Page 103 broadside, 3 bullet:
Any broadside shas'ui or shas'vre may exchange his twin-linked heavy rail rifle for a twin-linked high yield missile pod......................free
so 4 Broadsides vs front armour of a dragon is 16 TL S7 shots, 12 hit, 2 glances, 2 pens, odds are in the broadsides favour that he wont roll 2 5++s.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the sample list I made
Page 103 broadside, 3 bullet:
Any broadside shas'ui or shas'vre may exchange his twin-linked heavy rail rifle for a twin-linked high yield missile pod......................free
so 4 Broadsides vs front armour of a dragon is 16 TL S7 shots, 12 hit, 2 glances, 2 pens, odds are in the broadsides favour that he wont roll 2 5++s.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the sample list I made
Awesome, then it really is a no brainer choice over the HRR. Pity the HRR model looks so much cooler though.
Pretty much, there is almost no reason to take heavy rail rifles at all. Even against av 13 its better to take HYM, ran the numbers and its 6 missilesides vs 12 riflesides.
Interesting though, Glad to see the BSF and Multitracker come stock on suits
though the wording on bomb regeneration leaves me wondering...2+ for new one, but on a roll of 1 no more can be made
fair enough though, we still get more bombs than most flyers assuming one doesn't have bad luck from the get go.
Hans_Einberg wrote: Interesting though, Glad to see the BSF and Multitracker come stock on suits
though the wording on bomb regeneration leaves me wondering...2+ for new one, but on a roll of 1 no more can be made
fair enough though, we still get more bombs than most flyers assuming one doesn't have bad luck from the get go.
From what I saw, it was just that turn, wasn't it? So like, it comes with it's huge stock of bombs, but if it fails it can just try again next turn.
Awesome, then it really is a no brainer choice over the HRR. Pity the HRR model looks so much cooler though.
Pretty much, there is almost no reason to take heavy rail rifles at all. Even against av 13 its better to take HYM, ran the numbers and its 6 missilesides vs 12 riflesides.
The thing is that heavy rail rifles will outrange those high yield missile pods by quite a bit, I wouldn't call 24" more range negligible.
Well your average board length is only about 72 inches, take the average 12" deployment (or more depending on deployment, and you can ensure that your suits can usually always be striking at what you're aiming. 48 inches isn't hard to negotiate around. (Assuming both parties take up the full 12, as pretty much everyone but Tau will.)
Playing on other board types of course then you'd need to take these things into consideration. The biggest thing here is just volume of fire sent out. If you're not facing a heavy pointed average t4 army, then # of wounds usually == greater results. If you're countering another Tau force or something, then by all means, mass railsides and start eating crisis suits whenever possible. Still, your average result will probably be >> with the missiles.
Awesome, then it really is a no brainer choice over the HRR. Pity the HRR model looks so much cooler though.
Pretty much, there is almost no reason to take heavy rail rifles at all. Even against av 13 its better to take HYM, ran the numbers and its 6 missilesides vs 12 riflesides.
The thing is that heavy rail rifles will outrange those high yield missile pods by quite a bit, I wouldn't call 24" more range negligible.
Hans_Einberg wrote: Interesting though, Glad to see the BSF and Multitracker come stock on suits
though the wording on bomb regeneration leaves me wondering...2+ for new one, but on a roll of 1 no more can be made
fair enough though, we still get more bombs than most flyers assuming one doesn't have bad luck from the get go.
From what I saw, it was just that turn, wasn't it? So like, it comes with it's huge stock of bombs, but if it fails it can just try again next turn.
I checked again...your supposed to make your roll after you drop the bomb, and it says specifically no more bombs can be created on a 1....so assuming you have no more bombs left you cannot drop them and thus cannot make the roll....hopefully this will be clarified by someone else or maybe even a FAQ
Killing Heldrakes with hull point spam is all fine and dandy, but a Railside is almost 50% more likely to outright destroy the Heldrake per shot. Bearing in mind that the Heldrake can regenerate Hull Points, the choice might not be so clear-cut after all.
There are conflicting reports about Seekers but one report states that the Seeker can be fired by its platform as if it were a standard weapon
You need 1 marker light hit per missile, and you expend it for shooting (so, if you hit with 3 marker lights and therefore get 3 marker light counters on your target you can for example use them to shoot 1 seeker missile and remove the cover save for that said seeker missile) and although seekers don't require LOS and have BS5 the vehicle can't then shoot any other target else with other weapons.
There are conflicting reports about Seekers but one report states that the Seeker can be fired by its platform as if it were a standard weapon
No there aren't. The Seeker entry is pretty clear, I'm sorry. You need 1 marker light hit per missile, and you expend it for shooting (so, if you hit with 3 marker lights and therefore get 3 marker light counters on your target you can for example use them to shoot 1 seeker missile and remove the cover save for that said seeker missile) and although seekers don't require LOS and have BS5 the vehicle can't then target anything else with other weapons.
I think there is a big difference between the Marker Light Seeker Entry your taling about and the Seeker missile itself having a weapon profile and therefore can be shot just like any other weapon.
Chrysis wrote: Pretty sure you expend the counters, so there's no way it could stack all those effects on two markerlight hits.
There are conflicting reports about Seekers but one report states that the Seeker can be fired by its platform as if it were a standard weapon, without Markerlight guidance. It loses the BS5 and other benefits it would usually gain but, in the case of the Sky Ray, "dumb-firing" the missiles may be a great thing.
As previously suggested, you fire the Networked Markerlights at the flyer with a 75% chance to hit. You then "dumb-fire" as many missiles as you like (assuming the Sky Ray did not move of course) and use whatever Markerlight hits you got to buff the entire salvo. This would make firing six missiles at either BS5 or BS4 with ignoring cover possible.
However, this tactic requires Skyray not to move. Enemy flyers of course attempt to destroy Skyray first. Plus, Markerlight has just 36" range.
If i recall, you can put the interceptor support system on the interceptor flyer right? That plus 2 skyfire/interceptor Bsides with rails will do me for anti-air.
Anyone else looked at sniper drones and thought OMG with the new markerlight rules? For the points, they are perfect TEQ killers being BS5, S6 and AP1.
A rough ballpark list for 1500 (could be wildly over)...
Cadre Fireblade
2 riptides (unsure on loadout, possibly ion+fusion)
2x 10 pathfinders (may drop to 8, wait and see on that)
1 Interceptor w/interceptor upgrade
sniper team w/ 6 extra drones
2x 2/3 broadsides (1 sqd anti-flyer upgrades)
around 4-5x 10 firewarriors.
gives me 2-4 skyfire/interceptor models, enough AP1 to kill anything i point at and enough firewarriors to form a box of unassaultable death.
Quick question for those in the know, railrifles are rapidfire 36" right?
jamin p wrote: Anyone else looked at sniper drones and thought OMG with the new markerlight rules? For the points, they are perfect TEQ killers being BS5, S6 and AP1.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
jamin p wrote: Anyone else looked at sniper drones and thought OMG with the new markerlight rules? For the points, they are perfect TEQ killers being BS5, S6 and AP1.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
Seekers are broken if they dont FAQ them to fire seperate from the vehicle. All other codex versions had the skyray as only vehicle able to control its seeker missiles. i hope they fix this.
jamin p wrote: Anyone else looked at sniper drones and thought OMG with the new markerlight rules? For the points, they are perfect TEQ killers being BS5, S6 and AP1.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
jamin p wrote: Anyone else looked at sniper drones and thought OMG with the new markerlight rules? For the points, they are perfect TEQ killers being BS5, S6 and AP1.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
Maybe not then lol. Still viable as a unit i'm sure in certain builds or against certain lists such as MC spam but probably not what i'm looking for. Deffo swap these out for some TEQ killing stuff now then, most likely *sigh* crisis suits as with any other list.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
Completely agree with this. Plus if you want snipers, you have Kroot at 7 pts a pop. Taking two squads of 20 doesn't cost you many points, and will give you tons of chances to get rending compared to the 3 (or 6 at 24") shots.
Twin Plasma, some other weapon, Shield Generator, Drone Controller and Shield Drones will do nicely.
Just an FYI, a done controller means gun, shield and marker drones can use the users BS. So you don't really need it for SDs, feel free to have your Stim Injector
I think they actually made sniper drones worse. Yeah, it's BS5, but it's also in our only slot for reliable ranged anti-tank weaponry. It's even more vital not to crowd those slots, and I can't imagine sniper rifles having a place in it. I would have considered it if they stuck with rail rifles, or maybe sticking them in a slot that doesn't limit my options for anti-tank and anti-air.
Seriously though, does any other army have sniper rifles in their heavy support slot? I think my biggest complaint for this codex is they fixed so little of the old problems. Kroot suck in combat, Vespid are out shined by everything else, suits are the pinnacle of a shooting army but terrible shots, markerlights are almost required, markerlights don't help the squad, limited troop options, lack of a decent transport, markerlights are heavy weapons on a unit that is supposed to be mobile, and seeker missiles are too silly to really take seriously.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
I disagree.
Heavy Support isn't all that great. I think Riptides fill the role of anti-armour so well that there's absolutely no need for Hammerheads.
Sorry to go singing the praises of the Riptide again but it's just so versatile. Nova charged Heavy Burst Cannon gives you 12 shots, with two markerlight counters you're hitting on 2+, that's around 10 hits. Now, you have a very good chance that a couple of those hits will rend, a couple of these can reliably deal with AV14 without even firing their twin-linked Fusion Blaster (Which will surely deal with it). For all the points of a Hammerhead you're getting a single S10 shot.
Broadsides are ok, they're quite expensive for what they do, but they do bring some Skyfire to the table. I'd maybe take a unit of 3 on top of a Quad-Gun and leave it at that for my anti-air.
Sniper Drone teams can have three markerlights per unit, and unlike most of the other markerlight-equipped units in the army, these are BS5, so you have some reliably placed markerlights.
18 shots at up to 24" hitting on 2+ with rending is nothing to sniff at. Majority T4 with Stealth, and relatively cheap for what they bring to the table.
Savageconvoy wrote: I think they actually made sniper drones worse. Yeah, it's BS5, but it's also in our only slot for reliable ranged anti-tank weaponry. It's even more vital not to crowd those slots, and I can't imagine sniper rifles having a place in it. I would have considered it if they stuck with rail rifles, or maybe sticking them in a slot that doesn't limit my options for anti-tank and anti-air.
Seriously though, does any other army have sniper rifles in their heavy support slot? I think my biggest complaint for this codex is they fixed so little of the old problems. Kroot suck in combat, Vespid are out shined by everything else, suits are the pinnacle of a shooting army but terrible shots, markerlights are almost required, markerlights don't help the squad, limited troop options, lack of a decent transport, markerlights are heavy weapons on a unit that is supposed to be mobile, and seeker missiles are too silly to really take seriously.
The Tau have never had the functionality that the sniper drones now bring to the table. They are strictly better and you're trying to tell me they aren't? They shoot farther, rapid fire so they can move and have sniper rules so they can rend. The only thing the rail rifle had was AP3, and even that was only helpful against MEQ.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
Completely agree with this. Plus if you want snipers, you have Kroot at 7 pts a pop. Taking two squads of 20 doesn't cost you many points, and will give you tons of chances to get rending compared to the 3 (or 6 at 24") shots.
For a start Kroot Rifles are half the range. You don't get BS5 Markerlights in a unit of Kroot, and Kroot will miss half of the time without using up markerlight counters. Let's be honest, you're not going to waste markerlight counters on Kroot...the great thing about the sniper drone team is that they reliably provide markerlight counters without being reliant on markerlights themselves.
Between 12" and 24", 20 Kroot with the upgrade will get 20 shots and 10 hits. They cost around 140 points.
6 Sniper Drones and 2 controllers costs 120 points, less than the Kroot. That's 12 shots and 10 hits on average + 2 Markerlight counters for an additional unit to use.
So yeah, there's the math, Sniper Drones are better, and cheaper than Kroot when it comes to shooting, unless you're within 12" of the target.
Twin Plasma, some other weapon, Shield Generator, Drone Controller and Shield Drones will do nicely.
Just an FYI, a done controller means gun, shield and marker drones can use the users BS. So you don't really need it for SDs, feel free to have your Stim Injector
I am still having difficulty figuring out which flyer to go with....they offer interchangeability for the most part either by swiveling in to place or easy mod changes to be made... with the one exception that there are only 4 ion rifles in the kit, so its either for your quad gun or your interceptor drones....real tough call on that...
what say all of you? has anyone made their decision yet?
i suppose one could proxy a bomber as a fighter and vice versa but...it kinda takes the fun out of it
YotsubaSnake wrote: The Tau have never had the functionality that the sniper drones now bring to the table. They are strictly better and you're trying to tell me they aren't? They shoot farther, rapid fire so they can move and have sniper rules so they can rend. The only thing the rail rifle had was AP3, and even that was only helpful against MEQ.
I can agree that snipers are better at taking down infantry, but that wasn't my point. My point was that with the reduction to the broadside and not being able to take tank squadrons, that now our Heavy Support slots are really sensitive and need to be filled correctly. There are plenty of ways to deal with infantry, including outflanking sniper kroot and the various overcharge blasts. So what are you going to do? Bring elite, troop, FA, AND Heavy Support options for anti-infantry purposes? Why? HS is limited, bring your AA and anti-tank and let the others handle infantry.
Savageconvoy wrote: I think they actually made sniper drones worse. Yeah, it's BS5, but it's also in our only slot for reliable ranged anti-tank weaponry. It's even more vital not to crowd those slots, and I can't imagine sniper rifles having a place in it. I would have considered it if they stuck with rail rifles, or maybe sticking them in a slot that doesn't limit my options for anti-tank and anti-air.
Seriously though, does any other army have sniper rifles in their heavy support slot? I think my biggest complaint for this codex is they fixed so little of the old problems. Kroot suck in combat, Vespid are out shined by everything else, suits are the pinnacle of a shooting army but terrible shots, markerlights are almost required, markerlights don't help the squad, limited troop options, lack of a decent transport, markerlights are heavy weapons on a unit that is supposed to be mobile, and seeker missiles are too silly to really take seriously.
I was hoping they'd end up like Scouts in the Troop Section. I'd give up the stealth or pay points for it to make that a reality. Although most armies only have 2 troop options.
Also, with the new partial squad movement rules, can't sniper drone's relocate as long as they stay in coherency with the immobile spotters? JSJ snipers sounds fun.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
Completely agree with this. Plus if you want snipers, you have Kroot at 7 pts a pop. Taking two squads of 20 doesn't cost you many points, and will give you tons of chances to get rending compared to the 3 (or 6 at 24") shots.
For a start Kroot Rifles are half the range. You don't get BS5 Markerlights in a unit of Kroot, and Kroot will miss half of the time without using up markerlight counters. Let's be honest, you're not going to waste markerlight counters on Kroot...the great thing about the sniper drone team is that they reliably provide markerlight counters without being reliant on markerlights themselves.
Between 12" and 24", 20 Kroot with the upgrade will get 20 shots and 10 hits. They cost around 140 points.
6 Sniper Drones and 2 controllers costs 120 points, less than the Kroot. That's 12 shots and 10 hits on average + 2 Markerlight counters for an additional unit to use.
So yeah, there's the math, Sniper Drones are better, and cheaper than Kroot when it comes to shooting, unless you're within 12" of the target.
So what you're saying is that for 20 pts, I can have a troop choice that can claim and not take up one of my heavy support slots? It also gets double as effective over the sniper drones at 12" range? I'd take that.
YotsubaSnake wrote: The Tau have never had the functionality that the sniper drones now bring to the table. They are strictly better and you're trying to tell me they aren't? They shoot farther, rapid fire so they can move and have sniper rules so they can rend. The only thing the rail rifle had was AP3, and even that was only helpful against MEQ.
I can agree that snipers are better at taking down infantry, but that wasn't my point. My point was that with the reduction to the broadside and not being able to take tank squadrons, that now our Heavy Support slots are really sensitive and need to be filled correctly. There are plenty of ways to deal with infantry, including outflanking sniper kroot and the various overcharge blasts. So what are you going to do? Bring elite, troop, FA, AND Heavy Support options for anti-infantry purposes? Why? HS is limited, bring your AA and anti-tank and let the others handle infantry.
I think you're missing an even greater point here. The elite slots have always been just as good at anti-tank as heavy support. Infact, heavy support was always a bit better at anti-infantry because of the Hammerhead. The broadside was the only reliable anti-tank weapon in heavy support and it got a nerf. So the heavy supports are now really good at trashing enemy troops. So, how do I kill tanks? I hear that Fusion blasters got a buff and that new riptide suit is pretty awesome. Missile pods stayed the same, so it seems to me that Elites got even better at precision anti-armor. You can even take some of those elites in an HQ slot if you're so worried about that. That gives you up to 5 FOC slots of the most consistent anti-armor in the codex and you're complaining about heavy support not filling the role?
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
Completely agree with this. Plus if you want snipers, you have Kroot at 7 pts a pop. Taking two squads of 20 doesn't cost you many points, and will give you tons of chances to get rending compared to the 3 (or 6 at 24") shots.
For a start Kroot Rifles are half the range. You don't get BS5 Markerlights in a unit of Kroot, and Kroot will miss half of the time without using up markerlight counters. Let's be honest, you're not going to waste markerlight counters on Kroot...the great thing about the sniper drone team is that they reliably provide markerlight counters without being reliant on markerlights themselves.
Between 12" and 24", 20 Kroot with the upgrade will get 20 shots and 10 hits. They cost around 140 points.
6 Sniper Drones and 2 controllers costs 120 points, less than the Kroot. That's 12 shots and 10 hits on average + 2 Markerlight counters for an additional unit to use.
So yeah, there's the math, Sniper Drones are better, and cheaper than Kroot when it comes to shooting, unless you're within 12" of the target.
I think that heavy support is no longer our anti armor (oddly). Elite spots are now our heavy hitters. If markerlights are as important as they seem to be ATM I'd prefer to use 4 markers to boost a unit with a massive amount of shots vs 3 hits from a Broadside or 1 hit from a hammerhead.
MajinMalak wrote: So what you're saying is that for 20 pts, I can have a troop choice that can claim and not take up one of my heavy support slots? It also gets double as effective over the sniper drones at 12" range? I'd take that.
I'm not saying Kroot are a bad choice; I like them. More that the Sniper Drone Team are an effective and viable unit that bring a lot to the table, and that the competition in Heavy Support isn't really as hot as people are making out. Broadsides and Hammerheads are just a bit meh. As the above poster has pointed out, the best anti-armour in the Codex resides in Elites.
I'd rather have the three markerlights at BS5 to boost the rest of my army.
YotsubaSnake wrote: The Tau have never had the functionality that the sniper drones now bring to the table. They are strictly better and you're trying to tell me they aren't? They shoot farther, rapid fire so they can move and have sniper rules so they can rend. The only thing the rail rifle had was AP3, and even that was only helpful against MEQ.
I can agree that snipers are better at taking down infantry, but that wasn't my point. My point was that with the reduction to the broadside and not being able to take tank squadrons, that now our Heavy Support slots are really sensitive and need to be filled correctly. There are plenty of ways to deal with infantry, including outflanking sniper kroot and the various overcharge blasts. So what are you going to do? Bring elite, troop, FA, AND Heavy Support options for anti-infantry purposes? Why? HS is limited, bring your AA and anti-tank and let the others handle infantry.
I think you're missing an even greater point here. The elite slots have always been just as good at anti-tank as heavy support. Infact, heavy support was always a bit better at anti-infantry because of the Hammerhead. The broadside was the only reliable anti-tank weapon in heavy support and it got a nerf. So the heavy supports are now really good at trashing enemy troops. So, how do I kill tanks? I hear that Fusion blasters got a buff and that new riptide suit is pretty awesome. Missile pods stayed the same, so it seems to me that Elites got even better at precision anti-armor. You can even take some of those elites in an HQ slot if you're so worried about that. That gives you up to 5 FOC slots of the most consistent anti-armor in the codex and you're complaining about heavy support not filling the role?
MajinMalak wrote: So what you're saying is that for 20 pts, I can have a troop choice that can claim and not take up one of my heavy support slots? It also gets double as effective over the sniper drones at 12" range? I'd take that.
I'm not saying Kroot are a bad choice; I like them. More that the Sniper Drone Team are an effective and viable unit that bring a lot to the table, and that the competition in Heavy Support isn't really as hot as people are making out. Broadsides and Hammerheads are just a bit meh. As the above poster has pointed out, the best anti-armour in the Codex resides in Elites.
I'd rather have the three markerlights at BS5 to boost the rest of my army.
I'll agree with some of that. Elites do seem better at Anti-Tank with fusion and Mr. Riptide. Heavy does seem reserved for Anti-Infantry.
I'm just not sure if I believe sniper teams are effective. I'll reserve final judgement after I use them (which I'll give them a try a few times), but considering for roughly same pts (starting at 125) I could have a ionhead with a S8 AP3 large blast, not sure those snipers are worth it. Maybe for the markerlights ... maybe.
Heavy Support isn't all that great. I think Riptides fill the role of anti-armour so well that there's absolutely no need for Hammerheads.
Sorry to go singing the praises of the Riptide again but it's just so versatile. Nova charged Heavy Burst Cannon gives you 12 shots, with two markerlight counters you're hitting on 2+, that's around 10 hits. Now, you have a very good chance that a couple of those hits will rend, a couple of these can reliably deal with AV14 without even firing their twin-linked Fusion Blaster (Which will surely deal with it). For all the points of a Hammerhead you're getting a single S10 shot.
...and Riptide's cannon has Range of only 36" (as do Markerlights), and Nova charge works on 3+. Sounds more like desperation maneuver to me.
I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam. They weren't pushover even with S10 Railguns.
The fact that people are arguing about what to use in their limited FOC slots is an indicator that the codex is overall more varied, interesting and capable than before.
Savageconvoy wrote: I think they actually made sniper drones worse. Yeah, it's BS5, but it's also in our only slot for reliable ranged anti-tank weaponry. It's even more vital not to crowd those slots, and I can't imagine sniper rifles having a place in it. I would have considered it if they stuck with rail rifles, or maybe sticking them in a slot that doesn't limit my options for anti-tank and anti-air..
It is disappointing, but there is something else to consider here. Those Sniper Drones use Pulse weapons. Pulse Weapons can be boosted by having an Ethereal nearby. Yes while a Sniper Drone team might not do so well versus anything with an AV higher than 11, a barrage of 18 BS 5, poisoned, rending shots at 48 inches and 27 of them at 24 inches will rip up clusters of infantry and monstrous creatures nicely. What's more is that same barrage will have a goodly number of shots that can be directed at characters inside a formation. Very few units targeted by this unit will be able to get away without having to take a Pinning check and a Morale checke.
Heavy Support doesn't necessarily mean anti-tank. Taking down monstrous creatures and massed infantry formations are also a part of the equation. In traditional Tau narrow focus, the Sniper Drones excel at that but fall down when used outside of their particular focus. We got spoiled with Broadsides being able to spam high strength, low AP, accurate shots that could really be useful against everything but a horde. The new codex corrects that somewhat by making the Broadsides more specialized (no more anti-everything guns) and now we have to actually make hard decisions about our heavy support choices. However,w e also now have a change in options as well. Instead of relying on Heavy Support for Anti-Tank we now have more anti-tank options in Elite and Fast Attack. So if we load up in anti-tank there, then what do we need out of our Heavy Support? We can go with more anti-tank of course (Here come the Hammerheads) or we can go with anti aircraft (Broadsides and Skyrays). We can also punish light vehicles, infantry and monstrous creatures (Broadsides and Sniper Drones).
It's really about what way you build the rest of your army that says what units in Heavy Support are the best choices.
Heavy Support isn't all that great. I think Riptides fill the role of anti-armour so well that there's absolutely no need for Hammerheads.
Sorry to go singing the praises of the Riptide again but it's just so versatile. Nova charged Heavy Burst Cannon gives you 12 shots, with two markerlight counters you're hitting on 2+, that's around 10 hits. Now, you have a very good chance that a couple of those hits will rend, a couple of these can reliably deal with AV14 without even firing their twin-linked Fusion Blaster (Which will surely deal with it). For all the points of a Hammerhead you're getting a single S10 shot.
...and Riptide's cannon has Range of only 36" (as do Markerlights), and Nova charge works on 3+. Sounds more like desperation maneuver to me.
I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam. They weren't pushover even with S10 Railguns.
How many do you consider a spam?
Between Riptide / Hammerheads / Broadsides (With either weapon / Fusion on Stealths/Crisis / Falcon Punch / and overcharging Ion weaponary I'd say we have a few ways to deal with them. We just have to be a bit more thoughtful instead of "sit as far back as possible"
I think you're missing an even greater point here. The elite slots have always been just as good at anti-tank as heavy support. Infact, heavy support was always a bit better at anti-infantry because of the Hammerhead. The broadside was the only reliable anti-tank weapon in heavy support and it got a nerf. So the heavy supports are now really good at trashing enemy troops. So, how do I kill tanks? I hear that Fusion blasters got a buff and that new riptide suit is pretty awesome. Missile pods stayed the same, so it seems to me that Elites got even better at precision anti-armor. You can even take some of those elites in an HQ slot if you're so worried about that. That gives you up to 5 FOC slots of the most consistent anti-armor in the codex and you're complaining about heavy support not filling the role?
The hammerhead template was decent at anti-infantry but I wouldn't say it was effective at reliably taking down enemy troops. My point was also with dealing with enemy armor at range. I hear that suits got 18" fusion blasters, but last I checked some IG tanks can afford to stay in the backfield and will have a buffer unit around it. I'm still expecting elites to be forcused on taking down MEQ and TEQ infantry, with Heavy Support gear towards anti-armor and anti-air, leaving the Riptide to fill the space between.
Point being, is that Heavy Support snipers are pointless when you can take outflanking snipers that are also scoring and are in a slot that doesn't get filled easy.
Not sure If I'm that bothered about Broadsides losing Relentless. I very rarely moved with them, and when I did it was when things got close up (so could use my Plasma anyway).
Seriously though, does any other army have sniper rifles in their heavy support slot? I think my biggest complaint for this codex is they fixed so little of the old problems. Kroot suck in combat, Vespid are out shined by everything else, suits are the pinnacle of a shooting army but terrible shots, markerlights are almost required, markerlights don't help the squad, limited troop options, lack of a decent transport, markerlights are heavy weapons on a unit that is supposed to be mobile, and seeker missiles are too silly to really take seriously.
Hear hear. Second biggest complaint from me (after vehicle nerf) is that most of the units which sucked in the old book and we wished would be better or more varied in upcoming Codex, aren't:
-Vespid: essentially same as before. Some well-needed buffs are offset by increased cost and the fact that other choices in the Codex are still so much better. Got ZERO new options!
-Sniper Drones: It didn't matter how good they were, you needed HS slots for Railguns. Now...you need HS slots for Railguns. Next...
-Piranha: Okay but undergunned in 5th, surely it's better now? Well you betcha mate! Fusion Blaster is better, Gun Drones are better, Burst cannon is better...no wait...you can't take Targeting array anymore. Or Target lock. Or go flat out and shoot Seekers. Not to mention how lightly armoured HP2 vehicles blow in general under 6th ed rules. Sigh.
-Sky Ray: most beautiful tank in the game, oh how I have stared you many a night and wished you weren't garbage. Well, at least now it can actually hit flyers. But otherwise, it's still garbage. Did I mention how HS slots are needed for Railguns?
-Stealth suits: letsee, they have same statline...same points costs...same special rules...almost exactly same options than before. Hey, Burst cannon got extra shot! Well, I guess that's better than nothing.
-Kroot: decent but limited previously, but essentially only unit which didn't totally suck in Close combat, surely this was a place for big improvements given very rich existing Kroot background. What did they get? Well, they lose Strength...and lost Attack...hey wait a minute, those aren't improvements! Kroot Shaper is same, Krootox is same, Hounds are almost same. Oh well, they can buy sniper rounds. Thus allowing them to shoot at roughly same level as Fire Warriors, except Fire Warriors can move, have longer range, have Supporting fire and don't die as easily.
-Devilfish. Best way to improve previously underperforming unit is to keep the cost same and take away those few options which sometimes made it decent. Right?
-Drone squadrons. Ok, finally an unit which DID get much better. It wasn't so hard, was it?
I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam. They weren't pushover even with S10 Railguns.
How many do you consider a spam?
Between Riptide / Hammerheads / Broadsides (With either weapon / Fusion on Stealths/Crisis / Falcon Punch / and overcharging Ion weaponary I'd say we have a few ways to deal with them. We just have to be a bit more thoughtful instead of "sit as far back as possible"
Problem is, that's what the enemy will be doing. Your Falcon Punch has 1 inch range, and your suit isn't Bruce Lee.
We had Fusions, EMP grenades, Ion cannons in the previous book too.
Jet Pack Units are relentless according to the BRB.
Broadsides on the other hand ... still cannot move and fire their Heavy Rail Rifles.
They can move & shoot. They just have to fire Snap shots, and you have to expend Markerlight counters so you might hit something with them.
It's same reason why we lost Targeting Array and Multitracker. To make us use more Markerlights because without them we won't be hitting anything. Some real subtle Codex design there.
I think you're missing an even greater point here. The elite slots have always been just as good at anti-tank as heavy support. Infact, heavy support was always a bit better at anti-infantry because of the Hammerhead. The broadside was the only reliable anti-tank weapon in heavy support and it got a nerf. So the heavy supports are now really good at trashing enemy troops. So, how do I kill tanks? I hear that Fusion blasters got a buff and that new riptide suit is pretty awesome. Missile pods stayed the same, so it seems to me that Elites got even better at precision anti-armor. You can even take some of those elites in an HQ slot if you're so worried about that. That gives you up to 5 FOC slots of the most consistent anti-armor in the codex and you're complaining about heavy support not filling the role?
The hammerhead template was decent at anti-infantry but I wouldn't say it was effective at reliably taking down enemy troops. My point was also with dealing with enemy armor at range. I hear that suits got 18" fusion blasters, but last I checked some IG tanks can afford to stay in the backfield and will have a buffer unit around it. I'm still expecting elites to be forcused on taking down MEQ and TEQ infantry, with Heavy Support gear towards anti-armor and anti-air, leaving the Riptide to fill the space between.
Point being, is that Heavy Support snipers are pointless when you can take outflanking snipers that are also scoring and are in a slot that doesn't get filled easy.
Kroot snipers are pointless when they have half the effective range, less accuracy and die to pretty much anything looking at them. If the kroot could shoot something once, the drones can shoot them twice AND leave a markerlight for another unit to use. Also, you're looking at this from a very narrow angle in terms of capturing points. They can't capture points if they don't have any scoring units either. Protect your firewarriors, capture key points and keep them from capturing anything of value.
Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?
Hulksmash wrote: Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?
My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.
Hulksmash wrote: Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?
My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.
Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.
Hulksmash wrote: Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?
My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.
Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.
But they WILL be shooting with the BS of the drone control model. And, unless they are granted Skyfire, they'll be taking snap shots.
Hulksmash wrote: Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?
My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.
Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.
You got the order mixed up. It's like this:
-Drone shoots at flier
-drone use controller's bs of 5
-drone is then reduced to firing snapshots since it doesn't have the skyfire rule and the model is hard to hit
-drone needs 6's to hit.
I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam.
You get a single Venerable Psyrifleman and less than 1.5 normal ones at the price of one Riptide, and the Dread(s) vs. the Riptide is going to be a pretty one-sided fight in favour of the big guy with W5 T6 SV2+ FNP + mobility. The way to deal with Psyriflemen/Hydras/other comparable anti AV11/12 batteries is to not use any vehicles yourself. You simply don't give the enemy any good targets already during the list building phase. You take some HQ suits, 3 Riptides, 3 squads of Missilesides and cram troops infantry in woods/other terrain terrain and behind your Aegis Defence Line with the Quad Gun. No vehicles necessary. Take a Hammerhead or two Devilfishes and a solo flyer in a list like that and your target saturation is so bad that you just gimped your own army. With vehicles/flyers you go big or you go home. All or nothing.
I'm still wondering how Tau will deal with things like Psyrifleman spam.
You get a single Venerable Psyrifleman and less than 1.5 normal ones at the price of one Riptide, and the Dread(s) vs. the Riptide is going to be a pretty one-sided fight in favour of the big guy with W5 T6 SV2+ FNP + mobility. The way to deal with Psyriflemen/Hydras/other comparable anti AV11/12 batteries is to not use any vehicles yourself.
Well, I grant that's a good advice because Tau vehicles blow anyway in the new book.
However, what about Battlesuits? They get insta-gibbed by S8 spam. And it seems Shield Drones only get 4+ save now.
Besides, I doubt GK will have much problems dealing with Riptide. It's an army designed to fight Monstrous creatures.
Fight monstrous creatures IN close combat, where most of them excel.
A jump suit monstrous creature I have a feeling will have an easy time staying out of CC.
Also the tanks look pretty sweet and the points seem right when you consider the role they play in the tau book.
Devilfish mobile bunkers/objective grabbing assistance
Hammerhead:Slayer of whatever
Kroot may be worse overall, however they have an advantage the other drones dont. They can score. Two objectives in cover and the large unit of kroot are not going anywhere(especially if there is an ethereal near by)
Kroot snipers are pointless when they have half the effective range, less accuracy and die to pretty much anything looking at them. If the kroot could shoot something once, the drones can shoot them twice AND leave a markerlight for another unit to use. Also, you're looking at this from a very narrow angle in terms of capturing points. They can't capture points if they don't have any scoring units either. Protect your firewarriors, capture key points and keep them from capturing anything of value.
The effective range is mitigated by the outflanking, and the bonus to select outflanking board edge from pathfinders (including back table edge).
Less accurate, but can also take 5 small-large squads of expendible scoring units that outflank.
And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.
Hulksmash wrote: Here is going to be a fun question. The drone controller allows you to use the BS of the model with the drone controller. If that model has skyfire would they then be using his BS against the flyer as well?
My gut feeling is that they'll shoot with the BS of the controller, but as they lack the skyfire rule THEMSELVES, they'll be reduced to snap shooting...so will need 6s.
Don't you multi/divide then add/subtract then apply set modifiers? I will just chose to set BS to 1 for shooting at a hard to hit model, then apply the drone controller rule. Codex overrules BRB.
You got the order mixed up. It's like this:
-Drone shoots at flier
-drone use controller's bs of 5
-drone is then reduced to firing snapshots since it doesn't have the skyfire rule and the model is hard to hit
-drone needs 6's to hit.
I would say instead order of operations you're better off thinking of this as a global condition.
IF target = Flyer then Ballistic Skill = 1 unless Special Rules include " Skyfire"
I've noticed over the many years that players tend to apply results in the order in which they are most advantageous to them at the time. Anyway, enough of that as rule arguments can go into the den of ill repute.
And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.
Kroot always had outflank, and they used to be better in combat, and in 5th could charge out from outflank. Yet it was not a tactic which was likely to have much chance of succeeding - I think it worked like once or twice.
Kroot are simply not survivable or killy enough to go claiming objectives by force.
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Leth wrote: Fight monstrous creatures IN close combat, where most of them excel.
A jump suit monstrous creature I have a feeling will have an easy time staying out of CC.
Grey Knights have also guns. Plenty of them. Plus they have jump troops of their own.
Also the tanks look pretty sweet and the points seem right when you consider the role they play in the tau book.
Devilfish mobile bunkers/objective grabbing assistance
Hammerhead:Slayer of whatever
They're terrible, compared to what they were. Tau tanks need to move to survive and maximize use of their firepower. They can't do that anymore without ginormous amount of Markerlight support. If the Hammerhead didn't have only good anti-tank gun of the army, I guarantee it wouldn't see any play in current Codex.
Kroot snipers are pointless when they have half the effective range, less accuracy and die to pretty much anything looking at them. If the kroot could shoot something once, the drones can shoot them twice AND leave a markerlight for another unit to use. Also, you're looking at this from a very narrow angle in terms of capturing points. They can't capture points if they don't have any scoring units either. Protect your firewarriors, capture key points and keep them from capturing anything of value.
The effective range is mitigated by the outflanking, and the bonus to select outflanking board edge from pathfinders (including back table edge).
Less accurate, but can also take 5 small-large squads of expendible scoring units that outflank.
And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.
I think at this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I do not see the value in wasting my points in a unit that only scores and barely shoots in an army that's either long range shooting or high mobility shooting. Kroot do neither and will not be finding a spot in my lists anytime soon (even though I love how mine turned out when I finished them) and instead I'll place my value into units that mesh into my strategies better. If you can make kroot work, more power to you but I don't put much weight into what they bring to the table.
I can agree to that, but it is really trying to make the best of what's available. Kroot with snipers can get some damage in, but will still rely on other squads to clear a path for them for the most part. Really we have no good way of claiming objectives since our transport is too expensive to be really be considered and FW can't slog down field to get objectives. Kroot will die in droves any day of the week, but we don't have much options in the way of scoring units. The best denial units we have are suits, and that requires them being too close for comfort and of course drones can't contest.
I plan on bringing a couple units of Kroot and see what works. Maybe I can try and flood the sides with Kroot and hope that one unit survives to claim one or deny one objective.
Someone had posted an interesting idea regarding Kroot, could you set-up an Aegis Defense Line in front of some woods, and put the Kroot in the woods? I'm not sure if they then get stealth for being in woods, but can use the cover save of the ADL? I've found that Eldar pathfinders make quite a good objective-holding allied unit when in cover, and Kroot could be an even cheaper version of that with more bodies to keep that objective.
I can also see the value in 20 Kroot and 10 hounds outflanking to contest objectives. It's 30 wounds for 170 points. If they could get some sort of morale boost from an ethereal or something to prevent them from running it should be tough to take them out.
Oaka wrote: Someone had posted an interesting idea regarding Kroot, could you set-up an Aegis Defense Line in front of some woods, and put the Kroot in the woods? I'm not sure if they then get stealth for being in woods, but can use the cover save of the ADL? I've found that Eldar pathfinders make quite a good objective-holding allied unit when in cover, and Kroot could be an even cheaper version of that with more bodies to keep that objective.
Yeah, but it gets tougher when they don't have the proper cover. Eldar Pathfinders have built in cover, so they're just really difficult to root out of a 4+ cover save terrain because they have a 2+. The same is true for the Tau Stealthsuits, but those can't capture points. I guess I'm trying to compensate for the Tau inadquacies at objective based games by preventing my opponents from capturing any points.
So one thing that I kind of thought about lately. Anyone else bothered by just the match up for the White Dwarf Battle Report. It seems like Tau will be good at fighting off nids, which is one of the... less advantagous armies currently. Tau have always seemed to be decent at handling nids and all of the buffs make them better, while the nerfs bother them none. Nids don't care about S8 railguns, vehicles don't need to move against an army lacking shooting anti-tank weapons, and fliers can have a field day. I really can't stand the terrible match up, or about the cheating SoB army that gets free fortifications, or the DA battle report where they started off saying they weren't using point values but what was available.
I personally wanted to see IG, Necrons, or any of the other 6th ed books against Tau.
Anyone else bothered by just the match up for the White Dwarf Battle Report.
I'm pretty sure the decision to include Tyranids in the battle report is based on some background narrative. Necrons, Dark Eldar and Eldar are all exotic pirates of sorts and a rare encounter in the 40K galaxy in comparison to the Imperials/renegades and Orks/Nids.
Sniper Drones have changed, they now have Longshot Pulse Rifles: 48" SX AP5 Sniper, Rapid Fire.
It's still two shots at 24" with a chance of rending, they look decent for the points.
That's awesome. It like a better Deathmark rifle.
However, will anyone take them? Heavy Support still seems extremely crowded. You're going to need Broadsides, you're going to need Railheads (you may even need Sky Ray if you're really paranoid about air threat). What slot do they fill in?
Fact is that other units in other FOC slots can do same job Sniper Drones do. Broadside & Hammerhead, by contrast, seem as irreplaceable as ever, despite their nerfing.
I intend to run 27 if I can. : D
Hans_Einberg wrote:I am still having difficulty figuring out which flyer to go with....they offer interchangeability for the most part either by swiveling in to place or easy mod changes to be made... with the one exception that there are only 4 ion rifles in the kit, so its either for your quad gun or your interceptor drones....real tough call on that...
what say all of you? has anyone made their decision yet?
i suppose one could proxy a bomber as a fighter and vice versa but...it kinda takes the fun out of it
Magnets! Alternatively, you could use Instant Mold and GS / Milliput to copy that one small bit (I've been told by GW staff small reproduction of small bits here and there for personal use is ok)
Lobukia wrote: I think my kroot are going to be counts as shoota boys or commandos and my Master Shaper a Warboss.
I'd go kommandos, that would be a great-looking allied detachment. Possibly include Snikrot and use a Knarloc Rider as a Warboss on bike? Plus, Kroot can look quite good with burnas:
Did Devilfish lose the option to take SMS? (I noticed they removed the hammerhead sprue from the bits section of the GW website, so was wondering if this was tied to that.)
I don't really see the point in Twin linked smart missiles now when drones have slightly shorter range (that can be increased) and have the same number of S5 ap5 shots, but with pinning.
I find it funny that on the old vehicles I would have paid 15 points for the disruption pod, while I don't think I'd pay 5 points for the current one.
I find it funny that on the old vehicles I would have paid 15 points for the disruption pod, while I don't think I'd pay 5 points for the current one.
Don't think 15 pts is worth the +1 cover save? Since you're a skimmer, you'll have a 4+ cover save all the time. I think it might be worth it.
And it stacks with Stealth/Shrouded (like from Night fighting). I think it's actually pretty good, only for Piranha it's probably too expensive. Old one was bit silly as it was so cheap it was autoinclude.
This is a response I posted on Kompletely Kroot, to the new Kroot rules.
"It's just a kick in the teeth for those of us that have collected all the Forgeworld models, and converted all the units in the old Kroot Mercenary list. It was presented as an infiltrating, assault army. Now that they have been repurposed as cheap snipers, with statlines similar to a Guardsmen, I can't use a majority of my models as actual Kroot anymore.
Their new rules simply give them the option of changing ammunition, so this requires no converting whatsoever. Even the Hunter Kindred were actually given 36" sniper rifles. Now you can build a box of Kroot and they can either be 6 point cannon fodder or 7 point snipers, using the same model. It is very disappointing to a modeler.
I am really hoping the new Ork codex will have Squiggoths in it, that would give me a counts-as army list that I can actually use. I have been having success with a non-vehicle Dark Eldar counts-as, and I really think a Kroot Carnivore should be just as good in combat as a Wych, so I will continue to use this list in the future.
The new Tau codex completely destroys the established fiction that the Tau needed alien auxiliaries for close quarter combat. Now, Kroot stay still and shoot just like the rest of the Tau army."
I was hoping for some Kroot-love in this new codex, but it didn't happen. I have converted and amassed quite a nice Kroot army over the last ten years, so I would like to hope that other players will allow me to use my Kroot as a counts-as army list that is actually good in close combat. This new Tau codex will slowly convince players that Kroot are crap in assault, but it never used to be that way.
Therion wrote: You take some HQ suits, 3 Riptides, 3 squads of Missilesides and cram troops infantry in woods/other terrain terrain and behind your Aegis Defence Line with the Quad Gun. No vehicles necessary. Take a Hammerhead or two Devilfishes and a solo flyer in a list like that and your target saturation is so bad that you just gimped your own army. With vehicles/flyers you go big or you go home. All or nothing.
I'm not so sure. Hammerheads and Riptides in practice saturate the same weapon types (high strength low AP), and Broadsides do as well, minor variations not withstanding (Hammerheads don't care about plasma guns, while the Riptide does (depending on upgrades) and Broadsides sure as hell do). The main exception is against haywire weapons, but in practice those have more or less gone away already in my area and I expect Tau will be the final nail in the coffin.
Oaka wrote: This is a response I posted on Kompletely Kroot, to the new Kroot rules.
"It's just a kick in the teeth for those of us that have collected all the Forgeworld models, and converted all the units in the old Kroot Mercenary list. It was presented as an infiltrating, assault army. Now that they have been repurposed as cheap snipers, with statlines similar to a Guardsmen, I can't use a majority of my models as actual Kroot anymore.
Their new rules simply give them the option of changing ammunition, so this requires no converting whatsoever. Even the Hunter Kindred were actually given 36" sniper rifles. Now you can build a box of Kroot and they can either be 6 point cannon fodder or 7 point snipers, using the same model. It is very disappointing to a modeler.
I am really hoping the new Ork codex will have Squiggoths in it, that would give me a counts-as army list that I can actually use. I have been having success with a non-vehicle Dark Eldar counts-as, and I really think a Kroot Carnivore should be just as good in combat as a Wych, so I will continue to use this list in the future.
The new Tau codex completely destroys the established fiction that the Tau needed alien auxiliaries for close quarter combat. Now, Kroot stay still and shoot just like the rest of the Tau army."
I was hoping for some Kroot-love in this new codex, but it didn't happen. I have converted and amassed quite a nice Kroot army over the last ten years, so I would like to hope that other players will allow me to use my Kroot as a counts-as army list that is actually good in close combat. This new Tau codex will slowly convince players that Kroot are crap in assault, but it never used to be that way.
Interesting, and a bit of a bummer, though I was never heavily invested in Kroot. Cheap snipers, while not bad, isn't what Kroot are there for... Well, at any rate, it would be easy to use them as an allied Ork or DE detachment.
[quote=Backfire 512548 5470317 null
Grey Knights have also guns. Plenty of them. Plus they have jump troops of their own.
They're terrible, compared to what they were. Tau tanks need to move to survive and maximize use of their firepower. They can't do that anymore without ginormous amount of Markerlight support. If the Hammerhead didn't have only good anti-tank gun of the army, I guarantee it wouldn't see any play in current Codex.
Most grey knight guns that the suit would really be worried about are range 24. for those to fire requires that the unit remain stationary to get the most number of shots. His guns are much longer than that. Once again, not really worried.
I think you mistake anti tank for anti armor 13/14. Even then you have range 18 fusion blasters. For anything not AV 13 you have more strength 7 volume of fire at range than anything I have seen from another army(even av 13 could be glanced to death).
Tau tanks are some of the most durable tanks I have seen.
Armor 12/13 with a guaranteed 4+ save, just from moving? Yes please.
Got my Codex in hand if anyone has questions. Hooray for questionable morality on the part of my game store slipping it to me early.
Quick note for those discussing it in previous posts: The Supporting Fire rule does state that overwatch can still only be fired once per phase. So no multiple overwatches via supporting fire.
Also drones do count as members of squads if taken as upgrades and cannot leave coherency.
And the concept of protecting firewarriors is an absurd concept. Terrain is rather equal on both sides, so you have just as much ability to hide firewarriors as they do with their troops, so we are left with base comparisons. Firewarriors have a decent volume of shooting, but are not very survivable due to small number, T3, and L8 without HQ support. Just about every other troop is more survivable and the things that killed FW before will kill them just as much now. So I don't see why having kroot in reserves that can come in and deny an objective or even claim one would be a bad thing. Tau were losing in the objective game in 6th, and just because we can shoot some units off objectives doesn't mean our units will be fine on their objectives.
Kroot always had outflank, and they used to be better in combat, and in 5th could charge out from outflank. Yet it was not a tactic which was likely to have much chance of succeeding - I think it worked like once or twice.
Kroot are simply not survivable or killy enough to go claiming objectives by force.
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Leth wrote: Fight monstrous creatures IN close combat, where most of them excel.
A jump suit monstrous creature I have a feeling will have an easy time staying out of CC.
Grey Knights have also guns. Plenty of them. Plus they have jump troops of their own.
Also the tanks look pretty sweet and the points seem right when you consider the role they play in the tau book.
Devilfish mobile bunkers/objective grabbing assistance
Hammerhead:Slayer of whatever
They're terrible, compared to what they were. Tau tanks need to move to survive and maximize use of their firepower. They can't do that anymore without ginormous amount of Markerlight support. If the Hammerhead didn't have only good anti-tank gun of the army, I guarantee it wouldn't see any play in current Codex.
It seems like you're trying to argue that the new Tau codex is not competitive with the current GK codex. You are correct, it's not. It was designed to be competitive with CSM, DA, and Daemons (the three books released so far for 6th). GW is balancing the scales between the armies and is trying to lay the "power dex" (which ruled in 5th) to rest. Granted, it might suck for a while as GK, Necrons, and (to a lesser extent) IG will still be running amok, but eventually, if GW does it right and doesn't fall in to old habits, all armies will be properly balanced. Here's hoping.
The Hammerhead in the new Tau Codex is one of the best tanks in the game. I expect to see 2 in most armies, and the only reason that number isn't 3 is because Broadsides and Skyrays are also very effective.
Have I been misunderstanding the markerlight rules all this time? From what I have been reading, if the officer in a fire warrior squad "lights up" an enemy, the rest of the squad can't expend the marker for +1 BS? Either another squad/unit would use the mark or it could be used to fire a seeker missile?
Quick note for those discussing it in previous posts: The Supporting Fire rule does state that overwatch can still only be fired once per phase. So no multiple overwatches via supporting fire.
Are you sure that its not once per unit? For example, if unit A fires overwatch for unit B and it gets charged by another unit it would be able to fire, but Unit C could overwatch for Unit A.
Quick note for those discussing it in previous posts: The Supporting Fire rule does state that overwatch can still only be fired once per phase. So no multiple overwatches via supporting fire.
Are you sure that its not once per unit? For example, if unit A fires overwatch for unit B and it gets charged by another unit it would be able to fire, but Unit C could overwatch for Unit A.
The book seems very clear. It says as an addendum after the supporting fire rule to remember that a unit can only fire overwatch once per phase. I'm not a hot dog in YMDC and I know people can argue almost anything but that seems pretty unequivocal.
I was more clearing it up for the people thinking that a single unit could fire more than one overwatch via this rule, in your example Unit A fires overwatch for Unit B being charged then unit A gets charged and could still fire overwatch for itself, the rule disallows this.
After going back and reading what you said this isn't what you meant at all... sorry!
Quick note for those discussing it in previous posts: The Supporting Fire rule does state that overwatch can still only be fired once per phase. So no multiple overwatches via supporting fire.
Are you sure that its not once per unit? For example, if unit A fires overwatch for unit B and it gets charged by another unit it would be able to fire, but Unit C could overwatch for Unit A.
The book seems very clear. It says as an addendum after the supporting fire rule to remember that a unit can only fire overwatch once per phase. I'm not a hot dog in YMDC and I know people can argue almost anything but that seems pretty unequivocal.
I was more clearing it up for the people thinking that a single unit could fire more than one overwatch via this rule. After going back and reading what you said this isn't what you meant at all... sorry!
I think we are on the same page. My example was referring to Unit A only being able to overwatch once. The way I read the wording was that only one unit could do supporting fire per phase.
Quick note for those discussing it in previous posts: The Supporting Fire rule does state that overwatch can still only be fired once per phase. So no multiple overwatches via supporting fire.
Are you sure that its not once per unit? For example, if unit A fires overwatch for unit B and it gets charged by another unit it would be able to fire, but Unit C could overwatch for Unit A.
The book seems very clear. It says as an addendum after the supporting fire rule to remember that a unit can only fire overwatch once per phase. I'm not a hot dog in YMDC and I know people can argue almost anything but that seems pretty unequivocal.
I was more clearing it up for the people thinking that a single unit could fire more than one overwatch via this rule, in your example Unit A fires overwatch for Unit B being charged then unit A gets charged and could still fire overwatch for itself, the rule disallows this.
After going back and reading what you said this isn't what you meant at all... sorry!
No worries, i think the rule is fine. Having multiple over watches would be op, imo.
I have a quick question about the fluff...is the terrible "Space Marines now protect Tau becuase of a 10,000 year old document that the Emperor signed" bit in there? I was really afraid that it would be, even though the idea has received a LOT of flack from the community...
It seems like you're trying to argue that the new Tau codex is not competitive with the current GK codex. You are correct, it's not. It was designed to be competitive with CSM, DA, and Daemons (the three books released so far for 6th). GW is balancing the scales between the armies and is trying to lay the "power dex" (which ruled in 5th) to rest. Granted, it might suck for a while as GK, Necrons, and (to a lesser extent) IG will still be running amok, but eventually, if GW does it right and doesn't fall in to old habits, all armies will be properly balanced. Here's hoping.
I don't know whether the army is competive with GK (old Codex was, btw), I'm just expressing concern about the lack of anti-tank fire this book seems to have. Maybe other people are right, maybe it's not actually a problem, but I suspect it is.
And Hammerhead seems like it's terrible with the new book. It's previously good mobility is gimped, and without Target lock it's secondary firepower is often wasted because it has to use Railgun against hard targets which can't be hurt - or often even reached - with its secondary weapons.
I can't stress enough how forced the book seems. All the shooting aids other than Markerlights are taken away, so people are forced to take and use them. How do Mech Tau players are going to play with the new book now when tanks totally suck without Markerlight support, which is nearly all infantry? How exactly you're meant to execute Mont'ka strategy with this book when moving your tanks forward makes them unable to shoot properly? Did Vetock even read the old Codex before he began to write the new one? Because it honestly doesn't look like he did. The book looks like some guy familiar with Imperial codices took it, assumed units have Imperial equivalents "OK...Hammerhead is like Tau Predator...and Devilfish is like Tau Rhino...and Kroot are like Tau Ratlings...and Seeker missile is like Tau Hunter-killer missile..." and so on.
I know we don't know everything, but here's something to consider: Pathfinders are actually fast attack now, not just in the slot. Before, they were only good for markerlights, which made them particularly stationary, a definite backfield unit. Now, they're still good for that (arguably better), but one could reasonably kit them out to be an offensive unit. The stock Pulse Carbine is a lot more effective, as are EMP grenades. Add to this the option of the Ion Sniper Rifle (whatever it was called) which someone reported here as S7 AP4 rapid fire 36"(I think), with a S8 blast Heavy option. So imagine you go first. Deploy 12" forward on a flank, Scout 12" forward. On Turn 1, disembark and move 6", putting S7 shots at whatever side armor is the best target. The Devilfish moves to cut off the worst incoming lines of fire to the Pathfinders. You've now set up a deep striking or outflanking position deep into the opponent's zone thanks to the positional relay. You've also created a sizable no-go bubble for any enemy tank due to the EMP grenades you're packing. Enemy troops will also take a lot of damage from the Pathfinder's now very substantial guns. The downside? You're not using Mandatory Markerlights, and Pathfinders now only have a 5+ armor save, so they won't survive after turn 1. Just when you think a unit gets interesting...
CaptainLoken wrote: I have a quick question about the fluff...is the terrible "Space Marines now protect Tau becuase of a 10,000 year old document that the Emperor signed" bit in there? I was really afraid that it would be, even though the idea has received a LOT of flack from the community...
Not going to go into the fluff, for one I haven't read it all yet. For two half the fun of getting a new codex is reading the fluff and I don't want to ruin it for anyone.
CaptainLoken wrote: I have a quick question about the fluff...is the terrible "Space Marines now protect Tau becuase of a 10,000 year old document that the Emperor signed" bit in there? I was really afraid that it would be, even though the idea has received a LOT of flack from the community...
NO.
The Emperor protected and Mr Vetock kept the fluff untainted.
Biophysical wrote: I know we don't know everything, but here's something to consider: Pathfinders are actually fast attack now, not just in the slot. Before, they were only good for markerlights, which made them particularly stationary, a definite backfield unit. Now, they're still good for that (arguably better), but one could reasonably kit them out to be an offensive unit. The stock Pulse Carbine is a lot more effective, as are EMP grenades.
I actually used Pathfinders few times in this capability with the old book. I took fully kitted out Warfish w/ 8 Pathfinders, then outflanked them to objective, Pathfinders & the Fish shot up the objective holding troop, Pathfinders finishing with a charge (!). It was super fun, though practical only against very weak objective holders (like Gretchin...).
CaptainLoken wrote: I have a quick question about the fluff...is the terrible "Space Marines now protect Tau becuase of a 10,000 year old document that the Emperor signed" bit in there? I was really afraid that it would be, even though the idea has received a LOT of flack from the community...
Wait what? I never heard of that horrible bit of fan fic.
There isn't an HQ with Eternal Warrior in the entire Codex that I could see.
Cadre Fireblades do not allow you to purchase multiple models to attach to squads. One per HQ slot is all you get. I know there was some discussion on this previously, just wanted to clear it up.
Kingsley wrote: The Hammerhead in the new Tau Codex is one of the best tanks in the game. I expect to see 2 in most armies, and the only reason that number isn't 3 is because Broadsides and Skyrays are also very effective.
I don't think the Hammerhead is even close to being one of the best tanks in the game.
1) It is actually undergunned. It has now got only two weapon systems - the turret and the "sponsons".
2) Most other tanks have considerably more firepower. Yes the Hammerhead has the Rail Cannon, but it needs support from other units or Longstrike.
Base HH vs Base LR Vanquisher - The Russ is better as it can penetrate armour better and has more guns. It has more armour too, but it also more expensive.
On the subject of HH... what second weapon do we go with? I'm thinking just drones as they might be better than the Burst Cannons.
So are fireblades still worth it? How cheap are they cause I think I'd just splurge to get the Crisis suit or maybe just give it a marker drone squad.
Also I don't see how the Hammerhead is the best tank in the game. It has a single BS4 railcannon shot and... well... that's about it. It will get a 4+ cover if it's kitted with the disruption pod and forced to move every turn. Meanwhile other armies can get lascannon predators, Landraiders, the various Leman Russ varients, Manticores, Lance skimmers that are cheaper from what I hear, anyone got anything else they would count as a better tank?
On the issue with pathfinders, there save did go down to the point where standard weapons ignore it and special weapons that are cheap like the flamer will now wreck pathfinders. Would you really consider that a fast attack unit for one special weapon? In it's normal mode it's a lame plasma gun with longer range (I can't honestly remember the weapon profile) and if you didn't move it's a blast weapon. Pathfinders suffer from the same problem they always have. They are an almost vital unit, that is fragile, and they paint themselves as a huge target. I think they are even more of a target now, since I wager that many will be taking multiple weapon suits, vice twin-linked weapons to take advantage of the built in multi-tracker. This will make pathfinders a gamble since every AP5 weapon will be aimed at their heads to remove something that will hurt the army as a whole.
Savageconvoy wrote: So are fireblades still worth it? How cheap are they cause I think I'd just splurge to get the Crisis suit or maybe just give it a marker drone squad.
They are pretty cheap for what they do, the problem is finding HQ slots.
Also, something I was just looking at. Pathfinders come with the option to purchase the new special drones. All drones are T4, including old drones and the new ones.So you could theoretically buy enough drones to make majority toughness be 4 for the unit. It seems expensive but the new drones are pretty nice so it isn't useless by any means and this seems like a way to make them more survivable, especially since with defensive grenades they will be getting stealth from anything 8" away and therefore, better cover saves.
Savageconvoy wrote: So are fireblades still worth it? How cheap are they cause I think I'd just splurge to get the Crisis suit or maybe just give it a marker drone squad..
Fireblades are 60 pts. The problem is, Ethereals are only 50, and they do more than Fireblades. It sucks because I was so excited about the Fireblade when I first heard about it, but now, they really are overshadowed with the incredible buffs that Ethereals got...
Ethereals now are to Tau almost like Vendettas (or Marbo) are to IG: they're just too good to not take....
CaptainLoken wrote: I have a quick question about the fluff...is the terrible "Space Marines now protect Tau becuase of a 10,000 year old document that the Emperor signed" bit in there? I was really afraid that it would be, even though the idea has received a LOT of flack from the community...
Wait what? I never heard of that horrible bit of fan fic.
Yeah, it was a VERY specific rumor that came out from a...not so accurate rumor poster...
Basically, the rumor was that a 10,000 year old document was discovered. In the document, the Emperor stated that an alien species who was "almost immune to the touch of the warp" would be Humanity's salvation against Chaos. So, the Space Marines decide that the Tau fit the bill, and started "protecting" them...
I HATED it, and so did MANY others. In fact, at one panel conversation with GW game designers, a young fan actually asked how they could put that bit of offal into the fluff. He concluded his question with the Allies Chart, and asked if that was why Tau and Space Marines were allowed to be Battle Brothers. He was instantly showered with applause from the other fans in the room. The GW game designers were a little surprised by the fan reaction, and simply said that, "there were several times in the existing fluff where Space Marines and Tau had allied against a common enemy..." No one seemed to like this response.
So, I was just making sure it was not in the Tau Codex. Now, if we can dodge the same bullet in the Space Marine Codex, then I can continue to play the game...
Savageconvoy wrote: So are fireblades still worth it? How cheap are they cause I think I'd just splurge to get the Crisis suit or maybe just give it a marker drone squad..
Fireblades are 60 pts. The problem is, Ethereals are only 50, and they do more than Fireblades. It sucks because I was so excited about the Fireblade when I first heard about it, but now, they really are overshadowed with the incredible buffs that Ethereals got...
This is true, though I was trying to be careful on points costs since I wasn't sure if that was ok to post.
Also a small point, the Fireblade is 3W and gives you another markerlight (he has split fire) at BS 5, plus volley fire. While the Etheral is only 2W and needs to be close to the fighting to gives buffs at 12"
Not sure how much wounds matters with T3 on each though.
I don't see ethereals as being that good. I'm just not really impressed with their invocations, but I'm not really giving it much thought so no big surprise. I'm fully prepared to be proven wrong on this, and I certainly don't see a draw back in taking them. I'm going to give it some more thought, maybe I'll come around.
I wouldn't say the Fireblade is cheap, especially compared to the CSMHQs, which have great gear and load out options and can make various units troops. Sorry, but I could spend 60points better than just getting an extra shot from immobile firewarriors... like bringing more firewarriors.
One thing I would have loved to see was a bonus to DTW. It would make perfect sense as the Tau don't have the ability to have psykers and per the fluff have a minimal presence in the warp.
I forgot. I thought they made a rule that Tau got 5+ deny the witch on suits and rerolls for everyone. It may be early on in the codex, but I don't expect it to be there.
And another thing they didn't fix. No psyker defense and no psyker support.
Basically, the rumor was that a 10,000 year old document was discovered. In the document, the Emperor stated that an alien species who was "almost immune to the touch of the warp" would be Humanity's salvation against Chaos. So, the Space Marines decide that the Tau fit the bill, and started "protecting" them...
I HATED it, and so did MANY others. In fact, at one panel conversation with GW game designers, a young fan actually asked how they could put that bit of offal into the fluff. He concluded his question with the Allies Chart, and asked if that was why Tau and Space Marines were allowed to be Battle Brothers. He was instantly showered with applause from the other fans in the room. The GW game designers were a little surprised by the fan reaction, and simply said that, "there were several times in the existing fluff where Space Marines and Tau had allied against a common enemy..." No one seemed to like this response.
Ally matrix is supposed to be read (fluff-wise) so that it presents the BEST possible case. Tau are open-minded, and under best circumstances will ally with nearly anyone. It is not meant to be interpreted that EVERY contact is friendly. Admittably, I do find the Ally matrix somewhat too "lenient". There are too many Battle brothers.
Funnily enough, fan-written Battlefleet Gothic ally rules say that "Space Marines will NEVER ally with Tau".
Ravenous D wrote: Allied farseer with divination + 5 dire avengers. Rerolls and army wide psychic defense, well for at least a few months anyway.
I prefer pathfinders. I even considered using my rail rifle tau pathfinders and etheral as "counts as" eldar at the start of this edition as a tribute to the cash grab allies rules.
Savageconvoy wrote: I don't see ethereals as being that good. I'm just not really impressed with their invocations, but I'm not really giving it much thought so no big surprise. I'm fully prepared to be proven wrong on this, and I certainly don't see a draw back in taking them. I'm going to give it some more thought, maybe I'll come around.
I wouldn't say the Fireblade is cheap, especially compared to the CSMHQs, which have great gear and load out options and can make various units troops. Sorry, but I could spend 60points better than just getting an extra shot from immobile firewarriors... like bringing more firewarriors.
Well, to me it would be the choice between a Fireblade which gives a single squad an extra shot at full or rapid, or an Ethereal with Storm of Fire who sort of meets everyone within 12" halfway with an extra shot at rapid only. Now, let's think in double-HQ choices: two Fireblades = two squads with volley fire; two Ethereals (positioned correctly) = almost your entire DZ blanketed with Storm of Fire, so everyone with pulse weapons (not just FWs) are getting that extra shot at half range (especially Sniper Drone teams, who will now have 3 shots each at 24"), and, once again, for cheaper. Ethereals really are the better value.
The only time I can see Fireblades as being useful is in small games (500-750) where every victory point counts, since the drawback now to Ethereals is they give up two Victory points.
Personally, after reading up on them, I'd take Space Pope. He can give two squads buffs.
This is noteworthy in that up until like a week ago, you would never have heard those words uttered. Space Pope, the worst unit in any army, ever. And that includes games which are not Warhammer 40k.
Seriously, I'm utterly puzzled who came up with the idea of Aun'va, and why. Putting him to a Tau army is like having Franklin Roosevelt lead up a charge on Omaha Beach.
Honestly I think I'll try out two Crisis suit commanders with marker drone squads and a couple shield drones. Fill the third FA slot with a Bomber or fighter. It gives me more BS5 markers that are more mobile and hit better than pathfinders while also being tougher. Plus it makes up for the lack of pulse weapon shots by providing markers to the Elites and Heavy with their low ap weaponry.
Personally, after reading up on them, I'd take Space Pope. He can give two squads buffs.
This is noteworthy in that up until like a week ago, you would never have heard those words uttered. Space Pope, the worst unit in any army, ever. And that includes games which are not Warhammer 40k.
Seriously, I'm utterly puzzled who came up with the idea of Aun'va, and why. Putting him to a Tau army is like having Teddy Roosevelt lead up a charge on Omaha Beach.
Way off topic, but do you mean Franklin D. Roosevelt? Cause Teddy leading a charge isn't a strange idea at all.
Problem is as with any 6th edition book you cant really compare 1 to 1. You have to look at everything in the context of the book. So yes taking into account things like markerlights into a units viability is pretty much mandatory in determining somethings use.
Personally, after reading up on them, I'd take Space Pope. He can give two squads buffs.
This is noteworthy in that up until like a week ago, you would never have heard those words uttered. Space Pope, the worst unit in any army, ever. And that includes games which are not Warhammer 40k.
Seriously, I'm utterly puzzled who came up with the idea of Aun'va, and why. Putting him to a Tau army is like having Teddy Roosevelt lead up a charge on Omaha Beach.
Way off topic, but do you mean Franklin D. Roosevelt? Cause Teddy leading a charge isn't a strange idea at all.
Oh right. Hey, it's not my country's presidents! There is no way I'd confuse C.G.E Mannerheim with Tarja Halonen.
Kilkrazy wrote: The fact that people are arguing about what to use in their limited FOC slots is an indicator that the codex is overall more varied, interesting and capable than before.
tiberius183 wrote: Totally agree. Nice work, GW. You gave us the primary thing that us Tau players have been wanting for years: options.
Yep. I mean, just look what awesome new option Vespid got: they now have the option of NOT take the Strain Leader, and stay at Ld6. That's exactly what I wanted all those years.
Kilkrazy wrote: The fact that people are arguing about what to use in their limited FOC slots is an indicator that the codex is overall more varied, interesting and capable than before.
CaptainLoken wrote: I have a quick question about the fluff...is the terrible "Space Marines now protect Tau becuase of a 10,000 year old document that the Emperor signed" bit in there? I was really afraid that it would be, even though the idea has received a LOT of flack from the community...
Wait what? I never heard of that horrible bit of fan fic.
Because that's all it was.
This was being bandied about before the edition changeover and was being touted as being in the main rulebook.
It was, of course, trolling nonsense.
Puscifer wrote: In regards to the Fireblade and Ethereal, they are but secondary hq choices when compared to the Commanders.
The Fireblade buffs are for one squad only... one paper thin squad.
The Ethereal again only buffs one squad, but gives more buffs.
Personally, after reading up on them, I'd take Space Pope. He can give two squads buffs.
I honestly I'm liking the Suit Commander less and less due to his high points cost. I feel like i could bring a Ethereal instead, give some reasonably good buffs to units around me and still have over 100pts for more firepower else where. Suit commanders just so many bull-eyes on them every game, but an Ethereal will often get over shadowed by other units in your army, but still pay out his points worth of buff every game. I'm looking forward to the buff and leadership reliability of ethereal, and Aun'va.
CleverAntics wrote: Is there any restriction to taking 3 of the same weapon? Say, a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle, and the 3rd point being another Plasma Rifle?
Can say for 100% since i don't have my codex, but a lot of people have said that the restriction has gone away, so now you can have one TL weapon and a non-TL of the same weapon.
Sorry if it has been mentioned, but do we have details on Farsight having the potential for a huge unit of bodyguards still? I know that he doesn't make Crisis suits troops, but his huge bodyguard death star is one of my favorite units to flaunt around the battlefield and I'm hoping it's still in there.
lucas wrote: Sorry if it has been mentioned, but do we have details on Farsight having the potential for a huge unit of bodyguards still? I know that he doesn't make Crisis suits troops, but his huge bodyguard death star is one of my favorite units to flaunt around the battlefield and I'm hoping it's still in there.
Thanks!
Yup, the scans say he can still take 1-7 bodyguards.
Yep. 2x Plasma Rifles which turn into TL Plasma Rifles, then a singular one; should count as 2 weapons as far as firing them goes. I just want to out-Plasma a local opponent for the Hell of it, and with ML support, I think 16 shots at half range or 8 at long denying cover will be nice...dunno, I'll have to try it out.
I play against Marines all the time, although they're kinda dwindling nowadays.
lucas wrote:Sorry if it has been mentioned, but do we have details on Farsight having the potential for a huge unit of bodyguards still? I know that he doesn't make Crisis suits troops, but his huge bodyguard death star is one of my favorite units to flaunt around the battlefield and I'm hoping it's still in there.
Thanks!
Yes, he can have up to 7 crisis suits in his body guard.
CleverAntics wrote:Is there any restriction to taking 3 of the same weapon? Say, a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle, and the 3rd point being another Plasma Rifle?
Currently the way I am reading it, no there is nothing prohibiting you from doing this.
Im suprised this hasnt been mentioned yet: Commanders (regular farsight and shadowsun), dont lose independent character status if you get them Escorts. Meaning i can have a commander, buy 2 escorts and they run to different places. For me this is huge because we've always had problems with not enough XV8 squads. Now we can have 3 XV8s in elite, 2 commanders buffing or attaching to other squads or solo, and 2 Escort squads all running seperately from each other. Like you can use one Escort squad as Sunforges with the Neurochip to alpha strike any large vehicle while keeping Fireknives and Deathrains as they were.
Or heck have farsight leave his bomb and go assault a vehicle on his own
tiberius183 wrote: Totally agree. Nice work, GW. You gave us the primary thing that us Tau players have been wanting for years: options.
Yep. I mean, just look what awesome new option Vespid got: they now have the option of NOT take the Strain Leader, and stay at Ld6. That's exactly what I wanted all those years.
Ok, this is funny.
As i had posted before (wow...two days is a long time in this thread) overall the book looks solid.
Vespid however, are one of the "what were they thinking" units (in addition to the kroot CC nerf, and the fish cost) - so, a strain leader is now almost the cost of a terminator? Um...what?
I will still use them....after all, I have 27 of them...
Backfire wrote: Seriously, I'm utterly puzzled who came up with the idea of Aun'va, and why. Putting him to a Tau army is like having Teddy Roosevelt lead up a charge on Omaha Beach.
shade1313 wrote: Way off topic, but do you mean Franklin D. Roosevelt? Cause Teddy leading a charge isn't a strange idea at all.
Trevak Dal wrote: If WWII had been during Teddy Roosevelt's 'prime' years, he most certainly would have been leading men during.
He was a politician who wanted a War (Spanish American War), and was so very much for it-he gave up his easy Politician job so he could fight.
Funny that this little OT exchange came about. Teddy Roosevelt was at Utah Beach. It wasn't the President of course. It was his oldest son, Teddy Roosevelt, Jr. That's probably why it came to mind in the first place. He was the oldest man in the invasion and the only general to land with the assault troops.
With a iridium armor commander, 3 crisis suits (one with full spectrum and command and control nod) and then 8 missile drones. That will be 22 s7 ap4 re-rollable no cover save shots. The spectrum armor is not needed, its just really good against non-MEQs, but the command and control nod is amazing to help out snap fire. The commander in front means only s10 weapons can instant kill him and between 2+ armor, 4 wounds and look out sir, there should be very few casualties. With a little marker light support all shots will be bs5. That is 3 dead TEQs, 7 dead MEQs a turn, 17 dead GEQs a turn, 1 dead night-scythe a turn, 1 dead 13av or lower tank a turn. All from 36" away.
You may not even need the commander if the iridium armor doesn't work out well (it worked out very well for me so far in 6th). We need to get an FAQ on drone controller because if missile drones are covered by drone controller the commander is absolutely necessary if it is not then you can take the commander out as 16 TL s7 ap4 shots work out pretty well on their own and that would make the unit 140 points cheaper. Other options are to give suits fusion blasters and target locks so they can blow up 14av tanks. I think the plasma rifles are a little better but the unit may not even need it. so the unit is 262-410 pts depending on what you have in it.
I think one of these and two riptides might be the way to go. I am actually thinking naked riptides with ion cannons might be the best way to go at it as t6 w5 sv2+ 5++ with a 72" gun will be almost impossible to kill. Really nothing should be able to assault it because of the jump pack and the only unit I would be worried about firing at it would be fire dragons. I really don't think it needs drones or defensive support, maybe early warning or velocity tracker but nothing else really.
All my firewarrior teams are going to be 9 firewarriors, 1 sash'ui and 2 missile drones. Seems like a real nice set up.
Drone controller is the biggest as the back entry says all drones and the front one says only gun, marker and sniper. And Whether AP1 effects our Ethereal friend.
Drone controller is the biggest as the back entry says all drones and the front one says only gun, marker and sniper. And Whether AP1 effects our Ethereal friend.
If you're talking Space Pope, his rules explicitly cover what effect AP1 has.
What does the rulebook mean that the CIB can be only taken "once per detachment?" As in, any crisis suit can take it but only 1 per army or 1 per squad?
BlueRift wrote: What does the rulebook mean that the CIB can be only taken "once per detachment?" As in, any crisis suit can take it but only 1 per army or 1 per squad?
Anyone have an exact reading on the "volley fire" rule of the Cadre Fireblade? I wonder because if it applies to longshot pulse rifles, then that could be a go-to source of ML's. Plus, extra shot snipers could be fun.
Thats 4 or 6 MLs at BS5 plus some potential dakka. Might be worth it even if volley fire doesn't apply. I sure hope it does though, I like the idea of this squad. Maybe it's a waste of an HQ slot but if you have some FW's nearby for scoring. He could change roles.
SabrX wrote:Is Fire Warriors compulsory or can I finally field all Kroots?
No compulsory units at all. 120 Kroot is a go (single force org that is)
BlueRift wrote:Anyone have an exact reading on the "volley fire" rule of the Cadre Fireblade? I wonder because if it applies to longshot pulse rifles, then that could be a go-to source of ML's. Plus, extra shot snipers could be fun.
Thats 4 or 6 MLs at BS5 plus some potential dakka. Might be worth it even if volley fire doesn't apply. I sure hope it does though, I like the idea of this squad. Maybe it's a waste of an HQ slot but if you have some FW's nearby for scoring. He could change roles.
Without pasting the entire rule text all I can say is that I don't think Volley Fire would apply, it pretty clearly states that it affects Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines. Whether Longshot Pulse Rifles are Pulse Rifles for the basis of this rule will likely end up in YMDC pretty quickly and will require a FAQ before it's 100% clear. I can tell you though that each weapon is a separate entry in the armory so it seems like they are two distinct weapons. If they wanted the rule to apply to Longshots they could have stated "pulse weapons" or something similar like they did for Etheral powers and the like.
tiberius183 wrote: Totally agree. Nice work, GW. You gave us the primary thing that us Tau players have been wanting for years: options.
Yep. I mean, just look what awesome new option Vespid got: they now have the option of NOT take the Strain Leader, and stay at Ld6. That's exactly what I wanted all those years.
Every codex contains some lemons too.
My early thoughts on this one are that we may see people trying to avoid using the Pathfinders and get markerlights from the HQ section.
Ethereals, Vespids, Sniper Drones and even the Hammerhead are not leaping off the page as must have units.
However that is all based on the rumours as I haven't got the book yet.
tiberius183 wrote: Totally agree. Nice work, GW. You gave us the primary thing that us Tau players have been wanting for years: options.
Yep. I mean, just look what awesome new option Vespid got: they now have the option of NOT take the Strain Leader, and stay at Ld6. That's exactly what I wanted all those years.
Every codex contains some lemons too.
My early thoughts on this one are that we may see people trying to avoid using the Pathfinders and get markerlights from the HQ section.
Ethereals, Vespids, Sniper Drones and even the Hammerhead are not leaping off the page as must have units.
However that is all based on the rumours as I haven't got the book yet.
Sniper drones look to be one of the best units in the book. They can rapid fire out to 24”, can move and fire, hit on 2+ due to BS5, rend, never wound on worse then 4+ against MC, cheap, have stealth. Surly they are the best snipers out of any army by far. I am almost tempted to take 36 of them. On top of all that with an Ethereal those snipers all get 3 shots out to 24".
Vespid I can see why some do not like them but for the type of boards I play on they look great in theory. We play with tons of ruins so that’s a 4+ save with a backup 3+cover save at T4, AP3 weapon out to 18” at S5. For a laugh one game I might just do x3 Vespid and x3 Sniper followed by fusion Battlesuits for anti tank and a few markerlight drones to boost Vespid BS and remove cover.
SabrX wrote: Can anyone confirm Invocation of Elements works outside vehicles? Space Pope needs his Pope Mobile!
You won't be able to put the Space Pope into a Devilfish if that is the direction your thoughts were heading. Aun'va is classified as Very Bulky and the Devilfish now has the restriction that it cannot carry passengers that are Bulky, Very Bulky, etc...
Aun'va seems like a huge liability, yes he is cheap and gives two buffs and some other nice rules. He has 4 wounds and each of his body guards have 2 for a total of 8 wounds on the unit. However they are toughness 3 no EW so they can be easily taken out by an Autocannon or something similar (autocannon would also mean he only gets a 4+ save due to his special rule) When he dies you will be giving up an extra VP so he is going to be a high priority target just for that.
Regular Etherals do not have the Bulky rule, however and I see no reason why their bubble wouldn't extend from the hull of a vehicle like the DA Banners do.
Regular Etherals do not have the Bulky rule, however and I see no reason why their bubble wouldn't extend from the hull of a vehicle like the DA Banners do.
That's what I was looking for. Sorry for confusing Aun'va with a regular Ethereal. Perhaps Space Cardinal instead?
Regular Etherals do not have the Bulky rule, however and I see no reason why their bubble wouldn't extend from the hull of a vehicle like the DA Banners do.
That's what I was looking for. Sorry for confusing Aun'va with a regular Ethereal. Perhaps Space Cardinal instead?
Yeah, the Pope ain't riding around in anything, but a regular Ethereal should work fine.
But I think Space Pope behind an Aegis with a bunch of Firewarriors seems incredibly nasty and here's why IMHO from my first read through:
Spoiler:
He's only 100 points, which includes his two bodyguards (dirt cheap for what he does IMHO). His big drawback is that he isn't an IC, so he can definitely get sniped out, which is why you'd need to keep him hidden behind some terrain or even better IMHO behind a nice Aegis Defense Line. He has a cool rule that any shooting attack he basically gets an extra save where he rolls a D6 and if its equal to or greater than the AP of the shooting the wound is discounted. I don't see any rule not allowing him to make that roll after taking normal cover save attempts, so if you put him behind the Aegis and then go to ground every time he's fired at (there's no reason beside moving him somewhere not to have him Go to Ground whenever needed), he's getting a 2+ cover save that if failed you get a 2nd chance to discount by rolling equal to or over the AP of the shooting. So with that and his 4 Wounds, he should be pretty safe from enemy shooting, even with his paltry T3.
Now what does he add to the army?
1) Like all Ethereals, he gives all units within 12" his Ld 10 on morale, pinning, fear and regroup tests, which is going to keep your firebase behind the Aegis nice and solid.
2) Like all Ehtereals each turn he's also able to give all units within 12" some really nice abilities...but unlike other Ethereals, he gives them TWO of these abilities instead of just 1. These choices are:
• Stubborn (when combined with using the Ethereal's Ld 10 means if you're getting threatened by an enemy CC unit you can send one of your units into combat with them and as long as you don't get wiped out on the charge your unit is basically going to be locked in that combat...and if you send in the right sized unit you should be able to time it out so that they get wiped out in combat in the opponent's turn, leaving you ready to shoot the enemy unit again.
• 6+ Feel No Pain...always useful, especially behind the Aegis.
• Units can fire snap shots after running...not particularly useful, but can be used in a pinch if you need to have the entire firebase fall back together...they can all move backwards (or sideways) in the movement phase, then run and still fire snap shots if you're desperately trying to avoid contact.
• The golden one: Pulse weapons fire an extra shot. Yes, pulse weapons fire an extra shot at half range. That is nuts, especially as that is extra shots added to that one round of shooting, meaning that extra shot is benefitting from any markerlights you're spending on that unit's shooting anyway. It pretty much guarantees that if you've got a couple full-sized squads of Firewarriors you are going to be able to TEAR UP most anything within 15" or 21" if you're willing to move your unit out from the Aegis. And this power starts until the start of your next movement phase, so it applies to OVERWATCH shooting as well!!! And let's not forget that Tau now get to fire Overwatch if a friendly unit within 6" is being charged. So if one of your two-full sized Firewarriors gets charged, they BOTH can shoot likely 36 shots EACH at the charging unit.
3) And now what I think is the kicker for Space Pope...he comes with the Warlord ability that, once per game, he makes all friendly units that have gone to ground get back up and act normally that turn. So again, if you're hiding your firebase behind an Aegis Line, one turn where you know the enemy has gambled everything to move up and threaten you, you can go to ground with everything, soak up all his firing, then bust your Warlord Trait on your turn, and OBLITERATE them.
So yeah, space pope seems amazing. I guess his one big, giant, huge drawback is that if the enemy kills him they get an extra VP, which combined with the fact that if you're using him to be your Warlord to get his fixed Warlord power that means he's worth an auto 2 VPs if killed...that is pretty painful for a model that is incredibly easy to kill if you get him in CC or shoot him with the right weapons...multi-lasers eek!).
I've noticed that markerlight BS bonus no longer has a restriction against benefiting other markerlights.
So if you're able to get like a single markerlight hit on a unit and before firing your Pathfinders at it, all of a sudden you'll be boosting your chance to get more markerlight hits.
I've noticed that markerlight BS bonus no longer has a restriction against benefiting other markerlights.
So if you're able to get like a single markerlight hit on a unit and before firing your Pathfinders at it, all of a sudden you'll be boosting your chance to get more markerlight hits.
Would you have to use that markerlight token to make the other markerlight hit better though? Or would it leave the token there?
Slightly annoyed that FW appear to have lost the ability to take a Black Sun Filter, and marker lights no longer remove night fighting.
Also I don't understand why they got rid of the detachment ability for sniper drone teams; even though they look interesting I'm less likely to take them now.
Okay, I think with the Tau book out in the wild now, as fun as this all is, this uber-thread about Tau rumors needs to be locked and other threads can be created to discuss the same topic in the 40K general discussion and/or 40K tactics forum.
if missile drones are covered by drone controller the commander is absolutely necessary if it is not then you can take the commander out as 16 
