Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So?
Just merge the Xenos ones instead.
yeah I mean Eldar and dark eldar aren't that differant, I mean, they're both elves! that's as much in common as grey knights and sisters of battle have.
MERGE THE ELDAR CODICES!
To be fair, they probably should (though without losing models/rules!).
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So?
Just merge the Xenos ones instead.
yeah I mean Eldar and dark eldar aren't that differant, I mean, they're both elves! that's as much in common as grey knights and sisters of battle have.
MERGE THE ELDAR CODICES!
To be fair, they probably should (though without losing models/rules!).
One of the consolidation areas that makes a lot of sense actually. Between all the allies systems since 6th and the creation of the Ynarri we've been trending that way for a while.
bullyboy wrote: Not to mention the Duty Eternal Strat is the pre-FAQ one. It's only -1D now, not half.
Does this mean that its already outdated before the WD is released ? Was the WD already printed before they nerfed it ?
Of course. White Dwarf tends to have a lead time of 4-6 months, roughly. Those Deathwatch rules were almost certainly written pre-Christmas (if not actually written side-by-side with the Marine Codex and simply shelfed until there was a slot).
bullyboy wrote: Not to mention the Duty Eternal Strat is the pre-FAQ one. It's only -1D now, not half.
Does this mean that its already outdated before the WD is released ? Was the WD already printed before they nerfed it ?
Would they even need to add the errata to the DW version? They don't even have Techmarines to heal up wounds on dreads, and as good as it is, a Leviathan is still a huge chunk of a DW army, as the Heavy Support tax to take them really hurts (no thunderfire, no eliminators; just rapier carriers as the only cheap tax item).
And they could AT LEAST have added some kind of strat or something to make the one unique vehicle they have (corvus blackstar) better, because that thing is an expensive turd.
The best thing to come of this might possibly be Terminators, actually. In DW you can equip them a ton more flexibly. Throw in some storm shields with whatever you need and pop the veterans strat. Should add a pretty good chunk of survivability for a unit that doesn't need to pay CP to deepstrike in the army, which is a great thinig.
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So?
Just merge the Xenos ones instead.
One could argue that Harlequins and the Ynarri special characters (and some generic options for them) could be a codex itself though. Treat Ynarri like you would Inquisitors, basically. That's one form of consolidation and a good one at that. Meanwhile, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch don't really have so many unqiue entries that they need to be separate codices themselves. I mean come on, Seraphim AND Zeraphim are separate units? Really?
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So?
Just merge the Xenos ones instead.
One could argue that Harlequins and the Ynarri special characters (and some generic options for them) could be a codex itself though. Treat Ynarri like you would Inquisitors, basically. That's one form of consolidation and a good one at that. Meanwhile, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch don't really have so many unqiue entries that they need to be separate codices themselves. I mean come on, Seraphim AND Zeraphim are separate units? Really?
other then having jump packs there isn't a lot in common between the two units slayer-fan.
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So?
Just merge the Xenos ones instead.
One could argue that Harlequins and the Ynarri special characters (and some generic options for them) could be a codex itself though. Treat Ynarri like you would Inquisitors, basically. That's one form of consolidation and a good one at that. Meanwhile, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch don't really have so many unqiue entries that they need to be separate codices themselves. I mean come on, Seraphim AND Zeraphim are separate units? Really?
other then having jump packs there isn't a lot in common between the two units slayer-fan.
now stop trying to hijack this thread
LOL okay and Dreads and Ironclads should totally be different units too.
Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
zend wrote: Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
but in reality, all terminators should be like Deathwing...able to mix and match assault and tactical. One entry, no problems.
zend wrote: Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
but in reality, all terminators should be like Deathwing...able to mix and match assault and tactical. One entry, no problems.
zend wrote: Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
Yes those two weapons would clog everything so much, including all those options that the other Terminators have...
Sterling191 wrote: Theyre the Orders Militant of the three major Inquisition branches.
For one whole edition lol.
They started as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. After Inquisitor the 54mm game, they added some flimsy justification for them being the Order Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. They basically never used that fluff afterward. Nothing in the current codex speaks about this.
So...
yeah GW's been explictly moving AWAY from the "flunkies of the inqusition" since 6th edition or so
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So is having Deathwatch and Grey Knights.
Getting rid of bloat is fine but let's not pretend that Sisters are a good example of it.
zend wrote: Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
Anybody calling for giant consolidation should read the Carnifex unit entry. You need a PHD to understand whats going on there without using battlescribe.
Sterling191 wrote: Theyre the Orders Militant of the three major Inquisition branches.
For one whole edition lol.
They started as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. After Inquisitor the 54mm game, they added some flimsy justification for them being the Order Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. They basically never used that fluff afterward. Nothing in the current codex speaks about this.
So...
yeah GW's been explictly moving AWAY from the "flunkies of the inqusition" since 6th edition or so
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So is having Deathwatch and Grey Knights.
Getting rid of bloat is fine but let's not pretend that Sisters are a good example of it.
If we're eliminating bloat it starts and ends with marines. There's half a dozen totally unnecessary codexes with another half dozen completely superfluous supplements in kicking around now.
You could get rid of half of all the books in the game by just bringing marines down to something reasonable.
zend wrote: Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
Anybody calling for giant consolidation should read the Carnifex unit entry. You need a PHD to understand whats going on there without using battlescribe.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
What bloat of codex? Unlike for loyalist marines where you combine the same entries (repulsors are repulsors are repulsors, intercessors are intercessors are intercessors, ...) here you just take different units and put them in the same book. Same number of datasheets, just less books. No use.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I mean come on, Seraphim AND Zeraphim are separate units? Really?
Can you believe that Chaos Space Marine squads and Havocs squads are separate units? Really?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
What bloat of codex? Unlike for loyalist marines where you combine the same entries (repulsors are repulsors are repulsors, intercessors are intercessors are intercessors, ...) here you just take different units and put them in the same book. Same number of datasheets, just less books. No use.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I mean come on, Seraphim AND Zeraphim are separate units? Really?
Can you believe that Chaos Space Marine squads and Havocs squads are separate units? Really?
You're always some martyr for Sisters I swear. You already know I'm for eliminating certain codices and consolidation of unit entries.
zend wrote: Yes, they should. Just like Terminators and Assault Terminators should remain separate. Cramming a bunch of text on a single data sheet isn’t less bloat, it’s just more annoying. Same with having to flip through a couple hundred pages of stuff unrelated to your army if codexes are consolidated.
but in reality, all terminators should be like Deathwing...able to mix and match assault and tactical. One entry, no problems.
That would indeed be preferable!
Agreed but then there is the false oh but its so Deathwatch unique which helps justify their own codex.}
Dysartes wrote: Never let it be said that, when it comes to updates, GW doesn't do the least it can do.
Or as I like to put it:
GW never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity!
"GW gonna GW".
It is just a bit pf a kick in the pants that tthe first part of the "big reveal" is DW getting the Angels of Death rules when DW has had those rules since GW released the non-vanilla-marine errata right after Codex 2.0 dropped, and then had to have an errata because Bolter Drill and SIA were too strong together.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're always some martyr for Sisters I swear. You already know I'm for eliminating certain codices and consolidation of unit entries.
And how do you plan to consolidate a Sister unit and a Grey Knight or Deathwatch or Inquisition unit together exactly?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I mean come on, Seraphim AND Zeraphim are separate units? Really?
Can you believe that Chaos Space Marine squads and Havocs squads are separate units? Really?
Is there even one datasheet that can be different battlefield role depending on equipment? Plus alternative special rules depending on wargears.
Hey let's consolidiate space marine captain and chaplain and terminator librarian. Oh and tactical marines and infiltrators and scouts, assault marines and devastators can be same datasheet. Rhino, predator, razorback and land raider can be same as well!
Am I missing something or are a lot of people upset about what may or may not be in the WD article based solely on the preview? Not trying to me facetious, just genuinely curious.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Am I missing something or are a lot of people upset about what may or may not be in the WD article based solely on the preview? Not trying to me facetious, just genuinely curious.
It may well be too early to call it, but the initial announcement of a WD rules release for 2 factions at once essentially confirms that both DW and Harlies are getting a very light touch update (based on how much can fit in a single WD). The latest tease on Warhammer Community essentially confirms that DW are getting a copy paste of generic rules that are the new standard for marines (doctrines and strats), all but confirming that vanguard marines are not being inducted into DW (as you won't get all the datasheets into a WD, and very few of the vanguard marines can be modelled with a DW shoulderpad, so no model no rules).
Lord Blackscale wrote: Am I missing something or are a lot of people upset about what may or may not be in the WD article based solely on the preview? Not trying to me facetious, just genuinely curious.
Well, obviously I cannot speak for everyone, but for me it comes down to several factors.
Although the new bonuses will improve the play of the Deathwatch, I wanted some more inspiration for the army in PA.
With it being a WD article we knew there would not be a new model coming, which would have been nice, but other lines need more (although forgive me for not seeing why a new Fabius Bile was needed, or why Knights, Chaos Knights needed anything in a book instead of a WD article over Deathwatch and Harlequins).
The biggest thing I believe people wanted was the addition of a Vanguard kill team and associated units. Trouble is, I can see why GW won't do this at this time (but will do so in the future).
Unit availability. Incursors, Infiltrators and Reivers are already good to go and take a DW shoulder pad no problem. But what about the rest of the kits?
None of the characters currently work for Deathwatch, but you can easily make a Phobos Captain from Reivers and parts from the Eliminator kit (except GW is reluctant to do the kitbash method these days)
Suppressors need a kit before they can take a DW shoulder pad, and would make an integral part of a Vanguard kill team (allowing for fall back and shoot, stopping overwatch, etc)
Eliminators also have issues with shoulder pads (DW ones would need to be trimmed), but don't necessarily need to translate over to Deathwatch anyway.
Invictor warsuits are an easy shoe in, should be added.
Impulsors...not sure if needed really, but easy inclusion.
So basically holding this back is a suitable character and a suppressor kit, Both could be solved in the future but was not going to happen in a WD.
So what are we getting?
Litanies are definitely a bonus as you don't see Chaplains frequently in Deathwatch armies right now. +1 to hit litany definitely useful (doesn't have to be vs closest target).
Doctrines are a shady choice, depending how they work (if at all) with SIA. GW already reeled back on Bolter Discipline, might do the same for Doctrines. Still, it helps for Aggressors, Inceptors, Turn 1 Missile launchers, frag cannons, etc. I will be curious to see how this is implemented.
The base strats will also be welcome, but some are very niche,
What we don't get currently are improvements to what Deathwatch players have been asking for for a long time. The Corvus Blackstar needs significant improvement, but now will probably have to pay 1CP each turn to not get move and fire penalty (assuming we get Big Guns Never Tire). Duty Eternal needs to change to match current ruling and not great for Deathwatch anyway.
(I will caveat that I don't have any FW in my Deathwatch, so none of my notes here takes that into consideration)
DW can get some use out of strats though as they can farm CPs with Lord of Hidden Knowledge (most oft used warlord trait) and adding a Xenos Inquisitor with Esoteric Knowledge warlord trait. This should yield roughly a CP a turn back.
So for the most part, most are pissed because there is very little effort applied. Nothing new added to a limited line of options with much of the codex ignored.
They could have at least added a deathwatch specific litany, or a super doctrine. Let's at least hope there is a strat to combat GSC (currently lacking), but I do not expect that to happen at all.
Ultimately, my wish list? I want to see a Vanguard kill team, Vanguard HQ choice and a new Corvus like flyer to transport them. I feel I will be waiting a long time.
In the meantime, I'll use my Ravenguard phobos dudes inside a Corvus equivalent for narrative play stuff.
I absolutely hate that they thought it was some great idea to advertise the Vanguard Reinforcements for Killteam with a guy that made them Deathwatch and then not actually allow for them to be used in DEATHWATCH! Interestingly enough, at this point, they didn’t include the Supressor in the White Dwarf, so you have to wonder if when (if ever) we do get a Vanguard Killteam for Deathwatch in 40K and Killteam, will it actually include the Supressor?
Smaug wrote: I doubt this, but maybe the data sheets for the vanguard units will be released as website downloads.
Riiiight. They will release new models and have them in website release. Yep. Sounds plausible.
Remember: No model, no rules. You need vanquards with deathwatch shoulder pads for rules.
Any reason the existing shoulder pads won't fit on infiltrators? If you're saying its because there isn't a phobos shoulder, maybe they need to take reivers out the army.
Most of the deathwatch units don’t have deathwatch shoulder pads included. If you want deathwatch terminators, or bikes or vanguard veterans, you have to purchase an upgrade kit on top...
If shoulder pads fit some of the vanguard kits, those kits just need an upgrade spruce added.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Most of the deathwatch units don’t have deathwatch shoulder pads included. If you want deathwatch terminators, or bikes or vanguard veterans, you have to purchase an upgrade kit on top...
If shoulder pads fit some of the vanguard kits, those kits just need an upgrade spruce added.
That bolded part is the killer. They don't. The pads aren't replacable. You can add upgrade kit but it's not much of help because YOU CANNOT PUT THEM THERE. Not without scratch building with knife and GW doesn't support rules if you need to scratch build. They rather remove entry from brand new codex rather than leave it even though it's ridiculously easy kitbash(add spare bolter and cut off plasma pistol...) which people already had done assuming their brand new codex would be reliable.
No models, no rules. Unless GW releases new sprue with deathwatch marked replacement parts no luck.
Sucks but that's how GW operates. Expecting rules without models is just setting yourself for dissapointment. If you can't build something from gw kits you can't have rules for it.
I want to put this to bed. YES YOU CAN. Incursors, Reivers, Infiltrators all have the same pads. The deathwatch pad fits on the left arm, where it's supposed to go, without any knife work. There is no reason whatsoever, from a modelling perspective, to exlcude phobos marines from DW. As bullyboy pointed out, there is a problem with phobos characters however, because they are single-pose models. How do you think us DW players have been running Reivers for the past two years?
grouchoben wrote: I want to put this to bed. YES YOU CAN. Incursors, Reivers, Infiltrators all have the same pads. The deathwatch pad fits on the left arm, where it's supposed to go, without any knife work. There is no reason whatsoever, from a modelling perspective, to exlcude phobos marines from DW. As bullyboy pointed out, there is a problem with phobos characters however, because they are single-pose models. How do you think us DW players have been running Reivers for the past two years?
From a modelling perspective you are right - the multi part incursor/infiltrators could easily be given a shoulder pad and therefore make the cut. But from a rules perspective this is much less likely to happen, things like the comms array would not function due to no model no rules on the related officers so a simple copy paste of the datasheets wouldn't work. If by some miracle new multi part models do appear and everything ports over to DW the idea of either a vanguard kill team or new phobos units in the old intercessor kill team creates a bit of a rules headache as passing concealed positions on to other dudes would likely be deemed too strong, and the interaction of phobos psychic powers/warlord traits with mixed squads will create problems - the most likely scenario is these units will just not appear in DW as they cannot function without alteration to rules and currently there are no variances between generic units cross codices.
Insularum wrote: ]From a modelling perspective you are right - the multi part incursor/infiltrators could easily be given a shoulder pad and therefore make the cut. But from a rules perspective this is much less likely to happen, things like the comms array would not function due to no model no rules on the related officers so a simple copy paste of the datasheets wouldn't work. If by some miracle new multi part models do appear and everything ports over to DW the idea of either a vanguard kill team or new phobos units in the old intercessor kill team creates a bit of a rules headache as passing concealed positions on to other dudes would likely be deemed too strong, and the interaction of phobos psychic powers/warlord traits with mixed squads will create problems - the most likely scenario is these units will just not appear in DW as they cannot function without alteration to rules and currently there are no variances between generic units cross codices.
So lets's get this straight, the reason that rules dont exist is because it would take a modicum of effort to actually write them?
grouchoben wrote: I want to put this to bed. YES YOU CAN. Incursors, Reivers, Infiltrators all have the same pads. The deathwatch pad fits on the left arm, where it's supposed to go, without any knife work. There is no reason whatsoever, from a modelling perspective, to exlcude phobos marines from DW. As bullyboy pointed out, there is a problem with phobos characters however, because they are single-pose models. How do you think us DW players have been running Reivers for the past two years?
From a modelling perspective you are right - the multi part incursor/infiltrators could easily be given a shoulder pad and therefore make the cut. But from a rules perspective this is much less likely to happen, things like the comms array would not function due to no model no rules on the related officers so a simple copy paste of the datasheets wouldn't work. If by some miracle new multi part models do appear and everything ports over to DW the idea of either a vanguard kill team or new phobos units in the old intercessor kill team creates a bit of a rules headache as passing concealed positions on to other dudes would likely be deemed too strong, and the interaction of phobos psychic powers/warlord traits with mixed squads will create problems - the most likely scenario is these units will just not appear in DW as they cannot function without alteration to rules and currently there are no variances between generic units cross codices.
yeah, I'm not buying that at all. A vanguard kill-team would require a single entry, just like current vets and Intercessors in deathwatch. The first choice would be which specialist do they feel is the core? Incursors, or Infiltrators? The best solution would be to make it a purely choice of one or the other, so you have your first 5 marines. You could add Reivers, Suppressors and more infiltrators or incursors.
As for rules, Concealed Positions (gives a new element to deathwatch), Smoke grenades applies to all.
Then you have the specific rules for each element: Infiltrators allow Omni Scramblers (measure from infil only), Coms Array (only if they make a DW Lt or Captain...even though you can do this yourself with the Infil kits...but I get it, no model no rules, so just don't have Comms Array as an option, same as helix adept as that is only available in ETB anyway). Incursors allow use of haywire mine and multi-spectrum array. Suppressors get Suppressing Fire. Reiver as normal.
This is of course waiting for the Suppressor kit. i don't see the point of adding a kill team without option for something like this to be added.
Its amusing amidst all this to do with Deathwatch that there has still been no official word about the necrons. I mean even when they revealed Pariah I dont think they actually mentioned necrons being in the book did they? We are all just assuming they will be?
I mean at least Harlequins and Deathwatch know where their rules are going to be!
Sterling191 wrote:So lets's get this straight, the reason that rules dont exist is because it would take a modicum of effort to actually write them?
That's a sack of crap.
The amount of effort isn't really a factor, in general models precede rules which currently excludes most phobos units, and going simply by GW's track record on every other cross-codex unit/wargear/stratagem if the units are not aligned they won't be copied over. Currently this means only incursors as a unit has both compliant models and a compatible datasheet, but as they come in a dual purpose kit I reckon it's very unlikely to happen right now. It sucks, but when trying to second guess GW you have to look at their recent behaviour.
bullyboy wrote:yeah, I'm not buying that at all. A vanguard kill-team would require a single entry, just like current vets and Intercessors in deathwatch. The first choice would be which specialist do they feel is the core? Incursors, or Infiltrators? The best solution would be to make it a purely choice of one or the other, so you have your first 5 marines. You could add Reivers, Suppressors and more infiltrators or incursors.
As for rules, Concealed Positions (gives a new element to deathwatch), Smoke grenades applies to all.
Then you have the specific rules for each element: Infiltrators allow Omni Scramblers (measure from infil only), Coms Array (only if they make a DW Lt or Captain...even though you can do this yourself with the Infil kits...but I get it, no model no rules, so just don't have Comms Array as an option, same as helix adept as that is only available in ETB anyway). Incursors allow use of haywire mine and multi-spectrum array. Suppressors get Suppressing Fire. Reiver as normal.
This is of course waiting for the Suppressor kit. i don't see the point of adding a kill team without option for something like this to be added.
I would love to see this happen, I just don't think that it will.
I'm a huge DW fan. They've been my army since before there was a codex. I want the Vanguard units as much as the rest of you. However, I don't think this update is a disaster if we don't get the Vanguard units.
Updated litanies, stratagems, and combat doctrines will do incredible things for the competitiveness of DW. These new elements combined with SIA, unique weapon options/unit builds, everything is a veteran, mission tactics, the existing stratagem doctrines, and access to teleportation really make the army incredibly versatile and powerful. If we also get SIA stacking with Bolter Discipline and the new wording/costs for the librarian discipline, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with what this update is doing for the competitiveness of DW even without getting Vanguard units.
Did I want more, yes. I still have to warsuits new in packaging waiting for the day they become available for DW. But, I feel like we're forgetting just how nasty DW's unique rules are.
Don't call me Heretic, as I am also a DW player... but just out of curiosity: Who said that there should be a special Vanguard Kill Team?
In my Head it always was "OldMarines vs Primaris". Since Vanguards are Primaris, too, they may be integrated in the Fortis Kill Teams (which already include Vanguard-type marines with the Reivers) or just left being separate units on their own.
And that last point could be one sentence as it was done with BA/DA/SW
greyknight12 wrote: Yeah if people don’t think that combat doctrines stacking with SIA is going to be a massive boost...the those people are wrong.
Given Bolter Discipline didn't stack with SIA, I wouldn't take it for granted that they'll stack properly with the Combat Doctrines, regardless of what the article implies.
Not allowing the Impulsor, at the very least, is a weird choice - it'd help whatever-the-Primaris-kill-team-is-called with their mobility.
Pyrosphere wrote: Don't call me Heretic, as I am also a DW player... but just out of curiosity: Who said that there should be a special Vanguard Kill Team?
In my Head it always was "OldMarines vs Primaris". Since Vanguards are Primaris, too, they may be integrated in the Fortis Kill Teams (which already include Vanguard-type marines with the Reivers) or just left being separate units on their own.
And that last point could be one sentence as it was done with BA/DA/SW
That would be so gross. They have been making a difference between Aquila, Furor, Venator, Dominator, and Malleus Killteams, then throw in Fortis as a generic Primaris catch-all.
Pyrosphere wrote:Don't call me Heretic, as I am also a DW player... but just out of curiosity: Who said that there should be a special Vanguard Kill Team?
In my Head it always was "OldMarines vs Primaris". Since Vanguards are Primaris, too, they may be integrated in the Fortis Kill Teams (which already include Vanguard-type marines with the Reivers) or just left being separate units on their own.
And that last point could be one sentence as it was done with BA/DA/SW
The Intercessor (Fortis Kill team) datasheet is already massive. Its far simpler, more thematic, and from a balance perspective safer, to structure them within a discrete separate unit.
lifeafter wrote:I'm a huge DW fan. They've been my army since before there was a codex. I want the Vanguard units as much as the rest of you. However, I don't think this update is a disaster if we don't get the Vanguard units.
Updated litanies, stratagems, and combat doctrines will do incredible things for the competitiveness of DW. These new elements combined with SIA, unique weapon options/unit builds, everything is a veteran, mission tactics, the existing stratagem doctrines, and access to teleportation really make the army incredibly versatile and powerful. If we also get SIA stacking with Bolter Discipline and the new wording/costs for the librarian discipline, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with what this update is doing for the competitiveness of DW even without getting Vanguard units.
Did I want more, yes. I still have to warsuits new in packaging waiting for the day they become available for DW. But, I feel like we're forgetting just how nasty DW's unique rules are.
You're exceptionally optimistic if you think any of what you stated is going to happen.
Insularum wrote: The amount of effort isn't really a factor, in general models precede rules which currently excludes most phobos units, and going simply by GW's track record on every other cross-codex unit/wargear/stratagem if the units are not aligned they won't be copied over. Currently this means only incursors as a unit has both compliant models and a compatible datasheet, but as they come in a dual purpose kit I reckon it's very unlikely to happen right now. It sucks, but when trying to second guess GW you have to look at their recent behaviour.
GW have had more than a year to get their gak together with regards to Phobos units.
As for Pariah, I expect a very big deal for Necrons, including a new model. There just isn't anything else that can be added, unless they are releasing a brand new army in the near future. It's the last book in the series so will need some kind of bang/cliffhanger, so it will be interesting to see what's up. Might get some kind of inkling in the reveal this weekend (although doubtful with how poor they've been so far).
Yes, I think what I want is optimistic. It's what I hope for, not necessarily what I expect.
What I I'm now for sure expecting is what's already been announced. And what's been announced is good, with the potential of being great depending on the final verdicts of how the new doctrines and bolter discipline will interact with SIA.
The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.
lifeafter wrote: I'm a huge DW fan. They've been my army since before there was a codex. I want the Vanguard units as much as the rest of you. However, I don't think this update is a disaster if we don't get the Vanguard units.
Updated litanies, stratagems, and combat doctrines will do incredible things for the competitiveness of DW. These new elements combined with SIA, unique weapon options/unit builds, everything is a veteran, mission tactics, the existing stratagem doctrines, and access to teleportation really make the army incredibly versatile and powerful. If we also get SIA stacking with Bolter Discipline and the new wording/costs for the librarian discipline, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with what this update is doing for the competitiveness of DW even without getting Vanguard units.
Did I want more, yes. I still have to warsuits new in packaging waiting for the day they become available for DW. But, I feel like we're forgetting just how nasty DW's unique rules are.
Like I said upthread, -1 and transhuman on our DS aggressors, and chaplain +1 to wound stacking with our strat, will be our biggest takeaways from this by the looks of it. Doctrines will make the biggest difference to our t2 DS forces, benefitting from tactical doctrine.
But that's pretty much it, in terms of competitiveness. If you think nullzone going from 8 to 7 is gona save the Watch, think again.
Alpharius wrote: This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...
Are you talking about the phobos libby or some such? Because the Incursors Infiltrators Invictors and Impulsors are all perfectly DW compatible right now.
Alpharius wrote: This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...
I think that’s a poor excuse. Reivers, Infiltrators, and Incursors are all ready to go.
Eliminators have the pad sculpted on/covered by cloak? I look at my Militarum Tempestus Scions kit, and all the cables are sculpted on the power packs. What does the instruction booklet tell me to do if I want to equip a Scion with a non-hot-shot weapon that doesn’t use a cable, like plasma, melta, or grenade launcher? It tells me to clip the cable off!
Hey speaking of pariahs, someone told me that the necrons created the pariah gene in humans a long time ago. Is this still canon? How'd they do it while they were still taking their log nap?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still refuse to use Eliminators and Suppressors until I can use them as bigger than groups of 3.
Yeah, why the heck did they do this? I converted up a unit of 6 Suppressors before the models or rules were released because I liked the concept of jump pack autocannons. No other infantry unit in the game is limited to what comes in the box for unit size. Having a unit cap of 6 would hardly be broken. Although I don't want any more, releasing a multipart plastic kit would also be nice.
Alpharius wrote: This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...
I think that’s a poor excuse. Reivers, Infiltrators, and Incursors are all ready to go.
Eliminators have the pad sculpted on/covered by cloak? I look at my Militarum Tempestus Scions kit, and all the cables are sculpted on the power packs. What does the instruction booklet tell me to do if I want to equip a Scion with a non-hot-shot weapon that doesn’t use a cable, like plasma, melta, or grenade launcher? It tells me to clip the cable off!
Yeah I'm sorry, where is the separate Dark Angels incursor set? Where is the separate Blood Angels invictus warsuit? Why are people acting like a kit that's already available to 5 codexes somehow would violate NMNR if it went to a sixth?
Alpharius wrote: This is definitely when this awful "No model, no rules" thing is going to hurt...
I think that’s a poor excuse. Reivers, Infiltrators, and Incursors are all ready to go.
Eliminators have the pad sculpted on/covered by cloak? I look at my Militarum Tempestus Scions kit, and all the cables are sculpted on the power packs. What does the instruction booklet tell me to do if I want to equip a Scion with a non-hot-shot weapon that doesn’t use a cable, like plasma, melta, or grenade launcher? It tells me to clip the cable off!
Yeah I'm sorry, where is the separate Dark Angels incursor set? Where is the separate Blood Angels invictus warsuit? Why are people acting like a kit that's already available to 5 codexes somehow would violate NMNR if it went to a sixth?
Yeah, the excuse is especially idiotic when you consider DW variant pad available in various terminator, veteran, captain, chaplain, etc, etc, sets has smooth bottom, and if it was half covered by cloak, it would look essentially identical to what the eliminators or phobos officers are sporting. Just paint the frakking arm silver, there, full WYSIWYG!
lifeafter wrote: The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.
As of the WD "update" they are literally SM chapter with zero chaper traits, no litanies, warlord traits, stratagems, relics or psychic powers save for small selection of vanilla ones, no superdoctrine, no nothing. Do you think this is competitive? How? Thanks to free lieutenant aura working on a handful of enemy units? Gee, I wonder if all of the above is worth spending extra 60 points on model that also fills your FOC and does useful stuff on table.
Right now, you're far better off throwing your DW book into the trash and running the army as Raven Guard or Ultramarines. Just run veterans as sternguard and primaris as actual troops, you won't be able to take kill teams but funnily enough both armies can replicate their rules with ease
lifeafter wrote: The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.
As of the WD "update" they are literally SM chapter with zero chaper traits, no litanies, warlord traits, stratagems, relics or psychic powers save for small selection of vanilla ones, no superdoctrine, no nothing. Do you think this is competitive? How? Thanks to free lieutenant aura working on a handful of enemy units? Gee, I wonder if all of the above is worth spending extra 60 points on model that also fills your FOC and does useful stuff on table.
Right now, you're far better off throwing your DW book into the trash and running the army as Raven Guard or Ultramarines. Just run veterans as sternguard and primaris as actual troops, you won't be able to take kill teams but funnily enough both armies can replicate their rules with ease
I think the unique rules DW currently have (SIA, Mission Tactics, current stratagem doctrines, and unique unit compositions) are like a unique chapter trait/super doctrine. I also think that the army will be more competitive with the vanilla SM combat doctrines, litanies, and stratagems than they currently are without them. Do I wish they had their own librarian discipline? Yes. I also wish they were getting access to the Vanguard units and the current SM relics. I'll agree with everyone in this thread who thinks that the WD update could have made them more powerful than what is currently being previewed. What I don't agree with is the sentiment that the update is so poor it should just be dismissed as worthless.
I'm excited for what the new stuff will do for the army and I'm looking forward to playing with the new rules.
What I don't agree with is the sentiment that the update is so poor it should just be dismissed as worthless.
I'm excited for what the new stuff will do for the army and I'm looking forward to playing with the new rules.
I say this entirely seriously: I'm glad that you're deriving enjoyment from this update. Thats what games and hobbys are supposed to provide. But I cannot for a moment understand how you think you're going to deal with anything at the competitive level of play.
Vet squads being able to fall back and shoot, ignore morale and/or fall back and charge arent remotely equivalent to a super doctrine. SIA is not for a second equivalent to a chapter tactic or the current level of chapter specific special rules. There is one Deathwatch WL trait worth taking (and I'll put money down that we wont get the option of taking a second for a CP, or making a named-hero equivalent double trait), and only two or three relics worth considering. Mission tactics are a complete and total waste of breath.
Comparing Deathwatch with these paltry rules updates to supplement-based marines, and concluding that they're equivalent is beyond comprehension..
lifeafter wrote: The stratagems and litanies are in themselves a good enough upgrade for DW to make them competetive.
As of the WD "update" they are literally SM chapter with zero chaper traits, no litanies, warlord traits, stratagems, relics or psychic powers save for small selection of vanilla ones, no superdoctrine, no nothing. Do you think this is competitive? How? Thanks to free lieutenant aura working on a handful of enemy units? Gee, I wonder if all of the above is worth spending extra 60 points on model that also fills your FOC and does useful stuff on table.
Right now, you're far better off throwing your DW book into the trash and running the army as Raven Guard or Ultramarines. Just run veterans as sternguard and primaris as actual troops, you won't be able to take kill teams but funnily enough both armies can replicate their rules with ease
I think the unique rules DW currently have (SIA, Mission Tactics, current stratagem doctrines, and unique unit compositions) are like a unique chapter trait/super doctrine. I also think that the army will be more competitive with the vanilla SM combat doctrines, litanies, and stratagems than they currently are without them. Do I wish they had their own librarian discipline? Yes. I also wish they were getting access to the Vanguard units and the current SM relics. I'll agree with everyone in this thread who thinks that the WD update could have made them more powerful than what is currently being previewed. What I don't agree with is the sentiment that the update is so poor it should just be dismissed as worthless.
I'm excited for what the new stuff will do for the army and I'm looking forward to playing with the new rules.
LOL it really isn't new rules. It's just a bunch of generic stuff that wasn't even the talk of the new Space Marine codex. It was all about the Supplements and Super Doctrines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still refuse to use Eliminators and Suppressors until I can use them as bigger than groups of 3.
Yeah, why the heck did they do this? I converted up a unit of 6 Suppressors before the models or rules were released because I liked the concept of jump pack autocannons. No other infantry unit in the game is limited to what comes in the box for unit size. Having a unit cap of 6 would hardly be broken. Although I don't want any more, releasing a multipart plastic kit would also be nice.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
They could have given DW this copy paste job six months ago. Over those 6 months, I doubt a single person at GW has given Deathwatch more than 5 minutes of thought and even with such a small update, I'll be shocked if all of the rules even work properly.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
Chris521 wrote: They could have given DW this copy paste job six months ago. Over those 6 months, I doubt a single person at GW has given Deathwatch more than 5 minutes of thought and even with such a small update, I'll be shocked if all of the rules even work properly.
They could do rules updates for everybody lot faster than they do. And water is wet.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
It would've also made it much easier to balance things properly. Maybe Raven Guard don't get access to Centurions, similar to Space Wolves, because it doesn't fit their style of warfare. Not to mention points could be adjusted to balance their relative benefits of different rules. Ultramarine Aggressors should be more expensive if they always double shoot. Iron Hands Dreads should be more expensive if they become characters, hidden Lascannons for Salamanders should be more expensive due to the efficiency improvement, etc..
I don't really get the outrage in this thread. Before the new SM Codex Deathwatch were considered to be the only "competitive" SM faction. Doesn't that mean they're also the faction that needs the smallest update of all the SM? Also, people keep complaining that SM broke the whole Edition and doktrines would have been enough of an Upgrade for SM to make them good. Now DW get just that and people behave like they're treated like, I don't know, CSM or Dark Eldar who would have been happy to get something similar.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
It would've also made it much easier to balance things properly. Maybe Raven Guard don't get access to Centurions, similar to Space Wolves, because it doesn't fit their style of warfare. Not to mention points could be adjusted to balance their relative benefits of different rules. Ultramarine Aggressors should be more expensive if they always double shoot. Iron Hands Dreads should be more expensive if they become characters, hidden Lascannons for Salamanders should be more expensive due to the efficiency improvement, etc..
Of course flipside is next time one of the codexes would be updated the rest would be lagging. Ask veteran dark angel players how it feels when marine codex gets new toys and improvements(3++ stormshields for ultramarines, 4++ for dark angels!) and others are lagging behind.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
It would've also made it much easier to balance things properly. Maybe Raven Guard don't get access to Centurions, similar to Space Wolves, because it doesn't fit their style of warfare. Not to mention points could be adjusted to balance their relative benefits of different rules. Ultramarine Aggressors should be more expensive if they always double shoot. Iron Hands Dreads should be more expensive if they become characters, hidden Lascannons for Salamanders should be more expensive due to the efficiency improvement, etc..
That's absolutely a horrible idea. If anything it makes balancing more of a pain. Remember that the Angels have been balanced as though they were Vanilla, which were originally balanced like they had Roboute in every list.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
The goal here is to achieve better maintenance for datasheets, not how many books you have to carry.
Therefore the best solution would be having everything in one book. But since that would result in a way too big book, you have to outsource the faction specific ones => Supplements
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
It would've also made it much easier to balance things properly. Maybe Raven Guard don't get access to Centurions, similar to Space Wolves, because it doesn't fit their style of warfare. Not to mention points could be adjusted to balance their relative benefits of different rules. Ultramarine Aggressors should be more expensive if they always double shoot. Iron Hands Dreads should be more expensive if they become characters, hidden Lascannons for Salamanders should be more expensive due to the efficiency improvement, etc..
That's absolutely a horrible idea. If anything it makes balancing more of a pain. Remember that the Angels have been balanced as though they were Vanilla, which were originally balanced like they had Roboute in every list.
Just because GW did their job poorly with the Angels books - and, arguably, non-UM chapters in the original 8th ed SM 'dex, given that UM lists with Roboute were the main "competitive" lists that functioned for SM in that period - doesn't mean that SSU's point is horrible. It just means GW need to do better.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don't really get the outrage in this thread. Before the new SM Codex Deathwatch were considered to be the only "competitive" SM faction. Doesn't that mean they're also the faction that needs the smallest update of all the SM? Also, people keep complaining that SM broke the whole Edition and doktrines would have been enough of an Upgrade for SM to make them good. Now DW get just that and people behave like they're treated like, I don't know, CSM or Dark Eldar who would have been happy to get something similar.
You have a good point, DW were one of the three viable SM factions (UM & BA being the other two) pre-codex. I think they've won a single GT in 8th edition if I remember correctly. So they're not a write off, mainly because they have excellent troops. But that's all they have. If you want to run anything other than their kill teams or fortis teams you're facing an uphill struggle. Kill teams in particular are a competitive soup option, and will remain so for as long as they can field a) hellfire shells b) stormshields c) terminators to ignore morale and add some 2+ beef.
So we were very much looking forward to getting some of those newish units to play with, in the hopes that we'd be able to field a different kind of army... We have four unique kits: a below average named character, the watch master (one of DW's saving graces), the veteran box and the Corvus (a bad transport we desperately want to be good because it looks dope). We like our units, they've served us well, and they remain good at what they do, but they're getting stale, and since the codex & supplements dropped the game has changed considerably, spiking up in power creep. So yeah, having access to transhuman and litanies will boost DW a bit, but it's nothing compared to what's happened to the game in the last two years. Yep that's right, DW haven't changed much in two years. Bolter discipline is irrelevant to us, as it doesn't stack with special ammo - the +1A is all that's changed in that time. Evey other marine faction has received amazing new rules, new relics, new units, new disciplines, around 8 new personalised stratagems, the majority have new characters too, and yeah, ten universal (except for DW) units too. The only exception is GKs who are hardly recongisable as the same army anymore. So is this just a case of faction envy? I guess you could look at it that way. But it's more that we want our lovingly converted armies to be fun, interesting, capable of more than one build (killteam spam).
So no, it's not quite the Drukhari treatment, but it's probably the second-worst update in PA after them. But having said that, at least they got some thought put into them, no matter how scared GW were of over-powering them. DW look to be getting zero new rules. The update could have been contained to a paragraph, if there willing to pass on reprinting the old rules, and just said 'refer to this bit of the codex'. In regard to your other example, it's wayyy below what CSM got, you can't compare them if you have a good handle on both armies (I play AL too).
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
It would've also made it much easier to balance things properly. Maybe Raven Guard don't get access to Centurions, similar to Space Wolves, because it doesn't fit their style of warfare. Not to mention points could be adjusted to balance their relative benefits of different rules. Ultramarine Aggressors should be more expensive if they always double shoot. Iron Hands Dreads should be more expensive if they become characters, hidden Lascannons for Salamanders should be more expensive due to the efficiency improvement, etc..
Of course flipside is next time one of the codexes would be updated the rest would be lagging. Ask veteran dark angel players how it feels when marine codex gets new toys and improvements(3++ stormshields for ultramarines, 4++ for dark angels!) and others are lagging behind.
And you think they'll just update all the Supplements, next time there is a new Marine Codex? Or scrap them like they did the Black Legion, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists supplements from 7th? And if they were to update all of them, that'd be no less work than updating the same number of stand-alone books with a couple of shared datasheets and stratagems re-printed in each.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
Ideally, all supplements would have been Codexes of their own, instead of doing that stupid two-book thing.
It would've also made it much easier to balance things properly. Maybe Raven Guard don't get access to Centurions, similar to Space Wolves, because it doesn't fit their style of warfare. Not to mention points could be adjusted to balance their relative benefits of different rules. Ultramarine Aggressors should be more expensive if they always double shoot. Iron Hands Dreads should be more expensive if they become characters, hidden Lascannons for Salamanders should be more expensive due to the efficiency improvement, etc..
That's absolutely a horrible idea. If anything it makes balancing more of a pain. Remember that the Angels have been balanced as though they were Vanilla, which were originally balanced like they had Roboute in every list.
??? That'd be an argument to split the books, so they can be balanced on their own terms. Ultramarine shooty units could be priced and balanced around having Guilliman, while Ultramarine assault units could be priced and balanced around not having advance & charge & fall-back-and-charge-and-extra-damage due to possibly being taken as White Scars as well, etc..
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still refuse to use Eliminators and Suppressors until I can use them as bigger than groups of 3.
Yeah, why the heck did they do this? I converted up a unit of 6 Suppressors before the models or rules were released because I liked the concept of jump pack autocannons. No other infantry unit in the game is limited to what comes in the box for unit size. Having a unit cap of 6 would hardly be broken. Although I don't want any more, releasing a multipart plastic kit would also be nice.
A unit cap of 6 would be pretty nuts, ngl. That's 18 dirt cheap, endlessly buffable, ignore LoS, multiple damage sniper rifles.
That 1 change alone would likely eliminate support characters from the metagame.
Eliminators are at 3 because they NEED to be at 3.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
do you have any clue how long that list would be?
Not long enough cry about.
Counting forgeworld it would be. That like 85 units.
Everybody says they want viable snipers but really no one wants viable snipers because what viable snipers means for most people out there are snipers that are popping out 1-2 characters per turn. And thats just toxic.
They managed to get doctrines right, but Bolter Discipline is still fethed. The exclusion is baked into the SIA rule via FAQ, and this doesnt change that.
Also dear fething god they put in the deleted Adaptive Strategy strat. Another thing they're gonna need to day 1 FAQ.
Sterling191 wrote: They managed to get doctrines right, but Bolter Discipline is still fethed. The exclusion is baked into the SIA rule via FAQ, and this doesnt change that.
Also dear fething god they put in the deleted Adaptive Strategy strat. Another thing they're gonna need to day 1 FAQ.
Presumably they might re-FAQ the SIA / Bolter Discipline, but "technically", the more recent publication trumps the older one (FAQ in this case).
Presumably they'll also FAQ Doctrines (and Adaptive Strategy as well as Duty Eternal), but I doubt it'll be day 1. They haven't done it for Saga of the Beast / Space Wolves thus far.
Presumably they might re-FAQ the SIA / Bolter Discipline, but "technically", the more recent publication trumps the older one (FAQ in this case).
There are no SIA rules in this publication. The FAQ rules stand. They explicitly modify the underlying SIA ability, which was not addressed in this flaming dumpster fire.
Presumably they might re-FAQ the SIA / Bolter Discipline, but "technically", the more recent publication trumps the older one (FAQ in this case).
There are no SIA rules in this publication. The FAQ rules stand. They explicitly modify the underlying SIA ability, which was not addressed in this flaming dumpster fire.
Fair enough.
Though they'll probably will kill Adaptive Strategy, it actually might not be a terrible idea to let DW keep it. Since they have no super-doctrine (and souping in DW would kill other Marine's super-doctrine), it'd be kinda semi-fluffy for them to have the flexi-strat.
Presumably they might re-FAQ the SIA / Bolter Discipline, but "technically", the more recent publication trumps the older one (FAQ in this case).
There are no SIA rules in this publication. The FAQ rules stand. They explicitly modify the underlying SIA ability, which was not addressed in this flaming dumpster fire.
I think he means that the FAQ will be FAQ'd to re-allow SIA with bolter discipline.
Presumably they might re-FAQ the SIA / Bolter Discipline, but "technically", the more recent publication trumps the older one (FAQ in this case).
There are no SIA rules in this publication. The FAQ rules stand. They explicitly modify the underlying SIA ability, which was not addressed in this flaming dumpster fire.
I think he means that the FAQ will be FAQ'd to re-allow SIA with bolter discipline.
No. I don't think that. I just assumed (without checking) it was a FAQ to bolter discipline, and thus the more recent version in the White Dwarf would overwrite the FAQ.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still refuse to use Eliminators and Suppressors until I can use them as bigger than groups of 3.
Yeah, why the heck did they do this? I converted up a unit of 6 Suppressors before the models or rules were released because I liked the concept of jump pack autocannons. No other infantry unit in the game is limited to what comes in the box for unit size. Having a unit cap of 6 would hardly be broken. Although I don't want any more, releasing a multipart plastic kit would also be nice.
A unit cap of 6 would be pretty nuts, ngl. That's 18 dirt cheap, endlessly buffable, ignore LoS, multiple damage sniper rifles.
That 1 change alone would likely eliminate support characters from the metagame.
Eliminators are at 3 because they NEED to be at 3.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
do you have any clue how long that list would be?
Not long enough cry about.
Counting forgeworld it would be. That like 85 units.
Yeah, I don't get how some people think larger squads of Eliminators would be good for the game. They're already amazing! I suppose if you split their datasheet so that the Las-Fusil version could have up to 6 that would be okay, but definitely not the sniper rifles!
(not a specific reply to the quoted post):
DW players are upset because every other space marine based faction seems to be getting something new on top of doctrines and codex strats, while DW are getting just the bare minimun doctrines and codex strats. What they really needed was a few different unit options (e.g. Eliminators) and some updates to their few specific units like the Watchmaster and Corvus Blackstar. Watchmaster is still good if unchanged, but he's not as good as a chapter master (he only rerolls failed hits).
Artemis is. . . not exactly useful.
Corvus Blackstar is a friggin dumpster fire.
Spoiler:
Minimum cost of 195 for 2x lascannon shots, the 2xd6 blackstar launcher (basically an assault cannon but +1 to hit vs flyers or a bolter that gets +1 to hit targets in cover), and the cluster bombs that will maybe do 1-2 mortal wounds over the course of the game before it's shot down. Oh, and no power of the machine spirit, so you're hitting on 4s. Or pay 5 points to reroll 1s vs non-flyers.
Or, you can get a relic contemptor dread with 4x lascannon shots that hits on 2s for 190 points. . . .
"But it's a transport!" you say. Yeah, sure, but why the heck would you risk losing super expensive veterans when this thing gets blown up when you can just deep strike them???? This thing is just so terrible it's hard to describe, and it's only amplified by the fact that DW troops are crazy expensive. It desperately--at minimum--needs PotMS if is to remain as expensive as it is. Otherwise it needs a severe points cut, or a stat buff. Or some kind of special rule like the Impulsor assault rule.
So basically we get a serious half-assed update that requires almost complete FAQ out of the gate!! lolz for days.
Bolter Discipline...yay or nay with SIA.
Combat Doctrines....not the new version where you don't get to choose when to rotate
Adaptive Strategy strat that has been eliminated from all other marine chapters.
bullyboy wrote: So basically we get a serious half-assed update that requires almost complete FAQ out of the gate!! lolz for days.
Bolter Discipline...yay or nay with SIA.
Combat Doctrines....not the new version where you don't get to choose when to rotate
Adaptive Strategy strat that has been eliminated from all other marine chapters.
At least we got the strat to give another hero a Warlord Trait (not that we have many that are any good, lol)
Are you kidding?
This is an absolute abundance of riches compared to the PA offerings for factions like Drukhari, Ynnari, etc..
2 pages of strats alone is insane (again Drukhari got zero ... zip ... nada). Sure, they aren't the most novel and unique, but it's infinitely more than ... no strats at all
This is an absolute abundance of riches compared to the PA offerings for factions like Drukhari, Ynnari, etc..
2 pages of strats alone is insane (again Drukhari got zero ... zip ... nada). Sure, they aren't the most novel and unique, but it's infinitely more than ... no strats at all
Calling this an abundance of riches is abject lunacy.
Calling this an abundance of riches is abject lunacy.
Calling it this an abundance of riches compared to the Drukhari or Ynnari treatment in PA is correct though, even understating it. It's a comparative statement, not an absolute one.
Galas wrote:This rules update makes the worst crime that a game can commit: It is uterly boring. Really? 0 new things? I hope theres more things because if not...
There wont be, and WarCom will make it out like Deathwatch are the luckiest players alive for getting attention.
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Calling it this an abundance of riches compared to the Drukhari or Ynnari treatment in PA is correct though, even understating it. It's a comparative statement, not an absolute one.
And entirely irrelevant. Go bitch in the Drukhari thread.
And entirely irrelevant. Go bitch in the Drukhari thread.
Doesn't matter where I go.
Deathwatch getting far more (quantity) and far better (quality) rules than most factions in PA still makes them a winner overall. No way getting around the obvious.
Deathwatch getting far more (quantity) and far better (quality) rules than most factions in PA still makes them a winner overall. No way getting around the obvious.
Calling Deathwatch a winner is a complete and total lie. This isnt a PA update. It's a substandard Summer Update bolted on after the fact out of broken parts.
And entirely irrelevant. Go bitch in the Drukhari thread.
Doesn't matter where I go.
Deathwatch getting far more (quantity) and far better (quality) rules than most factions in PA still makes them a winner overall. No way getting around the obvious.
This is absolutely false.
DA, BA and SW all got what DW received......but they also got, access to all new units, new strats, new relics, new WTs, and a super doctrine. It's not even close....at all. Stop being disingenuous.
The Ynnari update was fine, a complete new set of rules (if you didn't have the WD prior). Drukhari update was awful, not for what it didn't get, but for what it did get being far worse than what was in the codex so I do sympathize with Drukhari players. The Deathwatch update comes in at second place though, for sheer lack of effort.
DA, BA and SW all got what DW received......but they also got, access to all new units, new strats, new relics, new WTs, and a super doctrine. It's not even close....at all. Stop being disingenuous.
No, its not. DW already has better rules (SIA) than everything DA, BA, SW got from PA. Now they get combat doctrines and additional SM stratagems.
DA, BA and SW all got what DW received......but they also got, access to all new units, new strats, new relics, new WTs, and a super doctrine. It's not even close....at all. Stop being disingenuous.
No, its not. DW already has better rules (SIA) than everything DA, BA, SW got from PA. Now they get combat doctrines and additional SM stratagems.
Lol, you have to be kidding. All of the chapters basically get their own version of SIA now, plus extras. Vanguard units (Impulsor and Elims especially), all new strats and WTs, super doc, own litany, not even close.
DW will be a soup astartes list, that's it, it won;t operate on it's own well at all.
Lol, you have to be kidding. All of the chapters basically get their own version of SIA now, plus extras. Vanguard units (Impulsor and Elims especially), all new strats and WTs, super doc, own litany, not even close.
DW will be a soup astartes list, that's it, it won;t operate on it's own well at all.
Oh, really ? DW intercessors with auto bolt rifles using hellfire rounds, 30 shots at 24" that wound any non vehicle, non titanic unit, on 2s, regardless of toughness. When using the furor mission tactics, troop choices can re-roll 1s to wound. And when you are in half range, or less, you can use boltstorm to auto hit with 30 shots. You cant use boltstorm yet, but you can once WD 453 is out, it was previewed on WC. In T2, auto bolt rifles get AP-1, when the tactical doctrine is active, DW also gets this in WD 453.
Which other SM faction can do something similar with their troops ?
Perhaps the WD codex stuff should be split from this thread - given that it's not really got anything to do with Pariah book and we'll be receiving bits of information for the actual book this week?
Lol, you have to be kidding. All of the chapters basically get their own version of SIA now, plus extras. Vanguard units (Impulsor and Elims especially), all new strats and WTs, super doc, own litany, not even close.
DW will be a soup astartes list, that's it, it won;t operate on it's own well at all.
Oh, really ? DW intercessors with auto bolt rifles using hellfire rounds, 30 shots at 24" that wound any non vehicle, non titanic unit, on 2s, regardless of toughness. When using the furor mission tactics, troop choices can re-roll 1s to wound. And when you are in half range, or less, you can use boltstorm to auto hit with 30 shots. You cant use boltstorm yet, but you can once WD 453 is out, it was previewed on WC. In T2, auto bolt rifles get AP-1, when the tactical doctrine is active, DW also gets this in WD 453.
Which other SM faction can do something similar with their troops ?
Well seeing as the generic Intercessors just reroll 1s to wound vs everything with the Lt. nearby, and they get better rules and Strats, how much more are you going to say "butbutbutbut 2+ to wound!!!"
Spoiler Alert: 2+ to wound only gets you so far when you have access to nothing else. It wasn't helping much when they first came out, and it's still not helping now.
Tastyfish wrote: Perhaps the WD codex stuff should be split from this thread - given that it's not really got anything to do with Pariah book and we'll be receiving bits of information for the actual book this week?
Well, talk on Deathwatch will soon fade away, so there is still the news/rumour aspect of harlequins so no reason to remove it.
Calling this an abundance of riches is abject lunacy.
Calling it this an abundance of riches compared to the Drukhari or Ynnari treatment in PA is correct though
No, it's utterly wrong at best or a complete lie at worst. Not only dark eldar got a character and a unit, which is more than anyone but eldar got in PA so far, they were already tier 1 faction with 3x more rules than Deathwatch. Now they will only have 2.5x more rules and the power gap between the two will lessen from ginormous to simply gigantic. So, thanks for blatant dishonesty.
The fact you have the gall to compare WD faction with all of three units to codex army to dreg up suitable comparison and think it's somehow OK for the latter to get update comparable in scope to the former just shows you had no argument, just bait.
Lol, you have to be kidding. All of the chapters basically get their own version of SIA now, plus extras. Vanguard units (Impulsor and Elims especially), all new strats and WTs, super doc, own litany, not even close.
DW will be a soup astartes list, that's it, it won;t operate on it's own well at all.
Oh, really ? DW intercessors with auto bolt rifles using hellfire rounds, 30 shots at 24" that wound any non vehicle, non titanic unit, on 2s, regardless of toughness. When using the furor mission tactics, troop choices can re-roll 1s to wound. And when you are in half range, or less, you can use boltstorm to auto hit with 30 shots. You cant use boltstorm yet, but you can once WD 453 is out, it was previewed on WC. In T2, auto bolt rifles get AP-1, when the tactical doctrine is active, DW also gets this in WD 453.
Which other SM faction can do something similar with their troops ?
Meanwhile other SM will laugh as they have longer range with half of chapter trait, have reroll 1s on everything thanks to cheap lieutenants and can't be foiled by enemies using another unit than you anticipated, have access to vastly larger range of weapons, have better and more stratagems on top of chapter litanies, psychic powers, and superdoctrines to buff even more, and you still haven't even touched the other half of the chapter or relics for more buffs that make DW look like IG troops in comparison.
I also like how you tout boltstorm as something 'good' when SM laugh at this too, because unlike DW they can go rapidfire 2 on bolt rifles hitting on 2s rerolling 1s. From larger range and with more AP, again. The fact DW need to use boltstorm because their gimped arsenal doesn't synergize well with better stratagems is drawback, not a positive, which shows how wrong the above is to begin with.
So, close, but no cigar. Any other myths you need debunked?
It doesn't matter what they do for the Harlequins, it cannot be worse than for Deathwatch (I know, incoming GW hold my beer quotes). There is no source material to copy/paste from, it literally has to be something new.
Or it could be just "add <masque> to Kyganil, you're welcome!"
I honestly expect nothing more than just custom masques, no new WTs, relics or strats.
bullyboy wrote: Combat Doctrines....not the new version where you don't get to choose when to rotate
How do you get to this conclusion?
It literally says so in the printed rules package.
Yeah, but it also says so in SM Codex 2.0 since it is the same text (except for the "stacks with SIA"-sentence) and that text got FAQed a few weeks ago.
Yeah, but it also says so in SM Codex 2.0 since it is the same text (except for the "stacks with SIA"-sentence) and that text got FAQed a few weeks ago.
Congratulations, you're slowly starting to understand why the rules in this "update" are such a gak show. Read the FAQ. They list the codices and supplements affected. Hint: "Deathwatch in White Dwarf" isnt among them.
Tastyfish wrote: Perhaps the WD codex stuff should be split from this thread - given that it's not really got anything to do with Pariah book and we'll be receiving bits of information for the actual book this week?
Well, talk on Deathwatch will soon fade away, so there is still the news/rumour aspect of harlequins so no reason to remove it.
I meant have it's own topic, not delete. With harlequins still a month away at least there's definitely some legs - but we're at 15 pages about things that aren't in the book in question, and we all know that some necron pics on Saturday aren't going to slow the marine/WD codex chat down.
We've got a Pariah, War of the Spider and Engine War thread for precisely this reason, because the general Psychic Awakening thread ended up just being he same as this one...
Harlequins are almost certainly not getting any new units, otherwise they wouldn't be in a WD - I wouldn't imagine they'll get some major new faction ability (though a system built around the Acts of various plays would be interesting).
Their list is small enough that almost everything has a strat or two for it (other than the vehicles, so there's scope for a half page of strats there). But who knows, maybe they decided not to include Exodites in the Harlequin book and that's what scuppered their plans.
Lack of units is their problem though, without getting more things to play with you'd only really be switching out a few old unpopular strats for new ones, rather than doing anything radically new.
Tastyfish wrote: Perhaps the WD codex stuff should be split from this thread - given that it's not really got anything to do with Pariah book and we'll be receiving bits of information for the actual book this week?
Well, talk on Deathwatch will soon fade away, so there is still the news/rumour aspect of harlequins so no reason to remove it.
I meant have it's own topic, not delete. With harlequins still a month away at least there's definitely some legs - but we're at 15 pages about things that aren't in the book in question, and we all know that some necron pics on Saturday aren't going to slow the marine/WD codex chat down.
We've got a Pariah, War of the Spider and Engine War thread for precisely this reason, because the general Psychic Awakening thread ended up just being he same as this one...
Harlequins are almost certainly not getting any new units, otherwise they wouldn't be in a WD - I wouldn't imagine they'll get some major new faction ability (though a system built around the Acts of various plays would be interesting).
Their list is small enough that almost everything has a strat or two for it (other than the vehicles, so there's scope for a half page of strats there). But who knows, maybe they decided not to include Exodites in the Harlequin book and that's what scuppered their plans.
Lack of units is their problem though, without getting more things to play with you'd only really be switching out a few old unpopular strats for new ones, rather than doing anything radically new.
I actually started this thread with just Pariah. A mod added Deathwatch and Harlequins in WD. As it stands, I'm sure the talk about the book itself will increase if we are given any hint as to contents. Only so much discussion can be generated by Stern and Kyganil.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still refuse to use Eliminators and Suppressors until I can use them as bigger than groups of 3.
Yeah, why the heck did they do this? I converted up a unit of 6 Suppressors before the models or rules were released because I liked the concept of jump pack autocannons. No other infantry unit in the game is limited to what comes in the box for unit size. Having a unit cap of 6 would hardly be broken. Although I don't want any more, releasing a multipart plastic kit would also be nice.
A unit cap of 6 would be pretty nuts, ngl. That's 18 dirt cheap, endlessly buffable, ignore LoS, multiple damage sniper rifles.
That 1 change alone would likely eliminate support characters from the metagame.
Eliminators are at 3 because they NEED to be at 3.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
do you have any clue how long that list would be?
Not long enough cry about.
Counting forgeworld it would be. That like 85 units.
Yeah, I don't get how some people think larger squads of Eliminators would be good for the game. They're already amazing! I suppose if you split their datasheet so that the Las-Fusil version could have up to 6 that would be okay, but definitely not the sniper rifles!
(not a specific reply to the quoted post):
]
I'll give in to the point that Eliminators are fine at a unit size of 3. Suppressors on the other hand are a bit WTF at just 3 guys.
bullyboy wrote: It doesn't matter what they do for the Harlequins, it cannot be worse than for Deathwatch (I know, incoming GW hold my beer quotes). There is no source material to copy/paste from, it literally has to be something new.
Or it could be just "add <masque> to Kyganil, you're welcome!"
I honestly expect nothing more than just custom masques, no new WTs, relics or strats.
Not really interested in the Deathwatch, but curious as to why its been written off when the full white dwarf article has yet to be released and we've only had a taster from the community article. Has someone access to an early copy?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still refuse to use Eliminators and Suppressors until I can use them as bigger than groups of 3.
Yeah, why the heck did they do this? I converted up a unit of 6 Suppressors before the models or rules were released because I liked the concept of jump pack autocannons. No other infantry unit in the game is limited to what comes in the box for unit size. Having a unit cap of 6 would hardly be broken. Although I don't want any more, releasing a multipart plastic kit would also be nice.
A unit cap of 6 would be pretty nuts, ngl. That's 18 dirt cheap, endlessly buffable, ignore LoS, multiple damage sniper rifles.
That 1 change alone would likely eliminate support characters from the metagame.
Eliminators are at 3 because they NEED to be at 3.
Mr Morden wrote: Would it not have been better to have the Deathwatch as a Marine supplement.
no, there are way too many dataslates that DW don't use to make that closely viable.
This could easily be solved by simply providing a list of prohibited units at the beginning of the datatsheet-section. The same way as it is already done ith BT right now
do you have any clue how long that list would be?
Not long enough cry about.
Counting forgeworld it would be. That like 85 units.
Yeah, I don't get how some people think larger squads of Eliminators would be good for the game. They're already amazing! I suppose if you split their datasheet so that the Las-Fusil version could have up to 6 that would be okay, but definitely not the sniper rifles!
(not a specific reply to the quoted post):
]
I'll give in to the point that Eliminators are fine at a unit size of 3. Suppressors on the other hand are a bit WTF at just 3 guys.
Maybe the problem is overloading a bunch of stuff for Sniper Rifles and their Sergeant, instead of defending Eliminators as they are.
Interesting to see that any of the common marine stratagems that need even the slightest bit more than a copy paste are not included. DW not having access to veteran intercessors or a special issue wargear list is a bit laughable when they are supposed to be an army of veterans equipped with special issue wargear.
Insularum wrote: Interesting to see that any of the common marine stratagems that need even the slightest bit more than a copy paste are not included. DW not having access to veteran intercessors or a special issue wargear list is a bit laughable when they are supposed to be an army of veterans equipped with special issue wargear.
They get no new Relics or Warlord Traits, and they don't have very good ones to begin with.
Nids, Tau and IG got traits in the warlord slot that can be distributed to non-warlord units. Orks got custom jobs in the relic slot. Chaos got a boatload of both relics and traits.
Really it was only GSC and the Aeldari factions who got neither.
grouchoben wrote: Nids, Tau and IG got traits in the warlord slot that can be distributed to non-warlord units. Orks got custom jobs in the relic slot. Chaos got a boatload of both relics and traits.
Really it was only GSC and the Aeldari factions who got neither.
Well to be honest Craftworlds gor the Exarch powers, wich aren't bad at all, so it just the poor DE who got nothing.
I'm fairly certain Necrons WILL be in Pariah. Pariah cannot be named solely after a fairly inconspicuous SOB character (I know she has a lot of back story in terms of novels, but in terms of universe wide effects, she is about as important as Gaunt).
Also, they're surely not going to have a whole book with the only gaming changes being those two characters and maybe SOB in general. As I've said before in other threads, Necron plays just wait with the anxiety until you know for a fact Necrons ARE NOT in Pariah. No one knew AM were in greater good (most thought it was death guard) till a week before its release so it's shown that at times leaks from GW do not get through, this could be one of those cases.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm fairly certain Necrons WILL be in Pariah. Pariah cannot be named solely after a fairly inconspicuous SOB character (I know she has a lot of back story in terms of novels, but in terms of universe wide effects, she is about as important as Gaunt).
Agreed.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Also, they're surely not going to have a whole book with the only gaming changes being those two characters and maybe SOB in general. As I've said before in other threads, Necron plays just wait with the anxiety until you know for a fact Necrons ARE NOT in Pariah. No one knew AM were in greater good (most thought it was death guard) till a week before its release so it's shown that at times leaks from GW do not get through, this could be one of those cases.
I think a lot of that is down to the title of the book. Had it not been Guard but Tau that had only been officially confirmed a week before the book so obviously titled The Greater Good was released, we would have gotten a load of complaints about GW acting coy for that, too.
I put it down to GW splitting up the Adepticon preview (and not telling anyone until halfway through). I still believe Necrons will get something substantial considering they'll be the last faction to get anything in Psychic Awakening and GW being so tight lipped about it for now. It stands to reason they'd save a big announcement for last. Still, a teaser or at least confirmation that Necrons are actually in the book would help people get over the couple of weeks until the last preview is out.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm fairly certain Necrons WILL be in Pariah. Pariah cannot be named solely after a fairly inconspicuous SOB character (I know she has a lot of back story in terms of novels, but in terms of universe wide effects, she is about as important as Gaunt).
Also, they're surely not going to have a whole book with the only gaming changes being those two characters and maybe SOB in general. As I've said before in other threads, Necron plays just wait with the anxiety until you know for a fact Necrons ARE NOT in Pariah. No one knew AM were in greater good (most thought it was death guard) till a week before its release so it's shown that at times leaks from GW do not get through, this could be one of those cases.
Well she is a living weapon against Chaos so...yeah could be VERY important - more so than some guy having a snozze in a big mountain flying through space....
That being said I can see the Necrons wanting to get hold of ehr to use her as that weapon or see if she can be duplicated.
So I am thinking Stern is on the run from both Necrons and Chaos until....well just like all the other Campaign books, nothing much happens...
To be fair, the insistence on Death Guard being present was because of the one short story. It ignored that Guard had featured in 3 or 4 short stories before, AdMech in a few before Engine War, etc.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm fairly certain Necrons WILL be in Pariah. Pariah cannot be named solely after a fairly inconspicuous SOB character (I know she has a lot of back story in terms of novels, but in terms of universe wide effects, she is about as important as Gaunt).
Geifer wrote: I put it down to GW splitting up the Adepticon preview (and not telling anyone until halfway through). I still believe Necrons will get something substantial considering they'll be the last faction to get anything in Psychic Awakening and GW being so tight lipped about it for now. It stands to reason they'd save a big announcement for last. Still, a teaser or at least confirmation that Necrons are actually in the book would help people get over the couple of weeks until the last preview is out.
The green glowing banner for this week's preview shouts 'Necron' to me too. I think we'll see something and it'll be related to that rumour engine pic from 6 months ago.
I didnt know necrons are the only faction which has green color. Btw, not every necron dynasty is green. But, i agree, necron must be in there as well. They are pretty much the only faction left, but i dont think they will get (almost) the entire book to themselves.
Is it known when Pariah is going to release? I a quite certain Necron will be in there, and I am currently assembling a new army. Would be great to have their PA, might want to make some changes
Looks like Necrons are now confirmed for PA: Pariah - Illuminor Szeras gets a new mini as well as his own lady inquisitor to fight, plus there was a lot of chat about the Necrons researching the Pariah gene and Blackstone/Noctilith.
What is potentially interesting is that these characters may still not be the only release for Pariah model wise.
Necron Pariahs could return (however if you listened to the twitch chat, the way they were speaking this may be unlikely).
Also, it could be where the rules new rumoured Primaris models appear (bikes etc), if we are being cynical, maybe it would be a way to attain more book sales by making it worthwhile to marine players also.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: What is potentially interesting is that these characters may still not be the only release for Pariah model wise.
Necron Pariahs could return (however if you listened to the twitch chat, the way they were speaking this may be unlikely).
Also, it could be where the rules new rumoured Primaris models appear (bikes etc), if we are being cynical, maybe it would be a way to attain more book sales by making it worthwhile to marine players also.
When those new Primaris units (bikes, speeder maybe?) where spotted I believe the rumor said early summer to late summer for their release. That would line up fairly well with the projected release date of Pariah. They have to fit in somewhere after all, why not here?
On a wishlisting note, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Necron get some major love in Pariah, they need it.
It would be exactly like GW to release a book series of lore changing campaigns that introduces new models and rules to the armies each book focused on, name one of them Pariah, feature Necrons, not release new rules or models for Necron Pariahs and instead release new Primaris models and rules.
"Pariah" means several things for 40k. It means outcasts(Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin friend qualify there), it means psychic nulls, and it also means the Necron shenanigans. And that's not even getting into the callsigns/monikers.
It's no different than how we got a book called "The Greater Good" which detailed the Tau, GSC, and Guard--all of whom are groups who believe they are serving a greater good.
And it's still worth mentioning that the supposed Primaris 'leak' never really added up. There was a lot of discussion around it at the time where some folks noticed that it looked a lot like existing pictures of BA and UM forces from Chapter Approved or something, just with a blurry lens filter applied. It would be weird as hell for the purported starter set(which is what that was, in case you forget) to include two different armies in it.
And I'm really not buying GW producing Psychic Awakening books to bring Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves up to date for Phobos Marines and then turn around 3 months later and release another wave of Primaris Marines. They may be a little crazy, but not that crazy. I'd not expect another line of Primaris Marines until 2021, just in time for the new version of Codexes to incorporate all the Psychic Awakening updates plus new models.
Kanluwen wrote: "Pariah" means several things for 40k. It means outcasts(Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin friend qualify there), it means psychic nulls, and it also means the Necron shenanigans. And that's not even getting into the callsigns/monikers.
It's no different than how we got a book called "The Greater Good" which detailed the Tau, GSC, and Guard--all of whom are groups who believe they are serving a greater good.
And it's still worth mentioning that the supposed Primaris 'leak' never really added up. There was a lot of discussion around it at the time where some folks noticed that it looked a lot like existing pictures of BA and UM forces from Chapter Approved or something, just with a blurry lens filter applied. It would be weird as hell for the purported starter set(which is what that was, in case you forget) to include two different armies in it.
unless they included 2 differant primaris armies in it, which.. would be unusal.
Kanluwen wrote: "Pariah" means several things for 40k. It means outcasts(Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin friend qualify there), it means psychic nulls, and it also means the Necron shenanigans. And that's not even getting into the callsigns/monikers.
It's no different than how we got a book called "The Greater Good" which detailed the Tau, GSC, and Guard--all of whom are groups who believe they are serving a greater good.
And it's still worth mentioning that the supposed Primaris 'leak' never really added up. There was a lot of discussion around it at the time where some folks noticed that it looked a lot like existing pictures of BA and UM forces from Chapter Approved or something, just with a blurry lens filter applied. It would be weird as hell for the purported starter set(which is what that was, in case you forget) to include two different armies in it.
unless they included 2 differant primaris armies in it, which.. would be unusal.
Can you imagine how much a certain segment of the userbase here would explode if that happened?
Kanluwen wrote: And it's still worth mentioning that the supposed Primaris 'leak' never really added up. There was a lot of discussion around it at the time where some folks noticed that it looked a lot like existing pictures of BA and UM forces from Chapter Approved or something, just with a blurry lens filter applied. It would be weird as hell for the purported starter set(which is what that was, in case you forget) to include two different armies in it.
I'll laugh if this becomes "it's obviously Milliput! Look at the different shades of grey!" 2.0
If the image you're referencing is this one then there was literally 0% chance it is depicting a new starter set.
Not only are there two Primaris forces, but they're both advancing in the same direction which means they aren't two halves of a starter box lined up in combat. Additionally there is what looks to be a multipart Redemptor Dreadnought, multipart Intercessor Squad, and the back of an Impulsor.
There's no way GW would release a starter set with 3 tanks and a dreadnought. That's more than even a battleforce.
BrotherGecko wrote: It would be exactly like GW to release a book series of lore changing campaigns that introduces new models and rules to the armies each book focused on, name one of them Pariah, feature Necrons, not release new rules or models for Necron Pariahs and instead release new Primaris models and rules.
If they do rerelease pariahs, I hope they lean harder into their nature as some kind of techno-flesh hybrid monstrosities, instead of what they looked like before which was just a slightly different type of necron.
Cool, seems like they're bringing back at least some of the spirit of old necron pariahs. Whether or not they're a similar incarnation (tbh, I hope they're not, the old incarnation looked far too similar to normal necrons to me) I am excited to see them.
They had one of the coolest core concepts (humans turned into an anti-psychic living cyborg weapon) and one of the weirdest executions (C-3P0s wielding laser Naginatas) of any 40k unit IMO.
Assuming that it's the same concept. That figure that grabbed her could have just been a normal warrior too.
I kind of like the idea of the pariahs being all the tertiary "chaf" citizens and xenos from various factions being turned into mind wiped obedient slave zombies for the necrons. Sort of like a mind wiped version of pox walkers. That would make for one amazing box set, if they had parts to make various mind slaved xenos.
pm713 wrote: It feels very eh to me. PA is meant to be in the past compared to other stories so nothing that big can happen.
People keep saying that (and truth be told I remember reading that somewhere as well) but do you know what the source is for that?
Spoiler:
Well, past or present. Stuff happening all over the galaxy as a result of the Cicatrix Maledictum in the period since Gathering Storm (a couple hundred years pre-"current-40K" and up to now).
Either way, it's not supposed to "move forward" or be the next Gathering Storm-style event. It's supposed to flesh out the last "big narrative event" from late 7th (e.g. the stage-setting for 8th) with "anthology-style" spotlights on whats been going on all over the galaxy because / after the story moved forward.
Sterling191 wrote: So if Im reading today's WD preview accurately (and its a small not very hi-res image so its entirely possible I'm not), Harlequins get six pages.
That's not encouraging.
Six pages... two filled with pictures, two with fluff and talking about how the designers decided to revisit the Harlequins after a long time, etc. etc. Leaving two pages for new artifacts (I bet four...), new stratagems (Here I will say six), and new warlord traits. Boom! Mic drop.
The Tempestus got 5 pages, I'd perhaps look to that as a model?
Mix and match masques perhaps (rather than new Masques), to bring them in line with the other Eldar, then a few relics and strats.
pm713 wrote: Apologies for being a bit OT but is Daemonifuge worth reading?
It doesn't have an ending, if that sort of thing bothers you...
I was under the impression they'd fixed that for the collected edition?
How? They only got to the end of the prologue/origin story when it was cancelled. It’s missing about 2/3 of the basic plot; they were only just on their way to find the macguffin that would tell them who the real enemy is, never mind actually finding themiirc.
pm713 wrote: Apologies for being a bit OT but is Daemonifuge worth reading?
It doesn't have an ending, if that sort of thing bothers you...
I was under the impression they'd fixed that for the collected edition?
How? They only got to the end of the prologue/origin story when it was cancelled. It’s missing about 2/3 of the basic plot; they were only just on their way to find the macguffin that would tell them who the real enemy is, never mind actually finding themiirc.
Books 1 2 and 3 begin with
Spoiler:
Stern riddled with bullets and dying, essentially saying 'I bet you're wondering how I got here, huh?' But Book 3 ends with her defeating Fazael and killing a Culexus, and then wandering into a webway portal...
Has been a bit but I have to say. GW, thank you for giving Deathwatch the lowest effort possible. It exceeded even my low expectations for what love they'd get in PA. Thank you for the memes.
I get stuff is hard all over but damn, could they give any lazier an effort to their " Update ". I mean it's a buff to the army but damn does it feel like they want me to ask.." Pardon me, may I please have some more ? "
AngryAngel80 wrote: Has been a bit but I have to say. GW, thank you for giving Deathwatch the lowest effort possible. It exceeded even my low expectations for what love they'd get in PA. Thank you for the memes.
I get stuff is hard all over but damn, could they give any lazier an effort to their " Update ". I mean it's a buff to the army but damn does it feel like they want me to ask.." Pardon me, may I please have some more ? "
Any lazier efffort? Have you looked at how they treated Ynnari? Drukhari? Etc..
Most non-Marine factions didn't get 10% of the Strats, Litanies, mono-faction bonuses and more that Deathwatch got, lol.
Aside from not being in a shiny book, Deathwatch is easily one of the better-off factions out of PA.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Has been a bit but I have to say. GW, thank you for giving Deathwatch the lowest effort possible. It exceeded even my low expectations for what love they'd get in PA. Thank you for the memes.
I get stuff is hard all over but damn, could they give any lazier an effort to their " Update ". I mean it's a buff to the army but damn does it feel like they want me to ask.." Pardon me, may I please have some more ? "
Any lazier efffort? Have you looked at how they treated Ynnari? Drukhari? Etc..
Most non-Marine factions didn't get 10% of the Strats, Litanies, mono-faction bonuses and more that Deathwatch got, lol.
Aside from not being in a shiny book, Deathwatch is easily one of the better-off factions out of PA.
Also it's not like Deathwatch started PA as an unplayable army either DW simply didn't need massive buffs to their core units and don't have a depth of units to require much more.
Would be cool if they got at least the level of the other Loyalist marines, which they didn't get. They didn't even get the items placed in the magazine properly needing near instant FAQ. That to me is lazy effort given.
Now how bad off the Eldars were done, I was one of the few saying that when it happened, sucks to be them too.
DW aren't unplayable with or without the update and I did say if you bothered to read my post what they got was a buff. A very lazy buff with poorly proof read additions, old wording of rules and a strat removed from marines.
They didn't even get the thought of vanguard marine additions which all other marines did in their updates. No WL traits, no super doctrine ( even if some chapters don't feel too super I admit ) nothing special with the chaplain, no strats.
I mean its cool to say you just don't care they were bad done, but really it was the laziest effort given to loyalist marines. Something worthy of being tossed into a magazine and not even into a book proper.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Would be cool if they got at least the level of the other Loyalist marines
You say that like if other Loyalist marines weren't systematically those that got the most of out PA.
That's like saying "Would be cool they they got at least more than everyone xenos, non-SM imperials or chaos".
AngryAngel80 wrote: Has been a bit but I have to say. GW, thank you for giving Deathwatch the lowest effort possible. It exceeded even my low expectations for what love they'd get in PA. Thank you for the memes.
I get stuff is hard all over but damn, could they give any lazier an effort to their " Update ". I mean it's a buff to the army but damn does it feel like they want me to ask.." Pardon me, may I please have some more ? "
Any lazier efffort? Have you looked at how they treated Ynnari? Drukhari? Etc..
Most non-Marine factions didn't get 10% of the Strats, Litanies, mono-faction bonuses and more that Deathwatch got, lol.
Aside from not being in a shiny book, Deathwatch is easily one of the better-off factions out of PA.
This is absolutely and utterly incorrect.
Ynnari had a massive update (you have to assume that not everyone got the WD), which means they got 14 pages of updates. basically a new army. yes, some people say they are now unplayable, but i don't really care about the competitive types, I still play them occasionally with my quins and wraith constructs.
Drukhari also received updated Drazhar and Incubi plus custom obsessions for each of the types of Drukhari. Just because they are not that great compared to the codex does not equate to laziness, just ineptness.
Deathwatch got zero effort as it was simply a copy/paste....no effort, no thought, nothing original.
Deathwatch didn't get anything more than what they were good at doing anyway. This was an update that should have automatically occurred when Codex:SM dropped. each other SM army got all of these rules....plus a crap ton more.
You may be anti-marine, but that doesn't change the fact that the comment was factually correct.
When it comes to marine PA updates...Deathwatch rank at the bottom with Wolves, DA, BA and Grey Knights far above them.
bullyboy wrote: When it comes to marine PA updates...Deathwatch rank at the bottom with Wolves, DA, BA and Grey Knights far above them.
In total, Grey Knights are still the bottom of all Marines to beh onest. They not only didn't get Vanguards, they not even have Primaris up to this day.
Since the two armies I own are exactly GK and DW, both sucks for me
bullyboy wrote: When it comes to marine PA updates...Deathwatch rank at the bottom with Wolves, DA, BA and Grey Knights far above them.
In total, Grey Knights are still the bottom of all Marines to beh onest. They not only didn't get Vanguards, they not even have Primaris up to this day.
Since the two armies I own are exactly GK and DW, both sucks for me
Except Grey Knights have become extremely competitive with their new updates, plenty of BRs out there to show that. Not to mention their update was original, and fixed many glaring holes. They got new Tides, 2 pages of strats (more importantly, 10 brand new strategems that aren't copy/paste from marines), a new psychic discipline, 6 new relics, and unique litanies. It was a great update, this did not happen for Deathwatch. I would have settled for 3 new strats, 3 relics, 3 WTs and a unique litany. Would have been ecstatic with that, and it's asking for the minimum.
bullyboy wrote: When it comes to marine PA updates...Deathwatch rank at the bottom with Wolves, DA, BA and Grey Knights far above them.
In total, Grey Knights are still the bottom of all Marines to beh onest. They not only didn't get Vanguards, they not even have Primaris up to this day.
Since the two armies I own are exactly GK and DW, both sucks for me
Grey Knights resisted the taint of Primaris - sounds about right for the faction, where resisting taint is a key theme.
Given the Deathwatch are already contaminated, they could've at least picked up the Primaris transport thing (whose name escapes me) from the Vanguard wave, if nothing else.
It'd make more sense for DW to have their own specific transports , the Inquisition kits them out with better infantry based weapons, a flyer, wargear... But I guess the problem is that in the fluff the Deathwatch are never meant to deploy as an army. It's like sending special forces to do regular infantry work.
TwilightSparkles wrote: It'd make more sense for DW to have their own specific transports , the Inquisition kits them out with better infantry based weapons, a flyer, wargear... But I guess the problem is that in the fluff the Deathwatch are never meant to deploy as an army. It's like sending special forces to do regular infantry work.
To be fair, the Astartes are often employed in the same way - its rare (and highly dangerous) for a large force from a Chapter to be fielded - if you loose too many and their geneseed has not been harvested the whole Chapter could be destroyed or at least combat ineffective for a few decades.
Well some special forces do deploy heavy, take a target or area till regular forces arrive then pull out. However with the way of the game special forces often are whole armies and the transports and gear tends to go both ways.
So sorry for the Marine haters out there but yeah Deathwatch got the lazy effort and as much as it burns to hear, it sucks for those who play that faction. Honestly it shocked me how little effort and what nothing they got from PA. I really hope they get a proper update in a book and this is just a hold you over sort of thing.
bullyboy wrote: When it comes to marine PA updates...Deathwatch rank at the bottom with Wolves, DA, BA and Grey Knights far above them.
In total, Grey Knights are still the bottom of all Marines to beh onest. They not only didn't get Vanguards, they not even have Primaris up to this day.
Since the two armies I own are exactly GK and DW, both sucks for me
Except Grey Knights have become extremely competitive with their new updates, plenty of BRs out there to show that. Not to mention their update was original, and fixed many glaring holes. They got new Tides, 2 pages of strats (more importantly, 10 brand new strategems that aren't copy/paste from marines), a new psychic discipline, 6 new relics, and unique litanies. It was a great update, this did not happen for Deathwatch. I would have settled for 3 new strats, 3 relics, 3 WTs and a unique litany. Would have been ecstatic with that, and it's asking for the minimum.
In terms of rules effort you are absolutely right.
bullyboy wrote: When it comes to marine PA updates...Deathwatch rank at the bottom with Wolves, DA, BA and Grey Knights far above them.
In total, Grey Knights are still the bottom of all Marines to beh onest. They not only didn't get Vanguards, they not even have Primaris up to this day.
Since the two armies I own are exactly GK and DW, both sucks for me
Except Grey Knights have become extremely competitive with their new updates, plenty of BRs out there to show that. Not to mention their update was original, and fixed many glaring holes. They got new Tides, 2 pages of strats (more importantly, 10 brand new strategems that aren't copy/paste from marines), a new psychic discipline, 6 new relics, and unique litanies. It was a great update, this did not happen for Deathwatch. I would have settled for 3 new strats, 3 relics, 3 WTs and a unique litany. Would have been ecstatic with that, and it's asking for the minimum.
In terms of rules effort you are absolutely right.
I referenced at the overall variety in the army.
Yeah, they don't have too many units to choose from.....but at least what they get looks damn good!
For Deathwatch, I wish they'd get access to a limited vanguard kill team and allow them to use the Corvus Blackstar. The whole transport bias that GW has developed for marines is really dumb IMHO.
All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.
If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?
Because unless they changed it, it isn't a chapter. It is an organization that draws it's members from other chapters existing forces for a specific length of service. Unless every Marine chapter has rejected Primaris Marines, it would be a major slap in the face diplomatic incidence to reject a chapters soldiers that they requested.
It was a joke, it's 100% the silent king there are necrons symbols and shape everywhere, you can clearly see the characters depicted are necrons, there is ominous green light everywhere and Sigmar never went away.
zend wrote: All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.
If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...
zend wrote: All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.
If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?
I would have been fine with that too, but again...cat out of the bag.
Really interesting about the Silent King. But like I said much earlier in the thread, the return of an ominous threat has been alluded to in the very first PA book (although some on here still think reading into PA fluff is fruitless). The Necrons are indeed looking like the new big bad for the next chapter of 40K (at least kicking off). I would love to see them vs Ynnari (as prophesized in the first book), but of course it will be Primaris marines
It's been a while since I dove into the necron back ground but I recall Silent King just being a title that went to the current head of the triarch which is the over arching triad of overlords. He was called the silent king because he never spoke directly to the subjects, he had the other two do it for him. So he is just a Necron Phaeron, or at least that is what was implied.
I am sure they will make him larger then that, but there was never any hint at him being anything more then that on a physical level. I think they expanded on him in the blood angels novels where they allied (still not a fan of that) and I heard he has a death mask similar to the sanguinary guard for some odd reason.
Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.
Mr_Rose wrote: Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.
Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.
zend wrote: All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.
If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?
Grey knights have their own specific recruitment and training process. It is plausible for them to not be willing/able to add the primaris upgrades.
Deathwatch is a volunteer force essentially, with a support shell and a handful of permanent veterans and leaders. The rest of their forces are seconded from other chapters, who now include primaris. Sorry brother Scipio of the ultramarines, but you must be this short to join a kill team?
zend wrote: All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.
If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?
Because Death Watch recruits from other chapters who are now mostly Primaris. And GK will get their Primaris upgrade when GW gets around making new models for them.
zend wrote: All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.
If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?
Grey knights have their own specific recruitment and training process. It is plausible for them to not be willing/able to add the primaris upgrades.
Deathwatch is a volunteer force essentially, with a support shell and a handful of permanent veterans and leaders. The rest of their forces are seconded from other chapters, who now include primaris. Sorry brother Scipio of the ultramarines, but you must be this short to join a kill team?
Mostly, Grey Knights don’t have Primaris because GW have decided not to pursue it. At least not yet. Let’s assume GW ultimately decides Grey Knights will get Primaris and their process will work. How do they get the tech?
I vaguely recall that the Grey Knights have a teleporter that goes to Terra, right?
They teleport a knight to Terra. He sequesters the technology as well as those trained on how to make Primaris, and they teleport back to Titan. Bam.
Mr_Rose wrote: Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.
Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.
Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.
Mr_Rose wrote: Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.
Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.
Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.
Why can't he just have spare blank bodies lying around?
Mr_Rose wrote: Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.
Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.
Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.
Why can't he just have spare blank bodies lying around?
Because he does it mid-combat to other officers in his army. If he’s not using some sort of command override then he was actually running all those bodies simultaneously already, but then why don’t they fall over when he actually does die for realsies?
Yeah. They can just pull an absolutely ridiculous, ludicrous, incredibly bad written deus ex nonsense reason and add it to the canon. I mean, that's how we got primaris in the first place lol.
Mr_Rose wrote: Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.
Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.
Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.
Why can't he just have spare blank bodies lying around?
Because he does it mid-combat to other officers in his army. If he’s not using some sort of command override then he was actually running all those bodies simultaneously already, but then why don’t they fall over when he actually does die for realsies?
He also used to be able to possess Lychguard, which if he kept that he'd be an interesting option.
mightymconeshot wrote:Because unless they changed it, it isn't a chapter. It is an organization that draws it's members from other chapters existing forces for a specific length of service. Unless every Marine chapter has rejected Primaris Marines, it would be a major slap in the face diplomatic incidence to reject a chapters soldiers that they requested.
This would easily have been avoided had they thought things through and made multiple chapters, out of literally hundreds, flat out refuse Primaris reinforcements. Permanently. But they want fans of every chapter besides Grey Knights to buy Primaris, so here we are.
I also maintain that the Ultima founding and Cawl's entire existence should have caused a schism in the Imperium. Like, not a single Magos or Inquisitor cried Heresy on Cawl and Guilliman? No Firstborns permanently refused them or went renegade over it? It's all sunshine and lollipops just because the Custodes say they're okay? How boring.
pm713 wrote:
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...
Which makes no sense. You'd think the vast majority of them would be puritans, given how much they hate everything xenos. But I guess every single watch member is a radical and is willing to partake in or overlook the use of xenos technology.
pm713 wrote:
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...
Which makes no sense. You'd think the vast majority of them would be puritans, given how much they hate everything xenos. But I guess every single watch member is a radical and is willing to partake in or overlook the use of xenos technology.
A group has most access to Xeno weaponry and technology and is used by both Radical and Puritan Inquisitors will have a mix of both.
Some Marines that refuse to use the xeno-tech and others that are more open minded, depending on the upbringing of their chapter and their own personal experiences.
I liken it to Inquisitors themselves.
Everyone starts of as a hot and heavy Puritan, and then eventually you either make enough compromises that "fight fire with fire" is a good idea, or you turn weird and build yourself a walking death-chair and launch bombs onto your own acolytes for a slight accuracy buff.
This is actually...really kind of cool. Bravo, GW, you had An Original Idea that actually helps harlequins feel more interesting.
...Gloomwake is a hilariously bad ability, though. wtfGW did you forget that half the units in harlequins can't benefit from cover saves anyway, and -1 to wound rolls is ALWAYS ALWAYS going to be better?
Probably won't make Harequins competetive or anything, but props to GW for adding a bunch of interesting stuff that also doesn't just feel like needless, bland bloat.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Probably won't make Harequins competetive or anything, but props to GW for adding a bunch of interesting stuff that also doesn't just feel like needless, bland bloat.
I mean, it certainly makes Death Jesters amazing again. Humbling Cruelty holy gak dawg.
mightymconeshot wrote:Because unless they changed it, it isn't a chapter. It is an organization that draws it's members from other chapters existing forces for a specific length of service. Unless every Marine chapter has rejected Primaris Marines, it would be a major slap in the face diplomatic incidence to reject a chapters soldiers that they requested.
This would easily have been avoided had they thought things through and made multiple chapters, out of literally hundreds, flat out refuse Primaris reinforcements. Permanently. But they want fans of every chapter besides Grey Knights to buy Primaris, so here we are.
I also maintain that the Ultima founding and Cawl's entire existence should have caused a schism in the Imperium. Like, not a single Magos or Inquisitor cried Heresy on Cawl and Guilliman? No Firstborns permanently refused them or went renegade over it? It's all sunshine and lollipops just because the Custodes say they're okay? How boring.
pm713 wrote:
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...
Which makes no sense. You'd think the vast majority of them would be puritans, given how much they hate everything xenos. But I guess every single watch member is a radical and is willing to partake in or overlook the use of xenos technology.
The Imperium is full of double standards like that. They're supposed to view humanity as a purer form of life and kill mutants. Unless they're astropaths, navigators, astartes, custodes, ogryns, ratlings or any other sanctioned mutant. Or Sanguinius who's a mutant and one of their favourite heroes.
Witches AKA psykers are meant to be hated and killed. Guess who's in charge?
In reality, the reason why Grey Knights don't have primaris is that GW sees them as distinct from normal marines. That's why they have a bunch of unique models, that's why they have tides instead of doctrines, that's why they don't have primaris
Deathwatch marines are just normal marines, but they have mixed squads. I can't help but wonder if GW made an intentional design decision to only have one "special" marine faction.
Given that Harly rules seem to have a modicum of effort put into them, the choice to half-ass the DWWD is pretty apparent. I'm going to be optimistic about DW's future for the first time and say that maybe they're getting a massive rework for 9e/next phase/whatever's after PA, given that we are seemingly shifting to a Xenos-centered story. If that were the case, it would make sense to not put too much effort into this particular update.
I mean, it certainly makes Death Jesters amazing again. Humbling Cruelty holy gak dawg.
My one super weak complaint is nothing here that buffed Prismatic Cannons. Otherwise, HOLY MOLY, this is better (read: more interesting, solid, and different) than my greatest expectations. Wonderful, especially Death Jesters and Shadowseers!
I mean, it certainly makes Death Jesters amazing again. Humbling Cruelty holy gak dawg.
My one super weak complaint is nothing here that buffed Prismatic Cannons. Otherwise, HOLY MOLY, this is better (read: more interesting, solid, and different) than my greatest expectations. Wonderful, especially Death Jesters and Shadowseers!
Yeah, just running through here:
Troupe Masters: You're going to have a hard time replacing a "Reroll all to wound rolls" aura, but Twilight Grasp could be interesting for a "Smash Master" with the new Twilight Fang relic.
Shadowseers: Gloomwake basically only matters if you are playing an all-biker army where Shield from Harm would be useless, but I feel like Veil of Illusion would be better for that purpose, making it harder to return fire on your Haywire bikes with 24" range weaponry. The beauty of it is you can look at what's in your opponent's army and tailor your SS's ability according to the matchup.
Death Jester: the big problem here is, Death Is not Enough is so bad that you'd almost never not trade it out for one of these. I guess you could theoretically get to choose to take out a heavy weapon or sergeant model, but the gameplay fantasy of "tag 1 enemy model, enemy has to make morale test at that BIG NASTY -2, whooooooah you kill the sergeaaaaant" is an unfortunate combination of extremely unlikely and extremely un-impactful when it does happen. Harvester of Torment makes the relic shriekers extremely good, and humbling cruelty makes death jesters crazy lockdown tools for 45pts. Uh, excuse me mr imperial knight, but I have shot you with a shuriken cannon so, no overwatch for you sir.
solitaire: Unnatural Acrobatics presents an extremely good combo with the "enemy models that roll a 1 to hit me take a mortal wound' relic. Otherwise these powers are kind of just side-grades. I tend to like the auto-6 advance solitaire because he's pretty reliable, but Blitz almost always gets ya boy in anyway.
Stratagems:
Pivotal Role: Almost always best spent on Troupe Masters, I guess you could spend the CP on a "Stop hitting yourself" relic solitaire, but I don't think blitz is worth 1cp personally. prince of light definitely seems worthwhile for an aura-troupe master to have in addition to reroll wounds.
Murderous Entrance: Seems very good just in general. Troupes really needed a way to threaten vehicles with their melee weapons and a good reason to not just be flying fusion pistol squads.
Polychromatic Storm: A little spendy if I'm being honest. You could probably pull some shenanigans with it, but harlequins are pretty Cp-thirsty.
Curtain Falls: Same review as Poly Storm. Safety for harlequins is almost always in more close combat anyway, I can see a few situations where I'd rather move a unit instead of either sacrificing it to close combat or consolidating, but not that many situations. A sometimes food stratagem, not bad, not good.
Twilit Encore: Where have you been all my life? Love this one so, so, so much. I also love that you get the choice to move towards the closest model OR models in the unit that fell back - though I'm sure there's some grammatical slipup in there that the BCBs in the world will latch on to to argue that it doesn't work as obviously intended.
Foes of the Mind: Might be worth 2cp again in a heavy bike setup list. I don't know whether it'd be more useful to go for this or the Gloom pivotal role on your SS (Probably this tbh, since almost all weapons these days seem to be at least -1AP)
Virtuosos of the Webway: A Neat Trick, priced right for what it is.Harlequins arent super reliable out of the deep strike, so it's good to see this as 1cp.
Relics:
Shadowstone: Sure, why not. Seems fine.
Cegorach's Lament: Just like a better version of the dreaming shadow relic, that everyone gets. Neat. I guess if someone was a real dedicated Dreaming Shadow fan they might be mad about this, but I've honestly never met anyone who cared about the canonical harlequin masques.
Twilight Fang: The harlequins' version of that "slash captain" relic the space marines have got. Twilights Grasp combined with this bad boy gets you a troupe master who costs 60pts, makes 6 attacks minimum that hit on 2s, wound on 2s, ap-2 D2, and just does more if you pick the right troupes, use strats, or just wait for later battle rounds.
The Veil of Tears: Fun for a "Safe Solitaire" relic. I'd consider it a side-grade to the cloak of knives relic, but I would consider it less fun.
Domino Shroud: I think this one kind of sucks, since it's once per battle and you can't charge afterwards. I'm not really seeing a use that warrants wasting a relic on it.
Destiny's Child: Same deal here. Minor stat boost for a relic slot? When it's competing with stuff like Twilight Fang and Cloak of Knives and Cegorach's Lament? Nah man.
Only real use I can see for Domino Shroud is as a 1 use "Get out of Jail Free" card. Has the enemy lined up to hit your character with a psychic power? Zippity zap out at the end of their movement phase. They've got their guns aimed right at their face after falling back from combat? Appear behind your screen of murder clowns in their Psychic Phase. Did you just get charged by their Smash Captain and are about to be turned into a spectral paste? Well sucks to be him, you're now laughing just shy of 13" away from him.
But yeah, I share your view that it's a bit of a dud. Still cool, though.
Well it is basically don't charge this character as all it accomplishes is charger is out of position having done zero damage. I could think use for that with my armies. Albeit not sure how that fits harly army
While it seems that the update is popular, I have to ask - Does anyone see this justifying the place in a White Dwarf rather than with the rest of the Eldar PA stuff?
bullyboy wrote: This Harlie update is so good, wow GW....makes the effort with DW even more laughable now. So happy for my quins, there is a LOT to digest here.
pm713 wrote: While it seems that the update is popular, I have to ask - Does anyone see this justifying the place in a White Dwarf rather than with the rest of the Eldar PA stuff?
prettty much the opposite in my view. This being in PA would have MASSIVELY upped my perception of the value of PA.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The new Death Jester weapon seems automatically better than the old relic. Is there something I'm missing or not remembering correctly?
Nope, it for sure is 100% better. Except i guess for being S6 instead of S7?
tneva82 wrote: Rules from newer book better than older. What a shocker
Well, there are plenty of rules in here where the stuff in the codex is better, or just as good. In terms of relics, the Suit of Hidden Knives is still almost certainly the best harlequin relic.
Domino Shroud: I think this one kind of sucks, since it's once per battle and you can't charge afterwards. I'm not really seeing a use that warrants wasting a relic on it.
Looks to me like you could use that at the end of any phase, including enemy phases. Anything with an interrupt effect always feels like it has at least some ability to upset enemy plans. You could, for example, use it at the end of the enemy shooting phase and set up a Heroic Intervention. Or you could use it after you consolidate to move a further 12" to grab a key objective.
My main thought about Pivotal Roles is that if you are playing a primarily Harlequin force you will often have multiples of the main characters who previously would have been duplicating their abilities. Even the lower value abilities are worth consideration as an alternative to duplicate a non-stacking default ability.
How many times can you use the pivotal role stratagem for adding a pivotal role rather than swapping out the basic version? I feel like it's once per unit type so I could use it on a troupe master, solitaire and death jester but I haven't played in a while so I might be wrong.
Domino Shroud: I think this one kind of sucks, since it's once per battle and you can't charge afterwards. I'm not really seeing a use that warrants wasting a relic on it.
Looks to me like you could use that at the end of any phase, including enemy phases. Anything with an interrupt effect always feels like it has at least some ability to upset enemy plans. You could, for example, use it at the end of the enemy shooting phase and set up a Heroic Intervention. Or you could use it after you consolidate to move a further 12" to grab a key objective.
My main thought about Pivotal Roles is that if you are playing a primarily Harlequin force you will often have multiples of the main characters who previously would have been duplicating their abilities. Even the lower value abilities are worth consideration as an alternative to duplicate a non-stacking default ability.
Yea exactly. I think the domino shroud is one of the best relics actually. Far better then suit of hidden knives anyway. Most of the harley characters are never going to be as hard hitting as the troupes anyway and should be buffers. With the exception of the solitaire who always suicides after charging in. Now you can blink him away after the enemy moves lol. Notice it only requires you to be over 1" from enemies, so this is incredibly hard to zone out. So they probably surround him looking to shoot him, and you go "Nope!" and drop him into a building out of sight or better yet out of site and within heroic intervention range for later that turn. I think the characters all really leveled up here. You take a troupe master with pivotal roll and the reroll charge aura, because failing charges is a death sentence. You take a pair of shadow seers, one with the standard ability and the other the -6 to range because coupled with fire and fade and your bikes can now create 13" of extra distance for return fire. I think you OBVIOUSLY want a jester that stops overwatch, after that I can see the relic paired with the extra shots since it nukes multi wound infantry.
I honestly wouldn't bother with the relic sword, combat troupe masters are a trap IMO. Your better off keeping him around to buff the troupes longer because he still doesn't hit hard enough to merit throwing him away IMO. Edit: IDK I am actually on the fence with this guy, maybe a second one used as a guided missile at some primaris would be worth it but I feel like he will require to many other things to get him in and those hidden costs will mean he just breaks even usually.
Not sure which mask I would take, I still don't think soaring spite is great. Although you could now move and disembark a shadowseer and pop the CP to make all your vehicles -1 to wound which helps a lot, but I don't think the fusion pistols do enough and you still set yourself up for wrap and trap transport removal. I think I still lean midnight sorrow, that 6" pile in is amazingly useful to survive especially with twilight encore allowing you to continue to chase them and lock them down is you fail to tripoint a model.
pm713 wrote: How many times can you use the pivotal role stratagem for adding a pivotal role rather than swapping out the basic version? I feel like it's once per unit type so I could use it on a troupe master, solitaire and death jester but I haven't played in a while so I might be wrong.
If it's before the game begins and doesn't specify it can only be used a limited numer of times, you can use it an unlimited number of times.
So you could theoretically use it any number of times and have a bunch of chars with 2 rules.
Domino Shroud: I think this one kind of sucks, since it's once per battle and you can't charge afterwards. I'm not really seeing a use that warrants wasting a relic on it.
Looks to me like you could use that at the end of any phase, including enemy phases. Anything with an interrupt effect always feels like it has at least some ability to upset enemy plans. You could, for example, use it at the end of the enemy shooting phase and set up a Heroic Intervention. Or you could use it after you consolidate to move a further 12" to grab a key objective.
My main thought about Pivotal Roles is that if you are playing a primarily Harlequin force you will often have multiples of the main characters who previously would have been duplicating their abilities. Even the lower value abilities are worth consideration as an alternative to duplicate a non-stacking default ability.
Yeah, almost like having options on your characters is something players enjoy and generally always react favorably to.
Weird, that.
Hey, if GW wants to make all the rules vague, "personality trait" style things instead of wargear options that don't explicitly have a model, I am 100% game. Please gimme. You can cut my Archon's bike option and give him "Fantabulous Speedgility: This Archon Gains +6" of move and Fly for 30 points" and I'd be perfectly fine with that.
..I'm pleasantly surprised by the Harlequin rules, considering the space they had to work with. i recognize im giving a fair bit of credit to a name, but Pivotal roles allows for a fair bit of customization to go with the new relics, albeit im sure the best choices will arrive quickly to those who know the army.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Really weird to put nice rules like those in a white dward that won't be easily available for players starting the army one month later.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Really weird to put nice rules like those in a white dward that won't be easily available for players starting the army one month later.
They don't stop selling digital copies of WD.
Some people (me) have a weird thing about not using digital things like that.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Really weird to put nice rules like those in a white dward that won't be easily available for players starting the army one month later.
Seems like the small page count means they could easily be reprinted in chapter approved later this year.
Congrats for the harlies and boo on GW for the DW. The difference in effort is a bit shocking and stupid. Thanks GW, glad that aside from chaos marines DW can be the marines you dislike.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats for the harlies and boo on GW for the DW. The difference in effort is a bit shocking and stupid. Thanks GW, glad that aside from chaos marines DW can be the marines you dislike.
I apologize. I feel like I've doomed entire playerbases the way things are going
I'm sure it's just a coincidence but I'm starting to develop a persecution complex with these damn games. I play Word Bearers, Slaves to Darkness, Gloomspite, Tyranids, Deathwatch.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats for the harlies and boo on GW for the DW. The difference in effort is a bit shocking and stupid. Thanks GW, glad that aside from chaos marines DW can be the marines you dislike.
Welcome to the salt mines brother. Plenty of room for everyone.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats for the harlies and boo on GW for the DW. The difference in effort is a bit shocking and stupid. Thanks GW, glad that aside from chaos marines DW can be the marines you dislike.
I apologize. I feel like I've doomed entire playerbases the way things are going
I'm sure it's just a coincidence but I'm starting to develop a persecution complex with these damn games. I play Word Bearers, Slaves to Darkness, Gloomspite, Tyranids, Deathwatch.
I wouldn't take it to heart, but I can see where you'd feel this way. It's alright, I'm sure it's not your fault but it seems like they may be watching you and judging effort given accordingly. LOL, I'm kidding of course.
As there is no practical way to get a physical copy of White Dwarf unless I order direct from GW, I was going to get a digital copy.
Physical copy: US$9.00
Digital copy: US$9.99
The digital copy of White Dwarf costs more than then physical copy! In what world does that make any sense at all?!?! Do I get more content in the digital copy? Is there an index with links? Can I click on pictures and it expands into a 360° model? I can't believe GW charges more for the digital version. That's just INSANE.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Congrats for the harlies and boo on GW for the DW. The difference in effort is a bit shocking and stupid. Thanks GW, glad that aside from chaos marines DW can be the marines you dislike.
Welcome to the salt mines brother. Plenty of room for everyone.
Eh, I'm just returning home, I played the Dark Angel end of 4th codex for its lifespan while the much better Vanilla codex blew it away. Remember back when DA players could only take marine squads in groups of 5 or 10 ? All that Deathwing got was fearless ? All ravenwing could do was take single, individual attack bikes and speeders and teleport homers for those awful boring Deathwing ? We had just worse storm shields and smoke for years ? Yeah that was me, hence this name. So the salt mine is a place I'm super familiar with.
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Tamwulf wrote: As there is no practical way to get a physical copy of White Dwarf unless I order direct from GW, I was going to get a digital copy.
Physical copy: US$9.00
Digital copy: US$9.99
The digital copy of White Dwarf costs more than then physical copy! In what world does that make any sense at all?!?! Do I get more content in the digital copy? Is there an index with links? Can I click on pictures and it expands into a 360° model? I can't believe GW charges more for the digital version. That's just INSANE.
The extra dollar is the cost of the honor or leasing the digital copy and honoring their net goblins with your business.
Harlequin rules seem to have come out pretty good.
It's nice to see some abilities to make the solitaire the scary monster he's supposed to be, but also some troupe master rules that push it closer to a solitaire as well.
Looks like the one Strat can keep being used on your characters which is good. CP can be easily bought for Harlequins as hungry as they are for it. Give all your Troupe Masters, Psykers, and the Solitaire an extra ability and not worry about replacing anything.
Meanwhile you can probably just trade what the Death Jester has (the overall useless LD debuff) for something else.
Tamwulf wrote: As there is no practical way to get a physical copy of White Dwarf unless I order direct from GW, I was going to get a digital copy.
Physical copy: US$9.00
Digital copy: US$9.99
The digital copy of White Dwarf costs more than then physical copy! In what world does that make any sense at all?!?! Do I get more content in the digital copy? Is there an index with links? Can I click on pictures and it expands into a 360° model? I can't believe GW charges more for the digital version. That's just INSANE.
In the UK, physical books and magazines are VAT exempt, digital versions are not (until December). Maybe it's something to do with that?
Tamwulf wrote: As there is no practical way to get a physical copy of White Dwarf unless I order direct from GW, I was going to get a digital copy.
Physical copy: US$9.00
Digital copy: US$9.99
The digital copy of White Dwarf costs more than then physical copy! In what world does that make any sense at all?!?! Do I get more content in the digital copy? Is there an index with links? Can I click on pictures and it expands into a 360° model? I can't believe GW charges more for the digital version. That's just INSANE.
In the UK, physical books and magazines are VAT exempt, digital versions are not (until December). Maybe it's something to do with that?
shouldn't be an issue given he's an American, GW shouldn't be adding VAT to sales outside the UK.
You still need to pay for the design, layout, photographers, staff, etc. Only a part of the cost of books/publications is the dead trees and ink.
With digital stull you don’t have the bulk shipping costs, but you do have server space, bandwidth, etc. They still need to pay something to get it to you.
Hellebore wrote: Harlequin rules seem to have come out pretty good.
It's nice to see some abilities to make the solitaire the scary monster he's supposed to be, but also some troupe master rules that push it closer to a solitaire as well.
Darkness' Bite seems nice for guaranteed MW so long as the Troupe Master can keep surviving. Maybe try to make the Troupe Master more survivable with Veil of Tears relic and grind down otherwise tough enemies through the auto MW?
I see thematic potential for Harlequin warlord to go extreme "grimdark" by choosing Darkness' Bite along with Player of the Dark warlord trait.
It's a pity there was no fluff blurb to go with these Pivotal Role abilities. Somehow I can picture the Troupe Master with Darkness' Bite doing the whole "Omae wa mou shindeiru" meme.
Tamwulf wrote: As there is no practical way to get a physical copy of White Dwarf unless I order direct from GW, I was going to get a digital copy.
Physical copy: US$9.00
Digital copy: US$9.99
The digital copy of White Dwarf costs more than then physical copy! In what world does that make any sense at all?!?! Do I get more content in the digital copy? Is there an index with links? Can I click on pictures and it expands into a 360° model? I can't believe GW charges more for the digital version. That's just INSANE.
In the UK, physical books and magazines are VAT exempt, digital versions are not (until December). Maybe it's something to do with that?
shouldn't be an issue given he's an American, GW shouldn't be adding VAT to sales outside the UK.
Yes, but GW's exchange rates are always based on UK retail price which includes VAT.
SamusDrake wrote: Cheers, Dudeface, for the preview of the Harlequin rules. So glad I picked them as a "welcome back to the hobby" faction, as I wasn't sure at first.
I'll be kitbashing a Death Jester from leftover pieces from Eldar Guardians and Void Weaver kits, so this has come a good time!
Does the WDPA article come with a bit of background fluff for the Harle's part in the whole PA story arc, or is it just the rules?
There isn't any more space for fluff in the WD, but there is PA fluff for Harlies scattered in Phoenix Rising.
This is wishful thinking, but it would be great if they had a new Death Jester variant model in the next preview. Its the only Harlequin model that gets repetitive beyond two and they then look like background extras from Hitchcock's The Birds!
There isn't any more space for fluff in the WD, but there is PA fluff for Harlies scattered in Phoenix Rising.
Cheers for that. Its not a negative by any means as the rules are the most important thing, but it would have been the icing on the cake. At six pages...maybe they could have squeezed the rules into Phoenix Rising, which would have made it the essential companion for all Aeldari players.
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Argive wrote: so harlies get more in WD then CWE + DE + Ynnari got in PA book. GW trollin us hard..
Afterall....Harlequins, in the end...always get the last laugh!
Boom-boom!
Actually, I can see it now..."the Masque of the Basil Brush!"
SamusDrake wrote: This is wishful thinking, but it would be great if they had a new Death Jester variant model in the next preview. Its the only Harlequin model that gets repetitive beyond two and they then look like background extras from Hitchcock's The Birds!
Go on ebay and get the old metal one. All the 2nd ed era death jester models are gold - one of them has a big goofy gangster coat and two pistols, and one of them has the ammo for his shieker in a big doofy skull on his back.
SamusDrake wrote: This is wishful thinking, but it would be great if they had a new Death Jester variant model in the next preview. Its the only Harlequin model that gets repetitive beyond two and they then look like background extras from Hitchcock's The Birds!
Go on ebay and get the old metal one. All the 2nd ed era death jester models are gold - one of them has a big goofy gangster coat and two pistols, and one of them has the ammo for his shieker in a big doofy skull on his back.
Also sometimes even minor converting can make a model look wildly different. I don't know how viable it is for a Death Jester, but I had done it with Cairn Wraiths by simply trimming a bit of the connecting point on the arms that poked out from under their shrouds.
Serious question--is there an alternate weapon option for a Death Jester? Cause I'd be down for another model if there is.
Go on ebay and get the old metal one. All the 2nd ed era death jester models are gold - one of them has a big goofy gangster coat and two pistols, and one of them has the ammo for his shieker in a big doofy skull on his back.
Ah yeah, that is definitely the way to go with the DJs. I do remember the ye'olde Jesters and the previous metal model is absolute champion.
Even still, I do hope they do an alternative DJ like they had the Magus for the GSC.
Also sometimes even minor converting can make a model look wildly different. I don't know how viable it is for a Death Jester, but I had done it with Cairn Wraiths by simply trimming a bit of the connecting point on the arms that poked out from under their shrouds.
Its the kneeling pose it has on the debris that makes it a challenge to give it a wildly different look. Which is a shame because it looks amazing for a solitary DJ.
For the time being I'll be kitbashing between the Troupe, Star Weaver and Craftworld Guardian kits for an alternative DJ, using the 3rd Edition Dark Reaper Exarch as a reference. Can't wait to get stuck into that one!
Argive wrote: so harlies get more in WD then CWE + DE + Ynnari got in PA book. GW trollin us hard..
I certainly wouldn't lump CWE in that group. Sure, they needed new WTs and relics since the one in the book are crap, but custom craftworlds are used extensively, and some of the exarch powers are improvements and seeing use.
Up until now, all 8th edition WD releases have eventually been released as PDF, as part of a campaign book, in the corresponding codex or in a campaign book.
Argive wrote: so harlies get more in WD then CWE + DE + Ynnari got in PA book. GW trollin us hard..
I certainly wouldn't lump CWE in that group. Sure, they needed new WTs and relics since the one in the book are crap, but custom craftworlds are used extensively, and some of the exarch powers are improvements and seeing use.
Regarding Exarch powers, in pretty much all of the cases, 4 are pointless, one is ok... But none of them do abything with the inherent problems of aspect warriors being T3 1W infantry in the game where things like primaris marines are a the new base line. Same with traits, pretty everything apart from expert Crafters /masterful shots/concealment is wasted paper. Also Did the CHE really need a buff followed by a price hike?
My point was that ynnari, DE and 90% of the CWE is pointless.
Im very greatful for expert crafters /masters of concealment as that's freed us from Guide + doom as being the auto-take your army needs to rely and build around on. So Certainly not complaining there.
From what ive seen all of the quin stuff has utility and can be built on without hamstringing your entire army. I've been considering souping in quins as a contingent. And harlequins are a minor supplement level army I'm sorry to say (compared to CWE/DE). There only so many units they can get before it stops making sense. Bottom line is they got more in 4 pages of WD rules then a lot of factions got in an entire hard back book...
It seems some of the writers don't play the game or understand how the army they write rules for works against other armies. Not all codexes are created equal this we know. And not all PA stuff has been created equal either.
All im saying is If I was a quin player id be happy i only have to pay £5 for my PA update when looking at what others have gotten in a £20 hardback.
I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
I run wraithseer ynnari the relics and traits are great. Miles above CWE. I run triple wraithlords exclusively with expert crafters/masters of concealment and likewise if I run wraiths id go for either alitoic so I can ds a spirit seer with a relic and a -1 or ynnari wraithblades..
I think for shrunken, you'd just go Biel-tan above custom... Because re-roll 1s is just too good along with get acess to a free guide warlord trait which is actually useful warlord trait. plus can then use court of the young king for spears ot banshees.
I find you have to get really gamey and mix CWE traits and have 3 different detachments as no single trait works for all outside of maybe alitoic or bieltan..
Liking the harley rules. I think its the first WD mag I will actually buy.
I need to find a cheap codex for quins and DE.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
That's because we are playing with outdated rules didn't you know?
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
They should have that rule that Ghaz has where you can only inflict so much damage on them at a time.
Maybe per turn instead of per phase, as I don't think Phoenix Lords has as many wounds as Ghaz. That should make them a little more durable.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
I guess you boys slept through 7th edition eh? Harley Star ring a bell? Beast Packs? They aren't great in 8th sure, but they aren't exactly suffering by being in one of the strongest factions, so it isn't that bad playing with one.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
They should have that rule that Ghaz has where you can only inflict so much damage on them at a time.
Maybe per turn instead of per phase, as I don't think Phoenix Lords has as many wounds as Ghaz. That should make them a little more durable.
At least the Harlequins rules suggest they can do good Eldar material. I think the roles are great ways to add potency to a fairly bland list.
The harlequin characters look to be quite good now. The strategem to add a role means you can have a Solitaire with -1 to hit, 3++ and. And blitz which puts it closer to what it should be.
To be honest, until they redo aspects and exarchs to what they should be, Phoenix lords are going to keep sucking. When an exarch is still worse than a primaris sergeant you've got crappy design. Lack of initiative this edition, insistence on keeping exarchs as squad leaders rather than the independent characters they used to be that were one man ninja armies, will keep aspects mediocre.
Looking back at the 2nd Ed, the Eldar had more t6 special characters than all the marine codices combined - they had 3, Mangan, karandras and eldrad while the only t6 marine was mephiston...
The harlequin characters look to be quite good now. The strategem to add a role means you can have a Solitaire with -1 to hit, 3++ and. And blitz which puts it closer to what it should be.
Can also throw on Suit of Hidden Knives, which AFAIK triggers more easily with the -1 to hit from Unnatural Acrobatics. Not only is the Solitaire twisting around, you walk right into a blade that flicks out from his suit.
The harlequin characters look to be quite good now. The strategem to add a role means you can have a Solitaire with -1 to hit, 3++ and. And blitz which puts it closer to what it should be.
Can also throw on Suit of Hidden Knives, which AFAIK triggers more easily with the -1 to hit from Unnatural Acrobatics. Not only is the Solitaire twisting around, you walk right into a blade that flicks out from his suit.
Yeah I do really like that piece of wargear - like lilith's hair barbs. nothing says ninja fighing grace like a weaponised cummerbund.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
I guess you boys slept through 7th edition eh? Harley Star ring a bell? Beast Packs? They aren't great in 8th sure, but they aren't exactly suffering by being in one of the strongest factions, so it isn't that bad playing with one.
You mean the lists I didn't take seriously since they weren't good? Wow you got me there.
bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
That's because we are playing with outdated rules didn't you know?
That's hilarious.....yeah, that wonderful invuln save. Maybe GW staff get to play off a "secret menu" statsheet for their toys, it's in their benefits package.
Honestly if you read those matches I'd be surprised if they are actually playing at all. They are all pretty vague and give no parameters either. Who charges, starting distance, warlord traits, psychic powers, army doctrines etc. are all left in the air to the reader.
