Best_pone, who has also accurately predicted various other releases like High Elf and Eldar, has this to say about the next supplement:

Best_Pone wrote:So, I've heard from a little birdy that Black Legion will be getting the next supplement. No idea if that will be August or not though, seeing as August is a WFB month.

Source: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?376444-Black-Legion-are-Coming!

Edit: And it has been spotted in the digital releases section of the August White Dwarf:

Listed as in:
Definitive Background for the Black Legion
Detailed Timeline of major historical battles and events
Additional rules (to lead your forces in a Black Crusade)
Miniatures Gallery
Reference for special rules and Wargear

Black Legion?

The Chaos Space Marine force that is least in need of a special supplement?

OK!

Thanks for the link. Also amusing that the tracker is linked.

Well at least it's something but black legion is surely one of the legions you can represent quite well without a supplement, I just hope it doesn't take forever to get a hard copy like the farsight one.

ooooO As a black legion player I agree that there is probably little to gain but fluff from this codex release but I am however very excited!

Since the Black Legion is pretty much the ONLY legion that still operates in some form or shape in the 41st Millennium as writing by the "history-rundowns" of GW studio-publications go, it is arguably the only Legion that would make sense for a supplement, especially for an "historical-missions-type"-supplement similar to Iyanden.

All other legions are either entirely disbanded (World Eaters), better known for their ex-members who are at odds with the actual (remnants of the original) Legion, than the Legion itself (Thousand Sons) or "represented" as a Legion in 40K with minuscule groupings from Black Library/Forge World publications that barely have enough members for a 5-man tac squad (Night Lords).

A Black Legion supplement, arguably, could re-create a Black Crusade or some similar event of Abaddon's more recent 40K history in a series of consecutive missions much like Iyanden did the pre-Tyranid, fight-the-Tyranids, post-Tyranids story-arc for Iyanden.

Still would've vastly preferred Red Corsairs... oh well.

 pretre wrote:
Thanks for the link. Also amusing that the tracker is linked.

Well, it's a good thread.

A Black Legion supplement, thats, thats something......

It's kinda like if Codex Space Marines gets a Ultramarines Supplement, but that being said....... If this allows us to field an Abaddonwing list, then all is forgiven

Strange choice. In my opinion, Black Legion having a supplement is like Ultramarines having a supplement. IE, seems pointless, since both are supposed to be the standard by which the variants vary from.

EDIT: Ack, I got ninja'd.

EDIT 2: Well, I suppose that while Codex: Space Marines is basically Codex: Ultramarines, the same can't necessarily be said to be true for Codex: Chaos Space Marines if only due to the fact that only Word Bearers use Dark Apostles (although I imagine Word Bearers would be happy to install Dark Apostles amongst the Black Legion. Spread the word, you know? They seem to be on relatively good terms with each other... for chaos worshipers, at least)

I'm trying to think of what units or FoC changes could really make a Black Legion supplement work. Aside from taking every cult troop as Troops instead of Elites (which Abaddon already does) and taking a Terminator command squad, I'm coming up dry. Interesting to see though. I'm selfishly hoping for an Iron Warriors one, but I'm not holding my breath.

The best thing this supplement can do is make the rest of the CSM army work without leaning on tripple helldrake to be competitive.

I wonder if this has anything to do with ADBs Abaddon trilogy of books that are in the pipeline.

Perhaps the rules, missions and lore will be abbreviated/summarized versions of the lore ADB will write about in his Black Legion novels.

Would rather see supplements for any of the 4 Legions that are wholly dedicated to one Chaos god, personally, but I'm sure they're on the way.

Black legion feels too generic and all encompassing for a supplement. Codex chaos space marines can easily work as a black legion book.

It would make way more sense to do a legion that worships a specific god of chaos, or even a faction like the red corsairs where they operate on a totally different level and thus could have their own special rules.

Using black legion feels like a cash-in to me.

Maybe rules for Araghast and Eliphas?

I'm hoping it does something crazy like allow us to take Cult Termies, maybe give us some kind of new deamons or something, but unlikley

While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

Please be true.

As a BL player myself, I agree it seems like the strangest choice of all the legions, but the CSM dex is so boring that I hope this does something serious to shake it up and make the book more viable competitively and interesting / fun to play.

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

This.

What the hell, GW?

 Brother SRM wrote:
Aside from taking every cult troop as Troops instead of Elites (which Abaddon already does)...

No he doesn't. He makes Chosen Troops.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Since the Black Legion is pretty much the ONLY legion that still operates in some form or shape in the 41st Millennium as writing by the "history-rundowns" of GW studio-publications go, it is arguably the only Legion that would make sense for a supplement, especially for an "historical-missions-type"-supplement similar to Iyanden.

All other legions are either entirely disbanded (World Eaters), better known for their ex-members who are at odds with the actual (remnants of the original) Legion, than the Legion itself (Thousand Sons) or "represented" as a Legion in 40K with minuscule groupings from Black Library/Forge World publications that barely have enough members for a 5-man tac squad (Night Lords).

A Black Legion supplement, arguably, could re-create a Black Crusade or some similar event of Abaddon's more recent 40K history in a series of consecutive missions much like Iyanden did the pre-Tyranid, fight-the-Tyranids, post-Tyranids story-arc for Iyanden.

Still would've vastly preferred Red Corsairs... oh well.

Not one to argue but what about my Word Bearers?

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

ever think that they might actually change it so black legion isn't so vanilla?

If the eldar supplement is anything to go by though, these aren't about rules. Its about fluff, scenarios, and a bunch of mediocre 'eavy metal paint jobs, at an eye gouging price.

Just like putting a dust jacket on a codex and selling it for $40 more, these supplements aren't meant to make the studio do a lot of work.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:


Not one to argue but what about my Word Bearers?

Gone (save for those serving Huron Blackheart, whose command ship is a former Word Bearer Legion flagship "gifted" to him).

Lexicanum wrote:
Pre-heresy, the [Word Bearer] Legion was roughly 100,000 strong. It was split into Chapters of 1000 Marines each, made up of 10 Companies of a hundred Marines. They each with their own iconography. Four of these chapters are known, bearing these logos:

A quill with a drop of blood at the nib
An open hand with an eye in the palm
A burning book
A sceptre crowned with a skull

Each of these chapters represented a different aspect of the Word of Lorgar.

Also, if Forge World is part of your canon, a fair number of Word Bearers went and became Khorne Berzerkers, serving the World Eaters (before their eventual demise).

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

ever think that they might actually change it so black legion isn't so vanilla?

That is the question, Black legion IS the vanilla Chaos Marines. At least so I thought. Now if GW would do something nice with this supplement. Special Black legion spells/characters, not just abadon. More access to daemons, special wargear. Better Warlord Traits..

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

ever think that they might actually change it so black legion isn't so vanilla?

The question in that case is, how? And to what? We already have a legion for each of the gods (which covers psychics, close combat, durability, and speed), a legion for mechanized warfare and siege, a legion for stealth/terror, and a legion that primarily uses cultists. If anything, the Black Legion being vanilla was what differentiated it from all the other legions (and the reason why Codex: CSM should theoretically cover everything the Black Legion needs or has). Well, besides the Word Bearers, who are also rather vanilla.

Really, if they wanted a "Vanilla, but different" legion, they should have gone with the Red Corsairs, who are known to use things that other legions probably wouldn't (like Xenos, a sadly horrifically downplayed aspect of the fluff. Humans aren't the only things that can turn to chaos. Red Corsairs are more open to, or at least easily retconned into being more open to, normal humans in the ranks as opposed to just expendable cultists too, considering that Huron's playable army in the IA books could be played entirely without any marines in it if you wanted to if I recall correctly). Codex: CSM is practically Codex: Black Legion, already (a Word Bearers codex would implement more daemons into the mix, but that's kinda unnecessary with the allies system. I think Word Bearers stay away from single-god cult marines, too, unlike Black Legion, so with the exception of Dark Apostles, Codex: CSM as a whole fits Black Legion much more).

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

ever think that they might actually change it so black legion isn't so vanilla?

Wasn't that the point of the Black Legion, to be that generic "catch all" CSM force? And don't we have a CSM Legion already covering pretty much everything else? That sort of defeats the purpose they've been crafted for.

UltraPrime wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Aside from taking every cult troop as Troops instead of Elites (which Abaddon already does)...

No he doesn't. He makes Chosen Troops.

I thought since he had every mark he could take all cults as Troops? I haven't read up on him too much since I don't run him.

Black Legion?

I hope they make an Ultramarines book as well.

That Wordbearer fluff is news to me. I thought they were one of the more unified legions. Pretty disappointing if that's official.

Word Bearers would have been the perfect supplement codex. Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned. Such variety.

This certainly has me curious, if not a little puzzled.

I was really hoping for a Word Bearer Supplement...


I guess we're going to get some new Chaos Artifacts, and I could see that taking the Supplement would allow you to take all cult units as troops.

Who knows though, I'm curious to see where this is going.

Goddamn GW, haven't you taken enough of my money?!

God only knows why they've decided to make this, it'll be interesting to see if the rules will differ greatly from the regular codex.
Maybe it'll unlock Cult units as troops?

It'll be weird though as Abaddon is in the main Codex, I'm not familiar with the Iyanden supplement, but can you mix and match?

 Medium of Death wrote:
That Wordbearer fluff is news to me. I thought they were one of the more unified legions. Pretty disappointing if that's official.

Word Bearers would have been the perfect supplement codex. Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned. Such variety.

This certainly has me curious, if not a little puzzled.

I'm sorry, maybe my statements about the Word Bearers is being misinterpreted (or are you referring to someone else's statement?). I didn't mean to imply anywhere that Word Bearers weren't united.

If anything, Word Bearers are probably the most united of the traitor legions. All Word Bearers answer to the Dark Council and generally operate as a cohesive legion with a singular goal all the time. The Black Legion, meanwhile, is mostly separate warbands that get together when Abaddon tells them to, but otherwise I'm under the impression they get to do their own things (within reason. The "within reason" part is what makes the Black Legion a lot more unified than most other traitor legions).

(this is "relative". Word Bearers are still Chaos and thus divisions arise, but these are so minor on the overall scale that Erebus regards his little shadow civil wars with Kor Phaeron to just be normal daily routine things).

A Word Bears Codex would probably have more focus on normal humans (the flock) and daemons, at the cost of single-god units (Word Bearers frown on giving into a single God instead of Chaos Undivided, I believe)

 Plokoone wrote:
Black Legion?

I hope they make an Ultramarines book as well.

Exactly! After hearing this news, I'm almost positive there will be a UM Supplement. Insane ...

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
Goddamn GW, haven't you taken enough of my money?!

God only knows why they've decided to make this, it'll be interesting to see if the rules will differ greatly from the regular codex.
Maybe it'll unlock Cult units as troops?

It'll be weird though as Abaddon is in the main Codex, I'm not familiar with the Iyanden supplement, but can you mix and match?

From what I've heard, it's actually open enough to allow at least most regular Eldar choices, and was mostly some different warlord traits/gear/a little reorganization of force org, that you can use in a variant of the regular codex (all the new stuff replaced the regular options)

Would have loved to see some Night Lord love.

Wasn't that the point of the Black Legion, to be that generic "catch all" CSM force? And don't we have a CSM Legion already covering pretty much everything else? That sort of defeats the purpose they've been crafted for.

This is probably going to be a supplement that finally differentiates them from the rest of the renegades. I think it's best to be patient and see what they came up with before passing judgement.

 Alpharius wrote:
Black Legion?

The Chaos Space Marine force that is least in need of a special supplement?

OK!

I don't think these early supplements are meant to be game changers. Just filler and bumps in sales. Look at what we already know or have.

Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Do we really need a farsight supplement? He's in the book, you can already not take kroot or ethereals if you want. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious Tau fans.

However, if the pace of codexes keeps up there's going to be a period of time toward the end of 6ed lifecycle where there's little left to update. That's where a much anticipated supplement, with some major changes like new special character and FOC adjustments, makes the most sense (from a sales perspective).

 winterman wrote:


Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Do we really need a farsight supplement? He's in the book, you can already not take kroot or ethereals if you want. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious Tau fans.

They all share having ties to relatively specific, and highly "iconic" events that can be "re-told" in the campaign-style missions of the Iyanden book.

Iyanden, well, has the near-destruction of the Iyanden Craftworld, broken down to an almost "family-sized" history revolving around 3 or 4 main-characters. Most other Craftworlds, Saim-Hann say, aren't that defined by a singular turning point.

Farsight, similarly, in that the new Codex tells the Farsight-enclaves break-away as an almost triangle-tale of rivalries/interactions between Shadowsun, Farsight, Aun'va and, possibly, Puretide.

Black Legion will be able to home in on the last Black Crusade, Cadia, etc,,, in ways the more "diffuse" Legions cannot.

By the same measure, I could easily see an Ultramarines (Tyranids again) or Crimson Fists (Rynn's World!) supplement in the Iyanden-format, the way I couldn't see, say, a Raven Guard supplement (at least not with the kind of emphasis and focus that made the Iyanden supplement).

 winterman wrote:
I don't think these early supplements are meant to be game changers. Just filler and bumps in sales. Look at what we already know or have.

Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Do we really need a farsight supplement? He's in the book, you can already not take kroot or ethereals if you want. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious Tau fans.

However, if the pace of codexes keeps up there's going to be a period of time toward the end of 6ed lifecycle where there's little left to update. That's where a much anticipated supplement, with some major changes like new special character and FOC adjustments, makes the most sense (from a sales perspective).

I totally agree. Extra rules, force org chart moves, metagame shifts, etc. aren't really GW's focus for these right now so much as providing extra fluff, color and fun for diehards.

I think there were past rumors about a new Abaddon sculpt...that could be something we'd see alongside a BL supplement.

It is all very simple really. Black Legion is arguably the most popular of the Chaos Space Marine chapters which means a supplement for that faction has the highest chances of selling the best. It really isn't about what unit types aren't as popular on the tabletop in the original codex and could use a booster with a supplement. What it comes down to is a) The best bang they can get for their buck and b) everything else.

So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

There's potential here, but as per usual, GW has kept its pants firmly on its head.

I mean, for Chaos, Iron Warriors really make the most sense as a supplement, as you can't really represent them or Night Lords with any real effectiveness out of the existant codex. All you'd need is some special wargear, unique warlord trait, and allow Imperial Guard artillery as heavy support options; basilisks and the like.

Viola, fits the very limited format they're going with to a tee, Night Lords would be much the same; raptors as troops, fear USR and a few fluffy warlord traits and gear.

I'd, of course, prefer something more exhaustive, but this system can work to help give a little more flavour to under-loved Chaos factions.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

The rumor given by Big Red was Catachan. That said, since Iyanden was announced just about every codex has had a rumored supplement already despite never hearing about them beforehand (and the second hasn't been released yet). Best Pone's got some decent accuracy on recent rumors, so that'd be the supplement I'd believe most from the recent mentions.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

That was my first thought.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, we'll be seeing a Cadian supplement for Guard then, right guys?

There's potential here, but as per usual, GW has kept its pants firmly on its head.

I mean, for Chaos, Iron Warriors really make the most sense as a supplement, as you can't really represent them or Night Lords with any real effectiveness out of the existant codex. All you'd need is some special wargear, unique warlord trait, and allow Imperial Guard artillery as heavy support options; basilisks and the like.

Viola, fits the very limited format they're going with to a tee, Night Lords would be much the same; raptors as troops, fear USR and a few fluffy warlord traits and gear.

I'd, of course, prefer something more exhaustive, but this system can work to help give a little more flavour to under-loved Chaos factions.

I play Iron Warriors, and I don't think we need our own supplement. You can take daemon engines or Vindicators or Obliterators just fine as is, take a Warsmith (drop the P, keep it Iron ) and ally in Guard with a battery of three Basilisks. You can actually take more Basilisks with Iron Warriors now than you could in the 3.5 codex!

meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

TiamatRoar wrote:
Really, if they wanted a "Vanilla, but different" legion, they should have gone with the Red Corsairs, who are known to use things that other legions probably wouldn't (like Xenos, a sadly horrifically downplayed aspect of the fluff. Humans aren't the only things that can turn to chaos.

I've always wondered this myself. Why can only humans turn to chaos? Then I realized that GW has written horrible fluff and came up with some stupid excuse so they didn't have to create chaos tau or chaos orks. They don't even have rules for chaos SoB. Just CSM. Very lazy in my opinion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

Well, we do know that it is the last chaos army in need of a suppliment. So there is that...

 winterman wrote:
Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Yeah, the Iyanden Supplement was a fluff book ... and?

Iyanden are not bog standard Eldar. Black Legion, at least in previous edition, are bog standard CSM.

dereksatkinson wrote:

Wasn't that the point of the Black Legion, to be that generic "catch all" CSM force? And don't we have a CSM Legion already covering pretty much everything else? That sort of defeats the purpose they've been crafted for.

This is probably going to be a supplement that finally differentiates them from the rest of the renegades. I think it's best to be patient and see what they came up with before passing judgement.

Again, Black Legion being Vanilla is already what differentiates it from the rest of the renegades in the first place. Out of all the traitor legions, only the Black Legion has all 4 cult troops (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords frown on singular god troops most of the time), a decent amount of artillery (night lords are almost entirely fear and shock and nothing else), cultists, and use of daemons and sorcery as well, all in "balanced" amounts. In other words, the codex of Chaos Marines which has everything is the codex of the Black Legion because they have everything (except Dark Apostles, who are Word Bearer only. That said, I'd be surprised if the Word Bearers didn't have some of them attached to the Black Legion to keep the good word spreading). It's the Black Legion that other legions define themselves against by showing the emphasis of specialists they have that the Black Legion doesn't (like ridiculous amounts of artillery the Iron Warriors have above and beyond what the Black Legion typically fields), as well as the units they lack that the Black Legion has (like dedicated single-god troops).

About the only new unit I can think of at the moment that would fit in as a Black Legion unit is a unit that conveys coherency bonuses to units of different gods (Black Legion is a legion of Chaos Undivided that utilizes all four god's specialized units, so it'd thematically make sense that the Black Legion have officers who specialize in finding ways to get Slaaneshi Noise Marines and Khornate Beserkers to actually get along for the sake of a common goal of spreading Chaos). ....actually, that'd be kinda neat now that I think about it. ...whatever.

 Davespil wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Really, if they wanted a "Vanilla, but different" legion, they should have gone with the Red Corsairs, who are known to use things that other legions probably wouldn't (like Xenos, a sadly horrifically downplayed aspect of the fluff. Humans aren't the only things that can turn to chaos.

I've always wondered this myself. Why can only humans turn to chaos? Then I realized that GW has written horrible fluff and came up with some stupid excuse so they didn't have to create chaos tau or chaos orks. They don't even have rules for chaos SoB. Just CSM. Very lazy in my opinion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

Well, we do know that it is the last chaos army in need of a suppliment. So there is that...

In the Chaos Daemons fluff, Khorne actually trains his Heralds by using a faction of orks that he personally took to his kingdom in the warp. They were the ones that landed on a planet and kept being revived day by day, fighting a powerful Daemon Lord...And loved it! Khorne was so proud of them that he swept them up, and brought them to fight his greatest warriors, still being revived day by day, battle by battle, able to be watched by khorne as he looks down in glee at the foot of his lair.


But maybe this is where they finally differentiate Black Legion. I mean Ultramarines has it's Anti-Tyranid hate (Anti-tyranid warriors) and some other stuff, maybe thats what they're doing now?

 Manchu wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Iyanden was also the craftworld least in need of a supplement, wraithguard already as troops and they have a special character and appropriate generic HQ. There's little reason other then it's a book for serious eldar fans.

Yeah, the Iyanden Supplement was a fluff book ... and?

Iyanden are not bog standard Eldar. Black Legion, at least in previous edition, are bog standard CSM.

So Black Legion are bog standard CSM ... and?

What would constitute bog standard Eldar? And that wouldn't serve GW more from a sales standpoint being released with some future model update? And that pimps the current crop of models?

In otherwords if there's nothing new to sell model wise then the supplements are going to focus on the bog standard or stuff that is already released, not the outliers.

That's the point of my post, which is wholly lost when you only quote a part of it.

GW marketing is better served by holding back armies like Word Bearers and World Eaters for when they have updated kits to pimp. Hence Black Legion gets released, something that can easily pimp what is already released with something as simple as an extra list of wargear (Black Legion specific demon weapon, teleport homers) and an FOC swap (cult units as troops without a lord, like they used to be able to do since 3.5).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Again, Black Legion being Vanilla is already what differentiates it from the rest of the renegades in the first place. Out of all the traitor legions, only the Black Legion has all 4 cult troops (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords frown on singular god troops most of the time), a decent amount of artillery (night lords are almost entirely fear and shock and nothing else), cultists, and use of daemons and sorcery as well, all in "balanced" amounts. In other words, the codex of Chaos Marines which has everything is the codex of the Black Legion because they have everything (except Dark Apostles, who are Word Bearer only.

The current codex places limits on the cult units that have not applied to Black Legion players since before 3.5. I think that alone is reason enough to release a BL supplement.

Word Bearers will get a supplemement once GW releases an actual cultist box (or some other new kit that fits them)

Well, looks like all the "Ultramarine supplement" jokes have been made, but the fact they are to CSM what UM are to C:SM makes me fairly sceptical of this rumour. They just seem too generic. I can believe the book will get a supplement, but not this one.

On the other hand I think Catachans would make sense as an IG supplement, as they're hardly the "all-rounder" of IG regiments and some pretty interesting stuff could be done with their guerrilla/highly mobile theme.

 Alpharius wrote:
Black Legion?

The Chaos Space Marine force that is least in need of a special supplement?

OK!

This is EXACTLY the first thought I had. Iyanden made sense (what with the new Wraithguard plastics, Wraithknight, and Spiritseer releases), as did Tau (Farsight being the most well-known specific Tau group). But Black Legion? Aren't they like the Ultramarines of Chaos? Since the supplements don't seem to offer a great deal in terms of substantive rules and such, I guess this is not all that strange, but I can't help but think that Iron Warriors, or some other popular, non-standard CSM legion would have been a better plase to start. How many people out there have Black Legion forces compared to Iron Warriors? Or World Eaters, Thousand Sons, etc.

-C6

TiamatRoar wrote:
... if only due to the fact that only Word Bearers use Dark Apostles...

They changed that fluff. Everyone has 'em now.

I am pretty sure Legion was meant to be Templars but easy mistake, right?...... Right?

 unmercifulconker wrote:
I am pretty sure Legion was meant to be Templars but easy mistake, right?...... Right?

No. Unless, if by Templars you mean Bretonnians then... still NO. Man, WHFB has been getting some serious neglect this year.

A cadian supplement would be sweet. They are not a typical guard regiment at all. The average imperial guardsman is not trained in battle from childhood, and it'd be cool if a supplement could capture the martial prowess of cadia.

 Medium of Death wrote:
That Wordbearer fluff is news to me. I thought they were one of the more unified legions. Pretty disappointing if that's official.
Word Bearers would have been the perfect supplement codex. Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned. Such variety.
This certainly has me curious, if not a little puzzled.

Yeah, I've never read/heard that. Source?

 Manchu wrote:

 Plokoone wrote:
Black Legion?

I hope they make an Ultramarines book as well.

Exactly! After hearing this news, I'm almost positive there will be a UM Supplement. Insane ...

To be fair though, Black Legion and Ultramarines do each have something unique to them.

Ultramarines have the "Tyrannic War Veterans" which people lamented vanishing and the Black Legion have been described recently(at least in the Black Library, I'm thinking of the Soul Hunter books right off the top of my head) as having a large amount of captured Guard armour and traitor Guard personnel(and freed Imperial criminals) as being part of their resources at hand.

Ultramarines getting Tyrannic War Veteran rules in a little 'supplement' is not something I would be opposed to, provided it also gave Telion some more background.

Black Legion getting actual, dedicated cultists with serious firepower and training? Again: Not something I would be opposed to.

Cadians getting an actual Kasrkin unit profile and the ability to field them en masse?
All over that...provided it comes out in a physical format, as I do not have a tablet that I would use to cart things around on.

Traitor Guard are already represented in at least four places (Imperial Guard, 3 different iterations of rabble with the siege of Vraks).

Back when Kasrkin were an option, Stormtroopers didn't have AP3 rifles- you were mostly buying veteran stats and carapace armor (which you can still do)

Got nothing on Tyrannic vets.

If this brings with it a plastic Chosen kit, I'm all for it.

I was hoping they would do Ksons ...

Give us our own rules making it worth taking ksons ...

Cultists with special Tzeench flavor based on # of psykers in play .... maybe improve that 6+ from MoT.

Kson Sorcerers who dont get crappy Tzeench powers?

Giving Ksons something other then a banner of uselessness. (maybe one that grants relentless or dumps slow and purposeful or just letting us overwatch!)

Allowing us to take other Tzeench marked HQs ... Demon Prince?

Special kson Termie rules?

Sorcerer Brother Hoods rules? Allow Multiple Sorcerers to be taken per HQ slot

Will be interesting, but I was wondering ... isn't GW making the supplements direct only? If so I heard that they are not allowing the supplements that are direct only in tournaments... so I could be wrong on that just what I heard (I don't play tournaments and I only know for sure that the flier one as a direct sale from GW... so maybe its just that book?

Wonder if the book will be used to help tie in the Heresy Era stuff from Forge World ... might be cool...like some use of older stuff that they Forge World is doing now

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Will be interesting, but I was wondering ... isn't GW making the supplements direct only? If so I heard that they are not allowing the supplements that are direct only in tournaments... so I could be wrong on that just what I heard (I don't play tournaments and I only know for sure that the flier one as a direct sale from GW... so maybe its just that book?

Wonder if the book will be used to help tie in the Heresy Era stuff from Forge World ... might be cool...like some use of older stuff that they Forge World is doing now

GW doesn't really run tournaments so that's pretty much meaningless.

Wow.

If ths is true, I can't wait for the Space Wolves Supplement for Codex Space Wolves...

 insaniak wrote:
Wow.

If ths is true, I can't wait for the Space Wolves Supplement for Codex Space Wolves...

13th Company making a comeback could be nice.

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Wonder if the book will be used to help tie in the Heresy Era stuff from Forge World ... might be cool...like some use of older stuff that they Forge World is doing now

Not going to happen. The only GW Studio publications that havw ever had Forgeworld stuff in it has been Apocalypse stuff. Even to the point of GW redoing some FW kits in plastic when they wanted them in a codex (ala the Trygon), and they've said that's not happening anymore (since it cannibalises their own range).

You won't be seeing rules for Forgeworld stuff in a supplement outside of Apocalypse.

Maybe they'll give Land Raiders some actual options.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Maybe they'll give Land Raiders some actual options.

Hahaha. I know right? Chaos land raiders are the worst.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Wow.

If ths is true, I can't wait for the Space Wolves Supplement for Codex Space Wolves...

13th Company making a comeback could be nice.

It certainly would be, be I'd fear we'd just get great company books instead.

I'm a little baffled by the choice of BL tbh, but hell if it gives more options to chaos, I can't get too upset about it, anything to stop codex chaos bland v.2.0

I love how people are 'baffled' by this. As if anyone could possibly have a different favourite chaos legion than their own

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how people are 'baffled' by this. As if anyone could possibly have a different favourite chaos legion than their own

Favourites have nothing to do with the confusion here.

Black Legion getting actual, dedicated cultists with serious firepower and training? Again: Not something I would be opposed to.

- These would be better served in an Alpha Legion supplement imo. Nowhere in the BL fluff (that I recall) does it suggest that they have better trained and equipped human followers than other legions. However, the AL used well trained and equipped humans even before the heresy (if you take the Legion novel as canon anyway).

I think the reason for the BL supplement is to give them more access to cult units like they used to have in previous codexes.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I'm trying to think of what units or FoC changes could really make a Black Legion supplement work. Aside from taking every cult troop as Troops instead of Elites (which Abaddon already does) and taking a Terminator command squad, I'm coming up dry. Interesting to see though. I'm selfishly hoping for an Iron Warriors one, but I'm not holding my breath.

You are talking about taking cult units as troops in the fluff right? Because Abby can only take Chosen as troops :-\

 insaniak wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how people are 'baffled' by this. As if anyone could possibly have a different favourite chaos legion than their own

Favourites have nothing to do with the confusion here.

Then why the confusion?

 BryllCream wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how people are 'baffled' by this. As if anyone could possibly have a different favourite chaos legion than their own

Favourites have nothing to do with the confusion here.

Then why the confusion?

Because the BL are the go-to generic CSM for games workshop. Hence all the "Ultramarines supplement jokes"

And they're giving that apparently popular army a bunch of additional fluff and some new scenarios. Makes perfect sense.

They'll probably get some new rules also, but it seems fairly obvious that the rules aren't the focus or bulk of the content if the Iyanden book is any indication.

The confusion is between what these books are and what some people want them to be.

 RunningWithScissors49 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how people are 'baffled' by this. As if anyone could possibly have a different favourite chaos legion than their own

Favourites have nothing to do with the confusion here.

Then why the confusion?

Because BL are the go-to generic CSM for games workshop. Hence all the "Ultramarines supplement jokes"

And that prevents them having their own fluff/wargear/warlord traits why exactly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:


The confusion is between what these books are and what some people want them to be.

This.

Black Legion is a very, very odd choice in my opinion. It would be like doing an Ultramarine Supplement. I'd have thought that the Red Corsairs (or whatever Huron's fleet is called) would have been a far better choice.

Oh BryllCream, you blowhard!

Seriously, most of us have a vision in our head about what GW should be doing with supplements and what GW is really doing with supplements is no where near that. We want a book with different army lists for off-shoots of the main codexes (White Scars, Alpha Legion, Catachan, Speed Freaks, etc.). GW wants to put together a $50 book without doing too much work that offers almost no variety to the game. Sure, it contains fluff so some people may be happy.

 Manchu wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

This.

What the hell, GW?

Aye. Same with Ultras. Back in the day the space marine codex was codex: ultramarines. Perhaps this going to be things like extra special characters, ultramarine centered missions from the background. I hardly see new units coming though.

 The Shadow wrote:
Black Legion is a very, very odd choice in my opinion. It would be like doing an Ultramarine Supplement. I'd have thought that the Red Corsairs (or whatever Huron's fleet is called) would have been a far better choice.

The Black Legion really could use the chance to get some 30 pages of fluff focused on them and some rules to make them more than just the legion painted on the box. What do we really know about about the Black Legion besides Abbadon and the Black Crusades? Ultramarines have a ton of special characters with rules and models. Can people name a BL character besides Abbadon in 40K? (not 30K)

Ultramarines supplement does have it's uses as well. The 5th Edition book was meant to be Codex: UM before it changed to be Codex: SM again. Thus the heavy UM fluff and characters. There's about 15-20 pages of fluff and pictures that are soley dedicated to Ultramarines, which could be pulled out of the main book and put into a supplement, giving room for other chapters (Iron Hands, Raven Guard) to get some much needed attention. An UM supplement could also do things like bring back the tyrannic War vets, who disappeared between 4th and 5th.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
The 5th Edition book was meant to be Codex: UM before it changed to be Codex: SM again. Thus the heavy UM fluff and characters. There's about 15-20 pages of fluff and pictures that are soley dedicated to Ultramarines, which could be pulled out of the main book and put into a supplement, giving room for other chapters (Iron Hands, Raven Guard) to get some much needed attention.

That is stupid. 5th Edition is by far the least UM-specific Space Marine Codex ever published. Have you even looked at the 4th Edition Codex by McNeill?

All the UM-specific units from 4th were "un-UM-ized" for 5th.
The amount of non-UM characters and fluff was expanded disproportionally
The UM-logo/sigil on EVERY page and EVERY unit-artwork was removed

The sheer amount of non-UM-stuff and non-UM-focus in the 5th Edition was the greatest near-slaughter of the UM-Holy-Cow in GW's history.

Perhaps this release will coincide with a new Abaddon sculpt? The current model is still one of the nicest, but it is a little dated.

I think doing the BL supplement is actually a very good choice for GW

1) In fluff terms, the Black Legion are really the only organized chaos space marine force that can field entire armies with attached Dark Mechanicus war machines, navy vessels, and hordes of daemon allies. It still has a near Heresy style organization. Abaddon is a "general of armies." He can mobilize the Black Legion to fight in multiple theaters (planets/sub-sectors). The Emperor's Children and Night Lords are warbands. They are represented by the appropriate codex choices well enough. The Iron Warriors can mobilize a large campaign force but can only prosecute one theater at a time. I think C: CSM is actually heavily supportive of the Iron Warriors anyway. The new daemon engine models (to include the new infantry models) fit their fluff better than any other legion. The Death Guard (rather Plague Marines) are pretty much deployed by one battleship, the Terminus Est. Typhus is a "general" like figure and deploys his forces like an army. So, the Black Legion are very open to have new supplemental rules and a new warlord table. They really need rules that make them function like a well-coordinated army and not just a large force of disparate parts like they do now.

2) GW can fill the entire supplement with illustrations of their huge BL army. There's a huge amount of art out there as well.

3) All the codices are pointing to the start of the 13th Black Crusade. Why not start the show by featuring Abaddon and his legion.

4) Somebody also mentioned ADB's BL novel is coming out soon too.

 Oaka wrote:
Perhaps this release will coincide with a new Abaddon sculpt? The current model is still one of the nicest, but it is a little dated.

That's a lovely thought, but I sincerely doubt it. GW very, very rarely redoes special characters. Aside from Farsight, who was a metal/plastic hybrid kit, GW haven't resculpted a special character in a long, long time. I mean, I guess you can make a case for Asmodai, but he wasn't even in the previous Dark Angels codex so I'm not sure how much water that argument holds. The past two supplements haven't come out with any new models (Eldar released with the usual amount of models, no extras for Iyanden) so I wouldn't expect anything. At the very least you can use Forgeworld's excellent Abaddon model.

How exactly do supplements work?

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
Perhaps this release will coincide with a new Abaddon sculpt? The current model is still one of the nicest, but it is a little dated.

That's a lovely thought, but I sincerely doubt it. GW very, very rarely redoes special characters. Aside from Farsight, who was a metal/plastic hybrid kit, GW haven't resculpted a special character in a long, long time. I mean, I guess you can make a case for Asmodai, but he wasn't even in the previous Dark Angels codex so I'm not sure how much water that argument holds. The past two supplements haven't come out with any new models (Eldar released with the usual amount of models, no extras for Iyanden) so I wouldn't expect anything. At the very least you can use Forgeworld's excellent Abaddon model.

Humm.. might have to check forge world out for that Abaddon Model for my Black Legion ... did not realize they had one but have not been to that site for awhile. Glad you mentioned that

 marrowick wrote:
How exactly do supplements work?

They literally supplement what's in the army codex. The Eldar supplement for instance has new Warlord traits and some FoC alterations. You don't necessarily need the supplement but the supplement does need the codex as it just changes a few options.

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
Perhaps this release will coincide with a new Abaddon sculpt? The current model is still one of the nicest, but it is a little dated.

That's a lovely thought, but I sincerely doubt it. GW very, very rarely redoes special characters. Aside from Farsight, who was a metal/plastic hybrid kit, GW haven't resculpted a special character in a long, long time. I mean, I guess you can make a case for Asmodai, but he wasn't even in the previous Dark Angels codex so I'm not sure how much water that argument holds. The past two supplements haven't come out with any new models (Eldar released with the usual amount of models, no extras for Iyanden) so I wouldn't expect anything. At the very least you can use Forgeworld's excellent Abaddon model.

Humm.. might have to check forge world out for that Abaddon Model for my Black Legion ... did not realize they had one but have not been to that site for awhile. Glad you mentioned that

The Chaotic one's been sold out for years, however the Heresy Era one's of course in stock. =/

 gorgon wrote:
And they're giving that apparently popular army a bunch of additional fluff and some new scenarios. Makes perfect sense.

They'll probably get some new rules also, but it seems fairly obvious that the rules aren't the focus or bulk of the content if the Iyanden book is any indication.

The confusion is between what these books are and what some people want them to be.

The confusion is why they aren't doing one for one of the more popular legions, and nearly every legion is more popular than BL. I can't think of a time I've seen a BL army in the P and M threads, or anyone talking about their own BL army. IW, KSons, WE, AL... Have seen them plenty of times. I've seen Sons of Horus and even Luna Wolves more times than BL.

 catharsix wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
And they're giving that apparently popular army a bunch of additional fluff and some new scenarios. Makes perfect sense.

They'll probably get some new rules also, but it seems fairly obvious that the rules aren't the focus or bulk of the content if the Iyanden book is any indication.

The confusion is between what these books are and what some people want them to be.

The confusion is why they aren't doing one for one of the more popular legions, and nearly every legion is more popular than BL. I can't think of a time I've seen a BL army in the P and M threads, or anyone talking about their own BL army. IW, KSons, WE, AL... Have seen them plenty of times. I've seen Sons of Horus and even Luna Wolves more times than BL.

Maybe that is why they are doing it then (if you're correct about BL being least popular)
It is early days, this rumour has made me consider starting a BL army depending on how the supp is.

Popularity isn't really the issue either.

It's more to do with who actually needs an expansion. BL are the Ultramarines of the Chaos pantheon. They need a supplement as much as, well, Ultramarines do.

A supplement would make far more sense being used to flesh out one of the more deviant Legions.

 insaniak wrote:


A supplement would make far more sense being used to flesh out one of the more deviant Legions.

Why would that make more sense?

 insaniak wrote:
Popularity isn't really the issue either.

It's more to do with who actually needs an expansion. BL are the Ultramarines of the Chaos pantheon. They need a supplement as much as, well, Ultramarines do.

A supplement would make far more sense being used to flesh out one of the more deviant Legions.

Except Ultramarines do infact have unique things to themselves just as any offhand chapter does.

Though it'd be a higher focus on general tactics, they do have unique things related to anti-tyranid tactics, such as Tyrannic war veterans.

Zweischneid wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


A supplement would make far more sense being used to flesh out one of the more deviant Legions.

Why would that make more sense?

Because in the same way that Codex: Space Marines represents standard Codex Chapters, the Chaos Space Marines codex represents typical Chaos Space Marine forces. The best use for a supplement therefore is to flesh out non-typical forces.

Am I the only one hoping for a more Lost and the Damned style focus for this...........Hopefully it'll bring in mutants and traitors and the lesser followers which have been sadly absent for so long and maybe flesh out the cultists some more.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
That Wordbearer fluff is news to me. I thought they were one of the more unified legions. Pretty disappointing if that's official.
Word Bearers would have been the perfect supplement codex. Daemons, CSM, Lost and the Damned. Such variety.
This certainly has me curious, if not a little puzzled.

Yeah, I've never read/heard that. Source?

They seem pretty unified to me. I'm not sure where the split into different chapters comes from, is it the new codex?

From the Daemon World of Sicarus, Lorgar watches over his Legion and orchestrates the vast corruption from within that the Imperium suffers at the hands of his cults and covens. Unlike many of the other Traitor Legions, the Word Bearers have remained a unified, if loosely organised, military force, the main ruling body of which is known as the Dark Council, which rules in Lorgar's absence.[6]
From the two primary bases of the Legion, Sicarus and the factory-world of Ghalmek, located within the Maelstrom, the Word Bearers launch twisted wars of faith against the Imperium. On each world they attack, they incubate a seed of heresy that will one day contribute to their ever-expanding web of cults. Sometimes however, this brings them into competition with the efforts of the Alpha Legion. Though the Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers have united several times to take part in the Black Crusades of Ezekyle Abaddon, they are more usually in states of bitter division and rivalry. However, these things are but distractions as their war against the Imperium of Man is total, and they do not intend for it to end until every icon of the Emperor lies shattered at their feet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Llamahead wrote:
Am I the only one hoping for a more Lost and the Damned style focus for this...........Hopefully it'll bring in mutants and traitors and the lesser followers which have been sadly absent for so long and maybe flesh out the cultists some more.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, I think a lot of people would welcome the return of the "Lost and the Damned" in some form.

With the new fluff about the "Crimson Path", the focus could be on Daemons but perhaps the L&D will squeeze their way in.

In his most recent assault, the 13th Black Crusade, Abaddon managed to gain a foothold in the Cadian Gate, planning to extend the Eye of Terror to encompass even Terra in a plan known as The Crimson Path.[6] Although his ultimate victory has thus far been prevented, the High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago.[2]Should Abaddon's armies triumph, the floodgates will be open and a never ending tide of Chaos will pour out of the Eye of Terror to despoil the Imperium, and perhaps once again strike at the most prized of worlds - Terra itself.

I think I might have to buy an Ezekiel model just in case this sup will be fun. The forgeworld one -does- look amazing.

 insaniak wrote:

Because in the same way that Codex: Space Marines represents standard Codex Chapters, the Chaos Space Marines codex represents typical Chaos Space Marine forces. The best use for a supplement therefore is to flesh out non-typical forces.

The Chaos Space Marines Codex represents all Chaos Space Marines forces, just as the Codex: Space Marines represents a variety of non-Codex Chapters too.

While you may prefer that supplements flesh out some more exotic armies, that isn't what they do. The Codex Supplements flesh out iconic "events", "campaigns", etc.. in the 40K history (such as the fall of Iyanden), and no Chaos Space Marine faction has a more iconic/better-known "event" like that than the Black Legion's Black Crusades (with the Red Corsairs Badab War arguably being a close second).


The assumption that it is "deviation from norm-x" that justifies or not justifies a Codex Supplement (or a Codex even) is yours alone.

So the supplements are to represent a particular events or campaigns, then why is the newest one is about the Farsight Enclaves?

I think Codex: Space Marines is universally accepted as representing Chapters who follow the Codex Astartes relatively rigorously, compared to say Space Wolves, Blood Angels or Grey Knights.

The missing 2 Codex Astartes options you can't represent in the SM Codex are an Assault Company and First company in Terminator Armour, but that is covered by Blood Angels and Dark Angels respectively. There's still a few things missing but Codex: SM goes a long way to giving you the picture of your average Space Marine chapter.

WHAT!? That's like the Vanilla Marine codex having a Ultramarine Supplement...

 Brother SRM wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
meh....the most boring csm legion gets a supplement - yay......codex cadia suuplement next

Joke's already been made on this page, but thanks for complaining about it before we know anything about it whatsoever, that's pretty helpful!

Thats the beauty of the internet mate......I can pitch in with my thoughts regardless of how helpful you consider them to be.

 Medium of Death wrote:
So the supplements are to represent a particular events or campaigns, then why is the newest one is about the Farsight Enclaves?

I think Codex: Space Marines is universally accepted as representing Chapters who follow the Codex Astartes relatively rigorously, compared to say Space Wolves, Blood Angels or Grey Knights..

Blood Angels and Dark Angels follow the Codex Astartes much more rigorously than Iron Hands or White Scars.

This "universally accepted" representation you speak of is news to me.

And it is about the Farsight Enclaves in the same way that Iyanden is about the Craftworld Iyanden... i.e. the (origins) story (told through missions) that defines this sub-faction.

Note the sequence in which they name things, and (in the end) the purpose they say these books serve.

About this Book:
Farsight Enclaves is a digital supplement to Codex: Tau Empire that features rich and expanded background on this breakaway faction, original art, and the story of the Enclaves' charismatic leader Commander Farsight.

Also included are new missions and rules to use with your Tau Empire collection in games of Warhammer 40,000, so you can re-enact the great victories of the Enclaves, and lead commander Farsights’ elite battlesuit cadres to glory.

If GW sticks to this template, a Black Legions Supplement would be a good fit. It would feature (first) fluff, (second) new missions and (third) some rules that allow you to re-enact the Black Crusade.

An Ultramarines supplement would also fit very well. It would include (first) fluff, (second) new missions and (third) a few rules to re-enact famous 40K-history events (e.g. the Battle for Macragge). A Crimson Fists supplement would also work very well (e.g. fluff, missions and perhaps a page of rules to re-enact the battle for Rynn's World).

In contrast, say, Thousand Sons don't really work for the format GW is currently going for, because they are mainly sitting on their Daemon Planet sulking if they aren't trying to detain Ahirman.

Likewise, a Iron Hands supplement probably would not work in this format, because.. well.. they simply aren't associated with any kind of dynamic event. They're just the Chapter of Cypernetic Space Marines (and GW isn't going to invent "new" lore for these supplements if they can milk their own backlog. 5th Edition's creative audacity on display with books such as Grey Knights and Necrons Codex seems to have evaporated completely with 6th Edition).

Is that the best format/template/design-standard one could write Codex Supplements to? Probably not. But it IS the one GW is using atm, so it makes sense that they pick sub-factions that cater to it.

KaryudoDS wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
How exactly do supplements work?

They literally supplement what's in the army codex. The Eldar supplement for instance has new Warlord traits and some FoC alterations. You don't necessarily need the supplement but the supplement does need the codex as it just changes a few options.

Would these supplements be in the FaQ? I mean are the supplements the stuff like how they changed the Noise marine blastmaster restrictions?

 marrowick wrote:

KaryudoDS wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
How exactly do supplements work?

They literally supplement what's in the army codex. The Eldar supplement for instance has new Warlord traits and some FoC alterations. You don't necessarily need the supplement but the supplement does need the codex as it just changes a few options.

Would these supplements be in the FaQ? I mean are the supplements the stuff like how they changed the Noise marine blastmaster restrictions?

No. Think of the supplements as Expansion Packs for the Codex. They're in their own book and change how the "parent" Codex works, but you don't have to have them to play the army.

This is just my selfish wish, but I really hope they eventually make a Word Bearers Supplement. Either by itself, or bundled up together as a Traitor Legions Supplement.

themonk wrote:
The Death Guard (rather Plague Marines) are pretty much deployed by one battleship, the Terminus Est.

Typhus' fleet in ADB's Cadian Blood is 26 ships including up to 19 capital ships. Certainly some of those ships carry cultists and traitor Guard, but there seem to be substantial numbers of Plague Marines.

T

As a BL player I'm pretty happy about this, although I'm not that excited about buying a codex 70% the size of my already overpriced codex, for the same price :(

Really hope it focuses on the L&D element more than the current codex, I'm happy we got cultists but it seemed a bit of a rushed entry.

Excited about this release hoping for some new fluff for the BL. However I don't think this is the same though as getting an Ultramarine supplement, as the Ultramarines have six named characters and the BL only have one but I can see why some would rather see some other forces expanded, but IMO GW will probably do supplements for more of the armies later in the edition.

 Llamahead wrote:
Am I the only one hoping for a more Lost and the Damned style focus for this...........Hopefully it'll bring in mutants and traitors and the lesser followers which have been sadly absent for so long and maybe flesh out the cultists some more.

You're not the only one. But I think LatD would be better served with their own supplement though and not having to piggyback off of someone else with a few half-arsed entries. I want Queen to come on in my head with "I Want It All" when I open that supplement filled with mutants, traitors, cultists, witches and every other Warp-spawned abomination in the galaxy. *drools*

I think AL, IW, and NL have better need for supplements, but I am glad for BL players. Hope it is good.

And yes for the Catachans supplement. I have a friend that is itching to get his Tanith out of the box again with some good light infantry ambush rules.

If it is true that Armageddon is being represented with BT and Orks more, it would be nice to see a Steel Legion supplement (Fat chance I'm sure though).

 Goldshield wrote:

 Llamahead wrote:
Am I the only one hoping for a more Lost and the Damned style focus for this...........Hopefully it'll bring in mutants and traitors and the lesser followers which have been sadly absent for so long and maybe flesh out the cultists some more.

You're not the only one. But I think LatD would be better served with their own supplement though and not having to piggyback off of someone else with a few half-arsed entries. I want Queen to come on in my head with "I Want It All" when I open that supplement filled with mutants, traitors, cultists, witches and every other Warp-spawned abomination in the galaxy. *drools*

I think AL, IW, and NL have better need for supplements, but I am glad for BL players. Hope it is good.

And yes for the Catachans supplement. I have a friend that is itching to get his Tanith out of the box again with some good light infantry ambush rules.

If it is true that Armageddon is being represented with BT and Orks more, it would be nice to see a Steel Legion supplement (Fat chance I'm sure though).

Aye, I find the focus on Armageddon quite amusing when GW so recently axed the Steel Legion. Some might like to hope they'll be re-released in plastic, but GW would likely view that as stepping on FW's aesthetic toes, and again, GW does not like money.

 Zweischneid wrote:


If GW sticks to this template, a World Eater Supplement would be a good fit. It would feature (first) fluff, (second) new missions and (third) some rules that allow you to re-enact the First Armageddon Battle.

Well, when you put it like that...

I got a pretty decent size Black Legion army. But the codex is a bit lackluster. Not a lot of different build options when going against competetive Eldar, Tau, Dark Angels.

Would the new supplement include new point cost for units? or maybe new units?

I hope for new all plastic Oblits and Havocs :-) would make me a happy little spawn

Lasse Nielsen wrote:
I got a pretty decent size Black Legion army. But the codex is a bit lackluster. Not a lot of different build options when going against competetive Eldar, Tau, Dark Angels.

Would the new supplement include new point cost for units? or maybe new units?

I hope for new all plastic Oblits and Havocs :-) would make me a happy little spawn

I sincerely doubt it. The Eldar and Tau supplements don't seem to have any different points values, and they didn't get extra new models released alongside them. They're more of a FOC reorganization and some different Warlord Traits/psychic powers with some fluff and art.

E: Also this talk of Armageddon and Steel Legion makes me really, really wish GW would release plastic Steel Legion along with their own supplement. I know that's not happening anytime soon (if ever) but man would I be all over that.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Aye, I find the focus on Armageddon quite amusing when GW so recently axed the Steel Legion. Some might like to hope they'll be re-released in plastic, but GW would likely view that as stepping on FW's aesthetic toes, and again, GW does not like money.

Of course, once upon a time, much like Marines, the Imperial Guard all wore the same uniform in different colours. Given the retro focus of 6th edition, this would be a perfect time to re-introduce Steel Legion using Cadian models...

 Goldshield wrote:

 Llamahead wrote:
Am I the only one hoping for a more Lost and the Damned style focus for this...........Hopefully it'll bring in mutants and traitors and the lesser followers which have been sadly absent for so long and maybe flesh out the cultists some more.

You're not the only one. But I think LatD would be better served with their own supplement though and not having to piggyback off of someone else with a few half-arsed entries. I want Queen to come on in my head with "I Want It All" when I open that supplement filled with mutants, traitors, cultists, witches and every other Warp-spawned abomination in the galaxy. *drools*

I think AL, IW, and NL have better need for supplements, but I am glad for BL players. Hope it is good.

And yes for the Catachans supplement. I have a friend that is itching to get his Tanith out of the box again with some good light infantry ambush rules.

If it is true that Armageddon is being represented with BT and Orks more, it would be nice to see a Steel Legion supplement (Fat chance I'm sure though).

Actually, what LatD should be is a supplement for CSM & IG. Combining the two to allow for various trained militia groups and mutants, but at the same time allowing for things like the Blood Cult's well trained army.

What I have heard is that these supplements are going to start to include a micro-release of one or two models. These will not be brand new units/characters, but replacement "kits" for existing models. Basically, it will be a way to generate buzz around kits that are being updated and keep armies feeling fresh without needing to add something totally new.

Wait. Wait. Wait.

Black Legion? For real? Ugh.

Let's see...they could have done...

Siege Army Iron Warriors.
Terror Striking Night Lords
Zealot Word Bearers
Infiltration and Sneaky Alpha Legion

All of which have a hell of a time being represented with the current Chaos Codex.

They could also have done something for the Red Corsairs (using some Imperial kit to show their defection was only recent) and added flavour there.

But instead we get...

The Legion the Codex itself is supposed to be able of representing with no form of counts-as or stretches of imagination...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Wait. Wait. Wait.

Black Legion? For real? Ugh.

Let's see...they could have done...

Siege Army Iron Warriors.
Terror Striking Night Lords
Zealot Word Bearers
Infiltration and Sneaky Alpha Legion

All of which have a hell of a time being represented with the current Chaos Codex.

They could also have done something for the Red Corsairs (using some Imperial kit to show their defection was only recent) and added flavour there.

But instead we get...

The Legion the Codex itself is supposed to be able of representing with no form of counts-as or stretches of imagination...

Actually the funny thing is you CAN'T run how it is supposed to be, seeing as you should be able to take all cult troops without needing a lord (Seeing as they have all the cults and is undivided). You cannot do that, and so they actually do have a weird thing that allows them.

But... But... Why?

Black Legion?

BLACK LEGION!!!!

They are completely vanilla CSM. That is like having a Cadian supplement for the IG codex, or an Ultramarines supplement for SM.

Seriously! They could have done any other legion, but black legion. Death Guard, great, Word Bearers, awesome, World Eaters, cool, Lost and the Damned even. A mutants and renegades supplement would be great.

I just don't understand this. Hopefully this is a troll

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Wait. Wait. Wait.

Black Legion? For real? Ugh.

Let's see...they could have done...

Siege Army Iron Warriors.
Terror Striking Night Lords
Zealot Word Bearers
Infiltration and Sneaky Alpha Legion

All of which have a hell of a time being represented with the current Chaos Codex.

They could also have done something for the Red Corsairs (using some Imperial kit to show their defection was only recent) and added flavour there.

But instead we get...

The Legion the Codex itself is supposed to be able of representing with no form of counts-as or stretches of imagination...

Actually the funny thing is you CAN'T run how it is supposed to be, seeing as you should be able to take all cult troops without needing a lord (Seeing as they have all the cults and is undivided). You cannot do that, and so they actually do have a weird thing that allows them.

And you want to pay $50 for that?

i just want my drop pods/dreadclaws, ffs.

 gigasnail wrote:
i just want my drop pods/dreadclaws, ffs.

Wow, now that you mention it if they added in drop pods that would make an all Chosen army potentially pretty interesting. I'm skeptical they'll add any new units, but I would love for CSM to finally have access to drop pods.

I'm really facepalming at "codex CSM is codex BL"

One character from BL, no BL cult troops in undivided armies. BL isn't 'vanilla' CSM.

They're might have been a misinterpretation here. They might have seen Black Templar coming and not Black Legion. Even Harry made a similar mistake once. He mentioned inner circle knights and assumed it was Black Templars. We all now know those knights were actually Deathwing Knights or models with the inner circle rule.

 Moopy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Wait. Wait. Wait.

Black Legion? For real? Ugh.

Let's see...they could have done...

Siege Army Iron Warriors.
Terror Striking Night Lords
Zealot Word Bearers
Infiltration and Sneaky Alpha Legion

All of which have a hell of a time being represented with the current Chaos Codex.

They could also have done something for the Red Corsairs (using some Imperial kit to show their defection was only recent) and added flavour there.

But instead we get...

The Legion the Codex itself is supposed to be able of representing with no form of counts-as or stretches of imagination...

Actually the funny thing is you CAN'T run how it is supposed to be, seeing as you should be able to take all cult troops without needing a lord (Seeing as they have all the cults and is undivided). You cannot do that, and so they actually do have a weird thing that allows them.

And you want to pay $50 for that?

It's probably going to be a few other things as well, considering the huge fluff and all.

I'd probably prefer it if all supplements were down to 20-30$ anyways...

I hope this rumour is true, It would make sense as they are the biggest legion around in 40k, hopefully we would see more of these for others such as the red corsairs too

Please remember that there is nothing official here. These are behind the scenes discussions, and therefore must be considered rumors.

via a solid anonymous source on Faeit 212
The Farsight supplement will be a good example of what supplements will be to follow. It has more rules changes than the Iyanden one and expect the future supplements to provide more and more rules changes as well.

They're being released not just to match their parent dex, but also to gradually introduce the concept of supplements and is being closely monitored.

Currently, they're selling very well. but the vocal minority cries and complains about them, so there's been discussions and considerations about how to go ahead. These nay-sayers seem to have this idea that rules are intentionally left out of the main book, so as to sell a supplement later, which is not the case. They are done by a separate team who takes the intended stand alone codex and make a series of changes that identify an army in a particular (different) fashion. Anyone who has read the Iyanden book, would see how much hobby-oriented information goes into the fluff, etc to flesh out a particular faction so much more than a paragraph or half-page could do in a codex.

Supplements are currently being released "in order" of few rules to most rules changes. Iyanden had hardly any, Farsight Enclave has more, and so on. If a sourcebook has too many rules, then GW can rope it back. Rather than run this living experiment with books that need lots of rules, but offering only few so that it fits the model, GW picked the races that needed very few rules to start with and are working their way up (hence Black Legion and not say, Night Lords).

MarsNZ wrote:
I'm really facepalming at "codex CSM is codex BL"

One character from BL, no BL cult troops in undivided armies. BL isn't 'vanilla' CSM.

I totally agree with this. I think this is because BL are on the front of model boxes. Plus the whole Horus thing might make non-chaos fans feel this way. I don't know. I am looking forward to maybe starting a new BL army.

A little look into why supplements are being released the way they are...thanks faeit


http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/07/codex-supplements-farsight-enclave-and.html#more

 Pwn'd You wrote:
A little look into why supplements are being released the way they are...thanks faeit


http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/07/codex-supplements-farsight-enclave-and.html#more

Just posted it two post above...

hah ooops well now more people will hopefully see it

Funnily enough i was looking through the old codex (3rd edition i believe) and although i cannot comment on it being balanced (didn't play much back then), it look amazing!

All those deamonic upgrades (take enough and THEN you become a DP). I forgot how many options you had. Remember the Kai gun for example!

I know a lot of people liked that book because it had pages relating to certain armies. I was more impressed with what it offered besides that to create some pretty cool armies (and conversion ideas since it was more liberal with the upgrade options!)

I know its been said before but if they just did that for the actual (rather lackluster) 6th Ed book i would have been much happier. But what the hell.. I'll take anything that will give my Chaos force a shot in the arm. Just please give us someway of moving troops up the field which isn't going to blow up if you look at it (Rhino) or costs us an arm and a leg (LR), pretty please!

Zanderchief wrote:
I know a lot of people liked that book because it had pages relating to certain armies. I was more impressed with what it offered besides that to create some pretty cool armies (and conversion ideas since it was more liberal with the upgrade options!)

Well of course. It allowed you to make a Chaos Army and tailor it to fit pretty much any flavour.

Then came the next one... *shudder*

Yea, 6th ed C: CSM really mutilated a lot of the options. I suppose that one could argue that 6th Ed C: CSM stopped being C: Black Legion for the simple fact that 6th Ed C: CSM can't be used to represent anything very well now.

As an aside, them choosing Black Legion because Black Legion has very few changes in the first place and they're trying to be conservative with supplements makes sense, I suppose. In that case, the whole "Black Legion would barely have any chances from C: CSM at all!" argument is easily refuted with "That's the point!"

HBMC was talking about the book before the current one actually... in comparison the 6th ed book actuall expanded things a little bit which goes to show how bad of a job they've done with the army for multiple editions.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
I know a lot of people liked that book because it had pages relating to certain armies. I was more impressed with what it offered besides that to create some pretty cool armies (and conversion ideas since it was more liberal with the upgrade options!)

Well of course. It allowed you to make a Chaos Army and tailor it to fit pretty much any flavour.

Then came the two after it... *shudder*

Minor edit, but important.

6th is lets say 30% better then 4th ed codex and 50% better then the 3rd Ed codex( the Jervis one, not the 3.5 Haines dex).

Funny enough if you wanted to give Tank hunter to a whole Zerker army, you could, din't have much use out of it, but the Veteran competences where another layer of fine tuning in this experimental book.

Experiment wich led to the 4thh Ed Sm codex with their Chapter traits, wich imo, was one of the best, without the need for Special Characters to make a specific chapter, you took one Major Trait, one Minor and a Minor or Major disadvantage.

Example you could Take a Major trait that permitted all your Sergeants to be equiped with narthecium( at the time the narthecium din't give FnP to whole squads, only negating ONE wound per phase), a Minor was to permit all the models of the army to exchange their bolters for Bolt pistols and CCW, and a Major disadvantage was that you could'nt take more then 1 LR/Predator or Whirlwind.

their where like 9 Major traits, 12 Minors and 9 Disadvantage (Major and Minor iirc), HQ and Elites could take Veterans Skills( the same ones as the CSM at the time, excepte CSM could take them for the whole army "10.000 years of war Veterans" rule...)

But i go a bit too much on memory lane and off topic.

The trait system was utter rubbish. Not being able to take Terminators is only a drawback if you wanted to take them in the first place, otherwise you're just getting free benefits. The choices need to be meaningful.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 marrowick wrote:

KaryudoDS wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
How exactly do supplements work?

They literally supplement what's in the army codex. The Eldar supplement for instance has new Warlord traits and some FoC alterations. You don't necessarily need the supplement but the supplement does need the codex as it just changes a few options.

Would these supplements be in the FaQ? I mean are the supplements the stuff like how they changed the Noise marine blastmaster restrictions?

No. Think of the supplements as Expansion Packs for the Codex. They're in their own book and change how the "parent" Codex works, but you don't have to have them to play the army.

Are there any supplements out currently? Where do I find them online? How much do they cost?

does being CIA like involve no supplements?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The trait system was utter rubbish. Not being able to take Terminators is only a drawback if you wanted to take them in the first place, otherwise you're just getting free benefits. The choices need to be meaningful.

I wouldn't go as far as 'utter rubbish' by any means. The system was good, they just included too many 'disadvantages' that really weren't. The lamest being the 'no allies' disadvantage, in am edition where Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were the only allies you could take anyway, and most Marine players didn't.

The customisation allowed by the traits system though was awesome.

 marrowick wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 marrowick wrote:

KaryudoDS wrote:

 marrowick wrote:
How exactly do supplements work?

They literally supplement what's in the army codex. The Eldar supplement for instance has new Warlord traits and some FoC alterations. You don't necessarily need the supplement but the supplement does need the codex as it just changes a few options.

Would these supplements be in the FaQ? I mean are the supplements the stuff like how they changed the Noise marine blastmaster restrictions?

No. Think of the supplements as Expansion Packs for the Codex. They're in their own book and change how the "parent" Codex works, but you don't have to have them to play the army.

Are there any supplements out currently? Where do I find them online? How much do they cost?

There is one supplement currently available, soon to be 2. Currently available is Iyanden for Codex:Eldar, either as an iBook or a hardcover from Games Workshop directly. Prices are comparable to full codexes. Farsight Enclaves for Codex:Tau Empire is due to release on the 20th in digital formats, and significantly later in hard cover.

The Black Legion supplement has been spotted in the digital releases section of the August White Dwarf:

Listed is:
- Definitive Background for the Black Legion
- Detailed Timeline of major historical battles and events
- Additional rules (to lead your forces in a Black Crusade)
- Miniatures Gallery
- Reference for special rules and Wargear

Source: http://natfka.blogspot.nl/2013/07/the-black-legion-is-here-digital.html

Wow. The disappointment is still strong.

Showcase gallery fully of miniatures painted up for the 3.5 Codex release along with some stuff that crept in with the horrible, horrible 4th/5th edition codex (you can tell which is which by the fact they have different bases - wtf GW, wtf). Calling it now.

Meh. We'll see what it contains. Unless it gives options for an old Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus based Blackwing/Justaerin force it'll be somewhat...meh.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Wow. The disappointment is still strong.

Showcase gallery fully of miniatures painted up for the 3.5 Codex release along with some stuff that crept in with the horrible, horrible 4th/5th edition codex (you can tell which is which by the fact they have different bases - wtf GW, wtf). Calling it now.

Meh. We'll see what it contains. Unless it gives options for an old Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus based Blackwing/Justaerin force it'll be somewhat...meh.

It's the same format as the last two supplements.. What were you expecting?

I'll be buying that Codex for sure, and a Black Legion force to follow!

So, now instead of waiting for a year, you can wait for two until your FOM codex comes out ala Necrons.

Sure wish they would just shore up the game and come out with updates per every couple of months and keep the game going, instead of this change the game every year and expect it to continue.

I see this as just another reason for a price increase.

If anything, GW you are predictable.

 Grot 6 wrote:
So, now instead of waiting for a year, you can wait for two until your FOM codex comes out ala Necrons.

Sure wish they would just shore up the game and come out with updates per every couple of months and keep the game going, instead of this change the game every year and expect it to continue.

I see this as just another reason for a price increase.

If anything, GW you are predictable.

What are you even saying here? What does it contribute to anything? What does this have to do with flavor of the month codices coming out, and with what frequency? Your post makes absolutely no sense in any context, and just sounds like echo chamber whining for the sake of echo chamber whining. Please, share any "Finecost" or "Finecrap$t" jokes you have while you're at it, they're not tired yet either!

Also, I'm pretty sure new codices every couple months qualifies as "updates every couple of months" of some sort. The game itself changes every five years, maybe more. In other words, think before you post.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Please remember that there is nothing official here. These are behind the scenes discussions, and therefore must be considered rumors.

via a solid anonymous source on Faeit 212
The Farsight supplement will be a good example of what supplements will be to follow. It has more rules changes than the Iyanden one and expect the future supplements to provide more and more rules changes as well.

They're being released not just to match their parent dex, but also to gradually introduce the concept of supplements and is being closely monitored.

Currently, they're selling very well. but the vocal minority cries and complains about them, so there's been discussions and considerations about how to go ahead. These nay-sayers seem to have this idea that rules are intentionally left out of the main book, so as to sell a supplement later, which is not the case. They are done by a separate team who takes the intended stand alone codex and make a series of changes that identify an army in a particular (different) fashion. Anyone who has read the Iyanden book, would see how much hobby-oriented information goes into the fluff, etc to flesh out a particular faction so much more than a paragraph or half-page could do in a codex.

Supplements are currently being released "in order" of few rules to most rules changes. Iyanden had hardly any, Farsight Enclave has more, and so on. If a sourcebook has too many rules, then GW can rope it back. Rather than run this living experiment with books that need lots of rules, but offering only few so that it fits the model, GW picked the races that needed very few rules to start with and are working their way up (hence Black Legion and not say, Night Lords).

If this is true then we can expect to see Codex: Flesh Tearers.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Since the Black Legion is pretty much the ONLY legion that still operates in some form or shape in the 41st Millennium as writing by the "history-rundowns" of GW studio-publications go, it is arguably the only Legion that would make sense for a supplement, especially for an "historical-missions-type"-supplement similar to Iyanden.

All other legions are either entirely disbanded (World Eaters), better known for their ex-members who are at odds with the actual (remnants of the original) Legion, than the Legion itself (Thousand Sons) or "represented" as a Legion in 40K with minuscule groupings from Black Library/Forge World publications that barely have enough members for a 5-man tac squad (Night Lords).

A Black Legion supplement, arguably, could re-create a Black Crusade or some similar event of Abaddon's more recent 40K history in a series of consecutive missions much like Iyanden did the pre-Tyranid, fight-the-Tyranids, post-Tyranids story-arc for Iyanden.

Still would've vastly preferred Red Corsairs... oh well.

Not one to argue but what about my Word Bearers?

Yeah!

Bring it on!!!

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
So, now instead of waiting for a year, you can wait for two until your FOM codex comes out ala Necrons.

Sure wish they would just shore up the game and come out with updates per every couple of months and keep the game going, instead of this change the game every year and expect it to continue.

I see this as just another reason for a price increase.

If anything, GW you are predictable.

What are you even saying here? What does it contribute to anything? What does this have to do with flavor of the month codices coming out, and with what frequency? Your post makes absolutely no sense in any context, and just sounds like echo chamber whining for the sake of echo chamber whining. Please, share any "Finecost" or "Finecrap$t" jokes you have while you're at it, they're not tired yet either!

Also, I'm pretty sure new codices every couple months qualifies as "updates every couple of months" of some sort. The game itself changes every five years, maybe more. In other words, think before you post.

What do you mean "what do I mean"?

Step off.

50.00 a book, you can get 3 or four or so books, just to start with.

Other armies have 0.

I'll break it down for you barney style, I don't care.

Be more rude, next time, clyde. You didn't quite get insulting enough.

Sorry Grot 6, but Brother SRM has a point.
It seems like you are complaining just for the sake of complaining.
"So, now instead of waiting for a year, you can wait for two until your FOM codex comes out ala Necrons." This makes no sense. If they are releasing supplements in addition to codexes, then wouldn't that actually decrease the amount of time you have to wait for the FOM codex? And are you saying that is a bad thing? Because that is obviously a good thing, for players and for GW. Why wouldn't you want people to have the option to play the army they want?
"Sure wish they would just shore up the game and come out with updates per every couple of months and keep the game going, instead of this change the game every year and expect it to continue. " Again, what? Isn't that what they have been doing? For the last decade? I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong on this one man. Games Workshop has even increased the speed of updates. So again, why is that a bad thing? People have complained for a long time about the leisurely update pattern, and I'm sure that you were one of them. If you weren't, then you obviously aren't playing our game.
"I see this as just another reason for a price increase. If anything, GW you are predictable." Now this is where your bias shows. The supplements have had nothing to do with price hikes, and are completely optional with a decent amount of fluff. How is that predictable? It's not even remotely, not from GW. And as noted earlier, none of this really applies to the discussion on the black legion supplement in any constructive manner. You haven't even given GW a chance to impress you, you've already made up your mind that you are going to hate it. That's just plain ignorant, and a bad stance to to take. Nothing attracts more haters than haters my friend.

Personally, i don't play Chaos Marines, but they are pretty stupidly cool. So i hope the supplement reinforces the "go for the throat" mentality that the legion prized during the heresy. Special rules for hunting down characters or warlords perhaps? Also, i hope the fluff isn't more "chaos good, empire bad" stuff. we get plenty of that nowadays. Would be pretty sweet if Horus's giant mace thing was a relic you could take. That could open up a lot of modeling opportunities.

Oh good. I wasn't the only one that had no idea what he was trying to say.

So this has gone rather off topic.
The closer this gets the more excited I am. Black legion is a great start point, with the whole black crusade thing as well.

MarsNZ wrote:
I'm really facepalming at "codex CSM is codex BL"

One character from BL, no BL cult troops in undivided armies. BL isn't 'vanilla' CSM.

Yeah, it drives me crazy that people keep saying Black Legion are just vanilla Chaos. They are anything but. These are the Sons of Horus, legion of the "greatest" Primarch. The fact that they are one of the few unified traitor legions left, and easily the most influential, should show that they are not typical Chaos Marines.

I have to wonder if the focus will be on cult marines as troops or enhanced non-cult marines? I'd prefer the non-cult route since allowing cult marines as troops won't change anything, it will still be nothing but plague marines and heldrakes, which will take away from any future legion supplements. Maybe BL will have something like the Space Wolves codex has, where they can double up the HQ on the FOC.

I have a soft spot for the old Lunar Wolves and more info on the Black Crusade could be cool, just not $50 cool.
I do hope they put out a 1kSons book that actually fixes the unusable 1ksons troops and actually makes Tzeentch, you know, the masters of the warp and all, have powers that aren't completely useless.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I have a soft spot for the old Lunar Wolves and more info on the Black Crusade could be cool, just not $50 cool.

Farsight Enclave is available as a $32 epub/mobi so I expect the same for future supplements. Much more reasonable and accessible.

 Tyranidcrusher wrote:


Yeah!

Two posts below the one you quoted.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Yeah, it drives me crazy that people keep saying Black Legion are just vanilla Chaos. They are anything but. These are the Sons of Horus, legion of the "greatest" Primarch. The fact that they are one of the few unified traitor legions left, and easily the most influential, should show that they are not typical Chaos Marines.

BL are on the cover of most of the Chaos books (2nd ed, (3rd edition was some weird red terminator), 3.5, Eye of Terror, 4th ed, (6th ed was from that stupid new army)), and they're a large legion with a lot of variety so are easily represented with the codex- that makes them pretty vanilla from a game standpoint.

Every chapter or legion or whatever has something that makes them special, regarding background, but that doesn't mean they need special rules. Similarly, not having special rules doesn't mean the army isn't narratively special. As much as everyone hates the Ultramarines, in the setting the Ultramarines are everyone's faves, yet they don't get anything special representing it other than some characters.

As another example, I loved playing Death Guard for years and think they have a cool backstory, but that doesn't mean I think they need a supplement to represent them, for instance.

Codex Chaos does a decent job representing all of the chaos armies I know except:
-Night Lords (40k has very rarely done anything that represents hit and run/terror tactics very well, and it would probably require significant changes to the rules to do that for codex CSM)
-Red Corsairs (no access to later generations of imperial gear, and no allies patch... wish they had brought back Huron's old rules involving being able to take regular marines)
-Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors can all get decent representations of their forces through allies patching their lists.

Any word on when this is coming out??

2x210 wrote:
A Black Legion supplement, thats, thats something......

It's kinda like if Codex Space Marines gets a Ultramarines Supplement, but that being said...

exactly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Since the Black Legion is pretty much the ONLY legion that still operates in some form or shape in the 41st Millennium as writing by the "history-rundowns" of GW studio-publications go, it is arguably the only Legion that would make sense for a supplement, especially for an "historical-missions-type"-supplement similar to Iyanden.

All other legions are either entirely disbanded (World Eaters), better known for their ex-members who are at odds with the actual (remnants of the original) Legion, than the Legion itself (Thousand Sons) or "represented" as a Legion in 40K with minuscule groupings from Black Library/Forge World publications that barely have enough members for a 5-man tac squad (Night Lords).

Alpha Legion
Iron Warriors
Word Bearers
any of these would have been better and they the latter 2 fight as large warbands or legions

 Zweischneid wrote:

Still would've vastly preferred Red Corsairs... oh well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
While I'm ok with CSM supplements, Black Legion seems rather...pointless, the basic codex *IS* the Black Legion list.

This.

What the hell, GW?

WTH?

On BoLS there is a pic of WD, witch it mentions the Black Legion suppliment. It says go to the iBook store.

Since it also mentions the GW site, my guess is when the WD is Officially out, that is when it's for sale.

I would provide the link from BoLS, but not sure if it's allowed or not so on the safe side, I will not. Just go to BoLS forum for 40K rumours/news and you will see it there for those interested to see what little is shown.

Neronoxx wrote:
A Whole bunch of stuff, that pretty much boils down to= I don't understand why your having such issues with GW, they are the cat's meow and can do no wrong...

No.

Your reading too much into it and aside from putting on the rose tinted glasses, are missing the point.

GW is not going to impress me, anymore ever. They lost that ability when they decided that they wanted to be a "Model Company" and lay on the cooperation money grubbing for no other reason then they can, instead of making even a half hearted effort at putting out a solid, top notch war-game, that all I need to do is to get a box of army men, maybe a reasonable book with some interesting choices, and be able to play a game without getting into a drama-fest of epic proportions, mortgage your house, sell your wife off, and maybe a kid or two, just to afford to stay current. Pretty models? Wiz bang new lickies and chewies, sure they are, but that doesn't help us out here that have repeatedly and consecutively been taken for the proverbial ride on every and any way that they can. Stuffs too darned expensive, your now supposed to play apocalypse type games for a regular game, along with buy ungodly amounts of extras just to keep up with the jones. Haters being thrown around pretty loosely, so lets just ride that train.

I'm an unvalued consumer that paid his dues, played for over 10+ years and have come way past the point of being scatted on for pretty much anything they think they are doing that is an "Improvement." They didn't do anything new in over 5 years now, and aside from the bigger stuff, there aren't very many new things there that are going to help some kid outright just up and get in and play the game. 700.00+ is the price tag that I'll put out there generously as to what I'm looking at over in the back room. 3000 or so IG, got a 1500 pt Necron, and maybe a few others of the same. 3000+ Orks, that I really like, from RT era to newish AOBR stuff, that boils down to unused because the "Codex" is languishing in wishville land. Since the last couple of years, I've still got a couple of the armies, 1 of Tyranids, and 1 a small tau force that I painted up for laughs, and never really got into- because they pushed the sales of mecha stuff, rather then substance.

I'm going to go on out there and just say I paid my dues.

What have they done to impress me in the first place? I am the one that they disappointed on pretty much every turn except to predictably push for the hard sell and try to get just one more dollar for that much of a less of an effort.

They come out with a flavor of the month codex, instead of just up and shoring up issues, or just darn adding the new stuff and leaving the stuff that was fine. MY last codex was a case in point. Orks. I picked up the last Ork codex, and it ALMOST was as close to making me satisfied and being as happy as I could have been- Then they deep six the darned game in as fast as they could within that next year. Makes sense to you, I guess. ME? No, I don't think I was very happy at all, along with the extra curricular gak that came along with that. I am not a real fan of sixth edition, I think it sucks.

They just came out with the Chaos space marine codex and it was as uninspiring as usual. Unchaotic space marines is what one or two people that I was discussing on the look of them. The codex came out for the sake of pimping the very same... FLAVOR OF THE MONTH armies that GW ,as they always flood the market, until the very next one, where they repeat the process. They aren't even trying anymore, and aside from a few lickies and chewies, They do every thing they can to just pimp sales, and dictate you to go buy new stuff.

The fliers still suck, by the way. They haven't even fixed that yet. BUT you need to go out and get yourself a gaint gak flavored cake, to go with your "New" army... ies.

" ... If they are releasing supplements in addition to codexes, then wouldn't that actually decrease the amount of time you have to wait for the FOM codex? And are you saying that is a bad thing? Because that is obviously a good thing, for players and for GW. Why wouldn't you want people to have the option to play the army they want? "

They already had the supplement. It didn't, nor does it need a 75.00 hardbacked book.

Now you buy it for another 75.00. Seventy five bucks. Along with the 50.00 fifty bucks for Chaos codex, and more then likely the "New chaos one." A, B, or C... ( because you know, you don't just have the one chapter of chaos out there...) Then theres the demons, that we won't even start with. OR the ten + unit of grot cultists, that are just generic cannon fodder, that you still can't buy in packs of 10, ....

That is along with the ... "New Templates" "New Cards" "New Lickies and Chewies" specific to Apocalypse... How and again, is this a good thing? feth it.... 50.00, 75.00, 25, 30, 15.00, 15.00, maybe GET CUTE FOR 115.00, THEN The supertanks... for not 80.00, not 100.00, but over 140.00.

I played IG, by the way. My armies have around 100+ guys to begin with. Painted them over the space of 8+ years. 100+ is on the low side, I have three plus or so that don't have a use anymore.

On and on you both go, and where you stop-- you both just don't. Instead, you resort to "haterz gonna hate", or some other lame meme, and try to degrade my position for no other reason then your a clever child.

My issues with GW withstanding- You make less sense then you claim I did.

To the both of you two kool kidz, I say- GW can impress, but chooses not to. They have not shorn up the game, all they do is wait long enough, crank out another higher priced starter set and promise to do better, next codex/ edition.

You say I'm ignorant? ( I should inject something clever in here and counter insult you two chones, or something, but the point would be lost on you.) I'm outright justified in my disappointment, and Your rather long drawn out presumptuous insult doesn't give you much room to maneuver.

Explain, aside from the rose colored glasses how you think that over 300+ additional spending makes a tabletop war-game "Improved"?

By the way, chief- that addition from earlier is up to the tune of over $465.00. Aside from the point of fact that you have to update your army if you want to stay current. 465.00, before you even start an army- Just to play a... Supplement.


You know the worst thing about it? I WANT to come in one day and say, "You know? GW has a pretty good game. I really enjoy the way that I can have a good time with it..."

Instead, almost to a T, I have to sit back and see how a bunch of bra salesmen have highjacked the game and turned everything I liked about it into something bad.

Whats wrong with- "Hey, want to play a couple of squad on squad actions, and maybe get out characters some advancements, and build on that?" OR- "We got some new units out for the new year, heres a couple of adds in PDF for you to slip into the codex that came out in the beginning of the year, enjoy!"

Lawn cutting money, or Mortgage the house, you decide.

That is one epic rant.

Anyways, do we have a date yet for the release?

Sisters....where art thou?

The WD's are getting ragged...

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

interesting , very interesting (strokes beard)

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

Can't they all get supplements...

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

I expect they'll appear in the allies supplement.

Maybe a new Ab's model god it needs one.

 aceface wrote:
Maybe a new Ab's model god it needs one.

The other two supplements haven't come with new models, and I don't see why this one would. Unless supplements are the focus for a month's releases, I doubt we'll see anything new. Now, if two or three supplements came out in one month somewhere down the line and they had new models taking up the typical 3 plastic kits, character blister, and Finecast dudes, that would be cool.

 Sasori wrote:


Can't they all get supplements...

I think there's gonna be plenty of supplements floating around. Depends which models they want to sell next Although I'm a bit worried about the 'supplement plague'. GW has been poor when it comes to keeping the full codexes updated and the armies balanced - now they start doing supplements that further muddy the waters.

 Grot 6 wrote:

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me

So basically your issue is that GW is the worst company in the world because they dont cater to your wishes? Aw schucks, i wish i was that special.
Seriously, if you need to post an entire long rant to "justify" why they can no longer impress you, then why are you here? For the sole need of letting everyone else know you dont enjoy the game?
Sure their prices are high. Too high, i wont even try and defend them there. But like it or not, they still release some of the nicest models to date on a regular basis. And guess what bub? A playstation 4 is $400 bucks. The games are $60. A game is roughly 5-10 hours long, and usually only interesting once or twice. I would rather pay $400-600 for a interactive hobby than a static one. And oh wait, the game companies still don't care about their audiences(largely.) Every 6-7 years consoles rotate as well. Magic the gathering rotates EVERY YEAR. you usually don't hear them complain about it.
I'm not white knight for GW. All i'm saying is, times are changing. Day 1 DLC works, its why they do it.
And a supplement is not $75. I have no idea where you got that number. The hardbacks are $50 and the digitals are $33.
TLDR; Grot 6: other people than you exist in this world, and a company will never cater to an individual customer. I sorely hope you realize this.

I never understood why people come to a forum page about a GW product to tell everyone how they don't like GW.
Black Legion FTW!

I don't really see how the Black Legion warrant a codex of their own. As well as being the generic Chaos marine paint scheme for some time, alongside artwork and fluff. They don't do anything that cannot be done with the Chaos marine codex, nor are they really unique in any way. I wouldn't say however any of the Chaos legions really needs an expansion however.

Unsure whether I'll pick this up.

Hopefully it gives the background in sufficient detail, and doesn't pretend that the 13th Black Crusade hasn't happened. Info presented from the point of view of Abadon's trusted lieutenants- the Triad, would be awesome.

I think I'd be disappointed if most of the book dealt with the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. I'm interested in the post-Heresy Black Legion, not 30K.

 pretre wrote:
Thanks for the link. Also amusing that the tracker is linked.

It is, but I'd like to see more of that rather than anonymous sentences. I clicked the link, Control-F searched the page for "Pone", looked at his record... 18 True, 2 Partially True, 0 False! Means, I am paying attention to this

Seems pretty open-and-shut given the picture in the OP of the white dwarf page, too.

I'm still deciding on the color scheme of my pointy marines. Will see what these guys bring to the table and if my current collection fits in

I may just need too start a pre heresy army.

I've got all my Sons of Horus just waiting for some kind of jolt of life to the codex so they can see some table action.

I still can't really take any guesses as to what this list is going to offer. It says so you can run a black crusade army. I hope it's not simply that "all cult units are troops" and that there is something more meaningful to it than that.

I love Rumor Telephone.

Original:

Pwn'd You wrote:I also spoke to Jeremy vetock and he said he wants and is pushin for a fallen angels supplement as well as other dark angels supplements

Natfka's:

via a Reader here at Faeit 212 wrote:
Jeremy Vetock announced at games day that there will definitely be a fallen supplement coming, however we dont know if this is for DA or CSM.

So, after reading through the thread, there seems to be a point that most of my fellow CSM players have missed: the current dex ISN'T meant to be BL centric. Previous offerings? Absolutely, but that's the trouble here, everybody seems to view the present codex through a 5th edition (and earlier) lens.

The present codex, as it stands, is meant to resemble the fractious nature of the piles of CSM warbands floating about, generally being threats to smaller portions of space.

What evidence do I have to support this heinous claim, you ask? 2 points, actually: Marked Lords (and a sorcerer for Tz/1KS, hereby lumped into that group for simplicity's sake) and Cultists. Chaos lords bearing an appropriate mark unlock their patron god's cult marines as troops, instead of simply allowing the cult marines to be troops out of the gate. From my reading of the book's subtext and layout, this suggests the very real probability that those Khorne Berzerkers, hanging out with those Deathguard Plague marines and their boss, are there because they have something to gain from being there, as opposed to being all buddy-buddy without a solid, fluffy reason.

Next, we have Cultists, the cheap bullet sponges and plentifully availible for corruption on any world your warband happened to land on, as opposed to being well-trained guardsmen in fetish gear. Top this off with the fact that ANY of the gods can mark your lowly stack of meat shields for whatever reason, and you start to see that the book covers whatever they can dredge up, and not much else.

Dronze wrote:
So, after reading through the thread, there seems to be a point that most of my fellow CSM players have missed: the current dex ISN'T meant to be BL centric. Previous offerings? Absolutely, but that's the trouble here, everybody seems to view the present codex through a 5th edition (and earlier) lens.

The present codex, as it stands, is meant to resemble the fractious nature of the piles of CSM warbands floating about, generally being threats to smaller portions of space.

What evidence do I have to support this heinous claim, you ask? 2 points, actually: Marked Lords (and a sorcerer for Tz/1KS, hereby lumped into that group for simplicity's sake) and Cultists. Chaos lords bearing an appropriate mark unlock their patron god's cult marines as troops, instead of simply allowing the cult marines to be troops out of the gate. From my reading of the book's subtext and layout, this suggests the very real probability that those Khorne Berzerkers, hanging out with those Deathguard Plague marines and their boss, are there because they have something to gain from being there, as opposed to being all buddy-buddy without a solid, fluffy reason.

Next, we have Cultists, the cheap bullet sponges and plentifully availible for corruption on any world your warband happened to land on, as opposed to being well-trained guardsmen in fetish gear. Top this off with the fact that ANY of the gods can mark your lowly stack of meat shields for whatever reason, and you start to see that the book covers whatever they can dredge up, and not much else.

Interestingly enough, that might be why C:SM is getting an ultramarines supplement, to get away with having a "Main Dex" being represented by a legion/chapter.

Is this supposed to be coming out tomorrow, as in on the 1st?

 Rippy wrote:
Is this supposed to be coming out tomorrow, as in on the 1st?

No, gw releases new products on saturdays and since it is not up for pre order already i presume it will be released on 10th.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

also from Faet212

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:
Just over half the space marine chapters of the first founding will receive a supplement.

So on the IoM side we already have BA, DA, and SW. Which means there are 5 loyalists
For chaos there are 9 legions.
What do you be over half means 10, and those 10 are 5 loyalist(all of them) and 5 chaos legions(non cult)
So:
Salamanders
Raven Guard
White Scar
Imperial Fist
Ultramarines
Black Legion
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors
Alpha Legion
Night Lords

Honestly I dont know anything about Raven Guard and I thought IF were basically codex marines in yellow but they will probably get supplements.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

Raven Guard theoretically have codex organisation, but don't operate in a codex fashion. Companies operate more or less independently, and they emphasise stealth and rapid, overwhelming strikes against the weak points of an opposing army.

Personally, I've found the BA codex has allowed me to field what I felt was a representative RG force, I don't want to speculate overmuch, but scouts, infiltration, fast vehicles and ASM squads as troops could very well feature.

 azreal13 wrote:
Raven Guard theoretically have codex organisation, but don't operate in a codex fashion. Companies operate more or less independently, and they emphasise stealth and rapid, overwhelming strikes against the weak points of an opposing army.

Personally, I've found the BA codex has allowed me to field what I felt was a representative RG force, I don't want to speculate overmuch, but scouts, infiltration, fast vehicles and ASM squads as troops could very well feature.

and White Scar also emphasise rapid overwhelming strikes

and DA ravenwing also emphasise rapid overwhelming strikes


I concede I might just be ignorant about this stuff.

Which by their very definition you can't play in Warhammer 40K which tries (but doesn't always succeed) in balancing forces

so unless supplements allow 'crazy stuff' their signature styles are a no no

Neronoxx wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me

So basically your issue is that GW is the worst company in the world because they dont cater to your wishes?

Take a look at Grot 6's post history, specifically in GW threads, Neronoxx.

Imposter101 wrote:
I don't really see how the Black Legion warrant a codex of their own. As well as being the generic Chaos marine paint scheme for some time, alongside artwork and fluff. They don't do anything that cannot be done with the Chaos marine codex, nor are they really unique in any way. I wouldn't say however any of the Chaos legions really needs an expansion however.

Exactly. The last codex was based on them and not much as changed with the newest one. So what, you'll be able to take all Cult Units as troops without a character. The armies are still going to look exactly the same because GW has no idea how to internally balance their game. Nobody will run Thousand Sons, Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

That's unfortunately what scares me too... I really wish this supplement would do something to give the codex a jolt but I don't think it's possible without changes to the core units.

Griever wrote:
Nobody will run ... Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

If you really think so...

Maybe there will be a character that allows Demons to be purchased out of the Daemons codex but count as Primary detachment troops?? -- That would be cool!!

Diablix wrote:

Griever wrote:
Nobody will run ... Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

If you really think so...

While he's wrong on the Noise Marines, he is right on the Bezerkers.

 Exergy wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

also from Faet212

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:
Just over half the space marine chapters of the first founding will receive a supplement.

So on the IoM side we already have BA, DA, and SW. Which means there are 5 loyalists
For chaos there are 9 legions.
What do you be over half means 10, and those 10 are 5 loyalist(all of them) and 5 chaos legions(non cult)
So:
Salamanders
Raven Guard
White Scar
Imperial Fist
Ultramarines
Black Legion
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors
Alpha Legion
Night Lords

Honestly I dont know anything about Raven Guard and I thought IF were basically codex marines in yellow but they will probably get supplements.

You forgot the Iron Hands. Don't feel bad, GW have as well, apparently

Bah, CSM got heldrakes. Why do they need anything else to help them?

COming from a Marines player with acces to 3++ wargear, its pretty funny...

I much prefer having a hard copy. I don't want to have to buy an Ipad version, but the lag time between digital and hardback is huge...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Diablix wrote:

Griever wrote:
Nobody will run ... Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

If you really think so...

While he's wrong on the Noise Marines, he is right on the Bezerkers.

While I agree that Khorne Berzerkers are IMHO overpriced, I saw both in real life and in this forum's battle reports people running them. And not just one in a million.
Noise Marines (I know you agree, I'm just speaking in general) are tied up with Plague Marines to be the best troop choice available to Chaos, depending on what you want/need. Sure Plague Marines are THE unit to defend objectives, but Noise Marines are a wonderful alternative, being cheaper and more versatile.

Fearless, with access to Feel No Pain, 3 different special Weapons that ignores cover (2 of them with AP3). Can be kitted and used as Assault, Counter-Assault, Mid-Range or Long-Range support based on how you need them to be. I'd kill to have an Eternal Warrior HQ choice (or even better some sort of special rule) that unlocks them as troop.

Said that, this is no place to talk about that. Can't wait to see what this supplement will offer. Just hope it will be at least slightly better than the previous two..

 Sasori wrote:
I much prefer having a hard copy. I don't want to have to buy an Ipad version, but the lag time between digital and hardback is huge...

Same here. This is why, as much as I like some of the idea of the new supplements (but my god the pricing scheme is just...no.) I loathe their current format. Sure, I appreciate them trying to move with the times - but when I go to an event or tournament I really don't want to lug along an ipad or e-reader that could get damaged, dropped or lost whereas a hard copy generally won't because it's larger, has a bit more weight to it and you're probably going to keep it in your hands that bit more.

re: this being equivalent to supplement: ultramarines. The supplement books are 98% fluff & pictures, & only 2% rules. They're about the fluff. With the current SM book, the fluff and art revolves around the Ultramarines. The codex cover is an ultramarine. The fluff is mostly from Ultramarine perspective. There are several Ultramarine special characters, and even a unique unit for ultramarines.

The same is not true for Black Legion in the CSM book. The cover art is not a Black Legionnaire. The Black Legion are described, along with the other legions, and the crusades are mentioned, but they aren't the primary focus of the book. Abaddon is there, but no other BL characters or units. The Black Legion isn't particularly associated with any of the new units. The biggest section of fluff is on a failed space marine crusade leading to dozens of new renegade warbands.

Yes, the Black Legion are more or less the generic face of their faction the way the Ultramarines are for theirs, but while the current codex: SM is very much a 'codex ultramarines', the same just can't be said for Black Legion and the current codex: CSM.


Since the supplement line so far has been primarily fluff and not rules, the Black Legion is actually a pretty good fit. They don't need much in terms of rules or models, but they do need a new injection of personality, which a book of fluff could give them. I mean, compare again to ultramarines. They aren't just 'generic, blank slate space marines', they've got their anti-tyranid thing, they've got their classical greek thing, they've got several well fleshed out personalities, they've got their ruling ultramar gimmick.

The black legion, ever since their ascendancy, have been lacking in that kind of personality, and if the supplement could add some in, then that would be fantastic, imo.


Iron Warriors or Night Lords might have been equally good choices, I suppose, not because they need extra rules to function, but rather because their particular gimmicks could help sell the newer CSM models - daemon engines, warp smiths, and maulers on the IW side; raptors and warp talons on the night lords end. But when the Legion that is supposed to be the face of the CSM faction in general is considered 'boring' by many, that seems to me to be something that warrants immediate attention.


As for the legions that do need extra rules, the cult legions in particular? Well most of them don't just need new rules, but new models & units, or in the case of 1k sons completely new rules for existing units. And because of the Chapterhous thing, none going to happen until GW has kits ready to go. I'd rather have to wait extra to get cult legions with updated cult rules and cult terminators and whatnot then get them first and not have the extra toys they need to function.

No, better for cult supplements to wait until the cult rules can be revived alongside new plastic cult boxes (with terminator conversion bits, maybe) & new plastic greater daemons, & maybe skullcrushers or the like.


The BL supplement is coming out with new new model releases, and maybe that's for the best that they're first then, because they don't need new models to function.

Hey Mali, Vesper here.
BnC is more often down than online these few months. It's getting annoying.

Hey, Vesper. Yeah, I wonder what the deal is this time. Hopefully nothing major.

 Rippy wrote:
I never understood why people come to a forum page about a GW product to tell everyone how they don't like GW.
Black Legion FTW!

Its not a phenomenon unique to GW. Visit any video game specific forum and you'll see the same thing. People who have made hundreds of posts on a Call of Duty website about how much they hate CoD and Activision. Heck, its one of the reasons GW shut down their own forum, because all it contained was page after page of hate. Its not that they truly hate the game or even the company that creates it. They are typically just mad about the newest version not catering to them (or removing something they used/abused).

Getting on a website about GW games and complaining about how the cost has just drove you away, and as a result, you are selling 4 armies totaling at 5K points each is beyond ridiculous, as it equates to saying, "I don't want to buy a couple of $80 models, so I'm selling the $10,000 in armies I've collected over the last 5-10 years." GW has ALWAYS been considered too expensive.

Anyway, back on subject. I personally think there is more to BL than what is represented in the CSM codex. In my opinion, I feel the CSM codex better represents the Word Bearers, with the abundance of cultists and daemonic units. Hopefully this codex supplement will expand on the generic HQ, giving them some kind of unique, chapter-specific rule kind of like C:SM chapter tactics. I'm not sure a true Black Legion army would even include cultists as troops, and I'm not certain Daemon Princes would be around either.

The Current CSM book has something for everyone, just not as many options nor as interesting ones as the 3.5 book had. But seriously:

BL: special character, options for mixed mark armies
Renegades: special character
Cult legions: special characters, option for troop cults
Alpha Legion: cultists
Iron Warriors: daemon engines, warpsmith
Word Bearers: apostles, allied daemons
Night Lords: new 'super raptor' warp talons.

Sure, a lot of that stuff isn't what particular CSM players might have wanted or been looking for. A lot of that wasn't really how the players of these subfactions thought about or defined them, even if it was how the 3.5 legion rules might have done so.

I'm not a big fan of the current CSM codex. I think it's not up to par with Kelly's other work. I think it shows a poor understanding of how the game rules have changed in 6e (ie: rhinos do not constitute a functional delivery system for assault-only infantry units like 'zerkers or possessed), and several units, rules, & options seem half baked, or ported without thought from either the previous CSM book or from Chaos Warriors in Fantasy without much thought to whether or why a given rule worked in its original context and how it might need to be adapted to CSMs in 6e 40k.

But it's not like the book is terrible, and it's not like it didn't at least try to give a nod to all the various and sundry chaos marine subfactions. It isn't codex: Black Legion, it's codex Chaos Space Marines. Maybe not the one we wanted, needed, or deserved, but that's still what it is.

When does this thing drop? I'm looking at getting some CSM allies for my daemons but I'm holding off for this supplement to see if I like the special things it brings over the regular dex. I've always loved the BL paint scheme, so this might just be a bonus for me.

still no word on release date. Best guess is third saturday of the month, like the farsight book, but there's an extra saturday this month, so maybe fourth saturday? And nothings saying it won't be the last day of the month, since the WD only said 'August'.

 kronk wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me

So basically your issue is that GW is the worst company in the world because they dont cater to your wishes?

Take a look at Grot 6's post history, specifically in GW threads, Neronoxx.

That was pretty cute. Not sure what your point is, except being intentionally trollish, but hey... Good job at that, I guess. You could try reading what I wrote, instead of being, you know.. a mutt?

 Malisteen wrote:
still no word on release date. Best guess is third saturday of the month, like the farsight book, but there's an extra saturday this month, so maybe fourth saturday? And nothings saying it won't be the last day of the month, since the WD only said 'August'.

And for the hardback version, it's rumoured to be released on october.

 Grot 6 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me

So basically your issue is that GW is the worst company in the world because they dont cater to your wishes?

Take a look at Grot 6's post history, specifically in GW threads, Neronoxx.

That was pretty cute. Not sure what your point is, except being intentionally trollish, but hey... Good job at that, I guess. You could try reading what I wrote, instead of being, you know.. a mutt?

To be fair, he was telling him to read what you wrote in previous contexts.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

To be fair, he was telling him to read what you wrote in previous contexts.

Thank you, ZebrioLizard, but there is really no reason to respond to Grot 6 when he gets on a roll. Him calling me a troll is deliciously ironic.

 Malisteen wrote:

I'm not a big fan of the current CSM codex. I think it's not up to par with Kelly's other work. I think it shows a poor understanding of how the game rules have changed in 6e (ie: rhinos do not constitute a functional delivery system for assault-only infantry units like 'zerkers or possessed), and several units, rules, & options seem half baked, or ported without thought from either the previous CSM book or from Chaos Warriors in Fantasy without much thought to whether or why a given rule worked in its original context and how it might need to be adapted to CSMs in 6e 40k.

But it's not like the book is terrible, and it's not like it didn't at least try to give a nod to all the various and sundry chaos marine subfactions. It isn't codex: Black Legion, it's codex Chaos Space Marines. Maybe not the one we wanted, needed, or deserved, but that's still what it is.

How is this even defensible? I know they have a need to be creative and try new things, but when they flat out ignore what their customers want, that's a dumb thing to do. It's a good way to lose fans in the long run.
I hope these supplements fix some of the many problems with the codex, but it honestly doesn't look like that's their intention. If its all fluff with only a page or two of new rules, that's just not enough to get me to play chaos again.

In the end, I haven't had a burning need to buy anything new for my CSMs-much like with my Tau. Its just my Tau got a better book than my Chaos did-and I think that's why I was so elated.

After the Chaos book dropped-I pretty much didn't have hope. I was expecting to get Cruddanced, and not Imperial Guard Cruddanced either.

And they now give me the ability to run the army I wanted to run ever since I started my Tau? Awesome.

I'm confused- I thought the most recent CSM codex was well received?
Bar one or two units, I thought it was a great product; every codex has the odd black swan, I mean how many Deathstrike Missiles do people regularly field?

Why are some hoping this supplement fixes things, when my interpretation of was that they gave increased options, more focused on the lore than internal balance?

 CadianXV wrote:
I'm confused- I thought the most recent CSM codex was well received?

Really? Not on Dakka

Newer players probably liked the new CSM codex if they only had the previous one to compare. But to make a long story short.

Horrible army wide rule that is neither fluffy for most of the legions nor competitive.
No Legion Rules. (That SM are getting if rumors hold)
No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)
No God Specific vehicle upgrades.
etc....

So many CSM players are hoping that the Supplements will fix these issues. Yes CSM is competitive but its not really reflective of the armys or playstyle that people have with CSM.

demontalons wrote:
Newer players probably liked the new CSM codex if they only had the previous one to compare. But to make a long story short.

Horrible army wide rule that is neither fluffy for most of the legions nor competitive.
No Legion Rules. (That SM are getting if rumors hold)
No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)
No God Specific vehicle upgrades.
etc....

Didn't khorne berzerkers have fnp during 4th ed?

MWHistorian wrote:How is this even defensible? I know they have a need to be creative and try new things, but when they flat out ignore what their customers want, that's a dumb thing to do. It's a good way to lose fans in the long run.

I didn't say it was the right way to go about things, I was just objecting to the notion that the book we have is already 'Codex Black Legion'. The black legion is present yes, but it's not not the primary focus, not of the fluff or of the rules. Especially when it comes to the new stuff, with the warpsmith being overtly aimed at iron warriors fans, the apostle at word bearers, and the warp talons at night lords.

It's not Codex: Black Legion, it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Not the one we wanted, but still. These accusations are as groundless as when bitter fans called the 4e book 'codex: renegades', and somehow convinced themselves that there would be a 'codex: legions' forthcoming. The book had six Chaos Legion special characters, had cult marines, daemon engines, heresy era wargear, and a total lack of the post heresy tech one would associate with more recent renegades, it was always meant to cover the chaos legions, just as this book was meant to cover more than black legion. It just didn't do so as well as we wanted.

I share your hope that these supplements will address some of the concerns, but there are a lot of problems built into this book that a supplement adding a couple minor rules or options, or pushing some existing options around, isn't going to help much.

CadianXV wrote:I'm confused- I thought the most recent CSM codex was well received?

Not particularly, at least not in the circles I travel in. There are a lot of additions that aren't fully thought out or just don't work so well, there's a lot of stuff that needed fixing that didn't get it, and there are a lot of rather reasonable options people have been begging for that did not appear, and the internal balance is still painfully off kilter. Running into off topic whining rant zone, but as long as we're waiting for new info on the supplement anyway, here's a list of some of the specific complaints I either have or hear frequently:

1) no cult terminators or HQs (outside of special characters). There's really no excuse for this, such options are pretty key to representing some fundamental chaos subfaction concepts. I can understand leaving other specialized cult offshoots for FW to do eventually (skullcrushers, noise marine dreads, etc), but these should have been there.

2) Cult units ported over largely unaltered, without apparent care to how they functioned or didn't function in the previous book, or how they might have changed given the new rules. Berzerkers, as a high cost melee infantry unit relying on rhinos to get to combat, suffered heavily - what was good about them before largely no longer works. Plague marines were and remain CSMs++, largely trumping basic chaos marines as an option, despite all the marks and flags available to the latter. Thousand Sons, already the worst of the cult units and largely unplayed last time, were changed only to nerf them.

3) Speaking of units that were bad before that are still bad now - Chaos Dreads & Possessed. Yeah, they were tweaked, but they needed more than that, they needed to be largely rebuilt from the ground up. Especially possessed, which have never been good, and which, like 'zerkers, were hit hard by the 6e changes which just don't support near-terminator-cost-but-only-marine-durability infantry speed melee units without assault transports. The damage is even more painful for possessed, who lack assault grenades and can't be made scoring, either.

4) Points values are all over the map. Plasma Pistols costing more than objectively better meltaguns on raptors. Raptors only three points less than basically-the-same-but-way-better bikes. Melee upgrades priced more heavily on melee leaning units than on 'shooty' units, resulting in supposedly shooty units doing both jobs better and cheaper. Overpriced Land Raiders and Defilers. The too-strong-to-be-reasonable-at-any-price Heldrake priced shockingly low. etc.

5) No legion rules. People didn't want much (that's a lie, people wanted tons, but I didn't want much), but a nod wouldn't have been hard. Loyalists seem to be getting this. Wouldn't had been an issue if there had been options for cult termies and HQs, and some more options for HQs in general instead of so many ideas getting sucked into the random rewards table.

6) no new transports. I can't emphasize this enough - in 6e the rhino does not cut it for melee units. As a melee-leaning marine faction, several CSM units are in dire need of a new delivery system to account for this, whether a new daemonic assault tank or just slapping a chaos spikey bits sprue in a storm raven. Likewise, chaos players have been begging for drop pods for years. It's supported by the fluff, doesn't need a new model (again, just toss a chaos vehicle sprue in the loyalist box), and would hardly take any page space. They don't even need the 'drop pod assault' arrive on the first turn rules, just let them roll reserves as normal, so long as the option is there.

Adding a mid price assault transport and drop pods would push several units from 'bad' or at best 'sub par' to 'good' or at worst 'decent': dreadnoughts, possessed, chosen, berzerkers, thousand sons. It would do a lot for chaos marines and melee armed noise marines as well, which aren't terrible now but wouldn't be broken with such options either. It would have allowed a lot more variety among effective CSM lists, and much better representation of their fluff and supposed fighting style on the table in 6e. Rules-wise, CSMs were crying out for new transport options, and yet instead we get...

7) The dinozords. Well, that's not fair, I like the fiend model more in person, if with a bit of conversion work. And they're not awful in the game. They aren't bad, but they do make me bitter, because they're a pair of AV12 walkers, in a faction that already had two AV12 walkers we didn't use to begin with and still don't use now. Again, the fiends aren't bad, they're redundant. A waste of design space that might be forgiven as an indulgence if the faction didn't have such gaping holes that remain unfilled.

8) The Heldrake - often touted as the book's saving grace, the heldrake is, in my mind, among the worst of its sins. Stupidly overpowered is still stupid. It invalidates several other options in the book, whether by crowding other fast attack units out of their slots, or by handling medium infantry so well and so cheaply that overpriced, overspecialized AP3 options like raptors and thousand sons - units that were bad to begin with - serve no purpose what-so-ever, being as they are so badly outperformed even at their sole area of expertise. Worse is the impact on the game at large, as the mere existance of the heldrake, especially in an edition that allows several factions to ally one in at minimal cost, by itself invalidates several army builds. I know players who refuse to take the field against me if I'm running even one of the damn things - which is fine, except for the fact that these are a crutch propping up the entire book, and going to battle without them on a regular basis really highlights the weaknesses of a lot of the other options.

9) Much as CSMs were crying out for new transport options in terms of rules - transports that could have been provided without even having to make new models - they were crying out for new marine infantry in terms of models. The basic CSM models have held up far less well than their loyalist tactical equivalents, the cult units - key units to the faction, thematically - are in an especially sorry state. Havocs are still a plastic/finecast hybrid kit. The bikes are and look ancient. We did get new raptors - which are great models, but we need our basic infantry marine models re-hashed badly. The DV chosen show just what's possible now, but in the process highlight just how dated the rest of the chaos line is by comparison. So it's not that what they added in models or rules is so awful, but there were things we needed that we still need that the new stuff has done nothing to address.

10) And then there's all the little things: minor stuff that's just like, wtf? Like, no teleport homers, when all our units had them before and deep striking terminators is supposed to be such an iconic thing for chaos? Or the warp talon's blinding deep strike, which is more likely to get them killed by a deep strike mishap than it is to actually blind anything at all? Or the ultimate chaos reward of becoming a daemon prince being a downgrade for most of our HQs, since the model loses all of its gear and options - even if they were options a prince would normally have access to like artifacts or psychic powers - before getting booted out of combat for the opponent to have a free turn shooting at you? Or the champions of chaos rule to begin with - forced challenges being a check on power of fantasy chaos characters - which are otherwise much stronger than their peers in other factions - while in 40k its a drawback with no advantage, since for the most part CSM champions and HQs are no more potent in melee than any other flavor of marine HQ? With the exception of daemon princes, which don't have the CoC rule anyway? Or we might consider the apostle - a rather pricey melee-only 2w HQ with few real options, who exists to hand out buffs that our units mostly already come with or can buy cheaper in other ways or get from taking a cheaper, 3w lord with more & better options. Or the deliberate refusal of synergy with our only battle brothers, the chaos daemons. Our characters cannot join their units or vice versa, special rules and items from both books are mostly written such that the other book can't use them, etc. Might as well have been 'allies of convenience'.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the 6e book is worse than the 4e book. It's much better than that. But the 4e book was so bland, skeletal, boring, and unbalanced internally that there's plenty of room to be much better and still not be great. And again, it's not about overall power levels. The 4e book wasn't lacking in overall power, if you spammed daemon princes, obliterators, and plague marines. The new book likewise can field perfectly functional lists - just leaning on drakes instead of princes, but still with oblits and plagues, likely minimizing other selections to free up points for allies. It's not about 'geeze I can't win', its frustration that the book seems to be working against me at every turn. That it only wants to run one sort of list, and throws a petulant fit every time I try to write any other sort of list. I'd gladly give up the heldrake and take a slight downgrade or points increase to other currently top units like plagues and bikes if we could have brought the remaining 2/3 of the codex up to functionality instead, and I'd gladly sacrifice the new daemon engine models if we could have gotten new plastic chaos marine infantry kits and stormraven & drop pod kits with spikey bits sprues in them. Again, not that what they added is terrible in and of itself, but it was done so blindly and arbitrarily and with such seeming disinterest and so little consideration for what the faction needed or its players wanted.


And again, I'm super excited for the Black Legion supplement, and CSM supplements in general, but I don't expect them to fix the complaints I have about the book. A supplement book isn't going to bring us new chaos marine infantry models (though I suppose the cult legion supplements could coincide with the release of new plastic cult units, if such were in the works already - but I haven't heard any indication that new cult models are on the way any time soon); it won't bring us re-considered rules for possessed or cults (though new cult rules in WD could coincide with new cult unit model releases if such ever saw the light of day - heck, they'd need revised WD rules if they actually wanted to sell a new thousand sons kit); and it won't bring us new transports, although GW could slap spikey bits in the marine drop pod box and add it to our book via WD whenever they felt like it.

So it's not like a lot of this stuff necessarily needs to wait for a new codex to be addressed. I just don't [i]expect[i] it to be addressed before then.

There are a lot of additions that aren't fully thought out or just don't work so well, there's a lot of stuff that needed fixing that didn't get it, and there are a lot of rather reasonable options people have been begging for that did not appear, and the internal balance is still painfully off kilter.

Sounds like every other 6th edition codex so far.

One could say that, I suppose. But the Tau and Eldar books just feel like they were trying a lot harder.

I haven't had as much time sitting and reading the DA book, but at first glance it at least seems more coherent. Yeah, the flier sucks. But they got new models for terminators and bikes, and are getting new models for tacs and vets with the upcoming space marine release. Their terminators have what they need to function in that they have a special arrival rule and plentiful teleport homers to work with, they've got troop bike and termie options, and the basic tacs aren't badly outclassed by other since they have very different prices and functions, etc. They interact well with their guard allies. There just seems to be more polish on them and more consideration into how the army works as a whole and what meaningful build variations players might want to run, and what rules I've seen in general seem to have had more thought and polish, even if the overall cheese level isn't as high, due to not having anything as broken as the heldrake.

But since I've already stated that I think the heldrake being so brokenly overpowered is a bad thing... Of course, once again we see DA being used as a test bed for idea that are then being done better by the basic space marine book right after. I get the impression DA would rather have followed the generic space marine codex rather than coming before them this time around, and probably with good reason. It's certainly something I could see getting disgruntled about.

Anyway, I agree that some of the vehemence of the negative reaction to the 6e chaos book was over the top, even from myself. I just wanted to explain how how CSM players came to be disappointed with their new book & the attendant releases, even though Chaos Marines, or heldrakes at least, have come to dominate the field since then, while, say, Tau players by contrast have at least seemed largely content with theirs.

 CadianXV wrote:
I'm confused- I thought the most recent CSM codex was well received?
Bar one or two units, I thought it was a great product; every codex has the odd black swan, I mean how many Deathstrike Missiles do people regularly field?

Why are some hoping this supplement fixes things, when my interpretation of was that they gave increased options, more focused on the lore than internal balance?

The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

 Exergy wrote:

 CadianXV wrote:
I'm confused- I thought the most recent CSM codex was well received?
Bar one or two units, I thought it was a great product; every codex has the odd black swan, I mean how many Deathstrike Missiles do people regularly field?

Why are some hoping this supplement fixes things, when my interpretation of was that they gave increased options, more focused on the lore than internal balance?

The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

It's not what people were hoping for, but anecdotal evidence that Chaos players are jumping ship is dubious.

It's a far better codex than what it replaced, though it relies too much on the Heldrake to be effective (haven't seen a Chaos army without one minimum for a long time). Half my local group has Chaos; there's more of them now than before 6th ed.

What i'd like to see is if the supplements can reduce the need for Heldrakes.

demontalons wrote:
Newer players probably liked the new CSM codex if they only had the previous one to compare. But to make a long story short.

Horrible army wide rule that is neither fluffy for most of the legions nor competitive.
No Legion Rules. (That SM are getting if rumors hold)
No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)
No God Specific vehicle upgrades.
etc....

So many CSM players are hoping that the Supplements will fix these issues. Yes CSM is competitive but its not really reflective of the armys or playstyle that people have with CSM.

It's almost like they produced a substandard codex in order for people to justify picking up the supplement for their own legion for a few extra bucks instead of creating a list with which you could make any legion with a few one line rules for cult terminators etc. I bet these supplements will fix these issues.

 Exergy wrote:

 CadianXV wrote:

The CSM codex has been the worst received of the 6th edition codexes and many many many people have decided to shelve or sell their CSMs

2007 called, it wants its post back. The new CSM codex isn't perfect, but it's leagues more interesting and fun to play than their previous one. I can usually see multiple sides of an argument, but the more people bitch and moan about the current CSM codex, the more confused I get. I like that book a lot. There are missed opportunities, but heaps more variety and good design decisions than the previous codex.

Column A: Focuses on bad, mitigates the good
Column B:Focuses on the good, mitigates the bad

as well as the entire spectrum in between.

Really just a difference of perspectives and approaches. As well as be different for different things.

I have to admit I fear to say this... But I am excited by the Black Legion supplement. Maybe my hopes are set too high, but I love the subtle tweaks (or not so subtle) that come with a supplement or mini-codex.

I'm just surprised we have literally no info at all beyond it exists and it's coming out.

i Wonder if a Black legion army using the supplement can be taken or take CSm codex units has battle Brothers like Farsight and Tau Empire detachements...

Would be interessting and funny...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm just surprised we have literally no info at all beyond it exists and it's coming out.

Infinitely shorter chain with a digital product, no enthusiast working in the printshop or warehouse to sneak a pic or share a few snippets.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm just surprised we have literally no info at all beyond it exists and it's coming out.

Well it only makes sense since it is a digital release initially, far less places for there to be leaks (even the original leak picture is on a printed wd )

edit: azrael made me sad :/

 MajorStoffer wrote:


It's not what people were hoping for, but anecdotal evidence that Chaos players are jumping ship is dubious.

It's a far better codex than what it replaced, though it relies too much on the Heldrake to be effective (haven't seen a Chaos army without one minimum for a long time). Half my local group has Chaos; there's more of them now than before 6th ed.

What i'd like to see is if the supplements can reduce the need for Heldrakes.

The general consensus where I live is that people won't buy anything until we start seeing legion supplements (which is quite fair). But you are right, the new book is a lot better than the old. It's just infuriating that it's what we're gonna be stuck with until the supplements roll around, if they ever do, while the rumors are that the Codex marines are getting it right off the bat. I like Black Legion, I think they're really cool, but as a Word Bearers player, it's kind of disheartening. At least we got the Dark Apostle back, but it seems like we're getting phased out

Ah well, hopefully the coming supplements have a lot going for them. It'll be interesting to see if they can make Thousand Sons competitive.

 illuknisaa wrote:

demontalons wrote:
Newer players probably liked the new CSM codex if they only had the previous one to compare. But to make a long story short.

Horrible army wide rule that is neither fluffy for most of the legions nor competitive.
No Legion Rules. (That SM are getting if rumors hold)
No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)
No God Specific vehicle upgrades.
etc....

Didn't khorne berzerkers have fnp during 4th ed?

It was in the "Gifts of Khorne" wargear list in 3.5, meaning it was only for characters. Some people mistakenly thought you could give them to regular squads, but this wasn't the case.

World Eaters could take Chosen of Khorne in the original 3rd edition codex with the Index Astartes rules, which were Elites Berzerkers with FNP.

And thus concludes our history lesson

demontalons wrote:

No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)

Not sure what the problem is there?

Nurgle getting FnP or extra Toughness never made sense. Ever had an infection? Poke it! It hurts more, not less. Diseased people go down faster if hit, not slower.

Slaanesh crazed-out and drugged-out people not feeling their wounds? I can get behind that.

 plompkin wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:


It's not what people were hoping for, but anecdotal evidence that Chaos players are jumping ship is dubious.

It's a far better codex than what it replaced, though it relies too much on the Heldrake to be effective (haven't seen a Chaos army without one minimum for a long time). Half my local group has Chaos; there's more of them now than before 6th ed.

What i'd like to see is if the supplements can reduce the need for Heldrakes.

The general consensus where I live is that people won't buy anything until we start seeing legion supplements (which is quite fair). But you are right, the new book is a lot better than the old. It's just infuriating that it's what we're gonna be stuck with until the supplements roll around, if they ever do, while the rumors are that the Codex marines are getting it right off the bat. I like Black Legion, I think they're really cool, but as a Word Bearers player, it's kind of disheartening. At least we got the Dark Apostle back, but it seems like we're getting phased out

Ah well, hopefully the coming supplements have a lot going for them. It'll be interesting to see if they can make Thousand Sons competitive.

I doubt 1K Sons will be competitive until Kirby sells off GW to Hasbro and the WotC designers take over. (Or sells it off to Mattel and we start desperately missing the days of Kirby.)

 Zweischneid wrote:

demontalons wrote:

No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)

Not sure what the problem is there?

Nurgle getting FnP or extra Toughness never made sense. Ever had an infection? Poke it! It hurts more, not less. Diseased people go down faster if hit, not slower.

Slaanesh crazed-out and drugged-out people not feeling their wounds? I can get behind that.

It's because they gain enough diseases that the pain becomes common enough that their bodies just adapt and don't feel it, Or necessarily, they just feel it all the time to the point they are dulled to pains presence. Considering some of them have organs hanging out of huge, festering wounds or dragging alongside them it seems that one of these has to be the issue. Same with the Toughness, they're organs seem to be dulled and bloated with festering pus to the point where they're bodies grow resistant to outside pain.

Also Slaanesh could have another reason. They feel the pain, but they love it so much they continue on anyways, a new sensation of blissful pain for He who thirsts.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Also Slaanesh could have another reason. They feel the pain, but they love it so much they continue on anyways, a new sensation of blissful pain for He who thirsts.

There are people who like pain.

 Zweischneid wrote:

demontalons wrote:

No intelligent path system.. (like Nurgle Terminators not having FnP but SLaanesh terms do?)

Not sure what the problem is there?

Nurgle getting FnP or extra Toughness never made sense. Ever had an infection? Poke it! It hurts more, not less. Diseased people go down faster if hit, not slower.

Slaanesh crazed-out and drugged-out people not feeling their wounds? I can get behind that.

There is nothing wrong with your logic. The point I think people are making is consistency. If you want slaanesh to have FNP because of their "crazy drug habits", then make it standard for noise marines instead of plague marines.

But clearly Phil Kelly had to NOT give FNP to nurgle because things like T5 terminators with FNP might be considered unbalanced to those poor imperial armies with their crappy terminators like grey knnights.

 Sidstyler wrote:

There are a lot of additions that aren't fully thought out or just don't work so well, there's a lot of stuff that needed fixing that didn't get it, and there are a lot of rather reasonable options people have been begging for that did not appear, and the internal balance is still painfully off kilter.

Sounds like every other 6th edition codex so far.

The only options in the Tau book that aren't so great are the Flyers. I've done well or above my expectations with everything else I've tried.

I suppose I am just accustomed to Nurgle having FNP, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make too much sense.

Out of all the cult marines, I think it would make the most sense for 1k Sons to have FNP.

The plague that creates plague marines drives a marine insane with pain and corruption, but also keeps them alive regardless of bodily function, like a zombie plague but for space marines. Eventually, the victim is driven to either off themselves, or beg nurgle for relief, which the gradfather grants not by taking away their ability to feel pain at all.

It isn't the disease, but the blessing of nurgle itself that grants plague marines FNP. Likewise, it isn't the corruption that increases their toughness, but the fact that they're basically zombies with no need for functioning muscles to move their bodies or internal organs and vascular systems to pump life through them.


And yeah, it could have been written differently. MoN could grant poison instead of extra toughness. And all the cults could justify fnp - zerkers and noise marines both canonically feel pain in battle as pleasure, and thousand sons are empty suits of armor that feel no pain at all. It would have been easy enough to introduce 'chaos armor' as power armor with FNP, and then just give it to all of the cult units by default. Honestly, the cult units in general really warranted a complete re-think from the ground up, but instead they were ported over from the last book with hardly any change or thought at all. Oh, well.

Anyway, it is annoying that our characters and terminators can't have the rules and upgrades associated with the cults. Hopefully the eventual cult supplements will rectify this, but it should have been in the book to begin with.