Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.
We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.
A 100lb monomolecular sword wielded by a superman capable of punching through tank armor with his bare hands is "conventional" how?
Context is everything.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....
Not everyone who serves Chaos gets "amped". In fact, the vast majority of those who serve Chaos don't get a damn thing except maybe a new tentacle growing out of their arse.
The guys who killed Dorn? Just peons on a ship.
The Dark Elves, er, Eldar... who took Khan? Not amped by Chaos at all.
Luther? Little if any Chaos-amping there. He's just a traitor.
Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.
We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.
A 100lb monomolecular sword wielded by a superman capable of punching through tank armor with his bare hands is "conventional" how?
Context is everything.
I didn't mention Rowboat's head getting nearly chopped the feth off by Fulgrim, that's unconventional.
Psienesis wrote: Not everyone who serves Chaos gets "amped". In fact, the vast majority of those who serve Chaos don't get a damn thing except maybe a new tentacle growing out of their arse.
The guys who killed Dorn? Just peons on a ship.
The Dark Elves who took Khan? Not amped by Chaos at all.
Luther? Little if any Chaos-amping there. He's just a traitor.
what...Luther was defintely amped by chaos when he defeated the lion, and even then....The Lion actually wounded him and could of killed him, but he refused and then Luther struck back
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....
I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....
I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.
i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind
Psienesis wrote:Do you not understand how this works? The Sister of Battle is protected through her faith in the God-Emperor of Mankind. Is Magnus stronger than the Emperor? Feth no. That's a known quantity.
You know who seems to have the Sisters' backs? The God-Emperor, Himself.
Granted, that is very much a matter of interpretation, depending on where you look.
FFG's RPGs for example do indeed mirror your opinion, as Acts of Faith there are clearly a divine power. Tech-Priests in those games can do similar tricks, such as magically causing his or her allies' ranged weapons to magically unjam.
GW's own books, on the other hand, allow a much less bright interpretation, where a Sister's only power comes from herself due to sheer self-deceit, and where a Tech-Priest gets nothing but a knowledge bonus.
As always, it's a matter of interpretation. Personally, I prefer the various religions in the setting to have no grounds, because just like with other Imperial propaganda everything looks even more bleak once you consider that it's all just superstition and wishful thinking.
The same applies to the Primarchs, of course. In some Black Library novel, they may survive a Titan's plasma cannon, whereas in GW's own material Alpharius was almost gunned down by some human bridge officers' small arms upon his first meeting with Horus, and Rogal Dorn died during an attempt to board some random Chaos cruiser. It comes down to whether one prefers to see the setting as some sort of superhero comic, or rather a particularly lethal, dystopian environment where guns can kill anything, in turn making a life - any life - a bit less meaningful, because faceless numbers become more important than individual heroes.
That being said, GW's Angron (in Daemonprince form) is 500 points ... that's at least 3 squads of Sisters!
LightKing wrote:ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)
Funny, that is how I would describe the silliness in the Horus Heresy novels.
Perfect example of what I meant when I said earlier about the setting allowing for a lot of overlapping yet different interpretations.
ThePrimordial wrote:Scientifically they aren't due to the presence of two of every organ [...]
In GW's version of the setting, a Marine has a secondary heart and a third lung. That's it.
Then again, it is possible that you've read something different elsewhere, I suppose. This is 40k, after all.
ThePrimordial wrote:Bolter rounds dont do gak to power armor and in the HH marines take Bolter wounds like normal gun wounds. Notice how bolsters are AP:5? Yeah that's meant to represent the above.
Any weapon in 40k is capable of punching through power armour. Yes, even lasguns. Only weapons that are AP4 or better would always penetrate.
And this is not just represented in both the rules of the tabletop and GW's Inquisitor game, but also the (rather extensive) fluff about Marine PA in Codex: Angels of Death:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium. "
Then again, it is clear to me that the HH novels are just depicting a "different" kind of 40k than the Codex fluff, WD articles, and the rulebooks, so perhaps this sub-debate is bound to be useless and we should just agree to disagree here. After all, both interpretations of the background remain equally valid. All I want to stress is that other posters are not "wrong" for sticking to the original material rather than what some BL authors cooked up.
ThePrimordial wrote:It could have been an exalted greater daemon or some gak.
On some random ship's bridge (which of course just happened to be large enough to accomodate such a presence), by sheer coincidence?
Well then, even Greater Daemons get killed by humans - so if a Greater Daemon can kill a Primarch...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....
I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.
i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind
So? I can kill a hundred rats with grenades. That doesn't mean I can't be eaten by them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....
I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.
i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind
It's kinda what happens when there are so many writers on one project.
Expect everything but power levels to be consistent.
Psienesis wrote: No gak a Sister couldn't beat a Primarch in hand-to-hand. Most things couldn't.
Basic humans couldn't beat a bear in hand to hand combat, that's why we invented spears.
But spears are weapons. If I am asked if a Marine is equal to a Sister, I assume it means with all gear: weapons and armour. And in the case of sorcerers or psykers, magic. I don´t see the point of comparing factions without armour and weapons in this setting.
However, just to keep track, my opinion is:
1: General warfare: Sisters are slightly worse than a marine. I am going with the 12 points vs 13 points of the tabletop. That´s about 12 points vs 500+ points of a Primarch.
2: Close fight using normal weapons: Sisters are quite worse than a marine. No chance against a Primarch. However, IF her faith is so powerful that she turns into a Living Saint and IF she is carrying a weapon as powerful as the Anathame or the Spear of Telesto... that would be a hell of a fight.
Bolter rounds dont do gak to power armor and in the HH marines take Bolter wounds like normal gun wounds. Notice how bolsters are AP:5? Yeah that's meant to represent the above.
Sanguinius held off the ground invasion force at the palace of 10's of thousands of traitor marines and countless demons for multiple days....
I forget the quote but in "Fear to Tread" chaos marines taking part in the assault describe him as untouchable, and having his every movement blurred.
Bolter rounds do not get through Power Armour easily, but they have a decent chance of causing severe damage. Even lasguns have a not that small chance of incapacitating a Marine.
Sanguinius was leading the Blood Angels Legion at the moment, and holding the most powerful defensive position ever built. And "Fear to Tread" didn´t say a single word on the matter, since it is a book about the battle in Signus Prime, seven years before the Battle for Terra.
Primarchs in the HH has never been seen fighting 10000 marines. This is quite over the top. Guilliman nearly died against ten marines in Unremembered Empire, just to mention a fight. And Fulgrim was defeated by five (really powerful) marines in Reflection Cracked. And Fulgrim was nearly killed by a sniper in Angel Exterminatus. And so on.
Psienesis wrote: Dorn died in a boarding action and Rowboat's head is falling off his shoulders from a sword-wound.
ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)
Only if you think the Primarchs are unbeatable. Yet the background is full of examples of big guys being defeated by "weaker" enemies.
Dorn (until quite recently) died holding his ground against the Black Legion, during the First Black Crusade, in a boarding action near Cadia. It makes a lot of sense. He got trapped and killed by a mass of Astartes, some of them powered-up by Chaos. You said quite recently that an Astartes helped by Chaos could fight a Primarch. Dorn was trapped by thousands of them, after refusing to retreat. And if you believe this doesn´t match the "tactical sagacity" of Dorn, he was known for this kind of stubborn, suicidal resistance, just like Ferrus. And his sons inherited this trait. They have weaknesses.
This has been recently semi-retconned. Now Dorn was just missing in the boarding. If he survived, it is unclear how he survived in a space ship infested with Daemons and Chaos Marines, and what he has been doing for 8000 years in the Eye of Terror.
Fulgrim "killed" Guilliman. This doesn´t count as Primarchs getting owned by a not Primarch.
Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin. However, he didn´t fight back. It was his own insanity what defeated him.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
the primarchs arn't mary sues.....i agree their not on superman level of powers..but their still vastly more powerful then any human in the 40k verse....
I never said they were. I was remarking on you assertion that a primarch getting killed by conventional means is a sign of bad writing.
i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind
It's kinda what happens when there are so many writers on one project.
Expect everything but power levels to be consistent.
i know.... and again you have to go by what the creators and writers intended that character to be....same with every other fictional character
Psienesis wrote: No gak a Sister couldn't beat a Primarch in hand-to-hand. Most things couldn't.
Basic humans couldn't beat a bear in hand to hand combat, that's why we invented spears.
But spears are weapons. If I am asked if a Marine is equal to a Sister, I assume it means with all gear: weapons and armour. And in the case of sorcerers or psykers, magic. I don´t see the point of comparing factions without armour and weapons in this setting.
However, just to keep track, my opinion is:
1: General warfare: Sisters are slightly worse than a marine. I am going with the 12 points vs 13 points of the tabletop. That´s about 12 points vs 500+ points of a Primarch.
2: Close fight using normal weapons: Sisters are quite worse than a marine. No chance against a Primarch. However, IF her faith is so powerful that she turns into a Living Saint and IF she is carrying a weapon as powerful as the Anathame or the Spear of Telesto... that would be a hell of a fight.
Bolter rounds dont do gak to power armor and in the HH marines take Bolter wounds like normal gun wounds. Notice how bolsters are AP:5? Yeah that's meant to represent the above.
Sanguinius held off the ground invasion force at the palace of 10's of thousands of traitor marines and countless demons for multiple days....
I forget the quote but in "Fear to Tread" chaos marines taking part in the assault describe him as untouchable, and having his every movement blurred.
Bolter rounds do not get through Power Armour easily, but they have a decent chance of causing severe damage. Even lasguns have a not that small chance of incapacitating a Marine.
Sanguinius was leading the Blood Angels Legion at the moment, and holding the most powerful defensive position ever built. And "Fear to Tread" didn´t say a single word on the matter, since it is a book about the battle in Signus Prime, seven years before the Battle for Terra.
Primarchs in the HH has never been seen fighting 10000 marines. This is quite over the top. Guilliman nearly died against ten marines in Unremembered Empire, just to mention a fight. And Fulgrim was defeated by five (really powerful) marines in Reflection Cracked. And Fulgrim was nearly killed by a sniper in Angel Exterminatus. And so on.
Psienesis wrote: Dorn died in a boarding action and Rowboat's head is falling off his shoulders from a sword-wound.
ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)
Only if you think the Primarchs are unbeatable. Yet the background is full of examples of big guys being defeated by "weaker" enemies.
Dorn (until quite recently) died holding his ground against the Black Legion, during the First Black Crusade, in a boarding action near Cadia. It makes a lot of sense. He got trapped and killed by a mass of Astartes, some of them powered-up by Chaos. You said quite recently that an Astartes helped by Chaos could fight a Primarch. Dorn was trapped by thousands of them, after refusing to retreat. And if you believe this doesn´t match the "tactical sagacity" of Dorn, he was known for this kind of stubborn, suicidal resistance, just like Ferrus. And his sons inherited this trait. They have weaknesses.
This has been recently semi-retconned. Now Dorn was just missing in the boarding. If he survived, it is unclear how he survived in a space ship infested with Daemons and Chaos Marines, and what he has been doing for 8000 years in the Eye of Terror.
Fulgrim "killed" Guilliman. This doesn´t count as Primarchs getting owned by a not Primarch.
Curze was killed by a Callidus assassin. However, he didn´t fight back. It was his own insanity what defeated him.
Magnus was able to destroy hundreds of space wolves with his mind
Sanguinius moved so fast that not even marines could keep up with him
Angron mowed through marines like the lawn
Fulgrim cut up tanks with his sword
they weren't unbeatable but much more powerful then humans
Automatically Appended Next Post: by the way....Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill hum
"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication.""
Automatically Appended Next Post: .Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill him
"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication.""
Arguably, her weapon was thus quite capable of finishing him off?
Here's something on the topic of differences between sources, historical revisionism and exaggerated myths:
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle." - 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186
Lynata wrote: Arguably, her weapon was thus quite capable of finishing him off?
Here's something on the topic of differences between sources, historical revisionism and exaggerated myths:
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle." - 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186
thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?
i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind
I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.
Primarchs are not Superman. Superman is (IMHO) BORING AS HELL. Primarchs are fun because they have weaknesses, make mistakes, do stupid stuff, and yet they are extremely powerful.
i know.... and again you have to go by what the creators and writers intended that character to be....same with every other fictional character
Isn´t it exactly the point of this discussion?
Some people here is claiming that X or Y are awesome and invincible... while the others are giving an endless stream of quotes about Primarchs getting problems, Sisters and humans beating Marines, and so on. The setting is FULL of this stuff. A single human with a melta gun can kill a Chapter Master, a single human with sorcery can kill a Primarch, a single Ork can nearly kill the Emperor, and so on.
The wars the Emperor, to focus on the most powerful character around that is not clearly a god (?), waged to unify mankind were not one-sided battles. They were always described as brutal and dirty. They were heroic. And heroism demands drama. This is a dark setting. No one is save.
And seriously, I like it that way. Superman is boring. The Emperor wining the Wars of Unification out of being "invincible" would be just as boring.
It should be pretty obvious that this is what the writers intended, since there are so many sources saying that.
i think it is...when Magnus can kill hundreds of wolves by just using his mind
I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.
Primarchs are not Superman. Superman is (IMHO) BORING AS HELL. Primarchs are fun because they have weaknesses, make mistakes, do stupid stuff, and yet they are extremely powerful.
i know.... and again you have to go by what the creators and writers intended that character to be....same with every other fictional character
Isn´t it exactly the point of this discussion?
Some people here is claiming that X or Y are awesome and invincible... while the others are giving an endless stream of quotes about Primarchs getting problems, Sisters and humans beating Marines, and so on. The setting is FULL of this stuff. A single human with a melta gun can kill a Chapter Master, a single human with sorcery can kill a Primarch, a single Ork can nearly kill the Emperor, and so on.
The wars the Emperor, to focus on the most powerful character around that is not clearly a god (?), waged to unify mankind were not one-sided battles. They were always described as brutal and dirty. They were heroic. And heroism demands drama. This is a dark setting. No one is save.
And seriously, I like it that way. Superman is boring. The Emperor wining the Wars of Unification out of being "invincible" would be just as boring.
It should be pretty obvious that this is what the writers intended, since there are so many sources saying that.
how is magnus able to beat hundreds of space wolves, yet lose 1 single marine?
Curze has a vision of Dorn being dragged to darkness and death by a thousand hands. I take it as a "death by a million cuts" death.
Which implies, as I said, a bunch of peons... the exact sorts of Naval Ratings that are thrown towards an airlock and told to shoot anyone who steps through it.
LightKing wrote:thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?
Yes! As I've said in my very first post in this thread, the fluff is open for interpretation and it comes down to how you want to see the setting.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths." - Marc Gascoigne, Chief Editor Black Library, as quoted here on dakka by novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the Horus Heresy writers
LightKing wrote:thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?
Yes! As I've said in my very first post in this thread, the fluff is open for interpretation and it comes down to how you want to see the setting.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths." - Marc Gascoigne, Chief Editor Black Library, as quoted here on dakka by novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the Horus Heresy writers
oh ok, my apologies then....
even then i still think using that as an argument in these types of debates is still reaching...
Lynata wrote: Arguably, her weapon was thus quite capable of finishing him off?
Here's something on the topic of differences between sources, historical revisionism and exaggerated myths:
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle." - 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186
Curze was weaker than most primarchs and he would need to be about 30% scar tissue before dying.
And yeah that crazy C'tan sword could kill anything.
Sanguinius moved so fast that not even marines could keep up with him
Because he has wings
Fulgrim cut up tanks with his sword
I think this never happened. You are mixing him with Vulcan and his hammer I guess. And any marine can destroy a tank with a thunder hammer. And a human can destroy a tank with a power fist quite easily.
they weren't unbeatable but much more powerful then humans
Then we agree? Why you keep insisting that anyone here is saying that Primarchs are as powerful as humans?
by the way....Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill hum
I actually said that in the post you are technically answering. Read it. He died because his madness.
The greatest benefit of these threads is that it identifies the people to add to my ignore list when things get heated.
The lack of any kind of canon to 40K means that these debates are ultimately useless and futile. Me, I hate most of the books that BL publishes, because they are terrible. I don't even really like the Fire and Faith series that much. Of the two HH books I've read, it's enough to tell me that I don't need to read the rest to know I'll hate them.
In these arguments, no one is right, but no one is wrong, unless one tries to quote a specific page or a specific book and gets it wrong.
Psienesis wrote: The greatest benefit of these threads is that it identifies the people to add to my ignore list when things get heated.
The lack of any kind of canon to 40K means that these debates are ultimately useless and futile. Me, I hate most of the books that BL publishes, because they are terrible. I don't even really like the Fire and Faith series that much. Of the two HH books I've read, it's enough to tell me that I don't need to read the rest to know I'll hate them.
In these arguments, no one is right, but no one is wrong, unless one tries to quote a specific page or a specific book and gets it wrong.
i hope im not on your ignore list
i apoloigize, i just tend to get heated in debates of any subject......
LightKing wrote:even then i still think using that as an argument in these types of debates is still reaching...
Well, what's the alternative?
One side is pointing at books that say one thing, the other side is pointing at books that say another. Who is in the right? As far as the makers of this setting are concerned: everyone.
And this realisation is the only way to actually move the discussion forward. Else we end up with the cycle of doom that da001 has referenced earlier.
ThePrimordial wrote:Curze was weaker than most primarchs and he would need to be about 30% scar tissue before dying.
LightKing wrote:thats a cop out...you can say the same thing about sisters or marines "it could be a lie, contradictory, or legends"
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?
Yes! As I've said in my very first post in this thread, the fluff is open for interpretation and it comes down to how you want to see the setting.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about 'canonical background' will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history.
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths." - Marc Gascoigne, Chief Editor Black Library, as quoted here on dakka by novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden, one of the Horus Heresy writers
that quote by Marc Gascoigne...just seems like their trying to be lazy with the fluff, and not try to make it flow and be consistent so their just like "it could be true or not"
Psienesis wrote: The greatest benefit of these threads is that it identifies the people to add to my ignore list when things get heated.
The lack of any kind of canon to 40K means that these debates are ultimately useless and futile. Me, I hate most of the books that BL publishes, because they are terrible. I don't even really like the Fire and Faith series that much. Of the two HH books I've read, it's enough to tell me that I don't need to read the rest to know I'll hate them.
In these arguments, no one is right, but no one is wrong, unless one tries to quote a specific page or a specific book and gets it wrong.
I generally find that ignoring people does more harm than good. Certainly, you can flush out some otherwise distracting people, but I have many times formed an enmity with someone only to later befriend them. I can't really put someone on a ignore list any longer.
Just my two cents though, feel free to go along with your own way.
Sanguinius moved so fast that not even marines could keep up with him
Because he has wings
Fulgrim cut up tanks with his sword
I think this never happened. You are mixing him with Vulcan and his hammer I guess. And any marine can destroy a tank with a thunder hammer. And a human can destroy a tank with a power fist quite easily.
they weren't unbeatable but much more powerful then humans
Then we agree? Why you keep insisting that anyone here is saying that Primarchs are as powerful as humans?
by the way....Curze knew the M'shen was in his vincinity, HE let Her kill hum
I actually said that in the post you are technically answering. Read it. He died because his madness.
so your pretty much saying all 40k fluff could either be true or a legend/false?
It is.
There are some declarations by people from GW that this is exactly the case.
I can perceive a bird moving bro.......
Fulgrim did cut up a tank, just like he beat up an avatar barefisted.
And just like Angron overpowered a warhound Titan trying to crush him with all of it's might, and like how Lorgar took Titan plasma to the face and lived.
Primarchs are tough.
LightKing wrote:that quote by Marc Gascoigne...just seems like their trying to be lazy with the fluff, and not try to make it flow and be consistent so their just like "it could be true or not"
Personally, I would prefer a more consistent approach myself (I really like how Battletech handles this, though Star Wars also has a relatively good system in place). But I can see the other side of the coin: by making everything open for interpretation, they put the decision into your hands. Just like how you can invent your own Marine Chapter or Guard regiment complete with their homeworlds, GW wants you to make the fluff your own.
Check out the thread in which Aaron Dembski-Bowden explained and defended this philosophy - it's worth the read!
LightKing wrote:that quote by Marc Gascoigne...just seems like their trying to be lazy with the fluff, and not try to make it flow and be consistent so their just like "it could be true or not"
Personally, I would prefer a more consistent approach myself (I really like how Battletech handles this, though Star Wars also has a relatively good system in place). But I can see the other side of the coin: by making everything open for interpretation, they put the decision into your hands. Just like how you can invent your own Marine Chapter or Guard regiment complete with their homeworlds, GW wants you to make the fluff your own.
Check out the thread in which Aaron Dembski-Bowden explained and defended this philosophy - it's worth the read!
true i guess its hard to be consistent when you have a big stable of writers (black library)with different interpretations of the lore
although i think a consistent approach could work say with a group of 3 or 4 writers......
Not at all. Your statement of "all or most respects" seemed to imply an acknowledgement of the variation among Inquisitors that I'd previously mentioned as a factor. So if we're saying that Inquisitors can vary, then why not one who isn't a slaughterhouse in combat, but is a fantastic manipulator/investigator/scholar/psyker'whatever? Or one who has their lackies fight for them? I don't think that an Inquisitor has to be particularly exceptional inn combat, there's more to being an Inquisitor than that, after all.
Void__Dragon wrote: We don't know if a less combat-capable inquisitor would be allowed, though I have yet to see one.
Well, again, Karamazov exists. Being elderly, he may not be top-notch in direct combat. Sure, he has his chair, but surely he's not in it 24/7? Yet he, presumably remains an Inquisitor when he's out of it, so it would seem that the Inquisition isn't absolute about that sort of thing.
I mean, look at his sword. He'd have to be quite strong to wield that thing in combat.
Sure, he's probably spry for an older guy. But lifting a sword doesn't indicate combat prowess, any Sister could do that too.
Void__Dragon wrote: What is up with you people and thinking "Oh, don't like us gimping? Let's gimp the Sisters too but still give them the advantage".
I mean, more to the subject of this thread, by that token, naked Sister vs. naked Marine, who wins? But that wouldn't be fair, would it?
I didn't mean to offend you, I just figured that it was a fair scenario that removed any and all edges granted by equipment. Obviously not a typical situation, but it shows that the Sister has an innate edge.
Hmmm, nah. Borrowing a bit too heavily from the Marines, there. Two examples of some cool new (and original!) stuff for the Sisters would be zealot mobs and Celestians that can take melee weapons and perhaps storm shields. Two very fluffly units that fill niches in the army
Not all of the sisters of course, just as an elite unit.
Ha, I knew it would be that picture.
Again, borrowing a bit too heavily from the Marines, pehaps. Though I admit that it does look cool, boobplate chain aside.
Void__Dragon wrote: That faith you are talking about didn't protect them from the Sons of Malice, or the Necrons, lol.
But neither of those enemies used psychic attacks agains the Sisters. Psienesis was making the point that Sisters have something of an edge over Magnus specifically because he relies so much on psychic attacks, whilst the Sisters can resist psychic attacks.
Fulgrim did cut up a tank, just like he beat up an avatar barefisted.
And just like Angron overpowered a warhound Titan trying to crush him with all of it's might, and like how Lorgar took Titan plasma to the face and lived.
Primarchs are tough.
LightKing wrote:true i guess its hard to be consistent when you have a big stable of writers (black library)with different interpretations of the lore
although i think a consistent approach could work say with a group of 3 or 4 writers......
Quite so. It may sound nasty, but there's a saying that goes like "many cooks spoil the broth" ... it's just an issue of everyone having their own idea, and by being empowered as the author of an official product this enables them to leave their mark on the setting. All that GW did was, rather than forcing them to stick to a construct (they still do this to a degree, but style is more important to them) they just gave everyone - including the fans - carte blanche.
This is also one of the reasons for why I have a general preference for GW core studio publications, as far as my own vision of the 41st millennium is concerned: apart from this being the books that I've "grown up" with, the studio also has a comparatively small team of writers and they at least do talk to each other to ensure a minimum of consistency, apart from the occasional retcon. Expand this by adding dozens of Black Library novelists or the teams at FFG and Forge World, and you get this number in deviating ideas.
Troike wrote:Hmmm, nah. Borrowing a bit too heavily from the Marines, there. Two examples of some cool new (and original!) stuff for the Sisters would be zealot mobs and Celestians that can take melee weapons and perhaps storm shields. Two very fluffly and units that fill niches in the army
Agreed (also about your comment on that mini) ... but I'd still like to see an SoB version of a melee-focused Centurion, Ripley-powerloader-style.
I'm always amazed at how heated these threads get, its like, almost as heated as the "which turtle is the best" arguments when I was in elementary school, but everyone has pubes now.
Which means they should know better.
Oh and its Donatello quite clearly. More range, clearly the most intellectual, and doesn't have a ganja problem like Michaelangelo.
mattyrm wrote: I'm always amazed at how heated these threads get, its like, almost as heated as the "which turtle is the best" arguments when I was in elementary school, but everyone has pubes now.
Which means they should know better.
Oh and its Donatello quite clearly. More range, clearly the most intellectual, and doesn't have a ganja problem like Michaelangelo.
Not at all. Your statement of "all or most respects" seemed to imply an acknowledgement of the variation among Inquisitors that I'd previously mentioned as a factor. So if we're saying that Inquisitors can vary, then why not one who isn't a slaughterhouse in combat, but is a fantastic manipulator/investigator/scholar/psyker'whatever? Or one who has their lackies fight for them? I don't think that an Inquisitor has to be particularly exceptional inn combat, there's more to being an Inquisitor than that, after all.
Void__Dragon wrote: We don't know if a less combat-capable inquisitor would be allowed, though I have yet to see one.
Well, again, Karamazov exists. Being elderly, he may not be top-notch in direct combat. Sure, he has his chair, but surely he's not in it 24/7? Yet he, presumably remains an Inquisitor when he's out of it, so it would seem that the Inquisition isn't absolute about that sort of thing.
I mean, look at his sword. He'd have to be quite strong to wield that thing in combat.
Sure, he's probably spry for an older guy. But lifting a sword doesn't indicate combat prowess, any Sister could do that too.
Void__Dragon wrote: What is up with you people and thinking "Oh, don't like us gimping? Let's gimp the Sisters too but still give them the advantage".
I mean, more to the subject of this thread, by that token, naked Sister vs. naked Marine, who wins? But that wouldn't be fair, would it?
I didn't mean to offend you, I just figured that it was a fair scenario that removed any and all edges granted by equipment. Obviously not a typical situation, but it shows that the Sister has an innate edge.
Hmmm, nah. Borrowing a bit too heavily from the Marines, there. Two examples of some cool new (and original!) stuff for the Sisters would be zealot mobs and Celestians that can take melee weapons and perhaps storm shields. Two very fluffly units that fill niches in the army
Not all of the sisters of course, just as an elite unit.
Ha, I knew it would be that picture.
Again, borrowing a bit too heavily from the Marines, pehaps. Though I admit that it does look cool, boobplate chain aside.
Void__Dragon wrote: That faith you are talking about didn't protect them from the Sons of Malice, or the Necrons, lol.
But neither of those enemies used psychic attacks agains the Sisters. Psienesis was making the point that Sisters have something of an edge over Magnus specifically because he relies so much on psychic attacks, whilst the Sisters can resist psychic attacks.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
I can perceive a bird moving bro.......
Fulgrim did cut up a tank, just like he beat up an avatar barefisted.
And just like Angron overpowered a warhound Titan trying to crush him with all of it's might, and like how Lorgar took Titan plasma to the face and lived.
Primarchs are tough.
Fulgrim beat up an avatar barefisted in "Fulgrim" (the HH novel, one of my favorites). Don´t remember him cutting up a tank. Source? I am not saying you are wrong, I am asking for the source. I really like Fulgrim.
Angron did the amazing deed of holding the feet of a Warhound Titan for a few seconds in Bretrayer. It is the same book where Lorgar took a plasma shot and nearly died. It is said that he would have died if Angron didn´t save him. And Angron nearly died because he got trapped behind some rocks and started carving in the wrong direction. Their own insanity, again, is their main weakness. And they can die. It is
Also, I already quoted the same thing you are quoting to me as proof that Primarchs can be defeated. Nobody is saying it is easy. At all. But it is possible.
LightKing wrote: that quote by Marc Gascoigne...just seems like their trying to be lazy with the fluff, and not try to make it flow and be consistent so their just like "it could be true or not"
Well... it is the way the fluff is written. All of it. This is the reason it is so bombastic. And it is intentional. And I like it a lot, because it makes the setting a living thing where players can participate or create new things. We are actually encouraged to create new Chapters, new Chaos Warlords, new stories... the two missing Primarchs were created so people could make up their own Primarch.
I don´t think they did it because they were lazy. They were trying to recreate the epicness of ancient legends the best way they knew.
I can perceive a bird moving bro.......
Fulgrim did cut up a tank, just like he beat up an avatar barefisted.
And just like Angron overpowered a warhound Titan trying to crush him with all of it's might, and like how Lorgar took Titan plasma to the face and lived.
Primarchs are tough.
Fulgrim beat up an avatar barefisted in "Fulgrim" (the HH novel, one of my favorites). Don´t remember him cutting up a tank. Source? I am not saying you are wrong, I am asking for the source. I really like Fulgrim.
Angron did the amazing deed of holding the feet of a Warhound Titan for a few seconds in Bretrayer. It is the same book where Lorgar took a plasma shot and nearly died. It is said that he would have died if Angron didn´t save him. And Angron nearly died because he got trapped behind some rocks and started carving in the wrong direction. Their own insanity, again, is their main weakness. And they can die. It is
Also, I already quoted the same thing you are quoting to me as proof that Primarchs can be defeated. Nobody is saying it is easy. At all. But it is possible.
LightKing wrote: that quote by Marc Gascoigne...just seems like their trying to be lazy with the fluff, and not try to make it flow and be consistent so their just like "it could be true or not"
Well... it is the way the fluff is written. All of it. This is the reason it is so bombastic. And it is intentional. And I like it a lot, because it makes the setting a living thing where players can participate or create new things. We are actually encouraged to create new Chapters, new Chaos Warlords, new stories... the two missing Primarchs were created so people could make up their own Primarch.
I don´t think they did it because they were lazy. They were trying to recreate the epicness of ancient legends the best way they knew.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
mattyrm wrote: I'm always amazed at how heated these threads get, its like, almost as heated as the "which turtle is the best" arguments when I was in elementary school, but everyone has pubes now.
Which means they should know better.
Oh and its Donatello quite clearly. More range, clearly the most intellectual, and doesn't have a ganja problem like Michaelangelo.
You are on crack. Raphael was the BAMF of the Turtles.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
Probably not. The only point I made was that Sisters have an edge in that they can resist psychic power, which is Magnus' favoured method of attack. Never said anything about them winning, or it being 1 on 1.
And why did you send me a PM accusing me of saying that a Sister would beat him 1 on 1? Where did I say that?
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
Probably not. The only point I made was that Sisters have an edge in that they can resist psychic power, which is Magnus' favoured method of attack. Never said anything about them winning, or it being 1 on 1.
And why did you send me a PM accusing me of saying that a Sister would beat him 1 on 1? Where did I say that?
i mean you can imagine sanguinius and his speed, vs a sister...jesus christ
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
Probably not. The only point I made was that Sisters have an edge in that they can resist psychic power, which is Magnus' favoured method of attack. Never said anything about them winning, or it being 1 on 1.
And why did you send me a PM accusing me of saying that a Sister would beat him 1 on 1? Where did I say that?
Do you remember that thread aout how much damage an Ork would do in a modern town? And everyone was like "Oh yeah they would kill like thousands of people" because people dont understand how guns work.
Melissia has the right of it, technology is the ultimate force multiplier, thats why we have been in Afghanistan for 12 years.
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
Its what makes the whole argument silly, its fiction, you make most of the story up in your head and its plenty of fun, it cant and shouldnt be approached in a... er... logical manner?
Although, playing devils advocate I have to say, don't SM and such have super duper reflexes and super duper strength? If they all had MM, it would be pretty fething hard to score a hit on a SM, they can probably move faster carrying one than a modern sprinter can run in his underpants, I guess the sister wouldn't have the same mobility and would therefore be at a huge disadvantage, because its fething hard to hit a moving target.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
LightKing wrote: that quote by Marc Gascoigne...just seems like their trying to be lazy with the fluff, and not try to make it flow and be consistent so their just like "it could be true or not"
Well... it is the way the fluff is written. All of it. This is the reason it is so bombastic. And it is intentional. And I like it a lot, because it makes the setting a living thing where players can participate or create new things. We are actually encouraged to create new Chapters, new Chaos Warlords, new stories... the two missing Primarchs were created so people could make up their own Primarch.
I don´t think they did it because they were lazy. They were trying to recreate the epicness of ancient legends the best way they knew.
This I agree with. We are looking at a timeline that spans thousands and thousands of years. Sure, some of those people live a bit longer than 100 but honestly their lives are still a drop in the bucket of the sheer amount of time that has passed.
We have a hard time establishing "historical truth" from events that happened only 100 years ago. How is a technologically stunted, highly religious society which has institutions dedicated to redacting and suppressing the past supposed to be written? Well, the only way to handle that is by establishing that there may be absolutely No truth in the stories you read or they might be 100% correct. Which is pretty much how human history currently stands. Heck you can have 10 well educated people witness the same event and have them tell 10 very different versions of what happened. This is well known and highly documented.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Heh, thought they were. Their organisation isn't entirely clear. From what I found on wiki, if you were to just count the Major Order, then I think there's something like 6000 sisters.
However, there are a bunch of other orders and parts of the Adepta Sororitas as well.
Wait, there a million Space Marines? That number seems a little high. I thought it was closer to 10,000.
Million plus. Numbers should also waver given the constant recruitment of astartes and founding of new chapters. And chapters don't normally kick it. Plus it's hard to count guys like the Space Wolves or Black Templars.
And seriously LightKing. Stop making threads like these. Frankly, they're stupid questions that would be answered by reading the fluff. It'd be nice if you could please stop pestering us with questions that would be answered by a trip to the bookstore/library or just send PM's to somebody that would pleasantly answer them.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Yes, we are totally serious, and totally not being flippant. You can tell how serious I am with my repeated use of the word "totally."
da001 wrote: Ouch.
Kor Phaeron was no psyker. A psyker is a mutant (not entirely human) who is born with power. When Lorgar came to Colchis, Kor Phaeron was an old man whose only powers were reading books and having faith.
So tell me: What do you call the lightning he tossed at Guilliman?
And Luther is a similar case.
And yes, they got help. But so did the marines with the augmentations and psico-indoctrinations. And the Primarchs were BORN that powerful. Which is... far less impressive that what Kor Phaeron and Luther achieved being just "puny humans".
Luther was given power by the Chaos Gods. It was not earned, it was given to him. And that power outstrips any Sister of Battle that has ever lived, based on what we have seen.
Humans can kick ass in the setting. In many ways, Sisters, Commissars and perhaps Assassins and Psykers (if they can be considered still humans) are examples of this.
With the exception of powerful psykers, none of them have been shown to be capable of taking out Primarchs with anything resembling reliability.
Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.
We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.
Why do you spread lies throughout the forums?
We have no idea what killed Dorn. None at all. To say otherwise is to lie.
The Khan? We also have no notion of where he is.
Jonson? "Regular dude"?
Luther was amplified by the Chaos Gods themselves to be on Lion El'Jonson's level.
Fulgrim did cut up a tank, just like he beat up an avatar barefisted.
And just like Angron overpowered a warhound Titan trying to crush him with all of it's might, and like how Lorgar took Titan plasma to the face and lived.
Primarchs are tough.
Or so the legends say.
Those aren't the legends.
The Legends are primarchs busting mountains, and being literally unkillable.
Both exist in universe. Which are the legends? I wonder....
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
There is a difference between being unbeatable and being very powerful.
I am sorry that humans with power armour can't defeat a genetically and Warp engineered superman designed by the most brilliant scientific and psychic mind in human history. I am sorry that is bad writing to you.
mattyrm wrote: I'm always amazed at how heated these threads get, its like, almost as heated as the "which turtle is the best" arguments when I was in elementary school, but everyone has pubes now.
Which means they should know better.
Oh and its Donatello quite clearly. More range, clearly the most intellectual, and doesn't have a ganja problem like Michaelangelo.
Donatello was always the best on the old Gameboy game.
But maybe when the SOB codex said "Equal to Space Marine," they meant it in a general battle force kind of way. Getting attacked by the SOB is just as bad as getting attacked by Marines. That's how I interpret it. There's a lot of talk about sisters fighting a marine in unarmed combat 1 on 1. Of course a Marine would waste a sister in that case, but that won't happen too often. A marine can get shot just like anyone else or overpowered by two or three sisters.
Some of the Primarchs died to purely conventional weapons.
We don't even know the name of the Chaos-aligned midshipman who punched Dorn's ticket. We don't know the name of the pasty point-ear who slapped Khan in chains. Jonson was felled by the psychic attack of a regular dude.
Why do you spread lies throughout the forums?
We have no idea what killed Dorn. None at all. To say otherwise is to lie.
The Khan? We also have no notion of where he is.
Jonson? "Regular dude"?
Luther was amplified by the Chaos Gods themselves to be on Lion El'Jonson's level.
Stop lying.
QFT.
Also for Dorn, we don't even know if he's KIA. He's still MIA with the only thing the Imperial Fists have is his fist.
I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
With some holy plot device weapon.
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
He nearly killed Bjorn the Fell-Handed. He wasn't beaten by Bjorn, though the fight lasted longer than it should have. Magnus' appearance in the book was pretty awful.
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.
I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
With some holy plot device weapon.
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
He nearly killed Bjorn the Fell-Handed. He wasn't beaten by Bjorn, though the fight lasted longer than it should have. Magnus' appearance in the book was pretty awful.
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually, I would say bad writing is creating an unbeatable mary sue with no discernible weaknesses. One of the reasons why I hate superman, really.
There is a difference between being unbeatable and being very powerful.
I am sorry that humans with power armour can't defeat a genetically and Warp engineered superman designed by the most brilliant scientific and psychic mind in human history. I am sorry that is bad writing to you.
Again, it was a reference to this. Which was followed up by some analogy about Superman getting killed by a Rottweiler. Which is technically possible, provided the rottweiler had kryptonite.
Psienesis wrote: Dorn died in a boarding action and Rowboat's head is falling off his shoulders from a sword-wound.
ok? thats what we call bad fluff/bad writing or PIS (plot-indused stupidity)
Thanos The Mad Titan was arrested by beat cops and put into handcuffs...
so does that mean a cop could beat Thanos?
Yes. The Primarchs are very powerful. Yes, they are a real bitch to kill. That does not mean that sufficient amounts of firepower can't kill one. If it couldn't, then there would be no need to have the space marines to start the great crusade, now would there?
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.
Again, it was a reference to this. Which was followed up by some analogy about Superman getting killed by a Rottweiler. Which is technically possible, provided the rottweiler had kryptonite.
Yes. The Primarchs are very powerful. Yes, they are a real bitch to kill. That does not mean that sufficient amounts of firepower can't kill one. If it couldn't, then there would be no need to have the space marines to start the great crusade, now would there?
Sure, but, once more, it requires a lot of firepower to do so. Generally more than what humans lug around in the Imperium.
Unless ADB feels the need to have Primarchs dying to bolter rounds.
BT is ~6K. SW is ~2K. Not that hard to count them. 40K wiki states the 2nd largest in existence for the Wolves, but provides absolutely nothing backing that up (mainly because the 40K Wikia permits fan-fluff to be treated as canon).
GW, fortunately, sells Ragnar Blackmane's entire Great Company for $1000. It's got 131 Space Wolves in it, including Dreadnoughts, Rune Priests, Iron Priests, and Bikers, as well as packs of Fenrisian Wolves.
Ragnar's Great Company is said to be the 2nd largest of the Great Companies. So, let's give the Space Wolves the benefit of the doubt, and say that 10 of the remaining 11 Great Companies has 130 Space Wolves in it, which puts them just 1 Marine under Ragnar. Let's also assume that Logan Grimnar's Great Company. as the Great Wolf, has 5 times the Marines that Ragnar does.
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.
It'd probably bounce off the skull of an Astartes as well if it's similar to that of modern rounds. And an Ork for that matter.
(Although it probably wouldn't be lethal for the Ork even if it did penetrate.)
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.
It'd probably bounce off the skull of an Astartes as well if it's similar to that of modern rounds. And an Ork for that matter.
(Although it probably wouldn't be lethal for the Ork even if it did penetrate.)
look im not saying that primarchs are unkillable..or unbeatable....but the fact is, is that they generally were more powerful then marines, sisters and any other human.....
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.
Apparently not, as Curze was killed by M'Shen, who was not even Vindicare.
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.
Apparently not, as Curze was killed by M'Shen, who was not even Vindicare.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
We have a hard time establishing "historical truth" from events that happened only 100 years ago. How is a technologically stunted, highly religious society which has institutions dedicated to redacting and suppressing the past supposed to be written? Well, the only way to handle that is by establishing that there may be absolutely No truth in the stories you read or they might be 100% correct. Which is pretty much how human history currently stands. Heck you can have 10 well educated people witness the same event and have them tell 10 very different versions of what happened. This is well known and highly documented.
Exactly.
We know nothing of what happened just 3000 years ago. And we are living in a society that values investigation and the study of History. Imagine if it is 10000 years instead of 3000, in a society that burns anyone with a critical mind, hates culture with a passion and is based solely on superstition and propaganda. That´s the setting.
da001 wrote: Ouch.
Kor Phaeron was no psyker. A psyker is a mutant (not entirely human) who is born with power. When Lorgar came to Colchis, Kor Phaeron was an old man whose only powers were reading books and having faith.
So tell me: What do you call the lightning he tossed at Guilliman?
Sorcery.
He wasn´t born a psyker. He did it the hard way... through study and will-power. He (perhaps) manipulated a Primarch with his words and nearly defeated another with the power the gods gave him because his faith.... during the Heresy he caused.
Seriously, some humans kick ass.
And Luther is a similar case.
And yes, they got help. But so did the marines with the augmentations and psico-indoctrinations. And the Primarchs were BORN that powerful. Which is... far less impressive that what Kor Phaeron and Luther achieved being just "puny humans".
Luther was given power by the Chaos Gods. It was not earned, it was given to him. And that power outstrips any Sister of Battle that has ever lived, based on what we have seen.
Arguable. Both of them. Sources about Luther are contradictory at best. And some Sisters can turn into Living Saints. Perhaps a particularly powerful Living Saint with a relic (named) armour and one of those incredible weapons the setting has may have a chance against a Primarch in a proper context.
Humans can kick ass in the setting. In many ways, Sisters, Commissars and perhaps Assassins and Psykers (if they can be considered still humans) are examples of this.
With the exception of powerful psykers, none of them have been shown to be capable of taking out Primarchs with anything resembling reliability.
Nobody is discussing that. I just pointed out that it is possible, and provided some situations where Primarchs were defeated or nearly defeated by clearly inferior enemy-types.
I am fond of humans going beyond marines and primarchs in the setting. Hey, we are humans, are we not?
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
Deathmark Assassin doesn't need to run, just step into one hyperdimension and step out where the target Primarch is going to be. A literal "head them off at the pass" move.... and maybe even "off their heads as they pass".
Psienesis wrote: So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.
Pretty much. Although you'd have to land the hit considering most of them would be able to rip apart a Necron with their bare hands and are stupidly fast and have powerful weapons of their own. Then there's the Primarch able to rip them apart with his mind.
(And the one who wrestled one to death. In lava.)
Although-
No, not because it's made of Necrodermis. Phase weaponry kills because it doesn't care how good your armor is. It phases out of reality and pops back in your stomach.
I really like Magnus the Red.... BUT
1) He was defeated twice by a single marine (awful fluff, I know)
With some holy plot device weapon.
2) He was beaten by a Dreadnought (awful fluff, probably, haven´t read the book yet; fear the moment)
He nearly killed Bjorn the Fell-Handed. He wasn't beaten by Bjorn, though the fight lasted longer than it should have. Magnus' appearance in the book was pretty awful.
3) He was so emo about how he felt about his daddy that he allows the Wolves to destroy half Prospero and decimate his sons before doing something. I always thought the main weakness of the Primarchs was their own emotional problems. Most of them are described as teenagers from an emotional point of view.
He overpowered Jonson and nearly throttled the life out of him. Same with Dorn.
I meant he wasn't the strongest or toughest. He was the 2nd fastest (Sanguinius was faster, right?), the most unpredictable, one of the smartest, and arguably the best weapon handler.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
I'm talking about a modern one. It'd harmlessly ping off the armor. And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.
(And Orks just get burnt skin.)
We have a hard time establishing "historical truth" from events that happened only 100 years ago. How is a technologically stunted, highly religious society which has institutions dedicated to redacting and suppressing the past supposed to be written? Well, the only way to handle that is by establishing that there may be absolutely No truth in the stories you read or they might be 100% correct. Which is pretty much how human history currently stands. Heck you can have 10 well educated people witness the same event and have them tell 10 very different versions of what happened. This is well known and highly documented.
Exactly.
We know nothing of what happened just 3000 years ago. And we are living in a society that values investigation and the study of History. Imagine if it is 10000 years instead of 3000, in a society that burns anyone with a critical mind, hates culture with a passion and is based solely on superstition and propaganda. That´s the setting.
da001 wrote: Ouch.
Kor Phaeron was no psyker. A psyker is a mutant (not entirely human) who is born with power. When Lorgar came to Colchis, Kor Phaeron was an old man whose only powers were reading books and having faith.
So tell me: What do you call the lightning he tossed at Guilliman?
Sorcery.
He wasn´t born a psyker. He did it the hard way... through study and will-power. He (perhaps) manipulated a Primarch with his words and nearly defeated another with the power the gods gave him because his faith.... during the Heresy he caused.
Seriously, some humans kick ass.
And Luther is a similar case.
And yes, they got help. But so did the marines with the augmentations and psico-indoctrinations. And the Primarchs were BORN that powerful. Which is... far less impressive that what Kor Phaeron and Luther achieved being just "puny humans".
Luther was given power by the Chaos Gods. It was not earned, it was given to him. And that power outstrips any Sister of Battle that has ever lived, based on what we have seen.
Arguable. Both of them. Sources about Luther are contradictory at best. And some Sisters can turn into Living Saints. Perhaps a particularly powerful Living Saint with a relic (named) armour and one of those incredible weapons the setting has may have a chance against a Primarch in a proper context.
Humans can kick ass in the setting. In many ways, Sisters, Commissars and perhaps Assassins and Psykers (if they can be considered still humans) are examples of this.
With the exception of powerful psykers, none of them have been shown to be capable of taking out Primarchs with anything resembling reliability.
Nobody is discussing that. I just pointed out that it is possible, and provided some situations where Primarchs were defeated or nearly defeated by clearly inferior enemy-types.
I am fond of humans going beyond marines and primarchs in the setting. Hey, we are humans, are we not?
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
No, Magnus is still a primarch and has superior physical advantages then a sister, he would crush her
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
Apparently not, as Curze was killed by M'Shen, who was not even Vindicare.
Sigh.
Why do this Psienesis?
Anyway, M'Shen killed Curze with a C'tan Phase Sword, which phases through basically everything as though it were not there. It is sort of constructed from a star god after all.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
We're aware that Bolters are .70 cal, explosive, and have a velocity of something in the neighborhood of 20000 feet per second. Those don't go all the way through marines unarmored. They go deep enough to do damage to organs.
Modern day .50 cal wont do much to a marine.
Tell that to FFG or Black library. If something can normally shrug off bolter rounds reliably, then from a TT to fluff perspective it wont get dented by a lasgun.
Psienesis wrote: So then any Necron Warrior could kill a Primarch, as a C'Tan Phase Sword is made of Necrodermis.
Pretty much. Although you'd have to land the hit considering most of them would be able to rip apart a Necron with their bare hands and are stupidly fast and have powerful weapons of their own. Then there's the Primarch able to rip them apart with his mind.
(And the one who wrestled one to death. In lava.)
Although-
No, not because it's made of Necrodermis. Phase weaponry kills because it doesn't care how good your armor is. It phases out of reality and pops back in your stomach.
That was apparently a function of Necrodermis with the CPS was created. No, I don't understand how or why either, but apparently that was why.
And (in response to Void) Necrodermis is Necrodermis. We are not told that the C'Tan had their bodies built out of a different material of the same name as the rest of the Necrons.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
It could not reliably penetrate the armour, but just his bare face? Come on.
da001 wrote: Sorcery.
He wasn´t born a psyker. He did it the hard way... through study and will-power. He (perhaps) manipulated a Primarch with his words and nearly defeated another with the power the gods gave him because his faith.... during the Heresy he caused.
Seriously, some humans kick ass.
Do not get me wrong, Kor Phaeron is Metal as feth, but you're frankly moving the goalposts here.
Arguable. Both of them. Sources about Luther are contradictory at best.
"Although the Primarch possessed immense
power, the two opponents were equally matched, for Luther's
abilities were enhanced by vast forces gifted to him by the
Dark Gods. What followed was a fight of titanic proportions.
As tl1e two adversaries traded blows, shock waves shook tl1e
monastery, causing chunks of masonry to crash dOWll around
them."
- Dark Angels 6e codex, page 9
And some Sisters can turn into Living Saints. Perhaps a particularly powerful Living Saint with a relic (named) armour and one of those incredible weapons the setting has may have a chance against a Primarch in a proper context.
''This dude can destroy a planet by farting, so throwing a rock at him won't hurt him. No, he can die by throwing two planets at him etc.''
It just sounds so silly.
why is it silly?....
What he's describing is silly enough for me to crack a smile but that's not what's going on.
Regardless let's quit the primarch debate.
In my final opinion: A sister has 0 chance one on one with a marine in any contest or circumstance. And there are more marines than sisters. There.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
It could not reliably penetrate the armour, but just his bare face? Come on.
Unlikely. IIRC, there's at least one Sergeant that took a bolter round to the face and survived it. While a fifty would likely mess up the face pretty bad, it'd probably cleanly deflect off the skull (albeit likely burning up a lot of the scalp).
Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
Prove that "small arms" in this context are laspistols and autoguns.
Especially considering the arms the enemy were using were lasguns and merely scorching the armor of the charging loyalist Death Guard. One guy tanked a shot in his helmet and merely had his auspex and vox scrambled by the energy but shook it off. Autoguns (or as we know them, modern-style firearms), harmlessly ping off armor with no affect, even at point-blank range.
And (in response to Void) Necrodermis is Necrodermis. We are not told that the C'Tan had their bodies built out of a different material of the same name as the rest of the Necrons.
No, but we do know that the average Necron's fist doesn't phase through power armour and everything else.
I mean, both a steel sword and a steel wristband are made of the same material. But only one is a lethal weapon under ordinary circumstances.
... I mean, really? Is your argument literally that a Necron's fist is the same as a C'tan Phase Sword?
And (in response to Void) Necrodermis is Necrodermis. We are not told that the C'Tan had their bodies built out of a different material of the same name as the rest of the Necrons.
No, but we do know that the average Necron's fist doesn't phase through power armour and everything else.
I mean, both a steel sword and a steel wristband are made of the same material. But only one is a lethal weapon under ordinary circumstances.
... I mean, really? Is your argument literally that a Necron's fist is the same as a C'tan Phase Sword?
Which it isn't, because it's a weapon of it's own. Hold on, I'll check the codex real fast.
And nope. It's pretty clear that you're just making up man, phase weaponry is a power weapon that vibrates between different dimensions. It sure as isn't normal necrodermis. A necron's fist isn't going to punch through your armor- but any phase weaponry on hand will.
(Although I don't remember any instance of Iron Halos interacting with Phase Weapons, which might do something, I don't know.)
MWHistorian wrote:But maybe when the SOB codex said "Equal to Space Marine," they meant it in a general battle force kind of way. Getting attacked by the SOB is just as bad as getting attacked by Marines. That's how I interpret it. There's a lot of talk about sisters fighting a marine in unarmed combat 1 on 1. Of course a Marine would waste a sister in that case, but that won't happen too often. A marine can get shot just like anyone else or overpowered by two or three sisters.
That wasn't the Codex, but the GW website - and no, it did not mean numbers either, but specifically said that what allows the Sisters to catch up would be their intense faith.
As I said earlier, the way I'm reading this is that Marine combat efficiency goes: --------
Whereas, compared to that, the Sisters go: __*Act of Faith!*/\__
So, pretty much how it works in the game(s).
Wyzilla wrote:And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.
Not in GW's rules - both the TT and Inquisitor.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Psienesis wrote:Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
Prove that "small arms" in this context are laspistols and autoguns.
Apart from the numbers in that fluff quote reflecting the game mechanics, there is also the context of the sentence. "Reduces injuries against small arms by X, and provides some protection against more powerful stuff".
Also, when you think of "40k" and "small arms", what else could it be?
Void__Dragon wrote:a genetically and Warp engineered superman designed by the most brilliant scientific and psychic mind in human history
An ordinary high velocity rifle round would easily pass right through the skull of an Ork, or a Primarch, anyone who has ever been on a bullet penetration range could tell you that, and a bullet through the brain and out the back of the skull would give absolutely anything a headache.
An anti-material rifle, based on the fluff, would have its round flatten on impact upon a Primarch's skull.
Where is that written then did that actually happen in a novel? Im not doubting you, I'd just like to read it. I mean, it makes sense, like I said, BL writers clearly know feth all about actual guns and wars!
Regardless, the point I was making is that the fluff is purposely vague, so its hard for anyone to be right or anyone else to be wrong, from a common sense point of view, there is absolutely no way at all that an ordinary high velocity rifle wouldn't smash right through a Primarchs skull, do you know much about firearms? I didnt make my comment with reference to a book, just real life knowledge and common sense.
On a professional bullet pen range, you take some large wooden cubes, and place thick wooden boards separated by 6 inches of hard packed sand into them, and you then fire your weapons at them to see which has the best penetration. I fired all kinds of pistols and rifles into said boxes, and I even fired an old ass M1 Garand into one just for kicks, it was mainly for fun, but it teaches you something, mainly that your average screenwriter or director knows feth all about guns either.
Even a glock will usually smash two boards, I think a standard L2 went through like, 4 of them. If you fire a decent sized rifle, or heaven forbid something longer and larger, with a large caliber or with AP rounds, the thing will crack gak loads of them. You can easily kill people through cars, brick walls, trees, whatever.
The Primachs presumably have something akin to bone for their skeletal systems right? Same goes for Orks. We dont use elepthant guns because a regular rifle round will "bounce" off the elephant, ut simply because it is less cruel. You could easily kill an elephant with an M4.
Ergo, you could easily put down an Ork, or a Primarch, or a Space Marine, with a regular rifle.
Unless they have skeletal systems that are made from something tougher than steel plate (rounds go through steel plate as well by the way) at which point it would bring problems all of its own, because the cartilatege and such would not be able to move the muscle and blah blah blah blah
My point is, the fluff doesn't make sense, so why argue about fiction which isnt well enough explored for anyone to be right or wrong?
And I cant believe that I expended such effort on this topic, but I rather enjoyed it nonetheless.
Oh yeah, and I just read AURE by Abnett, and Gulliman kills 20 fully armed Alpha Legion guys with his bare hands, and afterwards, one of his advisors rebukes him and says that "One stray round to your head, and all of our dreams are dust" not "Ah well, they would just bonunce off your titanic skull my lord"
Which suggests that surely, they don't have skulls made of stronger than steel miracle alloys that nobody has mentioned, right?
Like I said, the fluff is deliberately ambiguous, but Mel had the right of it from a simple "real world common sense" POV.
The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Melissia wrote: The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Granted, some of the older (and I mean really old) GW fluff mentions the Primarchs not only as superhuman, but supernatural beings, empowered by the Warp itself and possessing a variety of powers obtained from this. It really depends on where you look - ironically, it seems that future publications made the Marines themselves out to be stronger, whereas the Primarchs got weaker.
And that's just talking about GW's own books - as mentioned before, every novel writer prolly has their own idea on the subject, too, much like the fans.
I do wonder if some of those writers were inspired by the older material, though. It could of course be as simple as a tendency of "one-upping" each other with supposed Epicness of such tales, but on the other hand it could simply be that just like any other fan they grew up on different material.
mattyrm wrote: Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Yeah, this is why firepower > biology.
Ever read the Salvation War series?
I haven't, whats the score? Actually, you best PM that, we don't want to drag this one OT its too enjoyable a read.
But the point is you are right on the money, in fact you clearly know more about war than all of our politicians.
Modern tech is the ultimate force multiplier, right on the money. A lucky las round hits Gulliman in the eye, and he goes down like a lead balloon, c'est la vie.
The invention of landmines and IED's has basically ensured that two of the most powerful military forces in the world (US/UK) have struggled to put down a bunch of illiterate fething idiots in 12 years. What other proof do people need?
Melissia wrote: The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Except it wouldn't. Again, Primarchs have tanked plasma cannons, bathing in lava, etc. The problem is that you think W40K is 'realistic' when it's science fantasy, not fiction, fantasy, much to a greater degree than Star Wars. They have access to what are quite flatly impossible elements, alloys, and composites that don't give a flying about firearms or heat, they tank it with at best a small scorch or scratch of paint. The primarchs are supernatural ubermen made with what is effectively technomancy, and if the Chaos Gods are to be believed, even created by stealing power from Chaos during their creation. They're not human. They're not really even mammals. They're literal demigods where one of their number can regenerate from nearly any wound wolverine-style.
Your trusty rifle would either harmless ping off their armor with a small pain scratch, cut a small wound in their flesh which is nearly instantly patched and healed by their unique organs (which are similar that to an astartes' but turned up to eleven). A rifle certainly isn't going to do anything when far more powerful weapons have failed to kill them, let alone mortally wound them.
Melissia wrote: The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Except it wouldn't.
It would if their bones are equivalent to bronze or brass. That gak is pretty fething soft compared to bone!
Melissia wrote: The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Except it wouldn't.
It would if their bones are equivalent to bronze or brass. That gak is pretty fething soft compared to bone!
Obviously. Bone's among some of the strongest material produced by organic beings besides cobwebs. Reminds me how people think gold would make great armor when Minecraft got it right that it'd be utter crap.
The best comparison I think one could make is some supernaturally good ceramic alloy like astartes or some funky form of CNT. We just don't know besides they're really, really strong.
Where is that written then did that actually happen in a novel? Im not doubting you, I'd just like to read it. I mean, it makes sense, like I said, BL writers clearly know feth all about actual guns and wars!
It was written when we see Angron withstood a bomb that destroyed a mountain and collapsed on him with no damage in False Gods, only to tear out in an explosion described as larger than the bomb itself.
Or when Vulkan withstood being hit by starship weaponry (A Macron cannon specifically IIRC).
Regardless, the point I was making is that the fluff is purposely vague, so its hard for anyone to be right or anyone else to be wrong, from a common sense point of view, there is absolutely no way at all that an ordinary high velocity rifle wouldn't smash right through a Primarchs skull, do you know much about firearms? I didnt make my comment with reference to a book, just real life knowledge and common sense.
I made my argument with the fact that the Primarchs are fictional supersoldiers made with actual magic and science that might as well be magic.
On a professional bullet pen range, you take some large wooden cubes, and place thick wooden boards separated by 6 inches of hard packed sand into them, and you then fire your weapons at them to see which has the best penetration. I fired all kinds of pistols and rifles into said boxes, and I even fired an old ass M1 Garand into one just for kicks, it was mainly for fun, but it teaches you something, mainly that your average screenwriter or director knows feth all about guns either.
Even a glock will usually smash two boards, I think a standard L2 went through like, 4 of them. If you fire a decent sized rifle, or heaven forbid something longer and larger, with a large caliber or with AP rounds, the thing will crack gak loads of them. You can easily kill people through cars, brick walls, trees, whatever.
K.
The Primachs presumably have something akin to bone for their skeletal systems right? Same goes for Orks. We dont use elepthant guns because a regular rifle round will "bounce" off the elephant, ut simply because it is less cruel. You could easily kill an elephant with an M4.
Ergo, you could easily put down an Ork, or a Primarch, or a Space Marine, with a regular rifle.
We have seen that, in the case of the Ork or Primarch at least (Accounts of Space Marines not wearing armour are extremely rare), that is not the case. Well, the Ork might die to enough headshots, but I digress.
Fulgrim, wearing a robe, withstood a full salvo of Sonic weaponry in The Mirror Crack'd, which were atomizing buildings within the same story.
Unless they have skeletal systems that are made from something tougher than steel plate (rounds go through steel plate as well by the way) at which point it would bring problems all of its own, because the cartilatege and such would not be able to move the muscle and blah blah blah blah
Clearly Primarch cartilage is both super tough yet still malleable enough to move.
My point is, the fluff doesn't make sense, so why argue about fiction which isnt well enough explored for anyone to be right or wrong?
Because we've seen Primarchs survive things far worse than an anti-material rifle.
A Raven Guard using a super cool future anti-material needle rifle actually shots Fulgrim in the bare temple. It deflects off his skull and eventually rests embedded on the other side of his skull.
Oh yeah, and I just read AURE by Abnett, and Gulliman kills 20 fully armed Alpha Legion guys with his bare hands, and afterwards, one of his advisors rebukes him and says that "One stray round to your head, and all of our dreams are dust" not "Ah well, they would just bonunce off your titanic skull my lord"
Space Marines are not infallible, and in several instances they have been known to underestimate even their own Primarchs, like in the case of Corax, who laughed off the notion that he needed a bodyguard, telling them it was just for appearances.
Like I said, the fluff is deliberately ambiguous, but Mel had the right of it from a simple "real world common sense" POV.
Right, because lasguns, next to bolters, are not the epitome of 40k small arms.
The percentage range provided by the Codex text fits to the weapon's profile both on the tabletop as well as the Inquisitor game. I take it that in your mind that is mere coincidence, then?
Well, we all see what we'd like to see.
Lynata wrote: Right, because lasguns, next to bolters, are not the epitome of 40k small arms.
The percentage range provided by the Codex text fits to the weapon's profile both on the tabletop as well as the Inquisitor game. I take it that in your mind that is mere coincidence, then?
Well, we all see what we'd like to see.
I don't care what the tabletop dictates. / shrugs
A lasgun is also not what Powered Armour was designed to combat, since the stuff was not meant to be used against other Imperials.
Also, keep the smugness to a minimum Lynata. The others here might not be wise to it, but I am.
Melissia wrote: But it was GW itself that made the comparison to the relatively soft metals.
So apparently, 40k is a universe where gold and bronze are better than steel
So all gold in W40K is a rare immensely dense and strong radioactive isotope that should kill everyone in vicinity? Good to know.
No, but it does apparently mean taht if you coat armor in it the armor becomes stronger!
Someone should send a message to the Swords of Epiphany advising them to sue for product malfunction then. All-gold armor didn't seem to work out well for them.
mattyrm wrote: Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Yeah, this is why firepower > biology.
Ever read the Salvation War series?
Not when said biology comes from a god for a father and effectively mother. Not to mention the massive amounts of psychic power infusions.
There is nothing on ground that can hope to contend with a Primarch in melee range.
It's not that hard to understand.
Not to mention the actual rules of Primarchs depicting them as tougher than land raiders. I mean a "headshot from a melta will kill a primarch" Nope Vulkan proceeds to laugh his ass off as the puny guardsmen has to get a 4 to wound and then get through a 3++. And the rules for special characters are toned down as a general rule.
Lynata wrote: Right, because lasguns, next to bolters, are not the epitome of 40k small arms.
The percentage range provided by the Codex text fits to the weapon's profile both on the tabletop as well as the Inquisitor game. I take it that in your mind that is mere coincidence, then?
Well, we all see what we'd like to see.
I don't care what the tabletop dictates. / shrugs
A lasgun is also not what Powered Armour was designed to combat, since the stuff was not meant to be used against other Imperials.
Also, keep the smugness to a minimum Lynata. The others here might not be wise to it, but I am.
How is it possible not to smell the smugness.
And again in every other source but codex fluff marines get severe burns from lasguns.
Perturabo ripped a Terminator Armor off clean with his bare hands
Russ fought on with a hole in his chest... i mean how many examples do we have to give..... seriously a sister or a marine could not mess with a primarch unless chaos amped or they have powerful weapons
Void__Dragon wrote:A lasgun is also not what Powered Armour was designed to combat
And is that your idea, or did you read that somewhere?
The Space Marines were the Emperor's tool for the Great Crusade, their purpose to bring lost human colonies back under Imperial control - and regardless of whether or not said planets actually had the necessary tech level to produce these weapons, it stands to reason the Emperor would assume that lasguns, being a Standard Template Construct supposedly distributed throughout the worlds he targeted, is exactly what would await his Legions.
Also, even if powered armour was not designed to protect against lasguns, would this not be an argument in favour of las weapons having a good effect on them?
Also, *I* care what the tabletop (and GW's other games) dictate - as I mentioned earlier, clear numbers and rules make for notably better material to go by as they avoid the possibility of information being twisted by propaganda, myth, exceptions, or simple plot-armour.
If you don't share this opinion, I guess we can only agree to disagree. In the end, all I'm asking is that we all recognise each other's opinion as just as valid instead of trying to enforce one's own idea no matter what.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, keep the smugness to a minimum Lynata. The others here might not be wise to it, but I am.
Sarcasm is my way of dealing with this kind of obstinacy. I can only maintain a honest effort to convey what I believe to be interesting and useful information for so long, and truth be told, ever since you've tried telling me that, in your mind, Dorn could have died being shot by "a hundred lascannons", after having "become tired" due to having to fight his way through "a hundred Bloodthirsters", I am not sure how serious I should take your posts.
Maybe that was your form of sarcasm, and in some wicked way you perceive me just as I perceive you. If that's the case, I guess we just have a bad chemistry.
Void__Dragon wrote:A lasgun is also not what Powered Armour was designed to combat
And is that your idea, or did you read that somewhere?
The Space Marines were the Emperor's tool for the Great Crusade, their purpose to bring lost human colonies back under Imperial control - and regardless of whether or not said planets actually had the necessary tech level to produce these weapons, it stands to reason the Emperor would assume that lasguns, being a Standard Template Construct supposedly distributed throughout the worlds he targeted, is exactly what would await his Legions.
Also, even if powered armour was not designed to protect against lasguns, would this not be an argument in favour of las weapons having a good effect on them?
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, keep the smugness to a minimum Lynata. The others here might not be wise to it, but I am.
Sarcasm is my way of dealing with this kind of obstinacy. I can only maintain a honest effort to convey what I believe to be interesting and useful information for so long, and truth be told, ever since you've tried telling me that, in your mind, Dorn could have died being shot by "a hundred lascannons", after having "become tired" due to having to fight his way through "a hundred Bloodthirsters", I am not sure how serious I should take your posts.
Maybe that was your form of sarcasm, and in some wicked way you perceive me just as I perceive you. If that's the case, I guess we just have a bad chemistry.
are you honestly trying to say the primarchs are weak man after we give you feat after feat
Melissia wrote: The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Except it wouldn't. Again, Primarchs have tanked plasma cannons, bathing in lava, etc. The problem is that you think W40K is 'realistic' when it's science fantasy, not fiction, fantasy, much to a greater degree than Star Wars. They have access to what are quite flatly impossible elements, alloys, and composites that don't give a flying about firearms or heat, they tank it with at best a small scorch or scratch of paint. The primarchs are supernatural ubermen made with what is effectively technomancy, and if the Chaos Gods are to be believed, even created by stealing power from Chaos during their creation. They're not human. They're not really even mammals. They're literal demigods where one of their number can regenerate from nearly any wound wolverine-style.
Your trusty rifle would either harmless ping off their armor with a small pain scratch, cut a small wound in their flesh which is nearly instantly patched and healed by their unique organs (which are similar that to an astartes' but turned up to eleven). A rifle certainly isn't going to do anything when far more powerful weapons have failed to kill them, let alone mortally wound them.
This is wonderfully well said and a good analysis. Have an exalt.
Melissia wrote: The primarchs, like most space marines had something like bronze or brass for bones, according to descriptions I remember. OR equivalent to such anyway.
Which is stupid. Bones are stronger than either bronze or brass. Bones are actually stronger than steel by weight.
Yeah and the point is, my trusty rifle would blast straight though a primachs swede, bronze or brass or otherwise.
Except it wouldn't. Again, Primarchs have tanked plasma cannons, bathing in lava, etc. The problem is that you think W40K is 'realistic' when it's science fantasy, not fiction, fantasy, much to a greater degree than Star Wars. They have access to what are quite flatly impossible elements, alloys, and composites that don't give a flying about firearms or heat, they tank it with at best a small scorch or scratch of paint. The primarchs are supernatural ubermen made with what is effectively technomancy, and if the Chaos Gods are to be believed, even created by stealing power from Chaos during their creation. They're not human. They're not really even mammals. They're literal demigods where one of their number can regenerate from nearly any wound wolverine-style.
Your trusty rifle would either harmless ping off their armor with a small pain scratch, cut a small wound in their flesh which is nearly instantly patched and healed by their unique organs (which are similar that to an astartes' but turned up to eleven). A rifle certainly isn't going to do anything when far more powerful weapons have failed to kill them, let alone mortally wound them.
This is wonderfully well said and a good analysis. Have an exalt.
thats true..the only time really a regular human or a marine has bested a primarch was when they were chaos amped or had a special weapon......
LightKing wrote:your going on about how a marine or a sister could beat a primarch in a battle....
No, that was not what I was talking about at all. That being said, I would not discount the possibility - as Psienesis has said, the weapons in this setting make for a great equaliser.
I don't see how this would make a Primarch "weak", though. Unless you see this not in a comparative manner, but rather that anything but invulnerability or nigh-invulnerability is "weak".
When I'm looking at Alpharius first meeting with Horus as described in the Index Astartes, I see a Primarch being wounded by small arms of human bridge officers - and to me, anything that can be wounded can also be killed. Because then it becomes only a question of how many bullets you need, and/or where exactly they hit.
Wyzilla wrote: The problem is that you think W40K is 'realistic' when it's science fantasy, not fiction, fantasy, much to a greater degree than Star Wars.
40k is whatever you want it to be. The "problem" is that a whole lot of people do not realise this, even though several GW designers, novel authors, and Black Library editors have attempted to explain this.
Like I said, the fluff is deliberately ambiguous, but Mel had the right of it from a simple "real world common sense" POV.
40k is not the real world.
Exactly, so why did you attempt to pick my post apart by using real world equations? You start going on about "cartilage is both super tough yet still malleable enough to move" and then end with "its not the real world" basically making your entire post pointless. Yes, it isnt the real world, we agree, and that was the point I was making, you don't need to worry about malleable cartilage or titanium bones, you just, you know.. read it and enjoy it. The whole point of my post was that if you try to apply real world biology or physics, absolutely nothing at all makes any sense, so its silly to argue about things like "who would win in a fight" or "who can run the fastest" or what have you.
Oh regards Vulkan surviving all kinds of crazy gak, have you not read An Unremembered Empire?
Spoiler:
Vulkan survives fething EVERYTHING because the guy is basically utterly immortal. He actually cant be killed, and Curze tortures him and kills him over and over again attempting to figure out why, he is literally unkillable by conventional means because once he dies, he gets back up again. He plummets through the atmosphere in flames after falling out of space, is pronounced dead, and then gets back up again a little later.
And even when he eventually gets killed by unconvetional means, "magic spirit dagger" you know as soon as the magic dagger gets removed in a later book he is going to be getting back up because he tells Guilliman AFTER the emperor is dead not to split his legion up, which infers the guy gets his mind back together and has indeed lived through his 50th killing
LightKing wrote:your going on about how a marine or a sister could beat a primarch in a battle....
No, that was not what I was talking about at all. That being said, I would not discount the possibility - as Psienesis has said, the weapons in this setting make for a great equaliser.
I don't see how this would make a Primarch "weak", though. Unless you see this not in a comparative manner, but rather that anything but invulnerability or nigh-invulnerability is "weak".
When I'm looking at Alpharius first meeting with Horus as described in the Index Astartes, I see a Primarch being wounded by small arms of human bridge officers - and to me, anything that can be wounded can also be killed. Because then it becomes only a question of how many bullets you need, and/or where exactly they hit.
Wyzilla wrote: The problem is that you think W40K is 'realistic' when it's science fantasy, not fiction, fantasy, much to a greater degree than Star Wars.
40k is whatever you want it to be. The "problem" is that a whole lot of people do not realise this, even though several GW designers, novel authors, and Black Library editors have attempted to explain this.
There's ignoring canon, and then there's outright ignoring everything and living in a delusional false image of what it even is- like thinking Halo or Star Wars is hard sci fi. W40K is a black comedy with satire served everywhere and everything being a parody to some degree. Thinking otherwise is similar to those people that don't understand that Stephan Colbert is a character.
LightKing wrote: why is this a silly debate? i like a good debate?
It is a silly debate.
All factions in the setting are described in bombastic terms, presenting them as nearly unstoppable. It is impossible to determine who is the best. It all boils down to people who hasn´t read the fluff of the other faction claiming "my faction is the beeeessttt!!". Sure, some of us are giving official quotes and stuff. But to no avail.
I meant he [Curze] wasn't the strongest or toughest. He was the 2nd fastest (Sanguinius was faster, right?), the most unpredictable, one of the smartest, and arguably the best weapon handler.
At the risk of turning this into a Primarch discussion, I don´t see where are you getting this from. The "who is the most X Primarch" threads are just like this one. It is really hard to catalogue the Primarchs, and people end up claiming that "X is more Z than Y" without any real reason.
However, Curze was described as an awful duelist compared with the Lion. He pummeled Dorn to near death with ease (after a sucker punch attack), so he is supposed to be quite strong and fast. I am not sure Sanguinius is faster than, say, Corax or Fulgrim, unless you are referring to his wings. And Curze was insane, unpredictable doesn´t really apply. Smart? He was able to see the future (part of it), but I don´t see him as particularly brilliant in any field.
Some BL writers said that all Primarchs are more of less at the same level and any duel between them depends on the context.
Wyzilla wrote: And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.
(And Orks just get burnt skin.)
Where do people get this stuff? There are perhaps hundreds of sources showing guardsmen killing Orks with Lasguns. How are they supposed to fight Orks otherwise? They die until the Space Marines appear? And an overheated lasgun can go through Power Armour as if it were butter. And the same go for Marines.
In my final opinion: A sister has 0 chance one on one with a marine in any contest or circumstance. And there are more marines than sisters. There.
Your final opinion has zero relation with the background.
See the quotes posted on previous pages: all Codexes that mention the Sisters say otherwise ("equal to Marines"). As do most books, most RPG games and all Videogames to date. Feel free to provide a single quote claiming otherwise.
While the fluff is big enough that nobody can be really "wrong" while expressing an opinion, all of you claiming that Sisters (which job is, among others, killing renegade Marines) have zero chances against Marines are yet to find a single quote that depicts the Sisters as far inferior than Marines, yet other people has provided scores of official sources claiming otherwise.
Or when Vulkan withstood being hit by starship weaponry (A Macron cannon specifically IIRC).
It is sad, but this is a bad example. I am specifically avoiding using examples of Vulcan being defeated, wounded or worse, out of respect for the character. If you ignore what I am talking about, I envy you, and I would recommend you not to read neither "Vulkan Lives!" nor "Unremembered Empire".
What mattyrm said. In adition,
Spoiler:
Do you remember the character Claire Bennet from Heros? The cheerleader. She was impossible to kill so the script killed her over and over and over again pushing it to stupid levels. They did the same to Vulkan. He dies, and dies, and dies, and dies, and dies, and dies...
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit. (And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
I'm talking about a modern one. It'd harmlessly ping off the armor. And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned. (And Orks just get burnt skin.)
That doesn't make any sense. If lasguns did jack against orks, why bother giving them to the IG? The orks are the most common xeno enemy the IoM face, so giving your soldiers weapons that do not harm them would be idiotic. It would be like the US army being out-fitted with pop guns.
Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.
ThePrimordial wrote: Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.
Source?
The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.
But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.
I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?
Wyzilla wrote: (...) W40K is a black comedy with satire served everywhere and everything being a parody to some degree. (...)
That´s true.
However, it is easy to forget, mostly because all the grimdark and because most humor is English humor with witty references to stuff that is no longer there.
ThePrimordial wrote: Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.
Source?
The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.
But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.
I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?
Wyzilla wrote: (...) W40K is a black comedy with satire served everywhere and everything being a parody to some degree. (...)
That´s true.
However, it is easy to forget, mostly because all the grimdark and because most humor is English humor with witty references to stuff that is no longer there.
Look at James Swallow's fear to tread and anything featuring Sanguinus.
ThePrimordial wrote: Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.
Source?
The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.
But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.
I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?
Look at James Swallow's fear to tread and anything featuring Sanguinus.
I know the novel. I actually mentioned it in my post, something you clearly missed.
Here is link to the BL: http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/fear-to-tread.html Look at the summary: "the Blood Angels must face all the warp-spawned armies of Chaos, as well their own personal daemons, upon the blasted plains of Signus Prime"
Sanguinius does not even fight Astartes in this novel. It says nothing about the Battle of Terra and the defense of the Imperial Palace. It is about the battle of Signus Prime. Seven years before Terra.
By the way, I am pretty sure I have read lots and lots of stuff about Sanguinius, including the novel Fear to Thread. And I have never heard anything of him fighting thousands of marines by himself or moving at supersonic speed. It sounds quite silly to me, like some fan-fiction. I am open to the possibility that you know a source new to me. But you are not saying it. And what is worse, you are referring to a source that says the opposite you are claiming. You have mistaken this novel with another novel... I hope.
When I asked for a source, I didn´t mean "say a book you know the name and hope I did not read it". This usually does not work.
ThePrimordial wrote: Sanguinius moves fast enough for his every movement to be blurred, and creates shockwaves with his movements. Yes he moves at Mach speeds.
He also singlehandedly fought back 10's of thousands of traitors on the steps of the palace at the battle of Terra.
Source?
The Blood Angels Legion was in charge of the defense of the Gates of Eternity, one of the key-points of the Imperial Palace. They hold the position against the World Eaters and a swarm of chaos followers and Daemons. Great deeds of unmatched heroism were done during the battle, and the tale as written in Visions of Heresy (old version) depicts Sanguinius as one of the greatest heroes in the Imperium. It is truly amazing and I recommend any fan to get a copy of that book.
But.
1) He was at the head of his Legion. Given that we have squads of marines fighting Primarchs in other sources it would be really strange if Sanguinius alone, all of a sudden, started fighting thousands of marines.
2) Most of the story was retconned by James Swallow in the nefarious "Fear to Thread", a book about the battle on Signus Prime. He changed most plots that ended in the Gate of Eternity. We don´t really know what happened in the Gates of Eternity now.
3) I do believe he was never described as moving at supersonic speed. Seems rather silly to me, the kind of "Superman-like" feature that would turn a Primarch into a lame, boring, stupid character.
I could be wrong, though. Source? Where did you read that?
Look at James Swallow's fear to tread and anything featuring Sanguinus.
I know the novel. I actually mentioned it in my post, something you clearly missed.
Here is link to the BL: http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/fear-to-tread.html Look at the summary: "the Blood Angels must face all the warp-spawned armies of Chaos, as well their own personal daemons, upon the blasted plains of Signus Prime"
Sanguinius does not even fight Astartes in this novel. It says nothing about the Battle of Terra and the defense of the Imperial Palace. It is about the battle of Signus Prime. Seven years before Terra.
By the way, I am pretty sure I have read lots and lots of stuff about Sanguinius, including the novel Fear to Thread. And I have never heard anything of him fighting thousands of marines by himself or moving at supersonic speed. It sounds quite silly to me, like some fan-fiction. I am open to the possibility that you know a source new to me. But you are not saying it. And what is worse, you are referring to a source that says the opposite you are claiming. You have mistaken this novel with another novel... I hope.
When I asked for a source, I didn´t mean "say a book you know the name and hope I did not read it". This usually does not work.
I know you read the book. Sanguinius again appears blurred to astartes in his movements, and creates shockwaves with his attacks.
Wyzilla wrote:There's ignoring canon, and then there's outright ignoring everything and living in a delusional false image of what it even is
There's also the delusion that "canon" even exists, and ignoring what the writers themselves have said about the sources you cling to.
By now, this entire debate is pointless - we have people desperately attempting to enforce their personally preferred interpretation as the one and only truth, and then we have people who have accepted that the background is malleable and tells you different things depending on the material you're looking at.
There does not seem to be a common ground here anymore, is there?
I can only hope that, as Troike said earlier, some readers would have at least taken some useful information away from this embarrassing thread.
I know you read the book. Sanguinius again appears blurred to astartes in his movements, and creates shockwaves with his attacks.
And?
Supersonic speed and fighting thousands of marines by himself?
Eldar appear blurred to humans too, specially Dark Eldars. Even when they record them, they need to speed down the video to actually see what are they doing. And shockwaves are created by any explosion or strong attack. It has nothing to do with moving at over 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s), which would be an incredibly brutal power.
The closest thing to this in the setting is a human, the Inquisitor Quixos, another example of a "mere human" that went far beyond most Marines can ever dream.
Lynata wrote: (...)
I can only hope that, as Troike said earlier, some readers would have at least taken some useful information away from this embarrassing thread.
Actually, LightKing has already created a new thread:
Lord Spartacus wrote:Honestly all ''vs'' debates are pointless.
Point taken - especially when comparing different settings though. I cringe every time I see one of those threads here.
But yes, I suppose they kind of bring out the worst in people, pitting fan against fan by having them toss their favoured sources at each other, with the only thing that matters being the number of posters taking one's side in an effort to drown the opposition out.
da001 wrote: Eldar appear blurred to humans too, specially Dark Eldars. Even when they record them, they need to speed down the video to actually see what are they doing. And shockwaves are created by any explosion or strong attack. It has nothing to do with moving at over 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s), which would be an incredibly brutal power.
TBH any melee attack that doesn't involve a grip or dramatically impaling someone and posing might be blurred to people observing it. Bruce Lee wasn't "ordinary people" but he was just a man, and as I recall they had to ask him to slow down in fight scenes so the audience had a chance to see what he did.
Just to point out something, logically Lasguns should be rather useless against power armour. They have very little penetration and deal their damage with heat. Yes, heat. Against a ceramic material. Lasguns are perhaps very very very hot, seeing as they are future weapons, but in the same way PA is future armour.
Ceramics are simply eccelent at resisting and isolating from heat because they are forged in über-heat in the first place. PA does seem to hard counter las-weapons from what I can see.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Just to point out something, logically Lasguns should be rather useless against power armour. They have very little penetration and deal their damage with heat. Yes, heat. Against a ceramic material. Lasguns are perhaps very very very hot, seeing as they are future weapons, but in the same way PA is future armour.
Ceramics are simply eccelent at resisting and isolating from heat because they are forged in über-heat in the first place. PA does seem to hard counter las-weapons from what I can see.
Actually, iirc, lasguns don't kill a SM by penetrating the armor. What happens is that a beam slips through a joint or gap in the armor from time to time, where it isn't as well covered with ceramite as the rest of the armor.
Modern .50? Probably, given the insane range of Space Marine feats. Mid range it might take a chunk out of the face, but high end? They probably wouldn't even land the hit.
(And then there's the question if he's got his helmet on or not, which would cleanly deflect a .50 with a paint scratch.)
Power Armor only stops 85% of laspistol and autogun rounds. An anti-material rifle is going to blow right through it.
I'm talking about a modern one. It'd harmlessly ping off the armor. And lasguns can't kill Astartes without concentrated fire on flesh anyway. Otherwise their armor simply gets mildly scorched by lasguns or their sensors are stunned.
(And Orks just get burnt skin.)
That doesn't make any sense. If lasguns did jack against orks, why bother giving them to the IG? The orks are the most common xeno enemy the IoM face, so giving your soldiers weapons that do not harm them would be idiotic. It would be like the US army being out-fitted with pop guns.
Because it's cheaper to mass produce humans than it is to mass produce quality weapons. They do however kill with concentrated fire or full auto on an Ork, but several blasts aren't going to kill it.
(Doesn't help that Orks don't really have vital organs and their brains can be missed despite shooting them in the head.)
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Just to point out something, logically Lasguns should be rather useless against power armour. They have very little penetration and deal their damage with heat. Yes, heat. Against a ceramic material. Lasguns are perhaps very very very hot, seeing as they are future weapons, but in the same way PA is future armour.
Ceramics are simply eccelent at resisting and isolating from heat because they are forged in über-heat in the first place. PA does seem to hard counter las-weapons from what I can see.
Actually, iirc, lasguns don't kill a SM by penetrating the armor. What happens is that a beam slips through a joint or gap in the armor from time to time, where it isn't as well covered with ceramite as the rest of the armor.
Regarless of the way, we know Lasguns kill Orks and Marines, because all fluff regarding the Imperial Guard and Traitor Guard / Lost of the Damned has them using Lasguns to kill Orks and Marines. And it applies too to all descriptions of the setting in all media: RPG, books, videogames, the tabletop.
What really bugs me is how would anyone like the concept of Space Marines heroically charging against a regiment of traitor guardsmen through heavy Lasgun fire if they believe Lasguns are totally useless against Power Armour. That´s your definition of heroism?
That´s the definition of lame. Astartes would be... bullies, pricks, I don´t know, but definitely not heroes. And the Imperial Guard would be a bunch of morons shooting their flashlights.
And it is even worse if you manage to believe that Lasguns do not kill Orks. That´s the second main enemy of the guard. Countless battles in countless wars across the galaxy have the Hammer of the Emperor using Lasguns against Orks.
And the funniest thing is that some people claiming this is claiming that sisters are little more than guardsmen, when, since they use Power Armour, if this absurdity were true then they would be able to face a million guards and kill them all while remaining unscathed.
And, as Bobthehero said, a hotshot lasgun can go though Power Armour as if it is not there. Let alone plasma or melta.
@BrotherHaraldus: I am still waiting the first issue of Tentacles and Iron. By the way I took the liberty to add some reasonable, not over the top stuff to the background of your first daughter with Void__Dragon, Macarena. It is on page 13 and page 14 on this same thread. Perhaps you missed it. I started with her death, we can always get her back if needed. The only think I have yet to think about is how she entered a Sisters of Battle order in spite of her obvious, embarrassing, foul-smelling, sticky, pulsating, sexually attractive & active, highly evident mutations.
da001 wrote:Regarless of the way, we know Lasguns kill Orks and Marines, because all fluff regarding the Imperial Guard and Traitor Guard / Lost of the Damned has them using Lasguns to kill Orks and Marines. And it applies too to all descriptions of the setting in all media: RPG, books, videogames, the tabletop.
They do have a point in that some fluff (novels and FW army books) contradicts the studio material, so once again it comes down to what people "grew up" with.
The way a lasgun works in GW's world is that the intense energy beam causes the target zone to heat up, causing a small explosion as the material expands. It doesn't work as well against power armour due to its honeycomb structure and ceramite layer, but depending on the exact spot where the blast hits (previously damaged area, or just a spot where the armour is not "up to an inch" thick), there's still a ~15% chance that it will cause sufficient localised damage to punch through and injure the wearer. On average, Marines can take such injuries better than the average human, but this too depends on where exactly they're hit, and/or how many injuries they have already suffered.
This is nicely portrayed in the rules for GW's Inquisitor game, though with a bit of skullsweat it is not too difficult to apply the same background to the abstracted tabletop rules as well to justify/explain the small chance of an IG trooper mini to take down a Marine.
Totally agree about the "heroism" bit, by the way. Well said.
da001 wrote:Regarless of the way, we know Lasguns kill Orks and Marines, because all fluff regarding the Imperial Guard and Traitor Guard / Lost of the Damned has them using Lasguns to kill Orks and Marines. And it applies too to all descriptions of the setting in all media: RPG, books, videogames, the tabletop.
They do have a point in that some fluff (novels and FW army books) contradicts the studio material, so once again it comes down to what people "grew up" with.
The way a lasgun works in GW's world is that the intense energy beam causes the target zone to heat up, causing a small explosion as the material expands. It doesn't work as well against power armour due to its honeycomb structure and ceramite layer, but depending on the exact spot where the blast hits (previously damaged area, or just a spot where the armour is not "up to an inch" thick), there's still a ~15% chance that it will cause sufficient localised damage to punch through and injure the wearer. On average, Marines can take such injuries better than the average human, but this too depends on where exactly they're hit, and/or how many injuries they have already suffered.
This is nicely portrayed in the rules for GW's Inquisitor game, though with a bit of skullsweat it is not too difficult to apply the same background to the abstracted tabletop rules as well to justify/explain the small chance of an IG trooper mini to take down a Marine.
Totally agree about the "heroism" bit, by the way. Well said.
The fact is: they have a chance. And it is not that small: about 12% in the tabletop, 15% in other sources. It doesn´t actually matter how they work. A Marine is risking his life when charging against a position hold by mere humans with Lasguns.
Coming to think of it, I never found interesting the explanation of how a Lasgun (or any other futuristic gizmo) work. I mean the details. It is all made on the spot, with people who usually lack a scientific career talking about technology 40000 years in the future, who is expressed through legends, half-lies and tales. We wouldn´t be able to understand how it works even if it was correctly explained.
I know you read the book. Sanguinius again appears blurred to astartes in his movements, and creates shockwaves with his attacks.
And?
Supersonic speed and fighting thousands of marines by himself?
Eldar appear blurred to humans too, specially Dark Eldars. Even when they record them, they need to speed down the video to actually see what are they doing. And shockwaves are created by any explosion or strong attack. It has nothing to do with moving at over 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s), which would be an incredibly brutal power.
The closest thing to this in the setting is a human, the Inquisitor Quixos, another example of a "mere human" that went far beyond most Marines can ever dream.
it seems like your on this"champion humans phase"
you honestly believe a human can match the primarchs, demigods/mini-emperors
sanguinius is too fast, he would cut tens of humans up before they can react
@BrotherHaraldus: I am still waiting the first issue of Tentacles and Iron. By the way I took the liberty to add some reasonable, not over the top stuff to the background of your first daughter with Void__Dragon, Macarena. It is on page 13 and page 14 on this same thread. Perhaps you missed it. I started with her death, we can always get her back if needed. The only think I have yet to think about is how she entered a Sisters of Battle order in spite of her obvious, embarrassing, foul-smelling, sticky, pulsating, sexually attractive & active, highly evident mutations.
I tried, but the very moment I saved the document a squad of Grey Knights teleported in and deleted it while hosing my poor laptop with a big flamethrower, shouting 'BY FIRE BE PURGED' or something like that. They bullied me into not rewriting it...
And tabletop rules? Really? This does not look like a '3+ to wound' to me. Note how he even shoots straight through the breastplate...
@BrotherHaraldus: I am still waiting the first issue of Tentacles and Iron. By the way I took the liberty to add some reasonable, not over the top stuff to the background of your first daughter with Void__Dragon, Macarena. It is on page 13 and page 14 on this same thread. Perhaps you missed it. I started with her death, we can always get her back if needed. The only think I have yet to think about is how she entered a Sisters of Battle order in spite of her obvious, embarrassing, foul-smelling, sticky, pulsating, sexually attractive & active, highly evident mutations.
I tried, but the very moment I saved the document a squad of Grey Knights teleported in and deleted it while hosing my poor laptop with a big flamethrower, shouting 'BY FIRE BE PURGED' or something like that. They bullied me into not rewriting it...
And tabletop rules? Really? This does not look like a '3+ to wound' to me.
The CSM obviously rolled a natural 10 for damage. Bolters deal, what, 1D10 + 5 damage, with 4 armor penetration? That totally ignores the guards flak armor and deals critical wounds.
Now, let's see whose familiar with Dark Heresy in this thread
LightKing wrote: and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?
da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...
You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?
He's not interested in an honest debate at this point; he keeps deliberately misinterpreting what people say in order to make ridiculously silly strawman arguments. Like he claimed that I said "a meltagun to the face would kill a primarch" that this meant that I said a common conscript would always beat a primarch one on one in hand to hand combat.
I'd say it's getting ridiculous but I'm not sure it ever wasn't.
LightKing wrote: and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?
da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...
You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?
did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001
Quoting could help.
"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "
LightKing wrote: and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?
da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...
You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?
did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001
Quoting could help.
"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "
LightKing wrote: and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?
da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...
You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?
did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001
Quoting could help.
"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "
LightKing wrote: and people said no one said a sister could beat a primarch?
da001 has said a sister could beat a primarch and was more powerful then them...
You...really have no grasp of sarcasm do you?
did he or did he not say a sister is more powerful then a primarch? da001
Quoting could help.
"Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal. "
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A [/b]psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This was after 20 times saying to him "I didn´t say that".
It is pretty obvious that Space Marines are stronger than Sisters, but there is a huge psychological dimension to combat, and Sisters would be sustained by their faith in the Emporer.
It could go either way, depending on luck and circumstances.
up man, phase weaponry is a power weapon that vibrates between different dimensions. It sure as 
They bullied me into not rewriting it...
