Got an email with some pictures of my Cypher, Didn't like the cloak on the first go, asked them to change it, very happy with it now.

Before changes:


Now:

Thats actually a great looking mini. Did you convert that?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Thats actually a great looking mini. Did you convert that?

Yep

Well props to you for the conversion work

Couldn't you just upload the pictures to the gallery? It's hard to see any details with images of this size... Does look good though so far.
Is he "done"?

I agree that the pictures need to be better to see the details.

From the looks of it, the cloak was just given a flat coat of light beige. The shadowing doesn't look consistent and looks like it's the natural light making the tone changes.

The conversion is very good though.

 RivenSkull wrote:
I agree that the pictures need to be better to see the details.

From the looks of it, the cloak was just given a flat coat of light beige. The shadowing doesn't look consistent and looks like it's the natural light making the tone changes.

The conversion is very good though.

I requested them to change it to flat white

Well it looks like they are trying there hardest. Seriously though, how hard is it to get one large, HR, well lit image? White background, good light and a smart phone. Click, send.

Bad pictures from a painting studio like this feels evasive, you should be wondering what they are trying to hide from you.

That one looked pretty cool. Well done on the conversion OP.

Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

As this is relevant to this thread more so than the other BTP thread.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:


Well you seem to believe anything thats read in videos without proof, so I was assuming that you would yeah, my bad!

So you should also post screenshots (with names blacked out of course) of your interactions with BTP. How are we to believe your posts in quotes of what you claim to be your interactions with BTP? You could be posting anything.

The sword cuts both ways

I suppose that you would be open to showing your emails to prove that you have in fact not informed BTP about this thread. How are we to believe your posts?

 RivenSkull wrote:
As this is relevant to this thread more so than the other BTP thread.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:


Well you seem to believe anything thats read in videos without proof, so I was assuming that you would yeah, my bad!

So you should also post screenshots (with names blacked out of course) of your interactions with BTP. How are we to believe your posts in quotes of what you claim to be your interactions with BTP? You could be posting anything.

The sword cuts both ways

I suppose that you would be open to showing your emails to prove that you have in fact not informed BTP about this thread. How are we to believe your posts?

The majority of people posting here already believes they know about it anyways, so what does it matter lol, and I gladly invite you to pm me your skype name, I will video share my emails folder with you and you can see every email you want


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 motyak wrote:
We're going to go to Dakka Discussions with this. We can review it when we get some images of actual painting and modelling as to whether it still belongs there or here.

And to the thread in general, make sure you keep this civil. Any disagreements with users from other threads that are bought into this one are going to break several rules of the site, so don't do it

oh and reported

 M0ff3l wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
As this is relevant to this thread more so than the other BTP thread.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:


Well you seem to believe anything thats read in videos without proof, so I was assuming that you would yeah, my bad!

So you should also post screenshots (with names blacked out of course) of your interactions with BTP. How are we to believe your posts in quotes of what you claim to be your interactions with BTP? You could be posting anything.

The sword cuts both ways

I suppose that you would be open to showing your emails to prove that you have in fact not informed BTP about this thread. How are we to believe your posts?

The majority of people posting here already believes they know about it anyways, so what does it matter lol, and I gladly invite you to pm me your skype name, I will video share my emails folder with you and you can see every email you want


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 motyak wrote:
We're going to go to Dakka Discussions with this. We can review it when we get some images of actual painting and modelling as to whether it still belongs there or here.

And to the thread in general, make sure you keep this civil. Any disagreements with users from other threads that are bought into this one are going to break several rules of the site, so don't do it

oh and reported

Implying that you are even trustworthy to show the right files

 M0ff3l wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
As this is relevant to this thread more so than the other BTP thread.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:


Well you seem to believe anything thats read in videos without proof, so I was assuming that you would yeah, my bad!

So you should also post screenshots (with names blacked out of course) of your interactions with BTP. How are we to believe your posts in quotes of what you claim to be your interactions with BTP? You could be posting anything.

The sword cuts both ways

I suppose that you would be open to showing your emails to prove that you have in fact not informed BTP about this thread. How are we to believe your posts?

The majority of people posting here already believes they know about it anyways, so what does it matter lol, and I gladly invite you to pm me your skype name, I will video share my emails folder with you and you can see every email you want

I'm not attacking you. But what I am doing is levying the same criticisms upon you that you have brought on other people. Do you feel I am unfair with those criticisms?

And I will be staying here and in the open. I would prefer to not take this off site.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

I can do a white cloak with depth in it and I don't even consider myself an excellent painter, let alone work for one of the largest painting services in the industry. Paint white, wash with nuln oil or agrax, paint very thin layers of white paint over it, drybrush white to pick out and highlight the raised portions. Not only is it not impossible, it's not even that difficult even for a mediocre painter.

 Toofast wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

I can do a white cloak with depth in it and I don't even consider myself an excellent painter, let alone work for one of the largest painting services in the industry. Paint white, wash with nuln oil or agrax, paint very thin layers of white paint over it, drybrush white to pick out and highlight the raised portions. Not only is it not impossible, it's not even that difficult even for a mediocre painter.

Not the same, I told him paint the whole cloak white. Just white, when he showed me this I said yes this is what I want.

 Toofast wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

I can do a white cloak with depth in it and I don't even consider myself an excellent painter, let alone work for one of the largest painting services in the industry. Paint white, wash with nuln oil or agrax, paint very thin layers of white paint over it, drybrush white to pick out and highlight the raised portions. Not only is it not impossible, it's not even that difficult even for a mediocre painter.

Was just going to say that. Another one is to used very watered down fenrisian grey as a wash.

I'm not debating that that's what you wanted. I was simply refuting the statement that no commission painting service could do a white cape with depth. Instead of calling it impossible, you could've just said "I don't want depth/shading, I just wanted pure white".

 Toofast wrote:
I'm not debating that that's what you wanted. I was simply refuting the statement that no commission painting service could do a white cape with depth. Instead of calling it impossible, you could've just said "I don't want depth/shading, I just wanted pure white".

You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

To be fair, he may actually discourage people from using BTP when he gets the models and uses them. With the paint jobs so far, and the solid white cloak, saying they were a commission job would probably turn people off to using BTP.

Still waiting for an answer to my question.

I actually think that's a pretty good looking model. I could have painted that plague marine a lot better than what is shown in the first picture. I cannot say the same about the Cypher model.

 squall018 wrote:
I actually think that's a pretty good looking model. I could have painted that plague marine a lot better than what is shown in the first picture. I cannot say the same about the Cypher model.

The Cypher model is an impressive conversion. But with the poor photo quality and the solid white cloak, it doesn't seem like the paint job is up to snuff.

 M0ff3l wrote:
So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

So you're honestly telling me that you'd rather have your models painted to the lowest possible standard? You would rather have a literal plain white cloak with no shading at all, instead of a cloak that looks like a real white cloak with subtle shading and color variation? I suppose you're entitled to badly painted models if that's what you want, but it sounds like this is really just a case of your bizarre need to defend BTP.

I'm also not sure how subtle, realistic shading is less preferable than just plain white, but it's his money.

Assuming that BTP is reading this and they want to show the community they're A game... is that it? Really?

Also, OP why would you request a flat white cloak? Do you have any evidnece that you did indeed request that?

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

i run my own commission service, and i can paint white cloaks with depth just fine...
please try not to insult those of us who actually take pride in our work, make every effort to perfect our craft, and surpass our customers' expectations every time...

i actually think that the flat white you asked for looks better than their first attempt...
i don't think you have bad taste...
i think you made the right call...

getting defensive about BTP's quality is not necessary...
it's not as if you painted it yourself, pouring your heart and soul into the paintjob...
just say you like it, and leave it at that...
saying you don't think any of us who paint on commission can paint white cloaks with depth is just insulting...

in my opinion, the job of a commission service is to make the difficult colors look easy...

cheers
jah

It's impossible to do white cloaks with good depth and shading? Maybe someone had better inform the painters who win Golden Daemons.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

are you honestly telling me that you would have been unhappy if they have succeeded in achieving a nice subtle grey shade in the folds the first time around???

the fact that you had to ask for a correction because you didn't like the look of the first attempt is understandable...
the fact that the painter attempted to show off his skills on the first try, and failed in your own eyes, is a different story from the flat white being fine because you requested it...
"the customer gets what the customer wants" is the mantra of the commission service...
that doesn't change the fact that the painter's original work was not to your satisfaction...
this just illustrates why WIP shots are so important, so problems can be identified, and changes made...
now the problem is solved, but you can't blame people for wondering why you would be happy with the simplest solution, when you are paying good money for a paintjob...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

i run my own commission service, and i can paint white cloaks with depth just fine...
please try not to insult those of us who actually take pride in our work, make every effort to perfect our craft, and surpass our customers' expectations every time...

i actually think that the flat white you asked for looks better than their first attempt...
i don't think you have bad taste...
i think you made the right call...

getting defensive about BTP's quality is not necessary...
it's not as if you painted it yourself, pouring your heart and soul into the paintjob...
just say you like it, and leave it at that...
saying you don't think any of us who paint on commission can paint white cloaks with depth is just insulting...

in my opinion, the job of a commission service is to make the difficult colors look easy...

cheers
jah

Those parts right there make me love commission painters, When I see a model that makes my jaw drop, that makes my day.

Well the OP is just white knighting BTP and will say or do anything to make it look like that it isen't BTP's fault and that BTP is awesome. This review is as neutral as Rick Santorum would be on a gay law..

In other words this thread serves no purpose other then trying to mislead and throw dirt on Ten for lifting to the light how little BTP cares about their customers.

Let's keep in mind that BTP is watching the community, after they failed to force Ten to remove his review they instead came up with this farse in an attempt to keep fooling the community.

I'm not sure what the big deal is. I often use plain white on figures, without any shading. It works fine.


Of course, I call it 'primer' when I do it.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Good conversion, terrible pictures. Even with the new color change there is absolutely no depth to the cape and it takes away from it.

As I said 3 posts above yours, I requested him to do just a flat white cloak.. I dont think any commission service on the world can do a plain white cloak with depth etc in it. So if you think its ugly, then you can tell me I dont have taste, but you cant blame it on the artist.

I'm not as restrained as Joshua.

With this post you've lost any and all credibility with me, I was putting a certain acceptance of BTPs quality down to your taste, but now you're showing a wilful ignorance that I can't abide.

Good luck with the rest of the job, and congratulations to BTP on finding a client willing to pay for their substandard work.

Lets see the finished product in better quality pics before the lynch mob gets all worked up, shall we?

That said, I don't think Moff should take the harsh criticism of btp as personal as you're doing. Most of us here really appreciate you showing this process to the "world" (or at least us on Dakka )

Hardly. I, in common with every other reputable commission painter spend a great deal of time and effort in not only learning painting techniques, but also taking photos, posting forum showcases, facebook pages, blogs etc. etc.
To be confronted by someone who essentially has their fingers in their ears, singing 'la la la I'm not listening' to that information is exasperating, especially when they're purporting themselves as someone trying to provide a balanced viewpoint to something.

I get where you are comming from, and I hold no love for BTP - what little I had they lost with Tenebres case - but I would just like to see the finished product in this "best case scenario" so we can all judge with our wallets. But at the rate people are raging at Moff he will have abandoned ship before completion like he threatened to do (what he was expecting when he started this thread I'm really not sure of though...)

winterdyne-you should know that there are people out there that don't have sophisticated tastes. They would actually prefer some oil painting done by an "artist" in twenty minutes over a Gaugin or Picasso. That their tastes do not match your standards does not make their selection invalid as "art". Moff is entitled to his enjoyment of how his models are painted. If you don't think his standards are high enough then the problem is not with his standards but rather your intolerance of some "low brow" art lover. As I said some people like their figures "simple" without the need for some techniques that you feel are esential for your enjoyment. You may or may not agree with his taste but to fault him and call him a liar, as others have done, in that he likes the figure "as is" is not something a person who works in the art field should do.

The backlash is coming from the other thread where he implies that that thread's OP might be lying because he hasn't posted his correspondence with BTP. I think it's entirely justified to ask if such correspondence really happened in this case: that he actually requested for it to be flat white and not just trying to justify shoddy work.

 heartserenade wrote:
The backlash is coming from the other thread where he implies that that thread's OP might be lying because he hasn't posted his correspondence with BTP. I think it's entirely justified to ask if such correspondence really happened in this case: that he actually requested for it to be flat white and not just trying to justify shoddy work.

From the other thread where I asked for evidence once and when it was delivered never brought it up again.

This was a recent post of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oIVA9DKIJM

According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...

People are saying that I posted this to gloat and that "why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." means I am doubting him asking for it, which I am not. He showed me the emails where BTP said they would do that, and they didnt. That is fact. They think they see the intent of my post, but my intent was just expressing how baffled I am that BTP did not do it for a client who asked for it but now is doing it for clients who dont.

But because the majority of that thread read what other people say I say isntead of reading my actual post, it has now become "Moffel is calling Tenebre a liar again and is defending BTP".

Clearly even you dont know the whole story, as Tenebre HAS posted the part of his correspondence with BTP, which satisfied my ask of proof. However people seem to just ignore that and call me out on calling him a liar anyways. Its like you all just see what you want to see.


@ the general topic, that Cypher is my favorite miniature I have ever made, I really wanted him to be exactly how I wanted. That was the most important part of the entire commission. For 36,50$ they did an amazing job in my opinion. Also here is that email:

Hey Name!

He looks cool, however I'm not really a fan of the brown on the loin cloth and cape. If possible could you change it to just all white? The teeth are also a little too similar to the color of his face It seems like, and there is red spot on his cheek which makes it look like hes blushing . Also I see some primer showing on the pipes above his belt, the guns, the wrist holding the plasma pistol and a little on his right knee. Could you please adress these issues and send me some more pictures (also some more angles please, I cant really see the sides of the model and the top of his hood well from these pictures).

Thanks for keeping me updated!
-Name

and for people saying quotes is not proof,

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
winterdyne-you should know that there are people out there that don't have sophisticated tastes. They would actually prefer some oil painting done by an "artist" in twenty minutes over a Gaugin or Picasso. That their tastes do not match your standards does not make their selection invalid as "art". Moff is entitled to his enjoyment of how his models are painted. If you don't think his standards are high enough then the problem is not with his standards but rather your intolerance of some "low brow" art lover. As I said some people like their figures "simple" without the need for some techniques that you feel are esential for your enjoyment. You may or may not agree with his taste but to fault him and call him a liar, as others have done, in that he likes the figure "as is" is not something a person who works in the art field should do.

I don't really care about his taste. But stating he doesn't believe any commission studio could paint a plain white cloak with depth / shading (easy) indicates to me exactly where he's trying to take this thread. I didn't want to believe it, but honestly, if someone says they enjoy burning tenners, I'm gonna let them.

However, I will point out that it's stupid, and other people probably shouldn't follow suit.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
I'm not debating that that's what you wanted. I was simply refuting the statement that no commission painting service could do a white cape with depth. Instead of calling it impossible, you could've just said "I don't want depth/shading, I just wanted pure white".

You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

This has been adressed before winterdyne, and as you can see I admitted saying no commission service could was the wrong wording.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands.

Of course they should, because adding subtle shading and depth to even "pure" colors is part of being a good painter. If the best they can do is literally plain white with no shading at all then they shouldn't be charging money for it.

So youre saying commission painters have to show off their skills even if its not what the client wants?

But you did't ask for a flat unshaded white, you asked for "just white". Would you have been upset if he'd added some depth to it?

It is his money, if he is happy with it, let him be happy with it.

It seems when he is not happy, he informs Blue Table and so far they have been responsive to him.

This is probably not the typical BTP experience due to how public this project is (and how public Ten's project is) but in the end, as long as OP is happy he got his money's worth, good for him.

There are plenty of pics being shared, and we know what he paid. We can all judge if we would have been happy with the service for the price.

Absolutely. No-one is going to change M0ff3l's mind if he's decided that he's happy.

All we can do is enjoy this level of transparency and make our own decisions about BTPs service and quality.

That a professional painter thought that shading bone-white with a highly saturated brown was a brilliant idea is ridiculous, but I think we are overlooking that M0ff3l had to point out and ask for correction of visible primer on a Level 5 mini.

It would seem the OP's objective of providing an unbiased, step-by-step insight into the workings of dealing with BTP has been of invaluable profit to the wargaming community (whether they achieved that objective or not).

The lesson to be learned is:
If you ask for crap, pay for crap and expect crap from a crap company then you will be nothing but delighted when you receive crap. (all subjective, of course)

Unfortunately this isn't much help when you pay more than good money, expecting good results from a reputedly good company and receive a steaming pile of not good in return, as happened in the case that kicked this all off.
If M0ff3l is happy with their results, then that is successful business for them and BTP. And it is wonderful evidence for the rest of us to decided who we would and who we would NOT like to get involved with. Thank you for your candidness in this regard M0ff3l.

(edit to include Blue Table Painting and Miniature Painting to the thread. Wouldn't want it to get missed in a google search)

Yeah M0ff3l, we all appreciate you for starting this thread and keeping this open. I am glad you are happy with what you are getting and sharing all these insights into working with Blue Table Painting.

There was a lot of confusion about working with miniature painting services before, but this has done a lot to clear up the confusion. I am glad you have proven that all anyone needs to do is communicate clearly for Blue Table Painting to do their best work. This clears up all the confusion started by that tenebre thread and makes it clear he never spoke with them.

Next time I am looking for a level 3 paint job for some miniatures I will be sure to think of Blue Table Painting. So thank you M0ff3l you are doing the entire community a service and proving a point.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah M0ff3l, we all appreciate you for starting this thread and keeping this open. I am glad you are happy with what you are getting and sharing all these insights into working with Blue Table Painting.

There was a lot of confusion about working with miniature painting services before, but this has done a lot to clear up the confusion. I am glad you have proven that all anyone needs to do is communicate clearly for Blue Table Painting to do their best work. This clears up all the confusion started by that tenebre thread and makes it clear he never spoke with them.

Next time I am looking for a level 3 paint job for some miniatures I will be sure to think of Blue Table Painting. So thank you M0ff3l you are doing the entire community a service and proving a point.

Was going to say what? until I remembered your other post on tenbre's thread

@techsoldaten: powerful sarcasm
i can almost taste it...

 plastictrees wrote:

That a professional painter thought that shading bone-white with a highly saturated brown was a brilliant idea is ridiculous, but I think we are overlooking that M0ff3l had to point out and ask for correction of visible primer on a Level 5 mini.

i had to point out the same thing last night, as M0ff3l was completely glazing over the fact that he asked for the simplest solution to correct a poor attempt at painting the cloak on the first try...
i am not going to assume what he thinks, but it looks to me like he asked for a foolproof solution here because he doesn't trust the company to do a decent job of shading the cloak, since the muffed it the first time around...

@M0ff3l: nice of you to completely ignore my posts from last night, even though i tried really hard not to be judgemental of you or your attitude...
you retract your statement about us quality painters being unable to do a good job, but don't one apologize for insulting us...
bedankt, jonge...
je bent een echte geweldige vent...

cheers
jah

Is there a picture of this cloak? I looked through the last few pages and didn't see it.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Is there a picture of this cloak? I looked through the last few pages and didn't see it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/622435.page#7423782

I'd be so annoyed with the picture quality BTP were coming up with for WIP shots. I just spent an hour or two spraying Tyranids blue in poor light, and was sure I covered them all before I got them under my painting lights and saw just how much I missed.

They have terribly low standards for a professional service.

IMO, they made no attempt to colour match the Plague Marines with the picture provided to them. They've primed white, washed it in Duck Egg Green or similar and called it a Plague Marine.

The fact that their professional pride allowed them to send you a picture of that cloak in the first place is shocking. They've got no standards, no respect for customers and with any luck they'll go out of business.

Where is the new shot of the plague marines? I seem to have missed this.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Where is the new shot of the plague marines? I seem to have missed this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270/622435.page#7419416

 Eldarain wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Is there a picture of this cloak? I looked through the last few pages and didn't see it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300/622435.page#7423782

Thanks! I didn't like the first cloak either. The all white repaint could be vastly improved by a simple subtle brownish-grey glaze manually painted into the recesses. Just something to help trick the eyes a bit. The dark brown shading was way too much and the all white with no shading is just too little.

In the end though, I think mof will be happy with what he gets. I wouldn't be happy with it, but it's not my army.

whoops wrong quote

 Casey's Law wrote:
That looks pretty poor to my eye but the photographs are horrendously unprofessional so it's hard to actually see anything worth seeing. I'm glad you are happy with it though even if I wouldn't be. Wouldn't be very nice if you were disappointed after paying all that money.

There's way too much flash to see the figures properly there. What has level 3 cost him per figure for this?

 jah-joshua wrote:
@techsoldaten: powerful sarcasm
i can almost taste it...

 plastictrees wrote:

That a professional painter thought that shading bone-white with a highly saturated brown was a brilliant idea is ridiculous, but I think we are overlooking that M0ff3l had to point out and ask for correction of visible primer on a Level 5 mini.

i had to point out the same thing last night, as M0ff3l was completely glazing over the fact that he asked for the simplest solution to correct a poor attempt at painting the cloak on the first try...
i am not going to assume what he thinks, but it looks to me like he asked for a foolproof solution here because he doesn't trust the company to do a decent job of shading the cloak, since the muffed it the first time around...

@M0ff3l: nice of you to completely ignore my posts from last night, even though i tried really hard not to be judgemental of you or your attitude...
you retract your statement about us quality painters being unable to do a good job, but don't one apologize for insulting us...
bedankt, jonge...
je bent een echte geweldige vent...

cheers
jah

You stated that I didnt pour my heart and soul into that mini, which is not true. I spend really long converting it, and send it to a commission service because I lack the painting skills to do it justice. So ofcourse I will be defensive about it. And yes, I asked for flat white, because my original request says: White with Tan Highlights... If those brown stains are what they call "highlights" then flat white is the way to go. If you feel so insulted by my poor choice of words, well then my apologies to you. However I feel like demanding an apology from me on this thread is very, very controversial as no one who insulted me apologized on here (cincererly atleast).

Also your post was made AFTER I said: "You are right, I should have phrased it, no commission painting service should paint depth into a cloak when the client requested just pure white. Anyways my point that this should not be faulted towards BTP but towards me still stands."

M0ff3l, fair enough, man...
i was talking about the paintjob, not the conversion...
this is a thread about a "professional" painting service's work...
had you made a thread about your own work, the comments would be very different all around...
the paintjob, and the painter's poor execution on the first attempt, has nothing to do with your conversions, which have been praised in this thread...

yes, i was insulted by your poor choice of words, and now you go and do it again...
i never demanded an apology...
i just pointed out that you retracted your statement without an apology...
that's a fact, not a demand...
if that makes me controversial, that's fine...
i stand by my words...

you glaze over the fact that the pure white was in response to the painter doing a poor job the first time around, yet defend the company by acting like you asked for flat white from the start...
i'm just pointing out the facts, and your quote of what you asked for above proves that you asked for something other than flat white originally...
i'm not here to fight with you, just pointing out the waffling in your story...
i tried to do it in the most non-judgemental way possible...

Blue Table Painting's work speaks for itself, so like Winterdyne, i'm over it...
this is a waste of time and effort...

best of luck to you...

cheers
jah

All the information is in the thread, my original request for white + tan highlights, their first attempt at that and me asking them to change it to white. If people hate on the white instead of the "tan highlights" then I feel like that is not fair, as I requested that white. If the posts had been about how ugly the cloak was on the first try, I wouldnt have defended BTP. But if they are about the white with no shading, thats what I requested, so its not really fair.

The reason for the change is that I didnt trust them with "highlights", so better leave it nice and white. That is indeed a very negative thing, and shouldnt happen when dealing with a proffessional studio.

How does white with tan highlights work, anyway? The tan is a darker color and makes more sense as a shade, white should be the highlight color.

 M0ff3l wrote:
The reason for the change is that I didnt trust them with "highlights", so better leave it nice and white. That is indeed a very negative thing, and shouldnt happen when dealing with a proffessional studio.

And you could have saved yourself a lot of arguing if you'd presented it this way at first, instead of defending BTP for "giving you exactly what you want". BTP didn't give you what you want, they gave you a low-quality substitute because you gave up on any hope of getting it done right. This is the point where I'd be demanding a refund, not continuing to pay them for models that they clearly aren't capable of finishing to the promised (and paid for!) standard.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
That looks pretty poor to my eye but the photographs are horrendously unprofessional so it's hard to actually see anything worth seeing. I'm glad you are happy with it though even if I wouldn't be. Wouldn't be very nice if you were disappointed after paying all that money.

There's way too much flash to see the figures properly there. What has level 3 cost him per figure for this?

This has still not been addressed and is, as far as I'm concerned, the only point of interest until it's rectified. These pictures are so bad that there really is no clear idea of what the miniatures look like. As someone else said, try painting even a simple coat of paint in a bad light and then see how it looks under the right lighting. These miniatures could easily be better or worse than I can currently tell but we won't know until we have pictures that show them realistically. All these photographs show is that they have begun to paint your miniatures in vaguely similar colours to those requested.

ya know what makes a awesome painting service ? one you cant trust too do highlights on models and then charge me the same/more as a service that can seems legit

It is one of the things I always hear is never paint anything a pure Black or White. It does not look quite right. With whites a cream brown color for a warm white and light blue grey for cold whites. Once the base is down then the highlighting and shading can be done.

I hope you got some money back from Blue Table Painting when hey couldn't paint the cloak properly and you had to compromise on quality.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah M0ff3l, we all appreciate you for starting this thread and keeping this open. I am glad you are happy with what you are getting and sharing all these insights into working with Blue Table Painting.

There was a lot of confusion about working with miniature painting services before, but this has done a lot to clear up the confusion. I am glad you have proven that all anyone needs to do is communicate clearly for Blue Table Painting to do their best work. This clears up all the confusion started by that tenebre thread and makes it clear he never spoke with them.

Next time I am looking for a level 3 paint job for some miniatures I will be sure to think of Blue Table Painting. So thank you M0ff3l you are doing the entire community a service and proving a point.

You are Joking right?

 zlayer77 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah M0ff3l, we all appreciate you for starting this thread and keeping this open. I am glad you are happy with what you are getting and sharing all these insights into working with Blue Table Painting.

There was a lot of confusion about working with miniature painting services before, but this has done a lot to clear up the confusion. I am glad you have proven that all anyone needs to do is communicate clearly for Blue Table Painting to do their best work. This clears up all the confusion started by that tenebre thread and makes it clear he never spoke with them.

Next time I am looking for a level 3 paint job for some miniatures I will be sure to think of Blue Table Painting. So thank you M0ff3l you are doing the entire community a service and proving a point.

You are Joking right?

Yes he is

 M0ff3l wrote:
All the information is in the thread, my original request for white + tan highlights, their first attempt at that and me asking them to change it to white. If people hate on the white instead of the "tan highlights" then I feel like that is not fair, as I requested that white. If the posts had been about how ugly the cloak was on the first try, I wouldnt have defended BTP. But if they are about the white with no shading, thats what I requested, so its not really fair.

The reason for the change is that I didnt trust them with "highlights", so better leave it nice and white. That is indeed a very negative thing, and shouldnt happen when dealing with a proffessional studio.

The thing is that there are great products on the market these days that make shading "easy"... Winsor&newton have thiners/and retarders for acrylics, same goes for commpanies like Vallejo.. I use alot of proffesional products that have been around for decades... What they do is make the Acrylics dry longer and become transperent... The only thing you then need to do is mix up about 5 diffrent shades of white going from darker to lighter... It will take alot longer then using washes and inks yes.. But not using them gives you alot more control over what you are doing... Painting shadows instead of using a wash is far superior when it comes to what your mini will look like when you are done.. And key Factor is you PAINT should be THIN and transperent and you work it up in layers going from dark to light...you can do it Light to dark also... but most people find it easier to work from dark to light... As long as you DO not use thick paint the endresult will look really good..
Washes and Inks are the amatures "quick fix", Most proffesional painters "that WIN Slayer Swords etc" do not use them... There are alot of them that sell painting DVDS etc.. There is one russian girl that is just insanly good..

Now Painting is an artform, and some people have Natural skills that make them alot better then the avrage person.. BUT you can train yourself to a good standard if you have recived propper training. Or have someone instruct you in how light hits and the tricks that can be used when painting miniatures.. BTP, looks to have no Natural skill or proffesional training.. So NO they cant pull off highlights on whites... But it is not that hard and I can PM you the exact products to use and how to use them, if you want to fix that White cloak when you get that miniature back in your hands.. It is not that hard to be honest...

Tell you what I can even paint a white Cloak with highlights and show you step by step what colors I am using and how much I deluted the paint etc.. And you can fix that miniatures cloak yourself... It will take you a few hours yes.. But it might be worth it?

 RivenSkull wrote:
I hope you got some money back from Blue Table Painting when hey couldn't paint the cloak properly and you had to compromise on quality.

Leave M0ff3l alone.

He hired Blue Table Painting as a miniature painting service, he is happy with the job they are doing, and that is the only thing that matters. He does not need to be harassed by people who hire painting services by do not communicate with them, or professional painters who think they could do a better job. He is performing a valuable service by demonstrating the correct way to engage in the communications process with Blue Table Painting and the outstanding customer service the miniature painting service delivers. This thread has made it clear the controversy with tenebre is manufactured and probably exaggerated, just like M0ff3l suggested when he told (and did not get) tenebre to post something to prove something that M0ff3l wanted to see before he would believe what tenebre said.

M0ff3l is getting exactly what he asked for, he likes pure white colors being painted on the HQ and the the converted Nurgle marines. More importantly, he has things to prove his points. Here are images of what he asked for and what Blue Table Painting is delivering and it is EXACTLY what he asked for.

So leave M0ff3l alone!

 techsoldaten wrote:
Leave M0ff3l alone!

Yeah!



M0ff3l, did you do the greenstuff work on that Nurgle marine?

 techsoldaten wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
I hope you got some money back from Blue Table Painting when hey couldn't paint the cloak properly and you had to compromise on quality.

Leave M0ff3l alone.

He hired Blue Table Painting as a miniature painting service, he is happy with the job they are doing, and that is the only thing that matters. He does not need to be harassed by people who hire painting services by do not communicate with them, or professional painters who think they could do a better job. He is performing a valuable service by demonstrating the correct way to engage in the communications process with Blue Table Painting and the outstanding customer service the miniature painting service delivers. This thread has made it clear the controversy with tenebre is manufactured and probably exaggerated, just like M0ff3l suggested when he told (and did not get) tenebre to post something to prove something that M0ff3l wanted to see before he would believe what tenebre said.

M0ff3l is getting exactly what he asked for, he likes pure white colors being painted on the HQ and the the converted Nurgle marines. More importantly, he has things to prove his points. Here are images of what he asked for and what Blue Table Painting is delivering and it is EXACTLY what he asked for.

So leave M0ff3l alone!

This post is dripping with so much sarcasm that you can fill William Taft's bathtub with it.

Some of these posts are a little Facetious.

I love it.

The reality of the issue is:

1.Mof is happy with what he is getting.

2.The works speak for themselves.

3. Mof might be a white knight

4. BTP is ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY PERCENT WATCHING THIS THREAD

5. We need to get the word out to the rest of the gaming community about BTP

6. We need to lay off Mof, so he keeps posting.


Thanks
Austin

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah M0ff3l, we all appreciate you for starting this thread and keeping this open. I am glad you are happy with what you are getting and sharing all these insights into working with Blue Table Painting.

There was a lot of confusion about working with miniature painting services before, but this has done a lot to clear up the confusion. I am glad you have proven that all anyone needs to do is communicate clearly for Blue Table Painting to do their best work. This clears up all the confusion started by that tenebre thread and makes it clear he never spoke with them.

Next time I am looking for a level 3 paint job for some miniatures I will be sure to think of Blue Table Painting. So thank you M0ff3l you are doing the entire community a service and proving a point.

hahah what? =)

 Redbad wrote:
2.The works speak for themselves.

They don't really. The first picture of the Marine has so much reflected light (camera flash?) that you can't see anything and the HQ pictures are friggin tiny with poor lighting so you can't make anything out. I'd think any professional painting service of that size would have a photography booth permanently set up so they can just take the model to the booth, snap a photo, send it off. First and foremost long before Tenebre's situation I never would have trusted blue table painting because they don't show proper images.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:
I hope you got some money back from Blue Table Painting when hey couldn't paint the cloak properly and you had to compromise on quality.

Leave M0ff3l alone.

He hired Blue Table Painting as a miniature painting service, he is happy with the job they are doing, and that is the only thing that matters. He does not need to be harassed by people who hire painting services by do not communicate with them, or professional painters who think they could do a better job. He is performing a valuable service by demonstrating the correct way to engage in the communications process with Blue Table Painting and the outstanding customer service the miniature painting service delivers. This thread has made it clear the controversy with tenebre is manufactured and probably exaggerated, just like M0ff3l suggested when he told (and did not get) tenebre to post something to prove something that M0ff3l wanted to see before he would believe what tenebre said.

M0ff3l is getting exactly what he asked for, he likes pure white colors being painted on the HQ and the the converted Nurgle marines. More importantly, he has things to prove his points. Here are images of what he asked for and what Blue Table Painting is delivering and it is EXACTLY what he asked for.

So leave M0ff3l alone!

Quality work from Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service.


My favorite part of the techmarine is how the bolter is all "nurgly" in the same way that my seven year old uses paper mache. Oh that and the minimalism of detail on the entirety of the rest of the mini, really draws you back to the visceral "not a toddler using paper mache" look they were going for.

My favorite parts on cipher is how if i'm standing in my home in new england, these pics were taken in Toledo. Spain.


If we compare these to the level 4 and 6 work in Tenebrous' thread (also work by Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service), i would assume that the plague marine is a level 53, , and cypher a level "divide by zero". The first costing 783.00 and the second costing the solution to the grand unification theory (including alpaca's, something that has thrown Hawking for years. fething alpaca's. It's like a pretentious Llama. ).


Anywho, I look forward to more updates on Blue Table Painting's work.


OH ! Techsoldat.... you should post their investment opportunity. Readers of this thread might like to see their opportunity to invest in Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service. Well.... invest is a bit of a strong word. Invest suggests you'll get "equity" or "shares" or "ownership", but for 120k a year, you can get a shirt. And a cap! And 5 days in Spanish Fork Utah.


Post the link Tech, it would be selfish of you and I to keep this to ourselves!

 Haight wrote:

My favorite part of the techmarine is how the bolter is all "nurgly" in the same way that my seven year old uses paper mache. Oh that and the minimalism of detail on the entirety of the rest of the mini, really draws you back to the visceral "not a toddler using paper mache" look they were going for.

I think the OP did the green stuff conversion work, not BTP...

 Redbad wrote:
Some of these posts are a little Facetious.

I love it.

The reality of the issue is:

1.Mof is happy with what he is getting.

2.The works speak for themselves.

3. Mof might be a white knight

4. BTP is ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY PERCENT WATCHING THIS THREAD

5. We need to get the word out to the rest of the gaming community about BTP

6. We need to lay off Mof, so he keeps posting.


Thanks
Austin

+100

 Casey's Law wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
That looks pretty poor to my eye but the photographs are horrendously unprofessional so it's hard to actually see anything worth seeing. I'm glad you are happy with it though even if I wouldn't be. Wouldn't be very nice if you were disappointed after paying all that money.

There's way too much flash to see the figures properly there. What has level 3 cost him per figure for this?

This has still not been addressed and is, as far as I'm concerned, the only point of interest until it's rectified. These pictures are so bad that there really is no clear idea of what the miniatures look like. As someone else said, try painting even a simple coat of paint in a bad light and then see how it looks under the right lighting. These miniatures could easily be better or worse than I can currently tell but we won't know until we have pictures that show them realistically. All these photographs show is that they have begun to paint your miniatures in vaguely similar colours to those requested.

Probably about 4 years or so ago I considered using BTP for a project. Via email I asked for pictures showing the levels, since the ones on the web at the time were really bad (poor lighting, blurred, I couldn't tell the difference between a level 3 and a level 6 from the pictures). They apologized for the poor pictures, "we got a new camera and were still learning to use it lol" and then did email me pictures just as good as the ones on the web.


I never used them for a commission as a result.

It looks like they may still be learning to use that camera, LoL....

 CptJake wrote:

 Haight wrote:

My favorite part of the techmarine is how the bolter is all "nurgly" in the same way that my seven year old uses paper mache. Oh that and the minimalism of detail on the entirety of the rest of the mini, really draws you back to the visceral "not a toddler using paper mache" look they were going for.

I think the OP did the green stuff conversion work, not BTP...

I believe he did as well, which is where the key minimalism of the entirety of the paint job everywhere else, really shines a spot light on the high quality GS work.

I mean, just look at the leg bereft of blending, highlights, or any detail - the smooth flat pale green acts as a visual funnel working ones eye right back to the GS conversion, as if the subtle understatement of the leg paint job is "nothing to see here, keep moving up".


Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service ; you'll pay for what you get when you use them.

I thought the picture of the marine was a joke. Seriously. The cypher model is ok, barring the flat cloak, but then if that was what was requested, who am I to argue?
However, if I paid a 'professional' and they sent me that marine, I'd be forced to melt it down, sharpen the resulting plastic blob, and ram it in the eye of the 'painter' who had the cheek to charge for it.

 Haight wrote:
OH ! Techsoldat.... you should post their investment opportunity. Readers of this thread might like to see their opportunity to invest in Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service. Well.... invest is a bit of a strong word. Invest suggests you'll get "equity" or "shares" or "ownership", but for 120k a year, you can get a shirt. And a cap! And 5 days in Spanish Fork Utah.


Post the link Tech, it would be selfish of you and I to keep this to ourselves!

Oh, do you mean this one?

http://www.patreon.com/btp

This is not an investment opportunity in the classical sense, in that you own no part of the commercial miniature painting service in exchange for giving them your money.

But this is an opportunity to invest in culture. What we are beginning to see emerge in Spanish Fork, Utah is a new style of painting called table bleue les fauves. There's a very detailed description of the characteristics of this style provided in another thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1590/618082.page#7429362

Basically, what Blue Table Painting is offering is the opportunity to become a patron of this style of painting. By investing in it, you are ensuring their team has the opportunity to go to conventions / tournaments, create videos explaining how they did it, and branch out into different kinds of media. In exchange, you can receive rewards up to and including selections from their new clothing line. At the $10,000 level, you also receive time with the visionary behind this style of painting (who is a mentor) and the chance to spend 5 days at Spanish Fort, Utah being where it all happens.

This should be especially interesting to anyone who is interested in the style of painting evidenced in the pictures in this thread. This new style shuns many of the conventions of traditional representational techniques to explore new ideas about the way we perceive models and the relationship between fantasy and reality. Like M0ff3l talks about, table bleue les fauves is all about getting exactly what you asked for and not what some self-proclaimed 'mastar pheintar' confines you to. The process is centered on communication with a group of artists who each bring their individual creative talents to a piece, sometimes under severe time constraints, and constantly verify their approach through short emails and photos taken at odd angles featuring illumination from irregular perspectives. Unlike older, discredited approaches that recycle the same old basecoat / shade / highlight / extreme highlight methods people have fixated on for decades, this process makes the person purchasing the service a witness to the actions of a team of miniature painters while they work through pieces in a fashion that can change from army to army.

I know of no other miniature painting service with the kind of exciting, cutting edge production techniques used by Blue Table Painting or the kinds of results people are paying for with table bleue les fauves. Becoming a Patreon is a unique opportunity to directly support the commercial entity housing the artists behind this style and to show you care about advancing the culture of miniature wargaming past the strict boundaries set up by the larger, Nottingham-based commercial entity housing it's own artists that has been DOMINATING the way the community thinks about quality for DECADES with their ridiculous publications and grimly representational styles.

You can help advance awareness of table bleue les fauves in other ways:

1) Share information about table bleue les fauves on other websites.

2) Demonstrate examples of this new style on other websites. The photos in this thread and the videos on YouTube's Blue Table Painting channel are perfect examples to share.

3) Point links back to this thread (and that other thread) so people can join in the discussion.

4) Mention 'Blue Table Painting' and the fact they are a 'miniature painting service' everywhere you share. They deserve credit.

Thank you M0ff3l for keeping this thread open despite all the harassment. Thank you Matt from Miniwargaming for endorsing Blue Table Painting's miniature painting service. Thank you Blue Table Painting for fearlessly innovating around new art styles and for all the work you do to feed and nurture the community. I am looking forward to seeing your wondrous creations and getting to spend time with your creative artists (especially Jenienne the instructions lady) at the next Valhalla.

Whoa, for only another $1970 every single month we can get high quality photography! What a deal!

Oh, life size cardboard cut out and a lock of Shawn's hair for just $200 out of my own pocket each month plus bonus weekly, skype brainwashing sessions. Shut up and take my money!

 CptJake wrote:

 Haight wrote:

My favorite part of the techmarine is how the bolter is all "nurgly" in the same way that my seven year old uses paper mache. Oh that and the minimalism of detail on the entirety of the rest of the mini, really draws you back to the visceral "not a toddler using paper mache" look they were going for.

I think the OP did the green stuff conversion work, not BTP...

You are right, I think he said it was a DV DA marine and that it was his first time using GS. If that is true I'd give him credit for at least trying.

When I say the works speak for themselves, I'm not defending Blue Table... The poor lighting just further validates that they really do SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. As I've said before, I could paint a marine like that.. and I'm an amateur painter.

If we can lay off Mof for a bit, this thread might keep going, we'll get more pics, and then these types of conversations can happen. Wait until we get the end product, then hammer.

Thanks
Austin

For most of the models, table top standard would be enough

Colours are blocked in, models are based. That's table top standard by my money. Good of BTP to do some basic highlighting and shading for tabletop standard too.

I think a lot of the small time commission painters posting in this thread need to take a step back and realise that not all commission jobs are meant to be top of the line standard. Sometimes a customer is just paying for something that looks good from 3 foot away. You're causing yourselves unnecessary stress.

My only criticism of BTP is they would better market themselves if they spent half an hour on the internet looking at how to take better pictures. Their camera is too often focusing on background textures instead of the model they try to picture.

Keep us posted MoF.

Thanks to techsoldaten I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

A good table top standard should include at least one pass of shading and at least one pass of highlighting. Blocked in base coat is just that-- basecoated.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Thanks to techsoldaten I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

These threads are getting just a little bit whacky now.

A good table top standard should include at least one pass of shading and at least one pass of highlighting. Blocked in base coat is just that-- basecoated.

"Table top standard" isn't a terribly useful term as it means different things to different people. I've always just interpreted it to mean "what I can paint in a reasonable time such that I will actually be able to produce an entire army", which is entirely dependant on your skill and patience. I fully expect a high end commission service to have a far higher "table top standard" to something like blue table painting which is attempting to be the mcdonalds of miniature painting services.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Thanks to techsoldaten I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

These threads are getting just a little bit whacky now.

A good table top standard should include at least one pass of shading and at least one pass of highlighting. Blocked in base coat is just that-- basecoated.

"Table top standard" isn't a terribly useful term as it means different things to different people. I've always just interpreted it to mean "what I can paint in a reasonable time such that I will actually be able to produce an entire army", which is entirely dependant on your skill and patience. I fully expect a high end commission service to have a far higher "table top standard" to something like blue table painting which is attempting to be the mcdonalds of miniature painting services.

Is Shawn the scary clown then?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Thanks to techsoldaten I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

A good table top standard should include at least one pass of shading and at least one pass of highlighting. Blocked in base coat is just that-- basecoated.

Yea, for clarity, to me basic tabletop standard is base colours down. Good (your word) table top standard is simple highlighting and shading too.

AllSeeingSkink is probably right there is no baseline for what table top standard means. For context I've taken my definitions from publications GW would put out when I was getting started. These pretty much said block in the colours of your basic troops, go a little more detailed on characters and your ready to play. They then recommended to go back and adding a wash, some dry brushing or some edges later.

Perhaps I am outdated in my definitions and a higher minimum standard is now expected. I know in the 'paint your first space marine for free' classes they go into shading/highlighting and on the GW videos they go deeper than just how to move brush from the pot onto the mini.

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Thanks to techsoldaten I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

These threads are getting just a little bit whacky now.

A good table top standard should include at least one pass of shading and at least one pass of highlighting. Blocked in base coat is just that-- basecoated.

"Table top standard" isn't a terribly useful term as it means different things to different people. I've always just interpreted it to mean "what I can paint in a reasonable time such that I will actually be able to produce an entire army", which is entirely dependant on your skill and patience. I fully expect a high end commission service to have a far higher "table top standard" to something like blue table painting which is attempting to be the mcdonalds of miniature painting services.

Is Shawn the scary clown then?

Maybe my analogy has more similarities than I originally intended

Tabletop standard to me is at least a wash on top to give some shading. Something that can at most take a minute or two per model if you need to wash a couple of different colours. Time you budget and plan for when giving quotes for commissions.

nareik wrote:
Perhaps I am outdated in my definitions and a higher minimum standard is now expected. I know in the 'paint your first space marine for free' classes they go into shading/highlighting and on the GW videos they go deeper than just how to move brush from the pot onto the mini.

My thinking is that it can't really be to a standard if it's the minimum possible work to cover all areas of the model with paint*. Whether it's a simple wash or a single pass of highlighting, I'd settle for any improvement over basecoating to get into table top standard.

* To keep on the topic of BTP

 frozenwastes wrote:

nareik wrote:
Perhaps I am outdated in my definitions and a higher minimum standard is now expected. I know in the 'paint your first space marine for free' classes they go into shading/highlighting and on the GW videos they go deeper than just how to move brush from the pot onto the mini.

My thinking is that it can't really be to a standard if it's the minimum possible work to cover all areas of the model with paint*. Whether it's a simple wash or a single pass of highlighting, I'd settle for any improvement over basecoating to get into table top standard.

* To keep on the topic of BTP

Ah, perhaps our differences is due to differences in standards our opponents hold?

I'm happy to play against models with a few different colours blocked in because it's better than unprimed legs stuck to bases*. Plus, base coating is more complicated than just covering a model in paint. It does take effort to keep the 'paint within the lines', especially for people with less experience in the hobby or simply less physical ability. I also prefer neatly blocked to roughly blobbed, messily drybrushed and badly washed minis.

*In fairness to my opponent he was restarting the hobby after a complete clear out and just wanted to see how the game worked these days.

For me 'Tabletop Quality is:
Cleaned
Primed
Basecoated
Wash
Drybrush
Some detail work (the eagles on space marines, eyes, teeth)
Basing (not detailed, but at least sand/flock/ or gravel)

Not top end, careful shading, but a simple wash and highlight.

The BTP work shown in this post.... Is not something that I would paint, nor is it something that I would buy, but it more or less qualifies for tabletop.

If the painter were a beginner then I would say encouraging words when it showed up on the table.

From an experienced player... I wouldn't have much to say.

The Auld Grump

nareik wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

nareik wrote:
Perhaps I am outdated in my definitions and a higher minimum standard is now expected. I know in the 'paint your first space marine for free' classes they go into shading/highlighting and on the GW videos they go deeper than just how to move brush from the pot onto the mini.

My thinking is that it can't really be to a standard if it's the minimum possible work to cover all areas of the model with paint*. Whether it's a simple wash or a single pass of highlighting, I'd settle for any improvement over basecoating to get into table top standard.

* To keep on the topic of BTP

Ah, perhaps our differences is due to differences in standards our opponents hold?

I'm happy to play against models with a few different colours blocked in because it's better than unprimed legs stuck to bases*. Plus, base coating is more complicated than just covering a model in paint. It does take effort to keep the 'paint within the lines', especially for people with less experience in the hobby or simply less physical ability. I also prefer neatly blocked to roughly blobbed, messily drybrushed and badly washed minis.

*In fairness to my opponent he was restarting the hobby after a complete clear out and just wanted to see how the game worked these days.

Base coating is super simple if it is a space marine, even more so if it a solid color one like nurgle marines. So it kinda is just painting a mini in once color.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Tabletop standard to me is at least a wash on top to give some shading. Something that can at most take a minute or two per model if you need to wash a couple of different colours. Time you budget and plan for when giving quotes for commissions.

Depends on the model. If you're going for a "gritty" look on models that have a decent amount of surface detail then washing the entire model devlan mud can be a worthwhile step on the road to "table top quality". If the models don't have a lot of surface details or you are going for a bright contrasting scheme that doesn't suit a single wash colour doing a wash might not be a good use of time to someone just trying to get models on the table to play with.

Based on my experience of what people actually play with, "table top quality" typically seems to lie somewhere between "primed" and "roughly painted block colours with no shading/highlighting"

nareik wrote:

My only criticism of BTP is they would better market themselves if they spent half an hour on the internet looking at how to take better pictures. Their camera is too often focusing on background textures instead of the model they try to picture.

It seems that they had this type of photos for as long as they have been in business. The quality of their photos might be intentional to keep expectations vague.

Mario wrote:

nareik wrote:

My only criticism of BTP is they would better market themselves if they spent half an hour on the internet looking at how to take better pictures. Their camera is too often focusing on background textures instead of the model they try to picture.

It seems that they had this type of photos for as long as they have been in business. The quality of their photos might be intentional to keep expectations vague.

Yep! you'd think a company that works in visual arts, who appear to be very proud of their work, would after a decade of successful business have re-invested some money back into the company for buying and setting up a decent photographic and video studio to show off what awesome work they do, wouldn't you? That, in its self, for me raises a big red magic banner of "we are trying to hide the actual quality of our work"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqBotowPfC4

Pictures will follow according to BTP.

It looks like a low to middle end table top paint job, honestly I wouldn't have paid for it but to each his own I guess.

A few things I found terrible with the video, even on 720p the camera quality was terrible, and shaun couldn't be bothered to let the camera focus most of the time. Second I would of rejected the rhinos solely based on that "free hand" where the lines aren't even straight.

 Ustrello wrote:
It looks like a low to middle end table top paint job, honestly I wouldn't have paid for it but to each his own I guess.

A few things I found terrible with the video, even on 720p the camera quality was terrible, and shaun couldn't be bothered to let the camera focus most of the time. Second I would of rejected the rhinos solely based on that "free hand" where the lines aren't even straight.

Will request them to remove the small fly freehand on the second rhino. The big one is alright, not great but alright. The small one I didnt request so Dunno why its on there

I really like that Cypher and Sorceror conversion. In general this was a nice job of making the DV set go that extra mile.

Also it looks like they literally just painted some pallid wych flesh onto cyphers face and called it a day.

I'm glad you are happy with your end product.

Thanks
Austin

 Ustrello wrote:
Also it looks like they literally just painted some pallid wych flesh onto cyphers face and called it a day.

No cypher has painted eyes/teeth and a stubble where his facial here would be.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Also it looks like they literally just painted some pallid wych flesh onto cyphers face and called it a day.

No cypher has painted eyes/teeth and a stubble where his facial here would be.

Okay I can see the stubble, but no teeth or eyes, just black holes where the eyes are. Also unless Cypher is really an undercover Raven Guard traitor, his face should be more than an greyish white.

Omg.. The paint job was much much worse then I first thought.. I coulden't see it in the pictures but on video it was super clear, the white on the cloak looks horrible! And did you see the hood? They clearly failed to block the colors, they got paint from the pelt on it.. How can anyone consider BTP to be a good painting service when this is the best they can do? And be sure that they are putting effort into it, seeing they know about this thread. Just compare it to the competition out there.. DOI??

I just noticed, they didn't drill the Obliterators..

It looks like they didn't bother with the eyes on the daemon flesh on the Hellbrute..

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
Omg.. The paint job was much much worse then I first thought.. I coulden't see it in the pictures but on video it was super clear, the white on the cloak looks horrible! And did you see the hood? They clearly failed to block the colors, they got paint from the pelt on it.. How can anyone consider BTP to be a good painting service when this is the best they can do? And be sure that they are putting effort into it, seeing they know about this thread. Just compare it to the competition out there.. DOI??

I just noticed, they didn't drill the Obliterators..

It looks like they didn't bother with the eyes on the daemon flesh on the Hellbrute..

I didnt drill the obliterators, they werent paid for any assembly work asside from the havocs (which they ended up doing for free)

Damn I missed a lot after I stopped following this thread. Can anyone give a TLDR please?

OP sent very specific instructions of exactly what he wanted. BTP partially deliver (some models have unrequested free hand, whereas others have some mistakes with the blocking in of colours).

BTP provided pic updates and made changes based on feedback.

Lots of posts complaining about the models GS work, lack of drilling on weapons and so on, but these are the OPs work, not BTP's.

Lots of posts saying BTP are being lazy by mainly painting through base/drybrush/wash, but I get the impression this is the level the OP requested for his rank and vile.

So basically lots of attacks on BTP on things they don't deserve to be attacked on (modelling work, and basic level paintjob) but some fair criticisms too (mistakes blocking in colour).

nareik wrote:
OP sent very specific instructions of exactly what he wanted. BTP partially deliver (some models have unrequested free hand, whereas others have some mistakes with the blocking in of colours).

BTP provided pic updates and made changes based on feedback.

Lots of posts complaining about the models GS work, lack of drilling on weapons and so on, but these are the OPs work, not BTP's.

Lots of posts saying BTP are being lazy by mainly painting through base/drybrush/wash, but I get the impression this is the level the OP requested for his rank and vile.

So basically lots of attacks on BTP on things they don't deserve to be attacked on (modelling work, and basic level paintjob) but some fair criticisms too (mistakes blocking in colour).

He requested rank and vile, classic!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/sets/72157647485459253/

pictures are up

The one thing that stands out to me as something I would not be happy with is the free hand on the Rhino, the use of the light green to try to clean the edges of the black on the big one looks sloppy, black shows through in a few places.

Well as long as the OP is happy I suppose.

Still nothing to write home about, though it is one of their lower levels.

I can't help but feel after this and Ten's thread that other services are still a better deal overall.

Thanks for finishing this through to the end.

Oh look, my dudes...

Winterdyne, your Arbites are looking amazing, love the more realistic vibe to them, and great placement of color.

 M0ff3l wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/sets/72157647485459253/

pictures are up

So what they couldn't even paint the eyes on typhus? or even the eyes on the plague marines all the way. Also the free hand is even worse in the pictures than on the video. Also going back to the eyes they didn't paint them all the way on the helmeted marines and they had overflow on the bionic eyes.

I don't like the OP at all, but even with them watching this you still got screwed and if I were you I'd put the screws to the miniature painting service known as blue table painting and get them to actually fix the horrid eyes and free hand.

 Ustrello wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/sets/72157647485459253/

pictures are up

So what they couldn't even paint the eyes on typhus? or even the eyes on the plague marines all the way. Also the free hand is even worse in the pictures than on the video. Also going back to the eyes they didn't paint them all the way on the helmeted marines and they had overflow on the bionic eyes.

I don't like the OP at all, but even with them watching this you still got screwed and if I were you I'd put the screws to the miniature painting service known as blue table painting and get them to actually fix the horrid eyes and free hand.

I'm with this guy.

I'm not here to attack modeling errors, because we all make them (myself included, I misdrilled a Storm Bolter and now it's muzzle is crooked, who cares?)

However, that paint job... That is NOT a decent table top job, that, my friend, is poor.

I do better than that AND charge less.

Ill start from the top i guess.

1: Kudos to OP, the Cypher model is possibly the best Cypher conversion i have seen to date, so kudos there.

2: The librarian, while simple, is very effective and in general pretty damn solid.
So again, Kudos to the OP.

3: The fact that nearly everything from DV has a use is great and shows it can be done time and time again.


Ok, on to the painting.

1: Seems like alot of very beginner mistakes that a commission painter should not be making.
Mainly seems like missed areas or areas that have been patched up badly, like a few brush marks you can see the covering on.
This is something that really should be checked as i will admit, even when painting a few models its easy to overlook this, so a few final checks would not go amiss.

2: Freehand.
Not sure where to start really.
I know its nurgle themed, but poor coverage with the base colours, very wonky lines (quick fix with tape)
Just seems like a great idea that didnt go as planned.
Maybe this was because of the painting level?
Im unsure of what stage they start freehand though.

3: in general its just alot of sloppy mistakes which are easily spotted, so to reiterate, final checks are essential!



Now, my biggest point.
Photography!
For a commission company, this should be the bread and butter that attracts customers to them or reassures and builds trust with customers they have.

They could freehand the mona lisa onto a cloak and it would look poor all because of this poor quality of pictures.

I cant stress enough at how damaging poor pictures could be to people.



Take a quick look at any commission thread (winterdyne, GMM, ifalna, jah etc.... just a few from the top of my head)
Their pictures are flawless.
As such, their work is represented very well because of this (and the fact they are all amazing painters)


Without good quality pictures, i really see this going down hill.





Now, in general, you get a few iffy messages here and there about commission work.
Granted alot is down to choice and taste, but alot of this here does come down to small mistakes on BTP's part with the painting.
Their work is being posted on a very popular forum and the commission is represented in this, so you would think they would go the extra mile with anything for just the advertising alone.



Thats just my thoughts anyway.
At the end of the day, if OP is happy then he has what he wanted from his money, and in his eyes it would be worth it.
But as i said, just my opinion

Whats up with the "Highlights" in the bolters??? Ive not Seen such sloppy and rushed work from any other painting service.

If an opponent puts that army on the table and they've painted it themselves, I say well done. Not everyone can paint to amazing standards, and I consider that a perfectly acceptable tabletop standard. The conversion work stands out especially as being very well executed, with only a few mistakes worth mentioning (the holes on the drilled out guns not being central).

Should I feel the need to be critical about anything I would say that the freehand is quite poor and stands out as rubbish even from the relatively low standard of the rest of the paint job.

That's if I felt the need to be critical of somebody's home painted army.

As a professional job I call the whole lot rubbish, even at the low end of Blue Table Painting's miniature painting service price list.

I wanna know why there is so much brush hair/flock hair on your Typhus model. Surely they would remove that before a picture. Jesus thats a lot of hair. especially on his back

 conker249 wrote:
I wanna know why there is so much brush hair/flock hair on your Typhus model. Surely they would remove that before a picture. Jesus thats a lot of hair. especially on his back

I think that is snow flock, but it looks like they kinda drizzled it from above onto the base when there are tons of other better options.

I looked at all the pictures, there is flock hair on every single model except Cypher, assault cannon terminator, one biker, and the banner holder. Even the rhinos have a few. My ocd kicking in

I will be blunt. That freehand on the rhino looks garbage.

Witch to me is confusing to me. With painting tape that design should of been EASY for a supposed perfesstional painting company to do.

I have no words for how bad I think that work is from a professional standpoint.

'fething disgusting' comes close, but doesn't quite have the vehemence I'm looking for.

Edit: Removed image of work. I don't really think the comparison is worthwhile.

What dollar value was involved here? $1,200?

Yeah that is probably too much. I could paint better than that, and I am pretty bad - I'd say I am average at best, but obviously a rookie. That Rhino freehand is so shockingly bad, it isn't even centred, and as others have pointed out, could have been done with some painters tape in about 10 minutes.

Sorry about your purchase.

kb_lock wrote:
What dollar value was involved here? $1,200?

It was $800.

 Blacksails wrote:

kb_lock wrote:
What dollar value was involved here? $1,200?

It was $800.

740$ really, they ended up doing the havoc launchers for free.

Really? Op had put down a $450 deposit with $650 to pay from what I saw - there must have been an update I missed.

If it is $800, that is still pretty high

kb_lock wrote:
Really? Op had put down a $450 deposit with $650 to pay from what I saw - there must have been an update I missed.

If it is $800, that is still pretty high

The deposit was 65% of the total. Don't add the two numbers, just worry about where it says total and ignore the deposit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 M0ff3l wrote:


740$ really, they ended up doing the havoc launchers for free.

As they should have. I was super sketched out by them even attempting to charge that amount for that little work/bits.

Been following this from the get go. I was interested to see where it'd go.

All I can say from the pics we've been shown is ouch.

Based on what has been shown, I believe that this has served as a warning not to use this service.

Thanks moff3l for posting the final pics. I genuinely hope you are happy with your army.

Considering how public this process has been, I'm pretty stunned at the sloppiness of some of the work though. The freehand is a disgrace. When you compare their standards to some of the other studios on dakka, it's like night and day.

$740 is far less horrible, I probably wouldn't do it for less than that (were I to do commissions, which I wouldn't because I suck) - as for the quality, well I'd be getting them to fix up the Rhino and whatever else, but that is really up to OP

Akragth wrote:
Based on what has been shown, I believe that this has served as a warning not to use this service.

Yeah this, unfortunately

M0ff3l I hope you are happy with your Nurgle army and had a pleasant experience with Blue Table Painting. Your conversion work is awesome, I agree with others in that your Cpher is just amazing. You did a fantastic job and you deserve to be happy with this army.

That said, BTP had to know that this was going to be a very critical project due to the nature of this topic and everyone watching it in response to Ten's Chaos Dwarf fiasco. This paint job is just...lacking and sloppy. As someone else said, if this were a random persons paint job I would say it looks good. For a professional company to put their name on it, it is just not up to snuff. It lacks professionalism and care that a paid product should exhibit and the details are there for all to see, the paint job does not do the conversion work justice.

What i haven't heard is what the OP thinks.

Wow...just wow. The freehand is awful. The army overall isn't horrible but not something I would've paid $740 for.

 Toofast wrote:
Wow...just wow. The freehand is awful. The army overall isn't horrible but not something I would've paid $740 for.

Yeah it was a simple scheme that I believe op could of achieved fairly easily, judging from his submitted images. I could understand commissioning out cypher as that is a pretty sweet looking model and had some conversions.

Overall, I think it's acceptable. The overall price is competitive (especially considering conversion work). Would I use BTP? No, because I was screwed by them four years ago and can't trust them. Looks like they did okay here though.

OP, I'd ask for photos of some of the line marines showing their backside especially around the backpacks. That's where you may see exposed primer and even bare plastic. I think they use a kind of pre-shade technique with their basecoat. They don't always get complete coverage.

I understand all the levelled criticism (the freehand work on the rhinos is not pretty). However, for the price, I'm leaning towards, yes, but would need more pics showing they completely covered models in paint.

Nice! I've worked with BTP and was very happy with their results. They weren't cheap, but everything went smoothly.

Good luck.

 themonk wrote:
Overall, I think it's acceptable. The overall price is competitive (especially considering conversion work).

What conversion work?

OP did the conversions himself with the exception of the missile launchers on the Rhinos.

 CptJake wrote:

 themonk wrote:
Overall, I think it's acceptable. The overall price is competitive (especially considering conversion work).

What conversion work?

OP did the conversions himself with the exception of the missile launchers on the Rhinos.

Apologies, I just checked that last work order on the first post. Still, I think it may be acceptable as I see it.

It's not as bad as I'd feared. I still won't touch BTP with a ten foot barge pole, but it could've been worse. Hopefully OP is happy.

Guys, you need to remember that OP paid $740 for that paintjob. By commission painting standards, I'd say he got what he paid for. Okay, so yeah it's a basic level that pretty much any unprofessional hobbyist could also accomplish (provided they have the time)... but just consider what other, actual professional services would charge for their superior, high-end tabletop+ paintjobs in comparison.

The message is clear, as it was with tenebre's case: Blue Table Painting charge cheaper than most because they deliver results that are cheaper than most, which is okay (if you're happy with that standard, like the OP) if you go for their basic/low "levels". It becomes a problem in cases like tenebre's where you entrust a very large, high-cost army and request a higher-end paintjob (of which it is clear they are incapable of delivering, no matter the charged amount).

tenebre was (severely) ripped off, whereas OP got what they paid for.

I don't know.

I'm pretty sure there are other services that offer ~$10 per mini rates. I'm also pretty sure those other services would have a cleaner finish and better attention to details.

In the end, if OP is happy, then that's all that really matters. That said, I don't think this has exactly put BTP in any more positive light, at least not good enough for me to consider them over half a dozen other services off the top of my head.

 Anfauglir wrote:
Guys, you need to remember that OP paid $740 for that paintjob. By commission painting standards, I'd say he got what he paid for. Okay, so yeah it's a basic level that pretty much any unprofessional hobbyist could also accomplish (provided they have the time)... but just consider what other, actual professional services would charge for their superior, high-end tabletop+ paintjobs in comparison.

The message is clear, as it was with tenebre's case: Blue Table Painting charge cheaper than most because they deliver results that are cheaper than most, which is okay (if you're happy with that standard, like the OP) if you go for their basic/low "levels". It becomes a problem in cases like tenebre's where you entrust a very large, high-cost army and request a higher-end paintjob (of which it is clear they are incapable of delivering, no matter the charged amount).

tenebre was (severely) ripped off, whereas OP got what they paid for.

If you go by a pure break down he paid around 30 dollars per miniature/vehicle. Winter posted some minis that were rated at 25 per and the difference was amazing.

 Anfauglir wrote:


The message is clear, as it was with tenebre's case: Blue Table Painting charge cheaper than most because they deliver results that are cheaper than most, which is okay (if you're happy with that standard, like the OP) if you go for their basic/low "levels". It becomes a problem in cases like tenebre's where you entrust a very large, high-cost army and request a higher-end paintjob (of which it is clear they are incapable of delivering, no matter the charged amount).

On the contrary, several commission painters have posted in Tenebre's thread saying that they do a higher quality for the same price or less than BTP.

Maybe my standards are lower, but I'm not overly offended for the price. That said, I know lots of smaller one man companies that would do a better job at that price point, and a few competing services would too. I saw a level 1 set of Orks on the Frontline Gaming site, and was pleasantly surprised. It had freehand flames on some of the plates/rokkits etc.

The conversion work is great, I love nurgle armies. And the conversion and use of DV models is great! The cypher conversion, I love!

The freehand is for me a sticking point. It looks like they've thinned the paint (which is good) to get smooth lines. They haven't quite made them straight (not a big deal for nurgle, IMHO) but you can see the black through. They should be able to put down another two coats and it will look a LOT better.

One thing I'm surprised about, is they didn't offer to do a weathered design on the back, instead of freehand. You cut a vinyl template of the shape (easy because it's geometric), then you spray down a layer of chipping medium, then spray the black, then paint on the green edges. Then you use a brush with some water on it, to remove bits of the design (via the chipping medium). You end up with the design looking like it was applied years ago, and is wearing out.

Easy to do, we know they've got airbrushes, and super characterful for Nurgle!

I consider myself an OK level painter, and working to get better, but even I Can paint much better than this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/16045259465/in/set-72157647485459253

Flat black robes with the shoddy red and blue "highlights" are pretty bad, and the green on the scythe does not help.

 RivenSkull wrote:
I consider myself an OK level painter, and working to get better, but even I Can paint much better than this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/16045259465/in/set-72157647485459253

Flat black robes with the shoddy red and blue "highlights" are pretty bad, and the green on the scythe does not help.

I have nothing to say to that except I would never have guessed that paintjob came from a professional if I hadn't have seen it here. Not ever.

Honestly, it's not terrible work, it's certainly better than most armies I've seen in person. But the OP paid almost $800 for this? I think that's a pretty strong argument against ever using BTP, even with a project in a public review right after a major disaster the best you can get is mediocre results.

Sorry, but that is not a paintjob worth 3/4 of a grand. For that much, the OP could have gotten an entire army painted to the standard of the Cypher or better. I personally know commission painters who can do better work than that for that price; less than that price, even!

I really don't understand how BTP still gets work. I'm really not trying to sound abrasive, I seriously don't understand it. Surely, I can't be the only one thinking that that paintjob is pretty atrocious for the price? Note, I'm specifying for the price. That's not much more than a basecoat, some drybrushes, and a wash. That's it. Each one of those marines probably took an hour or two, realistically; even then, the final product leaves a lot to be desired. The $60 freehand work? They didn't even properly blend it into the top of the chassis! Incredibly sloppy. I also couldn't help but laugh out loud at the $60 charge to pop on some havoc launchers. Ridiculous.

I seriously hope that the OP is happy, and he sounds like he is. For all intents and purposes; good for you! I wish you all the fun games and pestilent goodness on the battlefield! But I personally wouldn't give them a penny knowing that was what I was going to get. That is far below the threshold of "bang for your buck" for me. Just my $0.02.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I really don't understand how BTP still gets work.

Marketing, and a large pool of potential victims customers who aren't really familiar with commission painting and what to expect for what prices. Then the entire way they run their business is designed to make it as difficult as possible to back out of a purchase, so if you realize too late that BTP sucks and is ripping you off all you can do is consider it an expensive lesson and go elsewhere next time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I really don't understand how BTP still gets work.

Marketing, and a large pool of potential victims customers who aren't really familiar with commission painting and what to expect for what prices. Then the entire way they run their business is designed to make it as difficult as possible to back out of a purchase, so if you realize too late that BTP sucks and is ripping you off all you can do is consider it an expensive lesson and go elsewhere next time.

Assuming, of course, that the experience doesn't sour your entire perception of the hobby; seeing as how a lot of their customers are new players/hobbyists.

Alright, so I've done some commission painting in the past, so I tend to sympathize with "for pay" painters...the job is tedious, long, and no one wants to pay a fair price for your time...

But what's really unforgivable here, is to charge someone 60 bucks (if I remember correctly) for some big chunky "freehand" and then to not even make an effort to try and blend the dang thing in to the work around it!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15422982014/in/set-72157647485459253/

Anfauglir wrote:Guys, you need to remember that OP paid $740 for that paintjob. By commission painting standards, I'd say he got what he paid for....

...tenebre was (severely) ripped off, whereas OP got what they paid for.

That's basically my thought as well. How much did he pay per model? The freehand looks rough but it's what I expect on a tank that has only had a few hours spent on it. To do it really well would require masking or a lot of patience which consumes a lot of time (and thus money for a commission service).

Blacksails wrote:I don't know.

I'm pretty sure there are other services that offer ~$10 per mini rates. I'm also pretty sure those other services would have a cleaner finish and better attention to details.

Such as? Maybe Polish painters? I know they have pretty low wages over there. $10 per model would be an hour or less per model, I wouldn't actually expect much better than what he got while paying for an hour or less work per model.

Every since youtube painters popularized airbrushing with zenithal highlighting, some brush work and an oil wash, there has been a huge proliferation of commission painters who will turn the project around very fast and very cheaply at that price.

What I would have done if I were the OP is spent that money on an airbrush, compressor and paints. He's got green stuff and converting skills and I bet he'd have taken to airbrushing naturally.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Every since youtube painters popularized airbrushing with zenithal highlighting, some brush work and an oil wash, there has been a huge proliferation of commission painters who will turn the project around very fast and very cheaply at that price.

What I would have done if I were the OP is spent that money on an airbrush, compressor and paints. He's got green stuff and converting skills and I bet he'd have taken to airbrushing naturally.

I have an airbrush.... it doesn't actually make me all that much faster for most models. I can do effects I couldn't do before, but it doesn't really speed me up. I can apply basecoats quicker, but that was never a huge slab of time before anyway, and cleaning the brush would probably even it out. Good for speeding up tanks though.

 Anfauglir wrote:
Guys, you need to remember that OP paid $740 for that paintjob. By commission painting standards, I'd say he got what he paid for. Okay, so yeah it's a basic level that pretty much any unprofessional hobbyist could also accomplish (provided they have the time)... but just consider what other, actual professional services would charge for their superior, high-end tabletop+ paintjobs in comparison.

Like a couple of other people have said, I agree with this. If the OP is happy, more power to him.

Personally, I would have charged more and it would have taken longer, but I operate differently than BTP.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15426111193/in/set-72157647485459253/

There even are red slops on the havoc launchers :/

I just don't get why Moff3l used BTP.
There are studios out there that are EXTREMELY good...
Granted, this one was most likely a "bit" more expensive, but THAT is some freehand work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/denofimagination/sets/72157649538121886/

Level 3, which is about the same price, gets you this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSTZJdc-8p4
At least clean colours, no slops and a solid white. Cost: 10-13$ per model. OP paid 10$ if I read it right for basic troops.
So... WHY?
Why is Blue table painting, Miniature Painting Service, Spanish Fork, Utah still around?

I think the saving grace for this army are the conversions that the buyer made. I'm really digging them. You could probably make a few bucks doing conversions for people.

Are the white tuffs supposed to be mold or snow? I'm a little confused...

Unfortunately, BTP has shot themselves in the foot by taking close-up pics. However, I do appreciate it when painters take clear shots like this, and at least the buyer (and future customers) can clearly see what they are paying for. I'm sure while standing at a table (about 3 or 4 feet away) and looking down, this army doesn't look terrible.

As it has been said before, if you are happy with what you purchased, then that is all that matters.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Every since youtube painters popularized airbrushing with zenithal highlighting, some brush work and an oil wash, there has been a huge proliferation of commission painters who will turn the project around very fast and very cheaply at that price.

As someone that recently got an airbrush and was looking for interesting things to do with it, I thank you for this "zenithal highlighting" term. It looks like a great place to start.

(also, no, I have no interest in becoming a commission painter).

Here's a tutorial: http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/winterdyne_tutorial1.pdf

Absolutionis wrote:As someone that recently got an airbrush and was looking for interesting things to do with it, I thank you for this "zenithal highlighting" term. It looks like a great place to start.

(also, no, I have no interest in becoming a commission painter).

It's a simple and effective technique. And the more the miniature is a single colour like space marines often are, the more time it can save.

winterdyne wrote:Here's a tutorial: http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/winterdyne_tutorial1.pdf

This is one of the best painting articles I have ever read. Anywhere.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Such as? Maybe Polish painters? I know they have pretty low wages over there. $10 per model would be an hour or less per model, I wouldn't actually expect much better than what he got while paying for an hour or less work per model.

Frontline gaming for one has a $7 per infantry, put you pay for the basing separately, which would put it at $8. Hell, they're level 2 model and base is $12, which looks significantly better. They're level 1 is on par with what we've seen in this thread, and looks cleaner too.

A quick look at Winter's stuff in this thread and the pricing guide would have put the total costs in similar ballparks, but I'd argue you'd get more value from Winter.

I got a quote from Waaagh studios a while back when I fell into some money for a potential project, and the pricing scheme was similar to BTP's if I remember correctly for the level I wanted, which was the lowest I believe.

I don't know about the Polish guys, but everything I've seen next to a Polish flag has been beautiful. Must be something in the water.

 Thairne wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15426111193/in/set-72157647485459253/

There even are red slops on the havoc launchers :/

I just don't get why Moff3l used BTP.
There are studios out there that are EXTREMELY good...
Granted, this one was most likely a "bit" more expensive, but THAT is some freehand work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/denofimagination/sets/72157649538121886/

Level 3, which is about the same price, gets you this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSTZJdc-8p4
At least clean colours, no slops and a solid white. Cost: 10-13$ per model. OP paid 10$ if I read it right for basic troops.
So... WHY?
Why is Blue table painting, Miniature Painting Service, Spanish Fork, Utah still around?

That Den of Imagination knight is their highest level isn't it? I remember seeing the video they released covering it.

As for comparing DoI and BTP that's like comparing a child's finger painting to something akin to a professional work, you can't really do it.

Yeah it is, and I wager it did cost a pretty penny. But it is a stunning piece and shows what a freehand can look like.

The Level 3 Marines are however in the same price range, which underlines how sub-par Blue Table Painting, Miniature Painting Service in Spanish Fork, Utah, actually is.
If you can get DoI-level quality, why take BTP?

I feel this thread really did backfire back in the opposite direction. While BTP's behaviour DID improve with this comission, their work didn't.

 Thairne wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15426111193/in/set-72157647485459253/

There even are red slops on the havoc launchers :/

I just don't get why Moff3l used BTP.
There are studios out there that are EXTREMELY good...
Granted, this one was most likely a "bit" more expensive, but THAT is some freehand work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/denofimagination/sets/72157649538121886/

Den of Imagination does some good work. I actually saw a Contemptor Dreadnought they did, you just could not take your eyes off it. Really stood out in comparison to every other model on the board.

At the same time, guys, comparisons like this are not fair. Moff3l started this thread to talk about the process of working with Blue Table Painting. It's apples and oranges, no matter how much we want to point to other services, the only thing that really matters is whether Moff3l is satisfied.

Moff3l - can you tell us? How satisfied are you with the models you are getting back? Has it been worth it?

The btp painting just has all these little mistakes across the board that you would think a commission painting service wouldn't make mostly.

I get that you aren't paying top dollar, but some of these are just ridiculous. Like not painting the eyes on the hellbrute's demon flesh. That's kinda a large detail to miss...

 M0ff3l wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/sets/72157647485459253/

pictures are up

They haven't painted the eyes on the daemon flesh on the Hellbrute.. The eyes in general is horrible, just look at Typhus.. I mean I'm a really really gakky painter, like far bellow average and I sure as hell make sure to paint the entire eye.. And I sure as hell painted the eyes on the Hellbrutes daemon flesh.. This is not professional painting standard, no matter what level you paid for..

I really can't tell the difference between level 3 and level 5... I really can't. Very mediocre results on this one for the money paid.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetablepainting/15426111193/in/set-72157647485459253/

There even are red slops on the havoc launchers :/

I just don't get why Moff3l used BTP.
There are studios out there that are EXTREMELY good...
Granted, this one was most likely a "bit" more expensive, but THAT is some freehand work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/denofimagination/sets/72157649538121886/

Den of Imagination does some good work. I actually saw a Contemptor Dreadnought they did, you just could not take your eyes off it. Really stood out in comparison to every other model on the board.

At the same time, guys, comparisons like this are not fair. Moff3l started this thread to talk about the process of working with Blue Table Painting. It's apples and oranges, no matter how much we want to point to other services, the only thing that really matters is whether Moff3l is satisfied.

Moff3l - can you tell us? How satisfied are you with the models you are getting back? Has it been worth it?

`Of course Moff3l is satisfied - he has very low standards and expectations.

My favourite bit is the all the red on the rhinos. Is it supposed to be OSL? Of course not, they've just gone SIZE TWO BRUSH PAINT ALL THE THINGS.

Pretty shoddy when all is said and done.

Can't blame OPs defensive nature, no one likes having failings pointed out - whether they've made them or purchased them.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Den of Imagination does some good work. I actually saw a Contemptor Dreadnought they did, you just could not take your eyes off it. Really stood out in comparison to every other model on the board.

At the same time, guys, comparisons like this are not fair. Moff3l started this thread to talk about the process of working with Blue Table Painting. It's apples and oranges, no matter how much we want to point to other services, the only thing that really matters is whether Moff3l is satisfied.

Moff3l - can you tell us? How satisfied are you with the models you are getting back? Has it been worth it?

`Of course Moff3l is satisfied - he has very low standards and expectations.

Let's be nice. He did pay money for this, and telling him to feel bad doesn't help anyone.

I am being nice, just pointing out what Moff3l himself has admitted to. His expectations are already low, so he's inevitably going to be easier to please.

("I don't think its possible to do good shading on white cloaks so I asked for a flat white").

EDIT: nevermind. Forgot you were the sarcastic one.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Den of Imagination does some good work. I actually saw a Contemptor Dreadnought they did, you just could not take your eyes off it. Really stood out in comparison to every other model on the board.

At the same time, guys, comparisons like this are not fair. Moff3l started this thread to talk about the process of working with Blue Table Painting. It's apples and oranges, no matter how much we want to point to other services, the only thing that really matters is whether Moff3l is satisfied.

Moff3l - can you tell us? How satisfied are you with the models you are getting back? Has it been worth it?

`Of course Moff3l is satisfied - he has very low standards and expectations.

Let's be nice. He did pay money for this, and telling him to feel bad doesn't help anyone.

I can't trust your word after you mastered sarcasm and ascended to another plane of existence, Tech.

At the least the OP may have a starting point - he can detail the miniatures himself, as opportunity/the mood hits him.

The freehand, in particular, will need to be touched up. I am kind of surprised that BTP didn't make a stencil and airbrush the fly on the rhino - but then that may just be from seeing the recent Kickstarter for stencils.

It will at least take the OTP less time to touch up and detail than it would have taken him to paint the entirety from scratch.

I have seen worse minis, though, I will admit, not from a professional service.

The conversions that the OP himself did are quite nice - it is the paint job that is the failing of this army.

And even that is salvageable, though... trying to salvage a what is supposed to be a professional paint job does stick in my craw, a wee bit.

The Auld Grump

Well, it looks pretty much like something I painted, so not very good really, personally I would not pay for a paint job like that.

The OP did get what he paid for though and thats what matters here, it was not a lot of money for not a lot of work.

Anyone using BTP in the future should start a thread here just to make sure you get the best service possible.

Ignoring what the minimum standards of what commission painting should or should not be, so ignoring whether this was painted by a day one hobbyist or a golden daemon winner...

Is it painted to a table top standard?

I so didn't catch the red blots on the havoc launchers, nice spot whoever first caught it!

Also, the eyes on the Hellbrute, come on...

I would ask BTP for a price reduction... If I sent this shoddy work as a finished project, I'd offer at least a 75% decrease in price because *I'M* the one who messed it up.

Also, the brush hairs stuck in the paint on Typhus... REALLY?! Can BTP not afford good brushes to paint with?

Off topic, but looking at the pictures... I gotta comment on your conversions!

That is an awesome plasma conversion on the DV unit leader/icon bearer!

The terminator combi weapons are all nice work too.

Thanks for posting again. Let us know what you think when you have the miniatures in hand. They might not stand up to scrutiny when there is a whole forum combing for errors, but will they pass the "3 foot away" test for table top play?

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
I so didn't catch the red blots on the havoc launchers, nice spot whoever first caught it!

Also, the eyes on the Hellbrute, come on...

I would ask BTP for a price reduction... If I sent this shoddy work as a finished project, I'd offer at least a 75% decrease in price because *I'M* the one who messed it up.

Also, the brush hairs stuck in the paint on Typhus... REALLY?! Can BTP not afford good brushes to paint with?

I think thats flock from the basing, I will remove it for sure.  Also the eyes on the helbrute are being painted now.

Moff, a couple guys are asking, and since you're back in the thread again...what's your POV? Are you satisfied? If you are, then everything is golden. If you aren't, it's further proof of BTP messing up, as you've clearly shown to be rooting for them. Most of the guys on here have made up their mind (I'm guilty as well) of never using BTP. But would you utilize their services again? That's really all that matters, as you're a current customer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as an addendum: I wouldn't use them as I like to paint my own stuff. But I wouldn't utilize anyone's painting services. Your infantry looked pretty good to me, but the vehicle freehand flies are awful. They should have paid you for the work they did on those.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Moff, a couple guys are asking, and since you're back in the thread again...what's your POV? Are you satisfied? If you are, then everything is golden. If you aren't, it's further proof of BTP messing up, as you've clearly shown to be rooting for them. Most of the guys on here have made up their mind (I'm guilty as well) of never using BTP. But would you utilize their services again? That's really all that matters, as you're a current customer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as an addendum: I wouldn't use them as I like to paint my own stuff. But I wouldn't utilize anyone's painting services. Your infantry looked pretty good to me, but the vehicle freehand flies are awful. They should have paid you for the work they did on those.

I am actually in the works of setting up a second small project where they supply the miniatures and conversions and ship them together with my current project. I wasnt really that happy that I had to play QA for them but oh well. With the rest I am happy they look pretty cool and better than I could have done, in a pretty short time span.

Another question about the freehand, was that something you asked for?

 curran12 wrote:
Another question about the freehand, was that something you asked for?

The big fly yes the small one no, which they have since removed as per my request.

Just FYI; it is impossible to remove freehand cleanly (ie to a clean, smooth finish) without a strip and repaint.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I am being nice, just pointing out what Moff3l himself has admitted to. His expectations are already low, so he's inevitably going to be easier to please.

("I don't think its possible to do good shading on white cloaks so I asked for a flat white").

EDIT: nevermind. Forgot you were the sarcastic one.

I would argue that high or low are equally as bad, the point is if they are reasonable. If he has seen previous work, that quality is ok for the price for him, then his expectations of a repeat are reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterdyne wrote:
Just FYI; it is impossible to remove freehand cleanly (ie to a clean, smooth finish) without a strip and repaint.

Bs, depends entirely on the technic used.

An old scale modeller's trick is to gently buff it out with a paper coffee filter. Not sure that will work on acrylic though.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Are you satisfied? If you are, then everything is golden. If you aren't, it's further proof of BTP messing up
Automatically Appended Next Post:

This is wrong for ANY business, not just BTP.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I am being nice, just pointing out what Moff3l himself has admitted to. His expectations are already low, so he's inevitably going to be easier to please.

("I don't think its possible to do good shading on white cloaks so I asked for a flat white").

EDIT: nevermind. Forgot you were the sarcastic one.

I would argue that high or low are equally as bad, the point is if they are reasonable. If he has seen previous work, that quality is ok for the price for him, then his expectations of a repeat are reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterdyne wrote:
Just FYI; it is impossible to remove freehand cleanly (ie to a clean, smooth finish) without a strip and repaint.

Bs, depends entirely on the technic used.

I'd like to see you try. I'll stake 25 years' experience on it.

Buffing it out is effectively a strip - you will remove the base layer as well. In order to get a smooth finish you need to effectively sand the surface down and repaint. Incidentally, rather than coffee filters you can also try cigarette filters; they work reasonably well, but again, if you need a very smooth, clean finish you need to sand down the offending area.

Simple rule: You can add layers, but you can't take away.

winterdyne wrote:

Simple rule: You can add layers, but you can't take away.

I bet they followed that rule, and added some layers of the base vehicle color over what they had.

Yup; I'd guess so. With more streaky paint and bad drybrushing.

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Such as? Maybe Polish painters? I know they have pretty low wages over there. $10 per model would be an hour or less per model, I wouldn't actually expect much better than what he got while paying for an hour or less work per model.

Frontline gaming for one has a $7 per infantry, put you pay for the basing separately, which would put it at $8. Hell, they're level 2 model and base is $12, which looks significantly better. They're level 1 is on par with what we've seen in this thread, and looks cleaner too.

I'm sorry I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I didn't know about Frontline... but looking at their site level 1 is just block painted, with selective washing and drybrushing, most the model doesn't have any shading at all and SM eye lenses aren't painted at all. There's a whole heap of detail that hasn't been painted at all.

I'd say level 2 for Frontline is on par with what Moff got, though painted using different techniques than what Frontline uses (Frontline seems to like quick and rough edge highlights). The Frontline stuff has edge highlights... that look like they were painted by an 8 year old. There's some level 2 OSL in their portfolio that looks so awful you wonder why they did it at all. Level 3 is when they start to look like more than paint just being thrown at the model... but even on level 3 I can still pick out plenty of instances of poor paint coverage (another coat of paint would have fixed it) or very poorly done edge highlighting (taking more time to paint thin edge highlights or varying thickness instead of just slopping on a 1mm thick line on every edge).

I'm not saying Frontline is crap or bad value for money... I'm just saying when you pay someone to paint a model in less than an hour including priming and basing you're almost always going to get something that looks like it was painted by an amateur unless you have someone who can work very fast.

A quick look at Winter's stuff in this thread and the pricing guide would have put the total costs in similar ballparks, but I'd argue you'd get more value from Winter.

The cheapest thing in Winter's pricing guide looks to be $20 per model for a basic squad and $110 for a character on foot. I'm not arguing if you pay more you can get more (if you know where to look) and I'm not arguing that Winter is anything other than an awesome top level painter.

All I was saying was that moff seems to have gotten what he paid for and what he wanted.

Tenebre on the other hand got neither what he paid for nor what he wanted, that's the problem that started the whole debate.

I disagree with your assessment of Frontline, but I'm not going to get into a nuanced debate about the finer aspects of model painting in this thread. To me, the Frontline stuff just looks more finished and cleaner. Plus, it is technically cheaper at level 1, so there's that.

At the end of the day, I just don't find anything redeeming about this service over any others. We can go on about the details and comparisons between armies, but there's nothing inherently special or redeeming about BTP for what's paid. Admittedly, I'm a little biased in that I probably wouldn't get anything commissioned at the lowest level possible, personally. Please don't take anything I'm saying too seriously because of that, and I'm merely a curious observer who's almost had an army commissioned, but there are other services that offer comparable results for similar prices. Maybe the Polish guys are even cheaper, I don't know.

As for Winter, it is more expensive, but I guess I'd make an argument for value rather than cheapness.

I'll leave this to Moff now, and I thank him at least for coming through to the end.

 Blacksails wrote:
To me, the Frontline stuff just looks more finished and cleaner. Plus, it is technically cheaper at level 1, so there's that.

I'm surprised you think they look more finished, at level 1 they haven't even painted the lenses of SM helmets, if you look at the sample SW figures they haven't painted any of the gold detailing and there is no shading on the armour at all, not even a wash or a drybrush, they don't look finished at all to me, they look like what you throw together in an afternoon so you can play a game before you go back and actually pick out the details.

Level 1 looks largely unfinished, level 2 for Frontline look like similarly rushed jobs as moff's models to me.

 Blacksails wrote:
As for Winter, it is more expensive, but I guess I'd make an argument for value rather than cheapness.

In the context of a single model or a single squad I think that might be a valid argument... in the context of an entire force it's massively different price points. The difference between $800 and $1600 is huge and could determine whether you get an army commission painted at all. To me it's like comparing a Prius to a Tesla... comparisons can be made, but they're mostly moot if at the end of the day one is in your price range and the other isn't.

At the end of the day, I just don't find anything redeeming about this service over any others.

I don't disagree. I simply think moff got what he paid for... I think the comments people are making are going a bit too far.... attacking conversions that BTP didn't even do and talking about how crap the paintjob is when you've only paid them to do a quick and dirty paintjob anyway.

I think we should stick to attacking BTP for the bad things they've actually done like screwing over Tenebre, lack of communication with customers, having poor quality photos that don't show quality (or lack of), inconsistent quality from one job to the next, misrepresenting themselves, blaming the customer, etc etc. Rather than getting tied down discussing and attacking the quality of models that have simply been rushed through the door to satisfy a very small amount of money.

 M0ff3l wrote:
I am actually in the works of setting up a second small project where they supply the miniatures and conversions and ship them together with my current project. I wasnt really that happy that I had to play QA for them but oh well. With the rest I am happy they look pretty cool and better than I could have done, in a pretty short time span.

Are you serious? Even ignoring the mediocre quality of the painting how could you possibly give them another job after all the inexcusable failures you had to get corrected? FFS, you had to tell them "don't paint any detail on this" because you couldn't trust them to do it right. Why would you go back to BTP instead of using one of the other commission painters that don't have problems like that? Are you just too stubborn to admit that you were wrong about BTP, even if it means throwing away even more money?

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
I am actually in the works of setting up a second small project where they supply the miniatures and conversions and ship them together with my current project. I wasnt really that happy that I had to play QA for them but oh well. With the rest I am happy they look pretty cool and better than I could have done, in a pretty short time span.

Are you serious? Even ignoring the mediocre quality of the painting how could you possibly give them another job after all the inexcusable failures you had to get corrected? FFS, you had to tell them "don't paint any detail on this" because you couldn't trust them to do it right. Why would you go back to BTP instead of using one of the other commission painters that don't have problems like that? Are you just too stubborn to admit that you were wrong about BTP, even if it means throwing away even more money?

Exalted for truth. Good to know that I could likely get hired at Blue Table, with my mediocre level.

My god....that was just bad, I could do better then that, those bikers where.....Ugh

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
I am actually in the works of setting up a second small project where they supply the miniatures and conversions and ship them together with my current project. I wasnt really that happy that I had to play QA for them but oh well. With the rest I am happy they look pretty cool and better than I could have done, in a pretty short time span.

Are you serious? Even ignoring the mediocre quality of the painting how could you possibly give them another job after all the inexcusable failures you had to get corrected? FFS, you had to tell them "don't paint any detail on this" because you couldn't trust them to do it right. Why would you go back to BTP instead of using one of the other commission painters that don't have problems like that? Are you just too stubborn to admit that you were wrong about BTP, even if it means throwing away even more money?

There's really no point in trying to rationalize it. The OP seems pretty dead set on giving his money away to these people.

Think I might have to start a painting service...

Prime.
Basecoat.
Drybrush.
Dip.



...profit?

 Eggs wrote:
Think I might have to start a painting service...

Prime.
Basecoat.
Drybrush.
Dip.



...profit?

You're missing the part where your profit is sweet feth all

I thought dry brushing came after dipping

I know a few people who work as commission painters for huge historical armies that use a full miniature wash method and have satisfied customers. They're price per miniature is very low, but they only accept big projects. They're sort of bleeding into the historical toy soldier collector market though, and there a block painted glossed toy soldier can be $10-$25.



There are niches and branches of the miniature hobby where expectations are very different. For example, the type of people who want super hard gloss baked on enameled toy soldiers are interested in a certain tradition of toy soldier painting going back long before anyone alive today was born. Some of them would go apeshit over those glossed soldiers getting an oil wash nicely blacklining all the details while still keeping the traditional toy soldier aesthetic.

BTP though seems to be trying to operate in the fantasy/sci-fi miniature wargaming market where expectations are a lot different. They'd probably screw up trying to operate in the toy soldier market because you can't just decide the customer is wrong and change the paint scheme or do extra free hand work or whatever.
.

I think if you saw these paint jobs on an army placed opposite you for a game, you would be quite enthusiastic. In themselves they're not awful, they're competent and as a mass army probably look effective enough on the table, and are better than a huge number of armies that are semi-painted and unpainted. Not sure it's worth paying anything like $800 for though, the techniques used are pretty basic.

If I was going to throw money of that order at a commission I'd go the whole hog and ask Winterdyne to do a decent job.

There's a difference between 'basic' and badly done.

I do (generally) 4-5 colour transitions on everything (base, wash, highlight, highlight / extremes).

If I were to do a just two (base and wash) or three (base, highlight, dip), that'd make a fine low end tabletop standard.

In either case there's no excuse for painting over details, or executing a technique badly. The freehand on the OPs rhino is particularly bad. Not just from a professional standpoint, it's actually badly done, period. No excuse for for painting the black spot on exhausts off-shape and off-centre. No excuse for getting yellow paint from painting an eye over the brow and not fixing it.

And for presentation; I'm constantly surprised by the appalling photography. It took me about an hour to learn how to set my lights, backsheet and tripod to get a consistent result I could then pass through Photoshop for colour correction. I don't have an expensive DLSR. I can't honestly see the need for one.

So no, we're not comparing Prius to Tesla in commission services. We're comparing badly built go-kart to Ford (if I were to be the subject of the comparison). The likes of Matt Fontaine, Tommie Soule over at Golem, Bohun et al might be considered the Tesla / Lexus end of things.

Edit: whilst it's the OPs prerogative to throw more money at BTP, I don't actually think he got a good result even for what he paid. It can't really be improved on without repainting. It's not neat. It's amateur at best. Honestly, my 9-year old can paint better than that.

The excuse as I see it is you are trying to paint it faster. If you are trying to paint something within 1mm or 0.1mm, it takes vastly different amounts of time to do it. I'm sure that's the same reason Frontline gaming have huge chunky edge highlights, it's faster for them to do it that way.

Yes... I think the freehand is bad... but my point was that to do it better takes more time. It's not just a case of being sloppy or lacking skill, it's that to do it not sloppily takes more time and that time has to be paid for (unless you're a commission painter working on flexible hours, which is not something that is practical for a company like BTP).

I could paint a better freehand fly than that... but then I'm sure it would also take me longer to paint than what they were paid to do.

Comparing Prius to Tesla or comparing go-kart to Ford... the end result is the same, you're comparing apples to oranges

 Eggs wrote:
Think I might have to start a painting service...

Prime.
Basecoat.
Drybrush.
Dip.



...profit?

I think, despite what some of the commission painters have commented in this thread, there is actually a market for such a service (and no offence to these painters; they produce fantastic results).

There are plenty of people that are only interested in having an army that passes the "3 foot away" test. Some of these people are loathe to spend the time it would take them to accomplish this. Thanks to experience, a professional painter could achieve the same results much faster and more neatly.

For such customers paying for a service where models look immaculate under close scrutiny would be a great waste of money.

nareik wrote:

I think, despite what some of the commission painters have commented in this thread, there is actually a market for such a service (and no offence to these painters; they produce fantastic results).

Yes, clearly there is a market for a service that like this, considering we are having a conversation about a service that offers it and has no trouble finding plenty of people willing to pay for it.

In a way, it doesn't bother me because it makes no real impact on the way I do business as a commission painter. I offer commissions as a part time job and I only take jobs that I have time for and interest me because it isn't a full time job (I'm lucky that my regular job allows me plenty of free time) so I don't rely on painting things for people to pay my house note pay my bills, or feed my kids. Where it does hurt me, is that I make it pretty clear to any potential customer that I charge what I think my time is worth and that can be a shock to a person who sees companies like BTP who charge next to nothing (even though their work is of sub par quality, as evidenced by the pictures they share) because I'm not as cheap as they are.

However, in another way it really bothers me because there are painters out there who do paint as a full time job (and offer much better results than what we have seen here) and I feel like businesses like BTP undercut them, possibly to the point where they are no longer able to charge what they deserve for their work. Of course, this is my notion and I have no hard numbers to back it up, so if there are full time painters (like Winterdyne) please feel free to expand on that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
I am actually in the works of setting up a second small project where they supply the miniatures and conversions and ship them together with my current project. I wasnt really that happy that I had to play QA for them but oh well. With the rest I am happy they look pretty cool and better than I could have done, in a pretty short time span.

Are you serious? Even ignoring the mediocre quality of the painting how could you possibly give them another job after all the inexcusable failures you had to get corrected? FFS, you had to tell them "don't paint any detail on this" because you couldn't trust them to do it right. Why would you go back to BTP instead of using one of the other commission painters that don't have problems like that? Are you just too stubborn to admit that you were wrong about BTP, even if it means throwing away even more money?

Unless this entire thread and project are an attempt at a visible, positive response to Tenebre's thread.


Yeah... a bit tinfoil hat-y, but I have to be honest after the public pledge of a second commission, it's a possibility I can no longer rule out.

 M0ff3l wrote:

I am actually in the works of setting up a second small project where they supply the miniatures and conversions and ship them together with my current project. I wasnt really that happy that I had to play QA for them but oh well. With the rest I am happy they look pretty cool and better than I could have done, in a pretty short time span.

Glad to hear things worked out for you. Hope you enjoy the miniatures once you get them, and keep us posted on what you actually receive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormwall wrote:

I can't trust your word after you mastered sarcasm and ascended to another plane of existence, Tech.

Best not to trust anyone online, Stormwall. The Internet is really just a pit of liars, cheats and thieves, dragging others down with a staggeringly modern efficiency.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The excuse as I see it is you are trying to paint it faster. If you are trying to paint something within 1mm or 0.1mm, it takes vastly different amounts of time to do it. I'm sure that's the same reason Frontline gaming have huge chunky edge highlights, it's faster for them to do it that way.

Yes... I think the freehand is bad... but my point was that to do it better takes more time. It's not just a case of being sloppy or lacking skill, it's that to do it not sloppily takes more time and that time has to be paid for (unless you're a commission painter working on flexible hours, which is not something that is practical for a company like BTP).

I could paint a better freehand fly than that... but then I'm sure it would also take me longer to paint than what they were paid to do.

Comparing Prius to Tesla or comparing go-kart to Ford... the end result is the same, you're comparing apples to oranges

No; to do something like that (a solid black design) better takes no more time. (Unless they're *really* just bodging it, which given the half-arsed attempt at neatening it up I doubt.) It takes a touch more skill, the right mindset, and possibly a better brush. Mostly it's in the mind. If you're nervous and your hands are shaking because you're under the gun, then you'll feth it up.

My point, and what's aggravating me mostly is that if a job is to be done, it should be done properly, and should be quoted for to do the job properly.

This isn't even a good basic level of work. It's just fething messy. BTP are like an amateur carpet fitter trying to cut the carpet with a chainsaw 'cos it's faster. So what if they're cheap? (for the result, they're NOT).

If someone had posted in the P&M forums with these stating they're wanting to start a commission service, we'd all warn them off it for being gak. I'm not hypocritical enough to say something like this is in any way acceptable just because the studio churning it out has been established for a while.

for the same price or even a bit less the poland studios could do the same job and way better and it would save on shipping.

Since the OP is from Europe this makes no rational sense on any level. In the states, if the OP is dead set on paying more for shipping there are several other studios that can come close to this price for far better results.

Why would anyone go out of their way to use a service they self admit is not very good?

That is exactly the question I asked with my comparison to DoI.

Why one would follow up with a comission is beyond me... Objectively you can get better quality miniatures faster for the same price.
All however, especially the perception of the paintjob, is subjective.
I don't see what Moff3l sees.. but so does basically noone else in this thread.
I concur with Haight here - there is no logical reason without being biased towards BTP to continue using their services.

It is not my intention to attack Moff3l and his decisions; but I just cannot rationalize why he acts like he does.

There is a reason to continue with BTP, maybe a couple.

1. He is going to get a 'discount' in that they are going to ship the new order and this order together, and he is not paying for shipping of a new lot to them. If he is happy with their work, or happy they will fix what he has asked them to fix, the perceived savings may make it worth it for him.

2. By using BTP for the new lot he will have a consistent look to his army, something sending new stuff to a different painter would be difficult to do.

Ok, my english is not that great so i just want to ask so i understand everything in this thread.
1. a user with Name tenebre posted some terrible results from a BTP Commission.
2. another user opened this topic for BTP or in the Name of BTP to Show ugly marines that are supposed to Show hat BTP is great.
3. another user named techsoldaten is applauding him because he is also related to BTP cause no One can post such things?

If im right then i can go on Reading the Rest.
Please clarification for me.thanks

techsoldaten isn't applauding them.

All of those posts were heavily, deeply sarcastic.

Thanks... Couldnt believe two People Are so... Intelligent...

 winterwind85 wrote:
Thanks... Couldnt believe two People Are so... Intelligent...

This is what i do when i read a Techsoldat post: I pretend i'm John Stewart and read them.

You usually get the gist then.

winterdyne wrote:


The likes of Matt Fontaine, Tommie Soule over at Golem, Bohun et al might be considered the Tesla / Lexus end of things.

Faint praise indeed!

"Ahh Lexus, the Japanese Mercedes"

Heh, I drive a Zafira. I thought Lexus were nice? Ferrari, then. They're good. :-)

Only busting your beans, old boy! The sentiment came over perfectly but I've been on a Partridge binge recently and couldn't resist.

Winter, you make painting neatly sound so easy; genuinely making mistakes sounds almost inconceivable to you.

I'd love to have the chance to meet up with you sometime. I bet I have a bunch of terrible habits and it would do me a world of good to sit down and relearn all the basics. I make so many mistakes it takes me ages to even get a bad result and nigh impossible a good one!

As a professional painter do you do 1 to 1 tutorials or anything?

Or hire a venue and do a day basics course thing for a few of us? Maybe in Manchester?!

nareik wrote:
Winter, you make painting neatly sound so easy; genuinely making mistakes sounds almost inconceivable to you.

I'd love to have the chance to meet up with you sometime. I bet I have a bunch of terrible habits and it would do me a world of good to sit down and relearn all the basics. I make so many mistakes it takes me ages to even get a bad result and nigh impossible a good one!

As a professional painter do you do 1 to 1 tutorials or anything?

I've thought about it for sure, but I wouldn't call myself skilled so much as practiced. It'd feel a bit weird arranging putting myself forward as a tutor.
Feel free to drop me a PM about it though.

how much did this cost?

~$800 IIRC.

Unfortunately, this thread was fracked the moment it came into existence. The OP states that he has commissioned a paint project from BTP and will document the process to show that BTP is the great studio he/she believes them to be. The problem then becomes that the results (and perceptions) will be flawed. BTP certainly reads these threads and so the level of service we will be seeing is (most likely) non standard, in that the project will be moved to the head of the queue and most likely given more attention that a project would normally be given. Good for the OP but not great for a non-partial review of BTP. Likewise, the reaction from the readers of this thread will also be skewered in that a)they agree with what I said above or b) they are already set in their idea that BTP is a terrible company and will nit pick every detail of this project. The OP would have done himself a favor and delayed submitting this review thread until after the project was over if he wanted the results to be fairly shown to the community. I also find it strange that a person living in Europe would have an army commissioned in the US when there are AMAZING studios throughout the region that are more affordable and better talented thatn BTP. Just my 2 cents

As far as I read, the OP said they hoped to document an average customer interaction with BTP, I don't think OP ever claimed BTP was great.

We all might have our own impressions of what the OP was trying to achieve; perhaps he was trying to prove BTP are great, perhaps he was trying to give BTP a fair trial instead of a witch hunt. Regardless, it is important we don't mix up our impressions of what the OP was trying to achieve and what he actually stated.

That quibble aside, you make a good criticism; there was a chance BTP would be watching this thread, which means they might be tempted to over serve OP for his money.

The idea that future reviewers should wait until their service is complete is a good one; hopefully the idea that such reviews might happen can only courage services to give their best for the money they are paid.

A quick look at postage costs you're looking at 70-110 quid for post to Poland, whereas 80-90 to USA so they're actually fairly equitable.

I don't think it is so strange that a person living in the UK would commission an army in the USA when they specifically want to review the service of a company based in the US .

From the sounds of it you do get good value from Euro companies.

Something you haven't mentioned; consider the mother tongue of the British is English, an attribute most Americans also have.

When you want to give exacting directions to a painting service you might be reassured you're speaking the same language. I admit this could be a little insulting/ignorant opinion for someone to hold. It's not my opinion and as far as I can tell many hobbyists/services have high standards of English. Regardless, I suspect common language is something many people would consider when looking to make a commission when looking at foreign countries.

nareik wrote:

A quick look at postage costs you're looking at 70-110 quid for post to Poland, whereas 80-90 to USA so they're actually fairly equitable.
.

I paid roughly 25 euros for the shipping to them and their shipping to me is 25$.

Ah fair enough, for some reason I misremembered you as being from the UK as well.... no doubt a compliment on your excellent English!

Your postage was way cheaper to US than it would have been from UK! Perhaps my quick and dirty search didn't find the cheapest UK options, though.

i think the real question here is did this thread change any ones minds about using blue table painting as painting miniatures service ? looks like from the posts that moff is the only one that would use them again and is apparently. alot of people have posted here and tenebrehttp://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/618082.page thread with there views/opinions Have Your Miniatures Painted By Us
"Blue Table Painting is the most prolific and notable Wargame Miniature painting studio in the world. We have blazed a trail in a previously untamed industry. We are a pioneer of the emerging miniatures painting industry, and have brought reliability and professionalism to a service that barely even existed eight years ago. BTP is able to take on projects large and small with unmatched reliability. We are the only studio in the world who can handle epic-level projects with a tight turnaround, professionally handled from start to finish." this is posted under the store page on there site if moff feels like this is the service he got and this statement is true then all thats left too say is enjoy your models .

 Azreal13 wrote:
~$800 IIRC.

Wow, well its a lot of money for a fairly average job, do they have a price list or something as id genuinely like to know how it cost 800 dollars.

Cypher is cool though, not a great paint job but it works

Page 1 original post there is a breakdown of finances.

OP more or less designed the paint jobs. BTP just did the actual brushwork.

 Formosa wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
~$800 IIRC.

Wow, well its a lot of money for a fairly average job, do they have a price list or something as id genuinely like to know how it cost 800 dollars.

Cypher is cool though, not a great paint job but it works

My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

 M0ff3l wrote:
My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

Just curious, but is BTP giving you a discount of any sort for keeping up this blog?

 Absolutionis wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

Just curious, but is BTP giving you a discount of any sort for keeping up this blog?

Well seeing how shipping is 80 dollars one way to the Netherlands, and he said blue table painting was only charging him 30 dollars, we can assume at least a 50 dollar discount.

 Ustrello wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
My very frist post has their cost breakdown. Minus the quoted conversion work which they ended up doing for free (so it ended up being ~740$ which is still a lot of money ofcourse).

Just curious, but is BTP giving you a discount of any sort for keeping up this blog?

Well seeing how shipping is 80 dollars one way to the Netherlands, and he said blue table painting was only charging him 30 dollars, we can assume at least a 50 dollar discount.

They have an excell document they send you with their quote, which you can change things around in (like the level of paintjob and your region of shipping). When changing that shipping region to europe their excell sheet pops up 25$. So I dont think that this is a discount specially for me, its more likely that they have some sort of deal with a certain postal service where they ship in bulk for cheaper I imagine. Oh and by the way, this thread was started AFTER the project had started, because initially I wanted to post the entire process after it was done. However I got pushed into it which I have stated more than enough by now. The thing is, when I first mentioned my project with BTP on Tenebre's thread, they had already quoted me (including the 25$ shipping).

Also @ Absolutions: I have not mentioned the blog to BTP and have not heard anything from BTP about it. They have not asked me to take it down or offered me any discounts.

Do you know who they are using for european shipping as if done right and they label the costs etc wont you get hit with a massive import tax?

Motograter wrote:
Do you know who they are using for european shipping as if done right and they label the costs etc wont you get hit with a massive import tax?

I do not know what company they use. However I made sure to check how importing services works here. And the answer customs gave me was that if I send things like miniatures to be painted then that classifies as services and they cant import tax services. With the new project I set up there might be problems, but for this project in particular I cannot be charged with import taxes.

That sounds alright if customs are to be believed. In the UK we have some companies that hold your stuff to ransom. You lot maybe lucky lol