bullyboy wrote: I still think you're giving CWE a low ball assessment. Wraith host armies much prefer the custom traits, shuriken heavy armies also. It's not all Night Spinners/CHE with Expert Crafters.
I do agree that Aspects need a lot more to compete in the new scene, which is surprising that they didn't address it when releasing plastic banshees/Jain Zar. How they feel that jain Zar should have 4 attacks is beyond me, that's basically a Primaris Sgt with shock assault.
Ynnari is OK...they got their full rules in the book....don't need to hunt down a WD now.
Drukhari is the only real loser in the book tbh.
All the Phoenix Lords have overall been lacking power for a long time.
Oh boy have they. I don't think they've been competitive since 2nd ed, when most of them had spare wargear slots to load up with buffs like displacer fields and combat drugs. Plus they had 3 exarch powers, oh the days when karandras and maugan were T6.
The current lack of invulnerable save is a relic of 4th ed where they got immunity to instant death so you had to whittle them down, which wasn't a bad way to represent the energy infused suit of armour they are (like the new eltharion). But now there's no rule to reflect that, they're just BAD. at least previously with high initiative their defence was to strike first and kill, or use eternal warrior to survive return attacks and kill on the next round...
Now they're just BAD space marine captains they inexplicably cost more than marine captains...
They should have that rule that Ghaz has where you can only inflict so much damage on them at a time.
Maybe per turn instead of per phase, as I don't think Phoenix Lords has as many wounds as Ghaz. That should make them a little more durable.
At least the Harlequins rules suggest they can do good Eldar material. I think the roles are great ways to add potency to a fairly bland list.
The harlequin characters look to be quite good now. The strategem to add a role means you can have a Solitaire with -1 to hit, 3++ and. And blitz which puts it closer to what it should be.
To be honest, until they redo aspects and exarchs to what they should be, Phoenix lords are going to keep sucking. When an exarch is still worse than a primaris sergeant you've got crappy design. Lack of initiative this edition, insistence on keeping exarchs as squad leaders rather than the independent characters they used to be that were one man ninja armies, will keep aspects mediocre.
Looking back at the 2nd Ed, the Eldar had more t6 special characters than all the marine codices combined - they had 3, Mangan, karandras and eldrad while the only t6 marine was mephiston...
Good lord, can you even IMAGINE the level of nerdrage if they released an eldar model with T6 that isn't a wraith unit? You still get people raging that stuff like the Kelermorph is "immersion breaking" because his pistols "invalidate bolt pistols" despite their fluff being more like something the admech would have than some kind of modified bolt pistol.
The new rules seem awefully good for the DJ. Already one of my favorite characters in the game. Still, I would prefer a set of standard abilities that one could kit out from a codex rather than this bonus card drip release power creep method. Maybe the sales people report low figures for DJ models, so the rules guys figure something out, until everything gets so bloated that they have to start over.
SamusDrake wrote: This is wishful thinking, but it would be great if they had a new Death Jester variant model in the next preview. Its the only Harlequin model that gets repetitive beyond two and they then look like background extras from Hitchcock's The Birds!
Go on ebay and get the old metal one. All the 2nd ed era death jester models are gold - one of them has a big goofy gangster coat and two pistols, and one of them has the ammo for his shieker in a big doofy skull on his back.
Also sometimes even minor converting can make a model look wildly different. I don't know how viable it is for a Death Jester, but I had done it with Cairn Wraiths by simply trimming a bit of the connecting point on the arms that poked out from under their shrouds.
Serious question--is there an alternate weapon option for a Death Jester? Cause I'd be down for another model if there is.
This is a DJ/autarch made from old metal stuff that could be used as a DJ without the wings:
Regarding Exarch powers, in pretty much all of the cases, 4 are pointless, one is ok... But none of them do abything with the inherent problems of aspect warriors being T3 1W infantry in the game where things like primaris marines are a the new base line. Same with traits, pretty everything apart from expert Crafters /masterful shots/concealment is wasted paper. Also Did the CHE really need a buff followed by a price hike?
,,,
From what ive seen all of the quin stuff has utility and can be built on without hamstringing your entire army. I've been considering souping in quins as a contingent. And harlequins are a minor supplement level army I'm sorry to say (compared to CWE/DE). There only so many units they can get before it stops making sense. Bottom line is they got more in 4 pages of WD rules then a lot of factions got in an entire hard back book...
,,,
I'm certainly looking to soup in some quins now
Agreed on every point. Harlequin should be a supplementary force, not a stand-alone army, but a complement to either Dark or Craftworld Eldar or others imho.
Maugan Ra is definitely a candidate for a DJ, being skull and bones and all that jazz. Wish I had kept my old Reapers from way back, especially that 3rd Edition Exarch...
For smaller sized games, I'm glad the Harlequins are a faction. Model wise they are very cost effective and for £50 the Troupe and Starweaver kits are not too far off a Start Collecting set, and are a good start for a patrol detachment. Then the Codex is a bit cheaper than the other ones in the range, and you only need a WD for the PA rules. Also, the Troupe kit alone provides a full 100 pt Kill Team...happy days!
I've mentioned this a few times before, and its to expand the Harlequin Codex to include the Ynnari rules. A Harlequin player can expand into larger games, while Ynnari players would only need a single codex book to get started.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I mean at least Maugan is slightly usable, with slightly being his KEYWORD
I think the old Skull-with-a-side-of-skulls chap is actualy a decent character. Synergies very well with a dark reapers and I have run him with MSU so that I dont have to take an autarch in the same detachment etc.. Its only a re-roll 1s aura, but its as good as we get and unlike autarchs it doesnt care about craftworld trait... (guide only applies to one unit and you gotta roll for it and can be denied). Hes just far toooo expensive at the moment. He needs to be about 100 pts to be a reasonable chocie and even then... However as things stand hes great fun to use.
Overall yes.. sadly the PL's, aspects and exarchs are in a very sorry state.
The Quins rules look really good. Certainly bit envious there but at least its units I could potentially use. Been meaning to run a cheeky supreme command to get a solitaire in. Now finally might be the time
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
sorry to reopen this now dying thread, but have to laugh at this last statement with all we currently know!
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
sorry to reopen this now dying thread, but have to laugh at this last statement with all we currently know!
It's also funny, we've seen that some of the hints we've gotten take on a new meaning as well. The "Who now will stand against Chaos? Be careful what you wish for..." for instance.
sorry to reopen this now dying thread, but have to laugh at this last statement with all we currently know!
Bah, a lucky fluke! This will go to your head so much you'll all be predicting that Engine War and a Start Collecting AdMech will be up for preorder next saturday...
sorry to reopen this now dying thread, but have to laugh at this last statement with all we currently know!
Bah, a lucky fluke! This will go to your head so much you'll all be predicting that Engine War and a Start Collecting AdMech will be up for preorder next saturday...
nah, Engine War and War of the Spider have zero interest for me.
Dude was able to dissect a Hrud. Pretty impressive, given that a dead Hrud usually ages/liquifies pretty quick. I guess the guy in that Xenology was able to dissect one too, but still nice that the bendy bois get a shout out
Tastyfish wrote: Picture there has one of the new Skorptek Destroyers with a bit of Blackstone on them.
I wonder if Pariah will have the full set of Necron datasheets, an update alternative to the new codex in the way Viligus burns was for Chaos?
I'm guessing Necrons will be the first new codex for 9E. It looks like they're adding way too much stuff, and the comments GW has made thus far suggest to me that it's not coming down with Pariah.
Dude was able to dissect a Hrud. Pretty impressive, given that a dead Hrud usually ages/liquifies pretty quick. I guess the guy in that Xenology was able to dissect one too, but still nice that the bendy bois get a shout out
Well now it seems we now know what Szeras and his patron (Silent King?) are up to and also that not all agree with the accelerated version of the plan. GW is basically going with the Great Work plan from previous Necron background, where the Necrons expand their network of warp dampening pylons to seal off the galaxy from the warp, which in the process also seems to dampen the psychic potential and maybe will to resist from races with warp potential. Only it seems Szeras has sped up the plan and now the Imperium has noticed.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
sorry to reopen this now dying thread, but have to laugh at this last statement with all we currently know!
Necrons have a role to play, but I don't think it's the role of "the big bad" for 9th edition. Every psychic awakening book makes someone sound like the antagonistic focus against the imperium. Necrons will be in the box set, it makes sense from a marketing standpoint because of all the new models, but I don't think the focus will follow them much further than that. I hope I'm severely mistaken though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From everything I've seen, I'm a little worried necrons are going to wind up with half measures to fix the problems in the codex instead of creative rule writing/re-writing.
Not enough anti-tank & anti-monster weapons? Here's a quadruped walker with a tame version of the doomsday cannon.
Too slow on the battlefield? Warriors get a shorter range assault weapon.
You aren't able to create a decent close combat force? Skorpek destroyers.
Monolith is too expensive and underwhelming? Let's slap deathrays on it.
Like I said, I'm only a little worried. I'm hopeful we'll get a reworked version of tombworld deployment, reanimation protocols, and dynastic codes. I just can't shake the nagging feeling that GW are banking on new plastic to sell instead of well tested, interesting, and fully thought out rules.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
sorry to reopen this now dying thread, but have to laugh at this last statement with all we currently know!
Necrons have a role to play, but I don't think it's the role of "the big bad" for 9th edition. Every psychic awakening book makes someone sound like the antagonistic focus against the imperium. Necrons will be in the box set, it makes sense from a marketing standpoint because of all the new models, but I don't think the focus will follow them much further than that. I hope I'm severely mistaken though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From everything I've seen, I'm a little worried necrons are going to wind up with half measures to fix the problems in the codex instead of creative rule writing/re-writing.
Not enough anti-tank & anti-monster weapons? Here's a quadruped walker with a tame version of the doomsday cannon.
Too slow on the battlefield? Warriors get a shorter range assault weapon.
You aren't able to create a decent close combat force? Skorpek destroyers.
Monolith is too expensive and underwhelming? Let's slap deathrays on it.
Like I said, I'm only a little worried. I'm hopeful we'll get a reworked version of tombworld deployment, reanimation protocols, and dynastic codes. I just can't shake the nagging feeling that GW are banking on new plastic to sell instead of well tested, interesting, and fully thought out rules.
Everything so far really points to Necrons being the Antagonist of this edition. The most recent Short Story pretty painted that the Szeras has been behind almost all of the problems associated with the psychic awakening, at the behest of his Patron. With the Introduction of the Silent King, and what appears to be his Dynasty, they are really setting the stage for Necrons to be the villians now. This is similar to how Chaos took the stage for 8th, and I would not be surprised if toward the end of the edition they start setting the stage for the Nids.
As for half measures, no one can really say at this point. I don't think they are creating these models as half measures to fix the Army. The reality is the Army has really only been at the bottom of the barrel with it's 8th edition Codex and it's 3rd edition through part of 5th. Throught the rest of the Lifespan it's been anywhere from Dominant, to in really good shape.
There seems to have been a lot of effort and thought put into this release, so I am optimistic that the Developers put a little extra time into the development Codex. They have surely been aware of the issues plaguing the most recent dex.
Necrons being 'the big bad' started with "The Fall of Cadia", when Trazyn abducted Creed.
It then continued on with "Forgebane", which revealed that Belisarius Cawl and the Necrons have basically been engaged in a war the whole dang time of the Indomitus Crusade for the material known as "Blackstone".
Vigilus played a part in that, where the AdMech found blackstone that wasn't under Necron control.
So, it's finally coming out but looks very thin for rules. Inquisitors, Stern/Kyganil and Szeras being the only actual rules in the book with the rest filled with new mission content. However, if these missions don't have 9th in mind, they will be pretty much DOA. Hopefully we'll get more info this week.
bullyboy wrote: So, it's finally coming out but looks very thin for rules. Inquisitors, Stern/Kyganil and Szeras being the only actual rules in the book with the rest filled with new mission content. However, if these missions don't have 9th in mind, they will be pretty much DOA. Hopefully we'll get more info this week.
??
Its going to be like every other PA book with strats, traits and etc.
So yes, it'll be thin, but that's true for every single PA book
Not really one to go along with hyperbole, but Bullyboy might be right.
Pariah includes the details of Humanity’s horrific battles within the Pariah Nexus, along with new missions to let you recreate the key battles of the war. There are rules for using the Inquisition in Warhammer 40,000 including datasheets, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, the Telethesia psychic discipline, and now it’s easier than ever for them to join Imperium forces. You’ll also get access to new Theatres of War rules. These recreate conflicts from the Psychic Awakening series that let you fight everywhere from perilous jungles to devoured worlds.
Pariah features datasheets for four heroes and villains of the 41st Millennium. First up is Illuminor Szeras, the genius/maniac (delete as applicable) behind Necron biotransference. Now he stalks the galaxy seeking the secrets of life and new ways to augment Necron technology. He’s been working on his own body since we last saw him – it’s now larger, features some mysterious blackstone, and grants him the ability to manipulate energy at the atomic level.
Compare to War of the Spider:
Spoiler:
Fabius is the titular character in War of the Spider, the next book in the galaxy-spanning Psychic Awakening storyline. He returns to the ruins of Cadia,*** hunted by the Death Guard and Imperial agents. This would be too much for many people, but they don’t call him the Spider for nothing, so we’ll see who’s actually falling into who’s trap. The book has rules for the Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Imperial Assassins and Creations of Bile, a new way of playing Chaos Space Marines. Keep your eyes on the Warhammer Community website as we’ll be revealing some of these rules throughout the week. War of the Spider is available as in hardback and ePub formats as well as a deluxe collector’s edition, which includes short stories and a soft touch cover.
Engine War:
Spoiler:
The latest entry in the ongoing Psychic Awakening series updates no fewer than four factions with new rules, background material, and missions to play out the events. The focus has been on the Adeptus Mechanicus, because they have a slew of new models, but this book also covers Imperial Knights, Chaos Knights, and Chaos Daemons – including the latest units for Slaanesh!
This is a must-have tome for collectors of Adeptus Mechanicus, Knights of all kinds, and Chaos armies. Speaking of which, the sumptuously appointed collector’s edition is the best way to show your loyalty. It includes the same stunning black-on-black presentation we’ve seen with the rest of the Psychic Awakening books, plus the four short stories that were first published here printed inside!
I hope it isn't just Inquisition, but this might be a bit of another pointer for a new Necron book sooner rather than later.
I have to agree. The conspicuous absent of a statement saying there will be rules for Necrons means there will not be rules for Necrons. That will make Necrons the only army to not get any Psychic Awakening content. The best deduction from that is that a new Codex Necrons is imminent.
yeah, I was just going by the article. Didn't mention sisters content, other factions etc. Might be wrong, I was just going by what i saw. I'm still getting it because I'm intrigued with the ending of PA and want Stern/Kyganil and Inquisitor, but I hope the missions will carry over with new edition.
It seems really weird they'd release a PA that only updates the rules for a single faction, especially when only SoB and Necrons are left and they are both getting models in said PA. But that does seem to be what the previews are saying, and it is different than what the previews for the other PAs said.
Well, maybe. Or maybe it's all just a weird PR snafu and they and necrons are getting something beyond just the rules for the new models. We'll see soon enough I guess.
alextroy wrote: I have to agree. The conspicuous absent of a statement saying there will be rules for Necrons means there will not be rules for Necrons. That will make Necrons the only army to not get any Psychic Awakening content. The best deduction from that is that a new Codex Necrons is imminent.
My guess, Codex Necrons by the end of August.
Necrons are getting Iluminor Szeras as a new kit and with new rules.
Harlequins' Psychic Awakening stuff is in White Dwarf #454(Ghazghkull on the cover) alongside of the Lumineth rules for WarCry.
alextroy wrote: I have to agree. The conspicuous absent of a statement saying there will be rules for Necrons means there will not be rules for Necrons. That will make Necrons the only army to not get any Psychic Awakening content. The best deduction from that is that a new Codex Necrons is imminent.
My guess, Codex Necrons by the end of August.
Necrons are getting Iluminor Szeras as a new kit and with new rules.
Harlequins' Psychic Awakening stuff is in White Dwarf #454(Ghazghkull on the cover) alongside of the Lumineth rules for WarCry.
New rules for Illuminor Szeras. Not a word on any other Necron rules. While that is technically Necron content, it's the least content any faction has gotten, even Harlequins and Deathwatch via White Dwarf.
If I were a betting man, I'd say that Necrons, Deathwatch, and Harlequins will be the first three codexes of 9th Edition. Of course, I could just be guessing from GW's tea leaves.
They've already said in some of the shows about 9th edition that Necrons are going to be one of the first (if not the first) books released. Pete Foley and Stu Black also said that deathwatch would be coming not long after 9th edition drops.
Another pass for me. Got burned with the first few PA books and decided not to bother with them, unless it was for a faction I was playing right now. And while I am planning on restarting Necrons, 9th and there new Codex will most likely be out(or very close) before I can do anything other than build and paint.
jeff white wrote: Harlequins should never have been considered a stand alone army. Neither should mechanicus frankly...
OK, I can juuust about see why you’d think that about Harlequins (same reason DE shouldn’t be in Epic, more or less) I guess. Except that ignores just how small scale most 40k games actually are.
But Adeptus Mechanicus? The second human empire? The one that is completely separate both administratively and logistically and sends out it’s own fleets with no regard for the wishes of the Imperium?
If they don’t deserve a book, Eldar and Dark Eldar should either be in the same book or DE shouldn’t exist.
Yeah 40k battles are sooooooo tiny that pretty much anything goes anyway. Unit that's supposedly very rare in chapter? Fine. You can still field army of all those and not even break fluff since there would still be plenty more left. White scar dreadnoughts for example.
jeff white wrote: Harlequins should never have been considered a stand alone army. Neither should mechanicus frankly...
So a galaxy spanning Empire with truly vast numbers of military hardware and troops, plus a unique asthetic should not be a stand alone army but we should have how many "stand alone" marine armies consisting of a tiny number of Marines..... because.....
I think there's an argument that some forces don't really need to work standalone as they're entirely there for support roles (Harlies is a reasonable example, as a few bits of the Imperial range tbh) but that doesn't mean they need to be entirely folded into something else either.
While soup is being discouraged a bit in the new edition I think we'll still see a general direction of travel like in AOS where smaller factions that tend to ally happen more often to let GW do different things.
So when is Pariah and Ephrael Stern, etc. being released?
I'm guessing available for pre-order this weekend but they're usually not shy about repeating that sort of thing constantly and I don't see a date in Sunday's article.
Lanlaorn wrote: So when is Pariah and Ephrael Stern, etc. being released?
I'm guessing available for pre-order this weekend but they're usually not shy about repeating that sort of thing constantly and I don't see a date in Sunday's article.
yes, it was an article. Preorder this Saturday, release on July 4th. Which I guess means for us in the US, we'll get them July 5th since stores will be closed on the 4th.
the_scotsman wrote: I adore that the article that mentions Stern says that the harlequin
the very first harlequin named character in general.
First harlequin model ever released since Harlequins were rebooted in early 7th edition.
...Cannot seemingly be used in a harlequin army, but can be in any Imperium army. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
To be fair, we technically had a named Harlequin in 7th which was a Death Jester, but the only difference is he had either Stealth or Shrouded.
Yeah, he also got shot in the face in the little fluff booklet where he got introduced.
I will never understand GW's obsession with making these battle box-sets have a canonical winner and loser in the story that comes in the box. It isn't that hard gang, just write "How will the battle end? You'll have to play a game with your new miniatures to find out!"
1) that inquisitor Namey Mcnameface is the ONLY INQUISITOR EVER to have a shuriken catapult and xenos familiar. Other ordo xenos inquisitor are VERBOTEN from having such things!!!!
2) that inquisitor Namey Mcnameface has a super special imperial version of a shuriken catapult that's 24" range assault 4 S4 AP-3 D2 and does a mortal wound on a 6 to hit.
Following on the grand imperial tradition of every time they get some piece of stolen xenos equipment it gets to be 100% better than the xenos army they stole it from, ala the deathwatch stealing a necron lychguard power sword and making it suddenly ignore invuln saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the content of this book is:
1) Missions (that will be IMMEDIATELY obsolete in 9th ed)
2) special terrain boards (that will be IMMEDIATELY obsolete in 9th ed)
3) Inquisition rules (Copy/pasted from a white dwarf you can get online for 10$)
4) 4 new character datasheets.
Incredible. Seems GW is following that old business adage "when you want to make a series of something, start with gak, close out with gak, and stuff all the good things in the middle!"
tneva82 wrote: Players wanted "dynamic story" rather than setting
You described what 40k originally was. Then gw gave players what they wanted. Saturday cartoon
Sorry if some of us got bored with 'LOOK HOW SAD EVERYONE IS!!! ALL THE TIME!!! NOTHING BUT SADNESS!!! LETS GO LISTEN TO CANNIBAL CORPSE ALL DAY GUYS!!!' Which is what 40k actually was.
Having seen the index of the book in the 9th Edition rumor topic, I cannot help but wonder what the point of this book is. The Inquisition rules seem to be (mostly) a reprint of the White Dwarf rules. How do those 4 models warrant a full PA book, with a cinematic trailer showing off multiple factions, whereas Harlequins and Deathwatch get a White Dwarf update? Even more ironic that the WD rules of the Inquisition apparently do need to be covered (again) in a PA book...
GW: Hey Sisters players.
Sisters Players: Yeah?
GW: You know how the Psychic Awakening books have a host of new custom chapter/regiment/Knight House/etc. rules for the various factions, along with a list of new relics, warlord traits and -tons- of stratagems?
Sisters Players: We sure do!
GW: Well feth you. You get a Harlequin.
I mean, I thought being relegated to White Dwarf was bad, but at least the Harlis got some half-way decent rules. They don't even get a name generator FFS!
Us3Less wrote: Having seen the index of the book in the 9th Edition rumor topic, I cannot help but wonder what the point of this book is. The Inquisition rules seem to be (mostly) a reprint of the White Dwarf rules. How do those 4 models warrant a full PA book, with a cinematic trailer showing off multiple factions, whereas Harlequins and Deathwatch get a White Dwarf update? Even more ironic that the WD rules of the Inquisition apparently do need to be covered (again) in a PA book...
Embarrassed GW PR rep shuffles into press conference, not making eye contact
"hey everybody hope you're all excited for the exciting conclusion of the psychicawakeningepicsaga... we've got some real cool new miniatures for this one it's your favorite ephrel stern....the mini designer said she was supposed to be falling like on the book cover but she just kinda looks like marilyn monroe went super saiyan. She's got her boyfriend with her kryghdlhgl, focus groups couldnt tell he was supposed to be a harlequin so we put some diamonds on the base there.
Sigh...we've got some missions and terrain stuff in there...I know everyone is real excited about the upcoming redesigned missions and terrain rules for 9th edition we've been previewing...this isn't that, but like, we think it might be real fun to simulate the diverse battlefields of the 41st millennium... you won't believe how many different ways these missions will deal mortal wounds to units on a 1...Legal tells me I have to tell you not to try and get a game in with these rules before quarantine lifts though.
Oh, also we wanted to do a reprint of the inquisition stuff we did in the white dwarf. So i guess the inquisition is in there in the mix....heres a miniature we took from AOS that we were gonna do but we couldn't figure out which faction it was for so we stuck a shuriken catapult on it...her name's...I forget, it's fine whatever...
And lastly we've got this spider guy, he's pretty cool. I mean you've already seen all the new necron stuff. That's gonna come later, like, next month. His rules are gonna be in the codex too. Not really a point to getting the book for him.
Anyway, that's the preview. Uh. Psychic awakening, um.. what'd we call this one? Whatever, it's stupid, just..the new edition is next month.
1) Missions (that will be IMMEDIATELY obsolete in 9th ed)
2) special terrain boards (that will be IMMEDIATELY obsolete in 9th ed)
3) Inquisition rules (Copy/pasted from a white dwarf you can get online for 10$)
4) 4 new character datasheets.
Incredible. Seems GW is following that old business adage "when you want to make a series of something, start with gak, close out with gak, and stuff all the good things in the middle!"
Not quite:
1) Missions are narrative, so fine for 9th Edition if you aren't playing Matched Play
2) Specifically designed with 9th Edition in mind per Stu Black. The only pity about this is that they weren't published in the specific PA books they applied to. Did you notice there are 9 and the order they apply to the books in published order?
3) Maybe, maybe not. But now they will be in print rather than a WD that can only be purchased electronically or at an inflated rate via eBay.
4) Yes. 4 new character datasheets, which is actually more than many PA got.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW: Hey Sisters players.
Sisters Players: Yeah?
GW: You know how the Psychic Awakening books have a host of new custom chapter/regiment/Knight House/etc. rules for the various factions, along with a list of new relics, warlord traits and -tons- of stratagems?
Sisters Players: We sure do!
GW: Well feth you. You get a Harlequin.
I mean, I thought being relegated to White Dwarf was bad, but at least the Harlis got some half-way decent rules. They don't even get a name generator FFS!
The stupid thing is, I didn't expect anything for Sisters after their army box had Faith & Fury printed on it. I figured that was their F&F PA release, and that's that. But then GW specifically said we'd get more content in another PA book. The Sisters codex is a great book, with a lot of content, so luckily I don't feel additional PA content was needed to 'complete' my army. Saying we get more content which is just a single model is really dumb though. Well, GW is GW again, I guess. They do a lot of hit and misses for me, always a bit of a coin flip if something new is good or bad.
tneva82 wrote: Players wanted "dynamic story" rather than setting
You described what 40k originally was. Then gw gave players what they wanted. Saturday cartoon
Sorry if some of us got bored with 'LOOK HOW SAD EVERYONE IS!!! ALL THE TIME!!! NOTHING BUT SADNESS!!! LETS GO LISTEN TO CANNIBAL CORPSE ALL DAY GUYS!!!' Which is what 40k actually was.
Cannibal Corpse, and death metal in general, has absolutely nothing to do with "being sad all the time". You've obviously never seen them live in concert.
tneva82 wrote: Players wanted "dynamic story" rather than setting
You described what 40k originally was. Then gw gave players what they wanted. Saturday cartoon
Sorry if some of us got bored with 'LOOK HOW SAD EVERYONE IS!!! ALL THE TIME!!! NOTHING BUT SADNESS!!! LETS GO LISTEN TO CANNIBAL CORPSE ALL DAY GUYS!!!' Which is what 40k actually was.
Cannibal Corpse, and death metal in general, has absolutely nothing to do with "being sad all the time". You've obviously never seen them live in concert.
Yeah they're more akin to watching a Horror movie live. If you want sad you can go either two routes: The Cure/The Smiths/Joy Division route or the Depressive Black Metal route. The former stuff aren't great but compared to the latter...it's the second coming of Rush or something. Example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXCmJr6QCBU
ERJAK wrote: Sorry if some of us got bored with 'LOOK HOW SAD EVERYONE IS!!! ALL THE TIME!!! NOTHING BUT SADNESS!!! LETS GO LISTEN TO CANNIBAL CORPSE ALL DAY GUYS!!!' Which is what 40k actually was.
Cannibal Corpse isn't sad. Like, it's more angry all the time than sad all the time. Could have at least picked a doom metal band or something.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW: Hey Sisters players.
Sisters Players: Yeah?
GW: You know how the Psychic Awakening books have a host of new custom chapter/regiment/Knight House/etc. rules for the various factions, along with a list of new relics, warlord traits and -tons- of stratagems?
Sisters Players: We sure do!
GW: Well feth you. You get a Harlequin.
I mean, I thought being relegated to White Dwarf was bad, but at least the Harlis got some half-way decent rules. They don't even get a name generator FFS!
Are you saying Sisters of Battle player would be justified to complain about not getting enough stuff?
Some demons are building snowmen lol.
Pretty funny seeing some posters were shouting down others "They said sisters will get their own PA release!!". They did....she's called Ephrael Stern.
Half the Sisters of Battle PA is a Harlequin named character.
And yes, I can't wait to see the stats on the Inquisitor's Shuriken Catapult - we can all find out what the stats should have been in the first place if it wasn't a Xenos faction.
yukishiro1 wrote: Half the Sisters of Battle PA is a Harlequin named character.
And yes, I can't wait to see the stats on the Inquisitor's Shuriken Catapult - we can all find out what the stats should have been in the first place if it wasn't a Xenos faction.
....not a harlequin named character if you can't take him in a harlequin army.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW: Hey Sisters players.
Sisters Players: Yeah?
GW: You know how the Psychic Awakening books have a host of new custom chapter/regiment/Knight House/etc. rules for the various factions, along with a list of new relics, warlord traits and -tons- of stratagems?
Sisters Players: We sure do!
GW: Well feth you. You get a Harlequin.
I mean, I thought being relegated to White Dwarf was bad, but at least the Harlis got some half-way decent rules. They don't even get a name generator FFS!
It was a lose/lose situation, so close to the codex anything they put out would have been "but it should be in the coddx stop splitting material out". As it is they're now panned for not putting more stuff out, tbh I thought there'd be a custom orders section maybe but that's it.
My fear is crons got little because they have a 9th ed codex round the corner, sisters got little because same maybe?
It appears to be a Inqusiiton book rather than a SOB book - which is fine by me - i am still surprised that there was even a new Sisters model coming out.
big question - do Inquisitors finally get power armour as an option
2) Specifically designed with 9th Edition in mind per Stu Black. The only pity about this is that they weren't published in the specific PA books they applied to. Did you notice there are 9 and the order they apply to the books in published order?
Designed like stuff in PA that gets invalidated in 9th? Sister codex was also supposedly(according to GW) written with 9th ed in mind yet it has part of it's content literally invalidated by 9th. Not even "this ability is super weak now". Literally ability that is granted 100% by 9th ed.
Mr Morden wrote: It appears to be a Inqusiiton book rather than a SOB book - which is fine by me - i am still surprised that there was even a new Sisters model coming out.
big question - do Inquisitors finally get power armour as an option
50$ says there are exactly two changes from the WD rules.
1) INQUISITION keyword units can be included in any IMPERIUM detachment that includes an INQUISITOR without breaking bonuses (ala the Assassins' new Imperial Agents rule)
2) new datasheet for the new inquisitor, who will have power armor, but regular inquisitors will not be able to take power armor.
I guess when the book was written, we weren't supposed to know about Idomitus. But it's funny that the old necron warriors and monolith are featured. Not surprisingly, the immortals are shown with the bronze color scheme. Once the new edition drops, all the older necron models will most likely be shown in bronze, like how the Tau went from orange to white as the poster boys.
Prepare to be bummed. If he could be fielded by quins they would have said so by now. On at least two occasions now they've said they can be fielded by the Imperium, there's no suggestion you can just take one or the other, and he's described as having "been" (note past tense) a Harlequin.
dan2026 wrote: So are Necrons getting a new codex then?
I guess they must be.
That was already a given (just from the sheer number of new units and the cover art), but this approach makes me laugh a little.
Kdash wrote:Wow... So we all knew Necrons would get an update early after the launch of 9th, but damn they got shafted in this series.
This isn't a 'shaft,' this is a pure advantage. No necron player has to pay for the PA errata. They just get to look forward to a hopefully much improved codex (it can't be much worse than the current one).
Mr Morden wrote: It appears to be a Inqusiiton book rather than a SOB book - which is fine by me - i am still surprised that there was even a new Sisters model coming out.
big question - do Inquisitors finally get power armour as an option
50$ says there are exactly two changes from the WD rules.
1) INQUISITION keyword units can be included in any IMPERIUM detachment that includes an INQUISITOR without breaking bonuses (ala the Assassins' new Imperial Agents rule)
2) new datasheet for the new inquisitor, who will have power armor, but regular inquisitors will not be able to take power armor.
They already have point 1, 2 is a given but there are more pages as each special character gets a page now.
Mr Morden wrote: It appears to be a Inqusiiton book rather than a SOB book - which is fine by me - i am still surprised that there was even a new Sisters model coming out.
big question - do Inquisitors finally get power armour as an option
50$ says there are exactly two changes from the WD rules.
1) INQUISITION keyword units can be included in any IMPERIUM detachment that includes an INQUISITOR without breaking bonuses (ala the Assassins' new Imperial Agents rule)
2) new datasheet for the new inquisitor, who will have power armor, but regular inquisitors will not be able to take power armor.
They already have point 1, 2 is a given but there are more pages as each special character gets a page now.
They don't. Inquisitors can join IMPERIUM detachments but Acolytes, Jokaeros and Daemonhosts can only be fielded in INQUISITION vanguard detachments.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW: Hey Sisters players.
Sisters Players: Yeah?
GW: You know how the Psychic Awakening books have a host of new custom chapter/regiment/Knight House/etc. rules for the various factions, along with a list of new relics, warlord traits and -tons- of stratagems?
Sisters Players: We sure do!
GW: Well feth you. You get a Harlequin.
I mean, I thought being relegated to White Dwarf was bad, but at least the Harlis got some half-way decent rules. They don't even get a name generator FFS!
It was a lose/lose situation, so close to the codex anything they put out would have been "but it should be in the coddx stop splitting material out". As it is they're now panned for not putting more stuff out, tbh I thought there'd be a custom orders section maybe but that's it.
My fear is crons got little because they have a 9th ed codex round the corner, sisters got little because same maybe?
And HBMC would have been first in line to level that criticism.
NinthMusketeer wrote: And HBMC would have been first in line to level that criticism.
Not really. It's annoying to have such a massive source of rules in a separate book to your Codex, but I'd rather they have something than not have something.
Yeah, if only they had supposedly been planning PA and 9th edition for years and hadn't been forced to line it up so that Necrons would get the last PA book. But alas, God decreed on the 8th day that "Necrons will be first to get a new codex in 9th and last to get a PA update, deal with it gee-dubs!"
NinthMusketeer wrote: Whatever they got in PA would have just been rolled into the subsequent codex anyway, so I suspect they just chose to cut out the middle man.
Well, some of what they got. GW did say that the new Codices would take the "greatest hits" from PA. I can't wait to lose my "shoot as if stationary" strat for my Exocrines.
But not including Necron stuff in the PA is kinda weird, but with a new Codex right around the corner it makes sense.
I kinda suspect the whole "old codexes and PA books will still be valid" thing is just a "please continue buying our old books at full price!" plea more than it actually reflects reality. Just like "the indexes are still valid even after the codex is released," was, until they weren't any more.
Oh of course, but it's been that way since the start of 4th Ed.
Besides, pick a random army in 40K right now (besides Marines, Necrons and Deathwatch). That army isn't getting their 9th Ed book for another 2-3 years.
It's not like the start of 8th where the new rule set was completely incompatible with the last one, so they had to get the new Codices out quicksmart so everyone could keep playing (the entire reason the Indices existed).
Here there's no rush, as 9th is just a bit patch to 8th, so if your army draws the short straw in the re-write pipeline, be prepared to be using it for some time.
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah, if only they had supposedly been planning PA and 9th edition for years and hadn't been forced to line it up so that Necrons would get the last PA book. But alas, God decreed on the 8th day that "Necrons will be first to get a new codex in 9th and last to get a PA update, deal with it gee-dubs!"
You could look at that way. But GW has stated they see PA as both a rules update and a background launchpad into 9th Edition. So holding the Necrons to the last chapter was actually intentional. Pariah leads right into the Indomitus box and the focus point for the edition launch.
Basically, there goals are different than you think they are, so the results look odd.
yukishiro1 wrote: I kinda suspect the whole "old codexes and PA books will still be valid" thing is just a "please continue buying our old books at full price!" plea more than it actually reflects reality. Just like "the indexes are still valid even after the codex is released," was, until they weren't any more.
Not only that, they also said PA books were designed with 9th in mind. Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character. But 9th caps it at -1. Also, in faith&fury IW gets a warlord trait where units within 6" of the warlord ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. In 9th, only infantry suffers the penalty, making that warlord trait almost useless. Only CSM will benefit from that warlord trait.
yukishiro1 wrote: I kinda suspect the whole "old codexes and PA books will still be valid" thing is just a "please continue buying our old books at full price!" plea more than it actually reflects reality. Just like "the indexes are still valid even after the codex is released," was, until they weren't any more.
Not only that, they also said PA books were designed with 9th in mind. Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character. But 9th caps it at -1. Also, in faith&fury IW gets a warlord trait where units within 6" of the warlord ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. In 9th, only infantry suffers the penalty, making that warlord trait almost useless. Only CSM will benefit from that warlord trait.
So what I take from that is a warlord trait that does work in 9th but isn't very good, and if you go out of your way to force marginal fringe cases stacking - to hit, then it has limited benefit in 9th but still functions as a -5 cancels out a +5. Plus that's your choice to make them have such an unnecessary modifier.
Nothing they said about that book working in 9th is a lie.
p5freak wrote: Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character.
It's not a lie. It's Hanlon's Razor. Do you honestly think anyone at GW writing that book understood how you could stack bonuses like that? And if they did understand that, do you think their immediate next thought wasn't "But no one actually plays like that. Everyone just forges the narrative like we do here at the studio!" and then took a 3 hour lunch?
GaroRobe wrote: I guess when the book was written, we weren't supposed to know about Idomitus. But it's funny that the old necron warriors and monolith are featured. Not surprisingly, the immortals are shown with the bronze color scheme. Once the new edition drops, all the older necron models will most likely be shown in bronze, like how the Tau went from orange to white as the poster boys.
eh with june for original pariah release date and july for 9th ed 9th would be known anyway by the time pariah was coming.
Kdash wrote:Wow... So we all knew Necrons would get an update early after the launch of 9th, but damn they got shafted in this series.
This isn't a 'shaft,' this is a pure advantage. No necron player has to pay for the PA errata. They just get to look forward to a hopefully much improved codex (it can't be much worse than the current one).
Not being saddled with a PA book is just a win
Except you end up with less stratagems etc. Note PA books won't be fully incorporated into new codexes. So necrons are good for a while...and when factions with PA gets new codex they will have new codex AND more rules in PA.
So as usual factions with new stuff at the end and/or start of new edition gets shafted.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Whatever they got in PA would have just been rolled into the subsequent codex anyway, so I suspect they just chose to cut out the middle man.
Eeeh...No. GW has flat out said all PA content WILL NOT BE ROLLED OVER into codex.
This means that while some will to have all the rules you need both new codex(whenever it comes) AND PA book.
Except Stu flat out said yesterday on 40k daily that the reason there is little content in PA for Necrons is because the new codex is 'not a million miles away' and so it made little sense to put loads of new rules in Pariah.
So I think it is fair to say that whatever the necrons would have got with Pariah will be in their codex.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: Except Stu flat out said yesterday on 40k daily that the reason there is little content in PA for Necrons is because the new codex is 'not a million miles away' and so it made little sense to put loads of new rules in Pariah.
So I think it is fair to say that whatever the necrons would have got with Pariah will be in their codex.
Which means they would either have gotten less in PA to begin with(so behind the curve) or somehow necrons get bigger share(100%) of PA to codex when rest don't get all...So either behind curve or illogical solution.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh of course, but it's been that way since the start of 4th Ed.
Besides, pick a random army in 40K right now (besides Marines, Necrons and Deathwatch). That army isn't getting their 9th Ed book for another 2-3 years.
It's not like the start of 8th where the new rule set was completely incompatible with the last one, so they had to get the new Codices out quicksmart so everyone could keep playing (the entire reason the Indices existed).
Here there's no rush, as 9th is just a bit patch to 8th, so if your army draws the short straw in the re-write pipeline, be prepared to be using it for some time.
Honestly, I think they'll pump out a new book a quarter just like they do with AoS. It's an easy way for them to rake in profits and fits with the modern more savvy GW. It keeps the meta unsettled and pushes people to buy the new thing every few months as opposed to every few years.
Tbh, I feel bad for those who have bought/are buying the books, but from a balance perspective it would almost certainly be better to take PA and burn it all. Push all the custom traits, chapter specific psychic powers and so in into legends as the inevitable new round of codexes rolls out. Start again with a clean slate to re do chapters, psychic powers, stratagems etc - where obviously you can take what worked, but you don't drag around all the stuff that didn't.
Wouldn't bet on it though - and frankly, if they wanted to port all of PA across, for most factions we are talking about expanding their codexes by about 4 pages. Really not breaking the bank.
I can't see who is going to buy Pariah. Even if 9th edition wasn't weeks away, this seems totally irrelevant to everything. How this didn't end up being a white dwarf release is therefore beyond me - but I guess maybe things weren't meant to be squished together.
Really I think Psychic Awakening has been a bad series.
You can compare it with the Gathering Storm books I guess - but I think those generated more hype, because of the perceived gameplay and lore changes they heralded. They told a story, despite how people complained it was all Saturday cartoons. By contrast PA has really lacked any coherent narrative. "There are guys fighting here, but yeah, no one really wins, no one really loses."
I'm suspect we will ever see half of these battlefields again - and am certainly not convinced they will meaningfully impact the wider meta plot, if indeed there is one to begin with.
Even if it's one book a quarter, that's still a few years for some armies.
This is why Psychic Awakening exists, to update all the armies ('cept Sisters, it seems, and Necrons, but we know why for them) for 9th Ed. So if Custodes or Mechanicus don't get their new book until 2023, they've at least had big updates recently, be it with new units or the inclusion of Sisters of Silence.
One way that I saw it was that if Necrons get this big rules overhaul they talked about, any rules in that book would have to be written for 8th, then invalidated when the codex drops
And the probably don't want to write it based on the new stuff so it doesn't give anything away, if it would even work in 8th
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even if it's one book a quarter, that's still a few years for some armies.
This is why Psychic Awakening exists, to update all the armies ('cept Sisters, it seems, and Necrons, but we know why for them) for 9th Ed. So if Custodes or Mechanicus don't get their new book until 2023, they've at least had big updates recently, be it with new units or the inclusion of Sisters of Silence.
I think its highly unlikely GW will release one book a quarter.
Its been more like one book a month since 8th. I don't know who is buying them all - but if its working, I don't see why they'd change that.
Could be totally wrong, but I'd expect there to be an awful lot of 9th edition codexes released before the end of 2021.
But then I think PA has been a failure - while the business seems to have gone from strength to strength. So perhaps it will all be "PA2, Vigilus Reloaded".
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh of course, but it's been that way since the start of 4th Ed.
Besides, pick a random army in 40K right now (besides Marines, Necrons and Deathwatch). That army isn't getting their 9th Ed book for another 2-3 years.
It's not like the start of 8th where the new rule set was completely incompatible with the last one, so they had to get the new Codices out quicksmart so everyone could keep playing (the entire reason the Indices existed).
Here there's no rush, as 9th is just a bit patch to 8th, so if your army draws the short straw in the re-write pipeline, be prepared to be using it for some time.
oh god, please, no, don't let me get to use the codex I purchased for a long time....that sounds awful...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even if it's one book a quarter, that's still a few years for some armies.
This is why Psychic Awakening exists, to update all the armies ('cept Sisters, it seems, and Necrons, but we know why for them) for 9th Ed. So if Custodes or Mechanicus don't get their new book until 2023, they've at least had big updates recently, be it with new units or the inclusion of Sisters of Silence.
I think its highly unlikely GW will release one book a quarter.
Its been more like one book a month since 8th. I don't know who is buying them all - but if its working, I don't see why they'd change that.
Could be totally wrong, but I'd expect there to be an awful lot of 9th edition codexes released before the end of 2021.
But then I think PA has been a failure - while the business seems to have gone from strength to strength. So perhaps it will all be "PA2, Vigilus Reloaded".
except with 8th they made all codexes useless, so they wanted to pump out books faster so everybody could have a codex as fast as possible. This isn't needed this time, so they can do more codex releases like in the past, so a new codex with a couple of kits
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh of course, but it's been that way since the start of 4th Ed.
Besides, pick a random army in 40K right now (besides Marines, Necrons and Deathwatch). That army isn't getting their 9th Ed book for another 2-3 years.
It's not like the start of 8th where the new rule set was completely incompatible with the last one, so they had to get the new Codices out quicksmart so everyone could keep playing (the entire reason the Indices existed).
Here there's no rush, as 9th is just a bit patch to 8th, so if your army draws the short straw in the re-write pipeline, be prepared to be using it for some time.
I think harlequins will get a new codex fairly soon in 9th edition as well, seeing how their PA is a white dwarf article. Besides that I think gw will release more codices in 2-3 years
If they don't need to do large model releases or if they plan them around something like the Sisters and Lumineth Army Packs or what we're seeing for Necrons and the new Marine stuff, we could still see two codices a month with accompanying models without it being too overwhelming on their logistics side of things.
If they don't need to do large model releases or if they plan them around something like the Sisters and Lumineth Army Packs or what we're seeing for Necrons and the new Marine stuff, we could still see two codices a month with accompanying models without it being too overwhelming on their logistics side of things.
if they only had 40k, sure. But they have a second big game, one a little smaller and a bunch of side games that get support as well
They're discussing Inquisitors in the Pariah book today rather than 9th. Well done GW.
At one point he actually said that Inquisitors have "total freedom to do what is necessary". That made me laugh given that Inquisitors are one of the most hamstrung lists when it comes to weapon options and actual choices.
yukishiro1 wrote: I kinda suspect the whole "old codexes and PA books will still be valid" thing is just a "please continue buying our old books at full price!" plea more than it actually reflects reality. Just like "the indexes are still valid even after the codex is released," was, until they weren't any more.
Not only that, they also said PA books were designed with 9th in mind. Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character. But 9th caps it at -1. Also, in faith&fury IW gets a warlord trait where units within 6" of the warlord ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. In 9th, only infantry suffers the penalty, making that warlord trait almost useless. Only CSM will benefit from that warlord trait.
I have to agree with this statement. If you are developing rules with 9th in the back of your mind, you would not have created this warlord trait (Stoic Advance). In 8th, I might use this trait around Vindicators, helbrutes, etc. In 9th, I don't need to. Havocs don't need it as they already ignore this rule. Literally the only unit it could possibly apply to is Chaos Space Marines who have taken a heavy weapon.
p5freak wrote: Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character.
It's not a lie. It's Hanlon's Razor. Do you honestly think anyone at GW writing that book understood how you could stack bonuses like that? And if they did understand that, do you think their immediate next thought wasn't "But no one actually plays like that. Everyone just forges the narrative like we do here at the studio!" and then took a 3 hour lunch?
Hell, you can't even do a -2 to hit now from just one of the Warlord Traits!
p5freak wrote: Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character.
It's not a lie. It's Hanlon's Razor. Do you honestly think anyone at GW writing that book understood how you could stack bonuses like that? And if they did understand that, do you think their immediate next thought wasn't "But no one actually plays like that. Everyone just forges the narrative like we do here at the studio!" and then took a 3 hour lunch?
Hell, you can't even do a -2 to hit now from just one of the Warlord Traits!
But your oppnent can do a +1, leaving you on a -1 net
PA has been a bit of a dud in reality, what did we get models wise?
Jain Zar and Banshees...to be fair, nice models but rules let them down.
Drazhar and Incubi...as above, although I hear Drazhar significantly improved. Not familiar enough to comment.
New Mephiston...nice model and choice.
New Chaos Sorcerer....really?
Lazarus...Nice model, although I feel many DA fans would have preferred an update to existing character
New Shadowsun....OK, I guess?
New Ghazkul....yeah, he's a beast, nice job there.
New Ragnar...like mephiston, nice model,, good choice.
Admech updates....probably biggest winner model wise?
New Fabious Bile...OK? Nice model, just not sure how popular he will be.
Ephrael Stern and Kyganil...Rules will dictate inclusion
New Inquisitor...Like the model, and since an integral part of series, good choice.
New Szeras...also nice model, overshadowed by other new nice necron models however.
So there are some decent updates, but they definitely over promised and under delivered in the time frame for these books.
Rules wise, the series has been completely schizophrenic.
p5freak wrote: Its a lie. In faith&fury AL can get up to -5 to hit on a chaos lord, or -4 on a disco lord, or any other character.
It's not a lie. It's Hanlon's Razor. Do you honestly think anyone at GW writing that book understood how you could stack bonuses like that? And if they did understand that, do you think their immediate next thought wasn't "But no one actually plays like that. Everyone just forges the narrative like we do here at the studio!" and then took a 3 hour lunch?
Hell, you can't even do a -2 to hit now from just one of the Warlord Traits!
But your oppnent can do a +1, leaving you on a -1 net
You're missing the grant point as +1 to hit isn't a common occurrence.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Love that the Inquisitor's shuriken catapult is better than the standard Eldar one.
While it is inventible better than an standard Shuriken Catapult since they don't give characters "special" stock weapons, it's really just a (non-existing) Master-Crafted Avenger Shuriken Catapult with a fancy name.
Yeah I'm actually pleasantly surprised. It appears you can have a whole retinue (acolytes, jokaero, daemonhost) without breaking your monofaction bonuses (whereas before that was only the case when you JUST included an inquisitor--I think?)
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah I'm actually pleasantly surprised. It appears you can have a whole retinue (acolytes, jokaero, daemonhost) without breaking your monofaction bonuses (whereas before that was only the case when you JUST included an inquisitor--I think?)
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah I'm actually pleasantly surprised. It appears you can have a whole retinue (acolytes, jokaero, daemonhost) without breaking your monofaction bonuses (whereas before that was only the case when you JUST included an inquisitor--I think?)
Yeah, this is what I was hoping for, and it's awesome. I can finally take my crazy monkey circus with my sisters and not nerf them.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Actually, I am, although I won't contain my somewhat disappointment with the content. However, I do plan to use Stern/Kyganil, have Inquisitors and mostly just want to see how they wrap this circus up fluff wise. Won't be the best use of $40, but probably not my worst either.
Eh, with Pariah being the final PA book, I am interested in the fluff. I'm also pretty interested in Inquisition, so that's a plus.
I think of it more as a short story with a nice cover that includes rules for an army/faction that I like. Still not sure I'm actually going to buy it--I might hold off and see how this stuff integrates with the upcoming app.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Same people who buy literally anything GW produce, which is quite a big chunk of people.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Same people who buy literally anything GW produce, which is quite a big chunk of people.
I think you might be right. At this point I might get the last 2 books just to get the full PA set. And I loudly made clear I would not get another PA book after the Phoenix book.was so disappointing
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Actually, I am, although I won't contain my somewhat disappointment with the content. However, I do plan to use Stern/Kyganil, have Inquisitors and mostly just want to see how they wrap this circus up fluff wise. Won't be the best use of $40, but probably not my worst either.
And this is part of the problem. Don't give GW money for printed material they don't deserve it for!
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Let me see...
Rules for Stern to add to my Sisters of Battle Army.
Rules for Inquisitors to add to my Sister of Battle Army.
Rules for thematic play should I get board of Matched Play.
I think I'll pick this up along with a copy of War of the Spider for the Assassin rules.
I could say it was too expensive, but who am I kidding. I purchased Severna Vail, Sister Superior Amalia Novena, and Sister Tariana Palos. I'm a sucker for a good female sculpt.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Love that the Inquisitor's shuriken catapult is better than the standard Eldar one.
While it is inventible better than an standard Shuriken Catapult since they don't give characters "special" stock weapons, it's really just a (non-existing) Master-Crafted Avenger Shuriken Catapult with a fancy name.
It's pretty much par for the course. Kyganil can't be taken by Eldar armies and even the imperium refuses to use shuriken catapults because a 12" ranged frontline weapon is as stupid now as it was when they decided to cut the range in half in 3rd ed.
I mean I more power to anyone who does buy it, I’m was just genuinely curious.
The Inquisition rules are available in a WD for a quarter or less of the price. These are the biggest section of rules and are essentially just a copy and paste job of some VERY half-butted rules.
The new characters will likely be 60+ USD for the Necron and probably 40+ for the pair, 30 for the Inquisitor, plus 40 for rules to use them. That just seems absurd, especially when the Necron rules will almost certainly be in the new Necron book that will be our likely early this Fall.
I guess the narrative stuff has a bit of value for play, but there is already so much out there in books with way more content/for free online I don’t really see the appeal of this book in particular.
I’m sure the inquisition rules are still as half baked as they ever were. They need better relics (looking at you xanthite demon weapon..) better henchmen stats, and ability to bring their own vehicles not just car jack.
Also need to bring back some of the other henchmen types that were shared with sisters. Also a standard troop choice, even if it’s just temp scion copy paste
dogfender wrote: I’m sure the inquisition rules are still as half baked as they ever were. They need better relics (looking at you xanthite demon weapon..) better henchmen stats, and ability to bring their own vehicles not just car jack.
Also need to bring back some of the other henchmen types that were shared with sisters. Also a standard troop choice, even if it’s just temp scion copy paste
I don't disagree with you there, it wouldn't take much to fluff the army out a little. But, if the entire selection can now be taken in an Imperial detachment, then making that scion battalion "Inquisitor scions" is easy.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Actually, I am, although I won't contain my somewhat disappointment with the content. However, I do plan to use Stern/Kyganil, have Inquisitors and mostly just want to see how they wrap this circus up fluff wise. Won't be the best use of $40, but probably not my worst either.
And this is part of the problem. Don't give GW money for printed material they don't deserve it for!
Value is in the eye of the beholder. If I bought GW products just for the rules, I'd be a sucker. Many do that, that is their prerogative. Pariah seems ripe to be used in Narrative games (like Vigilus was), and with the Risk 40K set coming later this year with decent Vigilus map, should have plenty to offer for narrative, campaign, and possibly Crusade games.
My concern with this book (other than the Sisters getting nothing, which just seems unusually cruel (or a day ending in "Y" if you're a Sisters player, I suppose)), is that it's got all these rules for different warzones. They sound like they are mission/terrain altering rules that could be very interesting.
And they're hitting a month before a new edition changes the terrain rules.
I fully acknowledge that everything GW had planned with PA (and all their releases, for that matter) were pushed back because of COVID and that they had no control over when this book was going to come out as the other two* missing PA books had to come out first. But still, it sucks that these rules seem to be something that just won't be around all that long.
*Or three, as many didn't get the Woof/Ork one before production shut down.
dogfender wrote: I’m sure the inquisition rules are still as half baked as they ever were. They need better relics (looking at you xanthite demon weapon..) better henchmen stats, and ability to bring their own vehicles not just car jack. Also need to bring back some of the other henchmen types that were shared with sisters. Also a standard troop choice, even if it’s just temp scion copy paste
Unfortunately it's not just a case of no model/no rule for the Inquisition. It comes down to the fact that the prevailing view on Inquisitors within the studio is that they shouldn't be an army, and thus they are relegated to a set of rule that are only one step above 'get you by' Indices so people can use their old minis. If anything it's a miracle they haven't been sent to "Legends".
It could change. For a great many years Genestealer Cults were specifically excluded from 40k because the man at the top didn't like them. He went, and instantly the Cults reappeared. Same could happen to the Inquisition.
H.B.M.C. wrote: My concern with this book (other than the Sisters getting nothing, which just seems unusually cruel (or a day ending in "Y" if you're a Sisters player, I suppose)), is that it's got all these rules for different warzones. They sound like they are mission/terrain altering rules that could be very interesting.
And they're hitting a month before a new edition changes the terrain rules.
If like some of the other rules already present in the PA books, it should carry over. Maiden Worlds for example.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Same people who buy literally anything GW produce, which is quite a big chunk of people.
Some people will bitch about literally anything GW produces, also quite a big chunk of people.
dogfender wrote: I’m sure the inquisition rules are still as half baked as they ever were. They need better relics (looking at you xanthite demon weapon..) better henchmen stats, and ability to bring their own vehicles not just car jack.
Also need to bring back some of the other henchmen types that were shared with sisters. Also a standard troop choice, even if it’s just temp scion copy paste
I don't disagree with you there, it wouldn't take much to fluff the army out a little. But, if the entire selection can now be taken in an Imperial detachment, then making that scion battalion "Inquisitor scions" is easy.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Actually, I am, although I won't contain my somewhat disappointment with the content. However, I do plan to use Stern/Kyganil, have Inquisitors and mostly just want to see how they wrap this circus up fluff wise. Won't be the best use of $40, but probably not my worst either.
And this is part of the problem. Don't give GW money for printed material they don't deserve it for!
Value is in the eye of the beholder. If I bought GW products just for the rules, I'd be a sucker. Many do that, that is their prerogative. Pariah seems ripe to be used in Narrative games (like Vigilus was), and with the Risk 40K set coming later this year with decent Vigilus map, should have plenty to offer for narrative, campaign, and possibly Crusade games.
You'd have a point if 40k was worth a damn for any sort of narrative gaming. In reality you're paying into half effort rules regardless.
What makes you think that ? Just because its called pariah, and necrons had pariah in the past ? Or because there is a necron on the cover ?
Or because the narrative is about the Necrons. Or the mini release alongside it is a big centrepiece Necron special character. Or because it sets up the plot for the next big 40K release. Or...
No really I couldn't imagine why it'd have anything for Necrons in there.
It's called Pariah simply because of Stern. Surely.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Even if it's one book a quarter, that's still a few years for some armies.
This is why Psychic Awakening exists, to update all the armies ('cept Sisters, it seems, and Necrons, but we know why for them) for 9th Ed. So if Custodes or Mechanicus don't get their new book until 2023, they've at least had big updates recently, be it with new units or the inclusion of Sisters of Silence.
True, it'll be three quarters space marines and one quarter everyone else for sure, and the lesser loved armies will languish a couple years.
dogfender wrote: I’m sure the inquisition rules are still as half baked as they ever were. They need better relics (looking at you xanthite demon weapon..) better henchmen stats, and ability to bring their own vehicles not just car jack.
Also need to bring back some of the other henchmen types that were shared with sisters. Also a standard troop choice, even if it’s just temp scion copy paste
I don't disagree with you there, it wouldn't take much to fluff the army out a little. But, if the entire selection can now be taken in an Imperial detachment, then making that scion battalion "Inquisitor scions" is easy.
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Actually, I am, although I won't contain my somewhat disappointment with the content. However, I do plan to use Stern/Kyganil, have Inquisitors and mostly just want to see how they wrap this circus up fluff wise. Won't be the best use of $40, but probably not my worst either.
And this is part of the problem. Don't give GW money for printed material they don't deserve it for!
Value is in the eye of the beholder. If I bought GW products just for the rules, I'd be a sucker. Many do that, that is their prerogative. Pariah seems ripe to be used in Narrative games (like Vigilus was), and with the Risk 40K set coming later this year with decent Vigilus map, should have plenty to offer for narrative, campaign, and possibly Crusade games.
Like DnD, running a narrative campaign with a group requires but one set of rules for the entirety of it, and I can't imagine an overwhelming number of people will be pug or tourny campaigning
Sabotage! wrote: So Pariah is a reprinting of the (pathetic) WD Inquisition rules, three characters and a couple different places you could theme your battles in?
Who is going to pay for this?
Same people who buy literally anything GW produce, which is quite a big chunk of people.
Some people will bitch about literally anything GW produces, also quite a big chunk of people.
Probably better not to overgeneralize, eh?
Careful!
I mean, I agree, but statements like that occasionally bring about strange 'end time' type responses!
Anyway, it is almost worth just waiting until we get the full reveal or 9th is released at this point.
GW's 'drip feed' here is...not helping things.
They really should just release the entire section of a phase as the preview - we still don't know how Fall Back works, and all GW has done with their snippets is create heartburn.
H.B.M.C. wrote: My concern with this book (other than the Sisters getting nothing, which just seems unusually cruel (or a day ending in "Y" if you're a Sisters player, I suppose)), is that it's got all these rules for different warzones. They sound like they are mission/terrain altering rules that could be very interesting.
And they're hitting a month before a new edition changes the terrain rules.
I fully acknowledge that everything GW had planned with PA (and all their releases, for that matter) were pushed back because of COVID and that they had no control over when this book was going to come out as the other two* missing PA books had to come out first. But still, it sucks that these rules seem to be something that just won't be around all that long.
*Or three, as many didn't get the Woof/Ork one before production shut down.
dogfender wrote: I’m sure the inquisition rules are still as half baked as they ever were. They need better relics (looking at you xanthite demon weapon..) better henchmen stats, and ability to bring their own vehicles not just car jack. Also need to bring back some of the other henchmen types that were shared with sisters. Also a standard troop choice, even if it’s just temp scion copy paste
Unfortunately it's not just a case of no model/no rule for the Inquisition. It comes down to the fact that the prevailing view on Inquisitors within the studio is that they shouldn't be an army, and thus they are relegated to a set of rule that are only one step above 'get you by' Indices so people can use their old minis. If anything it's a miracle they haven't been sent to "Legends".
It could change. For a great many years Genestealer Cults were specifically excluded from 40k because the man at the top didn't like them. He went, and instantly the Cults reappeared. Same could happen to the Inquisition.
The problem is that GW doesn't seem to like the Chamber Militant idea anymore and frankly I'm surprised they've not outright removed it from the fluff, rather than kept it as a throwaway line. Even during the Daemonhunter/Witchunter days, running pure Inquisition was pretty bare bones and all that's really been removed from their line is Inquisitorial Storm Troopers - which I do think should definitely come back. The expectation that you'd be bringing Grey Knights/Sisters to supplement those Inquisitorial units was pretty much the whole premise of the army and I loved it because it was a fully fleshed out army, whilst still keeping to the thematic that the Inquisitors are able to call in their best-buddies.
Grey Knights I think really need their Inquisition section back. In 5th I still disagreed with it, but at least they had the somewhat unique position of being the besist-best-of-the-Marines-who're-super-elite-and-stand-above-all-others, but in that time we've had Custodes (who lets be honest are basically just Marines even if they TECHNICALLY aren't) and outright superior Primaris. Grey Knights have been diluted down into just another Space Marine chapter. Making them the home of Inquisition units again would at least give them a stronger, separate identity as the Inquisitions blacker-than-black hit squad. Do the same with Deathwatch whilst we're at it, although their identity hasn't been completely devoured yet by virtue of already being standard marines cobbled together.
Sisters are a trickier one because they kept their Ecclesiarchy units, but hey, they might as well slap the Ordo Hereticus in there again because I mean, why not? But I do think Grey Knights should be the home of the Inquisition in crunch terms, even if they're not the Militant of the Hereticus/Xenos they still have them on speed dial.
The other issue is that any of this would necessitate a suite of new kits. GW like their mono-pose, minimal options stuff these days and that runs contrary to the inherent diversity of Acolytes.
I really don't care if Inquisition gets their own codex or if they can be fielded on their own as an army. Actually, I really don't even want them to be fieldable on their own--even as an Inquisition fan that doesn't make sense to me at the 40k game scale (at 2k points, anyway).
I just want solid rules for a small customizable retinue that you can include in any imperium army. Solid as in (A) actually functional, and (B) doesn't feel like punishment for taking it.
As it currently stands, we have (A) as of the WD article. Pariah looks to be going a long way towards (B) being achieved. We will have to see with the costing of Acolytes, as they are GROSSLY overcosted as-is.
Really all they need to do to make Inquisition a thing people would actually use is A) Make an Inquisitor and their retinue not count towards a detachment (which they may have done) or B) Give the Inquisition list access to Scions as troops, Scion Command Squads as Elite, and Access to Chimera, Taurox, and Valkyrie. Inquisition hit squad detachment made easy. While GW has steered away from the Chambers Militant in current fluff, they still have Inquisitorial Storm Troopers in pretty much everything Inquisitors are in.
That might be an option with this new book, but then you have to have two books to play a single detachment, which is beyond silly.
Also it would help if Acolytes were more flexible (options to take them with better WS or BS and with better armor) and not absurdly overpriced.
Everything we have heard so far indicates you can make a Tempetus Scion detachment and plug in your Inquisition units into it at impact to the detachments rules. I guess that is mission accomplished.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Have had a browse through the thread but could not see them. Have the prices for the miniature releases for Pariah been released by the retailers yet?
That Illuminator will be mine.
I did see the US prices on FB. 50 dollars translates to £30 for Szeras, which is more reasonable than I expected.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Have had a browse through the thread but could not see them. Have the prices for the miniature releases for Pariah been released by the retailers yet?
That Illuminator will be mine.
I did see the US prices on FB. 50 dollars translates to £30 for Szeras, which is more reasonable than I expected.
Wow yeah wtfGW? He’s only gonna be around $80-85AUD? That’s.. oddly cheap for current prices. I’m a happy chappy!
60 CAD dollars? Holy smokes, I get that it's a new plastic model and the characters have always been expensive, but from 25/30 CAD to double is kinda crazy considering he's not even the racial big honcho.
Grimskul wrote: 60 CAD dollars? Holy smokes, I get that it's a new plastic model and the characters have always been expensive, but from 25/30 CAD to double is kinda crazy considering he's not even the racial big honcho.
My original plan was to pick up book, stern/kyganil, Inquisitor, and maybe daemonifuge. Now that I actually look at the prices here, doubt that will happen in one go. I'll probably at least get the book, and then add the models later. Maybe I'll get stern at same time, but Inquisitor can wait if I even get her at all.
That’s about as big as a Daemon Prince isn’t it? If you put his base level with the Lychguard bases, they’ll be about that tall, maybe Guilliman height? I really hope he’s bellow 10 wounds!
Tiberius501 wrote: That’s about as big as a Daemon Prince isn’t it? If you put his base level with the Lychguard bases, they’ll be about that tall, maybe Guilliman height? I really hope he’s bellow 10 wounds!
Yeah, if he has 10 or more wounds, unless he has some other special rule he'll just be shot off the table first turn. I'm hoping he has 9 or less as well.
I'd have to double check my Daemon prince, but Szeras looks bigger overall.
I really wish GW would learn what parentheses are actually used for.
That aside, I couldn't help but notice this:
I really hope the model has an alternative melee weapon. Otherwise, the obvious question is 'why didn't you just double his Attacks characteristic, rather than giving his weapon a completely superfluous rule?'.
I can't help but suspect that the weapon was given this rule purely to make it look more interesting than it actually is.
bullyboy wrote: he is pretty underwhelming, 8 attacks is nice but S3 isn't scaring anyone. He's basically a 5+++ tax
100% depends on the point cost. Stern seems really good, although I didn't see an invuln mentioned. She has a primaris lieutenant-ish base statline, which surprised me.
I really wish GW would learn what parentheses are actually used for.
That aside, I couldn't help but notice this:
I really hope the model has an alternative melee weapon. Otherwise, the obvious question is 'why didn't you just double his Attacks characteristic, rather than giving his weapon a completely superfluous rule?'.
I can't help but suspect that the weapon was given this rule purely to make it look more interesting than it actually is.
he could opt to fight with just 4 attacks by not using the weapon (maybe he doesn't want to kill what he is locked up in combat with?)
vipoid wrote: That aside, I couldn't help but notice this:
I really hope the model has an alternative melee weapon. Otherwise, the obvious question is 'why didn't you just double his Attacks characteristic, rather than giving his weapon a completely superfluous rule?'.
I can't help but suspect that the weapon was given this rule purely to make it look more interesting than it actually is.
he could opt to fight with just 4 attacks by not using the weapon (maybe he doesn't want to kill what he is locked up in combat with?)
GW often make rules that fit the background rather than be thematic. Let's see:
* WS 2+,W 5 and L 9, like a Troop Master
* BS 3+ and A 4, like a Troupe Player
* The Outcast's Blades - -1 AP is better than a Harliquins Blade and doubles his attacks. Not shabby, for a special weapon. The only downside is S3 really
He looks, reasonable and thematic. As long as he isn't too expensive, he will be useful for slicing up chaff units or adding a few extra wounds to units Stern is bullying with her S5 AP-3 D2 attacks.
Quasistellar wrote: Stern seems really good, although I didn't see an invuln mentioned. She has a primaris lieutenant-ish base statline, which surprised me.
Without an invuln she doesn't even stack up to a mundane 54pt canoness - and that's before you consider <orders>, rites, traits, faith, and so forth.
She is the first sisters character that can deepstrike though. She seems unlikely to buff the sisters units and unlikely to make any charges from deepstrike, but perhaps some scope for use with seraphim/zephyrim?
vipoid wrote: That aside, I couldn't help but notice this:
I really hope the model has an alternative melee weapon. Otherwise, the obvious question is 'why didn't you just double his Attacks characteristic, rather than giving his weapon a completely superfluous rule?'.
I can't help but suspect that the weapon was given this rule purely to make it look more interesting than it actually is.
he could opt to fight with just 4 attacks by not using the weapon (maybe he doesn't want to kill what he is locked up in combat with?)
GW often make rules that fit the background rather than be thematic. Let's see:
* WS 2+,W 5 and L 9, like a Troop Master
* BS 3+ and A 4, like a Troupe Player
* The Outcast's Blades - -1 AP is better than a Harliquins Blade and doubles his attacks. Not shabby, for a special weapon. The only downside is S3 really
He looks, reasonable and thematic. As long as he isn't too expensive, he will be useful for slicing up chaff units or adding a few extra wounds to units Stern is bullying with her S5 AP-3 D2 attacks.
No they won't. Without being able to benefit from army special rules (and for stern Miracle Dice) they're crap. Their statlines are terrible. 4 attacks S5 AP -3 D2 doesn't constitutes 'bullying'. That's not even as good as a regular Canoness with blessed blade gets, and significantly worse than a Bloody Rose canoness can do. Also, elf guy only does 3 wounds to a unit of guardsman, that's not exactly 'slicing up chaff units'. The geminae superia do more damage in combat to most units and they're the worst unit in the game. His bodyguard rule is bunk as well, just letting stern benefit from Order Convictions would have given her more defense. Their pathetically slow movement doesn't help them much either.
You also have to keep in mind that the new Look Out Sir is a significant nerf to combat focused characters, especially ones that operate as 'lone wolves' like stern and elf guy do.
If they had been separate warscrolls, stern might have been taken in sisters list for her mortal wound shot and because she'd have adepta sororitas keyword. Elf guy is a noose around her neck unless they are both extraordinarily cheap. If Stern isn't also a regular psyker the both of them together I would say...70 points and they might be worth it, with most of that being tied up in Stern's mortal wound shooting. If stern IS a two cast psyker I'd say 90-100 for both, again with 80% of that cost being in Sterns ability to output mortal wounds.
I already wasn't planning on buying these once it was revealed it was a combined warscroll, but seeing just how anemic the rules actually are...yeesh.
Quasistellar wrote: Stern seems really good, although I didn't see an invuln mentioned. She has a primaris lieutenant-ish base statline, which surprised me.
Without an invuln she doesn't even stack up to a mundane 54pt canoness - and that's before you consider <orders>, rites, traits, faith, and so forth.
She is the first sisters character that can deepstrike though. She seems unlikely to buff the sisters units and unlikely to make any charges from deepstrike, but perhaps some scope for use with seraphim/zephyrim?
As I mentioned in my previous post, Stern and Elf guy don't have the statlines to be a real consideration for any kind of melee. A combined total of 2 dead intercessors between them isn't exactly impressive. The only reason you would consider them would be for Sterns mortal wound output, which isn't even guaranteed.
As for use with Seraphim or Zephyrim, they don't really have any synergy. Stern isn't really going to do much chaff clearing for a zephyrim charge, Seraphim will do way more damage to a single target with their inferno pistols on the drop. Sure, you can use seraphim/zephyrim for look out sir but...why? I'd rather have Stern take the hits for the Seraphim than the other way around.
Heresy to think they'd ever give a xenos model equal or better stats to an imperial when they're in the same 'unit'. GW couldn't have that...
Makes me wonder what GW thinks their audience are - are they actively seeking customers to buy xenos who love being treated as 3rd class customers? Deliberately mad eworse so their friends can have THE coolest stuff?
Reading the GW page, maybe it's just me, is the wording for Mysterious Saviour vaguely written with unclear antecedents? Who has the rules? Kyganil or Stern?
"Whilst this model remains within 3" of an Ephrael Stern model, roll one D6 each time that model would lose a wound; on a 5+ that wound is not lost."
What does "that model" refer to? Does it refer to "this model" or "Ephrael Stern"?
The later wording of the article as to "she shrugs off a third of all wounds" suggests "that model" is Stern. So Kyganil is the one responsible for the 5+++. Which means focus attacks on Kyganil to strip the 5+++ from Stern. What does Kyganil have aside from the 6+? A 4++?
I think Stern might work best as a missile to deliver her Super-Smite.
Include Cypher in the army to guarantee a super-smite on a roll of 7+ (she just has to be within 18" of any Chaos model, including friendly ones). Maybe a squad of GK Paladins to protect the entourage and provide some melee oomph.
No idea how effective it will be, but if your opponent is a lore nerd they'll be so apoplectic by your fluff that they'll lose focus on the game.
When they announced the title they did make it clear that "Pariah could be a lot of things". They had mentioned the Necron unit, the Psychic Blanks, Culexus, Eisenhorn's callsign, and then later the Harlequin with Stern.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If Pariah had involved Necron Pariahs we would have known about it ages ago. Claiming this is a bait and switch this late in the game is a bit much.
But the general concept of pariahs- psychic blanks- have existed in 40k for a long time. There was an obvious lore reason for the name that tied directly into the Psychic Awakening.
They did none of that. Its just another stupid place for the battle of the week. That is a bait and switch.
I’m a little disappointed that they didn’t talk about Szeras’ rules, but I guess we’ll see them in a week anyway. Just nurvous he’ll have over 9 wounds >.<
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m a little disappointed that they didn’t talk about Szeras’ rules, but I guess we’ll see them in a week anyway. Just nurvous he’ll have over 9 wounds >.<
You will be more disappointed once you see his rules.
yukishiro1 wrote: Half the Sisters of Battle PA is a Harlequin named character.
And yes, I can't wait to see the stats on the Inquisitor's Shuriken Catapult - we can all find out what the stats should have been in the first place if it wasn't a Xenos faction.
....not a harlequin named character if you can't take him in a harlequin army.
He's not really a harlequin though. He is basically a wood elf war dancer lol.
Seriously, I know it's because I have played forever, but I can't be the only veteran gamer to immediately think he was a war dancer
Sasori wrote: Not to mention at this point the cat's out of the bag that this PA doesn't have any content worth purchasing it for.
That was evident from phoenix rising.
Red Corsair wrote:He's not really a harlequin though. He is basically a wood elf war dancer lol.
Seriously, I know it's because I have played forever, but I can't be the only veteran gamer to immediately think he was a war dancer
40k is fantasy in space. Harlequins have always been the War Dancers in Space equivalents.
A bit goofier with their masks and diamond patterns, which loses out to tats and mohawks, but still. Dancing murder elves isn't exactly a big design space.
I'm starting Necron with 9th Edition and intentionally am playing them as a "fun first" project to break up some of my competitive leanings. Szeras is just such a cool model that I ordered it rules unseen.
For once I want to try playing GW's suggested way of letting models I love dictate what I get, instead of raw math-hammer. :-p
vipoid wrote: Should we make the same assumptions from that as when producers won't let critics see their movie in advance?
Considering they've been sending nothing to anyone across the globe the past few months, it's safe to assume that it's the same reason everything's been disrupted since March.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm starting Necron with 9th Edition and intentionally am playing them as a "fun first" project to break up some of my competitive leanings. Szeras is just such a cool model that I ordered it rules unseen.
For once I want to try playing GW's suggested way of letting models I love dictate what I get, instead of raw math-hammer. :-p
I wish I could exalt this more than once. People take competitive 40k way too damn seriously. I'm really looking forward to the Crusade rules.
I'd already be flabbergasted if they'd manage to bring a 3 Wraithknights detachment in line with a 3 Imperial/Chaos Knight detachment, never even mind non-Knight superheavies.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm starting Necron with 9th Edition and intentionally am playing them as a "fun first" project to break up some of my competitive leanings. Szeras is just such a cool model that I ordered it rules unseen.
For once I want to try playing GW's suggested way of letting models I love dictate what I get, instead of raw math-hammer. :-p
I wish I could exalt this more than once. People take competitive 40k way too damn seriously. I'm really looking forward to the Crusade rules.
I like doing both. There's a lot of fun to be had in taking a model you like but isn't exactly 'meta' and building a list around it to make it work. Mortifiers in SoB is a great exampe of that.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I'm starting Necron with 9th Edition and intentionally am playing them as a "fun first" project to break up some of my competitive leanings. Szeras is just such a cool model that I ordered it rules unseen.
For once I want to try playing GW's suggested way of letting models I love dictate what I get, instead of raw math-hammer. :-p
I wish I could exalt this more than once. People take competitive 40k way too damn seriously. I'm really looking forward to the Crusade rules.
I like doing both. There's a lot of fun to be had in taking a model you like but isn't exactly 'meta' and building a list around it to make it work. Mortifiers in SoB is a great exampe of that.
100% agree. Sometimes I love full tilt maximum meta, but my favorite way to play 40k and AoS is actually targetting "B+" lists. Competitive lists sure, but a notch or three off of perfection so both players need to make a concerted effort. Those are my most pure fun games.
Sasori wrote: Not to mention at this point the cat's out of the bag that this PA doesn't have any content worth purchasing it for.
Not with that attitude!
For me this was the last opportunity for a PA book that included content for at least one of my two most played armies (Deathwatch and Sisters). Since the only rules for sisters will come in the box for the model, I've managed to come out of the entire PA campaign with zero purchased books. A pity.
Id understand being grumpy about Szeras' rules, but considering board size changes and who knows what else coming for the Necrons in the not too distant future, he may secretly be a beast.
Sasori wrote: He's not great. While a big improvement on what he was before, It's pretty hard to justify at that points cost.
I'd rather keep my crypteks cheap in most cases.
Are we looking at different datasheets? Becuase for 130 points this guy is bargain basement cheap. He has better combat stats AND better army buffs than Celestine for 30 points cheaper.
Sasori wrote: He's not great. While a big improvement on what he was before, It's pretty hard to justify at that points cost.
I'd rather keep my crypteks cheap in most cases.
Are we looking at different datasheets? Becuase for 130 points this guy is bargain basement cheap. He has better combat stats AND better army buffs than Celestine for 30 points cheaper.
he meant cheap as in pure cheap, not just cheap for what he brings
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also except for that psyker thing (with limited utiliy), his abilities are pretty much the same as in 8th?
Granted he can augment after killing something in CC, but then whomever he wants to augment are likely still way back firing their guns, not losing their rapid fire shooting in CC with him.
He lost out on range for his big weapon, which means his AT gun will play a less important role as well.. an AT gun.
+2S, +2T, +2W
His weapon has lost 18" of range (From 36 to 18) and has gonne from assault 1 to assault d3.
His good meele profile has changed from F:U AP-2 1D to S+1 (7) ap-3 D2 and has gainned his old profile as extra limbs attack for dealing with chaff.
And the two habilities, the psyker and the killing stuff in meele. I mean, those two habilites are anecdotal but just for the buffs alone to his weapons and stat lines I would call it a fair trade for just 20 points.
Sasori wrote: He's not great. While a big improvement on what he was before, It's pretty hard to justify at that points cost.
I'd rather keep my crypteks cheap in most cases.
Are we looking at different datasheets? Becuase for 130 points this guy is bargain basement cheap. He has better combat stats AND better army buffs than Celestine for 30 points cheaper.
he meant cheap as in pure cheap, not just cheap for what he brings
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also except for that psyker thing (with limited utiliy), his abilities are pretty much the same as in 8th?
Granted he can augment after killing something in CC, but then whomever he wants to augment are likely still way back firing their guns, not losing their rapid fire shooting in CC with him.
He lost out on range for his big weapon, which means his AT gun will play a less important role as well.. an AT gun.
Yeah, exactly. He brings a fair amount of stuff, but that doesn't mean it's actually worth it.
As of right now, the primary reason to bring Crypteks are for their Technomancer Aura. Szeras adds a lot on top of that, but it's not necessarily worth the extra cost to bring him.
So no faith for Ephrael, but she would benefit from sacred rites and a few stratagems.
Amusingly she is also a valid target for the Divine Intervention stratagem.
I question whether a sisters player would get any value out of her. Even with rites she'd be looking at 9+ on 2d6 to change from deepstrike and she does little for you backfield that another HQ wouldn't do better. The smite is all she offers.
While Ephrael can't be your warlord the wording still seems to allow for her to take a warlord trait via "heroine in the making" strat. Could give her the one that lets you reroll charge dice and wounds on the charge
Bowie wrote: While Ephrael can't be your warlord the wording still seems to allow for her to take a warlord trait via "heroine in the making" strat. Could give her the one that lets you reroll charge dice and wounds on the charge
Two rolls at 9+ (with the correct rites) on 2d6 to charge from deepstrike with a strictly average buff-less canoness.
A.T. wrote: So no faith for Ephrael, but she would benefit from sacred rites and a few stratagems.
Amusingly she is also a valid target for the Divine Intervention stratagem.
I question whether a sisters player would get any value out of her. Even with rites she'd be looking at 9+ on 2d6 to change from deepstrike and she does little for you backfield that another HQ wouldn't do better. The smite is all she offers.
She's a randomly large pile of wounds with an additional saving throw buddy, and scoots around throwing Kamehamehas at people. Neither are entirely terrible at combat.
Really, they're Dragonball extras that want to mug small specialist units and be distracting.
The question is if no-risk auto-hit (but bad targeting) mortal wounds are worth 115 points?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: No Shield of Faith, she won't be able to deny those famous cast-on-a-6 smites! Sad! Or maybe irrelevant ^^.
I'll try her, she seems fun!
Shield of faith isn't the problem, but with actual faith she would have been viable for a deepstrike charge... albeit instead of a zephrym squad.
Her deepstrike and her smite are the two things she has going for her, at least in a sisters army. The rest is available for half the cost on a regular HQ... at least until the 9e points lists come out.
Looks like you can still use the following strats on her:
Moment of Grace,
Heroine in the Making (likey to be faqed away)
Divine Intervention
Holy Rage
Suffer not the Witch
Purity of Faith
Judgement of the Faithful
IanVanCheese wrote: Yeah I think he has some use as a counter charger. He hangs out with your troops, buffs them and helps to swat anything that gets too close.
Probably not going to see play on the top tables (depending on how 9th codex shakes out), but he's good enough for normal/semi comp play.
Why the hell do we care about him "not going to see play on the top tables"?
How many people here on Dakka do you think even see top tables? This trash outlook on games needs to stop.
IanVanCheese wrote: Yeah I think he has some use as a counter charger. He hangs out with your troops, buffs them and helps to swat anything that gets too close.
Probably not going to see play on the top tables (depending on how 9th codex shakes out), but he's good enough for normal/semi comp play.
Why the hell do we care about him "not going to see play on the top tables"?
How many people here on Dakka do you think even see top tables? This trash outlook on games needs to stop.
the_scotsman wrote: Motley? Sylandri? who's the first harlequin model we get after their plastic relaunch in early 7th, 4-5 years ago?
Oh, it's "harlequin who is not actually a harlequin, who you can't field in a harlequin army."
Cool, cool, coolcoolcool.
I'm relieved he has a kiss after seeing how pretty underwhelming his blades are. I saw the kiss on the model's hip and actually thought it was an ornate laspistol which would have been cool (as they haven't had Las pistols since 2nd ed). A kiss makes him far more flexible, but I would have liked and Eldar profile for a laspistol.
As it is, it seems he's effectively a grenadier, shooting people at 6"...
Yeah it is a running joke by now how every piece of Xenos technology automatically becomes much better if a human touches it. Too bad Kyrganil couldn't cut off his ears and become human, if he did his Harlequin's Kiss would suddenly gain a point of strength, two points of AP, and flat 3 damage.
Galas wrote: Human potential, an estaple of nearly all RPG system! Warcraft loves to do it.
Best warriors? Orcs. Best warrior? An human!
Best wizards? Elves. Best wizard? An human!
Best priests? Draenei. Best priest? An human!
etc, etc...
To be fair, at least the Alliance loses more often than not in the lore. Fat load of good that Human Potential does when you're as Stupid Good as they come.
Absolutely valid complaint. The issue is caused by a lot of the Eldar tech being nerfed hard for the 3rd edition and mostly being left unaltered ever since.
Yeah. As someone that has read and studied warcraft's lore more than any one mentally sane or with respect for his/her own time should, it was never good, at best mediocre, but it has passed the point of being worth a damm, many years ago.
It's pretty depressing. How are you supposed to encourage someone to play an army when they can expect to see GW simply steal it's abilities and give them to another colour of space marine?
'why should I want to play Eldar when I just have to wait for the psychic master chapter that buffs everyone?'
They aren't even hiding it. It's just blatantly imperium is the best, technological stagnation means better than everyone else. Xenos armies can't hope to be as good - but did we tell you how advanced and fast the Eldar are? More advanced and fast than the imperium. The imperium is still more advanced though because they're the best...
A.T. wrote: So no faith for Ephrael, but she would benefit from sacred rites and a few stratagems.
Amusingly she is also a valid target for the Divine Intervention stratagem.
I question whether a sisters player would get any value out of her. Even with rites she'd be looking at 9+ on 2d6 to change from deepstrike and she does little for you backfield that another HQ wouldn't do better. The smite is all she offers.
She's a randomly large pile of wounds with an additional saving throw buddy, and scoots around throwing Kamehamehas at people. Neither are entirely terrible at combat.
Really, they're Dragonball extras that want to mug small specialist units and be distracting.
The question is if no-risk auto-hit (but bad targeting) mortal wounds are worth 115 points?
The answer is no. Both of them together are about 75pts worth of stats. As it stands you can get more, and more reliable, damage out of a unit of seraphim for 88 points.
I really like Stern and Kyganil. I was worried they'd be crazy expensive but they're in that sweet spot for me. I am happy she still has the AS keyword so some nice stratagems can be used on her.
ShaneMarsh wrote: I really like Stern and Kyganil. I was worried they'd be crazy expensive but they're in that sweet spot for me. I am happy she still has the AS keyword so some nice stratagems can be used on her.
It irritates me that we can't take her solo. Solo she'd be about 70-75 points which would be a much easier sell for her mortal wound shot. But no, simp elf dude has to constantly follow her around trying to sniff her feet.
Someone posted this on one of their recent FB posts and they responded.
"Breaking: Creators of one of the 4 Chaos Gods are jealous of Mankind"
I was stumped for a moment.
Yes an attempt at humour that just comes off as mocking disinterest. Clearly GW does not consider their customers equal despite never advertising that fact.
It's plain to me that unless you buy a space marine you're merely tolerated.
ShaneMarsh wrote: I really like Stern and Kyganil. I was worried they'd be crazy expensive but they're in that sweet spot for me. I am happy she still has the AS keyword so some nice stratagems can be used on her.
It irritates me that we can't take her solo. Solo she'd be about 70-75 points which would be a much easier sell for her mortal wound shot. But no, simp elf dude has to constantly follow her around trying to sniff her feet.
He's a 5+++ and extra wounds basically, all on top of about the same combat potential. If anything, there's no point in taking Stern by herself.
On Szeras bear in mind as a Cryptek you can take cryptothralls to create a nice little 3 model (minimum, codex necrons might allow more thralls per unit) pseudo unit with a bucket load of melee attacks. The thralls will get 4+ RP rolls, living metal and their 3+ save as well as the buffs to their attacks, weapon skill and ballistic skill and Szeras gets the benefit of being immune to shooting attacks while the thralls live.
Based on the latest points leaks... I wouldn't put too much faith in the points costs for the characters in this book....
PA datasheet has Stern and the Harlie at 115 points, but, the 9th leaks in the big thread now has them at 125. The Talons of the Emperor characters are also increasing so you can almost certainly guarantee that Szeras is also increasing.
p5freak wrote: But GW said PA books were written with 9th in mind
Eh point cost is one thing that would have to be different. Either 8th ed book has overpriced 8th ed costs or 9th has underpriced costs. You cannot have 1 cost that works for both.
Though it was marketing speech but that's shown in rules. Not points which is either incorrect or you have to errata somewhere. Either book has 8th ed points and errata for 9(at which point you need 2 sources for points in 9th) or 9th in book and 8th ed points in errata
p5freak wrote: But GW said PA books were written with 9th in mind
I don't think they did. You have a quote?
I assumed that's the usual internet-garbage.
They did say it in the FAQ (and on the stream) :
What about the Psychic Awakening books?
Again – these all still work! The rules in these supplements
were written with the new edition in mind, so you can
continue to use the rules in them for your games.
p5freak wrote: But GW said PA books were written with 9th in mind
I don't think they did. You have a quote?
I assumed that's the usual internet-garbage.
They did say it in the FAQ (and on the stream) :
What about the Psychic Awakening books?
Again – these all still work! The rules in these supplements
were written with the new edition in mind, so you can
continue to use the rules in them for your games.
Yeah its just the rules will need to be faqed and points will change
TheGuest wrote: They did say it in the FAQ (and on the stream) :
What about the Psychic Awakening books? Again – these all still work! The rules in these supplements were written with the new edition in mind, so you can continue to use the rules in them for your games.
Well of course they're going to say that. There was a world-wide pandemic that delayed the release of 3 of them (4 of them in some areas) and they want people to still buy them. If telling people the books also made toast in the morning would'a shifted more units they'd've said that as well!
I like Stern and Kyganil but unless I can use them to fill a hq slot then I have no interest in using them. Is it so much to ask that I don't need to take 3 of the same unit for my sisters army?
I will admit I have not bought a single PA book after seeing what was included in Phoenix Rising. Borrowed a friend's Engine War to see if it would be worth it, but the fluff just was meh at best. The stories posted on WarCom were mostly better.
pm713 wrote: I like Stern and Kyganil but unless I can use them to fill a hq slot then I have no interest in using them. Is it so much to ask that I don't need to take 3 of the same unit for my sisters army?
p5freak wrote: But GW said PA books were written with 9th in mind
I don't think they did. You have a quote?
I assumed that's the usual internet-garbage.
They did say it in the FAQ (and on the stream) :
What about the Psychic Awakening books?
Again – these all still work! The rules in these supplements
were written with the new edition in mind, so you can
continue to use the rules in them for your games.
Yeah its just the rules will need to be faqed and points will change
Its not quite a lie.....
I do not see how that is an indication they were not written with 9th in mind.
pm713 wrote: Is it so much to ask that I don't need to take 3 of the same unit for my sisters army?
Let me look at the Troop section.
Why, yes, apparently it is indeed too much to ask.
What other faction has literally just one troop choice? Harlequin, maybe Custodes and Grey Knights?
pm713 wrote: Is it so much to ask that I don't need to take 3 of the same unit for my sisters army?
Let me look at the Troop section.
Why, yes, apparently it is indeed too much to ask.
What other faction has literally just one troop choice? Harlequin, maybe Custodes and Grey Knights?
Grey Knights have two and Custodes have two because FW provided Sags for them. Harlequins need mimes back.
pm713 wrote: Is it so much to ask that I don't need to take 3 of the same unit for my sisters army?
Let me look at the Troop section.
Why, yes, apparently it is indeed too much to ask.
What other faction has literally just one troop choice? Harlequin, maybe Custodes and Grey Knights?
Grey Knights have two and Custodes have two because FW provided Sags for them. Harlequins need mimes back.
They need great harlequins and have done since day one. GW are just lazy it seems.
Also I'm totally for getting rid of some of the troops for Marines. Literally nobody wanted Incursors and Assault Intercessors can literally just be part of the Intercessor profile with the addition of a couple of lines.
What are mimes? Memes?
Also why are Sisters still doomed to be the one troop choice army?
SoB squads are really good for basic troop choice. Sure they can't assault worth a crap but are very versatile. Sisters have only ever had one Troop unit. I'm not upset by that trend continuing.
...GW does not consider their customers equal despite never advertising that fact.
It's plain to me that unless you buy a space marine you're merely tolerated.
The wallowing in victimhood seen round here sometimes verges on parody. You aren't being oppressed. The favour shown to certain factions at different times isn't 'toxic' or 'problematic'. Get a grip man.
jivardi wrote: SoB squads are really good for basic troop choice.
I'm not saying they are bad. I'm saying having only one choice in the one battlefield role that you HAVE to own multiple of, and that represent the most numerous part of your faction, is sad. Bring back Frateris Militia or something.
Mimics who combined their masks and their holofields and mastery of the webway to pretend to be anyone, including enemy troops, and appear nearly anywhere, so that they could infiltrate bases, battlefields etc. Also to appear on Craftworlds days or weeks ahead of the main Troupe to put up the Eldar equivalent of “coming attraction” posters without anyone knowing exactly when or how they arrived.
Master Mimes were the next best thing to invisible if they wanted to be and enjoyed playing “pranks” like leaving trip-wire grenade booby-traps inside the only door to a sealed underground bunker, or a harlequin mask locked in a mocking grin on the pillow next to a sleeping planetary governor just before the Ordo Xenos bust down the door and start asking awkward questions about alien artefact smuggling.
There was even a special character who had developed the talent to the point of basically operating under a combination of Scooby Doo and Road Runner chase scene rules.
What are mimes? Memes?
Also why are Sisters still doomed to be the one troop choice army?
I assume they are afraid of what happened with chaos marines would happen with SoB if they gave us novitiates and Frateris Militia, also GW is lazy. still no jump cannoness, the 2 new "units" are just unit varients of existing units. and some special characters...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Apparently they were a troop choice YEARS ago. Someone here said they did an infiltration equivalent.
Mimes are an option in kill teams.
They weren't in Gav Thorpe's 3e harlequin codex or any of the main 2nd ed books or 3e supplements that i'm aware of, possibly an obscure journal ruleset?
Mr_Rose wrote: Mimics who combined their masks and their holofields and mastery of the webway to pretend to be anyone, including enemy troops, and appear nearly anywhere, so that they could infiltrate bases, battlefields etc. Also to appear on Craftworlds days or weeks ahead of the main Troupe to put up the Eldar equivalent of “coming attraction” posters without anyone knowing exactly when or how they arrived.
Master Mimes were the next best thing to invisible if they wanted to be and enjoyed playing “pranks” like leaving trip-wire grenade booby-traps inside the only door to a sealed underground bunker, or a harlequin mask locked in a mocking grin on the pillow next to a sleeping planetary governor just before the Ordo Xenos bust down the door and start asking awkward questions about alien artefact smuggling.
There was even a special character who had developed the talent to the point of basically operating under a combination of Scooby Doo and Road Runner chase scene rules.
Sounds pretty cool.
warmaster21 wrote: I assume they are afraid of what happened with chaos marines would happen with SoB if they gave us novitiates and Frateris Militia
I think "They are lazy" is closer to the truth. I don't think GW really minds what happened to CSM.
...GW does not consider their customers equal despite never advertising that fact.
It's plain to me that unless you buy a space marine you're merely tolerated.
The wallowing in victimhood seen round here sometimes verges on parody. You aren't being oppressed. The favour shown to certain factions at different times isn't 'toxic' or 'problematic'. Get a grip man.
Never claimed to be a victim and your assertion as such is insulting to people who have actually been victimised. Never claimed I was oppressed.
What I said in what you QUOTED is that they don't treat customers equally - they sell a game with factions that are advertised as equal choices yet they do not provide ongoing development or updates for all those factions on anything like an equal basis. This creates a poor balance dynamic in The game and skews players heavily towards factions that actually get new material and support. That is not equal treatment of customers.
I said non Marine players are tolerated - if GW could switch to just marine on marine they would in an instant. But they understand they need at least some non marine armies so marine players have something else to fight.
And because marines are their preferred product line, they've built the game mechanics around them so they have trouble balancing good army lists that aren't MEQ. Necrons are MEQ and thus easy mode in development.
None of this is anything other than 25 years of observing GWs decision making, it's investment preferences and looking at how few non-marine armies there are, how old their miniatures are and how many units marines have now have. How much money they invested in fiction for imperial factions alone shows this.
Describing this as unequal treatment of customers and that they merely tolerate non marine players is pretty mild. If I had bought a car from a manufacturer who advertised it as just add good as all their others only to find out later that it had no after sales support, parts or anything I'd be furious because I wouldn't have bought it had I know this and I would consider it misleading advertising. Just because these are plastic toys doesn't mean the company isn't required to be forthright with its customers.
pm713 wrote: Is it so much to ask that I don't need to take 3 of the same unit for my sisters army?
Let me look at the Troop section.
Why, yes, apparently it is indeed too much to ask.
What other faction has literally just one troop choice? Harlequin, maybe Custodes and Grey Knights?
If you play pure Militarum Tempestus, then Militarum Tempestus.
...GW does not consider their customers equal despite never advertising that fact.
It's plain to me that unless you buy a space marine you're merely tolerated.
The wallowing in victimhood seen round here sometimes verges on parody. You aren't being oppressed. The favour shown to certain factions at different times isn't 'toxic' or 'problematic'. Get a grip man.
The favouritism is problematic. It fosters hostility between the haves and have nots, makes it needlessly harder to play as the have not (look at Dark Eldar) and just makes it easier to feel like you have no value in the fanbase. Toxic is a bit much though.
...GW does not consider their customers equal despite never advertising that fact.
It's plain to me that unless you buy a space marine you're merely tolerated.
The wallowing in victimhood seen round here sometimes verges on parody. You aren't being oppressed. The favour shown to certain factions at different times isn't 'toxic' or 'problematic'. Get a grip man.
The favouritism is problematic. It fosters hostility between the haves and have nots, makes it needlessly harder to play as the have not (look at Dark Eldar) and just makes it easier to feel like you have no value in the fanbase. Toxic is a bit much though.
Iv had terrible luck chosing factions from games workshop. Fantasy: Brettonia and tomb kings, gone. 40k. Dark eldar and sisters of battle, at least they got love now but i had to stick with a 2.5E codex all the way to 5th edition for both of them. and then from 5th to 8th edition with pretty much the same codex.
Hell back in the day for my Dark Elves in fantasy you could buy a unit of cold one knights... a box of 4 half plastic half metal... (an illegal unit since minimum unit size was 5) for the SAME cost as a 5 man unit of warriors of chaos knights (all metal, 5 models, banner bearer) was like 50% more total metal, an extra model, same cost... they eventually corrected that but it was fething ridiculous.
...GW does not consider their customers equal despite never advertising that fact.
It's plain to me that unless you buy a space marine you're merely tolerated.
The wallowing in victimhood seen round here sometimes verges on parody. You aren't being oppressed. The favour shown to certain factions at different times isn't 'toxic' or 'problematic'. Get a grip man.
The favouritism is problematic. It fosters hostility between the haves and have nots, makes it needlessly harder to play as the have not (look at Dark Eldar) and just makes it easier to feel like you have no value in the fanbase. Toxic is a bit much though.
Iv had terrible luck chosing factions from games workshop. Fantasy: Brettonia and tomb kings, gone. 40k. Dark eldar and sisters of battle, at least they got love now but i had to stick with a 2.5E codex all the way to 5th edition for both of them. and then from 5th to 8th edition with pretty much the same codex.
Hell back in the day for my Dark Elves in fantasy you could buy a unit of cold one knights... a box of 4 half plastic half metal... (an illegal unit since minimum unit size was 5) for the SAME cost as a 5 man unit of warriors of chaos knights (all metal, 5 models, banner bearer) was like 50% more total metal, an extra model, same cost... they eventually corrected that but it was fething ridiculous.
Oh that's rough. I remember I was going to start Bretonnia but heard they were getting redone in End Times so thought I'd wait until that was done to drop the money on starting. Turns out that was the smart move. The End Times brought a lot of dissapointment.
yukishiro1 wrote: The factions with only one troop choice have 1 choice that is always good.
Sorry, I don't believe that this is true. Not with the way GW writes their books.
Can't comment for 8th, but Sisters were good in the previous editions as troops, mostly hampered by all the other choices being pretty bad. For 8th itself? Scions are gold, real gold. Custodes are just kinda average.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: but Sisters were good in the previous editions as troops, mostly hampered by all the other choices being pretty bad.
Dominions and Retributors have always been Sisters+. They can do what Sisters of Battle squads can do, but can also do more by taking more special/heavy weapons.
Szeras is an incredible miniature! He is insanely fiddly to build, there’s some crazy small and thin parts that I nearly broke multiple times so my main advise to building him would be to be really damn careful.
But yeah, he’s brilliant.
According to goonhammer, the PR spin about being able to take all inquisition units in non-inquisition detachments turned out to be wrong, as usual. It's only the Inquisitor HQs you can do that with, just as before. So the rest of the army is once again completely useless, as you'd have to be mental to pay 3CP under the 9th edition system to take some monkeys. What a waste, and what a bait and switch to get people's hopes up only to dash them for no reason. Really pretty bummed right now.
This was the PR:
All Inquisition forces can be added into an Imperium Detachment without other units losing their Detachment abilities. So now is the perfect time to get Draxus to lead your Space Marines/Astra Militarum/Adeptus Mechanicus/Adepta Sororitas (delete as appropriate) army.
I can confirm goonhammer is right, this PR spin is false advertising. The rule is exactly the same as before, it only applies to the Inquisitors. Really lame.
There are no changes whatsoever to the existing inquisition rules - all the datasheets are exactly the same, points costs exactly the same, EXCEPT that the Jokaero weapons weirdly became free, so they went from 22 to 18 points. Not that it matters since nobody will ever take an Inquisition detachment since it costs 3CP. Some psychic power and stratagems have been renamed, but they have exactly the same rules text as before. Then there's the two additional strats - deep strike and +1 psychic power/deny - that they already previewed.
That's literally it. Everything the same except the 4ppm cut for Jokaeros and the two stratagems.
yukishiro1 wrote: According to goonhammer, the PR spin about being able to take all inquisition units in non-inquisition detachments turned out to be wrong, as usual. It's only the Inquisitor HQs you can do that with, just as before. So the rest of the army is once again completely useless, as you'd have to be mental to pay 3CP under the 9th edition system to take some monkeys. What a waste, and what a bait and switch to get people's hopes up only to dash them for no reason. Really pretty bummed right now.
This was the PR:
All Inquisition forces can be added into an Imperium Detachment without other units losing their Detachment abilities. So now is the perfect time to get Draxus to lead your Space Marines/Astra Militarum/Adeptus Mechanicus/Adepta Sororitas (delete as appropriate) army.
Not only that, but the rule was reworked such that you can't have a hanger-on Assassin & Inquisitor in the same detachment. (Inquisitors now have the Agents of the Imperium keyword, and the rule is the same as it is for Assassins)
It's probably a good desicion in that it limits Imperial design space, but it's still disappointing as now the already struggling Inquisition choices directly compete against Assassins. Between a Hereticus Inqusitor that you need to pay CP on to make decent or an Assassin, its basically not even a competetion.
I am writing an email to GW now protesting their false advertising here in the rules preview, it is either conscious misrepresentation or massive incompetence, and either way I'm sure it has misled some people into buying a book (or models - they do still sell Jokaeros) they wouldn't otherwise have bought.
I encourage anyone else interested to do the same, this is really, really poor.
yukishiro1 wrote: I am writing an email to GW now protesting their false advertising here in the rules preview, it is either conscious misrepresentation or massive incompetence, and either way I'm sure it has misled some people into buying a book (or models - they do still sell Jokaeros) they wouldn't otherwise have bought.
I'm sure whoever wrote it thought that that's what the rule meant. As usual, GW don't understand their own game.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Not only that, but the rule was reworked such that you can't have a hanger-on Assassin & Inquisitor in the same detachment. (Inquisitors now have the Agents of the Imperium keyword, and the rule is the same as it is for Assassins)
It's probably a good desicion in that it limits Imperial design space, but it's still disappointing as now the already struggling Inquisition choices directly compete against Assassins. Between a Hereticus Inqusitor that you need to pay CP on to make decent or an Assassin, its basically not even a competetion.
wait really? i cant run my assassin + inquisitor anymore in my sob army? that is dumb. 1 more reason to skip 9th all together. on the bright side im glad i didnt get conned into buying that book, i refused to buy any book after the debacle of the DE psychic awakening book.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Not only that, but the rule was reworked such that you can't have a hanger-on Assassin & Inquisitor in the same detachment. (Inquisitors now have the Agents of the Imperium keyword, and the rule is the same as it is for Assassins)
It's probably a good desicion in that it limits Imperial design space, but it's still disappointing as now the already struggling Inquisition choices directly compete against Assassins. Between a Hereticus Inqusitor that you need to pay CP on to make decent or an Assassin, its basically not even a competetion.
wait really? i cant run my assassin + inquisitor anymore in my sob army? that is dumb. 1 more reason to skip 9th all together. on the bright side im glad i didnt get conned into buying that book, i refused to buy any book after the debacle of the DE psychic awakening book.
You can, but only if you have two detachments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's what I drafted up and sent to GW, if anyone wants to use it as a template for their own email. Not that I have any great hopes they'll care, but at the very least they ought to apologize for the false information and modify the rules preview, which is still up, and still inaccurate.
As stated there:
"All Inquisition forces can be added into an Imperium Detachment without other units losing their Detachment abilities. "
However, the actual Psychic Awakening book contains no such rule. Instead, the ability to include a unit in an Imperium detachment is limited to Inquisitors, not to "all Inquisition forces" as stated in your rule preview. This is not remotely the same thing, and makes fielding the other units in the codex - Jokaeros, Acolytes, Daemonhosts - nearly impossible in 9th edition, as you would be required to take a separate vanguard detachment and pay 3CP for it, which is simply not realistic in the new rules set.
I realize the community that plays inquisition is very small, but your rules preview got our hopes up tremendously with the promise that we would be able to field these units in other Imperium detachments, only for the PR copy to turn out to have been false advertising. I assume this misrepresentation was unintentional, but it is still incredibly disappointing, and I'm sure that at least some number of individuals made purchases in reliance of this false information.
In future, please, please spend a bit more effort to be sure that the rules previews you are presenting are accurate, particularly when they are part of PR copy designed to induce people to spend money on your products.
Additionally, I would ask you to reconsider the existing rules, and consider including in the day-1 Errata for 9th edition some rule to either make an Inquisition detachment free, or to allow all units to be taken in Imperium detachments as your PR copy claimed was possible. In other words, please consider rectifying the false advertising by making it accurate.
Thank you for your consideration, and I hope to receive some acknowledgement that the false advertising in the rules preview was not up to GW's standards of professionalism.
Sincerely,
Well I have to say I'm pretty gutted about that. The only way I could see a decent way of running my inquisition force was in a guard detachment so I could also take some scions and transports.
I think anyone taking an inquisition force is taking it for fluff reasons but it's still hard to have to completely gimp yourself of CP etc
Abaddon303 wrote: Well I have to say I'm pretty gutted about that. The only way I could see a decent way of running my inquisition force was in a guard detachment so I could also take some scions and transports.
I think anyone taking an inquisition force is taking it for fluff reasons but it's still hard to have to completely gimp yourself of CP etc
Iv pretty much been running an inquisitor + retinue + 1 assassin since witch hunter days of SoB, which has since dropped to just the inquisitor and 1 assassin over time...
I was kind of hoping sub factions would get some special rule that would allow you to take their detachment without costing CP as there are practically 0 ways in which you can make a force with sub factions in 9th without seriously gimping yourself. by sub factions i mean things like Sisters of silence, inquisitors, assassins, etc etc
Agreed.
Thing is there is literally nothing in the inquisition roster that is even competitive let alone OP of it was allowed in an Imperium detachment.
Especially if they don't fill detachment slots.
I appreciate GW have to be careful about being too unrestrictive otherwise it just increases potential for unseen combinations but seriously it's a couple of really low tier units...
Thing is, I'd even rather overpay in points to take these units but if you want to take a mix of interesting keywords, losing all those CP just hurts too much.
Abaddon303 wrote: Well I have to say I'm pretty gutted about that. The only way I could see a decent way of running my inquisition force was in a guard detachment so I could also take some scions and transports.
I think anyone taking an inquisition force is taking it for fluff reasons but it's still hard to have to completely gimp yourself of CP etc
Iv pretty much been running an inquisitor + retinue + 1 assassin since witch hunter days of SoB, which has since dropped to just the inquisitor and 1 assassin over time...
I was kind of hoping sub factions would get some special rule that would allow you to take their detachment without costing CP as there are practically 0 ways in which you can make a force with sub factions in 9th without seriously gimping yourself. by sub factions i mean things like Sisters of silence, inquisitors, assassins, etc etc
It's really not all doom and gloom.
Get a battalion with your warlord, that is free
Add your assassin to this detachment.
Get a vanguard led by an inquisitor by paying the 3CP.
You still start the game with 9CP, will gain a CP each turn, and can probably add a relic to refund CP.
Really, although the PR was false, it is not the end of the world and is perfectly viable.
edit; I don't have War of the Spider so not sure if adding an assassin costs CP, I'm sure someone will correct me if that is the case.
It is not remotely viable to pay 3CP for a couple monkeys (the only unit that isn't terrible, unless maybe you abuse psychic veil to take a unit of plasma acolytes that can't be shot). The units weren't worth taking even when it didn't cost you CP to do so; the idea that they're viable with a 3CP cost is silly.
More importantly, your 3CP tax detachment also breaks doctirnes, rites, etc. Ad-mech and guard are the only factions that can take them without totally gimping their army. Like if you wanted to take them with sisters, you'd be giving up sacred rights AND paying 3CP...for a couple monkeys. Even worse for marines, obviously.
And in addition, if you wanted to take inquisition with any other Imperium stuff that you'd associate with inquisition like crusaders, death cult assassin's, stormtroopers, preachers etc or a transport that isn't a Landraider you also need a separate ministorum or guard detachment. That's 6CP down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best way I can see of making an auxiliary inquisition force work is taking a guard patrol with stormtroopers, crusaders, preacher etc along with a chimera, plugging the inquisitor into that detachment then taking a monkey or acolytes in an aux detachment for a CP. 3CP still really limiting options tho
Yeah it just doesn't work, inquisition are an even bigger joke in 9th than in 8th thanks to a PA book that does absolutely nothing except not deliver on the false advertising they put out to get you to buy it. Really poor from GW.
Yeah, that's pretty crappy then. An inquisitor should be able to bring his retinue without it disrupting doctrines (I'm not fussed with CP as you still have plenty after a 3 CP drop). Failing that, GW should have fleshed the detachment out more adding Inquisitorial stormtroopers, expanding the retinue etc. The book is on the way for me mainly as i wanted Stern and the new inquisitor, plus just to wrap the series up, but the list seems disappointing.
Yeh but this is just it, of happily take a 3CP hit to take what I consider as an inquisition force.
But the fact I also have to take a militarum detachment just to access stuff like transports
Abaddon303 wrote: Well I have to say I'm pretty gutted about that. The only way I could see a decent way of running my inquisition force was in a guard detachment so I could also take some scions and transports.
I think anyone taking an inquisition force is taking it for fluff reasons but it's still hard to have to completely gimp yourself of CP etc
Iv pretty much been running an inquisitor + retinue + 1 assassin since witch hunter days of SoB, which has since dropped to just the inquisitor and 1 assassin over time...
I was kind of hoping sub factions would get some special rule that would allow you to take their detachment without costing CP as there are practically 0 ways in which you can make a force with sub factions in 9th without seriously gimping yourself. by sub factions i mean things like Sisters of silence, inquisitors, assassins, etc etc
It's really not all doom and gloom.
Get a battalion with your warlord, that is free
Add your assassin to this detachment.
Get a vanguard led by an inquisitor by paying the 3CP.
You still start the game with 9CP, will gain a CP each turn, and can probably add a relic to refund CP.
Really, although the PR was false, it is not the end of the world and is perfectly viable.
edit; I don't have War of the Spider so not sure if adding an assassin costs CP, I'm sure someone will correct me if that is the case.
Don't worry, Assassins don't cost any CP just to add them. You only spend CP before the game on them if you want to swap the Assassin in your list with a different one.
Are they GW owned or something? I don't know their reputation but some random website makes a claim GW lied about certain units and everyone believing them.
Seems far fetched. Again, never heard of them/him/her before this morning so I'm happy to be informed as to how credible they are.
Matt.Kingsley wrote:Not only that, but the rule was reworked such that you can't have a hanger-on Assassin & Inquisitor in the same detachment. (Inquisitors now have the Agents of the Imperium keyword, and the rule is the same as it is for Assassins)
It's probably a good desicion in that it limits Imperial design space, but it's still disappointing as now the already struggling Inquisition choices directly compete against Assassins. Between a Hereticus Inqusitor that you need to pay CP on to make decent or an Assassin, its basically not even a competetion.
This is absolutely terrible. I was going to pick up this book once I was able to see some reviews (as I was afraid of something like this for Inquisition) because it made it sound like I would be able to take a Guard detachment with Stormtroopers/Crusaders/Etc. with an Inquisitor and their retinue and then take a Sisters detachment and have a full Ordo Hereticus Army in two detachments. NOT!
I don't know why GW even tries with the Inquisition any more, it's more insulting than anything at this point. Just squat them out of 40k. Or get someone to write a quick free rules PDF. No one should pay for this garbage.
jivardi wrote:I just visited Goonhammer site.
Are they GW owned or something? I don't know their reputation but some random website makes a claim GW lied about certain units and everyone believing them.
Seems far fetched. Again, never heard of them/him/her before this morning so I'm happy to be informed as to how credible they are.
This has to be a troll post?
Goonhammer is amongst the first to put out reviews for nearly every product GW puts out. Ranging from Aeronautica Imperialis all the way to a big new Space Marine book. Their reviews are some of the most in-depth and fair you can find on the web.
Honestly I would trust what they said about a GW product over what GW says about a GW product. They seem to understand GW's games a lot better than GW does.
Sabotage! wrote: Honestly I would trust what they said about a GW product over what GW says about a GW product. They seem to understand GW's games a lot better than GW does.
I second this. Goonhammer is one of the best resources for GW games right now.
You don't have to trust them. There's video reviews up on youtube right now that turn the pages of the book. Just pause it on the page in question and read it yourself if you don't want to believe that GW done goofed again. It's right there in black and white.
I doubt they were deliberately lying in their rules preview - why would they, it'd just come back to bite them in the butt the way this has - but it's yet another example of GW not being professional with their PR releases designed to try to get you to buy their products.
do agree...
Even more ironic that the 
