Well it's about time to get one of these rolling now with most of the codex spoiled.
So what are the early thoughts rolling around in people's minds? Personally I can't wait to run the optimised stealth Cadre. Finally get some use out of the 16 stealth suits I have.
I'm planning on taking a breacher team in a devilfish with darkstrider with a couple of stealth teams on either side of the board with positional relays.
Ouflank on a side of your choice, fish moves 6", disembark 6", if your in a hunter cadre run D6", then you should be within 5" and able to unload your S6 AP3 shots instant deathing T4 models because of darkstrider, then the opponent charges you and you overwatch and retreat D6" before the opponent charges. A little pricey but should hit hard and be a pain to handle.
Darkstrider might become real popular in general if the Structural Analyzer is unchanged and the Hunter Contingent "fire as one unit" ability works as described by the leaks we've seen.
Even a fully kitted wolf star won't want to face down a whole Tau gunlines' worth of shooting when they're sharing Markerlights and everything is at -1T
The most recent clarifications I'm aware of suggest that you need to be within 12" of the Commander to be able to Run then Shoot through the Hunter Cadre special rules.
On the plus side of that clarification, Vehicles were not left out in the extra mobility: Vehicles within 12" can Flat Out then Shoot.
That means that Hunter Cadre Hammerhead squadrons that end their move within 12" of the Commander are mobile again.
Yeah the stealth cadre is nuts. I think you can fit two in an 1850 without being too unbalanced (and that is literally how I wanted to play Tau even before these formations came out). I'm also anticipating having a good time with breacher squads getting all up in people's faces.
The loss of obsec (especially if you want to bring along transport toys) isn't nothing, and people keep forgetting about that each time a decurion-style detachment comes out. I still field Necron and Eldar CADs because they are just superior (IMO) with obsec. Of course, if you can field 4 Wraithknights, maybe not so much, but with a 0-1 limit on LOW squads, I think it's pretty reasonable.
I think you'll also see a lot of the stealth cadre with TauDar/other allies. It's that good.
What I wonder is if markerlights will become more or less necessary. With +1 BS for the stealth cadre, as well as full squads of broadsides and riptides, as well as buffmander giving everyone all the special rules (TL, ignores cover, etc) and being able to share markerlights if you're shooting at the same unit, I feel like you can get away with a good amount less.
luke1705 wrote: Yeah the stealth cadre is nuts. I think you can fit two in an 1850 without being too unbalanced (and that is literally how I wanted to play Tau even before these formations came out). I'm also anticipating having a good time with breacher squads getting all up in people's faces.
The loss of obsec (especially if you want to bring along transport toys) isn't nothing, and people keep forgetting about that each time a decurion-style detachment comes out. I still field Necron and Eldar CADs because they are just superior (IMO) with obsec. Of course, if you can field 4 Wraithknights, maybe not so much, but with a 0-1 limit on LOW squads, I think it's pretty reasonable.
I think you'll also see a lot of the stealth cadre with TauDar/other allies. It's that good.
What I wonder is if markerlights will become more or less necessary. With +1 BS for the stealth cadre, as well as full squads of broadsides and riptides, as well as buffmander giving everyone all the special rules (TL, ignores cover, etc) and being able to share markerlights if you're shooting at the same unit, I feel like you can get away with a good amount less.
Which is a good thing considering there is still not a reliable method of marker lights. Pathfinders die immediately. Tetras are ok, but are FW, cost more $, and also die very quickly. Skyrays are sturdy, but cost a lot of points for 2 marker lights.
I disagree. The Marker drones with Buffmander are awesome and the Sniper Drone Teams with Marksmen are equally worthy. Pathfinders are my assassins, not my markerlights.
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Jancoran wrote: I disagree. The Marker drones with Buffmander are awesome and the Sniper Drone Teams with Marksmen are equally worthy. Pathfinders are my assassins, not my markerlights.
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Except with the new codex, marker drones are wasted with buffmander because those marker lights will not affect any other units that shoot along with the buffmanders squad via the hunters contingent rules
Hawkeye888 wrote: The kroot/vespid one will be benefit for when I feel like being crazy and play in vespid.
I really can't wait to try out Outflanking Vespid with the board corner Positional Relay gimmick to see if I don't need to invest in deep striking suits or that one random warlord trait to give my Kroot blobs some immediate anti Heavy Infantry support.
Spoiler:
I also can't wait to get my army back from FL so I can actually do something. This drought has been a bit of a nuisance for my free time
Explain. The intent would not be to have the commander fire anything nor to fire WITH anyone. So... I don't see your point. Yet.
With the new codex, inside a Hunter Contingent, if 2+ units combine their fire to shoot against a target, they combine their special rules regarding shooting as well. So Monster Hunter, Ignores Cover, re-roll to hit (not Twin-Linked), etc. Also, they share markerlight usage - both enjoy the +1BS/ML, instead of needing to spend one for each unit.
Meaning that, if Buffmander and other unit (which he's not joined to) targets a enemy unit, this unit gets his bonuses. As they share markerlights, it's not a good idea to have ML-sources fire MLs at an enemy the same time other units are combining fire with them. Unless yo'ure using Remoras/Sky Rays for marking, let your ML sources fire first, and only then start combining fire.
In the end, this means that Buffmander isn't the best Mark'O anymore; a separate commander (you can easily have 3 in a Hunter Contingent) should be doing that.
Therion wrote: So, have all the 'Tau suck now, screw GW' guys apologized for their ridiculous and premature threads and posts?
The Tau formations seem extremely powerful. Other changes are great too. In fact Tau look very good.
There was one guy who thought Tau were going to suck... he's gone now.
Tau have mostly the same rules, but there are plenty of additions that change things up in a good way. Honestly, I like the changes. If I were to sustain brain damage and forget that I hate GW as a company, I would definitely buy some Tau stuff.
Also, apparently the Stormsurge is a very good unit. Very capable of taking out entire units on its own - as long as you use the pulse driver. The blastcannon is too close-range.
Explain. The intent would not be to have the commander fire anything nor to fire WITH anyone. So... I don't see your point. Yet.
With the new codex, inside a Hunter Contingent, if 2+ units combine their fire to shoot against a target, they combine their special rules regarding shooting as well. So Monster Hunter, Ignores Cover, re-roll to hit (not Twin-Linked), etc. Also, they share markerlight usage - both enjoy the +1BS/ML, instead of needing to spend one for each unit.
Meaning that, if Buffmander and other unit (which he's not joined to) targets a enemy unit, this unit gets his bonuses. As they share markerlights, it's not a good idea to have ML-sources fire MLs at an enemy the same time other units are combining fire with them. Unless yo'ure using Remoras/Sky Rays for marking, let your ML sources fire first, and only then start combining fire.
In the end, this means that Buffmander isn't the best Mark'O anymore; a separate commander (you can easily have 3 in a Hunter Contingent) should be doing that.
You forgot to mention that when 3+ units fire together, all models in those units get +1BS.
BoomWolf wrote: Can't take strider in the formations.
And the run and gun only works 12" from commander.
No epic resurgence of the fish of fury.
It's not bad, at all, but it's not as brutal as it could be.
Well, for less than 200p you can get Darkstrider there (CAD)
And with no access to things like Tetras, Y'Havra's or Skyrays in the basic Taucurion (well for Skyrays, without paying an arm and a leg) it's probably worthwhile in some lists
Well I plan on running (in tournament competitive games only) the optimized stealth cadre, with 2 minimized 3 man stealth teams and a full 3 man (and 6 drones) ghostkeel squadron with ion rakers, twin-linked fusion blasters, early warning overrides, and velocity trackers. It's expensive but consider the following...
The formation bonus gives them BS 4, and having a full 3 ghostkeels means that the fireteam bonus kicks in and gives them BS 5. If a flyer comes in within 24" (or even better 18") or less, you can intercept them with 18 strength 7 shots (and 3 twin-linked strength 8 shots within 18") that hit on 2+, hit their rear armour, and prevent jink saves because they ignore cover... On avarage, this will kill an entire 3 vendetta squadron before they even fire a shot...
Explain. The intent would not be to have the commander fire anything nor to fire WITH anyone. So... I don't see your point. Yet.
With the new codex, inside a Hunter Contingent, if 2+ units combine their fire to shoot against a target, they combine their special rules regarding shooting as well. So Monster Hunter, Ignores Cover, re-roll to hit (not Twin-Linked), etc. Also, they share markerlight usage - both enjoy the +1BS/ML, instead of needing to spend one for each unit.
Meaning that, if Buffmander and other unit (which he's not joined to) targets a enemy unit, this unit gets his bonuses. As they share markerlights, it's not a good idea to have ML-sources fire MLs at an enemy the same time other units are combining fire with them. Unless yo'ure using Remoras/Sky Rays for marking, let your ML sources fire first, and only then start combining fire.
In the end, this means that Buffmander isn't the best Mark'O anymore; a separate commander (you can easily have 3 in a Hunter Contingent) should be doing that.
uh... I still don't see a word of this mattering to my point. And i was, again, not referring to any specific contingent or formation. I think I'll have to agree to continue to being confused on what you're saying.
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luke1705 wrote: Definitely the way to go if you want to kill...you know....anything. Not the way to make friends though
Well you could just let Flying Daemon Circus's end you instead? Lol. Look. There is a point at which good will to all men ends. nd right now, with whats being fielded COMPETITIVELY, you can either be a doner or a player. Or the third category, who i hate: an incessant whiner who hates change. But obviously none of those exist on forums, so that's good.
I am not known for my power builds. I am in fact known on my blog for unorthodoxy. But I think its a bit of hyperbole to say this is going to end friendships when ultimately, melee does the same thing to Tau that it always did: neutralizes them.
ONE Marine squad can tie them up for much longer than they want to think about. cost vs. benefit? pretty good. So it will come down to whether the enemy force is balanced and mobile enough to actually do it. But thats their fault if it isnt. Mobility and assault are back in 7th Edition, so anyone whose not gotten that memo gets what they get anyways.
Won't even necessarily need Markerlights anymore now that you can just apply your Buffmander to your whole army whenever you need to.
Kinda shocked there's no range requirement on the Hunter Contingent combined fire ability; "who can still shoot" doesn't even imply an ability to reach the current target, just that they haven't already fired that turn. You could hypothetically park your Buffmander in a Bastion in the corner and have him selectively decide who he's helping that turn.
And to think, we just got rid of Buffmander-supported Riptides. Now we have Buffmander-supported Riptide squadrons .
Jancoran wrote: Ignoring cover thing is kinda a big deal. You need Markerlights.
And buffmander can do that too lol. Anyone else in your army who shoots at the same target as your buffmander unit get all his abilities. And if 3 or more units shoot then all get +1BS in addition lol. So broken
Loving that Retaliation Cadre. My playstyle is all about my Fire Warriors, Hammerheads, and Pathfinders forming the anvil of my force while my Crisis Suits deep strike in to be the hammer that breaks the advancing enemy. Having reliable turn 2 deep strike with +1 BS is amazing. Relelntless Broadsides is just gravy (and somewhat hilarious to see Broadsides deep strike in somehow). What I don't like though is the amount of mandatory Commanders between the Command, Hunter Cadre, and the Retaliation Cadre. I don't see the Command detachment being of much use when you can take a cheap CAD to get your Ethereal and/or any other HQ you want (Darkstrider might become a god now)......
Wait a minute, does the combined shooting interact with Supporting Fire?
luke1705 wrote: Definitely the way to go if you want to kill...you know....anything. Not the way to make friends though
Well you could just let Flying Daemon Circus's end you instead? Lol. Look. There is a point at which good will to all men ends. nd right now, with whats being fielded COMPETITIVELY, you can either be a doner or a player. Or the third category, who i hate: an incessant whiner who hates change. But obviously none of those exist on forums, so that's good.
I am not known for my power builds. I am in fact known on my blog for unorthodoxy. But I think its a bit of hyperbole to say this is going to end friendships when ultimately, melee does the same thing to Tau that it always did: neutralizes them.
ONE Marine squad can tie them up for much longer than they want to think about. cost vs. benefit? pretty good. So it will come down to whether the enemy force is balanced and mobile enough to actually do it. But thats their fault if it isnt. Mobility and assault are back in 7th Edition, so anyone whose not gotten that memo gets what they get anyways.
I completely agree. I was just more getting at that something like that is very much a competitive build. Great, but comes with a disclaimer - understand that with great power comes great responsibility. I too like using unorthodox builds and am not apologetic about the power level of my lists. I list-build with tournament competitiveness in mind. You just don't want your 5 year old kid picking up a light saber thinking its a pool noodle.
People who think that the Taucurion is OP don't understand that Tau are minimally mobile, awful at maelstrom generally because of this, have no psychic presence and no assault ability that is worth writing home about. So, yeah, they should be able to shoot better than almost any other army
Jancoran wrote: Ignoring cover thing is kinda a big deal. You need Markerlights.
Buffmander gives Ignore Cover.
Hmmm. Only if he himself doesn't fire, no?
How is the rule phrased? If a unit fires, or if a model fires?
Coordinated Firepower wrote:Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase... These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities.
In other words, if several units with target locks join up, the models with target locks would still get the benefits of being in the unit.
Wait a minute, does the combined shooting interact with Supporting Fire?
I wish. Only works in the shooting phase, so no to overwatch and no to interceptor
I would send that to YMDC actually. It sounds very similar to all the other Shooting Phase contingent rules, which some people expect to work just when shooting (Heavy, Multi-Trackers, ect) and some don't.
I'm expecting Forgeworld to (eventually) release an errata showing where their Tau units can be placed in the Hunter Contingent, similar to the Lord of War.
luke1705 wrote: Not necessary. The rule specifies the shooting phase
As does multi-trackers, monstrous creatures firing two weapons, how many shots Heavy weapons can fire, then there are MSSS and CnCN which say they can be used in the shooting phase, but not in overwatch, which shouldn't even be mentioned if it only worked in the "shooting phase".
You can see how it can get a bit odd.
What is the opposite position? Is it the shooting phase? No? Then no benefit is provided.
Not trying to be pedantic or contrarian, but it's about as black and white as it gets. I understand why they think it might work, but explicitly it does not
luke1705 wrote: Not necessary. The rule specifies the shooting phase
As does multi-trackers, monstrous creatures firing two weapons, how many shots Heavy weapons can fire, then there are MSSS and CnCN which say they can be used in the shooting phase, but not in overwatch, which shouldn't even be mentioned if it only worked in the "shooting phase".
You can see how it can get a bit odd.
To me, that's just an example of bad rules writing. But Rules As Softly Implied doesn't mean that you can do it unless you get explicit permission to do so
luke1705 wrote: What is the opposite position? Is it the shooting phase? No? Then no benefit is provided.
Not trying to be pedantic or contrarian, but it's about as black and white as it gets. I understand why they think it might work, but explicitly it does not
To me, that's just an example of bad rules writing. But Rules As Softly Implied doesn't mean that you can do it unless you get explicit permission to do so
/end YMDC rant/
The shooting phase rules outside of the shooting phase have never been black and white, they have been the murkies part of the rules since all of the shooting rules are contingent on the shooting phase (Heavy weapons and how many weapons you are restricted to firing).
I do think it is time to move this to YMDC.
Bodyguards are only mandatory in the 'Contingent Headquarters' Command option (which is a 0-1 choice) - which isn't a formation btw. It's the only way to get Ethereals in the Taucurion, so if you want Ethereals or an extra Commander then you have to take Bodyguards.
Hey, all! I'm a long-time lurker and have been following the latest Tau rumors avidly. Now that we have something reasonably concrete to work with in the way of army lists, I admit I'm pretty stoked for this release. I share most people's disappointment with the continued relative uselessness of heavy rail rifles, Devilfish, our flyers, and Vespids, but I'm glad we got a few useful and interesting units to play with. The formations, though, are clearly the meat of this update. I spent more of my Saturday than I probably should have mulling over some of the myriad new army list and tactical possibilities, and a few things really stand out to me.
First and foremost, the formations and their bonuses are freakin' sweet. At first glance, I'd say they at least bump Tau back into the competitive play mix and give us several different lists that can potentially go deep in the field against tough competition. While the standard CAD certainly gets buffed from the new release, I think the Hunter Cadre is pretty clearly the way to go as your primary detachment. Supporting fire was already pretty intense, but extending it to 12" makes charging a pretty daunting task for your opponent. At the very least, he'll have to chuck a throw-away unit at you to eat overwatch if he doesn't want a healthy chunk of his assault unit taken out before it even does anything, assuming it can even still reach your lines. Running and shooting obviously promotes a more mobile style of play and goes a long way, in my opinion, toward legitimizing non-gunline lists. Probably the most glaring perk, though, is the ability to combine units and share their buffs. I'm anxious to see the exact verbiage of that rule, but I am quite confident we can (and should!) abuse the poop out of it. Tau were always fairly good at force multiplication, and now we're bordering on absurd.
The new units make me happy. The Stormsurge isn't my favorite model in the world, but I like the giant missile robot theme a lot. It seems to be costed reasonably, unlike many of the recent gargantuan units. I'm thinking that 400+ pts (because who is seriously going to take one without a shield generator?) is better spent elsewhere, but 2 S10 AP2 large blasts a turn supported by a ridiculous amount of small arms fire is nothing to sneeze at. I'll likely proxy it a few times to try it out before dropping the cash for one. Breachers are intriguing to me. I see them as an easy solution to MSU marine armies since they'll threaten both the marines themselves and the Razorbacks they come in/beside. The run/shoot rules make them quite a lot more dangerous due to the threat range increase, but it's a shame that Devilfish are still horribly overcosted. It would have been really nice to revive the old Fish of Fury tactic. I anticipate that ramming a bunch of these guys down your opponent's throat will yield decent results. Ghostkeels are my favorite of the bunch. In fact, I see them becoming a staple of competitive Tau lists. They're sort of like a mobile, more durable alternative to Broadsides. Given the crazy amount of synergy Tau units have now, the fact that Ghostkeels' weapons are pretty plain in terms of special rules can be spun as a boon since you don't have to pay extra points for twin-linked weapons, ignoring cover, etc.
Speaking of unit synergy, a buffmander - or possibly a buff Crisis Bodyguard - seems like an auto-take now. 135 pts essentially allows you to delete any unit you want every turn, from anywhere on the table. As long as you can see it, it's probably going to die. Darkstrider got a HUGE buff, but since he isn't anywhere to be found in the Hunter Cadre, he isn't nearly as automatic, in my book. That said, dropping the popular death stars down to T4 is a big deal. Taking an allied CAD (or allied contingent) allows you access to Skyrays and Tetras, however, as others noted. Marker lights are clearly still very important, but with the shared buffs, you probably don't need quite as many of them. Of course, you'll have to balance need with durability, for taking too few markerlight sources ensures that the ones you do have are going to poof rather quickly. Overall, I see balancing points spent on force multipliers vs the rest of the army as a significant struggle for Tau now. How much buffing/debuffing is enough? It's a good problem to have, I suppose.
Last but not least, the Optimised Stealth Cadre...wow. I'm willing to bet this formation is the new FBSC and will find its way into lots of competitive non-Tau lists, in one form or another. Load the Ghostkeels up with velocity trackers and EWO, like chalkobob said, and you'll mulch pretty much anything that comes within range. Point them in the same direction as your buffmander for serious overkill. Stealth suits still aren't my favorite, even with BS4 and hitting rear armor, but at least they're decent with those buffs. I don't consider them a costly tax, at least on paper.
Personally, I think I'm going to opt for (or at least rigorously try out) a very aggressive style of play that involves maximum mobility and midfield control. Pressure with Breachers and fusion suits will be the name of my game with bulk and possibly emergency CC support(!) provided by Ghostkeels.
Operating under the assumption that points costs for everything are essentially staying the same, I'm thinking something like this might be nice for 1850:
I'm making the possibly tenuous assumption that a buffmander with a target lock can target a different unit than the marker drones and still give the rest of the army his buffs. I also don't know what sorts of upgrades the strike teams can get. If they can have a portable missile pod like Breachers can, that'd be a worthwhile purchase, for sure. You could lose some troops for Fire Warrior upgrades, or possibly to get more crisis suits. I sense, though, that being able to combine units' firepower is going to see a resurgence in Tau troops' usefulness. It's pretty awesome to unload a ton of BS5 S5 shots on...well, anything. All you need is 1 unit's marker light support to make your troops killing machines. The Breachers are in units of 7 since that allows them to comfortably dispatch a unit of 5 marines without any support. That list obviously is not particularly refined, but it's something to work with, I suppose.
In any event, I'm really looking forward to playing with this book.
Edit for combined fire rule ninja: Totally awesome.
Theres so many formation shenanigans now. I was kinda shocked they didnt really buff anybody in the codex. Only static change was Riptides, Hammerheads, and Skyrays getting squads of 3 + Fireteam and crisis suits 1-9.
Then the formations popped up. Hooooly crap. If we didnt have the super formation, many of them werent be very good. But the big formation gives them a whole new purpose (thinking mainly of the formation that lets reserves come in automatically when one dies).
Optimized Stealth is the main one that has my attention. I love stealth suits and ghostkeels. I was already intending on fielding 3 ghostkeels, but when i found stealthsuits didnt change i was sad because theyre too expensive on their own. But that formation....thats just sexy! Stealth suits away!
Vineheart01 wrote: Only static change was Riptides, Hammerheads, and Skyrays getting squads of 3 + Fireteam and crisis suits 1-9.
What do you mean by Crisis Suits gettting 1-9?
And in regards ot all this since I am a Farsight Enclaves player I think I will primarily be playing out of the standard CAD for the most part to take advantage of the Crisis Suits as Troops deal (since talking the Hunter Contingent pretty much makes taking FSE usless in general). However I am going to collect enough to run the Optimized Stealth Cadre, love the Ghostkeel model and this gives me an excuse to pick up x3 of them and some Stealth Suits.
Regarding the overwatch thing i'm pretty sure Supporting Fire states it only affects MODEL's within 6", not sure if that changes in the new codex.
Also just to help me get my head around this, if i have longstrike, 2 squads of firewarriors and a fireblade and combine their firepower all of them get tank hunter and preferred enemy: guard from Longstrike and both firewarrior units will get an extra shot from the Fireblade and they'll all get +1 ballistic skill making the firewarriors BS4 and the Longstrike BS6?
Supporting fire has always said "all friendly models in UNITS within 6" of a unit being charged" - reason it specifies the model has to have the rule to shoot, not simply be in the unit, is because its possible to not have the entire unit with Supporting Fire. Kroot for instance do not have supporting fire, but if you have a Commander attached (for some reason...) he can still fire.
Crisis suits squads have been changed to include between 1 and 9 models (excluding drones), instead of 1 and 3. Also Airbursting fragmentation projectors and cyclic ion blasters are no longer limited to 1 per army, you could have a 9 man squad of crisis suits with cyclic ion blasters drop down for 54 strength 7 AP 4 shots potentially. Though it would be hard to drop a unit that big, especially with the new base sizes.
Crisis suits squads have been changed to include between 1 and 9 models (excluding drones), instead of 1 and 3. Also Airbursting fragmentation projectors and cyclic ion blasters are no longer limited to 1 per army, you could have a 9 man squad of crisis suits with cyclic ion blasters drop down for 54 strength 7 AP 4 shots potentially. Though it would be hard to drop a unit that big, especially with the new base sizes.
...are you serious, I can have a 9 man squad of Crisis Suits?! Holy GAK!!!
Crisis suits squads have been changed to include between 1 and 9 models (excluding drones), instead of 1 and 3. Also Airbursting fragmentation projectors and cyclic ion blasters are no longer limited to 1 per army, you could have a 9 man squad of crisis suits with cyclic ion blasters drop down for 54 strength 7 AP 4 shots potentially. Though it would be hard to drop a unit that big, especially with the new base sizes.
Crisis suits squads have been changed to include between 1 and 9 models (excluding drones), instead of 1 and 3. Also Airbursting fragmentation projectors and cyclic ion blasters are no longer limited to 1 per army, you could have a 9 man squad of crisis suits with cyclic ion blasters drop down for 54 strength 7 AP 4 shots potentially. Though it would be hard to drop a unit that big, especially with the new base sizes.
That's what through boldness, victory is for
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That would indeed help for sure, however though I do think x9 Crisis Suits is definitley unweildy on the table, now running them in squads of x6 however seems like a much more feasable and tactically sound option. Not only could you get more teams kitted out different ways but the unit would be so abnormally large to make it difficult to deepstrike.
Even with that it'd be pretty difficult. 50mm bases are too damn big for crisis suits. Not to mention 60mm for commanders, who despite being so massive with their new model are still T4 or lacking EW.
9 50mm bases and a 60mm without the drones is a huuuuuuge footprint. If theres a place you can safely land such a squad, you arent using enough terrain. The game is suppose to have a lot more terrain than most people use, which is why gunline armies are so crazy powerful. Thats not including drones, obviously.
They should have made the crisis suits use the small oval bases (forget the size). The one thats basically the 40mm base but has an oval shape, so its wider than 40mm.
Keep in mind that the combined fire rule is all about minimum size squads. 3 squads of 3 crisis all shooting at the same target get a free +1BS, whereas 1 group of 9 does not
Its funny. Looking at the datasheets alone, it seems they want us to buy more models for larger units to maximize ML support or buffmanders.
But the formations are the exact opposite. Unless im missing something, why on earth would you run a squad of 3 riptides when you can easily run 3 solo riptides while still being within the boundaries of the various formations, have them be either totally independent (thus no wasted supp slot on target locks) or focus fire and get BOTH Fire Team and Combined Fire rules for a BS5!
Kinda confused which they wanted us to do rofl. Still think Fireteam was written badly and thats the main reason most of these shenanigans exist.
MilkmanAl wrote: Taking an allied CAD (or allied contingent) allows you access to Skyrays and Tetras, however, as others noted.
Can't do that unless you've got a third, non-Tau detachment in your army to pull your Warlord from; you can't take an Allied Detachment that's from the same faction as your primary.
Vineheart01 wrote: But the big formation gives them a whole new purpose (thinking mainly of the formation that lets reserves come in automatically when one dies).
That Formation is really interesting; it would allow Tau to (essentially) null-deploy when going second at no risk, which would do wonders against other shooty armies (like Scatterbike Eldar or other Tau).
You deploy nothing but a Stealth Team (or Piranha), and then if the enemy kills it, your whole army arrives from reserves at the bottom of 1.
The obvious problem is having to pay for 3 units of Pathfinders and 2 units of non-Optimized Stealth-formation Stealth Suits and a unit of Piranhas. Probably not worth it at that point.
Vineheart01 wrote: Unless im missing something, why on earth would you run a squad of 3 riptides when you can easily run 3 solo riptides while still being within the boundaries of the various formations, have them be either totally independent (thus no wasted supp slot on target locks) or focus fire and get BOTH Fire Team and Combined Fire rules for a BS5!
That's pretty obviously why Fire Team exists. Without the FOC to provide limitations, there's no reason to actually take all of these squadroned vehicles they've been adding, so they add some token bonus--Marine vehicles got the same treatment, where if you take 3 Predators/Whirlwinds/Vindicators, you got a special benefit. MSU is always inherently better than larger squadrons; two units in two places potentially shooting at two things and/or forcing two different things to kill them (which is also why Kill Points exist as a mission concept, to provide some disincentive from pure MSU).
With the old FOC (or CAD) you might run into situations where you'd gladly take 3 Riptides in one slot to keep your other slots free for other things, but that's so rare now that they have to give you some bonus just to try to convince you to do it.
The Marine ones were pretty interesting (particularly the absurd Apoc Blast Ignores Cover Vindicator squadron), but still nobody used any of them. It seems like at this point GW just got lazy and decided to throw +1 BS across the board because nobody's going to bother anyway.
Been thinking of the best ways to run my Crisis Suit teams since you can now take much larger units of them. I am looking at running them out of the Farsight Enclaves Codex to maintain my theme of a Pure/Heavy Suit army which to get the most bang for my buck will probably be me running them out of a standard CAD. What im thinking:
-Maximum x6 Crisis Suits per squad only for certain builds. Where x9 Crisis Suits are definitley to large a footprint and to much of a points sink I feel x6 is a great number to aim for. Not only does it give you a total of x12 Wounds but you also get a good amount of firepower to basically delete whatever you are shooting at. Also you dont have to buy extra boxes or worry about having Suits left over with squads of x6 .
-I also think by taking squads of x6 you would definitley be better off taking mixed weapon loadouts in a lot of cases as compared to dual weapon choices in regards to certain weapons. For example, a unit of x6 Crisis Suits with the "Fireknife" Loadout (Missile Pod + Plasma Gun) would be quite devastating and really give you some tactical flexibility when it came to shooting. Also if you have the points leftover, deciding to add a x1 or x2 Flamers to the squad for Overwatch purposes wouldnt be a bad idea either or even upgrades.
-In regards to certain Crisis Suit builds such as the "Sunforge" (x2 Fusion) or "SoulforgeD8" (x2 Fusion and x1 Flamer) I think sticking to x3 Suits is still your best option. Have them Deepstrike to focus on vehicles or infantry camping on objectives and thanks to being BS4 due to the "Fire Team" Special Rule they have gotten even better at popping vehicles from reserves.
Just some thoughts I have been having on the matter. Also anyone have any idea what would be the best # of Drones to take with a unit of x6 Crisis Suits? Or would it even be worth taking any at all since we can now take them in units of x6?
A small bonus you can get fairly easily for vehicles in the Hunter Contingent is to detach their drones and use them to get +1 BS via 3 units shooting at the same target.
The enemy unit would have to be fairly close, but you probably weren't going to use those drones for much else anyway.
Now that the rules for the piecemeal tidewall have been leaked, it looks like the Hammerhead has been sent further into the "not really worth it" territory. 85 searchlights for a TL railgun that comes with submunitions and if you take 3 for triple the cost, you can fire all three at the same target and either get armorbane for your solid shots or +1 str for the subs.
Sure, they have to stay in the exact formation they started in, but you can still move them 6" a turn.
There's also the Drone port - add some marker drones and put a stormsurge on top and it becomes entirely self-sufficient and mobile despite deploying stabilizers since it doesn't count as moving and you can use the ML drones for the destroyer missiles.
McNinja wrote: Now that the rules for the piecemeal tidewall have been leaked, it looks like the Hammerhead has been sent further into the "not really worth it" territory. 85 searchlights for a TL railgun that comes with submunitions and if you take 3 for triple the cost, you can fire all three at the same target and either get armorbane for your solid shots or +1 str for the subs.
Sure, they have to stay in the exact formation they started in, but you can still move them 6" a turn.
There's also the Drone port - add some marker drones and put a stormsurge on top and it becomes entirely self-sufficient and mobile despite deploying stabilizers since it doesn't count as moving and you can use the ML drones for the destroyer missiles.
You can't fit a riptide in a Drone Port let alone a Stormsurge.
Tau have really been enormously buffed, the more things are coming to light. With an MSU approach (having 3 units always firing at each unit), even so far as taking a lot of one man units, the army is getting basically a free armywide +1 BS. That's crazy. It's a nearly a 17% increase in firepower. The Hunter Contingent units sharing special rules with each other further adds to this. Marker lights will be outrageously powerful now, since multiple units can take advantage of the same one simultaneously. That's a huge damage increase once again.
The army will be really flexible as it can really eliminate any type of unit from the battlefield. It'll win some tournaments, for sure.
Everyone's talking about some really experimental armies, but I'd think the standard triple Riptide double or triple Skyray -template armies will be very good. They've always been good. Now they're just a lot better.
I've never used Gargantuan Creatures before, so I'm not hugely familiar with their rules. I was reading up on them, and I saw they had the Strikedown special rule.
Here's what the Strikedown rule says:
"Any non-vehicle model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds or passes one or more saving throws against an attack with the Strikedown special rule moves as if it is in difficult terrain until the end of its next turn. It is a good idea to mark affected models with counters or coins so that you remember."
The thing is, the -model- has the rule, not any of the weapons, so how does this work?
Dr. Delorean wrote: I've never used Gargantuan Creatures before, so I'm not hugely familiar with their rules. I was reading up on them, and I saw they had the Strikedown special rule.
Here's what the Strikedown rule says:
"Any non-vehicle model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds or passes one or more saving throws against an attack with the Strikedown special rule moves as if it is in difficult terrain until the end of its next turn. It is a good idea to mark affected models with counters or coins so that you remember."
The thing is, the -model- has the rule, not any of the weapons, so how does this work?
Techically, because the rule is on the model not the weapons, Strikedown only applies to the model's melee attacks. And since Strikedown has no real purpose in melee, its functional useless as it exists on the model. Barring an FAQ or Errata, that is.
Dr. Delorean wrote: I've never used Gargantuan Creatures before, so I'm not hugely familiar with their rules. I was reading up on them, and I saw they had the Strikedown special rule.
Here's what the Strikedown rule says:
"Any non-vehicle model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds or passes one or more saving throws against an attack with the Strikedown special rule moves as if it is in difficult terrain until the end of its next turn. It is a good idea to mark affected models with counters or coins so that you remember."
The thing is, the -model- has the rule, not any of the weapons, so how does this work?
Therion wrote: Tau have really been enormously buffed, the more things are coming to light. With an MSU approach (having 3 units always firing at each unit), even so far as taking a lot of one man units, the army is getting basically a free armywide +1 BS. That's crazy. It's a nearly a 17% increase in firepower. The Hunter Contingent units sharing special rules with each other further adds to this. Marker lights will be outrageously powerful now, since multiple units can take advantage of the same one simultaneously. That's a huge damage increase once again.
The army will be really flexible as it can really eliminate any type of unit from the battlefield. It'll win some tournaments, for sure.
Everyone's talking about some really experimental armies, but I'd think the standard triple Riptide double or triple Skyray -template armies will be very good. They've always been good. Now they're just a lot better.
Unfortunately you cannot take very many skyrays in the formation. Only way is 1 skyway with 3 hammerheads.... Kinda weird they didn't make it so you could take them easier
Therion wrote: Tau have really been enormously buffed, the more things are coming to light. With an MSU approach (having 3 units always firing at each unit), even so far as taking a lot of one man units, the army is getting basically a free armywide +1 BS. That's crazy. It's a nearly a 17% increase in firepower. The Hunter Contingent units sharing special rules with each other further adds to this. Marker lights will be outrageously powerful now, since multiple units can take advantage of the same one simultaneously. That's a huge damage increase once again.
The army will be really flexible as it can really eliminate any type of unit from the battlefield. It'll win some tournaments, for sure.
Everyone's talking about some really experimental armies, but I'd think the standard triple Riptide double or triple Skyray -template armies will be very good. They've always been good. Now they're just a lot better.
Unfortunately you cannot take very many skyrays in the formation. Only way is 1 skyway with 3 hammerheads.... Kinda weird they didn't make it so you could take them easier
It's a little less restricted than that, it's three units of hammerheads and one unit of Skyrays, so you could take 3 if you wanted to.
Strikedown is on his melee attacks, same way Smash works.
Problem with Strikedown (or Concussion for that matter) is its a rule you almost never, ever get to use. Nothing has it that i know of that wont obliterate the target anyway, or is immune to it. And of course, Strikedown means nothing in melee which is odd - you'd think it would kill your WS or something since your legs obviously just got crippled if you treat all terrain as difficult terrain so you clearly cant move as fast in combat.
Technically i Strikedown'd a Ctan with my stormsurge (we just decided to let them fight so i didnt shoot it dead first). But it does nothing in melee so big deal.
And on the skyray bit, remember like Dr. Delorean said theyre in squadrons now. GW seems to getting rid of the solo model mentality, even the BIG SUIT is a damn squadron. I wouldnt doubt it if they make all the Nid MCs squadronable too (except the HQs). Heck, if/when they update the Ork dex i'd be shocked if our walkers and even the Stompa didnt become a squadron.
notredameguy10 wrote: Unfortunately you cannot take very many skyrays in the formation. Only way is 1 skyway with 3 hammerheads.... Kinda weird they didn't make it so you could take them easier
It's really not weird at all and is one of the few examples of GW actually putting some forethought into their rules.
With the new combined fire thing, Networked Markerlights are genuinely worth their weight in gold. A Skyray, already one of the best units in the codex, would be literally mandatory under the new rules. So now the only way to get networked markers into the Contingent is to pay for a bunch of Hammerheads (or terrible flyers).
Instead, I expect we'll see a lot of add-on CADs that go:
It would have been nice if skyrays were included in the hunter cadre, but alas they were not. But yeah, I can definitely see a basic CAD being run to get darkstrider and more skyrays.
Seeing CAD's used in general is a positive anyways. My tournaments always allow two detachments, but three if the third one is a CAD. That eliminates a lot of broken things. War convocations and the Company Support special ability for Space Marines both come to mind.
So are people going to be running the hunter cadre? If so, are you doing a min or max one? I can see an argument both ways. Doing a min to save space for more aux formations. But maxing it wouldn't hurt either.
For about 750 you can get into one with min troops, a riptide, and a unit of broadsides. That might be pretty good at that point level.
Because you can't even come close to fulling up the core hunter cadre alone in 2000 points.
A "full" hunter cadre can contain commander, 9 bodyguards, 27 crisis, 72 strikers in 6 Devilfish, 72 drones and 9 hammerheads.
The formation is seriously not limited by size, only choices.
Sticking to a CAD. I prefer my FW suits and Tetras along with a couple formations. I have been waiting on something like the Stealth suit formation for years.
Because you can't even come close to fulling up the core hunter cadre alone in 2000 points.
A "full" hunter cadre can contain commander, 9 bodyguards, 27 crisis, 72 strikers in 6 Devilfish, 72 drones and 9 hammerheads.
The formation is seriously not limited by size, only choices.
This is wrong because you are required to take a bunch more stuff than just some troops, bodyguards, and a commander. It is incredibly easy to fill 2000 points with the hunter cadre alone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I look at the hunter Cadre, the more I'm convinced I just want to run CADs.
What if you have O'Vesa join a unit of optimized stealth suits from the formation? Does he gain the formation benefits? It sounds like it means just the suits gain the benefit, but it looks like it's saying that the whole unit benefits...and when you're an IC.....
Thats a pretty sneaky loophole now that i think about it.
ICs joining a squad has never changed its classification, so they would still be considered Stealth Suits. Everyone already assumed people would be slapping Shadowsun in there for a duo of BS6 meltas to a vehicle's butt, so why not another IC?
Then again, arent you required to have Farsight be your warlord to get Ovesa? Im not sure how you could get him as a warlord and still bring this formation, since Farsight Enclaves are considered allies to Tau Empire.
Then again, arent you required to have Farsight be your warlord to get Ovesa? Im not sure how you could get him as a warlord and still bring this formation, since Farsight Enclaves are considered allies to Tau Empire.
While you need Farsight to get O'Vesa, all you need is a FSE CAD and this formation.
Ovesa isnt easy to pick off since he is a riptide, and Stealthsuits are only easily removed up close and personal unless you face the oddball that actually brings hard counters to them (if they even have them available) Ghostkeels already force the stealthsuits to deploy near your deployment zone anyway since they dont have infiltrate (oddly enough)
Dont forget Ovesa has two drones he is required to take. So if somethind DOES actually pen his armor and threaten him, 2+ look out sir ftw.
On that note, i kinda wish they'd put a blip about IC's that are MCs can join squads of MCs. Then again i think thats pretty much a Tau benefit only so doubt that'd happen.
Then again, arent you required to have Farsight be your warlord to get Ovesa? Im not sure how you could get him as a warlord and still bring this formation, since Farsight Enclaves are considered allies to Tau Empire.
While you need Farsight to get O'Vesa, all you need is a FSE CAD and this formation.
Why can't O'Vesa join the unit of suits during deployment?
Infiltration rule bullcrap. ICs cannot join units with Infiltrate and vice versa (faq adds that last bit). Which is completely stupid. It should be "If an IC joins a unit with Infiltration and doesnt have it himself, the unit cannot Infiltrate and vice versa" Makes no sense that you are forced to deploy one or the other without the IC in the group, even though they still deploy right next to each other to ensure they can group up asap.
Once the game starts, no restriction. Its deployment that its a problem.
I like how they do it though. there are certain things that really aren't intended and if you want to do them, fine. But there's risk. I dunno. It seems like any time the rules dont let you do something silly, someone doesnt like it but honestly if 6E taught me anything, its that the world DOES need Dungeon Masters. Good ones. Lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Infiltration rule bullcrap. ICs cannot join units with Infiltrate and vice versa (faq adds that last bit).
Which is completely stupid. It should be "If an IC joins a unit with Infiltration and doesnt have it himself, the unit cannot Infiltrate and vice versa"
Makes no sense that you are forced to deploy one or the other without the IC in the group, even though they still deploy right next to each other to ensure they can group up asap.
Once the game starts, no restriction. Its deployment that its a problem.
I always assumed that that was only the case if the unit with the special rule was actually deploying via infiltration. If you're not actually infiltrating, are you sure that there's actually a restriction? The obvious intent was to stop an IC from conferring infiltrate onto a squad and vice versa. But if you deploy a group of models with the "infiltrate" special rule normally during your standard deployment, are they still "infiltrators"? I don't think so. I think the term "infiltrator" could be defined as "a model in the act/process of infiltrating".
Now, am I going to run O'Vesa? Probably not. But it would be interesting to make O'Vesa star 2.0, if that's possible. Just so see how things might be different now.
Admittedly most people probably wouldnt care, but technically you cant deploy infiltrate units normally. The rules say they "are" deployed differently, not "may" and people love hanging on those words. Only option it gives is if you want them in reserves.
Which is why i play logically not RAW. Crap like that that makes absolutely no sense that you can or cant do it doesnt fly for me.
Is there any definitive information about how the ruling on the TAU tidewall for units that don't fit on the battlements or droneport area? For 265 points its really expensive, and I feel it's only worth it if I can use it with missilesides to protect them from mawlocs and S8 ap2, but I am not sure how well they fit on there. The KV128 Stormsurge could also be placed on top of the drone port, to allow it to move around when in siege mode, but it would look shady as poo. Even if these things were allowed, and I think the shield/barricade is an excelent place to put pathfinders, I am still not sure if 265 points is worth it.
I have seen very little discussion around the Stormsurge, is it not considered to be a good? I mean, obviously it's good, but is it worth the point cost. I also noticed one place that the missiles on the Stormsurge get upgraded from S8 to SD if you expend markerlight markers in the new codex. Is this true, and how OP is this potentially?
I really want to run the new Hunter Contingent, but I have no idea what to put in a Hunter Cardre. I usually play with a Farsight enclave army, and I have no idea how to use 3 units of firewarriors. Breachers would be good, but without over priced devilfish or some kind of infiltrate (they don't right?) or deep strike then I am not sure how to get them into 5". Really love the idea of a support commander in this formation, but I will miss the MLs from the dronemander and since I want to use one of the two heavy support slots for KV128, that means I only have room for 1 Sky ray.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I am stupid, just realized that Sky rays can be taken in units of 3 in the new codex, so one heavy support slot is enough, How I will get the points for everything is another matter.
Acidian wrote: Is there any definitive information about how the ruling on the TAU tidewall for units that don't fit on the battlements or droneport area? For 265 points its really expensive, and I feel it's only worth it if I can use it with missilesides to protect them from mawlocs and S8 ap2, but I am not sure how well they fit on there. The KV128 Stormsurge could also be placed on top of the drone port, to allow it to move around when in siege mode, but it would look shady as poo. Even if these things were allowed, and I think the shield/barricade is an excelent place to put pathfinders, I am still not sure if 265 points is worth it.
I have seen very little discussion around the Stormsurge, is it not considered to be a good? I mean, obviously it's good, but is it worth the point cost. I also noticed one place that the missiles on the Stormsurge get upgraded from S8 to SD if you expend markerlight markers in the new codex. Is this true, and how OP is this potentially?
I really want to run the new Hunter Contingent, but I have no idea what to put in a Hunter Cardre. I usually play with a Farsight enclave army, and I have no idea how to use 3 units of firewarriors. Breachers would be good, but without over priced devilfish or some kind of infiltrate (they don't right?) or deep strike then I am not sure how to get them into 5". Really love the idea of a support commander in this formation, but I will miss the MLs from the dronemander and since I want to use one of the two heavy support slots for KV128, that means I only have room for 1 Sky ray.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I am stupid, just realized that Sky rays can be taken in units of 3 in the new codex, so one heavy support slot is enough, How I will get the points for everything is another matter.
Not sure about the tidewall, but I am sure about the stormsurge. From what I've heard, the people who have used them in games have found them to be incredible, nearly game-winning, units.
Acidian wrote: Is there any definitive information about how the ruling on the TAU tidewall for units that don't fit on the battlements or droneport area? For 265 points its really expensive, and I feel it's only worth it if I can use it with missilesides to protect them from mawlocs and S8 ap2, but I am not sure how well they fit on there. The KV128 Stormsurge could also be placed on top of the drone port, to allow it to move around when in siege mode, but it would look shady as poo. Even if these things were allowed, and I think the shield/barricade is an excelent place to put pathfinders, I am still not sure if 265 points is worth it.
I have seen very little discussion around the Stormsurge, is it not considered to be a good? I mean, obviously it's good, but is it worth the point cost. I also noticed one place that the missiles on the Stormsurge get upgraded from S8 to SD if you expend markerlight markers in the new codex. Is this true, and how OP is this potentially?
I really want to run the new Hunter Contingent, but I have no idea what to put in a Hunter Cardre. I usually play with a Farsight enclave army, and I have no idea how to use 3 units of firewarriors. Breachers would be good, but without over priced devilfish or some kind of infiltrate (they don't right?) or deep strike then I am not sure how to get them into 5". Really love the idea of a support commander in this formation, but I will miss the MLs from the dronemander and since I want to use one of the two heavy support slots for KV128, that means I only have room for 1 Sky ray.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I am stupid, just realized that Sky rays can be taken in units of 3 in the new codex, so one heavy support slot is enough, How I will get the points for everything is another matter.
Not sure about the tidewall, but I am sure about the stormsurge. From what I've heard, the people who have used them in games have found them to be incredible, nearly game-winning, units.
I am bringing one no matter what, since I love it's look, so I guess I will find out for myself. Only thing I wish is that they had learned from people doing missileside conversions that putting missile batteries on the back/shoulders with proper arms on the sides would be even more awsome, but I might try and convert this myself by using some riptide, wraith knight or imperial knight arms that I will have to ask around for.
Ovesa isnt easy to pick off since he is a riptide, and Stealthsuits are only easily removed up close and personal unless you face the oddball that actually brings hard counters to them (if they even have them available) Ghostkeels already force the stealthsuits to deploy near your deployment zone anyway since they dont have infiltrate (oddly enough)
Dont forget Ovesa has two drones he is required to take. So if somethind DOES actually pen his armor and threaten him, 2+ look out sir ftw.
On that note, i kinda wish they'd put a blip about IC's that are MCs can join squads of MCs. Then again i think thats pretty much a Tau benefit only so doubt that'd happen.
If O'Vesa Look out Sir such shots, he'll be forced a Leadership Test. Not a good idea.
Tyranids would benefit of ICs joining squads of MCs as well (Tyranid Prime. Not that any Tyranid player would do that, though )
Acidian wrote: Is there any definitive information about how the ruling on the TAU tidewall for units that don't fit on the battlements or droneport area? For 265 points its really expensive, and I feel it's only worth it if I can use it with missilesides to protect them from mawlocs and S8 ap2, but I am not sure how well they fit on there. The KV128 Stormsurge could also be placed on top of the drone port, to allow it to move around when in siege mode, but it would look shady as poo. Even if these things were allowed, and I think the shield/barricade is an excelent place to put pathfinders, I am still not sure if 265 points is worth it.
I have seen very little discussion around the Stormsurge, is it not considered to be a good? I mean, obviously it's good, but is it worth the point cost. I also noticed one place that the missiles on the Stormsurge get upgraded from S8 to SD if you expend markerlight markers in the new codex. Is this true, and how OP is this potentially?
I really want to run the new Hunter Contingent, but I have no idea what to put in a Hunter Cardre. I usually play with a Farsight enclave army, and I have no idea how to use 3 units of firewarriors. Breachers would be good, but without over priced devilfish or some kind of infiltrate (they don't right?) or deep strike then I am not sure how to get them into 5". Really love the idea of a support commander in this formation, but I will miss the MLs from the dronemander and since I want to use one of the two heavy support slots for KV128, that means I only have room for 1 Sky ray.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I am stupid, just realized that Sky rays can be taken in units of 3 in the new codex, so one heavy support slot is enough, How I will get the points for everything is another matter.
What are you wanting to run the contingent for? To unlock the auxiliaries? Or do you like the cadre and want to use that as a main. I'd go with min squads of troops, and then max out the crisis/riptide, throw in broadsides and stormsurge and your good. Or keep it cheap and get some auxiliaries in there.
Neutralisation Lattice:If a unit from this Formation inflicts three or more markerlight hits on a target unit in a Shooting phase, inflict a single seeker missile (pg 118) hit on the enemy unit in addition to placing the markerlight counters. Note that you do not need to roll to hit for the seeker missile, nor do you need to have a unit capable of firing the missile in range of the target (the missiles are fired by support craft flying high above the battlefield).
Does that mean that if 2 units inflict 3+ markerlights, 2 seeker missiles are shot? If is that so, I'd field full pathfinder units in there!
Acidian wrote: Is there any definitive information about how the ruling on the TAU tidewall for units that don't fit on the battlements or droneport area? For 265 points its really expensive, and I feel it's only worth it if I can use it with missilesides to protect them from mawlocs and S8 ap2, but I am not sure how well they fit on there. The KV128 Stormsurge could also be placed on top of the drone port, to allow it to move around when in siege mode, but it would look shady as poo. Even if these things were allowed, and I think the shield/barricade is an excelent place to put pathfinders, I am still not sure if 265 points is worth it.
I have seen very little discussion around the Stormsurge, is it not considered to be a good? I mean, obviously it's good, but is it worth the point cost. I also noticed one place that the missiles on the Stormsurge get upgraded from S8 to SD if you expend markerlight markers in the new codex. Is this true, and how OP is this potentially?
I really want to run the new Hunter Contingent, but I have no idea what to put in a Hunter Cardre. I usually play with a Farsight enclave army, and I have no idea how to use 3 units of firewarriors. Breachers would be good, but without over priced devilfish or some kind of infiltrate (they don't right?) or deep strike then I am not sure how to get them into 5". Really love the idea of a support commander in this formation, but I will miss the MLs from the dronemander and since I want to use one of the two heavy support slots for KV128, that means I only have room for 1 Sky ray.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I am stupid, just realized that Sky rays can be taken in units of 3 in the new codex, so one heavy support slot is enough, How I will get the points for everything is another matter.
Not sure about the tidewall, but I am sure about the stormsurge. From what I've heard, the people who have used them in games have found them to be incredible, nearly game-winning, units.
I would have to concur with McNinja, I have heard this as well, even without the Str D missiles.
What are you wanting to run the contingent for? To unlock the auxiliaries? Or do you like the cadre and want to use that as a main. I'd go with min squads of troops, and then max out the crisis/riptide, throw in broadsides and stormsurge and your good. Or keep it cheap and get some auxiliaries in there.
Contingent is mostly to get the combine firepower effect, which is awesome combined with a buffmander in the mandatory Hunter Cadre. Optimised stealth cadre with +1 BS when 3+ units shoot together is also nice, in combination with the +1 already in the optimised stealth cadre. I would have added a Firebase support cadre as well, not that I think there is enough points for it, but might not be as needed anyway with a buffmander that can give the same bonuses. +1 BS is pretty nice on broadsides and riptide though.
I just want to be clear if buffmander is in a unit of three crisis suits that consolidate fire at one unit with two other units of three crisis suits he can transfer ALL of his buffs that transfer to his unit to them AND they can still use target lock to shoot somewhere else and just have like a drone shoot at the same target?
If so I take back everything I said about this book and it could be stronger than eldar.
Acidian wrote: Is there any definitive information about how the ruling on the TAU tidewall for units that don't fit on the battlements or droneport area? For 265 points its really expensive, and I feel it's only worth it if I can use it with missilesides to protect them from mawlocs and S8 ap2, but I am not sure how well they fit on there. The KV128 Stormsurge could also be placed on top of the drone port, to allow it to move around when in siege mode, but it would look shady as poo. Even if these things were allowed, and I think the shield/barricade is an excelent place to put pathfinders, I am still not sure if 265 points is worth it.
I have seen very little discussion around the Stormsurge, is it not considered to be a good? I mean, obviously it's good, but is it worth the point cost. I also noticed one place that the missiles on the Stormsurge get upgraded from S8 to SD if you expend markerlight markers in the new codex. Is this true, and how OP is this potentially?
I really want to run the new Hunter Contingent, but I have no idea what to put in a Hunter Cardre. I usually play with a Farsight enclave army, and I have no idea how to use 3 units of firewarriors. Breachers would be good, but without over priced devilfish or some kind of infiltrate (they don't right?) or deep strike then I am not sure how to get them into 5". Really love the idea of a support commander in this formation, but I will miss the MLs from the dronemander and since I want to use one of the two heavy support slots for KV128, that means I only have room for 1 Sky ray.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I am stupid, just realized that Sky rays can be taken in units of 3 in the new codex, so one heavy support slot is enough, How I will get the points for everything is another matter.
well the Storm Surge looks good, but you have to protect it. Its like everything in the Tau codex: melts like buttah in melee. so just wrapping it up is all you really need do. Beasts and Cavalry can all do it, Fast skimmers can get you to the fight fast and so on.
I think if left to do what it does, the enemy will be sorry. But they will make an effort to silence the guns of Navarone. A mobile army is pretty important to have.
Dominion squads will also do a number on a StormSurge. They can be hitting it turn one with a lotta meltas.
Drop pod armies can hit it with Grav Guns as can Bikers with Grav Cannons etc...
I think it gives the Tau a way to say "Wraith Knight! Hey Wraith Knight! I got something for ya'!" It also gives them a rather expensive but ultimately good D weapon. I don't foresee using more than one StormSurge in most lists. three? insane. Way too easy to tie up and way terrible at melee. Stomp is their saving grace but then you can't drop your struts in place. So...
SS actually melts more to AP2 fire than melee. You're never going to get into assault when the entire army, including the SS overwatches. Maybe if they make a huge mistake, but yeah wrapping it up is the solution for that so maybe we are saying the same thing
Nothing in the game can hit the SS in a Tau army with melta T1. That's just not accurate dude. The entire point of the Tau army is you can't alpha strike or alpha beta strike them. Not if the Tau player is good. That's what EWO and the 72 inch range is for
jakejackjake wrote: SS actually melts more to AP2 fire than melee. You're never going to get into assault when the entire army, including the SS overwatches. Maybe if they make a huge mistake, but yeah wrapping it up is the solution for that so maybe we are saying the same thing
Nothing in the game can hit the SS in a Tau army with melta T1. That's just not accurate dude. The entire point of the Tau army is you can't alpha strike or alpha beta strike them. Not if the Tau player is good. That's what EWO and the 72 inch range is for
jakejackjake wrote: SS actually melts more to AP2 fire than melee. You're never going to get into assault when the entire army, including the SS overwatches. Maybe if they make a huge mistake, but yeah wrapping it up is the solution for that so maybe we are saying the same thing
Nothing in the game can hit the SS in a Tau army with melta T1. That's just not accurate dude. The entire point of the Tau army is you can't alpha strike or alpha beta strike them. Not if the Tau player is good. That's what EWO and the 72 inch range is for
Stormsurge cannot overwatch
You would hope everything around it with some EWO's would be able to protect it.
Stormsurge getting charged should never happen unless youre already losing. It anchors behind your wall of firewarriors next to your broadsides and tanks and sits there the entire game.
Only way i'd see it getting charged before losing 2/3 of your forces is if someone b-lines to it. Which is a dumb idea to begin with because that means the rest of your army is in Supporting Fire range - Stormsurge cant overwatch, but he still triggers other units' Supporting Fire.
Vineheart01 wrote: Stormsurge getting charged should never happen unless youre already losing. It anchors behind your wall of firewarriors next to your broadsides and tanks and sits there the entire game.
Only way i'd see it getting charged before losing 2/3 of your forces is if someone b-lines to it. Which is a dumb idea to begin with because that means the rest of your army is in Supporting Fire range - Stormsurge cant overwatch, but he still triggers other units' Supporting Fire.
If he B-Lines and you have some DS coming he will leave most of his forces open as well. I don't really see it working out well, without some terrible rolls on the Tau's part.
Nothing in the game can hit the SS in a Tau army with melta T1. That's just not accurate dude. The entire point of the Tau army is you can't alpha strike or alpha beta strike them. Not if the Tau player is good. That's what EWO and the 72 inch range is for
Umm... Nothing in the game eh? hehehe.
No idea what you're talking about here. yes. You can absolutely can bring a ton of melta turn one. I can shoot the Storm Surge with a whopping 30 Meltaguns in turn one and they ignore cover. Nothing is going to save it from my Adepta Sororitas.
The new tactica for Tau is that we get a moveable Terrain piece with a gun attached to it. Our game plan never changed, we simply got new units that dont fulfill any specific role.
Stand back, shoot and count the turns it takes for our opponents to either concede or until they're off the board.
Tau are still boring to play, and boring to play against. Wont be dusting mine off anytime soon.
Nothing in the game can hit the SS in a Tau army with melta T1. That's just not accurate dude. The entire point of the Tau army is you can't alpha strike or alpha beta strike them. Not if the Tau player is good. That's what EWO and the 72 inch range is for
Umm... Nothing in the game eh? hehehe.
No idea what you're talking about here. yes. You can absolutely can bring a ton of melta turn one. I can shoot the Storm Surge with a whopping 30 Meltaguns in turn one and they ignore cover. Nothing is going to save it from my Adepta Sororitas.
Now you know.
I think he meant because EWO is all over the tau army that and Deepstriking/Drop-pod armies will be shot up
Why? More aggressive? This isnt 5th anymore. There is no aggression within the Tau dex. We as generals no longer have to make difficult decisions in determining what gets to be a road bump, nor do we have to determine where to move if we want to secure an objective, we simply do.
You may think Im being pessimistic against the Dex and faction as a whole, but the good days of the Tau dex as being a skillful army to play are gone, people need to realize this and stop living in such a mystical wonderland where an entire army can forgo an entire portion of the game simply because of units within the dex being grossly Overpowered and bumped to a degree that you no longer have to really think about playing them
Being that I also collect Eldar, CSM, Daemons and have just started collecting IG, my Eldar and Tau are forever, NEVER, going to be seeing the tabletop the way they are currently. You cant possibly begin to imagine how disgusted one feels in spending so much money on a faction only to have said faction that everyone used to love playing with and against, turn into a shitstorm because you want to have fun and win, competitively. No other dex's out there really compare to the amount of shooting these two dex's can dish out and it's true how you simply need to sit back, count the turns and wait for your opponent to disappear.
Ive seen the good, Ive played with the bad, Tau are no longer fun, these additions to their arsenal of bs wont make them any more interesting to play and sure wont get any of us Tau collectors any more games. So, in conclusion, once again, I stand by my decision to not bother with the new units nor dex due to how unfun they are to play with.
Why would the buffmanders 3 crisis suit marker drones not contribute to the whole army combined firing rule? Is it because they shoot at the same time?
Seems like it should work. Also can darkstrider be in the formation? Even if he isn't anyone shooting at his target gets the benefit anyway right?
notredameguy10 wrote:
I think he meant because EWO is all over the tau army that and Deepstriking/Drop-pod armies will be shot up
But EWO means nothing when the enemy is inside scouting Rhinos
Orock wrote:Why would the buffmanders 3 crisis suit marker drones not contribute to the whole army combined firing rule? Is it because they shoot at the same time?
A buffmander joined to a unit of crisis which bought marker drones are only 1 unit.
Nothing in the game can hit the SS in a Tau army with melta T1. That's just not accurate dude. The entire point of the Tau army is you can't alpha strike or alpha beta strike them. Not if the Tau player is good. That's what EWO and the 72 inch range is for
Umm... Nothing in the game eh? hehehe.
No idea what you're talking about here. yes. You can absolutely can bring a ton of melta turn one. I can shoot the Storm Surge with a whopping 30 Meltaguns in turn one and they ignore cover. Nothing is going to save it from my Adepta Sororitas.
Now you know.
I think he meant because EWO is all over the tau army that and Deepstriking/Drop-pod armies will be shot up
Except that I never said anything about a drop army in my post and he claims NOTHING IN 40k can do it. Lol. Just sayin.
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GoliothOnline wrote: Why? More aggressive? This isnt 5th anymore. There is no aggression within the Tau dex. We as generals no longer have to make difficult decisions in determining what gets to be a road bump, nor do we have to determine where to move if we want to secure an objective, we simply do.
You may think Im being pessimistic against the Dex and faction as a whole, but the good days of the Tau dex as being a skillful army to play are gone, people need to realize this and stop living in such a mystical wonderland where an entire army can forgo an entire portion of the game simply because of units within the dex being grossly Overpowered and bumped to a degree that you no longer have to really think about playing them
Being that I also collect Eldar, CSM, Daemons and have just started collecting IG, my Eldar and Tau are forever, NEVER, going to be seeing the tabletop the way they are currently. You cant possibly begin to imagine how disgusted one feels in spending so much money on a faction only to have said faction that everyone used to love playing with and against, turn into a shitstorm because you want to have fun and win, competitively. No other dex's out there really compare to the amount of shooting these two dex's can dish out and it's true how you simply need to sit back, count the turns and wait for your opponent to disappear.
Ive seen the good, Ive played with the bad, Tau are no longer fun, these additions to their arsenal of bs wont make them any more interesting to play and sure wont get any of us Tau collectors any more games. So, in conclusion, once again, I stand by my decision to not bother with the new units nor dex due to how unfun they are to play with.
I read this twice just to make sure I wasnt reading it wrong. I'm trying to reconcile what you typed with what I know and we're not matching up here.
What... exactly... do you mean when you say theres no aggression and you skip an entire phase of the game?
Tau shoot more than anyone because their BEST units cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag and they have no psyker defense nor phase.
Now I am a good Tau General whose played them since day 1. Mine play upfield and aggressively. There are some battle reports as examples on the blog.
So can you be really specific in what you're meaning? I dont think Tau are the push overs people "liked to play" and it pisses some players off not to get to roll through us like 3rd and 4th edition allowed. Our codex blew until 6e and that codex was really only broken by the TauDar combos more than anything else. PURE Tau forces were not often seen in 6th edition (i mainly played pure Tau but unless someone was FarSun bombing people, it was faaaaar more common to see Taudar competitively). 7E and its codex certainly took a lot of the lustre off but it remains a good codex. Ive had no problems with perception but perhaps that is because of the way I play? Anyways Im surprised at your comments here.
Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
Neither can tau share rules?
The combined fire is pretty clear that you resolve as if it was one unit, not that you form a momentary unit.
The "true combine" interpretation, as slim as it is, just brakes the game on so many mechanical level (let alone balance) that it cant be argued for. I won't go into it as I gotta go sleep now, but it sends so many rules haywire and irrational that it cannot possibly apply. not even GW can do that level of madness.
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
Neither can tau share rules?
The combined fire is pretty clear that you resolve as if it was one unit, not that you form a momentary unit.
The "true combine" interpretation, as slim as it is, just brakes the game on so many mechanical level (let alone balance) that it cant be argued for. I won't go into it as I gotta go sleep now, but it sends so many rules haywire and irrational that it cannot possibly apply. not even GW can do that level of madness.
Sounds like something they have covered pretty well over in YMDC. Personally I'm looking forward to the new applications for stealth suits. Much more potent offensively and very durable now that they have their friends the ghost keels who don't mind getting a little more up close and personal with them to give them perpetual 2+ cover from most angles.
Neutralisation Lattice:If a unit from this Formation inflicts three or more markerlight hits on a target unit in a Shooting phase, inflict a single seeker missile (pg 118) hit on the enemy unit in addition to placing the markerlight counters. Note that you do not need to roll to hit for the seeker missile, nor do you need to have a unit capable of firing the missile in range of the target (the missiles are fired by support craft flying high above the battlefield).
Does that mean that if 2 units inflict 3+ markerlights, 2 seeker missiles are shot? If is that so, I'd field full pathfinder units in there!
Yes-ish
If the shooting is done separately for each unit, then each unit that scores 3+ ML hits will cause 1 seeker missile to fire,
so you fire one unit, score 3 hits= 1 seeker missile. You place markerlight tokens, and fire a seeker misisle.
do the next and repeat.
there is a rules issue with the "coordinated firepower" which brings up the yes-ish part.
if you fire one squad and opt to combine two others to get increased BS, because of the rules for "coordinated firepower" they all count as a single unit when resolving the shot, this appears to mean that you would only get at max 1 seeker missile shot from the 3 combined units, where separately you could get 3 total.
Combining them seems like a waste of markerlights though. Better to spread the markerlight love around, and have other units combine fire on the markerlighted units to share the markerlight love.
GoliothOnline wrote: Why? More aggressive? This isnt 5th anymore. There is no aggression within the Tau dex. We as generals no longer have to make difficult decisions in determining what gets to be a road bump, nor do we have to determine where to move if we want to secure an objective, we simply do.
You must have only ever played your Tau in a single kind of way because its utterly untrue to not being able to play your Tau aggressively, nor is it true that we have it so easy as you claim. Even with this new Codex and units there are several armies, such as Necrons, Space Marines and Eldar who have plenty in their arsenals to deal with what we can now bring to the field quite handily and I expect the other Codex's when they get redone to be brought up to the same level or close to it. Bemoaning that Tau have/take no skill to play may be your opinion but don't expect every person to agree with it, especially when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Nonaggressive tau? Literally the only things in my tau army that sits still are things that cant move - broadsides and tanks.
Thats part of the reason i use piranha walls. It lets me move forward with my firewarriors to get rapid fire hell and buy enough time to back up when it starts getting a bit hairy.
Im also one of the few tau players that actually charge. Even for tau there are tons of situations where charging is actually beneficial to do.
The tau gunline armies are terrible. Not only boring as hell but if you can field your own 48" or so guns, you can EASILY outgun Tau. Our power relies in the midfield ranges, its pretty rare to see us with more than 2-3 units that have a gun beyond 32" and if we do its usually a single shot.
Tau wants to be aggressive and that is why I really like the new retaliation cadre formation. Everything coming down on turn 2 and relentless broadsides lets you really get a mobile force, I think it pairs really well with the optimized stealth cadre as you can easily hide stealth suits and the ghostkneel can be really hard to kill when things are snap firing at it. The stealth suits also can have homing beacons for guaranteed deep striking.
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
Lol what? So I can't stick a marine in a drip pod with 3 grab cents and now ignores cover and delete pretty much anything I want? Good lord man what is your definition of " shooty"?
Always played Tau aggressively even in the old days of weak tau. I would have a Broadside team in the rear area but everything else would be forward with suits DSing all around enemy units who the turn before were looking to charge across the field. Playing non-aggressively with Tau is boring and gunlines put me to sleep.
EWO, the best item in the codex for the current game. I put that &*&* on everything.
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
Lol what? So I can't stick a marine in a drip pod with 3 grab cents and now ignores cover and delete pretty much anything I want? Good lord man what is your definition of " shooty"?
Don't forget to put it on a librarian with divination or telepathy!
BoomWolf wrote: Lets not forget, anything tau get that is "super OP"-a marine can get better at the same price, and nobody will lash an eye. (Hunter's Eye relic to be precise. a +1 version of our MSSS, at the same cost. but its marines, so its fair.)
Except Hunter's Eye relic doesn't exist in a codex where units can share abilities in the shooting phase. So no matter what it is only benefiting one unit.
Besides marine Hqs are not shooty hqs (unlike some of the Tau ones) so the allowance of them to shoot with the unit is almost negligible
Lol what? So I can't stick a marine in a drip pod with 3 grab cents and now ignores cover and delete pretty much anything I want? Good lord man what is your definition of " shooty"?
The HQ itself isn't shooty is what I said.
Someone mentioned a techmarine as a shooty hq. I guess you could give them a conversion beamer and fire out a S6 ap2 blast (wow) with those grav cents. You can't give him a harness though because he won't fit with them in the pod. You also can't give him relentless to be able to fire it the turn he drops because every option that does that makes him bulky or very bulky and he won't fit in the pod.
They were complaining that it was unfair that the space marine relic lets you shoot and still gain ignores cover, when in reality most things carrying the thing are going to be carrying a bolter so it doesn't affect much.
Yes the hunters eye is good. And yes no one will think its OP cause its an IOM relic. Wont matter as much if the dude is shot off the board before he can be useful.
Jancoran wrote: Who thinks they will get the new codex, vs. using their old codex and just getting the campaign book?
Considering Kauyon has effectively the full tau codex + 2 space marine Dataslates? My hard copy will be the Kauyon.
Nope. Its only the new units and the Tidewall formation stuff. So you do still need the codex if you buy Kau'yon. And they screwed us because the Tidewall info does NOT come in the Codex! Lame. Looking at my copy now.
Jefffar wrote: DoomShakaLaka - he won't need Relentless if he pods in with the Centurions. Slow and Purposeful is a shared rule that the Centurions have.
This is true (forgot that S&P confers)
Also I did think of a shooting method that could be pretty broken. Giving the Hunter's Eye to a chapter master and give a centurion an omniscope
Now turn 1 you can drop in and fire at a different unit with an infinite range S10 ap1 ignores cover large blast separate from the centurions and still absorb some shooting for them.
So I changed my mind.
There's no reason why the SM one should be better than the Tau one for the same price. I was thinking that basically SM couldn't use it to its full potential so it was a wash, but I was wrong.
Full potential!? The fact they pay the same cost for a wargear upgrade that effects gravcannons, that the whole 40k world went f'n bananas about when Tau could only use it on autocannons, is utter bull$#!+. Never mind taking away all of the Tau version's limitations. It should be more expensive even without the +1 BS.
I thought it'd help to propagate discussion by rating the new formations that we have access to.
Green = Fantastic
Blue = Good
Yellow = Average
Red = Poor
I've tried to rate these against a specific set of conditions: Solo Power (how powerful the formation is by itself), Synergistic Power (how powerful the formation is when combined with others), and Tax (how large a buy-in the formation requires and/or whether it requires the inclusion of less-than-stellar units).
So, without further ado: Dr. Delorean's diagnosis of the new Formations!
Hunter Contingent (with Special Rule sharing) /without Special Rule sharing
The debate apparently still rages on as to whether special rules, alongside markerlight hits, may be shared amongst the disparate units that choose to Coordinate their Firepower onto a single enemy unit. As such, there are two separate ratings.
If we indeed can share Special Rules, then this easily hits Green status. The amount of synergy this would provide is immense. When combined with a Buffmander (Crisis Commander with any or all of the following: Multi Spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, and Command and Control Node), it becomes ridiculous. Any single enemy unit targeted in this way will have a seriously bad time with the possibility of re-rolls to hit, Ignores Cover, Monster Hunter, or Tank Hunters.
Alternately, if this doesn't allow for the sharing of special rules, then it drops to a Blue. Sharing of Markerlights and +1 BS for three units firing at the same target is good and reduces the amount of Markerlights necessary for an average list significantly.
That said, the Detachment benefits could be a free cheeseburger every other Tuesday and a slap with a wet haddock and I'd still be hard-pressed to rate this any lower than Yellow, simply because the formations it is comprised of are (on average) very effective.
Hunter Cadre
A really solid formation, it's rating comes mostly from its sheer flexibility and synergy with the other formations when combined into a Hunter Contingent, rather than having amazing formation bonuses. That said, the bonuses aren't bad by any means. The extended Supporting Fire range means that you can more easily fend off any Skyhammer Assault Marines that survive your Interceptor fusillade, and being able to run (or flat-out) when within 12" of the Commander/Cadre Fireblade gives us back a lot of the maneuverability our Hammerhead's lost.
One thing to remember however is that if you wish to run-and-shoot, each unit that does so must complete both actions before you can move onto another unit. This makes it difficult to use alongside Coordinated Firepower.
Tax-wise there's little to complain about, mainly because this is one of the most open and varied Core formation I've seen. The only thing I'd knock it for is the mandatory 3 fire warrior/kroot squads, but considering the exceedingly cheap base cost for a 5-man FW squad, that's honestly a nitpick at best.
Retaliation Cadre
Battlesuit-o-philes rejoice! Did you want automatic turn 2 deep strike? Relentless Broadsides? +1 BS on the turn you rock up? It's all here!
Solo Power is high thanks to those lovely formation benefits and synergy-wise it combines well with both the Infiltration Cadre and the Optimised Stealth Cadre (more on those later).
It can also be used alongside the Hunter Cadre so that you can have your Buffmander stay at home, buffing his troops like a madman, and his Commander brother can hop around the opponent's backfield with his now-apparently-not-experimental Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors, ignoring cover and living the high life.
As far as Tax goes, it can quickly become expensive if you over-indulge, but even the mandatory 3 Crisis units aren't a huge cost since they can still be taken in units of 1 if you so choose.
As a final note - taking this in a Hunter Contingent for the +1BS bonus and/or making use of the Riptide's Fire Team rule will quickly get you that sweet BS5 without ever having to spend a markerlight. Who's got poor depth perception now, Imperium?!
Heavy Retribution Cadre
I umm'ed and ahh'ed about whether to give this Blue or Yellow for a long time, but finally settled on Yellow just for the really high buy-in cost. 850pts (at minimum) will be difficult to fit into a varied list, and the Ghostkeel can be better utilised in the Optimised Stealth Cadre.
The bonuses are solid though and synergise well with the Hunter Contingent benefits due to both requiring combined fire. The best part is, as Gargantuan Creatures, the Stormsurges can potentially select many different enemy units and pummel them all into halving their charge rolls and run moves. Perfect for that annoying Eldar army that keeps running and gunning. Note that it only requires the enemy to be selected as a target, it doesn't need to take any damage from the attack. Use those Smart Missile Systems well, Shas'la!
Infiltration Cadre
A true troll's best friend, the Infiltration Cadre is perfect for those bringing the Retaliation Cadre, or are holding any significant number of units in reserve. Watch your opponent's gleeful look as he destroys that lone Piranha turn to one of abject horror as you declare that nine Crisis Suits, three Broadsides, and three Riptides are deepstriking, automatically, in your FIRST. TURN.
The extra seeker hits are just gravy - though I'd recommend units of 8 pathfinders - 6 of them averages 3 markerlight hits each, taking 8 allows for some minor casualties before their effectiveness is reduced, as as Tau are Base-8, it's pleasantly appropriate.
The cheapness of the pathfinders and Piranha makes up for the slighty-overcosted Stealth Suits, but what really drags this otherwise superlative formation from a Green to a Blue is simply that those Stealth Suits are far better used in a different formation. Speaking of...
Optimised Stealth Cadre
The great redeemer of Stealth Suits everywhere, this is the cream of the crop. +1 BS is good (+2 when firing with all 3 units and in a Hunter Contingent), Ignores Cover is better, and automatically hitting Rear Armour makes anyone using a vehicle weep.
Leman Russes are now effectively av10, Necron vehicles can leave their quantum shielding at home for all the good it'd do, and Imperial Knights have to make some tough decisions about where their Ion Shield is gonna go.
It also handily compensates for the fact that only 1 in 3 stealth suits can take a fusion blaster - now players won't feel like their burst cannons are being wasted, as most vehicles' rear armour can at least be glanced by strength 5.
The buy-in at minimum is fairly low, though if you're really wanting to get the most out of this formation I'd recommend taking more than one Ghostkeel. The formation revolves around them, and even if the stealth suits are killed the Ghostkeels can still use the rules. Plus, Ghostkeels are fantastic anyway.
Firebase Support Cadre
Oh how the mighty have fallen. What was once the very best of Tau formations has now been brought down and overshadowed by others. It's not bad by any means, but the units that comprise it are better used in a Retaliation Cadre or a Hunter Cadre and can more easily access the same benefits through a Buffmander (if that's how the bonus works).
It has become cheaper to run however, as the Broadside units no longer need to be full size. My advice if you want to take this formation is to keep it small and make sure the Riptide is equipped to complement the Broadsides - Ion Accelerators all the way.
Armoured Interdiction Cadre (if special rules can be shared)/If special rules can't be shared
It's nice for Hammerheads to get some benefits, but the buy-in for this formation is quite high. Much like the Hunter Contingent, the efficacy of this formation is somewhat predicated on whether special rules can be shared.
Re-rolling to hit is great, but taking Longstrike on one of the Hammerheads and allowing him to share his Tank Hunters with everyone would make this formation truly shine. There's little point in taking a single unit of 3 hammerheads if this is the case - taking them separately allows them to target different units, but they can still access the +1BS they'd receive for being separate units targeting the same enemy.
I'd really like to rate this formation higher, since I own 3 hammerheads and a skyray, but until we get some confirmation on how Coordinated Firepower works it'll remain in Ratings limbo.
Air Caste Support Cadre
The only truly poor formation of the bunch, the Air Caste Support Cadre suffers from having to include already-lacklustre units and not giving them anything particularly effective to compensate.
The flyers are fairly fragile, so the restoration of HP on a 6 isn't anything to write home about since most of the time they'll be destroyed outright rather than stripped slowly. Ignoring Shaken/Stunned is alright, though the fact you still lose a HP stings.
This is disappointing, because there's a lot more they could've done to entice people into this formation. Stuff like allowing the flyers to Jink without having to snap fire, or giving them Vector Dancer would've added something not seen in the Tau force.
Allied Advance Cadre
I felt like Homer Simpson buying the cursed doll when I was reading this formation. You can take battleforged armies of almost-all Kroot, that's good! But you need to take 2 units of Vespid, that's bad. The the Kroot get +1 BS, that's good! But they need to stay within 12" of a Vespid unit, that's bad.
What this formation really suffers from is that it forces you to take 2 units that don't really want to cooperate. Vespid want to use their heightened maneuverability and Jump status to close with the enemy quickly and harass, whereas Kroot want to take as much advantage of their Shrouded (Forests) special rule (forcing them to stay in terrain pieces).
It's still not a bad formation though - Kroot with Sniper Rounds and BS 4 are not to be sneezed at, and Supporting Fire makes them more resistant to assault than they otherwise might have been.
That said, I wouldn't take this formation unless you're a fan of Vespid, Kroot, or both. Or, you want to run a good old Kroot Mercenaries list and convert up some counts-as Vespid that are Kroot with the Wings mutation. Ah, 3rd edition...
So there we go! My $3.50 (roughly 2 pence in Aust. dollarydoos) about our new shiny formations and detachments. Feel free to provide your own comments on how good you think the formations are, these are just my personal opinions after all, and I may well have overlooked some key aspect that you've noticed.
The debate on whether or not unit-wide rules share is just people who dont want to face it trying to rule-lawyer it out. If they count as a unit for that shooting, then any and all unit rules apply unless it says it doesnt - it doesnt need special permission to be a normal unit when it says its a unit. Tau have a lot of rules like that, all of which have either been FAQ'd to shut the critiques up or the Tau just accepted it to shut them up. Ever notice any funky rules IOM get nobody flames as hard as ours?
Vineheart01 wrote: The debate on whether or not unit-wide rules share is just people who dont want to face it trying to rule-lawyer it out. If they count as a unit for that shooting, then any and all unit rules apply unless it says it doesnt - it doesnt need special permission to be a normal unit when it says its a unit.
Tau have a lot of rules like that, all of which have either been FAQ'd to shut the critiques up or the Tau just accepted it to shut them up. Ever notice any funky rules IOM get nobody flames as hard as ours?
Though i admit its crazy powerful.
I agree that it seems pretty clear-cut and it's the way my group and I will play it, but for neutrality's sake and on the off chance GW releases an FAQ explicitly stating that special rules don't transfer (for some reason), I thought I'd try to cover all the bases.
I actually find the formations themselves to be fairly unremarkable, with a few exceptions. It's the combined fire Hunter Contingent formation bonus that makes everything awesome.
In particular, I don't think the Retaliation Cadre is all that great. Relentless Broadsides are clearly awesome, but everything else is already relentless. Adding a BS to everything that deep strikes is cool, but now that you can (probably) share buffmander boons all over the place and get an extra BS from combined fire anyway, the benefits are a little less amazing. You're also talking about sacrificing a turn of fire from a huge chunk of your army if you want to maximize the formation bonus. Given that it consists of units you're probably pretty interested in taking anyway, it's still good, but I doubt I'd call it a fantastic choice.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the rules for the Infiltration Cadre, but doesn't the death-->unit dump thing only apply to units in the formation itself? I like the concept of the formation a lot, but if it's competitiveness and power you're after, fielding 6 units of sub-par choices that don't get any huge bonuses is probably not the way to go. On the other hand, if it allows to to spew all your reserves out at once when something dies, I agree that it's quite the powerful set-up.
Air Caste Support...*sigh*...At least they tried...? I guess?
It should be pretty obvious that the winner is the Optimised Stealth Cadre. If that formation doesn't find its way into just about every tournament-going Tau army, I'll be awfully surprised. Those bonuses are disgusting, especially in concert with all the other widespread buffs you can load on them.
Air Caste Support...*sigh*...At least they tried...? I guess?
It should be pretty obvious that the winner is the Optimised Stealth Cadre. If that formation doesn't find its way into just about every tournament-going Tau army, I'll be awfully surprised. Those bonuses are disgusting, especially in concert with all the other widespread buffs you can load on them.
Which common tournament army uses so many high armour value vehicles that bonuses against vehicles are needed for 'every tournament-going Tau army'? Because I'm not seeing it. Sure the formation sounds great, but it does nothing against Eldar, nothing against Space Marines, almost nothing against Necrons, and nothing against Tyranids.
MilkmanAl wrote: I actually find the formations themselves to be fairly unremarkable, with a few exceptions. It's the combined fire Hunter Contingent formation bonus that makes everything awesome.
In particular, I don't think the Retaliation Cadre is all that great. Relentless Broadsides are clearly awesome, but everything else is already relentless. Adding a BS to everything that deep strikes is cool, but now that you can (probably) share buffmander boons all over the place and get an extra BS from combined fire anyway, the benefits are a little less amazing. You're also talking about sacrificing a turn of fire from a huge chunk of your army if you want to maximize the formation bonus. Given that it consists of units you're probably pretty interested in taking anyway, it's still good, but I doubt I'd call it a fantastic choice.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the rules for the Infiltration Cadre, but doesn't the death-->unit dump thing only apply to units in the formation itself? I like the concept of the formation a lot, but if it's competitiveness and power you're after, fielding 6 units of sub-par choices that don't get any huge bonuses is probably not the way to go. On the other hand, if it allows to to spew all your reserves out at once when something dies, I agree that it's quite the powerful set-up.
Air Caste Support...*sigh*...At least they tried...? I guess?
It should be pretty obvious that the winner is the Optimised Stealth Cadre. If that formation doesn't find its way into just about every tournament-going Tau army, I'll be awfully surprised. Those bonuses are disgusting, especially in concert with all the other widespread buffs you can load on them.
What makes retaliation cadre awesome, aside of deep-striking-relentless-broadsides (as its only 1 unit per formation) is the fact its an assured T2 arrival, practically punishing alpha strike lists by delivering a nasty, guaranteed beta strike. you WILL get the first strike, even if they use drop pods.
Infiltration cadre allows much of the same-if you get hit hard turn 1, you hit back harder on turn 2. because your entire army worth of reserves arrives-even on T1. yes, entire army, not the formation itself. and neither pathfinders nor piranhas are sub-par. pathys are among the best markerlight sources around, especially with tidewalls being a thing. piranhas are just cheap S5Ap5 spammers, and a mobile roadblock. the entire formation is trolltastic (and free seeker strikes on good marking is icing on an already good cake)
The two combined with the EWO being a thing allow tau to build some heavily anti-alpha army, practically assuring that alpha armies can never dominate the metagame, as tau counter them.
OSC is freaking amazing, yes. it counterbalances nearly any tank-oriented spam list where the tank does not have though rear, and presents a real problem to IKs (protect rear from the OSC, or front from the possible stormsurge) again, a meta shaping formation, as it provides a viable answer to some nasty lists.
Air caste support...it a fail. not everything can be a winner. it does not even support a clear fighting style unlike the rest.
The existance of tau's formations, especially the way they all branch into multiple directions (infiltration/retaliation are beta strike, OSC/allied advance support aggresive infiltration forces and armored induction/heavy retribution/firebase support deploy gunlines, with the hunter being able to support each of the three paths) makes tau to be able to answer any meta, without defining it on its own right. you can counter any one thing, but not all the things at once. if anything becomes dominant, focus the formations that counter it-if there is no clear domination, mix up your paths to make an balanced list.
So I see the smaller/cheaper Ghostkeel as a mini HBC Riptide (the one with the ECPA).
A bunch of decent str shots, fairly autonomous, good range and mobility.
Some other ramblings;
The Taucurion (Hunter Contingent)
=Multi-Unit shooting, to share Markerlights & +1BS buff (the 'weaker' version should be the one assumed, as well.. it is (perhaps silly?) wishful thinking to assume otherwise.. giveN the scope of the 'powerful' version).
+ Efficient Markerlight usage... partially offset by the 'Destroy' option for the StrD (However the StrD option will effect any use of markerlights, Taucurion or not).
+ +1BS (Meaning markerlights become even more 'efficient', as they are used less for BS buffs.)
+ Hunter Cadre for the... Jump... Jump Shoot Jump ability. Pretty limited, a KV128 often wants to remain still (but can move, fast, which is awesome) + units need to remain close to a single model.
- The Jump..JSJ ability seems better on vehicles than infantry models but vehicle access is very limited in the Taucurion.
- Tax of... 3x infantry squads, perhaps 1 pathfinder/Drones
- A further Tax in terms of minimum investment, to access Jump..JSJ + Multi-unit shooting, alongside the other formations benefits.
- No sweet sweet Forge World Models (Tetras?!)
So, if you wish to gain the benefits (assume 'weaker') of the better innate BS and/or efficient markerlights... you could simply buy more markerlights. However markerlights don't win you games*, you still need guns, so having an inherent ability which persists the entire game, assuming you have 3+ units, is good.
And no Forge-World.. That... makes me sad. (Context - 1500pt games, what we play at and makes lists challenging to build, IMHO).
Which common tournament army uses so many high armour value vehicles that bonuses against vehicles are needed for 'every tournament-going Tau army'? Because I'm not seeing it. Sure the formation sounds great, but it does nothing against Eldar, nothing against Space Marines, almost nothing against Necrons, and nothing against Tyranids.
Ignoring cover and an extra BS do nothing against any of those armies? Hitting rear armor isn't as huge of a bonus as most people are making it out to be, but it's always nice against MSU Razorback spam marine lists, which seem to be quite prevalent. Ignoring FMC jinks is nice if they're in range of your fusion guns or have a 4+ or worse basic armor save. I'll give you that it doesn't help a whole lot against Eldar outside of just hitting more often. I'm not saying this formation is the most heinously broken auto-include ever, but I do think it's very, very good and probably the best formation we got in the new book.
What makes retaliation cadre awesome, aside of deep-striking-relentless-broadsides (as its only 1 unit per formation) is the fact its an assured T2 arrival, practically punishing alpha strike lists by delivering a nasty, guaranteed beta strike. you WILL get the first strike, even if they use drop pods.
I can see that being pretty sweet, no doubt. I think you run a rather high risk of ceding board control to your opponent, though. I also don't love the notion of having half my army off the board for 1-2 rounds of enemy shenanigans. I'll have to play with it some and see how it goes.
because your entire army worth of reserves arrives-even on T1. yes, entire army, not the formation itself.
Okay, so that's totally cool, especially with the Retaliation Cadre. Now THAT's a beta-strike.
neither pathfinders nor piranhas are sub-par.
I've always wanted Piranhas to be useful. Roadblocks are nice sometimes, but I'd rather just obliterate whatever I'm trying to block. Maybe they're more useful now that they can get some bonuses when they fire. Pathfinders, on the other hand, are pretty clearly the worst markerlight solution, in my opinion. Marker Drones can easily have BS5, and Tetras are more mobile, more durable, and more reliable. Skyrays are great all-around units.
The two combined with the EWO being a thing allow tau to build some heavily anti-alpha army, practically assuring that alpha armies can never dominate the metagame, as tau counter them.
because your entire army worth of reserves arrives-even on T1. yes, entire army, not the formation itself.
Okay, so that's totally cool, especially with the Retaliation Cadre. Now THAT's a beta-strike
Depending on how much is still on the table, unless I've missed a way you can insta-gib one of your own units (deepstrike mishap?), surely an opponent could just not kill one of your Infiltration Cadre?
Skyfire Markerlights.. Do I still want skyrays.. or am I tempted by Big D Missles instead?!
Jancoran wrote: Who thinks they will get the new codex, vs. using their old codex and just getting the campaign book?
Considering Kauyon has effectively the full tau codex + 2 space marine Dataslates? My hard copy will be the Kauyon.
Nope. Its only the new units and the Tidewall formation stuff. So you do still need the codex if you buy Kau'yon. And they screwed us because the Tidewall info does NOT come in the Codex! Lame. Looking at my copy now.
I see, it is almost a bolt on upgrade to the 6e codex. Most of the rules for units that changed in someway plus the Tidewall. (only unit I don't see that is changed is Aun'shi, and his big change is a sheild generator, wonder is we will see more of him)
Possibly more so.
While you cannot take Farsight in the Hunter Contingent (Taucurion), Crisis Suits and Crisis Bodyguards (elite slot now) can be taken in teams of 9. In a CAD, you can take a nine man Crisis Team in an elite slot and have Farsight as your HQ so you can save points instead of buying Bodyguards.
The one thing you need to watch out for is new Crisis Suits have larger bases so you won't be able to fit into as tight an area as before.
The Taucurion (Hunter Contingent)
=Multi-Unit shooting, to share Markerlights & +1BS buff (the 'weaker' version should be the one assumed, as well.. it is (perhaps silly?) wishful thinking to assume otherwise.. giveN the scope of the 'powerful' version).
Again, just because YOU think it is too powerful, does not mean that isn't the way the rule is written. As written, it's pretty simple; all buffs are shared. Just because people call OP does not give the right to just dismiss the rule
Can anyone with the Tidewall Rampart Shieldwall dataslate confirm or deny if the wall can be taken by other armies? I know no one but Tau can activate the gun or drones, but can other armies take the Shieldwall and get the bounce-back and movement?
I don't know about the one in the boxset, but the rules for the Fortification in Kauyon are located in the Tau Empire chapter which states:
The following section contains new Tau Empire Army List Entries, Formations, wargear and Tactical Objectives – and the fearsome Hunter Contingent Detachment. It also includes full rules for several new Tau Empire Fortifications.
and
As well as containing the brand new Fortification rules, this chapter of the book is designed to be used in conjunction with Codex: Tau Empire(2012) to provide players with all of the new rules found in Codex: Tau Empire(2015). The following rules in Codex: Tau Empire(2012) have also been updated to reflect changes introduced by the new codex.
The Fortification pages themselves don't say they are Tau only, but they also don't say that anyone can take them... However since it states they are 'Tau Empire Fortification', it's safe to say that they are intended to be Tau-only.
Also they have the Identification Protocols n the Gunrig so i mean... Plus it stops working if an enemy gets on it. Plus it specifies in the rules that it ffects Tau Empire Faction and so on.
so yeah intent is no problem on this one. Lol.
because your entire army worth of reserves arrives-even on T1. yes, entire army, not the formation itself.
Okay, so that's totally cool, especially with the Retaliation Cadre. Now THAT's a beta-strike
Depending on how much is still on the table, unless I've missed a way you can insta-gib one of your own units (deepstrike mishap?), surely an opponent could just not kill one of your Infiltration Cadre?
Skyfire Markerlights.. Do I still want skyrays.. or am I tempted by Big D Missles instead?!
The thing is, you go second. Your opponent either takes the first blood bait and kills one of your units (the infiltration cadre being literally the ONLY things on the table) and you get all your reserves T1.
Otherwise, he doesn't get first blood, and you've got a few units given basically no resistance. Pathfinders lighting things up and throwing missiles. Piranhas with FB can start ALL THE WAY FORWARD, then be in striking distance of something tasty. Stealth suits being ignored for a turn can do some nasty things, since you can infiltrate them at exactly 12" from what you want to kill.
The idea is that you give your opponent the hard choice: either kill these things, get first blood, and make it rain; or let some not insignificant shooting hurt them first turn, only to delay most of your suits for only 1 turn.
Something I've been mulling over is where to actually put buffmander. I plan on running the Taucurion and, regardless of how he works, I'm trying to think where he would be best served. My general idea is two maxed out stealth cadres (min stealth suits though with a target lock and fusion) and a squad of broadsides. I was thinking that he should probably go with the broadsides, but either they need to be a bit closer than I would prefer (missilesides) or they would fulfill a niche that I already have in spades (ranged AT). Conversely, I could go complete HAM and give them plasma and run them right up the board/deep strike them
I did forget that their HYMP were already TL. But are drones really durable enough? It seems like a waste to put him in stealth squads and I don't plan on running a large enough blob of crisis suits to feel like he's safe there either. How do you keep buffmander alive?
There really is no comparison. Your Marker Drone squad is very worth the change to their survivablity. It lso means mobile markerlights that can retreat as needed.
as for the commander: He himself will have no weapon, so I don't need him exposed while shooting. Also, he can jump back. Also he can tank for the Drones with irridium.
Don't forget, with a drone controller the drones also have significantly better BS than Pathfinders when running with a Buffmander.
More so, you can get Target Lock on your suits rather cheaply, so you can have your Marker Drones fire at one target, while your Suits go for a completely different one, and your Buffmander helps both D:
Tau can really gain a ton of Markerlights in very hidden ways, that don't force Pathfinder groups. Everything from Drones, Skyrays, Fireblades, FW leader upgrades, Tetras, and so forth. If anything, it might just be reasonable to take Pathfinders with special weapons at this point.
I'm really happy they didn't take the Buffmander out, I think it makes so much sense that the Commander is the one who helps everyone else, as opposed to just being a super trooper like in so many other armies. Then again, I played support main in League of Legends back when I played that game, so you know, I might be biased.
Though yea, I wish the Coldstar was better, as more choices aren't bad.
I've always wanted Piranhas to be useful. Roadblocks are nice sometimes, but I'd rather just obliterate whatever I'm trying to block. Maybe they're more useful now that they can get some bonuses when they fire. Pathfinders, on the other hand, are pretty clearly the worst markerlight solution, in my opinion. Marker Drones can easily have BS5, and Tetras are more mobile, more durable, and more reliable. Skyrays are great all-around units.
Tetras are not available in the hunter Continent though. and skyray are limited as well.
Drones, due to commander costs-as less point effiecent than pathfinders. (and don't get the bonuses of this formation, of free seeker strike hits, and any focus on your markers causes entire army to appear)
Tinkrr wrote: Don't forget, with a drone controller the drones also have significantly better BS than Pathfinders when running with a Buffmander.
More so, you can get Target Lock on your suits rather cheaply, so you can have your Marker Drones fire at one target, while your Suits go for a completely different one, and your Buffmander helps both D:
Tau can really gain a ton of Markerlights in very hidden ways, that don't force Pathfinder groups. Everything from Drones, Skyrays, Fireblades, FW leader upgrades, Tetras, and so forth. If anything, it might just be reasonable to take Pathfinders with special weapons at this point.
Buffmander with drones is dead with the new codex. You will not be able to use those marker lights efficiently because you need to already have the marker lights on a target before the buffmanders unit fires since they are not networked. This way you can get C&CN, PEN, MSSS to spread to your army via combined fire rules.
Tinkrr wrote: Don't forget, with a drone controller the drones also have significantly better BS than Pathfinders when running with a Buffmander.
More so, you can get Target Lock on your suits rather cheaply, so you can have your Marker Drones fire at one target, while your Suits go for a completely different one, and your Buffmander helps both D:
Tau can really gain a ton of Markerlights in very hidden ways, that don't force Pathfinder groups. Everything from Drones, Skyrays, Fireblades, FW leader upgrades, Tetras, and so forth. If anything, it might just be reasonable to take Pathfinders with special weapons at this point.
Buffmander with drones is dead with the new codex. You will not be able to use those marker lights efficiently because you need to already have the marker lights on a target before the buffmanders unit fires since they are not networked. This way you can get C&CN, PEN, MSSS to spread to your army via combined fire rules.
They weren't networked in the 6ed codex either.
The idea wasn't that you had the drones buff your Buffmander unit, but rather that you gave the unit Target Lock, so they could shoot at Squad A and then the drones would shoot at Squad B with their Marker Lights for another squad to shoot them. I mean it's not like the Buffmanders squad really needed the Markers as with the systems he provided they already ignored cover and were twin-linked, so you know the Markers would be redundant.
Buffmander with drones is dead with the new codex. You will not be able to use those marker lights efficiently because you need to already have the marker lights on a target before the buffmanders unit fires since they are not networked. This way you can get C&CN, PEN, MSSS to spread to your army via combined fire rules.
This problem is actually a bit of a complex one once you start trying to shoehorn all of your units into an efficient list. At this very early stage, a buff suit of some kind seems more or less mandatory in games of, like, 1000+ points, to throw out a rather arbitrary number. As you said, sticking a buffmander with Marker Drones is sub optimal because you're forced to either waste a bunch of marker lights or not get your buffmander buffs on whatever wants to use the markers. That's a big issue for me since I've always leaned heavily towards a Mark'o and drones as my marker light source. Pathfinders I find quite underwhelming, mostly due to how fragile they are, and Skyrays and Tetras are pretty tough to come by if you're using the Hunter Contingent. If you want to avoid using Pathfinders (and I do), the best options I can come up with are these:
1) Have 2 commanders: a Mark'o and a buffmander. In a Hunter Contingent, this option costs you a Crisis Bodyguard tax since you'll have to take a Command formation to get the second Commander. I don't see this one as a particularly good use of points.
2) Use a Crisis Shas'vre as your buff suit. You lose a lot of flexibility and durability with this option since your buff source won't be an independent character. As I interpret the rules, the buff suit will become worthless as soon as the rest of the suits in the unit die since it won't actually be able to target anything, itself.
3) Have an allied CAD for SKyrays and/or Tetras. This one is sounding pretty decent to me, but I wish it wasn't so expensive (at least Ethereal plus 90 pts of FW just to get your marker source).
4) Bite the bullet and use Pathfinders. I haven't done the math yet, but it's sounding like the list acrobatics necessary to get markers from other places might not be worth it, even despite how flimsy and static these guys are. Maybe take 3 minimum units of them to get a bonus BS against whatever you're targeting so they're at least more reliable? Drones themselves are 80 pts for 5 ML hits, while you'd either spend 110 on 10 pathfinders for the same or get 8 hits for 132 pts spread across the 3 units. Meh.
5) Ignore ML altogether and rely on the buffmander and the new army-wide bonuses for killy goodness. I plan on running an OSC most of the time, so a good 650 pts of my army will ignore cover and have a bonus BS anyway. Maybe you can get away without ML at all? If you're taking a Stormsurge, though, that's probably a poor strategy.
It's definitely not a bad idea to have buffmander in a unit of drones. It's especially nice given that they have relentless, and if you take them in the same unit as buffmander, they can move + run + shoot + jump in the assault phase. No you won't be able to mark the unit that buffmander shoots at. But realistically, those units will get +1 BS, TL, ignores cover. So even if you're shooting with no other benefits, you hit 89% of the time. If you could markerlight and get up to BS 5, that would increase to 97% hit rate. But really you only need 1 markerlight. Just have something else shoot at the unit first. Even a squad of 4 pathfinders (or like, literally, any other source of markerlights) will get the job done. And that's if it even matters.
Then with buffmander and the drones, you do definitely need to give his friends (probably crisis suits) a target lock so that they can fire elsewhere, while the drones light up a different target. And with drone controller, they'll be BS 6 and re-rolling misses (how does twin-linked BS 6 work anyhow?)
So....has anybody tried to max out the formation yet? lol... I find it funny they gave us the ability to take infinite Cores when even 1 Core is effin huge on its own, nevermind the 1-10 auxiliaries it takes too.
Also, why would you put buffmander in a drone squad? Gun drones are twinlinked already and become BS5 with any commander via Drone Controller. Giving them ignores cover isnt that big of a boon since its just S5 AP5 weapons. Keep him in a crisis missilepod squad. Sits at a distance, makes the crisis suits deadly as gak, and buffs the ML drones to BS5 with rerolls. Keep him out of broadsides. Like, seriously, why the heck would you put him in there? Crisis suits can re-position to actually use the ignore cover and they arent TL by default so they benefit from the reroll to hit. Same gun so they want the same targets, but broadsides cannot re-position for crap if something is out of range or blocking line of sight and if thats not a problem they dont really need the bonuses anyway.
The best way is to go Mark'O and Buffmander as separate models. If you mix them up, Hunter Contingent becomes a lot weaker.
One of them can come from a CAD or from either Command or Retaliation formations, while the other cans tart on table.
maceria wrote: He is wasted on missilesides. They already have ignores cover and TL.
Gun drones are twinlinked already and become BS5 with any commander via Drone Controller.
This begs the question, are gun and missile drones now totally awesome? Does the DC count for other units of drones when they're all firing together? It seems like that may be stretching the combined fire rules a bit, but it's worth a thought. Widespread BS5 on cheap units is something you could build an army around pretty easily.
The thing is, you go second. Your opponent either takes the first blood bait and kills one of your units (the infiltration cadre being literally the ONLY things on the table) and you get all your reserves T1.
Otherwise, he doesn't get first blood, and you've got a few units given basically no resistance. Pathfinders lighting things up and throwing missiles. Piranhas with FB can start ALL THE WAY FORWARD, then be in striking distance of something tasty. Stealth suits being ignored for a turn can do some nasty things, since you can infiltrate them at exactly 12" from what you want to kill.
The idea is that you give your opponent the hard choice: either kill these things, get first blood, and make it rain; or let some not insignificant shooting hurt them first turn, only to delay most of your suits for only 1 turn.
I've been giving the Infiltration Cadre a lot of thought over the past day. I'm willing to try it out, but it really seems like it's tough to make the formation worthwhile. The Stealth suits kind of ruin everything. You're looking at ~400 pts of models I probably wouldn't take under most circumstances. The Hunter Cadre is going to be another 600 pts, if you go easy, so you've got maybe 800 to spend on the Retaliation Cadre. That's doable, I suppose. If you're going heavy reserves, though, wouldn't it be a lot easier and cheaper to just use a comms relay in some cheap fortification? Sure, it's not a guarantee to get your stuff in, but 8/9 chance per unit is pretty reliable.
Its not stretching the rule at all. They count as one unit, dronecontroller affects all drones in the bearer's unit.
However it doesnt affect missiledrones. It never has. Gun, sniper and marker drones only.
Yep it definitely works. Would be kind of hilarious to see someone with a million drones do that (maybe have 2 buffmanders to spread the love around). Forget ghostkeels! I have DRONES
Someone please post a video batrep of this at their earliest convenience
Tinkrr wrote: Don't forget, with a drone controller the drones also have significantly better BS than Pathfinders when running with a Buffmander.
More so, you can get Target Lock on your suits rather cheaply, so you can have your Marker Drones fire at one target, while your Suits go for a completely different one, and your Buffmander helps both D:
Tau can really gain a ton of Markerlights in very hidden ways, that don't force Pathfinder groups. Everything from Drones, Skyrays, Fireblades, FW leader upgrades, Tetras, and so forth. If anything, it might just be reasonable to take Pathfinders with special weapons at this point.
Buffmander with drones is dead with the new codex. You will not be able to use those marker lights efficiently because you need to already have the marker lights on a target before the buffmanders unit fires since they are not networked. This way you can get C&CN, PEN, MSSS to spread to your army via combined fire rules.
I think you're missing it. You're so focused on that but there are several reasons why "spreading" it in't necessarily the only use.
First, if I combine say three units to fire on one target, the overkill IS overkill. So early in the game, this will be pretty cool but later in the game it will be wasteful. Also some of the the weapons on the StormSurge can be made into D weapons ith Markerlights.
Markerlights aren't something you don't need anymore. Blasts dont scatter when theres enough markerlights.
I get that Markerlights won't be AS critical depending on how you build the force but in no world i live in do i foresee anyone not needing yet more. =)
That really depends on the rule set that you use. The ITC for example only counts the sharing of Markerlights when firing multiple units as one, so things like Drone Controllers and such won't benefit Drones out of the holders direct unit.
Also, what are all of you guys using for your auxiliaries in your Hunter Formation? There seem to be only three or so realistic choices, none of which really offer you access to Skyrays which really bothers me.
Vector Strike wrote: The best way is to go Mark'O and Buffmander as separate models. If you mix them up, Hunter Contingent becomes a lot weaker.
One of them can come from a CAD or from either Command or Retaliation formations, while the other cans tart on table.
maceria wrote: He is wasted on missilesides. They already have ignores cover and TL.
Missilesides don't ignore cover.
The SMS does. All of your shots are TL, half ignore cover. I've never thought sticking your buff'O in to make the other half of your shots TL was particularly useful. ML for ignore cover is.
luke1705 wrote:Yep it definitely works. Would be kind of hilarious to see someone with a million drones do that (maybe have 2 buffmanders to spread the love around). Forget ghostkeels! I have DRONES
Someone please post a video batrep of this at their earliest convenience
Now that you mention it, I'm pretty tempted to... if only missile drones were affected by Drone Controller.
maceria wrote:
The SMS does. All of your shots are TL, half ignore cover. I've never thought sticking your buff'O in to make the other half of your shots TL was particularly useful. ML for ignore cover is.
EDIT: typos.
The SMS is mostly complementary, but I agree with you that Buffmander has better places to be.
luke1705 wrote: Yep it definitely works. Would be kind of hilarious to see someone with a million drones do that (maybe have 2 buffmanders to spread the love around). Forget ghostkeels! I have DRONES
Someone please post a video batrep of this at their earliest convenience
My opponents are going to hate you for this. I already run huge Drone squads And the while not much point for Gun drones, the Drones got to BS6 with 3+ units involved. So that makes markerlight drones get a reroll just off BS.
I need more drones....
Oh, hey, you don't even have to waste a Commander for this, just use sniper drones teams. Now you have BS6 gundrones and Sniper Drones
This is true. And people are more likely to include Sniper Drones now days.
Their only real problem is they were outshined by their competition. I fully intend to start fielding sniper drone teams.
I think its also worth discussing tactics where units don't share special rules with combined fire.
For example... having MSU to help trigger multiple instances of the +1BS/Markerligth buff. Or/and cascading MSU markerlight squads (dare I say, BS3 drones?). Definitely makes squad leaders with markerlight and target locks more attractive (again assuming that dynamic of combined fire works with split fire).
The whole 3 squads to get +1BS makes me believe everyone will take minimal units every single time and just bring multiple cores. Since in the default core you can bring 3 individual Crisis Suits and treat them as one unit while they actually arent, so they almost always are BS4 until one dies off and nobody focuses with them. Which im not really a fan of that thought. It also makes you bring a ton of commanders though, now that i think about it (1 required commander per Core).
And yeah i know bringing 3 individual crisis suits like that would be dumb, but could be easily replaced with ghosts or riptides which would be worth it.
Though admit, that would be hilarious to see someone try that with everything and end up in a Kill Point game lol. Every suit death = 1 VP = auto lose LOL
Well something I just thought of - I believe that target locks contribute to the unit count. I threw a topic up in YMDC to be sure, but if a unit has a model with target lock and his unit attacks one unit, but he and two other units fire on a different unit, wouldn't they get the bonus anyhow?
This would cut down on MSU a ton. You could effectively have three units fire at three different targets and all get +1 BS if you had two target lock models in each unit if I am interpreting it correctly.
luke1705 wrote: Well something I just thought of - I believe that target locks contribute to the unit count. I threw a topic up in YMDC to be sure, but if a unit has a model with target lock and his unit attacks one unit, but he and two other units fire on a different unit, wouldn't they get the bonus anyhow?
This would cut down on MSU a ton. You could effectively have three units fire at three different targets and all get +1 BS if you had two target lock models in each unit if I am interpreting it correctly.
So hoping/assuming this is the case.. it then becomes of a question of being able to effectively target things.
I.e. Sure you can split off 100% of your splitfire units to trim down on the need of units to fulfil single/multiple combined fire buffs - but is it worthwhile to do so?
Basically what are good feeder units.
Or
What are good Combined Fire units - in terms of logistics/range/need of +1BS/Markerlights.
luke1705 wrote: Well something I just thought of - I believe that target locks contribute to the unit count. I threw a topic up in YMDC to be sure, but if a unit has a model with target lock and his unit attacks one unit, but he and two other units fire on a different unit, wouldn't they get the bonus anyhow?
This would cut down on MSU a ton. You could effectively have three units fire at three different targets and all get +1 BS if you had two target lock models in each unit if I am interpreting it correctly.
So hoping/assuming this is the case.. it then becomes of a question of being able to effectively target things.
I.e. Sure you can split off 100% of your splitfire units to trim down on the need of units to fulfil single/multiple combined fire buffs - but is it worthwhile to do so?
Basically what are good feeder units.
Or
What are good Combined Fire units - in terms of logistics/range/need of +1BS/Markerlights.
Combined Fire makes almost everything better. Pathfinders for instance become much better, and can land more markerlight hits and their special weapons become slightly less useless. Of course, their armor still sucks...
Riptides, Stormsurges, and Ghostkeels, pretty much the three biggest hitters in the codex, benefit the most from the +1 BS and additional markerlight abilities (probably just another +1 BS or ignores cover). This is because their blasts would scatter less, and the Ghostkeel needs the additional BS for hitting vehicles in the bum as many times as possible.
Problem with the stormsurge is its pretty much impossible to put in the formation unless youre willing to buy 2 of them. The Core formation doesnt give you an option and the only Aux formation requires a minimum of 2. And unless its in the formation, it cannot benefit from the coordinated fire for +1BS
Damn you GW and your moneygrabbing tactics.... lol
Said formation isnt even that great either, considering what the hell is firing to cause those effects.
If im playing bigger than 2k points though, im still bringing my stormsurge via the tiny CAD im bringing for Skyrays lol. I could run the formation for skyrays but i dont own 4 hammerhead bodies, and even though i like hammerheads i kinda dont want 3 of them lol
It occurs to me that Sniper Drones + Gunrig is one of the best markerlight sources in the book.
3 marksmen = 3 BS5 markerlights (minimum drones)
Tau Gunrig Firebase rule allows you to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 and The mobile defense platform allows it to move 6" while letting models on it remain stationary.
So you have Markerlights that hit 99% of the time that you can move and shoot, plus your drone (BS5 thanks to marksman drone controller!) can fire the TL railgun.
And as a small, almost negligible bonus, your other 2 sniper drones can reroll their sniper shots.
Unless someone can find something wrong with this, a min Tau CAD with the gunrig and a Hunter Cadre with a sniper drone team will be in every list I make.
Vineheart01 wrote: This is true. And people are more likely to include Sniper Drones now days.
Their only real problem is they were outshined by their competition. I fully intend to start fielding sniper drone teams.
Well just ran this with 5 drone networks attached to a Hunter Cadre for the Contingent. It was disturbing the kind of outbut and damage I was doing. PLayed against a DE list with Venoms, Ravengers, and Raiders. Also ran a PEN equiped body guard. The TL, BS6, Tankhunting drones shredded the skimmers. Then swapping to Monster hunter to punish the Chronos and Talos was gravy while always able to but the bonus were it worked best.
Also ran a minimum buffmander, but he got targeted out of the Broadside team turn one, so no idea how he would have played. The 6 minimum Firewarriors squads +5 Drone networks made it really easy to have BS4 FWs everywhere. Downside is overkill can be a serious problem.
MilkmanAl wrote: This problem is actually a bit of a complex one once you start trying to shoehorn all of your units into an efficient list. At this very early stage, a buff suit of some kind seems more or less mandatory in games of, like, 1000+ points, to throw out a rather arbitrary number. As you said, sticking a buffmander with Marker Drones is sub optimal because you're forced to either waste a bunch of marker lights or not get your buffmander buffs on whatever wants to use the markers. That's a big issue for me since I've always leaned heavily towards a Mark'o and drones as my marker light source. Pathfinders I find quite underwhelming, mostly due to how fragile they are, and Skyrays and Tetras are pretty tough to come by if you're using the Hunter Contingent. If you want to avoid using Pathfinders (and I do), the best options I can come up with are these:
1) Have 2 commanders: a Mark'o and a buffmander. In a Hunter Contingent, this option costs you a Crisis Bodyguard tax since you'll have to take a Command formation to get the second Commander. I don't see this one as a particularly good use of points.
I think you are correct this is the biggest problem I also faced whilst building lists with the cadre; How to get a buffmander AND a Mark'O.
But I think this solution you offered (Getting a Command with a commander and a bodyguard) is the best option. The bodyguard has a lot of ways to get milleage out of him and you're only paying a really small tax (the upgrade to shas'vre. You see, I think solo crisis suits are not bad units at all, I used them extensively in the Farsight supplement with great succes.
E.g. 2x missle pods(1x twin-linked), sit on/go for objectives, stay out of los. << That was how I used them, now, added bonus, can easily help create a concentrated fire attack. People don't like to waste their fire on him (even if they can see him), if he dies no big loss, if not, the shots add up. He's even pretty decent anti air (because of the one twin linked pod).
2x fusion(1x twin-linked), suicide melta, always good, again can easily contribute to get the fire power buff.
2x ABF! Seems like a fun way to hide out of LOS and spam pie-plates.
Now, doing this you get your 2x commander.
The only other way to get the second commander (retaliation) suffers from the formation; you REALLY want to DS him, but if you put him in reserve you can't get ML turn one, and can't join the drones at all. (You could join a crisis team from the formation with target locks and drones, this is actually a decent option, your markerlights arrive from DS turn 2 and can't be alpha-ed...bad scatters however...
So in conclusion, if you want buffmander and mark'o, I think the command formation is the easiest/best way to get it.
McNinja wrote: It occurs to me that Sniper Drones + Gunrig is one of the best markerlight sources in the book.
3 marksmen = 3 BS5 markerlights (minimum drones)
Tau Gunrig Firebase rule allows you to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 and The mobile defense platform allows it to move 6" while letting models on it remain stationary.
So you have Markerlights that hit 99% of the time that you can move and shoot, plus your drone (BS5 thanks to marksman drone controller!) can fire the TL railgun.
And as a small, almost negligible bonus, your other 2 sniper drones can reroll their sniper shots.
Unless someone can find something wrong with this, a min Tau CAD with the gunrig and a Hunter Cadre with a sniper drone team will be in every list I make.
I was thinking that sniper drones in general are just a good source of marker lights in general. The network marker lights mean that they can contribute to both coordinated firepower and still use their marker lights. About 80% of the time, all 3 will hit which is enough to remove cover and boost everyone to bs5 (assuming you got the +1 from coordinated firepower) Even if only 2 hit you can remove cover and bs4 is not too bad. Sniper drones are much more survivable than regular pathfinders, having T4 SV4+ and stealth. Also with pathfinders you need 4 marker light hits to get bs5 and ignores cover because they don't contribute to coordinated firepower. The sniper gun isn't too shabby either.
I had a situation come up with the coordinated firepower rule that my opponent was trying to contend - it seemed fair enough but I'm curious so I'm going to see what others might think.
The issue came up when I had my Mark'o commander split fire from three of his drones to hit another unit while he and a unit of Kroot and a Ghost Keel fired at a different unit in the building.
He was saying that the rules for split fire say that only one model from the unit could split there fire and since the commander joined in with the Kroot & Keel that only one of the drones would be able to fire a markerlight. I was contesting that since he's the one model firing he essentially counts as his own unit to join in on the coordinated firepower and that it didn't effect how many drones could shoot regardless of the split-fire rule...
I still believe that my way was the proper way but he insisted and since he was already having a rough game at this point I dropped the argument and proceeded as though only one marker-light had hit.
What do everyone else think?
I know there was some ideas proposed as far as giving a Riptide a couple drones and giving it the target lock so that his drones could count towards a number of units firing to receive the coordinated fire power. Or in the case of a Buff-O with a unit of Target locked crisis suits.
Would it be possible to get multiple coordinated fire-power in this way?
Target Lock allows the model to shoot at a different target than the rest of his unit. I don't understand why the marker drones were involved in this argument, however... was it a line of sight issue? Did he believe only one other model could shoot because your commander used his Target Lock?
The way I see if, if the commander used his Target Lock, he would count as a single unit for Coordinated Firepower at that target. If the rest of his unit fired somewhere else, they would not get the +1 to BS unless they too participated in Coordinated Firepower at that target.
It wasn't a line of sight issue I had six drones available only three could see the target and I didn't have them benefit from the coordinated fire-power since they were firing at a separate unit. The Commander joined in with the Keel & Kroot to fire at a different unit to gain the +1 to their BS...
seemed fair to me.
He just didn't think that I would be able to fire with more than one drone because the Split Fire rule says that only one model can split their fire from the target and even though I kept insisting that it was the Commander who was splitting his fire he argued that because the Commander was being counted as part of the larger unit for coordinated firepower that it was the drones splitting their fire from that unit and that only one of them would be able to do it...
I just didn't know what else to say to the guy - he's a nice enough guy so I don't want to say anything bad just trying to get some clarification.
Tau dont have Split Fire, we have Target Locks. Target Locks do not confer Split Fire, they specifically say "May fire at a different target" - this is not split fire.
GW really needs to put a FAQ up but the way i see it, if targetlocks are involved they are treated separately just like markerlights. Marks dont buff the entire squad if theyre shooting different targets, they only buff the ones hitting the marked unit - i dont see why Coordinated Fire would behave any different.
As in: 3 crisis suits in 1 unit. Two declare Coordinated Fire with a couple of Firewarrior squads and gain +1BS. The third that fired on his own, does not.
Unless they FAQ it to say only the "primary target of the unit" gains the benefit from Coordinated Fire, which would make sense from a balance perspective.
That's a great distinction with splitfire and target locks - thanks Vine!
Another related question.. what if like in your example the two crisis suits and the fire warriors coordinate their fire on one unit while the third suit splits fire off joining another two units firing at a separate target - would that count for coordinated fire?
digital-animal wrote: That's a great distinction with splitfire and target locks - thanks Vine!
Another related question.. what if like in your example the two crisis suits and the fire warriors coordinate their fire on one unit while the third suit splits fire off joining another two units firing at a separate target - would that count for coordinated fire?
Thats the part that to me is impossible to say RAW even though its clearly legal. Logic would dictate that they are no longer their normal unit for this shooting, and the individual models joins the "coordinated unit" - THAT makes sense to me rather than saying "This model is a part of this unit and also this unit" ... keep in mind thats just a logical assumption and how i intend to rule it, since i absolutely hate RAW gameplay since so many rules are broken RAW to be unusable, or have an illogical restriction/effect (i.e. one that makes absolutely 0 sense to allow). It still leaves a gray area about the Buffmander though, which i really cannot say how it would work without either contradicting myself or adding in an exceptional thing specifically to him.
And if your friend tries to claim its still splitfire, thats by far not the only rule that behaves like another rule without being that rule. Necrons have a "sniper" that wounds on a 2+ but its neither a Sniper nor Fleshbane. Snipers wound GMCs on a 6, but since said unit is not using Sniper rules it still wounds on a 2+. Behaves exactly like a buffed up sniper but its NOT a sniper.
You can not join a units fire with target locks because of timing. Each unit fires separately. The coordinated firepower rule lets you join the units target. A target lock lets you fire at a new unit at the same time. So when the second unit starts to fire the first unit and the model with the target lock already finished firing.
That...makes no sense How can they "A target lock lets you fire at a new unit at the same time" while also "target lock already finished firing" in the same context?
Target Locks happens simo. You have to declare everything before you roll anything, its been that way forever. Stormsurge is the only one i dont really bother because it has so many guns its hard to keep track of it as you go through (i just declare how many guns im firing at one unit so i dont cheat the system).
Target Locks literally just says "A model with Target Locks may fire at a different unit to the rest of his unit" Choose A Target mentions nothing about splitfire or any other rule that involves targeting multiple units, however the "declaring targets before rolling" still applies. Splitfire DOES say it fires before the rest of the unit, but as i mentioned before Target Locks are NOT Splitfire.
Yes, Coordinated Fire does work with Target Locks. If it didnt, it would shake the foundation Tau players are used to so hard it would be comical. Furthermore, Coordinated Fire specifically says you declare multiple units at once. Your argument about timing both on splitfire and between units would make the rule impossible to use period.
So am I the only one that thinks a Relation Cadre can be very powerful in a Hunter Contingent? The potential of deep striking Rail Sides with Relentless can be rather powerful, along with the ability to have some lone Melta-Suits or whatever dropping in.
It also does settle some of the issues with wanting a Mark'o and Buffmander in the same list.
Tinkrr wrote: So am I the only one that thinks a Relation Cadre can be very powerful in a Hunter Contingent? The potential of deep striking Rail Sides with Relentless can be rather powerful, along with the ability to have some lone Melta-Suits or whatever dropping in.
It also does settle some of the issues with wanting a Mark'o and Buffmander in the same list.
I like it - I like it even more if you have a few homing beacons in your list.
Most people would think that OSC and Ret. Force would work well together, but they actually do not, and it's all because of the Ghostkeels. If you want the keels and sealthsuits to have their formation rule, they need to be close to each other, and they can't be close to each other if the stealthsuits are infiltrating, which would be the case since you want the homing beacons in specific areas so you can be there and not die to scatter turn 2.
Unless you have confidence that the formation can all get to where you need them to be by the end of your turn 1.
Tinkrr wrote: So am I the only one that thinks a Relation Cadre can be very powerful in a Hunter Contingent? The potential of deep striking Rail Sides with Relentless can be rather powerful, along with the ability to have some lone Melta-Suits or whatever dropping in.
It also does settle some of the issues with wanting a Mark'o and Buffmander in the same list.
I like it - I like it even more if you have a few homing beacons in your list.
Most people would think that OSC and Ret. Force would work well together, but they actually do not, and it's all because of the Ghostkeels. If you want the keels and sealthsuits to have their formation rule, they need to be close to each other, and they can't be close to each other if the stealthsuits are infiltrating, which would be the case since you want the homing beacons in specific areas so you can be there and not die to scatter turn 2.
Unless you have confidence that the formation can all get to where you need them to be by the end of your turn 1.
I honestly don't like the OSC as a whole. I get their ability is awesome, but the fact still stands that Stealth Suits are super confused and could really use some kind of tweak, either making them troop choices, giving them the ability to take special weapons on all models, or simply upgrading their burst cannons to not be burst cannons, because after all they don't look like the burst cannons on the vehicles, Crisis Suits, or Riptide. It just looks different enough to be justifiable as its own thing...
I just think that the Ret. Cad, has a lot of potential, and can accommodate a couple of Suicide Suits in the required three suit slots, while the last one can go with a Buffmander as whatever. The ability to deep strike so well on turn two is just devastating, and relentless Rail Sides are a lot more desirable when you have access to Ghostkeels with Rakes, Missile Pod Turrets in all your squads, and much more in your main Hunter Cad list. It just seems right to then use the Ret Cad as a massive special weapons unit, with the main body of the Hunter Cad being all the missiles and markers.
Well, the OSR stealth suits can still infiltrate because its quite rare to infiltrate further than ~8" from your deployment zone anyway. First turn's movement and jump move prioritizes being within 6", moving forward second.
The Homing Beacon doesnt have to get the deepstrikers in the opposite corner of the board, just put them in the perfect spot to unload the dakka without weathering the attacks to get there.
Which is one reason i wish we could simply say "Nah, not coming in yet" to our reserves without a dice roll. If you could squeeze a stealthsuit with homing beacons behind enemy lines, that would be amazing. Getting that by turn 2 is pretty unlikely though.
And don't forget that the OSC Wall of Mirrors affects the Ghostkeels irregardless of their proximity to the Stealth Suits, so the Ghostkeel will always ignore cover, have +1 bs, and always hit the rear of vehicles.
Tinkrr wrote: So am I the only one that thinks a Relation Cadre can be very powerful in a Hunter Contingent? The potential of deep striking Rail Sides with Relentless can be rather powerful, along with the ability to have some lone Melta-Suits or whatever dropping in.
It also does settle some of the issues with wanting a Mark'o and Buffmander in the same list.
Yep. I've been using my railsides with plasma as elites hunters for a while. It's worked out quite nicely. And now they can deepstrike. with extra BS. And be relentless.
Personally, I don't really like the OSC. I find the infiltration cadre a much better fit for the Ke$ha formation.
If you were playing a larger game or took minimum sized units, you could get 3 or more commanders in a Hunter Contingent list. Contingent HQ, Cadre, and Retaliation Cadre, but in <2000 point games the rest of your lists would be sparse.
I haven't seen much talk of the Infiltration Cadre. Yes it has the Stealth suit tax but it seems like a very powerful tool in conjunction with the retaliation cadre. Note that I run a CAD instead of the hunter contingent and usually play 2-2.5k points. Having the retaliation force sitting in reserve seems pretty good to me since everyone shoots pathfinders first thing anyway. Its a one trick pony but people are kind of damned if they do or damned if they don't shoot them especially if they have first turn.
I personally do not like the idea of Broadsides or Riptides DSing in. I would prefer they be on the ground shooting from the get go, preferably with the broadsides in cover. So have your 7 pathfinders a squad, two minimum suits of stealth teams(I don't remember if they get homing beacons but if they do that's a nice bonus for this), and the random fusion piranha(no idea why this guy is part of this formation), I also start with the Riptide and broadsides on the board. Everything else is in reserve for deepstrike. This makes 8 potential targets on turn one for them to shoot at, spread them out and I doubt most opponents can kill them all.
When they concentrate fire to get rid of pathfinder teams, preferably if they went first, or if you severely threaten with a piranha(I put seekers on mine since there are so many marker lights first round). In theory you will lose something, and yes that gives them first blood, then everything else comes in on your first turn and you over whelm them with heavy firepower.
Correct me if I am wrong(my book is at home) but everything in the Retaliation cadre has BS4 the turn it DSs in and the Broadsides always have relentless right?
This is bare minimum since I use a lot of FW models as well. Having a Y'Vahra DS in on turn one is just mean.
part of the problem with the new formations is they make forgeworld difficult to bring.
Infiltration Cadre only affects the formation and the giant formation, its not literally all reserves. So your Y'Vahra wouldnt be affected.
Not that the Y'vahra needs support anyway. That thing is nuts.
Vineheart01 wrote: part of the problem with the new formations is they make forgeworld difficult to bring.
Infiltration Cadre only affects the formation and the giant formation, its not literally all reserves. So your Y'Vahra wouldnt be affected.
Not that the Y'vahra needs support anyway. That thing is nuts.
No, it affect ALL UNITS IN RESERVE. Even allies. Infiltration Cadre is really that good.
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Col. Dash wrote: I haven't seen much talk of the Infiltration Cadre. Yes it has the Stealth suit tax but it seems like a very powerful tool in conjunction with the retaliation cadre. Note that I run a CAD instead of the hunter contingent and usually play 2-2.5k points. Having the retaliation force sitting in reserve seems pretty good to me since everyone shoots pathfinders first thing anyway. Its a one trick pony but people are kind of damned if they do or damned if they don't shoot them especially if they have first turn.
I personally do not like the idea of Broadsides or Riptides DSing in. I would prefer they be on the ground shooting from the get go, preferably with the broadsides in cover. So have your 7 pathfinders a squad, two minimum suits of stealth teams(I don't remember if they get homing beacons but if they do that's a nice bonus for this), and the random fusion piranha(no idea why this guy is part of this formation), I also start with the Riptide and broadsides on the board. Everything else is in reserve for deepstrike. This makes 8 potential targets on turn one for them to shoot at, spread them out and I doubt most opponents can kill them all.
When they concentrate fire to get rid of pathfinder teams, preferably if they went first, or if you severely threaten with a piranha(I put seekers on mine since there are so many marker lights first round). In theory you will lose something, and yes that gives them first blood, then everything else comes in on your first turn and you over whelm them with heavy firepower.
Correct me if I am wrong(my book is at home) but everything in the Retaliation cadre has BS4 the turn it DSs in and the Broadsides always have relentless right?
This is bare minimum since I use a lot of FW models as well. Having a Y'Vahra DS in on turn one is just mean.
Infiltration Cadre isn't the same from the Burning Dawn book. Infiltratio Cadre allows you to field 3 UNITS of Pathfinders, 2 UNITS of Stealth Suits and an entire UNIT of Piranhas.
Burning Dawn formation only works well in small games.
Yes, Broadsides from Retaliation Cadre always have Relentless. The BS4 bonus is only if the entire formation DS turn 2, however.
Yeah, I thought the line about any unit in reserve may deepstrike in your next turn part was pretty specific. Its probably the most synergistic formation in the game, while the others are fairly stand alone in what they do and bring to the table. By itself its kind of meh without a good force to take advantage of it. Maybe I will bring a monat Broadside just to fill the slot and DS with it and have a dedicated CAD broadside unit on the board for actual fire support.
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
Johnnytorrance wrote: Tau tactics? let me see...sit back at your table edge and shoot your opponent off the table.
most boring faction in the game. no movement phase, no psychic phase, the shooting phase is 95% of your turn and of course no assault phase.
Isn't that Tank/Artillery AM?
Most Tau weapons don't have enough range to engage from table edge (I've learned long ago never to place units on your table edge after I scared an entire Ork Loota squad into first blood) save for a few weapons. Tau optimal range is around 36, 30, and 15 inches with a few outliers, using the ability to decimate units or effective hit and run, (move shoot, move run shoot, jump shoot jump). If you can sit back at your table edge and win, either you're beating up on new players or you're being given the win.
No, the most boring race in the game is IG - THEY sit there behind their lines and fire at table range because everybody is too dumb to actually utilize their non-tankline tactics.
Tau are actually pretty bad at the long range game, were great at the mid-range. The average 2k list will have ~3 long range guns, with the rest being medium (no more than 36"). And i betcha 2 if not all 3 of those will also have Gets Hot slapped on.
I move forward with my Tau. I rarely engage, but i dont sit back at maximum range. I try to keep Rapid Fire range as long as possible, and i usually start getting Rapid Fire by turn 2 and keep it till turn 4 before i get charged.
Most Tau weapons don't have enough range to engage from table edge (I've learned long ago never to place units on your table edge after I scared an entire Ork Loota squad into first blood) save for a few weapons. Tau optimal range is around 36, 30, and 15 inches with a few outliers, using the ability to decimate units or effective hit and run, (move shoot, move run shoot, jump shoot jump). If you can sit back at your table edge and win, either you're beating up on new players or you're being given the win.
Exactly you've got to get close enough to fire/ score.
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
I disagree.
It does not COMPETE in the melee phase. it does not COMPETE in the Psyker phase, yet you're dismayed that it does well in the shooting phase? How unfair does it NEED to be before you think its fair? Lol. It's not like they are paragons of fortitude! Their Riptides are ther only thing that IS and it can't fight either.
Look. The answer to Tau hasn't changed SINCE they were invented. Its so simple it hurts to even have to say it. But fine. I'll say it.
You get in the fastest thing you have and you go as fast as you can towards them. You do not try to outshoot them. You run and just bring bodies. Then you use the throw away remnants they've shot up to absorb overwatch and then you kill their faces off if they are stupid enough to gunline you.
That's it.
And if you want to get super fancy, get a comms relay, get a bunch of cheap deep strikers and outflankers and saturate them all at once, giving them just one turn, and then butcher them.
Meanwhile, Tau Generals like me have embraced a far more mobile form of Tau warfare. Because we dont want this to happen to us. And it will happen to us if we face a general who knows better than to try and get into a shooting war. Even my enemies WORST troops can probably knock my block off!
7E absolutely gives you every reason to embrace speed as a weapon. It gave you Maelstrom, it's given you objective intensive tournament formats, it's given every army an expanding list of units and the ones you need to pinpoint for yourself are those that get you there fast.
Its no accident that White Scars do well. Its no accident that Scatterbikes are feared. Its no accident that I play a Dark eldar list whose only job in life is movement and melee. Its no accident that the best performing Blood Angels lists have flyers and its no accident that the Tau Empire only really does cool things in one phase of the entire game. but it DOES do cool things in that phase, and that's the way it has always been. Like always. And the answer has literally never changed.
Me. I move my troops, tactically position them. If I have psykers, I utilize their abilities. I shoot at those targets in range. If I can assault, I will Charge and continue the game in the CC phase where my opponent also has a turn within my turn.
tau player. move very little, jump pack units into range.
Marker lights, more marker lights, more marker lights, shoot, shoot, shoot, and reroll, and shoot, and reroll, and shoot, and reroll, and wound, and reroll, and wound, and reroll and wound and reroll.
assault phase, jump pack units back into starting position or behind cover.
essentially the entire Tau turn is shooting, like 95%. As an Amateur Battle Report producer, its the most boring games to watch and very boring to play against.
at this point, during the Tau shooting phase, I just let my opponent roll my saves too, I can do dishes, clean the grout in my tiles, do my taxes or get started on my 30k hobbying.
Automatically Appended Next Post: most tournaments play Dawn of war table deployment. Tau are boring.
This guy pretty much says it all.
Nice, jazz hands.
The codex has most of the rules from the old one, and actually adds more short range weapons and options save for the Pulse Driver Cannon.
If you think you can only play Tau as a castle to be effective, then that is how far you can play against them. Seeing how one of the most suggested tactic in 7e is a point blank turn 1/2 beta deep strike, prepare to be caught with your pants down sir.
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
I disagree.
It does not COMPETE in the melee phase. it does not COMPETE in the Psyker phase, yet you're dismayed that it does well in the shooting phase? How unfair does it NEED to be before you think its fair? Lol. It's not like they are paragons of fortitude! Their Riptides are ther only thing that IS and it can't fight either.
Look. The answer to Tau hasn't changed SINCE they were invented. Its so simple it hurts to even have to say it. But fine. I'll say it.
You get in the fastest thing you have and you go as fast as you can towards them. You do not try to outshoot them. You run and just bring bodies. Then you use the throw away remnants they've shot up to absorb overwatch and then you kill their faces off if they are stupid enough to gunline you.
That's it.
And if you want to get super fancy, get a comms relay, get a bunch of cheap deep strikers and outflankers and saturate them all at once, giving them just one turn, and then butcher them.
Meanwhile, Tau Generals like me have embraced a far more mobile form of Tau warfare. Because we dont want this to happen to us. And it will happen to us if we face a general who knows better than to try and get into a shooting war. Even my enemies WORST troops can probably knock my block off!
7E absolutely gives you every reason to embrace speed as a weapon. It gave you Maelstrom, it's given you objective intensive tournament formats, it's given every army an expanding list of units and the ones you need to pinpoint for yourself are those that get you there fast.
Its no accident that White Scars do well. Its no accident that Scatterbikes are feared. Its no accident that I play a Dark eldar list whose only job in life is movement and melee. Its no accident that the best performing Blood Angels lists have flyers and its no accident that the Tau Empire only really does cool things in one phase of the entire game. but it DOES do cool things in that phase, and that's the way it has always been. Like always. And the answer has literally never changed.
I know how to beat Tau, I play my KDK or Orks against them. I have some very fast moving KDK and Ork Armies. Tau have a very hard time countering them all the time. it still doesn't negate the fact that Tau are extremely boring to play and play against. You should video tape a battle report against Tau...you'll see what I mean.
Well, there may be hope for you for the Psychic phase, Grey Knights are trying to help Farsight to change his "destiny" so he doesn't lose his soul stopping the oncoming Imperium Crusade to annihilate the Tau.
So you will either get GK allies (yay?) or Chaos Tau (boo) in the Farsight book.
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
I disagree.
It does not COMPETE in the melee phase. it does not COMPETE in the Psyker phase, yet you're dismayed that it does well in the shooting phase? How unfair does it NEED to be before you think its fair? Lol. It's not like they are paragons of fortitude! Their Riptides are ther only thing that IS and it can't fight either.
Look. The answer to Tau hasn't changed SINCE they were invented. Its so simple it hurts to even have to say it. But fine. I'll say it.
You get in the fastest thing you have and you go as fast as you can towards them. You do not try to outshoot them. You run and just bring bodies. Then you use the throw away remnants they've shot up to absorb overwatch and then you kill their faces off if they are stupid enough to gunline you.
That's it.
And if you want to get super fancy, get a comms relay, get a bunch of cheap deep strikers and outflankers and saturate them all at once, giving them just one turn, and then butcher them.
Meanwhile, Tau Generals like me have embraced a far more mobile form of Tau warfare. Because we dont want this to happen to us. And it will happen to us if we face a general who knows better than to try and get into a shooting war. Even my enemies WORST troops can probably knock my block off!
7E absolutely gives you every reason to embrace speed as a weapon. It gave you Maelstrom, it's given you objective intensive tournament formats, it's given every army an expanding list of units and the ones you need to pinpoint for yourself are those that get you there fast.
Its no accident that White Scars do well. Its no accident that Scatterbikes are feared. Its no accident that I play a Dark eldar list whose only job in life is movement and melee. Its no accident that the best performing Blood Angels lists have flyers and its no accident that the Tau Empire only really does cool things in one phase of the entire game. but it DOES do cool things in that phase, and that's the way it has always been. Like always. And the answer has literally never changed.
I know how to beat Tau, I play my KDK or Orks against them. I have some very fast moving KDK and Ork Armies. Tau have a very hard time countering them all the time. it still doesn't negate the fact that Tau are extremely boring to play and play against. You should video tape a battle report against Tau...you'll see what I mean.
The worst thing about Tau battle reports is how often people get the rules wrong. Tau work on massive synergy between units, almost like how a Magic deck synergies with its cards. When people get the rules wrong, its like someone trying to equip a fireball to a creature and you know they are most likely going to lose.
Automatically Appended Next Post: most tournaments play Dawn of war table deployment. Tau are boring.
This guy pretty much says it all.
Interesting. This guy isn't very tactically minded. He has a burning desire to see supporting fire eliminated,and thinks that rue alone causes players to turtle their entire force? Interesting. the codex has a huge amount of Deep Striking, infiltrating, Scouting and so on in it.
He's ignoring Banshees (and one can easily understand why) and Dirge Casters (which work great against Tau as I've learned). He's giving Tau Generals no credit at all in this diveo. and hes undervaluing how far 12" really is.
If I took pics of a hundred battle reports, and looked at how far apart all the units are from one another, I wonder how many, proportionally would be far flung, vs. easily within a supportable distance of one another?
meh. he needs to have like a discussion on this or something in the video because his feelings about Tau seem entirely based on someone wanting Supporting fire so bad they'll sacrifice a bunch of their offensive ability to get it. For example, IG FREQUENTLY bring Wyverns and sometiimes Manticores and such. How does turtling help against them? When the forces of the Dark eldar are on you turn one and all those Tau can shoot at is Raider hulls for a round, no amount of overwatch is going to help and multicharges are a nobrainer against Tau given the Supporting Fire rule? Dark Eldar have fought like this since the ancient Witch Cult days.
I know a gunline can absolutely devastate a slower moving force that tries to approach. THAt I can ttest to becaue when I SEE such a force I'm all about it. but 7E does not reward that kind of army as often so...
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
I disagree.
It does not COMPETE in the melee phase. it does not COMPETE in the Psyker phase, yet you're dismayed that it does well in the shooting phase? How unfair does it NEED to be before you think its fair? Lol. It's not like they are paragons of fortitude! Their Riptides are ther only thing that IS and it can't fight either.
Look. The answer to Tau hasn't changed SINCE they were invented. Its so simple it hurts to even have to say it. But fine. I'll say it.
You get in the fastest thing you have and you go as fast as you can towards them. You do not try to outshoot them. You run and just bring bodies. Then you use the throw away remnants they've shot up to absorb overwatch and then you kill their faces off if they are stupid enough to gunline you.
That's it.
And if you want to get super fancy, get a comms relay, get a bunch of cheap deep strikers and outflankers and saturate them all at once, giving them just one turn, and then butcher them.
Meanwhile, Tau Generals like me have embraced a far more mobile form of Tau warfare. Because we dont want this to happen to us. And it will happen to us if we face a general who knows better than to try and get into a shooting war. Even my enemies WORST troops can probably knock my block off!
7E absolutely gives you every reason to embrace speed as a weapon. It gave you Maelstrom, it's given you objective intensive tournament formats, it's given every army an expanding list of units and the ones you need to pinpoint for yourself are those that get you there fast.
Its no accident that White Scars do well. Its no accident that Scatterbikes are feared. Its no accident that I play a Dark eldar list whose only job in life is movement and melee. Its no accident that the best performing Blood Angels lists have flyers and its no accident that the Tau Empire only really does cool things in one phase of the entire game. but it DOES do cool things in that phase, and that's the way it has always been. Like always. And the answer has literally never changed.
I know how to beat Tau, I play my KDK or Orks against them. I have some very fast moving KDK and Ork Armies. Tau have a very hard time countering them all the time. it still doesn't negate the fact that Tau are extremely boring to play and play against. You should video tape a battle report against Tau...you'll see what I mean.
I agree with Jancoran about that "review" guy. This guy clearly has a single-minded view on the game and doesnt consider literally anything except "generic movement" to counter the tau gameplay. And supporting fire RARELY is a dealbreaker for me, its usually just a way to add 1 more death to overwatch results - as i rarely get more than that without getting some lucky markerlights in there first.
Markerlights literally dont help for jack with the Stormsurge unless it focuses all of its guns on 1-2 targets. Our Str D missiles are by far not unfair because they are not seeker missiles, meaning we need 3 markerlights to reliably hit it and either roll a 6 to ignore cover or add 2 more marks to ignore cover 2-5 results. It can be missed, quite easily at that, and its a single use unlike a LOT of other Str D weapons.
Not to mention, we need more markerlights between shots created by Stabilizers. The Stormsurge needs an insane amount of markerlights to properly support, its better off on its own without MLs except on of course the main target you want dead this turn to slap the S10 blast on.
"Eldar can play lot of maneuverability and tactical gameplay" LOL! Eldar are even worse than Tau with the static gameplay, they LITERALLY dont do anything but spam wraith units and psykers. I dont know a single eldar player that actually utilizes their mobility even half as much as tau players.
Talk about a biased review. There are five Tau players in my area, and not a single one of us do gunlines - we are all highly mobile, deepstrike happy, and run and gun happy.
I play Tau and I have a mixed gunline/ mid field strategy that blends well together and I believe these formations and new rules will make me unbeatable in my meta. I'll have to scale back a bit if I want to keep my friends. :/
Vineheart01 wrote: I agree with Jancoran about that "review" guy. This guy clearly has a single-minded view on the game and doesnt consider literally anything except "generic movement" to counter the tau gameplay. And supporting fire RARELY is a dealbreaker for me, its usually just a way to add 1 more death to overwatch results - as i rarely get more than that without getting some lucky markerlights in there first.
Markerlights literally dont help for jack with the Stormsurge unless it focuses all of its guns on 1-2 targets. Our Str D missiles are by far not unfair because they are not seeker missiles, meaning we need 3 markerlights to reliably hit it and either roll a 6 to ignore cover or add 2 more marks to ignore cover 2-5 results. It can be missed, quite easily at that, and its a single use unlike a LOT of other Str D weapons.
Not to mention, we need more markerlights between shots created by Stabilizers. The Stormsurge needs an insane amount of markerlights to properly support, its better off on its own without MLs except on of course the main target you want dead this turn to slap the S10 blast on.
"Eldar can play lot of maneuverability and tactical gameplay" LOL! Eldar are even worse than Tau with the static gameplay, they LITERALLY dont do anything but spam wraith units and psykers. I dont know a single eldar player that actually utilizes their mobility even half as much as tau players.
Talk about a biased review. There are five Tau players in my area, and not a single one of us do gunlines - we are all highly mobile, deepstrike happy, and run and gun happy.
Precisely. The internet is full of opinions and lots of them are worth reading. but the gross overgeneralization over Tau Tactics by people just tells me two things: One, there's a lot of non-dynamic thinkers in this game and second, exxageration is not dead.
It's kind of like Adepta Sororitas. I'll wager that many people (not all) have maybe played 5% of their games against this faction. I personally am closer to 10% just because of my meta but the vast majority do not own this army and of those who own it, a vast majority play other armies as often or more often than that one. Yet... The internet is just filled with opinons about them that are wrong. I literally had someone tell me the other day on another Dakka thread that they had no answer for Imperial Knights. Eh... Fer serious dude? Have you SEEN that codex?
So yeah. pessimists gonna' Pessimate I guess. And yes: i made that word up just now. And It's awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DirtyDeeds wrote: I play Tau and I have a mixed gunline/ mid field strategy that blends well together and I believe these formations and new rules will make me unbeatable in my meta. I'll have to scale back a bit if I want to keep my friends. :/
Dunno bout all that but I do know that learnign the ENTIRE codex is a lot of fun and can yield really interesting battles. So perhaps just diversifying your approach will allow you to play just as competitively and yet not give the IMPRESSION that all is lost.
The illusion of a chance is better than the certainty you describe. =)
Vineheart01 wrote: There are five Tau players in my area, and not a single one of us do gunlines - we are all highly mobile, deepstrike happy, and run and gun happy.
This is how the Tau players in meta are as well.
Gunlines don't work unless they have mobile elements up front as well.
Shooting a lot=/=static gunline. Yeah, you can sit and turtle if you really want, but that's not how Tau were competing in tournaments prior to the codex. It's certainly not how they're going to compete now. Ghostkeels are very mobile, and with the awesomeness of the OSC, I anticipate quite a few armies pressing forward early to control the midfield. All our units can run and shoot! Sure, they're not Eldar jetbikes, but moderate range combined with that kind of mobility is potent.
That said, our game has shifted from a 30-ish inch contest of Broadsides raining missiles and Crisis suits JSJing all over the place to a much more complex web of units synergizing each other with slightly shorter ranges. You're going to have to use your mobility to keep everything positioned appropriately.
Mobility is the way to victory in 7E. Gunlines are cool if the enemy army calls for it. I mean why NOT take advantage of an unprepared foes unfortunate choices? Its your job in a wargame. So maybe its just that the gunline Tau players dont play against a large number of deployment option rich armies? That could be the case I guess? I dont think that it would lead you to this guys opinion necessarily but it would at least explain it a little bit.
Ahh interesting. I dont need to run a monat afterall and can still run the full retaliation cadre with an infiltration cadre. The bonus BS only requires the units in it to DS, but not necessarily to DS with the rest of the formation, thus I can still start the broadsides on the board and DS with the rest getting the bonus. With all the markerlights from the pathfinders the broadsides wont need the BS anyway.
Since I will need a commander, I am thinking a XV-81(I think) with the integral networked marker light to start on the board to boost the broadsides in case of drop pods from my opponent.
DirtyDeeds wrote:I play Tau and I have a mixed gunline/ mid field strategy that blends well together and I believe these formations and new rules will make me unbeatable in my meta. I'll have to scale back a bit if I want to keep my friends. :/
Well, to be fair its pretty hard if not impossible to completely avoid the gunline tactics. I bring Broadsides every game, they never move. But aside from the new Stormsurge i got, literally nothing else stayed put unless my firewarriors were already in optimal Rapid Fire range. Two units being completely stationary does not mean i do a Gunline tactic, but i still have elements of it. Heck, i play my orks insanely assaulty in the 7th ed book (total flip from 6th to me). Slugga choppas, MANz missiles, warbikers, walkers, etc. I still use Lobbas and Lootas. Am i a gunliner? Heck fething no lol.
So yeah. pessimists gonna' Pessimate I guess. And yes: i made that word up just now. And It's awesome.
Col. Dash wrote: Ahh interesting. I dont need to run a monat afterall and can still run the full retaliation cadre with an infiltration cadre. The bonus BS only requires the units in it to DS, but not necessarily to DS with the rest of the formation, thus I can still start the broadsides on the board and DS with the rest getting the bonus. With all the markerlights from the pathfinders the broadsides wont need the BS anyway.
Since I will need a commander, I am thinking a XV-81(I think) with the integral networked marker light to start on the board to boost the broadsides in case of drop pods from my opponent.
Don't forget that you don't get turn two auto deep strike unless all of your formation is in reserves. If you leave some out, it also risks being shot at instead of the Infiltration Cadre, which you need one of to die to get the drop first turn. It still sounds like it is far better to leave all of them in reserves so you can deep strike them into better positions than simply deploying them.
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
Turtle? A friend of mine plays a strike team-heavy mobile force that is based ENTIRELY around getting upfield and into rapid fire range as fast as possible.
He rarely uses markerlights, and doesn't even own a riptide. I don't think he's lost a game yet, and he's had the same army list since 6th dropped. If you think that a static gunline is the only way to play Tau, you're wrong and have no idea how to play Tau.
Tau has two things going for it, shooting and mobility. Why would you want to scrap one of those thing and play gunline? This codex seems even more mobility based. The best formations are the optimized stealth cadre and the retaliation cadre. One has a maximum range of 24" and the other one give deep strike and relentless to our broadsides which was our only non-mobile unit.
With tau you need to move up, focus down one area of your opponents army and then jump into that hole you just made.
lambsandlions wrote: Tau has two things going for it, shooting and mobility. Why would you want to scrap one of those thing and play gunline? This codex seems even more mobility based. The best formations are the optimized stealth cadre and the retaliation cadre. One has a maximum range of 24" and the other one give deep strike and relentless to our broadsides which was our only non-mobile unit.
With tau you need to move up, focus down one area of your opponents army and then jump into that hole you just made.
Turtle? A friend of mine plays a strike team-heavy mobile force that is based ENTIRELY around getting upfield and into rapid fire range as fast as possible.
He rarely uses markerlights, and doesn't even own a riptide. I don't think he's lost a game yet, and he's had the same army list since 6th dropped. If you think that a static gunline is the only way to play Tau, you're wrong and have no idea how to play Tau.
In all seriousness, yes Tau can do gunlines and yes it technically works when your opponent doesnt know how to deal with it. I'd rather run circles around my enemies and pepper their hides with high rate of fire guns than sit at a distance and hope to god i dont face a droppod army, biker rush army, or an IG tankline (AV14 is damn near impossible without some REALLY good luck on tau's end to take out at table range)
And i have literally ran circles around my opponents before. Crisis team with duo plasmas did a large circle around a couple of units and avoid charge every time by a couple inches. Thats hilarious when that happens lol
Mobile Tau armies are much, much more versatile to the situation at hand, while gunlines gotta hope they dont face a counter. Find a counter, you lose unless the dice really hate your opponent.
I think closer to the mark is, some enemies simply cant be ready for it. They are too slow. and when that happens... By all mens gunline. They asked for it in those cases.
In all seriousness, yes Tau can do gunlines and yes it technically works when your opponent doesnt know how to deal with it. I'd rather run circles around my enemies and pepper their hides with high rate of fire guns than sit at a distance and hope to god i dont face a droppod army, biker rush army, or an IG tankline (AV14 is damn near impossible without some REALLY good luck on tau's end to take out at table range)
And i have literally ran circles around my opponents before. Crisis team with duo plasmas did a large circle around a couple of units and avoid charge every time by a couple inches. Thats hilarious when that happens lol
Mobile Tau armies are much, much more versatile to the situation at hand, while gunlines gotta hope they dont face a counter. Find a counter, you lose unless the dice really hate your opponent.
Well, IG tank lines USED to be a problem. We have OSC now
The only real issue I see is packing enough AP 3 to knock out biker armies. Probably worth a riptide to get some shots at range since you can also ignore cover with it with good ol' buffmander. Actually considering some Railsides in my list because of this. Also because if they get the Skyfire warlord trait (as I currently plan to run buffmander with them to try out) that would be pretty dope.
Unrelated question - I see a lot of people running a bunch of EWO upgrades on models and units that don't have a velocity fracker. Why is this? That seems very inefficient
Actually i pretty much exclusively roll on Command Traits for my warlord trait. 4 of 6 of them are damn powerful for Tau.
A second LD10 bubble (if you have an ethereal that is) for almost entire army LD10. Moves through cover. No more danger tests on crisis/stealth suits! Reroll to hits of 1 in shooting. Yeah doesnt benefit Buffmander's unit but 12" bubble makes about half of your army benefit largely, especially those Gets Hot fethers. Rerolls to hits of 1 in melee isnt as powerful but its still very useful since if we get in that situation, its a godsent to have around lol.
I find the Tau specific ones to be very, very situational at best. The ability to deny Look Out Sir is awesome but our warlord is always a buffmander so its never used. I'd like it on Shadowsun but she has her own trait and unfortunately we cant simply pick another.
Also the OSR is only good against IG AV14 when they get up close. Weve always had answers up close for AV14 - Fusion spam. Admittedly OSR does a much better job even with bursts than a couple crisis could ever do with fusions on the face.
Well, IG tank lines USED to be a problem. We have OSC now
The only real issue I see is packing enough AP 3 to knock out biker armies. Probably worth a riptide to get some shots at range since you can also ignore cover with it with good ol' buffmander. Actually considering some Railsides in my list because of this. Also because if they get the Skyfire warlord trait (as I currently plan to run buffmander with them to try out) that would be pretty dope.
Unrelated question - I see a lot of people running a bunch of EWO upgrades on models and units that don't have a velocity fracker. Why is this? That seems very inefficient
I'm a Tau player who usually runs EWO and I've never used Velocity Trackers. EWO lets you do more than shoot down flyers. It'll wipe various deepstriking units and units that try to outflank as well which is generally what people are going to try to do to you to close the distance to your army quickly. As far as not needing velocity trackers, Missilesides get enough hits in on flyers coming on from reserves through twinlinked that they don't need velocity trackers. In the rare cases where a unit or two of broadsides were not able to kill the flyer, they've at least forced it to snapshoot which is usually good enough for me.
I would think that Ravenwing would be a scary opponent for Tau. Granted, Tau have markerlights which can take away their rerollable jink saves, but they are damn fast and fairly tough, especially those command squads with their FnP. Plus, if they charge from within 6" of a Darkshroud, they are immune to overwatch. Ouch.
I haven't played gunline Tau since I could field 9 Broadside with Strength 10 railguns (and even then I gave them Stabilization Systems so they could move)
I do personally hate the Supporting Fire rule. I think it encourages clumping up and static play, which, as has been noted, is boring (for the Tau player too).
I would have rather our army wide special rule was something like Darkstrider's ability to Consolidate after Overwatch. That rule pays off if you push the Tau up the table and maneuver them independently of each other. Much more interesting for everyone and much more reflective of the way the Tau actually would fight.
However, some of these formation special rules and new units are actually encouraging us up table.
Infiltration Cadre - put those units up table early in the game to score marker hits. Who cares if they get overrun as that triggers your Retaliation cadre to deep strike in with a buttload of Crisis Suits, Riptides and Relentless Broadsides/
Optimized Stealth Cadre - weapon ranges of 18 to 24 inches and the need to keep within 6 inches of each other means you have to push in close.
Heavy Retribution Cadre - okay, you probably want to park the Stormsurges in the backfield, but that Ghostkeel unit needs to get pretty close to the enemy to make use of the formation special rule.
Allied Advance Cadre - Benefits for putting units well forward in forested terrain
Breachers - they want to be less than 6 inches form the enemy, what more do we need to say there?
Hunter Cadre - the bigger Supporting Fire bubble means units have room to maneuver while Ambushes and Feints allows for some rapid movement.
I keep finding it funny how tau haters tend to focus on us being a boring gunline, when I literally hasn't seen a single tau gunline for the entirety of 7th edition and that every other inner-tau tactic discussion is just what us the best way to jump on people's positions with deepstrikers, rushes, outflank and infiltration.
Unrelated question - I see a lot of people running a bunch of EWO upgrades on models and units that don't have a velocity fracker. Why is this? That seems very inefficient
Because outflanking reserves can make mess of an entire Tau gunline or whatever is back there. The Haemonculous Coven for example can bring 5 Talos into your backfield. MIGHT wanna do something about that. And so on.
Unrelated question - I see a lot of people running a bunch of EWO upgrades on models and units that don't have a velocity fracker. Why is this? That seems very inefficient
EWO's are cheap and give you an out in many difficult situations.
NO1 thing they do is change a guaranteed First Blood against you into one for you vs. drop pod list (But this worked better with the old FBSC, you could always should a pod with 3 broadsides for almost guaranteed kill).
NO2 Protect you units against any form of deep strike, be it SkyHammer (And Tau is the only one with even a bit of an ''out'' against this, everyone else just has to sit there and take it.), other drop pods or some of the more exotic DS options like Falcons, WebWayed Firedragons/wraith guard and so on.
NO3 If your about to get charged and something deep strikes or arrives from reserve you get at least one more shot out of the unit (This is a lot better than it sounds).
Rule of thumb: Broadsides, Riptides, StormSurge always get EWO. Rest at your discretion.
The only way to get skyrays in the formation is the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, which unfortunately is the worst possible to way get skyrays because each unit of skyrays you want you need 3 units of hammerheads.
Just take Darkstrider for -1 T shenanigans, 2x5 Breachers and however many Skyrays you want, it's not like they really need re-roll to hit when they have TL weapons and BS5 Seekers.
I'm curious-are breacher squads any good at all? The problem I see is that their weapons have very short range (15" to even touch anything, 5" to be a significant threat). I would think a valid tactic would be to take a squad of ten with a Guardian drone in a Devilfish, run up the board in the 'fish, disembark right in front of some MEQ, and let them have some AP3 in the face! Then, if they survive the inevitable counterattack, they just pile back into the 'fish and do it again! The high strength of their guns could also make it possible to pop a Rhino/Chimera/Taurox so your battlesuits could start shooting whatever's inside. The guardian drone would help them survive the counterattack, and if you could park the 'fish in the right spot, it could block LOS for some dudes wanting a shot at your breachers. On paper it looks good, but is it really as good as it sounds?
DirtyDeeds wrote:I play Tau and I have a mixed gunline/ mid field strategy that blends well together and I believe these formations and new rules will make me unbeatable in my meta. I'll have to scale back a bit if I want to keep my friends. :/
Well, to be fair its pretty hard if not impossible to completely avoid the gunline tactics. I bring Broadsides every game, they never move. But aside from the new Stormsurge i got, literally nothing else stayed put unless my firewarriors were already in optimal Rapid Fire range. Two units being completely stationary does not mean i do a Gunline tactic, but i still have elements of it.
Heck, i play my orks insanely assaulty in the 7th ed book (total flip from 6th to me). Slugga choppas, MANz missiles, warbikers, walkers, etc. I still use Lobbas and Lootas. Am i a gunliner? Heck fething no lol.
So yeah. pessimists gonna' Pessimate I guess. And yes: i made that word up just now. And It's awesome.
Ok, that made me laugh for real. Nice one lol
Mobile tau FTW! My army (with it's 6 Dfish) might not be the most competitive, but it sure is fun.
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ZergSmasher wrote: I'm curious-are breacher squads any good at all? The problem I see is that their weapons have very short range (15" to even touch anything, 5" to be a significant threat). I would think a valid tactic would be to take a squad of ten with a Guardian drone in a Devilfish, run up the board in the 'fish, disembark right in front of some MEQ, and let them have some AP3 in the face! Then, if they survive the inevitable counterattack, they just pile back into the 'fish and do it again! The high strength of their guns could also make it possible to pop a Rhino/Chimera/Taurox so your battlesuits could start shooting whatever's inside. The guardian drone would help them survive the counterattack, and if you could park the 'fish in the right spot, it could block LOS for some dudes wanting a shot at your breachers. On paper it looks good, but is it really as good as it sounds?
They are good if you can get them there. Getting them there is expensive, however. That's the real downside to me (that and the 4/- at the longest range. Quite fun, although I'm sticking with carbine warriors.
Breachers require a devilfish in order to do anything. On foot, they wont ever get more than a couple of guys in that 5" range without getting charged first.
I like the idea of the gun, i think its too short though. Either a better range or give them at least competent melee skills (WS3, 2 attacks, still S3 AP-) so they can at least attempt to fend off the inevitable charge.
Vineheart01 wrote: Breachers require a devilfish in order to do anything. On foot, they wont ever get more than a couple of guys in that 5" range without getting charged first.
I like the idea of the gun, i think its too short though. Either a better range or give them at least competent melee skills (WS3, 2 attacks, still S3 AP-) so they can at least attempt to fend off the inevitable charge.
Breachers are good line defense units from reserve or deployed in the case of enemies who can get there fast. I'd use them to defend the Storm Surge from Wraith Guard in Serpents and things like that.
meh either way im not a fan of them. i may proxy a squad of firewarriors eventually but probably not. my squads being color coded makes it easy to tell which is which
Vineheart01 wrote: meh either way im not a fan of them. i may proxy a squad of firewarriors eventually but probably not. my squads being color coded makes it easy to tell which is which
Im not saying to go buy 30 right now. Just explaining how i might use them.
I have a feeling that Breachers might be a sleeper favorite. With the prevalence of MSU marine spam nonsense, they're going to have good targets all over the place. With the run/fire rules, they're reasonably mobile on foot and can exert a reasonable amount of board control since they're pretty powerful within that magic 5" range. If you think about it, they effectively have a 14" threat range - 6" move, 3" run on low average, and 5" shooting. That's obviously not incredible, but if you think of them like dedicated assault troops, that actually sounds pretty decent, right? At the worst, they'll force your opponent to divert some firepower from other things to make sure your Breachers don't get close enough to unload a bunch of S6 AP3 death on his units. I think standard FW are probably a better bet, but I'm more than willing to try Breachers out fairly extensively. At the moment, I plan to run a very aggressive, mostly medium-range list, and they should perform well in that environment.
Vineheart01 wrote: Breachers require a devilfish in order to do anything. On foot, they wont ever get more than a couple of guys in that 5" range without getting charged first.
I like the idea of the gun, i think its too short though. Either a better range or give them at least competent melee skills (WS3, 2 attacks, still S3 AP-) so they can at least attempt to fend off the inevitable charge.
Breachers are good line defense units from reserve or deployed in the case of enemies who can get there fast. I'd use them to defend the Storm Surge from Wraith Guard in Serpents and things like that.
I think in the contingent they are much more effective with the ability to move, run, then shoot.
Two neat things I've figured out with the new book, getting back to Tau tactics:
First, a 5 man Strike unit with a turret is a great way to set up resistant offensive output. Deploy all of the Firewarriors in cover out of line of sight, and deploy the SMS beside them. It can shoot out at your opponent, and your opponent cannot respond without some form of barrage weaponry. That 55 points is a good use of those mandatory troop slots.
Second, if you're like me and you want room for all the new toys and/or like suits, you don't want to be bothered with mandatory tax on junk like fast attack or heavy slots. So kill two birds with one stone and take a small unit of marker drones and a sniper drone unit. Use CF to fire the two units together, allowing the sniper marksmen's drone controller to affect the marker drones, increasing them to BS5 without having to waste a commander to babysit them. Instant reliable markerlights for cheap.
The more I think about it, the less I actually like the Hunter Cadre, not because it isn't awesome, but rather because I like the Retaliation Cadre. Sure, I can play one in the Hunter Cadre, but then I can't access the sweet Skyray, which I really like, and I divert a ton of points from the Hunter Cadre as a whole.
I'm still probably going to run a Hunter Cadre with a Retaliation Cadre as the auxiliary choice, but at least there's some consideration to not just default to the Hunter Cadre, which is nice.
x2 x4stealth with shasvre,fusion markerlight targetlock
in 1850 pts.
I lost, but not because these guys didnt do fething awesome. These guys melted so many skitarii. At he end of turn 7 all i had left was 1 squad of 2 stealth suits my ghostkeel and my mark'o squad.
Due to many tactical errors in play and deployment (riptide ended up fighting 3 dragoons for 5 turns instead of dropping pie plates of doom) I got my ass whipped over all, but ive always loved stealths and would always take a squad or 2 back in the first codex. The keel is cool but im just really happy the suits are actually pretty sweet now with the formation.
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
Turtle? A friend of mine plays a strike team-heavy mobile force that is based ENTIRELY around getting upfield and into rapid fire range as fast as possible.
He rarely uses markerlights, and doesn't even own a riptide. I don't think he's lost a game yet, and he's had the same army list since 6th dropped. If you think that a static gunline is the only way to play Tau, you're wrong and have no idea how to play Tau.
Don't tell this guy he "doesn't know how to play Tau" and then jock ride a list that involves "getting upfield into rapid fire range". That means the entire basis of the list were units that should only be bought when absolutely necessary to make a battle forged army list.
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ZergSmasher wrote: I would think that Ravenwing would be a scary opponent for Tau. Granted, Tau have markerlights which can take away their rerollable jink saves, but they are damn fast and fairly tough, especially those command squads with their FnP. Plus, if they charge from within 6" of a Darkshroud, they are immune to overwatch. Ouch.
Ravenwing are incredibly strong right now. Tau have the least trouble with them though probably of all the armies. The DA players really like to play bad lists for the most part but eventually the RW players will be crushing I think. They even have a gladius of their own
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
Turtle? A friend of mine plays a strike team-heavy mobile force that is based ENTIRELY around getting upfield and into rapid fire range as fast as possible.
He rarely uses markerlights, and doesn't even own a riptide. I don't think he's lost a game yet, and he's had the same army list since 6th dropped. If you think that a static gunline is the only way to play Tau, you're wrong and have no idea how to play Tau.
Don't tell this guy he "doesn't know how to play Tau" and then jock ride a list that involves "getting upfield into rapid fire range". That means the entire basis of the list were units that should only be bought when absolutely necessary to make a battle forged army list.
Yes, and? The point I was making is that there's more than one way to play Tau. You can do a solid gunline, but that isn't even close to the only way they work. But you would know this, since you're Tau jesus.
culsandar wrote:Two neat things I've figured out with the new book, getting back to Tau tactics:
First, a 5 man Strike unit with a turret is a great way to set up resistant offensive output. Deploy all of the Firewarriors in cover out of line of sight, and deploy the SMS beside them. It can shoot out at your opponent, and your opponent cannot respond without some form of barrage weaponry. That 55 points is a good use of those mandatory troop slots.
Second, if you're like me and you want room for all the new toys and/or like suits, you don't want to be bothered with mandatory tax on junk like fast attack or heavy slots. So kill two birds with one stone and take a small unit of marker drones and a sniper drone unit. Use CF to fire the two units together, allowing the sniper marksmen's drone controller to affect the marker drones, increasing them to BS5 without having to waste a commander to babysit them. Instant reliable markerlights for cheap.
Nice ideas. Specially the second one - that alleviates the need for Mark'O!
As I'll use a CAD anyway, I'm thinking about getting just a Piranha for the HCadre 'Fast Attack' Slot and a Droneport in the Fortification slot. Put the Sniper team there and activate the 4 marker droners you can opt for the Droneport to come with. BAM! 4 marker drones at BS5 with combined fire and the stelath team will have 3+ cover!
It encourages you to fight from a distance and shoot your opponent. even if they assault you, now you have a 12" supporting fire. why even bother putting terrain on the table? to benefit Tau? might as well just play on a flat board. It doesn't matter if they have B3 base because for very little you'll be getting units that hit on 3s and 2s.
Space marines got squadroned dreadnoughts? of course the best solution is to give riptides that as well.
40k is going to a bad place in 7th edition. sucks.
don't get me started on STR D missiles and a super heavy that will beat anythings face at only 600 points.
Turtle? A friend of mine plays a strike team-heavy mobile force that is based ENTIRELY around getting upfield and into rapid fire range as fast as possible.
He rarely uses markerlights, and doesn't even own a riptide. I don't think he's lost a game yet, and he's had the same army list since 6th dropped. If you think that a static gunline is the only way to play Tau, you're wrong and have no idea how to play Tau.
Don't tell this guy he "doesn't know how to play Tau" and then jock ride a list that involves "getting upfield into rapid fire range". That means the entire basis of the list were units that should only be bought when absolutely necessary to make a battle forged army list.
Yes, and? The point I was making is that there's more than one way to play Tau. You can do a solid gunline, but that isn't even close to the only way they work. But you would know this, since you're Tau jesus.
Since the drones are not part of the Hunter Contingent, I don't think they'll benefit from Coordinated Firepower.
Drones purchased by any unit are a part of that unit for all rules and purposes.
One of the Auxiliaries you can take if you look to the right of the Core requirements says 1 unit of drones. Its nothing special, but it counts as an Aux formation.
Drones purchased by any unit are a part of that unit for all rules and purposes.
One of the Auxiliaries you can take if you look to the right of the Core requirements says 1 unit of drones. Its nothing special, but it counts as an Aux formation.
I actually quoted the wrong post, Vector Strike mentioned using the Drones from a Drone Port to benefit from Coordinated Firepower.
How are you playing the new combined fire rule? All shooting units as one unit, sharing most abilities. I really want to play it like that, but it sounds very powerful. But using just markerlights for the combined fire rule, would be not that great, compared to other contingent rules.
Grundwels wrote: How are you playing the new combined fire rule? All shooting units as one unit, sharing most abilities. I really want to play it like that, but it sounds very powerful. But using just markerlights for the combined fire rule, would be not that great, compared to other contingent rules.
Sharing rules. I'm at a loss what to do regarding target locks, though. Gonna test both ways
Grundwels wrote: How are you playing the new combined fire rule? All shooting units as one unit, sharing most abilities. I really want to play it like that, but it sounds very powerful. But using just markerlights for the combined fire rule, would be not that great, compared to other contingent rules.
I'm going to pick three or more units, select one target, and shoot with all of the models in those three units as if they were a single unit including all rules. As far as I'm concerned, once you declare those units as combining their fire, those units are treated as a single unit during that shooting. I'm still not fully convenced that Target Lock would allow splitting of fire, due to the wording of combined fire require all models to shoot at one target appears to be more specific.
Grundwels wrote: How are you playing the new combined fire rule? All shooting units as one unit, sharing most abilities. I really want to play it like that, but it sounds very powerful. But using just markerlights for the combined fire rule, would be not that great, compared to other contingent rules.
I'm going to pick three or more units, select one target, and shoot with all of the models in those three units as if they were a single unit including all rules. As far as I'm concerned, once you declare those units as combining their fire, those units are treated as a single unit during that shooting. I'm still not fully convenced that Target Lock would allow splitting of fire, due to the wording of combined fire require all models to shoot at one target appears to be more specific.
SJ
No where in the rule does it use the word "model". It only ever says "unit". The UNITS must shoot at the same target, which they are. One model in that unit is shooting another target thanks to target lock, but that doesn't change the fact that the unit is still shooting at the first target.
Grundwels wrote: How are you playing the new combined fire rule? All shooting units as one unit, sharing most abilities. I really want to play it like that, but it sounds very powerful. But using just markerlights for the combined fire rule, would be not that great, compared to other contingent rules.
I'm going to pick three or more units, select one target, and shoot with all of the models in those three units as if they were a single unit including all rules. As far as I'm concerned, once you declare those units as combining their fire, those units are treated as a single unit during that shooting. I'm still not fully convenced that Target Lock would allow splitting of fire, due to the wording of combined fire require all models to shoot at one target appears to be more specific.
SJ
No where in the rule does it use the word "model". It only ever says "unit". The UNITS must shoot at the same target, which they are. One model in that unit is shooting another target thanks to target lock, but that doesn't change the fact that the unit is still shooting at the first target.
Still not a convincing argument. If one model is not shooting at the same target as the rest, you can't say the unit is shooting at the same target.
Grundwels wrote: How are you playing the new combined fire rule? All shooting units as one unit, sharing most abilities. I really want to play it like that, but it sounds very powerful. But using just markerlights for the combined fire rule, would be not that great, compared to other contingent rules.
I'm going to pick three or more units, select one target, and shoot with all of the models in those three units as if they were a single unit including all rules. As far as I'm concerned, once you declare those units as combining their fire, those units are treated as a single unit during that shooting. I'm still not fully convenced that Target Lock would allow splitting of fire, due to the wording of combined fire require all models to shoot at one target appears to be more specific.
SJ
No where in the rule does it use the word "model". It only ever says "unit". The UNITS must shoot at the same target, which they are. One model in that unit is shooting another target thanks to target lock, but that doesn't change the fact that the unit is still shooting at the first target.
Still not a convincing argument. If one model is not shooting at the same target as the rest, you can't say the unit is shooting at the same target.
SJ
What in the world are you talking about? Even in the last codex target locks were available. I pick unit A to Fire at unit B. One model from unit A fires at unit C using a target lock. Unit A is still firing at unit B even though one model is firing at unit C
I think you may need to reread the rules for shooting and target locks
I'm with notredame. Target lock clearly says a model with it can fire at a different target than his UNIT, not a different target than the models. The main unit will get the benefits of Combined Fire.
If the model firing at a different target gets the benefit as well, I'm on the fence about that.
The way Coordinated Firepower reads to me, I wouldn't let the buffmander's abilities transfer to other squads. Nor would i let DC work across multiple squads. The way it reads to me doesnt give permission to do so. Unless we get a FAQ or ITC ruling that allows it I wont do it.
That being said, i see nothing that states that you wouldnt be able to use target locks. So I will use my TL if I have em the way they've always been.
I would say the models that use their target locks to engage a different target from the rest of the unit do not get the benefits of combined fire. Including any markerlights, special rules, etc. They are not, after all, combining fire with everyone else; they are shooting at a separate target.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would say the models that use their target locks to engage a different target from the rest of the unit do not get the benefits of combined fire. Including any markerlights, special rules, etc. They are not, after all, combining fire with everyone else; they are shooting at a separate target.
Thats how i intend to rule it. People usually overlook this because it rarely means anything but you still have to declare a primary target for the unit for charging purposes, where nonTL models fire, and where shadowsun has to fire one of her shots. To me, the Coordinated Fire only works on the primary target of the unit, and Target Locking models cannot benefit from it (even with other units). Unit-wide rules do spread, but units that are TL'ing to a different unit only benefit from the original unit rules (i.e. buffmander shares between both units Primary Target and his own unit's TargetLocking models, but not the other units' TargetLocking models). Models using TargetLocks cannot benefit from Coord Fire at all, either with their own unit or another unit because they are not firing at a "their units primary target"
it just makes so much more sense and less of a headache to rule it that way to me. not to mention being able to spread buffmander to 2-6 different targets via targetlocks is kinda bs and i'd laugh my ass off it someone seriously thought it was fair to do that and not an oversight.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would say the models that use their target locks to engage a different target from the rest of the unit do not get the benefits of combined fire. Including any markerlights, special rules, etc. They are not, after all, combining fire with everyone else; they are shooting at a separate target.
I honestly not sure why, the only requirement is that the unit must shoot at the target, not all the the models in the unit.
I can understand that for a friendly game against a non-decurion army, because it is decurion powerful. However, for a tournament setting I don't see why you would nerf just because it sounds strong without proper play testing.
So in the new codex, what is the role of crisis suits? with deep striking, relentless broadsides missile pod crisis suits seems a little sub par. Similarly, ghostkneels also give that s7 shots with better BS and hitting rare armor makes them the go too against light vehicles. Between ion riptides and stormsurges we don't need more ap2. So what is the best way to play crisis suits?
I am thinking either fusion blasters to help deal with high armor vehicles or airbursting frag projectos for clearing out light infantry.
I also feel that monats are the way to go to cheaply fulfill our formation requirements and leave room for our bigger suits. The only problem is that buffmanders are so powerful and crisis suits are the best place to put them so making a team of 9 crisis suits sounds very powerful.
lambsandlions wrote: So in the new codex, what is the role of crisis suits? with deep striking, relentless broadsides missile pod crisis suits seems a little sub par. Similarly, ghostkneels also give that s7 shots with better BS and hitting rare armor makes them the go too against light vehicles. Between ion riptides and stormsurges we don't need more ap2. So what is the best way to play crisis suits?
I am thinking either fusion blasters to help deal with high armor vehicles or airbursting frag projectos for clearing out light infantry.
I also feel that monats are the way to go to cheaply fulfill our formation requirements and leave room for our bigger suits. The only problem is that buffmanders are so powerful and crisis suits are the best place to put them so making a team of 9 crisis suits sounds very powerful.
My personal favorite is two 2x Plasma and one 2x Fusion with target lock. We don't have much low AP weapons and I've found that Crisis Suits work best as heavy infantry/vehicle hunters.
Being a Farsight Enclaves Player I really think thanks to the increased squad size that mixed weapons is now the way to go. I plan to run my teams as the following:
-x5 "Fireknife" Crisis Suits
*w/ x1 Missile Pod & x1 Plasma Gun each
Both are kitted out to fill specific roles and at the same time both have a level of flexibility. The Fireknife Crisis Suits will be responsible for dealing with infantry, MC's & Light to Medium Armour. The Missile Pods give them range and strength while a Plasma Guns give them the low AP for dealing with heavy infantry. Also they have a solid rate of fire at 2 shots at 30 inches, 3 shots at 24 inches and 4 shots up to 12 inches.
The SoulforgeD8 Crisis Suits will most likely be Deep Striking (hence the smaller squad size) and will have the primary mission of dealing with Heavy Armour or clearing infantry off of objectives.
Has anyone played the Hunter Contingent according to strict RAW (can share USRs and can splitfire) against a competitive list (and ideally a list from the newer codexes, e.g. Necron Decurion, SM Gladius, Eldar)?
Played marine gladius with it WITH sharing buffs. Want to know the results? 8 destroyed rhinos/razorbacks, one assault unit and half a five man squad died then I was tabled. He got the outflank warlord trait, and wit two lascannon devastator squads wayyy in the back firing with impunity doubling out my suits and broadsides after 2 rounding my ridtide I barely managed to remove 700 points of his 2500ish points. (2k game, he got 500 points in free vehicles).
Really its not over the top. I know unkillable necrons with 12 wraiths or bike heavy eldar the results would be the same. About the only thing it has significantly increased our odds against are things like wolf stars. Screamerstars still murder us.
Orock wrote: Played marine gladius with it WITH sharing buffs. Want to know the results? 8 destroyed rhinos/razorbacks, one assault unit and half a five man squad died then I was tabled. He got the outflank warlord trait, and wit two lascannon devastator squads wayyy in the back firing with impunity doubling out my suits and broadsides after 2 rounding my ridtide I barely managed to remove 700 points of his 2500ish points. (2k game, he got 500 points in free vehicles).
Really its not over the top. I know unkillable necrons with 12 wraiths or bike heavy eldar the results would be the same. About the only thing it has significantly increased our odds against are things like wolf stars. Screamerstars still murder us.
Good to know. The more people test it as it looks like to be (the way you did), the more we'll see results like that.
Hunter Contingent is very powerful against pre-Decurion codexes - just like post-Decurion are. Wanting to nerf Combined Firepower without nerfing Tactical Flexibility, for example, is a pretty harsh move.