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Post by: warboss
Eldarain wrote:Really like those bases.
INDEED! They caught my eye earlier and I asked about them so I'm glad that they're detailing them. RiTides wrote:On that base - Oh man, I think I'm in love. The color will show how "visible" that ship is to others, and the altitude indicator, along with damage, all right there... very cool!
It does look like the fire arcs won't come painted (it says "painting optional") - but as these are aimed at miniature gamers who will be painting the actual models too, that shouldn't be an issue (since they're raised and thus easy to paint white).
It looks like each arc is 1/4 the base (and 4 hull point hole markers). The 3 atmoshpere states look like they'll each have 4 energy status indicators that you twist the inner circle to indicate. What I don't know is how you'll indicate the damage though along with that. Unless the inner most circle with the damage numbers also twists around separately from the main middle circle, I can't figure out how you can make that damage with just one moving part. edit: nevermind. Hurpadurp.. it says they're using a peg in the pic. I'm not a fan of that part though as I expect those pegs will be very fiddly and easy to lose.
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Post by: RiTides
Yeah, I'd like to see the peg they have in mind - and could see making different ones if the ones they supply are too small to see / too fiddly.
Rotating the base to indicate both orbital layer and ship status is really cool, though - will cut down on bookkeeping immensely and help you know which ships to target. I.e. the one that is lit up like a Christmas tree because it fired all its guns last turn  or the one you can knock out of orbit since it has ventured too low...
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Post by: Compel
 Hulksmash wrote:
I call a bit of bull. They were "hoping" this would pay for a plastic starter. Were they just going to put out the plastic starter with no support? Probably not. So they would then be planning on releasing I'm assuming the primary factions they have had since day 1. They even have said they thought PHR would be opened up like in week 3. So they obviously were planning beyond the starter and it's piss poor planning to me.
Dropzone Commander had the plastic starter set out about 15 months before they could do the plastics for any other factions. Until that point, the other factions were entirely resin. Even now, the Resistance faction is resin.
Hawk probably don't need to go to ks to release a resin based game. It's the sheer upfront costs of plastics that caused them to go to kickstarter.
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Post by: zedmeister
Looks like you can add on after the pledge manager closes
Creator Hawk Wargames 25 minutes ago
Dear Andrew Rees,
You don't have to pledge up front - you can add on when we are at the pledge manager stage. you can also add in stages, pledging now, then upping (or if desired, reducing) your total pledge later. The other thing to remember is that for bolt-ons you can alter what you have pledged that money for - for example, if you added £35 to your pledge for a UCM starter fleet, you could (when deciding at the manager stage) use that £35 for a Shaltari fleet instead, or even something else up to the value of £35. It's very flexable to let you decide exactly what's right for you.
- The Hawk Team
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Well, that settles that. I'll stay in at Commander and Mantic all over the pledge manager.
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Post by: GiraffeX
Having a flexible pledge manager will mean I'll probably be in for this as well.
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Post by: zedmeister
New load of miniature unlocks have appeared - interesting
£250k - Kickstarter Exclusive Paper Radar Map (Bolt-on)
£275k - Miniature Unlock to be announced
£290k - Accessories Unlock to be announced
£300k - High Rank Backers - 1 Free Shaltari Frigate Sprue (makes 4 Frigates)
£310k - Miniature Unlock to be announced
£325k - Miniature Unlock to be announced
£350k - High Rank Backers - 1 Free PHR Frigate Sprue (makes 4 Frigates)
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Post by: Mymearan
Probably cruiser bolt-ons?
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Post by: zedmeister
Or battleships? Terrain? Here's hoping...
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Post by: Weidekuh
I highly doubt that they will give away anything else than Cruisers and Frigates through the kickstarter. They where adamant about not cannibalizing too many sales from stores.
Battleships, Dreadnoughts, Corvettes and whatever other shipclass will very likely be retail only.
I fully support their decision to do it like that.
The kickstarter is not about getting everything, it's "just" about getting the starter in plastic as to make the entry as cheap as possible for new players.
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Post by: zedmeister
I reckon that we'll see Battleships make an appearance at the very least. We've already seen the UCM earlier and I think it's safe to say that the Scourge one is ready to go too. The question becomes, will they tool them for plastics.
Also, hoping we see Destroyer type craft. Good for hunting down those silent running types...
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Post by: Thimn
I would be pretty surprised if we saw Battleships get added to the kickstarter. The focus has always been just getting the plastic starters. I wouldn't complain mind you but I fully support them in this being limited. They want to support the local store after all and I think more companies need go keep that in mind when they do a kickstarter
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I suspect the issue of adding any other plastic to the KS (beyond the 4 starters they hoped to fund) is time/slots in the plastic production schedule
They'll have at least a 'downpayment/hold' on the slots they need for the starters so should be able to fulfil ontime in one shipment assuming all goes well,
but given this is a very busy industry adding in the time needed to transfer a resin sculpt to plastic (not nessesarily simple), then get a mould cut, then get time on the plastic production machine and packing line could well see either a very substantial slip (6months to a year at minimum at a guess based on what renendra's workload is)
or a 2 wave shipment situation with all the hassle, unknown costs (postage keeps rising) etc of that
They'd probably be better off 'banking' the extra cash and using it to do plastics for some of the stuff they originally conceived as resin but outside of the KS (meaning they ships would be cheaper on release, more incentive for people to buy and play and stores to stock)
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Post by: Mymearan
Yeah there won't be any more plastic but they've said they will add exclusive cruisers for all races, so that should be forthcoming!
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Post by: RiTides
I would love, even if not for the KS, for them to try to do more ships in plastic. But I totally understand they won't be added to the campaign / within their launch timeline (which is "only" the summer - injection molding takes so much planning!).
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Post by: Krinsath
Yeah, for the reasons outlined by Orlando I'd expect any future ships offered in the KS to be resins or additional bolt-on parts for the plastic hulls.
In the BoW videos there's mention made of dreadnoughts, battleships, corvettes and flak cruisers that I'm not sure we've seen anything about. Plus it would be wholly unsurprising to see super-carriers.
Given the game's focus on an orbital invasion I doubt we'll see much in the way of civilian ships, but fleet tenders and pickets and similar support ships would be interesting too. 
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Post by: Mymearan
Civilian ships carrying refugees and trying to escape the planet would be cool
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Post by: judgedoug
Question - did Renedra do the plastics for Dropzone Commander? IIRC wasn't it a softer plastic that used 3d files? That would imply a different manufacturer than Renedra.
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Post by: zedmeister
The £290k accessory unlock revealed: £290k - Dropfleet Commander Bases Pack (Bolt-On) 
And...
£250k - Kickstarter Exclusive Paper Radar Map (Bolt-On and Free for High Rank Backers)
Captain and Admiral level
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Post by: warboss
Hopefully they'll sell the bases separately at retail as well. I'd pledge for them if the shipping cost didn't kill that idea.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
 judgedoug wrote:Question - did Renedra do the plastics for Dropzone Commander? IIRC wasn't it a softer plastic that used 3d files? That would imply a different manufacturer than Renedra.
Hmm that might be an incorrect assumption on my part, I know the DZC plastic is produced in the UK so I'm assuming Renendra, but I could well be wrong
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
It is rather heavy plastics DZC uses.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 Krinsath wrote:
In the BoW videos there's mention made of dreadnoughts, battleships, corvettes and flak cruisers that I'm not sure we've seen anything about. Plus it would be wholly unsurprising to see super-carriers.
There is a model for the Beijing class battleship (the big one at the back) which will supposedly be the upper limit in terms of ship size
 .
I think you mean flak Frigates, the Jakarta class frigate appears to be the UCM version
 .
Corvettes/destroyers will probably be a thing but I'm not sure that Dreadnoughts will even exist if Battleships are the upper size limit although they could well be simply a type of Battleship, like the real world versions were.
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Post by: Dark Severance
 RiTides wrote:Rotating the base to indicate both orbital layer and ship status is really cool, though - will cut down on bookkeeping immensely and help you know which ships to target. I.e. the one that is lit up like a Christmas tree because it fired all its guns last turn or the one you can knock out of orbit since it has ventured too low...
Do any of the videos show examples of how the dials work?
Although in theory they seem like a great idea to cut down on record keeping, I think it might create other issues, depending on how easy the dials turn. My concern is constant fiddling with the ships causes them to move slightly to fidget position. Some people might have an issue simply turning it, so I can see people picking it up to turn to put it back and having people arguing over position of where the ship was. If it turns too easy then I'd be worried about fudging the dials while I move my ship.
In reality though is it really cutting back on bookkeeping or simply moving it to a different place? I am thinking of X-Wing in this example. We usually have cards on the side, with markers on them for damage, etc. By putting it in the stand, it is the same book-keeping just relocated.
It is a neat design and something I had thought about doing for some games. The closest I've gotten without being too fuddly is using CorSec stands with dice holders for d6 that held them in the stand for counters. They were bulky enough for everyone to easily see, without there being an issue with someone moving a piece and 'changing' something accidentally (or on purpose in some cases).
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
The dials look like they should function like old rotary phones. Use one hand to hold down the rim, then put a finger from the other hand into the window slot of the disk and turn it. There's room for it to go wrong, but it doesn't really look any more complex mechanically than a heroclix base.
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Post by: Dark Severance
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:The dials look like they should function like old rotary phones. Use one hand to hold down the rim, then put a finger from the other hand into the window slot of the disk and turn it. There's room for it to go wrong, but it doesn't really look any more complex mechanically than a heroclix base.
Yeah but heroclix play on a grid so taking a piece off the board or if it moved from a space is easier to see. Granted spaceship games tend to not need to be that fiddly because there typically isn't line of sight to worry about, and I doubt 1/2-1 inch a different direction I doubt would make a huge difference. Just trying to think issues through from a game tournament standpoint and/or sometimes just pain in the arse players. LOL!
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
It looks like Space stations are incoming.
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Post by: Mymearan
That's probably a PHR ship of some sort!
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Post by: Malika2
Stations? Awesome! Very curious to see what they'll come up with!
By the way, will there also be ordnance? Stuff like torpedoes, fighters, bombers, landers, etc?
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
i really, really hope not. It also doesn't seem to match the PHR aesthetic.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
If they take a note from Aeronautica Imperialis then we don´t need to worry about the dials.
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Post by: RiTides
I actually think they might be unlocking something other than the KS exclusive Battlecruisers (which now that I know they will simply "count-as" a normal type of cruiser, I'm not as interested in - good for the long-term health of the game, though).
The KS exclusives are listed at the very bottom of the stretch goal map as time based unlocks:
Timed based Rewards:
25th November - KS Exclusive Battlecruisers for Scourge, Shaltari and PHR (Bolt-on)
But in the normal stretch goal map, there are these slots:
Still Locked:
£275k - Miniature Unlock to be announced
£290k - Dropfleet Commander Bases Pack (Bolt-On)
£300k - High Rank Backers - 1 Free Shaltari Frigate Sprue (makes 4 Frigates)
£310k - Miniature Unlock to be announced
£325k - Miniature Unlock to be announced
£350k - High Rank Backers - 1 Free PHR Frigate Sprue (makes 4 Frigates)
Only 3 of the "Miniature Unlock to be announced" lines, but it certainly seems like it must be the above station at £275k, since they preceded the picture with this line:
We will have a lot more information about the next few stretch goals in the next update, along with some more previews too. But in the mean time...
I'm going to guess that it is a civilian space station or the like that would function as terrain / an objective / something to defend or attack in a scenario (they are very big on scenario play in DzC and seemingly will be here, too). Copying the pic over to the new page:
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 Malika2 wrote:
By the way, will there also be ordnance? Stuff like torpedoes, fighters, bombers, landers, etc?
There are strike craft (but not torps or boarding craft)but no idea what they do except that fighters can be assigned to ships to increase their point defense value.
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Post by: awbbie
 Silent Puffin? wrote: Malika2 wrote:
By the way, will there also be ordnance? Stuff like torpedoes, fighters, bombers, landers, etc?
There are strike craft (but not torps or boarding craft)but no idea what they do except that fighters can be assigned to ships to increase their point defense value.
That's too bad about the Torpedos and boarding craft but I can see it. I'm interested to see how they do this, as the ordnance phase was one of the things that made Battlefleet Gothic so good.
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Post by: nekooni
I'm looking forward to it, gameplay from the BoW videos looks awesome!
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Well, I caved, this just looks too good to pass up!
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Post by: RiTides
Nice, welcome aboard Alex 
I think the two starter pledge in particular is amazing, if you can find someone else who wants in! (Even if you both just want a starter each and split the stretch goals)
We're actually splitting one three ways (UCM for me, Scourge, and everything else!). But even if you both want to keep both factions, since the exclusive ship has no gameplay content (just counts as another type of cruiser) it's not a huge loss for one to go without it (I'm actually forgoing it in our pledge even though I'm doing UCM - the later battleships will be my centerpiece!)
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Yeah I went with the 2x 2-player starter with the KS exclusive ship. With the free cruisers, frigates and map it really tempted me over the edge! Added a couple of map packs and am looking forward to seeing the space stations and other battlecruisers.
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Post by: Hulksmash
If I go in it'll be at the Captain level. If it hits 500k then I can sell enough of the stuff I don't want more than likely to make it worth my cash so early.
Looking forward to whenever we see PHR. That's the faction I'm most interested in because it's the only one I'm kinda interested in on the ground game.
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Post by: RiTides
Yeah it seems like a really good value - 20 free ships once we hit 350k (250k already, can't imagine we wouldn't get there by the end!). And even a single starter will get 20 free ships if it hits 500k (and double starter pledges would get 36, not even counting the KS exclusive).
Can always swap some of the extras with folks who plan to run those factions, too
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Post by: overtyrant
Not botherd about the value, I just want to help KS this project (even though they don't need it!) I hope they do mouse mat style gaming mats and t-shirts as add ons.
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Post by: Weidekuh
Dave confirmed in the podcast, that there will be torbedoes! But boarding would only be done via command cards, if it will even be in. This is not 40k. 
More on torbedoes:
Usually missiles and such are counted as close action weapons. They can't fire outside your scanning range, because they would be all shot down by enemy point defense anyway. "standard" sized torpedoes should also be included as a close action weapon.
The torpedoes that will be used as a special weapon in Dropfleet are not the torpedoes we know. They may even get another name. They are huge, like 1/3 size of a frigate. They are so heavely armored that point defense can't shoot them down before impact. This kind of torpedo is used as dreadnought killer. It still has only a short range, because aiming. But they are the bane of heavely armored vessels.
So far, only PHR has a ship with those "special" torpedoes.
All infos taken from the podcast. And i have to say, it sounds awesome.
EDIT: Fighters and bombers will have models according to the podcast.
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Post by: Compel
Kind of reminds me of the "Dreadnought" from that Star Trek Voyager episode.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
So much hate in the comment section...
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Comment section of what?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Dropfleet Commander.
Y'know, the Kickstarter that this thread is about...
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I have a rule about not venturing into KS comment threads, so please share with me what the hate is about. Rules? Pricing? Brian Blessedlessness?
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Post by: judgedoug
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I have a rule about not venturing into KS comment threads, so please share with me what the hate is about. Rules? Pricing? Brian Blessedlessness?
As far as I can tell, every Kickstarter since Bones 1 has complained about not having as many miniatures in it as Bones 1, despite the fact that most Bones 1 ended up buried in closets.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
judgedoug wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:I have a rule about not venturing into KS comment threads, so please share with me what the hate is about. Rules? Pricing? Brian Blessedlessness?
As far as I can tell, every Kickstarter since Bones 1 has complained about not having as many miniatures in it as Bones 1, despite the fact that most Bones 1 ended up buried in closets.
Most of my Bones 1 was painted by minors and lost in the back yard/eaten by the dog. Money well spent.
While I will never argue against more miniatures in a kickstarter campaign, I'd consider Dropfleet to be solidly on the quality-over-quantity side, a Kingdom Death: Monster of spaceships if you will.
How does DFC compare to the Halo game? It seems like Halo gives you more ships, but they are smaller on average, for a slightly higher price. Certainly DFC blows Armada out of the water on every metric except play-it-out-of-the-boxiness and IP-milkability.
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Post by: zedmeister
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Post by: judgedoug
That's beautiful. OMG I may have to get a UCM and PHR fleet.
They look like Giger xenomorph heads - so that's probably why I am in love with them
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Post by: warboss
The PHR look great!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
That's a quality spaceship.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
I'm going to have to find out how the really glossy white PHR were painted for DZC, it would suit these ships perfectly.
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Post by: Souleater
A couple of thin coats of gloss varnish over the white, I suspect.
Agreed that would look pretty neat.
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Post by: AAN
Great ship design, the Alien analogy struck me also.
Now it pains me even more that I am "forced" to get Scourge...
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Post by: Krinsath
Yeah, I'm liking the PHR and the UCM. I can live with the Scourge, and I'd have to see the Shaltari in person but I'm not a fan of the renders.
So, a pretty decent success rate overall, IMO. I'll probably end up at Captain+ at the rate they're going.
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Post by: Salacious Greed
Man, I love the sleek design of that PHR ship. Very minimalist but enhanced by the fins. Can't wait to see these on a board!
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Post by: judgedoug
 Souleater wrote:A couple of thin coats of gloss varnish over the white, I suspect.
Agreed that would look pretty neat.
mix some Vallejo Gloss Medium into your white, apply a few thin coats. Automatically Appended Next Post: Krinsath wrote:Yeah, I'm liking the PHR and the UCM. I can live with the Scourge, and I'd have to see the Shaltari in person but I'm not a fan of the renders.
So, a pretty decent success rate overall, IMO. I'll probably end up at Captain+ at the rate they're going.
Honestly the Shaltari look so bizarre and alien that I think once they're 3d and in-hand they'll be several orders of magnitude better - and imagine a whole fleet of them on the table.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I love the Shaltari designs. I don't actually understand what is so off-putting about them. They look a bit like Babylon 5 ships.
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Post by: Mymearan
Gak that really cements my PHR choice...
Mod Edit: Be careful not to circumvent the swear filter, please!
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Post by: Ghaz
judgedoug wrote:That's beautiful. OMG I may have to get a UCM and PHR fleet.
They look like Giger xenomorph heads - so that's probably why I am in love with them
Actually to me they bear a passing resemblance to some of the Zentraedi ships from Robotech. I still like them however
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Post by: warboss
I really like the design but there is something about the fins in the head on view that once seen can't be unseen...
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Post by: Hulksmash
If it hits 500k I'm in. Totally sold on PHR and UCM model wise. Don't really care about the rest model wise but it'll come with enough stuff to be worth it at that point
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Post by: Krinsath
judgedoug wrote:
Honestly the Shaltari look so bizarre and alien that I think once they're 3d and in-hand they'll be several orders of magnitude better - and imagine a whole fleet of them on the table.
Yeah, I think you're right which I want to reserve judgement until I see them. Weird designs on paper often get much better in reality. However, in the " KS money" equation I've learned not to bet that way on the initial pledge. Plus, it's not like I can't find other things like mats to spend the money on when the time comes to actually decide what I want.
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Post by: Eldarain
Still not sure how I feel about the folding paper mats. Seems like a stopgap placeholder not something to be spending 15 pounds a set on.
Is there a folding equivalent to these for DZC? Maybe my impression of what's on offer is off.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 Eldarain wrote:Still not sure how I feel about the folding paper mats. Seems like a stopgap placeholder not something to be spending 15 pounds a set on.
Is there a folding equivalent to these for DZC? Maybe my impression of what's on offer is off.
The boxed set comes with one. Its fairly sturdy but its still just paper so it doesn't last. I would be very interested in plastic versions though.
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Post by: Compel
I kinda don't get why there's doubt about the Shaltari to be honest. - It seems to me that they're the faction that's closest to their Dropzone Commander counterparts.
Particularly comparing them against the gates, Firedrake and the Totem Warspire.
I think I'm sticking with my initial plan of going for Captain, then holding off to get the PHR at retail. - I'm actually kinda mixed about that cruiser design myself for some reason.
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Post by: JOHIRA
Holy. Yes. I'm in.
Exact words spoken out loud just now.
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Post by: NTRabbit
 warboss wrote:
I really like the design but there is something about the fins in the head on view that once seen can't be unseen...
You cruel fiend
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Post by: RiTides
Luckily, that's kind of a fake 2D head-on computer view, you'll never actually view it that way 
But yeah, not cool warboss
Really love the PHR design aesthetic! I look forward to playing against it . The 3 of us splitting a pledge are now solidified as UCM, Scourge, and PHR.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Halo ist FSA repackaged and altered somehow. Nice, but not really up to DFC. Also the packaging of the overlays tries to copy X-Wing but does not really get it right.
This makes my choice easier... Shaltari or PHR? PHR it is for my UCM as opponent.
The ship actually remindes me of a Barracuda.
Original PHR painting was ivory and white and then gloss over it.
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Post by: Krinsath
 Compel wrote:I kinda don't get why there's doubt about the Shaltari to be honest. - It seems to me that they're the faction that's closest to their Dropzone Commander counterparts.
Particularly comparing them against the gates, Firedrake and the Totem Warspire.
Might have something to do with the fact that I don't care for the Shaltari aesthetic in DZC either. However, for some reason I'm a bit more lenient with how my alien spaceships look then how alien ground-based assets look so I'm not going to write-off the faction. I'll concede it's odd, but that's why I'm skeptical that I'll get sometthing I want out of that money and would need more convincing on that one.
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Post by: zedmeister
In the PHR excitment, I forgot to post this: Free for all backers:  Wonder if they'll allow more of them to be purchased...?
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Compel wrote:I kinda don't get why there's doubt about the Shaltari to be honest. - It seems to me that they're the faction that's closest to their Dropzone Commander counterparts.
See, that's the reason I'm not as excited by them as I am by the other three races, despite wanting a Shaltari fleet. The other three - UCM and Scourge in particular - look quite different to their ground vehicles, but the Shaltari just look like I'll be painting more of the same red models.
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Post by: RiTides
You guys asked for it, and it's here - a pledge that lets you get more faction starters instead of a second starter set! Also each of the exclusive Battlecruisers!
Update #7 - We are listening, and we would like to present...
1. It feels like a long time since we launched this Kickstarter, however as we enter day 6 (and if you are following closely on these updates, you will notice this is for the second time - we thought it was already day 6 yesterday; it was only day 5) we are excited by the continued uptake and interest there has been. Thank you again!
2. The next key point of this update is to let you all know that we have been reading your comments and seeing emails about the pledge levels. We have taken stock of what many have been saying about the Captain Pledge level specifically, and would like to therefore present a brand new pledge level: The Commodore Pledge Level.
For this pledge, you will get:
1 x Dropfleet Commander 2 Player Starter Set
2 x Faction Starter Fleets of your choice from UCM, Scourge, PHR, Shaltari
Kickstarter Exclusive UCMF Atlantis model.
3 x Kickstarter Exclusive Battlecruisers (choice from those unlocking on the 25th Nov)
This is a "High Rank" Level and so all backers at this level receive the High Rank Rewards as well as the "All Backer" Rewards.
3. The final topic for the update today, is that we are announcing what the next unlock is:
The Launch Assets Pack will unlock at the £275k mark - which we are quite close to now! This pack will be explained in full in the next update.
Thank you again for your support!
The Hawk Wargames Team
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Post by: Mymearan
That seals it, Commodore for me, should net me enough of each race to get some games going... And I'm all over those fighters. I didn't think they'd do them but that is fantastic news.
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Post by: zedmeister
Tasty! And leaves me with a dilemma... Captain or commodore...?
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Its kinda a bummer for me. Resistance is my favorite army. I hope they get something for this game. like maybe a special scenario ship.
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Post by: 10penceman
Phr is going to be my side although would like the armoured hull parts little more segmented than flat. Ucm and phr for me I think
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Aren't the Resistance the one faction unlikely to use massive spaceships? Even so, if you want a Resistance fleet, they should be the easiest faction to convert for. Heck, just buy some Halo or Yamato ships and add on all the spare UCM guns you can find.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Dave pretty much ruled out Resistance for DFC in a recent podcast.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 Alex C wrote:Dave pretty much ruled out Resistance for DFC in a recent podcast.
No surprise there.
I cannot see how a ragtag faction of resistance fighters hiding from an invading alien presence on their world could develop a fleet without causing attention.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
No surprise there.
I cannot see how a ragtag faction of resistance fighters hiding from an invading alien presence on their world could develop a fleet without causing attention.
They weren't completely ruled out, a fleet would certainly be impossible but there are apparently some sort of resistance elements planned, Defence monitors were one suggestion. Quite how people hiding underground on planets whose entire fleet of space capable craft were either destroyed or fled the Scourge invasion still have Monitors is anyones guess but....
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Post by: zedmeister
Alex C wrote:Dave pretty much ruled out Resistance for DFC in a recent podcast.
Sort of. This is summary of what he said: The planetary resistance wouldn't have much space craft beyond the use of shuttles, maybe heavy lifters. All local craft were destroyed by the invasion. Pre-war Earth vessels may have made random "Leg-it" jumps to save themselves when faced with the hordes of Scourge. They would have ended up on distant unexplored systems and in the gaps between stars occasionally doing daring raids on the cradle worlds to grab supplies, fuel, etc. Dave called these Survivors and they will most likely either be Scenario ships (rescue this pre-war vessel) or may even be purchasable in very limited amounts for UCM fleets. I do seem to remember when a group of us collared him at Salute that he mentioned that some may have turned pirate, so you could have the odd frigate raiders and the like.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Right, but they won't be showing up as a faction.
The odd allied or scenario vessel, sure, but not a whole fleet.
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Post by: RiTides
You guys have it - if you want to hear it from Dave himself it's at about 41:30 in this interview:
http://firstwave.podbean.com/e/episode-23-dropfleet-special/
The FLGS players were just discussing this over email this morning, and it makes sense to me. It would be cool to have some pre-invasion relics still functioning (that "fled the scene" as zedmeister described above during the invasion, and have been hiding out in space since) and he definitely sounds open to making some, particularly for scenarios. But he really was adamant that they couldn't maintain a whole fleet and so wouldn't have their own faction list (which makes sense).
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Post by: Compel
There was a specific shout out to Battlestar Galactica style things though.
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Post by: nedTCM
Compel wrote:There was a specific shout out to Battlestar Galactica style things though.
That is exactly what I thought when I heard it. It certainly seems like something could be fleshed out down the line as a separate faction. Either as resistance or as a space based warlord pirateish fleet.
If those are playable as a complete faction though seem unlikely at this juncture. We il have to wait and see.
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Post by: Nicorex
I am with Hulk on this one.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
If you go in now you can help it hit £500k
You can always pull out before the end if you need to.
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Post by: RiTides
Splitting a pledge 4 ways will have a lot of appeal if we get that far - so many freebies for each faction! We've got a 4th local player in on ours now  (and for those not splitting, just trading the extras with others for the factions you want should be easy!)
There's been a nice jump in the total as people move up from the 110 to the 150 pledge with the 3 extra KS exclusive cruisers and the option to have other factions instead of the second starter set.
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Post by: Alpharius
Any pics of the new KS exclusives?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
They will be revealed on the 25th, going by the project page.
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Post by: RiTides
They're going to wait to reveal those until near the end of the campaign (it's a time based unlock, on November 25th). At least we're getting renders / pics of other things, though! I'm guessing the Ordnance is one of the things they wouldn't have originally been able to do in plastic, but are now since the Kickstarter is doing so well (he mentioned there are a few of these items in the podcast after discussing the Resistance).
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
The ordnance is plastic? Where did they say that?
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Welllll, time to get a new prescription again.
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Post by: warboss
Yeah, hallucinations can be a real bother.
I do like the way they're doing fighters/bombers. I was actually planning on doing the same thing for halo with some left over B5 fleet action scale fighter minis.
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Post by: zedmeister
New update:
Update #8 - An eary Update and Launch Assets Pack Described
As a few of the team are in the midst of travelling to various locations - Belgium for Crisis, Germany for a Dropzone Commander Bootcamp and Wales for a Retailer Gaming day... So we thought it best to post an early update, especially considering the increase since yesterday evening ( UK time).
As this stretch goal has been well and truly unlocked, we thought we’d talk about how Fighters, Bombers and Torpedoes (known as ‘Launch Assets’) work. Each have strengths and weaknesses, but when used tactically they can cripple enemy ships and do damage that is disproportionate to their size. We are still testing the rules out, so they are subject to change, but currently Launch Assets have their own phase at the end of the turn. If the target is close enough to the launching ship, the Assets attack straight away, with only ship defences taking action. If not, they stay on the table until the next launch phase giving the opponent the opportunity to evade or get fighter cover.
Each type of Launch Asset has a distinct role in the game. Fighters and Bombers are typically launched from Fleet Carriers, with the player choosing which to launch. Bombers attack enemy ships directly and can inflict crippling damage, especially against targets with low point defence (such as most frigates). Fighters can be deployed to boost a ship's point defence, greatly reducing the bomber threat and protecting against enemy close action attacks.
Torpedoes are much rarer, fired only by select ships in limited numbers. They are designed to be capital ship killers and are massive, building sized ordnance. They are built to shrug off enemy point defence, with heavy armour surrounding an explosive core. Torpedoes punch into the centre of a ship before detonating, severely damaging battleships and dreadnoughts and destroying smaller escorts outright.
All three assets are truly tiny miniatures; as such the models offered are standard designs rather than race specific. They are somewhat larger than truescale (about 2-3x) when compared to the ships though, as we wanted them to be easily discernible! Due to the great success of the campaign so far we have the opportunity to produce them in full 3D injection moulded plastic complete with integrated flight stands! At their size it's simple to tie them to the rest of your fleet through painting choices, made easier and faster by the choice of black plastic, matching the bases of all the full sized ships.
Also unlocked, is the Dropfleet Commander Bases Pack!
(These include a clear rod for each base, along with sticker set.)
Thanks for your support, and we will be sharing information on the next few unlocks over the next few days!
The Hawk Wargames Team
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Post by: Mymearan
I hope they tell us how many of that add-on we should buy!
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Post by: NTRabbit
Oh wait, nevermind, carry on
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Post by: 10penceman
Will stick with the cardboard tokens hate painting that small a thing
Any one knoiw when we get to see more phr stuff?
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Post by: FeindusMaximus
Alex C wrote:
If you go in now you can help it hit £500k
You can always pull out before the end if you need to.
+1
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Post by: RiTides
Wow, 608 people jumped to Commodore already - it was only created yesterday! Compared to 840 at Captain. I think this points out a few things:
1) People are all about getting the pledge level with the most exclusives on Kickstarter (Commodore has all 3 exclusive Battlecruisers instead of one)
2) People really like the PHR and want to be able to run either those or Shaltari with their extra starters
3) People pledge a Lot on Kickstarter, that extra 40 pounds didn't phase folks at all! It could also be that they were assuming they'd add on for the exclusive cruisers when they unlocked anyway, and this just does it nicely in one go (and likely at a discount)
We're still sticking with our Captain pledge, which works well for us since we have a dedicated UCM and Scourge player, but it is great to see how popular that new pledge has been . Campaign is almost over £300K! (Just under £299K as I write this)
Ordnance pack does look good, and as someone else mentioned I hope they give a suggested amount to include... maybe 2 packs? If you paint them neutrally, you might even be able to share them between players, and just face them the appropriate direction like in BFG.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I always worry I'll forget to pull out. It's happened before
As it is the commodore package will probably be way I go for. It's basically pay retail and get these battlecruisers free. So if it hits the 500k again you get enough extra to offset it and you get what you want (i.e. no extra scourge in my case and 2 phr fleet starters).
This is shaping up well. Hopefully it maintains.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
RiTides wrote:
Ordnance pack does look good, and as someone else mentioned I hope they give a suggested amount to include... maybe 2 packs? If you paint them neutrally, you might even be able to share them between players, and just face them the appropriate direction like in BFG.
I just asked and they said 1 pack for a balanced fleet, 2-3 if you go carrier heavy.
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Post by: Baragash
But 9 months and ~10 years later you have another wargaming opponent.....wait, what were we talking about again?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
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Post by: RiTides
Ooookay, that's enough on that track, amusing as it was
Alex C wrote:I just asked and they said 1 pack for a balanced fleet, 2-3 if you go carrier heavy.
Brilliant, thanks!
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Post by: zedmeister
Just passed £300k. Free ships for everyone!
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Is it me, or are the scourge ships really fragile?
I saw the BoW videos, and they kept getting destroyed with no UCM casualties.
I know they are fragile in DzC, but at least there they have the skimmer defensive bonus and can hide.
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Post by: nedTCM
I think part of it was just some good vs bad rolling. The scourge rolled pretty bad saves and damage. His big ship took 3 auto hits and failed 4 out of 5 4+ saves. That is very bad luck.
The other thing to consider is that everyone went weapons free right away. Apparently in an actually game that is a big deal as it lights you up and lets long range hitters from all around the board chip away and your hitters. I think they were saying in an actual game you have ships all over the board grabbing objectives and stuff. So if scourge ships are as nimble as they are in DZ, they might be able to leverage more fire power vs individual ships by putting them at the peak of that major spike range.
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Post by: Compel
For what it's worth, they're not points'ed up yet. The video was more about the concepts of the rules than showing off a typical game, if that makes sense?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Yeah, that makes sense.
It did seem that the UCM ships are better at straight up fire fights, much like the UCM in DZC, the Hawk Wargames guy did have some outstanding bad luck.
It was just suprising to see the scourge get absolutely demolished like that.
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Post by: warboss
Aren't the scourge in DZC glass cannons? I don't play but I've watched a bunch of reviews and game play videos and that was mentioned a couple of times.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Simon (or possibly Dave) also mentioned that at this stage in the rules development, all Scourge ships can fly at the atmospheric level. That should help their survivability while they close.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
warboss wrote:Aren't the scourge in DZC glass cannons? I don't play but I've watched a bunch of reviews and game play videos and that was mentioned a couple of times.
They are, but even then they didn't seem to do anything to the UCM ships. Then again, their guns do deal 2 damage points, and there was some pretty terrible rolling. Technically the Shaltari are also glass cannons as their vehicles are pretty fragile compared to the other factions (en par with scourge), but they have passive counter measures to make up for it. Also, their Walkers are pretty god like. Ocelot particle cannon ( iirc) OP
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Post by: Mantle
I was worried how the PHR would look but I am loving the look so far, looks like PHR won't have as many guns/shots as other factions but I'm guessing they will be a 2+ to hit with their limited shots meaning 4+ crits, just my thoughts anyway. Can't wait to get hold of this game.
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Post by: JOHIRA
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, that makes sense.
It did seem that the UCM ships are better at straight up fire fights, much like the UCM in DZC, the Hawk Wargames guy did have some outstanding bad luck.
It was just suprising to see the scourge get absolutely demolished like that.
Let's also remember they were playing a game essentially with no strategic elements - it was a tiny board with objectives close together near the center. At those short distances the energy signatures aren't really a factor so there was no disincentive for lighting up with "Weapons Free!" at the first opportunity. I almost wonder if Simon wasn't intentionally making tactically unwise choices to facilitate showing the rules and getting the BoW guy excited. If he had made a slower, more spread-out approach, he could have baited BoW-guy into going weapons free at one target while the rest of his fleet was out of range, and then counterattacked the UCM ship from outside their range. It would have been a fun game, but it would have made a terrible Kickstarter video.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 JOHIRA wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, that makes sense. It did seem that the UCM ships are better at straight up fire fights, much like the UCM in DZC, the Hawk Wargames guy did have some outstanding bad luck. It was just suprising to see the scourge get absolutely demolished like that.
Let's also remember they were playing a game essentially with no strategic elements - it was a tiny board with objectives close together near the center. At those short distances the energy signatures aren't really a factor so there was no disincentive for lighting up with "Weapons Free!" at the first opportunity. I almost wonder if Simon wasn't intentionally making tactically unwise choices to facilitate showing the rules and getting the BoW guy excited. If he had made a slower, more spread-out approach, he could have baited BoW-guy into going weapons free at one target while the rest of his fleet was out of range, and then counterattacked the UCM ship from outside their range. It would have been a fun game, but it would have made a terrible Kickstarter video.
That is a good point. It is possible that he was holding back. It would be interesting to see a proper game. Maybe Blue Table Painting will showcase some detailed games, like they did with DZC.
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Post by: MrDwhitey
Do we still hate Blue Table Painting?
I think even with tactical play, the dice clearly hated Simon.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 MrDwhitey wrote:Do we still hate Blue Table Painting?
I think even with tactical play, the dice clearly hated Simon.
I was not aware that we hated BTP 
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Post by: Alpharius
There's a topic here - and BTP isn't it.
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Post by: warboss
MrDwhitey wrote:Do we still hate Blue Table Painting?
I think even with tactical play, the dice clearly hated Simon.
Ironically, I just posted in this "hello dakka" thread warning others about BTP.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/669609.page
Hate? Nah, that's too strong. I get wierded out by Shawn occasionally. But trust them to do a competent job when their terms of service say that can effectively hand you something painted to any random quality whenever they choose no matter what you actually contracted them to do and when? No way. I'd never use BTP unless I lived in the same town as Shawn so that I could follow the progress personally and address the concerns politely but firmly in person as well.
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Post by: Pael
I am really liking how this kick-starter is going they are successful but Hawk is not letting it go to their heads. Even though there are a ton of whiners wanting to get as much stuff as they can for as little as possible. Way to go Hawk War Games. Makes me feel secure in my backing it. I fell that I will actually get what they promise, unlike a lot of other kick-starters.
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Post by: nedTCM
I agree. I know they are a small company as well so it is good to they are behaving sensibly as a false move or two could bring them all crashing down.
Hopefully, it also helps push DZC's popularity as well.
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Post by: Alpharius
Have we seen pics/concepts/etc. for ships larger than 'cruiser' size yet?
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Post by: Compel
Yeah, there's the "Beijing Class Battleship" for the UCM.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 Alpharius wrote:Have we seen pics/concepts/etc. for ships larger than 'cruiser' size yet?
Its been linked a few times in this thread already, a mod not paying attention?
Dreadnoughts keep getting mentioned but there is no information on them at the moment, although the Beijing is apparently the physically largest model that Hawk are, or at least were, planning to make.
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Post by: Alpharius
This Mod thought that was a 'cruiser', so if it isn't, I guess I wasn't paying attention?
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Dreadnaughts will be batlleship-size but differently armed.
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Post by: warboss
In an older interview IIRC on beast of war, they said that Beijing class would be the largest category you see in the game.
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Post by: nedTCM
So how many hull sizes are there going to be then?
Frigate -> Cruiser -> Battleship?
Battleship size fits all battle cruisers, battle ships, and dreadnoughts? Cruisers are light crusiers, cruisers, and carriers? Frigates are strike frigates, missile frigates and standard?
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Post by: Gitzbitah
nedTCM wrote:So how many hull sizes are there going to be then?
Frigate -> Cruiser -> Battleship?
Battleship size fits all battle cruisers, battle ships, and dreadnoughts? Cruisers are light crusiers, cruisers, and carriers? Frigates are strike frigates, missile frigates and standard?
The economy of design in this style is just brilliant. A single kit to make all cruisers was one of the best things about BFGs Imperial and Chaos ships. I don't know how easy these will be to magnetize, but there is just an elegance to having one kit able to construct so many visibly different ships that really appeals to me. That they found a way to do it with the small escorts is great- but extending that up the larger battleships/dreadnoughts battlecruisers is phenomenal.
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Post by: Duskland
I'd love it if they can come up with a combined Battlecruiser/Battleship sprue (not for the kickstarter obviously, but for general release). They could also use some resin add-on components to build dreadnoughts off of the same hull. That would definately be an awesome way for them to spend some of the extra money their taking in. Plastic is just so much easier to work with then the old BFG metal bowling balls (aka battleships).
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Post by: NTRabbit
warboss wrote:In an older interview IIRC on beast of war, they said that Beijing class would be the largest category you see in the game.
If memory serves they said Battleships would be the longest ship class, but there existed the possibility of Dreadnoughts and such being more massive - ie something like two battleship hulls side by side, makes the ship more bulky but the same overall length and height
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Regarding the gameplay video, isn't the game still being playtested? I would assume that the stats being used in that video may not be the ones that make it into the final game.
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Post by: 10penceman
Yeah the stats and rules are still being tested out so the vids are more to give you a feel of the rules than the final version.
There will be dreadnoughts but not sure how big they will be.
As for hull sizes from what I have heard frigates-destroyers-cruisers-battle cruiser-battleship-dreadnought so by my guess 6 size classes or 6 sizes of hull.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Historically dreadnoughts were smaller than battleships (as dreadnoughts were in fact the first battleships and were ultimately replaced by battleships), and gkven the "hard scifi" approach of Hawk I would be surprised if they went this route with DfC.
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Post by: zedmeister
chaos0xomega wrote:Historically dreadnoughts were smaller than battleships (as dreadnoughts were in fact the first battleships and were ultimately replaced by battleships), and gkven the "hard scifi" approach of Hawk I would be surprised if they went this route with DfC.
Dreadnoughts were heavier and usually went all big guns, where as battleships were mixed calibre guns. Looking at the battleship above, it's got a mixture of rail gun sizes. I reckon the dreadnought class will be bigger and will have all the heaviest weapons.
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Post by: Krinsath
chaos0xomega wrote:Historically dreadnoughts were smaller than battleships (as dreadnoughts were in fact the first battleships and were ultimately replaced by battleships), and gkven the "hard scifi" approach of Hawk I would be surprised if they went this route with DfC.
Battleships existed prior to Dreadnought, but the idea of using just big, long-range guns and wide fire arcs of turrets was seen as so revolutionary it made every other battleship obsolete because the way naval battles were to be fought was forever altered based on that and the Japanese victories in the Russo-Japanese War. There was no need to close with the enemy, so secondary armament was not needed which simplified logistics and fire control. Pretty much every major navy agreed and the battleship was scrapped. The era of the Dreadnought (as later "battleships" are really following in that design mold so for the DFC discussion they would be Dreadnoughts and not battleships) lasted for not quite 40 years. Carriers would obviously replace them as the key to naval supremacy during World War 2, and have held that role for twice as long just for context.
So, in a hard sci-fi sense, the battleships should have reasonable speed, a few hefty guns and a good amount of close action weapons. Their design revolves around trading a few shots at range and closing in to bring their close action weapons to bear. The Dreadnoughts would be bigger and have some massive main batteries, but very little close action and need to stand off. They would be roughly the same size relative to each other, as they're not so much different classes as different design philosophies.
The Battleships would be tactically variable, where you could use a variety of commands and avoid the worst spikes while still being effective in combat. Dreadnoughts would need to be Weapons Free for maximum usefulness as they rely on the big guns, which means they would want to be at the limit of range to avoid getting blasted by every enemy ship on the board due to the Major Spike.
That's how I see things playing out given the historical context, and that does sound like a fun and interesting game both in list-building and on the table.
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Post by: RiTides
 NTRabbit wrote: warboss wrote:In an older interview IIRC on beast of war, they said that Beijing class would be the largest category you see in the game.
If memory serves they said Battleships would be the longest ship class, but there existed the possibility of Dreadnoughts and such being more massive - ie something like two battleship hulls side by side, makes the ship more bulky but the same overall length and height
That would be perfect - I don't want super gigantic ships, but just adding to their bulk in a similar board footprint would be fantastic
Our local group is now splitting a Captain AND a Commodore pledge! Really nice that they added that option, and probably good for them too as it gets more people adding all the exclusive battlecruisers which I would think are a good return on investment for Hawk.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'd be more than OK with 'super gigantic ships' making an appearance...
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Post by: RiTides
Well, just from experience seeing some Firestorm Armada ships... I mean, these things can get crazy-town sized. Same for the huge (3 base?) ships in Halo Fleet Battles, or the even bigger ships in Star Wars X-wing. It just seems to me to sacrifice playability a bit... so while it wouldn't hurt, I'd much rather see a bulkier class at a playable size first.
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Post by: warboss
Alpharius wrote:I'd be more than OK with 'super gigantic ships' making an appearance...
Spartan Games is in agreement!
I know the big ship Hawk made was actually in DZC scale and not DFC scale but I say that ship and the Covenant Super Carrier fight it out! Automatically Appended Next Post: RiTides wrote:Well, just from experience seeing some Firestorm Armada ships... I mean, these things can get crazy-town sized. Same for the huge (3 base?) ships in Halo Fleet Battles, or the even bigger ships in Star Wars X-wing. It just seems to me to sacrifice playability a bit... so while it wouldn't hurt, I'd much rather see a bulkier class at a playable size first.
I guess it would depend on the mobility. I haven't seen any demo videos yet with massive ships (likely because they're not out yet... no one taped any Gencon or Salute videos with them). If they just "sit there" like a giant hedgehodge bristling with guns then it might not be very fun. Given what Hawk is doing with DZC and the new bigger special characters (like the very nice Phoenix command gunship flier thing) and that terrain space gun objective model, I'd expect some sort of huge Scourge World Ship or a UCM mobile starport in the future.
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Post by: zedmeister
Just uploaded
£310k - Collectors Edition 2 up KS Exclusive UCMF Atlantis model (256mm length) - More info and visuals to be shown very soon!
Definitely a blah optional extra, nice for the 100% collectors. Pass on that one I think
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm not sure I even now what that is - so...what is it?
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Post by: RiTides
If you meant the stretch goal, it's just a bigger version of the exclusive UCM battlecruiser (a "2-up" meaning it's scaled to twice it's normal size, so actually out of scale with the game).
(if you meant the spoiler'ed pic above, it's a big ship that Spartan had for their booth showing Halo Fleet Battles at GenCon, so not related to this game)
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Post by: Alpharius
I meant the first one - thanks!
While I've got you here...
I've heard some concerns about DZC in that, while the miniatures are great, the gameplay quickly became boring and/or too 'samey'.
Any concerns of that happening here?
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Post by: Compel
Most of the DZC complaints I've heard along those lines were actually dated from the original release of the game where there was only a single choice in each 'slot.' There's far more releases now, with more options to theme your armies in different ways, so I don't think that's too much of a problem anymore.
A 2-up of the Atlantis though? That sounds really frikking awesome and would make one helluva display piece. I could put it alongside my Mass Effect Normandy's
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Compel wrote:Most of the DZC complaints I've heard along those lines were actually dated from the original release of the game where there was only a single choice in each 'slot.' There's far more releases now, with more options to theme your armies in different ways, so I don't think that's too much of a problem anymore.
A 2-up of the Atlantis though? That sounds really frikking awesome and would make one helluva display piece. I could put it alongside my Mass Effect Normandy's
Not to mention that they are still making new units.
The game is pretty much a work in progress.
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Post by: Thokt
Alpharius wrote:I meant the first one - thanks!
While I've got you here...
I've heard some concerns about DZC in that, while the miniatures are great, the gameplay quickly became boring and/or too 'samey'.
Any concerns of that happening here?
I don't play nearly as much as I'd like, I've played about a dozen matches or so. The variety of tactical options and objective types (standard, possible, intel, focal points), as well as the means to destroy objectives because they're in a building, makes every match feel different to me. Add to that each races functions very differently than the next, and the variety only grows stronger. Sure, almost every match takes place in an urban environment, but I don't really see that as any sort of shortcoming for the game.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
And mostly urban enviroment because that´s easier to print and play. There are quite some pics of interesting tables out there that are not citiyscapes.
>>>I'd be more than OK with 'super gigantic ships' making an appearance... <<<
Playbility-wise they can be a pain in the neck, as many FSA-players can attest to.
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Post by: daemonish
I am so tempted by this kickstarter, but until those fully painted PHR ship photos come up I am going to keep my money in my pocket.
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Post by: RiTides
The PHR ships will probably just be shown as renders during the campaign - but hopefully we will see the full starter set of them this week
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Krinsath wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Historically dreadnoughts were smaller than battleships (as dreadnoughts were in fact the first battleships and were ultimately replaced by battleships), and gkven the "hard scifi" approach of Hawk I would be surprised if they went this route with DfC.
Battleships existed prior to Dreadnought, but the idea of using just big, long-range guns and wide fire arcs of turrets was seen as so revolutionary it made every other battleship obsolete because the way naval battles were to be fought was forever altered based on that and the Japanese victories in the Russo-Japanese War. There was no need to close with the enemy, so secondary armament was not needed which simplified logistics and fire control. Pretty much every major navy agreed and the battleship was scrapped. The era of the Dreadnought (as later "battleships" are really following in that design mold so for the DFC discussion they would be Dreadnoughts and not battleships) lasted for not quite 40 years. Carriers would obviously replace them as the key to naval supremacy during World War 2, and have held that role for twice as long just for context.
So, in a hard sci-fi sense, the battleships should have reasonable speed, a few hefty guns and a good amount of close action weapons. Their design revolves around trading a few shots at range and closing in to bring their close action weapons to bear. The Dreadnoughts would be bigger and have some massive main batteries, but very little close action and need to stand off. They would be roughly the same size relative to each other, as they're not so much different classes as different design philosophies.
The Battleships would be tactically variable, where you could use a variety of commands and avoid the worst spikes while still being effective in combat. Dreadnoughts would need to be Weapons Free for maximum usefulness as they rely on the big guns, which means they would want to be at the limit of range to avoid getting blasted by every enemy ship on the board due to the Major Spike.
That's how I see things playing out given the historical context, and that does sound like a fun and interesting game both in list-building and on the table.
It might be semantics, but the term "battleship" was not widely used prior to the launch of HMS Dresdnought. To my knowledge the Royal Navy was the only entity to formally adopt that terminology, and only did so about a decade prior to HMS Dreadnought. Those early "battleships" would later be knwen as pre-Dreadnoughts. Ten years after Dreadnoughts launch, "Dreadnoughts" had already been rendered obsolete by Super-dreadnoughts armed with more powerful guns positioned in a centerline configuration, as well as a revised armor scheme. This new design paradigm proved itself inadequate over the course of WW1, particularly at the Battle of Jutland, and post war naval shipbuilding as a result went in a new direction which resulted in even larger vessels. This coincided with the term dreadnought and superdreadnought falling out of popular use, and the vessels bult from 1919-1922 were more commonly referred to as battleships. This new terminology was formalized by the adoption of the Washington Naval Treaty which placed limitations on ship sizes and armaments, vessels which complied (kinda) with these limitations were referred to as "treaty battleships". The resulting vessels were larger, better armed and heavier than any of the dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts built prior to the end of WW1, and were for the most part roughly on par with the (battle)ships built post war (which technically violated the treaty, but as we all know, nobody really followed it anyway, and in q couple notable instances, were far larger).
TL;DR - Dreadnoughts were smaller than Superdreadnoughts. Both terms fell out of popular use around the time of WW1, after which even larger ships were built which were commonly referred to as battleships.
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Post by: Krinsath
chaos0xomega wrote:
It might be semantics, but the term "battleship" was not widely used prior to the launch of HMS Dresdnought. To my knowledge the Royal Navy was the only entity to formally adopt that terminology, and only did so about a decade prior to HMS Dreadnought. Those early "battleships" would later be knwen as pre-Dreadnoughts. Ten years after Dreadnoughts launch, "Dreadnoughts" had already been rendered obsolete by Super-dreadnoughts armed with more powerful guns positioned in a centerline configuration, as well as a revised armor scheme. This new design paradigm proved itself inadequate over the course of WW1, particularly at the Battle of Jutland, and post war naval shipbuilding as a result went in a new direction which resulted in even larger vessels. This coincided with the term dreadnought and superdreadnought falling out of popular use, and the vessels bult from 1919-1922 were more commonly referred to as battleships. This new terminology was formalized by the adoption of the Washington Naval Treaty which placed limitations on ship sizes and armaments, vessels which complied (kinda) with these limitations were referred to as "treaty battleships". The resulting vessels were larger, better armed and heavier than any of the dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts built prior to the end of WW1, and were for the most part roughly on par with the (battle)ships built post war (which technically violated the treaty, but as we all know, nobody really followed it anyway, and in q couple notable instances, were far larger).
TL;DR - Dreadnoughts were smaller than Superdreadnoughts. Both terms fell out of popular use around the time of WW1, after which even larger ships were built which were commonly referred to as battleships.
Depends on your definition of "widely"; as a formal class designation? Battleship was indeed not used until the late 1880s in reference to ironclad warships. In general understanding it was short-hand for Ships-of-the-Line which were the ancestors of the ships first called battleships.
It basically boils down to which era of history are they moving forward as the basis of the core gameplay? If they are taking nods from BFG, which had Age of Sail tactics as a basis then it would make more sense for the two classes to be laid out as those two different design philosophies of mixed vs. mainly-single type armament. If they're pulling from more modern naval tactics, then another way of distinguishing the classes would be that one is primarily anti-ship (Battleships) and the other is planetary bombardment (as the super-Dreadnoughts of the real world found themselves mainly doing after being replaced by carriers).
One reason BFG "regressed" tactics back towards the gun-line of older naval battles was that in terrestrial combat aircraft and missiles enjoy many advantages in combat against ships, thus things carrying aircraft and missiles are pre-eminent. In space however, most of the physics that give aircraft those massive advantages aren't a factor and thus the big gunships can compete on more even terms. Given the mind behind DFC's ruleset is the same one, it will be most interesting to see which way they decide to take things.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Can I just settle this tangent right now, please? A Dreadnought is a spaceship with three nacelles. There, it's settled.
Have we seen any PHR frigates yet?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Can I just settle this tangent right now, please? A Dreadnought is a spaceship with three nacelles. There, it's settled.
Have we seen any PHR frigates yet?
We've seen one, but that's it so far.
I really hope they make race specific fighters and bombers. I don't like how its all the same at the moment.
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Post by: zedmeister
Looks like the 2-up model has been changed to the Beijing class Battleship:
Irritating they do that and don't offer the standard model. It wouldn't be so bad if they stuck to the Atlantis...
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Post by: FeindusMaximus
4 only 40lbs  and at 11inched long I doubt you can use it in a game. More like a display model.
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Post by: Mymearan
It's double size from the one in the game so yeah it's only a display model.
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Post by: prankster
I'm sure there'll be a way to include it in friendly games. Fairly easy to come up with a 'protect the mega-super-dreadnought' kind of scenario.
I think I prefer it as a 2up Beijing rather than a 2up Atlantis. They're both nice ships, but the Beijing just looks more threatening imho. Not sure I'd pay for either one, but at the moment that's not a concern, it only becomes an issue if I drop to multiple commadore pledges.
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Post by: nekooni
prankster wrote:I'm sure there'll be a way to include it in friendly games. Fairly easy to come up with a 'protect the mega-super-dreadnought' kind of scenario.
I think I prefer it as a 2up Beijing rather than a 2up Atlantis. They're both nice ships, but the Beijing just looks more threatening imho. Not sure I'd pay for either one, but at the moment that's not a concern, it only becomes an issue if I drop to multiple commadore pledges.
Ranges are measured from the base stem, NOT the model (models are already scaled up WAY out of proportion, the actual size would be like a needlepoint) . The model really is only there to look pretty, so a 2up Bejing will play just like a normal Bejing. It's just a bit more unwieldy on the table.
on the DN / BS stuff: I'm gonna guess that there will be 4 main classes - corvettes, frigates, cruisers and battleships - since all of those have been named and there's apparently nothing larger than battleships. Since all we know is that frigates have multiple roles / types and the same is true for cruisers (light, heavy, battle), i'd assume you get the same for corvettes (flak? missile? gunship?) and battleships (carrier? standard? dreadnought?) with dreadnoughts sacrificing point defense for more, larger main batteries.
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Post by: zedmeister
Orbital assets incoming!
Early concept for the next unlock...
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Post by: judgedoug
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Compel wrote:Most of the DZC complaints I've heard along those lines were actually dated from the original release of the game where there was only a single choice in each 'slot.' There's far more releases now, with more options to theme your armies in different ways, so I don't think that's too much of a problem anymore.
A 2-up of the Atlantis though? That sounds really frikking awesome and would make one helluva display piece. I could put it alongside my Mass Effect Normandy's
Not to mention that they are still making new units.
The game is pretty much a work in progress.
It's also surprising how a well designed ruleset can take units that are effectively the same and still introduce a wide variety of tactical options and interesting gameplay. In historical rulesets, humans are humans. It's up to a well designed ruleset, like Bolt Action, where everyone's "soldier with a rifle" plays differently - and of course, it's up to the individual player to have their own playstyle as well.
But yeah, as you pointed out, the number of different types of units have like tripled since DZC first was released.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 Mymearan wrote:It's double size from the one in the game so yeah it's only a display model.
IIRC there was an up scaled Beijing display model at the last hawk openday/thing that was around a foot long (it was basically the width of a medium display cabinet).
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Post by: RiTides
Yes! Very stoked for these
Have to figure out if I'll be adding anything on... debating between just using the token ordnance in the box, or upgrading the ordnance. I have a feeling the add-on prices aren't going to be much of a savings in this campaign, and I have two FLGS that carry their range so I could pick up the additional items later. So, leaning that way, but really glad to see more things revealed regardless
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Post by: Salacious Greed
So, what's the real chance this makes £500k ($750k)? I'm not being Debbie downer here, but asking for real guesstimates, as Hawk doesn't seem to be the type to throw free stuff to overcome the mid-KS doldrums. I think that either Captain or Commodore is a good pledge with the £500k unlock, but a little thin before.
Also, does it look like the PHR has mostly broadside weaponry? I really like the overall design of the PHR, but not sure I want a heavy broadside fleet, unless they are super manueverable. **I know nothing about the PHR in DZC, so please give conjecture**
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I'd say pretty good unless something causes the campaign to backslide. Kickstarter funds tend to have a U shape, looking at pledges per day, unless they are frontloaded by a lot of hype or a lack of tipping point value in the final days. There might have been some frontloading here, but the unlocks timed for the end should create some momentum and convince a lot of the fence sitters to jump in. Once the total looks close to $500k, or even if the per hour total increases fast enough to look like it will make it, there should be a huge swell of backers like yourself who see the value as finally being worth it.
But then again I thought MEdge would make a million dollars, so I really shouldn't talk.
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Post by: RiTides
Salacious - I'm certain this will hit 500K. They have the pedigree, the name (Hawk + Chambers), and a ton of exclusive ships they're revealing right at the end. Pledging now does help it get there, of course
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Post by: Lobokai
Do we know that there's launch assets counters in the starter or is that speculation?
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Post by: chaos0xomega
500k gbp is all but guaranteed I think. Beyond that? Well... itll be interesting. Currently the KS isnt really offering a lot of value, whether or not that changes with more stretch goals is a bit questionable, as Hawk doesnt really seem to have any idea what theyre doing IMO. They said hey studied successful past Kickstarters, but from my own research and KS studies they seem to not be doing any of the things those campaigns have done.
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Post by: rabidaskal
Well, another way of looking at it is that if Hawk have managed to raise 500k gbp without offering 'value' to the backers, then they're doing extremely well! : D
Personally, I'm glad that they're not doing the classic buy more! mind games perfected by Mantic and Cmon. It was fun atfirst but I'm pretty burned out with the whole roller-coaster KS thing. You're probably right that they could raise more money via aggressive addons and whatnot, but at theend of the day Id trade all that to get the product with a slight discount and within a reasonable timeframe. Instead of a wave 2 three years down the road. Ymmv of course
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I'd love to see them leverage their existing intangibles to increase the value, like giving every backer a pdf of the DZC rule book, or even just an art book collecting their design sketches. Maybe they can add some sort of fun scenarios for including DZC inside a DFC game, such as a Seize the Defense Guns mission that affects a game of DFC or vice versa.
And a novel.
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Post by: RiTides
I think the value is pretty insane at 500k, though. We're splitting it 4 ways (two pledges now!) and each getting a ton of free ships for our faction. Mostly frigates, but since those will be hardest to magnetize it's nice to have spares!
I love Hawk's measured pace so far and am very happy with their updates. I wasn't even planning on getting in at first, but I was quickly won over along with my local gaming group (and apparently the groups at the two nearby stores are doing similarly).
The best part for FLGS is that Hawk is really serious about getting the game out into distribution, like DzC, so it's not "now or never". Folks can pick up the game pretty easily who miss it here, which in the end is better for everyone and the life of the game.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
RITides, what pledge levels are you splitting? I ask, because the value T the high ranking pledge levels seems much higher than at the commander level, which is probably the level noobs and undecideds are most likely looking at. I'm very excited about this product, but I can't afford to go any higher, unless they let us upgrade during a long pledge manager phase. So commander seems to me like the pledge level where the value looks least enticing compared to retail, but it's also the level that needs to attract the most casual fans.
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Post by: RiTides
We're splitting a Captain and Commodore - originally it was just Captain, but we realized with all guys were adding on we could do both for the same cost as one with addons, but get double stretch goals!
Only works if you've got 2 - 4 people to go in together on a pledge, but with the way they're distributing stretch goals to each race, it seems made for this
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Post by: nekooni
I'm fine with them not drowning us in free gak. Yes, I'll get a fuckton of freebies with my TGG2 pledge, but I could've done without most of those. I'm picking it up for a 40k Sisters of Battle army, so anything outside of that is wasted on me. And you guys shouldn't forget that all extras kinda increase the base price. If you plan on offering a ton of free extras, you'll calculate that in when you think about how much you ask for in the first place.
It's just like "free shipping" when you buy stuff online. You still pay the shipping indirectly, it's included in the products price.
I'd love it if I could swap in the extra sprues for UCM sprues or "pledge credit" or just some other bolt-on.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I'd love to see them leverage their existing intangibles to increase the value, like giving every backer a pdf of the DZC rule book, or even just an art book collecting their design sketches. Maybe they can add some sort of fun scenarios for including DZC inside a DFC game, such as a Seize the Defense Guns mission that affects a game of DFC or vice versa.
And a novel.
I think Simon mentioned in one of the BoW clips.that they're gonna provide that kind of scenario in the rulebook already.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Personally, I'm glad that they're not doing the classic buy more! mind games perfected by Mantic and Cmon. It was fun atfirst but I'm pretty burned out with the whole roller-coaster KS thing. You're probably right that they could raise more money via aggressive addons and whatnot, but at theend of the day Id trade all that to get the product with a slight discount and within a reasonable timeframe. Instead of a wave 2 three years down the road.
The best part for FLGS is that Hawk is really serious about getting the game out into distribution, like DzC, so it's not "now or never". Folks can pick up the game pretty easily who miss it here, which in the end is better for everyone and the life of the game.
Amen.
It seems quite some KS are going down the reasonable route this day.
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Post by: overtyrant
I'm afraid companies like Mantic and CMON (amongst others) have set a trend of throwing loads of free gak at us that the mindset of KS campaigns is now 'where and how much free gak am I getting', and not 'help us fund this project'. If you want the project to succeed and like the product then you will back it no matter if there is free stuff or not as you want the product/project to succeed.
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Post by: RiTides
But the deal here is still very good (Great at 500k!). Doesn't have to be either/or . Let's not get too far afield - Hawk should be putting out an update soon right? I'm really curious to know more about the orbital assets!
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Post by: Thimn
It must be an exciting time over at the Hawk office. DZC has been steadily gaining ground in my area, and the amount of people locally getting in on Drop Fleet should make them proud of their products they are offering.
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Post by: Fireball
I could not resist any longer ... love the UCM ships ... Commodore it is ...
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Post by: judgedoug
I literally cannot believe people are complaining about "value".
This Kickstarter was a good value from day 1, with no stretch goals unlocked (or even known), due to the insanely amazing sculpts and the promise of an Andy Chambers ruleset.
Any free stuff is just icing on the cake.
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Post by: Hulksmash
judgedoug wrote:I literally cannot believe people are complaining about "value".
This Kickstarter was a good value from day 1, with no stretch goals unlocked (or even known), due to the insanely amazing sculpts and the promise of an Andy Chambers ruleset.
Any free stuff is just icing on the cake.
It cost more than it was going to cost most of us Retail on day 1. Be realistic. I'm one that will not give money in advance for something I can get cheaper when it comes out (and this is coming out even if this KS failed). But like I said, once they hit 500k I'm probably in for Commodore (was captain but they put this one up and it's better for me). But please don't pretend that this was an amazing value on day one.
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Post by: zedmeister
Space Stations!
Update #10 - Plastic Modular Space Station Scenery Pack
We’ve hit £325K, and with this stretch goal achieved we can now unlock plastic space station kits! This kit was a long term plan that we were originally hoping to bring to players in 2017. With the success of the campaign so far, we are able to offer this scenery pack as a bolt-on. The pack was always planned to be five things: a fun part of gameplay, affordable for players, highly detailed, easy to build and modular. Injection moulded plastic allows us to achieve all this, thanks to this Kickstarter.
There will be four large sprues in the pack, featuring a wide variety of parts to create 3 large and 4 small space stations in many hundreds of combinations. These parts can be assembled in a huge variety of shapes, allowing players to make any size of space station they like, from a single massive dock to several small outposts. Because of their modular nature, multiple kits can also be combined to the point where players can make huge orbital complexes! Included in the pack are 3 large and 4 small bases. The total cost of a pack to Kickstarter backers will be £30.
The designs of the parts are currently being finalised, with a range of concept art ready to showcase. Because this scenery pack was not originally planned for the Kickstarter, we are still in the development stage. As Dave is currently completing the PHR, it is very unlikely that we will have renders by the end of the campaign. Seeing how well the campaign was going, we accelerated our timings, and Patrice is now working flat out on concepts in conjunction with Dave to narrow down the look and feel of the final result.
Early Concept work for possible Space Station variants
The final models will vary from the concepts shown. So why are we unlocking this as a stretch goal on Kickstarter, when we won’t have renders? We wanted to offer Kickstarter backers the opportunity to access the scenery pack early as due to the support the campaign has had so far we are now able to make space stations in plastic! As timely delivery is very important to us, we'd like to mention that we do not anticipate that adding this exciting new pack will affect the delivery time.
Refined concept work for Space Station Modules
Rules and scenarios for Space Stations will feature in the Rulebook, similar to the scenery packs from Dropzone Commander. These are designed to be fun expansions to the game, but larger stations could also be used in place of clusters in the main game, allowing players to land troops on them and fight for supremacy! We’re really looking forward to using them in-game, and hope to have renders completed in late December/early January at the latest.
More Module concepts for Space Station pack
Tomorrow we will have more PHR renders to share with you, and painted Shaltari miniatures should be on show towards the end of the week.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
HELLS TO THE YES.
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Post by: zedmeister
They looking flippin' fantastic. So happy they're doing these in plastic.
I was hoping that we'd one day see hawk being able to produce their modular building kits in plastic. These things:
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Post by: judgedoug
Hulksmash wrote: judgedoug wrote:I literally cannot believe people are complaining about "value".
This Kickstarter was a good value from day 1, with no stretch goals unlocked (or even known), due to the insanely amazing sculpts and the promise of an Andy Chambers ruleset.
Any free stuff is just icing on the cake.
It cost more than it was going to cost most of us Retail on day 1. Be realistic. I'm one that will not give money in advance for something I can get cheaper when it comes out (and this is coming out even if this KS failed). But like I said, once they hit 500k I'm probably in for Commodore (was captain but they put this one up and it's better for me). But please don't pretend that this was an amazing value on day one.
It certainly was. At ~$168 for captain pledge, or roughly $84 per starter set with a free large resin exclusive battleship, it was certainly worth it, as that is certainly less than retail. It's the entire reason my buddy and myself split a captain pledge when it launched because we both believed it was worth the price.
At this point in time there's been so much free gak added, that I'm worried about Hawk getting bogged down by delays ala CMON or multiple rushed wave shipments ala Mantic (with the quality to boot).
And obviously now we are getting space stations with only rough concept art, and no renders. Can't wait for the cries of 'bait and switch" when the final model is produced, after the kickstarter has ended.
But no, please, throw in more "free" stuff that will most likely reduce the overall quality of all the other components due a finite amount of skilled labor and time that must now be spread across designing and producing more and more individual "free" items!
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Post by: Mymearan
Jesus Christ they just go from one punch to the wallet to the next... At this point I'm in for at least one Captain or Commodore, one missile add on and one space station add on...
They confirmed we can upgrade in the PM, right? Even from £1?
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Post by: Hulksmash
judgedoug wrote: Hulksmash wrote: judgedoug wrote:I literally cannot believe people are complaining about "value".
This Kickstarter was a good value from day 1, with no stretch goals unlocked (or even known), due to the insanely amazing sculpts and the promise of an Andy Chambers ruleset.
Any free stuff is just icing on the cake.
It cost more than it was going to cost most of us Retail on day 1. Be realistic. I'm one that will not give money in advance for something I can get cheaper when it comes out (and this is coming out even if this KS failed). But like I said, once they hit 500k I'm probably in for Commodore (was captain but they put this one up and it's better for me). But please don't pretend that this was an amazing value on day one.
It certainly was. At ~$168 for captain pledge, or roughly $84 per starter set with a free large resin exclusive battleship, it was certainly worth it, as that is certainly less than retail. It's the entire reason my buddy and myself split a captain pledge when it launched because we both believed it was worth the price.
At this point in time there's been so much free gak added, that I'm worried about Hawk getting bogged down by delays ala CMON or multiple rushed wave shipments ala Mantic (with the quality to boot).
And obviously now we are getting space stations with only rough concept art, and no renders. Can't wait for the cries of 'bait and switch" when the final model is produced, after the kickstarter has ended.
But no, please, throw in more "free" stuff that will most likely reduce the overall quality of all the other components due a finite amount of skilled labor and time that must now be spread across designing and producing more and more individual "free" items!
$84US is more than I would pay retail. If they are priced similar to Dropzone (likely) that's $8 more than MM. Where I don't pay shipping either. So once you add those two up and shipping you get the cost of the Battlecruiser. So it was basically retail day 1 for me (and most of the US) to hand them money 8 months out without slippage.
I'll also point out that the only free stuff added was more print runs of stuff they were making (cruisers and frigates). No additional resources for "free gak" would be needed. Everything else has been a paid bolt-ons. Now the paid bolt-ons might slow them down but don't act like it's the "free gak" as you put it that will. But by all means. Tell us how wanting a reasonable deal off what we could buy it for when it comes out makes us bad people
On a happier note Plastic Space Stations are cool and I would grab some of those for Armada even if I didn't plan on grabbing this at 500k.
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Post by: Malika2
Man, they've already set the bar pretty high with their 10mm scale terrain, now they'll be doing the same with space terrain!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
judgedoug wrote:I literally cannot believe people are complaining about "value".
This Kickstarter was a good value from day 1, with no stretch goals unlocked (or even known), due to the insanely amazing sculpts and the promise of an Andy Chambers ruleset.
Any free stuff is just icing on the cake.
It sounds like it's not value in general that's the issue. It's value compared to the wait. People don't want to pay more now than they would through a discounted retail store a year from now for the same minis. A sprue or two apparently doesn't tip the scales towards "pay now", but the frigate bonanza does. Since the project is funded, prospective pledgers can freely wait for retail if the 'pre-order' bonus isn't attractive enough.
For the record, I've been in the whole time because I see the value and want to show the company my support from the start. This is no kickstarter for back-alley haggling for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am talking about the commander pledge, of course. Not sure why everyone just assumes Captain or higher are the default pledge levels for most backers. Seems a bit unreasonable.
I hope the stations are on the pledge manager...
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Post by: Krinsath
Has anything been said in terms of changing your pledge level in the pledge manager? I would love to go for Commodore, but that could be a bit of a financial pinch just before the holidays. Nothing that couldn't be managed, just something I'd like to avoid if there's the option to do so.
Probably end up just doing it regardless, but it couldn't hurt to know what options there are.
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Post by: Killionaire
Let's talk 'Value'.
I bought 3 kickstarters: Sedition Wars, Robotech, and Relic Knights.
Each of these gave me something like 75% off 'MSRP'.
Let's see how much 'value' I got out of those:
Sedition Wars, a mostly unplayable game with some OK minis, mostly terribly flawed ones. Box game currently selling for 20 dollars in many online stores. VALUE: About 20% of what I expected. Late 1 year.
Robotech, a horribly bad ruleset with finicky, relatively meh models with middling quality, with 70% of the miniatures as of yet undelivered some 3+ years after. I sold nearly all of it for 25 dollars at a swap meet. VALUE: Less than 10% of what I expected. Late 3+ years and counting.
Relic Knights, a nice little game plagued by dramatic flaws in the game rules. Some models are good, others are literally garbage and had to be thrown out. Value: About 40% of what I expected. Late by 1 year.
---
Those are the 'values' I got from previous kickstarters. Given that I have actually full faith in what Hawk is delivering based on both their track record and use of technology and manufacturing that they've already succeeded in, plus solid rules writing credibility... I'm going to get a hell of a lot more value out of this kickstarter than my previous ones.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Wrath of Kings was around 60% MSRP in the basic pledge level and is an amazing game.
For every Sedition Wars/Robotech/Relic Knights there is a Wrath of Kings/Dream Forge/Kingdom Death.
Bobtheinquisitor hit the nail on the head. It's time vs. value of my dollar. I don't give away money for free. I need a return on any investment. In this case additional models for my money or a total purchase value approaching an additional 10% or so off what I could get it for at retail. 500k gets me there.
I understand people see value in this differently. And I'm cool with it. They just don't have to pretend that people who see it differently are the devil or are unreasonable
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Post by: RiTides
All reasonable points, let's leave the general Kickstarter discussion there (or transfer to a general thread in Dakka Discussions / etc) and go back to discussing Dropfleet, please
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Post by: Salacious Greed
Hulksmash wrote:Wrath of Kings was around 60% MSRP in the basic pledge level and is an amazing game.
For every Sedition Wars/Robotech/Relic Knights there is a Wrath of Kings/Dream Forge/Kingdom Death.
Bobtheinquisitor hit the nail on the head. It's time vs. value of my dollar. I don't give away money for free. I need a return on any investment. In this case additional models for my money or a total purchase value approaching an additional 10% or so off what I could get it for at retail. 500k gets me there.
I understand people see value in this differently. And I'm cool with it. They just don't have to pretend that people who see it differently are the devil or are unreasonable
I agree, I've backed some that have tanked, but gotten complete value and a good deal out of others. I just don't feel the same way as everyone white knighting this as "pledging to get it made", when all KS is really doing is removing RISK from the production of the game for the company. ** I am more than happy to debate KS in another forum, someone make a thread there, as I don't see any. I am interested in actual intellectual debate, not frothing views. **
For my money, I'd like value beyond them throwing a couple 10 cent sprues in return for me paying retail, or paying above retail minus discount. I look forward to and hope it is a great Andy Chambers ruleset, but the value is in the models, which are horribly overpriced in this KS.
*** Sorry Ritides, posted before yours hit right before mine. Not trying to derail, I happily look forward to someone wanting to debate KS, even specifically this one, in Dakka Discussions.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
There is even a Kickstarter Overload? thread in Dakka Discussions...
If anyone here has read the Reconquest book, please tell me if it advances the story or fills in some of the mysteries. Do we learn anything about the White Sphere or PHR, the origin of the Scourge, or the Shaltari? Is the UCM invasion succeeding?
Will we likely see any more background advancement for DFC, or will it just be filling in the details on the spaceship side of things?
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Post by: judgedoug
Hulksmash wrote:For every Sedition Wars/Robotech/Relic Knights there is a Wrath of Kings/Dream Forge/Kingdom Death.
Which again, Dream Forge and Kingdom Death were how late?
I'm always concerned that a successful kickstarter is annihilated by overpromising and therefore needing multiple waves and taking years to complete.
I want Hawk to remain within their timeframe. Overpromising on new units, as I mentioned, takes a finite value (X sculptor/artist, talent) and divides it by Y (number of promised new units). So either our delivery time increases or our quality decreases. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Salacious Greed wrote:For my money, I'd like value beyond them throwing a couple 10 cent sprues in return for me paying retail, or paying above retail minus discount. I look forward to and hope it is a great Andy Chambers ruleset, but the value is in the models, which are horribly overpriced in this KS.
I can't even begin to imagine a world where a giant pile of highly detailed 2.5 inch, 4 inch, and 6 inch multipart highly customizable models at a few dollars apiece are "horribly overpriced", especially considering we've gone well past the tipping point where the captain and above pledges are now getting piles and piles of "free" sprues.
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Post by: RiTides
Okay, that really is enough!
As Bob mentioned, please take further discussion comparing various Kickstarters to this thread in Dakka Discussions:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646691.page
The current thread is for discussion of the Dropfleet Kickstarter, and it's not fair to saddle it with all these external debates from other campaigns. So, please take it to that thread for further discussion along those lines...
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Post by: Killionaire
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If anyone here has read the Reconquest book, please tell me if it advances the story or fills in some of the mysteries. Do we learn anything about the White Sphere or PHR, the origin of the Scourge, or the Shaltari? Is the UCM invasion succeeding?
Will we likely see any more background advancement for DFC, or will it just be filling in the details on the spaceship side of things?
It seems the story is as such:
Main Rulebook: Prior history, calling out factions, everything until the moment the UCM invasion starts.
Reconquest Phase 1: The invasion up to about 10 months in. It describes all of the planets and moons that the UCM is attempting to get. It introduces recurring characters, and the resistance.
No deeper info yet on the Scourge or Shaltari. Minor PHR characterization as it indicates they're playing some other game as to the UCM, and has one of their characters plotting.
Not really a huge advance, more of the second half of setup. We'll see if their new book pushes story sometime next year.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
BobtheInquisitor wrote:There is even a Kickstarter Overload? thread in Dakka Discussions...
If anyone here has read the Reconquest book, please tell me if it advances the story or fills in some of the mysteries. Do we learn anything about the White Sphere or PHR, the origin of the Scourge, or the Shaltari? Is the UCM invasion succeeding?
Will we likely see any more background advancement for DFC, or will it just be filling in the details on the spaceship side of things?
Kind of sort of.
You don't learn that much more about the PHR or the Shaltari, but it does give a lot of detail about what happened after the scourge invasions, and the UCM attempts to reclaim lost planets.
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Post by: RiTides
Killionaire, when you say "invasion" you mean the UCM's invasion of Scourge held worlds (aka the reconquest) right? Do you know how many years after the Scourge took over this all takes place? I've only read bits and pieces but it sounded like Resistance cells couldn't get very active until something like a hundred years had passed and the Scourge hosts became more deteriorated as the Scourge parasites themselves died.
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Post by: solkan
RiTides wrote:Killionaire, when you say "invasion" you mean the UCM's invasion of Scourge held worlds (aka the reconquest) right? Do you know how many years after the Scourge took over this all takes place? I've only read bits and pieces but it sounded like Resistance cells couldn't get very active until something like a hundred years had passed and the Scourge hosts became more deteriorated as the Scourge parasites themselves died.
One of the dates in Reconquest: Phase I is "In the year 2664, almost 160 years after the Scourge invasion" when talking about the UCM scouts arriving on Eden; and then the actual UCM invasion in summer 2665.
It varied by planet, but it wasn't so much that the resistance cells couldn't get very active but that they were basically at a stalemate--if they stayed out of the Scourge's way, and kept their heads down, they weren't really worth doing anything about. Bad host material and all. So it was sort of like the Scourge treating the humans like an inconvenient feral population.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
RiTides wrote:Killionaire, when you say "invasion" you mean the UCM's invasion of Scourge held worlds (aka the reconquest) right? Do you know how many years after the Scourge took over this all takes place? I've only read bits and pieces but it sounded like Resistance cells couldn't get very active until something like a hundred years had passed and the Scourge hosts became more deteriorated as the Scourge parasites themselves died.
The Scourge overran humanity 200 years ago, iirc. Ninja'd by Solkan. Speaking of the Resistance, are their Technicals really that derpy looking? The gunners always seemed out of proportion to me.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Phase 1 mainly focuses on the Resistance and the first wave of the reconquest, there is little more about the other races.
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Post by: Pael
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Speaking of the Resistance, are their Technicals really that derpy looking? The gunners always seemed out of proportion to me.
I got the buses and they have the gunners on top, and they don't look too bad. When I first bought in I thought the infantry bases were going to be bad but after painting they look great.
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Post by: Killionaire
I thought the Technical Gunners looked out of place too... until I saw actual pictures of guys riding on the back of trucks with machine guns. A standing person on the bed of a small truck is pretty crazy tall.
Most of those technicals are also not even pickup trucks, but stuff like sedan cars with the back removed, or El Camino-type cars.
They do paint up great.
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Post by: RiTides
I think the infantry sculpts are definitely the weakest - I just snagged some Resistance but am not getting the Technicals. If I do eventually, I'll swap out the gunners for unmanned guns. I think he may sculpt the infantry by hand (and the rest in CAD) and they just aren't as good, imo...
Those gun wagons, on the other hand, just rock!! And your normal infantry are so small that you can't really make out anything on them regardless, let alone paint detail that small.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
New infantry units are CAD, Only in the beginning they were hand-sculpted.
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Post by: Killionaire
I dunno, the Infantry can get pretty crazy detailed due to CAD...
With this design methodology, I have little fear as far as capturing detail in material is concerned. The Medusas for example, have about 400 tiny eyes on their drones.
Sorry for the slight off-topic as to not being directly dropfleet. But generally, the Resistance and onwards quality has been stellar.
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Post by: RiTides
Nice pics, Killionaire! But I still don't think the sculpting on those gunners comes close to that of the vehicles they're riding on =/. Still love the Resistance look, just won't be using the gunners. And it's not off-topic, this thread is for Dropzone and Dropfleet discussion (although obviously Dropfleet is the hot topic at the moment with the Kickstarter running!).
---
Mod note: Regarding the general Kickstarter comparison discussion from earlier in this thread, there is now a more targeted thread in Dakka Discussions for this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/670119.page
So, please direct all general Kickstarter discussion over there - thanks!
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Not sure if its been posted yet, but they released some more PHR renders    Seems that they are giving the PHR fleet a Greek mythology naming convention, like their ground forces.
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Post by: RiTides
That looks brilliant and what's more, the easiest to magnetize with the broadside and prow weapons clearly dropping into place similar to BFG ships. Very cool!
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Post by: Hulksmash
Not sure how I feel about the underbite yet. But I love the rest of it.
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Post by: Gitzbitah
Those look suspiciously, and gloriously, like the Imperial cruisers from BFG. Different broadside armament, limited or nonexistent forward armament, and extremely thick armor.
edit- Thank you Hulksmash! I hadn't identified it, but that underbite is definitely one of my visual triggers. Orks and most of my adopted dogs have had it
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Post by: Mymearan
God damn it I want so much PHR. So much. Greek names make me want them even more. PERSEUS ATTACK!!!!!!
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Post by: Killionaire
Given that these guys'll be HIPS-type plastic, you'll have no issue removing the underbite or placing it back if you need to.
I suspect UCM cruisers will be fairly easy to magentize too: As it is, it's obviously sets of modular points.
'Head':
Smooth
2-Turret slot (laser takes 2, heavy turrets take 1 each)
'Tail'
Smooth
Wing-Slots (triple-mount turrets or flight bays)
'Jaw'
Two-turrets (laser, turrets, flight bay or bombing cannon, or jaw extension for battlecruiser).
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Post by: chaos0xomega
 rabidaskal wrote:Well, another way of looking at it is that if Hawk have managed to raise 500k gbp without offering 'value' to the backers, then they're doing extremely well! : D
Personally, I'm glad that they're not doing the classic buy more! mind games perfected by Mantic and Cmon. It was fun atfirst but I'm pretty burned out with the whole roller-coaster KS thing. You're probably right that they could raise more money via aggressive addons and whatnot, but at theend of the day Id trade all that to get the product with a slight discount and within a reasonable timeframe. Instead of a wave 2 three years down the road. Ymmv of course
Its hard to say this KS offers value or not without knowing MSRP, but if the prices for the starter and rulebook are the same as DzC, then pledging to the KS is actually more expensive than buying at retail (for US backers anyway). As an admiral level backer its actually hard to say that Id be getting my moneys worth atm, particularly since Im only interest in UCM and PHR, and the paper mats are IMO overpriced.
Someone actually calculated out some estimated saving, the commodore plesge is apparrently your best ROI, Admiral is currently one of the worst, only behind LT level IIRC.
Also to jdugedoug - Andy Chambers is overrated. The sculpts are amazing, for sure, the overall concept of play is amazing, but IMO Andy struggles with the nitty gritty of mechanics and details, i.e. hes a big picture guy.
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Post by: RiTides
That could work well, though - it does seem like he has laid out the big picture, but Hawk will be filling in at minimum the point values. Admittedly, I'm not sure that their point value assignments in DzC are that great and are adjusted somewhat regularly in errata, but it does mean someone will be paying attention to the nitty gritty details a bit even if Andy Chambers isn't!
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Post by: Weidekuh
chaos0xomega wrote:
Also to jdugedoug - Andy Chambers is overrated. The sculpts are amazing, for sure, the overall concept of play is amazing, but IMO Andy struggles with the nitty gritty of mechanics and details, i.e. hes a big picture guy.
Then it's a good thing that he works with Hawkwargames (Dave). Because Dropzone Commander is such a beautifully balanced and fun game, that i have no fear whatsoever that Dropfleet won't be as good. From the last biggest tournament: 280 games played. 4 races are within 5% of their win-%, just the UCM is another 5% below. That's crazy good for a tabletop game.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
chaos0xomega wrote:
Its hard to say this KS offers value or not without knowing MSRP, but if the prices for the starter and rulebook are the same as DzC, then pledging to the KS is actually more expensive than buying at retail (for US backers anyway).
Hawk have said that the KS price is lower than retail, how much lower isn't known but I would suspect that the final price would be around £65-70 based on the Commander pledge level (so a 10-15% discount). Dropzone Commander is £60.
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Post by: prankster
Yeah, assuming we hit £500k and that the KS exclusive ships are £15 each, Commodore will be roughly 50% saving over the KS price for what's in it. Admiral is harder to work out, as there's a number of unknowns around certain bolt ons and the number you actually get for the pledge level. But it's between £136 to £246 over the pledge price at the moment.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Andy Chambers is overrated. The sculpts are amazing, for sure, the overall concept of play is amazing, but IMO Andy struggles with the nitty gritty of mechanics and details, i.e. hes a big picture guy.
Having worked with him on projects... Nope.
He also pays attention to the details. Sadly not all of his games reached the market the way they were originally written by him. Take Dust Warfare, the original version is quite superior to the version FFG put on the market.
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Post by: RiTides
prankster wrote:Yeah, assuming we hit £500k and that the KS exclusive ships are £15 each, Commodore will be roughly 50% saving over the KS price for what's in it.
How did you calculate that number? Are you using £10 for the KS exclusive battlecruisers? That's what we estimated them as for splitting up our pledge, but I didn't think their bolt-on price was confirmed anywhere yet.
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Post by: judgedoug
chaos0xomega wrote:Also to jdugedoug - Andy Chambers is overrated. The sculpts are amazing, for sure, the overall concept of play is amazing, but IMO Andy struggles with the nitty gritty of mechanics and details, i.e. hes a big picture guy.
What's that based on? SST core rules, which he wrote, are perhaps the most elegant and balanced rules ever written by a human being. Granted that was ten years ago, and afaik he's only written Dust Warfare in the meantime, and consulted on Fanticide.
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Post by: prankster
RiTides wrote:prankster wrote:Yeah, assuming we hit £500k and that the KS exclusive ships are £15 each, Commodore will be roughly 50% saving over the KS price for what's in it.
How did you calculate that number? Are you using £10 for the KS exclusive battlecruisers? That's what we estimated them as for splitting up our pledge, but I didn't think their bolt-on price was confirmed anywhere yet.
A bit of finger in air and looking at some of the DZC products, with adjustments to nearest whole number and KS discount rolled into it.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
There has been a new update.
The key points being:
Free Upgrades
More Maps and Scenery
Gaming Accessories
Artwork
As further stretch goals once the total reaches £350k
More free stuff?
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Post by: RiTides
It says they'll have a painted PHR ship by the end of the campaign, too. Huzzah!
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
Some new PHR renders
I'm quite curious how the broadside weapons will work, It seems unlikely that such a technologically advanced race would have weapons on such narrow arcs.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Silent Puffin? wrote:Some new PHR renders
I'm quite curious how the broadside weapons will work, It seems unlikely that such a technologically advanced race would have weapons on such narrow arcs.
Heh, they named their Heavy Cruisers after Greek heroes.
That's pretty neat.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Why does that ship have braces?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Transhumanists always have amazing dental plans.
It comes free with the augments
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
"Spaceship needs braces." "Dental plan."
"Spaceship needs braces." "Dental plan."
You've made me lose my train of thought.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Very mixed feelings on this
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Post by: Krinsath
For the impacts, obviously.
I like the PHR a great deal. This is very much edging me towards going big on the KS...
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Post by: Gitzbitah
Exalt, Krinsath. I am exalting so hard right now.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
Its hit £350k so moar PHR for everyone.
I have managed to convince my wife that I really, really need more tiny little plastic space ships so I am now backer number 2428
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
Painted Shaltari.
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Post by: RoninXiC
I don't like the paint sheme, but they def. have their distinctive style which I love.
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Post by: RatBot
Holy hell, those are awesome. Gonna have to finish up my DZC Shaltari so I can make sure I've got cash to buy a ton of those ships.
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Post by: RiTides
They look pretty incredible painted up! Not my faction, but will be very happy to play against those
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Post by: Lobokai
I think every faction is my faction
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Post by: jah-joshua
i'm all about PHR...
i like the way the ship turned out, under bite, braces, and all...
kinda Orky, but i'm cool with that...
i'm loving all the work that has gone into these minis, and it is so awesome to see how DZC has taken hold, and succeeded...
always nice to see good things being appreciated ...
cheers
jah
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Post by: Souleater
I think the PHR ships look more like Armoured Kroot heads. ☺
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
The next set of stretch goals are up:
£370k – Activation card pack
£390k – (Free to all Backers) Deluxe rulebook extras for all rulebooks
£400k – UCMF Admiral T-shirt
£415k – (Free to all Backers) Desktop and screen saver assets download pack
£425k – (1 Free to each High Rank Backer) Civilian Cruise liner (ship and base)
£440k – Eden Prime Map pack
£460k – Deluxe cluster upgrade pack (resin)
£475k – Dropfleet Commander Poster range
£500k – Frigate Bonanza
£525k – ???
£550k – ???
£575k – ???
Final Day unlock: (Free to all Backers) Dropfleet Commander KS exclusive T-Shirt
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Post by: hotsauceman1
The PHR ships remind me of whales.
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Post by: NTRabbit
They do have a Right Whale or Sperm Whale feel about them from some angles
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Post by: RiTides
What is a "cluster"? Since they list a "cluster upgrade pack"?
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Post by: Krinsath
RiTides wrote:What is a "cluster"? Since they list a "cluster upgrade pack"?
I may be wrong, but based on the BoW videos I believe that they are the objectives such as cities or space stations. A cluster has zones that troops are dropped on, and that's all the further the BoW video went.
Again, my memory may be off but I'd imagine that's what it refers to.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
Krinsath wrote:
I may be wrong, but based on the BoW videos I believe that they are the objectives such as cities or space stations. A cluster has zones that troops are dropped on, and that's all the further the BoW video went.
Basically. A cluster is a ground objective that has more than one component that needs to captured/subdued.
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Post by: RiTides
I'm not sure how ground resin elements are going to work when the ship flying bases will need to occupy the same space at times. Any thoughts on that?
92905
Post by: Silent Puffin?
RiTides wrote:I'm not sure how ground resin elements are going to work when the ship flying bases will need to occupy the same space at times. Any thoughts on that?
Troops are launched from a distance away from the objective (6' from strike carriers, 8 from Motherships IIRC) so I don't see it being an issue to be honest, expect perhaps if the ship is literally over the objective and won't be able to balance standing on it.
Also, there is now a free T shirt.
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Post by: RiTides
If there are a lot of objectives on the table, and a lot of ships, it definitely seems like they could end up occupying the same space! Maybe folks will do like in Warmachine and have a flat counter available for the objectives (which I assume is what will come in the box as standard, anyway) to swap in for any resin piece if a ship base needs to land in that area.
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Post by: Weidekuh
There are more pictures of Shaltari ships around. Those are absolutely fantastic!
There are more Shaltari pictures at natfkas blog: http://natfka.blogspot.ch/2015/11/massive-shaltari-pics-and-new-stretch.html
And there are also some more under the campaign page of the kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hawkwargames/dropfleet-commander?ref=users
Absolutely incredible!!!
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Small tangeant, but anyone notice that shaltari have no Rhyme not reason to the names of their Anything?
Ships are named after Rocks or gems
Tanks are named after Weapons
Tanks are named after Gaters
But Gates are things like Eden, Havan and Gia
Seems kinda scatter brained.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Those are all UCM reporting names; like how Russian aircraft aren't really called "Foxbat", "Fulcrum" and "Fishbed".
Also, you missed the "blades" theme for the non-heavy tanks in the core rulebook.
Mind you, ships in the Royal Navy have been named after virtues, flowers, cities and tribes (and also at times, just left with whatever name they had when they were still in the French navy), so it seems reasonable.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 hotsauceman1 wrote:Small tangeant, but anyone notice that shaltari have no Rhyme not reason to the names of their Anything? Ships are named after Rocks or gems Tanks are named after Weapons Tanks are named after Gaters But Gates are things like Eden, Havan and Gia Seems kinda scatter brained.
Actually, they are consistent; most of the Shaltari vehicle names are for things (mostly) outside of Europe, and tend to have faint allusions to tribal / foreign cultures. Tomahawks are axes used by the Native Americans Kukris are knives used by the Indians and Nepalese, and is fairly common throughout South East Asia A Caiman is a type of Alligator native to Central and South America Tarantulas and Birdeaters are native to the Americas, Asia, Africa and some parts Southern Europe. Ocelots, Birdeaters and Jaguars are also native to the Americas. I will admit that the gates are the odd ones out. Perhaps they were trying to allude to the Earth or some sort of mysticism. The ships being named after gems makes sense, as Shaltari vehicles have been likened to jewels. Its not as if the UCM are any different; their tanks are named after sword and their aircraft angels. Their scouts and their ground command unit are named after bears, and their aerial command unit is named after a mythological bird. Their ships are named after major Earth cities.
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Post by: RiTides
I actually like the ship naming more than the normal DzC names . It does seem more uniform on its own so far, which is nice (and imo, doesn't have to match the ground force naming conventions - the earth cities for UCM ships being a great example). But yeah, Shaltari in DzC names seemed a bit scattered. I prefer their ship names
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Post by: Sikil
The PHR ships look alot like the Amarr ships in EVE-Online. Especially the Apocalypse and Armageddon classes of Amarr capital ships.
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Post by: Krinsath
Having now seen the Shaltari ships from multiple angles, I do like them a bit better. Not sure I want a huge number of them, but I wouldn't mind a small fleet versus the likely-huge UCM and PHR fleets I'd like (I suppose this makes me a species-ist, since I'm preferring the human factions more).
This one is going to hurt my wallet so bad... 
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
RiTides wrote:I actually like the ship naming more than the normal DzC names . It does seem more uniform on its own so far, which is nice (and imo, doesn't have to match the ground force naming conventions - the earth cities for UCM ships being a great example). But yeah, Shaltari in DzC names seemed a bit scattered. I prefer their ship names
Yeah, I do like how they use different naming conventions for the ground and land forces as well. Naming the UCM ships after cities was a nice touch; they are big, iconic (in the eyes of the UCM public, no doubt) warships, so naming them after Terran cities, which in-universe surely must have some sort of mythical prestige makes a lot of sense. Interesting to note that the Shaltari ships appear to have a larger version of the Gauss cannon on them. Its probably going to hurt like hell.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Im gonna hold on to my Admiral pledge a bit longer while I think it over, but I think Im going to drop out of the campaign, or downgrade to Commodore. By way of comparison to other kickstarter campaigns, this one just doesn't generate all that much excitement in me (it might be because they have yet to post images or information for a good portion of the stretch goals and rules/gameplay, etc.). On top of that, Im not really interested with all the 'collectible' stuff the Admiral comes with. I just want UCM/PHR minis and relevant gameplay accessories basically.
If the mats were something other than paper though, I'd probably stick with it.
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Post by: Alpharius
Who knows? That might still be coming/be in the works...
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Post by: warboss
Aren't they still only making paper mats for DZC? I know other companies are making pretty much carbon copies of them (iirc there was a much delayed kickstarter for plastic tiles) in some form but I can't recall Hawk selling them direct. I don't expect them to make an official rubber playmat for this game and honestly I hope they focus on making sure the models launch firing all cylinders instead.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
They could have gone with printed vinyl or fabric instead. They would cost more but are significantly more durable and will last a bell of a lot longer.
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Post by: Thunderfrog
No resistance ships?
If not I'll pass.
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Post by: warboss
That would be like expecting the Belgian resistance in WW2 to have a carrier fleet operating in the Pacific. Don't they use 200 year old refurbed hardware combined with orky frankentrucks? And they're supposed to have a space capable battlefleet? On top of that, they're the newest faction in DZC and there are plenty of other folks in line in front of them.
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Post by: jSewell
In time, maybe. Could see them having ships like Minmitar from Eve Online. Basically junk yard pieces welded together with huge engines and artillery guns welded on lol
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Hawk made it quite clear, that they will not be a proper fleet. They might have a ship here and there, but that´s all. Their fluff explains why. Nearly all spacecraft were destroyed and what survived tried to get es far away from the Cradle Worlds as possible.
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Post by: winnertakesall
Yeah, to quote their FAQ:
Will you be doing other races like the Resistance?
A Resistance faction is not possible to create in terms of the background and character of the universe as an entire fleet. We would like to involve them in some way, but there are no plans to do a fleet of resistance as a standalone faction.
I think I'm the only person on the planet who really likes the scourge ships. Very alien feeling, feel like a organism and a vessel at the same time.
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Post by: jSewell
I like the scourge ships but they're hard to tell apart for me.
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Post by: winnertakesall
I only jumped in recently, but I don't really get why if you were going to get a UCM or Scourge fleet, why you wouldn't just pay the extra £15 and get an entire another fleet, and a couple of other bits.
Am I missing something there?
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Im not sure what you're referring to. If you mean a second Lieutenant pledge, thats not possible unless you have multiple kickstarter accounts.
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Post by: Zatsuku
Wait, people don't like the Scourge ships? I think they are amazing. And I don't even like the Scourge models from DZC. (despite playing them, thanks starter box!)
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Post by: winnertakesall
I mean the commander pledge. It's only £15 more than the lieutenant for an entire extra fleet. Is that an absurdly good deal that I'd be stupid nt to go for, or am I being stupid considering its 4am?
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Post by: Souleater
I think the scourge ships are incredible.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So far my least favorite ships are the PHR cruisers, and I love the PHR cruisers. The scourge cruisers may be my favorite, although the UCM and Shaltari make some convincing arguments. UCM has the best frigates. This campaign is hitting all of my buttons.
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Post by: Thunderfrog
warboss wrote:
That would be like expecting the Belgian resistance in WW2 to have a carrier fleet operating in the Pacific. Don't they use 200 year old refurbed hardware combined with orky frankentrucks? And they're supposed to have a space capable battlefleet? On top of that, they're the newest faction in DZC and there are plenty of other folks in line in front of them.
Or... there are four folks ahead of them?
UCM, Scourge, Shaltari, and PHR. And hey! They have ships coming out.
I think it's bullocks they would make a faction, include it in the game, then not plan to include it in expansions to the game. Even if it were a "no capital ships" kind of a vibe, filled with junkers and small ships without jump drives, I would be okay with that. Even using 200 yr old hardware, space travel was available to them then, there's no reason it shouldn't be this far later.
1. Scavenged frankenships built of human, phr, and scourge parts?
2. Modified Lifthawks for space flight in upper atmosphere. (All their fights are techincally limited to that Resistance factions homeworld anyways.)
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Post by: Killionaire
Alas, I too was hoping for Battlestar Galacticafleet commander, but it looks like (for now) they're leaving resistance/old refugee ships as a seperate thing than a faction... for now. Perhaps that will change later? In the meanwhile, those UCM ships are too gorgeous for me to resist.
If you want to play a linked campaign, perhaps your resistance are the boots on the ground and UCM's offering space assistance prior to an actual invasion?
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
I think it's bullocks they would make a faction, include it in the game, then not plan to include it in expansions to the game. Even if it were a "no capital ships" kind of a vibe, filled with junkers and small ships without jump drives, I would be okay with that. Even using 200 yr old hardware, space travel was available to them then, there's no reason it shouldn't be this far later.
1. Scavenged frankenships built of human, phr, and scourge parts?
2. Modified Lifthawks for space flight in upper atmosphere. (All their fights are techincally limited to that Resistance factions homeworld anyways.)
Actually Hawk is not a fan of rewriting fluff just for generating more sales. They stick with the fluff they have written.
Resistance might be a sub-faction at best, but never a full fleet. Whatever was left of the fleet was destroyed by the Scourge after the rest of himanity left. There are no wrecks of UCM, PHR or Scourge origin. UCM would recycle after a battle what is reusable, cause they always try to make best use of all resources. Shaltari craft go into self-destruction before enemy can use them for research or parts. And Scourge in a similar way disintegrate. Lifthawks would be too valuable to waste them in an atmospheric battle, where they are outnumbered and undergunned. A litfhawk is rather tiny even compared to a frigate. Remember that guns on the side of the New Orleans Class? Those are the same lasers used for orbital defense and a Lifthawk would fit easily into the space of one barrel.
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Post by: Thebiggesthat
I think it's great they are sticking to the fluff. Too many times, you see companies re-writing or selling out years of background and story, just to sell more minis.
Good on you Hawk!
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
*cough* Age of S...*cough*
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Post by: Nostromodamus
 Thunderfrog wrote:
I think it's bullocks they would make a faction, include it in the game, then not plan to include it in expansions to the game.
Except DFC is not an expansion to DZC, it's a different game. There's almost zero reason to see any Resistance fighters in DFC.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Thunderfrog wrote: warboss wrote: That would be like expecting the Belgian resistance in WW2 to have a carrier fleet operating in the Pacific. Don't they use 200 year old refurbed hardware combined with orky frankentrucks? And they're supposed to have a space capable battlefleet? On top of that, they're the newest faction in DZC and there are plenty of other folks in line in front of them.
Or... there are four folks ahead of them? UCM, Scourge, Shaltari, and PHR. And hey! They have ships coming out. I think it's bullocks they would make a faction, include it in the game, then not plan to include it in expansions to the game. Even if it were a "no capital ships" kind of a vibe, filled with junkers and small ships without jump drives, I would be okay with that. Even using 200 yr old hardware, space travel was available to them then, there's no reason it shouldn't be this far later. 1. Scavenged frankenships built of human, phr, and scourge parts? 2. Modified Lifthawks for space flight in upper atmosphere. (All their fights are techincally limited to that Resistance factions homeworld anyways.)
Trying to take on a professional fleet out in open space with poorly built space craft is suicide. Especially when said space craft would be much smaller than their opposition, and lacks firepower. The only reason why the Resistance works on the ground is because they can hide and launch quick raids on soft targets. In an open battle against Scourge ground forces they would be decimated. Also, please explain how the resistance can get access to PHR and Scourge wreckage, develop the know-how to reassemble it and do it all in secrecy? I'm pretty sure the Scourge would notice a fleet lifting off from a world they occupy.
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
There is a cruise liner bolt on/free ship which may well have something to do with the Resistance, its not likely to belong to any of the other factions. Unless its nothing more than a terrain piece/objective of course
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Post by: RiTides
Thunderfrog, for what it's worth my faction for DzC is Resistance and I'm going with UCM for the accompanying fleet . It makes sense, and hopefully we'll get a few special Resistance / pre-Invasion / etc ships to include with them one day!
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Post by: prankster
Just a quick bit of information, that came out of the comments Q&A session today. You can't just pledge £1 and add bolt ons, you have to actually pick a pledge level. They're also not going to add a book only pledge.
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Post by: Theophony
Couldn't they come up with a ragtag fleet of ships with maybe one carrier or escort at its center to be a fleet escaping from alien occupancy. The fleet could be made of mining vessels, pleasure ships, and bulk transporters that tried to escape a captured world, and have gotten just minimal defensive capabilities. Perhaps some UCM forces defected to protect them and are on the run with their illegitimate government and could then still fight against the main faction. This galactic battle fleet could just be trying to find a new world for the survivors to live peacefully on, and are constantly being harassed by the big bad Cyl.........er........, wait I've seen this before, maybe it will happen again.
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Post by: JOHIRA
So to sum up, In a genre that shamelessly recycles sci-fi imagery from game to game, some of us are very angry that a kickstarter for the release of a new game with new rules, a new model for space fighting and new IP does not include plans to rip-off another franchise's imagery.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
160 years after the fall of the Cradle Worlds?
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Post by: Theophony
JOHIRA wrote:So to sum up, In a genre that shamelessly recycles sci-fi imagery from game to game, some of us are very angry that a kickstarter for the release of a new game with new rules, a new model for space fighting and new IP does not include plans to rip-off another franchise's imagery.
No, I was just giving an idea of how the resistance could have a fleet. Not powerful, but still possible. Plus I'm not familiar with the DZC history as I bought the rulebook, but limited time means I don't know if there are smaller alien races that could all band together like in babylon5.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Im a bit confused as to why people would expect the resistance to have a fleet in the first place, it really makes no logical sense.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
It makes me think of spines, I wonder how it will look in bone color.
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Post by: Alpharius
chaos0xomega wrote:Im a bit confused as to why people would expect the resistance to have a fleet in the first place, it really makes no logical sense.
There's your answer right there!
All kidding aside, some people just want different things, is all!
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Post by: Silent Puffin?
 Theophony wrote:Couldn't they come up with a ragtag fleet of ships with maybe one carrier or escort at its center to be a fleet escaping from alien occupancy.
Fleets like that would already have reached the colonies centuries before DFC. The fluff is really quite clear on this; there are no ships left on the cradle worlds, they all fled or were destroyed. Some of the escaped ships didn't reach the colonies so could form the basis of a special character or (very small) 'mercenary' faction but there simply won't be anything approaching a fleet.
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