing as creepy and offputting as someone calling you "friend", for example, in a similar fashion.

 Alfndrate wrote:
And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?

It's an interesting point, actually. On one hand, alternative versions of historical people and established fictional characters are very, very common, but the appropriation of Native cultures for this kind of thing is especialyl problematic given the long and complex history of native portrayals in media to begin with. Turning Abraham Lincoln into some kind of axe-wielding warrior or giving Gustave Eiffel a robot-spider isn't quite the same thing, but they're steps along the same highway to perdition, as it were.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?

It's an interesting point, actually. On one hand, alternative versions of historical people and established fictional characters are very, very common, but the appropriation of Native cultures for this kind of thing is especialyl problematic given the long and complex history of native portrayals in media to begin with. Turning Abraham Lincoln into some kind of axe-wielding warrior or giving Gustave Eiffel a robot-spider isn't quite the same thing, but they're steps along the same highway to perdition, as it were.

I do realize how I'm cherry picking my argument by excluding Abe Lincoln and his axe-wielding mini, but at the same time there are historical parodies that already have Abe killing zombies and vampires, I think it's just the idea that these are "noble savages" and that it's okay to associate them with animals because native americans were close to animals and spirits and that ilk, they believed in such things. The problem that I'm seeing is, why don't we see werewolves with other factions? Why is lycanthropy limited to just the Wild Nation? *shrugs* like I said, it's most likely just me, its a personal thing, and it shouldn't stop other people from backing this game that like that aesthetic. I'd just like to know why...

Yeah, that was discussed when those sculpts were first previewed. While I can see the sensitive nature of it, I'm still most interested in the warrior nation more than the others... and that sweet elk.

 RiTides wrote:
Yeah, that was discussed when those sculpts were first previewed. While I can see the sensitive nature of it, I'm still most interested in the warrior nation more than the others... and that sweet elk.

I missed that discussion lol but I do agree that elk is awesome

 MajorTom11 wrote:

I was and am simply pointing out that although you are being polite and friendly, you may be overdoing it a bit and in fact turning people off from participating in this thread as very little conversation is taking place between other users, just a Q and A with you.

...

I will say it shorter to be clear: Your enthusiasm is admirable but your tone and relentless posting are offputting to many users wanting to discuss this KS and the game as it is being interpreted and tele-marketing style messaging. People want to discuss the KS in it's entirety, stuff they love, stuff they like, stuff they worry about and stuff they don't like. Right now I believe many are feeling they aren't able to express themselves organically.

 cincydooley wrote:
Sigh. It's not that I actually want to punch you in the face, but you need to realize how much your overuse of terms like mate and buddy create a disingenuous and even condescending tone, particularly on the Internet.

These about sum up my feeling about this thread. I don't want the helpful guy at the store harassing me by trying to upsell me or be chummy, especially if that guy isn't even hired by the store but just a customer. I want to get what I came for, and ask for help if I need it.

This game looks pretty cool. The options are frankly overwhelming fo a starter line, which is putting me off. It's like the Relic Knights KS, except this one isn't color coded. I start scrolling and realize that my eyes have started glazing over and I'm just moving the scroll wheel. I've done this close to a half-dozen times. The minis look good, but I don't even want to calculate what it would cost to get in with most things I'd want for 2 players, because I just start scrolling past hordes of little silhouettes.

That's why i learned after the relic knights to just go with the pledge and leave it at that. I figure once i read the rule and play a few i can decide what i need for my army. I think a lot of people over burden themselves with ooh shiny syndrome.

 Empchild wrote:
That's why i learned after the relic knights to just go with the pledge and leave it at that. I figure once i read the rule and play a few i can decide what i need for my army. I think a lot of people over burden themselves with ooh shiny syndrome.

Yeah, same here. Plus, you combine that with the "get it all" mentality and this type of KS can be tricky.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Spoiler:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
And I'm not interested in Sitting Bull and Geronimo, and actually as someone that spent several years of my early life studying Sitting Bull and the Sioux nation, I'm actually slightly offended by the use of real life names for a fictional game. I mean that's not going to get me to go on a crusade to try and prevent this game's creation (because I know how to pick my fights), but I think it's poor taste to use names of real people in a fantasy game. I mean at least Outlaw Miniatures could have changed the names and used the real life names as inspiration... That's a personal peeve, other people are free to ignore my view. Also why did they decide on the name "Wild Nation" for the Native American tribes/faction(s)?

It's an interesting point, actually. On one hand, alternative versions of historical people and established fictional characters are very, very common, but the appropriation of Native cultures for this kind of thing is especialyl problematic given the long and complex history of native portrayals in media to begin with. Turning Abraham Lincoln into some kind of axe-wielding warrior or giving Gustave Eiffel a robot-spider isn't quite the same thing, but they're steps along the same highway to perdition, as it were.

I do realize how I'm cherry picking my argument by excluding Abe Lincoln and his axe-wielding mini, but at the same time there are historical parodies that already have Abe killing zombies and vampires, I think it's just the idea that these are "noble savages" and that it's okay to associate them with animals because native americans were close to animals and spirits and that ilk, they believed in such things. The problem that I'm seeing is, why don't we see werewolves with other factions? Why is lycanthropy limited to just the Wild Nation? *shrugs* like I said, it's most likely just me, its a personal thing, and it shouldn't stop other people from backing this game that like that aesthetic. I'd just like to know why...

The most important difference, IMO, between something parodic like an axe-weilding Abe Lincoln and the Native American shape-changing lies in the fact that the extra details grafted onto Abe and the others are infusions of steampunk, or envisioning a statesman as a warrior. The Natives are literally being commingled with animals, rather then being elevated over other people, they are actually becoming sub-human.

Now, of course this isn't to say that the association of Native American spiritual traditions with such ideas is necessarily invidious: the Twilight series is a lot of things, but being harshly anti-Native is not generally at the top of the list, despite the connection between native American cultures with werewolves. The thing that differentiates this from that is the use of a real-life person.

For an analogy, it's one thing to have a Jewish character in a semi-realistic setting that is a vampire. It's another thing to have that character be Rothschild.

Hey all, I apologize in advance if this has been asked already (couldn't find it), but does anyone know if:
I pledge at Cruel level but don't want four factions, can I trade in two factions worth of stuff for add-on value? Thanks!

Well, some of that was interesting.

Anyway, first post, read stuff off and on here, just signed up though, have moved around a lot and haven't always had my 40k models around but have always loved them and wargaming in general.

The things I really like about this project mainly center around it being a different setting then any of he major players. I don't bother with the P3 games for instance as I feel they are just "another" game on the market. The Wild West is an extremely iconic setting, and it should be fun to play this.

I play Salamanders in 40k, so my board is desert style. As soon as I saw this game a week or so ago I got excited just shearly on the fact I could use my board for a THIRD game and it totally fits (also have warhammer fantasy, but unfortunately the models have just sat around, but desert is still a cool setting). The terrain alone sold me. And I don't feel like any of the models in my closest are wasted by "switching games". I really liked how Romeo put it in a podcast, which I think was referenced earlier.

To the guy a page ago asking about "would you use this train in 40k", oddly I'm buying it MORE as a spaceport fixture then for WWX, and at that price, I wouldn't miss it. Outlaw has it marked for $220 after the kickstarter, but I think business will set in an that thing will quickly jump to $300. It would have to.

Really looking forward to this game. Other kickstarter projects to check out right now are Warzone, Story Wars, and Loki (not trying to derail, but there really are games on kickstarter for everyone right now). I missed the Dreadball kickstarter and am still kicking myself, so Hopefully none of you miss out on the great deals on that sight for whatever it is you're interested in.

I hope to see as many of you as possible playing this game as oddly it has got me interested in playing it competitively and casually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kanebbcksc wrote:
Hey all, I apologize in advance if this has been asked already (couldn't find it), but does anyone know if:
I pledge at Cruel level but don't want four factions, can I trade in two factions worth of stuff for add-on value? Thanks!

Yes you can. The very last FAQ on the main page explains it perfectly. It's like models for like models.

FYI the Wild West setting has been alive and well in Malifaux for the past 4 years.

@alfdrate - the best thing to do is listen to the resent podcast. It explains the shapeshifting thing. I oddly was more taken back by legitimate heroes of American History turned into somewhat of villain type figures(Not looking forward to Robert E Lee viewed that way at all) but I'm really just gonna ignore the names and treat them like just "some general" sort of thing.

So I totally get it, but I'm not gonna let fluff get in the way of me playing what looks to be a solid wild west themed war/skirmish game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
FYI the Wild West setting has been alive and well in Malifaux for the past 4 years.

Wow, I really have been out of it. Have to check that one out too. Doubt I'll pull the pledge though factoring in the ridiculous discount

You also have to remember that history is written by the victors, the white man prevailed, so Native Americans are resigned to people without a culture, or society. They have one, it's just not ours. Remember, in that same vein, Robert E. Lee was a "villain" because he chose the "wrong side" during the civil war. Had he fought for the Union, it'd be a different story. A great general yes, but he was villified by serving in the confederate army as it is. I'll try to listen to the podcast if I can (I tend to enjoy the occasional Gamer's Lounge podcast), but at the same time if you had read my post, my gripe wasn't with the shape shifting, it was with the use of real names to represent fictional characters. How hard would it have been to have created Chief Raging Bear, or something along those lines?

And you can't just ignore the names of REAL PEOPLE *sigh* I guess this is the problem when you try to meld history and fantasy sticking more closely to the former rather than the latter.

As for Wild West games, why didn't you back Black Water Gulch? or play with some of the wild west minis from Reaper?


Edit: Before any mods slag me for going off topic, I think that the discussion of the historical names being used in this game are a fantastic and on topic discussion point in relation to the game if they were to keep it "historically' accurate. It could give ideas for future expansions, possible crews, etc...

 Alfndrate wrote:

rem

As for Wild West games, why didn't you back Black Water Gulch? or play with some of the wild west minis from Reaper?


Edit: Before any mods slag me for going off topic, I think that the discussion of the historical names being used in this game are a fantastic discussion point in relation to the game if they were to keep it "historically' accurate. It could give ideas for future expansions, possible crews, etc...

Mmm two separate genres really and if I'm painting models for them does that count .

I would agree that the reaper minis are a different genre from this, but Necros has made it no secret that he planned on pursuing the Weird West idea with future expansions.

Alfndrate- As you sense, I think it's getting a bit far afield at this point, although it's a perfectly valid point of view to have. However, this game is far from trying to be "historically accurate"- it's "Weird West" to an extreme, and they're doing equal opportunity transformations to historical characters (Lincoln being an example).

I think people expressing they wished they'd not used real historical names is a valid point, as I said, but we have also already covered that ground earlier in the thread (i.e. the point's been made, and you've made it again- reasonably, I'd add- as well).

kanebbcksc wrote:
Hey all, I apologize in advance if this has been asked already (couldn't find it), but does anyone know if:
I pledge at Cruel level but don't want four factions, can I trade in two factions worth of stuff for add-on value? Thanks!

Yes, you can. There's a lot of info in the FAQ's at the bottom of the kickstarter page. But, basically, you can switch any faction pieces for other pieces of the same type--bosses for bosses, sidekicks for sidekicks, etc. Means its hard to get to cavalry models for a single faction, but you can focus on one faction with the trade-ins.

I didn't even know kickstarter was there. I was looking at Dreadball, as I was researching it most sights and links pushed me to kickstarter and I saw the crazy deal I was a few months too late on.

I did notice a really cartoony looking wild west game, but I'm not into overly cartoony models which is why I started buying more GW products after the turn of the century. At this point, I can't STAND the look of most of their older models. So some of it is the gaming buzz has just come back, and after looking at what was out there, dreadball caught my eye (obviously since it started this) and I've been searching for some stuff since.

I just looked up Maulifax and remember seeing figures in Seattle, but they never really struck a chord with me. I think growing up in PA I studied Civil War History and so a lot of the look of WWX just speaks to me. I've heard this "victors right history" stuff, but the Civil War is interesting. Plenty of Officers from the north were villainized after the war while the great leaders of the South were glorified. I think if any war in US history told it how was when the dust settled, that was the one. And as an American you should know we have no problem making our own look bad in our written history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Robert E Lee was not a villian. To this day he is still regarded as one of the greatest generals and most beloved generals. Only fools dared tarnish his name at any point. The man was just revered.

Earth Dragon wrote:
I didn't even know kickstarter was there. I was looking at Dreadball, as I was researching it most sights and links pushed me to kickstarter and I saw the crazy deal I was a few months too late on.

I did notice a really cartoony looking wild west game, but I'm not into overly cartoony models which is why I started buying more GW products after the turn of the century. At this point, I can't STAND the look of most of their older models. So some of it is the gaming buzz has just come back, and after looking at what was out there, dreadball caught my eye (obviously since it started this) and I've been searching for some stuff since.

I just looked up Maulifax and remember seeing figures in Seattle, but they never really struck a chord with me. I think growing up in PA I studied Civil War History and so a lot of the look of WWX just speaks to me. I've heard this "victors right history" stuff, but the Civil War is interesting. Plenty of Officers from the north were villainized after the war while the great leaders of the South were glorified. I think if any war in US history told it how was when the dust settled, that was the one. And as an American you should know we have no problem making our own look bad in our written history.

FYI, neither of the Wild West miniatures that I mentioned are cartoonish at all, in fact Blackwater Gulch takes a very historically accurate approach to their game with realistic proportions, and are a company with a much smaller backing than Outlaw (i.e. they're missing that battlefoam bump ). And as someone that grew up and live in Ohio, I'm perfectly aware of how people were glorified and villified on both sides of the war, but your statement of, "(Not looking forward to Robert E Lee viewed that way at all)" is a view 'generally' taken by people from the Southern States, in the deeper parts... It just surprises me to hear that come from someone from PA. Edit: Though I know that Lee didn't fight because he supported slavery, he fought because he believed more in state's rights...

And I know it has been discussed RiTides, I had dropped it until someone responded to me, no need to pick lil ole me out of the crowd .

Also why is Sitting bull a wolf? Why not a bull?

Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Look, I don't know why this is bending you so out of shape about a shapeshifting Werewolf. The Warrior Nation faction is hellbent on protecting their homeland from this crazy new technology, and since they don't have much themselves, they tap into the earth's spirit and harness extra powers. They want to wipe out all others, and actually have some sort of bonus objective that no matter what scenario you are playing, you get bonus points if you wipe out the other player.

I got that from a podcast I listened to. They were one of the teams was really excited about. So it isn't your flavor, I get it, but it helped draw me in. Lycans are awesome. Why DOES anyone else need to shapeshift? Why can't that be their thing? Why does it bother you that only they can do it?

Like you said earlier, the biggest benefit of using an alternate history is that you have an endless number of historical figures to recreate in the game. One of the guys in WWX forums was pushing for the head Ute Chieftan of the time. So while it is a bummer to some, it is a major plus to others.

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Never read twilight because the background of the story didn't interest me, it was a terrible love story at best.

Look, I don't know why this is bending you so out of shape about a shapeshifting Werewolf. The Warrior Nation faction is hellbent on protecting their homeland from this crazy new technology, and since they don't have much themselves, they tap into the earth's spirit and harness extra powers. They want to wipe out all others, and actually have some sort of bonus objective that no matter what scenario you are playing, you get bonus points if you wipe out the other player.

1) Like Buzzsaw has stated earlier, the idea revolving around making Native Americans into human/animal hybrids could be seen by some as making them sub-human, which is already stepping on toes. If the company wanted to sidestep that issue, then sprinkling werewolfs and other lycans throughout the factions would show that it's something else that is happening with humanity as a whole, instead of just with the Native Americans. It could easily have been included as a fluff entry as something that is happening because of the rapid technological growth, that mother nature is rebelling by pulling humans back towards their animialistic roots. Spread that throughout the game and you have conflict, it's considered a malady for some, but the Wild Nation embraces the gift and seeks to free those in the "civilized" lands and bring them into the fold.

2) Calling them the Wild Nation implies that they don't have a culture or a society, it's like calling the free folk in A Song of Ice and Fire wildlings because their society doesn't conform to the societal norms of the rest of Westeros.

I got that from a podcast I listened to. They were one of the teams was really excited about. So it isn't your flavor, I get it, but it helped draw me in. Lycans are awesome. Why DOES anyone else need to shapeshift? Why can't that be their thing? Why does it bother you that only they can do it?

Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy Native American culture, that is one of the reasons why I studied it when I was younger, I was really into the Sioux nation, and specifically the Hunkpapa tribe, which is why I'm a little confused as to why the game has Chief Sitting Bull as a wolf, a minotaur like creation of part human/part bison would have been more apt imo if the game were to keep this "primal" side of things. Why couldn't the Native Americans have been given bonuses when fighting technology? Perhaps they've learned tricks of the trade, why don't they fight with trained animals? I mean there are plenty of ways to keep the Native Americans interesting in the game without making them were-people...

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

Cincy has told me this once before:

 cincydooley wrote:
What's worse is that it seems that they're simply making excuses all the while holding their noses in the air to anyone critical of them.

"Oh. You don't like how we're doing it? Fine, well take our ball and you can wait until your local shop gets one."

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until Saturday, but my patience for the nonsense is wearing a bit thin.

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to learn the hows and whys of the product before I even think about backing it...

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Are you saying you like Twilight? .

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

It isn't trolling. It's an incredibly valid point and the fact that their "power" is to revert them to an even more savage form is a understandable reason for someone to be offended. It doesn't exactly do anything to dispel the noble savage stereotype while the entire time removing the "noble" part. Now, it doesn't offend me but to say someone is trolling for voicing that very reasonable concern is ignorant and irresponsible.

Disagreeing with that opinion is fine. Calling someone a troll because you disagree with their opinion is not.

Two discrete points;

First, Sitting Bull occupies a very specific place in Native American history, a spiritual leader who was martyred by the power structure after a lifetime of struggle. In a non-trivial way he has a similar place to Martin Luthor King Jr..

Second, is the transformation from human into something non-human indicatative of a loss of humanity, or is it a more light-hearted, purely mechanistic and simple transformation? Well...


Yeah...

As I'm a grown ass man, I'm not a twitard, but the main point was Lycan abilities in Native Americans has become typical 21 St century cannon, and has been glorified as a good thing, not portrayed as demeaning trait.

Differences in opinions are fine, but if that is your complaint, at some point you have to accept it, or depart from it. I understand we Americans are trained to play the victim from a young age, but just griping about it won't change it. This is direction they went, and too many people feel it is a selling point for them.

I suppose I find it hard to buy the arguments as most Americans glorify all Native Americans these days and feel they are something to honor, even the Native American tribes that rape and pillaged other Native Americans well before whites showed up. That's the part that has me rolling my eyes. Someone does something cool saying "Indians were so bad ass they battle fantastic weapons with bows and natural spirit powers!!"

So I can respect a difference in opinion and not liking lycanthropes. I don't buy the "I'm a victim" argument. And that is the direction the game is going.

On a lighter note, one of the other things that drew me in initially were the barricades. Very multi-purpose, and like most kickstarters, very good price right now. I for one plan on buying a lot of the desert bases as well to go with my desert playing board. Very much a pain doing up bases, so hopefully they loom as good as I am picturing. I understand a little will be lost, but then Again, having a model standing on genuine sand can sometimes hurt the illusion. So maybe having an artificial base may help the illusion.

We'll see. Better not buy too many.

edit: Apparently I missed a whole page of replies.

 cincydooley wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well I'm guessing you really hate Twilight......

Are you saying you like Twilight? .

I you don't like it play something else, but you are starting to just troll if you can't drop that point.

It isn't trolling. It's an incredibly valid point and the fact that their "power" is to revert them to an even more savage form is a understandable reason for someone to be offended. It doesn't exactly do anything to dispel the noble savage stereotype while the entire time removing the "noble" part. Now, it doesn't offend me but to say someone is trolling for voicing that very reasonable concern is ignorant and irresponsible.

Disagreeing with that opinion is fine. Calling someone a troll because you disagree with their opinion is not.

I think, while it's fine to be wary of this sort of depiction in principle, in this instance it seems very much like people are looking very hard for a reason to take offense. First, none of the factions are noble, the entire point of the "alt" part of this alt-history seems to be presenting all the various groups in the context of their worst aspects; the law is authoritarian, the government is oppressive, the scientists are maniacs with no regard for ethics, the outlaws are merciless butchers, and the natives are consumed with vengeance. If the natives were the only faction being depicted unfavourably, that would be one thing, but they are not.

As to shapeshifting being some sort of "natives are sub-human" subtext, I just can't see it. Native American cultural traditions make them the most logical faction to adopt the "fantasy druidic spiritualism" mantle, and that's a trope which includes shapeshifting into animal forms in pretty much every fantasy universe in which the trope appears. Attempting to cast that as sinister, even unintentionally sinister, simply doesn't follow. As a counterpoint, look at the Union faction; would you think it rational for someone to use their less-than-favourable depiction as justification for accusing the miniature company of supporting slavery?

As offensive or inoffensive as Sitting Bull the pacifist warrior of the Warrior Nation may be, you're all really looking too much into this. In fact, you're all probably putting more thought into all this than the designers probably did.

Take cookie cutter Cowboys, Indians, Outlaws, and WildWildWest Inventors. Apply historical figures and stereotypes. Done. It's really not that big of a deal that they named the character Sitting Bull or Geronimo or Hiawatha or Martin Luther King Jr. It's a giant savage wolf-man that cuts people with knives.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
I do realize how I'm cherry picking my argument by excluding Abe Lincoln and his axe-wielding mini, but at the same time there are historical parodies that already have Abe killing zombies and vampires, I think it's just the idea that these are "noble savages" and that it's okay to associate them with animals because native americans were close to animals and spirits and that ilk, they believed in such things. The problem that I'm seeing is, why don't we see werewolves with other factions? Why is lycanthropy limited to just the Wild Nation? *shrugs* like I said, it's most likely just me, its a personal thing, and it shouldn't stop other people from backing this game that like that aesthetic. I'd just like to know why...[/spoiler]

Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

Mocking the vilified untermenschen and mocking dominant culture are two different things. I can't believe such an elementary concept is escaping you.

Earth Dragon wrote:
As I'm a grown ass man, I'm not a twitard, but the main point was Lycan abilities in Native Americans has become typical 21 St century cannon, and has been glorified as a good thing, not portrayed as demeaning trait.

,.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept that the horrible, trashy drivel that is Twilight has had any affect on "typical Native American" canon for the 21st century. As a self proclaimed "grown ass man" I'd hope you'd agree.

My point was not that it is offensive - I don't personally think it is - but calling someone a troll for thinking it is is, like I said before, ignorant and irresponsible.

And the argument that "native Americans raped each other before the white man came along" is weak and far more offensive than anything this game portrays. To discount the horrible gak the white man forced upon those indigenous people is a pretty crappy viewpoint to take. The fact that you even present it reeks of bigotry.

No one is playing the victim. You pulled out the troll card and I called you on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

I don't think you understand what makes the "redskins" or the red faced Chief Wahoo offensive. Do you see any sports teams named the "Wops" or the "Chinks". Absolutely not. And we certainly don't see one called the "Ni#$*&s".

I'm certainly not about political correctness. My black friends are black and not African American. But man....there are definitely ethnic slurs and stereotypes out there that ARE offensive, the red-faced Native being one of them.

As you are from Scandinavia, I understand you have not visited the dozens of Native American tribe shows in the Northwestern United States. Many of them hold shows about their cultures summoning spirits, shapeshifting, being magical healers, wolves taking to the moon to explain this that or the other thing, the whole works. There was a fairly elaborate one near Seattle.

If shape-shifting doesn't float your boat that's fine, but it's not an attack on Natives.

Earth Dragon wrote:
As you are from Scandinavia, I understand you have not visited the dozens of Native American tribe shows in the Northwestern United States. Many of them hold shows about their cultures summoning spirits, shapeshifting, being magical healers, wolves taking to the moon to explain this that or the other thing, the whole works. There was a fairly elaborate one near Seattle.

Don't make assumptions on my behalf, friend. It's sleazy and patronizing.

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

Or, you know, maybe fiction doesn't prevent something from being offensive, nor does it stop people from disagreeing with its message. Lots of propaganda's been make believe, but that doesn't stop it from being offensive, racist, etc. Not saying that WWX necessarily crosses the line, but "make believe" isn't an excuse.

And now were actually arguing over the redskins.......

Sorry but we have gotten way off

I can't believe this is turning into a political statement

Earth Dragon wrote:
I can't believe this is turning into a political statement

Nearly every action in society is a political action. We just don't recognize them as such.

Well, I don't like to give money to people I disagree with if I can help it, so, well, I found the native american portrayal argument worth commenting on. It's not something I'm personally invested in enough to get upset about it, but it certainly hasn't endeared the designers to me, either.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
As you are from Scandinavia, I understand you have not visited the dozens of Native American tribe shows in the Northwestern United States. Many of them hold shows about their cultures summoning spirits, shapeshifting, being magical healers, wolves taking to the moon to explain this that or the other thing, the whole works. There was a fairly elaborate one near Seattle.

Don't make assumptions on my behalf, friend. It's sleazy and patronizing.

Then don't assume that were stuck up Americans trying to disrespect "the conquered". The point is we made too much progress in the last generation to have people act like that is the case.

As some have proven, they had no clue that Robert E Lee is celebrate as a great man everywhere, regardless that he fought for the South. Same with Longstreet, Stonewall, Pickett......it's just ignorant to claim we piss on the "conquered" these days.

If you guy are looking to make a political statement, this really isn't the right venue, and that's what makes it trolling

You're really missing the point here. And please, do not speak on behalf of the rest of the Americans involved in this conversation making cogent points.

No one is trying to make a political statement, and you seem to be missing that fact. People have simply stated they question whether or not portraying this group of people as the most obvious and lazy trope is the best option.

@cincydooley (sp?) I think I know exactly what some may find offensive about it, and since my family has Cherokee descendants (I'm 4th generation) I think I can comment on it. We, my family, doesn't it find it offensive at all, just kinda silly! I was born in northern Ohio and had to hear plenty about the "Indians" team name being offensive. Usually, from "White Americans" funnily enough! Ask most Native Americans and they will likely tell you that they don't find this kind of drivel offensive. Anyway, that's the last I'm gonna say on this silliness...

WWX has some pretty cool concept art and model design; I hope there is huge surge over the next week in pledges... I want the Lawmen!!!

Cincy, now you are speaking for others. Go read some of those comments. One guy was clearly playing a victim bringing in MLK and other stretches.

I plan on playing the Warrior Nation. They have a unique feel compared to the rest. They have interesting figures, including a 3-man team that calls an invincible spirit that only goes away after killing the three spirit callers. It's a draw for me, someone who has some Native American in me from my mothers dad.

I do not view this as insulting or any different then what others have done in other games, whether it's an "evil" central church organization, the Norse are all servants of chaos, egyptians are always skeletons.....far worse travesties have been portrayed then an "alternate reality" that let's me assist Native Americans in defending their homeland

some people really need to remove the broom that is stuck up theyr ass. This is as ridiculous as complaining about the hell dorado saracen factrions.

streetsamurai wrote:
some people really need to remove the broom that is stuck up theyr ass. This is as ridiculous as complaining about the hell dorado saracen factrions.

It's truly a disgrace that our community has devolved to a point where this kind of comments are allowed to be aired, I agree. You're not a part of the solution, though, you're a part of the problem, friend.

In some native american cultures there was a belief in skinwalkers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin-walker

all wwx did was make the myth "true" in there setting.
My opion is that the shapeshifting makes them more than human not less. I really like the concept and thank it will be fun to paint.

you guys realize that these are little plastic men Right? it is supposed to be fun!

and personally Im gonna have to agree with streetsamurai that some people need to get over themselves. ITS LITTLE PLASTIC MEN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!

And the Censored Eleven are just cartoons, eh?

My Outlaws are going to Kill Rape & Burn there way through WWX they won't care about the color of anyone skin. They will only care about the coin in your purse and the gold in your teeth.

I think it best if we leave this particular tangent, if people desire they can split it off to the discussion board or the OT zone.

That way this thread can stay focused on the project.

Thanks.

This doesn't look awful. I'd be curious to learn how the rules actually play out in the practice as that's basically issue #1 for me in games.

The models also look like they're nice. I'll agree that the Native American stuff is poor taste as I actually cringed when I scrolled past it. I don't think it puts the line into the "Unplayable" category for me, but it's defiantly a check in the "minus" column. That said since we're not supposed be discussing that particular aspect of it, I'll avoid commenting in any further depth.

Hi guys,
I thought I that I would come and join the discussion if I may. The role of good and bad within WWX is not really associated to each faction per se. I have not seen anyone mention the Dark Council yet (I may have missed it though) and they are a huge roll within the WWX universe. It is due to their manipulation of each faction that has caused this resulting divide between the people. Why? I don't know the purpose as of yet. But I am sure that the Warrior Nation do, as they are the only people to either withstand their power (if power is what the Dark Council have) or avoid it. To me, I believe when we find out how they attune themselves to the earth, we may learn this secret imho. As to the good and bad, well that has always been a view point that changes dependant upon your current position within the world. What if the Dark Council are actually the good guys? What if there were very few of them, and they would not be able to survive in harmony with the other factions around for fear of extinction? Therefore to be able to survive, they would have to limit the number of the opposition by killing them somehow or by allying with one or more factions. As we understand that the Dark Council is now a manipulative race/faction/group of people, we could also surmise this is because it would be the best tactic to reduce numbers, as every death on either side, would only benefit the Dark Council, irrespective of the victor. This is only a colourful theory in my head and I am sure I will come up with lots more before we find out, hehe.

Although the Enlightened look like zombies, they are indeed engineers and inventors, that when corrupted by the Dark Council, have been able to modify their bodies to better there own standing within the universe, for defence or for aggression? I am also unsure at this time.

Personally, I am going to lean towards the Warrior Nation, as both the models look awesome (you may of heard me say that a few times now I think, hehe) and I like the idea of becoming one with the earth (not in a hippy way, more like an understanding how the earth balances itself). I used to be in to long distance running, camping, mountaineering and rock climbing, so that is how I summarise my connection with them, I really like the energy beast horses also, as they look strong and thick set and have a bit more character about them.

Anyway, trying to keep it short. So I will give someone else a chance to come up with a theory

Mick

I like a number of the models individually, but overall, as a game, it's just another set of tired stereotypes and overused ideas. When I first saw the use of historical figures, I thought "that is kind of neat", but as I look at it more it leaves me feeling a bit nauseous and seems a bit disrespectful to our histories. Do we really need another Abe Lincoln, Vampire Hunter?

I'll probably pick up some of the individual models, but will pass on the game as a whole.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

kanebbcksc wrote:
Man, no kidding! This is getting almost as silly as a person raising a stink over the Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins franchise names... I don't see anyone complaining about Saltines being called crackers! Get over it! A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-E R-E-A-L-I-T-Y guys and gals... it's not real! Make believe and all that. Might as well boycott GW since Space Marines are the most xenophobic racist species ever. Or, boycott Bolt Action since they have the Nazi armies. Geez...

Mocking the vilified untermenschen and mocking dominant culture are two different things. I can't believe such an elementary concept is escaping you.

You've still singularly failed to demonstrate that the intention, or even the result, is to mock.

Mick- you said Warrior Nation, as I did, but I've seen others say Wild Nation. It's "warrior", right?

I am wondering about putting a trollbloods war wagon chassis on the back of that Elk

It is Warrior Nation, I misread it, and for that I am sorry

I originally was looking at it on my phone, and never bothered to check it once on a proper desktop.

RiTides,
It is indeed Warrior Nation as Alfndrate now suggests. I really think that this army will suit me down to the ground, as it is in-your-face action with a naughty axe of +5 Badassness I am hoping the Warrior Nation can benefit from their bosses by getting animal traits which represent the boss. E.g. Wolf boss allows quicker movement and CC abilities, Hawk boss could allow hit and run tactics, Scorpion boss = killing blow, Spider Boss = climbing terrain at normal speed. These are me just thinking of random animals, as I am unaware what animals you have, so just thinking of cool abilities tbh.

Any more news on that sweet train and the ability to purchase additional track sections?

 Alpharius wrote:
Any more news on that sweet train and the ability to purchase additional track sections?

Seconded! That's the most exciting part of this KS for me so far (well, that and the thought of adding pipes to those buildings for WM)

What I know is the train itself is about 18" between the four cars, comes with two feet of track, and additional track will be posted as a stretch goal if it hasnt been already. No clue what kind of joints and switches that track will have and if you'll have to incorporate it into the terrain, or if it will nicely set of top without looking too funny.

One of the big sellers for me personally as well. I'm a huge fan of multi purpose models.

I PM'ed Mick, but does anyone else know if it's possible to just pledge for the giant elk and nothing else? I may want 2 of those... still pondering, but putting a trollbloods war wagon chassis on top could be epic

There's the $45 "hold my spot" level. You pledge $X (but at least $45) and then claim that level. You will get the survey at the end and get to choose where to spend your money.

I don't know if the 5% off is already calculated in...

 RiTides wrote:
I PM'ed Mick, but does anyone else know if it's possible to just pledge for the giant elk and nothing else? I may want 2 of those... still pondering, but putting a trollbloods war wagon chassis on top could be epic

I believe if you pick "Nasty" which is $45 pledge you can then order a Great Elk, plus add on another for a total of $74.

From my reading, that's exactly the point of "Nasty," to snag exactly what you want.

Hi guys, Just saw your question about the train tracks and thought I would give you the details you are looking for.
Nice idea about the terrain with pipes to. As I am sure they need a bit of roughing up and some more detail to give them a more Sci-Fi look.
Have you got any inspiration pictures that inspire you? As I am just penning out my board now and was thinking of some sort of power plant,
or maybe raising the track like a sky rail.

Quoted By Outlaw Yesterday.

It should be a great Monday for some reveals and some more positive growth.
Seems everyone is really jumping on board. Oh, and I almost forgot.
We'll be adding the Union Rail Tracks at some point in the evening as a mini stretch goal.
That should take care of anyone looking to set up their table with a full rail system.

Hope it helps

Mick

5% is calculated, since if you look at the older post it shows $40, so $37 is what it'll cost per model.

Adding this since there was no upper-case letters in that statement......


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sky rail........damn it Mike!! Stop giving me ideas!!

$74, hmmmm! Tempting and thanks for the info guys.

Do you think it's a good enough discount to justify pledging for them now? Seems to be... and are they in any particular wave for release date, or all together?

Also thanks to Mick for the hilarious PM now that he knows how to get them

 Madmick wrote:
Hi guys, Just saw your question about the train tracks and thought I would give you the details you are looking for.
Nice idea about the terrain with pipes to. As I am sure they need a bit of roughing up and some more detail to give them a more Sci-Fi look.
Have you got any inspiration pictures that inspire you? As I am just penning out my board now and was thinking of some sort of power plant,
or maybe raising the track like a sky rail.

Quoted By Outlaw Yesterday.

It should be a great Monday for some reveals and some more positive growth.
Seems everyone is really jumping on board. Oh, and I almost forgot.
We'll be adding the Union Rail Tracks at some point in the evening as a mini stretch goal.
That should take care of anyone looking to set up their table with a full rail system.

Hope it helps

Mick

This does help - quite a bit!

Once the "Rail Stretch" is announced, I'll be in for the train + some extras!

I looked on the KS amd dodnt see it. s this thing an actual functional train?

Was on the bottom of the Updates page.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildwestexodus/wild-west-exodus-sci-fi-western-miniatures-game/posts/423425

So no? They're saying it's made from resin, so I'm guessing it isn't a functional train.

The train is pretty tempting. Not sure if I like the locomotive or not. Does it have any interior detail at all?

Hmm, I'll have to see its scale. 2 foot of train + 2 foot of track sounds like you'd need to buy another 2 foot of track to complete a table--and that's 165 for the initial plus say another 30 or so for the track (I'm guessing)? So 200 for terrain--*shrug*, depends on size!

@Cincydooly,
It will be cast in solid resin. WE are told that it will contain the same amount as what is found in a titan from FW.
So from the sounds of it there will be no moving parts, unless the guns move.
I also believe that it won't be complete till October, but they are trying to get things out asap, so maybe same time as models.

Some of us are planning on getting a load of track pieces in order to create a railway theme.
Whilst I was lying in bed awake thinking about it the other night (try not to picture it, if you can), I was was wondering how a rotating board would work.
Puzzled? I nearly wet the bed tbh. Well, come a little closer and let me tell you dear reader. Closer, closer. Thats it.

Train starts in the centre of the board and is given a movement value of Xmph in Inches,

/hazy mist: do you remember the films where cowboys and indians rode along the side a train in order to board it? do you? /hazy mist dissipates

Now then, the LSV/HSV ladened with troops have to catch up to the train and then board it.
The train will move at differing speeds dependant on damage taken and a random movement modifier (due to train drivers slight alterations to the throttle control thingy button).
Once the train is mounted it has one more move action before stopping (this is a good time for the train hostess to collect all the dinner plates in) and the troops are allowed to deploy from the train.
From here on in, troops will only be able to deploy to side in which there are enemy models (so no getting out of the other side and waiting for the last turn of the game!!).

To make this scenario more interesting. The person that annihilates all of the opposing forces is permitted to take the train home and keep it forever.

I think this may need a bit of play testing, as we don't really have the waitress on the train stats yet.
However, when we do, I shall pop over and provide a complementary sales pitch.
Tea and coffee will be provided on the table at the back of the room. Please clean up after yourselves.

Thought? Discuss.........

Mick

Edit: @RiTides: No problems, glad it made you smile, hehe

Another Edit: Stretch goal met for the 3x Civilians:

 RiTides wrote:
$74, hmmmm! Tempting and thanks for the info guys.

Do you think it's a good enough discount to justify pledging for them now? Seems to be... and are they in any particular wave for release date, or all together?

Also thanks to Mick for the hilarious PM now that he knows how to get them

I always do the price comparison for any of this stuff. Do you wanna get them for $74 from what you know now? Or wait to see them in person and pay $100-110? Sometimes it's worth the wait, othertimes I'd prefer a discount.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
Hmm, I'll have to see its scale. 2 foot of train + 2 foot of track sounds like you'd need to buy another 2 foot of track to complete a table--and that's 165 for the initial plus say another 30 or so for the track (I'm guessing)? So 200 for terrain--*shrug*, depends on size!

You could just go to a hobby shop it's cheaper, or for those wanting a.little more personal plasticard is cheap and easy.

The image for the track sections has just been posted. Prices are going to be Straight Section (6") $8 each, left Curve (9") $10 each
, right Curve (9") $10 each. Really wish i could get the train but hey ho birthday tomorrow so maybe

Wild West Exodus Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildwestexodus/wild-west-exodus-sci-fi-western-miniatures-game

Wild West Exodus Forum: http://www.wildwestexodusforum.com/index.php

Ooooh... nice!

What's the recommended table size in a game of Wild West Exodus?

@Alpharius,
Depends what size you have in mind? I believe 4x4 or 6x4 should be ok. You decided on anything yet?

Edit:

I have to say this is the funniest and yet most practical rule I have ever seen, lol. Being able to kill civilians or use them as meat shields!!

I think this has the potential to add a lot of colour to the game and could drastically change peoples tactics.
But how would Lawmen work around this? gain a health point for a successful rescue perhaps? Unable to shoot due to moral grounds?
have a special rule like advantage shot? that would allow the Lawmen to have an addition chance to not allow the wound to be taken by the civi?

Think I am gonna have to ponder about this one. /Hmmm

Quote by Outlaw:[u]

This group of models are completely optional in game play but each mission will randomly add these to the table. Based on a dice roll while setting up terrain any number of civilians may take up the battle field.

When a model is within 1" of any civilian model that model gets a +1 to their armor and receives cover. Each civilian has 1 wound and any shot fired at the model taking cover behind a civilian may give 1 wound to the civilian model instead. Once the civilian has taken the wound they are removed from play.

Civilians can also be dragged against their will around the table by any model in base to base contact. This is to represent them being taken hostage. A model moving with a civilian must use 1 action to hold on to the civilian. When the model taking the civilian hostage chooses to stop spending actions on keeping it close the civilian is free and the model releasing the civilian acts as normal.

The board were going to be constructing for it is a 4x4. Rules say it can be anywhere from 4x4 to 4x8 depending on the point size.

I guess the train is neat but it would have been cooler of it was actually able to move. Also need to know if its going to be a solid cast or detailed on the interior. Solid cast would be disappointing.

@Cincidooly,
Sorry, I think it will be a solid train. I believe that each piece will be solid tbh. It doesn't mean that it may not be different in the future when Outlaw Miniatures is set up, running and established

Beat me to the answer

From the price, it'd have to be solid. The molds would be far more extensive for detailed interior.

I first thought about using some other train, but it's like playing with GI Joes and transformers at the same time: there is that obvious appearance of these don't go together. Painted models and artificial scenery just seem to go better together for me.

 cincydooley wrote:
So no? They're saying it's made from resin, so I'm guessing it isn't a functional train.

Functional model trains are found in a different hobby called model railroading...

I'm sure it would be possible to hollow out the engine and add a model RR chassis to it....

timd wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
So no? They're saying it's made from resin, so I'm guessing it isn't a functional train.

Functional model trains are found in a different hobby called model railroading...

I'm sure it would be possible to hollow out the engine and add a model RR chassis to it....

Oh really? Gee, thanks for that. I had no idea.

Was kinda thinking that it would be solid, but that's a shame. It could have been very cool if it was open and models could go in it. As it is right now it's basically a piece of terrain. Boo. Cest la vie.

Now just to decide if we get all 4 factions with our pledge, or swap the 3rd and 4th to add the wave 2 bosses and underbosses. Also have to decide what we're swapping the rotten stuff for.

@Cincydooley,
Are you aware that you get extra scenarios in the comic? you can get them at the end of the year also, with the yearly annual/book, but it will be more expensive, but contain a bit more content.

I'm thinking of a 4 x 4 table, 2 factions and some buildings.

Got pricey past, but... oh well!

It will be able to double for my Blackwater Gulch stuff too - bonus there!

@Alpharius,
I have heard a few people opt for using it for different things. Warmachine, Malifaux, 40K, WWX. So it looks as though you a fair few people can get use out of it tbh.

Do you suffer from shiny syndrome to? I was only supposed to get a wicked!! Corrupt and train later and I'm a dribbling wreck, lol.

 Madmick wrote:
@Cincydooley,
Are you aware that you get extra scenarios in the comic? you can get them at the end of the year also, with the yearly annual/book, but it will be more expensive, but contain a bit more content.

I have no interest whatsoever in the comic, even if there are scenarios. If someone tells me in November that there is "can't miss" stuff in there maybe ill pick one up, but I don't have much interest in it right now. Appreciate the heads up though.

Has anyone tried the rules? It kind of looks like Warmachine with d10s instead of 2d6s. Is that pretty much correct?

Hello all

I have been following this thread since this kickstarter launched and I have some questions about this game.
Outlaw miniatures is promoting this game as either a skirmish or a full fledged larger game (almost like 40k). So what scale is it gonna be for the tournament scene? I feel like its gonna be larger scale with the amount of different miniatures being released.
Will this make the skirmish level almost an afterthought?
What point cost system are they planning to use? (like 40k or warmachine?)
The pledge levels are kinda confusing to me. what level would someone need to pledge to build a normal army. why so many hired hands? are they like the cannon fodder of the army?

Thanks in advance.

Download the rules from th WWX website. They'll help answer a lot of your Qs.

--From my read thru, the game lookalike it will play just fine with a starter box.
--who cares about the "tournament scene"
--the bosses range from about 110-175 points. Hired hands are in the neighborhood of 20-25.

You could get two people reasonably into the Game of the $115 pledge. They shouldn't be that confusing. I mean, they even have pictures that show you everything you get.

Oddly it feels like it may actually be able to do either well. It'll probably take some decent amount of play to figure out where the competition is at it's highest. Wicked seems like a safe level to pledge if really interested but don't want to fully commit, fiendish if you are one who has to try everything. Sadly many of us keep getting pushed to higher levels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildwestexodus/wild-west-exodus-sci-fi-western-miniatures-game/posts/425620

Check out the recent update on enlightened models. Interesting to say the least

The new enlightened look great, I'll be adding a bunch of those I think. Looking forward to wave 2 of the outlaws being unlocked, I really hope we can order some of them too.

They aren't for me. I'll grab a few since I'm interested in running scenarios in this game, but Enlightened will be my weakest army.

It seems lots of others like them so it is what it is.

I really like the new HH for the Enlightened, looking forward to having a lot of things scuttling around my town

The comic is the best innovations I've seen in the mini industry in a long time. If I pledge, it will be mostly because of this.

Does anyone knows what will be the playing style of each factions?

streetsamurai wrote:
The comic is the best innovations I've seen in the mini industry in a long time. If I pledge, it will be mostly because of this.

Does anyone knows what will be the playing style of each factions?

Seriously? The comic is the most innovative thing? That's seems like a bit of a reach, eh?

 cincydooley wrote:

streetsamurai wrote:
The comic is the best innovations I've seen in the mini industry in a long time. If I pledge, it will be mostly because of this.

Does anyone knows what will be the playing style of each factions?

Seriously? The comic is the most innovative thing? That's seems like a bit of a reach, eh?

Yeah, I don't quite get that post either... I mean Black Library is starting to release graphic novels...

For me, the most "innovative thing" of the last 5 years or so is the diceless miniatures games like Malifaux or Freebooter's Fate. Perhaps even the movement system of MERCs. But a comic book? C'mon son!

 cincydooley wrote:
Download the rules from th WWX website. They'll help answer a lot of your Qs.

--From my read thru, the game lookalike it will play just fine with a starter box.
--who cares about the "tournament scene"
--the bosses range from about 110-175 points. Hired hands are in the neighborhood of 20-25.

You could get two people reasonably into the Game of the $115 pledge. They shouldn't be that confusing. I mean, they even have pictures that show you everything you get.

Some of us like tourneys so saying "who cares" is rather rude. To answer that question though one of the stretch goals is tickets to the tourney. Also it looks like they will be handing out ladies of the west at adepticon.

Yes, the comic book is quite an innovative idea. Exactly how well it all works out is yet to be seen, but it certainly has the potential to be quite a game changer.

For those not totally up on the concept, the back of each comic book will contain new scenarios/rules allowing players to re-create the battles featured in each comic.

So not only is the comic used centrally to move the story along (whereas most comics traditionally have just been used as side-stories for those game companies that have used them), but they are also a cheap and easy method to constantly push out new rules and scenarios to players.

And then re-issuing them again at the end of the year in a compilation volume should help to alleviate some of that feeling of 'missing key stuff' for those players who don't collect it on a regular basis.

 yakface wrote:

Yes, the comic book is quite an innovative idea. Exactly how well it all works out is yet to be seen, but it certainly has the potential to be quite a game changer.

For those not totally up on the concept, the back of each comic book will contain new scenarios/rules allowing players to re-create the battles featured in each comic.

So not only is the comic used centrally to move the story along (whereas most comics traditionally have just been used as side-stories for those game companies that have used them), but they are also a cheap and easy method to constantly push out new rules and scenarios to players.

And then re-issuing them again at the end of the year in a compilation volume should help to alleviate some of that feeling of 'missing key stuff' for those players who don't collect it on a regular basis.

But how are the extras at the back of the comic book different than a company that releases a free/cheap pdf with the just the scenarios, "new models", "and more"? Not to mention that I would have to pay for these extras. I mean the comic could turn out to be nothing special, but the scenarios and rules are good.

I guess when you consider that it's a comic book first, and a gaming/hobby publication second, that's a first, but just to compare it to something that started at the same time as the first issue of WWX Comic (February 1st, 2013). Wyrd Chronicles #4 (A reboot of the old magazine), is a free download that has painting tips, rules articles, model rules, and multiplayer rules. It just seems superfluous

 Alfndrate wrote:

But how are the extras at the back of the comic book different than a company that releases a free/cheap pdf with the just the scenarios, "new models", "and more"? Not to mention that I would have to pay for these extras. I mean the comic could turn out to be nothing special, but the scenarios and rules are good.

I guess when you consider that it's a comic book first, and a gaming/hobby publication second, that's a first, but just to compare it to something that started at the same time as the first issue of WWX Comic (February 1st, 2013). Wyrd Chronicles #4 (A reboot of the old magazine), is a free download that has painting tips, rules articles, model rules, and multiplayer rules. It just seems superfluous

IMHO, it will all come down to the production values of the material involved. If they are top notch, then it seems like a great idea to me.

The reason is, most games simply have background material which is then pushed along with new rules releases...new short stories, new references to things happening in their world, etc. But at least to me, that feels much more like 'background'. The idea of having a comic as the core central way that the story of the game is progressed is pretty intriguing, because I would imagine that will make the story seem much more central to the game. Hell, its a whole lot easier to get people to read a comic than a story (no matter how short).

So then if there is this much more central story than most games, having rules and scenarios released each month to help recreate these instances would be a way to have players feel a lot more connected to this story than they do in other games, because they're literally playing along with the story continuously. Not only do they get new ways to play the game (new scenarios), but they'd also get the inspiration for the game (the story in the comic) packaged together with it.

I don't think its a concept that should be applied to every game (or even any other game), but I do think it offers something potentially very unique for this game.

But hasn't Privateer beeing doing this pretty regularly for a while now, with alternative rules and new scenarios in No Quarter? And don't they progress the story?

Heck, even GW releases new scenarios at least once a quarter in the much maligned White Dwarf.....They don't "progress the story" but GW has plenty of other outlets for that.

@Emp - Didn't mean to come off as dismissive, and I understand there are plenty of people that are big time tournament gamers. Its unfortunate, to me, that tournament play is the primary concern of so many, though. I personally think narrative, casual play is more appopriate for a leisure, hobby activity, but then again it get my competetive juices flowing in other ways and understand if others don't. Didn't mean for it to come off as rude, but for me, is it good for tournament play is like, the 5th or 6th thing on the checklist after things like, "do I like the theme/universe," "do I like the models," and "is the game fun to play."

I was going to say, PP and Wyrd progress their respective stories, I think what Yak is saying about the innovative side of things is that it's a comic book instead of short stories, among a few other things.

The two guys doing the comic, do they have a background in comics, like from what I can find, Craig Gallant is a part of the d6 Generation Podcast, but I can't find anything on the artist.

It doesn't really seem all that innovative to me, and with the comic only being released 6 times a year, the story can't progress all that much, at least in comparison to other comic publications. They will have to spend plenty of time building the story. I think to really sell the idea, they could give up a chunk of the first issue for free so people who are skeptical about it can read it without spending the money on it.

 yakface wrote:

Yes, the comic book is quite an innovative idea. Exactly how well it all works out is yet to be seen, but it certainly has the potential to be quite a game changer.

For those not totally up on the concept, the back of each comic book will contain new scenarios/rules allowing players to re-create the battles featured in each comic.

So not only is the comic used centrally to move the story along (whereas most comics traditionally have just been used as side-stories for those game companies that have used them), but they are also a cheap and easy method to constantly push out new rules and scenarios to players.

And then re-issuing them again at the end of the year in a compilation volume should help to alleviate some of that feeling of 'missing key stuff' for those players who don't collect it on a regular basis.

Sounds an awful lot like Chapter Approved to me, just conveyed in a comic rather than a magazine. Not that I'm complaining of course, I wish GW would go back to those days, but while interesting, I would hardly call it innovative.

As for these new Enlightened; bloody hell, why couldn't these have been the wave 1 guys? Now I have to choose between dropping some of the character pieces I really want to afford these, or increasing my pledge and adding them but not eating for three days next week :(

@Alfndrate,
The Comic is coming out with 6x for the first year and will be 12x from the year after.

I have never been to a real gaming tournament, so I don't really appreciate what ACTUALLY takes place in the format of things.
However, as this game has a variety of different styles (Skirmish, Battle and everything in between), would it be feasible to have a tournament include a variety of the structures?

E.g. Start of as a big battle for game 1.
Then as some of your troops have been killed a middle points games is played for game 2.
Then a skirmish game for the final as you near the overall objective of that particular tournament?

I think that the comic idea is pretty fun tbh. I have always felt a bit overwhelmed at the concept of trying to get up to date bit 40K novels,
as the time investment would be HUGE! (I am dyslexic which slows things even more) Please correct me if I am wrong and you are able to keep up easily though.

A comic could be used as an aide to gain interest in a younger audience, perhaps a son/daughter quality time type of activity?
Also, as a military veteran, when I went away on ops and came back, the world didn't stand still while I was away, so you've guessed it. I was further behind! :(
In the UK there are quite a few people into gaming, so going away and coming back to a few comics isn't as daunting. Not that I am expecting my scenario to be the norm.

I have just seen, the new HH for wave 2 Enlightened! they look a whole lot better than wave 1 imho and really please with this result.
I can only hope the ones being redone for wave 1 are equally as nice. But as we say on the KS'er. In Jesse we trust.
The Enlightened, for me, are still in 4th place though. First place being Warrior Nation, 2nd place is Outlaws and 3rd place Union.

The new Enlightened that people are talking about:



I'm not really a big fan.

I like the bipedal versions better - aside from maybe the Spider looking one here...

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfndrate,
The Comic is coming out with 6x for the first year and will be 12x from the year after.

Where is this stated? The page for both the comic and the subscription mention nothing beyond the first year's issues. And I bet that if the comic series is a flop, the company won't continue pumping it out, as such an endeavor would be a waste of money. If it's a hit, I could see this changing.

I have never been to a real gaming tournament, so I don't really appreciate what ACTUALLY takes place in the format of things.
However, as this game has a variety of different styles (Skirmish, Battle and everything in between), would it be feasible to have a tournament include a variety of the structures?

E.g. Start of as a big battle for game 1.
Then as some of your troops have been killed a middle points games is played for game 2.
Then a skirmish game for the final as you near the overall objective of that particular tournament?

You want to keep the points sizes the same throughout the tournament for the most part, though there is nothing stopping you from doing something like that. Those tend to be less competitive tournaments for some odd reason.

I think that the comic idea is pretty fun tbh. I have always felt a bit overwhelmed at the concept of trying to get up to date bit 40K novels,
as the time investment would be HUGE! (I am dyslexic which slows things even more) Please correct me if I am wrong and you are able to keep up easily though.

A comic could be used as an aide to gain interest in a younger audience, perhaps a son/daughter quality time type of activity?
Also, as a military veteran, when I went away on ops and came back, the world didn't stand still while I was away, so you've guessed it. I was further behind! :(
In the UK there are quite a few people into gaming, so going away and coming back to a few comics isn't as daunting. Not that I am expecting my scenario to be the norm.

As someone that recently started collecting comics, I was EXTREMELY daunted because I didn't know what had been happening in the story, what was going on with the characters, or anything else related to the issue I was thinking of buying. Telling the story through your comic isn't a bad idea, but using it to sell scenarios, model rules, etc... is a bad idea (imo). I've also rarely seen younger crowds in the like 6 comic stores I live by. Sure it's anecdotal evidence, but when I go in, and I'm the youngest person there by probably a decade, ya know that younger kids aren't going to be the ones to pick up this comic. Or would the FLGS that stocks this game be expected to sell the comic too? You'd have better luck with a volunteer force ala Pressgangers, Henchman, or old GW Outriders, at least until the game gets going. What if I have no interest in the comic, but I want to keep expanding my ability to play with new stuff, I have to wait until the end of the year collection comes out. Again, why can't these just be released as their own pdfs through the website. I don't care if they charge a dollar for the pdf, but I'm assuming the comic will be sold for 3.99 an issue (the subscription price works out to 3.67 an issue), and who knows how much the end of year collection would be sold for.
You don't have to be up to date on 40k novels, because the story doesn't progress. Most stories take place in the past and the present, none of them take place in the future. The Horus Heresy novels expand upon and change the knowledge we have, but there's no storyline to advance the 40k universe.

Without anything to really go on besides the word of you, earth dragon, and anyone else that is super duper excited for this game, I don't really have any reason to pick up the comic without seeing a few pages of it. You guys are heavily invested, and that's completely okay, but it's hard to get an objective opinion about the stuff related to this release.


Edit: Those new enlightened look similar to the Steampunk Abominations from Malifaux, just less gruesome

@Alfndrate,
Outlaw mentioned the comic release schedule a few weeks ago, when I first got onto the KS'er. not sure where it was though, as I was bouncing all over the site to get up to date, hehe.

There is also a page of the comic on the BoLS site:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/12/what-is-wild-west-exodus.html

and the KS'er Home page.

Not really a lot of info. but since you get the first year in the Rotten pledge. Well, may as well try it

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfndrate,
Outlaw mentioned the comic release schedule a few weeks ago, when I first got onto the KS'er. not sure where it was though, as I was bouncing all over the site to get up to date, hehe.

There is also a page of the comic on the BoLS site:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/12/what-is-wild-west-exodus.html

and the KS'er Home page.

Not really a lot of info. but since you get the first year in the Rotten pledge. Well, may as well try it

Or trade it for minis you'd actually like ;-)

 Alpharius wrote:
The new Enlightened that people are talking about:



I'm not really a big fan.

I like the bipedal versions better - aside from maybe the Spider looking one here...

Hello source of gyro-stablized mono-wheels...

hopefully, they'll work on the matching joint of the body and the machine, as right now, it look too much like two random mini glued together.

I'm hoping the Lawmen faction ($375K unlock) and the Holy Order ($475K unlock) are reached as they sound like interesting factions.

The Warrior Nation and the Enlightened don't appeal to me, and having 'just' Union and Outlaws seems a bit 'meh' for the investment.

Though with 6 days left and Zombicide Season 2 currently running... it doesn't seem likely.

If lawmen unlocked I'd be stoked and probably go in. As it stands I'm not sure I'm going to invest. I like a few of the models but I have to balance the like of the models vs. opportunity to play vs. actual cost and right now opportunity to play is slightly outweighing the other two.

streetsamurai wrote:
hopefully, they'll work on the matching joint of the body and the machine, as right now, it look too much like two random mini glued together.

Well I have to disagree there. I think the are wheely great. hehe

As for the Lawmen unlocking:
I hear it from a lot of people, that they would pledge if they unlocked (I would love them to also).
But if everyone sits on the fence and waits for someone else to pledge first (who is also waiting for you to pledge first),
all you get is that last minute rush and maybe not achieve as high as it could have been.

Just saying, but everyone has their reasons I guess and there is nothing wrong with that.

Anyone know if there are different head options for the base troopers? They kind of look like clones with the same facial hair and hair styles.

Actually now that I'm looking at the Enlightened a little more closely, they really do look like two minis glued together without much forethought...

They're supposed to be servants of some sort I'm guessing by the name "Hired Hands" right? Absolutely nothing about them looks like they might be useable as anything other than a combat piece. Unless of course they're people that were caught sneaking around or stealing things from the Enlightened, and this is their punishment.. Still, for being things that just were cut up, they are remarkably "clean and tidy"... Their shirts are tucked in, they're in a single piece, nothing looks broken, even the head with the skull cut into is nice and neat...

And the facial expressions all look similar :-\

 Madmick wrote:
As for the Lawmen unlocking:
I hear it from a lot of people, that they would pledge if they unlocked (I would love them to also).
But if everyone sits on the fence and waits for someone else to pledge first (who is also waiting for you to pledge first),
all you get is that last minute rush and maybe not achieve as high as it could have been.

Just saying, but everyone has their reasons I guess and there is nothing wrong with that.

Except that if you're running the kickstarter, and you realize you have a large amount of people wanting x stretch goal but don't want to pledge until that goal is hit, you should probably do something to make it more enticing, or else everyone is going to sit on their laurels and not pledge. Remember, you're asking people to give up several hundred dollars of their hard earned cash to something that's not even out.

@Alfndrate,
I totally agree with your assessment about luring people in.
when I looked a few other games I saw Hell D'orado not really giving much away and EotD not doing much. Then I looked at WWX and have to admit that approx 70% discount is an amazing deal. I feel people have to witness the actual event of being given something to believe that they have. We was given 2x BF bags, extra side kicks, bosses, heavies, terrain, mercs, ladies and we are not done yet!! So I understand you feel I am a little biased, but I chose WWX over the other for, in part, this reason.

Living in the UK, I had to minimise postage of multiple games, therefore committing to just one. I chose WWX as I heard the people that were involved and knew they were high profile within the industry and want to stay there. I think that this lends it's self to the amount that is on offer, which in my mind is a lot. I was happy with what I got 2 weeks ago for my Corrupt level pledge. I see anything else as a bonus tbh. Saying that, I did have to put down some more for the train, but cant afford more track. So I think my board will be an end of the line type track, or maybe a blown up segment in the middle so no track is needed. Being in the military makes you kind of resourceful hehe

Anyway, mate picking me up in a mo for dinner, so see you all later.

The corrupt level is not exactly an entry based pledge level..... I'd hardly use that level as a good barometer for what you're "getting".

Yeah, when you're pledging a thousand dollars, that's definitely not the "sweet" spot, nor is it a good judge of what you're getting and the value that it represents, at those numbers the value starts to get skewed.

A better judge would be the Wicked level, since the majority of your backers are at that pledge level. So for 115 dollars you're getting 24 minis, a rulebook, and w/e the stretch goals are getting you (so what a total of 28 minis total?)

Assuming 35 for the rulebook, that's not too bad of a price for the minis...

Mick, have you played the game? I know you kept telling me to try the rules, but have you done it? Could you give a write up of your experiences?

Edit: My math is off, it's still an okay deal imo.

The deal is still pretty solid. I just don't think isn't the $1k level as an example is entirely appropriate :-)

I like the new enlighted HH, just wished they were wires connecting the mechanical and biological parts together

@Cincydooly,
I really do feel that $1,000 is a nice entry level, why? Because I'm a lunatic for these types of things. LOL
I will also fail at every attempt to understand anything different, lol. I may try and get a photo up of my "To Do" list (about £8000 of unpainted/un built models!) lol.
I have these, as I plan to become a miniature painting artist (So I can work from home due to injury).
At first I didn't like the idea of parting with my plastic, now I want to get rid so I can get WWX >< doh!!

Not got to play WWX yet, so only read the rules tbh. I have problems getting about so gaming is limited due to feeling drunk on meds :(
I have read the rule set and watched the videos, but as it is still being altered in the Charlie to Beta stage,
I am not really worried about not getting chance just yet. But I do hope that a few people from Maelstrom games, now eye of the storm, get into it.

 Madmick wrote:
@Cincydooly,
I really do feel that $1,000 is a nice entry level, why? Because I'm a lunatic for these types of things. LOL
I will also fail at every attempt to understand anything different, lol. I may try and get a photo up of my "To Do" list (about £8000 of unpainted/un built models!) lol.
I have these, as I plan to become a miniature painting artist (So I can work from home due to injury).
At first I didn't like the idea of parting with my plastic, now I want to get rid so I can get WWX >< doh!!

Not got to play WWX yet, so only read the rules tbh. I have problems getting about so gaming is limited due to feeling drunk on meds :(
I have read the rule set and watched the videos, but as it is still being altered in the Charlie to Beta stage,
I am not really worried about not getting chance just yet. But I do hope that a few people from Maelstrom games, now eye of the storm, get into it.

Entry level appeals to the lowest common denominator... Not everyone can afford to drop 1000 dollars on a game they've never played.

But let me get this straight...

You've dropped at least 1000 dollars for a game that
1) You've never played
2) You probably won't play

Also the things that happen in the "charlie" rule phase and the beta usually don't change, at least the overall mechanics...

Some folks love models. Give one example of a succussful minis game where people didn't pledge over a grand on kickstarter? You won't find a kickstarter with that being the case. Mike is hardly a unique case. Sure, wicked is probably a more reasonable level, and about a third of the backers are currently on that level. To each their own on that one. And it's those few Mikes who unlock a few extras goals for the masses.

Im not a fan of the enlightened new or old in particular. I hope there are still some bi-pedal enlightened as well. Wave 2 should unlock shortly so that will give a variety of options if that's the case.

Im shocked people are still acting like lawmen don't have a chance. If you are waiting for them, you may want to put a reminder up for the game, as they are certainly very much obtainable. Most miniature kickstarters double the last week or so.

Earth Dragon wrote:
Some folks love models. Give one example of a succussful minis game where people didn't pledge over a grand on kickstarter? You won't find a kickstarter with that being the case. Mike is hardly a unique case. Sure, wicked is probably a more reasonable level, and about a third of the backers are currently on that level. To each their own on that one. And it's those few Mikes who unlock a few extras goals for the masses.

Im not a fan of the enlightened new or old in particular. I hope there are still some bi-pedal enlightened as well. Wave 2 should unlock shortly so that will give a variety of options if that's the case.

Im shocked people are still acting like lawmen don't have a chance. If you are waiting for them, you may want to put a reminder up for the game, as they are certainly very much obtainable. Most miniature kickstarters double the last week or so.

I love models just as much as anyone, but if Madmick has some spare cash lying around, hows about he throws some of it my way? I highly doubt you all are going to get the lawmen unlocked. You would have to have 142,000 dollars in 6 days... That's just under 24 thousand dollars a day. That means you have to fund this project 7 times over to make the Lawmen... A snowball has a better chance in hell...

Earth Dragon wrote:
Some folks love models. Give one example of a succussful minis game where people didn't pledge over a grand on kickstarter? You won't find a kickstarter with that being the case. Mike is hardly a unique case. Sure, wicked is probably a more reasonable level, and about a third of the backers are currently on that level. To each their own on that one. And it's those few Mikes who unlock a few extras goals for the masses.

Well that's not really true. The % of money is pretty evenly split between the pledge levels. And you're certainly more
Likely to find 5 willing buddies to drop $200 on an untested game system than 1 willing to drop $1K.

The fact remains, and the numbers substantiate, that using the $1K pledge as an exemplar isn't appropriate. I mention it because he included "freebies" that we're added to his level and not the "sweet spot" level. That's all.

An interesting tid bit. Outlaw just posted this is a skirmish game first and an army game second. So that is usually telling of where the main focus is on balance when fine tuning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes. I agree with you Cincy that it should be personal information for the most part. Bad form to wave it around.

Though it is not unusual to pledge high and those individuals really do push the projects past goals leading up to the end rush.

Also, I think $375K is attainable. Relic Knights and Sedktion wars did $225k and $200k respectively in their last day, and even a smaller project like Rivet Wars did over $100k in the last day.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
Some folks love models. Give one example of a succussful minis game where people didn't pledge over a grand on kickstarter? You won't find a kickstarter with that being the case. Mike is hardly a unique case. Sure, wicked is probably a more reasonable level, and about a third of the backers are currently on that level. To each their own on that one. And it's those few Mikes who unlock a few extras goals for the masses.

Im not a fan of the enlightened new or old in particular. I hope there are still some bi-pedal enlightened as well. Wave 2 should unlock shortly so that will give a variety of options if that's the case.

Im shocked people are still acting like lawmen don't have a chance. If you are waiting for them, you may want to put a reminder up for the game, as they are certainly very much obtainable. Most miniature kickstarters double the last week or so.

I love models just as much as anyone, but if Madmick has some spare cash lying around, hows about he throws some of it my way? I highly doubt you all are going to get the lawmen unlocked. You would have to have 142,000 dollars in 6 days... That's just under 24 thousand dollars a day. That means you have to fund this project 7 times over to make the Lawmen... A snowball has a better chance in hell...

If you haven't witnessed the $300k last days of some of these projects, doubling the amount of backers, I could see how you'd think that. Point is it HAS happened, and Texas did freeze over a few years ago.

@Alfndrate,
Hi, You are correct in your reasoning that I bought the early bird corrupted level prior to playing. I am more of a painter than a gamer.
I am unable to game at present as I am suffering from a lot of the side effects of my medication,
but I hope that doctors are able to find a better mix of drugs in order for me to improve.
I was initially on ibuprofen but after a while I started to get ulcerations in my mouth, so had to switch tablets, to an opioid which does not agree with me (makes me feel drunk).
So this is why I am pledging what I am. The Corrupt level allows me to get one of everything at present, which then allows me to start each army off at a small scale.
Then when I feel that I have found an army I like, I can focus on that one and go from there.
It is pretty much the reason why I have all the Infinity armies also, hehe.
All of my 40k stuff shall be getting sold, as I have grown a bit tired of having to relearn the £45 rulebook every few years and same with the codex.

I think I have a better chance of playing smaller games, as I do not have to transport as many models to Maelstrom and less models to paint for me and more for sale.

I would love the Lawmen to unlock if I am honest. However, I have funded my max possible in order for this KS'er to progress as much as I can.
Having been in the military sort of drums team work into you I goes, hehe. And if we don't get Lawmen, well, I did everything I could to get us there.
I just need to trust in the other backers to do the same. Will they all pull their weight? I probably doubt it, some people want the moon on a stick, hehe, but I will trust them never the less.

mick

It has also been confirmed that what you see is what you get, so Warrior Nation having different ranged weapons on the models will offer them different loadouts in actual game rules. Very glad on that, and may purchase an extra HH box or two to have a good amount of options for certain factions.

"Pull their weight?" Well that's a little offensive.

FYI....having £8K in in painted minis doesn't make you a painter. It makes you a hoarder. You may want to use your veteran care to go talk to someone about that.

Earth Dragon wrote:An interesting tid bit. Outlaw just posted this is a skirmish game first and an army game second. So that is usually telling of where the main focus is on balance when fine tuning.
Though it is not unusual to pledge high and those individuals really do push the projects past goals leading up to the end rush.

Except that by the very definition of the word unusual, having people use the 1k mark as the "standard" is unusual. If it were the norm, there would be more backers in the Corrupt level than any other. it would contain a significant amount of backers. Looking at the total number of backers (784) as of the writing of this post, there are less than 10% of all backers have pledged at the Corrupt Level or higher. Yes there are always people that have cash to throw at these things, perhaps mick is one of the rare people that have backed at a high price, and are vocal about it. Usually people don't like to toss around the idea that they're throwing cash around like that. To put it in perspective. I have a solid job and I survive... if I had a thousand dollars to blow, I'd be able to make a single month's student loan payments. Mick, god bless him and his deep pockets, has the cashflow to pledge and not really think anything of it.

cincydooley wrote:Also, I think $375K is attainable. Relic Knights and Sedktion wars did $225k and $200k respectively in their last day, and even a smaller project like Rivet Wars did over $100k in the last day.

I don't think so, both of those games came from a company/person that is decently well known in the community (Sodapop with Super Dungeon Explore), and Sedition Wars with models sculpted by Studio McVey, both of those games were published by CoolMiniorNot, the same goes with Rivet Wars. While on the other hand, Outlaw Miniatures is a relative unknown in the gaming community that has the backing of (and is possibly owned by) Romeo Filip and Battlefoam, and is getting rules editing and production by the River Horse team (who consists of Rick Priestly, Andy Chambers, and Alessio Cavatore, among others). I'll grant Outlaw Miniatures that they certainly have the right people for the right job for this, but unless they get a massive influx of people on the final day, I don't see this game reaching 375k, it would have to have a massive influx of people pledging.

Earth Dragon wrote:Some folks love models. Give one example of a succussful minis game where people didn't pledge over a grand on kickstarter? You won't find a kickstarter with that being the case. Mike is hardly a unique case. Sure, wicked is probably a more reasonable level, and about a third of the backers are currently on that level. To each their own on that one. And it's those few Mikes who unlock a few extras goals for the masses.

Define successful minis game? Technically I can pull Reaper minis, Kingdom Death, Rivet Wars, any other board game, any role playing game. I mean technically I could count the Brushfire: Scyzantium and Beyond kickstarter as successful, it was a KS to fund the sculpts for new models for an existing game. There were not pledges of 1k or more, but that's cherry picking. And of course Mick isn't a unique case, there are 49 other people that pledged around 1k or more with him . Actually it's not really those like Mick, it's having a deal that entices large numbers of people to get in on it. Look at the Reaper Bones Kickstarter. The sweet spot was 100 dollars. Most people could afford it, and most people got more than their money back.

If you haven't witnessed the $300k last days of some of these projects, doubling the amount of backers, I could see how you'd think that. Point is it HAS happened, and Texas did freeze over a few years ago.

First off, you're going to have to answer to Frazzled for calling Texas hell, and secondly, I'm not saying it hasn't happened, I'm saying that it's not likely with this KS.

Madmick wrote:@Alfndrate,
Hi, You are correct in your reasoning that I bought the early bird corrupted level prior to playing. I am more of a painter than a gamer.
I am unable to game at present as I am suffering from a lot of the side effects of my medication,
but I hope that doctors are able to find a better mix of drugs in order for me to improve.
I was initially on ibuprofen but after a while I started to get ulcerations in my mouth, so had to switch tablets, to an opioid which does not agree with me (makes me feel drunk).
So this is why I am pledging what I am. The Corrupt level allows me to get one of everything at present, which then allows me to start each army off at a small scale.
Then when I feel that I have found an army I like, I can focus on that one and go from there.
It is pretty much the reason why I have all the Infinity armies also, hehe.
All of my 40k stuff shall be getting sold, as I have grown a bit tired of having to relearn the £45 rulebook every few years and same with the codex.

I think I have a better chance of playing smaller games, as I do not have to transport as many models to Maelstrom and less models to paint for me and more for sale.

I would love the Lawmen to unlock if I am honest. However, I have funded my max possible in order for this KS'er to progress as much as I can.
Having been in the military sort of drums team work into you I goes, hehe. And if we don't get Lawmen, well, I did everything I could to get us there.
I just need to trust in the other backers to do the same. Will they all pull their weight? I probably doubt it, some people want the moon on a stick, hehe, but I will trust them never the less.

mick

Why do you care if people "pull their weight"? People are going to pledge what they want to pledge, that's the idea behind a kickstarter. Is to get people to invest in your idea if they think it's worth it. If you have someone coming in here and saying, "I like the lawmen, but I don't think we're going to get to them, I'm out." Then so be it, the KS lost it's value to that backer, it's not about the backers pulling their weight, it's about the project having enough perceived value for each individual customer to stand on it's own.

Also, I like how you said you can start off small, when you're literally getting more than you'll probably ever need

Honestly, this thread has gone over the line way to many times. Quit talking back and forth amongst yourselves. There are PM functions and plenty of other forums to snipe at each other.

I'm not a mod, but I sure as hell can speak up. If you are not talking about the KICKSTARTER, quit talking.


To me, I like the look of the models. Its not my favorite era so that's a bit of a turnoff. And I don't know much about the people behind it, but CMON's Relic Knights have yet to show me much progress (and especially progress that I like) and they are a fairly reputable company with a lot of available cash after their Kickstarter.

I'm watching, and I think it has a good shot at the Lawmen.

HI guys, I am back.
What I meant by "pull you weight" is that you see a few people complaining it's not fair and trying to play mind games to get more. Despite 5 days remaining.
Of course we all what is best for us and I am not trying to say pledge more than you can afford.
What I am saying is if you are interested in supporting this project get behind it and stop messing about.
If it caused offence for using that term I apologise, just a figure of speech I guess.

As for being a border for having what I do. I was on different medication when I bought them, so all intention was made to start my business after my college courses.
At least I will not have any shortage of stock when I get back on my feet! LOL

Might try and start my desert board next week though, after all this excitement

All of the 2nd wave of Enlightened HH have now been resulted

 drazz wrote:
Honestly, this thread has gone over the line way to many times. Quit talking back and forth amongst yourselves. There are PM functions and plenty of other forums to snipe at each other.

I'm not a mod, but I sure as hell can speak up. If you are not talking about the KICKSTARTER, quit talking.


To me, I like the look of the models. Its not my favorite era so that's a bit of a turnoff. And I don't know much about the people behind it, but CMON's Relic Knights have yet to show me much progress (and especially progress that I like) and they are a fairly reputable company with a lot of available cash after their Kickstarter.

I'm watching, and I think it has a good shot at the Lawmen.

Wha are you talking about? Up until mid-feb Soda Pop was supplying updates on digital sculpts weekly and less than a month ago they supplied is with a giant update regarding the present status, which is that the some 100 funded models were in china being tooled and castes right now. To say they haven't shown any progress is pretty false.

If you're going to make your happy little soap box stand, at least have your facts straight.

@ earth - in the rulebook it looks like the hored hands will all have two diff weapon options. Have they said there would be more? I tend to avoid the KS forums because rarely Are they productive.

Yes. Outlaw posted if they are holding it, that will be available. So the Charlie rules were written for ease, but well see many more options in the end for weapons

I have a question that's been bugging me for awhile,

Why are you all calling them Charlie rules? Has there been a beta rules yet, or even alpha? Or is everyone getting charlie mixed up with alpha?

 Alfndrate wrote:
I have a question that's been bugging me for awhile,

Why are you all calling them Charlie rules? Has there been a beta rules yet, or even alpha? Or is everyone getting charlie mixed up with alpha?

I do think that's what's been happening...

If anyone has them mixed up its Outlaw Games. They're calling them the Charlie rules for some reason.

Yeah, that's the point we were making!

I think the right term would've been "pre-Alpha" or maybe a less cumbersome "early development" ruleset, etc etc?

Lol. You guys are a hoot!!

Anyway, I'm wandering what the Lawmen HH would even look like. Are they gonna be Cyborgs?

Earth Dragon wrote:
Lol. You guys are a hoot!!

Anyway, I'm wandering what the Lawmen HH would even look like. Are they gonna be Cyborgs?

I suspect that the robot deputy is going to be an Underboss, with the Hired Hands just being a regular "posse".

Earth Dragon wrote:
Lol. You guys are a hoot!!

Anyway, I'm wandering what the Lawmen HH would even look like. Are they gonna be Cyborgs?

Do we have any concept art of them?

Not the hired hands, but Wyatt Earp was seen with a techy shield and rifle and one sidekick is a more generic droid character featured on the kickstarter main page.

Has me dying to see more.

Edit: And by generic droid I mean it looks like a sidekick character you can have multiple of.

Earth Dragon wrote:
Not the hired hands, but Wyatt Earp was seen with a techy shield and rifle and one sidekick is a more generic droid charactered featured on the kickstarter main page.

Has me dying to see more.

I'm looking at the KS page on my phone, and I don't see anything labeled wyatt earp, or the sidekick you're speaking of... Since you know what they are, can you post an image in this thread? or point me to a post in this thread that has them?

 Alfndrate wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
Not the hired hands, but Wyatt Earp was seen with a techy shield and rifle and one sidekick is a more generic droid charactered featured on the kickstarter main page.

Has me dying to see more.

I'm looking at the KS page on my phone, and I don't see anything labeled wyatt earp, or the sidekick you're speaking of... Since you know what they are, can you post an image in this thread? or point me to a post in this thread that has them?

Wyatt Earps concept art is shown on the updates page. The generic droid he's talking about is the one shown on the main page on the lawman scroll.

I don't remember other models having shields, why does Wyatt have one?

Because he's the wild west Captain America. Duh

@Alfn

Here you go, you know how I like to post images. hehe

Edit: Oops didnt see them great big pictures ><

Wyatt Earps special rule:
Wyatt Earp and UR-30 Robots will be able to create a shield wall that will give all the models a +2 to their armor.
It will also provide cover and a +2 armor to any models within 2" of the back arch of the models using shield wall.

The lawmen appear to have rules that make them kings of the showdown. Their best 6 will match up better then anyone elses best 6. So I expect higher then average point cost across the board, and an emphasis on defense/protection.

This is what has me really interested in theme above the fact lawmen are just plain cool.

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfn

Here you go, you know how I like to post images. hehe

Edit: Oops didnt see them great big pictures ><

Wyatt Earps special rule:
Wyatt Earp and UR-30 Robots will be able to create a shield wall that will give all the models a +2 to their armor.
It will also provide cover and a +2 armor to any models within 2" of the back arch of the models using shield wall.

So the "toughest and deadliest gunman of his day" is hiding behind a shield?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Earth Dragon wrote:
The lawmen appear to have rules that make them kings of the showdown. Their best 6 will match up better then anyone elses best 6. So I expect higher then average point cost across the board, and an emphasis on defense/protection.

This is what has me really interested in theme above the fact lawmen are just plain cool.

I'm not really all that impressed with the lawmen, the deputy just seems like a robot with pistols.. , and we've all seen enough sci-fi films to know how Robots with rules protocols tend to turn out >_>

Do the underbosses have shields too? Or does he have a shield because the other lawmen are metal?

@Alfn,
I think he has a shield due to his hi IQ level and bullet proof vests were not invented then.

History is always written by the victors, as they say, so if hiding behind a shield allowed you to be the last man standing.
I would tell everyone that I was the rootenist tootenist in the west.

I am a bit bias on the shield though, as I love them. Was a protection spec warrior in WoW for this fact.
And a holy priest, but I don't want to talk about my dress wearing tendencies, lol

Have to say that the robo cop looks pretty sweet to me. I love painting metal all aged.
So, having robots in the desert could be a nice chance for some really rustic looking droids

There has been very little talk about the rules, so I wanted to give a review of what I've digested and have tested.

OVERALL
Overall this looks to be a beer & pretzels, dice-rolling skirmish game. The core mechanics don't allow it to scale well, and has a high degree of randomization, giving it less room for tactical depth. Thematically it injects flavor through the language of the game, but not so much the mechanics.

ALPHA RULES
People are going to jump all over this saying, "how can you tell, this is just the Alpha rules?" (sorry "Charlie" is dumb and incorrect in its usage). The thing is, these elements need to be in the core mechanics of the game, which is what's being presented, otherwise the game becomes a series of amendments or the core has to be redone.

BASIC MECHANICS
The basic mechanics will be easy for most to grasp, especially if they've had experience with Warmachine or 40k. Right now it highly favors long-ranged shooting (sorry melee-oriented Warrior Nations posses, you're hosed for now). It also highly favors anything that gives you extra action points for extra shots. I'm not as concerned about these, since I feel they can still be fixed. What concerns me the most is the armor/damage mechanic. Armor saves are highly random, which really sucks out tactical decisions. A peon (even without armor) can very easily survive most of the shots that hit it. At the same time a boss can very easily die to a small volley. The dice heavily dictate the battle.

SCALABILITY
Despite claims, the game doesn't scale well. The main reason for this is the life mechanic. Every peon has life points. So if you have 50 guys, you need to track the life of all of them, and make sure you keep all of it straight. It quickly becomes a spreadsheet managing game.

THEME
This is the biggest one for me. Throughout the book they do a good job with injecting theme using language. But I feel they really missed a great opportunity in making an interesting game, because the setting has a lot of flavor. Thematic elements need to really be integrated into the core rules, but instead it's just another shooter-puncher. There is an attempt at this, by giving models special rules, but all they really do is give you bonuses to shooting, punching, moving. Gameplay doesn't speak "wild west" to me.

WHY ARE RULES IMPORTANT?
Sure, the miniatures by themselves are cool, but without a good and interesting rule system I don't see much for sustained growth. I've found myself wanting to jump in on the kickstarter full-bore at first, to pairing down to a couple of factions, to now just wanting to get the few models that I think are really cool for display.

carboncopy wrote:
There has been very little talk about the rules, so I wanted to give a review of what I've digested and have tested.

*snip*

WHY ARE RULES IMPORTANT?
Sure, the miniatures by themselves are cool, but without a good and interesting rule system I don't see much for sustained growth. I've found myself wanting to jump in on the kickstarter full-bore at first, to pairing down to a couple of factions, to now just wanting to get the few models that I think are really cool for display.

Thank you, this is something that I've been looking for since I entered this thread. Hearing how the rules pan out doesn't sit well with me. My time is valuable enough as it is, and I don't want to play a game that is going to be overly complex without being too much fun.

@Alfndrate

The rules are actually fairly simple. When you scale up, they still don't become complex. At that point the issue is tediousness.

I think it's fun for just rolling some dice and shooting the breeze. If you are looking for tactical depth though, it'll probably be disappointing.

The rules are called Charlie rules because at the end of the KS, they will present the community with the PDF Beta rule set.

@Carbon, did you play with your troops in units in bigger games?
Just curious as I am sure I saw somewhere that the damage would be slightly different in unit bast games (large battles).
I think it was to the tune of removing a guy every time there is enough damage to the unit to kill 1 bloke.
Not 100% on this, but it was something along those lines.

Dice are going to play a large part in this game I can tell. Is it a huge issue? not really sure tbh.
Look at 40K and the droves of people who throw buckets of dice each turn.
I do think that it does have elements of WM/H, GW and infinity and I will look forward to my first game when I get chance.

We also are not sure about HSV's yet, so perhaps transports and other units may come out?

I would think when you suggest a shooting game, you play with a board set-up like Infinity with a decent amount of terrain,
as this will be the key to the enjoyment imho. Especially as there is a lot of terrain on this KS from OM and MAS.

 Madmick wrote:
The rules are called Charlie rules because at the end of the KS, they will present the community with the PDF Beta rule set.

>_< Except that pre-beta rules are Alpha rules, because they're the first rules... That's why I was confused and questioning it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

carboncopy wrote:
@Alfndrate

The rules are actually fairly simple. When you scale up, they still don't become complex. At that point the issue is tediousness.

I think it's fun for just rolling some dice and shooting the breeze. If you are looking for tactical depth though, it'll probably be disappointing.

If I have to look up charts and have random effects, it's entering the realm of too complex.

@Alfn,
Sorry my bad then. I thought the rules prior to coming out were the Alpha rules. ><

I am not sure how much involvement Alessio has had yet in these rules, but I know he will have at least 2 sitting on them, as he is mentioned as having a look at them already IIRC.

 Alfndrate wrote:

carboncopy wrote:
There has been very little talk about the rules, so I wanted to give a review of what I've digested and have tested.

*snip*

WHY ARE RULES IMPORTANT?
Sure, the miniatures by themselves are cool, but without a good and interesting rule system I don't see much for sustained growth. I've found myself wanting to jump in on the kickstarter full-bore at first, to pairing down to a couple of factions, to now just wanting to get the few models that I think are really cool for display.

Thank you, this is something that I've been looking for since I entered this thread. Hearing how the rules pan out doesn't sit well with me. My time is valuable enough as it is, and I don't want to play a game that is going to be overly complex without being too much fun.

The problem I have with your comments is you have yet to say ANYTHING positive, yet you feign interest. You've put a negative spin on any post. Are you actually interested in the game? Your posts would say any but being interested.

We dont all have to be Mike. I'm not a fan of every last portion, I'm just questing your motives of why you bother being apart of the discussion when nothing you say gives evidence that you are a potential consumer. You ensure everything negative is highlighted and every positive is countered.

What is some of the stuff you like?

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfn,
Sorry my bad then. I thought the rules prior to coming out were the Alpha rules. ><

I am not sure how much involvement Alessio has had yet in these rules, but I know he will have at least 2 sitting on them, as he is mentioned as having a look at them already IIRC.

River Horses's website says that the RH team is editing and producing the rules, but I'm sure in the end they're nothing more than paid consultation that Outlaw Miniatures paid for. So in the end, it's OM's call...

 Madmick wrote:
The rules are called Charlie rules because at the end of the KS, they will present the community with the PDF Beta rule set.

I think they miss-named it Charlie because of "Alpha Bravo Charlie", but not only is it referencing the wrong thing, but the wrong direction.

 Madmick wrote:

@Carbon, did you play with your troops in units in bigger games?
Just curious as I am sure I saw somewhere that the damage would be slightly different in unit bast games (large battles).
I think it was to the tune of removing a guy every time there is enough damage to the unit to kill 1 bloke.
Not 100% on this, but it was something along those lines.

Nope, those rules aren't in there. I can foresee them adding that, but it adds a host of other issues which need more rule amendments, such as who takes the hit, who can take the hit, mixed weapons/armor units, etc.

 Madmick wrote:

I would think when you suggest a shooting game, you play with a board set-up like Infinity with a decent amount of terrain,
as this will be the key to the enjoyment imho. Especially as there is a lot of terrain on this KS from OM and MAS.

Sure terrain helps, but then your melee-centric army relies on it. The "On the lookout" rule heavily negates terrain and kind of breaks thing, much like the old overwatch rule used to in 40k. It's fixable though.

Changing the game completely to scale it up sounds like an awful idea. They game should either be designed to scale well, or not. Neither is a bad thing. Just pick.

I'm also surprised there are no character cards for this game. Anytime you have to keep track of multiple wound tracks, I think it helps. Malifaux, WM/H, Relic Knights, HellDorado....all games where each model has multiple wounds. All have stat cards where you can track them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think comparing WWX to Inifity is the wrong thing to do. WWX isn't trying to be like Infinity, and thats okay. But in terms of tactical options, it really isn't even close, and again, that's not a bad thing.

 cincydooley wrote:
Changing the game completely to scale it up sounds like an awful idea. They game should either be designed to scale well, or not. Neither is a bad thing. Just pick.

I'm also surprised there are no character cards for this game. Anytime you have to keep track of multiple wound tracks, I think it helps. Malifaux, WM/H, Relic Knights, HellDorado....all games where each model has multiple wounds. All have stat cards where you can track them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think comparing WWX to Inifity is the wrong thing to do. WWX isn't trying to be like Infinity, and thats okay. But in terms of tactical options, it really isn't even close, and again, that's not a bad thing.

The various Pledge level images that they mention that you get x number of stat cards.

Agreed, when you try to straddle the fence and do both, you end up with a mediocre game.

They should stick to a skirmish level and go full-bore with it. It's more thematic and flavorful, and that's what the settings strong points are.

I'm sure though it's a marketing decision. You don't push as many models with a skirmish level game, and it's hard for people to jump into army-level games because of the investment. Warmachine is running into that issue currently. They're trying to scale upward, but the game isn't as fun at that level, and so a majority of players play smaller games.

@Carbon,
I think those extra rules will be added during Beta in order for people to test run them also. I am hoping so anyway.

@Cincydooly,
When making bigger games, I think that it will be pretty similar, just with a small unit rather than 1x bloke.

There are Character cards for the game, just not released as of yet. Really looking forward to them though.
hey come with the mini's. Not sure if a card deck will be released for each faction, or total game.
I would also like to see a starter game set up after the launch in Aug/Sept.

I was comparing it to infinity in such a way as to associate some of the abilities, like taking extra cover or going prone.
Of course Infinity is a huge beast of independent actions and I am not sure any game could completely pass as being so involved tbh.
But with a mix of easy rules and simple actions, I think it could have a very good pace to it with thinking involved also.
Especially as you take it in turns to move 1-3 different troops in a single turn. Then the other person does the same. until all units have been activated.

EDIT: I am mainly interested in the skirmish level also. so much more flavour, but I will try and see it from all angles, as I will perhaps have a big army also. We will see

The podcast said there were character cards for every guy in the box Cincy that you could mark for damage. Unless I'm crossing gaming slang terms because of my hiatus.

I've only play tested 350 pt games, and with the bare bones option. One thing I can say is that teams do seem to be well built to compliment each other. Some of the warrior nation guys can shoot through cover with their bows, so while they favor melee, you'll be hard press to just hunker down and gun down the approaching hoard. They still be able to get you with their ranged guys while the others move to flank.

Scaling just seems it will be wads of HH and vehicles as opposed to singular, so I have one major thought....blood bowl. In Blood Bowl, certain teams do well early but loose their luster as other teams get more skills. Other teams have great stats but lack of skills early, so they perform better late. Other teams just have pricey rosters that dont come together until you can afford their beef after a few games.

What's my point? I woulnt be surprised to see certain factions perform better or worse depending on the scale. Outlaw said it was a "skirmish first" game, so that's where the balance focus will be, but I could see at least a faction or two lagging behind at all the different point levels. They could prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

If they're marketing the game at both Skirmish and army sized levels, they should make sure that it's balanced and streamlined at both levels.

Here's my $1250 list (it would probably cost that much in real money too ). See if you can beat it:

Dr. Carpathian (145)
x55 Animated Gunman (1100)
----------------
$1245

 Alfndrate wrote:
If they're marketing the game at both Skirmish and army sized levels, they should make sure that it's balanced and streamlined at both levels.

Agreed. Yet I've yet to play a game with significant differences between factions (and this is actual differences not just weapon and pallet swaps but troops still operate the same) where it's 100%, and when scale is involved, normally every group has small holes. And if you plug them, they become unbalanced in other areas.

It always humors me to, whether video game or tabletop game, that the guys playing overpowered teams will always claim it's balanced and then gripe when teams are adjusted to compete as if it is now not balanced. Ah, the coming glories of a game in it's infancy.

Earth Dragon wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
If they're marketing the game at both Skirmish and army sized levels, they should make sure that it's balanced and streamlined at both levels.

Agreed. Yet I've yet to play a game with significant differences between factions (and this is actual differences not just weapon and pallet swaps but troops still operate the same) where it's 100%, and when scale is involved, normally every group has small holes. And if you plug them, they become unbalanced in other areas.

It always humors me to, whether video game or tabletop game, that the guys playing overpowered teams will always claim it's balanced and then gripe when teams are adjusted to compete as if it is now not balanced. Ah, the coming glories of a game in it's infancy.

Okay, but you've said you've never played a game beyond the skirmish level right? So how can you be sure that the differences you're not seeing won't show up in higher dollar games?

I'm saying they probably will have some issues and here's why I think that. Unless they give all the LSVs and HSVs the same stats, which they shouldn't IMO, you're going to have those "holes" for every team. The sweet spots where teams are easily able to fit in this or that, but another team won't be able to justify something else they'd really need to counter.

If you know who your opponent is, USUALLY you can plan ahead, and this game looks like it's priced reasonably enough to afford options at even higher levels after it hits market for $200 or so. So playing a series with buddies should afford decent competition. And I do feel the army lists are shaping up to afford those options. Yet in a tournament where you may be stuck playing whoever and you have a set force, I can see issues inevitably there.

So without playing some large scale games, which I'm holding off until the HH lists are more fleshed out, I feel they actually will have to work through some problems. But we will see. I'm at least happy with small scale for now.

 Madmick wrote:

@Cincydooly,
When making bigger games, I think that it will be pretty similar, just with a small unit rather than 1x bloke.

So...what is the point then? Simply to have more models on the board? That seems silly to me.

There are Character cards for the game, just not released as of yet. Really looking forward to them though.
hey come with the mini's. Not sure if a card deck will be released for each faction, or total game.
I would also like to see a starter game set up after the launch in Aug/Sept.

Okay, cool. I haven't listened to any podcasts, so I must have missed that. That's really good to hear.

I was comparing it to infinity in such a way as to associate some of the abilities, like taking extra cover or going prone.
Of course Infinity is a huge beast of independent actions and I am not sure any game could completely pass as being so involved tbh.
But with a mix of easy rules and simple actions, I think it could have a very good pace to it with thinking involved also.
Especially as you take it in turns to move 1-3 different troops in a single turn. Then the other person does the same. until all units have been activated.

EDIT: I am mainly interested in the skirmish level also. so much more flavour, but I will try and see it from all angles, as I will perhaps have a big army also. We will see

Honestly, those "abilities" are more akin to 40k than Infinity. Again, the cover system here is really basic, and isn't even as fleshed out as the one in 40k. Infinity takes actions and abilities up a considerable level.

IMO, it makes sense to keep it at a skirmish level with a lower point level sweet spot? IMO, the lower the sweet spot and people will be more likely to buy multiple factions for varied playstyles. I know picking up a new army, for me at least, is far less daunting in a game like Infinity, or Malifaux, or Freebooter's Fate, than it is for 40k or Fantasy.

I think that the point to make it a scaleable game, is to give people a choice.
Some people prefer having more troops as it feels more epic I guess. I am not in that category though.
Like you, I want a skirmish game and I would strongly agree that Infinity is awesome as it is easy to get into and it has great models
It is also nice that you can add more rules to infinity the more you get used to it. like a smooth transition from
the quick start rules to all the rules.

I am really looking forward to seeing the cards. I am hoping they a bit bigger than WM/H ones though as they always look to busy imho.
Ca't remember the guy on the Infinity forum that made his own Infinity cards, but they looked Awesome!!

Cincy wrote: I know picking up a new army, for me at least, is far less daunting in a game like Infinity, or Malifaux, or Freebooter's Fate, than it is for 40k or Fantasy

Oh man you aren't kidding. I don't see how people can do more then a couple armies in those GW games.

The one thing that may help balance that I didn't think of was Mercs. When you have that "anybody can use these" pool, they immediately close the gap of imbalance whilst letting factions maintain uniqueness. Unless of course they are foolishly overpriced, but that is one of those things that's easily adjustable.

I'd also be curious to see if allies came into play at some point. I know that was a mixed opinion subject amongst many when WHFB did that.

I have no delusions this thing will be perfect from the gate. Just glad to be in from the ground level.

Madmick wrote:I think that the point to make it a scaleable game, is to give people a choice.
Some people prefer having more troops as it feels more epic I guess. I am not in that category though

Except none of us know if it's a scalable game. We are told it could be, but no one seems to have tested the game at those levels. The rules for larger games could suck.

Earth Dragon wrote:The one thing that may help balance that I didn't think of was Mercs. When you have that "anybody can use these" pool, they immediately close the gap of imbalance whilst letting factions maintain uniqueness. Unless of course they are foolishly overpriced, but that is one of those things that's easily adjustable.

So if I want a balanced force at larger points I have to bring in out of faction people? Why can't I have a balanced faction at all levels?

Just glad to be in from the ground level.

That sounds a little pyramid-schemy... >_>

I think we can be pessimistic over anything on kick-starter tbh. Anything COULD suck. If you don't want it to, submit feedback and there will be more of a chance that the game will become something you want it to be.

I don't think you will HAVE to do anything. It's a game in development, what it is now may not be what it will be in a few weeks from now, due to the development stages. Sure, the core of the game will be similar. But I think you may need to try some things out yourself, as people will respond to play testing differently and not test things in the same way you would.

 Madmick wrote:
I think that the point to make it a scaleable game, is to give people a choice.
Some people prefer having more troops as it feels more epic I guess. I am not in that category though.
Like you, I want a skirmish game and I would strongly agree that Infinity is awesome as it is easy to get into and it has great models
It is also nice that you can add more rules to infinity the more you get used to it. like a smooth transition from
the quick start rules to all the rules.

But simply "adding models" doesn't make the game scaleable. There should be a sweet spot that has some range, and the models have to be built based on that, if you want a truly balanced game. There's a reason that WM/H, at above 75ish points, starts to feel a bit cumbersome. It wasn't designed to be played at levels that large, and your book keeping becomes a bit daunting.

I am really looking forward to seeing the cards. I am hoping they a bit bigger than WM/H ones though as they always look to busy imho.
Ca't remember the guy on the Infinity forum that made his own Infinity cards, but they looked Awesome!!

I hope they stick to a standard size so card sleeves are easy to find. I'd be fine with Tarot sized cards because you can pretty easily find sleeves for them.

I hope they don't go the Malifaux route and make them an odd size that ONLY hard sleeves exist for. I've laminated most of my Malifaux cards because the sleeving options weren't that easy. If youre tracking wounds on the card, the cards either need to be laminate to begin with, or they need to be easy to sleeve, IMO.

 Madmick wrote:
I think we can be pessimistic over anything on kick-starter tbh. Anything COULD suck. If you don't want it to, submit feedback and there will be more of a chance that the game will become something you want it to be.

I don't think you will HAVE to do anything. It's a game in development, what it is now may not be what it will be in a few weeks from now, due to the development stages. Sure, the core of the game will be similar. But I think you may need to try some things out yourself, as people will respond to play testing differently and not test things in the same way you would.

You're submitting feedback by pledging money. You're saying, "Hey I like this idea and wish to see it made." There's a DCM that doesn't like the Kingdom Death: Monster Sculpts after the initial renders and art looked awesome. She's trying to unload a chunk of stuff that she doesn't want because she's feeling a little regret at her purchase. How would YOU feel if you spent 1000 dollars as a gamer (I know you're a painter) and the rules sucked? You'd feel a little shafted right?

Edit: Cincy, I laminate all stat cards for the games I play regardless of whether or not they fit into card sleeves saves time and money

Sorry was AFK watching Walking Dead :E

I would agree Alfn, but just because it is new, doesn't mean it is definitely gonna suck.
I think the best people to try the game out is the hard core gamers imho.
If I was testing it out I would probably overlook something. As it is, I am in it for the models first and foremost.

Agree with laminating the cards = Last forever and no card slippage in the sleeves.

I have bought things before that I have regretted, motorbikes, new car cause I was bored and thought it'll be fun.
Really regret them purchases now. However, I don't think I should be fearful of making all my future decisions,
just because I have made errors in the past. I want to enjoy what I have, and sometimes you just have to make a decision
and run with it. Or you'll not make decisions at all, which in my mind is worse.
So I choose to buy looking at the models and knowing they will be made from plastic. Others tell me the rules work well,
some others say there are little discrepancies. I am fine with both of those feedbacks, as it shows errors that have been found and can be therefore rectified
and strengths that should be maintained.

There is no such thing as bad feedback

 Madmick wrote:
Sorry was AFK watching Walking Dead :E

That's fine, tis a noble cause to avoid discussion too

I would agree Alfn, but just because it is new, doesn't mean it is definitely gonna suck.
I think the best people to try the game out is the hard core gamers imho.
If I was testing it out I would probably overlook something. As it is, I am in it for the models first and foremost.

I realize that it's new, thus the kickstarter . Except if you only target the hard core gamer you might get competition ready rules, and every game might seem cut throat. The idea is to find balance. I agree that if you want tight rules you generally want tournament players to test it.

I have bought things before that I have regretted, motorbikes, new car cause I was bored and thought it'll be fun. Really regret them purchases now. However, I don't think I should be fearful of making all my future decisions, just because I have made errors in the past. I want to enjoy what I have, and sometimes you just have to make a decision and run with it. Or you'll not make decisions at all, which in my mind is worse. So I choose to buy looking at the models and knowing they will be made from plastic. Others tell me the rules work well, some others say there are little discrepancies. I am fine with both of those feedbacks, as it shows errors that have been found and can be therefore rectified and strengths that should be maintained.
There is no such thing as bad feedback

Man, I wish I had your disposable income... I've never gone out and bought a new car because I was bored, cars tend to mean car loan payments which means they're not just something I can go out and buy. The same goes with 1000 dollars on plastic man dollies. Have I made impuslive purchases that I regret? Yes I have, but that's because they've been in what I consider reasonable impulse buys. If I don't like them, then I have small amounts of regret. But dropping a grand on a game that 1) I've never played, 2) I'm not sure I will play because 3) I'm mostly in it for the painting (using qualifications that you used) doesn't qualify as an impulse buy. And to say that "others tell me the rules work well"? Someone once told me:

 Madmick wrote:
@Alfndrate,

Whilst I have really enjoyed chatting to you matey, I think there comes a time when you need to seek some answers for yourself.

I don't mind chatting to you about things in general, but I can't copy and paste the internet for you, hehe.

I think it takes more effort for you to ask all the questions than to just click on there site, hehe.

What works for others doesn't always work for you...

How dare you stop warching Walking Dead to come back to Dakka! ;-)

I'm curious to know, and maybe Madmick can tell me, but are the Mercenary sets and Ladies of the West going to be available after the KS?

There are some one-offs I'd like to buy, and maybe incorporate into a game of Through the Breach, but I'm not overly keen on starting a new game and being the only player. My gaming group is fairly conservative/has children.

@Mathieu,
Yes they will be, but I think the ladies will be in different poses to what we have at present. The Mercs will be a constant feature and may be a faction IIRC.

@Alfn,
Didn't say I didn't have a loan at that point of my life, hehe. But I learnt by it and I never go in the red anymore. I had 6 years of not spending so I guess I am making up for it, lol.
Why not look at the rules and try a couple of games?

 Madmick wrote:

Why not look at the rules and try a couple of games?

I should say the same to you, Mr. I'm a painter

And I've looked over the rules, and it just doesn't grab me...

They call stuff by waves, does that mean there is a schedule for a staggered release or is everything getting done before they release?

If it's a schedule, please give us an inkling. (I know these things can get delayed, it's trendy, just what is their best guess at the moment)

They say they have 12 factions planned, some of which may be seen on the KS Home page. Whatever does not get released during this KS, will be getting released in approx 6 month stages.

@Alfn,
Ah ok, sorry I hadn't realised you had done that. I have been looking only also, but it has the opposite reaction to me, hehe

I would have had a few games against myself, but I always catch myself cheating!! lol

And I do hope they'll make a value set of the mercenary crew... 7$ a pop is a bit steep.

$7 steep? :s thats £4.60 in real money, hehe. GW heralds that have just been released are £15 each :s

The merc crew will be in resin?

Updated Enlightened box set has been posted with the newly posed Hired Hands, which I'm thinking look very cool





Wild West Exodus Kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wildwestexodus/wild-west-exodus-sci-fi-western-miniatures-game

Wild West Exodus Forum: http://www.wildwestexodusforum.com/index.php

This is the newest update just in number 73:

I think these guys definitely look a lot better imho. As a lot of people said the old ones looked to static and meh. The should look quite nice with the wave 2 as there seems to be a lot of diversity now.
Still hasn't changed my mind on Warrior Nation though. But I will get all the Enlightened bosses and maybe a starter of these to practice shooting in the face
Just thinking that a afew of their body parts could look like nice scatter terrain? Not sure how many extra bits will be on the sprues though.

@Mahrdol,
Not sure what the mercs will be cast in. We are only allowed to swap wave 1 for wave 2, which says to me that they are stuck together.
Outlaw mentions that there will be a surprise on Monday and it will be a big one! He is not letting on what it is though :(

It's probably some extra foam for your battlefoam bags.

But seriously, if it was a big announcement, why not mention it before the kickstarter ends to generate some extra revenue?

Because they need to reach a set monetary target in order to pull it off.

They are either past or nearly at that target but the sum of $300,000 came up yesterday.

There is going to be an extra mini coming at some point over the next 24 hours added to the pledges from one of the backers. Can’t wait to see it. Hopefully it will be something cool but a free mini is still a free mini

I'm going to call it.

After the KS they will unlock a new faction or two, for instance the Lawmen, despite how much is raised. They don't announce it now because it would take away incentive to reach that goal. Maybe they'll throw in a free Lawmen figure.

It would be a good move because there sounds like there is interest for that faction.

It would be amazing if they did that Carbon. Would really screw up my mind tbh (if it isn't screwed up enough already, lol)

And you are right, the flood gates would open wide up

Hopefully something along these lines as there is a lot of interest in the Lawmen, more than any other faction I would say. I think it would bring more people in as everyone wants to play the Outlaws against the Lawmen.

The thing I love about the Outlaws is the jackets motion and the cowboy hats. In fact they just look so ........ realistic in a gaming model way, if you know what I mean?

I picture the Outlaws with long black jackets and big moustaches. I don't know what they would use for Heavy weapons though. Or even if they should have them. perhaps long barrelled pistols with different types of bullet?

 frank6002 wrote:
Hopefully something along these lines as there is a lot of interest in the Lawmen, more than any other faction I would say. I think it would bring more people in as everyone wants to play the Outlaws against the Lawmen.

Speak for yourself. I want a harlots faction that comes with a brothel as a piece of scenery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Madmick wrote:
?

I picture the Outlaws with long black jackets and big moustaches. ?

You must be a traditionalist.

@Cincy,
I did actually ask for that asa a faction when I first signed up, lol.

See you could have backed me up if you were on board, LOL

 cincydooley wrote:

 frank6002 wrote:
Hopefully something along these lines as there is a lot of interest in the Lawmen, more than any other faction I would say. I think it would bring more people in as everyone wants to play the Outlaws against the Lawmen.

Speak for yourself. I want a harlots faction that comes with a brothel as a piece of scenery.

Amen..... Maybe that's the wrong response.