Wait... does the DLost Brotherhood detatchment require TWO chaplains? One command and one in the formation?

Here's my 1850 for the DC Detatchment.
Remember the Deathcurion is 1+core, 1 command, 0-5 auxiliary

Command:
DC chaplain

Core: Death Company Strike Force
DC chaplain w/ relic crozius
DC dread w/ talons, meltagun/HFL
DC x5, jump packs, BP/CCW x5
DC x5, jump packs, BP/CCW x5
DC x10, jump packs, BP/CCW x4, InfP/CCWx2, BP/PWx2, PF/BGx2

Auxiliary:
Lucifer Armor
Techmarin: servo-harness, BP/ CCW
Baal predator squad: 3x w/ flamestorm
Predator:1x Autocannon
Predator: 1x Autocannon
Redeemer: Extra Armour

Comes to 1850 even.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Wait... does the DLost Brotherhood detatchment require TWO chaplains? One command and one in the formation?

Yes it does. Which is kind of strange, but whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Here's my 1850 for the DC Detatchment.
Remember the Deathcurion is 1+core, 1 command, 0-5 auxiliary

Command:
DC chaplain

Core: Death Company Strike Force
DC chaplain w/ relic crozius
DC dread w/ talons, meltagun/HFL
DC x5, jump packs, BP/CCW x5
DC x5, jump packs, BP/CCW x5
DC x10, jump packs, BP/CCW x4, InfP/CCWx2, BP/PWx2, PF/BGx2

Auxiliary:
Lucifer Armor
Techmarin: servo-harness, BP/ CCW
Baal predator squad: 3x w/ flamestorm
Predator:1x Autocannon
Predator: 1x Autocannon
Redeemer: Extra Armour

Comes to 1850 even.

wow, your ten man DC squad is a mess of upgrades. I would dial that back a lot. That way you might be able to buy some upgrades for your Baal predators.

Overall I'd call this sub-par, but not awful. There's some neat options, but other than the grav-cannons, almost all of it involves formations, which really doesn't help when everyone around here has agreed that formations need to die in a fire.

As far as competitive playing goes, it seems the BA got hit again by bad timing and a change of design philosophy. First they got their 7e codex when the philosophy was to write toned-down decently balanced books, and immediately after the design changed to over-the-top formations and mega formations.

Now it seems that after a barrage of high power performers, the philosophy has changed again, favoring toned down formations that are an order of magnitude below the (mostly) 2015 formations, and just in time for a BA book... -_-

It just seems that no one in the rules writing crew gives a damn about BA, and they probably draw straws to see which guy has to waste his time on them. Maybe if they had a guy who likes BA as much as Phil likes his eldar, we might see some decent competitive content.

Silly idea for a 1850 list, for the one that wants to go full slow with the "basic" detachment.


Core: Archangels Demi company
Terminator Captain, storm shield and lightning claw
Furiso x2 frag and pod
Furiso x2 frag and pod
Sternguard x4 combi and pod
Sternguard x4 combi and pod
Sternguard x4 combi and pod
Sternguard x4 combi and pod
Sternguard x4 combi and pod

Command: Leader of the host-sang priest
Command: Leader of the host-sang priest
Command: Leader of the host-sang priest
Command: Leader of the host-sang priest
Command: Leader of the host-sang priest

Auxiliary: Fire Support Force
Devestators x4 lascannon



This list is probably gak, but still could be rather fun. 7 pods mean you got 4 assured drops and 3 more that start rolling on turn 1, so you have a serious alpha punch-and with a priest in every stern group, they won't die quite as quickly afterwards.





On another note-who is this "everyone" who agreed that "formations should die in a fire"?
Formations are awesome. they encourage fluffier armies by making unit combinations matter, they add flavor and give far more variety to army types.
Sure, there are a handful of formations that are pure stupid. but there are far more unit profiles that are pure stupid than there are formations.

So, erm, here's a thought - unless I'm mistaken, Dante's warlord trait ("units in your warlord's detachment...") carries over to the entire Angel's Blade.

Angel's Blade
==========
Golden Host
Dante
2x 5 Sanguinary Guard (4 PW 1 PF)
-
Archangels Demi-Company
TDA Captain (jumps in SG pod)
2x Fragioso w DP
1x 5 Sternguard w DP
4x 5 Vanguard w JP & 4 Inferno/Plasma/Grav Pistols
-
Rapid Assault Force
1x 5 ASM w JP/MG
==========
Inquisitorial Detachment:
Ordo Malleus Inq w 3 Servo Skulls

You can run this (with locator beacons for insurance if nec) at 2k - or drop them, a few pistols, a PF and run one VV bare to get this down to 1850. Rejigging wargear / RAF could get you a priest in there too, perhaps.

ASF special rules have them scattering -1D6, which stacks with both Descent of Angels and the servo skulls (even if DoA doesn't apply, you've still potentially got 6 12" bubbles of no scatter)

Deploy just the inquisitor. Turn one, 2 fragioso drop pods come in automatically, the other (Sternguard + TDA Cap) maybe T1 deffo T2. Decent chance all 4 gunslinging VV also come in (rerolling), with no scatter. Golden Host comes in with -1D6" scatter, or none if within skull range, and can charge. Turn two, ASM arrive (rerolling, -1D6 scatter) to help anyone that's whiffed. SG hit and run if nec, and everything on the board (ASM and INQ aside) charges.

Put the SG into a soft-ish target if you want the charge bonuses for a proper fight in turn two, or have one of the VVs bring grav pistols for a concussed target.

I'm sure this isn't particularly points efficient or competitive, but this idea of being able to deep strike potentially 9 units with minimal/no scatter on turn one is hilarious. Also, as the (mandatory aux) ASM are effectively the 'troop tax' in the formation, our assault marines are troops again!

[edit] not sure about DoA reroll for 3rd DP - I think it's 'all units with deep strike' so might still apply.

How about this STUPID, DUMB IDEA

The Detachment that gives zealot

Command
Golden Host
Dante
3
5x Sang Guard w/ Swords

Core
Archangels Demi Company
Termie Captain w/ SS and Relic Thunder Hammer (OR Karlaen if you are able to swap the Termie Captain out for him)

2x Rip n Tear Furiosos (Blood Talons, Magna Grapples ect)
5x 10 Man Vanguard Vets ALL with 2x Hand Flamers and Jump Packs

Auxilary
Storm Raven Squadron
3x Storm Ravens w/ Lascannons, Multi Melta and Extra Armour


Dunno what it Clocks at, But having 50 Vets DSing with no scatter (Formation Bonus+Dantes warlord Trait) and using 20 Hand Flamers (Per Squad) Is Dirty, Charging a Sanguinary Guard Squad after the Burning just adds to the pain
(I.E have each Vanguard Vet Squad team up with a Sanguinary Guard Squad)
And Stick each Furioso in a Storm Raven, With the Captain Taking up the 3rd

 commander dante wrote:
Dunno what it Clocks at, But having 50 Vets DSing with no scatter (Formation Bonus+Dantes warlord Trait) and using 20 Hand Flamers (Per Squad) Is Dirty, Charging a Sanguinary Guard Squad after the Burning just adds to the pain

Off the top of my head, having done some similar thinking just above, I'd reckon ~3750pts. Still, totally worth it to cover the entire enemy deployment zone in templates.

tkni wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
Dunno what it Clocks at, But having 50 Vets DSing with no scatter (Formation Bonus+Dantes warlord Trait) and using 20 Hand Flamers (Per Squad) Is Dirty, Charging a Sanguinary Guard Squad after the Burning just adds to the pain

Off the top of my head, having done some similar thinking just above, I'd reckon ~3750pts. Still, totally worth it to cover the entire enemy deployment zone in templates.

Just worked it out, Adding Locator Beacons to the Storm Ravens makes it a 4250 Point List

Other than our derpy demi company, I REALLY like this update. Will we be top tier with Eldar/Marines/Necrons? Nope. But we'll be solidly middle tier. The death company detatchment gives us a plethora of possibilities for both assault and shooty lists, both of which will be hyper mobile.

Can't believe VV gear is not getting a points drop like the vanilla codex.

WTF GW...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Can't believe VV gear is not getting a points drop like the vanilla codex.

WTF GW...

It's infuriating. Maybe now they have a separate BA VV box, they'll notice how few are sold.

Possibly more so is that, according to the current FAQs, it's impossible, for example, to take a Terminator Captain as the Command option in an Angel's Blade and have them join any of the Terminator squads available in the rest of the detachment without utterly breaking their delivery mechanisms and special rules.

(rules for detachments and formations only apply to models/units that are part of the detachment or formation; formation command benefits applying to 'the unit' do not confer to joined independent characters; units cannot take advantage of many special rules - charge after DS etc - if their IC can't)

So what's the point in having legal single-IC command detachments within an ABSF if they nerf the special rules of any of the other ABSF formations/units they join? Or is *that* why the battle demi-company effectively has no special rules...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Can't believe VV gear is not getting a points drop like the vanilla codex.

WTF GW...

Tomorrow they should be putting up the deathwatch rules up for feedback on Facebook.
If they do you should ask them to clarify if the cost is suppose to be higher for the blood angles VV.
They have stated they are going to answer the additional questions that people asked during the feedback stage.
It's likely the last time people can ask any faq questions until 8th edition releases.

Still not gonna believe that you HAVE to take a command choice for the Lost Company decurion until I see it. If memory serves, no other detachment has that requirement, and taking a 2nd chaplain seems silly.

You really think one Chaplain can control that many madmen?

Makes me glad I have a painted Lemarties and regular Chaplain (though I do need to re-base the model and get a jump pack painted and attached to it.)

Though, I do not relish the thought of painting more death company (Really don't enjoy painting black, truth be told), I do plan on having at least 10 death company to use in larger games, along with a Death Company Dreadnought (normally fielded as Cassor the Damned).

For now I'll keep chipping away at models slowly till I can get my hands on the book this weekend (hopefully) and see what we can see.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red Corsair wrote:
As for the Tau match up, it's still down hill for the marines. The drone net has interceptor, that means pinpoint AP2 pie plates hitting those clustered up SG. T

One expensive solution could be to take the chaos termi detachment along. Kill those drones before they get to intercept.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Other than our derpy demi company, I REALLY like this update. Will we be top tier with Eldar/Marines/Necrons? Nope. But we'll be solidly middle tier. The death company detatchment gives us a plethora of possibilities for both assault and shooty lists, both of which will be hyper mobile.

Yeah, I'm okay with a solid, middle tear army at this point, with at least some interesting things to try out, and use for models that otherwise collect dust. Nice that my Death Company models got a little more useful -- and I have a ton more I can paint. I have some chaplains I've wanted to paint anyhow, and I have a bazillion terminators I can build, too. And Furiosos!

I just realized that I have two Jump Pack Chaplains. The Winged Nipple Armor one and the Finecast one. So if I wanted to run the Lost Brotherhood, I probably could.

I wonder how the Ancients formation will play out. Dreadnoughts are bad, but Librarian Dreadnoughts are...weird. Especially if they get access to the same shenanigans as regular librarians in a BA army now.

Also the Archangels officially stole the Terminator schtick from Deathwing.

The Armoured formation could be hilarious; imagine a bunch of cheap preds running in circles shooting the crap out of everything. I don't see it as that competitive (considering Preds are only a smidge more durable than dreads) but it could be funny.

Lastly I'm kinda bothered that the Golden Host is 2-5 rather than 2-6, since if I remember someone mentioned there were only 30 Sanguinary Guards from the chapter in the fluff. With the formation as-is, you can field up to 50 Sanguinary guards in the same army (one led by dante one led by the Sanguinor)

Well remember in the latest codex you can up the number of models in your sang. guard squads to 10 man. so you can actually get 50 in one formation.

Any word on if they can take contemptors, and the new terminator captains?

Personally I feel that in the ITC, the new grenade ruling combined with the bonus attacks really give dreads a solid boost.

...So basically you can have 100 Sang Guard led by two chapter heroes while in the same detachment as the Archangels.

And people thought the DAs had a disproportionate amount of veterans.

 Leth wrote:
Any word on if they can take contemptors, and the new terminator captains?

Personally I feel that in the ITC, the new grenade ruling combined with the bonus attacks really give dreads a solid boost.

Nope. No Contemptors or Cataphractii Armor on Captains.

Is it just my impression or the archangels orbital intervention force isn't as good as I thought?

If you don't take the demi-company, these guys will scatter 2D6 and might be unable to charge. Moreover, the formation itself costs 600 points flat and you roll a single dice for reserve. If you are really unlucky you won't see this unit until turn 4 and as blood angels are already a very very expensive army, the game might end before they even make it to the battlefield. Moreover, I think it just sucks that you pay 5 more points for furious charge but this bonus gets shut down during the first round of combat if you manage to charge something after the DS.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Lastly I'm kinda bothered that the Golden Host is 2-5 rather than 2-6, since if I remember someone mentioned there were only 30 Sanguinary Guards from the chapter in the fluff. With the formation as-is, you can field up to 50 Sanguinary guards in the same army (one led by dante one led by the Sanguinor)

So ability to field 60 with one formation is better?-)

Not that it really matters since you can spam same formations forever so there's no upper limit anyway.

tneva82 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Lastly I'm kinda bothered that the Golden Host is 2-5 rather than 2-6, since if I remember someone mentioned there were only 30 Sanguinary Guards from the chapter in the fluff. With the formation as-is, you can field up to 50 Sanguinary guards in the same army (one led by dante one led by the Sanguinor)

So ability to field 60 with one formation is better?-)

Not that it really matters since you can spam same formations forever so there's no upper limit anyway.

Not this one. If the rumor is true it has to be led by a Unique Character. Since it only gives you a choice of two, you can only ever have 2 of these formations.

I wasn't aware that Sang Guards got an update that lets them up their numbers. Still though that means there's a whopping 100 possible Sanguinary Guard fieldable with this formation.

Has this thread addressed the issue regarding bdc formation having same bonuses as the whole detachment? Sounds paradoxal to me although wouldnt be the dummest ruling gw devised.

So after much brainstorming, this is the best list I can come up with that feels semi-competitive if played correctly and pretty well balanced.....
For 2K points....

Baal Striike Force:

Troops:
10x Tactical Marines
Sergant with infernus pistol and melta bombs.
meltagun
heavy flamer
Drop pod with Deathwind ML and Locator Beacon.

10x Tactical Marines
Sergant with infernus pistol and melta bombs
meltagun
heavy flamer
Drop pod with Deathwind ML and Locator Beacon.

Total: 500 points.

Elites:
Furioso Dreadnaught
Frag cannon + Heavy flamer
Drop pod with Locator beacon

Furioso Dreadnaught
Frag cannon + Heavy flamer
Drop pod with Locator beacon

5x Sternguard
3x Combi Grav
2x Combi Melta
Drop pod with Locator Beacon

Total: 555 points

HQ:
Captain Karlean (Warlord)- 160 points
Brother Corbulo - 120 points

Total: 280 points


Archangels Orbital Intervention Force:

Squad 1
5x Assault Terminators
2x LC/LC
1x TH/Company Standard
2x TH/SS

Squad 2
5x Assault Terminators
2x TH/SS
3x LC/LC

Squad 3
5x Assault Terminators
3x TH/SS
2X LC/LC

Total: 655 points


Total Army Points: 2000pts

General Strategy:

Karlean and Corbulo ride in the pod with the Sternguard.

Tac marines can be combat squaded to improve targetting effectiveness. (meltas on vehicles, Heavy flamer on infantry)

Locator beacons on all the drop pods allow for accurate DS of the terminators turn 2.

Deathwind missile launchers help reinforce the tac squads.

Sternguard loadout is versatile for dealing with TEQ or Vehicles.

Karlean helps steal initiative and along with corbulo's reroll and Karleans reroll, the reserve roll for the AOIF should help too.....

Every Assault squad having at least two Storm shields gives them some resilience.

They should arrive alongside Corbulo's squad where possible to give them the +1 WS and +1 Initiative from his bubble despite the Disorderedly charge.

1 Company standard may prove helpful with unfortunate morale checks etc.

Frag dreads are there to do what they do best and provide extra locator beacons for improved tactical positioning.....

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Lastly I'm kinda bothered that the Golden Host is 2-5 rather than 2-6, since if I remember someone mentioned there were only 30 Sanguinary Guards from the chapter in the fluff. With the formation as-is, you can field up to 50 Sanguinary guards in the same army (one led by dante one led by the Sanguinor)

So ability to field 60 with one formation is better?-)

Not that it really matters since you can spam same formations forever so there's no upper limit anyway.

Not this one. If the rumor is true it has to be led by a Unique Character. Since it only gives you a choice of two, you can only ever have 2 of these formations.

I wasn't aware that Sang Guards got an update that lets them up their numbers. Still though that means there's a whopping 100 possible Sanguinary Guard fieldable with this formation.

Why do I recall reading somewhere that there are only 29 sanguinary guard in the whole chapter?

Was able to have a sneak peek at the Vetrans Core Formation (The one where you can take 5 units of Vanguard)

Captain Karlean CANNOT Replace the Termie Captain in the Formation

That makes total Sense GW, Have a Formation which is the First Company,but the CAPTAIN OF SAID COMPANY CAN NOT BE PART OF IT

 Talys wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Lastly I'm kinda bothered that the Golden Host is 2-5 rather than 2-6, since if I remember someone mentioned there were only 30 Sanguinary Guards from the chapter in the fluff. With the formation as-is, you can field up to 50 Sanguinary guards in the same army (one led by dante one led by the Sanguinor)

So ability to field 60 with one formation is better?-)

Not that it really matters since you can spam same formations forever so there's no upper limit anyway.

Not this one. If the rumor is true it has to be led by a Unique Character. Since it only gives you a choice of two, you can only ever have 2 of these formations.

I wasn't aware that Sang Guards got an update that lets them up their numbers. Still though that means there's a whopping 100 possible Sanguinary Guard fieldable with this formation.

Why do I recall reading somewhere that there are only 29 sanguinary guard in the whole chapter?

You did, in the codex.

 commander dante wrote:
Was able to have a sneak peek at the Vetrans Core Formation (The one where you can take 5 units of Vanguard)

Captain Karlean CANNOT Replace the Termie Captain in the Formation

That makes total Sense GW, Have a Formation which is the First Company,but the CAPTAIN OF SAID COMPANY CAN NOT BE PART OF IT

You can functionally make Karlaen anyway. Just upgrade the Termie Captain to have the Hammer of Baal (for...some points). The one thing he will be missing is Counterattack.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
Was able to have a sneak peek at the Vetrans Core Formation (The one where you can take 5 units of Vanguard)

Captain Karlean CANNOT Replace the Termie Captain in the Formation

That makes total Sense GW, Have a Formation which is the First Company,but the CAPTAIN OF SAID COMPANY CAN NOT BE PART OF IT

You can functionally make Karlaen anyway. Just upgrade the Termie Captain to have the Hammer of Baal (for...some points). The one thing he will be missing is Counterattack.

You sort of can, but keep in mind, Karlaen's primary reason for use is his Warlord trait, which you can't guarantee (and therefore build a list around) with a generic Terminator Captain.

Besides, who cares if you can make something similar; GW just released rules for the 1st Company where you can't even take the Captain of the 1st Company. That is a major screw up from a fluff perspective, but is also, yet again, something that just would not have happened had the rules been for another chapter. More and more, this is looking like a phoned in supplement by someone who doesn't know or care about Blood Angels.

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
Was able to have a sneak peek at the Vetrans Core Formation (The one where you can take 5 units of Vanguard)

Captain Karlean CANNOT Replace the Termie Captain in the Formation

That makes total Sense GW, Have a Formation which is the First Company,but the CAPTAIN OF SAID COMPANY CAN NOT BE PART OF IT

You can functionally make Karlaen anyway. Just upgrade the Termie Captain to have the Hammer of Baal (for...some points). The one thing he will be missing is Counterattack.

You sort of can, but keep in mind, Karlaen's primary reason for use is his Warlord trait, which you can't guarantee (and therefore build a list around) with a generic Terminator Captain.

Besides, who cares if you can make something similar; GW just released rules for the 1st Company where you can't even take the Captain of the 1st Company. That is a major screw up from a fluff perspective, but is also, yet again, something that just would not have happened had the rules been for another chapter. More and more, this is looking like a phoned in supplement by someone who doesn't know or care about Blood Angels.

Oh I agree, wholeheartedly. This would have been a good place for them to put Karlaen's dataslate in a hardcover book. They did it with Krom, and I see no reason they couldn't have done so with Karlaen. Maybe they can update his Dataslate to have a rule allowing him to be used in place of a Terminator Captain in formations.

the 40k FB page put up these :


Little puzzled at some of the images chosen :

One appreciates this is really nitpicky but in the image about grav cannons & eviscerators I probably would've shown one of those.

.... not sure the flyers there can be taken in squadrons either..?


Photos do look good though

 BrokenRecord wrote:


Besides, who cares if you can make something similar; GW just released rules for the 1st Company where you can't even take the Captain of the 1st Company. That is a major screw up from a fluff perspective, but is also, yet again, something that just would not have happened had the rules been for another chapter. More and more, this is looking like a phoned in supplement by someone who doesn't know or care about Blood Angels.

Perhaps Karlean dies in the Campaign?

The only thing that will put me off of this whole thing is if we can no longer take melta guns on our assault marines. Anyone have info on that?

 th3maninblak wrote:
The only thing that will put me off of this whole thing is if we can no longer take melta guns on our assault marines. Anyone have info on that?

Still can. It's been confirmed several times on here.

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
The only thing that will put me off of this whole thing is if we can no longer take melta guns on our assault marines. Anyone have info on that?

Still can. It's been confirmed several times on here.

Ok, thank you.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
The only thing that will put me off of this whole thing is if we can no longer take melta guns on our assault marines. Anyone have info on that?

Still can. It's been confirmed several times on here.

Ok, thank you.

That was one of the first things I had to make sure of when I got ahold of scans. No way I am remodeling three Assault Marine Squads.

From the people who can read French are saying it got more expensive though.

They just changed the pricing so that you buy the jump packs and don't get the free transport swap anymore. Otherwise it is the same price.

Also interested in seeing what happens with the terminator captains updated sheet

Oh well, our assault marines are still strictly better.

The pics are blurry, but it DOES look like you have to take a 2nd chaplain for the lost brotherhood. Weird that you're required to take a command choice.

Anyone who speaks french know if the relic axe is unweildy or not?

 th3maninblak wrote:
Anyone who speaks french know if the relic axe is unweildy or not?

I'm not sure it is a power axe - the name translates to 'Guardian's Blade' if I understand correctly. And it refers to a glaive (sword) not hache (axe) in the fluff. My french is v rusty, so do take this with a pinch of salt.

But no, unwieldy doesn't appear to be listed.

Would archangels formation rules stack with descent of the Angels warlord trait for re rollable non scattering vanguard vets on turn 1???

That could be great for a null deployment fluffy army. And Dante has that warlord trait innately so it'll work well with the popular new golden host!

Thoughts?

That is interesting that Karlean cannot be taken at all, yet the rules allow Captain Tycho to be taken as a Command Choice, despite not being in the campaign, and also being dead

Some scans from Angel's Blade.
http://imgur.com/a/5Tk6j

I like the 12" Melta Pistol

Am I missing some text on the blood shard or something? 30 points for frikkin counterattack?! That's patheticrappy.

That first warlord trait on the DC chart is one-upping Corbulo pretty harshly. It's a shame we don't have a character with it set. We could use a mini-fateweaver.

Interesting that the DC can take Ravens as dedicated in the strike force:

And yeah it's dumb that karlaen isn't in here. As I said earlier, the person or persons who write the BA material clearly don't care about the army the same way the eldar, tau, and core marines are.

So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

diepotato47 wrote:
That is interesting that Karlean cannot be taken at all, yet the rules allow Captain Tycho to be taken as a Command Choice, despite not being in the campaign, and also being dead

Maybe this isn't first time in 40k history blood angels have used these formations? Did they come up with them only recently fluff wise?

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Am I missing some text on the blood shard or something? 30 points for frikkin counterattack?! That's patheticrappy.

lol

tneva82 wrote:

diepotato47 wrote:
That is interesting that Karlean cannot be taken at all, yet the rules allow Captain Tycho to be taken as a Command Choice, despite not being in the campaign, and also being dead

Maybe this isn't first time in 40k history blood angels have used these formations? Did they come up with them only recently fluff wise?

How did ALL Space Marine Chapters suddenly have Stormravens?
How come a FIRST FOUNDING CHAPTER Doesnt have Centurions? (Ok you can argue due to the whole BA-Not-Giving-The-Mechanicus-The-STC-For-The-Baal-Preadator thing)

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Wait... is there really NO WAY to take any of these relics on a captain? Wtf

 th3maninblak wrote:
Wait... is there really NO WAY to take any of these relics on a captain? Wtf

It's only for the DC detachment and the only HQ in that detachment is the DC Chaplain.

 commander dante wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

diepotato47 wrote:
That is interesting that Karlean cannot be taken at all, yet the rules allow Captain Tycho to be taken as a Command Choice, despite not being in the campaign, and also being dead

Maybe this isn't first time in 40k history blood angels have used these formations? Did they come up with them only recently fluff wise?

How did ALL Space Marine Chapters suddenly have Stormravens?
How come a FIRST FOUNDING CHAPTER Doesnt have Centurions? (Ok you can argue due to the whole BA-Not-Giving-The-Mechanicus-The-STC-For-The-Baal-Preadator thing)

Fire prism came to 40k in around WD217 or so. Does that mean eldars didn't have fire prisms before whatever year GW covered then?

Fact: what models and rules are currently isn't indication what they have fluffiwise available. 40k has never worked that way.

Taffy17 wrote:
Would archangels formation rules stack with descent of the Angels warlord trait for re rollable non scattering vanguard vets on turn 1???

That could be great for a null deployment fluffy army. And Dante has that warlord trait innately so it'll work well with the popular new golden host!

Thoughts?

That's my understanding. "Units in your warlord's detachment..."

Extends to the whole ABSF, so re-rolling Stormraven reserves, reduced scatter LS, etc. Throw in an INQ with servo skulls and you get no scatter SG on turn 1 too.

I'll take my vehicle squadrons and ignore the rest I guess.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

 commander dante wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

Presumably the part where its mentioned that its in the section that focus' on Armies built around using the "Infamous Death Company and includes their unique Warlord Traits, Relics, tactical objectives and The Lost Brotherhood Strike Force.

Its a Death Company Supplement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Its 25pts for an extra 6" and Master Crafted.

 commander dante wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

http://imgur.com/a/5Tk6j

Relics of the lost rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
[

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Its 25pts for an extra 6" and Master Crafted.

He gets in addition to his original as well but still, pretty pants if you ask me.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

http://imgur.com/a/5Tk6j

Relics of the lost rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
[

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Its 25pts for an extra 6" and Master Crafted.

He gets in addition to his original as well but still, pretty pants if you ask me.

Being cheaper or avalible to the standard Blood Angels Forces would make it better. But it comes out to about the price of a Meltagun for the Meltagun range and the cost of Master Crafted, with the bonus of being a pistol. So I still like it, at least the idea of it. If only they'd also make Dante's Inferno Pistol back into the Perdition Pistol so it too could have 12" range.

Isn't it no scatter if you take the archangels Demi with Dante in. The golden host?

Detachment reduces scatter and Dantes trait reduces it to 0 right?

And the detachment has rerolling reserves from turn one, so you have a pinpoint accurate deep strike army that comes in whenever you want most likely...

Am I wrong or missing something?

CountryMac wrote:
Isn't it no scatter if you take the archangels Demi with Dante in. The golden host?

Detachment reduces scatter and Dantes trait reduces it to 0 right?

And the detachment has rerolling reserves from turn one, so you have a pinpoint accurate deep strike army that comes in whenever you want most likely...

Am I wrong or missing something?

Believe so, see last page. And DoA also extends to all flyers (reroll res), jump and skimmer (reroll res and reduced scatter) anywhere else in the Angels Blade, unless I'm mistaken.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

http://imgur.com/a/5Tk6j

Relics of the lost rule.

Yes, but one of the Command Formation choices for the Lost Brotherhood is a standard Chaplain, so it's not ONLY the DC Chaplain that can take them.

So this book isn't perfect, but it is better. We'll see some interesting mech lists come out of it, with some hybrid mobility shenanigans with brotherhood of the lost and vehicle formations, and maybe a few assault oriented lists. Terminator/vet lists might pop up as well.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

http://imgur.com/a/5Tk6j

Relics of the lost rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
[

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Its 25pts for an extra 6" and Master Crafted.

He gets in addition to his original as well but still, pretty pants if you ask me.

Which means he can gunslinger them. So at 6", that's two Str 8, AP1 shots, one that re-rolls misses and rolls two dice for pen. Not bad really.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
So the new pistol is just STRICTLY better than the relic plasma pistol from the main book? Lol

It's actually stupid. The only character that can take the pistol is the DC Chaplain who already has an infernus pistol as standard. So you are quite literally paying 25pts for the extra 6" range which is just absolutely stupid. It just goes to show how much thought GW actually put into this.

Where?
Where does it state that the only the DC Chaplain can take it?

http://imgur.com/a/5Tk6j

Relics of the lost rule.

Yes, but one of the Command Formation choices for the Lost Brotherhood is a standard Chaplain, so it's not ONLY the DC Chaplain that can take them.

Sure?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:


He gets in addition to his original as well but still, pretty pants if you ask me.

Which means he can gunslinger them. So at 6", that's two Str 8, AP1 shots, one that re-rolls misses and rolls two dice for pen. Not bad really.

French pages for DC strike force and Golden Host are up - GH can choose 'from turn 2' when to come in. Ah well.

They do get to reroll scatter though - so guaranteed arrival turn 2 onwards, rerolling a 1D6 scatter isn't the worst.

tkni wrote:
French pages for DC strike force and Golden Host are up - GH can choose 'from turn 2' when to come in. Ah well.

They do get to reroll scatter though - so guaranteed arrival turn 2 onwards, rerolling a 1D6 scatter isn't the worst.

Link?

Edit: nevermind. Got it

Golden Host:


DC SF:

I've been looking for an excuse to get my old metal Dante miniature stripped of old paint and prepped for a grand re-paint.

Looking like I'll be dropping him into paint stripper when I get home from work. After that, some Sanguiniary Guard are in the offing. I always loved Sanguinary Guard, but never really wanted to run them as I prefer Death Company in my Elite slots, however this allows me to run them alongside my CAD with Death Company, so win/win. I'm going to need more gold paint before all is said and done.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Sanguinary priests always made me want to try NMM painting techniques lol....I need to make a dedicated effort to learn how to blend

Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

On the plus side Chaos players never have to buy glue since they keep beating that dead horse!!!

 Leth wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

On the plus side Chaos players never have to buy glue since they keep beating that dead horse!!!

Your comment is perfect with your avatar picture.

 Leth wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

On the plus side Chaos players never have to buy glue since they keep beating that dead horse!!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

When did they have a DC army? I personally think this is pretty dumb.

Back in 3rd Ed, when everyone had special lists. Before the dark times. Before the Jervis.

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

When did they have a DC army? I personally think this is pretty dumb.

Back in 5th Ed where taking Astorath removed the 0-1 Restriction on Death Company (and thus allowed you to take more DC Dreads)

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

When did they have a DC army? I personally think this is pretty dumb.

How is a DC army dumb? In this day and age, an assault army that can move 18in first turn and still assault is solid, but not game breaking. And that's even with 6 attack str5 init5 dudes that reroll to hit and wound on the charge.

 commander dante wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

When did they have a DC army? I personally think this is pretty dumb.

Back in 5th Ed where taking Astorath removed the 0-1 Restriction on Death Company (and thus allowed you to take more DC Dreads)

No one used DC in 5th because of the insane jump pack costs. The dreads, maybe.

Here are the 2 detachment scans for Angel's Blade.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm super happy about these detachment options compared to the Baal Strike Force I've been playing this year.
That being said, I'm a fresh eyed noob, but hardcore hobbyist. I have yet to see the OPness of Space Marines Gladius, or the Eldar, as my local group mostly consists of other Xenos and an unbound Grey Knights tfg (shudder).
Nor do I know how great it would be to get free points and how terrible it would be to losing (haven't seen concrete scans yet) objective secured.

The Angel's Blade Strike Force detachment with the Archangels Demi-Company as its core, lets me field 5 units of jump pack Vanguards without the need of Tactical Marines which is sweet.

I'll most likely be fielding the Death Company Detachment with the Orbital Intervention Force and work my way up building a Lucifer Armoured Task Force

Baal Strike Force detachment is still around as well!

 Leth wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

On the plus side Chaos players never have to buy glue since they keep beating that dead horse!!!

You, good sir, are the hero we need.


Edit: Also, for the DC formation...Take three HQ chaplains plus the obligatory one included with the core choices, attach them to DC squads, watch as they pure` everything they fight.

Think I just found a reason to buy more DC.

 maku wrote:
Here are the 2 detachment scans for Angel's Blade.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm super happy about these detachment options compared to the Baal Strike Force I've been playing this year.
That being said, I'm a fresh eyed noob, but hardcore hobbyist. I have yet to see the OPness of Space Marines Gladius, or the Eldar, as my local group mostly consists of other Xenos and an unbound Grey Knights tfg (shudder).
Nor do I know how great it would be to get free points and how terrible it would be to losing (haven't seen concrete scans yet) objective secured.

The Angel's Blade Strike Force detachment with the Archangels Demi-Company as its core, lets me field 5 units of jump pack Vanguards without the need of Tactical Marines which is sweet.

I'll most likely be fielding the Death Company Detachment with the Orbital Intervention Force and work my way up building a Lucifer Armoured Task Force

Baal Strike Force detachment is still around as well!

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at? Are Vanguards really worth using for BA? ...I've seriously never used them.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 maku wrote:
Here are the 2 detachment scans for Angel's Blade.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm super happy about these detachment options compared to the Baal Strike Force I've been playing this year.
That being said, I'm a fresh eyed noob, but hardcore hobbyist. I have yet to see the OPness of Space Marines Gladius, or the Eldar, as my local group mostly consists of other Xenos and an unbound Grey Knights tfg (shudder).
Nor do I know how great it would be to get free points and how terrible it would be to losing (haven't seen concrete scans yet) objective secured.

The Angel's Blade Strike Force detachment with the Archangels Demi-Company as its core, lets me field 5 units of jump pack Vanguards without the need of Tactical Marines which is sweet.

I'll most likely be fielding the Death Company Detachment with the Orbital Intervention Force and work my way up building a Lucifer Armoured Task Force

Baal Strike Force detachment is still around as well!

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at? Are Vanguards really worth using for BA? ...I've seriously never used them.

Well, they can ALL take Dual Hand Flamers...

Hmm that is an interesting build, I do love flamers - but that probably makes them crazy expensive.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Hmm that is an interesting build, I do love flamers - but that probably makes them crazy expensive.

420 points for a squad of 10 with jump packs

Ouch... I was looking for the cheapest way to fill out that Core so I can get to those Aux formations.

Quick question, in the ITC, is there anything to stop me taking a storm lance Demi company (white scars) with a lucifer task force and orbital intervention force?

 Gunzhard wrote:
The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at? Are Vanguards really worth using for BA? ...I've seriously never used them.

They might be if you take Dante for no scatter, re-rolling first turn reserves...

 Gunzhard wrote:

 maku wrote:
Here are the 2 detachment scans for Angel's Blade.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm super happy about these detachment options compared to the Baal Strike Force I've been playing this year.
That being said, I'm a fresh eyed noob, but hardcore hobbyist. I have yet to see the OPness of Space Marines Gladius, or the Eldar, as my local group mostly consists of other Xenos and an unbound Grey Knights tfg (shudder).
Nor do I know how great it would be to get free points and how terrible it would be to losing (haven't seen concrete scans yet) objective secured.

The Angel's Blade Strike Force detachment with the Archangels Demi-Company as its core, lets me field 5 units of jump pack Vanguards without the need of Tactical Marines which is sweet.

I'll most likely be fielding the Death Company Detachment with the Orbital Intervention Force and work my way up building a Lucifer Armoured Task Force

Baal Strike Force detachment is still around as well!

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at? Are Vanguards really worth using for BA? ...I've seriously never used them.

The same points that you can run a Gladius Strike Force at?

It's a Battle Demi-Company or the Archangels bit. You're looking at an HQ, 3x Tactical Squads, a Fast Attack choice(Bikers, Scout Bikers, or Assault Marines) and a Heavy Support choice(Devastators).

It's not as bad as you might be thinking.

I don't believe it is a bad thing - I just want to be able to fit the Orbit Inven Force into an 1850 list.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The same points that you can run a Gladius Strike Force at?

It's a Battle Demi-Company or the Archangels bit. You're looking at an HQ, 3x Tactical Squads, a Fast Attack choice(Bikers, Scout Bikers, or Assault Marines) and a Heavy Support choice(Devastators).

It's not as bad as you might be thinking.

I don't disagree, but unlike the Gladius, the Captain/Command Squad or Chaplain/Furioso aren't optional - so the BA demi-company has to take more mandatory units than the SM equivalent.

So it's an HQ, Command Squad or Furioso, 3x Tactical Squads, a Fast Attack choice, a Heavy Support choice and a normal Dreadnought. At a minimum that's an extra 250-300 points.

tkni wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The same points that you can run a Gladius Strike Force at?

It's a Battle Demi-Company or the Archangels bit. You're looking at an HQ, 3x Tactical Squads, a Fast Attack choice(Bikers, Scout Bikers, or Assault Marines) and a Heavy Support choice(Devastators).

It's not as bad as you might be thinking.

I don't disagree, but unlike the Gladius, the Captain/Command Squad or Chaplain/Furioso aren't optional - so the BA demi-company has to take more mandatory units than the SM equivalent.

The Captain is optional in BA. It can still be Captain OR Chaplain.
The Command Squad is mandatory, or it can be a Furioso Dreadnought.
Then there's a mandatory normal Dreadnought.

I'd feel a bit more sympathetic if it were mandatory 10 man Tactical Squads, but it still isn't.

Yeah, I tried to clarify that a little above. It's still two additional mandatory units.

There are still some nice ways to play this (esp at 2000+), but it's just a little odd, given its redundant formation bonuses, that a bare BA demi is 630pts while a bare SM demi is only 440.

tkni wrote:
Yeah, I tried to clarify that a little above. It's still two additional mandatory units.

There are still some nice ways to play this (esp at 2000+), but it's just a little odd, given its redundant formation bonuses, that a bare BA demi is 630pts while a bare SM demi is only 440.

I'd argue that the bare SM demi is cheaper because look at the associated Auxiliaries for SM.
10th Company Task Force(3-5 units of Scouts or Scout Bikers), 1st Company Task Force(3 units of Terminators, Sternguard, or Vanguard Veterans), Storm Wing(Stormraven and 2 Stormtalons), Armoured Task Force(Techmarine, 0-3 units of TFCs, 3-5 units of Vindicators, Predators, or Whirlwinds and 0-1 Sergeant Chronus), AA Defense Force(1 unit of Hunters and 1 unit of Stalkers; mandatory 2 Stalkers), Suppression Force(unit of Land Speeders and Whirlwinds consisting of at least 2 models), Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort(2-4 Centurion Assault Squads and 1 unit of Ironclad Dreadnoughts), and Land Raider Spearhead(3 units of any Land Raiders).
All are solid formations with a pretty hefty buy-in.

Look at the associated Blood Angels ones. Two of them(the Rapid Assault Force and Fire Support Force) can be single choices of Devastator, Vindicator, or Whirlwind Squads(Fire Support Force) or Assault, Bike, Attack Bike, or Land Speeder Squads(Rapid Assault Force).

Kinda makes a bit more sense why the initial buy-in for the mandatory Core is cheaper now doesn't it?

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 maku wrote:
Here are the 2 detachment scans for Angel's Blade.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm super happy about these detachment options compared to the Baal Strike Force I've been playing this year.
That being said, I'm a fresh eyed noob, but hardcore hobbyist. I have yet to see the OPness of Space Marines Gladius, or the Eldar, as my local group mostly consists of other Xenos and an unbound Grey Knights tfg (shudder).
Nor do I know how great it would be to get free points and how terrible it would be to losing (haven't seen concrete scans yet) objective secured.

The Angel's Blade Strike Force detachment with the Archangels Demi-Company as its core, lets me field 5 units of jump pack Vanguards without the need of Tactical Marines which is sweet.

I'll most likely be fielding the Death Company Detachment with the Orbital Intervention Force and work my way up building a Lucifer Armoured Task Force

Baal Strike Force detachment is still around as well!

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at? Are Vanguards really worth using for BA? ...I've seriously never used them.

Only in archangel sanguine wing.

My FLGS is already selling some Angel's Blade.
Is this even allowed ?

 Leth wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hey look. Blood Angels got their whole Death Company army back.

I promise I won't mention Chaos Legions as a comparison.

On the plus side Chaos players never have to buy glue since they keep beating that dead horse!!!

Only cyanoacrylate works for Finecast.

 godardc wrote:
My FLGS is already selling some Angel's Blade.
Is this even allowed ?

Sounds like they're breaking street date.

 EnTyme wrote:

 godardc wrote:
My FLGS is already selling some Angel's Blade.
Is this even allowed ?

Sounds like they're breaking street date.

Sounds like Heresy.

 maku wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 godardc wrote:
My FLGS is already selling some Angel's Blade.
Is this even allowed ?

Sounds like they're breaking street date.

Sounds like Heresy.

When all you have is an Inquisitor, everything looks like heresy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'd argue that the bare SM demi is cheaper because look at the associated Auxiliaries for SM.
10th Company Task Force(3-5 units of Scouts or Scout Bikers), 1st Company Task Force(3 units of Terminators, Sternguard, or Vanguard Veterans), Storm Wing(Stormraven and 2 Stormtalons), Armoured Task Force(Techmarine, 0-3 units of TFCs, 3-5 units of Vindicators, Predators, or Whirlwinds and 0-1 Sergeant Chronus), AA Defense Force(1 unit of Hunters and 1 unit of Stalkers; mandatory 2 Stalkers), Suppression Force(unit of Land Speeders and Whirlwinds consisting of at least 2 models), Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort(2-4 Centurion Assault Squads and 1 unit of Ironclad Dreadnoughts), and Land Raider Spearhead(3 units of any Land Raiders).
All are solid formations with a pretty hefty buy-in.

Look at the associated Blood Angels ones. Two of them(the Rapid Assault Force and Fire Support Force) can be single choices of Devastator, Vindicator, or Whirlwind Squads(Fire Support Force) or Assault, Bike, Attack Bike, or Land Speeder Squads(Rapid Assault Force).

Kinda makes a bit more sense why the initial buy-in for the mandatory Core is cheaper now doesn't it?

You could even extend that to the single-model Librarian and Priest formations. But I'm still bit, well, meh.

If I were interested in utilising the 'blank' formation auxs in that way, unless I wanted a shed-load of HQs, I'd likely just take a BSF instead for the extra flexibility and lower troop tax. There's little a BDC + blank Aux can run that can't be replicated in a single BSF.

I think once you pass a certain points level, the ABSF w BDC can become very fun. I mean, I've a scratch list w/ 2 Librarians and 2 Priests and a whole ton of jump marines using both. But at lower points levels - I'm lucky enough to usually run 2000+ lists, so optimisation probably isn't my forte - it just seems a bit 'clunky' to me.

Alright I've been told that our assault marines have been terribly nerfed: as a matter of fact, even though they are now allowed to take the eviscerator (who the hell care?) they no longer can select a free pod as dedicated transport.

Yup. They're costed like normal ASM now - so the meltacide pod loadout now costs 20 points more than it used to.

So is the chapter ancients formation worth it?

Banbaji wrote:

 maku wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 godardc wrote:
My FLGS is already selling some Angel's Blade.
Is this even allowed ?

Sounds like they're breaking street date.

Sounds like Heresy.

When all you have is an Inquisitor, everything looks like heresy.

I think the Inquisitor steps in only on the "big" releases. The stores I frequent get calls from their sales reps proclaiming lightning and thunder from the Gods if major releases are sold ahead of time, like Calth, Silver Tower, etc. The minor stuff like codex, weekly models, White Dwarf, lots of places just stick on the shelf when the get them (which is a day or two before the Saturday). I don't think it's the end of the world -- especially since it's all leaked before then anyhow


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 commander dante wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Hmm that is an interesting build, I do love flamers - but that probably makes them crazy expensive.

420 points for a squad of 10 with jump packs

lol that's a bit crazy

Price of a good knight Or a WK + hero!

 RedFox wrote:
So is the chapter ancients formation worth it?

If Librarian dreads could charge after using the Wings of Sanguinas power, I'd use it in a heartbeat as an ally.

 RedFox wrote:
So is the chapter ancients formation worth it?

Not too regularly in an Angel's Blade, I'd wager. Both core choices already have 1-2 mandatory dreads, so unless you were planning on 5-6+ in your list... Also, I'm pretty sure the formation special rule isn't available the turn they arrive from deep strike, if that's how you're gonna bring them in.

That said, as a standalone, maybe? 2-3 rifleman dreads that can shoot twice and a libby dread for rip and tear might be fun.

tkni wrote:
Yup. They're costed like normal ASM now - so the meltacide pod loadout now costs 20 points more than it used to.

True. But now we have everything normal ASMs have, plus more. Like 3 more choices of special weapons. Not to mention 2 more pistol choices.

Yay. Pistol choices.

 th3maninblak wrote:

tkni wrote:
Yup. They're costed like normal ASM now - so the meltacide pod loadout now costs 20 points more than it used to.

True. But now we have everything normal ASMs have, plus more. Like 3 more choices of special weapons. Not to mention 2 more pistol choices.

It's easy to complain either way, though. Normal ASMs are pretty sucky, while old codex ASMs were reasonably good because of the free pod. On the other hand, old codex ASMs, even with the free pod, weren't really winning games except against very specific armies, and against people who weren't very good.

Like, it's not that we lost a superb army by having cheap meltacide pods cost a little more (though they're easy to play...). But what we got for ASM is probably less useful.

Still, overall, the supplement is a pretty big plus IMO. DC got a huge boost (remember how many people complained that DC couldn't be used as troops anymore?), mech got a great buff, some of the formations look like they'll be fun to at least try out, and who knows what interesting psyker combos we'll come up with given some time.

I like the idea of the Rapid Assault Force with the Lost Brotherhood. That free 6in of movement seems kinda awesome.

 Talys wrote:

It's easy to complain either way, though. Normal ASMs are pretty sucky, while old codex ASMs were reasonably good because of the free pod. On the other hand, old codex ASMs, even with the free pod, weren't really winning games except against very specific armies, and against people who weren't very good.

Like, it's not that we lost a superb army by having cheap meltacide pods cost a little more (though they're easy to play...). But what we got for ASM is probably less useful.

I suspect the fact we can spam Priests again may come in handy in furthering their utility...

So, correct me if I'm mistaken, but the way I'm reading the leaked Assault Marine datasheet, you could build the following squad (hypothetical to see if this works):

5x Assault Marines w/ Jump Packs

1x Sergeant w/ a combi-melta
2x Assault Marines w/ Meltaguns
1x Assault Marine w/ Evicerator
1x Assault Marine w/ Chainsword & Bolt Pistol.

Comes to 140 points. You could go with an Inferno Pistol instead of the Combi-Melta for 145 points on the sergeant if you don't mind the range shortage (a negligible difference in cost). Of if you want to go gunslinger, 160 points for 4x melta shots (at least out to 6", anyway)

If so, That would be quite the fun squad to run with. A little expensive perhaps, but mobile, and with a hidden chainfist in the squad too for the odd AP:2 swing or two if charging.

I may build my assault squad like this. We'll see. Looks like a fun way to run them and give the squad a little bit of extra help if they make it to melee.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Unless it's changed, you take either a special weapon or an eviscerator as a special weapon choice.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value. Even if we overlook the free transports which is a mainstay of a gladius space marine list, we also have the fact that a gladius demi-company is objective secured. that alone busts the comparison here. For the blood Angels demi you have more "tax" units and no objective secured. To further add increased cost, all blood angels transports have the overcharged engines so you pay even more for them. You are easily dropping over 1000 points for this formation to make it do anything on the battle field (pods for the dreads, some form of mobility for some of the other units). Otherwise you are looking at 500 points or so for basic non-OS footslogging marines all with boltguns.

I am a big fan of this book but it is in spite of the Blood Angels Demi-company, not because of it. It's because there are some pretty fun/fluffy elements to the Death Company detachments and who doesn't love assault from deep strike Dante and sanguinary guard.

I'm not specifically calling you out on this, yours just happened to be one of the more recent posts comparing the BDC vs the gladius demi company.

swcorwyn wrote:
Unless it's changed, you take either a special weapon or an eviscerator as a special weapon choice.

That's incorrect. The Eviscerator has absolutely no bearing on the number of Special Weapons you can take.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That's incorrect. The Eviscerator has absolutely no bearing on the number of Special Weapons you can take.

That's how I read it earlier. If you wanted to spend the points, and had a 10 man squad, you could have a sergeant, a pair of meltaguns (or, flamers), and a pair of evicerators. Granted that would make the squad quite a bit more expensive (50 points more) but would allow for two hidden ST:8, AP:2 weapons with armorbane that can't be challenged out, and that each get at least a swing, or a pair of swings on the charge.

Having the jump packs be an upgrade does kind of sting, but 10x jump packs is still 15 points cheaper than a bare bones BA rhino, and 5 points cheaper than a bare bones drop pod at least.

I may push working on an assault squad a little more to the fore soon. Gotta work on some more Death Company first, and get my Dante painted after that. Free time is woefully scarce at the moment but in theory I'll be able to paint more soon. I hope, anyway.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I have the (English) book in front of me. It reads:

- May include up to five additional space marines
- The entire squad may take jump packs (3pts/model)
- Up to two Space Marines may replace their bolt pistols with one of the following:
----> flamer
----> meltagun or hand flamer
----> plasma gun inferno pistol or plasma pistol
- For every five models in the unit, one model may replace its bolt pistol and chainsword with an eviscerator
- May upgrade the Space Marine Sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant
- The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may do the following:
----> take items from the melee weapons and/or ranged weapons lists
----> take a combat shield and/or meltabombs
- The unit may select a Drop Pod or Rhino as a Dedicated Transport, unless it has jump packs

the - are bullets and the ---> are the indented dashes.

The cost of the squad has been dropped by the value of 5 jump packs. There is no free Rhino/Pod. Base cost of additional ASM don't cost the value of jump pack. The Eviscerator is the price of 5 flamers. Otherwise, all other costs are the same.

Unrelated, but in case anyone is interested, it reads under "Librarians"

Any Psyker with the Blood Angels Faction can generate their psychic powers from the Librarius Technomancy Fulmination and Geokinesis disciplines, in addition to any other disciplines they have access to.

Huzzah!

Talys, can you verify that the Battle Demi-Company has redundant benefits with the Angel's Blade Strike Force?

Just in case you were wondering, that's exactly the same as how vanilla marines ASM work (sans plasma gun, Meltagun, hand flamer and inferno pistol options that are BA exclusive). They are still ASM though, even with the evicerators and will still get bogged down if you're not careful. Still, it definitely lets them engage hard targets like fortifications, walkers (my skyhammer duo have a few Imperial Knights to their name) and monster where previously they were in a lot of trouble. Also makes sneaking a wound through on a Riptide a bunch easier too.

 Talys wrote:
I have the (English) book in front of me.

So there is no mention about Full company out of 2 demi-company?

I'd like to know if you can add characters to these Formations...

For example the Orbital Intervention Force, can I add a Terminator Librarian?

 Gunzhard wrote:
I'd like to know if you can add characters to these Formations...

For example the Orbital Intervention Force, can I add a Terminator Librarian?

You cannot, per GW's recent FAQs (yes, they're a draft, but c'mon)

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
I'd like to know if you can add characters to these Formations...

For example the Orbital Intervention Force, can I add a Terminator Librarian?

You cannot, per GW's recent FAQs (yes, they're a draft, but c'mon)

Ahh ok, good enough thanks.

No one posting things on the DC Chaplain?
I at least wanna see a pic or someone Typing out the rules and Upgrades...

BeeCee wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex. I really hope gw gets a lot of FAQs along the lines of, 'hey, just wondering but did you forget to add the free transports bit to the formation data sheet?' Or 'did you mean that there would be no reason to take the ABSF at all ever?'

On the other hand, the death company, terminator and sanguinary guard formations are awesome. What are the ITC / list building rules about just dropping those into an existing counts as space marine army?

 commander dante wrote:
No one posting things on the DC Chaplain?
I at least wanna see a pic or someone Typing out the rules and Upgrades...

Comes with a jump pack and melta pistol for a shade more than the loadout would usually cost, gets Astorath's rule and is afaik the only model that can take the DC relics.

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex. I really hope gw gets a lot of FAQs along the lines of, 'hey, just wondering but did you forget to add the free transports bit to the formation data sheet?' Or 'did you mean that there would be no reason to take the ABSF at all ever?'

On the other hand, the death company, terminator and sanguinary guard formations are awesome. What are the ITC / list building rules about just dropping those into an existing counts as space marine army?

Honestly I wouldn't the BA demi costing more for less, IF it opened access to other great formations+detach-benefits, the problem is the cost of the BA demi is so much that you really don't have much room to include anything else in normal games.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex. I really hope gw gets a lot of FAQs along the lines of, 'hey, just wondering but did you forget to add the free transports bit to the formation data sheet?' Or 'did you mean that there would be no reason to take the ABSF at all ever?'

On the other hand, the death company, terminator and sanguinary guard formations are awesome. What are the ITC / list building rules about just dropping those into an existing counts as space marine army?

Honestly I wouldn't the BA demi costing more for less, IF it opened access to other great formations+detach-benefits, the problem is the cost of the BA demi is so much that you really don't have much room to include anything else in normal games.

As opposed to any other Demi-Company?

You have two mandatory options that the others do not have; a Command Squad/Furioso and a Dreadnought.

You do however have cheaper Auxiliaries, if you just want to field the Detachment.

I would be flipping ecstatic if my Raven Guard's "Talon Strike Force" could fulfill its mandatory Auxiliaries slot with a Devastator Squad or Assault Squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex. I really hope gw gets a lot of FAQs along the lines of, 'hey, just wondering but did you forget to add the free transports bit to the formation data sheet?' Or 'did you mean that there would be no reason to take the ABSF at all ever?'

On the other hand, the death company, terminator and sanguinary guard formations are awesome. What are the ITC / list building rules about just dropping those into an existing counts as space marine army?

Honestly I wouldn't the BA demi costing more for less, IF it opened access to other great formations+detach-benefits, the problem is the cost of the BA demi is so much that you really don't have much room to include anything else in normal games.

As opposed to any other Demi-Company?

You have two mandatory options that the others do not have; a Command Squad/Furioso and a Dreadnought.

Yeah except Chapter Tactics means "any other Demi-Company" is all you need for most SM armies... though I've yet to play it but for BA it seems more like a much less useful tax - in order to get to the useful stuff, that you can't really afford because of the tax.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

The Core tax on the Angels Blade Detach looks really heavy... I wonder what is the minimum points you could run that at?

It's exactly 100 more points than a generic Space Marine demi-company and people love those.

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex. I really hope gw gets a lot of FAQs along the lines of, 'hey, just wondering but did you forget to add the free transports bit to the formation data sheet?' Or 'did you mean that there would be no reason to take the ABSF at all ever?'

On the other hand, the death company, terminator and sanguinary guard formations are awesome. What are the ITC / list building rules about just dropping those into an existing counts as space marine army?

Honestly I wouldn't the BA demi costing more for less, IF it opened access to other great formations+detach-benefits, the problem is the cost of the BA demi is so much that you really don't have much room to include anything else in normal games.

As opposed to any other Demi-Company?

You have two mandatory options that the others do not have; a Command Squad/Furioso and a Dreadnought.

Yeah except Chapter Tactics means "any other Demi-Company" is all you need for most SM armies... though I've yet to play it but for BA it seems more like a much less useful tax - in order to get to the useful stuff, that you can't really afford because of the tax.

It's a Dreadnought and a Command Squad. Are you really trying to tell me that those two things are breaking the bank for you, coupled with minimum squads in the BDC?

Additionally, Chapter Tactics aren't all they are cracked up to be. Raven Guard's CTs aren't all that amazing, nor is the Talon.

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex.

Yes, because Objective Secured is the sole reason regular Marine demi-companies are amongst the best thing in the game and losing it makes them the worst?

Your histrionics don't impress anyone.

So you're saying I only have to field a Dreadnought and a Command Squad?

No... I have to take 3 NON-OBSec Tactical squads etc etc... no free transports etc, which is fine except - these units are just "filler" in a Blood Angels list, that isn't so much the case for regular SM, where the Demi IS the list.

 Gunzhard wrote:
So you're saying I only have to field a Dreadnought and a Command Squad?

No... I have to take 3 NON-OBSec Tactical squads etc etc... no free transports etc, which is fine except - these units are just "filler" for Blood Angels, that isn't so much the case for regular SM.

You have to take 3 NON-OBSec Tactical Squads which have no model limit(so you can take 5 mans), an Assault Squad/Scout Bike Squad/Bike Squad/Attack Bike Squad/Land Speeder Squad, and a Devastator Squad.

You do know as well that SM Battle Demi-Companies don't just automatically get free transports, right? You have to take a Gladius, and you have to take two Battle Demi-Companies(one with a Chaplain and one with a Captain) in order to unlock free transports.

And that's coupled with having to take an Auxiliary formation as well, of which there is no "single squad" option. They're all multiple squads.

 tkni wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
No one posting things on the DC Chaplain?
I at least wanna see a pic or someone Typing out the rules and Upgrades...

Comes with a jump pack and melta pistol for a shade more than the loadout would usually cost, gets Astorath's rule and is afaik the only model that can take the DC relics.

Reg Chaplains can take the relics via the Command in the DC Detachment

Now is more Customization worth it for no Reroll to wound?

 commander dante wrote:

 tkni wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
No one posting things on the DC Chaplain?
I at least wanna see a pic or someone Typing out the rules and Upgrades...

Comes with a jump pack and melta pistol for a shade more than the loadout would usually cost, gets Astorath's rule and is afaik the only model that can take the DC relics.

Reg Chaplains can take the relics via the Command in the DC Detachment

Now is more Customization worth it for no Reroll to wound?

I can't believe I'm hearing grieving Space Marines players here right now hah... with arguably the second best codex in the game right now. Ok well I'm convinced you must just be an amazing tactician to win with your super nerfed codex.

Look, pretty much everything in the Demi is better for SM with just Chapter Tactics ALONE... forget ObSec and unlocking free-transports (which for SM is entirely beneficial to do)...

The Blood Angels already had the Battle Company "demi" in their codex and it had ObSec at the very least - and yet still most people agreed the Blood Angels codex was one of the weaker out there.

And again I don't even care if it is worse than the SM version which, I'm sorry it IS... the point is that it's so expensive that it prevents you from taking the units that really do benefit from the Blood Angels rules.

 commander dante wrote:

Reg Chaplains can take the relics via the Command in the DC Detachment

You can't take a regular chaplain in the Death Company Command - only Astorath, Lemartes and the DC chaplain.

Shame that fancy armor isnt Artificer, but still not too shabby.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I would be flipping ecstatic if my Raven Guard's "Talon Strike Force" could fulfill its mandatory Auxiliaries slot with a Devastator Squad or Assault Squad.

Would you exchange the mandatory scout squad for a mandatory dreadnought and command squad/furioso?

You're right that your auxiliaries are quite points heavy, but you've reminded me of another annoyance - RG VV get non-disordered charges from deep strike, and BA SG don't....!?!

 Gunzhard wrote:
I'd like to know if you can add characters to these Formations...

For example the Orbital Intervention Force, can I add a Terminator Librarian?

No. The exact text reads:

Formation:
- 3 units chosen in anyh combination from the following list:
- Terminator Squads
- Terminator Assault Squads

BDC reads: 1 Captain or Chaplain
Archangel's Demi-Company reads: 1 Terminator Captain
10th Co. has no command/characters
DC Strike Force reads: 1 DC Chaplain
Golden Host reads: The Sanguinor or Commander Dante
Chapter Ancients reads: 3-5 units chosen from the following list: Librarian Dread, Dread, Furioso Dread
Stormraven Squad has no characters
Lucifer Armored Task Force reads: 1 Techmarine

Detachments:
Deathcurion requires 1 command, command is 1-3 of Astorath, Lemartes, DC Chap; 1+ Core requires 1 DC Chaplain, 0-5 Aux

Regular superdetachment requires: 0-5 command 1+ core 1+ Aux.:
Command: Golden Host, Chapter Ancients, or Leaders of Angelic Host (1 of the following: Term Captain, Tycho, Librarian, Mephiston, Sanguinary Priest, Brother Corbulo), 0-1 Command Squad, 0-1 Stormraven)
Core is BDC or ADC

Most spammy is, as someone else mentioned, you can grab 5 priests as Command.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omega-soul wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I have the (English) book in front of me.

So there is no mention about Full company out of 2 demi-company?

No, there is not.

Though you could build one out of Army of Sanguinius You can (literally) take as many half companies as you want The bonus is Zealot to half-strength units. Frankly, I think BDC is pretty sucky.

Don't know if it was mentioned before - SR's for vehicles:

Vindicator: 3 Vindi = Linebreaker (all fire together for apoc blast and ignores cover)
Whirlwind: 3 WW = Pinning and Shried
Land Speeder: 3 LS = additional 6" when flat out
Predator: 3 Pred = Killlshot (MH and TH)
Baal Pred = 3 BP = wall of firepower - reroll to wound of 1

No points changes

 maku wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 tkni wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
No one posting things on the DC Chaplain?
I at least wanna see a pic or someone Typing out the rules and Upgrades...

Comes with a jump pack and melta pistol for a shade more than the loadout would usually cost, gets Astorath's rule and is afaik the only model that can take the DC relics.

Reg Chaplains can take the relics via the Command in the DC Detachment

Now is more Customization worth it for no Reroll to wound?

Eh, Ill see if 10 DC with Boltguns and High Chaplain Thulsa Kane in a Stormraven goes anywhere
Its probably better anyway

Thulsa Kane isn't a Blood Angels character, additionally he only affects models from the base Space Marines Codex and units with the Chapter Tactics: Executioners.

I could have sworn that I saw a listing for a Devestator repack with the Blood Angels sprue, am I just crazy?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex.

Yes, because Objective Secured is the sole reason regular Marine demi-companies are amongst the best thing in the game and losing it makes them the worst?

Your histrionics don't impress anyone.

It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Not only that, but the Blood Angels "chapter tactics" if you will - benefit those Demi units the least. Just SM chapter tactics ALONE make those units better, even before the things you've listed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex.

Yes, because Objective Secured is the sole reason regular Marine demi-companies are amongst the best thing in the game and losing it makes them the worst?

Your histrionics don't impress anyone.

I see your point, but really the tax on the Demi company is pretty significant as if you're not getting any obsec from there you're not getting it at all. Whereas I would argue that the demi company literally fills that role in space marine armies. missing it on one or two units wouldn't be a big deal, but not having it at all is actually a big loss

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Thulsa Kane isn't a Blood Angels character, additionally he only affects models from the base Space Marines Codex and units with the Chapter Tactics: Executioners.

But then again he still IS a chaplain, and has Zealot

And he's 190pts, plus cost of what ever allied formation you bring in order to get him. Combined with the high price of your Blood Angels formation. So not worth it over the basic Death Company Chaplain.

Unless you are running the Executioners as your primary detachment, in which case you still need to have a Death Company Chaplain to bring Death Company to support. And you'd still be better off running him with his own guys.

Come on. I can't get the DC Chappy w/o the jump pack? I want the re-roll to wound in a non-JP configuration. Is that too much to ask for?

Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

kryczek wrote:
Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

Seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Terminators that can assault or shoot twice on the deepstrike, Sanguinary Guard that can pick when they want to come in starting turn 2 and assault on the deepstrike, Death Company that can essentially assault turn 1, and Devastators that finally get grav make BA middle tier at worst. Lack of free transports and obsec is hardly the end of the world for BA.

kryczek wrote:
Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

It could be worse. You could be like Sisters of Battle. I am sure they would like any update at all right now.

*edit* Now all we have to do is vote with our wallet with the displeasure and not buy anything that is GW putting out that you don't like.

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

kryczek wrote:
Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

Seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Terminators that can assault or shoot twice on the deepstrike, Sanguinary Guard that can pick when they want to come in starting turn 2 and assault on the deepstrike, Death Company that can essentially assault turn 1, and Devastators that finally get grav make BA middle tier at worst. Lack of free transports and obsec is hardly the end of the world for BA.

This is basically how I feel. Not going to complain, since I feel every army should strive to be middle tier.

Seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Maybe so, I'll grant you that.

It could be worse. You could be like Sisters of Battle. I am sure they would like any update at all right now.

WD dex made me get rid of my sister's. It's up to their player's now to take that on.

I guess my frustration is borne from what i hoped was a BA supplement and what I got wasn't.

The Demi companies do well(very rarely win) because the mission structure of the tournaments supports that play style.

They emphasize things like objective secured or just having lots of units in general. They rely on people not having enough units to shoot them all.

What crushes them? Armies that can assault/multi assault because now they are fighting in two phases of the game, your turn and theirs.

By most metrics yes it is inferior, however everyone complains about he free stuff in the Demi company so why is more of that bad? Personally I would rather have as many books relatively close together in power so that it only takes alterations of the two or three outliers to bring e game into closer balance.

My wet dream was to have a DC dreadnought able to charge the turn he comes from the drop pod.
I then looked into this lost brotherhood detachment: someone in here said that you can potetintially do a first turn charge: maybe if you play against a new player, but at my local store my enemies would just place their whole army close to their table edge so that I won't be able to do this trick. The bad thing is that you are forced to take an additional DC chaplain and at least a DC dreddy who might be completely useless since none will ever put this poor guy in a drop pod and watch it die since he disembarks looks around and explode without doing anything.
I' ll try this anyway but I will then probably run a CAD without my beloved death company since it just make me feel so sad to watch it die without having a chance to charge anything.

BeeCee wrote:


It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Well, to stay fair and objective on that matter:
Gladius lists that simply spam Razorbacks and focus on layer-parking objectives without killing much arent the ones that win most games as they have hard times vs high output enemys (mainly Eldar and Tau but also Knights and Deamons too some degree) and are hopelessly lost in non-objective missions vs most enemies because they have virtually no output themselves.
What DOES win many games / is highly competitive are those White Scars Gladius lists spamming Gravcannon Tacticals/Devas in scouting Rhinos because they have ObSec, staying power AND aggressive output. It works so well because it combines aspects (ObSec, free transports, Chapter Tactics, special character warlord trait, unusual and expensive weapon choice for Tacs/Devas) to a strong synergy.
And it is not exclusivly due to the free transports... Medusa Strike Force with a single Demi (so no free transports) and double Skyhammers as Aux choices is very potent aswell and easily wracks havoc to a random Razorback-spam Gladius.

All that surely doesnt change the fact that BA Demi is very bad - but most SW core detachments and most of the chapter specific core detachments from AoD arent any good either and even the DA Demi -which does have ObSec AND free transports if doubled up- isnt exactly competitive... but thats no problem because those armies just utilize better formations/concepts (Wolfstar / Ravenwing) - and the same goes for BA...
If you want to play BA codex use the Detachments/Formations which are good and stop bitching about the ones that suck (not "you" personally, "you" the BA players)... Most SM Aux formations suck aswell so SM players just use the 1 or 2 which do not.
If you rather want to play BA models in a DC/BC just use the vanilla codex and add specific/stellar BA units via CAD/AD/Formation... its not like furious charge and +1 Ini are in any way usefull to most units a DC is made of!

highwind01 wrote:

BeeCee wrote:


It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Well, to stay fair and objective on that matter:
Gladius lists that simply spam Razorbacks and focus on layer-parking objectives without killing much arent the ones that win most games as they have hard times vs high output enemys (mainly Eldar and Tau but also Knights and Deamons too some degree) and are hopelessly lost in non-objective missions vs most enemies because they have virtually no output themselves.
What DOES win many games / is highly competitive are those White Scars Gladius lists spamming Gravcannon Tacticals/Devas in scouting Rhinos because they have ObSec, staying power AND aggressive output. It works so well because it combines aspects (ObSec, free transports, Chapter Tactics, special character warlord trait, unusual and expensive weapon choice for Tacs/Devas) to a strong synergy.
And it is not exclusivly due to the free transports... Medusa Strike Force with a single Demi (so no free transports) and double Skyhammers as Aux choices is very potent aswell and easily wracks havoc to a random Razorback-spam Gladius.

All that surely doesnt change the fact that BA Demi is very bad - but most SW core detachments and most of the chapter specific core detachments from AoD arent any good either and even the DA Demi -which does have ObSec AND free transports if doubled up- isnt exactly competitive... but thats no problem because those armies just utilize better formations/concepts (Wolfstar / Ravenwing) - and the same goes for BA...
If you want to play BA codex use the Detachments/Formations which are good and stop bitching about the ones that suck (not "you" personally, "you" the BA players)... Most SM Aux formations suck aswell so SM players just use the 1 or 2 which do not.
If you rather want to play BA models in a DC/BC just use the vanilla codex and add specific/stellar BA units via CAD/AD/Formation... its not like furious charge and +1 Ini are in any way usefull to most units a DC is made of!

What are the list building rules around bolting an orbital strike force (say) onto a gladius? (In addition to all the gladius requirements?

Meanwhile, pretty pictures:





The best part about that second picture is how literally everything in it is a kit that GW sells. So creative. Much freedom. Wow.

I dunno H.B.M.C., I'm pretty sure the Space Marine statue getting zapped by lightening is different to the one GW sells.

I hope the artist was fired for that. Not doing their job correctly by showing inspiration for conversions and scratch builds!

Wow, the artist really captured the awesomeness of the mutilators, you can practically hear the grrrrs and rawgs......

I love how the Sanguinor in the background of the second picture looks like he just disarmed the Lord of Skulls.

Wish my Sanguinor was that cool.

Personally, I think the Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard should be much more powerful They should be nigh impossible to kill.

highwind01 wrote:

BeeCee wrote:


It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Well, to stay fair and objective on that matter:
Gladius lists that simply spam Razorbacks and focus on layer-parking objectives without killing much arent the ones that win most games as they have hard times vs high output enemys (mainly Eldar and Tau but also Knights and Deamons too some degree) and are hopelessly lost in non-objective missions vs most enemies because they have virtually no output themselves.
What DOES win many games / is highly competitive are those White Scars Gladius lists spamming Gravcannon Tacticals/Devas in scouting Rhinos because they have ObSec, staying power AND aggressive output. It works so well because it combines aspects (ObSec, free transports, Chapter Tactics, special character warlord trait, unusual and expensive weapon choice for Tacs/Devas) to a strong synergy.
And it is not exclusivly due to the free transports... Medusa Strike Force with a single Demi (so no free transports) and double Skyhammers as Aux choices is very potent aswell and easily wracks havoc to a random Razorback-spam Gladius.

All that surely doesnt change the fact that BA Demi is very bad - but most SW core detachments and most of the chapter specific core detachments from AoD arent any good either and even the DA Demi -which does have ObSec AND free transports if doubled up- isnt exactly competitive... but thats no problem because those armies just utilize better formations/concepts (Wolfstar / Ravenwing) - and the same goes for BA...
If you want to play BA codex use the Detachments/Formations which are good and stop bitching about the ones that suck (not "you" personally, "you" the BA players)... Most SM Aux formations suck aswell so SM players just use the 1 or 2 which do not.
If you rather want to play BA models in a DC/BC just use the vanilla codex and add specific/stellar BA units via CAD/AD/Formation... its not like furious charge and +1 Ini are in any way usefull to most units a DC is made of!

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

BeeCee wrote:
I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

Yeah, pretty much that

I don't even need that competitive -- as long as they're not so uncompetitive that people pity me, I'm okay with it

\When I want to play red ultramarines, that's easy enough So in the BA codex, I want something unique, playable, fluffy, and fun.

I'm liking most of the formations, pretty useful but not too powerful - what formations should be.

My problem with BA at the minute come from my analytical nature, it just annoys me when I think about taking Vanguard Veteran for instance (a very BA unit) then I realise I'm paying an extra 50pts for a power weapon squad, or terminators that are a base 25pts more expensive. With todays mix and match, take what you fancy approach to army building there really is no reason to take units like these :(

I think the strike force problems are just pure shut rules writing on GW behalf, there is no excuse for having the formation double up on rules, having no obsec and no double Demi bonus. I don't want free transports, they are bad for the game but there has to be some kind of bonus for taking such a restrictive set of units and something that makes them cool. The space marine gladius (free points included) may be a cheesy powerhouse but it makes for a fluffy as hell army the brings a whole set of rarely seen models to the table, was hoping for the BA one to do the same but I suspect with the way it is written it will never be used :(

 Talys wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

Yeah, pretty much that

I don't even need that competitive -- as long as they're not so uncompetitive that people pity me, I'm okay with it

\When I want to play red ultramarines, that's easy enough So in the BA codex, I want something unique, playable, fluffy, and fun.

I kind of feel the opposite really, I don't care too much about how competitive the book is, and DC build is a very flavorful niche army - but otherwise that Demi tax, the "Red Ultramarines" tax if you will is just too big.

Once you're done filling out that Red Ultramarines tax there isn't much room left to include "Blood Angels" units.

This book will be amazing for Apocalypse, but I've been building lists for the last couple days - it's real difficult to build a BA flavor list under 2000 points.

I'm still thankful for this update, but I feel that if you aren't doing Death Company then you're forced to do weaker Red Ultramarines at 1500 points.

So for those that have seen it or read french does the golden host formation get to assault from deepstrike?

Yup, disorderly charge but still cool.

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

I disagree, even tho I enjoy the book I STILL feel like I'm playing a "worse" red ultramarines. Why? Well because Blood Angels are supposed to be one of the best chapters at lightning assaults that make use of their assault bonuses.

Yet, 997 chapters get Skyhammer Annihilation Force which allows for assault after deep strike AND no disordered charge. Ravenguard get to use their jump packs for assault AND movement and also get a formation that allows them to assault after deep strike with no penalties

Not only does that reduce the attacks it also takes away furious charge and the already terrible bonus of Red Thirst. So we go in the fluff to one of the best assault chapters to one of the worst because the other 997 get to use Codex: SM :p

.

 Kirasu wrote:

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

I disagree, even tho I enjoy the book I STILL Feel like i'm playing a "worse" red ultramarines. Why? Well because Blood Angels are supposed to be one of the best chapters at lightning assaults that make use of their assault bonuses.

Yet, 997 chapters get Skyhammer Annihilation Force which allows for assault after deep strike AND no disordered charge. Ravenguard get to use their jump packs for assault AND movement and also get a formation that allows them to assault after deep strike with no penalties

Not only does that reduce the attacks it also takes away furious charge and the already terrible bonus of Red Thirst. So we go in the fluff to one of the best assault chapters to one of the worst because the other 997 get to use Codex: SM :p

.

The thing is we do have some great lightning assault options in this book, the problem is you need to flush out an entire "red ultramarines" army to get there, leaving you very little precious room for those lightning assault units.

I get it we have good assault units, except they ALL suffer penalties for using their abilities where as other generic chapters don't have any penalties.

That's my point is all.

I don't even play Blood Angels and I still think you were robbed. If they weren't going to give you Objsec. They could have dropped that dis-ordered charge non-sense. Maybe granted Rage & Zealot below 50% strength. GW still seems to think Assault is somehow overpowering. Assault units don't get grenades, not allowing assault from Deep Strike or Outflanking, no Running & Charging, , no consolidating into new combats, etc.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

I disagree, even tho I enjoy the book I STILL Feel like i'm playing a "worse" red ultramarines. Why? Well because Blood Angels are supposed to be one of the best chapters at lightning assaults that make use of their assault bonuses.

Yet, 997 chapters get Skyhammer Annihilation Force which allows for assault after deep strike AND no disordered charge. Ravenguard get to use their jump packs for assault AND movement and also get a formation that allows them to assault after deep strike with no penalties

Not only does that reduce the attacks it also takes away furious charge and the already terrible bonus of Red Thirst. So we go in the fluff to one of the best assault chapters to one of the worst because the other 997 get to use Codex: SM :p

.

The thing is we do have some great lightning assault options in this book, the problem is you need to flush out an entire "red ultramarines" army to get there, leaving you very little precious room for those lightning assault units.

You forget the Archangels core. it lets you play a very different army if that's what you want.
Its not cheap, in fact its even more expensive, but it sure is unique to revolve your army around the first company, rather than settle for first company taskforce most do.

No you're right and in fact that is similar to the lists I've been running lately using the Archangels Strike Force detachment (from Exterminatus)... but it is CRAZY expensive, leaves no room for the 'super formations' and is also very challenging to build a 'balanced' list.

This codex is made for Apocalypse... and it will be awesome for that.

So blood angels need to simply tell themselves they are the ones you turn to when you need to deal with the SERIOUS threat then?


honestly a bit like the cadian MFD then, its great but suffers from being aimed at games too big.