i guess in fluff, SOB have always been = to Space Marines

is this true.?


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in terms of combat prowless

invidivudally a sister vs. an astarte

Probably not. Sisters don't get the implants that space marines do.

Cleanse_and_burn wrote:
Probably not. Sisters don't get the implants that space marines do.

i meant in combat, not genetically...

in single combat a sister vs. an astarte

But it's in part their genetic implants that let them be tougher. I mean they are literally connected to their armour through the Black carapace. This lets them move their in their armour a LOT easier and thats just one the many implants.
So no I don't think a SOB could beat a SM in combat.

Space Marines have more strength and toughness than a Sister of Battle. Sisters sit between IG vets and Space Marines.

Not at all. Sisters are a little better than Arbites basically.

Sororitas are generally Marines +1, as far as the fluff is concerned.

In single combat, a Sister's superior faith, training and equipment would give her the win, though a Marine could feasibly win via out-strategizing her, given he has some prep.

Space Marines hold the advantage in strength, durability, endurance, speed, reaction-time, equipment, and likely martial and ballistic skill.

Sisters have the Acts of Faith.

Do they bridge the gap? Who knows?

Nope, they lack the enhanced strength, speed, toughness and enhanced senses of a marine, as well as all the other goodies like black carapace and memory theft. The marines will also have the edge in training and likely experience.

Just kidding. Space Marines are superior to Sisters in everything except faith I guess.

In a one-on-one fight, in a vacuum, an Astartes would romp a Sister. In a real combat scenario, it depends on the individuals, with marines having the advantage. Armed with bolters, either one could feasibly kill the other.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Just kidding. Space Marines are superior to Sisters in everything except faith I guess.

In a one-on-one fight, in a vacuum, an Astartes would romp a Sister. In a real combat scenario, it depends on the individuals, with marines having the advantage. Armed with bolters, either one could feasibly kill the other.

or feesable not kill the other as boltguns aren't nesscarily the ideal "power armor popper"

Again, read the fluff. All of the genetic modifications that a Marine has is solely to make them better in combat. Otherwise there would be no point in modding them.

1 on 1, a space marine will slaughter a sister.

The sisters have 2 advantages - Numbers and Faith.

Are they more numerous?

There are like, 6 major orders right? And each of roughly 3000?

That leaves a lot for them to reach the Astartes' 1 million, assuming the SoB are not 99,9% minor orders.

IDK really, Sisters are not my speciality.

Heh, thought they were. Their organisation isn't entirely clear. From what I found on wiki, if you were to just count the Major Order, then I think there's something like 6000 sisters.

However, there are a bunch of other orders and parts of the Adepta Sororitas as well.

Wait, there a million Space Marines? That number seems a little high. I thought it was closer to 10,000.

According to the latest SoB Codex ther is an unknown number of SoB. Each of the major order is split into a number of different sections each of which can number up to 1000 sisters.

There is no mention of how many segments there are per order.

Though since they have to enforce the Ecclesiarchies will throughout the entire Imperium as well as going on crusades and guarding shrine worlds (The largest of which can have up to 1000 sisters guarding them) I would assume there is no shortage of sisters.

 Mythantor wrote:
According to the latest SoB Codex ther is an unknown number of SoB. Each of the major order is split into a number of different sections each of which can number up to 1000 sisters.

There is no mention of how many segments there are per order.

Though since they have to enforce the Ecclesiarchies will throughout the entire Imperium as well as going on crusades and guarding shrine worlds (The largest of which can have up to 1000 sisters guarding them) I would assume there is no shortage of sisters.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. The wikia wasn't entire clear on the structure.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Heh, thought they were. Their organisation isn't entirely clear. From what I found on wiki, if you were to just count the Major Order, then I think there's something like 6000 sisters.

However, there are a bunch of other orders and parts of the Adepta Sororitas as well.

Wait, there a million Space Marines? That number seems a little high. I thought it was closer to 10,000.

There are supposedly a thousand chapters, each comprising of roughly a thousand marines.

Yes, roughly one million Marines are supposed to be in existence. Really shows their role as super-elites, one million sufficing for the massive Imperium!

LightKing wrote:i guess in fluff, SOB have always been = to Space Marines
is this true?

Now, that depends entirely on who writes the fluff - both about the Sisters as well as the Marines. A question like this taps into the perception of not only one but two forces.

Games Workshop once had this on their website:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
- src

To propose an argument based around this notion, consider that the vast majority of a Space Marine's implants, just like most of the additional gadgets of his power armour, are highly circumstantial - abilities like spitting acid, being able to gain another's memory by eating their brains, or putting yourself in artificial coma may give you an edge in very specific situations, but won't mean squat in a straight shoot-out. What might aid the Marine here are his reinforced bones, the fast-clotting blood, the secondary heart and his genetically enhanced physical strength.

However, one of 40k's most important themes is the terrible destructive power of its futuristic weaponry, and even ceramic-reinforced bones may not stop an armour-piercing miniature missile with an explosive warhead, whereas the heart and the blood are more about making sure the Marine does not die from critical injury rather than being able to prevent them.
The Sororitas, on the other hand, even though having trained for a longer time than the Marine (assuming they are both of the same age), is still a pure human being behind an equally protective suit of armour, which means that anything that punches through that inch of ceramite will ultimately hurt her a lot more than it would hurt the Marine. Yet, what the aforementioned quote is referring to is a Sister's ability to channel her faith in a way that lets her potentially ignore these injuries and just keep moving and fighting even though she is mortally wounded.
Ultimately, this creates the possibility of a Marine and a Sister both "surviving" the same kind of physical punishment, with the Sister dying after the battle has ended whereas the Marine can be medevac'ed and returned to active duty after some time in his Chapter's apothecarion. In tabletop terms, this is represented with the Marine's more reliable T4 as opposed to a T3 Sister's potentially more powerful but less reliable Shield of Faith.

tl;dr: Generally, I would say that Sisters of Battle, lacking the genetic enhancements of the Space Marines, are overall less capable, but that their Acts of Faith allow them to temporarily surpass even the Astartes. In a way, that may well suffice to say they are equal - in-universe, both forces at least share respect for each other, and one of the Sisterhood's tasks is hunting down rogue Astartes Chapters.

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."
- 2E C:SoB


Obviously, with the fluff being somewhat malleable and open for interpretation, GW's vision of the Sororitas may not be shared by everyone. Certain Black Library novels in particular paint the Sisters in a much less capable way, usually to make the Marines look more awesome (*coughcough*). In the end, the Sisters are about as equal as you, the individual gamer and reader, want them to be.

Mythantor wrote:According to the latest SoB Codex ther is an unknown number of SoB. Each of the major order is split into a number of different sections each of which can number up to 1000 sisters.

Not quite - you are referring to the Minor Orders, which have split off from the Major ones. These subsidiary conventy can vary in strength from 1.000 members to a single Sister, with the average at about a hundred. They operate independently from the Major Orders and tend to be limited to local operations, lacking both the (wo)manpower and the means to participate in the really big conflicts, which is why you tend to only ever read about the six Major Orders (each of whom "currently" has about ~3.500 Sisters, though at peak times this number has been known to rise to 6.000).

The total number of Minor Orders is unknown - one could theorise based on the 2.500 years it took the Sororitas to reach the 30.000 mark, or on GW's force disposition charts for the Third Armageddon War and the 13th Black Crusade, but ultimately it remains a matter of speculation. My own guesstimate is at around 100k, maybe 200k. The Major Orders, being a crusading force, are bound to have a lot of attrition, which is why earlier Codex fluff mentioned their numbers fluctuating so much, posing a constant drain on the influx of new recruits from the Schola Progenium.

 Mythantor wrote:
Each of the major order is split into a number of different sections each of which can number up to 1000 sisters.

There is no mention of how many segments there are per order.

Not quite. The way it's organised is that there's six Major Orders. These Major Orders are the main ones, numbering 4000 to 7000 Sisters depending on recruitment and casualties (I think there was a more exact number given, but I can't remember it. Here is a picture of them:


Then, there's Minor Orders. These are detachments of Sisters from a Major Order that have "settled down" to guard somewhere specifically (these were what you meant by "segments", I think). Eventually, they "split off" when they start to develop their own unique heraldies and identities, becoming a Minor Order rather than just a detatchment from a Major Order. They can number from 100 to 1000 Sisters, and there are an unknown number of Minor Orders in the galaxy, so we don't know the total numbers of SoBs.

Though, Orders are sometimes sort of split into "segments", when a part of it is deployed somewhere. From the Lexicanum.

Order - Led by the head Canoness, called the Canoness Superior, who runs the entire Order.
Preceptory - A subsidiary convent or a large tactical detachment with up to 1,000 Sisters led by a Canoness Preceptor.
Commandery - Normally smaller convents or detachments of militant Sisters with up to 200 Sisters, led by a Canoness Commander.
Mission - The smallest organisation of Sisters, consisting of a few units and can be led by a Canoness or the lesser Palatine.

So, these are detatchments from an Order, and Minor Orders get started when a one of these detachments settles down to guard somewhere.

Huh, may have been slightly ninja'd there.

Your threads are stupid.

Sisters are just fanatical bolter bitches in power armor, created to take advantage of a technicality that the Ecclesiarchy can't have MEN-at-arms.

In general, Space Marines and Sisters of Battle consider themselves equals on the battlefield in the lore at least.

Space Marine biological superiority doesn't really matter too much when a bolter shell explodes inside their chest and takes out both hearts anyway.

Right, unless it only takes one heart out, or just collapses a couple of lungs, or rips off an arm or leg, or shatters your pelvis, or ruptures the bulkhead and shoots you out into space.

Yes, biological adaptations allowing for survival in cases of extreme trauma are totally useless.

 Omegus wrote:
Right, unless it only takes one heart out, or just collapses a couple of lungs, or rips off an arm or leg, or shatters your pelvis, or ruptures the bulkhead and shoots you out into space.

Yes, biological adaptations allowing for survival in cases of extreme trauma are totally useless.

All of those will decimate a Marine's ability to continue fighting all the same, even if they might survive for medivac.

Furthermore, merely losing an arm or having a lung punctured wouldn't stop a Sister of Battle from continuing to fight, because of their insane zeal and ability to defy their own mortal limits. They might die from their wounds after the battle, but they'll still finish the battle, arguably even where a Space Marine would not.

From the Adeptis Sororitas Codex

The greater Order Militant maintain subsidary convents across the Imperium, the largest of which are referred to as Preceptories- a military force that can overcome all but the most terrible foes. This term is also used to describe an organisitional unit of up to one thousand battle sisters

Each order maintains forces of up to 1000 sisters across the breadth of the Imperium, that seems to me to indicate that there alot more than 3000-6000 sisters in each of the major orders.

A force of Battle sisters will be present to guard every shrine and fortress-cathedral in the Imperium

Both of the seem to indicate that there is a large number of sisters. Guarding every shrine in the Imperium is a monumental task.

Each of the orders minoris that have numbers fromm 100 to 1000. As for how many there are the Codex simply says numerous.

Sometimes, there's 1 Sister at a Shrine.

Not every Imperial World has these Shrines.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sometimes, there's 1 Sister at a Shrine.

Not every Imperial World has these Shrines.

I never got that.

Surely 1 sister isn't a strong garrison? I mean, I know they are excellent combatents, but I doubt 1 single sister can turn back anything greater than a particularly large group of cultists. Or are all sisters descended from the Doom Guy?

There's not that many Sisters.

Sometimes, a Shrine is just a hut around a rock that a Saint once kicked out of his path.

 Psienesis wrote:
There's not that many Sisters.

Sometimes, a Shrine is just a hut around a rock that a Saint once kicked out of his path.

Heh. Yeah, that sounds like it only needs 1 sister after all.

 Melissia wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Right, unless it only takes one heart out, or just collapses a couple of lungs, or rips off an arm or leg, or shatters your pelvis, or ruptures the bulkhead and shoots you out into space.

Yes, biological adaptations allowing for survival in cases of extreme trauma are totally useless.

All of those will decimate a Marine's ability to continue fighting all the same, even if they might survive for medivac.

Furthermore, merely losing an arm or having a lung punctured wouldn't stop a Sister of Battle from continuing to fight, because of their insane zeal and ability to defy their own mortal limits. They might die from their wounds after the battle, but they'll still finish the battle, arguably even where a Space Marine would not.

There is a slew of examples of Marines continuing to fight with such injuries while only displaying mild discomfort.

Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans? Actually, never mind, the former sounds way more terrifying.

 Omegus wrote:
Your threads are stupid.

Sisters are just fanatical bolter bitches in power armor, created to take advantage of a technicality that the Ecclesiarchy can't have MEN-at-arms.

So, they just have bolters and power armor? Wouldn't that make them better equipped than the vast majority of humans? Or is it that they're women that you find egregious? They don't have genetic enhancements and one on one a Space marine would -most likely- take a SOB. But it wouldn't be one on one, it'd be two or three on one. Then add in fiery fanaticism on top of that.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never got that.
Surely 1 sister isn't a strong garrison? I mean, I know they are excellent combatents, but I doubt 1 single sister can turn back anything greater than a particularly large group of cultists. Or are all sisters descended from the Doom Guy?

To expand on Mythantor's quote:

"Every concentration of the Adeptus Ministorum's power must be defended, and a force of Battle Sisters will be present to guard every shrine and fortress-cathedral in the Imperium, as well as the priceless sacred relics housed within them. The complement of these garrisons may vary from a few hundred warriors to guard a reliquary-stronghold to a single Battle Sister maintaining a constant vigil over the bones of a fallen saint."

And then, of course, we are also left to wonder what exactly qualifies as a "concentration" of the Ministorum's power.

The first and foremost line of defense for the many shrines and temples throughout the Imperium was always the Preachers and the Frateris Militia zealot rabble - it'd be kinda sad if this aspect was dropped.
But that's what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned the wiggle room for different theories. Personally, I believe a smaller number both better reflects the attrition rate and extreme recruitment requirements (you can make a Space Marine, but you have to look for a Sister), as well as the comparatively minor role they play in GW's fluff. If they'd really be on every single world, not only would this severely diminish the rarity of power armour and boltguns, but it'd also make them the most dangerous force on a whole lot of planets, considering that some Imperial worlds have a defence force that still fights with bows and spears.

Omegus wrote:Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans?

Ah, that explains the disconnect. I believe we were argueing on the basis of the 7 foot tall GW Marines, not the +1 Black Library version.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Your threads are stupid.

Sisters are just fanatical bolter bitches in power armor, created to take advantage of a technicality that the Ecclesiarchy can't have MEN-at-arms.

So, they just have bolters and power armor? Wouldn't that make them better equipped than the vast majority of humans? Or is it that they're women that you find egregious? They don't have genetic enhancements and one on one a Space marine would -most likely- take a SOB. But it wouldn't be one on one, it'd be two or three on one. Then add in fiery fanaticism on top of that.

Considering how much of 40k conflict is resolved in melee, then yes, being a woman is a disadvantage, but that was not my point. They have worse equipment (no black carapace to fully utilize power armor, no exotic archeotech in armory), are actually fewer in number, and on top of their own brand of fiery fanaticism, Space Marines have jacked up adrenals pumping their jacked up bodies full of kill juice.

Considering the Eviscerator is one of the deadliest melee weapons the Imperium fields, I think you're underestimating the prowess of the Sisterhood in close combat.

One doesn't need to "fully" utilise power armour, considering that all the Black Carapace does is foregoing pre-calibration and enhancing the user's ability to interface with "monitoring, medicinal and maintenance units". The Seraphim seem perfectly able to pull off their melee kung-fu moves without direct interface, possibly because the difference between reading a muscle impulse within the muscle, and reading it at the limb, is not actually that massive.
Marine PA provides better strength augmentation, but on the other hand one also shouldn't dismiss the Sisters' much smaller profile - both in terms of evading enemy attacks as well as using the environment to advantage (taking cover, quickly moving through terrain and buildings, etc).

On top of Codex quotes such as the Sisters being "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", there is the Inferno Pistol as one example of archaeotech, not to mention relics such as the Armour of Saint Katherine.

Certainly, one shouldn't dismiss some Marine Chapters' own fanatism, but as far as effects of faith go, the most seems to be the Black Templars being able to emulate the Sisters' resilience against psychic attacks - arguably, though, that still doesn't provide them with Acts of Faith of similar magnitude. The monastic lifestyle and conviction does a lot for their focus, but whether it is the Sisterhood's secret training methods or the fact that the Sisters never actually ever had a normal life and a family, whereas Marines are recruited at age 10-12, in the end there remains a difference between the two armies which neither of them is able to overcome.

Which brings us back to the GW website quote, for it is this difference, these perks unique to both the Marines and the Sisters, which can level the playing field.

@LightKing: you have a thing for "who is the most powerful" threads, don´t you? Things are not that simple. You are bound to get nothing but fanboys yelling that their favorite faction is the best.

Every Codex depicts its faction as totally awesome. Since there are many players who have read the Space Marine Codex (any of them), Space Marine novels and nothing else, the "Space Marines are awesome and the rest suck" belief is common. But if you read the rest of the background, everyone kick ass.

The Sisters have been described as "equal to Space Marines" since the beginning, though I always thought this is sort of an exaggeration. Lynata is better than me providing references and quotes.

- Sisters are significantly weaker and not able to stand the amount of damage a Marine can take. In close combat they are hard to kill but, after some time of hitting each other, they will die against your average Astartes. Unless a miracle happens, of course. If the Sister is armed with a Power Weapon, my money would be on her.
- Sisters are incorruptible, their faith unbreakable. Not a single Sister has fallen to Chaos (well some sources claim that there is one), while half the Space Marines have switched sides. In a dire situation, some marines just stop fighting for the Emperor. Sisters are trustworthy, and Astartes stand somehow besides the Imperium. Some of them (the Wolves or the Dark Angels to begin with) have an agenda of their own and are borderline traitors to the Imperium according to the people that is ruling the Imperium.
- Both have the same training. Same indoctrination, same techniques, same everything. Sisters have been trained since birth. Some Chapters have good, logical, effective training systems (Ultramarines) while other Chapters are not that good at that.
- Sisters have similar, perhaps even better gear. Sure, some powerful, ancient Chapters have extremely rare archeotech, marvels that they don´t understand. Or are able to create powerful weaponary. But the average Chapter does not. And the Sisters have the backing of the Ecclesiarchy, For instance, they bury their kin with the power armour they fought with. And they have archeotech of their own.
- Sisters are highly valuable for lots of powers inside the Imperium. The Adeptus Astra Telepathica, the Arbites, the Inquisition or the Ecclesiarchy use them and share their resources with them. Yet they are far less numerous than Astartes. It is not clear what makes a Sister a Sister, because an important part of them, the Acts of Faith, has an unknown origin, but it seems that it is far more difficult to create a Sister than a Marine. This is telling.

Even more important is the "propaganda" effect concerning the Marines. At the end of the day, a human soldier with the best possible training shooting a melta gun at a Space Marine will blow him in pieces. No matter if he is a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Sister, the Marine does not stand a chance. They are not god-like supersoldiers. They die like everyone else. And if tanks are involved, and the Marines are in the open, it is a massacre.

Some Black Library authors depict a little group of marines killing full armies with their axes, while throwing grenades to tanks as they pass. They also can defeat Hive Fleets, kill Greater Daemons or Avatars, exterminate thousands of chaos space marines or conquer/save entire worlds with populations numbering in the billions. Some people call these books "bolter porn". They are fun to read, in a way. Other writers try to add some realism. No way an army of one thousand (let alone a single squad) can be relevant in a planetary war if they behave like heros and charge the enemy head-on.

I think the tabletop game can serve to draw comparisons. Look at the point costs: Sisters are 12 points, Chaos Space Marines 13 points and Space Marines 14. Genestealers are 14 points too, by the way, yet I know people that believe that Genestealers do not stand a chance against Marines, and are really confused when they play Space Hulk.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Considering the Eviscerator is one of the deadliest melee weapons the Imperium fields, I think you're underestimating the prowess of the Sisterhood in close combat.

They can run wielding a Heavy Bolter. And at least in 5th edition some of them could shoot it with BS 4 while running.

da001 wrote:I think the tabletop game can serve to draw comparisons. Look at the point costs: Sisters are 12 points, Chaos Space Marines 13 points and Space Marines 14. Genestealers are 14 points too, by the way, yet I know people that believe that Genestealers do not stand a chance against Marines, and are really confused when they play Space Hulk.

Indeed - I like to look towards the tabletop game as well, less so due to points but rather the capabilities of weaponry and armour, and the abilities of the various forces. I like the clear-cut ruleset of the tabletop because it is a very rare example of solid numbers, without an author skewing perception towards a specific faction. No, in the tabletop, everyone plays on equal footing ... which is actually a slight disadvantage to the Marines, because their modus operandi is focused on deploying in a manner that does not allow the enemy to have a fair fight. Fortunately it's not too difficult to make up narrative "excuses" for the weird strength/size of the forces on the tabletop, though.

One should never forget that the TT is still an abstraction, of course, but in the end the fluff has been written for it, not the other way around. "The fluff" with its myriad of overlapping, yet contradictory interpretations, is much more abstracted.

Excellent post, btw. Feel exalted.

Oh, and to clarify, when I am supportive of the "they're equals" quote I threw around earlier, I do not mean that they consistently perform identical, but that the Marines have a superior constant performance, whereas the Sisters can use their Faith to temporarily surpass them ... which may end up equalising the final result, so to say. As if the Marines have a line that goes like ------, whereas the Sisters are __/\__.
At least this is what I believe the writer(s) at GW were referring to as well when they came up with that, given that they specifically listed faith as what allows the Sororitas to "catch up" with their Astartes brethren.

 Mythantor wrote:
From the Adeptis Sororitas Codex

The greater Order Militant maintain subsidary convents across the Imperium, the largest of which are referred to as Preceptories- a military force that can overcome all but the most terrible foes. This term is also used to describe an organisitional unit of up to one thousand battle sisters

Each order maintains forces of up to 1000 sisters across the breadth of the Imperium, that seems to me to indicate that there alot more than 3000-6000 sisters in each of the major orders.

Ah, but look at the end of that paragraph:

it is not unknown for a Preceptory to adopt subtle variations of their Order’s livery or traditions.

And then over to the description of Minor Orders:

Although the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, there are numerous other Orders Militant – the Orders Minoris – that have established their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles inspired by one of the Sisterhood’s patron saints.

Looks to me like many of these Preceptories referenced are really Minor Orders, or could become one.

But I will note that feel that the last stated numbers for Major Orders do feel a bit low, considering the vast, vast size of the Imperium. However, those are the numbers that were last given (in the 6E rulebook, I think), and nothing else has been said. The part you pulled out could well be an idication of a retcon, though, but we won't know fro sure until a later publication mentions it outright. So I prefer to play it safe, for the time being, and stick to the last outright statement on the matter.

 da001 wrote:
Since there are many players who have read the Space Marine Codex (any of them), Space Marine novels and nothing else, the "Space Marines are awesome and the rest suck" belief is common.

In relation to this, I think that a problem for the Sisters is that some BL authors/third party contributors depict them as fairly weak, and positive portrayals of them are a little more obscure.

Though, in fairness, every faction probably gets depicted as weak at some point, just depends on who's authoring the book. And, unfortunately, not a whole lot of authors are doing books for the SoB. Though there's certianly some great portrayals to be found too.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Surely 1 sister isn't a strong garrison? I mean, I know they are excellent combatents, but I doubt 1 single sister can turn back anything greater than a particularly large group of cultists. Or are all sisters descended from the Doom Guy?

They're not necessarily alone, though. There could well be armed clergymen and other zealots with them or nearby.

Troike wrote:Looks to me like many of these Preceptories referenced are really Minor Orders, or could become one.

Given the terminology of past publications, I'd subscribe to the same reasoning:

"As numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of thousand warriors to many thousands, the subsidiary convents began to take on an importance all their own. These small scattered bases often proved ideal for reacting to requests for assistance from the Ordo Hereticus, and so over time became independent of the Orders that had founded them, establishing their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles. Though the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris, became especially useful in the frequent purity sweeps and pogroms instituted by the Witch Hunters."
- 3E C:WH, p6 The Rise of the Lesser Orders Militant

And given that the 6E Codex page the quoted segment is from talks about the Orders Militant as a whole, yet does not otherwise mention the Minor Orders, ...

Then again, I am biased towards that argument anyways.

I think the biggest problem of this thread is the confusion between fluff and crunch. Yes, in the game the SoB have bolters and power armor with the same stats as a space marine, but in fluff, their equipment is worlds apart. Power armor refers to a mechanism, not one distinct design. It is, after all, Powered Armor, not some uniformly constructed suit with the name power armor. This is clearly apparent just by looking at the models. Space marine's Power Armor is much much thicker than the armor worn by the sisters of battle. The shoulder pads alone seem twice as thick as the sister's armor, nevermind the probable thickness of the chest piece. Beyond this, fluff states that the difference between astartes quality wargear and human wargear is not merely in quality or age, but in size and force. If i recall, the Deathwatch rulebook states that most of the bolt weapons used by normal humans are simply the best attempts to replicate astartes wargear on a smaller, more manageable scale. Something similar is stated in the Grey Knights omnibus, when one of the marines is said to be firing a storm bolter at a dead sprint when the recoil would shatter a normal man's arm. In that same book, the big finale is actually the only full account of space marines in direct combat with sisters that i know of, and i feel is pretty indicative of the likely results. ~20 grey knights rush an entrenched line of sisters, and begin to utterly destroy them, but taking wounds in the process. The sisters were displayed as skilled, but unable to match the speed, strength, and weaponry of the marines. However, their numbers is where they inflicted wounds, as the grey knights were engaging multiple sisters each, and even then, i don't recall many dying, even though there were wounds like broken arms, stabbings, etc being inflicted.

So are sisters the equals to space marines? Not even close, but will sisters be found in greater numbers than space marines at all but the most dire of battlefields? Probably, and that's what gives them a fighting chance.

I'd like to have some fun asking if this is all that true? Keep in mind that the SM of the Fantasy Flight games might not = fluff just as much as the TT might not fully represent the marine's in their capability. In Deathwatch, a small squad of marines can annihilate millions of foes head on but in the fluff they are built to be a surgical strike force. So I wouldn't be entirely sure of that especially as even Space Marine armour has its high quality and low quality armour.

Also first of all why were the GK even rushing a line of sisters? They aren't corrupted or anything. Also keep in mind that writers tend to be relatively bad at treating SoB and GK are arguably the best SM force above the rest (with only deathwatch and the custodes being comparable)

It's Black Library - I'd be highly surprised if the protagonists did not enjoy a particularly heroic portrayal! Be it that the novel paints them as bigger in size, killing more opponents, or wielding weapons not suitable for anyone but them. That's why, as I mentioned earlier, I prefer the impartial numbers of the tabletop.

Ultimately, however, each of these different and conflicting versions of the fluff is just as valid as the next. This setting does not have a perfectly uniform "canon", so it comes down to just how awesome the individual gamer or reader wants their Space Marines or Sisters to be. This question tends to be influenced by whether you believe that "40k = Space Marines", or that the Marines are just one of many puzzle pieces.

(and FFG's Deathwatch is Movie Marines the RPG - seriously, those guys have squad modes that let them shrug off lascannon wounds with no damage at all )

A daemon corrupted an inquisitor, who fled to this planet and convinced the sisters there and a regiment of guardsmen that he was loyal and the emperor needed their help. The grey knights were sent to hunt down the inquisitor and banish the daemon, but the inquisitor convinced the people of the planet that they were chaos marines, and since grey knights are so secretive, no one recognized their chapter symbol. The grey knights crashed on the planet after their ship was shot down, and to get to where the daemon plan was centered, they had to get through a line of sisters that were between them and the objective, and since the sisters of battle thought they were traitor marines and communication was limited, the sisters opened fire and the grey knights were forced to fight them.

And while the grey knights are presented as the elites of the marines (along with the deathwatch), they are still just marines, and die just as easily as normal marines (beyond hunting daemons).

 Lynata wrote:

Omegus wrote:Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans?

Ah, that explains the disconnect. I believe we were argueing on the basis of the 7 foot tall GW Marines, not the +1 Black Library version.

Yeah yeah, keep living the lie. The distinction is nowhere near as big as you like to pretend, and when it comes to feats, Codex Marines are just as, or more, ridiculous as BL ones. Height is irrelevant, 7 or 8, they are physically far far far far far superior to bolter nuns, they are still snapping normal humans like twigs.

I think the real question is which one doesn't have a bolter gun (don't matter who you are. Have fun when I shove a power sword through your head or meet you to the sweet burst of melta)

 Lynata wrote:
(...)
Oh, and to clarify, when I am supportive of the "they're equals" quote I threw around earlier, I do not mean that they consistently perform identical, but that the Marines have a superior constant performance, whereas the Sisters can use their Faith to temporarily surpass them ... which may end up equalising the final result, so to say. As if the Marines have a line that goes like ------, whereas the Sisters are __/\__.
At least this is what I believe the writer(s) at GW were referring to as well when they came up with that, given that they specifically listed faith as what allows the Sororitas to "catch up" with their Astartes brethren.

That´s my belief too.

Rav1rn wrote:
(...) Something similar is stated in the Grey Knights omnibus, when one of the marines is said to be firing a storm bolter at a dead sprint when the recoil would shatter a normal man's arm. In that same book, the big finale is actually the only full account of space marines in direct combat with sisters that i know of, and i feel is pretty indicative of the likely results. ~20 grey knights rush an entrenched line of sisters, and begin to utterly destroy them, but taking wounds in the process. The sisters were displayed as skilled, but unable to match the speed, strength, and weaponry of the marines. However, their numbers is where they inflicted wounds, as the grey knights were engaging multiple sisters each, and even then, i don't recall many dying, even though there were wounds like broken arms, stabbings, etc being inflicted. (...)

No.

That´s actually one of my all time favorite books. You are misremembering.

Grey Knights crashes a spaceship on the enemy positions. Everything is destroyed.
Page 226 omnibus edition: "(...) the disruption was immense - communications cut, bunkers undermined by the shockwave, eardrums burst, unstable munitions and fuel dumps detonated. Confusion paralysed the defences, and only the most well-equipped and disciplined troops could hope to fight (...). Those troops were the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas".

Visibility is really low, Retributors and two Exorcists tanks are useless. Page 227: "Space Marines had full auto-senses that would give them a crucial advantage here, when the Sisters couldn´t make out targets at long bolter range". It is the worst case scenario for the Sisters: close combat against marines armed with power weapons.

The two forces clash, and we have 3 pages of brutal hand-to-hand fight, from the point of view of Justicar Alaric, the hero. Keep in mind that the GK have power weapons, they cut through Power Armour with ease.

Paragraph 1: Justicar Alaric uses his Nemesis halberd to smash one Sister back and slice off the arm of another. Another knight, Dvorn, swat a Sister backwards with a hammer.
Paragraph 2: Incinerators and flamers everywhere.
Paragraph 3: Brother Clostus and a Sister Superior duel, halberd to power sword. "She sliced down and cut deep into Cloestus´ chest, punching her free hand hard into his face and barging him back into the swirling ash". Both sides having power weapons makes the duels far more interesting. For extra fun, she yells the Catechism of Righteous Loathing while fighting.
Paragraph 4: Brother Lachis is left behind, his leg shattered by bolter fire.
Paragraph 5: squad Santoro reaches the second line, right behind squad Tancred: bolter fire and flamers welcome them.
Paragraph 6: Brother Clostus´ rune is gone, presumed dead.
Paragraph 7: Alaric sees an unidentified member of squad Santoro, "on his knees, his armour pocked and smoking by a dozen bolter rounds". His hand is reduced to "useless bloody rags", though he is still firing his stormbolter.
Paragraph 8: Alaric meets a Sister: "a Sister charged from behind the cover of the razorwire and ducked Alaric´s first blow, grabbing one shoulder pad and smashing him in the face with the butt of the bolter".
Paragraph 9: Alaric, pissed off, kills the Sister in a particularly brutal way.

And so on. Forward to page 230: the GK are still pushing, and the Sister´s first and second lines seem broken. The battle is quite confusing and dirty. Nothing remotely close to the clean Bolter Porn you usually read in the novels. Time for the Seraphims to strike. The Grey Knight advance is halted, and the fight gets bloodier. One of the Seraphim gets in combat with Alaric:
"The Seraphim Superior dived, power-sword first, streaking through the darkness (...) Alaric stumbled and fell onto his back, the thrust of the Seraphim driving him into the mud. He pinned the Sister´s blade under his halberd arm but she got a knee down on his storm bolter hand. Her free hand pistoned up and slammed down an elbow into Alaric´s jaw (...)"... I am not getting a "unable to match the speed, strength, and weaponry of the marines" here at all.

At this point Alaric tries to communicate with the enemy, and eventually they stop killing each other.

Conclusions:
1) Sisters against Grey Knights is a rather brutal battle with no easy victory for anyone.
2) Sisters against Space Marine in 1 to 1 usually ends in an incapacitated Sister, but not always. A Sister can duck the attack of a Space Marine and kill him in close combat, particularly if she wields a power weapon. There are some examples in the fluff of Sisters fighting a Space Marine in a one-to-one duel and winning.
3) Would the GK have been able to go through the Sisters? It is unclear.

Against common Space Marines? The same, probably better. A Sister is the closer you can get to a Space Marine while being still human.

One more thing: the GK acknowledge the danger the Sisters present, not because of the gear or the training, but because their lack of fear. While the guardsmen run, they stand their ground. IF the common soldiers were able to keep the line instead of running, they would have had a chance against the GK. That´s a major constant in many books: the Astartes win battles because they strike fear in the enemy. They are elite troops, specialized in surgical strikes. They cannot attack a tank or a heavily entrenched position and live.

Rav1rn wrote:
Yes, in the game the SoB have bolters and power armor with the same stats as a space marine, but in fluff, their equipment is worlds apart.

Not really, it depends on what fluff you're reading. In the WH codex, for example, it's mentioned that it's as good as a Marine Bolter, IIRC. It is indeed mentioned that it is superior to "nearly all other boltgun-type weapons", according to the Lexicanum (which also cites the WH codex). According to the Lexicanum, the WH codex also seems to say that it provides the same level of protection as Marine Armour, but lacks the strength enhacement enjoyed by the Marines.

Rav1rn wrote:
the Deathwatch rulebook states that most of the bolt weapons used by normal humans are simply the best attempts to replicate astartes wargear on a smaller, more manageable scale. Something similar is stated in the Grey Knights omnibus, when one of the marines is said to be firing a storm bolter at a dead sprint when the recoil would shatter a normal man's arm.

Keep in mind that this is just the version of other contributing authors, studio material may disagree.

Rav1rn wrote:
but will sisters be found in greater numbers than space marines at all but the most dire of battlefields? Probably, and that's what gives them a fighting chance.

Numbers do seem to be a Sororitas advantage over the Marines, at times, given that on the TT Battle Sister squads can include up to 20 members. But no, numbers aren't what give the Sisters their edge. As it stands, there's far more Marines than Sisters. What gives the Sisters their edge in 40K is their sheer faith. We see this with the Acts of Faith, which let them, fight at capabilities far beyond that of an normal human. We also see it with their Shield of Faith, with every Sister getting an invulnerable save, fluffed as them pushing past even the most dire of wounds.

@da001
Oooh, nice. That book actually sounds quite good. Looks like a pretty nice portrayal of the Sisters (its reference to Chaos Sisters aside). I enjoyed the sequel to it, where the GKs fight the Dark Mechanicus, so I may just have to pick that one up, at some point.

@Troike: I really liked it. The author has some bad books, but the way he describes the chaos human followers (the Lost and the Damned) is brilliant. Every single cult he writes about is completely unique, and all of them sounds cool.

In this book, the chaos worshippers are excellent, the Daemons are amazing, the Sisters rocks, and the Guard and the Inquisition are nicely done too. The plot is interesting with people switching sides and a Tzeentch Daemon twisting everything. You don´t know what is going to happen in the next chapter. And the Grey Knights always fight in the direst conditions, yet manage to keep going on, which makes them absolutely heroic. Completely different from the average "marine book". Dark Adeptus is good but not as good, and I have mixed feelings on Hammer of Daemons, the third part of the trilogy.

For another take on Sisters of Battle from the same author, I 100% recommend you the short tale "Daemonblood", starring a Sister and an Ultramarine. It has been published in at least two anthologies: "Dark Imperium" and "Let the Galaxy Burn"

 da001 wrote:
And the Grey Knights always fight in the direst conditions, yet manage to keep going on, which makes them absolutely heroic.

Yeah, this is something that I really liked with his GK vs. Dark Mechanicus book. It wasn't a just roflstomp for the Grey Knights at all, they had some real struggles in their mission and could have been beaten, which made their victory feel all the more hard-earned and meaningful. Ben Counter writes his characters well, from what I've seen.

 da001 wrote:
For another take on Sisters of Battle from the same author, I 100% recommend you the short tale "Daemonblood", starring a Sister and an Ultramarine. It has been published in at least two anthologies: "Dark Imperium" and "Let the Galaxy Burn"

Oh, alrealy read it. Read though 'Let the Galaxy Burn" as a lad. Yeah, he writes them quite well in that too. He also nicely shows the power of their faith in resisting corruption, which is cool to see.

Omegus wrote:Yeah yeah, keep living the lie.

Don't blame me, I'm just sticking to what the writers at the GW core studio have put forth.

Troike wrote:Keep in mind that this is just the version of other contributing authors, studio material may disagree.

It not only may, it does. In GW's Inquisitor game, everyone gets the same bolters.
And why should they be different? The initial charge is only to push the round out of the barrel, anyways - the Wargear Codex specifically points out that bolt weapon projectiles leave the gun "at low velocity" before the rocket motor kicks in and catapults the round to higher speed.
... keep in mind this is before we'd even get to consider the possible existence of recoil compensating technology that already exists in the real world, allowing ordinary humans to fire full-auto weapons of a similar caliber with a single hand. Or the effects of power armour. We're talking about infantry capable of lugging heavy bolters around solo ... and the weight of the gun alone is bound to negate much of the kinetic energy of the discharge.

da001: Thanks for the novel excerpt - so much for the hearsay.
Although the Sisters not having auto-senses is another small deviation from Codex fluff, of course. But such contradictions are to be expected in 40k; what is more remarkable is that this author apparently portrayed them in a more-capable-than-usual-for-BL way, even though they were just sidekicks (from how I understand the plot).

 Lynata wrote:
even though they were just sidekicks (from how I understand the plot).

More or less, though not in a bad way, from what it sounds like. A more flattering way to put it might be secondary characters, or something like that.

From what I've heard, their role in that story involves the somewhat common plot point of the Sisters being used by a corrupt clergyman to further his nefarious agenda. But this is one of the examples where the Sisters find out that they've been tricked, and go after said clergyman.

Sisters of Battle put down the Rainbow Warriors and were said to have done so to other chapters. In saying that it is unknown exactly how these conflicts took place. Did the Sisters outnumber the Astartes with other Imperial Forces backing them up?

Can Sisters stand toe to toe with enemies that Space Marines are called in to face more commonly.. Traitor Marines... Tyranids? Probably not.

In saying that, Space Marines probably aren't suited to the duties that Sisters are called in to fulfil.

 Medium of Death wrote:
In saying that it is unknown exactly how these conflicts took place. Did the Sisters outnumber the Astartes with other Imperial Forces backing them up?

Outnumbering them? Possibly, that depends on both the size of the Order and the Astartes. Honestly, I can't give you an exact answer here, given that the fluff doesn't seem to have ever gone into much detail on the Sisters purging Marine Chapters. We know they've done it, and that its a duty of theirs, but that's about it.

As to whether they had help, it's never been mentioned. I don't think that they would need it, really. The Sisters are plenty well equipped and trained, they can hold their own.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Can Sisters stand toe to toe with enemies that Space Marines are called in to face more commonly.. Traitor Marines... Tyranids? Probably not.

Sure they can. Sisters can deal with regular Marines, so Chaos Marines should be doable as well. And the Sisters are also adept at fighting Chaos, so they've got that in their favour also.

As for Tyranids, why not? A favoured 'Nid tactic is swarms of infantry, which the Sisters are very good at delaing with, what with their adeptness at ranged combat and love of flamers. One piece of fluff in the AS codex, the Martyrdom of Praxedes, talks about Retributors and Exorcists obliterating a first wave of a Tyranid assault. Went the second 'Nid wave breaks through, their leader, Canoness Praxedes, martyrs herself slaying the Hive Tyrant leading the assault, which throws the attakcing 'Nids into confusion and invigorates the Sisters into defeating the rest of the attacking Tyranids, so they can clearly do well agianst 'Nids.

 Medium of Death wrote:
In saying that, Space Marines probably aren't suited to the duties that Sisters are called in to fulfil.

Oh, such as? I'm interested in what you had in mind, there.

Delicate ecclesiarchal matters. Protecting Shrine worlds and such. There's a piece of fluff about a SM Chapter desserting a shrine world due to it's tactical worthlessness.

Perhaps dealing with early daemonic incursions, or large mutant uprisings. Obviously the Grey Knights fight Daemons but they can't be everywhere at once, I think faith would hold an advantage over standard astartes in that regard.

Fleet action has to be considered too, the SM would have the upper hand in orbit imho.

SOB can't go against Tyranids, chaos or anyone else?? Where do people get these ideas. If they can wipe out whole Marine chapters, they can probably fight a chaos warband or three. If called on to go after a corrupt Marine chapter, they're probably going to bring their entire order. Say a major one. So, maybe 3,000 sisters against 1,000 marines. But they'll also bring everyone else they can. Some people think that the strength of an individual warrior is what wins wars. Not at all. Numbers add up. Logistics. Position. Strategy. Tactics, etc. The strength of an individual warrior is only a small and sometimes minor part. If you're imagining a Space marine throwing down against a Sister of battle and Spartan kicking her and then waving a banner in victory, you're doing it wrong. In most battles, 30% casualties is considered atrocious and utterly horrible. There are opening skirmishes to test strength and weakness of the enemy, then the full on assault to break the enemies' nerve and make them scatter and run. If an enemy doesn't do that, then you'll have to fight them to the last man which is time consuming and VERY costly. An example of this would the Spartans at Thermopylae. (Not the movie version, the actual version.) They found a good position and held up. Another example is the First Battle of Bull Run when many confederate units were starting to break and it looked like a Union victory, Jackson held his grown with his Virginians and wouldn't budge. That in itself was remarkable and made the other Confederate unites turn around and go back into the fight to pull out a victory. Okay, there are too many examples, so I'll just say that not running away is in itself a HUGE advantage in combat. (Different from a strategic retreat. Those are good. Just ask the Prussians against Napoleon.)

This sums up the SOB battle doctrine fairly nicely.

So...

Then Black Templars must be really OP?

Superfaith + Superhuman = Super-super-warrior?

Their faith even has an impact gamewise (Crusader & AW special rules- Sisters get SoF and AoF instead of Crusader, perhaps more appropriate for them)

So a BT would easily kick the ass of any other Space Marine because they are Space Marines + the advantages of SoB?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:


On top of Codex quotes such as the Sisters being "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", there is the Inferno Pistol as one example of archaeotech, not to mention relics such as the Armour of Saint Katherine.

Gravguns.

Conversion Beamers.

Centurion Warsuits.

Terminator Armour. (Why the feth doesn't the Sisters have their own mini-Terminators yet? That would be awesome. On the other hand, boobplate-Terminators, which GW inevitably would design them as, would look stupid.)

Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

Troike wrote:Outnumbering them? Possibly, that depends on both the size of the Order and the Astartes. Honestly, I can't give you an exact answer here, given that the fluff doesn't seem to have ever gone into much detail on the Sisters purging Marine Chapters. We know they've done it, and that its a duty of theirs, but that's about it.

Judging from Andy Hoare's strike force article, it seems to be more of a surgical strike rather than a battle of attrition. In fact, the army list accompanying the article did not even allow regular Battle Sisters - Celestians became the only Troop choice, Seraphim the only Fast Attack slot, and the Sisters' modified Deathwind Drop Pods the only Heavy Support!

Now, as you say, this might not apply in all cases and be dependent on the exact circumstances and the forces involved, but in my opinion it's a good indication, especially as standard operating procedure for such missions is for the Sisters to focus their assault on the Chapter's leadership "to disable the entire organisation from the top down".

BrotherHaraldus wrote:So a BT would easily kick the ass of any other Space Marine because they are Space Marines + the advantages of SoB?

They don't have the Sisters Acts of Faith, do they?

Faith and the training to channel it are not an on/off switch or a perk that you either have or you don't. There are countless variations of differing strength. The Black Templars are closer to the Sisters than the average Space Marine (they have a similar resilience to psychic attacks), but that's where it ends.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Gravguns. Conversion Beamers. Centurion Warsuits. Terminator Armour. Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

Technically, you don't know what sort of relics the Ecclesiarchy has buried somewhere. It could be anything. Literally.

 Lynata wrote:
Judging from Andy Hoare's strike force article,

Oooh, was this an article specifically about them purging Marine Chapters? Where did that appear, in a WD? Was there fluff to go with it?

 Lynata wrote:
it seems to be more of a surgical strike rather than a battle of attrition. In fact, the army list accompanying the article did not even allow regular Battle Sisters - Celestians became the only Troop choice, Seraphim the only Fast Attack slot, and the Sisters' modified Deathwind Drop Pods the only Heavy Support!

Now, as you say, this might not apply in all cases and be dependent on the exact circumstances and the forces involved, but in my opinion it's a good indication, especially as standard operating procedure for such missions is for the Sisters to focus their assault on the Chapter's leadership "to disable the entire organisation from the top down".

That sounds about right, actually. Hit them hard where it hurts and then mop up the stragglers. Certainly sounds like a logical way to go about taking down a Marine Chapter, circumstances allowing.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

 Lynata wrote:

Faith and the training to channel it are not an on/off switch or a perk that you either have or you don't. There are countless variations of differing strength. The Black Templars are closer to the Sisters than the average Space Marine (they have a similar resilience to psychic attacks), but that's where it ends.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Their faith even has an impact gamewise (Crusader & AW special rules

They get Crusader instead, which Sisters don't. Their faith is just as potent, just not identical, it seems?

And for wargear, well, you don't know what the Space Marines have in store, either!

Troike wrote:Oooh, was this an article specifically about them purging Marine Chapters? Where did that appear, in a WD? Was there fluff to go with it?

It was in Citadel Journal #49 - I'm surprised you've never seen it, considering I'm sure you'd be super-interested in this:
"The main army list represents the forces the Ministorum can amass to suppress a major rebellion in a populated area or embark upon a massive War of Faith. This variant details a small, highly elite force assembled to neutralise a specific foe identified by the Ordo Hereticus."

The article was not entirely about purging renegade Marine Chapters, but it was the dominant theme throughout a large part of the accompanying fluff:
"Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant. Led by a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus, the force can call upon the aid of the Imperial Navy, from whose troop transports they can deploy using the small numbers of drop pods each of the Orders Militant maintains exclusively for these operations."

Also important for a SoB fluff nut - a small but interesting detail about the inner workings of the Adepta Sororitas:
"On the eve of an assault, the members of the Strike Force receive the blessings of the Inner Circle of the Daughters of the Emperor, a secretive group drawn from the senior members of each Order Militant."

I particularly like the Dominica-pattern Drop Pods ("variants of the Deathwind pods used by the Adeptus Astartes, equipped with the favoured weapons of the Sisters of Battle, including heavy bolters and multi-meltas") as they sound like a nasty surprise to send down with the infantry-carrying pods, acting both as a decoy for any anti-air defences that may be triggered in time, as well as fire support covering the shock troops' arrival. The only bit in the fluff I find "meh" is the hint at the Sisters being dependent on the Navy for airdropping Seraphim.

CJ #49 also has a sort of "beta version" of the Repentia, by the way - back then they were intended as individual add-ons for normal SoB squads, rather than a troop of their own. If you had a unit of SoB caught up in melee, you could have them fall back whilst the Repentia would remain there, continuing to fight the enemy and allowing their Sisters to regroup. If she actually survives, you get +1 Faith Point, and any squad she joins (even non-SoB) instantly becomes Faithful and capable of triggering AoF! That's just badass. I think I actually like this early version more than what we eventually ended up with.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:They get Crusader instead, which Sisters don't. Their faith is just as potent, just not identical, it seems?

Given the game effect of Crusader, I'm not sure I would call it "just as potent" - an extra die for running and a bonus to Sweeping Advances just doesn't sound quite as remarkable as, say, refusing to collapse even though being mortally wounded. Do note that this may not be just a question of conviction (which both BT and SoB have) and training (which is unique to the Sisters), though. The Templars' bodies are already souped up with genetic enhancements and are running on overdrive 24/7, so much so that they need regular drug administration to not suffer system shock - whereas the Sisters are tapping into reserves that the human body normally does not release under ordinary conditions. In other words, I think the Templars already being so close to the top and having their bodies tampered with messes with the "efficiency" of their own zeal. It still works, it's just not as flashy.

In a P&P fan-supplement I'm currently working on, Acts of Faith are actually something that is theoretically available for everyone (depending on their spiritual purity) - but the effects differ heavily, and some AoF will be exclusive to groups which have weaved this into their training program, like the Sisters. If I ever get around to implement BT, they will get their very own AoF, too.

On a sidenote, Sisters can actually get Crusader as part of a "set" together with Fleet and Move Through Cover when they trigger the Endless Crusade AoF.

 Troike wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Judging from Andy Hoare's strike force article,

Oooh, was this an article specifically about them purging Marine Chapters? Where did that appear, in a WD? Was there fluff to go with it?

 Lynata wrote:
it seems to be more of a surgical strike rather than a battle of attrition. In fact, the army list accompanying the article did not even allow regular Battle Sisters - Celestians became the only Troop choice, Seraphim the only Fast Attack slot, and the Sisters' modified Deathwind Drop Pods the only Heavy Support!

Now, as you say, this might not apply in all cases and be dependent on the exact circumstances and the forces involved, but in my opinion it's a good indication, especially as standard operating procedure for such missions is for the Sisters to focus their assault on the Chapter's leadership "to disable the entire organisation from the top down".

That sounds about right, actually. Hit them hard where it hurts and then mop up the stragglers. Certainly sounds like a logical way to go about taking down a Marine Chapter, circumstances allowing.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

No no obviously Sisters don't get access to Artificier Armour. They obviously drop it in a box just like chaos does when they betray the imperium so that the SM can make sure to have almost all the best things Come now brother of chaos! You should know now that SM get to claim all these little bits and goblets even when logically you should have them just as often as them.

Don't marines live 1000s of years with the studs in their foreheads denoting how many hundreds or thousands of years of service they've undergone? Do SoB live that long?

If they're more numerous and more powerful than space marines, why aren't they at the front lines, protecting the imperium?

Would a sister superior be able to go toe to toe with a chaptermaster? If a sister= a marine then a sister superior must be on part with Calgar, right?

The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely. And that's from a chapter that is known for having SM that live longer.

And, frankly, the frontline defense of the Imperium ain't the Space Marines. It's the Guard.

StarTrotter wrote:The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely.

The 6E rulebook puts him at 1.100 years of age, total - it also mentions Space Marines having an average biological lifespan of "two or three times longer than a normal man". (both bits of information found on page 181)

agnosto wrote:Don't marines live 1000s of years with the studs in their foreheads denoting how many hundreds or thousands of years of service they've undergone? Do SoB live that long?

Sisters are not genetically enhanced, but they may gain access to juvenat treatments prolonging their natural lifespan in a similar manner as the "built in" longevity of Astartes. Here is a GW example of a Canoness who has held her position as leader of her Order for nearly a hundred years.

That is, if they survive their combat deployments. The Major Orders supposedly have a rather high attrition rate. The Minor Orders are probably somewhat better off, just because they don't see combat as often - or rather, the combat they do see tends to be against cultists and mutants, whereas the Major Orders go fight xenos, daemons and renegade Marines.

agnosto wrote:If they're more numerous and more powerful than space marines, why aren't they at the front lines, protecting the imperium?

Going by this and this chart, they seem to be much, much less numerous than Marines. Both tables were originally from the Codex Eye of Terror and Codex Armageddon, but they've recently been reprinted in the 6E main rulebook too.

But who says they aren't at the front lines? The six Major Orders are constantly deploying and re-deploying their forces throughout the Imperium in response to a variety of crises. The many Minor Orders tend to be locally limited and less mobile, but generally whenever a convent of the Major Orders "converts" into its own Minor Order, there's a reason the garrison stayed. For example, here is one story about a Minor Order dedicated to fighting corruption and cult activity on a Hive World near the Cadian Gate (you'll note this is the same Minor Order that also shows up as a defensive element on one of the charts linked above).

[edit] But as curran12 correctly pointed out, the front lines of the Imperium are held by the Guard. Both the Space Marines as well as the Sisters of Battle are merely "helping out" in that regard.

agnosto wrote:Would a sister superior be able to go toe to toe with a chaptermaster? If a sister= a marine then a sister superior must be on part with Calgar, right?

Sisters Superior are squad leaders. The equivalent of a Chapter Master would be a Canoness.
As for being able to go toe to toe ... I'd say that depends heavily on the individual, for both the Sister and the Marine. Rank alone does not make them grow physically stronger compared to the rank-and-file of their organisation, but their many years of service will have granted them with valuable experience and skill, and their station may provide them with highly efficient wargear superior to that of their subordinate soldiers. This experience and equipment will differ even between Canoness and Canoness, or Chapter Master and Chapter Master. If someone like Praxedes can bash in a Hive Tyrant's head with her power maul, I'm not sure a Chapter Master would stand a much better chance. In GW's version of 40k, we even had Guardsmen strangling Chaos Marine Lords to death (Straken vs Rathatrax, Codex Planetstrike) - so excuse me if I say that the invulnerability of Space Marines as propagated by some gamers here may seem ... overrated at times.

But if you want to play it out, simulate a duel using the rules from the tabletop and see what happens. I'd say the Chapter Master has a better chance of winning, but coincidence as well as the wargear both characters bring to the fight could have tremendous impact on the fight.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

They did get Artificer armor for the Canoness/Palatine in the WH Codex, but after that it's out. Then again, that does fit the theme of humility and service - no one is raised above the others.

That probably also evens the playing field a bit. Every Sister wears an identical suit of well-crafted Power Armor, the best the Ecclesiarchy can buy (and the Ecclesiarchy is very very rich). SM often outfit their veterans with the oldest armor parts they can find in the armory. If it belonged to a great hero then some of his spirit might guide and protect the new wearer, never mind millenia of material fatigue, battle damage and shoddy repairs with scavenged parts. Any individual marine they encounter can be equipped with anything from a complete MK VII suit through one with a few exchanged parts all the way to a full frankensuit of old parts that may or may not work well together. Every Sister has equipment working at 100% baseline. A marine force might have no man's equipment at the same level of performance.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

They did get Artificer armor for the Canoness/Palatine in the WH Codex, but after that it's out. Then again, that does fit the theme of humility and service - no one is raised above the others.

That probably also evens the playing field a bit. Every Sister wears an identical suit of well-crafted Power Armor, the best the Ecclesiarchy can buy (and the Ecclesiarchy is very very rich). SM often outfit their veterans with the oldest armor parts they can find in the armory. If it belonged to a great hero then some of his spirit might guide and protect the new wearer, never mind millenia of material fatigue, battle damage and shoddy repairs with scavenged parts. Any individual marine they encounter can be equipped with anything from a complete MK VII suit through one with a few exchanged parts all the way to a full frankensuit of old parts that may or may not work well together. Every Sister has equipment working at 100% baseline. A marine force might have no man's equipment at the same level of performance.

That last part: You're implying Marines Armouries have the equivalent of an IG quartermaster maintaining these suits to a "She'll be right" standard. When in reality the Master of the Forge and his Techmarines are Mechanicum trained and experts at their craft. Artificier armour is most definitely not cobbled together from scavenged parts.

As for the main topic at hand: There's pretty much no way Sisters would match Marines 1-1. Faith is a game-mechanic designed to make the faction more flavourful and avoid it becoming "Imperial Faction #23842", in the fluff I don't really see Sisters' faith being that much more potent than Space Marines faith.

And we also know that SM obviously can run in, tank 1000 CSM, kill them all, and have enough time to slaughter 100000 orks whilst bathing in the blood of sisters with just a single marine! Simply put, the fluff is unreliable to say the least. Also, what about Saint Celestine? It seems kinda hard to think she has nothing to do with faith. Like she's a friggin winged reform... and heck, that's just that. The thing with the faith of SoB, is it is established upon the prospect of either magic thinking the emperor is god (and thus, unlike loyalist brothers that are more connected and often regard them as human) can make a gestalt of devotion to do the impossible, oooor you can go for the one that is that faith is magic to the untrained eye. The fluff openly mentions the acts of faith but hint that it is by using the innate potential of humans that we don't use. We don't punch at full force because it would hurt us. But sisters? They go full force due to their willpower of faith. SM are super fueled genetically changed entities that have given up their humanity (bar arguably Salamanders and possible unkown successors). Faith of such sort won't really do anything. Their body is maxed out whilst the human being can rise and fall for a short moment of might. Also, there is nothing more terrifying then that of a furious woman. They have the pain tolerance, they have the fury, and if my mom has anything to go by, they are a better marksman

EDIT: Oh and don't forget the guardsman that have killed marines in single handed combat.

Sisters are designed, and trained, to be a close fire support force. (All the better to burn the witch) The fact that they are on par - roughly - with a Space Marine when it comes to shooting and have none of the advantages of the super human space marine (Increased depth perception, hand eye coordination, faster reaction times, vision and strength - for recoil) means that those girls train very hard.

The fact is that they're both equipped with roughly the same type of bolter and both are roughly equal in shooting ability means that they each have a fair chance of killing each other in a fire fight.

A 95 milimetre automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher will do more damage to a normal human than to an enhanced marine even if their armour is roughly comparable. (Sisters pattern armour lacks many of the upgrades MK. VII Marine armour has, like strength enhancements and the interface for the black carapace, but it does look better, so that's something.)

So, the edge goes to the Marine on that, even if only slightly.

In every other way a Marine is better, tougher, stronger, faster and since they live a gak ton longer (Provided an ork doesn't rip their head off) Marines have a longer time to ply their trade.

Sisters have to focus on shooting since they don't have the ability to spread it out as much as Marines do and killing people from afar is safer, if a little bit less glorious.

Plus Marines can act as a much more independent force, they have their own fleet, most have their own manufactorums to keep them supplied, they have an air force and a semi holy writ saying that no power in the Imperium can mess with them unless they really step out of line.

Sisters have to rely upon the Imperial Navy for transportation and air power, the mechanicum for supplies (Or the Ministorium, depending on if they have the manufacturing power) along with having a much more limited mission statement and general objectives.

Marines, needing to respond to a wider variety of threats have access to a much wider range of weaponry and equipment. Plasma and Grav weaponry, plus bikes, terminator armour, anti-aircraft weaponry, drop pods, scouts, speeders and the like so they have the speed and ability to outmaneuver the Sisters.

As for Acts of Faith, it seems to operate as a low level psychic field similar to an Ork waaaagh charge but on a smaller scale and of different functionality. Marines have the ability to field a fair number of powerful witches, while the Sisters have the innate ability to be more resistant to their wicked ways. Still, chain lightning is chain lightning.

On the whole, Sisters aren't equal to Marines except in devotion to their mission and ability to shoot your entire torso off with a rapidfire RPG.

In a city fight situation I think I'd rather have the Sisters though, they seem to have a knack for close range fire power and an organization designed to have as much flame based weaponry as possible.


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Also, a guardsman could kill a marine in single combat. Just because they're one of the most effective killing machines ever created doesn't mean they're not vulnerable to a lucky hit or a bit of a trip and fall.


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Also, in all conflicts I'd rather have the unstoppable, foe crushing weight of the Imperial guard.

I've always been curious if Salamanders and SoB would get long. Flamers and meltas.... oh the roasting!

Also it's: Lucky hit, trip and fall, experience and whits.

And I'll give you that I'd much rather the crushing might of the IG+IN over some bloody wolves, or marines, or vampires, or sisters (no tthat they aren't cool or anything)

 Lynata wrote:
da001: Thanks for the novel excerpt - so much for the hearsay.
Although the Sisters not having auto-senses is another small deviation from Codex fluff, of course. But such contradictions are to be expected in 40k; what is more remarkable is that this author apparently portrayed them in a more-capable-than-usual-for-BL way, even though they were just sidekicks (from how I understand the plot).

My pleasure.
It is very rare indeed to see the Sisters portrayed in any way.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
So...

Then Black Templars must be really OP?

Superfaith + Superhuman = Super-super-warrior?

Their faith even has an impact gamewise (Crusader & AW special rules- Sisters get SoF and AoF instead of Crusader, perhaps more appropriate for them)

So a BT would easily kick the ass of any other Space Marine because they are Space Marines + the advantages of SoB?

Why so? Templars are 14 points each, just like Ultramarines. The better training of the Ultras compensate any advantages Templars can get.

Also, I don´t get this "super-super-warrior". All factions kick ass. Sisters being 12 points does not mean that Marines Vs Sisters is a one-sided battle.

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 Lynata wrote:

On top of Codex quotes such as the Sisters being "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", there is the Inferno Pistol as one example of archaeotech, not to mention relics such as the Armour of Saint Katherine.

Gravguns.
Conversion Beamers.
Centurion Warsuits.
Terminator Armour. (Why the feth doesn't the Sisters have their own mini-Terminators yet? That would be awesome. On the other hand, boobplate-Terminators, which GW inevitably would design them as, would look stupid.)
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

Inferno pistols, Exorcist Tanks, Penitent Engines, Dominica Drop Pods, Incarcerators... we know the Sisters have access to lots of technology, but their Codex is hilariously small.

It is the same with Chaos Space Marines. They are supposed to have lots of stuff yet this is not there in the Codex. Drop pods to begin with.

For the Space Marines, it is the contrary. Bloodcrusher cavalry with World Eaters (Brazen knights) are awesome? We take them out from chaos and give it to the Space Marines as "Thunderwolf cavalry". Celestine is awesome? We rename her Sanguinor and there we go, a new unit for marines. Grav guns for the Squats are awesome? The Squats are no more... here is a new weapon for marines. Every single toy eventually make it to marines.

 agnosto wrote:
Don't marines live 1000s of years with the studs in their foreheads denoting how many hundreds or thousands of years of service they've undergone? Do SoB live that long?

Space marines do not live that long. Blood Angels (and Dante) are exceptions.

If they're more numerous and more powerful than space marines, why aren't they at the front lines, protecting the imperium?

1) They are less numerous. Depending on the source, it may be a 10:1 ration Marines:Sisters.
2) They are at the front lines, protecting the Imperium, all of them. But the Imperium is big and Sisters are few in numbers.
3) They are not more powerful. They are described as "equal", yet it is hinted that Marines are better. The 12 points vs 14 points thing gives a good idea.

I find it interesting that most these "marines versus x" threads follow a common path:
First step: people post that marines are awesome so they surely will utterly destroy the other faction with no effort whatsoever.
Second step: someone start pointing that the background says otherwise, with all factions being presented as really powerful.
Third step: the same people that claimed that marines were a million times better now says "so X are more powerful than marines!!!". When did anybody say that Sisters were better than Marines?

Would a sister superior be able to go toe to toe with a chaptermaster? If a sister= a marine then a sister superior must be on part with Calgar, right?

A Sister Superior is the equivalent to a Sargeant.

A better comparison would be between Praxedes or Prioress Helena and Calgar.
Stats:
Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.
Helena: 5 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 160 points.
Calgar: 6 5 4 4 4 5 4 10 more than 100 points over Helena. I think there is a rule here about giving points for units currently in game.

Given that most their power comes from Special Rules and Gear, I think the points will give you who is the most powerful character.
More characters:
Vulcan He´Stan: about 50 points more than Helena.
Tigurius: near Helena.
Cassius: between Helena and Praxedes.
Kor´Sharro Khan: near Praxedes.

See? It is easy to draw comparisons. We are provided a specific tool for that.

 curran12 wrote:
And, frankly, the frontline defense of the Imperium ain't the Space Marines. It's the Guard.

A million times this.

From any possible point of view, Imperial Guard >>>>>>>>>>> anyone else regarding "defending the Imperium as a frontline defense".

 Celtic Strike wrote:
(..) (stuff I agree with)
Also, a guardsman could kill a marine in single combat. Just because they're one of the most effective killing machines ever created doesn't mean they're not vulnerable to a lucky hit or a bit of a trip and fall.

Also, in all conflicts I'd rather have the unstoppable, foe crushing weight of the Imperial guard.

Exactly.
Sisters and Marines are elite troops. At the end the guard keep the Imperium going on.

MarsNZ wrote:

As for the main topic at hand: There's pretty much no way Sisters would match Marines 1-1. Faith is a game-mechanic designed to make the faction more flavourful and avoid it becoming "Imperial Faction #23842", in the fluff I don't really see Sisters' faith being that much more potent than Space Marines faith.

Which fluff are you referring to?

It is not videogames: Dawn of War depicts Sisters as roughly equal to Marines.
It is not books. Black Library books depicts Sisters as roughly equal to Marines.
It is not the Codex: the Codex says "equal to Marines".

So what is this "fluff" you talk about? I heard of a RPG system that openly stated that Sisters were inferior. But could you provide some additional information?

 StarTrotter wrote:
I've always been curious if Salamanders and SoB would get long. Flamers and meltas.... oh the roasting!

Yes they do!
During the Third War for Armaggedon, Sisters and Salamanders helped each other, something odd for Space Marines (who have a think for fighting their own way), and both factions gained each other´s respect.

Well Salamanders are a bit of an oddity in terms of mannerisms.... What's that? Blood Angels want to go vanquishing the hordes? Ultramarines went to defend the hive cities? What do the Salamanders do? They do the essential but neglected job of protecting supply convoys, fighting rearguard actions and escorting refugees.

But huzzah!

EDIT: How could I! I forgot all about the Promethean War where Celestine popped up to save the order of the ebon chalice and Salamanders that fought back and back derp

BrianDavion wrote:


or feesable not kill the other as boltguns aren't nesscarily the ideal "power armor popper"

Real Sisters don't use Bolters

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

BS7? T5? I6?

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.


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Besides, if faith-training was so effective so it was able to compensate for extremely expensive surgery, 'conventional' training, and equipment, wouldn't some of the smarter Marine chapters realise that 'Hey, maybe we should do that too?'

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

Yes, in 2nd edition. Comparing 2nd edition characters to 6th edition characters is a bit flawed.

 StarTrotter wrote:
The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely. And that's from a chapter that is known for having SM that live longer.

You're right. I can't seem to lock down a number but the studs in their skulls seem to denote anywhere from 50-100 years of service. Odd. I read a couple of the Horus Heresy books and the first one talked about how marines could technically live until killed. I've been playing the game for 20+ years and the fluff changes so much and contradicts itself depending upon who writes it....

I guess I still don't get it. I play Tau and I know when you read the fluff for any faction they look like they could take on the entire 40k universe and win; that's why people collect the armies to begin with. If the fluff said, "No SoB would ever be able to beat a space marine, ever." Who'd want to play them? Fluff stories aside though, think about it. You've got power armor which just enhances the natural strength and endurance of the wearer. You could put PA on a really strong, athletic 6' tall unenhanced amazon and she'd still be much weaker than an 8-foot tall superhuman who was created by the gawd-emprah of mankind to be a perfect soldier. A giant in power armor who was designed to go beyond the realm of human physical possibility; the same power armor that increases the unenhanced super-athletic amazon's strength makes this monster into a comparative incredible hulk. That's just in the strength department, the emperor didn't stop there when he was designing his children.

Like I said, I play Tau; I'd love for the super-awesome nuns and the super-awesome marines to wipe each other out.

 agnosto wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely. And that's from a chapter that is known for having SM that live longer.

You're right. I can't seem to lock down a number but the studs in their skulls seem to denote anywhere from 50-100 years of service. Odd. I read a couple of the Horus Heresy books and the first one talked about how marines could technically live until killed. I've been playing the game for 20+ years and the fluff changes so much and contradicts itself depending upon who writes it....

I guess I still don't get it. I play Tau and I know when you read the fluff for any faction they look like they could take on the entire 40k universe and win; that's why people collect the armies to begin with. If the fluff said, "No SoB would ever be able to beat a space marine, ever." Who'd want to play them? Fluff stories aside though, think about it. You've got power armor which just enhances the natural strength and endurance of the wearer. You could put PA on a really strong, athletic 6' tall unenhanced amazon and she'd still be much weaker than an 8-foot tall superhuman who was created by the gawd-emprah of mankind to be a perfect soldier. A giant in power armor who was designed to go beyond the realm of human physical possibility; the same power armor that increases the unenhanced super-athletic amazon's strength makes this monster into a comparative incredible hulk. That's just in the strength department, the emperor didn't stop there when he was designing his children.

Like I said, I play Tau; I'd love for the super-awesome nuns and the super-awesome marines to wipe each other out.

Well that is until they deal with the mighty orks, mad genestealers, hulking beasts, and the daemonic incursions.... or two .

Well why would you play Tau? Technically, you are the weakest army of the ones that got represented. If the Imperium, if Chaos, if Necrons, if pretty much any faction even looked at you funny, you would be swept away. But they can't put that effort in... in part because their arrogance blinds them... and in part because they simply cannot afford to bring enough resources to counter them. The Imperium could certainly crush them..... but if they did, that would mean that Chaos and every xenos faction would rip them apart. So they ignore the growing might of the Tau as they grow more and more of a threat each passing year, decade, millenia. And why what do sisters have? They are nuns that love to wield flamers, ignore the magic of psykers because they simply will it, and they are the peak of being human without going through extensive genetic modifications. They are faitfhul, loyal, and dedicated. They have the baroque, cathedral theming written all over them. The torches, the churches... In reality, Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are a part of a system. In the end, Imperial Guardsman are the unsung heroes that fight onwards despite all odds, sacficing thousands, millions, billions of lives even to make the line push the enemy forces even an inch back. Yet the marines and sisters inspire them. When the guard are fighting orks, there is claim that many a regiment and pdf force fight onwards because any moment the raven guard might come to help them fight back the hordes of xenos. SM and SoB bring in a quick, independent, mobile, tactically flexible group of elite units that are best capable of assassination of high ranking targets and quick guard forces capable of being immediate responders to the enemy yet neither faction would be able to wage a crusade on their own unlike the guardsman that could very easily do such a thing.

And yes, you don't know how much I am hoping that the Sisterhood will finally get plastic and not cost almost 75 or so dollars for only 10 troops. As soon as it drops, I think I'm going to make myself a little Sisters of Battle minor. probably place it close to the boundaries of the tau empire. Obviously those poor individuals need some... inspiration *slowly slides finger along a flamer* And I must admit.... I haven't had fish sticks in a looong time.... *licks lips*

Yeah. There are countless, "Here is how the IoM would destroy the Tau in a heartbeat" threads. All true if each faction didn't have its own plot armor.

So, in that long narrative about the destruction of the Tau, did I miss the part where you address how a sister is on part with a marine? I get it from a fluff standpoint but the logic escapes me. If tech and armaments are the same then it just boils down to physical fortitude and strength and I think the Marines have a decided edge there.

 agnosto wrote:
Yeah. There are countless, "Here is how the IoM would destroy the Tau in a heartbeat" threads. All true if each faction didn't have its own plot armor.

So, in that long narrative about the destruction of the Tau, did I miss the part where you address how a sister is on part with a marine? I get it from a fluff standpoint but the logic escapes me. If tech and armaments are the same then it just boils down to physical fortitude and strength and I think the Marines have a decided edge there.

Hey! But I also mentioned they are the underdog that each day grow stonger I like them for that. In a grimdark world where almost no progress is made they continue to churn onwards. That was more to your question of why people would want to play SoB. Oh you meant that the fluff might conflate them to be equal to a marine when they really aren't? If so, my apologies I mistook your statement.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Sisters have to rely upon the Imperial Navy for transportation and air power

Not necessarily, their 2E codex mentions that Major Orders have their own corvettes to help them get around.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Marines, needing to respond to a wider variety of threats

Sisters would need to respond to a wide variety of threats too. Remember, one of their main jobs is to defend Ecclesiarchy territory and to beat up anybody who might be inconviniencing the Ecclesiarchy, and that could involve fighting basically anything. Tyranids attacking a shrine world? The Sisters get sent in. Orks? Chaos Marines? Eldar? Lost and Damned? Sisters could go up against it all. Really, anything the Marines face can also be faced by the Sisters, and there's plenty of codex stories of Sisters fighting a wide range of foes.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
As for Acts of Faith, it seems to operate as a low level psychic field similar to an Ork waaaagh charge

Nope, nothing psychic about it, according to these codex quotes:

"The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers."

- 6E AS codex

"The Sisters of Battle can draw upon the wellspring of their faith to guide their actions. Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible."

- 5E WD codex

For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled

- 3E WH codex

So, they've been consistently heavily implying that it's just their belief that drives them on, not psychic power.

 Lynata wrote:
II'm surprised you've never seen it, considering I'm sure you'd be super-interested in this:

I never really got deep into the fluff until I came here, bud, so I don't really known the older, more obscure stuff. Before I only had the basic understanding of it all, along with some BL books and DoW games.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I've always been curious if Salamanders and SoB would get long. Flamers and meltas.... oh the roasting!

They sure do! Apart form the thing that da001 mentioned, the AS codex also has a story where the Salamanders and SoB team up. It has them merrily spamming flame weapons everywhere and fighting back to back against a horde of possessed Chaos Marines.

Yeah! It is the Promethean war. Salamanders fighting CSM and daemons (and probably cultists versus guardsman in the surroundings). The ebon chalice comes in and they join up immolators and redemption land raiders blazing trails, flamers and melts charring the very air. Then the leading daemon prince rises up and hammers in. Hope seems lost as Sister and Brother stand back and back before saint celestine appears and personally slays/banishes him back to the warp. With that, they redouble their efforts and end victorious. Speaking of which, that fluff is a good example. The Adeptus sororitas came in and supported the SM to fight a daemon prince and his warband of chaos. They fought back and back in a way no normal human could. The sisters, overall, might not be just as tough, nor as physically strong. They might not be genetically modified mutant... but they don't have to be that to make a difference. They have been trained since youth, have become the pinnacle of human without genetic modification. Most importantly, for a short moment, through sheer force of faith and willpower, they can unlock the hidden potential of the human body and for that short moment surpass even a Space Marine. Of course, that is my interpretation. It is kind of funny. When I didn't care about SoB, I just said psykers and the warp but as I grew to like them more and more I ended up liking them just unleashing the willpower of humanity.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

BS7? T5? I6?

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.

Praxedes killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat without any help and broke a massive tyranid attack, "buying the thousands of refugees fleeing from the conflict the time needed to evacuate the planet". Among other things. In a time when Ulrick gained the admiration of both the Wolves and the World Eaters by killing three (3) khorne berserkers.

What did you expect? She is the Marneus Calgar of the Sisters.

If see had made it into 6th, she would have killed one or two Avatars or Bloodthirsters. All factions are described like that. I always fail to get the "Sisters are similar in the game but inferior because of the fluff": the fluff for the Sisters is completely over the top.

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Besides, if faith-training was so effective so it was able to compensate for extremely expensive surgery, 'conventional' training, and equipment, wouldn't some of the smarter Marine chapters realise that 'Hey, maybe we should do that too?'

Easy.
1) Keep in mind that they are still BELOW Marines skill. What would be the point?
2) Training is the same. Perhaps better for the Sisters, since they have been trained since birth. Novices are 12 years old, a full Battle Sister 18. What is this "conventional training" you mentioned?
3) Equipment is (arguably) better. It is the same gear, but with far more money. Sisters are buried in their power armour. Sure, some Chapters have excellent technology, but most of them are highly independent from the Imperium. They keep recycling and patching everything.
4) Some chapters "do that": have faith in the Emperor to the point that it significantly improves their battle prowess. Templars, to say but one. As a result, a Templar (14 points) is as good as an Ultramarine (14 points), in spite of the far superior training the Ultramarines have.

 Weltenwolf wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

Yes, in 2nd edition. Comparing 2nd edition characters to 6th edition characters is a bit flawed.

True.

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.
Helena: 5 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 160 points.

Calgar 2nd edition: 8 8 5 5 4 8 4 10 116 points + 18 points gear (gauntlets): 134 points.
Cassius 2nd edition: 6 6 5 5 2 6 2 9 75 points.
Tigurius 2nd edition: 7 7 5 5 4 7 3 9 199 points + 65 points gear (psy-weapon and hood). 264 points.

Keep in mind that heros can take two extra wargear cards.
Calgar: went from "between Praxedes and Helena" to "over 100 points over Helena". He is far more expensive now.
Cassius: went from "far, far cheaper than Praxedes" to "between Praxedes and Helena". He is far more expensive now.
Tigurius: went for "over 100 points over Helena" to "near Helena". He is far cheaper now. I am assuming this is because the "psyker" rule.

Following this, I think Praxedes and Helena in 5th edition would be similarly costed than Space Marines heros.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.
'

Why?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.
'

Why?

Because he has a bionic arm that makes him as strong as a Dreadknight?

Uh, S6, 8 on the charge, its basically a powerfist.

I think he is more a machine that a man. Lots of bionics, not only the arm.

And he is Catachan, perhaps the most over the top fluff ever written: they get a 5+ save from a T-shirt and kill orks in close combat.

da001 wrote:I heard of a RPG system that openly stated that Sisters were inferior. But could you provide some additional information?

Prolly FFG's line of RPG systems. It deviates from GW's fluff on a number of details, such as the Deathwatch not being a part of the Inquisition, or the Vostroyan Firstborn not only including sons but also daughters, or individual Storm Troopers joining grunt squads, or Assassinorum Operatives permanently attached to Inquisitors, or Space Marines getting equipment that is +20% better than anyone elses (including the Inquisition).

It is perhaps noteworthy that this development only started after FFG took over from the now-defunct Black Industries studio, for the first Dark Heresy books published by BI still gave Marines equal gear and had Sisters be a rare force with ambiguous AoF. Then FFG gained the license, Marines got bumped up in power, and the amount of Sisters in the game's fluff centuplicated whilst simultaneously describing them as less awesome (they can fight "even" renegade Guard and Orks) and giving them clear space magic such as shooting beams of light out of their friggin' eyes.

Yeah.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Besides, if faith-training was so effective so it was able to compensate for extremely expensive surgery, 'conventional' training, and equipment, wouldn't some of the smarter Marine chapters realise that 'Hey, maybe we should do that too?'

The thing is that Battle Sisters are indoctrinated from birth; they never had a normal life or a family aside from their Order, they literally are "blank slates" filled with propaganda and a grueling training regime. Space Marines, on the other hand, recruit new members at the age of 10-12, up to which point they will have led a normal life that they remember.

In theory, the Space Marines could perhaps start taking in recruits the moment they are born as well, but unlike the Adepta Sororitas, who is capable of drawing on the galaxy-wide network of Ecclesiarchal Schola Progenium facilities, the Astartes Chapters are limited to the one world (or small number of worlds, in case of some orgs like the Ultras) they have been granted as a fief, and it is difficult enough to find someone compatible to their geneseed even before applying any of the specific Chapter's additional requirements. So, they'd either have to recruit any newborn whose genetic makeup is compatible with the Chapter's geneseed and let them live and train in gigantic academy compounds similar to the Schola for about a decade until they can become Neophytes (which sounds like a hilariously complex and resource-intensive undertaking) or they'd have to take a number of newborns equal to what they think their Chapter will need in 10 year's time into their Chapter Fortress and just hope that these recruits won't suck later on, given that they cannot afford to have them fail any additional tests - like the Sisters can when the Schola simply assigns a child to another Imperial Adeptus when the girl doesn't fulfill the Sisterhood's extreme requirements.

And then there is this paradox:
- The smarter Space Marine Chapters do not believe in the Emperor being a god, because they are too smart to fall for this superstitious nonsense (aside from the Machine Spirit crap the AdMech seems to have successfully sold everyone on)
- Yet belief in the Emperor being a god, and thus being able to grant His servants supernatural protection from evil and harm, is a requirement to "unlock" the believer's potential

... and that's aside from my earlier theory of the Space Marines already running so close to what the human body is capable of that they just cannot boost it even further.

Troike wrote:Not necessarily, their 2E codex mentions that Major Orders have their own corvettes to help them get around.

That was the Codex Imperialis, actually!

The 2E SoB Codex doesn't mention anything about how they get around, sadly. In fact, none of the Codices does. It's one of the "big unknowns" that is rarely even hinted at, allowing for so much interpretation.
It should be kept in mind that a whole lot of other Imperial institutions have their own ships, too. Due to the Guard's fluff, a lot of people tend to believe that only the Navy and the Marines have starships, yet the AdMech, the Inquisition, even the Adeptus Arbites has its own fleets. The Ecclesiarchy used to, as well, until the Age of Apostasy and the Decree Passive. It's worth pointing out that the Adepta Sororitas were granted exemption from said Decree, so any starship ban would not apply to them. Their very purpose is to grant the Ministorum a degree of independence from other Imperial organisations - and personally I'd assume this includes the Navy. Their role as internal police and purity enforcement would also suffer from having to ask for passage all the time when individual Navy officers are much more likely to be loyal to some (potentially rogue) Cardinal rather than the AS.

Troike wrote:Nope, nothing psychic about it, according to these codex quotes: [...]

Or even more obvious, the rules for GW's Inquisitor game:

"No Adepta Sororitas character will ever have psychic powers of any sort."

That being said, personally I believe Celestine to be a notable exception - in that she is actually a benign Warp entity conjured by the intense faith/emotions of crusading Sisters and zealous Frateris Militia during a time of crisis.
Other possible explanations I've heard over the years are mass-hallucination, propaganda, or archaeotech disguised as the Emperor's doing for the purpose of morale. There's a lot of room for interpretation concerning this character.

Troike wrote:I never really got deep into the fluff until I came here, bud, so I don't really known the older, more obscure stuff. Before I only had the basic understanding of it all, along with some BL books and DoW games.

Sure, sure. I just thought you had caught on in the meantime. You seem to have soaked up a whole lot of information since you came here, and I had mentioned the Strike Force article a number of times. Guess we just missed each other on those occasions, then!

Space Marines remember little to nothing of their previous lives, although it seems to vary by Chapter.

Omegus wrote:Space Marines remember little to nothing of their previous lives, although it seems to vary by Chapter.

Probably also depending on who writes a source. By now I've seen several interpretations of what hypno-indoctrination means, for example, from simple Clone Trooper-like "flash training" all the way to full scale brainwashing. Personally, I'd much rather subscribe to the latter as well, if only because indoctrination removes Sisters and Marines further from the ordinary soldiers like the men and women of the Imperial Guard. Call it a sense of "narrative balance", if you will: the more powerful you are, the more of your humanity you have to sacrifice. It's what makes me appreciate the Guard as an army more, in spite of, or perhaps because of their underdog role.

And that's to say nothing of the Salamanders, who are regular parts of the towns and societies that they came from even after they are made into Marines. It would seem that the indoctrination is not as evenly applied with Marines as with Sorotias.

I would imagine even with minimal indoctrination, a decade or so as a mortal child should be a relatively faint memory after a century (or several) of fighting space monsters.

Even that captain of the 4th whose name escapes me, despite having clear memories of his novitiate years, struggles to interact with normal humans.

Contrast Grey Knights, who hold no ties to their past whatsoever. Not even their names.

Omegus, you are thinking of Uriel Ventris.

MarsNZ wrote:
That last part: You're implying Marines Armouries have the equivalent of an IG quartermaster maintaining these suits to a "She'll be right" standard. When in reality the Master of the Forge and his Techmarines are Mechanicum trained and experts at their craft. Artificier armour is most definitely not cobbled together from scavenged parts.

I was talking about the "normal" power armors. There's many marks of armor in 1000+ suits to keep working and there's only so many Techmarines. Some parts are very old and some have design flaws (like the exposed power cables on some chestpieces). You can repair battle damage but not always perfectly, and for older pieces spare parts can be in short supply. Sometimes everything works together flawlessly and sometimes less so. And yet it is a great honor to wear the chestpiece of the late Sergeant Humanshield who saved the Captain. You can barely see where that lascannon shot went in and out, honest.

Where every SoB starts at 100% equipment efficiency a marine squad might have members both above and below that number. They're still marines ofc, but some might have to hold back while others drag the rest down.

I was talking about my interpretation of Sisters shield of Faith. GW seems to function on the 'clap your hands if you believe' mentality. Citizens of Ultramar live a happy life and believe in happy things, so their warp essence is happy.

Orks believe things will work so they do. They generate low level warp fields that get stronger the more orks are around and the more they believe in something.

I see no reason why the AOF wouldn't work the same way. Strong faith and belief interacts with the warp and manifests as their shield. Which works (sometimes) simply because the believe it will.

That kind of stuff happens a lot in the 40K world.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
I was talking about my interpretation of Sisters shield of Faith. GW seems to function on the 'clap your hands if you believe' mentality. Citizens of Ultramar live a happy life and believe in happy things, so their warp essence is happy.

Orks believe things will work so they do. They generate low level warp fields that get stronger the more orks are around and the more they believe in something.

I see no reason why the AOF wouldn't work the same way. Strong faith and belief interacts with the warp and manifests as their shield. Which works (sometimes) simply because the believe it will.

That kind of stuff happens a lot in the 40K world.

I'm also of the opinion that AOF are a form of psychic power and living saints are in effect, demon princes of the Emperor. But that's just me. There's a lot of room for interpretation.

 Melissia wrote:
In general, Space Marines and Sisters of Battle consider themselves equals on the battlefield in the lore at least.

Space Marine biological superiority doesn't really matter too much when a bolter shell explodes inside their chest and takes out both hearts anyway.

Physical superiority matters a lot when the superhuman is actually able to dodge the bolter shell after it was fired.

And that is assuming that the bolt shell will kill or even incapacitate the Marine. Marines are substantially more durable than humans, including the Sisters.

One on one, the Marine will most likely overpower and outskill the Sister in melee, he has the reaction-time to shoot her with his bolter before she shoots him, and he has the swiftness of foot and agility to better avoid being hit. His armour also has superior strength-enhancing qualities, so a guy already stronger than the armoured Sister has another amplifying factor on top of that.

Some Sisters are better than most Marines. Praxedes for example.

But on average?

Get real.

I am not sure Marines are able to dodge bolter shells after they are fired...

Matrix marines? That's a first for me. But one on one an average Marine would beat an average sister 9 times out of 10. I'm not comparing one on one though, I'm comparing armies in cases that they would actually fight. If a chapter is getting purged, the Sisters would roll deep and bring many more sisters and IG. The most a heretic chapter could muster is their 1,000 marines, armor and a few ships. The other case I'd see them fighting is if an AS group is in the way of something some Marines want badly enough to kill for. Blood Ravens, Dark Angels are good candidates for this. In that case, the Marines wouldn't attack unless they thought they could win.

So, what I'm getting at is that Marines vs Sisters is kind of a pointless debate because it depends on so many variables that unless you establish a scenario there's no telling who could do what.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Matrix marines?

Probably from the same publication where Terminators do backflips.

Your assessment is spot on, IMO. SoB and Marines are both among the best equipped and trained forces in the IoM. Neither is going to underestimate the other and bring less than needed if a fight is inevitable. The marines have an undisputed edge in close combat and they might have Land Raiders, Sisters are known for murderous close-range firepower, Exorcist tanks and enough meltaguns to take down anything they can drive up to. No matter who comes out victorious the battle is sure to be a slaughter of epic proportions with the victor only marginally better off than the loser.

What books like to call someone dodging a bullet is actually someone aiming poorly.

It happens all the time in the books, even the more serious ones, much like it does in most action movies where the protagonist's skill/intuition lets him avoid gunshots in close proximities. Think Jason Bourne, except a Marine would be capable of that and then some.

Except no, they wouldn't. If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

Or in your chest. In general taking cover seems to be the best way of "dodging" bullets.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except no, they wouldn't. If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

Not in the 40K universe. Eldar dodge bullets all the time, too.

Eldar also do not perceive time in quite the same way as humans do. That tends to give them an advantage.

A human inquisitor can deflect gunfire with their power swords in GW's own Inquisitor game. Just to shut down arguments of "lolBL".

There. I have proved you all wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
What books like to call someone dodging a bullet is actually someone aiming poorly.

It doesn't matter how poor the aim is, when you swat bullets out of the air with your sword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Except no, they wouldn't. If you hear the bang, the bullet is already past you.

Marines don't need to hear the bang.

They can see the bullet.

Enhanced reaction-time and perceptions are a boon.

If a powersword can harmlessly deflect bullets, then we can put aside the "omg! BolterZ assplode and a lightsabur cant stop the splosions!" in the SW vs 40K arguments? It either works or it doesn't.

Also, successfully parrying a bullet with a sword is more like getting very lucky with a small amount of cover than it is getting your body out of the way of the bullet's path.

Nothing in the SM range of biometric enhancements or power-armor capabilities indicates that they can detect a supersonic item at slower-than-supersonic speeds and react to it.

 Psienesis wrote:
If a powersword can harmlessly deflect bullets, then we can put aside the "omg! BolterZ assplode and a lightsabur cant stop the splosions!" in the SW vs 40K arguments? It either works or it doesn't.

A. I don't care about the Star Wars debates.

B. This occurs in The First Heretic. Argel Tal blocks three bolt rounds successfully with a power sword, but their detonation knock him off his feet.

Also, successfully parrying a bullet with a sword is more like getting very lucky with a small amount of cover than it is getting your body out of the way of the bullet's path.

Hm.

"DEFLECT SHOT
The character uses his extremely fast reflexes to deflect incoming
fire with a parry from his weapon. A character can only use
deflect shot
when armed with a power weapon or force weapon.
If the character is hit by enemy shooting, he can try to deflect it.
If he can roll under the enemyís To Hit roll on a D100, the shot is
deflected and has no effect. For example, if the opposing player
rolls 56 to hit, a roll of 55 or less will deflect the shot. If the
deflecting character can roll 1/10th or less of the enemyís To Hit
roll, the shot is rebounded straight back at the firer who is hit
instead! To follow the previous example, any Deflect roll of 6 or
less will rebound the shot. A character can attempt to deflect a
number of shooting hits per turn equal to his Speed. A character
cannot deflect a deflected shot!"

Games Workshop agrees.

Nothing in the SM range of biometric enhancements or power-armor capabilities indicates that they can detect a supersonic item at slower-than-supersonic speeds and react to it.

Other than the enhanced perceptions and reflexes.

Enhanced reflexes do not permit a SM to move faster than the speed of sound, sorry.

If dodging bullets is where we draw the realism line, 40K is in trouble.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A human inquisitor can deflect gunfire with their power swords in GW's own Inquisitor game. Just to shut down arguments of "lolBL".

If a human can do that, then a human belonging to the best trained human military force in the Imperium sure would be able to do too. And that´s the Sisters.

Anyway, that´s a bit too much for me.

 Omegus wrote:
Are you really trying to argue that a bunch of nuns on their periods are equal combatants to genetically molded 8+ foot tall superhumans?

Yes. And so does Games Workshop itself.

 Psienesis wrote:
Enhanced reflexes do not permit a SM to move faster than the speed of sound, sorry.

I accept your concession, to be perfectly blunt. You have providing nothing in the way of tangible evidence (Whereas I proved that in GW's own material, much less other works, it is entirely possible), give me a reason for why I am wrong besides "No you're wrong".

It is frankly fething astounding that people can look at ten meter tall flaming Daemons who can permanently corrupt the fabric of reality over an entire planet by existing and are strong enough to rip through tanks like cheese and say "That seems fine" but a superhuman Space Marine having supersonic speeds? "No that's dumb".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 da001 wrote:

If a human can do that, then a human belonging to the best trained human military force in the Imperium sure would be able to do too. And that´s the Sisters.

Anyway, that´s a bit too much for me.

To be blunt, I'd stake money on Inquisitors being better than the average Sister in combat.

Void, Space Marines are not capable of moving past the speed of sound. That's not a "concession" to state that.

 Melissia wrote:
Void, Space Marines are not capable of moving past the speed of sound.

Can they run faster than it?

I don't know.

Can they react at speeds beyond it?

Yes, I've proven that already with GW's own material, because certain members are so obstinate that anything else doesn't count. I could easily use other works to prove it even further, but I frankly don't need to.

Seriously, what do you base your view on?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

If a human can do that, then a human belonging to the best trained human military force in the Imperium sure would be able to do too. And that´s the Sisters.

Anyway, that´s a bit too much for me.

To be blunt, I'd stake money on Inquisitors being better than the average Sister in combat.

I think the average inquisitor is far worse of a warrior than the average, say, Sister Superior.

Not all Inquisitors are fighters. And they don´t train nearly as much time. A Sister or an Astartes are always training or fighting. Inquisitors have lots of different tasks to do. I can think of some examples in the fluff: Inquisitor Eisenhorn is amazed at the combat skill of kasrkins, and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Anything you say about Inquisitors regarding martial skill can instantly be applied to Sisters, Comissars, Veterans and Stormtroopers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yet, Eisenhorn killed a Space Marine in close combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
To be blunt, I'd stake money on Inquisitors being better than the average Sister in combat.

I disagree. All Sisters are trained in combat from early childhood, and continue this regime on a daily basis, only stopping when they're out fighting a war. Meanwhile, some Inquisitors are more inclined to rely on technology or their wits to succeed rather than actual combat ability. One-on-one, some Inquisitors would probably lose to the average Sister, assuming that the Inquisitor wasn't tippinng things in their favour with superior tech/equipment.

TL;DR, all Sisters are trained to a high level of combat ability, not all Inquisitors operate that way.

 da001 wrote:

I think the average inquisitor is far worse of a warrior than the average, say, Sister Superior.

Which is not your average Sister.

Not all Inquisitors are fighters.

Can you name one that isn't?

And they don´t train nearly as much time.

Based on?

A Sister or an Astartes are always training or fighting.

Sisters also pray (So do at least some Astartes, I think), beat the gak out of themselves, and execute civilians.

Inquisitors have lots of different tasks to do. I can think of some examples in the fluff: Inquisitor Eisenhorn is amazed at the combat skill of kasrkins,

I am pretty sure that is not actually the case. Harlon Nayl was, but Eisenhorn? Do not recall.

And Eisenhorn gets far, far more powerful than those Kasrkins later. He'd kill the majority of Sisters OR Marines in single combat.

and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Who?

I looked on lexicanum but could not find her.

Anything you say about Inquisitors regarding martial skill can instantly be applied to Sisters, Comissars, Veterans and Stormtroopers

Potentially, yes.

On average? I doubt it.

This also ignores that an inquisitor in the game can't get this ability without the harsh training and sheer kickass to do so.

And yet, Eisenhorn killed a Space Marine in close combat.

Eisenhorn also fought a Daemonhost that blew up a Titan.

Point?

I can see moving your sword in such a way that it interposes itself between you and a bullet before it is fired, or as it is fired. I don't see moving your melee weapon into the path of a bullet that has already been fired.

Of course, if SM can dodge bullets, then I see no reason why a Sister could not do the same, as her faith in the God-Emperor permits her to move with such blinding speed and fury... or because the bullets simply will not dare to touch her, sheltered as she is in the hand of the Emperor.

Take your pick.



Eisenhorn killed one in his younger days by using an artifact of incredible potency and daemonic will to distract one (after having his ass soundly handed to him by said CSM) and then killed some way, way later in life when he's all hopped up on the daemon-juice. Using Eisenhorn, the main protagonist of his own series of BL novels as an example of common Inquisitors is... dodgy, at best.

 Troike wrote:

I disagree. All Sisters are trained in combat from early childhood, and continue this regime on a daily basis, only stopping when they're out fighting a war. Meanwhile, some Inquisitors are more inclined to rely on technology or their wits to succeed rather than actual combat ability. One-on-one, some Inquisitors would probably lose to the average Sister, assuming that the Inquisitor wasn't tippinng things in their favour with superior tech/equipment.

TL;DR, all Sisters are trained to a high level of combat ability, not all Inquisitors operate that way.

Citation? On the whole "Oh some Inquisitors aren't that great at combat". I understand it is all relative, not everyone can be an Eisenhorn or a Ravenor, but all have to be at least competent. Take Carl Thonius for example. Definitely prefers to rely on wits and his technical skills, but is also a nightmare in physical combat and a damn good shot. He is not the best fighter of Ravenor's retinue, but still extremely dangerous in personal combat. He is but an Interrogator, and Ravenor thinks the main thing holding him back in terms of ascending to Inquisitor is his neglect of combat manfighting.

I mean, sure, I guess Karamozov (sp?) off his amazing throne of masculinity would lose to your average Sister, but he's an old ass man who can barely walk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
I can see moving your sword in such a way that it interposes itself between you and a bullet before it is fired, or as it is fired. I don't see moving your melee weapon into the path of a bullet that has already been fired.

Of course, if SM can dodge bullets, then I see no reason why a Sister could not do the same, as her faith in the God-Emperor permits her to move with such blinding speed and fury... or because the bullets simply will not dare to touch her, sheltered as she is in the hand of the Emperor.

Take your pick.

I am pretty okay with that. It's a shame that I have never seen evidence of a Sister doing so, though I would argue higher-ranking martially inclined ones could.

You seem to think I have some dislikes for the Sisters. I don't. I just don't think they are as capable in most situations as a Space Marine. Most things aren't.

Eisenhorn killed one in his younger days by using an artifact of incredible potency and daemonic will to distract one (after having his ass soundly handed to him by said CSM) and then killed some way, way later in life when he's all hopped up on the daemon-juice. Using Eisenhorn, the main protagonist of his own series of BL novels as an example of common Inquisitors is... dodgy, at best.

I'd agree, he is one of the most formidable Inquisitors in history, in all likelihood.

The way way marines dodge bullets is to use all their enhanced senses to work out where their opponent is aiming and then make sure they arent there when the trigger is pulled.

Same theory applies to deflecting/parrying bullets.

It's all about the moments before the trigger is pulled.

There are many Inquisitors who are like Karamazov... they do the "book work" and the "mind work", but they rely on their retinue to do all the "grunt work". Perhaps, in their younger days, as Interrogators and such, they were more combat-capable, but we're not usually shown that. What we are shown is that the only truly identifying feature of an Inquisitor is an intelligent mind and a powerful force of will.

I would not go so far as to say that the average Inquisitor is the combat equal of the average Sister of Battle, in ranged or melee combat. I don't think they would be push-overs, necessarily, but I don't think they have a serious chance of beating one.

 Mythantor wrote:
The way way marines dodge bullets is to use all their enhanced senses to work out where their opponent is aiming and then make sure they arent there when the trigger is pulled.

Same theory applies to deflecting/parrying bullets.

It's all about the moments before the trigger is pulled.

Please prove this statement.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I think the average inquisitor is far worse of a warrior than the average, say, Sister Superior.

Which is not your average Sister.

Never said it was. I was just pointing out that you are defending "space marines are far better" while giving examples of "humans are awesome". It is confusing.

Not all Inquisitors are fighters.

Can you name one that isn't?

Sure.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ligeia#.UrDfAvTuIuc
Also, from the Thorians Sourcebook: "There exist no set criteria in regards to physical condition for a possible candidate when being selected to join the ranks of the Inquisition. All that is required is proof of intelligence and loyalty, which are key requisites for such a choice though there is no proper method of judging these attributes until later in life. However, there may exist an extraordinary circumstance which are uncommon practices which leads to an Inquisitor choosing a boy or girl whilst they are still within their teens though this is only the case if the subject shows exceptional ability. Generally, an Inquisitor will take note of an individual if they are a free-thinking person with will power and determination as well as unflinching principles."

I have no idea where did you get the idea that all Inquisitors are brutal warriors. That is not their job. Stormtroopers, Veterans, Sisters, Comissars are elite soldiers. Inquisitor are completely different from one another. Some are warriors, others are scribes.

And they don´t train nearly as much time.

Based on?

Any single book regarding an Inquisitor, I guess. They investigate things, go talk to people, attend parties, write reports... Get a copy of Eisenhorn. Great book.

A Sister or an Astartes are always training or fighting.

Sisters also pray (So do at least some Astartes, I think), beat the gak out of themselves, and execute civilians.

For a Sister (or an Astartes) pray and self-punishement is training too, and quite an important part.

Inquisitors have lots of different tasks to do. I can think of some examples in the fluff: Inquisitor Eisenhorn is amazed at the combat skill of kasrkins,

I am pretty sure that is not actually the case. Harlon Nayl was, but Eisenhorn? Do not recall.

Trying to find the quote. I will post it here if I have time. There is a possibility I misremembered and you are right, though I still think it is not the case. The book is written in first person, we are told what Eisenhorn feels, not what Harlon feels. (I think)

Anyway: if you read Eisenhorn, then you know they do a lot more things than fighting and training. Eisenhorn says that most of his work is reading and trying to get clues. The "action" part of the life of an Inquisitor is far less important than his "inquisitive" part.

And Eisenhorn gets far, far more powerful than those Kasrkins later. He'd kill the majority of Sisters OR Marines in single combat.

In which sense? Are you talking about conjuring demons or using archeotech? As a soldier, he cannot rival Harlon Nayl or that Arbites guy. Let alone a Sister.

and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Who?

I looked on lexicanum but could not find her.

Did you search by "Ligeia"? I did. See link above

Another one is Inquisitor Thaddeus. No page for him yet, only a page title : http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thaddeus_(Inquisitor)#.UrDnZ_TuIuc

Anything you say about Inquisitors regarding martial skill can instantly be applied to Sisters, Comissars, Veterans and Stormtroopers

Potentially, yes.

On average? I doubt it.

This also ignores that an inquisitor in the game can't get this ability without the harsh training and sheer kickass to do so.

And yet, Eisenhorn killed a Space Marine in close combat.

Eisenhorn also fought a Daemonhost that blew up a Titan.

Point?

With magic. Doesn´t count if we are talking about combat prowess. And Praxedes killed a Hive Tyrant. And Honsou lost an arm against a single human with a sword in a duel.

Anyway... what is your point? Humans can be incredible powerful in the setting. We know that. Astartes can be awesome too? Yeah. Can a human defeat a Primarch? It happened two times. Can a Ork kill the Emperor? One nearly did. The setting is open, everything is possible.

I don´t get your reasoning.

I am not sure how Inquisitors being more and less powerful than Sisters on average compensate the many sources already quoted stating that the Sisters are really close to Marines.

Edit: lots of typos

 Void__Dragon wrote:

and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Who?

I looked on lexicanum but could not find her.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Briseis_Ligeia#.UrDodmRDtLp

She was from those crappy Grey Knight books by Ben Counter. Her special psychic power was reading really fast.

 Psienesis wrote:
There are many Inquisitors who are like Karamazov... they do the "book work" and the "mind work", but they rely on their retinue to do all the "grunt work". Perhaps, in their younger days, as Interrogators and such, they were more combat-capable, but we're not usually shown that. What we are shown is that the only truly identifying feature of an Inquisitor is an intelligent mind and a powerful force of will.

I would not go so far as to say that the average Inquisitor is the combat equal of the average Sister of Battle, in ranged or melee combat. I don't think they would be push-overs, necessarily, but I don't think they have a serious chance of beating one.

Actually every single Inquisitor I have seen, be it Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Jarlsdottyr, Quixos, Voke, Coteaz, Valeria, Vail, or whoever has been to varying extents and in varying ways a very formidable combatant. Some, like Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Hector Rex, or Solomon are formidable in combat.

Even Karamazov is only held back by extreme age, he used to be a tuff gai.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I mean, sure, I guess Karamozov (sp?) off his amazing throne of masculinity would lose to your average Sister, but he's an old ass man who can barely walk.

And there we have it, Inquisitors can be old or otherwise physically ineffective. Meanwhile, Sisters either die young, get a juveant treatment or join a non-militant Order. That alone shows that not all Inquisitors could beat an SoB in combat. See, the point I'm making here is that an advantage of the Sisters is their consistency. All of them are well trained soldiers who started very young and have a daily training regime, and not all Inquisitors are in a state where they can compete with that. Likely because the primary job of an Inquisitor isn't just to combat things, but to study and understand too, so variation is permitted. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a more singular purpose, being good at fighting things.

The Eisenhorn series is, indeed, written from the point of view of Gregor... they are, in fact, his memoirs (as he makes comments at places that state things like "I can write this now, in this personal memoir, but at the time, it was a death sentence to anyone to reveal that the governor was dead" or some similar line in regards to the tragedy on Thracia Prime.)

The Ravenor series is more third-person, though is limited in that regard... or it may be that Ravenor is reading people's minds and including that content in his own memoirs.

(Ignore this, double post)

 Troike wrote:

And there we have it, Inquisitors can be old or otherwise physically ineffective. Meanwhile, Sisters either die young, get a juveant treatment or join a non-militant Order. That alone shows that not all Inquisitors could beat an SoB in combat.

A. I never said that.
B. Inquisitors get juvenat treatments.
C. Sisters of Battle age too, that they "join a non-militant Order" is very convenient and trying to tilt the averages by pointing out that decrepit Inquisitors are still Inquisitors yet decrepit Sisters of Battle are no longer Sisters of Battle reeks of exploiting a loophole much like the one justifying the Sister of Battle's very existence.

See, the point I'm making here is that an advantage of the Sisters is their consistency. All of them are well trained soldiers who started very young and have a daily training regime, and not all Inquisitors are in a state where they can compete with that.

We have an example of a very old guy, any more?

And even that "very old guy" has the vast bulk of the Sisters' numbers in combat were he permitted his chair, which is standard equipment.

Likely because the primary job of an Inquisitor isn't just to combat things, but to study and understand too, so variation is permitted. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a more singular purpose, being good at fighting things.

Don't Sisters also run the day to day operations of their local Imperial brainwashing factori- I mean temples as well? Though that might be handled by another Ordo.

Regardless, this mummer's farce has already run its course.

I don't dispute that a Sister of Battle could potentially achieve the level of martial prowess and speed as an Inquisitor with the "Deflect Shot" talent might, only that all Sisters would have such prowess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Eisenhorn series is, indeed, written from the point of view of Gregor... they are, in fact, his memoirs (as he makes comments at places that state things like "I can write this now, in this personal memoir, but at the time, it was a death sentence to anyone to reveal that the governor was dead" or some similar line in regards to the tragedy on Thracia Prime.)

The Ravenor series is more third-person, though is limited in that regard... or it may be that Ravenor is reading people's minds and including that content in his own memoirs.

I doubt Ravenor was reading the minds of cool young men like Kinsky, who was demonstrably more powerful than him, or Wystan Frauka, who is a Blank. Both share a scene together, alone.

I am just saying.

I still do not see your point.

There are many sources directly stating that Sisters are really close to Marines. Yet you deny it by saying that some Inquisitors are extremely powerful too?

But then you admit that a Sister can achieve the level of martial prowess of an Inquisitor.

So Inquisitors, Sisters, Comissars (Cain dueling a Khorne Berserker and mocking at him) and many others can give Astartes a fight. And?

I doubt Ravenor was reading the minds of cool young men like Kinsky, who was demonstrably more powerful than him, or Wystan Frauka, who is a Blank. Both share a scene together, alone.

I am just saying.

Relax, Beavis, it was a joke, because there are several chapters of the Ravenor series that Gideon, himself, was not present at. The Eisenhorn series does not feature these things, as it is Gregor's own autobiography.

Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if she passes her Deny the Witch roll. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box.

And if we were not permitting psychic powers in the first place, then he's really fethed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
The way way marines dodge bullets is to use all their enhanced senses to work out where their opponent is aiming and then make sure they arent there when the trigger is pulled.

Same theory applies to deflecting/parrying bullets.

It's all about the moments before the trigger is pulled.

Please prove this statement.

Physics. It's just a physical impossibility.
The one anecdote you present was by someone who was possessed by a demon. Demons don't follow the rules of physics and can either ignore them or maybe his perception of time allowed him to block the shots. Either way, it's simply physically impossible for a Marine to block a bolter round after it is fired. The amount of energy it would take to move a human limb fast enough would be absurd.

 da001 wrote:

There are many sources directly stating that Sisters are really close to Marines.

There are two. One of which was one of the "Reasons to buy this army" segments, IIRC.

Yet you deny it by saying that some Inquisitors are extremely powerful too?

I was mostly responding to Melissia's insistence that Space Marine physical superiority doesn't mean that much compared to the Sisters, I responded in ways it did, which, as usual, went over Dakka's collective Hive Mind.

But I do believe that generally Marines are better.

But then you admit that a Sister can achieve the level of martial prowess of an Inquisitor.

"Can" =/= "Usually does".

So Inquisitors, Sisters, Comissars (Cain dueling a Khorne Berserker and mocking at him) and many others can give Astartes a fight. And?

For the most part, no, they usually can't.

I refuse to comment on Ciaphas Cain on the grounds that it sucks and I personally dislike it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Physics. It's just a physical impossibility.

Obliterators: Physically possible.
Dodging a bullet: Physically impossible.

Got you.

The one anecdote you present was by someone who was possessed by a demon.

Haha, what?

And who was this daemon-possessed individual I apparently brought up?

The amount of energy it would take to move a human limb fast enough would be absurd.

Believe me, neither I nor the creators of 40k care.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A. I never said that.

But you acknowledged Karamazov exists, and his existence demonstrates the existence of Inquisitors who couldn't best an SoB in combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
B. Inquisitors get juvenat treatments.

And yet, some can apparently choose not to, and are allowed to remain elderly. It's apparently not a requirement for them to physically effective in combat, whilst for SoBs it would be. Granted, I have just recalled some 2E artwork depicting an elderly SoB. But she was swinging a power maul in said artwork, so it would seem that she was still quite combat effective.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
C. Sisters of Battle age too, that they "join a non-militant Order" is very convenient and trying to tilt the averages by pointing out that decrepit Inquisitors are still Inquisitors yet decrepit Sisters of Battle are no longer Sisters of Battle reeks of exploiting a loophole

But it's a valid point. Do elderly Inquisitors ever cease being Inquisitors? They don't seem to have a way out of their profession when they're elderly, whilst Sisters have an established thing of getting a different job when they're too old forn their current one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
We have an example of a very old guy, any more?

There's no need to provide additional examples, the old guy's existence shows that the Inquisition allows its members to be in a state where they are physically weak if they choose.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And even that "very old guy" has the vast bulk of the Sisters' numbers in combat were he permitted his chair, which is standard equipment.

But in a fairer fight, without any specialist equipment, he would lose to a Sister.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Don't Sisters also run the day to day operations of their local Imperial brainwashing factori- I mean temples as well?

Nope, that's the Ecclesiarchy's job. An SoB might be a guard at a temple, though.

An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

 Psienesis wrote:


Relax, Beavis, it was a joke, because there are several chapters of the Ravenor series that Gideon, himself, was not present at. The Eisenhorn series does not feature these things, as it is Gregor's own autobiography.

Calm down, I was playing the comically serious in this case.

Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if she passes her Deny the Witch roll. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box.

He is in a case made of Wraithbone, and has shown that he can crush people by propelling his chair forward, or just fire his Psycannons.

Also, gameplay mechanics huh? I don't care how well their Deny the Witch Roll goes, when he hits them in the face with a semi, they are going to feel it.

And if we were not permitting psychic powers in the first place, then he's really fethed.

Much like the Sisters would be if I arbitrarily disallowed their powered armour and bolters.

 Musashi363 wrote:
An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

He listed Argal Tal as his example, then didn't remember his own example. The guy could be living under a bridge. Then he listed another demon possessed/infused unit as his other example.

Also, Dakka's "collective hive mind?" Or maybe you're just wrong?

 Musashi363 wrote:
An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

But a Necron Wraith does eh?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

But a Necron Wraith does eh?

What does a necron wraith have to do with anything? Necrons have such a high level of technology that it can be considered magic. Once again, it has nothing to do with the impossibility of a space marine blocking or dodging bullets that have been fired.

 MWHistorian wrote:

He listed Argal Tal as his example, then didn't remember his own example. The guy could be living under a bridge. Then he listed another demon possessed/infused unit as his other example.

As amusing as your ad hominems and misplaced arrogance are, I think you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Argel Tal wasn't possessed by a Daemon when he deflected bolt rounds. That occurred during the ceremony where Ingethel became a Daemon (Princess? Maybe).

Argel Tal was turned into a Daemon/Astartes hybrid by daemon Ingethel.

Try to keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

What does a necron wraith have to do with anything? Necrons have such a high level of technology that it can be considered magic. Once again, it has nothing to do with the impossibility of a space marine blocking or dodging bullets that have been fired.

lol

B-but Space Marine biology is so advanced that it can also be considered magic.

I mean it was created by the greatest "mage" in the galaxy.

Not that any of your heckling is even vaguely relevant. I've already proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that even Inquisitors are capable of these feats if they are l33t enough.

Void__Dragon wrote:DEFLECT SHOT
The character uses his extremely fast reflexes to deflect incoming fire with a parry from his weapon. A character can only use deflect shot when armed with a power weapon or force weapon. If the character is hit by enemy shooting, he can try to deflect it. If he can roll under the enemyís To Hit roll on a D100, the shot is deflected and has no effect. For example, if the opposing player rolls 56 to hit, a roll of 55 or less will deflect the shot. If the deflecting character can roll 1/10th or less of the enemyís To Hit roll, the shot is rebounded straight back at the firer who is hit instead! To follow the previous example, any Deflect roll of 6 or less will rebound the shot. A character can attempt to deflect a number of shooting hits per turn equal to his Speed. A character cannot deflect a deflected shot!

Didn't you forget something?

"Deflect Shot may be used against pistol shots in close combat instead of dodging, but not against shooting hits from outside the close combat."
- the following sentence



Anyways, I'm all for using GW's Inquisitor system in such discussions! Clear rules and numbers are so much better than potentially exceptional incidents or skewed stories.

Let's see ...

Space Marine wrote:Weapon Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Strength: 200 (185+4d10) +40 from PA
Toughness: 150 (125+4d10)
Initiative: 85 (55+3d10)
Speed: 5
Willpower: 75 (70+3d10)
Sagacity: 75 (60+3d10)
Nerve: 95 (60+3d10)
Leadership: 75 (70+2d6)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10) with 3 pts of Ceramite Ablative Armour on Chest/Legs/Arms
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Ambidextrous, Nerves of Steel, Spit Acid

Battle Sister wrote:Weapon Skill: 60 (50+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 65 (55+2d10)
Strength: 55 (45+2d6) +11 from PA
Toughness: 55 (50+2d10)
Initiative: 55 (45+2d10)
Speed: 4
Willpower: 60 (50+3d10)
Sagacity: 65 (55+2d6)
Nerve: 75 (70+2d10)
Leadership: 75 (65+2d10)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10)
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Acts of Faith

The average damage of a boltgun is 15 points (5.5+5.5+4.0), which is sufficient to punch through both characters' armour (simultaneously shaving off the Marine's 3 points of additional ablative ceramite with the first shot). This means that, on average, every single shot will wound each of the combatants.

The Marine's Base Injury value is 15 (150/10), whereas the Sister has a Base Injury value of 5 (55/2). This means that an attack penetrating the armour would have to do more than 15 points of damage to inflict more than a single level of Injury to the Marine, whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering 5 points of damage before the injury is worsened by one degree.

What this means in relation to this specific case is that the Space Marine can only ever suffer a single injury from an attack - the boltgun's maximum damage is 24, but it would take at least 26 points (AV 10 plus BIV 15 = 25) to cause two levels of injury at once. The Sister on the other hand is less resilient; even though the average bolter hit would have the same effect, a lucky (or unlucky, depending on perspective) hit could cause two or even three injury levels at once.

Inquisitor uses a rather lethal (or "realistic") injury model where each hit location only has five injury levels - or four, for headshots. Both the Space Marine and the Battle Sister would require the same amount of minimum hits to cripple or kill them (~4), but the Sister could be taken out much sooner if the Marine manages to land even just one or two well-placed shots (meaning, rolling above the average).
Additionally, aside from location based injury effects (which may trigger system shock or outright slay the character), both characters also have an Injury Total equal to their Toughness score, and whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering up to 55 points of cumulative damage (regardless of location), a Marine can take up to a whopping 150 points. You can literally shoot off several limbs and still have him try to fight you, Black Knight-style!

In closing, this means that the Space Marine has a clear edge over the Sister, yet the equal quality of their arms and armour would make any duel a brutal encounter that could still go either way. Needless to say, if you throw in battlefield environments, other wargear, squad tactics and the element of surprise, the results would become even less predictable. Any encounter would certainly be an interesting fight.

Note that for the above scenario I did not use Inquisitor's Recovery rules, nor did I have the Sister make use of her Acts of Faith abilities. A GM could also rule that the Sister gets a bonus to hit the Space Marine due to his size - as per RAW, a target at least 50% larger than an average human confers a +30% to-hit bonus, with smaller differences being dependent on GM fiat. Personally, I might have considered a +10% bonus (thinking that a bulky Astartes would be at least 117% the size of a human), which would bring both characters' Ballistic Skill to the same level. Not that it would change much for a duel (but it would likely play a bigger role in a battle with cover and multiple enemies).

Psienesis wrote:I can see moving your sword in such a way that it interposes itself between you and a bullet before it is fired, or as it is fired. I don't see moving your melee weapon into the path of a bullet that has already been fired.
Of course, if SM can dodge bullets, then I see no reason why a Sister could not do the same, as her faith in the God-Emperor permits her to move with such blinding speed and fury... or because the bullets simply will not dare to touch her, sheltered as she is in the hand of the Emperor.

Deflect Shot actually is a special Talent, and one that (aside from that conveniently omitted last sentence mentioned at the beginning of this post) Space Marines do not have. Interestingly, the only character in the rulebook who has it is an Inquisitor.
This also means that, in theory, any well-trained human with a certain knack for fast reaction could gain this ability, Marine or no. Not that it'd be particularly useful, given that it's no use against ranged attacks from outside CC.

Troike wrote:And yet, some can apparently choose not to, and are allowed to remain elderly. It's apparently not a requirement for them to physically effective in combat, whilst for SoBs it would be. Granted, I have just recalled some 2E artwork depicting an elderly SoB. But she was swinging a power maul in said artwork, so it would seem that she was still quite combat effective.

Veteran Sisters get juvenat treatments too, anyways. I doubt Canoness Carmina could still lead her Order from the front otherwise if she has held her position as commander for almost a century.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Much like the Sisters would be if I arbitrarily disallowed their powered armour and bolters.

Why would they do badly without power armour or bolters? They're still in peak physical condition. And zealous nutters to boot, so they'll be fighting hard.

LOL. Wow.

I'm done arguing with a 12 year old.

 Troike wrote:

But you acknowledged Karamazov exists, and his existence demonstrates the existence of Inquisitors who couldn't best an SoB in combat.

When not on his chair.

And yet, some can apparently choose not to, and are allowed to remain elderly.

You are aware that Juvenat treatment isn't perfect, correct? That it doesn't make you live forever?

It's apparently not a requirement for them to physically effective in combat, whilst for SoBs it would be. Granted, I have just recalled some 2E artwork depicting an elderly SoB. But she was swinging a power maul in said artwork, so it would seem that she was still quite combat effective.

Considering how every Inquisitor, when Juvenat has been mentioned, has used it, yeah, it probably is pretty required.

Inquisitors are not normal people. They are, in of themselves, more talented and better than just about everyone else in the Imperium. Including the Sisters. They are able to be excellent spies, tacticians, diplomats, and warriors without sacrificing any of these attributes to any great degree. They are above average in all or most respects.

But it's a valid point. Do elderly Inquisitors ever cease being Inquisitors? They don't seem to have a way out of their profession when they're elderly, whilst Sisters have an established thing of getting a different job when they're too old forn their current one.

It hasn't been said. Ravenor I believe mentions that few really get old, but even old ones like Voke are formidable personally (Granted, Voke is a psyker).

There's no need to provide additional examples, the old guy's existence shows that the Inquisition allows its members to be in a state where they are physically weak if they choose.

He doesn't get a choice, why are you being so obtuse?

And in combat, due to his equipment, he'd still wreck house against most beings in the galaxy.

But in a fairer fight, without any specialist equipment, he would lose to a Sister.

Lol.

A "fairer fight" in your view is taking away the equipment of a decrepit old man against a young soldier in power armour?

Sure.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
LOL. Wow.

I'm done arguing with a 12 year old.

I am sorry that you made childish insults against someone based upon your own misinformed knowledge, and was in turn shown to be wrong by the person you were insulting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Why would they do badly without power armour or bolters? They're still in peak physical condition. And zealous nutters to boot, so they'll be fighting hard.

They'll be punching Wraithbone with their bare hands (Or maybe a combat knife? Is that standard issue for a Sister?).

Dude, the only thing you proved was that you need to calm down. You are acting like a little child.

 Lynata wrote:
Didn't you forget something?

"Deflect Shot may be used against pistol shots in close combat instead of dodging, but not against shooting hits from outside the close combat."
- the following sentence

You are aware that you would need to be faster to block a bullet from up close than far away, correct?

I assume you can't do it from far away because you have no real notion of where the bullet is coming from nor can you see the rather small bullet itself.

Anyways, I'm all for using GW's Inquisitor system in such discussions! Clear rules and numbers are so much better than potentially exceptional incidents or skewed stories.

Let's see ...

Space Marine wrote:Weapon Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Strength: 200 (185+4d10) +40 from PA
Toughness: 150 (125+4d10)
Initiative: 85 (55+3d10)
Speed: 5
Willpower: 75 (70+3d10)
Sagacity: 75 (60+3d10)
Nerve: 95 (60+3d10)
Leadership: 75 (70+2d6)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10) with 3 pts of Ceramite Ablative Armour on Chest/Legs/Arms
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Ambidextrous, Nerves of Steel, Spit Acid

Battle Sister wrote:Weapon Skill: 60 (50+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 65 (55+2d10)
Strength: 55 (45+2d6) +11 from PA
Toughness: 55 (50+2d10)
Initiative: 55 (45+2d10)
Speed: 4
Willpower: 60 (50+3d10)
Sagacity: 65 (55+2d6)
Nerve: 75 (70+2d10)
Leadership: 75 (65+2d10)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10)
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Acts of Faith

The average damage of a boltgun is 15 points (5.5+5.5+4.0), which is sufficient to punch through both characters' armour (simultaneously shaving off the Marine's 3 points of additional ablative ceramite with the first shot). This means that, on average, every single shot will wound each of the combatants.

The Marine's Base Injury value is 15 (150/10), whereas the Sister has a Base Injury value of 5 (55/2). This means that an attack penetrating the armour would have to do more than 15 points of damage to inflict more than a single level of Injury to the Marine, whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering 5 points of damage before the injury is worsened by one degree.

What this means in relation to this specific case is that the Space Marine can only ever suffer a single injury from an attack - the boltgun's maximum damage is 24, but it would take at least 26 points (AV 10 plus BIV 15 = 25) to cause two levels of injury at once. The Sister on the other hand is less resilient; even though the average bolter hit would have the same effect, a lucky (or unlucky, depending on perspective) hit could cause two or even three injury levels at once.

Inquisitor uses a rather lethal (or "realistic") injury model where each hit location only has five injury levels - or four, for headshots. Both the Space Marine and the Battle Sister would require the same amount of minimum hits to cripple or kill them (~4), but the Sister could be taken out much sooner if the Marine manages to land even just one or two well-placed shots (meaning, rolling above the average).
Additionally, aside from location based injury effects (which may trigger system shock or outright slay the character), both characters also have an Injury Total equal to their Toughness score, and whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering up to 55 points of cumulative damage (regardless of location), a Marine can take up to a whopping 150 points. You can literally shoot off several limbs and still have him try to fight you, Black Knight-style!

In closing, this means that the Space Marine has a clear edge over the Sister, yet the equal quality of their arms and armour would make any duel a brutal encounter that could still go either way. Needless to say, if you throw in battlefield environments, other wargear, squad tactics and the element of surprise, the results would become even less predictable. Any encounter would certainly be an interesting fight.

Note that for the above scenario I did not use Inquisitor's Recovery rules, nor did I have the Sister make use of her Acts of Faith abilities. A GM could also rule that the Sister gets a bonus to hit the Space Marine due to his size - as per RAW, a target at least 50% larger than an average human confers a +30% to-hit bonus, with smaller differences being dependent on GM fiat. Personally, I might have considered a +10% bonus (thinking that a bulky Astartes would be at least 117% the size of a human), which would bring both characters' Ballistic Skill to the same level. Not that it would change much for a duel (but it would likely play a bigger role in a battle with cover and multiple enemies).

I don't really like to argue for or against mechanics, especially not in a system where a Space Marine throwing his bolter apparently does more damage than firing it (Is this true?),

]Deflect Shot actually is a special Talent, and one that (aside from that conveniently omitted last sentence mentioned at the beginning of this post) Space Marines do not have. Interestingly, the only character in the rulebook who has it is an Inquisitor.
This also means that, in theory, any well-trained human with a certain knack for fast reaction could gain this ability, Marine or no. Not that it'd be particularly useful, given that it's no use against ranged attacks from outside CC.

I have consistently noted that a superior human of any faction could perform the feat (As can Eldar, with even greater ease, just a fun fact).

Is there a reason a Space Marine can not get access to the Talent? You know quite a bit more about the system than I do, but from what I see the Space Marines only have a few unique talents in their pdf thing, and draw the rest for a character from the core.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:
Dude, the only thing you proved was that you need to calm down. You are acting like a little child.

Explain to me how so.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You are aware that Juvenat treatment isn't perfect, correct? That it doesn't make you live forever?

Right, so they're apparently kept on even when the treatments start to fail, if we're assuming that all Inquisitors take them. Therefore, we can have elderly Inquisitors , but elderly SoB get transferred out.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Inquisitors are not normal people.

Neither are Sisters! Indoctrinated from birth, trained in combat from an early age and complete and utter zeal in their cause.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are above average in all or most respects.

"In all or most respects", you say? So an Inquisitor who wasn't stellar in combat would still be allowed? Again, this is a key point: Inquisitors can vary in how they are, but Sisters are far more consistent.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He doesn't get a choice

Irrelevant. He's still an active Inquisitor, which proves that physically frail Inquisitors are allowed and that not all of them could beat an SoB in combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And in combat, due to his equipment, he'd still wreck house against most beings in the galaxy.

Yes, this a major advantage of Inquisitors, access to superior equipment. But take that away, and they're not necessarily too great in a fight.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A "fairer fight" in your view is taking away the equipment of a decrepit old man against a young soldier in power armour?

I meant just taking away his chair, not any other weapon he might be able to carry.

But okay, let's take away all of their arms and armour, just a straight physical fight, no equipment-bestowed advantages. The Sister would win that one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They'll be punching Wraithbone with their bare hands (Or maybe a combat knife? Is that standard issue for a Sister?).

Okay, I conceed, I did miss the part where you mentioned that he's encased in wraithbone. But my point stands, even without her equipment a Sister is still quite effective in combat.

Actually, that was rude of me and it was uncalled for. I apologize.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Actually, that was rude of me and it was uncalled for. I apologize.

I accept your apology. I too apologize for any rudeness on my part.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:


Relax, Beavis, it was a joke, because there are several chapters of the Ravenor series that Gideon, himself, was not present at. The Eisenhorn series does not feature these things, as it is Gregor's own autobiography.

Calm down, I was playing the comically serious in this case.

Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if she passes her Deny the Witch roll. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box.

He is in a case made of Wraithbone, and has shown that he can crush people by propelling his chair forward, or just fire his Psycannons.

Also, gameplay mechanics huh? I don't care how well their Deny the Witch Roll goes, when he hits them in the face with a semi, they are going to feel it.

And if we were not permitting psychic powers in the first place, then he's really fethed.

Much like the Sisters would be if I arbitrarily disallowed their powered armour and bolters.

If we're not permitting any gear, Gideon Ravenor is a burned lump of meat. He's nothing without his chair (which is not Wraithbone, incidentally, it is of Imperial manufacture).

His Psycannons require his telekinetic powers to function. If we're dismissing the use of psychic powers (because this is a hand-to-hand fight) then he can't even pull the triggers.

As we saw with his fight with the Tyranid, his chair isn't exactly a tank. It can stop small-arms, sure, but a bolter will probably tear it apart.

And I could as easily say "Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if her mental fortitude and faith allows her to ignore his psychic abilities. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box"
The Chair also cannot crush people. The best he's ever done with it is pin someone against a wall, which you could do with a regular office chair or a shopping cart. It's not equipped with a dozer blade.

Void__Dragon wrote:You are aware that you would need to be faster to block a bullet from up close than far away, correct?
I assume you can't do it from far away because you have no real notion of where the bullet is coming from nor can you see the rather small bullet itself.

I think the reasoning behind this was an alternative form of parrying - you're moving your blade to counter the opponent's (essentially placing an obstacle before the barrel), just that your opponent is using a gun instead of a melee weapon.

Anyways, I thought I saw a discussion about superior reflexes and dodging bullets, and then the mention of the Deflect Shot talent, so I thought this needed clarification.

It's worth pointing out that in Inquisitor, Dodging ranged weapons is a special talent as well. Everyone can attempt to dodge melee attacks, but just like Deflect Shot you need to be "special" in order to react to a gunshot.

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't really like to argue for or against mechanics, especially not in a system where a Space Marine throwing his bolter apparently does more damage than firing it (Is this true?)

Mechanics are a double-edged sword, of course, but I like them because in games that cater to multiple sorts of characters, they tend to treat everyone fairly - the same cannot be said about the fluff, which this thread once more demonstrates nicely.

You have a point about the thrown bolter - this is a result of the Marine's humongous Strength bonus that he would apply to any melee or thrown attack. A bolter round still has a higher maximum damage (24 per shot), but if thrown it would actually have a higher minimum damage (18) just because the Marine adds +15 on top of the Improvised Weapon's own meager damage profile (1d3+2).
On the upside, since the bolter is an Improvised Throwing Weapon, it'd not lend itself well to throwing in this system ... but truth be told, I'd say it would make for a cool "finisher" if the Astartes would kill an injured opponent with a thrown boltgun that only moments ago clicked empty.

It's a bit worse in FFG's 40k RPGs because their weapons do less basic damage compared to the guns in Inquisitor and the armour is less protective, which I believe is part of the reason for why they buffed all the Marine weapons to at least mitigate the issue somewhat.

Void__Dragon wrote:Is there a reason a Space Marine can not get access to the Talent? You know quite a bit more about the system than I do, but from what I see the Space Marines only have a few unique talents in their pdf thing, and draw the rest for a character from the core.

No particular reason, it's just that the average Marine doesn't have it. The special talents are partially stuff that is reserved for unique characters - a named SC (to use a tabletop term) Marine could have it, as could a Sister, but they'd be exceptional individuals for doing so.
Neither the average Marine nor the average Sister can dodge ranged weapons in this system, too - but any Psyker could trigger a power that temporarily grants him this talent, and then there are some exceptional characters who have it by default, such as the Death Cultist twins Severina and Sevora, or Enforcer Barbaretta.

By default, characters in Inquisitor do not really "level up" like in Dark Heresy - you roll them up, and that's it. Depending on the GM, you could make a custom character who has one or more special talents, though, just like a GM could say "okay, your character was consistently awesome throughout the campaign so far, from now on you can do X".

Troike wrote:Yes, this a major advantage of Inquisitors, access to superior equipment. But take that away, and they're not necessarily too great in a fight.

That's really the main problem I see in a potential confrontation between an Inquisitor and a Battle Sister. Every SoB will have powered armour and a bolter (or worse), whereas there's a whole lot of Inquisitors running around in nothing but a fancy coat and a pistol.
Their ability profiles in GW's Inquisitor game are superior to both a Sister's and a Marine's, though ... except for the Marine's Strength and Toughness, obviously.

That's a bit sad. You could rule the RPG just running around with a SW character and a throwing axe...

agnosto wrote:That's a bit sad. You could rule the RPG just running around with a SW character and a throwing axe...

The bolter still wins by being more accurate, allowing bursts and having 20 rounds in the magazine (if sickle), though.
Average damage is almost equal, true, but then again it's a Space Marine, and even I grant them their uberpwnage in close combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

There are many sources directly stating that Sisters are really close to Marines.

There are two. One of which was one of the "Reasons to buy this army" segments, IIRC.

What do you mean "two"?

I provided some sources, but not from the Codexes.
1) Codexes. In this regard, Lynata is better than me and has provided you lots of quotes from just about any single source about the Sisters ever published. From Codex Imperialis to 6th Edition, Sisters have been consistently depicted as nearly equal to Marines or, to be blunt, equal to Marines. You may disregard all Codexes as "unfluffy", but, well, OK... you are using your free-style interpretation of the setting here.

If you limit yourself to Codexes, there is no contradiction: Sisters = Marines. Period. It has always be this way for over 25 years. And every source says the same.

2) Books. I gave two sources. There are more. However, books are not that consistent, and you can find books where the Sisters are just little girls scared at the MIGHTY SPACE MARINES, and go like "omg a SPACE MARINE all my training and combat experience and melta guns so effective against xenos, mutants, psykers, demons and what not is useless because they are MARINES, but IN SPACE!!!". It is usually the same books that depict Marines charging full armies including tanks and stopping a planetary invasion by hitting the enemy with their axes.

I propose you something: you quote me one source depicting the Sisters as inferior to Marines and I will provide you one where a single Sister wins a one-to-one brutal combat against a Space Marine due to her skill. Usually after a brutal fight, were both of them hit each other yet are unable to go through the armour, and where the Sisters dodge attacks from a Marine in melee.

3) RPGs. I know very few of them. For the information people is giving here, it seems to me a fight between a Sister and a Marine would be brutal.

4) Videogames. Dawn of War depicts the Sisters and Marines exactly as they are described in the tabletop game.

5) Tabletop. People tend to discard this, yet we are told that the tabletop is there to bring the background to live. Sisters = 12 points, Marines = 14 points, 13 if they are Chaos. Veterans are 7 points. So yes, Sisters are "between Veterans and Marines", but really, really close to Marines.

Yet you deny it by saying that some Inquisitors are extremely powerful too?

I was mostly responding to Melissia's insistence that Space Marine physical superiority doesn't mean that much compared to the Sisters, I responded in ways it did, which, as usual, went over Dakka's collective Hive Mind.

Ok I get it. I am focussing on the Sisters from now on.

Void__Dragon, I love you and I want your babies.

A Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine impregnated with the seed of a C´tan Star God?

Sounds cool to me. I would recommend the name "Macarena" for your first baby.

A full Sister taskforce should be roughly comparable to a similarly sized Astartes force. The Marines are better equipped and more flexible given their self-sufficient nature and expanded mission statement, but if the task is to purge a hab block or some such, both armies should be equally effective.

Sisters achieve this parity through combined arms and their collective faith. A heroic Sister may well defeat a less exceptional Space Marine, but a bog standard sister is no match for an average Marine, barring a lucky shot.

 da001 wrote:
A Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine impregnated with the seed of a C´tan Star God?

Sounds cool to me. I would recommend the name "Macarena" for your first baby.

Brb writing slash fic asap

A daemonic entity and a C'Tan? That's taking interracial to a whole 'nother level.

Somehow, a gay slash fan fiction seems an appropriate ending to one of LightKing's threads. I can't believe this gak has been going on for 6 pages.

 Omegus wrote:
A full Sister taskforce should be roughly comparable to a similarly sized Astartes force. The Marines are better equipped and more flexible given their self-sufficient nature and expanded mission statement, but if the task is to purge a hab block or some such, both armies should be equally effective.

Sisters achieve this parity through combined arms and their collective faith. A heroic Sister may well defeat a less exceptional Space Marine, but a bog standard sister is no match for an average Marine, barring a lucky shot.

^This is more or less my opinion too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:
A Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine impregnated with the seed of a C´tan Star God?

Sounds cool to me. I would recommend the name "Macarena" for your first baby.

Brb writing slash fic asap

Eagerly waiting for it

Oh, oh, I got a pickup line!

"Hey baby, mind if I stick some necrodermis in your metal box?"

I am not sure if it would count as gay. After all, I doubt a C'tan has a gender, and do Daemons have genders? If the possessed is pulsating enough, I am sure he... She... It... Can come across as either!

Tentacles and Iron- An upcoming epic story of how a heroic slimy Possessed embarks on an epic journey through time and space, fighting his fears, the bullies at Possessed-school, and the Grey Knights. Eventually he succeeds in securing Lady Malys' Crystal Heart and offers it to his beloved, the fair lady Void Dragon, thus winning her hand and living happily forever after.

Here is an exclusive extract:

He slowly ran his dripping tentacles down her perfect skin, caressing her with all of a lover's care. She shuddered and pulled him close to her, taking him into her warm, divine embrace. The two could feel the passion in the air. He looked into her black eyes and slowly moved his tendrils closer to the release button on his mutated armour...

For more steaming, slimy romance and heroism, pre-order Tentacles and Iron today!

The Void Dragon is implied to be male, yes.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Void Dragon is implied to be male, yes.

Just like how you call Tzeentch 'he'.

I doubt Tzeentch has a <CENSORED>.

The male pronoun "he" is the default pronoun for non-gender-specific uses in the English language. That's not what I'm talking about.

What I am talking about is the implication that the C'Tan have a concept of gender, and the Void Dragon was male.

 Psienesis wrote:
The male pronoun "he" is the default pronoun for non-gender-specific uses in the English language. That's not what I'm talking about.

What I am talking about is the implication that the C'Tan have a concept of gender, and the Void Dragon was male.

Can you source that?

The old C'Tan write-up GW used to host for Mag'ladroth and the old write-up they had for the Eldar Mythology.

Also, I seem to recall there being a story of the Dragon fighting the Emperor on Medieval Earth, and a few references in Mechanicum.

 Psienesis wrote:
The old C'Tan write-up GW used to host for Mag'ladroth and the old write-up they had for the Eldar Mythology.

Also, I seem to recall there being a story of the Dragon fighting the Emperor on Medieval Earth, and a few references in Mechanicum.

How old is this? I am always a bit iffy about people propagating really old stuff, since some of it is very, very... Eh.

Not that old, expanded upon in Mechanicum and a follow-up book I can't remember. Emperor put him on Mars on purpose to inspire the Mechanicum so he can later use all the cool toys they invent to take over the universe.

How old is this? I am always a bit iffy about people propagating really old stuff, since some of it is very, very... Eh.

o.0

You... do realize that some of the lore we have on these various factions is older than many of the people posting on these forums, right?

While updates to Codices or Black Library novels might change, update or alter things that were printed before, they usually don't. In fact, the change from 3E Necrons to 5E Necrons only really changes the nature of the relationship between the Necrons and the C'Tan. Everything else is, ultimately, flavor.

Whether the Emperor fought the Void Dragon on ancient Terra and then trapped it on Mars, or whether that was just a shard, or whether the Dragon of Mars is not the C'Tan at all is still unchanged.

 Psienesis wrote:

How old is this? I am always a bit iffy about people propagating really old stuff, since some of it is very, very... Eh.

o.0

You... do realize that some of the lore we have on these various factions is older than many of the people posting on these forums, right?

While updates to Codices or Black Library novels might change, update or alter things that were printed before, they usually don't. In fact, the change from 3E Necrons to 5E Necrons only really changes the nature of the relationship between the Necrons and the C'Tan. Everything else is, ultimately, flavor.

Whether the Emperor fought the Void Dragon on ancient Terra and then trapped it on Mars, or whether that was just a shard, or whether the Dragon of Mars is not the C'Tan at all is still unchanged.

I am not saying all old lore is bad.

I am saying some of the old lore is really really out of place and implausible in the current developed 40K setting, and obviously outdated.

I want to make sure it is not of the latter category, and knowing the source and/or context would help.

I am a man.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I am a man.

Okay.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note, still want your babies though.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

He slowly ran his dripping tentacles down her perfect skin, caressing her with all of a lover's care. She shuddered and pulled him close to her, taking him into her warm, divine embrace. The two could feel the passion in the air. He looked into her black eyes and slowly moved his tendrils closer to the release button on his mutated armour...

I am glad this Sisters of Battle topic has stayed outside the usual bunch of sexual slurs, sadomasochistic references, period jokes and "Sisters go Slaanesh" filth. Instead, we have managed to keep this thread focused through a civilized, culturally enriching conversation. About time people here showed maturity.

I really like this "Tentacles and Iron" thing. Hope it is a massive success. People need more insanity in their lives.

Good idea giving possessed a "release button" for their armours.

 da001 wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

He slowly ran his dripping tentacles down her perfect skin, caressing her with all of a lover's care. She shuddered and pulled him close to her, taking him into her warm, divine embrace. The two could feel the passion in the air. He looked into her black eyes and slowly moved his tendrils closer to the release button on his mutated armour...

I am glad this Sisters of Battle topic has stayed outside the usual bunch of sexual slurs, sadomasochistic references, period jokes and "Sisters go Slaanesh" filth. Instead, we have managed to keep this thread focused through a civilized, culturally enriching conversation. About time people here showed maturity.

I really like this "Tentacles and Iron" thing. Hope it is a massive success. People need more insanity in their lives.

Good idea giving possessed a "release button" for their armours.

You never know when you need to provide quick love to a partner in need.

This reminds me of a Paul Bunyan vs./X Cthulhu story I am writing, about how Paul, as the fifth dimensional champion of Mankind, must fight the love of his immortal life Cthulhu to the death, for the good of Earth. I am not sure why.

I never heard of this Paul Bunyan, and I have no idea why you would write a slash fic about and him I

For it to be a slash fic, both parties would need to be the same gender.

Cthulhu is female.

So...rule 63 then.

This thread has gone places. Places where no thread should ever go. Slaanesh is pleased.

 Lynata wrote:

LightKing wrote:i guess in fluff, SOB have always been = to Space Marines
is this true?

Now, that depends entirely on who writes the fluff - both about the Sisters as well as the Marines. A question like this taps into the perception of not only one but two forces.

Games Workshop once had this on their website:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."
- src

To propose an argument based around this notion, consider that the vast majority of a Space Marine's implants, just like most of the additional gadgets of his power armour, are highly circumstantial - abilities like spitting acid, being able to gain another's memory by eating their brains, or putting yourself in artificial coma may give you an edge in very specific situations, but won't mean squat in a straight shoot-out. What might aid the Marine here are his reinforced bones, the fast-clotting blood, the secondary heart and his genetically enhanced physical strength.

However, one of 40k's most important themes is the terrible destructive power of its futuristic weaponry, and even ceramic-reinforced bones may not stop an armour-piercing miniature missile with an explosive warhead, whereas the heart and the blood are more about making sure the Marine does not die from critical injury rather than being able to prevent them.
The Sororitas, on the other hand, even though having trained for a longer time than the Marine (assuming they are both of the same age), is still a pure human being behind an equally protective suit of armour, which means that anything that punches through that inch of ceramite will ultimately hurt her a lot more than it would hurt the Marine. Yet, what the aforementioned quote is referring to is a Sister's ability to channel her faith in a way that lets her potentially ignore these injuries and just keep moving and fighting even though she is mortally wounded.
Ultimately, this creates the possibility of a Marine and a Sister both "surviving" the same kind of physical punishment, with the Sister dying after the battle has ended whereas the Marine can be medevac'ed and returned to active duty after some time in his Chapter's apothecarion. In tabletop terms, this is represented with the Marine's more reliable T4 as opposed to a T3 Sister's potentially more powerful but less reliable Shield of Faith.

tl;dr: Generally, I would say that Sisters of Battle, lacking the genetic enhancements of the Space Marines, are overall less capable, but that their Acts of Faith allow them to temporarily surpass even the Astartes. In a way, that may well suffice to say they are equal - in-universe, both forces at least share respect for each other, and one of the Sisterhood's tasks is hunting down rogue Astartes Chapters.

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."
- 2E C:SoB


Obviously, with the fluff being somewhat malleable and open for interpretation, GW's vision of the Sororitas may not be shared by everyone. Certain Black Library novels in particular paint the Sisters in a much less capable way, usually to make the Marines look more awesome (*coughcough*). In the end, the Sisters are about as equal as you, the individual gamer and reader, want them to be.

Mythantor wrote:According to the latest SoB Codex ther is an unknown number of SoB. Each of the major order is split into a number of different sections each of which can number up to 1000 sisters.

Not quite - you are referring to the Minor Orders, which have split off from the Major ones. These subsidiary conventy can vary in strength from 1.000 members to a single Sister, with the average at about a hundred. They operate independently from the Major Orders and tend to be limited to local operations, lacking both the (wo)manpower and the means to participate in the really big conflicts, which is why you tend to only ever read about the six Major Orders (each of whom "currently" has about ~3.500 Sisters, though at peak times this number has been known to rise to 6.000).

The total number of Minor Orders is unknown - one could theorise based on the 2.500 years it took the Sororitas to reach the 30.000 mark, or on GW's force disposition charts for the Third Armageddon War and the 13th Black Crusade, but ultimately it remains a matter of speculation. My own guesstimate is at around 100k, maybe 200k. The Major Orders, being a crusading force, are bound to have a lot of attrition, which is why earlier Codex fluff mentioned their numbers fluctuating so much, posing a constant drain on the influx of new recruits from the Schola Progenium.

Spitting acid is not circumstantial in the slightest. It's an instant "I win" button in one on one combat where both are unarmed. Or reloading, or close together. It's pretty damn useful.
To those who think marines benching 2500 lbs unarmored, the average marine is 8ft tall and the worlds best strongman, Andy Bolton is less than 6'3 if I recall. Andy can bench 700lbs raw. Someone who makes Andy look like a dwarf in physical size with the same proportional muscle mass, and genetics could easily put up 1500lbs raw. This is ignoring the multiple hearts, and heavily enhanced muscles making them multitudes stronger.
This is ignoring the sillier stuff like marines shaping steel with thier hands (Thousand Sons) and dodging bullets point blank.

I am not sure if this is going anywhere. This seems more opinion-based than anything else. For every source that says 'SoB can equal Marines' there is something like 'Marines are far above what any human can reach' and things like that.

Just take what you prefer and go with it.

so it seems like you are all agreeing that a sister is stronger then a marine..

but against a primarch=dead sister

LightKing wrote:
so it seems like you are all agreeing that a sister is stronger then a marine..

but against a primarch=dead sister

What? I do not think anyone was...

What? Just whaaaaat?

Everyone is agreeing on that a Marine is equal to or superior to his SoB counterpart.

Primarch VS Sister? I think you'll struggle to find anyone saying anything else than an easy win for the Primarch.

Yeah, not really the way the thread went. In fact I don't think that anybody claimed that Sisters were superior. Maybe in terms of faith, but that's all.

 Troike wrote:
Yeah, not really the way the thread went. In fact I don't think that anybody claimed that Sisters were superior. Maybe in terms of faith, but that's all.

Indeed. Battlefield-wise, everyone said that Marines were equal to or superior to Sisters.

Seems reasonable, but then, 'equal to or superior' is a rather broad description.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Spitting acid is not circumstantial in the slightest. It's an instant "I win" button in one on one combat where both are unarmed.

It also means you're not wearing the helmet that keeps bolter shells, chain swords and other nuisances out of your face. IIRC the marines more often use the acid for gnawing through substances that would otherwise be hard to chew, like if they have to try surviving off ingesting normally inedible materials. And several Chapters don't have the organ functional anyway - at least those of Imperial Fist lineage on the loyalist side have lost it.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Spitting acid is not circumstantial in the slightest. It's an instant "I win" button in one on one combat where both are unarmed. Or reloading, or close together. It's pretty damn useful.

It is completely useless against soldiers wearing Power Armour. Which is the case.

I am yet to read a story when an Astartes fighting an enemy wearing Power Armour says: "bolter rounds and close combat weapons do nothing... let´s take out our helmets and spit at our enemies!!"

To those who think marines benching 2500 lbs unarmored, the average marine is 8ft tall and the worlds best strongman, Andy Bolton is less than 6'3 if I recall. Andy can bench 700lbs raw. Someone who makes Andy look like a dwarf in physical size with the same proportional muscle mass, and genetics could easily put up 1500lbs raw.
This is ignoring the multiple hearts, and heavily enhanced muscles making them multitudes stronger.

And yet, every single source ever written shows the Sisters really close to marines. It seems meltas and faith are enough to get a decent chance of blowing up a marine before it has a chance to spit

This is ignoring the sillier stuff like marines shaping steel with thier hands (Thousand Sons) and dodging bullets point blank.

And ignoring the Sisters throwing beams of light out of their eyes because of the power their faith in the Emperor gives them. Silly stuff is silly.

 Troike wrote:
Yeah, not really the way the thread went. In fact I don't think that anybody claimed that Sisters were superior. Maybe in terms of faith, but that's all.

Not superior, but it is not a one-sided match at all.

Apart of all the sources provided, I still think the tabletop is the best way to compare them: Sisters are 12 points, Chaos Space Marine 13 points, Space Marines 14 points. A Genestealer is 14 points too and a Veteran is 7 points.

LightKing wrote:
so it seems like you are all agreeing that a sister is stronger then a marine..

but against a primarch=dead sister

At the risk of being stoned to death by fanboys, I am contesting this.

Sisters and Primarchs do not belong to the same age (30k vs 40k), but Sisters are humans.

And humans can defeat Primarchs. The setting is open, there is no such thing as a instant win for anyone.

Kor Phaeron was an old priest that never made it into an Astartes. He was no psyker. He was only an old man who believed in the gods. Yet he was really close to defeat Guilliman. And Luther defeated the Lion. And Temba wounded Horus. And Malcador was stupidly powerful. And Macharius went beyond anything a Primarch achieved.

Do not discard humans. They are quite important in the setting.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I am not sure if this is going anywhere. This seems more opinion-based than anything else. For every source that says 'SoB can equal Marines' there is something like 'Marines are far above what any human can reach' and things like that.

Just take what you prefer and go with it.

I still believe it is somehow important to make clear that the background of the game does not support the "marines are >>>> the rest" internet meme.

If you read some topics of the background forum, they usually go like this:
1- I think this because Space Marines are awesome.
2- Space Marines are awesome. This must be right.
3- I love Space Marines too! So awesome!
4- And I am pretty sure the fluff says so!
5- Space Marines are Awesome! The fluff says so!
All numbers - The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
A- Wait... there is this source that says otherwise.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! This author must be an idiot... let´s say his books are crappy!
C- And this other source says the same.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! The fluff is contradictory. Down with these authors!!
D- Could any of you provide a single source depicting the Sisters being easily defeated by Marines?
---- Silence ----
3- Well there is this source that says so.
All numbers - Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
D- No it doesn´t. Here is the quote. It says exactly the opposite.
---- Silence ----

Eventually, the topic reboot and it starts again.

There are two reasons why I think it is worthy to keep giving quotes and keeping these discussions alive:
1) It reduces the number of fanboys. Sure, some people will stand their ground no matter what, but other people will see the background with new eyes. If you let fanboys join forces for long, they reproduce, because new players think that they are right.
2) More sinister: I think people from GW keep an eye on this stuff. That explain how things that were just internet memes eventually made it into the "official" background. Stuff like "the Chaos Legions are disbanded", "there are only 4 Chaos Gods", "World Eaters are just dumb people that charges blindly", "Necrons are just Tomb Kings in space" or "Black Templars hated all psykers and they do without reason" eventually turned "official".

At this moment, you see a lot of people claiming that Sisters are little more than Veterans with power armour. For instance, the people behind Behavior Interactive are making a game called Eternal Crusade (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/537854.page) and they have already stated that Sisters are not going to make it into the game since the only use they would have is "being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons." (http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/). By the way, they also said something about Genestealers being << Marines, so it seems we have a "SM are awesome" case here.

If this keeps on, eventually we will lose another faction. Not the first time. At the end, Fanboys and Haters are not fun, they can, literally, destroy the game

 da001 wrote:

I still believe it is somehow important to make clear that the background of the game does not support the "marines are >>>> the rest" internet meme.

If you read some topics of the background forum, they usually go like this:
1- I think this because Space Marines are awesome.
2- Space Marines are awesome. This must be right.
3- I love Space Marines too! So awesome!
4- And I am pretty sure the fluff says so!
5- Space Marines are Awesome! The fluff says so!
All numbers - The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
A- Wait... there is this source that says otherwise.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! This author must be an idiot... let´s say his books are crappy!
C- And this other source says the same.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! The fluff is contradictory. Down with these authors!!
D- Could any of you provide a single source depicting the Sisters being easily defeated by Marines?
---- Silence ----
3- Well there is this source that says so.
All numbers - Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
D- No it doesn´t. Here is the quote. It says exactly the opposite.
---- Silence ----

Eventually, the topic reboot and it starts again.

Hey now, no need to insult them. When one has only a casual or one-sided view of the fluff, it's easy to percieve Marines as somewhat better than they really are, it's a common thing. Not their fault. But some people can be persuaded to see the setting in a less Marine-centric way, if others just post the relevant fluff.

 da001 wrote:
but other people will see the background with new eyes.

I think that this is a good reason too. A lot of the more obscure fluff is pretty cool as well as insightful, so it's good to share it.

 da001 wrote:
At this moment, you see a lot of people claiming that Sisters are little more than Veterans with power armour.

Yeah, this can be annoying. But it's easily debunked too, just point to the AoFs, Sheild of Faith and the life-long training.

 da001 wrote:
For instance, the people behind Behavior Interactive are making a game called Eternal Crusade (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/537854.page) and they have already stated that Sisters are not going to make it into the game since the only use they would have is "being killed by their own team because their pure blood is useful to defeat demons." (http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/06/14/interview-warhammer-40000-eternal-crusades-miguel-caron-shares-his-vision-for-a-next-gen-mmorpg/). By the way, they also said something about Genestealers being << Marines, so it seems we have a "SM are awesome" case here.

I have some good news for you, it seems. Miguel actually apologised for that statement on here after people quesitoned it. A few posts later and Lyanta emailed them all (or most) of the SoB studio fluff there is, at their request. So they obviously care about getting the Sisters right. A few months later, Creative Director (IIRC) David Ghozland tweeted that Sisters were on the list of factions to be added to the game. And in an interview, Miguel noted that Sisters were one of the top three most requested factions to be added.

Don't worry, I think that the Sisters will do okay in that particular venture. And a neat thing about Behaviour is that they're very open with the fans, so should there be any major concerns, they can be voiced.

 da001 wrote:
If this keeps on, eventually we will lose another faction. Not the first time. At the end, Fanboys and Haters are not fun, they can, literally, destroy the game

Psh, the Sisters have stuck around this long. They'll be fine. GW just made them another codex, didn't they? Now why do that if they're considering dropping the Sisters? It sold well too, so even if it was some sort of "test", well, test passed.

Worry not, strangely pious heretic, it shall take more than the Internet to defeat the Orders Militant!

Now if only GW would stop being afraid of money and release some plastic miniatures.

 da001 wrote:


If you read some topics of the background forum, they usually go like this:
1- I think this because Space Marines are awesome.
2- Space Marines are awesome. This must be right.
3- I love Space Marines too! So awesome!
4- And I am pretty sure the fluff says so!
5- Space Marines are Awesome! The fluff says so!
All numbers - The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
A- Wait... there is this source that says otherwise.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! This author must be an idiot... let´s say his books are crappy!
C- And this other source says the same.
All numbers - boooo! boooo! The fluff is contradictory. Down with these authors!!
D- Could any of you provide a single source depicting the Sisters being easily defeated by Marines?
---- Silence ----
3- Well there is this source that says so.
All numbers - Space Marines are awesome! The fluff says so! The fluff says so!
D- No it doesn´t. Here is the quote. It says exactly the opposite.
---- Silence ----

What's so wrong with a civilised and respectful discussion?

Troike wrote:Hey now, no need to insult them. When one has only a casual or one-sided view of the fluff, it's easy to percieve Marines as somewhat better than they really are, it's a common thing. Not their fault.

He's got a point, though - there are posters who either just do not read certain replies, or ignore the points they raise, resulting in a steadfast adherence to the opinion they went into the thread with rather than at least acceeding that, yes, there are multiple possibilities, and that it depends on where you look.

All of 40k fluff works like this, yet I often get the feeling that half the fandom does not "get" this.

To be fair, I was once one of these posters myself, just because I did not understand how the background works until I hunted down various quotes from the people actually working with this company, rather than blindly believing what I was told by other fans. The telephone game and internet hyperbole are two of the worst issues this community has to deal with.
I still feel every 40k website should have a sticky clarifying this. It'd make debates so much easier if everyone would at least start on the basis that "there is no wrong", or if there was a policy about fluff debates having to focus on specific sources in addition to the topic. Otherwise, all you end up with are one group of people screaming that 2+2=4 and the other opposing this by yelling that, no, 1+3=4.

Also, note how we've once again arrived at Marines being 8 feet tall? Excellent timing for this example.

Troike wrote:Psh, the Sisters have stuck around this long. They'll be fine. GW just made them another codex, didn't they? Now why do that if they're considering dropping the Sisters? It sold well too, so even if it was some sort of "test", well, test passed.
Worry not, strangely pious heretic, it shall take more than the Internet to defeat the Orders Militant!

As much as I had chided you for your boundless optimism in the past, at times it can indeed be refreshing.

And yeah, we really got lucky with how Miguel and his colleagues handle community input. This kind of communication is a rare thing indeed.

Sister = The strength of a human who's been working out augmented by some armour.
Space Marine = The strength of a heavyweight champion/bodybuilder with genetic agumentations, supported by his hench armour. There have been examples of space marines punching through people, I mean.. Their combat blades are the equivalent to conventional swords.. Also Space Marines are way tougher due to the Black Carapace, which would protect them from most of the hits a Sister could lay down in combat :3

At the end of the day, toss a coin, that's how it goes.

 Psienesis wrote:
At the end of the day, toss a coin, that's how it goes.

Even in the tabletop Space Marines have +1S and T..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Even in the tabletop Space Marines have +1S and T..

And it is significant, that's true. Which is why SoB sent to put down a rogue Chapter most certainly aren't going to try it 1-on-1 but more like 3-on-1 at a minimum. And if the sisters lose 2400 in putting down a thousand rogue marines it's a great victory, with many new martyrs to celebrate - and maybe a few will become Imperial Saints!

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Sister = The strength of a human who's been working out augmented by some armour.
Space Marine = The strength of a heavyweight champion/bodybuilder with genetic agumentations, supported by his hench armour. There have been examples of space marines punching through people, I mean.. Their combat blades are the equivalent to conventional swords.. Also Space Marines are way tougher due to the Black Carapace, which would protect them from most of the hits a Sister could lay down in combat :3

Well except the delicious penetration of a bolter shot that then exploded from within, the furious melta burning awa all in its path, and I can still ruin you with some good ol' roastin!

EDIT: Also, HUZZAH! Someday the Sisters shall return cheaper than before and in glorious metal! Death to all xenos and heretics!

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
At the end of the day, toss a coin, that's how it goes.

Even in the tabletop Space Marines have +1S and T..

Melta gives not a single feth for your S and your T. It melts tanks.

And Sisters come *loaded* with Melta.

 Lynata wrote:
He's got a point, though - there are posters who either just do not read certain replies, or ignore the points they raise, resulting in a steadfast adherence to the opinion they went into the thread with rather than at least acceeding that, yes, there are multiple possibilities, and that it depends on where you look.

All of 40k fluff works like this, yet I often get the feeling that half the fandom does not "get" this.

Sure, not everyone is going to be so receptive. I guess all I'm trying to say is that don't assume the worst in those who disagree, it can often be an honest mistake caused by never having seen more obscure fluff before.

Spetulhu wrote:
Which is why SoB sent to put down a rogue Chapter most certainly aren't going to try it 1-on-1 but more like 3-on-1 at a minimum.

Not necessarily. Remember the Strikeforce article that was posted earlier in the thread? It talked about how Sisters often go after rogue Chapters using a hard, precision strike against its leadership. So the Sisters don't necessarily have to just drown the Chapter in bodies until it's beaten, they can also use precision strikes to weaken the Chapter rather than just facing them head-on.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Sister = The strength of a human who's been working out augmented by some armour.

That's not all they are, they also have Acts of Faith and their Shield of Faith. So, they can boost themselves to superhuman feats too.

Sisters have been shown to be capable of punching Space Marines with more strength than Space Marines can manage

Troike wrote:Not necessarily. Remember the Strikeforce article that was posted earlier in the thread? It talked about how Sisters often go after rogue Chapters using a hard, precision strike against its leadership. So the Sisters don't necessarily have to just drown the Chapter in bodies until its beaten, they can also use precision strikes to weaken the Chapter rather than just facing them head-on.

Even more, that is in fact the only method of attack they have ever been shown to use in core GW publications - once in the CJ strikeforce article, and once in the Index Astartes article on Renegade Marines.

Drowning the enemy in bodies is what you have the Guard for - the organisation that even the Space Marines go to get help from "if an enemy is too numerous or too well entrenched".

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters have been shown to be capable of punching Space Marines with more strength than Space Marines can manage

Where?

Also, I am not sure if I like the tone in this thread currently. It is starting to feel like 'My army kicks the butt of your army.' Not pointing at any specific side of the argument.

Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters have been shown to be capable of punching Space Marines with more strength than Space Marines can manage

Where?

Also, I am not sure if I like the tone in this thread currently. It is starting to feel like 'My army kicks the butt of your army.' Not pointing at any specific side of the argument.

That is how all of these threads go.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

Outdated rules are outdated.

Terminator armour used to be a 3+ on 2D6. That does not mean that Terminator Armour is six times as good at deflecting damage as Power Armour is.

 Psienesis wrote:
That is how all of these threads go.

Honestly, this one started out that way from the freaking TITLE.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That is how all of these threads go.

Honestly, this one started out that way from the freaking TITLE.

No, it said 'so Sister of Battle = Space Marine', not 'so Sister of Battle > Space Marine'.

I can see no 'My army > your army' in the thread title.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

Outdated rules are outdated.

Terminator armour used to be a 3+ on 2D6. That does not mean that Terminator Armour is six times as good at deflecting damage as Power Armour is.

This is not an argument of table-top rules.

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters could hit in melee with strength five in third edition, without the addition of equipment. Marines, without the assistance of equipment, were and still are stuck at strength 4.

Outdated rules are outdated.

Terminator armour used to be a 3+ on 2D6. That does not mean that Terminator Armour is six times as good at deflecting damage as Power Armour is.

This is not an argument of table-top rules.

Indeed. I was pointing out that using tabletop rules as a reference point is fallacy.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Outdated rules are outdated.

They're also quite capable of it in the RPGs as well, though I am loathe to quote from Blood of Martyrs. And there's plenty of other examples of Sisters being capable of outshining Space Marines in bursts of glory, as well. It's no surprise really, considering that "Marines and Sisters are equals on the field of combat" is Games Workshop's opinion, stated repeatedly and consistently, no matter how much you object to it.

Insert line about a pathological need to prove your plastic soldiers are better than the other person's plastic soldiers here.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Outdated rules are outdated.

They're also quite capable of it in the RPGs as well, though I am loathe to quote from Blood of Martyrs. And there's plenty of other examples of Sisters being capable of outshining Space Marines in bursts of glory, as well. It's no surprise really, considering that "Marines and Sisters are equals on the field of combat" is Games Workshop's opinion, stated repeatedly and consistently, no matter how much you object to it.

Insert line about a pathological need to prove your plastic soldiers are better than the other person's plastic soldiers here.

Pot, meet kettle.

I can open Ye Big Bag o' Quotes and shower you in examples of GW stating that Marines are superior.

5th ed SM codex wrote:The Space Marines are the foremost defenders of the Imperium.

5th ed rulebook wrote:The Adeptus Astartes are the most powerful of all human warriors.

I have TONS of more quotes like this, these are just ones I picked out in a pinch. How many do you want me to give you?

My point is not that I am trying to convince you 'Marines > Sisters'. That would be pointless. We have different views of the setting, both supported by the fluff at least to some degree. Neither of us are necessarily right or wrong.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Pot, meet kettle.

All I've done, aside from assert that sisters are equal to marines (which is GW's official position), is provide counter-points to marinespankery.

As for your so-called quotes, please, every codex says something like that, those quotes are as worthless as they are pointless. They don't explicitly mention or compare Sisters to Space Marines regardless*.




*(also, Space MArines aren't human)

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Pot, meet kettle.

All I've done, aside from assert that sisters are equal to marines (which is GW's official position), is provide counter-points to marinespankery.

As for your so-called quotes, please, every codex says something like that, those quotes are as worthless as they are pointless.

Rulebook, not codex.

Besides, you used arguments from the SoB codex as well.

Again, pot, meet kettle. And GWs official position? Really? When they have outright stated there is no true canon?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Again, pot, meet kettle.

You have nooooo idea what this means, apparently.

And you're quoting Lynata on me. I don't have the same opinions as Lynata.

 da001 wrote:

At the risk of being stoned to death by fanboys, I am contesting this.

Fanboys? Try reasonably people.

Sisters and Primarchs do not belong to the same age (30k vs 40k), but Sisters are humans.

And humans can defeat Primarchs. The setting is open, there is no such thing as a instant win for anyone.

When you can rip dozens of Marines to pieces unarmed, it may as well be.

Kor Phaeron was an old priest that never made it into an Astartes. He was no psyker. He was only an old man who believed in the gods. Yet he was really close to defeat Guilliman.

So have you actually read the fight? Or anything about Kor Phaeron?

Kor Phaeron was still genetically enhanced beyond any Sister of Battle.

And he wasn't a psyker? He was explicitly stated to be the most powerful adept/psyker in the Word Bearers short of post-Isvtaan V Lorgar. Even if that was only the result of sorcery, he still is probably the single most powerful combatant in 30k that isn't a Primarch.

And Luther defeated the Lion.

Because Chaos amplified him up to a Primarch's level.

And Temba wounded Horus.

Read above.

And Malcador was stupidly powerful.

More-so than even the Living Saints. He was the third mightiest psyker in the Imperium at the time.

And Macharius went beyond anything a Primarch achieved.

A. I don't think this is true.

B. Prowess as a commander =/= prowess as a combatant.