Hey... I won't always agree with his theory-crafting, but that blog did get me to buy some models i've had fun with (not necessarily did WELL with, but have enjoyed testing) like Aun-va, etc...
Yup. I'm not blind. I know its there. But... No need. I'm good enough without it and theres no better way to prove it than...well...proving it.
No doubt. You really should have some sort of blog to fill us in on how you've become so awesome!
I have a blog. It's in my signature below.
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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Hey... I won't always agree with his theory-crafting, but that blog did get me to buy some models i've had fun with (not necessarily did WELL with, but have enjoyed testing) like Aun-va, etc...
I am glad to hear it created some thought. As for theory, Aun'Va and most of the suggestions I make on the blog itself are pretty well tested and of course, i play them in ITC tournaments as well. Of the tournaments i did well in, I won two tournaments this year using Aun'Va (which were the two tournaments I played him in). 2 for 2? Not bad. More telling is opponents reaction when i am constantly allowed to re-roll my leadership saves. I can imagine how annoying that must have been when they end up getting out of combat on the wrong phase, repeatedly.
Ruts are pretty easy to get into. Look at the weight of your average gamer and tell me I'm wrong. I just make an intentional effort not to get in them to the extent I am sensibly able.
I honestly haven't ever had any problems with leadership for Aun'va to fix. I typically run MSU armies, so units that get shot up tend to get wiped - no chance to run. I also don't like that he's unable to hide in units which really sucks, given how fragile he is. I've considered being tricky and using a tank Commander in Aun'va's unit (or even an Ethereal Council with Aun'va) to spew out powers, because a tank Commander with the paradox of duality is going to be REALLY hard to kill. Of course, you can just flank the unit or something to get around the tank, but you have to admit that the idea of a unit that has at least a 2+/5+++ is pretty nifty. Of course, you're spending ~400pts on a slow unit with very little offensive output that doesn't really force multiply that impressively (and can thus be more or less ignored as convenient.)
So it occurs to me that I haven't seen a good drone spam list in a long time. I'm assuming the ITC is sticking with their ruling that you can't enter and leave play on the same turn, despite the FAQ indicating otherwise, so that would clearly hurt the formation's popularity. There's also the part about needing a bajillion drones to actually make it work. In any event, I was thinking this might be nasty:
1846 in total. Dropping a couple Piranhas for more Marker Drones would probably be wise. You might also consider switching the CAD around to a Hunter Cadre and running the whole thing as a DBC for drone wound rerolling lawlz, but that'd likely require dropping a Stormsurge and the Ethereal. In fact, it might end up looking something like this:
I've had morale problems (well my Tau army, to be more specific..). For example, in the OSC, the three Ghostkeels in a unit, are LD9. Which isn't great for a unit that costs so much. Some armies can target your leadership value, mainly psychic powers.
Quick rules question regarding the Stormsurge. As a Super-Heavy am I allowed to fire the D-missiles at different targets, or are they considered "the same weapon" and thus have to all go into one target?
Bryan01 wrote: I've had morale problems (well my Tau army, to be more specific..). For example, in the OSC, the three Ghostkeels in a unit, are LD9. Which isn't great for a unit that costs so much. Some armies can target your leadership value, mainly psychic powers.
Correct. Its an issue. Aun'Va solves this issue. There is a certain level of MSU you can aspire to obviously that makes LD less important. i think thats true. I dont think it solves it entirely and PERHAPS most importantly is when you wantot run or want to stand. Being able to try both is big, over the course of 5-6 turns and who knows how many combats. Catching enemies outin the open in the wrong phase is definitely an important goal for me.
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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Quick rules question regarding the Stormsurge. As a Super-Heavy am I allowed to fire the D-missiles at different targets, or are they considered "the same weapon" and thus have to all go into one target?
MilkmanAl wrote: I believe each missile is considered an individual weapon, so go wild!
Excellent. Thanks. I ran my above-mentioned Cron/Tau list vs. a Gladius, and after my Y'vahra actually made surprisingly easy work of the Imperial Knight, I wasn't sure if I could start throwing the missiles around at different Razorbacks to start popping.
It would be hard to fire them all as D shots at four separate targets, but a S8 AP1 shot is still good for popping light vehicles. I use them that way if there isn't anything that really needs Strength D (like Gladius).
ZergSmasher wrote: It would be hard to fire them all as D shots at four separate targets, but a S8 AP1 shot is still good for popping light vehicles. I use them that way if there isn't anything that really needs Strength D (like Gladius).
Essentially that was my thought. Once the Knight was down, I didn't know if I would need to suffer a really inefficient round of shooting or not. But yeah, against Pods, etc... i'll happily settle for Str 8.
So for Christmas this year I rewarded myself with a KX139 Supremacy Armor, XV106 R'Varna and a XV109 Y'Vahra. I've heard some good stories about the 109 but was interested to hear what people thought/knew about the other two.
The supremacy armor is one of the most (overly) powerful units in the game. I mean, 600pts for realistically indestructible 7" strength D blast is borderline ludicrous. R'varna packs a serious punch on a really durable platform, but it doesn't offer a whole lot that Tau don't already have in spades. Just about everything you can field has high-strength, medium AP options. It's a good option, but I feel like the Y'vahra and standard IA riptide are more worthwhile.
Not every format allows the Taunar to be used, The R'varna will gain a niche use in the current meta which has shifted towards the heavy use of "artillery" type units with renegades of vrak spam etc.
Got my list for the TSHFT Major locked down. leaving at 2PM to get the hotel situated. Made a major chance to the list (and a risky one) to counter a major weakness. We will now see if that sacrifice pays off...
Sheit27 wrote: Not every format allows the Taunar to be used, The R'varna will gain a niche use in the current meta which has shifted towards the heavy use of "artillery" type units with renegades of vrak spam etc.
Yep, besides my club there's a local tournament every month at a store that allows the Supremacy Armor. Not sure if Nova does/will this year.
Bryan01 wrote:I've had morale problems (well my Tau army, to be more specific..). For example, in the OSC, the three Ghostkeels in a unit, are LD9. Which isn't great for a unit that costs so much. Some armies can target your leadership value, mainly psychic powers.
Give them BKR for at least coming back sooner. About psychic powers, best having a Talisman around...
necron99 wrote:So for Christmas this year I rewarded myself with a KX139 Supremacy Armor, XV106 R'Varna and a XV109 Y'Vahra. I've heard some good stories about the 109 but was interested to hear what people thought/knew about the other two.
Necer tried the 139, but I have a 106 and already tested the 109.
R'varna is pretty nice against 4+ or worse saves, as AV12 or worse. It works wonders vs Daemons (especially if they like their cavalry units and unarmored MCs), but I didn't have the same performance against Marines. Also, it's 35p cheaper than a Wraithknight and is way less resistant than the big Eldar guy.
For its price, I rather have another normal Riptide and a bunch of Crisis
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Bryan01 wrote: Just to confirm, Shadowsun can't join a non infiltrating unit in the deployment phase, even if she is deploying normally? That is the way I've played it to be safe.
I do this. I'd join her in deployment phase/reserves only with Kroot or Stealth Suits.
FSE with crisis troops is good, but lately, I have been taking essentially TE Codex vanilla builds. For the same reason why Shadowsun got 'nerfed'. . . infiltrators deploy last. Having my bubble wrapping Kroot able to bubble wrap anything my opponent deploys to counter is a wonderful ability - just because they can infiltrate doesn't mean that the optimal use is to deploy them forward. . .
despite what others may say on this thread, there will seldom be a reason to take more than 2 stormsurges at a time. They eat points amazingly fast, giving each Interceptor, Shields, and Skyfire eats a lot of points, and using 2 in a squad makes for some teeth gnashing when your opponent tries to take them out.
And the start collecting boxes? You are making all your drones marker drones?
Yeah I give Ghostkeels the trusty bonding knife, only unit where it doesn't feel like a tax! Still, by no means a perfect solution. I don't think Tau have enough warp charges to make much use of the talisman.
Kroot bubble wrap makes sense with the increase in first turn assaults.
carldooley wrote: FSE with crisis troops is good, but lately, I have been taking essentially TE Codex vanilla builds. For the same reason why Shadowsun got 'nerfed'. . . infiltrators deploy last. Having my bubble wrapping Kroot able to bubble wrap anything my opponent deploys to counter is a wonderful ability - just because they can infiltrate doesn't mean that the optimal use is to deploy them forward. . .
despite what others may say on this thread, there will seldom be a reason to take more than 2 stormsurges at a time. They eat points amazingly fast, giving each Interceptor, Shields, and Skyfire eats a lot of points, and using 2 in a squad makes for some teeth gnashing when your opponent tries to take them out.
And the start collecting boxes? You are making all your drones marker drones?
Skyfire? Isn't that wasteful on Stormsurge as its best weapon isn't even receiving the benefit? I feel like a Tau player in a meta that even worries about anti-air, just takes OSC and deletes flyers at will.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Skyfire? Isn't that wasteful on Stormsurge as its best weapon isn't even receiving the benefit? I feel like a Tau player in a meta that even worries about anti-air, just takes OSC and deletes flyers at will.
The problem with that is most of the good FMCs are rocking a 2++ after the first Psychic Phase, or are spammed with 3+ armor. Magnus, Kairos, and Flyrants are common Fliers in my area. 2++ Fliers really hate a Skyfiring Blastcannon, and Flyrants can be dinged up by all the secondary weapons. While the OSC can do fine against Flyrants, it needs multiple VTs, and is terribly inefficient against a 2++ rerolling 1s. The Stormsurge can fish for 6s with StrD, toss other shots at another, then charge and Stomp one who fails their Grounding Test.
Just thought i'd throw an update in here regarding my second test game using the list i'd discussed earlier. This was again against a Gladius, and this one won out as a result of being White Scars. By game's end I had removed 80% of the army, but Ob-Sec everything that was half-way up the table on their first turn proved difficult to out-score.
I don't think I can do too much to make the list more successful and think this might just be a rough match-up. A lucky IK Stomp, rolling a 6' also took out my Pylonstar too early which further diminished my output.
I was thinking of squeezing in a Drone-net, which I can just do, but against the full company, the issue is that there just aren't enough high value targets worth marker-lighting. Having more of them just wouldn't accomplish much for me.
Incidentally, with the Pylons going down EARLY, the Y'vahra, and anchored Stormsurge were responsible for removing 75% of my opponent's list. They really were just terrific.
First game was against a high ranked cheater playing 2 Pylons, which he then joined with like 5 Necron characters. They aren't artilery Crew but he was giving them all T7 just for being in its unit. The rules on page 64 clearly state that the "Artillery Unit" consists of the CREW and the GUNS. It then says that the Artillery unit (Crew and guns) are the same toughness as the Artillery. He cheated like that in every game. We said two enormously steep tall "mountain" terrain pieces were impassable, and then when he deep struck his Pylon unit into it, it suddenly wasn't. Worst cheat which cost me four points at games end was when he brought on his last Night Scythe and jetted it 36" across the board and deployed his immortals six inches out and then ran them to the Primary objective way over in my deployment zone through a space too small to do it in. Only problem is, that's illegal too. He ended up placing very well overall but...he lost to me despite all of his chicanery. This is not a guy who doesn't know the rules. Cost me a lot of points in the standings which pisses me off. So yeah. Win number one. I feel for his opponents after me because most of this stuff on the Night Scythe and the Artillery kind of occurred to me after the fact and all I knew is that nothing he was doing felt right, but I didn't want to halt an already contentious game to check up on pretty much everything he was doing. I could go on about the argument we had at the very end about the objective (It got moved a few times because the mat was kind of hanging over the table and so I put it back at its postion six inches from the edge and he threw a fit about that, ironically as he's jetting 36" and depositing his immortals on it. Lol. Good gawd).
Second game was against Todd Johannsens White Scars battle Company. He seized. His entire army does essentially one thing: he scouts to the middle and sits there the entire game and rolls dice at you. That is it. Lol. There is no artistry to it. He simply GravCannons you until you can't see straight with Grav amps. It works! I did really well against it mostly due to the Ghostkeels unique ability to dodge damage a little bit at range. My Stormsurge kind of whiffed on his missiles which hurt a little. I made one little error in judgement and backed away instead of moving forward on him with my Ghostkeels on the 4th round (there really was no more reason to hide honestly with my saves and so late in the game) and then in turn five I needed a charge with the Ghostkeels to seal a win. missed it because I just didnt advance enough the previous round. Game over. It was a good game though and he sportingly rolled for the combat just to see what would happen if I made the charge. I would indeed have won. Even with the loss I got points so it wasn't a terrible. Todd is a strong opponent so if you get a chance to play him and you want a challenge, fight him. His standing in the ITC is well deserved. I think I've lost to him like three times now, and two of the three were close affairs. I'll get him eventually. =)
Third game was against Aaron Bang. He is a SUPERLATIVE painter and has won tournaments. He had a GREAT looking Lamenters army, different than the one I faced before. This time he went Triple Storm Raven on me, pretty much a 180 degree turn from his previous Lamenters force. I feel he made an error in the second round when he didn't disembark all his stuff in favor of firing down on me hard. I think he could have had a really strong game had he done it but as it was, I managed to blow a Raven out of the sky and killed almost everyone inside it, and had already killed three units of Null Maidens as they tried to cross to objectives. His Null Maidens were a real interesting inclusion in his force. It was my first chance to see them up close. Aaron is a super nice guy and i love having him at our Elvensword Ambassadorial GT. Only the second time I've gotten to face him in an actual game but I've known him for quite a while.
I looked at the list for my game four opponent and knew I was going to have to out general him and focus on his fast attacks in a Scouring mission. His list had me outclassed and I decided to attempt to draw him towards the low end objectives to kill me (as he inevitably would) and back door the higher point objectives, instead of trying to outgun his big Riptide Wing and Dual Stormsurges. The plan worked. He had Maelstrom points pretty firmly in hand, early, but at end of five I had Primary despite only having one model left, the StormSurge (with two wounds). if the game ended it was to be a very hard fought trip to the tertiaries. The game didn't end, so I conceded. I kind of knew I was going to lose this one because A)Sean Morgan is a good general and has actually WON our Elvensword Ambassadorial GT (ironic that I would meet not one but three of our Ambassadors in battle this weekend out of 62 people) and B) that list is just a really well known list that Frankie at Frontline gaming pretty much put on the map. Sean took 3rd place overall at TSHFT so no shame in losing there. I had hoped to get more points out of the loss, and almost did get Primary as I said. I'd say my largest error which was pretty egregious, was forgetting his Tetras could scout. That cost me. My disdain for Forge World probably didn't help me out there.
Game 5 was against Perry Spillman. He brought three Sicaran Battle tanks to kick things off, in an Iron Hands list with drop pods for days and some Ironclads that would have made me very sad had they reached me. Armor 12 on the rear of those battle tanks is a thing, which would somewhat mitigate my Ghostkeels effectiveness at range so I decided to deep strike the whole unit and infiltrate my Stealthsuits and Assassin to meet up wioth them closer to juicy melta range. Ultimately, I swept right and started the party off. His Drop pods kept dropping on objectives, empty but annoying and AV 12 is pretty good. Nonetheless i eventually did kill the pods i had to kill, and got all the way around the board on him. At games end there was essentially nothing left of his force. I think in his defense, my Stormsurge rolled like a CHAMP on his saves and not even so much his saves as his Feel no Pain rolls. I was quite fortunate in that regard, or it mighjt have been a little more even. As it was that stormsurge was on fire, and it did work. I felt like its survival really made the game for me.
Game 6 was against Oliver Reeves. He was a cool cat and he had a squad he literally wrote down as "The Command Squad of Dickery" because it was all Grav guns, Storm shields, 3+ feel no pain, rerolling this and that and blah blah blah. Unkillable killiness. His army was TINY, with an Imperial Knight, his command squad, two Thunderfires which did work, his scouts and two Storms and another Sicaran Battletank and these had more legacies on them. I think I counted 24 models? But lemme tell ya, those 24 models were kinda scary in their potential and he had put his bikes directly across from my Objective 1 and 2 so I abandoned that side completely and went diametrically across the board, figuring an Imperial Knight (with SEVEN Hull Points) was less scary. As it turns out that thing could regen points and he had a Techbiker who could fix him so It took a lot of firepower to down it. He also reduced the str of my weapons by 1 (and -2 when its a blast! Imperial Knight magics) and that made it even tougher. Long story short he had his Sicaran Battle Tank left at the end BUT it took til turn four to even wound his Bike Squad and I fired a LOT into it. Once his Commander went down it fell like dominoes but dang...that guy is TOUGH.
4-2, with a good chance to win one more? Fun. i had a good time and my back survived it which is nice.
Jancoran were there other rules in play for that event? ITC, etc? Because the Necron player was correct in the Artillery and Nightscythe rule.
If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains
A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark either before or after it has moved (including pivoting on the spot), even though it is Zooming, so long it has not moved more than 36" in that Movement phase. If a unit disembarks from a Night Scythe after it has moved 24" or more, models in the unit can only fire Snap Shots until the start of their next turn.
Fragile wrote: Jancoran were there other rules in play for that event? ITC, etc? Because the Necron player was correct in the Artillery and Nightscythe rule.
If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains
A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark either before or after it has moved (including pivoting on the spot), even though it is Zooming, so long it has not moved more than 36" in that Movement phase. If a unit disembarks from a Night Scythe after it has moved 24" or more, models in the unit can only fire Snap Shots until the start of their next turn.
No its not correct on the artillery. They are not Crew, nor the gun. Majority toughness still applies. and the rules SPECIFY that the artillery itrself gains this benefit as defined in the first paragraph of that section. So no. He wasn't right and the ITC does not have an alternate ruling on it. The UNIT doesnt get it. The ARTILLERY and CREW get it. Ive read it twice since then and its clear.
As for the Night Scythe there was more to it, but how much space do i really want to spend descrivbing it? He put his guys through a gap that was too small (which was obviously too small and i showed him it was and he basically said "too bad" and did it anyways), he used the base and not the model for the 36" inch move when no part of the model can move further than 36" (which mattered because SMS could not then see him) and the list goes on. I had models circling the damn thing. there was no room for him to make the move he did. He rushed it and the arguments to that point were enough to dissuade me from going further. Doesnt matter. I beat him. Shouldn't have even been an issue.
About the only thing he was right about was SMS missiles not being able to Intercept if they cant see the target. Did not know that. So if nothing else i did refine my rules knowledge on interceptor. Hurray?
I also had fun at the tournament so although this one game was not, the tournament was.
Jancoran, just because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, just know that Necron IC toughnesses are all over the place, and as such, with three Pylons, it isn't unreasonable to think the newly formed "unit" still had majority toughness 7, once you account for all the different toughness values. I've played Pylonstar a fair bit now, and have seen many a TO give it to the 'Cron player for a couple of reasons.
Which is not to say the guy couldn't have just been a dick, and was ruining the game for myriad reasons... but its offering a possibility. The Pylons always cause this debate. (Trust me, the Necron tactica thread worked on it for pages at one point, and didn't really settle on definitive answers).
Fragile wrote: Well you can take those to YDMC, but those are both rules quotes.
You left out the most important portion of the rules.
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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Jancoran, just because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, just know that Necron IC toughnesses are all over the place, and as such, with three Pylons, it isn't unreasonable to think the newly formed "unit" still had majority toughness 7, once you account for all the different toughness values. I've played Pylonstar a fair bit now, and have seen many a TO give it to the 'Cron player for a couple of reasons.
Which is not to say the guy couldn't have just been a dick, and was ruining the game for myriad reasons... but its offering a possibility. The Pylons always cause this debate. (Trust me, the Necron tactica thread worked on it for pages at one point, and didn't really settle on definitive answers).
It was one game. I wouldn't stress over it. this is the Tau thread not the Necron thread. Just reporting my results.
I'm starting to think more and more about the Farsight CAD...single suits DSing and running around seems a lot faster than msu fire warriors I also recently picked up a culexus to start shoe horning in to ALL of my lists (Necrons, SM, Tau, etc) because it seems everyone at my club either runs Eldar or the Librarius Conclave. How've you found it to work for you?
P.S. You should edit your list and remove the point costs lest the dakkadakka police will show up at your door step
necron99 wrote: I'm starting to think more and more about the Farsight CAD...single suits DSing and running around seems a lot faster than msu fire warriors I also recently picked up a culexus to start shoe horning in to ALL of my lists (Necrons, SM, Tau, etc) because it seems everyone at my club either runs Eldar or the Librarius Conclave. How've you found it to work for you?
P.S. You should edit your list and remove the point costs lest the dakkadakka police will show up at your door step
The Culexus stopped the Librarian Dreadnought from using Force, which was a big deal when it fought my StormSurge. So that was useful. i did not get a ton of use out of him THIS time but the armies were in attendance that I feared, so i mean there was every chance I might meet one of them and I was not necessarily finding him uber useful in all my games but he was useful enough. for example in one game he popped up and outflanked which kinda brought the enemy backing towards him to deal with him whaich was precisely what I needed at that time in the game. his objective sitters were no match and would have gotten butchered so he HAAAAAD to go backwards to save them. in another game at the Major, i was able to blast some Necron Jetbikes and forced them to Jink on two different turns to avoid the AP 1 shots of doom, and because it happens in the Psyker phase, i was still able to advance on them and force the issue again at speed (theres never a reason not to run the Culexus unless you're assaulting).
So from the perspective of limiting my enemies fire potential, he did some work there but there were several armies i definitely would not have wanted to face without it.
necron99 wrote: I'm starting to think more and more about the Farsight CAD...single suits DSing and running around seems a lot faster than msu fire warriors I also recently picked up a culexus to start shoe horning in to ALL of my lists (Necrons, SM, Tau, etc) because it seems everyone at my club either runs Eldar or the Librarius Conclave. How've you found it to work for you?
P.S. You should edit your list and remove the point costs lest the dakkadakka police will show up at your door step
I've had a good amount of luck using Sisters of Silence in the place of a Culexus... but generally I LOATH the almost mandatory Culexsus right now, and think its among the worst parts of competitive 40k.
I will say I LOVE Farsight CADs, and they've become my default starting point when Tau list-building. Solo Crisis suits are great suicide scorers, or contributors/distractions in their own right, and its the tax free way to get an Y'vahra, or Stormsurge into any list you like. I also really enjoy Tetras in lists that don't have a formation slot free for Drone-net (ala ITC restrictions), and the Farsight CAD likewise makes that possible.
I had to take a riptide out of the list in order to take him, and that bothered me but seemed very necessary. People dont mess around at Majors. 60% of them think they can win it all.
Jancoran wrote: I had to take a riptide out of the list in order to take him, and that bothered me but seemed very necessary. People dont mess@around at Majors. 60% of them think they can win it all.
That sounds like everyone at my club. About 90% of them are WAAC or at least play lists that you would normally see in the top 10 or so at your average tournament. Which is really good for me because it forces me to do better But now it's forcing me to come up with ways of dealing with the psychic phase while playing armies that don't normally participate in that phase.
This Monday I'm scheduled to play against Magnus and the flying circus so I'm rolling out the skyrays which I didn't think I'd be able to play again en mass due to the Tau formation being more heavy towards hammerhead but looking at the FSE CAD I can run three again
Jancoran wrote: I had to take a riptide out of the list in order to take him, and that bothered me but seemed very necessary. People dont mess@around at Majors. 60% of them think they can win it all.
That sounds like everyone at my club. About 90% of them are WAAC or at least play lists that you would normally see in the top 10 or so at your average tournament. Which is really good for me because it forces me to do better But now it's forcing me to come up with ways of dealing with the psychic phase while playing armies that don't normally participate in that phase.
This Monday I'm scheduled to play against Magnus and the flying circus so I'm rolling out the skyrays which I didn't think I'd be able to play again en mass due to the Tau formation being more heavy towards hammerhead but looking at the FSE CAD I can run three again
We have a similar meta... but won I would almost say is one step "further" down where things are heading. Here people have gotten so accustomed to taking the mandatory anti-Psyker options, that they've significantly reduced taking anything Psyker themselves. As such, i'm personally reading this as a safe time, around here, to drop the Culexus as he's becoming dead points.
Magnus will be a thing, but I think the next tournament metas might drift away from Psyker heavy armies now that people outright plan to deal with them, first thing, in almost any list they make.
So out of curiosity how do most of you run your OSC? Mine's almost complete (need another keel and maybe a few more stealth suits). Do you keep the stealth suits close by to take advantage of the formation rules? Do you run them out in the open or refuse to leave cover? Most of the terrain at my club mimics the Nova format so there's usually a clump of ruins in the middle and in two of the corners with hills in the other two corners. At a local monthly tournament I attend it's much more sporadic and barely conducive for 3 MCs let alone 3 MCs and two units of stealth suits.
The last few months I have been running my OSC w/ 3 keels. I have had some really good success, but also if you don't get a good jump away they have gotten tied up in hth.
I typically just use the stealth suits to grab obj's and homing beacons for my retaliation cadre. I find that trying to keep them within 6" is a little too difficult for my liking.
Also by using the drones to keep coherency I have been able to mitigate the 24" range of the CIB to some degree by spreading the keels out and each firing at different targets if needed.
necron99 wrote: So out of curiosity how do most of you run your OSC? Mine's almost complete (need another keel and maybe a few more stealth suits). Do you keep the stealth suits close by to take advantage of the formation rules? Do you run them out in the open or refuse to leave cover? Most of the terrain at my club mimics the Nova format so there's usually a clump of ruins in the middle and in two of the corners with hills in the other two corners. At a local monthly tournament I attend it's much more sporadic and barely conducive for 3 MCs let alone 3 MCs and two units of stealth suits.
I have found that they make a VERY formidable firebase when you need one and its mobile. I have also learned that Stealthsuits make excellent roadblocks. However having said all that, I am also finding great need in my force to sort of "join up with them later" because infiltrating them is so useful. For example at this weekends Major, the Stalthsuits in round one had to go get the Emperors Will objective way over yonder against Necrons and couldnt really afford to "hang" with their big buddies who were charged with taking up the middle to stop Pylons from porting without consequence ( a wise decision as it turned out).
In game two the Stealthsuits were used to cut off the Scout moves of the White Scars. He seized on me, which sucked terribly badly. had he not that game was mine for the taking. The Stealthsuits are obviously far more expensive than the kroot would have been but...Kroot arent in my OSC are they? it was very unfortunate to lose them like that.
in round 3, the Stealthsuits stayed home and blasted stuff apart with the Ghost keels nearby. Effective as always. One unit forged forth and took out two units of Sisters of Silence over time. that unit just could not kill the stupid Drop pod over there. fortunately it didnt end up mattering much.
in game 4, the stealthsuits definitely had to DS and draw the enemy backwards to protects its rearguard. In that game it was all up hill anyways and one of them had a perfect landing spot...only to bound 9 inches and DIRECTLY into the middle of three Riptides. Lol. They died. not a shining moment for them.
in game 5 they were REALLY effective ranging forward and blowing stuff up with meltas and as the Ghostkeels got up to join them it got even better. they pretty much only spent one turn without Ghostkeel coolness because I deep struck in the ghostkeels in round 2.
On game 6, the Stealthsuits were up against a ton of tough armor and tough everything, so I infiltrated them near infiltrating scouts shot and assaulted said scouts (killed them), Killed a Storm, and took objectives. in the other corner they ranged forward and shot up the gunners on his thunderfire Cannons, albeit it took a lot of shooting to get it done. The fusion made it through his 3+ cover and popped the guys eventually. So here again mooooostly ranging.
I guess it just depends on the enemy. as a rule they are quite scary en masses and with ghostkeels nearby. they can roll a flank if the enemy isn't an unkillable deathstar type thing. volume of fire on them even helps against some flyers once in a while. its about the opponent more than it is about my army as far as using them goes but they do so much work, its really great having them.
I don't think I've ever run an OSC with fewer than 3 Ghostkeels. They're too good to pass up in the formation, and BS5 from Fire Team is killer. The Stealth Suits are good enough, but I definitely do my best to keep them within formation bonus range, if at all possible. Otherwise, they're just Stealth Suits, which is lackluster.
With that in mind, I tend to use the OSC as a forward unit of some kind. That may mean flanking, pushing the middle, or denying a flank, depending on deployment and what's going on in the game. I've always been very happy with the OSC's performance, and the Ghostkeels tend to draw an unusually huge amount of fire. I'm cool with that!
When I use OSC, it's with 3 Ghostkeels (in reserves if I have a Comms Relay, on table if I don't) + 2x3 Stealthies, which I infiltrate and use as a nuisance. The 3 Ghosties are the main deal for me (CIR and TLBC).
Ghostkeels never hurt you on the table though. Its unusual to say the least for enemies to prefer them as targets when I explain holophoton Countermeasures to the opponent. 2+ armor AND that? they start looking for something else to shoot. Lol. Which allows the Ghostkeels to do a lot of damage. The Riptide wing is kinda mean, and so is the OSC. You can strand half of a Battle company where it stands with the OSC and then bomb the crap out of what came out with the Riptide Wing. I have never used a Riptide Wing (on purpose) but they do in fact act as EXCELLENT finishers. in that kind of list.
I think i will unshackle myself though in regard to the Riptide Wing. I've never done it because I just don't like the sour look I see on a persons face when I hear others saying "Are you familiar with how the Riptide Wing functions?" I actually DO care about that. But as the meta gets meaner, I feel i will have to as well and like I've said before, I do swim in a shark tank here. There's an unmerciful volume of great armies I have to face, and it gets tougher and tougher to be the only guy with any restraint still winning.
I enjoy the challenge, which is part of it I suppose but i think the enemies have grown strong enough to allow me the freedom to do it.
My thoughts exactly Jancoran. I feel like a brutal meta should mean yours gloves are off as well. How sociable, and pleasant a gamer you are is independent of your list, in my mind, and I can bring a blood-thirsty list, but have fun, encourage fun for my opponent, be a good sport, etc. Its just a part of the social contract, so bringing a Wing against a new-to-the-game ten year old, is different than bringing it against someone there to seriously compete.
Also, from these last few posts, I guess I need to buy a third Ghostkeel. :-p I've only ever had two.
Jancoran wrote: Ghostkeels never hurt you on the table though. Its unusual to say the least for enemies to prefer them as targets when I explain holophoton Countermeasures to the opponent. 2+ armor AND that? they start looking for something else to shoot. Lol.
Where did your ghost keels find 2+? they are 3+ armor. I mean i could send them shopping at a new store, for some sweet 2+ pants and shoulder pads.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: My thoughts exactly Jancoran. I feel like a brutal meta should mean yours gloves are off as well. How sociable, and pleasant a gamer you are is independent of your list, in my mind, and I can bring a blood-thirsty list, but have fun, encourage fun for my opponent, be a good sport, etc. Its just a part of the social contract, so bringing a Wing against a new-to-the-game ten year old, is different than bringing it against someone there to seriously compete.
Also, from these last few posts, I guess I need to buy a third Ghostkeel. :-p I've only ever had two.
Jancoran wrote: Ghostkeels never hurt you on the table though. Its unusual to say the least for enemies to prefer them as targets when I explain holophoton Countermeasures to the opponent. 2+ armor AND that? they start looking for something else to shoot. Lol.
Where did your ghost keels find 2+? they are 3+ armor. I mean i could send them shopping at a new store, for some sweet 2+ pants and shoulder pads.
Anyone know the lists for the Tau players that have been placing at top tables at recent tournaments? TSHFT was won by a Tau player, a Tau player came in third as well, plus Sean Nayden apparently has been playing Tau, taking 2nd at the Huzzah Hobbies Hammer in the New Year, as well as second in the Glass City GT. I'm especially interested to hear what Nayden is running because he typically makes Jancoran look like a netlister with his innovation.
The guy pioneered Lictor Shame, which was a list that used only two hive tyrants and a ton of single model lictor units to win a GT, made all the more impressive because the Lictor was considered one of the least points-efficient models in the Tyranid codex. He was the first to use DE Beast Star back in the day (although I have heard that this may have been in parallel with someone across the pond). He also was inches away from winning another GT with a corpsethief claw formation - not an awful formation but hardly considered top tournament tier.
So to say the least, I'm curious to see what he's been doing with Tau.
luke1705 wrote: The guy pioneered Lictor Shame, which was a list that used only two hive tyrants and a ton of single model lictor units to win a GT, made all the more impressive because the Lictor was considered one of the least points-efficient models in the Tyranid codex. He was the first to use DE Beast Star back in the day (although I have heard that this may have been in parallel with someone across the pond). He also was inches away from winning another GT with a corpsethief claw formation - not an awful formation but hardly considered top tournament tier.
So to say the least, I'm curious to see what he's been doing with Tau.
OK I know who you mean now. Lictor Shame was supremely great for guys like me. Loved hearing of his victory with that as i do with anyone whose just GOOd at the game and doesnt need a netlist to take home the gold.
luke1705 wrote: Anyone know the lists for the Tau players that have been placing at top tables at recent tournaments? TSHFT was won by a Tau player, a Tau player came in third as well, plus Sean Nayden apparently has been playing Tau, taking 2nd at the Huzzah Hobbies Hammer in the New Year, as well as second in the Glass City GT. I'm especially interested to hear what Nayden is running because he typically makes Jancoran look like a netlister with his innovation.
I can't speak to Sean, but on the East Coast i've been seeing Reece's netlist (Double Storm-surge FSE CAD + Riptide wing) showing up at top tables surprisingly often again. It seemed to have gone out of vogue for a while, and then boom... I think two people ran it at Goldensprue this past weekend, and elsewhere.
Edit: And yeah, Jan... creativity in competitive 40k makes me so, so very happy. I love running great lists, but deplore net-listing. The most recent GT near me was Goldensprue this last weekend, and friends who attended told me it was a third really fun, or personally crafted lists, and then just a bunch of clone armies pulled from other recent GTs. That just feels so very dull to me as I imagine its always about just guessing and beating the current "meta" at the list-building level, and less-so good generalship at the table.
luke1705 wrote: Anyone know the lists for the Tau players that have been placing at top tables at recent tournaments? TSHFT was won by a Tau player, a Tau player came in third as well, plus Sean Nayden apparently has been playing Tau, taking 2nd at the Huzzah Hobbies Hammer in the New Year, as well as second in the Glass City GT. I'm especially interested to hear what Nayden is running because he typically makes Jancoran look like a netlister with his innovation.
I can't speak to Sean, but on the East Coast i've been seeing Reece's netlist (Double Storm-surge FSE CAD + Riptide wing) showing up at top tables surprisingly often again. It seemed to have gone out of vogue for a while, and then boom... I think two people ran it at Goldensprue this past weekend, and elsewhere.
Edit: And yeah, Jan... creativity in competitive 40k makes me so, so very happy. I love running great lists, but deplore net-listing. The most recent GT near me was Goldensprue this last weekend, and friends who attended told me it was a third really fun, or personally crafted lists, and then just a bunch of clone armies pulled from other recent GTs. That just feels so very dull to me as I imagine its always about just guessing and beating the current "meta" at the list-building level, and less-so good generalship at the table.
Yup. I played against Sean Morgan's Tau Empire at TSHFT (He used the Frankie list) and was pretty sure before the game started that it wouldn't go well. Lol. I looked at his list the night before. I played him tough and mitigated his Markerlights by making him use interceptor more (basically null deployed and tried to play the objectives), and did some other things to kind of play the long game but in the end I probably just could have lined up and took my chances trying to outshoot the guy. Hey at least I would have gotten to roll more dice and when ISNT that fun? Next time i see that list, I'll probably do just that. In his defense I mean when you pay $90 to compete, you're there to win. You really can't bark about that. So while it might not have been very creative, it was understandable. Like i said before, I had the Primary at the end of 5 but he was going to win whether the game went on or not because he had the Tertiaries but i sure wish it had gotten down to that just from an ITC points perspective. Oh well.
I went 4-2 without the netlist and was a charge away from 5-1, instead of 5-1 with a net list? All things being equal and knowing there's only going to be one winner, I'd say I did fine.
He is taking a different list to my Elvensword Ambassadorial GT this Saturday the 28th (in part because of the unique way the Tournament rules are designed to encourage a more all comers approach). it is below:
Farsight Enclaves Combined Arms Detachment (primary)
135pts Commander Shadowsun (warlord)
60pts 10 Kroot Carnivores
645pts 9 Crisis (Bonding Knife, 9 Gun Drones
Shas’vre w/Command+Control Node, Multispectrum Sensor, Puretide Chip
2 w/Missile Pod, Missile Pod, Target Lock
2 w/Fusion Blaster, Fusion Blaster, Target Lock
3 w/Plasma Rifle, Plasma Rifle, Target Lock
1 w/Burst Cannon, Burst Cannon, Vectored Retro-thrusters)
It's not less scary of course (Shadowsun is the key to the unit and she cant be sniped out). The Ranged Support Cadre is a pretty interesting include though. I like it. This is much more creative if not ground breaking. I actually am eager to see how it does. You can follow along as the tournament progresses.
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luke1705 wrote: Anyone know the lists for the Tau players that have been placing at top tables at recent tournaments? TSHFT was won by a Tau player, a Tau player came in third as well, plus Sean Nayden apparently has been playing Tau, taking 2nd at the Huzzah Hobbies Hammer in the New Year, as well as second in the Glass City GT. I'm especially interested to hear what Nayden is running because he typically makes Jancoran look like a netlister with his innovation.
Sean Naydens list was a Riptide Wing, a Corpsethief Claw and Eldar Cad with 1 Warlock, 2x3 barebones jetbikes as an excuse to take the skathach Forgeworld Wraithknight.
I experimented early on with a Corpsethief as "support." It was definitely effective, but it kind of shoehorns you into a less dynamic play style. That said, it's definitely a chocolate/peanut butter kind of marriage. The CTC is obviously rock hard and will dissuade just about anything from charging directly at you. Meanwhile, Tau provide the range and mobility needed to support the CTC while they trudge along toward wherever they're planning to bash heads. That said, I prefer running mostly Tau, so a ~700pt ally investment is a bit much.
As an aside, I plan to give a Grotesquerie a try as an ally. You still get a bunch of beefy melee guys, but they're more mobile (due to Raiders and/or webway) and cost less. I have an unhealthy fascination with DE Covens.
The Ranged Support Cadre is a winner by me. Anything that lets you field that volume of Broadsides has to be good, right? I've used it several times and was pleased with the results. Keeping your Pathfinders motionless is a bit of a pain, but the formation does allow you to move around with your Broadsides with minimal penalty. One marker hit gets their BS back to normal. It's nice to see some of the other non-Riptide formations getting some use!
Also, a shout out for the Crisis bomb. I knew it had to make an appearance eventually. I'm a bit surprised he isn't rolling with a Stormsurge, though. I guess opposing Wraithknights are just going to be ignored?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I can't speak to Sean, but on the East Coast i've been seeing Reece's netlist (Double Storm-surge FSE CAD + Riptide wing) showing up at top tables surprisingly often again. It seemed to have gone out of vogue for a while, and then boom... I think two people ran it at Goldensprue this past weekend, and elsewhere.
I was at the Goldensprue, it was a great event. Only one guy ran the 'Frankie' list straight off the net. I talked with him quite a bit, he was a former FLGS owner, who had just acquired the whole army from someone getting out of the hobby. The Riptide Wing was splashed into at least 4 lists.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: The most recent GT near me was Goldensprue this last weekend, and friends who attended told me it was a third really fun, or personally crafted lists, and then just a bunch of clone armies pulled from other recent GTs. That just feels so very dull to me as I imagine its always about just guessing and beating the current "meta" at the list-building level, and less-so good generalship at the table.
That ratio seems off. The whole local scene (about 20-25) were there showing off weird lists, lots of hobby progress and 'fluff' lists with some teeth added. The rest were a hodge-podge of competitive/semi-competitive and some Netlist-with-a-Twist entries. The Skavenguard list was hysterical, right down to the smashed open crates of rats for Drop Pods. This event has historically had multiple hobby/sportsmaship/overall prizes, and this year was no different. The other thing that made the event refreshing was that the second day was a Friendly event if you were not in the running for the top of the GT. You could keep playing in the competitive bracket, if you wanted too, but the Friendly was where the fun was. It was a different format than the GT: 1,500 points with literally no restrictions (even Unbound was kosher). There were no points for winning, and you were warned ahead of time that 'unfun' lists would be publicly shamed. That was a non-factor, because everyone I played and watched brought a fun, themed list. The vibe was totally laid back, and allowed you to watch the top 8 slug it out for the win, while still getting a to play yourself. It was a great event, and made me want to go to more 2-day tournaments, if others are as much fun as the Goldensprue!
luke1705 wrote: I'm especially interested to hear what Nayden is running because he typically makes Jancoran look like a netlister with his innovation.
He did run this at the Goldensprue:
All the top 8 lists are up on Loopy's Recap.
yup. that was the list. Not what one might call friendly. Lol. It's barely a Tau list also. Thats one thing that will never stop bugging me. The ITC attempts to introduce soem balance but lets be frank: ITC events are NOT as a rule friendly. I've seen the most absurd things at these events and i have learned to adapt to them. Adapting to a pandoras box is, however, somewhat of a daunting task. But the thing is, this list is not a Tau list. Clearly it isnt. Its an Eldar-kin list if anything but because theres A Riptide Wing in it, it gets to claim its Tau and indeed, it is FORCED to claim it is a Tayu list by the ITC.
The only possible way to address this obvious weirdness and return some semblance of normality to it is to say "hey in an 1850 army, 1200 points has to come from the parent Codex."
Short of that, people can play games with their standings with certain factions. Do I care at the ened of the day a whole bunch? Only insofar as it attacks my sense of order. it just doesnt make sense to call that a Tau list.
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MilkmanAl wrote: I experimented early on with a Corpsethief as "support." It was definitely effective, but it kind of shoehorns you into a less dynamic play style. That said, it's definitely a chocolate/peanut butter kind of marriage. The CTC is obviously rock hard and will dissuade just about anything from charging directly at you. Meanwhile, Tau provide the range and mobility needed to support the CTC while they trudge along toward wherever they're planning to bash heads. That said, I prefer running mostly Tau, so a ~700pt ally investment is a bit much.
As an aside, I plan to give a Grotesquerie a try as an ally. You still get a bunch of beefy melee guys, but they're more mobile (due to Raiders and/or webway) and cost less. I have an unhealthy fascination with DE Covens.
The Ranged Support Cadre is a winner by me. Anything that lets you field that volume of Broadsides has to be good, right? I've used it several times and was pleased with the results. Keeping your Pathfinders motionless is a bit of a pain, but the formation does allow you to move around with your Broadsides with minimal penalty. One marker hit gets their BS back to normal. It's nice to see some of the other non-Riptide formations getting some use!
Also, a shout out for the Crisis bomb. I knew it had to make an appearance eventually. I'm a bit surprised he isn't rolling with a Stormsurge, though. I guess opposing Wraithknights are just going to be ignored?
The Grotesqueris is a lot of win. A lot.
The Ranged Support Cadre is good. I think that it is overlooked because generally the preference is the Drone Net.
Okay guys, I'm going to push a list I posted previously to another level. I've always enjoyed the concept of hyper-agressive lists, so I've been toying around with ways to be mobile and in your opponent's face immediately. One option I like a lot is basically an adaptation of one of the Breacher lists I proposed earlier that more or less subs in a Grotesquerie in Raiders for a Stormsurge. That way, you get some beef to keep your Breachers in the fight while Y'Vahras rock everything else. Wraithknights will be more of an issue without D missiles, but Grotesques should be able to instant death them down if really necessary. I'm not sure the strategy will work without a strong melee presence, hence the Grotesquerie. Wraiths, Wulfen, and Fleshhounds are all speedy options that are easily obtainable via single formations without dropping an unreasonable amount of points. Any thoughts on how that would perform? It's definitely a lot different than most people expect Tau to work.
Just finished a tournament at my FLGS and played a game against genestealers. Good God! Having never played against them and only heard about some of their shenanigans I had a really rough turn 2. He had a bunch of small units shoot me in their "deployment" phase and then in their shooting phase, iirc, and then assaulted me! Lost my OSC to it and a riptide on like turn 2! And then the little buggers ran off into ongoing reserves and did it all over again! Anyone looking at tactics against these guys? The best I could come up with was bubble wrap with fire warriors or kroot maybe and form a huge circle around the big suits.
necron99 wrote: Just finished a tournament at my FLGS and played a game against genestealers. Good God! Having never played against them and only heard about some of their shenanigans I had a really rough turn 2. He had a bunch of small units shoot me in their "deployment" phase and then in their shooting phase, iirc, and then assaulted me! Lost my OSC to it and a riptide on like turn 2! And then the little buggers ran off into ongoing reserves and did it all over again! Anyone looking at tactics against these guys? The best I could come up with was bubble wrap with fire warriors or kroot maybe and form a huge circle around the big suits.
I would think that Supporting Fire would be your friend here, but I guess if everything is getting charged it would overwhelm even Tau's overwatch. I would think castling up your stuff close together and bubble wrapping with cheap troops (like Kroot) would work, but it would surrender board control to your opponent.
necron99 wrote: Just finished a tournament at my FLGS and played a game against genestealers. Good God! Having never played against them and only heard about some of their shenanigans I had a really rough turn 2. He had a bunch of small units shoot me in their "deployment" phase and then in their shooting phase, iirc, and then assaulted me! Lost my OSC to it and a riptide on like turn 2! And then the little buggers ran off into ongoing reserves and did it all over again! Anyone looking at tactics against these guys? The best I could come up with was bubble wrap with fire warriors or kroot maybe and form a huge circle around the big suits.
I would think that Supporting Fire would be your friend here, but I guess if everything is getting charged it would overwhelm even Tau's overwatch. I would think castling up your stuff close together and bubble wrapping with cheap troops (like Kroot) would work, but it would surrender board control to your opponent.
GSC have immense board control anyway, as they can pop up anywhere, so castling up is the way to go I think. Some deep striking unit for late game objective grabbing would be great. Also, GSC hates flamers and anything with Ignores cover really.
So I was contemplating fitting some marker lights into an allied detachment and I had a question that I figured I'd ask. If I upgraded a fire warrior to a champion with target lock, marker light and then gave him 2 marker drones... could he and the drones shoot at a different target than his unit using the target lock? Or is it only the champ... the champ is only a character, so the IC stuff doesn't apply...
war wrote: So I was contemplating fitting some marker lights into an allied detachment and I had a question that I figured I'd ask. If I upgraded a fire warrior to a champion with target lock, marker light and then gave him 2 marker drones... could he and the drones shoot at a different target than his unit using the target lock? Or is it only the champ... the champ is only a character, so the IC stuff doesn't apply...
Only the champ. Target lock lets a model fire at a different target of its unit. Nowhere it states such rules are shared.
I'm not. Joshua Death was one of the generals. Also, Tyranids have won this tournament twice, actually!
The rules for the tournament are that you must use your codex and supplements...no outside allies. So as an individual codex it has always shined. The weird combinations of different factions which 6th Edition sadly introduced has caused some codex's to seem less than they are. this tournament kind of eliminates that and shows you what the codex's might really do against one another. Only one Ambassador per codex fights for dominance in each bracket AND they must face each other in round one, so it began with a mirror match this year (a first).
Tyranids have some really strong options. The Skyblight is really crazy when you consider the Trygon holes thing. Board control is a thing for Tyranids.
Also, apparently the Stormsurge is a very good unit. Very capable of taking out entire units on its own - as long as you use the pulse driver. The blastcannon is too close-range.
The blastcannon is by no means bad but most competitive Tau players take the shorter range PBC or affectionately "The D shotgun." Reason being, by taking the longer ranged driver cannon, you're incentivized to anchor and sling S10 pie plates in the back. Again, not bad at all. But with the shotty, you stay in 22" D range (including movement) and get Stomps in as well, which effectively double your damage output. Additionally, there are some enemies for which D is the only answer, by the shotgun itself or by stomp.
Anyway, don't throw away the cheaper blaster option.
I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon. I don't know the popular competitive choice - haven't seen many Tau lists using Stormsurges at all recently - but both have significant strong points. Obviously, keeping a reusable D weapon around is incredibly useful, but getting within 10" of your target isn't always easy or even possible. I've definitely enjoyed running Stormsurges as ultra-aggressive D shotgun-wielding stomping machines, but I always kind of feel like I'm squandering their ability to spew out ridiculous firepower when I go that route. With that in mind, the pulse driver is awesome for quickly cleaning up units that Tau don't like - grav Cents, Kataphron Destroyers, and bikers come to mind. Always having a blast is a bit of a bummer, but at least you'll often get to shoot it twice per turn!
Personally, I lean towards the pulse driver, in no small part due to its utility with EWO, but as I said, I do enjoy charging around the field stomping and shooting D at things. Typically, the D missiles seem to clean up whatever massive target I need deleted, so the blastcannon loses some of its utility. Now, if I were facing multiple Wraithknights regularly, there's no question I'd be packing D shotguns (and probably more than 1 Stormsurge!). Multiple IKs would likely push me towardsshotgun land, too.
I prefer the pulse driver for sure. It's so great all around, and the D range is just too small for me. The gun has an effective 22" threat range, and there's just too much stuff out there that would LOVE for you to get that close
Source: I run two storm surges and tried the blast cannon more than once. Just didn't find it to be as effective
MilkmanAl wrote: I conflict over the Stormsurge's main weapon. I don't know the popular competitive choice - haven't seen many Tau lists using Stormsurges at all recently - but both have significant strong points. Obviously, keeping a reusable D weapon around is incredibly useful, but getting within 10" of your target isn't always easy or even possible. I've definitely enjoyed running Stormsurges as ultra-aggressive D shotgun-wielding stomping machines, but I always kind of feel like I'm squandering their ability to spew out ridiculous firepower when I go that route. With that in mind, the pulse driver is awesome for quickly cleaning up units that Tau don't like - grav Cents, Kataphron Destroyers, and bikers come to mind. Always having a blast is a bit of a bummer, but at least you'll often get to shoot it twice per turn!
Personally, I lean towards the pulse driver, in no small part due to its utility with EWO, but as I said, I do enjoy charging around the field stomping and shooting D at things. Typically, the D missiles seem to clean up whatever massive target I need deleted, so the blastcannon loses some of its utility. Now, if I were facing multiple Wraithknights regularly, there's no question I'd be packing D shotguns (and probably more than 1 Stormsurge!). Multiple IKs would likely push me towardsshotgun land, too.
Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
I consider it pretty important if you play in GT's.
Jancoran wrote: Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
I consider it pretty important if you play in GT's.
Though I wouldn't disagree that a Stormsurge is one of the only answers Tau have to Magnus, I'm curious about its potential as a liability when considering Magnus's "force one of the enemy units to shoot how you please" power...
Is it just worth the risk? Is Magnus' power of such limited reach that you can almost always get in a good lick or two regardless?
the stormsurge is fast and the range of Magnus is generally 24 inches and 12" mandatory moves in the air. If he wants to STAY in the air he will inevitably come into orbit, The question is will you ground him in time? But without a Stormsurge it is quite unlikely that you can face Magnus without a horde army of your own to swamp him when he does alight.
The Stormsurge is EXCELLENT against ground targets in general, particularly infantry moreso than big things, but his D missiles when activated will take down any bog boyu you need them to.
I heavily favor the Blastcannon. The popular choice in my area is the Driver, but I never have it pull it's weight. Mostly my decision is based on one thing: I need the Stormsurge to focus down things that will not die to normal weight of fire. The Driver is another heavy hitting gun for the Tau; but I need something that can punch a 2++ in the funbags.
Jancoran wrote: Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
This right here. When used in conjunction with Sisters of Silence, the Stormsurge with a Blastcannon and Velocity Tracker deals with so many rough matchups the Tau face, it's hard to pass up for me. The Driver just can't target fliers, and even if it did, it can't contend with a 2++/3++ when they reroll 1s. The D Missiles are great, but getting enough Markerlight hits to use them against a Flier (even if you have a VT on a Driver Surge), is a task in and of itself. The Blastcannon Surge just wants 2 hits for BS5. The Cover from jinking won't usually be better than the Invuln, so you're just fishing for 6s. Combine that with the chance to Stomp if a grounding test is failed, and you can delete a nasty threat that would otherwise be raining havok if ignored. Thankfully Magnus' 'Seize Control' power is a Malediction (unlike the Cabal's) so it can be nullified by a Culexus/SoS bubble.
I heavily favor the Blastcannon. The popular choice in my area is the Driver, but I never have it pull it's weight. Mostly my decision is based on one thing: I need the Stormsurge to focus down things that will not die to normal weight of fire. The Driver is another heavy hitting gun for the Tau; but I need something that can punch a 2++ in the funbags.
Jancoran wrote: Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses one It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
This right here. When used in conjunction with Sisters of Silence, the Stormsurge with a Blastcannon and Velocity Tracker deals with so many rough matchups the Tau face, it's hard to pass up for me. The Driver just can't target fliers, and even if it did, it can't contend with a 2++/3++ when they reroll 1s. The D Missiles are great, but getting enough Markerlight hits to use them against a Flier (even if you have a VT on a Driver Surge), is a task in and of itself. The Blastcannon Surge just wants 2 hits for BS5. The Cover from jinking won't usually be better than the Invuln, so you're just fishing for 6s. Combine that with the chance to Stomp if a grounding test is failed, and you can delete a nasty threat that would otherwise be raining havok if ignored. Thankfully Magnus' 'Seize Control' power is a Malediction (unlike the Cabal's) so it can be nullified by a Culexus/SoS bubble.
I heavily favor the Blastcannon. The popular choice in my area is the Driver, but I never have it pull it's weight. Mostly my decision is based on one thing: I need the Stormsurge to focus down things that will not die to normal weight of fire. The Driver is another heavy hitting gun for the Tau; but I need something that can punch a 2++ in the funbags.
Jancoran wrote: Stormsurge is the answer to the WraithKnight. it EFFICIENTLY kills the WraithKNight and any Super heavy really, while still being able to contribute otherwise. The TSHFT tournament saw a dual Surge list take second place (I fought it). My own list uses it. It is also one of the only answers you have to Magnus. Stomp is a thing and you CAN end Magnus with it.
This right here. When used in conjunction with Sisters of Silence, the Stormsurge with a Blastcannon and Velocity Tracker deals with so many rough matchups the Tau face, it's hard to pass up for me. The Driver just can't target fliers, and even if it did, it can't contend with a 2++/3++ when they reroll 1s. The D Missiles are great, but getting enough Markerlight hits to use them against a Flier (even if you have a VT on a Driver Surge), is a task in and of itself. The Blastcannon Surge just wants 2 hits for BS5. The Cover from jinking won't usually be better than the Invuln, so you're just fishing for 6s. Combine that with the chance to Stomp if a grounding test is failed, and you can delete a nasty threat that would otherwise be raining havok if ignored. Thankfully Magnus' 'Seize Control' power is a Malediction (unlike the Cabal's) so it can be nullified by a Culexus/SoS bubble.
The skyfire Markerlights can come from the Drone Net
Jancoran wrote: The skyfire Markerlights can come from the Drone Net
I must be missing something. How do the Drones from a Drone Net get Skyfire? I usually rely on Tetra's TL-Markerlights or a Commander with a C&C Node to TL some Drones for tagging FMCs.
I sort of figured it was obvious that Stormsurges were our only decent way to deal with Wraithknights, so needless to say, I agree. My issue was whether or not you need more than just the D missiles to deal with them. I haven't in the past, but I've honestly never played a list with more than 1 Wraithknight (ITC rules). 4 D shots at BS 5 with ignores cover is enough to at least get a Wraithknight weakened enough for everything else I'm packing to bring it down.
Magnus is another story. Like Wraithknights, out D weaponry is the only thing that can reliably bring him down. However, he's a lot easier to neutralize by taking out his supporting cast. Seize Control is a huge issue when running a Surge and a strong argument against using the blast cannon, in my opinion. That is, it's way better to eat a s10 blast than a couple D shots. However, if the Culexus/SoS nullify that power, it's kind of a non-issue. I'd have my psychic protection within range of my Stormsurge anyway. I may have to start giving the D shotgun more table time just to see how it goes.
I use the D-Shotgun because they ARE coming for us.
who tries to outshoot Tau? Honestly its a fools errand to try. So the enemies who can ACTUALLY beat you as Tau will be those that are aggressive. Tau do not like aggression. Not one bit.
The Stormsurge is pretty well literally the only competent close combat combatant you have so right away its more useful than just its D missiles. the D Missiles make it the no brainer that it is. And when facing a massive number of things as Genestealers and Skyblights can bring, well you best have volume and more volume of fire which the Stormsurge brings.
All in all I find it very hard to imagine competing in the ITC without one. Can you DO it? Absolutely. There are many ways to skin the cat but you are definitely swimming upstream when you voluntarily give away your answers to Magnus, WtraithKnights and now Genestealer cults who "do" orks better than orks in some ways.
I rarely if ever plant my Pylons, so I get less volume out of the beast than some do, but i get a level of board presence with it and mobility that is outstaning. All in all, I just find it to be a very dynamic part of a Tau army without being ridiculous to kill. you can plink it to death, but while it stands, its a force.
MilkmanAl wrote: However, he's a lot easier to neutralize by taking out his supporting cast.
My problem is that his supporting cast in the (Rehati War Sect) are 3 Swooping FMCs each with a 3++ rerolling 1s. Kicking Big Red in the yammies is worth striving for. You are right, if they are dragging any ground-based units in tow, those have to go.
MilkmanAl wrote: I may have to start giving the D shotgun more table time just to see how it goes.
What I pay attention with my Blastconnon Surge is, how is it performing in a sub optimal matchup? The FMC situation is great for the Blastcannon, but how does it do in a situation where the Driver would be the better choice. My experience has so far shown me that the Blastcannon does an admirable job measuring up, except where the AP2 of the Driver would be needed, and also in long range range situations. I have been able to use Ion Accelerators, Smash, Sisters of Silence and more numerous high AP shooting to work around the AP2 situations pretty well. The range discrepancy was something I was already working around, for the most part. Markerlights reach so far on Turn 1, so my effective range for high outputs of damage was already limited. Later in the game, as the Markerlights can advance, the Driver would be able to take more devistating advantage of it's range, but the Blastcannon can advance more durably across the field than the Markerlights. The most fun moment for me with the Blastcannon, is when I get the best of both worlds: Anchored with plenty to shoot at! Lobbing 4 Str9 Large Blasts, and all the smalls arms fire is often pure mayhem.
Overall, I don't think either choice can be faulted as superior or inferior, but mostly need dependent. You can pick which one you like or fits your playstyle/list needs. Two great options to have, plus the two guns are easy to swap on the model itself.
I think you should give the Blastcannon a good try, in the end, you can't go wrong either way.
When I've used the blast cannon in the past, it has always been in a list with an Y'Vahra or two, so dealing with 2+ targets hasn't been much of an issue. It's obviously easier to dump a S10 pie plate on TWolves or Centurions or whatever, but as you say, other sources of AP2 should be able to pick up the slack. In those matchups, the Surge gets repurposed a bit. I know it's durable, but I'm not a huge fan of sticking it in combat with things that are only vulnerable to stomps and pack a big punch. That said, I e only ever had a Stormsurge die once, so maybe I need to grow some balls and get his thrusters dirty.
Question, off-topic: What is better support for a CAD against WarCon; a 3-Keel OSC or a Surge with Drone Net? The former is fewer points so could probably throw in a solo fusion crisis or something of that ilk.
CAD would be a bunch of min breacher squads in fish to take advantage of his lack of obsec and maybe a y'vahra.
If you don't already have a Stormsurge, I'd go that direction, but the OSC is virtually made to stop a War Convocation. S7 is good enough to easily down the various vehicles and double out the Infiltrators and Ruststalkers. It's also useful but not great against Knights.
He also brings the kastellan robots so i'm leaning stormsurge but that really puts a lot of pressure on my D missiles to take out the knight early. That gatling cannon is nasty. I'm definitely bringing a canoptek harvest to bearhug his grav units.
Wraiths will be awesome for that matchup. You'll certainly be glad they're around, if for no other reaosn than to screen things from impending Infiltrators and Ruststalkers (which are very underrated units, in my opinion). The gatling cannon honestly shouldn't be THAT bad for you. Just about everything you have that you don't want taking a lot of high-strength fire has a 2+ save. Still, Knights don't play nice with Tau, so that thing needs to go ASAP, as you say.
Post LVO, do you all feel like Tau are really true large-event competitors at this point? Because I think they're in the Gladius and Eldar tier of competitors; enough to beat up on most, but just short of true winners. Seems like that is reserved for Deathstars, Warcon and Daemons.
I've tried crafting lists that ignore obsec and just kill things; but they're rendered useless by psychic defensive powers from telepathy and biomancy. I've tried going all out MSU, which fwiw, makes for some really fun, interesting lists but still does MSU worse than Gladius. What to do?
TL;DR: What do we need to do to compete? Is it even possible?
If Tau is in the Gladius and Eldar tier of competitors, that's completely fine. Either one of those armies could win a GT. The reason why we don't feel like they consistently do is because more of the top players transitioned away from those two armies, but Eldar is very much still in it, and if battle company can eek out a win/tie/decent loss in the (usually one) kill point mission, they're doing great.
Tau has all the tools to compete and is consistently present in the top 3 or top 10 of big events.
Well, what about Andrew Gonyo? Great general and As I understand it he's still piloting Tau but only GT final made was Renegade which is not ITC and was Taunar vs Taunar.
I'd agree with Tau being roughly on par with BC and Eldar. I'm actually fairly surprised that there wasn't a better representation of Eldar and Tau in the top 8. Oddly, I feel like straight Tau match up favorably against the Magnus and artillery lists that littered the LVO field. War Convocation is definitely a powerful list, but that's another decent match-up for Tau, even though they've gotten a recent boost. The deathstars are a serious problem, though, and if you allow Magnus to get rolling, you're done.
If I were to counter the current competitive meta, I'd probably roll with a dual Stormsurge/Firestream Wing list. That gives you the ability to D-punch Magnus and Wraithknights with ease, torrent down hordes, and stomp your way through deathstars, if needed.
I think it's obvious that game skill matters, but if we're discussing being at the top of a major tournament, isn't it a bit of a given that the players are skilled?
A skilled player picks the army that they can win with. The lack of Tau in the winners circle at GT's is a testament to what winners pick to win with. Just saying.
The Shrike wrote: Post LVO, do you all feel like Tau are really true large-event competitors at this point? Because I think they're in the Gladius and Eldar tier of competitors; enough to beat up on most, but just short of true winners. Seems like that is reserved for Deathstars, Warcon and Daemons.
I've tried crafting lists that ignore obsec and just kill things; but they're rendered useless by psychic defensive powers from telepathy and biomancy. I've tried going all out MSU, which fwiw, makes for some really fun, interesting lists but still does MSU worse than Gladius. What to do?
TL;DR: What do we need to do to compete? Is it even possible?
I feel like just as top players have stretched allies to the limit, and stolen Riptide Wings for literally any army that can take them, Tau competitive play might want to try more outside the box allies to see what shakes out. Even before Nayden showed up at LVO with them, I had been painting up 30 Sisters of Silence expecting them + Bunker w/Escape Hatch to help complicate the psychic heavy meta. Likewise I am running Basilius Cawl and a Holy Requisitioner formation with a FSE CAD for an upcoming event too.
Which formation provides some good melee capabilities that go well with Tau lists? Canoptek Harvest seems to be popular. Does anyone use any other formations?
Which formation provides some good melee capabilities that go well with Tau lists? Canoptek Harvest seems to be popular. Does anyone use any other formations?
In the past I have done really well with the Eldar Aspect Host (I believe its called), which gives you three units of potentially BS5 Warp Spiders. They're awesome objective grabbers, annoying to remove bodies (something Tau often lacks a volume of), and have decent enough shooting that they can't be ignored in some match-ups.
jeffersonian000 wrote: A skilled player picks the army that they can win with. The lack of Tau in the winners circle at GT's is a testament to what winners pick to win with. Just saying.
SJ
I'd say he picks an army - not necessarily the army - he can win with, but point taken. The proof is in the pudding. I'm sure there were plenty of skilled players who brought Tau lists to the LVO.
As for melee Tau allies, I feel like Canoptek Harvest and a Grotesquerie are the two best options with Wulfen and Gorepack also being viable. Sisters of Silence pack a reasonable punch and provide the psychic defense we need so desperately, so that'd likely be my choice in a competitive scene.
If you were looking to get freaky with allies, you could definitely do a lot worse than a core of an Ethereal or Commander, 2 Crisis Suits, Marker Drones or Tetras, and 2 Stormsurges. That's in the neighborhood of 1200 points, depending on amounts and upgrades, so you've got plenty of room to play.
I think the problem is that few formations have the "all in one(wonder)" quality that Riptide Wing brings to other armies. As its somewhat Marker-independent, it doesn't need anything else Tau to shine as brightly as it does for us.
Borrowing stuff like a Wulfen Murder-pack is awesome... but they shine brightest wish Psychic buffs, meaning FURTHER costs in allies.
I'm with you Milkman... Sisters are a great add because they'll contribute what they do best with no tax, and minimal expenditure.
Deathstars will continue to give us fits. ;-p
Here's a question for the thread. In a Magnus heavy meta, which statistically is a better Magnus Killer... a full OSC with Vector Trackers on the Ghostkeels, or a Riptide Wing with HBC and Vector Trackers?
I think it's obvious that game skill matters, but if we're discussing being at the top of a major tournament, isn't it a bit of a given that the players are skilled?
Its a given that skilled players show up. But as you can see some very skilled players had to play other skilled players and so sometimes even the best if matched up early enough can get knocked out by equals and so on.
Here is my thought: winning that many games is EXTREMELY difficult. Dice are a thing. I was one die roll away from a 5-1 finish at my last Major of the season. I got cheated in the first round out of 4 points which was equally annoying and made a very significant difference in my placing. All these things happen. That is why i have so often said that the best General is the one who makes the dice the least important it is possible to make them. Even then, you cannot guarantee much at an event of this size with as many die rolls as your forces will be called upon to make.
Your best bet is to secure your place in the standings long before the Las vegas Open which grants an enormous amount of points and can turn the whole ITC upper crust on its head.
This was my first year of actually even bothering with the ITC. I played in a lot of tournaments beforehand but this was the first time I actually decided to compete in ITC events or to hold or promote them. I can tell you that even as well as i did, you are always one or two tiny rolls or decisions away from a victory at the top table and its no shame to lose to some of those guys. You can go 4-2 and be pretty happy when your opponents were ranked as highly as they are at times.
So the final standings certainly are worthy of all the respect we give them but just keep in mind: a lot of AWFULLY good generals had to have a bad die roll or two go against them in order for number one to be where he is, also. But as i say: the one left standing is the one who made his own bad luck matter less. =)
I think it has to be said as well that whether it be through summoning, or free wargear, or replenishing units, getting extra points without paying for them has become close to essential to compete at the top. I'll be giving the firestream wing a try, although even that seems like a sorry excuse for the "free points" mechanic. After all, with how many games were only going 3-4 turns, you may get to Rearm and Refuel once. May.
I now realize that I'd assumed the ITC was falling in line with the GWFAQ which clarified that you can have your Firestream Wing enter and leave play on the same turn, a ruling that emerged well after the ITC declared that you must wait a turn to leave, when that may not be the case. If you still have to wait a turn and use the Firestream Wing as a seeker missile battery, that's quite a lot less useful. It's the massive drone generation that makes the formation worthwhile, even in those 4-turn games.
MilkmanAl wrote: I now realize that I'd assumed the ITC was falling in line with the GWFAQ which clarified that you can have your Firestream Wing enter and leave play on the same turn, a ruling that emerged well after the ITC declared that you must wait a turn to leave, when that may not be the case. If you still have to wait a turn and use the Firestream Wing as a seeker missile battery, that's quite a lot less useful. It's the massive drone generation that makes the formation worthwhile, even in those 4-turn games.
I think the updated/finalized Tau FAQ revoked that draft ruling, didn't it?
Oh...then I guess I hadn't seen the revision of the draft or something. The last one I saw allowed you to return and leave on the same turn, and I thought that was put out fairly recently. Oh well. One more formation to the scrap heap. No wonder there weren't many Firestreams at LVO.
MilkmanAl wrote: No wonder there weren't many Firestreams at LVO.
Of the three (Primary Faction) Tau lists in the top 50 at the LVO, one was running the Firestream. Condidering the poor showing in the final standings (despite being the third most taken Faction) that should tell us he was doing something right with it. He didn't have a Riptide Wing either, it was an interesting build.
I think the problem with ranking how the top Tau player performed at LVO is that its hard to gauge, considering this LVO everyone and their uncle was rolling up with Renegade Artillery as the new "me too!!!" tech of the season.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I think the problem is that few formations have the "all in one(wonder)" quality that Riptide Wing brings to other armies. As its somewhat Marker-independent, it doesn't need anything else Tau to shine as brightly as it does for us.
Borrowing stuff like a Wulfen Murder-pack is awesome... but they shine brightest wish Psychic buffs, meaning FURTHER costs in allies.
I'm with you Milkman... Sisters are a great add because they'll contribute what they do best with no tax, and minimal expenditure.
Deathstars will continue to give us fits. ;-p
Here's a question for the thread. In a Magnus heavy meta, which statistically is a better Magnus Killer... a full OSC with Vector Trackers on the Ghostkeels, or a Riptide Wing with HBC and Vector Trackers?
Thanks for this and to all others that replied. I like how the wulfen look and know they are beasts in cc, but it's true that they need psychic buffs to really make a difference. I'm looking something that can just be tacked on (like Riptide wing is tacked on many lists) a list for some counter assault duty, so it should be self sufficient. I like the dual role of Sisters of Silence too and I shall look into those.
I don't think the FSW is useless without the ability to dodge in and out at will, but it's not a competitive choice under those circumstances. 99/100 IA Riptides agree that you can do better than 6 seeker missiles every other turn for 168 points.
I'm not surprised that the Riptide Wing got so much attention since it's big and flashy and plugs in well to just about any list as a sort of fire-and-forget addition. However, I find it strange that Hunter Contingents didn't get more play. The potential for MSU-ish lists with army-wide buffs is strong meta defense, and everyone loves Tau that shoot even better, right? I know that losing ObSec hurts some, but we don't tend to bring the most durable troops in the world. It also seems like the whole field (understandably) had a major hard-on for Y'Vahras, so that may have contributed, as well. I figured there would be plenty of plug-and-play formation lists, but I thought there'd be a few more oddballs in the field. Maybe next year.
the Y'Varah is definitely silly good and I fought one at the Bay Area Open. He got lucky on his saves but still, they performed so far above their points.
Jancoran, I have two Y'Vahras but haven't deployed them yet. Do you recommend Stims? They get so expensive so fast; especially running two. They start to push other things out of the list. I feel like they are too fragile to be the main damage dealers, but if I fit a Stormsurge and marker support in I have very little left and have to get decent obsec. Does an ideal Y'Vahra list bypass a Stormsurge and try to lean in to the concept of no markers? I could go double Y'Vahra and run an OSC with it...Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
I always put stims on mine. They have fewer wounds and are going to be up front in harm's way. Not to mention they're a priority target. It's worth the 35pts.
I like the list you've cobbled together, but I don't think competitive lists without a Stormsurge are much good these days. Your list will basically just have to ignore Wraithknights and will struggle badly against Magnus. That said, you're in pretty decent shape against the Renegade artillery spam that seems to be gaining favor now and will at least have a fighting chance against most deathstars (until they get into combat with you since you don't have anything that stomps). If it weren't for those few popular choices, you'd be in great shape to dominate.
I ran 2 yvahra at lvo and I think stims are not worth it. With so many d weapons in the game you hardly get to use stims. Look at rvarnas. I wasn't sold on them before but I am now and so we're my opponents. They really clear out deathstars, vehicles, and bike units. And they are so durable.
The job of the Yvahra is to fly up, kill a high priority target and hopefully get its points back, and do it's best to weather a turn of return fire. I think with this Metra points are better spent on velocity tracker.
R'Varna has been on my "to buy" list for a while now. Ap4 is meh but 4 Ap4 large blasts is awesome. Later Grav Devastators! And unless they're invis'd they'll eat through a bark bark star as well.
I've been mulling R'Varnas recently, myself, and I keep trying to convince myself they're worthwhile. 260 point buys you a whole lot of high-strength, medium AP shooting in a Tau army, so that's not the easiest task. Notably, 260 is about 1.5 HBC Riptides. Most deathstars that I can think of are composed of things that''ll take 2 hits from the blasts. 4 models is a reasonable (if not slightly generous) amount to assume a large blast hits, so you'd get 16 hits from your R'Varna. That's slightly less than the same points' worth of Broadsides and just more than nova-charged HBC Riptides. Against clustered artillery, you'll be dropping wounds like crazy, and even though they still get their 3+, you'll take them out quickly. In short, R'Varnas are quite a lot worse than the alternatives if you're not shooting things that take advantage of cluster fire but start getting awesome against large, dense targets.
The real question is whether or not the decreased firepower is worth the extra durability. I'd actually contend that an R'Varna vs 1.5 Riptides is roughly a wash in terms of toughness, but both are clearly superior to 4 Broadsides or even 2 Ghostkeels. Personally, I think I'd prefer more HBC Riptides most of the time since they're a bit more flexible and can hit flying things. Rending is also nice, even though they risk hurting themselves every time they fire. If you find yourself constantly facing setups like Brett Perkins's skyshield of mortar doom, though, the R'Varna is going to rip some heads off.
Few things are going to be as efficient as a Riptide Wing; but I sold all of my conventional Riptides because they drain the fun out of games for opponents. I know there's no room for mercy in GTs but I'm just exhausted of easy button's like the old buffmander or Riptide Wing. I want to try to perform decently in competitive environments while taking lists that are a little off kilter. For example, we can give Gladius a run for its MSU money with a double CAD list; one filled with Breachers in fish; the other with solo suits. Or taking R'Varna; or trip y-tides. We have a strong, diverse book, (conventional) Riptides just seem boring to me.
The Shrike wrote: Jancoran, I have two Y'Vahras but haven't deployed them yet. Do you recommend Stims? They get so expensive so fast; especially running two. They start to push other things out of the list. I feel like they are too fragile to be the main damage dealers, but if I fit a Stormsurge and marker support in I have very little left and have to get decent obsec. Does an ideal Y'Vahra list bypass a Stormsurge and try to lean in to the concept of no markers? I could go double Y'Vahra and run an OSC with it...Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
I fought this and it was pretty good. It was the Riptide Wing, of course and three of those Yvarah. He was playing his Commander incorrectly, allowing his "Forge World" drones to benefit from his Drone Controller, which they cannot. this actually impacted our game so no telling what might have happeend had he not. But in any event the basic idea is sound. Less models to move in a tournament setting is also generally better for making sure you get to the end of the game.
Has anyone bothered to run a troop-heavy list before? I'm thinking of essentially spamming Fire Warriors in a Hunter Contingent so they get 12" supporting fire and (usually) an extra BS. The concept list I've got going also runs a VSG (switch to Aegis line?) and a CAD for an Ethereal. Those FW turn into quite a bargain at 9pts apiece. There's an IA Riotide and a blastcannon Surge in there for tougher targets that s5 spam won't stop and a unit of sniper Kroot for the odd grounded Demon Prince, Hive Tyrant, or Magnus.
I worry that there's not a lot of high-strength available to punch through vehicles, so BC may be a tough match. Deathstars are always a problem, but taking 50 s5 overwatch shots, probably with some marker support, is enough to give just about any unit pause. There's also a Sisters of Silence unit available for debuffing and some minor counter-charge ability. Whatcha think? I'm still working on a list, but I'll edit one in as soon as I Brainstorm a little further.
Generally speaking, the FW and supporting cast will deploy centrally and hug the VSG, while the Riptide and Stormsurge will gun down priority targets and push/refuse a flank. The flamer suits, as always, are just objective grabbers. Kroot can either move forward for extra pressure or sit with the infantry wall for some anti-MC support, as above. Even though there's a whole lot of protection for a Stormsurge to anchor, I felt like the blastcannon was the wiser choice for this list to to the relative paucity of high-strength firepower to neutralize tough targets. It's a fairly static army, but pushing the middle with so much S5 shooting should allow reasonable board control.
I think the only time I ever felt good about massed Firewarriors was them taken in tandem with the Tau Line/Gunrig, etc... It at no point felt very competitive, but they felt like a solid inclusion in a list like that.
I'm normally one to buck common strategy when it becomes considered "mandatory", but I feel like the FSE solo-Crisis troops really are an instance of the "right" choice. We just have so many incredible things to spend points on, that I feel like cutting "pretty great" things down to the bone.
I'd worry that the above list would see the Y'vahra, rightly, singled-out as a threat, and killed... while the rest of the list has absolutely no punch vs. anything particularly tough. As Milkman is fond of saying, a competitive Tau list without a Stormsurge is already missing the tools to deal with some of the most common threats to a Tau army. I HATE the notion of an "auto-include", but if there is one... its probably Stormsurge, at this particular juncture in competitive 40k.
I've had a lot of experience with Breacher lists and am confident saying that they're at least in the competitive mix. Breachers are massively underrated, in my opinion. You have to build around them to a large extent, but you'll reap the rewards of doing so.
Fire warriors are another story. They don't do anything unique like Breachers do, but the basic formations benefit them quite a lot. Extended range supporting fire and an extra BS are a huge deal for your cheap piddling basic troopers. Running a bunch of FW certainly isn't as sexy (or easy) as taking a Riptide, but you also get 20 dudes for the same cost. If you can bring their durability up some, it'll help level the field a lot. It's probably better to just roll with a Riptide Wing like everyone else, but it's worth giving other stuff a shot from time to time. I've never heard of anyone seriously trying to make Tau troops work at all, and as I mentioned, I've rolled with Breacher lists pretty effectively...even though I agree with you.
Bringing multiple units to the table puts you at risk for getting piecemealed, but it also gives you more board presence. You do get more raw firepower, though, and may gain a bit of an advantage in capturing objectives. That much additional board presence can really work in your favor. Don't underestimate the ability to run then shoot. Your FW blob can scoot across the board reasonably quickly that way, and you'll be able to get within 15" for massive kill age or out of threat range quite a lot more easily with that extra d6" movement every turn. The more I think about it, the more excited I am to give it a shot. I don't think I'll blow any minds, but it seems like it could be very strong with the right attention to movement and spacing and whatnot.
MilkmanAl wrote: Has anyone bothered to run a troop-heavy list before?.
The last two tournaments I won with Tau this last year were with this list, which easily could feature a third unit a Firewarriors and another Cadre Fireblade (But after playing it I wanted more markerlights and changed it to Sniper Drones). Dont know if it would be considered "troop heavy" but the Fire Warriors certainly shined in it This was before the Grenade nerf so I need to change it a bit.
Firewarriors in Gunrigs are certainly quite resistant and, if you spread them well, you can even grab 2 objectives (I believe a triangle formation would cover the biggest area)
Vector Strike wrote: Firewarriors in Gunrigs are certainly quite resistant and, if you spread them well, you can even grab 2 objectives (I believe a triangle formation would cover the biggest area)
The Fire Warriors work famously with a Cadre Faireblade and an Ethereal. The Ethereal is equally potent when working on the Sniper Drones. Obviously the heavy horsepower of the large guns on the rigs are gotten at a relatively good price and reasonably tough enough to force the enemy to do some work to silence them.
The Markerlights make the force dangerously good at utilizing the StormSurge and the Gunrigs make you think twice about focusing solely on the much harder to kill StormSurge. The overall effect has been pretty darn decent. As always, like all Tau Armies, they struggle against Psykers (thus the Talisman, which doubles as an invul save). My overall satisfaction with the force is pretty high. I mean obviously winning a couple tournaments never hurts ones opinion of anything.
My scariest matchup was against the Emperors Fist Artillery company. So much ignores cover pain. Second scariest was against Spammed Flyrants. I had to really play well against that.
I've been trying to figure out a way to properly do Crisis Suit spam, and while I've never actually put it on the tabletop, I feel like Tau troop obsec spam is just inferior to what most other armies can put out. One 2W 3+ model is not exactly difficult to get rid of. Without some formation bonus that allows you to hone multiple units' firepower, either with an extra BS or pseudo-doom, you relegate yourself to simply being good at shooting rather than awesome at shooting. Considering we have no assault or psychic phases, good at shooting won't cut it. Marines can do the mediocre shooting obsec thing because they're more durable and have more units. GSC can do it because they bring a bajillion dudes. Tau are stuck with less durability and fewer units than both. That's not our strength.
I like the idea of Gunrigs a lot and would use them more often if the Gunfort was a legal ITC formation. I could definitely handle having a Commander with various buffs and a VT rocking out a few railgun shots. Fireblades are all well and good, but I tend to be running around with my FW a fair amount, screening things and capturing objectives and whatnot.
Yeah, against other MSU, like Gladius, our version of MSU is fine. It's up against better shooting armies like renegades or warp spider spam that it struggles. Tau are just in tough spot right now. We're very good against many builds, but the tippy top we can't seem to touch without the Big Tuna. By the way, what do you guys think of this alternate monster mash list, sans riptide wing:
Farsight CAD
Ethereal
Monat
Monat
Y'Vahra
Y'Vahra
R'Varna
Stormsurge: Blaster, AFP, EWO, VT
Ghostkeel Wing
3x1 Ghostkeel w Raker, Fusion
Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones
Total: 1850
The surge goes cheap with no shield but has Stealth from the GKW. Y'Vahras do what they do, R'Varna I think is super sneaky good especially against all the Cult Mech/Skitarii, Renegade artillery and jetbike/bike spam. Thoughts?
Hey gang, I've got a last minute game v Sisters of Battle coming up tomorrow. I highly suspect St Celestine will be there, but I'm not sure the rest of the composition.
I've done the.math, it looks like about 140 non-AP 2 wounds are needed to remove her, which would work out to about 3 turns of a 3 man Riptide Wing kitted with HBC and SMS (incl 1 Nova'd Hailfire) as well as a 3 Ghostkeel Raker/Burst Cannon and 2x3 Man Stealth Suits with Burst Cannon OSC focus firing on her.
I, unfortunately, don't have any Kroot, so I can't effectively tarpit her. The other option is just to stay highly mobile and kite her around the battlefield with JSJ and kill the rest of the army.
Any suggestions or other key units I need to look out for?
I like the list overall, but I feel like the Ghostkeel Wing might not be the best choice. There's certainly nothing wrong with just taking Ghostkeels for their own sake, but You'll probably have to work to make the stealth bubble effective for you. Most of your units are highly mobile and will be unable to hide in cover and do their respective jobs at the same time. Maybe go with an OSC at the expense of the R'Varna? That's a bit of a shame, though. The R'Varna deserves some love. Give it a whirl, and if the stealth works for you, leave it be!
For Sisters, peel open the transports ASAP, and kite them like a mofo. They've got a ton of melta to knock out your big dudes, so denying mobility is key. As for Celestine, she's crazy hard to kill, so unless you can stomp or D her away with relative ease, try to pick off the other models in her unit before trying to take her on. You're better off dismantling the rest of the army instead of dumping fire into her.
I'm enjoying a weekend work day and thinking back to the armor spam idea we were kicking around awhile back. Given the current meta of demons and Riptides and scatterbikes, oh my! AV13 (and AV12, to some extent) is actually reasonably durable. You'll get eaten by Renegades artillery lists, but them's the breaks. I seriously doubt you could make yourself competitive, but you'd catch a few people out, for sure. Try this on for size:
Okay, so ObSec MSU Tau spam...how to make it work? Our troops generally kind of blow at holding objectives, and we don't have the benefit of tons of free stuff like some other armies. Fortunately, Crisis Suits make up for durability with mobility. The following is the best I could come up with. It was a slow 24hrs, okay?
That's 1841, and I'm not really sure what to do with the points. It's a silly list, to be sure, but don't sleep on the possibility of 24 torrent flamers. That alone will give you a substantial amount of control over everything within 12" of your Pipes, which could end up being most of the midfield. A little Hailfire action will deal with heavy armor, and the Stormsurge, as always, is for taking down opposing big dudes.
You've read the FAQ for Flamers and Supporting Fire, right?
Q: How does Supporting Fire work if the unit has a flamer
which is out of range?
A: As long as a unit is eligible to fire Supporting Fire
and is equipped with one or more flamers, they can use
them as if they were also being charged.
Because it would make your list a hell of a lot meaner as part of a Hunter Cadre.
12" range for you to engage as part of a Supporting Fire, plus you getting Torrent. Much lols can be had.
Wow, no joke. I remember having read that but didn't process it in the context of this list. You can't spam nearly as many flamers that way, though, and they wouldn't be obsec.
Digression: I love Breachers; and usually I run them in fish in a CAD with Y-tides in support. Is it worth giving up Obsec to abuse the movement and BS bonus of a Hunter Cadre?
Movement: 6" Fish move, 6" disembark, Run+Shoot 5" S6 AP3. So average 20" threat range.
Shooting: Add an Ethereal for Storm of Fire bonus and it is ON. Besides, Fish fires+Drones detach and fire+Breachers = +1 BS.
Resilience: 12" Ld Bonus from Ethereal, 12" Supporting Fire, Disruption Pods + Ghostkeel Wing in support for 2+ jink. GWFAQ means Breachers are still at full BS!
Anyway, I'm going to try it but eager to hear your thoughts.
A Breacher-focused HC? Why not? You listed the reasons it'd be useful. I actually haven't gone that route before with my Breacher lists, opting instead either for the Fast bonus of the Counterstrike Cadre or obsec, but the HC is a fine way to go about things.
1849, total. Not exactly singularly focused on Breachers, but they still feature prominently. You could also switch around things a bit to have an OSC instead of the GW and/or include a minimal CAD for an Ethereal.
I couldn't figure out how to squeeze in an Ethereal; but the Storm of Fire bonus is probably superfluous, and giving up that VP can be the difference in ITC missions, and not in a good way. (Not that I play in ITC events, I have a 1-year old lol; I live vicariously through you all and play in my den )
Anyway, here's what I came up with for the Hunter Cadre Breachers.
Spoiler:
Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre
Commander: Iridium, Command and Control Node, 2x Missile Pod, Target Lock, Drone Controller, 2x Marker Drones
Monat: 2x Flamer
4x5 Breachers, Fish
6x Marker Drones
Stormsurge: Pulse Driver, AFP, EWO, Shields, VT
OSC
3x Keels: CIRs, Flamers, 2x Target Lock, 1x CFDS
3x Stealths
3x Stealths
Total: 1848
The Stealth bonus of the GKW is great, and so is 3 units of Keels instead of 1; but the OSC is just better. And a Breacher list needs AT so that the grunts can focus on personnel. I went flamers on the Keels thanks to Kanluwen's insights!
Meanwhile, care to consider the latest version of my ITC list should I ever get out to an event?
Spoiler:
FSE CAD
Ethereal
2x5 Breachers, Fish (Can't help myself! I love 'em)
Monat: 2x Flamer
Monat: 2x Flamer
Monat: 2x Flamer
Y'Vahra
Y'Vahra
Y'Vahra
R'Varna
R'Varna
Null Maiden Task Force
3x5 Sisters of Silence
1844
My rationale here is, anything I can't kill, I can blind. Riptide Wing come to mind, so do deathstars. The Y-tides bound forward and just maim, kill and burn. Stormsurges? Wraithknights? IKs? No problem. Renegades? Meet R'Varna x2. WarCon? This list is their worst nightmare. The R'Varnas pile wounds on their specialized targets. Breachers play cleanup; fish score. Sisters are my Magnus/BarkBark Insurance. They're not half-bad speedbumps either. I figure mu worst nightmare is actually a double Stormsurge list with top turn. Those D missiles will make me put all my MCs in reserve. If I roll poorly, I could be tabled. And even so, if I can't blind the Surges the turn I come in, I'll just have delayed the inevitable. Thoughts?
The HC Breachers seems solid to me. You're missing the fast attack-ish choice, but that's nothing some gear rearrangement can't fix. An issue with HC Breachers, it seems, is that you're neither fast (like the CS Cadre) nor heavily armored (like you would be with dpods and GKW). That could potentially be crippling, despite the extended threat range.
As for the tournament list, go for it, brother. Blind those Wraithknights! Given the "theme" of your list, if you want to call it that, the only change I think I'd make would be to switch out a flamer suit for 4 more Breachers to make those units a credible threat and take further advantage of your Ethereal.
P.S.: I have a 10-week old who screams constantly, so I feel your pain! My gaming days came to an exceptionally abrupt halt not too long ago.
Oh, I had paid for 6 Marker Drones, just forgot to type them in.
As for the ITC list, I'm just throwing things at the wall to be different. The typical Riptide Wing or Double Surge doesn't seem to be getting us into the top 8 of the big events (Adepticon, LVO, BAO, NOVA etc); and the Big Tuna is normally banned so what to do right?
OK so I'm doing a tournament next month and looking at adding in an ally to an 1850 list. The main list is loosely:
Retaliation Cadre -
1 X Commander with 2 weapons, drone controller, Stim, 2 marker drones
1 X Riptide with Ion
1 X Broadside
1 X Crisis 2 weapons
1 X Crsis 2 weapons
1 X Crisis 2 weapons, target lock, 2 marker drones
CAD -
1 X HQ (either Ethereal, Cadre Fireblade, Darkstrider)
1 X (Strike team/or Breachers)
1 X Kroot
Maybe 1 X Pathfinders
1 X Yvahra with EWO, Stim
1X Storm surge with blast cannon, EWO, shield
Maybe 1 X 3 Sniper drones , 2 Marksman (Bs5 Makerlights)
Maybe 1 X Skyray
Maybe 1 X Shieldwall (thinking about Fireblade with Firewarriors on it, sniper drone marksmen may fit too)
So for my choices of ally, I am looking at either the:
1 X Culexus Assassin
(140 pts)
Or
1 X Farseer on jetbike
1 X 3 Windriders with Scatter lasers
(196 pts)
So basically the choice is either taking the anti psyker infiltrator, for less points, or taking a psyker of of my own with some complimentary scatter lasers. Which would you take with the above list?
The token Psyker isn't going to do a ton for you in that list. Have you considered running Sisters of Silence?
5x Sisters + Bunker w/Escape Hatch are quickly becoming a stock part of my Tau lists. Thanks to the Hatch they have a pretty mean bubble of "f your psykers" range.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: The token Psyker isn't going to do a ton for you in that list. Have you considered running Sisters of Silence?
5x Sisters + Bunker w/Escape Hatch are quickly becoming a stock part of my Tau lists. Thanks to the Hatch they have a pretty mean bubble of "f your psykers" range.
Ok cool, pointwise, what does that come to? How do the Sisters compare to the Culexus?
I'd recommend an auxilary for the retaliation cadre to benefit from the Dawn Blade Contingent. Here's the list I've been running lately that I've liked a LOT.
Note, I did take inspiration from Paul McKelvey's list.
Dawn Blade
Retaliation cadre
Buffmander
Missilesides x3, x3 target lock, x5 missile drones
Bursttide with intercept, sky fire, ECPA
Single Fusion Crisis
Single Fusion Crisis
Single Fusion Crisis
Firestream
7 total piranhas, 11/12 total seeker missiles
I asked in YMDC but I want the definitive Tau expert opinion:
Can I thrust move on to the board from reserves with a Y-tide?
The rules for the thrust array state that you may choose to move as a swooping mc at the beginning of any of your movement phases. By rule, is reserves its own mini-phase? Or does it take place at the beginning of movement therefore disallowing a thrust move when coming in from your board edge? Thanks!
I'm not looking at my rules, but reserve rolling occurs "at the beginning of your turn," correct? If so, you should be good to go with your thrust move.
The Shrike wrote: I asked in YMDC but I want the definitive Tau expert opinion:
Can I thrust move on to the board from reserves with a Y-tide?
The rules for the thrust array state that you may choose to move as a swooping mc at the beginning of any of your movement phases. By rule, is reserves its own mini-phase? Or does it take place at the beginning of movement therefore disallowing a thrust move when coming in from your board edge? Thanks!
My understanding is that a unit coming on from reserves goes onto the board within their movement distance. You have a choice on how the Yvahra moves, one being up to 24" every other turn after the first time. I haven't played the Yvahra from reserve, that way, but I'm pretty sure you're good to go.
That is a pretty cool list dirty deeds. Always nice to see a non monster mash Tau list as well.
Speaking of which, I run the crisis suit unit of fun (shadowsun+ Buffmander and 9 crisis suits). I just copped that the hunter cadre has some nifty bonuses for the unit, it allows them to run and shoot + extends their supporting fire bubble. With shadowsuns as warlord, that crisis suit unit would be moving 6, run, shoot, 3d6 jet pack move.
You have to pay some taxes though for it though (a fast attack and heavy support slot, the 3 troops are fine I think).
I think instead of running an OSC, the Ghostkeels in a unit of three in the hunter cadre has some potential as well, as they get to run and shoot if within 12 of the commander, plus add supporting fire. As Ghostkeels are a bit short ranged, that is a nice bonus.
What do you expect the Pathfinders to be doing and contributing?
Similarly, what do you expect the gun drones will do to help the Pathfinder contribute?
Gun Drones have comparably increased toughness, but you'd need to be down to 2 or less Pathfinder from the initial team to benefit from it.
Gun Drones have at best comparable firepower, and have a 4+ armor save...
...But Gun Drones don't have Markerlights, and that's generally the end-all, be-all of Pathfinder squads (at least, the ones not sporting Rail Rifles or Ion Rifles). Given what you're getting, you might as well spend almost exactly the same points on bringing more Pathfinders (and thus gain more ML).
Bring massed S5 firepower in your Fire Warriors, or perched in the wings of your Piranhas. Bring your Pathfinders with a plethora of ML.
Similarly, what do you expect the gun drones will do to help the Pathfinder contribute?
Gun Drones have comparably increased toughness, but you'd need to be down to 2 or less Pathfinder from the initial team to benefit from it.
Gun Drones have at best comparable firepower, and have a 4+ armor save...
...But Gun Drones don't have Markerlights, and that's generally the end-all, be-all of Pathfinder squads (at least, the ones not sporting Rail Rifles or Ion Rifles). Given what you're getting, you might as well spend almost exactly the same points on bringing more Pathfinders (and thus gain more ML).
Bring massed S5 firepower in your Fire Warriors, or perched in the wings of your Piranhas. Bring your Pathfinders with a plethora of ML.
I expect them to hide in a ruin, shine their laser pointers on people and then die gloriously for the greater good haha. Fair point on the markerlights.
If you run Pathfinders at all, they should be naked - markers only. They're basically the worst marker light option in the book, though, so unless you just love the models, I'd work with something else.
MilkmanAl wrote: If you run Pathfinders at all, they should be naked - markers only. They're basically the worst marker light option in the book, though, so unless you just love the models, I'd work with something else.
I agree with this. They are only sort of useful in a Ranged Support Cadre, and that formation is not super competitive. For cheap markerlight support, you can't go wrong with marker drones (preferably in a Drone Net).
MilkmanAl wrote: If you run Pathfinders at all, they should be naked - markers only. They're basically the worst marker light option in the book, though, so unless you just love the models, I'd work with something else.
I agree with this. They are only sort of useful in a Ranged Support Cadre, and that formation is not super competitive. For cheap markerlight support, you can't go wrong with marker drones (preferably in a Drone Net).
Oh, I know and in a tournament setting I'd take a Commander in a ML drone net for that sweet BS5 ML goodness. Or some Tetras. I just like the idea of Pathfinders and just wanted to know how to get the most mileage out of them.
MilkmanAl wrote: If you run Pathfinders at all, they should be naked - markers only. They're basically the worst marker light option in the book, though, so unless you just love the models, I'd work with something else.
I agree with this. They are only sort of useful in a Ranged Support Cadre, and that formation is not super competitive. For cheap markerlight support, you can't go wrong with marker drones (preferably in a Drone Net).
Oh, I know and in a tournament setting I'd take a Commander in a ML drone net for that sweet BS5 ML goodness. Or some Tetras. I just like the idea of Pathfinders and just wanted to know how to get the most mileage out of them.
I use pathfinders fairly frequently in less competitive, non-tournament settings. I usually just run a base squad of 6 of them (because that's how many I own). As a rule of thumb I expect them to only shoot markerlights during turn 1. I plan on them being thoroughly dead by turn 2. Thinking of them this way has served me pretty well, because unless your opponent is tactically challenged they're going to focus fire the pathfinders hard. So if they get their first volley off, I'm happy. If they get a second round of fire off, I'm ecstatic. If they get a third round off, I assume my opponent is just bad.
With this mindset I find pathfinder perform reasonably well on average, but you almost assuredly can't count on them to be your only markerlight source. I tend to run a couple more resilient supplementary markerlight sources like a skyray or sniper drone team. I would strongly suggest against relying on them as your main source unless you're spamming enough teams your opponents just won't be able to focus them all down or spending a ton of points keeping them safe (like the tidewall).
I was wondering what you guys thought on some XV8 loadouts, currently I'm getting around to building a list I made a couple of years back using a retaliation cadre and an optimised stealth cadres (so I'm running more than minimum in each squad at the moment).
At the moment I'm running 3 squads for the rc; 3 with ion, and 2 squads of 4 with a fusion blaster and plasma rifle each which I'm not sure on. Each team has 2 shield drones each.
Thinking about moving the weapons around so I don't have any mixed suits anymore so that would be 3 ion, 4 plasma and 4 fusion as the squads, but I've been on the fence between that and moving the fusion team to be 3 strong while the ion goes 4 strong instead.
Also here's my list at the moment. Probably going to give the commander 2x plasma rifles too. I'm running the stealth suit "tax" of the osc as my markerlight support because it seems to fit, they can hide in cover reasonably well and if a ghostkeel stays close I can make those marker shots bs4 which seems nice with so few. I did have ewo on the riptide and broadsides in a previous version, but had to drop them when I realised a maths mistake and found myself 20pts over.
Hi Guys. Wanted to post my list here and not on the army list site as I'd rather get feedback from other Tau Generals. It's for an RTT this Saturday. I'm pretty happy with it, and it's been tweaked over the last few tournaments. There is a pretty diverse mix of armies, and I'm expecting 3-4 Ynnari so that should be interesting.
You need more ML units. I tried getting away with two for a while and I think 3 is the most optimal. Especially with only one unit (I'm assuming the buffmander will hang with the ML drone unit) they'll be a prime target and once they're gone you lose out on D-missile and S-missile goodness. I'm warming up to the sniper drone team with 3 marksmen dudes. I'm also finding that each ML unit needs to reliably put three ML tokens on a target to maximize shooting (2 to remove cover and 1 to increase BS). I run the hunter contingent/cadre so in most cases I'm already hitting on 3's anyway.
Also, yes optimized stealth cadre is awesome - especially against a vehicle heavy opponent
Definitely don't mix weapons on individual suits or within suit units unless using an appropriate amount of target locks. You'll get frustrated with the range variance pretty quickly. As for specific armaments, my Crisis Suits get dual fusion, dual CIB, or dual flamers. Plasma and AFP are interesting options but are lacking when compared with the above options.
The Stealth teams as marker sources is pretty lackluster, in my opinion. You're basically spending extra points to not use a BS4, cover-ignoring burst cannon in each unit. What I'd probably choose to do would be to rearrange your Marker Drones to one of your Crisis teams - probably the CIB guys since you already have a lot of S7 AP4 - and give your Commander a drone controller and some drones. If you don't want to switch the Commander to CIBs, he could still roll with the fusion teams, but that'll shift target priority toward that unit significantly. You'd also likely want to splash target locks on the suits so you can mark and shoot different units.
As for the second list, I'm not really a fan of the Firestream Wing. It doesn't put out enough firepower or drones for the cost. Maybe change it out for some Skyrays and/or Broadsides? That'd allow you to maybe save some points on VTs, too. An IA Riptide would you some good, too.
AP 2 is useful if you face a lot of 2+ saves, but generally speaking, the volume of shots and higher strength on the CIB is more useful. Consider bikes (or Thunderwolves or any of the other common T5 marine things) for a minute. A CIB will do 5/12 wounds against those models, while plasms does either 1/3 at >12" or 2/3 within 12", so you're actually better off when keeping your target at range. The CIB is also much better against vehicles and targets with invulnerable saves. Furthermore, if you're trying to stay out of charge range of something fast, 12+2d6" is a whole lot worse than 18+2d6" There's nothing wrong with plasma, but the CIB is just a better all-around choice.
Also, for what it's worth, I don't know that you need a whole lot more marker lights than the drone configuration I suggested would grant. Depending on how you decided to run it, you'd have something like 5-7 marker hits per turn. Given that most of your units (OSC, IA Tide, Broadsides) are reasonably independent of markerlights, you should be fine.
One thing I missed the first time around is that there are only 2 Ghostkeels in your OSC. Strongly consider dropping a suit or two to fit in a third. It'll make that unit more durable, obviously, and more importantly will give your Keels an extra BS from Fire Team. BS5 Ghostkeels mean business. They'll shred things.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I had a Nova'd HBC Riptide Immobilize an AV 13 Dread in Overwatch during a tournament. Saved his bacon!
And I think I've had mine do a smash attack on one in melee and take its last hullpoint. I pictured it doing the "Captain Kirk 2-handed punch" to the dread. I've actually found that Tau sometimes do surprisingly well in melee considering their reputation of sucking at it.
MilkmanAl wrote: The Stealth teams as marker sources is pretty lackluster, in my opinion. You're basically spending extra points to not use a BS4, cover-ignoring burst cannon in each unit. What I'd probably choose to do would be to rearrange your Marker Drones to one of your Crisis teams - probably the CIB guys since you already have a lot of S7 AP4 - and give your Commander a drone controller and some drones. If you don't want to switch the Commander to CIBs, he could still roll with the fusion teams, but that'll shift target priority toward that unit significantly. You'd also likely want to splash target locks on the suits so you can mark and shoot different units.
I just noticed the stealths have multitrackers so wouldn't it get to fire both? Admittedly it's still more expensive but was looking for a way to make use of them for the rest of the army since they sort of became recon units with their beacon and being on the table turn 1 to help the retaliation cadre deep strike in if needed.
I once had my Riptide elbow-butt an Ironclad that charged it (his attacks managed to deal just 1 wound against my 5++ saves, lol)! My friend now doesn't stop telling me Riptides are awesome in melee
Vector Strike wrote: I once had my Riptide elbow-butt an Ironclad that charged it (his attacks managed to deal just 1 wound against my 5++ saves, lol)! My friend now doesn't stop telling me Riptides are awesome in melee
My commander had a similar story, in the final game of a tournament, my commander and his squad of XV8 got charged by a nurgle Daemon prince with the black mace, the commander took one wound before knocking out the prince with his onager gauntlet. After that he punched out two more plague marine sergeants in challenges. He has therefore gotten a well deserved reputation for close combat and I never leave home without my favourite relic
Just wanted to join in on the Ghostkeel praise. Had my first game against battle company with my Tau today. My opponent had two Ironclad Dreadnoughts drop in turn one, on my turn my Keels killed them both and a Razorback on top too. It's crazy how effective they are vs vehicles.
Jancoran wrote: yup. Vehicles should rightly fear them. I love Ghostkeels.
Because Riptide wing is nerfed to ground in my meta
Spoiler:
(can't use nova profile for main weapon, or ripple fire when you hail fire, can only be taken if Tau is primary detachment, can take either Surge or Tidewing)
I feel OSC is even better than it. Of course its limited to my area, but still. Feels good to play something different, even some of my opponents have said it's refreshing to see something else than Riptide wing.
An added thought about my 2 4 man ion xv8s teams, would it be a good idea for me to look at trying to find the 30 points so that 3 suits in each squad have target locks considering the volume of fire they'd have. I'm sort of on the fence as they are 18".
n0t_u wrote: An added thought about my 2 4 man ion xv8s teams, would it be a good idea for me to look at trying to find the 30 points so that 3 suits in each squad have target locks considering the volume of fire they'd have. I'm sort of on the fence as they are 18".
Run them as Monats, it's cheaper and you won't break due to causalities.
They've got shield drones to try to help out (making the squads 6 strong with shield drones), but I can see how that helps. I just went though my list and like realised I can throw out 81 s7 shots a turn from different sources 69 of which deepstrikes in turn 2 at bs4, that's just crazy.
I wouldn't bother with shield drones most of the time. Most opponents will shoot them off the table with weaponry their invuln wouldn't be of use against then bust out the big guns. I suppose they have some utility when in a unit with a tankmander, though.
In any event, running individual suits - or at least tiny units - will do a lot more for damage mitigation than extra drones of any sort. Making your opponent waste firepower is always a good thing. It also grants you extra mobility and target flexibility without dropping extra points.
It occurs to me that I've never played a mirror match under this codex. Assuming a competitive environment where you're likely going to see at least 1 Stormsurge and a couple Riptides, how would you play the game out? What would your target priority be? S7 AP4 honestly isn't all that effective vs most big suits, so we may have serious issues eliminating opposing Riptides and Surges. Would you go all-out and try to D-missile the opposing Surge away? Lots of questions abound.
For me, it'd be all about knocking out whatever could hurt me, which seems obvious enough. D-shotgun Stormsurges are top priority with Broadsides next and IA Riptides a close third. Y'Vahras would also be high on the list. Smart missiles should make quick work of whatever objective holding units are running around, be they lone suits or minimal FW squads. I've been running the blastcannon more often recently, so chances are good I'd be running around trying to D then stomp away opposing Riptides as much as possible. Overall, I'd do my best to play an objective denial game, eliminating enemy objective campers with whatever small arms I had around and trying to soak the big guys with wounds as appropriate. That said, I doubt I'd bother attacking Riptides with anything not AP2 unless there just really wasn't anything else to go for.
A few of my mirror matches have come down to each of us trying to D-missile each others Stormsurge, which I feel is a correct play. However, I think that against Riptide wing it could be useful to outrange opponents markerlights with your Surge (impossible against Tetras), then shoot a Riptide instead. Bonus points if it prevents his nova reroll from happening.
I played a mirror match recently splitting up my models with a friend who didn't have an army. 1250 Tau Civil War; Enclaves vs. TE. Small match, but I had 2 Y'Vahras and he had a Stormsurge. Was a very close game. My opponent made a mistake one turn by eliminating all the targets the surge shot at, including one of my y-tides, so couldn't charge the surge into combat against my second Y-tide.
Next turn I dumped out 10 Breachers with a fireblade with the escalation warlord trait that makes my WL's unit twin-linked. I took 4 wounds off the surge, and another 2 off with my Y-tide, blinding it in the process. I killed it on the next turn. That sequence ultimately decided the game, though it was a close run thing. He was very aggressive with the surge, as well he should have been.
Was an absolute slaughter. I won 11-7 on kill points with 2 tetras, 2 Breachers and the fireblade left. He had 4 marker drones and a Crisis suit. Was a really fun game; I'm sure if we played 10 times it'd be 5-5 or close to.
Anyway about the target priority we were both gunning for each others big ticket items. I knew if I killed the surge early I'd probably win. He knew that my army was toothless without the Y-tides. He had a R'Varna as well, and those things are nasty against Tau. I got lucky and out-dueled it in combat with the y-tide.
Speaking of which, the Y'Vahra is absolutely my favorite Tau unit. I only bring them in hard-nosed games but they are absolute rock stars. They fit perfectly with how I like to play my Tau, up close and personal. They just wreck face every time.
In a world where i'm not able to field a bunch of MCs (i've got a single riptide at the moment) what is an effective way to up the amount of AP 1/2 shots in my lists?
Pogman42 wrote: In a world where i'm not able to field a bunch of MCs (i've got a single riptide at the moment) what is an effective way to up the amount of AP 1/2 shots in my lists?
Crisis suits with Plasma. They can have 2 plasma shots each.
Pogman42 wrote: In a world where i'm not able to field a bunch of MCs (i've got a single riptide at the moment) what is an effective way to up the amount of AP 1/2 shots in my lists?
Crisis suits with Plasma. They can have 2 plasma shots each.
Yeah, I sorta figured as much. I still haven't found the correct way to run plasma suits. In a unit? Deep striking? Etc.
Pogman42 wrote: In a world where i'm not able to field a bunch of MCs (i've got a single riptide at the moment) what is an effective way to up the amount of AP 1/2 shots in my lists?
Crisis suits with Plasma. They can have 2 plasma shots each.
Yeah, I sorta figured as much. I still haven't found the correct way to run plasma suits. In a unit? Deep striking? Etc.
Personally I run them in squads and only deep strike them if there's a high priority target I can drop in on and wipe out without too much concern of retaliation. Otherwise I run them on the board.
But you'll probably hear from a lot of people that ap 1/2 doesn't matter as much as simple weight of fire. The math tends to show that making them roll more dice is more reliable than having the ap 1/2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. would anyone be willing to criteque my army here? I am mainly fighting Grey Knights, Daemons(Magnus), another Tau player and Blood Angels.
Spoiler:
So I'm playing around with my available Tau to make some fun lists that will at least hold their own. I can make Riptide Wings and have a Stormsurge but I am trying to forego them in the next couple lists I'm making to see what I can come up with. Though I love Riptides so can't go fully without them. I mainly fight Grey Knights, another Tau player, Blood Angels and now a Magus daemons list guy.
Anyway, here's my first list!
+++ CAD No Wing (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition) [1850pts] +++
I try to run all my Crisis, no matter how equipped, as solo suits. They're easier to hide and your opponent ends up having to overkill them, which helps make your whole army more resilient. Granted, you need more marker support this way but I tend to bring 4 sources, sometimes 5. that's enough.
Pogman42 wrote: In a world where i'm not able to field a bunch of MCs (i've got a single riptide at the moment) what is an effective way to up the amount of AP 1/2 shots in my lists?
Crisis suits with Plasma. They can have 2 plasma shots each.
Yeah, I sorta figured as much. I still haven't found the correct way to run plasma suits. In a unit? Deep striking? Etc.
Personally I run them in squads and only deep strike them if there's a high priority target I can drop in on and wipe out without too much concern of retaliation. Otherwise I run them on the board.
But you'll probably hear from a lot of people that ap 1/2 doesn't matter as much as simple weight of fire. The math tends to show that making them roll more dice is more reliable than having the ap 1/2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also.. would anyone be willing to criteque my army here? I am mainly fighting Grey Knights, Daemons(Magnus), another Tau player and Blood Angels.
Spoiler:
So I'm playing around with my available Tau to make some fun lists that will at least hold their own. I can make Riptide Wings and have a Stormsurge but I am trying to forego them in the next couple lists I'm making to see what I can come up with. Though I love Riptides so can't go fully without them. I mainly fight Grey Knights, another Tau player, Blood Angels and now a Magus daemons list guy.
Anyway, here's my first list!
+++ CAD No Wing (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition) [1850pts] +++
So does the stealth AoE buff from the ghostkeel wing usually end up being handy enough in general to make it worth taking over the optimised stealth cadre? It seems like it could at least help out a bit due to the range if you were to try something like the ranged support cadre with it (cause stealth and shrouded pathfinders), but I'm not sure about it. I'm considering giving the combination of the two a try as a different way to get markerlights into my list at least.
n0t_u wrote: So does the stealth AoE buff from the ghostkeel wing usually end up being handy enough in general to make it worth taking over the optimised stealth cadre? It seems like it could at least help out a bit due to the range if you were to try something like the ranged support cadre with it (cause stealth and shrouded pathfinders), but I'm not sure about it. I'm considering giving the combination of the two a try as a different way to get markerlights into my list at least.
It helps you when you want to play with Armor quite a lot. Armor is distressed in 7th Edition. The Ghostkeel Wing can really help fefend Tau Armor that has the Disruption Pods.
I've tried running a list with a bunch of Breachers in fish w Dpods and a GKW for the 2+ jink. It's fine but honestly the OSC is so deadly it's just a better formation againast most opponents.
I like the GKW/Breacher combo a lot, but if you're purely looking for offensive output, the OSC is hard to top. Overall, unless you're pulling some vehicle shenanigans, the OSC is a better choice.
So, competitive lists. I think I've pretty well settled on an army, but I'm still unsure it's exactly what I want. The lack of psychic defense is troubling, especially given how easy it is to acquire these days, but I'm trying to adhere to the ITC limitation of 3 detachments. I could cut down a formation by eliminating the Drone Net and just using normal Marker Drones, but having intercepting drones is really hard to ignore in a competitive environment. Then again, so is having Magnus make my Stormsurge D-missile and pulse drive me. Nullifying invisibility and other ridiculous deathstar buffs also makes going second hurt much, much less. I'll throw up both list options, just for the hell of it.
Null Maiden Task Force
5 SoS - 75
Rhino - 45
1850 on the nose
There's nothing particularly innovative about either list. The munitorum cache is a huge deal, allowing the HBC tides to essentially be twin-linked and granting the flamers torrent. It'll also prevent the odd gets hot roll for the IAs. Switching the Drone Net for Null Maidens prevents the HBC tides from being BS5 quite as often (since only one target can get illuminated) and, again, removes marker light intercepting but grants much-needed psychic defense and very modest counter-assault capacity. Basically, it's an offense for defense trade. Any thoughts?
Why the extra 7 Marker Drones in addition to the Drone Net? Seems like points better spent elsewhere, unless the goal was to blow 98 points to hit 1850 even.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Why the extra 7 Marker Drones in addition to the Drone Net? Seems like points better spent elsewhere, unless the goal was to blow 98 points to hit 1850 even.
SJ
Those 7 drones are in a separate list. The first list is 1847 and has the drone net, the latter is 1850 and only has the 7 marker drones, no drone net.
So as tau, we have something that most other armies cannot do, or do with quite as much variety. We can for all intents and purposes run an army with stealth/shrouded on everything.
in 1500 points you could run:
Cad with shadowsun and kroot for infiltrate and stealth (forests)
OSC
Ranged support cadre- so only the broadsides don't have stealth/shrouded. but this could easily be replaced by another OSC or a crisis blob with shadow sun
Do you think army-wide stealth/shrouded/infiltrate is a strong enough gimmick to come up even at your FLGS average Friday night? It's clearly no tournament idea, which is why i am just hoping for a 50-50 W/L, it seems fun to me.
So, I just played in an ITC event today. My list was the following:
Spoiler:
Hunter Contingent:
Core: Hunter Cadre
Commander: 2x Missile Pod, Drone Controller, Target Lock, Iridium Suit, 1x Marker Drone
Crisis Team: 1 suit, with 2x Fusion Blaster
Piranha: 1 vehicle, with Fusion Blaster
3x Strike Team with 5 men each
Stormsurge: Pulse Driver Cannon, TL AFP, Shield, EWO, ATS
Auxiliary: Optimized Stealth Cadre
Ghostkeel: 1 suit with: CIR, TL Fusion Blaster, EWO, Counterfire DS 2x Stealth Team, each with: 3 suits, 1x Fusion Blaster, Target Lock on Fusion suit
Auxiliary: Firebase Support Cadre
Riptide: 1 suit, Ion Accelerator, TLSMS, EWO, Stims
Broadsides: 2 suits, each with HYMP, TLSMS, and EWO Broadsides: 1 suit with HYMP, TLSMS, and EWO Detachment 2: Drone-Net VX1-0
4 Gun Drones
4 Marker Drones
4 Marker Drones
4 Marker Drones
My first opponent was running a huge Genestealer Cult army all on foot. Lots of Cult Ambush everywhere. He had a CAD and whatever the GSC multi-formation detachment is (Cult Insurrection?). Lots of small units of Acolytes and Metamorphs, plus a couple of min squads of Neophytes. He also had 2 blobs of 20 Purestrain Genestealers with a Patriarch in each, as well as a Primus and one Magus. As luck would have it he got first turn (and I failed to seize), but only three small units of Acolytes got that magic 6 on the Ambush table, and I had bubble wrapped my really good stuff. Problem is, like a dummy I didn't castle up in the corner like I should have, but rather in the center of my deployment zone (mission was Dawn of War deployment). The game was relatively unremarkable, with me just being worn down by the constant assaults. I conceded (mainly due to time) after just 3 turns, with only my Stormsurge and a few drones left, and the Surge was locked in combat. I did kill more than half of my opponent's army, but there were just too many bodies coming at me.
In the second game, my opponent was running a double CAD list, with Astra Militarum and Militarum Tempestus. The AM detachment had a large blob of Conscripts, a couple of Infantry Squads with Autocannon teams, a Command Squad with an Autocannon team, a Lord Commissar, and 3 separate Wyverns. He also had an Aegis Defense Line with a Comms Relay. The Tempestus Scions half was 4 Scions squads with a Taurox Prime for each. There were 2 units with 2 meltaguns and 2 units with 2 hotshot volley guns. He also had 2 Scion Command Squads with 4 Plasmas in each. All of the Scions infantry were deep striking. The mission was The Scouring, with Hammer and Anvil deployment. He got first turn and I once again failed to seize. Very little of note happened on his first turn. He somehow managed to immobilize one of his Tauroxes despite its reroll of Dangerous Terrain checks. He did manage to kill one of my units of Marker Drones, but very little else. On my turn, I anchored the Stormsurge and shot up a bunch of his stuff. I killed nearly half of his Conscript blob, which pushed them off of the objective. I also killed that immobilized Taurox, as it was also on the objective. This denied my opponent a Maelstrom point, and got me one for killing a unit. On turn 2, he got 4 of his Scions squads from reserves, but my warlord trait kept the others off (both Melta squads) despite his Comms relay. One of the plasma command squads mishapped into Ongoing reserves; the others got brutalized by my Interceptor shooting, with few if any survivors (can't remember if I killed them all or not). He killed my Piranha, netting him a Maelstrom point, but very little else died aside from a couple of Fire Warriors. On my turn 2, I killed one of the Wyverns with the Stormsurge's Pulse Driver, and I polished off the survivors from one of the deep striking Scions units, but my Riptide failed to kill the Taurox he shot at (with only the Smart missiles as he used the Ion gun for Interceptor) even when he charged it. This was sad as I had chosen to try to kill 3 units for 3 Maelstrom points, and I had only killed 2. Fortunately on turn 3 his Deep Strikers scattered into easy interceptor shots for my third unit kill despite him trying to drop them behind his lines to deny me killing them. One of the Melta units still stayed off, though. He moved up all of his 3 remaining Tauroxes, but the only thing they accomplished was to put a couple of wounds on my Stormsurge. On my own turn 3, I killed all three of the Tauroxes (for 3 Maelstrom points!) as well as another of the Wyverns (the Gun Drones outflanked and earned their pay) and some more Scions. Really at this point we were running out of time and I was just cleaning up. By the end of the game, I had claimed 5 of the 6 objectives and killed most of my opponent's army for a decisive win. The only point I missed was Slay the Warlord. The dice were really not kind to my opponent, as he had some really bad scatters and failed to wound far more than was statistical.
My third opponent was running a Rehati War Sect with Magnus and 3 Daemon Princes, as well as a small Daemons CAD with the Masque of Slaanesh, a unit of Blue Horrors, two units of Brimstone Horrors, and an Aegis Line with Comms Relay. I thought I was going to be roflstomped so bad that the game wouldn't even be fun, but I was wrong. I got first turn, but then my opponent seized on me. Not a huge deal, as he had placed Magnus far enough away that I couldn't light him up with Markerlights, and had also places all three Princes in reserves. On turn 1, Magnus took off and cast some spells around, but I didn't lose a whole lot due to some lucky dice rolling (well, lucky for me! ). I managed to kill one unit of Brimstone Horrors and actually put a couple of wounds on Magnus, amazingly enough. Too bad he had already used the spell on my Stormsurge that made him take control of it, wasting my D missiles on the Piranha (which jinked all the damage away!). On turn 2, two of his Princes came in, killing a couple of Stealth suits with Vector Strike. The Masque also deep struck in. I decided to fire some Interceptor at both Princes and the Masque. The Masque died to a couple of Broadsides shooting their SMS at her. After some Markerlights and plenty of guns were fired, I managed to inflict a total of 6 wounds on one of the Princes (they all had armor). My opponent rolled a total of four 2's, meaning that Prince went down. The other Prince took one wound and failed his grounding check, taking another wound. That same Prince got unlucky again in the Psychic phase and got Perils, taking a third wound. I managed to survive the Psychic phase without losing too much. When that Prince that was on the ground decided to charge one of my units, my Supporting Fire overwatch took his fourth and final wound, killing him. I couldn't believe my luck! On my own turn, I didn't accomplish much other than repositioning a few of my units and killing a few more Horrors, which split. My Stormsurge charged the Blues, killing several with Stomps (rolled one 6). They lost five more to Instability, but they did spawn some Brimstones. The Blues were conga lined in such a way as the Stormsurge found itself out of combat and consolidated. On turn 3, things started to go south for me, although I did manage to intercept and ground his third Prince, and that Prince also lost a wound to Perils, but that Psychic phase saw most of my units just get completely obliterated, many by a single 9 inch Nova power. The Riptide got turned into a Spawn, as did my Ghostkeel. The grounded Prince charged and killed a Marker Drone unit, and Magnus himself landed. On my turn 3, I had very little army left, with just my Commander and a couple of drones, and my Stormsurge, still standing. The Stormsurge did kill that Prince and tried to charge Magnus, but he failed to reach combat. On turn 4, my Commander was Instakilled by a psychic power, and Magnus charged the Stormsurge. I had denied Force, so the Stormsurge survived long enough to try to punch and Stomp on Magnus. It was not to be, though, as even with 3 stomps I couldn't roll a 6. He killed the Surge next turn and I was officially tabled. If I had been able to squish Magnus with a Stomp, that would have probably won the game for me, as he had very little in play that could hurt the Stormsurge, and I could run rampant through his surviving units. I might have tabled my opponent instead of the other way around. It was still a really good game, and I was surprised that I was able to kill all three Princes (my opponent's dice were cold for most of the game).
My takeaway from this tournament:
-Hunter Contingent is good but somewhat situational. I rarely used the Coordinated Firepower buff, and the 12" Supporting Fire never came into play. The OSC is really amazing, though, but it can be run as a stand alone formation.
-Drone Net is a must take for Tau, at least if you run Stormsurges. Intercepting Markerlights are really amazing!
-When facing a Genestealer Cult list like I faced, castle your stuff up in the corner instead of doing what I did. It's the only way to survive against that many bodies. I honestly don't know what I was thinking in that game.
-Knowing when to anchor is key to playing Stormsurges well. Against the GSC and Magnus lists, I needed to keep the Surge moving and Stomping, but against the Guard, which was mainly a gunline, I really used the double shooting to good effect.
-Tau should strongly consider allying in something to counter enemy psykers. Magnus and Libby Conclave lists can be really troublesome otherwise. Perhaps the Null Maiden Task Force would be a good fit, although One Eye Open could be an issue.
I played a tournament today and won an insanely nice prize. It was a fully built, professionally painted and ridiculously well magnetized Stormsurge. It's awesome. I can't beleive what a cool prize it was. I wasn't even going to attend that tournament until about an hour before, because my D&D game moved up to later in the evening.
So yeah, I played a tournament last weekend too. Didn't go that well, but I won 3 games out of 5. Only things I lost to were other Tau. Other guy had Driver Cannon on his Surge so I had to be extremely careful with Ghostkeels. I made a mistake in my deployment and lost my Surge in first turn. Definately my bad. Then my dice betrayed me and I didn't seem to make my saves at all. Ended up giving him the 20-0 win out of frustration. Not something I'm proud of, but I feel even hiding wouldn't have saved me from getting tabled.
Other game against Tau was easier.We both failed to kill each others Surges turn one, but they were both killed turn 2. Then it was just cat and mouse around the battlefield and scoring. He played extremely carefully and was using Piranha Firestream pretty effectively and keeping them out of harms way. Lost this one 14-6 I think. Would've been 12-8 but managed to fail one out of three saves and lost one Crusade objective in the end.
So yeah, definately a lot to learn. Bunker with escape hatch seems to be really good to catapult your markerlights in position turn one when needed. Not sure if I should get one before 8th edition but I'm thinking about it. Both of my Tau opponents had psychic defense, with other one having Culexus and other one using Sisters in a Rhino.
Ghostkeels biggest drawback is definately the range, but it really only seems to play a big role in mirror matches where opponent can easily ignore their cover. And even counter-measures are not so good when Tau can just use more markerlights to increase the BS of his snap shots. Against enemies coming at you they performed extremely well.
Oh yeah, the wins were against Warconvo with Cawl, WS battle company and Necron Decurion with 2 Harvests and Destroyer Cult.
Oh yeah, the wins were against Warconvo with Cawl, WS battle company and Necron Decurion with 2 Harvests and Destroyer Cult.
...and the other show drops. Lol.
Ghostkeels are awesome. Mirror matches are what they are. You won more than you lost. Just saying.
Snap shotting stops the large blasts and forces enemies to use up markerlights just to try and hit them AND get around their cover...all in all, this could be a lot worse. Thats a lot of Markerlights and if you threaten the opponent ENOUGH first, then they will have a hard time justifying their sole fascination with the Ghostkeels. They may still go that way but your other units can make them pay for it.
2+ armor on other units also helps because ignoring cover is of little consequence and added BS definitely has a point of diminishing return against it (though never useless, each successful save does not in fact increase the chance that another save will fail so honestly, 2+ armor in general in 40K is just pretty darn good).
Thanks Jancoran! Indeed the victories tasted sweet against such powerful lists. And what you're saying is true of course. I think the key would've been to play ghostkeels even more aggressive and to rely on counter-measures, even if I had to use all of them turn one to keep them alive.
As long as we're having a love fest for the OSC I have a couple of questions that could go in the YMDC forum but this is really Tau specific:
1. What cover save does a 3 'keel unit with all of its drones intact receive standing out in the open when being shot at from further than 12". I think it's only a 3+ but others at my FLGS says 2+
2. When moving through ruins the 'keels can move their regular 6" move. What do the drones move? MTC does confer to the drones but that means they still have to roll 3d6 when deciding how far they can go or they can use their jump pack to move 6" and not JSJ, right?
necron99 wrote: As long as we're having a love fest for the OSC I have a couple of questions that could go in the YMDC forum but this is really Tau specific:
1. What cover save does a 3 'keel unit with all of its drones intact receive standing out in the open when being shot at from further than 12". I think it's only a 3+ but others at my FLGS says 2+
2. When moving through ruins the 'keels can move their regular 6" move. What do the drones move? MTC does confer to the drones but that means they still have to roll 3d6 when deciding how far they can go or they can use their jump pack to move 6" and not JSJ, right?
To answer number 2: Jetpack equipped units can move 6" ignoring terrain hindrances (except for dangerous terrain tests if landing/taking off) and then thrust in the assault phase. They aren't limited to only using the bonuses from their equipment in one phase like jump pack equipped models are.
So in your example the Drones can move 6" and take dangerous terrain checks or roll for their move distance as normal and not take dangerous terrain tests. Neither option effects their ability to make a thrust move in the assault phase, they can do that regardless.
necron99 wrote: As long as we're having a love fest for the OSC I have a couple of questions that could go in the YMDC forum but this is really Tau specific:
1. What cover save does a 3 'keel unit with all of its drones intact receive standing out in the open when being shot at from further than 12". I think it's only a 3+ but others at my FLGS says 2+
2. When moving through ruins the 'keels can move their regular 6" move. What do the drones move? MTC does confer to the drones but that means they still have to roll 3d6 when deciding how far they can go or they can use their jump pack to move 6" and not JSJ, right?
2+ in the open with Drones over 12"
They are Jet packs so the terrain doesnt affect the ghostkeels. The Drones must still take Dangerous terrain tests. The Drones are not MC's.
Cool, thanks everyone. My argument for the 3+ was that the text says the keels would replace stealth (+1) with shrouded (+2) thanks to the having more than 2 drones and that at beyond 12" it would be doubled (+4) so why doesn't that translate to 6-5-4-3 for a 3+ cover save in the open?
MilkmanAl wrote: The drones give the Keels shrouded, and since they already have stealth, they get a total of +6 to.cover.
Yeah, but in the text about that it says if you already have stealth you receive shrouded instead. Meaning you don't get both you exchange your stealth for shrouded.
The Ghostkeel already has stealth. The Drones grant stealth to an the unit's models if said models don't already have stealth or shrouded if they do. The Shrouded bonus from the drone doesn't replace the Ghostkeel's inherit Stealth USR, it replaces the Stealth bonus that the drone would otherwise grant.
Example: Two Drones plus Commander. Drones grant the Commander Stealth.
Example 2: Two Drones plus Ghostkeel. Drones grant the Ghostkeel Shrouded as the Ghostkeel already has stealth.
Yeah you have both Stealth and Shrouded when over 12" and its doubled. its cool. Ghostkeels: so good. when a Ynarri player who wins tournaments ALL the time dont like it, you're doing it right. =)
I wonder how 8th edition will change up how Tau play. Maybe they'll update rail weapons to actually be good again. I'm hoping a lot of units that are currently subpar will be made good in the new edition, but ultimately it is wishlisting on my part.
ZergSmasher wrote: I wonder how 8th edition will change up how Tau play. Maybe they'll update rail weapons to actually be good again. I'm hoping a lot of units that are currently subpar will be made good in the new edition, but ultimately it is wishlisting on my part.
Well, if Lascannons are anything to go by then the Solid Shot railgun round will be dealing D6 wounds and have a rend of -4. The Broadside Railgun could possibly be D6 wounds, or maybe D3 to differentiate it from the Hammerhead gun by more than 2 points of Strength (though I would also hope it goes up to Strength 9 as I don't think there is any way that a gun which can be carried on the shoulder of a standard space marine should have higher strength than a gun the size of the broadside railgun) also with a rend of -4. Rail Rifles for the pathfinders will also be rend -4.
So all of them are going to remain very good at taking out armoured targets at the very least and likely to be invaluable in taking out high wound count models.
I'm thinking that our massive rate of fire options like the HBC and HYMP are going to take a bit of a hit, while things like plasma and railguns get a substantial buff from the new damage rules. I'm also hopeful that pulse rifles become the next big thing, maybe getting -1 rend. That'd really bring Fire Warriors onto the scene in a hurry.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm thinking that our massive rate of fire options like the HBC and HYMP are going to take a bit of a hit, while things like plasma and railguns get a substantial buff from the new damage rules. I'm also hopeful that pulse rifles become the next big thing, maybe getting -1 rend. That'd really bring Fire Warriors onto the scene in a hurry.
No, Pulse Rifles do not need -1 rend when no other gun with AP5 is getting it (if the preview of bolters and flamers are anything to go by).
Whatever happens, I'm hopeful that mass troops is a viable option for Tau (and every army, really). I love the big bots, but balance never hurt anyone. I'm also interested to see if massed flamer suits is a reasonable direction to move in, given the D6 hits thing. Maybe Promethium Pipes will still let them flash fry faces from across the board. I had a ton of fun with the flamer spam list I posted awhile back and would love to keep something similar alive in the new edition.
I am planning on bring this list tonight that I call - Stormsurge Support Cadre. It's thematic but probably pretty strong. It's been suggested to me to announce my list on the FLGS for tonight's 40k nite and try to pre-arrange a game rather than just show up.
The idea was that this is a supporting element that would be fielded to provide Stormsurges with aerial support and protection as well as marker lights for the Stormsurges to be extremely effective. The firewarrior teams are there to provide ground support from would be assaulters. The Stormsurges are going to move and do all the heavy lifting as they are equipped with D-Cannons. Also this is a sort of fun test as it's the first time i will field the Remoras, Tetras and Barracuda.
Is this list, solely for the 2 Stormsurges brutal enough that I should provide warning? General thoughts on the list? Thanks!
+++ Support (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition) [1850pts] +++
thats pretty unique. ton of mobility thats for sure. Not a fan of how few markerlights are in there since you need about 8 to maximize th Stormsurges destructive potential and that many other units besides.
Jancoran wrote: thats pretty unique. ton of mobility thats for sure. Not a fan of how few markerlights are in there since you need about 8 to maximize th Stormsurges destructive potential and that many other units besides.
That would be my only observation.
I ended up playing the list last nite. It was effective. Tetras are really good. The barracuda was great. Took out 2 custodes before flying off to kill a thunderfire cannon.
The Drone fighters came on turn 3 so that added 2 more marker lights. They also were decent with their heavy burst cannons.
I guess the marker lights were not as abundant as I first thought. 4 from the two skyrays, another 4 TL from the two tetras and 2 from the Remoras.
All in all my opponent didn't think that the list was overly cheesy despite the 2 Stormsurges. I think he felt this way because there was next to no ap3 or ap2 so he was always getting saves and that there were not as many marker lights as he would have expected.
I lucked out getting the command trait for re-rolls of 1 for shooting hits. So i didn't really depend on marker lights a lot. He had 2 squads of devastators with lascannons in the backfield, 1 cent dev squad with lascannons and missiles, 2 thunderfire cannons in the back field as well. 3 drop pods, 2 with tac squads, 1 empty. 3 rhinos, 2 with tac squads, 1 with sisters of silence squad - this rhino was a Sos rhino. then a custodes squad with stormshields and a chaplin. lastly a landspeeder. In a demi company. using some sentinels of terra rules and imperial fists chapter tactics.
It looked like he's gearing up for 8th ed. after he saw the lascannon profile.
It's too bad 7th is ending, this was a fun list play.
Agree. There's another thread already in the works. It makes more sense to me to post there since Tau are going to be totally different. Hardly any of the advice in this thread will be germane in 2 weeks.
I also recently picked up a culexus to start shoe horning in to ALL of my lists (Necrons, 
)
