ZergSmasher wrote: I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...
I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.
Define "serious risk". I am confident that the reason the stormsurge is within 10" of an enemy is because quite soon the closest enemy will be 20 inches away.
Unless you roll a 6 on the d-table, you are likely trying to Pound through 12 HP which you cause at a rate of 0-3 x "X" a turn. In combat, the opposing knight will shred you (imagine pulled pork but more Tau'y) having in the previous phase shot something else, having then also just gained 2d6 additional movement you have so kindly afforded this melee monstrosity, in the subsequent phase, followed by a final D6 consolidation. Bravo
The missiles afford you a few answers, if you can get the right set-up. The driver is the tactical choice whilst the d-shotgun is the 'shiny' choice.
So put a generator on it, put it n harms way and sack up with the rest of the army to clear his way. A stormsurge isnt Bruce Lee or anything, but he aint helpless neither. I think the concern may be founded on some occassions, but not as many as youre fearing.
Jancoran wrote: So put a generator on it, put it n harms way and sack up with the rest of the army to clear his way. A stormsurge isnt Bruce Lee or anything, but he aint helpless neither. I think the concern may be founded on some occassions, but not as many as youre fearing.
Just the general odds. The Surge needs a 6 with two shots, otherwise its trying to pound through effective 12HP. The knight has two CC turns of combat to finish off the surge (his and yours), which gives it a pretty likely chance to chew through your own effective 12 wounds. In CC, the surge is only getting the benefit of stomps whilst the knight gets both a reaper chainsword (assuming this is the case) and its own stomps.
Just saying, rule of averages. I feel some occasions will be most of them.
You act as if its in a vacuum. it isn't. Lots of units to support its efforts nad situation is King so sure, there will be times to do otherwise. I dont think the "averages" favor the more expensive gun in any way I can see. Neither one is bad so it's a strategic consideration more than one of mathematical probability.
Its my position that you cannot stop the StormSurge from dying. it simply will. It's 3+ armor, its T6 and theres just a lot that can chew through that given the willpower t odo so on the opponents part. the thing to do is maximize damage while it is possible to do so, so that the enemy response is weakened and the odds of keeping it alive and active longer increases. the best offense in this case is a good offense.
Mileage will vary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grizzyzz wrote: I don't believe GMC, super heavy vehicles can be stomped
Yeah supers cant be stomped or thunderblitzed but i am pretty sure nonsuper MCs/Walkers still can be.
Tbh im kinda surprised walkers/MCs dont have a mini-stomp of their own. D3 hits instead of blasts, 1-2 does nothing, 3-5 does S4 AP- autohits and 6 does S6 AP3 autohits.
Even though i think that might make some MCs even more broken than they are lol
I think the best way to get the stormsurge to survive is to have a second one. Squadding them up is a huge deal since you can keep both of them alive significantly longer by moving the injured one to the back of the squad.
Jancoran wrote: You act as if its in a vacuum. it isn't. Lots of units to support its efforts nad situation is King so sure, there will be times to do otherwise. I dont think the "averages" favor the more expensive gun in any way I can see. Neither one is bad so it's a strategic consideration more than one of mathematical probability./quote] The premise was about getting within range to use the d-shotgun and when in range with the d-shotgun (assuming you shooting at a Knight, not a rhino), the Knight is going to end the surge - based off of averages.
The D-shotgun, being a d-weapon, lends to the idea that the surge should be going after the big baddies. Where as the driver allows you to engage anything across the board and from turn 1. The (bad) strategic consideration is the one where you are tempted to pitting a surge against things (or within range of things, the range is the crucial thing here) it maybe shouldn't.
luke1705 wrote: I think the best way to get the stormsurge to survive is to have a second one. Squadding them up is a huge deal since you can keep both of them alive significantly longer by moving the injured one to the back of the squad.
Can they innately split fire? If so, yeah I can see that. You double down and get a force multiplier. The stomps can also start adding up. I'm assuming shield gens - as otherwise things like str 8 ap 3 / grav can cause trouble.
Shield gen might as well be included in the price. Seriously, not taking a shield gen on a SS is suicide since the majority of weapons that wound it reliably also pen a 3+ save.
Vineheart01 wrote: Shield gen might as well be included in the price. Seriously, not taking a shield gen on a SS is suicide since the majority of weapons that wound it reliably also pen a 3+ save.
Eh. Comes down to meta and if you play ITC or RAW.
ITC. Yes because they don't allow toe in cover, like RAW allows.
And yes a squad can innately spitfire because they can shoot whatever they want.
Vineheart01 wrote: Shield gen might as well be included in the price. Seriously, not taking a shield gen on a SS is suicide since the majority of weapons that wound it reliably also pen a 3+ save.
Eh. Comes down to meta and if you play ITC or RAW.
ITC. Yes because they don't allow toe in cover, like RAW allows.
And yes a squad can innately spitfire because they can shoot whatever they want.
Really it doesn't make a difference. You still need the shield. You lose so much of your mobility when you're in cover. Plus when something ignores cover, you're not in a happy place. The shield is always worth the points
Vineheart01 wrote: Shield gen might as well be included in the price. Seriously, not taking a shield gen on a SS is suicide since the majority of weapons that wound it reliably also pen a 3+ save.
Eh. Comes down to meta and if you play ITC or RAW.
ITC. Yes because they don't allow toe in cover, like RAW allows.
And yes a squad can innately spitfire because they can shoot whatever they want.
Really it doesn't make a difference. You still need the shield. You lose so much of your mobility when you're in cover. Plus when something ignores cover, you're not in a happy place. The shield is always worth the points
Exalted for truth. Shield is absolutely essential, as T6 won't cut it against strong shooting. Even plasma guns only need 3's to wound and ignore your armor, and your FnP will not cut it alone. Compared to the original cost of the model, an extra 50 points is well spent on keeping its ass alive.
Grizzyzz wrote: And yes a squad can innately spitfire because they can shoot whatever they want.
If you are playing using ITC. If not, then yes, you need a Target Lock on one of them.
As for non-gmc stomps? smash. I was a bit amused to be able to smash(ID) a Demon Prince with a stormsurge before I stomped it to death.
Can you explain to me where that is in the rules? To my knowledge, the ITC didn't FAQ anything in that regard. (Two stormsurges in a unit needing to target even a single unit in common)
Target Locks is definitely overruled by the ability to splitfire their own individual weapons.
You cant even attempt to RAW that one, because the stormsurge is the only squadron GMC. Meaning the only rule we have to go on is they may target their weapons at different targets.
where do you get that?
P. 70, 'Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions given below.'
P. 67, 'Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting Phase - they must, of course fire both at the same target.'
P. 70, When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'
note the may. this indicates that RAW, the Gargantuan creatures have essentially 2 firing modes, focus fire (like MCs) or split fire. Unfortunately, it also says that you must fire each of its weapons. Did you fire off a D-missile? use an EWO? sorry, but RAW, you cannot split fire as you have weapons that cannot contribute to the fire. Sorry, but also by RAW you can only fire at a unit with a single weapon from each stormsurge if using the split fire option.
also, the 2 stormsurges would make a unit, not a squadron. There aren't actually rules for squadrons of MCs or GMCs in the rulebook.Please direct me where units can split fire when the unit lacks the ability?
carldooley wrote: where do you get that?
P. 70, 'Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions given below.'
P. 67, 'Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting Phase - they must, of course fire both at the same target.'
P. 70, When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'
note the may. this indicates that RAW, the Gargantuan creatures have essentially 2 firing modes, focus fire (like MCs) or split fire. Unfortunately, it also says that you must fire each of its weapons. Did you fire off a D-missile? use an EWO? sorry, but RAW, you cannot split fire as you have weapons that cannot contribute to the fire. Sorry, but also by RAW you can only fire at a unit with a single weapon from each stormsurge if using the split fire option.
also, the 2 stormsurges would make a unit, not a squadron. There aren't actually rules for squadrons of MCs or GMCs in the rulebook.Please direct me where units can split fire when the unit lacks the ability?
GCs/FGCs may fire as many weapons as they are armed with in the Shooting phase.
Someone's late to the party. If that's the way you want to play it man, more power to you. However, the general concensus is that a GMC can fire all of its weapons per shooting phase and may declare different targets for each weapon if it so chooses.
I also don't see anything in the GMC shooting rule that you posted stating that a GMC "must fire each of its weapons" as you stated. If you see those words, could you post them? The quote you have lacks the word "must".
GCs/FGCs may fire as many weapons as they are armed with in the Shooting phase.
Thought I would add a bit more info.
The reason for the bullet point that you are quoting is for the debate I mentioned. This point allows them to fire 'all' of their weapons which was debated since MC s could only fire two, and GMC are MC etc.. read the debate threads If you need more info . .
Just as a general consensus btw, do you guys play as them needing to declare all targets at once? Not trying to start a rules debate - I've just seen it go both ways and wondered what the norm was
i havnt heard anyone argue the 2 weapons only thing for a looooong time. Every single GMC has more than 2 guns, most of which are small-arms, the WK is the only one that doesnt have like ~5 guns but he still has 3.
Might be a daemon i dont know about that doesnt have a mass of guns but he'd be the only one.
luke1705 wrote: Just as a general consensus btw, do you guys play as them needing to declare all targets at once? Not trying to start a rules debate - I've just seen it go both ways and wondered what the norm was
I generally declare all the targets up front. That seems to make the most sense to me, in context of the rules.
So basically since the codex dropped, I've been thinking about ways to get the most out of Breachers. While I'm not sure I've done that, I do have an interesting list for you guys to mull:
Tau CAD Ethereal
4x5 Breachers - devilfish with Dpods and SMS 2 Y'vahras - EWO 1120
Ghostkeel Wing
3 Keels - EWO, VT, fusion, and CIR on all
495
Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones
224
That's 1839 all told, so there's definitely some room for moving things around. Maybe drop a VT on the Keels for EMP grenades on all the Breachers or something? Anyway, the idea is to Screen with the Fish, which can readily Jink for a 2+ cover save and are really frustrating to shoot at since they suck. You can also use them to tank shock things into flamer position for your Y'vahras. Relative to many Tau lists, you should also be in decent position for objective grabbing due to all the obsec troops. The Y'vahras are for flying around and killing everything, particularly knights, and deathstars. Duh. They're the engine that makes this list go. The Ghostkeels provide some much-needed anti-air but are mostly around to make your fish unkillable. It doesn't hurt that they can boost your Y'vahras' nova-granted 4+ cover save, too. The ethereal is mostly there to fill the obligatory HQ slot but has the spiffy bonus of making your Breachers unload 3 S6, AP3 shots each when they disembark next to something juicy. The marker drones, as I see it, are best for making sure your Y'vahras don't overheat themselves to death, though they can obviously be used to boost anything else in your list, if necessary.
Like I said, the list needs tinkering and optimizing, but I thought it was an interesting start. Any thoughts?
I like the list. It's an interesting way to go. Dfish are, I think, underestimated. They are an ObSec troop transport that is AV12 on the front (only other one I know of like that is a Wave Serpent), plus they can jink for a 3+ save in the open. And they really don't lose that much if they are forced to jink, since all they carry stock is a burst cannon. Not sure its worth it to put SMS on them, as it isn't free like on Hammerheads and Skyrays. Just pop off their built-in drones and use them as a harassment unit.
Indeed. I'm not certain about the SMS, either, but it's so useful that it's tough to pass up, even for an extra 10 points. Even when snapfiring due to a jink, you'll probably hit at least once. I plan on driving the Fish all over the freaking place, so not needing LoS, much less having to face in a certain direction, is a big plus. It's also kind of nice to bait your opponent into actually shooting at them. That said, the SMS are mostly a "just because" kind of upgrade that might have the benefit of pushing some scout unit off an objective or something. If there's a better way to invest 40 pts, I'm all ears.
luke1705 wrote: Just as a general consensus btw, do you guys play as them needing to declare all targets at once? Not trying to start a rules debate - I've just seen it go both ways and wondered what the norm was
Weapons fire MUSt by rule be resolved one gun type at a time.
luke1705 wrote: Just as a general consensus btw, do you guys play as them needing to declare all targets at once? Not trying to start a rules debate - I've just seen it go both ways and wondered what the norm was
For GC's we do, select target, select weapon, rinse repeat until all weapons have fired.
luke1705 wrote: Just as a general consensus btw, do you guys play as them needing to declare all targets at once? Not trying to start a rules debate - I've just seen it go both ways and wondered what the norm was
Weapons fire MUSt by rule be resolved one gun type at a time.
I think we went over this a few pages ago but you technically need to declare targets THEN resolve weapons one by one (theres a step process in the shooting phase)
Generally people, least around me, just say what guns theyre firing at a target rather than keep track of ~5-8 guns before firing a single one. Unless you go "ok...that didnt finish that unit off lets fire this then!" i dont think anyone would care if you dont declare at once.
luke1705 wrote: Just as a general consensus btw, do you guys play as them needing to declare all targets at once? Not trying to start a rules debate - I've just seen it go both ways and wondered what the norm was
Weapons fire MUSt by rule be resolved one gun type at a time.
I think we went over this a few pages ago but you technically need to declare targets THEN resolve weapons one by one (theres a step process in the shooting phase)
Generally people, least around me, just say what guns theyre firing at a target rather than keep track of ~5-8 guns before firing a single one. Unless you go "ok...that didnt finish that unit off lets fire this then!" i dont think anyone would care if you dont declare at once.
So technically yes as stated you should target everything first, this goes for split fire and target lock which is why the combined fire rule is a nightmare.
This prevents you from say.. one model at a target.. oh I didn't kill it.. let me shoot the next.. OK got it.. third guy will shoot something else.
Between friends talk and out, as long as your honest about it.. or say "these two are shooting that" the rest something else.. let me resolve for book keeping.. I don't think anyone would give you a hard time.
yeah for targetlocks or splitifre i just say it simo like youre suppose to because i rarely fire via targetlocks at more than 2 targets anyway (Suits firing here, drones firing here).
my SS/Ta'unar tend to fire at 3-4 targets, especially with anchors (which per rules are a completely separate firing happening immediately after the gun fired first, meaning different target and more markerlight requirements if same target). So for them i just say like i mentioned earlier what weapons im firing at one unit and leave them alone with the rest if they didnt die. Or, not use a gun if i overkilled them.
So for people running riptide wings in their competitive lists. Do you all run a CAD with it as well?
A concept I am working with is :
Riptide Wing Air Superiority CAD
However @1850 and @2000 you have 740 and 890 points left respectively, which is slightly awkward to fill up.
Why the Air Sup formation? At least in my meta I see a ton of skimmers, flyers, jetbikes, FMC, etc.. so +1 BS, auto reserves, and a free d3 markerlights is a pretty nice bonus on some flyers. Let me tell you, no one ever expects it when i put 3 flyers on the table. But this is just a concept, not sure if i will stick with it or not.
Grizzyzz wrote: So for people running riptide wings in their competitive lists. Do you all run a CAD with it as well?
A concept I am working with is :
Riptide Wing
Air Superiority
CAD
However @1850 and @2000 you have 740 and 890 points left respectively, which is slightly awkward to fill up.
Why the Air Sup formation? At least in my meta I see a ton of skimmers, flyers, jetbikes, FMC, etc.. so +1 BS, auto reserves, and a free d3 markerlights is a pretty nice bonus on some flyers. Let me tell you, no one ever expects it when i put 3 flyers on the table. But this is just a concept, not sure if i will stick with it or not.
My current (unoriginal) army is RipWing + FSE Cad for a stormsurge, Drone'O and oodles of scoring Crisis Suits.
My current (unoriginal) army is RipWing + FSE Cad for a stormsurge, Drone'O and oodles of scoring Crisis Suits.
Do you run the riptide drones with them in this formation? I think they also can fire twice per the RW bonus.. which is tempting me to use them.
A few extra BS2 shots isn't worth it, but taking a Drone makes you more resistant to grav weapons. Depends on your meta, but if you take one, take a bonding knife too!
My pure Tau 1850 list had a Riptide wing with 3 tides with intercept and fnp, the drone net, and a cad with a drone mander, strikers, yvahra, and a surge. All in 1850.
DirtyDeeds wrote: My pure Tau 1850 list had a Riptide wing with 3 tides with intercept and fnp, the drone net, and a cad with a drone mander, strikers, yvahra, and a surge. All in 1850.
I probably will have a drone net, which is why i was thinking about the riptide drones. And yes.. grav is a thing in my meta.
As Ravern said, bs2 drones for 25 points are meh. and normally I never run drones because I don't want my riptides failing that LD check ever! lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok this is what I am considering. Comes to 1850 exactly.. it is my semi-competitive list.. i say semi because I am dropping a lot of points into a Fusion blade commander which I just love to play =)
Upping this to 2k:
I am thinking of adding a single Ghostkeel with a positional relay.
Why that? Well we are prepping for NOVA, and their FAQ has any model under a blast template is targeted.. so I can use the ghostkeel to essentially prevent any extreme blasts to my forces deployed.
So how I would deploy most likely, is the ghostkeel in the center of all 4 pirahna on one end of the table.. Depending on my opponents force and deployment, i may or may not deploy Marko or the tetras. Riptides would deploy on the other side.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My warlord will most likely be marko.. keeps the aggro on the FB commander down, and also lets me split him off to run rampant solo on the table.
For an ITC list what is the best way to run the retaliation cadre, in the hunter contingent. I am currently running everything as single man units, other than single 3 man crisis team that he commander is linked to.
oz of the north wrote: For an ITC list what is the best way to run the retaliation cadre, in the hunter contingent. I am currently running everything as single man units, other than single 3 man crisis team that he commander is linked to.
So I will ask a question back to you. If you are running a Retaliation Cadre, would you consider the Dawn Blade Contingent instead? The reason I propose this comes to the the cost of filling up a Hunter Cadre (core) and also filling up a Retaliation Cadre (Core for DBC, Aux for HC)
If you do want to keep the HC, then I would recommend maybe single suits of Dual fusion blasters, possibly make that commander Marko, and use the FA slot of the hunter cadre to get the marker drones you need. The riptide I would probably run IA, Fusion, Stim.
If you have the points, I run my broadsides, HYMP, Plasma, target locks.. usually as a squad of 3... but again this gets awkward with the hunter cadre needing to also take a heavy slot (overlap in roll and points).
The reason not using the dawn blade is the aux choices, I do not have them, where I have the models for the hunter contingent. Also the +1 bs is really nice in my opinion with the 3+ units shooting at one.
oz of the north wrote: The reason not using the dawn blade is the aux choices, I do not have them, where I have the models for the hunter contingent. Also the +1 bs is really nice in my opinion with the 3+ units shooting at one.
That's cool man!
It really comes down to what is in your Core formation then? whatever that has.. your Aux need to fill in niche rolls that your core doesn't cover.. That is why i suggested the Fusion blasters.. as most of your core is going to be strike teams or breachers. Are you fielding a stormsurge?
More of a practical question here, currently i'm rocking an old GW case, one of these bad boys:
Looking for a new one suitable for carrying a dozen crisis suits, 3 Ghostkeels and 3-5 tanks. Any suggestions would be great! The old GW cases struggle a bit with the new larger models.
Edit: Or would new foam trays work instead of getting a entirely new case?
i ended up going with the pluck foam for my tau. Our suits are too funky for standard foam.
Problem is it adds up quick lol. I have about 4ft tall of 8by13" foam trays lol...... and a lot of models share a hole (like firewarriors or my piranha/devilfish)
Bryan01 wrote: More of a practical question here, currently i'm rocking an old GW case, one of these bad boys:
Looking for a new one suitable for carrying a dozen crisis suits, 3 Ghostkeels and 3-5 tanks. Any suggestions would be great! The old GW cases struggle a bit with the new larger models.
Edit: Or would new foam trays work instead of getting a entirely new case?
If you cut every other vertical support on 2 of the foam trays, you can make a viable foam case for large models like crisis and broadside suits. My cases are in my car, i'll post pics of what I mean tomorrow.
Looking for a new one suitable for carrying a dozen crisis suits, 3 Ghostkeels and 3-5 tanks. Any suggestions would be great! The old GW cases struggle a bit with the new larger models.
Edit: Or would new foam trays work instead of getting a entirely new case?
I personally am a huge fan of Battlefoam. It tends to be on the upper bound of prices when it comes to cases.. but the quality is outstanding. I have the 720 case as well as the 1520 (or something close to that # ).
Currently in my 1500 series case I have..
4 Hammerhead hulls
4 Broadsides
3 xv9s
12 crisis suits
~12 stealthsuits
3 riptides
3 ghostkeels
3 commanders
two trays of fire warriors (1" and 1.5" foam trays)
I still have about 3" of room on top where i usually put books, etc models, etc.
The 720 case is about half the size of the 1500 series.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the new FSE update gives access to all the relics.
Does it allow you to choose warlord traits from FSE "as well as" TE too??
Bryan01 wrote: More of a practical question here, currently i'm rocking an old GW case, one of these bad boys:
Looking for a new one suitable for carrying a dozen crisis suits, 3 Ghostkeels and 3-5 tanks. Any suggestions would be great! The old GW cases struggle a bit with the new larger models.
Edit: Or would new foam trays work instead of getting a entirely new case?
KR cases are another option as well. They're slightly less flexible though when you're trying to transport huge models. I my Tau army into 2 standard sized cases, but that only includes: 20 XV8s/88s, 2 Riptides, 4 Tanks, 24 Fire Warriors, 20 Kroot and bunch of Drones. The difficulty lies in getting the required height in the cases to fit tanks, and then finding other models to fill the top rows above them. Riptides tend to be best transported when disassembled at the waist, however this is tough to do retroactively and is ultimately limited by the lifespan of the pin in the waist joint. Ghostkeels could probably be transported in the same way and may only require a 1/2 thickness tray rather than a 2/3 thickness tray. I also transport my magnetised weapon/turret options seperately in a seperate ziplock bag, which is far from ideal in terms of chipping risk.
With a hard transport case, comes to about £100 with foam included.
If you really want to go cheap but effective pistol cases always do well, you just may get some strange looks when carrying multiple pistol cases into a store.
oz of the north wrote: If you really want to go cheap but effective pistol cases always do well, you just may get some strange looks when carrying multiple pistol cases into a store.
Cheers for the advice, my current case can take the 5 tank hulls and crisis suits+drones/infantry, but the Ghostkeels I imagine will require an investment in a new case.
Anyone have any tactics against Tripartite Lance + Loth w/Cents + VSG? I'll be using Riptide Wing + Dronenet + CAD w/SS. Been thinking about targeting priority and how to kill Loth before he can use the VSG + charge shenanigans.
oz of the north wrote: Outside taking their own GMC, how can tau handle superheavies, especially something like a WK.
They don't. They need the frakking Gargantuan so they can "waste" a smaller chunk of their army fighting it. It takes a lot of a Tau army to bring one big un down typically and that's just too much effort spent. The Stormsurge, just one, is enough to tip that expenditure to normal.
I'm not mad about it (though this may make me sound like I am). It's just a statement of fact. You can kill Super heavies and so on without the Surge but its just an enormous drain.
thejughead wrote: Anyone have any tactics against Tripartite Lance + Loth w/Cents + VSG? I'll be using Riptide Wing + Dronenet + CAD w/SS. Been thinking about targeting priority and how to kill Loth before he can use the VSG + charge shenanigans.
Thanks in advance.
Depending mission\setup, you markerlight the knights when outside of VSG (deepstrike some of the drones if you need ML range) and Dmissile them and hope that one or more bites the dust. Intercept the centurions if deepstriking otherwise charge them when possible with the SS and Stomp'em. Stay away from the Knights for as long as possible and pepper them one at a time.
oz of the north wrote: Outside taking their own GMC, how can tau handle superheavies, especially something like a WK.
They don't. They need the frakking Gargantuan so they can "waste" a smaller chunk of their army fighting it. It takes a lot of a Tau army to bring one big un down typically and that's just too much effort spent. The Stormsurge, just one, is enough to tip that expenditure to normal.
I'm not mad about it (though this may make me sound like I am). It's just a statement of fact. You can kill Super heavies and so on without the Surge but its just an enormous drain.
Actually I think that a solo deepstriking suit with 2 fusion guns is not awful. Yeah he's 50 points or so, but if he takes out a single hull point or wound off a monster, he's made his points back. Then any effort that the enemy army wastes shooting him is just gravy
ive rarely had a solo fusion suit not take something out. They can deepstrike pretty ballsy since small footprint and they arent that expensive for reliably popping any vehicle.
Vineheart01 wrote: ive rarely had a solo fusion suit not take something out. They can deepstrike pretty ballsy since small footprint and they arent that expensive for reliably popping any vehicle.
I had one fail recently. A dual-fusion suit, within melta range. Only one gun hit, then rolled snake eyes for armor penetration . Don't worry, it's an isolated incident. Really I think solo suits are better than spess muhreen suicide melta squad drop pods because they are so much cheaper. Only risk is its far easier to mishap.
One interesting thing I thought of recently: If you were to take a Drone Net formation, would it possibly be worth taking the special drones for the Riptide? I would say put the drones behind the suit so that the suit itself takes the hits rather than a drone buying it and forcing a morale check. I think the drone net rules say that all drones (including those outside the formation) get BS3 and some other buffs. I don't actually have the Mont'ka book, so I can't check up on it. I might at least try it in casual games.
Vineheart01 wrote: ive rarely had a solo fusion suit not take something out. They can deepstrike pretty ballsy since small footprint and they arent that expensive for reliably popping any vehicle.
Well they arent JUSt for killing. They are for ablating enemy damage and controlling enemy movement to a lesser extent.
oz of the north wrote: It says all drones, whether in formation or not. Does not indicate whether this applies to only friendlies or not.
Yep you are right.. wow that is pretty crazy. I am really surprised it was written that way when typically everything is "army" focused. Definitely makes team games interesting.
Completely tangent to that.. yesterday was a great day for my collection. Two riptides and a stormsurge showed up on my front door =)
ive been playing some large games with my ta'unar lately. It feels so damn weird fielding 2 GMCs and 6 MCs even in a 6k game lol.
One thing i can say for sure, its pretty much impossible to do it at low points but if you can field both riptide and ghostkeel wings its annoying as hell to deal with. Riptide wing suddenly has Stealth, and since they look over almost all terrain they tend to have a better cover than their invul lol.
Has anyone tried out Frankie's list with the riptide wing and double stormsurge? I am going back and forth between that and double stormsurge with 2 Y'Havra's. Stims on all either way. I think if the Y'Havra had 5 wounds I would lean towards that but the nova re-roll is just too good with the riptide wing
luke1705 wrote: Has anyone tried out Frankie's list with the riptide wing and double stormsurge? I am going back and forth between that and double stormsurge with 2 Y'Havra's. Stims on all either way. I think if the Y'Havra had 5 wounds I would lean towards that but the nova re-roll is just too good with the riptide wing
The only issue comes down to what rule FAQ you are using. If you are using ITC, then you are restricted to only having one unit. Of which in this latest poll you may have multiple SS, but just know you can't take the Formation that is (2 SS and 1 GK) for example.
Since I finally have one myself! I am finding a need to redo my lists trying to get one in... it is a little awkward if running a Dawn Blade Retaliation Core.
luke1705 wrote: Has anyone tried out Frankie's list with the riptide wing and double stormsurge? I am going back and forth between that and double stormsurge with 2 Y'Havra's. Stims on all either way. I think if the Y'Havra had 5 wounds I would lean towards that but the nova re-roll is just too good with the riptide wing
The only issue comes down to what rule FAQ you are using. If you are using ITC, then you are restricted to only having one unit. Of which in this latest poll you may have multiple SS, but just know you can't take the Formation that is (2 SS and 1 GK) for example.
Since I finally have one myself! I am finding a need to redo my lists trying to get one in... it is a little awkward if running a Dawn Blade Retaliation Core.
The literal only reason you would want two units would be for the added board control. And I guess maybe for overkill later in the game. But being able to shuffle around the wounds is so clutch. And the formation bonus is so bad. I don't think I would ever field 2 solo units over 1 unit of 2
Took the Tau Empire to an ITC tournament. Lost the final game 6-5. So close!
Decided to try the Hunter Contingent. Kind of ended up costing me the last game, but the utility of running and firing WAS cool. I have always felt that Objective Secured units are really important. My feelings on that matter were pretty well confirmed again, as they have been in the past.
Nonetheless, the army did well and vied for the top spot The final game was against a Jetbike+Wraith Knight + Riptide Wing. I won Maelstrom, He won the Kill Points (by one) and so it came down to Tertiaries. Both had First Strike, Neither Warlord was gone. So really it was just the King of the Hill that won it for him.
May I just say that the new way the ITC is doing their objectives stinks if it works the way it appears to. If you dont already know, I'll explain:
In essence, you don't roll for your objectives until your player turn. This is a big deal and changes a LOT. You also roll 3 dice, and choose two. This makes it a LOT less random so you start to question why even do it at that point? But moving on, that isn't the main point. The main point is that you can't actually score your objectives until the beginning of your NEXT turn.
In a TIMED event this matters because the guy going first may not realize (at top of turn) hes playing his last turn and may take unnecessary risks to take his rolled objectives which he will never actually benefit from, while the guy going second will no doubt know it is his last round.
Also the person going second doesn't even need to TRY for Maelstrom points. There's literally no point for him. And POTENTIALLY depending on where the clock is when player A starts, there may ALSO be no point to HIM trying to get Maelstrom objectives in HIS last turn.
This creates the very real possibility that Maelstrom Objectives simply don't matter in the last round, I don't like that at all. Just saying, its already being somewhat marginalized by rolling three dice, but in addition, this mechanic? Meh.
yeah i dont like the itc maelstrom objectives. I dont play the tournaments but i play against a couple friends who do. Almost every game i consistently roll the objectives in the opponent's side of the table, which is impossible for tau to hold without suiciding in there or clearing most of the army first. Meanwhile he rolls his own objectives, so 3-4 turns i get 0 points and he gets 1-2 each round.
Atleast with the cards, the chances of getting the objectives on the other side of the table are minimal because theres a buttload of non-objective cards to score. I'd rather have to declare a challenge than plow through 5 units of necron stuff to hold his objective. Not even my orks could pull that off thanks to necron cheese that is reanimation protocol (had a single squad of warriors stall 7 powerklaws, including my boss, for 4 assault phases. The frack? and i wasnt rolling bad)
Jancoran wrote: Took the Tau Empire to an ITC tournament. Lost the final game 6-5. So close!
Decided to try the Hunter Contingent. Kind of ended up costing me the last game, but the utility of running and firing WAS cool. I have always felt that Objective Secured units are really important. My feelings on that matter were pretty well confirmed again, as they have been in the past.
Nonetheless, the army did well and vied for the top spot The final game was against a Jetbike+Wraith Knight + Riptide Wing. I won Maelstrom, He won the Kill Points (by one) and so it came down to Tertiaries. Both had First Strike, Neither Warlord was gone. So really it was just the King of the Hill that won it for him.
May I just say that the new way the ITC is doing their objectives stinks if it works the way it appears to. If you dont already know, I'll explain:
In essence, you don't roll for your objectives until your player turn. This is a big deal and changes a LOT. You also roll 3 dice, and choose two. This makes it a LOT less random so you start to question why even do it at that point? But moving on, that isn't the main point. The main point is that you can't actually score your objectives until the beginning of your NEXT turn.
In a TIMED event this matters because the guy going first may not realize (at top of turn) hes playing his last turn and may take unnecessary risks to take his rolled objectives which he will never actually benefit from, while the guy going second will no doubt know it is his last round.
Also the person going second doesn't even need to TRY for Maelstrom points. There's literally no point for him. And POTENTIALLY depending on where the clock is when player A starts, there may ALSO be no point to HIM trying to get Maelstrom objectives in HIS last turn.
This creates the very real possibility that Maelstrom Objectives simply don't matter in the last round, I don't like that at all. Just saying, its already being somewhat marginalized by rolling three dice, but in addition, this mechanic? Meh.
Twasn't awesome.
Would love to see what list you took (unless I missed it previously)
he goes on the offensive with his pathfinders. If youre not using them for marker platforms, might as well get the drones because theyre very good additions.
Kinda wish i could get that anti-charge mechanic in other ways lol.
I've actually been toying with the idea of putting Darkstrider with a unit of 10 breachers in a Devilfish. I think that unit could make an excellent MC/GMC hunting tool. The main problem I can see is that it's a lot of points (almost 300 depending on how much gear you put on the 'fish).
I was wondering with crisis suits fusion gun teams with two suits is it better to take a shield drone to make wiping them out less likely or spend points other places
Oldmike wrote: I was wondering with crisis suits fusion gun teams with two suits is it better to take a shield drone to make wiping them out less likely or spend points other places
Keep em as cheap as possible. Split the two squads into one squad if you have a spare troop slot. You can target 2 things and you're half as likely to mishap
Only down side is 2 kill points, but it's well worth the tradeoff IMO. Make sure you grab 2 fusion guns for each one
if you have points, putting a drone on a crisis bomb isnt bad. Yes it wil cause a leadership but a solo suit has much, much greater threats than a potential LD test.
1. Can now wound Wraithknights on a 5+ with AP 1 Rail Rifles.
2. Unit now effectively puts an extra D3 + D6 inches between itself and a unit that wants to charge it.
3. More ablative wounds for the unit itself.
4. Adds another highly accurate markerlight to the unit if needed (rarely will be).
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Oldmike wrote: I was wondering with crisis suits fusion gun teams with two suits is it better to take a shield drone to make wiping them out less likely or spend points other places
I like taking one shield drone in my Fusion Crisis teams.
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Vineheart01 wrote: he goes on the offensive with his pathfinders. If youre not using them for marker platforms, might as well get the drones because theyre very good additions.
Kinda wish i could get that anti-charge mechanic in other ways lol.
I do indeed use my Pathfinders offensively. They are potent offensive weapons for sure.
They aso allow the Kroot to come out on the enemy rear table edge which is fun. Think Ork Kommandos only...Kroot!
They provide tank killing ability, they provide anti-personell ability, and they play to my general philosophy of positional dominance. Their Devilfish adds a lot to their defensive ability and of course the Grav Wave Generator saved the unit last tournament on two occassions, setting the enemy up right in front of my fussilade.
I am quite a fan. There is a formation I have even considered, the infiltration Cadre. The tactic there is to present the Piranha as a target and dare the enemy to destroy it in turn one. This triggers all reserves to come on the board the very next turn, which means if you're going second and they go for the easy First Blood, the entire Tau force could show up turn one.
More interesting than this application is that this also means you can safely deploy ONLY one unit on the board with no fear of auto losing if Null Deployment is your plan, zero consequences. Awesome? I think yes!
Now for this to truly work well, you need to be comfortable using Pathfinders as offensive weapons in the first place. True story: I am. You also need to be excited by Stealth Suits in your force. Two units is a pretty healthy number of them so you gotta commit there.
The other Formation that wields the might of the Pathfinder onslought (yeah I said it) Is the Ranged Support Cadre. I personally found this one interesting only in the sense that some people still use Pathfinders as Markerlight caddies. i generally would say don't do it except as a third option, but if you wanted to, you definitely could use this and basically your Broadsides get unlimitd range overwatch to protect them from charges. Since they can infiltrate and cannot fire anything BUT their Markerlights and still stay Shrouded, this is nifty for two reasons. First, the Markerlights count for Double when used by Broadsides and second, the GravWave Drone could nullify the value of the charge anyways. This is a really fun one to think about even though I see it as being a really limited option.
ZergSmasher wrote:I've actually been toying with the idea of putting Darkstrider with a unit of 10 breachers in a Devilfish. I think that unit could make an excellent MC/GMC hunting tool. The main problem I can see is that it's a lot of points (almost 300 depending on how much gear you put on the 'fish).
Fortunately breachers can get that 5++... otherwise 1 heavy flamer and the entire squad is gone =/
Vineheart01 wrote:he goes on the offensive with his pathfinders. If youre not using them for marker platforms, might as well get the drones because theyre very good additions. Kinda wish i could get that anti-charge mechanic in other ways lol.
I remember all the debates that were had now
Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually tried outflanking pathfinders in a game a few weeks ago.
I had 2 teams of 6, with 3 rail rifles in each..
They pretty much whiffed.. killed only a couple marines, just not high enough BS to be consistent... at least for my tastes.
Yeah, if I want a mediocre amount of S6 shooting, I'll just take some plasma rifle Crisis suits.
What do the Pathfinders even offer?
Killing AV11? Not a problem for us..
Shooting Wraithknights? Even at BS10 they land two wounds on average - with Darkstrider and in Rapidfire!
Hard to charge? Sure, but at T3 and 5+ save there isn't an army in the game who can't shoot them off the table.
Oldmike wrote: I was wondering with crisis suits fusion gun teams with two suits is it better to take a shield drone to make wiping them out less likely or spend points other places
Keep em as cheap as possible. Split the two squads into one squad if you have a spare troop slot. You can target 2 things and you're half as likely to mishap
Only down side is 2 kill points, but it's well worth the tradeoff IMO. Make sure you grab 2 fusion guns for each one
For only five extra points per solo suit I'd recommend making one of the Fusion Blasters twin-linked. That 5 points is worth the increase in accuracy, I think.
If you're taking a larger unit then have one with the TL-FB+FB and the others with 2FBs and a target lock. Same points cost per model but slightly increases the accuracy of the overall unit, until the twin-linked model dies.
I actually tried outflanking pathfinders in a game a few weeks ago.
I had 2 teams of 6, with 3 rail rifles in each..
They pretty much whiffed.. killed only a couple marines, just not high enough BS to be consistent... at least for my tastes.
I've posted considerable commentarty on that question actually. First, you need the Drones. Without them you're not "trying" this unit at all. Like all ideas, one half of it won't do.
Second, like everything the Tau do, you need to look through the lens of Markerlight support. They hit just fine and usually end their target. Further, they are often obscured or invisible to asecond potential attacker and distances are a thing.
The WraithKnight is an exception to most rules but the fact that it can be harmed is notable. I'm not suggesting you go hunting a Wraith Knight with them. I'm telling you they can contribute there with DarkStriders help. I did indeed win a tournament with that combination and went 5-0 at a 100 person tournament though that one was comp'd so count it or don't.
It sounds like you might have left their Devilfish at home. Don't. Its a vital part of the equation with their use. It provides the essential cover they need so that they can go to ground after firing. Going to ground is part of the thinking wit hthis list if you look at it more closely.
Pathfinders were an unexpected find for me quite a few years ago. I decided in 5E to see what Outflanking was like with them. They were terrifying in 5E. i liked it so much i tried them ion 6E. Same results. in 7E? They continue to put me at top table.
They are an unorthodox unit to be sure and you cannot rely on their sense of timing. But part of the thinking with them is that your enemy should be weaker and the flank should be turned by the time they arrive. So with a turned flank, the Pathfinders are in CONSIDERABLY less jeopardy. I'll go one step further and say that it is rare for an enemy to have a great answer because they hit like a truck, go to ground and let Drones take the worstr of it, then immediately pop back up and blast yet another unit away. At this stage the flank is turned so far away that all they need do is hop in and jet like the wind for a possible third volley. Naturally people will want to kill them but with what? artillery is going to get a healthy dose of fire from them before getting the chance. So yes, a barrage that ignores cover would be ideal. Those are a thing. So we know those are the first targets we must hit BEFORE the Pathfinders arrive. Makes priorities simple right?
i cant foresee every battlefield and every enemy but I think thats also where Pathfinders shine. Once you see the enemy and the battlefield you can decide: Scout? Outflank? Normal Deploy? The choices allow for any terrain to be taken advantage of. The eenmy has to react to what's there, with no way of reacting to what may or may not come in that turn nor will they know exactly where. that funnels the enemy to the center and that makes the flank much easier to turn. Make sense?
Its the usual synergy of the units at work that you expect from the Tau Empire!
We've been through this offensive Pathfinder thing ad nauseam, but just for the hell of it and for the newer players looking for army comp thoughts, here are a few things in the codex that cost an amount similar to the 2 Pathfinder units above:
- OSC with 2 Ghostkeels
- decked-out Stormsurge and 100 points of whatever
- 10 crisis suits with dual melta/CIB/plasma
- Riptide Wing
- 7 Broadsides
- 3-4 units of Breachers in Devilfish, depending on upgrades
- 55 Fire warriors
Too bad you can't take the Puretide chip on a Coldstar commander. THAT would be sweet! One thing I do wonder is whether people ever run a Commander as an offensive character rather than a Buffmander or Mark'O. I was thinking maybe a build like 2x Missile Pod/Cyclic Ion Blaster, Shield Generator, Stim Injector, Iridium Suit, Puretide Chip. Put him in a unit of Crisis Bodyguards or regular Crisis suits and kill stuff. Is this possibly worth trying? Or is this basically the same as the old Farsight Bomb?
ZergSmasher wrote: Too bad you can't take the Puretide chip on a Coldstar commander. THAT would be sweet! One thing I do wonder is whether people ever run a Commander as an offensive character rather than a Buffmander or Mark'O. I was thinking maybe a build like 2x Missile Pod/Cyclic Ion Blaster, Shield Generator, Stim Injector, Iridium Suit, Puretide Chip. Put him in a unit of Crisis Bodyguards or regular Crisis suits and kill stuff. Is this possibly worth trying? Or is this basically the same as the old Farsight Bomb?
Surely 2x Missile Pods, drone controller, target lock & PEN is a pretty decent offensive commander?
I mean, the two missile pods without the PEN are lack lustre (as in Okay) but with, becomes pretty reliable. Also you can start charging in str5/6 attacks (right?).
I'm going to be running a Fusion Blade/VRT/Stim commander with Talisman/Onager/Iridium/PEN in a unit of three Flamer Suits for fun. I'll see how it goes.
raverrn wrote: I'm going to be running a Fusion Blade/VRT/Stim commander with Talisman/Onager/Iridium/PEN in a unit of three Flamer Suits for fun. I'll see how it goes.
That is the point - that you can get it all done for less points if you diversify.
But that horse is beyond dead. Glad that it's working for you
Apparently not dead.
This is a tactica thread. it is where people theoretically come to learn. Theoretically.
If you are coming here to tell me the success I'm enjoying and have enjoyed with it isn't real, you'd be lying. So for those who want to learn how to use MORE of their codex and stop relying on crutches, i think the Pathfinders are pretty relevant discussion pieces.
Again: None of the things on that list do what the Pathfinders do. Also you GROSSLY overstated their cost.
The Pathfinder unit I described is 214 points. it does 2.22 + 4.16 unsaved wounds to a MEQ unit on the round it appears, can Pin them and makes a counter charge by that unit all but infeasible, It doesn't die the next turn. So it can do it again with even less resistence, plus it's scoring objectives Or it can kill a tank squadron.
Is your Riptide going to kill a tank Squadron in one round? Is your Crisis team going to last for two rounds when it has to drop so much closer to danger? What unit on that list can do ALL the things the Pathfinders can do?
I am not here to dissuade anyone from doing other things. Far from it. I do other things also, because I have a lot of models. But I can absolutely show you that its an incredibly flexible weapon that is worth the expenditure. Its almost like not having to chose what you are going to do before you see the enemy and terrain. Tools for anti-tank, anit-horde, anti-elite, and blunting assaults. They can assist other units if it comes to it with markerlights although thats not really what they do generaly in this kind of build.
214 points x 2 + 100 for Darkstrider? That's pretty spot on for 540 for a Riptide wing. Which will, absolutely, do anything your Pathfinders do. And it will do it turn 1. And turns 3-7 because it won't be wiped out by a Whirlwind, Warp Spider or wet sneeze.
With the cutthroat tournament meta I'm in, I don't think those Pathfinders would work for me. A lot of the local talent play at Adepticon and other GTs, and they use lists that can compete in those GTs in our local tournaments. These guys are good. I'm not sure that Pathfinder unit would hold up around here. I do like the idea though, and it is nice to see people thinking outside the box. I might just have to give the unit a try at least in casual play and see how it works!
One thing I'm curious about in your list; how did you squeeze Aun'va into a HC? You would have to take a Contingent Headquarters and therefore a second Commander and a Crisis Bodyguard team. Or is that the part of the list that you forgot? Don't take this question the wrong way, I am genuinely curious.
I didn't use Dark Strider. His use was a side comment. He also is not a part of the unit so counting him as a part of their cost is an unfair comparison. Like all HQ's, he serves like they all do, as force augments. The unit itself is 214. Who joins it or doesn't isn't adding to THEIR cost.
My last opponent took a Riptide wing, not just two. How ironic you should mention that.
When you look objectively at what the Pathfinders did for me it was simply this: they handed me the Maelstrom mission and put me within that one 3+ invul Riptide save of winning. His Wraithknight hit all four times in the last round and wounded all four times. I failed one too many saves and he took Primary and forced it to Tertiaries. Done. Sometimes the dice just hate you. One save away from victory. it is what it is. It was a good game. I helped him out by no-braining it and rolling for Nova on my Riptide...who had four wounds already. oops. that was costly too. And hilarious. But mostly costly. I lost focus there and... yeah...
The Pathfinders tore up three bike Squads and wounded the Command squad and WraithKnight, plus gobbled up objective points while my Riptides took the other two bike squads out (Because: markerlights).
Really quite good.. He never killed either unit nor the Devilfish. His command squad tore into the Pathfinders at games end with their guns but didn't break them (Drones be praised) and that's where it stood at the end.
So. Pretty pleased with the results. not the end result but the performance of the Pathfinders.
ZergSmasher wrote: With the cutthroat tournament meta I'm in, I don't think those Pathfinders would work for me. A lot of the local talent play at Adepticon and other GTs, and they use lists that can compete in those GTs in our local tournaments. These guys are good. I'm not sure that Pathfinder unit would hold up around here. I do like the idea though, and it is nice to see people thinking outside the box. I might just have to give the unit a try at least in casual play and see how it works!
yip, its definitely outside the box. I am constantly attempting to actually learn the codex. So much has come at us so fast that there's a lot of ground to explore just in the new formations.
As for the meta: we are on the Portland to Seattle trail. Believe me when I say that I know what you mean. I suggest trying this in casual games until you get more comfortable. it will also matter how they treat Allied Detachments in your area. The Bomber is an easy thing to trade out if you need to.
I am actually going to run this as a CAD. As I mentioned the loss of Objective Secured is just too painful. I see Necron ecurions losing all the time because of that CAD's are cooler and with outflanking troops, its especially cool.
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raverrn wrote: And a Riptide Wing would have picked up the Wraithknight in one shooting phase, with no Markerlight support.
They were on the same side. Lol. So that's sort of irrelevant don't you think? If you're suggesting that his could of, you'd be wrong. he had ion Accelerators on his. So no. Not really.
If someone is so bold as to take the alternative weapon which is fine, he loses a ton of range and must REALLY take big risks to do their damage. But sure? Could also happen.
Alternatively with enough range and mobility you can simply avoid the Wraith Knight for most of the game and destroy every biker he has, killing his mobility and scoring power. I like that idea also.
So as you say, there ARE more ways to get it done. Just don't underestimate the damage the Riptides are more likely to take when they do that. For example he wanted to stay out of my Sniper Drones Rapid Fire Range and away from the sides where the Outflanking Pathfinders would come. With Aun'Va, that's a lot of Sniper shots. Coupled with his Nova wounds... it adds up.
So as i mentioned, it funnels the enemy to the center...which allows you to turn the flank. It protects you a fair amount when you do that.
Not the only way to go. Just going over the virtues of this way. And they are many.
raverrn wrote: I'm going to be running a Fusion Blade/VRT/Stim commander with Talisman/Onager/Iridium/PEN in a unit of three Flamer Suits for fun. I'll see how it goes.
My current casual commander is:
Iridium, Neuro web, puretide, Fuson Blades, Talismon, Stim, VRT. The onager is kinda redundant (i suppose a fair backup incase you roll a 1 on the blade after combat though). Personally, I usually start him in with my broadsides (Retaliation Cadre), or a unit of plasma crisis.
In both cases, all the puretide buffs confer to the unit, so it can be really good to throw dice with rerolls to hit and wound (broads twin linked).
------------------
In terms of pathfinders, no i did not put them in a devilfish or take their drones. I have learned long ago not to "kit" out my units too much. I prefer to field more squads or spread upgrades. That is my personal list building style. For me... devilfish are an auto 100 points or 110 with the sms.. Once I fill in the pathfinders as you stated i'm over 200 points and that is just alot of points to me especially for a unit that yeah.. can go to ground.. but in the end is t3 with a 5+ save. To many counters to that.
Plus, if your in the most effective range your 15" from your target.. which is plenty close enough to be retaliated (not necessarily charged)
ZergSmasher wrote: Too bad you can't take the Puretide chip on a Coldstar commander. THAT would be sweet! One thing I do wonder is whether people ever run a Commander as an offensive character rather than a Buffmander or Mark'O. I was thinking maybe a build like 2x Missile Pod/Cyclic Ion Blaster, Shield Generator, Stim Injector, Iridium Suit, Puretide Chip. Put him in a unit of Crisis Bodyguards or regular Crisis suits and kill stuff. Is this possibly worth trying? Or is this basically the same as the old Farsight Bomb?
There's no reason you can't stick a Commander with a Bodyguard or two and give the latter the buffing wargear, thus allowing you to use his BS.
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In terms of pathfinders, no i did not put them in a devilfish or take their drones. I have learned long ago not to "kit" out my units too much. I prefer to field more squads or spread upgrades. That is my personal list building style. For me... devilfish are an auto 100 points or 110 with the sms.. Once I fill in the pathfinders as you stated i'm over 200 points and that is just alot of points to me especially for a unit that yeah.. can go to ground.. but in the end is t3 with a 5+ save. To many counters to that.
Plus, if your in the most effective range your 15" from your target.. which is plenty close enough to be retaliated (not necessarily charged)
I dont think so. 15"...Plus the inches you create by killing the enemy. So it ends up being very difficult for anyone to charge you (Grav wave added to that? good times). Moreover, while SOME units may be close enough to shoot you, theres a reason for those drones. And if they want to kill Pathfinders instead of my Riptides OR my Marker Drones I'd say there are worse fates.
Anyone can be retaliated against. That's not a disqualifyng factor for any unit. But this one does a very good job of keeping its assailants at a healthy distance and its a meat grinder if they come in on them.
I'm sure this has popped up before, but anyone running a culexus assassin? I can just about fit one in with some trimming of my list, but without an imperial transport (rhino/drop pod), I'm not sure about how good he is?
I've run into armies heavy on psykers a few times, and not having a defense bar shoot them first kinda sucks.
Bryan01 wrote: I'm sure this has popped up before, but anyone running a culexus assassin? I can just about fit one in with some trimming of my list, but without an imperial transport (rhino/drop pod), I'm not sure about how good he is?
I've run into armies heavy on psykers a few times, and not having a defense bar shoot them first kinda sucks.
People have used it and it can be extremely effective at shutting out psychers since Tau don't have a presence in that phase. I say if you have room, absolutely try it out. Doesn't the unit have infiltrate? you don't need a transport imo.
You know what you should do because you like your pathfinders.
Run the Ghostkeel wing. Since you have the recon drones they have locator beacons.. have your pathfinders flank in then drop your ghostkeel right in on them.. now your pathfinders have stealth on top of cover, and if you go to ground your easy getting 2+ cover saves. Now you have the ghost near by who are better at taking out tougher threats as well.
Yaya. Now that sounds like a good idea. I own three Ghostkeels (have only proxied them because I am slow and I hate the painting). I could get off my lazy arse and actually finish building them I suppose.
Yeah the assassins have infiltrate, only worry is that psykers if mobile can get away pretty fast from a guy on foot or deploy via other means (deepstrike etc).
Still, would be nice to have an option, other then shoot harder vs psykers.
Bryan01 wrote: Yeah the assassins have infiltrate, only worry is that psykers if mobile can get away pretty fast from a guy on foot or deploy via other means (deepstrike etc).
Still, would be nice to have an option, other then shoot harder vs psykers.
It will take practice to get a good feel for it. What I would do is keep him nearish my core force. Basically you want to prevent the enemy psychers from being able to get close to your main force. It is less offensive and more defensive if you know what i mean.
Take playing GKs for example.. your culexus is denying a 24" bubble of the board essentially which is HUGE .. esspecially if he wants to drop in somewhere near there.
Against Eldar you can basically deny a spot of the board for his seer council to bounce too, which helps you control mobility.
The culexus is a board control tool. As awesome of a gun he has, I am unsure how often you will be able to use it to full effect.
Hey just want to make sure I'm playing this the way that most people do/the right way of possible:
Markerlights and the stormsurge - if I have some markerlights on unit A and the surge boosts his BS to 5, those markerlights don't affect any guns that he fires at unit B, right? Or am I doing it wrong and they just flat increase his BS for the duration of the shooting phase at all targets?
luke1705 wrote: Hey just want to make sure I'm playing this the way that most people do/the right way of possible:
Markerlights and the stormsurge - if I have some markerlights on unit A and the surge boosts his BS to 5, those markerlights don't affect any guns that he fires at unit B, right? Or am I doing it wrong and they just flat increase his BS for the duration of the shooting phase at all targets?
only at the selected target. the other targets use his original BS.
which was kind of funny in my last game. played against a Swarmlord that was able to consistently use Paroxysm to drop my stormsurge's BS to zero, which I was then able to use markerlights to increase to a reasonable level.
and on the subject of assassins. . . whichever you use is a desperate ally. keep more than 6 inches away unless you are comfortable in possibly not being able to do anything on your turn with anything close.
I asked this another thread but figured I would seek input here as well. I have been thinking about Frankie's double Stormsurge list and wondering how it would perform if you dropped the riptide wing and replaced it with another Stormsurge and a Yvara. The list would otherwise look the same:
HQ: drone mander, 2 marker drones
Troops: 2 x 1 crisis suits
FA: 6 marker drones, Yvara with fnp LoW: 3 x Stormsurge (driver, ats, ewo)
that list has absolutely no board presence. You would never win objectives, you'd be forced to table your opponent damn near every game.
SS is a GMC but hes also still in a unit. Units, GMC or not, are only allowed to hold 1 objective. Guarantee the solo crisis suits arent holding anything since a solo suit isnt hard to get rid of and the y'vahra's guns are wayyyy too short range to hold anything reliably.
That leaves the Commander and his drone blob, giving you a potential 2 objectives you can reliably hold until he gets shot off the board since hes your only marker source.
What I have found with the Culexus is that it forces a decision by my opponent. Even if they go first, they have to decide if they want their blessings, either avoiding the Culexus dead zone during movement ("pushing" them to a flank), or saying "screw that" and giving up the protection of Invis/Sanctuary/Endourance/Fortune, etc. Even if they take him out in the shooting phase top of turn 1, he just forced an ultimatum down their throat. That has been the least he ever did for me, and that is huge.
Often he really shines when I'm facing opponents with no Psykers, as they tend to ignore him. The Culexus is still a beast in combat, ignoring armor and getting Instant Death on 6s to wound. He's tons of fun for a reasonable price tag.
p.s. NEVER forget to throw his grenades and force a Perils at -3 Ld. Lots of laughs to be had!
Hello, all. I'm new to the forum but have lurked for years. I played a lot of 6th but only a bit of 7th, before rage quitting due to old serpent spam. I played mainly mech list, as that's what I have painted, and the old serpent shield made half of my list almost useless.
I am re-entering the hobby and have decided to paint up a new army for the summer-fall tourney scene in NE USA. As I own 2 unopened riptides and two unopened pathfinder boxes, I've decided to base the army around the finders, as the riptide wing is almost an auto include in tough tourneys. As is the surge, imho.
So I've been putting quite a bit of thought into how to get the most out of 20 finders, and Darkstrider, since he doesn't get much love.
First, a bit of background on my attempts at outflanking lists. I started toying with pos relay gimmick outflank lists in 6th, and while I found them fun, and my opponents did as well, the 50% on board at start rule crippled the playstyle. Then seventh came along and I found a new interest in it, as that rule was removed. Unfortunately, I found that the reserve rolls still could make or break the game for me, so I felt it just wasn't a tourney level style of play. Granted , my local meta had yet to embrace mealstrom, so the strength of shifty scoring units went unreallized.
Now enter the new infiltration cadre formation. This formation has given this playstyle a huge boost. It remains to be seen how clever opponents decide to deal with that first turn, as I haven't seen anyone trying it yet in batreps.
So, if using this formation, I feel one should have a very heavy amount of reserves (obviously), to justify the cost. That said, luckily five of the six units in the formation have the ability to outflank. Also, those same units all have the option to take pos relays, so there should be at least one or two in there. I like the stealths, as it's a cheaper buy, and their infiltrate and mobility can be used to jet towards the opponents back edge on turn 1, making them even juicier bait. I believe the key to using this formation will be understanding which of these units to use or combine together to bait the specific army you are against. I can think of too many scenarios to get into now myself.
The next key to the outflank list is having the long range fire power to force you're opponent to come to you. You have to draw out the enemy force so that when the outflankers arrive they can consolidate their fire on one section of the enemy's army that has either the best chance at turning our lines, or those sections that have the least potential to inflict return damage. Basically, you have to think of the list as a null deploy counter strike. The biggest strength of this style, and what seperates it from deep strike heavy lists is the precision deployment of the pos relays over deep striking. Believe me when I say it makes a huge difference. It is not difficult for us to have all four board edges viable for deployment, and indeed this style of list should have enough redundencies of pos relays to ensure it always has that option.
Anyway, perhaps posting the sample list I was considering building for tourneys will help with understanding my ramblings on this subject.
With this list you have three parts, the bait (most likely Piranha or Stealth team. I would keep at least one Stealth team in reserve for that relay), the firebase, and the ambush party.
The bait depends on the enemy. The firebase can either start on the table with the markers if needed, but most likely you gave up first turn or your opponent opted to take it, so you null deploy and force the bait kill. In this case your opponent will not have a focal point to charge his troops at, and my experience is that he will either play safe and stay huddled up, allowing you to deploy your firebase with the best ratio for damage out vs damage in, or he will committ to storming at your deployment zone in a more spread out fashion trying to secure as many objectives as he can early on. In this case you concentrate everything on one section of his army and deal a crippling blow that leaves them playing catch up the rest of the game.
Now the outflankers' role is one of two things. First, they can make a play for a backfield firebase of the enemy. This ideally cause your opponent to redirect movement towards his own backfield, weakening the push he was making for your firebase and pulling his force in two on YOUR terms, and losing usefulness that turn of the units thus redirected.
Second, and I found this was more often the case, I would use them to outflank on my strong table side, helping the firebase crush the front most threatening units. This ideally leaves my opponents with a crippled charge into a now much larger and closely concentrated force. "Turning the Flank" as described by Jancoran earlier. Never used pathfinders in this role before, but I've used 40 Kroot to do it plenty.
I feel this tactic has a strong potential for competative play. It won't out shoot the strongest of lists, but it has the tools and tricks for an extremely accurate counter strike. Pathfinders in this list perform the role of crisis suits, with a more precise method of attacking those exploitable points in your opponents army, at the trade off of being less mobile and resilient after their strike.
I feel that the options for army building are more abundant than ever before, and all armies are still experimenting with the new format of 7th. I remember the days of 3rd edition (when I started) and the multitude of deployment techniques used by various armies. Drop guard, turn 1 attack genestealers, infiltrating havoc squad lists, "ninja" tau where the game was won or lost on your 4th turn drop.... I feel we have been stuck in napoleonic warfare mode since 5th, but if GW keeps writing formations like this, I can see these lists beginning to turn that boring style of play around. One can only hope...
Looks to me like you could get a hunter cadre with minor tweaking. I might try that over the CAD for more efficient markerlights, especially since your markerlights don't have any added durability. Once they're gone, they're gone
Plainshow wrote: p.s. NEVER forget to throw his grenades and force a Perils at -3 Ld. Lots of laughs to be had!
I did this with a Culexus and my opponent's damn Tzeentch Daemon Prince rolled a 6 on his Perils result and then made the morale check, becoming Super Saiyan. However, I then shot that prince off the board (he kept rolling 2's on his Invulnerable Save, which meant no rerolls).
luke1705 wrote: Looks to me like you could get a hunter cadre with minor tweaking. I might try that over the CAD for more efficient markerlights, especially since your markerlights don't have any added durability. Once they're gone, they're gone
I will admit Darkstrider is there as a fluffy HQ tax. A 93pt Mark'O would benefit the list much more. But then again, so would 9 riptides, which crushed at the last tourney in my former local meta. Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. The marker drones are the marker source, and the net is the obvious first choice for markerlights now.
That said, I do not want to keep creating the same autoplay net lists. That cycle needs to end, and it will take people stepping away from those tired ideas to force that change. I believe that GW is trying to balance it in the only way feasible for the company. They can't backtrack too much on already sold merchandise, they just have to keep expanding. "If you can't find a way out...find one further in" and what-not. Now you'll say "That doesn't bring balance!". Doesn't it? I believe it has made "Take all comers" lists obsolete, and that is sad in it's own way. But the paper rock scissors match it is becoming may just move people out of this formula of first turn shoot outs, second turn charges, roll dice until game ends. Honestly, the pos relay and infiltration cadre makes us one of the prime candidates for moving this new era forward, but it will take some of us playing tourneys with the idea of not winning, but throwing randomness into the meta to shake up the dominant gimmick lists. GW gave us the tools to change the flyer game and we did. That neutralizing force was perhaps a bit more obvious, but I feel we all are just beginning to understand these new formations. I really only see the obvious ones being played, wing and net, with the OSC being an odd exception given that you have to pay a 180pt tax for a unit almost everyone spat on (except myself and Jancoran, if I remember "Unorthodoxy" correctly from those days).
So now, disclaimer time. Even though I am espousing in favor of trying these tactics in tourney settings, I will not be doing so this year. The list I posted above was the best "outflank" list I could build using the unpainted half of my army. I would have felt confident taking it to these events (Mechanicon will be the largest I think), but i know it would not match up against 5 titans, 9 riptides, etc. The list I have settled on is, to my eternal shame, my version of a "leafblower" list, and while it still includes Strider for fluffiness, the rest is pure shootiness. I will be "playing my pocketbook" and buying the models just for it. The list and model theme I am using is a cadre that is tasked with cleansing a planet of a very large and dangerous indigenous species. "Big Game Hunters" it will be called. This list still uses the pathfinders as it's base, but in the ranged support cadre instead. Once again, no hunter contingent. Darkstrider is not too big of an HQ tax, especially in a monster meta, and my two troop choices are almost as minimal as can get. I want high strength at range for my theme, and the contingent is too restrictive, points wise, for my intentions.
Farsight Enclaves CAD - 571
HQ- Darkstrider
Troop- Crisis w/ flamer (modeled using the recon drone w/ a weapon swap, perfect for a sacrificial drop point score @ 28pts. I wish I had six of them!)
Troop- Crisis w/ flamer
LOW- Stormsurge w/ D-shotgun, ewos, shield gen
In this list the finders obviously perform a completely different job, as they are the sole source of markerlights, and are forbidden to fire special weapons to keep their awesome formation perks. I've always played marker-finders defensively, as in positioning them safely far back to mark things that reach my deployment zone, rather than trying to paint my enemys' specific units on turn one. That's what tetras and drones are for. I wonder how these new formation perks will influence how I play them...
Why railsides? Well, monster hunter themed list... so...range. I actually think they may perform better than missiles against those 5-10 MC/GC lists, but that remains for me to see.
luke1705 wrote: Looks to me like you could get a hunter cadre with minor tweaking. I might try that over the CAD for more efficient markerlights, especially since your markerlights don't have any added durability. Once they're gone, they're gone
Onjective Secured is better in my opinion. I hate not having it. Especially in a list like this where deployment shenanigans are the soup du jour.
spacelord321 wrote: Hello, all. I'm new to the forum but have lurked for years. I played a lot of 6th but only a bit of 7th, before rage quitting due to old serpent spam. I played mainly mech list, as that's what I have painted, and the old serpent shield made half of my list almost useless.
I am re-entering the hobby and have decided to paint up a new army for the summer-fall tourney scene in NE USA. As I own 2 unopened riptides and two unopened pathfinder boxes, I've decided to base the army around the finders, as the riptide wing is almost an auto include in tough tourneys. As is the surge, imho.
So I've been putting quite a bit of thought into how to get the most out of 20 finders, and Darkstrider, since he doesn't get much love.
First, a bit of background on my attempts at outflanking lists. I started toying with pos relay gimmick outflank lists in 6th, and while I found them fun, and my opponents did as well, the 50% on board at start rule crippled the playstyle. Then seventh came along and I found a new interest in it, as that rule was removed. Unfortunately, I found that the reserve rolls still could make or break the game for me, so I felt it just wasn't a tourney level style of play. Granted , my local meta had yet to embrace mealstrom, so the strength of shifty scoring units went unreallized.
Now enter the new infiltration cadre formation. This formation has given this playstyle a huge boost. It remains to be seen how clever opponents decide to deal with that first turn, as I haven't seen anyone trying it yet in batreps.
So, if using this formation, I feel one should have a very heavy amount of reserves (obviously), to justify the cost. That said, luckily five of the six units in the formation have the ability to outflank. Also, those same units all have the option to take pos relays, so there should be at least one or two in there. I like the stealths, as it's a cheaper buy, and their infiltrate and mobility can be used to jet towards the opponents back edge on turn 1, making them even juicier bait. I believe the key to using this formation will be understanding which of these units to use or combine together to bait the specific army you are against. I can think of too many scenarios to get into now myself.
The next key to the outflank list is having the long range fire power to force you're opponent to come to you. You have to draw out the enemy force so that when the outflankers arrive they can consolidate their fire on one section of the enemy's army that has either the best chance at turning our lines, or those sections that have the least potential to inflict return damage. Basically, you have to think of the list as a null deploy counter strike. The biggest strength of this style, and what seperates it from deep strike heavy lists is the precision deployment of the pos relays over deep striking. Believe me when I say it makes a huge difference. It is not difficult for us to have all four board edges viable for deployment, and indeed this style of list should have enough redundencies of pos relays to ensure it always has that option.
Anyway, perhaps posting the sample list I was considering building for tourneys will help with understanding my ramblings on this subject.
With this list you have three parts, the bait (most likely Piranha or Stealth team. I would keep at least one Stealth team in reserve for that relay), the firebase, and the ambush party.
The bait depends on the enemy. The firebase can either start on the table with the markers if needed, but most likely you gave up first turn or your opponent opted to take it, so you null deploy and force the bait kill. In this case your opponent will not have a focal point to charge his troops at, and my experience is that he will either play safe and stay huddled up, allowing you to deploy your firebase with the best ratio for damage out vs damage in, or he will committ to storming at your deployment zone in a more spread out fashion trying to secure as many objectives as he can early on. In this case you concentrate everything on one section of his army and deal a crippling blow that leaves them playing catch up the rest of the game.
Now the outflankers' role is one of two things. First, they can make a play for a backfield firebase of the enemy. This ideally cause your opponent to redirect movement towards his own backfield, weakening the push he was making for your firebase and pulling his force in two on YOUR terms, and losing usefulness that turn of the units thus redirected.
Second, and I found this was more often the case, I would use them to outflank on my strong table side, helping the firebase crush the front most threatening units. This ideally leaves my opponents with a crippled charge into a now much larger and closely concentrated force. "Turning the Flank" as described by Jancoran earlier. Never used pathfinders in this role before, but I've used 40 Kroot to do it plenty.
I feel this tactic has a strong potential for competative play. It won't out shoot the strongest of lists, but it has the tools and tricks for an extremely accurate counter strike. Pathfinders in this list perform the role of crisis suits, with a more precise method of attacking those exploitable points in your opponents army, at the trade off of being less mobile and resilient after their strike.
I feel that the options for army building are more abundant than ever before, and all armies are still experimenting with the new format of 7th. I remember the days of 3rd edition (when I started) and the multitude of deployment techniques used by various armies. Drop guard, turn 1 attack genestealers, infiltrating havoc squad lists, "ninja" tau where the game was won or lost on your 4th turn drop.... I feel we have been stuck in napoleonic warfare mode since 5th, but if GW keeps writing formations like this, I can see these lists beginning to turn that boring style of play around. One can only hope...
First of all, my applause., this is a good looking list. While I go about the Markerlights a different way, this looks pretty decent.
I'll tell you what I like about it: it goes everywhere it wants to. There is no quadrant you wont contest, no Line Breaking Objectives you can't get from Maelstroms and the "Surprise! You're dead!" aspect of it appeals to me greatly.
The Kroot would be better if you put a Recon drone in those Pathfinder Squads. Its just an incredible asset to be able to bring Kroot onto the enemy's long board edge. I think Id rather have that than the Stealthsuits because it gives you the two wound, T4, 4+ armored thing between your Pathfinders and the bolter shots but it also actually shoots a Burst Cannon to boot. Pretty good return but mainly it maximizes the deployment shenanigans. Stealth suits are then free to do their thing and range free.
.DarkStrider is definitely awesome to fill a CADHQ choice for the force. Relatively Cheap, synergizes well (albeit I have to say, less so when the Pathfinder units are as small as yours but still good) and if you even care, fluffy.
luke1705 wrote: Looks to me like you could get a hunter cadre with minor tweaking. I might try that over the CAD for more efficient markerlights, especially since your markerlights don't have any added durability. Once they're gone, they're gone
Onjective Secured is better in my opinion. I hate not having it. Especially in a list like this where deployment shenanigans are the soup du jour.
Agreed. I forgot to mention that the Marker formation outflanks as well, so in total 13 outflanking units, with 2 MCs and a GMC that push forward to meet them. As said, my experience was almost always a side flank, with any rear edge deployments focused on that strong side, enveloping those forward assault units. Mind you this was mostly in 6th w/ the 50% rule, and I lost most games but never by more than 4. Always found that to be a good thing actually, In those days I used stealth squads w/ fusions and markers in place of finders. The hardest part was keeping enough of that initial 50% squads alive to influence the fight, although that list has mass infiltrate, which was a different story. This new "null deployment" option is very cool, IMHO.
spacelord321 wrote: Hello, all. I'm new to the forum but have lurked for years. I played a lot of 6th but only a bit of 7th, before rage quitting due to old serpent spam. I played mainly mech list, as that's what I have painted, and the old serpent shield made half of my list almost useless.
I am re-entering the hobby and have decided to paint up a new army for the summer-fall tourney scene in NE USA. As I own 2 unopened riptides and two unopened pathfinder boxes, I've decided to base the army around the finders, as the riptide wing is almost an auto include in tough tourneys. As is the surge, imho.
So I've been putting quite a bit of thought into how to get the most out of 20 finders, and Darkstrider, since he doesn't get much love.
First, a bit of background on my attempts at outflanking lists. I started toying with pos relay gimmick outflank lists in 6th, and while I found them fun, and my opponents did as well, the 50% on board at start rule crippled the playstyle. Then seventh came along and I found a new interest in it, as that rule was removed. Unfortunately, I found that the reserve rolls still could make or break the game for me, so I felt it just wasn't a tourney level style of play. Granted , my local meta had yet to embrace mealstrom, so the strength of shifty scoring units went unreallized.
Now enter the new infiltration cadre formation. This formation has given this playstyle a huge boost. It remains to be seen how clever opponents decide to deal with that first turn, as I haven't seen anyone trying it yet in batreps.
So, if using this formation, I feel one should have a very heavy amount of reserves (obviously), to justify the cost. That said, luckily five of the six units in the formation have the ability to outflank. Also, those same units all have the option to take pos relays, so there should be at least one or two in there. I like the stealths, as it's a cheaper buy, and their infiltrate and mobility can be used to jet towards the opponents back edge on turn 1, making them even juicier bait. I believe the key to using this formation will be understanding which of these units to use or combine together to bait the specific army you are against. I can think of too many scenarios to get into now myself.
The next key to the outflank list is having the long range fire power to force you're opponent to come to you. You have to draw out the enemy force so that when the outflankers arrive they can consolidate their fire on one section of the enemy's army that has either the best chance at turning our lines, or those sections that have the least potential to inflict return damage. Basically, you have to think of the list as a null deploy counter strike. The biggest strength of this style, and what seperates it from deep strike heavy lists is the precision deployment of the pos relays over deep striking. Believe me when I say it makes a huge difference. It is not difficult for us to have all four board edges viable for deployment, and indeed this style of list should have enough redundencies of pos relays to ensure it always has that option.
Anyway, perhaps posting the sample list I was considering building for tourneys will help with understanding my ramblings on this subject.
With this list you have three parts, the bait (most likely Piranha or Stealth team. I would keep at least one Stealth team in reserve for that relay), the firebase, and the ambush party.
The bait depends on the enemy. The firebase can either start on the table with the markers if needed, but most likely you gave up first turn or your opponent opted to take it, so you null deploy and force the bait kill. In this case your opponent will not have a focal point to charge his troops at, and my experience is that he will either play safe and stay huddled up, allowing you to deploy your firebase with the best ratio for damage out vs damage in, or he will committ to storming at your deployment zone in a more spread out fashion trying to secure as many objectives as he can early on. In this case you concentrate everything on one section of his army and deal a crippling blow that leaves them playing catch up the rest of the game.
Now the outflankers' role is one of two things. First, they can make a play for a backfield firebase of the enemy. This ideally cause your opponent to redirect movement towards his own backfield, weakening the push he was making for your firebase and pulling his force in two on YOUR terms, and losing usefulness that turn of the units thus redirected.
Second, and I found this was more often the case, I would use them to outflank on my strong table side, helping the firebase crush the front most threatening units. This ideally leaves my opponents with a crippled charge into a now much larger and closely concentrated force. "Turning the Flank" as described by Jancoran earlier. Never used pathfinders in this role before, but I've used 40 Kroot to do it plenty.
I feel this tactic has a strong potential for competative play. It won't out shoot the strongest of lists, but it has the tools and tricks for an extremely accurate counter strike. Pathfinders in this list perform the role of crisis suits, with a more precise method of attacking those exploitable points in your opponents army, at the trade off of being less mobile and resilient after their strike.
I feel that the options for army building are more abundant than ever before, and all armies are still experimenting with the new format of 7th. I remember the days of 3rd edition (when I started) and the multitude of deployment techniques used by various armies. Drop guard, turn 1 attack genestealers, infiltrating havoc squad lists, "ninja" tau where the game was won or lost on your 4th turn drop.... I feel we have been stuck in napoleonic warfare mode since 5th, but if GW keeps writing formations like this, I can see these lists beginning to turn that boring style of play around. One can only hope...
First of all, my applause., this is a good looking list. While I go about the Markerlights a different way, this looks pretty decent.
I'll tell you what I like about it: it goes everywhere it wants to. There is no quadrant you wont contest, no Line Breaking Objectives you can't get from Maelstroms and the "Surprise! You're dead!" aspect of it appeals to me greatly.
The Kroot would be better if you put a Recon drone in those Pathfinder Squads. Its just an incredible asset to be able to bring Kroot onto the enemy's long board edge. I think Id rather have that than the Stealthsuits because it gives you the two wound, T4, 4+ armored thing between your Pathfinders and the bolter shots but it also actually shoots a Burst Cannon to boot. Pretty good return but mainly it maximizes the deployment shenanigans. Stealth suits are then free to do their thing and range free.
.DarkStrider is definitely awesome to fill a CADHQ choice for the force. Relatively Cheap, synergizes well (albeit I have to say, less so when the Pathfinder units are as small as yours but still good) and if you even care, fluffy.
Null-Tastic list as well which is super cool.
Thank You. My second list aside, this is my playstyle, and what I would bring to the table against friends. Haven't played since early seventh, and I had just added in a riptide in my last three games. Yep, played through all of 6th with no tide! I have two now, but I haven't gotten the surge yet, however.
I could definitely see adding in a recon drone if that is your flavor. It all depends on how many you think you would need, and which units you would be using for the bait. The bait dynamics alone sets my mind awhirl! Do I start a ion finder squad in the open within rapid fire range of an easy target, shove my piranha up the tailpipe of the closest vehicle, infiltrate my stealths in a suicide spot but with aim on the command squad? It goes on...
As for the finders, I kind of plan on them being sacrificial, although I will certainly try to keep them alive. As for Darkstrider, if he survives return fire I would leap frog him around the 5 finder squads for the rest of the game. I think a much better choice would be to lose that 3rd rifle and strider and put in an ethereal and a 3rd 10 man kroot squad. Sure you're going to give up that fishpriest point, but after how many turns of him casting stubborn on 50 outflanking infantry?
Thank You. My second list aside, this is my playstyle, and what I would bring to the table against friends. Haven't played since early seventh, and I had just added in a riptide in my last three games. Yep, played through all of 6th with no tide! I have two now, but I haven't gotten the surge yet, however.
I could definitely see adding in a recon drone if that is your flavor. It all depends on how many you think you would need, and which units you would be using for the bait. The bait dynamics alone sets my mind awhirl! Do I start a ion finder squad in the open within rapid fire range of an easy target, shove my piranha up the tailpipe of the closest vehicle, infiltrate my stealths in a suicide spot but with aim on the command squad? It goes on...
As for the finders, I kind of plan on them being sacrificial, although I will certainly try to keep them alive. As for Darkstrider, if he survives return fire I would leap frog him around the 5 finder squads for the rest of the game. I think a much better choice would be to lose that 3rd rifle and strider and put in an ethereal and a 3rd 10 man kroot squad. Sure you're going to give up that fishpriest point, but after how many turns of him casting stubborn on 50 outflanking infantry?
You will need those Rail Rifles. Especially since you don't put EMP on them. The lone Piranha being eployed...and nothing else.... is a delicious option as i mentioned. I might think about a fusion blaster on the Stealth Suits btw.
I love Aun'Va but his ability would be kind of wasted on 5 man squads. Theres a reason i take bigger ones. =). So I think you're fine. MAIN worry is always that a unit wont do its job when called upon. So dont be shy with those Rail Rifles.
arthorn wrote: Interesting list to say the least. Let me us know you perform(pics etc. Greatly appreciated!)
I thought you said you wanted to add a riptidewing, and seems you are one riptide short. Did you forget are didnt do it deliberately?
Also look at ghostkeelwing. Are you units have bad saves, maybe with stealth bubkle you create a more durable list?
I may just do some batreps once I get back to the table officially. Right now I'm buckled down building and buying that second list to get it ready for tourney play, which I prefer.
I had a version w/ a 4 tide wing at the expense of the SS, but I'm pretty set on buying the surge and now don't plan on buying more than 3 non FW tides.
The ghostkeel wing would be an interesting twist to the list, but in that case I would lose the surge to squeeze it in. That's actually an even more thematic "ambush" list, and would be awesome for a next project, as I am pretty much a Tau supremacist, and my current project won't use all those dang unpainted kroot I've had laying around for years.
That list really has my gears turning. I love the concept. I'm concerned that your mobility will be a bit limited once you come on from the edge and that your reserves manipulation - specifically your outflank manipulation - is a bit lacking to throw together a concentrated force on the desired side. I also worry that your performance against marines (MSU, deathstars, etc.) will be mediocre, given the dearth of low-AP fire. That said, I'm impressed with the amount of mobile firepower you packed into the list. The mobility and outflanking potential are great. I honestly wouldn't change a whole lot with the list. Maybe switch around some upgrades or something, but it sounds like a ton of fun to play with.
I'm considering doing something similar with Crisis Suits as the fire base and a bit of extra obsec. I think you could improve your damage output and mobility a bit but perhaps at the cost of a little durability. It'd be an interesting change.
Asura Varuna wrote: Which books do I need to get access to all the Tau formations? Does anyone have a link to formations-by-book, or perhaps wouldn't mind listing them?
Tau Codex -- Hunter Contingent and Auxiliaries (most notably, Optimized stealth cadre)
Kauyon -- Tau Codex + Tidewall rules
So I basically have played Warhammer off and on forever. (Since 3rd edition, not literally forever) and I have recently decided to get back into it after one of my friends re-introduced me. I'm not really familiar with some of the changes that they've made, and I don't know any armies rules anymore except Tau because I bought their books. I made an army list for 1850 and I'd like to know how it would work, if at all. Forgive me if I made mistakes making this list, because I used Battlescribe. (Also this is my first post here. Hello all.)
(Instead of copy + pasting this three times, there are 3 units of battlesuits all equipped the same)
-XV8 Crisis Battlesuits
--XV8
---Cyclic Ion Blaster
---Cyclic Ion Blaster
---Target Lock
---2x Markerlight Drones
---Bonding Knife
--XV8
---Fusion Blaster
---Fusion Blaster
---Target Lock
---2x Markerlight Drones
---Bonding Knife
--XV8
---Cyclic Ion Blaster
---Fusion Blaster
---Target Lock
---2x Markerlight Drones
---Bonding Knife
This all comes out to exactly 1850 points.
So basically the plan of this list is the entire formation will low altitude deploy right next to whatever the highest value target on the table is, and hopefully using their drop site clear that they get murderize some stuff and cripple the other player. After that it's kind of winging it, jetpacking around and whatever. I guess I kinda took the Mont'ka strategy to heart after I read the books. I realize that an army that deep strikes a lot of stuff is sort of strong against this because the initial strike will not have the impact I want, but that's why I will try to cede the first turn to the opponent so they have as much time on table as possible before my army deploys.
I've never really tested this strat on anyone, but I have played a very small version of it vs friends and I did pretty well, but I don't know if that's because they're bad or my strategy is sound. Help is appreciated.
EDIT: I thought I should say that I put Target Locks on all the battlesuits because they are a unit with the drones, and so the 'unit' (drones) will shoot a target, and then the battlesuits can target something else (Or multiple other things, if needed) while at the same time the unit is helping the army take down priority targets with markerlights. Also the initial core is just so I have units on the field on turn 1 because I have been told that if I have nothing on the field on turn 1 then I automatically lose. (I have not researched this, and I don't have my book with me to look it up. Also they are for extra markerlights so they can remain useful)
The shooting phase will look something like core units (Markerlights), Commander (Markerlight, Targets TEQ units), XV8 teams (More markerlights, other small/insignificant units and/or light vehicles, potentially also burns markers), Riptide (TEQ units, priority MEQ units, burns markers), Hammerheads (Vehicles, submunitions on light infantry if no vehicles exist, burns markers), Broadsides (Air units, vehicles, TEQ units, burns markers)
Per forum rules we can't list specific wargear points values.. so I would remove those Generally points aren't really needed anyway except for the total you have and what you are aiming for (say you have 1700/1850 and are looking for some help.. for example)..
I haven't read the list yet but I will give it a read.
I have a fun one, what do people recommend to take down a heirophant bio titan, with no storm surges, or supremacy armor. I had the fun of dealing with one of those at a tournament.
oz of the north wrote: I have a fun one, what do people recommend to take down a heirophant bio titan, with no storm surges, or supremacy armor. I had the fun of dealing with one of those at a tournament.
depends on your list.. don't recall the exact stats of the guy... but I would consider HYMP broadsides with a buffcommander attached (atleast with puretide for Monster hunter). Other options include riptide wing with 1 or more HBC, nova them .. say you had 2 .. thats 48 s6 rending shots one turn... that could really lay some hurt. A plasma/fusion team could do well also.
oz of the north wrote: I have a fun one, what do people recommend to take down a heirophant bio titan, with no storm surges, or supremacy armor. I had the fun of dealing with one of those at a tournament.
They're actually not that bad. Yes, it does have 2+ armor, is T9 and has a ton of wounds. It also is 1,000 points, and could be 1250 or more if they have it transporting anything.
What you get for those points, however, is incredibly lackluster. A single imperial knight or wraithknight could easily kill it in hand to hand, and massed grav will end its day (even without the hunter's eye). It only has a 6+ invuln.
For us, the stormsurge and it's D is the answer. Maybe a ton of fusion pihrannas with seeker missiles. But it would take a lot. The HBC riptide wing would do some work for sure, especially because the hierophant can't kill a tide until combat (only guns are AP 3). The upside is that all wounds are rending. The downside is that to be really effective, you would need monster hunter....don't believe you can get that on a riptide wing.
If you don't want to do that, do what has been happening ever since the dawn of war - if you can't kill it, ignore it. Tau have more mobility than you think with their jet pack moves, and I have literally never seen a hierophant make its points back (that includes my hierophant, so that is especially sad haha)
oz of the north wrote: I have a fun one, what do people recommend to take down a heirophant bio titan, with no storm surges, or supremacy armor. I had the fun of dealing with one of those at a tournament.
depends on your list.. don't recall the exact stats of the guy... but I would consider HYMP broadsides with a buffcommander attached (atleast with puretide for Monster hunter). Other options include riptide wing with 1 or more HBC, nova them .. say you had 2 .. thats 48 s6 rending shots one turn... that could really lay some hurt. A plasma/fusion team could do well also.
You can pretty reliably assume that you're going to nova with those bad boys....should be putting out 72 shots the turn they double fire
EDIT I can read haha. But I think that unless you have zero stormsurges, the HBC are far superior to the ion accelerator in a riptide wing. If you can consistently nova, they are brutal
I dont even think that a riptide wing would be able to kill one. Wounding on 6s and its fnp, also the ability to move 24 inches a turn it would be able to just run down a riptide wing and crush in combat.
You can pretty reliably assume that you're going to nova with those bad boys....should be putting out 72 shots the turn they double fire
EDIT I can read haha. But I think that unless you have zero stormsurges, the HBC are far superior to the ion accelerator in a riptide wing. If you can consistently nova, they are brutal
So if you ran a rip wing with three HBC, would you run them with SMS ??? I was actually putting a list together and was thinking: - HBC, SMS, VT - HBC, SMS, VT - HBC, SMS, VT
If i run up against a horde.. i can opt to ripple fire for 48 SMS missles + however many HBC shots (48?)
Plus I deny flying circus demons and Nids or this 5 stormtalon formation I have seen more often now.
If they have a ton of TEQ or AV, then i nova up all my HBCs and as you said.. unleash 72 rending shots downfield.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oz of the north wrote: I dont even think that a riptide wing would be able to kill one. Wounding on 6s and its fnp, also the ability to move 24 inches a turn it would be able to just run down a riptide wing and crush in combat.
Assuming BS5.. your doing 3.33 wounds turn you double fire. But that is exactly average. you potentially could do worse.. but more likely your going to do better. Before FNP.. your dealing 10 rending wounds.. so if he rolls bad he is gone right there..
oz of the north wrote: I dont even think that a riptide wing would be able to kill one. Wounding on 6s and its fnp, also the ability to move 24 inches a turn it would be able to just run down a riptide wing and crush in combat.
It kind of depends,
Most WKs in the competitive scene aren't running with a shield, so if they aren't in cover any 6 will only have to pass the FNP.
with hailfire you should on average roll around 7-8 rending, and wound another 16 times with the burst cannons, and another 4-5 wounds with the SMS.
so around 7-8 5+ FNP rolls and then 20 3+ 5++
comes down to rolling but the WK could certainly die if left out of cover.
oz of the north wrote: I dont even think that a riptide wing would be able to kill one. Wounding on 6s and its fnp, also the ability to move 24 inches a turn it would be able to just run down a riptide wing and crush in combat.
It kind of depends,
Most WKs in the competitive scene aren't running with a shield, so if they aren't in cover any 6 will only have to pass the FNP.
with hailfire you should on average roll around 7-8 rending, and wound another 16 times with the burst cannons, and another 4-5 wounds with the SMS.
so around 7-8 5+ FNP rolls and then 20 3+ 5++
comes down to rolling but the WK could certainly die if left out of cover.
I was talking about the biotitan, not the WK. Not being able to take one of those down without bringing some sort of str D weaponry.
Riptides with IA seems like the go-to choice here due to S7AP2 shots, but perhaps plasma crisis are a better fit. they die more easily, but get far more shots of at the same pricerange, that wound on the same 6 and same AP2.
Snipers also wound on 6s, and being sniper a wound of 6 is AP2, making sniper drones and sniper kroot an interesting prospect.
Riptides with IA seems like the go-to choice here due to S7AP2 shots, but perhaps plasma crisis are a better fit. they die more easily, but get far more shots of at the same pricerange, that wound on the same 6 and same AP2.
Snipers also wound on 6s, and being sniper a wound of 6 is AP2, making sniper drones and sniper kroot an interesting prospect.
s6 and s7 both wound T9 on 6s. so the HBC is better in this sense then the Ion.. because 6s will rend anyway and you have more shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So planning out some lists for NOVA and at 1850 I thought of this and on paper seems pretty good, but in practice not sure.
HBC only rend if you got NOVA active. not otherwise.
But 10 wounds at T9 FnP4...
So, practically, you need to land 20 wounds on average.
That means 20 To-Wound of 6 with AP2 attacks. therefor 120 hits unless you reroll wounds, and then you need 67 hits.
Yea, that's alot.
HBC riptide wing will do decent work, but I fail to see anything else that gets anywhere near it in reasonable time.
You might consider an Allied Advance Cadre as part of a DBC. BS4, wound-rerolling sniper Kroot are pretty nasty to big things. HBC tides aren't an awful option, I guess, but they're pretty inefficient for killing T9 things. I'd rather use Kroot and/or Sniper Drones combined with some D missiles.
I like your list. It's pretty similar to mine but I do FNP on the Riptides instead of VT. Get enough markerlights and you'll be fine in the AA department.
I'm also tweaking around with a version of a list that includes 2 stormsurges and a few less drones. It actually has about the same markerlight output, but only at 1 unit of course. And while the markerlights don't have interceptor, I'm ok with that.
It's basically the list that Frankie on Frontlinegaming has been using.
I've been modelling a tyranid fighter Tau army with an eye towards monster hunting. I have a few different versions of the idea, all of which are built around the ranged support cadre and Railside spam. The marker cost for the 88s is so cheap that i'm trying to think of these railsides as being mobile, After moving it takes 6 markers to bring these 3 squads back to BS5 twinlinked. Also, I'm trying to take any even more birds' eye view of the table and trying to look at it from the perspective that the monsters are the main soldiers and the role of infantry has become one of helping these large war machines win the day. That said, it stands to reason that all of the races would strive to create Task Forces of specialized soldiers for the sole purpose of eliminating these lords of war. I try to envision that these lists are an example of one of many tau titan-hunting teams. I like to think of the broadsides as equivilant to a team of firewarriors in our "upview" of battlefields where 3-5 story creatures run rampant. For its' size class, like the pulse rifle, the HRR out-ranges everyone else and has the potential to hurt anything I point it at.
So in this list the firebase cadre has monster or tank hunter, so more railsides could be moved from ranged cadre to there if desired. I have the ranged cad filled for the ease of markerlighting. This list also has 4 monsters itself to give it some staying power. The burstide wing should bring down flyers for me easy. As much as I like this list and believe that I could play it very competitively, I don't feel like it fully captures the "theme" that I'm going for. I'm trying to represent a small battlegroup of railsides tasked with bringing down the largest of tyranid monsters (I really intend it for all LOWs), so I really want to go with an alpha stike ability. I want to cause crippling damage as quickly as possible to the largest thing(s) on the field, so this time I'll use the Dawnblade Detachment, for that doom-esque ability.
Now to me, THIS feels like an alpha strike list. This time I've added a fourth 88 squad from the ret cad, and this one is relentless. That means that after moving it will only need the 2 markerlights to bring it to bs5 TL, just like the other three squads. I am not afraid to keep up a moving fusillade with these guys. Their alpha strike, considering first turn and markers are in range, should all be fired at bs5 twin linked (5ml stationary, 8ml moving) with ignore cover (5ml for all). 13 total lights needed for the 88s all to fire at peak efficiency if moving, 10 otherwise. 11-12 hits. Now we add in the seekers as our second weapon that turn, for another 12 STR8 hits at 2+. Now we add in our dawnblade ability and everything gets to reroll to wound (or pen). This should definitely cause some major damage, even to the toughest of targets. The rest is just the bare min to fill requirements and I think I've managed to somewhat fill gaps with those units. The burstide is obvious AA, while the crisis suits play anti-horde, backed up by abundant (12) sms if need be.
I do feel that the first list has more survivability and perhaps adaptability. However, I feel the second is truer to the original intent, and stand a better chance of bringing down those tough targets quickly.
I like your list. It's pretty similar to mine but I do FNP on the Riptides instead of VT. Get enough markerlights and you'll be fine in the AA department.
I'm also tweaking around with a version of a list that includes 2 stormsurges and a few less drones. It actually has about the same markerlight output, but only at 1 unit of course. And while the markerlights don't have interceptor, I'm ok with that.
It's basically the list that Frankie on Frontlinegaming has been using.
Nice! Yeah the FNP will definitely add to their survivability that is a for sure thing. I was actually thinking about dropping the VT and figuring out a way to get a drone per riptide.
normally I am completely against the idea of a potential morale check, but in the current heavy grav meta. ITC rules that tie goes to the defender.. so as long as you have a riptide w/ a single drone grav is wounding you on 4+. That is a HUGE change in survivability there.
I am also debating whether or not to run Ion or HBC. Right now I am forfeiting interceptor but I think the HBC has more consistent offense. IDK
Automatically Appended Next Post: was thinking about this today... someone tell me I am wrong..
Hunter Cadre "units may run and then shoot in the shooting phase if within 12" of a commander or Fireblade"
If a unit does not move in the movement phase.. and then runs and shoots as per the hunter cadre benefit... do they count as moving for heavy weapons ????
It's a good thought - however if the unit has a grav amp, the exchange is almost even (like within 2% chance of taking a wound). You gain durability on the initial volley but once the shield drone dies, you're just sitting on your 5+ invuln.
With a normal riptide, you have an essential re-rollable 5+ invuln, so although you take more wounds initially, you also save more. You're basically running into the law of diminishing returns - a re-rollable 2+ isn't THAT much better than a normal 2+, as compared to a re-rollable 4+. The former has an increase of effectiveness at roughly 14 percent, whereas the latter is 25% more effective. So you're basically just giving their grav amps a chance to earn their money.
I would rather take the inherent durability (and after the first round, it's not even close how much better that is since the drone will likely be dead and you still have your FNP)
HBC definitely has much more consistent offense
As per sprinting pathfinders with markerlights...yeah they can sit still in the movement phase, sprint and then shoot at full ballistic skill. Because reasons. I guess we're Eldar now
Yep. I was also looking at 9 railsides in a hunter cad to get that movable broadside shenanigans. It also applies to our tanks effectively giving us tanks that move 12" and shoot again.
spacelord321 wrote: Yep. I was also looking at 9 railsides in a hunter cad to get that movable broadside shenanigans. It also applies to our tanks effectively giving us tanks that move 12" and shoot again.
Yeah I was coming up with some fun lists... I ran at 1000 points a Cad with Fire warrior spam and the ghostkeel wing.. it was actually super effective.
So I was looking at ways to expand this into 1850 points.
Looking at running Mark'o with puretide chip and sticking him with some broadsides... basically run and shoot if need be for some extra movement.
Y'know, I've been thinking about how everyone says the Riptide's shielded missile drones are bad because if they die the Riptide takes a morale check. I have a simple solution that most have probably thought of already, and that is to PUT THE DRONES BEHIND THE RIPTIDE! Seriously, now the enemy has to kill the Riptide. Only weakness of that is if something gets behind you, they can hit the drones, plus Precision Shots are a thing. If something tries to drop behind you, that is why you have EWO. And, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread they make Grav less effective since it wounds on 4+ instead of 2+. I was thinking of taking the drones with my Riptide in a list that also has a drone net (so the missile pods are BS3!).
Having them behind you is fine, but you're inviting some nasty combos on LD nerfing and you're also mitigating some of the Drones reason for even being there. You pay full price for the Drone whether you get its shielding or not. So i mean... that's not an inconsiderable issue.
As you point out, if the enemy does get behind you (an extraordinary measure but not unforseeable) Then yeah... My Haemonculous coven would love to outflank, drop your ld, kill a drone and see you flee. Good times.
And we never know what we will face in a tournament so i don't know. the first time i lost a Riptide to LD was the last time I took a Drone and I suppose in many matchups the solution works absolutely fine.
Jancoran wrote: Having them behind you is fine, but you're inviting some nasty combos on LD nerfing and you're also mitigating some of the Drones reason for even being there. You pay full price for the Drone whether you get its shielding or not. So i mean... that's not an inconsiderable issue.
As you point out, if the enemy does get behind you (an extraordinary measure but not unforseeable) Then yeah... My Haemonculous coven would love to outflank, drop your ld, kill a drone and see you flee. Good times.
And we never know what we will face in a tournament so i don't know. the first time i lost a Riptide to LD was the last time I took a Drone and I suppose in many matchups the solution works absolutely fine.
I'm not sure missing out on the shielding is such a huge issue. A Riptide has a 5++ anyway (that can be increased to 3++), so having a shielded drone is not a huge thing. Mostly I would take them for the missile pods, and then only if they have the BS3 from the Drone Net. The extra protection from Grav is the only thing that makes them worth their points in that case, as I just thought about how you can get cheaper Missile pods elsewhere (for example on Crisis suits). Still, I have the models, so I might like to try them in a casual game and see what happens.
Also, the leadership issue. Riptides have LD 9, so that comes to a 1/6 chance to run away. Seems pretty safe to me. When it (the 1 in 6) happens it probably kinda sucks to have over 200 points just run off the board. I guess the question is whether the risk is worth the benefits of the extra firepower.
The main problem is just what Jancoran pointed out - sure you could put them behind you, but then you miss out on the increased invulnerable save and the extra wound.
Sure you could put it in front of you, but then you're subject to a leadership check when it inevitably dies. It's not awful, and you should definitely pay the points for BKR in that case, but I don't think that's worth the points for what you get. Just grab stims for like 10 more points and call it a day
my main issue with shielded missile drones is the cost. 25pts for a BS2 missilepod that while yes its T6, it still goes away to bolters like all our drones do. Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot the big guns at a riptide or any suit with a drone in front, and unlike the other drones the Shielded Missile Drone is expensive as gak for a throwaway model.
Vineheart01 wrote: my main issue with shielded missile drones is the cost. 25pts for a BS2 missilepod that while yes its T6, it still goes away to bolters like all our drones do. Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot the big guns at a riptide or any suit with a drone in front, and unlike the other drones the Shielded Missile Drone is expensive as gak for a throwaway model.
T6 drone right?
The drones are about filling out units. Field 1, 2 or 3 riptides. But then, maybe add drones. But the tricky thing is there are soo many other more useful (/mandatory) upgrades to get first.
luke1705 wrote:The main problem is just what Jancoran pointed out - sure you could put them behind you, but then you miss out on the increased invulnerable save and the extra wound.
Sure you could put it in front of you, but then you're subject to a leadership check when it inevitably dies. It's not awful, and you should definitely pay the points for BKR in that case, but I don't think that's worth the points for what you get. Just grab stims for like 10 more points and call it a day
I don't think you need BKR if you only have one Riptide and its two drones, as it is impossible to be below 25% of the unit. However, if you were running multiple Riptides it would be useful.
Vineheart01 wrote:my main issue with shielded missile drones is the cost. 25pts for a BS2 missilepod that while yes its T6, it still goes away to bolters like all our drones do. Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot the big guns at a riptide or any suit with a drone in front, and unlike the other drones the Shielded Missile Drone is expensive as gak for a throwaway model.
It would take quite a few bolters to reliably kill the drones in this case since they need 6's. These are bolters that could otherwise be shooting up your squishy regular infantry or softening up your Crisis suits and regular drone squadrons. Regular shield drones are definitely a waste since they are only T4 and are much easier to kill with bolters.
Oldmike wrote:The only use I see for SMD is anti gravity gun but 25 points can get 2 regular drones or get you most of the way to a FNP save
You can't take regular drones with a Riptide. Of course if you mean in another unit, I see your point.
I don't mean to seem contrary, I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate and trying to find all the reasons for and against SMDs. Kind of like Jancoran was talking about a few pages ago with heavy weapon pathfinders; using something that internet "wisdom" says doesn't work well and seeing if in fact it can be useful.
I have used the Shielded Missile drones successfully often, but I believe it only really shines on the HBC (who I loved when the Pilot Array was available). Often I found myself only wanting to pick up 2 markerlights for this guy for +2 BS anyway, due to the high AP of the Cannon and SMS. I would miss out on the occasional rend, but still drown 3+ armor units with wounds anyway. The Str/AP of the Shielded Missile Drones meshes well with the HBC, and helps add vehicle stopping power to the rending Nova Cannon. With a +2 BS they did good work. I concur that leaving them BEHIND the Riptide was very important. The added fire power was more than enough to justify the expense (2 drones for less then a dual Missile Pod Crisis Suit).
One of the things this was great at Tournaments was going against players who know enough about Tau to see the Leadership weakness of the Drones. More than once opponents were tempted to try a risky deepstrike or advance one or two mobile units out of advantageous board locations to try to capitalize and make the Riptide run. Often the gambit failed with decent Riptide placement, or was successful in killing the drone only to see the Riptide pass his Ld test (this is even less of a concern if you use an Ethereal, particularly Aun'Va). Both results left them out of position and often was a critical error. I was honestly surprised when this happened during events with quality opponents who should not have (and normally would never have) outsmarted themselves.
One further note on the use of these drones in a Riptide Wing: while the whole unit does not benefit from the +1 BS (just Riptides), they do from Hailfire.
Though, I've never understood the purpose of the ethereal council. just way too many VPs in that unit that its begging to be killed even more than usual.
Though, I've never understood the purpose of the ethereal council. just way too many VPs in that unit that its begging to be killed even more than usual.
I was making a fluffy fun footslogging list paired up with the ghostkeel wing. So the council would be fun if i stuck them in a devilfish that gets 2+ jink saves and they can essentially buff the crap out of my walking gunline.
Plainshow wrote:Unfortunately the Devilfish cannot carry bulky units.
BOO
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so came up with another NOVA list @1850... I actually really like this one.
CAD or Hunter Cadre ** i currently have 69 points left and could drop 1 piranha for a total of 130 points.. as is i am lacking 1 elite which i could fit with that easy.
- Commander, Iridium, Drone Cont, Target lock, 2 misslepod, 2 marker drone
- x5 Fire warriors
- x5 Fire warriors
- x5 Fire warriors
- x6 marker drones
- Storm surge, Pulse Blaster (D-shotty), Air burst, EWO, Shield
So guys what do you think? Part of me wants to use the HC just to get the Dawn Blade rules...
I am thinking of dropping a piranha for 1 ghostkeel.. mainly because at NOVA anything under a blast is a target.. so I can use the Ghostkeel to stop any turn 1 alpha strike huge blasts on my piranha or whatever.
OR
Dropping the drone squad.. using a 4 man pathfinder team to help stop infiltrators some, and bringing a 2 man missile pod crisis team with marker drones *would also require me to drop a piranha*, but adds some additional utility on the board.
I saw someone do the maths on Stims for Riptides, apparently while it's not a bad buy, mathematically, it's really not a must buy for tides at all.
I'd run your main as a CAD, if you're just after the stormsurge and Drone Commander, i'd probably switch the firewarriors out for two crisis suits with whatever and make it an FSE CAD. Something like a Skyray would fill out the list nicely if you have the model.
Made my first of 3 ghostkeels last night, gah, I really dislike the assembly part of the hobby! Painting I don't mind, but gluing a large model together can suck it! At least after the 1st one, the other two should be much more straightforward.
Going to try them in the OSC and Ghostkeel Wing to see which is the better fit, I already own the stealthsuits, so may as well try both variants. On paper, the OSC obviously is much more offensive and has gotten the fanfare as a powerful formation. The stealth buff of the wing though and no required stealth suits has something going for it in a pure Tau army imo.
Optimized Stealth Cadre is really fantastic, and yeah those models were fun to put together. That particular model is one of the neatest ones I have ever done. it's more work but they really are fantastic as a model goes.
I'm looking forward to getting my other ghostkeel put together. I kind of stopped aftr the first one because it was a fair amount of work and I hate that side of the hobby in general so i had to take a break. But the model is really cool.
Bryan01 wrote: I saw someone do the maths on Stims for Riptides, apparently while it's not a bad buy, mathematically, it's really not a must buy for tides at all.
I can definitely save points by not bringing it.. but I am fearful if I don't then i fall very weak to a large alpha strike or long range grav counter deployment (admech effective 36" range). Because of the limited model count, each riptide is a huge loss to the offense of the list.
I'd run your main as a CAD, if you're just after the stormsurge and Drone Commander, i'd probably switch the firewarriors out for two crisis suits with whatever and make it an FSE CAD. Something like a Skyray would fill out the list nicely if you have the model.
My main concern is lack of markerlights.. I am curious how it will play out. My other list I posted in the lists section of the forum was with a drone net instead of the firestream... spread markers out or delete one unit a turn.. unsure on which would be more beneficial.
I would have to agree that you are short on markerlights. If you go for an alpha strike and launch all 4 d-missiles on 1st turn that will take 8 markers: 2 for bs, 2 for cover, and 1 for each missile. Most likely you won't have enough to cover that. If you just launch one you've used five and won't have more than one or two left for the rest of your army. Now you still have to fire the rest of the missiles in subsequent turns. If you only fired one a round, that's four turns that everyone else has to actually aim for themselves! The very shame!
I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that stims really are indispensable for riptides. Not just for failed novas, as those are pretty slim with the formation, but I mean.....you literally get an effective 5 extra wounds for the whole formation. Now, yes, some might say "well just take another riptide for not many more points" and I can agree with that. I will probably never run it, but I think that a 5 man riptide wing with 2 2 1 squads would be pretty bonkers. So durable. The great thing about monstrous creatures is that they function at full efficiency from full wounds down to 1. So the longer it stays alive, the longer you are in great shape and your opponent is sad.
I've never had much of a problem with my Riptides dying, even with an abundance of grav around. If I have some extra points that I don't really want to spend on units, stims are great, but I do think you're better off buying that extra Riptide. That's particularly true if you can field your third Riptide in a unit for that cost. An extra BS on 3 HBC tides makes a huge difference.
While we're kind of tangentially on the subject, I'm not entirely sold on HBC Riptides. Even with nova re-rolls, it's a bit of a bummer to spend your nova charge on simply making your main weapon worthwhile. Tau don't exactly have a problem fielding a bunch of mid-strength firepower, so I'd probably prefer to get it elsewhere (Broadsides and Ghostkeels, most likely). If nothing else, you can save the stim points and just slap 3++ on your ion tide every turn. Rolling with iontides also makes Hailfire that much better since you can spam your secondary system like a maniac.
MilkmanAl wrote: I've never had much of a problem with my Riptides dying, even with an abundance of grav around. If I have some extra points that I don't really want to spend on units, stims are great, but I do think you're better off buying that extra Riptide. That's particularly true if you can field your third Riptide in a unit for that cost. An extra BS on 3 HBC tides makes a huge difference.
While we're kind of tangentially on the subject, I'm not entirely sold on HBC Riptides. Even with nova re-rolls, it's a bit of a bummer to spend your nova charge on simply making your main weapon worthwhile. Tau don't exactly have a problem fielding a bunch of mid-strength firepower, so I'd probably prefer to get it elsewhere (Broadsides and Ghostkeels, most likely). If nothing else, you can save the stim points and just slap 3++ on your ion tide every turn. Rolling with iontides also makes Hailfire that much better since you can spam your secondary system like a maniac.
The value for HBC is that when you get that rending, they can deal with pretty much anything. The blast might scatter or they could just not have a ton of great targets. And the turn you fire twice.....24 str 6 rending shots that are inherently AP 4...makes a scatbike blush.
You're right that you can get durability in other ways with an iontide, who doesn't need to nova. In my particular list, I have stormsurges (not a typo haha) who already have pieplates for days, thus covering the benefit of the iontide. So it's more important for me to have those shots. But you're right - Tau can get str 6/7 ap 4/5 in bulk shots for literal days. Hardly something that can only come from a riptide.
The keels can be vulnerable once their holophotons are gone (not that this is a big deal unless they're also packing a ton of ignores cover). They also have a much shorter range compared to the riptide, which is the main issue that I have with them.
Broadsides are of course vulnerable to ID and have only a cover save to redeem them, plus have more prevalent leadership issues, and are way less mobile, even if you do the run and shoot shenanigans
I can't really disagree with any of that, though I feel like the only place HBC tides excel is durability. Granted, that's a pretty big deal, considering they operate at maximum potency until they die. I don't think the HBC is a bad option, by any means, but I think I prefer ionizing things. Once I'm not poor as hell (in terms of both free time and money), I'll give the HBC some work.
MilkmanAl wrote: I can't really disagree with any of that, though I feel like the only place HBC tides excel is durability. Granted, that's a pretty big deal, considering they operate at maximum potency until they die. I don't think the HBC is a bad option, by any means, but I think I prefer ionizing things. Once I'm not poor as hell (in terms of both free time and money), I'll give the HBC some work.
I don't understand what you mean by that? Are you still comparing HBC to ion? Because I think that, if anything, the HBC has less in the way of durability, or at least that it sacrifices more in the way of offense if it increases its durability via 3++ nova.
Jancoran wrote: I am no longer on that fence. Total is about $400 including hotel. So it should be a good time. My wifes not happy but.. I'll get her some flowers.
I must be doing it wrong haha. That's just the flight for me. I would do $400 for everything in a heartbeat
Oh right uh...tactics....put shields on your Stormsurges kids
Jancoran wrote: I am no longer on that fence. Total is about $400 including hotel. So it should be a good time. My wifes not happy but.. I'll get her some flowers.
I must be doing it wrong haha. That's just the flight for me. I would do $400 for everything in a heartbeat
Oh right uh...tactics....put shields on your Stormsurges kids
Hehehe. Righto. back to Tactics it is.
Well I have two options whenb I go to this Bay Area Open. Option one: I can bring my usual unorthodox list and make it happen that way. another path to ultimate victory is to go positively for blood and institute the scorched earth philosophy of lit building.
The reality is that one relies on tactics (at which i am skilled) and the other relies on Net-Think. In other words, the general agreement of powerful units heaped in with powerful units and so on. Powerful units do impinge generally on flexibility and board presence and they rely increasingly on killing things which the ITC missions aren't really solely about. So i lean as ever on the tactical side of the coin with lots of units so i am never unprepared for anything while specializing in the extermination of nothing in particular as I am as likely to null deploy as i am to try and blow things off the board.
Kill Points will INEVITABLY be a part of the missions in some form or fashion so in a tournament like this, elite units (literally) are the least disadvantaged because the Fast attack and Heavy Support missions both spot the enemy points. So elites seem important from a theoretical list building standpoint and this is no doubt why the Riptide Wings and other such devices do appeal to people. not just because they are good but because they are not disadvantaged inherently by the missions themselves.
So we want to spend some points there. We also know that HQ's should be hearty since they are a critical element of maxing your scores at a tournament of this magnitude and if you plan to make it to the top, you have to value the Warlord.
Line Breaking is in fact a thing and an objective so that has to be a thought also. A later game, resilient and stealthy unit is preferable though not a strict necessity.
I feel that the way the ITC missions now bnefit alpha strikes to the Nth degree and that players going second are very disadvantaged at games end, that an alpha strike motif will be important. As long a they score the missions the way they are now that is...
spacelord321 wrote: I would have to agree that you are short on markerlights. If you go for an alpha strike and launch all 4 d-missiles on 1st turn that will take 8 markers: 2 for bs, 2 for cover, and 1 for each missile. Most likely you won't have enough to cover that. If you just launch one you've used five and won't have more than one or two left for the rest of your army. Now you still have to fire the rest of the missiles in subsequent turns. If you only fired one a round, that's four turns that everyone else has to actually aim for themselves! The very shame!
Ah, so the D upgrade is 1 markerlight and that is the only perk it gets? I will have to check that out again tonight.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
Sicarioos wrote: By the way you guys are talking I feel like my idea is not good now. Dropping my warlord in with the rest of my army for maximum 1 turn murderization.
Should this ... Not occur? I don't know how any of the missions work anymore so if this is a thing I wish to be enlightened, please.
So depends on your commanders role... If he is a buffmander and your running a crisis star, that is very effective, but also can be easily countered by your opponent and is limited on objective grabbing.
In my list, I am paying for maximum offense rather then toys so to speak. I need my commander to ensure that I get a clump of markerlights on the target I need wiped out that turn.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?
Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?
Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.
I don't remember off the top of my head what the formation rule specifically says.
BUT.. if it would specifically say something like "roll for the entire formation", or "the formation comes in together from reserve"... if it doesn't then you roll everything separately.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?
Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.
The buffmander is a commander that takes wargear that boost the effectiveness of his squad; i.e. command and control node, Multispectrum Sensor suite, Puretide Engram neurochip, etc. A commander with these wargear will not want to take weapons due to the requirement that the model does not shoot.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
I know. And that is why you take it.
Twin linked marker lights is good, but at BS5 already I am not too worried about it. Rather have him throwing some extra missles down the field. My personal preference tho, both are certainly viable.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?
Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.
The buffmander is a commander that takes wargear that boost the effectiveness of his squad; i.e. command and control node, Multispectrum Sensor suite, Puretide Engram neurochip, etc. A commander with these wargear will not want to take weapons due to the requirement that the model does not shoot.
I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
The CnC Node works wonders for when the BS of the Commander gets nullified. Firing at Invisible units, fliers, fireing back at Skyhammer after you fail your 3d6 Pinning check, shooting at Ghostkeels, and Culexus Assassins, etc. Just a few times it can be super useful. Plus, you can take Stims with the leftover points, and freed up slot. 2+ Look Out, 2+/5+FnP in 4+ cover can tank a good deal of shooting.
I too have a soft spot for a Commander with weapons. All that time playing FSE without Iridium got me used to a run-and-gun Mark'O. I have had good luck with the Commander with Iridium, Stims, Drone Controller, 2xMissile Pods. He can't fire off target, but he helps soften the unit for the guys firing next. Pretty cheap for what he does, but I also have Tetras for my Twin-Linked markerlight needs.
If you have issues getting Markerlights on hard to hit targets I would also second trying the CnC Node.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.
The CnC Node works wonders for when the BS of the Commander gets nullified. Firing at Invisible units, fliers, fireing back at Skyhammer after you fail your 3d6 Pinning check, shooting at Ghostkeels, and Culexus Assassins, etc. Just a few times it can be super useful. Plus, you can take Stims with the leftover points, and freed up slot. 2+ Look Out, 2+/5+FnP in 4+ cover can tank a good deal of shooting.
I too have a soft spot for a Commander with weapons. All that time playing FSE without Iridium got me used to a run-and-gun Mark'O. I have had good luck with the Commander with Iridium, Stims, Drone Controller, 2xMissile Pods. He can't fire off target, but he helps soften the unit for the guys firing next. Pretty cheap for what he does, but I also have Tetras for my Twin-Linked markerlight needs.
If you have issues getting Markerlights on hard to hit targets I would also second trying the CnC Node.
Yeah maybe its just my past experience as exactly you said.. not used to having Tau relics available. This list is going to be fine tuned i am sure. We will find out starting.. well.. in 8 hours
Played two games tonight with an 1850 that I wanted to try out. It gave up stims on the riptide wing in exchange for a drone net. Having jink, split fire and INTERCEPTOR on 16 of those dudes was insanely clutch. Both games the intercepting markerlights showed that they were worth their weight in gold.
As much as I would like to have stims on the Riptides, I think the drone net is better now.
Stormsurge w/pulse driver cannon, air bursting frag projector, shield, EWO Stormsurge w/pulse driver cannon, air bursting frag projector, shield, EWO
Riptide Wing (all 3 with SMS, HBC and EWO)
Drone Net (min size with all marker drones)
The two lists I played against were pretty nasty but this amount of firepower is pretty much in a league of its own
The only change I'm considering is using a burst cannon in exchange for the frag projector, but I think having the ignores cover barrage is worth losing a point of strength.
I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.
Wonderfully in the latest Farsight Enclaves Supplement, they changed the Signature Systems rules and now you can access both!
I have found the Warscaper Drone to be expensive, but a nice luxury. The Move Through Cover is really nice, especially with drones who seem to have about the collision avoidance tech of a Roomba. The benefits of the Outflank and Acute Senses are not to be overlooked. That combo can be either devistating, or useless, depending on the details of the game. You can build other parts of your list to amplify the effectiveness of the drone; using other outflankers and positional relays, homing beacons and deepstrikers come to mind. Reserve mitigations would be wise if you plan on doing that regularly, but with the standard Aegis/Comms (which gets even better with the Ghostkeel Wing) and now the Retaliation Cadre this is easier than before.
Multiple small units of Tetras have been good to me for this due to their low cost, 12" outflank move, and homing beacons. Using more than one unit gives a good chance one will come on to contribute.
Oh and also I'm thinking that the increase in accuracy might merit the command and control node for the commander instead of stims. Same cost and I think I'd rather have more guaranteed markerlights than a slight increase in durability for the commander. While it may deny warlord longer, not often are motivated players going to find it super difficult to kill a 4W T5 2+ save model, especially when his "invulnerable save" is basically "I hope I'm in cover"
I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.
Wonderfully in the latest Farsight Enclaves Supplement, they changed the Signature Systems rules and now you can access both!
I have found the Warscaper Drone to be expensive, but a nice luxury. The Move Through Cover is really nice, especially with drones who seem to have about the collision avoidance tech of a Roomba. The benefits of the Outflank and Acute Senses are not to be overlooked. That combo can be either devistating, or useless, depending on the details of the game. You can build other parts of your list to amplify the effectiveness of the drone; using other outflankers and positional relays, homing beacons and deepstrikers come to mind. Reserve mitigations would be wise if you plan on doing that regularly, but with the standard Aegis/Comms (which gets even better with the Ghostkeel Wing) and now the Retaliation Cadre this is easier than before.
Multiple small units of Tetras have been good to me for this due to their low cost, 12" outflank move, and homing beacons. Using more than one unit gives a good chance one will come on to contribute.
Is this in the Kauyon book? I only have the Mont'ka book. I'll have to order it to see. Are there new point values and stuff too?
A buffmander is decent, but I feel like I don't really have any groups of things that if I put the commander in would greatly benefit from him. Maybe the ignores cover because it's a free 2 markerlights on a riptide unit but .. Other than that my suits won't really benefit since it's only AP4. Am I mistaken to judge my armies shooting off how well it does vs MEQ? Should I be more conscious of other things? I haven't played in quite awhile, since before Eldar became a thing. Am I missing some key piece of this puzzle?
I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.
Wonderfully in the latest Farsight Enclaves Supplement, they changed the Signature Systems rules and now you can access both!
I have found the Warscaper Drone to be expensive, but a nice luxury. The Move Through Cover is really nice, especially with drones who seem to have about the collision avoidance tech of a Roomba. The benefits of the Outflank and Acute Senses are not to be overlooked. That combo can be either devistating, or useless, depending on the details of the game. You can build other parts of your list to amplify the effectiveness of the drone; using other outflankers and positional relays, homing beacons and deepstrikers come to mind. Reserve mitigations would be wise if you plan on doing that regularly, but with the standard Aegis/Comms (which gets even better with the Ghostkeel Wing) and now the Retaliation Cadre this is easier than before.
Multiple small units of Tetras have been good to me for this due to their low cost, 12" outflank move, and homing beacons. Using more than one unit gives a good chance one will come on to contribute.
Is this in the Kauyon book? I only have the Mont'ka book. I'll have to order it to see. Are there new point values and stuff too?
A buffmander is decent, but I feel like I don't really have any groups of things that if I put the commander in would greatly benefit from him. Maybe the ignores cover because it's a free 2 markerlights on a riptide unit but .. Other than that my suits won't really benefit since it's only AP4. Am I mistaken to judge my armies shooting off how well it does vs MEQ? Should I be more conscious of other things? I haven't played in quite awhile, since before Eldar became a thing. Am I missing some key piece of this puzzle?
it is in the (blue cover) FSE supplement. Fun thing about the buffmander build - if you wanted to, you could give all that stuff to a crisis shas'vre (after all, where else would your mark'o go?). If you play a hunter cadre, consider spreading the systems out across multiple suits - ignores cover on your missile pods, tling on your reapers, etc. Then, if you combine fire, the squads all gain the abilities (unless you play itc). Lastly, how well your shooting is depends entirely on your local meta.
luke1705 wrote: Oh and also I'm thinking that the increase in accuracy might merit the command and control node for the commander instead of stims. Same cost and I think I'd rather have more guaranteed markerlights than a slight increase in durability for the commander. While it may deny warlord longer, not often are motivated players going to find it super difficult to kill a 4W T5 2+ save model, especially when his "invulnerable save" is basically "I hope I'm in cover"
Good maneuvering will go a long way in keeping him alive, with or without Stims. If you feel you want more coverage on offence, go CnC. I think it can be devistating when used in conjunction a list like yours. The one unit of Stormsurges can devistate a unit they would normally barely touch due to snapfireing, with just a few sixes from the Commander's Twin-Linked Markerdrones.
I'm quite surprised at the amount of love a decked-out pure Mark'O is getting. In the current climate of Drone Nets all over the place, 93+ points is an exorbitant amount to spend on 4 BS5 marker light shots per turn, especially when they're now starting at BS3. You have to join the bare-bones Mark'O to a unit of 11 drones before that becomes a winning proposition in terms of marker hits per point, and that number climb as you add wargear to your commander. It's a bit more worthwhile if you go with the old school of thought and have a sizable Marker Drone unit for the boss to roll with and a target lock to allow him to shoot his weapons at something else. I understand that adding durability to your main marker source is a driving factor in having a Mark'O, but is he really that much more durable than 7-9 drones that can jink and go to ground for a 3+ save? That one is a bit of a toss-up, I suppose. At the very least, I guess he's probably better at sucking up any spare small arms fire your opponent may choose to toss your way.
Of course, if you're ignoring ITC and allowing a buffmander's special rules to work with everything shooting at a single target with him. He then becomes an auto-include in any army sporting a Hunter Contingent.
The idea is that you must field a HQ and often a commander is by far the best choice (I have zero fire warriors for a Cadre guy to join).
Then it is a case of force multiplying, spending 8pts to make use of BS5. Whilst you can buy a drone net... that costs more than 8pts. The minimum expenditure is high.
If, like lots of people, you are running a riptide or three and maybe a stormsurge, Tetra and such, a commander won't have any place to go, other than a drone squad. Such a drone squad can be purchased cheaply and the Dv of improvement is great!
Razerous wrote: The idea is that you must field a HQ and often a commander is by far the best choice (I have zero fire warriors for a Cadre guy to join).
Then it is a case of force multiplying, spending 8pts to make use of BS5. Whilst you can buy a drone net... that costs more than 8pts. The minimum expenditure is high.
If, like lots of people, you are running a riptide or three and maybe a stormsurge, Tetra and such, a commander won't have any place to go, other than a drone squad. Such a drone squad can be purchased cheaply and the Dv of improvement is great!
I kind of wonder if having a single big markerlight unit (Mark'O and blob of marker drones) is any better than having four smaller marker drone units (Drone Net). I had a few marker drones go down in a game recently and I rolled an 11 for leadership on my Mark'O squad, which promptly fled off the table. At least with four smaller units your opponent has to track down more stuff and waste more shots doing it. I think it might be kind of like "six in one hand, a half dozen in the other". Both strategies have their pros and cons.
You are right about that the commander is the best HQ choice for Tau, though. Fireblades are situational (good only for large Fire Warrior blobs), Ethereals are very much a risk even if their abilities are good, and most of the named characters are also pretty situational. The Commander is like the Tau version of Space Marine Chapter Masters, Chaos Lords, Ork Warbosses, and Necron Overlords. All of these characters are swiss army knives for their respective armies.
That depends how you want to split your fire. Unless the big blob is also from the formation, you can only shoot at 1 unit (and therefore you only have markerlights for one unit). That's not insignificant. And the benefit of intercepting drones with split fire...jink...I don't think I can go back
Having essentially guaranteed markerlights (and more durable markerlights) is a thing.
Well, like I said, the statistical break-even point for a buffmander is (just under) 11 drones, assuming a starting BS of 3. The drone net flipped the script a bit on that one. Hitting more often with fewer drones but for the same amount of marker light hits isn't a guarantee. You're just messing with the probabilities a little. I'm also not totally sold on 4 T5 2+ wounds being markedly more durable than 8-ish T4 3+ cover wounds in multiple units. I think that one is more of a meta/judgment call than anything.
You're right that the stat-check durability might not be worth everything, but I also take into account standard deviation.
Say you run a unit of 4 drones with your commander, who has the CNC chip. You're hitting on a re-rollable 2+. Chances of getting 4 markerlights? 90 percent.
Compare that to your normal BS 3 drones, who get 4 hits a mere 6% of the time, just as much as they get zero hits. 25% of the time, they get 3 hits, but that is equally as likely to wind up as just one hit. The two hit result only happens 37% of the time.
40k is a dice game, but the best lists make things less of a dice game and more reliable. Any time you can do that, it very well can be worth it's weight in gold. And with split fire, that can affect two squads
luke1705 wrote: You're right that the stat-check durability might not be worth everything, but I also take into account standard deviation.
Say you run a unit of 4 drones with your commander, who has the CNC chip. You're hitting on a re-rollable 2+. Chances of getting 4 markerlights? 90 percent.
Compare that to your normal BS 3 drones, who get 4 hits a mere 6% of the time, just as much as they get zero hits. 25% of the time, they get 3 hits, but that is equally as likely to wind up as just one hit. The two hit result only happens 37% of the time.
40k is a dice game, but the best lists make things less of a dice game and more reliable. Any time you can do that, it very well can be worth it's weight in gold. And with split fire, that can affect two squads
Oh and LD 10 is nice too
So is it even worth it to run a Dawn Blade contingent in 1850 points? Are the command benefits worth it, or is it better to just have a cad and formation detatchments, or only formation detatchments? I felt like the Killing Blow was pretty decent, especially since strength D and 10 weapons are hard to come by nowadays, with hammerheads being bad...?
luke1705 wrote: You're right that the stat-check durability might not be worth everything, but I also take into account standard deviation.
Say you run a unit of 4 drones with your commander, who has the CNC chip. You're hitting on a re-rollable 2+. Chances of getting 4 markerlights? 90 percent.
Compare that to your normal BS 3 drones, who get 4 hits a mere 6% of the time, just as much as they get zero hits. 25% of the time, they get 3 hits, but that is equally as likely to wind up as just one hit. The two hit result only happens 37% of the time.
40k is a dice game, but the best lists make things less of a dice game and more reliable. Any time you can do that, it very well can be worth it's weight in gold. And with split fire, that can affect two squads
Oh and LD 10 is nice too
But for the cost of that unit you can run a unit of 11 drones who will get 4 or more a lot of the time
The dawn blade contingent is good against big squads or deathstars because your efficiency goes up, but only against 1 unit. It's not unlike having one big unit of markerlights, except that you can't ignore cover. I prefer the command benefit of having a CAD with objective secured, but to be honest I haven't given the dawn blade a fair shake. I think it's pretty good unless you're going up against a mega MSU list like battle company.
Oldmike,
How long do you think those 11 drones are going to last though? Against non-AP 2 weaponry, the commander saves 3 times more wounds than a standard drone, doesn't cause leadership checks when he loses wounds, and is inherently LD 10. His four wounds are like 12 drone wounds.
Furthermore, I say again who else are you going to have as your warlord? There are definitely good options to have with him having weapons as a buffmander - it just doesn't work in my list and TBH you could get a budget buffmander in any squad of crisis suits.
Assembled my 2nd Ghostkeel, much more straightforward then the 1st time round. Looking forward to giving my updated Tau a spin!
Running at 1850, a tanky buffmander with drone controller, A ministar of 9 crisis suits with missile pods and target locks + 3 ablative bodies...ahem I mean marker drones. A single crisis suit to fill out the other troop slot with missile pods. 3 skyrays with disruption pods and an OSC with the full 3 Ghostkeels (fusion, EWO, target locks on two), two units of 3 stealth suits and finally to round it off...an inquisitor with servo skulls.
Most people around here run good, but not ultra competitive lists, so I think it'll fit the bill. Has some obvious weaknesses in lacking ap2 and psychic defense. Wouldn't be too difficult to fit in a culexus with some shuffling, but whilst I've run into the psychic deathstar, it isn't a regular occurrence.
Can inquisition take a fortification if they are your primary faction? Was thinking of making the inquisitor the warlord so I could make the FSE Cad an allied detachment, dropping the single crisis suit and disruption pods on the skyrays, consolidating the Rays into a single unit and using the saved points to run a void shield generator which can help vs some psychic powers I've read and is handy in general.
Bryan01 wrote: Assembled my 2nd Ghostkeel, much more straightforward then the 1st time round. Looking forward to giving my updated Tau a spin!
Running at 1850, a tanky buffmander with drone controller, A ministar of 9 crisis suits with missile pods and target locks + 3 ablative bodies...ahem I mean marker drones. A single crisis suit to fill out the other troop slot with missile pods. 3 skyrays with disruption pods and an OSC with the full 3 Ghostkeels (fusion, EWO, target locks on two), two units of 3 stealth suits and finally to round it off...an inquisitor with servo skulls.
Most people around here run good, but not ultra competitive lists, so I think it'll fit the bill. Has some obvious weaknesses in lacking ap2 and psychic defense. Wouldn't be too difficult to fit in a culexus with some shuffling, but whilst I've run into the psychic deathstar, it isn't a regular occurrence.
Can inquisition take a fortification if they are your primary faction? Was thinking of making the inquisitor the warlord so I could make the FSE Cad an allied detachment, dropping the single crisis suit and disruption pods on the skyrays, consolidating the Rays into a single unit and using the saved points to run a void shield generator which can help vs some psychic powers I've read and is handy in general.
So I have seen that pretty prevalent around here. Why do you run missile pods over the other options for suits? I can understand the plasma rifles because ap2, but missile pods seems ... Underwhelming to me.
The missile pod is a pretty good all rounder option imo. It has range, ap and strength, combined with an okay rate of fire. Not terribly keen on the lone suit with them, but the mini star crisis suits can each target separate units, with tank/monster hunter, ignore cover and twin linked. I've run a smaller version of this unit a few times, and it wrecks light vehicles! Can hurt most other things via wound/hp spam whilst the buffmander (2+ save, t5, 5+ fnp) & drones tank shots for the unit.
Any other weapon besides the missile pods would necessitate the unit getting into closer range.
Jancoran wrote: command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.
If you have issues getting Markerlights on hard to hit targets I would also second trying the CnC Node.
So ran my list this weekend, Opted to take your advice and ran C&C node on Mark'o gave him 2 flamers as well.. mainly I had to quickly fill points, but I will adjust my list a bit more again.
WOW is all I have to say... my buddy was running a 2 CADGK army with 6 dreadknights, I have seen it played before and was a little nervous.. until i was done my turn 1 and had killed three of them. and then turn 2 when two more went down... it was pretty much a slaughter from there, the riptide wing with burst tides was simply an abomination. I will never use it in a casual game, it was too devastating.
The dawn blade contingent is good against big squads or deathstars because your efficiency goes up, but only against 1 unit. It's not unlike having one big unit of markerlights, except that you can't ignore cover. I prefer the command benefit of having a CAD with objective secured, but to be honest I haven't given the dawn blade a fair shake. I think it's pretty good unless you're going up against a mega MSU list like battle company.
Oldmike,
How long do you think those 11 drones are going to last though? Against non-AP 2 weaponry, the commander saves 3 times more wounds than a standard drone, doesn't cause leadership checks when he loses wounds, and is inherently LD 10. His four wounds are like 12 drone wounds.
Furthermore, I say again who else are you going to have as your warlord? There are definitely good options to have with him having weapons as a buffmander - it just doesn't work in my list and TBH you could get a budget buffmander in any squad of crisis suits.
You be shocked how well jinking drone nets stay up 11 drones are almost 3/4 of the net. I use my commander to attack and tank for a crisis team
Plasma rifles.
I want to run a dawn blade but yet to have a chance
I want to run a dawn blade but yet to have a chance
I really like the Dawn Blade.. at the same time, I think the Hunter Cadre requires too many units, and while the retaliation cadre is great, it also pigeon holes you. You only get reserve and BS bonuses when the entire formation deep strikes.. so you can't say deploy your riptide or broadsides and reserve the rest and receive the bonus.
While that is fine, it then puts you in a situation, that if you were going to do that anyway.. you might as well have just run a CAD and kept objective secured because it is the best troop ability in the game (if you have objectives).
Grizzyzz wrote: WOW is all I have to say... my buddy was running a 2 CADGK army with 6 dreadknights, I have seen it played before and was a little nervous.. until i was done my turn 1 and had killed three of them. and then turn 2 when two more went down... it was pretty much a slaughter from there, the riptide wing with burst tides was simply an abomination. I will never use it in a casual game, it was too devastating.
Nice! GK Dreadknight Spam can be tough to crack without a ton of AP2. Did you see many rends on the HBCs or did you just force buckets of saves? I'm glad you ended up putting together a nutcracker. I know I can hem and haw for hours over a list.
That's one frustration you don't want to complain too loud about: having so many good units and formations that you can get a migraine trying to fit all together (First World Problems). You can take lots of the good stuff, but if it doesn't work cohesively, you still can get crushed. The flipside is great, though. Getting a force that works as a whole AND fits the style of play that you have=pure bliss.
Nice! GK Dreadknight Spam can be tough to crack without a ton of AP2. Did you see many rends on the HBCs or did you just force buckets of saves?
So game pretty much went like this. **note.. my warlord trait was reroll 1s bubble... so clutch with this list**
Turn 1a - GKs, shunted 5 dreads up and with flamers blew away my two units of tetras.. my saving grace is that he needed 2 per squad limiting fire on other things.. but he was trying to take all the markers he could away, and no possible way to have charged me this turn anyway which is what he wants. He only got off 3 santuary's. His warlord and marines dropped down but scattered 12" back.. honestly saving them as they wouldn't have done much anyway.. I denied his psychic shriek (talismon bubble)
Turn 1b - My drone commander lit up one dreadknight without sanctuary. Riptides w/ reroll nova all got their rend cannons spinning. Storm surge used the 6 markerlights i had on the knight to launch 2 missles at bs5... and i rolled both hits.. and a 6... even with ITC nerf.. that was enough to take him out. Stormsurge then used his assault 2 D shotty and blew up another non sancuary knight. I popped my hailfire this turn and don't remember how many rends.. about average it seemed.. but with 6 shooting attacks going out with 12 rending shots each.. it was a combo of weight of dice and rends that wiped out 1 more Knight with sanctuary, and wounding the others. I gambled and charged my stormsurge at his nearest dread and didnt roll a 6 on stomps boo...
* surge and knight were locked in combat for the rest of the game *
Turn 2a GK second libby did not come in from reserves.. marines did.. his Dread did the only thing he could which was move up to charge a riptide. And with counterfire I managed a few hits.. and he failed a save and died (only had one wound left) His warlord and marines went to charge another riptide, but failed the charge..
Turn 2b Nova'd up the riptides again.. blew away his warlord and at this point the game was pretty much over... I had this piranha wing that was just kinda hanging out.. they killed off some marines with their seeker missiles here and there.
Grizzyzz wrote: You only get reserve and BS bonuses when the entire formation deep strikes..
You get the +1BS from Drop Zone Clear as long as you arrive from deepstrike. I agree that the bonuses are not worth trading ObSec. Even in a Dawn Bade I stil find the Hunter Cadre to be my go-to core choice due to the flexibility of the unit selection. Especially since I have a hard time not bringing a Stormsurge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grizzyzz wrote: So game pretty much went like this. **note.. my warlord trait was reroll 1s bubble... so clutch with this list**
I have just taken to rolling on the command table as well. I find that while Strategic is still probably the better overall chart, this trait and the leadership bubble trait can be so game changing, it's worth it. When I run the Ghostkeel wing I roll Strategic exclusively, just to maximize the chance to get Night Attacker or Conquerer of Cities and have the wing hand out Shrouded instead of Stealth.
As compared with the list posted previously, you sacrifice a little durability (Crisis Suits vs. a bunch of bodies plus a Riptide) but gain a decent amount of firepower and a lot of mobility and flexibility. With the suits - which are all individual units - Deep Striking, you aren't limited to coming in off of a board edge and can (ideally) target your alpha strike exactly where you need it.
I was thinking of retooling some upgrades to get iridium on the Commander, but whatever works. He'll probably hop around with the fusion suits or possibly the Pathfinders. I don't have a well-defined role for him in mind, beyond the obvious drop-n-pop.
Nice! GK Dreadknight Spam can be tough to crack without a ton of AP2. Did you see many rends on the HBCs or did you just force buckets of saves?
So game pretty much went like this. **note.. my warlord trait was reroll 1s bubble... so clutch with this list**
Turn 1a - GKs, shunted 5 dreads up and with flamers blew away my two units of tetras.. my saving grace is that he needed 2 per squad limiting fire on other things.. but he was trying to take all the markers he could away, and no possible way to have charged me this turn anyway which is what he wants. He only got off 3 santuary's. His warlord and marines dropped down but scattered 12" back.. honestly saving them as they wouldn't have done much anyway.. I denied his psychic shriek (talismon bubble)
Turn 1b - My drone commander lit up one dreadknight without sanctuary. Riptides w/ reroll nova all got their rend cannons spinning. Storm surge used the 6 markerlights i had on the knight to launch 2 missles at bs5... and i rolled both hits.. and a 6... even with ITC nerf.. that was enough to take him out. Stormsurge then used his assault 2 D shotty and blew up another non sancuary knight. I popped my hailfire this turn and don't remember how many rends.. about average it seemed.. but with 6 shooting attacks going out with 12 rending shots each.. it was a combo of weight of dice and rends that wiped out 1 more Knight with sanctuary, and wounding the others. I gambled and charged my stormsurge at his nearest dread and didnt roll a 6 on stomps boo...
* surge and knight were locked in combat for the rest of the game *
Turn 2a GK second libby did not come in from reserves.. marines did.. his Dread did the only thing he could which was move up to charge a riptide. And with counterfire I managed a few hits.. and he failed a save and died (only had one wound left) His warlord and marines went to charge another riptide, but failed the charge..
Turn 2b Nova'd up the riptides again.. blew away his warlord and at this point the game was pretty much over... I had this piranha wing that was just kinda hanging out.. they killed off some marines with their seeker missiles here and there.
I'm glad you ended up putting together a nutcracker. I know I can hem and haw for hours over a list.
*remembers MTG* *shudders*
Can confirm. HBC riptide wing not for friendly games. Stormsurges don't help but I wouldn't feel bad in a normal game unless I was using two.
Played a game against eldar last week with the most brutal interceptor phase I've ever had. He came down with 2 deepstriking wraithguard units, a deepstriking fire warrior squad, and was left with....2 wraithguard.
So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.
Sicarioos wrote: So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.
It destroys tanks and infantry alike. It can oneshot a land raider with ease. On lighter vehicles (say a squadron of vindicators) it could easily maneuver for side armor with the 24" move, then light up (on average) about 3 haywire hits, plus 3 str 8 hits, which should glance/pen twice. That's roughly 6 hull points off AV 11. On AVERAGE.
The infantry flamer it can fire twice, so those pesky invulnerable saves or to wound rolls are of no consequence. Torrent is very good, even at only 6" torrent.
Where it wants to be (right where the action is) it has a native 4++ as well. I'm just waiting for the day that forge world says "you may take these in a riptide wing". You drive a hard bargain. Three please.
Sicarioos wrote: So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.
I found out firsthand how brutal they are the other day at a tournament. My Tau were facing an opponent's Tau with a Y'Vahra. That thing was just brutal. Of course it didn't help that my Stormsurge's alpha strike failed utterly (4 D missiles fired at his Stormsurge at BS5, all at D strength. 1 miss, 2 of the hits rolled a 1 on the D table, he saved the other hit), and then on his turn my Stormsurge got blown off the table (he rolled 2 6's on the D table). That Y'Vahra ate up most of everything else, though.
Sicarioos wrote: So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.
It destroys tanks and infantry alike. It can oneshot a land raider with ease. On lighter vehicles (say a squadron of vindicators) it could easily maneuver for side armor with the 24" move, then light up (on average) about 3 haywire hits, plus 3 str 8 hits, which should glance/pen twice. That's roughly 6 hull points off AV 11. On AVERAGE.
The infantry flamer it can fire twice, so those pesky invulnerable saves or to wound rolls are of no consequence. Torrent is very good, even at only 6" torrent.
Where it wants to be (right where the action is) it has a native 4++ as well. I'm just waiting for the day that forge world says "you may take these in a riptide wing". You drive a hard bargain. Three please.
Don't forget that his Haywire cannon also has blind, a VERY clutch ability against low initiative armies like Necrons.
But the utility of the model comes from its distraction value; it's almost as durable as a Riptide and it will be annihilating your opponent's back field. Unlike actual Riptides, your opponent will have to do something about this highly mobile and destructive unit. Put him in the gak and he will not disappoint.
Oldmike wrote: So anyone try the forge world tau SH I am wondering if it's worth it over than a storm surge
That thing is genuinely mean for anything other than apoc and/or very casual games. It is stupidly durable and very good offensively. Should have been much more than 600 points. Looks awesome though. If you can't get enough robot suits, go for it!
Just be aware that a lot of armies literally cannot handle it, and that is a very cheap 600 point deathstar.
I've got an unconventional army if anyone is interested in reviewing it, but that aside I have a viability question for the Firestream Wing formation.
So, my idea is this: using a full 5-model unit and stringing them out at maximum coherency so that one is always within 6" of a board edge. That way one could utilize the fusion blaster on the piranha anywhere on the board without risk of the unit being isolated too far from their escape edge.
Just a quick thought but I can't recall anyone ever discussing this before, so just throwing it out there to see what bites!
I've got an unconventional army if anyone is interested in reviewing it, but that aside I have a viability question for the Firestream Wing formation.
So, my idea is this: using a full 5-model unit and stringing them out at maximum coherency so that one is always within 6" of a board edge. That way one could utilize the fusion blaster on the piranha anywhere on the board without risk of the unit being isolated too far from their escape edge.
Just a quick thought but I can't recall anyone ever discussing this before, so just throwing it out there to see what bites!
So your two hundred point unit is contributing one BS3 Fusion Blaster to the fight?
So your two hundred point unit is contributing one BS3 Fusion Blaster to the fight?
No, that's garbage.
Ah, yes, intriguing point! So glad for the civil conversation!
Garbage isn't too harsh. The idea is pretty bad.
Using that many pirhanas to make use of mobile impossible terrain might be cool, just be wary of krak (/str4) grenades. I.e. a fast unit cannot move fast if it is screened from some/all movement. Whilst it can engage the screening unit, you then get to control the situation.
Actually the Ta'unar isnt "as" broken as one might think. Dont get me wrong, its still undercosted, but i initially thought ~300 too cheap...now that i have one...i'd say ~100 or 150 tops.
7" D template is crazy good but it doesnt do all that much that the rest of our army doesnt already do. It kills numbers and vehicles, with an added potential to kill MCs or SHV due to the melta arm and D shot (though still not "that" reliable). It cant hurt GMCs for gak unless you roll a Deathblow, and GMCs are the main thing Tau suffer against in big games. SHV are vulnerable to melta spam, which Tau do alot of already, GMCs are all T8+ (except the SS) so our weapons all wound like crap or are very, very expensive for a 50-50 at very close range (meaning if we dont kill it, odds are our low RoF guns just went byebye).
Then...we look at this things durability. It does NOT die. T9, 10wounds, 2+ armor, 4++ in shooting 5++ in melee, FNP, and a unique ability to middle-finger a Deathblow once a turn. Its just hilarious how much gak this thing has tanked for me and even after 5 games with it i STILL havnt seen ti even get to critical wound levels let alone die. Including facing against Eldar D-spam (granted, wraithguard blow up before they get to him but theres still 1-2 WK with their guns and another charging down the battlefield...still didnt die lol)
Its undercost goes to its durability. Offensively, its not that crazy considering what it is.
So your two hundred point unit is contributing one BS3 Fusion Blaster to the fight?
No, that's garbage.
Ah, yes, intriguing point! So glad for the civil conversation!
Garbage isn't too harsh. The idea is pretty bad.
Using that many pirhanas to make use of mobile impossible terrain might be cool, just be wary of krak (/str4) grenades. I.e. a fast unit cannot move fast if it is screened from some/all movement. Whilst it can engage the screening unit, you then get to control the situation.
Actually, this entire response if the garbage. People come here for advice, not to be insulted for daring to ask for it. Just saying.
I've got an unconventional army if anyone is interested in reviewing it, but that aside I have a viability question for the Firestream Wing formation.
So, my idea is this: using a full 5-model unit and stringing them out at maximum coherency so that one is always within 6" of a board edge. That way one could utilize the fusion blaster on the piranha anywhere on the board without risk of the unit being isolated too far from their escape edge.
Just a quick thought but I can't recall anyone ever discussing this before, so just throwing it out there to see what bites!
So your two hundred point unit is contributing one BS3 Fusion Blaster to the fight?
No, that's garbage.
Effectiveness does not even come into question. Formation says ALL SURVIVING MODELS must be within 6" of the board edge in order to leave. So you can't do what your thinking.
Ah, yes, intriguing point! So glad for the civil conversation!
This isn't grade school, you don't get a gold star for trying real hard. If you can't handle someone telling you your idea is bad then don't put it onto a public forum.
Jancoran wrote:
Actually, this entire response if the garbage. People come here for advice, not to be insulted for daring to ask for it. Just saying.
There's a pretty huge gulf between Trust me, if I felt like insulting someone it would be blindingly obvious.
And to contribute instead of just taking offense to others, here's the top Tau list from Adepticon. Ignoring the fact it's an illegal build, I really wish I'd have seen it in action. The markerlight distribution is really strange, but I kind of love the mass of OS missile suits.
And to contribute instead of just taking offense to others, here's the top Tau list from Adepticon. Ignoring the fact it's an illegal build, I really wish I'd have seen it in action. The markerlight distribution is really strange, but I kind of love the mass of OS missile suits.
interesting list.. I don't think it is that good honestly. Not enough markerlights to make sure you can do a good D alpha strike on hard targets. In my opinion.
Also.. the only "illegal" part is the commander, which I think is a cut and paste error.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nope I original thought the points didn't match but I did the math with a cost of 2 missle pods per suit.. redoing the math with twin linked.. yeah he is illegal
Automatically Appended Next Post: How did this get past the list approval? lol
This year's Adepticon was plagued with army build errors, so much so that I'd go so far as to call them 'errors'. For example, the winning list was both illegally constructed AND over the points limit.
arent you suppose to have your army verified by someone at tournies? its not that hard to sneak an extra ~100pts into a list and play it off like its normal price.
Nominally, sure. But between the several hundred people attending, the vague rules and the ballooning number of supplements, formations and decurions GW releases, that's an almost impossible job.
4 Detachments? I was a TO at a tournament and we realized after round one that a guy had a bad list with an extra detachment in it. So we made him silently prize ineligible. That was our solution rather than create an odd number of players and have to mess with all that. We simply forfeited his games for him. =)
I understand that there were a lot of people and stuff but right around round 4, anyone with three straight wins needs to have their list looked at. They just have to. Because otherwise we are talking about this on the internet and their event becomes known as the "one you can cheat at".
There's a pretty huge gulf between Trust me, if I felt like insulting someone it would be blindingly obvious.
.
Okay tough guy.
Which is exactly what it is. Totally unnecessary. You're not wrong, but being right doesn't give you the right to insult people. Whether you can see that you did or not is sad but irrelevant to the fact that that is what you did.
To the OPs question, it's already been pointed out that it's not legal to do or particularly viable. You want your guys to be able to contribute substantially, not just a pot shot or two. We have 53 point deep striking suit squads that can do that better (and obsec an objective if you're FSE at the same time)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: 4 Detachments? I was a TO at a tournament and we realized after round one that a guy had a bad list with an extra detachment in it. So we made him silently prize ineligible. That was our solution rather than create an odd number of players and have to mess with all that. We simply forfeited his games for him. =)
I understand that there were a lot of people and stuff but right around round 4, anyone with three straight wins needs to have their list looked at. They just have to. Because otherwise we are talking about this on the internet and their event becomes known as the "one you can cheat at".
Honestly, I wish there was a way to just input it digitally. Battle scribe actually isn't awful. It does have some errors, but it would catch a lot of this stuff (or a similar program would). That could screen out a ton of the potential problems, though it wouldn't be a catch-all solution.
Probably not really the thread for all this in retrospect though.
I like what someone said earlier about the Tau'nar. It's true that the offensive output for the points isn't crazy (although my Tyrannic GMCs are still weeping silent tears in the corner). The problem is the durability. When you CANNOT kill it, it becomes a serious problem. Especially because 600 point deathstars should not be able to NEVER DIE and output that much firepower.
You'll get over it eventually. And when you stop playing PC police and instead contribute to the thread, I'm sure we'll all be fascinated.
luke1705 wrote:I like what someone said earlier about the Tau'nar. It's true that the offensive output for the points isn't crazy (although my Tyrannic GMCs are still weeping silent tears in the corner). The problem is the durability. When you CANNOT kill it, it becomes a serious problem. Especially because 600 point deathstars should not be able to NEVER DIE and output that much firepower.
It really is a solid chuck of shooting, though. Ten multimelta shots on a fast, tough platform is worth the 600 points all on it's lonesome. Adding in the ability to use markerlights and a 7" D shot and it's really over the top.
Does anyone have any experience with Remoras in 7th? I have a pair of them and I've been toying with pairing them with my OSC Stealth Suits. I've been using the stealth teams with a 'vre Markerlight and two Marker Drones as a decent fairly tough additional markers. I wouldn't normally, but seeing as I have to take the teams it's not a bad way to keep them working.
Does anyone have any experience with Remoras in 7th? I have a pair of them and I've been toying with pairing them with my OSC Stealth Suits. I've been using the stealth teams with a 'vre Markerlight and two Marker Drones as a decent fairly tough additional markers. I wouldn't normally, but seeing as I have to take the teams it's not a bad way to keep them working.
Hilarious. The courage of some people is ten fold on a forum what it deserves to be. I am just literally floored at what a tool you're being. The guy didnt make grand claims, he had an idea andf asked what we thought and its OK to tell him you wouldnt do it and why. Its another to come down like you are.
Your hard ass act is fun and all but you're why people outside of 40K hate 40K players. There's nowhere safe from this brand of bullying, is there? I don't care if you win NOVA, you don't get to treat people like that. If you're as smart as you hope, help the guy. Don't tear him down. Maybe a moderator needs to jump in here because it's their place to put people back in line, including me from time to time.
Be a resource if you're good. That's a better use of your time.
Does anyone have any experience with Remoras in 7th? I have a pair of them and I've been toying with pairing them with my OSC Stealth Suits. I've been using the stealth teams with a 'vre Markerlight and two Marker Drones as a decent fairly tough additional markers. I wouldn't normally, but seeing as I have to take the teams it's not a bad way to keep them working.
Hilarious. The courage of some people is ten fold on a forum what it deserves to be. I am just literally floored at what a tool you're being. The guy didnt make grand claims, he had an idea andf asked what we thought and its OK to tell him you wouldnt do it and why. Its another to come down like you are.
Your hard ass act is fun and all but you're why people outside of 40K hate 40K players. There's nowhere safe from this brand of bullying, is there? I don't care if you win NOVA, you don't get to treat people like that. If you're as smart as you hope, help the guy. Don't tear him down. Maybe a moderator needs to jump in here because it's their place to put people back in line, including me from time to time.
Be a resource if you're good. That's a better use of your time.
Hear, hear! I wish I could exalt this more than once!
To try to get the thread back on topic: Is the formation from Start Collecting! Tau Empire a good thing to include in a casual list? I'm wanting to play my Tau against a friend of mine, and I'm looking to take a more tame list since last time I ran a more optimized list I crushed him in 2 turns (granted, his Daemonkin list was not good). I realize that that formation is not tournament worthy, but is it ok for more casual play or should I avoid formations altogether?
i havnt heard anything about the formation in the start collecting box but the models are one hell of a buy on their own.
Even if you throw the Ethereal cost out the window and dont even factor him in, you are saving 40USD to get a Crisis squad and Firewarrior squad. Crisis trios are 75USD now, and Breacher/Striker boxes are 50USD. Thats 125USD before factoring in a character, which are usually 15-25USD depending on the model (i'd say hes 20 considering GW's "NEW FANCY MODEL!" overprice mentality).
I actually cant believe that box exists. The SM one isnt bad either, though the rest from what i know of their armies are badly mixed. The ork one...deffdredd...nuff said lol.
Oh man, you're getting really flustered over this. I'd say I'm sorry for having hurt your feelings, but I really don't want you to make me a liar.
I was correct. I was blunt. I wasn't especially unkind to Green himself, but you? If you can't handle someone being told they're wrong you need to learn that is a thing that happens or live eternally in impotent anger.
Oh man, you're getting really flustered over this. I'd say I'm sorry for having hurt your feelings, but I really don't want you to make me a liar.
I was correct. I was blunt. I wasn't especially unkind to Green himself, but you? If you can't handle someone being told they're wrong you need to learn that is a thing that happens or live eternally in impotent anger.
There is a line between blunt and rude that you crossed. Sorry that you can't see it but this has derailed a tactics thread for long enough.
You are right and yes you told the dude that he was wrong. But that doesn't mean that you get to be an asshat when you tell someone that they're wrong. There is a special kind of irony in the fact that you can see when other people are wrong but not when you are.
You can accept it or not but Jancoran is right. It's either time to move on or get a mod to tell you exactly what multiple people are saying - you were out of line and it's not acceptable to treat people that way.
Vineheart01 wrote: i havnt heard anything about the formation in the start collecting box but the models are one hell of a buy on their own.
Even if you throw the Ethereal cost out the window and dont even factor him in, you are saving 40USD to get a Crisis squad and Firewarrior squad. Crisis trios are 75USD now, and Breacher/Striker boxes are 50USD. Thats 125USD before factoring in a character, which are usually 15-25USD depending on the model (i'd say hes 20 considering GW's "NEW FANCY MODEL!" overprice mentality).
I actually cant believe that box exists. The SM one isnt bad either, though the rest from what i know of their armies are badly mixed. The ork one...deffdredd...nuff said lol.
I actually already have one of the boxes, and yes it is a great deal as far as the models. Especially since I got it from eBay for only about $65. The formation gives a special move as long as the unit moving is within 12" of the Ethereal. I feel like it may be tame enough for casual play, unlike some other formations (like the OSC or Riptide Wing). I guess I just answered my own question , although part of the point was to get the discussion in this thread back on the topic of Tau tactics rather than hurt feelings.
raverrn wrote: And to contribute instead of just taking offense to others, here's the top Tau list from Adepticon. Ignoring the fact it's an illegal build, I really wish I'd have seen it in action. The markerlight distribution is really strange, but I kind of love the mass of OS missile suits.
Just to clarify, apparently Kenneth himself posted in Tournament Discussions saying that this wasn't his list and BoK posted something totally bogus. So we don't know exactly what the top Tau player brought and his list might not have been illegal.
Played two 1850 games today vs Grey Knights with allied Severin loth and lots of rapier batteries, with three Dreadknights running as the shock and awe, plus a terminator unit with a Libby throwing gate and sanctuary out plus some other stuff for the fun times.
Was my 1st time running the OSC, with the three keels and 6 stealth suits, so was a bit nervous to face a fast army of teqs with lots of barrage and those knight flamers. The Ghostkeels did alright in both games, I basically moved them up the middle both times and ran them aggressively. In the 2nd game the shortfall of the formation was apparent, when an invisible Dreadknight caught them after a meh jet pack move. in hindsight, maybe I should try the stealth suits out as blockers for the keels against fast assault armies?
But overall, the Ghostkeels were pretty impressive! They soaked up fire until my opponent gave up on that idea. I was able to place the drones to avoid the worst of the heavy flamers and everything else snap fires for three turns. I ended up using the stealth suits as objective takers, which is an alright tax I guess for the formation bonuses.
Won both games, mainly due to my two scary units, the three Ghostkeels and a crisis suit unit of 9 suits with dual missile pods and target locks, + a tanky buffmander. Had to play that unit pretty careful with those batteries lobbing tons of barrage blasts. Still, can't sniff at a troop choice that puts out 36 twin linked st7 shots, ignoring cover and a choice of monster/tank hunter. Even against the 2+ saves of Dreadknights, I found with some marker support, they torrented them down.
Pretty set on getting a culexus into the list, to help at least give me more options then "run away from the invisible guys".
Dreadknights could be very scary to a Ghostkeel, mainly due to the fact that if you roll snake eyes for a thrust move you are a sitting duck, and if they get the charge your Ghostkeel unit is dead, dead, dead (S10 fists love to use T5 MC's as punching bags). Indeed, Dreadknights and centurions are why I like plasma rifles over missile pods on my Crisis units.
Well, the jump and charge ove of a DreadKnight is abut 19 inches on the average so only a 30" move would put it within a real threat range right? But that gives you a round to kill it. So i dunno? obviously if this actually all happens perfectly for the DreadKnight I agree. But there is a pretty fair amount you can do about it as the JSJ army that the Tau are.
Jancoran wrote: Well, the jump and charge ove of a DreadKnight is abut 19 inches on the average so only a 30" move would put it within a real threat range right? But that gives you a round to kill it. So i dunno? obviously if this actually all happens perfectly for the DreadKnight I agree. But there is a pretty fair amount you can do about it as the JSJ army that the Tau are.
Just run a heavy burst riptide wing, they love Dreadknight's
An invisible Dreadknight up in your face isn't immune to fire, but with three other units also up in your grill, the invisible unit I just ignored and hoped for a good jet pack move! Didn't quite work out.
So what are your thoughts on the new psychic powers and how they are going to affect things like drop lists and JSJ (Both of these things are what I was going to use in my army, and the new powers seem scary to me, because dangerous terrain everywhere.
That and we have little defense against psychic powers other than like a talisman.. Or is a culexus going to become mandatory?
Sicarioos wrote: So what are your thoughts on the new psychic powers and how they are going to affect things like drop lists and JSJ (Both of these things are what I was going to use in my army, and the new powers seem scary to me, because dangerous terrain everywhere.
That and we have little defense against psychic powers other than like a talisman.. Or is a culexus going to become mandatory?
Be a tau (I guess?) and build enough MLs into your list to fire at bsf5/ ignores cover with everything. The hunter contingent makes this rationally possible. This is our answer to the psychic phase... rule the shooting phase....
...and GW just gave us that power, for the exact reason of actually cornering ourselves. Darkstrider (in a hunter contingent) now lets railhead squads ID riptide squads, easily. And don't even get me started how easily he helps kill stormsurges.
i literally dont know a single person that rules the Coord Fire as sharing unit-wide rules. Its way, way, WAY too broken if it does (Buffmander for everyone!!)
The funny part is, if you do the math, Darkstrider buff tau RUINS the MC/GmC meta. Which was exactly what GW intended, IMHO. People are fighting it because it was given to the wrong faction, as far as they see it. I see it differently. With ignore cover as abundant as it with us, we are at the top of the list to ruin this meta with railheads firing at twin linked, monster hunter, ap1, str10. Deathrains wound riptides on 2s...
But... I also expect GW to do a complete 180 in the time until the next edition. I think they will bring back first turn assaults across the board, to a point where shooting seems hard to achieve, and I'm ok with this... I miss 3rd or 4th (?) 1st turn charge armies, even as a tau. It just makes the game so much more interesting. I think this will be 8th, and if so, I will play tau all the way through it, as I have all editions I've known.
Had an awesome game practicing for NOVA yesterday against a Tzeentch Demon list.
2x herolds on discs
Belakor
9x (3) Flamer units
9x (3) Screamer units
It was actually pretty scary, so much MSU, and the super annoying "demons hold objectives until you contest them", special rule.
TLDR Batrep - Tau won, but it was closer then one would think just watching. Stormsurge was a boss, first game i actually dropped anchors and wow.. Can't complain about riptides either, counterfire into CC they killed belakor and many flamers and heralds. My drone commander toughed it out and smashed heralds in the face.
I had a tournament yesterday with my Tau. I ran a Hunter Contingent, with only a Hunter Cadre and an Optimized Stealth Cadre. Here's the list I used:
Spoiler:
Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre:
Commander: 2x Missile Pod, Drone Controller, Target Lock, Iridium Suit, Neuroweb Jammer, 2x Marker Drone
Crisis Team: 3x suit with 2x Plasma Rifles and EWO on each, 2x Shield Drone
Crisis Team: 1x suit with 2x Fusion Blaster and VRT
Riptide: Ion Accelerator, TLSMS, EWO, Stims
Strike Team: 6 men, Tactical Turret
Strike Team: 5 men
Kroot Squad: 12 men, Sniper Rounds
Pathfinders: 7 men
Drones: 7 Marker Drones
Stormsurge: Pulse Driver, TL AFP, EWO, ATS, Shield Gen.
Optimized Stealth Cadre:
Ghostkeel: 1x suit, CIR, TL Fusion, EWO, VT
2x Stealth Team, each with: 3x suit, Shas'vre upgrade, Fusion and Markerlight and Target Lock on Shas'vre
I felt like I had a strong list, but I didn't do that well overall. My first game was against a player with Blood Angels and Ultramarines allies. I destroyed him badly enough that when his Ultramarines assault squad didn't come in on turn 3, he conceded the game, as he only had like 2 Ultramarines bikes on the table at that point (I had already nuked his Sanguinary Guard and Death Company units). For my second game, I was facing a nasty Chaos list with a Murderhorde (Herald of Khorne and 8 squads of 5 Khornedogs), a Daemons CAD (Fateweaver and 2 Nurgling squads), as well as a Renegades & Heretics detachment (4 units of 2 Thud guns, a battery of 2 Earthshaker cannons, and a Medusa, as well as some Zombies and a Command Squad). He went first and shot up my markerlights pretty badly with all those barrage weapons, which gimped my response pretty badly as well. I was only able to kill a few dogs before the rest were on me. The Stormsurge managed to stomp one unit of dogs down, and actually I had a couple of other units actually win combat against them, but in the end I lost very badly, although it managed to be fun anyway. My third opponent played AdMech War Convocation, something I still have not figured out how to beat. I think I deployed very poorly and underestimated the range on some of the weapons, leading to a rough first turn. I spread out too much and as such was destroyed piecemeal. Oh well, lesson learned for next time. There was another Tau player at the tournament as well, but his list was very different from mine. He had a Heavy Retribution Cadre, a Ghostkeel wing, and a Drone Net. He won 2 of his games.
While there was very little I could have done in that second game (that list went 3-0 at the tournament and is likely going to be what that player runs at the ATC later this year), I feel like in the third game I should have done better. I deployed like a moron and paid dearly for it. I should have deployed more bunched up and rolled up one flank, picking off stuff on that side as I went. Unfortunately I ended up with a bunch of his units controlling the ruins in the center (we were using True Line of Sight and so I could not see through any solid walls, although they could be moved through as difficult terrain), namely some Infiltrators and Ruststalkers. Also, I'm not sure I should have been trying to use the Tau warlord traits, but should have used Strategic instead. Oh well, live and learn...
The strength of the Hunter Contingent lies within the use of the buffmander to spread buffs\abilities. If you are not using that then stay away from the Hunter contingent as it is in my view inferior to other lists because you need to spend points on stuff that doesn't contribute that amazingly.
If possible go then full buffmander hunter contingent with double stormsurges and Optimized stealth cadre as auxiliary. If not the go CAD with Double SS and Riptide Wing or Heavy Ret Cadre with Riptide Wing.
I'm thinking of putting a Riptide Wing or Optimized Stealth Cadre into my Necron army. Are these formations self-sufficient enough? How should one kit out the suits?
Requizen wrote: I'm thinking of putting a Riptide Wing or Optimized Stealth Cadre into my Necron army. Are these formations self-sufficient enough? How should one kit out the suits?
Gross. Yes, both formations are pretty plug and play ready for other armies. Not sure on the "ally" matrix of necron and Tau so keep that in mind.
I think the Riptide wing is more plug and play then the OSC. I say this because the OSC can provide benefits to the rest of your tau army through the stealth suit units (via markerlights, locator beacons, etc) and the riptide wing is fully self sufficient (obviously made better yet by other tau support troops)
I field my riptide wing as HBC, SMS, Interceptor, Counter Fire and find it to be extremely effective. However, you may find that the ap2 Ion Riptides complement your Necron force more so.
Common setup for the optimised stealth cadre is cyclic ion raker, tl fusion blaster and early warning override on the Ghostkeels, target locks if you have more then one ghostkeel.
I keep the stealth suits to a minimum 3 members in both squads. Seems to be the common consensus.
If you go for the full three Ghostkeels, you also get an additional +1 bs for that unit, making them bs5 effectively in the shooting phase. Not necessary, but a nice bonus.
Haven't used the Riptide Wing, but I imagine it is fairly plug and play as well.
OSC seems to be a little more survivable with all the grav and D in the game. Mass cover saves and forcing snap shots seems good. But the Wing seems to have better damage output.
Does anyone use a Homing Beacon in the OSC to perfectly drop the Ghostkeels?
Jancoran wrote: Necrons lack AP 2 so i definitely think they would benefit most from the Ion Accelerator Riptides. But those treally need Marker Drone support. So...
They don't need drones as if they shoot the same target they get +1 BS and Ion can be pie plates so no roll
in the wing if they are close they also reroll nova reactor rolls
raverrn wrote: Do you remember what missions you were playing for your games?
Some kind of modified ATC primer missions. I'll list them:
Mission 1:
Objective 1: King of the Hill: Score points each turn starting with turn 2 equal to the turn number at the beginning of your turn if you control a 12" radius circle around the center of the table (no points for contesting).
Objective 2: The Emperor's Will: Score points at the end of the game for controlling these two objectives. Each player put one in their deployment zone. Points = last completed game turn for own deployment zone, double that for opponent's deployment zone
Secondary Objectives: First Blood (2 VP), Overkill (2 VP for killing 3 or more enemy units in any single turn), Marked For Death (2 VP for killing an enemy unit chosen by you at the beginning of the game before deployment)
Mission 2:
Objective 1: Divide and Conquer: 2 objective points, one closer to you, one closer to your opponent. Gain 2 VP for controlling yours, 4 for opponent's, with half points for contesting, each turn. 12" radius circles from objectives for controlling.
Objective 2: Kill Points: 1 VP for each enemy unit destroyed
Secondary Objectives: Alpha Strike (2 VP for destroying a unit during the first game turn), Slay the Warlord (2 VP), Linebreaker (2 VP)
Mission 3:
Objective 1: Meat Grinder: 2 objectives in middle of table equally far from each player's deployment zone. Normal control radius. 2 VP per turn per objective controlled (none for contesting).
Objective 2: Crusade: 2 objectives in each player's deployment zone (4 total) near the table corners. 4 VP each for controlling yours, 8 VP each for controlling the enemy's.
Secondary Objectives: First Blood (2 VP), Overkill (as mission 1), Marked for Death (as mission 1)
In addition to the listed secondaries, players scored 1 VP for every 3 hull points/wounds taken from a superheavy/gargantuan creature.
We've done these missions, with very slight changes to the secondary objectives, for several months now and I always struggle with the third one.
I got handled by my buddy's wife's Decuricrons + KDK the other day. I was trying out a Taudar Cheese list and felt that I had little or no answer for her 3 GhostArcs. I think i still need to learn more about proper Marker deployment. Lots of LOS blocking on my table.
My list:
-Ethereal
-5× Strikers
-5× Strikers
-2× Surges EWO, Pulse Driver, 4++
- Drone Net 12 Markers and 4 Shield
-4x3 Scatbikes
-Warlock EJB
-2×5 Warpspiders (Marines Count as)
Its the cheesiest list I could come up with, and I couldnt dent her. Drones trickled in from resrves. Probably my biggest F-up. Can DMissiles be fired at a marked Target if out of LoS?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Deployment
Automatically Appended Next Post: This last pic with the scythe in my backfield is actually a heldrake. The thirster died to overwatch (bwahahaha) . Got seized on. Over all... I was unimpressed with my play.... or list?
I think the Eldar really gimped you. A Riptide Wing would have put out a similar amount of fire, but would have survived against the Heldrakes that presumably killed the bikes.
Also, if you're looking for a Ghost Ark counter, look no further than the Optimized Stealth Cadre.
Not looking to counter Arcs specifically, but it expised a significant weakness in the list. I mean what happens when I face 5 Knights?
The reason I chose the bikes was for Maelstrom Objectives as we play ITC pretty much exclusively. Riptides wouldve done well I think, but they wouldve meleed the arcs I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I have one ghostkeel and 3 stealsuits painted, but I think that with the current ITC meta they may be less good. Looking back at the last few pages though, it seems as if theyre favored on this thread?
Just wanted to include you guys in a little anecdotal scenario that happened to me last night in a tournament prep game; all three Riptides in my Riptide Wing failed their rerollable Nova Charge in my first turn... one of them continued to fail for the next three... in total, I think I failed 8 or 9 rerollable Nova charges that game. If it hadn't been for my Invisible sword and board Wraithknight 6'ing out my opponent's Renegade Knight Gallant's, I would not have won.
Also, I have one ghostkeel and 3 stealsuits painted, but I think that with the current ITC meta they may be less good. Looking back at the last few pages though, it seems as if theyre favored on this thread?
I've been running a ln OSC instead of the second Stormsurge in a few ITC events and I've been extremely satisfied with it. Really great against Knights and FMC.
. .
).
. Don't worry, it's an isolated incident. Really I think solo suits are better than spess muhreen suicide melta squad drop pods because they are so much cheaper. Only risk is its far easier to mishap.
However, I then shot that prince off the board (he kept rolling 2's on his Invulnerable Save, which meant no rerolls).
, although part of the point was to get the discussion in this thread back on the topic of Tau tactics rather than hurt feelings.
