Backfire wrote: I agree to a point, and Broadside spam is definitely pretty monotonous way to play. I actually believe that Broadsides weren't originally all that popular amongst the players. IIRC 4th edition Tau armies mostly came with triple Railheads. You didn't start to see 9-Broadside armies until well into 5th edition because that was only way to keep up with new supershooty armies like SW and GK. But I digress.
What you are missing is that the "new dynamic" can only work if Tau get something to compensate from loss of HS slots. And the rumours don't really point to that direction. Supposed new suits will compete from same FOC slots which are already overcrowded by existing choices, so they're not going to help. Well, maybe the flyer is really good.
Or maybe Devilfish will get an option for roof-mounted TL Railguns. Lets call them 'Razorfishes'....
I think the over point should be that people can't freak out of rumors since they have no idea what's in the codex. both Necrons and Dark Angels had rumors, but they also had loads of stuff that wasn't remotely listed in the rumors, and those other thing changed the outlook of the "nerfs"/changes they made to other units. You don't see people overly complaining about the price increase on Deathwing models. Or the reduction in the "We'll be back" save.
Wait for the codex. I'd put my army up for bet that is we get S8 broadsides, we'll have at least two other units the hammerheads that can effectively kill landraiders.
Savageconvoy wrote: And I'm not as upset as you think I am. I'm just tired of people like you telling me how my judgement is wrong without contesting why or how I can't make opinions about a unit without playing it. Would you say the same to people who haven't tried Mutilators? We saw the rumors for those, knew it would blow, and guess what, it did. We have rumors telling us how a unit has changed. I'm applying those changes and figuring out how it affects the unit. I'm formulating an opinion on this and other rumors presented. Yet people still insist I can't do this for some reason, that the topic is not up for discussion.
I would like to point out that when the new CSM dex dropped everybody though that the Hellturkey was mediocre at best and should completely ignore the Baleflamer. Then people actually got a chance to play around with it and are like holy feth balls that's a Str 6 AP 3 flame template on a flyer. I'm fairly certain that the same thing happened with the new Dark Angels dex and will happen with the new Demons dex. Just...give the new broadsides a chance ok? And they could not be changed at all and instead be Str10 AP1 with the option to skyfire. And we'd all squee like children or rage like neckbeards if that happens.
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Savageconvoy wrote: Ok. They're the same against that.... How does that change their role other than limiting them?
But they aren't an anti-infantry unit. They're anti-armor. How does being S8 change their role as Anti-armor?
It makes them more equipped to deal with flyers, making Tau one of the only armies able to deal with flyers without taking more flyers. If I'm not mistaken Broadsides are BS 3 with the option to take BS 4, so assuming that the Skyfire is a Suit System option, that makes them BS 3 Twinlinked. So they're hitting on 4s an re-rolling misses. Even if you're hitting the front armor of a flyer, you're hitting, at max, Armor 12. So glancing on 4s and penning on 5s and 6s. So you have a 50-50 chance to hit with a re-roll of failures. Then you're so you have a 50-50 chance of removing a hull point with a 33.3% chance of penetrating. On that penetration you have a solid 50% chance of making it explode. And that's on the front armor. On the rear armor you're talking about a 83.3% chance of a glance or penetration and a 66.6% chance of a penetration, which again has a 50% chance of blowing it right up.
Love how many defenders of S8 railguns there are, even justifying that skyfire on them are the second coming of christ. Tau dont have S9 weapons or ways to bring down armor the same effect (lance weapons of eldar and the necron gun glancing thing). A S8 lance weapon would be better at armor busting than a S8 railgun.
Tau arent glorified AA guns for non tau armies.
So is it justifiable that Tau be good at taking out fliers in exchange for not anymore being good at taking out ground armor?
TheMind wrote: It makes them more equipped to deal with flyers, making Tau one of the only armies able to deal with flyers without taking more flyers.
Except that's not really true. Look at the math a few posts back: the increased BS is mostly offset by the more difficult penetration roll, so the net increase against flyers is fairly small. It's certainly not enough to justify the massive drop in effectiveness against ground targets.
TheMind wrote: It makes them more equipped to deal with flyers, making Tau one of the only armies able to deal with flyers without taking more flyers.
Except that's not really true. Look at the math a few posts back: the increased BS is mostly offset by the more difficult penetration roll, so the net increase against flyers is fairly small. It's certainly not enough to justify the massive drop in effectiveness against ground targets.
The net increase of almost 25% is "small"?
shock_at wrote: Love how many defenders of S8 railguns there are, even justifying that skyfire on them are the second coming of christ. Tau dont have S9 weapons or ways to bring down armor the same effect (lance weapons of eldar and the necron gun glancing thing). A S8 lance weapon would be better at armor busting than a S8 railgun.
Tau arent glorified AA guns for non tau armies.
So is it justifiable that Tau be good at taking out fliers in exchange for not anymore being good at taking out ground armor?
Strawman much? We're saying that people shouldn't overreact before the book is out. We don't know if there'll be other anti-tank options. For all we know, Fire Warriors could get Haywire Grenade Launchers as an option.
Could everyone please calm down and let rumours be rumours. No point getting on your high-horse or doing math. If they change it, they change it, no one is listening to you that will make a difference to that. I like the sound of the variety, personally, and embrace the challenge of adapting. If you don't then keep it to yourselves and don't spam four pages of a forum with your complaints. Can we please get back OT?
Yes, a net increase of 25% is small when it comes at the expense of a massive decrease in their ability to do anything other than kill flyers. Broadsides would be much better off using the current rules than with STR 8 railguns, unless there's a missing bonus to armor penetration that brings them back up to effectively STR 10 (but not instant death against T5).
Strawman much? We're saying that people shouldn't overreact before the book is out. We don't know if there'll be other anti-tank options. For all we know, Fire Warriors could get Haywire Grenade Launchers as an option.
The point is that broadsides are ranged anti-tank, and a core part of most Tau armies (which people have spent a lot of money on). These changes seem like a deliberate nerf to make Tau players buy the new uber-suit to replace their broadsides.
TheMind wrote: It makes them more equipped to deal with flyers, making Tau one of the only armies able to deal with flyers without taking more flyers.
Except that's not really true. Look at the math a few posts back: the increased BS is mostly offset by the more difficult penetration roll, so the net increase against flyers is fairly small. It's certainly not enough to justify the massive drop in effectiveness against ground targets.
The increase against flying Monstrous Creatures (in many respects as serious if not more serious a threat than actual flyers), however, is huge. Besides, Broadsides are still just as effective-- in fact, more effective with Slow and Purposeful base and twin-linked smart missiles-- against many ground targets.
Strength 10 is cool and all, but let's be real. Against most vehicles, strength 8 is perfectly sufficient. Against many infantry, you'll want to shoot Smart Missiles instead. This change primarily means that Broadsides will be significantly worse against T5 multi-wound models with good armor saves (read: Attack Bikes and mounted characters) and against AV 13/14. In exchange they get a big improvement versus flyers, flying Monstrous Creatures, and light units of all types. All in all, that seems easily worth it to me, since Tau have ample sources of AV 13/14 killers even without Broadsides but currently lack game against flyers and flying MCs.
And all of this assumes there aren't other systems that increase Broadsides' power against normal units. To be honest, I expected Broadsides to be hammered with the nerf bat, since they're one of the best units in the game at present, so imagine my surprise when early rumors indicate that they are at worst getting sidegraded!
Can people at least admit that honestly, broadside are so good right now, that they can't really make another anti-tank unit that would compete for the spot.
Maybe that is why the changed them. (as well as to get people to buy something else)
You can't make a balanced list when the choices that already exist are beyond comparison.
Coyote81 wrote: Can people at least admit that honestly, broadside are so good right now, that they can't really make another anti-tank unit that would compete for the spot.
Maybe that is why the changed them. (as well as to get people to buy something else)
You can't make a balanced list when the choices that already exist are beyond comparison.
Broadsides aren't so good that competition is impossible. The problem is that they are the ONLY reliable way for Tau to pop heavy armor because the only other options are single-shot BS4 Hammerheads and single-shot BS3 Fusion Blasters (that need to commit suicide to have a 50% chance of hitting, and need to be within 6" range to do good damage). Broadsides aren't ludicrously good, the alternatives are just that underwhelming. Sure railgun Hammerheads are great for their submunition round and other weapons but the S10 shot is too unreliable and expensive so the Broadside is the only other option. Yes, Broadsides are good, but they aren't so good that GW had to tone them down like these rumors suggest. Assuming the S8 twin-linked thing is true it seems that the change is simply to get people to buy the new big suit.
Of course if the long rumored beam-like rules for the S10 Hammerhead railgun are true then the S8 Broadside makes a LOT more sense. However, we haven't had any update on that in a while so all we have to comment on is the Broadside.
SonicPara wrote: Broadsides aren't so good that competition is impossible. The problem is that they are the ONLY reliable way for Tau to pop heavy armor because the only other options are single-shot BS4 Hammerheads and single-shot BS3 Fusion Blasters (that need to commit suicide to have a 50% chance of hitting, and need to be within 6" range to do good damage). Broadsides aren't ludicrously good, the alternatives are just that underwhelming. Sure railgun Hammerheads are great for their submunition round and other weapons but the S10 shot is too unreliable and expensive so the Broadside is the only other option. Yes, Broadsides are good, but they aren't so good that GW had to tone them down like these rumors suggest. Assuming the S8 twin-linked thing is true it seems that the change is simply to get people to buy the new big suit.
I don't see this as a serious problem. Twin-linked BS3 (or BS4, or twin-linked BS4) fusion blasters are easy to get if it comes to that. With Pathfinder support, Hammerheads can become S10 AP1 BS5 and more or less ignore cover. All in all I think the rumored "new Broadsides" sound great and will bring more differentiation to Tau armies as a whole. Sure, their role is different, but that doesn't mean they're bad. I'll tell you right now that the rumored Broadsides would be a huge game changer for 40k. S8 AP1 Skyfire is simply the best anti-air available outside of Forge World, and when it comes on a resilient and versatile platform, it constitutes a very serious hit to Flyers.
I don't see this as a serious problem. Twin-linked BS3 (or BS4, or twin-linked BS4) fusion blasters are easy to get if it comes to that.
Fusion blasters just don't cut it. Suits are too valuable to waste for unreliable suicide missions, and Piranhas aren't that great in 6e (to put it mildly). Plus, you gotta stop the transports before they get close, if you wait until enemy is next to you before blowing up their transports, you're already hosed.
I don't see this as a serious problem. Twin-linked BS3 (or BS4, or twin-linked BS4) fusion blasters are easy to get if it comes to that.
Fusion blasters just don't cut it. Suits are too valuable to waste for unreliable suicide missions, and Piranhas aren't that great in 6e (to put it mildly). Plus, you gotta stop the transports before they get close, if you wait until enemy is next to you before blowing up their transports, you're already hosed.
Well, let's be real. When we're talking about "transports," what we really mean is "Land Raiders." S8 AP1 deals with normal transports fine-- just ask Sisters how their Exorcists are working out. I for one don't think Broadsides are the only answer to Land Raiders. A simple Devilfish or Piranha going Flat Out right up into a Land Raider's face is practically a counter on its own in many circumstances.
Besides, I'm sure Tau will get heavy anti-tank in other slots.
S8 is badly needed to make the Hammerhead played. (or maybe even use those railgun drones)
And let's be honest, I never understood how that little suit can carry a weapon just as strong as that bigass gun on the Hammerhead.
Also it's not THAT bad, you can still reliably pop rhinos, and that's what you need it for most of the times.
While I will miss my 3 broadsides making my enemy rage on first turn, I think that will be a good change.
(if the rumor is indeed true, which i highly doubt at the moment)
IPS wrote: S8 is badly needed to make the Hammerhead played. (or maybe even use those railgun drones)
And let's be honest, I never understood how that little suit can carry a weapon just as strong as that bigass gun on the Hammerhead.
Also it's not THAT bad, you can still reliably pop rhinos, and that's what you need it for most of the times.
Those are rail rifle drones. In other words S6 and useless against armor.
Second point. I never understood how infantry units can carry a small version of the laser cannon mounted on tanks and dreadnaughts and have the same Strength. Once Devestators and heavy weapon teams get S7 lascannons, then people can say that its not a nerf its a "role shift"
Kingsley wrote: Besides, I'm sure Tau will get heavy anti-tank in other slots.
And this is the key to the entire debate. If your assumption is wrong, what comes next? I was personally hoping to start a Tau army first as allies for my Eldar, eventually building into their own. I'd be using Broadsides to break my reliance on sacrificial Fire Dragons. Squads designed as sacrifice are great when you're facing an AV14 spammer (I have one in my local meta), but terrible when you're facing someone who only brings light armor or tons of MCs (I have them in my local meta). S10 Broadsides are a great TAC addition, but S8 Broadsides are much more specialized and until we see the codex we don't see a counter for the anti-AV14 loss.
If your assumption is right? Well, then some people overreacted, some people were rightly concerned but their concerns were based on lacking information, and some people are rightly upset because their chosen models that they spent time and money on no longer do what they wanted.
IPS wrote: S8 is badly needed to make the Hammerhead played. (or maybe even use those railgun drones)
And let's be honest, I never understood how that little suit can carry a weapon just as strong as that bigass gun on the Hammerhead.
Also it's not THAT bad, you can still reliably pop rhinos, and that's what you need it for most of the times.
Those are rail rifle drones. In other words S6 and useless against armor.
Second point. I never understood how infantry units can carry a small version of the laser cannon mounted on tanks and dreadnaughts and have the same Strength. Once Devestators and heavy weapon teams get S7 lascannons, then people can say that its not a nerf its a "role shift"
It's not a smaller version; it's the same size as sponson-/hull-mounted lascannons. When lascannons are mounted as main weapons they're twin-linked; I don't see Devastators running around with twin-linked lascannons. Your argument, if anything, is actually in favour of S8 Railguns.
Second point. I never understood how infantry units can carry a small version of the laser cannon mounted on tanks and dreadnaughts and have the same Strength. Once Devestators and heavy weapon teams get S7 lascannons, then people can say that its not a nerf its a "role shift"
It's not a smaller version; it's the same size as sponson-/hull-mounted lascannons.
No it's not. Devastator lascannon is only half the size of sponson-mounted lascannon. There are lots of examples of infantry weapons being much smaller than vehicle mounted guns: heavy bolters, burst cannons, Krak missiles etc.
Second point. I never understood how infantry units can carry a small version of the laser cannon mounted on tanks and dreadnaughts and have the same Strength. Once Devestators and heavy weapon teams get S7 lascannons, then people can say that its not a nerf its a "role shift"
It's not a smaller version; it's the same size as sponson-/hull-mounted lascannons.
No it's not. Devastator lascannon is only half the size of sponson-mounted lascannon. There are lots of examples of infantry weapons being much smaller than vehicle mounted guns: heavy bolters, burst cannons, Krak missiles etc.
You really shouldn't say stuff that is blatantly untrue. I'll let the image speak for itself:
Spoiler:
The sponson is slightly larger, which is easily explained by the fact that it's mounted to a vehicle and thus needs to have more electronics inside to allow the gunner to fire from inside the vehicle.
No it's not. Devastator lascannon is only half the size of sponson-mounted lascannon. There are lots of examples of infantry weapons being much smaller than vehicle mounted guns: heavy bolters, burst cannons, Krak missiles etc.
You really shouldn't say stuff that is blatantly untrue.
You really shouldn't say stuff that is so blatantly untrue. I have a Predator lascannon sponson and a Devastator right in my hand, and whaddaya know, Devastator lascannon is half the size. In Heavy bolters there is only small difference.
Regardless, the railgun rails are irrelevant to it's actual power. The power comes from magnetic propulsion and that requires a lot of energy. The Suits have modified generators to handle the capacity for that.
Railgun "barrel" length is a pointless argument on the issue.
Its really nice that broadsides would become awesome AA platforms, but really, how many people actually use flyers? Some armies dont even have flyers (might change with our new codex I guess) outside of FW. I really dont see how a devilfish/piranha will actually stop a LR, thats like saying suits will stop a horde of orcs by throwing them at them. Sure it makes them lose a turn to shove large spiky objects up their rectal cavities, but that's not really my definition of stopping anything :(.
Its true we have to wait and see what the rest of the codex brings, but either way it means we will still have to shell out bags of money to make our armies playable, instead of just fixing stuff that is wrong with our current codex (but as said before, I guess that is not really a realistic thing to expect from GW).
@Savageconvoy
Actually more rail length would enable to you to accelerate a round for a longer period of time, either reducing the energy cost for an equal amount of speed or enabling a more powerful shot with increased energy cost, so that's not exactly true.
MoD_Legion wrote: Its really nice that broadsides would become awesome AA platforms, but really, how many people actually use flyers? Some armies dont even have flyers (might change with our new codex I guess) outside of FW. I really dont see how a devilfish/piranha will actually stop a LR, thats like saying suits will stop a horde of orcs by throwing them at them. Sure it makes them lose a turn to shove large spiky objects up their rectal cavities, but that's not really my definition of stopping anything :(.
Actually, I'd say most people use flyers. Hell, I have flyers for 4 different armies within eyesight of this computer. Flyers are everywhere, I'd say 80% of all armies I see at the gaming shop. I'm also expecting fusion guns to get a longer range than the 12" that they are now. This will go a long way to making those platforms where they come from much more survivable. Also EMP grenades are pretty devastating to a heavy tank as well. Hitting on 3+ (at most) and at the very least removing an HP on 4+. Now what happens if they can be shot at range?
Its true we have to wait and see what the rest of the codex brings, but either way it means we will still have to shell out bags of money to make our armies playable, instead of just fixing stuff that is wrong with our current codex (but as said before, I guess that is not really a realistic thing to expect from GW).
I bolded the important part and GW's response will be "just as planned". And yeah, its this mentality that pisses veteran gamers off about GW, but they have no allegiance to your existing army, only to their stock holders and yeah, its mind blowing how long this philosophy has worked.
MoD_Legion wrote: Actually more rail length would enable to you to accelerate a round for a longer period of time, either reducing the energy cost for an equal amount of speed or enabling a more powerful shot with increased energy cost, so that's not exactly true.
I actually had to look this up and I think that overall a longer barrel would be more detremental. Longer rail length means more energy consumption and more heat disipation required, while only the magnitude of the magnetic field seems to have an affect on the acceleration of the projectile. If anything it looks like honestly the Hammerhead Railgun should be the S8 version since it would create more heat along the rails and require much larger power consumption to maintain the magnitude of the magnetic field.
You need a large barrow on a rail gun as that is where the magnets are in order to accelrate the projectile unlike a normal gun where the propellent is encased inside the shell
but any way yeah seen the new book up for order maybe the tau will be out next month or month after who knows
Lets hope tau get a lot of resculps and new models then on to eldar hopefully
I hope that the Tau get some interesting rules or at least some better models. As of now I only know of one Tau player and his army folds very quickly to others.
bit81 wrote: You need a large barrow on a rail gun as that is where the magnets are in order to accelrate the projectile unlike a normal gun where the propellent is encased inside the shell
but any way yeah seen the new book up for order maybe the tau will be out next month or month after who knows
Lets hope tau get a lot of resculps and new models then on to eldar hopefully
you know rail guns don't use magnets right? i think you might be thinking of a gauss weapon (and not the necron type)
I bolded the important part and GW's response will be "just as planned". And yeah, its this mentality that pisses veteran gamers off about GW, but they have no allegiance to your existing army, only to their stock holders and yeah, its mind blowing how long this philosophy has worked.
They have a legal and ethical obligation to the shareholders. This is not some crazy fringe philosophy you are talking about.
Railguns use electromagnetic force to propel an object. It's similar in principle to a Gauss gun, but just different in construction. So yeah, Railguns use magnets.
And current test railguns for naval use don't appear to be a different size than the ones mounted on Broadside.
I just hope they look nice. Of course, it would be nice if they have good rules, but I will get a lot more enjoyment from building/painting awesome models than from actually playing games with them. A new crisis suit that looks agile and not... er, chunky... would do wonders for the army.
I want my units that I currently have to give me an effective army *cough*Broadsides*cough* and not have to buy another expensive unit *Cough*Riptide*cough* to take up space for another unit I have plenty of *cough*Crisis Suits*cough*
Savageconvoy wrote: I want my units that I currently have to give me an effective army *cough*Broadsides*cough* and not have to buy another expensive unit *Cough*Riptide*cough* to take up space for another unit I have plenty of *cough*Crisis Suits*cough*
Dude...we get it...seriously. GW is not going to keep the Codex static, with just improvements to the current units. They are going to tweak the Codex to fit new units in, and drive sales of what people don't currently have. As I, and several others have stated, GW is loyal only to their shareholders and their bottom line, because they are a business providing a product, and they will do everything they can within their abilites to maximize their profit. If people continue to buy GW products, they will continue to use that same formula. Really, why should GW keep the top tier units of an army the same, and continue to let them be used in the same manner with the same amount of success? What room does that leave for them to make profit to pay their employees and keep their production lines running?
And remember, it's your prerogative to quit, or use the old codex. Otherwise, whatever happens will happen, and you really can't do anything to stop it from happening. If these changes are true, you have your choice to pretty much either adapt or quit. Simple as that, really.
Savageconvoy wrote: I want my units that I currently have to give me an effective army *cough*Broadsides*cough* and not have to buy another expensive unit *Cough*Riptide*cough* to take up space for another unit I have plenty of *cough*Crisis Suits*cough*
Dude...we get it...seriously. GW is not going to keep the Codex static, with just improvements to the current units.
I dunno, that's what they did with Tau last time around...
New Dark Angels codex did not invalidate anything from my Deathwing army. I didn't have to buy single new model to maintain my army's competiveness. (I'm going to, though, because some previous non-choices became competive, so props from that I guess....).
Okay, the issue with the current Tau Codex is that there are few units that are actually Viable,
Firewarriors- good
Kroot - not so much
Crisis suits - good
Stealth suits - situational
Vespid - straight out bad
Piranah - only viable if you take a ton of them
Pathfinders - good for markerlight spam
Gun drone squad - usable to fill out a list at best
Skyray- not bad, just not as good as other options
Hammerhead- good
Broadside - good
Sniper drones- okay, just not as good as other options
So changes to railguns isn't the end all some people seem to think. Heck for all we know Broadsides will be given the "rail cannons" Instead of railguns in the new 'dex.
I love how passionate people are on this subject, but if they do nerf railguns, without giving them alternate rules to compensate its going to be the end all for Tau. I would LOVE to see the Riptide if thats what they call it, thats on the same scale as a CSM Defiler, or Flyers that are balanced against say the DA Nephilim.
I'd rather see a solid and Balanced codex like the others that have been released, then an OP rolfstomp codex like some of those out there.
The thing is, a dedicated anti-air unit without Interceptor or ridiculous toughness is a joke.
Either your opponent doesn't bring flyers, and you've wasted a large number of points on a squad that won't really do anything.
Or your opponent zooms in the flyers from reserve and takes out your anti-air with a single alpha strike.
Flyers are always coming in from reserve, so they ALWAYS get the first shot. And there's nowhere on the board you can place units that a flyer can't reach in their first turn.
RogueRegault wrote: The thing is, a dedicated anti-air unit without Interceptor or ridiculous toughness is a joke.
Either your opponent doesn't bring flyers, and you've wasted a large number of points on a squad that won't really do anything.
Or your opponent zooms in the flyers from reserve and takes out your anti-air with a single alpha strike.
Flyers are always coming in from reserve, so they ALWAYS get the first shot. And there's nowhere on the board you can place units that a flyer can't reach in their first turn.
Or you realize that everything points toward Broadsides being able to fire at ground targets at full BS as well, which means that you have a good anti-tank unit that's also a good anti-air unit.
im confused, people saying a nerf to railgun's is good because it will see Broadsides spammed less.... but Tau spam crisis suits, are they going to be nerfed as well to make people spam stealth suit squads?
Before crying broadside spam people should look at the cause, what with hammerheads being easier to knock out of the sky, and sniper drones being lower strength, easier to kill railgun's. The problem isn't the power level its that the other options are undesirable in almost any situation. Here's an idea, if GW are putting Kroot HQ's back in, why not a Kroot Heavy Support, put the Greater Knarloc in the codex, a mid cost Str7 T5 fleeting monstrous creature/beast to enable to codex to be played in a totally different way, and whilst were on the subject, how about shoving some more viable options into the elite category? and for Gods sake either take out the ethereal's as a combat option or make them do something useful.
I mean seriously all the fluff we have shows that ethereal's rarely make the military decisions and normally defer to the fire caste commanders, why is such a high priority target even on the battlefield?
danp164 wrote: im confused, people saying a nerf to railgun's is good because it will see Broadsides spammed less.... but Tau spam crisis suits, are they going to be nerfed as well to make people spam stealth suit squads?
Before crying broadside spam people should look at the cause, what with hammerheads being easier to knock out of the sky, and sniper drones being lower strength, easier to kill railgun's. The problem isn't the power level its that the other options are undesirable in almost any situation. Here's an idea, if GW are putting Kroot HQ's back in, why not a Kroot Heavy Support, put the Greater Knarloc in the codex, a mid cost Str7 T5 fleeting monstrous creature/beast to enable to codex to be played in a totally different way, and whilst were on the subject, how about shoving some more viable options into the elite category? and for Gods sake either take out the ethereal's as a combat option or make them do something useful.
I mean seriously all the fluff we have shows that ethereal's rarely make the military decisions and normally defer to the fire caste commanders, why is such a high priority target even on the battlefield?
Just my 50 pence worth
well for that matter why our skyrays that fluff wise IS our anti air unit no sky fire. (at least right now) though speaking of which, i wonder if they will give skyrays sky fire, at which point our AA is kinda redundant.
Backfire wrote: New Dark Angels codex did not invalidate anything from my Deathwing army. I didn't have to buy single new model to maintain my army's competiveness. (I'm going to, though, because some previous non-choices became competive, so props from that I guess....).
Same thing went with CSM. Bikes, Oblits, CSM, Plaguemarines, ect. seemed to be just fine now. Deamon Princes would actually get a buff from the Tau update, which they probably had the plan to limit the S10 weapons available. The key part about CSM though is that people weren't forced to buy Heldrakes and the Fiends, they just presented them as nice add ons. That's what I want the Riptide to be. A nice add on, not a necessity. That's probably my biggest concern is that in the trend of balanced codex and plentiful options, is that Tau would be stuck with a monobuild again.
I was wondering about the old rumor about the Tau ally chart modifiers. Maybe we see Railguns getting toned down because Kroot and Vespid wouldn't be taking up the Tau FOC but rather filling a smaller more restricted Ally chart. If that's the case then the possibility of running an all Kroot army wouldn't seem possible.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Or you realize that everything points toward Broadsides being able to fire at ground targets at full BS as well, which means that you have a good anti-tank unit that's also a good anti-air unit.
The problem isn't ballistic skill, the problem is that S8 is mediocre against proper tanks, so much so that other armies even get S8 firepower for free like in every Tactical Squad ever. Yes skyfire is interesting but at 25 points and on a T4 platform without interceptor they will just get obliterated by the flyers when they arrive anyways. If that 25 point upgrade gives skyfire AND interceptor then the new Broadsides would really be a great niche unit but as currently rumored they are simply a much weaker version of their prior selves for no (as of yet disclosed) good reason. Trying to promote versatility in a codex is NOT an excuse for completely undermining the purpose of a unit; that exercise is reserved for poor balance teams and calculated marketing decisions focused on selling everyone knew models.
Desubot wrote: well for that matter why our skyrays that fluff wise IS our anti air unit no sky fire. (at least right now) though speaking of which, i wonder if they will give skyrays sky fire, at which point our AA is kinda redundant.
The current word is that Sky Rays will have a way to be focused on anti-air.
I wonder if the Rail Cannon will be better than S10 AP1. The way it's described makes it seem like it should be even better than it already is, but that the rules only supported so much. Now, 6 years on and two editions later, perhaps we'll see the true rail gun not just maintain its supremacy but actually get better.
RogueRegault wrote: The thing is, a dedicated anti-air unit without Interceptor or ridiculous toughness is a joke.
Either your opponent doesn't bring flyers, and you've wasted a large number of points on a squad that won't really do anything.
Or your opponent zooms in the flyers from reserve and takes out your anti-air with a single alpha strike.
Flyers are always coming in from reserve, so they ALWAYS get the first shot. And there's nowhere on the board you can place units that a flyer can't reach in their first turn.
How is this different from devastators/havocks with missile launchers and skyfire? none of them have interceptor, they need to suck up the flyers first shots as well... (havoks are 175 pts for 4 ML w Skyfire + champion) so not exactly cheap.
I doubt it. I feel like we'll see more Rail Rifles spread around, but I don't think we'll see Rail Cannons on anything other than Hammerheads.
The real issue, IMO, is that Tau have exactly 4 units to deal with AV13/14, only one of which can do so from range. That's really not all that unusual - meltaguns, EMP, and Haywire grenades are the general weapons of choice against AV13/14 anyways, isn't it? Most armies don't rely on long range AT to take out Landraiders, do they? Tau were pretty unique in that regard - and we still have some capability to engage heavy armor at range, using Hammerheads. Is it less reliable than what we have? Sure. Still better than most? Absolutely.
What we really need is more units that can take special weapons, period. Someone else remarked earlier that all our killing gets done in out Elite and HS slots - it's true, and that's another way in which Tau are unique as a codex. My estimation is that we'll see that changing with the new codex. We'll probably see more ways to take a variety of weapons - though probably not S10 railguns - in a variety of new FoC slots, and that will make it less necessary to rely on S10 shots from range.
Yes, this means we will need to adapt a bit from what we currently do. Personally, I like that (especially since my current army has no Broadsides anyway).
ausYenLoWang wrote: How is this different from devastators/havocks with missile launchers and skyfire? none of them have interceptor, they need to suck up the flyers first shots as well...
Devastators/havocs have more bodies to survive the flyer alpha-strike and so while broadsides will outshoot them when both are kitted out with skyfire, devastators/havocs have a better chance of surviving the flyer and returning fire.
Also, if both units forego skyfire completely, the devastators/havocs far outshoot the broadsides against ground targets for less points.
Can you start to see why people who chose to play Tau for their ranged combat mastery are upset both from a gameplay and thematic standpoint?
Veskrashen wrote: Tau were pretty unique in that regard - and we still have some capability to engage heavy armor at range, using Hammerheads. Is it less reliable than what we have? Sure. Still better than most? Absolutely.
I would say that the complete lack of a useful assault phase army-wide as well as the lack of those heavy-hitting close combat weapons that pop heavy armor more than accounts for the Tau having S10 shooting on a Broadside. We trade an entire combat phase for that slight edge in shooting and now, according to the rumors, that is being taken away.
This is not to say that Tau should get close combat help, they shouldn't, but that forfeit of 1/3rd of the game should translate into monstrous ranged weaponry. The rumored update to Broadsides betrays that in the worst way possible and, as the book isn't out, we are left wondering how they will make it up to us. We aren't afraid of change, we are afraid of poor game design and poor balance which we all know GW is very capable of. For now we are left in the dark just hoping that GW was wise enough to compensate for the nerf to the Broadside.
Veskrashen wrote: I doubt it. I feel like we'll see more Rail Rifles spread around, but I don't think we'll see Rail Cannons on anything other than Hammerheads.
The real issue, IMO, is that Tau have exactly 4 units to deal with AV13/14, only one of which can do so from range. That's really not all that unusual - meltaguns, EMP, and Haywire grenades are the general weapons of choice against AV13/14 anyways, isn't it? Most armies don't rely on long range AT to take out Landraiders, do they? Tau were pretty unique in that regard - and we still have some capability to engage heavy armor at range, using Hammerheads. Is it less reliable than what we have? Sure. Still better than most? Absolutely.
What I am personally afraid is that if Broadsides are nerfed, then most players are forced to run triple Railheads to get at least some high-strength, long-range shooting - which is not needed just against Land Raiders or Battlewagons, but also countering such threats as Psyrifleman-spam. Leaving us in same situation where we are in current codex: there is only one viable Heavy support choice, no matter how good other units for that slot are, you have to take what your army is otherwise missing.
People are saying "so what if Broadsides lose S10, just take Railheads!" But for what slots we are then supposed to take Sky Rays, Sniper Drones or whatever new units the book might have?
Backfire wrote: People are saying "so what if Broadsides lose S10, just take Railheads!" But for what slots we are then supposed to take Sky Rays, Sniper Drones or whatever new units the book might have?
Not to mention that Railgun Hammerheads as they function now are MASSIVE gambles when firing the S10 solid shot. Broadsides were so prevalent because they were the only (sort-of) reliable source of heavy anti-tank damage. Railgun Hammerheads are great but mostly for their extra weapons and submunitions.
Of course the new Railcannon on a Hammerhead could change to make it more attractive but there is that chance that they leave it the same and just rename it.
We also may see more anti-tank options that we haven't heard about in the rumours. We have heard next to nothing about crisis suit weaponry for example.
ausYenLoWang wrote: How is this different from devastators/havocks with missile launchers and skyfire? none of them have interceptor, they need to suck up the flyers first shots as well...
Devastators/havocs have more bodies to survive the flyer alpha-strike and so while broadsides will outshoot them when both are kitted out with skyfire, devastators/havocs have a better chance of surviving the flyer and returning fire.
Also, if both units forego skyfire completely, the devastators/havocs far outshoot the broadsides against ground targets for less points.
A 5-man Devastator squad with 4xML has 5 wounds with a 3+ save. 3 man Broadsides have 6 wounds with a 2+ save. The only flyers that Broadsides suffer more casualties from than Devastators, on average, are Vendettas and Doom Scythes - and if you're in cover, you're likely losing the same amount of firepower from each. You're right that MLDevs are cheaper than Broadsides in both configurations - though if Broadsides sans Skyfire are only 60pts each as rumored, and have SMS, they'll put out more firepower than the Devs will. I think you're overstating the case, by quite a bit.
Veskrashen wrote: Tau were pretty unique in that regard - and we still have some capability to engage heavy armor at range, using Hammerheads. Is it less reliable than what we have? Sure. Still better than most? Absolutely.
I would say that the complete lack of a useful assault phase army-wide as well as the lack of those heavy-hitting close combat weapons that pop heavy armor more than accounts for the Tau having S10 shooting on a Broadside. We trade an entire combat phase for that slight edge in shooting and now, according to the rumors, that is being taken away.
This is not to say that Tau should get close combat help, they shouldn't, but that forfeit of 1/3rd of the game should translate into monstrous ranged weaponry. The rumored update to Broadsides betrays that in the worst way possible and, as the book isn't out, we are left wondering how they will make it up to us. We aren't afraid of change, we are afraid of poor game design and poor balance which we all know GW is very capable of. For now we are left in the dark just hoping that GW was wise enough to compensate for the nerf to the Broadside.
I grant that not being able to do jack in the assault phase is something that needs to be compensated for - and I think that we are getting those compensations. Look at the rumored rules allowing more shots if we stand still (that may mean 2 TL shots from each Broadside, which definitely changes things). Look at the fact that we may get better Overwatch - at higher BS, and more units pouring fire into oncoming gribblies. Oh, and the Riptide will be a MC if the rumors are correct - and will therefore be throwing around AP2 hits standard, and will be able to Smash as well. Will it be a CC monster of Doom? Probably not. But I bet it'll be able to open tanks like tin cans in CC regardless.
Backfire wrote: People are saying "so what if Broadsides lose S10, just take Railheads!" But for what slots we are then supposed to take Sky Rays, Sniper Drones or whatever new units the book might have?
Wait, you mean we might have to make choices as to what to bring in our HS slots? Que horror!
Seriously though - there will be awesome new units, we will have to make tradeoffs, that's pretty much a given even if Broadsides didn't get dropped to S8 instead of S10. That will be a very very happy day, IMO - it'll mean we have an actual, real, honest-to-God workable Codex with more than one viable choice in each FoC slot.
Veskrashen wrote: That will be a very very happy day, IMO - it'll mean we have an actual, real, honest-to-God workable Codex with more than one viable choice in each FoC slot.
How do you figure? The way I'm seeing things that isn't really going to change much, most of our HS choices are still going to be garbage, but they're making broadsides garbage now so it means we'll either be taking hammerheads or just saying feth it and sticking with the broadsides regardless of change and hoping for the best.
Broadside nerfs don't suddenly make sniper drones and skyrays stop being worthless.
ausYenLoWang wrote: How is this different from devastators/havocks with missile launchers and skyfire? none of them have interceptor, they need to suck up the flyers first shots as well...
Devastators/havocs have more bodies to survive the flyer alpha-strike and so while broadsides will outshoot them when both are kitted out with skyfire, devastators/havocs have a better chance of surviving the flyer and returning fire.
Also, if both units forego skyfire completely, the devastators/havocs far outshoot the broadsides against ground targets for less points.
Can you start to see why people who chose to play Tau for their ranged combat mastery are upset both from a gameplay and thematic standpoint?
i was talking a base squad of 5 guys, broadsides also have more wounds less bodies but more wounds, but hey if i take 10 havoks i can still plop the template on the ones with the missile launchers and wipe them out on 2's where as the broadsides will only lose a wound... so in the case of baleflamer the broadsides will survive its first hit whereas devs and havoks dont..
Sidstyler wrote: How do you figure? The way I'm seeing things that isn't really going to change much, most of our HS choices are still going to be garbage, but they're making broadsides garbage now so it means we'll either be taking hammerheads or just saying feth it and sticking with the broadsides regardless of change and hoping for the best.
Because I really really doubt we've seen all the changes. So everyone running around like the sky is falling because we're losing S10 on our Broadsides (which gain A.S.S. for free and will be cheaper) are not taking into account that there are likely other changes to compensate for that fact. In other words, we won't NEED S10 Broadsides, because we'll have other options to fill the same role of killing AV13/14. They're probably not going to be EZ Mode point and click from 72" away, but we'll have them.
Broadsides do not function as an alternative to functioning during the assault phase. Jet pack moves and Kroot assault make the phase relevant to tau players.
Railheads are only a gamble against av 14. Properly supported by marker lights they perform beautifully against everything else AND still have a reasonable shot at blowing up a Land Raider. Additionally, the comparatively mobile railhead has a better shot at getting in the side arc. Plus it almost ways has a cover save.
People are entitled to complain about their favorite unit getting the shaft. I understand why some people are upset though I have yet to experience it myself. However, the strategic implications of this change do not threaten the tau as a viable army. Next time maybe don't rely on one unit quite so heavily (especially if also happens to be what in your view is the strongest unit), or upon one tactic or strategy.
The rumor also hinted that Hammerheads lose the multitracker, or more specifically couldn't fire like a fast vehicle anymore. So it's just as mobil as any other tank at this point.
The rumor about the standing still and getting extra shots never bothered to clarify, and I believe will only apply to pulse weapons. Much like how the Dakka Banner only affects bolters. Do you really think they would let all Tau units get extra shots in regardless of weapon type?
Veskrashen wrote: A 5-man Devastator squad with 4xML has 5 wounds with a 3+ save. 3 man Broadsides have 6 wounds with a 2+ save. The only flyers that Broadsides suffer more casualties from than Devastators, on average, are Vendettas and Doom Scythes - and if you're in cover, you're likely losing the same amount of firepower from each. You're right that MLDevs are cheaper than Broadsides in both configurations - though if Broadsides sans Skyfire are only 60pts each as rumored, and have SMS, they'll put out more firepower than the Devs will. I think you're overstating the case, by quite a bit.
Run the test with an equal costed unit of devastators by purchasing extra marines for the unit. The flyer comes on from reserve, blows away a bunch of the extra marines, the heavy weapon ones are free to return fire superior to a broadside unit.
ausYenLoWang wrote: i was talking a base squad of 5 guys, broadsides also have more wounds less bodies but more wounds, but hey if i take 10 havoks i can still plop the template on the ones with the missile launchers and wipe them out on 2's where as the broadsides will only lose a wound... so in the case of baleflamer the broadsides will survive its first hit whereas devs and havoks dont..
A base unit of Broadsides isn't 3 suits so at a base unit the broadsides will have less wounds AND less bodies. Things like the baleflamer are the only instance where a Broadside unit is more resilient than an equal costed unit of devastators against a flyer's alpha-strike. Every other situation, assuming equally competent placement of both units, the devastators outshine the Broadsides. I only see two things that the Broadsides have over devastators and that is range (unless that gets nerfed too) and flexibility when skyfire is brought in to the mix. Other than that the devastators outshoot and outlast the Broadsides; and we aren't even considering the threat of assaulters yet.
erewego86 wrote: People are entitled to complain about their favorite unit getting the shaft. I understand why some people are upset though I have yet to experience it myself. However, the strategic implications of this change do not threaten the tau as a viable army. Next time maybe don't rely on one unit quite so heavily (especially if also happens to be what in your view is the strongest unit), or upon one tactic or strategy.
We aren't saying it makes Tau rubbish, we are saying it makes Broadsides unnecessarily weak. It isn't just shafting a favorite unit, it is shelving expensive models and countless hours of modelling work as well. No one thinks the change to Broadsides dooms the entire army, it is far too early to tell. It is just an unnecessary nerf to one of the signature units of the Tau.
Long story short, new Broadsides appear to be a husk of their former selves and I'm sure some fancy new model kits will at least partially fill the void in some way. This is not reason to be happy unless you have a stacked wallet.
Savageconvoy wrote: The rumor also hinted that Hammerheads lose the multitracker, or more specifically couldn't fire like a fast vehicle anymore. So it's just as mobil as any other tank at this point.
The rumor about the standing still and getting extra shots never bothered to clarify, and I believe will only apply to pulse weapons. Much like how the Dakka Banner only affects bolters. Do you really think they would let all Tau units get extra shots in regardless of weapon type?
My read was that it just specified multitracker - nothing was said about them not being able to fire as fast as a blanket statement, IIRC. I'm reserving judgement on this one, especially since I run mech heavy - if true, that definitely changes things for me. Doesn't make things unworkable, but I will need to shift. Happens.
I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for the Tau Dakka Banner Aura Ability Thingy to apply to all infantry within XXX" or something similar. Especially since this *would* be an excellent way to buff their shooting and compensate for their lack of assault responses. Just like I could see the Overwatch buff being a banner / aura type ability, or need an upgrade for the squad / wargear.
I just remembered something from a long time ago. They mentioned the ability for Tau to overwatch for other friendly squads, which matches up with the rumor now about squads combining overwatch fire and this would help Broadsides that won't be able to overwatch with Slow and Purposeful. If I remember right, the original rumor stated that a friendly unit had to give up it's shooting phase to overwatch for another unit. Which would be pointless. A Squad in charge range would just not charge every turn and leave units waiting to overwatch a threat that never happens.
And I guess I just read too much into the multi-tracker loss, but it makes sense to me that it won't be able to move and shoot anymore. It is a main battle tank afterall. I really want to see Hammerheads becoming cheaper now, and hope they make Burst cannons more effective. I really can't see the Main battle tank with a buffed up lascannon and two toned down heavy bolters.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: That was always going to be the case with a new codex (or even with a new model release between codexes like the dakka jet)
Buy extra units (new or old) or be less competetive than before
they only way to remain unchanged is to have GW ignore you completely and hope the other new codexes don't strike a killer blow on your old one
Not true with many Marine armies. A lot of the Marine books are so great because the fancy new stuff are simply alternatives that better fit certain playstyles, not clear improvements and now outmatched units. Ward's C:SM did it masterfully with the new units adding to the diversity of the book rather than forcing players into spamming a singular new incredible unit in order to lock up victories. As a result, the C:SM book is still played and generally well liked but I doubt GW appreciated the "gameplay and theme first, marketing second" approach as evidenced by most releases since.
SonicPara wrote: Run the test with an equal costed unit of devastators by purchasing extra marines for the unit. The flyer comes on from reserve, blows away a bunch of the extra marines, the heavy weapon ones are free to return fire superior to a broadside unit.
OK, 10 man DADev squad with 4 MLs vs. a 3-man Skyfire Broadside squad? Sure, in that case you have 10 wounds at 3+ vs. 6 wounds at 2+. You still take twice as many casualties on average, since you have twice as many chances to fail your armor save. And again, the only case where you take fewer casualties is the Vendetta - you'll likely take more hits from a Doomscythe's Death Ray. Lost firepower is a lot harder to measure, then, since loss of MLs will depend a lot on wound allocation from a random flyer direction and total casualties suffered.
SonicPara wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote: i was talking a base squad of 5 guys, broadsides also have more wounds less bodies but more wounds, but hey if i take 10 havoks i can still plop the template on the ones with the missile launchers and wipe them out on 2's where as the broadsides will only lose a wound... so in the case of baleflamer the broadsides will survive its first hit whereas devs and havoks dont..
A base unit of Broadsides isn't 3 suits so at a base unit the broadsides will have less wounds AND less bodies. Things like the baleflamer are the only instance where a Broadside unit is more resilient than an equal costed unit of devastators against a flyer's alpha-strike. Every other situation, assuming equally competent placement of both units, the devastators outshine the Broadsides. I only see two things that the Broadsides have over devastators and that is range (unless that gets nerfed too) and flexibility when skyfire is brought in to the mix. Other than that the devastators outshoot and outlast the Broadsides; and we aren't even considering the threat of assaulters yet.
Actually I'd say that equal point values of NewSides are more resilient than Devs, in more situations than you care to name. They're more resilient to non-AP2, non-S8+ shooting than Devs are, and that accounts for a majority of shooting out there. You'll take twice as many casualties from Devs as you do NewSides at equal point values, and you won't have twice as many wounds worth of Devs to do it with. Against S8+ AP2 or better shots with "equally competent placement" you're right - Devs lose fewer models, and that's the only instance they do so. Oh, and as far as firepower - as soon as you go beyond the initial 5-man unit of Missile Devs, you're not getting more heavy weapon firepower in that unit, you're just adding bolter shots. 3 NewSides has more firepower than 8 Devs do, period.
Oh, and lets not forget that having S8 AP1 shots are a lot better than having S8 AP3 shots. You have more impact against armor (200% more likely to explode on a pen), kill flyers easier (200% more likely to explode on a pen), kill 2+ save models far more efficiently (roughly 500% more likely to deny the save), and so on. Again, you're really really overstating the case - NewSides are still a good choice. More firepower than an equal amount of Devs, more survivable against more kinds of firepower and flyers than an equal point of Devs, and more effective at killing vehicles than equal points of Devs.
Savageconvoy wrote: The rumor also hinted that Hammerheads lose the multitracker, or more specifically couldn't fire like a fast vehicle anymore. So it's just as mobil as any other tank at this point.
The rumor about the standing still and getting extra shots never bothered to clarify, and I believe will only apply to pulse weapons. Much like how the Dakka Banner only affects bolters. Do you really think they would let all Tau units get extra shots in regardless of weapon type?
My read was that it just specified multitracker - nothing was said about them not being able to fire as fast as a blanket statement, IIRC. I'm reserving judgement on this one, especially since I run mech heavy - if true, that definitely changes things for me. Doesn't make things unworkable, but I will need to shift. Happens.
I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for the Tau Dakka Banner Aura Ability Thingy to apply to all infantry within XXX" or something similar. Especially since this *would* be an excellent way to buff their shooting and compensate for their lack of assault responses. Just like I could see the Overwatch buff being a banner / aura type ability, or need an upgrade for the squad / wargear.
I've always thought that wargear like Dakka banners are lame. I don't use it for my DA. "Hey sarge, stop shooting the enemy and raise that flag so we will shoot even more!" I really hope we don't get anything like that. We already have unique and logical way to enhance our shooting, Markerlight.
Removal of the multitracker might just mean that it's not available as separate option. I mean, nobody ever takes Hammerhead without one, so what's the point?
Lovepug13 wrote: Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...
Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leak
geeez some people
There's a couple of the folks who have been leaking rumors about the new dex posting over on the Warseer thread. Couple of the new tidbits from Neko:
- Riptide will not be an uber-Broadside (I read this as no Railguns on it)
- Crisis suits repackaged, but not new ones.
- Plastic Pathfinders, with a Big Drone.
- Flyers will be a gunship and a bomber. Look like upscaled TX-42s.
- No Kroot in the new Battleforce box.
From Shas'O Iceborn:
- Will be a Kroot HQ choice
- 2 "new" special characters
- Rail Rifle / Rail Gun / Rail Cannon are the ways GW is distinguishing between the rail weapons
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backfire wrote: I've always thought that wargear like Dakka banners are lame. I don't use it for my DA. "Hey sarge, stop shooting the enemy and raise that flag so we will shoot even more!" I really hope we don't get anything like that. We already have unique and logical way to enhance our shooting, Markerlight.
Removal of the multitracker might just mean that it's not available as separate option. I mean, nobody ever takes Hammerhead without one, so what's the point?
Eh, I see the "stand and shoot more" ability as a way to give Tau more volume of shots without making it really really overpowered. Making it wargear / aura dependent also controls it to some degree. If it's pulse weapons only, that'd be another way.
I love me some markerlights, and hope that we see more of them in more slots and cheaper. I've got 2 Tetras just waiting to go; hope they're not nerfed to uselessness.
Given that the rumor is that suits will have Multitrackers standard, I could easily see them doing something similar to Hammerheads. Just like they're giving NewSides free A.S.S. since it was so frequently taken on OldSides.
Lovepug13 wrote: Well I have read them and was wondering if anything else had popped up...
Not to much to expect a few more tidbits or maybe even a photo leak
geeez some people
There's a couple of the folks who have been leaking rumors about the new dex posting over on the Warseer thread. Couple of the new tidbits from Neko:
- Riptide will not be an uber-Broadside (I read this as no Railguns on it)
- Crisis suits repackaged, but not new ones.
- Plastic Pathfinders, with a Big Drone.
- Flyers will be a gunship and a bomber. Look like upscaled TX-42s.
- No Kroot in the new Battleforce box.
From Shas'O Iceborn:
- Will be a Kroot HQ choice
- 2 "new" special characters
- Rail Rifle / Rail Gun / Rail Cannon are the ways GW is distinguishing between the rail weapons
Railheads are only a gamble against av 14. Properly supported by marker lights they perform beautifully against everything else AND still have a reasonable shot at blowing up a Land Raider.
This really isn't that case. Because the railgun gets only one shot, even though it is an impressive shot, you have three separate chances to fail the shot, four if the vehicle has a cover save, and that is enough to make it a gamble against any vehicle. Even against AV10 with no cover save, your chances of a kill shot are only 33%, and it only increases to 42% with marker support. And you are depending on the kill shot, because a single railgun can only take a single hull point per round.
The gamble only gets worse at the armor value goes up. The chances of destroying AV11/AV12/AV13/AV14 are 28%/22%/17%/11% respectively, again with no cover, and 35%/28%/21%/14% with marker support. These numbers simple are not good enough to justify hammerheads as a primary anti-take vehicle. The hammerhead railgun will require a serious buff if it is intended to replace broadside anti-tank shooting, especially because broadsides are typically used to tackle AV13-AV14.
I for one wouldn't mind a more mobile anti-tank platform. Here is hoping the hammerheads get an anti-tank buff and don't lose the ability to fire at cruising speed.
Veskrashen wrote: There's a couple of the folks who have been leaking rumors about the new dex posting over on the Warseer thread. Couple of the new tidbits from Neko:
- Riptide will not be an uber-Broadside (I read this as no Railguns on it)
- Crisis suits repackaged, but not new ones.
- Plastic Pathfinders, with a Big Drone.
- Flyers will be a gunship and a bomber. Look like upscaled TX-42s.
- No Kroot in the new Battleforce box.
That's really interesting. Crisis suits were one of the only models people really wanted changed. I really hope this is wrong because I can't stand any more warped jetpacks, static poses, awkward balancing on the toes, and the terrible ball joint on the hips. I can never get those to stick right. That would also imply the Broadside is just going to be a Crisis suit with awkwardly balanced cannons and clown shoes.
Was there any mention of markerlight changes? I'm assuming the +1 BS for all units with one hit, removes coversaves with 2 hits will be all we see. Which would make anything more than minimum squad sizes weird.
I wonder what the big drone could possibly be. Could Pathfinders get access to sniperdrones on top of their own rail rifles?
danp164 wrote: im confused, people saying a nerf to railgun's is good because it will see Broadsides spammed less.... but Tau spam crisis suits, are they going to be nerfed as well to make people spam stealth suit squads?
Before crying broadside spam people should look at the cause, what with hammerheads being easier to knock out of the sky, and sniper drones being lower strength, easier to kill railgun's. The problem isn't the power level its that the other options are undesirable in almost any situation. Here's an idea, if GW are putting Kroot HQ's back in, why not a Kroot Heavy Support, put the Greater Knarloc in the codex, a mid cost Str7 T5 fleeting monstrous creature/beast to enable to codex to be played in a totally different way, and whilst were on the subject, how about shoving some more viable options into the elite category? and for Gods sake either take out the ethereal's as a combat option or make them do something useful.
I mean seriously all the fluff we have shows that ethereal's rarely make the military decisions and normally defer to the fire caste commanders, why is such a high priority target even on the battlefield?
Just my 50 pence worth
The reason why anyone spams anything in any army is that it has a clear advantage over the rest of the units in that codex.
If people don't like spamming, they need to persuade GW not to write crappy unbalanced codexes.
Unfortunately I do not think that goal is achievable as I believe the bulk of GW's sales are to early teens who have not developed the judgement to recognise and deprecate spamming.
Didn't see anything for markerlights other than the +1 BS and remove cover options. You're right that it means min sized PF squads, unless they can take something else cool, or have split fire.
As far as the Big Drone - could be Heavy Gun Drones, could be Sniper Drones. Could be the new rumored drone that gives Shrouding like Stealth Suits are supposed to get (that'd be a big, and welcome, change). There weren't any specifics that I could see.
Oh please no. I'll take S6 AP3 Broadside Railguns before I accept those abominations
Depends on what they're carrying, IMO. If it's more burst cannons, then totally agree. If it's Missile Pods, or Fusion Blasters, or Plasma Rifles... totally different story IMO.
juraigamer wrote: Lots of tau haters around spreading false rumors, the battlesuits are not only being re-done, but have been re-done for a while.
That's what I was thinking too. We've had rumors for a long time that the models were done and looked amazing. From the same source as the Platemail Firedragons for Chaos too if I remember right.
juraigamer wrote: Lots of tau haters around spreading false rumors, the battlesuits are not only being re-done, but have been re-done for a while.
That's what I was thinking too. We've had rumors for a long time that the models were done and looked amazing. From the same source as the Platemail Firedragons for Chaos too if I remember right.
This is what I'm betting on as well, but passing on rumors that I saw because the source has had several of them that seem to be corroborated by other sources.
New Black Library exclusive – Shadowsun From Dan Harden, White Dwarf Daily at 15:03 GMT
Black Library's latest novella - Shadowsun: The Last of Kiru's Line - goes on pre-order today and what a cracking read it is! Usually when a new book comes into the office Adam and Andrew get first pick (mostly because they're bigger than me), but seeing as I'm the Tau collector in the White Dwarf office I donned my stealth suit and sneaked this novella away while they weren't looking.
The novella follows the story of Shadowsun - the highest ranking military commander in the Tau Empire. Curiously the story isn't about all-out warfare, but a survival mission, pitting Shadowsun and her cadre agains the defenders of an Imperial planet. While the novella may not be very long, it is packed full of exciting information about the Tau race, from battlesuit technology and weapons to Tau physiology and emotions. Much of the story is told from Shadowsun's point of view and flits between her sadness at the death of her sister to her anger at the forces of the Imperium. If you're into your Tau then this book is a definite must-read.
In the jungles of the Dolorosa Coil, a coalition of alien tau and human deserters have waged war upon the Imperium for countless years. Fresh Imperial Guard forces from the Arkhan Confederates are sent in to break the stalemate and annihilate the xenos. But greater forces are at work, and the Confederates soon find themselves broken and scattered. As they fight a desperate guerrilla war, their only hope may lie in the hands of a disgraced commissar, hell-bent on revenge.
I definately want to look into the Shadowsun book, but Firecaste scares me. I'm really expecting a scene where the Commisar armed only with a laspistol manages to take down an entire squad of battle suits on his own.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Standard look on the suit in the picture though. Only thing that I have trouble seeing is the weapon. Some dual twin-barrel gun of some kind. At first I thought it was the burst cannon, but it's clearly not.
shaso_iceborn wrote:There was much talk of refining the Tau codex weapons list. This is simply one of the ways we have heard about. I almost didn't post here at all but when I came on I had lots of PMs with support, with that said I will post this much for those who support messengers.
The mini ally dex has to my understanding been incorporated into the codex at the beginning of the book and will no longer be a separate compendium.
There is a Kroot HQ, but not in the conventional sense and he cannot command "Tau" forces (unless they bring back Prok but I have heard nothing on him)
Farsight will have a new model, it looks similar to the gamesday one.
Rail Rifles, Rail Guns, and Rail Cannons are the way they are distinguishing different rail type weapons in the new codex.
There will be 2 "new" special characters, one we may have seen before. (Aun'shi I think but do not have confirmation)
All I am giving for now will update later.
And to the those who said ignore the haters, thanks for the support and well wishes.
To the haterz, I only post what I am told, I honestly wish I was making it up sometimes as it would be easier than defending myself from certain people. Information comes, I pass along, nothing more, if I was making it up I would do something less dramatic.
Neko wrote:No new crisis suits, just a repackaging. I do believe the pathfinders are plastic though, and with a Big Drone too.
The new rules regarding overwatch look to be good for both gunline and mobile Tau. The key in either case is to make sure that your units are supporting each other, which has been a ke theme for Tau from the start anyway.
BTW, the 2 flyers are a bomber and a gunship - no transport. Incidently, they look a little like upscaled TX-42s
(...)
I suspect the Broadside change is also to bring the rules more in line with the model. The Broadside railguns have always looked to be about midway between a railrifle and a Hammerhead's railgun.
Edit: Also, for the conspiracy theorists, why would GW nerf the Broadside in favour of selling new models when the Broadside is a new model?
So are folks thinking they wont redo the krootox or kroot hounds? I had also heard a rumor of kroot hawks? Neko can you add anything regarding kroot?
Only that there's none in the new battleforce box.
The Dude wrote:Ethereals buff units that they join with a selection of effects. One such effect gives an extra shot. This combined with a piece of wargear that adds 6" max range to the squad means that it's possible to rapid fire 3 shots at 18".
Apparently this can potentially be 4 if the Fire Warrior special character is also attached.
Riptide is rumoured to be around 165 base but only start with twin-linked Plasma.
The Ion Accelerator is apparently an upgrade: three S7 AP3 shots or one S8 AP2 Large Blast.
There's supposedly a special rule on the Riptide called Nova Accelerator which can do 4 things:
Buff weaponry (unsure how or which weapons)
Double the shots of support weapons (missile pods ect)
Increase invulnerable save to 3++
Boost a stat (unknown which or by how much)
The Dude wrote:Ethereals buff units that they join with a selection of effects. One such effect gives an extra shot. This combined with a piece of wargear that adds 6" max range to the squad means that it's possible to rapid fire 3 shots at 18".
Apparently this can potentially be 4 if the Fire Warrior special character is also attached.
Riptide is rumoured to be around 165 base but only start with twin-linked Plasma.
The Ion Accelerator is apparently an upgrade: three S7 AP3 shots or one S8 AP2 Large Blast.
There's supposedly a special rule on the Riptide called Nova Accelerator which can do 4 things:
Buff weaponry (unsure how or which weapons)
Double the shots of support weapons (missile pods ect)
Increase invulnerable save to 3++
Boost a stat (unknown which or by how much)
Now these sound interesting. I like to see buffs stack and what fun combos you can create with them.
But if the Riptide doesn't have a Railcannon, flyers won't have a railgun at all, and none on the Broadside then will Hammerhead be the only High S weapon to deal with A13/14?
Is there some new Railgun special rule I'm missing?
The Riptide looks more like a better Hammerhead with a combination of submunition and Ion Cannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And who wants to bet the Nova Accelerator buffs are random?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You also have to look closely at the cover art. Each gun only has two barrels, one over the other with the two guns side by side. The burst cannons contain four total barrels on one rotating piece. That gun wouldn't be able to rotate so I'm guessing it's not a burst cannon.
Savageconvoy wrote: T
You also have to look closely at the cover art. Each gun only has two barrels, one over the other with the two guns side by side. The burst cannons contain four total barrels on one rotating piece. That gun wouldn't be able to rotate so I'm guessing it's not a burst cannon.
It looks to me like they added a secondary stabilizer closer to the Battlesuit hand, and that it is a single full ring at the end with 4 barrels attached, but there is a bit of heavy shadow that could be a divide, or just poorly drawn shadowing. But then I have difficulty with some colors, and you are likely correct.
Actually you're right. I mistook the very heavy shadowing, which looks a bit out of place to me, for a divide. That thing looks insanely thick for a burst cannon though.
Savageconvoy wrote: T
You also have to look closely at the cover art. Each gun only has two barrels, one over the other with the two guns side by side. The burst cannons contain four total barrels on one rotating piece. That gun wouldn't be able to rotate so I'm guessing it's not a burst cannon.
It looks to me like they added a secondary stabilizer closer to the Battlesuit hand, and that it is a single full ring at the end with 4 barrels attached, but there is a bit of heavy shadow that could be a divide, or just poorly drawn shadowing. But then I have difficulty with some colors, and you are likely correct.
It's a burst cannon, clear as day. I might ask what resolution/monitor are you using? On my iPad, there is no mistaking it. I also have the iBooks version of Fire Caste, and I can confirm on the cover image it is also clearly a burst cannon. What is confusing you (aside from shadows) is probably what you would call a mid-barrel clamp on an M61 Vulcan cannon, which a burst cannon superficially resembles, which is not present on any of the burst cannons currently on models. Nothing new to see here.
I can say that I'm looking forward to the Shadowsun novella, and it is just another piece that may be pointing to a possible April release for Tau, in accordance with the rumors.
Oh, and for those of you wondering about Fire Caste, it's not bad so far, but it's somewhat slow in the beginning. I still don't know why it says for release next week...I've had the book for almost a week now.
I look forward to the release of the Shadowsun novella. I expect good reading from the perspective of a renown Shadowsun piloting an experimental stealth suit. I hope it reveals more on how Tau views gender and tactics employed by a commander who favors stealth.
Firecaste front cover scares me. I hope it doesn't turn out to be a an over the top rambo like story with a vengeful Commissar single handily taking out a whole Tau cadre. Up until now, it's been speculative of what Tau do to prisoners of war or those who don't embrace the greater good. Most of the arguments have been made around the Dawn of War computer game series. It seems Firecaste might show light on the darker side of the greater good.
On a side note, I'm surprised none of the Black Library authors have wrote a story telling Farsight's past. It seems it would be quite a tale to tell.
Years ago, I played around writing about Shadowsun as she is one of my favorite characters and I wanted to flesh out some of the ideas I had about Tau ideology and sensibilities:
I pre-ordered the Shadowsun novella yesterday and am eager to see what it reveals about her and her culture. Beyond all the new units and build potential, I am excited for a new dex primarily to learn more about the Tau perspective and background. There are more than a few tantalizing hints in the the Tau Empire book and I generally like how GW has put more flesh on the bones of the xenos factions in the last few years.
Frankly it's shocking how little has been written on the xeno races, and how utterly poorly they've been portrayed. Most BL books are of no interest to me. I did enjoy the Eldar trilogy. However, I hated how all 3 books take place in the same time frame, just 3 different perspectives. I think they could have conveyed the same info about the Eldar, still use the 3 perspectives, but make the story line more epic. There was such potential!
I LOVED the first DE book, and I plan to get the 2nd one. That story line is simply amazing. Andy Chambers is probably the best writer of everyone in the BL. Maybe if GW cared about quality they wouldn't have lost his extraordinary talents to Blizzard.
I think Tau books would be great if done right. SWAT team tactics, snipers, high tech military gadgets, stealth, politics, etc. The subject matter is a recipe for sci-fi amazingness.
Archonate wrote: Frankly it's shocking how little has been written on the xeno races, and how utterly poorly they've been portrayed.
Gotta say, the Tau Empire dex is chock full of very interesting hints. I'd say Tau have been portrayed very well in that sense, i.e., in making them appear unique and interesting. But there is so little of it, especially in the way of BL stuff. I guess the trouble with xenos is that there's a risk when you explore them in greater detail that they lose the mystique that makes them seem alien in the first place. Granted, a talented author can certainly craft sympathetic characters without overly "humanizing" them. I have high hopes in regard to the Shadowsun novella since, given what we know from the current dex, she lost her sisters. The trauma of losing loved ones is relateable BUT what exactly that means in the context of Tau society is something we know pretty much nothing about.
Looking at this rumor about new Kroot and Vespid HQ choices, I'm hoping a new dex will give us some more fluff on the non-Tau races, too.
Sorry to go wish listing, but the Broadside/Hammerhead debate could be mostly resolved if the new marker lights allow twin-linking as one of he options.
I think that might have been one of the rumours a while back, but I honestly can't remember, there's been so many variations flying around.
ShatteredBlade wrote: If they keep with the terrible block look of the crisis suits it'd kill it for me.
I'm just assuming this "no suits" rumor is bs, based on how utterly fething stupidGW would have to be to ignore quite literally the entire Tau fanbase again, who have all been begging for new crisis suits since even before the Tau Empire update. Tau players already have all the suits they'll ever need, that are either fully magnetized or they're prepared to rip off old weapons and glue new ones on if optimal load-outs change (which is what I've been doing myself all this time because I couldn't be bothered to feth with magnets and how do they work anyway?), so repackaging the same old ugly suits isn't going to make them any more money, except from these so-called "new players" who people insist are still buying into GW despite the prices being so stupidly high (this gak was off-putting to me even back in 2006-07, I debated with myself for weeks before I finally bought my first Tau models, a troop+transport deal at my local store, and after that a battleforce that I got a 10% discount on), but they would have to buy the new ones anyway, so new designs will still make more money. Refusing to update this ugly kit once again is just deliberate trolling, I don't know how else to describe it.
As for Tau fluff, it always irritated me how people basically summed them up as the "animu army" and nothing more. Tau are a lot more interesting than that, personally I liked how they felt like the most "modern" of every 40k army, even the reliance on drones is kinda topical right now and personally I wish they'd do more with that instead. I don't have very high hopes for the new codex because it seems the people left in the design studio are subscribing to that "animu" mentality as well, because the best idea they can come up with for a new unit is a stupid fething anime trope. I like big robots just fine, but it doesn't fit with Tau design philosophy, and reeks too much of someone thinking "Well Tau are anime so they need Gundams." Add to that fact that our rumored flyers are apparently garbage, AV10 with S6 guns...seriously, the technologically bakcwards Imperium can strap no less than three twin-linked lascannons to their aircraft, but the Tau, despite having done this before with the tigershark, can't figure out how to put a single rail weapon on theirs? I sincerely hope the new flyers have some bs wargear that makes up for their paper-thin armor because I don't imagine GW selling very many of these kits otherwise, and of course in the end it won't be because GW wrote stupid fething rules for it, but because "Tau aren't popular anymore, let's not look at updating them again for at least a decade." In any case, there doesn't seem to be much here for a Tau player to get excited about.
GW are already on thin ice with me after what they did with Dark Eldar, buying into that army and rewarding them for finally listening to the fanbase that had been asking for them literally every single year at Games Day was probably one of the worst things I could have ever done, second only to buying into this gakky fething game in the first place. I don't think I've ever felt more betrayed (by a games company anyway). 6th edition has ruined 40k for me, and that likely won't change even if GW did Tau justice, but I can at least buy the new models and paint them up while holding out hope that GW will un-feth their game with the next edition. If this codex blows then I think it will be the final nail in the coffin for me, and based on what we know so far, it's not looking good.
Also, if you want to argue that the "riptide" does somehow fit into Tau design philosophy because they have the broadsides then by all means, please do, because broadsides are one of my least favorite Tau units. I love the FW models, don't get me wrong, but they were always too slow and static for me. I stubbornly insisted on using my hammerheads until about halfway through 5th edition when I finally caved and started using broadsides in my lists, because it became apparent I was going to have to in order to do anything but lose or force a draw. No, winning isn't "everything", but it's also not any fun to play a game all the time and literally never win, no matter how hard you try, no matter how many different units you experiment with or different tactics you try to employ.
But no, I don't like giant stompy robots for Tau. I always liked how, contrary to what everyone would expect from the animu army, they thought the idea of slow, ponderous robots like titans were impractical and instead developed superior aircraft and bombers when they needed more firepower. I still find it funny to imagine a warhound or reaver clumsily stomping through Skull City and getting knocked flat on its ass from a pair of rail cannon shots from tigersharks doing a flyby. "Where is your machine god now?"
I know your pain man. (long time Wood Elf player, GW be damned in my book), but the end is not neigh. I like you like the Tau fluff, but don't see it as animu. I like to think of it more as what the imperium might have been before the fall of man and his wars.
With that in mind, I was hoping for less animu like units (aka riptide). But there is hope! Many of the rumors state rules changes to FWs, and ethreals. Things that represent a very combined arms approach that a futurist and high tech force might use.
Ethreals providing buffs to firewarriors, FW commander leading the troops forward. Support fire from redesigned pathfinders and their big drone(Sniper drone?) Hammerheads rounds streaking overhead, forcing the oppossing infantry to walk toward our awaiting sharpshooters. Speedy light armor attempt to flank our lines, but and streak missile flys from the cloud, leaving a burning wreckage, and suddenly a Razorfin (trademarked, lol) appears from the clouds, ramjets leaving a trail in the sky.
This is how I picture Tau, and I believe the rumors might still bring my (our) dreams to reality.
Coyote81 wrote: I know your pain man. (long time Wood Elf player, GW be damned in my book), but the end is not neigh. I like you like the Tau fluff, but don't see it as animu. I like to think of it more as what the imperium might have been before the fall of man and his wars.
With that in mind, I was hoping for less animu like units (aka riptide). But there is hope! Many of the rumors state rules changes to FWs, and ethreals. Things that represent a very combined arms approach that a futurist and high tech force might use.
Ethreals providing buffs to firewarriors, FW commander leading the troops forward. Support fire from redesigned pathfinders and their big drone(Sniper drone?) Hammerheads rounds streaking overhead, forcing the oppossing infantry to walk toward our awaiting sharpshooters. Speedy light armor attempt to flank our lines, but and streak missile flys from the cloud, leaving a burning wreckage, and suddenly a Razorfin (trademarked, lol) appears from the clouds, ramjets leaving a trail in the sky.
This is how I picture Tau, and I believe the rumors might still bring my (our) dreams to reality.
Exalted!
This is exactly how the Tau should be. I love the combined arms, luring the overly confident unit into a kill box, playing to strengths and minimising weaknesses approach. People shouldn't get too upset just yet, there is hope, there is time to make changes to your own play styles and not be condemned! After all the Tau are all about versatility!
Sidstyler wrote: As for Tau fluff, it always irritated me how people basically summed them up as the "animu army" and nothing more. Tau are a lot more interesting than that, personally I liked how they felt like the most "modern" of every 40k army, even the reliance on drones is kinda topical right now and personally I wish they'd do more with that instead. I don't have very high hopes for the new codex because it seems the people left in the design studio are subscribing to that "animu" mentality as well, because the best idea they can come up with for a new unit is a stupid fething anime trope.
I remember reading that Tau were heavily influenced by anime tropes in the designer notes published in White Dwarf when Tau first came out back in 3rd edition. Retaining that influence doesn't mean the design studio has become corrupt-- it's what they were thinking in the first place!
Sidstyler wrote: Add to that fact that our rumored flyers are apparently garbage, AV10 with S6 guns...seriously, the technologically bakcwards Imperium can strap no less than three twin-linked lascannons to their aircraft, but the Tau, despite having done this before with the tigershark, can't figure out how to put a single rail weapon on theirs? I sincerely hope the new flyers have some bs wargear that makes up for their paper-thin armor because I don't imagine GW selling very many of these kits otherwise, and of course in the end it won't be because GW wrote stupid fething rules for it, but because "Tau aren't popular anymore, let's not look at updating them again for at least a decade." In any case, there doesn't seem to be much here for a Tau player to get excited about.
Wait and see. Personally, as a Tau player I am very excited. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I think things are looking really good. Keep in mind also that if the Broadside rumors are true, Tau won't need air superiority flyers-- air-to-ground will have it covered, so the air force will be free to wreak havoc on the enemy ground units.
Sidstyler wrote: GW are already on thin ice with me after what they did with Dark Eldar, buying into that army and rewarding them for finally listening to the fanbase that had been asking for them literally every single year at Games Day was probably one of the worst things I could have ever done, second only to buying into this gakky fething game in the first place. I don't think I've ever felt more betrayed (by a games company anyway).
The Dude wrote:The Ion Accelerator is apparently an upgrade: three S7 AP3 shots or one S8 AP2 Large Blast.
Not sure if this will only be on the Riptides, or if Hammerheads will get this same version. But regardless, this will be a HUGE game changer in a lot of ways, more so than the Baleflamer. Why, do you ask? Well, markerlights = no cover save, S8 AP2 blast = pretty much any non-Hammernator infantry gets splatted. Beautiful way to clear objectives or to handle annoying deathstars. This would neatly solve Draigowing, most Deathwing builds, most Ravenwing builds, that DEldar invisible beastpack, Wraiths to some degree, Seer Councils to some degree. Oh, and it adds in some much-needed anti-horde for Tau, since most people aren't running Hammerheads for the S6 large blast. Hopefully we'll get more AFPs in the mix as well, though that's wishlisting.
Just beautiful. Especially since all my HHs already have Ion Cannons built on them.
From the Warseer forums:
Neko wrote:Seeker missiles can now be carried on suits
Opens some interesting possibilities - given DS, etc - but if they're still 10pts each and need marker hits to use, that's less than awesome. Does continue to make front AV less important in factoring how hard it is to kill armor, though,
The Dude wrote:The Ion Accelerator is apparently an upgrade: three S7 AP3 shots or one S8 AP2 Large Blast.
Not sure if this will only be on the Riptides, or if Hammerheads will get this same version. But regardless, this will be a HUGE game changer in a lot of ways, more so than the Baleflamer. Why, do you ask? Well, markerlights = no cover save, S8 AP2 blast = pretty much any non-Hammernator infantry gets splatted. Beautiful way to clear objectives or to handle annoying deathstars. This would neatly solve Draigowing, most Deathwing builds, most Ravenwing builds, that DEldar invisible beastpack, Wraiths to some degree, Seer Councils to some degree. Oh, and it adds in some much-needed anti-horde for Tau, since most people aren't running Hammerheads for the S6 large blast. Hopefully we'll get more AFPs in the mix as well, though that's wishlisting.
Just beautiful. Especially since all my HHs already have Ion Cannons built on them.
From the Warseer forums:
Neko wrote:Seeker missiles can now be carried on suits
Opens some interesting possibilities - given DS, etc - but if they're still 10pts each and need marker hits to use, that's less than awesome. Does continue to make front AV less important in factoring how hard it is to kill armor, though,
werent marker lights being changed........ so i wouldnt be counting on removing cover saves
Kingsley wrote: Keep in mind also that if the Broadside rumors are true, Tau won't need air superiority flyers-- air-to-ground will have it covered, so the air force will be free to wreak havoc on the enemy ground units.
Except that if flyers are really a problem for you, the Broadsides won't really do much more than the previous version. If it's true then the 85pt S8 version will be 20% increase in cost to go from 20% chance to penetrate an A12 flyer to 25% chance. Though if they throw in Missile pods vice SMS, then I could see them being very expensive but useful AA platforms. Maybe Railguns won't be the only primary weapon for them, and maybe we'll get access to some of that weird new Ion weaponry that seems to be good at messing up vehicles.
And I wonder if the large blast Ion Accelerator will be worth it. I doubt it's large blast, because why would you ever fire it as S7 AP3?
And how would suits carry seeker missiles? I don't remember a mention of Seeker missiles being replenishable, so they'd probably still be one shot weaponry. They're large, so they'd probably take a hardpoint on a suit or just be prohibitively expensive.
Savageconvoy wrote: Except that if flyers are really a problem for you, the Broadsides won't really do much more than the previous version. If it's true then the 85pt S8 version will be 20% increase in cost to go from 20% chance to penetrate an A12 flyer to 25% chance. Though if they throw in Missile pods vice SMS, then I could see them being very expensive but useful AA platforms. Maybe Railguns won't be the only primary weapon for them, and maybe we'll get access to some of that weird new Ion weaponry that seems to be good at messing up vehicles.
And I wonder if the large blast Ion Accelerator will be worth it. I doubt it's large blast, because why would you ever fire it as S7 AP3?
And how would suits carry seeker missiles? I don't remember a mention of Seeker missiles being replenishable, so they'd probably still be one shot weaponry. They're large, so they'd probably take a hardpoint on a suit or just be prohibitively expensive.
One word, Range. Imo seeker missiles should become a skyray only thing and be unlimited.
I agree. I mean, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free kind of applies. You get seeker missiles, for a better cost, split between multiple vehicles you already purchased, and don't take up a Heavy Support choice.
Sidstyler wrote: As for Tau fluff, it always irritated me how people basically summed them up as the "animu army" and nothing more. Tau are a lot more interesting than that, personally I liked how they felt like the most "modern" of every 40k army, even the reliance on drones is kinda topical right now and personally I wish they'd do more with that instead. I don't have very high hopes for the new codex because it seems the people left in the design studio are subscribing to that "animu" mentality as well, because the best idea they can come up with for a new unit is a stupid fething anime trope.
I remember reading that Tau were heavily influenced by anime tropes in the designer notes published in White Dwarf when Tau first came out back in 3rd edition. Retaining that influence doesn't mean the design studio has become corrupt-- it's what they were thinking in the first place!
I know full well what influenced them. My point was that there was still more to Tau than anime tropes, and I think we would be better off if the studio explored/expanded on that more instead of going even more over-the-top with them. Just because they were designed to be the anime army doesn't mean that's what they should always be, and just because something is "anime" doesn't mean it automatically fits in with Tau, either. The giant mecha suit is very anime, but the "riptide" just sounds like it'll look out of place in an army with smaller, faster suits and grav tanks/speeders. An army that was previously established as not fielding units much bigger than crisis suits because they were impractical. If there's enemy armor that the hammerhead or the superheavy version (the name of which I can't remember, "swordfish" I think?) can't handle then that's where the aircraft come in.
In any case I'm obviously reserving final judgment for when the gak actually comes out, I'm just saying, right now I'm not too thrilled.
Sidstyler wrote: Add to that fact that our rumored flyers are apparently garbage, AV10 with S6 guns...seriously, the technologically bakcwards Imperium can strap no less than three twin-linked lascannons to their aircraft, but the Tau, despite having done this before with the tigershark, can't figure out how to put a single rail weapon on theirs? I sincerely hope the new flyers have some bs wargear that makes up for their paper-thin armor because I don't imagine GW selling very many of these kits otherwise, and of course in the end it won't be because GW wrote stupid fething rules for it, but because "Tau aren't popular anymore, let's not look at updating them again for at least a decade." In any case, there doesn't seem to be much here for a Tau player to get excited about.
Wait and see. Personally, as a Tau player I am very excited. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I think things are looking really good. Keep in mind also that if the Broadside rumors are true, Tau won't need air superiority flyers-- air-to-ground will have it covered, so the air force will be free to wreak havoc on the enemy ground units.
Sidstyler wrote: GW are already on thin ice with me after what they did with Dark Eldar, buying into that army and rewarding them for finally listening to the fanbase that had been asking for them literally every single year at Games Day was probably one of the worst things I could have ever done, second only to buying into this gakky fething game in the first place. I don't think I've ever felt more betrayed (by a games company anyway).
Uh, what?
I kept crying for Dark Eldar to be updated, like a lot of other people in the community were, every time GW put out more boring Space Marine crap and DE continued to rot in limbo for 9, 10, 11+ years. People implied that DE wouldn't ever get redone because they just wouldn't sell, and people like me weren't capable of putting our money where our mouth is and buying 2000 point armies when and if they finally ever got redone. So when DE were finally revealed at Games Day I pre-ordered some and fast got to work building a rather large army of them. I couldn't afford to buy a full 2000 points right off the bat, obviously, but I kept buying for months. Then after a while it became more and more apparent that the codex wasn't as good as we first thought, especially after Grey Knights came out. Now with the advent of 6th DE are even worse off, because DE can't take objectives, they have no units durable enough to reliably hold them either, our flyers are made of paper and have crappy guns, and we can't ally with anyone but Eldar who also have a lot of the same problems, so we can't make up for any of those crippling weaknesses, either.
Basically, I'm angry because I spent all that money supporting GW and the DE release and I don't feel like I even have a viable army out of the deal anymore. DE aren't really worth running right now, and the codex is barely two years old. Combined with GW's various other shenanigans it's going to take a lot to convince me to spend more money on them. Tau are my favorite army, so if they feth that up I'm done, lol.
Savageconvoy wrote: And how would suits carry seeker missiles? I don't remember a mention of Seeker missiles being replenishable, so they'd probably still be one shot weaponry. They're large, so they'd probably take a hardpoint on a suit or just be prohibitively expensive.
I'd like to imagine the suit carrying it in his hands and throwing it like a football.
FrozenSoul80 wrote: Speculation on codex contents aside, what date do we normally see White Dwarf leaks?
With the Daemons release I don't think we saw leaks until a few days before they went up for advance order. There's a good chance we probably won't see anything until the last minute.
ShatteredBlade wrote: If they keep with the terrible block look of the crisis suits it'd kill it for me.
I'm just assuming this "no suits" rumor is bs, based on how utterly fething stupidGW would have to be to ignore quite literally the entire Tau fanbase again, who have all been begging for new crisis suits since even before the Tau Empire update. Tau players already have all the suits they'll ever need, that are either fully magnetized or they're prepared to rip off old weapons and glue new ones on if optimal load-outs change (which is what I've been doing myself all this time because I couldn't be bothered to feth with magnets and how do they work anyway?), so repackaging the same old ugly suits isn't going to make them any more money, except from these so-called "new players" who people insist are still buying into GW despite the prices being so stupidly high (this gak was off-putting to me even back in 2006-07, I debated with myself for weeks before I finally bought my first Tau models, a troop+transport deal at my local store, and after that a battleforce that I got a 10% discount on), but they would have to buy the new ones anyway, so new designs will still make more money. Refusing to update this ugly kit once again is just deliberate trolling, I don't know how else to describe it.
As for Tau fluff, it always irritated me how people basically summed them up as the "animu army" and nothing more. Tau are a lot more interesting than that, personally I liked how they felt like the most "modern" of every 40k army, even the reliance on drones is kinda topical right now and personally I wish they'd do more with that instead. I don't have very high hopes for the new codex because it seems the people left in the design studio are subscribing to that "animu" mentality as well, because the best idea they can come up with for a new unit is a stupid fething anime trope. I like big robots just fine, but it doesn't fit with Tau design philosophy, and reeks too much of someone thinking "Well Tau are anime so they need Gundams."
Yeah, I'm not big with mega-suit idea myself either. Large monsters lose their appeal when every army is shoehorned one. I guess in next Space Marine codex there will be "Thunderknight"...and "Riptide" is a daft name, I hope it's something else. Also definitely agree with whole "Tau is anime" thing being overblown, Eldar are just as if not more anime-influenced, but for some reason nobody ever seems to have issue with it.
It would be humongous disappointment indeed if there will be no new model fo XV-8. Current one is not great, and particularly Broadside is fugly and ungainly. What I'm looking from the new book is a way to again play Mont'ka. Mostly this would necessite Devilfishes and troop choices being better and more survivable than they presently are.
Neko wrote:Seeker missiles can now be carried on suits
The Dude wrote:More info is coming to light regarding the Tau release. What I've personally heard is:
Aun'shi is rumoured to be returning.
Two new characters are said to be included.
One character is a tank commander (presumably a vehicle upgrade) like Pask from the IG Codex. He is supposedly in a Hammerhead and allows it to overwatch.
The other Character allows Fire Warriors to consolidate after Overwatch.
So it seems Overwatch is going to be the Tau's special trick, at least from a Fire Warrior perspective.
The large suit thats been rumoured for a while is supposedly called the Riptide. It is a Jump Monstrous Creature armed with Ion Cannon and standard Battlesuit support weapons.
The Ion Cannon can reportedly use two fire modes, Heavy 3 (possibly 4) and single shot Large Blast.
I have heard of the following releases:
Riptide large suit
Flyer dual kit (fighter and bomber)
New Battlesuit and Broadside models (not sure if these dual kit or not)
Plastic Pathfinders
A new Fire Warrior HQ (not sure if the special character mentioned above or a generic one)
LoL seeker missle on a suit.
Im kinda upset about the riptide not having Railcannons, but im fine with an Ioncannon. I just hope they give it more options.
Don't think it was flat out debunked, but it was a mention from early play testing.
Which also makes me think that the rumor of the Ion weapons causing shutdowns won't be seen.
So if Tau max out at 3 S9+ weapons and we don't get the Ion Cannon system shutdown rule, then it may be hard to handle A13/14. Which is interesting since the two armies I've had the most trouble with are mech/blob IG and Necron mech heavy lists.
Try reading the post above you again.
Mech IG doesn't give a flying gak about your fusion blasters, so hammerheads are your best bet if they are the only thing left with the big guns, but if capped at 3.....you're boned.
I guess I should have specified it as long range Anti-tank weaponry. Wasn't that one of the finer points to Tau? Great anti-tank weaponry for long range combat.
If we were stuck to Fusion Blasters then we would still be behind any MEQ army that can bring meltas and speeders with multi-meltas, not to mention that any army with Lascanon Devastators will be better than Tau at long range anti-armor.
Neko over at Warseer wrote:Has anyone mentioned yet that Pathfinders get new experimental toys to play with? I think they're ion based too, so they may even be truely mind-blowing like the rail rifles before them
via shaso_iceborn over on Warseer The mini ally dex has to my understanding been incorporated into the codex at the beginning of the book and will no longer be a separate compendium.
There is a Kroot HQ, but not in the conventional sense and he cannot command "Tau" forces (unless they bring back Prok but I have heard nothing on him)
Farsight will have a new model, it looks similar to the gamesday one.
Rail Rifles, Rail Guns, and Rail Cannons are the way they are distinguishing different rail type weapons in the new codex.
There will be 2 "new" special characters, one we may have seen before. (Aun'shi I think but do not have confirmation)
The white dward snippets come out when we get lucky. There is no real expected time for them. That's if we even see anything until the White Dwarf is actually released.
And it's only confirmed when they put pre-orders up on the website.
via shaso_iceborn over on Warseer There is a Kroot HQ, but not in the conventional sense and he cannot command "Tau" forces (unless they bring back Prok but I have heard nothing on him)
So does anyone have any idea what this means? Are we looking at either A) the Kroot HQ can only take Kroot & Tau Allied xenos (Vespid and what not), but not Tau units as a whole or B) the Kroot HQ is a similar case to the FW Wraithseer, it can be a HQ but not the main HQ if using Tau units.
Either way I would love to build a full Kroot army, hopefully they will get a big boost and new weapons (Anti-tank) with the upcoming dex.
via shaso_iceborn over on Warseer The mini ally dex has to my understanding been incorporated into the codex at the beginning of the book and will no longer be a separate compendium.
You should check this thread (esp. the previous page), if something Natfka finally found on Warseer, isn't already posted here, like this quote.
via shaso_iceborn over on Warseer There is a Kroot HQ, but not in the conventional sense and he cannot command "Tau" forces (unless they bring back Prok but I have heard nothing on him)
So does anyone have any idea what this means? Are we looking at either A) the Kroot HQ can only take Kroot & Tau Allied xenos (Vespid and what not), but not Tau units as a whole or B) the Kroot HQ is a similar case to the FW Wraithseer, it can be a HQ but not the main HQ if using Tau units.
Either way I would love to build a full Kroot army, hopefully they will get a big boost and new weapons (Anti-tank) with the upcoming dex.
For me it looks like the Kroot HQ could not join Tau-units/anything but Kroot and probably you would need a Tau HQ too.
What it is sounding like to me is that the Kroot will be an "ally" that may be taken either in addition to allies from the chart or in place of the ally chart. They will likely have a rule allowing the Kroot to be taken as allies with other armies, using the "Tau Empire" section of the allies chart to see their alliance type.
Leaving the Vespid in the actual Tau Empire units would then be justified by saying that they are fully inducted members of the empire, where Kroot are often mentioned as close allies.
Looks like there was no Crisis suit resculpt. ergh.
The Riptide looks a little comical and blocky, but probably will be better in person
Flyers are also no too exciting.
Looks like there was no Crisis suit resculpt. ergh.
The Riptide looks a little comical and blocky, but probably will be better in person
Flyers are also no too exciting.
I like the general look, wish I could get some closer pictures though.
You're fething kidding me? They really are just repackaging the old ugly suits?
Wow, they really are that stupid then.
Riptide looks awful, and apparently I was right, $85 just like the slaughterbrute. The new flyer looks awful, like seriously, what the feth is up with that design? Good god. Can't even tell what the broadside got turned into but I'd care to wager it's awful, too...oh yeah, one model per kit, and it went up to $50. lol, speaking of which the crisis suits are $75, and IIRC they currently retail for $25 so by bundling them together in one box you save...nothing.
What have they done to Tau? I was honestly hoping that all my complaining was for nothing and that GW couldn't possible feth up the Tau release this bad but god damn it they fething did. None of this stuff is any good. It's all overpriced and looks like garbage. So that's that, I'm done I guess.
Worrying price points. If this is a standard point for the Monsters/large vehicles then i think we all know which items will be price 'adjusted' this summer to bring everything in line.
Models wise im not prepared to slate them too much till better pictures surface but flyers meh. Crisis now look horribly dated, and Riptide looks kind of cool, plenty of potential from looks of things even if it is a blatant rip of that conversion a while back.
I don't know how to describe what I'm feeling right now. I'm just staring at the screen in awe of how terrible it all is.
I seriously could have scrawled a better design for a Tau flyer on a fething napkin in five minutes. I think I'm gonna go do that right now in fact, just as soon as I can move again. Holy good god damn.
The riptide doesn't look that bad, althought I was expecting a four legged mech Armored Core style. Kinda a shame the old battlesuits have just been repackaged, that SunShark is pretty ugly, time for conversions me thinks.
Either way not to bad looking so far, or at least nothing I can't fix with conversions/custom bits. At this rate I might finally start that Tau army I've been planning to make for the last 2 or so years.
If you want to imagine how i sound right now, Think a a Highschool girl after just getting asked to the ptom by the head of the Football team.
YES.
first thing i get will be............im not sure. Time to raid my savings
IMO the flyer isn't bad, it's just unimaginative. It's like they told the designer to play it safe with this one because the last few flyers got such negative reviews, so we get a scaled-up Piranha TX-42. Unless the rules are amazing and I can't do a counts-as model I'll probably just keep my Barracudas.
Speaking as somebody that has alot, and I mean alot of the old battlesuits and such, in a way I am kinda relieved not to have a huge amount of new minis to buy, yeah I know the old Crisis were blocky and such, but with a little conversion work they can be suped up nicely, i you hate the standard look that much.
The new flyer..hmm well it aint no barracuda, but still has a nice tau look to it.
The Riptide...I have never really like the idea of huge battlesuits, but its not to overly bad from the pics, may pick up 2-3 .
This looks like a first wave release, so hopefully the codex will be full of other stuff. also it looks like the broadside is armed with a single railgun or somesuch, if so I already converted some of my old suits just like that.
could have been better, but could have been much much worse, will need to see more and better pics, or even better get them in my hot hands.
I think those fliers have been designed by someone watching far too much T2. Still blurry pics, coudl all look a lot better, Id love to see a better pic of the Broadside.
Well I guess it's official. Riptide (argh) looks OK, though nothing really special. Pretty pricey.
Flyer looks absolutely horrible. What they were thinking? Straight wings & boom tail give it a WW2 feel, which is completely unsuitable for Tau. I won't buy one, regardless of how great its rules are. I was really expecting this one, looking how great Barracuda looks, and this was a huge disappointment.
No new XV-8 model. Mega-disappointment. What is a point of bundle box? It won't increase sales, quite the contrary since more people need just 1 suit, than 3, so instead of buying box of three suits, they end up buying zero.
Pathfinders, can't tell, at least they are reasonably priced. Too bad I don't need any more Pathfinders.
Broadside, again picture is too bad. Price is _really_ high, though at least it comes with two Shield drones.
Well, doesn't look good so far, but maybe the Codex is really good...
I quite like the look of the Riptide but the price is absolutely horrendous.
As for paying £30 for one Broadside...maybe it's time to head over to GW's site and order those Broadside upgrade sprues (which are also pricy, but I do have some unassembled Crisis Suits I can use them on).
hotsauceman1 wrote:I cant read it. Does it say the flyer is 65 or 85 USD?
It's 65.
Fezman wrote: maybe it's time to head over to GW's site and order those Broadside upgrade sprues (which are also pricy, but I do have some unassembled Crisis Suits I can use them on).
If you're going to do it, do it now. Those sprues won't be available much longer.
The Riptide blows me away model-wise. I'll probably pick one up as a centerpiece even if the rules are mediocre. From the group photo, it looks to have more than double the height of a Crisis suit-- and that's with the Riptide further back. This definitely hits the "big huge centerpiece kit" model and price point square on. I expect to see lots of these, and I can't wait to see what converters can turn out.
Not a big fan of the flyer, but I expect that, as with every other recent flyer release, the model will look a lot better in person. A little surprised this one wasn't 75 USD like the Dark Angel ones were, but maybe GW learned from their mistake there. Hopefully the rules support the kit as well, though-- that's where the DA flyer really fell down. People are fine with buying expensive Heldrakes if they're at least good in game. Lastly, it looks like the flyer comes with drones, which is interesting to me.
The new Broadside looks sick, but it's competing with Forge World at that price, so it better have the options to make up for it. That said, when you consider Broadsides are currently 40something and the kit sucks and doesn't have any real options, it seems more reasonable.
Somewhat disappointed with the Crisis repackage rather than redo. Rumor has it the repackage comes with the Command Suit upgrade sprues, so that would be cool and add some value, but ultimately I was hoping there would be a new model and they'd drop to three for 50 like the new Killa Kanz.
The last plastic release, though-- the new Pathfinders-- is awesome. New kit, probably new options, and a huge price cut to boot? I like the old Pathfinder models, but they're 20 bucks for three. 35 for ten Pathfinders plus three drones is a hell of a lot better, especially when you consider how fundamental Pathfinders are to the Tau playstyle.
Right now this release gets a solid B from me. The Riptide is completely awesome, the Broadside revamp looks very cool as well, and the huge Pathfinder price cut will be a boon for many players. However, I think GW dropped the ball a little on this when they kept the old Crisis suits. Those models are pretty dated IMO and a revamp could easily have pushed this into Dark Eldar "A" release territory.
Well, The Riptide looks Cluttered, but that may be the pics.
I wish i can tell what kind of weapons are on the Flyers.
I cant see the broadside(Really dont care)
And no new crisis suits if fine by me TBH, I like them.
Still means i have to build more though. And 3 at a time.
Riptide looks great IMO. I think it really captures a nice look to Tau. The feet are a bit tiny, but oh well. I'll be happy to take one or two as a project.
The Broadsides look like the one in the 5th BRB where they showed how conversions can look. The spread shot is hard to tell, but it looks like lots of missiles on them.
Can't see drones that well and really disappointed they didn't make a new Crisis suit.
Oh and the flyer looks unsalvageable. It looks just a Piranha with some extra crud tacted on to make it look even less Aerodynamic. I don't even know how I could convert it to look presentable. If the rules are as bad as speculated then this will never get my money. I won't even ask them to shut up.
well based on the group pic, looks like a broadside will have a railgun (doublebarreled) or smartmissle systems, since the pic seems to show 2 of them to the right and infront of the riptide, and the smartmissle one looks like it has a seeker missle on its back.
Also the riptide has at least 2 diff main weapons, the ion cannon thingy , and burst cannon thingy, hopefully with several other options.
Actually kinda excited for this release..its been soooo long since any new offical Tau models were made.
75$ USD for the crisis suit?
I hope they keep the single on(Hint: they wont)
Wow, that is just sad actually.
This will actually force me to buy from 20% discounters.
Gw, Why do you have to be so great and so bad at the same time. They better not increase the price of these either.
Oh and the flyer looks unsalvageable. It looks just a Piranha with some extra crud tacted on to make it look even less Aerodynamic. I don't even know how I could convert it to look presentable.
It's really bizarre, it's almost entirely recycled Tau visual elements, yet the whole model doesn't even remotely fit Tau aesthetics. I mean, it looks more like IG or Ork flier. FW has soooo good looking Tau fliers which they could have ripped off, but nooo....
Upon some closer scrutiny, I can say that there is definitely a seeker missile on the back of a suit in the big pic. Still trying to make out more, but it would be nice to get some closer looks. What is the official release date of this month's WD?
Kingsley wrote: The Riptide blows me away model-wise. I'll probably pick one up as a centerpiece even if the rules are mediocre. From the group photo, it looks to have more than double the height of a Crisis suit-- and that's with the Riptide further back. This definitely hits the "big huge centerpiece kit" model and price point square on. I expect to see lots of these, and I can't wait to see what converters can turn out.
Not a big fan of the flyer, but I expect that, as with every other recent flyer release, the model will look a lot better in person. A little surprised this one wasn't 75 USD like the Dark Angel ones were, but maybe GW learned from their mistake there. Hopefully the rules support the kit as well, though-- that's where the DA flyer really fell down. People are fine with buying expensive Heldrakes if they're at least good in game. Lastly, it looks like the flyer comes with drones, which is interesting to me.
The new Broadside looks sick, but it's competing with Forge World at that price, so it better have the options to make up for it. That said, when you consider Broadsides are currently 40something and the kit sucks and doesn't have any real options, it seems more reasonable.
Somewhat disappointed with the Crisis repackage rather than redo. Rumor has it the repackage comes with the Command Suit upgrade sprues, so that would be cool and add some value, but ultimately I was hoping there would be a new model and they'd drop to three for 50 like the new Killa Kanz.
The last plastic release, though-- the new Pathfinders-- is awesome. New kit, probably new options, and a huge price cut to boot? I like the old Pathfinder models, but they're 20 bucks for three. 35 for ten Pathfinders plus three drones is a hell of a lot better, especially when you consider how fundamental Pathfinders are to the Tau playstyle.
Right now this release gets a solid B from me. The Riptide is completely awesome, the Broadside revamp looks very cool as well, and the huge Pathfinder price cut will be a boon for many players. However, I think GW dropped the ball a little on this when they kept the old Crisis suits. Those models are pretty dated IMO and a revamp could easily have pushed this into Dark Eldar "A" release territory.
+1
Broadside and Riptide looks absolutely amazing. Price wise, I'd probably stick to using my old Broadsides. $50 USD is steep for a single model. Wow, Games Workshop repacking the old Crisis Suits into a box of 3 for $75. I guess we'll be stuck with their ugly static poses for a while. At least that gives Forge World 1-up over Games Workshop.
The new flyers look lackluster. I was expecting something more exotic that rivals the Dark Eldar's Voidraven Bomber. Instead, it looks like a mashup of a Devilfish kit with longer wings and a tail. It doesn't look hard to convert, which I may do judging by it's steep cost.
10 Pathfinders + 3 Drones for the same cost as Fire Warriors, which comes with 12 Fire Warriors and 2 Drones? Those Pathfinders better come with new weapon configurations or special equipment or else I'll just keep fielding my Pulse Carbine Fire Warriors as Pathfinders.
Oh and the flyer looks unsalvageable. It looks just a Piranha with some extra crud tacted on to make it look even less Aerodynamic. I don't even know how I could convert it to look presentable.
It's really bizarre, it's almost entirely recycled Tau visual elements, yet the whole model doesn't even remotely fit Tau aesthetics. I mean, it looks more like IG or Ork flier. FW has soooo good looking Tau fliers which they could have ripped off, but nooo....
I'm not a fan of the flyer either, but I'll make my decision when we get 360's of it. It'll probably be nice, just like those plague flies.
Looks like a good time for Tau, which makes me even more excited for what my Orks will get!
I'm officially interested, but I'd be preemptively buying fire warriors and battlesuits right now if I hadn't seen Jeremy Vetock's name attached to the codex.
Yeah I noticed that too, theres something hiding, it looks like a crisis suit but taller with a rounder body, it has a white head and a "backpack", a new commander suit?
There may be a plethora of drone types in the codex, and the more i look at the riptide the more it resembles the Havoc suits from FW, just super sized.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: There may be a plethora of drone types in the codex, and the more i look at the riptide the more it resembles the Havoc suits from FW, just super sized.
Yeah, the drone on the right in the broadside box pic looks like it has a missile pod attached to the bottom.
If this is april that's an insane release schedule for this year. We're looking at 4 40k Codexes since 6th dropped in 8 months.....And 2 Fantasy books (I think it's 2).
I like the Riptide. I'm sad about the crisis teams but I like the Pathfinders from what I can see and since I hated the old broadside this looks good to me. I'm excited even if the rate stuff is coming out means I'm having to control my spending for the first time in year since I haven't had the time to build up a store credit...
I don't think the flyers look horrible, they do look a bit "recycled" and they are no barracuda, which is probably what GW should have really borrowed the aesthetics from, but the models look decent enough. What really concerns me is the only two weapons I can identify on these models are a burst cannon and a missile pod. I sure hope the flyers are better equipped than that, otherwise I am just going to use Necron allies for air support. Come on GW, give the fliers real freaking weapons.
The crisis team for $75 seems expensive but that is only because they're currently $25 each now anyhow. I think the reboxing bodes well for a 5-man crisis team max size, unless something in the tau'va prohibits it.
That new mega suit (a MC no doubt) looks sick! Broadside pictures are too grainy for me to make a call yet. FLyer looks okay, but I've never been a fan of Tau Vehicle designs to begin with...
Phanixis wrote: What really concerns me is the only two weapons I can identify on these models are a burst cannon and a missile pod. I sure hope the flyers are better equipped than that, otherwise I am just going to use Necron allies for air support. Come on GW, give the fliers real freaking weapons.
Yeah, this is the biggest problem. We don't need another DA-style flyer where they forget to put any decent guns on it.
I was thinking of selling my Tau, but the new broadside, the Riptide and the new flyer (I like it, alright) will at least have me building a small Tau army. Not until after Adepticon, of course.
Can anybody identify if it's 50 or 60€ for the Crisis pack? If it's 50€ we would actually save money
I'm not that convinced by the flier yet but I'll wait till I see it live. As there is way enough stuff on my Tau to-buy list, even without the new stuff (I'll definitely get a Riptide tough, it just looks awesome) and I'm not that interested in fliers at all, imho it's not that important.
Well, I think the Riptide looks good enough that it will work with the rest of the tau army. It appears to have a bunch of weapons on it, so it might be a versital unit and cover many rolls. I will probably get one.
The flyers look about what I expected. I was hoping the Tau estetics would move it into the #1 place on my favorite list, but no. That spot will still be held by the DE flyer for the time being. However, its hands and hoof better than anything that has been released since the Ork Flyer kit. I can see myself getting one, maybe two (depending on rules).
I'm totally split on the lack of Crisis suit redesign. I'm really happy that they will look exactly the same as the ones I already have, but a part of me was hoping for something new.
I already have 8 pathfinders so I will not be buying this box, however the different drones on the cover give me hope for how the drones have been expanded.
As for the Broadsides, I already have two (I love the design of the Hammerhead too much) and the most I'd ever field anyway is 3 so I'm very indifferent to how they look.
"I hate to post about rumor type stuff but I happened to get a box from GW today and inside they had used a shredded up box for packing the contents. this shredded box had a label..."
"It's hard to read but It says "Tau Sunshark / Razorfish Frame 1", there were 50 in the box and the pallet had 1500 apparently."
I am honestly wondering if the re molded the Crisis suits like they did with the speeders a couple years back. Maybe they have joints or something now for more possiblity. Kinda like what the rumors said early on. It would make them a bit better as far as that goes. I personally never had a problem with the look of them, just the lack of possibility.
I can say that the prices are ridiculous as always from GW.
I was excited to see the Dreadknight sized Suit. Its interesting from what I can see. But again that price just makes me want to throw up.
I don't really care about fliers anyways so I am not to concerned with it. It looks Tau to me.
I can't believe the Broadside is $50. That's insane. Now I apparently need to get bigger bas.... Wait... It's on the MC base? So I can't fit it onto a Bastion anymore?
balsak_da_mighty wrote: I am honestly wondering if the re molded the Crisis suits like they did with the speeders a couple years back. Maybe they have joints or something now for more possiblity. Kinda like what the rumors said early on. It would make them a bit better as far as that goes. I personally never had a problem with the look of them, just the lack of possibility.
Hopefully the common crisis suit molding errors such as the head-top crater and the curving away jetpack parts are gone
Very interesting choice of units. Remove the Dfish and Kroot, add 2 battlesuits and a Piranha. I wonder if that's an indication of something...maybe no Kroot in the codex, cause I haven't seen a single bird man yet.
Not bad. That is a real deal right there. Depends on the models abilities(Im hoping Stealth suits get a boost)
for 130$
I might have to pick that up after the flyer and the riptide.
Yeah. Though they'd be something like $170 seperately, I think. $75 for the suits + $35 for the FW + about $30 for the Piranha and $30 for the Stealth Suits.
Hulksmash wrote: So Free Piranha or discounted stuff and free stealth suits. It's not a great deal but it isn't horrible.
Well now its not, But we dont know what they changed to suits to do. for all we know, SS would be amazing.
BUT, Anyone notice the SS colors scheme, same as the sept. Kinda odd.
I really like the battleforce contents, although I have no idea what will be good in the new codex. I could see picking up a few of these to form the backbone of a new Tau force.
Well, looks like NewSides are definitely moving to more of a fire support role as opposed to a strict heavy armor killer. Multiple SMS is an interesting idea, depends on the S/AP though as to whether it'll be worth it. Missile pod drones = excellent, IMO.
New Pathfinder box looks good, be interested to see what the extra drones do.
Riptide looks excellent, even though I'm probably not going to field one - want a more mobile army.
Flyers look... good, to me at least. Not a fan of the little support struts, but we'll see. Looking forward to more details on how well they perform.
No real look at how Hammerheads and Devilfish have changed, so guess we're still in the dark on that one.
Savageconvoy wrote: I can't believe the Broadside is $50. That's insane. Now I apparently need to get bigger bas.... Wait... It's on the MC base? So I can't fit it onto a Bastion anymore?
Welcome to Australian prices. We've had to pay $50 for a broadside for years now. It was even more when they shifted it to finecast.
I saw on another forum where some guy was claiming the Tau flyers are going to be broken, even compared to the Heldrake apparently.
I did just notice that the Tau flyers seem to have air defense drones.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Apparently the reason why it has the raised back section is to fit two special weapons. The fighter has some kind of ion battery while the bomber drops the plasma corrosion bombs from the old skyray rumor. And apparently the bomber can hit a unit each turn and the effects stay with each unit for the rest of the game.
Savageconvoy wrote: I can't believe the Broadside is $50. That's insane. Now I apparently need to get bigger bas.... Wait... It's on the MC base? So I can't fit it onto a Bastion anymore?
Welcome to Australian prices. We've had to pay $50 for a broadside for years now. It was even more when they shifted it to finecast.
I'm expecting the XV104 to be Australian Land Raider prices (ie, 119+ dollars)
Savageconvoy wrote: I saw on another forum where some guy was claiming the Tau flyers are going to be broken, even compared to the Heldrake apparently.
I did just notice that the Tau flyers seem to have air defense drones.
flyers have been broken since the beginning, regardless. they should have had flyers be only available in over a certain amount of points or just not in standard play. They have made the game very boring and one sided for those without. Im happy tau is finally getting theirs and dont care what it looks like because i convert EVERYthing.
Everyone QQing over design of the new tau, should be thankful they are even doing an update lol. Im happy crisis suits didnt get a new model, it means i can use and not have buy new ones, and it means i can spend cash on the new stuff, not replacing old stuff. My biggest fear right now is kroot being gone/not seen, as i have an entire 1500/3000 points army converted to be Kroot/alien.
Automatically Appended Next Post: it reminds me of those videos you see, parents buy a kid a car and they cry its the wrong colour or year.
if ya dont like the models, dont buy em and dont play em. Cost is whole other rage fest everyone can get behind lol.
Pathfinders will be good rules wise, since they are not in battle force box... Pirahnas will be crap, for the opposite reason. And they would compete with the new superflier put out there. Too bad, since I have 5 of them.
And you can probably take pathfinders in groups of 12, seeing as how the box comes with only 10.
I guess I'm in the minority but the Riptide looks absolutely atrocious to me. It is literally just an upscaled XV-8; no imagination. The same goes for the flyer and how it is just a blown up TX-42. At least the Broadside is going in the right direction with a more sniper look, let's just hope the rules are better than rumored and that you (somehow) get $50 worth of kit from it.
So four actually new kits with (in my opinion) two being uninspired rubbish, one being sexy but overpriced, leaves only the plastic Pathfinders being the only clear winner at this point.
I've never been so excited to create high-quality proxies for Tau units as I am now.
I love the look of the new things except the flyer, that is kind of 'meh' to me. The battleforce also implies, atleast to me, that one of those units will be changed to troops (here's hoping for scoring stealth suits!).
my only concerns will be my wallet and possibly having to rename my tau commander >.>
Kilkrazy wrote: Wouldn't there still be Piranhas, Crisis suits and Stealth suits all with the potential to carry fusion guns?
Those are also still S8, just with the added stipulation that you have to effectively kill yourself in order to threaten heavy armor. Unacceptable when everyone is bringing oogles of cheap/free S8 along with S9 on almost every platform or special rules like lance.
I'm not a negative person, I don't like how these rumors (and now models) are making me feel. I sincerely hope that I am as wrong as humanly possible and this update isn't the biggest load of bollocks since 5th ed. Tyranids.
To be fair, lack of S9+ weapons isn't as crippling as it used to be. As long as there's enough S8 to go around (like Light Railguns and Seeker missiles), AV14 can be brought down via hullpoints, and AV13 and under is failr easy to neutralize the same way, if you can't seem to roll well on the damage table. It's hard, but it seems this edition GW wants AV14 and 2+ saves to mean something again.
Did anybody else notice that there are 10 Pathfinders in the box, and what appear to be 3 Drones? I'm kinda worried about larger PF squads. I feel like they're compensating for taking something away... like maybe fewer of them get Markerlights. If, according to new rules, fewer of them NEED Markerlights, then why make the squad bigger? Smells fishy to me....
I'm very excited for a new codex. Looks like I can continue work on my XV8s. I think I'm generally okay with everything I'm seeing here.
Kilkrazy wrote: Wouldn't there still be Piranhas, Crisis suits and Stealth suits all with the potential to carry fusion guns?
Those are also still S8, just with the added stipulation that you have to effectively kill yourself in order to threaten heavy armor. Unacceptable when everyone is bringing oogles of cheap/free S8 along with S9 on almost every platform or special rules like lance.
Archonate wrote: Did anybody else notice that there are 10 Pathfinders in the box, and what appear to be 3 Drones?
I'm kinda worried about larger PF squads. I feel like they're compensating for taking something away... like maybe fewer of them get Markerlights.
If, according to new rules, fewer of them NEED Markerlights, then why make the squad bigger? Smells fishy to me....
Because, moving to plastic, they want to utilize as much of the sprue as possible? Which just happened to mean more Pathfinders made it into the box?
Anyone notice that the battleforce comes with 3 crisis suits, but those suits have a flock of drones? Maybe they made some serious drone changes, because I've never seen someone take that many drones in a crisis suit squad. I'm hoping they did, I have a shiny butt ton of drones sitting in my Tau bits.
From a balance standpoint it is awful. Give me access to them on something that isn't expensive and/or not-expendable and then it is a characterful design choice. Having them only on expensive elite infantry and fast attack vehicles make them a poor weapon.
Archonate wrote: Did anybody else notice that there are 10 Pathfinders in the box, and what appear to be 3 Drones?
I'm kinda worried about larger PF squads. I feel like they're compensating for taking something away... like maybe fewer of them get Markerlights.
If, according to new rules, fewer of them NEED Markerlights, then why make the squad bigger? Smells fishy to me....
Because, moving to plastic, they want to utilize as much of the sprue as possible? Which just happened to mean more Pathfinders made it into the box?
You think GW would alter the composition of a unit for that reason? I mean they could also fit 8 PFs in a box and sell it for the same price. I'm just antsy to see how PFs have changed....
Archonate wrote: Did anybody else notice that there are 10 Pathfinders in the box, and what appear to be 3 Drones?
I'm kinda worried about larger PF squads. I feel like they're compensating for taking something away... like maybe fewer of them get Markerlights.
If, according to new rules, fewer of them NEED Markerlights, then why make the squad bigger? Smells fishy to me....
Because, moving to plastic, they want to utilize as much of the sprue as possible? Which just happened to mean more Pathfinders made it into the box?
You think GW would alter the composition of a unit for that reason? I mean they could also fit 8 PFs in a box and sell it for the same price. I'm just antsy to see how PFs have changed....
Either they'll provide more support that doesn't involve Markerlights or they've become much more reliable and cheaper in scoring Markerlight hits. It will come down to comparing them to Tetras, which is currently the best Markerlight platform.
Well, what a nice surprise to find first thing in the morning (what, doesn't everybody log onto Dakka first thing in the morning?)
Riptide: looks pretty awesome and from the picture it seems to tower over Crisis suits about as much as the Dreadknight towers over termies, so I guess it's a fair bit bigger. I don't mind paying the asking price for it.
Flyer: Looks rather boring from the front. I actually rather like the tail boom, makes it look strikingly different from the rest of the army in a good way. But the SMS turret on top of the tail fin really ruins the sleekness of the design.
Pathfinders: Not much to say here, can't see any detail. But the price really isn't bad for 13 models, comparatively.
Broadside: Looks to me like it's on a 60mm base and really chunky. Not enough to excuse the high price, but it's not as bad as paying that much for a Crisi-sized model. The question is, will people complain if you use the much smaller older model?
Battleforce: Looks like a great starter set (assuming the units are decent on the table) but existing Tau players should already have all of those units in spades.
Archonate wrote: If, according to new rules, fewer of them NEED Markerlights, then why make the squad bigger? Smells fishy to me....
Maybe they get a split fire ability and can mark multiple targets at once. Maybe they have other non-markerlight abilities (such as rail rifles) which benefit from a larger squad size and you have a choice between building two 4-man markerlight units or a single 10-man sniper unit. Etc.
From a balance standpoint it is awful. Give me access to them on something that isn't expensive and/or not-expendable and then it is a characterful design choice. Having them only on expensive elite infantry and fast attack vehicles make them a poor weapon.
I agree with you for the most part, but considering the fluff where Tau have quite short life spans (30-40 human years) I can see the old guys committing one last act of bravery to save the younger generations.
Gaming standpoint... totally useless.
Fluff wise... not so bad.
Puscifer wrote: I agree with you for the most part, but considering the fluff where Tau have quite short life spans (30-40 human years) I can see the old guys committing one last act of bravery to save the younger generations.
It doesn't even make sense fluff-wise because even if your old veterans are expendable you're also suiciding a crisis suit or Piranha that could be better used elsewhere. There's no way a melta-only approach makes sense.
As someone who's been kind of on the fringe of wargaming for the past month, I can say the Riptide is really, really, stupidly cool. I like that thing a lot, even though I can't see a ton of it. Overwatch being the Tau's trick makes sense, and is something I've thought about since I was dreaming up what Tau would get for a new codex way back in 5th edition.
It looks like one of the new drones that is with the pathfinders is more of a turret and pretty big. You can see it on their box and also behind their devilish in the picture spread.
And does anyone else think its kinda weird that the pathfinders seem to be in 3 separate squads on their box cover? I've never seen GW space their models like that on a box (if they're supposed to be one squad).
airmang wrote: It looks like one of the new drones that is with the pathfinders is more of a turret and pretty big. You can see it on their box and also behind their devilish in the picture spread.
And does anyone else think its kinda weird that the pathfinders seem to be in 3 separate squads on their box cover? I've never seen GW space their models like that on a box (if they're supposed to be one squad).
Am I imagining it, or is that a burst cannon halfway up the stem? If so, I'm wondering if Pathfinders get to deploy sentry turrets? That could be an interesting mechanic.
It's been a long time coming and from the pics so far I am pretty happy. My wallet however will not be happy. I did a little *yikes* at the price but Tau have always been my number one dudes, even though I have just got my Necrons up to scratch, Tau will always be the one :-D So...I will somehow justify the prices in my head.
I just hope we get decent rules to match the models now. In fact I am looking forward to the rules a lot more than I was new models as I like the range we have now.
1) Pathfinders - I can see these guys playing a much more important role in our armies now. They were always handy but most opponents knew to blast them away. Maybe these "sentry" turrets grant them shrouding/stealth or defensive capabilities? I imagine we may get to split them up or at least split fire with them.
2) Broadside - massive change in style and price BUT the railgun looks like it will be of similar size to the Hammerhead...does this mean we do not lose S10? Hard to judge just by aesthetics but why make it the same size?
I'm going to say the new fliers will be FA/HS, going from the price being less than most other fliers, apart from the Scythe, which you can take up to 9 of.
6 flier Tau list, anyone? Any problems with this line of reasoning?
Shas'o_Longshot wrote: I'm going to say the new fliers will be FA/HS, going from the price being less than most other fliers, apart from the Scythe, which you can take up to 9 of.
6 flier Tau list, anyone? Any problems with this line of reasoning?
Shas'o_Longshot wrote: I'm going to say the new fliers will be FA/HS, going from the price being less than most other fliers, apart from the Scythe, which you can take up to 9 of.
6 flier Tau list, anyone? Any problems with this line of reasoning?
Can't be as bad as Cron Air.
It just can't.
Well, no, they can take 9 And maybe the fliers will have no decent weapons, rendering an army made up of 6 of them severely lacking in railguns...
To be honest i wouldn't even mind if the stealth suits were troops. As long as they had either a major points decrease or a major boost in weapon choice/battlefield ability.
Coyote81 wrote: Stealth suits I guess, just wondering how their rules changed to make them viable and not OP as troops.
The rules as they are now wouldn't be OP as troops, just a gamble. Fire Warriors give you more bodies for resiliency, Stealth Suits give you higher quality per body.
, name three ranged weapons that can reliably take out AV13/14? And at what range brackets?
And maybe the fliers will have no decent weapons, rendering an army made up of 6 of them severely lacking in railguns...
