The thing about Remora's is that if you're just looking for networked Markerlights, why not run Skyrays instead? I guess you can snag a Piranha or two with seekers for your fast attack with the Taucurion, but it just feels weird if you aren't running a Skyray when you have a CAD in addition to the Hunter Cadre.
I honestly think the Retaliation Cadre is the true "Taucurion" formation, and not the Hunter cad.
I've played both the Skyray and the Remora, and while the Skyray is very effective with its alpha strike and makes a good core for a castle, it doesn't do much more beyond that since it is stuck in one place in order to fire both markerlights effectively.
When I fielded a squadron of two Remoras, they were very effective harassing and marking units. The two seeker missiles mounted to each them can also expand their role by getting behind a vehicle by good flying or dropping into hover and taking it down.
Comparing two Remoras and a Skyray, the Remoras are more expensive by about 49 points (against a Skyray with BSF and Disruption Pods) and lose two seeker missiles, but instead of a single TLSMS, they each have a TL Long-barrel Burst Cannon, which are Heavy 6. Pumping 12 S5 shots into infantry or the tail of a vehicle will hurt. The low armor of the Remoras will be painful, especially if the enemy has Skyfire, but if they don't, they further serve as a great distraction if they do shoot at them.
Think of Remoras like a flying cross between a Tetra and a Piranha (burst cannon) that leans more on offense than marking.
One other advantage of the Remora: it's a tiny model mounted on a skimmer base, NOT the large flyer base. So with the stealth field you should almost always have a 2+ cover save without jinking, if you can't get out of LOS entirely.
If you are faced with heavy AA fire, just jink for your 2+ save.
Remoras are harder to kill than people give credit for. what holds them back is the fact they truly shine in huge flocks, and then they are also very expensive.
Yeah they and tetras are definitely making me consider a CAD. But I have to say, do we REALLY need that many markerlights anymore? Darkstrider is nice, don't get me wrong. So are Skyrays. But consider the OSC for example (even outside the Taucurion). Stealth suits are always BS4. A squad of 3 ghostkeels (which should last, at minimum, for 2 or three turns, no matter the opposition) are always BS5. Broadsides are twin-linked. I know the riptide needs it, but how much? And inside a Taucurion, just add 1 to every BS I just mentioned. Even Riptides could be perpetually at BS 4, so long as you shoot with at least 3 units. And if you felt like taking 3 Riptides in a unit, they would be at BS 5 until one died (assuming you could coordinate fire for them)
I'm just not seeing the need for many markerlights at all
luke1705 wrote: Yeah they and tetras are definitely making me consider a CAD. But I have to say, do we REALLY need that many markerlights anymore? Darkstrider is nice, don't get me wrong. So are Skyrays. But consider the OSC for example (even outside the Taucurion). Stealth suits are always BS4. A squad of 3 ghostkeels (which should last, at minimum, for 2 or three turns, no matter the opposition) are always BS5. Broadsides are twin-linked. I know the riptide needs it, but how much? And inside a Taucurion, just add 1 to every BS I just mentioned. Even Riptides could be perpetually at BS 4, so long as you shoot with at least 3 units. And if you felt like taking 3 Riptides in a unit, they would be at BS 5 until one died (assuming you could coordinate fire for them)
I'm just not seeing the need for many markerlights at all
Quoted for truth. I'm not sure markerlights are needed either, except perhaps if you want to run a Stormsurge or two (Str. D missiles!), or possibly to use the ignore cover benefit (not necessary if using a fully kitted-out buffmander and/or and OSC). Perhaps this is the end of the era of the Mark'O, and Pathfinders should perhaps be taken for, dare I say it, Rail Rifles instead of Markerlights.
Pretty much for ignores cover purposes where the buffmander isnt involved and Stormsurge, since it would be pretty hard to give it +1BS unless you unload all of its guns on one unit using coord fire. Which, imo, is a waste because unless you have no other target why would you put the high power and the low power on the same target? it can splitfire for a reason lol.
Which is kinda ridiculous if you think about it. We didnt lose markerlights, but basically got the reason they exist removed via formations and Fire Team. People thought they were bogus before (which i didnt, since army wide BS3 hurts once you remove the ML) theyre going to be livid now lol.
So with no Skyrays being available to the Hunter Contingent, does the value of Piranhas go up?
Piranhas have always been a cheap unit with a lot of mobility, that could produce drone curtains, and they can carry a decent amount of seeker missiles. However, they always suffered from not having any real shooting when using their Jink saves, which was their main mode of survival, but in the Hunter Cadre their shooting doesn't actually matter since they can be a cheap and easy way of getting the BS buff for other units, while helping themselves, and they can flat out and still shoot now.
It just feels like Piranha can be very solid buff units now, that can also house Seeker Missiles that are pretty solid. The loss of the Markerlights that the Skyray has is a bummer, but they do provide a lot more utility now, when they've already been a reasonable solid unit.
Edit: Don't forget a Piranha with dismounted drones, can provide two separate shooting units in itself for the three unit buff.
I personally think the Piranhas are incredible deals for the points if you just take em in their base form. So many shots, so fast and relatively tough. They take real firepower to down given jinks in the rounds they are just moving anyways and so on. Great Picket fences. I dunno. Hard to beat em. Not popular fr some reason but i have always kinda liked em.
I think the issue with piranhas is that T'au just doesn't need more s5 ap 5 shots. Firewarriors, gundrones, stealth suits, devil fish, and piranhas all fire the same shots. But you are already getting s5 ap5 from cluster rockets of stormsurges, sms on riptides, sms on hammerheads/skyrays, sms on braodsides. Needless to say we have a lot of s5 ap5 and piranhas are just adding more where we could be taking another crisis suit. Keep in mind it takes an average of 9 bs3 s5 ap3 shot to kill a MEQ.
yeah. i didnt say you really need em. i jut think they are worthy additions. the Tau Empire codex allows you to roll out a LOT of builds that are just as good as the others. You can use all the units i nthe codex in my experience and have a lot of success so it doesnt suffr the usual problems of "oh gosh, only these units do anything".
I wouldn't take piranhas for their shooting, I'd take them because they're the closest thing Tau has to a jetbike. In other words, their function is to grab objectives in maelstrom and generally be a nuisance. Sensory spines is a good upgrade for them, fusion isn't.
MLKTH wrote: I wouldn't take piranhas for their shooting, I'd take them because they're the closest thing Tau has to a jetbike. In other words, their function is to grab objectives in maelstrom and generally be a nuisance. Sensory spines is a good upgrade for them, fusion isn't.
I don't know, I think fusion works okay for them. Makes them kind of have the same role as a space marine attack bike w/MM. Costs less than the attack bike too! Plus, Piranhas can take seeker missiles, perhaps we will see more of this option since it is hard to work Sky Rays into the Taucurion. Only problem is that its easier to one-shot a Piranha than an attack bike. Still, the detachable drones help to make up for this shortcoming.
I've wanted Piranhas to be good for years. They're obviously great for harassment and getting from A to B in a hurry, and being able to dump off a few drones to do whatever you like sounds great. They were okay-ish at best as road blocks and objective grabbers prior to the codex, but I feel like they've really taken a hit with Tau's newfound mobility. Granted run+shoot doesn't equal a fast turbo-boosting skimmer, but that extra d6" per turn can make a huge difference, given that it's army-wide. Also, since Ghoskeels are awesome, the need for a highly mobile, small-arms-resistant fire platform is reduced dramatically. I'm not convinced the Retaliation Cadre is all that, but deep striking half your army is a nice way to get around being less mobile than many other armies, too.
Maybe you could figure out a way to abuse Piranhas by dumping off drones and using drone controllers for a bunch of BS5 shots or something. I want them to have a place in a competitive Tau army, but I'm not seeing it right now. I'd much rather have a decked-out Ghostkeel or a few lone crisis suits running around the board than a few Piranhas.
MLKTH wrote: I wouldn't take piranhas for their shooting, I'd take them because they're the closest thing Tau has to a jetbike. In other words, their function is to grab objectives in maelstrom and generally be a nuisance. Sensory spines is a good upgrade for them, fusion isn't.
I also like how they can pin enemy units in place at critical times.
Just played a 2k game with a hunter contingent, OSC, AND FBC against two knights, storm lord, grav cents and scouts to flavor...
He had first turn and resulted in only putting two wounds on my riptide and killing a single sniper drone...
The resulting str 7 and D missiles dropped both knights in excess totalling 25+(with at least one deathblow result) unsaved hull points between the two.
MilkmanAl wrote:I've wanted Piranhas to be good for years. They're obviously great for harassment and getting from A to B in a hurry, and being able to dump off a few drones to do whatever you like sounds great. They were okay-ish at best as road blocks and objective grabbers prior to the codex, but I feel like they've really taken a hit with Tau's newfound mobility. Granted run+shoot doesn't equal a fast turbo-boosting skimmer, but that extra d6" per turn can make a huge difference, given that it's army-wide.
It isn't army-wide - it's only for Hunter Cadre units and those within 12" of the Commander and/or Cadre Fireblade. If they die, you lose this ability.
Predictable result of the Stormsurge's abilities, really.
Of all the various odd decisions the rules team have been making lately, creating weapons that punish you for taking anything larger than an infantry model is the most bizzare.
Four independently targetable D-shots to be launched on turn one (Or witheld until a unit that tries to hide in reserves arrives), presumably at BS5? Yep, that's any two large models of your choice essentially auto-deleted.
A unit you can't take without ruining the game for both players is worse than a weak unit.
It isn't army-wide - it's only for Hunter Cadre units and those within 12" of the Commander and/or Cadre Fireblade. If they die, you lose this ability.
Fair enough. That's basically the entirety of what I (and many people, it seems) plan to field, though. In any case, I don't see mobility being something that Tau need a lot of help with.
changemod wrote: Predictable result of the Stormsurge's abilities, really.
Of all the various odd decisions the rules team have been making lately, creating weapons that punish you for taking anything larger than an infantry model is the most bizzare.
Four independently targetable D-shots to be launched on turn one (Or witheld until a unit that tries to hide in reserves arrives), presumably at BS5? Yep, that's any two large models of your choice essentially auto-deleted.
A unit you can't take without ruining the game for both players is worse than a weak unit.
That's kind of how I felt after that game. I may not use it a whole lot at my store since I don't play against power gamers.
If someone is bringing Wraith Knights, pretty sure my conscience is clean about anything I bring. =)
Tau Empire have always seemed to be the "meta breaker army". It has always seemingly made people pay for doing the norm. It basically has been the rock against which the waters of conformity are broken....
changemod wrote:Predictable result of the Stormsurge's abilities, really.
Of all the various odd decisions the rules team have been making lately, creating weapons that punish you for taking anything larger than an infantry model is the most bizzare.
Four independently targetable D-shots to be launched on turn one (Or witheld until a unit that tries to hide in reserves arrives), presumably at BS5? Yep, that's any two large models of your choice essentially auto-deleted.
A unit you can't take without ruining the game for both players is worse than a weak unit.
Those StrD 66.7% of the time do additional hullpoints.
A single StrD will be (very efficient at) doing some hull points. These can be saved by cover saves (Yes, I know!) or invulnerable etc. A '6' results in an awesome deathblow.. but 4 missiles, 1/6 chance.. etc.
I still think you're all missing a major part of why Piranhas are so much better now, they basically read "Dismount drones, target both at a unit, give a unit you control +1BS, and maybe do some damage with the drones/burst."
Piranhas can not only carry Seekers, but also pseudo-Markerlight within the Hunter Contingent since the Drones and Piranha are separate units, so they basically give a unit of your choice +1 BS...
So I see others posting combining firepower with one unit with a drone controller and a seperate unit of drones. Would this work? I could see a unit of sniper drone controllers acting as a mark'o when combined with a seperate unit of marker drones tagging the same unit.
changemod wrote:Predictable result of the Stormsurge's abilities, really.
Of all the various odd decisions the rules team have been making lately, creating weapons that punish you for taking anything larger than an infantry model is the most bizzare.
Four independently targetable D-shots to be launched on turn one (Or witheld until a unit that tries to hide in reserves arrives), presumably at BS5? Yep, that's any two large models of your choice essentially auto-deleted.
A unit you can't take without ruining the game for both players is worse than a weak unit.
Those StrD 66.7% of the time do additional hullpoints.
A single StrD will be (very efficient at) doing some hull points. These can be saved by cover saves (Yes, I know!) or invulnerable etc. A '6' results in an awesome deathblow.. but 4 missiles, 1/6 chance.. etc.
Still - awesome result.
Two missiles will average 6 wounds against a Wraithknight without an invulnerable, 4 against one with.
That's enough to kill or weaken enough to be finished off by other means. A chance of flubbing it, but by that point you're counting on raw chance rather than strategy and there's an equal chance of deathblows.
It isn't army-wide - it's only for Hunter Cadre units and those within 12" of the Commander and/or Cadre Fireblade. If they die, you lose this ability.
Fair enough. That's basically the entirety of what I (and many people, it seems) plan to field, though. In any case, I don't see mobility being something that Tau need a lot of help with.
You can't just field that, you need an auxiliary. Albeit it could just be a drone squad.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So I see others posting combining firepower with one unit with a drone controller and a seperate unit of drones. Would this work? I could see a unit of sniper drone controllers acting as a mark'o when combined with a seperate unit of marker drones tagging the same unit.
Thanks,
Brian
Depends on how people end up viewing sharing of rules with Coordinated Fire Power. If USR share, which I believe RAW and RAI they do, then yes. If not, then no.
Is it worth it to take a shield generator on my Buffmander? Its an expensive system, but these days I'm concerned that with all the high strength low AP weaponry around, the 2+ armor from the Iridium suit might not be enough, even if backed up by a stim injector.
Buffmander should go all tank or none. A properly protected buffmander without his defensive perks is still pretty difficult to get rid of.
If you go shield, go the whole nine yards. Get iridium and stims on top of it. It makes him pricy, but ive RARELY had him die because i keep him in a MP crisis suit blob 36" away. The few guns that reach him at that distance cant splat him and rarely have the rate of fire to burn through 4 4++/FNP wounds (especially since i automatically target anything Lascannon-esk for immediate death so they dont last long)
ZergSmasher wrote: Is it worth it to take a shield generator on my Buffmander? Its an expensive system, but these days I'm concerned that with all the high strength low AP weaponry around, the 2+ armor from the Iridium suit might not be enough, even if backed up by a stim injector.
I'm with Vineheart on this one, I either go passive back line Buffmander or Tank Buffmander, very rarely do I go with a mix of the two.
If you plan to throw the Buffmander out in front and soak shots, the 2+/4++/5+++ is much better than the 2+/5+++ option and will help you out a lot. If on the other hand you just want to hide him in the squad and not use him to tank, you can go 3+/5+++ as Stim Injectors are cheap but the Iridium Armour at that point isn't very worthwhile.
If you want, you can even go with two Commanders using a Hunter Contingent and a Retaliation Cadre, instead of a Mark'O, where you can give one the none-shooting stuff with a Stim Injector and throw him in the back of his unit (Missile Suit Squad) in order to bombard, and then have a Plasma Tankmander that still shoots with the squad but has the Irridium, Shield Gen, and Stim on top of his weapons since he'll be closer and probably in the deep striking Retaliation Cadre.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So I see others posting combining firepower with one unit with a drone controller and a seperate unit of drones. Would this work? I could see a unit of sniper drone controllers acting as a mark'o when combined with a seperate unit of marker drones tagging the same unit.
Thanks,
Brian
This is where the 40k rule bloat really comes in, from rules like this that aren't defined clearly and as such have many different versions.
How you play this depends completely on your gaming group as there are multiple contradictory rulings on it as of right now. It really sucks :/.
MilkmanAl wrote: I've wanted Piranhas to be good for years. They're obviously great for harassment and getting from A to B in a hurry, and being able to dump off a few drones to do whatever you like sounds great. They were okay-ish at best as road blocks and objective grabbers prior to the codex, but I feel like they've really taken a hit with Tau's newfound mobility. Granted run+shoot doesn't equal a fast turbo-boosting skimmer, but that extra d6" per turn can make a huge difference, given that it's army-wide.
The new run and shoot is not army wide. It is a 12" buff zone around the commander or or FireBlade for Hunter Cadre units only, and the old one is still a 12" buff around the Ethereal. I would say the Piranha still has a place as the fast grabber, especially as Piranha also get to Flat-out and shoot with in 12" of the commander for melta with an effective threat range of 29/36". I would call that a nasty turn 1 surprise.
Has anyone tried out the Infiltration Cadre? Getting free Seekers is pretty good since you'll usually shoot Markerlights at units where the Seekers are best anyway. I'm also pretty sold on the Piranha now as it contributes a lot to the Hunter Cadre, while also working well with the amount of Markers you gain from the formation, thanks to it being able to carry Seekers and basically give other units +1 BS easily.
However, the problem I see is the Stealth Suits are still a pretty big tax... Right now I'm looking at something like a Hunter Contingent with both a Retaliation and Infiltration Cadre, though I'm very hesitant with the Infiltration Cadre.
I'm also pretty sold on the Piranha now as it contributes a lot to the Hunter Cadre, while also working well with the amount of Markers you gain from the formation, thanks to it being able to carry Seekers and basically give other units +1 BS easily.
I conflict on how useful the "give other units +1 BS" thing really is for a few reasons. Whatever you'd take instead of the Piranha is obviously a unit in its own right, so you only need 1 more unit firing to get the same bonus. I'd wager that it's pretty unlikely for you to fire fewer than 3 units at something that needs to die, anyway. In other words, the 1 unit-->2 units thing only matters if you're only attacking something with one other unit.The other issue isn't really a strike against Piranhas, per se, but more of an overcrowding issue. All the lists I've brainstormed so far are REALLY short on points for luxuries, and when you already have on the order of 250-300 pts of units in an 1850 list dedicated to force multiplication (in my case, a buffmander and a couple markerlight sources), it's tough for me to justify dropping another 40 here and there for an extra BS on 1 unit. On the other hand, it'd be kind of nice to give, say, a unit of Broadsides or a Riptide a better chance to hit without having to commit to massively overkilling whatever they're targeting. Meh. My jury is out. Like I said in a previous post, I really want Piranhas to be awesome.
One thing I'm pretty confident in is that having them take seekers is probably a poor use of points. Granted, if you're going to do it, the Infiltration Cadre is the right opportunity due to the high ratio of markerlights to offensive potential in the formation. Otherwise, a more permanent source of light vehicle/MC control is probably better. Broadsides, missile pod crisis suits, and Ghostkeels come to mind as superior options. They aren't near as fast, though.
I can't say I'm sold on Piranhas, but the idea of pooping out a bunch of drones (which you'd want to make BS5 with a commander or marksman) and having a ton of essentially 12-pt road blocks is quite appealing. I like the drone swarm concept with this new book a lot. I don't know that an extra fusion blaster is worth 10 points, but if you're taking advantage of the extra BS with regularity, perhaps it is. This is one of those things I'd have to see in action on the table.
Well I always liked Piranhas, and they were on the very edge of being competitive because they were cheap units that provided a lot of utility, however they were mostly redundant at the same time.
You're right in that you wouldn't use them to buff shooting on a squad that needs to die, as you're already shooting that squad in mass, but rather you're using them to buff single squads shooting at something that you want dead but could leave alive. Basically you'd be using it as a Markerlight platform in that sense to simply help out with killing a secondary target.
The problem with mass missile units like Broadsides, missile suits, and Keels is that they're AP4, where as the Seekers are AP3, they're also S7 instead of 8, both of which make a big difference when targeting the things you would with a Seeker. Then again I'm a huge fan of the Skyray and my real hope was that Piranhas would get a Networked Markerlight option so that I could use them as Mini-Rays, but alas it was not to be :(.
I'm not a fan of the Fusion Blaster on them, as really in my opinion their tactical utility units that should be cheap and disposable. Yes, Seekers do add to their points, but they're probably going to be used early and after that you can sacrifice the Piranha. I mean if you take two Piranhas with two seekers each, that's 112 points, 3 less than a Skyray, but you gain an extra Burst Cannon (which sadly can't be turned into an SMS) and two drones. Yes, the Skyray is much better still, but the difference between the two is becoming narrower, and it's pretty hard to include a Skyray in a Hunter Cad.
What support systems are good choices for the Stormsurge? I would say Early Warning Override is probably an auto-include, but Shield Generator could be handy as well (despite the hugely inflated cost).
Reason I ask is because a friend of mine suggested that perhaps instead of buying 3 Ghostkeel suits, I should buy just 1 (so I can run the OSC) and a Stormsurge (since it is really badass and better than Longstrike in the heavy section of the Hunter Contingent). Problem is, if I do go with the Stormsurge, I will likely need to come up with a good source of markerlights.
How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?
Alcibiades wrote: How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?
That doesn't really change anything as the free Seekers come specifically from Markerlight hits, so all of the special stuff doesn't count. Would be cool if they could take Rail Rifles for some benefit, or whatever, but nope D:
Alcibiades wrote: How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?
That doesn't really change anything as the free Seekers come specifically from Markerlight hits, so all of the special stuff doesn't count. Would be cool if they could take Rail Rifles for some benefit, or whatever, but nope D:
Yes, but you get a lot fewer seeker hits. 1 per 3 hits, which at BS3 means 3 guys will get .5 seekers statistically, whereas if you gave them rail rifles they would get 3 hits in RF range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The point here is that normally these units would get shot off the board before they could do much, but due to the formation's rules killing them creates its own problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I suppose this is complicated by the fact that the seekers automatically get ignores cover?
Alcibiades wrote: How do people think running the Infiltration cadre formation thingie would work with the Pathfinders armed with special weapons instead of markerlights?
That doesn't really change anything as the free Seekers come specifically from Markerlight hits, so all of the special stuff doesn't count. Would be cool if they could take Rail Rifles for some benefit, or whatever, but nope D:
Yes, but you get a lot fewer markerlight hits. 1 per 3 hits, which at BS3 means 3 guys will get .5 seekers statistically, whereas if you gave them rail rifles they would get 3 hits in RF range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The point here is that normally these units would get shot off the board before they could do much, but due to the formation's rules killing them creates its own problems.
Oh, ok, I see what you're saying now. I think it's a clever idea, but I think it's the wrong place for it. The issue is that the Infiltration Cadre has a huge tax on it thanks to the two units of Stealth Suits, so it's not exactly the best place to slot in Pathfinder units with special weapons, which I do want to see in action at some point. More so, with the current Hunter Contingent it's very easy to take Pathfinders in the main force with special weapons, and then slot in Marker Drones into as many auxiliary slots as you want. Even if you don't run a Hunter Contingent you should have more than enough ways to gain Markerlights while taking special weapon Pathfinders in your normal force without paying the huge tax of the Infiltration Cadre for them.
Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.
Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.
This is why I was toying with the idea of using them not as ML sources, but, in the infiltration formation, as forward offensive units, using special weapons and pulse accelerator drones.
I'm not going to the wall for this idea; it popped into mind as I was thinking about how to build my pathfinders.
Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.
This is why I was toying with the idea of using them not as ML sources, but, in the infiltration formation, as forward offensive units, using special weapons and pulse accelerator drones.
I'm not going to the wall for this idea; it popped into mind as I was thinking about how to build my pathfinders.
But yea, that's what I'm saying, is that it's fine if you want some special weapons teams when it comes to Pathfinders, I just don't think it's what the Infiltration Cadre wants at all. You'll just be sinking a lot more into that specific formation for something you can get normally, while also gaining none of the benefits from the formation which isn't that great already D:
ZergSmasher wrote: What support systems are good choices for the Stormsurge? I would say Early Warning Override is probably an auto-include, but Shield Generator could be handy as well (despite the hugely inflated cost).
Reason I ask is because a friend of mine suggested that perhaps instead of buying 3 Ghostkeel suits, I should buy just 1 (so I can run the OSC) and a Stormsurge (since it is really badass and better than Longstrike in the heavy section of the Hunter Contingent). Problem is, if I do go with the Stormsurge, I will likely need to come up with a good source of markerlights.
A shield generator, and possibly an Early Warning Override. The shield generator is a must as it is only T6 with a 3+ armor, but a heavy (balanced) point cost. The reliable 4++,5+++ will help a lot keeping the Stormsurge alive. The EWO is because it can fire only the most effective weapon for interceptor and have the remaining weapons for your shooting phase. Also, if you choose to run a Heavy Retribution Cadre, the rule that grants twin-linked to the Stormsurges shooting at a target within 12" of a Ghostkeel applies to any shooting attack.
Pathfinders with special weapons aren't all that good to begin with, in my opinion. 2 guys with rail rifles is 52 points. I'd strongly prefer to have a crisis suit with 2 fusions or 2 plasmas for the same cost. The ion rifle is a rip-off. There are MUCH better sources of S7 AP 4 in our book. When you add in heavy weapon hits as a result of marker light hits, you get the best of both worlds, though. There's no reason to pay more than twice as many points for a flimsy unit just to get a touch more heavy fire out of it at the expense of marker synergy with other units.
For stormsurges, I agree that EWO is basically mandatory, even though by RAW, you're sacrificing 2 shots with whatever weapon you choose to intercept with to get 1 shot immediately. That can make a big difference if you pie plate some grav cents or a demon prince off the board, though. The shield generator is a sticky subject for me. It would obviously help a whole hell of a lot, but at 50 points...ugh. Chances are you'll survive a round of fire against grav Devastators or Centurions without it, but only barely. If you're in cover, you're good to go, so doing your best to make sure your opponent can't gate/pod in for an unobstructed shot is really important. You can save yourself 50 points through smart deployment, and that's probably what I'll opt for.
If you're running the OSC, I can't really see much reason why you wouldn't take 3 Ghostkeels. The formation bonuses are totally awesome, and Ghostkeels are one of the best units in the army, in my opinion. They're just good at everything, so taking more shouldn't be an issue at all. Once you have 3 of them, they get an additional BS from the Fire Team rule, so go for the gusto!
MilkmanAl wrote: Pathfinders with special weapons aren't all that good to begin with, in my opinion. 2 guys with rail rifles is 52 points. I'd strongly prefer to have a crisis suit with 2 fusions or 2 plasmas for the same cost. The ion rifle is a rip-off. There are MUCH better sources of S7 AP 4 in our book.
I'm not going to argue the viability of Pathfinder special weapons, but surely the point is that they can use the weapons after scouting and/or outflanking with a recon drone, not the sheer existence of an S7 AP4 or S6 AP1 weapon profile.
Edit: The problem is that Pathfinders have never really been the best Markerlight sources because they get shot off so easily. Skyrays and Marker Drones have a lot more survival built in, and they really don't cost that much more, plus they general have more utility than Pathfinders, which is really sad. It just feels like Pathfinders are units that try to do too much at once and as such just don't do anything better than anyone else, and at the same time have such conflicting weapons that they can't even be a swiss army knife unit.
This is why I was toying with the idea of using them not as ML sources, but, in the infiltration formation, as forward offensive units, using special weapons and pulse accelerator drones.
I'm not going to the wall for this idea; it popped into mind as I was thinking about how to build my pathfinders.
Depending on your group's RAW/RAI stance on coordinated fire, Pulse Accelerator drones could really extend the target range, thuse rapid fire range of every pulse rifle on the same target as the pathfinders and suddenly be come a very very cheap force multiplier.
I'm not going to argue the viability of Pathfinder special weapons, but surely the point is that they can use the weapons after scouting and/or outflanking with a recon drone, not the sheer existence of an S7 AP4 or S6 AP1 weapon profile.
Fair point. You guys have me thinking really hard about the Infiltration Cadre. It seems pretty popular, on this board at least, so I feel like I'm missing something. I'm (perhaps obviously) trying to come up with ways to exploit the extensive reserves manipulation the formation offers. My philosophy with Tau has always been offense=defense, so keeping a sizable chunk of firepower off the table doesn't compute well. What's the advantage to a large beta strike over just intercepting the living &^%* out of everything that tries to drop on you? Perhaps it'd be nice to have against a mirror match or another army with brutal firepower that was all likely going to be on the table to start the game. I suppose it gives you a good degree of tactical flexibility with deployment, but is that really worth 400 pts of mediocre units? If you go with the Infiltration Cadre, aren't you more or less obligated to roll with Recon Drones in your pathfinder units so that the rest of your toys come in reliably? What's to stop your opponent from more or less just leaving you alone turn 1 in favor of controlling the board and then blowing away 400 pts of your army the following turn? I dunno, it all seems a bit gimmicky to me.
Come on guys, lets not let this thread die like the tactics threads for my other two armies (Dark Angels and Khorne Daemonkin)!
One thing one of my friends suggested tacticswise for the Stormsurge was to not use the stabilizers all the time and use the thing partly as a beatstick with its Stomp attacks, playing it more aggressively. That sounds like a really bad idea to me, especially when you trade all the extra shooting. What does everyone else think?
Vector Strike wrote: I liek ATS with a sturmsurge. So many shots will give you 6s to snipe special weapons
This. Along with the 4++ shield and EWO should be on every stormsurge. Just prepare to have people cry about it and tell you it can only fire 2 weapons a turn unless pyloned to the ground, even thought it has 8 weapons.
ZergSmasher wrote: Come on guys, lets not let this thread die like the tactics threads for my other two armies (Dark Angels and Khorne Daemonkin)!
One thing one of my friends suggested tacticswise for the Stormsurge was to not use the stabilizers all the time and use the thing partly as a beatstick with its Stomp attacks, playing it more aggressively. That sounds like a really bad idea to me, especially when you trade all the extra shooting. What does everyone else think?
Well, the problem with Tau tactic discussions is what is there to talk about?
Other than rule-threading tactics that are debatable if theyre even suppose to be that way (coordinated fire + targetlocks for instance), our codex is pretty straight forward.
We have a number of things we can do but theyre all pretty similar in the end - usually massing high AP or high RoF weapons. Firewarrior + Ethereal tactics, or heavy Suit lists.
I can pretty much field anything thats not Vespid or the Fighter jet and find a use for them. Optimal, no, but useful.
Trying to not buy an insane amount like I did the last few armies I did, so building fairly take all comers, I have the following planned as a superheavy hunter unit:
Shadowsun, three melta crisis suits, a puretide chip on the Shas'Vre for monster/tank hunters, Shadowsun's reroll ones to hit drone and drop it all in using the Stealth Cadre's homing beacons.
ZergSmasher wrote: Come on guys, lets not let this thread die like the tactics threads for my other two armies (Dark Angels and Khorne Daemonkin)!
One thing one of my friends suggested tacticswise for the Stormsurge was to not use the stabilizers all the time and use the thing partly as a beatstick with its Stomp attacks, playing it more aggressively. That sounds like a really bad idea to me, especially when you trade all the extra shooting. What does everyone else think?
I watched a batrep that the player did that, Playing against elder, he charged a windrider unit and stomped on some. I think it would be interesting to try. And then use the shotgun so your dropping Dshots.
Well the Ghostkeels are big time up for discussion in my opinion.
While the SotrmSurge clearly gives the Tau, once again, the title of "matabreaker" with its ability to stop Tournament guys from showing up and auto-winning with their Wraith Knight + Jet bikes, the Ghostkeel is the real X factor in my opinion.
It comes armed to put a serious hurt on armor, and if one chooses, it can be instead armed to take on a larger number of threat types with its optional Raker+Melta combination option.
Its use in the Mirror of Walls formation is undeniable. That Formation is never going to have a problem with armor, ever. Ironically it also has the firepower to take on normal troops too. So the Formation, when you consider the Stealthsuits and the Ghost Keels as one, can take on any threat type and it can stand in the wide open and take punishment, unlike most of its brethren.
This Formation seems as if it is an excellent use of the Stealth suits. And the enemy is forced to decide: do i fire at the big guys, who are screened by little guys, given its cover save? But then if they fire at the little guys with their cover save, all that Ghostkeel firepower is just running amok unchecked!
I have to say: Running this is going to be a lot of fun. Has anyone done it yet?
I plan to do a battle report as soon as i can get the models built and painted. My entire Tau Army is arctic themed, and my Stealthsuits are painted now. My Riptides will be done by Sunday in theory.
One thing I'll say is that this codex is too effective at what it does. My local meta can't handle the stormsurge and the hunter contingent and I am forced to leave some of these items off the table to get a game. A little depressing, but that's why I have my Dark Eldar and White Scars.
DirtyDeeds wrote: One thing I'll say is that this codex is too effective at what it does. My local mega can't handle the stormsurge and the hunter contingent and I am forced to leave some of these items off the table to get a game. A little depressing, but that's why I have my Dark Eldar and White Scars.
The Tau Empire has new weapons and it wil take your enemies a bit of time to compensate like always. But perhaps allowing some people to list tailor and try to beat it would train them up. Just give them your list and let them work out a good counter. Banshees, Dirge Casters, Psyker powers that attack leadership and other goodies all come to mind as potential answers.
I am fairly certain a Grav Gun festooned Battle Company can do the trick. The Tau Empire spends all of round one killing the transports that it can (and that wont be a majority) and in round two you start putting wounds on the StormSurge from inside. More tanks die. Round three you finish the job and prepare for endgame charges. Im not a Marine but If i was: that could definitely work.
Pinning the Tau Empire and not allowing them too much room to take objectives is legit and so an army that can box them in is going to do better. If they go the Deep Striking route, it certainly takes away a lot of the threat early on and the DS stuff is going to have to decide whether to abandon its starting contingent or be forced to DS back towards their friends. tough decision.
Tau Empire hates melee so anything you can do to force that issue is good. Outshooting them is a losing strategy. You have to dominate them with your fists, against which they have a very poor set of options. Ghostkeels actually aren't terribad in close combat and will be able to defend their Stealth Teams somewhat at the expense of their firepower. But that might be a trade off a battle company is willing to make!
I play a lot of armies so I kind of look at the armies from both sides. I know where Tau fail: melee and Psyker phase. I know where they dont: shooting and movement phase. Given that information, any foe should be able to at least know what to do and not do. the rest is up to terrain, dice and mid-game adjustments.
My Tau Empire force is going to look cool. That's a big priority. I want it to look awesome on the field. But i better not hear a peep of complaint out of these dudes who have been bringing their Knights, Wraith Knights and White Scars Grav Cannon spam. Not a peep. Not one.
I will exercise more mercy of course against others, but against these foes, there should be no sounds of complaint at all. they've been blessed to face foes who must bring their A game to compete. I have welcomed the challenge. Now they must welcome mine.
Can't handle the stormsurge and hunter contingent? They must be playing rather downpowered lists.
Yes, the contingent is powerful, but no more than decurion or gladius and the likes.
And the surge, while cool, is not the toughest thing out there, by far. He can be erased by massed dakka, not too many quality shots, or semi competent assault units. I'd hardly rate it as top tier unit. High tier, but there is plenty better out there.
Ghostkeel to me is the new swiss army knife of our army, with its cost preventing complete spam tactics.
Even without the OSC formation, its incredibly tanky for its cost (arguably only slightly weaker than a Riptide defensively) and regardless of its weapons you pick it can take on multiple threats effectively. Crisis Suits have difficulty taking anything on that their gun isnt designed to deal with. Melta -> vehicles, Plasma -> 2+/3+ saves, Bursts/AFB -> Hordes, CIB/Missiles -> High Str Spam for typically anti MC or light vehicles. If theyre not targeting something their weapon is designed to crush, they have a lot of luck involved.
Ghostkeels still have that obviously but its nowhere near as noticeable. CIR + Fusion gives him high rate of fire w/ Large Blast option for numbers and a TL Melta for vehicles. The high strength of the CIR also makes him cripple light vehicles, so thats 3 targets he will be happy to shoot at so far. But im not done. Ghostkeels are an MC, so they have Smash, Fear, and HoW. Yes hes still WS2, but remember Fear reduces WS to 1 if you fail it and unless he faces something dedicated to melee, he still hits on a 4. Give him a couple of buddies, thats 9/12 on the charge S6 Ap2 attacks with very tanky bodies as well. That means they can charge too, thats a 4th option theyre good at dealing with. Long as you avoid 30man boy blobs or dedicated melee units that strike at init with AP2/3 weapons and/or WS5, a trio can do some hefty melee damage. And personally, thats a very low number of things i want to avoid.
Add in the perks of OSR, and now he wants heavy vehicles too because he STILL hits them hard, and arguably you want the Burst over the Melta in the OSR because 4 S5 against AV10/11 > 1 S8 Melta considering the range factor and glancing to death is much more reliable than exploding.
And im the same way DirtyDeeds. I dont like fielding broken, overpowered armies like the entire Eldar dex or various Marine formation shenanigans. Unless im facing Eldar or im asked to go all out, i leave my Stormsurge and my OSR/Hunter Cadre at home, theyre too strong and cheesy in a friendly game.
Stormsurge isnt designed to be a tank, thats obvious not from its 3+ armor but its T6 stat. Its only tanky purely because its a GMC so its mass of wounds doesnt go away in one round minus a ton of Str D shots or a lucky Deathblow shot. My Riptides are still more durable than my Surge because of the 2+ armor, but it can sometimes fall to a random ID attack while the Surge cant.
BoomWolf wrote: Can't handle the stormsurge and hunter contingent? They must be playing rather downpowered lists.
Yes, the contingent is powerful, but no more than decurion or gladius and the likes.
And the surge, while cool, is not the toughest thing out there, by far. He can be erased by massed dakka, not too many quality shots, or semi competent assault units. I'd hardly rate it as top tier unit. High tier, but there is plenty better out there.
Wait... lets be fair. "no more than" the Battle Company and the Decurion? So you'd suggest that because it doesn't rival THOSE it should be dismissed?
No.
I am all for Tau but lets not try to minimize what is clearly a very good contingent. I think those reading who don't play Tau probably find this comparison a bit spurious because by that measure, no formation is "cool" right now! Lol.
It's a very good formation. It doesnt have to be as good as those you mention in order for this to be true.
Thats one thing i despise about the 40k community. Most people immediately dismiss anything thats actually pretty decent/good because its not as broken as something else thats so glaringly broken its a shock it wasnt FAQ'd to fix it, even though GW doesnt usually do that.
Tau codex in its entirety, including the formations, are about as balanced as you can get in this game without going to ultimate cheese levels of strong. They still cross the line imo a bit, but not that badly. Dont care if its doing a 1up on the Eldar dex, i just dont want completely useless units (vespid and our fliers are just garbage....wish they fixed them)
Well... Are they? I wrote this a bit ago:
Tau Flyers
Tau flyers have something that equalizes them a pretty fair amount: the tools to defend their flyers preemptively and after the fact.
I also own 27 Stingwings. Happen to like them. Tough 4, 4+ saves, with Hit and run? Awesome. Equally awesome: STR 5 AP 3 blasters at better range than Breachers. Oh and they are Jump infantry and thus can actually get around fast and DEEP STRIKE! I love Deep Striking in with Tau in general. i play super duper mobile so there's that. No gun lines for this guy.
I just don't see how Vespids are good, and I'm usually one to give things the benefit of the doubt. They just seem really confused in terms of their high initiative and close range weapons, but so few shots, low attack count, and expensive points. Breachers just seem more reasonable as they are a more extreme and focused version of Vespids.
Honestly, if I could make two changes to the Tau army, I'd make Vespids and Stealth Suits troop choices. Sure, they'd still be a little over priced, but they'd at least be unique enough to be considered even at the high points cost when they basically replace 45 points of troops in that situation.
Vespid are the epitome of two roles badly mushed into one. unit.
Their guns scream anti meq. Wounds on 3s, pens power armor, sounds great - except our entire codex is good at doing that for cheaper and/or safer.
Crazy high init and Hit and Run + Jump movement, saying they want melee combat. But they have no melee weapons and their melee stats are still trash.
Ive tried using them via proxy, since i have kroot i just used them as proxy. Opened up a Heavy slot in a single CAD list so i could bring sniper drones by using Vespid instead of an Ionhead for anti 3+ armor units. They did jack squat compared to their cost.
I wish they'd fix Vespid to actually do one of their two roles properly. Obviously giving Tau an amazing melee unit would be a bit out of the question, but one that can hold their ground and isnt deathly afraid of it would be nice - coupled with their speed, they can contest objectives easily.
I think giving Tau an amazing melee unit is fine, as long as it's over costed. As in they take a top tier melee unit and port it into Tau but tax it like 5pts+ per model, such that you can still take it but you're paying more for it by not taking allies. This could be a fine role for Vespid or something like Tau Blademasters who were trained by that one Ethereal with the super glaive thing, where they can be as good as Necron Wraiths but cost like 5pts extra but can't reanimate.
Really that's a good way to balance armies, let everyone do everything, but then make certain things cheaper and certain things more expensive than the middle ground cost, that way you're encouraged, but not required to play in that style and have more control over how the army functions. Trying to limit access to it completely just leaves situations where the army can't function in certain modes completely.
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On an unrelated note, has anyone tried large Kroot Squads with Sniper Rounds lately? I remember seeing some people doing that during the mid period of 6th ed Tau with a lot of success but haven't seen it since.
I mean even with minimum squads in the Hunter Contingent that's 30 Sniper shots at 24" range, on models that have infiltrate, for only 198 points. You can even throw in a Hound for acute senses to get better positioning.
Tinkrr wrote: I think giving Tau an amazing melee unit is fine, as long as it's over costed. As in they take a top tier melee unit and port it into Tau but tax it like 5pts+ per model, such that you can still take it but you're paying more for it by not taking allies. This could be a fine role for Vespid or something like Tau Blademasters who were trained by that one Ethereal with the super glaive thing, where they can be as good as Necron Wraiths but cost like 5pts extra but can't reanimate.
Really that's a good way to balance armies, let everyone do everything, but then make certain things cheaper and certain things more expensive than the middle ground cost, that way you're encouraged, but not required to play in that style and have more control over how the army functions. Trying to limit access to it completely just leaves situations where the army can't function in certain modes completely.
To touch on this, ive always imagined samurai drones with power weapons or something(ap4 ion blades?), just something that has always just been in my wishlist for Tau, Melee vespids might fill that void also though.
Tinkrr wrote: I think giving Tau an amazing melee unit is fine, as long as it's over costed. As in they take a top tier melee unit and port it into Tau but tax it like 5pts+ per model, such that you can still take it but you're paying more for it by not taking allies. This could be a fine role for Vespid or something like Tau Blademasters who were trained by that one Ethereal with the super glaive thing, where they can be as good as Necron Wraiths but cost like 5pts extra but can't reanimate.
Really that's a good way to balance armies, let everyone do everything, but then make certain things cheaper and certain things more expensive than the middle ground cost, that way you're encouraged, but not required to play in that style and have more control over how the army functions. Trying to limit access to it completely just leaves situations where the army can't function in certain modes completely.
To touch on this, ive always imagined samurai drones with power weapons or something(ap4 ion blades?), just something that has always just been in my wishlist for Tau, Melee vespids might fill that void also though.
Back when people were making wishlists for the codex, one of my ideas was "Suicide Drones", which were basically work drones that were used for clear cutting forests and such, re-purposed to combat. The idea wasn't that they were particularly good in combat normally, as they'd have rather basic close combat profiles, but each time one was killed it would be rigged to explode in a shrapnel blast of chainsaw bits and more. I mean we know the Tau use fail safe detonators so an augmented form of a flechette dispenser wouldn't be out of the question, especially on harvesting worlds where the Earth Caste had to rig up defense systems, using drones, on the go while they waited for the Fire Caste to arrive.
Tinkrr wrote: I think giving Tau an amazing melee unit is fine, as long as it's over costed. As in they take a top tier melee unit and port it into Tau but tax it like 5pts+ per model, such that you can still take it but you're paying more for it by not taking allies. This could be a fine role for Vespid or something like Tau Blademasters who were trained by that one Ethereal with the super glaive thing, where they can be as good as Necron Wraiths but cost like 5pts extra but can't reanimate.
Really that's a good way to balance armies, let everyone do everything, but then make certain things cheaper and certain things more expensive than the middle ground cost, that way you're encouraged, but not required to play in that style and have more control over how the army functions. Trying to limit access to it completely just leaves situations where the army can't function in certain modes completely.
=================
On an unrelated note, has anyone tried large Kroot Squads with Sniper Rounds lately? I remember seeing some people doing that during the mid period of 6th ed Tau with a lot of success but haven't seen it since.
I mean even with minimum squads in the Hunter Contingent that's 30 Sniper shots at 24" range, on models that have infiltrate, for only 198 points. You can even throw in a Hound for acute senses to get better positioning.
I dont think overcharging for a good melee unit would be fair or proper. Instead, the player would have an opportunity cost - if steath teams, vespid, strike teams, kroot, and breachers teams are all troops, the player would give up the invuln of the breachers, the kroot hordes and ammo, the strike shot count, and the stealth team stealth and infiltration. Vespid are garbage fast attack but good troops.
What I've seen a lot of is models that don't really want to be in melee (but maybe don't fall over like a wet paper towel if they do happen to get there) and work well at close range. I like that kind of tradeoff, as it forces you to move tactically and gives meaningful balancing levers.
Tinkrr wrote: I think giving Tau an amazing melee unit is fine, as long as it's over costed. As in they take a top tier melee unit and port it into Tau but tax it like 5pts+ per model, such that you can still take it but you're paying more for it by not taking allies. This could be a fine role for Vespid or something like Tau Blademasters who were trained by that one Ethereal with the super glaive thing, where they can be as good as Necron Wraiths but cost like 5pts extra but can't reanimate.
Really that's a good way to balance armies, let everyone do everything, but then make certain things cheaper and certain things more expensive than the middle ground cost, that way you're encouraged, but not required to play in that style and have more control over how the army functions. Trying to limit access to it completely just leaves situations where the army can't function in certain modes completely.
=================
On an unrelated note, has anyone tried large Kroot Squads with Sniper Rounds lately? I remember seeing some people doing that during the mid period of 6th ed Tau with a lot of success but haven't seen it since.
I mean even with minimum squads in the Hunter Contingent that's 30 Sniper shots at 24" range, on models that have infiltrate, for only 198 points. You can even throw in a Hound for acute senses to get better positioning.
I dont think overcharging for a good melee unit would be fair or proper. Instead, the player would have an opportunity cost - if steath teams, vespid, strike teams, kroot, and breachers teams are all troops, the player would give up the invuln of the breachers, the kroot hordes and ammo, the strike shot count, and the stealth team stealth and infiltration. Vespid are garbage fast attack but good troops.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying as it seems you merged two different topics into one. What I was saying was that one way to make things more balanced is to give every army every tool, but then scale cost for tools in each army so that it it their theme, making it easier for armies to build "take all comers" lists without allies, but they'd be giving up a little points to fill holes in their list when it came to things their not adept at. The simple version of this is Magic: The Gathering, where Red is the king of direct damage, so with one Red mana you can do 2 (3 in extreme cases) damage to a target, but on the other hand all other colours have access do direct damage, but it costs 2 mana of any colour to do 2 damage. You're basically paying a tax to do something you're not supposed to normally do in that army, but it means everyone can have all the tools.
As for the other topic, I'm for moving Vespids and Stealthsuits without changes to troops, maybe even moving Vespids to troops and giving them a very slight point decrease. It would give Tau a lot of options in list building as there's an argument to be made for bringing any of those as troops, with each being best based on the scenario. It's only when you have to bring those in addition to troops that the points become tight.
So i just had a Coldstar commander severely piss off an IG player lol. Flew behind him and peppered the rear ends of two leman russ tanks to death. Oh that was so satisfying rofl.
He then promptly did a faceplant because the 1 wound i didnt save forced me to the ground and i failed my 4++. Oh well he took out 2 tanks rofl
So i just had a Coldstar commander severely piss off an IG player lol. Flew behind him and peppered the rear ends of two leman russ tanks to death. Oh that was so satisfying rofl.
I want the Coldstar to be good. I really do. I just don't see it as anything more than a novelty, though. There are lots of better, cheaper options to get that sort of firepower.
So i just had a Coldstar commander severely piss off an IG player lol. Flew behind him and peppered the rear ends of two leman russ tanks to death. Oh that was so satisfying rofl.
I want the Coldstar to be good. I really do. I just don't see it as anything more than a novelty, though. There are lots of better, cheaper options to get that sort of firepower.
I know it's not exactly the best source for data points, but the Mini Wargaming guys did do some battle reports where they used what the believed were competitive lists and the Tau player did use the Coldstar to some reasonable effect. (One of the Battle Reports with Eldar vs. Tau, multiple Wraith Knights and the like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxPbKjf5Evs )
I think the fact that it's not that good is something that makes it that much more likely to survive and get shots off on random things, since it's kind of a pain to kill it as is, and there are larger priority targets with much better fire power, so it's basically a mosquito people are more likely to ignore while focusing on things like Broadsides or Stormsurges. That doesn't mean it's exactly great, but at least it's playable in the sense that it can be a squad on its own, that will generally get some value.
Edit: Realistically you're not paying that much for the flying buff, since if you do the math as 1.5 twin linked Burst Cannons and 1 missile pod, the flight upgrade only costs 22 points, which is a little pricey but not as bad as viewing it as 60 points. You're also gaining 2.5 weapons on the model, as opposed to 2, and you can even argue it's 4 weapons because it's a Twin Linked Burst Cannon that functions as one and a half normal burst cannons. Which really just forces you to ask the question if your list wants that kind of weapon load out on a model like that, which could be the case, but it's not something you'd slot into your list normally, since it's somewhat redundant.
So i just had a Coldstar commander severely piss off an IG player lol. Flew behind him and peppered the rear ends of two leman russ tanks to death. Oh that was so satisfying rofl.
I want the Coldstar to be good. I really do. I just don't see it as anything more than a novelty, though. There are lots of better, cheaper options to get that sort of firepower.
I know it's not exactly the best source for data points, but the Mini Wargaming guys did do some battle reports where they used what the believed were competitive lists and the Tau player did use the Coldstar to some reasonable effect. (One of the Battle Reports with Eldar vs. Tau, multiple Wraith Knights and the like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxPbKjf5Evs )
I think the fact that it's not that good is something that makes it that much more likely to survive and get shots off on random things, since it's kind of a pain to kill it as is, and there are larger priority targets with much better fire power, so it's basically a mosquito people are more likely to ignore while focusing on things like Broadsides or Stormsurges. That doesn't mean it's exactly great, but at least it's playable in the sense that it can be a squad on its own, that will generally get some value.
Edit: Realistically you're not paying that much for the flying buff, since if you do the math as 1.5 twin linked Burst Cannons and 1 missile pod, the flight upgrade only costs 22 points, which is a little pricey but not as bad as viewing it as 60 points. You're also gaining 2.5 weapons on the model, as opposed to 2, and you can even argue it's 4 weapons because it's a Twin Linked Burst Cannon that functions as one and a half normal burst cannons. Which really just forces you to ask the question if your list wants that kind of weapon load out on a model like that, which could be the case, but it's not something you'd slot into your list normally, since it's somewhat redundant.
There are 3 main problems with Coldstar:
T4 makes him such a liability as a flier. One unsaved wound can cause an insta kill from falling.
He cannot take the Iridium armor (T5, 2+ save) which is almost a must.
Having both a Burst Cannon and Missile Pods are not the most ideal combination of weapons.
So i just had a Coldstar commander severely piss off an IG player lol. Flew behind him and peppered the rear ends of two leman russ tanks to death. Oh that was so satisfying rofl.
I want the Coldstar to be good. I really do. I just don't see it as anything more than a novelty, though. There are lots of better, cheaper options to get that sort of firepower.
I know it's not exactly the best source for data points, but the Mini Wargaming guys did do some battle reports where they used what the believed were competitive lists and the Tau player did use the Coldstar to some reasonable effect. (One of the Battle Reports with Eldar vs. Tau, multiple Wraith Knights and the like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxPbKjf5Evs )
I think the fact that it's not that good is something that makes it that much more likely to survive and get shots off on random things, since it's kind of a pain to kill it as is, and there are larger priority targets with much better fire power, so it's basically a mosquito people are more likely to ignore while focusing on things like Broadsides or Stormsurges. That doesn't mean it's exactly great, but at least it's playable in the sense that it can be a squad on its own, that will generally get some value.
Edit: Realistically you're not paying that much for the flying buff, since if you do the math as 1.5 twin linked Burst Cannons and 1 missile pod, the flight upgrade only costs 22 points, which is a little pricey but not as bad as viewing it as 60 points. You're also gaining 2.5 weapons on the model, as opposed to 2, and you can even argue it's 4 weapons because it's a Twin Linked Burst Cannon that functions as one and a half normal burst cannons. Which really just forces you to ask the question if your list wants that kind of weapon load out on a model like that, which could be the case, but it's not something you'd slot into your list normally, since it's somewhat redundant.
There are 3 main problems with Coldstar:
T4 makes him such a liability as a flier. One unsaved wound can cause an insta kill from falling.
He cannot take the Iridium armor (T5, 2+ save) which is almost a must.
Having both a Burst Cannon and Missile Pods are not the most ideal combination of weapons.
Yes, yes, and yes.
He's not a main feature of an army, and I don't want to give the impression that I think it's a good power unit, I just think there are situations where you can field one and accomplish something, but it's definitely a model that's intended to be another unit in your army instead of the star. I'm just saying if you really want that kind of Burst Cannon heavy load out on a flying model then the Coldstar is a reasonable annoyance for the opponent since they'll usually sink more fire power into it than most other things, or simply ignore it as most people should.
So i just had a Coldstar commander severely piss off an IG player lol. Flew behind him and peppered the rear ends of two leman russ tanks to death. Oh that was so satisfying rofl.
I want the Coldstar to be good. I really do. I just don't see it as anything more than a novelty, though. There are lots of better, cheaper options to get that sort of firepower.
I know it's not exactly the best source for data points, but the Mini Wargaming guys did do some battle reports where they used what the believed were competitive lists and the Tau player did use the Coldstar to some reasonable effect. (One of the Battle Reports with Eldar vs. Tau, multiple Wraith Knights and the like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxPbKjf5Evs )
I think the fact that it's not that good is something that makes it that much more likely to survive and get shots off on random things, since it's kind of a pain to kill it as is, and there are larger priority targets with much better fire power, so it's basically a mosquito people are more likely to ignore while focusing on things like Broadsides or Stormsurges. That doesn't mean it's exactly great, but at least it's playable in the sense that it can be a squad on its own, that will generally get some value.
Edit: Realistically you're not paying that much for the flying buff, since if you do the math as 1.5 twin linked Burst Cannons and 1 missile pod, the flight upgrade only costs 22 points, which is a little pricey but not as bad as viewing it as 60 points. You're also gaining 2.5 weapons on the model, as opposed to 2, and you can even argue it's 4 weapons because it's a Twin Linked Burst Cannon that functions as one and a half normal burst cannons. Which really just forces you to ask the question if your list wants that kind of weapon load out on a model like that, which could be the case, but it's not something you'd slot into your list normally, since it's somewhat redundant.
There are 3 main problems with Coldstar:
T4 makes him such a liability as a flier. One unsaved wound can cause an insta kill from falling.
He cannot take the Iridium armor (T5, 2+ save) which is almost a must.
Having both a Burst Cannon and Missile Pods are not the most ideal combination of weapons.
Yes, yes, and yes.
He's not a main feature of an army, and I don't want to give the impression that I think it's a good power unit, I just think there are situations where you can field one and accomplish something, but it's definitely a model that's intended to be another unit in your army instead of the star. I'm just saying if you really want that kind of Burst Cannon heavy load out on a flying model then the Coldstar is a reasonable annoyance for the opponent since they'll usually sink more fire power into it than most other things, or simply ignore it as most people should.
Agreed! Coldstar is something that I think would be a lot of fun to play around with and try in some friendly games, but I wouldn't use him if I was really trying to win.
Agreed! Coldstar is something that I think would be a lot of fun to play around with and try in some friendly games, but I wouldn't use him if I was really trying to win.
I can see him being in a high end competitive list, but as a very niche choice that isn't commonly played. It's just one of those units that if you think your list needs that specific niche filled, you bring it, but otherwise it's not really worthwhile, which isn't necessarily a bad design for what's basically a piece of wargear.
Hes nothing more than a gimick. Hes fun as hell to use and hes not bad by any means in a friendly game, but yeah once you go competitive leave him at home.
I can understand not letting him have full weapon access, but i dont like the MP tacked on there. The burst actually does a lot of damage since all 6 shots pretty much always hit (BS5 TL...they aint missing) i would have much prefered either a second Burst or an Airburster over the MP. If he could exchange his weapons, everyone would use him and put dual fusions on him (or plasmas) and immediately hunt rear armor. He would devour vehicles of almost any stature and pose a HUGE threat to fliers.
I can also understand not giving him Iridium because a 2+ FMC is a bit overkill to me, but i wish they gave him a rule to either ignore grounding tests entirely due to his squishy nature on the ground, or make it S7 so it cant splat him.
Besides, i like my kitbash Coldstar commander. I made him a year ago out of a crisis suit + broadside legs + various bits and forgot about him. He fits the Coldstar image so i gave him the proper guns and based him.
I'm just saying, you can't view the Coldstar as a commander, you just have to treat it as a different Razorshark that's generally better. It's a completely different concept than a Commander, which is what I think makes most people struggle with the unit in play, as it's filling a completely different role than a Commander does.
Oh yeah, my friend made the mistake of thinking he was my Warlord. Why i dont understand lol that would be stupid to make him the warlord. Too easy to gimp for Slay the Warlord and none of the traits really help him all that much. He later mentioned that he would have ignored that thing if he didnt think it was the Warlord for 3 turns lol.
I brought him in the Retaliation Cadre, deepstriking the whole mess. Btw, dont deepstrike a full broadside squad. That almost ended badly because i totally misjudged their footprint. They didnt mishap but i was forced to land either in the corner of the table or right dab smack in the middle of 2 IG guardsmen units, a BA dreadnaught, a still full strength Devastators squad, and only a turn away from his termies' assault range.
They didnt last long rofl. But they still devoured that dread's rear armor and ate most of the termies before being charged.
Mhm, I think the more people play the Coldstar, and the more they realise it should never be a warlord but rather a better pseud-Razorshark, your opponents will start ignoring it more, which will let it do its thing a lot better. It's a new flashy unit right now, so people will focus a lot on it, but over time it'll settle as just another unit in the army, and that's when it shines, when it's left alone because it's too much of an annoyance to deal with, but still peppers things with basically 6 auto hit Burst Cannon shots each turn.
I really like the Retaliation Cadre, I think it's honestly better than the Hunter Contingent as a whole, simply because everything in it you want anyway and the ability to assure a deep strike turn two is amazing.
They're Broadsides, I've never really seen them last all that long, especially when they're unable to move without snap shotting, which the Retaliation Cadre solves pretty well D:
My broadsides usually dont die without something deepstriking/droppoding behind them or im already losing the game anyway. The few guns that threaten them only take out a random drone here and there and never have the rate of fire to kill them in a reasonable time. Come to think of it, i cant remember the last time they died. Drones die all the time, but the broadsides usually stick around and i usually have the lascannons removed by the time the broadsides are vulnerable to them.
Though i was glad about one thing in that game. My friend is finally starting to realize that if he cant kill something quickly to ignore it. He had a crazy itch to fire his leman russ at my Riptide (whichever one it is that has the S8 Armorbane shot) since i had no vehicles outside Piranhas that were out of sight to it. But he always decided to explode a crisis suit (and usually did) instead, because it would take him 3 turns minimum to kill the Riptide between it and his two random marines with plasmas, assuming i didnt pass something on a 5++ or FNP.
Speaking of which, ive never had a Riptide be so useless. I failed 3 of 4 nova charges, though i FNP'd two of them. I Gets Hot! two of my damn Ion blasts and completely wiffed a third. I had it charge his Leman Russ that was sitting next to an objective and i rolled quad 1s when punching its rear armor. I was baffled lol
Im tempted to buy a Hazard Suit with Phased Ion Blasters since im already going to be placing an order for the Leviathan Dreadnaught to build/paint for said friend as a birthday gift. Its a heavy for BA so he can use it and its pretty good/not CRAZY expensive. Hazard suits arent amazing but i see them as another fun model to mess with (if they were 3 wounds or 20pts cheaper i'd say they'd be amazing) Though now that i look at it, i may get R'alai instead. Somehow i doubt a solo Hazard suit would do anything but R'alai looks better than i thought. I compared him to a regular commander with shields/iridium for T5 and hes pretty much the exact same price, but lacks the fancy gun (i just discounted the drones by 24pts since theyre literally markerdrones that hes forced to take. They arent even networked which is odd)
His warlord trait is kinda lame though. Then again i dont want my warlord to be completely vulnerable lol.
I mean, obviously pref enemy IC would have to work on the whole unit an IC is in otherwise you literally cant use it unless an IC is alone or you Precision Shot them so its not useless but its still kinda trash compared to the multitude of traits we can use.
I dont get the drones though. They fire at the same target, so they literally cant do anything for him other than soak a couple wounds. Blacksun filters on Markerlights? Even in the old nightfighting rules, thats only 6" extra reach which R'alai cant reach anyway.
Wish they were T5 and networked so he can use his own marks. Considering he cannot join a unit, seems fair to me.
Am I interpreting the new FSE auxiliary formations correctlyin that you can essentially use the Piranha formation to generate 32 gun drones PER TURN? That seems...uh...maybe more than a little broken. Slap 2 of those babies and a Hunter Cadre in and 1850 for 64 new BS5 gun drones every turn. Seems fair.
MilkmanAl wrote: Am I interpreting the new FSE auxiliary formations correctlyin that you can essentially use the Piranha formation to generate 32 gun drones PER TURN? That seems...uh...maybe more than a little broken. Slap 2 of those babies and a Hunter Cadre in and 1850 for 64 new BS5 gun drones every turn. Seems fair.
Yeah RAW that is exactly how it works lol. Plus any piranhas that were killed are replaced as long as one model in the unit is still alive
5 piranha = 200 points
Formation
3 full piranha units and 1 single piranha = 640
So 3 full formation is 1920 points.
thats a total of 48 piranhas
So each turn, you generate 96 drones (1344 points).... rinse and repeat... lol
I don't think you'd be able to do the seeker trick every turn since you leave for ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase, but still, that's 640pts per formation for bare-bones piranhas. Unless you're up against Green Tide or something else ridiculous that can block your entire board edge, you're basically guaranteed 448 pts of drones from each formation every turn. Holy *&^$
Jeez, a lot of those formations seem really powerful with how much free stuff they gain D:
The drone formation is actually very powerful if you're using the Piranha nonsense since all of a sudden all of those drones gain +1 BS, and your marker drones are just better than Pathfinders that have a Jink save and more.
Also if you're using the Hunter Cad as your base, does that just mean you double up on Decurion buffs or only gain the the main buffs from the FSE but not the Hunter Cad?
Jeez, a lot of those formations seem really powerful with how much free stuff they gain D:
The drone formation is actually very powerful if you're using the Piranha nonsense since all of a sudden all of those drones gain +1 BS, and your marker drones are just better than Pathfinders that have a Jink save and more.
Also if you're using the Hunter Cad as your base, does that just mean you double up on Decurion buffs or only gain the the main buffs from the FSE but not the Hunter Cad?
They get the Dawn Blade Contingent and the Hunter Cadre rules, but they do not get the Hunter Contingent rules, which is the Coordinated Firepower rule that lets everyone fire together.
Razerous wrote: Am I right in thinking you can field a formation in its own right?
But you still need a warlord etc to field a Battle-Forged army.
So you could field a Hunter Contingent alongside a.. Drone Net Formation?
Yes, you can run any formation alone, as they can be a detachment onto themselves.
The Drone-Net won't be able to join in the coordinated fire, but will still buff all the Drones in the Hunter Contingent.
Any and all of these formations are their own formation. The Hunter Contingent is our way of merging them all into one big formation with formations inside the formation. The rules of that formation doesnt spread to others but the Hunter's rules will add to say the Stealth Cadre or Retal Cadre.
Also, who in their right flippin mind would EVER run the Ethereal Council except in fluff battles?
3-7 Ethereals, which can be Aun'Va or Aun'Shi as well. They form their OWN UNIT (remember, T3 no armor saves) and cannot be merged into other units. 24" LD10 bubble is nice and all 4 Elements invocations is also interesting but heres the kicker:
Thats 3-7 free VPs. It says absolutely nothing about only being worth 1 VP if the unit dies, so that means every single Ethereal is worth a VP then the whole unit is worth another if unit kills are worth points too.
Who the heck would EVER do that lol. Omg that is just soooo bad. I mean, you can hide 3 ethereals in a Devilfish and get the bonus while giving them a 3+ jink, but still thats 3-5 VP just ASKING for anti tank weaponry to find them.
Jeez, a lot of those formations seem really powerful with how much free stuff they gain D:
The drone formation is actually very powerful if you're using the Piranha nonsense since all of a sudden all of those drones gain +1 BS, and your marker drones are just better than Pathfinders that have a Jink save and more.
Also if you're using the Hunter Cad as your base, does that just mean you double up on Decurion buffs or only gain the the main buffs from the FSE but not the Hunter Cad?
They get the Dawn Blade Contingent and the Hunter Cadre rules, but they do not get the Hunter Contingent rules, which is the Coordinated Firepower rule that lets everyone fire together.
Ah, ok, that makes a lot more sense, I missed that the Hunter Cadre and Hunter Contingent were two different things.
Still, that Piranha Formation with the Drone Formation is really good since the drones buff the free drones you produce, and you just have a ton of Markerlights from them for all of the free Seeker Missiles to bombard a ton.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Any and all of these formations are their own formation. The Hunter Contingent is our way of merging them all into one big formation with formations inside the formation. The rules of that formation doesnt spread to others but the Hunter's rules will add to say the Stealth Cadre or Retal Cadre.
Also, who in their right flippin mind would EVER run the Ethereal Council except in fluff battles?
3-7 Ethereals, which can be Aun'Va or Aun'Shi as well. They form their OWN UNIT (remember, T3 no armor saves) and cannot be merged into other units. 24" LD10 bubble is nice and all 4 Elements invocations is also interesting but heres the kicker:
Thats 3-7 free VPs. It says absolutely nothing about only being worth 1 VP if the unit dies, so that means every single Ethereal is worth a VP then the whole unit is worth another if unit kills are worth points too.
Who the heck would EVER do that lol. Omg that is just soooo bad. I mean, you can hide 3 ethereals in a Devilfish and get the bonus while giving them a 3+ jink, but still thats 3-5 VP just ASKING for anti tank weaponry to find them.
You do have access to 2x Shield drones per Ethereal, so that's a reasonable buffer, and you still get the FNP bonus from their mass invocation. You can even grab An'vu for the additional body guards and AP nerfing.
Still a huge risk, but there's a potential use to it as it's a high risk, high reward type of thing.
Im totally going to do a scenario-like battle where i have the Ethereal Council + Aun'Va. My goal: keep them alive. Enemy's goal: kill them (to hell with objectives, even if hes losing if the ethereals die i lose)
Actually sounds kinda fun. Sadly only race i can face at a huge point value is necrons lol not very fluffy of a battle to me.
Vineheart01 wrote: Any and all of these formations are their own formation. The Hunter Contingent is our way of merging them all into one big formation with formations inside the formation. The rules of that formation doesnt spread to others but the Hunter's rules will add to say the Stealth Cadre or Retal Cadre.
Also, who in their right flippin mind would EVER run the Ethereal Council except in fluff battles?
3-7 Ethereals, which can be Aun'Va or Aun'Shi as well. They form their OWN UNIT (remember, T3 no armor saves) and cannot be merged into other units. 24" LD10 bubble is nice and all 4 Elements invocations is also interesting but heres the kicker:
Thats 3-7 free VPs. It says absolutely nothing about only being worth 1 VP if the unit dies, so that means every single Ethereal is worth a VP then the whole unit is worth another if unit kills are worth points too.
Who the heck would EVER do that lol. Omg that is just soooo bad. I mean, you can hide 3 ethereals in a Devilfish and get the bonus while giving them a 3+ jink, but still thats 3-5 VP just ASKING for anti tank weaponry to find them.
Assuming O'vesa retains the IC rule, you can take a min Ethereal Council and slap O'vesa on to make it T6.
One of the silliest things is to have Aun'va and O'vesa together and have O'vesa tank everything. Combined with the T6, 2+ armor, 5/3+ invuln, 5+ FNP, and Aun'va's troll save of AP+, it is a strangely tough nut to crack if you can keep the positioning right.
The killing blow rule is useful against the opponent who likes running his wraithknight every game. Bonus, if farsight is in melee, he can reroll to wounds there too.
Vineheart01 wrote: Any and all of these formations are their own formation. The Hunter Contingent is our way of merging them all into one big formation with formations inside the formation. The rules of that formation doesnt spread to others but the Hunter's rules will add to say the Stealth Cadre or Retal Cadre.
Also, who in their right flippin mind would EVER run the Ethereal Council except in fluff battles?
3-7 Ethereals, which can be Aun'Va or Aun'Shi as well. They form their OWN UNIT (remember, T3 no armor saves) and cannot be merged into other units. 24" LD10 bubble is nice and all 4 Elements invocations is also interesting but heres the kicker:
Thats 3-7 free VPs. It says absolutely nothing about only being worth 1 VP if the unit dies, so that means every single Ethereal is worth a VP then the whole unit is worth another if unit kills are worth points too.
Who the heck would EVER do that lol. Omg that is just soooo bad. I mean, you can hide 3 ethereals in a Devilfish and get the bonus while giving them a 3+ jink, but still thats 3-5 VP just ASKING for anti tank weaponry to find them.
Assuming O'vesa retains the IC rule, you can take a min Ethereal Council and slap O'vesa on to make it T6.
One of the silliest things is to have Aun'va and O'vesa together and have O'vesa tank everything. Combined with the T6, 2+ armor, 5/3+ invuln, 5+ FNP, and Aun'va's troll save of AP+, it is a strangely tough nut to crack if you can keep the positioning right.
Unless they remove the Aun'Va and Shadowsun restriction (doubtful) you cant have Aun'va in your army since you have to have Farsight as your warlord to bring Ovesa.
assuming that doesnt change that is.
Vineheart01 wrote: Any and all of these formations are their own formation. The Hunter Contingent is our way of merging them all into one big formation with formations inside the formation. The rules of that formation doesnt spread to others but the Hunter's rules will add to say the Stealth Cadre or Retal Cadre.
Also, who in their right flippin mind would EVER run the Ethereal Council except in fluff battles?
3-7 Ethereals, which can be Aun'Va or Aun'Shi as well. They form their OWN UNIT (remember, T3 no armor saves) and cannot be merged into other units. 24" LD10 bubble is nice and all 4 Elements invocations is also interesting but heres the kicker:
Thats 3-7 free VPs. It says absolutely nothing about only being worth 1 VP if the unit dies, so that means every single Ethereal is worth a VP then the whole unit is worth another if unit kills are worth points too.
Who the heck would EVER do that lol. Omg that is just soooo bad. I mean, you can hide 3 ethereals in a Devilfish and get the bonus while giving them a 3+ jink, but still thats 3-5 VP just ASKING for anti tank weaponry to find them.
Assuming O'vesa retains the IC rule, you can take a min Ethereal Council and slap O'vesa on to make it T6.
One of the silliest things is to have Aun'va and O'vesa together and have O'vesa tank everything. Combined with the T6, 2+ armor, 5/3+ invuln, 5+ FNP, and Aun'va's troll save of AP+, it is a strangely tough nut to crack if you can keep the positioning right.
Unless they remove the Aun'Va and Shadowsun restriction (doubtful) you cant have Aun'va in your army since you have to have Farsight as your warlord to bring Ovesa.
assuming that doesnt change that is.
They've changed the wording for the current book, which was errated to detachment from army.
So long as it retains that wording, you can have both the Eight and Aun'va in the same army.
Formation? Did the eight change? It wasnt a formation it was just individual models you could get with Farsight as warlord. You dont have to buy all 8 of them (or at least you didnt)
Tbh i never paid attention to them. Saw them made a dream list trying to utilize them all (was like 7000pts lol), never looked at them again because i HATE FARSIGHT - too damn weak for being a lone wolf in our army. He wants melee, the entire codex does not.
Vineheart01 wrote: Formation? Did the eight change? It wasnt a formation it was just individual models you could get with Farsight as warlord. You dont have to buy all 8 of them (or at least you didnt)
Tbh i never paid attention to them. Saw them made a dream list trying to utilize them all (was like 7000pts lol), never looked at them again because i HATE FARSIGHT - too damn weak for being a lone wolf in our army. He wants melee, the entire codex does not.
Unfortunately he can't be attached to the Ghostkeel Wing, as that unit has a special rule that denies overwatch which they charge in, and they aren't that bad in CC.
Vineheart01 wrote: Formation? Did the eight change? It wasnt a formation it was just individual models you could get with Farsight as warlord. You dont have to buy all 8 of them (or at least you didnt)
Tbh i never paid attention to them. Saw them made a dream list trying to utilize them all (was like 7000pts lol), never looked at them again because i HATE FARSIGHT - too damn weak for being a lone wolf in our army. He wants melee, the entire codex does not.
Vineheart01 wrote: Formation? Did the eight change? It wasnt a formation it was just individual models you could get with Farsight as warlord. You dont have to buy all 8 of them (or at least you didnt)
Tbh i never paid attention to them. Saw them made a dream list trying to utilize them all (was like 7000pts lol), never looked at them again because i HATE FARSIGHT - too damn weak for being a lone wolf in our army. He wants melee, the entire codex does not.
Well, it's a formation now. World changed.
My only hope is that it doesn't require all the members and you can pick a smaller team.
My first impression of the new Mont'ka formations:
CounterStrike Cadre 1 Patherfinder, 3x strike/breach.
Devilfish get Fast on the first turn, So so, not that interesting but its a nice foundation for 3 teams + etheral fish of fury attack Re-roll within 3'' of an objectives. This is really nice for the pathfinders (re-roll markelights baby) and situational for the rest.
It's a decent formation but all things can be better taken elsewhere and markerlight (and pathfinders) are better taken from different formations.
Ranged Support Cadre 3x Pathfinder
3x Broadside team
Broadsides can use a markerlight from these pathfinders as 2 markerlight tokens.
Pathfinders get shrouded if not moving.
So this is one place where you're better of taking the pathfinders from. Shrouded is a huge buff. (park them in terrain or behind adl for 2+ cover save! suddenly they're survivable!)
Broadsides using tokens as 2... its good. even 3x4 man pathfinder squads generate effectively 12 markerlight tokens for the broadsides. The downside? Other units often benefit more from tokens than broadsides being already twin linked and (usually) only AP4, ignore cover is of limited benefit. It's still a pretty decent firebase and probably the real succesor to the old FBSC. You can't go wrong but.... not super amazing either.
Rapid insertion force 1 unit of stealth suits
3 units of crisis
1 riptide
No scatter DS withing 6'' of the stealth team. Twin-linked weapons on the turn they arrive.
It's rubbish. Retalation is MUCH better. Do you really want your riptide stuck in Reserves? No, no you don't. You don't get any re-roll or anything from this and people will either kill your stealth team or stay clear of it. Even if you DS with 6'' on turn 2 with everything, you're not really getting 1 turn of firepower out of twin-linked (What you miss from not being on the table turn one). You also don't get the choice to deploy them if you want to like in the retaliation squadron. Stay clear of this.
Piranha Firestream Wing. 4x 1 Piranah team
In shooting face, THE one piranha team you choose before game chooses 1 enemy unit with 36''+LOS. +1 BS and tank hunters vs this unit for the formation.
Interesting, so so.
Re-arm and refuel. If your piranha's are withing 6'' of the board edge at the end of the movement phase you may take them of and they will recycle with:
ALL the piranha's you originally bought
ALL new drones
ALL the seeker missiles.
WHAT?! Yeah this is OP. The only problem with the formation is the buy in both in money and points. You should take a bunch of piranaha's on every unit to avoid running around with 2 drones everywhere in kill point missions. The formation is extremely flexible. You can build a farm for the first couple of turns (and you can get your drones 18'' up the table). After that, you can farm more or use the firepower for a turn and STILL fire more. Must take in any tournament list. This is a bombshell formation. A+++.
Skysweep. 3x skyray, 1 devilfish.
You get 5+ cover save against flyers.
Skyrays within 12 '' of the devilfish can fire all remaining seekers.
5+ cover is good, kinda helps the no interceptor problem.
Firing all within 12'' of the fish.... WHAT DOES THIS DO?! You can already do this right? I assume it means even if you moved but it doesn't really give permission for this either.
The really good thing about this one: You can easily include skyrays (Something thats a hazzle for Kauyon).
Drone Net: 4x or more drone squadron.
If 2 or more on the table; +1 bs All get Jink(!) interceptor(!!), outflank, precision shots and Splitfire special rules.
So now we know why drones are suddenly so expensive! This is a good (Excellent) source of markerlights. You now don't really need a mark'o anymore.
Jink will make them more survivable as well. Intercepting markerlights... wel... 4x4 markerdrones, good buy, hard to go wrong here.
3x Riptide formations +1 bs if you shoot a unit already shot by another tide from this formation.
Meh, seems worse than Co-ordinated firepower
Networked reactors;Re-roll nova.
YES! This makes burst tides viable (again?) This is a good reason to take this formation. It also makes Ion-tides basically have a 3++ most of the time.
Riptide Hailfire: You can shoot twice one game turn
Yeah this sells the formation for me. Lets say your burst tide past the nova; fire 24 str 6 rending shots. Pew pew pew. (Buy FNP for this guy).
Dropping 2 Ion-accelarator pie plates. Yeah thats good to. I'm assuming you have to spend marker-lights seperatly for all attacks (you did bring all those BS3 markerdrones right?) but combine this with the skyray formation and holy what an alpha strike. And your extremely durable. People giving this formation for not being co-ordinated firepowered but...shooting twice is
Air Superiority Cadre 3x Razorshark fighter.
+1 BS skill vs anything that flies (Jet bikes, skimmers and anything with flyer rule).
D3 markerlight tokens if at least on is alive.
Enter automatically from reserves if enemy ''anything that flies'' (see above) is on the table.
They're still tau flyers but... Seems pretty good! Excellent chance of coming on automatically turn 2, free tokens and extra BS. It's not a great formation, but if you happen to have any tau flyers... this is a good way to field them.
Overall pretty good formations, definitely on par with the Kau'yon. It has the tools to be a tournament contender and you can handily avoid the Co-ordinated Firepower argument. Much easier access to markerlights as well, I'll be playing this next game And I guess I'll be buying Piranha's and one more Riptide.... WP GW....
Automatically Appended Next Post: A different questions, related to allies. For tournament goers only.
I feel currently Tau need a Culexus assassin to really compete in tournaments. And (s)he/it should be in a drop pod.
My reasoning is that if we can shoot it and kill it we have a chance to win any game. But there are things we can't kill because of Psychic powers.
My list of things i"m scared of:
-(jetbike) Seer Council
-Screamers with 2++
-Invisible marine deadstar on bikes.
-Cent Star
Tau have no Defense vs. this. Everyone's go-to psy defense is the culexus. To fit this in the easiest thing to do it (IMO.)
Culexus.
Librarian
Tac squad in pod.
Empty pod.
You can give the tacs some special weapons. Libby is cheapest. 2 pods gives you the choice to reserve the culexus if the enemy is also reserving/has out-deployed you. All seems pretty good right?
The problem is.
-Tau
-Allied Marines
-Assassin.
= 3x detachements. This means we can't take the new juicy tau formations like the 3x riptide or 3x ghostkeel; they are not in our ''decurion''.
How does everyone else deal with the above mentioned stars?
Nilok wrote:Assuming O'vesa retains the IC rule, you can take a min Ethereal Council and slap O'vesa on to make it T6.
No, it would remain at T3. Majority Toughness. Ethereal Council is 3-7, not 1-7.
Nilok wrote:My only hope is that it doesn't require all the members and you can pick a smaller team.
Can't. It's all of them or nothing. It was a bad move from GW.
Fruzzle wrote:CounterStrike Cadre 1 Patherfinder, 3x strike/breach.
Devilfish get Fast on the first turn, So so, not that interesting but its a nice foundation for 3 teams + etheral fish of fury attack Re-roll within 3'' of an objectives. This is really nice for the pathfinders (re-roll markelights baby) and situational for the rest.
It's a decent formation but all things can be better taken elsewhere and markerlight (and pathfinders) are better taken from different formations.
I really like this with Breachers. 10 of them firing at 5" at a Tervigon will kill it even with FnP (without MLs!), if my calculations are correct.
Or to clean Deep Strikers from your zone.
Fruzzle wrote:Ranged Support Cadre 3x Pathfinder
3x Broadside team
Broadsides can use a markerlight from these pathfinders as 2 markerlight tokens.
Pathfinders get shrouded if not moving.
So this is one place where you're better of taking the pathfinders from. Shrouded is a huge buff. (park them in terrain or behind adl for 2+ cover save! suddenly they're survivable!)
Broadsides using tokens as 2... its good. even 3x4 man pathfinder squads generate effectively 12 markerlight tokens for the broadsides. The downside? Other units often benefit more from tokens than broadsides being already twin linked and (usually) only AP4, ignore cover is of limited benefit. It's still a pretty decent firebase and probably the real succesor to the old FBSC. You can't go wrong but.... not super amazing either.
You forgot the Infiltrate Pathfinders get from this. Yep, best place to use them in a Dawn Blade Detachment. And I like accurate shots, so I'd use those many MLs for BS5 and Ignores Cover
Fruzzle wrote:Piranha Firestream Wing. 4x 1 Piranah team
In shooting face, THE one piranha team you choose before game chooses 1 enemy unit with 36''+LOS. +1 BS and tank hunters vs this unit for the formation.
Interesting, so so.
Re-arm and refuel. If your piranha's are withing 6'' of the board edge at the end of the movement phase you may take them of and they will recycle with:
ALL the piranha's you originally bought
ALL new drones
ALL the seeker missiles.
WHAT?! Yeah this is OP. The only problem with the formation is the buy in both in money and points. You should take a bunch of piranaha's on every unit to avoid running around with 2 drones everywhere in kill point missions. The formation is extremely flexible. You can build a farm for the first couple of turns (and you can get your drones 18'' up the table). After that, you can farm more or use the firepower for a turn and STILL fire more. Must take in any tournament list. This is a bombshell formation. A+++.
Drones from vehicles don't give KPs. And the drones wouldn't start that far - you can only disembark if you move 6", not combat speed. With Thrust they could go further, of course.
Fruzzle wrote:3x Riptide formations +1 bs if you shoot a unit already shot by another tide from this formation.
Meh, seems worse than Co-ordinated firepower
Networked reactors;Re-roll nova.
YES! This makes burst tides viable (again?) This is a good reason to take this formation. It also makes Ion-tides basically have a 3++ most of the time.
Riptide Hailfire: You can shoot twice one game turn
Yeah this sells the formation for me. Lets say your burst tide past the nova; fire 24 str 6 rending shots. Pew pew pew. (Buy FNP for this guy).
Dropping 2 Ion-accelarator pie plates. Yeah thats good to. I'm assuming you have to spend marker-lights seperatly for all attacks (you did bring all those BS3 markerdrones right?) but combine this with the skyray formation and holy what an alpha strike. And your extremely durable. People giving this formation for not being co-ordinated firepowered but...shooting twice is
You did forget that, once per game, they can fire their main weapon 2x and the secondary 4x (if you did choose to Ripple Fire at the start of the turn).
Fruzzle wrote: My first impression of the new Mont'ka formations:*Snip*
I feel currently Tau need a Culexus assassin to really compete in tournaments. And (s)he/it should be in a drop pod.
My reasoning is that if we can shoot it and kill it we have a chance to win any game. But there are things we can't kill because of Psychic powers.
My list of things i"m scared of:
-(jetbike) Seer Council
-Screamers with 2++
-Invisible marine deadstar on bikes.
-Cent Star
How about forcing through markerlights? Seems a bit more viable to mass them up now? Maybe?
Nilok wrote:Assuming O'vesa retains the IC rule, you can take a min Ethereal Council and slap O'vesa on to make it T6.
Fruzzle wrote:CounterStrike Cadre 1 Patherfinder, 3x strike/breach.
Devilfish get Fast on the first turn, So so, not that interesting but its a nice foundation for 3 teams + etheral fish of fury attack Re-roll within 3'' of an objectives. This is really nice for the pathfinders (re-roll markelights baby) and situational for the rest.
It's a decent formation but all things can be better taken elsewhere and markerlight (and pathfinders) are better taken from different formations.
I really like this with Breachers. 10 of them firing at 5" at a Tervigon will kill it even with FnP (without MLs!), if my calculations are correct.
Or to clean Deep Strikers from your zone.
Fruzzle wrote:Ranged Support Cadre 3x Pathfinder
3x Broadside team
Broadsides can use a markerlight from these pathfinders as 2 markerlight tokens.
Pathfinders get shrouded if not moving.
So this is one place where you're better of taking the pathfinders from. Shrouded is a huge buff. (park them in terrain or behind adl for 2+ cover save! suddenly they're survivable!)
Broadsides using tokens as 2... its good. even 3x4 man pathfinder squads generate effectively 12 markerlight tokens for the broadsides. The downside? Other units often benefit more from tokens than broadsides being already twin linked and (usually) only AP4, ignore cover is of limited benefit. It's still a pretty decent firebase and probably the real succesor to the old FBSC. You can't go wrong but.... not super amazing either.
You forgot the Infiltrate Pathfinders get from this. Yep, best place to use them in a Dawn Blade Detachment. And I like accurate shots, so I'd use those many MLs for BS5 and Ignores Cover
Drones from vehicles don't give KPs. And the drones wouldn't start that far - you can only disembark if you move 6", not combat speed. With Thrust they could go further, of course.
You did forget that, once per game, they can fire their main weapon 2x and the secondary 4x (if you did choose to Ripple Fire at the start of the turn).
Hehe I forgot those! The infiltrate makes that formation even better, and I also forgot the across the table overwatch! It is really an excellent formation which gets a little overshadowed by the Piranaha's. . And about the disembark. Yeah that Piranaha formation is going to be excellent. The beauty is your enemy can't even stop your farm unless he gets first turn.
The only weakeness? after turn 3/4 you're better of attacking I'm sure because the drones are going to be to slow to impact the game because of the distance they can travel.
But that's also fine! Spawn drones for 3 turns than do what piranaha's do! Score linebreaker, block movement and hose infantry. (And whoops sorry I melta's your tank (But probably drop pod).
Fruzzle wrote:
My first impression of the new Mont'ka formations:*Snip*
I feel currently Tau need a Culexus assassin to really compete in tournaments. And (s)he/it should be in a drop pod.
My reasoning is that if we can shoot it and kill it we have a chance to win any game. But there are things we can't kill because of Psychic powers.
My list of things i"m scared of:
-(jetbike) Seer Council
-Screamers with 2++
-Invisible marine deadstar on bikes.
-Cent Star
How about forcing through markerlights? Seems a bit more viable to mass them up now? Maybe?
Well against seer council without invis it's okay but with invis... even if you get 3/4 markerlights on them you still can't fire blast weapons (Ion Accelartor, pulse driver)
Against 2++ screamers... I really doesn't matter how much firepower you have. 1/36 WOUNDS causes a wound. 9 screamers have 18 wounds. If its firewarriors you need...
648 wound caused to kill a unit. If str 8 and above its half that nr. That's 1296 hits, The number might as well be infinite. Basically you can't (and shouldn't even try to) touch the unit as long as the buffs are up. (Interestingly, the stormsurge can tie it in combat pretty well, and with some lucky 6's, there are worse things you can do.
Cent star, bike star, same as seer council. Even if you get the markerlights we still can't fire our effective weapons (Ion accelerators and pulse drivers). (But the cent star is the most kill-able of them all, but also the most killy. I've sometimes won, sometimes lost vs them, always ended up ignoring as best as I can. But.... played with culexus pod once. Suddenly ridiculously easy.
Given that the hunter contingent is the "deathstars is deathtrap" detachment with combined fire (even against invis, you can force enough markers to get your entire army BS3,and twin link it with buffmander against a single target) I'd say they are less of a worry.
BoomWolf wrote: Given that the hunter contingent is the "deathstars is deathtrap" detachment with combined fire (even against invis, you can force enough markers to get your entire army BS3,and twin link it with buffmander against a single target) I'd say they are less of a worry.
And dawn blade is pretty much "punish the alpha".
Not saying I disagree with you but where are the markers coming from? And what would be effective firepower VS Chaptermaster, bike shield, fnp? Or Draigo?
Could you maybe post a list? I'd rather not use allies if I can get away with it. The Cux might be a crutch but omg was it effective!
Dawn Blade looks fun, though it's going to be tricky to have much room left after taking a Retribution Cadre core if I want to squeeze the majority of my stealth units into the list- Which I generally will, given more than half the Tau I own are stealth suits and ghostkeels.
Don't think I even -have- 2000 points of non-stealth stuff, in fact.
Nilok wrote:Assuming O'vesa retains the IC rule, you can take a min Ethereal Council and slap O'vesa on to make it T6.
Fruzzle wrote:CounterStrike Cadre 1 Patherfinder, 3x strike/breach.
Devilfish get Fast on the first turn, So so, not that interesting but its a nice foundation for 3 teams + etheral fish of fury attack Re-roll within 3'' of an objectives. This is really nice for the pathfinders (re-roll markelights baby) and situational for the rest.
It's a decent formation but all things can be better taken elsewhere and markerlight (and pathfinders) are better taken from different formations.
I really like this with Breachers. 10 of them firing at 5" at a Tervigon will kill it even with FnP (without MLs!), if my calculations are correct.
Or to clean Deep Strikers from your zone.
Fruzzle wrote:Ranged Support Cadre 3x Pathfinder
3x Broadside team
Broadsides can use a markerlight from these pathfinders as 2 markerlight tokens.
Pathfinders get shrouded if not moving.
So this is one place where you're better of taking the pathfinders from. Shrouded is a huge buff. (park them in terrain or behind adl for 2+ cover save! suddenly they're survivable!)
Broadsides using tokens as 2... its good. even 3x4 man pathfinder squads generate effectively 12 markerlight tokens for the broadsides. The downside? Other units often benefit more from tokens than broadsides being already twin linked and (usually) only AP4, ignore cover is of limited benefit. It's still a pretty decent firebase and probably the real succesor to the old FBSC. You can't go wrong but.... not super amazing either.
You forgot the Infiltrate Pathfinders get from this. Yep, best place to use them in a Dawn Blade Detachment. And I like accurate shots, so I'd use those many MLs for BS5 and Ignores Cover
Drones from vehicles don't give KPs. And the drones wouldn't start that far - you can only disembark if you move 6", not combat speed. With Thrust they could go further, of course.
You did forget that, once per game, they can fire their main weapon 2x and the secondary 4x (if you did choose to Ripple Fire at the start of the turn).
Hehe I forgot those! The infiltrate makes that formation even better, and I also forgot the across the table overwatch! It is really an excellent formation which gets a little overshadowed by the Piranaha's. . And about the disembark. Yeah that Piranaha formation is going to be excellent. The beauty is your enemy can't even stop your farm unless he gets first turn.
The only weakeness? after turn 3/4 you're better of attacking I'm sure because the drones are going to be to slow to impact the game because of the distance they can travel.
But that's also fine! Spawn drones for 3 turns than do what piranaha's do! Score linebreaker, block movement and hose infantry. (And whoops sorry I melta's your tank (But probably drop pod).
Fruzzle wrote:
My first impression of the new Mont'ka formations:*Snip*
I feel currently Tau need a Culexus assassin to really compete in tournaments. And (s)he/it should be in a drop pod.
My reasoning is that if we can shoot it and kill it we have a chance to win any game. But there are things we can't kill because of Psychic powers.
My list of things i"m scared of:
-(jetbike) Seer Council
-Screamers with 2++
-Invisible marine deadstar on bikes.
-Cent Star
How about forcing through markerlights? Seems a bit more viable to mass them up now? Maybe?
Well against seer council without invis it's okay but with invis... even if you get 3/4 markerlights on them you still can't fire blast weapons (Ion Accelartor, pulse driver)
Against 2++ screamers... I really doesn't matter how much firepower you have. 1/36 WOUNDS causes a wound. 9 screamers have 18 wounds. If its firewarriors you need...
648 wound caused to kill a unit. If str 8 and above its half that nr. That's 1296 hits, The number might as well be infinite. Basically you can't (and shouldn't even try to) touch the unit as long as the buffs are up. (Interestingly, the stormsurge can tie it in combat pretty well, and with some lucky 6's, there are worse things you can do.
Cent star, bike star, same as seer council. Even if you get the markerlights we still can't fire our effective weapons (Ion accelerators and pulse drivers). (But the cent star is the most kill-able of them all, but also the most killy. I've sometimes won, sometimes lost vs them, always ended up ignoring as best as I can. But.... played with culexus pod once. Suddenly ridiculously easy.
Depends on the rules locally where you play. If any of the places near you uses ITC rules, invisibility is already nerfed. (Blasts/templates can hit it, among other things)
They wouldnt be able to use seekers the same turn they leave the board because its the movement phase when they leave. However dont underestimate drone masses, they hurt.
3 units of 5 piranhas with no seekers is 600pts + 40pts for the boss one. Sound pricy, but every single turn they will spawn 3 units of 10 and a unit of 2 gun drones. Add in a couple commanders with DC and just jump to a stronger unit when its numbers get low. I do this with a single piranha squad and it does a ton of damage, imagine 3 of them let alone 3 of them each turn. By turn 3, one could assume 2 units of drones have died completely possibly 3 depending on what weapons/luck youre facing. You now have 6-7 units of 10 drones and 3 pairs of drones.
Heck, instead of a commander you could get the Drone Network formation. Now every single gun drone is BS3, even out of the formation. Adds a tax of ~224-672 depending on how many drones you want in the 4 units, but all you gotta do is keep 2 minimal squads hiding behind cover all game and you get the BS3 across the board.
Im never going to do it though because that is an asinine amount of drones to field lol. You're looking at around 140 drones to attempt this, and you might even break that number if your opponent cant mass murder them reliably.
But cant they launch the seekers on the turn 1, leave turn 2, come back later, repeat. If one of the drone formations units is all markers, group em with a drone controller, you can mark the hell out of everyone (split fire) and rain down seekers all day.
Not to mention that all of these "free" drones do not surrender VPs
Thats the beauty of the piranha drone squads to begin with. Which is why i do it even without the formation lol.
10 gun drones is deadly enough to require attention because they will hurt you if you dont. But they are 100% a waste of time objectively and are tough enough to either take a big gun or a good chunk of your shooting to remove. '
I'd say leave 1 squad of piranhas behind to fire seekers while the rest keep spawning drones. If they fire seekers then its 3 turns to fire again (one to fire, two to leave, three to return and fire again). The drone mass would be deadlier but i could see 10 seekers being a threat too - even without markerlights.
How difficult is it to wipe the entire squad from the board, to prevent respawning shenanigans?
I'm trying to justify the cost/benefits of a Drone Network formation alongside a Hunter Contingent, the drones buff the other drones (and themselves ofc), provide marker lights that the rest of the army can use with Coordinated fire. Hmm.. I ponder.
BS3+ missile drones are tempting. Native bonuses are just awesome.
Thats the thing. You cannot wipe them because they are never on the board except turn 1 which they are hiding behind terrain/sitting REALLY far away.
Piranhas doing the drone factory tactic will never ever be shot at. Its not a movement action to leave the board, its simply "if within 6" of a board edge at the end of the movement phase" so they can literally arrive, dump drones, and leave in the same phase. Even if you manage to pop a couple the first turn if the Tau player didnt go first, you wouldnt be able to remove all of them at that distance. Or even a majority of them.
The drone network can be really cheap to get the effect though. 224pts is the bare minimum price, and only 2 of the units need to be alive to get the board-wide bonus. Hide them in a building somewhere for eternity and let the other to go do things. I'd say its very worth it if youre already fielding several drones.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the thing. You cannot wipe them because they are never on the board except turn 1 which they are hiding behind terrain/sitting REALLY far away.
Piranhas doing the drone factory tactic will never ever be shot at. Its not a movement action to leave the board, its simply "if within 6" of a board edge at the end of the movement phase" so they can literally arrive, dump drones, and leave in the same phase. Even if you manage to pop a couple the first turn if the Tau player didnt go first, you wouldnt be able to remove all of them at that distance. Or even a majority of them..
Don't forget, your drone formation gets Jink, amongst we other things and is better than Pathfinders thanks to the +1 BS, +1 T, Relentless, JSJ, Jink Save, and more.
Heck, they give you a ton of Markers for Seekers and all you really need is one squad of Piranha as dedicated Seekers while the others produce drones.
Oh i just thought about something funny with the drone net.
They have interceptor, which largely wouldnt mean squat. However.....markerlights with interceptor anyone?
*evil laugh as he places a riptide piplate on a termie blob at BS5 w/ Ignore Cover*
Also apparently theres a huuuuge rule loophole in the piranha formation. "The unit returns at full strength" - RAI i would imagine they ignore any damage results and restore HP, but RAW that literally means any DEAD PIRANHAS as long as one in the unit was able to get off the board come back as well. Theres no way that was intended lol thats just beyond broken. They literally cannot die, and consistently spawn free drones.
The Drone Network is just insane to be honest, I'll probably be taking it in almost any list.
I'm guessing the ITC will do something like the Piranha formation only being able to do it once or twice in a game, since otherwise it's just utterly busted. Even being able to do it all of one time is rather huge since even with four minimum squads that's 160pts that generates 96pts for free, assuming you cost the drones at 12pts each, and they don't have Seekers.
Tinkrr wrote: The Drone Network is just insane to be honest, I'll probably be taking it in almost any list.
I'm guessing the ITC will do something like the Piranha formation only being able to do it once or twice in a game, since otherwise it's just utterly busted. Even being able to do it all of one time is rather huge since even with four minimum squads that's 160pts that generates 96pts for free, assuming you cost the drones at 12pts each, and they don't have Seekers.
Compare it against the facts. Consider alternatives? How does it stack up against scarab farms or daemon summoning.
Do either get banned or restricted heavily? Is it a widely playable strategy - I don't see many people fielding 20-30 drones easily.
As for the Drone Network, I'm struggling to fit it into a Hunter Cont. with 2 riptides, Ghostkeel, stormsurge + support 1500pt army (as in I can't). So I need to consider if it will good enough to remove whole units (doubtful) or perhaps field those units in the form of a CAD but loose the coordinated firepower rule. Like I said, fielding larger armies is too easy.
Tinkrr wrote: The Drone Network is just insane to be honest, I'll probably be taking it in almost any list.
I'm guessing the ITC will do something like the Piranha formation only being able to do it once or twice in a game, since otherwise it's just utterly busted. Even being able to do it all of one time is rather huge since even with four minimum squads that's 160pts that generates 96pts for free, assuming you cost the drones at 12pts each, and they don't have Seekers.
Compare it against the facts. Consider alternatives? How does it stack up against scarab farms or daemon summoning.
Do either get banned or restricted heavily? Is it a widely playable strategy - I don't see many people fielding 20-30 drones easily.
As for the Drone Network, I'm struggling to fit it into a Hunter Cont. with 2 riptides, Ghostkeel, stormsurge + support 1500pt army (as in I can't). So I need to consider if it will good enough to remove whole units (doubtful) or perhaps field those units in the form of a CAD but loose the coordinated firepower rule. Like I said, fielding larger armies is too easy.
With max squads it's 384 points of free drones a turn, assuming their 12 points, and not 14 points which is 448, I'd say that's a lot more free stuff per turn than Scarabs or Deamons. That's not counting free Seeker shenanigans either. Don't forget those drones are Jet Pack units, that pin, and all have BS3 with the Network in your army.
Don't we all have like a million drones laying around? Each box of Crisis Suits comes with like five, each Fire Warrior box has two, and the Piranhas start with two drones each that can deploy. With drones dying constantly you can easily keep those points cranking out, and let one unit be a Seeker unit that refreshes drones less often for more Seekers.
What are you Markerlight sources currently?
Edit: Also, how do you play the Hunter Contingent shared fire? Is it just Markerlight Sharing and +1BS or like all rules?
Actually i dont have that many drones lol. Extra anyway, i bring drones commonly spread out around my army.
I could probably dump drones twice, then im out of models lol. Theres also the bit about most of them being busted up since they just sat around for years lol
So...hypothetically, I am looking at what sort of battle suit army could I build for about 1850-2000 pts? I have an idea for a Zeon army. I like the looks of the Retaliation Cadre with the FSE detachment. One caveat is I want to use Farsight.
Basically, can anyone help me build a shopping list?
Kinda hard to figure that out until we get our hands on the new book instead of just formation leaks. The actual codex doesnt allow Farsight in any formation, so you'd have to take a minimal CAD to use him which would force some firewarrior squads.
Ghostkeels i think would be more of "i want the new toy" for you if you want the Farsight route, since he doesnt have access to the Optimized Stealth Cadre and theyre only ~30pts cheaper than a Riptide once you give them stims and not as deadly on their own. However you definitely want a ton of crisis suits lol. A crisis suit with 2 15pt guns and shields is 77pts, or 57pts with a 5pt support item instead of shields so work with that to figure out how many you will want/need. Riptides are 190-225 depending on if you give them stims or not, ghosts not far behind.
Im not one for solid suit lists though, so im not sure what nonsuits stuff you'd have to bring no matter what. I tend to bring more firewarrior/armor based tactics with my suits being the clutch players not the main force.
Vineheart01 wrote: Kinda hard to figure that out until we get our hands on the new book instead of just formation leaks. The actual codex doesnt allow Farsight in any formation, so you'd have to take a minimal CAD to use him which would force some firewarrior squads.
Ghostkeels i think would be more of "i want the new toy" for you if you want the Farsight route, since he doesnt have access to the Optimized Stealth Cadre and theyre only ~30pts cheaper than a Riptide once you give them stims and not as deadly on their own. However you definitely want a ton of crisis suits lol. A crisis suit with 2 15pt guns and shields is 77pts, or 57pts with a 5pt support item instead of shields so work with that to figure out how many you will want/need. Riptides are 190-225 depending on if you give them stims or not, ghosts not far behind.
Im not one for solid suit lists though, so im not sure what nonsuits stuff you'd have to bring no matter what. I tend to bring more firewarrior/armor based tactics with my suits being the clutch players not the main force.
I like the appearance of the Ghostkeel, but they really don't factor into the army I am dreaming of. And since I don't own any Tau in the first place, EVERYTHING is a new toy to me . This would be for months down the road.
After glancing over the FormationsI think I found an effective way to utilize the "Counterstrike Cadre's" Pathfinder and Devilfish tax.
-Take a bare minimum Pathfinders squad and give them a Recon Drone. This effectively gives their Devilfish a Homing Beacon.
-Have them gun it up the table with the other three Devilfish carrying Breachers or Strikers. Maneuver their Devilfish to get it into the optimum position for Deep Strikers.
-Take the Retaliation Cadre and use the Pathfinders Devilfish with its six inch no scatter bubble measured from its hull.
This combined with your three squads of Fire Warriors or Breachers disembarking from their Devilfish gives you a very nasty turn two alpha strike.
gmaleron wrote: After glancing over the FormationsI think I found an effective way to utilize the "Counterstrike Cadre's" Pathfinder and Devilfish tax.
-Take a bare minimum Pathfinders squad and give them a Recon Drone. This effectively gives their Devilfish a Homing Beacon.
-Have them gun it up the table with the other three Devilfish carrying Breachers or Strikers. Maneuver their Devilfish to get it into the optimum position for Deep Strikers.
-Take the Retaliation Cadre and use the Pathfinders Devilfish with its six inch no scatter bubble measured from its hull.
This combined with your three squads of Fire Warriors or Breachers disembarking from their Devilfish gives you a very nasty turn two alpha strike.
If its second turn, shouldn't it be called Beta strike?
bleak wrote: If its second turn, shouldn't it be called Beta strike?
Touche!!
Also looking through the new released Mont'Ka Formations I am actually now somewhat interested in the "Air Superiority Cadre". Granted I know almost everyone thinks that the Tau Fighters are garbage but looking at what they bring to the table:
-They get +1 BS when shooting at All kinds of Flyers, All kinds of Flying Monstrous Creatures, Skimmers & Jetbikes
-D3 free Markerlights onto any target on the battlefield
-Automatically come in from Reserve if any all kinds of Flyers, All kinds of Flying Monstrous Creatures, Skimmers & Jetbikes are on the table.
Taking that into account I really could see me picking up x3 of these bad boys and kitting them out with Nose Missile Pods giving me x6 S7 AP4 Shots (or x2 S7 AP4 shots and a single S8 AP4 Large Blast) and x2 Seeker Missiles each. Not to shabby, especially with the boosted BS against certain targets.
Are Crisis loadouts pretty much the same as they were before? Either double Fusion /w Target Locks, double Plasma, or double Missile Pods /w Target Locks?
I plan on running suit heavy lists. Maybe 3 double Fusions, 3 double Plasmas, and 3 double Missile Pods? Should cover anything I'll need?
It should also be noted that the retaliation cadre is considered a core choice in the new detachment, allowing you to forego the need for the hunter cadre.
Noctem wrote: Are Crisis loadouts pretty much the same as they were before? Either double Fusion /w Target Locks, double Plasma, or double Missile Pods /w Target Locks?
I plan on running suit heavy lists. Maybe 3 double Fusions, 3 double Plasmas, and 3 double Missile Pods? Should cover anything I'll need?
3 double AFP for hordes. If you plan on DSing the MPs, maybe CIBs would be a better deal
chalkobob wrote: It should also be noted that the retaliation cadre is considered a core choice in the new detachment, allowing you to forego the need for the hunter cadre.
Yeah. And the fact there is a Retaliation Cadre boxed set coming out that is roughly 20% off sticker price is making my desire to get a Tau army going VERY hard to put down.
chalkobob wrote: It should also be noted that the retaliation cadre is considered a core choice in the new detachment, allowing you to forego the need for the hunter cadre.
Yeah. And the fact there is a Retaliation Cadre boxed set coming out that is roughly 20% off sticker price is making my desire to get a Tau army going VERY hard to put down.
Any confirmation or link about that? If that's the case then im going to have to start saving up!
chalkobob wrote: It should also be noted that the retaliation cadre is considered a core choice in the new detachment, allowing you to forego the need for the hunter cadre.
Yeah. And the fact there is a Retaliation Cadre boxed set coming out that is roughly 20% off sticker price is making my desire to get a Tau army going VERY hard to put down.
Any confirmation or link about that? If that's the case then im going to have to start saving up!
Just some WD scans on BOLS. $215 gets you a Commander, a set of Crisis Suits, a Broadside, and a Riptide.
chalkobob wrote: It should also be noted that the retaliation cadre is considered a core choice in the new detachment, allowing you to forego the need for the hunter cadre.
Which actually makes it cheaper to field, since it doesnt require basically 1 of everything to bring it and still get the universal super formation rules like the Hunter Contingent does. Retaliation Cadre easily rockets past 800pts for me and thats with minimal crisis teams. I dont see how anyone can field more than just that if they want it in a 2k or less game. Rest of my army is always dedicated to marker support, screening rolls, and objectives leaving me with around 300pts of additional power units. I havnt used it in the Hunter Contingent yet because the requirement of the Core pushes me too far.
Also, $215 for all that? I cant believe that....thats a $55 discount which is unheard of for GW.
Posted this in the news & rumors thread for Mont'ka, reposting it over here to get all your opinions on it.
Well, assuming there isn't some special rule or formation that we haven't seen yet, the Dawnblade contingent certainly seems a lot more toned down/nicer/weaker than the Hunter contingent. Coordinated Firepower is pretty much the source of all the complaints about new Tau being OP (from what I've seen/heard), and without it Tau are kinda back to their old place in 7th at the middle, maybe upper middle of the pack. The Killing Blow rule is good, rerolling to wound and to pen is always nice, but it is limited and in no way as powerful as the other Decurion rules we've seen thus far. The auxiliary formations are fairly toned down too from what I can see. Yeah the two Wing formations are pretty gross, but they aren't in either of the contingents from what we've seen, so can get the benefits of coordinated firepower or killing blow. I predict they'll show up in tournaments of course, and likely in more than just Tau armies, but its too early to tell that.
The interesting and tricky thing is how I'm going to build a Dawnblade list. Normally in a Decurion list, your core formation is the rock of your army, the base of it while the auxiliary formations are your hammer, your killers. Dawnblade kinda reverses that, at least with Retaliation. Your core formation is now the hammer, DSing that many battlesuits turn 2. Very powerful and scary beta strike. But that means that whatever auxiliary formations you take have to be able to hold the board and survive until the suits come in. So the question is, what do you take with the Retaliation Cadre? (Not gonna talk about the Hunter Cadre right now, as taking that basically means you're just taking a neutered Hunter Contingent. Besides, we play FSE for the suits).
The Drone network seems like an auto take for me. Arguably the best source of MLs Tau has ever had, in my eyes. 4 units of Marker Drones at BS3 that have Jink, Interceptor, and Split Fire? And the BS3 extends to every Drone in your army. Oh man I'm in love. 4 units of 5 Marker Drones is what I'm thinking atm. BS3 means that on average I get 10 MLs a turn (divided up amongst potentially 5 targets). On a perfect turn (all hit and all split fire tests passed) I get 4 MLs on 5 different units in one shooting phase. Plus they can intercept, which means that my Riptides and Broadsides now have ML support for intercepting, albeit at BS2. Still more than they had before. Plus with jinking, the Drones got a lot more survivable, unless my opponent has copious amounts of AP4 and ignore cover (funny enough, Tau basically). All that for 280 points? Sign me up.
But, 4 units of Drones cannot hold out for long against an entire army for a whole turn, and will not be able to control the board and still live long enough to provide ML support, so we need another auxiliary. Right now I'm thinking about the Sky Ray formation. Even if the formation rules are either pointless or situational, Sky Rays are by themselves awesome. 18 Seeker Missiles minimum on BS4 platforms is nothing to sneeze at. Plus networked MLs mean that they don't need to rely on the Drones for support, and can assist the Drones with supporting the suits once the Missiles are spent. Plus 13/12/10 tanks with a 3+ jink save and move through cover (my go to upgrades for all Tau vehicles) definitely will have the staying power the list needs.
What's the rest of dakka thinking here? How're you guys planning on building a Dawnblade with what we've seen so far? Critiques of my analysis/potential list?
I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
I think people are over exaggerating the riptide wing.
Yes it is good, but there are limitations:
1.) BS buffing is much worse than in Hunter Contingent. In riptide wing if all 3 shoot at the same target; 1 get BS3 and the other 2 get BS4. In hunter Contingent, all 3 get BS 5 (fire team and coordinated Firepower).
2.) Rerolling nova reactor is amazing yes. But it also forces them to remain within 6" of each other, severely limiting board control as that is a big portion of your army
3.) 1 round of double firing is great. The main problem is not being able to move OR Jetpack move that turn. If you want to be able to use your secondary weapons for the quad ripple effect, your 3 riptides are going to have to be within 18" of the enemy for an entire turn BEFORE being able to double tap. And anything not killed will most certainly be in CC with your Riptides that turn after firing as well.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
I think people are over exaggerating the riptide wing.
Yes it is good, but there are limitations:
1.) BS buffing is much worse than in Hunter Contingent. In riptide wing if all 3 shoot at the same target; 1 get BS3 and the other 2 get BS4. In hunter Contingent, all 3 get BS 5 (fire team and coordinated Firepower).
2.) Rerolling nova reactor is amazing yes. But it also forces them to remain within 6" of each other, severely limiting board control as that is a big portion of your army
3.) 1 round of double firing is great. The main problem is not being able to move OR Jetpack move that turn. If you want to be able to use your secondary weapons for the quad ripple effect, your 3 riptides are going to have to be within 18" of the enemy for an entire turn BEFORE being able to double tap. And anything not killed will most certainly be in CC with your Riptides that turn after firing as well.
Yes however:
You could just take nine Riptides in the formation, add a drone network full of markers and call it a bound list.
BS buffing isnt as powerful in the Riptide Wing yeah, but its never been as amazing with blast wepaons anyway.
6" from each other is pretty damn wide, remember their bases are huge. Thats a ~15" stretch they can sit in and still be within 6" of the one in the center because of their base sizes.
The once per game doubleshooting is amazing. Assuming you dont flop with Gets Hot, thats 6 S8/9 AP2 pi plates at table range. Moving means nothing when youre in the back corner of the board anyway. And each blast is an individual attack, so you dont even have to doubleup and waste one because the first did good enough.
However its expensive. You want a Retal Cadre, Riptide Wing, and a drone net? Retal Cadre is ~800pts and can easily sky rocket beyond that, Riptide wing is ~700pts if you give them all Stims, and Drone Net is bare minimum 224pts which is 4 squads of 4 drones. You lose the army wide bonus if 3 of those squads die, so you kinda have to keep two of them in the backfield to keep them alive.
Even with that and nothing else, youre lookin at 1724. While you can do it in a 1850pt game it wouldnt be in the Dawn Blade Contingent because theres no way you can still get Farsight + a Bodyguard in there
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
I think people are over exaggerating the riptide wing.
Yes it is good, but there are limitations:
1.) BS buffing is much worse than in Hunter Contingent. In riptide wing if all 3 shoot at the same target; 1 get BS3 and the other 2 get BS4. In hunter Contingent, all 3 get BS 5 (fire team and coordinated Firepower).
2.) Rerolling nova reactor is amazing yes. But it also forces them to remain within 6" of each other, severely limiting board control as that is a big portion of your army
3.) 1 round of double firing is great. The main problem is not being able to move OR Jetpack move that turn. If you want to be able to use your secondary weapons for the quad ripple effect, your 3 riptides are going to have to be within 18" of the enemy for an entire turn BEFORE being able to double tap. And anything not killed will most certainly be in CC with your Riptides that turn after firing as well.
Why not use SMS and remain stationary at 30 inches turn 1? Now you're shooting either 8 sms or 16 at 30 inches with this rule. I would also like to point out that we're talking about ways to use the Dawn Blade detachment, not the Hunter Contingent. I would also like to point out that in order for a squad of Riptides to get bs 5 there must be three in the same squad and then must be shooting with two other units. Who would dedicated that many points into one unit? To mitigate the lack of fireteam and coordinated firepower bonuses you could simoly use the Drone formation for a couple squads of bs 3 drones to help land that alpha strike.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
I think people are over exaggerating the riptide wing.
Yes it is good, but there are limitations:
1.) BS buffing is much worse than in Hunter Contingent. In riptide wing if all 3 shoot at the same target; 1 get BS3 and the other 2 get BS4. In hunter Contingent, all 3 get BS 5 (fire team and coordinated Firepower).
2.) Rerolling nova reactor is amazing yes. But it also forces them to remain within 6" of each other, severely limiting board control as that is a big portion of your army
3.) 1 round of double firing is great. The main problem is not being able to move OR Jetpack move that turn. If you want to be able to use your secondary weapons for the quad ripple effect, your 3 riptides are going to have to be within 18" of the enemy for an entire turn BEFORE being able to double tap. And anything not killed will most certainly be in CC with your Riptides that turn after firing as well.
Why not use SMS and remain stationary at 30 inches turn 1? Now you're shooting either 8 sms or 16 at 30 inches with this rule. I would also like to point out that we're talking about ways to use the Dawn Blade detachment, not the Hunter Contingent. I would also like to point out that in order for a squad of Riptides to get bs 5 there must be three in the same squad and then must be shooting with two other units. Who would dedicated that many points into one unit? To mitigate the lack of fireteam and coordinated firepower bonuses you could simoly use the Drone formation for a couple squads of bs 3 drones to help land that alpha strike.
Nope for the riptides to get bs 5 they can be 3 separate squads of 1 model each. If all three combine fire they get +1 from coordinated firepower and another +1 for fire team since there are 3 MC firing as if the same unit and at least one has the fire team special rule
And i understand you were talking about dawn blade. I was merely stating comparing riptide wing to using riptides in hunter contingent.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
I think people are over exaggerating the riptide wing.
Yes it is good, but there are limitations:
1.) BS buffing is much worse than in Hunter Contingent. In riptide wing if all 3 shoot at the same target; 1 get BS3 and the other 2 get BS4. In hunter Contingent, all 3 get BS 5 (fire team and coordinated Firepower).
2.) Rerolling nova reactor is amazing yes. But it also forces them to remain within 6" of each other, severely limiting board control as that is a big portion of your army
3.) 1 round of double firing is great. The main problem is not being able to move OR Jetpack move that turn. If you want to be able to use your secondary weapons for the quad ripple effect, your 3 riptides are going to have to be within 18" of the enemy for an entire turn BEFORE being able to double tap. And anything not killed will most certainly be in CC with your Riptides that turn after firing as well.
Why not use SMS and remain stationary at 30 inches turn 1? Now you're shooting either 8 sms or 16 at 30 inches with this rule. I would also like to point out that we're talking about ways to use the Dawn Blade detachment, not the Hunter Contingent. I would also like to point out that in order for a squad of Riptides to get bs 5 there must be three in the same squad and then must be shooting with two other units. Who would dedicated that many points into one unit? To mitigate the lack of fireteam and coordinated firepower bonuses you could simoly use the Drone formation for a couple squads of bs 3 drones to help land that alpha strike.
Nope for the riptides to get bs 5 they can be 3 separate squads of 1 model each. If all three combine fire they get +1 from coordinated firepower and another +1 for fire team since there are 3 MC firing as if the same unit and at least one has the fire team special rule
And i understand you were talking about dawn blade. I was merely stating comparing riptide wing to using riptides in hunter contingent.
Ok, but then you still need THREE Riptides to fire at the same unit to get BS 5. The Riptide Wing allows the allocation of your sources at multiple targets in the same shooting phase. Flood the board with little Marker Drones and you can help boost the damage potential of the Riptide Wing's alpha strike.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the Riptide Wing could potentially be the scariest formation we could muster. A core eith the retaliation cadre, riptide wing, and drones for markerlight support could offer devastating alpha and beta strikes.
I think people are over exaggerating the riptide wing.
Yes it is good, but there are limitations:
1.) BS buffing is much worse than in Hunter Contingent. In riptide wing if all 3 shoot at the same target; 1 get BS3 and the other 2 get BS4. In hunter Contingent, all 3 get BS 5 (fire team and coordinated Firepower).
2.) Rerolling nova reactor is amazing yes. But it also forces them to remain within 6" of each other, severely limiting board control as that is a big portion of your army
3.) 1 round of double firing is great. The main problem is not being able to move OR Jetpack move that turn. If you want to be able to use your secondary weapons for the quad ripple effect, your 3 riptides are going to have to be within 18" of the enemy for an entire turn BEFORE being able to double tap. And anything not killed will most certainly be in CC with your Riptides that turn after firing as well.
Why not use SMS and remain stationary at 30 inches turn 1? Now you're shooting either 8 sms or 16 at 30 inches with this rule. I would also like to point out that we're talking about ways to use the Dawn Blade detachment, not the Hunter Contingent. I would also like to point out that in order for a squad of Riptides to get bs 5 there must be three in the same squad and then must be shooting with two other units. Who would dedicated that many points into one unit? To mitigate the lack of fireteam and coordinated firepower bonuses you could simoly use the Drone formation for a couple squads of bs 3 drones to help land that alpha strike.
Nope for the riptides to get bs 5 they can be 3 separate squads of 1 model each. If all three combine fire they get +1 from coordinated firepower and another +1 for fire team since there are 3 MC firing as if the same unit and at least one has the fire team special rule
And i understand you were talking about dawn blade. I was merely stating comparing riptide wing to using riptides in hunter contingent.
Ok, but then you still need THREE Riptides to fire at the same unit to get BS 5. The Riptide Wing allows the allocation of your sources at multiple targets in the same shooting phase. Flood the board with little Marker Drones and you can help boost the damage potential of the Riptide Wing's alpha strike.
You can just as easily shoot the riptides at different targets in the hunter contingent as well. They would all be BS3 as normal. And so would all the riptides in a riptide wing if they shot at different targets. I was comparing the first rule of riptide wing vs riptides in HC
Vineheart01 wrote: Retal Cadre is ~800pts and can easily sky rocket beyond that
The retaliation cadre I take is under 700 points. I take 3 units of a single crisis suits (with dual fusion) and 1 unit of a single missile side with EWO. You don't have to max out the units.
@DirtyDeeds that literally removes the point of both formations lol. They could always act independently with marker support, the formations are suppose to let them hit harder if they focus fire but they dont have to.
And i dont max the units out either, though i buy shield gens (in retal cadre). Maxing them out would be above 2k points alone lol, before buying any drones.
Vineheart01 wrote: @DirtyDeeds that literally removes the point of both formations lol. They could always act independently with marker support, the formations are suppose to let them hit harder if they focus fire but they dont have to.
And i dont max the units out either, though i buy shield gens (in retal cadre). Maxing them out would be above 2k points alone lol, before buying any drones.
The point I'm trying to get at is this formation has incredible damage potential. It allows a minimum of three Riptides yo have two shooting phases in one turn. Depending on the configuration, 6 pie plates, or 72 str 6 rending shots in one turn. Holy sh*t.
Quite frankly i think i'd want burst cannons in that formation because the main problem with bursttides isnt the damage, its passing that nova test. Finding a way to give them twinlink, reroll 1s, or bonus to hit in general isnt the biggest problem.
The Brusttide to me does a lot more damage IF he passes the nova test. If he doesnt, hes basically lost his shooting because now hes only good at shooting at troops or AV10/11.
Vineheart01 wrote: @DirtyDeeds that literally removes the point of both formations lol. They could always act independently with marker support, the formations are suppose to let them hit harder if they focus fire but they dont have to.
And i dont max the units out either, though i buy shield gens (in retal cadre). Maxing them out would be above 2k points alone lol, before buying any drones.
The point I'm trying to get at is this formation has incredible damage potential. It allows a minimum of three Riptides yo have two shooting phases in one turn. Depending on the configuration, 6 pie plates, or 72 str 6 rending shots in one turn. Holy sh*t.
And i agree its awesome! But you have to compare the potential of 3 riptides in that formation to being in a hunter contingent/hunter cadre. You lose a lot of army synergy.
No 12" supporting fire
No combine fire (so not bonus BS, not sharing marker lights, and, depending on how you play, no special rule sharing)
No free running before firing
All 3 can be spread out on the board
vs
Reroll nova reactor
Have to stay within 6" of each other
Weaker version of BS buffing
Double fire one round, but cannot move or jetpack move
notredameguy10 is right, it says "one after another" well you cant trigger the other if you cant do the one. However, one could argue this formation offsets interceptor damage because one round of interceptor means 1 less round of shooting phase, but this rule gives you a double shooting phase in a separate turn. So its still powerful with EWO just not the same exact turn.
Its unfortunately the same thing for the stormsurge, which makes me not like using EWO on it.
So if you take a Retaliation Cadre, and then take a regular Cad, and that Cad has a Commander, can you join him to a Retaliation Cadre Crisis Suit team during deployment, or are they unable to do so? If you can what happens if you use the low orbit deployment?
Tinkrr wrote: So if you take a Retaliation Cadre, and then take a regular Cad, and that Cad has a Commander, can you join him to a Retaliation Cadre Crisis Suit team during deployment, or are they unable to do so? If you can what happens if you use the low orbit deployment?
This is still up for debate from what I've seen. The question is basically does joining an IC to a unit within a formation allow him access to the formation special rules. To the best of my knowledge the answer is no (of course, I've never really had to deal with this question, so maybe I'm wrong). I would argue that because low altitude deployment is a special rule specific to the retaliation cadre formation, and specifies units from the formation, you cannot attach a commander from outside the formation and have him get the benefit. But that's just my personal interpretation, I haven't seen/kept up with any debates on YMDC about this particular point, so maybe I'm completely wrong.
Is he the same faction or battle brothers? Yes Is the formation or some other rule specifically preventing an IC from joining? No Can both the IC and the unit deploy in the same manner? Yes
I see no reason why he cant join. The formation doesnt prevent outside ICs from joining the units at any point, and ICs that have the same deployment rule as a unit can deploy with them (paraphrased rather than spout out like 15 damn pages to say that lol)
In fact, i thought about this after my game Saturday with the Retaliation Cadre - Broadsides deepstrike in that formation right? Shadowsun deepstrikes. She can now join a squad of broadsides and deepstrike with them, conferring stealth + shroud. The infiltration thing is thrown out the window because designating deepstrikers happens separately.
However, the IC wouldnt gain any rules from the formation unless it specifies the "unit" gets the perk. So the IC would get +1BS on arrival but not Relentless (big deal lol). Remember ICs attached to a unit count as part of that unit for ALL rules and purposes, the formation has to specify models for the IC to not benefit from the formation.
See, that's what's weird about it, I can see it going both ways. Not because I really care about the +1BS, but because I want to have two commanders (One being Buff, and one being Tank) to join with two larger units of Crisis Suits, one that runs Missiles and one that runs Plasma.
The reason I can see it going either way is because Shadowsun can't normally deploy with a Crisis Unit, due to have Infiltrator, but can Deep Strike with Crisis Suits as a body guard. The difference isn't massive, but if you're trying to use her to buff your Suits with her ninja skills, you don't want the potential first turn of having them shot to pieces if they deploy on the table instead of Deep Striking.
Really, it's not a big deal as I could slot a Commander in the Cad and make the Missile squad part of that Cad, that way they can deploy on the table, while the Plasmas deep strike, but I'd be taxed one Suit with meltas or something in the Retaliation Cadre. Maybe that's better anyway if I'm running Mont'ka over Hunter, since then I can get Skyrays and stuff.
Is he the same faction or battle brothers? Yes
Is the formation or some other rule specifically preventing an IC from joining? No
Can both the IC and the unit deploy in the same manner? Yes
I see no reason why he cant join. The formation doesnt prevent outside ICs from joining the units at any point, and ICs that have the same deployment rule as a unit can deploy with them (paraphrased rather than spout out like 15 damn pages to say that lol)
In fact, i thought about this after my game Saturday with the Retaliation Cadre - Broadsides deepstrike in that formation right? Shadowsun deepstrikes. She can now join a squad of broadsides and deepstrike with them, conferring stealth + shroud. The infiltration thing is thrown out the window because designating deepstrikers happens separately.
However, the IC wouldnt gain any rules from the formation unless it specifies the "unit" gets the perk. So the IC would get +1BS on arrival but not Relentless (big deal lol). Remember ICs attached to a unit count as part of that unit for ALL rules and purposes, the formation has to specify models for the IC to not benefit from the formation.
And since i had a hunch i looked up the IC rules and Formations in the big book. Neither mention ICs/Formations combining together at all. So it is literally only preventing an IC from joining if the IC cannot deploy with them (they infiltrate he doesnt, or he cant deepstrike but they do yaddayadda) or if some special rule straight up prevents it (like Commander R'alai since he cant join a unit period)
Vineheart01 wrote: And since i had a hunch i looked up the IC rules and Formations in the big book. Neither mention ICs/Formations combining together at all. So it is literally only preventing an IC from joining if the IC cannot deploy with them (they infiltrate he doesnt, or he cant deepstrike but they do yaddayadda) or if some special rule straight up prevents it (like Commander R'alai since he cant join a unit period)
Just to be clear, shadowsun can join a squad that does not have the infiltrate rule, she just cannot be "infiltrating" unless both her and the squad she joins has the rule. This was in the brbfaq for reference and it clearly is written as the verb.
I had to look into this because I am a Shrike fan, and he already had a hard enough time. If it wasn't the verb and was the straight rule, Shrike literally would not be able to join any units because of his "can only join a jump pack squad before deployment" rule.
Right, but that was the whole point of having her attach to a deepstriking unit. Far as i know you cant deploy normally if you have infiltrate, you can only infiltrate outflank or deepstrike if its available. So she has no viable options to give our heavy hitters some insane cover protection.
Enter Retal Cadre:
Now they deepstrike AND have relentless. Makes even more sense to try and squeeze her in there. Though admittedly its very difficult to deepstrike a full broadside team - i found that out earlier lol. I didnt mishap but if i scattered 1 more inch i would have (3 inches was my limit lol but i was smack dab in the middle of multiple units)
So, I have a first draft list for Dawnblade I want to run by you guys here (not sure if I should post it here or in army lists considering the book isn't released yet. If this is the wrong place let me know and I'll move it!) Note that this isn't a tournament list, just meant to be a fairly fun list that is still good and can win games.
Dawnblade Contingent, 1848/1850
Retaliation Cadre: Core
Crisis Suit Commander - 2 MPs, Shield Gen, Stim
Crisis Team - x3 2 FB each, 2 TLs Crisis Team - x3 2 PR each
Crisis Team - x3 2 MP each
Vineheart01 wrote: However its expensive. You want a Retal Cadre, Riptide Wing, and a drone net? Retal Cadre is ~800pts and can easily sky rocket beyond that, Riptide wing is ~700pts if you give them all Stims, and Drone Net is bare minimum 224pts which is 4 squads of 4 drones. You lose the army wide bonus if 3 of those squads die, so you kinda have to keep two of them in the backfield to keep them alive.
Even with that and nothing else, youre lookin at 1724. While you can do it in a 1850pt game it wouldnt be in the Dawn Blade Contingent because theres no way you can still get Farsight + a Bodyguard in there
The Command Portion for the Dawnblade Contingent is listed as 0-1 per Core Choice so the Farsight Tax isnt an issue because it doesnt have to be taken.
I mentioned this earlier but what about taking the Counterstrike Cadre? x3 Devilfish with Breachers and a Devilfish with Pathfinders would not be super easy to eliminate in a turn. On top of it if the Pathfinders take a Recon Drone it gives their Devilfish a Homing Beacon and a 6 inch bubble around it for no scattering Deep Strikers, really useful when combined with the Retaliation Cadre.
Also I dont think the Riptide Wing is part of the Dawnblade Contingent meaning it is probably meant for the Tau forces outside the Enclaves. Not saying we cant take it but we would have to take something else in order to field it with our FSE forces.
Grizzyzz wrote:Just to be clear, shadowsun can join a squad that does not have the infiltrate rule, she just cannot be "infiltrating" unless both her and the squad she joins has the rule. This was in the brbfaq for reference and it clearly is written as the verb.
No, she can't. The newest FAQ tell us ICs with Infiltrate cannot join units without Infiltrate, and vice versa (the vice versa isn't in the BRB books). So, the only way to bring Shadowsun is with Stealth Suits or Kroot; Vespids, if you use Allied Advance Cadre; Pathfinders, if you use Ranged Support Cadre.
No, she can't. The newest FAQ tell us ICs with Infiltrate cannot join units without Infiltrate, and vice versa (the vice versa isn't in the BRB books). So, the only way to bring Shadowsun is with Stealth Suits or Kroot; Vespids, if you use Allied Advance Cadre; Pathfinders, if you use Ranged Support Cadre.
The FAQ states "an IC without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of 'infiltrators' during deployment and vice versa"
It's very clear they are nerfing infiltrate bombs. As stating "infiltrators" aka units in the act of infiltrating. SS can join crisis suits... Start on the table, outflank, deepstrike, but cannot infiltrate with them.
Likewise stealthsuits cannot be joined with a commander and infiltrate, but may deploy any other way.
No, she can't. The newest FAQ tell us ICs with Infiltrate cannot join units without Infiltrate, and vice versa (the vice versa isn't in the BRB books). So, the only way to bring Shadowsun is with Stealth Suits or Kroot; Vespids, if you use Allied Advance Cadre; Pathfinders, if you use Ranged Support Cadre.
The FAQ states "an IC without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of 'infiltrators' during deployment and vice versa"
It's very clear they are nerfing infiltrate bombs. As stating "infiltrators" aka units in the act of infiltrating. SS can join crisis suits... Start on the table, outflank, deepstrike, but cannot infiltrate with them.
Likewise stealthsuits cannot be joined with a commander and infiltrate, but may deploy any other way.
You can't *not* infiltrate. If a unit has the infiltrators rule, it's infiltrating (or starting in reserves) and cannot be joined by a character without it.
You can't *not* infiltrate. If a unit has the infiltrators rule, it's infiltrating (or starting in reserves) and cannot be joined by a character without it.
Where anywhere does it say that units that have the infiltrate rule have to actually infiltrate? It doesn't.
Thud wrote: I'm at work, so if either of you could quote the first two sentences of the infiltrators rule for me, that'd be great.
Same.
Lets look at a similar situation. a model with deepstrike. Under the deepstrike rule it doesn't say "has the option" or "may choose too" (atleast I don't believe so), but by no means do we require people to always deepstrike crisis suits, terminators, etc.
Absolutely nothing says you have to infiltrate if you have it, the only restriction is you cant deploy normally since is says "units with at least 1 model with this rule ARE deployed last" but that obviously doesnt prevent reserves since it confers Outflank too. Shadowsun can deepstrike or outflank, and thats how she joins different units. You specify what units are in reserves, and when you do that you group the ICs together. Otherwise ICs literally could NEVER deploy via reserves with a unit. If you deepstrike, you are not infiltrating.
Infiltrate is the rule in question, "Infiltrators" is the action of the rule.
Ork codex specifically mentions under Snikrot's rule: "If Boss Snikrot joins a unit of Kommandos that are held in Reserves, and no other Independent Characters join the unit, then Snikrot's unit can move on from ... " rest goes on describing the ambush rule. Orks have no other character that can join Kommandos except via outflank. Its a thing. I used to do it all the damn time with Ghazzy but they changed Snikrot to disallow me from showing behind my opponent so now i have to outflank normally. It clearly mentions ICs CAN join the unit, but not if you want Snikrot's special rule.
All that FAQ means is you cannot infiltrate a noninfiltrating unit with an IC. Meaning we cannot simply give our broadsides the best possible firing position without ever moving or deepstriking.
Deepstrike does give you the option, it says "SOME units must be held in reserves" meaning only ones that specifically say they have to be in reserves are required to deepstrike. Rest is optional (oh god if i HAD to deepstrike tau would be unplayable, so many mishaps).
However this is going into YMDC territory, and i despise that kind of talk because people love hanging on the tiniest wording hole to completely bypass huge rules (such as the whole vehicles and Ruins debacle still giving vehicles a 4+ even if theyre not 25% covered) I prefer to play logically - if it makes no damn sense and its not specifically worded clearly in that manner, it doesnt happen.
Also I dont think the Riptide Wing is part of the Dawnblade Contingent meaning it is probably meant for the Tau forces outside the Enclaves. Not saying we cant take it but we would have to take something else in order to field it with our FSE forces.
Based on what we've seen so far, the Riptide Wing is not part of the Dawnblade Contingent, neither is the Ghostkeel Wing. They also aren't part of the Hunter Contingent. Both of them are just regular formations. They don't fit into a Decurion style detachment, and are just meant to be taken by itself attached to any army that can ally with Tau. This is why they're so powerful compared to the other formations; the other formations get the Contingent special rules plus their formation special rules, while the Wings only get their formation special rules (at least, that's what I'm guessing GW's logic is).
Didnt even notice that but Gl_Redshirt is right. The Riptide/Ghostkeel formation is not listed as an Aux option.
Thats...interesting.
Though i admit i am VERY interested in the Ghostkeel one. Giving majority of my table Stealth is massive lol Also i mainly want Ghostkeels because they can easily sit in front of my forces and eat melee assuming its not a melee star. The ability to let them charge and deny overwatch is hilarious. "Enemy units cannot make Overwatch attacsk against a unit from this Formation that is within 6" of another unit from this Formation when overwatch attacks would be made" Meaning if i have 2 of them assault, you cant overwatch me. Eat that, Devastators or Grav units!! lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Infiltrate is the rule in question, "Infiltrators" is the action of the rule.
"Infiltrate" is the name of the special rule. Infiltrators are those with the special rule.
The infiltrate rule states you deploy last, and wherever you want (with some restrictions). Not that you may choose to deploy in a different manner than normal. If a unit has this rule, this is how it deploys. Stating that a unit with the rule cannot deploy normally would be redundant.
FAQ states ICs without the rule cannot join infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.
So, this is by no means optimal but since i dont play that way im totally doing it.
Bodyguards are not limited to signature systems like Crisis Suit Shas'uis are, they are granted the same privilege commanders are. We have a couple of signature systems im willing to bet alot of people forgot exist, since we never ever use it.
Failsafe Detonator and Repulsor Impact Field
Solo bodyguard with duo flamers/stims charges troops. If he gets charged, he causes D6 free S4 hits. If he dies, he takes them with him via S5 blast.
Totally not a tournament level trick but its funny as gak.
Oh and give him the NSJ for the lawls since hes definitely in range of something to make them Gets Hot for a turn.
WRT the Skyray missile issue (shooting all of them). I have a gut feeling that when they say "missiles" in the context of being able to shoot all of them GW means "one-shot weapons on flyers," not anything with "missile" in the name.
So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.
Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.
However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.
luke1705 wrote: So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.
The Farsight Enclaves supplement is still valid... so you can still take Crisis Suits as troops in a CAD.
luke1705 wrote: So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.
The Farsight Enclaves supplement is still valid... so you can still take Crisis Suits as troops in a CAD.
Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)
Vineheart01 wrote: Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.
However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.
ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.
luke1705 wrote: So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.
The Farsight Enclaves supplement is still valid... so you can still take Crisis Suits as troops in a CAD.
Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)
Vineheart01 wrote: Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.
However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.
ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.
Has anyone played around with a Fish of Fury swarm style of list? I think the new Skyray formation isn't exactly bad, and it does provide a nice Devilfish for your Ethereal formation that's super hard to kill, and gives your army a lot of ability to just hang out and do its thing.
Not only that but the Piranha formation is also rather strong since it can vomit out drones to go along with the idea of having more bodies they can possibly deal with, and they do benefit from your Ethereal group that has enough survival with Aun'va and other things that they should very rarely give up the victory points if played right.
Oh, and the tactical turrets the Fire Warrior squads can take now do help with the issue of losing out on missiles when maxing out troops instead of taking Crisis Suits. The troops that now have Stubborn, leadership 10, and a FNP save D:
Vector Strike wrote: Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)
This is a campaign book it does not replace the supplement book just like the Kyuon book doesn't replace the Tau Codex. This book only introduces the Dawn Contingent, hence why there are rumors of a new Farsight book next year.
Vector Strike wrote: Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)
This is a campaign book it does not replace the supplement book just like the Kyuon book doesn't replace the Tau Codex. This book only introduces the Dawn Contingent, hence why there are rumors of a new Farsight book next year.
Actually, Kauyon DOES replace the Tau Codex in so far as we're talking about the entries that get updated within Kauyon.
Farsight is effectively invalidated by Mont'ka, as it is intended to work as a replacement. It even retains the caveat of "Crisis Suits in a Farsight Detachment become Troops".
Vineheart01 wrote: Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.
However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.
ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.
Truth....so.....?
So hes trying to make sure vineheart isn't giving out ObSec to everyone when they don't actually get it.
Vineheart01 wrote: Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.
However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.
ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.
Truth....so.....?
So hes trying to make sure vineheart isn't giving out ObSec to everyone when they don't actually get it.
Precisely. Vineheart01's statement makes it seem like he/she is giving ALL bound lists ObSec. That is very much incorrect.
Not that it ever matters anyway. Literally never had a situation where obsec means anything - one side always gets wiped out
Man, every game I play comes down to that. Maelstrom especially, I have done really well with my FSE CAD because so many people play formations that no longer grant it. Windrider host for an example. Doesn't matter if his bikes are there or not, objective is mine.
Entire armies are set around the concept of "you can't possibly kill all my dudes" (necrons, some of the renegades variations, daemon summoning factory, nid spawn lists, etc.)
Obsec matter in these cases, obsec matters if you cant kill the enemy -right now- for some reason (more pressing issues, and your troops are not that lethal.) obsec matters when your troops are melee-ish,or tarpits, then you can claim the objective by simply attacking, and even if you fail to whip to enemy, you still claim the points.
i face against 2 necron players regularly. Its their formation for a 4+ reanimate that makes them deadly, the 5+ isnt that bad. They consistently roll 4s, not 4+. Virtually every time i cause ID and reduce it to a 5, they fail.
Also the formation for reanimate on wraiths.
Dont get me wrong theyre still a pain in the ass to kill, but if they get obsec theyre nowhere near as bad.
What if they are in the decurion, and YOU posses the obsec?
Suddenly killing them all, despite how hard it is, don't matter as much. you can win despite not being able to cause too much damage.
So picked up the Mont'ka book and found this interesting tidbit that I knew I was looking for but could not find on the interwebs:
"If you wish, you can say that any Tau detachment or formation is from the Farsight Enclaves"
This gives them access to the FE signature systems, crisis troops, CC attacks get PE Orks, you must take bonding knives if you can, and you get access to the FE warlord traits.
Worth pointing out that characters who are in FE can't use Tau signature systems - they can only use FE ones.
Really, that's what I was waiting to hear. I think I'll just go normal CAD with farsight and friends, then take an OSC or two as a normal formatjon detachment. Sadly, O'Vesa can't join the party at normal points levels
Automatically Appended Next Post: In light of this, I have to ask:
How would you guys do farsight bomb?
You can put shadowsun and farsight in the same unit now, so I have to wonder if it's not extremely viable in light of all our formation options
Outside from the formations what else has changed in the FSE? I always thought it was a little underwhelming when I got the last book since it was basically some war gear and not much else if you were just looking for things to build a list with. Not that the book was bad, I was just expecting something different.
That's one thing I wish Tau had more of, something like Chaos where you have all the options of uniforms from the legions but then things like KDK, and the rumoured TDK, which let you have much larger armies of one theme that still look different and play differently. Would be nice to get something like Tau Auxiliaries which expand on the Kroot, Vespids, and other allies of the Tau.
They are the same as far as I can tell. The ECPA is still the only thing worth taking.
The nice thing is that any detachment can have crisis troops. This only matters with a CAD naturally. Having only obsec crisis suits as your troops means no tax units. In between Farsight (who is a little underwhelming but guaranteed no scatter deep strike is not bad) and formations that can guarantee the bomb coming in on turn 2, it's an interesting idea.
I think, with a little tweaking, you can have a 9 strong suit unit (with whatever amount of drones that you want) as well as Farsight and shadowsun.
Gives guaranteed turn 2 deep strike with no scatter, and the unit has stealth and shrouded. Hop in any area terrain and you get 2+ cover.
An appropriate amount of target locks and a buffmander in that unit is expensive, yes. However, he does a ton of nice things for the squad (twin-linked, ignores cover, tank hunter or monster hunter). You could have the whole unit be obsec too if you have the crisis suits themselves be from FSE, but you lose out on the ability to have a discounted buffmander from inside the unit.
Riptides can no longer take signature systems in a FE detachment. Aside from obsec crisis suits, the FE list is not really offering anything tangible for a tau player. The normal tau list, like previously, is quite frankly just plain out better.
wighti wrote: Riptides can no longer take signature systems in a FE detachment. Aside from obsec crisis suits, the FE list is not really offering anything tangible for a tau player. The normal tau list, like previously, is quite frankly just plain out better.
This is false, this is a total misprint by GW and it should be FAQ'd soon. The Earth Caste Pilot Array it affects a Nova Reactor and the Riptides the only model that has that meaning this relic is only be useful on a Riptide. If anyone seriously tries to nitpick that and say no you can't use it I would have to label them TFG.
Krellnus wrote: They took away the minimum unit of 3 crisis suits in a detachment, I doubt this is a misprint.
I'm not saying that is a misprint, what I'm saying is a misprint or what they forgot to add is that Riptides can take signature systems still from the Farsight Enclavea. It makes no sense for the Earth Caste Pilot Array to allow a reroll of the Nova Reactor if the Riptide cannot take it to begin with.
O'Vesa still has it on his profile, which considering The Eight are the only models within FSE that essentially ignore signature system rules, I don't think we are gonna get a FAQ.
Krellnus wrote: They took away the minimum unit of 3 crisis suits in a detachment, I doubt this is a misprint.
I'm not saying that is a misprint, what I'm saying is a misprint or what they forgot to add is that Riptides can take signature systems still from the Farsight Enclavea. It makes no sense for the Earth Caste Pilot Array to allow a reroll of the Nova Reactor if the Riptide cannot take it to begin with.
The special character guy in the eight has it, so perhaps he is the only riptide who can use the ECPA.
Then again, there's a detachment that can have 3 ravenwing characters in it when there's just a single one in the game.
It's my belief that the days of GWFAQ'ing anything are done. Fingers crossed that they'll prove me wrong. There was that rumour of new FAQ's coming but that was a while ago ...
Tau have so many loopholes they could have easily released a day 1 FAQ just to prove to us that they still FAQ. Not a single peep yet. Im halfway tempted to goto Suggested Rules and come up with my own damn FAQ, considering i am constantly trying to nerf my own forces to not feel like a dick to my friends i could probably rule a lot of things fairly. Problem is that forum always turns into a "Well i think it should be X" even if the suggestion is a damn good one.
Quite frankly i dont know why people want the FSE sig systems so bad. The Relic is the only one to me thats amazing, the rest are either too expensive for what they do or crap anyway. ECPA wasnt bad, but it kinda makes no sense to call it a signature system when its a riptide only thing to begin with. Could have been easier to word it like Longstrike where 1 per army can be upgraded with it. Speaking of which, even if riptides are denied it now (which is kinda dumb) Ovesa still has it unless they changed his profile. Doesnt matter if the unit hes based on cant take it, if its listed in his profile he has it. Doesnt he technically have 3 support system stuff too?
Vineheart01 wrote: Quite frankly i dont know why people want the FSE sig systems so bad. The Relic is the only one to me thats amazing, the rest are either too expensive for what they do or crap anyway. ECPA wasnt bad, but it kinda makes no sense to call it a signature system when its a riptide only thing to begin with. Could have been easier to word it like Longstrike where 1 per army can be upgraded with it.
Speaking of which, even if riptides are denied it now (which is kinda dumb) Ovesa still has it unless they changed his profile. Doesnt matter if the unit hes based on cant take it, if its listed in his profile he has it. Doesnt he technically have 3 support system stuff too?
Honestly I will have to double check how many Systems Ovesa has and again it doesn't make sense that other Riptides cannot take the Earth Caste Pilot array. If it were only meant for Ovesa then why would they bother to put a point value on it when Ovesa already has a set points cost? Im going to play the ECPA as I always have and use it on one of my Riptides, because the rules clearly are intended for that.
Vineheart01 wrote: Quite frankly i dont know why people want the FSE sig systems so bad. The Relic is the only one to me thats amazing, the rest are either too expensive for what they do or crap anyway. ECPA wasnt bad, but it kinda makes no sense to call it a signature system when its a riptide only thing to begin with. Could have been easier to word it like Longstrike where 1 per army can be upgraded with it.
Speaking of which, even if riptides are denied it now (which is kinda dumb) Ovesa still has it unless they changed his profile. Doesnt matter if the unit hes based on cant take it, if its listed in his profile he has it. Doesnt he technically have 3 support system stuff too?
Honestly I will have to double check how many Systems Ovesa has and again it doesn't make sense that other Riptides cannot take the Earth Caste Pilot array. If it were only meant for Ovesa then why would they bother to put a point value on it when Ovesa already has a set points cost? Im going to play the ECPA as I always have and use it on one of my Riptides, because the rules clearly are intended for that.
the problem isnt how it clearly should work. The problem is all the people out there who just hate tau that will try and screw you out of your gear. just like they are trying with the clearly defined rules for the ITC.
Being unable to take specific characters of the Eight is just dumb.
The Eight on their own is insanely expensive and offer so many weird methods of attack you need an apoc sized game to even utilize them...but then you run into issues like "why would you put flamers on a commander....?" then again thats a problem in general lol.
Also i see no way to jib Ovesa out of any of his rules. His cost includes all of his gear which are specifically stated just like ANY character is minus Shadowsun with her optional drones. Though i can see WAAC people saying normal Riptides cant get ECPA now.
Which is why i avoid tournaments. Thats the #1 place you'll find those kinds of people, the ones you find outside of it can be easily avoided/ignored. Only one such person in my area, and hes kinda disappeared because everyone is sick of him threading between the rules.
For that crowning moment of awesomeness with the formation of her overwatching against a unit over twice as far as the flamer can actually reach (24" supporting fire range wall of death!)
Also, its not just WAAC, by following the written word-currently a run of the mill tide CANT get the ECPA. and that sucks for me because I really counted on that in my past armies.
My friends will probably let it slide for now until FAQed (hopefully), but I won't allow myself to you it in pickup games.
I down loaded the Mont'ka book on My iPad, and I cannot find the point values anywhere for the eight. Are they the same as they were in the FSE supplement?
I'm really surprised they didn't have each of the eight be an upgrade option in their own formation, with special rules. Like Torchstar gets a unit of XV8s that must be armed with a flamer or TL flamer, and get 3" torrent or some such, and the guy with the fusion sword gets body guards armed with power weapons and are WS4 I4, because they are stabby.
Honestly I'm just going to toss 1 of the Eight in their own Suit Squad and kit them out based on the Commander. Maybe not great but will be alot of fun.
I tried that when i first found out about the Eight. I wanted to run them all with their own squads, and it reached apoc levels REALLY fast considering the sheer size of the army also forces other units they arent with such as multiple marker units, tanks, or additional MCs.
Also to the guys wondering about the Eights costs: there arent any listed. You are suppose to look at the gear and math it out - which is really annoying. The FSE doesnt list any points. They also dont change their stats other than adding the IC rule, so Ovesa/Ob'lotai are BS3
In spoilers since its rather large. Also bear in mind this was before Ghostkeels, Breachers, or Surges, so things like crisis suit numbers could be beefed up heavily if you wish.
Spoiler:
All units that can take Bonding Knife Ritual have it factored in their costs rather than listing it since its required.
Commander Farsight (Warlord) 165pts --Unit of 3 Crisis Suits w/ Plasmas, two w/ Shields, Stims, and the other with Vectored Retro Thrustors, Stims, 6 Gun Drones 286pts ----Reasons for this loadout: Farsight wants melee, but nothing in our army really does. So rather than deck out his unit in extra plasmas, make them survive via invuls and stims. Crisis suits can hit hard in melee, they just lack AP to be of any real use - so wound sponges that can potentially fight back!. Utilize Hit and Run with Farsights' Init 5 to get out of combat during your opponents Assault Phase to shoot then recharge in. Drones are personal preference, i seem to do badly without them. Considering he doesnt scatter when he deepstrikes, the giant footprint isnt a problem.
O'vesa 305pts ----Note: Remember that O'vesa comes with 2 25pt flippin shield drones. Normally they are terrible but since he can LoS unlike a normal Riptide, they can actually be utilized properly. Use his armor on anything that doesnt pen it, ideally after O'vesa has suffered a couple wounds to avoid putting him in low life.
Commander Bravestorm 199pts --Unit of 3 Crisis Suits w/ Plasma, Flamer, two with Stims and last with VRT, 6 gun drones 236pts ----Reasons: Bravestorm is the oddball of the commanders to me. Iridium armor and flamer says he wants to be up and personal, but not in melee combat. So i kitted his troops the same way, one with VRTs just in case he does get in combat. Personally i like Stims over Shields because theyre 10pts less and especially in this case you have a T5 2+ 4++ tank in front of the unit eating all the ID guns for our crisis suits.
Broadsite Shas'vre Ob'lotai 9-0 118pts --Unit of 3 Broadsides with HYMP, SMS, EWO, and 6 Missile Drones 288pts ----Do i really need to explain this one? lol
Commander Brightsword 200pts --Unit of 3 Crisis Suits w/ Fusions, two with Shields/Stims, last with VRT/Stims, 6 Gun Drones 286pts ----Reasons: Brightsword is the "other" melee guy. He effectively strikes with fusion blasters in melee, which means he wants vehicles. Quite frankly plasmas might be better for the crisis suits since odds are any vehicle you fire 4 Fusions at (1 is TL and BS5) probably isnt going to survive to be charged. The stims/shields/VRT combo is again to keep this guy alive and enable fleeing combat with Init4 from drones. Personally i hate this guy, i really hope i am misreading how the Fusion Blades is costed and its suppose to replace the TL Fusions entirely including costs, and not cost 50pts in total (20 from TL Fusion, 30 from the Sig system) because thats just insanely expensive. Dont even get me started on the "Power Outage" crap.
Shas'O Arra'kon 169pts --Unit of 3 Crisis Suits w/ Duo Plasmas, Targetlocks, 6 Gun Drones 249pts ----Reasons: Arra'kon has three weapons, a CIB, Airburster, and Plasma. Basically he can hit any unit he really wants to, but since the two that dont have high AP also cause a lot of hits i dont see why you wouldnt arm his unit with plasmas and just go for armored units entirely - possibly having him and the gun drones fire at troops with the Airburster/CIB while the TL'ing suits fire at something with real armor.
Shas'o Sha'vastos 174pts --Unit of 3 Crisis Suits (MIXED) -- Two with duo plasmas, target locks, other with duo Fusions, target locks, 6 gun drones 249pts ----Reasons: Sha'vastos has the PEN chip and plasma/flamer. The flamer makes no damn sense but its there. Make use of this PEN chip unit by going after MCs/Vehicles, hence the plasmas in 2 units for number of AP2 attacks and the solo Melta since odds are 2 melta shots will kill a vehicle most of the time.
Sub-commander Torchstar 154pts --Unit of 3 Crisis Suits w/ Duo Flamers, Stims, 4 ML Drones 192pts ----Reasons: Torchstar again makes no damn sense. Duo flamers with NSJ which says hes an up close striker, but he has a DC w/ ML drones and a MSSS!! Why does a FLAMER commander have that? 20pt tax for no reason. You can technically ignore his flamers and just put him in a duo MP crisis team and ML drones to make him your BS5 ML unit, since we have no "buffmander" in this list available to us, but i'd rather keep him in Supporting Fire range and just D3 the gak out of anyone that tries to charge my suits in addition to the ML support. I'd rather completely ignore the MSSS in this case, so im a bit salty i have to pay 20pts for it.
Total: 3340pts. And this is just The Eight, this isnt even factoring in any real support or additional Riptides, Broadsides, or Skyray units. Considering Crisis Suits are Troops and theres 6 units here, this is entirely within a single CAD. Add in a couple more Riptides and a Skyray, it hits 3925pts. Add in 4-5 Pathfinder units for more ML support, it reaches 4285pts (6man Pathfinder squads, no upgrades other than the mandatory BKR).
This is why forcing us to take The Eight is just beyond stupid. 3 of them have dumb gear lists and force either ignoring some of it but paying it anyway, or really funky playstyles. You can shave a lot of points if you take out the 30 Gun Drones (360pts) but then you lose a lot of ablative wounds. And theyre INSANELY expensive. Without any units to attach to, theyre 1484pts!!!!
Now bear in mind i dont have Mont'ka so if they changed their wargears out my opinion might change. This was using the FSE, not Mont'ka
Oh, and another tax i didnt factor in. Since the Eight is a formation now and not counting as a single HQ choice, you are now requiring 1 more random commander minimum to bring the CAD with the 6 crisis suit squads in it. That, or an insane tax by using a couple Retaliation Cadres or some other formation that gives you Crisis units lol.
Quite frankly im not surprised. Even though i am convinced people like rulehammering non-imperial rules, even i agree the USR sharing of the hunter contingent was just ridiculous. Its still dead powerful if you spam MSU and just have them behave as a unit without being a unit, giving +1BS everywhere and making MLs vastly more powerful.
Now im going to laugh my ass off if GW finally FAQs the tau codex and says otherwise lol
My issue with it us, even though it's a good call - if it was an imperial army it would be made to share. The main reason itc voting ruled against is that it's a xeno army rather than because it was the right call.
BoomWolf wrote: My issue with it us, even though it's a good call - if it was an imperial army it would be made to share. The main reason itc voting ruled against is that it's a xeno army rather than because it was the right call.
Yup exactly. If it was a space marine army or even elder, there are enough players for those that any rules would be passed.
Finally (Thank you ITC for bringing together the question!)
So no crazy USR sharing co-ord fire rule, just plain, simple ML efficiency and +1BS buff.
Now what is the mathhammer, across a couple of points; -The benefit of the native +1BS bonus (assume it is always 3 units, simplicity) so each unit involved gets... effective guaranteed 2 x BS 3 markerlight shots for free, 6 shots per group?
- Sharing ML's (I assume just ML are 3x as potent?)
- Cost of minimum outlay
-Cost of optimal outlay (The fast/elite/heavy slots would assuming stay-as Drones/Riptide or/and Ghostkeel/Stormsurge).
- Comparison to similar point expenditure (So a Farsight army can field XV8's as troops - so (technically) 46pt troop tax, compared to the 145pt (which admittedly has the inherent benefit of being able to contribute to the co-ord fire rule).
In a way I"m happy with the ITC rule because it got really confusing really fast when playing (esp. adding things like dark strider or, more innocently, the pulse accelarator drone. Now It's basically shared marker light and +1 bs, decent but not OP.
The Mont'ka one gives you a free ''Doom'' psychic power a turn which is still great. (It doesn't give you re-roll on D attacks right?). Mont'ka seems to create quite ''fluffy'' army lists by design, arrive turn 2 from DS and remove one enemy unit, the killing blow indeed!.
On another not, In Mont'ka, the only way to get the storm surge is the Hunter Contingent correct?
Fruzzle wrote: On another not, In Mont'ka, the only way to get the storm surge is the Hunter Contingent correct?
You mean the Hunter Cadre?
In a Dawn Blade Detachment, the Hunter Cadre is the only way to add Stormsurges. However, a Heavy Retribution Cadre can be added to any FSE army, even using its rules - but not to a Dawn Blade Detachment. It will be a separate formation.
Codex/kayoun hunter contingent is either tau empire or FSE.
Montka dawn blade contingent is FSE only, and montka has a few extra formations that don't belong to either contingent.
You can take any formations you like, but only those listed as core/Auxilliary count for the superformation bonus...
Though honestly, the Farsight superformation bonus seems to work oddly: Instead of a direct buff, it's essentially a penalty assigned to an enemy unit. Seems like that one might be army wide by it's wording? Or at least, battle brothers wide since other allies don't get command benefits?
changemod wrote: You can take any formations you like, but only those listed as core/Auxilliary count for the superformation bonus...
Though honestly, the Farsight superformation bonus seems to work oddly: Instead of a direct buff, it's essentially a penalty assigned to an enemy unit. Seems like that one might be army wide by it's wording? Or at least, battle brothers wide since other allies don't get command benefits?
It lacks clarity.
Pick an enemy unit. All models under a dawn blade contingent get killing blow against that chosen unit.
If you took dawn blade and a CAD. The CAD models would not gain this bonus regardless of faction.
changemod wrote: You can take any formations you like, but only those listed as core/Auxilliary count for the superformation bonus...
Though honestly, the Farsight superformation bonus seems to work oddly: Instead of a direct buff, it's essentially a penalty assigned to an enemy unit. Seems like that one might be army wide by it's wording? Or at least, battle brothers wide since other allies don't get command benefits?
It lacks clarity.
By the wording, means the entire army.
Allies of Convenience
Units from the same army that are Allies of Convenience treat each other as ‘enemy units’ that cannot be charged, shot, attacked in close combat, or targeted with psychic powers. This means, for example, that units:
• Cannot move with 1" of an Allies of Convenience model.
• Cannot benefit from the Warlord Trait of an Allies of Convenience Warlord.
• Cannot be joined by Independent Characters that are Allies of Convenience.
• Are not counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities and so on.
• Cannot use special abilities to repair Hull Points, Immobilised or Weapon Destroyed results on Allies of Convenience vehicles.
• Cannot use modifiers and re-rolls that apply to Reserve Rolls that are granted by an Allies of Convenience model.
• Are affected by attacks, special rules or abilities used by Allies of Convenience that affect ‘enemy’ units within a certain range or area of effect.
Killing Blow isn't an ability (it's a special rule) and it doesn't target allies anyway.
ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.
Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.
ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.
Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.
Didnt vote either because i didnt know about it. Then again like i said i think its overpowered. Yeah, its basically every turn something WILL die regardless of how durable it is, but thats the problem. There shouldnt be something so powerful it counters something else that clearly needs a damn nerf (looking at you invis) - it needs to be the other way around, nerf the op thing instead of making even more op things.
Had i of voted, i probably would have voted for Primary Targets and not Target Locks. Despite what i just said, i know GW would never balance that way so i'd rather have the option to b-slap dickheads that use inviso stars and the like, and not use it at all against people that dont. Not for Target Locks though, since that would insanely confuse things if you allowed it at all.
Also, nothing says you cant take the formations listed in either the main codex or Mont'ka with each other. The only restriction is utilizing them in the Hunter Contingent or Dawn Blade - i.e. i can take the Drone Net in a Hunter Contingent list, but it wont benefit from any rules Hunter Contingent gives me nor would it count as one of my Aux choices.
ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.
Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.
Ah...I was regularly checking the Tournament Discussions forum, which is where I have seen a few other ITC notifications in the past. Why post the notifier in 40K General Discussions? Sigh.
ITC voted against sharing rules in all forms (Via Target Lock or against a single enemy unit) and against sharing Darkstrider's -1T ability.
Well that sucks. I didn't even know they were voting on this and lost the chance to have my voice count. I wonder how many other Tau players didn't vote. Normally their polls are better publicized than that.
Ah...I was regularly checking the Tournament Discussions forum, which is where I have seen a few other ITC notifications in the past. Why post the notifier in 40K General Discussions? Sigh.
Because the link was posted by another subscriber and not someone from Frontline.
After reading through the ITC doc and including the the voted on updates, Tau are fine. While they can't share special rules via Coordinated Fire, the Stormsurge can fire all weapons every turn and is immune to Tank Shock. All in all, it a minor change to tactics that will probably speed up play due to less arguing. Also, if you don't like the ruling, you can chose not to support ITC events.
So speaking of the Mont'ka, anyone else check out the VX!-0 drone net? For just over 200pts you get 16 (4x4) Jinking, intercepting, outflanking, Precise shooting, Splitfiring, JSJ, BS3 Markerlights.
In fact it gives ALL drones in your army +1 BS. non-formation drones are specifically given this permission. Taking a VX1-0 along with a Hunter Contingent and you have got have got some really sweet ML bonus shenanigans.
Anyone? more like everyone.
The drone net is one of is not THE most talked about auxiliary in the dawn blade contingent. being only topped by the absurdity that is the firestorm (who is bound to get nerfed by ITC too)
The real kicker, is that RAW, the BS boost should stack if you get multiple drone formations. RAI its nonsense, but RAW it does.
The sheer power of it, even with mere gun drone spam, cannot be denied. they become far superior fire warriors. (at least compared to carbine warriors.)
(its slightly over 250 for a minimal setup though. and you defiantly want more than minimal setting-because drone network gun drones are amazing.)
BoomWolf wrote: My issue with it us, even though it's a good call - if it was an imperial army it would be made to share. The main reason itc voting ruled against is that it's a xeno army rather than because it was the right call.
Mont'ka's looking pretty good for you guys. Makes me want to collect Tau even though my friend collects them (I have an old Riptide I was going to use for the old Firebase Support Cadre but never got round to finishing it. Might get a few more for Riptide Wing).
The real kicker, is that RAW, the BS boost should stack if you get multiple drone formations. RAI its nonsense, but RAW it does.
Nope. Bonuses from the same rule do not stack without specific permission. Bonuses from different rules do stack. Multiple Drone Nets still provide the same rule, not different versions of the same rule.
Its listed as a Special Rule to get the army wide +1BS - Special Rules of the same exact rule do not stack. Only way you can stack effects is if they are NOT the same rule, but have the same effect (Fire Team + Coordinated Firepower for example giving +2BS together).
Drone Net +1BS is the same rule for both formations. Not saying its a bad idea to take 2 minimal formations rather than 4x8 man units, since then you can divvy up your MLs better and suffer less from high RoF AP4 guns/jink forces. In fact, i dont see any reason to bring more than 4x4 unless you simply cant field it twice and just wanna field as much as you can (4x6 for instance) You'd have to mark the units to which formation to keep the rule going, since theyre "different formations" but now you have a backup in case one formation gets whooped you still have +1BS.
If it was listed strictly as "This formation adds +1BS to all drones in your army" with no special rule bold print or restrictions, then it would stack. But it doesnt list it that way.
As you have 2 formations, each formation has their own copy of the rule.
Therefor, formation A has a rule saying "all drones, regardless of origin, gets +1 BS" and now both formation A and formation B drones are BS3
Formation B however, also have a rule saying "all drones, regardless of origin, gets +1 BS" kicking on to team B and team A, making their 3 a 4.
As the formation does not actually grant every drone on the field a rule that ups the BS value (like "stealth" does for cover for example), but a blanket case of "If Z allies, than for every X do Y, else do nothing" sort of effect to simply increase drone BS as long the condition is met that don't have to even be held by the unit affected by it, there is nothing in the rulebook that restrict two or more instances of that blanket modification from overlapping
Now, while every sane man that is not a cheater will tell you its obviously not how its supposed to work, by adhering to only the written word, you can't find anything that will prevent this from happening.
The reason there is no such rule that blocks the sae rule from applying multiple times, is that its not really needed by other rules, there is no other case I know of of a rule that even matters if it has multiple instances. even stealth and shrouded are worded in such a way that they themselves prevent double dipping by saying "a unit containing one or more..." in them-making them not matter how many times its there. fusion charge similarily blocks itself by noting "a unit with this special rule..." as its an on/off switch, you have it or not. you don't care how many times.
But the drone rule, has no such inner block by its wording. probably because they thought it was obvious and didn't consider how munchkin some 40k players are.
Attempting it in a real game may or may not cause your drones to be used as golf balls though.
On general PROPER use for this, once you ignore the "stacking" nonsense, the formation contains AT LEAST 4 drone teams, you can field more. never a need to use the formation twice once you accept that stacking the BS boost is slowed and will lead to social banishment.
So I'm working on my Necron list and I was considering putting in some Tau allies for high Strength shooting to compliment my more Assault-heavy Crons. What addition do you think is best?
Right now I was thinking of either the Riptide Wing or a FBSC, just something durable to sit behind my Wraiths and pelt the opponent until they get there. Which one do you think is better for this purpose? Or is there another Formation that would work better?
I don't really know Tau that well, figured I'd ask here.
there is nothing in the rulebook that restrict two or more instances of that blanket modification from overlapping
Except that there is:
“Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Requizen wrote: So I'm working on my Necron list and I was considering putting in some Tau allies for high Strength shooting to compliment my more Assault-heavy Crons. What addition do you think is best?
Right now I was thinking of either the Riptide Wing or a FBSC, just something durable to sit behind my Wraiths and pelt the opponent until they get there. Which one do you think is better for this purpose? Or is there another Formation that would work better?
I don't really know Tau that well, figured I'd ask here.
Riptide Wing would probably offer the best bang for your buck with its immense alpha strike capability. You could give one of them the Velocity Tracker to put some hurt on FMC too.
Requizen wrote: So I'm working on my Necron list and I was considering putting in some Tau allies for high Strength shooting to compliment my more Assault-heavy Crons. What addition do you think is best?
Right now I was thinking of either the Riptide Wing or a FBSC, just something durable to sit behind my Wraiths and pelt the opponent until they get there. Which one do you think is better for this purpose? Or is there another Formation that would work better?
I don't really know Tau that well, figured I'd ask here.
Riptide Wing would probably offer the best bang for your buck with its immense alpha strike capability. You could give one of them the Velocity Tracker to put some hurt on FMC too.
Any tips on how to kit them out? I know very little to nothing about Tau other than the cursory stuff (how Markerlights work, Riptides are good, etc).
Load them with Ion Accelerators, Early Warning Override, with Stims being option (35pts each so ... can add up lol)
IA riptides are far safer of an option than Heavy Burst Cannon riptides because they dont need the Nova Charge to do any serious damage. They do have Gets Hot to worry about, but thats not as big of a deal. They are great for taking out termie blobs or other such 2+ units, especially ones that deepstrike in with EWO(interceptor).
This is the safer option, but leaves them kinda static in their target priority. IA riptides are lousy against vehicles, since its still a single shot, and as a result are also terrible AA platforms. The lack of Nova Charge risk makes them the favorite between them and HBC riptides.
HBC Riptides are high risk high reward type mentality. They MUST pass the nova charge to be a real threat, and considering these 3 riptides can reroll failed novas if theyre within 6" of another one that chance just skyrocketed. Without nova, theyre 8 S6 AP4 shots...not that amazing. With Nova Charge, theyre 12 S6 AP4 Rending Gets Hot. 12 S6 Rending shots can attack literally anything, i used to have one with a Buffmander attached when that was still legal and he would reliably kill Landraiders in one volley.
HBCs are in my opinion vastly more powerful than IAs, but have a much higher risk to do absolutely nothing. The Riptide Wing formation virtually removes the Nova problem, since a rerollable 3+ is pretty hard to fail. I wouldnt bother with EWO on an HBC riptide personally, but i would definitely grab Advanced Targeting Systems to precision shot things with those 12 shots + your second weapon.
tldr: Heavy Bursts are amazing, but require a passed Nova Test to be any good. Ion Accelerators are more reliable and safe since they dont even need a Nova Test at all, but less powerful.
Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.
In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?
Requizen wrote: Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.
In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?
Personally, I would go with 2 IA and 1 HBC. 2 will have Target locks on them any who so it doesn't matter if you mix and match.
Requizen wrote: Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.
In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?
Personally, I would go with 2 IA and 1 HBC. 2 will have Target locks on them any who so it doesn't matter if you mix and match.
Well you don't need Target Locks since the Riptide Wing formation is 3 separate units, not one unit of 3.
Requizen wrote: Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.
In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?
Personally, I would go with 2 IA and 1 HBC. 2 will have Target locks on them any who so it doesn't matter if you mix and match.
Well you don't need Target Locks since the Riptide Wing formation is 3 separate units, not one unit of 3.
Oh my bad. for some reason I had read it as 1 squad of 3 lol! Either way, I would take 2 IA with EWO and 1 HBC with ATS. That way I have 2 AP 2 Large Blasts that can use intercepter and 1 that I can dedicate to MC or Tank Hunting.
Yea i would divvy them up and have 1 HBC. Personally, i'd go 2 HBC 1 IA but thats because in my experience the HBC does so much more damage when it actually passes the nova.
However, coupled with Crons, you probably want the AP2 over the Rending. Crons dont usually have a problem with wounding/glancing ANYTHING but they do have a problem with good armor saves. IA would deal with that without Nova risks or demanding 6s to wound - just dont fail that Gets Hot! test lol
Theres also lack of Markerlight support to consider, since if youre bringing the Riptide Wing youre already dedicating ~600-700pts to a Tau detachment. If you want ML support, you either need a Drone Net as well (and im fuzzy on the rules for allied formations, i THINK youre still restricted to 1 non-main force faction detachment but i could be wrong) which is another ~224pts, or an actual CAD for Pathfinder access, which is even more expensive due to the Firewarrior and Commander tax.
IAs utilizing the Blast typically dont completely miss an attack - they may hit the wrong unit, but they still hit something. HBCs dont have that luxury, a miss for them is a lost shot period with no risk of accidental nearby unit damage.
Requizen wrote: Are the Drones worth it for the Riptide? I could see having 2 extra 4++ wounds as a nice boost, but 25 points per Drone seems pretty steep.
No not worth it all. Losing 1 drone requires a moral check and the possibility of your 200 Point model falling back
Theyre 25pts each, which is 2x +1 the cost of normal Drones for no real benefit (they still die to Bolter spam just as easy, even though theyre T6)
When ANY drone dies, the Riptide is forced to leadership test. Considering they offer very little protection/dakka for the cost, the very easy free LD test for your opponent to force is too risky.
Ive literally never taken them. Ever. Too expensive for a BS2 MP that happens to have a Shield Gen even though he will never use it.
Its why i hate Shield Drones to begin with. All drones die just as fast regardless of toughness/armor/shields because all you gotta do is hit them with some anti-troop weapon and they die - exposing the suit behind them to the big guns anyway.
Only reason they arent bad on Ovesa (the named character riptide for Farsight users) is because he can use his own armor on the anti-troop crap and LoS the AP2 stuff, so they actually get used right. Normal riptides cant do that, and you cant put Ovesa in the Riptide Wing either.
Theyre 25pts each, which is 2x +1 the cost of normal Drones for no real benefit (they still die to Bolter spam just as easy, even though theyre T6)
When ANY drone dies, the Riptide is forced to leadership test. Considering they offer very little protection/dakka for the cost, the very easy free LD test for your opponent to force is too risky.
Ive literally never taken them. Ever. Too expensive for a BS2 MP that happens to have a Shield Gen even though he will never use it.
Its why i hate Shield Drones to begin with. All drones die just as fast regardless of toughness/armor/shields because all you gotta do is hit them with some anti-troop weapon and they die - exposing the suit behind them to the big guns anyway.
Only reason they arent bad on Ovesa (the named character riptide for Farsight users) is because he can use his own armor on the anti-troop crap and LoS the AP2 stuff, so they actually get used right. Normal riptides cant do that, and you cant put Ovesa in the Riptide Wing either.
Agreed. Honestly, I do not see why drones count toward leadership tests. I was sure in this new codex they would finally make drones not count toward squad size/moral tests....
So something I'm thinking under the ITC format (3 source format) is the idea of just taking 3 formations instead of any "normal" detachments. Any guesses which ones they are? You're a genius if you said:
At 1850, you can have a maxed out OSC, markerlights to taste/missile drones if you think you have enough ML, and you can have not one, but FIVE Riptides. Nothing I would bring to any sort of friendly game, but as a list that I might take to a GT, it may fit the bill. I just don't think I want to use 5 Riptides.....maybe I just try out some Taudar with an allied OSC. Would definitely be nasty
Its listed as a Special Rule to get the army wide +1BS - Special Rules of the same exact rule do not stack. Only way you can stack effects is if they are NOT the same rule, but have the same effect (Fire Team + Coordinated Firepower for example giving +2BS together).
Drone Net +1BS is the same rule for both formations. Not saying its a bad idea to take 2 minimal formations rather than 4x8 man units, since then you can divvy up your MLs better and suffer less from high RoF AP4 guns/jink forces. In fact, i dont see any reason to bring more than 4x4 unless you simply cant field it twice and just wanna field as much as you can (4x6 for instance)
You'd have to mark the units to which formation to keep the rule going, since theyre "different formations" but now you have a backup in case one formation gets whooped you still have +1BS.
If it was listed strictly as "This formation adds +1BS to all drones in your army" with no special rule bold print or restrictions, then it would stack. But it doesnt list it that way.
No need to take multiple formations just add more min drone squads to the formation since it is listed as "4 or more units".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote: Anyone? more like everyone.
The drone net is one of is not THE most talked about auxiliary in the dawn blade contingent. being only topped by the absurdity that is the firestorm (who is bound to get nerfed by ITC too)
The real kicker, is that RAW, the BS boost should stack if you get multiple drone formations. RAI its nonsense, but RAW it does.
The sheer power of it, even with mere gun drone spam, cannot be denied. they become far superior fire warriors. (at least compared to carbine warriors.)
(its slightly over 250 for a minimal setup though. and you defiantly want more than minimal setting-because drone network gun drones are amazing.)
You mean the Piranha firestream? Seekers and drone drops every round, this plus the drone formation would get crazy fast.
Hunter Contingent Vs. Drone net formation (4 squads) (I'm considering trying to fit both or how best to use the latter at the expense of the former).
The way I see it, my troubles are; - 1500pts - I want to field 2 Riptides, a Stormsurge, Ghostkeel - I already have to field minimum 2 drone squads (or equivalent point spends) in Auxiliary formation + Fast attack option for the Hunter Cadre - The commander exists and with the above choices, is very likely to be a Mark'o, reducing the benefit of BS+1 markerlights (set modifiers trump all?) - Whilst jinking drones, intercepting markerlights is good.. it is gimmicky, with the real benefit being +1BS on all drones.
My only other options are to either A) change the above choices, likely the 4 big suit choices or B) field a similar list in a different way. Perhaps CAD with crisis suit as troops (can that still be done) and filler fireblade? But then is loosing shared marerklights plus unit x3 +1bs worth it?
Further thoughts, fielding things like a shield on a Stormsurge.. that 4++, when I'm trying to counter a T6 8W 3+ model, it really shines. Also a VT on the Stormsurge, as either Str10 pies vs. FMC ooor thoses destroyer missiles are true anti-air.
You want to field a stormsurge, 2 tides, and a ghostkeel at 1500pts? Those units need proper support to be of real use. Those 4 models alone would be ~1000pts, leaving you VERY little else to work with.
Also fielding a GMC in a game that small is seriously going to earn you enemies lol
As for the Mark'O and Drone net, the Drones would be BS5 because Multipliers > Modifiers > Set Values. This is why any +1BS we get doesnt affect Snapfires unless it specifically says it does, since Snapfire is a Set value and it comes last.
I was trying to devise a list using Farsight (not a bomb) without riptides. 2k points. Somehow, even though i have 2 ghostkeels in there, i ended up exactly 190pts shy of 2k.
The price of a riptide. And i had an elite slot open.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yea i would divvy them up and have 1 HBC. Personally, i'd go 2 HBC 1 IA but thats because in my experience the HBC does so much more damage when it actually passes the nova.
However, coupled with Crons, you probably want the AP2 over the Rending. Crons dont usually have a problem with wounding/glancing ANYTHING but they do have a problem with good armor saves. IA would deal with that without Nova risks or demanding 6s to wound - just dont fail that Gets Hot! test lol
Theres also lack of Markerlight support to consider, since if youre bringing the Riptide Wing youre already dedicating ~600-700pts to a Tau detachment. If you want ML support, you either need a Drone Net as well (and im fuzzy on the rules for allied formations, i THINK youre still restricted to 1 non-main force faction detachment but i could be wrong) which is another ~224pts, or an actual CAD for Pathfinder access, which is even more expensive due to the Firewarrior and Commander tax.
IAs utilizing the Blast typically dont completely miss an attack - they may hit the wrong unit, but they still hit something. HBCs dont have that luxury, a miss for them is a lost shot period with no risk of accidental nearby unit damage.
I've had this experience with the HBC as well, and I will use two HBCs and one IA when I use the Riptide Wing. But it just depends on the rest of your army. I plan on using a small CAD with a Mark'O, two min squads of Strikers, two Stormsurges with EWO and Shields, then a Riptide wing with EW and a Void Shield Gen.
... I plan on using a small CAD with a Mark'O, two min squads of Strikers, two Stormsurges with EWO and Shields, then a Riptide wing with EW and a Void Shield Gen.
Ive used my stormsurge once so far because i refuse to bring it in 2k or less games unless my opponent wants a deathwish lol.
Unless its eldar, Tau can basically do whatever the hell they want and still win. Ignore vespid, obviously.
I use the Coldstar commander, Piranhas, Hammerheads, and heavy firewarrior squads commonly. I still win. In fact the only formation i dont feel like a total dick bringing is the Retaliation Cadre, because it really only gives me additional crisis suit squads and a commander without taking more firewarriors (if i want more than 3 elites, i dont want more than 2-3 firewarrior units lol). Also rarely ever use both of my riptides, and i still havent even finished making my 3rd one for big games.
Theres more to this game than tabling your opponent by turn3. My friends lose 2/3 of the games we play, but they still like facing my Tau because i dont use all the flavor tactics and cheese. Yeah i pull dick moves but theyre minor stuff like a BS5 12man Drone squad, not multiple stormsurges lol
Vineheart - I'm glad for you. Winning must be nice - but you must appreciate anecdotal examples are near useless. And then providing sweeping statements based on that may be a bit misleading?
Perhaps you've yet to meet a worthy opponent, using a reasonably designed army.
... I plan on using a small CAD with a Mark'O, two min squads of Strikers, two Stormsurges with EWO and Shields, then a Riptide wing with EW and a Void Shield Gen.
Gross, i would hate to be your friends =P
That's only my tournament list, I don't even use Broadsides or Stormsurges with my friends because they outright refuse to play against them. I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.
That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.
... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.
That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.
The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels
... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.
That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.
The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels
How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.
... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.
That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.
The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels
How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.
Competitive in terms of winning a tournament? then yes.
Competitive in terms of being able to win at your local club? then no.
An Eldar list with no wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents, or wraithguard vs a tau list with no stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, or ghost keel.
Elder still have swooping hawks, war walkers, warp spiders, and fire dragons. All of which are still amazing.
My point is, you can still make great elder lists even ignoring the few OP units. Tau cannot which i do not like.
... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.
That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.
The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels
How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.
Competitive in terms of winning a tournament? then yes.
Competitive in terms of being able to win at your local club? then no.
An Eldar list with no wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents, or wraithguard vs a tau list with no stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, or ghost keel.
Elder still have swooping hawks, war walkers, warp spiders, and fire dragons. All of which are still amazing.
My point is, you can still make great elder lists even ignoring the few OP units. Tau cannot which i do not like.
That's because we have units; i.e. the battlesuit, that can fill very different roles based upon weapon selection, the Eldar do not have such luxury. I do agree that a Tau list will be monochromatic without our MCs, but you can still build an effective list out of Battlesuits and our new Breachers.
... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.
Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.
That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.
The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels
How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.
Competitive in terms of winning a tournament? then yes.
Competitive in terms of being able to win at your local club? then no.
An Eldar list with no wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents, or wraithguard vs a tau list with no stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, or ghost keel.
Elder still have swooping hawks, war walkers, warp spiders, and fire dragons. All of which are still amazing.
My point is, you can still make great elder lists even ignoring the few OP units. Tau cannot which i do not like.
That's because we have units; i.e. the battlesuit, that can fill very different roles based upon weapon selection, the Eldar do not have such luxury. I do agree that a Tau list will be monochromatic without our MCs, but you can still build an effective list out of Battlesuits and our new Breachers.
I wasn't really meaning we wouldn't have any way at all of making a good list, I meant that the way our codex is, there is very little room for variety to make a semi-competative list compared to some other armies. I was really hoping they would have buffed some of our worse units to make them actually viable (which I do not understand why they wouldn't... as making better internal balance by buffing weak units means more of those units will sell)
I figure having the blast Interceptors and 12 shots at Flyers is a good combo. I like the Stimulant Injectors, but they're pretty expensive, maybe not on all of them?
I figure having the blast Interceptors and 12 shots at Flyers is a good combo. I like the Stimulant Injectors, but they're pretty expensive, maybe not on all of them?
Few things.
1.) You really want a EWO along with the VT. That way you can shoot the flyer the turn it comes on the board.
2.) In a riptide wing, stimulant injectors have less value as one of the main reasons to take it is due to failed nova reactor rolls, which the riptide wing can reroll
3.) Advanced Targeting System is great with HBC as rolls of 6 are both precision shots and rending. This way you can pick out specific models in a squad (like special weapons or IC) and ignore their armor save, all for 3 points.
Stims on an HBC even in the formation are very, very crucial. HBC riptides take a lot more damage than Iontides both because of the mass of Gets Hot, required Nova tests, but also because they sit closer than Iontides.
The stims on the Iontides could be dropped to shave points, since its not AS crucial, but if you arent stressed for points i'd keep them. I usually dont even fill that 2nd support slot if i opt out of stims because nothing else really works (cant precision shot a blast and its alone so no Targetlock requirement)
It might not be as bad in the Riptide wing, but ive ran the ECPA Bursttide a few times and he still takes a ton of self-inflicted damage. Stims are so mandatory on him imo.
Vineheart01 wrote: Stims on an HBC even in the formation are very, very crucial. HBC riptides take a lot more damage than Iontides both because of the mass of Gets Hot, required Nova tests, but also because they sit closer than Iontides.
The stims on the Iontides could be dropped to shave points, since its not AS crucial, but if you arent stressed for points i'd keep them. I usually dont even fill that 2nd support slot if i opt out of stims because nothing else really works (cant precision shot a blast and its alone so no Targetlock requirement)
It might not be as bad in the Riptide wing, but ive ran the ECPA Bursttide a few times and he still takes a ton of self-inflicted damage. Stims are so mandatory on him imo.
Or you can boost your BS to 6 which allows you to reroll 1's to hit.
Never underestimate the HBC while Nova Charged. I recommend two of them.
Yeah this is 
what an alpha strike. And your extremely durable. People giving this formation 
