RiTides wrote: I'd give you UCM, but as far as top finishes I think Scourge have shown to have much more potential. Here are the Invasion 2015 results, for reference:
Spoiler:
I was just speaking from personal experience that local players found them slow and unforgiving... but I do think the speed of Shaltari and Scourge give them an edge (and if I wanted a human faction, I'd personally go with Resistance).
If just depends on what style you like to play - Shaltari are obviously extremely solid, Scourge are glass cannons and very dynamic, whereas PHR are extremely "tanky" and hard to kill. I like the differing styles and I think the new releases will likely level the playing field a bit, along with the tweak to Shaltari (which hurts, since they're my faction but is probably needed).
Eh, you can't just look at one tournament, take a look at the trends.
The TL;DR
Spoiler:
PHR sits in second place for number of tournament wins. In addition, PHR sits in second place (losing out against the Shaltari of course) as far as number of times they've appeared in the top 3 after the last round of errata.
This list is based off of tournaments where I was able to get full faction representation information and only includes tournaments of 6 or more players. Unfortunately it is a small representation, however I work with what I can get.
PHR gets played a lot and along with being tanky, Space marines is probably an apt comparison.
PHR are looking more awesome with each new release...
it is getting harder to resist picking up some of these minis to do little, action-packed, dioramas...
UCM are not quite grabbing me for DZC, but their ships for Dropfleet are looking amazing, especially the big ones...
i look forward to seeing more previews of this new game...
i've been looking, but haven't found anything official...
are there any alternative schemes for PHR or UCM???
jah-joshua wrote: PHR are looking more awesome with each new release...
it is getting harder to resist picking up some of these minis to do little, action-packed, dioramas...
UCM are not quite grabbing me for DZC, but their ships for Dropfleet are looking amazing, especially the big ones...
i look forward to seeing more previews of this new game...
i've been looking, but haven't found anything official...
are there any alternative schemes for PHR or UCM???
cheers
jah
Do you mean color schemes? There's several. The main rulebook gives examples and justifications of maybe a dozen different paint schemes you can use for each army (Resistance gets that treatment in the expansion). Personally my UCM are desert camo (ala GDI from Command and Conquer), and my Resistance are going to use an Alpine camo scheme (ala Nod from C&C 1).
thanks...
it looks like there are some nice alternate color schemes in the rulebook...
some fun camo variations on the PHR and UCM models, that look like they would be a treat to paint...
nobody wrote: you can't just look at one tournament, take a look at the trends.
PHR sits in second place for number of tournament wins. In addition, PHR sits in second place (losing out against the Shaltari of course) as far as number of times they've appeared in the top 3 after the last round of errata.
This list is based off of tournaments where I was able to get full faction representation information and only includes tournaments of 6 or more players. Unfortunately it is a small representation, however I work with what I can get.
That is a very interesting link! But I'm not really sure if that is persuasive (to me personally) since the events listed are so small - the only event won by PHR of more than 8 players was one where it made up almost half the field (6 out of 14 players).
In that respect, Space Marines is a good comparison... but with tournies that small, it doesn't really prove out faction strength - I mean, I won an X-wing tourney at MechaniCon last year after only having played it twice, but that's just because it was a 6 person event! It wouldn't point to anything about the strength of my list because the field was so small - and 14 of these 22 events have 8 or less players.
It's still a really impressive list just not sure if it can help point to non-Shaltari faction strength more than even a single bigger event...
On that note - I looked and couldn't find the Invasion 2014 results, and I don't see it on this list either - did they never post them?
nobody wrote: you can't just look at one tournament, take a look at the trends.
PHR sits in second place for number of tournament wins. In addition, PHR sits in second place (losing out against the Shaltari of course) as far as number of times they've appeared in the top 3 after the last round of errata.
This list is based off of tournaments where I was able to get full faction representation information and only includes tournaments of 6 or more players. Unfortunately it is a small representation, however I work with what I can get.
That is a very interesting link! But I'm not really sure if that is persuasive (to me personally) since the events listed are so small - the only event won by PHR of more than 8 players was one where it made up almost half the field (6 out of 14 players).
In that respect, Space Marines is a good comparison... but with tournies that small, it doesn't really prove out faction strength - I mean, I won an X-wing tourney at MechaniCon last year after only having played it twice, but that's just because it was a 6 person event! It wouldn't point to anything about the strength of my list because the field was so small - and 14 of these 22 events have 8 or less players.
It's still a really impressive list just not sure if it can help point to non-Shaltari faction strength more than even a single bigger event...
On that note - I looked and couldn't find the Invasion 2014 results, and I don't see it on this list either - did they never post them?
I'll dig them up, but Hawk had lost the faction breakdown so I never included it.
Here's the link (they hadn't called it Invasion). The top 5 armies are on the next to last page and were Shaltari/UCM/Scourge/Shaltari/PHR.
And I'm cool with that, the small sample size isnt ideal but I've found a lot of tournaments just don't like posting their data. I'm constantly looking for more data.
Those things are beautiful. I keep saying this, but I really, really hope they fold in the differences in aesthetics from the ships into the ground units over time. The Scourge ground units have their own charm, but these ships and the UCM stuff are a step up in terms of design sense.
Vertrucio wrote: Those things are beautiful. I keep saying this, but I really, really hope they fold in the differences in aesthetics from the ships into the ground units over time. The Scourge ground units have their own charm, but these ships and the UCM stuff are a step up in terms of design sense.
I can see the similarity between scourge dropfleet and dropzone... UCM however look entirely different to me and I absolutely dont like that (IMO their Dropfleet designs are clearly superior).
Forgive me if I missed it, but the full twenty-minute Dropfleet Discussion / Shooting demo (we had a short clip of it previously) has been released by DZC Commenter.
If they have at least as much variety as the DZC plastics, then it won't be so bad. If the fleets are only a couple of plastic ships and the rest resin...there's this new Halo game.
If they have at least as much variety as the DZC plastics, then it won't be so bad. If the fleets are only a couple of plastic ships and the rest resin...there's this new Halo game.
The Scourge and UCM starter ships (the cruisers) are supposed to be modular with several variants capable of being made in regards to each. That is at least what was said on the Hawk Forum.
As I understand it only the starter UCM v Scourge will be plastic (and presumably expansion kits based on those ships) The starters will contain small/medium sized vessels and will be based on a modular design that allows you to build a variety of ship classes from a single kit (similar to Imperial and Chaos cruiser kits from BFG). All other ships (larger/more specialized ones particularly) will be released in resin, including (as I understand it) the PHR and Shaltari ships.
If thats a dealbreaker, then I guess go enjoy Halo. Personally, I plan on playing both, though Im less interested in Halo because it seems rather stupidly expensive.
What's wrong with Hawks pricing? I play alot of different game systems and have never thought Hawks was out of line with what I would expect to pay for the models.
I found that to be a pretty helpful rundown for what the game would actually cost. As with most fleet games, we can anticipate it being much cheaper. From the earlier video Interview, it looked like 1 big bad ship, 6-8 cruisers and 4-6 escorts would be sufficient.
I believe they said that 2 starters and a battleship or dreadnought would get you tourney legal.
Without price points, its difficult to make any judgements right now.
Dropzone is kind of stupidly cheap compared to a lot of the other games Ive played. It might just be perception but between cheap plastic starter boxes that actually form a solid core to your army and $15 blisters of specialist atuff that you dont need a ton of ita a pretty good deal. The only items I find expensive for what you get are the heavy dropships at $30.
Halo Fleet Battles is expensive IMO. The starter is $140, and then expansion sets are either $40 or $50 depending on which one they are. While you get a considerable amount of stuff for the money (iirc the starter alone contains 49 ships for 2 factions) its kind of a steep buy in IMO, especially since its supposed to be a "mass fleet battles" type game that needs a pretty considerably large amount of models to be played correctly.
Halo Fleet Battles is expensive IMO. The starter is $140, and then expansion sets are either $40 or $50 depending on which one they are. While you get a considerable amount of stuff for the money (iirc the starter alone contains 49 ships for 2 factions) its kind of a steep buy in IMO, especially since its supposed to be a "mass fleet battles" type game that needs a pretty considerably large amount of models to be played correctly.
While I agree with you that $140 is too high a price point for a starter, calling it stupidly expensive is IMO a big exaggeration. You yourself said it contains alot of models for that price and is meant as a mass battle fleet game. "Stupidly" expensive would be accurate if neither of those was true. A skirmish fleet game that sells you 49 ships* or a fleet game that has only 10 ships total for bith factions combined would be stupidly expensive.
*the 49 ships number is padded significantly by 27 UNSC frigates that are smaller than any xwing fighter.
If they have at least as much variety as the DZC plastics, then it won't be so bad. If the fleets are only a couple of plastic ships and the rest resin...there's this new Halo game.
The Scourge and UCM starter ships (the cruisers) are supposed to be modular with several variants capable of being made in regards to each. That is at least what was said on the Hawk Forum.
That's good news. I love being able to convert or kitbash entire fleets of plastic ships.
Depending on prices, I may pick up one or two super-sweet resin ships, but I am not a big fan of the medium and will purchase plastic before anything else.
chaos0xomega wrote: Dropzone is kind of stupidly cheap compared to a lot of the other games Ive played. It might just be perception but between cheap plastic starter boxes that actually form a solid core to your army and $15 blisters of specialist atuff that you dont need a ton of ita a pretty good deal. The only items I find expensive for what you get are the heavy dropships at $30.
Oddly enough I thought DZC was expensive until I bought an army for it.
With mini market's pricing and splitting a starter with a friend I got a tremendously huge UCM army for under $150 in the end
Price was a very common concern raised when DZC came out until they got the plastic starter (and later plastic faction boxes). They did a good job with the plastic sets and used them for the right reasons.
The individual resin blisters are a little expensive, but you don't need as much stuff to play as say, GW games.
Plus as Warboss has said, both the starter box and individual starter sets have been well put together and contain stuff you will actually use unlike say, GW batallion boxes.
Flashman wrote: The individual resin blisters are a little expensive, but you don't need as much stuff to play as say, GW games.
Plus as Warboss has said, both the starter box and individual starter sets have been well put together and contain stuff you will actually use unlike say, GW batallion boxes.
My UCM consists of two starter sets and 5 blister packs so about £150. I sold the starter set scourge for £30.
str00dles1 wrote: Not sure if its a secrete sale or some glitch, but MiniatureMarket has starters for DZC for 15 bucks, and the large 30$+ vehicles for 15$
Probalby the single best time ever to get into it
Glitch? I immediately went looking, and nothing was listed at those prices.
16 mins · Edited ·
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We do apologize, however, we have experienced a system error that has affected our pricing and inventory on many of our products. For this reason our website is currently offline as we work to have the issue corrected as quickly as possible. We appreciate your patience and understanding while the site is offline.
Yea, it was a glitch. I paid for it all a bit ago and it went through. I checked after seeing your post and got "Order #100506792 - System Error - Pending Refund"
A bit disapointed they didnt honor it, and judging by how much stock# I was seeing vanish rapidly, they are going to be giving back a lot of refunds
I thought it was smaller than that (class type I mean, I thought it was an actual dropship)? In any case, the ship shown in that image, based on what we know, resembles more a cruiser or battleship (supposedly much larger vessels) in shape and form.
It would, if Hawk was using a 3-up production process. They very well could be, but I doubt it considering its a somewhat archaic method of producing tools for plastic injection molding, particularly when theyre designing the models in a CAD application that they can then produce molds from directly.
NoggintheNog wrote: This weeks Beats of War weekender has Dave from Hawk and Andy Chambers on talking Dropfleet.
Lots of good information
Spoiler:
The relevant bit starts at around the 12 minute mark.
Man, I'll consider myself doing pretty well if I can ever get UP TO the painting skill that guy is at when he hasn't painted in 3 years.
Also, I hate everything I've seen about the Scourge in DZC, but those DFC scourge ships combined with that paintjob are so pants-tighteningly awesome, it's going to be hard not to throw my money at their kickstarter something fierce.
Look how different the stands are and how much better the ships fit on them now - that is excellent! That really bothered me before - seemed like a deal breaker for a game where every ship would be unstable, and now they seem very sturdy (with also some info on the bases themselves).
DFC is looking to be incredible! Really awesome to know that the Scourge fleet was by far the most difficult to design in CAD, and that the cruiser's file size was by far greater than the entire UCM's fleet combined! (Dem polygons tho.)
Also, Dave's painting is still on point - I don't recall ever having seen an iridescent paint job on a mini before.
Shut up and take my money. It appreciate that it sounds like a limited KS for the sake of retailers... but man would I have thrown a mountain of money at this one.
The minis definitely look nice and the rules sound intriguing. I jumped the gun and acquired Halo instead in the meantime and I'd be hesitant to get into two spaceship games with no community near me at the same time so I'll have to reevaluate when the KS is up. I do like what they're doing with the scourge models unlike with DZC (CD rack of doom!)
Yeah, same here warboss, but because it's a Kickstarter and plastic I'm expecting the delivery estimate for this to be a ways out - plenty of time to compare (especially if there's a pledge manager).
The models look great (especially the UCM in my mind) but the main thing for me is the gameplay - DzC has a lot of neat ideas, but for our group it didn't come together well enough into a fun game with good replayability to keep folks playing it. So more than whether or not the rules are novel... I'd really like to see if it looks fun to play.
RiTides wrote: Yeah, same here warboss, but because it's a Kickstarter and plastic I'm expecting the delivery estimate for this to be a ways out - plenty of time to compare (especially if there's a pledge manager).
The models look great (especially the UCM in my mind) but the main thing for me is the gameplay - DzC has a lot of neat ideas, but for our group it didn't come together well enough into a fun game with good replayability to keep folks playing it. So more than whether or not the rules are novel... I'd really like to see if it looks fun to play.
If you watch the BoW video they say delivery will only be about six months out. The vast majority of all work is done, and the plastics production is ready barring capitol investment.
That's great, but is pretty much what I meant - and means I don't need to really think about this until AdeptiCon (if I decide to wait until retail - which makes sense since I want to see more on gameplay).
If they do offer a pledge manager I'll be tempted to put in a small pledge, though, even just for the rules to see how it plays.
RiTides wrote: That's great, but is pretty much what I meant - and means I don't need to really think about this until AdeptiCon (if I decide to wait until retail - which makes sense since I want to see more on gameplay).
If they do offer a pledge manager I'll be tempted to put in a small pledge, though, even just for the rules to see how it plays.
It will be after Adepticon. I would have thought that they would have been aiming for a Salute release in March but apparently it will be May/June before the plastics will be ready.
This looks like it may well be a revolutionary game with its novel, but extremely thematic, targeting mechanics and its 4 'levels' of play (although I'm not sure how ground combat will be handled in game). I think this will be my first ever little man related kickstarter.
Yeah, already budgeted for 2 starter sets for 2 different fleets, just to make sure I have a full army out of the gate. Then I should have enough by the time it launches to also pledge up for one of the early limited sculpts for the flagships.
When you consider that they're really trying to put a lot of the core ships into the starter boxes, it'll be a good way to get the game going faster than DZC did.
How are you budgeting for something you dont know the cost of (caveat: havent been able to watch the video since I mostly dakka at work). Also whats this about limited ed flagships??
Also, its my understanding that they would be kickstarting a 2 palyer starter set, is this no longer the case (Id actually prefer it if it was individual fleet starters instead of a 2 player, not interested in scourge, only UCM and presumably PHR once they show off what they look like.
I've budgeted a large sum of money in general, based on the idea that these being starters will probably cost around DZC starters, so $55-$100 retail.
The primary purpose of the kickstarter is to get the plastic 2 player starter box and starter fleets into production. UCM and Scourge will be the two in the 2 player starter, with Shaltari and PHR as stretch goals.
They also have kickstarter exclusive sculpts of ships not in the starters, but these will be functionally the same as the same ships released as normal sculpts later. In the video they specifically mention a Battlecruiser miniature, usable as a flagship, that's not part of the starters. This battlecruiser has the firepower of a battleship, but lacks the hull points, and the KS exclusive model has all its guns on the bottom of the ship instead of spread top and bottom.
So yeah, if you wanted individual starters, they've got you covered so long as they hit those stretch goals. I'm getting into Scourge and PHR, so I'm hoping they do have individual starters for all.
I wonder if, unlike the DZC starters, they plan to create the sprue for DFC to be much more modular, individual ships and their options on a sprue, instead of a starter box specific sprue. This way they can use the same sprues on retail shelves.
We also know that the frigates, the smallest ships, are getting a lot more options.
I wonder if, unlike the DZC starters, they plan to create the sprue for DFC to be much more modular, individual ships and their options on a sprue, instead of a starter box specific sprue. This way they can use the same sprues on retail shelves.
The UCM cruiser sprue can apparently make 35 ship options (although a lot of them will probably be quite minor variations), from those 35 about "15-20" will be actual pointed ship classes. The weapon systems known about so far are railgun turrets of various sizes, burn through lasers (basically keep rolling damage until you fail to hit), orbital bombardment weapons and 'close action weapons' basically things like missile launchers which can do massive damage from short range but which can be intercepted by counter measures.
Frigates will be getting a plastic box as well although everything else is resin. By the sound of things each faction will be 2 boxes of plastics, a resin battleship and a resin mothership (a really big troopship), at least on release.
Kickstarter exclusive flagships will be just that, not available anywhere else. The UCM one is a battlecruiser (a cruiser hull with battleship sized railguns) which IIRC also has strikecraft capability.
What I really like (beside the modular nature of the kits and the hard scifi game-play elements) is that a lot of the model and rules work is already done. The UCM and Scourge fleets just need the capital investment for plastic tooling. Also extremely interested to see the PHR and Shaltari designs.
Vertrucio wrote: I wonder if, unlike the DZC starters, they plan to create the sprue for DFC to be much more modular, individual ships and their options on a sprue, instead of a starter box specific sprue. This way they can use the same sprues on retail shelves.
Kickstarter exclusive flagships will be just that, not available anywhere else. The UCM one is a battlecruiser (a cruiser hull with battleship sized railguns) which IIRC also has strikecraft capability.
Just wanted to make sure we're giving the right information. Because they say pretty clearly that the KS exclusive Battlecruiser is just for a special sculpt, the ship type itself will be available for all as a different sculpt.
What I really like (beside the modular nature of the kits and the hard scifi game-play elements) is that a lot of the model and rules work is already done. The UCM and Scourge fleets just need the capital investment for plastic tooling. Also extremely interested to see the PHR and Shaltari designs.
What I really like (beside the modular nature of the kits and the hard scifi game-play elements) is that a lot of the model and rules work is already done. The UCM and Scourge fleets just need the capital investment for plastic tooling. Also extremely interested to see the PHR and Shaltari designs.
What are the 'hard scifi game-play elements'?
I'm not sure what that term actually means but I think he's referring to the more SCI-fi parts as in the rules for space combat are rooted a bit more in science about how things may be done in space as opposed to the sailing ships in space of BFG. For example, there is no maximum range in space (projectiles keep going) but space is also vast and empty so finding the enemy is key. The targeting mechanic in the game is based on how hard it is to find that enemy ship in space rather than the limitations of the weapon. If you can see it, you can shoot it. Doing things like gunning your engines, firing your weapons, etc increase your energy signature and make you easier to spot.
I wonder if, unlike the DZC starters, they plan to create the sprue for DFC to be much more modular, individual ships and their options on a sprue, instead of a starter box specific sprue. This way they can use the same sprues on retail shelves.
The UCM cruiser sprue can apparently make 35 ship options (although a lot of them will probably be quite minor variations), from those 35 about "15-20" will be actual pointed ship classes.
Im going to be throwing a lot of money at this kickstarter
What I really like (beside the modular nature of the kits and the hard scifi game-play elements) is that a lot of the model and rules work is already done. The UCM and Scourge fleets just need the capital investment for plastic tooling. Also extremely interested to see the PHR and Shaltari designs.
What are the 'hard scifi game-play elements'?
I'm not sure what that term actually means but I think he's referring to the more SCI-fi parts as in the rules for space combat are rooted a bit more in science about how things may be done in space as opposed to the sailing ships in space of BFG. For example, there is no maximum range in space (projectiles keep going) but space is also vast and empty so finding the enemy is key. The targeting mechanic in the game is based on how hard it is to find that enemy ship in space rather than the limitations of the weapon. If you can see it, you can shoot it. Doing things like gunning your engines, firing your weapons, etc increase your energy signature and make you easier to spot.
I like the scanning range + energy signature mechanic. As well as things like orbital decay, countermeasures affecting close-action weaponry, atmosphere being like soup, and being able to do things like running silent to avoid detection. Hard Scifi is a general term used to denote elements that are based on our current body of scientific knowledge and what we think is plausible.
I wonder if, unlike the DZC starters, they plan to create the sprue for DFC to be much more modular, individual ships and their options on a sprue, instead of a starter box specific sprue. This way they can use the same sprues on retail shelves.
The UCM cruiser sprue can apparently make 35 ship options (although a lot of them will probably be quite minor variations), from those 35 about "15-20" will be actual pointed ship classes.
Im going to be throwing a lot of money at this kickstarter
While I'm not trying to discourage you from buying in (it looks quite nice), I'm guessing from watching the BOW video that the 35 ship options while technically true is misleading a bit. From what I saw, you could add 3 turrets to to top of a cruiser, something underslung under the front, and possibly something on the back. Technically, that is 49! optional configurations but the reality is that it'll probably be 3-4 most likely.
warboss wrote: Technically, that is 49! optional configurations but the reality is that it'll probably be 3-4 most likely.
Yes but if Hawk are looking at creating points values for over a dozen classes its safe to say that they are sufficiently different to be worth the bother.
I wonder if, unlike the DZC starters, they plan to create the sprue for DFC to be much more modular, individual ships and their options on a sprue, instead of a starter box specific sprue. This way they can use the same sprues on retail shelves.
The UCM cruiser sprue can apparently make 35 ship options (although a lot of them will probably be quite minor variations), from those 35 about "15-20" will be actual pointed ship classes.
Im going to be throwing a lot of money at this kickstarter
While I'm not trying to discourage you from buying in (it looks quite nice), I'm guessing from watching the BOW video that the 35 ship options while technically true is misleading a bit. From what I saw, you could add 3 turrets to to top of a cruiser, something underslung under the front, and possibly something on the back. Technically, that is 49! optional configurations but the reality is that it'll probably be 3-4 most likely.
They all share the same base fuselage. But if you watch closely you can see that there are many more modular bits than just turrets. Burn through laser, orbital bombardement, carrier capacity, turrets and also "leaving empty" can be seen in the video. Im sure there can be even more, like scanner arrays and so on. That indicates to me that there are way more options than just "change 1-3 turrets". 10+ may sound about right.
Has there been much coverage of Dropfleet outside of the BoW video? I haven't seen anything else and since the KS is supposed to launch in less than two weeks I would expect more hype...
Mymearan wrote: Has there been much coverage of Dropfleet outside of the BoW video? I haven't seen anything else and since the KS is supposed to launch in less than two weeks I would expect more hype...
My understanding is that the main guy behind it is on his honeymoon right now and the other employees are gunshy about releasing info he may not want released yet.
Presumably this is from the new newsletter, I got it from another news site.
The 2 Player Starter Set for Dropfleet Commander will again contain our two main protagonists, The UCM and the Scourge, and will again include all the scenery you need to play a starter set game with. Visuals for the content of this 2 Player Starter Set will be coming on the Kickstarter. Our plan is that the set will include:
The Full Dropfleet Commander Rulebook, and Fast Play Sheets,
UCM and Scourge Frigate and Cruiser Sprues, (with construction guides),
Innovative Dropfleet Commander flight stands,
Double sided fold out map,
City markers,
Token sheet,
Tapemeasure and Dice
We will also have the rulebook along our choice either a UCM or Scourge Starter Fleet box, available as a pledge level.
Here's hoping they can get the funding for their HIPS starter fleet boxes for the other factions as well otherwise I don't think the game will take of as good as it could have.
That post is definitely the news letter. Also they stated that the more crowdfunding they get it will enable them to produce more plastic starter sets of the other factions on launch date. Once a certain milestone is reached it will open up a new faction,
overtyrant wrote: Here's hoping they can get the funding for their HIPS starter fleet boxes for the other factions as well otherwise I don't think the game will take of as good as it could have.
Unless they put a crazy high goal, they're almost guaranteed to make their funding target!
Well, if the starters are priced right, of course.
And even if they have a crazy high goal AND their starters aren't priced right, they're still probably fund!
Looking forward to seeing what they come up with even if I in all likelihood won't buy in. I got some Halo stuff in the meantime to work on and even with the Halo name attached so far haven't convinced anyone to buy in as well locally.
Halo name's 'quality' is probably a lot less than Spartan Games' mixed reputation, as far as veteran gamers go. There's also only so much you can do with such a limited IP.
I for one, know a lot more Dropzone players than say, Terminator Genesis Players (zero), or Firestorm Players.
Killionaire wrote: Halo name's 'quality' is probably a lot less than Spartan Games' mixed reputation, as far as veteran gamers go. There's also only so much you can do with such a limited IP.
I for one, know a lot more Dropzone players than say, Terminator Genesis Players (zero), or Firestorm Players.
True but that is pretty varied and anecdotal. I know of zero DZC players and Terminator players in my store... but two brothers who (unsuccessfully) demo Firestorm every month or two to drum up interest.
Halo is more or less dead in quite some parts of Europe and the same goes fpr other Spartan games. Not that people did not want to get the game, but their current policies keep many gamers from getting in or expanding their armies.
A realistic goal for the KS would be 200K, i.e. that´s how much a starter box costs to produce.
I think it's a 7 day free trial although I may be confusing that with miniwargaming (which they said they based their backstage thing after in a video a while back).
Not sure I like the fact that the special limited Battlecruiser is tied to specific tiers.
Agreed, that's a bit crappy. It's close to Christmas, so funds are tight. All depends on how much that tier costs in pledges... It wouldn't have been so bad, buy two copies of the game to get the limited cruiser? Hmmm
Also
This gives two players the option to have a much larger fleet to start with, with each player getting all of the game accessories found in the 2 Player Starter Set
is jarring, considering you only get 1 limited cruiser?
Also - just found out that Captain (Limited) tier will have a maximum number of backers!
Remember that it's just a limited battlecruiser sculpt, so it's only an aesthetically different battlecruiser. Anyone can buy and use the normal battlecruiser model when it comes out. So, no one is missing out on using battlecruisers, and this one isn't special in any way rules-wise.
I may be looking to split the two-starter-set pledge with a Scourge player. That'd let us both get the basics (rulebook / tokens / mat / etc) plus two sets of the starter ships for a nice sized fleet. Apparently there might be more bonuses and I think they should for sure be unlocked for that level. Any takers from US-based Scourge lovers?
Duskland wrote: Not sure I like the fact that the special limited Battlecruiser is tied to specific tiers.
They changed their plans somewhat regarding that kickstarter exclusive battlecruiser. It's still tied to specific tiers but those are not limited anymore:
1. Regarding the UCM Kickstarter Only Battlecruiser - this is now no longer going to be limited (in terms of the quantity that are available on the Kickstarter). However, due to the nature of what it is, it will be only available (as a reward) with the Captain and Admiral Pledge levels, and only from this Kickstarter Campaign.
more on battlecruisers:
3. Going back to Battlecruisers, we are happy to confirm that if we are successful in hitting our initial goal, then we are hoping to unlock Kickstarter Exclusive Battlecruisers to go along with each race that is on the Kickstarter. These will be available as Bolt-ons that can be added to any pledge.
launch date (less than 24 hours left):
The plan is currently for a launch in the early Afternoon (UK time), but we will of course send a message out when the Campaign is up.
Really looking forward to drop fleet the minis look great just worried about the price and the release schedule as hawk wargames has not been great on either front in the past.
I am so temped to let this be the first kick starter I back but I would need to know they where going to have a good release schedule.
Probably worth noting that Hawk stated on their forums that they are targeting 2pm gmt as launch time now.
I'm tempted despite swearing off further KS. Really depends on pricing , if it's not equivalent to 20% discount or some awesome freebies then I'll wait and keep my money.
I will buy this KS. They're a now more established company with a proven record of actually delivering a product. This product is a modest offering as far as KS goes (just making core sets for 2-4 races in plastic), from a company that's already very successfully delivered plastic (the plastic starters are of great quality, aside from the meh teeny plastic infantry).
This is very different from standard 'Fund our totally new game, from a company that has no experience in making minis games!' places with huge stretch goals promising big bux savings, and ending up giving you a Sedition Wars or Relic Knights type mess. Or worse yet, a goddamn Robotech failure.
I trust in Hawk, since it's actually an extremely MODERN miniatures company and has hit the mark on everything thus far.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Probably worth noting that Hawk stated on their forums that they are targeting 2pm gmt as launch time now.
I'm tempted despite swearing off further KS. Really depends on pricing , if it's not equivalent to 20% discount or some awesome freebies then I'll wait and keep my money.
Linky? If so, that suits me better!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Confirmed by Simon @ Hawk:
An update on the launch time, we are aiming for 2pm GMT!
The ships are amazing, but what has won me over is the new basing they showed off in the BoW interview. That is such a key component and it looks like they nailed it! Looking forward to seeing updated pics of hopefully all the ships on them once the campaign launches.
zedmeister wrote: I wonder if they've only just submitted this to Kickstarter for approval. In which case, it'll be next week when it launches!
Maybe they forgot to change their clocks for winter?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are just finalising the last few things - an update about launch will be coming out soon. Thanks for your patience! Kind regards, The Hawk Wargames Team
Wow.. some serious backers there as the 500 GBP pledges are all gone. WHile I like the ship designs, I think the similarities in all those cruisers might lead to some confusion in game with the models.
Nah, just like with anything, you get used to it. From a distance a bolter looks like a flamer looks like a meltagun looks like a plasma gun to a generic shlub, until you get used to it.
Pledged at 110. Those models are too beautiful and I'm a fan of Andy Chambers (coughcoughSSTcoughcough)
Prediction: it'll make 500k and be called a failure, like Warpath kickstarter
I doubt it (that it'll be called a failure). Mantic has earned alot of both praise and flak for how they run their kickstarters/business. I don't see the same ire towards Hawk. I'm thinking this will top the $1 million dollar mark personally but that just may be my bias showing (despite the fact that I don't plan on pledging beyond $1.00 and will wait till retail).
From the Beasts of War interviews they have a clear plan of what they want to do, but also what they don't want to do via KS (and that they don't want to fund anything too far out in the dev process),
so don't be surprised if they say We've Finished at some point rather than just throwing up more and more stretch goals
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: From the Beasts of War interviews they have a clear plan of what they want to do, but also what they don't want to do via KS (and that they don't want to fund anything too far out in the dev process),
so don't be surprised if they say We've Finished at some point rather than just throwing up more and more stretch goals
I'd much prefer more companies do the "ok we're done" approach than overpromise and have to do multiple waves, cutting into their shipping budget and annihilating the quality of the original items produced. aka being a victim of their own success
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: From the Beasts of War interviews they have a clear plan of what they want to do, but also what they don't want to do via KS (and that they don't want to fund anything too far out in the dev process),
so don't be surprised if they say We've Finished at some point rather than just throwing up more and more stretch goals
I'll have to watch that later tonight. I'm curious to see what Dave/Hawk will say regarding this. If I hadn't already dipped my toe into the space combat pool for the first time in over a decade with Halo, I'd be picking up the captain pledge as well.
I'm a little confused on the difference between Frigates and Fleet Carriers. Is there only one configuration for Fleet Carriers, and the sprue only lets you build 2 of each (rather than 4 of one type)?
I suspect based on how many common parts you see, you likely will be able to build multiple of each cruiser type per sprue. For UCM it's quite obvious, as the differences (smooth upper hull vs turreted vs laser), (laser vs turreted lower hull), (bare vs fighter vs turreted aft section) plus various bits that bolt into the turret slots means they're fairly modular.
RiTides wrote: I'm a little confused on the difference between Frigates and Fleet Carriers. Is there only one configuration for Fleet Carriers, and the sprue only lets you build 2 of each (rather than 4 of one type)?
RiTides, it looks like the carriers are made from the Frigate sprue, as that is where they have it displayed. Same for both races in the starter, the carriers are shown to be buildable variants from the frigate sprues. I think that they're pushing that you make 2 carriers in the starter set per side because that is "how they envision the game being played." As in, they are emphasizing the space-ground integration piece as one of the in-game objectives from what I've read. So, if you got 2 starters, you could have 6 cruisers, 6 frigates and just 2 carriers, so that you deliver troops into the atmosphere but have a large space battle fleet too.
This is all conjecture without having seen the rules. I really think this game will have some great mechanics. Like the models so far!
That's a good point: Assault Carriers (not to be confused with space fighter carriers) are atmosphere lander ships, used to take objectives (which are apparently going to be cities on the map or something). So you probably will absolutely need some, just like how you need some infantry in Dropzone.
So it's not unlikely that some of the frigates on the set will be locked as assault carriers instead of the other types, since you'll need those anyway.
RiTides wrote: I'm a little confused on the difference between Frigates and Fleet Carriers. Is there only one configuration for Fleet Carriers, and the sprue only lets you build 2 of each (rather than 4 of one type)?
The small frigate sized carriers were called 'Strike Carriers', while its possible that the name has simply been changed I think that Fleet Carriers will be the Cruiser sized ones.
The 2 frigates on the right are Strike Carriers while the Cruiser on the left has launch bays.
Yeah Fleet Carriers are cruiser sized, Seattle Class apparently.
The first stretch goal has been announced, Shaltari at £130k, so in about half an hour then I think I will stick to the £60 level, there hasn't been a huge amount of interest locally so there isn't much point in spending a lot on this.
One add on I would be interested in is a PVC mat as the paper ones will never last.
The list is 6 Cruisers, 4 Frigates, 4 Fleet Carriers in the starter box.
That is 3 Cruisers, 2 Frigates, and 2 Fleet Carriers per side - 7 ships, the same as in the image you posted above.
So, they might be having a misnomer on the exact Carrier type, but in the starter box there are 3 Cruisers, 2 Frigates, and 2 Frigate-sized Carriers per side.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: From the Beasts of War interviews they have a clear plan of what they want to do, but also what they don't want to do via KS (and that they don't want to fund anything too far out in the dev process),
so don't be surprised if they say We've Finished at some point rather than just throwing up more and more stretch goals
I have a sneaking suspicion that events may overtake them somewhat. I wouldn't be surprised if this blasts past their estimates and there'll be backers clamouring for more... After all, Hawk miniatures combined with a game penned by Mr BFG!
The previews for game mechanics seem really interesting yet modern too. Three altitude levels with different effects, varying 'ranges' due to detection or non-detection as all ships are operating at some sort of stealth until firing, elegant d6 resolution, heavy objective play...
Captain level looks about right for me at the moment, Im not interested in Shaltari or PHR but want enough Scourge for a decent-sized fleet and the UCM can be repurposed for BFG or something.
Have they explained the significance of the special bases? It looks like they've got clock faces on them and combine normal bases with an x-wing/clix dial.
There are two dials, one to show altitude and one to show if it's got a spike on it (similar to stress in xwing but instead makes it so you can be shot at from longer range)
Edit: and a clock face, they didn't explain it in the BoW video, I assume hull points
RiTides wrote: ....but in the starter box there are 3 Cruisers...
Yes and the only picture of the starter UCM fleet so far shows one of those Cruisers to be a carrier. I still think that the starter fleet will be 5 cruiser and 4 frigate hulls.
It's definitely just what's pictured - 3 big ships (cruisers) 4 small ships (frigates / carriers), so 7 ships total... not sure how you're listing 9 ships.
Alpharius, I think you missed this - Scourge freebies at 150k!
Oh poor Hawk wargames.... I feel like they are trying to drink out of a firehose. We're throwing money at them too fast.
I don't care for the Shaltari, but they're quite consistent with their ground forces. Weirdly, I'm thinking weaponized internal organs.
I'm really surprised at how much I like the Scourge- that basking shark choice over the usual squid deep sea creature aesthetic makes some beautiful, truly alien looking vessels. It's odd to say, but they look as if they were crafted from something else's dreams, rather than our nightmares.
And the UCM is just glorious guns with guns on their guns. Even the depths of space may not be able to hold the money I want to give them if they release a roughed up Resistance fleet based off of the UCM.
Hahahaha, oh dear. Though, the honesty is refreshing:
Project Update #2: Dropfleet Commander by Hawk Wargames - It's happening very fast!
Firstly, we want to say a huge thank you for all of your support. We are very proud of Dropfleet commander as a product and we always had high hopes of exceeding our pledge target, but none of us expected the explosive level of pledging that we have experienced.
Planning out the stretch goals for a Kickstarter involves a certain amount of educated guess work and flexibility. Although we have planned a series of stretch goals, including the unlocking of both Shaltari and PHR factions, we had expected the unlock process to much more gradual. This was to ensure that we didn’t promise too much and be unable to deliver, or indeed over-promise and then be unable to hit our original goal because of huge amounts of extras to delivered. As a result it will take a little more time to calibrate full range of stretch goals in order to ensure the we don’t exhaust them too soon and also to make sure that the rewards reflect the level of support that the community has shown.
We have mapped out the stretch goals up to the £150K mark and will be reviewing the next series of unlocks tomorrow (The PHR will be among them, and give the levels of support we’ve had so far, almost certain to be unlocked). Hawk Wargames are a small but dedicated team, and we appreciate your patience as we adjust to meet the demand. You can rest assured that there are plenty of goodies to come and all of our backers will be generously rewarded for their support.
Kind regards,
- The Hawk Wargames Team
To be fair though, hawk are producing a space combat game. With miniatures of that quality. With Mr Flippin' BFG writing them. This will attract a lot of people!
Apparently regarding 'resistance fleets', they aren't likely to be a faction at start, but pre-war refugee ships will apparently be in the game. Battlestar Galactica style.
Killionaire wrote: Apparently regarding 'resistance fleets', they aren't likely to be a faction at start, but pre-war refugee ships will apparently be in the game. Battlestar Galactica style.
Oh man, where did you see this? Could you link to it? Sounds very cool (and more appropriate than having the Resistance have access to spaceships, really).
Anyone else read the last update as we're going to recalibrate our stretch goalso to increase the cash needed between them? I did and I would honestly have preferred they just run till they are out of what they planned but oh well. Looking forward to the phr.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone else read the last update as we're going to recalibrate our stretch goalso to increase the cash needed between them? I did and I would honestly have preferred they just run till they are out of what they planned but oh well. Looking forward to the phr.
Yes, I read that. As long as they don't take the piss or try any deception Raging Hero's style...
To be fair to Hawk they have nearly funded the project 4 times over in under 12 hours of a 30+ day project, I could see how they would be a little taken aback.
But are they aware of the front loaders and the potential of the pledge total to start backtracking quite a bit if the perceived value of the KS does not go up?
I prefer realistic stretch goals that are calibrated to increase the revenue generated. Arbitrarily fake linear stretch goals lead to delays and over commitments.
Is anyone interested in splitting the two starter set pledge? It gets you all the basics needed to play, two sets of ships, and access to all stretch goals. It seems like you'll want two sets of ships since otherwise you'll only have 3 cruisers!
For those here that haven't interacted much or just don't know Hawk Wargames very well. Their interaction with their fans and the community is top notch. Those guys are so passionate about what they are doing and are doing their best to deliver the best gaming experiance possible. I'm 100% positive that they will do their absolute best to deliver what they promise. But they are also a very small company and it's their first kickstarter. So in order not to set the expectations too high, they went in with a conservative approach. Unfortunately (yeah i know ) they got steamrolled with money, so they will have to take some time to adjust everything.
In short: With Hawk Wargames track record i would blindly throw money at them and be confident, that i will get what they promise. Just be a bit patient, for they are a small company.
Soteks Prophet wrote: Though in the case of UCM most of the starter stuff is eclipsed buy better tanks.
It will still be a case of limited shots and missing 16% of the time at a minimum AND be very expensive so meh
Not really.
The UCM starter consists of basic infantry (always required), Bear APCs (viable choice for transport), Rapier AA (best AA in game, only ground tank AA available to UCM) and Sabre Tanks (Solid anti-armor units, but with equals in the Katanas). It also comes with 3 medium dropships which you are guarenteed to use literally every single game.
Nobody else has it better really for these types of units, so it's still all solid.
Re the stretch goals, I didn't interpret it only as they're going to go back and pad it out, but also that since the take has so far exceeded their expectations, they can consider adding more stuff in, within reason. Hence the we don't want to over-commit line.
We're very keen to support local gaming stores and clubs, which is why very few gaming elements other than the plastic sets (such as battleships, command units etc) will be offered on this Kickstarter Campaign.
We also want to support distributors, retailers and local gaming groups, and not treat Kickstarter as a store front, so we are also pledging that a variety of products in the entire planned product range (such as command units, larger and smaller ships and a range of other scenery items) will not be available via our Kickstarter campaign.
Now it makes sense why the campaign offerings seem a bit limited, they are literally only the starter set ships. "Battleships", "command units", and "larger and smaller ships" are not being offered.
I'm lucky enough to have a FLGS that stocks DzC, but even still that's a bit of a bummer. You're going to need to buy a command unit if it's anything like DzC, and you'll also likely want a Battleship and maybe some smaller ships. From the way they say they're offering very few things "other than the plastic sets" it makes it sound like those things will be in their resin. So, more expensive, as well...
I'm still sticking with half of a two starter set pledge (found a local gamer who wants the Scourge!), but not adding any more since if it's like DzC, the variety of the single blister items will make them more desirable than only duplicating starters.
It's nice of them to think of local retailers, but it also means everyone who really wants to play more than an intro game is going to need to go buy a command unit later (again, if it's like DzC in that regard, where one isn't needed for a small intro game or included in the starter). That's smart business but as a consumer it's a bit of a bummer, too. Will be looking forward to seeing what they have ready in resin by the time this hits next summer, but not really much to do now unless they decide to offer the greater variety of ship sizes / roles they mention are in the game above.
@RiTides: True, command units are pretty much as must-have in DZC because otherwise you cripple your commanders abilities.
However, the goal of this KS is to fund the creation of a) a plastic starter set and hopefully (almost certain now) the tooling of plastic starters for the other two main factions.
That saves you a fair chunk of cash which you can then use to buy those battleships, command units, etc.
I don't want Hawk to over extend this and run into difficulties. IIRC early on in DZC's run they were caught on the hop because they didn't expect the game to be quite so popular.
I know how many people have been looking forward to the KS starting in my area but I was still surprised that it funded in..what twelve minutes?
I can see where you are coming from - it would be nice to grab the whole fleet in plastic from the get go - but OTOH after years of GW grinding the face of Indies into the mud I'm pleased to see more companies actively trying to support LGS.
EDIT: That said, on further reflection I am kind of torn. There are going to be models that I dont' think will be worth making in plastic because they just wont' sell enough of them...unless the game really takes off...which would be helped by cheaper plastic fleets. I don't know how or if we could work out where the break point for LGSes would be in terms of being able to sell the whole range in plastic versus having access to the non-core stuff albeit in resin. Especially when they still have to compete against the significant discounts offered by online retailers.
Don't be surprised if it's only the starter fleets in plastic. I very much doubt any other options will be available in this KS. Other choices will be available at retail so Hawk stays on the FLGS good side. I'm sure I read that somewhere!
I'm just not seeing much savings beyond basic discount in this. Unless they are going to be making everything cost that much more than drop zone commander it's not even a 20% discount. It's actually looking like 10% or less.
I'm interested but I'll probably wait for retail and see if it picks up locally. I've got armada for my current fleet needs.
I think it's a good compromise to keep the smaller run likely resin stuff off the kickstarter and stores/online store only. As for the command units, you don't think there will be a "command" variant of one of the ships in the starter? I suspect in DFC the equivalents of more advanced command stuff like the giant flying phoenix for the UCM will be off the kickstarter but simpler stuff like the variant apc (kodiak?) will be in the kickstarter.
Avoiding resin for the KS seems smart, as not only could it cause delays in getting enough cast,
since they do their own casting it could also very well impact negatively in the supply of the DZC resin stuff to stores & individuals which would not be good for their main game
(they could hire more people, but resin casting is not a simple business, and hireing/training folk takes plenty of time)
Hopefully it didn't sound like I was complaining, but what I mean is this - my whole group bought in heavily on DzC when it launched, and the backlog on the resin was crazy (due to popularity!). You had to order it direct to get it rather then through a distributor - we had a gigantic order in to Miniature Market, and they couldn't get any of it and eventually refunded it.
They've grown and learned a lot since then, but I'm envisioning possibly having to pay separate UK shipping if we want command units or battleships (or even smaller ships) anywhere near to when we receive the Kickstarter sets. So, that's just a bummer is all, and means there's no reason to back beyond two starter sets here.
Warboss - Again from DzC, but the starter set will Definitely not make a command variant based on their comment above!
Overtyrant - I quoted that text above, they explicitly say they are not offering the big/small/command ships here. It is smart for fulfilling on time, but it guarantees if you want to play a standard sized game you will need to place another separate order.
- Too much shown towards stores and they risk a bunch of backers pulling out as the perceived value fails to materialise and goals are either relocked or fail to fund with their, ahem, "Stretched funding plan"
- Too much shown towards backers and stores think, rightly or wrongly; "No point carrying that, everyone's got it"
Hawk still need to do more or should be prepared to do more with the funding they receive. Things like plastic terrain, more ships in plastic (tool up other ones that will end up being fairly common), plastic clusters or objective markers, deluxe gaming surfaces, etc. Doing things like improving the offering in the starter can't be a bad thing at the very least. Besides, I want the Beijing class battleship!
Wow, that looks great! But is almost certainly either a command or battleship, which they said they're not offering here (or terrain). Here are the quotes on that from the KS page again:
...very few gaming elements other than the plastic sets (such as battleships, command units etc) will be offered on this Kickstarter Campaign.
...a variety of products in the entire planned product range (such as command units, larger and smaller ships and a range of other scenery items) will not be available via our Kickstarter campaign.
Aye, and that runs into my point one. Too little shown to backers and they could see people pulling out as the perception of value for some fails to materialise. This, combined with their new stretched stretch goal targets, could mean they fail to fund them or even have some re-locked!
I think they'll do really well, it's just that I know from DzC the medium sized ships and core stuff in the starter won't be enough to satisfy us in games for long . Definitely keeping my pledge right where it is, and looking forward to getting more when offered next summer as they launch the game!
overtyrant wrote: Don't be surprised if it's only the starter fleets in plastic.
If the KS does as well as it looks like it will then I wouldn't be surprised to find more plastic kits beyond the Cruisers and frigates. Not as KS specific rewards but for general production.
Just watching Part 2 - BFG influence is right there from the crippled, damage points and the catastrophic damage. Couple that with the move/shoot/Landing/End phase and it just looks wicked!
The kick starter on the other hand looks a mess with no clear stretch goals and them being flung on after it has be surpassed (a very Corrupt way of doing things)
I don't think hawk has understood what it's doing on ks they seem so very ill prepared the first few days is very very important and should have been all hands on deck for at least the first few days regardless when it falls.
As for the people who say hawk doesn't owe any one yes it does currently around £180,000.
Now on to parts of the good I can find so not all negative.
The models look great apart from everyone frigates except the ucms. I want to see the guns littered over the ship ucm has done very well the scourge not very well and shatarai not sure again all this can change when get models in hand.
I am waiting to see the phr but get a bad feeling they make go like directorate from firestorm and have to much under a shell you can't see when in game but I hope for more as so far the ucm have by far the best ships.
Scourge I didn't think I would like but have very elegant looking cruisers which I like a lot more than I thought I would. The frigates just look crap was hopeing for more sleak design just don't seem to fit in with the cruisers.
Shatarai cruisers look good apart from the mother ship one. The frigates are OK but need to see more versions first they remind me a bit of Vulcan ships. Need more pieces and stuff to really see the looks of the shatarai.
And now the phr where are they :( this is the side I wanted to see the most come on hawk show us some more anime esk ships
All in all the designs look good for the models some I would say look gorgeous others I may not like the shape but are still fine looking models from detail stand point.
The game from the very small bits I have seen doesn't take my breath away nothing not seen in a 100 different spaceship games before some tweaks but have to wait to see the meat of the game before seeing something special I think as we are seeing to much in a vacuum and since rules are not finalised it may develop more so hopes that the combination of not seeing the meat of the game and seeing small bits in a void are hiding a truly worth while game that gives the feel of just how big the ships are.
Sorry long post but I figure the game could be worth a long post fingers crossed
The kick starter on the other hand looks a mess with no clear stretch goals and them being flung on after it has be surpassed (a very Corrupt way of doing things)
The KS was funded in 15 minutes, I think its quite safe to say that this level of demand was not anticipated. As such its no real wonder that their planned stretch goals were mostly surpassed before they were even made public. Nothing corrupt about it and Hawk have always been very clear that the KS is entirely about getting the DFC starter fleets made in plastic and not stretch goals.
I would point out if that was the case shouldn't they have had the stretch goals at least up to the phr starter laid out? Overall if they just wanted the starters (which people are paying more for than discounted retail) then they should have run a shorter camain and be all hands on deck the first few days.
Either way I'm keeping an eye on it. We'll see if the value increases enough for a 6 month lead time.
If the rule book has the same quality fluff and flavor text as the DZC book, we're in for a treat. One can only wonder if or when novels will be announced.
Think I'm going to pass and wait for retail on this. The game looks awesome and has a lot going for it, but not seeing much benefit to opening my wallet this far in advance for what looks to be essentially the online price for the starter set.
zedmeister wrote:Hahahaha, oh dear. Though, the honesty is refreshing:
I found this pretty tempting to begin with, but I think the honesty tipped me over the edge.
Souleater wrote:I don't want Hawk to over extend this and run into difficulties.
warboss wrote:I think it's a good compromise to keep the smaller run likely resin stuff off the kickstarter and stores/online store only.
Yup. All this freakish 'culture' that's sprung up around wargames kickstarters, promising more than you can realistically supply; expecting more than they can realistically supply; sellers and punters alike treating Kickstarter like a webshop; getting all huffy when they offer you a discount rather than a throat-cutting haemorrhage; pledging early to help them fund their goal but revoking that because it turns out you actually didn't give a gak about helping them fund their goal, and they dared to not throw tons of free crap at you; raging when they mysteriously have trouble fulfilling their mad workload, or when they cut corners... it's all so much bs.
What's that, Mister Hawk and co? You want a bit of up-front capital to help get some plastic moulds made? Surely. I'll contribute an amount that would be enough to get a two-fleet starter at retail or a bit below it. What's that now? You got enough money overall thanks to me and like-minded souls, and I actually get a two-fleet starter at retail or a bit below it? Very nice. I'm quite satisfied. Especially if it's basically an intro-game set 'cos that what I plan to do with it. (To coin a phrase, I'd like to help Hawk so that I can help myself)
I just asked that question so that is good to know. So if you go in that heavy you wind up with 1 extra cruiser per fleet and 8 frigates if I read it right?
@vermin
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for more of a discount than I will get at retail for a 6 month no interest loan. Call me crazy. That said it gets a little better if this hits 500k if I spend 170 up front. It gets solid at that point even if I wind up with stuff I probably won't use
I think Vermis is treating all kickstarter threads as if they are the same when they are not. I am pledging here in a legitimate campaign for a solid product from a reliable company, so of course I am going to post differently than I did in the latest Mantic clown show.
My only real concern is their focus on retailers. 90% of the time, my local FLGSs cannot even special order the DZC minis I want. So, I guess I'll just stick to the KS rewards and whatever ends up listed for a reasonable price on Amazon...
Bob - I think it'd be better not to needlessly jab other companies just to talk about this one!
You're right of course that every company / campaign is different, and I think it is definitely in some ways admirable that Hawk is "sticking to their guns" here. Plastic injection molding takes a long time, and this makes it much more likely that they'll be able to deliver on-time and with an excellent product, as they have consistently in the past (not through KS).
It does mean that I'll invest less here than I eventually will on a full fleet just because they're not offering everything, but I will get the basics now and trick out the fleet with the battleships / command etc when they add them closer to the actual game launch
zedmeister wrote:Hahahaha, oh dear. Though, the honesty is refreshing:
I found this pretty tempting to begin with, but I think the honesty tipped me over the edge.
Souleater wrote:I don't want Hawk to over extend this and run into difficulties.
warboss wrote:I think it's a good compromise to keep the smaller run likely resin stuff off the kickstarter and stores/online store only.
Yup. All this freakish 'culture' that's sprung up around wargames kickstarters, promising more than you can realistically supply; expecting more than they can realistically supply; sellers and punters alike treating Kickstarter like a webshop; getting all huffy when they offer you a discount rather than a throat-cutting haemorrhage; pledging early to help them fund their goal but revoking that because it turns out you actually didn't give a gak about helping them fund their goal, and they dared to not throw tons of free crap at you; raging when they mysteriously have trouble fulfilling their mad workload, or when they cut corners... it's all so much bs.
What's that, Mister Hawk and co? You want a bit of up-front capital to help get some plastic moulds made? Surely. I'll contribute an amount that would be enough to get a two-fleet starter at retail or a bit below it. What's that now? You got enough money overall thanks to me and like-minded souls, and I actually get a two-fleet starter at retail or a bit below it? Very nice. I'm quite satisfied. Especially if it's basically an intro-game set 'cos that what I plan to do with it. (To coin a phrase, I'd like to help Hawk so that I can help myself)
Oh, no, no. You need to get 200 dollars worth of stuff for your 100 dollar pledge, or else it's a fleecing scheme to get your money, see?
You are supposed to be pledging a preorder to a company to help them get something made, with a little bit of fun kickback in return for that 'loaand I just did that with a game called Shadowstar Corsairs, and I am happy with it.
I don't think anyone thinks their getting fleeced if the don't get a 100% return on their money. But by all means use hyperbole
I think most people consider the costs of paying for something 6 months out without delay at more than they can buy retail from reputable vendors. If you can't at least make it worthwhile against that that's fine, there are other places for money. But don't act like people who think that way are wrong. Do we all really think the company couldn't get a loan for these molds without our help?
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for more of a discount than I will get at retail for a 6 month no interest loan.
The KS levels are a discount on the RRP (exactly how much of a discount hasn't been disclosed yet) there is free shipping (for the UK at least) and 'free' stuff has already been unlocked. The way things are going there will probably be quite a lot of free stuff. Its looking like this KS will be pretty good value.
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think anyone thinks their getting fleeced if the don't get a 100% return on their money. But by all means use hyperbole
I think most people consider the costs of paying for something 6 months out without delay at more than they can buy retail from reputable vendors. If you can't at least make it worthwhile against that that's fine, there are other places for money. But don't act like people who think that way are wrong. Do we all really think the company couldn't get a loan for these molds without our help?
Hyperbole maybe, but theres already griping about a project by a reputable maker of a great game, with a great pedigree, which is already funded, about whether the stretch goals are good enough. And I'm not the only one thinking like my earlier post.
I do expect more of a discount then I can get at my local webstore, so that's a significant discount on MSRP. Why do I expect this? I'm giving money 6+ months in advance to a publisher to make a product that they'll eventually sell for a profit, to me they are selling it with way more profit then when they sell it to a retailer through a distributor. When selling through a distributor Hawk get's about 40% of the MSRP, with KS they keep about 90% of the KS MSRP. So I don't expect a 60% discount, but meeting halfway is not unreasonable (35% discount). With the current stretch goals we're not there yet, when we hit 500k, we're more then there. Depending on where we exactly wind up, I'll keep backing or not.I do want them to do well, but this is not a oneway street nor a charity or a donation.
The reason I back KS projects is to either:
a). Fund a project that would otherwise not be made, which is not the case with Dropfleet Commander.
b). Get more bang for my buck. Like many here, I have less money then all the stuff I would like to buy. Buying more with less is an easy fix.
About the MSRP, when they price the KS prices the same as their equivalent Dropzone Commander products, I can only assume that these are the MSRP prices when they don't give the MSRP prices.
It's not just about free stuff, it's also about 'professionalism' of a KS page, this feels as if this is their very first product and they haven't researched how to run a KS. You launch on a Friday and then everyone is poorly available during the weekend?* We unlocked faction dice in the first few hours, but they aren't available as an add-on (no pictures either), the same goes for the acrylics.
Don't get me wrong, the models look amazing and would love to see the part collection for each sprue.
* I'm also 'self-employed' if I do a major change just before or in the weekend and it creates more support calls then expected, I'm also working the rest of the weekend. Sometimes, when no one else is available, you do 12+ hour work days. This is especially true for the days just after a new product launch...
Don't like the shatarai frigates the more I look at them the less I like them. Since my mate will take ucm it has left me with nothing so far damn them lol.
Seems phr is my last hope for a whole good looking fleet if they suck the game is a none starter for me
RoninXiC wrote: No KS project has to give any kind of discount.
And we don't have to back a project. Fanboys/Lemmings will back anything in their fanvision. The rest of us look at their wallet and think "Why back now and run a (small) risk and buy it cheaper on release?". I fully expect that this project will do well enough for that not being an issue. But folks have been 'spoiled' by campaigns from companies like CMoN and while they've been very late on some projects, they've been right on time with others (and still an insane amount of free stuff). Is it fair to hold up every KS to the insanity that succesfull CMoN KS bring? No! Is it understandable that some people do? Absolutely!
The idea behind KS is to make money. They do that by disclosing an easy to use crowdfunding platform that anyone can use. Whether it's a product that's going to be made anyway or a project that wouldn't see the light of day without crowdfunding. It doesn't matter what it's used for, as long as KS get's it's cut and folks follow the rules.
Certain idealists want to portray it as a certain ideological endeavor, but folks still make money on every side but ours. It's not strange to ask with a commercial endeavor " What's in it for me?". And Hawk is running a business, nothing more, nothing less. Standing on a morality high horse is an exercise in futility...
I think everything will fall into place when the alternate cruisers etc become unlocked for the other factions.
Then, if Hawk do a sort of, "2 starter sets for each faction + alternate cruiser" bolt-on pack for say, £70, then that ends up being a saving, but not undercutting the retailers, because it's not a direct saving...
Without knowing what RRP is, its hard to say its worth backing this KS. Im currently sitting on an admiral pledge, it is not at all worth what Im paying for it, even withr forthcoming stretch goals Im reasonably certain I will be effectively overpaying for what I get (somewhat mitigated by the fact I intend on selling the scourge and shaltari components). Looking at the Lieutenant level (the lowest one), assuming the starter and book is priced identically to the Dropzone equivalnetz, it would actuqlly vost me more to get it from the KS than to purchase it at full RRP at a local store (factoring in the shipping cost).
chaos0xomega wrote: Without knowing what RRP is, its hard to say its worth backing this KS. Im currently sitting on an admiral pledge, it is not at all worth what Im paying for it, even withr forthcoming stretch goals Im reasonably certain I will be effectively overpaying for what I get (somewhat mitigated by the fact I intend on selling the scourge and shaltari components). Looking at the Lieutenant level (the lowest one), assuming the starter and book is priced identically to the Dropzone equivalnetz, it would actuqlly vost me more to get it from the KS than to purchase it at full RRP at a local store (factoring in the shipping cost).
Yeah, I think the admiral pledge has you currently paying 45 extra pounds just for beta, maybe 15 pounds, once all the current goals are unlocked. And aot of that let's be honest isn't worth the value they are attaching to it in the bolt on and that assumes one of each pin and dice set.
Either way captain is going to be fairly decent if they get to 500k pounds. Then the case can be made its financially sensible to throw in. Currently it's just not there. But we're day 3. I hope to see some movement on more stuff.
Well, assuming it is one of everything, so five pins, five sets of dice and six sets of tokens. With the £195k bolt on, it's £22.50 for the beta access. That's also costing the sprues at £8.75 each (£35 / 4).
Dropping it down to just one pin, dice set, token set, it's currently £132.50 for the beta access.
Note that neither of those account for the UCMF Atlantis that's also included in the pledge level.
chaos0xomega wrote: Without knowing what RRP is, its hard to say its worth backing this KS.
The higher the RRP will be, the less this game is worth. Hawk Wargames has made the deliberate choice to not let you buy your entire fleet here, so the more expensive your other ships are (and if the battleships are not HIPS, they're going to be very expensive), the harder it is to fill in the gaps in your fleet.
Cergorach wrote: I do expect more of a discount then I can get at my local webstore, so that's a significant discount on MSRP. Why do I expect this? I'm giving money 6+ months in advance to a publisher to make a product that they'll eventually sell for a profit, to me they are selling it with way more profit then when they sell it to a retailer through a distributor. When selling through a distributor Hawk get's about 40% of the MSRP, with KS they keep about 90% of the KS MSRP. So I don't expect a 60% discount, but meeting halfway is not unreasonable (35% discount). With the current stretch goals we're not there yet, when we hit 500k, we're more then there. Depending on where we exactly wind up, I'll keep backing or not.I do want them to do well, but this is not a oneway street nor a charity or a donation.
The reason I back KS projects is to either:
a). Fund a project that would otherwise not be made, which is not the case with Dropfleet Commander.
b). Get more bang for my buck. Like many here, I have less money then all the stuff I would like to buy. Buying more with less is an easy fix.
About the MSRP, when they price the KS prices the same as their equivalent Dropzone Commander products, I can only assume that these are the MSRP prices when they don't give the MSRP prices.
It's not just about free stuff, it's also about 'professionalism' of a KS page, this feels as if this is their very first product and they haven't researched how to run a KS. You launch on a Friday and then everyone is poorly available during the weekend?* We unlocked faction dice in the first few hours, but they aren't available as an add-on (no pictures either), the same goes for the acrylics.
Don't get me wrong, the models look amazing and would love to see the part collection for each sprue.
* I'm also 'self-employed' if I do a major change just before or in the weekend and it creates more support calls then expected, I'm also working the rest of the weekend. Sometimes, when no one else is available, you do 12+ hour work days. This is especially true for the days just after a new product launch...
So you've never seen any of the "Okay, this is all we're planning on doing. Thanks for backing, see everyone in 30 days" terrain production Kickstarter projects? Or the small "Yeah, we saw what happened to Palladium" or "Yeah, we've seen Mantic run their business, we don't want to go there" miniature production Kickstarters?
Sometimes a business just wants to have a small success instead of a two million dollar failure.
The higher the RRP will be, the less this game is worth. Hawk Wargames has made the deliberate choice to not let you buy your entire fleet here, so the more expensive your other ships are (and if the battleships are not HIPS, they're going to be very expensive), the harder it is to fill in the gaps in your fleet.
The DZC starter box contains around a third of a tournament standard force (and all of it is useful), I would guestimate that DFC will be around the same level.
You're right of course that every company / campaign is different
No, I think you'll find people are massive, whiny, entitled babies in every campaign. Take a look at the comments for the wildly successful Scythe campaign, done by a guy who has done so many wildly successful campaigns he's literally written the book on how to crowdfund. His crime was having a theory about stretch goals, so he decided to arrange them a little differently this time around to see if the results backed his theory. The funding naturally went to about 500% or some such in an hour, and then the backers had a massive bitch fest in the comments for days because he wasn't putting the goals up like normal, they way they demanded. Whine, whine, whine, entitled little gaks.
I meant from the company side . I do get the point, but I think backers will be understanding here.
I general, I love what Kickstarter has done for things like this - it has really opened up the possibilities! Being able to launch this way will benefit everybody in the long term, getting everything in the starters made in plastic from the start (rather than how it was phased in gradually for DzC). I'd certainly love to get my battleships now, but I respect their decision and look forward to getting them later when available!
I'd personally love it if we could go back to discussing Dropfleet on its own, and have the more general KS culture discussion in Dakka Discussions or the like. There's so much to love here!
Compel wrote: I'd take a guess that a standard fleet would be something like:
2 starter sets
Resin Battleship
Large Resin Troop Carrier
Resin Fleet Carrier
2 more cruisers.
Fleet carriers (even though Hawk keep using the names for the frigate and cruiser sized carriers interchangeably ) are almost certainly the cruiser sized ones that can be made from the plastic sprue.
Going by my DZC army I suspect that the average fleet will eventually be something like:
2x starters (in plastic)
Resin Battleship or Battlecruiser
Resin Command ship
Resin Corvettes (unless they are made from the Frigate sprue)
1x cruiser box for motherships and the like
Personally I think i will just take a pile of Cruisers and Frigates, possibly a command ship as well depending on how the command rules work.
Does anyone know what the bulges on the Lima class Frigate are? Some sort of sensor suite?
Very interesting so far, but I'm not sure about where I want to be on this. Like Alph I really like the UCM stuff, but I'm not sure on any of the other fleets which means the value proposition is a bit sketchier on the bigger pledge levels. Still, loads of time to figure all that out so I think I'll watch from the sidelines for a bit.
Well, it's still quite early in the campaign at the moment. I'm sure that things will improve as we go along.
That being said, there are a few things that could have been done better, imho.
1) Updates: They could do with a little more content, specifically with regards to unlocked goals and the goals to come. Just a means to spread the information to the existing backers in an easier format. Images to go along with these would be nice as well.
2) Bolt ons: More details about these would be nice. The dice / pins / tokens need clarifying, both in regards to the fact that it's £X per choice and there's Y choices available and also how they relate to Admiral level backers.
3) Clarity: Reading the short form of the Admiral pledge suggests that you get two starters, one of each starter fleet and all addons that are available by the end. Translating into 4x UCM/Scourge starter fleets and 2xShaltari/PHR. However, they've contradicted that in the comments section, saying that it's just 3x/1x the fleets.
4) KS presence: Yes, it's the weekend and people like to have time off. However, running a KS is a big deal, especially for first timers. I'd have thought they'd have made sure they had the key people available to make decisions and communicate with backers. Given how quickly this funded on Friday, they should have maybe taken that as a sign to have a couple of extra people available over the weekend.
Just a few things, many of which I'm sure will improve as we go into the working week and they have more staff in the office.
AegisGrimm wrote:Hyperbole maybe, but theres already griping about a project by a reputable maker of a great game, with a great pedigree, which is already funded, about whether the stretch goals are good enough. And I'm not the only one thinking like my earlier post.
RoninXiC wrote:No KS project has to give any kind of discount.
That's not the idea of Kickstarter.
The idea is to get enough people interested in spending some money in advance to fund a project.
That's all what it is about.
solkan wrote:
So you've never seen any of the "Okay, this is all we're planning on doing. Thanks for backing, see everyone in 30 days" terrain production Kickstarter projects? Or the small "Yeah, we saw what happened to Palladium" or "Yeah, we've seen Mantic run their business, we don't want to go there" miniature production Kickstarters?
Sometimes a business just wants to have a small success instead of a two million dollar failure.
That, that, and that.
Cergorach wrote:It's not strange to ask with a commercial endeavor "What's in it for me?"
You get some nice minis and a wargame written by Andy Chambers. More than that, you get the opportunity to get some nice minis and a wargame written by Andy Chambers, and maybe some tiny grain of satisfaction from the fact you're a Helpy Helperton.
I know that for these big asks, to make plastic moulds and whatnot, it'd probably help to jump through some hoops to ease backers' minds and massage the total upwards; but some of the usual methods seem play on and definitely feed - as NTRabbit says - an unattractive sense of entitlement. Greed, even. Oh yes. It's locked backers and sellers into an odd, not-entirely-sustainable way of doing things, to the point that overstretched, poorly-fulfilled campaigns litter the landscape, that some businesses are trapped in kickstarter itself, and that we've got apologists popping up to defend it.
I'm accused of treating all KS threads the same. Nope, only threads for these big ones, because the stretch-goal, freebie, fill-yer-boots reactions are so predictable.
And while I'm not so naive to think that the wargaming market runs on happy thoughts alone or that lead mountains spring up out of nowhere, it irritates me to see that outside GW, the hobby can still be so... consumerist. It even irritates me to use that word - people can do what they like with their own money, I ain't holdin' a gun to yer head; but that mere fact doesn't automatically lead to happy outcomes, or a healthy direction for parts of the hobby.
As Aegis said, people are already moaning about stretch goals and maybe pulling out, for this KS. As usual. Some folk getting cold feet perhaps won't kill a well-funded campaign like this, and maybe that affects their decision; but they're still contributing their small bit, not to the success of the campaign but to it's failure. They're still passing on the message that they don't care if any given new game or range of minis lives or dies, and pushing creators onto the KS roundabout, if they don't bleed out for them.
And then when they do bleed out and have nothing left to work with, the backers still moan and whinge that they're not doing it right. Bah!
And no, maybe they're not doing it right and haven't fully worked out their costs, but the clamour for the arcane system of stretches, add-ons and freebies can't help the poor sods if they already have that much trouble with it.
Just... be happy for a new game and that you helped bring it about, can't you?
I asked nicely before, but please take the general "consumers and Kickstarter" discussion to Dakka Discussions, and let's focus specifically on the Dropfleet Kickstarter here.
It's not fair to weigh down Dropfleet's thread with this general issue. It is certainly a topic worth discussing... just not worth derailing this thread for.
So, please Dropfleet specific discussion from now on - thanks!
Really excited for this. Very interesting idea to have it in low orbit.
The paper mats seem like a decent stopgap until proper ones are released. Seems odd to see them selling for 15 pounds though. Are they nicer than I'm imagining? Are there existing examples to compare to?
The BoW videos were done using space mats, right? Does that work, or was it just for demonstration purposes (since all the mats seem to be of high altitude views of landscapes)?
RiTides wrote: The BoW videos were done using space mats, right? Does that work, or was it just for demonstration purposes (since all the mats seem to be of high altitude views of landscapes)?
Just for demo purposes, they had to use asteroids as token objectives. It would work in a real game although there may well be difficulties with objectives.
RiTides wrote: Could you elaborate on "ground combat rules"? Not just normal Dropzone Commander right, but something specific to Dropfleet only?
One of the major objectives in Dropfleet is capturing ground locations by landing troops and fighting off enemy ground forces. Exactly how this will work isn't known yet but its something that I find quite interesting.
These ground objectives are 'clusters' split into multiple 'sectors', each sector can be garrisoned and attacked separately. The small frigate sized Strike Carriers carry elite forces (significantly better than standard forces, over twice as good apparently) and can land 1 a turn while mother ships carry standard forces but can land 4 a turn. capitol ships can also bombard planets, quite ineffectually for the most part although specialised bombardment ships are apparently extremely good at blowing things up and denying objectives.
The exact mechanics of ground combar is still being finalised but will probably involved modified dice rolls.
I backed £60. Which is a lot more than i ususally spend on kickstarter. But since it seems like this campaign actually is about funding hard plastic and do not seem to go in to the usual overpromise/underdeliver direction I am willing to spend on something that will be delivered next year.
The Aegis ODL is a formidable N-4 class laser weapon, designed for static defence against enemy assets deployed from orbit or high atmosphere. While it can make an impact against smaller starships, its primary role is to strike at enemy dropship formations at extreme ranges, where it excels. Its slow traverse and massive size make it unwieldy for tactical use on the battlefield however, where it is vulnerable to close assault. The Aegis has been in service with the armies of humanity for over 200 years. It was in the process of being introduced across Earth and the Cradle Worlds at the time of the Scourge invasion, although unfortunately there were far too few operational to make much difference in the cataclysm. Today, the Aegis is still manufactured on Ferrum by the UCM and several installations are known to be functional and under the control of Scourge or Resistance forces on the Cradle Worlds. Whenever one of these mighty constructs is present on the battlefield its capture or destruction will almost always be a critical objective, since it is more than capable of erasing whole flotillas of dropships from the sky.
£45.00!
I hope the plastics help make all of this a bit less 'premium'...
Well, that particular laser is supposed to be the same size as the point defence guns on the frigate, so they'd end up being pretty small terrain pieces. Cheap though!
The sprues obviously come with extra weapons and parts, so I guess that's how I'll roll.
I've got a big Mantic Terrain Laser and some Eisenkern Crusader laser arms that will do just fine as orbital defense weaponry.
Heck, I've got some Dollar Store guns that might fit the bill, too, although they won't remind me nearly so much of awkward Skype moments as the Aegis does.
That laser is not for, or in scale with, Dropfleet. If they want ground terrain elements they're going to need to be Very small, given the scale of the maps. I'd love some orbital terrain, too
RiTides wrote: That laser is not for, or in scale with, Dropfleet. If they want ground terrain elements they're going to need to be Very small, given the scale of the maps. I'd love some orbital terrain, too
Given the nature of the game I think that some sort of orbital defense structures are highly likely to surface at some point.
I do expect more of a discount then I can get at my local webstore, so that's a significant discount on MSRP. Why do I expect this? I'm giving money 6+ months in advance to a publisher to make a product that they'll eventually sell for a profit, to me they are selling it with way more profit then when they sell it to a retailer through a distributor. When selling through a distributor Hawk get's about 40% of the MSRP, with KS they keep about 90% of the KS MSRP. So I don't expect a 60% discount, but meeting halfway is not unreasonable (35% discount). With the current stretch goals we're not there yet, when we hit 500k, we're more then there. Depending on where we exactly wind up, I'll keep backing or not.I do want them to do well, but this is not a oneway street nor a charity or a donation.
Huge discounts is what ruins KS right now for smaller companies, cause they never can compete with the discounts CMON or others can give.
KS is actually investing into a product to support it and not ordering it at a discount. It says there right on the front page of KS.
The numbers you made up are the ones gonzos like GW can ask for, but not the ones smaller companies can ask for. It´s on average 5-10% less than your numbers. Also in the best case they keep 80-75% of the KS-money cause KS and tax have to be payed for. And the KS-money does not only provide for the production of the KS-units but also for the ones that go out to the LGS soon after.
Then there are the costs per race. I do have quite accurate first-hand numbers for the DZC-starter and it cost about 200k to finance it. so per race you can assume that 100k is the average they need to do each race. The low numbers we see with many other mini-KS are faux, cause you will never find a company doing them for you at such a low price. They simply hope that the hype is strong enough to reach the true costs and quite some companies had to cancel their KS because of this. I.e. only after we reach 400K they are actually making money. Until then they are adding their own funds to it.
> CMON
Well, I have seen nearly all miniatures they produced and while they are nice, there are galaxies between the level of quality and detail Hawk and the one CMON gives us. And don´t get me started about rules, which are often the weak spot of CMON.
And they really got floored, they assumed that they would hit the current level in 3 weeks and this would have given them some time to prepare more stuff. Also from preparing successfull KS myself I do know how much work goes already into it beforheand. The first two days after it goes life are kind of the first time you can take the lady out after several weeks of not being available to her. So please let them breath...
Regarding value:
I am working in the gaming business and know of most games how much the minis cost in production and I actually consider the DFC-KS quite a good deal. At first I did not want to support it, but after calculating numbers I pledged.
RiTides wrote: I asked nicely before, but please take the general "consumers and Kickstarter" discussion to Dakka Discussions, and let's focus specifically on the Dropfleet Kickstarter here.
It's not fair to weigh down Dropfleet's thread with this general issue. It is certainly a topic worth discussing... just not worth derailing this thread for.
So, please Dropfleet specific discussion from now on - thanks!
The plan on doing additional terrain since they don´t want to have an empty plain where the one who shoots luckier wins:
So expect some interesting terrain-stuff in the future.
Also don´t forget that we have approx 3 levels and that some ships can only operate at certain levels.
Regarding the Orbital defense laser: That thing is quite huge and massive, has a gate tha can be flipped open and the laser can be swiveled and turned around.
You see that gate? An average UCM-tank fits between the two "mandibles". It is for DZC not DFC.
That thing is btw, the same gun you can see in the dozens on the sides of the New Orleans class.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: The plan on doing additional terrain since they don´t want to have an empty plain where the one who shoots luckier wins:
There will never be an 'open plain' in DFC due to have to shooting rules work. Apparently the only 'terrain' will be spacial anomalies of some kind (not entirely sure what that means).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: 45 dollars seems a bit steep for a piece of terrain.
What was that?
45 pounds??
It's certainly big enough to beat someone to death with. I'm continually tempted to order it from mini market and I'm pretty much hoping that all the DZC terrain is on sale on MM's black friday sale so I can snap it all up.
Basically if you want a standalone spaceship game to play, go for the starter set.
You're pretty much guaranteed to get more play out of that than, for example, the Star Wars: Armada Boxed Set.
I handled playing the Star Wars Armada starter games maybe 4 times before being bored out of my skull.
The Dropzone Commander starter game on the other hand? I'm pretty sure I've played it at least 15 times now and I still haven't got a full handle on its tactics.
However, if you want a fully fledged UCM / Scourge fleet, that's going to lead on to tournament forces, go for the captain level.
If you want PHR or shaltari, go for Lieutenant, then bolt-ons, I'd say.
Captain won't be a full fleet any more than multiple DzC starters would be able to comprise a full (effective) army. But I do think 2 starters will be a great basis for a fleet - just know you're going to need to add their later offerings to it when the game releases.
This is my first Kickstarter ever. So excited. Only bad thing is that I can't have them right now If they hit 300k, I will get Shaltari frigates and a cruiser for free, and PHR at 350k. Yay excitement.
Compel wrote: Basically if you want a standalone spaceship game to play, go for the starter set.
You're pretty much guaranteed to get more play out of that than, for example, the Star Wars: Armada Boxed Set.
I handled playing the Star Wars Armada starter games maybe 4 times before being bored out of my skull.
The Dropzone Commander starter game on the other hand? I'm pretty sure I've played it at least 15 times now and I still haven't got a full handle on its tactics.
However, if you want a fully fledged UCM / Scourge fleet, that's going to lead on to tournament forces, go for the captain level.
If you want PHR or shaltari, go for Lieutenant, then bolt-ons, I'd say.
I had the exact opposite experience. Everyone we played with got rid of DZC after around two games.
Additionally, putting caps on where you want stretches to end isn't a bad thing. That doesn't make this any better in regards to their incredibly poor planning.
As someone who's played both, I prefer Armada. Mostly because armada games don't take 3 hrs for 1 game. Either that or my local meta is really really slow
As it is, I like the designs for DFC, but I'm not seeing the value of backing this over getting it at discounted retail a year or two later
I've also played a bit of DzC (one of our local store players won the GenCon tourney two years ago, and came in second last year). Most of us ended up not being a huge fan of the rules, although we loved the models...
Hence my interest here - Andy "Mr. BFG" Chambers for the rules, Dave Lewis for the models - a match made in heaven
RiTides wrote: I've also played a bit of DzC (one of our local store players won the GenCon tourney two years ago, and came in second last year). Most of us ended up not being a huge fan of the rules, although we loved the models...
Hence my interest here - Andy "Mr. BFG" Chambers for the rules, Dave Lewis for the models - a match made in heaven
Sorta where i am, RITides.
I initially bought in at the second to hugest pre order level ($350ish maybe?) and even magnetized all my PHR models so they could be carried and dropped....but the rules of the game fell very flat to us.
These dropfleet models look great, but in having trouble getting pulled in because of my previous experiences.
Plus it's hard for any IP to beat out Star Wars and Halo for my fleet battles. Only one that could has zero interest in auxiliary games. My god what I would do for a battle of Calth box that explored all the combat going on above the planet's surface.....
Must be different strokes for different folks. While I enjoy Xwing and Armada I cant see those even being fleet games like Drop Fleet. Armada will have 5 ships or so available to the imperial faction by the time Drop Fleet is released. Armada just doesn't have the variety I need in a space game. This will have multiple factions with a good starting variety of shops.
The DZC rules I find very refreshing to 40k and my local community is having a large uptick in DZC players. So I'm really happy to see Hawk succeeding in this. Should help bring more players into the game.
Cincy - well to be clear I am all over this game . It looks to me like my one reservation with their company (rules ability) has been most ably addressed, and the models are fantastic!
RiTides wrote: Cincy - well to be clear I am all over this game . It looks to me like my one reservation with their company (rules ability) has been most ably addressed, and the models are fantastic!
Indeed they are. I've managed to grab one of the metal UCM New Orleans Strike Cruisers earlier this year - it's a lovely detailed piece that painted up nicely. Can't wait for the plastics.
I think they said the renders of PHR won't be done until the end of next week, since they didn't plan for PHR to be unlocked until three weeks into the campaign...
Yeah, they've said that they won't have renders of them for a while. Though hopefully they'll show us the concepts sooner than that.
They did post in the comments a few hours ago saying that they were working on an update to post in the next few hours. So, any time now, there could be another update.
RiTides wrote: Cincy - well to be clear I am all over this game . It looks to me like my one reservation with their company (rules ability) has been most ably addressed, and the models are fantastic!
You'll have to teach it to me at adopticon or something.
The models are beautiful.
I should give the videos a watch.
I think a lot will depend on how much $$ I drop on the 27th Christmas shopping.
Hulksmash wrote: An Update would be nice with pictures of the PHR.
Hopefully everyone will be back to work today after taking the opening weekend off, so maybe we'll see them soon.
Mymearan wrote:I think they said the renders of PHR won't be done until the end of next week, since they didn't plan for PHR to be unlocked until three weeks into the campaign...
I'm happy for their success but great googaly moogaly? I get a limited launch for specific products (i.e. plastic starters/sprues). I'm ok with this plan like CMoN has been doing lately where things are planned out and they don't have a problem saying "Thanks, we're done.". But shouldn't you have everything ready for such a project, especially renders, of the 4 primary fleet factions if your goal is to get them all in plastic? I mean renders should at least exist simply because if they don't make it in plastic they'd still be designing them in resin right?
The planning and execution on this leave a lot to be desired. But at least it's doing well
I think they just didn't expect to get this far this quickly (well, they've said as much!). One thing that I've noticed about Hawk - they make a great product and offer it up as-is... they were one of the last major games to launch without a Kickstarter. It was really impressive to me how he did everything for DzC, then revealed it to the world to great success.
I think here, we're seeing it a bit earlier in the process - two main factions done and basically ready to tool the molds, second two factions not quite ready. They don't offer up concept art or anything like that - it's just still in Dave's head / CAD screen being worked out.
I am really looking forward to seeing the PHR though (likely next week), and the other Bolt-on cruisers, although those have been mentioned as coming at the end of Nov. So, I may just stick with the split of the two-starter pledge, and wait to get the big ships when they launch (since any bolt-on here will still be just a variant cruiser).
At first I was a little bummed at the scope but now that I see exactly what they're offering, and given their history, I'm happy to just get the core stuff and await more awesomeness in the summer launch as I'm sure they'll be beavering away on incredible models to supplement the core between now and then!
I finally took a look at this and I'm kind of blown away by the miniatures. I know Hawk can pull this off, but it's almost inspirational to see the quality of the product the dude can put out.
The KS was actually just intended for the starter-box and they hoped that with a lot of luck they would barely be able to to de other two starters. They were floored by the amount of money thrown at them.
£240k - Nocturnal Map Set (Bolt-on)
£250k - Kickstarter Exclusive Paper Radar Map (Bolt-on)
--- Other Stretch goals will be added ----
£300k - High Rank Backers - 1 Free Shaltari Frigate Sprue (makes 4 Frigates)
--- Other Stretch goals will be added ----
£350k - High Rank Backers - 1 Free PHR Frigate Sprue (makes 4 Frigates)
As well as the following targets for free rewards too:
£300k - 1 Free Shaltari Cruiser Sprue (makes 1 cruiser with all upgrades)
£350k - 1 Free PHR Cruiser Sprue (makes 1 cruiser with all upgrades)
£500k - Frigate Bonanza (Super Reward) 4 Frigates for each race (16 Frigates total!)
Backer number Free Rewards:
2000 backers: UCM Credit (more information to follow)
3000 backers: UCM Dog Tag (more information to follow)
As listed above, there will be more stretch goals and Bolt-ons added to this list in between some of the higher goals. Keep an eye out for these on the Kickstarter Campaign and we will send an update about more of these soon.
Before we go, here's an update about the Bases for everyone to look at too:
This bases update has been posted into the campaign page for all to see as well!
Thanks again for everyone who has backed the Kickstarter so far, and we look forward to sharing more information with you very soon.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: The KS was actually just intended for the starter-box and they hoped that with a lot of luck they would barely be able to to de other two starters. They were floored by the amount of money thrown at them.
Which still indicates poor planning.
It's not the end of the world, but there are folks that are understandably hesitant when a company is poorly prepared for a KS launch.
On that base - Oh man, I think I'm in love. The color will show how "visible" that ship is to others, and the altitude indicator, along with damage, all right there... very cool!
It does look like the fire arcs won't come painted (it says "painting optional") - but as these are aimed at miniature gamers who will be painting the actual models too, that shouldn't be an issue (since they're raised and thus easy to paint white).
I was torn on that Eldarain, but we didn't make one yet - with the smaller scale, I feel like it's harder for the cubes to blend in, and a lot of the book-keeping for DzC comes from remembering which units are supposed to activate together, rather than buffs / debuffs / etc. I think it's very likely we'll make a set for Dropfleet if it needs extra tokens but I love the fact they've put so much info on the base that they're already cutting down on the amount of book-keeping needed!
I like the BFG-throwback of areas in which to paste names on the ship bases, plus pre-made stickers for that. It feels odd in a ship game to not have your individual vessels named, especially with the system of having them in various split battlegroups. It'd certainly help identification.
It's not the end of the world, but there are folks that are understandably hesitant when a company is poorly prepared for a KS launch.
Their planning was realistic at that point in time. But sometimes life does not hand you only lemons but flowers and you are floored by how much support you suddenly can find.
With all the content here, I think it'd be best to let those who don't like the campaign structure to have the last word / not continue to go back and forth about it. Hawk is running a different kind of campaign, and it's certainly not going to be for everyone. Once they show off the PHR renders next week at least we will have all of the main content and folks can just decide based on the offerings whether to back or wait for retail . It's a limited campaign, there is both good and bad to that... it's not a problem to have differing opinions, but it'd be great not to continue having a circular discussion on it.
Regardless of all that, these are some good guys (and very approachable at the conventions they go to, although they're always swamped!) so it's great to see them doing so well with the funding progress
Dear all,
just to make this completely clear in in case of confusion, we will 100% not be releasing the UCMF Atlantis as a bolt on. This model will only ever be available to backers at Captain and Admiral level. While we are doing Shaltari, Scourge and PHR battlecruisers latter in the campaign, and there may be something else for the UCM at that point (information pending), the Atlantis will not be available as a bolt on at any point, or for retail at any point.
Thanks as ever,
- The Hawk Team
Dear Jason,
you are correct - The Atlantis, and all Kickstarter exclusive Battlecruisers are special ships designed for fun games and scenarios. Their rules will be released online, and they are designed to be used as proxy models for standard ships of the same class, to be released later.
The exclusivity is designed to come from the cool model, and not rules - having and of the exclusives will only mean you have an unbalanced advantage in fun games, similar to having one of the special commanders from Dropzone Commander. As ever with our games, we want to make them about balance rather than 'buying a win'.
- The Hawk Team
It's not the end of the world, but there are folks that are understandably hesitant when a company is poorly prepared for a KS launch.
Their planning was realistic at that point in time. But sometimes life does not hand you only lemons but flowers and you are floored by how much support you suddenly can find.
I call a bit of bull. They were "hoping" this would pay for a plastic starter. Were they just going to put out the plastic starter with no support? Probably not. So they would then be planning on releasing I'm assuming the primary factions they have had since day 1. They even have said they thought PHR would be opened up like in week 3. So they obviously were planning beyond the starter and it's piss poor planning to me.
Granted, they're doing very well and it's likely to be a great success. And I'm happy for them. If this picks up locally I could see playing it. It's going to have to go up against Armada here but it'll have a solid shot if they do it well. FSA never really took off but I hope this does. Because they have plastic space ships
Additionally I'm looking forward to the PHR images. I'll probably go in captain on this if it hits 500k because I see the value in that one. I'll just pick up the PHR fleet at retail because the bolt-on is likely more than retain with a 20-30% off discount.
but is probably needed).
...
just not sure if it can help point to non-Shaltari faction strength more than even a single bigger event...
(and more appropriate than having the Resistance have access to spaceships, really).
