I think it's very clear now that Hawk are a company that puts cash before customers. No one can claim they are the nice little community orientated games company. They have known for a long time they where going to struggle despatching pledges. Rather than do the right thing and reach out to a specialised fulfilment company for advice they have decided to fit it in between packing and producing retail knowing full well it will make the situation worse just to take more cash in. They have known for a very long time they where going to screw people and they simply don't care.
Thebiggesthat wrote: Just a reminder that Kickstarter isn't a pre order service. Please desist from using it in future if this is your expectation.
I presume that Hawk will desist from repeatedly making promises that they can't keep in future then? That is really the issue here, although the sheer length of time it is taking Hawk to deliver pledges is starting to take the piss at this stage.
Thebiggesthat wrote: Just a reminder that Kickstarter isn't a pre order service. Please desist from using it in future if this is your expectation.
You paid to get a game made, and in return you have been given content at a reduced rate. Enjoy.
However adding a Starter Fleet to your KS Pledge was 4 cents MORE than what I paid at Spiel in Essen in OCTOBER. And my pledge hasn't arrived weeks later.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I think it's very clear now that Hawk are a company that puts cash before customers. No one can claim they are the nice little community orientated games company. They have known for a long time they where going to struggle despatching pledges. Rather than do the right thing and reach out to a specialised fulfilment company for advice they have decided to fit it in between packing and producing retail knowing full well it will make the situation worse just to take more cash in. They have known for a very long time they where going to screw people and they simply don't care.
A few things here. And as a note, I don't have my 500$ commodore pledge yet myself.
If you want to get pissy about their company and say they only care about money, go play a Games workshop game. I am pissed its taken so long, but your quite wrong.
They do have retailer contracts they must keep. They can delay them a bit, but at the end of the day it has to happen. Why? Because if they don't fill the retail orders, retailers wont carry their product. No product is no sales, no sales is Hawk is a dead company and your DFC and DZC is a dead game.
Dave really does care. I've spoken to him at Gencon and there's nothing more he wants then happy players. Why do you think they fix and balance rules so much? He was on CAD for 16 hours a day during the creation of DFC, that's a good bit of dedication to the game.
Yea, they screwed up bad on this KS. I personally hope they never do a KS again, but they are not money grabbing thiefs (See reference games workshop).
Take your rage elsewhere please, or back it up with facts.
And for all that is good in this world, people need to stop saying "you get so much stuff for a reduced price". You can literally get all of DFC 25% off retail which is so close to what you get for the pledge amount its not funny.
Let's take it down a notch in this thread - Rule #1 on Dakka is "Be Polite."
Please stick to discussing the topic, not the posters - people are entitled to different views as long as they are expressed politely.
Thanks all
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On a personal note, I actually had the opposite experience with Hawk previously - Miniature Market cancelled and refunded a huge DzC order of mine because they couldn't get stock after a long delay. It could be that Hawk is trying to avoid another such outcome... but obviously no one's happy about the situation
Just hang in there a bit longer, and hopefully they will update thoroughly on their progress again this week (which was lacking before but they've finally realized they need to do).
RiTides wrote: Let's take it down a notch in this thread - Rule #1 on Dakka is "Be Polite."
Please stick to discussing the topic, not the posters - people are entitled to different views as long as they are expressed politely.
Thanks all
---
On a personal note, I actually had the opposite experience with Hawk previously - Miniature Market cancelled and refunded a huge DzC order of mine because they couldn't get stock after a long delay. It could be that Hawk is trying to avoid another such outcome... but obviously no one's happy about the situation
Just hang in there a bit longer, and hopefully they will update thoroughly on their progress again this week (which was lacking before but they've finally realized they need to do).
To be fair, it's not like Hawk hasn't had stock issues in the past.
I have to say that it is getting a little annoying. I was a late backer and as such basicly paid retail but got the exclusives and told i would get it month or so before retail.
As such I was ok with delays and did not even complain when the inital KS stock was diverted to retail. I was less impressed.by the months of radio silence despite them having to have known they were going to break there promise.
Now they are talking but mostly providing bs excuses and half truths, the whole only 200 only left to pack ignoring that they still had not posted the previous 800 packages.
Now my lfg has battleships and launch assets and I have didley squat. The local scene is starting to cool due to Shiltari fatigue and I could be stuck with a dead game by the time Hawk decides to provide my paid for goods without diverting them to store for another pay day.
My problem is that after being hyped from the end of the Kickstarter to the fulfilment date, that hype has been steadily dropping for several months... to the point where I've basically moved on to other stuff, started projects I wouldn't have started had I got my DFC stuff, put money into other things that are getting me hyped... there's not much excitement left in me for DFC.
nekooni wrote: Lets see if the 4 battleships I just ordered from the UK will arrive before my pledge shipping notice arrives
At this point I'm no longer wondering if I'm getting my pledge before Christmas (I'm betting after the New Year), so put me down for "battleships first"
Thebiggesthat wrote: Just a reminder that Kickstarter isn't a pre order service. Please desist from using it in future if this is your expectation.
You paid to get a game made, and in return you have been given content at a reduced rate. Enjoy.
Can we please kill this meme? When the company promises you will get the product before launch if you support the Kickstarter, they are claiming to be a pre-order service. I realize in our nerd subcultures there's all kinds of tendency to blindly support the company that sells what we buy, but you are allowed to think Dropfleet is a good game without telling everyone who is unhappy with their service that it's somehow the customers' fault.
I think it is worth saying that there is a bit of leeway a KS deserves to accomplish these goals.
I've got no problem with anyone who wants to give them leeway. All businesses make promises sometimes, all businesses fail to deliver those promises sometimes, and customers all over the world choose to give businesses a little bit of leeway at their discretion because we're all human and we all understand that mistakes happen sometimes. But we all get to personally decide what the limits of our leeway are. If I go to a fancy restaurant, maybe I'm okay waiting 30 minutes for my meal to be delivered without the manager coming out, explaining the situation, apologizing, and giving me a voucher. But my being okay with it doesn't mean that you have to be. And if you're unhappy with your service and instead of mustering up some basic sympathy for you, I try to silence your complaints by saying you shouldn't have gone to a fancy restaurant if you wanted your food in a timely manner, that's pretty terrible of me.
No one should be blaming the customers for Hawk not fulfilling their promises.
I've got no problem with anyone who wants to give them leeway. All businesses make promises sometimes, all businesses fail to deliver those promises sometimes, and customers all over the world choose to give businesses a little bit of leeway at their discretion because we're all human and we all understand that mistakes happen sometimes. But we all get to personally decide what the limits of our leeway are. If I go to a fancy restaurant, maybe I'm okay waiting 30 minutes for my meal to be delivered without the manager coming out, explaining the situation, apologizing, and giving me a voucher. But my being okay with it doesn't mean that you have to be. And if you're unhappy with your service and instead of mustering up some basic sympathy for you, I try to silence your complaints by saying you shouldn't have gone to a fancy restaurant if you wanted your food in a timely manner, that's pretty terrible of me.
No one should be blaming the customers for Hawk not fulfilling their promises.
Yea I wasn't disagreeing with you.
I was pointing out it is cool to be upset and that some problems are understandable especially with kickstarter, but Hawk has been past that point for a while.
I got my Commodore stuff last week, but I really did not dig not into it deep because I am painting Burning of Prospero stuff right now. Perhaps I will take a closer look at everything at the weekend. Hopefully everybody gets their pledges soon!
Mymearan wrote: My problem is that after being hyped from the end of the Kickstarter to the fulfilment date, that hype has been steadily dropping for several months... to the point where I've basically moved on to other stuff, started projects I wouldn't have started had I got my DFC stuff, put money into other things that are getting me hyped... there's not much excitement left in me for DFC.
That's largely my problem, as well. I've backed a lot of KS projects, not all of them games, so I'm definitely used to late fulfillment (and, sadly, even no fulfillment). This one has slid from "I can't wait to get it" to "eh, it'll get here when it gets here".
That's kind of been the tragedy of many KS projects I think. By the time the product arrives there have usually been a half-dozen missteps and enthusiasm has cratered. That there are delays is to be expected even from a normal business; I usually mention that FFG's announcements are usually about a quarter off from when the product is actually delivered. I do believe there's something of a disconnect between backers and creators on what should happen when things go wrong. Most creators treat it like run-of-the-mill and don't say anything, because these things happen. It would appear in their mind these people are consumers just like any other, and sausage-making is not discussed with consumers.
I personally don't think that's a great model for a KS, though there's obviously a balance between that and full daily disclosure to maintain interest. Being treated as just another wallet is probably a dumb way to approach people who are willing to extend faith to a company. Between the communications failures and the obvious logistical issues that have plagued them, let's hope Hawk is at least smart and can learn from their mistakes since they opted not to be wise and learn them from someone else.
Sorry to hear that some of you guys are still waiting. It seems I was lucky to have received my shipment when I did, although I only pledged for the 2 Player Starter Set.
As a side note, in 2014 I pre-ordered a resistance army from Hawk directly. By early October I hadn't received any notification of its whereabouts. I decided to shoot them an email, and did so again ten days later after having read a forum post requesting the same to be done - I received a reply to both of those messages.
A month then passed, still without any news. It seemed that many people had received their sets already, so I tried again. Almost immediately I received a very apologetic email, and then my parcel was delivered very quickly thereafter. They also included a free Fire Wagons blister and a note, which was nice.
Not that this relates to this Kickstarter, but I suppose it shows that they do care. They're really nice models by the way... awaiting a coat of paint, some day
I was actually one of the very first backers to this kickstarter. Still have not received anything, including a shipping email. I ordered a 2-up, battleship, and even other things. I am somewhat disappointed that I will not receive it before Christmas.
What email address are you all using? I tried contacting them through the Kickstarter and never received a reply.
At this point, I just want to know if they have even sent it yet. Packages are being stolen locally, and it would help to know whether mine has already gone missing or when I should keep an eye out.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What email address are you all using? I tried contacting them through the Kickstarter and never received a reply.
At this point, I just want to know if they have even sent it yet. Packages are being stolen locally, and it would help to know whether mine has already gone missing or when I should keep an eye out.
They are shipped with a signature requirement that cannot be waived. So the only way it could be 'stolen' is if the delivery person delivered it to the wrong address and someone there signed for it. In the US at least they are shipped via UPS so you can set up a UPS 'My Choice' account and you will get a notification from UPS when something is headed to your address whether the shipper gives you one or not.
That puts my mind at ease considerably. Thanks, guys!
I wouldn't even mind if they moved my shipment to the end of the queue to get everyone else theirs that much sooner, just so long as I know for sure it will arrive at all.
Also got mine via UPS that needed a sig, even though I said on my account to skip the sig.
You can also pay 8$ to have it arrive in a window when you think youll be home. So instead of 9 to 1 PM, I paid 8 bucks to get it from 9-11, which it came shortly after 9
str00dles1 wrote: You can also pay 8$ to have it arrive in a window when you think youll be home. So instead of 9 to 1 PM, I paid 8 bucks to get it from 9-11, which it came shortly after 9
You have to pay extra for that? Here in Japan all the delivery companies just do it for free.
More on topic, I've finally found the time to crack open a couple sprues, and while the designs are good, the gates seem unusually thick to me. So much so that on smaller parts like UCM gun turrets I struggle to cut them without bending the piece. Also I have the habit of trimming off unused parts of sprue as I go to keep my bits box as small as possible, but for the first time I've ever seen the frame parts of the sprue are so thick that my cutters can't open wide enough to get around them.
str00dles1 wrote: You can also pay 8$ to have it arrive in a window when you think youll be home. So instead of 9 to 1 PM, I paid 8 bucks to get it from 9-11, which it came shortly after 9
You have to pay extra for that? Here in Japan all the delivery companies just do it for free.
More on topic, I've finally found the time to crack open a couple sprues, and while the designs are good, the gates seem unusually thick to me. So much so that on smaller parts like UCM gun turrets I struggle to cut them without bending the piece. Also I have the habit of trimming off unused parts of sprue as I go to keep my bits box as small as possible, but for the first time I've ever seen the frame parts of the sprue are so thick that my cutters can't open wide enough to get around them.
I clipped off all extra bits with the P3 clippers. It does almost look like it wont fit but for those it cuts it well
Got my Commodore today, shipping notice last week. Very happy with my stuff, it's all there bar two small bases and the quality is outstanding. Love the rule book as well, very professional and slick. Only disappointment is the horribly flimsy paper-thin cardboard tokens.
Mymearan wrote: Got my Commodore today, shipping notice last week. Very happy with my stuff, it's all there bar two small bases and the quality is outstanding. Love the rule book as well, very professional and slick. Only disappointment is the horribly flimsy paper-thin cardboard tokens.
Mostly because they made acrylic tokens that fit your armies main color, red green white and purple I believe. Think those comes in KS wave 2.
After how thin the DZC tokens were, I learned when they offered them in this one to grab em
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Anyone gotten the space station set yet? I'd love to see it in the wild.
Ordered from FLGS on Monday. Said it might show up today so going to call in the afternoon and see.
The launch assets are meh. While I know its all to scale and having 3d models of it is just a luxury item tokens seem better. They are highly flimsy and realistically you want 2 packs of them. I already see them breaking after a few uses
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Anyone gotten the space station set yet? I'd love to see it in the wild.
Yes, I have it but haven't built it yet. It's... daunting, to say the least.
My sentiments exactly! I gave mine to Wehrkind, will see if he does anything with it . But it is a briefcase of plastic all on its own, and by far the best looking sprues of the lot, imo!
Got a notification, but they totally mangled the Company Name on the delivery address.It's a long name, but cutting off on BOTH sides ? That's a new one.
nekooni wrote: Got a notification, but they totally mangled the Company Name on the delivery address.It's a long name, but cutting off on BOTH sides ? That's a new one.
Yes, from our temporal-sequential perspective, that is weird, but it makes sense if you consider Hawk Wargames' beginning-and-endpoint language of simultaneity. Unfortunately, a viewpoint outside of linear times that considers all effects and causes interchangeable does have its downside when it comes to shipping packages.
nekooni wrote: Got a notification, but they totally mangled the Company Name on the delivery address.It's a long name, but cutting off on BOTH sides ? That's a new one.
Yes, from our temporal-sequential perspective, that is weird, but it makes sense if you consider Hawk Wargames' beginning-and-endpoint language of simultaneity. Unfortunately, a viewpoint outside of linear times that considers all effects and causes interchangeable does have its downside when it comes to shipping packages.
But isn't it more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey...stuff ?
I can't overstate how happy I am now that I've actually got my stuff. My annoyance was turned into wonder the minute I started assembling the ships. They are so. Damn. Cool! The designs are even more stunning in the flesh, they go together well and are quite a bit bigger than I expected as well. The rule book is also a highlight, lavishly produced with great photos and art, the rules are well written and often give me that "oh! That's clever" feeling, just like a good rule set should. The factions feel very different both fluff- and gameplay wise and everything seems well-thought out. I can see myself getting interested in this universe, taking it seriously in a way I never could with, say, Mantic. overall I feel incredible inspired to start playing this game now, whereas I was sort of mildly disinterested a week ago.
Theophony wrote: Any word on actual gameplay? I skipped the KS due to funds, but it looks interesting.
Look in Dakka Discussions, there's a thread there. Also check the DFC Facebook group which is great.
Mymearan wrote: I can't overstate how happy I am now that I've actually got my stuff. My annoyance was turned into wonder the minute I started assembling the ships. They are so. Damn. Cool! The designs are even more stunning in the flesh, they go together well and are quite a bit bigger than I expected as well. The rule book is also a highlight, lavishly produced with great photos and art, the rules are well written and often give me that "oh! That's clever" feeling, just like a good rule set should. The factions feel very different both fluff- and gameplay wise and everything seems well-thought out. I can see myself getting interested in this universe, taking it seriously in a way I never could with, say, Mantic. overall I feel incredible inspired to start playing this game now, whereas I was sort of mildly disinterested a week ago.
Theophony wrote: Any word on actual gameplay? I skipped the KS due to funds, but it looks interesting.
Look in Dakka Discussions, there's a thread there. Also check the DFC Facebook group which is great.
I am also excited to get our stuff finally. Though im still a bit reserved on how I feel about them currently. I cant forgive them for failing so hard with the KS, but I appreciate their work.
Will be curious to see how wave 2 is done as I am to get all the maps, acrylic tokens, and possibly other things.
Rulebook is good, I just wish it wasn't in the lay out it is. I know its homage to battle fleet gothis, its just a paint to use though during games as it takes up so much space.
Theophony wrote: Any word on actual gameplay? I skipped the KS due to funds, but it looks interesting.
its Battlefleet Gothic with better shooting rules, faster gameplay and heavily objective based.
Andy Chambers wrote the rules and it looks very much like BFG 2.0.
It has quite a few elements in common with BFG and other space ship games but has its own unique elements such as the scan/signature mechanic, orbital layers.
The models are very good and easy to convert which is nice.
Does anyone know the proper channel to go through for getting a mispack (eventually) resolved? One of the pieces for my Atlantis battle cruiser is actually for the Avalon.
Aside from that, very impressed the quality of everything I received.
well at least DPD works fast AND efficient - I've received a notice telling me they'll deliver tomorrow AND I was able to fix the messed up address, too - so there's just one issue left: I planned 2 games of 40k AND a visit to my parents this weekend. feth me.
Hopefully not the only one to notice beasts of war station looks awfully like Babylon 5.....
I'm really surprised that so far all 3 of my fellow opponents have seen neither that show or BSG - very odd as both are great for space combat and illustrate stuff like point defence etc
Had a great game last night where , despite using 4 nukes and getting -4 VP , was able to win.
After the last update I sent an enquiry as I have received no notification at all... A few hours later I received a small email that they are going to check... since then silence.
Honestly I really would like to have it before Christmas because that is only time of year where I have the leisure to paint things... And I was really looking forward to it.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I wonder if some backers have 'fallen out of the database' like happened with mantic on the dungeon saga KS (think that was the one)
hawk won't find out until they start wading through the mass of 'where's my stuff' emails a lot of which will be redundant by them
(hopefully i'm wrong, but there do seem to be a lot of folk on various forums still waiting )
This apparently has happened to at least one person per the KS comments, which may be why Hawk asked people to contact them to confirm the status of their orders.
(Mine is apparently stuck somewhere in England for weather I think).
Hawk Dave does some explaining. Basically it seems to boil down to Hawk's planning being inadequate, particularly their shipping arrangements. To be honest I'm surprised that they were as unprepared as they apparently were.
It is 40 minutes long though and I have only skimmed it.
All the pledges have now been packed and they are 'nearly' finished shipping.
Alpharius - He's in D.C., although it seems pretty random what order pledges are fulfilled in (we backed at the same time and I got mine a while ago, although it was a Lieutenant with add-ons).
Hawk Dave does some explaining. Basically it seems to boil down to Hawk's planning being inadequate, particularly their shipping arrangements. To be honest I'm surprised that they were as unprepared as they apparently were.
I found Dave quite relatable on this. I'm not ready to forgive yet, but I understand.
That BoW host though, he's driving me up the wall. Dave is finally apologizing and explaining without qualification. Don't jump in after every statement with an excuse for him!
Hawk Dave does some explaining. Basically it seems to boil down to Hawk's planning being inadequate, particularly their shipping arrangements. To be honest I'm surprised that they were as unprepared as they apparently were.
I found Dave quite relatable on this. I'm not ready to forgive yet, but I understand.
That BoW host though, he's driving me up the wall. Dave is finally apologizing and explaining without qualification. Don't jump in after every statement with an excuse for him!
Hawk Dave does some explaining. Basically it seems to boil down to Hawk's planning being inadequate, particularly their shipping arrangements. To be honest I'm surprised that they were as unprepared as they apparently were.
I found Dave quite relatable on this. I'm not ready to forgive yet, but I understand.
That BoW host though, he's driving me up the wall. Dave is finally apologizing and explaining without qualification. Don't jump in after every statement with an excuse for him!
Just a guess... is it Warren?
I don't know his name, but it's really obnoxious. A person can't apologize without admitting they did something wrong. I'm going to give Dave the credit that he was sincerely trying to apologize, admit he did wrong, and explain how and why it happened. And literally almost every other sentence he tried to do just that, the host jumped in making excuses for him and defending him from his own apology. He effectively co-opted Dave's apology/explanation into a "kickstarters are harder than you think!" argument, which didn't add anything useful to the video. I get the impression either his enthusiasm for the game or his friendship with Dave got in the way of his duty as a video host to let Dave get across his message without interfering with it.
But nevertheless, assuming that like Dave promised in the video that all of the final shipments are out or imminently heading out, I think Hawk has gotten over the three biggest hurdles in this whole debacle: they got the Kickstarter delivered, they admitted what they did wrong, and they communicated with their customers. Now if only they can resolve the last few Kickstarter hiccups and demonstrate that they're not going to make the same mistakes again, I think they can move on from this.
Hawk just posted a KS update that there are only 20 pledges left to ship. In the first hour or two of comments at least 12 people have posted that they have not received their pledges or shipping notices. Its seems a virtual certainty at this point that some undetermined number of pledges are unaccounted for. Missdirected, lost or just no shipping notices sent.
Is anyone else having trouble contacting hawk war games. I still haven't received anything for my lieutenant pledge, and i've tried emailing them 4 times over the past 2.5 weeks but i still haven't heard anything back. Any other suggestions other then trying the info@hawkwargames address?
spartan059 wrote: Is anyone else having trouble contacting hawk war games. I still haven't received anything for my lieutenant pledge, and i've tried emailing them 4 times over the past 2.5 weeks but i still haven't heard anything back. Any other suggestions other then trying the info@hawkwargames address?
There's a lot of people on the KS page claiming to have sent multiple inquiries and never gotten a response. I think Hawk has a couple other email addresses but the issue seems to be they are just not bothering to reply so I don't know that sending emails to another address would accomplish anything.
From the sound of it most of the staff have either been off ill, out of the office and in birmigham packing KS packages or fighting to keep the office running with almost no staff,
so no doubt emails are piling up unanswered both from KS backers wondering where there stuff is, and from retailers wanting to know when the delayed wave 2 stuff was going to be shipped as a bunch had offered pre-orders which were now delayed
annoying as it is (especially when there is an indication of some KS backers seeming to go missing from the shipping DB) you may just need to give them a week or two post KS shipping finishing for them to catch up as every extra email you and everybody else sends in is just going to compound the problem
(they do have a facebook they are posting on but there's no sign of them actually interacting with anybody on there recently)
The thing is, if you have 100 people and each person is sending 4 emails, that's 400 emails to crossreference.
That's about the amount of emails I have to sort through at work after a week off, it usually takes me most of a day to clear through them, and that's just marking up the 'important' ones and deleting the chaff.
spartan059 wrote: Is anyone else having trouble contacting hawk war games. I still haven't received anything for my lieutenant pledge, and i've tried emailing them 4 times over the past 2.5 weeks but i still haven't heard anything back. Any other suggestions other then trying the info@hawkwargames address?
Be patient. They probably got your mail. They have repeatedly mentioned that they yet have to go through the e-mails regarding missing orders because they did not have the time to do this during the shipping process.
spartan059 wrote: Is anyone else having trouble contacting hawk war games. I still haven't received anything for my lieutenant pledge, and i've tried emailing them 4 times over the past 2.5 weeks but i still haven't heard anything back. Any other suggestions other then trying the info@hawkwargames address?
Did you read the latest up or watch Dave in the latest BOW video?
He said they are going through every single email, and did say to stop sending emails if you have already sent something. You emailing 4 times means its 4 times the amount of work for them to go through and keep track of and pushes other peoples further back in the queue. Multiply that by the amount of people like you sending more then 1 and its a nightmare. They will get to it in order one by one.
You should not need to watch a 40 minute video in the hopes that someone will make a remark helpful to you, especially if it's something as vital as "don't send more emails, we'll respond to them, we promise".
I shouldn't have to watch a video on another site, to find things out. When you email them they say they will respond to you within 5 days. There is nothing even acknowledging that they received anything. You don't know if your mail got sent to a spam folder or whatnot, and when you're dealing with a several hundred dollar pledge with all the add ons that vanished into the ether of the faulty pledge manager, you think they would at least respond saying we got the email and it will be sorted out.
He said they are going through every single email, and did say to stop sending emails if you have already sent something. You emailing 4 times means its 4 times the amount of work for them to go through and keep track of and pushes other peoples further back in the queue. Multiply that by the amount of people like you sending more then 1 and its a nightmare. They will get to it in order one by one.
This was only mentioned on a 40 minute video that was hosted by a third party. None of the recent updates mention anything about emails other than that they are being slowly worked through.
It cant be our problem honestly. If a company does not reply to my e-mails for WEEKS, heck, that's definately not my problem.
I STILL have got nothing. I got one of those standard replies that they're looking into it... Not going to have my set this year which really pisses me off.
RoninXiC wrote: It cant be our problem honestly. If a company does not reply to my e-mails for WEEKS, heck, that's definately not my problem.
I STILL have got nothing. I got one of those standard replies that they're looking into it... Not going to have my set this year which really pisses me off.
Same boat here. I'm a quite patient person and didn't complain on the campaign site even though I'm not particularly happy about the communication and delays but not getting a proper reply after I send them an email they specifically asked for themselves is an insult!
spartan059 wrote: Is anyone else having trouble contacting hawk war games. I still haven't received anything for my lieutenant pledge, and i've tried emailing them 4 times over the past 2.5 weeks but i still haven't heard anything back. Any other suggestions other then trying the info@hawkwargames address?
They responded fairly quickly to me. Had missing bitz and they sent them later in the week
Message them on IG seems to get an instant response (from their social media guy) or post on the forums
fryguy49 wrote: Did a Commodore pledge with add on's. Still have heard nothing. Emailed them about a week ago and still no response.
Same here. Pretty ticked that it's this late. Late backers have started receiving things even....
Had a big demo week and all this stuff sorted for this fall, but it never happened because the two of us that did Commodore pledges have nothing to show for it and now all the hype/interest has died locally basically. Super disappointing.
RoninXiC wrote: Lalala, another week, another week without stuff. Christmas is next week...
I do sincerely hope you get your stuff before Christmas; when the third wave of goodies is being shown off and early proponents of the range are still without the initial offering it's just not good for anyone in the equation.
My continuing disappointment in the handling of the logistics aside, the upcoming products do indeed look quite nice; I can see myself picking up the sector tokens especially. In terms of product in hand, I am happy with what was delivered when it was finally delivered. I've not had a chance to assemble much more than the UCM ships, but those were an enjoyable build and I can see myself expanding the fleets.
It's only a problem because they're using ancient outdated free forum software, phpbb or its clone may even power even this site, but it's not an easy thing to manage and filled with vulnerabilities.
Well, if Hawk isn't able to sent my pledge till XMas it will go right to ebay... What a crap campaign! They will never see a single cent from me again.
SKR.HH wrote: Well, if Hawk isn't able to sent my pledge till XMas it will go right to ebay... What a crap campaign! They will never see a single cent from me again.
Break it up/ part it out. It will sell quickly! Thanks!
My stuff finaly arrived. I have to say I did not pay much attention to the whole box drama and figured it was just the add on's that came sansa box.
So was a little surprised that my 2 player set consisted of a bag of dice 2 bags of sprues and a rule book. I can see now why they took so long even with just a basic pledge like mine.
In my opinion they decided to cut corners on the KS and save a little cash by not supplying the retail box. However I would hazard a guess that any savings made have been used to get stuff picked and packed.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The starter doesn't come with a box? This is the first I've heard about that.
Well if that has not been the norm I am going to be a little pissed tbh. I was a late backer and as such if I paid full retail to get a brown box of sprues 3 months after release then Hawk can go feth themselves and I will not spend another penny on DzC or DfC.
I only did the late backer thing to get the civilian ship and because Hawk said while we would not get the freebies we would get it about 3 months before release. Yeah don't I look like a fething mug now.
If they have just started sending unboxed starters that could lend creadence to 2 theories I have seen.
1. Hawk have been sending the KS starter boxes to stores as restocks and were waiting for another shipment of starters for the KS mugs I mean backers.
2. Hawk are flat broke and have been supplying to retail 1st because of this and while the now have stock they cannot afford to box it and so KS stuff got deverted to store and we get loose sprues.
It's much easier to ship in a boring brown box, than a much bigger, flatter box with the starter box inside it, which was explained pretty early on even before the delays. They've also said several times if you want a box they'll send you one.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How do you store your half-assembled Kickstarter rewards? I use their boxes.
Half-assembled? "on the desk".
Fully-assembled? I'm currently waiting for Feldherr to launch their DfC foam trays. Nor sure if they're available outside Europe though
On the box: I was fine with not getting one but I'd also gladly taken one for the shelf in the gaming room - I imagine that's what most people wanted it for - decoration?
Probably for decoration and maybe storing the books and bits and bobs. Also as much as I gleefully like beating on the dead horse of Hawk's communication hiccups, the part about the box they DID communicate. It was contained in Update #56 on October 21st. Relevant portion:
2) Lack of Retail Packaging in Kickstarter Pledges - We did not intend to ship kickstarter rewards in retail packaging for several reasons. Firstly, with over 7000 2 player starter sets to pack, store and shrink wrap, this would have severely slowed the packing progress, taken up much more space and resulted in an additional 5 Tons of packaging being sent out. Secondly, since these products are not for retail (and therefore do not need to advertise themselves) the additional boxes and plastic shrink are unnecessary.
For such reasons it's common for wargaming Kickstarter rewards to not be shipped in retail packaging. Having said that, it's clear that we didn't communicate this adequately and for that we apologise. As a result, we are working on a solution for backers to obtain 2 Player Starter Set outer boxes for free if they want them once the pledges are all shipped (as any disturbance to the admin/packing process at this stage will cause great disruption). We will let you know more on this in a future Kickstarter update.
Since we're still hearing unfortunate stories of posters here, curiously largely German, not receiving their pledges I would guess we're not past the"once the pledges are all shipped phase" of the operation.
Been putting together some UCM minis, and I have to say that Hawk may have screwed up on the whole shipping part of the KS, but these minis fit together very well and have basically non-existent flash. Whoever designed the molds did a hell of a job, and the plastic works well with Model Master liquid cement for plastics.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How do you store your half-assembled Kickstarter rewards? I use their boxes.
Just on my desk for easy access
John Prins wrote: Been putting together some UCM minis, and I have to say that Hawk may have screwed up on the whole shipping part of the KS, but these minis fit together very well and have basically non-existent flash. Whoever designed the molds did a hell of a job, and the plastic works well with Model Master liquid cement for plastics.
Mostly
PHR has some issues with the engines coming together nicely on the frigates Its so thing an when you shave the connection piece off from the frame it messes up the engine a little, but not much once painted
Scourge also have pretty horrid connection spots where you need to clean.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How do you store your half-assembled Kickstarter rewards? I use their boxes.
Just on my desk for easy access
John Prins wrote: Been putting together some UCM minis, and I have to say that Hawk may have screwed up on the whole shipping part of the KS, but these minis fit together very well and have basically non-existent flash. Whoever designed the molds did a hell of a job, and the plastic works well with Model Master liquid cement for plastics.
Mostly
PHR has some issues with the engines coming together nicely on the frigates Its so thing an when you shave the connection piece off from the frame it messes up the engine a little, but not much once painted
Scourge also have pretty horrid connection spots where you need to clean.
Yeah, the gates on PHR ships aren't great - Although I had more issues with the Cruiser sprues, the gates at the frontal smooth armor were really annoying to me. UCM was a LOT easier and cleaner to assemble, it felt like they've invested all that "we thought about where to put the gates" time into UCM and forgot about the others.
At this point, Hawk claims all the pledges have been shipped yet there are still an awful lot of people who claim to have never received either a shipping notification or a package. I would not be surprised if there are not a couple hundred "shipped" pledges that have gone missing somehow.
Hawk appears to agree that there are probably a couple hundred pledges with some sort of issue. From their latest update:
Apart from pledges with address/shipping queries, or pledges that there have been export issues with, or pledges that were submitted after we began the shipping process, all the parcels have left our warehouse. We are getting through every parcel with address/shipping queries and waiting on replies from some backers regarding these. We are collating information on pledges that have not been exported correctly, by 2 methods: 1 - from emails being sent in to our email account, 2 - by manually checking every dispatch confirmation and checking it against the pledge packing lists. This will be a time-consuming process, but we feel there is no other way of confirming which pledges are missing from our packing list. We will begin shipping the missing pledges out this coming week. Based on early estimates, it look like the number of export error pledges, missed pledges or address queried pledges might be between one hundred and two hundred.
Emphasis added.
Not sure how many late backers there were, but it's still a noticeable issue rate.
Krinsath wrote: Hawk appears to agree that there are probably a couple hundred pledges with some sort of issue. From their latest update:
Apart from pledges with address/shipping queries, or pledges that there have been export issues with, or pledges that were submitted after we began the shipping process, all the parcels have left our warehouse. We are getting through every parcel with address/shipping queries and waiting on replies from some backers regarding these. We are collating information on pledges that have not been exported correctly, by 2 methods: 1 - from emails being sent in to our email account, 2 - by manually checking every dispatch confirmation and checking it against the pledge packing lists. This will be a time-consuming process, but we feel there is no other way of confirming which pledges are missing from our packing list. We will begin shipping the missing pledges out this coming week. Based on early estimates, it look like the number of export error pledges, missed pledges or address queried pledges might be between one hundred and two hundred.
Emphasis added.
Not sure how many late backers there were, but it's still a noticeable issue rate.
That number isn't "late pledges that have issues", it's the total number of pledges with issues, right? so 100-200 out of what, 4000? That's at the worst a 5% issue rate. I don't think that's exceptionally high for such an operation, is it?
Well, another week with no package, no shipping notice and no reply to my email asking where my package and shipping notice are. This is really getting old.
I don't know - that seems like a really high number, and could there really be that many "export" problems?
When I shipped a large batch of packages internationally, there was an issue where some really long addresses were being chopped - but I was able to identify that and resend those packages, of course (and some of the originals eventually came back even!).
It seems like with this number they must have been lost from the packing list somehow - I can't tell if that's something they're listing in their possible problems or not, from the quote above.
That Santiago Corvette does look really sweet, though!
Rememebr Mantic lost 100s of backers details from their Dungeon saga pledge manager,
so its certainly possible, and depending on when the loss has occurred it may be very difficult to figure out who's missing if none of them really understand the database(s) they're using.
(and I suppose there's always the outside chance that they have shipped everything and the postal service has lost a lorry load somewhere along the line in which case they may be trying to track it down rather than end up sending them again)
Yeah, that's basically what I'm wondering - if it's a database issue (also happened to Secret Weapon, right?) rather than a shipping company / logistics issue, as that just seems to be way too high a number to be import/export problems (particularly with seemingly many of those people not getting shipping emails, either).
I am in the same boat. No package. No shipping notice. No response to my Kickstarter message. No reply to my email. No one remembers Dr. Quaice. The universe is a spheroidal region 705 meters in diameter...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am in the same boat. No package. No shipping notice. No response to my Kickstarter message. No reply to my email. No one remembers Dr. Quaice. The universe is a spheroidal region 705 meters in diameter...
I'm starting to get worried here.
510 meters...
This is why I don't do Kickstarters. Sadly I am missing out on all those great Kingdom Death minatures but that is the price I pay for not getting worried. I really hope you universe doesn't shrink because of this. How did that episode end? Leap of faith?
Yep extrapolating the number from various groups, forums, Kickstarter comments etc it's looking like it could be up to 10% that haven't received anything yet and Hawk have just boarded up the windows and shouting "lalalala can't hear you" really loudly.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Yep extrapolating the number from various groups, forums, Kickstarter comments etc it's looking like it could be up to 10% that haven't received anything yet and Hawk have just boarded up the windows and shouting "lalalala can't hear you" really loudly.
Not sure how true that is. Remember there's always the vocal minority, I don't think 10% is anywhere near the number that haven't, and it's not as if they aren't replying to emails, they're just doing so rather slowly because the team is minute.
so its certainly possible, and depending on when the loss has occurred it may be very difficult to figure out who's missing if none of them really understand the database(s) they're using.
(and I suppose there's always the outside chance that they have shipped everything and the postal service has lost a lorry load somewhere along the line in which case they may be trying to track it down rather than end up sending them again)
Oh come on. Second thing you see on the kickstarter page is the number of backers... When you export it's a simple check to see whether you have the same number as on the kickstarter page... IT'S NOT MAGIC. They just fethed up. Easy as that.
Add in Late Backers (who are near enough the same number as those who originally pledged), backers who didn't bother filling out their pledge managers. People who have had buyers remorse and cancelled their pledges. Declined credit cards...
Compel wrote: Add in Late Backers (who are near enough the same number as those who originally pledged), backers who didn't bother filling out their pledge managers. People who have had buyers remorse and cancelled their pledges. Declined credit cards...
And so on and so forth.
Yeah, so what? It was Hawks decision to allow late pledges. If they obviously couldn't handle it they bite more than they can swallow (i.e. they are obviously greedy). And it is their responsibility to have a proper book keeping!
It's a joke that they still have not been able to verify those inquiries. I sent them all relevant information and only got a bs reply of "looking into it". For three weeks! We are months behind and I got squat out of this.
Compel wrote: Add in Late Backers (who are near enough the same number as those who originally pledged), backers who didn't bother filling out their pledge managers. People who have had buyers remorse and cancelled their pledges. Declined credit cards...
And so on and so forth.
And what about me? I am none of those, live 38 miles from their HQ and STILL have not received my pledge! I will be selling my pledge as soon as it arrives. I was going to introduce the game to three separate clubs around here and run link campaigns with DZC but I have lost faith with Hawk and they will have to win back my trust. But the way GW is going I may just wait for them to redo Epic and BFG.
The point was, it's not "a simple check to see whether you have the same number as on the kickstarter page."
In a previous life, I worked in UAT - User Acceptance Testing, for an IT product for use by thousands of users. Turns out stuff involving computers can be pretty complicated (wow, who'da'thunk it, huh?)
There are many other things I want to type here, but they would be snarky (ok, maybe snarkIER), and, more importantly, non constructive.
So, as it's officially Christmas Eve here now, in the spirit of the season, I shall simply say: "I am sorry that everyone who is upset feels that way and I wish you all best of luck for the future."
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I am in the same boat. No package. No shipping notice. No response to my Kickstarter message. No reply to my email. No one remembers Dr. Quaice. The universe is a spheroidal region 705 meters in diameter...
I'm starting to get worried here.
510 meters...
This is why I don't do Kickstarters. Sadly I am missing out on all those great Kingdom Death minatures but that is the price I pay for not getting worried. I really hope you universe doesn't shrink because of this. How did that episode end? Leap of faith?
I don't regret backing. I'm looking forward to getting my stuff, but I am always anxious when there's a chance it got lost in the mail or deleted altogether. In general, I still enjoy the feeling of being a part of something that the best and worst Kickstarter campaigns bring.
So I'm one of the backers with a missing pledge. It's partly my fault - the game was delayed so long I ended up moving to a new house before they even started shipping (second time this has happened with a Kickstarter!) and although I updated my address on their site and emailed them to let them know, that isn't enough. For anyone else in the same boat, if you only change your address on the site, it does not update your order address. You needed to email them the new address. They did reply to inform me of this months ago but somehow I missed it, or misread it. Mea culpa.
Anyway now that I know where things went wrong, I can't seem to get a reply from Hawk. I've emailed them twice in the past two weeks. Does anyone know what I should be doing to make sure I don't slip through the cracks forever?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: So I'm one of the backers with a missing pledge. It's partly my fault - the game was delayed so long I ended up moving to a new house before they even started shipping (second time this has happened with a Kickstarter!) and although I updated my address on their site and emailed them to let them know, that isn't enough. For anyone else in the same boat, if you only change your address on the site, it does not update your order address. You needed to email them the new address. They did reply to inform me of this months ago but somehow I missed it, or misread it. Mea culpa.
Anyway now that I know where things went wrong, I can't seem to get a reply from Hawk. I've emailed them twice in the past two weeks. Does anyone know what I should be doing to make sure I don't slip through the cracks forever?
Close your eyes, cross your fingers and repeat" I believe"
Sorry more srsly you will have as much luck with the above as with sending them an email apperently. I have seen a number of people saying they are waiting for a reply from emails in october.
Late Backer here, just the base game, the space station and Launch Assets. Order status is still Processing if that means anything... Let's wait and see if and when the package shows up...
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: So I'm one of the backers with a missing pledge. It's partly my fault - the game was delayed so long I ended up moving to a new house before they even started shipping (second time this has happened with a Kickstarter!) and although I updated my address on their site and emailed them to let them know, that isn't enough. For anyone else in the same boat, if you only change your address on the site, it does not update your order address. You needed to email them the new address. They did reply to inform me of this months ago but somehow I missed it, or misread it. Mea culpa.
Anyway now that I know where things went wrong, I can't seem to get a reply from Hawk. I've emailed them twice in the past two weeks. Does anyone know what I should be doing to make sure I don't slip through the cracks forever?
NONE OF IT IS YOUR FAULT. This is just bad poor business practice. Simple as that. If you go and update their site that is all that is needed then. Otherwise why have that option on that site then?
It's an evolutionary advantage. The Kickstarter Spider will often spin up a convincing website to lure in potential prey. The prey believes that it has succeeded in passing on its vital information, but instead has simply given the Kickstarter Spider an opportunity to lay its eggs in a hypothalamus that will soon begin producing enough anxiety hormones to nourish the entire clutch of hatchlings.
They definitely didn't want this to happen - it's obviously hurting the launch of the game. So, while I don't want to give them slack in the sense that they need to acknowledge that it's not an import/export problem (but rather a database or similar issue), I think it's clear that this isn't malicious and they just got overwhelmed by the fulfillment process. I.e. no ill intent... but just a bummer for everybody =/
Davor - I do think Dave is just a little awkward, I wouldn't read it the other way at all (that's my impression, at least, from seeing him at a few conventions and prior videos).
nekooni wrote: The last Video i saw had him say there were 100-200 expected issues with missing or incomplete pledges, but maybe im misremembering something?
If the numbers where that low they would have resolved them by now. When this all plays out that number will be much, much higher.
"We will be continuing to dispatch missed pledges over the Christmas period (where shipping allows), and, as mentioned above, our team will be replying to emails too. We will be updating everyone again soon."
Just would like to know if anybody got any update.
I know where you can get them. Entoyment is the best bet you have in the U.K. As they are just down the road from the U.K. Distributor so usually get first dibs.
fryguy49 wrote: I have not heard anything from Hawk wargames yet. I originally emailed them on December 6th about my missing pledge.
December 8th, here. They said then they would look into it and get back to me.
To be fair, looking at the pledge manager, it looks like I might still owe some money, but there is no actual option to pay it, but I also have the emailed receipt confirming my pledge completion.
I emailed them on the 6th of December about my Commander pledge, about ten mins after the email saying that some pledges may not have been exported etc. I didn't hear anything at all until I received a courier shipping notification yesterday morning. Hang in there.
Finally received my shipping notification, although was to my old address despite emailing them to tell them otherwise. At least I was able to change it to pick up from the local shop. Looking forward to seeing my ships!
Hawk Wargames is SMALL. Like maybe five full time employees, and several part time. Since they started shipping DFC, I've noticed just about everything else has stopped. No new blogs, no updates on anything except "We're shipping!", next to no communication at all on the forums (where they have always been chatty), release dates for stuff pushed back with no explanation, they haven't answered any of my e-mails except with the automated e-mail of acknowledgement of receipt. No restructure or update on the main website- still no direct links or page for Drop Fleet Commander. On top of that, it's the holidays.
I'm not trying to make excuses for them. It's obvious they were overwhelmed, didn't have the infrastructure or staff to handle shipping out the Kick Starter Pledges AND continue running the company. Add to that the Holidays and I'm surprised they have done even half of what they did. This is not a unique or first time thing either. It's happened to several other smaller mini's companies that ran a hugely successful Kick Starter: Soda Pop Miniatures and Super Dungeon Explore, and Relic Knights, Cool Mini or Not with Zombicide, Dream Pod Nine and Heavy Gear Blitz, and perhaps the biggest fail of them all: Palladium Games and Robotech (I'm still waiting for wave II from the KS, and it's been literally YEARS, but they keep promising it's on the way...). With the exception of Palladium and Robotech, all these companies eventually delivered on their Kick Starter Pledges. It just took a lot longer than anyone expected.
I hope they are finally moving into the phase of shipping of the "Problem Backers"- the ones that moved, or changed their pledge after the KS closed, etc. etc. And hopefully those are few, but customer service intensive, and again, only a couple employees to handle it. Meanwhile, they have to get the website updated, work on the next wave of ships for DFC, and continued development on DZC. There is also the promised tournament rules, and League rules that Hawk Wargames promised to coincide with the release of the game. Launch assets and the Space Stations finally showed up in my LGS, but I still haven't seen any Starter Sets for the game beyond what first showed up back in early November. I managed to snag a UCM Battleship online, but haven't seen or heard anything about the Cruisers or Frigates that were supposed to be out by now.
My biggest concern: While they are dealing with getting the pledges out the door, development everywhere else has basically stopped. So we may not see anything new for either game until sometime in the summer/fall. That makes me sad.
Hawkwargames is hopelessly overwhelmed right now, and I hope they manage to crawl out of it soon in the new year or things could get ugly for the company.
The cruiser and frigate boxes are listed as Dec/Jan with the sites I've checked, and I vaguely recall seeing in an update that they were pushing the release dates back to January.
They have been working on development though, Hawk shared renders of all the corvettes for DFC and some of the special commanders for DZC before Christmas.
nobody wrote: The cruiser and frigate boxes are listed as Dec/Jan with the sites I've checked, and I vaguely recall seeing in an update that they were pushing the release dates back to January.
They have been working on development though, Hawk shared renders of all the corvettes for DFC and some of the special commanders for DZC before Christmas.
it's pretty possible that these renders had all been done before the KS shipped
Still no package, no shipping notice and no response to my email. I held out longer than many, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt but here on the eve of a new year I'm truly fed up and want my blasted game.
nobody wrote: The cruiser and frigate boxes are listed as Dec/Jan with the sites I've checked, and I vaguely recall seeing in an update that they were pushing the release dates back to January.
They have been working on development though, Hawk shared renders of all the corvettes for DFC and some of the special commanders for DZC before Christmas.
Good to know Cruisers in Jan. After this Ks, I have more Frigates then I could possibly ever need, but I need more cruisers
mdauben wrote: Still no package, no shipping notice and no response to my email. I held out longer than many, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt but here on the eve of a new year I'm truly fed up and want my blasted game.
I hope they are finally moving into the phase of shipping of the "Problem Backers"- the ones that moved, or changed their pledge after the KS closed, etc. etc.
Problem Backers? FYI I provided them all necessary information in time, without error and without anything special in my adress (like special characters) which might excuse any delay from their side. They simply screwed up and are not able to remedy this. Simple as that!
nobody wrote: The cruiser and frigate boxes are listed as Dec/Jan with the sites I've checked, and I vaguely recall seeing in an update that they were pushing the release dates back to January.
They have been working on development though, Hawk shared renders of all the corvettes for DFC and some of the special commanders for DZC before Christmas.
Good to know Cruisers in Jan. After this Ks, I have more Frigates then I could possibly ever need, but I need more cruisers
Yeah they goofed my order and gave me a frigate sprue instead of a cruiser for my UCM for the bonanza bonus, so I have a ton of frigates. I'm not complaining but I desperately need 5 more cruisers for my planned 1500 fleet.
I do find it interesting the mention of "export problem" likely being the IT meaning of the word as in from a database and not the shipping/customs meaning of export. As was mentioned earlier, the pledge manager was run by Bob's favorite company Geiger (who in the interests of disclosure I also strongly dislike) who worked with Mantic on their projects. There was an issue with one of the Mantic campaigns wherein a few hundred pledges were "lost" which needless to say resulted in things not being sent and very upset backers. It could be coincidence, but it seems worth considering as a complication; trying to find missing data is indeed a convoluted process. In the final analysis though even if it was an issue with that system, Hawk picked them to be their subcontractor so they're the ones who need to sort it out.
Hopefully it won't be much longer into the New Year for folks to get put right. It's really is a shame as unlike many projects who struggle and stumble, they're mostly delivering what they showed versus some groups that just shovel whatever they can out the door. I've greatly enjoyed building my fleets and actually have finished assembling everything (which if you saw the vast number of unopened boxes lying around the house is actually a high-order compliment).
As true as it may be, I do believe with the post of "At least it's not Robotech..." that I've scored a KickStarter Bingo! "Book needs another editing pass", "Poor Communication", Delays (the free space), "At least it's not Robotech..." and "Shipping Process of Mystery"!
mdauben wrote: Still no package, no shipping notice and no response to my email. I held out longer than many, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt but here on the eve of a new year I'm truly fed up and want my blasted game.
If it is any consolation: You are not alone.
Oh, I realize that. Didn't Hawk suggest in a recent update that there may be problems with as many as 200 missing pledge shipments?
I hope they are finally moving into the phase of shipping of the "Problem Backers"- the ones that moved, or changed their pledge after the KS closed, etc. etc.
Problem Backers? FYI I provided them all necessary information in time, without error and without anything special in my adress (like special characters) which might excuse any delay from their side. They simply screwed up and are not able to remedy this. Simple as that!
Same here. My pledge manager was filled out correctly and on time and none of my info has changed since then. Hawk simply messed up. Repeatedly.
I don't know why I feel bad. I bought the box set at my not so local gaming store and bought it thinking I might never get the chance to buy it again. Here are people who ordered this what years ago and still haven't received their product?
This is just not right when I can buy my stuff in a store while others who supported Dave don't have nothing. At least Dave can email them and explain why.
Davor wrote: I don't know why I feel bad. I bought the box set at my not so local gaming store and bought it thinking I might never get the chance to buy it again. Here are people who ordered this what years ago and still haven't received their product?
This is just not right when I can buy my stuff in a store while others who supported Dave don't have nothing. At least Dave can email them and explain why.
Errrr, they have, there was a whole video, and several emails about it.
It's basically boiled down Hawk consisting of 5 guys, packing all the pledges themselves, receiving way more funding than they could cope with, and then the specific issues they've encountered with the export problem being really quite labour intensive and slow to sort out. It's both their fault and not their fault. I don't think anything malicious has taken place, it's an honest, if pretty major mistake which they're trying (albeit rather slowly) to sort out. A retail box is way way easier to sort out, I imagine one person could pack most of the retail shipments in a couple of days
winnertakesall wrote: It's both their fault and not their fault. I don't think anything malicious has taken place, it's an honest, if pretty major mistake which they're trying (albeit rather slowly) to sort out.
Maybe rather than asking if they're at fault, we can talk about this in terms of their responsibility. They are 100% responsible for solving the problems.
I understand what you were getting at by saying you don't think anything malicious has taken place (I agree), but talking about the issue of fault opens up the possibility that it could somehow not be Hawk's fault, maybe even in some way it could be the customers' fault. You didn't say that of course, but when we've got people this understandably angry about how their orders have been handled, we need to not allow any possibility that they could be construed to be at fault. Because we already have seen people who are more enthusiastic for this game than they are for their fellow customers try to suggest that anyone who is unhappy is at fault for supporting a Kickstarter. In the end, it doesn't matter who's at fault, it just matters that Hawk take responsibility.
And they have at least formally, though it is of course necessary that they get this problem solved. I know how frustrating it must be to not have your kit, but I'm sure most upset customers also know how unlikely it was that anything happen during the holiday break. I don't know when most people in the UK head back after New Years, but hopefully starting the end of this week we'll see some headway?
It's their mistakes / oversights that lead to the situation, and it's their responsibilty to fix it.
The mistakes they made weren't easily solvable and are somewhat understandable that they were made in the first place - aside from the whole communications debacle. That's not understandable, period. Maybe it's due to my job, but I just don't get why Hawk wasn't able to provide more and better updates - communication is key in all projects, ESPECIALLY where the customer is concerned. Even more so when issues come up. A quick "we're working on it, we did 200 pledges today and the total is 2200/4000" or something.
They did start doing that... but they must be missing some from the pledge manager / database given how many people still are posting that they don't have any shipping notice / etc.
Besides the very lengthy delay, I did get my stuff a few weeks ago.
The miniatures are fantastic, the sprues are loaded with goodies and are a real pleasure to assemble.
The rulebook... is garbage. The "homage" to BFG in terms of it's shape is wholly impractical at the gaming table. Major fail. There is no index or quick references, so finding "that one rule we're not sure about" is taxing. There are rules that contradict the example pictures and there are a LOT of rules interactions that are straight up broken. A FAQ and errata is direly needed.
Played my first game and it's fun. There's a lot going on, but not so much that it's overwhelming. Very tactical in every phase of the game. I put it well ahead of X-Wing and Armada in terms of enjoyment factor.
@katfude yet Hawk claimed the reason they delayed sending the rulebook to the printer was to ensure it would be error free and not require a day one errata. So not only did they delay their own project, they also fethed up the rulebook.
Compel wrote: Where did they claim that? Thanks at sounds like an awfully survivor claim to make there without quotes to hand...
Quote from KS:
We recognise that there has been a delay, and though we have done a lot to try to avoid it, this delay has been caused by a mixture of the following:
•Ensuring the quality of the tooling is to the level we are happy with,
•Additional game testing to fully polish the rules and scenarios,
•Spending a little longer than planned on fine-tuning the design work for both printed items and models.
The relevant update for that quote is update #49 under Question 3.
While it doesn't expressly say it's for the rulebook, that's probably a pretty good guess as the most complicated printed item. The tokens are serviceable, but not exactly rocket science to produce.
I quite like the rulebook itself, but agree it needed much more fine-tuning and better editing. While some typos like "Traffic James" are harmless and amusing, there are seemingly inconsistent stats listed between quickplay and rulebook. That the "groups for list-building" and "groups for gameplay" issue seems to be a thing points at further polish that could readily be applied. The rules themselves seem quite engaging and fun, but the presentation definitely could have been firmed up better. That printed materials were a cited reason for the delay is really the disappointing thing. Supposedly they took longer and that was still the result; makes one shudder to think if that had been done on their original timeframe. It also seems fairly likely the printer introduced a few mishaps to the project, but as we've said that doesn't absolve Hawk of the responsibility on correcting it.
Speaking of printed materials, I do wonder when the delayed map packs will be dispatched with all of the missing pledges still outstanding. Obviously getting things to people who have nothing is more important, but I'm not sure we've heard any mention of that have we?
There's a difference between "fine tuning the design work" and the specific claim of guaranteeing it would be "error free and not require a day one errata"
Some good news at least. Hopefully it gets to you in decent time. Make sure you find the brown envelope, especially if you had a high-rank pledge; it sounds like a cryptic code but it's where the stickers and such will be tucked away and it blends in a bit well with the cardboard. Since I nearly missed it initially and I've seen other folks at various fora mention similar, figured I'd try to keep you from any final stumbling blocks in checking things.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @compel that came direct from a hawk employees mouth at the Cardiff preview day in Firestorm Games.
And Dave has told people at events since launch that Point Defense should be different, that you pull your PD pools together, but without a video or it written anywhere (anywhere being a place that is legit) its all hearsay. Sure, the goal is a perfect book, but that never happens, with any company, ever, as we are humans.
the best thing they could do is make a digital living rulebook for this, and DZC really to edit rules and fix things. Super easy for them, and players. And if you really want, you can print it yourself.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @compel that came direct from a hawk employees mouth at the Cardiff preview day in Firestorm Games.
And Dave has told people at events since launch that Point Defense should be different, that you pull your PD pools together, but without a video or it written anywhere (anywhere being a place that is legit) its all hearsay. Sure, the goal is a perfect book, but that never happens, with any company, ever, as we are humans.
the best thing they could do is make a digital living rulebook for this, and DZC really to edit rules and fix things. Super easy for them, and players. And if you really want, you can print it yourself.
A Living Rulebook is fine for SMALL rulebooks like X-Wing where there's only a few core rules and all the remaining stuff is printed on cards anyway.
I hate using PDFs or anything digital at the table. I've always and will always prefer a hardcover, regular formatted book, preferably in German. And yes, I'm willing to pay extra for each and every one of those features. Had to do so for D&D in the past and would do that for other games, too. It's just that much more convenient.
But a Living Rulebook absolutely kills the ability to offer such a book. I'm not going to buy a new version every month, obviously. So thanks, but no, thanks.
Got my Commander pledge today after a false start last week. T
Some lovely sprues and I think the hardback Dropzone Commander rulebook was a bonus freebie that I don't remember being listed in the backer rewards. Shame about the absence of a game box or UCM credit and the scuffed up slipcase but I don't think any of that will affect my enjoyment of the items. For all the delay and frustrations expressed in the Kickstarter comments the models are great quality,
Tamwulf wrote: Hawk Wargames is SMALL. Like maybe five full time employees, and several part time. Since they started shipping DFC, I've noticed just about everything else has stopped. No new blogs, no updates on anything except "We're shipping!", next to no communication at all on the forums (where they have always been chatty), release dates for stuff pushed back with no explanation, they haven't answered any of my e-mails except with the automated e-mail of acknowledgement of receipt. No restructure or update on the main website- still no direct links or page for Drop Fleet Commander. On top of that, it's the holidays.
I'm not trying to make excuses for them. It's obvious they were overwhelmed, didn't have the infrastructure or staff to handle shipping out the Kick Starter Pledges AND continue running the company. Add to that the Holidays and I'm surprised they have done even half of what they did. This is not a unique or first time thing either. It's happened to several other smaller mini's companies that ran a hugely successful Kick Starter:
Respectfully, I disagree. If they saw that they were reaching numbers of pledges their staff of five (your estimate) couldn't handle then they should either have budgeted for additional temp staff immediately or closed the campaign early since it funded. Instead, they wanted their cake and to eat it too unfortunately. I posted a few months back in the thread because I thought that Hawk was being tarred unfairly with the same brush as other blatantly dishonest companies but I think the reasonable extra time post retail shipping has past and backers have a genuine right to be pissed now. Ymmv but Hawk still had the chance to hire additional temp workers with the leftover money or even new money from the retail orders they prioritized over backers as well as to correct mistakes with their pledge manager export... from the reports in this thread (not a backer personally as I hitched my wagon to the Halo Fleet Battles fail train) neither seems to have happened to an acceptable degree and a holiday play season was missed by seemingly plenty of the most loyal fans. While I don't attribute any malice on their part (unlike with Prodos or Palladium), I think we're firmly in the "backers are a low priority because of their own lack of planning" phase of fulfillment and I as a gamer can't hand wave that off as acceptable. Ymmv.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @compel that came direct from a hawk employees mouth at the Cardiff preview day in Firestorm Games.
And Dave has told people at events since launch that Point Defense should be different, that you pull your PD pools together, but without a video or it written anywhere (anywhere being a place that is legit) its all hearsay. Sure, the goal is a perfect book, but that never happens, with any company, ever, as we are humans.
the best thing they could do is make a digital living rulebook for this, and DZC really to edit rules and fix things. Super easy for them, and players. And if you really want, you can print it yourself.
A Living Rulebook is fine for SMALL rulebooks like X-Wing where there's only a few core rules and all the remaining stuff is printed on cards anyway.
I hate using PDFs or anything digital at the table. I've always and will always prefer a hardcover, regular formatted book, preferably in German. And yes, I'm willing to pay extra for each and every one of those features. Had to do so for D&D in the past and would do that for other games, too. It's just that much more convenient.
But a Living Rulebook absolutely kills the ability to offer such a book. I'm not going to buy a new version every month, obviously. So thanks, but no, thanks.
So you prefer buying multiples of the same book, because its physical for you? Seems a little silly. Look at Dropzone 1.0 Lots of errors. Hence why 1.1 was released. Its not fun buying the same thing. Its a digital age. Many games are moving to free rules online, or digital rules. FFG has tons of free/digital rules. (And Descent from FFG is no small game, along with the growing Mansions of Madness 2 and soon to be Imperial assault)
It saves the company a lot of money if they can throw up some PDFs online and let the use print them out for 10 cents or less a page. Its very expensive to edit the book, then send it to be professionally printed out. A lot less people buy it at that point.
If this book was like a normal sized/layout book it wouldn't be bad, but I don't know anyone who enjoys the layout it currently has. Takes up a ton of space. Hence why I use my Ipad to play Dropfleet using dflist.
Also its fine for Hard cover DND books, as they don't really get Errata's since they have gone through the mass versions, and 5th really fixed things. Its also not a war-game. War-games are completive so you need a lot of rule checks. DND is very free flow and use whatever you want to it, so not a good comparison for books.
Yeah, because everyone owns a tablet right? Or likes tapping on the screen like a bird.
I hate tablets. I feel more comfortable using a book. I don't have to worry about charging a book or breaking its screen either, and a 40 dollar book is still cheaper than a 100 dollar fancy screen.
Would I buy the book again? No, but that's why there's such a thing as errata. Hawk does that, and even GW used to do that.
Tamwulf wrote: Hawk Wargames is SMALL. Like maybe five full time employees, and several part time. Since they started shipping DFC, I've noticed just about everything else has stopped. No new blogs, no updates on anything except "We're shipping!", next to no communication at all on the forums (where they have always been chatty), release dates for stuff pushed back with no explanation, they haven't answered any of my e-mails except with the automated e-mail of acknowledgement of receipt. No restructure or update on the main website- still no direct links or page for Drop Fleet Commander. On top of that, it's the holidays.
I'm not trying to make excuses for them. It's obvious they were overwhelmed, didn't have the infrastructure or staff to handle shipping out the Kick Starter Pledges AND continue running the company. Add to that the Holidays and I'm surprised they have done even half of what they did. This is not a unique or first time thing either. It's happened to several other smaller mini's companies that ran a hugely successful Kick Starter:
Respectfully, I disagree. If they saw that they were reaching numbers of pledges their staff of five (your estimate) couldn't handle then they should either have budgeted for additional temp staff immediately or closed the campaign early since it funded. Instead, they wanted their cake and to eat it too unfortunately. I posted a few months back in the thread because I thought that Hawk was being tarred unfairly with the same brush as other blatantly dishonest companies but I think the reasonable extra time post retail shipping has past and backers have a genuine right to be pissed now. Ymmv but Hawk still had the chance to hire additional temp workers with the leftover money or even new money from the retail orders they prioritized over backers as well as to correct mistakes with their pledge manager export... from the reports in this thread (not a backer personally as I hitched my wagon to the Halo Fleet Battles fail train) neither seems to have happened to an acceptable degree and a holiday play season was missed by seemingly plenty of the most loyal fans. While I don't attribute any malice on their part (unlike with Prodos or Palladium), I think we're firmly in the "backers are a low priority because of their own lack of planning" phase of fulfillment and I as a gamer can't hand wave that off as acceptable. Ymmv.
You can disagree, but the answer is not as easy as "just hire temp peep". Watch the BoW video where Dave (CEO) goes into depth on why they just cant hire temp people like that. They had 5 before, and have since hired on 3 more people to meet demand. Im not saying they didn't screw up, just its not as easy as youd think. I love the models, and a good 70% of the game itself, but id never in my life back another hawk KS. Fool me once...
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, because everyone owns a tablet right? Or likes tapping on the screen like a bird.
I hate tablets. I feel more comfortable using a book. I don't have to worry about charging a book or breaking its screen either, and a 40 dollar book is still cheaper than a 100 dollar fancy screen.
Would I buy the book again? No, but that's why there's such a thing as errata. Hawk does that, and even GW used to do that.
I said I use a tablet, its very convenient for me. Not forcing anyone else to. But its far easier to update then a physical book. I can have a book marked rulebook and army list all there and hardly take up space. I also don't "peck it like a bird". Use what you like, but the book is a fail. Judging by this, I'm guessing you use a flip phone still? As you'd be doing the same on a phone as you would the hated tablet tablet...
There is quite a lot to errata, so I easily see them doing a 1.1 version, just like Dropzone has.
Mr Morden wrote: I agree and understand that a digital update is needed for the surprising amount of issues in the current rulebook.
However I don't own or want a tablet and my phone has buttons (!) so I will have to print it off. Personally I would prefer a new book
Yea, that's also what I'm saying. Make it a living book online, and you can print it from there for people who want a physical one. FedEx usually has 30% off coupons, and you can print just the rules and skip the fluff/read it online/print it separate and get a rulebook for far cheaper then if they make a rulebook
The fluff and flavor of the DZC physical book is one of my most treasured gaming possessions. I'm really looking forward to being able to carry around the DFC book and read it at my leisure. The new Mantic sourcebook? Have to leave it at home, or stop reading when my wife wants to play Sim City.
It's important to note that the book is far more than a collection of rules. The DZC book is worth reading for its own sake. The Halo Fleet Battles books? Those were collections of rules, the kind of joyless flappity-froo a person might accidentally run over twice while cleaning his trunk. Put that crap on an iPad. I've spent at least an hour more gaining hobby fun from the Robogear pamphlet.
Living rule books are great, but don't drop the distinctive rule books that make a game feel special.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The fluff and flavor of the DZC physical book is one of my most treasured gaming possessions. I'm really looking forward to being able to carry around the DFC book and read it at my leisure. The new Mantic sourcebook? Have to leave it at home, or stop reading when my wife wants to play Sim City.
It's important to note that the book is far more than a collection of rules. The DZC book is worth reading for its own sake. The Halo Fleet Battles books? Those were collections of rules, the kind of joyless flappity-froo a person might accidentally run over twice while cleaning his trunk. Put that crap on an iPad. I've spent at least an hour more gaining hobby fun from the Robogear pamphlet.
Living rule books are great, but don't drop the distinctive rule books that make a game feel special.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @compel that came direct from a hawk employees mouth at the Cardiff preview day in Firestorm Games.
And Dave has told people at events since launch that Point Defense should be different, that you pull your PD pools together, but without a video or it written anywhere (anywhere being a place that is legit) its all hearsay. Sure, the goal is a perfect book, but that never happens, with any company, ever, as we are humans.
the best thing they could do is make a digital living rulebook for this, and DZC really to edit rules and fix things. Super easy for them, and players. And if you really want, you can print it yourself.
A Living Rulebook is fine for SMALL rulebooks like X-Wing where there's only a few core rules and all the remaining stuff is printed on cards anyway.
I hate using PDFs or anything digital at the table. I've always and will always prefer a hardcover, regular formatted book, preferably in German. And yes, I'm willing to pay extra for each and every one of those features. Had to do so for D&D in the past and would do that for other games, too. It's just that much more convenient.
But a Living Rulebook absolutely kills the ability to offer such a book. I'm not going to buy a new version every month, obviously. So thanks, but no, thanks.
So you prefer buying multiples of the same book, because its physical for you? Seems a little silly. Look at Dropzone 1.0 Lots of errors. Hence why 1.1 was released. Its not fun buying the same thing. Its a digital age. Many games are moving to free rules online, or digital rules. FFG has tons of free/digital rules. (And Descent from FFG is no small game, along with the growing Mansions of Madness 2 and soon to be Imperial assault)
It saves the company a lot of money if they can throw up some PDFs online and let the use print them out for 10 cents or less a page. Its very expensive to edit the book, then send it to be professionally printed out. A lot less people buy it at that point.
If this book was like a normal sized/layout book it wouldn't be bad, but I don't know anyone who enjoys the layout it currently has. Takes up a ton of space. Hence why I use my Ipad to play Dropfleet using dflist.
Also its fine for Hard cover DND books, as they don't really get Errata's since they have gone through the mass versions, and 5th really fixed things. Its also not a war-game. War-games are completive so you need a lot of rule checks. DND is very free flow and use whatever you want to it, so not a good comparison for books.
I simply expect them to put in proper QA effort. That is why dnd doesnt have 4.1, 4.2, 5.1 or 5.2 rulebooks.each edition in dnd is a rewrite that had to be QAed again.
And hardcover is the reason why i dont want a living ruleset, not sure what your point is with the rebuying ...
I simply expect them to put in proper QA effort. That is why dnd doesnt have 4.1, 4.2, 5.1 or 5.2 rulebooks.each edition in dnd is a rewrite that had to be QAed again.
And hardcover is the reason why i dont want a living ruleset, not sure what your point is with the rebuying ...
str00dles1 wrote: There is quite a lot to errata, so I easily see them doing a 1.1 version, just like Dropzone has.
That's a bummer, though... and I went through that with DzC as my whole group bought in heavily. The rules need to be a higher priority, imo - it was our main turnoff and looks to be here, as well. It's why I was excited about Andy Chambers, but I think his involvement was only at the start and I'd love to see them task him with more. Especially if they're needing to errata already! The rules and balance really have to be solid, it's what gives smaller (although that's relative!) games like theses legs and help them last.
Their models are gorgeous, but if they're hiring I think this should be a major focus, or at least commissioning someone to get things really tight!
Their models are gorgeous, but if they're hiring I think this should be a major focus, or at least commissioning someone to get things really tight!
On a good note, at least it's not like Warmahordes 3.0. If this is all we are complaining about is spelling mistakes, that is so much better than trying to change how the game plays at least.
And I agree it's a gorgeous book! Just hope they can keep things tight on the rules, and hopefully make any errata quickly . Obviously they're right on in focusing on finishing the last shipments first!
Another week and nothing. How many months is it going to take Hawk to answer our emails and send out our pledges? This is getting beyond any reasonable slack I might have previously given them.
mdauben wrote: Another week and nothing. How many months is it going to take Hawk to answer our emails and send out pledges? This is getting beyond any reasonable slack I might have previously given them.
Judging from the FB group they're making progress, more and more people are being contacted and/or getting their shipments/shipping notices. They'll get around to yours at some point. I'm really sorry you're apparently on the lower end of that list :(
mdauben wrote: Another week and nothing. How many months is it going to take Hawk to answer our emails and send out pledges? This is getting beyond any reasonable slack I might have previously given them.
Judging from the FB group they're making progress, more and more people are being contacted and/or getting their shipments/shipping notices. They'll get around to yours at some point. I'm really sorry you're apparently on the lower end of that list :(
It would help if Hawk would just post some updates on their stupid Kickstarter page with progress reports. Even a once a week posting to say "we identified 12 missing pledges this week and got them shipped" would go a long way towards making me feel more confident that something was being done. Just another example of the incompetence that seems to be dogging this Kickstarter.
Progress reports draw people from areas that are higher priority.
And some people do not realize that once certain buttons are pushed it becomes extremely expensive to stop them again. Once the production for retail sarts and the shops place their order changing dates is no longer possible, except you really want to bleed money. You can´t just hire some people, you have to train them, too.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Progress reports draw people from areas that are higher priority.
Considering the continuing storm of bad press being generated by the KS I would consider taking a half hour a week to post a progress report to be fairly high priority.
Well, they could either post, week after week, that they work on the shipping out of parcels or just send them out. I prefer the latter.
The storm of bad press is rather a small group being very vocal. As it seems the majority is quite happy with what they got.
Btw, there is no TT-KS where everyone is happy, no matter how hard you try. A certain percentage of backers will always have problems getting their parcels for differing reasons.
Some things Hawk could have done better. But considering how e.g. even CMON manages to still get the packaging of their products wrong time after time (i look at you game-boards with damages), even after so many KS they are doing not that bad for their first KS.
If we ran into Problems like with Palladium I would be completely on your side. But the issues we have here are more of the lesser ones, though they are not that nice for those being on the receiving end.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Progress reports draw people from areas that are higher priority.
And some people do not realize that once certain buttons are pushed it becomes extremely expensive to stop them again. Once the production for retail sarts and the shops place their order changing dates is no longer possible, except you really want to bleed money. You can´t just hire some people, you have to train them, too.
Oh come on. A proper long-form progress report would take maybe half an hour, a quick one like "we did 12 pledges this week" would be more like "get the number, type a line and done - 5 minutes". It's not rocket science to write a status report of your project. I do this every week for more than one project.
And noone I know is complaining about the quality of the product, just the quality of the service and delivery times and communications. I have my pledge since december, but that doesn't change how badly they communicate(d) and how easy it would be to fix that.
Doing proper updates will not cost them much right now, but not doing it costs them a TON of goodwill with the community and that will translate to sales lost in the long run.
Anyone know what email address you're supposed to contact Hawk on regarding Kickstarter orders? I've had this ongoing issue since end of September and I've sent three emails with no response. I know they say they're looking into issues and not to email them multiple times, but I've not even had an acknowledgement email.
Ask them about dropzone Commander and theyll Reply in a day. Use that Reply to get angry and theyll answer your second E-Mail.
Its a shame you have to trick them into it but that seems to be the best and only way.
The storm of bad press is rather a small group being very vocal. As it seems the majority is quite happy with what they got.
10%-20% of the KS backers haven't gotten their orders because Hawk didn't know they even existed. We had to find that out on our own after the whole 'spiel' on the Beasts of War video where they admitted they messed up, why and how they were fixing it. What they didn't know was that they were missing a few hundred backers in the queue... Stuff happens, mistakes happen, stuff gets delayed... I'm still waiting on my Brimstone stuff, not happy to wait, but I can understand why I'm waiting. This is not even Murphy, this is his sad little brother Incompetence.
The stuff looks amazing. That the rulebooks need extensive FAQs, that happens (a LOT) with games, especially miniature wargames. It might have been a good idea to post the pdf to backers before going to print, they would have been able to get a massive amount of proofreading that way.
So I can absolutely understand why people are happy with what they've gotten, but a not insignificant amount of people haven't gotten anything... Just because they are a minority doesn't make them wrong.
Hawk isn't doing this because they are evil, this happened because they have horrible, horrible logistical skills! And unless everyone there broke their hands the last month, they have no excuse for not posting an update with a status update.
For what it's worth I love my DFC space station set, lots of options and neat little greebles. They should follow it up with a modular transport or other ship set.
Manage to make this Not-The-Enterprise and a long-planned Space Fleet conversion.
Yeah, the Station pack is pretty awesome - although I've had some problems during assembly with how parts go together (or dont) - there's room for improvement, but that's really complaining at extra high level - what that kit is capable of is awesome and very unique - the most modular alternative space stations I could find were like "put these 5 parts in any order you want", so on a totally different level.
What I'm really missing are pieces to turn one of the stations into a shipyard / repair station - or just something to dock ships to.
It might have been a good idea to post the pdf to backers before going to print, they would have been able to get a massive amount of proofreading that way.
Being among other things a professional editor... that´s only a good idea if the proof-readers are already quite experienced. Very often it creates more work than it helps. Cause someone has to go through every report and compare it to the files and very often people don´t even adhere to the format for handing in proofs, which creates even more work.
If backer information is missing that can have a lot of causes. Just a simple thing as using an older database-version can cause it. As soon as more than one company is involved in something things get complicated. From the outside is close to impossible to judge what has happened, so one better stays away from pointing fingers.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: For what it's worth I love my DFC space station set, lots of options and neat little greebles. They should follow it up with a modular transport or other ship set.
Manage to make this Not-The-Enterprise and a long-planned Space Fleet conversion.
It might have been a good idea to post the pdf to backers before going to print, they would have been able to get a massive amount of proofreading that way.
Being among other things a professional editor... that´s only a good idea if the proof-readers are already quite experienced. Very often it creates more work than it helps. Cause someone has to go through every report and compare it to the files and very often people don´t even adhere to the format for handing in proofs, which creates even more work.
If backer information is missing that can have a lot of causes. Just a simple thing as using an older database-version can cause it. As soon as more than one company is involved in something things get complicated. From the outside is close to impossible to judge what has happened, so one better stays away from pointing fingers.
The core issue (to me) isn't that they "lost" data, but it's how they're handling that, and their lack of communication.
Saw the thread title change, any particular reason? Seems like the overwhelming majority of backers got their pledges shipped and received months ago and now there are a few outliers.
RoninXiC wrote: Ask them about dropzone Commander and theyll Reply in a day. Use that Reply to get angry and theyll answer your second E-Mail.
Its a shame you have to trick them into it but that seems to be the best and only way.
I can sadly confirm that was the only way I've received contact. I titled my email Dropzone Commander and received a response in hours as opposed to silence for months.
judgedoug wrote: Saw the thread title change, any particular reason? Seems like the overwhelming majority of backers got their pledges shipped and received months ago and now there are a few outliers.
If you regard "about a hundred known and an unknown number of unknown cases" as "a few outliers", sure.
Plus there's the whole "not a single word out of Hawk since Dec 22" thing.
I updated it to be a bit clearer now, but yeah, still a bit to go to call fulfillment complete here... although they've obviously made great progress towards that point. Hopefully they can finish the missing orders this month!
I think that the KS has shown that Hawk really need to hire a manager, someone who can actually organise things properly and knows what needs to be done before it needs to be done.
I find it amazing that Hawk was unaware of the process involved in shipping models until they actually started to ship models.....
A manager costs money, from a business point of view for this project it makes zero sense for Hawk.
There seems to be constant genuine surprise amongst gamers when small companies promise too much and become overwhelmed by the KS success..... It would have taken Hawk o e afternoon to figure that a large number of add ons and multiple shipping waves was going to cause hell.
TwilightSparkles wrote: A manager costs money, from a business point of view for this project it makes zero sense for Hawk.
There seems to be constant genuine surprise amongst gamers when small companies promise too much and become overwhelmed by the KS success..... It would have taken Hawk o e afternoon to figure that a large number of add ons and multiple shipping waves was going to cause hell.
Just like I tell my kids, if you can't keep your word and not do what you say, you don't make promises you can't keep. Like really, does Dave have to be treated like a little boy now? We have to make excuses for him now?
It's funny. I didn't buy get into his kickstarter but from the excitement of this thread I bought his game when I saw it on the store. The day after is when I kept reading how people are not getting their orders. I can't even touch this game right now, knowing others want it so bad and don't have it.
Weird I know. So I am hoping people will get their orders so I can finally start putting the ships together.
TwilightSparkles wrote: A manager costs money, from a business point of view for this project it makes zero sense for Hawk.
There seems to be constant genuine surprise amongst gamers when small companies promise too much and become overwhelmed by the KS success..... It would have taken Hawk o e afternoon to figure that a large number of add ons and multiple shipping waves was going to cause hell.
Just like I tell my kids, if you can't keep your word and not do what you say, you don't make promises you can't keep. Like really, does Dave have to be treated like a little boy now? We have to make excuses for him now?
Don't think anyone is making excuses for Dave. He explained in detail on BoW why things happened the way it did. Every KS promises tons of stuff but 90% of them never do all they promise, that's kickstarter.
str00dles1 wrote: Don't think anyone is making excuses for Dave. He explained in detail on BoW why things happened the way it did. Every KS promises tons of stuff but 90% of them never do all they promise, that's kickstarter.
Fair enough. Thing is, doesn't he have his own website? How come he needed a different site than his own to explain it? He could have explained it there. Maybe he did, and I am wrong then again. But if not you shouldn't have to go to a place like Bells of Lost Souls or a lesser known place like BoW. Thing is, he can also be sending and replying to the people's emails as well instead of acting like a politician and lying by saying "all invoices or notices are sent" when it is clearly not the case. Again, if he erred on that part and thought everything was sent, he should know by know that is not the case and man up and do the right thing.
It's one of those, you can take their money, you can bloody well email them and let them know what is going on. No excuse for that at all. If it's too hard to email, then it's to hard to take their money. He had no problems taking their money if I am correct.
It doesn't matter if this is how Kickstarter is done. Thing is, I supported this guy buy buying his product on how people said he is a gamer, a stand up guy and supported someone who was a small business. What was the saying, a game made by a gamer?
Sadly his business practices is even worse than GW practices. I lost so much respect for the guy. Guess money do change people.
Beasts of War isn't a lesser known site, for the UK at least (where Hawk Wargames are based.) In fact, they are really the only major general wargaming news channel in the UK. Just about the only other thing Dave could have done to get a wider circulation would be to post it in Tabletop Gaming magazine - which comes out once a season.
And considering there's a kickstarter update (#63) called "Dave has made a video for all backers" one would think that would cover those directly involved too and BoW had the infrastructure to do a 'proper' video. I'm just imagining the whinging that would result if Dave had just done that on home via a facebook video or a periscope!
To be fair, Kickstarter videos are the worst and no backer should ever feel pressured into watching them.
Or maybe that's just me. I hate it when KS creators expect me to watch their videos. The only reason I can look at your site is because the wife and kid is sleeping, so don't think I'm going to risk waking them for your stupid videos, especially you, Poots.
str00dles1 wrote: Don't think anyone is making excuses for Dave. He explained in detail on BoW why things happened the way it did. Every KS promises tons of stuff but 90% of them never do all they promise, that's kickstarter.
Fair enough. Thing is, doesn't he have his own website? How come he needed a different site than his own to explain it? He could have explained it there. Maybe he did, and I am wrong then again. But if not you shouldn't have to go to a place like Bells of Lost Souls or a lesser known place like BoW. Thing is, he can also be sending and replying to the people's emails as well instead of acting like a politician and lying by saying "all invoices or notices are sent" when it is clearly not the case. Again, if he erred on that part and thought everything was sent, he should know by know that is not the case and man up and do the right thing.
It's one of those, you can take their money, you can bloody well email them and let them know what is going on. No excuse for that at all. If it's too hard to email, then it's to hard to take their money. He had no problems taking their money if I am correct.
It doesn't matter if this is how Kickstarter is done. Thing is, I supported this guy buy buying his product on how people said he is a gamer, a stand up guy and supported someone who was a small business. What was the saying, a game made by a gamer?
Sadly his business practices is even worse than GW practices. I lost so much respect for the guy. Guess money do change people.
I could understand the rage from say a actual backer, but you bought the product at retail. I hardly think the hate is justified. I was a backer. Someone who put 500$ into this. I also waited 2 months as everyone I knew got their stuff and everyone was playing and loving it. Even more so frustrated when the battle cruisers released retail, and still I had nothing. Shortly after my pledge finally came.
Compel gave the reasons, but ill reiterate them. BoW (Beasts of War) is not a lesser known site. More so one of the most known sites for gaming. they have worked with Dave for years for Dropzone, so it made sense to use what BoW has to make vids on Dropfleet. Hes a designer, and creator for all of the models, that's his job among being CEO. Its now 6-7 people company. They have a email person going through hundreds and hundreds of emails a day (As the video explains).Backers spamming asking for their stuff every day doesent help the persons job on going through the emails. They have also recently said more people are going through emails as there is far less packing.
Hes not going to sit there and reply to every person. He has minis to create, as the company needs to keep producing models to be successful. This is why he made a video on BoW and there is KS updates, as blanket statements from him. This KS, while very profitable, stopped many releases for their more popular game, Dropzone from coming out.
Your acting like he stole peoples money. People gave him it to get a product. Kickstarter isn't a preorder service. If it comes to you before, retail great! but your fronting the money to get extra stuff and help create a project.
To relate this and whats happened to Games Workshop is pretty ridiculous. they have done horrible/stupid things to their players for DECADES.
It sucks for the people who have had problems, and still waiting, as I was one but all of what your saying is way off base. You invested in a retail product that is there because of people like myself and thousands of others who put the cash up front to it could become a reality.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: To be fair, Kickstarter videos are the worst and no backer should ever feel pressured into watching them.
Or maybe that's just me. I hate it when KS creators expect me to watch their videos. The only reason I can look at your site is because the wife and kid is sleeping, so don't think I'm going to risk waking them for your stupid videos, especially you, Poots.
The videos on the main page I never watch, but when there is a update from the company CEO to tell you about whats going on...you should be watching it.
str00dles1 wrote: Don't think anyone is making excuses for Dave. He explained in detail on BoW why things happened the way it did. Every KS promises tons of stuff but 90% of them never do all they promise, that's kickstarter.
Fair enough. Thing is, doesn't he have his own website? How come he needed a different site than his own to explain it? He could have explained it there. Maybe he did, and I am wrong then again. But if not you shouldn't have to go to a place like Bells of Lost Souls or a lesser known place like BoW. Thing is, he can also be sending and replying to the people's emails as well instead of acting like a politician and lying by saying "all invoices or notices are sent" when it is clearly not the case. Again, if he erred on that part and thought everything was sent, he should know by know that is not the case and man up and do the right thing.
It's one of those, you can take their money, you can bloody well email them and let them know what is going on. No excuse for that at all. If it's too hard to email, then it's to hard to take their money. He had no problems taking their money if I am correct.
It doesn't matter if this is how Kickstarter is done. Thing is, I supported this guy buy buying his product on how people said he is a gamer, a stand up guy and supported someone who was a small business. What was the saying, a game made by a gamer?
Sadly his business practices is even worse than GW practices. I lost so much respect for the guy. Guess money do change people.
I could understand the rage from say a actual backer, but you bought the product at retail. I hardly think the hate is justified. I was a backer. Someone who put 500$ into this. I also waited 2 months as everyone I knew got their stuff and everyone was playing and loving it. Even more so frustrated when the battle cruisers released retail, and still I had nothing. Shortly after my pledge finally came.
Compel gave the reasons, but ill reiterate them. BoW (Beasts of War) is not a lesser known site. More so one of the most known sites for gaming. they have worked with Dave for years for Dropzone, so it made sense to use what BoW has to make vids on Dropfleet. Hes a designer, and creator for all of the models, that's his job among being CEO. Its now 6-7 people company. They have a email person going through hundreds and hundreds of emails a day (As the video explains).Backers spamming asking for their stuff every day doesent help the persons job on going through the emails. They have also recently said more people are going through emails as there is far less packing.
Hes not going to sit there and reply to every person. He has minis to create, as the company needs to keep producing models to be successful. This is why he made a video on BoW and there is KS updates, as blanket statements from him. This KS, while very profitable, stopped many releases for their more popular game, Dropzone from coming out.
Your acting like he stole peoples money. People gave him it to get a product. Kickstarter isn't a preorder service. If it comes to you before, retail great! but your fronting the money to get extra stuff and help create a project.
Of course it is a pre-order Service. Just because it is not explicitly stated as this HAWK explicitly uses this accordingly. It certainly don't give them the right to treat me like gak (e.g. they obviously are able to answer mails about retail but ignore KS mails) and break their own promises (to reiterate: I didn't demand that I receive my packages before retail. They promised this. And most likely the majority wouldn't have been as bitter as they are if they hadn't to wait MONTHS before getting their packages)
To relate this and whats happened to Games Workshop is pretty ridiculous. they have done horrible/stupid things to their players for DECADES.
It sucks for the people who have had problems, and still waiting, as I was one but all of what your saying is way off base. You invested in a retail product that is there because of people like myself and thousands of others who put the cash up front to it could become a reality.
So, then I'm not a buyer but an Investor. I'm quite sure that usual investors shouldn't be handled like this. Using Crowdfunding does not excuse unprofessional behaviour (like such miserable communication).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: To be fair, Kickstarter videos are the worst and no backer should ever feel pressured into watching them.
Or maybe that's just me. I hate it when KS creators expect me to watch their videos. The only reason I can look at your site is because the wife and kid is sleeping, so don't think I'm going to risk waking them for your stupid videos, especially you, Poots.
The videos on the main page I never watch, but when there is a update from the company CEO to tell you about whats going on...you should be watching it.
It's a frigging 40 Minute Video. On a site I don't particularly like because I find those guys obnoxious. Use the damn platform you started this on. It's essentially an Information for backers anyways.
I really and honestly do not mind delays in kickstarters. That's part of the deal to get games/stuff get made. Sometimes I save money but I do not care THAT much about that though.
What pisses me off are two things:
1. The game has been out for MONTHS to the general public and maybe hundreds of backers do not have it. It thus is nut a problem of producing too few, it's simply a problem of allocating resources.
2. Lying about the process. Lying and just not communicating.
Warpath from Mantic had/has an equally long delay. I DIDNT CARE AT ALL. Because Mantic made it quite clear and informed the backers about everything.
This KS was not a pre-order. It was made clear from day one that it speeds up production. And they made clear that they will try to release the backer stuff before retail if nothing gets in between. Well some problems showed up. Sadly retail got it earlier, but the alternative would have been withholding the placed orders of shops and maybe risking the everyday-business that a company needs to stay alive. I rather prefer a company looks for its survival than some fleeting street-cred.
From what it looks like, less than 10% of the backers do not have their pledges. There is and never will be a KS where all backers will get their products fully in time. Just changing adresses etc. makes this impossible. Even wy bigger companies in other areas these days have problems getting products out in time. Just check when smartphones are announcedfor realease and when the y really release.
What some people seem to ignore is the fact that these days business is extremly interlocked and that one hickup can mess up all the rest. That´s what happened here. If everything would have been perfect we all would have gotten our stuff in time. But this is no perfect world.
That´s nothing to cheer about, but also no reason to wish them into hell.
And no amount of carefull planing can prepare you for the one hickup that avalanches through your schedule...
They did not lie. They told you what they thought would be the outcome in the near future.
Working in this business I do know quite well how one small thing can influence the realease of something.
And sorry.... but some guys here never will be happy, only when they are able to complain they seem to be really happy. Customer is king, sure, but some are just nasty and sometimes need to be reminded that they are not the center of the world.
I'm not angry at the delay in my pledge, I was however disappointed in the communication. I've emailed numerous times, not because I desperately need an answer right this second, but because there's no automated response stating they've received my communication or a kickstarter update stating replies take on average 60 days or whatever and contact after then. I had no idea if my email was going anywhere or had wandered into the ether.
Throughout the campaign again communication was the issue. Again I don't mind when things are delayed. However communicate primarily through kickstarter updates. So much information throughout the campaign was distributed via Beasts of War, Instagram or word of mouth from conventions. A five minute update would have sufficed 90% of the time.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: And they made clear that they will try to release the backer stuff before retail if nothing gets in between.
Please point specifically where this (and especially the bolded part) was stated.
From what it looks like, less than 10% of the backers do not have their pledges. There is and never will be a KS where all backers will get their products fully in time. Just changing adresses etc. makes this impossible.
As I pointed out before there was no change in my adress no special character no nothing... They simply fethed up BIG TIME.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: And they made clear that they will try to release the backer stuff before retail if nothing gets in between.
Please point specifically where this (and especially the bolded part) was stated.
From what it looks like, less than 10% of the backers do not have their pledges. There is and never will be a KS where all backers will get their products fully in time. Just changing adresses etc. makes this impossible.
As I pointed out before there was no change in my adress no special character no nothing... They simply fethed up BIG TIME.
Just because your address didn't change, doesn't mean many others didn't also. From the FB groups, there's been tons of people asking what to do because they moved.
Also your previous mention of this being a preorder service is wrong, still. If you believe any minis game is going to be a preorder on KS, you haven't done many of them then. None of them arrive before retail or on time. I KSed Masorma from Cool Mini or not. Didn't get any extra addons besides what was given, and that game went retail back at Gencon 16. And im still waiting for my game.
They messed up, which is a fact, but for all you people who are raging over it is just silly. Get facts straight before freaking out.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: This KS was not a pre-order. It was made clear from day one that it speeds up production.
Pre-Order = I send the manufacturer money before a product is available.
Kickstarter = I send the manufacturer money before a product is available.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
And they made clear that they will try to release the backer stuff before retail if nothing gets in between. Well some problems showed up. Sadly retail got it earlier,
I was not bothered when this was first announced, under the impression that I would be getting my pledge a week or two after it hit retain. Now that its been a couple months since it hit retail (and they have managed to produce and distribute to retail additional product beyond the KS) you will excuse me if I'm less forgiving.
From what it looks like, less than 10% of the backers do not have their pledges. There is and never will be a KS where all backers will get their products fully in time.
Nothing done by humans will ever be perfect, but I've pledged quite a few KS before this. None of them had hundreds of people with no idea where their pledges were months after the product has been released. Some people did indeed change addresses but many of them notified Hawk before the pledges were sent out, and many others never changed their addresses and these people are still waiting for some sort of response.
That´s nothing to cheer about, but also no reason to wish them into hell.
I don't wish them ill, I hope Hawk and this game continue to flourish. That does not change the fact that they screwed this Kickstarter up and many, many people have every reason to be upset with them.
They did not lie. They told you what they thought would be the outcome in the near future.
They did not lie but they have consistently failed in keeping their backers informed. The current month long gap since any sort of update is not only unacceptable, it is not the first time in this process they have failed to make any effort to keep backers informed.
Less than 10% (if you actually believe that) is several HUNDRED of people. That is quite a lot
I actually think they lied to us. They lied to us about prioritizing KS over reteail. They lied to us about how many stuff they pack and ship every week. They lied to us about keeping us informed.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: And they made clear that they will try to release the backer stuff before retail if nothing gets in between.
Please point specifically where this (and especially the bolded part) was stated.
From what it looks like, less than 10% of the backers do not have their pledges. There is and never will be a KS where all backers will get their products fully in time. Just changing adresses etc. makes this impossible.
As I pointed out before there was no change in my adress no special character no nothing... They simply fethed up BIG TIME.
Just because your address didn't change, doesn't mean many others didn't also. From the FB groups, there's been tons of people asking what to do because they moved.
Also your previous mention of this being a preorder service is wrong, still. If you believe any minis game is going to be a preorder on KS, you haven't done many of them then. None of them arrive before retail or on time. I KSed Masorma from Cool Mini or not. Didn't get any extra addons besides what was given, and that game went retail back at Gencon 16. And im still waiting for my game.
They messed up, which is a fact, but for all you people who are raging over it is just silly. Get facts straight before freaking out.
I wouldn't have minded a limited release at some conventions. But having it available for general sale FOR MONTHS before they actually sorted out the pledges is a NO-GO for me... And as you can read throughout the thread there are other wh think like me.
And actually I've done more than 50 miniature based Kickstarter projects... And HAWK is easily in the top five contenders for worst experience!
TwilightSparkles wrote: A manager costs money, from a business point of view for this project it makes zero sense for Hawk.
They raised £629222 on the KS, 15 times their target so they could have easily afforded someone competent to run the packaging and delivery aspects of the KS, even for 3-4 months. It makes perfect sense because without someone who knows what they are doing you end up with the shambles that the KS turned into, entirely due to their piss poor admin and apparent ignorance.
RoninXiC wrote: Less than 10% (if you actually believe that) is several HUNDRED of people. That is quite a lot
I actually think they lied to us. They lied to us about prioritizing KS over reteail. They lied to us about how many stuff they pack and ship every week. They lied to us about keeping us informed.
Hanlon's Razor applies; "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Lying implies a willful intent to mislead for some form of gain. Hawk gains nothing by misleading backers other than bad press and dissatisfied customers which are decidedly NOT gains in any way. Did they never make the product? No, based on others we know most every product exists. Are they stringing backers along because they don't have any money? Likely not, given how it still seems to be selling decently in stores they're probably in decent financial shape. Are they hoarding things so they can send them to retail outlets? Doesn't appear to be the case as people are getting their pledges just at a mind-bogglingly slow rate. I don't see much malice evidenced in their actions or the situation in general.
I do believe they are simply out of their depth on how to deal with things. My feeling is that they don't really know what broke, how badly it broke and thus they have no way of knowing what their exit strategy is because the problem(s) aren't fully defined. It's not malicious so much as an incredibly typical overestimation of their abilities; it's insanely common when it comes to logistics across many companies and people. They are falling back in a very typical "if I just work on the problem then it will be fixed that much faster" mindset, but in that model communication channels, which typically suck at the best of times in most organizations, become even more chaotic. They also become afraid of bothering the 90% that have their things as that's unforced damage to annoy them, while at the same time needing to communicate to the backers that have problems while not really knowing exactly who all of those people are.
I'm not saying that excuses a month-long comms blackout by any stretch (especially with some products still not delivered at all to any backers who paid for them), just that I don't see where they're trying to cheat anyone out of what they're owed or fade away into the night. Woefully inadequate planning? Sure. A strong case to apply far greater scrutiny any future crowdfunding/pre-order support for the company? Absolutely. Intent on their part to make this outcome happen? Not in the slightest.
Of course they get something by lying. They're trying to keep things low profile. Without the internet, no one really would've noticed that HUNDREDS of people still do not have their stuff.
By lying, they're trying to keep people silent so they do not complain about it, tell their friends not support the company and so on.
I don't give a zerglings butt why this got messed up this badly. What I care about is my stuff I payed for way too long ago.
If I hadn't complained over and over again... If I hadn't tricked them into replying to a DropZONE Commander E-Mail, I probably would still not have gotten any kind of feedback from them.
Again: I needed to TRICK them into replying to me. It took them half a day to answer my DropZONE E-Mail, but they're not able to answer DropFLEET E-Mails for months? It's 100% clear that they do NOT care that much.
Except posting a video to a well-known gaming site where the CEO basically goes "we messed up a lot of things" and mentioning in their updates that their continue to be problems with some people, yes, they are clearly trying to keep things low profile. Or...completely not that. I also doubt that the internet really played that big a part in the discovery. Mantic found a similar problem in Dungeon Saga and I don't recall tons of people mentioning it prior. Likely as they began to notice multiple people reporting they hadn't received anything the common thread would have been uncovered.
Not giving people product is a guaranteed way to ENSURE they complain and tell all their friends about it. It doesn't matter if people who have their stuff know what's going on; the wronged party will make sure all and sundry know they were wronged (such as...you, right now). Hawk isn't saying "shut up or we'll lose your pledge again" so what would any backer who's out gain by remaining silent? Also, Robotech's KS amply shows how negativity will fill a vacuum, so even saying nothing is no safeguard against ill-will and in fact allows it to fester.
You're also reading quite a great deal into "ah hah! Someone replied to a general question about a flagship product but not my specific inquiry on a project that's mired in logistical failures!" Hawk actually stated they've reduced the team working on DFC. Undoubtedly that was done to keep many hands out of the pie and making things even worse as they try to untangle the mess they've found. Thus, it would be wholly unsurprising to learn that not everyone in the company actually has knowledge of what's going on with the DFC process at the moment. They see a subject line they CAN act on to remove it from the list of things the sods trying to fix DFC have to wade through and they do so. Obviously I can't know if that's absolute truth but it does seem more plausible than Hawk being out to screw you, specifically, when everyone agree an overwhelming majority of things are completed successfully. Again, incompetence generally trumps malice in these situations.
I am not saying you don't have a right to be frothing mad, nor to want the communication and product you deserve. I'm not even saying that Hawk doesn't deserve even more ire than they're getting for how they've mishandled things. I'm just saying that running off into wild conspiracy theories because you're rightfully mad really isn't accomplishing anything other than perhaps raising your blood pressure and lowering your life expectancy which are likewise not really good things.
RoninXiC wrote: Of course they get something by lying. They're trying to keep things low profile. Without the internet, no one really would've noticed that HUNDREDS of people still do not have their stuff.
By lying, they're trying to keep people silent so they do not complain about it, tell their friends not support the company and so on.
I don't give a zerglings butt why this got messed up this badly. What I care about is my stuff I payed for way too long ago.
If I hadn't complained over and over again... If I hadn't tricked them into replying to a DropZONE Commander E-Mail, I probably would still not have gotten any kind of feedback from them.
Again: I needed to TRICK them into replying to me. It took them half a day to answer my DropZONE E-Mail, but they're not able to answer DropFLEET E-Mails for months? It's 100% clear that they do NOT care that much.
1. Low profile? the lateness and anger is spread on here, their official site, etc. Everyone who backed the game knows how much they struggled with it. Why would they keep a low profile? There's nothing to hide. The CEO said they screwed up bad publically
2. Without the internet this wouldn't have been a Kickstarter, so your point is invalid there
3. Those hundred of people are spamming them with emails. Sending emails on a daily basis. You didn't "trick them" as you like to think. They are still supporting their main game Dropzone. Its easier to reply to a dropzone question then dropfleet at the moment as the dropfleet questions are " wheres my stuff" and they have to go look up and find if it shipped or not and track it down.
4. Its the life blood of the company for this to be successful, so saying they don't care is a highly uneducated of a statement.
5. They, as mentioned, gain NOTHING from trying to lie. They screwed up. Everyone knows this but they are not being malicious like you would like to think.
I get your frustrated as I was in the same boat, but spewing off hate and lies about isn't going to solve anything. Be frustrated at them, and express it, but support it with actual facts as opposed to this nonsense.
And actually I've done more than 50 miniature based Kickstarter projects... And HAWK is easily in the top five contenders for worst experience!
That's... Wh--huh?
I hope you use your superlative luck to game the stock market.
I can think of at least ten that I've pledged for that were worse, and not only have I pledged for fewer than 50, I also was one of the forgotten few of this campaign. Yes, it sucks that Hawk thinks BOW is a genuine avenue of communication, and it sucks that they have Speedy Gonzales's cousin packing the shipments, but keep things in perspective: you know they will deliver, eventually, and you know the product will of worthy quality. Sell your rewards in spite of you want, but for the love of the innocent, please stop spreading the harmful notion that the DFC Kickstarter fulfillment drama is almost the worst thing that can happen to a pledger's money.
And actually I've done more than 50 miniature based Kickstarter projects... And HAWK is easily in the top five contenders for worst experience!
That's... Wh--huh?
I hope you use your superlative luck to game the stock market.
I can think of at least ten that I've pledged for that were worse, and not only have I pledged for fewer than 50, I also was one of the forgotten few of this campaign. Yes, it sucks that Hawk thinks BOW is a genuine avenue of communication, and it sucks that they have Speedy Gonzales's cousin packing the shipments, but keep things in perspective: you know they will deliver, eventually, and you know the product will of worthy quality. Sell your rewards in spite of you want, but for the love of the innocent, please stop spreading the harmful notion that the DFC Kickstarter fulfillment drama is almost the worst thing that can happen to a pledger's money.
How Do I know they will deliver when this is their first KS? I certainly have nowadays no doubt that CMoN will deliver because it's their umpteens KS. But here it was their first one.
I wrote exactly one mail to them and received a standard mail reading like "We're looking into it". Afterwards more than a month of radio silence until I received a shipping notice... From DPD... Not HAWK. That's not how you should treat your customers!
I wouldn't have made any fuss if they have sent me inbetween a.) a mail stating that they have recognized the error and that they found my pledge information and b.) that they pick/finished my pledge before receiving a shipping notice from postal service. From my point of view their process is seriously flawed. And having ordered from way smaller companies/taking part in kickstarters (i.e. one person companies) I know that there are way better solutions feasible even if you are small.
And while their quality is admittedly (way) above average it is certainly not stellar. So far I built the UCM ships (--> Yes I decided to keep at least the UCM and Scourge) and I was actually disappointed by certain design choices. Some examples: I was not able to cut the gun turrets from the sprues without damaging because the connection to the frames is in the middle of the cannon muzzle (?). And the design of the compartment for the troop Transporter leaves recognizable gaps that make me cringe everytime I look at the ship. So much to do to get this to a good standard.
And actually I've done more than 50 miniature based Kickstarter projects... And HAWK is easily in the top five contenders for worst experience!
That's... Wh--huh?
I hope you use your superlative luck to game the stock market.
I can think of at least ten that I've pledged for that were worse, and not only have I pledged for fewer than 50, I also was one of the forgotten few of this campaign. Yes, it sucks that Hawk thinks BOW is a genuine avenue of communication, and it sucks that they have Speedy Gonzales's cousin packing the shipments, but keep things in perspective: you know they will deliver, eventually, and you know the product will of worthy quality. Sell your rewards in spite of you want, but for the love of the innocent, please stop spreading the harmful notion that the DFC Kickstarter fulfillment drama is almost the worst thing that can happen to a pledger's money.
How Do I know they will deliver when this is their first KS? I certainly have nowadays no doubt that CMoN will deliver because it's their umpteens KS. But here it was their first one.
I wrote exactly one mail to them and received a standard mail reading like "We're looking into it". Afterwards more than a month of radio silence until I received a shipping notice... From DPD... Not HAWK. That's not how you should treat your customers!
I wouldn't have made any fuss if they have sent me inbetween a.) a mail stating that they have recognized the error and that they found my pledge information and b.) that they pick/finished my pledge before receiving a shipping notice from postal service. From my point of view their process is seriously flawed. And having ordered from way smaller companies/taking part in kickstarters (i.e. one person companies) I know that there are way better solutions feasible even if you are small.
And while their quality is admittedly (way) above average it is certainly not stellar. So far I built the UCM ships (--> Yes I decided to keep at least the UCM and Scourge) and I was actually disappointed by certain design choices. Some examples: I was not able to cut the gun turrets from the sprues without damaging because the connection to the frames is in the middle of the cannon muzzle (?). And the design of the compartment for the troop compartment leaves recognizable gaps that make me cringe everytime I look at the ship. So much to do to get this to a good standard.
Give me a reason they wouldn't deliver. Your saying they rather screw over some hundred people, never give them the KS? You realize that would ruin the company if they did that don't you? That's the opposite of what they want, so there is ZERO reason they would not deliver everyone their KS pledge
I don't get why you are making a fuss now. You got your stuff, so who cares? Their process sucks, we have beaten that horse to death, but your STILL trying to raise up pitch forks for Hawk even though you have your items
As to the quality, your just nitpicking to nitpick. Its multi part plastic models. I know a few people who have UCM and have had no assembly problems with the turrets or gaps issues. Seems like its a builder error.
Oh sorry. I didn't know that any comments about the KS experience and a critical assessment of quality are not allowed here.
I don't get why YOU are attacking me from telling about MY experience to inform OTHERS. Yes, I'm critical of the quality. I'm paying quite a high price for such models and according are my standards!
Share your experience. Let others decide who is right... But I won't certainly stop voicing my experience!
SKR.HH wrote: Oh sorry. I didn't know that any comments about the KS experience and a critical assessment of quality are not allowed here.
I don't get why YOU are attacking me from telling about MY experience to inform OTHERS. Yes, I'm critical of the quality. I'm paying quite a high price for such models and according are my standards!
Share your experience. Let others decide who is right... But I won't certainly stop voicing my experience!
I'm not saying you cant express frustration. I've said a 100 times now I was frustrated with it. Everyone here agrees they screwed up. No one is denying that.
What I am questioning is why the continued hate for it after you have received your items. throwing statements on questioning if they will even ship the rest is ridiculous.
I personally will never back another hawk KS if they ever do one again, but I don't go around forums saying over and over how horrible it all is.
I'm sorry. I might have misinterpreted the sentence about 'not getting their pledge'. I assumed this was supposed to be at the point of time where I send the mail.
I agree that it is most likely that people still waiting will get their packages (outside the "usual" hickups with postal services).
I think the contentious matter here is the accusation that they wouldn't deliver at all or are throwing up smokescreens to avoid sending pledges. When you step back from the "I don't have my stuff" or "It took vastly longer than was reasonable to get it compared to everyone else" viewpoint, the underlying idea that they would provide the promised product to 90%+ of backers and then abandon the remainder doesn't make any sense.
Not sending product to anyone? Sure, that's the blueprint of a plain old scam. Sending out the first wave of a project and then not sending out the later waves? Okay, we've seen that happen with myriad projects. Send out the exact same products to the overwhelming majority of the backers and retail, but then refuse to send those same products to a select sub-group? I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for other examples of that occurring because I don't recall seeing that ever happen. While you can claim there's a first time for everything, it's going to require a much higher burden of proof when there's other explanations about (such as, Hawk cocked up royally which is far simpler and fits the circumstances).
In terms of the product, I wouldn't go so far as to say "the end-all of spaceship models" but they are reasonably easy to work with and look nice once assembled. The San Francisco issue mentioned mirrors my own experience, and it's doubly unfortunate that the class is going to be quite common in lists for obvious reasons. I also strongly dislike some of the gates on the PHR ships, cruisers in particular. While they're not going to revolutionize the market forevermore, they are also far from the level of "crap shoved out to satisfy the contract" that you can see in many, many other KS projects.
As Bob said, this is far from the worst KS we as a community have seen. It's actually in the scope of things reasonably good for the majority of people on the project. The shame is that the problems Hawk DOES have with getting the last bits out the door are entirely of their own making and need not have happened at all.
And while their quality is admittedly (way) above average it is certainly not stellar. So far I built the UCM ships (--> Yes I decided to keep at least the UCM and Scourge) and I was actually disappointed by certain design choices. Some examples: I was not able to cut the gun turrets from the sprues without damaging because the connection to the frames is in the middle of the cannon muzzle (?). And the design of the compartment for the troop compartment leaves recognizable gaps that make me cringe everytime I look at the ship. So much to do to get this to a good standard.
As to the quality, your just nitpicking to nitpick. Its multi part plastic models. I know a few people who have UCM and have had no assembly problems with the turrets or gaps issues. Seems like its a builder error.
The gates on the turrets aren't well-placed, the San Fran modules don't go well together at all (especially the inner bay on the bottom). The same applies to the gates on the PHR Cruiser bodies, their location is very unfortunate - and oddly enough again the troop modules bottom bay aren't lining up well at all. Not a single one of these issues is a "builder error" but just how the sprues are done. I assume they HAD to place the gates there for some reason, but it's unfortunate.
Krinsath wrote: Send out the exact same products to the overwhelming majority of the backers and retail, but then refuse to send those same products to a select sub-group? I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for other examples of that occurring because I don't recall seeing that ever happen.
Actually happened to me twice but outside miniature/games campaigns. Well, without the retail part.
And while their quality is admittedly (way) above average it is certainly not stellar. So far I built the UCM ships (--> Yes I decided to keep at least the UCM and Scourge) and I was actually disappointed by certain design choices. Some examples: I was not able to cut the gun turrets from the sprues without damaging because the connection to the frames is in the middle of the cannon muzzle (?). And the design of the compartment for the troop compartment leaves recognizable gaps that make me cringe everytime I look at the ship. So much to do to get this to a good standard.
As to the quality, your just nitpicking to nitpick. Its multi part plastic models. I know a few people who have UCM and have had no assembly problems with the turrets or gaps issues. Seems like its a builder error.
The gates on the turrets aren't well-placed, the San Fran modules don't go well together at all (especially the inner bay on the bottom). The same applies to the gates on the PHR Cruiser bodies, their location is very unfortunate - and oddly enough again the troop modules bottom bay aren't lining up well at all. Not a single one of these issues is a "builder error" but just how the sprues are done. I assume they HAD to place the gates there for some reason, but it's unfortunate.
Jep... Turrets on the frigates sprue should have been turned by 90 degree (like on the cruiser sprue) to remedy this.
Krinsath wrote: Send out the exact same products to the overwhelming majority of the backers and retail, but then refuse to send those same products to a select sub-group? I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for other examples of that occurring because I don't recall seeing that ever happen.
Actually happened to me twice but outside miniature/games campaigns. Well, without the retail part.
So...it didn't actually happen then? The fact that you can buy things from retailers is both a sign that the situation is fundamentally different from what you're describing, and doubly infuriating for those affected since clearly it's not a shortage of product that's the problem. Not that an ordering shortage would be somehow excusable mind you, just that not having the goods to send would move it into an entirely different scenario where the worry of non-fulfillment has a great deal more traction.
SKR.HH wrote: Jep... Turrets on the frigates sprue should have been turned by 90 degree (like on the cruiser sprue) to remedy this.
I'm not sure I recall having issues with the frigate turrets. I vaguely remember the first one I removed bending the barrels but then I cut the gates in a certain order and don't recall any others doing anything strange. What issues are you guys finding? Perhaps I'm just not as detail-oriented and overlooked that I've wrecked them all.
Also repeating myself but it's needed because I *hate* this particular gate with a passion: the one on top of the PHR cruisers at the front. I hate that one.
I haven't built any PHR yet, but the Shaltari definitely have some poor gate placement. They also seem to be the trickiest to line up all the parts on correctly. Stupid scalene weapons triangle.
Anyway, for quality, these are still easily the best spaceship minis for gaming and/or of their size in the Western world. Battlefleet Gothic had some great plastics, but they are showing their age. Halo Fleet Battles' plastics have similar issues to the DFC ones, except that the frigates are tiny and disappointing, the detail is lacking due to a focus on ease of construction over aesthetics, there are no options or extras on the sprues, and the designs themselves are just not as interesting. Plus, HFB ships seem far more expensive, especially if you use the spare DFC bits to make corvettes, corvettes larger than HFB frigates. Firestorm Armada has no plastic ships, and all of my experiences with their resin lead me to consider them pricey junk.
Are there better spaceship minis? Yes. The new Bandai Mecha Colle are the Platonic ideal of what a plastic spaceship should be, and they are cheaper than DFC ships of a similar size. The only problem is that they are limited to one build that is difficult to covert and has a particular aesthetic that may not suit everyone. Also, they have no frigate are corvette sized minis since they are built to a size and not to scale.
In the end, though, the DFC ships are the undisputed champions when it comes to making a beautiful fleet with variety for a reasonable price. I can't foresee buying any more HFB or resin brand X's or scale models to convert in the near future when my money and hobby enjoyment will go so much farther with the DFC ship sprues.
Ive built/painted over 4000 points worth of PHR for DFC. While the injection line on the flat curved part isn't the best spot, I use a sharp blade and remove any sprue my clippers don't get and only takes a few seconds.
Also done 4000 worth of shaltari, and 1500 of scourge. I dunno, im not having issues with where it connects. Any kind of gaps are not there after its painted.
Friend got Toooons of HFB in its recent 50% off all products from Spartan sale, so got to see it painted up. It looks cool, but no where near as nice as DFC. Armada, Firestorm, HFB, BFG are all sub par on quality to DFC.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I haven't built any PHR yet, but the Shaltari definitely have some poor gate placement. They also seem to be the trickiest to line up all the parts on correctly. Stupid scalene weapons triangle.
Anyway, for quality, these are still easily the best spaceship minis for gaming and/or of their size in the Western world. Battlefleet Gothic had some great plastics, but they are showing their age. Halo Fleet Battles' plastics have similar issues to the DFC ones, except that the frigates are tiny and disappointing, the detail is lacking due to a focus on ease of construction over aesthetics, there are no options or extras on the sprues, and the designs themselves are just not as interesting. Plus, HFB ships seem far more expensive, especially if you use the spare DFC bits to make corvettes, corvettes larger than HFB frigates. Firestorm Armada has no plastic ships, and all of my experiences with their resin lead me to consider them pricey junk.
Are there better spaceship minis? Yes. The new Bandai Mecha Colle are the Platonic ideal of what a plastic spaceship should be, and they are cheaper than DFC ships of a similar size. The only problem is that they are limited to one build that is difficult to covert and has a particular aesthetic that may not suit everyone. Also, they have no frigate are corvette sized minis since they are built to a size and not to scale.
In the end, though, the DFC ships are the undisputed champions when it comes to making a beautiful fleet with variety for a reasonable price. I can't foresee buying any more HFB or resin brand X's or scale models to convert in the near future when my money and hobby enjoyment will go so much farther with the DFC ship sprues.
Please refer to the attached Picture depicting the connection between cannon and frame on the frigate sprue.
I was not able to remove the turret properly without cutting somewhat into the gun barrel/muzzle due to the thick connection on the middle barrel.
Now compare this to the Placement on the cruiser sprue:
I'm not disagreeing. I was just saying the Shaltari tiny teeth gates were worse, giving me a fleet of hockey players. (Potentially, since I only have one Shaltari cruiser and a battlecruiser. But I plan to expand.)
For the frigate turrets, I've been clipping the sides and then twisting the turrets to break the barrel gates. It's not a perfect solution, but I didn't end up clipping off the tips of the side barrels that way.
This thread is in News & Rumors to discuss developments on Dropzone / Dropfleet / anything pertaining to Hawk Wargames new releases or news for their games.
Many posters have expressed their take on the Kickstarter, but please refrain from going back and forth about it repeatedly (no matter your take), as that's not the purpose of this news thread. Additionally, while posts about model quality are fine, an in-depth discussion belongs elsewhere.
If anyone would like to start a new thread in the Misc Games section for more in-depth model discussion, please do so and link to it here!
So, with that, let's return to discussing any new developments on either of these games, or Kickstarter fulfillment. Thanks all
I just realized you might be saying you think the poor turret gates bring down the DFC quality below that of a competitor. I haven't seen a plastic spaceship kit yet that doesn't have at least one glaringly stupid gate attachment.
Whoops, sorry!
Does anyone know when the official minis of the battle cruisers and corvettes drop? For that matter, when do the space station sprues hit retail?
As for the fluff, supposedly there are two more factions due to present themselves in the next phase or two.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I just realized you might be saying you think the poor turret gates bring down the DFC quality below that of a competitor. I haven't seen a plastic spaceship kit yet that doesn't have at least one glaringly stupid gate attachment.
Whoops, sorry!
Does anyone know when the official minis of the battle cruisers and corvettes drop? For that matter, when do the space station sprues hit retail?
As for the fluff, supposedly there are two more factions due to present themselves in the next phase or two.
Battlecruisers = who knows
Frigate box and 2 Cruiser box is the 20th of this month released
Space station has been out for over a month retail.
Corvettes are more likely Feb March
I knew one faction was coming to both games, didn't know it was 2
I might have conflated one faction to both games as two factions. Speculation seems to be an AI race and some kind of advanced foe skulking around the Shaltari. But those aren't high quality rumors or anything.
As soon as my KDM budget crisis is resolved, I'm going to have to get that station kit. How many sprues in it, again?
Barrels, well you need a different cutter then, had no problems getting them off the sprue. You jast had too look how to cut best, but that can happen to you with nearly all plastic sprues and smaller bits. You need to clip away a bit away from the connection and later clip directly at the gun.
Got mine a couple of weeks ago. I stood staring at the box for a minute, wondering what it was, 'til I saw the Hawk logos on the tape.
Might be an indication of how long it took to arrive, but frankly, I forgot about it not long after the KS ended. I knew it'd take a while, even without the inevitable delays and hiccups from a big gaming kickstarter, and it'd get here when it got here. To expect much else, viewing KS as simply a preorder service, wringing your hands as you watch the clock, and especially after seeing all the roaring, fist-shaking, and cries of 'never ever' in other KS threads here, is well... Hofstadter's Law, guys.
And for tiny awkward pieces like those turrets, use a knife, not clippers, for the tricky bits.
I used to feel like anyone who whined about this campaign could just suck it up because I didn't have my pledge yet. Then I got my pledge and went, "ok, we're there. Everyone will be satisfied shortly." Now I have my first ever fully painted army (any gaming system ever) in front of me and some people are still waiting?
Absolute insanity. A turtle could out-paint me. Insanity.
For posterity sake, and a great post mortem down the road, for those still without their pledge, early or late backer? Do you have an exact date of your pledge?
Hawk's latest Kickstarter update addressed many things, including an update of where they are on shipping, pledges, a new website, and the first installment in a new series of videos documenting the creation of the 10mm scale Avenger!
Dave says that the series will be twenty videos in total, with two being released every week. Well worth a watch! Their YouTube channel has suddenly sprung to life after over three years of hibernation, which is nice to see. Hopefully they might put out more content on there in the future!
In a way it's a nice step back in time, as it must have been a couple of years ago now when Dave started this. Very interestingly, he mentions that the initial launch of Dropzone required more work, which is hard to believe when you see the pile of resin on the table before him! Truly awesome stuff...
The update states that they have learnt a lot in regards to the whole Kickstarter process. It seems as though I was fortunate with my pledge, and it is a shame to hear some of the stories that some of you folks have posted. I must admit that I was prepared for anything to happen to my mine, having heard tale of other KS woes.
This is a legitimate question and not meant to derail this thread. But is there any DZC news? This thread used to be for both of Hawk's games. Obviously they have been very focused on releasing this new game, which is best. But I was wondering if we have any info on DZC. There is no other thread for that game at the moment. Thanks
"I am happy to confirm we have some news to look forward to this year, and it's got me pumped!"
And...
"The only other rumour I can bring you, kind of, is the following series of avatars on display, including a Scourge warrior being penned by the very talented Mr Patrice at the event. These avatars are for... well, I can't tell you that, but they're for something exciting!"
Every race included! Could this be concepts for a skirmish-level Dropzone universe game? I hope so!
Two more videos are up for the Building the Avenger series:
The next video will see Dave building all of the Condors and such. It is apparent that a massive amount of thought went into this project. His determination is inspiring!
I really doubt they'll be planning another game so soon after DFC. They are still a VERY small company after all, they can't afford to stretch themselves too thin. Seems like they nearly killed themselves fulfilling the DFCKS.
. But it is a briefcase of plastic all on its own, and by far the best looking sprues of the lot, 
. Obviously they're right on in focusing on finishing the last shipments first!
emails and send out our 
