BoomWolf wrote:
Never put a Dpod on a tetra though, a 15 point upgrade to give +1 saves for a model that costs only 35 points to begin with is absurd. save the points and buy more tetras.

Normally I would agree, but when coupled with the Ghostkeel Wing and assuming a base 4+ cover save, with out Jinking and before modifiers, you are doubling the hull points that are needed to take the lead Tetra down (barring an Explodes! result). Going from 6HP needed to down the first one to 12HP is a big jump for less than half the cost of the added Tetra, who will also effectively add an other 6HP to the unit (and add more markers in the process). The other gamble is that the added Tetra and the original lead Tetra (combined 12 HP with 4+ cover and Stealth) will take a potential 4 rolls on vehicle damage; the single lead Tetra with a Disruption Pod only ever needs to roll twice. This cuts the chance of an Explodes! result down as well.
I would never have tried it (heck I can't even justify spending for Sensor Spines on these guys) but recently I happened to be running two 4 Tetra units already with a Y'vahra in FA. I couldn't add more, without going double CAD, and I already had a Ghostkeel Wing and (playing in ITC rules with only 3 Detachments) would have had to drop my Culexus and pay a CAD tax to do so. Math and Force Org reasons aside, the Disruption Pop did another thing that made a huge difference: it gave me a specific morale-deflating answer to my opponents question "What save do you Markerlights have?". 2+ is not what they want to hear, even if it is only one Tetra that gets it. When they realize it will, most likely, take 9 Scatbikes to down that one lead skimmer, they rethink putting their firepower there, which can confuse target priority and generate a bad decision.

TLDR: For five points less than an additional Tetra, I can give two Tetra Squadrons the durability equivalent to an added Tetra each, while rolling fewer times on the Vehicle Damage table. This only works with the Ghostkeel Wing in play.

Tetras are definitely excellent, there's no doubt about it. I feel like any time you can throw a functional armored shell on the table for that cheap, it's got to be worthwhile, right? With a 3+ jink save, that's doubly true. I don't know that I'd bother with d-pods on them, though. It seems like it might be kind of hard to keep them within that 12" bubble of 2 Keels.

On a related note, I find that the GKW effectively renders your marker drones invulnerable. With jink and GtG, they always have access to a 2+ cover save in the open. Unless your opponent is rocking some Wyverns and/or Thunderfires, he's probably not going to waste time shooting at 14-pt models with that high of a save.

In my list, I'm really trying to get the most out of Breachers, and surrounding them with 2+ Devilfish hulls - of which I'm currently running 5 - is massively frustrating for opponents. Yeah, I'm dumping 450 pts into relatively inert units, but I've had great luck tank shocking things into bad positions and walling off my forces so that the 'Fish are the only visible targets. (Note that a Devilfish on a flying stand completely obscures a Ghostkeel!) It's kind of a touchy army to play, since you can fairly easily get out of position and lose your awesome cover save, but if you can pay attention to your spacing, it's a deceptively strong list. I don't know that it'd fare incredibly well against mega-fast close combat armies, but you'd still definitely do some big damage with your Breacher drop before getting ravaged. I'll have to try it out.

FAQ says you cant jink and GTG with the same unit.

MilkmanAl wrote:
It seems like it might be kind of hard to keep them within that 12" bubble of 2 Keels.

With 4" coherency and 12" move, I find the opposite is true.

MilkmanAl wrote:
On a related note, I find that the GKW effectively renders your marker drones invulnerable. With jink and GtG, they always have access to a 2+ cover save in the open.

Unfornunatly my FLGS uses the the new GW FAQ in addition to the ITC rules so no more Jink and Go to Ground for me! Before that, and with Jinking Drones in general, my opponents seemed content to force a Jink to get the subsequent Snapshooting Markerlights. I've been trying new setups with the goal to avoid Jinking with any of my Markerlights. However, combined with two chances to get Conqueror of Cities or Night Attacker on the Strategic table, Stealth & Shrouded on any Markerlight platform is great. Even if it's just first turn with Night Fighting, avoiding as much damage that turn (especially if you go second) is critical.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Unless your opponent is rocking some Wyverns and/or Thunderfires, he's probably not going to waste time shooting at 14-pt models with that high of a save.

Do you run your Drone Net 4x4 or otherwise? I have only used it with min squads, and found my opponents would still go after them with a 2+ cover save, just to take one out and force the Leadership Test. Three squads of 5 Drones, and one of 4 for a Commander to join would help that though. Then they have to nail two, which would be less tempting. . .I'll have to try that out next time I run the Net.
On Wyverns, another plus for the Tetra is Glancing on 6's with no Shred rerolls. Even though the Drones still have their armor save, the sheer number of wounds is rough for any infantry. The first time I ran into Wyverns, I had no Idea what they could do, and my whole army got rocked real hard.

MilkmanAl wrote:
In my list, I'm really trying to get the most out of Breachers, and surrounding them with 2+ Devilfish hulls - of which I'm currently running 5 - is massively frustrating for opponents.

I could see that also!

MilkmanAl wrote:
Yeah, I'm dumping 450 pts into relatively inert units, but I've had great luck tank shocking things into bad positions and walling off my forces so that the 'Fish are the only visible targets. (Note that a Devilfish on a flying stand completely obscures a Ghostkeel!) It's kind of a touchy army to play, since you can fairly easily get out of position and lose your awesome cover save, but if you can pay attention to your spacing, it's a deceptively strong list. I don't know that it'd fare incredibly well against mega-fast close combat armies, but you'd still definitely do some big damage with your Breacher drop before getting ravaged.

That sounds real enjoyable, I have to try some Devilfish out. I think pushing around Lines of sight and obscuring Charge lanes can be invaluable, and buy precious time. I would probably just take a Dedicated Transport or two for some Breachers (that I don't have yet, I'll have to start with a Strike Team), just because with the GW Draft FAQ in play for me, the Breachers would be snapfireing subsequently Disembarking after a Jink. But 2+ Cover Obsec AV12 that no one wants to spend time getting through sounds very useful.

Thanks for the tips! If you have or find any more good combos with the Ghostkeel Wing, I'd love to hear about them.

I must have missed the no jink/GtG combo. Bummer. :(

Also, I do typically have 5 drones in a unit to prevent leadership nonsense. That is, I try to run 4x5 Marker Drones in the Drone Net. Snapfiring markers is annoying but not as annoying as watching drones eat your firepower!

As for other GKW uses, I honestly am a bit stumped. Our vehicles are a bit on the rubbish side, as a whole, so the d-pod/jink thing is of somewhat limited use. If our flyers weren't so god-awful, maybe you could try making some use of their formations? You could possibly use the GKW to keep the Pathfinders from a Ranged Support Cadre alive better, too. That's about all I have.

Here's my revised 1850 pure comp list. Critique/Comments/Concerns/Repeats?

Hunter Contingent

Hunter Cadre (1058)

Command-
Commander (128)
-2x Missile Pod
-Target Light
-Drone Controller

Troops-
5x Strikers (45)
5x Strikers (45)
5x Strikers (45)

Elites-
Riptide (225)
-Ion Accelerator
-Stimms
-EWO

Riptide (225)
-Ion Accelerator
-Stimms
-EWO

Crisis Suit (62)
-1x Fusion
-1x TL Fusion

Fast Attack-
Drone Squadron (60)
-5x Markers

Drone Squadron (60)
-5x Markers

5x Pathfinders (55)

Heavy-
2x Broadside (170)
-2x HYMP
-2x Velocity Trackers

Optimized Stealth Cadre (322)

Ghostkeel (142)
-Ion Raker
-Fusion Blasters
-Advanced Targeting System

Stealth Suits (90)

Stealth Suits (90)

Combined Arms Detachment - Codex:Tau Empire (405)
HQ-
Ethereal (50)

Troops-
5x Strikers (45)
5x Strikers (45)

Fast Attack-
Y'Vahra (265)
-Stimms

Hunter Contingent vs Dawn Blade Contingent

Which one is better?

I am leaning towards the Dawn Blade because I like the Riptide Formation and the Drone-Network Formation but I am not sure what about you?

I guess it depends on the list style. If you play MSU the hunter contingent will be the better choice, because sharing MLs is great.

As for the dawn blade... i don't know why to take it. May be if i take a lot of sniper drones the command benefit can come in handy. But usually i prefer a normal FSE CAD + Riptide Wing or Drone net.

The DBC is nice because you essentially auto-delete a unit each turn. Tau have plenty of ways to get things to hit - marker lights, twin-linked things, fire volume, etc. - but few tricks with wounding or armor penetration. Imagine Broadsides from a Ranged Support Cadre unloading on your pseudo-Doomed target. That's a LOT of very reliable firepower! I also think it'd be nice to use with some deep-striking Crisis Suits to erase a high-priority target. I actually think the DBC is the superior choice, overall. Sharing marker lights and an extra BS is definitely nice, but it requires a lot more maneuvering to use.

 CKO wrote:
Hunter Contingent vs Dawn Blade Contingent

Which one is better?

Competitively: I have trouble with this question because I always have to compare each to a CAD as well. Not just the standard 'ObSec vs Combi-Detachment Bonus' conversation, but the fact that we have some seriously killer FW units that really shine on the board, and the Riptide Wing can't be taken in either one. You can always take 'Formations on the Side' or an allied CAD, but the nature of either Combi-Detachment gets weaker for each point spent outside of it. Without running a Formation combo like the Firestream Wing/Drone-Net, I would have to go with the Dawnblade. The MSU ability of the Hunter Contingent is made largely irrelevant with out ObSec, our larger threats are still single high value units (Stormsurge, Riptide) or big squads (Crisis Suits w/Buff SigSys). MSU would be great for Markerlight sources, keeping them all from being knocked out by on or two great anti-infantry or Cover Ignoring attacks; but you really only have Pathfinders and Drones to spam in either Combi-Detachment. Pathfinders are terrible Markerlight sources (with one or two exceptions), and if you want to spam drones, you want the Dawnblade. The ability to take the Drone-Net as an Aux choice is huge. Intercepting BS3 Markerlights are amazing and fix two central problems of EWO spam: 1) AP2 Large Blasts can now Ignore Cover, 2) High rate-of-fire units with high AP weapons are not stuck at BS3, and can get the volume of wounds they need to make a big difference.

Coordinated Firepower vs The Killing Blow is really, to me, a matter of preference. Both are great, but I think Coordinated Firepower is easier to use and take full advantage of. The Killing Blow is awesome too, but requires a significant amount of planning and maneuvering to get the most impact. I have to admit, it's also easy to forget to use every round, until you have used it for a few games. I love me some Kroot, so rerolling Sniper wounds is a winner for me in the Dawnblade. Generally I find the Dawnblade better for infantry due to the lower Strength weaponry benefiting more from the Reroll of wounds. The Hunter Contingent helps my High Strength shots land more consistently, even once Markerlights get scarce, and they usually wound on 1s already. There are specific match-ups that one or the other is better against. Wraithknights hate the Dawnblade, Deathstars dislike the Hunter Contingent, but Gladius couldn't usually care less.

Casually:They both rock. When you aren't trying to break open a Deathstar or take down ScatterSpam or demolish a whole Knightly House, round after round, you can't go wrong with either the Hunter Contingent or Dawnblade! Both are flexible in terms of unit selection, allow you to make everything you bring better, and offer more fun and fluff to any list. I still will take the Dawnblade in this instance, just because I can get away with only one ECPA Riptide and just field fun stuff. The Ranged Support Cadre is one of the only ways I can stomach Pathfinders, and they are so good in that Formation I kitbashed and painted three squads just for that purpose (and I LOATHE Pathfinders, I am the Bizarro Jancoran when it comes to these points wasting, bulls-eye carrying, walking corpses). You can also get some Pseudo-Coordinated Firepower in the Dawnblade if you want to use the Firebase Support Cadre. Once FW drops IA16 (and we see the 'Final Form' of the Y'vahra, and maybe a buff to the R'varna), they will also hopefully give us some access to FW in the Combi-Detachments. At that point I expect we will see many more seriously competitive Tau lists using them regularly.

I think Killing blow has the most potential though. hen you MUST kill something ands the markerlights have all gone out...

So on that note... is the Dawnblade Contingent require you to be a Farsight Enclave force? Does it also require you to take The Eight?

I'm not a fan of Farsight quite frankly and would rather be the traditional Empire but I find it annoying I wouldn't really be able to use the DBC from what I'm reading.

Dont have to take Farsight OR the 8 anymore

Well that's a plus, I'd still have to take the silly bonding knife thing and use all the FE additonal rules correct?

I suppose it makes it a distinguishing feature but I doubt the Tau Empire forgot how to use killing blow tactics and likely a commander is still using them -.-.

What is your opinion on the new Barracuda? I'm looking to run it because it's a badass shark of the skies, and my loadout will likely be Barracuda Ion Cannon, 2x Auto-Targetting Cyclic Ion, and 2-4x Seeker Missiles.
The Railgun would be cool because it reminds me of the tank-killing Stukas with 37mm cannons on them, but sadly it doesn't seem too too good to me.

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Well that's a plus, I'd still have to take the silly bonding knife thing and use all the FE additonal rules correct?

I suppose it makes it a distinguishing feature but I doubt the Tau Empire forgot how to use killing blow tactics and likely a commander is still using them -.-.

Bonding knife is important for ghostkeels and Crisis stars. trust me on that point. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Well that's a plus, I'd still have to take the silly bonding knife thing and use all the FE additonal rules correct?

I suppose it makes it a distinguishing feature but I doubt the Tau Empire forgot how to use killing blow tactics and likely a commander is still using them -.-.

Bonding knife is important for ghostkeels and Crisis stars. trust me on that point. Lol.

Lol I guess that's a round-about answer of "yes" to my is that a requirement question.

I currently don't have Ghostkeels or enough crisis for a crisis star though.

well then, time to start saving. hehehe.

 Verviedi wrote:
What is your opinion on the new Barracuda? I'm looking to run it because it's a badass shark of the skies, and my loadout will likely be Barracuda Ion Cannon, 2x Auto-Targetting Cyclic Ion, and 2-4x Seeker Missiles.
The Railgun would be cool because it reminds me of the tank-killing Stukas with 37mm cannons on them, but sadly it doesn't seem too too good to me.

The new barracuda is interesting, especially since it has had it's wing burst cannons upgraded to long barreled versions. The important distinction with the ion cannon, is it cannot overheat (unless I read it incorrectly, that profile is not listed, therefore I am assuming it cannot be used).

I think the two best ways to run it is pure anti infantry (double long barreled burst, heavy burst) or as pure anti tank (railgun, ion on the wings), though I think in most instances the anti infantry option will be more effective (and cheaper).

In a Dawn Blade, is it ever worthwhile to take a Hunter Cadre as the core rather than a Retaliation Cadre? I have enough models to run it with the Hunter Cadre, but to make a decent DBC with the Retaliation Cadre I would need to come up with a few more suits. Only reason I can see to take Hunter Cadre as core would be because its the only way to get a Stormsurge into a DBC.

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I ran into a DA/SW/DA Conclave star with Azrael + Ezekiel. Any pointers on how to defeat this, other than going first and nuking the important characters?

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I ran into a DA/SW/DA Conclave star with Azrael + Ezekiel. Any pointers on how to defeat this, other than going first and nuking the important characters?

We talking ITC or uninhibited star?

ITC, heels planted surge will do work with the S10 blasts. Ripwing with Ion will do work with double shot S8 blasts, I managed to remove one in 2 turns with a ripwing and 27 marker drones with ethereal. Used snipers first to clear as many dogs as possible, and precision onto characters. Double shot tides turn 1 with large blasts, inflicted something like 35 ap 2 wounds in the first go.

Was funny to see his face when every sniper unit fired 27 shots at BS5

Point is, there are ways to deal with it, especially since it is usually all eggs in one basket. I have a weight of fire list that has 3 units of breachers in fishes, 3 units of sniper drones, havent tried it on that bomb yet, but I did manage to kill 2 surges and 2 riptides in a single go... was quite amusing.

Bubble wrap your key units, shoot it to crap, spread out a lot, the usual tactics to avoid the bombs. Going first def helps because powers arent in effect, but if you go second it isnt the end of the world. Also, go for his backfield (drop suits and the like) as he will have to make a choice to come at you or stay at home with a few things, diminishing the strength of the unit.

It is a huge pain, I agree, but manageable. I mean, surge in combat can also be used as a stop gap, but honestly, if you have 1-2 surges, plant heels and marker away and just lay into him with multiple S10 blasts, D missiles, and a metric crapton of S5

 gameandwatch wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I ran into a DA/SW/DA Conclave star with Azrael + Ezekiel. Any pointers on how to defeat this, other than going first and nuking the important characters?

We talking ITC or uninhibited star?

ITC, heels planted surge will do work with the S10 blasts. Ripwing with Ion will do work with double shot S8 blasts, I managed to remove one in 2 turns with a ripwing and 27 marker drones with ethereal. Used snipers first to clear as many dogs as possible, and precision onto characters. Double shot tides turn 1 with large blasts, inflicted something like 35 ap 2 wounds in the first go.

Was funny to see his face when every sniper unit fired 27 shots at BS5

Point is, there are ways to deal with it, especially since it is usually all eggs in one basket. I have a weight of fire list that has 3 units of breachers in fishes, 3 units of sniper drones, havent tried it on that bomb yet, but I did manage to kill 2 surges and 2 riptides in a single go... was quite amusing.

Bubble wrap your key units, shoot it to crap, spread out a lot, the usual tactics to avoid the bombs. Going first def helps because powers arent in effect, but if you go second it isnt the end of the world. Also, go for his backfield (drop suits and the like) as he will have to make a choice to come at you or stay at home with a few things, diminishing the strength of the unit.

It is a huge pain, I agree, but manageable. I mean, surge in combat can also be used as a stop gap, but honestly, if you have 1-2 surges, plant heels and marker away and just lay into him with multiple S10 blasts, D missiles, and a metric crapton of S5

Well it was ITC. He rolled Invis and Veil and it was over before it started.

 thejughead wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but I ran into a DA/SW/DA Conclave star with Azrael + Ezekiel. Any pointers on how to defeat this, other than going first and nuking the important characters?

We talking ITC or uninhibited star?

ITC, heels planted surge will do work with the S10 blasts. Ripwing with Ion will do work with double shot S8 blasts, I managed to remove one in 2 turns with a ripwing and 27 marker drones with ethereal. Used snipers first to clear as many dogs as possible, and precision onto characters. Double shot tides turn 1 with large blasts, inflicted something like 35 ap 2 wounds in the first go.

Was funny to see his face when every sniper unit fired 27 shots at BS5

Point is, there are ways to deal with it, especially since it is usually all eggs in one basket. I have a weight of fire list that has 3 units of breachers in fishes, 3 units of sniper drones, havent tried it on that bomb yet, but I did manage to kill 2 surges and 2 riptides in a single go... was quite amusing.

Bubble wrap your key units, shoot it to crap, spread out a lot, the usual tactics to avoid the bombs. Going first def helps because powers arent in effect, but if you go second it isnt the end of the world. Also, go for his backfield (drop suits and the like) as he will have to make a choice to come at you or stay at home with a few things, diminishing the strength of the unit.

It is a huge pain, I agree, but manageable. I mean, surge in combat can also be used as a stop gap, but honestly, if you have 1-2 surges, plant heels and marker away and just lay into him with multiple S10 blasts, D missiles, and a metric crapton of S5

Well it was ITC. He rolled Invis and Veil and it was over before it started.

Gotta love the game-breaking wombo combos...

Has anyone considered combining a Crisis bomb with multiple Stomrsurges? By my count, you can get a kitted-out 7-man bomb with buffmander and Shadowsun plus 2 Surges and a culexus in 1850. There's room for 9 marker drones in the bomb for Surge support. You may struggle in objective-heavy missions, but you'd be exceptionally mobile and powerful.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Has anyone considered combining a Crisis bomb with multiple Stomrsurges? By my count, you can get a kitted-out 7-man bomb with buffmander and Shadowsun plus 2 Surges and a culexus in 1850. There's room for 9 marker drones in the bomb for Surge support. You may struggle in objective-heavy missions, but you'd be exceptionally mobile and powerful.

I've gone a slighty different route with 2 CADs, max Mark'O commanders, 3 each Flamer Monats, a squad of 2 Surges, and a Drone-Net. Gives me 20 BS5 markerlights every turn, 6 ObSec holders, and 2 aggressive D-Shotguns.

SJ

I run the crisis *star* (not a real deathstar imo..), the optimized stealth cadre (with all 3 Ghostkeels) & 3 skyrays, which I may switch out soon for a marker net and some other stuff. Similar idea, pretty good bully list, but has some issues. The culexus may help with the anti psyker and surges with stomp, but I find it hard to cover all the bases with Tau.

I was off playing Dungeons and Dragons during the last Tau update, and I'm only recently catching up to the additions from that codex. I'm curious why I don't hear more about people using the Tau KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour. The stats look amazing. Is it just the cost, or is there something else I'm missing ?

The model looks AMAZING !!


Every year I treat myself to something nice for my birthday. This year I was thinking about treating myself, and the greater good, to a set of Supremacy Armor.

I've been away a while too; but from what I understand most events either ban them or change the rules for D to the point where it's not so amazing.

Thank you for the input.

I wasn't even thinking about the D

Pulse ordnance multi-driver
-- Pattern bombardment 12"-120" S8 AP3 Apocalyptic Barrage (3), Pinning, No Cover Saves

Tri-axis ion cannon x2
--Standard 60" S7 AP3 Heavy 6
--Coherent beam 60" S9 AP2 Heavy 3

Reaching out and murdering enemy forces, for the greater good, from across the table, every turn.

It might even be less killy than 2 or 3 Riptides, but it's sure to attract a hell of a lot of enemy fire, freeing up your other forces to do their jobs.

I was thinking about rebuilding my Tau collection around a core of the Supremacy Suit, a Stormsurge, and a Riptide.

In Itc events it cost to many points for you to play it, or something of that nature. It looks amazing though

How do you guys feel about this small article I wrote about the stormsurge?

The Stormsurge can be equip with a monstrous str 10 ap 2 large blast template called the Pulse Driver Cannon. Or it can have a unique instrument of destruction called the Pulse Blastcannon that can become str D if the enemy is close enough! With their anchors they can shoot one of these weapons twice, both are great but which one is better to you?

Personally, I like the blastcannon which if I am not mistaken its considered the weaker option for obvious reasons. Two long range str 10 ap 2 large blast templates is something to fear especially when it has ignore cover due to marker lights but its not as good as the blast cannon. When I can afford mine I will have it magnetized and occasionally use the Driver Cannon, thats why I used the emoji because you none Tau players should be jealous and I am not saying its bad I just think the blastcannon is better 60% of the time.

Most people like the driver cannon over the blastcannon because if you are fighting the traditional way and most effective way with Tau you stay away from the enemy, and thats why the blast cannon is better! The closer they get the more dangerous this weapon becomes. Four str d shots with ignore cover bs 5 is scary to everything in the game even the wraith knight is scared to end its movement 9 inches away from a pulse blastcannon. In my mind I hear myself saying in an arrogant voice, "Thats why you stay 10 inches away from it before you charge it, OBVIOUSLY"!

I than respond to my voice,"Are you going to choose to stay further away from my gun line? If so thank you, for the extra turn of shooting and fyi my stormsurge is pulling up the anchors and now it is over 20 inches away from you or maybe closer if I feel like stomping you to death"!

My opponent might choose to stay away from me because he is afraid of 4 str D shots which if all of them hit they have a 51% chance of rolling a 6 and we all know what happens when you roll a 6 on the str D chart! People should and will fear the 51% chance and the other units around your Stormsurge will be safer because of this fear.

"The Blastcannon is amazing when in str D range but that rarely happens", this voice has a good point. The weapon potency at the other ranges are still very good in my opinion. If you haven't noticed I talk to myself and I ask myself 3 questions when I am determining if a 40k weapon is good, the first one is does it hit the target accurately? Secondly, does it hurt the target easily? Lastly and most importantly does it ignore a basic Space Marine armor save? So to me the Pulse Blastcannon is a good weapon against units within 20 inches. 4 str 10 ap 3 small blast templates is good, no feel no pain, 2+ to wound, instant death to most things, no armor save for most thingsI "Still not ap 2 and its small blast", this voice points out the obvious stuff. The voice is correct and I will not argue against it between 10-20 inches the driver cannon is better!

Between 20-30 inches the Blastcannon is at its best, despite not passing my 40k weapon test! It doesn't pass my test of being good because I created my test based off of averages and at this range the blastcannon is what we people who like stats call an anomaly! The funny part about the blastcannon at this range is that its good because as an anomaly it forces the law of averages to work!

Four str 9 large blast templates on one unit will force your opponent to roll so many dices that the law of averages will happen and you will like the results. Sometimes anomalies happens and 5 terminators die instead of 2 when you roll 12 dice! At that range it synergizes with the stormsurge's other weapons, 8d6 str 5 attacks combine with 4 large blast str 9 templates will force a lot of saves. Now, Ethereal Kenpachi who is the pupil of Aun'va will help you fear the str 9 large blast template and help you realize why you should join the Greater Good! I didn't write that last sentence sometimes the voice can take control of me don't worry about it though!

Yes, you should worry and I will explain, typically Commander Recardo uses 2 marker light hits to boast his stormsurge bs up to 5, because your armor save is better than your cover save he use the two marker lights that is usually reserve of stripping you of your futile cover to increase our glorious warriors bs up to 7 now the template will not scatter on an average dice roll. I favor Kauyon over Mont'Ka and as a result of this Commander Recardo uses a technique called coordinated firepower. Your army is no longer alive which is proof of its power but because Astartes are supposedly on the way you resist. Can't you see its futile with this technique the stormsurge's bs is up to 8 at worse it will scatter 4 inches and you must add the 10 str 5 shots and 4 str 7 shots from our brave fire warrior squads. Let me give you an estimation of our devastation because we have face your armored warriors before!

Damn, lost control again I am back lets be conservative and say the Driver Cannon template covers 4 models with each hit. With 4 templates you get 16 hits that wounds on a 2+ which is around 13 saves. The cluster rockets on average should pump out 28 str 5 shots add the pulse rifles your looking at 38 str 5 shots at bs 8 which will on average against a marine forces 22 saves if you add the turrets your looking at 25 saves all of these calculations are conservative estimates but your soldiers deaths are testaments, now do you want to continue to wait for these so called Astartes or join the Greater Good?

Thats why I like the Pulse Blastcannon over the Pulse Driver Cannon but thats just my opinion what is yours?

Never used the stormsurge, so can't really comment too much. Strikes me as a good bullet magnet that also can represent a stomp threat to anything that gets close. Played against it once, was fairly brutal with markerlight support.

Speaking of which, with death from the skies out for a little bit, do people rate the skyray as a bit more important, or does the special rules of the drone formation win out? I'm always on the fence, about using a drone net and having spare points for other toys, or using 3 skyrays. Currently I take the latter, and they do a good job I feel, fairly versatile and tough for their cost.

Flyers are a bit more niche though, either people seem to take none at all, or they take a few.

Firestorm from the ethereal works during your opponent turn because it says player turn. I am trying to think of ways to abuse fire warriors and sniper drones and charging into over 50+ sniper shots and 50+str 5 shots sounds like it hurts because of the extended range of Fire Support using the formation. What do you guys think or know?

I use Aun'Va. A lot.

Firestorm from the ethereal works during your opponent turn because it says player turn. I am trying to think of ways to abuse fire warriors and sniper drones and charging into over 50+ sniper shots and 50+str 5 shots sounds like it hurts because of the extended range of Fire Support using the formation. What do you guys think or know?

I'd imagine your best bet would be to use a Hunter Cadre in some capacity so you can take advantage of the extended Supporting Fire range. That seems like a huge pain to charge through, indeed! That said, I wouldn't plan on your Ethereal party enjoying too much success in a competitive environment. Those extra VPs can really make a huge difference, and without the help of IC rules, they're going to be high priority targets, to say the least.

Back after a long break end of 6th, early 7th. I'm thinking of running a Crisis bomb list, here's the reader's digest version since this isn't the Army List section:

FSE CAD

Buffmander with everything
9x Crisis with double 15 point weapons and TLs
Monat

2x Stormsurge, Shields+EWO

Tau CAD

Shadowsun
Obligatory Troop
Obligatory Troop

1850

1) Can this work without a) marker support for the surges b) gun drones for the bomb, c) much dedicated scoring?

2) If I do run the bomb with or without surges, what's the optimal breakdown of weapons? I was thinking 10x Plasma, 4x Fusion (since Shadowsun is there too), 4x MP

3) How many Gun Drones would you bring along if I ran a list without surges and therefore had points to spare? 20 seems like a lot, but then again they'd be BS5 TL and have the buffmander to take some of the heat while they dakka.

4) Did Obsec make the bomb better? Or does D and the proliferation of ignores cover make it still worse on balance?

less crisis suits inthe star would not hurt you

Would you use that for some marker support for surges? Tetras maybe? If I lost 3 suits I could go something like this in the FA slot:

2 Tetras
2 Tetras
1 Tetra

Unless you have a fluff reason for personally taking the double CAD, Shadowsun can now be taken as part of a farsight detachment.

Drop the two troops in the 2nd CAD, grab some marker drones & controller for the bomb.

EDIT:

This is how I currently run my bomb, pretty much a bully list. I know some people run the buff stuff on a normal suit and just take Shadowsun as the lone HQ, saves a bunch of points, but makes the unit less resilient and more liable to blast weapon sniping. On the other hand, it is a heap of points, that can be used to fill some gaps, like a Culexus. Never tried it myself, so can't comment too much.

Tau Farsight Enclaves CAD


HQ’s

Commander Shadowsun =135pts

Commander W/C&C Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Chip, Iridium Armour, Stimulant Injector, Neuroweb Disrupter, Shield Generator & Vectored Retro-Thrusters =207pts

Troops
9 Crisis Suits =512pts
5 Crisis Suits W/2x Missile Pods, Target Locks & Bonding Knifes
2 Crisis Suits W/2x Plasma Rifles, Target Locks & Bonding Knifes
2 Crisis Suits W/2x Plasma Rifles & Bonding Knifes

Crisis Suit W/Bonding Knife =23pts

Heavy Support

Skyray Gunship W/TL Smart Missile System & Blacksun Filter =116pts

Skyray Gunship W/TL Smart Missile System & Blacksun Filter =116pts

Skyray Gunship W/TL Smart Missile System & Blacksun Filter =116pts

Optimised Stealth Cadre

3 Ghostkeels =445pts
Ghostkeel W/TL Fusion Blaster, Cyclic Ion Raker & Early Warning Override
Ghostkeel W/TL Fusion Blaster, Cyclic Ion Raker, Target Lock & Early Warning Override
Ghostkeel W/TL Fusion Blaster, Cyclic Ion Raker, Target Lock & Early Warning Override

3 StealthSuits =90pts

3 StealthSuits =90pts

Total= 1850pts

I actually proposed a similar list on the previous page, Mr. Shrike. My thought was to use marker drones in the bomb as support for the Stormsurges, but Tetras are certainly a viable alternative. Given that you have such easy access to BS5 marker drones, though, that's sort of hard to pass up. It's also nice for grav protection and ablative wounds for the bomb.

I've been considering the viability of a close combat-oriented unit of battlesuits. Take a Commander, give him Fusion Blades, Iridium Suit, Shield Generator, possibly Stims, but could take Vectored Retro-thrusters instead, and possibly the Onager Gauntlet, just in case the Blades cut out. Give him a unit of Crisis suits or bodyguards with flamers and VRT's. I feel like the Commander has a decent statline for CC, if nothing to write home about. Marines should be wary of him with his S8 AP1 CC attacks.

Shield drone is cheaper than a Shield Generator, and can LO, S! on a 2+.

SJ

After a deeper look I found a formation that I really like its the Ranged Support Cadre.

3xPathfinder Squads
3xBroadside Units

Each marker light from the pathfinder squad has double the value if used by one of the broadside units. The pathfinders also have shrouded and infiltrate as long as they don't move or fire something besides their marker lights! The thing I like the most is that the broadsides can provide overwatch for the pathfinders at any range as long as their weapons are in range! So basically it takes my idea of overwatch from hell to another level!

This is what I am thinking.

3 x 5 Pathfinder squads
3 x 2 Broadsides High Yield Missile Pods Smart Missiles 4xMissile Drones Counter Fire Defense System

The pathfinder squad on average will have 2-3 hits that is enough to make the moving broadsides hit on a 2+ or 4+ and ignore cover. The best part is during overwatch if 1 of those five marker lights hit the broadsides will hit on 3+ because of counter fire defense system and the marker light counting as double! With this formation I basically have mass strength seven covered and because of shrouded and infiltrate the pathfinders are really good!

I need some form of Ap 2 to go with all this dakka, I am thinking riptide wing or warp hunters! What do you guys think?

Whats better Riptide wing vs 3 Warp Hunters?

Warp Hunters have a 36 inch range D3 +1 small blast barrage weapon that is str D with a -1 on the chart but its still str 10! Or it can be a template weapon str D with a -1 on the chart.

What do you tau players think?

 CKO wrote:


What do you tau players think?

Warp Hunters do not = Tau. Therefore I would go with Riptide Wing, but I do not care for running more than one Riptide. I would suggest looking for another alternative. Not sure what. But then again I prefer to run CADs or a well rounded group of units with lots of variety. We have so many cool models that I like to use as many of them as I can.

How do I deal with the 2+ armor save 3+ invulnerable save 2+ feel no pain chapter master? Or thunder wolves those are my two nemesis that I really dislike. Warp Hunters laugh at them and I am finding it hard to find something as effective besides the 400 point tower of doom that is our LOW!

Well, you can get rid of the FNP with double T. Probably he has Eternal Warrior, so you can't insta-gib him, but he'll be restricted to his 3++ most likely (as S10 weapons in Tau are usually AP2 or better).

But yeah, I wouldn't feel bad about taking a Stormsurge, at all, if your opponents are bringing wolfstars or SmashFether Chaptermasters whom I imagine are tanking for Gravcents.

An anchored Pulse Driver Cannon should do the trick.

I've been tinkering with my Crisis bomb/dual SS list and figured I'd post it up for critique. My group is typically pretty competitive (but with beer!), so no worries about curb stomping some hapless fluff list. Accordingly, I'm aiming for as competitive a list as possible.

FSE CAD
Commander – NSJ, Onager, C&CN, PEN, MSSS, iridium, stims, VRT, drone controller – 195
Shadowsun – 135
2x Stormsurge – shield gen, AFP, EWO – 840
7 Crisis – 2 weapons (probably mix of plasma and CIB), TL – 399
9 Marker Drones (wargear for bomb suits)– 108
3xCrisis Suit – 5 flamers total – 91
required bonding knife rituals - 11

Culexus – 140

1850 in total

It's intended to be a hyper-aggressive list with suits and Surges in the opponent's face ASAP. Marker support for SS comes from the BS10 marker drones in the bomb, and while it's certainly possible the bomb will have difficulty seeing juicy targets for both itself and the Surges, I doubt it'll be too huge of an issue. I'm toying with dropping a flamer suit for VT and/or pulse drivers on the Surges. Any thoughts there?

I'm building a similar list for my competitive games, so I haven't actually played it yet. So, take my advice with a grain of salt.

That being said, I wouldn't switch to the pulse driver if you plan on being aggressive with the surges. 1) you need as many scoring Monats as you can squeeze 2) you're not anchoring.

Now, if you want to get VT on one of them as insurance against tyrant spam, et al; then just run 2 of the Monats naked. 7-8 games out of 10 it doesn't matter anyway. They hide more than they shoot. To put it another way, you'll miss the Flamers less than you will the VT if you run into an Air Force.

I don't think you need 9 markers for two surges. Only having one marker source, means they can nuke one target and share the markers.

I'd say the surges combine well with the crisis star, as they carry a good (stomp) combat threat, one issue I have using the OSC & a Crisis star, is that neither like facing very fast & durable assault units. For example, in the case of a chapter master in a command squad, or wolf lord leading thunderwolf Cav, that is a tough unit to deal with. They add in some psychic support, and it is realistically going to take stomps or playing around them. If they have electrodisplacement and you are playing it non nerfed, cry in the corner.

How do you find the culexus? Always tempted by one, but the lack of a delivery mechanism for Tau makes me wary. On the other hand, heavy psychic armies, give me all kinds of trouble.

Actually you need EIGHT maerkerlight hits to make sure your StormSurge acts at maximum usefulness. this requires a fair number of Markerlights to begin the show and is why I attach a Buffmander to my Drone Swarm.

Casualties are a thing as well in 40k; so even if he's got a couple more than necessary, that could mean the surges are operating at max efficiency for longer.

Jancoran wrote:Actually you need EIGHT maerkerlight hits to make sure your StormSurge acts at maximum usefulness. this requires a fair number of Markerlights to begin the show and is why I attach a Buffmander to my Drone Swarm.

The Shrike wrote:Casualties are a thing as well in 40k; so even if he's got a couple more than necessary, that could mean the surges are operating at max efficiency for longer.

What they said, basically. I want to ensure at least 1 Surge gets to blow his load at maximum efficiency, and I plan on using the Drones as grav armor for the bomb (and as otherwise ablative wounds once the Buffmander gets beaten up a little). 9 didn't seem like terrible overkill for those tasks, but if I find myself with a bunch of drones hanging out with nothing to mark, I may reduce the number in favor of another lone Crisis Suit or VT or whatever.

Fair enough! Either way, the list is brutal and should be effective.

Could someone please inform me on how to use a mobile Stormsurge with the Blastcannon? I'd like to try out the stompy Surge.

 Verviedi wrote:
Could someone please inform me on how to use a mobile Stormsurge with the Blastcannon? I'd like to try out the stompy Surge.

Move 12" every turn while shooting at targets, charge the closest target that did not die to shooting, then stomp it to death.

SJ

The trick is to charge things you can stomp to death in 2 assault phases so you can unload your crazy shooting again in your next turn. It seems like a shame to lose the double shooting phase, but the stomps and D shots are a worthy trade.

The best part about the D storm is you are trying to get that 6 either on the d chart or the stomp roll. Either way you are happy with the results. Even if you charge a death star you get your 4+ invulnerable save and 5+ feel no pain save and all you have to do is roll a 6 and bye bye!

Just FYI, I tried out a 1500pt version of the above list yesterday with mixed results. (For reference, it was basically one less Stormsurge and 2 Broadsides instead of a Culexus since I rushed out the door without my assassin.) Despite only having a few units on the board, I used the Crisis bomb poorly and got stuck within charge range of a Knight on turn 2. A couple 6s on stomps and a sweeping advance later, half my army bit the dust. That said, in one turn of shooting, they whittled 3 HP off an Atropos and wiped a unit of Skitarii Infiltrators, so it wasn't a total loss. I'm not sure why I brain farted so hard with their positioning, but I'll clearly have to be way more careful with them next time. On the positive side, the Stormsurge kicked butt all over the board, including finishing off the weakened Atropos and clearing out his numerous Vanguard. I was also impressed with the flamer suits, which managed to notch a few kills in addition to flying madly around the board taking objectives for me. In the end, I pulled out a narrow victory with him having a Knight with 5 HP on the board, while I had 2 flamer suits and a 5-wound Surge. We played an ITC mission, and I edged him out on board control, though if I hadn't gotten myself assaulted, it probably should've been a turn 3 tabling for me.

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

My excuss in not playing Hunter Contingent is that I want to play Mobile Suit GunTau, not Call of DuTau.

Dawn Blade Contingent for Life! #DBCfL

SJ

Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

What is the best form of ap 2?

Crisis suits with plasma rifles
Riptide with ion and plasma rifle
XV109 riptide with plasma flamer
Or Something Else

I tend to lend towards the normal riptide but for the same amount of points how manx crisis suits with plasma riffles can you get, idk what do you guys think?

I mean; the Y'Vahra is the best. Question is, will it still be in a month?

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

I somewhat agree with your main point that Crisis bombs probably are not the most competitive choice, but I do think they're very scary to face. They fare well against many popular deathstars but definitely fall flat against White Scars grav Centurions and their silly cover ignoring. Taking EWO on the bomb is pretty difficult and can limit your options substantially due to the loss of target locks. On my bomb, in particular, it's not even on the radar since the marker lights will be shooting at the primary target, while the suits (probably) go after something else. It's definitely true that a Crisis bomb can't deal with psychic-buffed deathstars very well, but that's true of pretty much any Tau list. Hence the Culexus, which is actually a nice desperation counter-charge unit, I might add. Fluff...meh. I did see the power of the individual suits, though, and I intend to keep using them. Dropping a bunch of flamers on people is a really nice bonus.

As for the marker sources issue, it seems that most competitive players disagree with you. Most lists I've seen from recent large-scale tournaments relied on either a Mark'o and 6-8 drones or a minimal Drone Net of 16 Drones. My list has 9 BS 10 drones, I find that more than sufficient for 2 Stormsurges.

I may revisit a MSU Hunter Contingent, but it honestly seems inferior to a CAD with formation support.

 The Shrike wrote:
Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

I wanted to give the CIB a go, so all 7 suits had 2 of them. I think with 1 Surge, that's a little light on heavy-target busting, but with 2 sets of D missiles racked and ready, I actually think that's going to be a decent configuration. I'll give it a try and let you know!

MilkmanAl wrote:

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

I somewhat agree with your main point that Crisis bombs probably are not the most competitive choice, but I do think they're very scary to face. They fare well against many popular deathstars but definitely fall flat against White Scars grav Centurions and their silly cover ignoring. Taking EWO on the bomb is pretty difficult and can limit your options substantially due to the loss of target locks. On my bomb, in particular, it's not even on the radar since the marker lights will be shooting at the primary target, while the suits (probably) go after something else. It's definitely true that a Crisis bomb can't deal with psychic-buffed deathstars very well, but that's true of pretty much any Tau list. Hence the Culexus, which is actually a nice desperation counter-charge unit, I might add. Fluff...meh. I did see the power of the individual suits, though, and I intend to keep using them. Dropping a bunch of flamers on people is a really nice bonus.

As for the marker sources issue, it seems that most competitive players disagree with you. Most lists I've seen from recent large-scale tournaments relied on either a Mark'o and 6-8 drones or a minimal Drone Net of 16 Drones. My list has 9 BS 10 drones, I find that more than sufficient for 2 Stormsurges.

I may revisit a MSU Hunter Contingent, but it honestly seems inferior to a CAD with formation support.

 The Shrike wrote:
Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

I wanted to give the CIB a go, so all 7 suits had 2 of them. I think with 1 Surge, that's a little light on heavy-target busting, but with 2 sets of D missiles racked and ready, I actually think that's going to be a decent configuration. I'll give it a try and let you know!

Crisis bomb is not scary at all to face for most competitive list. A tau list would have evaporated the bomb with intercepting marker lights and EWO units, Superfriend will laugh and charge the next turn, same with necrons list. Eldar will make the ds zone so unappealing that you are forced to drop to a less optimal zone where most of their core unit is out of your reach. DS means you put a huge amount of fire power on reserve and not attacking first turn. A tau army perform strongest during first two turn. If you cannot eliminate the enemy's pillar by the end of the second turn than the chance of loosing is very very high. With hunter cadre, if i go first, my opponents usually shake my hand on turn two or three after they realize that their army no longer has a core.

regarding the drones, I use 24 drones with mark'o as well. sometimes i use the drone net formation sometimes i don't depending on what i list i forecast the tournament player will bring. 10 drones is just too easy to neutralize for eldar list on their first turn and the other armies can do so on their second turn. Too little drones if you bring stormsurge which need at least 7-8 marker counter to maximize effectiveness of d weapons on first turn. With the trend moving towards assault on arrival, the need for intercepting marker drones is even more important than ever which makes the minimal drone count for future tau list to be at least 16 due to minimal drone net formation requirement. I have had games that i went second and opponent taking out half of my drones which includes killing my mark'o when i was unable to hide him behind los blocking terrain. Mark'o with multiple drones has a big footprint and would not fit in most los blocking cover. multiple unit of four drones on the other hand are fairly easy to hide behind los blocking terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
colexus assasins is a good distraction for competitive opponents. But there are many ways to prevent the assassin from getting into 12 inch range from the psyker. I would rather put the points on marker drones since there are some list that makes the assassin less than useful where else marker drone is always useful no matter what list you are facing.

Who said anything about deep striking the bomb? As you mentioned, deep striking has more than its share of problems for a unit that large, and with Shadowsun at the helm, the unit is more than fast enough to get where it needs to be. There's no reason to forfeit a turn (or more) of ~700 pts of shooting.

10 drones are easy to neutralize on their own, but when they're tanked for by a buffmander, that changes a lot. The cover save doesn't hurt, either. I agree about intercepting marker lights, though. That's tough to give up.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Who said anything about deep striking the bomb? As you mentioned, deep striking has more than its share of problems for a unit that large, and with Shadowsun at the helm, the unit is more than fast enough to get where it needs to be. There's no reason to forfeit a turn (or more) of ~700 pts of shooting.

10 drones are easy to neutralize on their own, but when they're tanked for by a buffmander, that changes a lot. The cover save doesn't hurt, either. I agree about intercepting marker lights, though. That's tough to give up.

Regarding the drones...a buffmander with iridium, feel no pain and energy shield is an extra 90 points. For 90 points you can field extra 6-7 drones which i personally prefer because those drone can be deployed in no LOS zone, helps with MSU and will result in more marker hits. That extra drones may result in one or two extra hit when lighting up invisible superfriend which can make a lot of difference when you can share that with the whole tau army to shoot at the death star. I keep my commander unit as small and cheap as possible since he is ussually a favorite target for experienced players. Small unit means its easier to hide and my army will not be significantly effected by the loss of the commander unit. MSU is the way to go in the current meta....especially for tau army with low ld and no psykic defense.

Starting on the table is as dangerous as deep striking for the crisis bomb. Only the commander can tank damage at a very expensive cost and even then not immune to s10 weaponry. An s10 pie plate will wipe out the crisis bomb in one or two turns. Also, shadowsun are not able to deploy with the crisis bomb during deployment, which means the crisis bomb will hve to rely on normal cover safe if they go second. Very risky to put so much point in such a fragile unit that does not have top line defense against psykic and shooting. Starting on the table also means that you are most likely to be out of range to fire your high ap fusion and plasma during the first turn, which again waste the first two most critical turn for tau player to destroy the enemy's pillar units.

What i am trying to say is that people play crisis bomb for fun and fluff...and make friends. But for competitive players, then the crisis bomb is too unreliable and a risky asset for tournament play.

Given that I'm taking a buffmander anyway (and don't have a shield generator on him), it's actually an extra 40 pts for iridium and FNP. Now, if you want to question the value of taking a 195pt model that does nothing but tank and force multiply, that's a different story, but those two upgrades are definitely worth the cost, in this scenario. I'd get 3 more drones - basically 3 more marker hits - for the cost. Since the only things in the list that need markers are the 2 Surges, I don't know that 12 marker hits is necessary. More drones would be nice, but I feel like the list is already reasonably bare-bones. Most of the upgrades are essential, and cutting suits for drones is inadvisable, given that you either cripple your ability to claim objectives or make your 330pt bomb investment of Shadowsun and buffmander less worthwhile. Sharing marker buffs with the whole army is irrelevant because the Stormsurges ARE the entire army. The bomb doesn't need marker lights.

I don't disagree that MSU is a strong list structure for Tau and perhaps the strongest. However, I think this list is potentially competitive, as well.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Given that I'm taking a buffmander anyway (and don't have a shield generator on him), it's actually an extra 40 pts for iridium and FNP. Now, if you want to question the value of taking a 195pt model that does nothing but tank and force multiply, that's a different story, but those two upgrades are definitely worth the cost, in this scenario. I'd get 3 more drones - basically 3 more marker hits - for the cost. Since the only things in the list that need markers are the 2 Surges, I don't know that 12 marker hits is necessary. More drones would be nice, but I feel like the list is already reasonably bare-bones. Most of the upgrades are essential, and cutting suits for drones is inadvisable, given that you either cripple your ability to claim objectives or make your 330pt bomb investment of Shadowsun and buffmander less worthwhile. Sharing marker buffs with the whole army is irrelevant because the Stormsurges ARE the entire army. The bomb doesn't need marker lights.

I don't disagree that MSU is a strong list structure for Tau and perhaps the strongest. However, I think this list is potentially competitive, as well.

How are you going to fight an invisible superfriend or IK formation list with your list? Or how are you going to fight a Tau hunter contingent list with your list?
Those list are made to shred big units.

A Tau mirror match would definitely be bad for this list. There's entirely too much cover-ignoring stuff, and Stormsurges are the only source of S10 pie plates I can imagine running into with any regularity. Nobody uses Demolishers or Vindicators. If they get the jump on your bomb, you're probably down for the count. That said, everything in the list can target different units with ease, so MSU really isn't a problem. The bomb can reliably wipe just under a unit of Tau per suit per turn with CIBs, assuming you're in range of that many targets, so if you get the chance, you can dish some hurt in a hurry.

Superfriends still isn't a great matchup but isn't as scary. You obviously need to either go first or use the Culexus, but without psychic buffs, the opposing deathstar is in bad shape. You're going to dump a fair amount of wounds into them from the bomb alone (probably around 7-9, depending on what you arm the bomb with) and can kite them fairly effectively with your 18" range and 3d6 assault move. The stormsurges aren't as mobile, but having them in melee stomping away isn't the worst use for them I can think of.

 The Shrike wrote:
I mean; the Y'Vahra is the best. Question is, will it still be in a month?

Whats happening in a month? I apologize for being out of the loop but as a Commander I focus on battles. I am not a member of the earth caste if you would please enlighten me.

The Debate between Commander MilkmanAi and Turtlesoup was/is amazing, but I give the edge to Turtlesoup. First off that doesn't mean MilkmanAI lost as in most good debates both people are right but it is a matter of preference or who is correct at the current time. Example is it right to use an atom bomb on a country most of us will say no but there are some of us who knows that if the conditions are right than yes, but thats another debate!

MilkmanAl wrote:
A Tau mirror match would definitely be bad for this list. There's entirely too much cover-ignoring stuff, and Stormsurges are the only source of S10 pie plates I can imagine running into with any regularity. Nobody uses Demolishers or Vindicators. If they get the jump on your bomb, you're probably down for the count. That said, everything in the list can target different units with ease, so MSU really isn't a problem. The bomb can reliably wipe just under a unit of Tau per suit per turn with CIBs, assuming you're in range of that many targets, so if you get the chance, you can dish some hurt in a hurry.

You start off by saying turtlesoup is right, also in the competitive scene there are things that are just as effective as str 10. Str 10 just flat out gets the job done or you can use law of averages which is force so many saves that you roll 1s. Example scat bikes and warp spiders all hit on 3's or 2's and wounds on 2's some of those wounds are ap 2 and because of the speed of those units you can't tank them properly because the short range of your weapons requires at least 24 inches. Str 10 is everywhere you have str 10 thunder hammers on wolves, you have str d melee attacks from the wraithknight, you have str d warp hunters who can use barrage to ignore your commander's tanking ability, hell the space marine whirlwind that shoots str 8 ap 3 ignore barrage cover shots is scary to the crisis bomb. Yes, the bomb can dish it out but in the current meta it cannot take it and a non-eternal warrior commander is not tough enough!

MilkmanAl wrote:
still isn't a great matchup but isn't as scary. You obviously need to either go first or use the Culexus, but without psychic buffs, the opposing deathstar is in bad shape. You're going to dump a fair amount of wounds into them from the bomb alone (probably around 7-9, depending on what you arm the bomb with) and can kite them fairly effectively with your 18" range and 3d6 assault move. The stormsurges aren't as mobile, but having them in melee stomping away isn't the worst use for them I can think of.

Great points again but you admit in the opening sentence that its not a great match up. Against deathstars we as tau smile unless its that damn chapter master with 2+ feel no pain save than we have a problem! However its just one man on a bike how much damage can he do? Well the answer to a msu list is not much he can only kill 1 or 2 units a turn if you spread out appropriately you should be okay. Meanwhile like soup said we dismantle the rest of his list leaving only his chapter master and the squad he is with but unfortunately for him they can't kill stuff and claim objectives as well. So creating a deathstar to deal with a deathstar with Tau is a trap in my opinion because their deathstars can have psychic buffs. Which is the reason why you bring the assassin excellent list just have some holes but in the world where tau use culexus assassins its impossible not to have matchup problems.

I learned a lot from that conversation don't mind me keep it going I can learn more! Shas'o Emerica Kenpachi is about to drop his list, I request the help of both of you guys because both of you know what the hell your talking about anyway I am out!

I'm not trying to say this is the best list ever. It pretty clearly has huge, glaring flaws. As noted previously, White Scars Grav Cents are basically a hard counter, and more mainstream Tau lists aren't far behind. On the other hand, it's pretty damn good against Eldar and Gladius and, I think, at least serviceable against Thunderwolves and superfriends. Most of what I'm saying is that his suggestions aren't relevant to this list. I'm aware this probably isn't the most dominant choice for a Tau army, but it's fun and can compete with a lot of the heavy hitters out there.

Not to nitpick, but I think you overestimate the awesomeness of S10 melee against this list, simply because if your bomb gets in combat with a nasty melee unit, you've basically already lost. Yeah, you have hit and run, but that assumes your Commander lives through the massive beatdown you're going to endure before even getting the chance to run. In other words, of course S10 thunder hammers are going to wreck your world. You're Tau.

MilkmanAl wrote:

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

I somewhat agree with your main point that Crisis bombs probably are not the most competitive choice, but I do think they're very scary to face. They fare well against many popular deathstars but definitely fall flat against White Scars grav Centurions and their silly cover ignoring. Taking EWO on the bomb is pretty difficult and can limit your options substantially due to the loss of target locks. On my bomb, in particular, it's not even on the radar since the marker lights will be shooting at the primary target, while the suits (probably) go after something else. It's definitely true that a Crisis bomb can't deal with psychic-buffed deathstars very well, but that's true of pretty much any Tau list. Hence the Culexus, which is actually a nice desperation counter-charge unit, I might add. Fluff...meh. I did see the power of the individual suits, though, and I intend to keep using them. Dropping a bunch of flamers on people is a really nice bonus.

As for the marker sources issue, it seems that most competitive players disagree with you. Most lists I've seen from recent large-scale tournaments relied on either a Mark'o and 6-8 drones or a minimal Drone Net of 16 Drones. My list has 9 BS 10 drones, I find that more than sufficient for 2 Stormsurges.

I may revisit a MSU Hunter Contingent, but it honestly seems inferior to a CAD with formation support.

 The Shrike wrote:
Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

I wanted to give the CIB a go, so all 7 suits had 2 of them. I think with 1 Surge, that's a little light on heavy-target busting, but with 2 sets of D missiles racked and ready, I actually think that's going to be a decent configuration. I'll give it a try and let you know!

I beg to differ. Look at the ITC standings. Jeremy V uses a Crisis bomb and has done anything but poorly with it. others have too. I think its the size of the bomb that becomes more debatable than its actual advisability.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Not to nitpick, but I think you overestimate the awesomeness of S10 melee against this list, simply because if your bomb gets in combat with a nasty melee unit, you've basically already lost. Yeah, you have hit and run, but that assumes your Commander lives through the massive beatdown you're going to endure before even getting the chance to run. In other words, of course S10 thunder hammers are going to wreck your world. You're Tau.

I had to read this a couple times to get it, I am a little slow! I hope you are right! I really want to believe that I don't have to worry about str 10 melee because I am recovering from concussions from thunder hammers as we speak!

How many turns do you usually have at shooting these str 10 melee units?

Thunderwolves and bikes usually are on you by turn 2! I am not afraid of them as we have the Greater Good on our side but to simply pretend like it is easily accomplish seems silly to me. I like numbers and I am trying to understand how without the power of a 6 on a d missile or stomp you are dealing with 2+ feel no pain save. I know I am not using the str 10 ap 2 stormsurge is that what you are using and why you have so much confidence against the melee units? Or is it because you use the assassin and can by pass all of the psychic buffs? With the list I am making I fear the 2+ feel no pain chapter master, thunder wolves not as much but if I don't get a 6 that chapter master is going to be on the board for 5-6 turns or however long the game last because statically speaking that thing is a true MARINE!

If they're going directly after your Crisis bomb, you've probably got 2 turns of kiting before they catch you. If they aren't buffed, that's enough time to whittle them down substantially, but even 2-3 surviving Thunderwolves/bike characters/whatever are plenty to essentially wipe your bomb. That's when you start throwing speed bumps in the way as much as you can and maybe even charge your Storsurge(s) in to save the day. Nobody's saying it's easy to do, merely that's what you have to do to live.

I beg to differ. Look at the ITC standings. Jeremy V uses a Crisis bomb and has done anything but poorly with it. others have too. I think its the size of the bomb that becomes more debatable than its actual advisability.

Erm...did you quote the wrong post? I'm totally on board with the Crisis bomb as a viable competitive option. On a loosely-related note, this thread has me conjuring a MSU list using the Infiltration Cadre that'd make you need to change your shorts. I'm admittedly still very skeptical of that formation, but I'm willing to try it out!

edit: Aaaaaand so far it looks something like this:

Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre
Commander – drone controller, target lock, 2 missile pods - 128
Cadre Fireblade – 60
10 Fire Warriors – 90
2x5 Fire Warriors - 90
3x10 Kroot – sniper rounds – 210
Crisis suit – 2 fusions – 52
4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles - 89
Stormsurge – shield gen, AFP, EWO, VT – 440

Infiltration Cadre
3x4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles – 267
2x3 Stealth Suits – 1 fusion, positional relay – 200
Piranha – fusion – 50

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

That's 1900 points, so 50 points need to come out. I could ditch the Fireblade, but under the circumstances, it's definitely nice to have another run/shoot bubble to work with. The double-tap is a nifty bonus, too. I feel like this list is horribly optimized with tons of units I'd pretty much never otherwise use, so someone help me out with the details! I'm a pretty huge fan of the ridiculous tactical flexibility, so this list or whatever it evolves into will probably be something I fool around with at least a little.

MilkmanAl wrote:
A Tau mirror match would definitely be bad for this list. There's entirely too much cover-ignoring stuff, and Stormsurges are the only source of S10 pie plates I can imagine running into with any regularity. Nobody uses Demolishers or Vindicators. If they get the jump on your bomb, you're probably down for the count. That said, everything in the list can target different units with ease, so MSU really isn't a problem. The bomb can reliably wipe just under a unit of Tau per suit per turn with CIBs, assuming you're in range of that many targets, so if you get the chance, you can dish some hurt in a hurry.

Superfriends still isn't a great matchup but isn't as scary. You obviously need to either go first or use the Culexus, but without psychic buffs, the opposing deathstar is in bad shape. You're going to dump a fair amount of wounds into them from the bomb alone (probably around 7-9, depending on what you arm the bomb with) and can kite them fairly effectively with your 18" range and 3d6 assault move. The stormsurges aren't as mobile, but having them in melee stomping away isn't the worst use for them I can think of.

A good list is a list that can handle all competitive list. In a tournament you don't get to choose which list to fight. In my opinion, a good tau list should have the following ability:

1) Surgical strike on turn 1 or at the latest turn 2 to topple enemy's pillar unit. This is where lots of marker light and long distance shooting (and to certain extend, homing missiles for pesky no LOS unit) are needed. This must be done in the first two turn or else our list, especially marker light will die quickly after turn 2. Accuracy and quality of firepower is much more important than firepower saturation, e.g. this is where an Ion tide is much more useful than burst tide.

2) Resilience. This is where MSU and hunter contingent combo solve the problem. This is also the reason why i use at least 20-24 msu marker light sources. MSU and number is the best protection for TAU. You do not need to worry too much about ld, the odd unit that made it into cc and going second.

A good Tau player should exhibit the following characteristic:

1) High strategic acumen: From list building to tactical play, A tau player must be able to build strategically sound list. Be able to look at opponent's list and identify his pillar units (may it be a lowly troops to a scary deathstar). Unlike necron or marine list, a tau list does not have room for mistakes. What seems to be a minor flaw in a list or analysis can result in a total loss for tau player. Our army is not capable of deploying strong pillars

2) Methodical tactical execution: This is mostly about following your pre game analysis and choosing the target priorities in your shooting phase. Target elimination is more important than maximizing damage dealt which mean that you should not be afraid to overkill a unit if that unit is on your top priority list. Sounds easy? but this is in fact a hard thing to do during gameplay due to timing pressure and carelessness. In one gameplay, I usually identified no less than 10 mistakes made by both side. Discipline and focus is a difficult skill to master.

After making a list, ask yourself if your list can handle an IK formation composing of at least 3-4 IK with 3++ invulnerable save. Why IK? because personally that is the list that gave most tournament TAU list a hardtime to fight. Fighting IK will force your list to be mobile, have good MSU and also high surgical strike capability and resilient army. TAU list can of course be configured to kill 4 IK rather easily and that is not the point of this simulation. The goal is to have a tournament all comer list that still can fight 4IK reasonably well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
If they're going directly after your Crisis bomb, you've probably got 2 turns of kiting before they catch you. If they aren't buffed, that's enough time to whittle them down substantially, but even 2-3 surviving Thunderwolves/bike characters/whatever are plenty to essentially wipe your bomb. That's when you start throwing speed bumps in the way as much as you can and maybe even charge your Storsurge(s) in to save the day. Nobody's saying it's easy to do, merely that's what you have to do to live.

I beg to differ. Look at the ITC standings. Jeremy V uses a Crisis bomb and has done anything but poorly with it. others have too. I think its the size of the bomb that becomes more debatable than its actual advisability.

Erm...did you quote the wrong post? I'm totally on board with the Crisis bomb as a viable competitive option. On a loosely-related note, this thread has me conjuring a MSU list using the Infiltration Cadre that'd make you need to change your shorts. I'm admittedly still very skeptical of that formation, but I'm willing to try it out!

edit: Aaaaaand so far it looks something like this:

Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre
Commander – drone controller, target lock, 2 missile pods - 128
Cadre Fireblade – 60
10 Fire Warriors – 90
2x5 Fire Warriors - 90
3x10 Kroot – sniper rounds – 210
Crisis suit – 2 fusions – 52
4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles - 89
Stormsurge – shield gen, AFP, EWO, VT – 440

Infiltration Cadre
3x4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles – 267
2x3 Stealth Suits – 1 fusion, positional relay – 200
Piranha – fusion – 50

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

That's 1900 points, so 50 points need to come out. I could ditch the Fireblade, but under the circumstances, it's definitely nice to have another run/shoot bubble to work with. The double-tap is a nifty bonus, too. I feel like this list is horribly optimized with tons of units I'd pretty much never otherwise use, so someone help me out with the details! I'm a pretty huge fan of the ridiculous tactical flexibility, so this list or whatever it evolves into will probably be something I fool around with at least a little.

The MSU amount is good but this list lacks resilience and surgical strike capability. 30 inch kill range is too short for most surgical strikes. Resilience wise, any opponent's unit shooting at your pathfinders will likely cause it to run or get wiped out entirely, loosing quite a significant proportion of fire power. An army composed entirely of glass canons are no fun to play because it will all be over by turn 3. I suggest you add at least an ethereal in the list to make your infantry less likely to run away. That will make a fun and situational list to play but no where near competitive.

I've heard it said that a competitive Tau list needs to have at least 2-3 of the following: Stormsurges, Y'vahras, Riptide Wing, Drone Net, and Optimized Stealth Cadre. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but in my experience it seems to hold up. Stormsurges are great for providing heavy firepower, Y'vahras are good for assassinating certain key units, Riptide Wing brings lots of firepower, especially on the turn that they pop their Hailfire, Drone Net provides much-needed reliable markerlight support (with Interceptor), and OSC can absolutely wreck any kind of mechanized list or anything that relies on cover saves (looking at you Tyranids, Dark Eldar).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've heard it said that a competitive Tau list needs to have at least 2-3 of the following: Stormsurges, Y'vahras, Riptide Wing, Drone Net, and Optimized Stealth Cadre. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but in my experience it seems to hold up. Stormsurges are great for providing heavy firepower, Y'vahras are good for assassinating certain key units, Riptide Wing brings lots of firepower, especially on the turn that they pop their Hailfire, Drone Net provides much-needed reliable markerlight support (with Interceptor), and OSC can absolutely wreck any kind of mechanized list or anything that relies on cover saves (looking at you Tyranids, Dark Eldar).

Some of those units are in fact components of most competitive list. I would put stormsurge, riptide and drone net as the essential. I don't necessarily agree with riptide wing, Y,vahras and OSC. For Y'vahra I have no comment as i am not a forgeworld unit fan and have never used it before. For riptide wing, I still prefer riptide as part of firebase support cadre for the tank hunter and monster hunter bonus. Riptide being part of hunter contingent is much more useful for surgical strikes and absolutely critical against invisible death star. Stormsurge advantage is its durability and the s10 ap2 long range pie plates. In my games, the d missiles are underperforming most of the time. The OSC's job can be easily replaced by hunter contingent. OSC cost too much, range is too short and too easily neutralized by s10 weaponry. With the trend of assault during arrival, i believe only the drone net formation is an absolute must for tau army no matter how you play tau, because no tau list will stand against cc without huge cost incurred.

I've got a few thoughts on the comments above, but first I'm really curious as to what your list consists of. Would you mind sharing?

Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts

Hunter Cadre

Commander - 113pts
Drone controller, command and control node, counter-fire defense system

Striker x 5 - 45pts
Striker x 5 - 45pts
Striker x 5 - 45pts

Riptide - 190pts
Heavy burst cannon, tl smart missile system, EWO, counter-fire defense system

Stormsurge - 405pts
Pulse driver cannon, tl burst cannon, velocity tracker, EWO

Marker Drone x4 - 56pts

Auxiliary

Firebase support cadre

Riptide - 195pts
Ion Accelerator, tl smart missile system, EWO, counter-fire defense system

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Firebase support cadre

Riptide - 195pts
Ion Accelerator, tl smart missile system, EWO, counter-fire defense system

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Formation

Drone net vx 1-0

Marker drone x5 - 70pts
Marker drone x5 - 70pts
Marker drone x5 - 70pts
Marker drone x5 - 70pts

My list is a very plain hunter contingent list that have a balanced amount of fire power saturation, surgical strike capability and some counter assault capabilities. Commander will always go with the drone net drones and acts as marker light dispenser. Riptides are the main source of mobility to take midfield objectives as well as surgical strikes, strikers are assault screening units, broadsides provides firepower saturation and stormsurge as the surgical strike pillar and anti-air units. All of my models except for the 4 drones and 15 strikers can intercept. 17 units provides descent MSU with no obvious pillars （closest being the markers and stormsurge). Other than strikers and drones, the units responsible for dispensing fire power are generally durable and will not run due to shooting attacks, which provide a reliable and stable gunline. The odd opponent units that is able to make it into assault will face many units overwatch at higher than normal bs. Anti air is primarily the stormsurge providing s10 ap2 pie plates and many s5 hits supported by marker drones that reroll snapshots. The list has decent monster and vehicle fighting capability from the 2 firebase cadre formation. The only weakness to this list is a mirror list.

For what it is worth, from glancing at the Tau ETC lists, Piranha Wing, Riptide Wing, Drone net, Farsight CAD, some mixture of those & a culexus were the common denominators.

In the ITC, i've read that the crisis star & OSC have had success.

I use the OSC & Crisis star more often then not when running Tau, i've had some trouble vs some Eldar & Marine builds, aside from that, I don't think other codexes would regard it as friendly really!

 Bryan01 wrote:
For what it is worth, from glancing at the Tau ETC lists, Piranha Wing, Riptide Wing, Drone net, Farsight CAD, some mixture of those & a culexus were the common denominators.

In the ITC, i've read that the crisis star & OSC have had success.

I use the OSC & Crisis star more often then not when running Tau, i've had some trouble vs some Eldar & Marine builds, aside from that, I don't think other codexes would regard it as friendly really!

OSC is viable and fills its niche if complimented with long range gunlines. OSC is not a good complement to crisis star because both has short range and will have trouble executing precision strikes across the board. Both relies on too much cover save for survivability. OSC, riptide wing + drone net will complement better.

The MSU amount is good but this list lacks resilience and surgical strike capability. 30 inch kill range is too short for most surgical strikes. Resilience wise, any opponent's unit shooting at your pathfinders will likely cause it to run or get wiped out entirely, loosing quite a significant proportion of fire power. An army composed entirely of glass canons are no fun to play because it will all be over by turn 3. I suggest you add at least an ethereal in the list to make your infantry less likely to run away. That will make a fun and situational list to play but no where near competitive.

Agreed on everything except the surgical strike comment. While the list I posted may not be the biggest powerhouse ever to grace the Warhammer community, the one thing it does exceedingly well is surgical strikes. With moderately quick units roaming all over the board and the potential for half of them to come on from any board edge, you can target pretty much anything you want at any time. You may not be able to kill it if it's something gargantuan, but you can damn well shoot at it from any side you please. My brainstorm definitely does not pass your 3-4 IK test. Then again, neither does yours...

At any rate, you've really got my brain churning about Hunter Contingents now. The leadership issue led me back to another unit I don't really like at all: Aun'va. It occurs to me that the good space pope becomes more or less invulnerable to shooting if you attach an iridium commander to him. I doubt that's a competitive thing to do, but it can certainly help stop your dudes from bolting from bolters if you're determined to commit to MSU.

I really like your army a lot, honestly. I don't think you're really getting much out of it being crammed into a Hunter Contingent, though. The FBSCs can fire together for shared marker lights anyway, and you have more than enough drones to compensate for the lost BS. You'd probably get more mileage out of reworking things into a Dawn Blade Contingent and a Riptide Wing.

One of the things I've been mulling is a rework of a list I posted previously that was designed to take advantage of Breachers. Ghostkeel Wing-supported d-pod Devilfish dropping them off into places your opponent doesn't want them is pretty incredible, in my experience. If they could all share marker lights, that'd be totally awesome. I have no idea why I didn't think about this before! I'll slap a list together in a sec.

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts



Stormsurge - 405pts
Pulse driver cannon, tl burst cannon, velocity tracker, EWO

No Invul on the Stormsurge? That's living dangerously.

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts

[List]

My list is a very plain hunter contingent list that have a balanced amount of fire power saturation, surgical strike capability and some counter assault capabilities. Commander will always go with the drone net drones and acts as marker light dispenser. Riptides are the main source of mobility to take midfield objectives as well as surgical strikes, strikers are assault screening units, broadsides provides firepower saturation and stormsurge as the surgical strike pillar and anti-air units. All of my models except for the 4 drones and 15 strikers can intercept. 17 units provides descent MSU with no obvious pillars （closest being the markers and stormsurge). Other than strikers and drones, the units responsible for dispensing fire power are generally durable and will not run due to shooting attacks, which provide a reliable and stable gunline. The odd opponent units that is able to make it into assault will face many units overwatch at higher than normal bs. Anti air is primarily the stormsurge providing s10 ap2 pie plates and many s5 hits supported by marker drones that reroll snapshots. The list has decent monster and vehicle fighting capability from the 2 firebase cadre formation. The only weakness to this list is a mirror list.

Interesting List. I like how you've used 2 FSC to make your whole army very MSU. Hard to focus one thing down without overkill. Also solves some of the awful leadship issues that things like Broadsides suffer from. With 3 Riptides, 4 Broadsides and a Stormsurge, you should have plenty of firepower. And 5 Markerlight source units will allow your MSU to have plenty of ML support.

The main issue I see with the list is capping objectives as your army is fairly static except for your Riptides, which are also important damage sources, so if they move up, they risk getting tied up in combat or picked off. Maybe finding points for a Devilfish or 2 for your Firewarriors? How has your experience been against aggressive armies or things like Battlecompany where you have to commit to contesting objectives or lose maelstrom entirely?

MilkmanAl wrote:

The MSU amount is good but this list lacks resilience and surgical strike capability. 30 inch kill range is too short for most surgical strikes. Resilience wise, any opponent's unit shooting at your pathfinders will likely cause it to run or get wiped out entirely, loosing quite a significant proportion of fire power. An army composed entirely of glass canons are no fun to play because it will all be over by turn 3. I suggest you add at least an ethereal in the list to make your infantry less likely to run away. That will make a fun and situational list to play but no where near competitive.

Agreed on everything except the surgical strike comment. While the list I posted may not be the biggest powerhouse ever to grace the Warhammer community, the one thing it does exceedingly well is surgical strikes. With moderately quick units roaming all over the board and the potential for half of them to come on from any board edge, you can target pretty much anything you want at any time. You may not be able to kill it if it's something gargantuan, but you can damn well shoot at it from any side you please. My brainstorm definitely does not pass your 3-4 IK test. Then again, neither does yours...

At any rate, you've really got my brain churning about Hunter Contingents now. The leadership issue led me back to another unit I don't really like at all: Aun'va. It occurs to me that the good space pope becomes more or less invulnerable to shooting if you attach an iridium commander to him. I doubt that's a competitive thing to do, but it can certainly help stop your dudes from bolting from bolters if you're determined to commit to MSU.

I really like your army a lot, honestly. I don't think you're really getting much out of it being crammed into a Hunter Contingent, though. The FBSCs can fire together for shared marker lights anyway, and you have more than enough drones to compensate for the lost BS. You'd probably get more mileage out of reworking things into a Dawn Blade Contingent and a Riptide Wing.

One of the things I've been mulling is a rework of a list I posted previously that was designed to take advantage of Breachers. Ghostkeel Wing-supported d-pod Devilfish dropping them off into places your opponent doesn't want them is pretty incredible, in my experience. If they could all share marker lights, that'd be totally awesome. I have no idea why I didn't think about this before! I'll slap a list together in a sec.

Actually my list past the the 4 IK test because i defeated one by a huge margin on a tournament. I didn't even roll a 6 on my d weapon on that game and i went second. The key to winning IK with my list is flanking with riptide, split deployment and proper screening unit. I killed two IK by turn three and the rest just don't have enough assault and shooting moves to eliminate my MSU units that is spread out from one corner of the board to the other. It made him choose one side of the board over the other.

I do not think dawn blade is better than hunter contingent for the fact that i would need alot more marker support if i use one. This need is especially glaring when fighting an invisible superfriend which can only be defeated by hunter contingent if using a pure tau list. The problem i have with colexus is because that unit is very situational, great for invisible star but is useless in a list with 4 IKs.

Your list is most likely doing a surgical strike on second turn when playing against experienced player. And you are likely to only do one turn of surgical strike if any before it withers away under the slightest pressure. Against tau list, your list is not likely to enter from reserve unharmed. This is why i do not see your list as being a surgical strike list on an actual game with experienced players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heldericht wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts

[List]

My list is a very plain hunter contingent list that have a balanced amount of fire power saturation, surgical strike capability and some counter assault capabilities. Commander will always go with the drone net drones and acts as marker light dispenser. Riptides are the main source of mobility to take midfield objectives as well as surgical strikes, strikers are assault screening units, broadsides provides firepower saturation and stormsurge as the surgical strike pillar and anti-air units. All of my models except for the 4 drones and 15 strikers can intercept. 17 units provides descent MSU with no obvious pillars （closest being the markers and stormsurge). Other than strikers and drones, the units responsible for dispensing fire power are generally durable and will not run due to shooting attacks, which provide a reliable and stable gunline. The odd opponent units that is able to make it into assault will face many units overwatch at higher than normal bs. Anti air is primarily the stormsurge providing s10 ap2 pie plates and many s5 hits supported by marker drones that reroll snapshots. The list has decent monster and vehicle fighting capability from the 2 firebase cadre formation. The only weakness to this list is a mirror list.

Interesting List. I like how you've used 2 FSC to make your whole army very MSU. Hard to focus one thing down without overkill. Also solves some of the awful leadship issues that things like Broadsides suffer from. With 3 Riptides, 4 Broadsides and a Stormsurge, you should have plenty of firepower. And 5 Markerlight source units will allow your MSU to have plenty of ML support.

The main issue I see with the list is capping objectives as your army is fairly static except for your Riptides, which are also important damage sources, so if they move up, they risk getting tied up in combat or picked off. Maybe finding points for a Devilfish or 2 for your Firewarriors? How has your experience been against aggressive armies or things like Battlecompany where you have to commit to contesting objectives or lose maelstrom entirely?

Mobility problem is a common trait of all tau unit not for the lack of movement in general but for the lack of units that can be in close proximity with and opponent unit without the risk of getting assaulted. Any tau unit cannot sit on an objective as well as marine does and it is done intentionally by the game designer. Devilfish + firewarrior combo is not better than a riptide in term of maintaining mobility while shooting. I would have to sacrifice a significant amount of firepower just to get a devilfish which is also not the most resilient unit. As a tau player, we play the objective game very differently than most list in that we will do mostly objective denial move/shooting rather than objective grabbing. In all of my gameplay i have never lost an objective in my side of the board other than when i am fighting a 3-4 IK list that charge like a bull. And most game play my riptides would be dominating the midfield by turn 3 or even as early as turn two depending on how the opponent deploys his forces. In most cases, I don't even have to worry about objective and worry more about bringing down the opponent's army to a point of hand shake before turn 4 or 5. Usually, i get the hand shake by turn three in my tournament games and some as early as turn two when they find their army without core units. I have never faced a full marine battle company because the players in my area loves their death star and giant walking units like IK and wk. The closest i have had with durable MSU is necron list with lots of necron warriors sitting/advancing on objectives. with this type of list i usually will focus to liberate one side/corner of the board first rather than spreading my fire power all over the map. If I can clear their units from one side of the board early then we have at least equal chance of objective grabbing. the side i cleared is usually the side with most melee oriented units.

Turtlesoup wrote:

Mobility problem is a common trait of all tau unit not for the lack of movement in general but for the lack of units that can be in close proximity with and opponent unit without the risk of getting assaulted. Any tau unit cannot sit on an objective as well as marine does and it is done intentionally by the game designer. Devilfish + firewarrior combo is not better than a riptide in term of maintaining mobility while shooting. I would have to sacrifice a significant amount of firepower just to get a devilfish which is also not the most resilient unit. As a tau player, we play the objective game very differently than most list in that we will do mostly objective denial move/shooting rather than objective grabbing. In all of my gameplay i have never lost an objective in my side of the board other than when i am fighting a 3-4 IK list that charge like a bull. And most game play my riptides would be dominating the midfield by turn 3 or even as early as turn two depending on how the opponent deploys his forces. In most cases, I don't even have to worry about objective and worry more about bringing down the opponent's army to a point of hand shake before turn 4 or 5. Usually, i get the hand shake by turn three in my tournament games and some as early as turn two when they find their army without core units. I have never faced a full marine battle company because the players in my area loves their death star and giant walking units like IK and wk. The closest i have had with durable MSU is necron list with lots of necron warriors sitting/advancing on objectives. with this type of list i usually will focus to liberate one side/corner of the board first rather than spreading my fire power all over the map. If I can clear their units from one side of the board early then we have at least equal chance of objective grabbing. the side i cleared is usually the side with most melee oriented units.

I see. You definitely make some good points, I'll try and test this out. Giving up objectives seems counter intuitive, but I suppose other armies like Renegades already do it in favor of board control on their half and overwhelming firepower. I still feel like MSU might be an issue like an outflanking White Scars battle company. I'll definitely test it at some point and post back.

Thank you for the insights.

How do you guys feel about Broadside spam? It's no secret that they offer impressive firepower per point, and they're featured prominently in a few interesting formations. However, they're essentially static and aren't terribly durable.

My thought is that you could possibly work with the Ranged Support Cadre to make them more mobile since one marker light hit (that counts as double in the formation) brings them back to baseline in terms of hitting things. Yes, Pathfinders are immobile and fairly flimsy even with Shrouded, but that double marker light perk is darn nice. Is it enough to make up for all the things Drone Net Marker Drones do better, though? Would it be better to get multiple Broadsides from other sources (like, say, the relentless ones from a Retaliation Cadre)?

In any event, it seems like hooking them up with tank/monster hunter is a really good idea. Whether that buff should come from a buffmander, the FBSC formation bonus, or the DBC formation bonus is something I'm still pondering.

For instance, try this on for size:

DBC
Hunter Cadre
Commander - 2 missile pods, TL - 120
3x5 FW - 135
2xRiptide - IA, EWO, SMS - 380
Piranha - 40
Stormsurge - pulse driver, shield gen, AFP, EWO - 435

RSC
3x5 Pathfinders - 165
3x1 Broadsides - EWO - 210

RSC
2x5 Pathfinders - 110
4 Pathfinders - 44
3x1 Broadsides - EWO - 210

1849 in total, by my count.

It's definitelyt in keeping with the MSU theme this thread has taken on, and while you don't benefit from the Hunter Contingent bonuses, your units are mostly pretty marker-independent. If you don't need the markers elsewhere - like for your Stormsurge - you can reposition a few of the 'sides as necessary and still have them shoot effectively. The Commander is a bit of a lost puppy in this setup, unfortunately. I'd figured to have him run with the FW to create target priority issues and to keep them extra mobile, but if you guys can think of better uses, I'm all ears. The Piranha will likely be reserved for some objective grabbing and maybe use as a roadblock. Ideally it'd come on the board in a location that allows it to take advantage of the Hunter Cadre bonuses to flat out then shoot something in your opponent's backfield.

 Bach wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts



Stormsurge - 405pts
Pulse driver cannon, tl burst cannon, velocity tracker, EWO

No Invul on the Stormsurge? That's living dangerously.

It depends on how you use your stormsurge. If it is a stationary artillery piece then you don't waste 50pts on invulnerable save when you already get 4+++ cover save most of the time. To date, i have not seen a need for invulnerable save on my stormsurge. But, if you want to send it up field with pulse blast cannon as a midfield mobile artillery, then you will need the invulnerable save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heldericht wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:

Mobility problem is a common trait of all tau unit not for the lack of movement in general but for the lack of units that can be in close proximity with and opponent unit without the risk of getting assaulted. Any tau unit cannot sit on an objective as well as marine does and it is done intentionally by the game designer. Devilfish + firewarrior combo is not better than a riptide in term of maintaining mobility while shooting. I would have to sacrifice a significant amount of firepower just to get a devilfish which is also not the most resilient unit. As a tau player, we play the objective game very differently than most list in that we will do mostly objective denial move/shooting rather than objective grabbing. In all of my gameplay i have never lost an objective in my side of the board other than when i am fighting a 3-4 IK list that charge like a bull. And most game play my riptides would be dominating the midfield by turn 3 or even as early as turn two depending on how the opponent deploys his forces. In most cases, I don't even have to worry about objective and worry more about bringing down the opponent's army to a point of hand shake before turn 4 or 5. Usually, i get the hand shake by turn three in my tournament games and some as early as turn two when they find their army without core units. I have never faced a full marine battle company because the players in my area loves their death star and giant walking units like IK and wk. The closest i have had with durable MSU is necron list with lots of necron warriors sitting/advancing on objectives. with this type of list i usually will focus to liberate one side/corner of the board first rather than spreading my fire power all over the map. If I can clear their units from one side of the board early then we have at least equal chance of objective grabbing. the side i cleared is usually the side with most melee oriented units.

I see. You definitely make some good points, I'll try and test this out. Giving up objectives seems counter intuitive, but I suppose other armies like Renegades already do it in favor of board control on their half and overwhelming firepower. I still feel like MSU might be an issue like an outflanking White Scars battle company. I'll definitely test it at some point and post back.

Thank you for the insights.

i welcome the sight of outflanking army actually, my list is full of EWO MSU will also help with outflanking too as it will screen the assaulting troop. In any case outflanking tau with the current drone net is really not a good idea for the opponent, especially if they do not have the rule to charge unit at the turn they arrive from reserve.

Are Breachers any good? They seem like they would be half decent if you loaded them up in a Devilsfish and took a forward objective. Then again, that seems against the Tau's MO.

MilkmanAl wrote:
How do you guys feel about Broadside spam? It's no secret that they offer impressive firepower per point, and they're featured prominently in a few interesting formations. However, they're essentially static and aren't terribly durable.

My thought is that you could possibly work with the Ranged Support Cadre to make them more mobile since one marker light hit (that counts as double in the formation) brings them back to baseline in terms of hitting things. Yes, Pathfinders are immobile and fairly flimsy even with Shrouded, but that double marker light perk is darn nice. Is it enough to make up for all the things Drone Net Marker Drones do better, though? Would it be better to get multiple Broadsides from other sources (like, say, the relentless ones from a Retaliation Cadre)?

In any event, it seems like hooking them up with tank/monster hunter is a really good idea. Whether that buff should come from a buffmander, the FBSC formation bonus, or the DBC formation bonus is something I'm still pondering.

For instance, try this on for size:

DBC
Hunter Cadre
Commander - 2 missile pods, TL - 120
3x5 FW - 135
2xRiptide - IA, EWO, SMS - 380
Piranha - 40
Stormsurge - pulse driver, shield gen, AFP, EWO - 435

RSC
3x5 Pathfinders - 165
3x1 Broadsides - EWO - 210

RSC
2x5 Pathfinders - 110
4 Pathfinders - 44
3x1 Broadsides - EWO - 210

1849 in total, by my count.

It's definitelyt in keeping with the MSU theme this thread has taken on, and while you don't benefit from the Hunter Contingent bonuses, your units are mostly pretty marker-independent. If you don't need the markers elsewhere - like for your Stormsurge - you can reposition a few of the 'sides as necessary and still have them shoot effectively. The Commander is a bit of a lost puppy in this setup, unfortunately. I'd figured to have him run with the FW to create target priority issues and to keep them extra mobile, but if you guys can think of better uses, I'm all ears. The Piranha will likely be reserved for some objective grabbing and maybe use as a roadblock. Ideally it'd come on the board in a location that allows it to take advantage of the Hunter Cadre bonuses to flat out then shoot something in your opponent's backfield.

Problem with broadside spam is their mobility and the need for them to be deployed in MSU and needing good cover. I field four single model broadsides and i find that a few times i need to snap fire them in order to reposition them. They also move very slow with no jet pack. moving from cover to cover means they need to take multiple dificult terrain test. relying on cover save is another problem. With t4, they are too easily intant killed even with their 2+ armor save. Most of the game, i can't find optimal cover for deployment to maximize their reach on potential target. I employ my broadsides to act as a wall of bullets for charging enemy units. But if i face long range army like IG, eldar or another tau list, then my broadside will likely see underusage due to their limited range.

My recomendation if you want to spam broadside is to put some of them in retaliation cadre so that they can act as an advancing wall of bullets as well as the range support cadres. DBC is actually good for broadside spam as their guns don't hurt heavy target much and need the wound reroll quite often in the current meta of GCs. I know that you put huntre cadre in primarily for the stormsurge, but its not optimal in this case. A broadside spam list with at least 9-12 broadside will have more than plenty of fire power to wipe anything off the board as long as they get to fire their guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Are Breachers any good? They seem like they would be half decent if you loaded them up in a Devilsfish and took a forward objective. Then again, that seems against the Tau's MO.

No. breacher advancing on objective is a misconception for most people. They are meant to flush enemy out, not to hold objectives. No tau infantry unit are good in holding objectives without ethereal support. So your ethereal need to advance with the breacher as well which is too riasky since they will give vp to opponent if they are killed. The only use i see for breachers is on the tidewall counter-attack formation which can double the range of their guns + other bonus. The formation looks descent on paper but is no where near competitive since the tidewall movement is also somewhat limited in actual game play and they are too costly for what they do.But if you want to flush enemy out, the tau codex gives you alot of better options than breachers in devilfish. i.e. riptides and OSC is alot more mobile and survivable, which means they can actually hold objectives descently in most games.

Ah, a shame. They are a cool unit. Thanks for the advice!

Imperial Knights, what is the best way to take them out?

I made a list than I realize, I have no way of dealing with Imperial Knights.

 CKO wrote:
Imperial Knights, what is the best way to take them out?

I made a list than I realize, I have no way of dealing with Imperial Knights.

You attack it from two or more facings with high strength attacks, enough to net 6 hull points. That's how you kill an IK.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Imperial Knights, what is the best way to take them out?

I made a list than I realize, I have no way of dealing with Imperial Knights.

You attack it from two or more facings with high strength attacks, enough to net 6 hull points. That's how you kill an IK.

SJ

Indeed, this, I usually give it a choice between front facing D missiles, or side hitting yvara emp

Sounds like a solid plan to me!

 CKO wrote:
Imperial Knights, what is the best way to take them out?

I made a list than I realize, I have no way of dealing with Imperial Knights.

There are a few ways to dealing with IK, but its generally one of the toughest enemy for competitive tau armies:

1) If you have several mobile units like riptide, you can try to outflank him witht he 4d6 move 3-4 turns consecutively. This way it will allow you to shoot at his soft spots (rear and side armor). I have tried this and it worked well because I always get to wound an IK 2-3 hp per turn due to my 2 riptides being tank hunter from fbc formation.

2) Have lots of stormsurges and hope for a roll of six in the d weapons. Honestly, its kind of a gamble to rely on d too much. I actually like the s10 ap2 pie plates better. Together with outflanking riptides can net you 1 IK per turn

3) FBC broadsides with HYMP. My opponent were mostly scared of them aand thats why he made a bee line towards them first instead of the riptides and stormsurges. With the tankhunter special rule they can put lots of wound on IK. four of these guys can potentially bring down an IK with out invulnerable save per turn, which means any sensible IK player will put his shield towards them. I recommend deploying them in two corners of the map so that half of them can shoot at the soft side or rear armor.

4) Fire warriors with emp granades. Many IK players ignored them until they get in range for their bomb. Not an IK killer, but it can help with taking out a couple of HP when the IK is in charging range.

5) Kill them on overwatch shooting. counter fire defense systems which increase bs to 2 in overwatch. This is handy for overwatching charging IK. If you put them on the buffmander controlling the drones, the marker drones will over watch at bs 2. If you put them on riptides on hunter cadre list, they get to support fire within 12" on bs 2. Together, you might take out 2-3 HP if you still have broadside doing over watch. I killed one of my opponent's IK on overwatch from units positioned in multiple angle and took out his last 2 HP. That is the killing blow to his army and won me the tournament. Don't underestimate the value of good overwatch tactic.

6) recently, it got me thinking into using the firestream formation to impede charging opponents. a bare minimal 160pts on four piranhas will do. This will net you 8 gun drones per turn. IK charge on turn 2-3. so by that time you get 16-24 drones to screen the charge. This will force them to shoot at the drones to clear it or charge them to clear them with stomp attacks. Either ways, they will redirect heavy firepower towards the drones or else they cannot charge. And if they use blast weapons, then they cannot shoot the drones that is 1 inches away from their IK by turn 2, forcing them to use the heavy stubber of charge them. I have not tried this yet, but it might be the only way for a pure tau list to stop a 5 IK list or superfriend death star with invisibility and veil of time.

Turtlesoup wrote:


4) Fire warriors with emp granades. Many IK players ignored them until they get in range for their bomb. Not an IK killer, but it can help with taking out a couple of HP when the IK is in charging range.

I believe an FAQ has ruled you can only have one model use a grenade in the assault phase. So giving Fire Warriors EMP grenades are a waste of points as you only get to use two grenades max per turn (throw one in shooting then use one in HTH).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:


4) Fire warriors with emp granades. Many IK players ignored them until they get in range for their bomb. Not an IK killer, but it can help with taking out a couple of HP when the IK is in charging range.

I believe an FAQ has ruled you can only have one model use a grenade in the assault phase. So giving Fire Warriors EMP grenades are a waste of points as you only get to use two grenades max per turn (throw one in shooting then use one in HTH).

yes i am aware and thats why you only put emp when you have spare points. If taking hunter cadre there is a mandatory 3 units of fire warrior which can be used to screen attacks and can potentially release 3 emp bomb at shooting phase and 3 at assault phase which can potentially take out 1-2 hp of knights. quite good for the investment of 6pts for emp.

that FAQ is not official.

Turtlesoup wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:


4) Fire warriors with emp granades. Many IK players ignored them until they get in range for their bomb. Not an IK killer, but it can help with taking out a couple of HP when the IK is in charging range.

I believe an FAQ has ruled you can only have one model use a grenade in the assault phase. So giving Fire Warriors EMP grenades are a waste of points as you only get to use two grenades max per turn (throw one in shooting then use one in HTH).

yes i am aware and thats why you only put emp when you have spare points. If taking hunter cadre there is a mandatory 3 units of fire warrior which can be used to screen attacks and can potentially release 3 emp bomb at shooting phase and 3 at assault phase which can potentially take out 1-2 hp of knights. quite good for the investment of 6pts for emp.

EMP grenades are 2 points per model, so on a minimum unit of 5 dudes you'd have to pay 10 to equip them with EMP. And THAT is why I never bother with them; there is almost always something better to do with those points.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:


4) Fire warriors with emp granades. Many IK players ignored them until they get in range for their bomb. Not an IK killer, but it can help with taking out a couple of HP when the IK is in charging range.

I believe an FAQ has ruled you can only have one model use a grenade in the assault phase. So giving Fire Warriors EMP grenades are a waste of points as you only get to use two grenades max per turn (throw one in shooting then use one in HTH).

yes i am aware and thats why you only put emp when you have spare points. If taking hunter cadre there is a mandatory 3 units of fire warrior which can be used to screen attacks and can potentially release 3 emp bomb at shooting phase and 3 at assault phase which can potentially take out 1-2 hp of knights. quite good for the investment of 6pts for emp.

EMP grenades are 2 points per model, so on a minimum unit of 5 dudes you'd have to pay 10 to equip them with EMP. And THAT is why I never bother with them; there is almost always something better to do with those points.

You don't have to put 5 emp on a squad. Just put on one model/squad. so you spend 6pts to equip your fire warriors so that they can potentially put a couple of wound on vehicles. Sounds like a good investment to me.

You can't do that. The entry says that the unit may take EMP grenades at 2 points per model. So you have to buy them for the whole unit.

Otherwise it would have to be worded the same way as the pulse rifle to pulse carbine swap i.e any model may take emp grenades at 2 points per model.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You can't do that. The entry says that the unit may take EMP grenades at 2 points per model. So you have to buy them for the whole unit.

Otherwise it would have to be worded the same way as the pulse rifle to pulse carbine swap i.e any model may take emp grenades at 2 points per model.

To clarify (because you're absolutely correct here), the entry states:

The unit may take EMP grenades........................................... 2 pts/model

The unit takes the grenades, not individual models - the cost of equipping the unit with EMP grenades, however, is based on the number of models in the unit.

What's odd to me is that the last entry, allowing Bonding Knives, uses the same wording but adds "entire" in front of unit.

Nevertheless, I feel the intention is fairly clear: if you want EMP grenades, you have to buy them as a unit, not per model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
that FAQ is not official.

It's official (as in, released by GW), but not finalized (that is, it doesn't have the final wording).

However, they've explicitly stated that (barring mistakes, which when called out, they've clarified then and there) the rulings on the FAQ will NOT be changed based on feedback, and will at most be modified for clarity.

There is no interpretation/clarity issue regarding the answer on grenades, and despite a fair number of complaints regarding that ruling, they have not stated that ruling is a mistake. Further, the rule as written is open to GW's official interpretation, so it isn't even an errata-disguised-as-a_FAQ (which itself is a silly, pedantic argument, but a different topic).

Thus, the FAQ is in force for anyone who wants to play the game as intended by the developers. Putting your hands over your ears and yelling "It isn't official yet" is your choice, but not a terribly convincing argument.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You can't do that. The entry says that the unit may take EMP grenades at 2 points per model. So you have to buy them for the whole unit.

Otherwise it would have to be worded the same way as the pulse rifle to pulse carbine swap i.e any model may take emp grenades at 2 points per model.

Thanks for the clarification. It seems i agree with your interpretation and its a crappy rule. The investment makes it not worth their points in my opinion.

Eurgh. I really hope they think again on the drop pod rulings... they are stupidly daft.

Stupid question, but I see people mention "Mark'o" as their Marker source... Can someone just explain what that is? I assume its some flavor of Commander attached to a bunch of drones, but didn't know if it meant something more specific.

Also, the last few pages of discussion had a few folks mentioning Tau deathstars being less competitive... Does that include the Optimized Stealth Cadre, as those Keels seem somewhat like a deathstar, but always do very well for me.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Stupid question, but I see people mention "Mark'o" as their Marker source... Can someone just explain what that is? I assume its some flavor of Commander attached to a bunch of drones, but didn't know if it meant something more specific.

Also, the last few pages of discussion had a few folks mentioning Tau deathstars being less competitive... Does that include the Optimized Stealth Cadre, as those Keels seem somewhat like a deathstar, but always do very well for me.

Basically a commander with Drone controller attached to a unit of marker drones. The drone controller gives all of the drones in the unit the BS5 of the Commander.

You can also give other wargear though the drone controller is all that is strictly needed to function as a mark'o. Other equipment is often dual missile pods and a target lock as it allows the commander to engage separate targets from the same range as the drones, allowing your marker sources to keep far back from the enemy. Alternatively you could give him stims and/or iridium armour and use him to tank wounds against your marker drones, though there are other units who may benefit from that tankage more, such as broadsides who are unable to JSJ.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Stupid question, but I see people mention "Mark'o" as their Marker source... Can someone just explain what that is? I assume its some flavor of Commander attached to a bunch of drones, but didn't know if it meant something more specific.

Also, the last few pages of discussion had a few folks mentioning Tau deathstars being less competitive... Does that include the Optimized Stealth Cadre, as those Keels seem somewhat like a deathstar, but always do very well for me.

The above poster has basically explained what mark'o means so i am going to answer the second question.

No, an OSC formation is not a death star....not even close. It is only a death star to a row of vehicles...which most competitive list wont take other than a gladius strike force. The only pseudo deathstar i can think of for tau is the crisis bomb with shadowsun as warlord joining it. But as I mentioned in previous post.....its not competitive in this current meta due to the fact that it does not have enough protection against all the shenanigans that other army can throw at it. If you meet another tau list with hunter contingent army, then you might as well shake hand and say good game before the game even start.

It says directly on it that its only a draft. It is not to be considered any more than as being submitted for comment. I do not expect some of it to make the cut. So dont act on a draft.

 Jancoran wrote:
It says directly on it that its only a draft. It is not to be considered any more than as being submitted for comment. I do not expect some of it to make the cut. So dont act on a draft.

Other than tank shocking a stormsurge to death, i think most of the new change in the faq make sense and is steering towards ITC rules in some parts. I am betting that at least 90% of the faq content will be final soon.

Maybe. Until then, it's a draft. And there are things in the draft that werent as well received. if GW is intelligent, they will actually act on the input they got.

How have people found breachers in general? Just getting around to doing mine up now, another option for more casual lists I figure.

For a kill team, I'm thinking I'll rock 10 breachers, the SMS turret (one lucky dude gets to hide out of los & Fire it) and a devilfish with disruption pod and sensor spines. Jeez the cost of the D'fish becomes really apparent at kill team level, half your points for a transport! At least in kill team, ignore cover should be relatively rare, so that 3+ jink and front armour might keep it alive.

I love breachers, but I've found that they are hard to get close enough to an enemy, even with a D-fish. They are fun, and they hit really hard if they do get close enough (I doubled out a bunch of those Skitarii Ruststalkers once with my breachers). I never take one of the gun turrets, but I do usually take a Guardian drone for that 5++ save (helps more than you might think).

I just played in a local 40k tournament today. 1850 points, ITC rules and missions. I played a Tau Hunter Contingent with a drone net tacked on outside the detachment. I managed to squeeze in a Stormsurge, a Firebase Support Cadre, and an Optimized Stealth Cadre. My first matchup was against a friend of mine who is a really amazingly good Eldar player. He had a Pale Court detachment and a CAD. Basically 11 scatbikes (total) in 3 units, an Autarch and a Farseer on bikes, a Skathach (spelling?) Wraithknight, and 31 Warp Spiders (6 units). I actually managed to only lose that game by a single point (which is amazing considering the skill of my opponent). Second game was against a mechanized Astra Militarum list. I won that one handily, getting maximum points. Third game was against a nasty Tau Farsight Enclaves list with 2 Stormsurges, a Riptide Wing, and a Mark'O with 10 drones, and 2 naked Crisis suits as troop tax. I went first and my opponent failed to sieze despite having allied in Coteaz. My turn 1 alpha strike really won me the game, as my Stormsurge's D-missiles stripped all but 2 hullpoints off of one enemy Stormsurge (which the two Stealth teams from the OSC then finished off). The second Stormsurge got taken down by my Firebase Support Cadre (those rerolls really came in handy, as well as the Hunter Contingent's Coordinated Firepower ability). After that, my opponent just didn't have the firepower to stop me, although he still managed to kill some of my stuff and kept from being tabled. I won that game 9-2, the 2 only happening because he got lucky and managed to last-minute take two of the Crusader objectives, forcing a tie on that mission. I ended up 2nd overall, with my first opponent going 3-0 to win the whole thing. Still, this is probably my best tournament outing yet, so I'm pumped!

My takeaway:
The Firebase Support Cadre can be very clutch, especially in a Hunter Contingent (if you combine fire with all 3 units, they get +1BS in addition to Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter). I'll definitely be running it again in the future.
The Optimized Stealth Cadre is pretty mean, especially to Guard players who rely on that front armor 14 on their Leman Russ tanks. It's probably better to have more than one Ghostkeel in the formation, though.
In a battle of Tau vs. Tau with both lists being pretty well built, the outcome can hinge on who goes first. My opponent's choice to take Coteaz was a good one, even if it didn't end up working out for him in our game. If I had not gone first, I would have been absolutely slaughtered.
The Hunter Contingent is a pretty solid way to build a competitive Tau list, although taking a CAD is viable as well. That coordinated firepower can really come in handy, even without markerlights.
Drone Net is almost a must take for Tau. It's just too good to leave out. You really don't even need a Mark'O to make it work, although I still recommend one as having some BS5 lights is great.

 Jancoran wrote:
Maybe. Until then, it's a draft. And there are things in the draft that werent as well received. if GW is intelligent, they will actually act on the input they got.

It is true, though, that most of it will probably be the same. So it's not a terrible idea to start adjusting to it and then only a few things will change whenever they make it official vs waiting for the whole thing and then a ton of things will be different.

But I agree - there is no reason to release a "first draft" unless you actually want feedback. Otherwise, they would have just released them as an official FAQ

So far, in my experience, the Hunter Contingent has proven adequet, but relatively unexciting. The amount of units you need to combine fire to gain the +1 BS, and the shared Marker usage is ok, but really, if you need to combine that much fire at a given target, your list is too all-over-the-place. If you have three units that are the optimal choices to be firing at target "x", you probably have a rough match-up as-is, and could find more efficiency at the list-building level.

Plus, a CAD lets you take Y'vahra which is just so unbelievable for the points, right now.

Likewise, I feel like a lot of players assume Drone-net is a mandatory inclusion, but I think player judgement needs to step in and ask if their list really needs Marker-drones in that volume. I know, yes, technically everything benefits from Marker-lights, but some lists need them in bulk, whereas others only get marginal benefit from them.

Well they don't all need to be marker drones if you don't need that many markerlights. You could take a unit of gun drones instead to have a unit to contribute some more S5 shooting on a mobile platform.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well they don't all need to be marker drones if you don't need that many markerlights. You could take a unit of gun drones instead to have a unit to contribute some more S5 shooting on a mobile platform.

If we're talking about playing with friends, or at a casual event, absolutely... but at something competitive, I would never, so long as I live, spend points on Gun-Drones. :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well they don't all need to be marker drones if you don't need that many markerlights. You could take a unit of gun drones instead to have a unit to contribute some more S5 shooting on a mobile platform.

If we're talking about playing with friends, or at a casual event, absolutely... but at something competitive, I would never, so long as I live, spend points on Gun-Drones. :-p

Better that than Shield Drones, lol.

But seriously, I actually ran a Drone Net a month ago and took one squad of gun drones in it (I wanted to be completely WYSIWYG). They're not terrible, but not great either. 4 gun drones = 8 BS3 S5 twinlinked shots with Pinning. If you Outflank them with the Drone Net's ability, you could strip some hullpoints off the rear of a vehicle, and at least force your opponent to turn some of his guns on your pesky little frisbees.

I prefer my Gun Drones to be unending spawn waves from Piranha squads. Drone-Nets need to be Marker-Nets (Mark-Nets? M-Nets?).

SJ

Turtlesoup wrote:
Riptide being part of hunter contingent is much more useful for surgical strikes and absolutely critical against invisible death star.

Please elaborate on this comment.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I prefer my Gun Drones to be unending spawn waves from Piranha squads. Drone-Nets need to be Marker-Nets (Mark-Nets? M-Nets?).

SJ

I'm sure that's a fun way to do gun drones, but you need so many gun drone models, not to mention a hell of a lot of Piranhas...

I'm trying it with 10 piranhas figuring I can only generate 60 gun drones. I own around 20 or so personally and I'm looking at making resin casts of the rest - I bought the casting materials but I've never done it before so we'll see how it goes

 thejughead wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Riptide being part of hunter contingent is much more useful for surgical strikes and absolutely critical against invisible death star.

Please elaborate on this comment.

If using the RAW rules and not ITC rule, putting the riptides as part of the hunter contingent is much more effective at shooting invisible death star. The fact that you can share markerlight with all the units in the army makes them a real threat to invisible deathstar. If using the riptide wing, you have more volume of fire, but you will also need to spend more resource to make their shooting effective due to the fact that they cannot ignore cover. So riptides in hunter contingent has less volume but more accurate and better quality damage compared to riptide wing.

Since our last discussion of the Hunter Contingent, I've tried it out a few times. I like it, for sure, but I don't necessarily agree that it's definitely the way to go. For instance, Riptide Wings composed largely of IA Riptides don't need nearly as much marker support as the HBC variety and also don't need to gang up on units to wipe them out. Consequently, increased fire volume is probably a better option for them.

Overall, I maintain that, even when using a Hunter Contingent, a Culexus is the way to go for mitigating psychic deathstars. Stacking up markers is somewhat effective, but nullifying the powers altogether is far better.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Since our last discussion of the Hunter Contingent, I've tried it out a few times. I like it, for sure, but I don't necessarily agree that it's definitely the way to go. For instance, Riptide Wings composed largely of IA Riptides don't need nearly as much marker support as the HBC variety and also don't need to gang up on units to wipe them out. Consequently, increased fire volume is probably a better option for them.

Overall, I maintain that, even when using a Hunter Contingent, a Culexus is the way to go for mitigating psychic deathstars. Stacking up markers is somewhat effective, but nullifying the powers altogether is far better.

I am not saying that it is the only way to go. What i am saying is that i have used them to win tournaments and it is very effective and i am surprised that most people don't use them. Collexus in my opinion is effective against psyckers but it is very situational where as the a fully kitted out hunter contingent is supposed to be an all comer list. For example, when facing IK or necron list, collexus is practically useless. Yet, IK and necrons are common in tournaments. This is why i chose not to use collexus. In addition, i do not agree with the fluff...but this is minor issue for tournaments.

As for riptide wing, it can be effective when combined with certain army built and formations, but it is still very weak against IK formations and invisible death star if using RAW. In general, i don't find riptide fire power to be anything close to overwhelming compared to other units in the game. In my games, i find riptides' mobility, versatility and quality of fire power to be its best feature. Using the riptide wing limits the riptides' mobility by forcing it to stay together and not moving when wanting to use its special ability of firing twice. The riptide wing also reduces the quality of the riptide firepower due to the need for more marker light. Tau need more quality firepower than volume. What i meant by quality is a firepower that is able to take out most unit at most situation possible in the game. In this case the riptide IA fits this criteria when properly supported by marker light. The only advantage of volume is when faced with high invulnerable save of opponent units. In this case, the riptide wing is definitely superior to hunter contingent riptide.

Turtlesoup wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Since our last discussion of the Hunter Contingent, I've tried it out a few times. I like it, for sure, but I don't necessarily agree that it's definitely the way to go. For instance, Riptide Wings composed largely of IA Riptides don't need nearly as much marker support as the HBC variety and also don't need to gang up on units to wipe them out. Consequently, increased fire volume is probably a better option for them.

Overall, I maintain that, even when using a Hunter Contingent, a Culexus is the way to go for mitigating psychic deathstars. Stacking up markers is somewhat effective, but nullifying the powers altogether is far better.

I am not saying that it is the only way to go. What i am saying is that i have used them to win tournaments and it is very effective and i am surprised that most people don't use them. Collexus in my opinion is effective against psyckers but it is very situational where as the a fully kitted out hunter contingent is supposed to be an all comer list. For example, when facing IK or necron list, collexus is practically useless. Yet, IK and necrons are common in tournaments. This is why i chose not to use collexus. In addition, i do not agree with the fluff...but this is minor issue for tournaments.

As for riptide wing, it can be effective when combined with certain army built and formations, but it is still very weak against IK formations and invisible death star if using RAW. In general, i don't find riptide fire power to be anything close to overwhelming compared to other units in the game. In my games, i find riptides' mobility, versatility and quality of fire power to be its best feature. Using the riptide wing limits the riptides' mobility by forcing it to stay together and not moving when wanting to use its special ability of firing twice. The riptide wing also reduces the quality of the riptide firepower due to the need for more marker light. Tau need more quality firepower than volume. What i meant by quality is a firepower that is able to take out most unit at most situation possible in the game. In this case the riptide IA fits this criteria when properly supported by marker light. The only advantage of volume is when faced with high invulnerable save of opponent units. In this case, the riptide wing is definitely superior to hunter contingent riptide.

The reason people don't use it is because Riptide Wing is objectively better and Hunter Contingent has way too many taxes like 3 Strike Squads. It's not worth the shared Markerlights. Tau doesn't have a problem killing one unit. They have a problem dealing with volume that top tier meta armies bring, like Battle Company or Jetbike spam. In those cases, sharing markerlights is pointless, but the double shooting from a Riptide Wing is absolutely invaluable.

Deathstars are a problem, but even then you have more volume in your shots which can get through the saves and a Culexus a much better solution than sharing markerlights when taking on psychic shenanigans..

Heldericht wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Since our last discussion of the Hunter Contingent, I've tried it out a few times. I like it, for sure, but I don't necessarily agree that it's definitely the way to go. For instance, Riptide Wings composed largely of IA Riptides don't need nearly as much marker support as the HBC variety and also don't need to gang up on units to wipe them out. Consequently, increased fire volume is probably a better option for them.

Overall, I maintain that, even when using a Hunter Contingent, a Culexus is the way to go for mitigating psychic deathstars. Stacking up markers is somewhat effective, but nullifying the powers altogether is far better.

I am not saying that it is the only way to go. What i am saying is that i have used them to win tournaments and it is very effective and i am surprised that most people don't use them. Collexus in my opinion is effective against psyckers but it is very situational where as the a fully kitted out hunter contingent is supposed to be an all comer list. For example, when facing IK or necron list, collexus is practically useless. Yet, IK and necrons are common in tournaments. This is why i chose not to use collexus. In addition, i do not agree with the fluff...but this is minor issue for tournaments.

As for riptide wing, it can be effective when combined with certain army built and formations, but it is still very weak against IK formations and invisible death star if using RAW. In general, i don't find riptide fire power to be anything close to overwhelming compared to other units in the game. In my games, i find riptides' mobility, versatility and quality of fire power to be its best feature. Using the riptide wing limits the riptides' mobility by forcing it to stay together and not moving when wanting to use its special ability of firing twice. The riptide wing also reduces the quality of the riptide firepower due to the need for more marker light. Tau need more quality firepower than volume. What i meant by quality is a firepower that is able to take out most unit at most situation possible in the game. In this case the riptide IA fits this criteria when properly supported by marker light. The only advantage of volume is when faced with high invulnerable save of opponent units. In this case, the riptide wing is definitely superior to hunter contingent riptide.

The reason people don't use it is because Riptide Wing is objectively better and Hunter Contingent has way too many taxes like 3 Strike Squads. It's not worth the shared Markerlights. Tau doesn't have a problem killing one unit. They have a problem dealing with volume that top tier meta armies bring, like Battle Company or Jetbike spam. In those cases, sharing markerlights is pointless, but the double shooting from a Riptide Wing is absolutely invaluable.

Deathstars are a problem, but even then you have more volume in your shots which can get through the saves and a Culexus a much better solution than sharing markerlights when taking on psychic shenanigans..

At first, i thought that three units of striker are tax units when i started playing hunter contingent. After playing tournaments with them, i conclude that they are not tax units. They play a critical role as medium - short range firepower saturation and screening units. Sometimes they even take away my opponents focus as they look like an easy target to shoot at. In a few games that i played, a few of my opponents made critical mistakes of actually shooting my firewarriors first instead of higher priority targets in my army such as broadsides and stormsurges. i was puzzled and I asked them why they shot my firewarriors first, and they said that it is because they have no better target to shoot at. I realize there are two reasons why they did this, 1) a massed s5 shots can actually hurt most infantry and transport, in their mind, those fire warrior actually represents a threat, 2) people are naturally gravitated to easy target. For a total of 135pts for 15 bodies that shoots 15-30 shot mostly at bs 4 in hunter contingent, its a bargain. The reason i don't bring more is because i needed more interceptor capabilities on the table which is only available to bigger platforms like riptides, broadsides and ss.

Regarding colexus and riptide wing, my opinion still stands

Turtlesoup wrote:

Heldericht wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Since our last discussion of the Hunter Contingent, I've tried it out a few times. I like it, for sure, but I don't necessarily agree that it's definitely the way to go. For instance, Riptide Wings composed largely of IA Riptides don't need nearly as much marker support as the HBC variety and also don't need to gang up on units to wipe them out. Consequently, increased fire volume is probably a better option for them.

Overall, I maintain that, even when using a Hunter Contingent, a Culexus is the way to go for mitigating psychic deathstars. Stacking up markers is somewhat effective, but nullifying the powers altogether is far better.

I am not saying that it is the only way to go. What i am saying is that i have used them to win tournaments and it is very effective and i am surprised that most people don't use them. Collexus in my opinion is effective against psyckers but it is very situational where as the a fully kitted out hunter contingent is supposed to be an all comer list. For example, when facing IK or necron list, collexus is practically useless. Yet, IK and necrons are common in tournaments. This is why i chose not to use collexus. In addition, i do not agree with the fluff...but this is minor issue for tournaments.

As for riptide wing, it can be effective when combined with certain army built and formations, but it is still very weak against IK formations and invisible death star if using RAW. In general, i don't find riptide fire power to be anything close to overwhelming compared to other units in the game. In my games, i find riptides' mobility, versatility and quality of fire power to be its best feature. Using the riptide wing limits the riptides' mobility by forcing it to stay together and not moving when wanting to use its special ability of firing twice. The riptide wing also reduces the quality of the riptide firepower due to the need for more marker light. Tau need more quality firepower than volume. What i meant by quality is a firepower that is able to take out most unit at most situation possible in the game. In this case the riptide IA fits this criteria when properly supported by marker light. The only advantage of volume is when faced with high invulnerable save of opponent units. In this case, the riptide wing is definitely superior to hunter contingent riptide.

The reason people don't use it is because Riptide Wing is objectively better and Hunter Contingent has way too many taxes like 3 Strike Squads. It's not worth the shared Markerlights. Tau doesn't have a problem killing one unit. They have a problem dealing with volume that top tier meta armies bring, like Battle Company or Jetbike spam. In those cases, sharing markerlights is pointless, but the double shooting from a Riptide Wing is absolutely invaluable.

Deathstars are a problem, but even then you have more volume in your shots which can get through the saves and a Culexus a much better solution than sharing markerlights when taking on psychic shenanigans..

At first, i thought that three units of striker are tax units when i started playing hunter contingent. After playing tournaments with them, i conclude that they are not tax units. They play a critical role as medium - short range firepower saturation and screening units. Sometimes they even take away my opponents focus as they look like an easy target to shoot at. In a few games that i played, a few of my opponents made critical mistakes of actually shooting my firewarriors first instead of higher priority targets in my army such as broadsides and stormsurges. i was puzzled and I asked them why they shot my firewarriors first, and they said that it is because they have no better target to shoot at. I realize there are two reasons why they did this, 1) a massed s5 shots can actually hurt most infantry and transport, in their mind, those fire warrior actually represents a threat, 2) people are naturally gravitated to easy target. For a total of 135pts for 15 bodies that shoots 15-30 shot mostly at bs 4 in hunter contingent, its a bargain. The reason i don't bring more is because i needed more interceptor capabilities on the table which is only available to bigger platforms like riptides, broadsides and ss.

Regarding colexus and riptide wing, my opinion still stands

I 100% agree with you! I find that the Strike teams can use the Coordinated Firepower rule to cheaply buff other units' shooting. After all, they don't have to be able to actually hurt what they shoot at, just be able to hit it. I'm definitely in favor of keeping it down to minimum squads in order to take the more fun stuff (like Broadsides, Stormsurges, Riptides, and the OSC), but they are not completely useless by any stretch of the imagination. The only thing I might do is replace one strike squad with a minimum unit of Kroot with sniper rounds to help deal with high-toughness targets like Monstrous Creatures, although there are other units that can already do this.

The reason people don't use it is because Riptide Wing is objectively better and Hunter Contingent has way too many taxes like 3 Strike Squads. It's not worth the shared Markerlights. Tau doesn't have a problem killing one unit. They have a problem dealing with volume that top tier meta armies bring, like Battle Company or Jetbike spam. In those cases, sharing markerlights is pointless, but the double shooting from a Riptide Wing is absolutely invaluable.

Deathstars are a problem, but even then you have more volume in your shots which can get through the saves and a Culexus a much better solution than sharing markerlights when taking on psychic shenanigans..

I agree with this sentiment except for the first part about Strikers. Massed S5 BS4 firepower is nothing to sneeze at, especially when it comes at 9 pts per model. As noted, they also provide critical speed bumps on the road to the guys that really matter. Don't forget that they're potentially very mobile if your Commander is near them. I'm actually considering spamming a ton of FW in a Hunter Contingent, just to see how well I can exploit the bonuses. I've had great luck with Breachers. Why not Strikers?


Aaaaaanyway, I think I'm likely going to stick with Culexus-driven lists. That route is definitely more fire-and-forget and makes positioning a little less important throughout the game. I'm all for tactics, but it never hurts to set yourself up for success by eliminating potential sources for error.

Went to the tournament Saturday and RELUCTANTLY entered when I learned that some of the more crazy Forge World would be allowed, including the Tau Supremacy Armor. I play Tau and even I don't really wanna' see that thing fielded.

Anywho, I decided the heck with it, I was already there. I entered.

Round 1
Round one was against the (new) Evil forces of Chaos Space Marines. They were led by no less than a Daemon Prince itself, and festooned with predatory things from the dark recesses of depraved thought. The...things... inhabiting bodies were no longer men.

Such abominations had to be dealt with and the Greater Good pressed forward, smashing them into bits and assaulting the center point to destroy the Gun emplacement which was our objective. We successfully removed the energon Core from the thing and bid the infernal planet farewell, victorious. One key moment in the game was when the opponent made the calculated decision to allow his Daemon Prince to alight to the ground, which allowed me to obliterate it (just barely), negating many of the bonus'she provided her forces. This keystones loss was big. In addition, the primacy of the Tau Empire and its technology took a heavy toll on the enemy, making every shot pin point accurate.

Round 2
The Second round I faced off against a more ephemeral foe: the White Scars. Their legion of armored bikers were replete with as many Graviton Weapons as they could carry, revvin' their engines and ready to lance my lines with those same weapons. They also had some kind of interesting Command Tank which I had only ever seen one other time, at OFCC, which I guess allowed him to drop apocalyptic blasts on my head. This seemed like a bad thing for me.

I split my forces into three cadres to disallow him from crashing into my forces and thus giving me no chance for escape. I figured I would probe his defenses and flee the strong point while putting damage on the weaker one first. This plan worked and the Tau Empire crushed all resistance. Our Fire Warriors and Snipers Drones hovered in their Gunfort, raining death on the enemy while we attempted to break the enemy lines with as many units as possible. The mission was to have more units in the enemy deployment zone than they did,so mobility was key and he had a lot of speed. We didn't just accomplish the mission, we tabled our opponent to a man.

Round 3
The last fight was against my old nemesis Dan. Many times has he knocked me out of tournaments with ties. The mission was to actively control more sectors than the opponent. His entire Battle Company army had the Objective Secured rule which meant I had to either obliterate him to a man(unlikely, though possible) or force my way forward at considerable peril in order to form a "border" around one sector, with the endgame being to contest the others if I could not control them.

So i began the arduous task of destroying the Dreadnoughts first which were his most potent threats to me, as they could shred and rend me apart if they got their in their full glory and killing them was slow work given there were six. I obliterated Rhino after Rhino, but Battle Companies pay no points for those, and so these were hollow victories as i had to repel his counter attack after each "success" and then do it all over again. He crashed against me like the tide, but we held long enough on the left flank to create our "border" successfully and as planned, the ONE quadrant was ours. We used lesser units to contest (though not control) the others and we could have done little else frankly as he just had m outnumbered with units. I pulled out the final win.

I ended up taking first at the tournament, so that should help me in the standings a little. More importantly we brought the light of the Greater Good to many million of people by freeing their planets so that they may be free to find their place within our great and ever expanding Empire.

Has anyone had any success playing the counterstrike cadre formation with breachers in a super aggressive style?

I haven't had a whole lot of game time with Tau recently, but I've been considering trying out a MSU force that's largely independent of marker lights. Specifically, I'm toying with using a dual CAD set-up that uses lone dual-flamer Crisis Suits as troops supported by a Stormsurge, solo Broadsides, and a couple Y'Vahras. I've had really great luck with the 2 flamer suits in the past. They provide excellent utility for the price. Obsec is awesome, and they don't deplete your marker supply. Really, the only thing that needs markers at all is the Stormsurge, though it's nice to keep your Y'Vahras from overheating all the time. My concern is that there won't be enough sources of heavy firepower to successfully take on deathstars or multiple Knights/Wraithknights. I'll plop down a list when i get a chance to think about it some more.

As to the above question regarding Breachers, I think the jinking transport-->snap-firing passengers ruling essentially relegated Breachers to the scrap heap. Even when you zoom 30" across the board on the first turn, Devilfish just aren't sturdy enough to weather any meaningful amount of fire without jinking. Similarly, Breachers aren't durable enough to endure an exploding transport. Without being able to reliably deliver your payload, the unit is simply too expensive to warrant using. You'd be much better off taking an IA Riptide for 40 points more.

Edit: Actually, a bare-bones Devilfish with Breachers is 125pts. A couple of those could potentially provide a reasonable backfield distraction to keep your opponent from advancing on you, but the Pathfinder/DFish tax is pretty tough to swallow.

Here's a sample list:

FSE CAD
Commander - TL, 2 missile pods, DC, BKR - 129
Stormsurge - pulse driver, shield gen, AFP, EWO - 435
2 Y'Vahras - stims - 530
4x1 Crisis Suits - 2 flamers, BKR - 132
3x1 Broadsides - EWO -210

FSE CAD
Commander - TL, 2 missile pods, DC, BKR - 129
2x1 Crisis Suits - 3 total flamers, BKR - 61

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1850

I worry that the second Commander is a poor way to spend points. I'll likely switch him to an Ethereal (who gets reserved and cowers throughout the game) plus another Broadside and another flamer on the suit that only has 1.

Yeah the two Commander thing is a little tough to figure out. However, I have recently been running a CAD (with Yvarha) with the Retalation Cadre and was trying to delegate one Commander to some markerlight support and firepower while the other Commader basically up front with Kroot killing stuff. Wasn't a bad list and won against a decent Eldar list a couple of weeks ago:

CAD

Commander Airbusting Fragmentation Projector X 2, Stimulant injector.
Kroot X 10
Kroot X 10
Kroot X 16
Yvarha with EWO and Stim
Skyray with SMS and Dpod
Stormsurge with Blastcannon, EWO, and Shield Gen.

Ret Cadre -

Broadside - Stock
Commander X 2 MLight drones, XV84 battlesuit (Networked markerlight), Fusion blaster X 2, drone controller, Shield Gen
Riptide IA and Stim
Crisis Suit X 2 MLight drones, Plasma rifle X 2, Target lock
Crisis Suit Plasma Rifle X 2
Crisis Suit Plasma Rifle X 2

For my non Markerlight commander, basically just atached him to some Kroot and infiltrated him with 2 barrage weapons. Worked out well and since that Commader was the closer initial threat than the Yvarha or SS, it allowed me an opening into my opponent's backfield. Subsequently, the Yvarha had a field day. Or the Commander can be ignored and the Scat bikes just keep rolling their saves while they hide. Was a decent strategy that might be worth exploring further.

As for using Breachers in a Devilfish (with Dpod), to do it the way I wanted (Breachers X 10 with Darkstrider or ethereal), it just seemed like too many points for an uncertain payoff. If they get destroyed before they can do anything, was it worth it? 5 Breachers in a devilfish would be cheaper but if I wanted to distract my opponent, Kroot can do it for much less. Conversely, I can spend those points on Kroot and push for board control so my opponent has to either try and get rid of the Kroot or go after the suits. Right now I'm leaning towards being more spammy with Kroot as they can really mess with target prioritization and otherwise be extremely annoying.

@MilkmanAI: I don't think you can take BKR on a Commander, and therefore you don't have to even in a FSE detachment.

@Bach: I don't think you can infiltrate your commander with Kroot. Both the character and the unit must have infiltrate in order to infiltrate them together; it does not confer to the character from the unit. However, you could Outflank instead and that would be perfectly okay.

As for the Breacher argument, I think that at the very least a full squad of Breachers in a D-fish is one hell of a distraction unit. A jinking D-fish is actually pretty durable, and if the guys inside have to snap fire when they get out, you should take markerlights to mitigate that. I guess the point of the above lists was to avoid markerlights, though.

Whoops, yep, I'm going to have to print that errata and put it in my rule book. To do the same thing in the future, I'd have to take Shadowsun and a Crisis suit.

Markers are a reasonable solution for snap-firing Breachers, but I feel like you kind of need large Breacher units to make that worthwhile. 170pts (or 185 with d-pod) is quite a few points to spend on a relatively unreliable unit. Granted, making the fish fast makes them much more likely to get where they need to be. I doubt you could reliably pull the Ghostkeel Wing shenanigans I used to exploit for a 2+ cover save on the jinking Fish when they're advancing that quickly, but 3+ is still pretty good. Perhaps compensating for your snapping Breachers with more markers is worthwhile? That's really a hell of a lot of S6 AP3 fire. Keep in mind, though, that it's pretty hard to both get your Breachers within 5" of their target and screen them with your Fish. Honestly, I have a lot of difficulty doing it with 5 models, let alone 10. When you're dumping that many points into them, they have to be more than suicide squads, or you're way better off with another source of high-S, low-AP fire. You're also pretty much obligated to bring an ethereal, because damn.

If you could bring anything to an event, what non-vehicle Tau list would you bring to a 3,000 point apocalypse game?

I was thinking 2 stormsurges, 1 supremacy suit, 3 riptides, and a bunch of crisis suits and broadside suits with farsight as the warlord. I got a painted army recently, but I don't have much experience with Tau.

 Virules wrote:
If you could bring anything to an event, what non-vehicle Tau list would you bring to a 3,000 point apocalypse game?

I was thinking 2 stormsurges, 1 supremacy suit, 3 riptides, and a bunch of crisis suits and broadside suits with farsight as the warlord. I got a painted army recently, but I don't have much experience with Tau.

As many Stormsurges as you can field with as many Marker Drone-Nets as you can field, and fill the rest with Ghostkeels.

I think I will spend my 3k on something like:

-1x commander, drone controller, 2+ armor, re-roll to hit for squad
-10x markerlight drones
-20x kroot
-10x pathfinders
-1x skyray
-2x stormsurge with interceptor, skyfire, and ?
-3x riptides with FNP, skyfire
-1x ta'unar supremacy suit

It's Apoc teams, so my teammates can go run around trying to get objectives and go into melee. I'm going to try to just shoot everything off the board with volume of fire and ranged D.

I feel like 60 fusion piranhas in multiple piranha firestream wings might do more work than expected. especially with 120 drones every few turns if you abuse its potential.
Or maybe 30, and then
-2x stormsurge with interceptor, skyfire, and precision shots (4d6 missiles would mean roughly d4 precision shots)
-3x riptides with FNP, skyfire
-1x ta'unar supremacy suit

Why no shields on the Stormsurges? I consider that a must take item for mine.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Why no shields on the Stormsurges? I consider that a must take item for mine.

Matter of taste? 50 points for a 4++ is distasteful to me, Its got enough wounds and is tough enough, and has innate FNP to compensate for it. And with 2 stormsuges, it reduces the qq from your opponent. And sometimes, just not hearing that is worth it.

I don't feel like a ~430 point model being very hard to kill is that big of a deal. 50pts is definitely a lot, but it doubles the amount of grav needed to bring down your expensive toy. A shield gen is a no-brainer, in my book.

As for the actual army, a second Ta'unar would be a good addition. That 7" D blast is pretty tough to get away from, even with anchored Stormsurges as an alternative. That aside, I agree with jeffersonian. Stormsurges with markers to support them is the way to go.

Yes, I do plan on putting shields on it.

For the record, painted models I expect to have available include:

-Lots of Crisis commanders and suits, including farsight and shadowsun
-The models previously mentioned
-Lots of broadsides

So can't add any more of the big suits than what I already listed. I guess I am most curious as to what to include for 3k besides the big 6 suits...it seems like all the markerlight units I listed are the best option, plus two kroot squads to screen a bit.

I am also wondering what signature systems from the codex and supplements to include on which suits.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I don't feel like a ~430 point model being very hard to kill is that big of a deal. 50pts is definitely a lot, but it doubles the amount of grav needed to bring down your expensive toy. A shield gen is a no-brainer, in my book.

at 100 points in upgrades, that's another unit of 11 firewarriors to bubble wrap the storm surge in. and ewo on your storm surge, there isn't going to be much grav hitting it.

I think the Shield depends on your meta somewaht but I think it would be necessary for competitve play. For example, I play Eldar A LOT and the first time I played the Stormsurge, it actually was killed on turn one by bikes with Shuriken(?) cannons. Enough rending can make it matter and there is quite a few armies that can negate the 3 armor save witha volume of shots.

Also, is it weird to not take the pulse cannon? I am having pretty good luck with just the blast cannon right now. Being able to move around and fire two shots from it is a big deal against half way mobile armies. Plus deepstriking units taking 2 D str shots upon arrival hasn't gotten old yet either.

For the record, painted models I expect to have available include:

-Lots of Crisis commanders and suits, including farsight and shadowsun
-The models previously mentioned
-Lots of broadsides

In that case, you should probably field all the Broadsides you can and use whatever is left after adequate marker support (which would probably be like ~30 marker sources for an army this size) for a Shadowsun-led Crisis Suit bomb. I like cyclic ion blasters on the bomb, but fusion is never a bad choice. Avoid plasma, though, unless you plan on facing a whole lot of 2+ saves. The CIB is usually better otherwise.

Also, is it weird to not take the pulse cannon?

If you feel the rest of your army can handle deathstars, and/or you think you're going to face lists with multiple knights or Wraithknights, the blastcannon is pretty sweet. Having a mobile 2-shot D weapon is really, really nice. Otherwise, the pulse driver is generally preferable, due to S10 doubling out bikes, Thunderwolves, and Centurions. You also don't have to sweat being within proper range.

What is the appeal of lots of broadsides and Shadowsun?

For the record, this is what I am currently planning to use, as the tournament allows unlimited LoW detachments.

Lords of War:
1x Ta’Unar Supremacy Suit (default gear)
1x Stormsurge, pulse driver cannon, air bursting fragmentation projector, early warning override, velocity tracker, shield generator
1x Stormsurge, pulse driver cannon, air bursting fragmentation projector, early warning override, velocity tracker, shield generator

Riptide Wing (Farsight Enclave):
1x Riptide, stimulant injector, earth cast pilot array , bonding knife ritual
1x Riptide, stimulant injector, velocity tracker, bonding knife ritual
1x Riptide, ion accelerator, stimulant injector, early warning override, bonding knife ritual

Combined Arms Detachment (Farsight Enclave):
- HQ
Commander, drone controller, mirror codex, command and control node, talisman of arthas moloch, iridium battlesuit, onager gauntlet, twin-linked plasma rifle
- Troops
10x Kroot
10x Kroot
- Fast Attack
10x Markerlight Drones
10x Pathfinders, bonding knife ritual
- Heavy Support
1x Skyray Gun Ship , disruption pod, automated repair system

Inquisitorial Detachment:
1x Inquisitor, 3x servo skulls

Took second place at the ITC tournament today using the Farsight Enclave Optimized Stealth Cadre, and a Farsight Enclave Combined Arms Detachment.

I tabled another Tau player with it, tabled a Salamander Chapter with it and almost tabled an Ork with it but he managed to Tie me on the Maelstrom part of the mission with a fairly fortunate charge. Unfortunately I didn't take the top spot. The top spot was taken by a War Convocation. Those dirty dirty Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus are making a mess of the place aren't they?

Optimized Stealth Cadre (Wall of Mirrors)
447pts 3 Ghostkeels (Bondinkg Knives, TL Fusion Blasters, Advanced Targeting Systems and Early Warning Overrides on all three; 2 with Ion Rakers) +6 Stealth Drones
204pts 6 Stealthsuits (Advanced Targeting System)
204pts 6 Stealthsuits (Advanced Targeting System)

Farsight Enclave Combined Arms Detachment (Crisis Teams are Objective Secured, All units in this Detachment are Preferred Enemy: Orks in close combat)
Ethereal
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
196pts Riptide (Bonding Knife, Ion Accelerator, Counterfire Defense System, Early Warning Override)
196pts Riptide (Bonding Knife, Ion Accelerator, Counterfire Defense System, Early Warning Override)
440pts Stormsurge(Twin Linked Airbursting Frag Launcher, Early Warning Override, Velocity Tracker, Shield Grenerator)

 Virules wrote:
What is the appeal of lots of broadsides and Shadowsun?

For the record, this is what I am currently planning to use, as the tournament allows unlimited LoW detachments.

Lords of War:
1x Ta’Unar Supremacy Suit (default gear)
1x Stormsurge, pulse driver cannon, air bursting fragmentation projector, early warning override, velocity tracker, shield generator
1x Stormsurge, pulse driver cannon, air bursting fragmentation projector, early warning override, velocity tracker, shield generator

Riptide Wing (Farsight Enclave):
1x Riptide, stimulant injector, earth cast pilot array , bonding knife ritual
1x Riptide, stimulant injector, velocity tracker, bonding knife ritual
1x Riptide, ion accelerator, stimulant injector, early warning override, bonding knife ritual

Combined Arms Detachment (Farsight Enclave):
- HQ
Commander, drone controller, mirror codex, command and control node, talisman of arthas moloch, iridium battlesuit, onager gauntlet, twin-linked plasma rifle
- Troops
10x Kroot
10x Kroot
- Fast Attack
10x Markerlight Drones
10x Pathfinders, bonding knife ritual
- Heavy Support
1x Skyray Gun Ship , disruption pod, automated repair system

Inquisitorial Detachment:
1x Inquisitor, 3x servo skulls

The appeal of Broadsides is that they're the best shooting units in the game, per point. If you've got an ally to protect them and allow you to sit back and rain firepower everywhere, it doesn't make much difference that they're immobile and fragile. Shadowsun is only worthwhile if you have a huge unit of Crisis Suits for her to confer stealth+shrouded and a 3d6" assault jump to. Otherwise, she's a waste. I think your army looks reasonable, but if you can switch out the Pathfinders for Marker Drones and have them in a Drone Net, that'll serve you much better. I'd also consider dropping the stim injectors on the ECPA and IA Riptides. Neither will be enduring the volume of wounds that a regular old HBC Riptide does, so save the 70 pts for something else...like more Marker Drones!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:


Optimized Stealth Cadre (Wall of Mirrors)
447pts 3 Ghostkeels (Bondinkg Knives, TL Fusion Blasters, Advanced Targeting Systems and Early Warning Overrides on all three; 2 with Ion Rakers) +6 Stealth Drones
204pts 6 Stealthsuits (Advanced Targeting System)
204pts 6 Stealthsuits (Advanced Targeting System)

Farsight Enclave Combined Arms Detachment (Crisis Teams are Objective Secured, All units in this Detachment are Preferred Enemy: Orks in close combat)
Ethereal
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
28pts Crisis Suit (Bonding Knife, Flamer)
196pts Riptide (Bonding Knife, Ion Accelerator, Counterfire Defense System, Early Warning Override)
196pts Riptide (Bonding Knife, Ion Accelerator, Counterfire Defense System, Early Warning Override)
440pts Stormsurge(Twin Linked Airbursting Frag Launcher, Early Warning Override, Velocity Tracker, Shield Grenerator)

I dig the marker independence. I'm leaning more and more towards units that don't need marker synergy to work at or near their peak. Fortunately, we have a lot of options available to make that happen. IA Riptides, the OSC, and Hunter Contingents are all really good at minimizing marker usage. unfortunately, Stormsurges are painfully reliant on them. Did you miss having D missiles available to you?

Yup. A small Sniper Drone Team is probably going to ned to find its way into the list. I did down the Buzzgob stompa with this list even without the D missiles but I would have preferred to have been able to do the deed with the Stormsurge alone. The list is tight on points but if push comes to shove I can probably make it happen.

 Jancoran wrote:
Yup. A small Sniper Drone Team is probably going to ned to find its way into the list. I did down the Buzzgob stompa with this list even without the D missiles but I would have preferred to have been able to do the deed with the Stormsurge alone. The list is tight on points but if push comes to shove I can probably make it happen.

Take 6 stealth suits out and one crisis suit (232 points) and suddenly it's just 12 points of dropped upgrades somewhere to make a drone net.

Try that out but I bet you'll love how your dudes perform with that (intercepting) marker light support.

The drone net isnt really necessary for this build. I just need a LITTLE Markerlight support, not that much. So its like 84 points for my favorite 3 Sniper Drone + 3 Firesight Marksman unit. That's all I really need.

I can just take out 3 Stealthsuits and get the Markerlights I need. Hate to do it because the Stealthsuits do so much WORK but on the other hand, so do D missiles. and as I seem to see a fair number of things that need D missile loving, it makes sense.

3 markers for a Stormsurge doesn't seems like nearly enough. I'm quite hesitant to shoot a D missile with anything less than BS5, so that's 1 missile per turn, at maximum. Most things that warrant D missile shots need to go down immediately, so that's not going to cut it. On the other hand, I feel like the Drone Net has made people a little marker-happy. I think an unassisted bare-minimum Drone Net is about the right amount or perhaps a little more than necessary for 1850. I can think of worse things to have than extraneous marker lights, but it's not very helpful to pump your IA Riptide up to BS7 just because you have nothing else to use them on.

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to Tau and have a small 2k army that I'm trying to build around, so please excuse me asking some potentially dumb questions, I'm just trying to get a feel for what works and what doesn't as I pick out my next couple units to add to the army.

XV107 R'Varna - Did these ever get an official (non-Experimental) rule set?

Riptide Wing - Where are the rules for this RiptideWing people love? I can't seem to find it, although I may just be obtuse and missing it like a blind person. As I understand it, I can't take these as part of Dawn Blade or Hunter Contingent, I'd have to run them in a CAD or some such?

MilkmanAl wrote:
3 markers for a Stormsurge doesn't seems like nearly enough. I'm quite hesitant to shoot a D missile with anything less than BS5, so that's 1 missile per turn, at maximum. Most things that warrant D missile shots need to go down immediately, so that's not going to cut it. On the other hand, I feel like the Drone Net has made people a little marker-happy. I think an unassisted bare-minimum Drone Net is about the right amount or perhaps a little more than necessary for 1850. I can think of worse things to have than extraneous marker lights, but it's not very helpful to pump your IA Riptide up to BS7 just because you have nothing else to use them on.

The Drone net is just too expensive for my list. Firesight Marksman hit on BS 5, so you are usually getting 2-3 Markerlights per turn and there's really only one turn it matters in. I agree that more Markerlights is better in the general sense but the Ion Accelerators, and of course the way the Ghostkeels work, make Markerlights a lot less important and it saves me a lot of points that I am using on more overall firepower and very tough wounds.

I won't argue against the Drone net in general becaue its fantastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rommel013 wrote:
Hey guys, I'm relatively new to Tau and have a small 2k army that I'm trying to build around, so please excuse me asking some potentially dumb questions, I'm just trying to get a feel for what works and what doesn't as I pick out my next couple units to add to the army.

XV107 R'Varna - Did these ever get an official (non-Experimental) rule set?

Riptide Wing - Where are the rules for this RiptideWing people love? I can't seem to find it, although I may just be obtuse and missing it like a blind person. As I understand it, I can't take these as part of Dawn Blade or Hunter Contingent, I'd have to run them in a CAD or some such?

Riptide Wing is in the Kauyon supplement isn't it?

Mont'ka I believe.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mont'ka I believe.

No books in front of me but its one of them in any event. I've never used the Riptide Wing because I needed the points for the Stormsurge which fills that critical role we all know exists against Buzzgob Stompas and crazy WraithKnights. I own three but I never end up using three.

I just got a second stormsurge and was thinking about whether I should run them together or seperately if or when I choose to run them in the same list. Run seperately, they cannot be tied up in combat at the same time, but run together I can tank more wounds without losing one - when I get down to one or two wounds on one, I put the other one in the front to tank more wounds.

In ITC events you cant run them separately but if you mean in a dual CAD type of list, that comes with the HQ tax then I suppose so. Experience says that having two together allows you maximum wound shenanigans as they move. Conceptually this is attractive but it does come with one downside that i noticed when facing it and that is that they are paying a REALLY hefty price to be good at combat and honestly, pylons allow the same firepower as two of them tromping around. I am unclear on why a Tau General wants to compete in the assault phase at that price but hey: if that's your thing, cool.

I think one is plenty in most lists. It is so easy to torrent one down with the more powerful lists out there that you really only have it for one purpose. Over investing in them seems... okay? I dunno. visually, pretty cool though.

XV107 R'Varna - Did these ever get an official (non-Experimental) rule set?

Not that I'm aware of, but it may have happened. They're kind of a neat concept, but you should be pretty darn flush with high-strength AP4 firepower. If you're going to roll with one of the experimental Riptides, the Y'Vahra is an absolute beast.

I'm just trying to get a feel for what works and what doesn't as I pick out my next couple units to add to the army.

It's tough to go wrong with a Commander, a couple Riptides, some Fire Warriors, a Stormsurge, and some Crisis Suits. The Tau starter box is really a pretty good deal, so you may consider that, as well. From there, you may proxy a few things (Ghostkeels, the tanks, etc.) to get a better feel for what you like. Tau benefit from being very powerful with a variety of lists. That does make buying your models a bit challengin, but it's nice to know that you have a lot of options!

R'varna final rules will come with Imperial Armour 14, scheduled to be released next year

 Jancoran wrote:
In ITC events you cant run them separately but if you mean in a dual CAD type of list, that comes with the HQ tax then I suppose so. Experience says that having two together allows you maximum wound shenanigans as they move. Conceptually this is attractive but it does come with one downside that i noticed when facing it and that is that they are paying a REALLY hefty price to be good at combat and honestly, pylons allow the same firepower as two of them tromping around. I am unclear on why a Tau General wants to compete in the assault phase at that price but hey: if that's your thing, cool.

I think one is plenty in most lists. It is so easy to torrent one down with the more powerful lists out there that you really only have it for one purpose. Over investing in them seems... okay? I dunno. visually, pretty cool though.

One is definitely plenty in most lists. There is literally no downside to running them as a single squad unless you are concerned about getting charged (by the way, having 2 helps a lot vs charges as it gives you more stomps) or if for some reason you need board presence in another part of the table. But really. Always run them as two. So much better.

Their combat effectiveness should definitely not be marginalized. Although they don't have a lot of attacks, they will usually get the charge off and still hit on 2's and wound on 2's or 3's against most things at AP 2, plus the stomps will usually wound on 2's or 3's (and they have the potential to kill anything that isn't a wraithknight).

 luke1705 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
In ITC events you cant run them separately but if you mean in a dual CAD type of list, that comes with the HQ tax then I suppose so. Experience says that having two together allows you maximum wound shenanigans as they move. Conceptually this is attractive but it does come with one downside that i noticed when facing it and that is that they are paying a REALLY hefty price to be good at combat and honestly, pylons allow the same firepower as two of them tromping around. I am unclear on why a Tau General wants to compete in the assault phase at that price but hey: if that's your thing, cool.

I think one is plenty in most lists. It is so easy to torrent one down with the more powerful lists out there that you really only have it for one purpose. Over investing in them seems... okay? I dunno. visually, pretty cool though.

One is definitely plenty in most lists. There is literally no downside to running them as a single squad unless you are concerned about getting charged (by the way, having 2 helps a lot vs charges as it gives you more stomps) or if for some reason you need board presence in another part of the table. But really. Always run them as two. So much better.

Their combat effectiveness should definitely not be marginalized. Although they don't have a lot of attacks, they will usually get the charge off and still hit on 2's and wound on 2's or 3's against most things at AP 2, plus the stomps will usually wound on 2's or 3's (and they have the potential to kill anything that isn't a wraithknight).

I dont think I am marginalizing it. I think it's overkill (which is the opposite of marginalizing it!). Dead is dead. I don't feel like paying 440 points more in order to make CERTAIN I kill something especially when killing things on the charge is generally bad practice when it can be avoided. So...

This is a debate that will rage on I suppose, but there are so many ways to win in 40K that taking two is as good a choice as any. I just don't feel it rises to the level of auto-include. One seems to do plenty as far as its assigned task goes. Either way the Stormsurge has a place in all lists in my opinion. One is a must for competitions allowing Wraith Knights and the like. Two just gets into debatable territory for me.

Time to vary up my Tau list, having played with the OSC, which is super good, but I figure might as well try out the Ghostkeel wing. So something like this in an 1850 list:

Shadowsun
Buffmander+Tanky Gear (Iridium, Stims, shield), Drone Controller and Vectored retro thrusters

9 Crisis Suits (target locks) & 6 Gun Drones, with a mix of plasma and fusion blasters.

Crisis suit with dual burstcannons

3 Skrays with disruption pods and blacksun filters.

Ghostkeel Wing (Ion Rakers, Fusion & early warning)

Inquisitor with 3 servo skulls.

So 7 tanky units with 2+ cover saves. Maybe switch the gun drones for marker drones in the crisis star, or is that too many markers for this list?

I'm not in a place to look at my codex, but doesn't the Ghostkeel Wing grant stealth, rather than +1 cover save? If so, I don't think it'll do you any good with a Crisis bomb since they'll already have both stealth and shrouded from Shadowsun. That said, Crisis bombs are awesome if you commit to them. I had pretty good luck with a bomb/Stormsurge setup. FWIW, the CIB is almost universally better than plasma, so unless you're super worried about models with 2+ saves, I'd recommend those instead.

Anyway, Ghostkeel Wing: it's great. I like it very much with Dfish-borne Breachers (which now apparently works again!). Shooting at a box with a 2+ cover save is exceptionally frustrating for opponents, I've discovered.

Yeah Ghostkeel wing doesn't help the crisis star at all, unless you really feth up and Shadowsun dies. That unit kinda fends for itself, whilst the Ghostkeels get that 2+ save for the Skyrays, whilst they provide markerlights for the keels.

I'm regularly trying out different weapon configurations on the crisis suits. I even tried out all burstcannons the other day, which was interesting..Cheaper and buckets of dice. I'll try the CIBs at some stage.

I also really like the change to jink, brought my breachers to a non kill team game for the first time this week. Fun unit!

So I've been playing the Mont'ka formations and trying to get the retaliations Cadre to work. My no.1 problem is: what to deploy?

I attended a tournament this weekend where I used
Retal, Rapid insertion force and Drone net, intending to deploy the drones and stealth team and DS everything..

What actually happened was that I ended up deploying part of the Retal cadre in four of my five games! I've redesigned my list and want to try Dawn's blade with Drones + Infiltration Cadre.


My questions, what deploy when using the retaliation cadre?

I doubt I'd ever use Low Altitude Deployment, if that's your question. Relentless Broadsides are far and away the best thing about the formation, and keeping them off the table for a turn is usually going to be a bad call. You might choose to deep strike the Crisis Suits, depending on how you're using them. Unless going with a Crisis bomb, my suits are typically objective grabbers, so reserving them works well. They're then able to drop on or near whatever objectives need capturing later in the game. Commanders, on the other hand, are usually there to buff other things in my list, whether they be Marker Drones, Crisis Suits, or whatever, so they typically are best deployed immediately.

All that goes out the window if you're trying to roll with Infiltration Cadre shenanigans. In that case, you should either reserve everything except your sacrificial unit if you're going second or deploy as you normally would if you're going first.

Low altitude deployment doesnt wotrk well with the Infiltration Cadre. their abilities contradict so I havent used the Retribution group.

My friend who tried it against me a couple days ago was tabled because it simply was too difficult to make that range advantage matter.

 Jancoran wrote:
Low altitude deployment doesnt wotrk well with the Infiltration Cadre. their abilities contradict so I havent used the Retribution group.

My friend who tried it against me a couple days ago was tabled because it simply was too difficult to make that range advantage matter.

Why do they contradict? I'm Proposing:

3x 4 pathfinder, recon drone
2x stealth, homing beacon
Piranha

Tanky commander with 2 plasma rifles
5 man crisis, 3x2 plasma rifles, 1x fusion + target, Raven suit
Fusion blaster team
CiB team
2x Broadside, 4 drones, target locks
Riptide, ECPA, burst cannon

Drone net, 4x4 marker drone.

If opponent goes first, deploy Piranaha. If they don't blow it up, roll for 3x outflanking pathfinder, 2x deepstriking crisis.
Per FAQ tau homing beacons don't have to be on the table to work. deep strike the stealth teams first than use their homing beacons to put your crisis where you want them.
You can outflank pathfinders first than the drone net of their reacon drones. can deep strike broadsides and riptide onto the pathfinder homing beacons.

You need to roll for infiltration reserves yes but with 5 roll and fishing for re-roll reserves on strategic it should work out alright.

Playing first you can just deploy most (e.g. broadsides, riptide, stealth pathfinders, maybe big crisis unit depending on enemy. Reserve the piranha and rest of crisis.

EDIT. Missed this post:

I doubt I'd ever use Low Altitude Deployment, if that's your question. Relentless Broadsides are far and away the best thing about the formation, and keeping them off the table for a turn is usually going to be a bad call. You might choose to deep strike the Crisis Suits, depending on how you're using them. Unless going with a Crisis bomb, my suits are typically objective grabbers, so reserving them works well. They're then able to drop on or near whatever objectives need capturing later in the game. Commanders, on the other hand, are usually there to buff other things in my list, whether they be Marker Drones, Crisis Suits, or whatever, so they typically are best deployed immediately.

I agree with all of this, the problem I faced with Tau is that some army's will simply ''catch'' you over the course of the game. with the retaliation Cadre you get alpha strike and decide where to attack first.
Deep striking the broadsides is actually pretty neet. If you deploy them a clever opponent will usually have some str8 ap 2 on them but outranging you. (e.g. hornets）And than alpha strike them. Deepstriking you get the jump on them. I just used that unit in a 5 round tournament and they were very clutch with the target locks. Blowing up 3 rhino's on arrival vs battle company. Deleting 3 units a turn vs Genestealer cult (and if I wasn't able to do that I'd have lost by a country mile, brood cycle and 2x subterrean uprising is a hell of a lot of units!)

Need trick is to deploy the drones first and circle broadsides on either side when deepstriking, than in assault phase you can spread out the drones and not be in Template Target formation.

I'm well versed in the use of the INfiltration CadreQ
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/04/tau-empire-infiltration-cadre.html

The reason is because if you trigger the Beacon, you cannot use the low altitude deployment. It specifies that units in reserve must use it in round 2. therefore you cannot make the Low Altitude Deployment and must instead come on as normal reserves.

The units in reserve are NOT placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Just reserve, because the Broadsides dont have jetpacks.

Anywho its a bad combo becasue the Lo w Altitude only works in round 2. It does not GRANT the rule. It just allows reserves TO deploy that way in round 2 specifically.

 Jancoran wrote:
I'm well versed in the use of the INfiltration CadreQ
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/04/tau-empire-infiltration-cadre.html

The reason is because if you trigger the Beacon, you cannot use the low altitude deployment. It specifies that units in reserve must use it in round 2. therefore you cannot make the Low Altitude Deployment and must instead come on as normal reserves.

The units in reserve are NOT placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Just reserve, because the Broadsides dont have jetpacks.

Anywho its a bad combo becasue the Lo w Altitude only works in round 2. It does not GRANT the rule. It just allows reserves TO deploy that way in round 2 specifically.

Tau Codex pg. 106

If you do so, deploy the entire Formation using the Deep Strike special rule

Tau Codex pg. 123

Friendly units arriving by Deep Strike do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6'' of a model with a homing beacon

I fail to see the problem.

EDIT: I see your point. intervention request woud happen on turn 1 ideally and that would stop your low altitude deployement. I can see how it stops broadsides from deep striking and RAW everything.... but I feel the crisis and riptide should still be able to deploy via DS. nonetheless it's back to the drawing board... what to deploy when using retaliation cadre....

 Fruzzle wrote:


I agree with all of this, the problem I faced with Tau is that some army's will simply ''catch'' you over the course of the game. with the retaliation Cadre you get alpha strike and decide where to attack first.
Deep striking the broadsides is actually pretty neet. If you deploy them a clever opponent will usually have some str8 ap 2 on them but outranging you. (e.g. hornets）And than alpha strike them. Deepstriking you get the jump on them. I just used that unit in a 5 round tournament and they were very clutch with the target locks. Blowing up 3 rhino's on arrival vs battle company. Deleting 3 units a turn vs Genestealer cult (and if I wasn't able to do that I'd have lost by a country mile, brood cycle and 2x subterrean uprising is a hell of a lot of units!)

Need trick is to deploy the drones first and circle broadsides on either side when deepstriking, than in assault phase you can spread out the drones and not be in Template Target formation.

If you are bringing missile drones, bring target locks on all 3 broad-sides and wound 4 units from your 1 unit of broadsides.
Missile drones target unit A so unit A is target of the "unit"
Broadsides all with target locks shoot units b,c,d respectively.

True you are giving up a drone controller, making drones not quite as good, or EWO, BUT it expands your gimmick perhaps a touch more.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:


I agree with all of this, the problem I faced with Tau is that some army's will simply ''catch'' you over the course of the game. with the retaliation Cadre you get alpha strike and decide where to attack first.
Deep striking the broadsides is actually pretty neet. If you deploy them a clever opponent will usually have some str8 ap 2 on them but outranging you. (e.g. hornets）And than alpha strike them. Deepstriking you get the jump on them. I just used that unit in a 5 round tournament and they were very clutch with the target locks. Blowing up 3 rhino's on arrival vs battle company. Deleting 3 units a turn vs Genestealer cult (and if I wasn't able to do that I'd have lost by a country mile, brood cycle and 2x subterrean uprising is a hell of a lot of units!)

Need trick is to deploy the drones first and circle broadsides on either side when deepstriking, than in assault phase you can spread out the drones and not be in Template Target formation.

If you are bringing missile drones, bring target locks on all 3 broad-sides and wound 4 units from your 1 unit of broadsides.
Missile drones target unit A so unit A is target of the "unit"
Broadsides all with target locks shoot units b,c,d respectively.

True you are giving up a drone controller, making drones not quite as good, or EWO, BUT it expands your gimmick perhaps a touch more.

Missile Drones aren't affected by the drone controller, so there isn't any point point bringing one with XV88's unless you're taking marker or gun drones for some reason. The Target Lock is only really competing with EWO or maybe ATS to snipe out heavy weapons like plasma guns or Meltas which can pose a threat.

To add to that, I feel weird putting anything but EWO on Broadsides. That's a lot of potential damage you miss out on that could make your life a lot easier come your turn. Splitting fire is great, obviously, but the better solution to that issue is fielding smaller units of Broadsides rather than target locks.

MilkmanAl wrote:
To add to that, I feel weird putting anything but EWO on Broadsides. That's a lot of potential damage you miss out on that could make your life a lot easier come your turn. Splitting fire is great, obviously, but the better solution to that issue is fielding smaller units of Broadsides rather than target locks.

In the retaliation cadre, you only get 1 unit of broadsides. So "moar broadsides!" while fun, isn't exactly applicable

My mistake on the drone controller, I don't often bring them.

 Fruzzle wrote:


I agree with all of this, the problem I faced with Tau is that some army's will simply ''catch'' you over the course of the game. with the retaliation Cadre you get alpha strike and decide where to attack first.
Deep striking the broadsides is actually pretty neet. If you deploy them a clever opponent will usually have some str8 ap 2 on them but outranging you. (e.g. hornets）And than alpha strike them. Deepstriking you get the jump on them. I just used that unit in a 5 round tournament and they were very clutch with the target locks. Blowing up 3 rhino's on arrival vs battle company. Deleting 3 units a turn vs Genestealer cult (and if I wasn't able to do that I'd have lost by a country mile, brood cycle and 2x subterrean uprising is a hell of a lot of units!)

Need trick is to deploy the drones first and circle broadsides on either side when deepstriking, than in assault phase you can spread out the drones and not be in Template Target formation.

Retaliation Cadre is the main way I beat Eldar, there is an undeniable edge to it. The main downside that I have experienced is that the points I sink into the Retaliation Cadre are not on the table, turn one, so you have to build a list that will survive without getting tabled turn 1 (or nullfied for the rest of the game). For me, I balance the RC out with a CAD which includes a Stormsurge, Yvahra, and a fair amount of kroot. This list allows my units on the table to not have to hide out and play strict defense while I wait for turn 2 for the second half of my list.

Honestly, I don't max out broadsides as I usually prefer crisis suits with two weapons. I would have been more inclined to take more than one broadside if I could take more than 1 unit of them in the Retaliation Cadre. At first I treated having to take 1 of them as a tax to the formation but after playing many games with the RC, a Broadside is cheap and useful, if taking only 1 and barebone.

In the retaliation cadre, you only get 1 unit of broadsides. So "moar broadsides!" while fun, isn't exactly applicable

That's true, assuming the RC is your only way to access Broadsides.

Honestly, I don't max out broadsides as I usually prefer crisis suits with two weapons. I would have been more inclined to take more than one broadside if I could take more than 1 unit of them in the Retaliation Cadre. At first I treated having to take 1 of them as a tax to the formation but after playing many games with the RC, a Broadside is cheap and useful, if taking only 1 and barebone.

Your take on Broadsides is surprising to me. They've always been strong performers in every list I use them, despite their immobility. The facts that they're basically independent of marker lights and dump out a ridiculous amount of shots for their cost have always served me very well. From a raw damage output per point perspective, they're among the best units in the game. I've considered a max unit of RC Broadsides nearly a no-brainer since the codex was released (if you're using that formation, of course). It's interesting to hear a different view on that issue.

Broadsides aren't bad but I have to say that I play Elder 60% of the time so, if taken out of the RC, they never really get to do much in a game. Also their shooting has never really excited (save for the old Str 10) me and I have considered crisis suits superior due to the flexibility in arming them and their JSJ.

In the current iteneration of my RC lists, I have packed in my main source of markerlights through a Commander with marker drones (and the networked markelight FW upgrade if I can get away with it) attached to a crisis suit with marker drones. I'll take a Skyray on the table so I have some initial and durable marker lights. When Kauyon first came out I did use 2 broadsides and did OK but when I got an Yvhara, I had to adjust my list somewhat. I'm currently putting my main source of markerlights as marker drones in the RC and basically took out a broadside. So far so good. I get miles upon miles of mileage out of the 3 single crisis suits with dual plasma (or switchout for whatever you need) and the Riptide with Ion all, at BS 4. I think the crisis suits pull ahead in usefulness on that initial BS4 shooting because you can basically drop them anywhere with a reduced chance of mishaps and they have the best chances to attack units trying to hide. Then they can do their jump move back into cover. That for me, is one of the biggest perks of the RC. If I took 2 broadsides they still have to stay in coherency which may limit my choices of targets. Also deepstriking mishaps may be an issue due to their base size and having more than 1 of them. I know one is useful for sure, 2 would be OK, but taking a full squad of 3...I think those points could be better spent elsewhere.

I am a huge fan of the RC. I think its the perfect counter to Eldar. I run a buffmander in a squad of 5 crisis suits (3 dual plasma, 2 dual fb) bare riptide, i go back and forth on running just 1 broadside or 3 w target lock. The other 2 crisis units typically comprise 1 of 2 w dual CIB's and 1 w dual fb. I almost always use low altitude deployment.

The rest of the army is usually a riptide wing and the ranged support cadre. Ive been wanting to toy with the recon drones maybe 1 or 2 pathfinder squads with one. Havent been able to get any games in with them yet though. Has anyone else used the recone drones in combination w the RC?? If so, thoughts?

I've been enjoying a Retaliation Cadre supporting an OSC and a Marker Drone Net. The Ghostkeel and their Steaths suits are tough to table turn 1, while beacons on the Stealths lets me dictate where my Ret Cadre arrives. The Drone Net just means better Marklights for less investment.

My narrative is that the Drones are on sentry duty, the OSC is in ambush, while the Ret Cadre deploys to close the trap. 1500pts, all minimal units except for Broadsides.

SJ

Optimized Stealth Cadre is just so fun to play with. Can't say it enough times. It is markerlight independent which is super and it has versatility. My number one all time favorite model, the Tau empire Stealthsuit gets played and that makes me sooooo happy inside.

With the GW FAQ now re-allowing jinking transports to poop out troops that fire normally, I'm looking to optimize my Breacher lists a little. Generally speaking, the options I've used include a CAD-based list with Ghostkeel Wing support for the Dfish (which is monstrously annoying for opponents, I find) and an all-out assault list with 2 Y'Vahras and a Counterstrike Cadre to get the Breachers up the field ASAP. An alternative I've theoryhammered is a DBC list using the Counterstrike Cadre (Breachers rerolling hits and wounds - ouch), but squeezing both an Ethereal and a Stormsurge into that one has proven difficult.

The former is very durable but pretty slow. Unless your opponent is really determined to blast directly towards you, your Breachers will be inert for at least the first turn. The strategy is heavy on positioning and gradually controlling the board with your multiple large tanks and then dropping off your brutal payload to wipe whatever causes you trouble. I've historically run small units of 5-6 Breachers since 15 S6 AP3 shots (assuming you're near your Ethereal) is enough to put a serious hurt on most units, even without marker support. They are kind of one-and-done roughly half the time, even with good Dfish positioning, but having those 2+ jink tanks running around blocking and shocking opposing units is great.

The Counterstrike/Y'Vahra list was entertaining as well but was definitely more oriented towards an alpha strike. The Dfish survived despite not having dpods, but the Breachers were marginally effective. I took them in larger units, but I was operating under the previous jink=snap fire rules. I'll try the list again now that things have been re-reversed. Y'Vahras are always brutal, so it was not surprising that they performed well. The list controls the opposing deployment zone quite well from the very beginning, but that may not matter so much against Battle Companies and scatbike-heavy Eldar lists.

The DBC list is a challenge because there's just too much stuff I want to put in that doesn't fit easily. An ethereal is basically a must-have, in my opinion, but without a CAD, that isn't happening. Similarly, the Stormsurge has to either come from a Hunter Cadre or a CAD. I'd really prefer to have the Surge benefit from wound/armor rerolls as desired, so the HC is preferred there. However, the CAD is basically tax-free and comes with an Ethereal. It's also kind of a challenge to fit in a Stormsurge, a Counterstrike Cadre, and significant ranged and marker support. Decisions, decisions. I may have to end up scrapping this idea, but I'm going to keep toying with it for a bit.

Example lists to chew on:

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
4x6 Breachers - 204
4 Devilfish - dpods - 380
2 Crisis Suits - 2 flamers, bonding knife - 66
Stormsurge - AFP, pulse driver, EWO, shield gen - 435

Ghostkeel Wing
3 Ghostkeels - 2 VT, 3 EWO, 1 CDS, fusions, CIR - 478

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1837
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
2 Crisis Suits - 2 flamers - 66
2 Y'Vahra - stims - 530
Stormsurge - AFP, pulse driver, EWO, shield gen - 435

Counterstrike Cadre
4 Pathfinders - 44
3x6 Breachers - 162
4 Devilfish - 1 dpod - 335

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1846
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DBC
Hunter Cadre
Commander - 2 missile pods, DC, TL, 2 Marker Drones - 152
3x5 Strike teams - 135
Riptide - IA, SMS, EWO - 190
7 Marker Drones - 98
Stormsurge - AFP, pulse driver, EWO, shield gen - 435
2xBroadside - EWO - 140

Counterstrike Cadre
4 Pathfinders - 44
2x8, 1x7 Breachers - 207
4 Devilfish - 1 dpod - 335
1639

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
2xCrisis Suit - total 3 flamers, BKR - 61
1847

While I am a huge fan of the first list, and think it will perform well, I think the second list hits harder.
In list 1 the Ghostkeel Wing will provide valuable 2+ cover-saves for the Fish, and provide mid-board support while operating at a similar distance. Trying to balance the screens and counterattacks in that list seems like it would be a challenge to pull off, but very fun (and devastating) if successful. All the while being supported from range by the Stormsurge, this should work nicely. As the Ethereal will (I'm assuming) be front and center with the Breachers, I might tweak the VT's and CFD off the Ghostkeels to trim points and buy 3 more Drones to spread into the Drone Net. With their abysmal leadership, it can be helpful to have a wound to lose before forcing that check. Overall this list looks like a gas to play and to play against.
List 2 had the Y'vahras. What more needs to be said? That alone makes it hit like a brick. The only thing standing up to them with the Surge would be a Deathstar that went first, or maybe MSU Scatpacks. Maybe a Fortuned Wraithknight with the D-Blade? The Y'vahras will certainly make sure no one will be paying attention to the Breachers, but the only question will be what will be left for them to kill when they get there?

I have a decent amount of experience with the first list against War Convocation and Renegades with demon princes, and the 2+ cover save is always rage-inducing. I haven't played other armies with it, but you're right in that maneuvering is a challenge. Small mistakes can seriously bite you. However, if you play tight, those Devilfish are a colossal PITA.

I've only run list 2 once vs my friend's weird DE/Covens/Harlequins freakshow mashup list, and while I cleaned house, I don't really know what to make of that success. He's a good player and tends to run rock-hard lists, but ultimately, it's still a DE vs Tau match.

I'm definitely interested in expanding my horizons, for I think it'll stand up well against most of the popular top-tier lists. Anything marine melts to Y'Vahras, so even powered-up deathstars would likely be unhappy, except maybe a barkstar with its massive amount of bodies. It matches well against Eldar, though multiple Wraithknights could be an issue. GSC would be a really interesting match. I don't have the intercepting capabilities that most Tau lists do, but there's quite a lot of daunting flamers for them to get through. Whatever the case, it's a fun list to run!

I like the first list, really cool and against armies who lack ignore cover, it will be a proper pain! Like a mech version of Ravenwing, but more fire power.

If you could find the pts, a luxury buy, would be Aun'do instead of a regular ethereal. He is an extra 25pts, but comes with a bunch of wargear (homing, hover drone, recon armour), fearless and the warlord trait that allows Tau units to ignore the penalties of going to ground once per game. In your list, that warlord trait would be fairly clutch to keep the breachers healthy.

You don't need it ofc and conquer of cities on strategic table is worth rolling for with a regular ethereal.

Edit: Maybe consider instead of drone net and velocity trackers on some Ghostkeels, skyrays as marker support? They fit the mech theme, less markers for your buck of course, but are hard targets in themselves, where's drones are currently an obvious target to aim at for anti infantry weapons.

I'm still loving my riptide wing and double storm surge list, supported by a drone net. Hardly the most original list to ever surface, but it's got so much firepower that I can't play it too often in my meta because it does so well. Plus the commander with the drone controller upgrade really helps the drones stay alive, and hitting on 2's is amazing with marker lights.

I have a list I like to refer to as my "Escort Mission". It's 2 CADs and a Drone-Net. Each CAD has 2 Mark-O Commanders and 3 Monat Flamer Crisis Suits, with one of the CADs having a squad of 2 Stormsurges. It gives me a fast, mobile army that can light stuff up and delete units every turn. Of course it has it's flaws, but so does every other escort mission. /wink

SJ

not to be cheeky, but are we legally able to buy a Counterfire Defense System for our Stormsurges, to give them Overwatch (at BS2)?

I wish. I'd have to look at the specific wording of the rules, but I believe that since gargantuan creatures can't fire overwatch at all, they never get to the step where ballistic skill figures in.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I wish. I'd have to look at the specific wording of the rules, but I believe that since gargantuan creatures can't fire overwatch at all, they never get to the step where ballistic skill figures in.

You mean like how superheavy walkers cannot fire overwatch (Rulebook P. 96, Movement and Shooting) unless you take a Baronial Court (IK Codex P. 108, Knightly Vassals)?

The issue is easily fixed by making it illegal to buy for a stormsurge, like Vectored Retro Thrusters or Stimulant Injectors. . .

 carldooley wrote:
not to be cheeky, but are we legally able to buy a Counterfire Defense System for our Stormsurges, to give them Overwatch (at BS2)?

They have no overwatch so it wouldnt matter.

Unless it confers the ability to overwatch.

SJ

It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

So got a couple of questions
1 is it worth going farsight enclaves compared to Tue standard codex?
2) as per the supplement I can make Amy detachment a FE enclaves one am I correct in thinking this includes the hunter contingent

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So got a couple of questions
1 is it worth going farsight enclaves compared to Tue standard codex?
2) as per the supplement I can make Amy detachment a FE enclaves one am I correct in thinking this includes the hunter contingent

1: It depends. If you want to run Crisis suits as troops or you want to use the FE signature systems (in addition to the regular Tau ones), definitely go FE. If you want to run a lot of Fire Warriors and don't care about ObSec Crisis suits, stick with regular Tau. If you go FE, you have to pay a tax in the form of Bonding Knife Ritual on every unit that can take it (not that it's that expensive). Ultimately, you need to consider what kind of list you want to run before you decide if it's worth it to go with FE.

2: I think you can run a HC in a FE detachment, but I'm not sure why you would want to. With all the units you have to take, that BKR tax starts to add up. You don't get any benefits of a FE detachment with a HC (no ObSec on your Crisis suits) other than access to FE sig systems and warlord traits. Not really worth it IMO.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So got a couple of questions
1 is it worth going farsight enclaves compared to Tue standard codex?
2) as per the supplement I can make Amy detachment a FE enclaves one am I correct in thinking this includes the hunter contingent

1: It depends. If you want to run Crisis suits as troops or you want to use the FE signature systems (in addition to the regular Tau ones), definitely go FE. If you want to run a lot of Fire Warriors and don't care about ObSec Crisis suits, stick with regular Tau. If you go FE, you have to pay a tax in the form of Bonding Knife Ritual on every unit that can take it (not that it's that expensive). Ultimately, you need to consider what kind of list you want to run before you decide if it's worth it to go with FE.

2: I think you can run a HC in a FE detachment, but I'm not sure why you would want to. With all the units you have to take, that BKR tax starts to add up. You don't get any benefits of a FE detachment with a HC (no ObSec on your Crisis suits) other than access to FE sig systems and warlord traits. Not really worth it IMO.

Thanks
In the case of point 1 I do pike quite a few of the relics which I feel could work rather nicely alongside my Mech Tau with suit support list. Plus earth caste pilot is a god send.
2) mainly due to the fact I don't own any of the farsight auxiliaries yet.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

I bet that if you ask GW, they would "clarify" that of course a Stormsurge would overwatch at BS2 if you bought the CDS for it. Because they don't understand their own rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

I bet that if you ask GW, they would "clarify" that of course a Stormsurge would overwatch at BS2 if you bought the CDS for it. Because they don't understand their own rules.

SJ

Exalted!
Champion of Slaanesh, did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

 carldooley wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

I bet that if you ask GW, they would "clarify" that of course a Stormsurge would overwatch at BS2 if you bought the CDS for it. Because they don't understand their own rules.

SJ

Exalted!
Champion of Slaanesh, did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

The Tau FAQ fixed it, I think, and specifically said that Riptides may take the ECPA if taken in a FSE detachment.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

The Tau FAQ fixed it, I think, and specifically said that Riptides may take the ECPA if taken in a FSE detachment.

link?

Mis-post

 carldooley wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

The Tau FAQ fixed it, I think, and specifically said that Riptides may take the ECPA if taken in a FSE detachment.

link?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/07/breaking-new-40k-tau-faq.html

very last picture in the post. "Xv104's Riptides can take the ECPA from FSE"

thanks, pumaman1.
Though through reading the FAQ, Anchored Stormsurges don't get a chance to Death or Glory; they just die to tank shock?

Death or glory is inherent to the Tank shock rule, so it still gets the chance to make its 1 attack to destroy the vehicle or die (since its smash might do it). SO you would get to try, but not the best odds in the world

So, i'm assembling birthday gifts today (and anticipating more Tau toys tomorrow/Sunday from the wife for Christmas), and was wondering if people could speak to how useful a second Stormsurge is in one's personal collection?

We tend to be fairly competitive gamers, and are also within an easy drive of quite a few ITC tournaments of various sizes, throughout the year. That should speak to the "tone" of our player-base.

People aren't afraid to "go hard" so long as it is pre-announced/agreed on.

As such, I was wondering if going 2x Stormsurge ends up creating a threat worth its points, and inclined to earn back its points, of if the second is just tremendous over-kill, possibly costing one the points to take other top-tier talent such as an Y'vahra, Riptide Wing, etc...?

At 1850pts, investing in the 2x Surge unit is incredibly costly, and i'd like to decide how interesting/competitive it might be before plunking down the cash for a second one.

Edit: One quick secondary question as I am building with an eye towards future wysiwyg. Is it EVER worth building Riptides with the TL-Fusion instead of TL-SMS? Just thinking it might help against inevitable super-heavies?

Two is always better than one, especially in the case of Stormsurges that benefit from being both GMCs and a squad for wound shenanigans.

SJ

Running 2 Stormsurges is a powerful option, to be sure. Abusing wound allocation to keep them alive makes for a seriously deadly unit. If you can anchor them and go to town for a couple turns, that's probably game over for your opponent. However, you sacrifice a lot in terms of flexibility running multiple models that expensive. You also set yourself up for some GSC or Magnus mind control awfulness.

Personally, while I find 1 Stormsurge essentially indispensable, the second one rarely makes its way into my lists. I prefer having other MCs in there to jump around the table causing problems. I tend to run really mobile lists, so having 850 points of basically immobile units is a problem. Y'Vahras, Ghostkeels, and Riptides fit much better in that slot. On the other hand, I've had some pretty good luck running dual D-shotgun Stormsurges in super-aggressive fashion, so that's a good option to remember.

On another note, has anyone ever tried making a purely mechanized list? I know Hammerheads aren't exactly amazing, but they're at least okay when twin-linked thanks to the Armored Interdiction Cadre bonus. With the current meta full of S6-7 weaponry, AV13 is actually pretty tough to punch through, especially when it has a 4+ cover save. You could run about 14 Hammerheads/Skyrays in 1850 or take out a few to work them into a Hunter Contingent with a Stormsurge: probably the more reasonable option.

I do not particularly find a lot of want for two StormSurges. Magnus the Red makes you think "gee, two MIGHT be nice" given how hard he is, but such a corner case and you can potentially get the result you need through dropping him to the ground and stomping on him without two Surges, in theory.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Running 2 Stormsurges is a powerful option, to be sure. Abusing wound allocation to keep them alive makes for a seriously deadly unit. If you can anchor them and go to town for a couple turns, that's probably game over for your opponent. However, you sacrifice a lot in terms of flexibility running multiple models that expensive. You also set yourself up for some GSC or Magnus mind control awfulness.
.

1 or 2 Stormsurges do not matter for the GSC Mind control. Only one gets to fire.

Oh yeah, interesting. I guess I saw the "targets a single non-vehicle unit..." and turned my brain off.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
At 1850pts, investing in the 2x Surge unit is incredibly costly, and i'd like to decide how interesting/competitive it might be before plunking down the cash for a second one.

I purchased two, and justified it as a modeling project. I hated the 'armless' look of the stock Surge, so I decided to make one with arms from the GW kit and kitbash a second with a third party model as the base. I got very good feedback from the third party model. Long story short, I rarely use a second Surge. It is a very powerful unit, but for competitive games the points can be spent on other threats that force the opponent to make tough choices for Shooting/Assault priority. If you want to make the 2xSurge unit the core of a competitive list, I think that is a completely viable option. As long as you know your competition, and can build the rest of the list around filling those gaps, it can be brutal. I'm currently tweaking a list for a ITC GT and my roughest decision was choosing between the second Surge or Forgeworld. Right now, for my area, the Y'vahra and Tetras are too potent to pass up.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Is it EVER worth building Riptides with the TL-Fusion instead of TL-SMS? Just thinking it might help against inevitable super-heavies?

I never have been disappointed with SMS. Fusion is very situational, but when it is needed there is no substitute. The problem with bringing Fusion against Superheavies/GMCs is that IKnights or Wraithkinghts are very common, and if you are close enough to use the Fusion, it will probably be the last thing the Riptide fires before it gets charged. The SMS is just good almost all the time, particularly when you Intercept. I often use the SMS from Riptides without the primary weapon, due to the Twin-link. Terrain also plays a part as well. If you anticipate lots of LoS blocking pieces SMS is stupid good. Even when you know you can't get a bead on someone, you can Nova the SMS and drop decent firepower regardless. If you can't decide just remember: Tau love magnets. The weapons on a Riptide are just about the easiest you will ever do as well. I only run SMS anymore but, occasionally, when I need it, Fusion is swappable.

MilkmanAl wrote:
On another note, has anyone ever tried making a purely mechanized list? I know Hammerheads aren't exactly amazing, but they're at least okay when twin-linked thanks to the Armored Interdiction Cadre bonus. With the current meta full of S6-7 weaponry, AV13 is actually pretty tough to punch through, especially when it has a 4+ cover save. You could run about 14 Hammerheads/Skyrays in 1850 or take out a few to work them into a Hunter Contingent with a Stormsurge: probably the more reasonable option.

I have played a very successful semi-competitive setup with the AIC, CAD, and Ghostkeel Wing. The Ghostkeel Wing provides an additional Stealth buff to the DPods and the Battlesuits are big enough to give a 5+ cover screen in a pinch. If you can grab a ruin to hide behind then the vehicle gets a 2+. I run a CAD with Tetras for Markerlights to keep with the mechanized theme, and give one Tetra in each unit a DPod. Barring an "Explodes!' Result on the damage table, this give the lead Tetra an effective 12 Hull Points, if you can keep their low profile behind a ruin. Without an answer to Psychic Deathstars (due to the ITC Formation limit) I haven't pushed this setup farther than semi-competitive. I have a few drafts for a GkW and Dawnblade with a Skysweep and the same principle, that allows an anti-Psychic Detachment, but have not had the time to play it yet. Please post about any success you have with an attempt in this area, I would love to hear about any results you get.

This might bear some discussion. What would people put into a list instead of a second storm surge?

For example, at my 1850, I'm running

Commander, Iridium, drone controller

Crisis Suit (flamer)
Crisis Suit (flamer)

2 stormsurge (shields, pulse driver cannon)

Drone Net (all markers)

Riptide Wing (all HBC & SMS)

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

Possibly some Broadsides, plus some better weapons/more bodies on your Crisis squads. If you still have enough points, you can't go wrong with a Ghostkeel, either. I would say take an OSC with the points from the second Stormsurge, but if you are playing in an ITC event you already have the max number of detachments.

 luke1705 wrote:
Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

I can only speak to what my local ITC events are like, and what has worked for me. I find that a well constructed Deathstar can walk through a Hailfire and Double heels down Surge unit, with minor casualties. Invis Deamon Knights with a 2++, rerolling 1s are also rarely scratched; and its support units are often just as tough, or worse. Heck, even a Fortuned melee Wraithknight can be game breaking if the scatbikes get the drop on your Markers, preventing you from having Str D. For me, Psychic defense is a must. I love the Culexus, but Sisters of Silence are my new go-to. 2 squads of Sisters and a Y'vahra are less than the cost of a Surge, and the Y'vahra is a beast.

My current Tournament set up went so far as to drop the Commander and Drones, in favor of Tetras. The Tetra's Scout Redeployment and 12" move make it highly likely my opponent will be in range to drop D-Missiles turn 1. Often the Commander's drones could be out of range and then under heavy fire even if I went first. I swapped in a Fireblade and two Broadsides for additional Interceptor, and that has been a fine substitute.

What are your opinions on the burst cannon Hazard suits? I'm not playing in tournaments, and I just bought two because they look pretty. General power level/best ways to use them? My normal list doesn't have much anti-horde.

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

For you, in particular, I'd probably add a couple IA Riptides and condense the HBC ones you have into 1 unit with target locks to get Fire Team. Maybe toss in another flamer suit, too, if you have the points. Generally speaking, Riptides, Y'Vahras, Broadsides, and Ghostkeels are all great options for Stormsurge replacements, depending on your list. It's pretty tough to go wrong.

While I haven't yet run Sisters of Silence, I think they're probably going to end up being a staple of competitive Tau lists. We struggle against strong psychic phases and deathstars, in particular, so being able to shut those down even for a turn is a huge deal. Having a touch of melee oomph never hurt, either.

As for hazard suits, I'd consider Broadsides overall better. While Broadsides aren't as mobile, I'd say durability is roughly a wash, while firepower is clearly better with missilesides.

 luke1705 wrote:
This might bear some discussion. What would people put into a list instead of a second storm surge?

For example, at my 1850, I'm running

Commander, Iridium, drone controller

Crisis Suit (flamer)
Crisis Suit (flamer)

2 stormsurge (shields, pulse driver cannon)

Drone Net (all markers)

Riptide Wing (all HBC & SMS)

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

at 2K which I just played, I have a full sized Optimized Stealth Cadre, 2 Riptides, a Stormsurge, a Sniper Drone squad for markerlight support, Kroot for anti-scouting, 3 monat Crisis suits that drop in with Flamers, an Ethereal.

 luke1705 wrote:
This might bear some discussion. What would people put into a list instead of a second storm surge?

For example, at my 1850, I'm running

Commander, Iridium, drone controller

Crisis Suit (flamer)
Crisis Suit (flamer)

2 stormsurge (shields, pulse driver cannon)

Drone Net (all markers)

Riptide Wing (all HBC & SMS)

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

Coldstar mark'o?

I want the coldstar to be useful, but I really can't think of a reason that just about anything else for the points wouldn't be better. His armament and durability just kind of suck. The best use I've heard of so far is using him in a HC to fly around granting run/shoot moves to things in the enemy backfield, but even that isn't too terribly difficult to come by otherwise in a Tau list these days.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I want the coldstar to be useful, but I really can't think of a reason that just about anything else for the points wouldn't be better. His armament and durability just kind of suck. The best use I've heard of so far is using him in a HC to fly around granting run/shoot moves to things in the enemy backfield, but even that isn't too terribly difficult to come by otherwise in a Tau list these days.

Outside of a fluff build, literally the only purpose for a cold star suit, is to use him in the hunter contingent with the ambushes and feints special rule, where a unit within 12" of him can run/flout out and shoot as normal. The cold star suit means he can keep up with piranhas with fusion blasters to get in t1 melta range, and then be able to scoot as far away as they need to turn 2/ get the best arc on the other flank. If you aren't doing that, or plan on the piranhas dying t1, then a regular commander is just as useful or more.

If you haven't tried it yet, it will ruin an IK day as they declare their invul shield on 1 side, and you flat out 18" behind them and ignore it.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I want the coldstar to be useful, but I really can't think of a reason that just about anything else for the points wouldn't be better. His armament and durability just kind of suck. The best use I've heard of so far is using him in a HC to fly around granting run/shoot moves to things in the enemy backfield, but even that isn't too terribly difficult to come by otherwise in a Tau list these days.

put him with one of the drone net squads. use it to reposition them for better placement, also, it helps to preserve them for when you want to use them, as they are not targetable when zooming. and you would have 2-3 other squads of markerlights to use at the time.

I'm sure that I will eventually get a Y'vahra and some tetras to try that out in lieu of the stormsurge, but outside of a deathstar with a lot of bodies, I don't find too many issues. A well-placed D missile will down any wraithnight or a daemon knight. But yeah deamons with good invuln saves would probably be a bear. Guess you just kill everything except the buffed unit, especially since even daemon deathstars often rely on either a cover save at some point or Fateweaver, who will be easier to down with the new FAQ and thus less enticing. And without fatey, you fail the grim and your deathstar is toast.

Have no intentions of running more normal riptides though lol. IA is nice but since both my stormsurges have the pulse driver cannon, that niche is pretty covered, so taking out one for the other is a lateral move, and IMO not a better one.

Anti-scouting is interesting though...maybe an inquisitorial detachment with a culexus and a servo skull dude...could then change the drone net to tetras...hmm something to consider.

 carldooley wrote:
put him with one of the drone net squads. use it to reposition them for better placement, also, it helps to preserve them for when you want to use them, as they are not targetable when zooming. and you would have 2-3 other squads of markerlights to use at the time.

Since he's a FMC the GW FAQ nerfed that option (Page 7):
Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

 luke1705 wrote:
Fateweaver, who will be easier to down with the new FAQ and thus less enticing.

I must have missed that bit in the FAQ. What makes Fateweaver easier to tackle?

 Plainshow wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
put him with one of the drone net squads. use it to reposition them for better placement, also, it helps to preserve them for when you want to use them, as they are not targetable when zooming. and you would have 2-3 other squads of markerlights to use at the time.

Since he's a FMC the GW FAQ nerfed that option (Page 7):
Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

 luke1705 wrote:
Fateweaver, who will be easier to down with the new FAQ and thus less enticing.

I must have missed that bit in the FAQ. What makes Fateweaver easier to tackle?

He has to be on the board to take advantage of his re-rolls. Previously, there was no down side to fateweaver being on the board for only your psychic phase and running into ongoing reserves for 1/2 of your opponent's shooting phases. Now, they either sacrifice his durability or his effectiveness.

I'm completely missing that in the finalized FAQ, can you point me to a page/section where that is stated? I would love to have a leg up on that flying turkey.

I attended a tournament recently with my tau, small recap; I played Enclaves:
Tournament used ICT mission but not their rules; Full power invis and 2+ re-roll in effect. Used GW Draft FAQ

Retal Cadre core

Commander with plasma rifles, FNP, Iridium, PEN
5 man Crisis Team with Buff''vre(Vectored, MSSS, C&C) 3x 2 Plasma Rifle, 1x 2 fusion with target lock
2x1 double fusion suit
Riptide with ECPA
2 broadsides with 4 drones


Rapid Insertion Force
Big stealth team with drones, 'vre with homer, light and fusion
2 Burst suits with 2 drones
1 Double fusion suit
1 double CiB suit
Riptide with ION

Drone net, 4x4 marker drones

Now the list was kind of because I wanted to play with a lot of crisis suits. I had originally planned to play battle company but the tournament ended up using the ''GIANT'' drop pod rule and as my battle company has 7 pods... I didn't really want to do that. I ended up playing the RIF because I needed something to deploy; I would have play the 3x broadsides 3x pathfinder formation instead but didn't have enough pathfinder so, this is it!

Game 1 against whitescars biker deadstar + spacewolf get started formation. I end up rolling for first turn and master of ambush so.....
I deploy everything -RIF, big unit with commander hidden out of los but close enough to turn one nuke his deadstar together with Riptide and broadsides, I deploy save enough because I'm scared of getting seized on. He rolls; . Well okay not bad, I deployed save enough, I can take it. Chapter master orbital bombardment on my main team; no LOS, to me, rolls double 6 for scatter distance but; HIT!, I loose most of my big team, kicking myself for not deep striking at that moment and getting greedy with MoA but still think going for the kill was the best play.

Game devolves into me trying to stay alive and killing not deadstar stuff. He doesn't push hard enough with his star (He could have had me completely turn 2/3 if he just shoved it down my throat but ends up camping midfield trying to clear my small units. I end up killing his small units but luck was against me; Stealth team failed 7/9 saves and my broadsides with markerlight support LOOSE shootout with 10 grey hunters. using the 4d6 jump moves on riptides and extreme force conservation tactics see me win the game on objectives but I really shouldn't have if he just pushed with the star.

Game 2 against Dark Angels battle company with 5(!!) units of scouts.

Deployment was diagonal, I look at his list and I outrange him completely, so I deploy everything - RIF. However he has something called and anniversary marine which has me scared shitless, 2 shot, str5 ap 2 INSTANT DEATH. That can kill my riptide pretty well (And I have no EWO's). I castle/spread out across my corner and wait for his drops..... He just drops 2 dread holding of his command team, so another turn of me in the corner playing long range nukes. Finally THAT pod comes in, he hits with one and fails to wound the tide! I thought it be a gonner. In my turn I clear his command team (Command squad, DA special character libby and a captain) with my command team and start to push aggressively up the table for the next 3 turns. Do well on maelstrom and almost end up tabling him!. The broadsides with target lock were really clutch; killing 2/3 units every turn really helps cut down the battle company.

Game 3, Iron hands demi company + knight. This had Libby conclave dead star + chaptermaster with 2+, 3++ and 2+++FNP. GULP!.
We're playing long ways and I reserve everything - Drones and stealth team. He seems very scared of my drop and holds back turn 1/2 waiting for me. I'm okay with this; I don't really get good deep strike target but I can hide my units and we're going even with the maelstorms. As my drops come in I deep strike command team in my DZ and push drones as a screen. Rest of units just start unloading into his demi-company + knight.

As he pushes up his deadstar I push the other directions with small crisis teams. My ECPA riptide is clutch as it take 4/6 HP of the knight in one turn (2 markelights, dawnsblade benefit; hitting on 2's re-rolling, penning on 6's rerolling! awesome!). However invis + 2+ re-roll; I can't really hit the deathstar at all; I end up killing everything else and, using drones to control/block his movement the best I can. He splits it up last turn; we tie the game. I would have lost this one if he pushed with his star from the get go.

Game 4: against genestealer cult with 3 flyrants allied.
He had brood cycle + 2 sub ter. uprising and 3 flyrants, and first turn. Uh o!
I deploy everything - RIF and turtle behind my drones. He reserves his flyrants! Later he told me he was scared I'd sieze and kill but there was LOS blockers to hide so... anyway. He assaults my castle and I end up killing 5/6 units in overwatch, loose some drones and my sealth team. My turn I delete 5 units through Broadsides, riptide, command team. After that his flyrants come in and kill my commander, but my 'Vre manages to survive with 3 plasma buddies. My turn 'Vre & CO kill 1 flyrant, markerlights and Broadsides+Riptide kill another. After that I'm moving up the table in 2 ''kill'' teams; anything rolling 6's to come one will get wiped in the overwatch. Broadsides/sms from riptides really pull through in this game. WIN!
If flyrants started on the table I'd have lost; turn 1 they could have easily killed most of my drones; my overwatch would have been worse, Firepower units and not marker drones would have been killed and my turn 1 I'd have had too many targets (flyrants + ground instead of just ground).

Game 5: against elder
He has: Wraith knight, Crimson hunter formations, 2x2 hornets, Warphunter (?) small blasts and flame D. Lots of scatbikes and Autarch as HQ and a culexus
Pretty sure I should loose this game; enough firepower to table me turn 3, but it's not how it went.
It's diagonal again, I roll the re-roll reserve warlord trait and play first. I deploy Riptide, broadsides, drones, stealth. He deploy everything - warphunter, hornets and Crimsons.
I push my stealth team behind BLOS close to his DZ and turn one start to shoot scatbikes hoping for leadership tests and stop his mobility/firepower. I also find the terrain very useful; My drones and stealth teams can hop over walls shoot, and with a 2'' roll get out of LOS. Turn one I kill a bunch of bikes, he deployed WAY to close the terrain. I was scared he'd send his wraithknight to flush out my stealth team quickly but nope. His turn one a broadside + some drones die, and not much else. My reserves arrive and I put as much in his DZ as I can; I want to kill the Knight and all his bikes if I can; ECPA riptide again clutch, 1 markerlight; stacks 4 wounds on the Wraithknight and 3 go through FNP. Command team deals 2 more wounds but I can't get the last one of it! however I do kill almost all his bikes, culexus still hiding in a corner. His turn; in come crimson hunters, Hornets but not the Warphunter! I loose ECPA riptide and last drones of broadside team, bunch of solo suits die.

My turn, Kill wraithknight, 2/3 crimson hunters (Command team gets one, broadside with markers get one and I make hornet jink. His turn, hunter comes in a wipes out my whole stealth team in who had sneaked up the middle of the board to get a obj. there in one go But..... if he went for my command team I'd might have lost the game there. Anyway I use LOS to JSJ, his firepower has taken a massive hit but I still have command team, ION tide, solo suits and markers operational, last 2 turn is me tabling him for the tournament win!


Take aways: 4/5 games I feel I should have lost. Both deathstars didn't push. The elder player had me easily outranged and if he deployed far back I wouldn't have been able to hurt him turn 1 &2. Genestealer cult with flyrants on the table would have overwhelmed me.

Units I liked: Retal cadre!! I deployed in 4/5 game because of me taking the RIF.... but Damn that ECPA riptide and Relentless broadsides put in work. I missed not having EWO but with the target lock broadsides really pulled through for me vs battle company and genestealer cult. I really liked the ''small'' deathstar of 5 suits + commander as well. Really useful to be able to just say: DELETE that unit (except of course, invis+ 2+ reroll units)

I did like the stealth team but not the RiF. Being locked in deep strike (and forced to deploy with stealth) loses you tactical flexibility; But twin linked double burst cannons were awesome.

Now a couple of weeks later I played more tau game taking even more crisis suits and I'm beginning to think there might be a ''crisis critical mass'' point; 1060 gives you 20 crisis suits with double 15 pt. weapons. The damage they put out and tactical flexibility/movement they have is great. I now have 15 crisis, next time I might have 18 and I'll test it but, all those small units with crazy firepower who can adept to any situation, I begin to feel there is potential here that's greater than it first appears.

Wow long write , hope there is something useful there.

Fruzzle

Thanks for the batrep, Fruzzle! I really do like your list; very different from other Tau lists I've seen. I've tried out the RIF myself, and like you I found it somewhat underwhelming. I only tried it once in a casual game against a relatively soft Astra Militarum list that my friend was running. It was part of a DBC with a Hunter Cadre as core (including a Stormsurge). I also had a drone net and a Razorshark (because I wanted to try it). I ended up winning pretty handily, but it was the Stormsurge that did most of the work, rather than the RIF.

I definitely want to try out the Retaliation Cadre sometime. I've never actually run one before, but if I wanted to run one as core in a DBC I wouldn't be able to run my Stormsurge, and that's a no-no for me in tourney play. If I had a couple more Riptides or Ghostkeels, I might consider leaving the Surge out, but as it is I usually need its firepower.

It's also nice to see people getting good mileage out of Crisis suits. I don't own enough of them to create the classic "Farsight Bomb" or "Crisis Bomb" as it's called nowadays, but I do enjoy running a squad of 3 with 2x plasma and EWO on each, and solo ones are good for popping tanks. I may pick up another Start Collecting box, as I could definitely use more Crisis suits, and the infantry could come in handy for something too.

Interesting report, to be sure. I don't think I've ever seen anyone go with a RIF, so that was nice to see. I've been mulling over MSU Crisis Suit lists, and I'd really like to include the RC because relentless Broadsides are badass. Using target locks is a good idea, but losing EWO on Broadsides is pretty tough for me to swallow. I suppose it's worth a shot, though, if you're running a unit of 3 of them which would overkill just about anything it shot at.

 Plainshow wrote:
Since he's a FMC the GW FAQ nerfed that option (Page 7):
Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

thankyou for that GW. I no longer have a reason to get another.

I was reading through the Tau coded and I have a question; how much does a unit with two Ghostkeels cost? If I'm reading the entry right, it is 520 before upgrades. . . And that can't be right?

 carldooley wrote:
I was reading through the Tau coded and I have a question; how much does a unit with two Ghostkeels cost? If I'm reading the entry right, it is 520 before upgrades. . . And that can't be right?

A ghostkeel is 130 points before upgrades

 Jancoran wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I was reading through the Tau coded and I have a question; how much does a unit with two Ghostkeels cost? If I'm reading the entry right, it is 520 before upgrades. . . And that can't be right?

A ghostkeel is 130 points before upgrades

Thanks for that. \sarcasm

I checked the FAQ and errata, so apparently it stands. The first ghostkeel is 130, true. But what does the line say about adding more?

You may include up to two additional Ghostkeel Shas'vre, each with two MV5 Stealth Drones. . . \\. . . 130 pts/model

so. . .
first ghostkeel is 130, granted.
the second costs 130 also, yes; but each of the drones cost 130 each also.

Uh...I think it's fairly obvious that they mean the cost of a Ghostkeel and its drones is 130 pts.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Uh...I think it's fairly obvious that they mean the cost of a Ghostkeel and its drones is 130 pts.

RAI possibly, but not RAW.

It's very much RAW. Each Ghostkeel comes with two of its drones for 130 pts before upgrades.

 Buzzdady wrote:
It's very much RAW. Each Ghostkeel comes with two of its drones for 130 pts before upgrades.

that isn't what the entry says.

I don't think i've ever heard of another player, anywhere on DakkaDakka, EVER, having the issue you're having. Its abundantly clear that the Ghost Keel, and additional ones (with their non-optional, totally in-built two Stealth Drones), are 130pts base.

Dude, you're overthinking things.

1. "You can add up to two additional Ghostkeel Shas'vre", which means that those points are for them, as they're the subject of the verb 'add'.
2. "each with two MV5 Stealth Drones", meaning that each Ghostkeel you bought comes with 2 drones.

If your line of reasoning was right, the initial Ghostkeel unit (Ghostkeel + 2 drones) would cost whooping 390p itself! Does it make sense? No!

Also, ALL drones in Tau codex have their own entry on how to add them. They wouldn't put those drones in the same upgrade row of Ghostkeels if they meant for them to be bought separately.

Finally, how could you ever think those fimsly drones could cost 130p EACH???

I'm sorry, but there's no way you can think 130p per drone is RAW.