AduroT wrote: Tactical rocks do kind of annoy me. Captain Morgan poses are a dime a dozen. The ones I really hate are when the rock is specific scenery, like all the building rubble on the Indomitus Necrons. Don’t do that! It doesn’t match my basing. The worst offenders have to be the Eliminators kit though. Weird flat debris stuff they’re kneeling on. Not like cool poses, just kneeling. And it’s hard to remove simply because it’s not level, their feet and knees are all at weird angles not parallel with their bases. It was stupid and annoying.
I've always wondered if this kind of thing was in response to feedback about the special bits that would come with the starter sets for the editions to plug up the holes in the bases.
AduroT wrote: Tactical rocks do kind of annoy me. Captain Morgan poses are a dime a dozen. The ones I really hate are when the rock is specific scenery, like all the building rubble on the Indomitus Necrons. Don’t do that! It doesn’t match my basing. The worst offenders have to be the Eliminators kit though. Weird flat debris stuff they’re kneeling on. Not like cool poses, just kneeling. And it’s hard to remove simply because it’s not level, their feet and knees are all at weird angles not parallel with their bases. It was stupid and annoying.
Not to mention their poses are really terrible for actually sniping anyone.
On New Year’s Day, we’ll also have a sneaky peek at some of the incredible new models that are coming out in 2021. Make sure that you join us to see some of the miniatures that will be up for next year’s Model of the Year vote.
Phew. Maybe the advent calender will have been for a reason. At the very least, I imagine we'll see the whole seraphon underworld band and maybe the new zombies
GaroRobe wrote: Phew. Maybe the advent calender will have been for a reason. At the very least, I imagine we'll see the whole seraphon underworld band and maybe the new zombies
The word 'sneak peak' has me concerned.
If it's just the rest of the Slaanesh stuff and then the arm of a Rumour Engine I won't be happy, but knowing GW it'll probably be even less than that.
It might not be as grand as it was last year, but part of that very well might be that their studio painters are behind schedule thanks to things not being in their hands yet.
GaroRobe wrote: Phew. Maybe the advent calender will have been for a reason. At the very least, I imagine we'll see the whole seraphon underworld band and maybe the new zombies
GaroRobe wrote: Phew. Maybe the advent calender will have been for a reason. At the very least, I imagine we'll see the whole seraphon underworld band and maybe the new zombies
The Advent Calendar did have a reason. It was 24 days of Rumour Engine instead of one weekly as normal to give you even more bits and pieces to ponder in celebration of the holidays. In past years, we got Black Library Advent calendars. It was never presented as anything more than that. I just don't get why people keep on thinking it was more than what GW said it was.
GaroRobe wrote: Phew. Maybe the advent calender will have been for a reason. At the very least, I imagine we'll see the whole seraphon underworld band and maybe the new zombies
The Advent Calendar did have a reason. It was 24 days of Rumour Engine instead of one weekly as normal to give you even more bits and pieces to ponder in celebration of the holidays. In past years, we got Black Library Advent calendars. It was never presented as anything more than that. I just don't get why people keep on thinking it was more than what GW said it was.
I mean, a lot of the rumor engines seemed linked. Multiple pics pointed to Echlisiarchy priests/Inquisition. And the only other time GW did a mass release of rumor engine pics was for Shadowspear/Chaos Space Marine release, which ended with them revealing everything. Some were linked to hedonites, which we knew would also be revealed more. And a couple are most likely linked to some new undeath faction. Given how most of the pics could fall into three or four categories, I feel like it's not unreasonable people expected more to be revealed (also half the reveal was stuff we already knew was coming. Lelith and the Palantine ).
Edit: Looks like they're revealing the store anniversary models this week. That should be cool
These are "real" motion poses and might well be the kind of thing sculptors are working with.
While this is true, and, I don't need reminded of this, one of my degrees was in animation, it doesn't convey movement and dynamism to the viewer. Which means it fails in it's intent.
I really feel the quality of GW's art has declined as, while they've sprouted lots of interesting detail, basics like posing and conveying the character of the mini have badly deteriorated. There are reasons for this, but... yeah.
These are "real" motion poses and might well be the kind of thing sculptors are working with.
While this is true, and, I don't need reminded of this, one of my degrees was in animation, it doesn't convey movement and dynamism to the viewer. Which means it fails in it's intent.
I really feel the quality of GW's art has declined as, while they've sprouted lots of interesting detail, basics like posing and conveying the character of the mini have badly deteriorated. There are reasons for this, but... yeah.
In an attempt to push it further, a lot of their designs have become complete dog gak. Like, what is this gun supposed to be? Why did anyone sign off on this concept?
I honestly think they peaked a number of years ago, and whilst some of their stuff reaches the heights they once hit consistently, mostly it just doesn't. This in regards to posing as well as a lot of other essential elements of good miniature design.
It might not be as grand as it was last year, but part of that very well might be that their studio painters are behind schedule thanks to things not being in their hands yet.
Another year.... another load of models balancing on 1 foot or leaping 1 footed from terrain.
The Sisters looked really good with solid poses.
This years Dark Eldar boss is surely just a self parody of themselves at GW. At least they have a sense of humour. Untextured hair, so long that 3 feet of it would trail behind you, with hooks in to snag on anything in the ground, leaping from a terrain piece on 1 foot. Sigh.
It's more maddening to see GW hype up big reveals only to show us things that they've already shown us or announced.
And yet at the same time do you expect them to do any different?
We on Dakka are a very keen and active community, I'd wager many active dakka users are checking the GW community site daily. So we do pick up on every bit of news; and rumour. GW reveal events are for all GW customers including those hwo might only view the website once a month for a purchase or such. Ergo lots of people who are not aware of the new things coming.
We also know that GW generally only thinks and markets a few months in advance - typically around 3 (though with Necromunda they've started branching out with some annual plans). So if you've already seen rumours and leaks and info from GW for a few months and that stuff still hasn't come out; then you know any formal dates or such for it will get announced at a reveal - even if its the same marketing photos going around again.
GW marketing are never going to go "You know this is just a modest reveal; really its not worth your time. I mean seriously you can go get a cuppa and watch something else if you like; we sort of showed you everything already barring the release date/month and that one other model we've not yet shown you.
In the end there is some onus on us to be mature and realise what marketing is and not get stupidly wound up about it every time. Because when the same people keep doing it it doesn't come off as a legitimate complaint but closer to a childish whine.
It's more maddening to see GW hype up big reveals only to show us things that they've already shown us or announced.
Let me get this straight. GW did us dirty on the Christmas Day Reveals because they showed us:
The Palatine: Seen before
Lelith Hesperax: Bits seen before, but we now have a full picture plus detail pictures
The Piety and Pain Box Set: That long ago rumor about a Sisters - Dark Elder starter is finally solved
Hedonites of Slaanesh Battletome: Assumed, but now officially announced
Slickblade Seekers: First I've heard or seen
Blissbarb Seekers: First I've heard or seen
Slaangor Fiendbloods: First I've heard or seen
Blissbarb Archers: First I've heard or seen
I like the old Lelith model, I'll just go ahead and say that. This one looks..off to me. I like that it is plastic but..eh ? I'm not sure why they couldn't have brought back an old character with a redesign.
The box set I am in the middle about. Depends on how much they try and sell it for. If its reasonable enough, I'll bite, if not just doesn't make any sense to me to get it over the models I'd still need for both armies.
It's more maddening to see GW hype up big reveals only to show us things that they've already shown us or announced.
Let me get this straight. GW did us dirty on the Christmas Day Reveals because they showed us:
The Palatine: Seen before
Lelith Hesperax: Bits seen before, but we now have a full picture plus detail pictures
The Piety and Pain Box Set: That long ago rumor about a Sisters - Dark Elder starter is finally solved
Hedonites of Slaanesh Battletome: Assumed, but now officially announced
Slickblade Seekers: First I've heard or seen
Blissbarb Seekers: First I've heard or seen
Slaangor Fiendbloods: First I've heard or seen
Blissbarb Archers: First I've heard or seen
we've already had headshots of the Slaanesh models in the week that the new warcry books came out
These are "real" motion poses and might well be the kind of thing sculptors are working with.
While this is true, and, I don't need reminded of this, one of my degrees was in animation, it doesn't convey movement and dynamism to the viewer. Which means it fails in it's intent.
I really feel the quality of GW's art has declined as, while they've sprouted lots of interesting detail, basics like posing and conveying the character of the mini have badly deteriorated. There are reasons for this, but... yeah.
In an attempt to push it further, a lot of their designs have become complete dog gak. Like, what is this gun supposed to be? Why did anyone sign off on this concept?
I honestly think they peaked a number of years ago, and whilst some of their stuff reaches the heights they once hit consistently, mostly it just doesn't. This in regards to posing as well as a lot of other essential elements of good miniature design.
Completely disagree - they've hit new highs in recent years. Since AOS there seems to have been a rejuvenation of creativity. With models like the above, centurions etc. they were at a bit of a creative lull. Compare the previous necron release to the new one - much more inspired.
There's been GSC, SoB, many AOS releases that are just incredible and unlike anything else. Of course there have been some misses in there.
GSC were cool, and AOS is mostly great (moomineth aside) but SoB were a fairly flat retread of the old stuff, but in plastic. "Incredible" is dramatically over-egging the pudding.
They revealed those in the most recent Warcry book, weeks before the showed off all the models.
Not the miniatures in full. The Warcry Battletome only showed a small picture of their face as part of their profiles. So stop making it sound like GW actually showed everything before for those - they didn't.
As for the people overhyping themselves for the previews and all the time assuming it will be BIG, it's just natural. We're used with the Warhammer Community hyping us all the time with a constant feed of information - even when it is small, there is not one day without an article showing us something Warhammer.
So when the information become less satisfying and more filling the gaps because the pandemic slows down everything, it shows.
TBH, I believe the way Social Medias work in general is shaping our brain to constantly crave for news on a shorter periode of time because of that daily feed. The solution may be to cut ourselves from that for a bit of time, and enjoy things when they really come. This "pre-order / hype for the future" culture is what is really maddening.
GW says they are doing X.
People assuming they will also do Y.
GW only does X.
People get upset that GW didn't do Y.
It's a bit madding.
Yes and no. When, as in some other cases, GW says some preview is going to be absolutely massive and then doesn't deliver by e.g. showing things we've seen before, that's GW saying they are doing X, people assuming they will do X, and GW instead doing Y.
When they, as sometimes also is the case, specifically say what to expect and then do exactly that, then some people set themselves up for disappointment by expecting differently - there have been system-specific previews like that this year for instance where people were still expecting something for other games that clearly weren't listed, or like how some folks here are still under the impression the WHFB revival will somehow arrive soon despite it clearly having been said to be years off.
Here, however, we have neither of those. We have GW previewing figures as an advent calendar in the run up to Christmas and having a Christmas Day reveal of something. Can't really blame people for assuming the two are linked. Would make sense, with it being an advent calendar. And in this case, GW neither said they were or weren't connected. It was only ever an assumption by some here, and not that strange an assumption at that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I like the old Lelith model, I'll just go ahead and say that. This one looks..off to me. I like that it is plastic but..eh ? I'm not sure why they couldn't have brought back an old character with a redesign.
Redoing a character in a faithful manner is, in my experience, not a simple matter. Even if the same sculptor does it, they might have acquired new ideas, methods and design standards in the meantime, and work with improved tools that let them do things differently. It can get worse if a different sculptor is put on the job who may bring a different perspective, if not an outright different outlook on a character.
Think of Fabius Bile for a moment. They completely redid his face even though the old one was sculpted well for the time and left its mark for twenty years. Yet somehow, someone was of the opinion that the face wasn't right and needed a complete change. What was the point of that? Who knows?
In my opinion GW simply doesn't have a manager that reins sculptors in and occasionally says "do this, but crisper". There's no consistent culture of consistency at GW, so we get a lot of redesigned models that hit or miss entirely on the basis of whether the sculptor "gets it".
They revealed those in the most recent Warcry book, weeks before the showed off all the models.
Not the miniatures in full. The Warcry Battletome only showed a small picture of their face as part of their profiles. So stop making it sound like GW actually showed everything before for those - they didn't.
As for the people overhyping themselves for the previews and all the time assuming it will be BIG, it's just natural. We're used with the Warhammer Community hyping us all the time with a constant feed of information - even when it is small, there is not one day without an article showing us something Warhammer.
So when the information become less satisfying and more filling the gaps because the pandemic slows down everything, it shows.
TBH, I believe the way Social Medias work in general is shaping our brain to constantly crave for news on a shorter periode of time because of that daily feed. The solution may be to cut ourselves from that for a bit of time, and enjoy things when they really come. This "pre-order / hype for the future" culture is what is really maddening.
I can't agree more. GW gives full model previews of models we've only seen bits of and people complain they already seen them.
I guess the only think right GW can do is provide less previews so that people are disappointed with the few they get.
They revealed those in the most recent Warcry book, weeks before the showed off all the models.
Not the miniatures in full. The Warcry Battletome only showed a small picture of their face as part of their profiles. So stop making it sound like GW actually showed everything before for those - they didn't.
As for the people overhyping themselves for the previews and all the time assuming it will be BIG, it's just natural. We're used with the Warhammer Community hyping us all the time with a constant feed of information - even when it is small, there is not one day without an article showing us something Warhammer.
So when the information become less satisfying and more filling the gaps because the pandemic slows down everything, it shows.
TBH, I believe the way Social Medias work in general is shaping our brain to constantly crave for news on a shorter periode of time because of that daily feed. The solution may be to cut ourselves from that for a bit of time, and enjoy things when they really come. This "pre-order / hype for the future" culture is what is really maddening.
I can't agree more. GW gives full model previews of models we've only seen bits of and people complain they already seen them.
I guess the only think right GW can do is provide less previews so that people are disappointed with the few they get.
Let's not forget how weird it is that people are crying about lack of previews in the first place. If it were a lack of new product then yeah, I could sympathise somewhat, but feeling aggrieved that there aren't enough previews of new product is super lame.
If they didn't exist, there wouldn't be anything for the people who like to complain about complainers to complain about. It's a neat, self-perpetuating ecosystem.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I like the old Lelith model, I'll just go ahead and say that. This one looks..off to me. I like that it is plastic but..eh ? I'm not sure why they couldn't have brought back an old character with a redesign.
Redoing a character in a faithful manner is, in my experience, not a simple matter. Even if the same sculptor does it, they might have acquired new ideas, methods and design standards in the meantime, and work with improved tools that let them do things differently. It can get worse if a different sculptor is put on the job who may bring a different perspective, if not an outright different outlook on a character.
Think of Fabius Bile for a moment. They completely redid his face even though the old one was sculpted well for the time and left its mark for twenty years. Yet somehow, someone was of the opinion that the face wasn't right and needed a complete change. What was the point of that? Who knows?
In my opinion GW simply doesn't have a manager that reins sculptors in and occasionally says "do this, but crisper". There's no consistent culture of consistency at GW, so we get a lot of redesigned models that hit or miss entirely on the basis of whether the sculptor "gets it".
I can completely agree, Fabius was a very dated model though, as was Ragnar when they replaced him to give a marine example and Mephiston, etc. Lelith really didn't need a re do and I'd argue the new model in plastic isn't any crisper at all. The issue for me is the older Lelith is still sculpted better when considering the new one, granted that is a taste thing but there are some oddities with the new sculpt that aren't " better tooling ".
Like don't me wrong I don't think its awful, it just feels kind of un needed when DE have lost so many characters over time and I think I can say most DE players would have loved to get a returning, re done character. I mean Drazhar I feel anyways wasn't a bad call to redo as he was also a very old model. Lelith was working well, but for being finestuff, outside the safer nature of plastic I can imagine most who have the metal version of the old lelith sculpt will probably not be rushing out to dubiously upgrade.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Call me crazy but my favourite pose for models is "both legs on the ground"
I've been feeling the same since the plastic harlies came out years ago. They are awesome minis, but just because plastics have improved and GWcan make things super-dynamic, doesn't mean they have to.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I like the old Lelith model, I'll just go ahead and say that. This one looks..off to me. I like that it is plastic but..eh ? I'm not sure why they couldn't have brought back an old character with a redesign.
Redoing a character in a faithful manner is, in my experience, not a simple matter. Even if the same sculptor does it, they might have acquired new ideas, methods and design standards in the meantime, and work with improved tools that let them do things differently. It can get worse if a different sculptor is put on the job who may bring a different perspective, if not an outright different outlook on a character.
Think of Fabius Bile for a moment. They completely redid his face even though the old one was sculpted well for the time and left its mark for twenty years. Yet somehow, someone was of the opinion that the face wasn't right and needed a complete change. What was the point of that? Who knows?
In my opinion GW simply doesn't have a manager that reins sculptors in and occasionally says "do this, but crisper". There's no consistent culture of consistency at GW, so we get a lot of redesigned models that hit or miss entirely on the basis of whether the sculptor "gets it".
I can completely agree, Fabius was a very dated model though, as was Ragnar when they replaced him to give a marine example and Mephiston, etc. Lelith really didn't need a re do and I'd argue the new model in plastic isn't any crisper at all. The issue for me is the older Lelith is still sculpted better when considering the new one, granted that is a taste thing but there are some oddities with the new sculpt that aren't " better tooling ".
Like don't me wrong I don't think its awful, it just feels kind of un needed when DE have lost so many characters over time and I think I can say most DE players would have loved to get a returning, re done character. I mean Drazhar I feel anyways wasn't a bad call to redo as he was also a very old model. Lelith was working well, but for being finestuff, outside the safer nature of plastic I can imagine most who have the metal version of the old lelith sculpt will probably not be rushing out to dubiously upgrade.
I just wish it was a returning model is all.
Yeah, it's a shame GW has such extreme ideas for army updates. It didn't do Necrons any good getting a single character every three of four years since the large 2011 update, and now that's been made up for by a deluge of model releases for a largely plastic army that didn't really need that much to be in a good place. All the while other armies get to sit it out with nothing or just a single character with their codex update, waiting their turn for the big time. That's not to mention the role of Marine slant that gets people riled up a lot lately. I don't get why GW won't spread out the love a little more and give all armies smaller, but more frequent releases. Seems like a no brainer to me to keep a larger portion of customers happy over time than let segments of the customer base wait for years and years and either see them get bitter over it or quit entirely.
Dark Eldar have been on the receiving end of that in the most extreme way with all the dropped unit entries. Truth be told, as much as I love my Necrons I would have happily just gotten plastic Fayled Ones and a C'tan and seen a substantial update to the pointy ears instead (icky as they are ). Even with Marine slant it shouldn't be so hard to bring the remaining armies up to par instead of letting them languish.
Yeah that is all I'm saying, people wouldn't be so mad if it didn't feel like you just languished till you almost give up then get something.
I mean sisters got some good stuff but after how long ? Dark Eldar got some good stuff with their last big update now a long time ago but that was the first touch in how long ?
GW breed the discontent and toss out crumbs when really you'd love a whole loaf of bread at this point. It's just befuddling and little drops like this box for DE and Sisters doesn't really scratch that itch, just makes you wish they'd do more.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I like the old Lelith model, I'll just go ahead and say that. This one looks..off to me. I like that it is plastic but..eh ? I'm not sure why they couldn't have brought back an old character with a redesign.
Redoing a character in a faithful manner is, in my experience, not a simple matter. Even if the same sculptor does it, they might have acquired new ideas, methods and design standards in the meantime, and work with improved tools that let them do things differently. It can get worse if a different sculptor is put on the job who may bring a different perspective, if not an outright different outlook on a character.
Think of Fabius Bile for a moment. They completely redid his face even though the old one was sculpted well for the time and left its mark for twenty years. Yet somehow, someone was of the opinion that the face wasn't right and needed a complete change. What was the point of that? Who knows?
In my opinion GW simply doesn't have a manager that reins sculptors in and occasionally says "do this, but crisper". There's no consistent culture of consistency at GW, so we get a lot of redesigned models that hit or miss entirely on the basis of whether the sculptor "gets it".
I work in a company that has been redesigning ingame models for a decade and there are many factors at work and I would be surprised if GW didn't have the same.
* New Art Director. This can change a lot as art directors have different tastes. One might hate certain colors or forms or something, then they leave and another comes instead.
* New artists. Each artist has a wildly different aesthetic from another. Sure, there are copycats out there, but they don't really bring anything to the table except copycat skills and they really don't help with keeping the art and design alive.
* New tools provide different techniques that enable new approaches. This usually does not result in big changes except faster speed and more detail.
* Then there is the key factor: The artists/director were never happy with the original design to begin with. It might have been too simple at the time or did not convey well enough what they wanted in game. This means that there is a larger redesign to get things more in line with what they envisioned.
* Extra bit: Concept Art is not always how the end product looks like. During the entire process the Art Director and the team can find flaws in the Concept Art or discover issues that won't translate well into a 3D model. Changes will be made and it is always good to keep in mind that this process is a collaborative process where multiple artists often have an input in the final design.
Nice elaboration, very much along the lines of what I was thinking.
Unfortunately I know the artist's mind all too well and the one thing I see consistently missing is outside consideration. It's always the artist's vision that's at the center, never any consideration for whether something, no matter how flawed it may have been in the artist's mind, found an audience and it's a show of disrespect to take that away again in the name of pursuing a better vision.
GW has a studio manager—who was a sculptor. He’s not going to rein in anyone. He has commented how his own sculpts never lived up to his own sketches. He also admits that models are sculpted then rules and fluff created. It’s selling minis that makes them money and there are a lot more minis sold than games being played. ~casually sidesteps to block line of sight to cupboard of shame~
Chairman Aeon wrote: He also admits that models are sculpted then rules and fluff created.
And this right here is why GW has problems both with consistency, game balance, and art. It's a relic of Alan Merritt, IMHO who loved to decide what was canon at any given moment, and who's positions on certain issues and how they are represented in 40k in particular have indirectly led to locked threads.
Over things from the video are
- moar knights & AdMech
- more Luminelves (someone flying on a cloud, some kind of possibly non-horse cavalry?),
- actually a Vampire Hunter
- a wight or some other semi-squishy undead?
I like the seer and the swordsman. The rest of the model doesn't seem interesting to me at first glance. Also it's pretty meh he's a special character.
Hoping lumineth but wave 2 within year would be unusual(within slightly over half a year due to corona delaying initial wjve)
They're definitely Lumineth. Not familiar with the lore, but these seem like the Sky followers as opposed to the Stone ones that came in the first lot.
Tim the Biovore wrote: Big fella does not disappoint. Seems we were bang on about there being a witch hunter, but I wasn't expecting that undead Santa looking bloke.
Hoping lumineth but wave 2 within year would be unusual(within slightly over half a year due to corona delaying initial wjve)
They're definitely Lumineth. Not familiar with the lore, but these seem like the Sky followers as opposed to the Stone ones that came in the first lot.
Oh there's tons of lumineth to be released but with original release day of june by march seems early. Only stormcast have got 2nd wave in aos. Lumineth getting wave 2 when other older factions are still waiting expansion seems odd. Not that i complain(well wallet would...).
Whole tyrion side with tyrion, scouts, chariots, artirelly, martial rather than wizards, 3 more elements...
Sooo at ~0:21, the mount seems to be a bit larger than a horse and has a really long neck? Camels, or dare we hope for ... Chocobo riders? (Chicken Elves incoming!!)
Definitely wind temple Lumineth in there. It felt like half an army when it was released. I’m glad it’s being expanded soon. The details on that witch hunter look great. Can’t wait to see the full model.
It was less than half actually. Teclis&Tyrion sides and 4 element.
Surprised it wasnt Teclis and 2 elements first leading to Tyrion & 2 elements book later. Maybe this is just 1 element with Tyrion and 2 elements left later.
Hoping lumineth but wave 2 within year would be unusual(within slightly over half a year due to corona delaying initial wjve)
It's Lumineth. Specifically, the Wind Temple.
They have long-legged steeds with archers as the basic unit and cloud-riding mages.
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tneva82 wrote: It was less than half actually. Teclis&Tyrion sides and 4 element.
Surprised it wasnt Teclis and 2 elements first leading to Tyrion & 2 elements book later. Maybe this is just 1 element with Tyrion and 2 elements left later.
The Elementari are tied to Teclis not Tyrion though.
The Tyrionic stuff is more 'traditional'. Scouts, warmachines, cavalry, etc.
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MobileSuitRandom wrote: Sooo at ~0:21, the mount seems to be a bit larger than a horse and has a really long neck? Camels, or dare we hope for ... Chocobo riders? (Chicken Elves incoming!!)
Description in the book was "long-legged steeds". They don't name exactly what they are...but the Wind Temple seems to be focused in the more arid/desert-y areas.
Also there's a cool description of the Aelementari Spirit. Fox-faced and an archer.
MobileSuitRandom wrote: Sooo at ~0:21, the mount seems to be a bit larger than a horse and has a really long neck? Camels, or dare we hope for ... Chocobo riders? (Chicken Elves incoming!!)
Camels feel most likely as far as actual animal mounts go, the neck armour suggests it's not something that would lower its head to charge, like something with antlers, and the second teaser shot shows rear leg armour, so it's not bipedal. Could be something entirely fictional too, but the above flavour text giving the subfaction a desert feel makes camels a decent bet.
Also, I'd guess the fast turn around on Lumineth might have something to do with how wide a net a generic elf faction casts, especially when compared to other AoS factions like Fyreslayers and Kharadrons that pigeonholed themselves into a specific aspect of their original parent faction.
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Kanluwen wrote: Also there's a cool description of the Aelementari Spirit. Fox-faced and an archer.
2021 looks to be pretty underwhelming if this video is anyhting to go by, yikes. It's almost like the video was cut to about a 10th of it's content as GDubs realized "Feth, we probably can't even release what we had planned for 4th quarter 2020, let alone a lot of new content for 2021"
So glad we had such a massive non needed space marine release to last us 9+ months. Might be a good time to get back to playing some Team Yankee or FOW.
bullyboy wrote: 2021 looks to be pretty underwhelming if this video is anyhting to go by, yikes. It's almost like the video was cut to about a 10th of it's content as GDubs realized "Feth, we probably can't even release what we had planned for 4th quarter 2020, let alone a lot of new content for 2021"
So glad we had such a massive non needed space marine release to last us 9+ months. Might be a good time to get back to playing some Team Yankee or FOW.
Seeing they generally show only 3 months ahead and not every model...just how many models you expect in 3 months? 10 armies and new game?
bullyboy wrote: 2021 looks to be pretty underwhelming if this video is anyhting to go by, yikes. It's almost like the video was cut to about a 10th of it's content as GDubs realized "Feth, we probably can't even release what we had planned for 4th quarter 2020, let alone a lot of new content for 2021"
So glad we had such a massive non needed space marine release to last us 9+ months. Might be a good time to get back to playing some Team Yankee or FOW.
Near future. Not all of 2021.
Expect a third edition of AoS in the middle of the year and potentially a new Middle-Earth starter set too, as both are due in keeping with the three year cycle that seems to be working theory on edition updates. They wouldn't spoil that this far away from the date
Not really, it's going to take the first 3 months just to catch up with what else we have seen. Hedonites, Drukhari vs sisters box (plus drukhari codex), Dark Angels and the 6-7 marine kit still needing to be released. Throw in some of this new stuff in second quarter (Knights/AT, admech character, lumineth, and what ever else was in there) and we're already halfway done, especially if Covid continues to disrupt. 9th 40K is really turning into a gap year as we won't see much play for at least 3 months, at a minimum.
We have definitely reached the era of diorama characters.
As for this one, I quite like him overall. The only real criticism is the tongue coming out of his mouth because it doesn't look like it's coming out of his mouth. It looks like someone sculpted a tongue next to his mouth.
Don't forget we've still got the similar video from last year for 40K that wasn't fully released and other stuff too - so ontop of this there's a boatload of things coming over the next few months.
The new leader for Slaanesh looks awesome and I love the crab ogors at the front and how the pincers are really getting thick. Interesting to see the snake design up the back, really would love to see some sepentine beasts return to Slaanesh!
I hope the new titan is an AT one and that looks like a lumineth pair for certain and a big fantasy mount too by the design of the riders leg.
bullyboy wrote: Not really, it's going to take the first 3 months just to catch up with what else we have seen. Hedonites, Drukhari vs sisters box (plus drukhari codex), Dark Angels and the 6-7 marine kit still needing to be released. Throw in some of this new stuff in second quarter (Knights/AT, admech character, lumineth, and what ever else was in there) and we're already halfway done, especially if Covid continues to disrupt. 9th 40K is really turning into a gap year as we won't see much play for at least 3 months, at a minimum.
Except gw doesn't tease that far away...they show models, it's 3 months at most.
Corona might delay a bit but 6 months? They wouldn't show them yet if they expect to get them out th@t far.
The chariot's certainly something else. I'm guessing those are Chaos Ogors pulling it, and its always nice to see non-human chaos followers. Not big on many of the retainers, although peacock lady could be a good GSC magos. The fully armored dude is really cool though, and just like the Samurai Skeleton that came with the Bonereaper Diorama Dude, a bit cooler than the main model himself.
Hedonites certainly are a cool faction. Khorne and kinda Tzeentch had big releases, but I don't think any of their models can really compete with the Hedonite range. Ironically (given how many models dedicated to him he's gotten over the last 2-4 years) now Nurgle needs some love to expand his own mortals.
bullyboy wrote: Not really, it's going to take the first 3 months just to catch up with what else we have seen. Hedonites, Drukhari vs sisters box (plus drukhari codex), Dark Angels and the 6-7 marine kit still needing to be released. Throw in some of this new stuff in second quarter (Knights/AT, admech character, lumineth, and what ever else was in there) and we're already halfway done, especially if Covid continues to disrupt. 9th 40K is really turning into a gap year as we won't see much play for at least 3 months, at a minimum.
Except gw doesn't tease that far away...they show models, it's 3 months at most.
Corona might delay a bit but 6 months? They wouldn't show them yet if they expect to get them out th@t far.
The "New Edition, New Models" video is 6 months old already and we still haven't seen anything from it revealed
Not a huge reveal, but a nice tease nonetheless. Plus, it actually solved some Christmas rumor engines.
*Weird animal holding something: the snake on the back of the palaquin
*Bland hammer: confirmed witchhunter. Maybe they'll have a more copyrightable name. I guess wighthunter is free. (What's the dude from the AOS series called? Is he just a witchhunter?)
*Marble statue
Edit: I hope they give a shoutout to the eavy metal painter that made a slaanesh symbol in the marble texture. That's subtle and genius
The "New Edition, New Models" video is 6 months old already and we still haven't seen anything from it revealed
We literally saw the Palatine revealed at the end of the video from "New Edition, New Models".
We saw the Death Guard character a few previews later.
Christmas Day saw the reveal of Lelith Hesperax.
The only ones not revealed in full are the Skitarii and Ork.
GaroRobe wrote: Not a huge reveal, but a nice tease nonetheless. Plus, it actually solved some Christmas rumor engines.
*Weird animal holding something: the snake on the back of the palaquin
*Bland hammer: confirmed witchhunter. Maybe they'll have a more copyrightable name. I guess wighthunter is free. (What's the dude from the AOS series called? Is he just a witchhunter?)
*Marble statue
Edit: I hope they give a shoutout to the eavy metal painter that made a slaanesh symbol in the marble texture. That's subtle and genius
I think for a really quick moment you can see the witch hunter is also wearing the boots from the rumour engine.
Kanluwen wrote: Looks more like a Draugr than a Vampire of any kind. There's some zombie-styled stuff in the Advent Rumor Engine stuff.
Yeah, Draugr was also one of my first associations, especially with the kinda dark-agey shield decoration. Is there any fluff related to wights or any kind of 'ancient' undead in AOS currently?
Legions of Nagash is the book where they would likely make an appearance, especially if the idea is to add a 'zombie hero' option like Skeletons have in the form of the Wight King.
It's clearly undead, though I admit, I thought it was a bearded orc at first
Have they teased any zombie faction in the lore? Morathi's shattered realm book dropped pretty heavy vampire hints (Plus we (most likely) havethe underworld warband with vampires coming.)
Umm that new teaser video has Lumineth. A cool bro on a cloud and an armoured champ on a fury mount of some kind. New chamber of Lumineth, maybe the wind temple?
Tiberius501 wrote: Umm that new teaser video has Lumineth. A cool bro on a cloud and an armoured champ on a fury mount of some kind. New chamber of Lumineth, maybe the wind temple?
The mage for sure is Wind Temple.
Remember that the Aelementari Temples are part of the Teclian side of things. We saw the Teclian Vanguard as the 'reintroduction' of the Lumineth to the Realms at large.
I'm starting to wonder if the mount might be a Vanari general of some kind rather than the mounted Wind Temple devotees, who were listed as archers on 'long-limbed steeds'.
Tiberius501 wrote: Umm that new teaser video has Lumineth. A cool bro on a cloud and an armoured champ on a fury mount of some kind. New chamber of Lumineth, maybe the wind temple?
The mage for sure is Wind Temple.
Remember that the Aelementari Temples are part of the Teclian side of things. We saw the Teclian Vanguard as the 'reintroduction' of the Lumineth to the Realms at large.
I'm starting to wonder if the mount might be a Vanari general of some kind rather than the mounted Wind Temple devotees, who were listed as archers on 'long-limbed steeds'.
The steed appears to have a long neck, so there’s potential it’s the long limbed steeds and be like epic elf camels!
The steed appears to have a long neck, so there’s potential it’s the long limbed steeds and be like epic elf camels!
You are probably right though.
I don't really think of a neck as a limb.
I'm racking my brain trying to think of what could be a 'long-limbed riding beasts' and camels/dromedary style of mounts feel right...but then again the Aelementari incarnates are meant to emphasize something relating to the element in question, so maybe it's some kind of vulpine critter?
Only reason I'm walking back on the 'hero' looking bit is the lack of a bow anywhere. The Aelementari incarnate has a bow and the devotees are mentioned as having bows too.
Well looks like the AoS “Vampire Hunter” speculation from the rumor mill thread was confirmed. Looks like we are getting some new undead of some vein too. First thought that spring to mind was undead dwarves looking at that picture with beard and axe, but the mini may be a bit tall.
Sabotage! wrote: Well looks like the AoS “Vampire Hunter” speculation from the rumor mill thread was confirmed. Looks like we are getting some new undead of some vein too. First thought that spring to mind was undead dwarves looking at that picture with beard and axe, but the mini may be a bit tall.
The vampires vs vampire hunter box tga is speculating looks more and more likely. Maybe march
H.B.M.C. wrote: We have definitely reached the era of diorama characters.
As for this one, I quite like him overall. The only real criticism is the tongue coming out of his mouth because it doesn't look like it's coming out of his mouth. It looks like someone sculpted a tongue next to his mouth.
It is a bit tongue in cheek, yes.
-----
Overall...
eh. I'd hoped for more. Not a special character and a few more glimpses
So...
Titans (one definitely chaos)
The Skitarii character again
Cow-elf cloud mage
Cow-elf camel rider
Vampire hunter with hammer
ornate shield (with manufacturing lines and nothing about the model its attached to beyond red cloak
axe-orc in a trench coat.
Diorama of decadance
The "New Edition, New Models" video is 6 months old already and we still haven't seen anything from it revealed
We literally saw the Palatine revealed at the end of the video from "New Edition, New Models".
We saw the Death Guard character a few previews later.
Christmas Day saw the reveal of Lelith Hesperax.
The only ones not revealed in full are the Skitarii and Ork.
And isn’t the Skitarii the same or similar model from the new video.
I’m also not quite understanding people basing we are gonna have a light/terrible 2021 based on today’s tease.
As if we are getting just 7 models from that video for the next 6 months even if that was the time frame, plus prior revealed things.
I mean, maybe they still like to keep some stuff not even revealed till their preview specifically for it?
Ya know, one in March previewing all of the April stuff let’s say. And if it was teased April was Lumineth, would we thing they are just getting a single model?
And if all that pirate/zombie stuff is just Underworlds, which it could be, then we already know the slot for it.
So that’s many teases from here and rumour engine stuff all sorted with a release window.
There’s no could fill April-June with just a Knight, Lumineth, and the Witch Hunter etc.
If the knight is a Titan and Witch Hunter from a new boxed WH Quest or similar. Then are both outside of the AoS and 40k release for any given month. So there’s a lot more to fill the rest of those gaps which is left unknown (particularly when it’ll be back to weekly releases by then by all estimations, unless something else happens).
I’m also not quite understanding people basing we are gonna have a light/terrible 2021 based on today’s tease.
As if we are getting just 7 models from that video for the next 6 months even if that was the time frame, plus prior revealed things.
Not sure that's anyone's argument. I think people just expected a bit more from the preview than incomplete views of a handful of models + the one diorama.
But 2021 is also looking light, since we were supposed to get a xenos codex and the DA supplement on top of each other, and now everything has been pushed (due to a variety of factors) to stretch those two books (and DG) to one a month out to March. And there are _still_ most of the marine multipart kits to get through, and some leftover necrons.
Dunno about anyone else, but I've got a strong feel of 'get on with it' already, despite getting some of the delays.
The skitarri and ork characters have been on the fringes for an absurd amount of time now. Theoretically there will be new stuff too, but everything seems clogged and backlogged.
Initially I want to say Zompirates based off the chap with the Axe (who looks to be an Ogor sized Headman) and the 'Captain.'
But then, the GLARINGLY OBVIOUS Witchhunter they teased beforehand tells me that there HAS to be Vampires in the mix somewhere else the hammer and stakes are awfully redundant...
Also, the Lumineth bits beforehand.
Floaty Cloud Mage I don't care for.
The mounted chap....well, that's interesting. Mount it obviously bigger than normal mounts. A lot bigger. It has bling on it. Ornate bling. Rider has an elaborate cloak and fairly blingy armour.
Not sure that's anyone's argument. I think people just expected a bit more from the preview than incomplete views of a handful of models + the one diorama.
Honestly, I think people are overestimating how big these previews usually are. We've been kinda spoiled this year with the online previews compared to the usual event previews.
But 2021 is also looking light, since we were supposed to get a xenos codex and the DA supplement on top of each other, and now everything has been pushed (due to a variety of factors) to stretch those two books (and DG) to one a month out to March. And there are _still_ most of the marine multipart kits to get through, and some leftover necrons.
There's 5 marine kits left: Bladeguard, Eradicators, Speeder, Heavy Intercessors, and the Gravis Captain.
Dark Angels was going to be the last book and slot all that stuff in.
Remember that it's less 'them stretching things out' and more 'stretching preorders out, period'. We start January 16th with Death Guard releases, then it's 14 days to the next set of preorders meaning our preorders going forward look like this:
January 16th--Death Guard
January 30th--???
February 13th--???
February 27th--???
March 13th---???
March 27th---???
The only thing we know, definitively, is that the Hedonites stuff will show up in February and there's Underworlds, Necromunda, and LOTR releases scattered throughout.
Dunno about anyone else, but I've got a strong feel of 'get on with it' already, despite getting some of the delays.
The skitarri and ork characters have been on the fringes for an absurd amount of time now. Theoretically there will be new stuff too, but everything seems clogged and backlogged.
I've been waiting for the Skitarii character for awhile but some of the "I wants it now!" is getting irksome with regards to these previews. People hype themselves up and then get upset their hypes don't come true.
yukishiro1 wrote: It would be just like them to put Tyrion on a weird elf camel, to go with Teclis' weird elf sphinx and the weird elf cows.
Would just show that their remembering of their 'golden age' may have been strongly influenced by recreational drugs rather than actual memories with how bizarre the Lumineth are turning out. Hopped up even higher than the slann who are literal frogs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: There's 5 marine kits left: Bladeguard, Eradicators, Speeder, Heavy Intercessors, and the Gravis Captain.
Dark Angels was going to be the last book and slot all that stuff in.
Remember that it's less 'them stretching things out' and more 'stretching preorders out, period'. We start January 16th with Death Guard releases, then it's 14 days to the next set of preorders meaning our preorders going forward look like this:
January 16th--Death Guard
January 30th--???
February 13th--???
February 27th--???
March 13th---???
March 27th---???
The only thing we know, definitively, is that the Hedonites stuff will show up in February and there's Underworlds, Necromunda, and LOTR releases scattered throughout.
Thought Hedonites were late January?
I know the Underworlds Lizardmen are scheduled in for February. Underworlds Chaos Warriors are for January.
For Warhammer Age of Sigmar fans, you’ll see the next new battletome (and a bunch of incredible minis) drop in February. Trust us, this one’s a doozy – we’ll even give you a sneak peek on Christmas day!*
I'm not holding my breath on the Underworlds drops following the pre-Brexit schedule. They usually were released two at a time anyways, so pushing each back a month to do two packs would not be upsetting.
I highly doubt that mounted character is Tyrion in any regards. We're not even close to done with the Teclian side of things, as there's still the River and Wind temples to come and whatever form the Zenith will take(likely one off character model of some kind, since Zenith doesn't have a 'temple' or an 'avatar'). I definitely could see it being some kind of generic Vanari general though(something which is missing from the army right now). The mount reminds me more of a Gryph-Charger or something around that size--and it is worth noting that the Lumineth took great pains not to just slaughter beasts where possible. 90x52mm base would make it a 'big' critter but not monster sized.
Further musings: Tyrion's blind now. Not like "Oh, he's still a super skilled swordsman with a cloth wrapped around his eyes" blind. Eyes melted out of his sockets blind. The story is actually really interesting as it ties to how Teclis came back--the spirit of the Realm's Edge, that brilliant light at the edge of Hysh itself, took an interest in Tyrion being the only mortal ever to have made it that far. They found some kind of common cause and Tyrion "has no memory of the encounter", but upon reawakening Teclis was returned to a mortal form.
Tyrion's also had the strategist side of things played up more than anything else. I would not be shocked if he gets a Katakros styled 'retinue+hero' model and whatever this mounted hero turns out to be is more one of the 'champions of the Vanari' that got mentioned.
The Witch Hunter continues to have me more excited than anything released in recent years, despite the fact that my current projects consist of numerous things released in recent years. Shouldn't be too long until we finally learn more about what it's for now.
It's a disappointing preview, but I can also understand why they aren't teasing stuff they aren't going to be able to release for a long time. Covid has legitimately screwed up their ability to meet demand even on the reduced schedule. If they could make and sell plastic fast enough I have no doubt they would be doing so. The fact that even GW isn't greedy enough to try to push out multiple releases on the old schedule must indicate it knows it can't manage it. It's better they wait to release stuff than we get another Indomitus debacle where demand far exceeds supply and they "release" a bunch of new models nobody can actually get except through Ebay scalpers.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: The Witch Hunter continues to have me more excited than anything released in recent years, despite the fact that my current projects consist of numerous things released in recent years. Shouldn't be too long until we finally learn more about what it's for now.
The more I've seen of it, the more I'm assuming WarCry and an Order of Azyr warband. Wooden stakes might feel very 'vampirey', but they also feel very 'put the witch on display' too. Some of the old fairy/folk tales from Europe apparently had mention of holy wooden stakes for dealing with witches too.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: The Witch Hunter continues to have me more excited than anything released in recent years, despite the fact that my current projects consist of numerous things released in recent years. Shouldn't be too long until we finally learn more about what it's for now.
The more I've seen of it, the more I'm assuming WarCry and an Order of Azyr warband. Wooden stakes might feel very 'vampirey', but they also feel very 'put the witch on display' too. Some of the old fairy/folk tales from Europe apparently had mention of holy wooden stakes for dealing with witches too.
There's something about the Vampire Hunter pose and the outlined pose of the Vampire Underworlds war band which look very similar- almost mirroring each other . I think they are both female too- the Huntress and the Vamp.
war cry or quest would suit me- they look like great models to paint up with out a full faction release around them. A quest Death and Hunters release would also open up the possibility of a follow up Vampire faction in AOS proper.
The Lumineth could well be a small update along with Broken realms, I thought Tyrion for the rider initially, but might just be a hero.
Well that was disappointing.
I was hoping we would get something concrete but nope. Just something for a coded we know it coming.
C'mon GW atleast tell us what that stuff is.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: The Witch Hunter continues to have me more excited than anything released in recent years, despite the fact that my current projects consist of numerous things released in recent years. Shouldn't be too long until we finally learn more about what it's for now.
The more I've seen of it, the more I'm assuming WarCry and an Order of Azyr warband. Wooden stakes might feel very 'vampirey', but they also feel very 'put the witch on display' too. Some of the old fairy/folk tales from Europe apparently had mention of holy wooden stakes for dealing with witches too.
Oh, yeah, I'm just calling it a Witch Hunter as that's what they were called in the old Empire, even when they very much also hunted vampires and whatever unholy other things blighted the land. The first CL Werner Witch Hunter book even focussed on undead. Stakes are definitely an anti-vampire thing overall, and they may well oppose those in any of the smaller skirmish games, or even Warhammer Quest. I'd honestly be happy with just a single cool model anyway, but since a Witch Hunter really wouldn't fit with anything else at the moment, there is bound to be more.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Well that was disappointing.
I was hoping we would get something concrete but nope. Just something for a coded we know it coming.
C'mon GW atleast tell us what that stuff is.
Normally I'd agree, another nothing preview, but since I like AT a lot, and we've got confirmation of a new Titan (not yet another Knight) coming soon, I already got more from this preview than I got from all of Christmas day and advent calendar combined.
I've been waiting for the Skitarii character for awhile but some of the "I wants it now!" is getting irksome with regards to these previews. People hype themselves up and then get upset their hypes don't come true.
Yes, yes, it is of course completely irrational for people to expect models previewed 3+ months ago to actually come out at some point.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Oh, yeah, I'm just calling it a Witch Hunter as that's what they were called in the old Empire, even when they very much also hunted vampires and whatever unholy other things blighted the land. The first CL Werner Witch Hunter book even focussed on undead. Stakes are definitely an anti-vampire thing overall, and they may well oppose those in any of the smaller skirmish games, or even Warhammer Quest. I'd honestly be happy with just a single cool model anyway, but since a Witch Hunter really wouldn't fit with anything else at the moment, there is bound to be more.
The reason I mention Order Azyr is that it seems to be the evolution of the 'Witch Hunter' concept from WHFB crossing a bit with the Inquisition from 40k.
There does not really seem to be a name for the individuals who make it up, outside of their actual names. It consists of Elf, Duardin, and Human members. They seem to fulfill a similar role to the Witch Hunters from the Empire lore of old(hunting witches, undead, monsters, etc) but with an element of Inquisition to them in that they also go after much larger threats to regional security not just a city or a village. The big thing though is that they're sworn to Sigmar over anything else.
The reason I think of it for WarCry over anything else? It would be a good place to debut something like that. Traditional 'witch hunter' styled humans with some Duardin 'engineers' and warriors and Elf scouts/rangers/assassins and maybe some hunting beasts of some kind would be an interesting warband and fill a role similar to that of the Shadowstalkers that we have for the Daughters of Khaine as an 'elite' warband.
I've been waiting for the Skitarii character for awhile but some of the "I wants it now!" is getting irksome with regards to these previews. People hype themselves up and then get upset their hypes don't come true.
Yes, yes, it is of course completely irrational for people to expect models previewed 3+ months ago to actually come out at some point.
The Death Guard guy was supposed to be out in December. Drukhari were coming in January, which means Lelith Hesperax and the Palatine would have dropped then too.
So that would have been 3/5 characters done within two months. July 25th. That's when the preview video I linked went up. It took longer than that to get the Manipulus as a solo release or for the stuff accompanying Engine War(which were previewed in November of 2019) to release.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Well that was disappointing.
I was hoping we would get something concrete but nope. Just something for a coded we know it coming.
C'mon GW atleast tell us what that stuff is.
We didn't know lumineth would be coming this fast. Without exception to them expectation would be more like 2023 earliest.
Love the gw previews. Or rather inevitable whining on dakkadakka after. Keep it up!
The mounted chap....well, that's interesting. Mount it obviously bigger than normal mounts. A lot bigger. It has bling on it. Ornate bling. Rider has an elaborate cloak and fairly blingy armour.
It's Tyrion, isn't it?
Would be rather plain looking god. More likely mounted archers that have been mentioned by gw
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Oh, yeah, I'm just calling it a Witch Hunter as that's what they were called in the old Empire, even when they very much also hunted vampires and whatever unholy other things blighted the land. The first CL Werner Witch Hunter book even focussed on undead. Stakes are definitely an anti-vampire thing overall, and they may well oppose those in any of the smaller skirmish games, or even Warhammer Quest. I'd honestly be happy with just a single cool model anyway, but since a Witch Hunter really wouldn't fit with anything else at the moment, there is bound to be more.
The reason I mention Order Azyr is that it seems to be the evolution of the 'Witch Hunter' concept from WHFB crossing a bit with the Inquisition from 40k.
There does not really seem to be a name for the individuals who make it up, outside of their actual names. It consists of Elf, Duardin, and Human members. They seem to fulfill a similar role to the Witch Hunters from the Empire lore of old(hunting witches, undead, monsters, etc) but with an element of Inquisition to them in that they also go after much larger threats to regional security not just a city or a village. The big thing though is that they're sworn to Sigmar over anything else.
The reason I think of it for WarCry over anything else? It would be a good place to debut something like that. Traditional 'witch hunter' styled humans with some Duardin 'engineers' and warriors and Elf scouts/rangers/assassins and maybe some hunting beasts of some kind would be an interesting warband and fill a role similar to that of the Shadowstalkers that we have for the Daughters of Khaine as an 'elite' warband.
I think Warcry would be awesome place for an Order of Azyr Warband and I would be super excited to get one. The idea of an army of Witch/Vampire Hunters and their variety of minions is pretty neat, but generally such organizations tend to operate on a smaller basis to keep a bit more convert, and as such a Warcry band would be a perfect fit. Warhammer Quest could be an option too I suppose, but I feel Warcry might be more likely considering some of the other "Witch Hunter"-esque rumor mill previews we have seen, it makes me think there may be a few more models dressed in a similar style. They almost definitely won't be an Underworlds band, as those are all accounted for this year essentially (I suppose the Vampire looking symbol could be Vampire Hunters......would be a bit strange though).
I think it would be pretty cool if GW put out a Warcry "Battle Box" with the new Order of Azyr warband and a Vampire/Undead one. They could include a pamphlet with a couple campaigns for each faction with convergences and artifacts and what not. Maybe have a few narrative scenarios where the factions face off against each other also. If they wanted to be really cool they could include the stripped down rules with 3 or 4 battle plans and price the box around the price of a start collecting so new players could have a cheaper entry point into the game (though they would have to use household items for terrain to begin with) and experience players with terrain collections could give the game a try without such a big investment.
Also, while the Underworlds bands could be pushed back, I wouldn't be that surprised in the January and February warbands make it on time. Direchasm was originally supposed to be out in September and if that were the case the first warbands normally would have been released in October or November. I wouldn't be surprised if they already have everything ready for them, but have just trying to find appropriate time slots in the release schedule.
For Warhammer Age of Sigmar fans, you’ll see the next new battletome (and a bunch of incredible minis) drop in February. Trust us, this one’s a doozy – we’ll even give you a sneak peek on Christmas day!*
I'm not holding my breath on the Underworlds drops following the pre-Brexit schedule. They usually were released two at a time anyways, so pushing each back a month to do two packs would not be upsetting.
.
Though arguably they never mentioned those changing.
So it could be that they will carry on as normal. Just at the same time as other releases, which has been done before.
Only two releases in Jan.
One 40k drop. DG.
One “other” which will be Underworlds and anything else for Jan.
Feb has Hedonites, big release.
And DA, likely with all the marine stuff with it.
Then easily could add a single Underworlds band at the same time (then you still have something fantasy based on that release).
March is back to normal, so 40k release week with Codex.
I’d imagine the next Forgotten Realms is then.
A week for Underworlds. Plus something from below maybe.
Then another spare for BB, AT, Necromunda, maybe a two week 40k release depending what’s coming with it. Or week one of March second wave of Febs Hedonite stuff, if it is that big..
Looks like you can spot a shield held by the Lumineth rider, which I think lends support to the proposal that this is a general/champion model akin to the Idoneth king on deepmare, especially given the fancy-looking cloak billowing out behind.
The mounted archer theory could still pan out if they're going for a cataphract-like heavy unit rather than light cavalry - I could see the bow slung over the shoulder or saddle while the soldier is portrayed armed for the charge. It's hard in any case to discount the lore paragraph specifically calling out cloud-surfers and beast-riding archers together, and then getting a glimpse of a cloud surfboard and a ridden beast simultaneously.
In conclusion, it's probably an entirely different third thing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Well that was disappointing.
I was hoping we would get something concrete but nope. Just something for a coded we know it coming.
C'mon GW atleast tell us what that stuff is.
Normally I'd agree, another nothing preview, but since I like AT a lot, and we've got confirmation of a new Titan (not yet another Knight) coming soon, I already got more from this preview than I got from all of Christmas day and advent calendar combined.
Agreed.
Only thing is that Slaanesh has been the hot potato of three previews now, and while I'm happy for those players( I guess they have been waiting a while? ) it was annoying to see it once again being all we have to look at. Even if it hadn't been the new AT Titan, I would have preferred to have seen something else for a change.
Considering the last 2 duel boxes with Slaanesh never sold out it might be that GW is trying to push Slaanesh harder in marketing. Granted one of those sets was split with Khorne and produced in larger numbers for AoS and 40K and the other is only two new models (one for DoK and one for slaanesh).
Also as someone who has taken advantage of those slower sales speeds to my own gain in getting what I want when I can afford it I can't honestly complain (if anything the sales rate of them has been great for me as if they'd sold out release week I'd be missing several sets of stuff that I currently have)
Overread wrote: Considering the last 2 duel boxes with Slaanesh never sold out it might be that GW is trying to push Slaanesh harder in marketing. Granted one of those sets was split with Khorne and produced in larger numbers for AoS and 40K and the other is only two new models (one for DoK and one for slaanesh).
Also as someone who has taken advantage of those slower sales speeds to my own gain in getting what I want when I can afford it I can't honestly complain (if anything the sales rate of them has been great for me as if they'd sold out release week I'd be missing several sets of stuff that I currently have)
To be fair, I don't think there was much enticing people to the slaanesh half side of the box, save the new characters. The DoK side of Pain and Pleasure was what people were after, since they were better models (and more expensive separately.)
I imagine that a boxset involving the newer Hedonites would do very well, especially if the other half of the set wasn't strictly models that existed before AOS.
Overread wrote: Considering the last 2 duel boxes with Slaanesh never sold out it might be that GW is trying to push Slaanesh harder in marketing. Granted one of those sets was split with Khorne and produced in larger numbers for AoS and 40K and the other is only two new models (one for DoK and one for slaanesh).
Also as someone who has taken advantage of those slower sales speeds to my own gain in getting what I want when I can afford it I can't honestly complain (if anything the sales rate of them has been great for me as if they'd sold out release week I'd be missing several sets of stuff that I currently have)
Shadow and pain did sell out, just not in the same weekend. I want to say I remember reading something about how after looncurse they had planned to up the amount of these boxes, which I think has been true since the OBR, Tzeentch and Shadow and pain did not sell out in a single weekend.
Overread wrote: Considering the last 2 duel boxes with Slaanesh never sold out it might be that GW is trying to push Slaanesh harder in marketing.
They might have to make up their minds what slaanesh is about for that to work. Over the last several years, they've been all over the place. How hard it is to remember that s/he's the god of Sex Drugs and Rock&Roll?
Yet this seems to be a severe issue as they try to make a Family Friendly Warhammer using a setting best known for armies of not-Cenobites rampaging across space doing unkind things to people's backsides as a warm up for the *real* fun.
I think its more that the last AoS battletome focused almost exclusively on the leaders. Because of how Depravity worked you didn't really "need/want" anything but leaders and 3 small units of deamonettes for battleline requirements.
Otherwise it was better to have more leaders and summon more leaders. The rest of the model line - chariots, seekers, hellstriders, deamonettes, fiends - weren't bad, but they weren't cheap to buy (points wise) and nothing in them really stood out. Especially when matched against the depravity mechanic.
So I think that's been one issue, the army just hasn't had good reason for fans to "want" to deploy alternative troop heavy forces or to summon more troops and suchlike.
I just hope this time the new Battletome doesn't do the same trick, only this time making mortals super powerful and a "must take" whilst leaving leaders and Demon based troops out in the cold.
Visually speaking I don't see any problems; the leaders they released and the updated fiends fit he line perfectly; the new mortals also fit the line really well. Whilst they aren't Diaz designs, the demonette units (deamonettes, seeker riders and chariots) are all solid kits with a neat amount of interchangeable parts and the chariot, whilst a nightmare of spikes, is a really neat kit in how it makes 2 different chariots out of the box and combines to make a 3rd option.
There's a lot to love in the current Slaanesh line and sure I'd love to see some Deamonette reworkings like those from the Libre Chaotica artwork, but what we have now is good.
Overread wrote: Considering the last 2 duel boxes with Slaanesh never sold out it might be that GW is trying to push Slaanesh harder in marketing.
They might have to make up their minds what slaanesh is about for that to work. Over the last several years, they've been all over the place. How hard it is to remember that s/he's the god of Sex Drugs and Rock&Roll?
Yet this seems to be a severe issue as they try to make a Family Friendly Warhammer using a setting best known for armies of not-Cenobites rampaging across space doing unkind things to people's backsides as a warm up for the *real* fun.
Was Slaanesh every just the god(dess) of lust and sex? People make memes about it, because that's funny. It's like saying Space Wolves name everything wolf, Dark Angels are team-killing heretics, and Alpha Legions have plans inside of plans inside of plans. Eventually, people assume the memes are canon and that they basically summarize the faction in question, which is terrible. With Slaanesh, it's more about desire, and excess, and indulgence. Sure, sex can fall into those categories. But so can gluttony. And someone that prizes possessions and ownership. The dude who wants to be the best is just as capable as falling to the Dark Prince as the man who wants to experience life to the fullest. Heck, Slaanesh's palace is divided into six areas, which include things like Avidity, Gluttony, and Carnality.
Your most complete explanation of Slaanesh, in one place, would be Liber Chaotica. The original explanation of Slaanesh would be Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned (I think StD has more Slaanesh skew that LatD but I can't quite remember)
JWBS wrote: Your most complete explanation of Slaanesh, in one place, would be Liber Chaotica. The original explanation of Slaanesh would be Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned (I think StD has more Slaanesh skew that LatD but I can't quite remember)
Slaves to Darkness is the original Slaanesh lore.
The book contains all lore and rules for Slaanesh deamons (and mortals) and Khorne's as well.
Lost and the Damned was about Tzeentch and Nurgle.
After all these years these books still have an amazing value from the lore content alone,
everything about chaos comes from these volumes.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Slaabesh was never the god of sex, durg and rock and roll.
They are the god is excess and hedonism and perfection
Tell me please, where I can find GW Slaanesh miniature with excess Sex and Perfection?
Everytime someone says "Slaanesh is not about sex" - assumes that it shouldn't be portrayed? And even if it is portrayed (and it is) shouldn't it be in EXCESS?
I'd probably would never had any claims to GW about Slaanesh themed models if it was stated "Slaanesh is not about sex" and never used sexualized visuals in their models. Because there are alot of sex-themed visual elements.
So it's simple - If it's not about sex - stop using relevant imagery. If it is - make it in a character the way you describe it.
Slaanesh is not only about sex - but it's one of the staple of Slaanesh imagery.
In my opinion the only excessive thing that GW portrays on Slaanesh miniatures is Jewelery. The rest is quite lackluster - and could be excessive (with a few exceptions like Infernal Enraptures and Fiends)
GaroRobe wrote: Was Slaanesh every just the god(dess) of lust and sex? People make memes about it, because that's funny.
The problem is the memes tend to overwhelm and everyone just assumes that Slaanesh = Chaos God of Sex. This simply isn't true. As was mentioned above, Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Excess.
I have a somewhat unique perspective about this aspect of 40K, given that I worked on an entire book on this very subject, and to this day the 4Chan level of discourse about "LOL! Slaanesh is all about sex!" still pisses me off.
The whole concept with Lucius was his obsession with becoming the perfect swordsman. Slaanesh has a lot of aspects to their domain, but I think a lot of people lean into Slaanesh being the god of sex because a lot of the Slaanesh demons are sexualized miniatures (in an uncanny valley way), Which makes sense given Slaanesh’s domains. In all reality though, I imagine a large part of the reason earlier Slaanesh releases were very sexualized (to a point that not many other aspects were displayed) is because it’s a lot easier to display sexuality in a miniature than it is something like obsession, desire, pride, etc.
We can reasonably argue about how GW has tried to redefine and evolve slaanesh in recent years, but Slaanesh was conceived very much as the chaos god of pleasure, not excess. See below from Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness.
Rivetbull wrote: We can reasonably argue about how GW has tried to redefine and evolve slaanesh in recent years, but Slaanesh was conceived very much as the chaos god of pleasure, not excess. See below from Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness.
And the Ultramarines once had a half-Eldar Chief Librarian.
40K went through a period of rationalisation at the end of Rogue Trader, and a lot of the original concepts were changed or thrown out completely.
Slaanesh was the god of pleasure, but Slaanesh's definition of pleasure ignored any boundaries or moral codes, and could include extreme things that normal people would find disgusting, agonizing, or suicidal. That is where the angle on excess comes from.
The key commandment to a Slaanesh follower was "Thou must Enjoy!"
Legions of Slaanesh
Slaanesh and his servants indulge in war: it is yet another pleasure to be sampled, not a serious business or test of strength. War is simply a game, part of the greater ritual, and Slaanesh is always the first to insist upon elaborate conditions and rituals before the Legions give battle.
The followers of Slaanesh seek gratification of the senses in all things. Battle is merely another method of finding a new warped pleasure. For Slaanesh's servants the thrills of battle are there to be joyfully experienced and repeated. Slaaneshi Daemons and mortal warriors delight in causing pain and killing; their wanton slaughter is spurred to greater heights by the pleasure they find in bloodshed.
The Slaaneshi attitude to battle and death is reflected in the Legion's appearance. Its troops parade in frivolous colours and clashing patterns, fantastic jewels and flamboyant costumes. The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.
I always thought it was quite explicit that Slaanesh was born from extreme depraved violence, and the violence was mostly of a sexual nature, hence the depravity (as opposed to the purer violence of hate and anger that birthed Khorne). The other stuff that's often linked to Slaanesh like pride, lust and gluttony seem to be lesser facets. They barely touched on gluttony for the first decade or two. Pride was there from the start what with the descriptions of the ancient Eldar at their apogee, but rarely a focus. Same with narcissism, always there but under the surface. I suppose lust was always very important actually, when you consider the original KoS descriptions and illustrations, plus the explicit androgyny and all that this implies.
JWBS wrote: I always thought it was quite explicit that Slaanesh was born from extreme depraved violence, and the violence was mostly of a sexual nature, hence the depravity (as opposed to the purer violence of hate and anger that birthed Khorne). The other stuff that's often linked to Slaanesh like pride, lust and gluttony seem to be lesser facets. They barely touched on gluttony for the first decade or two. Pride was there from the start what with the descriptions of the ancient Eldar at their apogee, but rarely a focus. Same with narcissism, always there but under the surface. I suppose lust was always very important actually, when you consider the original KoS descriptions and illustrations, plus the explicit androgyny and all that this implies.
There is artwork in Realms of Chaos of an obese Slaanesh worshipper in one of the 2 page spreads. Clearly there has to be some gluttony to get that obese. It could be argued that the selfishness of treating others as playthings (again sometimes lethally so) is a form of pride and narcissism, such as that seen in serial killers. The whole "perfection" angle was I think a family friendly angle introduced with the HH and 3rd edition. Can't be hinting at battlefield necrophilia in front of the parents after all.
GW seems to have removed sex from their IPs more or less full-stop, so I guess it's not actually that inconsistent that Slaanesh would be the god-of-excess-which-definitely-doesn't-include-sexual-excess because apparently sex just doesn't really exist period in either 40k or AOS.
It's like a very weird version of 1950s TV. Plenty of decapitations, but everybody sleeps in separate beds.
I have little to zero interest in Slaanesh stuff as it exists now. I always wanted models that could live up to some of the black and white artwork from the old WHF hordes of chaos book. But back then GW art seemed much more grotesque but leaning towards some degree of realism. It was like a golden era when Kopinski was doing art for GW.
That's a shame, though I like this new release for the opposite reason- it finally captures the allure and appeal of slaanesh more than the grotesque monsters of old ever really seemed to live up to.
I'm quite happy with the new teased Slaanesh hero. It's about time we see something from the Chaos god of excess that isn't some vague sexual excess with a side dash of violence. You can't spell excess and depravity without gluttony and sloth. Plus, for those who really think Slaanesh as first and foremost sexual, I don't think I need to spell out the intimate relationship between food and sensual pleasure.
epronovost wrote: I'm quite happy with the new teased Slaanesh hero. It's about time we see something from the Chaos god of excess that isn't some vague sexual excess with a side dash of violence. You can't spell excess and depravity without gluttony and sloth. Plus, for those who really think Slaanesh as first and foremost sexual, I don't think I need to spell out the intimate relationship between food and sensual pleasure.
You mean have sex with them while eating them alive (or dead, whatever floats your boat)?
I wish they would show a more subtle take on the Slaanesh Champion beyond the examples of decadent nobles or crazed artist. Like for example, the ruler of a world that has seemingly turned their world into a paradise, without overt signs of Slaanesh influence or rampant decadence, where even the lower classes seem to have some leisure, basic comforts, and be content. Only for further investigation to find that this paradise while true, is sustained on them sucking dry other worlds around them for labor and resources. Like a cancer, the realm spreads, and the larger the gleaming core, the greater its rapacious hunger. No mere individual gluttony this, but the kind that drains worlds to dry husks.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Well that was disappointing.
I was hoping we would get something concrete but nope. Just something for a coded we know it coming.
C'mon GW atleast tell us what that stuff is.
Normally I'd agree, another nothing preview, but since I like AT a lot, and we've got confirmation of a new Titan (not yet another Knight) coming soon, I already got more from this preview than I got from all of Christmas day and advent calendar combined.
Agreed.
Only thing is that Slaanesh has been the hot potato of three previews now, and while I'm happy for those players( I guess they have been waiting a while? ) it was annoying to see it once again being all we have to look at. Even if it hadn't been the new AT Titan, I would have preferred to have seen something else for a change.
All? Clearly you didn't look at the video then. Titan, lumineth, vampire hunter and what might relate to vampires.
Rivetbull wrote: We can reasonably argue about how GW has tried to redefine and evolve slaanesh in recent years, but Slaanesh was conceived very much as the chaos god of pleasure, not excess. See below from Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness.
And the Ultramarines once had a half-Eldar Chief Librarian.
40K went through a period of rationalisation at the end of Rogue Trader, and a lot of the original concepts were changed or thrown out completely.
As much as I typically agree with you and respect you have a nuanced view on this, if it is in the fluff as a god of pleasure, that's a reasonable thing to think of him as. However where people are losing some steam on it is what it stands for has changed over the years so to say its all about sex is wrong, but to say it's not is also wrong. It's more a matter of personal taste at this point cannon is cannon and they can choose to all of a sudden say space marines are instead all biker mice from mars that doesn't however make it so to every one who played/plays the game.
Arguing it is or isn't doesn't really get any one anywhere as it is, and it isn't. I'd say though its all about just over the top amounts of anything, food, pain, pleasure, greed, etc. So if someones idea of it is all about sex, maybe it is ? Mine could be all about torture. However they choose to change or throw it out doesn't change the fact it was at one point that, they can't change history but we can choose what we enjoy most to follow with their fluff right ?
While not a particular fan of Chaos, I'd say GW is doing a rather good job with Slaanesh being sexy without being all about sex. The Keeper of Secrets is overflowing with sex appeal in a properly disturbing way. The new mortals of Slaanesh have various sexy elements, such as peacock girl on Glutos Orscollion's palanquin, while also highlighting other areas of excess like gluttony and greed. A mobile shrine to excess.
The "New Edition, New Models" video is 6 months old already and we still haven't seen anything from it revealed
We literally saw the Palatine revealed at the end of the video from "New Edition, New Models".
We saw the Death Guard character a few previews later.
Christmas Day saw the reveal of Lelith Hesperax.
The only ones not revealed in full are the Skitarii and Ork.
And isn’t the Skitarii the same or similar model from the new video.
I’m also not quite understanding people basing we are gonna have a light/terrible 2021 based on today’s tease.
As if we are getting just 7 models from that video for the next 6 months even if that was the time frame, plus prior revealed things.
I mean, maybe they still like to keep some stuff not even revealed till their preview specifically for it?
Ya know, one in March previewing all of the April stuff let’s say. And if it was teased April was Lumineth, would we thing they are just getting a single model?
And if all that pirate/zombie stuff is just Underworlds, which it could be, then we already know the slot for it.
So that’s many teases from here and rumour engine stuff all sorted with a release window.
There’s no could fill April-June with just a Knight, Lumineth, and the Witch Hunter etc.
If the knight is a Titan and Witch Hunter from a new boxed WH Quest or similar. Then are both outside of the AoS and 40k release for any given month. So there’s a lot more to fill the rest of those gaps which is left unknown (particularly when it’ll be back to weekly releases by then by all estimations, unless something else happens).
I have to say, from an aesthetic perspective, I really don't 'get' Slaanesh.
The other chaos factions seem to embody their themes pretty well. Nurgle units are bloated and diseased, Tzeentch units are warped/shifting etc.
But if I tried to guess what Slaanesh was about just by looking at their units, I'd assume s/he was the god of lobster claws, long tongues, weird body piercings, and general ugliness.
I think that is one issue, excess is hard to encapsulate within models. The Diaz era Deamonettes embodied sexuality in a big way with their bare chests and generally nice looking proportions. They were certainly made to be beautiful in their own way. They are likely how Deamonettes like to appear with their mind-tricks - when in reality they are closer to what we have now - with strangely shaped teeth and claw-pincers.
Sensuality I think is a part of Slaanesh even if its not a "core" facet its certainly part of the theme.
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah that is definitely one thing about Slaanesh I don't get: the lobster claws. Why out of all the things is that something that is always included?
Because that's what they started with.
One theme has always been that when a Deamonette is seen without their glamour, they are very alien and deadly in appearance. They could just as easily had blade arms and the like
Personally I really hope someone at GW opens the Libre Chaotica and uses a load of that concept art at some stage!
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah that is definitely one thing about Slaanesh I don't get: the lobster claws. Why out of all the things is that something that is always included?
Because it from the beginning was present, as a means to show Slaanesh and Slaanesh worshippers as having alien tastes beyond normal conventional ideas of beauty and desirability and with the claws' deadliness a nod towards sado-masochism.
Ok so I cracked open the acursed LIBRE CHAOTICA (seriously if you get a chance to own a copy get it).
Within which Slaanesh is described as a Chaos God of Pleasure.
However the author quickly goes on to clarify that whilst Slaanesh is a god of pleasure, its not purely sexual; its all kinds of pleasure in excess. Food, touch, smell, painting, art, singing.
I think that this has steadily changed from pleasure to excess because its easier to convey the multiple interpretations away form purely sexual themes when one uses the term "excess" as opposed to "pleasure". It explains why pleasurable excess is more the motif not pure pleasure nor pure excess.
So the Glutton Lord we have now isn't just into eating alone; he's into the pleasure of consumption. Each choice morsel is a delight for his pallet. He will travel far to taste the most exotic and delicately crafted foods. That these foods might well include such delicacies as "Toe of Dwarf" and "Eye of Aelf" is, well...
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah that is definitely one thing about Slaanesh I don't get: the lobster claws. Why out of all the things is that something that is always included?
Because it from the beginning was present, as a means to show Slaanesh and Slaanesh worshippers as having alien tastes beyond normal conventional ideas of beauty and desirability and with the claws' deadliness a nod towards sado-masochism.
Eh, that part I get, but why is it always a crab claw. Anyway, I do realize the real answer is "it's been there from the beginning", but still I think it odd that they keep putting it in more than the daemonettes.
Wouldn't mind seeing some different kind of body mods. Like some things with huge disgusting ears so they can hear everything. I just feel there should be more emphasis on sensory organs.
The herald of slaanesh is the type of thing that really nails slaanesh to me. It's horrific. I wish the herald playing the harp had something other than a crab claw -- what about more fingers sewn on to be able to hit more (discortand) chords? I personally would never collect body modding slaanesh stuff, as that sort of thing gives me the heebee jeebies, but I just think it's a little underused, while the crab claw is done to death. It honestly feels more Tzeench than Slaanesh.
Not a fan of the model to be honest... theres so much going on and all looks so boring to build and paint. Concept wise is not something that appeals to me and would rather see a crude version of it used for ogres armies instead.
Its one of those cases of a bundle of ideas stuck together to see if it creates some cool concept but instead its just a bunch of ideas and nothing else.
As for the lore debate well claws, pincers, extra pair of boobs, whips, sadomaso clothes and piercings are sexual and that was the majority of the ideas presented so yeah you may want to turn around decades of this but it will still be there.
NAVARRO wrote: Not a fan of the model to be honest... theres so much going on and all looks so boring to build and paint. Concept wise is not something that appeals to me and would rather see a crude version of it used for ogres armies instead.
Its one of those cases of a bundle of ideas stuck together to see if it creates some cool concept but instead its just a bunch of ideas and nothing else.
I'd definitely agree with the 'bundle of ideas stuck together' description.
The issue for me is that the guy is called the "Lord of Gluttony", yet he's bit fat and that's about it. Not only that, but he's so deformed in other ways and there's so much unnecessary crap and clutter on the model, that his being overweight at all is practically lost amongst everything else.
Especially with Slaanesh being the god of excess, would it not make more sense for the Lord of Gluttony to be excessively obese? I mean, if you're going to make an entire diorama model, why not make the guy so fat that he can't even walk on his own?
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah that is definitely one thing about Slaanesh I don't get: the lobster claws. Why out of all the things is that something that is always included?
Because it from the beginning was present, as a means to show Slaanesh and Slaanesh worshippers as having alien tastes beyond normal conventional ideas of beauty and desirability and with the claws' deadliness a nod towards sado-masochism.
Eh, that part I get, but why is it always a crab claw. Anyway, I do realize the real answer is "it's been there from the beginning", but still I think it odd that they keep putting it in more than the daemonettes.
Wouldn't mind seeing some different kind of body mods. Like some things with huge disgusting ears so they can hear everything. I just feel there should be more emphasis on sensory organs.
The herald of slaanesh is the type of thing that really nails slaanesh to me. It's horrific. I wish the herald playing the harp had something other than a crab claw -- what about more fingers sewn on to be able to hit more (discortand) chords? I personally would never collect body modding slaanesh stuff, as that sort of thing gives me the heebee jeebies, but I just think it's a little underused, while the crab claw is done to death. It honestly feels more Tzeench than Slaanesh.
The claws are just a creative short hand to unify the models across the Slaanesh range. Tzeentch has the eyes and flames motif. Nurgle has the rotting zombies, and single eye and single horn look. Khorne has the blood and skulls, generic demon look.
If you look at most of the Slaanesh art, their models tend to have all black on black eyes. That has been written as the pupls of their eyes being expanded to take in as much light as possible.
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah that is definitely one thing about Slaanesh I don't get: the lobster claws. Why out of all the things is that something that is always included?
Because it from the beginning was present, as a means to show Slaanesh and Slaanesh worshippers as having alien tastes beyond normal conventional ideas of beauty and desirability and with the claws' deadliness a nod towards sado-masochism.
S&M and 'deadliness' don't actually sit well together. It really should be something that prolongs the experience, not cuts it short. Quick and easy is missing the point.
NAVARRO wrote: Not a fan of the model to be honest... theres so much going on and all looks so boring to build and paint. Concept wise is not something that appeals to me and would rather see a crude version of it used for ogres armies instead.
Its one of those cases of a bundle of ideas stuck together to see if it creates some cool concept but instead its just a bunch of ideas and nothing else.
I'd definitely agree with the 'bundle of ideas stuck together' description.
The issue for me is that the guy is called the "Lord of Gluttony", yet he's bit fat and that's about it. Not only that, but he's so deformed in other ways and there's so much unnecessary crap and clutter on the model, that his being overweight at all is practically lost amongst everything else.
Especially with Slaanesh being the god of excess, would it not make more sense for the Lord of Gluttony to be excessively obese? I mean, if you're going to make an entire diorama model, why not make the guy so fat that he can't even walk on his own?
Greasus with Slaanesh-greeble, essentially?
Honest question; do you think the idea (Adipose Rex) behind this model was executed better by Dominar Rasheth?
Funnily enough, I was thinking of precisely that model when I commented.
It's showing it's age a little at this point, but conceptually, yes; I think it conveys the same theme a hell of a lot better.
Honestly, I think the most important thing is that the Dominar Rasheth model is so much more focussed. There's so much unnecessary clutter on the Lord of Gluttony model that the theme is practically lost.
GaroRobe wrote: Was Slaanesh every just the god(dess) of lust and sex? People make memes about it, because that's funny.
The problem is the memes tend to overwhelm and everyone just assumes that Slaanesh = Chaos God of Sex. This simply isn't true. As was mentioned above, Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Excess.
I have a somewhat unique perspective about this aspect of 40K, given that I worked on an entire book on this very subject, and to this day the 4Chan level of discourse about "LOL! Slaanesh is all about sex!" still pisses me off.
Woah, you worked on Tome of Excess? I loved that book, you did a good job with it! I still read it, even today!
vipoid wrote: Funnily enough, I was thinking of precisely that model when I commented.
It's showing it's age a little at this point, but conceptually, yes; I think it conveys the same theme a hell of a lot better.
Honestly, I think the most important thing is that the Dominar Rasheth model is so much more focussed. There's so much unnecessary clutter on the Lord of Gluttony model that the theme is practically lost.
There's so much stuff that it's excessive, yet somehow the theme is lost?
vipoid wrote: Funnily enough, I was thinking of precisely that model when I commented.
It's showing it's age a little at this point, but conceptually, yes; I think it conveys the same theme a hell of a lot better.
Honestly, I think the most important thing is that the Dominar Rasheth model is so much more focussed. There's so much unnecessary clutter on the Lord of Gluttony model that the theme is practically lost.
I think another issue might simply be that Glutos is too small; not just that he isn't fat enough, but that he's so close in size to the other characters that he kind of blends into the background of the model.
Compare him to Katakros:
Spoiler:
You can't deny that Big K is the centerpiece of his diorama, but I can't really say the same for Fatboy here.
GaroRobe wrote: Was Slaanesh every just the god(dess) of lust and sex? People make memes about it, because that's funny.
The problem is the memes tend to overwhelm and everyone just assumes that Slaanesh = Chaos God of Sex. This simply isn't true. As was mentioned above, Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Excess.
I have a somewhat unique perspective about this aspect of 40K, given that I worked on an entire book on this very subject, and to this day the 4Chan level of discourse about "LOL! Slaanesh is all about sex!" still pisses me off.
Woah, you worked on Tome of Excess? I loved that book, you did a good job with it! I still read it, even today!
As I noted in my earlier post - the roots of Slaanesh are in pleasure and in excess. It's a mix of the two. So the glutton is eating to excess, but in a pleasured way not simply mindless excess. Chances are he favours succulent morsels rather than simply a vast banquets.
As someone else said he is indeed closer to the Baron Harkonan (as envisioned in the origianl film) than, say, Pearl from Blade
vipoid wrote: Funnily enough, I was thinking of precisely that model when I commented.
It's showing it's age a little at this point, but conceptually, yes; I think it conveys the same theme a hell of a lot better.
Honestly, I think the most important thing is that the Dominar Rasheth model is so much more focussed. There's so much unnecessary clutter on the Lord of Gluttony model that the theme is practically lost.
There's so much stuff that it's excessive, yet somehow the theme is lost?
And if he was the Lord of Excess instead of the Lord of Gluttony you might have a point.
GaroRobe wrote: Was Slaanesh every just the god(dess) of lust and sex? People make memes about it, because that's funny.
The problem is the memes tend to overwhelm and everyone just assumes that Slaanesh = Chaos God of Sex. This simply isn't true. As was mentioned above, Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Excess.
I have a somewhat unique perspective about this aspect of 40K, given that I worked on an entire book on this very subject, and to this day the 4Chan level of discourse about "LOL! Slaanesh is all about sex!" still pisses me off.
HBMC, considering some of the stuff you got *wrong* about 40k Lore in some of your work, I wouldn't turn to THAT as an appeal to authority.
While Slaanesh is not 'just' about sex, the fact that we've reached the other end of the spectrum now, and are pretending that it's not about sex AT ALL is just as incorrect.
Hence, Sex, Drugs, *and* Rock&Roll.
Memes about DOOOOMRIDER aside (and there's a character to bring back!) this underlines again what I'm talking about. The Prince of Pleasure has become the Prince of Something or Other in the minds of many 40k fans.
I could see them bringing back Doomrider. He'd be a fun anniversary model, though they've never made one that large before.
Still, going back to the "Prince of Pleasure" aspect, I think the range more or less hits the mark. Glutus is indulging himself with all the finest foods that his army can find. A lot of the character models have hooks and barbs in their skin since Slaanesh warriors finding pain pleasurable has been a thing forever (best example would be the Emperor's Children CSM from the story "The Master's bidding," who would impale his tongue on his armor so that every time he moved his head, it would rip. Oh and he covered himself in mites that would constantly bite him.)
Glutus has a bong, the new armored guys and gals all have fancy bottles of liquid, and a few models have weird censers, which I imagine have perfume like smoke to cloud the heads of enemies and maybe cause them to hallucinate.
As for the sensual side, the underworld team and the archers are pretty suggestive. Belly-dancers with bows, basically.
If any Chaos army doesn't fit their theme, I'd say Tzeentch is furthest from his army, visually. Acolytes are all super buff instead of spindly (yeah, they're supposed to change their shape, but still), pink horrors don't look like they're changing shape constantly (the old Juan Diaz models are so much better imo), etc.
I agree with Garo, So... when it comes to the sex aspect are we all just ignoring the Blissbarb archers? Because it's far more useful to your argument? Also I think sex is the first thing a common slaanesh follower will burn out from.
What I like about the Slaanesh release is that it explores a wide range, the sensuality/sex within the Blissbarb archers, Martial Perfection in the Myrmdesh and those who fall to pure excess in all forms again aka the Symbaresh. The mounted models more or less are Blissbarb Archers who have essentially grown out of their old pursuits.
You then got extreme vanity in Sigvald and now we have a gluttony lord.
Slaanesh is the god of pleasure and excess, the two go hand in hand. Excess with out pleasure is a nonsense, the whole point of the excess is pleasure and the epitome of pleasure has always been the climax, the orgasm. It’s the peak moment and that is what slaanesh so lowers have always sought. Be it pain or excess noise or violence it’s all about pleasure, taken to excess, pleasure at all costs.
The new models have a nod to that, the Lord of glutton eaten the finest foods what ever they are isn’t about eating anything to excess but eating the most pleasurable things to excess.
The model is dripping in detail and all slaanesh models should be. There is no less is more.
So much of what the chaos gods are and represent now is missed by too many folk. They are manifestations of emotions. Slaanesh is the manifestation of pleasure, that selfish urge to attain that pleasurable release and the point of ecstasy. Sexual is the natural conclusion of any pleasure seeking because that point of climax is the goal, it’s the ultimate, any pleasure that great can only be likened to sexual pleasure.
Andykp wrote: Slaanesh is the god of pleasure and excess, the two go hand in hand. Excess with out pleasure is a nonsense, the whole point of the excess is pleasure and the epitome of pleasure has always been the climax, the orgasm. It’s the peak moment and that is what slaanesh so lowers have always sought. Be it pain or excess noise or violence it’s all about pleasure, taken to excess, pleasure at all costs.
The new models have a nod to that, the Lord of glutton eaten the finest foods what ever they are isn’t about eating anything to excess but eating the most pleasurable things to excess.
The model is dripping in detail and all slaanesh models should be. There is no less is more.
So much of what the chaos gods are and represent now is missed by too many folk. They are manifestations of emotions. Slaanesh is the manifestation of pleasure, that selfish urge to attain that pleasurable release and the point of ecstasy. Sexual is the natural conclusion of any pleasure seeking because that point of climax is the goal, it’s the ultimate, any pleasure that great can only be likened to sexual pleasure.
Andykp wrote: Slaanesh is the god of pleasure and excess, the two go hand in hand. Excess with out pleasure is a nonsense, the whole point of the excess is pleasure and the epitome of pleasure has always been the climax, the orgasm. It’s the peak moment and that is what slaanesh so lowers have always sought. Be it pain or excess noise or violence it’s all about pleasure, taken to excess, pleasure at all costs.
The new models have a nod to that, the Lord of glutton eaten the finest foods what ever they are isn’t about eating anything to excess but eating the most pleasurable things to excess.
The model is dripping in detail and all slaanesh models should be. There is no less is more.
So much of what the chaos gods are and represent now is missed by too many folk. They are manifestations of emotions. Slaanesh is the manifestation of pleasure, that selfish urge to attain that pleasurable release and the point of ecstasy. Sexual is the natural conclusion of any pleasure seeking because that point of climax is the goal, it’s the ultimate, any pleasure that great can only be likened to sexual pleasure.
Cheers. Not sure it wouldn’t come across as wine fuelled drivel.
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah that is definitely one thing about Slaanesh I don't get: the lobster claws. Why out of all the things is that something that is always included?
Because it from the beginning was present, as a means to show Slaanesh and Slaanesh worshippers as having alien tastes beyond normal conventional ideas of beauty and desirability and with the claws' deadliness a nod towards sado-masochism.
S&M and 'deadliness' don't actually sit well together. It really should be something that prolongs the experience, not cuts it short. Quick and easy is missing the point.
Slaanesh's "thing" seems to fall into 2 broad themes IMO:
1) There is the toying with the prey and prolonging the agony.
2) There is giving them such an extreme experience they die quickly but they have an unforgettable experience and orgasmic death (or so the Slaanesh worshipper might want for themselves. A normal person might simply view it as an agonizing albeit quick death).
That is why for example some Slaanesh worshippers in the BL fiction look forward to their deaths as supposedly the ecstatic culmination of their existence, even though logically one could argue that if they stayed alive they could have more experiences.
Because it exists as a single enclosed entity. The other diorama characters are all walking in a setting. In this case they're all riding on the same massive vehicle. Makes it more cohesive.
You kinda ruined it for me, just likethose things ruined Warmahordes...
Premium prices and delivering subpar casting and materials is what ruined for me. The big fellas could be ignored if you don't fancy them I guess.
Same reason I totally did not buy any finecasts.
But nobody wants to speculate on these images of undeads and the witch hunters what it could be?
New heroquest? new armies? warcry bands?
I need to know!
I think the problem is those debates started before December and were fuelled through the whole of the advent period with debate. People are burned out on guessing now and just want the answers before they get too far down the rabbithole of speculation.
Slaanesh has a problem. Why? Well, he has pleasure in his portfolio but none of his models, with the exception of the blonde chaos warrior with the mirror shield, can be described as being attractive. This is an epic fail.
Some posters said GW can't get away with SM models now because of today's cancel culture. I have to disagree. The Wracks of the Dark Eldar line resemble the demons from the Hellraiser horror movies. So GW can do it, if they want to but they decided to give Slaanesh a new trait instead:
Strg Alt wrote: Slaanesh has a problem. Why? Well, he has pleasure in his portfolio but none of his models, with the exception of the blonde chaos warrior with the mirror shield, can be described as being attractive. This is an epic fail.
Some posters said GW can't get away with SM models now because of today's cancel culture. I have to disagree. The Wracks of the Dark Eldar line resemble the demons from the Hellraiser horror movies. So GW can do it, if they want to but they decided to give Slaanesh a new trait instead:
Most hideous of all the four major powers.
Well you don't have to be good looking to have, recieve or give pleasure? Alot of their alure was supposed to be mind tricks and musk - but I think there is room for both
The old Diaz models also did cover this re Daemonettes but be cool to haeva few more
The point with Slaanesh demons at least is that the beauty, as humans understand it, is a glamour. A trick produced by the warp, musk and mind tricks they play. Part of the horror of them is having your mind fogged with devious thoughts; with a primal scent that urges you to want them, to desire them.
A haze that makes you see them as you envision beauty to be when in reality they have very alien features.
I'd say the Diaz forms are closer to the musk haze that they project on the living from a human perspective; whilst the current forms are closer to their "true" demonic shapes, at least so much as our minds can resolve without going insane.
Hmm. The point ever since the Realms of Darkness books is that Slaanesh creatures are meant to seem attractive while actually being monstrous - that's a fairly complicated (impossible?) thing to capture in a mini, and I think the current range is doing this quite well. There might be a couple of Kingdom Death minis that pull this off better (I don't mean the NSFW aspects, rather that they're both pretty and horrible) but then KD has a completely different style in general.
In the end, I think the new range is the most convincing attempt on Slaanesh yet - I love ye olde '2000AD meets Hieronymus Bosch meets teenage attempts at Metal covers' style from the RoD books, but it seems the least suitable for Slaanesh, somehow.
The new Slaanesh models look good except for the diorama. I agree with all the comments about it just being a bunch of stuff thrown at a wall to see if anything sticks (result: it doesn't).
There is no coherent theme to the miniature, and the main dude just looks dumb. The peacock lady is the only visually interesting element on the model, and even she is boring except for the peacock eyes.
yukishiro1 wrote: The new Slaanesh models look good except for the diorama. I agree with all the comments about it just being a bunch of stuff thrown at a wall to see if anything sticks (result: it doesn't).
There is no coherent theme to the miniature, and the main dude just looks dumb. The peacock lady is the only visually interesting element on the model, and even she is boring except for the peacock eyes.
Most of those critiques are objectively wrong though. Why not just say "I don't like the way it looks"? Taste is subjective so it's not like you have to justify it.
Obviously I'm quoting you yukishiro but I mean it as a more general point.
I think the diorama models in general get that "too busy for a warzone" type feel from many. They feel "wrong" especially when 40K and AoS are visually more skirmish games - even with big 2K armies its still more a skirmish than a vast army with thousands of warriors where diorama models would feel more at home.
They are models that would fit into a turn based strategy game like Total War (not real time) where you commanded vast legions - rather than a centre stage model in a small skirmish battle.
I think also some are far too static a pose - Katakross gets that impression of static design; at least the Slaanesh one is mobile by design and thus feels like he can at least practically move around a battlefield (though being a mage I'd wait and see the irony that he likely prefers being at the back of the army )
They are all also very different styles of model from most we get in wargames. I think many are used to quite uniform "units" that appear very visually similar to each other; a uniform style. These units are quite unique and a little odd in that they not only have no unifying design within them, but often have models that don't unify with the rest of the army either.
This isn't a demonette and chosen one standing beside a unique leader; its a team of unique styled models all together. I get that idea that its a "jumble" because in a way it is. Yet at the same time its representing something different; more of the back end of the army. The "support" side of cooks and cleaners and servers and such. Something that in wargames I think only appears in 6-15mm historical games - the waggon trail; the tents; the encampment. Something which in 40K and AoS and Old World is often overlooked and forgotten not just in models but also in the lore and stories.
yukishiro1 wrote: The new Slaanesh models look good except for the diorama. I agree with all the comments about it just being a bunch of stuff thrown at a wall to see if anything sticks (result: it doesn't).
There is no coherent theme to the miniature, and the main dude just looks dumb. The peacock lady is the only visually interesting element on the model, and even she is boring except for the peacock eyes.
Most of those critiques are objectively wrong though. Why not just say "I don't like the way it looks"? Taste is subjective so it's not like you have to justify it.
Obviously I'm quoting you yukishiro but I mean it as a more general point.
You seem to have contradicted yourself here. If taste is subjective, how are their comments about how the model doesn't work for them "objectively wrong?"
Overread wrote: The point with Slaanesh demons at least is that the beauty, as humans understand it, is a glamour. A trick produced by the warp, musk and mind tricks they play. Part of the horror of them is having your mind fogged with devious thoughts; with a primal scent that urges you to want them, to desire them.
A haze that makes you see them as you envision beauty to be when in reality they have very alien features.
I'd say the Diaz forms are closer to the musk haze that they project on the living from a human perspective; whilst the current forms are closer to their "true" demonic shapes, at least so much as our minds can resolve without going insane.
That may be the case but at the end of the day miniatures find their place in a collector's glass cabinet with the exception of hideous designs.
Overread wrote: The point with Slaanesh demons at least is that the beauty, as humans understand it, is a glamour. A trick produced by the warp, musk and mind tricks they play. Part of the horror of them is having your mind fogged with devious thoughts; with a primal scent that urges you to want them, to desire them.
A haze that makes you see them as you envision beauty to be when in reality they have very alien features.
I'd say the Diaz forms are closer to the musk haze that they project on the living from a human perspective; whilst the current forms are closer to their "true" demonic shapes, at least so much as our minds can resolve without going insane.
That may be the case but at the end of the day miniatures find their place in a collector's glass cabinet with the exception of hideous designs.
Aye but then it comes down to individual taste.
Heck whilst I admit that marines and orks are fine models in their own right I'd never build an army of either for 40K
Overread wrote: The point with Slaanesh demons at least is that the beauty, as humans understand it, is a glamour. A trick produced by the warp, musk and mind tricks they play. Part of the horror of them is having your mind fogged with devious thoughts; with a primal scent that urges you to want them, to desire them.
I thought Daemonettes at least were supposed to have a daemonic beauty to start with, and their glamour just made them supernaturally so? Or made their enemies forget everything else.
Regardless, I think the issue is that the current models really don't bring the glamour element across at all. There's literally nothing in the models themselves to suggest that they're using any sort of glamour to appear more beautiful than they actually are. So all we're left with is a bunch of exceptionally ugly models and fluff that says "No, honestly, they appear really beautiful. Trust us, they look enchanting and everything. Pity you can't see it."
Why would they want to appear beautiful on the battlefield? They're not trying to beguile or seduce, they've dropped that to rip your heart out. You know, the glamour has ended.
Overread wrote: The point with Slaanesh demons at least is that the beauty, as humans understand it, is a glamour. A trick produced by the warp, musk and mind tricks they play. Part of the horror of them is having your mind fogged with devious thoughts; with a primal scent that urges you to want them, to desire them.
There's literally nothing in the models themselves to suggest that they're using any sort of glamour to appear more beautiful than they actually are. So all we're left with is a bunch of exceptionally ugly models and fluff that says "No, honestly, they appear really beautiful. Trust us, they look enchanting and everything. Pity you can't see it."
This is my biggest issue with Flesh Eater Courts. They're supposed to believe they're knights and nobles, but literally, none of their range reflects this. Even the newer Underworld teams looks like an average pack of ghouls, with only one "clad" in bone armor. I don't like the sculpts for Daemonettes, but I guess they're okay. They're noticeably female, but where they suffer is a lack of movement. They're not dancing or prancing, all of them have their feet on the ground. If they were a bit more dynamic, then maybe they'd look better.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Why would they want to appear beautiful on the battlefield? They're not trying to beguile or seduce, they've dropped that to rip your heart out. You know, the glamour has ended.
Battle is just another way to experience sensation for Slaanesh followers (and daemons). It would go contrary to their very being if they were like "ok well now it's time to fight, let's get serious and stop it with this glamour nonsense!"
It's also inconsistent with how the models used to be depicted, which is a large part of why people don't like it.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Why would they want to appear beautiful on the battlefield? They're not trying to beguile or seduce, they've dropped that to rip your heart out. You know, the glamour has ended.
For the confusion, the experience, the sensation, of course. Numerous novels and short stories have captured this well- Slaanesh daemons, worshippers and armies are a revel of confusion, beguilement and slaughter on the battlefield.
They don't drop the glamor in battle, they take absolute advantage of it.
GaroRobe wrote:This is my biggest issue with Flesh Eater Courts. They're supposed to believe they're knights and nobles, but literally, none of their range reflects this.
Well...
a) of course not. That's not what those models were designed as, so it isn't a surprise that they don't match the force-fed background. Though the Underworld band doesn't have this excuse.
b) even when they were new, the plastic ghouls were terrible models. They look like mutant orcs (the equivalent of the post-apoc goblins under the mountains in the Hobbit), rather than cannibals lost in their hunger and dark magic. The old metals are still far superior sculpts.
---
Also, woo. Another dead week for releases. Time to scratch off the 16th. Maybe something will actually come out on the 23rd of January?
Yeah. I get that FEC were just repurposed crypt ghouls, but they chose to give them lore that, although cool, doesn't fit the range. And my biggest gripe is with the underworld models, since they did have a chance to reflect the lore.
Off-topic, but wasn't the new store anniversary model supposed to be revealed already? They posted today that we'd see it this week, but I thought they said the same thing LAST week. :/
The FEC lore is cool enough to merit a resculpt. I'd be all in if they had them acting noble dressed in what they think are shining plate and fine robes but are actually flayed flesh and bones.
I never understood their names though. Shouldn't they be more regal than ghoulish?
The Archregent came out in 2019, and given its place at the very top of the nobility pyramid, really should have been a chance for GW to do something interesting. Unfortunately, it looks just like all the other FEC junk.
I don't think any other AOS faction has such a combination of interesting, promising lore and utterly boring, derivative models.
This is my biggest issue with Flesh Eater Courts. They're supposed to believe they're knights and nobles, but literally, none of their range reflects this. Even the newer Underworld teams looks like an average pack of ghouls, with only one "clad" in bone armor.
It's certainly rather odd that these "knights" attack with claws, rather than held weapons.
My biggest issue with FEC is they haven't done a plastic Varghulf. One of the coolest creatures they have (especially how it looks in total war). I've been hoping for a new kit for years but GW can't be bothered.
Thargrim wrote: My biggest issue with FEC is they haven't done a plastic Varghulf. One of the coolest creatures they have (especially how it looks in total war). I've been hoping for a new kit for years but GW can't be bothered.
I wholeheartedly agree. It's the only resin kit remaining in the entire line and it is kinda pathetic that they haven't decided to switch it out for a plastic one. Have 2 of the resin ones painted and I'd love to have a plastic one.
This is my biggest issue with Flesh Eater Courts. They're supposed to believe they're knights and nobles, but literally, none of their range reflects this. Even the newer Underworld teams looks like an average pack of ghouls, with only one "clad" in bone armor.
It's certainly rather odd that these "knights" attack with claws, rather than held weapons.
Its kind of the point - they think they are using weapons even when they don't. Same as the Zombie Dragons etc areglorious steeds of light and beauty etc.
I am sure (hopes) some one has made a FEC army that embodies more of what they believe - maybe?
The stories really read well when you have both sides - esepcially sicne their lovely speeches are usually just growls and roars eg:
A monstrous white giant clad only in tatters of skin, whose mouth has rows of shark-like teeth usually adorned with chunks of gristle.
and thinks he says the following:
The time of the eternal harvest is upon us. We have won through the time of strife, found the promised era, and all the while we did not forsake our ideals. Not even when times seemed so dark we were rendered blind. Now we see again, and all we need do is feast! Hunt and feast forever more!
but its all just gorwling and roars to those not infected.
Its also fun that they normally see right through Idoneth illusions.
AoS went through (and isn’t entirely finished with) a period of rationalising existing WHFB stuff into the new setting. Flesh Eater Courts are a good example of this, as their releases (I’m sure they’re on their second book?) have pretty much been the requisite Endless Spells, Terrain piece and a single plastic character, married to a new and evidentially well received and regarded background.
In terms of the rationalisation project, it’s pretty low cost, low risk as few new models are needed. Given FEC captured the imagination out of the gate, I am surprised they didn’t get more resources spent on them, and a plastic Varghulf (model is easily 15 years old) should be high on the list of priorities. It’s a solid unit, with a great background, and an outdated sculpt in a poor material.
From a finance point FEC are terrible for GW right now as almost every model is in the start collecting set. They are a prime candidate for a big update to at least give GW some more profit earners for them.
Taht and I'm sure many FEC players would love variety that isn't just swapping one or two bits on multi-part kits around.
I think we will see an FEC redo down the line where they get the night haunt or DOK treatment where they are expanded upon.
FEC are now firmly entrenched as an army for AOS, it should reflect that.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think we will see an FEC redo down the line where they get the night haunt or DOK treatment where they are expanded upon.
FEC are now firmly entrenched as an army for AOS, it should reflect that.
Eh I don't think DoK have yet had the treatment. Since launch they've only had added:
1) Underworld Warband - which honestly is one of the best in how GW has balanced the rules. Basically one unique leader with a retinue of guards who share a single profile. So instead of 5 or so "character" like units you've got 1 and a retinue which is much more sensible to manage in the wargame side of things
2) Warcry warband - which are a great addition, though strike me as a heavier hitting Khinerai unit. If Khinerai are a threat/distraction then Shadowstalkers are a blade that cuts and slices. Plus with constant shadow jumping they can remain a highly mobile thread. Note technically this unit hasn't had its AoS style army pack released (the chaos warbands all ahve two sets - one with 1 sprue and cards for warcry; one with 2 sprue sets and no cards, for AoS main).
3) One new generic snake leader.
They still don't have a terrain feature nor endless spells. I'd also argue that there's huge gaps in the army - things like general cavalry; artillery; a big monster unit that isn't Morathi etc... Lots of other ideas could easily be added. I did wonder if GW was going to do what they'd done with Legions of Nagash and they are sort of teasing in how they are moving some elements around, but it seems that the other Dark Elf models are remaining part of Cities of Sigmar (which is neat because whilst adding them in would bulk out the army, it would lose its "female dominated" angle quite quickly).
DoK are getting the "drip feed" treatment which means a few new things here and there to keep interest up, but no big second wave of models all in one big go.
GW can do both, some armies will get a big second wave and have a big update all in one go; others will get drip fed updates and might in the end end up with a big addition of models, just spread out over time instead of in big lumps. Both approaches are sound methods to expand armies.
They've been expanded on though. The flying unit, snake units, Morathi are all AoS additions. FEC is still WHFB kits other than a small hero and Underworlds warband and non unit 2.0 terrain/spells
Eldarain wrote: They've been expanded on though. The flying unit, snake units, Morathi are all AoS additions. FEC is still WHFB kits other than a small hero and Underworlds warband and non unit 2.0 terrain/spells
Oh true FEC got only 1 new model since AoS started. Granted that's the same story for Skaven too (though they didn't do too badly out of End Times) and has Seraphon had anything? Suffice it to say AoS is full of tiny armies that need lots and big armies with lots of legacy models that need an overhaul (heck Skaven still has metals)
Definitely true. And a bit more understandable to me on the Fantasy side of things as they prioritize getting the new ranges out.
Will be very interesting to see what route they take from here. I know they rely on new kits for sales which is why new things tend to outpace resculpts. I'd like to see a compromise approach taken where they put out new units that fill the roles of those old metals/finecast products.
vipoid wrote: Funnily enough, I was thinking of precisely that model when I commented.
It's showing it's age a little at this point, but conceptually, yes; I think it conveys the same theme a hell of a lot better.
Honestly, I think the most important thing is that the Dominar Rasheth model is so much more focussed. There's so much unnecessary clutter on the Lord of Gluttony model that the theme is practically lost.
I think another issue might simply be that Glutos is too small; not just that he isn't fat enough, but that he's so close in size to the other characters that he kind of blends into the background of the model.
Compare him to Katakros:
Spoiler:
You can't deny that Big K is the centerpiece of his diorama, but I can't really say the same for Fatboy here.
Honestly that's the main reason it's an appealing model. It's a centerpiece, but it's not yet another towering "I'm a hero, so I'm physically larger than everyone else" affair. If you wanted to(and I do), you could even make a much more understated "fatty Lord on a chariot/litter" type model and have several cool regular miniatures left over to integrate into your army as characters.
Honestly that's the main reason it's an appealing model. It's a centerpiece, but it's not yet another towering "I'm a hero, so I'm physically larger than everyone else" affair. If you wanted to(and I do), you could even make a much more understated "fatty Lord on a chariot/litter" type model and have several cool regular miniatures left over to integrate into your army as characters.
See, I partially agree with you.
I fully agree that powerful and important characters shouldn't need to be vastly larger than other characters in order to be powerful and important.
However, for me this applies not only to the actual character but also to their model as a whole. A powerful/important character shouldn't need to be bigger than other characters but nor should they need an entire diorama to show how important they are.
I miss the days when Vampire Counts could be among the most powerful and important models in the game, yet be merely the size of regular infantry/cavalry. Nowadays, vampires can only be powerful if they have massive mounts glued to their backsides.
I don't think the size of the model is necessarily to show importance, but because so many battlefields tend to look painfully boring and including so much scenery on bases tends to offer alot of pop and flavor.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I don't think the size of the model is necessarily to show importance, but because so many battlefields tend to look painfully boring and including so much scenery on bases tends to offer alot of pop and flavor.
Personally, I thought battlefields looked a lot more interesting when they resembled historic formations with fantasy elements.
Each to their own, of course, but I'm afraid battlefields that look like two people who spilled lego all over their dinner plates and are in the process of exchanging them doesn't really appeal to me.
I really like the new slaanesh models, especially the mortals on the steeds, but the hero on the palanquin is pretty amazing too. Going to be wonderful to paint. I think one guy in my club is already game on to collect these when they come out. A bunch of us are all starting new AoS Armies.
I think its more a problem of no focus point and bad design angles overall.
The way I see it, and not repeating again the muddled concept of this mini, the breaking point IMO is that the main focal point ( and all projects need one) ( and no don't tell me that the focus point is the full piece, thats not how it works) simply is lost.
So the main guy regarding of big or small is stuck inside a walking palace and in front of him theres other miniatures... he has not many good angles to be seen in its full glory, from the top theres the palace and from the front other minis. You can only see him if its in isometric view XD
Not only he is not to focus point he is totally lost in the middle of so many random features. So what does remain from this diorama? Peacock lady with nice rack but man face
Carlovonsexron wrote: I don't think the size of the model is necessarily to show importance, but because so many battlefields tend to look painfully boring and including so much scenery on bases tends to offer alot of pop and flavor.
Personally, I thought battlefields looked a lot more interesting when they resembled historic formations with fantasy elements.
Each to their own, of course, but I'm afraid battlefields that look like two people who spilled lego all over their dinner plates and are in the process of exchanging them doesn't really appeal to me.
I think you're playing the wrong game!
To be fair, I larelgy agree with you- but my perfect game would essentially be set in the Hyborian era but with kits still made by GW (so high on historical fantasy, low on most high fantasy elements- and that's how my own hobby tends to be)
That said, within the world of GW there isnt alot of varience of terrain if you're using just GW stuff, which they are certainly pushing. That being the case, might as well shove some more in via the big models.
Not only he is not to focus point he is totally lost in the middle of so many random features.
Yeah, this is it. Compare to the catacomb command barge, for example.
It also doesn't help that he's lounging in the shadows not really doing anything, while all the other elements of the model are in more dynamic poses. It probably would have worked better to remove the top, raise the platform he's on, and have him partially reclined on a couch eating food at the highest, most central point on the model.
Well, I'm not actually playing at all at the moment.
You're right, though, I'm basically a holdover from the days of WHFB. I've held onto my Vampire Counts army and would like to try out some games with Nagash/FEC at some point, but I've yet to buy into AoS in any meaningful capacity (save for some Sylvaneth stuff, which I've used exclusively for Drukhari conversions ). However, I strongly suspect that I simply won't enjoy playing Nagash due to how things have changed (with my beloved Vampire Lords now being barely tougher than regular, human mages, and everything apparently revolving around stupidly-overdesigned centrepiece models).
I'm keeping an eye on releases, in case I see something that makes me want to buy into AoS. As it stands, though, there's just been something about the aesthetic and general trend that I find off-putting. The only model I've been tempted by so far is the Abhorrant Archregent.
Other than that, I'm mostly waiting to see how they handle Dark Elves (if and when they can be arsed doing them at all).
As far as Slaanesh goes, I like a lot of the mechanics but I just can't stand the models.
To be fair, I larelgy agree with you- but my perfect game would essentially be set in the Hyborian era but with kits still made by GW (so high on historical fantasy, low on most high fantasy elements- and that's how my own hobby tends to be)
I think I'm probably fairly similar. I definitely lean more towards preferring less high-fantasy stuff.
Most of the "showcase models" really aren't all that great. There's a few notable exceptions(Teclis and Nagash) but things like the Celestant-Prime, Eidolons, etc are not really "must haves".
Also, if you're wanting to see what they do with Dark Elves? Broken Realms: Morathi. They're basically 100% returned to form with their new Cities of Sigmar setup.
Kanluwen wrote: Most of the "showcase models" really aren't all that great. There's a few notable exceptions(Teclis and Nagash) but things like the Celestant-Prime, Eidolons, etc are not really "must haves".
Also, if you're wanting to see what they do with Dark Elves? Broken Realms: Morathi. They're basically 100% returned to form with their new Cities of Sigmar setup.
Are these the rules with the new city that gets no spells?
Kanluwen wrote: Most of the "showcase models" really aren't all that great. There's a few notable exceptions(Teclis and Nagash) but things like the Celestant-Prime, Eidolons, etc are not really "must haves".
Also, if you're wanting to see what they do with Dark Elves? Broken Realms: Morathi. They're basically 100% returned to form with their new Cities of Sigmar setup.
Are these the rules with the new city that gets no spells?
Har Kuron is the 'return to form' for Dark Elves. Which also gets a full-on spell lore.
You can only take Darkling Covens(Sorceresses, Warrior variants, Black Guard, and Executioners), Order Serpentis(Dreadlords, Cold One Knights, War Hydras, Cold One Chariots), Scourge Privateers(Fleetmaster, Kharibdyss, Black Ark Corsairs, Scourgerunner Chariots), and Shadowblades(Assassins, Shadow Warriors, and Dark Riders). You can then also have 1 in 4 of your units be a Daughter of Khaine unit, gaining the Cities of Sigmar and Har Kuron keywords, and one of your Daughter of Khaine Priests can also cast a special prayer.
Misthavn, the other new city receives no spells but has the Narcotics and the Shadowstrike stuff which is not exactly small.
Personally, I thought battlefields looked a lot more interesting when they resembled historic formations with fantasy elements.
Each to their own, of course, but I'm afraid battlefields that look like two people who spilled lego all over their dinner plates and are in the process of exchanging them doesn't really appeal to me.
In AoS, I think you still can. In some respects I agree with you. Much of my AoS deployment and strategy are based very much off my Seven Years War/Napoleonic (the further back I went in historicals) gaming. I probably field longer ranks and thinner files because of that, but at the same time I still want to prevent outflanking. AoS doesn't provide a numerical bonus to doing so, but it still provides more frontage for attacks and less mobility for retreat (teleporting and flying notwithstanding).
I think in a lot of ways AoS provides a more honest approach to rank and file battling. You still have to maneuver, but no longer just tagging a side of an enemy formation leads to X and with +X bonus because of flanking/rear attack. Player also is in full control of the rank and file of their units, which I don't know how WHFB did it, but a cpouple games I played basically said this size and shape of ______ unit. Now I get to decide if I want go super thin (and risk losing nearly half of them if the opponent can pick which model to remove as an ability) or blob up.
I won't lie. Pile in and the micromanaging of combat movement is a pain in AoS. I am not so bothered by units getting intermixes (I assume what you mean by pile of Legos) as that is likely want is going to happen once armies start clashing in CQC. However, for a relatively straight forward and simple game AoS really gets nitpicky here and it becomes oh so important.
It probably is no wonder that my two AoS army are Slaves to Darkness and Lumineth Realm Lords. Both offer (and I think encourage) very traditional rank and file game play to the player. The first spoiler as the first time I actually won a game of AoS with basically nothing but Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights (the spawn were a waste). The largest model I fielded was my Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (big lizard creature). That game I went for a denied flank going heavy on the side where I put all my Chaos Knights. The Warriors took the center of the field and stymied the enemy allowing my cavalry to rotate around gaining both the flank and rear allowing me to fully control that side of the battlefield in classic denied flank style.
The second spoiler is much of the same army just in a more traditional cavalry on the flanks (except my Varangaurd which was positioned to fight Fyreslayers) and infantry in the center. Again also a victory as my Chaos Warriors formed square (literally) on the static objectives. While my cavalry charged side objectives getting to them before my opponent could manage to place any resistance. That game was a blow out with me capturing all six objectives by turn two.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Yes, Age of Sigmar has some big, nice centerpiece units. They aren't at all needed to be in an army to play. Until I finally build and paint Archaon (which is more for display than game use for me), the biggest model I or S2S have is the Chaos Shrine from WHFB. Also, while this can most certainly change, big models tend to NOT be very good in AoS. They cost too many points, don't deliver enough damage/are resilient enough and usually can't capture objectives as well.
I am not going to say that AoS will fulfill your rank and file itch. It does for me, but I also only kinda like that type of game. What I will say is even if AoS is skirmish-styled (read: each model individually based), that doesn't mean a player can't have their army act in a manner similar to rank and file. I don't even think a player suffers from trying to do that. Even in AoS, it seems like a logical way of wielding large formations of troops.
Har Kuron is the 'return to form' for Dark Elves. Which also gets a full-on spell lore.
You can only take Darkling Covens(Sorceresses, Warrior variants, Black Guard, and Executioners), Order Serpentis(Dreadlords, Cold One Knights, War Hydras, Cold One Chariots), Scourge Privateers(Fleetmaster, Kharibdyss, Black Ark Corsairs, Scourgerunner Chariots), and Shadowblades(Assassins, Shadow Warriors, and Dark Riders). You can then also have 1 in 4 of your units be a Daughter of Khaine unit, gaining the Cities of Sigmar and Har Kuron keywords, and one of your Daughter of Khaine Priests can also cast a special prayer.
I think those pictures of an AoS 'battlefield' are helping make his point.
What do you mean? The fact that it isn't an open field? I don't understand.
Well, for one, the battlefield itself. It looks like a playground sandbox (the brown textured paint inside 2x4s does not help) with a few bits of ruins stuck in it randomly- not at all like a historical battlefield.
Its honestly more an 'open field' than anything else- at least in the part of the battlefield that looks like it will actually get used.
Then the 'armies' themselves:
50-60 guys in a line across the entire battlefield facing off against a blob of some toy boats and a giant lizard.
I think those pictures of an AoS 'battlefield' are helping make his point.
What do you mean? The fact that it isn't an open field? I don't understand.
I think he might be referring to your opponent's "army".
Nevertheless, I appreciate your input and pictures. It's nice to see an example of something closer to a traditional army.
Can't control what your opponent fields. Only what you do. As I mentioned, currently most big models aren't that great. Those big centerpiece models in that Kharadon Overlord with Fyreslayers didn't do my opponent any favors against my army. My 15 Chaos Warriors and Chaos Lord on foot brought down the Magmadroth relatively quickly since it was over extended, and I don't remember that big boat doing much anything except lookin' pretty.
I think those pictures of an AoS 'battlefield' are helping make his point.
What do you mean? The fact that it isn't an open field? I don't understand.
Well, for one, the battlefield itself. It looks like a playground sandbox (the brown textured paint inside 2x4s does not help) with a few bits of ruins stuck in it randomly- not at all like a historical battlefield.
Its honestly more an 'open field' than anything else- at least in the part of the battlefield that looks like it will actually get used.
Then the 'armies' themselves:
50-60 guys in a line across the entire battlefield facing off against a blob of some toy boats and a giant lizard.
Well I will apologize. I don't have a whole lot of fantasy terrain. Basically the Warcry starter and that Khorne alter. Nor does the store I play at have much terrain. They mostly host 40k games, and as such don't have a huge selection. I thought I did an okay job creating a Chaos ravaged land with the resources available to me. I am glad to get feedback that I need to work on the presentation more.
Next time, I get a chance I will make sure to bring something like my Battle of the Bulge terrain set or Autumn in France/Germany set from by WWII games. I think they look a little pedestrian for fantasy especially Age of Sigmar. But I don't wish to offend again. I'll try and remember to PM you when I get the chance to play game with that to see if you approve. I can't do anything about the 2'x4' table border that's just how the tables are built where I play. I thought they were at least serviceable. You must have a much nicer place you game at clearly.
I don't think he was criticizing your battlefield on a technical level. He was using it to illustrate what someone else said about how AOS games look, which is to say, not much like WHFB or other games that use massed ranks and formations.
I'm not sure how important the point is overall, but it does seem to check out on its own terms.
AOS seems to usually have a bunch of round or square blobby useless terrain pieces that mostly just sit there not doing anything except maybe making you roll every turn to see if you get a 6 and they do D3 something to nearby units. It feels vastly underutilized rule-wise compared to 40k, where terrain is much more important and consequential.
No matter the game, even in historic games, you have beginners who try to do their best with what they have.
I'm not sure how 'shaming beginners' got (theoretically) involved in this.
The posted pictures didn't match up well to vipoid's stated preference for interesting battlefields with fantastical historic formations. It looked like a public space (all the sale racks in the background) with planet bowling ball tournament-style terrain. The end.
Eldarain wrote: They've been expanded on though. The flying unit, snake units, Morathi are all AoS additions. FEC is still WHFB kits other than a small hero and Underworlds warband and non unit 2.0 terrain/spells
Oh true FEC got only 1 new model since AoS started. Granted that's the same story for Skaven too (though they didn't do too badly out of End Times) and has Seraphon had anything? Suffice it to say AoS is full of tiny armies that need lots and big armies with lots of legacy models that need an overhaul (heck Skaven still has metals)
Skaven and Seraphon where already full armies in fantasy, so they don't need new units(granded some models are in need of replacement). Where FEC was a small portion of a fantasy army, same goes for dok
yukishiro1 wrote: AOS seems to usually have a bunch of round or square blobby useless terrain pieces that mostly just sit there not doing anything except maybe making you roll every turn to see if you get a 6 and they do D3 something to nearby units. It feels vastly underutilized rule-wise compared to 40k, where terrain is much more important and consequential.
Interestingly enough my games of AoS 1st ed (the game without terrain rules) had better and actually meaningful terrain than my games of 40k 8th ed (the game with quasi-terrain rules that basically equated to no terrain rules) even though my local store had a noticeably better selection of 40k than fantasy terrain.
I don't think GW does terrain rules very well these days, but at least in AoS (at the time, in my games at least) had the advantage that you needed to move around and couldn't just obliterate the enemy army out of your deployment zone. Which made even the crudest movement blockers feel like a meaningful addition to the table compared to what 40k had to offer.
In general I'd like to see more and more meaningful and diverse terrain rules for GW games, though, to facilitate interaction between the board and the armies on it. That aspect felt sorely lacking to me in the recent past, even compared to the more empty battlefields of Warhammer Fantasy.
AOS also naturally just needs less terrain. When guns with greater than 24" range are rare, terrain primarily dictates where your models can move, which means smaller, scenic pieces tend to be just as good as big giant blocks and rocks.
In 40k you're required to fight every battle in a massive shipping crate yard in order to have any semblance of gameplay.
The fact that terrain in AOS does nothing to stop ranged attacks is the fundamental problem with it, honestly. Nothing blocks LOS effectively*, so ranged armies have a field day. It's no coincidence that right now in AOS the strongest lists are almost all ranged. The terrain might as well not be there when it comes to protecting you from the incredible lethality of ranged attacks in AOS at the moment.
*Yes, in theory entangling blocks LOS, but in practice it doesn't because of the fly exclusion and because it's just so rare in the first place anyway.
The same issue that we have with most GW rules - GW tends to have very casual style writers who tend to play more fluffy than strict and who aim for more cinematic than functiona/strict rules. Esp since they worked on stripping the rules down. It's clear that at some point the idea was to have almost no universal terrain rules and to instead replace it with dozens of "warscroll" terrain each with its own unique rules card to try and encourage sales of terrain. I think they might have pulled back from that a little, but its still got a legacy in AoS.
40K seems to have improved a bit and GW seems to be doing a hop-skip game with the two main leaders in that what works in one seems to get ported to the other.
The same issue that we have with most GW rules - GW tends to have very casual style writers who tend to play more fluffy than strict and who aim for more cinematic than functiona/strict rules. Esp since they worked on stripping the rules down. It's clear that at some point the idea was to have almost no universal terrain rules and to instead replace it with dozens of "warscroll" terrain each with its own unique rules card to try and encourage sales of terrain. I think they might have pulled back from that a little, but its still got a legacy in AoS.
40K seems to have improved a bit and GW seems to be doing a hop-skip game with the two main leaders in that what works in one seems to get ported to the other.
Ok I have to say, that excuse only works for so long. Decades of " but they are so relaxed when they write rules bruh ! " At what point do they decide perhaps they are out of touch with most who play their games and should tighten stuff down more ? Even now they take two steps forward and one back many times. I mean their relaxed approach to rules design works great if they are the only ones buying it but they are selling it to us so they should perhaps knuckle down with the rules a bit to help them actually work, like with their terrain kits which feel pretty lame at the moment. Not trying to really bash them let me point that out but you do a company no favors by just giving them excuses when they fall short.
The same issue that we have with most GW rules - GW tends to have very casual style writers who tend to play more fluffy than strict and who aim for more cinematic than functiona/strict rules. Esp since they worked on stripping the rules down. It's clear that at some point the idea was to have almost no universal terrain rules and to instead replace it with dozens of "warscroll" terrain each with its own unique rules card to try and encourage sales of terrain. I think they might have pulled back from that a little, but its still got a legacy in AoS.
40K seems to have improved a bit and GW seems to be doing a hop-skip game with the two main leaders in that what works in one seems to get ported to the other.
Ok I have to say, that excuse only works for so long. Decades of " but they are so relaxed when they write rules bruh ! " At what point do they decide perhaps they are out of touch with most who play their games and should tighten stuff down more ? Even now they take two steps forward and one back many times. I mean their relaxed approach to rules design works great if they are the only ones buying it but they are selling it to us so they should perhaps knuckle down with the rules a bit to help them actually work, like with their terrain kits which feel pretty lame at the moment. Not trying to really bash them let me point that out but you do a company no favors by just giving them excuses when they fall short.
I won't deny that GW could do more and that history has shown whenever they've tightened things up its generally been very positively received. Heck one of the biggest shifts has been to speed up codex/battletome release, FAQ and Errata updates and such. Time once was you could wait a whole edition and still never get a new book; I even recall Tyranids getting their edition FAQ for their new codex on the same week they ended that whole edition and launched a new one. The result of this change (And others) was the explosion of sales that saw GW top the UK stockmarket for a time.
Thing is GW has staff who have worked on these games for decades and, like or not, they ARE the biggest name in the business by far. Yes they can do better, but historically their method has kinda, well, its worked to some degree. though one can argue that other factors come into play, but its likely a nightmare to tease out which factors affected it the "most".
It's chapterhouseism. GW only makes rules for terrain pieces *they* sell. These pieces naturally need bespoke special rules, because they are (for the most part) not generic but rather 'Verbnoun Nouncopywrite' terrain pieces. Which predisposes GW to not be thinking about what generic normal stuff is, which is what the vast majority of us are actually interacting with the majority of the time. Surely you have noticed that GW does not write rules for water features anymore? Because they don't sell any.
AoS doesn't even have rules for forests. Just Awakened Wyldwoods, because they sell those. We have to extrapolate out from that what generic forest rules are supposed to be.
It's chapterhouseism. GW only makes rules for terrain pieces *they* sell. These pieces naturally need bespoke special rules, because they are (for the most part) not generic but rather 'Verbnoun Nouncopywrite' terrain pieces. Which predisposes GW to not be thinking about what generic normal stuff is, which is what the vast majority of us are actually interacting with the majority of the time. Surely you have noticed that GW does not write rules for water features anymore? Because they don't sell any.
AoS doesn't even have rules for forests. Just Awakened Wyldwoods, because they sell those. We have to extrapolate out from that what generic forest rules are supposed to be.
You mean the Citadel Wood? There’s still a Warscroll for that in addition to the Awakened one in the app.
It's just annoying to find the terrain rules on their warscrolls instead of having more generic rules in the core rules.
And yep, GW write rules for the kits they sell. Shocking.
Since moves in AoS around terrain is pretty much litteral (every inch you have to move vertically AND horizontally are counted), it solves itself just by the size of the said terrain. Abstract terrains rarely count (biggest exception are woods), especially since it's always related to the terrain GW sells. So wanna climb the Badmoon Loonshrine instead of moving around it ? Hope you have the Fly keyword. And the Loonshrine is big enough to block true LoS to a lot of things, anyway.
Maybe that'll change with next edition, just like 40k terrain rules became a bit more abstract than before (mostly for ruins).
The same issue that we have with most GW rules - GW tends to have very casual style writers who tend to play more fluffy than strict and who aim for more cinematic than functiona/strict rules. Esp since they worked on stripping the rules down. It's clear that at some point the idea was to have almost no universal terrain rules and to instead replace it with dozens of "warscroll" terrain each with its own unique rules card to try and encourage sales of terrain. I think they might have pulled back from that a little, but its still got a legacy in AoS.
40K seems to have improved a bit and GW seems to be doing a hop-skip game with the two main leaders in that what works in one seems to get ported to the other.
Ok I have to say, that excuse only works for so long. Decades of " but they are so relaxed when they write rules bruh ! " At what point do they decide perhaps they are out of touch with most who play their games and should tighten stuff down more ? Even now they take two steps forward and one back many times. I mean their relaxed approach to rules design works great if they are the only ones buying it but they are selling it to us so they should perhaps knuckle down with the rules a bit to help them actually work, like with their terrain kits which feel pretty lame at the moment. Not trying to really bash them let me point that out but you do a company no favors by just giving them excuses when they fall short.
I won't deny that GW could do more and that history has shown whenever they've tightened things up its generally been very positively received. Heck one of the biggest shifts has been to speed up codex/battletome release, FAQ and Errata updates and such. Time once was you could wait a whole edition and still never get a new book; I even recall Tyranids getting their edition FAQ for their new codex on the same week they ended that whole edition and launched a new one. The result of this change (And others) was the explosion of sales that saw GW top the UK stockmarket for a time.
Thing is GW has staff who have worked on these games for decades and, like or not, they ARE the biggest name in the business by far. Yes they can do better, but historically their method has kinda, well, its worked to some degree. though one can argue that other factors come into play, but its likely a nightmare to tease out which factors affected it the "most".
Their method has worked so far only really based on weight rolling down hill. Any gamer will tell you if a game isn't close to perfect, but you can always find a game that does wonders to inspire people to play it. They are in a good place currently and doing well nothing lasts forever however and I think gaming in person and those products may suffer a hit in the long run if all the current events keep up as you have little reason to keep up with things with no expectation to play the game any time soon. Games, and getting together with friends was what really drove my purchases so they can't just keep riding being the top dog forever which is probably why they changed direction to at least pay lip service to balance finally from the mess of 7th. If another game really starts to threaten it then we'd see I think some better stuff. As is no real pretenders to the throne have really arrived yet.
I'd just wish they'd work a bit harder on the rule front and realize for once everyone who picks up their game isn't just them and they need to design with that in mind, who they sell to and not " Well, we understand it. " Which doesn't help us out at all. Sorry for the de-railing all just wanted to shoot the breeze in response to this.
It's chapterhouseism. GW only makes rules for terrain pieces *they* sell. These pieces naturally need bespoke special rules, because they are (for the most part) not generic but rather 'Verbnoun Nouncopywrite' terrain pieces. Which predisposes GW to not be thinking about what generic normal stuff is, which is what the vast majority of us are actually interacting with the majority of the time. Surely you have noticed that GW does not write rules for water features anymore? Because they don't sell any.
AoS doesn't even have rules for forests. Just Awakened Wyldwoods, because they sell those. We have to extrapolate out from that what generic forest rules are supposed to be.
You mean the Citadel Wood? There’s still a Warscroll for that in addition to the Awakened one in the app.
Oh it's in the app? I stand corrected.
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Sarouan wrote: Yep, and GW woods do block line of sight.
It's just annoying to find the terrain rules on their warscrolls instead of having more generic rules in the core rules.
And yep, GW write rules for the kits they sell. Shocking.
Since moves in AoS around terrain is pretty much litteral (every inch you have to move vertically AND horizontally are counted), it solves itself just by the size of the said terrain. Abstract terrains rarely count (biggest exception are woods), especially since it's always related to the terrain GW sells. So wanna climb the Badmoon Loonshrine instead of moving around it ? Hope you have the Fly keyword. And the Loonshrine is big enough to block true LoS to a lot of things, anyway.
Maybe that'll change with next edition, just like 40k terrain rules became a bit more abstract than before (mostly for ruins).
The point is we don't have rules for a wide variety of terrain people normally use in either Warhammer because they aren't kits GW sells. Any sort of water feature, for example.
After watching the TTS video (found here) on how to properly set up terrain and experimenting a bit myself, I have found that you can make really great tables out of 9th edition 40k terrain rules with the right mix of ruins, dense terrain and barricades. However, it took quite some effort to learn how to do so.
A table set up without paying attention to how terrain is going to play (classic diorama setups often suffer from this), it's also very easy to end up with a game where you either can't see jack and melee reigns superior, or vehicles and monsters get blocked out of large parts of the table, or that are one-sided shooting galleries.
If you set up tables regularly, make sure to watch the video and then experiment with the right mix of ruins, dense terrain (forest/industrial/ruined walls), containers/rocks and barricades/pipes, because each of those types favors different types of units and makes playing much more tactical and rewarding. Also make sure to put interesting gameplay opportunities around your objectives, just having obscuring terrain everywhere isn't as interesting as having objectives obscured from one side and protected by barricades to the other side.
IMHO 9th edition's terrain rules have lots of potential, but it's hard to learn how to unlock it.
AngryAngel80 wrote: GW, when will you sell us GW issue water for our battles, just a small bottle of water for 25$, anything else would be uncivilized.
Well, years ago, I used three boxes of this stuff to create a small lake with a sunk chimera in it. 25€ for modelled water isn't as expensive as it sounds
NinthMusketeer wrote: The point is we don't have rules for a wide variety of terrain people normally use in either Warhammer because they aren't kits GW sells. Any sort of water feature, for example.
Not specifically water terrains, that's true...but you forget there are still generic terrain rules in the AoS core rules.
A water stream can still provide cover and have, let's say, the Deadly keyword in the scenery table. And there you have, your water stream terrain rules. Good enough for me, to be honest.
In the end, terrain warscrolls are just specific rules for specific kits GW sells. Which is why they are included with the boxes they sell. Still sucks for customized terrains, I agree.
AngryAngel80 wrote: GW, when will you sell us GW issue water for our battles, just a small bottle of water for 25$, anything else would be uncivilized.
The same issue that we have with most GW rules - GW tends to have very casual style writers who tend to play more fluffy than strict and who aim for more cinematic than functiona/strict rules. Esp since they worked on stripping the rules down. It's clear that at some point the idea was to have almost no universal terrain rules and to instead replace it with dozens of "warscroll" terrain each with its own unique rules card to try and encourage sales of terrain. I think they might have pulled back from that a little, but its still got a legacy in AoS.
40K seems to have improved a bit and GW seems to be doing a hop-skip game with the two main leaders in that what works in one seems to get ported to the other.
Ok I have to say, that excuse only works for so long. Decades of " but they are so relaxed when they write rules bruh ! " At what point do they decide perhaps they are out of touch with most who play their games and should tighten stuff down more ? Even now they take two steps forward and one back many times. I mean their relaxed approach to rules design works great if they are the only ones buying it but they are selling it to us so they should perhaps knuckle down with the rules a bit to help them actually work, like with their terrain kits which feel pretty lame at the moment. Not trying to really bash them let me point that out but you do a company no favors by just giving them excuses when they fall short.
Well, why would they? You keep buying the stuff and playing the game, so why would they want to completely change their focus if it's working?
).
). Even with Marine slant it shouldn't be so hard to bring the remaining armies up to par instead of letting them languish.
