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Post by: Verd_Warr
 Malisteen wrote:That's more dubious. Abaddon is available to the black legion, so that line could only be talking about the existing option to take chosen as troops with him in the army. Having to buy the vets upgrade is pretty solid, though. I'm hoping we get something decent for it, because it is not worth it on many or even most of the units that can take it, so it's definitely a penalty, rather than a neutral requirement.
And chaos chosen are not good, so even if they are troops without abby, I would not consider that an even trade. If they had access to drop pods or affordable assault transports maybe, but they don't.
Obviously subject to confirmation when someone has the rules in hand, but I'm betting (from the context of the paragraph, the fact that taking them only with Abby is not a change from the codex and iirc all the other supplements have done an unlock troops thing) that you can take them without him. As you've said, whether its useful or not is another question.
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Post by: Malisteen
If chosen are troops without abby, one would then wonder if abby gets something in place of his then redundant ability to make them troops himself.
Perhaps abby might make terminators troops then? Even if he did, would it be worth doing with a 300+ point tax on it between the big man and the vets requirement (3 points apiece on termies)? I wonder...
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Post by: l0k1
Perhaps he gives Chosen Votlw for free, or perhaps a points discount for taking them?
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Post by: shabbadoo
Chosen = Troops is an HQ type ability, meaning it is usually tied to a certain HQ choice. If it isn't , and is tied to the army list and no he HQs, it still functions just like similar abilities that many other HQs have...and yet you fell that because it is "free" fro everyone else that Abaddon should get some sort of replacement ability for his ability which is also effectively free. Somehow Abaddon is not setting the bar, but is being screwed out something, because even not considering this option, Abaddon is utterly not worth his points as it is. Seriously? This also means that you are not tied down having to fork out the points for Abaddon to take Chosen as Troops. And quit whining about "I wonder what we'll get for free?" If you hadn't figured it out yet, GW finally pulled their heads out of their collective butts and realized that giving free stuff skews the game out of balance even more than the rules that they write already do, so they are not doing it anymore. What you get are some "free" variant options, not truly free things. You get choice, but you still have to pay for the stuff you choose.
So, Black Legion get to do at least one thing that no other Chaos Legion can, and anyone should know at this point that this supplemental codex is not some sort of radical reimagining of the C: CSM, just a couple pages of rules for them alongside a ton of fluff information. Yes, this is one of those "Shut your face and enjoy your codex." moments, because you could be stuck just using C: CSM. You see, the glass is half-full, not half-empty.
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Post by: Malisteen
Theoretically part of what you pay for when you buy abaddon is the ability to take chosen as troops. If black legion already can take chosen as troops, then that would make abby less good in black legion armies than he is in regular armies. If death guard armies got troop plagues marines and plague zombies by default, then typhus would be less good in those armies as well.
Now, that's a bit facetious in abby's case, because troop chosen aren't really any good, especially if they have to buy vets, so it's something of a non-choice regardless, but still. There is a tax paid for troop chosen. That tax is part of abby's points cost, but, if the assumptions about the black legion supplement based on the preview pages are correct, that tax is also built into the black legion list by virtue of its vets requirements. Paying double the tax for the same dubious benefit is pretty meh, and I could see it bing the kind of thing a supplement writer may repay with some other rule. Not must, mind, not will. But may.
As for abby being worth his points on his own - he isn't. Oh he's tough and killy, but also slow as dirt, with a pathetic threat radius, and he costs more than a land raider. No, he isn't worth his points on his own. And since chosen troops are bad, he isn't worth his points at all. He can still be fun enough when played for fluff alone. It would be nice if his legion supplement made him a bit more tempting.
That's all wishlisting, though, neither here nor there.
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Post by: shabbadoo
Malisteen wrote:Theoretically part of what you pay for when you buy abaddon is the ability to take chosen as troops. If black legion already can take chosen as troops, then that would make abby less good in black legion armies than he is in regular armies. If death guard armies got troop plagues marines and plague zombies by default, then typhus would be less good in those armies as well.
Both untrue. It simply makes them less unique...in armies that they shouldn't be unique in for those features anyways. It does not make them worth less. Also, VotLW costs twice as much for Chosen because they will potentially use the benefits of the special rule twice as much. I know people like to feel outraged when things ramp up in cost when they become more effective for some reason, but that is what is being done. Besides, if you have lots of Chosen, you will simply have two less Chaos Marines in your mostly LD 10 & Hatred (Space Marines) army. That is the net effect, which does not exactly eviscerate an army list.
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Post by: Kirasu
It certainly makes them worth less and also less unique. If Abby theoretically costs 10 more points because he gives the ability to taken chosen as troops and now Black Legion can by DEFAULT take Chosen as troops then Abby is now worth 10 points less.
Same deal with Typhus, although there is no tax on the other chaos lords as there is with Abby as they are already incredibly cheap.
Part of what Malisteen is saying that A) Chosen troops suck, so you pay a tax on Abby for nothing.. and B) You pay a double tax on nothing if you can get chosen troops without Abby. Basically Abby is just pretty bad!
Funny how Farsight is also better if you run him in the normal Tau book..
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
I don't get why VotLW and chosen should be a Black Legion thing anyway. It really sounds like Black Legion is more about quantity over quality:
"The Black Legion is the largest of all the traitor legions to inhabit the Eye of Terror, vastly outnumbering even their closest rivals."
"To this end, he allowed any warrior to join the legion, provided they were willing to swear allegiance to him and him alone."
It doesn't sound like they're very discriminating about who they let in. So why should they be all about VotLW and chosen? Sure, it make sense for Abaddon's inner circle or personal warband, but not for Black Legion as a whole.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
 shabbadoo wrote:Chosen = Troops is an HQ type ability, meaning it is usually tied to a certain HQ choice. If it isn't , and is tied to the army list and no he HQs, it still functions just like similar abilities that many other HQs have...and yet you fell that because it is "free" fro everyone else that Abaddon should get some sort of replacement ability for his ability which is also effectively free. Somehow Abaddon is not setting the bar, but is being screwed out something, because even not considering this option, Abaddon is utterly not worth his points as it is. Seriously? This also means that you are not tied down having to fork out the points for Abaddon to take Chosen as Troops. And quit whining about "I wonder what we'll get for free?" If you hadn't figured it out yet, GW finally pulled their heads out of their collective butts and realized that giving free stuff skews the game out of balance even more than the rules that they write already do, so they are not doing it anymore. What you get are some "free" variant options, not truly free things. You get choice, but you still have to pay for the stuff you choose. So, Black Legion get to do at least one thing that no other Chaos Legion can, and anyone should know at this point that this supplemental codex is not some sort of radical reimagining of the C: CSM, just a couple pages of rules for them alongside a ton of fluff information. Yes, this is one of those "Shut your face and enjoy your codex." moments, because you could be stuck just using C: CSM. You see, the glass is half-full, not half-empty.
yeah cos space marines get ATSKNF, and the different legions within their book get combat tactics, infact id go even further to say that the SM codex will be layed out in such a way as the CSM codex should be, allowing multiple legions/chapters all individualised in what they can do, so far CSM has a MC that uses vehicle rules where others dont (riptide, giant nids, wraithknight), i would also suspect that if the basic marine codex has an assault specialist they will be better than beserkers or have grenades unlike warptalons. so being black legion will mean a basic marine costs an extra point, taking anything else is up to 3ppm more expensive, but no, in an army list that already has expensive things, lets not give a REAL incentive to use it.... im really hoping that this book is the first of the legion books and does some fixing, personally ill be hanging for a thousand sons supplement or a way that makes them viable. but then again the first 6th ed book wont be straightned out, and we will get to see the posterboys looking very shiny.
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Post by: Ecarhil
Black legion supplement is up on the site.
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Post by: Johnson101
I'm actually excited as if this supplement does make Chosen troops I'll finally be able to legally run by Zone Mortalis Chaos Space Marine army. I don't really care if chosen are woeful running an army made up mainly of three Chosen squads along with Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, a Dreadnought and Obliterators is alot of fun.
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Post by: Meade
Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...
but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
 Meade wrote:Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...
but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.
The basic codex is not Black Legion.
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Post by: ghpoobah
Of course rather than wildly speculating about it we could all just hang on until Friday and we'll all know, would be interesting to see what the BL specific Warlord traits are!
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Post by: Imposter101
 ZebioLizard2 wrote: Meade wrote:Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...
but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.
The basic codex is not Black Legion.
It's just absolutely fine at representing them, and you really don't need this supplement to accurately depict them.
I can't remember who, but someone did note the fact that while the Black Legion will accept anyone who swears themselves to Abaddon, but are yet all veterans of the long war is fairly contradicting.
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Post by: Rayvon
Im looking forward to it me, A whole book devoted to my beloved black legion !!
I asked in WW at the weekend and they were saying it may be as late as november for the release of the physical copy, although I doubt they really know lol.
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Post by: Malisteen
That, and we have confirmation of new warlord traits, which was previously just speculation afaik.
It's nice to hear Black Legion termies are getting some sort of love, as the vets requirement (if indeed that turns out to be a thing) hits them pretty hard. Cheap price is about the only thing chaos termies really have going for them, and 3 points a model for vets starts to undermine that advantage fairly quickly. It would be a shame if Black Legion players stopped fielding terminators altogether, so hopefully whatever it is they're getting is pretty cool.
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Post by: Imposter101
Malisteen wrote:That, and we have confirmation of new warlord traits, which was previously just speculation afaik.
It's nice to hear Black Legion termies are getting some sort of love, as the vets requirement (if indeed that turns out to be a thing) hits them pretty hard. Cheap price is about the only thing chaos termies really have going for them, and 3 points a model for vets starts to undermine that advantage fairly quickly. It would be a shame if Black Legion players stopped fielding terminators altogether, so hopefully whatever it is they're getting is pretty cool.
It's possible that the Termy rule is based around the elite Justaerin Terminators that were lead by Abaddon during the Great crusade, and Horus heresy.
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Post by: Malisteen
all sorts of things are possible. an elite termy retinue for abby, possibly benefiting from his quadramark while he's attached? Troop termies with abbadon, since chosen seem like they might be troops already without him? Some sort of 'termie assault' rule, deep striking in the first turn, or charging the turn they deep strike a la loyalist vanguard? Access to teleport homers or some other form of scatter mitigation? Unique wargear upgrades - perhaps terminator possessed?
Who even knows. It could be amazing, or terrible, or just a cosmetic cookie with little to no game play effect. I'm excited to see more, but not exactly getting my hopes up.
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Post by: Imposter101
Malisteen wrote:all sorts of things are possible. an elite termy retinue for abby, possibly benefiting from his quadramark while he's attached? Troop termies with abbadon, since chosen seem like they might be troops already without him? Some sort of 'termie assault' rule, deep striking in the first turn, or charging the turn they deep strike a la loyalist vanguard? Access to teleport homers or some other form of scatter mitigation? Unique wargear upgrades - perhaps terminator possessed?
Who even knows. It could be amazing, or terrible, or just a cosmetic cookie with little to no game play effect. I'm excited to see more, but not exactly getting my hopes up.
The assault rule would fit into the whole Justaerin aspect of being the 'spear' of the attack, I mean, hopefully they can input unique traits into the book. Maybe some characters from the Horus Heresy series, which are quickly forgotten when we move into the current era.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
 Imposter101 wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote: Meade wrote:Oh so I already paid for a codex, but now I need to get this other book that supposedly represents better the very basic army that my chaos codex is supposed to represent. So now my codex is.... a bland mushy cereal with some helldrakey candy sprinkled on top? Thank you GW Corporate. I mean I may have been excited for something like, I don't know, any other Legion in a world of chaos that is just as detailed as that of loyalist space marines in the lore but lacks any rules to represent them...
but instead I get this... well I would rather slam my penis in a car door than buy this.
The basic codex is not Black Legion.
It's just absolutely fine at representing them, and you really don't need this supplement to accurately depict them.
I can't remember who, but someone did note the fact that while the Black Legion will accept anyone who swears themselves to Abaddon, but are yet all veterans of the long war is fairly contradicting.
The fact that the Black Legion contains all sorts of warriors of every type and from all four gods only kinda reinforces the whole "Black Legion didn't need a supplement because C: CSM represented them just fine" thing even more. About the only place where C: CSM fails to fully represent the Black Legion is fluff-wise (well, and perhaps special characters, though special characters are kinda a fluff thing in the first place). In fact, this supplement contradicts itself by saying that the Black Legion are all veterans of the long war and elite while also saying that the Black Legion accepts anyone as long as they pledge their allegiance to Abaddon, and that they operate as separate warbands except when there's a Black Crusade.
Which basically means that, by what we know so far, C: CSM represents the Black Legion rules-wise better than this supplement does. This supplement looks like it would have more aptly been named "Elite of the Black Legion" (everyone's a veteran of the long war, and the book possibly includes more Black Legion special characters) instead of "Black Legion". Or perhaps "Black Legion: Crusades", I suppose.
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Post by: Malisteen
The regular Eldar book was 'Absolutely fine' at representing Iyanden, though, and they were still the first Eldar supplement. And while the army list in the CSM book may cover Black Legion well enough, the same cannot be said for the fluff section, which leaves them largely devoid of distinguishing personality, not a terribly acceptable state for what are supposed to be the poster boys for the faction.
You can say this is functionally 'supplement ultramarines', but ultramarines are the overwhelming focus of the fluff, narrative, and art of the space marine book, with all sorts of detail on what they're like and how they do things, several unique personalities rather than just one, and even a unique regiment that directly ties into some of their most notable historical battles. The black legion got little and less of that out of the CSM book, which takes a much broader view of the faction than the soon-to-be-replaced space marine book, and where it does dive into detail, it's on smaller, lesser known, more recent renegade warbands.
Anyway, it's the kind of fluff that the Ultramarines got in the current Space Marine book that I'm hoping to get for Black Legion in this new supplement. It's fluff that they need, and since these supplements seem to be 98% fluff, with a dollop of rules as an afterthought, Black Legion seem like a perfectly reasonable choice for the first supplement to me.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Malisteen wrote:The regular Eldar book was 'Absolutely fine' at representing Iyanden, though, and they were still the first Eldar supplement. And while the army list in the CSM book may cover Black Legion well enough, the same cannot be said for the fluff section, which leaves them largely devoid of distinguishing personality, not a terribly acceptable state for what are supposed to be the poster boys for the faction.
You can say this is functionally 'supplement ultramarines', but ultramarines are the overwhelming focus of the fluff, narrative, and art of the space marine book, with all sorts of detail on what they're like and how they do things, several unique personalities rather than just one, and even a unique regiment that directly ties into some of their most notable historical battles.
That's the kind of thing I'm hoping to see out of the Black Legion book. It's the fluff that they need, and since these supplements seem to be 98% fluff, with a drop of rules as an afterthought, Black Legion seem like a perfectly reasonable choice for the first supplement to me.
Yea, pretty much. Like I said, C: CSM failed to represent the Black Legion in terms of fluff. It's just that rules-wise, it's actually BETTER at representing the generic Black Legion warband than this supplement is, from what we know so far. Which is why this supplement should probably have been named either "Elite of the Black Legion" or "Black Legion: Crusades", in terms of rules. In terms of fluff, though, "Black Legon" is fine and good. It's just weird when the rules directly contradict most of the fluff inside it, due to the rules being more relative to the elite of the Black Legion while the fluff is related to the Black Legion as a whole (from what we've seen so far).
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Post by: 6^
If there is a new warlord traits table, will Abaddon still have to take Black Crusader from C:CSM?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
If it work like Lyanden you'll either play from C:SM or Black Legion,
no mixing and matching rules/units, so Abadon from C:SM will play exactly as he did before, Abadon from Black Legion we need to wait and see what rules he has
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Post by: Exergy
Verses wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/ gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064
New terminator rules? Interesting.
Cult players are going to be either so happy or soo pissed if BL suddenly gets fearless nasty elite terminators
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Post by: Brother SRM
Malisteen wrote:That, and we have confirmation of new warlord traits, which was previously just speculation afaik.
It's nice to hear Black Legion termies are getting some sort of love, as the vets requirement (if indeed that turns out to be a thing) hits them pretty hard. Cheap price is about the only thing chaos termies really have going for them, and 3 points a model for vets starts to undermine that advantage fairly quickly. It would be a shame if Black Legion players stopped fielding terminators altogether, so hopefully whatever it is they're getting is pretty cool.
Well, every supplement has had different warlord traits, so that's not really a surprise.
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Post by: Malisteen
Not a surprise, I just wanted to note the official confirmation.
I expect that Abaddon with maintain the same default warlord trait from Codex: CSM, and that the same trait will appear in the Black Legion's trait table.
But know knowing for sure until someone with an ipad confirms it for us this weekend.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
 Exergy wrote:Verses wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/ gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064
New terminator rules? Interesting.
Cult players are going to be either so happy or soo pissed if BL suddenly gets fearless nasty elite terminators
Roll on the Death Guard supplement and just give me my Fearless FNP Plague Terminators, k?
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Malisteen wrote:Not a surprise, I just wanted to note the official confirmation.
I expect that Abaddon with maintain the same default warlord trait from Codex: CSM, and that the same trait will appear in the Black Legion's trait table.
But know knowing for sure until someone with an ipad confirms it for us this weekend.
Not necesarly, look at Farsight, in the supplement he still got the Victory through Boldness trait from the ETau book, but this trait isn't in the supplement book.
So i suspect Abby to still being a Black Crusader( wich is a fine trait imo) and there will be 6 new traits.
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Post by: AhrimansBolter
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
Nowhere nearly worth that cost. If all the attacks were with that profile it'd be accurately costed.
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Post by: Kirasu
1 attack for 50 points? Not exactly very useful..
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Post by: AhrimansBolter
I dunno. I am thinking all the monsterous creatures that would crumble with that.
Nids, riptides, wraithknights... they'd want no part of that thing.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
one attack per round of combat. its not a total one use only. and please god no ones to hit...
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
 ausYenLoWang wrote:
one attack per round of combat. its not a total one use only. and please god no ones to hit...
Hmm, so you'll get S8, AP1, 2+ to wound, with instant death.
Not a bad thing actually. It's a MC killer through and through. Throw it on a biker lord and charge him and his group at the nastiest thing and attempt to sever its lights.
And as a bonus, it's not unwieldy! MoS Actually works with it!
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Post by: Malisteen
Maybe on an outflanking MoS cavalry lord? Even so, I don't think it's worth the points for the one attack.
I do like the fluff, though, so I'm happy enough with it either way.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Would have been cooler if it functioned like Drach'nyen bzck in 3ed dex.
You make all your attacks as usual, and you can make ONE separate attack using the hand of Darkness.
That would be worthy.
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Post by: Diablix
Many MCs have higher initiative than a Chaos Lord, even with MOS. And most of the scariest one have access to instant death or STR 10 attacks, so it is quite likely that it won't be even able to use it. Not to mention that is likely you still have to roll to hit, I didn't read about auto-hit from that preview.... Auto VotLW, chosens as troops and this... Really a bad start. Hope it gets better
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Post by: AhrimansBolter
I disagree. I think its a good start.
Remember it has been confirmed that there will be some new rules to terminators.
Also, if this is the ONLY new artifact, then I can see it being a bad start. But if its just 1 of a few new ones, then I think this artifact is a great tool at taking out single high-point models one after the other.
Destroy High armour tank.
Kill monstrous creature.
Kill HQ in challenge.
Of course you have to roll decent, but taking out a 3. 4. or 5 wound HQ in one round of combat will more than make up for its points.
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Post by: Diablix
As I said the problem is that most of the time you won't be able to use it because you won't survive the first round of a challenge against a MC.
I did not say it's a bad supplement, because we need to see the full book. Just said that all we have seen so far is quite bad IMHO. Because "new rules for terminators" does not necessarily mean they will be good 
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Post by: AhrimansBolter
Diablix wrote:As I said the problem is that most of the time you won't be able to use it because you won't survive the first round of a challenge against a MC.
I did not say it's a bad supplement, because we need to see the full book. Just said that all we have seen so far is quite bad IMHO. Because "new rules for terminators" does not necessarily mean they will be good
I get what your saying. I suppose I a a little optimistic about it is all. Who knows, it could have things in it that no one expected.
In any case, I hope more rules leak out. I'd like to really get a grasp on the direction they are taking with the black legion as a whole. This book will be the new standard on how we think about them, not just in gameplay, but in fluff. as well.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Diablix wrote:Many MCs have higher initiative than a Chaos Lord, even with MOS. And most of the scariest one have access to instant death or STR 10 attacks, so it is quite likely that it won't be even able to use it. Not to mention that is likely you still have to roll to hit, I didn't read about auto-hit from that preview.... Auto VotLW, chosens as troops and this... Really a bad start. Hope it gets better
Hmm, A MoS lord with it would hit before all the Tyranid's MC's except for the Hive Tyrant/swarmlord, they'd be swinging together at I5.
With CSM/CD he'd be swinging after everything except GUO, Fateweaver.
Striking before Dreadknights, Riptides, Wraithlords, C'tan Shards.
Striking WraithKnights at the same time
Striking after Avatar.
Did I miss any? There's also alotta expensive HQ's that don't have access to Eternal Warrior. Would be lucky if that Chaos Lord gained EW from a gift roll beforehand though. 
He'd also autoglance AV10 (S8 + 2D6) and could do well against vehicles.
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Post by: Exergy
 DarkStarSabre wrote: Exergy wrote:Verses wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/ gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064
New terminator rules? Interesting.
Cult players are going to be either so happy or soo pissed if BL suddenly gets fearless nasty elite terminators
Roll on the Death Guard supplement and just give me my Fearless FNP Plague Terminators, k?
rumor is the cult legions arent getting supplements Automatically Appended Next Post: AhrimansBolter wrote:I disagree. I think its a good start.
Remember it has been confirmed that there will be some new rules to terminators.
Also, if this is the ONLY new artifact, then I can see it being a bad start. But if its just 1 of a few new ones, then I think this artifact is a great tool at taking out single high-point models one after the other.
Destroy High armour tank.
Kill monstrous creature.
Kill HQ in challenge.
Of course you have to roll decent, but taking out a 3. 4. or 5 wound HQ in one round of combat will more than make up for its points.
doesnt the murder sword already do that? Automatically Appended Next Post:
so instead of your normal 4-5 attacks you can make 1 special attack, that will likely miss. Sure it wounds on 2+, sure it will probably autopen vehicle, sure it inflicts ID.
it will in all likelyhood miss. The times your really want it to ID someone, they will have EW.
50 points? screw this I am going to play my CSM as count as ultramarines and get to reroll to hit with all my shooting weapons.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Exergy wrote: DarkStarSabre wrote: Exergy wrote:Verses wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/ gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=10400064
New terminator rules? Interesting.
Cult players are going to be either so happy or soo pissed if BL suddenly gets fearless nasty elite terminators
Roll on the Death Guard supplement and just give me my Fearless FNP Plague Terminators, k?
rumor is the cult legions arent getting supplements
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AhrimansBolter wrote:I disagree. I think its a good start.
Remember it has been confirmed that there will be some new rules to terminators.
Also, if this is the ONLY new artifact, then I can see it being a bad start. But if its just 1 of a few new ones, then I think this artifact is a great tool at taking out single high-point models one after the other.
Destroy High armour tank.
Kill monstrous creature.
Kill HQ in challenge.
Of course you have to roll decent, but taking out a 3. 4. or 5 wound HQ in one round of combat will more than make up for its points.
doesnt the murder sword already do that?
That rumor is heavily contested by other rumors.
Also the Murder Sword is only specific to ONE model, and is a basic power sword otherwise, also it's only 15 points to upgrade up to the Hand of Darkness over the Murder Sword.
The Hand of Darkness (DARKNESS FINGER!): Is always available, doesn't take up a melee slot so you can take like a lightning claw if you want, also it deals better with vehicle armour (since it's always S8+ with 2D6 against vehicles)
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Post by: AhrimansBolter
AhrimansBolter wrote:I disagree. I think its a good start.
Remember it has been confirmed that there will be some new rules to terminators.
Also, if this is the ONLY new artifact, then I can see it being a bad start. But if its just 1 of a few new ones, then I think this artifact is a great tool at taking out single high-point models one after the other.
Destroy High armour tank.
Kill monstrous creature.
Kill HQ in challenge.
Of course you have to roll decent, but taking out a 3. 4. or 5 wound HQ in one round of combat will more than make up for its points.
doesnt the murder sword already do that?
Not really. The murder sword is good for a single character.
This new artifact can be used on anyone, so you can kill multiple big threats throughout the game.
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Post by: Exergy
AhrimansBolter wrote:AhrimansBolter wrote:I disagree. I think its a good start.
Remember it has been confirmed that there will be some new rules to terminators.
Also, if this is the ONLY new artifact, then I can see it being a bad start. But if its just 1 of a few new ones, then I think this artifact is a great tool at taking out single high-point models one after the other.
Destroy High armour tank.
Kill monstrous creature.
Kill HQ in challenge.
Of course you have to roll decent, but taking out a 3. 4. or 5 wound HQ in one round of combat will more than make up for its points.
doesnt the murder sword already do that?
Not really. The murder sword is good for a single character.
This new artifact can be used on anyone, so you can kill multiple big threats throughout the game.
I really dont think giving up all of your attacks for one attack that will just as likely miss, fail to wound or get saved is worth it.
It is very useful against vehicles, but hey so is a chainfist.
Hitting a riptide 3+ then 2+ then 3+(fail save) 36% to kill if it's hasnt nova charged its reactor. 18% if it has.
36% to kill a dreadknight, VotLW helps a bit
36% to kill a wraithknight with shield
36% to kill most daemons, unless they are WS 6(5 with AoBF)
27% to kill a daemon with WS6
55% to kill a wraithknight without a shield, most nid MC's fit this category
It wont kill the swarmlord even without EW. going to be striking last anyway and only 20% chance to do one wound.
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Post by: AhrimansBolter
Exergy wrote:
I really dont think giving up all of your attacks for one attack that will just as likely miss, fail to wound or get saved is worth it.
It is very useful against vehicles, but hey so is a chainfist.
Hitting a riptide 3+ then 2+ then 3+(fail save) 36% to kill if it's hasnt nova charged its reactor. 18% if it has.
36% to kill a dreadknight, VotLW helps a bit
36% to kill a wraithknight with shield
36% to kill most daemons, unless they are WS 6(5 with AoBF)
27% to kill a daemon with WS6
55% to kill a wraithknight without a shield, most nid MC's fit this category
It wont kill the swarmlord even without EW. going to be striking last anyway and only 20% chance to do one wound.
Doesn't the riptide have no inv. save if it does not nova charge? I could be wrong on this.
In any case, rather than slaanesh, one could use a nurgle bike lord to absorb those S10 hits and stay alive longer. With Sigil of corruption, you'd have a decent chance of staying alive.
I'm not saying this weapon is AMAZING, but it is an interesting tool, especially if you know you'll be up against some heavy tanks or big MC's.
I still look forward to the rest of the rules.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Diablix wrote:Many MCs have higher initiative than a Chaos Lord, even with MOS. And most of the scariest one have access to instant death or STR 10 attacks, so it is quite likely that it won't be even able to use it. Not to mention that is likely you still have to roll to hit, I didn't read about auto-hit from that preview.... Auto VotLW, chosens as troops and this... Really a bad start. Hope it gets better
Hmm, A MoS lord with it would hit before all the Tyranid's MC's except for the Hive Tyrant/swarmlord, they'd be swinging together at I5.
With CSM/CD he'd be swinging after everything except GUO, Fateweaver.
Striking before Dreadknights, Riptides, Wraithlords, C'tan Shards.
Striking WraithKnights at the same time
Striking after Avatar.
Did I miss any? There's also alotta expensive HQ's that don't have access to Eternal Warrior. Would be lucky if that Chaos Lord gained EW from a gift roll beforehand though.
He'd also autoglance AV10 (S8 + 2D6) and could do well against vehicles.
just checked my codex, Lord starts there and MoS bring him to I6.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
ausYenLoWang wrote: ZebioLizard2 wrote:Diablix wrote:Many MCs have higher initiative than a Chaos Lord, even with MOS. And most of the scariest one have access to instant death or STR 10 attacks, so it is quite likely that it won't be even able to use it. Not to mention that is likely you still have to roll to hit, I didn't read about auto-hit from that preview.... Auto VotLW, chosens as troops and this... Really a bad start. Hope it gets better
Hmm, A MoS lord with it would hit before all the Tyranid's MC's except for the Hive Tyrant/swarmlord, they'd be swinging together at I5.
With CSM/CD he'd be swinging after everything except GUO, Fateweaver.
Striking before Dreadknights, Riptides, Wraithlords, C'tan Shards.
Striking WraithKnights at the same time
Striking after Avatar.
Did I miss any? There's also alotta expensive HQ's that don't have access to Eternal Warrior. Would be lucky if that Chaos Lord gained EW from a gift roll beforehand though.
He'd also autoglance AV10 (S8 + 2D6) and could do well against vehicles.
just checked my codex, Lord starts there and MoS bring him to I6.
Whoops.
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Post by: Diablix
Such a Bike Lord would easily cost 190+ points, because you have to spend points on this artifact, on the bike and the Mark of Slaanesh. In Addition it would make sense to me to buy at least a ligthning claw, otherwise it would be easily tarpitted by large units of cheap models and made useless with his default pitiful S4 AP- attacks. And it's likely you'll want to protect your huge investment with a Sigil of Corruption. For a grand total of 190 points Power Armour guy that is NOT an eternal warrior and can be killed by any S10 attack.
Yes, he's faster than some MCs, but slower than many others, which by pure accident are also the most troublesome ones.
Because you must also consider that there are MCs which are psykers, allowing them to have that cool initiative bonus (like the Swarmlord IIRC)
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Post by: Lockark
AhrimansBolter wrote:I dunno. I am thinking all the monsterous creatures that would crumble with that.
Nids, riptides, wraithknights... they'd want no part of that thing.
I'm also going to throw out their that it's also a single Chainfist attack that is used at initiative. It's also not a specialist melee weapon. I could see pairing it off with a Power sword on a Combat beast Chaos lord.
Heck, put it on a slaanesh marked chaos lord, and go for the instant gib in challenges for the lulz.
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Post by: Exergy
 Lockark wrote:AhrimansBolter wrote:I dunno. I am thinking all the monsterous creatures that would crumble with that.
Nids, riptides, wraithknights... they'd want no part of that thing.
I'm also going to throw out their that it's also a single Chainfist attack that is used at initiative. It's also not a specialist melee weapon. I could see pairing it off with a Power sword on a Combat beast Chaos lord.
Heck, put it on a slaanesh marked chaos lord, and go for the instant gib in challenges for the lulz.
it isnt a weapon, so you can take it with your powerfist+lighting claw. The issue is that you must trade all of your attacks to use it. Against a riptide you are already wounding on 2+ with your powerfist. You have 5 attacks and each attack has a 36% to wound, but because you attack 5 times you will average 1.8 wounds per round. If you use this artifact, you have a 36% to kill it outright. If it had 6 wounds that averages out to 2.16 wounds per round.
That certainly is an improvement, 2.16 to 1.8,
BUT
It's 50 points!
If the riptide has already taken damage you are better off doing constant damage rather than hoping for one lucky shot. Automatically Appended Next Post: AhrimansBolter wrote:
Doesn't the riptide have no inv. save if it does not nova charge? I could be wrong on this.
Tides have a 5++ all the time and can get a 3++ if they nova charge it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Lockark wrote:AhrimansBolter wrote:
I'm also going to throw out their that it's also a single Chainfist attack that is used at initiative.
It's a single attack though, you have to sacrifice all of your other attacks. I really think this is best on a MoS asipiring champion. He only forfiets 3 attacks to use it. A chaos lord loses 5(better) attacks.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
just reading the fluff blurb for this thing, it was given to mortarion, to get them to come on the 13th crusade. now to me it reads almost like this is one item that was used to get one of the god specific legions to come, what did abby pay the others with? so there may be one per god specific legion. lets hope everyone gets a nice little bit of love.
and damn i was reading that artifact as you could instead make one of your attacks the special one, not trade all of them.... :( and i wonder if these items will have the same rule as the other daemon weapons, 1 per army, and must trade off another weapon to have them.
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Post by: Malisteen
Chaos artifacts are weapons and replace weapons by default, unless the rules for it specifically say otherwise. So you can't give a lord two weapons plus the hand, although you could argue that the hand could replace the twin linked bolters on a bike (as some already do with the brand). That's kind of stretching the rules there.
Again, unless it specifically says otherwise and I missed it.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Malisteen wrote:Chaos artifacts are weapons and replace weapons by default, unless the rules for it specifically say otherwise. So you can't give a lord two weapons plus the hand, although you could argue that the hand could replace the twin linked bolters on a bike (as some already do with the brand). That's kind of stretching the rules there.
Again, unless it specifically says otherwise and I missed it.
Or just the bolter/bolt pistol, if your using it as a melee lord anyways you're probably gonna be running a LC.
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Post by: Juggalo17
Now the digital copy is out is anyone able to do us a QnA? It would be much appreciated
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Post by: The Spiritseer
ausYenLoWang wrote:
just reading the fluff blurb for this thing, it was given to mortarion, to get them to come on the 13th crusade. now to me it reads almost like this is one item that was used to get one of the god specific legions to come, what did abby pay the others with? so there may be one per god specific legion. lets hope everyone gets a nice little bit of love.
and damn i was reading that artifact as you could instead make one of your attacks the special one, not trade all of them.... :( and i wonder if these items will have the same rule as the other daemon weapons, 1 per army, and must trade off another weapon to have them.
I suspect all "God-affiliated" legions will get an item.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Well, it's out for purchase and download now. So shouldn't be long before we hear all about it.
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Post by: Juggalo17
If anyone has a copy and wants to clarify some rumors it would be appreciated lol
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Post by: Quintinus
From some dude on B&C who downloaded it
Just had a quick flip through the new artefacts are neat as are warlord traits. Can ally with c:csm and chosen are troops by default. Votlw mandatory and if taking abaddon, one unit of termies can get +1 ws and bs for a price. No new units or characters.
:edit: On warseer Cheexsta wrote:
Supplement is out in Australia.
There's a new Daemon Sword, slightly cheaper than the Axe of a Blind Fury. Gives a bonus to initiative. Should've always been in the codex, IMHO.
There's an awesome artefact that allows the bearer to fire an unlimited range large blast that scores D3 automatic penetrating hits to any vehicle it touches, usable once per game. Very expensive, though.
A psyker-only artefact increases the bearer's mastery by 1, though it doesn't allow him to generate another power (boo). Instead, it gives him a Nova power that increases range with more Warp Charge points.
Oh hey, an artefact that gives Eternal Warrior and Adamanitium Will. Nice. Not cheap, though.
Warlord Traits:
1. Black Crusader
2. Rerolls to Chaos Boon table for the Warlord.
3. A one-use Flamer. Woo.
4. Warlord has IWND.
5. Attacks have a chance of causing Instant Death.
6. Friendly units near the Warlord have Stubborn.
Haven't looked at the fluff or CoD or Planetstrike sections yet.
Seems interesting so far, I'm looking forward to seeing points costs. Looks reasonably inspired so far!
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Post by: bogalubov
Sounds like I get to save 30 bucks.
I guess the supplements really are for collectors. None of the 3 books so far have been an improvement over the original codex. I suppose in the case of Eldar and Tau an improvement would have been hard as those books are excellent. I had hope that the BL would allow some manipulation of the FOC.
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Post by: DarthDiggler
bogalubov wrote:. I had hope that the BL would allow some manipulation of the FOC.
It does. You get to take 4 Heldrakes when you ally with CSM.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
because thats EXACTLY what we want/need.
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Post by: SickSix
Sounds like a bummer.
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Post by: MPJ
I've just flicked through the rules and I'm quite disappointed. I own the Eldar and Tau supplements and I really liked them, especially the Eldar one. Black Legion however, which just happens to be my favourite Chaos army, seems to have been given a rather mediocre supplement to go with the codex. Most of the warlord traits are good, but the special rules aren't that great and only some of the artefacts are worth the points. Rather a shame to be honest. Looks like another edition of no love for the Chaos boys
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Post by: DaddyWarcrimes
To be fair, with how terrible the CSM warlord traits are, any option to replace them is a good one. Really, they got one that isn't horrible and that one is best acquired by taking Huron.
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Post by: Sasori
Could anyone that has it, Elaborate on the rules a bit more?
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Post by: techsoldaten
Yeah, you guys are reading this all wrong.
Chaos just got a 175 point CSM unit with 5 plasma that can score.
Who cares about warlord traits when I can run 6 of these squads and 3 heldrakes? Anything else is icing.
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Post by: DaddyWarcrimes
Chaos could do that before. Abaddon made CSM Chosen Troops. Now, you can do that without paying for Abbie, and take a 4th Heldrake along for the ride. Letting supplement forces ally with the main book might be one of those things that GW fixes in a hurry.
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Post by: MPJ
 techsoldaten wrote:Yeah, you guys are reading this all wrong.
Chaos just got a 175 point CSM unit with 5 plasma that can score.
Who cares about warlord traits when I can run 6 of these squads and 3 heldrakes? Anything else is icing.
Unfortunately that kind of army does nothing for me as I hate spam and like to actually have choices from all over the book
Of course, I'm not a competitive gamer, so maybe my point is irrelevant lol
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Post by: techsoldaten
Yeah, but you had to take Abaddon, and now you can do this with a cheap CL. That's hardly the same.
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Post by: livanbard
I don't see how a codex should be able to ally with it's own supplement. And now C:SM power gamers want to ally with C:SM because "chapter tactics". This is getting funny.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
 livanbard wrote:I don't see how a codex should be able to ally with it's own supplement. And now C: SM power gamers want to ally with C: SM because "chapter tactics". This is getting funny.
A codex =/= a single unified army. Supplements provide for alternate factions that use the same basic ruleset as the main codex, but are apart from it. Codex: UM seems to be a case of being more like a compendium of 7 supplements all in one book with the chapter traits system. And hopefully Chaos MArines will get a similar treatment to cover the legions later.
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Post by: Davor
GW not selling enough Helldrakes that is why they letting the BL field 4 of them now? 
How is the stories in the BL supplement?
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Post by: kcwm
So no new land raider variants or terminators as troops in the supplement?
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Post by: Malisteen
techsoldaten wrote:Who cares about warlord traits when I can run 6 of these squads and 3 heldrakes? Anything else is icing.
You mean anything else is over your points limit? Those chosen aren't going to get within range to shoot anything without rhinos, and with rhinos just what you listed above comes to 1740 points. And that's without an HQ, without anti-air apart from drakes, which aren't exactly great at that, without an answer for AV14, and with only 30 scoring bodies, all of which die like regular CSMs despite costing nearly three times the points, and that's before taking casualties to your own plasmafire. I'm not saying plasma chosen spam won't be a thing for Black Legion, it very well may be, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's going to be as big a thing as you're making out.
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Post by: techsoldaten
Davor wrote:GW not selling enough Helldrakes that is why they letting the BL field 4 of them now?
How is the stories in the BL supplement?
If anything, I have a feeling people will want to field more Chosen instead of Heldrakes under the new rules. A 5 man plasma squad costs about the same and is going to be able to affect a wider range of units. For that matter, it's cheaper to give them all meltas.
While I realize part of the appeal of a Heldrake is the fact it flies, diversity rarely hurts an army and it's not like these guys are guardsmen. With making Chosen troops, Chaos just got a lot more diverse.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
i can see no real reason to run this book as anything other than an ally detachment. it just makes every unit more expensive to take ( enforced VotLW ) , the terminator buff costs as much as a 2 LC and can only be 1 unit when abby is the wl in the primary detachment and the artefacts are a touch average and cant be mixed with the main codex ones.... another sad day for csm
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Post by: Malisteen
techsoldaten wrote:While I realize part of the appeal of a Heldrake is the fact it flies, diversity rarely hurts an army and it's not like these guys are guardsmen. With making Chosen troops, Chaos just got a lot more diverse.
Maybe. Chosen are pricey, especially with the required vets upgrades, and so are their options. And they notably lack the transport options that make loyalist sternguard intimidating. It's a lot harder to get your 200 point squad of five marines into rapid fire or melta range with a rhino than it is with a drop pod.
If Black Legion can't field the artifacts from the main dex, then that is a significant blow as well. The burning brand is more effective and points efficient than anything we've heard about from the BL supplement, and the blinding axe is chaos's only native option for AP2 melee at initiative outside of the crazy expensive daemon prince. While it's nice to finally have a daemon sword, going from two daemon weapons to one isn't inspiring, either.
Also, the appeal of the drake is that it slaughters any infantry short of terminators, and does so while ignoring cover, and after cracking their transports itself with its vector strike, and that it does all that while being incredibly cheap and nigh impossible to bring down. Chosen score in GL armies, sure, but that's only if they survive the match. Dead models don't score, and squads of five chosen are super fragile, easily gunned down or chopped apart by pretty much anything that looks at them funny, and with plasma they cost more than drakes, even before their rhinos.
I'm not saying they're bad, or that you'll never see chosenwings now that they can be taken without abaddon, but they're not going to have anything like the impact on the game that drakes have. Drakes invalidate entire army compositions merely by existing.
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Post by: techsoldaten
Malisteen wrote: techsoldaten wrote:Who cares about warlord traits when I can run 6 of these squads and 3 heldrakes? Anything else is icing.
You mean anything else is over your points limit? Those chosen aren't going to get within range to shoot anything without rhinos, and with rhinos just what you listed above comes to 1740 points. And that's without an HQ, without anti-air apart from drakes, which aren't exactly great at that, without an answer for AV14, and with only 30 scoring bodies, all of which die like regular CSMs despite costing nearly three times the points, and that's before taking casualties to your own plasmafire. I'm not saying plasma chosen spam won't be a thing for Black Legion, it very well may be, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's going to be as big a thing as you're making out.
Thank you, I appreciate you for pointing out my comment was not a list or practical in most games.
What I was saying is, seriously, who cares about the warlord traits or the terminator rules when you can get a ton of plasma, meltas, flamers, etc? This rule alone makes the supplement pretty important.
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Post by: Malisteen
If GW ever gives CSMs drop pods, or if FW ever gets around to updating the dreadclaw, revising the rules (seriously, the 'current' rules reference the old FW drop pod rules, which were invalidated by the 4th ed SM codex years ago), lowering the cost, and giving it to the CSM elite units at least as a dedicated transport instead of making it a separate fast attack, then you're certainly going to see some more build variety out of this supplement. Until then, though, I don't expect chosenwing is going to have too great an impact on the game. The points cost is just too hefty. I mean, CSM already has scoring units of effectively all special weapons in the form of thousand sons, and they're considered all but unusable because of their points cost. Chosen with the vets upgrade and a special weapon are similarly pricy - too pricy, I think, for a model with only basic marine defenses, to build an entire army around and still be able to function once you start taking fire.
I've been wrong before, though, so we'll see.
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Post by: gigasnail
no drop pods for my boys, effffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff you GW.
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Post by: herpguy
I can't comprehend how anybody can even attempt to argue that chosen spam is even remotely viable. The bottom line is: chosen are bad, just plain horrible. Forcing them to pay a 2 pt tax per model just puts them in the "unusable" section of 40k. To put it in perspective, a BL chosen is the same amount of points as a GK, which comes with a super-duper force weapon, a storm bolter, and ATSKNF, which is probably the most underrated rule in the game, and GK aren't even considered to be top tier anymore by many.
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Post by: Juggalo17
ausYenLoWang wrote:i can see no real reason to run this book as anything other than an ally detachment. it just makes every unit more expensive to take ( enforced VotLW ) , the terminator buff costs as much as a 2 LC and can only be 1 unit when abby is the wl in the primary detachment and the artefacts are a touch average and cant be mixed with the main codex ones.... another sad day for csm
What is the terminator buff?
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Post by: TheDevo
Please tell me the Hounds of Abaddon are a new unit and not just fluff for Chosen with the MoK...
WS +1 BS +1
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Post by: Sasori
For Artifacts not mixing, is it like the Iyanden book, where you can't mix on the same character, or is it more restrictive in that you can either have Artifacts from one book or the other?
Please tell me the Hounds of Abaddon are a new unit and not just fluff for Chosen with the MoK..
Doesn't look like it, with the following quote:
ust had a quick flip through the new artefacts are neat as are warlord traits. Can ally with c:csm and chosen are troops by default. Votlw mandatory and if taking abaddon, one unit of termies can get +1 ws and bs for a price. No new units or characters
.
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Post by: techsoldaten
I have the book. AMA
Hounds of Abaddon are pure fluff. There is a page like that for each of the Gods, I think they are trying to get people to paint things up in something besides black.
The only restrictions on artefact mixing are same character.
The terminator buff is +1WS and +1BS for 6 points per model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the warlord traits are not so bad. You can get stubborn, instant death, it will not die, or preferred enemy on 4 of the six rolls. The other items are a one time use shooting attack and rerolls on chaos boon tables.
I could see taking one of these.
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Post by: Sasori
techsoldaten wrote:I have the book. AMA
Hounds of Abaddon are pure fluff. There is a page like that for each of the Gods, I think they are trying to get people to paint things up in something besides black.
The only restrictions on artefact mixing are same character.
The terminator buff is +1WS and +1BS for 6 points per model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the warlord traits are not so bad. You can get stubborn, instant death, it will not die, or preferred enemy on 4 of the six rolls. The other items are a one time use shooting attack and rerolls on chaos boon tables.
I could see taking one of these.
Since you have it, would you mind giving us a detailed rundown of it? I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated!
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Post by: TheDevo
abadizzle over at Bolt&Chain posted some details on the Artifacts:
----------------------------------------------------------------
S: user ap3 daemon weapon melee
+1 I
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-1 T (yep... -1 T)
Re-roll ones for invuln saves
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Psyker only-
Warp charge 1-3 each charge after the first extends range by 6"
Nova
Range 6"
S 4
Ap 5
Assault 2d6
Blind
Ignore cover
If you fail your psychic test when using two+ warp charge goodbye
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One use
Range: infinite
Strength 5
Ap 4
Heavy 1
Large blast
Ignores cover
Instead of making armor pen rolls models with armor values take d3 penetrating hits
----------------------------------------------------------------
eternal warrior and adamantium will
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand of darkness as per iPad teaser
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
 Sasori wrote:For Artifacts not mixing, is it like the Iyanden book, where you can't mix on the same character, or is it more restrictive in that you can either have Artifacts from one book or the other?
Please tell me the Hounds of Abaddon are a new unit and not just fluff for Chosen with the MoK..
Doesn't look like it, with the following quote:
ust had a quick flip through the new artefacts are neat as are warlord traits. Can ally with c:csm and chosen are troops by default. Votlw mandatory and if taking abaddon, one unit of termies can get +1 ws and bs for a price. No new units or characters
.
units in a BL suppliment cant take the codex artifacts
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Post by: techsoldaten
mmmm there's a big fluff section, a section with pictures of models, and a section with rules and missions.
The fluff is pretty much in line with what already exists. It talks a lot about Abaddon going on walkabout after the retreat to the Eye of Terror, and lays out a lot of detail about Black Crusades. It's kind of tedious reading through all of this.
The models are the models, it's like bigger pictures of everything in the Codex. There's nothing new there, really, except most things are painted black. The DV models look pretty nice.
On thing about the models: at this size, you can really see how people picked out the details. Could be useful for painters looking to do exactly what they do in the books.
The rules are laid out the same way as what's in the Eldar book. A short description about the changes to the FOC, talk about the terminators and the elites, then the warlord traits and the artefacts.
Each of the artefacts is kind of cool, but yeah, they are expensive.
- The Crucible of Lies lets you trade one point of T for rerolls for invulnerable saves of 1.
- The Spineshiver blade is a Daemon weapon that gives you +1 I.
- The Last Memory of Yuranthos gives you one more psychic level plus a Nova blast power that is kind of meh. S4 AP 5 and the range expands the more psychic points you put into it.
- The Eye of Night lets you shoot a large blast weapon, but it's heavy and it's S5 AP 4.
- The Skull of Kerngar gives you eternal warrior and adamantium will.
- The hand of darkness, well, it's a power fist that strikes at initiative and does instant death.
Past that, there are city of death strategems, planetstrike strategems, altar of war missions, and echoes of war missions. Some of them are interesting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is one other section to point out, it's at the start of the "Black Crusades" section. It gives advice on how to compose your force.
So, there's 3 ways they think you should run a Black Legion army:
1) Buy a ton of CSMs. Quote: "The humble Chaos Space Marine unit is often overlooked in preference to its more specialist counterparts."
2) Buy a big unit of Chosen. Talks about how icons multiply their tabletop efficiency.
3) Buy the upgraded Terminators. Calls them undisputed terrors, heart of any attack, unleashing their fury, etc. Mentions that 2 units of 10 terminators basely costs half your points total in a 1500 point game.
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Post by: Quintinus
 TheDevo wrote:abadizzle over at Bolt&Chain posted some details on the Artifacts:
Worst artifacts ever
Hand of darkness as per iPad teaser
Some of those are horrifyingly uninspired (the Daemon weapon), terrible (the nova one, crucible of lies) or need testing to see if they're worth it (eye of night, hand of darkness). Only one that's useful is the Skull of Kerngar and I bet it's 35-40 points.
Terrible missed opportunity. If this is the route they're going with them I DON'T want them to do a World Eaters one.
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Post by: Grimskul
The fact that this was a big miss on GW's part isn't surprising given how they weren't going to support it with any new model releases (the least they could have done was do a new Abbadon model, that thing is ancient).
This alongside the fact that this was a supplement for the Black Legion of all things shows how they couldn't really have done much to represent it better to begin with. The one thing they could have really done to bring uniqueness to the book which would be being able to take the 4 chosen of abbadon with either rule-sets similar to that of Farsight's commanders if you took Abby but NOPE.
At this point it's just milking the amount of Heldrakes they can sell from people abusing the allies system. Oh joy. As if CSM players didn't have it hard enough as is with competitive variety.
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Post by: Dravenguild
Was there a point in even making this? Really they love to phone it in for chaos nowadays. I can't even make a joke how they outsourced this to a mailroom troll because I'm sure he or she would put in a more spirited effort.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Dravenguild wrote:Was there a point in even making this? Really they love to phone it in for chaos nowadays. I can't even make a joke how they outsourced this to a mailroom troll because I'm sure he or she would put in a more spirited effort.
Yeah..C: SM is going to be far away better with the chapter tactics alone..
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Post by: sennacherib
Sounds pretty disappointing to me. I wont buy it. Hopefully if they do any other chaos supplements they do something to at least buff Chaos a bit.
Thanks Gdub. Saved me some money there. 
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Post by: Dravenguild
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Dravenguild wrote:Was there a point in even making this? Really they love to phone it in for chaos nowadays. I can't even make a joke how they outsourced this to a mailroom troll because I'm sure he or she would put in a more spirited effort.
Yeah..C: SM is going to be far away better with the chapter tactics alone..
And I get the feeling that this was the reason for centurions and chapter tactics, rather than give us a deserving codex that isn't crutched up by a goatse dragon they incorporated these elements to placate chagrined chaos players to swap out codexes. Killing two birds with one stone, GW doesn't have to put effort into chaos and space marines still make money.
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Post by: aceface
4 hell turkeys in 1500 points . Just take a second to think about that .
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Post by: MetalOxide
 aceface wrote:4 hell turkeys in 1500 points . Just take a second to think about that .
As a pure Nurgle player I use ground troops only.
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Post by: Da krimson barun
 Breotan wrote:No. Unless, if by Templars you mean Bretonnians then... still NO. Man, WHFB has been getting some serious neglect this year.
You call what fantasy is getting neglect?!Try getting one page screaming how good this new Bilbo is and then tell me about neglect.
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Post by: Voodoo_Chile
Well that's immensely disappointing. Any word on what the missions are like? Do they redeem the supplement in anyway?
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Looks like peoples' fears that this book wouldn't be able to add anything because Codex: CSM already represents the Black Legion fine enough (rules-wise, at least) were correct. As brought up before, this book is even worse for that when it comes to the rules (really, since when was every member of the Black Legion a veteran of the Long War? Not only the book itself, but hte Word Bearers' novels state that the Black Legion is so huge cause they keep recruiting NEW people).
Still, at least it gave a fluff description about how cult units are organized within the Black Legion, I guess.
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Post by: Von Marlon
How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?
example, if they are allies they need 1 HQ and 2 troop, the only HQ official mentioned in supplement is abby so has to be him rendering the chosen as troops without abby a bit inert considering you have to take chosen as a troop choice if supplement is counted as an ally book making units between codex and supplement. ?!?!
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Von Marlon wrote:How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?
Um, Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines are counted as separate army lists and they can ally as Battle Brothers, with either one or the other being the primary detachment.
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Post by: Von Marlon
 lord_blackfang wrote:Von Marlon wrote:How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?
Um, Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines are counted as separate army lists and they can ally as Battle Brothers, with either one or the other being the primary detachment.
So if BL supplement is basically an ally book and there for separate from codex, what choice of units does that give you for them?
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
Von Marlon wrote:How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?
example, if they are allies they need 1 HQ and 2 troop, the only HQ official mentioned in supplement is abby so has to be him rendering the chosen as troops without abby a bit inert considering you have to take chosen as a troop choice if supplement is counted as an ally book making units between codex and supplement. ?!?!
BL lists come from CSM codex, all the model lists are exactly the same, except with the changes and restrictions it makes....
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Post by: Von Marlon
ausYenLoWang wrote:Von Marlon wrote:How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?
example, if they are allies they need 1 HQ and 2 troop, the only HQ official mentioned in supplement is abby so has to be him rendering the chosen as troops without abby a bit inert considering you have to take chosen as a troop choice if supplement is counted as an ally book making units between codex and supplement. ?!?!
BL lists come from CSM codex, all the model lists are exactly the same, except with the changes and restrictions it makes....
Oh right phew, that was seriously melting my brain for a moment lol. Allying your own codex is a still bit of a weird one though. I see how the 4 hell drakes comes into it now though lol. So i can still take a plague marine unit as black legion ally as long as I say they are black legion?
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Post by: Malisteen
It doesn't fix the problems of the CSM book, but I wasn't expecting or even hoping for that - fixes to that book (nerf heldrake, add drop pods, maybe add'l assault transport) should be made to the book itself, and shouldn't require an extra $40 purchase to use.
All in all, it doesn't look any stronger than the main book at all, which is fine, I wasn't looking forward to everyone running a bunch of counts as, anyway. That said, I think I'll still run it and have fun with it as a Black Legion player. I mean, daemon sword for my dark vengeance lord? Eternal warrior for my daemon prince? Orbital Bombardment for my Warpsmith? Sure, thelatter's not great against infantry or monstrous creatures, but it does d3 automatic penetrating hits against anything with an Armor Value that it catches.
And while chosen are far from points efficient, once they're freed from the requirement to take Abaddon, I think there will be a few viable builds that float to the surface. They're too pricey and vulnerable to use as your only scoring units, I think, but I could certainly see fielding a couple squads of five with lascannon, or squads of six with three plasmagun in a rhino.
So yeah, I'd say I'm content with this. Not wowed or anything, but content.
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Post by: UltraPrime
So, you could create a primary detachment from C:CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?
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Post by: Von Marlon
UltraPrime wrote:So, you could create a primary detachment from C: CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?
2 abaddon's maybe? lol that is the thing that is confusing me. If counted as allies it imposes ally restrictions on them. codex say one abbadon per army but an ally is a separate army so technically unless it explicitly overrules it in supplement, you can take 2 abbys.
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Post by: UltraPrime
Von Marlon wrote:UltraPrime wrote:So, you could create a primary detachment from C: CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?
2 abaddon's maybe? lol that is the thing that is confusing me. If counted as allies it imposes ally restrictions on them. codex say one abbadon per army but an ally is a separate army so technically unless it explicitly overrules it in supplement, you can take 2 abbys.
No, I didn't mean 2 Abbys! Just the thought of both the main and detachment being BL - one big uber force!
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Post by: SickSix
TiamatRoar wrote:Looks like peoples' fears that this book wouldn't be able to add anything because Codex: CSM already represents the Black Legion fine enough (rules-wise, at least) were correct. As brought up before, this book is even worse for that when it comes to the rules (really, since when was every member of the Black Legion a veteran of the Long War? Not only the book itself, but hte Word Bearers' novels state that the Black Legion is so huge cause they keep recruiting NEW people).
Still, at least it gave a fluff description about how cult units are organized within the Black Legion, I guess.
Yup.
Who would have guessed a BL supplement would be underwhelming??
A whole lot of us, that's who.
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Post by: Von Marlon
UltraPrime wrote:Von Marlon wrote:UltraPrime wrote:So, you could create a primary detachment from C: CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?
2 abaddon's maybe? lol that is the thing that is confusing me. If counted as allies it imposes ally restrictions on them. codex say one abbadon per army but an ally is a separate army so technically unless it explicitly overrules it in supplement, you can take 2 abbys.
No, I didn't mean 2 Abbys! Just the thought of both the main and detachment being BL - one big uber force!
I think its one or other. BL supplement makes them ally or primary but only they have access to additional rules but you are not forced to take abaddon in supplement so can't see any reason he can't be HQ for the other.. but then does he still confer his new rules onto terminators if he is not part of the supplement?? confused!
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
 SickSix wrote:TiamatRoar wrote:Looks like peoples' fears that this book wouldn't be able to add anything because Codex: CSM already represents the Black Legion fine enough (rules-wise, at least) were correct. As brought up before, this book is even worse for that when it comes to the rules (really, since when was every member of the Black Legion a veteran of the Long War? Not only the book itself, but hte Word Bearers' novels state that the Black Legion is so huge cause they keep recruiting NEW people).
Still, at least it gave a fluff description about how cult units are organized within the Black Legion, I guess.
Yup.
Who would have guessed a BL supplement would be underwhelming??
A whole lot of us, that's who.
Well the Artifacts are interesting since they are all things that the black legion had.
Pity some of them are weak despite their power in the fluff.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well the Artifacts are interesting since they are all things that the black legion had.
Pity some of them are weak despite their power in the fluff.
so these have been fully tested in play? we know these things suck?
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Post by: Zappit
I guess we're really starting to understand why these Black Crusades haven't exactly been home runs for Abby, huh?
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Post by: Malisteen
A lot of it will come down to points values. Many things are great or terrible depending on cost. Black Legion doesn't have a lot of slack to spare in that department, between the vets upgrade and the chosen squads people are considering.
The terminator retinue for Abby is pretty terrible for the cost. skill bumps and hatred of marines are nice, but they don't rate the cost of nearly 10 points extra per model more than regular chaos terminators without any durability increase, especially considering that you probably want to pay even more for combi weapons to make use of that ballistic skill. These guys are going to end up running close to 50 points a model when all is said and done. And you're paying for a 250ish point special character already.
Chosen have some interesting options, but they're far too costly for how easily they die, and an army that relies exclusively on them for scoring is going to have trouble staying on the board.
The warlord traits and artifacts are nice, but not really more impressive than the main book options for the most part, while costing more.
In general, the Black Legion seems to have some cool and fun toys, but suffer, potentially badly, in terms of that all important points efficiency to access them. Probably won't have a meaningful impact on the competitive scene, but I'll have fun playing them.
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Post by: Solosam47
The one thing I wanted from this supplemen was chaos termies as troops, an abbadon deathwing list would be fun I think. From the sounds of it tho they have the new supplement just written hastily and without answer to the new c:sm.
It's another black crusade down the drain....
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Post by: Exergy
techsoldaten wrote:Yeah, you guys are reading this all wrong.
Chaos just got a 175 point CSM unit with 5 plasma that can score.
Who cares about warlord traits when I can run 6 of these squads and 3 heldrakes? Anything else is icing.
Must take VotLW, 195 points
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Post by: bogalubov
I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
bogalubov wrote:I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!
I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.
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Post by: bogalubov
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:bogalubov wrote:I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!
I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.
Despite the nerf, the oblits still remain a strong pillar of the CSM codex. That might be more reflective of the general quality of the CSM codex, but they are still a unit that does a lot of heavy lifting in my lists.
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Post by: Exergy
bogalubov wrote: Godless-Mimicry wrote:bogalubov wrote:I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!
I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.
Despite the nerf, the oblits still remain a strong pillar of the CSM codex. That might be more reflective of the general quality of the CSM codex, but they are still a unit that does a lot of heavy lifting in my lists.
sure they are perfectly useable, but I think think having 3 more is going to be gamechaning at all.
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Post by: bogalubov
A 4th heldrake is not going to change anything either.
3 more oblits can get you to a point where you're even less worried about other heldrakes.
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Post by: dlight
4 Heldrakes @ 2,000 Pts or lower will actually make your list worse. The best performing CSM lists run 2 Heldrakes.
If you run into a 2+ heavy army or a list with a lot of anti-air you are done.
Same thing with 12 Oblits. It won't work well @ 2,000 Pts because of the cost.
I would still like a complete run down on the new Terminator rules. Can someone confirm 100% if there is a way to make them score?
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
bogalubov wrote: Godless-Mimicry wrote:bogalubov wrote:I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!
I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.
Despite the nerf, the oblits still remain a strong pillar of the CSM codex. That might be more reflective of the general quality of the CSM codex, but they are still a unit that does a lot of heavy lifting in my lists.
That doesn't make them qualify as cheesy though, even if spammed. Actually I think they are better in moderation than spammed given that high armour save isn't what it used to be.
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Post by: Malisteen
Are there any restrictions on taking special characters apart from Abaddon from the main book? I didn't think that would be allowed, but I haven't heard anything about it.
If the other characters are still allowed, than infiltrating those scoring plasma chosen via Huron or Ahriman may be an interesting option.
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Post by: kelewan
That would be quite interesting
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Post by: Rayvon
After checking it out on a friends Ipad, i can safely say that I am looking forward to it getting a hardback release.
I like the new toys and different rules that I can chose from, I reckon some of the stuff in it would be quite fun to try.
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Post by: whembly
Malisteen wrote:Are there any restrictions on taking special characters apart from Abaddon from the main book? I didn't think that would be allowed, but I haven't heard anything about it.
If the other characters are still allowed, than infiltrating those scoring plasma chosen via Huron or Ahriman may be an interesting option.
This guys...
Let's absorb this some more before rendering this fugly.
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Post by: Melissia
I guess it makes sense. Kind of disappointing though.
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Post by: Sheokronath
I'm disappointed with what I've seen so far, but I'll probably use it for the Daemon sword, I feel I'll get more use out of it than the murder sword.
I'm interested in seeing some battle reports using it though.
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Post by: whembly
So...wait!
You can have 4 heavy units? Or 4 units of Oblits?
o.O
Now have 4 two-man Oblits is very intriguing...
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Post by: Malisteen
With allies, anybody can have four heavy support. The question is whether the fourth pair of obliterators is really better than what you could have gotten out of a Heavy Support slot taken from the daemon, guard, ork, necron, tau, farsignt, or dark eldar books.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, primary detachment Black Legion led by warlord huron, allied detachment regular CSMs led by abaddon, with a unit of cheap, non-vet combiplas terminators and a max blob of cultists?
If huron rolls a '1' on Master of deception, infiltrate the terminators, and abby walks with the cultists, if huron rolls a '2' then abby goes with the terminators, and if huron rolls a '3' then a squad of combi plas chosen from the primary detachment get to go along for the ride?
2/3 of the time, you get to shove abaddon and a bunch of plasma fire right in the enemy's face. Not pretty. Maybe not good, either, but still.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
Malisteen wrote:With allies, anybody can have four heavy support. The question is whether the fourth pair of obliterators is really better than what you could have gotten out of a Heavy Support slot taken from the daemon, guard, ork, necron, tau, farsignt, or dark eldar books.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, primary detachment Black Legion led by warlord huron, allied detachment regular CSMs led by abaddon, with a unit of cheap, non-vet combiplas terminators and a max blob of cultists?
If huron rolls a '1' on Master of deception, infiltrate the terminators, and abby walks with the cultists, if huron rolls a '2' then abby goes with the terminators, and if huron rolls a '3' then a squad of combi plas chosen from the primary detachment get to go along for the ride?
2/3 of the time, you get to shove abaddon and a bunch of plasma fire right in the enemy's face. Not pretty. Maybe not good, either, but still.
if your not taking the vets upgrade on your termies, then why not make the BL the allies and save a bunch of points from needing to make everyone vets?
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Post by: Malisteen
However it goes. Depends on what you want with the rest of the list. Only important parts are that Huron is main dex (whether CSM or BL), Abby is allied (again CSM or BL), and the terminators are from the CSM book (whether Allies or main dex), and plasma chosen, if any, are BL (again allied or main).
Main dex BL if you want more troop chosen or a third HQ with one of the BL artifacts, or basic CSMs if you don't.
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Post by: sennacherib
Malisteen wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, primary detachment Black Legion led by warlord huron, allied detachment regular CSMs led by abaddon, with a unit of cheap, non-vet combiplas terminators and a max blob of cultists?
If huron rolls a '1' on Master of deception, infiltrate the terminators, and abby walks with the cultists, if huron rolls a '2' then abby goes with the terminators, and if huron rolls a '3' then a squad of combi plas chosen from the primary detachment get to go along for the ride?
2/3 of the time, you get to shove abaddon and a bunch of plasma fire right in the enemy's face. Not pretty. Maybe not good, either, but still.
Couldn't you already do this?
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Post by: kb305
 Zweischneid wrote: insaniak wrote:
Because in the same way that Codex: Space Marines represents standard Codex Chapters, the Chaos Space Marines codex represents typical Chaos Space Marine forces. The best use for a supplement therefore is to flesh out non-typical forces.
The Chaos Space Marines Codex represents all Chaos Space Marines forces, just as the Codex: Space Marines represents a variety of non-Codex Chapters too.
While you may prefer that supplements flesh out some more exotic armies, that isn't what they do. The Codex Supplements flesh out iconic "events", "campaigns", etc.. in the 40K history (such as the fall of Iyanden), and no Chaos Space Marine faction has a more iconic/better-known "event" like that than the Black Legion's Black Crusades (with the Red Corsairs Badab War arguably being a close second).
The assumption that it is "deviation from norm-x" that justifies or not justifies a Codex Supplement (or a Codex even) is yours alone.
Ok, so let me paraphrase. supplements suck and arnt worth buying.
That's my assumption too actually, and tons of people's after browsing this thread. I think youre one of the few that likes the idea of pointless fluff books.
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Post by: Malisteen
sennacherib wrote:
Couldn't you already do this?
Nope. If you include Abby in the primary detachment, then he has to be the warlord. Sure, you could field Huron along with him, but since Huron wouldn't be the warlord he wouldn't get his warlord trait, so no infiltrating.
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Post by: Spartan089
Disappointed with CSM as a whole, the 6th edition codex was very lacking and had almost no representation for the traitor legions. I was hoping the supplement would fix this but alas they focus on the one legion that did not need support and they still do a bad job on it, yet the new Space Marine codex gets individual rules for all the first founding chapters and then some. I feel pretty betrayed by GW as a csm player at this point.
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Post by: Malisteen
I guess I'm just used to it? I don't know. I've got nothing but complaints about the handling of CSMs this edition, yet I'm still super keen on playing them. Over in fantasy, I think the Vamp Counts book is literally the best faction book GW has produced since the 5th edition Undead, and yet I have no motivation to play or paint.
Can't say what it is. But anyway, my expectations for this supplement were low, at least when it comes to the rules, so I'm not disappointed now. Just excited to be painting models and getting some custom rules for my very favorite Chaos subfaction. Even 3.5 didn't give me that, so ... yeah. Yay, me.
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Post by: Aipoch
I wouldn't say everything is lost just yet. I'd give it alittle time to see if things like termies shooting on 2+ to hit, having eternal warrior dp's back in, and the other subtle tweaks play out into anything clever by those not swayed by the math-hammer world.
And 3.5 is still the most comprehensive book CSM have been graced with.
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Post by: Leth
Eternal warrior DP, now that is a nice change, I had not even thought of that.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
With tha latest rumors on Faeit nlog, there is the 4 Chaos books supplement in the going,( like the guy said in the other thread).
The Staff guys at Games Day also said that the supplements will go further in complexity and modifications to existing units as they comes out.
Iyanden Farsight and BL being the first 3, gotta wait to see if the following would be worth it.
personnaly giving VotLW to everyone isn't really an issue for me, seeing that i allready do it, just love to reroll all those attacks Vs marines.
But they should have given it to Chosen and Termies for free
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Post by: Malisteen
It's rules less than inspired, and there were certainly some missed opportunities, but I'm still pretty happy & excited.
As for the cult books - sounds a lot like wishlisting to me, but could be cool if true. Especially if they provide an excuse for GW to release new models. Such cult books really would be screaming out for new plastic cult units and greater daemons.
Then again, the black legion book was screaming out for new Abaddon and Chosen models, and we don't seem to be getting those (at least not yet, we'll see about in November when the hardcover is supposed to be released).
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
I was thinking the same thing the other day, that they should have released a plastic Chosen boxset!?! I love the Chosen from Dark Vengeance and wish that they would release more models of the same caliber that I would use as either Chosen of just plain old Chaos Space Marines. I alsways thought that Chaos space marines should look like the chosen is Dark Vengeance.
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Post by: insaniak
kb305 wrote:Ok, so let me paraphrase. supplements suck and arnt worth buying.
That's my assumption too actually, and tons of people's after browsing this thread. I think youre one of the few that likes the idea of pointless fluff books.
Actually, pointless fluff books are fine, and a great idea. Many players enjoy the background of the game, and would buy such things for the same reason they bought, say, the book of Jes Goodwin's random sketches.
What I have an issue with is a pointless fluff book that include two pages of extra rules for a faction that doesn't need them, as this forces people who otherwise wouldn't want to buy a pointless fluff book to pick it up if they want to stay current with the full rules of this game. Put the rules in the codex. Or if you must release supplements, include enough rules in them to make them a worthwhile purchase for those who aren't as interested in the background. As a 'Legions' supplement, this book might have been worth considering. As is? Not so much.
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Post by: buckero0
insaniak wrote:
Actually, pointless fluff books are fine, and a great idea. Many players enjoy the background of the game, and would buy such things for the same reason they bought, say, the book of Jes Goodwin's random sketches.
What I have an issue with is a pointless fluff book that include two pages of extra rules for a faction that doesn't need them, as this forces people who otherwise wouldn't want to buy a pointless fluff book to pick it up if they want to stay current with the full rules of this game. Put the rules in the codex. Or if you must release supplements, include enough rules in them to make them a worthwhile purchase for those who aren't as interested in the background. As a 'Legions' supplement, this book might have been worth considering. As is? Not so much.
My sentiments exactly. I have never, and will never read a paragraph of "fluff" but am interested in the rules. Sell me a $7.99 download ro printout with the rules and il buy the ones I'm interested in. Sell the fluff books thru black library.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Yea, a Black Legion fluff book that was purely fluff could have been great. When it comes to rules, however, Codex: CSM pretty much covered everything you could want with a Black Legion army, really (and again, better than the supplement did, given that the supplement forces rules that actually go against the fluff, including the fluff in the supplement itself).
It'd be nice if we had pure fluff books for factions like the Orks got long ago. GW just doesn't seem to do that anymore :(
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Post by: gigasnail
the only thing i can see from this mess is that i can run two drakes and two bikes/bikes+spawn/whatever.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Well, the wiki's updated with the fluff from the book. I hope there's more than that, cause frankly a Black Legion book only adding a little fluf fabout Abaddon's four, ONE Black Crusade, and some artefacts feels rather underwhelming.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Honestly, I'm not sure even why they did this in the first place. Black Legion has been the "default" Chaos army for at least two versions now, as they seem to have discouraged a mono-God list. I would have liked to see Renegade chapters more than this.
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Post by: Malisteen
Because despite being the default they've been lacking fluff and character? Compare to the ultramarine presence in the current SM book? Because GW is specifically putting the subfactions that require the least amount of rules alterations first, to minimize the impact of the supplement line while they guage player reactions to them?
Seriously, the point has been raised and answered about two dozen times. At this point its no more significant or relevant than complaining whenever a new army book is released because 'wood elves needed it more'.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure even why they did this in the first place. Black Legion has been the "default" Chaos army for at least two versions now, as they seem to have discouraged a mono-God list. I would have liked to see Renegade chapters more than this.
Actually the default has been Codex: Renegades for these two versions, while you could make a passable Black Legion army in 4th, you couldn't in sixth due to the fact you now require a chaos lord to unlock so you can't use the full cults.
And even then they went with elites rather then that for 6th.. Who wrote this book?
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Post by: insaniak
Malisteen wrote: Because GW is specifically putting the subfactions that require the least amount of rules alterations first, to minimize the impact of the supplement line while they guage player reactions to them?
I'm not buying this idea.
You don't guage customer reactions to a new idea by deliberately downplaying that idea and releasing the crap stuff first, unless you're deliberately intending the idea to fail. You lead with good stuff to get people interested, and slot the more boring releases in amongst the good ones.
So either someone at the studio hates the supplement idea and is deliberately pushing the boring stuff out first in an attempt to have the whole thing canned due to poor sales, or they think that the supplements they have released so far are good enough to hook people... in which case there is no reason to expect them to get any better down the track. Either they'll sell anyway despite being over-priced rubbish (in which case there is no reason to improve them), or they won't and the beancounters will can them due to the poor sales.
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Post by: 2x210
So now I can have a Nurgle CSM lord with 5 wounds eternal warrior and using a sword that gives him the same initiative as a Slaneesh lord? Nice.
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Post by: techsoldaten
Did some playtesting over the weekend with the new BL list in a couple games vs MEQ. Focused on what I could do with the FOC moreso than the artefacts.
Several units stood out as being particularly effective in terms of what they did and the combos they set up. The core of my army looked like this:
1) MoN Chosen - took a 10 man squad, gave them 5 flamers and a Rhino. The flamers forced my opponent to stay away and try to shoot from distance. They eventually assaulted with 30 attacks on the charge.
2) NMs - took a 6 man squad of NMs with sonic weapons and a blastmaster. they stayed behind the flamers. All their shooting ignored cover, but they took cover from the MoN Chosen.
3) Plasma Chosen - took a 6 man squad, gave the Champion a plasma pistol and the others all had plasma guns.
In terms of tactics, I had the Flamer Chosen in a Rhino and popped smoke at the end of the first turn. The other guys ran up behind it. At the start of the second round, the Flamer Chosen set up as close as possible to the enemy and just took shots while the other units closed in.
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
insaniak wrote: Malisteen wrote: Because GW is specifically putting the subfactions that require the least amount of rules alterations first, to minimize the impact of the supplement line while they guage player reactions to them?
I'm not buying this idea.
You don't guage customer reactions to a new idea by deliberately downplaying that idea and releasing the crap stuff first, unless you're deliberately intending the idea to fail. You lead with good stuff to get people interested, and slot the more boring releases in amongst the good ones.
So either someone at the studio hates the supplement idea and is deliberately pushing the boring stuff out first in an attempt to have the whole thing canned due to poor sales, or they think that the supplements they have released so far are good enough to hook people... in which case there is no reason to expect them to get any better down the track. Either they'll sell anyway despite being over-priced rubbish (in which case there is no reason to improve them), or they won't and the beancounters will can them due to the poor sales.
Or they are introducing the more radical supplements slowly, so they have more feedback and can adjust the later books as needed to avoid the "flier problem." 5th edition fliers were directly ported into 6th, and the Helldrake was basically designed and written before 6th hit and the meta adjusted to fliers and found some to be way too strong. GW overreacted, and we got the dishwater DA fliers, before finally finding about the right balance with the Tau and Eldar planes- useful and dangerous, but not game-breakers.
Additionally, some of the purpose of supplements is to dripfeed attention to codices that are alread out to keep sales for older books and models up.
38926
Post by: Exergy
insaniak wrote: Malisteen wrote: Because GW is specifically putting the subfactions that require the least amount of rules alterations first, to minimize the impact of the supplement line while they guage player reactions to them?
I'm not buying this idea.
You don't guage customer reactions to a new idea by deliberately downplaying that idea and releasing the crap stuff first, unless you're deliberately intending the idea to fail. You lead with good stuff to get people interested, and slot the more boring releases in amongst the good ones.
So either someone at the studio hates the supplement idea and is deliberately pushing the boring stuff out first in an attempt to have the whole thing canned due to poor sales, or they think that the supplements they have released so far are good enough to hook people... in which case there is no reason to expect them to get any better down the track. Either they'll sell anyway despite being over-priced rubbish (in which case there is no reason to improve them), or they won't and the beancounters will can them due to the poor sales.
Exactly. I see some execs using this to say "the market for additional fluff and rules for CSM is poor, so we will just make more ultramarines"
49068
Post by: Malisteen
The flier issue is exactly why they would want to start with the supplements of minimal impact to feel things out.
And there's also the issue that, with the accelerated codex & army book release pace, there isn't really time in their schedule to release new models with the supplements without delaying the normal releases, which they don't want to do. So supplements that actually demand new models, not just new rules, even if its something as minimal as a finecast conversion kit for cult terminators, have to wait until there's a gap in the codex release schedule, which won't come until all the 6e codeces are out.
And again, Codex: CSM IS NOT Codex: Black Legion already. The warpsmith is explicitly there for Iron Warriors. The Apostle is explicitly there for Word Bearers. The Warp Talons are there for night lords, and cultists for Alpha Legion. Red Corsairs have their own Special Character, which is all the Black Legion got. Cult Legions also each have their own special character, as well as themed troop units restricted to armies led by characters of their alignment, instead of just available to anyone regardless of commander like in the last book.
Black Legion only gets slightly more focus than any of the other legions in the fluff, mostly because of Abby's character write up, and gets significantly less than the renegade warbands spawned by that one failed incursion into the Eye.
People keep comparing the Black Legion to the Ultramarines of the current space Marine book, but while the Black might be intended to fill the same 'poster boy' role, they are not the central focus of their book the way the Ultramarines are in theirs (at least in the current book, the new book supposedly focuses less on them, from what I hear). Ultramarines have not one, but what? Three special characters? Four? And a unique unit? And the majority of the fluff in the book is either about them or from their perspective?
The SM book is focused on the Ultramarines, to the degree that you could reasonably call it codex: ultramarines. The same is just not the case for Black Legion and chaos. The picture on the cover isn't even a black legionnaire.
38926
Post by: Exergy
techsoldaten wrote:Did some playtesting over the weekend with the new BL list in a couple games vs MEQ. Focused on what I could do with the FOC moreso than the artefacts.
Several units stood out as being particularly effective in terms of what they did and the combos they set up. The core of my army looked like this:
1) MoN Chosen - took a 10 man squad, gave them 5 flamers and a Rhino. The flamers forced my opponent to stay away and try to shoot from distance. They eventually assaulted with 30 attacks on the charge.
2) NMs - took a 6 man squad of NMs with sonic weapons and a blastmaster. they stayed behind the flamers. All their shooting ignored cover, but they took cover from the MoN Chosen.
3) Plasma Chosen - took a 6 man squad, gave the Champion a plasma pistol and the others all had plasma guns.
In terms of tactics, I had the Flamer Chosen in a Rhino and popped smoke at the end of the first turn. The other guys ran up behind it. At the start of the second round, the Flamer Chosen set up as close as possible to the enemy and just took shots while the other units closed in.
I am a big pro flamer chosen guy. But what about BL makes them better. So they can be taken as troops without abby, but they have to have VotLW making them 10% more expensive.... Automatically Appended Next Post: Malisteen wrote:
And again, Codex: CSM IS NOT Codex: Black Legion already. The warpsmith is explicitly there for Iron Warriors. The Apostle is explicitly there for Word Bearers. The Warp Talons are there for night lords, and cultists for Alpha Legion. Red Corsairs have their own Special Character, which is all the Black Legion got. Cult Legions also each have their own special character, as well as themed troop units restricted to armies led by characters of their alignment, instead of just available to anyone regardless of commander like in the last book.
Not arguing your point, the dino bots are Iron Warriors, Possessed have always been word bearers, oblits and mutes are also iron warriors, master of deception really fits alpha legion.
I just dont know if warp talons are Night Lords. I always bought into the fluff that night lords didnt worship chaos and werent daemonically possessed.
73675
Post by: TiamatRoar
Malisteen wrote:
And again, Codex: CSM IS NOT Codex: Black Legion already. The warpsmith is explicitly there for Iron Warriors. The Apostle is explicitly there for Word Bearers. The Warp Talons are there for night lords, and cultists for Alpha Legion. Red Corsairs have their own Special Character, which is all the Black Legion got. Cult Legions also each have their own special character, as well as themed troop units restricted to armies led by characters of their alignment, instead of just available to anyone regardless of commander like in the last book.
The Black Legion has Warpsmiths. It's WARsmiths that are exclusive to Iron Warriors, not WarPsmith.
The Black Legion has Dark Apostles. They've been retconned to no longer be Word Bearers exclusive.
The Blacksmith has Warp Talons. They aren't exclusive to the Night Legion.
The Black Legion has cultists. It's not emphasized very much but they do.
As stated in several other sources before the supplement and within the supplement itself, the Black Legion has EVERYONE, with no particular tendency towards anything. Just like what Codex: Chaos Space Marines allows you to build. Supplements are supposed to be for the specialized factions, such as how Lyanden specializes in dead ghost things and how Farsight has various limitations after being split off from the Tau Empire, and a special hatred for Orks.
Black Legion has no specialties. Instead, it has everything, which is what Codex: CSM was. Even the supplement states this!
For crying out loud, the own supplement ends up contradicting itself by forcing a specialty on the Black Legion! Again, the whole idea of everyone being a veteran of the long war goes against the established fluff and the fluff within their own supplement! If they were going to ADD a new specialty that they never had before, they should have done it like the Ultramarines with the Tyrannic War Veterans coming about because of a new development in the story, not force a specialty on them that actually goes against fluff within the supplement itself.
When the original Codex does something better than what the supplement does for representing the faction, then yes, peoples' assertions that they didn't need a supplement because the original codex was more than enough for them has plenty of validity.
The only thing the Black Legion was sorely lacking was fluff (I consider special characters to be fluff-based), unlike the Ultramarines who get their own novels and movies and tons of fluff cases throughout Imperium history as well as a bajillion special characters. Sadly, this book doesn't even seem to have delivered very well on that, though it was better than nothing with what it gave. ...it doesn't have any new special characters either.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
I'm just happy I can use all 20 of my chaos spawn now since this is yet another book which allows allies with itself (why bother having allies, but whatever).. Now I can ditch the demon models I don't own and can use full CSM!
38926
Post by: Exergy
 Kirasu wrote:I'm just happy I can use all 20 of my chaos spawn now since this is yet another book which allows allies with itself (why bother having allies, but whatever).. Now I can ditch the demon models I don't own and can use full CSM!
now you need to adjust to playing 2000 point games where you will need 35 chaos spawn.
31449
Post by: danp164
TiamatRoar wrote: Malisteen wrote:
And again, Codex: CSM IS NOT Codex: Black Legion already. The warpsmith is explicitly there for Iron Warriors. The Apostle is explicitly there for Word Bearers. The Warp Talons are there for night lords, and cultists for Alpha Legion. Red Corsairs have their own Special Character, which is all the Black Legion got. Cult Legions also each have their own special character, as well as themed troop units restricted to armies led by characters of their alignment, instead of just available to anyone regardless of commander like in the last book.
The Black Legion has Warpsmiths. It's WARsmiths that are exclusive to Iron Warriors, not WarPsmith.
The Black Legion has Dark Apostles. They've been retconned to no longer be Word Bearers exclusive.
The Blacksmith has Warp Talons. They aren't exclusive to the Night Legion.
The Black Legion has cultists. It's not emphasized very much but they do.
As stated in several other sources before the supplement and within the supplement itself, the Black Legion has EVERYONE, with no particular tendency towards anything. Just like what Codex: Chaos Space Marines allows you to build. Supplements are supposed to be for the specialized factions, such as how Lyanden specializes in dead ghost things and how Farsight has various limitations after being split off from the Tau Empire, and a special hatred for Orks.
Black Legion has no specialties. Instead, it has everything, which is what Codex: CSM was. Even the supplement states this!
For crying out loud, the own supplement ends up contradicting itself by forcing a specialty on the Black Legion! Again, the whole idea of everyone being a veteran of the long war goes against the established fluff and the fluff within their own supplement! If they were going to ADD a new specialty that they never had before, they should have done it like the Ultramarines with the Tyrannic War Veterans coming about because of a new development in the story, not force a specialty on them that actually goes against fluff within the supplement itself.
When the original Codex does something better than what the supplement does for representing the faction, then yes, peoples' assertions that they didn't need a supplement because the original codex was more than enough for them has plenty of validity.
The only thing the Black Legion was sorely lacking was fluff (I consider special characters to be fluff-based), unlike the Ultramarines who get their own novels and movies and tons of fluff cases throughout Imperium history as well as a bajillion special characters. Sadly, this book doesn't even seem to have delivered very well on that, though it was better than nothing with what it gave. ...it doesn't have any new special characters either.
Not trying to butt in or anything but wasn't the point of this supplement more that it was Abbadon's more elites forces then the usual random mishmash. I understand people dont like the VOTLW Tax instead of the Abbadon tax, especially if you end up taking Abbadon anyway but doesn't VOTLW actually make sense on chosen I mean Chosen are supposed to be THE Veterans of the Long War, isn;t it more of a problem that in the core book they DON'T require it or should get it automatically. I don't think the book adds specializations to the black legions, just reflect a more elite and pure Black Legion force.
38926
Post by: Exergy
danp164 wrote:
Not trying to butt in or anything but wasn't the point of this supplement more that it was Abbadon's more elites forces then the usual random mishmash. I understand people dont like the VOTLW Tax instead of the Abbadon tax, especially if you end up taking Abbadon anyway but doesn't VOTLW actually make sense on chosen I mean Chosen are supposed to be THE Veterans of the Long War, isn;t it more of a problem that in the core book they DON'T require it or should get it automatically. I don't think the book adds specializations to the black legions, just reflect a more elite and pure Black Legion force.
People hate the VotLW tax because VotLW is overpriced. It averages 10% on most models. It gives you +1 Ld half the time. Chosen should come with it stock for 18 points. Regular CSM should probably come with it stock for 13 points, but have options to swap it for other things.
65757
Post by: PredaKhaine
Another reason is VoTLW compares really badly to ATSKNF - I think it works out that its more expensive too?
39502
Post by: Slayer le boucher
If VotLW was to replace ATSKNF, then it should have being in the base cost of the models and directly incorporated into the models rules.
But instead of +1 LD, make a reroll for LD tests.
38926
Post by: Exergy
 Slayer le boucher wrote:If VotLW was to replace ATSKNF, then it should have being in the base cost of the models and directly incorporated into the models rules.
But instead of +1 LD, make a reroll for LD tests.
even reroll Ld test isnt as good as ATSKNF (which basically = I pass or ignore every significant morale test failure)
39502
Post by: Slayer le boucher
i know, but we can't have ATSKNF or we might have something similar but chaosy-ish?..
the problem is i have no idea what we could have in place of ATSKNF, that would make all peoples happy...
47145
Post by: Tsilber
Really wouldnt call this a review... sounded like the ramblings of a drunk muppet...
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
Slayer le boucher wrote:i know, but we can't have ATSKNF or we might have something similar but chaosy-ish?..
the problem is i have no idea what we could have in place of ATSKNF, that would make all peoples happy...
They could have called it No Mercy, No Retreat or something grimdark like that and kept it exactly the same.
But Chaos can't have that. Even the Land Raider is sub-par compared to Imperial ones with PotMS....
53740
Post by: ZebioLizard2
DarkStarSabre wrote: Slayer le boucher wrote:i know, but we can't have ATSKNF or we might have something similar but chaosy-ish?..
the problem is i have no idea what we could have in place of ATSKNF, that would make all peoples happy...
They could have called it No Mercy, No Retreat or something grimdark like that and kept it exactly the same.
But Chaos can't have that. Even the Land Raider is sub-par compared to Imperial ones with PotMS....
Or they could just change ATSKNF, and make it less OP.
Only immune to sweeping advance if they contain more models or they take a sweeping advance, but only lose X models (feel free to suggest how many) to retreat. They don't have to take a LD test to regroup, but can only fire within 6" or something, heavy weapons can only be snapfired.
Fear rules changed to be stronger, and with marines able to resist weaker levels of it, a space marine will feel fear against a gigantic bloodthirster whose daemonic warp washes over them like the tide of blood. Or just make it so that MEQ get +1 against fear. NOT IMMUNE TO IT.
40878
Post by: Meade
Malisteen wrote:
And again, Codex: CSM IS NOT Codex: Black Legion already. The warpsmith is explicitly there for Iron Warriors. The Apostle is explicitly there for Word Bearers. The Warp Talons are there for night lords, and cultists for Alpha Legion. Red Corsairs have their own Special Character, which is all the Black Legion got. Cult Legions also each have their own special character, as well as themed troop units restricted to armies led by characters of their alignment, instead of just available to anyone regardless of commander like in the last book.
.
Well, it's very easy to argue that the new CSM codex doesn't quite represent any chaos faction particularly well, except perhaps for Iron Warriors and that's a stretch. It's more like Codex: Weird Dinobots.
Or let me put it this way, when I started chaos it was using the 4th Ed. codex and I made a Black Legion force because I wanted one of everything in my army. If you are doing World Eaters, you can't very well have Noise Marines in your army, can you? That is the purpose of Black Legion for chaos. When the new book came out, my army was still generic enough that I didn't need to buy anything to field a force, I had basic CSM's, Rhinos, Abaddon, A daemon prince, Tanks, Etc. The basic stuff.
I play against my brother a lot who plays new Tau. If I fielded that army I will tell you what is going to happen. After his first shooting phase I will have no transports alive, I will be lucky to have half my army standing. Any unit that is lucky to get into assault will be gunned down by overwatch shots coming from multiple units at normal ballistic skill or rerolling misses.
So I can use this new supplement now, and that whole army will pretty much just get more expensive and useless due to being forced to take the VOTLW upgrade, Thanks GW.
8733
Post by: konst80hummel
Played a friendly game against chaos today with a armoured battlegroup list.
If that artifact that fires a large blast works by inflincting d3 autopenetrating hits to armored targets, then there is something wrong here. I have no trouble losing tanks but a shot that ignores both cover AND your armour value on a BS5 unit sounds like a tenyear's old dream come true. No more walls AV14 to hide the Chimeras behind. 
I know i might sound a bit harsh but that thing is the final nail on the coffin of many mechanised armies. 
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Isn't the rumour that it's a single use item ?
If so it may be great for taking out a single unit (or more if the target doesn't space out their units smartly),
but a list with lots of armour should still have plenty of stuff to fight on afterwards. It seems more geared to taking on lists with a single high value target
8733
Post by: konst80hummel
It may be anectodal but in one shot it took out a kitted out Exterminator and a naked Demolisher that were 2 " from each other going around a ruin. 355 ponts of stuff that should have taken several LCs or wait for another turn for MGs to get close.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
Yeah, that thing is one use only and costs 75.
4183
Post by: Davor
techsoldaten wrote:Did some playtesting over the weekend with the new BL list in a couple games vs MEQ. Focused on what I could do with the FOC moreso than the artefacts.
Several units stood out as being particularly effective in terms of what they did and the combos they set up. The core of my army looked like this:
1) MoN Chosen - took a 10 man squad, gave them 5 flamers and a Rhino. The flamers forced my opponent to stay away and try to shoot from distance. They eventually assaulted with 30 attacks on the charge.
2) NMs - took a 6 man squad of NMs with sonic weapons and a blastmaster. they stayed behind the flamers. All their shooting ignored cover, but they took cover from the MoN Chosen.
3) Plasma Chosen - took a 6 man squad, gave the Champion a plasma pistol and the others all had plasma guns.
In terms of tactics, I had the Flamer Chosen in a Rhino and popped smoke at the end of the first turn. The other guys ran up behind it. At the start of the second round, the Flamer Chosen set up as close as possible to the enemy and just took shots while the other units closed in.
Is this legal? I mean there is no BL in there. I just started Chaos recently so have no idea how they work. I am just going from what I read. Don't you have to have BL ally with CSM or vice versa? All I see is Slanneesh, , NM and Nurgle. What am I not seeing here? Please help me.
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
GW have just released a Black Legion supplement
(iPAD only so far but a print version will turn up eventually.. I want to say November maybe, can't remember for sure)
it's not a full codex (you still need the CSM one), but it offers alternative warlord traits and a few other bits and pieces to let you run a Black Legion list as a stand alone thing
(which could, if you wanted ally stuff from the CSM book)
53740
Post by: ZebioLizard2
Who wrote this book btw?
37755
Post by: Harriticus
Honestly the fluff in this was pretty good imo. It managed to make the Black Legion feel special without ruining their established identity. It also makes Abaddon into a total badass.
49068
Post by: Malisteen
 Harriticus wrote:Honestly the fluff in this was pretty good imo. It managed to make the Black Legion feel special without ruining their established identity. It also makes Abaddon into a total badass.
Yup. Very quality, especially for Abaddon fans. And the rules, while certainly nothing inspiring, aren't terrible.
My main complaint on both fronts is the lack of info or focus on other supporting characters within the Legion. Sure, several characters get name dropped, but apart from Abaddon nobody gets any focus. You never see their motivations or plans, you never see any influence from them. It's 'all abaddon all the time'. I was hoping for some new supporting characters, a la farsight's crew. But instead Black Legion just keeps access to the parent books special characters. Sure, most of them work with Abby on occasion, but when they do they bring their own forces, and that's what the ally rules are for.
But whatever, I can't really complain too hard. This book has a bunch of cool fluff, insight into the crusades, and Makes Abaddon a badass in the narrative, while giving players a few rules cookies to set their Black Legion army apart slightly. In all, I'd give the rules a 2 out of five, the scenarios a 3 out of five, and the fluff a 4 out of five, trending towards an 'acceptable' score of 3 for the book as a whole. Not as awesome as the Farsight supplement, but worth a purchase for Black Legion players and Abaddon fans.
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
It may well be that like many other Uber-leaders whether in war, business or politics one of Abadons traits is killing (or otherwise removing) anybody else who he thinks might possibly be a future threat
especially considering how he got the job
so the moment Chaos Space Marine Evil Bob is recognised as special he's either butchered, sent on a 'special mission' by himself (well away from the rest of the Legion) or offered to whichever Chaos power needs a cookie that week
so Black Legion consists of Abadabadon and a bunch of relatively faceless straight men with no other 'characters'
53740
Post by: ZebioLizard2
This just seems off at times. I honestly was surprised to see a single shot flamer (with soulblaze) as a  warlord trait. Seriously, who wrote this? What author made everything so..expensive or weak.
71772
Post by: 2x210
Access to Eternal Warrior is nice, does anyone know if you can mix and match Artifacts in other words
Deamon Prince with Black Mace and the Eternal Warrior thing?
53740
Post by: ZebioLizard2
2x210 wrote:Access to Eternal Warrior is nice, does anyone know if you can mix and match Artifacts in other words
Deamon Prince with Black Mace and the Eternal Warrior thing?
As per the rules, you can only take from one list if you take it. You cannot mix and match.
I can't believe they made Doombreed a normal DP with the Mark of Khorne though... So Lazy
7637
Post by: Sasori
Fluff and New Artwork (Especially the Cover!) Quite awesome.
The Rules? Absolutely terrible. The Artifact section is costed so bizarrely it makes no sense.
53740
Post by: ZebioLizard2
Sasori wrote:Fluff and New Artwork (Especially the Cover!) Quite awesome.
The Rules? Absolutely terrible. The Artifact section is costed so bizarrely it makes no sense.
Yeah, it's very schizophrenic about it's power levels.
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