Top of 2. Carrie leads Maelstrom 2 to 0. She killed a unit of FW. I wounded 2 riptides myself. Put a HP on her warlord and an arc. 1 wound on Dthirster and 3 wounds on Daemon Prince. Damnit!!!! Heldrake and Scythe come in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well. This will likely be last turn. I made the drake jink. Praise jesus. And did 2 HP to scythe. She killed another unit of FW. Took a wound off of a surge. Now her melee units are on the ground. Uh oh.
Going into T3. Score 4-1 Carrie's Favor. All the D Missiles shot but 1. Did mother fething NOTHING. However I was able to Kill the DThirster and the Daemon Prince, who had the Axe of Ruin and immediately summoned ANOTHER blood thirster.
Top of T4. 6-6. Tau killed a ghost arc, blood thirster, unit of blood letters, unit of deathmarks, and heldrake in T3. Ouch. We were going for kill 3. Giving us a tie. But tau only has 3 units maybe tabled. Called at the bottom of turn 4 for time.
Tau victory, but if continued who knows...
Primary = Tau
Maelstrom = Tie
Bonus
- Tau = Slay + GrndCntrl
- Necrons = 0
Total Score 8 - 2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So. Tau tactics. Riptide Wing plus ripple fire and heels down storm surges EATS monsterous creatures for BREAKFAST. Nom nom nom.
EDIT: Note that I dropped a Ghostkeel for this matchup because he wanted to play 1850.
RHis Grey Knights, replete with a pair of Dreadknights AND a big honking Imperial Knight, plus Inquisitor and a couple Purifier squads in Rhinos showed up. two Shunting Interceptor squads were in the rear, babysitting objectives and preparing to strike.
I let him go first after placing my perfunctory Fortification (a Gunrig) on the left flank. Vanguard deployment and Big guns Never Tire was the mission. Line breaker, Warlord and Ground Control were the tertiaries.
I deployed a Piranha and nothing else. I did not try to seize.
So in turn one he decided, despite ample opportunity, not to shoot my Piranha. he shunted over and ported in to try on the left flank to kill the offending Gunrig that was devoid of any occupants at that point, but cover and Night Fighting protected it. His fear was that he didn't want to trigger my Formation ability to bring in reserves. He failed to get his melstrom objective because he just couldn't get enough going on the Gunrig in turn one.
In my Turn, my Piranha moved and took a maelstrom point.
Turn two rolled around and he again moved and fired his stuff at the Gun Rig. His purifiers were in the center of the board in Rhinos while his DreadKnight on the left near the unit that had dropped in. The second Dreadknight trailed behind the Purifiers midboard, vigilant against enemy activity. The Imperial Knight moved over to join in the barrage to kill the Gunrig. Again, cover saved it. Again he did not kill the Piranha (on purpose).
My entire army minus a 3 man Stealth Squad and some fire warriors came in on turn two, deep striking everywhere. The force laced into his Librarian Warlord and his deep striking buddies near the gun rig, along with outflanking Pathfinders contributing. Stealthsuits used precision shots to kill the Incinerator and help kill the Warlord. The DreadKnight on the left was vaporized by Riptie and Stealthsuit fire as well as a Gunrig shot. The Imperial Knight took four hull Points from the Wall of Mirrors laid down by the Ghostkels who had come in. Seeing danger, they all faded back to avoid being charged. Dreadknight in the middle took a wound. I forget how.
The Purifiers Psychic Shrieked some Stealth suits and sent them running. The rest of the army turned to deal damage to the Riptides and ended up doing 3 Hit points to him. Other elements shifted around and the Dreadknight in the middle shunted to klll fire Warriors in order to accomplish both of its Maelstrom objectives while stopping me from scoring one. A wise choice. Interceptors ventured forward but an incinerator got tangled up in terrain and died.
My Stealthsuits regrouped and the army fired full on, redropping the 3 Stealthsuits that had mishap'd earlier and were now behind the Imperial Knight and killing it. The exploion didnt do anything to anyone though. The second DreadKnight got its face blown off. The Rhino the nearest Purifiers were in got blown up.
The purifiers marched forward and fired at the target right in front of them, the Ghostkeels after killing four more Stealthsuits with Psychic Shriek (that power mowed me) but thanks to the Holophoton Countermeasures, the Ghostkels weathered it. Obviously as the Purifiers had been blown out of their Rhino last turn, they couldn't charge.
My Ghostkeels and Stealthsuits which hadn't been destroyd by Psychic Shrieks (there weren't many left) as well as the Riptides were ready to tear the Inquisitor and his unit to ribbons on my turn.
With essentially the Purifiers in a Rhino and a couple Interceptor Squads left, the jig was up and we ended the game there.
Yes on paper but he eats a lot of points so probably not in practice. I don't know if I would run a command suit at 500 points. But this also depends on restrictions in your campaign. At 500 points my group doesn't allow 2+ saves, invul saves, anything better than AV12 on any side, no more than 2w so it keeps a lot of the shenanigans down.
Col. Dash wrote: Yes on paper but he eats a lot of points so probably not in practice. I don't know if I would run a command suit at 500 points. But this also depends on restrictions in your campaign. At 500 points my group doesn't allow 2+ saves, invul saves, anything better than AV12 on any side, no more than 2w so it keeps a lot of the shenanigans down.
Yeah that would definitely limit a ton.
The setting at the start as we start claiming uncontested tiles, we essentially have a scouting party. No real restrictions, but no formations at this level.
You must not deploy so close to the line! You're Tau for Gawds sake. Lol.
You made me lol! Coffee came out of my nose.
Also, I read your report. Well done on your victory. What special rule did he avoid by not killing the piranha? Also, why no ion rakers on the ghostkeels?
Also, I read your report. Well done on your victory. What special rule did he avoid by not killing the piranha? Also, why no ion rakers on the ghostkeels?
If your referring to Jancoran's report.. the Infiltration Cadre has a special rule that basically is....if any unit in this formation dies, they cry out to the greater good for aid, and all your reserves come in on your turn automatically
So since Jancoran gave his opponent first turn... if his piranha was killed.. all of his reserves would come in on his turn, which would be his turn 1 in this case.
I still need to try this formation at some point..
I did play with Ion Rakers. It just didn't show on the list. thugh I am not leaning towards all Ion Rakers. I am leaning towards haing one, and then two Fuson Colliders.
Jancoran wrote: I did play with Ion Rakers. It just didn't show on the list. thugh I am not leaning towards all Ion Rakers. I am leaning towards haing one, and then two Fuson Colliders.
I'll give you an example. The Ion Raker is effective against both NORMAL infantry and vehicles. Not so much agsainst anything else such as elites with 2+ armor, or normal Monsters. Anything with a 3+ armor starts to degrade its usefulness, but it's still a good weapon even so due to its strength. It has a STR 8 mode which is really nice. So its just got a lot going for it. As an anti-air answer I also like it and that is indeed why I will have one in there for sure.
The Melta thing is really nice for a more definitive kill. The +2 to armor penetration isnt a small thing and its AP 1 gives it the elite killing power.
Ask yourself: Do Tau Empire have enough anti-personelle stuff? Of course. they lack nothing in this regard. so it seems to me that i already CAN kill all I want to kill of the things the Raker kills best (vehicles aside).
As for vehicles, the Raker has to hull them out and the Fusion Collider does not. Moreover it is likely that the Collider will produce a more useful result on the damage table whereas the Collider isnt likely to produce one at all (though it occasionally will of course).
I can make the argument pretty easily for both weapons.
One other thing that is persuading me is that the Tau Empire, if the enemy is having any success to begin with, gives the enemy AMPLE opportunity to bunch up after assaults or when avoiding terrain to get to us. So this produces good opportunities to REALLY hurt the enemy when Armor is made irrelevant.
DreadKnights and Riptides are good examples of the problem for Tau empire. The Imperial Knight I fought last night has a 12 on the rear, so the Rakers had to work hard even with Wall of Mirrors to take it on. i got it done but the plain old Twin linked Meltas actually did a lot of the work there. The unit that eventually killed it was just a three man Stealth Squad that dropped in to say hello with its normal meltagun.
So I cannot tell anyone they are wrong to like the Ion Raker but what i observed in the games so far is that the Fusion Collider would have been a definitive answer to a lot of them. The Ion Raker has superior range which DID matter in my game and I will say that the Deep Strikes i can make with the Ion Raker are safer so in that sense I liked having them in this game.
I think you're probably better off taking fusion or plasma suits or an IA/fusion Riptide if you're trying to deal with armored infantry or vehicles. The ion raker is pretty clearly the superior choice for Ghostkeels, in my opinion. If you're shooting at vehicles, the collider is basically just a regular fusion gun, and with infantry, you're pretty unlikely to hit more than 3 models (probably just 1-2). That's an improvement over the CIR against 2+ but about the same vs 3+. The range differential between the weapons obviously isn't huge but can make a difference. I agree that it's nice to be able to outright blow up a vehicle, but I don't think Ghostkeels are the unit you should choose for that task.
Milkman, there is more here than just the act of killing a vehicle... but that definitely should not be undervalued.
the chassis doesnt die like Crissi teams. thats huge. The defensive ablity of the Ghostkeel is so far beyond the Crisis teams you're recommending that i am not clear why you would recommend them as alternatives.
The value of Firepower is DIRECTLY proportional to how long you have to bring it to bear. Even a crappy weapon can be pure gold when placed on something that never dies. Ask Corbulo in 5th Edition all about it. Dude was insanely useful.
So here we have a world class gun (almost as good as it gets more or less) that can kill anything on a chassis that really only fears melee. Whereas simple missiles will end a Crisis team on the spot, they are lucky to touch the Ghostkeels at all.
The IonRaker obviously benefits fro mthe same comparison. But as far as units carrying them go...
Crisis teams are definitely more fragile than Ghostkeels, point for point, I'll grant you that, for sure. However, they also pour out about 2-3 times as many melta hits. Durability is great, but glass cannons have their place, too.
Riptides, though a bit more expensive, put out more damage and are more durable. Yeah, the IA is not as good against vehicles, but it's significantly more useful against infantry. It's also nice to have a higher chance of scattering into things if you miss your target.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ghostkeels are amazing. They may well be my favorite unit. I just prefer to get my low AP action elsewhere due to small blasts sort of sucking, in general. You can do better than 2-3 fusion guns at the 150 point range in our book.
Understood and as I've said a couple times now, i can easily make the case for either weapon and as i have said, there will be an Ion Raker in the unit. But symetry isn't that important to me. When you look at my list, you can plainly see that I don't have Crisis Teams and I DO have anti-personell covered. two Riptides is plenty. So i mean your suggestion only makes sense if a want a Crisis suit more than a Ghostkeel...and I don't. Too much good stuff going on with them.
Looking at your list, you do, indeed, have anti-personnel covered. You're also a Riptide away from being able to split them off into a Riptide Wing, so given my above statement, that's certainly something to consider. Two Riptides may be enough, but 3 Riptides that can shoot twice during one turn and reroll nova reactors is excellent. That's probably worth swapping out one of your fusion Ghostkeels and a stealth suit or two, in my opinion, even though it costs you Fire Team in your OSC.
Had a rematch. He altered his list. Added a bunch more Psychic Shriek throwers from henchmen in rhinos instead of his interceptors. He had a couple objective grabbing strike squads, two sreads, two dreadknights and tried the force weapon shooting gun to take out my riptides with. So very much more tailored to kill me.
THIS time it was Hammer and Anvil, The Scouring. I opted to go second again. I deployed my (now) more fearsome Piranha near his objective 3 and in range of all three. I placed the perfunctory gunrig way back and to the center. Time to go.
He swooshed forwad in rhinos to take objectives. He had to kill two units. His Dreadknight shunted to kill the Gunrig(one of his objectives). His Dreadnought tried to kill the piranha (for another) but managed to blow only a seeker missile off of it. On my turn I immobikized his Rhino w the piranha.
Turn two his strike squad jumped in to help with killing the Gunrig. They got it done. Pirahna also died.
My entire army showed up on the left flank save for Fire Warriors which took residence in the Gunrig while the others pushed towards his objective three where once my Piranha had been. I killed the rhino and henchman on objective 2 midboard, his Dreadknight, his offending Strike Squad and waited for his retibution.
Turn 3 the Dreadknight tried to kill the Riptide with Force shots, but failed despite hitting well due to prescience. The dreads fired on me as well. The psykers tried to gate in on me but I bounced their power. The rest moved up at maximum speed and prepared.
On my turn i blew up the dreadknight, his midfield rhinos and the guys inside of both. At this stage at end of round 3 he had his psyker unit, a rhino on my objective three, dread and command group on one and his psychic shrieks were going to be minimally effective given JSJ. Seeing that his next round would be little more than moving at maximum speed into a meat grinder, he conceded. There simply was no Grey Knight victory today.
My observations here is that the plan was very scary to me and he had the opportunity to consume the middle of the board in rounds one and 2. His lack of surety as to where I might end up was a critical thing. I felt that dominating the center and launching from there would have allowed the grey knights to better handle me. Most games I have played AS a Grey Knight have had, first and foremost, the goal of massing power midfield and unleashing it like the Wave Motion Gun from Star Blazers.
Anywho, we talked afterwards and he may have a bit meaner list yet in store for our next encounter.
Had a rematch. He altered his list. Added a bunch more Psychic Shriek throwers from henchmen in rhinos instead of his interceptors. He had a couple objective grabbing strike squads, two sreads, two dreadknights and tried the force weapon shooting gun to take out my riptides with. So very much more tailored to kill me.
THIS time it was Hammer and Anvil, The Scouring. I opted to go second again. I deployed my (now) more fearsome Piranha near his objective 3 and in range of all three. I placed the perfunctory gunrig way back and to the center. Time to go.
He swooshed forwad in rhinos to take objectives. He had to kill two units. His Dreadknight shunted to kill the Gunrig(one of his objectives). His Dreadnought tried to kill the piranha (for another) but managed to blow only a seeker missile off of it. On my turn I immobikized his Rhino w the piranha.
Turn two his strike squad jumped in to help with killing the Gunrig. They got it done. Pirahna also died.
My entire army showed up on the left flank save for Fire Warriors which took residence in the Gunrig while the others pushed towards his objective three where once my Piranha had been. I killed the rhino and henchman on objective 2 midboard, his Dreadknight, his offending Strike Squad and waited for his retibution.
Turn 3 the Dreadknight tried to kill the Riptide with Force shots, but failed despite hitting well due to prescience. The dreads fired on me as well. The psykers tried to gate in on me but I bounced their power. The rest moved up at maximum speed and prepared.
On my turn i blew up the dreadknight, his midfield rhinos and the guys inside of both. At this stage at end of round 3 he had his psyker unit, a rhino on my objective three, dread and command group on one and his psychic shrieks were going to be minimally effective given JSJ. Seeing that his next round would be little more than moving at maximum speed into a meat grinder, he conceded. There simply was no Grey Knight victory today.
My observations here is that the plan was very scary to me and he had the opportunity to consume the middle of the board in rounds one and 2. His lack of surety as to where I might end up was a critical thing. I felt that dominating the center and launching from there would have allowed the grey knights to better handle me. Most games I have played AS a Grey Knight have had, first and foremost, the goal of massing power midfield and unleashing it like the Wave Motion Gun from Star Blazers.
Anywho, we talked afterwards and he may have a bit meaner list yet in store for our next encounter.
hmm yeah psilencers are just bad... cool weapon though. hoping for you to roll a 1 on your 2+ armor save and fail FNP (if you have it) is just a huge gamble.
He is better off running demon hammer + torrent flamer and putting himself in a position to charge you turn 2.
Hey Tau players, looking to join your ranks soon, just finishing off my army. Just wondering, how do you guys feel you fare against Tyranids at the moment? And I mean against non Flyer spam nids (2x Flyrant + ground force Nids)?
There is no FnP vs ID. If the Riptide rolls a 1 on it's 2+ save versus an active Psilencer, the Riptide is removed from the game. Tau Riptide spam is the only reason why the GK meta has shifted to Psilencers, a weapon generally held as terrible at best that can instant death MCs on a failed armor save.
jeffersonian000 wrote: There is no FnP vs ID. If the Riptide rolls a 1 on it's 2+ save versus an active Psilencer, the Riptide is removed from the game. Tau Riptide spam is the only reason why the GK meta has shifted to Psilencers, a weapon generally held as terrible at best that can instant death MCs on a failed armor save.
SJ
Yeah totally a "DOH!" moment there for me.
Even still... that is a lot to bank on where I think your better off preparing to go into combat.
12 * (2/3) * (1/6) * (1/6) => 0.2
That is a pretty small chance to gamble on.. because when you lose that gamble.. your nem dread is dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Hey Tau players, looking to join your ranks soon, just finishing off my army. Just wondering, how do you guys feel you fare against Tyranids at the moment? And I mean against non Flyer spam nids (2x Flyrant + ground force Nids)?
Nids are not an issue.. everything we have can take skyfire upgrades.. Flyrant spam is welcomed because all our MCs are 2+ armor anyway or 2+ shrouded. Dakka Nids Can't out dakka Tau.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey Tau players, looking to join your ranks soon, just finishing off my army. Just wondering, how do you guys feel you fare against Tyranids at the moment? And I mean against non Flyer spam nids (2x Flyrant + ground force Nids)?
We fare incredibly well against ground-tyranids. We specialize at killing infantry and the droves and we will make those monstrous creatures fail their saves. We have a plethora of str 6 and str 7 shooting (and str 5 ap 5 that ignore cover and line of sight for the troops). And if you do plan on playing against flyrants, a heavy burst cannon riptide with velocity tracker (skyfire) will drop them out of the sky.
Another thing to consider with Psilencers is that GK have pretty easy access to misfortune. If they manage to get it off Riptides get real sad, real fast.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey Tau players, looking to join your ranks soon, just finishing off my army. Just wondering, how do you guys feel you fare against Tyranids at the moment? And I mean against non Flyer spam nids (2x Flyrant + ground force Nids)?
Nids are not an issue.. everything we have can take skyfire upgrades.. Flyrant spam is welcomed because all our MCs are 2+ armor anyway or 2+ shrouded. Dakka Nids Can't out dakka Tau.
I'm saying, specifically not Flying Nids, only 2 Flyrants
Misfortune + Prescience + Psilencer? Nice. Yeah and he could easily have rolled it. He has a lot of rolls. His Shrieks were devastating in our fuirst matchup and he brought MORe to the party this time. So he came to kill those Riptides for sure. But the Shunt had one problem in our game referenced above: I had a sea of Tau soldiers he couldnt shunt on top of (on purpose) so his chances of shunting into charge range were next to nil. He took his shot and it didn't pay off for him.
Ironically all the Ghostkeels ever got to fire was their two Fusion Blasters once for obvious reasons. My Pathfinders did WORK with their Carbines though.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey Tau players, looking to join your ranks soon, just finishing off my army. Just wondering, how do you guys feel you fare against Tyranids at the moment? And I mean against non Flyer spam nids (2x Flyrant + ground force Nids)?
We fare incredibly well against ground-tyranids. We specialize at killing infantry and the droves and we will make those monstrous creatures fail their saves. We have a plethora of str 6 and str 7 shooting (and str 5 ap 5 that ignore cover and line of sight for the troops). And if you do plan on playing against flyrants, a heavy burst cannon riptide with velocity tracker (skyfire) will drop them out of the sky.
Thank you (I haven't been around much for the last year or so and haven't updated myself with the new Tau that much, and I don't own a 6th copy of the dex to make comparisons of whats changed).
Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)
Thanks for taking the time out to respond! I'd appreciate responses from anyone reading this post who has an opinion on it, thank you genuinely trying to up my knowledge here
Well a riptide can drop a flying HT so simply it's not even funny add in all the ignores cover and high strength we wipe up most nits so fast. Storm surges are not something I use but one on paper looks to make nids cry with all that firepower.
Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)
So two things. Nids at the moment are rather weak. Tau don't really need the biggest baddest list to hold their own against them. Nids main defense is cover, and Tau can remove that with markerlights. After that, Nids rely either on high toughness or mass wounds. Well again here, base s5 and mainly s6 and s7 weapons, Tau again do not really care about T6 MCs, especially those with 4+ armor (Ghostkeel love those). With mass wounds, Tau have a ton of dakka, with multipliers ala fireblade and ethereal.
If your worried about Nids, don't be
Secondly, in the broader meta, bringing a riptide wing and stormsurge is far from weak. Riptide wing is nasty. Has 0 tax, and makes an already good model, absolutely obnoxious.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
raverrn wrote: Another thing to consider with Psilencers is that GK have pretty easy access to misfortune. If they manage to get it off Riptides get real sad, real fast.
Even still, psilencers are not what to fear in his list. Psychic Shreik sure.
If you know he has misfortune, and prescience and he is going first... then stick your riptide in a ruin and call it a day. If he is putting force on his Nem Dread, then he is not throwing up Sanctuary and I would say that is better for you, even if he gets lucky and takes out your riptide.
Sure, I get it, its a threat, ID is scary, but what are riptides mainly for? taking the aggro of all the scary in the other guys list.
Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)
So two things. Nids at the moment are rather weak. Tau don't really need the biggest baddest list to hold their own against them. Nids main defense is cover, and Tau can remove that with markerlights. After that, Nids rely either on high toughness or mass wounds. Well again here, base s5 and mainly s6 and s7 weapons, Tau again do not really care about T6 MCs, especially those with 4+ armor (Ghostkeel love those). With mass wounds, Tau have a ton of dakka, with multipliers ala fireblade and ethereal.
If your worried about Nids, don't be
Secondly, in the broader meta, bringing a riptide wing and stormsurge is far from weak. Riptide wing is nasty. Has 0 tax, and makes an already good model, absolutely obnoxious.
I'm a Nid player myself, I just have been away from the game for a while and trying to get a feel for where Tau is at with the new dex. Specifically, compared to my general list. I'm picking up a Riptide spammy army myself so I'm not worried about this match up, I am however wondering if that is necessary to beat them, so thanks for your answers!
Also, I meant an army WITHOUT stormsurges, in the broader meta might be worse, but just wondering if one of these style lists like Tau would have been running a year ago, could still whomp on Nids. It's no secret Nids lost to Tau's last dex, and it looks to me on initial impressions of the new dex, none of the reasons why Tau won this has been removed, so my impression would be that Tau could still run a list from last years meta and still be able to toast Nids, that was my assertion however I wanted to get some back-up opinions.
The main thing thats changed with my Nids between then and now is the fact that I'm now running a Void Shield Generator, to protect my stuff a little more heavily as it moves up the board, how heavily does this impact Tau? A non cover based defense might just be enough to get my Nids up in your grills before you can mow them all down right, and also protects against early markers and keeps my two Flyrants alive to get airborne in my first turn if I happen to go second?
Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)
So two things. Nids at the moment are rather weak. Tau don't really need the biggest baddest list to hold their own against them. Nids main defense is cover, and Tau can remove that with markerlights. After that, Nids rely either on high toughness or mass wounds. Well again here, base s5 and mainly s6 and s7 weapons, Tau again do not really care about T6 MCs, especially those with 4+ armor (Ghostkeel love those). With mass wounds, Tau have a ton of dakka, with multipliers ala fireblade and ethereal.
If your worried about Nids, don't be
Secondly, in the broader meta, bringing a riptide wing and stormsurge is far from weak. Riptide wing is nasty. Has 0 tax, and makes an already good model, absolutely obnoxious.
I'm a Nid player myself, I just have been away from the game for a while and trying to get a feel for where Tau is at with the new dex. Specifically, compared to my general list. I'm picking up a Riptide spammy army myself so I'm not worried about this match up, I am however wondering if that is necessary to beat them, so thanks for your answers!
Also, I meant an army WITHOUT stormsurges, in the broader meta might be worse, but just wondering if one of these style lists like Tau would have been running a year ago, could still whomp on Nids. It's no secret Nids lost to Tau's last dex, and it looks to me on initial impressions of the new dex, none of the reasons why Tau won this has been removed, so my impression would be that Tau could still run a list from last years meta and still be able to toast Nids, that was my assertion however I wanted to get some back-up opinions.
The main thing thats changed with my Nids between then and now is the fact that I'm now running a Void Shield Generator, to protect my stuff a little more heavily as it moves up the board, how heavily does this impact Tau? A non cover based defense might just be enough to get my Nids up in your grills before you can mow them all down right, and also protects against early markers and keeps my two Flyrants alive to get airborne in my first turn if I happen to go second?
Gotcha! My mistake for misreading
So I only recently started using stormsurges, and they are amazing. Makes its points back in every game, and through 7 games has not even taken a wound yet (i know insane). Take away riptides, take away stormsurges. What do Tau have left? Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Ghostkeel, Firewarriors... all really good units. All put out a ton of dakka. We have other formations too, OSC for example, trio ghostkeel shooting at Bs5 with ignores cover... pretty much the anti Nid unit if I ever saw one haha.
Void shields are being used alot now in the competitive scene, but the issue is how stationary they are. and with your army being rather large (horde) there is only so much that you can pack in around for that 12" bubble. And i would add if your doing that.. Tau have enough RoF to probably pen that shield, and then you have all these bunched up units asking for pie plates. It is a gamble in my opinion. I would suggest investing in more venomthrope to ensure that everything is shrouded, forcing the Tau player to use markerlights to ignore cover, rather then upping his BS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the last bit, the void shield would protect against markerlights.. but i think you are still better off putting your flyrants out of LOS. but that terrain benefit comes to what your local group likes to play.
Don't be afraid to play nids of any sort against Tau. I played a small game against a nid player, 1 Swarmlord against 1 riptide with IA, SMS, Stims, & ECPA (to get the points up, even if it was illegal). By turn 3 the swarmlord had only taken 2 wounds but had killed my riptide when it caught up to it. . . lousy thrust rolls. . .
To be fair, the ITC have targetted Tau more than any other army quite recently. Still seems a little silly to bring an argument and lose an opponent like this though. Tau was always going to be an uphill battle against Tyranids, a lot of high strength shooting practically forces saves on the big ones and flat out kills the smaller ones.
But on topic, what does every use as load outs for Riptide wing? I've got a 1500 point list that includes it (as well as Drone Net and unnerfed Pirahna Firestream) and only have points for 2x HBC, FB, EWO, VT and 1x IA, SMS, EWO, FnP.
Frozocrone wrote: To be fair, the ITC have targetted Tau more than any other army quite recently. Still seems a little silly to bring an argument and lose an opponent like this though.
I am thankful for the games I got. It was, in the end, all worth it, and a wonderful introduction to a very addictive franchise I will never forget I got a bit miffed by the ITC stuff I guess. But even I can see how in the end, they were solving a problem, rather than creating one for me. I'm not forced to pick hunter contingent, or buffmanders.
There's other things I could have done, like my latest list on tautactica: CAD with a gigantic XV8 unit with Shadowsun and a buff'vre, Drone Net VX1 formation for markers, and a riptide wing with 1, 2, and 3 models riptide units staggering fire for extra BS.
Frozocrone wrote: To be fair, the ITC have targetted Tau more than any other army quite recently. Still seems a little silly to bring an argument and lose an opponent like this though. Tau was always going to be an uphill battle against Tyranids, a lot of high strength shooting practically forces saves on the big ones and flat out kills the smaller ones.
But on topic, what does every use as load outs for Riptide wing? I've got a 1500 point list that includes it (as well as Drone Net and unnerfed Pirahna Firestream) and only have points for 2x HBC, FB, EWO, VT and 1x IA, SMS, EWO, FnP.
I use HBCannon, SMS, Counterfire, and Interceptor on mine.
Little toss out, Frankie from Frontline actually just reviewed my list! While I am not particularly in agreement on some of the changes he suggests, I am happy to have had the oppurtunity for them to check it out!
Frozocrone wrote: But on topic, what does every use as load outs for Riptide wing? I've got a 1500 point list that includes it (as well as Drone Net and unnerfed Pirahna Firestream) and only have points for 2x HBC, FB, EWO, VT and 1x IA, SMS, EWO, FnP.
I am also curious what other people are finding the best loadout locally.
Personally, it depends on the rest of my list. When I run my version of the Double Surge/Riptide Wing netlist, I prefer Blastcannons on the Stormsurges and at least two Ion Accelerators in the Wing. This has kind of turned me around on the Accelerator, which I know is good, but had such miserable luck with (and I mean AWFUL), I avoided like the plague. Now that the ECPA is gone, and we have so many new toys and rules, I had to reassess.
When I run the Wing with any other list, I have a hard time doing anything but all HBC. I loved the Pilot Array Burstide, and this is almost like having 3! The only trick is getting all three in position to Hailfire effectively with the shorter range. That's not a big problem with 36" to play with, but often I find my opponents will move to give one Riptide little or nothing to shoot at without moving. The SMS really helps to mitigate this problem with Ripple Fire.
As far as secondary systems go, I rarely run much more than EWO. If I have the points, I take Advanced Targeting on HBC/SMS suits, due to the occasional crime of opportunity they can commit, and it's cheap. The Stims are good, but usually to costly for my taste. I have tried it both ways, and usually the the points work more effectively (for me) when I invest them in Markerlights.
The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.
First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.
So being obligated to what will likely be a 200 point modl to get a few extra shots once per game may be getting a little star struck over nothing.
What could you purchase for 200 points? Quite a bit.
I personally have yet to use a Riptide wing because it squeezes the list pretty hard. If its a chaoice between a third Riptide and being able to afford the StormSurge? Stormsurge wins that for me.
If I dont take the third Riptide I can get an entire unit of really heavily armed Crisis suits. I can get a Buffmander. or I can increase the usefulness fo the TWO Riptides immensely with markerlight support.
Not saying that the Riptide Wing is bad. its VERY good. But it comes at a cost and I have been unwlling to pay the cost , especially when the range of their Burst cannons is what it is. . Either you end up just getting Smart Missile shots out of the deal or someone is suiciding to soak the shots early so they dont have to deal with it later on more important things as happened to me at my next t last tournament.
I love the Riptide Wing but i really hate what a lazy brand of 40K it encourages. You should have seen the grumbling one of my...associates... was doing after losing. he acted like losing was not possible because: Riptide Wing. his whole attitude was what I didn't like. It was as if it offended him that he could be beaten after taking something the internet SAID would work. Lol.
I am going down other roads. The codex is so fun and so rich in interesting things to try that I think it will be some time before I play the actual Riptide Wing. I own the third model but its still unpainted and partially unassembled because it just never seems necessary to have three I guess.
Jancoran wrote: The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.
First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.
So being obligated to what will likely be a 200 point modl to get a few extra shots once per game may be getting a little star struck over nothing.
What could you purchase for 200 points? Quite a bit.
I personally have yet to use a Riptide wing because it squeezes the list pretty hard. If its a chaoice between a third Riptide and being able to afford the StormSurge? Stormsurge wins that for me.
If I dont take the third Riptide I can get an entire unit of really heavily armed Crisis suits. I can get a Buffmander. or I can increase the usefulness fo the TWO Riptides immensely with markerlight support.
Not saying that the Riptide Wing is bad. its VERY good. But it comes at a cost and I have been unwlling to pay the cost , especially when the range of their Burst cannons is what it is. . Either you end up just getting Smart Missile shots out of the deal or someone is suiciding to soak the shots early so they dont have to deal with it later on more important things as happened to me at my next t last tournament.
I love the Riptide Wing but i really hate what a lazy brand of 40K it encourages. You should have seen the grumbling one of my...associates... was doing after losing. he acted like losing was not possible because: Riptide Wing. his whole attitude was what I didn't like. It was as if it offended him that he could be beaten after taking something the internet SAID would work. Lol.
I am going down other roads. The codex is so fun and so rich in interesting things to try that I think it will be some time before I play the actual Riptide Wing. I own the third model but its still unpainted and partially unassembled because it just never seems necessary to have three I guess.
We'll said. The tide wing is strong, but not because it allows for solid tactics, it's strong because it mitigates the cost of tactical mistakes. It's a grind game that will be less prominent or optimized into dawnblade contingents (imho) once we see the coordinated firepower rule play out in a couple of the more popular tourneys testing it.
I'd personally use at least one riptide first in a contingent firebase cad for a second tank/monster hunter shooty tau star along side your buffmanders' coordinated fire team.
I use two riptides, because it is a virtual certainty that I need lures for my strategy to work. I need a high output, high durability unit in each corner. Nothing fits the bill and forces the action better
I don't own one, heresy, I know. But I like my crisis suits, Ghostkeels and skyrays that much!
I'm currently running two scary units, an optimised stealth cadre with 3 Ghostkeels and a large crisis suit unit with buffmander. So I like to spend the remaining points on support units, for scoring and markerlights etc.
Bryan01 wrote: I don't own one, heresy, I know. But I like my crisis suits, Ghostkeels and skyrays that much!
I'm currently running two scary units, an optimised stealth cadre with 3 Ghostkeels and a large crisis suit unit with buffmander. So I like to spend the remaining points on support units, for scoring and markerlights etc.
Jancoran wrote: The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.
First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.
You are looking at it wrong, sure Hailfire is just a buff that last one round, it that buff is basically gives 3x Riptides a turn of shooting FOR FREE if you use it wisely, no extra points cost. This synergises very well with re-roll of Nova's, and the situational but still practical buff you didn't mention, of +1 BS for firing on successive targets, and both of these buffs are there all game. And I really wouldn't undersestimate re-rolling Nova's its not just nice to have, the reliable consistency of being able to get the Nova for whatever it is you are looking for, is really strong. A Stormsurge is nice, but nothing is more cost effective than that 3rd Riptide when you factor in the buffs it immediately grants to the other 2 and itself... and you can do both anyway, so the real sacrifice doesn't even have to be the Stormsurge, it's whatever you other stuff you are taking in general.
Grizzyzz wrote: I also run ghost wing.. so when i fire at basic ifantry I am charging them to finish them off with ap2 melee!
One minor benefit I have been able to make use of in the Ghost Wing, which sounds esoteric, but comes up more often than I would expect: many players forget about the drones. Specifically, in ITC rules a single model cannot multi-assault, often players do not realize the Ghostkeel can. With proper positioning, I can shoot one enemy squad and charge them and an adjacent unit, finishing off the primary target and tying up a secondary. This has been most useful against Skyhammer and Gladius. Skyhammer Devs that Combat Squad are often perfectly setup for this, and tying up the Suppressing Fusillade is critical. Gladius can often be subject to the same trick, both assaulting a unit and their ObSec transport. Taking out the vehicle and finishing off the unit you shot, either this turn or next. This can also be helpful for "pulling" the unit off of an objective with their consolidation move. Again, not an every game possibility, but Assault options like these were rarely ever an option to me before the Ghostkeel. I would never have gambled a Riptide on moves like these (for fear of getting tied up and losing a round of firepower), but the Ghostkeel's lower cost and harassing nature in the Ghostkeel Wing (and still giving off the Stealth Field from Assault) make it more viable (and tons of fun).
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, how has everyone been faring against the new Psychic powers? I've had two games against a good Space Wolves (Wolfen+Thunderbus)/Skyhammer/Conclave player, one win one loss. The win really happened with some luck. I took first turn, and 6ed 2 Stomps. The loss was bad, but not much was left on either side. Both games he drew Electrodisplacement, and the mobility was crazy. Null Zone hurt my Stormsurge badly but that wasn't unpredictable or too much to handle. Each of these powers had to play around my Culexus, and that was fine.
Shifting Worldscape, while not a factor in my games, has me worried. Being neither a Blessing or a Malediction the Culexus does not effect it at all. The only saving grace is that the Assassin still kills any Blessing the arriving unit has, once they land. The other powers are bad, but again the Culexus can shut those down (Veil of Time and Phase Form specifically). I've watched Shifting Worldscape be used to surf the table on a forest and out maneuver the Eldar handedly. That was a match with a sub-optimized SW list and a crafty and locally dominant Eldar player.
As far as the rest goes, I'm moving to a double Culexus setup, just to improve coverage of anti-psychic nonsense. This limits the rest of my list (we use ITC house-rules for casual play in my FLGS so only 3 Detachments) to one Detachment or Combi-Detachment. I've had little playtesting of the Hunter Contingent, but the Dawnblade seems nice.
What are your experiences and how are you planning to adapt to the new Psychic powers?
Jancoran wrote: The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.
First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.
You are looking at it wrong, sure Hailfire is just a buff that last one round, it that buff is basically gives 3x Riptides a turn of shooting FOR FREE if you use it wisely, no extra points cost. This synergises very well with re-roll of Nova's, and the situational but still practical buff you didn't mention, of +1 BS for firing on successive targets, and both of these buffs are there all game. And I really wouldn't undersestimate re-rolling Nova's its not just nice to have, the reliable consistency of being able to get the Nova for whatever it is you are looking for, is really strong. A Stormsurge is nice, but nothing is more cost effective than that 3rd Riptide when you factor in the buffs it immediately grants to the other 2 and itself... and you can do both anyway, so the real sacrifice doesn't even have to be the Stormsurge, it's whatever you other stuff you are taking in general.
I think it obvious that the Riptide Wing is better than just three Riptides. Duh. But what I said was that it obligates you to a third Riptide. 200 points buys you a lot of firepower elsewhere and Riptides, especially the shorter range ones that are beloved in this formation for good reason,, are just that: shorter range.
Look at it from another angle. A Gunfort is 255. A full grown man StromSurge is 440. An effective Crisis star easily reaches 200-300 and a couple Ghostkeels 240. As much as i love Riptides, those are all units that ca do various things that are pretty darn effective and would allow me more ways to play.
if I lockup another 200 points on anothr Riptide, those are all units i might not be ableto take. Now for my style of play, I want those things. The Riptide Wing isn't worth more to be than having those alrternatives and the points just cant be there forthem if i take the third one.
So i have become unconvinced that a Riptide Wing, as EXCELLENT as it is (and it is) is going to make enough difference to me that i want to obligate myself to the points.
Lmao table 1 in the final game(rd 5) of De La Warr GT seems to be a Duo Piranha wing army vs SM
From the pic it seems to contain 10 piranha and crap load of drones. 4 Riptides(3 with SMS and Gatling, the other one could be a ION w SMS) and some crisis suits, probably a riptide wing with a CAD.
In one pic, basically the riptides were camping in the corner of the table and bubble wrapped with a bunch of drones.
Good thing ITC nerfed the piranha wing, NOVA needs to do the same, frikin ridiculous
what is an 'effective' crisis star? I will admit to a love affair of Missile Pods & Target Locks in a Marker Drone Infested squad led by a mark'o, but what is meant by it in your lights, Jancoran?
carldooley wrote: what is an 'effective' crisis star? I will admit to a love affair of Missile Pods & Target Locks in a Marker Drone Infested squad led by a mark'o, but what is meant by it in your lights, Jancoran?
The Crisis Star is really 400+ points. I typed a wrong number above.
The version I prefer is not generally concerned with range, since it generally deep strikes in. So I (personally) prefer the mixed 3 x 18" dual Fusion plus 3 x 24" dual Plasma bodyguards, plus a Command and Control Bodyguard (with a Flamer and TL Flamers mainly for defense if needed). The unit can essentially kill anything short of a super heavy on the drop, and maybe even one of those. The Multispectral Sensor Suite goes a long way towards nixing the annoying cover saves of Jetbikes and you get twin linking on all of it because of the defensive command and control Bodyguard. that unit is about 476.
It can be more with Drones, to taste. I know some people like the added fire of Gun drones, but that depends a LOT on what the rest of the army is best equipped to handle so i leave that part kind of up for discretion.
The 3 STR 5 attacks each that the Bodyguard gets is kind of cool as well, though one hopes that never comes up. Still 28 attacks on the charge is hardly a crappy effort if they can keep their numbers up.
You can add to this unit the effects of Shadowsun if you want, since you gotta have an HQ anyways. That's a choice you can make. The Ghost Keel wing alongside it is another option.
You can't really afford all this if you're commiting to a third Riptide, not easily. So it's just an example of what you might need those points for instead of spending them on a third Riptide that really may not get you enough production comparatively.
I am not the largest user of this particular unit. I think Ive done it all of thrice, but I've seen it done a lot. Its surprisingly or not so surprisingly effective.Beats face and then the idea is that your defenses and the untimely demise of the most present danger to it can kind of protect it somewhat. If that proposition makes you skittish a few Shield drones or an Irridium upgrade wouldn't hurt.
Short range? The heavy burst is 36" that is plenty of range to hit basically anything that you want. If you play vanguard or dawn of war deployment, you can essentially position yourself to hit about everything on the board. I have yet to have any issue with my riptide wing even hail firing on turn 1 effectively. It is not the 72" (or 60" ?) of the Ion Accelerator, but if your shooting that far, your secondary is near worthless anyway as well.
Additionally, the problem comes with the current meta and cost. More than half of the game is survival now. Especially at tournaments, and the riptide is one of the best survivors in our codex. I can bring a 8 man squad of firewarriors and devilfish, or a tricked out pathfinder crew for out flanking. or a 4 man crisis squad with double plasmas, and while they each have their place, none of them can withstand the same punishment as a riptide for equal cost. You said it yourself earlier, its not always about the one turn firepower, its about the firepower you can put out throughout the 5 turns. And nothing in our codex short of ghostkeel and the stormsurge is able to do that, and on top of that, be versatile enough to make last minute strides to objectives or suddenly change roles (via nova charge). Riptide was made too good in my opinion. (complete seperate topic, but is one of the core issues with the tau codex, that I think needs changed).
Okay I bought a ghostkeel to possibly create interest in building a 7th edition Tau army. What is the best load out as far as primary gun, secondary gun and support systems with a take all comers blind build approach?
Right now I've built the parts to do a fusion collider and TW Fusiom Blasters but can't decide what sort of support systems the ghostkeel would get any use out of.
Also is the plasma rifle and missile pod crisis suit setup still good or are there better generalist setups now?
One more question...well two more. If I use the Farsight Enclaves I still can build a combined arms Tau army that has ghostkeels and stormsurges and as Farsight puts Crisis in Troops and not Elites can you take Crisis in the Troop slot of a Farsight Hunter Contingent?
Grizzyzz wrote: Short range? The heavy burst is 36" that is plenty of range to hit basically anything that you want. If you play vanguard or dawn of war deployment, you can essentially position yourself to hit about everything on the board. I have yet to have any issue with my riptide wing even hail firing on turn 1 effectively. It is not the 72" (or 60" ?) of the Ion Accelerator, but if your shooting that far, your secondary is near worthless anyway as well.
Additionally, the problem comes with the current meta and cost. More than half of the game is survival now. Especially at tournaments, and the riptide is one of the best survivors in our codex. I can bring a 8 man squad of firewarriors and devilfish, or a tricked out pathfinder crew for out flanking. or a 4 man crisis squad with double plasmas, and while they each have their place, none of them can withstand the same punishment as a riptide for equal cost. You said it yourself earlier, its not always about the one turn firepower, its about the firepower you can put out throughout the 5 turns. And nothing in our codex short of ghostkeel and the stormsurge is able to do that, and on top of that, be versatile enough to make last minute strides to objectives or suddenly change roles (via nova charge). Riptide was made too good in my opinion. (complete seperate topic, but is one of the core issues with the tau codex, that I think needs changed).
Survival is a thing. I agree. Another thing that is a thing is acceptable losses and saturation. also still a thing. D Weapons? Also a thing.
I have pretty clearly acknowledged several times that the Riptide Wing is good. So i dont THINK we're even arguing that point here. I don't need to be told why its good when I already said it was. Lol.
I'm just telling you that there are other options I prefer more. And now i see people jetting around with four of the things. Its interesting.
The counter is fast melee....as it ever is with the Tau Empire. You gotta take your round of lumps going in and then make hay. The formula is unchanged and so my personal style is to take some of that away from the enemy as an option. I do that by varying my attack and having better answers to more things by being positionally dominant instead of GREAT answers to a few things and being a sitting target.
Dark eldar kind of illustrate my point. Riptide Wings can go down in an awful hurry to them and they really arent a "power Codex" but they do provide a somewhat perfect counter. Speed, melee you can protect on the way in, and lots of Instant Death attacks. The sheer volume of dice allows for a fair chance at it. Even if they lose every round of combat to a Riptide (unlikely), its going nowhere the rest of the game and firing at no one, its super ripple fire potentially wasted on the hull of a Raider or Tantalus if it got it off at all.
Just an example of the type of army i would want to have a slightly different option when facing than just spamming Riptides. Again understanding that spamming Riptides is a very strong play. i have agreed already.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrotherGecko wrote: Okay I bought a ghostkeel to possibly create interest in building a 7th edition Tau army. What is the best load out as far as primary gun, secondary gun and support systems with a take all comers blind build approach?
Right now I've built the parts to do a fusion collider and TW Fusiom Blasters but can't decide what sort of support systems the ghostkeel would get any use out of.
Also is the plasma rifle and missile pod crisis suit setup still good or are there better generalist setups now?
One more question...well two more. If I use the Farsight Enclaves I still can build a combined arms Tau army that has ghostkeels and stormsurges and as Farsight puts Crisis in Troops and not Elites can you take Crisis in the Troop slot of a Farsight Hunter Contingent?
I think that the Ion Raker and TL Fusion are generally hailed as good ideas. I personally like the Fusion Collider and TL Fusion on two of them and the Ion Raker on one. But it depends strongly on whether you are using them in or out of a Ghostkeel Wing or Optimized Stealth Cadre and whether you have a Stormsurge that can already handle the D-Weapon type responsibilities. But generally.... Ion Raker and TL Fusion are probably what most will hail as preferable. it's a pretty good combo.
As for the Crisis teams, The dual Cyclic Ion Blaster setup is pretty darn awesome. I'd try that. it is a ton o firepower coming from a unit much more inexpensive than the Ghostkeels will be. =). The easy answer to that is, are you going to DS them? range matters a lot less if you are. But if you are committed to starting things o nteh table, the missiles are hard ot beat. You get to hit early and often with them. Plasma is great for close line defense.
Dont have a codex to answer the Hunter Contingent queston
Okay I bought a ghostkeel to possibly create interest in building a 7th edition Tau army. What is the best load out as far as primary gun, secondary gun and support systems with a take all comers blind build approach?
I personally like the Cyclic Ion Raker and burst cannon or fusion blaster combo. Gives decent RoF and high strength. But it really depends on the rest of your army.. if you are looking to the keel as your low ap.. then your probably going to want the collider.
Right now I've built the parts to do a fusion collider and TW Fusiom Blasters but can't decide what sort of support systems the ghostkeel would get any use out of.
This unfortunately is also fully dependent on the roll your choosing. I like interceptor, why not?! its 5pts and gives you options. I also like having counterfire on as many high RoF models as I can. But that is the game I play. Some people like spending the extra points on stims for FNP, but other than those, i don't think it is necessary to upgrade the optional slots.
Also is the plasma rifle and missile pod crisis suit setup still good or are there better generalist setups now?
Since the new codex allows the ion rifle to be taken in mass, that general build has been replaced by 2 cyclic ion blaster (cib) or a cib and a plasma/fusion gun. Generally, this comes down to the role you want your crisis suit to be.. check out my signature for a guide I put together. I cover a few different options.
One more question...well two more. If I use the Farsight Enclaves I still can build a combined arms Tau army that has ghostkeels and stormsurges and as Farsight puts Crisis in Troops and not Elites can you take Crisis in the Troop slot of a Farsight Hunter Contingent?
TLDR: No; The only time that this comes into play is when your using either a Combined Arms Detachment or the special Allie Detachment from the brb. Otherwise you must follow the standard requirements of the detachment. In this case, the hunter contingent does not require 3-6 troops, it is requiring 3-6 units of either breachers/strikers/etc.
The long run I plan to run the ghostkeel with a pair of stormsurges. If I remember right the ghostkeel needs to be in close to the enemy so I figured fusion collider. I suppose flamer would be cool too. Everything is getting magneted so I'm not married to a load out lol.
I haven't thought of cyclic ion blasters on crisis. Do they even make those for the models?
Thanks for the info on the hunter contingent. I'd probably just stick to a farsight combine arms for the short run and then do standard contingent in the long run.
Grizzyzz wrote: Short range? The heavy burst is 36" that is plenty of range to hit basically anything that you want. If you play vanguard or dawn of war deployment, you can essentially position yourself to hit about everything on the board. I have yet to have any issue with my riptide wing even hail firing on turn 1 effectively. It is not the 72" (or 60" ?) of the Ion Accelerator, but if your shooting that far, your secondary is near worthless anyway as well.
Additionally, the problem comes with the current meta and cost. More than half of the game is survival now. Especially at tournaments, and the riptide is one of the best survivors in our codex. I can bring a 8 man squad of firewarriors and devilfish, or a tricked out pathfinder crew for out flanking. or a 4 man crisis squad with double plasmas, and while they each have their place, none of them can withstand the same punishment as a riptide for equal cost. You said it yourself earlier, its not always about the one turn firepower, its about the firepower you can put out throughout the 5 turns. And nothing in our codex short of ghostkeel and the stormsurge is able to do that, and on top of that, be versatile enough to make last minute strides to objectives or suddenly change roles (via nova charge). Riptide was made too good in my opinion. (complete seperate topic, but is one of the core issues with the tau codex, that I think needs changed).
Survival is a thing. I agree. Another thing that is a thing is acceptable losses and saturation. also still a thing. D Weapons? Also a thing.
I have pretty clearly acknowledged several times that the Riptide Wing is good. So i dont THINK we're even arguing that point here. I don't need to be told why its good when I already said it was. Lol.
I'm just telling you that there are other options I prefer more. And now i see people jetting around with four of the things. Its interesting.
The counter is fast melee....as it ever is with the Tau Empire. You gotta take your round of lumps going in and then make hay. The formula is unchanged and so my personal style is to take some of that away from the enemy as an option. I do that by varying my attack and having better answers to more things by being positionally dominant instead of GREAT answers to a few things and being a sitting target.
Dark eldar kind of illustrate my point. Riptide Wings can go down in an awful hurry to them and they really arent a "power Codex" but they do provide a somewhat perfect counter. Speed, melee you can protect on the way in, and lots of Instant Death attacks. The sheer volume of dice allows for a fair chance at it. Even if they lose every round of combat to a Riptide (unlikely), its going nowhere the rest of the game and firing at no one, its super ripple fire potentially wasted on the hull of a Raider or Tantalus if it got it off at all.
Just an example of the type of army i would want to have a slightly different option when facing than just spamming Riptides. Again understanding that spamming Riptides is a very strong play. i have agreed already.
Riptide wing is probably the best non-flyer thing in the army against fast melee, re-rollable boost and high volume of fire. The argument of the fast melee threat seems to actually be just more justification for taking this formation, not against. Dark Eldar is one of the armies I'd want possibly more Riptides than anything.
Grizzyzz wrote: Short range? The heavy burst is 36" that is plenty of range to hit basically anything that you want. If you play vanguard or dawn of war deployment, you can essentially position yourself to hit about everything on the board. I have yet to have any issue with my riptide wing even hail firing on turn 1 effectively. It is not the 72" (or 60" ?) of the Ion Accelerator, but if your shooting that far, your secondary is near worthless anyway as well.
Additionally, the problem comes with the current meta and cost. More than half of the game is survival now. Especially at tournaments, and the riptide is one of the best survivors in our codex. I can bring a 8 man squad of firewarriors and devilfish, or a tricked out pathfinder crew for out flanking. or a 4 man crisis squad with double plasmas, and while they each have their place, none of them can withstand the same punishment as a riptide for equal cost. You said it yourself earlier, its not always about the one turn firepower, its about the firepower you can put out throughout the 5 turns. And nothing in our codex short of ghostkeel and the stormsurge is able to do that, and on top of that, be versatile enough to make last minute strides to objectives or suddenly change roles (via nova charge). Riptide was made too good in my opinion. (complete seperate topic, but is one of the core issues with the tau codex, that I think needs changed).
Survival is a thing. I agree. Another thing that is a thing is acceptable losses and saturation. also still a thing. D Weapons? Also a thing.
I have pretty clearly acknowledged several times that the Riptide Wing is good. So i dont THINK we're even arguing that point here. I don't need to be told why its good when I already said it was. Lol.
I'm just telling you that there are other options I prefer more. And now i see people jetting around with four of the things. Its interesting.
The counter is fast melee....as it ever is with the Tau Empire. You gotta take your round of lumps going in and then make hay. The formula is unchanged and so my personal style is to take some of that away from the enemy as an option. I do that by varying my attack and having better answers to more things by being positionally dominant instead of GREAT answers to a few things and being a sitting target.
Dark eldar kind of illustrate my point. Riptide Wings can go down in an awful hurry to them and they really arent a "power Codex" but they do provide a somewhat perfect counter. Speed, melee you can protect on the way in, and lots of Instant Death attacks. The sheer volume of dice allows for a fair chance at it. Even if they lose every round of combat to a Riptide (unlikely), its going nowhere the rest of the game and firing at no one, its super ripple fire potentially wasted on the hull of a Raider or Tantalus if it got it off at all.
Just an example of the type of army i would want to have a slightly different option when facing than just spamming Riptides. Again understanding that spamming Riptides is a very strong play. i have agreed already.
Riptide wing is probably the best non-flyer thing in the army against fast melee, re-rollable boost and high volume of fire. The argument of the fast melee threat seems to actually be just more justification for taking this formation, not against. Dark Eldar is one of the armies I'd want possibly more Riptides than anything.
That is your prerogative. the three Riptide Wing forces which have felt the sting of my Dark Eldar would disagree however, unanimously. Mostly because they werent on the table after the fifth round, in all three cases.
It's one thing to imagine, but its another to see it in play. the Dark eldar can literally be on top of the Riptides in one turn and charging them in the second. By turn three the Talos have arrived. By round four, the game is in hand and we are playing it out.
Once you do that to someone, you have no wish to have it done to you. So you learn from it and plan accordingly so that you are taking advantage of the Riptides without over committing to both their strengths and their weakness. I love the Riptide Wing but I don't feel compelled to use it.
That is your prerogative. the three Riptide Wing forces which have felt the sting of my Dark Eldar would disagree however, unanimously. Mostly because they werent on the table after the fifth round, in all three cases.
It's one thing to imagine, but its another to see it in play. the Dark eldar can literally be on top of the Riptides in one turn and charging them in the second. By turn three the Talos have arrived. By round four, the game is in hand and we are playing it out.
Once you do that to someone, you have no wish to have it done to you. So you learn from it and plan accordingly so that you are taking advantage of the Riptides without over committing to both their strengths and their weakness. I love the Riptide Wing but I don't feel compelled to use it.
What was his list? How was he charging you turn 2?
Charging Riptides turn 2 is the easy part. Several armies can do it now. The hard part is making sure you have enough girth to handle the firepower incoming when you do it.
I did it with Aethersails.
Jancoran wrote: Charging Riptides turn 2 is the easy part. Several armies can do it now. The hard part is making sure you have enough girth to handle the firepower incoming when you do it.
I did it with Aethersails.
It's really hard to envision what you are saying. Are you going to share the list?
So another army that I deal with in terms of quick melee is demon armies right now. Two of my friends play with mass fleshhound armies, that scout and move 12" so they are in yuor face turn 1. You have to prioritize and take out as many as possible because you will be in melee turn 2.
So far I am 1-1 and my loss was him having <5 hounds and a juggernaut left, and me having more than half my army. (maelstrom point victory).
I like DE, people whine alot, but they are a good army. But I have found them one of the easiest for Tau to deal with. Even prior to the update. my 2cents
Grizzyzz wrote: So another army that I deal with in terms of quick melee is demon armies right now. Two of my friends play with mass fleshhound armies, that scout and move 12" so they are in yuor face turn 1. You have to prioritize and take out as many as possible because you will be in melee turn 2.
So far I am 1-1 and my loss was him having <5 hounds and a juggernaut left, and me having more than half my army. (maelstrom point victory).
I like DE, people whine alot, but they are a good army. But I have found them one of the easiest for Tau to deal with. Even prior to the update. my 2cents
Given how easily my vanilla marines (no formations) crushed my housemate's DE, I find it very hard to imagine they can go toe-to-toe with Riptide Wings.
Grizzyzz wrote: So another army that I deal with in terms of quick melee is demon armies right now. Two of my friends play with mass fleshhound armies, that scout and move 12" so they are in yuor face turn 1. You have to prioritize and take out as many as possible because you will be in melee turn 2.
So far I am 1-1 and my loss was him having <5 hounds and a juggernaut left, and me having more than half my army. (maelstrom point victory).
I like DE, people whine alot, but they are a good army. But I have found them one of the easiest for Tau to deal with. Even prior to the update. my 2cents
Given how easily my vanilla marines (no formations) crushed my housemate's DE, I find it very hard to imagine they can go toe-to-toe with Riptide Wings.
And my housemate is a *far* better player than I.
I'm almost certain they are not as well, I just can't see it... however I'm willing to play it out and see for myself, maybe I'm wrong. Jancoran seems to be all talk no walk, but if someone else gives me a melee army list from DE that they think can take on Riptides I'm going to give it a go, might have to proxy a model or two but I'll make a batrep of it and we'll all see how it plays
Most people, including me, will tell you that Tau are basically a hard counter to DE. You have an excellent answer for everything they can field. Massed S7 with interceptor or ignores cover pop Raiders and flyers with ease. Your basic troops mulch DE's on the way into combat. Without mobility, DE have nothing, and you deny their mobility better than any army in the game.
The only thing you have to watch out for is Haemonculus Covens. Taloses can be fairly tough to off, especially in a Corpsethief, but they're so slow that you should be able to kite them without issue. Grotesques, on the other hand, can hurt. You may off the Raiders, but having a few rampage-ready combat beasts dumped at your front door can be a big problem. Again, though, they're painfully slow without a transport. Feed them some bubble wrap, and kite as necessary.
I think dark eldar could tackle tau with two grotesquerie formations in raiders with A ethers ails backed up by the CTC. But this heavily relies on going first or have a table with line of sight blocking terrain.
Given how easily my vanilla marines (no formations) crushed my housemate's DE, I find it very hard to imagine they can go toe-to-toe with Riptide Wings.
And my housemate is a *far* better player than I.
You move to the Riptide Wing in Turn one. You let them blast away at the Raiders, jinking like crazy but ultimately they die. You throw your leader with cool saves up there to ablate what you can (knowing he will die but doing the whole selective Look out Sir thing). Then you assault. And instant death is cool. I'm not sure what part of it is challenging you. One failed save and poof, dead Riptide.
Typically they like to shoot the Talos, which I understand since they can scout, move and run for a pretty good jump up the field round one and they spread out so much that you kind of hedge them in.
I have faced the Riptide Wing three times and it was a massacre. I took it in the face for a turn but then mostly am protected from shooting. I will say that my timing was fairly good as far as when I managed to kill them off. It mattered.
Its basically just four units of grotesques, Urien, Haemonculous, unit of Talos and raiders. Pretty much it. Been focusing on other armies but that's what it be. 29 models of fun. My Tau have been consuming me lately as i am very much enjoying the Infiltration Cadre.
I'm almost certain they are not as well, I just can't see it... however I'm willing to play it out and see for myself, maybe I'm wrong. Jancoran seems to be all talk no walk..
I'm pretty sure a forum isn't where I'll do my "walking". But a lot of Batreps and commentary can be found on my blog. So feel free to explore it.
If you want to try it out, whip open the old Haemonculous Coven book and have some fun. I like the book a fair amount. it has gaping holes in it you can run trucks through, but it has the tools to handle some nasty stuff also. Kind of a dichotomy.
Given how easily my vanilla marines (no formations) crushed my housemate's DE, I find it very hard to imagine they can go toe-to-toe with Riptide Wings.
And my housemate is a *far* better player than I.
You move to the Riptide Wing in Turn one. You let them blast away at the Raiders, jinking like crazy but ultimately they die. You throw your leader with cool saves up there to ablate what you can (knowing he will die but doing the whole selective Look out Sir thing). Then you assault. And instant death is cool. I'm not sure what part of it is challenging you. One failed save and poof, dead Riptide.
Typically they like to shoot the Talos, which I understand since they can scout, move and run for a pretty good jump up the field round one and they spread out so much that you kind of hedge them in.
I have faced the Riptide Wing three times and it was a massacre. I took it in the face for a turn but then mostly am protected from shooting. I will say that my timing was fairly good as far as when I managed to kill them off. It mattered.
Its basically just four units of grotesques, Urien, Haemonculous, unit of Talos and raiders. Pretty much it. Been focusing on other armies but that's what it be. 29 models of fun. My Tau have been consuming me lately as i am very much enjoying the Infiltration Cadre.
is that pretty much it? I'll take it for a whirl and we will see how we do, however just like almost every other tourney we play at 1850 points, so I've changed the list to have 6x 3 Grot's in Raiders instead of 4x4, thats a couple more Grots all up and now in 6 units making it even harder to bring them all down before CC, seems like a definite improvement against Riptide Wings. I'll come back and share my opinions with everyone in here once we get this game in.
I'm almost certain they are not as well, I just can't see it... however I'm willing to play it out and see for myself, maybe I'm wrong. Jancoran seems to be all talk no walk..
I'm pretty sure a forum isn't where I'll do my "walking". But a lot of Batreps and commentary can be found on my blog. So feel free to explore it.
If you want to try it out, whip open the old Haemonculous Coven book and have some fun. I like the book a fair amount. it has gaping holes in it you can run trucks through, but it has the tools to handle some nasty stuff also. Kind of a dichotomy.
well, you kept ignoring everytime you were asked for a list, so it seems like you were unable to support your claims. In fact, I had to make the list myself based off the loose description you finally ended up giving in a post to someone else.
Anyway, now your here - I feel like this list autoloses to Riptides if they get first turn. Would you say this is correct, if so I will give Dark Eldar the first turn for free when we play. If not, we will roll for it as per normal, but I feel if I get turn 1 its gunna be pretty hard for him to win...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: You need Aethersails as i mentioned. Also need TL Haywire Blasters. And orb of despair.
Oh. and they need to be in the Grotesquerie Formation.
And my list was 2K. So there's that
well, I did ask you to provide the list you were basing your opinions off multiple times, so there's that. Forgive me if I got it wrong.
Mind converting the list to 1850 for me, so that I don't get it wrong again?
I'm almost certain they are not as well, I just can't see it... however I'm willing to play it out and see for myself, maybe I'm wrong. Jancoran seems to be all talk no walk..
I'm pretty sure a forum isn't where I'll do my "walking". But a lot of Batreps and commentary can be found on my blog. So feel free to explore it.
If you want to try it out, whip open the old Haemonculous Coven book and have some fun. I like the book a fair amount. it has gaping holes in it you can run trucks through, but it has the tools to handle some nasty stuff also. Kind of a dichotomy.
well, you kept ignoring everytime you were asked for a list, so it seems like you were unable to support your claims. In fact, I had to make the list myself based off the loose description you finally ended up giving in a post to someone else.
Anyway, now your here - I feel like this list autoloses to Riptides if they get first turn. Would you say this is correct, if so I will give Dark Eldar the first turn for free when we play. If not, we will roll for it as per normal, but I feel if I get turn 1 its gunna be pretty hard for him to win...
Naw. I went first in two games, second in one. In the game i went second, I just hung back for a turn and outflanked the Talos. So i executed the move up pretty much the same except for the outflank and the timing. Sometimes the best shot you take is the one you don't take.
I'm almost certain they are not as well, I just can't see it... however I'm willing to play it out and see for myself, maybe I'm wrong. Jancoran seems to be all talk no walk..
I'm pretty sure a forum isn't where I'll do my "walking". But a lot of Batreps and commentary can be found on my blog. So feel free to explore it.
If you want to try it out, whip open the old Haemonculous Coven book and have some fun. I like the book a fair amount. it has gaping holes in it you can run trucks through, but it has the tools to handle some nasty stuff also. Kind of a dichotomy.
well, you kept ignoring everytime you were asked for a list, so it seems like you were unable to support your claims. In fact, I had to make the list myself based off the loose description you finally ended up giving in a post to someone else.
Anyway, now your here - I feel like this list autoloses to Riptides if they get first turn. Would you say this is correct, if so I will give Dark Eldar the first turn for free when we play. If not, we will roll for it as per normal, but I feel if I get turn 1 its gunna be pretty hard for him to win...
Naw. I went first in two games, second in one. In the game i went second, I just hung back for a turn and outflanked the Talos. So i executed the move up pretty much the same except for the outflank and the timing. Sometimes the best shot you take is the one you don't take.
no worries, we will roll for it as per usual then, hopefully this isn't as bad as I think it will be! We do have heavy terrain at least... but Raiders are big models!
mind shaving your list down to 1850 pts for me so that I can start getting this prepared?
well, you kept ignoring everytime you were asked for a list,
well, I did ask you to provide the list you were basing your opinions off multiple times...
I dont think I espoused an opinion. I related an experience. Three in fact. And i used them to explain why I don't use the Riptide Wing. You're fixating on the Dark eldar list i used instead of the lesson learned.
This is Dakkadakka. not a friendly neighborhood game store where we're trading ideas. I have learned through painful experience that this forum is the LAST place i want to try and prove anything to anyone. So i will share my ideas if you really care, and you can test them if you want to. But its not really the focus of what I was saying.
I guess at 1850 you could do it, but you lose a couple of things that are kind of important (Urien in particular). I'll PM you the list so I dont have to sit and trim all the darn points out to make it dakkdakka legal.
Sent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Revised list sent. Messed up on one part. oops. Kinda a big part. Lol
well, you kept ignoring everytime you were asked for a list,
well, I did ask you to provide the list you were basing your opinions off multiple times...
I dont think I espoused an opinion. I related an experience. Three in fact. And i used them to explain why I don't use the Riptide Wing. You're fixating on the Dark eldar list i used instead of the lesson learned.
This is Dakkadakka. not a friendly neighborhood game store where we're trading ideas. I have learned through painful experience that this forum is the LAST place i want to try and prove anything to anyone. So i will share my ideas if you really care, and you can test them if you want to. But its not really the focus of what I was saying.
I guess at 1850 you could do it, but you lose a couple of things that are kind of important (Urien in particular). I'll PM you the list so I dont have to sit and trim all the darn points out to make it dakkdakka legal.
Sent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Revised list sent. Messed up on one part. oops. Kinda a big part. Lol
No worries. I just can't envision what you are saying, but then again I haven't specifically played against that style of DE build. So instead of me saying you are wrong, and you saying you are right, I figured I'll take it to the battlefield and see if it's actually as bad a match up as I think it is. It's not to prove anything because my recount is just as anecdotal as anyone else's, its just to up my knowledge and at the same time add another opinion from someone who can also say they've played the match-up. Plus, it'll be fun to play anyway.
Thanks for the list! Any specific tips for how to deploy this DE army, just to make sure we're giving them the fairest swack possible?
well, you kept ignoring everytime you were asked for a list,
well, I did ask you to provide the list you were basing your opinions off multiple times...
I dont think I espoused an opinion. I related an experience. Three in fact. And i used them to explain why I don't use the Riptide Wing. You're fixating on the Dark eldar list i used instead of the lesson learned.
This is Dakkadakka. not a friendly neighborhood game store where we're trading ideas. I have learned through painful experience that this forum is the LAST place i want to try and prove anything to anyone. So i will share my ideas if you really care, and you can test them if you want to. But its not really the focus of what I was saying.
I guess at 1850 you could do it, but you lose a couple of things that are kind of important (Urien in particular). I'll PM you the list so I dont have to sit and trim all the darn points out to make it dakkdakka legal.
Sent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Revised list sent. Messed up on one part. oops. Kinda a big part. Lol
No worries. I just can't envision what you are saying, but then again I haven't specifically played against that style of DE build. So instead of me saying you are wrong, and you saying you are right, I figured I'll take it to the battlefield and see if it's actually as bad a match up as I think it is. It's not to prove anything because my recount is just as anecdotal as anyone else's, its just to up my knowledge and at the same time add another opinion from someone who can also say they've played the match-up. Plus, it'll be fun to play anyway.
Thanks for the list! Any specific tips for how to deploy this DE army, just to make sure we're giving them the fairest swack possible?
Well unfortunately Urien adds a lot to the list and for it to work you kind of have to exclude him at 1850 to cover more bases, but a few things I found important:
1. The Dark Lances are ornamentation. Dont bother firing them unless they have ABSOLUTELY no one they can be protecting or objectives they can be taking. The list does have a weak spot which is AV 12 or better armor. That is why the Lances and also the scissorhands are there. Both are there to help with armor as is the Talos Haywire blasters. But again, shooting should be the absolute last resort.
2. Be aware of the Power From Pain Chart. Without Urien in the list, you have to watch it carefully. Being Fearless is kind of a big deal, so premeasure and if possible and prudent to do so, go first but play it like you're going second. If you can hide and do nothing turn one, its not a terrible idea.
3. Multicharge fearlessly. Rampage replaces the attacks you would normally lose so absolutely be willing to go for multicharges. That is really the key I found against the Riptide wing. I could jump out and multicharge without loss of attacks. They were already going to suyppot fire me to death anyways, so I lost nothing by multicharging Tau in particular.
4. When going first, scout the Talos and use them to form a box with your Raiders on the approach. You definitely want to give the enemy nowhere to run to and no way to get free to objectives. When going second outflanking the Talos can be pretty useful. Depends on how they deploy of course so thats a total judgement call but its easy to forget that those beasts can do it.
I head for the heart of the enemy with the 36" move the Aethersails allow. You want to be right in the middle with options to move either direction if need be. So straight to the center of the enemy. No hesitation. Jinking of course. No sense firing weapons when you can jink.
The army isnt complicated. you have ave one that just SMASHES things on impact and ties everything up and blockades it. Then the Talos Wave coming behind it to catch the breakthroughs while the surviving Raiders skitter about to objectives if they can. No finesse to it.
Lets say you go turn 1.. and move right up into the Tau players face. Do they not usually run any markerlights? They move 6" away from you. they use markerlights to remove cover, and then even basic firewarriors can glance and pen raiders.
I realize you probably have around 6 raiders maybe at 2k points.. but I am afraid that with the tremendous firepower of Tau that your AV10 won't be enough. If it were me I would ignore all your grotesques and pop all your raiders turn 1. because now your dudes are stuck moving 6" a turn and could be easily kited. through move+JSJ..
Idk DE need some 7th edition help.. I am unable to see how this list is unbeatable for a tau player with or without a riptide wing.
Lets say you go turn 1.. and move right up into the Tau players face. Do they not usually run any markerlights? They move 6" away from you. they use markerlights to remove cover, and then even basic firewarriors can glance and pen raiders.
I realize you probably have around 6 raiders maybe at 2k points.. but I am afraid that with the tremendous firepower of Tau that your AV10 won't be enough. If it were me I would ignore all your grotesques and pop all your raiders turn 1. because now your dudes are stuck moving 6" a turn and could be easily kited. through move+JSJ..
Idk DE need some 7th edition help.. I am unable to see how this list is unbeatable for a tau player with or without a riptide wing.
I'm not sure i said it WAS unbeatable. I said it was what I used to beat them three times (yes out of three). But I dd not say unbeatable. I know of no list that is.
But to your points, competitive Tau lists don't have prolific Fire Warriors. Sometimes not more than 10. Most of the resources are spent buffing the Riptides with Drone Nets and adding in a Crisis Bomb that costs 600 points at times or perhaps adding a second Riptide Wing even, or adding more Riptides TO the Rptide Wing. In any event, the Riptide Wings I fought were three Riptides and Crisis type ones using Farsight Enclave Obsec Suits and so on.
Please do share your thoughts and opinions, any predictions on how it's going to turn out? Is it going like you expected it would? To Jancoran, is this usually how the board looks after turn 1? Hit me with the responses guys.
That's way more Riptides than I have ever seen fielded. Lol.
The Positioning of the Grotesques is bad here. Hard to tell what actually happened from the description but just going off this final pic here, I would say the Grotesques were badly positioned after being blown out.
Also, I know i spoke to you about boxing them in and you split the Raiders it looks like to me. The four raiders should have sped towards the 5 Riptides and allowed the Talos to form a flank, so that to escape the Riptides have to go towards the talos (the box comment I was talking about).
As it is this looks like a disaster about to happen for the Dark eldar. Lol.
You can kind of see this coming once they failed to focus on the larger group of Riptides. Im guesstimating but it looks range-wise lik the right most Riptides would not all jhave had range on the Grotesques had they been more cautious as to their vector.
Anywho, I do not foresee Dark Eldar victory here unless the distances i am looking at on this are not correct.
this is all made worse by the fact that they could have actually stayed 43" away at the start of the game and allowed a turn to pass by. It actually would have helped them I think with the Power From Pain table.
So yeah. These guys are in trouble but at least the grotesques can reach the Riptides from there. but the game is over at this point. Too many mistakes.
Also how did these riptides miraculously kep formation with their random jumps?
Jancoran wrote: That's way more Riptides than I have ever seen fielded. Lol.
Which should be to your benefit if Riptides worse against this list as you said. On top of that, hard to judge the validity of Riptides if I only field 3, no matter what happens how much of the outcome do we attribute to Riptides if they are only 600 pts of 1850? Remember, this battle has been done up to test Dark Eldar vs Riptides, to test your theories that Riptides were not as good as other options here.
The Positioning of the Grotesques is bad here. Hard to tell what actually happened from the description but just going off this final pic here, I would say the Grotesques were badly positioned after being blown out.
Also, I know i spoke to you about boxing them in and you split the Raiders it looks like to me. The four raiders should have sped towards the 5 Riptides and allowed the Talos to form a flank, so that to escape the Riptides have to go towards the talos (the box comment I was talking about).
even with the 18" of movement past the deployment zone that only SOME of the talos were lucky enough to get, that still would have put them exactly where the Riptides are now, meaning the Riptides could have just bailed to the right, and meaning that the Talos's threaten absolutely nothing all game, will take multiple turns to make it into combat as even just as an executioner to whatever the Grots caught IF it still happened be alive, which would basically mean you had 700 wasted points of Talos in your army.
Also, the way the Raiders were deployed, there was no way to commit them all to one side and avoid fire from the other Riptides. If there was, THIS would have been a mistake from the Riptide players deploying, hardly something you can rely on. You can say "oh well then you should have deploy them all to the one side", and had you had done that, the Riptides would have deployed reactively to that too, and your assault ranges on a core of the army would have been cut drastically short.
Anywho, I do not foresee Dark Eldar victory here unless the distances i am looking at on this are not correct.
The distances that you are looking at on that are not correct, I just drew it up by hand to give a rough overview of where everything is to help readers visualize a bit better.
this is all made worse by the fact that they could have actually stayed 43" away at the start of the game and allowed a turn to pass by. It actually would have helped them I think with the Power From Pain table.
you wouldn't have been able to keep away from all of them, every turn you spend keeping away is a turn of free fire for at least some of the riptides, until you come up close and they take the Hailfire turn.
On top of that, they did exactly what you've been saying they should, got up in the face as soon as possible.
Assuming that wasn't the case though, what would fearless have done for them here? This doesn't seem at all relevant, in any way shape or form.
Also how did these riptides miraculously keep formation with their random jumps?
you make one JSJ roll per Jetpack unit, not per model.
No matter how you slice it, this seemed like the best way to do it. I feel like this is just a bad MU, you couldn't threaten everything with the Grots and the Riptides mobility is a direct counter to your army.
I've run a grotesquerie against Riptides several times before and they were rough games. I was able to win, but it was before the riptide wing formation came out, so I don't think it would do as well anymore. I also never got an instant death attack on a riptide because that requires me getting the 6 to wound and them getting the 1 to save. Usually it was the aberration with the scissorhand that was getting damage in (which doesn't have instant death) and I was just hoping to win the combat by enough to sweep them.
A single Riptide will reliably kill both raiders that the grotesque are in if he hailfires and ripple fires SMS. The other two can each reliably kill 2 grotesque each and that's without any markerlight support at all. If they get a couple markerlights on the grotesque they should each be able to wipe a unit or get them low enough that the overwatch would finish them off.
Shredder shards, the Talos are ONE unit. They should be moving AS ONE. I am not sure what you are saying here? Almost sounds like you are traeting them as two units?
And there was a way to commit them to one side. the 43" mark would have been easy to reach for the Raiders. Essentially you would just spend the turn repositioning your start point, out of 43" range and then launch. So you could have and should have done that (I dont know if you're playing yourself here or not, but since we're having the discussion I think it worth pointing out). this also again would have helped you on the Power From Pain Chart. You take an awful risk here by allowing NONfearless Grotesques tofacethe whirlwind. The Ion Accelerator would be the only shot at that point and thats IF it could draw the line and thats only against one target with no markerlight support. So a LOT of this could have been fixed at deployment, really. So again, the splitting up of the Raiders is not the way to do this. I'm not getting on your case, i am just expanding for you on how better to use the Dark Eldar list for future reference. I've used this essential list a lot (I varied it somewhat for objective snaking in more ITC driven missions but this really is about it).
I disagree on your point about Fearless. You cant know what will happen in the future but what you DO know is that just getting blown OUT could force morale and that is bad.
I would try this again. but it will be interesting to see how your battle progresses.
The artistry of any battle plan is in the adjustments and in this case you really REALLY needed to consolidate over to the strong side. More terrain to interpose, more distance to frustrate the range 30" missiles and so on. You have 72" of width to work with here so use it all.
As a reminder, the discussion at hand was whether I should take my two Riptides and add one, to form a Riptide Wing. I had said that doing so was a 200 point expenditure that really tied my hands on other units I would want. I used my own experience playing Dark Eldar to illustrate the devastation i brought against other Riptide wings.
9 Riptides is probably an extreme level that most any list could struggle against (and they certainly would if they are short range and not punchy) but in order to see that clearly i think the Dark eldar in this case did themselves no favors by not attacking the strongside. Thats just my observation from having played it.
Jancoran wrote: Shredder shards, the Talos are ONE unit. They should be moving AS ONE. I am not sure what you are saying here? Almost sounds like you are traeting them as two units?
We are. Are they not? The way you formatted your list made it read like they were 2 different units. Re-reading the formation, it seems that isn't possible. We'll give you them the benefit of the doubt and consolidate the 3 in with the smaller unit that rolled 6 on its run roll when we pick back up.
And there was a way to commit them to one side. the 43" mark would have been easy to reach for the Raiders. Essentially you would just spend the turn repositioning your start point, out of 43" range and then launch. So you could have and should have done that (I dont know if you're playing yourself here or not, but since we're having the discussion I think it worth pointing out). this also again would have helped you on the Power From Pain Chart. You take an awful risk here by allowing NONfearless Grotesques tofacethe whirlwind. The Ion Accelerator would be the only shot at that point and thats IF it could draw the line and thats only against one target with no markerlight support. So a LOT of this could have been fixed at deployment, really. So again, the splitting up of the Raiders is not the way to do this. I'm not getting on your case, i am just expanding for you on how better to use the Dark Eldar list for future reference. I've used this essential list a lot (I varied it somewhat for objective snaking in more ITC driven missions but this really is about it).
Cool, then it's free shots against the Talos's until you decide to commit, and you throw away the one advantage you have, which is how many things you could threaten in a turn when everything was still on the deployment zone. You wait one turn, and everything spreads. This would be a terrible way to play the army.
I disagree on your point about Fearless. You cant know what will happen in the future but what you DO know is that just getting blown OUT could force morale and that is bad.
I can tell you absolutely and factually, that not having fearless has had absolutely NO impact on the current state of the game. I know this, because I played it. Will it have an impact on the future of the game? I'm going to say "almost undoubtably not" because from this point onwards they have had Fearless regardless of whether or they wasted their first turn advantage.
Also, you specifically said NOT to do what you are saying I did wrong now.
It feels very much to me that no matter how we had played this, you were going to complain "you did it wrong". Because thats exactly what you are doing. If you had done it your way you would be assaulting 4 not 5 riptides next turn at best. Although more that likely not even that.
The artistry of any battle plan is in the adjustments and in this case you really REALLY needed to consolidate over to the strong side. More terrain to interpose, more distance to frustrate the range 30" missiles and so on. You have 72" of width to work with here so use it all.
No idea what this means. Are you saying if we play again, play longways? I think you'll find that is heavily to the benefit of the Riptides than your own army, but we can do this.
As a reminder, the discussion at hand was whether I should take my two Riptides and add one, to form a Riptide Wing. I had said that doing so was a 200 point expenditure that really tied my hands on other units I would want. I used my own experience playing Dark Eldar to illustrate the devastation i brought against other Riptide wings.
9 Riptides is probably an extreme level that most any list could struggle against (and they certainly would if they are short range and not punchy) but in order to see that clearly i think the Dark eldar in this case did themselves no favors by not attacking the strongside. Thats just my observation from having played it.
So more Riptides is a stronger list than 2 Riptides and 2 Storm Surges? Well, I guess that settles it then. You were wrong about how to play this army.
What was the mission? Just Kill Points? Or what?
ITC mission 6, as stated in the opening paragraph.
I would try this again. but it will be interesting to see how your battle progresses.
We played it out. Tau won extremely decisively. Even the Grots that did make it to CC had very little impact, doing a grand total of about 5 wounds spread between the 5 different Riptides the two Grot units managed to tackle. The ones to the left actually lost combat quite heavily to the 3 man Riptides, losing 2 just to Overwatch alone.
I think you have been playing against some really poor Tau opposition used to just grabbing their corner and keeping it, or you have been getting insanely lucky, to have a positive result against Riptides. There is absolutely no reason this should work, and playing it as smart as possible irregardless to your complaints, it's turning out much like how we all expected.
However, we might play again, and do it exactly your way, no matter how much it seems counter productive. We will hide the Raiders in a corner together, wait a turn before committing them while pushing Talos's up the field, then drop all 4 on the strongest "clump" of the army that we can find.
Will playing it like that be satisfactory? I feel like no matter what happens you are going to have some reason how we played it wrong here, but the way this went kind of confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt to me that Riptides are very much a counter to what you are doing, and your reasoning for not taking 3 of them has proved illogical here. I feel if anything is getting your win against 2x Stormsurge Tau that you are used to playing, its the fact that he has ~800 points in 2 easily tied up and killed units, rather than the 3 individual Riptide units.
Tau could have actually played this even better as well. I just don't think it was going to happen for DE here.
I just played my Tau in a local tournament, and came in 2nd place (out of only 6 players unfortunately). My list was the following:
Detachment 1: Combined Arms Detachment
HQ:
Commander: 2x Missile Pod, Target Lock, Drone Controller, Iridium Suit, 2x Marker Drone
Elites:
XV104 Riptide: Ion Accelerator, TL Smart Missile System, EWO, Stim Injector
Troops:
Breacher Team: 7 men, Shas'ui upgrade, Guardian Drone, dedicated Devilfish w/Sensor Spines and D-pod
Kroot Squad: 10 men, Sniper Rounds
Heavy Support:
Sky Ray: TL Smart Missile System, D-pod, Blacksun Filter
Lord of War:
KV128 Stormsurge: Pulse Driver Cannon, TL Frag Projector, Advanced Targeting System, EWO, Shield Generator
Detachment 2: Optimized Stealth Cadre
XV95 Ghostkeel: Cyclic Ion Raker, TL Fusion Blaster, EWO, Stim Injector
Stealth Team: Shas'vre upgrade, Fusion Blaster and ML+Target Lock on Shas'vre
Stealth Team: Shas'vre upgrade, Fusion Blaster and ML+Target Lock on Shas'vre
Detachment 3: Drone-Net VX1-0
4 units of 4 Marker Drones
My opponents were Ad Mech War Convocation, Blood Angels with Iron Hands, and Ultramarines. The War Convocation had 2 Knights and no drop pod taxis. I beat it fairly handily. My Stormsurge planted his heels and just went to town, although his D-missile strike kind of fizzled. and only took 5 hull points off of a Knights, which was then finished by other units. My Riptide failed 4/5 of his nova charges, although he saved one with FnP. He was on his last wound at the end of the game, having taken just one from enemy fire. The Kroot were the real heroes, as they passed three or four morale checks after taking casualties but held their ground like proud soldiers of the Greater Good. They did the most scoring, as they had infiltrated into the center control zone (in some ruins).
The BA/IH list had 11 drop pods and 7 Dreadnoughts, including 3 Fragiosos, 2 Ironclads, the one from the Shield of Baal: Deathstorm box, and a Rifleman (who did not start in a pod). It was a Baal Strike force with an IHCAD. I played the Stormsurge more aggressively in this game and did not plant his feet. This turned out to be a good tactical decision, as he did some work with his Stomps. He was locked in combat for three turns and just did not die. He used Smash attacks to kill an Ironclad in addition to stomping all over some Marines. He also stomped a Drop Pod, although that was earlier in the game. Most of the rest of my army was killed. The only units I had left at the end of the game were the Stormsurge, the Commander, one of the Drone Net drones, and the Sky Ray. Since one of the objectives was Kill Points, I actually managed to tie the game. My opponent controlled the objectives better thanks to ObSec drop pods (that were full of IH tacticals). It was a fun game, especially with Tau stuff actually winning some close combat.
The third opponent was probably the hardest. His Ultramarine list had a CAD (with Tigurius, a 4 man Grav Cent squad, a 5-man Sternguard squad with 5 meltaguns in a pod and two drop pod tactical squads with melta/combimelta), a 3-man Librarius Conclave (that he put with the CentStar), and a Skyhammer Annihilation Force (one dev squad of 4 Multimeltas, one of 4 Gravcannons, and 2 5 man assault squads with melta bombs). He used a lot of the new Psychic powers as well, including Shifting Worldscape. Interceptor was my friend in this game, as I managed to neutralize some of the more dangerous stuff before it could do anything. My Stormsurge survived far longer than it statistically should have, as I just kept making saves. It also helped that he split fired his CentStar partly into the Ghostkeel and then I popped the Holophotons, causing the entire unit to snap fire and costing my opponent that turn's shooting (although he still managed to put one wound on the Stormsurge). In the end I lost the Stormsurge to overwatch from two MMdevs (it was on its last wound and my opponent finally got lucky). I ended up finishing this game in a tie as well, as although I had controlled the two Meat Grinder objectives for almost the entire game, I only managed to cap one Crusader objective at the end. It was a fun battle for sure!
My takeaway:
-How you play the Stormsurge should very much depend on the opposing army. In the first game it paid off to plant anchors and use the extra shooting, whereas in the other two games I played it aggressively and used the almighty stomps to good effect (his Interceptor really helped in the third game). And always take a shield generator, as it's too easy to get killed without it.
-The Optimized Stealth Cadre is just absurdly good. Yes, the Stealth teams are kind of a tax, but even they can get some teeth if they stick close to the 'keel. Ignores cover is awesome, especially if your opponent is counting on Stealth/Shrouded! +1 BS means you can use your markerlights elsewhere.
-Drone net is pretty solid. BS3 drones get a lot more markerlight hits and are much better than Pathfinders. Plus the markerlights get Interceptor, which really boosts the power of EWO.
-Take Early Warning Override on everything if possible. That ability is just nasty, as it can allow you to kill stuff before it has a chance to hurt you.
-If you know the game you're going to play has a lot of objectives, definitely consider taking a CAD instead of a Hunter Contingent/Dawn Blade. ObSec can win you games if you need to control objectives. This outweighs the benefits of the HC, especially if you use ITC rules with no special ability sharing.
Jancoran wrote: Shredder shards, the Talos are ONE unit. They should be moving AS ONE. I am not sure what you are saying here? Almost sounds like you are traeting them as two units?
We are. Are they not? The way you formatted your list made it read like they were 2 different units. Re-reading the formation, it seems that isn't possible. We'll give you them the benefit of the doubt and consolidate the 3 in with the smaller unit that rolled 6 on its run roll when we pick back up.
And there was a way to commit them to one side. the 43" mark would have been easy to reach for the Raiders. Essentially you would just spend the turn repositioning your start point, out of 43" range and then launch. So you could have and should have done that (I dont know if you're playing yourself here or not, but since we're having the discussion I think it worth pointing out). this also again would have helped you on the Power From Pain Chart. You take an awful risk here by allowing NONfearless Grotesques tofacethe whirlwind. The Ion Accelerator would be the only shot at that point and thats IF it could draw the line and thats only against one target with no markerlight support. So a LOT of this could have been fixed at deployment, really. So again, the splitting up of the Raiders is not the way to do this. I'm not getting on your case, i am just expanding for you on how better to use the Dark Eldar list for future reference. I've used this essential list a lot (I varied it somewhat for objective snaking in more ITC driven missions but this really is about it).
Cool, then it's free shots against the Talos's until you decide to commit, and you throw away the one advantage you have, which is how many things you could threaten in a turn when everything was still on the deployment zone. You wait one turn, and everything spreads. This would be a terrible way to play the army.
I disagree on your point about Fearless. You cant know what will happen in the future but what you DO know is that just getting blown OUT could force morale and that is bad.
I can tell you absolutely and factually, that not having fearless has had absolutely NO impact on the current state of the game. I know this, because I played it. Will it have an impact on the future of the game? I'm going to say "almost undoubtably not" because from this point onwards they have had Fearless regardless of whether or they wasted their first turn advantage.
Also, you specifically said NOT to do what you are saying I did wrong now.
It feels very much to me that no matter how we had played this, you were going to complain "you did it wrong". Because thats exactly what you are doing. If you had done it your way you would be assaulting 4 not 5 riptides next turn at best. Although more that likely not even that.
The artistry of any battle plan is in the adjustments and in this case you really REALLY needed to consolidate over to the strong side. More terrain to interpose, more distance to frustrate the range 30" missiles and so on. You have 72" of width to work with here so use it all.
No idea what this means. Are you saying if we play again, play longways? I think you'll find that is heavily to the benefit of the Riptides than your own army, but we can do this.
As a reminder, the discussion at hand was whether I should take my two Riptides and add one, to form a Riptide Wing. I had said that doing so was a 200 point expenditure that really tied my hands on other units I would want. I used my own experience playing Dark Eldar to illustrate the devastation i brought against other Riptide wings.
9 Riptides is probably an extreme level that most any list could struggle against (and they certainly would if they are short range and not punchy) but in order to see that clearly i think the Dark eldar in this case did themselves no favors by not attacking the strongside. Thats just my observation from having played it.
So more Riptides is a stronger list than 2 Riptides and 2 Storm Surges? Well, I guess that settles it then. You were wrong about how to play this army.
What was the mission? Just Kill Points? Or what?
ITC mission 6, as stated in the opening paragraph.
I would try this again. but it will be interesting to see how your battle progresses.
We played it out. Tau won extremely decisively. Even the Grots that did make it to CC had very little impact, doing a grand total of about 5 wounds spread between the 5 different Riptides the two Grot units managed to tackle. The ones to the left actually lost combat quite heavily to the 3 man Riptides, losing 2 just to Overwatch alone.
I think you have been playing against some really poor Tau opposition used to just grabbing their corner and keeping it, or you have been getting insanely lucky, to have a positive result against Riptides. There is absolutely no reason this should work, and playing it as smart as possible irregardless to your complaints, it's turning out much like how we all expected.
However, we might play again, and do it exactly your way, no matter how much it seems counter productive. We will hide the Raiders in a corner together, wait a turn before committing them while pushing Talos's up the field, then drop all 4 on the strongest "clump" of the army that we can find.
Will playing it like that be satisfactory? I feel like no matter what happens you are going to have some reason how we played it wrong here, but the way this went kind of confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt to me that Riptides are very much a counter to what you are doing, and your reasoning for not taking 3 of them has proved illogical here. I feel if anything is getting your win against 2x Stormsurge Tau that you are used to playing, its the fact that he has ~800 points in 2 easily tied up and killed units, rather than the 3 individual Riptide units.
Tau could have actually played this even better as well. I just don't think it was going to happen for DE here.
You did misplay it. I am not going after you. I'm just telling you. It's not a personal thing to me. it's not my game. But you were trying to get the most out of it so i am telling you how.
"Giving up" a round isnt really giving up anything. The speed of the list is more than enough to have allowed it given what I see here. Again, without the tape measure in my hand i cant really know so if you didnt want input I apolozize for offering. It apeared you did. Oh well.
You did misplay it. I am not going after you. I'm just telling you. It's not a personal thing to me. it's not my game. But you were trying to get the most out of it so i am telling you how.
"Giving up" a round isnt really giving up anything. The speed of the list is more than enough to have allowed it given what I see here. Again, without the tape measure in my hand i cant really know so if you didnt want input I apolozize for offering. It apeared you did. Oh well.
Onward and upward.
Well, I'm confident I didn't misplay it, and I've gave solid reasoning as to why. Your reasoning thus far has not made a lot of sense towards defending your argument, and has really just contradicted yourself heavily. And it seems there is really not a lot of logic to your perspective.
"Riptides are worse than other stuff because of reasons" ----------> "That list fields way too many Riptides its much harder to deal with"
"You need to be as aggressive as possible with Dark Eldar in the opening turns" ----------> "Dark Eldar lost cause they misplayed by not turtling up in one corner of the board for a turn waiting for an ability that would have literally had zero impact on the outcome of the game"
"its not at all situational and doesn't require first turn to win" --------> "DE lost because they didn't land the 1/3 chance of playing the board longways"
And that's just a couple of examples.
I think you need to stop with the nonsensical excuses and consider the very real possibility that it isn't everyone else who is wrong here.
I do think that a double riptide wing is too unbalanced FWIW. If you face things that can kill Riptides, you're done. If you don't, sad times for the other army. Call me crazy, but I'd rather not play games that are predetermined at the start of a 2 hour affair by an excess amount of spam.
DE support with Talos can work though. That CTC formation is brutal and will murder any amount of Riptides that it touches. It's also durable enough to get there.
but dude, you didn't camp up in the corner for a turn, you've drastically misplayed? seriously, don't complain about us not doing it and saying its a game-changingly bad play, if you aren't going to do it yourself. Just proves that you were reaching for excuses, if it wasn't already obvious.
What I see in that graphic is basically an ideal set-up for DE where they go first and have an impressive amount of conveniently-located LOS-blocking terrain to maneuver around. Assuming the Tau player doesn't even bother repositioning, an army-wide Hailfire is going to seriously ruin DE's day. By my count, I get a wrecked Raider and ~3 dead Grotesques per HBC Riptide. Maybe use that third HBC Riptide in the middle to clean things up a bit where you rolled poorly.
That leaves the entire right Wing to take on the Taloses. So...2 IA blasts, 32 SMS shots, and 72 HBC shots, assuming your nova reactors go off. We'll be generous and say that's good for a dead Talos, even though it's more like 5-6 wounds. Nova reactors don't always go off, and IAs suck sometimes, etc.
In other words, I count 4 Taloses with possibly a Grotesque or two and an entirely intact Tau army on the table at the end of turn 1. Maybe a riptide or two gets tied up in combat the next turn or something, but I don't think it takes a lot to see where the game is going. Can't we all just agree this is an atrocious match-up for the DE? If only they had a 280 point Pathfinder unit in reserves to come save the day.
I think it's time to move on from this Jancoran. The DE had massive advantage in ShredderShards BR and it wasn't enough. You complained about deployment and other minor irrelevant things in the first battle report given you to, but this deployment looks borderline doctored. Why did the Tau player separate his army and basically trap his 2 man Riptide unit behind Terrain that he now has to move around to escape, but convieniently leaving just enough space to give room for DE to come in and get LoS blocked from the entire rest of the army? isnt that like, the number one spot you should be denying from your opponent to position themselves in, I mean even if you didn't want to put Riptides there you have 16 marker drones? And why did the army split the Wings up in deployment, meaning the entire army is much less likely to ever ever see the +1 BS bonus for successive fire? Also means that if one half of the army has to use their nova for jump jets, the other half of the army using Hailfire is wasted potential. Why did he place the 2 man unit right next to the 3 man unit and separate it entirely from the rest of the army, putting 5 Riptides that are now unable to split to avoid assaults, in one nice little package for DE to safely assault?
None of this makes sense and it is either not accidental, or proves the caliber of the opponents you are playing against already. And of course Dark Eldar has first turn once again, because this battle is as close as you can get to an auto-loss if Tau goes first.You are still probably going to lose anyway, but its so unrealistically tilted to give you the win that to me the outcome of your match here doesn't count for anything anyway. You've been thoroughly proved wrong, just accept it and move on its like 3 pages deep of now guys.
This is a pretty typical tournament set up. Los blocker mid board plus more or less domino terrain. I put stuff more or less where he did. Skipped the craters but add em if you think it matters.
I did this to more accurately show the distances. His did not. This is before he or I have fired a shot so maybe the same outcome, maybe not.
It illustrated a lot smarter use of the force and it illustrates the point I was making, which really wasnt about Dark Eldar at all. It was about why I do or Don't go hog wild with Riptides. THIS is what Dark Eldar can do.
When you see the accurate dimensions of the models and their movement, its a lot easier to see. You can do with it what you like. Makes no difference, but it was the excuse I needed to update Java and VASSAL. It's good for just one thing: a better representation of what to do with the force.
One side note. The building was also inconvenient for the Talos. It slowed them down. In his representation he didnt even have a true los blocker which is absurd. That wont happen at the BAO I am guessing. I'LL find out soon. Im ranked top 10(currently) on the ITC site for Tau Empire. I'll report what the boards are like on my blog afterwards.
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SHUPPET wrote: I think it's time to move on from this Jancoran. The DE had massive advantage in ShredderShards BR and it wasn't enough. You complained about deployment and other minor irrelevant things in the first battle report given you to, but this deployment looks borderline doctored. Why did the Tau player separate his army and basically trap his 2 man Riptide unit behind Terrain that he now has to move around to escape, but convieniently leaving just enough space to give room for DE to come in and get LoS blocked from the entire rest of the army? isnt that like, the number one spot you should be denying from your opponent to position themselves in, I mean even if you didn't want to put Riptides there you have 16 marker drones? And why did the army split the Wings up in deployment, meaning the entire army is much less likely to ever ever see the +1 BS bonus for successive fire? Also means that if one half of the army has to use their nova for jump jets, the other half of the army using Hailfire is wasted potential. Why did he place the 2 man unit right next to the 3 man unit and separate it entirely from the rest of the army, putting 5 Riptides that are now unable to split to avoid assaults, in one nice little package for DE to safely assault?
None of this makes sense and it is either not accidental, or proves the caliber of the opponents you are playing against already. And of course Dark Eldar has first turn once again, because this battle is as close as you can get to an auto-loss if Tau goes first.You are still probably going to lose anyway, but its so unrealistically tilted to give you the win that to me the outcome of your match here doesn't count for anything anyway. You've been thoroughly proved wrong, just accept it and move on its like 3 pages deep of now guys.
This was how he had his guys. I just copied it. Put two buildings on each side, los in the middle and deployed split up just like HE HAD THEM. So whatevs.
This was how he had his guys. I just copied it. Put two buildings on each side, los in the middle and deployed split up just like HE HAD THEM. So whatevs.
Yes, because I would have deployed my guys EXACTLY THE SAME, on a completely different battlefield, against an opponent who deployed differently. Right.
Regardless, thats not even how I had them at all. To copy it so inaccurately, you had to deliberately change the 2 man unit to the left side to complete destroy army synergy, and instead of splitting the army to mess with target priority (which was the entire point of my deployment - in MY scenario) you've clustered the only multi-model Riptide units on the one side of the field, completely separated from the rest of the army. -
On top of that, I positioned my guys to have room to escape in different directions. You've positioned the 2 man unit so that no matter which way they try to Jump, they have to waste about half their move trying to navigate that terrain that you have intentionally boxed them in behind.
On top of that, I specifically said I played reactive to the terrain and my opponents deployment. If you had deployed like that on THAT battlefield, I would have played reactive to that as well. There's nothing wrong with the field itself. Just the way that you've used it to deliberately stack the cards against Tau without playing relative to the map as Tau. It's just mis-representative of actual play.
On top of that, I also said Tau could have played it better, which would mean not spreading the army so far, just lightly spread along the middle of the DZ so units are still in range to shoot key targets but bail to either side.
Also, why aren't you walling up for a turn to grab Fearless, since you complained that was such a critical mistake? I'd love to see how that actually would turn out for you.
You keep ignoring all the counters to everything you say, and just twisting logic hard to suit you. I agree with what others said, yourself included a few posts ago, lets just drop it, you were mistaken and thats all there is to it.
This was how he had his guys. I just copied it. Put two buildings on each side, los in the middle and deployed split up just like HE HAD THEM. So whatevs.
Yes, because I would have deployed my guys EXACTLY THE SAME, on a completely different battlefield, against an opponent who deployed differently. Right.
Regardless, thats not even how I had them at all. To copy it so inaccurately, you had to deliberately change the 2 man unit to the left side to complete destroy army synergy, and instead of splitting the army to mess with target priority (which was the entire point of my deployment - in MY scenario) you've clustered the only multi-model Riptide units on the one side of the field, completely separated from the rest of the army. -
On top of that, I positioned my guys to have room to escape in different directions. You've positioned the 2 man unit so that no matter which way they try to Jump, they have to waste about half their move trying to navigate that terrain that you have intentionally boxed them in behind.
On top of that, I specifically said I played reactive to the terrain and my opponents deployment. If you had deployed like that on THAT battlefield, I would have played reactive to that as well. There's nothing wrong with the field itself. Just the way that you've used it to deliberately stack the cards against Tau without playing relative to the map as Tau. It's just mis-representative of actual play.
On top of that, I also said Tau could have played it better, which would mean not spreading the army so far, just lightly spread along the middle of the DZ so units are still in range to shoot key targets but bail to either side.
Also, why aren't you walling up for a turn to grab Fearless, since you complained that was such a critical mistake? I'd love to see how that actually would turn out for you.
You keep ignoring all the counters to everything you say, and just twisting logic hard to suit you. I agree with what others said, yourself included a few posts ago, lets just drop it, you were mistaken and thats all there is to it.
The key word you ignored is "given". I said "GIVEN" what I could tell from your drawing, that's what i would have done. Once I had a real map in front of me to work from and could actually calculate roughly your starting positions and the actualized distances, i decided that there wasn't a need to wait because with a proper LOS blocker in the middle, it would make just as much sense to do it this way. Your drawing led me to one conclusion but after seeing it in a bit better scale, I was of a different mind.
As you say, GIVEN this terrain which is petty typical, you might have deployed differently. Maybe. I'm not saying different. I just showed what my first turn would look like and that was it. i didn't postulate further. So this is entirely for illustrative purposes. Your dimensions on the Riptides were so far off that I think you probably WOULD have to reconisder th exact positioning.
So deploy them differently. It doesnt matter. the essence of what I said is still true. I will say this though. The slight changes I made were because of the size of your models being so far wrong on the drawing. But it was somewhatto your advantage. The two Riptides on the left actually kind of stop me from waiting a turn. It occurred to me that you would probably want to have a chance to menace me should you go first and kind of force my hand with the left most riptides and it fit btter given the actual sizes of the models. But honestly, put em wherever you like. if you had put more on one side or the other i probably would just reverse this so it doesnt much matter, but sure. You absolutely might have done something different.
This absurd nine Riptide Example isn't going to talk me into taking a THIRD Riptide; which was...again...what this was all about.
This is for illustration purposes only. You are getting all worked up. Do it your way. But this is basically the idea right here. It's to show you what I was talking about, and if you read any more into it, you're just being salty at that point.
The Wolfstars and some other forces like White Scars (all ones I mentioned earlier) have convinced me that I need to be cautious of letting them have too much in one bite.
The distances are actual in this case. It definitely changd things to see that aspect. I respect your right to do it whatever way you want. Do it.
Here's a bit closer deployment to what you shoed but as you can see, you are awfully close together. Nonetheless, here's aln alternative image for an alternative outcome if you did change it more to that.
This absurd nine Riptide Example isn't going to talk me into taking a THIRD Riptide; which was...again...what this was all about.
Nope. No it wasn't. I've seen you around here, trying to convince you of anything logical is not an endeavor I'm willing to undertake. The point of this was to test your theoretical statements in play, to dispel any misinformation that may be left otherwise floating around. This has been done quite sufficiently.
Jancoran wrote: This is for illustration purposes only. You are getting all worked up. Do it your way. But this is basically the idea right here. It's to show you what I was talking about, and if you read any more into it, you're just being salty at that point.
No, no I'm not. I've calmly and rationally pointed towards the holes in the statements you've made, and now I'm agreeing with the consensus that pages later, we should move on from this. Not because I'm salty, but because discussion of this example has well and truly run its course, so please let's move on so everyone doesn't have to hear anymore about it.
Nope. No it wasn't. I've seen you around here, trying to convince you of anything logical is not an endeavor I'm willing to undertake. The point of this was to test your theoretical statements in play, to dispel any misinformation that may be left otherwise floating around. This has been done quite sufficiently.
... I've calmly and rationally pointed towards the holes in the statements you've made, and now I'm agreeing with the consensus that pages later, we should move on from this. Not because I'm salty, but because discussion of this example has well and truly run its course, so please let's move on so everyone doesn't have to hear anymore about it.
I am sure that sort of thing flies elsewhere, but I've provided examples of the method. You can see in all of them the box, the inevitable movement decisions the Riptides have to make and the threat is real. There will be losses for the Dark Eldar, as there should be against such a huge threat. But this is only turn one and nary a shot fired! Already you worry and toss and turn about it because you know you're going to lose some Riptides here and it's not going to be the easy victory YOU playing YOURSELF anticipate (the fun part of this is that you thought that would provide you a meaningful answer). I'm unwilling to go further into the game here or guess what will happen in THIS game but it just really illustrates the means by which I might reasonably make even this list work for its supper. I can say that the previous meetings against the Riptide Wing were quite successful. Against nine? Much tougher.
As a Tau General, i take these kinds of armies more seriously than you do and I accord more respect to it than you do. That is why I do well. I don't try to find the way in which the enemy would fail. I try to find the way in which the enemy will succeed. If you don't allow for that in your thinking, you will find yourself elsewhere while the top table is going on. If you do accord it the respect it deserves, then I think you should do less seeking for moral high ground and more acknowledgement of the possibilities. Negative thinking isn't winning thinking.
You really had a golden opportunity to let that one go, man. Instead, the fight mechanism kicked in again, and we got to hear for the umpteenth time how skilled of a Tau general you are. Tau vs Haemoculus Covens is a match I've played many, many times, and it always ends in varying degrees of awfulness for DE. That was before Tau took steroids with their new book and got a ton of new toys to play with, too. It's a shame you get so caught up in these arguments, because you do often have a unique and valuable perspective on the game and how it is played. I don't think anyone doubts you're at least decent at the game, but if you're going to try and assert authority through that route, you probably should provide stronger evidence than a top 10 ITC rating for Tau (which, as far as I can tell, requires simply showing up to more than 1 event - which you have, as I recall) and that atrocious Eldar list you apparently dominated with Pathfinders awhile back. That's not convincing anyone. Seriously, man, we're all glad you love Stealth Suits and Vespids and heinously expensive Pathfinder units, but give it a rest so we can move on to something else.
...such as the viability of all-Riptide armies. I floated the idea awhile ago, and the consensus seemed to be that the list is going to be a rock to someone else's scissors...or their paper. I can definitely see how you would have issues taking down IK- or Wraithknight-heavy lists, and that seems to be a large percentage of the top-tier competitive population these days. Do you think you could manage enough collateral damage to pull out wins vs these armies?
The need to toot your own horn and whatever accomplishments you think you have that I do not care about, in lieu of actually being able to reason your way through a tactica discussion, just detracts from your argument rather than adds to it, at least where I'm from.
So if you guys are done arguing, I would really appreciate some help with Tactics for my Tau. I traded my IG for a Tau army before the new book was released and it will be a bit before I can purchase new models. Thus I have no Stormsruges or Ghostkeels(I don't want them anyway, the Stormsurgeses. Ghostkeels seem cool). So I'm left with my lists to play with 2 Riptides, 3 plasma suits, 2 fusion suits, and a forgeworld guy with plasma.
I have plenty of marker drones, firewarriors, no kroot(I hate kroot) 15 Stealth suits, 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. Any suggestions on how to kit my guys, especially for internet Grey Knights lists with 2 Dreadknights and all 2+ armorI've been fighting?
Moving on from this argument but on a related note, I've been looking at 9 Riptides for a while myself.
Does anyone have any opinion on how to do them? ITC rules, so only 3 detachments.
Personally I don't like clustering Riptides into multiple units so I'm playing with taking 3 Wings as my entire detachments. As far as upgrades go, I was looking at taking 1x shield drone on each, for a total of 9 drones and 9 Riptides, to lessen the blow of grav, because nothing else seems too remarkable. Counterfire is sick but at the end of the day it even if you overwatch down half the squad, if they make it to combat your Riptide is out of the game anyway, so it seems kinda situational. The problem is, Shield drones slow down the boost move which is so key to the army.
EWO seems nice but situational, might use it to fill up any extra points though. Taking FNP is pointless unless you can grab it on everyone, because they are likely just going to focus the ones who don't have it.
A big part of me is thinking of just taking 10 Riptides instead (1x 2man unit), putting EWO on 4 of them, VT on 1 of them, and Split Fire on the one unit of 2. 1850 points, bam. Who needs markers
So this is what I would do as the tau player here.
Assumptions... left two riptides A, B are single.. then C3 (unit of 3) then D, E, F2 ....ABC is one wing.. DEF is the second. Also rip squads have target locks.
Movement: Move A and B down and right so that they can still have visual of those two left raiders. Move left markerlights up and screen in front of the riptides to cut off that charge vector. Move C back and flatten. Move markers up in front of them to screen. Hailfire wing DEF. move right two squads of markers forward to screen.
Shooting: Markers on left each hit raiders, all the right markers target the Talos. Rip A and B fire into left raiders.. should be two easy kills. Possible explode, but who knows, dudes drop out (now stuck moving 6"). C3 Target the two center raiders and the talos.. should be another two down raiders, again leaving the guys walking.
DEF shooting 1: D fires ion over at the center units that were left out of the raiders. E fires at the talos. F2 fires at the talos... and repeat for second wave.
Assaulting: ABC assault jump right towards the right and the hailfired wing. left and center marker drones assault jump to screen ABC from any potential charges. Assault jump the right marker squads into full screen position of the talos.
That's it. Right here, the game is pretty much over. the raider units are for the most part ignorable, as they can be kited until the talos is done (if they are not already wiped). That one wing hailfire put out 144 rending rounds (assuming nova went off.. more then likely) Very little can survive that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So if you guys are done arguing, I would really appreciate some help with Tactics for my Tau. I traded my IG for a Tau army before the new book was released and it will be a bit before I can purchase new models. Thus I have no Stormsruges or Ghostkeels(I don't want them anyway, the SG's). So I'm left with my lists to play with 2 Riptides, 3 plasma suits, 2 fusion suits, and a forgeworld guy with plasma.
I have plenty of marker drones, firewarriors, no kroot(I hate kroot), 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. Any suggestions on how to kit my guys, especially for internet Grey Knights lists with 2 Dreadknights and all 2+ armorI've been fighting?
So you can field some decent lists. Personally I would look at the Hunter contingent given the models you have available. I love fielding plasma crisis teams, they are super effective. Fusion suits are also great at taking on TEQ and Armor threats. I don't know your meta.. I don't want to give advice for "take x to beat y army"... necessarily.. but that does not mean you can't be prepared for it.
That can be your core to work around, you can make it work in Hunter Contingent/Dawn Blade, or CAD detachments. Fill in firewarriors as needed to get your shot count up. If you want to play a little more diverse.. take out the fusion crisis teams, and run 2 hammerheads instead (not as good always.. also more points.. but not spammy).
9 riptides isn't at all absurd. It's actually extremely strong.
I don't doubt that it's decent, but you need some form of marker light support. I absolutely do not think that 9 riptides in 3 riptide wings is a top tier build. It can curb stomp some weaker armies, but without marker light support you really are just up a creek. Try it against a Ravenwing army and let me know how many minutes you last.
9 riptides isn't at all absurd. It's actually extremely strong.
I don't doubt that it's decent, but you need some form of marker light support. I absolutely do not think that 9 riptides in 3 riptide wings is a top tier build. It can curb stomp some weaker armies, but without marker light support you really are just up a creek. Try it against a Ravenwing army and let me know how many minutes you last.
true, my other build looks like ShreddersShards's, 16 marker lights... but I don't like clumping up multiple Riptides into one unit. I think 10 Riptides at least has the weight of fire to maybe deal with Ravenwing, if not might just have to accept that the build needs to have some losing match-ups to be able to have many other awesome match ups, because 6 riptides in just 2 units or whatever is a massive liability.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So if you guys are done arguing, I would really appreciate some help with Tactics for my Tau. I traded my IG for a Tau army before the new book was released and it will be a bit before I can purchase new models. Thus I have no Stormsruges or Ghostkeels(I don't want them anyway, the SG's). So I'm left with my lists to play with 2 Riptides, 3 plasma suits, 2 fusion suits, and a forgeworld guy with plasma.
I have plenty of marker drones, firewarriors, no kroot(I hate kroot), 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. Any suggestions on how to kit my guys, especially for internet Grey Knights lists with 2 Dreadknights and all 2+ armorI've been fighting?
So you can field some decent lists. Personally I would look at the Hunter contingent given the models you have available. I love fielding plasma crisis teams, they are super effective. Fusion suits are also great at taking on TEQ and Armor threats. I don't know your meta.. I don't want to give advice for "take x to beat y army"... necessarily.. but that does not mean you can't be prepared for it.
That can be your core to work around, you can make it work in Hunter Contingent/Dawn Blade, or CAD detachments. Fill in firewarriors as needed to get your shot count up. If you want to play a little more diverse.. take out the fusion crisis teams, and run 2 hammerheads instead (not as good always.. also more points.. but not spammy).
So I'm confused on one note on your point. Aren't those all in the same slot for the CAD/Hunter Contingent/DBC and I can only take 1-3 units? That would be 5 individual units wouldn't it?
9 riptides isn't at all absurd. It's actually extremely strong.
I don't doubt that it's decent, but you need some form of marker light support. I absolutely do not think that 9 riptides in 3 riptide wings is a top tier build. It can curb stomp some weaker armies, but without marker light support you really are just up a creek. Try it against a Ravenwing army and let me know how many minutes you last.
true, my other build looks like ShreddersShards's, 16 marker lights... but I don't like clumping up multiple Riptides into one unit. I think 10 Riptides at least has the weight of fire to maybe deal with Ravenwing, if not might just have to accept that the build needs to have some losing match-ups to be able to have many other awesome match ups, because 6 riptides in just 2 units or whatever is a massive liability.
A guy ran 10 riptides at Adepticon and didn't do well. Problem is objectives, and GMCs. Wraithknights just dont care about riptide weapons unfortunately.
As for running a wing.. if your going to run riptides in a wing, its beneficial to run x3 x1 x1.. I would run 2 wings of that in 10 riptides (if that is what i wanted)... why? Because the unit of 3 has +1 BS for fireteam, and can still split fire via target locks. Remember you don't really need markerlights for +BS because you can cross fire your riptides at larger units to up their BS through the formation.
Ravenwing would be one of the papers to your rock lists.. that is just how it is.
MilkmanAl wrote: You really had a golden opportunity to let that one go, man. Instead, the fight mechanism kicked in again, and we got to hear for the umpteenth time how skilled of a Tau general you are.
... and that atrocious Eldar list you apparently dominated with Pathfinders awhile back. That's not convincing anyone. Seriously, man, we're all glad you love Stealth Suits and Vespids and heinously expensive Pathfinder units, but give it a rest so we can move on to something else.
...Do you think you could manage enough collateral damage to pull out wins vs these armies?
Shoot. I missed my golden opportunity? Dang it.
What I did was give THREE visual presentations to the correct way to take the Riptide on, given three different variantion on his deployment. Thats what *I* did. what he did is use crayons, out of proportion representations of the models and an improbably unlikely setup and then claimed victory by playing himself. hehehe.
That I dont let people with stinking thinking come at me unchallenged is not strange. Anyone whose response to a legitimate threat is "psh" is asking for it. The level of disrespect Dakkadakka people show towards one another's ideas is amusing but ultimately it isn't helpful or instructional.
We saw in Lictorshame and in other metabreaker type of lists that they can win major events and I am QUITE certain none of those Generals much cared whether you thought it would work or not. They had already seen the potential in their practice games and they decided to go for it. Yay them. For once someone having the courage to tell online personalities where to stick it.
As for taking on top tier armies, Dark Eldar are distressed. i have repeatedly in this thread suggested that the outcome might very well be as poor for the Dark eldar as he says, I didn't close my mind off to that possibility at all. But he has to be intellectually honest about it by allowing for the Dark Eldar player in his scenario not to be a moron. Lol. I showed what one would do if one was not a moron and moved the Dark Eldar. Same board, three different Tau setups.
But ironically...again... this wasn't about Dark Eldar. This was about me explaining how i had demolished three Riptide Wing forces I faced using Dark Eldar, which became a cautionary tale for ME as a Tau General not to necessarily over commit to more Riptides. He took this reasoning and carried it out to the nth degree to...apparently..."prove" that what happened, didn't happen using a list that was in no way similar? I guess? Lol. And so I engaged in it in good faith, told him how to make the Dark Eldar ist, how to use it. And that is how we ended up here. He turned a simple point into a sidebar discussion about Dark Eldar vs. NINE Riptides, which wasn't the point of the statement I originally made in any way shape or form. We call that moving goalposts in a discussion.
Anyways, I had fun playing with the mapping software and finally figuring out how to post stuff like this so if nothing else i can now better explain a point visually for those who need it. There's a win.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So if you guys are done arguing, I would really appreciate some help with Tactics for my Tau. I traded my IG for a Tau army before the new book was released and it will be a bit before I can purchase new models. Thus I have no Stormsruges or Ghostkeels(I don't want them anyway, the SG's). So I'm left with my lists to play with 2 Riptides, 3 plasma suits, 2 fusion suits, and a forgeworld guy with plasma.
I have plenty of marker drones, firewarriors, no kroot(I hate kroot), 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. Any suggestions on how to kit my guys, especially for internet Grey Knights lists with 2 Dreadknights and all 2+ armorI've been fighting?
So you can field some decent lists. Personally I would look at the Hunter contingent given the models you have available. I love fielding plasma crisis teams, they are super effective. Fusion suits are also great at taking on TEQ and Armor threats. I don't know your meta.. I don't want to give advice for "take x to beat y army"... necessarily.. but that does not mean you can't be prepared for it.
That can be your core to work around, you can make it work in Hunter Contingent/Dawn Blade, or CAD detachments. Fill in firewarriors as needed to get your shot count up. If you want to play a little more diverse.. take out the fusion crisis teams, and run 2 hammerheads instead (not as good always.. also more points.. but not spammy).
So I'm confused on one note on your point. Aren't those all in the same slot for the CAD/Hunter Contingent/DBC and I can only take 1-3 units? That would be 5 individual units wouldn't it?
Fair question. So say you were doing a CAD. You can run it as an Farsight Enclaves Detachment and take your crisis suits as troops.
If you were specifically running the Hunter Contingent given your models I would run..
Crisis Plasma Team
Ion Riptide
Ion Riptide
But that can be added or subtracted based on your point size. I ALWAYS run a squad of dual plasma crisis suits, they are just too good. =D
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So if you guys are done arguing, I would really appreciate some help with Tactics for my Tau. I traded my IG for a Tau army before the new book was released and it will be a bit before I can purchase new models. Thus I have no Stormsruges or Ghostkeels(I don't want them anyway, the SG's). So I'm left with my lists to play with 2 Riptides, 3 plasma suits, 2 fusion suits, and a forgeworld guy with plasma.
I have plenty of marker drones, firewarriors, no kroot(I hate kroot), 3 hammerheads and 3 devilfish. Any suggestions on how to kit my guys, especially for internet Grey Knights lists with 2 Dreadknights and all 2+ armorI've been fighting?
So you can field some decent lists. Personally I would look at the Hunter contingent given the models you have available. I love fielding plasma crisis teams, they are super effective. Fusion suits are also great at taking on TEQ and Armor threats. I don't know your meta.. I don't want to give advice for "take x to beat y army"... necessarily.. but that does not mean you can't be prepared for it.
That can be your core to work around, you can make it work in Hunter Contingent/Dawn Blade, or CAD detachments. Fill in firewarriors as needed to get your shot count up. If you want to play a little more diverse.. take out the fusion crisis teams, and run 2 hammerheads instead (not as good always.. also more points.. but not spammy).
So I'm confused on one note on your point. Aren't those all in the same slot for the CAD/Hunter Contingent/DBC and I can only take 1-3 units? That would be 5 individual units wouldn't it?
Fair question. So say you were doing a CAD. You can run it as an Farsight Enclaves Detachment and take your crisis suits as troops.
If you were specifically running the Hunter Contingent given your models I would run..
Crisis Plasma Team
Ion Riptide
Ion Riptide
But that can be added or subtracted based on your point size. I ALWAYS run a squad of dual plasma crisis suits, they are just too good. =D
Got it, thanks a bunch. I'm of the same mindset. I love plasma! I plan on buying a third Riptide so I can do a Riptide Wing and then just run crises & stealth suits without the limitation concern from Riptides. I was going to use the new Breacher teams in devilfish but... they seem a bit cost restrictive.
Jancoran wrote: ..About your not wanting to run a third riptide for a wing ..
So I been thinking of how to explain why i think it would benefit you to run this. I don't know your list off hand but I imagine your running 2 solo Ions with Stims? I am just going to assume that right now
So right now your sitting at 440 points. Let's drop the Stims, and add a third riptide. 555 points (assuming Ion again), only 115 points more then what you were already paying, and what did you gain? Reroll Nova, Cascading fire, Hailfire.
For no tax and 115 extra points you gained some amazing abilities, that I think makes those 115 points back easily.
Me personally I run Heavy Burst Cannons, but that is my taste. Either way, your sitting pretty with a scary unit. So you have this scary unit throwing pie plates for days and meanwhile you have all your outflanking business grabbing backfield objectives and being ignored because the focus is on this center highly offensive unit.
If the opponent rushes them with all these powerful CC units, or focuses all their good shooting on them, that is good for the rest of your army, because your pathfinders can't hold up to the beating that these boys can.
I think right now, if your running 2 riptides, its silly not to run 3 in a wing for the extra buffs they get.
Got it, thanks a bunch. I'm of the same mindset. I love plasma! I plan on buying a third Riptide so I can do a Riptide Wing and then just run crises & stealth suits without the limitation concern from Riptides. I was going to use the new Breacher teams in devilfish but... they seem a bit cost restrictive.
Breachers are great, the problem is their movement. Running them in devilfish is required. Unfortunately that means that your looking at a ~200 point unit minimum. When I run them I like teams of 8 (just my preference). The Hunter Cadre run+shoot is nice cause it helps get them into that 6/3 profile range. Just make sure they have support nearby. They are still fire warriors and ap4 is not great for survival!
I know you don't want ghostkeel, but they are pretty amazing too. And the ghostkeel wing can add some really nice army survival through their stealth bubbles.
MilkmanAl wrote: You really had a golden opportunity to let that one go, man. Instead, the fight mechanism kicked in again, and we got to hear for the umpteenth time how skilled of a Tau general you are. ... and that atrocious Eldar list you apparently dominated with Pathfinders awhile back. That's not convincing anyone. Seriously, man, we're all glad you love Stealth Suits and Vespids and heinously expensive Pathfinder units, but give it a rest so we can move on to something else.
...Do you think you could manage enough collateral damage to pull out wins vs these armies?
Shoot. I missed my golden opportunity? Dang it.
What I did was give THREE visual presentations to the correct way to take the Riptide on, given three different variantion on his deployment. Thats what *I* did. what he did is use crayons, out of proportion representations of the models and an improbably unlikely setup and then claimed victory by playing himself. hehehe.
That I dont let people with stinking thinking come at me unchallenged is not strange. Anyone whose response to a legitimate threat is "psh" is asking for it. The level of disrespect Dakkadakka people show towards one another's ideas is amusing but ultimately it isn't helpful or instructional.
We saw in Lictorshame and in other metabreaker type of lists that they can win major events and I am QUITE certain none of those Generals much cared whether you thought it would work or not. They had already seen the potential in their practice games and they decided to go for it. Yay them. For once someone having the courage to tell online personalities where to stick it.
As for taking on top tier armies, Dark Eldar are distressed. i have repeatedly in this thread suggested that the outcome might very well be as poor for the Dark eldar as he says, I didn't close my mind off to that possibility at all. But he has to be intellectually honest about it by allowing for the Dark Eldar player in his scenario not to be a moron. Lol. I showed what one would do if one was not a moron and moved the Dark Eldar. Same board, three different Tau setups.
But ironically...again... this wasn't about Dark Eldar. This was about me explaining how i had demolished three Riptide Wing forces I faced using Dark Eldar, which became a cautionary tale for ME as a Tau General not to necessarily over commit to more Riptides. He took this reasoning and carried it out to the nth degree to...apparently..."prove" that what happened, didn't happen using a list that was in no way similar? I guess? Lol. And so I engaged in it in good faith, told him how to make the Dark Eldar ist, how to use it. And that is how we ended up here. He turned a simple point into a sidebar discussion about Dark Eldar vs. NINE Riptides, which wasn't the point of the statement I originally made in any way shape or form. We call that moving goalposts in a discussion.
Anyways, I had fun playing with the mapping software and finally figuring out how to post stuff like this so if nothing else i can now better explain a point visually for those who need it. There's a win.
Wow dude you need to stop.
I didn't "disrespect your ideas" in any way, I countered it with logical reasoning and explained why I disagreed. If you find this disrespectful, you need to move out of your safespace, or not bother posting opinions if you can't handle any counter responses.
Yes, my diagram was massively out of proportion - its ridiculous that you are still whining about this. I literally spent over an hour just making those 2 pics as a visual representation, and said multiple times they are not made accurately. Most Battle reports do not even go to the extent of effort that I did for this, you have absolutely no reason to complain here, I now regret making the pictures up to begin with.
The only thing "improbable" you've been able to point at with my set-up was the number of Riptides, yet since then there has been multiple people discussing 9 Riptide builds and even someone who took 10 Riptides at Adepticon. So once again, you are indisputably wrong. Also, the entire test of this army was the strength of Riptide Wings against your list that supposedly eats them for breakfast, which it quite resoundingly did not.
No, I didn't play by myself - I played with a very real opponent, using a combination of both our collections, and some size equivalent proxys models to play out this battle. We went to a lot of effort to make it as such, this is no problem because we had fun playing out the match and intend to do it for further conflicts relevant opinions relevant to our armies - however, next time we would appreciate a scenario a little less stupidly one-sided.
The only one moving the goalposts is you, multiple times, on practically every statement you've made, and this has been absolutely cemented with each further response.
And for someone talking about people disrespecting other peoples skill and opinions, you are being awful liberal with the use of the word moron to describe the dark eldar player who's plays you disagree with, especially when a.) its you who was wrong b.) the person you are debating has been polite and calm about the whole thing.
After my last post I'd told myself I wasn't going to reply to you anymore, but seriously this post was just too provocative to ignore. Just do everyone a favour, and please just drop it, nobody wants to continue this idiotic "debate" that no longer even counts as one at this point and I don't want to continue being made a part of it. You are the equivalent of a lawyer still yammering on to jury, after the defendant has already been tried, found guilty, and executed. The verdict is already out on this one. Lets just move on for everyone's sake. Please.
I'm on board with what you guys are saying about the all-Riptide force. These days, a Marker Drone Net just makes too much sense to not take, especially when you have a unit of models each dumping out 16 shots (HBC+SMS) per turn. That's basically mandatory, in my eyes. I also agree with Grizzy that you should maximize the amount of 3-man units to take advantage of Fire Team since, as above, +1 BS makes a hell of a difference for the shot volume you have.
On the flipside, I think the HBC is a bit over-valued on this board. While it's no doubt an excellent weapon in the grand scheme of things, I find that it actually have a fairly narrow therapeutic range, to borrow a pharmaceutical term. That is, you tend to either overkill the living sh*t out of something or struggle to do anything against it. Take the Knights and Wraithlords I mentioned earlier for example. You're basically just praying for rends against them. On the other hand, the MSU that seem to be everywhere these days will be pushing daisies before you're half done rolling dice.
The huge drawback to HBCs, in my opinion, is that they obligate you to use your nova on the main gun. 8 S6 AP4 shots from a 180pt model isn't scaring anyone, considering you can more or less get that from a Crisis suit these days. Statistically speaking, 3++ is better than 5++/5+++, so you can end up saving yourself a lot of points on stims by using your nova that way. When you Hailfire, it's also nice to have your SMS/fusion go ballistic, though you can certainly argue that 8 extra HBC shots is comparable to 8 extra SMS shots.
IA have the nice benefit of being nova-independent, so those Tides are more mobile, more durable, or more killy, depending on what you need. Rends are nice, but accept no substitute for the IA blast when you're trying to gun down Ravenwing, Centurions, or Thunderwolves (the latter to a lesser extent due to the prevalence of stormshields, but meh).
What to do with the extra 80 pts? I'm not really sure. Maybe an inquisitor or some extra stims or VTs or something. Take off some upgrades for a Culexus? Go wild.
Alternatively, it might be worth taking the army ShredderShard used above in one Wing with 3x3 upgradeless HBC Riptides that all get Fire Team. That would be pretty intense, but speaking of overkilling things, without TL...damn. You're going to be dumping a ridiculous amount of fire into things.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm on board with what you guys are saying about the all-Riptide force. These days, a Marker Drone Net just makes too much sense to not take, especially when you have a unit of models each dumping out 16 shots (HBC+SMS) per turn. That's basically mandatory, in my eyes. I also agree with Grizzy that you should maximize the amount of 3-man units to take advantage of Fire Team since, as above, +1 BS makes a hell of a difference for the shot volume you have.
On the flipside, I think the HBC is a bit over-valued on this board. While it's no doubt an excellent weapon in the grand scheme of things, I find that it actually have a fairly narrow therapeutic range, to borrow a pharmaceutical term. That is, you tend to either overkill the living sh*t out of something or struggle to do anything against it. Take the Knights and Wraithlords I mentioned earlier for example. You're basically just praying for rends against them. On the other hand, the MSU that seem to be everywhere these days will be pushing daisies before you're half done rolling dice.
The huge drawback to HBCs, in my opinion, is that they obligate you to use your nova on the main gun. 8 S6 AP4 shots from a 180pt model isn't scaring anyone, considering you can more or less get that from a Crisis suit these days. Statistically speaking, 3++ is better than 5++/5+++, so you can end up saving yourself a lot of points on stims by using your nova that way. When you Hailfire, it's also nice to have your SMS/fusion go ballistic, though you can certainly argue that 8 extra HBC shots is comparable to 8 extra SMS shots.
IA have the nice benefit of being nova-independent, so those Tides are more mobile, more durable, or more killy, depending on what you need. Rends are nice, but accept no substitute for the IA blast when you're trying to gun down Ravenwing, Centurions, or Thunderwolves (the latter to a lesser extent due to the prevalence of stormshields, but meh).
What to do with the extra 80 pts? I'm not really sure. Maybe an inquisitor or some extra stims or VTs or something. Take off some upgrades for a Culexus? Go wild.
Alternatively, it might be worth taking the army ShredderShard used above in one Wing with 3x3 upgradeless HBC Riptides that all get Fire Team. That would be pretty intense, but speaking of overkilling things, without TL...damn. You're going to be dumping a ridiculous amount of fire into things.
you have no scoring like that though, i think its maybe worth losing some +1 BS for Fire Team, in return for 3 extra scoring units. In fact, the fact is there is so much fast tackle in current 40k, and your opponent IS often enough going to be able to tarpit one or two the units of their choice. A bunch of big units is a big liability. But maybe you are right. I am in no way sold on my way of building the list, I actually copied it myself.
One thing I will say is that I dont think Wraithknights are that hard to bring down, and HBCs deal with them better than the alternative do anyway. Theres a lot of Rend potential with Hailfire and the like.
I'm on board with what you guys are saying about the all-Riptide force. These days, a Marker Drone Net just makes too much sense to not take, especially when you have a unit of models each dumping out 16 shots (HBC+SMS) per turn. That's basically mandatory, in my eyes. I also agree with Grizzy that you should maximize the amount of 3-man units to take advantage of Fire Team since, as above, +1 BS makes a hell of a difference for the shot volume you have.
On the flipside, I think the HBC is a bit over-valued on this board. While it's no doubt an excellent weapon in the grand scheme of things, I find that it actually have a fairly narrow therapeutic range, to borrow a pharmaceutical term. That is, you tend to either overkill the living sh*t out of something or struggle to do anything against it. Take the Knights and Wraithlords I mentioned earlier for example. You're basically just praying for rends against them. On the other hand, the MSU that seem to be everywhere these days will be pushing daisies before you're half done rolling dice.
The huge drawback to HBCs, in my opinion, is that they obligate you to use your nova on the main gun. 8 S6 AP4 shots from a 180pt model isn't scaring anyone, considering you can more or less get that from a Crisis suit these days. Statistically speaking, 3++ is better than 5++/5+++, so you can end up saving yourself a lot of points on stims by using your nova that way. When you Hailfire, it's also nice to have your SMS/fusion go ballistic, though you can certainly argue that 8 extra HBC shots is comparable to 8 extra SMS shots.
IA have the nice benefit of being nova-independent, so those Tides are more mobile, more durable, or more killy, depending on what you need. Rends are nice, but accept no substitute for the IA blast when you're trying to gun down Ravenwing, Centurions, or Thunderwolves (the latter to a lesser extent due to the prevalence of stormshields, but meh).
What to do with the extra 80 pts? I'm not really sure. Maybe an inquisitor or some extra stims or VTs or something. Take off some upgrades for a Culexus? Go wild.
Alternatively, it might be worth taking the army ShredderShard used above in one Wing with 3x3 upgradeless HBC Riptides that all get Fire Team. That would be pretty intense, but speaking of overkilling things, without TL...damn. You're going to be dumping a ridiculous amount of fire into things.
Given that list. I would run inquisitor and skullz. That way you limit the scout moves and infiltrate on yourself. Also..if your run 2+ riptides in a unit, you are taking TLs. That is not a question. Remember 1 riptide in a unit cannot have it to work.
On the HBCs... I think Ion is the exact same, I am either barely doing damage, or i just wiped out an entire squad. Believe it or not, and math does show, the HBC nova'd does more damage against AV targets then the Ion does (of any profile).
What is crazy I just though i should say. I was doing math against fleshhounds, because I run a wing of 3 HBCs myself, and was trying to figure out which is better nova the HBC or the SMS. And turns out the HBC, because of the s6. wounding a MEQ unit on 2s is hugeee . Plus your nova'd HBC works in overwatch where you ripplefire does not. So you get those extra shots in.
i said it before, but that was a few pages back my wing is as follows: 3x heavy burst cannons, SMS, counter fire, early warning. Its cheap, throws dice, and is brutal in overwatch too.
i said it before, but that was a few pages back my wing is as follows: 3x heavy burst cannons, SMS, counter fire, early warning. Its cheap, throws dice, and is brutal in overwatch too.
hey man, how useful do you find the counterfire? Has it ever saved a Riptide from assault? How often does it make enough of an impact to stop a Riptide getting tarpitted? I'm considering it too just wondering how practical it is, or is it just something you take because its cheap as chips and nice when it works?
i said it before, but that was a few pages back my wing is as follows: 3x heavy burst cannons, SMS, counter fire, early warning. Its cheap, throws dice, and is brutal in overwatch too.
hey man, how useful do you find the counterfire? Has it ever saved a Riptide from assault? How often does it make enough of an impact to stop a Riptide getting tarpitted? I'm considering it too just wondering how practical it is, or is it just something you take because its cheap as chips and nice when it works?
I run it on everything now i will be honest. All my ghostkeel have EWO and Counterfire.. riptides I stopped running stims, and now all take counterfire.
Especially for the wing I find it super useful. remember supporting overwatch is within 6" which you are going to be in anyway for the nova reroll. Lets just look at the math..
36 s6 shots -> 12 hits (compared to 6)
12 TL s5 shots (SMS for me) -> 6-7 hits (compared to 3-4)
The more hits means the more wounds.. I can't really say whether or not I would have lost a game without it.. but I have wiped maulerfiends out in overwatch. And chances are I would have lost a riptide on that one lol!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should also state.. if you have markerlights near by.. that 1 markerlight that hit now even better!
So I been thinking of how to explain why i think it would benefit you to run this. I don't know your list off hand but I imagine your running 2 solo Ions with Stims? I am just going to assume that right now
So right now your sitting at 440 points. Let's drop the Stims, and add a third riptide. 555 points (assuming Ion again), only 115 points more then what you were already paying, and what did you gain? Reroll Nova, Cascading fire, Hailfire.
For no tax and 115 extra points you gained some amazing abilities, that I think makes those 115 points back easily.
Me personally I run Heavy Burst Cannons, but that is my taste. Either way, your sitting pretty with a scary unit. So you have this scary unit throwing pie plates for days and meanwhile you have all your outflanking business grabbing backfield objectives and being ignored because the focus is on this center highly offensive unit.
If the opponent rushes them with all these powerful CC units, or focuses all their good shooting on them, that is good for the rest of your army, because your pathfinders can't hold up to the beating that these boys can.
I think right now, if your running 2 riptides, its silly not to run 3 in a wing for the extra buffs they get.
Anyway my 2cents.
Thanks. And thanks for the constructive tone in this one. Yes I run two as solo. I don't use Stims on the Riptides currently though, so that wouldn't be an area for points savings. So mine are a bit cheaper for what its worth. My list was listed earlier, but here it is again:
I am very aware of the third Riptide and what it brings. I am. I read the same book you all do. In the current list, there aren't points of it. I know that it would be good. It isn't better than the Ghostkeel Formation i might have to give up nor the Infiltration Cadre I would have to give up! That was my point in the beginning if all this: That something is super awesome isn't a reason to kind of blow up the rest of your concept for.
At 1850 I lose a Ghostkeel which is fine. Almost everything in the list is mandatory. Possible cuts include the Pathfinder units sizes (but those are intentional to get the free missiles), or slimming down the Stealthsuits (but they are quite the bullt hoses and are really effective with a Commander attached to one of them). Another possibility is the Gunrig, though its mobile cover and firepower are a lot cheaper than the Riptide (also much easier to kill) but at half the price... Still, the Gunrig would certainly be expendable if I took a third Riptide.
So to take the third Riptide here I would maybe drop a Gunrig (but man, a Land Raiders in a Wulfen lists is a thing that is very scary and that Gunrig is one of the few answers...) for 85 points and then like three Stealthsuits from the optimized Stealth Cadre (which would kind of hurt because they put out a ton more volume of fire over time than even the Riptide does, albeit they dont have the big cannon the Riptide does!). I mean that wouldn't be an unacceptable change there. It does make those Stealthsuits awfully easy to delete and in malestrom, killing a Unit comes up a lot as an objective. I think the ability to take objectives is the same sicne both can DS and both can JSJ, but the Stealthsuits add a dimension by infiltrating and that has been a valuable asset too. Given that in this list, the Riptide will likely be Deep Striking, the Infiltration ability then makes for a pretty attractive early game tool.
As you can see, there is a real tradeoff there. Give up some pretty good volume of fire in order to get more qualitative fire and risk losing units easier (and therefore maelstrom points) while ablating enemy fire less. OOOOR make it harder to kill units in general and accept a slight downgrade in firepower for that fortitude plus add infiltration with a pretty scary bullethose to the toolbag?
I didn't "disrespect your ideas" in any way, I countered it with logical reasoning and explained why I disagreed. If you find this disrespectful, you need to move out of your safespace, or not bother posting opinions if you can't handle any counter responses.
Yes, my diagram was massively out of proportion - its ridiculous that you are still whining about this. I literally spent over an hour just making those 2 pics as a visual representation, and said multiple times they are not made accurately. Most Battle reports do not even go to the extent of effort that I did for this, you have absolutely no reason to complain here, I now regret making the pictures up to begin with.
The only thing "improbable" you've been able to point at with my set-up was the number of Riptides, yet since then there has been multiple people discussing 9 Riptide builds and even someone who took 10 Riptides at Adepticon. So once again, you are indisputably wrong. Also, the entire test of this army was the strength of Riptide Wings against your list that supposedly eats them for breakfast, which it quite resoundingly did not.
No, I didn't play by myself - I played with a very real opponent, using a combination of both our collections, and some size equivalent proxys models to play out this battle. We went to a lot of effort to make it as such, this is no problem because we had fun playing out the match and intend to do it for further conflicts relevant opinions relevant to our armies - however, next time we would appreciate a scenario a little less stupidly one-sided.
The only one moving the goalposts is you, multiple times, on practically every statement you've made, and this has been absolutely cemented with each further response.
And for someone talking about people disrespecting other peoples skill and opinions, you are being awful liberal with the use of the word moron to describe the dark eldar player who's plays you disagree with, especially when a.) its you who was wrong b.) the person you are debating has been polite and calm about the whole thing.
After my last post I'd told myself I wasn't going to reply to you anymore, but seriously this post was just too provocative to ignore. Just do everyone a favour, and please just drop it, nobody wants to continue this idiotic "debate" that no longer even counts as one at this point and I don't want to continue being made a part of it. You are the equivalent of a lawyer still yammering on to jury, after the defendant has already been tried, found guilty, and executed. The verdict is already out on this one. Lets just move on for everyone's sake. Please.
You took the time. I guess i will.
You absolutely did show disrespect. You can say otherwise. That's fine. Dismissive behavior is disrespect in every place I know of.
No ones whining about your drawing being flawed. Weak sauce. I'm observing it. You seem to be claiming a victory here but it sounds like whoever this "person" you played was would benefit from seeing what i posted so he can counter you better. You ASKED for input and when you got it, ya' didn't like it. Shocker. I even provided detailed schematics to show you what your opponent might have tried instead of this two pronged death march into the maw of the beast. So now you're trying to appeal to higher authority to claim a victory but you don't even seem bothered that your worthy opponent made the error in both deployment, first turn move AND in the way he placed his Grotesques after being blown out. How does this not interest you? It's pretty salient and to make your own case as well as possible, you need this kind of counterpoint to improve upon it.
You don't own nine Riptides and I will wager among Tau Generals the vast majority dont. Most dont even own six (though at least I have actually SEEN that kind of list)! Nine auto loses to Obsec. It auto loses in the form you have it. So you can sling as many dice as you want and I need ONE figure to claim the primary Objective! I shouldn't have to explain to you why that makes this list improbable and rare even if you would someday be willing to run the gauntlet with it. But here we are, explaining it to you. LIKE the Necron Decurion, even a Militarum Tempestus force can beat it because you, like the pure Decurion, simply can't take anything from them but kills. So yes. It is an improbable tournament list. That is why Tau Generals take six at the most, and not nine, when they do this. They comprehend their peril and incorporate other things. With this Dark Eldar list for example, it has the same problem. It HAS to kill OR TRAP all the Obsec first (If there is any!) if it even wants a chance or it has to play tertiaries for close wins. I understand that about this Dark Eldar list. Fortunately, it works because I can assert positional dominance on them. I have to sort of blockade people off with the list and trap them to keep them from objectives. Its a bad limitation to have and its why mine ALSO is unusual and calling it anything BUT an unusual army is disingenuous. It is and most people won't do it. They'll play it like your opponent did, and say "wowa...no way. Not doing that list" after cleaning up his models. I have bneen fortunate enough to have the time i need to experiment and learn it more.
I started the conversation. So I know what MY point was, ShredderShards. I see your answer...and your answer with nine riptides didn't at any point address mine. So ergo, goalposts moved. What you did is said "Oh you dont' think a Third riptide is necessary? Well let me you what a NINE Riptide list can do to the same Dark Eldar army you smashed Wings with". Complete non sequiter. I told you hat happened against more conventional and far more likely Riptide iterations. Your counter was...this. I was helpful in explaining it so you could try it but I anticipated this kind of a report from you. You can see an agenda a mile away.
Got it, thanks a bunch. I'm of the same mindset. I love plasma! I plan on buying a third Riptide so I can do a Riptide Wing and then just run crises & stealth suits without the limitation concern from Riptides. I was going to use the new Breacher teams in devilfish but... they seem a bit cost restrictive.
Breachers are great, the problem is their movement. Running them in devilfish is required. Unfortunately that means that your looking at a ~200 point unit minimum. When I run them I like teams of 8 (just my preference). The Hunter Cadre run+shoot is nice cause it helps get them into that 6/3 profile range. Just make sure they have support nearby. They are still fire warriors and ap4 is not great for survival!
I know you don't want ghostkeel, but they are pretty amazing too. And the ghostkeel wing can add some really nice army survival through their stealth bubbles.
I don't want the Stormsurge. I'm an old school Tau player that had stopped playing them for awhile and the big Stormsurges just don't feel fluffy to me. The Ghostkeels however feel right in line with the Tau! I forgot to mention I have some Broadsides too for saturation fire with HYMP. But you've given me a good path forward, so thanks!
SHUPPET wrote: Moving on from this argument but on a related note, I've been looking at 9 Riptides for a while myself.
Does anyone have any opinion on how to do them? ITC rules, so only 3 detachments.
Personally I don't like clustering Riptides into multiple units so I'm playing with taking 3 Wings as my entire detachments. As far as upgrades go, I was looking at taking 1x shield drone on each, for a total of 9 drones and 9 Riptides, to lessen the blow of grav, because nothing else seems too remarkable. Counterfire is sick but at the end of the day it even if you overwatch down half the squad, if they make it to combat your Riptide is out of the game anyway, so it seems kinda situational. The problem is, Shield drones slow down the boost move which is so key to the army.
EWO seems nice but situational, might use it to fill up any extra points though. Taking FNP is pointless unless you can grab it on everyone, because they are likely just going to focus the ones who don't have it.
A big part of me is thinking of just taking 10 Riptides instead (1x 2man unit), putting EWO on 4 of them, VT on 1 of them, and Split Fire on the one unit of 2. 1850 points, bam. Who needs markers
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take 3 riptide wings because you're only allowed to duplicate a formation once.
Been thinking about running Breachers, has anyone ran them with an ethereal? I mean its probably crazy but Assualt 3 srt6 ap3 would be pretty vicious. Of course it would be subject to return fire and would have the ethereal in the line of fire.
I didn't "disrespect your ideas" in any way, I countered it with logical reasoning and explained why I disagreed. If you find this disrespectful, you need to move out of your safespace, or not bother posting opinions if you can't handle any counter responses.
Yes, my diagram was massively out of proportion - its ridiculous that you are still whining about this. I literally spent over an hour just making those 2 pics as a visual representation, and said multiple times they are not made accurately. Most Battle reports do not even go to the extent of effort that I did for this, you have absolutely no reason to complain here, I now regret making the pictures up to begin with.
The only thing "improbable" you've been able to point at with my set-up was the number of Riptides, yet since then there has been multiple people discussing 9 Riptide builds and even someone who took 10 Riptides at Adepticon. So once again, you are indisputably wrong. Also, the entire test of this army was the strength of Riptide Wings against your list that supposedly eats them for breakfast, which it quite resoundingly did not.
No, I didn't play by myself - I played with a very real opponent, using a combination of both our collections, and some size equivalent proxys models to play out this battle. We went to a lot of effort to make it as such, this is no problem because we had fun playing out the match and intend to do it for further conflicts relevant opinions relevant to our armies - however, next time we would appreciate a scenario a little less stupidly one-sided.
The only one moving the goalposts is you, multiple times, on practically every statement you've made, and this has been absolutely cemented with each further response.
And for someone talking about people disrespecting other peoples skill and opinions, you are being awful liberal with the use of the word moron to describe the dark eldar player who's plays you disagree with, especially when a.) its you who was wrong b.) the person you are debating has been polite and calm about the whole thing.
After my last post I'd told myself I wasn't going to reply to you anymore, but seriously this post was just too provocative to ignore. Just do everyone a favour, and please just drop it, nobody wants to continue this idiotic "debate" that no longer even counts as one at this point and I don't want to continue being made a part of it. You are the equivalent of a lawyer still yammering on to jury, after the defendant has already been tried, found guilty, and executed. The verdict is already out on this one. Lets just move on for everyone's sake. Please.
You took the time. I guess i will.
You absolutely did show disrespect. You can say otherwise. That's fine. Dismissive behavior is disrespect in every place I know of.
No ones whining about your drawing being flawed. Weak sauce. I'm observing it. You seem to be claiming a victory here but it sounds like whoever this "person" you played was would benefit from seeing what i posted so he can counter you better. You ASKED for input and when you got it, ya' didn't like it. Shocker. I even provided detailed schematics to show you what your opponent might have tried instead of this two pronged death march into the maw of the beast. So now you're trying to appeal to higher authority to claim a victory but you don't even seem bothered that your worthy opponent made the error in both deployment, first turn move AND in the way he placed his Grotesques after being blown out. How does this not interest you? It's pretty salient and to make your own case as well as possible, you need this kind of counterpoint to improve upon it.
You don't own nine Riptides and I will wager among Tau Generals the vast majority dont. Most dont even own six (though at least I have actually SEEN that kind of list)! Nine auto loses to Obsec. It auto loses in the form you have it. So you can sling as many dice as you want and I need ONE figure to claim the primary Objective! I shouldn't have to explain to you why that makes this list improbable and rare even if you would someday be willing to run the gauntlet with it. But here we are, explaining it to you. LIKE the Necron Decurion, even a Militarum Tempestus force can beat it because you, like the pure Decurion, simply can't take anything from them but kills. So yes. It is an improbable tournament list. That is why Tau Generals take six at the most, and not nine, when they do this. They comprehend their peril and incorporate other things. With this Dark Eldar list for example, it has the same problem. It HAS to kill OR TRAP all the Obsec first (If there is any!) if it even wants a chance or it has to play tertiaries for close wins. I understand that about this Dark Eldar list. Fortunately, it works because I can assert positional dominance on them. I have to sort of blockade people off with the list and trap them to keep them from objectives. Its a bad limitation to have and its why mine ALSO is unusual and calling it anything BUT an unusual army is disingenuous. It is and most people won't do it. They'll play it like your opponent did, and say "wowa...no way. Not doing that list" after cleaning up his models. I have bneen fortunate enough to have the time i need to experiment and learn it more.
I started the conversation. So I know what MY point was, ShredderShards. I see your answer...and your answer with nine riptides didn't at any point address mine. So ergo, goalposts moved. What you did is said "Oh you dont' think a Third riptide is necessary? Well let me you what a NINE Riptide list can do to the same Dark Eldar army you smashed Wings with". Complete non sequiter. I told you hat happened against more conventional and far more likely Riptide iterations. Your counter was...this. I was helpful in explaining it so you could try it but I anticipated this kind of a report from you. You can see an agenda a mile away.
You'd lose sleep if you didn't get the last word, wouldn't you.
We read the conversation. You said a third Riptide is a bad choice, he said that a third Riptide to make the Wing is the most efficient unit points can buy after getting the first 2, you posted some list in return that apparently destroys lists with the extra Riptide, blah blah blah, and he posted a BatRep proving that at the very least, the Riptide's are not the the unit costing you games. You specifically said their mobility didn't make a difference, and regardless of how many mistakes you think were made in his BatRep, it showed that the mobility makes a big difference.
Whatever you think it is you are doing, with all this misdirection, the accusations of moving the goalposts and whatever other excuses you've used so far, is not convincing anyone of anything.
You can get the last word on me, and just repeat the same post you've been making for like 4 pages straight row now getting gradually ruder each time, but just repeating the same thing over and over doesn't change a thing. This really isn't worth the length its been dragged out to and I feel like only you would take it to this level Jancoran. Now go on, take the last word, tell me how his BatRep was so inaccurate and how the list was unfair and whatever else. Shredder, please for everyone's sake don't bother responding to him again - he will not drop it until you do.
SHUPPET wrote: Moving on from this argument but on a related note, I've been looking at 9 Riptides for a while myself.
Does anyone have any opinion on how to do them? ITC rules, so only 3 detachments.
Personally I don't like clustering Riptides into multiple units so I'm playing with taking 3 Wings as my entire detachments. As far as upgrades go, I was looking at taking 1x shield drone on each, for a total of 9 drones and 9 Riptides, to lessen the blow of grav, because nothing else seems too remarkable. Counterfire is sick but at the end of the day it even if you overwatch down half the squad, if they make it to combat your Riptide is out of the game anyway, so it seems kinda situational. The problem is, Shield drones slow down the boost move which is so key to the army.
EWO seems nice but situational, might use it to fill up any extra points though. Taking FNP is pointless unless you can grab it on everyone, because they are likely just going to focus the ones who don't have it.
A big part of me is thinking of just taking 10 Riptides instead (1x 2man unit), putting EWO on 4 of them, VT on 1 of them, and Split Fire on the one unit of 2. 1850 points, bam. Who needs markers
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take 3 riptide wings because you're only allowed to duplicate a formation once.
You are right - I guess 2 wings is the maximum, which means you have 3 "overlap" Riptides minimum to slot into other units. I guess multi-model Riptide units are inevitable.
BrotherGecko wrote: Been thinking about running Breachers, has anyone ran them with an ethereal? I mean its probably crazy but Assualt 3 srt6 ap3 would be pretty vicious. Of course it would be subject to return fire and would have the ethereal in the line of fire.
Viable?
I actually posted a list with them here some pages back that took advantage of the Ghostkeel Wing's Stealth bubble. I've since tweaked that list a touch to the following (off the top of my head):
Ghostkeel Wing
3 Ghostkeels - fusion, CIR, EWO on all, 1 VT - 455
1847 total
Basically, you just drive your Devilfish around, dropping Breachers wherever convenient and hopefully screening them with your 2+ cover box. You can also herd stuff into flamer position for your Y'Vahra, if you so desire. The Surge is there for Wraithknights, mainly, since the original iteration of this list had 2 Y'Vahras and pretty well mauled Knights. Ghostkeels are just awesome, and the Stealth bubble certainly doesn't hurt.
So I have a 800pt tourney coming up and I'm trying to get back into the Tau game (been out since 5th) and so some help if available would be appreciated.
The army comp is as follows: may only use one detachment or formation, only one model with 4+ wounds, only 1 squad of multi-wound models or one vehicle with 13+ AV and no ForfeWorld or Lords of War. Its supposed to be a "friendly" tournament but every one that I've partaked in has at least 3 Eldar players deliberately ignoring friendly and one Necron player that, "just didn't realize how powerful their army was". So I'd ideal like to keep up with those types, I can pull my own blows against the friendly gamers.
I have 1 ghostkeel and 3 crisis suits. I'm eye balling the starter box as I want to run a 6 man crisis mini bomb. However, I can not decide load out for squat.
I was thinking using Farsight Enclave:
2x4 pathfinder squads
Ethereal
1x10 Breacher squad w/shas'ui, guardian drone
Devilfish w/ SmS and DP 6 Crisis w/ shas'vre, Plas, Flamer on everybody and neuro web jammer
Ghostkeel w/ fusion collider, fusion blasters
(Everybody is bonded)
I've considered stealthsuits also instead of pathfinders also.
I'm not sure how this will play or if my suits have the right weapons .
Anyone have an opinion on Shadowsun? Is she worth the $50 price tag and the points in an army list? I'm just starting Tau and purchased the Codex and a Commander today and would like to know what else to get.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Shadowsun? Is she worth the $50 price tag and the points in an army list? I'm just starting Tau and purchased the Codex and a Commander today and would like to know what else to get.
I do rather enjoy using her. And Tau can be relatively easily and competitively be built if you stick to the start collecting boxes. Shadowsun as warlord allows her crisis squad to move 3d6, and another way to look at her price is buying shield generators for each model in the squad that she joins. Also, the Command Drone is great when used with a unit of HBC riptides. The IA Blast is no longer rerolled with the proposed FAQ, but the ones on the NOVA'd HBC Tides make it a lot better (and if you are using 3 tides in a single squad rather than a Wing) and make them effectively BS5 (without markerlight support).
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Shadowsun? Is she worth the $50 price tag and the points in an army list? I'm just starting Tau and purchased the Codex and a Commander today and would like to know what else to get.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Shadowsun? Is she worth the $50 price tag and the points in an army list? I'm just starting Tau and purchased the Codex and a Commander today and would like to know what else to get.
Wait until they finalize the FAQ. They have a little bit of a contradiction currently, but depending on which way they swing, it could make her unusable.
FAQ in question (TLDR) Q: Can a unit choose not to use their infiltrate special rule and deploy normally? A: Yes but then.. Q: Can an IC with infiltrate join a unit without infiltrate during deployment? A: No. An IC with infiltrate may never join units for any action including outflank, deepstrike, etc during deployment.
I paraphrased.. but you get why this could be a bad thing, and they need to clarify further.
Anyone have any recommendations for fighting against the likes of Chaos and KDK? I have one Riptide already, with three broadsides, two boxes of Pathfinders, and a few Fire Warrior boxes. Should I grab a few Sky Rays to help with horde-style armies? Or stay away from tanks?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have any recommendations for fighting against the likes of Chaos and KDK? I have one Riptide already, with three broadsides, two boxes of Pathfinders, and a few Fire Warrior boxes. Should I grab a few Sky Rays to help with horde-style armies? Or stay away from tanks?
Tanks are a no go against horde armies unless you can lay down pie plates. The key is to concentrate your fire on one piece of his army so that you can open room for you to move your army to in an attempt to kite as long as possible.
Against KDK, you will have max 3 shooting phases before you are charged. That is if you have first turn, second turn and overwatch. If you go second, then you are looking at two shooting phases (first turn and overwatch). This is very important to know becuase you need to prepare to screen your forces.
For me and my NOVA list that I have been practicing. I run the firestream formation and screen my riptide wing with drones and pirahna. Generally I pop hailfire turn 1. Why? because they can't scout and assault, so regardless of them being in your face it doesnt matter. If you go second, that is more situational.. maybe you need to be able to move, maybe not. But the riptide HBC+SMS in hailfire can really put down some fleshhounds. If you run riptides, and you expect to get charged, nova your HBC because you can still use that in overwatch, ripple fire does not work.
There is nothing that Chaos can throw down that Tau can't handle. KDK is really the only threat because of the speed and assault.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Shadowsun? Is she worth the $50 price tag and the points in an army list? I'm just starting Tau and purchased the Codex and a Commander today and would like to know what else to get.
No model is worth a $50 price tag. Having said that, Shadowsun is very cool. Being able to AUTOMATICALLY pass Look out Sir attempts when she wants to? Sweet! It's really quite helpful and lets you put her at the head of the spear. A unit rolling around with three 18" meltas guns that are accurate is kinda awesome. making them 2+ saves and autpmatically getting 3D6 on JSJ to ensure it? i mean there is a whole lot to like about her. I used her in my first test with the Optimized Stealth Cadre and it was boss. Took out a Superheavy with her unit (well...finished it off, I think it had three Hull points on it already).
I also think if you are a fluff bunny, that she is pretty cool to have in there.She can even split away from the group if need be. I liked using her.
SHUPPET wrote: Moving on from this argument but on a related note, I've been looking at 9 Riptides for a while myself.
Does anyone have any opinion on how to do them? ITC rules, so only 3 detachments.
Personally I don't like clustering Riptides into multiple units so I'm playing with taking 3 Wings as my entire detachments. As far as upgrades go, I was looking at taking 1x shield drone on each, for a total of 9 drones and 9 Riptides, to lessen the blow of grav, because nothing else seems too remarkable. Counterfire is sick but at the end of the day it even if you overwatch down half the squad, if they make it to combat your Riptide is out of the game anyway, so it seems kinda situational. The problem is, Shield drones slow down the boost move which is so key to the army.
EWO seems nice but situational, might use it to fill up any extra points though. Taking FNP is pointless unless you can grab it on everyone, because they are likely just going to focus the ones who don't have it.
A big part of me is thinking of just taking 10 Riptides instead (1x 2man unit), putting EWO on 4 of them, VT on 1 of them, and Split Fire on the one unit of 2. 1850 points, bam. Who needs markers
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take 3 riptide wings because you're only allowed to duplicate a formation once.
Like I said: absurd example to even use to make his point. It is what it is.
So I know I was asking questions before but I saw the new death from the skies book is coming out? I actually have 2 NIB flyers that I haven't put together because I read they just aren't even worth using.
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take 3 riptide wings because you're only allowed to duplicate a formation once.
Like I said: absurd example to even use to make his point. It is what it is.
Except that's not what it is, as he took 2 Riptide Wings not 3 so his list was perfectly legal, and you are just looking for whatever excuse you can get as per usual, and the comment you are responding to me is ME spitballing on how best to build such a list.
Unless I'm mistaken, you can't take 3 riptide wings because you're only allowed to duplicate a formation once.
Like I said: absurd example to even use to make his point. It is what it is.
Except that's not what it is, as he took 2 Riptide Wings not 3 so his list was perfectly legal, and you are just looking for whatever excuse you can get as per usual, and the comment you are responding to me is ME spitballing on how best to build such a list.
Go away.
Even better. Only two charges to make?
Lol. You go away. This list idoesnt address the original question and it IS absurd. Saying otherwise is delusional. You need more straw if you're going to grasp this hard.
Lol. You go away. This list idoesnt address the original question and it IS absurd. Saying otherwise is delusional. You need more straw if you're going to grasp this hard.
It's absurd. Buy it if it isnt and play it.
pretty sure I've looked into the tactica of it much deeper than you have, pretty sure when it come's to "grasps" you've already made it very clear just how weak how weak yours actually is, and I'm also pretty sure that what I'm currently talking about has nothing to do with your abysmal little argument, I'm just trying to discuss the best way to build a Riptide list, and you are just doing exactly what YOU were complaining about before, and gaking on people's ideas just because of how narrow minded you are. You are definitively trolling at this point Jancoran, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped quoting me with this nonsense when I specifically said what I'm talking about has nothing to do with your opinion that absolutely everyone is absolutely presto on. You think DE beat Tau, we get it, and you somehow think that battlerep like 3 pages ago didn't prove otherwise, we get it. We just don't care. Let us discuss Tau tactica please.
I wasn't pointing that out to resume the argument from before. I was just showing that there would be a problem with the proposed list which did not seem to be involved with the Coven vs Riptide debate.
Personally, I think the riptide wing (even a single one) trumps the coven formations and I say that as a player who uses my coven stuff far more than I use my Tau stuff.
I'm sad about the FAQ because I was currently building a breacher heavy team in devilfish to rush up the board and unload with support from an ethereal. Now it doesn't seem feasible because the Ethereal can't extend his invocation from inside the transport and I can't have the devilfish jink as they approach the enemy because the breachers will end up snapshooting too. I liked the idea of using the Tau detachment and letting the devilfish, drones, and breachers count as the 3 separate units needed to gain a +1 bs and with a drone net I would have been able to get plenty of markerlights around for all the units to share and ignore cover with. Alas, I was too slow building it I guess...
Where's stated you can't take more than 2 of the same Formation? The only limitation I know is for Formations and Detachments that require a model in it to be your Warlord (you can have only one of those).
Also, Shadowsun cannot join any unit in deployment that has no Infiltrate rule.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys I haven't had a chance to delve through the FAQ bit by bit yet, what in there has affected us?
ArmchairArbiter wrote:So I know I was asking questions before but I saw the new death from the skies book is coming out? I actually have 2 NIB flyers that I haven't put together because I read they just aren't even worth using.
Does the new flyer book change this?
So this book does not make flyers OP. Now that is out of the way, it helps give them some neat things. I completely disagree with the dogfight minigame.. i originally thought it was a chart roll of thing, but now you would have to place them on a complete seperate table.. no thanks. I know my local group will not be using that portion of rules.
Otherwise, I think if you like flyers this book gives you some really neat stuff. And as it is written it looks like you can upgrade a flyer from any detachment into a wing. So you can benefit from your formation rules + wing rules. It is a misconception in my opinion that our flyers are bad; personally I think our flyers are well balanced, the problem is.. for the same points we have other better units (That is a codex issue, not a flyer issue). So I say! Run some flyers if you have them, and see if you like them.
Retrogamer0001 wrote:Anyone recommend using the R'varna or Y'vahra battlesuits from FW? Are they strictly better at any one thing as opposed to the basic Riptide?
They all have their strengths. Y'vahra is just dirty good right now. When the new book comes out for IA Tau, I imagine it is going to get toned down. The R'varna looks awesome, but I don't think he adds more then a normal ion riptide does. If FW releases a riptide wing equivalent and lets you take Y'vahra, oh man... my wallet will hurt..
ArmchairArbiter wrote:Ya'll need to quit arguing and answer these tactics questions lol.
Agreed!
Vector Strike wrote:Where's stated you can't take more than 2 of the same Formation? The only limitation I know is for Formations and Detachments that require a model in it to be your Warlord (you can have only one of those).
From the normal rules, you can have as many as yuo want. ITC specifically limits formation spam *cough* aspect host *cough* too a max of 2 of the same formation.
Regarding Shadowsun, I used her today in a full crisis suit unit with buffmander (inc iridium armour, Stims & vectored retro thrusters). Ran the crisis suits with all missile pods and target locks.
The 3d6 jet pack move definitely helps. Stealth and shrouding is very nice, although allot of ignore cover is flying about these days. I'll definitely continue trying her out.
Only wee issue was opponent brought his blood Angels, just not a fair fight at all really :-(
Last time we played it was a draigo star, so was surprised to face some vanilla blood angels! A crisis star and OSC, backed up by skyrays, might not be uber competitive, but enough to overpower older books. Anyone face this issue and how do you deal with it?
I offered to let my opponent choose the mission and placed all but one objective each in the midfield. Without having alternative models on hand, best I could really do.
Y'Vahra is totally awesome. The swoop move combined with the ability to handily assassinate pretty much anything short of a Wraithknight is really tough for most people to handle. If your opponent has any idea how good it is, he'll probably make it die fast, though, so watch out! Get your licks in early.
The R'Varna is mediocre, in my opinion. It'll never die, but you aren't exactly starving for high-strength, medium AP weaponry. Like Grizz said, it's not really an improvement over a regular old IA Riptide, which has the notable benefit of ignoring most of those large targets' armor, instead of just adding in an extra wound to save.
Bryan01 wrote: Last time we played it was a draigo star, so was surprised to face some vanilla blood angels! A crisis star and OSC, backed up by skyrays, might not be uber competitive, but enough to overpower older books. Anyone face this issue and how do you deal with it?
I offered to let my opponent choose the mission and placed all but one objective each in the midfield. Without having alternative models on hand, best I could really do.
I have the same problem with my own Tau. They are just so powerful that some armies (like Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marines) really can't compete with them. I guess maybe one way would be to take subpar formations (like the Allied Advance Cadre or the one from the start collecting set) and just try to limit the good stuff. I had put together a list using a CAD and the start collecting formation that was slightly less crazy, but to me it still looked like it would just eat the older armies.
How are people finding Broadsides this edition? Are they worth including in an army list against less mech-oriented armies? My regular opponents are KDK/CSM.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: How are people finding Broadsides this edition? Are they worth including in an army list against less mech-oriented armies? My regular opponents are KDK/CSM.
As the soviets famously embraced, Quantity has a quality all its own. The Broadsides can put out a ton of very accurate shots, so I mean... Even against Hordes its good. Against Flyers its good. Against light armor its good, against moderately armored troops its good and just vie the STR on all its weapons, its good against the uber tough stuff to force them to start having to roll those saves, no matter how heinously good those saves might be. its a swiss army knife type of unit.
I think it is better in armies that are more MSU than the current meta is seeing. The Riptide Wings and what not squeeze the list so mightily and also replace the firepower so convincingly that it really becomes an afterthought. But if you're not wanting to purchase the Riptides to play that way, then Broadsides are quite a good choice.
I personally still like them for deployment shenanigans. they also have that interesting thing where you can make them deep strike and they are relentless! So there are some really good ways to use them in conjunction with other things. The Infiltration Cadre with that particular formation makes a lot of sense here again if you do not want to play the meta-preferred Riptide Wings.
So yeah I would say that it's really just a matter of choice. You can get 6 wounds worth of Broadsides for a little more than five wounds of Riptides. Not as tough, but a LOT more shots. There's a tradeoff but it might be a good one.
i have enough Broadsides to go ballz out on them but i dont because i enjoy my sneaky armies too much I guess. but thats no reflection on the value fo the Broadside, just a strategic preference. They are definitely still good.
Given the strengths and weaknesses of Broadsides, would it be worthwhile to take the full amount of Missile Drones and a Buffmander with Drone Controller for them? Puretide Chip to give them Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter, MSS to give them Ignores cover, Drone Controller for that sweet BS5 on the missile drones. Sounds like a really amazing unit to me! Pity I don't actually own any Broadsides, although I'm sure I could call on a friend of mine who does...
ZergSmasher wrote: Drone Controller for that sweet BS5 on the missile drones.
Yes.
Please do this.
Spoiler:
Then delete the entry on P.122 of the Codex that limits Drone Controllers to buffing the BS of Gun, Marker, and Sniper Drones.
**edit** meant to end with \sarcasm**edit**
The buffmander is wasted in a broadside unit. Regardless of which build you use, all the weapons are twin linked, so the C&C node is going to be wasted. One of the weapons (SMS) ignores cover natively, and requires no LOS so the MSS is wasted too.
ZergSmasher wrote: Given the strengths and weaknesses of Broadsides, would it be worthwhile to take the full amount of Missile Drones and a Buffmander with Drone Controller for them? Puretide Chip to give them Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter, MSS to give them Ignores cover, Drone Controller for that sweet BS5 on the missile drones. Sounds like a really amazing unit to me! Pity I don't actually own any Broadsides, although I'm sure I could call on a friend of mine who does...
The misile Drones seem like a little too much in a lot of cases. Same amount of overkill might get you the Markerlights you need and want to hit most of the time and ignore cover anyways!
I'd rather have that utility separate, especially when they are already festooned with TL weapons, some of which ALREADY ignore cover. Just food for thought. I like my buffmander to protect the separate unit of marker drones and force more target issues.
ZergSmasher wrote: Drone Controller for that sweet BS5 on the missile drones.
Yes.
Please do this.
Spoiler:
Then delete the entry on P.122 of the Codex that limits Drone Controllers to buffing the BS of Gun, Marker, and Sniper Drones.
**edit** meant to end with \sarcasm**edit**
The buffmander is wasted in a broadside unit. Regardless of which build you use, all the weapons are twin linked, so the C&C node is going to be wasted. One of the weapons (SMS) ignores cover natively, and requires no LOS so the MSS is wasted too.
Whoops, you're right. It doesn't help missile drones. I still think Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter is pretty badass on S7 weapons. Good for taking on Knights and stuff. But there are definitely better options for that kind of thing. Point taken.
I just bought a fully-painted Tau army with roughly ~2,000 to 2,500 points worth of models. It was built for 6th edition, so I thought it might be fun to try to optimize it for a unique 7th edition army that is still good. I am a pretty savvy 40k player, and I've started looking at the Montka and Kauyon books, but I admit that I don't understand Tau at all and that all those options for detachments, formations, special drones, and different signature systems are overwhelming. Could someone please help me figure out a fun, strong 1850 list based on what I have?
The models are:
-2x commanders (one with double plasma, one counts-as whatever)
-Farsight and Shadowsong, if I want to use them
-3x riptides (2 ion cannon, 1 burst cannon)
-3x double melta crisis suits, 5x double plasma crisis suits
-6x broadsides with all high yield and smart missiles
-11x kroot + another 1x krot + 2x kroot riding forgeworld kroot mounts + 2x kroot hounds
-8x converted pathfinders, option to build more of them
-1x special drone + 6x donres + another 4x drones
-1x skyray missile ship
From what little I understand, I was thinking something like:
Detachment 1: Riptide Wing (montka for the earth caste pilot array on the burst cannon riptide?) [3x riptides]
Detachment 2: Hunter Contingent [1 commander + 3x 10-man kroot squads + 2x 4-man pathfinder teams + + 1x 3-man melta crisis suit squad + 3x 2-man broadside teams + 2x 4-man marker drone squads ala drone networks]
Detachment 3: Combined Arms [Farsight warlord + 3x 2-man objective-secured plasma suit squads + 1x skyray missile ship + aegis line with comms relay]
Not sure how many points all that is or what upgrades to buy everything, but it seems in the ballpark of 1850? I was thinking that I have a lot of marker lights, I can used coordinated firepower + simo markerlight on a deathstar unit for broadside fire (remove invisibility with enough BS boost), Farsight can no-scatter with the melta squad, the 3 plasma squads go where I need them to grab objective or shoot weak backline stuff, kroot either screen assaults or outflanks, riptides double-tap every round and hopefully kill everything. Not sure about normal systems or signature systems or special drones for tricks.
So what are opinions of Strike Teams taking Guardian Drones and the DS8 Tactical Support Turret? With the DS8, would the missile pod or smart missile system work better? Are there other drones other good drones other than the Guardian Drone for Strike Teams with pulse rifles?
BrotherGecko wrote: So what are opinions of Strike Teams taking Guardian Drones and the DS8 Tactical Support Turret? With the DS8, would the missile pod or smart missile system work better? Are there other drones other good drones other than the Guardian Drone for Strike Teams with pulse rifles?
I have yet to take the Turrets with a Fire Warrior team, mainly because they are such a small part of my game plan in normal situations. But I am quite interested to hear whether others are making any extensive use of them.
The two opponents who used them against me armed them with Smart Missiles and the ignores cover of course is a very good thing to have. In both games, i was very hard pressed by it (in both games i was playing mechanized Adepta Sororitas and so the ignores line of sight thing took a heavy toll on my forces).
BrotherGecko wrote: So what are opinions of Strike Teams taking Guardian Drones and the DS8 Tactical Support Turret? With the DS8, would the missile pod or smart missile system work better? Are there other drones other good drones other than the Guardian Drone for Strike Teams with pulse rifles?
I personally would go with sms as it is getting you more of the same type of shooting as the rest of the unit. Often you don't want to be firing missile pods at the same target as pulse rifles so in those situations you would have to shoot either weapon at a subpar target. With sms you don't have that issue and gain some nice ignores cover/los shots
Related to my above post, what are the best upgrades / drones to put with a commander if you're attaching him to a big Farsight unit of no-scatter crisis suits?
Vector Strike wrote: 6++ is pretty little. I wouldn't spend points for the sarge + drone.
the turret, on the other hand, is pretty nice for objective camping FWs
Is a Shas'ui w/ markerlight still a thing on strike teams?
I could see the guardian not being all that worth it, maybe with Breachers then.
So then avoid drones on Strike Teams is what I'm getting.
I use the DS8 turret with missiles sometimes. Works good for Strike teams camping in rear objectives, giving them a small chance to punch above their weight with S7 shots. The SMS is a good choice too, though, for the reasons others have stated. As for the Guardian Drone, I only ever take it with Breachers, Breachers get a 5++ from it, whereas Strikers only get a 6++.
Vector Strike wrote: 6++ is pretty little. I wouldn't spend points for the sarge + drone.
the turret, on the other hand, is pretty nice for objective camping FWs
Is a Shas'ui w/ markerlight still a thing on strike teams?
I could see the guardian not being all that worth it, maybe with Breachers then.
So then avoid drones on Strike Teams is what I'm getting.
Yep, you can get the 'ui with markerlight. I don't think it's worth it, though - with the Drone Net formation from Mont'ka/Farsight, there's little reason to do what you asked.
Drones are really useful for people with Drone Controller (suits) or if they're free (vehicles/tidewall)
Last new question but has 7th edition been friendlier to the idea of using pulse carbine fire warriors? I love the look but I am usually discouraged from doing it.
Right now I'm planning to run my strike team with a DS8 and 'ui with markerlight. It will be rear objective camping. The 2nd squad I haven't made a decision on yet.
If you intend to camp rear objectives with your Fire Warriors, take Pulse Rifles. The 30" range lets you hit things from further away than even Space Marines can reach. I can't think of any reason to ever take Carbines, myself. Pinning is nice, but the short range is not so nice. If I want Fire Warriors to get close to the enemy, I'll pretty much always just take Breachers, as their weapons are AP3 up close.
Last new question but has 7th edition been friendlier to the idea of using pulse carbine fire warriors? I love the look but I am usually discouraged from doing it.
Right now I'm planning to run my strike team with a DS8 and 'ui with markerlight. It will be rear objective camping. The 2nd squad I haven't made a decision on yet.
Pulse carbines are not bad, at all.
But when it comes down to infantry works, the network gun drones is just so much superior to the carbine warriors its not even funny.
Yes, 14 PPM rather than 9PPM, but you also land 50% more hits, got higher statline, precision shots, interceptor, jetpack moves, ability to jink in case of emergency, etc.
The cost increase is further diminished when you consider the fact a carbine team is usually in a devilfish, and the drone team simply don't need one. they are far faster on foot, and can deepstrike into combat.
As for 'ui with markerlight-there is never an excuse for it. costs far too much compared to the effect. if it was networked I'd CONSIDER it, but as it is, just far more efficent to have an extra model in your dedicated marker platform.
New Barracuda - Weapons
The main gun can either be
a Heavy Burst Cannon
a Barracuda Ion Cannon
a Swiftstrike Railgun (and as the pic shows, it is closer in size to the HRR, but not quite the same)
You have the expected Missile Pods.
The turret on the back is a Decoy Drone.
The wing turrets are now a choice of either
a Long-barrelled Burst Cannon
a Long-barrelled CIB
Spoiler:
Fellow Tau Players, how do you think these new weapons will factor into your strategies?
Do you think the HBC will have an nova type profile?
What might the Swiftstrike Railgun be like?
Same question for the LB CIB What do you think the decoy drone will do? Invulnerable save?
Naaris wrote: Fellow Tau Players, how do you think these new weapons will factor into your strategies?
I think this will (for me) revolve around two things:
1. Cost-Points wise, the old Barracuda was 5 more than a base Hammerhead. Slap on some Decoy Launchers and have some fun! The new one seems have more points fluctuation with all the options, but with FW, who knows? If it's still relatively inexpensive for what you get, and has the flexibility to be magnetized to fill different roles depending on the rest of the list being built, that will be akin to a flying Crisis Suit, very cool.
2. What's the ITC going to do with DftS? My FLGS uses ITC for it's houserules, so this help determine how Fliers at large are used. Although if the rumors of a new BRB are true (and the DftS rules are in it), the ITC may just be kicking the can down the road by not using it (at least in part).
Naaris wrote: Do you think the HBC will have an nova type profile?
I doubt it, that's a very "Riptide" thing. Still a great weapon without it, if the price is right.
Naaris wrote: What might the Swiftstrike Railgun be like?
The LBBC was just added range, so hopefully the same here.
Naaris wrote: What do you think the decoy drone will do? Invulnerable save?
Hopefully something more useful. The Decoy Launcher is so cheap, and guarantees not jinking on the first turn a flier shows up. An Invuln on following turns would be nice, but I'd rather see something altogether unique to the Barracuda.
Seems to me that a Riptide Wing, Drone Network, and then a Hunter Contingent with Stormsurge is the way to go for a strong, yet not uber-competitive list. Anyone have any suggestions for ditching the Hunter and going with something else though?
I think the main reason that people aren't using the Hunter Contingent extensively is that the ITC ruled that Coordinated Firepower essentially applies only to marker lights, where sharing special rules is concerned. I (and many others) interpret the rule very differently and feel it should include any special rules related to shooting. Is this broader application, a Hunter Contingent with a "Buffmander" - that is, a Commander with a MSS, C&CN, and PEN chip - is an exceptionally strong choice. With a substantial portion of your army rerolling misses and wounds/armor pen and ignoring cover, you're going to be tough to stop, and I think that's a big reason the ITC ruling went down as it did.
If you're going to use the more permissive reading of Coordinated Firepower, do your best to limit your formations to those included in the Contingent. Take full advantage of that Buffmander! Otherwise, the Hunter Contingent isn't a terribly competitive option. You'd be better served by either a Dawn Blade Contingent (with a Retaliation Cadre as your core choice) or just a plain CAD as your base.
Alternatively, you can easily compose a simple but strong army out of a few of the individual formations we have. The Optimized Stealth Cadre, Ranged Support Cadre, Riptide Wing, and Retaliation Cadre all have excellent potential. I also ran an army last weekend that exploited the Stealth bubble granted by the Ghostkeel Wing. While it lacked some of the massive dice-dumping punch of a typical Tau army, the essentially army-wide 2+ cover in the open was giving my opponent fits. I lost due to some novice tactical errors and inexperience with the list, but it has definite potential. We have a lot of viable and seemingly tournament-worthy options to work with, so go nuts.
My local group uses the watered-down rules for the Hunter Contingent, so no army-wide Buffmander shenanigans. For that reason, my preferred list is CAD (with Stormsurge)+OSC+Drone Net. It worked out pretty good for me at my Tau's last outing.
I got another game in using the Infiltration Cadre, Optimized Stealth Cadre and a CAD.
Fought a Lancer, Paladin and Crusader alongside four of the new Imperial fighter planes. Second time I have faced it. kind of a neat combo. A lot of hard ot hit, hard to kill stuff with some very serious firepower attached. The shooting it can put out is pretty dang impressive. he had a token inquisitor in the mix as well but not really part of his plan, just there out of necessity.
He conceded by the end of turn two, with both his Lancer and his Paladin down for the count, the Crusader damaged and one of his planes gone. The firepower he rained down on the StormSurge was something else, but in the end it was going to take a second turn to kill it and by then, no doubt he would be down another couple planes and probably the Crusader. No point in continuing.
I'm picking up 2 more ghostkeels and 2 stormsurges. I whipped up this list to use the new toys. I've generally run my OSC with the one GhstK with the ion raker. But with a full squad of 3 I get to utilize the Fireteam rule, so now those guys are BS5 in the formation. That should definitely impact the scatter ranges. After some articles and batreps that Frontline gaming put out regarding how to run the stormsurges. I had to get 2. They make a pretty convicing argument to go really aggressive with them. and as a 2 GC team they can alternate wounds at initiative step and via moving them infront of one another. They also said that doing so makes shield generators a must. To get everyone in at 1850pts I had to forego giving the ghostkeels FNP. I tend to always give them FNP because at least they'll get a save against type of attack thats not str10. I'd also usually hide the ethereal in a devilfish but I believe the new FAQ says you can't do that anymore, so I've beefed him up with some armor and shields.
I feel like this list is a good all-comers list. Great anti armor. Good against hordes. High volume of fire. Good against MEQ and TEQ. Dweapons and stomps available against deathstars. Good amount of interceptor as well. Con would be no anti air.
The main strategy would be to always move the surges, get into close range for the d cannon and stomps. Then always have to OSC moving around wrecking everyone. Perhaps everyone. The FW would hold back field objectives.
+ Troops + Strike Team [5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Rifle]
Strike Team [5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Rifle]
Strike Team [6x Fire Warrior with Pulse Rifle]
Strike Team [6x Fire Warrior with Pulse Rifle]
+ Fast Attack + Pathfinder Team [4x Pathfinder]
Pathfinder Team [4x Pathfinder]
I run 1 Stormsurge and also run a Commander (CC node, DC) with 2 ML drones attached a squad of ML drones. There are few things more satisfying than connecting with a few Dmissiles on a Wraithknight and deleting it off the table in one turn.
Your current set up will average 4-5 marker lights per turn and I don't think that's enough to make 2 SSs worth it. I would maybe cut down on some FW squads, one squad of pathfinders, and switch Ethereal for a Commander with some ML drones. If you are playing against opponents with large models on the table, you're going to want to maximize the effectiveness of the D missiles.
Also, I think there is a new Frontline Gaming where Frankie's opponents goes two Stormsurges and a Riptide Wing. Worth checking out.
Bach wrote: I run 1 Stormsurge and also run a Commander (CC node, DC) with 2 ML drones attached a squad of ML drones. There are few things more satisfying than connecting with a few Dmissiles on a Wraithknight and deleting it off the table in one turn. .....
I just had a game where i brought a Stormsurge and Ta'unar against 2 imperial knights and a plethora of varied SM crap (3500pts). Ta'unar actually didnt do anything other than draw fire and fear tactics. The stormsurge was the MVP. Turn 1 it blew up BOTH knights firing 2 D missiles at each lol...opponent was rather upset and justifyingly so since i rolled 3 Deathblows rofl
Those D missiles do work. Im actually starting t think the Ta'unar is WEAKER than the stormsurge offensively. And that just sounds so wrong to say rofl. This isnt the first larger game ive ran both and the ta'unar basically just stood there towering over everything looking epic and doing nothing while the SS ravaged everything
On the contrary, I've had relatively poor luck with D missiles so far. The fact that you often need 4 marker light hits (2 for cover, 2 for BS) to even make a missile worth upgrading with subsequent hits is prohibitive. Catching whatever you're unloading on outside of cover obviously makes the scenario more palatable, but that has been a relatively uncommon occurrence in games I've played.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a Stormsurge fan, for sure. I just think the utility of the D missiles is oversold quite a lot. I'm much more interested in the obscene stream of S5 shots, stomps, and high-strength large blasts the model can put out. The missiles are a great bonus, but they've been more useful as a threat than an actual offensive option for me.
Taking that concept a giant step further, I'm actually toying around with a marker-less version of the Ghostkeel Wing/ Devilfish Breacher army I've mentioned here. I find that I have too many small units for marker light hits to mean much, so I'm going to try switching my Drone Net out for an extra Y'Vahra. My Stormsurge will suffer due to the lack of lights, no doubt, but I don't know that the rest of the army will at all. We'll see if the Y'Vahra can make up for the lack of force multiplication.
I just concentrate 8 Markerlights in said targets...and...end them.
Takes three Markerlights at least, per target, to make them maximize their coolness, but then...I have them to give so whatevs!
The limited number of missiles is the sad part because missing or whiffing on the damage result hurts. its just a glorified dakkagun after those missiles are fired for like 440 points but if they land... work is done. Makes the rest of the army able to handle the remaining hull points.
I did however land SIX D weapon hits on a Brass Scorpion... and a total of 6 Hull Points. oofta. Now THAT was a bummer. Ended up losing to it 6-4 at the last tournament. Good game but it does show you that even when you hammer the big boyz, they dont always go down. its apparently called armor for a REASON. Hehehehe.
Jancoran wrote: The limited number of missiles is the sad part because missing or whiffing on the damage result hurts. its just a glorified dakkagun after those missiles are fired for like 440 points but if they land... work is done. Makes the rest of the army able to handle the remaining hull points.
I did however land SIX D weapon hits on a Brass Scorpion... and a total of 6 Hull Points. oofta. Now THAT was a bummer. Ended up losing to it 6-4 at the last tournament. Good game but it does show you that even when you hammer the big boyz, they dont always go down. its apparently called armor for a REASON. Hehehehe.
I feel your pain on this. I played a game against another Tau player. I caught his Stormsurge outside of cover and put 4 D missiles into it at BS5. One of them whiffed, I rolled 2 1's on the D table, and he saved the other one on his invuln save. My alpha strike did absolutely nothing and I just got my butt handed to me (HIS D missile barrage wiped out my Stormsurge).
It's one of those things that, while it's really great when it works, you should never plan your army or strategy around it.
Well...Imagine what kind of game it would have been if I had zero D missiles to hit that thing with! Lol. So in the end i am convinced the Stormsurge is necessary but it isn't the sure fire thing you'd like and it takes a lot of points for it to try. Worthwhile results when it works.
And the fact you can barrage them all in a single turn on a single target is nice, especially post-FAQ where "toe in cover" doesn't work, so you can and will catch big target out of cover quite often.
The option to merely threaten to delete any superunit is valuable, even if it whiffes, the fact you had a decent chance to pull it off, forced the enemy to play less agressive, and by such giving more time for your dakka to do it's work.
you can build 7-8 marker drones with what you get in the start collecting box. But frankly, other than the Start Collecting box? The Codex & FSE supplement.
Heavy Support:
Sniper Drones. The Firesight Marksman are too good. The Sniper Drones themselves? not shabby either.
Troops:
Fire Warriors.
Elites:
Riptide. Duh
HQ:
Commander
Aun'Va
Fast Attack:
Marker Drones
Those would be my first stops. Though other things might be cool to have, these are really great building blocks. The Drone Net is a great Formation but so is the Buffmander with Drones. Aun'Va will surprise most opponents with what he does for a Tau Empire contingent. Riptides are just really really great units, troops are obvious and the only thing on the list that you might think strangely of is the Sniper Drones, but there is so much to be said for a unit of three FireSight Marksmen as another markerlight source that is super accurate and just happens to come with ridiculously accurate Sniper buddies who are ancillary but still worth the points.
I love the old stealth suits, I only run them! Even converting up one as a stand in shadowsun. The new ones just seem too bulky to sneak past a grot!
Quick question regarding Ghostkeels, does the countermeasures only work in the shooting phase, or can you use them vs witchfires that require a roll to hit?
I thought it could be used vs witchfires, but after re-reading the rule entry, i'm not so sure now.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I'm considering buying a Y'Vhara from FW today, not sure if I prefer running that or the Buffmander Crisis suit bomb.
Nice models, really dig the dynamic poses of the Ghostkeels and the color scheme.
Spanks
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: Wow, look at all those old-school Stealth suits! Very interesting and unique Tau color scheme, by the way!
Thank you as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryan01 wrote: I love the old stealth suits, I only run them! Even converting up one as a stand in shadowsun. The new ones just seem too bulky to sneak past a grot!
Quick question regarding Ghostkeels, does the countermeasures only work in the shooting phase, or can you use them vs witchfires that require a roll to hit?
I thought it could be used vs witchfires, but after re-reading the rule entry, i'm not so sure now.
I beleive the Countermeasures only work in the shooting phase, but the crazy cover saves work all the time. The Athas Molloch Talisman you can take on a Commander is highly recommended (by me).
I ran this list below in an attempt to not stomp face against the lower tier armies at the FLGS. Basically the shop has a lot of tau, then 2 to 3 players of each other factions. The shop meta is competitive and only the dedicated IOM players get stomped most days. So in an effort to have more fun and to hopefully let me opponent have more fun I'm moving to fluffy lists that power down Tau, or at least I thought so... Last week I played GK and tabled them turn 2. His list was 2 dreadknights, 2 squads of interceptors, 2 squads of terminators - 1 with a librarian the other had a grand master maybe? and he was with a squad of paladins. I deployed first but he seized. All but 1 reserve unit with his warlord came in. As you can see from the list I have, not much was killed by interceptor because of the 2+ save and average rolling on my part. His DKs and their flamers basicall killed both FW squads and all but 1 marksman on the Sniper Drone squad. He used the personal teleporters on the infiltrators as well and had them in my face turn 1. So despite the hammer and anvil deployment I lost the distance advantage. But then I started wrecking him. His Terminator squad was killed by 1 of the plasma crisis suits. The other CS squad and 1 Railside killed a DK. The breachers poured out and killed both infiltrator squads, except for 1 man. The rail pathfinders and the other 2 HRRsides were 1 wound shy of killing the 2nd DK. His other terminator squad came in turn 2. He wiped 1 squad of crisis suits out with the dreadknight. My Turns 2 I kill everything on the board leaving his Paladins in orbit and thus won the game.
I made a mistake by not having my ethereal with the sniper drone squad but it saved me 2 VP's beacuse he wiped out the sniper squad first turn. I found this list to be strong, and mobile and I think would perform well against anyone but eldar. If you haven't given breachers a try, I would highly recommend them. 10 Str 6 AP3 shots coming from a 5 man squad devastates mech. Is this strong? I don't know. I feel like it is if you play a good tactical game. Is it tournament worthy, no probably not. Will people's eyes light up when you bring a Tau list to the table that has no Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stormsurges or other brutal combinations, undoubtedly YES.
I like riptides as much as the next guy but my ghostkeels always do much much more work. Is it just me?
Edit- this is my current list for reference. My group is new so no one is using a LoW yet so no stormsurge, but it does great. I also have a hunter contingent army but this one is more fun
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Inside the Riptide Wing formation, they're much more deadly with the Hailfire ability. Absolute devastation vs infantry and light mech.
Naaris wrote: If you haven't given breachers a try, I would highly recommend them. 10 Str 6 AP3 shots coming from a 5 man squad devastates mech. Is this strong? I don't know. I feel like it is if you play a good tactical game. Is it tournament worthy, no probably not.
Breachers really are fun, aren't they? I personally advocate squads of more than 5 myself, as they are too easy to wipe out with just 5 dudes, plus the cost of the shas'ui and guardian drone is mitigated more on larger squads. I've been on the receiving end of a Breacher attack with my Ravenwing, lost 4 Black Knights in one volley after they used markerlights to remove my awesome rerollable jink save. Only reason I didn't lose more is because of Feel no Pain. Breachers are solid, make no mistake. They just take a bit more finesse to make them work.
On a (mostly) unrelated note, is it ever worth it to take EMP grenades on a unit? My thinking is no, partly due to the FAQ nerfing grenades in combat. Under the old rule a Strike/Breacher/Pathfinder team could down a Knight in theory in just 1 round of combat with EMP grenades. Now they can't.
EMP grenades are dead. Vehicle killing is left so fusion and plasma suits.
I love me so rail weapon action but they're so ineffective to what their fluff dictates. If only they were something like d3 wounds or hull points per hit.
It would be great to see more Railsides, hammerheads and rail pathfinders on the table.
Speaking of which I feel like a retaliation cadre formation would really make railsides with buffmander worthwhile. Especially if you had a drone net. 3 relentless HHRsides w/ plasma rifles with 6 missile drones at BS3. with tankhunters or monster hunters and ignore cover and reroll hits with 2 gun drones from the buffmander and farsight for no scatter. - 3 - str8 ap1, 4 str6 ap2 , 4 str5 ap 5, 12 str7 ap4 shots all re-rolling hits, all ignoring cover, all with tank hunter or monster hunter - no scatter deep striking in.
- Anyone run something like this? Sounds like a real deathstar killer.
I have some (n00b) questions. Breachers look fun so I was wondering if a breacher team with a devilfish + attached drones as part of a hunter contigent could get the coordinated firepower perk (without needing other units to help) if on disembarking from the devilfish, the drones becoming unattached and so becoming a separate unit from the fish making the breachers, drones and fish 3 separate units for co-coordinated firepower?
Also does co-ordinated firepower stack with supporting fire? So if 2 other units lend their fire to the overwatching unit they all get +1 BS?
Also how does one use markerlights to buff overwatch? It says in the markerlight rule for pinpoint that the bonus can be used in overwatch but markerlight tokens are removed at the end of the phase they were placed in if they weren't used but overwatch happens in the other players assault phase at which point all unused markerlights should have been removed?
SolarCross wrote: I have some (n00b) questions. Breachers look fun so I was wondering if a breacher team with a devilfish + attached drones as part of a hunter contigent could get the coordinated firepower perk (without needing other units to help) if on disembarking from the devilfish, the drones becoming unattached and so becoming a separate unit from the fish making the breachers, drones and fish 3 separate units for co-coordinated firepower?
Also does co-ordinated firepower stack with supporting fire? So if 2 other units lend their fire to the overwatching unit they all get +1 BS?
Also how does one use markerlights to buff overwatch? It says in the markerlight rule for pinpoint that the bonus can be used in overwatch but markerlight tokens are removed at the end of the phase they were placed in if they weren't used but overwatch happens in the other players assault phase at which point all unused markerlights should have been removed?
Your first question is a maybe. It all depends on if the drones are considered part of the hunter cadre, and I recall several debates similar revolving around daemons, so I can't really answer that part for you.
The coordinated fire does not stack with supporting fire, as coordinated fire, specifies the shooting phase
Lastly markerlights can be used in overwatch by applying those markerlights in overwatch. You can use supporting fire on pathfinders, and marker drones to overwatch markerlights on the target, and then another unit overwatches the target and can use the lights
The coordinated fire does not stack with supporting fire, as coordinated fire, specifies the shooting phase
As for the first part it should be yes? It all depends on iff the drones are considered part of the hunter cadre, and I recall several debates similar revolving around daemons, so I can't really answer that part for you.
Breachers can take a devilfish for a dedicated transport and the devilfish has two detachable drones. If the breachers were from the hunter cadre then surely so is their transport and its drones?
The coordinated fire does not stack with supporting fire, as coordinated fire, specifies the shooting phase
As for the first part it should be yes? It all depends on iff the drones are considered part of the hunter cadre, and I recall several debates similar revolving around daemons, so I can't really answer that part for you.
Breachers can take a devilfish for a dedicated transport and the devilfish has two detachable drones. If the breachers were from the hunter cadre then surely so is their transport and its drones?
The transport yes, the drones however, I would say yes, but iirc similar things have been debated. I for one would definitely allow you to do it though. Also I may be completely misremembering the debates I'd seen. My instincts say yes you can use the drones, fish and breachers for supporting fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In short I believe so. you could post this in you make da call and see if anyone there has a better answer. Or I could.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alright I posted the question here:
We'll either get a definitive answer or spark a debate that'll go in circles.
Ok thanks for that. I'm feeling pretty confident that it should be okay at this point though.
I'm wondering how best to give a breacher team marker light support for overwatch since it seems you are right that coordinated firepower can't stack with supporting fire. I see them driving up in their fish to a MEQ squad, drones detaching from the fish and the team disembarking then all blasting the MEQs in the face with coordinated firepower. But then they are sat there inches away from the survivors and their friends with nothing but overwatch to save them from being destroyed in assault.
Somewhat hilariously the breachers weapon has the assault rule, would there ever be a time when you want to charge into cc with them though? Short ranged firepower they have but they still suck in cc.
Well if you take pathfinders as part of your core in the Hunter cadre, they can then fire overwatch with supporting fire from 12 inches instead of 6 due to "unbreakable Bonds of Comradeship." That is the trouble with breachers though, they get too close.
I want to run them in a CAD with darkstrider, with his -1 to target toughness they can IDmeqs, then they can move 6 inches after overwatch before the charge is rolled. if any meqs survive the shooting phase, then charge you and they survive your overwatch they still have to roll an extra 6 inches further whatever you were originally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for charging, yes occasionally it can work out, if just to tie up an enemies important unit for a turn or two, once the breachers have served their purpose or you know they won't survive another turn just charge in and tie up an enemy unit.
We'll either get a definitive answer or spark a debate that'll go in circles.
Ok thanks for that. I'm feeling pretty confident that it should be okay at this point though.
I'm wondering how best to give a breacher team marker light support for overwatch since it seems you are right that coordinated firepower can't stack with supporting fire. I see them driving up in their fish to a MEQ squad, drones detaching from the fish and the team disembarking then all blasting the MEQs in the face with coordinated firepower. But then they are sat there inches away from the survivors and their friends with nothing but overwatch to save them from being destroyed in assault.
Somewhat hilariously the breachers weapon has the assault rule, would there ever be a time when you want to charge into cc with them though? Short ranged firepower they have but they still suck in cc.
Just played a game vs GK and I had a 10man breacher squad in a dfish with an ethereal and guardian drone. I was able to easily give them ML support with an infiltrating stealth squad even in overwatch (stealth team can sit behind breachers for a 3+ cover save in the open). Had a similar experience to what you described, rolled up and hopped out in str6 ap3 range, each breacher firing 3 shots, killed 2 termies and his warlord librarian, next turn he charges and i supporting fire with the stealth teams ML and get 1, causing my breachers to hit on 5.... killed 4 termies in the overwatch I doubt it will ever get as good as that, but theres potential. take out a breacher and throw darkstrider in there and you have an extremely lethal and valuable unit. I always give my ethereal a homing beacon so my boys can rescue him. Pretty much everybody forgets that he has the beacon (I tell them in the beginning that he has it and what it does) and they just get blown off the table by a no-scatter crisis drop. Also another extremely amazing combo I recently discovered by accident using the breacher/ethereal squad.. When your crisis bomb drops within 6" of the Ethereal for no scatter, all the gun drones the crisis suits bring get a bonus shot too
I can see breachers charging a weakened unit so they cant get blown off the table, with 4+ armor 5++ invul and a potential 6+ FnP from eth they can survive melee. or they can try to pop a vehicle with str6 then EMP it to finish the job (not anymore ) Hopefully GW sees how they goof'd grenades and fix emp grenades atleast,
Zarroc1733 wrote: Well if you take pathfinders as part of your core in the Hunter cadre, they can then fire overwatch with supporting fire from 12 inches instead of 6 due to "unbreakable Bonds of Comradeship." That is the trouble with breachers though, they get too close.
I want to run them in a CAD with darkstrider, with his -1 to target toughness they can IDmeqs, then they can move 6 inches after overwatch before the charge is rolled. if any meqs survive the shooting phase, then charge you and they survive your overwatch they still have to roll an extra 6 inches further whatever you were originally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for charging, yes occasionally it can work out, if just to tie up an enemies important unit for a turn or two, once the breachers have served their purpose or you know they won't survive another turn just charge in and tie up an enemy unit.
Yeah pathfinders are an option but the issue with them in regards to buffing a breacher's overwatch is that they aren't very mobile. They have scout but after that they are slow, giving them a fish also is of debatable value given the extra cost. I'm leaning towards marker drones at the moment. They can be taken in place of pathfinders in the hunter cadre, they are jet pack infantry and T4 4+ save so more mobile and durable their only downside is low BS but for buffing overwatch that doesn't matter so much...
On using a CAD with darkstrider that does look kinda powerful for killing HQ marines otherwise not so great as regular MEQs are only 1 wound anyway. Breachers can get that "move away from chargers" equivalent using the grav-inhibittor drone also without darkstrider. Though I suppose that would stack with darkstrider making the unit extra slippery. Another thing you are getting is ObSec though I suppose as a mobile short ranged assassination unit that is not such a huge benefit.
Just played a game vs GK and I had a 10man breacher squad in a dfish with an ethereal and guardian drone. I was able to easily give them ML support with an infiltrating stealth squad even in overwatch (stealth team can sit behind breachers for a 3+ cover save in the open). Had a similar experience to what you described, rolled up and hopped out in str6 ap3 range, each breacher firing 3 shots, killed 2 termies and his warlord librarian, next turn he charges and i supporting fire with the stealth teams ML and get 1, causing my breachers to hit on 5.... killed 4 termies in the overwatch I doubt it will ever get as good as that, but theres potential. take out a breacher and throw darkstrider in there and you have an extremely lethal and valuable unit. I always give my ethereal a homing beacon so my boys can rescue him. Pretty much everybody forgets that he has the beacon (I tell them in the beginning that he has it and what it does) and they just get blown off the table by a no-scatter crisis drop. Also another extremely amazing combo I recently discovered by accident using the breacher/ethereal squad.. When your crisis bomb drops within 6" of the Ethereal for no scatter, all the gun drones the crisis suits bring get a bonus shot too
I can see breachers charging a weakened unit so they cant get blown off the table, with 4+ armor 5++ invul and a potential 6+ FnP from eth they can survive melee. or they can try to pop a vehicle with str6 then EMP it to finish the job (not anymore ) Hopefully GW sees how they goof'd grenades and fix emp grenades atleast,
Awesome. What about Aun-shi instead of a regular ethereal? He is much better in melee and has more wounds though he doesn't have a homing beacon. Also twice the cost though..
When i use my Pathfinders as weapons (and i do) I give them a Devilfish for sure. Worth it. its mobile cover plus if the enemy is the right kind, they can actually be deployed separate from the unit, though this is kind of a more rare use of the Devifish to be sure in my universe.
But i have written before on how scary a unit of Pathfinders can be and i think there is great merit in their use on offense. Unless they are in my Infiltration Cadre, I rarely even use the markerlights they carry.
Jancoran wrote: When i use my Pathfinders as weapons (and i do) I give them a Devilfish for sure. Worth it. its mobile cover plus if the enemy is the right kind, they can actually be deployed separate from the unit, though this is kind of a more rare use of the Devifish to be sure in my universe.
But i have written before on how scary a unit of Pathfinders can be and i think there is great merit in their use on offense. Unless they are in my Infiltration Cadre, I rarely even use the markerlights they carry.
That is a thing that might be interesting to me. Pathfinders have other weapons and they have marker lights. Meaning for the purpose of buffing a breachers overwatch they can use their weapons in their shooting phase whilst still buffing the breachers overwatch in the other players assault phase.
Jancoran wrote: When i use my Pathfinders as weapons (and i do) I give them a Devilfish for sure. Worth it. its mobile cover plus if the enemy is the right kind, they can actually be deployed separate from the unit, though this is kind of a more rare use of the Devifish to be sure in my universe.
But i have written before on how scary a unit of Pathfinders can be and i think there is great merit in their use on offense. Unless they are in my Infiltration Cadre, I rarely even use the markerlights they carry.
That is a thing that might be interesting to me. Pathfinders have other weapons and they have marker lights. Meaning for the purpose of buffing a breachers overwatch they can use their weapons in their shooting phase whilst still buffing the breachers overwatch in the other players assault phase.
This is an example of how i have used the Pathfinders and EMP before. Kinda illustrates the way I have used them. I have many more battles with them used like this but these were actually available to watch.
Jancoran wrote: When i use my Pathfinders as weapons (and i do) I give them a Devilfish for sure. Worth it. its mobile cover plus if the enemy is the right kind, they can actually be deployed separate from the unit, though this is kind of a more rare use of the Devifish to be sure in my universe.
But i have written before on how scary a unit of Pathfinders can be and i think there is great merit in their use on offense. Unless they are in my Infiltration Cadre, I rarely even use the markerlights they carry.
That is a thing that might be interesting to me. Pathfinders have other weapons and they have marker lights. Meaning for the purpose of buffing a breachers overwatch they can use their weapons in their shooting phase whilst still buffing the breachers overwatch in the other players assault phase.
But any Pathfinder who equips another weapon loses their markerlight as the ion and rail rifles replaces the pulse carbine and the markerlight. So with a minimum size squad, you are only getting one markerlight.
Zarroc1733 wrote: Well if you take pathfinders as part of your core in the Hunter cadre, they can then fire overwatch with supporting fire from 12 inches instead of 6 due to "unbreakable Bonds of Comradeship." That is the trouble with breachers though, they get too close.
I want to run them in a CAD with darkstrider, with his -1 to target toughness they can IDmeqs, then they can move 6 inches after overwatch before the charge is rolled. if any meqs survive the shooting phase, then charge you and they survive your overwatch they still have to roll an extra 6 inches further whatever you were originally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for charging, yes occasionally it can work out, if just to tie up an enemies important unit for a turn or two, once the breachers have served their purpose or you know they won't survive another turn just charge in and tie up an enemy unit.
Yeah pathfinders are an option but the issue with them in regards to buffing a breacher's overwatch is that they aren't very mobile. They have scout but after that they are slow, giving them a fish also is of debatable value given the extra cost. I'm leaning towards marker drones at the moment. They can be taken in place of pathfinders in the hunter cadre, they are jet pack infantry and T4 4+ save so more mobile and durable their only downside is low BS but for buffing overwatch that doesn't matter so much...
On using a CAD with darkstrider that does look kinda powerful for killing HQ marines otherwise not so great as regular MEQs are only 1 wound anyway. Breachers can get that "move away from chargers" equivalent using the grav-inhibittor drone also without darkstrider. Though I suppose that would stack with darkstrider making the unit extra slippery. Another thing you are getting is ObSec though I suppose as a mobile short ranged assassination unit that is not such a huge benefit.
Marines themselves yes its not great for, outside of the extra slipperiness you mentioned because believe me the 3 inches you can get from the drone isn't enough. On their turn they'll just march their unit within an inch of you during movement before the charge, that way after your drone does its thing they'll only have to roll 2-4. With the inhibitor + darkstrider, that'll become an 8 at worst and a 10 at best. Also they are great at killing the multi wound units from other factions regardless of armor saves due to the sheer number of shots. I play an ork player often and I sorta just want to blow up his MANz.
As for the pathfinders vs drones, I do prefer drones myself, but I couldn't remember if they could be taken in the core hunter cadre formation, which grants supporting fire up to 12 inches instead of just 6. Looking at my book now I see they can be taken which would make them my preferred choice. I myself don't run a hunter cadre so I couldn't remember all of it.
Jancoran wrote: When i use my Pathfinders as weapons (and i do) I give them a Devilfish for sure. Worth it. its mobile cover plus if the enemy is the right kind, they can actually be deployed separate from the unit, though this is kind of a more rare use of the Devifish to be sure in my universe.
But i have written before on how scary a unit of Pathfinders can be and i think there is great merit in their use on offense. Unless they are in my Infiltration Cadre, I rarely even use the markerlights they carry.
That is a thing that might be interesting to me. Pathfinders have other weapons and they have marker lights. Meaning for the purpose of buffing a breachers overwatch they can use their weapons in their shooting phase whilst still buffing the breachers overwatch in the other players assault phase.
But any Pathfinder who equips another weapon loses their markerlight as the ion and rail rifles replaces the pulse carbine and the markerlight. So with a minimum size squad, you are only getting one markerlight.
You wouldn't use them for Markerlights. The Pathfinders outflnank with their drones and strike the enemy backfield hard. So the loss of Markerlights for Rai; Rifles is pretty immaterial.
In my list i use a Drone swarm and Firesight Marksmen as my Markerlight caddies, and they assist the Pathfinders, Riptides and such in their kill missions.
Jancoran wrote: When i use my Pathfinders as weapons (and i do) I give them a Devilfish for sure. Worth it. its mobile cover plus if the enemy is the right kind, they can actually be deployed separate from the unit, though this is kind of a more rare use of the Devifish to be sure in my universe.
But i have written before on how scary a unit of Pathfinders can be and i think there is great merit in their use on offense. Unless they are in my Infiltration Cadre, I rarely even use the markerlights they carry.
That is a thing that might be interesting to me. Pathfinders have other weapons and they have marker lights. Meaning for the purpose of buffing a breachers overwatch they can use their weapons in their shooting phase whilst still buffing the breachers overwatch in the other players assault phase.
But any Pathfinder who equips another weapon loses their markerlight as the ion and rail rifles replaces the pulse carbine and the markerlight. So with a minimum size squad, you are only getting one markerlight.
You wouldn't use them for Markerlights. The Pathfinders outflnank with their drones and strike the enemy backfield hard. So the loss of Markerlights for Rai; Rifles is pretty immaterial.
In my list i use a Drone swarm and Firesight Marksmen as my Markerlight caddies, and they assist the Pathfinders, Riptides and such in their kill missions.
I understand what you are saying , but the post I was replying to was stating use other weapons in shooting and markerlights in overwatch. This is only possible for any pathfinders that are not upgraded with ion or rail rifles since those weapons replace the markerlight. Also breachers cannot have the grav inhibitor drone. That drone is available to pathfinders only. And the current discussion was regarding using breachers with pathfinder support.
I understand what you are saying , but the post I was replying to was stating use other weapons in shooting and markerlights in overwatch. This is only possible for any pathfinders that are not upgraded with ion or rail rifles since those weapons replace the markerlight. Also breachers cannot have the grav inhibitor drone. That drone is available to pathfinders only. And the current discussion was regarding using breachers with pathfinder support.
I was thinking of the pathfinder's pulse carbines rather than the special weapons.
Point taken on the grav inhibtor drone but it doesn't matter anyway as it is crap, the best defence against assault for a hunter cadre breacher is absolutely crushing overwatch. Stick a single crisis suit nearby with a pair of burst cannon and the counterfire defence system and you have some brutal overwatch support even without markerlights. Give their fish the point defence thingey and it can contribute its burst cannon to the overwatch as well. Have a hammerhead with longstrike nearby and he can overwatch support multiple times for multiple units, murder!
I prefer running my Breachers more as a suicide unit than anything. If your unit gets wiped, no big deal. It was 45 points, and it probably did a lot more than 45 pts' worth of damage before eating it. Rather than going out of my way rigging some elaborate and expensive defense for them, why not just have more dudes? Boys before toys!
I've been experimenting with Ghostkeel Wing-protected Devilfish, and they have seldom failed to deliver their Breacher cargo. As far as I'm concerned, any firepower that goes towards punching through a 2+ cover Devilfish is a win for me. Similarly, any shot at a disembarked Breacher unit after it deletes a target is also acceptable.
MilkmanAl wrote: I prefer running my Breachers more as a suicide unit than anything. If your unit gets wiped, no big deal. It was 45 points, and it probably did a lot more than 45 pts' worth of damage before eating it. Rather than going out of my way rigging some elaborate and expensive defense for them, why not just have more dudes? Boys before toys!
I've been experimenting with Ghostkeel Wing-protected Devilfish, and they have seldom failed to deliver their Breacher cargo. As far as I'm concerned, any firepower that goes towards punching through a 2+ cover Devilfish is a win for me. Similarly, any shot at a disembarked Breacher unit after it deletes a target is also acceptable.
It isn't just 45pts though if you figure in the 80 pt minimum devilfish delivery system which becomes worthless once the breachers are dead. If you can keep them alive longer through overwatch shenanigans then not only are you killing more stuff (at no extra cost) but they may live to jump back in their fish and race off to delete something else. Soviet tactics work for the guard, not so much for the Tau.
MilkmanAl wrote: I prefer running my Breachers more as a suicide unit than anything. If your unit gets wiped, no big deal. It was 45 points, and it probably did a lot more than 45 pts' worth of damage before eating it. Rather than going out of my way rigging some elaborate and expensive defense for them, why not just have more dudes? Boys before toys!
I've been experimenting with Ghostkeel Wing-protected Devilfish, and they have seldom failed to deliver their Breacher cargo. As far as I'm concerned, any firepower that goes towards punching through a 2+ cover Devilfish is a win for me. Similarly, any shot at a disembarked Breacher unit after it deletes a target is also acceptable.
It isn't just 45pts though if you figure in the 80 pt minimum devilfish delivery system which becomes worthless once the breachers are dead. If you can keep them alive longer through overwatch shenanigans then not only are you killing more stuff (at no extra cost) but they may live to jump back in their fish and race off to delete something else. Soviet tactics work for the guard, not so much for the Tau.
If you are running a CAD rather than a Hunter Contingent, the D-fish has ObSec. Not totally worthless, as you can still cap objectives with it. If you took a D-pod, you can jink for a 3+ cover save (you didn't take the 'fish for its shooting after all!).
I'm always surprised that more people don't think of Breachers as a competitive choice. Most armies would kill for that many S6 AP3 shots, for that cheap. Delivery system, or just buying a mountain more of them, I always feel like they either do well, or take fire that would've been directed at something more valuable.
MilkmanAl wrote: Rather than going out of my way rigging some elaborate and expensive defense for them, why not just have more dudes? Breachers more as a suiciBoys before toys!
tau are one of the races where it can go either way. If tau are supposed to be a modern army in a ww1 setting, then going the other way works as well. Darkstrider with breachers are an entertaining combination too. Last, your point of the devilfish becoming worthless after the unit within dies is wrong. Never deploy an ethereal, as their aura is buffed by staying in their delivery vehicle.
My only issue with Breachers is getting them close enough to a target to enjoy their Str6 AP3. How practical is it to get a Devilfish close enough to make this happen? Obviously turn one, you can move 12 then flat out, but after that, it seems like it would be tricky to move 6 , disembark, and expect an opponent's units to be in range for the Str6 shots.
Right now, I use Breachers more defensively in the back field with my Stormsurge. It's tough to tell if they're more effective that way or not but I do think that they do provide some decent deterrent for only 45 points.
Bach wrote: My only issue with Breachers is getting them close enough to a target to enjoy their Str6 AP3. How practical is it to get a Devilfish close enough to make this happen? Obviously turn one, you can move 12 then flat out, but after that, it seems like it would be tricky to move 6 , disembark, and expect an opponent's units to be in range for the Str6 shots.
Right now, I use Breachers more defensively in the back field with my Stormsurge. It's tough to tell if they're more effective that way or not but I do think that they do provide some decent deterrent for only 45 points.
Hunter Cadre Breachers can run then shoot if within 12" of the commander (or fireblade), that adds a bit. Another thing is objectives help to hold an enemy in place for you to get close enough. Get the fish within 12" (going flat out if need be) of a unit on a objective, preferably finishing the turn in cover, then the enemy will have to surrender the objective to avoid getting blasted on your next turn. Tricky but doable.
The trick is really to keep the fish alive so close to an enemy for the duration of his turn, that's melta range. Sensor spines + disruption pods parked in cover help there as is giving the fish some overwatch support from nearby crisis suits or other. That and sniping away their melta blokes with sniper drones. Generally you are wanting a map that is cover dense in contrast to a rangy gunline that wants long open firelanes.
Soviet tactics work for the guard, not so much for the Tau.
Agree to disagree, I guess. I don't feel like spending points and putting units in a vulnerable position (i.e., far forward enough to be overwatch participants) is particularly wise when you're talking about protecting basic troops. Furthermore, Tau overwatch strikes me as more of a panic button than something to exploit. You're still hitting on 6s (or 5s with appropriate wargear) and have to be getting charged in the first place to even use it. I prefer to stay mobile and run the f away from anything that would want to get into combat.
Last, your point of the devilfish becoming worthless after the unit within dies is wrong. Never deploy an ethereal, as their aura is buffed by staying in their delivery vehicle.
I don't believe that was a point of mine - at least not recently. I'm not exactly the biggest fan of Devilfish, but they sure are hard (and frustrating!) to kill with 2+ cover. I use Ethereals in exactly that manner, though it sounds like the FAQ my squash that tactic. It's also nice to run around tank shocking enemy units and/or obsec-ing them off objectives with your expensive but durable box. I have a Drone Net in the army I'm running currently, so they're also nice for 4 twin-linked, BS3 shots per turn. It's better than nothing!
What about running breachers with the Tidewall Shieldline. I know it can only move six inches a turn, but has anyone tried it as a means to get the breachers there? It is slightly cheaper than a Devilfish and could result in the opponent's weapons wounding them instead of the breachers.
spect_spidey wrote: What about running breachers with the Tidewall Shieldline. I know it can only move six inches a turn, but has anyone tried it as a means to get the breachers there? It is slightly cheaper than a Devilfish and could result in the opponent's weapons wounding them instead of the breachers.
Except no. Given how short ranged the breachers are your opponent would have no reason to shoot at them, just ignore them for 5 turns it takes to get anywhere while they do nothing. Firewarriors would be great especially with a pulse range extender thingy because they can shoot at gak all day long and be a threat that can't be ignored but breachers wouldn't work that way at all. Breachers have to get in close fast and move on to the next (if they survive long enough to do that) without a flying transport the devilfish is the only way for them to go.
spect_spidey wrote: What about running breachers with the Tidewall Shieldline. I know it can only move six inches a turn, but has anyone tried it as a means to get the breachers there? It is slightly cheaper than a Devilfish and could result in the opponent's weapons wounding them instead of the breachers.
Except no. Given how short ranged the breachers are your opponent would have no reason to shoot at them, just ignore them for 5 turns it takes to get anywhere while they do nothing. Firewarriors would be great especially with a pulse range extender thingy because they can shoot at gak all day long and be a threat that can't be ignored but breachers wouldn't work that way at all. Breachers have to get in close fast and move on to the next (if they survive long enough to do that) without a flying transport the devilfish is the only way for them to go.
Exalted for truth! Breachers are only good close up, and the only way for them to get close up is with a Devilfish.
Your post did give me an idea, though. Maybe take a Pathfinder team, take the Pulse Accelerator drone, and put the whole works on a Tidewall Shieldline. 4+ cover save with possible reflected enemy bullets, can shoot carbines to 24 inches, and can also provide marker support if needed. Maybe put Darkstrider with them for the lolz, as well, since he could make them more effective vs. Monstrous Creatures.
ZergSmasher wrote: Exalted for truth! Breachers are only good close up, and the only way for them to get close up is with a Devilfish.
You are missing the point. Breachers are close range, yes. Question is, is where do our opponents want to be? Close. We don't need a way to go to them. We need only keep our breachers effective until our enemy comes to us.
Exalted for truth! Breachers are only good close up, and the only way for them to get close up is with a Devilfish.
Your post did give me an idea, though. Maybe take a Pathfinder team, take the Pulse Accelerator drone, and put the whole works on a Tidewall Shieldline. 4+ cover save with possible reflected enemy bullets, can shoot carbines to 24 inches, and can also provide marker support if needed. Maybe put Darkstrider with them for the lolz, as well, since he could make them more effective vs. Monstrous Creatures.
Yeah pathfinders would work really well. The fact that on the platform they don't count as moving means they can fire their markerlights at full BS whilst moving in cover each and every turn which is kind of powerful for markerlight support.
Guess who's back -------- back again ------- CKO is here ------- tell a friend!
I actually have some free time from work so I will be running my mouth a lot more again, I haven't been around since the release.
I am building a TAC Tau list and I want to get the job done in a way! Basically meaning I like to use units and tactics my opponent has not seen before making it harder to prioritize their targets. I am trying to stay away from Riptides and Stormsurges even though the Riptide Wing is very attractive!
I am going to make a thread about building the list but I want to get my fellow commanders opinion about certain things!
Things I love:
Killing blow the command benefit from the montka book! Killing blow in my opinion basically allows me to guarantee the death of one unit.
Fire Warriors on a shieldline with a fireblade, I will have an Ethereal near by so the unit will pump out 20+ str 5 at 30 inches and 40+ in rapid fire range. Combine this with death blow you will be hurting units.
Piranhas with fusion blasters able to move 18 inches than fire, that's melta range easy! Which side are you putting your ion shields on, because I really don't care!
Sniper Drones with an Ethereal, that's 27 bs 5 sniper shots at 24 inch range! Early game the unit can act as a marker light source by adding drones from the ethereal and more marksman all at bs 5. Sniper drones with killing blow equals death!
I have more but I don't want to make a crazy long post but, Killing Blow affects the enemy unit so if I bring a CAD they get to use the re-roll also, right?
> Killing Blow affects the enemy unit so if I bring a CAD they get to use the re-roll also, right?
Pretty sure it doesn't. Killing Blow is a special rule for the Dawn Blade Contingent and its members. The way GW has ruled on SM Chapter Tactics, I suspect that if you get an Ethereal into a CAD, and attach it to a unit from a Dawn Blade Contingent, that the Dawn Blade unit will actually lose its special rules.
There have been several other examples in the recent rounds of FAQ's that show ICs from one formation do not benefit from the special rules of another formation it attaches to. Unless it is a USR that specifically says "a unit that contains at least one member with this special ability" or somesuch, then all members of the unit need the ability for the unit as a whole to benefit.
daveyjones239 wrote: Pretty sure it doesn't. Killing Blow is a special rule for the Dawn Blade Contingent and its members. The way GW has ruled on SM Chapter Tactics, I suspect that if you get an Ethereal into a CAD, and attach it to a unit from a Dawn Blade Contingent, that the Dawn Blade unit will actually lose its special rules.
The benefit is not something the units get it is a benefit the player gets, it says you get to re-roll failed to wound and armor penetration rolls against that enemy unit.
daveyjones239 wrote: There have been several other examples in the recent rounds of FAQ's that show ICs from one formation do not benefit from the special rules of another formation it attaches to. Unless it is a USR that specifically says "a unit that contains at least one member with this special ability" or somesuch, then all members of the unit need the ability for the unit as a whole to benefit.
The command benefit doesn't even mention your units at all, if you look at command benefits they specifically say units or models in this formation can do xyz this command benefit allows the player to re-roll, it seems quite clear to me.
Anyone tried Tau tanks in a squadron of 3? Without target locks I had not really thought about it, but currently I'm taking three skyrays anyways. So I thought it might be interesting to squad them up for a game or two to see how it fares. I already use Shadowsun and her command drone, and was thinking that might have a good synergy with 3 bs 5 skyrays dumping their seekers (with ignore cover ofc via their markers) into something like a wraithknight. The command drone lets you re-roll ones, so effectively twin links the seeker missiles and networked markerlights.
The rest of the time I use the drone for the OSC Ghostkeels who love it!
Problem is, mere +1BS is not usually worth the loss in flexibility of self targeting and defense of being seperated, especially not for tau that can throw in markerlights to boost BS of anything, or in a hunter cadre where three seperate tanks can simply choose to combine shots and get that bonus without being in the same unit.
Yeah that was why I initially dismissed the squadrons as a bit naff, but I was thinking shadowsuns drone lets a unit re-roll ones, effectively twin linking markerlights and their seeker missiles for a trio of skyrays. The unit can use their own markers to strip cover.
18 twin liked, bs5, ignore cover seeker missiles turn one, + it leaves on average 4 spare marker hits on whatever intended target, for another unit to use at the same target. Gross overkill on most stuff, but I've found people usually have one unit, like a Wraithknight, stormsurge, biker/thunder wolf + hq's unit that requires an obscene amount of dakka!
Three separate skyrays is better for scoring and durability, but as my only marker source, they can't always strip cover individually when launching the alpha strike turn one, some markerlights miss and so forth.
The squadron throws the much better alpha strike, at the expense of flexibility. I might try it out just to see. I'm sceptical myself, but the +1 bs, in combination with a unit like skyrays that can use their own markerlights and receive a buff from a separate unit (shadowsuns command link drone), has me curious.
This is a pretty basic question, but occured to me reading some of these posts...
What's the official order of operations in terms of using Marklights to ignore cover, and offering your opponent a chance to Jink? I know asking your opponent if they want to Jink comes before any dice are rolled, but do you also ask before/after deciding if you want to spend ML to ignore cover, versus just boosting BS?
Edit: Since i'm asking questions anyway, maybe someone can help with this one. How does Target Lock interact with rules like those granted by the detachment that grants +1BS if three units shoot a given target? If I declare three units from the formation firing together, they obviously gain the bonus, but does the bonus extend to the member of a given unit who is then also firing into a separate target?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: This is a pretty basic question, but occured to me reading some of these posts...
What's the official order of operations in terms of using Marklights to ignore cover, and offering your opponent a chance to Jink? I know asking your opponent if they want to Jink comes before any dice are rolled, but do you also ask before/after deciding if you want to spend ML to ignore cover, versus just boosting BS?
Edit: Since i'm asking questions anyway, maybe someone can help with this one. How does Target Lock interact with rules like those granted by the detachment that grants +1BS if three units shoot a given target? If I declare three units from the formation firing together, they obviously gain the bonus, but does the bonus extend to the member of a given unit who is then also firing into a separate target?
As for your first question, I'd have to say the jink comes first, then the markerlights. Jink is declared upon targeting, while markerlights, are used "directly before shooting."
As for your second question, that is a very highly debated topic. Theoretically you could team up to shoot one thing then use target locks to blast everything. The rule says that the "units" must shoot at the same target, and doesn't mention models, so talk to your opponents beforehand for this one.
Thanks. Also, as I am rebuilding a bunch of lists to test, and buying a few things to fill in gaps in my collection...
1. How do people feel about the different Markerlight sources? I am thinking I still like units of FW Tetras, but I know in a Retaliation Cadre, the Dronemander's Markerlights are Relentless. Similarly, how about Skyrays as sources of Markerlights?
2. I feel like Tau, unlike most armies I have owned, legitimately have tons of viable builds, and options. That said, I know many of the detachments/formations have become super popular. Am I at a deficit if I also run small CADs with my lists? I LOVE my Yvahrha-tide, and the aforementioned Tetras, but always feel like i'm leaving something if I don't just go with formations.
With the advent of the Drone Net, drones are pretty clearly the best source of marker lights these days. I think a Mark'o is an inferior choice to 4x4 units of Marker Drones, but some disagree. Tetras are still a very good choice, but the lights on Skyrays are just a bonus. I wouldn't take them for that purpose. You could get 8 Marker Drones (or 3 Tetras) for the same cost.
I'd only take Pathfinders as part of the Ranged Support Cadre. When you can have BS3 Drones essentially for free, there's not reason to hamstring yourself with this more fragile, less mobile option. When they double their hits and have +3 to cover, Pathfinders are fine, but Drones are just better, otherwise.
The fact that Stormsurges are kind of hard to come by in formations makes the CAD a very good option. I've recently been playing around with a CAD-based army that exploits the stealth bubble from a Ghostkeel Wing with quite a lot of success. Some of our formations have really impressive bonuses, but you don't have to have everything all at once to be solid on the battlefield. Sometimes a cohesive list is a better option than the sum of multiple good parts.That said, sometimes it's really nice to ignore cover and hit rear armor with an extra BS. As you alluded to, one of the challenges of building a Tau army is figuring out which good options you want to take advantage of.
MilkmanAl wrote: With the advent of the Drone Net, drones are pretty clearly the best source of marker lights these days. I think a Mark'o is an inferior choice to 4x4 units of Marker Drones, but some disagree. Tetras are still a very good choice, but the lights on Skyrays are just a bonus. I wouldn't take them for that purpose. You could get 8 Marker Drones (or 3 Tetras) for the same cost.
I'd only take Pathfinders as part of the Ranged Support Cadre. When you can have BS3 Drones essentially for free, there's not reason to hamstring yourself with this more fragile, less mobile option. When they double their hits and have +3 to cover, Pathfinders are fine, but Drones are just better, otherwise.
The fact that Stormsurges are kind of hard to come by in formations makes the CAD a very good option. I've recently been playing around with a CAD-based army that exploits the stealth bubble from a Ghostkeel Wing with quite a lot of success. Some of our formations have really impressive bonuses, but you don't have to have everything all at once to be solid on the battlefield. Sometimes a cohesive list is a better option than the sum of multiple good parts.That said, sometimes it's really nice to ignore cover and hit rear armor with an extra BS. As you alluded to, one of the challenges of building a Tau army is figuring out which good options you want to take advantage of.
Thanks for all of that strong advice.
My current plan is to build a list towards the typical 1850pts, primarily focused on having a Retribution Cadre, with modestly buffed units of Crisis Suits in it, and a CAD which includes my beloved Y'vahra (never build a list without one... I LOVE it), and a unit of 3-4 Tetras. The Homing Beacon + Scout on the Tetras should help said Retribution Cadre land wherever they like for maximum effect.
Points allowing i'll also include an Optimized Stealth Cadre which has always, always, always, done obscene amounts of work for me.
Edit: Incidentally, are there any good ways to get Relentless Marker-Drones, or at least have them on platforms that don't make them snap-fire due to being "Heavy 1" weapons? Obviously the vehicle mounted ones have an advantage here... but do the Markerlights from a Commander's unit in the Retribution Cadre, inherit his "Relentless"? Does he only convey it to "his" two Drones, or can he attach to a unit of Drones and gift it to them?
I'll definitely consider both. Thanks guys. I own a LOT of Tau, as they had been a painting project long before I considered playing them, but now... three painted Start Collecting boxes in, and with an Y'vahra, several Tetras, and with a few painted Stealth Teams, and Ghost Keels, I have decided to make a serious go of playing them in local competitive events.
Two FSE CADs each with 2 Mark'Os and 3 flamer Crisis Monat Troops, a Markerlight Drone-Net, and 2 Pulse Stormsurges filling one of the CADs LoW slot. Depending on options, hits at around 1850points. Join the Mark'Os one each to a Drone squad for Surge Support while the Monats secure objectives.
I like to take Missile Pods and an extra Marker Drone on the Mark'Os, for 5 Marker Drones each in toto. Split Fire lets the Mark'O snipe while the Markers light.
I just painted up my Y'vahra, and the model alone has me terrified. Heavy + top-heavy + resin elements has me terrified of packing him up and transporting him regularly. :-p
But beyond that, his rules and model are absolutely amazing.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I just painted up my Y'vahra, and the model alone has me terrified. Heavy + top-heavy + resin elements has me terrified of packing him up and transporting him regularly. :-p
But beyond that, his rules and model are absolutely amazing.
Yeah, I really want to get one at some point. I know a guy who has at least one, but it's sadly not painted. That unit is one of the reasons some people hate on Forgeworld; it is absurdly powerful.
Fair enough, but when I just tried going through check-out, the exchange rate the site was suggesting wasn't remotely that favorable. :-p Methinks it will still vary depending on your payment method.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Fair enough, but when I just tried going through check-out, the exchange rate the site was suggesting wasn't remotely that favorable. :-p Methinks it will still vary depending on your payment method.
Well, I'm still waiting for FW to release the new IA book with the TAU campaign as well as the new TAU models before I pick up the Y'vahra! Seriously...I'm greying in the meantime.
wyomingfox wrote: Well, I'm still waiting for FW to release the new IA book with the TAU campaign as well as the new TAU models before I pick up the Y'vahra! Seriously...I'm greying in the meantime.
Expect it to be a while, they just released the Tauros Campaign 2nd Ed. not that long ago.
Verviedi wrote: Just bought a Y'vahra, how do you guys use them?
I use them as extremely mobile gap-fillers and fire magnets. They're going to be a very high priority target for your opponent since they can roast things so easily, so expect them to get a lot of attention. It's going to be moderately difficult to keep them out of sight, but hugging ruins is a reasonable goal. I tend to be extremely aggressive with mine since they can escape from combat relatively easily. Pick a durable, high priority target, and drop some template and/or haywire beatdown as appropriate.
Verviedi wrote: So basically, they're Tau Dreadknights, except without the DOOMHAMMER? Is the FMC mode actually useful, or am I better off just using Jetpack?
This is possibly the most useful aspect of the unit. A 12-24" move when your max weapon range is 12-14", is indispensable. I love the Y'vara as it is one of the few self sufficient tau units, no need for markerlights as it is BS4, and has a template weapon which requires no BS or ignore cover
Yes, that does sound really good. I'm just concerned about flying it too close to use the flamer, and not being able to use the jetpack to get away after shooting.
Verviedi wrote: Yes, that does sound really good. I'm just concerned about flying it too close to use the flamer, and not being able to use the jetpack to get away after shooting.
You are able to use the jetpack afterwords, it has been widely ruled that it only moves as a FMC for the movement phase, and so doesnt count as flying past the movement phase.
The biggest things in there is the fact the ECPA riptide is back (altough not other sigsys, a shame, but understandable), the markerlight-jink interaction is great news for us, and the fact that a team of multiple ghosts has multiple countermeasure uses.
Other than that, storm of fire working really well with the pulse blasters is nice, the networked stealth field interaction with terrain-limited stealth is intresting, and everything else is rather obvious.
Not sure I care for the ability of a 35-point Rhino being able to take out a 400+ point Stormsurge just by ramming it while its anchors are down. This may mean that anchoring is not a good thing to do, especially against Battle Company Marines.
I thought the Markerlight/Jink interaction would be based on the player turn, like other simultaneous resolutions. Now that Tau have access to large quantities of Intercepting Markerlights with the Drone Net, that's a nice buff. It won't be too common an interaction, Fliers most often would trigger it, if I had to guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Skysweep fix was also nice. This makes the formation do something, finally. Buffing underpreforming units, which I think should be the point of most Formations, is always cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote: The biggest things in there is the fact the ECPA riptide is back
I completely agree. As someone who has had terrible luck with the Ion Accelerator, the ECPA Burstide was my favorite loadout. I also think that, for more casual games, one of these in a CAD is a load of fun, without being overwhelming for most opponents (unlike the Riptide Wing). Plus, from a hobby standpoint, you can take your time and have one really nice Riptide as a centerpiece.
I'm glad they confirmed the ability to take more than one Signature System and mix and match them in the Enclaves. I know it was clear before, but now there is no room for an argument. I love being able to take any of the Eight now, without having to pay the "Commander Farsight Tax"!
Out of curiosity though, when was any of them actually worth fielding?
They all have a mess of unrelated gear, anti-synergy and total lack of focus.
They are cool fluff-wise, but not really worth playing.
BoomWolf wrote: Out of curiosity though, when was any of them actually worth fielding?
They all have a mess of unrelated gear, anti-synergy and total lack of focus.
They are cool fluff-wise, but not really worth playing.
You're right, competitively, they are trash. My FLGS has a good mix of casual, competitive, and narrative players. I enjoy using them in the non-competitive settings. Homebrew narrative campaigns are loads of fun, but we try not to go too far off the rails with new rules/characters, so using the Eight there has been perfect. I didn't think I would enjoy "fluff on the table" games as much as I have. My FLGS also has occasional non-competitive events. Our summer Escalation league this year has quite a few new (or new-ish) players so we decided to do purely hobby progress/sportsmanship prizes. It's been so popular, our TO is going to have our next tournament be a friendly Beerhammer as well. I think part of the success is because we have been running ITC tournaments lately, and our turnout and competition level jumped up significantly, so this was a nice breath of fresh air.
MilkmanAl wrote: With the advent of the Drone Net, drones are pretty clearly the best source of marker lights these days.
A big point for Tetras vs Drones (especially 4x4 Drone Net units) is Leadership checks. Every dead drone means a test, and could mean snapshots next turn, or worse. Jink helps, but you commit to snapshooting, and still might break. Intercepting Markerlights is very potent, on the other hand.
MilkmanAl wrote: I've recently been playing around with a CAD-based army that exploits the stealth bubble from a Ghostkeel Wing with quite a lot of success.
This must work well to balance out the Drone Net. I love the Ghostkeel Wing as well, and have have found Tetra's low profile to work great to get a 4+ or 3+ coversave without Jinking. I always hem and haw over adding any upgrades to low cost units, but last game I tried a Disruption Pod on one Tetra in each Squadron. Worked real well together, 2+ cover all game, no Jink needed. I haven't tried Wing/Net together yet, I'll have to give it a go. What other combos have been working well with your Ghostkeel Wing?
Tetras are also still more efficient at a point-per-mark count (not by very much though) than the drone net, you don't lose individual ability if the count drops too low (if you are down to last drone team, you lose the BS3), and provide locator beacons.
Both tetras and drone networks are very potent and there is no clear answer on what is better.
Never put a Dpod on a tetra though, a 15 point upgrade to give +1 saves for a model that costs only 35 points to begin with is absurd. save the points and buy more tetras.
genuinely trying to up my knowledge here
