What are CSM good at?

Getting Jancoran and jreily89 and other elder posters to bicker like grumpy old neck beards or super annoying persons.

This is why dakkadakka cant have nice things!

Naw, its GWs fault that we have such huge gaps in codex power. Every game has whiners sure, but it takes a particularly horrible balance in a game to illicit constant nerdrage 24/7

40k has more whiners than most

Get on with that Vassal game boys!

 MWHistorian wrote:

I think the main problem, Jancoran, is that you haven't shown how a CSM is equal in power to Eldar, C:SM and Necrons.

If they aren't on an even level, then, given that players are equal skill, the Eldear, marines and Necrons should win more often.
Do you deny this?
If you do, then I think that what you're saying is that power levels of different codexes aren't that big of a factor in determining the winner.
Is that closer to what you're saying?

I don't think its a main problem because I never made the claim. And yes that more or less summarizes my point. And equal skill is as much a myth as equal codex's so unfortunately I don't kow that its possible to test that theory.

I state that the codex only needs to allow you to compete.

To explain: They will never actually all be "equal" in every place. It's literally impossible. Hoping for that isn't even a real expectation. It doesnt matter who publishes it nor how long they listen to us, it won't happen if you want variety. 40K offers more variety than any game of its kind. So given that we have an appetite for variety, we won't ever see "even" codex's like you see in Flames of War for example which is far more balanced by its far lesser levels of differentiation between units.

Consider that in all matchups, there is going to be a strategy that will allow you to compete. The strategy is the thing. You need tools for that strategy. It is certainly true that codex's allow for varying numbers of builds that allow for that particular strategy. But its true that they do allow it. So it is my opinion that the inflexibility of relearning or adjusting the strategy to fit the tools at hand is the bigger problem. I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice if more strategies were supported by whatever codex you prefer. Of course it would. However, variety demands that not every strategy be as compatible with every codex and you must learn to win a different way when the codex changes.

If the Codex were incapable of allowing for success, there would be none. It's that simple. So consequently the real challenge for a General is to form strategies that the codex will allow. And if that style of play doesn't suit you, own it. But do not claim that the Codex owes it to you to play its wars in a way it isnt really designed for. Your wish that it did will persist whether you attempt a second solution or not. So attempt a second solution until it works. The next codex is as likely to change mine as anyones and i am strategically flexible enough to adapt. You can be too.

The people who rely on the killing power of a given unit to win will win some games simply because of the relative difference between opposing units when the losing end of that equation doesn't do a good job of recognizing and compensating as i did with my Raptors. That's the thing that most here on Dakkadakka primarily focus in on is that difference in opposing strengths yet never going deep to consider what could be done about it. To hear them tell it, nothing.

Yet here i am, with two different lists, at two different stores, both from supposedly weaker codex's... and yet undefeated.

What does it tell the observer? It tells him that the codex supported my strategy. It tells one that my strategy is compatible with the tool bag of this codex. Both Codex's really.

So a lot of moving parts: Strategy before you get to the table, tactics during the game and ability to adjust to good and bd dice rolls as the game goes on or unexpected enemy actions. The terrain, the timing, the mission... Its all different every time and the Chaos Space Marine codex will allow you to compete. the codex itself doesn't compete. You do.

So i find myself unsympathetic to the thought that Chaos cant compete.


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 godardc wrote:
I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

Bingo

None of the codexes, minus legion of the damned, is outright unplayable. And nobody here is staying that all codexes need to be perfect in all modes of play. I don't expect CSM to be the greatest at tarpitting with weak units, nor do I think it should have the greatest tanks that surpass previous wave serpant BS. What I DO expect is for it to support its official Lore factions in the game, that is what is important to me personally. Can alpha legion use cultists as more then a tax? Not really. Can iron warriors use non-possessed vehicles to shell a base properly? No. Can word Bearers have psyker priests? No. Can arhiman, master of divination and foreseeing, actually use divination powers? No.

There is a massive issue with the book, in that it does not represent chaos as a whole accurately, nor a big chunk of its factions as more then "aligned to X god". Chaos daemons does it right, space marines does too. I think the major thing here is that you are coming with the assumption that the book is as-is, and shouldn't be changed if You Personally don't see a problem with it in your list. That's fine, but that's merely an opinion.. And an unpopular one at that. But when a book actively scares people from the hobby (which has happened on 3 separate occasions over here) where their codexes were just so busted that they could not make a truly fluffy army without going Unbound and ignoring ally rules, then it becomes a Serious problem

 Jancoran wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

I think the main problem, Jancoran, is that you haven't shown how a CSM is equal in power to Eldar, C:SM and Necrons.

If they aren't on an even level, then, given that players are equal skill, the Eldear, marines and Necrons should win more often.
Do you deny this?
If you do, then I think that what you're saying is that power levels of different codexes aren't that big of a factor in determining the winner.
Is that closer to what you're saying?

I don't think its a main problem because I never made the claim. And yes that more or less summarizes my point. And equal skill is as much a myth as equal codex's so unfortunately I don't kow that its possible to test that theory.

Well, it's simple.
You take a look at tournament representation at the larger more competitive events and use a sliding scale.
How many winning armies are from faction X?
How many top ten armies are from faction X?
How many armies from that faction show up to a tournament at all from faction X?
You take them all, and each number alone tells you something.
Then you combine the numbers, again, using math, and determine the median, mean, mode, and standard deviation of placement within tournaments.
After that, you look at the individual matchups and data and see how the armies compare.
Generally, this is how meta's are formed by the more competitive players in most games.

If you do this, you'll see the dexes that people think are weak are generally on the bottom of this scale, while armies that people think are good are at the top of the sliding scale. Win % works, but not as well since mirror matches can fudge the numbers and removing them is non trivial.

 Jancoran wrote:

I state that the codex only needs to allow you to compete.

Well, then argument over. Any list from any army in the game can compete. It's a dice game, my opponent can roll all 1's and I can roll all 6's and I'll pretty much win against everything no matter the codex taken.
How bad are your chances with certain dexes? Outside of nurgle, against the power dexes, it's 90-10 most likely. With nurgle, it's probably 80/85-20/15. That's an immensely disfavorable matchup.

 Jancoran wrote:

To explain: They will never actually all be "equal" in every place. It's literally impossible. Hoping for that isn't even a real expectation. It doesnt matter who publishes it nor how long they listen to us, it won't happen if you want variety. 40K offers more variety than any game of its kind. So given that we have an appetite for variety, we won't ever see "even" codex's like you see in Flames of War for example which is far more balanced by its far lesser levels of differentiation between units.

I disagree about variety. I think WMH has more actual variety, since you see way more varied lists at tournaments then you do in 40k, since the lists in 40k seem to be pretty similar within the faction. Its very rare you see something new and see it being good, while in WMH new tech is coming out all the time.
WMH is also more balanced than 40k, though it certainly has problems.

 Jancoran wrote:

Consider that in all matchups, there is going to be a strategy that will allow you to compete. The strategy is the thing. You need tools for that strategy. It is certainly true that codex's allow for varying numbers of builds that allow for that particular strategy. But its true that they do allow it. So it is my opinion that the inflexibility of relearning or adjusting the strategy to fit the tools at hand is the bigger problem. I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice if more strategies were supported by whatever codex you prefer. Of course it would. However, variety demands that not every strategy be as compatible with every codex and you must learn to win a different way when the codex changes.

I'll admit, if 40k allowed sideboards and multiple lists, this would help the balance in the game dramatically, since you'd be allowed to employ different strategies. I still think this would favor the better dexes, who tend to have a larger amount of better units in the first place, than the weaker dexes, but it wouldn't be the massive imbalance it is now.

 Jancoran wrote:

If the Codex were incapable of allowing for success, there would be none. It's that simple. So consequently the real challenge for a General is to form strategies that the codex will allow. And if that style of play doesn't suit you, own it. But do not claim that the Codex owes it to you to play its wars in a way it isnt really designed for. Your wish that it did will persist whether you attempt a second solution or not. So attempt a second solution until it works. The next codex is as likely to change mine as anyones and i am strategically flexible enough to adapt. You can be too.

The problem with this statement is that there are no large tournaments competitive tournaments where CSM are the main force and winning.
None that anyone has posted as of yet. You would think after 11 pages someone would have.
So, it follows that the codex is incapable (if you want, extremely improbable) of winning a tournament.

 Jancoran wrote:

The people who rely on the killing power of a given unit to win will win some games simply because of the relative difference between opposing units when the losing end of that equation doesn't do a good job of recognizing and compensating as i did with my Raptors. That's the thing that most here on Dakkadakka primarily focus in on is that difference in opposing strengths yet never going deep to consider what could be done about it. To hear them tell it, nothing.

No one is saying killing power alone is all that matters, that's a bit of a strawman.
Take the posts where we looked at your blob. It was judged on several factors

1) Melee power. What variety of targets can it kill in melee and how effectively does it do so? (Killing power, and here it did really well, only having issues with the very best units in the game)
2) Shooting Power. What variety of targets can it kill with shooting attacks and how effectively does it do so? (Here it did pretty poorly, as 4 lascannons at 600 points is pretty bad. The unit probably wants to run most of the time anyway)
3) Toughness. What kind of firepower wants to target this unit, and how common is it to see that firepower? How resistant is it to firepower? When do wounds caused start to stop the unit from doing its job? (Here it did pretty poorly, since it's weak to bolters and scat bikes).
4) Speed/Range. How quickly can this unit get to its effective range (in this case, melee) and how safe is it there? (Here it did poorly, since running stops the lascannons from working and with such a slow unit you need to run).

You yourself posted no ways to overcome the weaknesses of the blob. IG, as far as I can tell, don't have a way to speed up a unit (its biggest weakness) and hiding such a large blob that wants to reach melee is extremely difficult.
This isn't warmachine, where casters and solos come with a variety of buffs that can really polish a turd (like pdenny or pskarre).

 Jancoran wrote:

Yet here i am, with two different lists, at two different stores, both from supposedly weaker codex's... and yet undefeated.

Well, if you went up against Dread Mob with a hard counter in your list, and a genestealer cult from nids then color me unimpressed. Genestealers have been terrible for a long time now, and the walkers aren't very good (5 scat bikes will remove 1 a turn, given a 4++ save. WS has good odds too, firedragons can target the LoW. A good eldar list can remove 4-8 walkers a turn, necron can do the same, as can marines).

I think beyond one person no one is calling sisters weak. The exorcist alone has some of the best firepower available on a tank, especially against other tanks and GMC's. Sisters are a great army, just very monobuild. If you deviated heavily from the mono-build and won against Centstars and such, that would be impressive.

 Jancoran wrote:

What does it tell the observer? It tells him that the codex supported my strategy. It tells one that my strategy is compatible with the tool bag of this codex. Both Codex's really.

autumnlotus wrote:


There is a massive issue with the book, in that it does not represent chaos as a whole accurately,

I get that completely and I do indeed hope that improves. That has nothing to do with competitivenesss and yes: people have outright said it cannot compete, here on this thread, as their problem with it. And I have said that your objection is the valid one, not the competitive gripe which is what others are centering their point of view on..

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Depends. The first time I went up against him in a 2v2, it was a Wraithknight, Jetbikes, Wave Serpent, and Wraithguard at 1000 points each player. Recently, he ran min Tau 2 Riptides Allies to his Jetbikes + Wraithknight shenanigans in a 1850 tournament.

Yup so that sounds pretty competitive. Very normal list. Wraithguard are one reason why I like my Mutilators and Obliterators so much. Congratz. You get to overwatch...one...Mutilator... hehehe. WHACK.

Well against that list the Wraith Knight and Riptide would probably drop turn one. I guess it depends on if he has a ton o bikes or just min maxed bikes. But I'd probably get both in turn one if i go first. Considerably longer battle plan if he goes first (as i would then be outflanking).

But yeah I have seen those lists and fought them. My Tau Empire list in particular was successful against TauDar. Pathfinders, one with Dark Strider, took one down last time I played while my Stubborn troops swamped the Riptide. It was the bikes that did most of the damage in my last game. they actually were the threat in that case.

He sounds like he likes his big toyz.

Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.


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 Filch wrote:
What are CSM good at?

Getting Jancoran and jreily89 and other elder posters to bicker like grumpy old neck beards or super annoying persons.

This is why dakkadakka cant have nice things!

Hey, I could be like some other users and complain about my codex in every thread.



Also, if you're gonna insult me passively, at least spell my name right. Come at me scrublord, I'm ripped.

Akiasura wrote:

If my opponents fielded the Dread Mob and genestealer cult I'd be very happy to run my CSM all day every day...

...The exorcist alone has some of the best firepower available on a tank, especially against other tanks and GMC's. Sisters are a great army, just very monobuild. If you deviated heavily from the mono-build and won against Centstars and such, that would be impressive.

You see Akiasura? You think that by minimizing my opponent you minimize my point. You don't. That tact is just such a weak response. My opponents are not the issue.

It says here you found me impressive. Good. I didn't bring a single Exorcist to defeat the Centstar, the War convocation nor the Castigator + Daemonkin. Not one. No Celestine. No Immolators. Ta Da!

You have not yet compelled me to give all my wins back. You also haven't compelled me to give future ones away. If you want your argument to stand, it has to actually survive contact with the enemy. Not on a forum. Mine has. Yours, clearly, doesn't because you now refuse to play your Alpha Legion and further refuse to learn anything from anyone doing well! You play Eldar now because with Eldar, being a strong codex, you hope to simply "Eldar someone off the table".

However it is you preferred to play your Alpha Legion isn't working and to make it work, you'd have to shift your strategy and list now. If you just can't be bothered to modify your strategy, well... that would be an Akiasura issue, not a codex issue. Have fun playing Biel-Tan. I play Eldar also and it's fun too. There's nothing wrong with it. Just dont give up on your Alpha Legion. Start experimenting. Dont worry about initial losses as you try new things and eventually it will develop into a list you can play. Or don't.


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 jreilly89 wrote:


Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.

I was referring to my Sisters of Battle! If going first, they would destroy the Wraith Knight and Riptide turn one. I expanded that to say that my super sneaky Tau Empire also did well against a similar list though it takes considerably longer.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

If my opponents fielded the Dread Mob and genestealer cult I'd be very happy to run my CSM all day every day...

...The exorcist alone has some of the best firepower available on a tank, especially against other tanks and GMC's. Sisters are a great army, just very monobuild. If you deviated heavily from the mono-build and won against Centstars and such, that would be impressive.

You see Akiasura? You think that by minimizing my opponent you minimize my point. You don't. That tact is just such a weak response. My opponents are not the issue.

Uh, the whole argument is that if your opponent plays one of the better dexes/builds, CSM struggle to compete to the point where they don't win at tournaments.
The opponent is literally all we are discussing. It's the entire point of the conversation.
If your opponents were not using the dexes and builds that are amazing (and Dread mob/ genestealer cult isn't amazing, it's very weak) then your victories don't matter as far as this conversation goes. It's not the discussion we have been having.

 Jancoran wrote:

It says here you found me impressive. Good. I didn't bring a single Exorcist to defeat the Centstar, the War convocation nor the Castigator + Daemonkin. Not one. No Celestine. No Immolators. Ta Da!

What was your list then?
There are a few units that you see spammed in sisters (immolators aren't one of them, btw, unless going for armor spam. Without exorcists I wouldn't take them either, though the two make a good pairing). Celestine isn't as good as she used to be (she was amazing in previous editions, now she doesn't stack up). Jacobus is good but you probably don't want him as a warlord, but his buffs and prayers can be solid.

 Jancoran wrote:

You have not yet compelled me to give all my wins back. You also haven't compelled me to give future ones away. If you want your argument to stand, it has to actually survive contact with the enemy. Not on a forum. Mine has. Yours, clearly, doesn't because you now refuse to play your Alpha Legion and further refuse to learn anything from anyone doing well! You play Eldar now because with Eldar, being a strong codex, you hope to simply "Eldar someone off the table".

First, I'm not telling you to give wins back. I'm not even sure what that means tbh.
Second, your CSM list has survived fights with lists no one is saying they would struggle against. Dread Mob is bad, genestealers is bad. It's really an uphill battle for the enemy, and that is saying something.
If your list survives contact with a good necron list, a good SM list, a good eldar list, and a good tau list, then I'll take a look at your strategies and lists in detail.

I play Biel-tan, I mainly use Striking scorpions and Warp Spiders with a small amount of Dire avengers and fire dragons in transports. I really doubt I'm Eldaring my opponents off the table with that list.
I use zero bikes, and no Wraith Knight. I don't use the Aspect Warrior Shrine since we normally don't use formations here, though when we do I take advantage of it. BS 5 on eldar units is no joke, especially the spiders or dragons.
I still do well against the other lists, including saim-hann (who does bring 20 bikes) and iyanden (where I see guard and Knights). Eldar are an amazing dex, and can compete with everyone with a variety of lists, though they have power builds.

The only thing I learned from your CSM games is that CSM can beat Dread Mob and Genestealers, some of the worst lists in the game. It doesn't really parallel over to necrons, tau, SM, and eldar that are very common in my meta. I certainly couldn't use the eye of night, since only eldar bring tanks in my meta, making it useless and way overpriced. Tau usually bring 1 tank, but it isn't very important and the lord w/eye is way more expensive then it is.

 Jancoran wrote:

However it is you preferred to play your Alpha Legion isn't working and to make it work, you'd have to shift your strategy and list now. If you just can't be bothered to modify your strategy, well... that would be an Akiasura issue, not a codex issue. Have fun playing Biel-Tan. I play Eldar also and it's fun too. There's nothing wrong with it. Just dont give up on your Alpha Legion. Start experimenting. Dont worry about initial losses as you try new things and eventually it will develop into a list you can play. Or don't.

It wasn't initial loses, it was pretty consistent losses. If we list swapped, I crushed my own list pretty handily, so I doubt it was me being a bad general. Usually losing 1-2 squads at most and then crushing the rest after the swap.

Not that it mattered, but my final list ended up not being very alpha legion at the end. SM felt like a better fit before the centurions were out, tbh, since sternguard feel like better chosen in everyway. I could ally in IG for cultists and they seemed like a better fit as well.
My list consisted of Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle DP/Mace, Nurgle bike squad with artifact flamer, 2 drakes, 2 small cultists to hold objectives, and some oblits. I have several fiends that I tried, they tended to die quickly. The maulerfiend wasn't so bad if I switched my army around to an armor spam, but the new bikes and necrons put a stop to that. The best I got with it was switching out the oblits for havoks with MoT on a skyshield and dropping termies to target rear armor of heavy tanks with meltas, but they still died to weight of fire or the really fast assaulting deathstars that are in the game now.

A lot of us used to play CSM. Nurgle CSM was probably one of the more popular lists locally in 5th edition around here, and none of us play it now. It just doesn't do well against the powerful lists.

Akiasura wrote:


Uh, the whole argument is that if your opponent plays one of the better dexes/builds, CSM struggle to compete to the point where they don't win at tournaments.
The opponent is literally all we are discussing. It's the entire point of the conversation.
If your opponents were not using the dexes and builds that are amazing (and Dread mob/ genestealer cult isn't amazing, it's very weak) then your victories don't matter as far as this conversation goes. It's not the discussion we have been having.
.

Not really true. Ive explained the kinds of lists I generally play. That i didnt play against one of them THAT day is immaterial and you are absolutely wrong about the Dread mob as all three of its opponents including me had a hard time dealing with it.

I'm not in the habit of losing on purpose. Or at all if it can be helped. So if it weren't working against the various Battle Companies, Decurions, Castigators, Khornate Daemonkin, FMC flying Circus's, as well as the Eldar wave spam, Wraith+Bike spam, Paladinstars White Scars Bike army with Castigator and so on... Would I keep doing it? No one wins every game. Certainly not against the likes of our Generals. But I don't feel "out of the game" or feel as if I never had the chance.

You are just barking up the wrong tree here. You really are. if you want to attack some "meta" (Man do i hate that word), this isn't the one. Just the variety alone of the armies I see is enough of difficulty factor because you just can't tailor (not that I would anyways, but I absolutely know some do it to me!). You have to be able to carry a list that can handle it all and that's not easy to do. make your list an Eldar killer? here comes a horde army. Wanna kill Hordes? Here comes the Paladinstar. think you're going to out 2+ the enemy? White Scars on bikes with Grav for days. You wanna' take the Decuron that never dies? Haemonculous Coven for the win. there's a counter for just about every darn thing around here so you have to think more globally.

And that has helpd me immensely so while it is more difficult it is also more rewarding.

Like i say: giving up is the surest path to defeat. So don't give up on your Alpha Legion. Just develop it further. think strategically instead of trying to overpower your opponent. It yields very interesting and flexible lists.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


Uh, the whole argument is that if your opponent plays one of the better dexes/builds, CSM struggle to compete to the point where they don't win at tournaments.
The opponent is literally all we are discussing. It's the entire point of the conversation.
If your opponents were not using the dexes and builds that are amazing (and Dread mob/ genestealer cult isn't amazing, it's very weak) then your victories don't matter as far as this conversation goes. It's not the discussion we have been having.
.

Not really true. Ive explained the kinds of lists I generally play. That i didnt play against one of them THAT day is immaterial and you are absolutely wrong about the Dread mob as all three of its opponents including me had a hard time dealing with it.

You are using this particular tournament and these battles with your CSM force as proof that CSM can compete in a competitive environment. If you want to say you face teleporting centstars and bike spam, that's fine. I'd suggest posting a battle report, because you haven't so far of these encounters. In fact, you called 20 bikes list tailoring when it was brought up against your IG blob, which suggests you don't consider it a common item (despite later posting a list with 15 yourself).
That and some of your other battle reports speak to your local players more than you think.

These lists (Dread Mob, Genestealers) don't generally exist in a competitive environment since they face an extremely uphill battle against the better dexes. If you have reports of your night lords list winning against the competitive lists I'd love to see them.
I don't need to read how to beat bad lists, it's quite easy.

If everyone struggled against Dread Mob I don't know what to tell you. It's bad. Try to find a tournament where the dread mob won if you don't believe me.
Or try to refute any of the points I made about the army and how it fares against the better lists rather than go "you're wrong".

 Jancoran wrote:

I'm not in the habit of losing on purpose. Or at all if it can be helped. So if it weren't working against the various Battle Companies, Decurions, Castigators, Khornate Daemonkin, FMC flying Circus's, as well as the Eldar wave spam, Wraith+Bike spam, Paladinstars White Scars Bike army with Castigator and so on... Would I keep doing it? No one wins every game. Certainly not against the likes of our Generals. But I don't feel "out of the game" or feel as if I never had the chance.

Sisters can compete against the better lists. You mainly seem to put your nurgle csm against the weaker lists, from the reports we've seen so far.
Do you have a report of your CSM list going against the decurions, centstars, or bikes? Because the last time we saw such a report, it involved one of your amazing generals suiciding a wraithknight by charging a unit that re-rolls to hit/ BS 3 overwatches with 4 lascannons after it had been wounded.
But yeah, amazing generals.

 Jancoran wrote:

You are just barking up the wrong tree here. You really are. if you want to attack some "meta" (Man do i hate that word), this isn't the one. Just the variety alone of the armies I see is enough of difficulty factor because you just can't tailor (not that I would anyways, but I absolutely know some do it to me!). You have to be able to carry a list that can handle it all and that's not easy to do. make your list an Eldar killer? here comes a horde army. Wanna kill Hordes? Here comes the Paladinstar. think you're going to out 2+ the enemy? White Scars on bikes with Grav for days. You wanna' take the Decuron that never dies? Haemonculous Coven for the win. there's a counter for just about every darn thing around here so you have to think more globally.

Generally lists that are good can take most of the opponents out there without being too badly disadvantaged.
A bike spam with wraith knight list can take down hordes, 2+ spam, and tanks. It does better against hordes, sure, but it still can do quite well against most lists.
Decurion also does quite well, since regular necron warriors can take on anything the wraiths cant. They are both incredibly tough, and it's rare to see anything that removes them without a substantial point investment.
A SM list with a solid bike squad, centstar, and drop pods does well against most opponents as well.

CSM, Orks, BA, DE (I don't think the Coven would beat decurion), and IG lack such lists, and it's why they don't do well. Sure you can build a list from some of these codexes that might take out 1 of the above lists (maybe) but you can't handle all of them and that is what you need to be prepared to do to win a tournament.

 Jancoran wrote:

And that has helpd me immensely so while it is more difficult it is also more rewarding.

Like i say: giving up is the surest path to defeat. So don't give up on your Alpha Legion. Just develop it further. think strategically instead of trying to overpower your opponent. It yields very interesting and flexible lists.

Tbh, your CSM list isn't that far off from my Alpha Legion list. Nurgle spam, we both tried oblits, you took mutilators, I took bikes over raptors (which, imo, bikes are better but the way you use raptors is fine. Raptors are still a good unit within the dex), we both take a few rhinos and use them to block LoS. I don't use the eye of night but it would fail in my meta since it only works on HPs, and nobody is really spamming tanks anymore in a competitive scene outside of 1-2 formations.

The difference is you are using your CSM against Dread Mobs and Genestealers, while I'm facing Saim-Hann and Ultramarines.
If you have battle reports where your CSM face saim-hann and centstars, I'd love to see it. I can't find one where the CSM win anywhere.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.

I was referring to my Sisters of Battle! If going first, they would destroy the Wraith Knight and Riptide turn one. I expanded that to say that my super sneaky Tau Empire also did well against a similar list though it takes considerably longer.

Ah my mistake. Pronouns still, I'd be interested to see you destroy a Wraithknight and Riptide Turn One.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.

I was referring to my Sisters of Battle! If going first, they would destroy the Wraith Knight and Riptide turn one. I expanded that to say that my super sneaky Tau Empire also did well against a similar list though it takes considerably longer.

Ah my mistake. Pronouns still, I'd be interested to see you destroy a Wraithknight and Riptide Turn One.

Yeah I don't see how that is possible without the exorcist tank. Sisters lack long range anti-mc firepower when you remove the exorcist.

Akiasura wrote:

In fact, you called 20 bikes list tailoring when it was brought up against your IG blob, which suggests...

...You mainly seem to put your nurgle csm against the weaker lists, from the reports we've seen so far.
Do you have a report of your CSM list going against the decurions, centstars, or bikes? Because the last time we saw such a report, it involved one of your amazing generals suiciding a wraithknight by charging a unit that re-rolls to hit/ BS 3 overwatches with 4 lascannons after it had been wounded.
But yeah, amazing generals.

CSM, Orks, BA, DE (I don't think the Coven would beat decurion),

If you have battle reports where your CSM face saim-hann and centstars, I'd love to see it. I can't find one where the CSM win anywhere.

Well... You're pretty much dead wrong about the Haemonculous Coven. I haven't had a game go pst 4 rounds in those matchups. I own a Coven list. Actually thats the same list that ws able to kill my IG blob. Friend of mine is borrowing it. Between the LD nerfs and their assault ability and its speed? Yeah. Just lance open the enemy transports and start butchering. Outflank the Talos to close the deal if the Necron doesnt make the approach too enticing.

You're entirely misquoting me, from a thread that was locked on list tailoring. Again. I suggest veering from that subject. However the CORRECT version of what was said is that someone can be on a forum and tell me Imperial Knights suck because: Wraithguard or that a blob can "easily" be taken out by {fill in perfect unit}. But unless you physically have that in your list...so what? And that ignores the other God knows how many points in the army dedicated to ending the "perfect answer" you've posited in your perfect forum army.

If you take 20 bikes in ONE unit, you get what you deserve though. You'll blitz some units, Tau style, with that. But damn.. I wouldn't do it. That is another whole thread so whatevs. Different strokes.

I beat a Decurion and a super stompy Forge World Tyranid force at the ITC tournament before this. I lost to a Nurgle Deamon list because essentially I just forgot to move a Rhino. In two different turns. ouch, What a way to lose! So that was a bummer, my failing, not the lists failing. But the list performed exactly as it should otherwise. The Decurion was not difficult. Dirge Casters stopped his Overwatch and I spread out like a MOFO to avoid the worst of his enormous blasty weapons from the Tesseract Vault and stayed in combat otherwise to avoid it. Worked well. I morale checked him off the board pretty much. Never killed the Vault. Those things are damn tough and they put out a lot o firepower though.

The Tyranids had this ENORMOUSLY large AP 3 Flamer template (again i despise Forge World so i cant even tell you what it was) on a creature that could move really fast and fire it as torrent! He had these insane Hammer of Wrath rules where his guys do like D3 AP 2 Hammers of Wrath hits (wrecked 9 Raptors just with the Hammers of Wrath in one charge before he swung a damn thing). Rock Crushers or some such.
Anyways, I basically ran from him turn one to avoid that gross template, then swung to the opposing sides and finally engaged. My Heldrake was a boss in that game. He vector struck one of the Hive Tyrant dead at the end, which was pretty sweet, plus weakened stuff all game long. I think he had three of those flying terrors in the sky to start. I have no anti-air. So that was fun. Did beat him anyways though.

I mean we can go on and on. I do actually have batreps on my Blog (including video ones), which is free to view (and its in my signature below). You can kind of see the evolutions the list went through as I developed it., starting last year i think. It had a Defiler originally. Tried a Land Raider. Tried a number of things before finally getting it to this form. I think it now has come to kind of its final mature form for this codex. You can jiggle it a bit still if you wanted to go with a second CAD rather than an Allied Detachment. But it's pretty much in the form you'd want it to be. And there were bumps in the road as i had to adjust to the new 7E realities.


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 jreilly89 wrote:

Ah my mistake. Pronouns still, I'd be interested to see you destroy a Wraithknight and Riptide Turn One.

I dont think anyone locally plays Taudar right now. i could easily find an Eldar player though. Lol. Maybe I will do a batrep for the Blog if i can find someone. Our best local Eldar player is quite good, and he used to play Tau...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Yeah I don't see how that is possible without the exorcist tank. Sisters lack long range anti-mc firepower when you remove the exorcist.

And that is the problem we're having, isn't it? You don't see (yet it happened!) and then if someone tells you, you don't believe. So really... What's happened here is you've decided what works instead of believing what does. If I win 8 out of 11, we call it a good day. But what if I told you it was the first 3 that I lost? Would you have kept trying? Or would you conclude it didn't work? Well if you play three times a week, you hardly are daunted. four times a month? Maybe you give up. It's a matter of perspective, isn't it? What if i took it to a tournament and lost all three games? Would I stop playing it and conclude it doesnt work? Or do i conclude my fellow Generals are as good as advertised? A matter of perspective. But if i did that, I'd be missing out on my next 8 tournament wins in a row!

Ironically, the list has won its last 8 tournament games in a row. if you count NON-torunament games, the list hs an even more impressive record against an even wider array of foes (most of which I have mentoned)

Food for thought. Here's an opportunity to actually see something the Chaos Marine codex does well. I'd be asking how to do it, not whether you should. But that's just me!

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

In fact, you called 20 bikes list tailoring when it was brought up against your IG blob, which suggests...

...You mainly seem to put your nurgle csm against the weaker lists, from the reports we've seen so far.
Do you have a report of your CSM list going against the decurions, centstars, or bikes? Because the last time we saw such a report, it involved one of your amazing generals suiciding a wraithknight by charging a unit that re-rolls to hit/ BS 3 overwatches with 4 lascannons after it had been wounded.
But yeah, amazing generals.

CSM, Orks, BA, DE (I don't think the Coven would beat decurion),

If you have battle reports where your CSM face saim-hann and centstars, I'd love to see it. I can't find one where the CSM win anywhere.

Well... You're pretty much dead wrong about the Haemonculous Coven. I haven't had a game go pst 4 rounds in those matchups. I own a Coven list. Actually thats the same list that ws able to kill my IG blob. Friend of mine is borrowing it. Between the LD nerfs and their assault ability and its speed? Yeah. Just lance open the enemy transports and start butchering. Outflank the Talos to close the deal if the enemy doesnt make the approach too enticing.

What transports are you lancing open? Necrons generally don't take transports, SM take drop pods, Tau generally don't spam transports (maybe 1 or 2), and Eldar tend to take about 2, and can jink the dark lances. None of the power builds spam transports outside of 1 or 2 formations, so I don't see how you are lancing them open and start butchering.
Do you have any other reasons it's good besides "Its beaten me and I run it"? It's certainly not terrible, probably a good option for DE, but it can't beat decurion or most of the power builds you tend to see easily. Wraiths will eat a talos and keep on moving, so I'm not sure who you are outflanking.

 Jancoran wrote:

You're entirely misquoting me, from a thread that was locked on list tailoring. Again. I suggest veering from that subject. However the CORRECT version of what was said is that someone can be on a forum and tell me Imperial Knights suck because: Wraithguard or that a blob can "easily" be taken out by {fill in perfect unit}. But unless you physically have that in your list...so what? And that ignores the other God knows how many points in the army dedicated to ending the "perfect answer" you've posited in your perfect forum army.

No, that's not at all what was said.
You described a blob, and several units were listed that could beat it within 2 turns. These included drop pod marines (30) with launchers, 20 scat bikes, equivalent points in wraiths/flayed ones, and a few wyverns. With the exception of flayed ones, these are all incredibly common units in a competitive meta in each of those armies.
You then claimed the bikes were list building, and that nobody was going to take 40 bikes (despite only 20 being mentioned constantly, and links provided to competitive events where nearly every eldar list included at least 20 bikes).
All of these units were cheaper than your blob, so the enemy army has more points, from a stronger dex than you do.

 Jancoran wrote:

If you take 20 bikes in ONE unit, you get what you deserve though. You'll blitz some units, Tau style, with that. But damn.. I wouldn't do it. That is another whole thread so whatevs. Different strokes.

Probably why nobody suggested taking 20 bikes in one unit. All that was said is 20 bikes, you typically take them in small units (like the list you posted in the same thread).
Its one of the reasons scat bikes would walk all over the dread mob your tournament seemed to struggle with. Each small unit of bikes can remove 2HP pretty reliably without buffs.

 Jancoran wrote:

I beat a Decurion and a super stompy Forge World Tyranid force at the ITC tournament before this. I lost to a Nurgle Deamon list because essentially I just forgot to move a Rhino. In two different turns. ouch, What a way to lose! So that was a bummer, my failing, not the lists failing. But the list performed exactly as it should otherwise. The Decurion was not difficult. Dirge Casters stopped his Overwatch and I spread out like a MOFO to avoid the worst of his enormous blasty weapons from the Tesseract Vault and stayed in combat otherwise to avoid it. Worked well. I morale checked him off the board pretty much. Never killed the Vault. Those things are damn tough and they put out a lot o firepower though.

Do you have a battle report? Because "blasty weapons" is not normal when I think Decurion. Decurion is usually spyders, some destroyers, hordes of warriors and wraiths.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Tyranids had this ENORMOUSLY large Flamer template (again i despise Forge World so i cant even tell you what it was) on a creature that could move really fast and fire it as torrent! He had these insane Hammer of Wrath rules where his guys do like D3 AP 2 Hammers of Wrath hits (wrecked 9 Raptors just with the Hammers of Wrath in one charge before he swung a damn thing). Rock Crushers or some such.
Anyways, I basically ran from him turn one to avoid that gross template, then swung to the opposing sides and finally engaged. My Heldrake was a boss in that game. He vector struck one of the Hive Tyrant dead at the end, which was pretty sweet, plus weakened stuff all game long. I think he had three of those flying terrors in the sky to start. I have no anti-air. So that was fun. Did beat him anyways though.

Again, if it wasn't FMC circus it probably wasn't very good. Tyranids outside of FMC's and a select few other units are just awful. I also play nids, have since 3rd, and still pull them out every now and again. Luckily I was able to convert some of my MC's from the era of the carnifex into FMCs and still do great with them. I'm not interested in your games against sub-par lists, my chaos army does just fine against those.

 Jancoran wrote:

I mean we can go on and on. I do actually have batreps on my Blog (including video ones), which is free to view (and its in my signature below). You can kind of see the evolutions the list went through as I developed it., starting last year i think. It had a Defiler originally. Tried a Land Raider. Tried a number of things before finally getting it to this form. I think it now has come to kind of its final mature form for this codex. You can jiggle it a bit still if you wanted to go with a second CAD rather than an Allied Detachment. But it's pretty much in the form you'd want it to be. And there were bumps in the road as i had to adjust to the new 7E realities.

I went through your blog, and was unable to find any battle report where you faced a decurion, competitive 7E eldar list, censtar SM list with your Night lords.
Do you have a direct link?


Btw, how are you killing a wraithknight and riptide turn 1 with SoB and no excorsists?

EDIT;

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Yeah I don't see how that is possible without the exorcist tank. Sisters lack long range anti-mc firepower when you remove the exorcist.

And that is the problem we're having, isn't it? You don't see (yet it happened!) and then if someone tells you, you don't believe. So really... What's happened here is you've decided what works instead of believing what does.

...yes? This is how logic and science work.
If someone makes a claim, they need to back it up with examples and how it was done, or some math. They can't just walk in and say "Well I did it!" and walk out.
That's how the false reports of cold fusion happened. That's how the anti-vax movement got started. By people just believing things without evidence, because hey, feels good to believe.
And it's not like I'm saying you are flat out wrong.

I'm pointing out why I disagree with you, and laying out various points. I then ask you to back up what you are saying beyond saying "I did it" (via a batrep, or details on what happened against the specific lists everyone playing CSM says they are struggling to beat ).
Just like I asked you how you are blowing up both a riptide and wraithknight without excorsists turn 1. I don't see it, I'd like to know how it's done, so I'm asking you.
The fact you didn't simply answer and instead went off on a rant about belief doesn't really help me at all.

Akiasura wrote:

1. What transports are you lancing open? Necrons generally don't take transports...
2. Probably why nobody suggested taking 20 bikes in one unit.
3. re: Necrons: Do you have a battle report? Because "blasty weapons" is not normal when I think Decurion. Decurion is usually spyders, some destroyers, hordes of warriors and wraiths.
4. Again, if it wasn't FMC circus it probably wasn't very good.
5. I went through your blog, and was unable to find any battle report where you faced a decurion, competitive 7E eldar list, censtar SM list with your Night lords.
Do you have a direct link?
6. Btw, how are you killing a wraithknight and riptide turn 1 with SoB and no excorsists?

1. You were speaking of Coven v Decurion. My answer on this new question you pose: Irrelevant. If there ARE no transports, all the better! If i dont have to get you out of those, I'm good. Fire your destroyers, friend. =) Round two is going to hurt.
2. Yet they did. So saying they didn't? Kinda insane? But again I would encourage you to leave that particular thread alone. It was locked. For good reason.
3. That's nice. Not familiar with the Tessaract Vault, I take it? Look it up. And... of course... he had Destroyers. Lots of those. As you'd expect in a Decurion.
4. So. Ask me if it was. Then post.
5. That would be because i didn't do a batrep against a Decurion. It was however at the last tournament before this one. We got pics if you want em (not the highest quality photos but they get the job done) and my Night Lords win over the Decurion are in fact depicted! Lol. Night Lords powning the decurion link. It was a good time. The overall winner took crazy Imperial Knights stuff. Fluger is fairly well known. He used to be a really competitive Ork player until 6E, went to all the big events, knows Reece at Frontline gaming and so on. Now his family kinda requires he stay at home so we decided to bring the tournament to his house instead of dragging him out of it (he didn't play but he got to run it, which was a goal for him). BTW, gratuitous thanks to Reece for the playmat donation/gift/whatever it was! Those playmats are pretty awesome. EDIT: Also thanks to OFCC for bringing the terrain!
6. Super secret Ecclesiarchy stuff that no one knows about unless they are educated on the subject. =) Not to be snarky, but seriously, if you actually knew the codex, you wouldn't have to ask me that. And not knowing the Codex, you should espouse no opinion as to the viability of nuclear striking a Wraith Knight/Imprial Knight turn one. You may wish to refer however to Pretre's 190 page tactica thread on Dakkadakka for help in understanding them better since your opinion of Exorcists is very clearly not based in actual games played and your opinion that they are monobuild is equally... uh... Not the case...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and: Dominion will nuclear strike them in turn one. And as stated, it will be somewhat longer in the coming if i go second and outflank.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


1. What transports are you lancing open? Necrons generally don't take transports...

2. Probably why nobody suggested taking 20 bikes in one unit.

3. re: Necrons: Do you have a battle report? Because "blasty weapons" is not normal when I think Decurion. Decurion is usually spyders, some destroyers, hordes of warriors and wraiths.

4. Again, if it wasn't FMC circus it probably wasn't very good.

5. I went through your blog, and was unable to find any battle report where you faced a decurion, competitive 7E eldar list, censtar SM list with your Night lords.
Do you have a direct link?

6. Btw, how are you killing a wraithknight and riptide turn 1 with SoB and no excorsists?

Hilarity.

Always a good start.

 Jancoran wrote:

1. You were speaking of Coven v Decurion. My answer on this new question you pose: Irrelevant. If there ARE no transports, all the better! If i dont have to get you out of those, I'm good. Fire your destroyers, friend. =) Round two is going to hurt.

Okay? I'm not sure what you mean by fire the destroyers. Do you mean with darklances or...? Because darklances are terrible against destroyers.
How are you taking out the massive amounts of infantry, and the wraiths?

 Jancoran wrote:

2. Yet they did. So saying they didn't? Kinda insane? But again I would encourage you to leave that particular thread alone. It was locked. For good reason.

No, literally they didn't. Not one person said a squad of 20 bikes. Only 20 bikes, no mention of how many squads, and that it is commonly seen in competitive lists. Competitive lists were linked that included min sized squads as well.
If you got the impression it was one giant squad, that was your own imagination at work.

 Jancoran wrote:

3. That's nice. Not familiar with the Tessaract Vault, I take it? Look it up. And... of course... he had Destroyers. Lots of those. As you'd expect in a Decurion.

The Tessaract vault is good in a traditional necron list, since at that point they take transports and you want to spam AV 13 to protect it, since it's very expensive.
In a decurion it is the only tank on the table and too vulnerable to haywire for its expensive cost.
See how I listed reasons not to take it instead of implying something?

 Jancoran wrote:

4. So. Ask me if it was. Then post.

You originally said it was genestealers. I asked what list it was originally since Tyranids vary in power dramatically depending on the units taken.
You then went on about another game that was, again, not against the competitive tyranid force.
But let's drop it.

 Jancoran wrote:

5. That would be because i didn't do a batrep against a Decurion. It was however at the last tournament before this one. We got pics if you want em (not the highest quality photos but they get the job done) and my Night Lords win over the Decurion are in fact depicted! Lol. Night Lords powning the decurion link. It was a good time. The overall winner took crazy Imperial Knights stuff. Fluger is fairly well known. He used to be a really competitive Ork player until 6E, went to all the big events, knows Reece at Frontline gaming and so on. Now his family kinda requires he stay at home so we decided to bring the tournament to his house instead of dragging him out of it (he didn't play but he got to run it, which was a goal for him). BTW, gratuitous thanks to Reece for the playmat donation/gift/whatever it was! Those playmats are pretty awesome.

The link just takes me to a few photos of what looks like titans facing off against a necron force.

So...just to be clear, you don't have any batreps of your night lords facing off against centstar, competitive 7e eldar, or decurion?
I just want to be clear. I've been asking for a while now and would really like to see it.

 Jancoran wrote:

6. Super secret Ecclesiarchy stuff that no one knows about unless they are educated on the subject. =) Not to be snarky, but seriously, if you actually knew the codex, you wouldn't have to ask me that. And not knowing the Codex, you should espouse no opinion as to the viability of nuclear striking a Wraith Knight/Imprial Knight turn one. You may wish to refer however to Pretre's 190 page tactica thread on Dakkadakka for help in understanding them better since your opinion of Exorcists is very clearly not based in actual games played and your opinion that they are monobuild is equally... uh... Not the case...

See below about your super secret tech and why it won't quite do what you claim.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and: Dominion will nuclear strike them in turn one. And as stated, it will be somewhat longer in the coming if i go second and outflank.

A dominion squad at equivalent points won't kill a riptide though, even if it can get in range (if you get turn one, sure, but go second and the rip tide will just move out of the way with its absurd movement range).
A dominion squad with 5 meltas (4+ combi melta) without an immolator still has to hit (So about 3.5 hits).
Then you have to get through 5++ so now about ~2.5 wounds.
Then it gets FnP, so about 2 wounds.
Congrats, your 1 bolter has to cause 3 wounds.
If you take a max squad of 10, you get 4 bolters to cause 3 wounds on a rip tide.

If you take 2 dominion squads, you can just do it statistically. But you've invested a lot more than the riptide costs, and still haven't touched the wraithknight.

Against a wraith knight, you will cause 3.5 hits with 5 meltas
1.75 wounds against T8
1.15 wounds after 5++, and we can stop here.

So you need quite a few dominion squads to kill just the wraith knight. To kill both you would need to not only go first, but have 5+ Squads for the wraithknight and 2+ squads for the riptide, on average. So...yeah, wow, you showed me that super secret tech of investing 3x the points to kill 2 models and hoping you go first.

Chaos is good at being bad...

Akiasura wrote:


1. Okay? I'm not sure what you mean by fire the destroyers. Do you mean with darklances or...? Because darklances are terrible against destroyers.
How are you taking out the massive amounts of infantry, and the wraiths?
2. In a decurion it is the only tank on the table and too vulnerable to haywire for its expensive cost.
3. You originally said it was genestealers.
4. The link just takes me to a few photos of what looks like titans facing off against a necron force.
5. I just want to be clear. I've been asking for a while now and would really like to see it.
6. A dominion squad at equivalent points won't kill a riptide...
So you need quite a few dominion squads to kill just the wraith knight.

1. Dark Lances wouldn't be firing at all in the scenario you posit'd wherein no transports exist. Why would I?
2. If you say so. Another way to look at it is 4 Hull Points, AV 13 and hellatious firing coming from those platforms with no enemy able to hit the guys inside until they are close, plus movement advantages. I'm more of a Wraith guy myself (My list was three Canoptek Harvests and a CAD or I alternatively used a Warrior list with the Obelisk+Monoliths), but he went with the crazy "never misses" Destroyer army and the heinous unkillable super heavy Thunderblitzing gunship. Whatevs. Look closer at the pics. My army is there. Blue Rhino stands out.
3. I didn't. What I told you in relation to this was that in the tournament before this weekend (and you wonder why I caps lock things) I did fight a Decurion (the army you said I shouldn't be beating)
4. Keep scrolling. This is why I dont bother linking things for you and others. You don't even spend any time on it. Too busy typing your responses.
5. Asked and answered.
6. And this is why you aren't a Sisters of Battle player. You're missing one of the key things this particular build does for its Dominion in your math. Which is fine. It's not a crime not to know this fairly uncommonly played codex like I do. You don't have the experience to speak to their effectiveness, and you think we give a rip how many Dominions it takes to do the job. Let me enlighten you: we don't. The key factoid: The job got done. So you can entertain whatever mental gymnastics over whether its "worth it" in your mind to commit that much to the most powerful and impactful units the enemy has while you have the chance. You could do that. Sure. Or you could come to the realization that they are the most powerful and impactful units they have. In which case, you might come to agree with me that it deserves my full and undivided attention while I have the chance to end it. The rest can wait. We will take heinous counter losses doing this. I've lived it. We will. That sacrifice will never be in vain. It will be followed by a rather unpleasant and sometimes very final blow from the Adepta Sororitas that will leave the rest of the game in no real doubt. Unlike my Night Lords who i eschew bragging about since I'm aware that they require a certain finesse to play and good timing (the very strategy for which they were built), I do openly claim bragging rights for the Adepta Sororitas. You need no "Exorcist monobuilds". You really should avoid that intimation moving forward. This is just one build I have found to be effective. I also have lists that use Adepta Sororitas blobs (which won the most tournaments for me of any army and which I took to GT's, losing one game at each of those events), and I'm proud to say I even won two Tournaments in a row using the White Dwarf...thing they called a codex... that included (literally) one of every unit from the "codex". Try doing that! Yes even the Command Squad, which there were pages upon pages of hate mail for on DakkaDakka. Monobuild? no.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos is good at being bad...

Morally corrupt?

You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

But, my anecdotes!!!

So, just to reiterate, you are unable to link to any such report at all?
Just wanted to be sure.

Love the unwillingness to link a report but happy to write massive paragraphs that don't at all deal with the particulars of the argument.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

"people"? Interesting choice of word.

Oh no. I won't ignore the math. I was quite rapt with attention as I read it actually. You do mean the math wherein he points out that I can do it at extreme cost? Saw that math. I also saw his math is missing a pretty important piece of information (I'll let you dig for that). Once he corrects his math, and says the words "I see my mistake now" I will say more if you like. He's a teacher, so that should not be a difficult thing to say, as he hears it often enough from his students. But as this thread is a Chaos thread...

Trust me. In answer to your mean spirited question, the name of my blog says it all. I am truly aware of how creative my solutions seem to "people" (that nebulous group you refer to, as you seek to appeal to higher authority). I also know the results very personally, whereas you have only this forum to tell you what they were. You are free to decide what you will or won't do, and need no permission from me.

I'm just here to tell you this is one way the cat can, in fact, be skinned. Practice it. Try it. Or don't. Going out and buying 30 Raptors might not be in the budget. Might not even be your style o army. Al those consideerations aside, you at least know it can perform where it matters.

If you own enough, give it a try. Maybe play them for five games, alter them to your strategic method. Might take a few games but I mean... You've read this far. May as well.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Love the unwillingness to link a report but happy to write massive paragraphs that don't at all deal with the particulars of the argument.

What report? I already said there wasn't one that meets his requirements (fighting a Decurion).

EDIT: Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

Alright guys. Let's keep it polite here.

 War Kitten wrote:
Alright guys. Let's keep it polite here.

Kay, Sure.

Found one. This one shows an older version of the army and its facing the 6E Eldar codex. I don't know what you can get from it but sure. Eldar Hull spam was the power build in 6E. This one is unusual because it uses Karandras, who is a beast, but he's fairly uncommon in lists.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/02/battle-report-mechdar-vs-night-lords.html

Again, not the army as it sits now so it really doesnt help but just to be game and show where the list evolved from might be fun for someone. It's what I got for whoever cares. Probably no one.

Heres an even earlier version. Opponents list was far friendlier in this one though. Still, this was how the list was BEFORE the Eldar fight.
:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/night-lordsattack.html

Here's a view of the Coven list i mentioned before and what it does. This was against Plasmavet mech guard type army. Mostly its just there to show the Coven army and why i wouldn't fire Dark Lances at Necrons turn one.

COVEN!

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

"people"? Interesting choice of word.

When more than one person is included, it's called people.
What else would you have called them?

 Jancoran wrote:

Oh no. I won't ignore the math. I was quite rapt with attention as I read it actually. You do mean the math wherein he points out that I can do it at extreme cost? Saw that math.

Well, technically you said dominion and not dominions, so you certainly suggested one squad. I think I showed one squad couldn't do it with a reasonable chance of success
Or did you mean something else?

 Jancoran wrote:

I also saw his math is missing a pretty important piece of information (I'll let you dig for that). Once he corrects his math, and says the words "I see my mistake now" I will say more if you like. He's a teacher, so that should not be a difficult thing to say, as he hears it often enough from his students. But as this thread is a Chaos thread...

Let me start by saying, PLEASE STOP INSULTING ME WITH PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE COMMENTS. If you have something nasty to say, take it to PM.
I am trying to be civil here, and just because you can't be bothered to actually debate or raise any points is no reason to make snide remarks in regards to me being a professor .

Please point out the mistake in the math. I don't believe your AoF matters (it's ignores cover, yes?), BS 4, Str 8, doesn't ignore invuls...I don't see where I made a mistake.

 Jancoran wrote:

Trust me. In answer to your mean spirited question, the name of my blog says it all. I am truly aware of how creative my solutions seem to "people" (that nebulous group you refer to, as you seek to appeal to higher authority). I also know the results very personally, whereas you have only this forum to tell you what they were. You are free to decide what you will or won't do, and need no permission from me.

I'm just here to tell you this is one way the cat can, in fact, be skinned. Practice it. Try it. Or don't. Going out and buying 30 Raptors might not be in the budget. Might not even be your style o army. Al those consideerations aside, you at least know it can perform where it matters.

If you could link to a single battle report of you facing Decurion, 7e Eldar, or competitive SM, I'll try out your strategies. I have to see these strategies to even consider them, since everytime you get asked what you do it is extremely vague.
You say you face them all the time in your meta. You don't have a battle report?

 Jancoran wrote:

If you own enough, give it a try. Maybe play them for five games, alter them to your strategic method. Might take a few games but I mean... You've read this far. May as well.

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 Eldarain wrote:
Love the unwillingness to link a report but happy to write massive paragraphs that don't at all deal with the particulars of the argument.

What report? I already said there wasn't one that meets his requirements (fighting a Decurion).

EDIT: Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

The link is literally some pictures of titans and what I assume to be your army (I have no idea what color your army is) versus necrons. There is no mention of the armies used, the lists, or anything of a report. At the bottom there is a link to house gaming and some mini tournament.
Rest assured, I read the link you gave. But the link wasn't what me or anyone else is asking for, so it was useless.

I am asking for a batrep of your CSM facing competitive SM, Eldar in 7e, or Decurion. You said they were in your meta, you didn't write a report when you faced what is highly regarded as the toughest match ups for the CSM codex?
If you didn't, just say so. But don't make it seem like I won't read it, I already read through the blog (and even commented on particulars in other threads, so clearly I'm willing to read what you link).
I'm not going to go surfing through this site hoping to find a batrep of you. I may not even know it's you, since I have no idea what your army looks like or what your name is.

 Jancoran wrote:
Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

They can't copy your strategies without a full batrep to dissect what makes you win. The arguments are in order to force you to disclose in full easily digestible detail how to make a better CSM army. Best way to get a MtG player to share his secrets is by insulting his deck. You already listed the army itself, now they keep fighting to understand what they are supposed to do with it to win. The ones who already know how to play the game have left the topic after seeing the list, having decided for themselves whether you were right or not long ago. All that remains are those hunting effective strategies. The quest for knowledge leads fanboys to become rabid.

Akiasura wrote:


Well, technically you said dominion and not dominions, so you certainly suggested one squad. I think I showed one squad couldn't do it with a reasonable chance of success
Or did you mean something else?
.

Dominion is plural also.

Here is a sentence to illustrate this point: "The Dominion in the force do well".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura 669194 8254883 wrote:
I am trying to be civil here, .

We disagree on this point. Probably why I have taken the liberty of perhaps needling you too harshly? My apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


If you could link to a single battle report of you facing Decurion... etc...etc... .

I did provide some. They dont meet your criterion. Sorry. Repeating the request mwont make me more able to say yes. And you've asked several times. I have the ones I posted. That's all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

...you didn't write a report when you faced what is highly regarded as the toughest match ups for the CSM codex?
If you didn't, just say so.

I did. Multiple times now. Go back and read the multiple times if you like. There isn't one. I don't write these things for everry game I play! Sheesh. Do you?

Saying it doesn't meet his criterion is a junk excuse on your end. You know damn well what a battle report should encompass.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


Well, technically you said dominion and not dominions, so you certainly suggested one squad. I think I showed one squad couldn't do it with a reasonable chance of success
Or did you mean something else?
.

Dominion is plural also.

Here is a sentence to illustrate this point: "The Dominion in the force do well".

I wasn't aware they gave out the conjugation for these things, and to be honest, I can't say I care much (science professors usually have a negative opinion of philosophy majors and english...anything really, ime). It was a bit tongue in cheek, I'll make sure to include a emoticon for you next time so you don't take it so personally (I saw the unedited version).

Are you going to point out the flaw in the math now?

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura 669194 8254883 wrote:
I am trying to be civil here, .

We disagree on this point. Probably why I have taken the liberty of perhaps needling you too harshly? My apologies.

I haven't insulted you at any point, unless you consider a casual meta an insult. You can't say the same however.
Let's try to be a bit more civil.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


If you could link to a single battle report of you facing Decurion... etc...etc... .

I did provide some. They dont meet your criterion. Sorry. Repeating the request mwont make me more able to say yes. And you've asked several times. I have the ones I posted. That's all.

Okay, I just wanted to clear. You made it seem like it was there but I was incapable of reading it/finding it.

While I appreciate you telling us about some of your other battles (and honestly, your meta sounds a lot more fun than mine) it doesn't really have anything to do with what was originally claimed; CSM need to spam nurgle to be competitive, and even with nurgle spam, can not compete against the top armies and their power builds.

EDIT

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

...you didn't write a report when you faced what is highly regarded as the toughest match ups for the CSM codex?
If you didn't, just say so.

I did. Multiple times now. Go back and read the multiple times if you like. There isn't one. I don't write these things for everry game I play! Sheesh. Do you?

No, but I'm not asking for all your games to be recorded. I asked for a single example against any of the power builds currently in the meta, since you said you faced them in your meta. I also don't use my personal examples as arguments for why a unit is good without detailed examples of what strategies I used and how the math plays out. If you're going to do that, it helps to have a battle report. Otherwise it's just a claim no one can look at.

Since your blog advertises itself as being unorthodox tactics that work, I thought you might have an example of how to take on the power builds people are currently having issues with so we can see what you are doing. If you don't, that's fine, but you'll have to give detailed examples of what strategy you used or show some math that supports you before most of us will believe you.

So, to sum up, Jancoran uses a crap list against poor opponents and claims its competitive. He then says he has proof, but fails to supply any battle reports that actually tell or show anything. He also refuses to say how he manages these amazing feats of crap units killing far superior ones.
Give facts and evidence and maybe people will take you seriously.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saying it doesn't meet his criterion is a junk excuse on your end. You know damn well what a battle report should encompass.

Wait... Haven't you heard? Wins don't prove nuthin'!!! A batrep is just a much longer version of "I won".

Oh man. And you know what else? Batreps are suuuuuuper "anecdotal" too.

I'll be sure to get that batrep done right away though.

 Arkaine wrote:

They can't copy your strategies without a full batrep to dissect what makes you win. The arguments are in order to force you to disclose in full easily digestible detail how to make a better CSM army. Best way to get a MtG player to share his secrets is by insulting his deck. You already listed the army itself, now they keep fighting to understand what they are supposed to do with it to win. The ones who already know how to play the game have left the topic after seeing the list, having decided for themselves whether you were right or not long ago. All that remains are those hunting effective strategies. The quest for knowledge leads fanboys to become rabid.

You mean like this post from page 4 or so? Wherein I explained how it kinda works? Because I did actually post this along with quite a few other comments about its use. Its not as if i didnt take the time.

Heres the post:


Well Im definitely not offering up a "win all the time" promise here. No army can have that so you will suffer defeats no matter what you do.

But here is the Night Lords list I have been slowly marinating into form. this is the final form as it stands now and its pretty optimized for what it attempts to do.

Essentially the Rhinos hve Dirge Casters to stop s much overwatch as they can from things like Dark Angels and Tau Empire. They provide cover if destroyed or immolbilized. i try to jet them up to the 30 inch mark ASAP.

The Raptors bounce behind them, moving and runing to keep up with the Rhinos in round one. Both units are fearless (I learned over the course of time not to leave this to chance) with their respective Chaos Lords. Thoe lords are more than fast enough to keep up obviously.

The other units are MEANT to deep strike, raining in from all angles and making escape impossible, forming my box of doom, so to speak. I have on occassion deployed the Obliterators but the range on MOST of their weapons isn't excellent so I definitely lean more often to deep striking them into position.

The Chaos Marines will often be deployed in reserve to wait for objectives til after the enemy has been tenderized. On occassion i will actually mount them in the rhinos. Objective placement largely determines that for me.

So that is the basic setup.

The Chaos Lord has the Eye of Night. If the enemy has his armor close together, he will pay dearly. Large blast on BS 5. Does D3 penetrating hits (ignores cover) against the targets hit by it. It's a nice way to start the festivities. He also carries the Hand of Darkness. It replaces his attacks with one attack, but that one attack is Instant Death, Armoudbane, fleshbane, STR 8, AP 1 and is generally really really unpleasant. He can frustrate you at times. I had the chance to ill BOTH Dreadknights in a list the other day and he flubbed both rolls over two different combat phases and eventually bit it. I still won 20-5 but that was a bitter pill! Still, most of the time he's hitting on 3's so it works more often than it doesn't.

The second Chaos Lord is just happy to be here. i would generally want him to be my warlord since the other one is bound to be in danger. it's his middle name.

Heldrakes are great against Hive Tyrants (and the like) with their extra cool Vector Strikes and obviously the flamer needs no introduction. With the saturation level generally good, the Heldrake enjoys a bit more of a lifespan than they typically will. It has won some games for me with its ability to hover. that plays pretty big in a list like this where so much of your list is upfield that the backfield Chaos Marines need a little help sometimes on objectives when they come in.

Anywho Night Lords isn't one of the most powerful builds in 40K, but it does work. Its main struggle comes against AV 14, ince it isnt a melta fest like so may lists. It has some but its not prolific so we do al or most of our damage in the close combat phase. That actually works just fine. But its worth noting that a unit of 3 Space Marine Dreadnoughts is going to challenge us. I fought a guy with 9, plus two land Raiders and it was tough to get close (so i didnt). I ended the game killing one tactical marine (which sent his unit flying off the board to be fair from my Mutilator) but that was it. Yet i still tied the game and should have won (Needed just one hull point off the Land Raider, nd couldnt get it despite never losing my Obliterators). A little bad luck and a lot of good planning put me in good position even in that matchup.

So speed and maneuverability are the keys for this force. It can scatter from threats it needs to get more time against and it can bull rush those it can handle. it traps the enemy "over yonder" and doesnt let them out of our box, which makes objectives happen.


Night Lords Total Roster Cost: 1996

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

75pts 4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

75pts 4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

80pts 4 Chaos Space Marines [Black Legion] (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War)
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

130pts 1 Chaos Lord (Nurgle, Jump Pack, Sigil of Corruption, Powerfist+ Combi Melta)

285pts 1 Chaos Lord (HQ) [Black Legion], 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades+ Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun+ Veterans of the Long War) + Chaos Bike + 1 The Eye of Night + The Hand of Darkness

330pts 13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle) + Meltagun x2
1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs + Mark of Nurgle + Power Axe x1)

330pts 13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle) + Meltagun x2
1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs + Mark of Nurgle + Power Axe x1)

170pts 1 Heldrake

I can't believe this argument is still going on. Why do people even entertain this? Dude says that Chaos is a competetive army that can win major tourneys.... Proceeds to post a list with 3 units of Mutilators, one of the worst units in the book. He's obviously trolling or making stuff up. Next thing you know he will post his list where he spams Warp Talons and Thousand Sons.

I have about 50k points worth of Chaos models... I've played Just about every possible combo in a CSM army. Is it possible to win with? Absolutely. You are at a MAJOR disadvantage in the major tourneys though. Playing with CSM is playing on hard mode.
What does CSM do good? Well, for me, it taught me to really learn the rules and concentrate on tactics.... Even if you play a perfect game with CSM, against the top tier armies, chances are you will lose. You just can't bring the bodies or the firepower of the top tier armies. If you bring some Forgeworld, you have a much better chance, but you're still at a disadvantage.

Single mutilators have a place in an army with multiple deep strikers that's ran out of heavy slots. Not saying its mathematically winningest, nor other units can't do a similar niche though. Lets not go into that tangent?

Mutilators are an Elite slot

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

They can't copy your strategies without a full batrep to dissect what makes you win. The arguments are in order to force you to disclose in full easily digestible detail how to make a better CSM army. Best way to get a MtG player to share his secrets is by insulting his deck. You already listed the army itself, now they keep fighting to understand what they are supposed to do with it to win. The ones who already know how to play the game have left the topic after seeing the list, having decided for themselves whether you were right or not long ago. All that remains are those hunting effective strategies. The quest for knowledge leads fanboys to become rabid.

Can't tell if this is sarcasm or straw-manning to the extreme

As always it's interesting to see what people will argue about on the internet, so minor nitpick here, but assuming that the Sisters of Battle Dominions are named after the Angelic Choir (not unreasonable, I think, given their ostensibly religious flavouring and the fact that they also have a unit called "Seraphim") Dominions in that case are usually pluralized with an "s", to the best of my knowledge, as in "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

Anyway...

I'll conclude by asking - why is this argument still going on? If Jancoran is massacring every opponent he comes across with a super mega awesome Night Lords army of doom more power to him. The fact remains that the Chaos Space Marines codex is presently both one of the oldest and least effective books currently available, and one player having success with it is not really indicative of the opposite. It would be equally ludicrous to suggest that the Eldar are underpowered and in desperate need of a buff because there's one player on the internet who claims to be doing very poorly with them.

 godardc wrote:
I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

this....also as a long time csm geneal I can also attest to beating numerous power lists because of band wagon jumping generals. you know, TFG who jumps from net list to net list, army to army looking for tne "i win" button instead of becoming proficient with an army. knowing your own armies strengths/weaknesses and identifying proper target priority can go a long way in any meta.

 quickfuze wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

this....also as a long time csm geneal I can also attest to beating numerous power lists because of band wagon jumping generals. you know, TFG who jumps from net list to net list, army to army looking for tne "i win" button instead of becoming proficient with an army. knowing your own armies strengths/weaknesses and identifying proper target priority can go a long way in any meta.

It's not about him winning against others, it's the ludicrous claims he makes. Is it possible to win with CSM? Sure. Saying you're going to beat every Eldar cheese list out there with your less than efficient list is dubious.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
He's obviously trolling or making stuff up.

Be careful when you say that, mods are giving out bans for calling Jancoran a troll these days.

Those lone Mutilators functioned a lot like Lictors in that battle report vs 6th Ed Mechdar. Cool to see!

I don't give a rat's fart about how well, if at all, CSM's can compete in the top end "Tournament" optimisation style of game play... Personally it's not my cup of tea.

Can Chaos Marines cope with the most rank levels of supreme gouda? Not at all. We're over 3 years behind the times, with a play style & options that are still stuck in 3rd/early 4th edition. Without extreme luck, bad play by opponents, highly favourable missions & house/comp rules, Chaos in general just isn't at the same level as the new Decurion/Gladius/Hunter Cadre levels of madness.
Daemons can still pull their own, if you enjoy being heavily restrictive in your lists building. IA:13 helps the Mortal cause some. Khornekin has the Gorepack & army-wide FnP and can pull some tricks with MSU shenanigans.

Overall though, Chaos on the whole is in a crap spot of having the fewest toys nowadays when compared to everyone else.

I still have plenty of options with my Daemons in general sure, but that's where it really ends...
Getting the Forgeworld stuff shipped to Canada is ludicrously expensive. Chaos Marines haven't seen a single new weapon upgrade option in over 15 fething years! They're the blandest, most stale army going. (outside of Sisters - yet even they've had more upgrade options than Chaos Marines have had!!)
We still don't have proper options for Radical Inquisitors and Traitor Guardsmen.

I just want to see Chaos Marines get some new toys... Heavy/Hand flamers, our own unique Grav equivalents, more heavy weapon options in general, new Termie heavy weapon(s), some new choppy tools such as Eviscerators, 'Unholy' Relic blade equivalents, etc...
Alongside our own Rhino AND unique Land Raider varients, as well as some added polish to our daemon engines.

It really feels like what we're honestly "best" at right now, is being the oldest & crappiest model line available! I want to see us brought out of 2001 and into 2015/16 dammit!!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Those lone Mutilators functioned a lot like Lictors in that battle report vs 6th Ed Mechdar. Cool to see!

The lictors existed as 50 point Locator Beacons for Mawlocs, which pulled the weight of the list with the Flyrants.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Is it possible to win with? Absolutely. .

Which is what I have been saying. Others have expanded what Im saying to be a lot more grandiose but as you see in this post, I dont make wild claims or primacy. I simply said what you just said.

Lol.

All the rest was just explanation and defense of that point.

 jreilly89 wrote:


I
Is it possible to win with CSM? Sure.

Exactly. All these "ludicrous claims" are just me telling you what has happened. I have not engaged in any hyperbole. I just told you that you can win.


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Yoyoyo wrote:
Those lone Mutilators functioned a lot like Lictors in that battle report vs 6th Ed Mechdar. Cool to see!

They surprise me with how useful they turned out to be. they are a necessary ingredient for this list becaue a second cad would tax me another Chaos Marine squad

It is entirely possible to win any game with a single marine, how possible you ask? Well in an 1850 game against a top tier army I would say it is less than .1%.

The whole argument is irrelevant, I've beaten decurion lists that are competitive with my Chaos army.

How many attempts did it take to finally win? Approximately 8 games...

I think the issue really is that in order for the game to even have a hope of being called balanced, you should have no less than a 25% chance of winning assuming average rolls being used regardless or Army composition.

What we are seeing is not even close to that.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Mutilators are an Elite slot

I'm confused by this post. It's so self obvious I feel I must be missing something?

 Konrax wrote:
It is entirely possible to win any game with a single marine, how possible you ask? Well in an 1850 game against a top tier army I would say it is less than .1%.

The whole argument is irrelevant, I've beaten decurion lists that are competitive with my Chaos army.

How many attempts did it take to finally win? Approximately 8 games...

I think the issue really is that in order for the game to even have a hope of being called balanced, you should have no less than a 25% chance of winning assuming average rolls being used regardless or Army composition.

What we are seeing is not even close to that.

The only way I had won games is list tailoring. Which was encouraged by friends I play with due to the lack of updates. They are currently playing Dark Angles, Necrons, Tau and Eldar. I won two games out of an entire weekend of gaming we had recently and even then it was but the skin of my teeth and a SUPER lucky soul blaze roll that took off the last HP for a Slay the warlord and capping a objective. Tzeentch blessed me that day.

From Friday to Sunday night I played around 12 games. The rest of the games were a joke.

You should at least have a reasonable chance at winning a game against an equally competitive build.

I dislike list tailoring but my group usually self caps the cheese unless we are having a power cheese game.

CSM is hardmode if you go pure.

There are a few gems in the codex, even under rated ones like deep striking lone mutilators, but they aren't enough to carry the codex to victory.

Yea- my bad. I realize now what you were saying... I misread it , thought you were saying it was good to fill in a HS slot.


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nareik wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Mutilators are an Elite slot

I'm confused by this post. It's so self obvious I feel I must be missing something?

Misread what you were saying- my bad

 Vash108 wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
It is entirely possible to win any game with a single marine, how possible you ask? Well in an 1850 game against a top tier army I would say it is less than .1%.

The whole argument is irrelevant, I've beaten decurion lists that are competitive with my Chaos army.

How many attempts did it take to finally win? Approximately 8 games...

I think the issue really is that in order for the game to even have a hope of being called balanced, you should have no less than a 25% chance of winning assuming average rolls being used regardless or Army composition.

What we are seeing is not even close to that.

The only way I had won games is list tailoring. Which was encouraged by friends I play with due to the lack of updates. They are currently playing Dark Angles, Necrons, Tau and Eldar. I won two games out of an entire weekend of gaming we had recently and even then it was but the skin of my teeth and a SUPER lucky soul blaze roll that took off the last HP for a Slay the warlord and capping a objective. Tzeentch blessed me that day.

From Friday to Sunday night I played around 12 games. The rest of the games were a joke.

Unfortunate. Sounds like a change of strategy might help. You play Tzeentch, which I know is a real low model count, so it can be a tougher matchup. Do you have your list? I am curious to see it since there are sooooo few Thousand Sons players.

Oh yea, they would be terrible to fill HS with. Not bad for a cheap distraction unit that can potentially hurt anything though.

Cheapest way for CSM to man a gun emplacement with BS4 too :p.

 Konrax wrote:


There are a few gems in the codex, even under rated ones like deep striking lone mutilators, but they aren't enough to carry the codex to victory.

Good thing they aren't alone!






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nareik wrote:
Oh yea, they would be terrible to fill HS with. Not bad for a cheap distraction unit that can potentially hurt anything though.

Cheapest way for CSM to man a gun emplacement with BS4 too :p.

Hilarious. Hadn't thought of it (Probably because i rarely if ever have the gun emplacement) but that is true!

See ive also.had some weird experiances with csm. Ibe noticed if i go pure Nurgle i lose alot more than when i go undivided lulz

@Jancoran: is there a way to get Cursed Earth into your Night Lords list? You've got so many Daemon and DS'ing units I wonder if it might come in handy. Meanwhile you've already got a threat overload theme going on, so at worst the Summoning primaris will pull fire off the Oblits and Mutilators.

Your list really looks a lot like Lictorshame, in terms of dangerous single-models with good deployment options, and unappetizing Obsec. You can't replicate the Flyrants, though the Eye of Night Chaos Lord and Heldrakes are kind of close to Mawlocs. Or maybe I have an active imagination but whatever.

I'm trying to brainstorm: in the CS supplement you could get a Malefic Sorc with Prophet of the Voices, an Obsec Possessed Retinue, and an extra Mutilator and Oblit to saturate the field with. That means you've now got mobility + exposure issues to solve with the Possessed. So maybe a Bastion with Comms and an Escape Hatch? Maybe summon a Herald with the Grimoire, if you generate Sacrifice?

You'd have to swap out the PF Lord, the Raptor squad and CSM squad and Rhino. In return you get the Prophet Sorc, 10x Obsec Possessed, an Oblit, a Mutilator, and a Bastion with Comms and the Hatch. I'm not sure if this is actually viable, as the Possessed random table and Psychic generation will probably undermine planning. But hey maybe there's some ideas you can use. I mean, Lictorshame started out as epic trolling and won LVO. So maybe even though 4x Mutilators, 4x Oblits and 10x Possessed looks ridiculous and terrible, you can get some cool ideas working that nobody else has thought of yet. And if it's got any potential you can work in heavy hitters like Be'lakor and Fateweaver, I don't think that's going against your creative ethic. Just some thoughts away from the usual drama.

You do have an active imagination because I told you what the Lictors actually did in that Tyranid list...

Yoyoyo wrote:
@Jancoran: is there a way to get Cursed Earth into your Night Lords list? You've got so many Daemon and DS'ing units I wonder if it might come in handy. Meanwhile you've already got a threat overload theme going on, so at worst the Summoning primaris will pull fire off the Oblits and Mutilators.

Your list really looks a lot like Lictorshame, in terms of dangerous single-models with good deployment options, and unappetizing Obsec. You can't replicate the Flyrants, though the Eye of Night Chaos Lord and Heldrakes are kind of close to Mawlocs. Or maybe I have an active imagination but whatever.

I'm trying to brainstorm: in the CS supplement you could get a Malefic Sorc with Prophet of the Voices, an Obsec Possessed Retinue, and an extra Mutilator and Oblit to saturate the field with. That means you've now got mobility + exposure issues to solve with the Possessed. So maybe a Bastion with Comms and an Escape Hatch? Maybe summon a Herald with the Grimoire, if you generate Sacrifice?

You'd have to swap out the PF Lord, the Raptor squad and CSM squad and Rhino. In return you get the Prophet Sorc, 10x Obsec Possessed, an Oblit, a Mutilator, and a Bastion with Comms and the Hatch. I'm not sure if this is actually viable, as the Possessed random table and Psychic generation will probably undermine planning. But hey maybe there's some ideas you can use. I mean, Lictorshame started out as epic trolling and won LVO. So maybe even though 4x Mutilators, 4x Oblits and 10x Possessed looks ridiculous and terrible, you can get some cool ideas working that nobody else has thought of yet. And if it's got any potential you can work in heavy hitters like Be'lakor and Fateweaver, I don't think that's going against your creative ethic. Just some thoughts away from the usual drama.

Very constructive and you brought up something I had not seen before there in the Cursed Earth Department.

Lictorshame is an extremely analogous army build really. The similarities are in its strategy but it also does indeed look a bit like mine in makeup. Hadn't considered that connction but you're not wrong. And it did indeed win LVO. The form isn't the same even though the function is.

Why a full 10 Possessed? Are you doing that because they are Daemons also and would become hard to kill with Cursed Earth? I can see why that would be attractive. Getting them into position migh have been at a fairly steep cost to the list though right? I mean what you're proposing is pretty interesting. I know it would not be a Night Lords army of course at this point, but an entirely different army build. Nonetheless, if it's effective, who cares.

I'll have to ponder that. What is its answer to a Wraith Knight? Wraith Knights can be defeated in two ways. First the ycan be given no target and then swamped with Fearless stuff after the game is too far advanced for it to kill them all and still matter on objectives. the second is to actually kill it (der). Either way neuters its effect to one unit potetnially. How does this list of yurs propose to do that? The speed of the army would not be as great, obviously so getting away from the faster enemies or getting to them is an issue.


anywho, interesting ideas.

The GW logo now has a Chaos star in it. C... Could this be? Are the dark god about to bless us?

 Vash108 wrote:
The GW logo now has a Chaos star in it. C... Could this be? Are the dark god about to bless us?

http://natfka.blogspot.fi/2015/11/tzeentch-makes-his-presence-known.html

Its the 30K Horus Heresy set they put out. They are promoting that I imagine.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its the 30K Horus Heresy set they put out. They are promoting that I imagine.

It's more in in the AoS style, and we have the brand new Archaon model coming just in time for the Xmas rush.



Nothing to see here. GW doesn't give a rat's fart about us. Expect Tyranids, and I'm willing to bet Guard before we potentially get anything.

To be fair, Tyranids need fixing to. Outside Flyrants, Mawlocs, and Zoans, I have no reason to take anything. It's pretty lame.

Whether CSM's the fix more is up for debate. I think a lot of the core issues with CSM's are harder to fix than the Tyranid issues.

Guard need an update just as bad as CSM. Both of us have been mostly ignored by Gee-dubs in favor of Marines and Eldar and the other 7.5 factions. Our time will come.

"ignored" is a rather unfair thing to say. The Codex's have come out at an absolutely record pace! Frankly I'm in shock over how much has come so fast and there are a lot of armies to do, so... I have to kind of give GW a little bit of a pass in this regard.

I think by ignored they mean more the differences in the codexes. The new CSM and IG codexes were very subpar (as was the dark eldar codex) even at their release.

Before, CSM was nurgle build with DP and oblits being other standard units.
After, CSM is now nurgle build, with a few more HQs and a flyer being taken.

Not a lot changed, especially for the better. We are still stuck without legion rules, shoe horned into a nurgle build (Slaanesh is okay, but not nearly as good) and the same units still are awful and have been awful for...a really long time. Since 4th I'd imagine.

The IG codex, outside of a few units, are worse. They lost a lot of special characters and a few power units got toned down. In return they got a few good tanks that don't address the power units in other dexes and not a whole lot else.

Compare that to the eldar dex.
WS were slightly toned down.
Wraith guard are amazing.
Wraith knight is amazing.
Aspect warriors are, for the most part, really good and stand up to other options in other dexes. Eldar have been craving this since 3rd.
Saim-hann is now viable.
Seer council is still very strong, and psykers are really good.

Really, the only craftworld that suffered was Aliatoic, and it was more of a sideways move than any kind of nerf. Biel-tan, Ulthwe, Saim-Hann, and Iyanden are very competitive and can go up against any other codex.


There certainly seems to be a very big difference in how CSM, IG, Nids, and DE get treated in new dexes when compared to Eldar, SM, Space Wolves, and Tau. The former are usually really worried while the latter are usually very excited. I say this as someone who owns armies on both sides of the fence.

I give them a pass too when it comes to the 7.5 codices, but only to an extent. C'Tan still aren't worth much and anything a Monolith or bigger is slightly too expensive, Terminators and Tactical Marines aren't worth taking (and the latter are only taken because free Vehicles potentially), and Eldar function better under CAD since Bikes are just too good, Wraithknights are about 100 points under costed, Azrael sucks...

There's still more that could be done, including updating the early 7th codices. Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are called Codex: Taxi Services for a reason.

I probably could have worded my statement better. What I meant was something along the lines of what Akiasura said. I own both a Guard army, and the beginnings of an Eldar army, so I can agree with what he said.

 War Kitten wrote:
I probably could have worded my statement better. What I meant was something along the lines of what Akiasura said. I own both a Guard army, and the beginnings of an Eldar army, so I can agree with what he said.

revisionist history aside, the realiy is they were fine when they dropped. The problem was... 6th Edition dropped GW stock to almost in half, within about a year (roughly). THATS how big a deal it was. HATS how big a mistake it was and so they very quickly had to start developing 7. All the Codex's that got rapid fire released, sadly, anticipated 6E being around a lot longer. So This was just the nature of the beast. 6E's fall made some codex's have to work a little harder, but I just think it uunfair to say that the codex itself was the problem or that GW ws in some way sndbagging it when they did those codex's. I just find that insinuation kind of unfair.

What is true is that there are things they do now need to adjust. Chaos Psyker powers, the Dark Eldar Wyches, the Rough Riders (Make them Power lances for feths sake and give the horsies a +2 init,,,ta da!). I dunno. There's "stuff" they can improve, but there's only so much time in the day. Give 'em a chance and see what they come up with and then throw a fit, but i think they've been diligent enough in trying that we should give them some props for it.

I will gladly give GW props for some things. And the revisionist thing is something I'm not proud of. I'll just wait and see what they do I suppose.

Overall, I do like the speed of the releases. In fantasy, it took decades for some armies to get releases (looking at you Bretts).

That being said, a lot of codexes at release were terrible. The Tyranid dex has been accepted poorly at release for two editions now. There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers). Most of the nid dex is bad, with a few units that are OP and make the dex playable in a tournament setting. As a nid player, I get nervous whenever I hear we are getting a new dex. The rage when it was revealed cruddance would be working on it was venomous and widespread. Viable units seem to be shrinking for a while now for the nids. The MC spam dex was probably the best, since it offered a lot of customization and most of the units were good (Even if genestealers just delivered the brood lord).

The CSM and DE are in similar boats. Their last few dexes have been received poorly, as many trash units that people like are still trash. 1k sons players have been suffering for a very long time now, despite the fact psykers are pretty good now and an army that spams them should have some options. The Chaos lores being pretty terrible is weird. New ways to play are few and far inbetween (CSM gained psykers, but aren't very good at it since they lack div, despite you know... 1k sons). Many special characters have been removed from DE without anything being added. Wyches are awful now, and at least they had one use last dex. IG's last codex went over very poorly as well, and not only from the name change.

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters and rules that are fluffy and useful. The Eldar list exploded in terms of viable units. Tau seem to have gotten a few good things, but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).


I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, or even if GW needs saving. I know, financially, 6th tanked really hard while 5th did just fine. I'm not sure why they would ramp up many of the aspects of 6th that were unpopular and roll them into 7th instead of just fixing a few of the issues 5th had (wound allocation and tanks being the biggest offenders, outside of some codex balance). But 7th has been kind and harsh to different codexes...just like all the other editions.

 Jancoran wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I probably could have worded my statement better. What I meant was something along the lines of what Akiasura said. I own both a Guard army, and the beginnings of an Eldar army, so I can agree with what he said.

revisionist history aside, the realiy is they were fine when they dropped. The problem was... 6th Edition dropped GW stock to almost in half, within about a year (roughly). THATS how big a deal it was. HATS how big a mistake it was and so they very quickly had to start developing 7. All the Codex's that got rapid fire released, sadly, anticipated 6E being around a lot longer. So This was just the nature of the beast. 6E's fall made some codex's have to work a little harder, but I just think it uunfair to say that the codex itself was the problem or that GW ws in some way sndbagging it when they did those codex's. I just find that insinuation kind of unfair.

What is true is that there are things they do now need to adjust. Chaos Psyker powers, the Dark Eldar Wyches, the Rough Riders (Make them Power lances for feths sake and give the horsies a +2 init,,,ta da!). I dunno. There's "stuff" they can improve, but there's only so much time in the day. Give 'em a chance and see what they come up with and then throw a fit, but i think they've been diligent enough in trying that we should give them some props for it.

You want Rough Riders that don't suck? Go to Forge World and use the Krieg ones as they're reasonable and...

Oh wait nevermind Forge World is an abomination.

GW seemingly comes across as not giving a rat's fart about Chaos more so in how they've consistently ignored our entire model line... Leaving Sisters aside for now, (as they are the true red-headed step-devil-child), only Chaos players get shafted when it comes to the timely updating of our model line.

- Our entire line is still firmly rooted in 3rd edition. Loyalists got plastic Assault Marines in 2000 - we waited until ****ing 2012 for the same!
- Loyalists get Razorbacks and 5!! varients of Land Raiders - we get only Rhinos and the worst Land Raider in the entire game.
- Loyalists get 6!! different Terminator kits to play around with. Ours can't even build a playable squad and is missing half it's basic options... Not to mention that our heavy weapon upgrades are laughable to say the least.
- Loyalists have had [b]TWO[/b[ ****ing plastic Devastator kits! We have crappy fineco$t garbage that again, is an unplayable mess.
- Our only Cult kit is ancient and looks goofy as all feth. The rest of our Cult units are just ancient upgrade packs.
- Loyalists have routinely seen their armoury grow and grow. Ours has stayed exactly the same, except for ever-changing daemon weapons, and the great gutting of everything flavourful in 4th edition.
- Loyalists have plastic kits for every possible unit they can take. We're still missing basic kits for Cultists and Chosen.

After years of being so callously ignored by GW, we absolutely deserve nothing less than a DE styled re-boot.

Akiasura wrote:

There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers).

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters ...but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).

I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, o.

Games Workshop is more than fine. For the moment. They took a huge hit and will keep doing so on Fantasy. However their 40K line has saved them.

Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments. So I disagree there. The Tyranid codex as a whole was a bit surprising in how mild it was, though i dont feel it left it unable to compete (since some really value "big tournament" outcomes and we know it has done that). It just Reeeeeealy has to have three Flyrants if you dont Lictorshame someone. I am sad to say that Tyranids got boxed in to NidZilla. Having said that, they aren't so bad at it once they have their Flyrants. There's a guy here on Dakkadakka that plays the clock really well with his and wins a lot so it can play but... I really think Tyranid players are owed a little for their loyalty at this stage. Lol. I know I haven't been beaten by the Tyranids in quite a long time, not since the new codex came. The closest call was a Triple Flyrant list and it took me to the wire, because that Psychic Scream variant they have can do some serious and sudden damage to you when it rolls well and sometimes it DOES roll well. There's other reasons too: they have an interesting Null deployment they can do which keeps them in games surprisingly well. That build has also done well because it allows the Tyranid to absolutely massacre a given sector of the board that it wants to, instead of having to take the attrition battle from the word go. So yeah I've seen innovative Generals doing good things with them.

Tyranids won the 2014 Elvensword Ambssadorial Tournament not so far removed from the releae of the most recent codex. So there's that also.

I don't care that Space Marines got {fill in the blanks} first. Necrons and Eldar did before that and everyone is getting similar things now so like i said: Just a matter of time. Don't let envy getcha down. Company Support Rule is really dumb. fortunately its easy to exclude them from tournament play. But I saw one played at a prep tournament I ran in September, where i allowed it. It got completely wrecked in its second game and eked out a tie in the third. Turns out, moving that much armor isnt as easy in reality as it looks on paper. =) And if kill points are an issue, as they were in the "Total War " Scenario I ran (which the players knew beforehand was a mission) well...

Kroot? Sigh. Once they couldn't charge from outflank, it kinda ended that fun. Great unit til then. They did however improve it again, allowing Krootox to join the Kroot so I abuse that. Step 1: show up on the enemy's long board edge (yes, you actually can!). Step 2: fire Markerlights. Step 3: Fire STR 7 guns into rear armor. Step 4: Dodge Shrapnel. Hehehe. That trick never gets old. Nor less jarring to an unsuspecting enemy. They be like "Wait..whuuut?"

So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want Rough Riders that don't suck? Go to Forge World and use the Krieg ones as they're reasonable and...

Oh wait nevermind Forge World is an abomination.

See? You're learning. Put good things like that IN the codex and stop exthorting players to buy at Forge World prices!

Except that the FW prices aren't really all that different from the GW prices anymore...you don't have to use FW models for Rough Riders, and the FW Vraks book gets you two different army lists for *significantly* less than the cost of two codex books...

 Jancoran wrote:


Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments.

Yes, they had some Lictors, the list also had 3 Flyrants and a trio of Mawlocs. It had the same meat and potatoes as every other strong Tryanid list, just slightly different frills. Having a handful of slightly unorthodox models that compose a small proportion of the entire army doesn't mean the army is in a really functional place.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, they had some Lictors, the list also had 3 Flyrants and a trio of Mawlocs. It had the same meat and potatoes as every other strong Tryanid list, just slightly different frills. Having a handful of slightly unorthodox models that compose a small proportion of the entire army doesn't mean the army is in a really functional place.

Lol. It actually DOES mean that. Because it actually functions and wins. So it literally actually does mean that.

So now... Not only do normal games not matter (because they're not tournaments)...Not only do RTT's not matter to you (because theyre not bigger tournaments) but now the LVO and Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament doesn't matter (because...um... Creative Generals proving again that codex's don't win and lose your game for you?)

Um...

Back to Chaos Space Marine talk!

 Jancoran wrote:


So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.

I've heard that before. The problem isn't that the dexes will get updated, its if GW will keep the same design philosophy long enough to keep the dexes on roughly equal footing. Before the new Necron Dex came out, everyone said GW was moving towards balanced codecies.

Ha ha!
That didn't really turn out well.
So, no. A new dex by itself doesn't necessarily fix anything.
(Especially when the Nid dex was declared crap from the beginning. Crap being "mono-build" in this case.

Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

Because they fail with codex balance more than succeed? Ignore past behavior if you like.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, they had some Lictors, the list also had 3 Flyrants and a trio of Mawlocs. It had the same meat and potatoes as every other strong Tryanid list, just slightly different frills. Having a handful of slightly unorthodox models that compose a small proportion of the entire army doesn't mean the army is in a really functional place.

Lol. It actually DOES mean that. Because it actually functions and wins. So it literally actually does mean that.

No, it means that you have one combination of things that works, and everything else is there as occasional filling.

So now... Not only do normal games not matter (because they're not tournaments)...Not only do RTT's not matter to you (because theyre not bigger tournaments) but now the LVO and Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament doesn't matter (because...um... Creative Generals proving again that codex's don't win and lose your game for you?)

Um...

Back to Chaos Space Marine talk!

The point was that the army you were referencing wasn't anything substantially different from normal Tyranid tournament builds, it swapped out some of the frills, but didn't really break the mono-build problem, they're all still built around that basic core of multiple Flyrants. The only reason anyone remembers it is simply because it included Lictors, but otherwise was just another flyrant-spam army. The army is critically reliant on spamming Flyrants, and usually minimizing investments in things like troops.

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

GW's got a rather proven track record of borking up certain armies for many years. Complaints about CSM functionality and thematic elements have been strong and consistent for almost a decade now. Tyranids have had issues with many units, consistently, since 4E. There's a pretty demonstrable pattern going here.

I'm going to repeat myself for the last time:

Lictors are fething garbage, and were used as 50 point Locator Beacons for the Mawlocs, which actually did damage with the Flyrants. It doesn't make Lictors good.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

GW's got a rather proven track record of borking up certain armies for many years. Complaints about CSM functionality and thematic elements have been strong and consistent for almost a decade now. Tyranids have had issues with many units, consistently, since 4E. There's a pretty demonstrable pattern going here.

Nah, facts and evidence don't matter. Everything is purely conjecture.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

Because they fail with codex balance more than succeed? Ignore past behavior if you like.

I'm actually not unhappy with most of their past work. Could I make suggestions for changes on any one of them? Sure. Always.

So there's not much to ignore. My worst reaction was to 5E Blood Angels and that wasn't because they made it suck. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers).

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters ...but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).

I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, o.

Games Workshop is more than fine. For the moment. They took a huge hit and will keep doing so on Fantasy. However their 40K line has saved them.

Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments. So I disagree there. The Tyranid codex as a whole was a bit surprising in how mild it was, though i dont feel it left it unable to compete (since some really value "big tournament" outcomes and we know it has done that). It just Reeeeeealy has to have three Flyrants if you dont Lictorshame someone. I am sad to say that Tyranids got boxed in to NidZilla. Having said that, they aren't so bad at it once they have their Flyrants. There's a guy here on Dakkadakka that plays the clock really well with his and wins a lot so it can play but... I really think Tyranid players are owed a little for their loyalty at this stage. Lol. I know I haven't been beaten by the Tyranids in quite a long time, not since the new codex came. The closest call was a Triple Flyrant list and it took me to the wire, because that Psychic Scream variant they have can do some serious and sudden damage to you when it rolls well and sometimes it DOES roll well. There's other reasons too: they have an interesting Null deployment they can do which keeps them in games surprisingly well. That build has also done well because it allows the Tyranid to absolutely massacre a given sector of the board that it wants to, instead of having to take the attrition battle from the word go. So yeah I've seen innovative Generals doing good things with them.

Tyranids won the 2014 Elvensword Ambssadorial Tournament not so far removed from the releae of the most recent codex. So there's that also.

I don't care that Space Marines got {fill in the blanks} first. Necrons and Eldar did before that and everyone is getting similar things now so like i said: Just a matter of time. Don't let envy getcha down. Company Support Rule is really dumb. fortunately its easy to exclude them from tournament play. But I saw one played at a prep tournament I ran in September, where i allowed it. It got completely wrecked in its second game and eked out a tie in the third. Turns out, moving that much armor isnt as easy in reality as it looks on paper. =) And if kill points are an issue, as they were in the "Total War " Scenario I ran (which the players knew beforehand was a mission) well...

Kroot? Sigh. Once they couldn't charge from outflank, it kinda ended that fun. Great unit til then. They did however improve it again, allowing Krootox to join the Kroot so I abuse that. Step 1: show up on the enemy's long board edge (yes, you actually can!). Step 2: fire Markerlights. Step 3: Fire STR 7 guns into rear armor. Step 4: Dodge Shrapnel. Hehehe. That trick never gets old. Nor less jarring to an unsuspecting enemy. They be like "Wait..whuuut?"

So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want Rough Riders that don't suck? Go to Forge World and use the Krieg ones as they're reasonable and...

Oh wait nevermind Forge World is an abomination.

See? You're learning. Put good things like that IN the codex and stop exthorting players to buy at Forge World prices!

Except what else would we use to differentiate the Krieg riders? That has nothing to do with extorting players, especially when:
1. You can use the regular Riders for the models just fine
2. FW prices aren't crazy anyway. A Spartan, a bigger model than a standard Land Raider, is probably $110 compared to a $75 Land Raider. An Achilles is probably $10 more. Quit saying FW gouges people. It DOESN'T.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm going to repeat myself for the last time... bla bla

I was ignoring you because you have terrible research skills. Here is Sean's writing on how the list developed. At the very least, thank you for promising it's the last time you'll repeat yourself.

So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.

From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.

But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.

 Vaktathi wrote:

No, it means that you have one combination of things that works, and everything else is there as occasional filling.

The point was that the army you were referencing wasn't anything substantially different from normal Tyranid tournament builds, it swapped out some of the frills, but didn't really break the mono-build problem, they're all still built around that basic core of multiple Flyrants. The only reason anyone remembers it is simply because it included Lictors, but otherwise was just another flyrant-spam army. The army is critically reliant on spamming Flyrants, and usually minimizing investments in things like troops.

 Jancoran wrote:
Until they fail, I'm not assuming it. Do so if you like?

GW's got a rather proven track record of borking up certain armies for many years. Complaints about CSM functionality and thematic elements have been strong and consistent for almost a decade now. Tyranids have had issues with many units, consistently, since 4E. There's a pretty demonstrable pattern going here.

Both won. Both were different. Your anger at GW is fine, but it doesnt change the reality of what happened.

I agree on one point: Three flyrants is a beginning point for Tyranid armies right now. Definitely seems a wise place to start with them. I don't get why you care. Two Riptides is a very good start to a Tau army also. For Chaos marines, a Heldrake is an obvious starting point but that doesnt really tell you what to do next, and Chaos armies vary wiiiidely! Many armies have an obvious "good" starting point.

I hope you find a path to victory for your Chaos guys. "Monobuild" or otherwise. and if you open your mind to new ideas, maybe you will find more. Duking it out with me instead of leeching my brain of ideas seems like the worst of the two options though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. FW prices aren't crazy anyway. A Spartan, a bigger model than a standard Land Raider, is probably $110 compared to a $75 Land Raider. An Achilles is probably $10 more. Quit saying FW gouges people. It DOESN'T.

Um... you cite a 50% increase over an already ludicrous price as not gouging? I have to agree to disagree.

@Jancoran, aside from optimizing the Prophet+Possessed another option is going into FMCs. In which case they become a lot like Flyrants, but supplying Cursed Earth rather than Synapse.

It's kind of cool to see how close CSM can get to Lictorshame, but competitively speaking the meta has changed a lot since then. Which can't really be ignored if you're building a 2016 list.

Yup, especially with the rate of the codex drops, things CERTAINLY changed.

 Jancoran wrote:
Yup, especially with the rate of the codex drops, things CERTAINLY changed.

But often change just for change's sake. It's seldom an improvement.

Aye, like dropping Berzerkers to A1 so they could toss in Rage and counterattack, effectively nerfing them for subsequent rounds of combat beyond the first, but letting the writers use the new 6E functionality in the first book of the edition.

It would be nice to actually not have to have a mostly cookie cutter chaos list for once. Where multiple builds are viable. A man can dream.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Yup, especially with the rate of the codex drops, things CERTAINLY changed.

But often change just for change's sake. It's seldom an improvement.

Again and predictably, we don't agree. I'm not really down on it like you. I don't get the negativity given how much we seem to care. Certainly enough to keep this forum alive and well.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers).

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters ...but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).

I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, o.

Games Workshop is more than fine. For the moment. They took a huge hit and will keep doing so on Fantasy. However their 40K line has saved them.

Really? Did the new financials come out and were really positive?
I didn't see the latest report if so. The last report I saw was GW was losing revenue despite the new rapid releases. I didn't think they gave detailed reports of how fantasy compared to 40k is doing either.
Interesting if true though. I'm surprised there wasn't a thread about it.

 Jancoran wrote:

Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments. So I disagree there.

There are a few things to look at here.
The Lictors didn't win it for the list. The major damage dealers were the mawlocs and flyrants, with lictors absorbing fire, acting as beacons, and running around being extremely annoying.
The Necrons book released around that time, and I don't believe the decurion was featured in the LVO. I believe the eldar and marines book came out much later. I think we can all agree the necrons, eldar, and marines have gone up in power quite a bit with their new book. The centstar is a deathstar that can tackle two units a turn anywhere on the map, and is relatively cheap, for example. Min size squads of bikers also do very well against MSU, while before MSU was a great counter to the huge deathstars that were common.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Tyranid codex as a whole was a bit surprising in how mild it was, though i dont feel it left it unable to compete (since some really value "big tournament" outcomes and we know it has done that). It just Reeeeeealy has to have three Flyrants if you dont Lictorshame someone. I am sad to say that Tyranids got boxed in to NidZilla. Having said that, they aren't so bad at it once they have their Flyrants. There's a guy here on Dakkadakka that plays the clock really well with his and wins a lot so it can play but... I really think Tyranid players are owed a little for their loyalty at this stage.

Which is no different from what I said. The vast majority of the tyranid codex is bad, with really flyrants, mawlocs, and a handful of other units being really good.
Compare this to the earlier era, where you had Nidzilla in force, mutations on everything, genestealer with brood lords (or just genestealers if you go back far enough)...the Nid codex loses variety in every iteration.
Which is all I was originally claiming. It can certainly compete using it's power units over and over. I just get worried, since the last two codex releases saw me shelfing more and more of the dex.

 Jancoran wrote:

Lol. I know I haven't been beaten by the Tyranids in quite a long time, not since the new codex came. The closest call was a Triple Flyrant list and it took me to the wire, because that Psychic Scream variant they have can do some serious and sudden damage to you when it rolls well and sometimes it DOES roll well. There's other reasons too: they have an interesting Null deployment they can do which keeps them in games surprisingly well. That build has also done well because it allows the Tyranid to absolutely massacre a given sector of the board that it wants to, instead of having to take the attrition battle from the word go. So yeah I've seen innovative Generals doing good things with them.

A triple flyrant list isn't really new or original. Spamming flyrants have been what you do with the nids codex shortly after it released.
If he won with a hormie horde or a old fashioned nidzilla list, that would be original and interesting. Or a genestealer list.

 Jancoran wrote:

Tyranids won the 2014 Elvensword Ambssadorial Tournament not so far removed from the releae of the most recent codex. So there's that also.

Again, no one is questioning the power of the tyranid codex. Flyrants are very good. That also would not include the newer codexes as well.
It's the vast majority of the codex that is bad, not the few units we see over and over.

 Jancoran wrote:

I don't care that Space Marines got {fill in the blanks} first. Necrons and Eldar did before that and everyone is getting similar things now so like i said: Just a matter of time. Don't let envy getcha down. Company Support Rule is really dumb. fortunately its easy to exclude them from tournament play. But I saw one played at a prep tournament I ran in September, where i allowed it. It got completely wrecked in its second game and eked out a tie in the third. Turns out, moving that much armor isnt as easy in reality as it looks on paper. =) And if kill points are an issue, as they were in the "Total War " Scenario I ran (which the players knew beforehand was a mission) well...

You say that, but for many dexes it's been since 3rd edition that they've had a good codex that allows a variety of builds. 10-15 years of waiting for a good codex to come back around, when many other armies, like eldar, keep getting really good dexes.
There is no guarantee that GW will fix the outstanding problems with many of the dexes. Many of these dexes are relatively new and were inferior to the dexes that came before them in many ways.

 Jancoran wrote:

Kroot? Sigh. Once they couldn't charge from outflank, it kinda ended that fun. Great unit til then. They did however improve it again, allowing Krootox to join the Kroot so I abuse that. Step 1: show up on the enemy's long board edge (yes, you actually can!). Step 2: fire Markerlights. Step 3: Fire STR 7 guns into rear armor. Step 4: Dodge Shrapnel. Hehehe. That trick never gets old. Nor less jarring to an unsuspecting enemy. They be like "Wait..whuuut?"

It's not bad, it's just no where near as good as going pure Tau is. They keep focusing on the suits and tau and forgetting the empire. I was really hoping for a fix for the kroot and vespids, and possibly a few more alien species as well.
I'll admit, I'm probably a rare Tau owner, who got into Tau more for the Empire part than the suits, so maybe I'm not the market and shouldn't expect anything. Tau are mostly in a good place.

 Jancoran wrote:

So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.

Because the last few codex updates have worked out so well for nids and chaos....

TLR version;
I don't know why you mentioned the power of flyrants and the power level of the nid codex when they are spammed, that is not in question.
The issue with the nid codex is it doesn't represent a fluffy nid army, and most of the units in the dex are really bad.

Experiment 626 wrote:
GW seemingly comes across as not giving a rat's fart about Chaos more so in how they've consistently ignored our entire model line... Leaving Sisters aside for now, (as they are the true red-headed step-devil-child), only Chaos players get shafted when it comes to the timely updating of our model line.

- Our entire line is still firmly rooted in 3rd edition. Loyalists got plastic Assault Marines in 2000 - we waited until ****ing 2012 for the same!

Plenty of armies' core models go back to 3rd. Orks, elder guardians, imperial guard catachans.

Akiasura wrote:

TLR version;
I don't know why you mentioned the power of flyrants and the power level of the nid codex when they are spammed, that is not in question.
The issue with the nid codex is it doesn't represent a fluffy nid army, and most of the units in the dex are really bad.

Doesnt matter how. The Dex can compete. HOW is an entirely other discussion but anyone who says they "cant win" with the Chaos Codex or Tyranid codex is in fact wrong. Proofs been provided repeatedly for those who want to learn.

It is like i said originally: it isnt the Codex's fault that the collectors dont want to buy or else dont want to field the certain mode;s that the Codex most benefitted. There will always be winners nd losers nd near misses in every codex so its kind of just the way war games go.

 Jancoran wrote:

It is like i said originally: it isnt the Codex's fault that the collectors dont want to buy or else dont want to field the certain mode;s that the Codex most benefitted. There will always be winners nd losers nd near misses in every codex so its kind of just the way war games go.

You're certainly a perfect customer by GW's mindset, eh.

They owe their very existence to my purchases.

chaos space marines can do fine with forgeworld

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

TLR version;
I don't know why you mentioned the power of flyrants and the power level of the nid codex when they are spammed, that is not in question.
The issue with the nid codex is it doesn't represent a fluffy nid army, and most of the units in the dex are really bad.

Doesnt matter how. The Dex can compete.

Of course it matters how it can compete.
If you got into nids for the swarm of bugs or genestealer cult, you are having a terrible time right now. The dex does not let you run that army, despite it being very iconic and strong in previous editions.
No one is claiming the Tyranid dex can't compete. People are saying that most of the codex is awful. Tournament lists seem to only support that.

 Jancoran wrote:

HOW is an entirely other discussion but anyone who says they "cant win" with the Chaos Codex or Tyranid codex is in fact wrong. Proofs been provided repeatedly for those who want to learn.

No one is saying they can't win with the Tyranid codex. Everyone is very much aware that you start with several FMCs, add some mawlocs, and flavor to taste because those units will be doing the heavy lifting.
As for the proof of Chaos codex winning, I don't remember any proof being offered that Chaos can go up against the power lists (Centstar, Decurion, Eldar) and win. Did someone provide some? I'd like to see how its done if so.

 Jancoran wrote:

It is like i said originally: it isnt the Codex's fault that the collectors dont want to buy or else dont want to field the certain mode;s that the Codex most benefitted.

Of course it's the codexes fault. The codex decides if the models you like are viable.
Are you saying 1k sons should just deal with it and buy nurgle, and their sour grapes aren't deserved? World Eaters? Horde nid players? Wych DE players?
These are people who had models invalidated by the current codex, where they were once viable (maybe not 1k sons....but they were better).

 Jancoran wrote:

There will always be winners nd losers nd near misses in every codex so its kind of just the way war games go.

Sure, no codex is perfect.
But eldar have, what, 3 units that are terrible? Maybe 4 or 5?
Nids and DE meanwhile have 5 units that are good.

You said you played warmachine. The factions in warmachine have some losers (MoWs, Kossites) but the majority of each faction is still playable. If you look at the WTC, you'll see a large variety of army choices that you don't see at the ETC 40k or other events.

A codex is bad for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) The majority of the codex is unplayable and flat out worse than the rest. Internally and externally, you are extremely limited in what you can use. It's even worse if the things you can use are not iconic of the army.
2) The codex has a low power level no matter what you do, and every game becomes a struggle if the opponent picks a better dex.

The worst codexes are a combination of both.

nareik wrote:
CSM gained lots of daemon engines and a few 'daemon' infantry. Also, the true daemon side of chaos has grown, even if it means the army is split across two codexes.

They also have KDK which means you can do some unprecedented tricks, like allying in a Herald. But despite all these unexplored options some real issues exist when playing 'weaker' armies in 40k, which explain why we don't see more surprises.

- financial and time investment to acquire and assemble the models
- opponents who resent playing an experimental list
- low volume of games due to time and space constraints
- players who are discouraged by failure, which is inevitable if experimenting
- negativity and condescension for playing X codex/unit with bad reputation

This isn't the fault of a codex itself, but it definitely discourages your average player from unlocking some of the less obvious synergies and builds available.

The Daemon Engines unfortunately largely are either very situational or painfully overcosted. Compare a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder to Maulerfiend at 125, a Forgefiend at 175, or worse, a Defiler at 200pts, and one can see where they have problems.

With regards to the more "unprecedented tricks", they're not unknown, in fact, most CSM armies that are placing in events do so through using things like daemon allies and the like. The problem is that then a lot of the time you're not really playing a CSM army, many such lists have very few or in some cases even no actual Chaos Marines in them (often things like Belakor plus Cultists and maybe a single CSM sorceror with a Baledrake plus gobs of Daemon allies). A lot of these tricks also just don't jive with lots of themes, particularly most Legions.

Competitive play is not about themes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Daemon Engines unfortunately largely are either very situational or painfully overcosted. Compare a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder to Maulerfiend at 125, a Forgefiend at 175, or worse, a Defiler at 200pts, and one can see where they have problems.

The more I look at it and the more I think about it, the more I believe the current Chaos codex (or at least, most of it) was probably designed with 5th edition in mind, and was just released after 6th edition dropped. The Fiends would have been neat with 5th edition rules. Really hard to crack considering how durable vehicles were back then (most of the time) plus 5++ save and IWND.

This has been talked to death already around the forums, but really the Chaos dex is just stuck in 4/5th edition. The only thing that was truly fit for 6th edition was the Baledrake, and mostly because it was an autoplay unit. Also Nurgle because Nurgle is basically fit for everything.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Competitive play is not about themes.

No, but fair play should be. In a friendly match, I could bring out the cheesiest CSM combo possible, and still have the odds stacked against me when fighting a thematic sub-optimal list from another codex. No matter what Jancoran says, the codexes should be a lot closer to eachother in terms of power. And all codexes should make at least most of their units somewhat viable. We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

Maybe Jancoran should make a BA thread. That would be amusing for all.

See if he can survive the arguments from the tide of angry BA players? That would be funny.

Honestly everyone should just put him on their ignore list, so he has nobody to talk down to from his competitive throne.

One thing I do wish would change for the better is the possessed vehicle rules. Eating up occupants is fine as long as its not a requires upgrade, but decreasing BS is stupid. It should instead just ignore crew shaken, and maybe give a possessed table like 1-2:gives vehicle invuln 6+ or improves invlun by one/3-4: gives weapons on vehicle rending and vehicle stealth/5-6: acts as a fast assault vehicle. Random for sure, but would actually be taken for once

autumnlotus wrote:
Honestly everyone should just put him on their ignore list, so he has nobody to talk down to from his competitive throne.

One thing I do wish would change for the better is the possessed vehicle rules. Eating up occupants is fine as long as its not a requires upgrade, but decreasing BS is stupid. It should instead just ignore crew shaken, and maybe give a possessed table like 1-2:gives vehicle invuln 6+ or improves invlun by one/3-4: gives weapons on vehicle rending and vehicle stealth/5-6: acts as a fast assault vehicle. Random for sure, but would actually be taken for once

I would love marks for tanks that are possessed.

MoT, +1 Invul save or 5++ Save. Weapons gain Soul fire
MoN, 1 additional HP, weapons gain poison
MoS, can move an additional 3", sonic weapons mountable
MoK, becomes assault tank, tank shock bonus of some sort.

nareik wrote:

Plenty of armies' core models go back to 3rd. Orks, elder guardians, imperial guard catachans.

Please show me another army that has 17/25 of their units with 3rd edition models. While our Termies and basic CSM were redone for the early 4th ed codex, the models themselves are still firmly rooted in the much earlier 3rd ed style designs.

nareik wrote:
There have been variant models for space marines for a long time. One of the reasons there are so many 'not space marines' space marines codex. Really chaos is one of these.

Razorbacks aside, the Land Raider issue is a special kick in the face to Chaos players. Loyalist players keep getting new toys. Chaos players get all, except for the worst of the worst of the Loyalist stuff.

nareik wrote:
The best thing about chaos is there is every reason to use the loyalist kits. Not so much the other way around. From this perspective chaos have spacemarines +1 kit options!

Yeah, I'm so glad to see my "extra" Chaos kits chalk full of those amazingly cool options I can't actually use!
Loyalist kits are not +1 options for Chaos players. They're a constant reminder that we're not good enough to deserve our own proper kits, and instead get to pay the special "Chaos tax" just to access our most basic options.

Again, show me another army that has to spend additional money just to get their hands on their basic upgrade options.

nareik wrote:
Actually there are Forgeworld upgrade kits too... In fact there are forgeworld options for chaos terminators too, now I think about it.

Thanks for pointing that yet again, we're special and get to pay the "Chaos tax" just to have access to our basic stuff.

nareik wrote:
CSM gained lots of daemon engines and a few 'daemon' infantry. Also, the true daemon side of chaos has grown, even if it means the army is split across two codexes.

No - I'm talking specifically about our actual "Armoury" page. Ours has only continually shrunk since 3rd edition. Loyalists keep getting more and more new toys though.

Our 'best' upgrades are still stuck at Plasma guns & Autocannons. Even freaking Dark Eldar & Sisters of Battle have had more new upgrade options than we have!

nareik wrote:
Fair point, I suppose. Except you can buy some cultist options boxed and the basic CSM kit was designed to also represent chosen. Also, these options are available through the DV box / ebay (obviously). Chosen always seemed to me to be a conversion opportunity to create a unit of individual, characterful models.

The basic Chaos Marine is in no way meant to also build Chosen. It barely allows you to build even a basic CSM squad for feth's sake! (again, the newer Tactical Marine kit puts it to outright shame)
Or let's put it this way: we don't even have a single plastic combi-weapon component yet!!
We at least finally got plastic Lightning claws thanks to Warptalons now existing, but still, even despite having what's likely the smallest armoury in the entire game, we still have sizable chunks of it missing.

nareik wrote:
Although some of your claims have some basis, many seem rather insubstantial from my perspective. Sure the army doesn't get quite as much attention as all the other space marine armies added together, but no army does. Not even codex space marines.

It would be fairer to compare the treatment of chaos marines to another space marine variant, or even the non space marine armies, to see if chaos marines are being neglected. I would be fairly optimistic for a miniature reboot, but I feel we would loose out on some of the elements of the current kit that I particularly like (bolters being separate from arms).

That said, your attitude is a perfect embracement of the anti-establishment resentment that perfectly embraces the outlook of chaos marines, so I applaud your grasp on the mindset of this faction you want to enjoy so much!

Why should Chaos players be the only group that can't viably build their own army out of their *gasp* own model line?

I know Loyalist elitism enjoys trying to gloss our situation over and say, "rubbish, just add spikes to our toys", but that's not a solution. All its doing is proving that Chaos Marines especially have the worst model line in the entire game, as we're forced to build the bulk of our options from other army's model lines!
Do you honestly see Eldar players or Ork players having to cannibalise the Tau model line just to get their basic toys? Since when are Tyranid players having to go buy Dark Elf monsters to convert their big beasties?

Chaos Marine players though are like a second class all on our own, simply because our kits are either massively incomplete, missing entirely, or else are still half-useless 'direct-only' upgrade kits.

 Selym wrote:
We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

My car should get better gas mileage too. And girls should date me for my personality. What do you want me to say man? If you want a fair and balanced competitve game, spend that ~£35 on Starcraft.

In the meantime, you deal with things as they are. This KDK list did very well at NOVA, looking for ally potential is probably better than arguing about GWs financials or insulting people on dakka.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Another perspective is that by keeping the upgrade packs out of the main box set actually saves chaos players for paying a 'tax' on unwanted pieces.

Further exploring your ideas of 'paying tax', most space marine armies pay an elite tax. Chaos elites are no different. 10 death company vs 10 BA tacticals is comparable pricewise to 10 noise marines vs 10 chaos marines.

Yes, the models are older, yes you do have to use the internet to buy upgrade kits, but the legion cult units aren't a tax. Especially not berserkers!

For a long time Orks had to loot other model lines. Still do for the Looted Vehicle option. Also, according to the internet, plenty of Eldar players are using Tau models . But seriously, Chaos space marines are a variant of space marines, it is far more comparable to Dark Angels having to loot the space marine line for tactical marines and scouts (or shock horror, buy another DV box) than Eldar looting Tau.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

My car should get better gas mileage too. And girls should date me for my personality. What do you want me to say man? If you want a fair and balanced competitve game, spend that ~£35 on Starcraft.

It sounds like your happy/content with the fact the game is unbalanced... I mean, it's not asking for the moon here. Just a more balanced game. I see no logical reason why we would not want GW to try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

I love playing my CSM but can acknowledge that they are certainly point-for-point worse than many of the current codex's out today.

nareik wrote:
Another perspective is that by keeping the upgrade packs out of the main box set actually saves chaos players for paying a 'tax' on unwanted pieces.

Further exploring your ideas of 'paying tax', most space marine armies pay an elite tax. Chaos elites are no different. 10 death company vs 10 BA tacticals is comparable pricewise to 10 noise marines vs 10 chaos marines.

Yes, the models are older, yes you do have to use the internet to buy upgrade kits, but the legion cult units aren't a tax. Especially not berserkers!

For a long time Orks had to loot other model lines. Still do for the Looted Vehicle option. Also, according to the internet, plenty of Eldar players are using Tau models . But seriously, Chaos space marines are a variant of space marines, it is far more comparable to Dark Angels having to loot the space marine line for tactical marines and scouts (or shock horror, buy another DV box) than Eldar looting Tau.

Show me where Eldar have to loot another army line for access to Scatterlasers or missile launchers. Show me where Ork players have to use Oblits to build Lootas. Show me where Space Marines have to buy Tau kits to access Grav guns...

You know what Chaos Marines can't do? That's right, we can't build basic heavy weapons out of our own damn model line. (okay, we can buy a 4x Autocannon squad for the astonishingly great buy of $200!)
You know what we have to do to get Lightning claw Termies? Yep, we have to buy multiple $30 kits per model, or else buy Loyalist Terminators.

No other army has to put up with this kind of neglect... Just Chaos players, because apparently we're extra special.

I showed you ork players have to loot wagons for looted wagons. Not even in the codex either, similar problems to CSM there. They have upgrade kits for ard boyz. They have to loot other ranges for their buggy weapon options.

Its only recently citadel started doubling up heavy options for devestators. Besides, forgeworld sell really nice autocannons. Lightning claws are available in a dreaded upgrade pack too... wait, not any more. Well, I guess your stuck with conversion/kit bashing/forgeworld with that one.

There is rumour of one army that has to put up with this kind of neglect and more... Squats! Squats have it worse! All they get a cursory mention at the back of the brb box in the abhumans section and that's it.

Even worse, if you want chaos squats not only are they unmentioned, but you FIRST have to convert your models into squats AND THEN convert those squats into chaos. Actually, I suppose that proves you are right. Chaos players, squats in particular, do have it worst!

 clamclaw wrote:
I see no logical reason why [GW shouldn't] try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

Because then they couldn't sell new models using OP silliness like Formations and SHV/GC rules.

I get where you're coming from in desiring a more balanced game, but 40k has never been balanced and I doubt it ever will be. As they say, 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment!'

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm going to repeat myself for the last time... bla bla

I was ignoring you because you have terrible research skills. Here is Sean's writing on how the list developed. At the very least, thank you for promising it's the last time you'll repeat yourself.

So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.

From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.

But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.

He can say whatever he wants, but what matters is what actually happened. And what I said is what the Lictors ended up doing. So I'd have to say YOU are the one with gak research skills.

Oh I agree completely. Very convincing argument there.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
I see no logical reason why [GW shouldn't] try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

Because then they couldn't sell new models using OP silliness like Formations and SHV/GC rules.

I get where you're coming from in desiring a more balanced game, but 40k has never been balanced and I doubt it ever will be. As they say, 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment!'

They could spend their money on a better game from a company that actually cares. Pretending 40k doesn't have problems like you're doing helps no one.

Akiasura wrote:

No one is claiming the Tyranid dex can't compete.

Good. problem solved then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

People are saying that most of the codex is awful. .

No codex lacks a poopy option or two. But I see a multiplicity of lists showing up and multiple have won. I'm surprised as anyone. But it goes to show: Codex's don't win anything. So why do we sit here and talk about them as if they could?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
I see no logical reason why [GW shouldn't] try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

Because then they couldn't sell new models using OP silliness like Formations and SHV/GC rules.

I get where you're coming from in desiring a more balanced game, but 40k has never been balanced and I doubt it ever will be. As they say, 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment!'

They could spend their money on a better game from a company that actually cares. Pretending 40k doesn't have problems like you're doing helps no one.

Good thing I never claimed that or you'd have a point. Lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

nareik wrote:
CSM gained lots of daemon engines and a few 'daemon' infantry. Also, the true daemon side of chaos has grown, even if it means the army is split across two codexes.

They also have KDK which means you can do some unprecedented tricks, like allying in a Herald. But despite all these unexplored options some real issues exist when playing 'weaker' armies in 40k, which explain why we don't see more surprises.

- financial and time investment to acquire and assemble the models
- opponents who resent playing an experimental list
- low volume of games due to time and space constraints
- players who are discouraged by failure, which is inevitable if experimenting
- negativity and condescension for playing X codex/unit with bad reputation

This isn't the fault of a codex itself, but it definitely discourages your average player from unlocking some of the less obvious synergies and builds available.

Yeah i think the money thing has more to do with this nerd rage. Most opponents are happy not to see the netlist show up to their table and though no loss is preferable, there is at least a sense that they didn't have to play "that other BS" in their minds anyways. My Night Lords list for example is fairly unique and so people are actually kind of excited to see how it works.

Time is also a concern. I mentioned much earlier in the thread that if a Chaos player plays three times a week as I am wont to do, they are going to have more time to develop these strategies and see the proof of their labors. Having already acknowledged that, it doesnt justify nerd rage like this. If anything, a person with far less experience ought to be quite keen on learning new things through other peoples example. Even as much as i am able to play, I am still here on DakkaDakka (admittedly my least favorite place to go, but its prolific so theres that) because every now and then i run into someone with a really fascinating concept, and it could be with a totally different army but it inspires me for mine.

Or I could do what some do: nerd rage and tell everyone how the world is about to end if we do anything outside the box. "Netlist or die! Adepticon or bust!"

The codex obviouly provides the tools. Some tools are quite expensive for their role. some are okay. Some are downright steals. But that isn't as important as what you plan to do with them. that is what matters. And as long as you can execute the stratregy, even an overpriced toy can prove its value.

So That is how i look at things. I dont get wrappd up in all the negativity. Winning is its own justification. As napolean famously said: Success requires no explanation. Failure allows for none.

Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

 Selym wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Competitive play is not about themes.

No, but fair play should be. In a friendly match, I could bring out the cheesiest CSM combo possible, and still have the odds stacked against me when fighting a thematic sub-optimal list from another codex. No matter what Jancoran says, the codexes should be a lot closer to eachother in terms of power. And all codexes should make at least most of their units somewhat viable. We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

"should"? Sure. I dont think "Jancoran said otherwise" did he? I dont remember Jancoran saying otherwise.

We disagree on the degree to which they are already apart; and we disagree on whether that stops me from winning. THATS the substance of our disagreement.

There isn't a gamer alive who doesnt wish for something he's not getting. I wish Chaos elites were better for example. Chaos has a weakness. It has strengths. Like every codex ever. Play to its strength. Or don't. that's a choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

 Jancoran wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

I highlighted the part you seemed to have missed.
Was this the 4th annual? I noticed in the 5th annual the Tyranids didn't seem to do well...did they run the same list?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

My car should get better gas mileage too. And girls should date me for my personality. What do you want me to say man? If you want a fair and balanced competitve game, spend that ~£35 on Starcraft.

In the meantime, you deal with things as they are. This KDK list did very well at NOVA, looking for ally potential is probably better than arguing about GWs financials or insulting people on dakka.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

I don't want KDK. I want CSM. Undivided, preferably. For £35 I could get the Eldar codex, and win 90% of all battles. I bought the book to read it. Flippin' OP compared to other books, but it's a good read and has nothing but fluffy viable units and army builds, with nice useful quirks to each build. The CSM book costs the same, is smaller, more poorly written, and is just trash on the TT. How is that fair?

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

I highlighted the part you seemed to have missed.
Was this the 4th annual? I noticed in the 5th annual the Tyranids didn't seem to do well...did they run the same list?

I said this was 2014, almost exactly a year ago. Necrons were probably out, though I dont recall the timelines.

The newer list was decidedly different and did NOT do as well (although the 2015 list DID actually win the preparatory tournament I held, so people could get practice with the missions. It appears that practice paid off for some!)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

I could get the Eldar codex, and win 90% of all battles.

Lol. No. Not in ITC I imagine.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

I highlighted the part you seemed to have missed.
Was this the 4th annual? I noticed in the 5th annual the Tyranids didn't seem to do well...did they run the same list?

I said this was 2014, almost exactly a year ago.

The newer list was decidedly different and did NOT do as well (although the 2015 list DID actually win the preparatory tournament I held, so people could get practice with the missions. It appears that practice paid off for some!)

So...you knew it wasn't what was being requested and not relevant and shared it anyway?
Okay...

Do you have the 2015 list? I can't figure out how to get to them.
Do you have any list since 2015 for the nids that is original? You did claim there were multiple winning lists taking odd things, so I'd like to see one original one. I have a huge tyranid collection and I've shelved most of it, since it's based on the older codexes, would love to play that instead of eldar if I don't have to spam.

Don't be unpleasant. I provided the winning list from 2014. Now you're going to pretend it didn't win? Anywho...

You contended it was weak when it DROPPED so obviously this shows it wasn't so weak after all.

The 2015 list did win the Pre-tournament (we had 28 players for that if memory serves). It came up short in the big event.

2015: list (same General)
Chancy Rickey Tyranids
Combined Arms Detachment (1545pts)
75pts Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
75pts Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
75pts Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
HQ
230pts Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked
Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
230pts Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked
Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Elites
50pts Lictor Brood [Lictor]
45pts Venomthrope Brood [Venomthrope]
Troops
15pts Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
15pts Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Fast Attack
25pts Spore Mine Cluster[5x Spore Mine]
260pts 5 x Tyranid Shrike Brood (All w/Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Toxin
Sacs. 2 x Lashwhip & Boneswords, 3x Rending Claws)
Heavy Support
150pts Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer
with Brainleech Worms]
150pts Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer
with Brainleech Worms]
150pts Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer
with Brainleech Worms]
Fortification
70pts Aegis Defense Line[Comms Relay]

Allied Detachment
HQ
230pts Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked
Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Troops
15pts Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Heavy Support
140pts Mawloc

2nd Ambassadors list (never previously at the tournament, forced to withdraw early due to family emeergency so his record is not indicative):
Pumpkinhead Tyranids
Combined Arms Detachment
24opts 1 Tyrant w/ wings, 2x TL Dev, egrubs
260pts 1 tyrant w/ wings, Reaper of Oblit, egrubs, AG
72pts 15 Tgant w/ 3 devourers
148pts 6 Genestealers & BL w/ ST
120pts 3 biovores
100pts 3 warriors w/ BS
170pts 1 Exocrine
Detachment
240pts 1 Tyrant w/ wings, 2x TL Dev, egrubs
240pts 1 Tyrant w/ wings, 2x TL Dev, egrubs
165pts 3 Hive Guard
45pts 3 rippers w/ ds
45pts 3 rippers w/ ds
155pts 1 Hive Crone

All of the above lists still rely on flyrants to do the heavy lifting. This doesn't prove they can have interesting lists when half of the list is STILL monster mash spam. That is like saying the old space marines could be competitive without ultramarines, but then post a list with Tigurius as the Warlord :/ its ignoring the main point and showing minor variations. It's how I treat chaos lists: if you don't Nurgle spam and take 2 helldrakes then its not winning nationals, and even then it plays like a impguard vetmech spam summoning daemona

He doesn't care that a dex is mono build. As long as it's physically capable of winning a casual game once in a while the dex is OK and you just need to learn to play.

 Jancoran wrote:
Don't be unpleasant. I provided the winning list from 2014. Now you're going to pretend it didn't win? Anywho...

You contended it was weak when it DROPPED so obviously this shows it wasn't so weak after all.

Okay, wow.
First off, I am not being unpleasant. I asked for a list that may have faced the trio of power dexes, and you provided one before that while specifically quoting me. It wasn't what was asked for...at all. I pointed that out.

Second, I never once said it didn't win. I said the 2014 list didn't face the trio of power dexes . It didn't, they came out this year. Nothing ever mentioned about it not winning, no need to be so defensive

Third, I never said the list was weak. I said that many units in the dex are weak. I only mentioned 2 units in particular, genestealers and gaunts. I don't see stealers in either of your lists that played, though the guy who didn't appear did take a small squad (which is a broodlord delivery system, imo) and gaunts were in one with the MC that is pretty much mandatory with them.

Both lists from 2015 are taking 3+ Flyrants, a Mawloc (and accompanying lictor for homer duty), and some MC spam with other units added in sparse amounts for flavor. Everyone knows that is what is good in the nid dex, the problem is it's the only thing that's good currently.

So...what exactly are you arguing? These lists aren't very unique.

 MWHistorian wrote:
He doesn't care that a dex is mono build. As long as it's physically capable of winning a casual game once in a while the dex is OK and you just need to learn to play.

Hence why we should all ignore him; he's clearly not fit to reason.

autumnlotus wrote:
All of the above lists still rely on flyrants to do the heavy lifting. This doesn't prove they can have interesting lists when half of the list is STILL monster mash spam. That is like saying the old space marines could be competitive without ultramarines, but then post a list with Tigurius as the Warlord :/ its ignoring the main point and showing minor variations. It's how I treat chaos lists: if you don't Nurgle spam and take 2 helldrakes then its not winning nationals, and even then it plays like a impguard vetmech spam summoning daemona

Its actualy not half the list. Overstating things doesnt help. and I see two...not three...Flyrants... in the first list. three in the second and third. Either way not close to half.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
He doesn't care that a dex is mono build. As long as it's physically capable of winning a casual game once in a while the dex is OK and you just need to learn to play.

Also: it won tournaments. So also able tyo win tournament games. Actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

So...what exactly are you arguing? These lists aren't very unique.

Sure. Everyone takes Raveners. I see exactly what you mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


So...you knew it wasn't what was being requested and not relevant and shared it anyway?
Okay...
.

That actually is unpleasant.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

So...what exactly are you arguing? These lists aren't very unique.

Sure. Everyone takes Raveners. I see exactly what you mean.

Well, your 2015 list showed that nobody took raveners, including the same guy. Apparently he didn't think much of their performance in the new environment.

But, looking at the first list in the 2015 line up we see
690 points in Flyrants
450 points in carnies
140 points in mawlocs
225 in Tyrannocytes
So nearly 2/3's (I think just shy of 3/4ths) of his army is in MC, with the largest chunk (nearly half) being Flyrants and Mawlocs. The rest is some mines, a venomthrope, lictor....the only thing interesting in there are the shrikes. I can see them doing well in today's meta, since there is less str 8 rolling around, and haven't considered them before. Especially in a fast list like this one.
But the vast majority of the army is pretty standard.

The second list has
4 Tyrants at @ 240 a piece (So 960, nearly half of his army is flyrants)
165 in Guard
155 Crone
170 Exocrine

So 3/4 of his army, again, is in MC spam, with the majority being dedicated towards flyrants. This list has some original stuff (Gaunts, Rippers, Warriors, and Stealers) but they account for a very small fraction of the army. All those units together are...400 points? And 2 of those were probably bought for the troop tax or cheap objective holders.

Again, not an original list, and not really different from what anyone is saying. Mainly Flyrants and Mawlocs, MCs are strong, sprinkle everything else to taste. Even the 2014 list spends the vast majority of it's points in MC's, with flyrants leading the pack.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


So...you knew it wasn't what was being requested and not relevant and shared it anyway?
Okay...
.

That actually is unpleasant.

Sorry you took it that way, wasn't meant to be.

 Korinov wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Daemon Engines unfortunately largely are either very situational or painfully overcosted. Compare a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder to Maulerfiend at 125, a Forgefiend at 175, or worse, a Defiler at 200pts, and one can see where they have problems.

The more I look at it and the more I think about it, the more I believe the current Chaos codex (or at least, most of it) was probably designed with 5th edition in mind, and was just released after 6th edition dropped. The Fiends would have been neat with 5th edition rules. Really hard to crack considering how durable vehicles were back then (most of the time) plus 5++ save and IWND.

This has been talked to death already around the forums, but really the Chaos dex is just stuck in 4/5th edition. The only thing that was truly fit for 6th edition was the Baledrake, and mostly because it was an autoplay unit. Also Nurgle because Nurgle is basically fit for everything.

That's pretty much exactly what happened I'm sure. The Fiends absoulutely would have been solid in 5E, as would many of the CC units, but overall, yeah, it's really built to a 5E paradigm and in many ways still very much a 4E one too, and never worked terribly effectively on its own aside from 6E baledrake spam.

Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

 fallinq wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

The argument being: How bad to they actually suck? Just a little or a lot?

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

@Jancoran: On a cool sidenote, there is a CSM Legacy of Ruin that gives a 6" aura to Daemon of Khorne models. So theoretically you can combo this with Cursed Earth, to get a 3++ on any Khorne Daemons that the two auras intersect. Trying to evolve your original Night Lords list, maybe the Raptors get bounced for MSU Flesh Hounds who can lead the way for solo Oblits and Mutilators, with Dirge Casters reducing overwatch, and your ICs and the Heldrake applying specialized damage where needed. You can park 1x CSM squad with a Comms Relay if reserves are an issue. And there's still possibilities for allied CD, if you want to get a Portal Glyph or Grimoire, or any other specialized support.

I think it might have potential but right now it's a pretty rough idea. Cool to think about though.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol!

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all.

I'm not sure if you were following the arguments, but when someone proposes a unique list that doesn't rely on the old power choices that everyone knows, people will be disappointed if it's using the old power choices everyone knows.
The night lord list uses nurgle (the only thing I haven't seen before is eye of night, which seems to work well in Jancorans meta since it's tank heavy, but wouldn't do well against most competitive lists you can find at most of the major events (check their lists for tanks or units that have HPs)) and the tryanid lists all seem to be MC spam with a heavy emphasis on Flyrants. None of these are new, innovative, or unique.

Yoyoyo wrote:

This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail while Eldar it's a bonus. Um, logic?

You don't see a difference between being a codex taking one unit out of another codex maybe (not every Eldar codex that competes uses DE transports) and another codex being used for flyers to compete at the competitive level?
The DE have the problem in the former example, since their main presence in competitive events is a taxi service.
The CSM have the problem in the latter example, since they are basically air support at competitive events.

The problem with those dexes is that I can take my biel-tan army (which is arguably not even close to the strongest craftworld around right now) and power build CSM and DE will still struggle against me. It should be, at worse, a fair fight.
A power build from the 3 strong dexes will obliterate CSM or DE if they are the main faction.

Yoyoyo wrote:

The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

Maybe I missed it, but it seemed the LVO champion wanted to try some different things out. What you posted looked like it came before the game, not after. The battles make it seem like the lictors main job was being a tough to remove teleport homer for the mawlocs, since they cost a lot more points to remove than they are worth. The list still relied on flyrants and mawlocs to do the actual killing, with the rest of the list being support.
The list was also before the power 3 dexes (should it be 4 now with tau?) that we see today.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

The arguments only seem stupid because, judging by how you're paraphrasing them, you don't understand them at all.

As I said, this argument isn't worth having. I've seen plenty of evidence from everyone already, including batreps at Sean's blog and posts from before and after LVO. The reality is I simply don't see things the way you do. As adults, we will politely agree to disagree. Those who don't want to be respected as mature adults, carry on.

Now, I can look at things that interest me much more, such as how to adapt a weaker codex like CSM to the current meta using synergies that compensate for unit strength. You know, "what CSM is good at".

Yoyoyo wrote:
As I said, this argument isn't worth having.

Then don't participate?
This is a discussion on the efficacy of CSM. Most believe that CSM is one of the worst dexes and struggles against many dexes, especially the top three. If you evidence to the contrary, please bring it forward.

Discussing the top 3 codexes is a different topic, that's changing the goalposts. Looking at efficacy involves questions like:

- What are the mission parameters and how can I address them?
- What enemy forces am I likely to see?
- What effects do I need to produce to win?
- What units do I have available to produce these effects?
- What units can produce the strongest synergies together?

At the point a concept exists, you need to trial it out to refine it and discover how it actually performs to refine it. Lictorshame is useful as it showed both a mentality, a development process, and the value of throwing an unpredictable curveball.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Discussing the top 3 codexes is a different topic, that's changing the goalposts. Looking at efficacy involves questions like:

- What are the mission parameters and how can I address them?
- What enemy forces am I likely to see?
- What effects do I need to produce to win?
- What units do I have available to produce these effects?
- What units can produce the strongest synergies together?

At the point a concept exists, you need to trial it out to refine it and discover how it actually performs to refine it. Lictorshame is useful as it showed both a mentality, a development process, and the value of throwing an unpredictable curveball.

Changing goal posts? Hardly. For CSM to be competitive, they have to be able to regularly beat the top three. Again, you haven't been paying attention to the arguments at hand. It's almost like you just jumped in at the end of the thread without reading anything going on before.

No, I paid pretty good attention. I think you're changing goalposts.

As I said, agree to disagree.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Discussing the top 3 codexes is a different topic, that's changing the goalposts.

I'm afraid I don't see how asking how CSM stack up against the top dexes is moving the goalposts.
Look at any tournament that posts the lists online in the recent months. You'll see that the top 3 dexes are the competitive meta, which is what the discussion was about.
Someone even mentioned beating the top 3 lists with CSM quite often at the competitive level, we are just currently lacking any strategies, tactics, or battle reports that detail how.

If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Looking at efficacy involves questions like:

- What are the mission parameters and how can I address them?

This is difficult to do, since the missions can be random or VP or something else entirely. Many tournaments use house rules for this sort of thing.
Do you have a jumping point for this?

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What enemy forces am I likely to see?

If it's a competitive setting, Eldar Necron Tau SM. Those are the strongest dexes with the strongest lists. A more casual setting will see GK, SoB, Nids, and many other armies using powerful builds while the strongest dexes tend to relax a bit. A very casual meta will see Orks, BA, CSM using their power lists while the other dexes are taking semi-competitive builds and the best dexes don't take the strong builds at all or are absent. The most casual metas will see outright bad lists.
You may want to define the meta before continuing. We have been discussing assuming a competitive setting thus far.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What effects do I need to produce to win?

Well, in 40k that would be only a few factors;
1) Build a skew so that you are immune to most of the weapons in the enemy's army. CSM are not capable of this however.
2) Put out enough firepower to decimate the enemy at range. CSM struggle with this against most armies.
3) Use speed to grab objectives and assault enemy troops quickly. CSM can't do this against the best dexes, but manage okay against the rest.
4) Be tough and win the long game. CSM can't do this against the best dexes, but manage okay against the rest.

Defining the meta would help. 40k is not WMH, which has a strong scenario presence that requires an indepth strategy. It's either random or reliant on being much faster than the opponent.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What units do I have available to produce these effects?

I won't cover this in detail, but the good units in the dex have been well defined. MoN everything, plague marines, noise marines, bikes, raptors, single mutilators are ok, oblits aren't bad, termicide is ok, havoks with MoT on a skyshield are hit or miss depending on the enemy, spawn with MoN are good, psykers and lords are good or needed. Tanks are mostly bad, the flyer and rhinos being exceptions.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What units can produce the strongest synergies together?

We don't have a lot of synergies outside of psyker buffs. It's a weakness of the army.

Yoyoyo wrote:

At the point a concept exists, you need to trial it out to refine it and discover how it actually performs to refine it. Lictorshame is useful as it showed both a mentality, a development process, and the value of throwing an unpredictable curveball.

Sure, but so far no one has proposed anything original for CSM, on either side of this debate.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

The argument being: How bad to they actually suck? Just a little or a lot?

Precisely. THAt should have really been the way to discuss it. Not polar craziness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

@Jancoran: On a cool sidenote, there is a CSM Legacy of Ruin that gives a 6" aura to Daemon of Khorne models. So theoretically you can combo this with Cursed Earth, to get a 3++ on any Khorne Daemons that the two auras intersect. Trying to evolve your original Night Lords list, maybe the Raptors get bounced for MSU Flesh Hounds who can lead the way for solo Oblits and Mutilators, with Dirge Casters reducing overwatch, and your ICs and the Heldrake applying specialized damage where needed. You can park 1x CSM squad with a Comms Relay if reserves are an issue. And there's still possibilities for allied CD, if you want to get a Portal Glyph or Grimoire, or any other specialized support.

I think it might have potential but right now it's a pretty rough idea. Cool to think about though.

Hmm... That's incredibly interesting. So like you could mark the Chosen or something with Khorne and throw Sorcerers in there with that? Gosh with Khorne Dogs, that would just be too cool for school. Again, not a Night Lords list, but a viable way to make those hounds scary as hell? Fun. Real fun.

So can you PM me this since its likely to get thread-buried? Just explain it in as much detail as you can so I understand where all the pieces are coming together and so I can ponder it.

Akiasura wrote:
If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

This is probably the best way to move this thread forward.

I would say though that the mission, terrain, houserules, etc. need to inform the list. Since we're discussing LVO a lot that's a good jumping off point.

Let's say we are facing 6x3 Scatterbikes, 2x D-cannon WKs, 2x Jetseers, 2x5 Warp Spiders, 1x WS w/5x Fire Dragons, and 1x Crimson Hunter. Pretty generic Eldar but we can discuss what CSM can bring to counter what, either solo or with allies. I'd greatly prefer this to the usual flamebait in dakka.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

The arguments only seem stupid because, judging by how you're paraphrasing them, you don't understand them at all.

I really don't think you're reading what he's saying. He's saying that the "Yeah but's" involve pretending like its a crime to take the good things out of the codex to justify the rationale that its bad. He's saying thats like De-fanging a cobra and then telling people how whimpy the cobra is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

This is probably the best way to move this thread forward.

I would say though that the mission, terrain, houserules, etc. need to inform the list. Since we're discussing LVO a lot that's a good jumping off point.

Let's say we are facing 6x3 Scatterbikes, 2x D-cannon WKs, 2x Jetseers, 2x5 Warp Spiders, 1x WS w/5x Fire Dragons, and 1x Crimson Hunter. Pretty generic Eldar but we can discuss what CSM can bring to counter what, eother solo or with allies. I'd greatly prefer this to the usual flamebait in dakka.

I have a friend who can do this batrep... I wonder if he'd be willing. I could make it a blog post.

 Jancoran wrote:
So can you PM me this since its likely to get thread-buried? Just explain it in as much detail as you can so I understand where all the pieces are coming together and so I can ponder it.

I barely know where it's going myself, but I'll try and scrape up an overview. Trying to find an appropriate platform for the Legacy is going to be tricky, a Heldrake would have been ideal but they are DQ'd due to being a Daemon Engine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
I really don't think you're reading what he's saying. He's saying that the "Yeah but's" involve pretending like its a crime to take the good things out of the codex to justify the rationale that its bad. He's saying thats like De-fanging a cobra and then telling people how whimpy the cobra is.

Probably best just to let that go.

Jancoran, the Legacies of Ruin Yoyoyo is talking about appears in FW's IA13, I believe, so considering your opinion of FW, you might want to look elsewhere. It could really be a fun idea though, I may have to play around with it myself.

Ooooooh... yeeeeeah. Probably won't make use of it then. Too bad because it sounded awesome.

On the plus side, it's using the old noodle, which I appreciated.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

This is probably the best way to move this thread forward.

I would say though that the mission, terrain, houserules, etc. need to inform the list. Since we're discussing LVO a lot that's a good jumping off point.

Let's say we are facing 6x3 Scatterbikes, 2x D-cannon WKs, 2x Jetseers, 2x5 Warp Spiders, 1x WS w/5x Fire Dragons, and 1x Crimson Hunter. Pretty generic Eldar but we can discuss what CSM can bring to counter what, either solo or with allies. I'd greatly prefer this to the usual flamebait in dakka.

Hmm...interesting list to face.

I'll have to think on it. I'm debating pure CSM, since spamming allies kinda defeats the purpose, but I'm not seeing what CSM could bring to counter that. Really its the Warp spiders and WK that are causing me issues. Nurgle won't matter against them, but it would help with the scat bikes, which are going to be putting down serious firepower.
You don't really need a lot of anti-tank, you can just absorb the one WS.
Transport spam probably isn't a good idea. The bike squads can remove one rhino a turn, and the dragons can kill a heavier tank pretty easily. Not to mention the D-Cannons.

Looking at this I'm leaning towards
1 DP w/ BlackMace (Or AoBF, but nurgle is the better mark) w/Biomancy
1 Belakor
These two are on WraithKnight hunting detail. Hopefully their cover saves can keep them alive, since D-cannons are so dangerous. Flying/invisibility helps.

3 Havoks Autocannons on skyshield landing pad W/MoN or MoT
Provides long range strong firepower. Will be targeting the bikes ASAP.

2 min squad of cultists
Chaos troops are bad, let's just take as few as possible.

3 Squads of bikes, min size w/plasma weapons marked for Nurgle.
Have them hunt the bikes as well, or the spiders.

And maybe some termies for termicide...if I can wipe out the bikes early I'll be in a better spot. Or the spiders, though flickerjump makes that really challenging.
If I could use forgeworld I'd be in a better spot, since I could use drop pods and possibly kill the bikes before they do a lot of damage.

I feel like you would want a Heldrake or 2 to clear out those bikes... Or at the very least, the Burning Brand of Skalathrax on a mobile character.

I would certainly take 2 drakes for that, 5 nurgle spawn and an ml3 unmarked Sorc with the brand and bike to go with the spawn.

And then 9 Oblitorators?

9 las canons turn 1 could possibly bring down a knight right off the bat.

Maybe another unmarked ml3 Sorc for buffs.

100 pt cultist tax.

 Konrax wrote:
I would certainly take 2 drakes for that, 5 nurgle spawn and an ml3 unmarked Sorc with the brand and bike to go with the spawn.

And then 9 Oblitorators?

9 las canons turn 1 could possibly bring down a knight right off the bat.

Maybe another unmarked ml3 Sorc for buffs.

100 pt cultist tax.

I would do something very similar to this... I might take a MoT Sorc on Disc though. MoN sorcerer w/ sigil and bike is T6 3+4++. MoT sorcerer with sigil and disc is T5 3+ 3++, but with added mobility and +1 attack. Your escort suffers though, the spawn lose 1T and I don't think the MoT for 6++ is worth it on the spawn. I think it's a toss up.

9 oblits is only 6 hits, then 4 wounds. After saves it's probably less than 3 wounds, it won't kill the wraith knight in one turn. Most likely it will take 3 since they can't fire the same weapon every turn.

The 3 havocs get 24 shots, 16 hits, 5 wounds, probably a little less than the oblits after saves, but cost a lot less and can do it every turn rather than every other. You could do lascannons or Mls but that ups the cost. If auto cannons were just one more shot..

For knights I think you really need to get them with a dp in close combat. I don't see how else you can kill 1 before turn 3 let alone 2.

Burning brand is good, if I take multiple focs. You really want dps to bring down the Knights. Maybe a csm flying circus?

Heldrakes would be a good idea. 2 of them would be good to clear out the bikes and possibly the seers as well.

There's a detachment called 'The Purge' unmarked or nurgle only, that probably stands a far better chance than a standard CAD against that eldar list. The only downside is no fast attack slots.

Wow there is no compulsory troop choice. 4x Elites and 4x HS.

There is potential there.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Wow there is no compulsory troop choice. 4x Elites and 4x HS.

There is potential there.

It's literally the only way I can get them to compete.

Take a MoN Warpsmith, Huron or Arkos, throw them in a unit of Obliterators, and take three laser Vindicators, Sicarans, or Fire Raptors. Plague Marines then become your compulsory "troops" without the MoN Lord tax. Throw in three of those squads with Plasma Guns, and season to taste with whatever.

It is one of the better things I've done.

Unfortunately warpsmith with MoN does not make Plague marines troop.

 Filch wrote:
Unfortunately warpsmith with MoN does not make Plague marines troop.

That's why he put troops in quotes, he is using them as elites. He doesn't need a troops choice with the formation.

dun dun duuuuuuuun

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Unfortunately warpsmith with MoN does not make Plague marines troop.

That's why he put troops in quotes, he is using them as elites. He doesn't need a troops choice with the formation.

Bingo.

 Jancoran wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

The argument being: How bad to they actually suck? Just a little or a lot?

Precisely. THAt should have really been the way to discuss it. Not polar craziness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

@Jancoran: On a cool sidenote, there is a CSM Legacy of Ruin that gives a 6" aura to Daemon of Khorne models. So theoretically you can combo this with Cursed Earth, to get a 3++ on any Khorne Daemons that the two auras intersect. Trying to evolve your original Night Lords list, maybe the Raptors get bounced for MSU Flesh Hounds who can lead the way for solo Oblits and Mutilators, with Dirge Casters reducing overwatch, and your ICs and the Heldrake applying specialized damage where needed. You can park 1x CSM squad with a Comms Relay if reserves are an issue. And there's still possibilities for allied CD, if you want to get a Portal Glyph or Grimoire, or any other specialized support.

I think it might have potential but right now it's a pretty rough idea. Cool to think about though.

Hmm... That's incredibly interesting. So like you could mark the Chosen or something with Khorne and throw Sorcerers in there with that? Gosh with Khorne Dogs, that would just be too cool for school. Again, not a Night Lords list, but a viable way to make those hounds scary as hell? Fun. Real fun.

So can you PM me this since its likely to get thread-buried? Just explain it in as much detail as you can so I understand where all the pieces are coming together and so I can ponder it.

You're not playing a Night Lords list... this isn't going to change anything.

 Jancoran wrote:
dun dun duuuuuuuun

I don't get your response. Was it a statement about how obvious it was? Not really sure .

I still don't see what you hate about FW, it allows chaos to have some fun interesting builds that are much more competitive in the current meta (you are all about playing with lists to see what works in an unconventional way, aren't you?), the models are some of the best looking on the market right now (and let's be honest, if people are still playing chaos, at least some of their interest has to be on the modeling side of things-best army for modeling hands down), isn't really any more expensive than regular GW stuff at this point, and is no more overpowered than GW's mainline armies.

Come to the dark side.

Once you go forge, you never go back.

Come to the forge side, we have cookies.

 War Kitten wrote:
Come to the forge side, we have cookies.

* with 12% shipping fee.


Seriously GW, at least ship free to store......

 welshhoppo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Come to the forge side, we have cookies.

* with 12% shipping fee.


Seriously GW, at least ship free to store......

And Canada gets an extra special shipping tax!



Damn how I wish the GW stores would go back to selling the FW books...

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
dun dun duuuuuuuun

I don't get your response. Was it a statement about how obvious it was? Not really sure .

I still don't see what you hate about FW, it allows chaos to have some fun interesting builds that are much more competitive in the current meta (you are all about playing with lists to see what works in an unconventional way, aren't you?), the models are some of the best looking on the market right now (and let's be honest, if people are still playing chaos, at least some of their interest has to be on the modeling side of things-best army for modeling hands down), isn't really any more expensive than regular GW stuff at this point, and is no more overpowered than GW's mainline armies.

Come to the dark side.

My dislike of Forge World isn't worth another thread on it. I dont consider Forge World "unconventional". thwere are other words i would use, but that's not really one of them. They are less often seen of course but that's as much a financial issue as it is anything else.

So i won't be coming to the darkside, but I always appreciate the invites.

 Jancoran wrote:


My dislike of Forge World isn't worth another thread on it. I dont consider Forge World "unconventional". thwere are other words i would use, but that's not really one of them. They are less often seen of course but that's as much a financial issue as it is anything else.

So i won't be coming to the darkside, but I always appreciate the invites.

You sure you won't be tempted?

I've been wracking my brains to see if we can build a mechanized CSM army that'll give the powerlist a run for the money.

So, I stole your mutilator idea... but, when hogwild with Forgeworld unit.

Try this!

1847 Pts - Codex: Chaos Space Marines Roster

: The Purge Detachment
1 Warpsmith (Warlord)

1 Mutilator, Mark of Nurgle
1 Mutilator, Mark of Nurgle

1 Chaos Relic Sicaran Battle Tank
1 Chaos Relic Sicaran Battle Tank
1 Chaos Fire Raptor Gunship, TL Avenger Bolt Cannon; Reaper Autocannon Battery; Balefire Incendiary Missiles (x4)
1 Chaos Typhon Heavy Siege, Tank Armoured Ceramite
1 The Purge Detachment (Pledged to Nurgle; Slaves to Darkness; Forbidden Munitions; Salt the Earth)

: Combined Arms Detachment
1 Sorcerer

9 Chaos Cultists, 1 Cultist Champion
9 Chaos Cultists, 1 Cultist Champion

1 Baledrake
1 Baledrake

1 Maulerfiend
1 Maulerfiend
1 Combined Arms Detachment

It's got your backline distraction in your Mutilators...

Maulerfiends rush up...

Sicarian/Typhon/Raptor unloads

Baleflamers burinates to taste.

Hmmmm... I might have to crack open the piggy bank for the Typhon (I have the other models)

Lol. Sounds like basically

Step 1: "take all the good units and dump them on field.
Step 2: play!
Step 3: Profit!

Lol.

But sriously the list saturates the enemy pretty well, guards them on the approach a bit and generally is unpleasnat when it goes off.

The cultists show up later and winn the game for you.

So yeah... Looks like fun. It might take a little tweaking for style. One thing i have to ask as i am just not a Forge World guy: Do those vehicles come with a ram or a Dozer blade type feature? pardon my ignorance but i am not an expert on Forge World units. I have the general gist of a lot of them and some of them more specifically but overall... Just too turned off to try and keep up.

So can they handle terrain? One of the reasons I took my Land Raider out wasnt because it wasnt a good idea. It was how big a deal terrain was. Even with a Dozer, i managed to cost myself in a couple key places. without one? ugh. I ultimately had to ay no to my Land Raider because it just was such a risk sometimes. Anything you abslutely cannot afford to immobilize can be bad policy.

 Jancoran wrote:

So can they handle terrain?

I'm guessing you're referring to the Sicarians and Typhon?

Both tends not to move that much as they're not transport vehicles. Just strategically deploy them and fire away.

The Typhon is a Super-heavy... so, I can't exactly remember if it's immune to dangerous terrains or not... (pretty sure super-heavy walkers are).

The Sicarians has the range to stay back... but, I do believe it comes with reinforce ram or some variant. Also... the nice thing about the Sicarians is that it's an AV13 fast vehicle. So, it can scoot if you need to...

I'm still pondering this list, lol...

I guess I need to finally assembly my sicarians and fire raptor.

That's a rather broken list I must admit.

Doesn't feel fluffy at all but it would certainly do some damage!

Now if we could change the cultists with thousand Sons just for style and laughability.

 Konrax wrote:
That's a rather broken list I must admit.

Doesn't feel fluffy at all but it would certainly do some damage!

Now if we could change the cultists with thousand Sons just for style and laughability.

It's actually not that amazing in a competitive environment, given that most strong armies have anti-armor that can just ruin them. Drop pod melta would hurt them minus the Typhon..unless the others have armored ceremite? In basic/casual settings it would be a bit more annoying, but that's mainly because mech heavy armies are less common there

autumnlotus wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
That's a rather broken list I must admit.

Doesn't feel fluffy at all but it would certainly do some damage!

Now if we could change the cultists with thousand Sons just for style and laughability.

It's actually not that amazing in a competitive environment, given that most strong armies have anti-armor that can just ruin them. Drop pod melta would hurt them minus the Typhon..unless the others have armored ceremite? In basic/casual settings it would be a bit more annoying, but that's mainly because mech heavy armies are less common there

I wouldn't call it amaze-balls...

But, against the new Tau, Eldar and Centstar/Demi-Company SM... it'll do just fine imo.

I just need to test it out.

You can buy armored ceremite for the Sicarians, but I didn't for that list. *shrugs*

I may just drop a Baledrake for a Termicide/Spawn unit+more upgrades...

Am I the only one who thinks it's an absolute insult that to simply have a chance we have to effectively leave actual Chaos Marines at home?

Not sure about anyone else, but when I picked up Chaos Marines many, many moons ago, it was to (shockingly) play with actual Chaos Space Marines! Too bad GW doesn't give a flying rodent gak about us.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's an absolute insult that to simply have a chance we have to effectively leave actual Chaos Marines at home?

Not sure about anyone else, but when I picked up Chaos Marines many, many moons ago, it was to (shockingly) play with actual Chaos Space Marines! Too bad GW doesn't give a flying rodent gak about us.

I'm taking my Chaos Marines out today. So i dunno what the gloom is about. 70% of this thread was spawned by me going undefeated a cuple weekends ago.

So there's that.

So no I don't think it's necesary at all to leave them at home to win. As aforementioned.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's an absolute insult that to simply have a chance we have to effectively leave actual Chaos Marines at home?

Not sure about anyone else, but when I picked up Chaos Marines many, many moons ago, it was to (shockingly) play with actual Chaos Space Marines! Too bad GW doesn't give a flying rodent gak about us.

It's really annoying. But, as we all know, the bad guys must never win. Unless they copy the good guy's super tech, and leave all their personality at home.

Does that make ba bad guys? Or even worse, since csm might be better.

Martel732 wrote:
Does that make ba bad guys? Or even worse, since csm might be better.

Nah, CSM's are worse. At least you have Death Company, Dante, and apothecaries to give everyone else.

Also a taxi service haha

Death company is horribly limited and completely neutered by spoiling assaults.

The ba have nothing as nice as the baledrake and our fw options are very limited.

The only apothecary in the CSM codex isn't even kind enough to FNP his companions!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, if you like slaanesh you get ghetto apothecaries for ~50 points, depending on squad.

Any marine ba can give fnp to with a priest is still inferior to a plague marine.