jazzpaintball wrote: with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.
If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.
75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%
2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.
That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?
jazzpaintball wrote: with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.
If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.
75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%
2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.
That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?
150% of a hit is 1.5 hits. He's just expressing 1.5 average hits, just like we do in mathhammer all the time. The error he made was using a percentage to express it, which is accurate but confusing.
As to your hammerhead question, hammerheads can't even kill rhinos. Ask any tau player, hammerheads have a magnetic field that manipulates the plastic dice as they roll, causing any "to-hit" roll made by them to come up as a 1.
It's true. I think my Railheads have killed like 1 vehicle in total over last 3 years.
I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.
Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.
How does a snapshot with a reroll for a snapshot make 66% chance to hit? you have a 16.6% chance to hit the first roll, and the same 16.66% percent to hit on the reroll. 66% chance to hit that does not make.
I think he was trying to say 2 attacks which gets you .66 hits (better listed as # of hits than % chance to hit) - this also explains the "150%". But the math is still a bit off. You don't gain the full 16.66% chance on your second attack - it's dependent on the first missing.
(1/6)+(5/6)*(1/6) = (11/36) = 30.6% chance to hit
(3/6)+(3/6)*(3/6) = (27/36) = 75% chance to hit
Full math on removing a hull point or destroying, single shot:
Spoiler:
Old vs AV10: 30.6% to take HP, 15.3% chance to Explode
New vs AV10: 62.5% to take HP, 25% chance to Explode
Old vs AV11: 30.6% to take HP, 12.7% chance to Explode
New vs AV11: 50% to take HP, 18.8% chance to Explode
Old vs AV12: 25.5% to take HP, 10.2% chance to Explode
New vs AV12: 37.5% to take HP, 12.5% chance to Explode
Handwavy, for flyers you're almost doubling chance to explode AV10, increasing chance to explode AV11 by 50%, and barely increasing chance to explode AV12. For stripping hull points, the new Skyfire Broadsides are vastly superior.
Edit: some info duplicated in time I took to post, and I didn't address AV14 ground at all. That's another conversation I'm not sure the answer of. I like the new Broadsides if the codex has enough anti-AV14 beyond them.
jazzpaintball wrote: with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.
If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.
75% becomes .75
two people = 2 chances of 75%
2 * .75 = 1.5
1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.
That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?
150% of a hit is 1.5 hits. He's just expressing 1.5 average hits, just like we do in mathhammer all the time. The error he made was using a percentage to express it, which is accurate but confusing.
Yeah, go back and do expected hits. It is silly and wrong otherwise.
And again I'd say that "glancing to death" is fairly poor strategy on a three shot unit that is fairly expensive. Glancing to death is last resort "I have a lot of bolter shots, lets see what sticks" mentality that should not be applied to a Heavy Support unit. Something like the Forgefiend with 8 S8 shots, which can re-roll to penetrate dice would be far more suited for that kind of task.
jazzpaintball wrote: with the exception of the skyfire (which I did screw up) I did not add percentages, I multiplied them.
If you have a two man team with each having a 75% chance of hitting, it is a 150% chance of the team hitting.
75% becomes .75 two people = 2 chances of 75%
2 * .75 = 1.5 1.5 back to percentages = 150% of that team hitting.
That's not how percents work in this context...you can't have a 150% chance to hit. It's impossible. Maximum is 100%. That's like saying 110% of the students passed a test. How do you have more students pass the test than are in the class?
150% of a hit is 1.5 hits. He's just expressing 1.5 average hits, just like we do in mathhammer all the time. The error he made was using a percentage to express it, which is accurate but confusing.
If a team fires three times, averages 1.5 hits. That's a 50% chance your shot will hit and a 7/8 chance that something WILL hit. This turns into somewhere around a 87% chance (rough math) that the TEAM will hit at least one shot. There is a slight chance, even with three twinlinked weapons that nothing will hit. Very slim but still possible.
If anyone wants to debate this further with me, please send me a PM.
As to your hammerhead question, hammerheads can't even kill rhinos. Ask any tau player, hammerheads have a magnetic field that manipulates the plastic dice as they roll, causing any "to-hit" roll made by them to come up as a 1.
It's true. I think my Railheads have killed like 1 vehicle in total over last 3 years.
QFT. I only took railheads for the pie plate. After the first few outings of impotent rail weaponry, got MUCH more mileage out of a large blast than out of a supposed 66% chance to hit
Savageconvoy wrote: I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.
Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.
Funny, because I've played Tau for 5 years, and last week was I finished my third broadside, I've always used hammerheads for the S10 shot. Broadsides are new to me. I know I'm in the minority but I'm not alone.
Savageconvoy wrote: I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.
Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.
Funny, because I've played Tau for 5 years, and last week was I finished my third broadside, I've always used hammerheads for the S10 shot. Broadsides are new to me. I know I'm in the minority but I'm not alone.
yup, been playing since the Tau were first released in 3rd edition. I have played with all the models many many times.
Since 5th edition, I have gotten away from vehicles in general. I love them in apoocolypse games, but in anything smaller than 2500 points, 2-3 devilfish is all that you need, and those were the taxes on the pathfinders.
Vehicles have gotten better in 6th, especially skimmers, but I still dont take them. Tau really shine when you take out all the fat out of your list. cheap commander, minimalist suits, minimalist vehicles. More models. I am feilding 88 models in a 1600 point list. They shine well. Broadsides made this possible with my anti-armor needs taken care of for the cost of 2 fully loaded hammerheads. I got 4 twin linked rails that are a lot harder to kill for less than 2 railheads.
taking that away from me forces me to change my entire play. I dont care if I change or not, but forcing me to have only one option to kill armor is what I hate. I do not feel that suiciding my Tau suits, as limited as they are, is a choise. but now, thats all I have. A tank, or suicide.
I am disapointed in the change due to this. I want the ability to chose what to take and how to play my army. Now it seams like I have to have a cookie cutter list... and that makes me a very sad tau player...
jazzpaintball wrote: taking that away from me forces me to change my entire play. I dont care if I change or not, but forcing me to have only one option to kill armor is what I hate. I do not feel that suiciding my Tau suits, as limited as they are, is a choise. but now, thats all I have. A tank, or suicide.
I am disapointed in the change due to this. I want the ability to chose what to take and how to play my army. Now it seams like I have to have a cookie cutter list... and that makes me a very sad tau player...
You may want to wait a week or two before despairing. Or check the Redbeard quote in my sig.
Chance to Pen Flyer:
AV10: 100%
AV11: 83%
AV12: 67%
Probability of Penetrating Hit:
AV10: 31%
AV11: 25%
AV12: 20%
New Broadside:
Chance to Hit Flyer: 75%
Chance to Pen Flyer:
AV10: 67%
AV11: 50%
AV12: 33%
Probability of Penetrating Hit:
AV10: 50%
AV11: 38%
AV12: 25%
Only a marginal benefit is obtained for the new broadsides against AV12, but considerable benfit is obtained for lower AV values. The new broadsides will be particular helpful against Cron Air, but not of much extra value against Vendettas, Heldrakes or Stormravens.
The real problem is that Tau have plenty of other AA options and did not need to lose their best AT just for the improved chance to down AV11 flyers.
The more and more I read of this thread, the more and more I realize that I must have been in a minority becuase:
- I love stealth suits and with Fusion Blasters and Burst Cannons both getting buffs, as long as they don't lose their stealth/shrouded they will be definitely worth their points
- Broadsides were amazing, but huge fire magnets that always died. My stealth and crisis suits did the grunt work when it came to destroying armor and decimating MEQ - Hammerheads were my AOE, crowd control weapons. They were to make them roll dice on their infantry, not kill armor. Now they're cheaper.
- My stealth suits never competed with my crisis suits for elite slots. I had two HQ slots for crisis suits in addition to my 3 elite slots. I used two elite slots for stealth suits. and one for crisis, giving my HQ a bodyguard.
spoilered my inputs to the mathhammer debate below so I don't clutter the thread.
Spoiler:
jazzpaintball wrote: with two guns being fired at BS1 (due to flyer) you hit on 6's.
Against AV12
1 in 6 chance. 2 dice mean double chances to 33% chance.
twin linked gives you another chance.
.33 *.33 = .11 = 11% better chance to make a 44% chance of hitting
to pen (66%) makes it 29%
to explode (50%) makes it (rounded numbers) 15%
That is the proper numbers with old broadsides VS AV12 flyer.
the nice thing was that when they hit, it was a 100% that the opposing flyer was evading/jinking.
Hate to be rude, but you're inexperience with probability and statistics is showing here. If I roll two dice, each dice has 1/6 chance of a specific result, but the two dice are independent of each other. If I snapshot a twin-linked weapon, then I get a slightly worse than a BS2 shot. This is because you have to fail the first roll in order to take the second roll. The second roll combined with the first one is not quite 2/6. This means a twin-linked shot has somewhere around a 30% to hit.
However, if you have two of these shots at 30%, it is not a 60% chance that you will hit with something. You cannot add percents like that. Now, the more dice you throw in, the greater chance that you have that you'll have at least one hit, but it is definitely not the summation of the individual percents.
One element that this analysis ignores is that of Evading. In my experience flyers hit by powerful weapons will often choose to Evade. Hence, increasing your hit percentage may actually be more useful than increasing your strength, as in many cases forcing a flyer to Evade is "good enough." I for one am quite satisfied with the new Broadsides.
Kingsley wrote: One element that this analysis ignores is that of Evading. In my experience flyers hit by powerful weapons will often choose to Evade. Hence, increasing your hit percentage may actually be more useful than increasing your strength, as in many cases forcing a flyer to Evade is "good enough." I for one am quite satisfied with the new Broadsides.
Although you can also force the issue with markerlights and ignore cover.
Savageconvoy wrote: I find it hilarious that people are saying that the Hammerhead will be great at anti-tank, when nobody took Hammerheads for anything but the submunition. Seriously, just about every advice thread for Tau from late 5th and through 6th will have experienced Tau players saying that the Hammerhead is unreliable at anti-tank because it's a single shot weapon and you can only max out three of them per army, which is why the Broadside was taken.
Now just about nothing changes on the hammerhead except points, and people are trying to say it's great at it. I'm having a hard time understanding this. This is honestly the same issue if Mutilators got updated to be about 5 points cheaper and people trying to sell them off as an excellent assault unit.
Funny, because I've played Tau for 5 years, and last week was I finished my third broadside, I've always used hammerheads for the S10 shot. Broadsides are new to me. I know I'm in the minority but I'm not alone.
yup, been playing since the Tau were first released in 3rd edition. I have played with all the models many many times.
Since 5th edition, I have gotten away from vehicles in general. I love them in apoocolypse games, but in anything smaller than 2500 points, 2-3 devilfish is all that you need, and those were the taxes on the pathfinders.
Vehicles have gotten better in 6th, especially skimmers, but I still dont take them. Tau really shine when you take out all the fat out of your list. cheap commander, minimalist suits, minimalist vehicles. More models. I am feilding 88 models in a 1600 point list. They shine well. Broadsides made this possible with my anti-armor needs taken care of for the cost of 2 fully loaded hammerheads. I got 4 twin linked rails that are a lot harder to kill for less than 2 railheads.
taking that away from me forces me to change my entire play. I dont care if I change or not, but forcing me to have only one option to kill armor is what I hate. I do not feel that suiciding my Tau suits, as limited as they are, is a choise. but now, thats all I have. A tank, or suicide.
I am disapointed in the change due to this. I want the ability to chose what to take and how to play my army. Now it seams like I have to have a cookie cutter list... and that makes me a very sad tau player...
Kingsley wrote: One element that this analysis ignores is that of Evading. In my experience flyers hit by powerful weapons will often choose to Evade. Hence, increasing your hit percentage may actually be more useful than increasing your strength, as in many cases forcing a flyer to Evade is "good enough." I for one am quite satisfied with the new Broadsides.
Although you can also force the issue with markerlights and ignore cover.
I don't think firing markerlights at flyers will be generally practical, Skyray aside...
I'm pretty upset about the Kroot repurposing. Not because I was planning on using them in a Tau army, but because of how they will now be perceived. If everyone gets used to the standard Kroot model as being a sniper with crappy stats, it will be that much more difficult for me to effectively use a fully converted Kroot collection as an elite counts-as assault army.
It's almost like trying to use Ratling models as assault troops...
Wow, many weapon options for suits went UP in price... and the Shas'o is the only build available for choice... at a higher price... So a Crisis Suit HQ is going to be more expensive...
Looks like suits can take 3 of the same weapon to get a twin linked and non twin linked version, piling on more shots. With the cheaper base cost of the suits along with 8 pts of upgrades included free (multi tracker and bsf), overall suit costs will be 15-20 pts cheaper.
So I am over here laughing my a$$ off at all these naysayers. Each one seems to be looking at individual aspects per section and calling them bad. Cool go right ahead. Have your negative outlook, its fun to watch and laugh as you are proven wrong over and over and over and over (hell you get my point)
First off, why does it even matter with the changes? Just because you lost your favorite toy and LOVED being called cheese means nothing. Get over it, this codex is not 5th ed Chaos, you are getting SERIOUS improvements that are backed up by valid nerfs. HELL I think this is one of the more balanced codex to date!
Remember this is a GAMES WORKSHOP GAME! You get your cake but you cant eat it remember. The fact that Tau is not a great all round army (when not talking about assault) is amazing!
On to the mathhammer. Good on you. Great job finding the likely probability of things. That is fine, really it is. Have you considered that probability is an ongoing thing throughout an entire game? Lets take a few games I played. As a Tau, Blood Angels, and 'Nid player I have played games where things roll my way when needed. I have seen terminators fail 8 out of 10 2+ saves, I have seen Rhino's survive 9 old Broadside attacks with nothing more loss than a weapon or getting immobolized, only to repair that in the next turn.
This is a game where random chance and Luck are a thing. You can dress it up, call it what you like but it changes nothing in the end. All probability is is the chance of something happening. If you say a thing could happen, it will at a point.
As for the kool-aid. . . MMMMMMMMMMMMMM TASTES GREAT!
tetrisphreak wrote: Looks like suits can take 3 of the same weapon to get a twin linked and non twin linked version, piling on more shots. With the cheaper base cost of the suits along with 8 pts of upgrades included free (multi tracker and bsf), overall suit costs will be 15-20 pts cheaper.
Ha I can see suicide 3 fusionblaster suits being quite popular if you can actually take 3 weapons.
Lysenis wrote: So I am over here laughing my a$$ off at all these naysayers. Each one seems to be looking at individual aspects per section and calling them bad. Cool go right ahead. Have your negative outlook, its fun to watch and laugh as you are proven wrong over and over and over and over (hell you get my point)
First off, why does it even matter with the changes? Just because you lost your favorite toy and LOVED being called cheese means nothing. Get over it, this codex is not 5th ed Chaos, you are getting SERIOUS improvements that are backed up by valid nerfs. HELL I think this is one of the more balanced codex to date!
Remember this is a GAMES WORKSHOP GAME! You get your cake but you cant eat it remember. The fact that Tau is not a great all round army (when not talking about assault) is amazing!
On to the mathhammer. Good on you. Great job finding the likely probability of things. That is fine, really it is. Have you considered that probability is an ongoing thing throughout an entire game? Lets take a few games I played. As a Tau, Blood Angels, and 'Nid player I have played games where things roll my way when needed. I have seen terminators fail 8 out of 10 2+ saves, I have seen Rhino's survive 9 old Broadside attacks with nothing more loss than a weapon or getting immobolized, only to repair that in the next turn.
This is a game where random chance and Luck are a thing. You can dress it up, call it what you like but it changes nothing in the end. All probability is is the chance of something happening. If you say a thing could happen, it will at a point.
As for the kool-aid. . . MMMMMMMMMMMMMM TASTES GREAT!
Don't be too angry dude, people complain like this with every codex that has come out.
Had a look at the background section of the book and read most of it. And I must say I am very pleased.
Vetrock did a great job rewriting and extending all info and developing it further respectfully.
Tau are neither "peace loving hippies" nor "space nazis with a better PR". Both "no meatshields" and "conquering planets" are in, the first ethereal appearance is not "knocking everyone out with pheromones" anymore but much more realistic. The timeline paradox of Puretide/Farsight/Shadowsun is resolved logically. The way planets are integrated into the Tau Empire is detailed, new Xeno allies introduced with names and a few details (in background only). Taros campaign mentioned several times. Nice addition is small pics of Tau Space Stations needed for colonisation. Only minor things I am not happy with, like Darkstriders name and Earth caste experimenting with bad stuff
Spoiler:
(like trying to use Supernovas as weapons against planet systems)
Lysenis wrote: So I am over here laughing my a$$ off at all these naysayers. Each one seems to be looking at individual aspects per section and calling them bad. Cool go right ahead. Have your negative outlook, its fun to watch and laugh as you are proven wrong over and over and over and over (hell you get my point)
First off, why does it even matter with the changes? Just because you lost your favorite toy and LOVED being called cheese means nothing. Get over it, this codex is not 5th ed Chaos, you are getting SERIOUS improvements that are backed up by valid nerfs. HELL I think this is one of the more balanced codex to date!
Remember this is a GAMES WORKSHOP GAME! You get your cake but you cant eat it remember. The fact that Tau is not a great all round army (when not talking about assault) is amazing!
On to the mathhammer. Good on you. Great job finding the likely probability of things. That is fine, really it is. Have you considered that probability is an ongoing thing throughout an entire game? Lets take a few games I played. As a Tau, Blood Angels, and 'Nid player I have played games where things roll my way when needed. I have seen terminators fail 8 out of 10 2+ saves, I have seen Rhino's survive 9 old Broadside attacks with nothing more loss than a weapon or getting immobolized, only to repair that in the next turn.
This is a game where random chance and Luck are a thing. You can dress it up, call it what you like but it changes nothing in the end. All probability is is the chance of something happening. If you say a thing could happen, it will at a point.
As for the kool-aid. . . MMMMMMMMMMMMMM TASTES GREAT!
Don't be too angry dude, people complain like this with every codex that has come out.
There is no anger, I am laughing at all of this. People are so worked up for nothing imho.
Lysenis wrote: So I am over here laughing my a$$ off at all these naysayers. Each one seems to be looking at individual aspects per section and calling them bad. Cool go right ahead. Have your negative outlook, its fun to watch and laugh as you are proven wrong over and over and over and over (hell you get my point)
First off, why does it even matter with the changes? Just because you lost your favorite toy and LOVED being called cheese means nothing. Get over it, this codex is not 5th ed Chaos, you are getting SERIOUS improvements that are backed up by valid nerfs. HELL I think this is one of the more balanced codex to date!
Remember this is a GAMES WORKSHOP GAME! You get your cake but you cant eat it remember. The fact that Tau is not a great all round army (when not talking about assault) is amazing!
On to the mathhammer. Good on you. Great job finding the likely probability of things. That is fine, really it is. Have you considered that probability is an ongoing thing throughout an entire game? Lets take a few games I played. As a Tau, Blood Angels, and 'Nid player I have played games where things roll my way when needed. I have seen terminators fail 8 out of 10 2+ saves, I have seen Rhino's survive 9 old Broadside attacks with nothing more loss than a weapon or getting immobolized, only to repair that in the next turn.
This is a game where random chance and Luck are a thing. You can dress it up, call it what you like but it changes nothing in the end. All probability is is the chance of something happening. If you say a thing could happen, it will at a point.
As for the kool-aid. . . MMMMMMMMMMMMMM TASTES GREAT!
Don't be too angry dude, people complain like this with every codex that has come out.
He doesn't seem angry to me, he just seems like he's telling off the naysayers as a bunch of idiots, and I'm inclined to agree.
As for a point of discussion: The D-pod took a bit of a points increase, but if it retains the same stats is it justified? It was a bit insane the amount of value for points you were getting. I know some people are high on vehicle-less tau but I'm still curious about how people feel about that.
Kroothawk wrote: Had a look at the background section of the book and read most of it. And I must say I am very pleased.
Vetrock did a great job rewriting and extending all info and developing it further respectfully.
Tau are neither "peace loving hippies" nor "space nazis with a better PR". Both "no meatshields" and "conquering planets" are in, the first ethereal appearance is not "knocking everyone out with pheromones" anymore but much more realistic. The timeline paradox of Puretide/Farsight/Shadowsun is resolved logically. The way planets are integrated into the Tau Empire is detailed, new Xeno allies introduced with names and a few details (in background only). Taros campaign mentioned several times. Nice addition is small pics of Tau Space Stations needed for colonisation. Only minor things I am not happy with, like Darkstriders name and Earth caste experimenting with bad stuff
Spoiler:
(like trying to use Supernovas as weapons against planet systems)
Kroothawk wrote: Had a look at the background section of the book and read most of it. And I must say I am very pleased.
Vetrock did a great job rewriting and extending all info and developing it further respectfully.
Tau are neither "peace loving hippies" nor "space nazis with a better PR". Both "no meatshields" and "conquering planets" are in, the first ethereal appearance is not "knocking everyone out with pheromones" anymore but much more realistic. The timeline paradox of Puretide/Farsight/Shadowsun is resolved logically. The way planets are integrated into the Tau Empire is detailed, new Xeno allies introduced with names and a few details (in background only). Taros campaign mentioned several times. Nice addition is small pics of Tau Space Stations needed for colonisation. Only minor things I am not happy with, like Darkstriders name and Earth caste experimenting with bad stuff
Spoiler:
(like trying to use Supernovas as weapons against planet systems)
So all in all
Can you expand on what you read? I'd really like to know how ethereals "control" society as well as how they are represented compared to the IoM.
Looks like Bodyguard are still stuck at 2 per Commander for a maximum of 3. Contradicts early post that they went up to a maximum of 4.
That's a real shame. Elites are just too crowded. They should have moved Stealth to FA or allowed a HQ to unlock suits as troops to free up the log jam.
Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
As for a point of discussion: The D-pod took a bit of a points increase, but if it retains the same stats is it justified? It was a bit insane the amount of value for points you were getting. I know some people are high on vehicle-less tau but I'm still curious about how people feel about that.
I actually really like the Tau vehicles. They high-tech skimmers really help round out the army and go a long way to ensuring that the Tau are not just about the battlesuits. The multitrackers in particular make hammerheads a real joy to play. Its one of the reasons that I consider the loss of the vehicle multitracker as one of the worst changes in the new codex (if it is true), as they will no longer be able to keep pace with our suits.
Therion wrote: Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
Repeating myself what I wrote reading from my codex (because anyone who says markerlights are rubish deserves to be slapped ) :
Each hit on a target adds a markerlight "token". Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots that at a target that has one or more markerligt counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight counters. A unit may combine any number of markerlight abilities providing that there are enough counters:
- Pinpoint (1+ markerlights) - All models firing at the target as part of this shooting attack gain a bonus to their BS for the duration of the shooting attack.. The size of this bonus is equal to the number of markerlight counters expended on this ability. Pinpoint can increase the BS of Snap Shots and overwatch.
- Scour: (2 markerlights) all weapons fired at the target as part of this shooting attack gain the ignore cover special rule.
- Seeker (1+ markerlight) - For each markerlight spent on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile (if it has one) in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire. A seeker missile fired in this way:
- Does not need line of sight
- Must be fire at the same target as the vehicle's other weapons
- IS resolved at BS 5
- Has the Ignore Cover special rule
- Does not reduce the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at it's full BS - Does count towards the limit of 2 missiles that a flyer can fire each turn.
In the end, it is left open how they "control" the society, the few Imperial "tests" coming to no conclusion, as test objects are rare While at some point, the "could order suicide" is in, at other times, the savanna tribes (later Fire Warriors) take longest to be convinced to stop Mont'au. There is no automatism like mind control, although later on a mind control worm species makes friends with ethereals In the first meeting, it is more "authority" and "convincing the leaders in a meeting" than magic. Although where ethereals came from is again left open.
Aliens are indeed respected, but Tau are first among equals. Tau have patience in talking other governments in joining the Tau Empire, sometimes for decades. If a military operation is necessary, after it tau are "surprisingly civil". But they definitely expand their influence.
As said, everything is expanded, more subtle, more "realistic" and worth reading.
On Earth caste:
Spoiler:
They accidentally transform suns to supernovas in their attempt to gain energy. They then contemplate, how these supernovas can be used as missiles against other planetary systems
4oursword wrote: The thing that hugely annoys me is Darkstrider's name: El'Myamoto. Seems a little too overt of a asian reference to have an actual Japanese name. Just me who feels like this?
Yeah, it's like they mixed Spanish and Japanese. El=the; Miyamoto could be a reference to Miyamoto Musashi, the great swordsman. Miyamoto could mean "base of a shrine".
Bobug wrote: I have a feeling the advanced targeting system will be the vehicle multi tracker, just a new name to avoid confusion
From the codex: Advanced Targetting system - Any To Hit roll of a 6 made in the Shooting phase by a model with an advanced targetting system is a Precision Shot. If a character has an advanced targetting system, any To Hit roll of 5 or 6 they make in the Shooting Phase is a Precision Shot.
Therion wrote: Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
Really?
I honestly disagree with you massively - 2 ML negate ALL cover. Not take it down by 1 Cover per hit. 2 MLS take away that 4+ ADL save completely or 3+ Fortification save. Gone to ground behind ADL??? I don't care - I only need to spend 2 ML instead of 5 (as per old Codex if I remember). This is immense IMO.
I love how the Neuroweb System Jammer and the Puretide Engram Neurochip are a way of almost having a sort of spell casting, but without all that pesky warp crap, and (in case of the Puretide Neurochip, we get to choose the effect!)
4oursword wrote: The thing that hugely annoys me is Darkstrider's name: El'Myamoto. Seems a little too overt of a asian reference to have an actual Japanese name. Just me who feels like this?
Yeah, it's like they mixed Spanish and Japanese. El=the; Miyamoto could be a reference to Miyamoto Musashi, the great swordsman. Miyamoto could mean "base of a shrine".
My wife, who is Japanese, laughed.
Considering the only thing original in the way GW names its characters is the sheer stupidity and ridiculousness of it, I'm fairly certain this is a Musashi pun and they just added the EL as a Shas'EL/Tau reference. The other option is they thought Lion'EL Johnson as a really funny and clever version (zz) of Lionel Johnson needed a 2013 version in EL'Miyamoto.
Therion wrote: Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
Really?
I honestly disagree with you massively - 2 ML negate ALL cover. Not take it down by 1 Cover per hit. 2 MLS take away that 4+ ADL save completely or 3+ Fortification save. Gone to ground behind ADL??? I don't care - I only need to spend 2 ML instead of 5 (as per old Codex if I remember). This is immense IMO.
Agreed. I was willing to use pathfinders in the old codex when I had to buy a devilfish for them they couldn't use. And I would happily spend markerlight tokens at a 1 for 1 to kill coversaves. With the new rules for markerlights they just got even better. The only thing I am worried about now is keeping my pathfinders alive with only 5+ armor saves.
Now 1 100pt pathfinder squads average shooting will allow a 200pt unit to fire at bs 5 and ignores cover. If i am buffing firewarriors vs marines that same squad will cover 2 squads of firewarriors shooting.
Therion wrote: Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
Really?
I honestly disagree with you massively - 2 ML negate ALL cover. Not take it down by 1 Cover per hit. 2 MLS take away that 4+ ADL save completely or 3+ Fortification save. Gone to ground behind ADL??? I don't care - I only need to spend 2 ML instead of 5 (as per old Codex if I remember). This is immense IMO.
Sure. Then one of your Tau units ignores the target's cover saves entirely for one shooting phase. Unless marker lights are dirt cheap / near free I wouldn't really call that a force multiplier / a good synergy element at all. It's all in the points costs of course whether marker lights are a point sink or something really necessary.
Therion wrote: Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
Really?
I honestly disagree with you massively - 2 ML negate ALL cover. Not take it down by 1 Cover per hit. 2 MLS take away that 4+ ADL save completely or 3+ Fortification save. Gone to ground behind ADL??? I don't care - I only need to spend 2 ML instead of 5 (as per old Codex if I remember). This is immense IMO.
Sure. Then one of your Tau units ignores the target's cover saves entirely for one shooting phase. Unless marker lights are dirt cheap / near free I wouldn't really call that a force multiplier / a good synergy element at all. It's all in the points costs of course whether marker lights are a point sink or something really necessary.
When a 100pt unit doubles the firepower of a 200pt unit I would say that is a force multiplier.
The IG I play against love their ADL lines and going to ground behind them for a god damn 2+ save then issuing "Get Back in The Fight" afterwards. VERY ANNOYING.
mothman_451 wrote: Pathfinders are 11p each, and have Scouts, 3 can switch pulse carbine for ion rifle (10) or rail rifle (15)
I have nothing to say other than: Oh my, this is fantastic! a price reduction!
(some are going to voice opinions that the -1 armor means they should have been reduced even less... I disagree.)
Edit for brief question:
Markerlights are still heavy 1, arn't they?
If they are, my idea of outflanking and markerlighting unsuspecting enemies enemies in the same turn is gone... oh well.
Sorry for repeatedly bringing up this issue, but any word on whether the Ethereal's "Stay Calm" rule affects all Kroots? The Spanish translation wasn't really clear. Confirmation from an english codex would be nice.
tetrisphreak wrote: Also seems like Kroot are able to utilize markers as well. I wonder if ethereal buffs effect them too
SWEET!!! Markerlights increasing Kroot's ballistic skill??? Mass Kroots is the way to go.
mothman_451 wrote: Pathfinders are 11p each, and have Scouts, 3 can switch pulse carbine for ion rifle (10) or rail rifle (15)
I have nothing to say other than: Oh my, this is fantastic! a price reduction!
(some are going to voice opinions that the -1 armor means they should have been reduced even less... I disagree.)
Edit for brief question:
Markerlights are still heavy 1, arn't they?
If they are, my idea of outflanking and markerlighting unsuspecting enemies enemies in the same turn is gone... oh well.
They can also buff Snap Shots and Defensive Fire?!?!? Holy cow bells.
unfortunately not since the set modifier is still applied last, so even if you use 4 tokens, you still get set back to BS1 for a snap shot :/ bad times
I cant seem to see the "markerlights cannot affect other markerlights" rule anymore.... hmmm
also whats the full wording for the disruption pod?
Bobug wrote: unfortunately not since the set modifier is still applied last, so even if you use 4 tokens, you still get set back to BS1 for a snap shot :/ bad times
I cant seem to see the "markerlights cannot affect other markerlights" rule anymore.... hmmm
How come it's stated in the rules? Maybe we get a special break? ;-)
Bobug wrote:
I have a feeling the advanced targeting system will be the vehicle multi tracker, just a new name to avoid confusion
it gives the vehicle the precision shot special rule.
That well and truly sucks. I don't understand why they felt the need to remove vehicle multitrackers.
Sorry for repeatedly bringing up this issue, but any word on whether the Ethereal's "Stay Calm" rule affects all Kroots? The Spanish translation wasn't really clear. Confirmation from an english codex would be nice.
tetrisphreak wrote: Also seems like Kroot are able to utilize markers as well. I wonder if ethereal buffs effect them too
SWEET!!! Markerlights increasing Kroot's ballistic skill??? Mass Kroots is the way to go.
All ethereal effects are valid for all friendly (for invocations add non-vehicle) units from this Codex within 12", so include Kroot.
Markerlight effects can be used by all units from this Codex, just not the unit that shot the markerlight.
From the little bit I have seen from leaks it looks like the tau have picked up some interesting new toys, but are far more dependant upon markerlights for accurate shooting.
My favorite unit was the shas'O w/ bodyguards with targeting arrays.
Sorry for repeatedly bringing up this issue, but any word on whether the Ethereal's "Stay Calm" rule affects all Kroots? The Spanish translation wasn't really clear. Confirmation from an english codex would be nice.
tetrisphreak wrote: Also seems like Kroot are able to utilize markers as well. I wonder if ethereal buffs effect them too
SWEET!!! Markerlights increasing Kroot's ballistic skill??? Mass Kroots is the way to go.
All ethereal effects are valid for all friendly (for invocations add non-vehicle) units from this Codex within 12", so include Kroot.
Markerlight effects can be used by all units from this Codex, just not the unit that shot the markerlight.
Wow. My 56 Kroot are now going to be sniping, shooty bad-arses. :-)
Sorry for repeatedly bringing up this issue, but any word on whether the Ethereal's "Stay Calm" rule affects all Kroots? The Spanish translation wasn't really clear. Confirmation from an english codex would be nice.
tetrisphreak wrote: Also seems like Kroot are able to utilize markers as well. I wonder if ethereal buffs effect them too
SWEET!!! Markerlights increasing Kroot's ballistic skill??? Mass Kroots is the way to go.
All ethereal effects are valid for all friendly (for invocations add non-vehicle) units from this Codex within 12", so include Kroot.
Markerlight effects can be used by all units from this Codex, just not the unit that shot the markerlight.
That last sentance you said....
So squads can utilize their markerlights shot by someone in their own squad? So all markerlights are now "networked"?
I ask because that's really the reason I never gave my shas'ui FW leaders markerlights, their own squad could never benefit from it. So can their own squads benefit from it now?
So you want broadsides to be the total bane of anything that flies?
You take two missile-sides with missile drones and the skyfire upgrade. Now give the leader the special character upgrade of Jun'nami (neural chip) and choose tank hunter.
Muhahahaha. Ok, so your not twin linked, but those that do hit get to reroll all failed penetration rolls. Your going to strip HPs left and right against most anything. You can even do this with railgun sides as long as you also take the missile drones it still works out pretty damn well.
This of course also works well against any ground light armor. Leaving you to take two railheads to concentrate on any AV14 all around that might show up. Which if you take the tank commander on one of them, its now a pretty good chance of getting those shots where they need to go.
Sorry for repeatedly bringing up this issue, but any word on whether the Ethereal's "Stay Calm" rule affects all Kroots? The Spanish translation wasn't really clear. Confirmation from an english codex would be nice.
tetrisphreak wrote: Also seems like Kroot are able to utilize markers as well. I wonder if ethereal buffs effect them too
SWEET!!! Markerlights increasing Kroot's ballistic skill??? Mass Kroots is the way to go.
All ethereal effects are valid for all friendly (for invocations add non-vehicle) units from this Codex within 12", so include Kroot.
Markerlight effects can be used by all units from this Codex, just not the unit that shot the markerlight.
That last sentance you said....
So squads can utilize their markerlights shot by someone in their own squad? So all markerlights are now "networked"?
I ask because that's really the reason I never gave my shas'ui FW leaders markerlights, their own squad could never benefit from it. So can their own squads benefit from it now?
I don't think Pathfinder Markerlights are networked but I would imagine all the ones you can stick on a team leader will be.
Medium of Death wrote: I take it Firewarriors still only have access to Pulse Rifles and Carbines? No special weapons or drones like the Pathfinders?
Also, what's looking better for this codex; rifles or carbines?
Eh... hard to say, carbines have assault 2, 18". They also have Pinning.
on the other hand, rifles have rapid fire 30", 2 shots at 15".
As of now, I'd say Rifles have a slight advantage, but both are pretty damn good. If you play agressive and against teams that are vulnerable to leadership saves, carbines may be better. If you play defensively or against things that laugh at leadership values, rifles maybe?
As seeing that the drone controller is listed under support systems in the picture could some one with a book confirm exactly what it does? my craving for missile stealth cloud is insatiable.
Desubot wrote: As seeing that the drone controller is listed under support systems in the picture could some one with a book confirm exactly what it does? my craving for missile stealth cloud is insatiable.
It allows the drones purchased by the unit to fire at the controllers BS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gr1m_dan wrote: Again - we have two versions of "Advanced Targeting Array" - one for the Battlesuits and one for the Vehicles.
We already have multi-trackers for the Battlesuits so could these be the Target Array we are missing?
Nope. Just gives precision shots. If the model is already a precision shooter (character) then it can precision shot on to hits of 5 and 6.
gr1m_dan wrote: Again - we have two versions of "Advanced Targeting Array" - one for the Battlesuits and one for the Vehicles.
We already have multi-trackers for the Battlesuits so could these be the Target Array we are missing?
No, apparently it gives Precision shot. Surely it would cost more if it was +1BS.
So Targeting Array really IS removed. This is really lame, perhaps biggest kick in the teeth for me. I'm not going to be very interested about vehicles if they are just BS3, and huge amount of fun from battlesuit equipping is removed. Meh.
Therion wrote: Looks pretty clear from the pictures that a marker light hit (counter) can be used (expended / removed after use) by a Tau unit which is shooting at the said target to grant itself special abilities for example +1 BS, and doesn't give a flat +1 BS to every Tau unit firing at the lit target unit. A single Tau unit ignoring the cover saves of one enemy target unit seems to cost 2 marker light counters. Marker lights seem quite rubbishy.
Really?
I honestly disagree with you massively - 2 ML negate ALL cover. Not take it down by 1 Cover per hit. 2 MLS take away that 4+ ADL save completely or 3+ Fortification save. Gone to ground behind ADL??? I don't care - I only need to spend 2 ML instead of 5 (as per old Codex if I remember). This is immense IMO.
Sure. Then one of your Tau units ignores the target's cover saves entirely for one shooting phase. Unless marker lights are dirt cheap / near free I wouldn't really call that a force multiplier / a good synergy element at all. It's all in the points costs of course whether marker lights are a point sink or something really necessary.
Then I have to say sir, that your comment shows a consideralbe lack of experience in playing tau in the previous book.
Marker lights were very essential, and may be even more so in this book. Why? because railguns are based on quality rather than quantity.
A hammer head is not twin linked, and you don't have multi-meltas running around everywhere and missiles as an option for every unit.
A railgun round HAS to hit, and you don't want a cover save messing it up. Markerlights enabled this in the old book.
Now that we have fewer S10 shots - they are even more critical (note, the volume of S7 may or may not help this - ask me a year).
This became even MORE important in 6th...with jink saves, and vehicles getting cover easier.
I play tau - a lot. They have been my primary army all through 5th and 6th edition, at most tourney's I am "the tau guy" because I ran tau when everyone was "counts as" for space wolves and grey knights (I retired my GK when the book dropped - they were embarassing) - and I did very well with them (got 3rd place overall in one large event, and 3rd genearl in a league).
So, with all due resepct, I am just going to say that the new markers are far from rubbish - they are actually better (and perhaps more useful) than before.
Hmm...to be honest I only ever used the TA on very few units so it's not a great loss for me.
Twin Linked Plasma is now 20 points which is frankly madness. Amazed that TL Missile Pod is the same but given how many missiles we can put out I'm guessing Plasma/Fusion suits will be the way forward. TL Plasma and a Fusion? Ouch!
Is TL BS3 better then BS4?
Because now it costs 10 points cheaper for TL Plasma plus no TA.
Because now it costs 10 points cheaper for TL Plasma plus no TA.
Yes, because TL BS3 will hit 75% of the time. Straight up BS4 only hits 66% of the time.
Which is why I think they more or less removed the traditional target lock. Now that you can get TL weapon + another weapon for about the same price as before (and still shoot both) it became a bit of a wash, but TLBS 4 would probably be a bit broken if taken in mass.
The loss of the TA really bothers me. Again we see the weird idea that Tau don't go above BS3 until we get to HQ levels. For a precision shooting army it's silly and will make pathfinders (or tetras in my case) more of a necessity if you're wanting multiple weapons in a squad.
Savageconvoy wrote: The loss of the TA really bothers me. Again we see the weird idea that Tau don't go above BS3 until we get to HQ levels. For a precision shooting army it's silly and will make pathfinders (or tetras in my case) more of a necessity if you're wanting multiple weapons in a squad.
Granted but given that we have A LOT of places to get MLs from now and that Marker drones got significantly cheaper plus MLs for Team Leaders are 5pts (sure I read that right) we will have quite a good output without just having to relay on Pathfinders.
Now we have 10pt cheaper TL Plasma Rifles that frees up a slot for something nifty and new. If you want to really go to town on a squad of MEQ for example then get some ML in to them plus lots of TL Rapid fire plasma rifles at BS4/5 ?
Yes, because TL BS3 will hit 75% of the time. Straight up BS4 only hits 66% of the time.
Which is why I think they more or less removed the traditional target lock. Now that you can get TL weapon + another weapon for about the same price as before (and still shoot both) it became a bit of a wash, but TLBS 4 would probably be a bit broken if taken in mass.
So maybe make it so it can't be taken - like in, oh, in the previous codex?
Really, Battlesuit armoury was one and only thing which was right in the old book. All they had to do was not touch it, but now, it's totally dumbed down. Not to mention that there is just one generic commander, no more Shas'El/Shas'O.
Oh, and what about all those who assured that losing Railguns is no big deal since new & improved Fusion Blaster will take care of your anti-armour needs? Sorry, they're all BS3. Piranha is even more worthless now - I can't figure why I could possibly want to field one. Devilfish's new & improved firepower is also wasted now.
For us Mech Tau lovers, the lack of a multitracker equivalent on our vehicles is going to hurt. A lot. Not being able to fire as a fast vehicle is really going to put a dent in our mobility. BSF are cheaper, but with DPods only getting a +1 cover save, that makes our survivability worse, and at a greater cost.
That said, getting a Point Defense System for DFish almost makes sense, as all their weapons are S5 or less. This would let them support their passengers close-in after they got dropped off, and would significantly increase the available Supporting Fire.
Weapon systems on Crisis look to be priced so that things even out to the old suit costs, more or less, for the common weapon loadouts. Some things got cheaper, but overall, roughly the same. The low price of twin-linked weapons definitely compensates for BS3 and lack of TAs. One thing I think a lot of folks may be overlooking is that since Flamers are only 5pts each, and you can take 3 weapons on a suit, it almost makes sense to throw a few in each unit of Crisis as charge deterrents. Not to mention their utility in clearing squishies off of objectives so that your troops can waltz in like they own the place... because they do.
Yes, because TL BS3 will hit 75% of the time. Straight up BS4 only hits 66% of the time.
Which is why I think they more or less removed the traditional target lock. Now that you can get TL weapon + another weapon for about the same price as before (and still shoot both) it became a bit of a wash, but TLBS 4 would probably be a bit broken if taken in mass.
So maybe make it so it can't be taken - like in, oh, in the previous codex?
Really, Battlesuit armoury was one and only thing which was right in the old book. All they had to do was not touch it, but now, it's totally dumbed down. Not to mention that there is just one generic commander, no more Shas'El/Shas'O.
Oh, and what about all those who assured that losing Railguns is no big deal since new & improved Fusion Blaster will take care of your anti-armour needs? Sorry, they're all BS3. Piranha is even more worthless now - I can't figure why I could possibly want to field one. Devilfish's new & improved firepower is also wasted now.
Another person that makes me lol's
Really? The book sucks guys, no one needs to buy it. Everyone knows this *rolls eyes* Come on now. You are telling me that they suck before the dex is even released offically. Are all of you naysayers forgetting that this is a game, on a table, with terrain, and you use dice, to you know, roll and stuff.
This is what I see. I see balanced point reductions, great improvements that were CRIED for with great gnashing of teeth in the last edition. I hear of GREAT fluff (which is usually so rare that I almost cried for joy). I see more options in an army that was loved for its great models and the amount of versatility that came with those models. I also see AMAZING Synergy.
As for your cry on the BS of the units. Boo Hoo! You have marker lights! You have access to a system that lets you BOOST your BS to amazing heights, or ignore cover COMPLETLY! 2 ML's and the Skimmer, or flyer no longer gets thier save. Seems big to me!
So please please PLEASE continue to naysay. I beg of you. Please continue so I can continue to laugh!
Nice thing about having a finesse army that requires skill? It usually helps keep the bandwagon kiddies away.
Not that I'm dissing easy-to-learn-and-easy-to-master armies, I love me a good space marine ally, but having an army that is great if you know what to do, and punishing if you screw up is just so satisfying to play.
Because now it costs 10 points cheaper for TL Plasma plus no TA.
Yes, because TL BS3 will hit 75% of the time. Straight up BS4 only hits 66% of the time.
Which is why I think they more or less removed the traditional target lock. Now that you can get TL weapon + another weapon for about the same price as before (and still shoot both) it became a bit of a wash, but TLBS 4 would probably be a bit broken if taken in mass.
This actually makes me feel a little better about the lack of targetting arrays.
How much are the new markerdrones supposed to be now?
Really? The book sucks guys, no one needs to buy it. Everyone knows this *rolls eyes* Come on now. You are telling me that they suck before the dex is even released offically. Are all of you naysayers forgetting that this is a game, on a table, with terrain, and you use dice, to you know, roll and stuff.
This is what I see. I see balanced point reductions, great improvements that were CRIED for with great gnashing of teeth in the last edition. I hear of GREAT fluff (which is usually so rare that I almost cried for joy). I see more options in an army that was loved for its great models and the amount of versatility that came with those models. I also see AMAZING Synergy.
As for your cry on the BS of the units. Boo Hoo! You have marker lights! You have access to a system that lets you BOOST your BS to amazing heights, or ignore cover COMPLETLY! 2 ML's and the Skimmer, or flyer no longer gets thier save. Seems big to me!
I don't know if you realized, but we had markerlights in the old book too. They're not some magical new toy. By all accounts they work more or less like they did in the old book, and are slightly cheaper. They are not a revolution.
So you see, in the past we could increase BS by buying suitable wargear, or using Markerlights. Now, it's just using Markerlight. Sorry, but there is no way you will convince me that's progress.
I don't CARE how powerful the army is. I always spoke against those who demanded Tau to have BS4 base, because that would have just dumbed down the army. That's what I care for - I want army which is fun to customize & play. It doesn't look like the new book offers as much interesting options as the old one. Basically it seems like they gave it the Tyranid treatment.
mothman_451 wrote: Pathfinders are 11p each, and have Scouts, 3 can switch pulse carbine for ion rifle (10) or rail rifle (15)
I have nothing to say other than: Oh my, this is fantastic! a price reduction!
(some are going to voice opinions that the -1 armor means they should have been reduced even less... I disagree.)
Edit for brief question:
Markerlights are still heavy 1, arn't they?
If they are, my idea of outflanking and markerlighting unsuspecting enemies enemies in the same turn is gone... oh well.
Dont marker drones count as relentless? you could still use that
Also, dont know if i missed this, are broadsides also relentless? because some basic mobility without taking a hardpoint would be something to consider
I'm thinking of running a unit of 3 crisis suits with TL plasma, fusion, flamer.
Now that truly is a jack of all trades unit. Against horde you have 3 flamers and 6 TL plasma shots. And since your close if they charge you they get overwatched by 3D3 auto hit flamer shots and 6 TL plasma shots. Thats going to hurt even more.
Against MEQ/TEQ you have 3 plasma and 3 fusion out to 18" and then a jump away to put you out counter charge range.
This seems like a pretty good utility knife unit. Missile pods on my old fireknifes can be found in many other places. I don't think they will be necessary on suits anymore.
BS4 base on suits really wouldn't have dumbed down the army at all. From a lore perspective it makes sense, as the people that get to use battlesuits are those who have earned the right to use them. Surely that experience and all the hi-tech gizmos in the suits would make them a little better at shooting. That can be done without dumbing down the army, that's the last thing i want to happen.
Really? The book sucks guys, no one needs to buy it. Everyone knows this *rolls eyes* Come on now. You are telling me that they suck before the dex is even released offically. Are all of you naysayers forgetting that this is a game, on a table, with terrain, and you use dice, to you know, roll and stuff.
This is what I see. I see balanced point reductions, great improvements that were CRIED for with great gnashing of teeth in the last edition. I hear of GREAT fluff (which is usually so rare that I almost cried for joy). I see more options in an army that was loved for its great models and the amount of versatility that came with those models. I also see AMAZING Synergy.
As for your cry on the BS of the units. Boo Hoo! You have marker lights! You have access to a system that lets you BOOST your BS to amazing heights, or ignore cover COMPLETLY! 2 ML's and the Skimmer, or flyer no longer gets thier save. Seems big to me!
I don't know if you realized, but we had markerlights in the old book too. They're not some magical new toy. By all accounts they work more or less like they did in the old book, and are slightly cheaper. They are not a revolution.
So you see, in the past we could increase BS by buying suitable wargear, or using Markerlights. Now, it's just using Markerlight. Sorry, but there is no way you will convince me that's progress.
I don't CARE how powerful the army is. I always spoke against those who demanded Tau to have BS4 base, because that would have just dumbed down the army. That's what I care for - I want army which is fun to customize & play. It doesn't look like the new book offers as much interesting options as the old one. Basically it seems like they gave it the Tyranid treatment.
Not slightly cheaper; massively. No more need to buy a devilfish for each set of markerlights you want. You can double the number of Lights in your list now and still not meet the previous cost. And on top of that, you have to spend them less now to get the same effect previously.
Not to mention we get armywide buffs like run and shoot, TL weapons for a squad if the leader opts out, tank hunting, PEIG, heavier rapidfire, etc... You're crying over nothing.
Rented Tritium wrote: By all means, don't play this book. I'd love for used models to stay cheap. If this book looks weak to you, don't bother with it.
I think after GK and Necrons people want to be that next stupidly overpowered army, and wont take no for an answer. Frankly, Tau has always been an army of skill and finesse to me, so i would rather not want the flavor of the month bandwagon coming over an all you can eat cheese fest. The last 3 codex releases have shown us that GW is not doing this anymore, and with any luck Matt Ward has been chained in a basement for his many unspeakable crimes to Warhammer. I actually want a balanced codex so i can play skillfully and tactically, and it presents me a challenge, but not an insurmountable hurdle like it was before.
Anybody with a codex see a limit on suit weapon systems? It seems to me making a weapon system twin linked is optional. This leads to possibly loading up suits with 2 of the same weapon to increase the number of shots.
Not slightly cheaper; massively. No more need to buy a devilfish for each set of markerlights you want. You can double the number of Lights in your list now and still not meet the previous cost. And on top of that, you have to spend them less now to get the same effect previously.
Not to mention we get armywide buffs like run and shoot, TL weapons for a squad if the leader opts out, tank hunting, PEIG, heavier rapidfire, etc... You're crying over nothing.
Hey, maybe I don't WANT to always play with huge Markerlight support? I thought this Codex was supposed to support many different playstyles?
I don't really care about the stuff you listed. It's not what for I started the army originally. I care about stuff which I liked in the old book, which was mostly removed. How exactly that's "crying over nothing"?
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Rented Tritium wrote: By all means, don't play this book. I'd love for used models to stay cheap. If this book looks weak to you, don't bother with it.
As I already explained, I don't really care about how "weak" it is. Otherwise I sure as heck would not have played Tau in 5th Edition.
Rented Tritium wrote: By all means, don't play this book. I'd love for used models to stay cheap. If this book looks weak to you, don't bother with it.
As I already explained, I don't really care about how "weak" it is. Otherwise I sure as heck would not have played Tau in 5th Edition.
Playing the new book and refusing to use markerlights will probably STILL be closer to what you want than the old dex ever was in 5th edition.
Couple of cry babies on here. Jjjeeeeeezzzzz. Yes higher bs with experience makes sense. Honestly str 9 railgun on broadsides and 11 on hammerhead would have been nice. We will adapt and over come people. Maybe if we get some actual play experience instead of mathhammer people will quit crying. 6 years no update. They didn't nerf everything relax and wait 3 more days.
tetrisphreak wrote: Anybody with a codex see a limit on suit weapon systems? It seems to me making a weapon system twin linked is optional. This leads to possibly loading up suits with 2 of the same weapon to increase the number of shots.
A twin-linked weapon still takes two weapon slots. A commander can have a total of 4 weapon and/or support system slots but all other Crisis Suits can only have 3. So I guess, in theory you could have a commander with two twin-linked weapon systems, but then he would have no other gear.
Source: Faeit has some English codex pages up.
EDIT: Are you asking if the decision to make it twin-linked is optional, i.e you can take two plasma rifles for 2x points or one twin-linked plasma rifle for the discounted cost? The wording implies that you can't do that; taking two of the same weapon simply makes it a twin-linked weapon.
Rented Tritium wrote: By all means, don't play this book. I'd love for used models to stay cheap. If this book looks weak to you, don't bother with it.
As I already explained, I don't really care about how "weak" it is. Otherwise I sure as heck would not have played Tau in 5th Edition.
Playing the new book and refusing to use markerlights will probably STILL be closer to what you want than the old dex ever was in 5th edition.
Thankfully, we're in 6th edition now!
For starters, if the tanks really lose the mobility, that's almost a deal-breaker for me right away. New Battlesuit armoury simply looks like much less fun than the old one, and I'd need to stick more weapons to my suits to take advantage of more TL weapons, which I don't want to do. Not big on Kroot nerf either - sure, they weren't exactly great in assault or anything, but sometimes it was nice to be able to assault at least Guardsmen or something. Current Kroot are no better in combat than Fire Warriors, so what point do they serve, unless you equip them with sniper rifles?
Well, Vespid got better, at least hooray for that, I guess.
Materia_Master wrote: Nice thing about having a finesse army that requires skill? It usually helps keep the bandwagon kiddies away.
Not that I'm dissing easy-to-learn-and-easy-to-master armies, I love me a good space marine ally, but having an army that is great if you know what to do, and punishing if you screw up is just so satisfying to play.
Sooo much THIS!^^ lol I love the Tau and Ill be glad to see a smaller bandwagon than the usual flavor of the month
I am sad to see targeting array go however, getting my stealth fusion to connect was a pain enough with BS4......and stealths are a unit that are often where others(like those with markerlights) dont have LoS so that seems like a nerf.....but 24 points for 2 marker drones MAY make up for it a little.....if they are networked.....with a drone controller.... lol
No Target Arrays and no Vehicle Multi-trackers do more damage to my army plans than Stength 8 Broadside Railguns, but still I am overall quite positive about this 'dex and have literally been cackling in joy over some of the things I've seen.
tetrisphreak wrote: Anybody with a codex see a limit on suit weapon systems? It seems to me making a weapon system twin linked is optional. This leads to possibly loading up suits with 2 of the same weapon to increase the number of shots.
"Support Systems"
up to 3 on the XV8
1 on the Stealth Suits\1 on the Riptide
1 on the Broadsides
I am sad to see targeting array go however, getting my stealth fusion to connect was a pain enough with BS4......and stealths are a unit that are often where others(like those with markerlights) dont have LoS so that seems like a nerf.....but 24 points for 2 marker drones MAY make up for it a little.....if they are networked.....with a drone controller.... lol
Marker Drones are lot cheaper, but they are also only BS2. You have to take bunch of them. Is their Markerlight Networked? I was sure they were going to remove distinction between regular and Networked Markerlights, but it remains.
Stealth teams were always fun to play, but horribly inefficient. They are almost same, which is surprising. Well, their weapons are better now and with cheaper drones, maybe Stealth Marker team becomes viable. Bummer they can't take Plasma rifle. Fusion was always too unreliable to put on expensive & fragile Stealth suits.
The drone contoller is suppose to allow drones to fire at the controllers bs, so that may make stealth marker teams a little better, and the squad leader can take a marker too
Well I just got my riptide and my codex on pre-order.
To bad it will be arriving in a week. But i got a good deal.
gives me time to paint up the last crisis suit i have and give squad markings to all my suits.
The kroot nerf angers me. The other changes seem more or less reasonable and some of them interesting. I like improved carbines and pathfinders on foot a great deal. I hadn't planned on buying the codex and playing tau in the next few years, (or competitive 40K for that matter) but it is somewhat tempting now.
Well I have a limited edition codex and Commander Farsight on preorder... now to decide if I should buy a shiny Riptide or get the more logical units first like Firewarriors and stuff =(
Broadsides are NOT slow and purposeful, nor are they relentless. No options for wargear to address that either. However markerlights work when snap shooting and over watch, so broadsides can relocate when absolutely necessary without being completely neutered, as long as some markers are available.
Riptide seems a bit too risky to use the nova reactor. Seeing as you have a 33% chance to auto wound yourself and risk a gets hot weapon profile, I can see myself self destructing a lot.
kestral wrote: The kroot nerf angers me. The other changes seem more or less reasonable and some of them interesting. I like improved carbines and pathfinders on foot a great deal. I hadn't planned on buying the codex and playing tau in the next few years, (or competitive 40K for that matter) but it is somewhat tempting now.
You say nerf, is say -- cheap snipers!!!
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MechaBeast wrote: Riptide seems a bit too risky to use the nova reactor. Seeing as you have a 33% chance to auto wound yourself and risk a gets hot weapon profile, I can see myself self destructing a lot.
MechaBeast wrote: Riptide seems a bit too risky to use the nova reactor. Seeing as you have a 33% chance to auto wound yourself and risk a gets hot weapon profile, I can see myself self destructing a lot.
MechaBeast wrote: Riptide seems a bit too risky to use the nova reactor. Seeing as you have a 33% chance to auto wound yourself and risk a gets hot weapon profile, I can see myself self destructing a lot.
TL: DR I got lost for a few pages. Can someone politely tell me if we can have multiples of a weapon on a crisis and not have it automatically twin-linked?
Mathieu Raymond wrote: TL: DR I got lost for a few pages. Can someone politely tell me if we can have multiples of a weapon on a crisis and not have it automatically twin-linked?
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm eager to see how forgeworld handles xv-9 suits and tetras with all these new rules.
Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, please email forgeworld and as them to update the tau FW units.
Thank you.
Indeed, I'm becoming quite curious about what updates would do with the HH variant turrets. Wonder what the extended range on a fusion gun would translate to when they redo the rules for their fusionhead turret, among others. Aside from that, I'm starting to order XV89s for all my remaining Crisis suit needs. I just like the model a heck of a lot better, so rather than use the FW rules for "XV89", they'll be standard XV8s in my army.
For starters, if the tanks really lose the mobility, that's almost a deal-breaker for me right away.
I am with you on this one. All the other nerfs, the broadside railgun nerf, the loss of the targeting array, etc., I can accept. But this nerf just rubs me the wrong way, it makes many of the Imperial boxes more effective at firing on the move than our futuristic hovertanks. Almost makes me want to expand my Eldar army rather than my Tau army in anticipation of that new codex, at least then I would have hovertanks that can move at proper speeds as I can't imagine anyone screwing those up.
Someone with a dex confirm -- the blurry photo with decoy launchers seems to read vehicles get the 4++ save only from weapons with the ------ special rule. Looks like it potentially says interceptor? Would make the upgrade very specific and really only useful on flyers. It also explains why it only costs 1/5 the points as the new disruption pods.
Some of you guys are harshing my Tau buzz.
What I love about the new dex is that I feel like I'm shopping through a list of viable upgrades as I peruse the many options for each unit. That alone is has me excited.
This codex has taken 8 steps forward and maybe 2 steps back. Those who won with the old one will probably win more easily with the new one... And have a blast figuring out how it'll all fit together.
I think after tomorrow I'm going to avoid this thread. I want to discover the new Tau in peace and without all the Doomsdaying and Armageddoning.
I started this army because I wanted a finesse army. I hope Tau will still demand skill and synchronicity. I hope their complex playstyle chases away the GK player types.
Those who are disappointed, that is frustrating and I'm sorry. We all have the right to our expectations and I hope that having the Codex in hand dispels your worries.
I think the only thing that really bums me out from what I've heard is that the D-fish and Hammerhead can no longer fire as if fast. I always felt that it was pretty cool that we had the firepower of the Eldar/DE vehicles but not the extra fast movement.
Now, its a little better in that the SMS and gun drones have twin linked weapons now as you move 6" and shoot the primary gun at full BS and snap shot the SMS, or burst cannon with twin linking (or the gun drones shoot at full BS since they are passengers).
All it really does is prevent full bs shooting while moving 7-12" and you can only snap shot the primary weapon.
It pretty much just brings us back to 5th edition where S5 shooting was no longer defensive in nature. We enjoyed the movement buff for a year, but it looks like its back to our 5th edition ways.
It pretty much just brings us back to 5th edition where S5 shooting was no longer defensive in nature. We enjoyed the movement buff for a year, but it looks like its back to our 5th edition ways
Except that in 6th edition you could still opt to move 6-12" and fire the main gun, which is where most of the firepower came from anyway, which was actually a fairly typical mode of operation. I just don't understand the reasoning behind this particular nerf.
Are we POSITIVE that we've lost that degree of mobile firepower? It sounds to me a bit like that 24" pulse rifle rumor. (Which, by the way, would have REALLY bothered me, had it turned out true.)
I will be VERY happy if it turns out our vehicles can still fire as fast. Every inquiry into the matter seems to be to the contrary though. Guess I won't no for certain until the new codex comes out.
It pretty much just brings us back to 5th edition where S5 shooting was no longer defensive in nature. We enjoyed the movement buff for a year, but it looks like its back to our 5th edition ways
Except that in 6th edition you could still opt to move 6-12" and fire the main gun, which is where most of the firepower came from anyway, which was actually a fairly typical mode of operation. I just don't understand the reasoning behind this particular nerf.
You can still shoot the main gun in 6th edition when moving 6.1 - 12" Its just snap fire (so no submunition or overcharged ion cannon). I don't know if markerlights can effect snap fire rolls or not, they can apparently effect overwatch, so who knows exactly whats what yet.
I too feel that this "nerf" if true is a bit of an oversight rather than deliberate nerf as I can't even begin to think anyone was really complaining about Tau tanks shooting at fast rates while moving. It probably never will be FAQed back in but we can hope because there is precedent when the FAQ made huge changes to the CSM noise marines entry and that shows they are not against giving back options that were accidentally left out.
Pirahna's should still be fast vehicles so no real change to them anyway.
Just converted my first 3 (of many) missile drones. Pretty easy overall, I just can't wait to run 14 of these in my twin linked, ignoring cover, tank hunting, hit-and-run crisis bomb.
I already have missle drones I was posses to make some for SMS of my D-fish.
What im working on are my last 2 sniper drones.
I would like to see termies take me now.
The missile drone is something that I think has a lot of potential in thsi new codex. Can't wait to see all the equipment options and see exactly how the drone controller works and the other equipment options that let you give up your shooting for unit TL Missles and ignore cover saves.
Already thinking about fielding a unit of 3 stealth suits, one with a fusion blaster, leader with a drone controller and two missile drones.
With some luck I can use the recon drone in a devilfish to get to my enemies back table edge and bring on my stealthsuits from the back edge and fry some IG tanks from behind.
Even if only one model in a squad can get the interceptor, we would be the first army with multiple interceptors. We would be the ultimate bane to Cron Air.
Yeah. Scary huh?
Makes me scared for my fliers, thankfully with intercepter, markerlights dont take affect, because i bet they go goodbye at the end of your phase.
Savageconvoy wrote: Even if only one model in a squad can get the interceptor, we would be the first army with multiple interceptors. We would be the ultimate bane to Cron Air.
CronAir, coming to a theater near you!
On the flip side, Interceptors on Railheads AND Missileheads will be DEVASTATING for fliers. Even the Helldrake will be warey. . .
As someone who has been playing tau consistently since 5th edition (no, I did not put mine on the shelf like so many others) I am very excited about the new dex.
My complaints are actually very few, and mainly about the lack of FW models (yeah, I get it - I am a business guy, its an internal finance thing at gw...still sucks though).
We have a lot of info (and quite a bit missing) but we have enough to start thinking about what some of this means.
NOTE: The stuff I bring up, which others were percieved as bring up in a negative light (and some were) I am not complaining about, I am making a tactical analysis, and thinking about how we, like our beloved blueskins, can adapt...
The Big Observations: Options - we have options. If anything comes out of this, I am VERY happy that it looks like we have a lot of options. The new HQ's, the drones, the warlord traits - this all appears to indicate that we have a lot of styles of play - will all be viable? who knows. But I know this, we have a lot more things we can do, and that alone makes this a great new book.
Core Functions - Many of our core/iconic capabilities - are there and intact (more or less?) - The hammerhead and its big gun, stealth suits, seeker missiles, crisis teams jumping around, firewarriors and the S5AP 30" rifle of happiness, drones and most importantly - markerlights. Oh, yes.
A few nice surprises - vespid might actually be useful... I love the little guys, and am eager to try them out (I have 30 of them....go figure).
- Ethereals - hmmm....they don't suck. Well, prolly not. A few area buffs, a few special rules, not bad. Sounds like these might actually be useful for constructing various lists (see options, above).
- Kroot snipers - um....sure? thats a nice new thing. Don't know what gap/problem they were trying to solve (especially with sniper drones now being sniper as well) but...um...sure, I will take it....this opens up a lot of new ideas.
- drones and more drones - the new pathfinder drones are nifty - and the new missile, and other drones, and their accessibility - are going to add a lot of options (for those not keeping up options = good).
- The riptide - two things - this is surprising unit - and might be a great pile of good - not sure yet exactly what role it will fill and if it will do it effectively for the points, but hey, it looks cool (some would disagree) doing it. yes please.
- Skyfire accessibility - this was a neat surprise. Again, more options.
- Character abilities - from the tank DJ, to the fireblade to Darkstrider - again, cool options to help keep lists from all looking the same - or that is the hope.
- Minor buffs here and there - the burst cannon might be useful at 4 shots, the sms 30", lots of intersting special gear - the list goes on - lots of things to learn, and figure out how to incorporate.
Clearly we have a lot of opportunities for synergy and "finesse" play. This is a good thing.
Challenges - Not all is cake and ice cream, besides learning all the new toys, there will be a few challenges that we will have to figure out what they mean...are they just ....different? Or will they require major tactical adjustments or hard lessons.
- Broadsides - oh boy, the banter and math debates. Regardless of how well these guys do against flyers - one thing is undeniably clear - they are not as effective as they once were against heavy armor - period.
What does this mean? It means the gap has to be taken up somewhere, and while there might be some options in other methods (hoping for glances, riptide overcharge, S7 torrent, fusion danger squads, etc.) one thing is very clear - the signature tau methodology of low volume, yet exceptionally high quality (S10AP1) long ranged firepower - that paradigm - is gone. We will never have 6 (or 9 for crazies!) twin linked long ranged S10 shots again.
What does this mean? It means just as we had to adapt to 6th, we have to adapt to this. Each player will have to figure out what this means - in their local scene in what they face on the boards - and in how they can leverage the new tools the codex has - tools that may be better or worse - but are clearly different.
- Pathfinders - a 5+ save. Just as the 3+ save of the marine is so critical in its survive-ability (due to common ap values, and just plain statistics) 5+ armor is well, toast. Between the rate of failure, and the fact that the majority of common side arms in the game are ap5 - our little buddies are going to need to be used very carefully. Given the value of markerlights, and the perceived value of their other toys...these guys are going to be a primary target. Players who do not plan for this, will find themselves getting some very hard lessons indeed - so start thinking now on how to manage this critical resource.
- Kroot - While getting a new role....what about the role they filled before - a CC unit. Well, they are just....well, lets just say, we have to think about how we are going to use them. Personally, I LOVE my kroot, and i hate to think that I might just have to look for allies elsewhere for some CC love....only time will tell. One thing is obvious - S3 is a bit hit - combine that with the rumor that the rifle is no longer a double weapon (well, not confirmed yet) - if this part is true - the use of kroot will require a lot more deliberation than before.
- Devil fish - sure, the burst cannon is a bit better, and they might have some warger upgrades to make them awesome high point transports. Well, the challenge is, tau could have really benefited from some cheap transport options, even if they were worse than the fish (remember all that about how good options are, from above?). So, while we did not have to pay the pathfinder tax anymore, we still don't have a cheap transport option - so use the fish with great care (when will these guys learn how to shoot out a hatch? Apparently top hatches are only for sightseeing tank commanders....).
- Targeting arrays - so, these might be in there, but a lot of reading, spanish translation and sifting through the entrails of a goat have given sign that we just might not have these precious things. Sure, you can make up for it with makerlights - but that is different - we will have to adapt and use markers very carefully - marker priority becomes much more critical now - in a way, this is a good thing - this kind of "finesse" and smart play is what separates the successful tau player from the soon to sell his army and go back to his space wolves list band-wagoneer players.
- The flyers - well, meh is the new black for flyers in 6th it seems (oh why gw, have you not adjusted the scythe and the vendetta yet? Don't answer that, not in this thread at least). Ok, The fighter is not bad...its just not strightforward - maybe this is a good thing. Utilizing the turret and seekers on this thing may be the key - so think about the angles and plan your moves - especially with our poor BS skill.
- The bomber - ok, um....I am not really sure if this flying whilrwind is just our pyrovore, or if it will take a lot more work how to figure it out - dunno - I suspect the drones are the key to its value....this could be an opportunity for thinking tau players. Or it could be just a goofy model I put on my book case. Dunno.
Well, that is enough for now. Overall, I think the book is strong and have a lot of high hopes.
We have a lot of new options to play with, new models to paint, and new tau players to mock - oh, and go write forgeworld and tell them they make totally cool stuff, and if they would please update their rules for 6th - and um, fix the remora please.
Very nice post davethepak, I agree on everything you've brought up. I haven't played Tau since 3rd edition, and this is a very exciting time to get back into the army! For the Farsight Enclave!
Yikes, I can see a lot of bile aimed at the new Tau rules from players.
I've managed to get s look at the book and I don't see why.
It's a vast improvement on the last book and I think it's the best codex for 6th so far. It's very well written and there are sooooo many builds to an army that only really had one viable one.
Call me old fashioned, but the more I read the codex, the more overall disapointed I am about it. The 3rd edition to 4th edition codex replacement brought forth a lot of new ways to deal with current problems that tau had to be a viable army. Not a power army by any means, but able to hold up with the best of them. The codex held well through 4th and even 5th. Won many tourneys in 5th with tau, and still are winning them in 6th.
I am sure I will figure out the new codex, but it really seams like I have to cookie cutter a list more than ever. I have to have a rail head to take out heavy armor. I will need to take armor 5 pathfinders to make my suits worth while. And I will have to take suicide suits/pirana for the chance of IG parking lot/ heavy raider lists.
I can't explain it, but the more I read the codex the more I get a rotten taste in my mouth. I keep thinking of the more common than not lists at the tourneys and getting more and more confused/depresed at the strtegies I now need to employ to at least be competitive.
jazzpaintball wrote: Call me old fashioned, but the more I read the codex, the more overall disapointed I am about it. The 3rd edition to 4th edition codex replacement brought forth a lot of new ways to deal with current problems that tau had to be a viable army. Not a power army by any means, but able to hold up with the best of them. The codex held well through 4th and even 5th. Won many tourneys in 5th with tau, and still are winning them in 6th.
I am sure I will figure out the new codex, but it really seams like I have to cookie cutter a list more than ever. I have to have a rail head to take out heavy armor. I will need to take armor 5 pathfinders to make my suits worth while. And I will have to take suicide suits/pirana for the chance of IG parking lot/ heavy raider lists.
I can't explain it, but the more I read the codex the more I get a rotten taste in my mouth. I keep thinking of the more common than not lists at the tourneys and getting more and more confused/depresed at the strtegies I now need to employ to at least be competitive.
You should stop wanting your cakeand ice cream and just be happy with the cake. Tau have been buffed and nerfed respectively ACROSS the board but have been gimped in no real area. I mean your dex could be worse. . . Tyranid worse. . .
Options Options Options is the name of the New game for Tau.
Everyone seems to be upset that Pathfinders are fragile......rail rifles, markerlights and probably the ion rifle shoot at least 30". Shouldnt be too hard to keep them at least somewhat safe. but thats also why you may take 3 squads of 12 of them just to make sure your covered lol
jazzpaintball wrote: Call me old fashioned, but the more I read the codex, the more overall disapointed I am about it. The 3rd edition to 4th edition codex replacement brought forth a lot of new ways to deal with current problems that tau had to be a viable army. Not a power army by any means, but able to hold up with the best of them. The codex held well through 4th and even 5th. Won many tourneys in 5th with tau, and still are winning them in 6th.
I am sure I will figure out the new codex, but it really seams like I have to cookie cutter a list more than ever. I have to have a rail head to take out heavy armor. I will need to take armor 5 pathfinders to make my suits worth while. And I will have to take suicide suits/pirana for the chance of IG parking lot/ heavy raider lists.
I can't explain it, but the more I read the codex the more I get a rotten taste in my mouth. I keep thinking of the more common than not lists at the tourneys and getting more and more confused/depresed at the strtegies I now need to employ to at least be competitive.
You should stop wanting your cakeand ice cream and just be happy with the cake. Tau have been buffed and nerfed respectively ACROSS the board but have been gimped in no real area. I mean your dex could be worse. . . Tyranid worse. . .
Not a great analogy. I know plenty of good Tyranid players that have done well at competitive level. They are still strong in 6th ed with Iron Army Flyrant and stacked enfeeble destroying deathstars.
I think the real analogy you are looking for is Sisters of Battle worse.
Do we have confirmation on the Kroot rifle not giving an extra attack? I can see "counts as two weapons" getting translated into "two handed weapon" pretty easy. Why would you say its two handed if they don't have another CC anyway? No need.
Wolfnid420 wrote: Two handed implies a boost in strength does it not? Like a power axe maybe? So kroot when down but realy +2S=5?
No, Two-Handed implies it can't be combined with other weapons for bonus attacks, nothing more. It might give bonus strength, but that's not guaranteed.
jazzpaintball wrote: Call me old fashioned, but the more I read the codex, the more overall disapointed I am about it. The 3rd edition to 4th edition codex replacement brought forth a lot of new ways to deal with current problems that tau had to be a viable army. Not a power army by any means, but able to hold up with the best of them. The codex held well through 4th and even 5th. Won many tourneys in 5th with tau, and still are winning them in 6th.
I am sure I will figure out the new codex, but it really seams like I have to cookie cutter a list more than ever. I have to have a rail head to take out heavy armor. I will need to take armor 5 pathfinders to make my suits worth while. And I will have to take suicide suits/pirana for the chance of IG parking lot/ heavy raider lists.
I can't explain it, but the more I read the codex the more I get a rotten taste in my mouth. I keep thinking of the more common than not lists at the tourneys and getting more and more confused/depresed at the strtegies I now need to employ to at least be competitive.
You should stop wanting your cakeand ice cream and just be happy with the cake. Tau have been buffed and nerfed respectively ACROSS the board but have been gimped in no real area. I mean your dex could be worse. . . Tyranid worse. . .
So with the new codex, what is your plan for dealing with multiple AV13/14? So far, I feel that we got nerfed there with no real compromise in any other area....
Anyone with suggestions beyond railhead spam and/or suicide Tau suits that I mentioned above?
davethepak wrote: As someone who has been playing tau consistently since 5th edition (no, I did not put mine on the shelf like so many others) I am very excited about the new dex.
My complaints are actually very few, and mainly about the lack of FW models (yeah, I get it - I am a business guy, its an internal finance thing at gw...still sucks though).
We have a lot of info (and quite a bit missing) but we have enough to start thinking about what some of this means.
NOTE: The stuff I bring up, which others were percieved as bring up in a negative light (and some were) I am not complaining about, I am making a tactical analysis, and thinking about how we, like our beloved blueskins, can adapt...
The Big Observations: Options - we have options. If anything comes out of this, I am VERY happy that it looks like we have a lot of options. The new HQ's, the drones, the warlord traits - this all appears to indicate that we have a lot of styles of play - will all be viable? who knows. But I know this, we have a lot more things we can do, and that alone makes this a great new book.
Core Functions - Many of our core/iconic capabilities - are there and intact (more or less?) - The hammerhead and its big gun, stealth suits, seeker missiles, crisis teams jumping around, firewarriors and the S5AP 30" rifle of happiness, drones and most importantly - markerlights. Oh, yes.
A few nice surprises - vespid might actually be useful... I love the little guys, and am eager to try them out (I have 30 of them....go figure).
- Ethereals - hmmm....they don't suck. Well, prolly not. A few area buffs, a few special rules, not bad. Sounds like these might actually be useful for constructing various lists (see options, above).
- Kroot snipers - um....sure? thats a nice new thing. Don't know what gap/problem they were trying to solve (especially with sniper drones now being sniper as well) but...um...sure, I will take it....this opens up a lot of new ideas.
- drones and more drones - the new pathfinder drones are nifty - and the new missile, and other drones, and their accessibility - are going to add a lot of options (for those not keeping up options = good).
- The riptide - two things - this is surprising unit - and might be a great pile of good - not sure yet exactly what role it will fill and if it will do it effectively for the points, but hey, it looks cool (some would disagree) doing it. yes please.
- Skyfire accessibility - this was a neat surprise. Again, more options.
- Character abilities - from the tank DJ, to the fireblade to Darkstrider - again, cool options to help keep lists from all looking the same - or that is the hope.
- Minor buffs here and there - the burst cannon might be useful at 4 shots, the sms 30", lots of intersting special gear - the list goes on - lots of things to learn, and figure out how to incorporate.
Clearly we have a lot of opportunities for synergy and "finesse" play. This is a good thing.
Challenges - Not all is cake and ice cream, besides learning all the new toys, there will be a few challenges that we will have to figure out what they mean...are they just ....different? Or will they require major tactical adjustments or hard lessons.
- Broadsides - oh boy, the banter and math debates. Regardless of how well these guys do against flyers - one thing is undeniably clear - they are not as effective as they once were against heavy armor - period.
What does this mean? It means the gap has to be taken up somewhere, and while there might be some options in other methods (hoping for glances, riptide overcharge, S7 torrent, fusion danger squads, etc.) one thing is very clear - the signature tau methodology of low volume, yet exceptionally high quality (S10AP1) long ranged firepower - that paradigm - is gone. We will never have 6 (or 9 for crazies!) twin linked long ranged S10 shots again.
What does this mean? It means just as we had to adapt to 6th, we have to adapt to this. Each player will have to figure out what this means - in their local scene in what they face on the boards - and in how they can leverage the new tools the codex has - tools that may be better or worse - but are clearly different.
- Pathfinders - a 5+ save. Just as the 3+ save of the marine is so critical in its survive-ability (due to common ap values, and just plain statistics) 5+ armor is well, toast. Between the rate of failure, and the fact that the majority of common side arms in the game are ap5 - our little buddies are going to need to be used very carefully. Given the value of markerlights, and the perceived value of their other toys...these guys are going to be a primary target. Players who do not plan for this, will find themselves getting some very hard lessons indeed - so start thinking now on how to manage this critical resource.
- Kroot - While getting a new role....what about the role they filled before - a CC unit. Well, they are just....well, lets just say, we have to think about how we are going to use them. Personally, I LOVE my kroot, and i hate to think that I might just have to look for allies elsewhere for some CC love....only time will tell. One thing is obvious - S3 is a bit hit - combine that with the rumor that the rifle is no longer a double weapon (well, not confirmed yet) - if this part is true - the use of kroot will require a lot more deliberation than before.
- Devil fish - sure, the burst cannon is a bit better, and they might have some warger upgrades to make them awesome high point transports. Well, the challenge is, tau could have really benefited from some cheap transport options, even if they were worse than the fish (remember all that about how good options are, from above?). So, while we did not have to pay the pathfinder tax anymore, we still don't have a cheap transport option - so use the fish with great care (when will these guys learn how to shoot out a hatch? Apparently top hatches are only for sightseeing tank commanders....).
- Targeting arrays - so, these might be in there, but a lot of reading, spanish translation and sifting through the entrails of a goat have given sign that we just might not have these precious things. Sure, you can make up for it with makerlights - but that is different - we will have to adapt and use markers very carefully - marker priority becomes much more critical now - in a way, this is a good thing - this kind of "finesse" and smart play is what separates the successful tau player from the soon to sell his army and go back to his space wolves list band-wagoneer players.
- The flyers - well, meh is the new black for flyers in 6th it seems (oh why gw, have you not adjusted the scythe and the vendetta yet? Don't answer that, not in this thread at least). Ok, The fighter is not bad...its just not strightforward - maybe this is a good thing. Utilizing the turret and seekers on this thing may be the key - so think about the angles and plan your moves - especially with our poor BS skill.
- The bomber - ok, um....I am not really sure if this flying whilrwind is just our pyrovore, or if it will take a lot more work how to figure it out - dunno - I suspect the drones are the key to its value....this could be an opportunity for thinking tau players. Or it could be just a goofy model I put on my book case. Dunno.
Well, that is enough for now. Overall, I think the book is strong and have a lot of high hopes.
We have a lot of new options to play with, new models to paint, and new tau players to mock - oh, and go write forgeworld and tell them they make totally cool stuff, and if they would please update their rules for 6th - and um, fix the remora please.
see you on the table...
The thing to remember about the bomber is that the drones are twin-linked, and the "get's hot" roll is separate from the scatter roll, so you'll pretty much always be firing them as twin S8 blasts with no drawback.
It boils down to this.
At 30" the 150 point fighter has either six non-TL S7 attacks or 2 non-TL S7 attacks and one S8 Large Blast with a 1 in 6 chance of Get's Hot. The 165 point bomber has a networked markerlight, 2 TL-S7 Attacks and either two S7 TL-BS2 shots or two S8 blasts with a 1/36 chance of get's hot. At 15" the bomber has the slight edge in anti-flyer firepower as the extra shots from rapid fire kick in.
Basically the worth of the bomber depends on whether the embarked drones are considered turrets or fixed forwards.
Having played Blood Angels at a competitive level I have no issue with FBide groups and Tank Hunters seemlegit.
AV13 is rather frail since they do not have a strong read or side at times so it will not be too difficult. AV14 I would just block with a Piranha and have a great day. Piranha's roles really have not changed except now they will get better melta shots!
Yes it might involve wasting a turn of shooting but once again I am ok with this. If you mire the LR, then its precious cargo can not get to its goal easily, that is a win in my book.
Yes once again the math is not on my side but I have killed an entire battleplan with a well placed glance or pen. Remember sometimes you have to look like you can do worse then what you really can. Games have many depths and you lose on all the ones you dont fight on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tabeling a foe is great and all but it is not nessecary all the time.
I am very excited about the new codex but a little sad we are not going to be OP :(
The good:
Missile pod drones! These are cheap and pack a punch. They are actually so good I feel like they will overshadow all other drones. Every crisis team will consist of 3 xv8's 6 missile drones. Every stealth suit is going to want 2 missile drones (except one suit who will have a missile drone and the one that give +6" to pulse weapons). They clearly outshine gun drones (even with the gun drone buff) and they take a wound like a shield drone. The only way I see shield drones being taken is if the owner is wearing irridium armor for sv2+ or if the unit needs to take a sv4+ because the majority of the unit has that save, then I could see people taking 2 shield drones and 4 missile drones so the majority sv is 3+ (but I am not sure that is how the rules work out, correct me if I am wrong) But either way we are going to have s7 spam like crazy.
Riptide actually looks amazing to me. I have been on the fence about this unit but the ion accelerator is just a MEQ and TEQ destroying monster. I don't see myself nova charging it often because it is just too risky but overcharged s8 ap2 large blast is just going to take units out. Especially considering you can spend 2 marker lights to take away cover. The unit with upgrades is going to be 230pts+ (each special drone is 25 I believe) but he can easily make his points up and will draw tons of fire. T6 W6 sv2+ is going to be hard to kill. He fights for elite space so I only expect to see 1 of him in a list under 2kpts but I think he will have a nice home
HQ choices all look good. I especially like the cheaper HQs like the Ethereals and Fire cadre that give buffs to our troops. This will go a long way to helping us capture objectives. But I do think that we will have to see just how good these are because souped up firewarriors are still just firewarriors and can often struggle to kill MEQs. We will have to see.
The bad:
Our flyers look like they are going to sink. They have some nice tricks but nothing special that you can't get on foot and they are pretty low armored so any anti-air will get them before they can really do their thing. Unless there is some special rule I am not seeing or an upgrade to make them better I just don't see these doing good. Whats more, marker lights are going t be high priority with so many seeker missiles and everyone at bs3 so I don't see much room in our fast attack for these guysl
Devil fish, they are getting a buff to firepower with extra shots on the burst cannon and the gun drones but they are staying the same price and d-pods are going up in price and down in effectiveness. They are not paired with pathfinders now so I don't know how many people are going to take them. They really should cost 50pts as they have no firepoints, very small arms and are just a can to move fire warriors around. I am not going to spend 90 points to move around a unit of firewarriors I am going to buy another unit.
Pathfinders. They are getting some toys that might be fun but we need markerlights more than ever and these guys have gotten worst. Marker lights are still heavy for some stupid reason and now pathfinders have a sv5+ so they are easier to kill (thought to be honest I have never taken these guys out of ruins, I just set them there and let them go to town) Still I was hoping for much more mobile marker lights.
Lysenis wrote: Having played Blood Angels at a competitive level I have no issue with FBide groups and Tank Hunters seemlegit.
AV13 is rather frail since they do not have a strong read or side at times so it will not be too difficult. AV14 I would just block with a Piranha and have a great day. Piranha's roles really have not changed except now they will get better melta shots!
Yes it might involve wasting a turn of shooting but once again I am ok with this. If you mire the LR, then its precious cargo can not get to its goal easily, that is a win in my book.
Yes once again the math is not on my side but I have killed an entire battleplan with a well placed glance or pen. Remember sometimes you have to look like you can do worse then what you really can. Games have many depths and you lose on all the ones you dont fight on.
Yes, but now we have to figure out what to do with our fast attack slot. looks like you will not have the ability to take flyers until 2k, and that is only if you want to go to dual force org.
Pathfinders are so needed now, we have to have at least 2 squads, and with the third needing to be piranhas to be an all-comers list.
like I said, it seems like I have to have a more cookie cutter set-up than ever.
I was comparing what my new Crisis suits cost compared to my old crisis suits.
I see "Multitracker" on the wargear description page, bt I'm not seeing it on the list of options to choose from of Support Items.
Do crisis suits come with the multi-tracker automatically?
From what I have read, yes they do come with multi-trackers. This means Fireknife and helios build are 52 points rather than 62 so 16% less. Firestorm actually went up in price by 1 pt but because we have so much missile pod availability I don't think many people will run that build. I could see helio with missile drones being the most common configuration now.
I honestly have no real answer for what I'm going to do about the loss of my XV-88's in their real role. I used them as exactly what they are there for, in a vehicle heavy MEQ area, I needed that s10/1 reliable shooting, without it, it doesn't matter how many fusillades of missiles I can send down at them, it won't help.
Running helios suits just puts you in danger when the other player now knows you have to come to him to handle him. The hammerhead is literally the worst anti-tank tank in the game. You bring it when you need to lay down templates, not when you're actually going to use that solid shot. Hell, I use them as bait. Guys that don't quite understand what's going on tend to focus on that hideously large gun knowing that pushing tanks into my lines kills them, so I just run it up and get them going for it.
The missilespam XV-88's are going to be fun, but I would still take the (10/1)railguns on at least 2/3 in the squad, simply because they're versatile killing machines. They're either the death of equipment, or they're still solid shots at dangerous targets. Reliable in pretty much any role that's not blob army types (in which cases I would field hammerheads).
The biggest problem here is that the tau lack a real av14 killer now. Sure, you could bring hammerheads, and you could bring three, and then on average you could score hits that MIGHT equal 1.5 hull points per turn, if you're lucky. AV14 isn't usually concerned too greatly about 1.5 per turn, especially if they have multiple of them. Overcharging a suit to get s9 shots is a terrible idea, that's why we had the 10/1 railguns, because we had no s9/2 or 8/2, it was mid range MEQ and long range Anti-AV. Giving us the option to skyfire at a -2 strength would have been more than enough, they didn't need to "buff" the hammerhead by pulling the teeth out of our XV-88's.
Pathfinders. They are getting some toys that might be fun but we need markerlights more than ever and these guys have gotten worst. Marker lights are still heavy for some stupid reason and now pathfinders have a sv5+ so they are easier to kill (thought to be honest I have never taken these guys out of ruins, I just set them there and let them go to town) Still I was hoping for much more mobile marker lights.
I conceed that markerlights arn't any more mobile than before, but you have to admit, it makes sense they're heavy. You're painting a target with a laser, essentially. You need to hold still and keep the laser on the target while other weapons utilize the pinpoint guidance.
So yes, they're less mobile. And yes, they're a bit more squishy with one less armor, but at least now FW have a clear role compared to pathfinders. FW are your aggressive infantry, PF are your support infantry.
But they're also a single point less expensive, and no devilfish required.
old codex: 4 pathfinders with devilfish: 128 points.
new codex: 4 pathfinders: 44 points.
Without the shackle of the manditory Dfish, I can almost field three times the amount of pathfinders for roughly the same cost.
So we're going to see a MASSIVE increase in pathfinder use.
My advice? Use pathfinder's markerlights as mid-to-back field laser support, and any frontline laser support should be from outflanking pathfinders (just make sure they outflank at a section that keeps them away from utter destruction for a turn, as they can't arrive and use markerlights on the same turn).
Funny story about outflanking pathfinders, if you get them in the enemies backfield and he's moved all of his aggressive units forward, then you have good markerlight coverage on his support units and his mid-field units, and to get your pathfinders, they have to back-track. That's exaclty what happened against my brother and his CSM last time we played. I outflanked my pathfinders (with Dfish, of course), and when his infantry was already halfway across the board, he had to spend 2 turns getting them back to my pathfinders (who had already painted his back-field weapons platform), by the time his infantry caught up to me, my Crisis suits had deepstruck near my back-field pathfinders (with the help of the Dfish's sensors). Not only did I gut his back line, but since he had to pull troops off of his mid-to-front line, his attack was somewhat blunted as well. I know it won't always work that perfectly, but it's very viable and hard to counter, as long as the enemy just doesn't play super-defensively or bunch up in his own back lines.
With that in mind, it's of my opinion that pathfinders are vastly improved from their old codex position.
like I said, it seems like I have to have a more cookie cutter set-up than ever.
I have to disagree. With what I have read it looks like many options are viable. Stealth suits seem like they can actually be played now and worth taking over crisis suits. Kroot seem very good with sniper ammo and firewarriors get some nice buffs so you could easily take an infantry heavy list. 3 riptides thought not the best could work out. We are suffering from not having as much variety as every other army but I don't think list will be cookie cutter.
Anbutou wrote: I honestly have no real answer for what I'm going to do about the loss of my XV-88's in their real role. I used them as exactly what they are there for, in a vehicle heavy MEQ area, I needed that s10/1 reliable shooting, without it, it doesn't matter how many fusillades of missiles I can send down at them, it won't help.
Running helios suits just puts you in danger when the other player now knows you have to come to him to handle him. The hammerhead is literally the worst anti-tank tank in the game. You bring it when you need to lay down templates, not when you're actually going to use that solid shot. Hell, I use them as bait. Guys that don't quite understand what's going on tend to focus on that hideously large gun knowing that pushing tanks into my lines kills them, so I just run it up and get them going for it.
The missilespam XV-88's are going to be fun, but I would still take the (10/1)railguns on at least 2/3 in the squad, simply because they're versatile killing machines. They're either the death of equipment, or they're still solid shots at dangerous targets. Reliable in pretty much any role that's not blob army types (in which cases I would field hammerheads).
The biggest problem here is that the tau lack a real av14 killer now. Sure, you could bring hammerheads, and you could bring three, and then on average you could score hits that MIGHT equal 1.5 hull points per turn, if you're lucky. AV14 isn't usually concerned too greatly about 1.5 per turn, especially if they have multiple of them. Overcharging a suit to get s9 shots is a terrible idea, that's why we had the 10/1 railguns, because we had no s9/2 or 8/2, it was mid range MEQ and long range Anti-AV. Giving us the option to skyfire at a -2 strength would have been more than enough, they didn't need to "buff" the hammerhead by pulling the teeth out of our XV-88's.
I'm a bit annoyed Broadsides Shas'vre can't pick Signature systems (And therefore the Puretide chip). Tank Hunters/Monster Hunters would actually make them semi-credible in their original role.
Or heck, give them an overcharge that makes the gun Melta or Ordnance.
Right now the easiest way to hit vehicles with Strength 10 attacks is charging in the Riptide and using Smash. That's pretty dang odd.
Anbutou wrote: I honestly have no real answer for what I'm going to do about the loss of my XV-88's in their real role. I used them as exactly what they are there for, in a vehicle heavy MEQ area, I needed that s10/1 reliable shooting, without it, it doesn't matter how many fusillades of missiles I can send down at them, it won't help.
Running helios suits just puts you in danger when the other player now knows you have to come to him to handle him. The hammerhead is literally the worst anti-tank tank in the game. You bring it when you need to lay down templates, not when you're actually going to use that solid shot. Hell, I use them as bait. Guys that don't quite understand what's going on tend to focus on that hideously large gun knowing that pushing tanks into my lines kills them, so I just run it up and get them going for it.
The missilespam XV-88's are going to be fun, but I would still take the (10/1)railguns on at least 2/3 in the squad, simply because they're versatile killing machines. They're either the death of equipment, or they're still solid shots at dangerous targets. Reliable in pretty much any role that's not blob army types (in which cases I would field hammerheads).
The biggest problem here is that the tau lack a real av14 killer now. Sure, you could bring hammerheads, and you could bring three, and then on average you could score hits that MIGHT equal 1.5 hull points per turn, if you're lucky. AV14 isn't usually concerned too greatly about 1.5 per turn, especially if they have multiple of them. Overcharging a suit to get s9 shots is a terrible idea, that's why we had the 10/1 railguns, because we had no s9/2 or 8/2, it was mid range MEQ and long range Anti-AV. Giving us the option to skyfire at a -2 strength would have been more than enough, they didn't need to "buff" the hammerhead by pulling the teeth out of our XV-88's.
I am glad I am not the only one seeing this problem...
Pathfinders. They are getting some toys that might be fun but we need markerlights more than ever and these guys have gotten worst. Marker lights are still heavy for some stupid reason and now pathfinders have a sv5+ so they are easier to kill (thought to be honest I have never taken these guys out of ruins, I just set them there and let them go to town) Still I was hoping for much more mobile marker lights.
I conceed that markerlights arn't any more mobile than before, but you have to admit, it makes sense they're heavy. You're painting a target with a laser, essentially. You need to hold still and keep the laser on the target while other weapons utilize the pinpoint guidance.
So yes, they're less mobile. And yes, they're a bit more squishy with one less armor, but at least now FW have a clear role compared to pathfinders. FW are your aggressive infantry, PF are your support infantry.
But they're also a single point less expensive, and no devilfish required.
old codex: 4 pathfinders with devilfish: 128 points.
new codex: 4 pathfinders: 44 points.
Without the shackle of the manditory Dfish, I can almost field three times the amount of pathfinders for roughly the same cost.
So we're going to see a MASSIVE increase in pathfinder use.
My advice? Use pathfinder's markerlights as mid-to-back field laser support, and any frontline laser support should be from outflanking pathfinders (just make sure they outflank at a section that keeps them away from utter destruction for a turn, as they can't arrive and use markerlights on the same turn).
With that in mind, it's of my opinion that pathfinders are vastly improved from their old codex position.
I usually place my 8 pathfinders in ruins in the middle of the field where they can get the most hits off. I could see myself easily see myself running two squads of 8 and having them on either side blanketing the field. And the devil fish wasn't too much of a tax because I just loaded firewarriors inside of it and zoomed it to the back field. I was just hoping marker lights would be easier to get and on a better platform because they are such an iconic part of Tau.
Anbutou wrote: I honestly have no real answer for what I'm going to do about the loss of my XV-88's in their real role. I used them as exactly what they are there for, in a vehicle heavy MEQ area, I needed that s10/1 reliable shooting, without it, it doesn't matter how many fusillades of missiles I can send down at them, it won't help.
Running helios suits just puts you in danger when the other player now knows you have to come to him to handle him. The hammerhead is literally the worst anti-tank tank in the game. You bring it when you need to lay down templates, not when you're actually going to use that solid shot. Hell, I use them as bait. Guys that don't quite understand what's going on tend to focus on that hideously large gun knowing that pushing tanks into my lines kills them, so I just run it up and get them going for it.
The missilespam XV-88's are going to be fun, but I would still take the (10/1)railguns on at least 2/3 in the squad, simply because they're versatile killing machines. They're either the death of equipment, or they're still solid shots at dangerous targets. Reliable in pretty much any role that's not blob army types (in which cases I would field hammerheads).
The biggest problem here is that the tau lack a real av14 killer now. Sure, you could bring hammerheads, and you could bring three, and then on average you could score hits that MIGHT equal 1.5 hull points per turn, if you're lucky. AV14 isn't usually concerned too greatly about 1.5 per turn, especially if they have multiple of them. Overcharging a suit to get s9 shots is a terrible idea, that's why we had the 10/1 railguns, because we had no s9/2 or 8/2, it was mid range MEQ and long range Anti-AV. Giving us the option to skyfire at a -2 strength would have been more than enough, they didn't need to "buff" the hammerhead by pulling the teeth out of our XV-88's.
I'm a bit annoyed Broadsides Shas'vre can't pick Signature systems (And therefore the Puretide chip). Tank Hunters/Monster Hunters would actually make them semi-credible in their original role.
Or heck, give them an overcharge that makes the gun Melta or Ordnance.
Right now the easiest way to hit vehicles with Strength 10 attacks is charging in the Riptide and using Smash. That's pretty dang odd.
Or use a (very easy to obtain) markerlight and shoot it with a Hammerhead.
Or give the a crisis suit an onagar gauntlet and falcon pawnch the enemy tank. (might as well give the suit a melta, for synergy)
It's NOT the easiest way though is it? You've got to get the guy into their back field alive (whilst facing probably every single gun in their force) to even get to a tank. Then you have 2 attacks to hit it on a 3+. Granted that's probably going to wreck face it's not a sound tactic.
2 x Hammerheads with one being Longstrike is what I shall be taking. I play IG so face quite a few LRusses. It's funny - in my last game it was my two HHs that took out the Russes first and NOT the Broadside!!!
Also - to those people moaning about "cookie clutter" lists because XV88 got nerfed...ermmm...that's exactly what cookie clutter was. They FORCED you to take XV88s because we had practically no other decent option. No we have so much Strength 7/8/9 weaponary glances and pens with HHs will be quite easy to get IMO. Especially with the new Fusion range and Stealths being bad ass.
EDIT - I CANNOT WAIT to falcon pawnch a tank :-D Completely non-Tau tactic and very risky and will result in many dead Battlesuits the turn after but just to see the reaction on my enemies face will be priceless.
like I said, it seems like I have to have a more cookie cutter set-up than ever.
I have to disagree. With what I have read it looks like many options are viable. Stealth suits seem like they can actually be played now and worth taking over crisis suits. Kroot seem very good with sniper ammo and firewarriors get some nice buffs so you could easily take an infantry heavy list. 3 riptides thought not the best could work out. We are suffering from not having as much variety as every other army but I don't think list will be cookie cutter.
Stealth suits in a full cloud formation (6 suits and 12 drones) were always viable. And with shroud in 6th edition, they became one of the hardest hitting and most survivable units I have ever used. So that did not change. Infantry heavy is already what you wanted to do since 6th edition required so many more models on the table than 4th or 5th ever did.
We will have to agree to disagree. I feel that we will have our fast attack and heavy support nearly cookie cutter for every tau player...
Vespids - Gun drones (maybe allowed to take the Missile drones too) - Piranhas and Pathfinders?
Depending on the area you are in a squad of Vespids could be very handy now - especially with their 4+ armour and host of special rules. Get them swarming between buildings as close support and MEQ are going down! Just be creative, it's not all about comp environment with epic lists of doom.
Gun drone squadrons were always fun, especially as a distraction deepstrike unit behind an enemy tank or unit. Now IF we can swap a couple out for missile drones or whatever, that could be fun to use.
Or use a (very easy to obtain) markerlight and shoot it with a Hammerhead.
Or give the a crisis suit an onagar gauntlet and falcon pawnch the enemy tank. (might as well give the suit a melta, for synergy)
FAAALCOONPUNNCH!
Lols aside that is actually an interesting idea.
Do consider that this is a new codex. New ways of handeling things. Honestly I think the biggest issue people are haivng right now is that they are comparing what they had (as of this saturday) and not looking forward to what they have to work with now.
Stop living in the past and live with the rest of us in the present.
It's NOT the easiest way though is it? You've got to get the guy into their back field alive (whilst facing probably every single gun in their force) to even get to a tank. Then you have 2 attacks to hit it on a 3+. Granted that's probably going to wreck face it's not a sound tactic.
2 x Hammerheads with one being Longstrike is what I shall be taking. I play IG so face quite a few LRusses. It's funny - in my last game it was my two HHs that took out the Russes first and NOT the Broadside!!!
Also - to those people moaning about "cookie clutter" lists because XV88 got nerfed...ermmm...that's exactly what cookie clutter was. They FORCED you to take XV88s because we had practically no other decent option. No we have so much Strength 7/8/9 weaponary glances and pens with HHs will be quite easy to get IMO. Especially with the new Fusion range and Stealths being bad ass.
EDIT - I CANNOT WAIT to falcon pawnch a tank :-D Completely non-Tau tactic and very risky and will result in many dead Battlesuits the turn after but just to see the reaction on my enemies face will be priceless.
Yes, we had a cookie cutter in the heavy support slot: XV-88 for anti-heavy armor. Now we have a cookie cutter in the heavy support: Hammerhead for less anti-heavy armor and Fast Attack due to needing 2 squads of pathfinders and most likely piranhas to help with anti-armor due to hammer heads being innefficiant at doing it for a heavy support slot.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh, by the way. Anyone have more information on the marker beacon system?
I never minded the pathfinder "tax" due to the DF having the beacon.
Can we still get a marker beacon on a DF? Or did we even lose the ability to suicide suits via deepstrike a bit more effectively?
Anbutou wrote: I honestly have no real answer for what I'm going to do about the loss of my XV-88's in their real role. I used them as exactly what they are there for, in a vehicle heavy MEQ area, I needed that s10/1 reliable shooting, without it, it doesn't matter how many fusillades of missiles I can send down at them, it won't help.
Running helios suits just puts you in danger when the other player now knows you have to come to him to handle him. The hammerhead is literally the worst anti-tank tank in the game. You bring it when you need to lay down templates, not when you're actually going to use that solid shot. Hell, I use them as bait. Guys that don't quite understand what's going on tend to focus on that hideously large gun knowing that pushing tanks into my lines kills them, so I just run it up and get them going for it.
The missilespam XV-88's are going to be fun, but I would still take the (10/1)railguns on at least 2/3 in the squad, simply because they're versatile killing machines. They're either the death of equipment, or they're still solid shots at dangerous targets. Reliable in pretty much any role that's not blob army types (in which cases I would field hammerheads).
The biggest problem here is that the tau lack a real av14 killer now. Sure, you could bring hammerheads, and you could bring three, and then on average you could score hits that MIGHT equal 1.5 hull points per turn, if you're lucky. AV14 isn't usually concerned too greatly about 1.5 per turn, especially if they have multiple of them. Overcharging a suit to get s9 shots is a terrible idea, that's why we had the 10/1 railguns, because we had no s9/2 or 8/2, it was mid range MEQ and long range Anti-AV. Giving us the option to skyfire at a -2 strength would have been more than enough, they didn't need to "buff" the hammerhead by pulling the teeth out of our XV-88's.
I'm a bit annoyed Broadsides Shas'vre can't pick Signature systems (And therefore the Puretide chip). Tank Hunters/Monster Hunters would actually make them semi-credible in their original role.
Or heck, give them an overcharge that makes the gun Melta or Ordnance.
Right now the easiest way to hit vehicles with Strength 10 attacks is charging in the Riptide and using Smash. That's pretty dang odd.
Or use a (very easy to obtain) markerlight and shoot it with a Hammerhead. Or give the a crisis suit an onagar gauntlet and falcon pawnch the enemy tank. (might as well give the suit a melta, for synergy)
The problem here is that when you bring your crisis suits into 18 inch range of an enemy, that puts them in pretty serious danger. Especially if you assault them. You really think that the answer to heavy AV is to send a crisis suit face to face with it? So what, we just ignore the fact that heavy armor is rarely alone? That heavy armor is usually holding guys that can shrug off the hits of a s3 explosion and laugh while they mulch you? We should just go back to 4e and deep strike fusion suits to handle it? I mean, this is a serious weakness here. The Tau need to be able to handle armor, because if they can't, all that's gonna happen is you'll set your army down, and they'll drop tanks and smile. I understand that everything has to change, but the simplest fact here is that this didn't. Railguns weren't broken, they were extremely well costed/apportioned.
Utilizing a squad's worth of markerlights on a single tank just to ensure greater hits doesn't change your fire output. A standard deployment could handle six 10/1 shots at enemy AV, usually enough to crush any serious threats by T3, leaving you free to deal with softer targets. Now a maxed out deployment == 3 shots. So at absolute maximum you get to cripple one tank, maybe you even incapacitate it, I don't know. 3 rolls at 2+ then 3 rolls at 4+, seems like any problems I pointed out just above were solved completely, man those markerlights did the trick alright...
However, like the poster above, the first thing I'm gonna do when I get my army on the table is get a quadra tank fisting with two riptides, and my two crisis squads. I'm gonna do it knowing I'll lose because of it, but I'll die with a smile on my face, no lies.
I need to see the wording on the Marker Lights. Because what has been said so far is that they are tokens that stay on until used. . . Does this mean that they last the entire game or until the next player turn or until your next turn?
Nah - We probably won't need two squads of Pathfinders, remember we have access to a lot of cheaper markerdrones and Firewarrior Shas'ui cheap markerlights they can use on their own squads etc
We have access to Fusion blasters on just about every suit now combined with the two ways of getting non-scatter deepstriking is another tactic. We have EMP Grenades now also, as a last ditch attempt would do the job.
Riptide has some options - he can move 12" and then possibly 4D6 in the assault phase. Stick on Fusion Blasters and Missile Pods + either HBC or IA and that could wreck side armour, even front.
@Rogue - The beacon system is still here - Pathfinders and Stealth teams have access to two pieces of wargear that stops scatter within 6". The Pathfinder one also has the "if within 6" of board edge, can come on from there as Outflank" (something along those lines). One of our command traits is our HQ and unit he is with deepstrikes without scatter.
Oh knights who say nay....I have brought you a shrubbery
Lets just wait until we all have dex in hand before we start trying to bring the spirits of the whole tau community down...We have been waiting a long time for this, lets enjoy it or try to.
so I guess you'll have to find new ways to take care of AV14 instead of spamming XV88 the 'cookie cutters' of the last dex....ok sure were in it together. but if we got all these new goodies AND kept all of our S10/1 weapons...that would be a bit OP...IMHO
Anyways AV14 is rather expensive so it should be a bit harder to take down...wait till the 6th, read the dex and maybe we will find some options open to us...
Think about the solution, not the problem...that will only bring you and everyone around you down.
gr1m_dan wrote: Nah - We probably won't need two squads of Pathfinders, remember we have access to a lot of cheaper markerdrones and Firewarrior Shas'ui cheap markerlights they can use on their own squads etc
We have access to Fusion blasters on just about every suit now combined with the two ways of getting non-scatter deepstriking is another tactic. We have EMP Grenades now also, as a last ditch attempt would do the job.
Riptide has some options - he can move 12" and then possibly 4D6 in the assault phase. Stick on Fusion Blasters and Missile Pods + either HBC or IA and that could wreck side armour, even front.
@Rogue - The beacon system is still here - Pathfinders and Stealth teams have access to two pieces of wargear that stops scatter within 6". The Pathfinder one also has the "if within 6" of board edge, can come on from there as Outflank" (something along those lines). One of our command traits is our HQ and unit he is with deepstrikes without scatter.
Yup, that is what we need: deepstriking our commander to do a suicide tank hit.....
So we dont have a nearly board wide beacon system any more? now we only have the ability to deep strike next to our stealth teams which are in our deployment zone to begin with for it is stupid to not shoot with them from turn one.
So it looks like I can no longer even effectively deepstrike my heavy hitting stealth cloud.... Wow... I feel even more hurt from this....
Oooohhhooooo... This new stuff looks really sweet! So any suit can take the "BS2 Overwatch" system huh? Now, here it goes, my 3x3 Missilesides and 2x10 Fire Warriors behind an Aegis... Come and charge me bro, I dare you !
Also, Deep Striking Skyfire Sunforges will be pretty cool for AA. And for anything else too. So... Twilight of the Fireknife I suspect?
I find it funny that now that we have to work for our AV14 kills people are upset. Sorry peeps but as Hans_Einberg stated, since it is so expensive points wise it should be hard to take down.
How would it be OP? Also, I'm not talking about tactics, or about woes related to things we haven't learned, we've all seen the leaked images, there's the railguns, 8/1, I mean, unless someone went through ridiculous amounts of trouble to fake that codex, it's fact, so it's now, when we're still reeling that we need to find new ways around it, and leaving our stuff in rapid fire range just to handle av14 doesn't feel like the answer.
I don't think it would be OP in the slightest, I think it would provide a real dilemma to the tau builder. Do I bring the missile spam? Do I bring the Railguns? Man, do I want to play around with hard-wired target locks and such (provided those still exist of course) and run them together? Right now there's an extremely easy answer. You bring xv-88's, they've got missiles on them. AP1 doesn't make up for the weight of fire that the missiles bring. So what happened was we got our new "cookie cutters" and thus any debate is silenced.
Honestly, I probably would have rather seen a new suit introduced into the heavy support choices, given us a REAL dilemma there. Choose between another XV-88 squad or the anti-air // missile suit squad. That would have been a difficult choice right there.
Edit -
Lysenis wrote: I find it funny that now that we have to work for our AV14 kills people are upset. Sorry peeps but as Hans_Einberg stated, since it is so expensive points wise it should be hard to take down.
It is hard to take down. By default the Tau were some of the hardest hit by the 6th edition changes with the hull point system and damage rolling. Tau in 4 and 5 were absolute demons to tanks, you were lucky if you made it out of tau's first turn without losing at least 2-3 of yours, in early sixth they're lucky if they took down two. The problem i'm seeing is that we're using our 18" range suits to deal with your 48+" range tanks. That's the biggest problem. Any list that relies on it's tanks just has to set up a small trap and it becomes the 4e deepstriking fusion suit trap, even worse because you've gotta actually get really lucky to take a tank down in one now, even with fusion.
Lysenis wrote: I find it funny that now that we have to work for our AV14 kills people are upset. Sorry peeps but as Hans_Einberg stated, since it is so expensive points wise it should be hard to take down.
It is hard to take down. By default the Tau were some of the hardest hit by the 6th edition changes with the hull point system and damage rolling. Tau in 4 and 5 were absolute demons to tanks, you were lucky if you made it out of tau's first turn without losing at least 2-3 of yours, in early sixth they're lucky if they took down two. The problem i'm seeing is that we're using our 18" range suits to deal with your 48+" range tanks. That's the biggest problem. Any list that relies on it's tanks just has to set up a small trap and it becomes the 4e deepstriking fusion suit trap, even worse because you've gotta actually get really lucky to take a tank down in one now, even with fusion.
So because you cant take down AV14 like you did in the past you got nerfed? I think it matches the theme of why AV14 SHOULD be so hard to take down.
1-2 AV14/AV13 dead per turn is nerfed O.O I am missing something. . . what other army could boast that?. . . . Anyone? Maybe DE and Eldar but not always. . .
Anbutou wrote: Right now there's an extremely easy answer. You bring xv-88's, they've got missiles on them. AP1 doesn't make up for the weight of fire that the missiles bring. So what happened was we got our new "cookie cutters" and thus any debate is silenced.
I'm not so confident. Missile XV88s don't impress me much, while the railguns still seem good. The problem with the missile XV88s is that they aren't twin-linked and only have 36" range, which means that they aren't all that good and many targets can avoid them easily, especially flyers. What happens to those missile XV88s in Hammer and Anvil deployment? On the other hand, the heavy rail rifle can engage targets from outside normal weapon range and packs a heavy punch with its AP1. Flyers will be jinking and vehicles will be advancing carefully-- Paladins will just stay on the shelf!
Besides, there's one element here many people haven't considered-- the mirror match. My XV88s with heavy rail rifles will be very very happy to see enemy XV88s with missiles-- easy targets with little ability to fight back! If I need missiles, well, there's a new drone that gives me the ability to take more missiles on practically every unit in the army. Why spend a Heavy Support slot on them, and not even in a particularly efficient configuration?
All they had to do was give us lace on our s8 rail guns. I understand s10 with skyfire is a little too powerful in the sky but s8 is not powerful on land. Lance would have meant we are pening av14 on 4's like we used to and anything lighter than 12 isn't really an issue. Or better yet, just give a -2 s penalty for shooting up in the air.
1-2 AV14/AV13 dead per turn is nerfed O.O I am missing something. . . what other army could boast that?. . . . Anyone? Maybe DE and Eldar but not always. . .
IG! They can actually do much-much more, but hey, hail to the king army of shooting so no surprises here.
1-2 AV14/AV13 dead per turn is nerfed O.O I am missing something. . . what other army could boast that?. . . . Anyone? Maybe DE and Eldar but not always. . .
Anyways AV14 is rather expensive so it should be a bit harder to take down.
A single 25 point Voltaic Staff causes 1,66 glances and 0,55 penetrating hits on a Land Raider. Assuming you equip each of your Night Scythe kill teams with just one, the Necrons can easily take out 3 Land Raiders in one shooting phase and have plenty left over for lighter targets The Eldar can't even get close to the Haywire/Gauss HP reduction madness.
I just read that the early warning system war gear grants interceptor. I'm ok with S8 railguns on Broadsides now.
What's the price of this upgrade and how many units/models can get it? Interceptor gets free shots against all units that come from reserve, not just flyers, so it's probably the strongest special ability in the game at the moment.
I wouldn't have really liked lance either. I mean, if I wanted to play Eldar I really would have, and honestly, I despise any Eldar flavorings to our lore, really. I thought we filled a unique spot in the GW world, and that pretty much was 100% down to str 10/ap1. That instant death rule really kept us from the grave in a lot of situations that might change, might not change.
Lysenis wrote: I find it funny that now that we have to work for our AV14 kills people are upset. Sorry peeps but as Hans_Einberg stated, since it is so expensive points wise it should be hard to take down.
It is hard to take down. By default the Tau were some of the hardest hit by the 6th edition changes with the hull point system and damage rolling. Tau in 4 and 5 were absolute demons to tanks, you were lucky if you made it out of tau's first turn without losing at least 2-3 of yours, in early sixth they're lucky if they took down two. The problem i'm seeing is that we're using our 18" range suits to deal with your 48+" range tanks. That's the biggest problem. Any list that relies on it's tanks just has to set up a small trap and it becomes the 4e deepstriking fusion suit trap, even worse because you've gotta actually get really lucky to take a tank down in one now, even with fusion.
So because you cant take down AV14 like you did in the past you got nerfed? I think it matches the theme of why AV14 SHOULD be so hard to take down.
1-2 AV14/AV13 dead per turn is nerfed O.O I am missing something. . . what other army could boast that?. . . . Anyone? Maybe DE and Eldar but not always. . .
No. A decently lucky average on non-av14 is 1.5ish, but we've got other alternatives for 12's. 13's still pretty much required railguns. The problem here is that our heavy support (non hammerhead) is playing fast attack/elite roles/ranges, or IDMEQ if you're using the railguns - and our elites/(maybe HQ, I haven't seen the full list yet, but obviously we'll keep our generic suit commander... hopefully.) are playing infantry anti-tank ranges. Our fast response suits can easily handle anti-tank roles, but PR/MP is a huge boon to have on steadily advancing troops. When we use up all 3 of our Heavy Support slots, we get 3 shots. Show me any other race who's primary anti-tank weapon comes on one platform, is not twin linked, and sits (current points- pre codex) on 185 points without decoy launchers, flechettte, spines, or any seeker missiles, if that's your thing. If I give it the full array of gear, that's 20 points less than a land raider. For 2 str 1 ap. Which is huge, but not on such a weak platform as that.
It's like all our other shooting in the game has been devolved to fire warrior vs non fire warrior shooting. Sure it looks impressive coming out of us, but when it's firing back in, it's the same thing. S9 vs 13 front S10 vs 14 front, same bs, except theirs comes 2-3 on a tank, twin linked. Your hammerheads will die due to weight of fire long before you can inflict any real hurt. Which means that our heavy support can't hold up it's own weight in anti-tank roles, now our elites and HQ have to pick up the slack, weakening their own power against infantry roles.
1-2 AV14/AV13 dead per turn is nerfed O.O I am missing something. . . what other army could boast that?. . . . Anyone? Maybe DE and Eldar but not always. . .
IG! They can actually do much-much more, but hey, hail to the king army of shooting so no surprises here.
Lord.. IG. /shudder, I just do what I can, I play sneaky, deep strike, Infiltrate, anything I can do to cover ground and not get made into steaming piles of crater by the ludicrous amounts of incoming fire. I get a point for each tank I boom, lose a point for each tank left on the battlefield. It's an outright absolute crushing victory if I end in the positives... >.> lol.
1-2 AV14/AV13 dead per turn is nerfed O.O I am missing something. . . what other army could boast that?. . . . Anyone? Maybe DE and Eldar but not always. . .
Anyways AV14 is rather expensive so it should be a bit harder to take down.
A single 25 point Voltaic Staff causes 1,66 glances and 0,55 penetrating hits on a Land Raider. Assuming you equip each of your Night Scythe kill teams with just one, the Necrons can easily take out 3 Land Raiders in one shooting phase and have plenty left over for lighter targets The Eldar can't even get close to the Haywire/Gauss HP reduction madness.
The solution isn't to give every other army the same capability, it's to nerf Necrons because they're silly.
It's NOT the easiest way though is it? You've got to get the guy into their back field alive (whilst facing probably every single gun in their force) to even get to a tank. Then you have 2 attacks to hit it on a 3+. Granted that's probably going to wreck face it's not a sound tactic.
2 x Hammerheads with one being Longstrike is what I shall be taking. I play IG so face quite a few LRusses. It's funny - in my last game it was my two HHs that took out the Russes first and NOT the Broadside!!!
Also - to those people moaning about "cookie clutter" lists because XV88 got nerfed...ermmm...that's exactly what cookie clutter was. They FORCED you to take XV88s because we had practically no other decent option. No we have so much Strength 7/8/9 weaponary glances and pens with HHs will be quite easy to get IMO. Especially with the new Fusion range and Stealths being bad ass.
EDIT - I CANNOT WAIT to falcon pawnch a tank :-D Completely non-Tau tactic and very risky and will result in many dead Battlesuits the turn after but just to see the reaction on my enemies face will be priceless.
Well I was mostly thinking of the Riptide smash in terms of the odd Land Raider. Which would then put your Riptide next to a squad of assault terminators, so not the brightest of ideas...
For traditional "sit back and shoot" tanks I'll probably use the Razorshark and zoom to their rear.
Is anyone else annoyed about systems that seem stifled because the writer didn't bother to consult the BRB?
Vectored Retro Thrusters give Hit and Run along with Fleet.
If you take drones in your squad you can't use Fleet.
If you don't take drones in your squad Hit and Run is made at I2 rather than I4.
I just read that the early warning system war gear grants interceptor. I'm ok with S8 railguns on Broadsides now.
What's the price of this upgrade and how many units/models can get it? Interceptor gets free shots against all units that come from reserve, not just flyers, so it's probably the strongest special ability in the game at the moment.
It is an 5 points general suit support system. So any suit can take it. Just remember that Broadsides can only take 1 support system, so no Skyfire+Interceptor heavy rail rifles.
I think its incredily hard to be sure we can't come up with unique combos to deal with opposing Av14. Just with a quick thought I came up with the idea of having a suit cmdr with a nero chip in a broadside squad to start the game. (just at the start mind you) Shoot some marklights at that landraider you want dead. 3 marker hits = +1BS and no cover saves. The nero chip gives you tankhunter. So We would be shooting S9 twin linked AP1 railguns at the landraider with rerolls to pen. Thats effectively as good as having BS3 S10 railguns. With target lock those guys can shoot at different targets then their missile drones, and the drones can shoot at light vehicles with their missiles at effective S8 with rerolls to pen as well. Take a drone controller and call it a day. If your feeling froggy, get a ADL and Lascannon (I prefer it with all the helldrakes roaming around) and now the cmdr can ace flyers and have a S10 lascannon for the landraider as well.
I just read that the early warning system war gear grants interceptor. I'm ok with S8 railguns on Broadsides now.
What's the price of this upgrade and how many units/models can get it? Interceptor gets free shots against all units that come from reserve, not just flyers, so it's probably the strongest special ability in the game at the moment.
It is an 5 points general suit support system. So any suit can take it. Just remember that Broadsides can only take 1 support system, so no Skyfire+Interceptor heavy rail rifles.
Wait a second... Skyfire is also a support system? So everything has to choose whether it takes skyfire or interceptor or neither? Interceptor is only strongest when combined with skyfire naturally.
Coyote81 wrote: I think its incredily hard to be sure we can't come up with unique combos to deal with opposing Av14. Just with a quick thought I came up with the idea of having a suit cmdr with a nero chip in a broadside squad to start the game. (just at the start mind you) Shoot some marklights at that landraider you want dead. 3 marker hits = +1BS and no cover saves. The nero chip gives you tankhunter. So We would be shooting S9 twin linked AP1 railguns at the landraider with rerolls to pen. Thats effectively as good as having BS3 S10 railguns. With target lock those guys can shoot at different targets then their missile drones, and the drones can shoot at light vehicles with their missiles at effective S8 with rerolls to pen as well. Take a drone controller and call it a day. If your feeling froggy, get a ADL and Lascannon (I prefer it with all the helldrakes roaming around) and now the cmdr can ace flyers and have a S10 lascannon for the landraider as well.
I just read that the early warning system war gear grants interceptor. I'm ok with S8 railguns on Broadsides now.
What's the price of this upgrade and how many units/models can get it? Interceptor gets free shots against all units that come from reserve, not just flyers, so it's probably the strongest special ability in the game at the moment.
It is an 5 points general suit support system. So any suit can take it. Just remember that Broadsides can only take 1 support system, so no Skyfire+Interceptor heavy rail rifles.
Wait a second... Skyfire is also a support system? So everything has to choose whether it takes skyfire or interceptor or neither? Interceptor is only strongest when combined with skyfire naturally.
Yep. Skyfire is a 20 points general suit support system. Good thing is, that you can combine the two on Crisis suits but then you can have only one weapon (the Crisis can take 3 weapons/support systems in any combination). And no, these items only affect the model using them, and give nothing to its squad.
Does everyone of the "AV14" fan club actually play against that many Landraiders and such?!
Two H-Heads are going to be very versatile whilst still packing the S10 AP1 punch. They have sub munitions and secondary weapons so can provide close support once the tanks are dead.
I play against a lot of Guard, DE, SM and Chaos. Very RARELY do the SM and Chaos use Landraiders - they always prove practically useless and just a big points sink for little return. You have AV14 and much less else on the board? Good - more for me to wipe out. Wanna get close? Meet my fusion blasters. On the way in they are facing some S10 AP1 hits...oh no they will never hit / penetrate - of course they will but sometimes they won't, that's tabletop gaming for you.
Do not underestimate the power of the glance either ;-) I've probably killed more through glancing then outright pen!
Good thing is, that you can combine the two on Crisis suits but then you can have only one weapon (the Crisis can take 3 weapons/support systems in any combination).
Bit pricey to spend 25 points extra per Battlesuit and weaken its armament overall just so that it could cause one S7 missile pod hit against a flyer entering play. It's cool the Tau have these options though.
Coyote81 wrote: I think its incredily hard to be sure we can't come up with unique combos to deal with opposing Av14. Just with a quick thought I came up with the idea of having a suit cmdr with a nero chip in a broadside squad to start the game. (just at the start mind you) Shoot some marklights at that landraider you want dead. 3 marker hits = +1BS and no cover saves. The nero chip gives you tankhunter. So We would be shooting S9 twin linked AP1 railguns at the landraider with rerolls to pen. Thats effectively as good as having BS3 S10 railguns. With target lock those guys can shoot at different targets then their missile drones, and the drones can shoot at light vehicles with their missiles at effective S8 with rerolls to pen as well. Take a drone controller and call it a day. If your feeling froggy, get a ADL and Lascannon (I prefer it with all the helldrakes roaming around) and now the cmdr can ace flyers and have a S10 lascannon for the landraider as well.
Specifics aside, you just need to get creative.
Where is the +1 S coming from?
Unless I'm mistaken, Tank hunter is +1 to pen vehicles and rerolls to pen.
Good thing is, that you can combine the two on Crisis suits but then you can have only one weapon (the Crisis can take 3 weapons/support systems in any combination).
Bit pricey to spend 25 points extra per Battlesuit and weaken its armament overall just so that it could cause one S7 missile pod hit against a flyer entering play.
Well, you can still have it if you want it .
Coyote81:
Tank Hunter only allows an armor penetration re-roll. No +1 S.
I'd be more interested in the Interceptor option on Command Suits (or, frighteningly enough, Riptides), who have more slots to spare than standard Crisis loadouts tend to.
That said, I don't think the Tau Interceptor option will be optimal against Flyers, but rather against other Deep Striking units. In particular, Riptides with Interceptor seem to invalidate practically all big Deep Strike units-- Farsight blobs are dead on arrival if this option is available! Units in Drop Pods are semi-safe and Nurgle Obliterators can grit their teeth and take it to an extent, but everything else is going to have to deploy the old-fashioned way. The prospect of getting nailed by a strength 8 AP 2 large blast at the end of your Movement phase (and hence prior to having a chance to move) is just too brutal for most Deep Strikers.
Interestingly, Daemons seem to be the strongest against this, since their Invulnerable saves don't care about AP2-- but somehow I doubt they'll be too happy about it either!
Good thing is, that you can combine the two on Crisis suits but then you can have only one weapon (the Crisis can take 3 weapons/support systems in any combination).
Bit pricey to spend 25 points extra per Battlesuit and weaken its armament overall just so that it could cause one S7 missile pod hit against a flyer entering play.
Well, you can still have it if you want it .
Coyote81:
Tank Hunter only allows an armor penetration re-roll. No +1 S.
Thanks, guess thats what i get for finally having any army with tank hunter. Now I know. Just like I had to look up monster hunter the other day. Totally forgot it was even in the book
Kingsley wrote: I'd be more interested in the Interceptor option on Command Suits (or, frighteningly enough, Riptides), who have more slots to spare than standard Crisis loadouts tend to.
That said, I don't think the Tau Interceptor option will be optimal against Flyers, but rather against other Deep Striking units. In particular, Riptides with Interceptor seem to invalidate practically all big Deep Strike units-- Farsight blobs are dead on arrival if this option is available! Units in Drop Pods are semi-safe and Nurgle Obliterators can grit their teeth and take it to an extent, but everything else is going to have to deploy the old-fashioned way. The prospect of getting nailed by a strength 8 AP 2 large blast at the end of your Movement phase (and hence prior to having a chance to move) is just too brutal for most Deep Strikers.
Interestingly, Daemons seem to be the strongest against this, since their Invulnerable saves don't care about AP2-- but somehow I doubt they'll be too happy about it either!
I had a similiar thought, i will be taking interceptor over skyfire I think. Its far cheaper and gives me a chance to take out that helldrake/vendetta before it kills a bunch of my units. where as, with skyfire, I have to hope my unit lives thru the flyer attack before I can shoot at it.
If you fire a weapon with interceptor though, you can't fire it in the next shooting phase. Note to self, don't waste your SMS/Plasma Rifles shooting at flyers I guess.
Or use a (very easy to obtain) markerlight and shoot it with a Hammerhead.
Or give the a crisis suit an onagar gauntlet and falcon pawnch the enemy tank. (might as well give the suit a melta, for synergy)
Railhead, with BS5 and cover save stripped, has 13.89% chance of destroying AV14 vehicle with one shot. I agree in principle that AV14 should be hard to destroy, but why then many other armies can spam craploads of anti-AV14 weaponry? Dark Eldar can spam BS4 lances, IG and Space Marines can spam Lascannons and Multi-meltas, Necrons can spam God knows what. Why aren't we allowed to spam Railguns, then? And don't tell me "but we have other means like Piranhas lol". Piranhas suck, and other armies have just as many "alternative" means.
What many people are forgetting that in 5th edition, Railgun could destroy or immobilize vehicles with glancing hits. This was important, particularly against Battlewagon lists. Now, glancing hits usually need multiple turns to have effect, so switch to 6ed already nerfed them somewhat.
Wolfnid420 wrote: Two handed implies a boost in strength does it not? Like a power axe maybe? So kroot when down but realy +2S=5?
No, Two-Handed implies it can't be combined with other weapons for bonus attacks, nothing more. It might give bonus strength, but that's not guaranteed.
Kroot rifle is strength: User, AP5, 2-handed. It does not confer strength bonus, the "bonus" from being two-handed is AP5. It's annoying that people just gush "but they make great cheap snipers!", yeah, but maybe everyone does not always WANT to use sniper option? Aren't regular line Kroot supposed to be useful too? Only minor saving grace I can think of is that Krootox no longer seems to limit Infiltration or Outflanking, or at least I can't see anything hinting to that direction.
I'd be more interested in the Interceptor option on Command Suits (or, frighteningly enough, Riptides
I'm not sure the Riptide has the same wargear options as the Crisis and Broadside teams.
It does. Okay it can't take the shield generator and the vectored retro thrusters, but that's all.
Does the wargear that grants skyfire give the suit the option to use it/not use it, or are you forced to snap shooting ground targets a la Hydras if you purchase the upgrade?
Does the wargear that grants skyfire give the suit the option to use it/not use it, or are you forced to snap shooting ground targets a la Hydras if you purchase the upgrade?
You can choose to use it. So yeah , it isn't that super bad on Riptides w/Ion Cannons.
Coyote81 wrote: I think its incredily hard to be sure we can't come up with unique combos to deal with opposing Av14. Just with a quick thought I came up with the idea of having a suit cmdr with a nero chip in a broadside squad to start the game. (just at the start mind you) Shoot some marklights at that landraider you want dead. 3 marker hits = +1BS and no cover saves. The nero chip gives you tankhunter. So We would be shooting S9 twin linked AP1 railguns at the landraider with rerolls to pen. Thats effectively as good as having BS3 S10 railguns. With target lock those guys can shoot at different targets then their missile drones, and the drones can shoot at light vehicles with their missiles at effective S8 with rerolls to pen as well. Take a drone controller and call it a day. If your feeling froggy, get a ADL and Lascannon (I prefer it with all the helldrakes roaming around) and now the cmdr can ace flyers and have a S10 lascannon for the landraider as well.
Specifics aside, you just need to get creative.
Where is the +1 S coming from?
Tank Hunters
EDIT: ... would have given this you in 4th/5th, but now just gives you a reroll... Dammit, brain, why can I remember what Missile Lock does but not this? >.<
I'd be more interested in the Interceptor option on Command Suits (or, frighteningly enough, Riptides
I'm not sure the Riptide has the same wargear options as the Crisis and Broadside teams.
i will be taking interceptor over skyfire I think. Its far cheaper and gives me a chance to take out that helldrake/vendetta
You just won't hit a barn door without skyfire.
A 1/3 chance to hitting a flyer with twinlinked isn't all that bad. Did it over and over in 6th so far with Tau. Being able to take that shot before the flyer kills my army seems like a better way of playing.
I'd like to know more about Fireblade? Is he a full HQ taking up a slot? What options does he have? Can he get any fancy weapons or other gear? Is that daft looking armour just for show, or can he actually get improved save?
Or use a (very easy to obtain) markerlight and shoot it with a Hammerhead.
Or give the a crisis suit an onagar gauntlet and falcon pawnch the enemy tank. (might as well give the suit a melta, for synergy)
Railhead, with BS5 and cover save stripped, has 13.89% chance of destroying AV14 vehicle with one shot. I agree in principle that AV14 should be hard to destroy, but why then many other armies can spam craploads of anti-AV14 weaponry? Dark Eldar can spam BS4 lances, IG and Space Marines can spam Lascannons and Multi-meltas, Necrons can spam God knows what. Why aren't we allowed to spam Railguns, then? And don't tell me "but we have other means like Piranhas lol". Piranhas suck, and other armies have just as many "alternative" means.
Outside of 12" a multi-melta has exactly the same odds of killing an AV14 vehicle as the new Railgun, except the new Railgun has a 60" range and is twin-linked. If Piranhas and Fusion options suck, then why are multi-meltas so amazing?
Dark Eldar have vehicles (and troops) made of paper. To match the 13.89% chance of one-shotting an AV14 vehicle you'd need 3 BS4 Lascannons. Assuming 3 Railheads, a Marine player would have to get 9 Lascannons to match the firepower. Is this doable? Absolutely. When was the last time you saw a Marine player take 9 Lascannons?
Necrons are silly as hell. Using them as a benchmark for how powerful an army should be won't end well for the game as a whole.
Some stuff about Sky Rays:
So they are technically the same. Seeker Missiles, 2 Networked Markerlights and... a velocity tracker! So it has 2 Skyfire Networked Markerlights. Not bad for AA if you ask me (better than the Broadside that's for sure)!
That all depends on the point cost of the skyray. At 8pts seeker missiles still seem too expensive. I was hoping the ones on the skyray would be unlimited.
Coyote81 wrote: That all depends on the point cost of the skyray. At 8pts seeker missiles still seem too expensive. I was hoping the ones on the skyray would be unlimited.
It is 115 points. And BS4.
And another good news for me: the Broadside high-yield missile pod is twin-linked! Yessss!
And another thing: any Gun Drone in a Drone Squadron can be upgraded to Marker Drone. For free. Doh !
I'll add that the voltaic staff also only has a 12" range so you have pretty much the same problem that people are complaining about with using crisis to pop AV14...sure you pop the raider...then whatever you popped the raider with gets eaten by what was inside/nearby. The differences being that the necrons sacrifice a troops slot rather than a more valuable and limited elite (at least for tau they are more valuable), while the crisis suits can move 2d6" away in the assault phase, leaving them a little less vulnerable to counter-attack.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If Piranhas and Fusion options suck, then why are multi-meltas so amazing?
Because Multi-Meltas are available on: Dreadnoughts, Marines, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Storm Ravens, Devastators, and Land Speeder Typhoons.
The point here is that you can bring a ton of them. Sure Fusion Blasters are available on a lot of stuff too but it is also an inferior weapon to the Multi-Melta to begin with so that is a poor comparison for several reasons. In the argument about the new Broadside Railgun being gak the Lascannon is a better comparison.
Lascannons are available on: Dreadnoughts, Marines, Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons, Devastators, Razorbacks, and Predators.
Proper Railguns (Rail Cannon in new codex) are available on: Hammerhead.
Tau having access to ranged high-strength weaponry only on the Hammerhead is rubbish. Sure, they want the Fusion Blaster to be relevant and the change to 18" accomplishes this but then simultaneously gutting the army's access to ranged high-strength AT is less a move towards options and more a move towards forcing Tau in to a different way of playing.
Options are fun and make for a characterful army (like 5th ed Space Marines); we are seeing this in the heaps of goodies being thrown at infantry through drones and characters. The simultaneous gutting of the book's access to ranged S10 and the improvement of the Fusion Blaster makes sure that Tau will have a single ideal playstyle when confronted with AV14; one-dimensional armies are frustrating and boring.
The real question is if SM players will have to stones to run a Land Raider spam list in this glancetacular edition. Most probably won't but those few that see Tau more often than not may and will single-handedly force that Tau player into a single playstyle because the book lacks variety when dealing with heavy armor. Think Orks and their AV14 woes, but not as bad of course because the Hammerhead still exists.
AtoMaki wrote: Some stuff about Sky Rays: So they are technically the same. Seeker Missiles, 2 Networked Markerlights and... a velocity tracker! So it has 2 Skyfire Networked Markerlights. Not bad for AA if you ask me (better than the Broadside that's for sure)!
So far less points than two Broadsides, far cheaper buy than two Broadsides ($60 vs $100), more accurate, longer range, more survivable, better army synergy due to seekers. Between this and the cost reduction for the Hammerhead the Broadside is now the worst of the old-guard Tau Heavy Support and it is the only one to get a new model. Are they trying to keep people from buying Broadsides?
I understand giving favorite units the shaft so people have to buy new stuff but when the favorite unit gets an absurdly expensive new model kit why go ahead and gut it anyways? Wouldn't they want to make it the coolest, most mandatory Heavy Support choice? I'm not sure if this is good-guy GW buffing tanks that need to be buffed or if it is dumb-guy GW trying their hardest to shoot themselves in the foot.
You know here's a thought points tax to play pathfinders and stealth suits in troops slots. 2 points per model for pathfinders. 5 points for stealth suits Max of 3 troops slots can be "bought" per Foc. Then we can actually get enough mobility and lights to make synergy work. And no a laser designator on a gun should not be heavy. You look down sights hit button unit painted. Goes on priority board unit moves on. Think real world or do none of you have gun experience?
Coyote81 wrote: That all depends on the point cost of the skyray. At 8pts seeker missiles still seem too expensive. I was hoping the ones on the skyray would be unlimited.
It is 115 points. And BS4.
And another good news for me: the Broadside high-yield missile pod is twin-linked! Yessss!
And another thing: any Gun Drone in a Drone Squadron can be upgraded to Marker Drone. For free. Doh !
Whats the limit on the Drone Upgrade? Can all of them do this or just a few?
The real question is if SM players will have to stones to run a Land Raider spam list in this glancetacular edition. Most probably won't but those few that see Tau more often than not may and will single-handedly force that Tau player into a single playstyle because the book lacks variety when dealing with heavy armor. Think Orks and their AV14 woes, but not as bad of course because the Hammerhead still exists.
How is this any different from a Marine player more or less having to get multiple meltaguns up close to reliably kill a Land Raider? Lascannons have roughly a 5.5% chance per BS4 shot outside of cover to kill a Land Raider. It's hardly reliable anti-AV14 firepower.
Spartan_Tau wrote: You know here's a thought points tax to play pathfinders and stealth suits in troops slots. 2 points per model for pathfinders. 5 points for stealth suits Max of 3 troops slots can be "bought" per Foc. Then we can actually get enough mobility and lights to make synergy work. And no a laser designator on a gun should not be heavy. You look down sights hit button unit painted. Goes on priority board unit moves on. Think real world or do none of you have gun experience?
That's not how laser-guided munitions work at all. You've got to continuously mark the target until the weapon hits, hence the heavy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How is this any different from a Marine player more or less having to get multiple meltaguns up close to reliably kill a Land Raider? Lascannons have roughly a 5.5% chance per BS4 shot outside of cover to kill a Land Raider. It's hardly reliable anti-AV14 firepower.
Sure it isn't reliable, but you have it. S10 Railguns don't have much better of a chance to hit or to destroy a AV14 tank but you miss 100% of the shots you don't get to take because the Empire's eggheads downgraded your XV-88's gear.
The point is that S9 and S10 are both gambles against AV14 and when you are playing the odds game one thing ensures success, frequency. Packing 10+ lascannons in a SM list is not only possible but it is easy to do; that is a lot of chances to pop AV14 or at least glance it. Tau now have at most 3 chances while under 2000 points and 6 chances while over 2000 points to pop that AV14.
The point here is that Tau cannot bring enough shots to the table to either realistically glance AV14 to death or penetrate it.
It is an overnight shift from 12 years of established identity.
Riptides can swap their SMS for a twin-linked Fusion Blaster.
Fusion Blaster is now 18". Use your Nova Reactor, get within 9", shoot Landraider, then move away with a 4D6 thrust move.
If the vehicle explodes, after your thurst move you'll be, on average, 23" (9 + [4*3.5]) away from the enemy by this point.
Even if the Nova Reactor fails, or you use it to fire the Fusion Blaster twice, you'll still be 17" away. Average infantry have a potential charge threat range of 18", so they will still need an incredibly lucky charge roll of 11 or 12 to reach you.
Spartan_Tau wrote: Laser guided bombs have a laser in the nose of the bomb. You highlight target till bomb takes over.
No, they have no internal laser and must rely on an external source to paint the target, usually a targeting pod mounted on an aircraft (either the delivery aircraft or a secondary aircraft).
Outside of 12" a multi-melta has exactly the same odds of killing an AV14 vehicle as the new Railgun, except the new Railgun has a 60" range and is twin-linked. If Piranhas and Fusion options suck, then why are multi-meltas so amazing?
Dark Eldar have vehicles (and troops) made of paper. To match the 13.89% chance of one-shotting an AV14 vehicle you'd need 3 BS4 Lascannons. Assuming 3 Railheads, a Marine player would have to get 9 Lascannons to match the firepower. Is this doable? Absolutely. When was the last time you saw a Marine player take 9 Lascannons?
So every Tau player always runs three Railheads, and they have always full Markerlight support? I thought the new Codex was supposed to encourage more varied lists? Look, I don't mind Broadside nerf as such (I used them only because they were necessary, the model was fugly and it was bit boring to play compared to Railhead) but I'm not convinced the Codex brings adequate tools to deal with reduced amount of long-range AT fire. And yes, I do realize you can't look this in a vacuum, you have to look at what the army has gained in respect of dealing with other threats, for example infantry units which those AV14 transports may carry.
9 Lascannons is not all that hard to put in an army. Also remember that many of the Marines' Lascannons are Twin-linked. BS4 TL is better than BS5. Deldar vehicles are paper but they can take lots of them. We can take three, and that means gutting the army of most of anti-aircraft capabilities: no Sky Rays, no Broadsides. Also no Ionheads or Sniper Drones, but I guess those units don't need to be used?
Other random musings... -so Vespid increased in cost, disappointing. Sure they're better, but anything was better than old Vespid, so that doesn't tell much. They are still too expensive for firepower they bring, I don't think they see any more use compared to previous book. Now you can take them without Strain leader? That's not very fluffy. -I remain puzzled why Fire caste HQ's have such a statline, better than most Marine HQ's. Not that they're overpowered or anything, since they're still just T3 with weak armour, but it's just kinda inconsistent for regular Fire caste to have more Wounds and Attacks than 300-year old Marine veteran. -Sky Ray's being limited to six missiles isn't really big downside. I've never used full compliment of missiles during a game anyway. -So Seeker missiles no longer can be called from other units? This is a huge big meh. Whole idea of Seeker missile was that it didn't matter where the missile was, anyone with Markerlight could call one. This was fun & fluffy and gave Fire Warriors kind of "heavy support" option, even if it wasn't that good. -Sniper drones are now BS5 as long as controller is alive? Wow, too bad nobody will ever use them.
See that? It's little rules like that, that make me think that Vetock really does "get" the Tau. Rules like that, coupled with Darkstrider's tactical retreat rule and the grav-inhibitor drone. Each one of those takes a core element of the 6e rules, and makes them work more effectively for the Tau.
We don't need to make up new rules out of our butts, we just get rules that help us avoid the very situation that Tau are bad at. That rocks.
I have completely opposite opinion. Vetock does not "get" Tau. If you have read his other Codex (Dark Angels), the Tau book seems just a variation of same. In fact, even some of the rules are exactly same! (for example, DA have Dakka banner, Tau have Dakka dude).
Outside of 12" a multi-melta has exactly the same odds of killing an AV14 vehicle as the new Railgun, except the new Railgun has a 60" range and is twin-linked. If Piranhas and Fusion options suck, then why are multi-meltas so amazing?
Dark Eldar have vehicles (and troops) made of paper. To match the 13.89% chance of one-shotting an AV14 vehicle you'd need 3 BS4 Lascannons. Assuming 3 Railheads, a Marine player would have to get 9 Lascannons to match the firepower. Is this doable? Absolutely. When was the last time you saw a Marine player take 9 Lascannons?
So every Tau player always runs three Railheads, and they have always full Markerlight support?
No, I'm saying that non-melta or similar shooting never has been very good against AV14 anyway.
Vanilla Space Marines can take lascannons on 9 platforms (counting Venerable Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts as the same, otherwise 10). Tactical Marines, Sternguard, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, Predators, Land Raiders, Devestators, Storm Ravens and Storm Talons. Of these, Sternguard should never ever run with Lascannons, Land Raiders aren't taken for their firepower, Dreadnoughts aren't taken with Lascannons because they're better as anti-light AV Riflemen, Devestator Lascannons cost a metric crapton more than they're worth and Predator Lascannons cost quite a fair bit as well. This leaves Tactical Marines, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons and Razorbacks as useful Lascannon platforms.
Can you spam Lascannons? Yes, absolutely. Again, when was the last time you saw anyone do that? Marines can get S10 AP1 Ordnance Large Blasts too, but no one ever takes them.
No, I'm saying that non-melta or similar shooting never has been very good against AV14 anyway.
Yes, that's why recipe for victory has always been to wait until Battlewagons and Land Raiders get within Fusion blaster range, and tanks were dealt with Piranhas performing frontal charges across the field, or deep striking melta suits. <- sarcasm.
Vanilla Space Marines can take lascannons on 9 platforms (counting Venerable Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts as the same, otherwise 10). Tactical Marines, Sternguard, Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, Predators, Land Raiders, Devestators, Storm Ravens and Storm Talons. Of these, Sternguard should never ever run with Lascannons, Land Raiders aren't taken for their firepower, Dreadnoughts aren't taken with Lascannons because they're better as anti-light AV Riflemen, Devestator Lascannons cost a metric crapton more than they're worth and Predator Lascannons cost quite a fair bit as well. This leaves Tactical Marines, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons and Razorbacks as useful Lascannon platforms.
Lascannon costs aren't the same in all Marine books: newer ones have cheaper. In Dark Angels book, Lascannons actually aren't that expensive. Lascannon Predator for example costs about same as Railhead in the new book, has same armour, same mobility (!).
No, I'm saying that non-melta or similar shooting never has been very good against AV14 anyway.
Yes, that's why recipe for victory has always been to wait until Battlewagons and Land Raiders get within Fusion blaster range, and tanks were dealt with Piranhas performing frontal charges across the field, or deep striking melta suits. <- sarcasm.
What used to be is irrelevant (especially considering Battlewagons only have side-AV 12...). If the only option for killing such things was to spam S10 shots (which it wasn't, but whatever) then that's the option people are going to take. There's loads of options now though. Sure, the Tau capability to fight Land Raiders or Monoliths at long range might have decreased. Considering how hard it looks like it's going to be to get into CC with Tau in the first place that might not actually matter that much. Your anti-infantry firepower looks as though it's skyrocketing in an edition where foot lists are very popular and you have ample ways to deal with low- and medium-AV vehicles. You can't have it all.
Lascannon costs aren't the same in all Marine books: newer ones have cheaper. In Dark Angels book, Lascannons actually aren't that expensive. Lascannon Predator for example costs about same as Railhead in the new book, has same armour, same mobility (!).
If by "same mobility" you mean "can move 6" and fire it's main weapon and snapshot the rest" then yes. The Hammerhead is still a Skimmer and has better survivability and can get Markerlight support to become much better. The Railcannon is better against every single AV target other than fliers when compared to a twin-linked BS4 Lascannon anyway, with Markerlight support that's only going to turn more in favour of the Railhead, especially once we accout for cover saves.
Commander w/ a drone controller and 2 missile drones w/bodyguards with 2 missile drones each is sick. That's 12 BS5(assuming boss is BS5) St7 shots just from the drones....Or alternatively 6 Markerlights that hit on 2+ for other units to use.
It's a big thing to note that only a single drone controller is needed for all the drones in a unit and they use the highest BS drone controller equipped model.
Interceptor on the drones on the Tau Bomber are pretty huge too. I can see a lot of opportunity on the bombers.
Riptide is looking silly good though I'm not sure how often I'll be using his drones.
Hammerheads are dirt cheap heavy support.
There is a ton of good information there. I just got even more excited.
Spartan_Tau wrote: Laser guided bombs have a laser in the nose of the bomb. You highlight target till bomb takes over.
No, they have no internal laser and must rely on an external source to paint the target, usually a targeting pod mounted on an aircraft (either the delivery aircraft or a secondary aircraft).
This is only partly true Maelstrom, while yes some laser guided missiles depend on internal lasers that are guided from the aircraft, there are ones that operate independently if no further signals come from its firing craft, or other crafts authorized to abort/change its target (depending on the type of target, target lock would allow it to follow its target even if its firer was killed immediately after firing the missile. There are newer missiles that are guided by independent lasers. These newer ones can also be fired independently from the craft they are on. However while the technology exists it is not widely used due to the fact that the average foot soldier does not have the authority to call a strike on possible targets that have the destructive power as missiles.
What used to be is irrelevant (especially considering Battlewagons only have side-AV 12...). If the only option for killing such things was to spam S10 shots (which it wasn't, but whatever)
Yes, Battlewagon is just AV12 side. Which is why best way to deal with it was to move Hammerhead 12" to get a side shot...
then that's the option people are going to take. There's loads of options now though. Sure, the Tau capability to fight Land Raiders or Monoliths at long range might have decreased. Considering how hard it looks like it's going to be to get into CC with Tau in the first place that might not actually matter that much.
Nice, so what do we do about Predators, Leman Russes, Psyriflemen, Soul Grinders etc?
If by "same mobility" you mean "can move 6" and fire it's main weapon and snapshot the rest" then yes. The Hammerhead is still a Skimmer and has better survivability and can get Markerlight support to become much better. The Railcannon is better against every single AV target other than fliers when compared to a twin-linked BS4 Lascannon anyway, with Markerlight support that's only going to turn more in favour of the Railhead, especially once we accout for cover saves.
Except Predator has three BS4 Lascannons, one of which is Twin-linked. And Hammerhead being a skimmer means nothing - it's too slow & big to move over terrain pieces, unless you move 12" when you can't shoot. And hey, there are Markerlights again. "But we are just BS3! -Use Markerlights! -But we have less Railguns now! -Use Markerlights!"
So this is the new codex with its' increased "variety"? Forced synergy, make everything suck so you HAVE to use core element of the army.
boy wonder wrote: do we know for a fact that drone controller covers ALL drones in a squad?
Pictures above include the drone controller rule:
"All Gun Drones, Marker Drones, and Sniper Drones in the same unit as a model with a drone conroller use the bearers Ballistic skill instead of their own. If a unit contains several Drone Controllers, use the highest ballistic skill amongst the bearers."
This is assuming the missile drones are considered a sub-type of gun drone. If not then the markerlight thing will still be awesome.
Oh, and the sniper team is silly with all the snipers being BS5 thanks to the marksman and his controller.
What used to be is irrelevant (especially considering Battlewagons only have side-AV 12...). If the only option for killing such things was to spam S10 shots (which it wasn't, but whatever)
Yes, Battlewagon is just AV12 side. Which is why best way to deal with it was to move Hammerhead 12" to get a side shot...
then that's the option people are going to take. There's loads of options now though. Sure, the Tau capability to fight Land Raiders or Monoliths at long range might have decreased. Considering how hard it looks like it's going to be to get into CC with Tau in the first place that might not actually matter that much.
Nice, so what do we do about Predators, Leman Russes, Psyriflemen, Soul Grinders etc?
If by "same mobility" you mean "can move 6" and fire it's main weapon and snapshot the rest" then yes. The Hammerhead is still a Skimmer and has better survivability and can get Markerlight support to become much better. The Railcannon is better against every single AV target other than fliers when compared to a twin-linked BS4 Lascannon anyway, with Markerlight support that's only going to turn more in favour of the Railhead, especially once we accout for cover saves.
Except Predator has three BS4 Lascannons, one of which is Twin-linked. And Hammerhead being a skimmer means nothing - it's too slow & big to move over terrain pieces, unless you move 12" when you can't shoot. And hey, there are Markerlights again. "But we are just BS3! -Use Markerlights! -But we have less Railguns now! -Use Markerlights!"
So this is the new codex with its' increased "variety"? Forced synergy, make everything suck so you HAVE to use core element of the army.
Hm, maybe just wait for the actual codex and play some games before you rage hard?...
Maybe some other strategies turn out to be valid vs av14 that you don't even know of yet. 0o
and 6/8 markerdrones as fast attack option. Attach the commander to the unit and you have got 8/10 BS5 markerlightshots, protected by the commander with 2+ save,4++ . And if i´m not missing something, they can reposition after the shooting phase, right?
Its sad to use an HQ slot like this, but it could be potentially a good option for durable/cheap/effective markerlights.
Hulksmash wrote: Commander w/ a drone controller and 2 missile drones w/bodyguards with 2 missile drones each is sick. That's 12 BS5(assuming boss is BS5) St7 shots just from the drones....Or alternatively 6 Markerlights that hit on 2+ for other units to use.
You don't need bodyguards, just buy a Marker drone squadron and stick your commander into it.
IPS wrote: [
Hm, maybe just wait for the actual codex and play some games before you rage hard?...
Maybe some other strategies turn out to be valid vs av14 that you don't even know of yet. 0o
Sure, maybe they do, but I'm not seeing any, and alternatives people suggest are silly.
If I built a Tau army right now there's no question I'd take three Riptides. Not only are the models fantastic (and heavily convertable/modifieable) but seem absurdly hard to kill. Tons of T6 wounds with a 2+ save, cover and invulnerable saves and FNP on top of it all. Drones too if you insist on gathering as many eggs in the same basket as you can. I think the most reasonable way of dealing with Riptides is somehow assaulting them since they are garbage in close combat and can't leave it like vehicles can, but it'll be easier said than done considering their mobility and that other Tau stuff will get on the way.
then go and buy a necron army to gauss av14 to death.. or a marine army full of lascannons.
tau have limited ability to deal with high av.. this is a fact that you cannot change.
these are the tools you have to do the job.. railcannon,fusion blaster,emp grenades,crisis power fist,seeker missiles,riptide smash attack,overcharged ion and heavy rail rifles.
Spartan_Tau wrote: You know here's a thought points tax to play pathfinders and stealth suits in troops slots. 2 points per model for pathfinders. 5 points for stealth suits Max of 3 troops slots can be "bought" per Foc. Then we can actually get enough mobility and lights to make synergy work. And no a laser designator on a gun should not be heavy. You look down sights hit button unit painted. Goes on priority board unit moves on. Think real world or do none of you have gun experience?
I have trained with them. You have to keep the lock going to "paint a target". How else would munitions and systems know what their looking at. Break a laser off of the target equals no laser on the target equals nobody knows where the target is anymore. Have you any real laser targeting experience?
Also we are not playing a real life battle simulator but a silly board game.
) :
Are all of you naysayers forgetting that this is a game, on a table, with terrain, and you use dice, to you know, roll and stuff.
