Requizen wrote: Necron player here, thinking about adding in some Tau with the express purpose of getting Stormsurges (since Necrons don't really have a decent LoW option).
How are Stormsurges without Markerlight support? I was thinking of just putting in the Heavy Retribution Cadre alongside some Wraiths and stuff and calling it a day, but then I can't activate the D guns or get BS4.
If you want to run two stormsurges (not a bad idea) just grab a FSE CAD:
Commander with drone controller
A single crisis suit
A single crisis suit
A squad of marker drones (attach commander and profit)
A stormsurge (or two, if you prefer)
Very few tax units (and really, a 27 point obsec 3+ armor save 2 wound deep striking flamer unit really is not a tax)
If you prefer to make your drones a little more durable, you can add 36 points to be able to take strike squads instead. Gives you the option to take a 2+ armor on the commander (which also makes him T5). Very worth it IMO but if you can't afford 61 points (cost with the armor) then at least you have options.
Stormsurges without markerlights are not anything special. With markerlights, they are monsters. Whatever you do, don't take that awful formation. If you want two stormsurges (and why shouldn't you?) they really should be as a single unit. Do the hunter contingent or just a simple CAD (IMOCAD is better). Insert wraiths as counter-assault unit and profit
Is one unit of Drones really enough to support it? I feel awkward with it, like, putting in too many points and I'm now running Tau with Necron Allies (boo), put in too few and I have a useless GC (also boo).
How does the Riptide Wing work as a standalone next to Necrons? I can run that with a few Wraith units, they bring some pretty good shooting to go with the durability of Crons. Or do they want support too?
Riptide wing without ML will still do very well. It will be very durable (just like the rest of your Necrons lol), but outside of the one riptide hellfire round, the damage output won't be anything special without ML
Riptides dont need as much support as the StormSurge but they dont fill the same role, either. StormSurge really is your answer to super Heavy's et al. Nothing else really pays the bills like it does in that regard.
Riptides are excellent against everything else in the general sense and very durable so long as no one touches them (at which time they cry).
Riptides get away with LESS Markerlight support, but i feel they are a lot better with it.
Flamers did the trick against you like the Jancoran said. the free 200 pts. Where useless since you died immediately died. Also Taking two cads when HT,DBC would have been better also not the best choice, since obsec didnt matter in your mission. Missing out on Some Awesome formations rules.
Other questions: why does my mont'Ka show riptides and ghostkeel wing as formations but battlescribes doesn't find them as aux to get a valid dbc Did I miss something
luke1705 wrote: Do we have confirmation of whether this includes any different formations or clarification as to whether normal Riptides can take an ECPA?
If you by normal Riptides mean FSE Riptides then i believe there is some news regarding the ECPA as posted on ATT. In addition to FSE characters now being able to take both Tau Empire and FSE signature systems, it specifically points out that the ECPA can be used with Battlesuits and Nova Reactors.
Spoiler:
“Earth Caste Pilot Array....................XX points
Models with battlesuits only. The model re-rolls all rolls of 1 To Hit in the Shooting phase, and may re-roll the dice when using a Nova Reactor. However, their Weapon Skill is 1”
luke1705 wrote: Do we have confirmation of whether this includes any different formations or clarification as to whether normal Riptides can take an ECPA?
If you by normal Riptides mean FSE Riptides then i believe there is some news regarding the ECPA as posted on ATT. In addition to FSE characters now being able to take both Tau Empire and FSE signature systems, it specifically points out that the ECPA can be used with Battlesuits and Nova Reactors.
Spoiler:
“Earth Caste Pilot Array....................XX points
Models with battlesuits only. The model re-rolls all rolls of 1 To Hit in the Shooting phase, and may re-roll the dice when using a Nova Reactor. However, their Weapon Skill is 1”
The issue with the ECPA was basically that you couldn't take it on a riptide because although characters could take it, a riptide is not a character. Has something changed in that regard with FSE?
Also, some people have mentioned being able to take members of the 8 separate from the formation...are they just HQ now?
The issue with Riptides and sig systems has not changed, they still aren't characters. As to the Eight, you can now build 5 of the 8 as regular HQ choices (Farsight, O'Vesa, and Ob'Lotai being the exceptions).
So...you can't take FARSIGHT in a farsight enclaves detachment....unless you do the dawn blade? So weird that it's less restrictive to take farsight in a tau empire CAD. I think I'll just use a FSE detachment as outlined in the Mont'ka book. Not to take farsight, but to have cheaper troops. Then again, maybe it's better to have 5 bodies than 1 that can deep strike and be doubled out, even if it does have vastly better weapons options.
Theres a restriction saying he cant be taken in a FSE CAD? Thats...odd...
Not allowing ethereals or shadowsun was because of fluff reasons, the heck is the farsight reason? (i didnt get the ebook so of course no free update for me)
He's saying that because you can take from both relic lists, you can simply build commanders as those five characters.
Dissapointing really though: Being able to take a Broadside or Riptide named HQ would be more fun than simply commanders built with specific standard wargear.
Figured that people would want to know that there is a new ITC poll up for consideration, topics which include:
Cover for a GMC, ghostkeel holophoton activation and the piranha wing replacements. Even if you don't play using the ITC, it's nice to vote and help make it the best system that it can be for those of us who do. Let your voice be heard.
Ghostkeels are the only ITC "nerf" to tau i dont agree with. Its not even a fuzzy rule, just because it says "unit" once after saying "model" multiple times its suddenly all 3 at once? For no added benefit too.
The rest are justified. Piranha Wing is already denied via normal reserve rules from leaving the same turn anyway and USR sharing is ridiculously OP. It also renders the Dawn Blade pointless, since Buffmander lets you reroll to hits, ignore cover, tankhunter/monsterhunter, and apply DC to all drones in the entire army. That is infinitely more powerful than rerolling to hits and wounds alone.
Vineheart01 wrote: Ghostkeels are the only ITC "nerf" to tau i dont agree with. Its not even a fuzzy rule, just because it says "unit" once after saying "model" multiple times its suddenly all 3 at once? For no added benefit too.
The rest are justified. Piranha Wing is already denied via normal reserve rules from leaving the same turn anyway and USR sharing is ridiculously OP. It also renders the Dawn Blade pointless, since Buffmander lets you reroll to hits, ignore cover, tankhunter/monsterhunter, and apply DC to all drones in the entire army. That is infinitely more powerful than rerolling to hits and wounds alone.
Yeah all the other ones make sense IMO. Crossing my fingers pretty hard for the ghostkeels. Love the model and the rules, but if it's a one and done activation, that might keep my from bringing tau to a major event, as my local store already plays it as once per model (which just makes sense)
I dont get where Reece got the idea from anyway. Everyone reads it as once per model, even in YMDC it goes in the tau's favor in the end (after people hound on the singular use of "unit" for 8 pages or more of course).
i mean, hes making the game a lot more balanced for tournament play than RAW could ever be, but this still isnt a tournament game. Reece would have to do codex rewrites to actually balance this game (and redo walkers). A balance game doesnt mean every race has one super cheesy strat, it means every race can do many things...while not to the same degree of power it can still do something if played right.
Vineheart01 wrote: I dont get where Reece got the idea from anyway. Everyone reads it as once per model, even in YMDC it goes in the tau's favor in the end (after people hound on the singular use of "unit" for 8 pages or more of course).
i mean, hes making the game a lot more balanced for tournament play than RAW could ever be, but this still isnt a tournament game. Reece would have to do codex rewrites to actually balance this game (and redo walkers). A balance game doesnt mean every race has one super cheesy strat, it means every race can do many things...while not to the same degree of power it can still do something if played right.
I don't mean to sound snarky but the truth of the matter is that a subforum on one website is hardly a definitive answer on the topic. Where Reece got the idea is clearly from a number of people emailing him on how it will be played. I know this because I was one of those people - not asking for RAW, but How the ITC Will Play It
I think that there is a decent amount of consensus, but to say that there is no ambiguity is misleading. If there really is consensus then people will vote that way. If not, well I like the stormsurge enough to make it happen. Triple surge anyone?
The problem is they do not put the actual full rule in the vote. People who have never actually seen the full quoted rule are going to simply see 2 options: Nerf tau or not. And we sadly know how that will go.
Yeah. Didnt like how they biased the vote...again...sigh.
No context, no pro and con arguments. give the best pro and best con argument 100 words to make their case alongside the rules text and then see what people say.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: I dont get where Reece got the idea from anyway. Everyone reads it as once per model, even in YMDC it goes in the tau's favor in the end (after people hound on the singular use of "unit" for 8 pages or more of course).
i mean, hes making the game a lot more balanced for tournament play than RAW could ever be, but this still isnt a tournament game. Reece would have to do codex rewrites to actually balance this game (and redo walkers). A balance game doesnt mean every race has one super cheesy strat, it means every race can do many things...while not to the same degree of power it can still do something if played right.
His biased questions do the rewrtiing for him. People dump RAW in a heart beat if they dot like something and it becomes so easy... I'd warn anybody against voting anything but RAW except in the most bitterly game breaking situations. INvis needed a nerf. Its just too much. a huge majority of players agree. But taking cover saves away from Gargants? i mean a 5+ save and its totally legal to take... I dont like that. And I speak as one who hadn;t used the gargants available to me until the last month or two. it never bothered me enough to just go singling them out for special hate. Seems dumb to me.
Some people do take issue to a wraithknight standing on top of "rubble" and gaining a 4+ cover save, whereas a dreadnought standing on the same rubble would not.
A decent amount of terrain at the ITC events is 4+ (around 50% IIRC) and there are usually at least 2 4+ area terrain pieces on any board. So the toe in cover for a 4+ (3+ with night fight or 2+ with shrouded) is a very real thing (except for Tau on the shrouding). I can see people feeling that that is a bit nonsensical. I voted to stick to RAW but I think it's going to change. I also have a feeling that the points are going to go down to 1650 but we'll see. I understand why for large format events but I hope not. I like 1850 a lot.
A vehicle being affected by the 'Abadonded' rule, forms two separate units correct? Surely by RAW both of those units have the same rules and (possibly?) a piranha immobilised left within 6" could leave into ongoing reserves? The less dogdey aspect is the remaining pirhanas will be able to enter ongoing reserves and re-enter a full strength. Full strength would be, reasonably, the full compliment of models.
My point being.. RAW is often not helpful, especially when there are really 'reasonable/obvious' readings of the rule. An even better/more concise point is the GMC + cover. Raw they can toe in cover. In relaity, maddness.
I can appreciate an argument for MC being able to be fluid/dynamic to make use of cover.. but I still feel the game would simply be better if that RAI also applied to MC too! (but it needs to go full circle, with GW having this RAI or FAQ'ed rule (sorry.. sigh) in mind when they design MC/GMC).
im fine with MCs getting area cover, not all of them are as huge as a Riptide. GMCs really shouldnt though...every GMC towers over everything. Wk/Stormsurges are as tall as the standard ruined multi-leveled building GW puts out, if theyre behind it sure but if theyre sitting on a platform at the base infront of it they still get it...how? Smaller units could argue they darted inside, how does a GMC dart into cover when hes towering over it?
GMCs dont really need any help, and granting toe-in-rocks 4+ cover is one hell of a bonus that supervehicles dont get when they already survive longer due to no Explode! bonus damage. RAW theres no debate, but logically it makes no sense.
Admittedly i think non-super vehicles should be granted area cover too. Vehicles need a bone, the few that are good either sit so far back they never get in danger or can jink or have an invul, so granting area cover wouldnt make the already good vehicles infinitely better while making the craptastic vehicles do something (mainly thinking walkers)
luke1705 wrote: Some people do take issue to a wraithknight standing on top of "rubble" and gaining a 4+ cover save, whereas a dreadnought standing on the same rubble would not.
A decent amount of terrain at the ITC events is 4+ (around 50% IIRC) and there are usually at least 2 4+ area terrain pieces on any board. So the toe in cover for a 4+ (3+ with night fight or 2+ with shrouded) is a very real thing (except for Tau on the shrouding). I can see people feeling that that is a bit nonsensical. I voted to stick to RAW but I think it's going to change. I also have a feeling that the points are going to go down to 1650 but we'll see. I understand why for large format events but I hope not. I like 1850 a lot.
Its the rules, and they are abstract to allow us to model terrain the way we want to.
I am not going to support changing obviously RAW rules just so people can make their opponents easier to beat. If it doesn't have a significant impact, then I just don't see doing it. A unit of 20 Dark Eldar can get the ame cover saves despite being an enormous 20 man unit. No one is advocating taking it away if they ball up and become such an onvious target that the trees COULDNT hide them.
I mean if I want to sit here and attack the internal logic of what I am seeing on the board at every turn, I can. We have to accept some abstraction and stop trying to be the GW police. Unless its having an enormous impact that is any more unfair than 20 dark eldar hiding behind one tree, lets step away from our "oh goody, I get to nerf my opponent again" button.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote: A vehicle being affected by the 'Abadonded' rule, forms two separate units correct? Surely by RAW both of those units have the same rules and (possibly?) a piranha immobilised left within 6" could leave into ongoing reserves?
Yes. The single IMMOBILZED Piranha could go into ongoing reserve but then could not return because it cant move. if it cannot enter it is destroyed. But sure.
he meant the unit that the immobilized piranha belonged to couldnt regain the lost piranha because it technically didnt die.
I could see it both ways, but im more inclined to it doesnt come back for balance sake. Thats an extra target in its entirety not just a repair job/replacement model. Not like its going to happen much anyway since piranhas abusing the Rearm and Repair are not going to be further than ~10" from their board edge so odds are they wont get shot at unless its something that obliterates them.
Look its two issues: DO destroyed ones come back? No of course not. So if they DONT come back then an immobilized one is irrelevant. the rules already handle what to do there.
So Just make sure you vote NOT to have Piranhas come back. This is clearly not what they mean by full strength, and the sentence on full strength goes on to explain armaments and dones are whats meant). the name of the rule should tell you!
Anywho. a lot of to do about nothing. im a Tau player. Im saying they shouldnt come back with dead piranhas. i am saying the separated piranhas are just that: units of their respective size, same rules apply.
Jancoran wrote: Look its two issues: DO destroyed ones come back? No of course not. So if they DONT come back then an immobilized one is irrelevant. the rules already handle what to do there.
So Just make sure you vote NOT to have Piranhas come back. This is clearly not what they mean by full strength, and the sentence on full strength goes on to explain armaments and dones are whats meant). the name of the rule should tell you!
Anywho. a lot of to do about nothing. im a Tau player. Im saying they shouldnt come back with dead piranhas. i am saying the separated piranhas are just that: units of their respective size, same rules apply.
Destroyed Piranha come back, just like any other lost model is renewed when a unit returns at full strength. The problem that people can't seem to reconcile is that when an immobilized vehicle is left behind by a squadron, it and the squadron form separate units. The question becomes, if the shortened unit rearms and returns, is it at "full strength", as in all models replaced including the immobilized one that was separated. Logically, no, the unit should not return at full strength because the new unit has one less model. Per RAW, yes, the unit should return at full strength because the immobilized model is a lose. Thematically, the returning unit is not necessarily the same unit that left, even if the returning models are the same. A good compromise could be only the Piranha that leave the table can return, while another good compromise could be that if appropriate models are available that unit can return with replacement models at full strength. The first compromise acts as a balancing factor that takes into consideration that the unit's strength is redefined once the immobilized model leaves the unit. The second compromise acts as a literal interpretation of the rule as written, as it is the exact same limit that exists with the Gun Drones regardless of how else the rule is interpreted.
The ITC question does not address these factors, lending to a vote based on "Yes, I understand the mechanic in question so voted Yes" and "No, I do not understand the mechanic in question so voted No". A better way to approach this issue should have been posting the issue and two potential resolutions, then requesting the vote for option 1, option 2, or neither.
I'm saying that what stops the immbolised Pirhana from entering on-going reserves. From the formations rules - zero.
I'm not sure if the rules specifically forbid deployment from reserves (can a Piranha deep strike?) if a vehicle is immobilised. My point is.. that would be bonkers, plus the two separate units of Piranhas drawn from the Fire stream formation would.. well, make use of the 're-arm & re-fuel' rule. Pure RAW? Complete bonkers.
Even if you ignore the immobilised Piranha's, the original unit coming back into play using 're-arm & re-fuel' would get the lost models back. There is no provision in the rule to consider anything outside of the unit itself (& it's "full strength").
So RAW is just plain bad (edit: Can be, especially with subsequent and/or complicated rules). As with GMC getting cover. A rubble strewn house could easily hide a squad of 20men, the various obstacles and debris can all be used. However a GMC that is.. what, 4x the size of the entire house. Bonkers. Okay better yet, a collection of fox holes. Guys can hide it each one.. a GMC may have trouble fitting the smallest part of its body into one. Pure maddness. We play a game, that game is grounded in structure and logic (you roll to hit, wound, saves. Big things have more wounds than smaller things.. etc).
After last night's Frontline stream with Necrons/Tau, I've started to think that allying in Suits might not be a bad idea. Like Destroyers, but trade MTC/Reanimation for different guns and a lower cost, and potentially ObSec if taken in a FSE detachment.
What's a good, relatively cheap way to take some Suits into a Necron detachment? What guns are good and will compliment a list with Wraiths?
Now that FSE detachments can take Empire signature systems, you can get a buffmander (relatively expensive though) and a crisis suit unit in as an allied detachment. The unit of suits can be scaled to whatever level you are looking for and will run well enough without markerlight support due to the buffmander.
I like such a unit with missile pods and target locks, for some efficient long range fire. Essentially like mobile broadsides with the buffmander who tanks for the unit.
I know Necrons lack AP2, but tbh, Tau struggle in that department as well, unless you want to go Riptides, which require marker support and it gets expensive fast.
I think crisis suits niche these days is either with a buffmander as above or MSU, where the cyclic ion blaster or Frag projector offer something different.
Well, a normally kitted Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, 4++) and the base Destroyer Cult is 515 for 9 Destroyers (2 S5 AP3 shots with Shred/Tank Hunters each) and the IC. While I love my Destroyer Cult immensely, firstly it can't hurt a Void Shield and secondly I just kind of wanted to see what I could get for a similar price or cheaper by grabbing Tau instead.
Missiles seem pretty good, high Strength and volume of fire sorta makes up for the AP3. I don't know all the weapon options, though.
I know a guy who uses his Commander + unit of Suits + mass amount of Gun Drones to DS down and just blast out the stupidest amount of shots I've ever seen, to quite some effect. I was thinking maybe if I did a FSE Allied detachment for just that it could be a nice pseudo-shooting-star that compliments Wraiths and Bikes quite effectively.
Grizzyzz wrote: I am just excited to run a t5 fusionblade commander around the table ignorant of everything but S10 and D weapons =D
When did this happen? Where can I find the rules that allow me to do this?
Also guys their is a new ITC poll that you guys should vote on as we all know that Tau players receive irrational fear because of our gun line style army that some players have a hard time beating. Also could you guys copy and paste the questions listed below to
because they say this is how they determine what is asked on the poll so hopefully if enough of us ask the exact same question there will be no excuse.
1) Can a Riptide other than O'Vesa take the Earth Caste Pilot Array Signature system. RAW this is not allowed, however I believe there was discussion of giving them an allowance (or voting to do so) since it seemed an oversight by GW.
2) Piranha's from the Firestream Wing, by RAW they can leave in the same turn they enter. There was a FAQ entry added without vote prior to the LVO restricting this, could we get a vote on this?
3) Coordinated Firepower Ruling - Revote Request. This issue was voted prior to much playtesting/seeing how impactful it was and I was hoping it would be revoted at a later date as stated it might be. For what it's worth, I'd like to see the middle ground ruling occur, which is more or less: only shots fired at the target of the coordinated firepower attack receive the associated buffs, but buffs do transfer.
arthorn wrote: Grizzyzz you are back! but yes it's in the new supplement and it is alright released if you had the previous you can get an update for free
Ha yea.. switched jobs and then went on vacation so have not been involved in anything warhammer in over a month... *withdrawal*
Automatically Appended Next Post: So a while ago there was chit chat of a new Imperial Armor book for Tau coming along. Is this still hearsay or is there more details on this release?
Good to have you back Well nothing new just collection of montka in a book and allowing us to use Sig systems of te. So t-5 fusion with a buffvre (1400 red cadre)
They stilted that Ghostkeel question so badly that any response they get on that will be suspect at best. Good lord. Its the worst and most unfairly asked question they have ever used. Expect to be robbed unless a lot of people really read the rule, ignore the way they put the question (AND the answer is stilted too!) and vote understanding what it really is. But I think a lot of people will just hit the link and run through the questions real fast.
we'll see. But I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Luckily we can ignore the ITC rulings we don't like if the TO is willing so I'll just have to bring my persuasive A game if the ITC gets its way.
Jancoran wrote: They stilted that Ghostkeel question so badly that any response they get on that will be suspect at best. Good lord. Its the worst and most unfairly asked question they have ever used. Expect to be robbed unless a lot of people really read the rule, ignore the way they put the question (AND the answer is stilted too!) and vote understanding what it really is. But I think a lot of people will just hit the link and run through the questions real fast.
we'll see. But I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Luckily we can ignore the ITC rulings we don't like if the TO is willing so I'll just have to bring my persuasive A game if the ITC gets its way.
Exactly. ITC votes are complete BS on simply how the question is written. They basically wrote the ghost keel vote as "It is ambiguous, do you want to nerf Tau or not?" which is just simply not true.
They did THREE things. First they assumed it was ambiguouis in their question when the reality is that the question is whether it is in the first place. Second thing they did was not make clear to people that this is an effect on the enemy unit, not actually the ghostkeels and finally they wrote the answers in a way that makes it sound bad they they "get" to do it three times" instead of just asking of the voter wants to allow the Ghostkeel to function as RAW, or being clear in saying that the SECOND and THIRD ghostkeel would actually be STRIPPED of their wargear!
I dunno man. Its worse than the detachment question they asked a long time ago where they basically forced people to vote one way because the alternative vote didn't make sense.
Vote and nuke this stupid ruling. If we cant stop them from rolling out this kind of question we can vote and show our displeasure in the way that matters.
Ranting on this forum about it gets me nowhere. Voting might.
Jancoran wrote: They did THREE things. First they assumed it was ambiguouis in their question when the reality is that the question is whether it is in the first place. Second thing they did was not make clear to people that this is an effect on the enemy unit, not actually the ghostkeels and finally they wrote the answers in a way that makes it sound bad they they "get" to do it three times" instead of just asking of the voter wants to allow the Ghostkeel to function as RAW, or being clear in saying that the SECOND and THIRD ghostkeel would actually be STRIPPED of their wargear!
I dunno man. Its worse than the detachment question they asked a long time ago where they basically forced people to vote one way because the alternative vote didn't make sense.
Vote and nuke this stupid ruling. If we cant stop them from rolling out this kind of question we can vote and show our displeasure in the way that matters.
Ranting on this forum about it gets me nowhere. Voting might.
I agree but unfortunately as so many have stated in another thread, they don't even care what the rule is or isn't they simply vote to nerf because they don't like the army or they don't like people who play that army. =(
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I think we are all a bunch of stand up chaps!
Jancoran wrote: They stilted that Ghostkeel question so badly that any response they get on that will be suspect at best. Good lord. Its the worst and most unfairly asked question they have ever used. Expect to be robbed unless a lot of people really read the rule, ignore the way they put the question (AND the answer is stilted too!) and vote understanding what it really is. But I think a lot of people will just hit the link and run through the questions real fast.
we'll see. But I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Luckily we can ignore the ITC rulings we don't like if the TO is willing so I'll just have to bring my persuasive A game if the ITC gets its way.
Exactly. ITC votes are complete BS on simply how the question is written. They basically wrote the ghost keel vote as "It is ambiguous, do you want to nerf Tau or not?" which is just simply not true.
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? Just because you read it one way does not mean that the rest of the world does. And if there are other people in the world who read it differently than you do, that is what ambiguity is.
As the proud owner of 6 ghostkeels, yeah I definitely hope that the vote doesn't turn into a knee jerk "nerf tau". Especially because I agree that it reads to me that the effect works once per model. But again, that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees.
They made the question a fair one - which way does it work? You guys are mad because they didn't present it as "this is the rule, do you want to play it this way or not?" But that is bias in the opposite direction and if they really believed that, it wouldn't be up for a vote.
Jancoran wrote: They stilted that Ghostkeel question so badly that any response they get on that will be suspect at best. Good lord. Its the worst and most unfairly asked question they have ever used. Expect to be robbed unless a lot of people really read the rule, ignore the way they put the question (AND the answer is stilted too!) and vote understanding what it really is. But I think a lot of people will just hit the link and run through the questions real fast.
we'll see. But I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Luckily we can ignore the ITC rulings we don't like if the TO is willing so I'll just have to bring my persuasive A game if the ITC gets its way.
Exactly. ITC votes are complete BS on simply how the question is written. They basically wrote the ghost keel vote as "It is ambiguous, do you want to nerf Tau or not?" which is just simply not true.
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? Just because you read it one way does not mean that the rest of the world does. And if there are other people in the world who read it differently than you do, that is what ambiguity is.
As the proud owner of 6 ghostkeels, yeah I definitely hope that the vote doesn't turn into a knee jerk "nerf tau". Especially because I agree that it reads to me that the effect works once per model. But again, that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees.
They made the question a fair one - which way does it work? You guys are mad because they didn't present it as "this is the rule, do you want to play it this way or not?" But that is bias in the opposite direction and if they really believed that, it wouldn't be up for a vote.
You have to understand 90% of the people voting do not play Tau and a large portion probably have never seen the actual quoted rule before. They take this poll and on that question all they see is "nerf tau or Do not nerf Tau"
Jancoran wrote: They stilted that Ghostkeel question so badly that any response they get on that will be suspect at best. Good lord. Its the worst and most unfairly asked question they have ever used. Expect to be robbed unless a lot of people really read the rule, ignore the way they put the question (AND the answer is stilted too!) and vote understanding what it really is. But I think a lot of people will just hit the link and run through the questions real fast.
we'll see. But I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Luckily we can ignore the ITC rulings we don't like if the TO is willing so I'll just have to bring my persuasive A game if the ITC gets its way.
Exactly. ITC votes are complete BS on simply how the question is written. They basically wrote the ghost keel vote as "It is ambiguous, do you want to nerf Tau or not?" which is just simply not true.
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? Just because you read it one way does not mean that the rest of the world does. And if there are other people in the world who read it differently than you do, that is what ambiguity is.
As the proud owner of 6 ghostkeels, yeah I definitely hope that the vote doesn't turn into a knee jerk "nerf tau". Especially because I agree that it reads to me that the effect works once per model. But again, that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees.
They made the question a fair one - which way does it work? You guys are mad because they didn't present it as "this is the rule, do you want to play it this way or not?" But that is bias in the opposite direction and if they really believed that, it wouldn't be up for a vote.
You have to understand 90% of the people voting do not play Tau and a large portion probably have never seen the actual quoted rule before. They take this poll and on that question all they see is "nerf tau or Do not nerf Tau"
You have to understand that your pessimistic view of the world does not mean that everyone in the world is like that. In 5 seconds, I googled "ghost keel rules' and found:
Where the holophoton countermeasures rule is laid out. Should it have been in the poll in the first place? Sure. But did they list out the rules for each and every one of the contentious questions? No. This was clearly a time consideration, as reading and attempting to interpret murky rules would have taken significantly longer to complete the poll.
Anyone who wants to be honest about trying to figure out how the rule works can do so for free and with literally next to no effort. Some people do in fact do that. And not everyone votes with an agenda in mind. Even before I owned a single Eldar model (and with no plans to do so) I voted to give them all of the scatter lasers because that is what the rules said they were entitled to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CKO wrote: EMAIL THEM OR ASK QUESTIONS ON THAT THING I POSTED EARLIER!
I put it in all caps because I want to play tau but this tau hate is unreal and I rather not play an army that receives unfair nerfs.
I am sorry guys its been fun but in the words of Lebron James, "Im taking my talents to Necrons".
That sucks so bad because I love the models and the fluff but I have to play another army because the competitive scene is dominated by ITC rulings.
CKO, look man if you want to go play Necrons because you think they give you the best chance to win, go for it (although that is not supported by ITC results - Tau on average did better than the Necrons at the highest level, even with the nerfs).
But if you actually enjoy playing Tau, just do it. The ITC rulings literally don't change a single thing about how you do business on the daily. Even if your gaming club uses all of them religiously, you can still field an awesome army, and Tau have a number of builds with a ton of great formations. Play them how you want to, and if you learn how to use your army well, you will be just fine. Will you win every game against a top tier tournament list? No. But will you be at an inherent disadvantage? Also no. Tau can hang just fine with the big boys (assuming you don't run into a hard counter list). Your only real limitation is how good of a general you are.
If you take a look at the top tournament rankings, there is one commonality - the players. If all of the best players decided to play a specific army, we would see Tyranids dominate the top tables. Not because they are such a great army, but because the players are just that good. (See Sean Nayden in like 3 GTs for proof) And it's not like they're freaking Michael Jordan and you can't do it - they're just practiced, don't make mistakes and play the numbers game well. They also have good lists that have good synergy but the point is that you could be any one of them with whatever army you want as long as you work for it. And if you're not willing to put in the work, it doesn't matter what army you play - the results will be the same. That is to say, less than your hopes.
Jancoran wrote: They stilted that Ghostkeel question so badly that any response they get on that will be suspect at best. Good lord. Its the worst and most unfairly asked question they have ever used. Expect to be robbed unless a lot of people really read the rule, ignore the way they put the question (AND the answer is stilted too!) and vote understanding what it really is. But I think a lot of people will just hit the link and run through the questions real fast.
we'll see. But I'm not holding my breathe on that one. Luckily we can ignore the ITC rulings we don't like if the TO is willing so I'll just have to bring my persuasive A game if the ITC gets its way.
Exactly. ITC votes are complete BS on simply how the question is written. They basically wrote the ghost keel vote as "It is ambiguous, do you want to nerf Tau or not?" which is just simply not true.
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? Just because you read it one way does not mean that the rest of the world does. And if there are other people in the world who read it differently than you do, that is what ambiguity is.
As the proud owner of 6 ghostkeels, yeah I definitely hope that the vote doesn't turn into a knee jerk "nerf tau". Especially because I agree that it reads to me that the effect works once per model. But again, that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees.
They made the question a fair one - which way does it work? You guys are mad because they didn't present it as "this is the rule, do you want to play it this way or not?" But that is bias in the opposite direction and if they really believed that, it wouldn't be up for a vote.
You have to understand 90% of the people voting do not play Tau and a large portion probably have never seen the actual quoted rule before. They take this poll and on that question all they see is "nerf tau or Do not nerf Tau"
You have to understand that your pessimistic view of the world does not mean that everyone in the world is like that. In 5 seconds, I googled "ghost keel rules' and found:
Where the holophoton countermeasures rule is laid out. Should it have been in the poll in the first place? Sure. But did they list out the rules for each and every one of the contentious questions? No. This was clearly a time consideration, as reading and attempting to interpret murky rules would have taken significantly longer to complete the poll.
Anyone who wants to be honest about trying to figure out how the rule works can do so for free and with literally next to no effort. Some people do in fact do that. And not everyone votes with an agenda in mind. Even before I owned a single Eldar model (and with no plans to do so) I voted to give them all of the scatter lasers because that is what the rules said they were entitled to.
And I think you have a naive view. Tau is played by about 8% of the game. That leaves 92% of players who do not play. Assuming maybe 75% of Tau players vote for the buff, you cannot possible tell me that less than 6% of players will vote selfishly/because they hate Tau. A minority army like Tau have no chance at all in polls.
And I think you have a naive view. Tau is played by about 8% of the game. That leaves 92% of players who do not play. Assuming maybe 75% of Tau players vote for the buff, you cannot possible tell me that less than 6% of players will vote selfishly/because they hate Tau. A minority army like Tau have no chance at all in polls.
That presumes that the rest of the population is at a 50/50 split, which I do not believe to be the case. People who vote in the ITC poll have a vested interest in the tournament circuit (how active they are varies) but chances of them having seen the Tau Ghostkeel release (which came with free rules published by GW online btw) or having played against or seen a battle report with a Ghostkeel are actually rather high. So they should know at least how people tend to play it, or how the rule is stated. I believe that is true for the vast majority of the players who voted. And truth be told, I know that there was a battle report of a Tau guy who played it conservatively on a FLG stream once, but I've never seen anyone play it as once per unit except for that. Have you?
Furthermore, many people have more than one army. So although not everyone plays Tau at any one event, they have been a popular army for some time. So I would bet that a lot closer to 20 percent of the player base does or has at some point played Tau (speculative of course but the point is it's definitely higher than their showing at any one event)
Point being, I think the standard is that it's played as once per Ghostkeel. If that's the case, people should tend to vote for that interpretation (especially since that does seem to be supported by RAW by my reading of the rule). So could the vote be swayed by dishonest people who vote in self-interest? It definitely could be and TBH I'm a little nervous about that (6 Ghostkeels remember). But I think that overall what I believe to be the correct interpretation will win out. We'll see what happens in less than 48 hours.
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? .
Not only do I know what the word ambiguity is, i also know what the word context is. Ironically, "confusion" over the rule only exists outside of context here.
And I think you have a naive view. Tau is played by about 8% of the game. That leaves 92% of players who do not play. Assuming maybe 75% of Tau players vote for the buff, you cannot possible tell me that less than 6% of players will vote selfishly/because they hate Tau. A minority army like Tau have no chance at all in polls.
Indeed. And with the way they worded it? Lol. It's hilarious. i am PRAYING that enough threads out there made people curious as to the ACTUAL wording of the rule.
If enough non-Tau players read the rule and don't want their own army nerf'd for similarly spurious reasons, they will think twice about it.
GW, deliver us from the hands of our enemies. But while we wait for that deliverance, we must get people to read this rule so they understand what they are even voting on. The power level of this gear isn't the issue sicne powers ten times this are allowed to run rampant. The issue is the fairness here: completely lacking.
people want the Tau to be doormats. Like they were forever before. Sad.
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? .
Not only do I know what the word ambiguity is, i also know what the word context is. Ironically, "confusion" over the rule only exists outside of context here.
Clearly, though, websters needs to change the definition of "doormat" to mean "not the very best army"
Humor me though. How would you have preferred that they worded the question (outside of having the actual rule listed, which I think we can all agree would have been helpful)? I'd like to hear an actual quote of "a good way of wording it would be...."
You do realize what the definition of ambiguity is, right? .
Not only do I know what the word ambiguity is, i also know what the word context is. Ironically, "confusion" over the rule only exists outside of context here.
Clearly, though, websters needs to change the definition of "doormat" to mean "not the very best army"
Humor me though. How would you have preferred that they worded the question (outside of having the actual rule listed, which I think we can all agree would have been helpful)? I'd like to hear an actual quote of "a good way of wording it would be...."
Copy and paste the rule.
Than ask do you believe a unit containing multiple models get to use this special rule multiple times?
i'd rather play ITC than RAW if were talking tournament play. It does silence a good chunk of the insane cheese out there, but it doesnt do enough to make me want to do tournaments because the insane cheesy lists still exist and make the game unfun for me. Least in casual games we can have a bit of self-sense of hindrance so we arent a total dick to each other.
cant have a gay old time when someone just gets utterly flattened by turn 3.
And i agree the presentation was whack. Unless you own the codex or play against it a lot you probably dont know the wording of any codex-specific rules outside the most iconic ones (markerlights...?)
Each Ghostkeel can fire it's countermeasure once per game. Should a unit with more than one Ghostkel be disallowed from using its second and third Countermeasure?
they decide though and that is the part that I am trying to get people to acknowledge.
Not as such. I dont like what the ITC did here, but stronger TO's can decide to take or leave the parts they disagree with and still be an ITC event. So I guess my big time encouragement to TO's is to do just that. Use the ITC as a baseline, because from that perspective it's not bad. then modify the few things that make no sense, like this silly ghostkeel thing or the Canptek Spydeer rule they rewrote or any other one you find no virtue in.
I apologize after thinking about it, I will not turn into a necron I am going to play Tau with the ITC hate and I am going to still dominate forget the ITC!
Each Ghostkeel can fire it's countermeasure once per game. Should a unit with more than one Ghostkel be disallowed from using its second and third Countermeasure?
Heavily biased wording there. Having seen the vote and voted for what I think is the obvious interpretation (each model uses seperately), their wording was absolutely fine.
Each Ghostkeel can fire it's countermeasure once per game. Should a unit with more than one Ghostkel be disallowed from using its second and third Countermeasure?
Ahh that is definitely a much more biased question. I mean it is terrible. Its a negative stacked questions - should something be disallowed from doing something, well no, of course not.. etc etc.
Instead the ITC poll question asks a direct neutral question. It provides context. It does indeed make reference to the 10th word and 38th word (of the Holophoton Countermeasures rule), which I feel is the basis for the obvious ambiguity.
TLDR I feel it is a decently written poll. I also feel that, regardless of the content of a poll, players who vote do so to balance the rules. The bleeding heart idea that the other 92% of players who do not play Tau who vote are.. anti-tau or unqualified is silly. I do know how reanimation protocols work and have never owned a necron army/model. Likewise I know how a Ork (oruk?!) tracktor cannon works.. etc.
So a while ago there was chit chat of a new Imperial Armor book for Tau coming along. Is this still hearsay or is there more details on this release?
Yes there will be a new FW book coming out sometime this year according to rumor. It will take the Experimental Rules off of both the R'Varna and Y'Vahra Riptide Variants and have the rules for the Supremacy Armor. I also really hope everything in there gets a points reduction, especially in regards to the Hazard Suits and TX-42 Piranhas.
TLDR I feel it is a decently written poll. I also feel that, regardless of the content of a poll, players who vote do so to balance the rules. The bleeding heart idea that the other 92% of players who do not play Tau who vote are.. anti-tau or unqualified is silly. I do know how reanimation protocols work and have never owned a necron army/model. Likewise I know how a Ork (oruk?!) tracktor cannon works.. etc.
The amount of 'feth tau' posts on the other topics kinda says the opposite.
I get that tau gets often played by castling at the gameclub level, but like just like against dwarves in whfb that's no reason to go into a nerdrage.
I chalk it up to immaturity and people throwing a temper tantrum instead of enjoying a challenge or thinking constructively in finding ways to beat it.
I know this is probably been asked farther back in the thread but I don't really have the time to go through every single post but I am having some issue as to how to best construct Stealth Suit Squads. I am planning on only taking two squads so I can run the Optimized Stealth Cadre but I have a few questions about them as I've never run them before:
-How big a squad? I've seen lots of recommendations in regards to this but what do you feel is the best number to run them at and why?
-Equipment on them, also quite varied from what I have seen primarily I'm just wondering if it's worth it to even give them a fusion blaster or homing beacon or anything outside of that?
gmaleron wrote: I chalk it up to immaturity and people throwing a temper tantrum instead of enjoying a challenge or thinking constructively in finding ways to beat it.
I know this is probably been asked farther back in the thread but I don't really have the time to go through every single post but I am having some issue as to how to best construct Stealth Suit Squads. I am planning on only taking two squads so I can run the Optimized Stealth Cadre but I have a few questions about them as I've never run them before:
-How big a squad? I've seen lots of recommendations in regards to this but what do you feel is the best number to run them at and why?
-Equipment on them, also quite varied from what I have seen primarily I'm just wondering if it's worth it to even give them a fusion blaster or homing beacon or anything outside of that?
Appreciate the help guys!
Best squad size is a size of zero.
Only sort of kidding. It totally depends on your local meta. If you tend to play more competively with your friends, then the OSC is actually not that great. The tax for the stealth suits is too high for what you gain, even if it seems like you gain a lot.
Otherwise.. when I run an OSC with a Retaliation Cadre in more casual settings, I usually pay 110 points for a squad of three with a 'vre and homing beacon. These guys are literally a means to not scatter my reserves and really don't do anything first and second turn (aside from jumping out of LOS). The burst cannons keep them cheap, and let me pick on infantry, but really the platform is not geared to be as good at offense as a crisis suit.
I concur. My use of Stealth suits is the exact same thing, 3 suits, 1 is a 'vre with homing beacon, taken in a OSC so my Ret Cadre doesn't scatter on turn 2. Personally, I don't consider them a tax since they are foing exactly what I want them to do, and would normally not be able to do in an all suit army.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I concur. My use of Stealth suits is the exact same thing, 3 suits, 1 is a 'vre with homing beacon, taken in a OSC so my Ret Cadre doesn't scatter on turn 2. Personally, I don't consider them a tax since they are foing exactly what I want them to do, and would normally not be able to do in an all suit army.
SJ
That's fair, I should elaborate on what i mean by "tax".
First.. if you are using 1 ghostkeel model. In this case your bringing at a minimum 180 points of models to give nearly what 3 markerlights can do for the ghostkeel (which come much cheaper). Again, as an offensive platform there are better options then the stealthsuit.. even at defense, there are better options (given the range of weapons) to hold back objectives. Heck even kroot if you really want that outflank.
If you take a full squad of 3 ghostkeel, then I think the 180 points is fine, atleast for me.. cause you have one dynamite wrecking ball that is both hard to take down and highly offensive (bs5 etc etc).
Idk.. i feel like i am rambling... =P
My main point i guess is my stealth suits never make more than their worth over time, they are always meh or ok in game. In terms of how myself and jeffersonian play, they do exactly what we need.. deliver our main force safely.
Solo ghostkeel does feel like a waste to me. 6 S7 and a Melta shot hitting rear armor still does a lot of damage to vehicles but its also about all its going to do. Adding the other 2 ghostkeels in there gives you a gakton of shots to hurt pretty much everything, bypass lack of Skyfire if you didnt want the 20pt upgrade, and enables them to be pretty deadly in melee assuming your enemy isnt WS5+ or has AP3+ attacks at initiative. Ive charged my 3 ghostkeels into a termie squad several times and cleaned house because i wound on 2s pen their armor and attack first. With 12 of those on the charge hitting on 4s, pretty likely to take out a deepsriking termie blob with that before they get to strike back at all.
The formation would be an auto include for me if they got three uses of the counter - measure. Lets face it we have the ability to destroy atleast 1-3 units at a time if we destroy those units than all is left is 1-3 units counter measure is a defense mechanism that potentially ruins any hopes of retaliation.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I concur. My use of Stealth suits is the exact same thing, 3 suits, 1 is a 'vre with homing beacon, taken in a OSC so my Ret Cadre doesn't scatter on turn 2. Personally, I don't consider them a tax since they are foing exactly what I want them to do, and would normally not be able to do in an all suit army.
SJ
That's fair, I should elaborate on what i mean by "tax".
First.. if you are using 1 ghostkeel model. In this case your bringing at a minimum 180 points of models to give nearly what 3 markerlights can do for the ghostkeel (which come much cheaper). Again, as an offensive platform there are better options then the stealthsuit.. even at defense, there are better options (given the range of weapons) to hold back objectives. Heck even kroot if you really want that outflank.
I can't quite agree. Even on one ghost the "tax" isn't high.
Even ignoring the rear shot ability (as it only applies to some targets), the 3 marker effect would normally be paid around 66 (pathfinders) to 84 (network drones) points. If you would take a ghost anyway (and it's not a bad unit at all) Its almost like discounted stealth suits. And a stealth suit costing effectivly around 16 to 20 each. I'd say it's good. Even ignoring the fact they can feed off formation bonuses too,and counting the markers they would eat for the bonus means it's almost as if they are free.
It's enough to make them good, when taken in small numbers. (as the more members you got, the less relevant the "discount" becomes)
ive ran the ghostwing once and its the one time my ghostkeel trio disappointed me.
3 separate units w/o coord fire (since they arent an aux choice for either contingents) means they usually wont have marker support, though the cascading +1BS if they focus fire somewhat mitigates that. So they offensively got a lot weaker just from that.
The stealth bubble was comical to give my dpod vehicles a 2+ jink but aside from that it didnt do much. Random ignore cover gun took out my pathfinders turn1, and the range limitation on most crisis suit strats heavily limit using cover (ymmv) so i usually just had a walking 6+ for the guys closest to the enemy.
So what do you guys think about taking a solo ghostkeel outside of the Optimized Stealth Cadre? Is it good? I've only got the one and I don't know how I'm going to field it yet.
Lord Ruby34 wrote: So what do you guys think about taking a solo ghostkeel outside of the Optimized Stealth Cadre? Is it good? I've only got the one and I don't know how I'm going to field it yet.
So its a bit complicated i feel. Personally, I have run 2 in a unit very successfully outside of OSC. They seem to deal enough damage and if i have to be in CC they can deal enough wounds to not get overwhelmed.
I was originally typing all these cost ratios and numbers... but my point is.. 1 ghost is barely cheaper then a unit of crisis suits, and while having higher defense does not match the same offensive capabilities.
If your playing casual I don't think you can go wrong fielding one. It is an awesome model. Even though Vineheart made me sad with his experience with a ghostwing, I am probably going to field one simply because i like the models
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question though... does the ethereal on a drone give the ability to assault jump?
Because I think it would be absolutely hilarious to field a max squad gun drone net with the Ethereal Council all on drones... Seriously how fun would that be All jinking on 4+ with FNP and you can even move+run+snapshot+assault jump for 18" of movement and a ton of shots within half range!
Its a negative stacked questions - should something be disallowed from doing something, well no, of course not.. etc etc.
.
What do you mean of course not? That is WHAT they are voting to do. Lol.
So call it what it is and see if people are really willing to vote to disallow their armies and this one to be nerfed.
Its absoilutely what is being voted on.
Exactly what I thought I was going to hear. You're upset because there is no pro-Tau bias. That is not a fair thing to ask for. The ITC needs to be as impartial as possible when presenting the poll questions, and to a great extent they do just that. Just because you believe that the RAI points one way (as do I) doesn't mean that Reece and co should be presenting it as RAW or as if reading it the other way is changing the rule. The whole point of the question is how to interpret the rule
Thatis nt a pro-Tau bias. For your EDIFICATION, I also voted that destroyed Piranhas do not come back. I also voted that those that are separated from the flock by immobilization are just a unit of one now. So give it a rest.
You are ABSOLUTELY not taking ownership of what is ACTUALLY being proposed here. and what IS being proposed here is that you disallow the second and third ghostkeel from using their wargear. In fact.
Jancoran wrote: Thatis nt a pro-Tau bias. For your EDIFICATION, I also voted that destroyed Piranhas do not come back. I also voted that those that are separated from the flock by immobilization are just a unit of one now. So give it a rest.
You are ABSOLUTELY not taking ownership of what is ACTUALLY being proposed here. and what IS being proposed here is that you disallow the second and third ghostkeel from using their wargear. In fact.
Ok buddy time to take a few deep breaths. I never said or implied anything about your voting habits. All I said was that the way that you worded the question included an undoubtedly apparent pro-Tau bias. Maybe you can't see it, but by my count, I'm the third person to point this out to you. In this thread. Just pointing that out so that you too can be edified.
I am distinctly aware of what is being proposed and I'm not sure how I *should* be "taking ownership of it", but let me attempt that:
I know that the rules seem (to me) to indicate that each Ghostkeel can utilize the holophoton countermeasures special rule.
I know that the rules seem (to others) to indicate that all Ghostkeels in a unit utilize their holophoton countermeasures simultaneously, though this seems somewhat counter-intuitive.
I know that what is being proposed is giving players the option to adopt either interpretation of the rule.
I know that there are people who are not ok with this rule being put up for a vote because they feel that their way is right and everyone else's way is wrong.
But guess what? Those people exist outside of this forum as well, and they believe that it's so readily apparent that it's the other way around. The whole point of this poll is to see which camp has more people, and let it live or die by democracy.
I also know that not everyone votes by their conscience of what they think that the rules actually say, but furthermore I know that your local TO can choose to play it however they want (even within the context of an ITC event), so it's truly the definition of moot unless you plan on taking your Ghostkeels to the LVO or BAO.
Finally, I know that nothing anyone says will change your mind, but I wanted to edify others in this thread so that they can know that Tau are fine. That these ITC rulings do not make Tau a bad or even a mediocre codex. They are still top tier and people can and will continue to do very well even at the highest level of GTs. Remember, their codex is relatively new. No one is an expert in the new Tau. It took over 6 months from publication for the Daemons codex to even start having builds that resemble the best tournament lists of today. Tau are fine
Its a negative stacked questions - should something be disallowed from doing something, well no, of course not.. etc etc.
.
What do you mean of course not? That is WHAT they are voting to do. Lol.
So call it what it is and see if people are really willing to vote to disallow their armies and this one to be nerfed.
Its absoilutely what is being voted on.
Like I said, the 10th & 38th word of the rule you are referencing are providing the ambiguity here.
Based on your logic, I could just as easily say (If I held this view) "So call it what it is and see if people are really willing to vote to allow their armies and this one to be buffed". Its just.. not helpful.
What is helpful is.. basically the entirety of what the ITC does (yes they may not be flawless. Welcome to humanity).
Please avoid capitalising words pointlessly, I feel it detracts from your points which are often really insightful.
But guess what? Those people exist outside of this forum as well, and they believe that it's so readily apparent that it's the other way around. The whole point of this poll is to see which camp has more people, and let it live or die by democracy.
I also know that not everyone votes by their conscience of what they think that the rules actually say, but furthermore I know that your local TO can choose to play it however they want (even within the context of an ITC event), so it's truly the definition of moot unless you plan on taking your Ghostkeels to the LVO or BAO.
Finally, I know that nothing anyone says will change your mind, but I wanted to edify others in this thread so that they can know that Tau are fine. That these ITC rulings do not make Tau a bad or even a mediocre codex. They are still top tier and people can and will continue to do very well even at the highest level of GTs. Remember, their codex is relatively new. No one is an expert in the new Tau. It took over 6 months from publication for the Daemons codex to even start having builds that resemble the best tournament lists of today. Tau are fine
Wait. So you say the "whole point" of the poll is to see which camp has more people... which it cant do accurately. So what good is this poll if you actually don't get that information? What actually is the value of this exercise?
Zilch. Its a C.Y.A. maneuver.
You want to know why I oppose it? I think I just told you. You don't ask questions like this if you want to actually know the answer. You ask questions like this when you want the answer to be something specific.
My "bias" that you "expected to hear" doesn't exist. What actually happened here is I am saying something you don't like. So you put on the airs of someone who "expected such a thing from a Tau General such as me":. I'll let you in on a secret: I own all but three of the 40K armies. I play them all, all the time. Ask anyone whose known me for any time. I am as likely to be facing it as playing it. That's a fact. I always will love Tau Empire, but playing them doesn't mean I am excited to face broken things when I'm not. This isn't even on the same plane of existence as some of the crap they banned or changed.
If this vote goes through, you are in fact taking the other two Ghostkeels and actually removing their wargear. You can sugar coat that anyway that makes you sleep at night, but if you don't make it clear as glass to the voter that this is what is being proposed...and that it could be done to THEM just as easily for their gear...you give them no reason to vote any way but nerf. None. And anyone, even my 11 year old can vote.
You saaaaay you know people don't vote entirely honestly all the time... When this inevitably happens, you will excuse the wording they used by telling me its the TO's job and he'll fix it anyways right? You just did so I suppose that is true.
You're not wrong in theory but you're way oversimplifying the dynamic here. First, this does nothing to absolve the criminal level of bias on the question. So pointing it out is obfuscating the point you are refuting. Reecuius doesn't want to look stupid for jumping the gun, so he is offering this "fair question" to make sure this vote goes his way. HIS bias exists even when the damage can be voto'd by the TO's better discretion. Sure. But that still makes it a ridiculous form of the questions. Doesn't change that. ITC can do all the good in the world and you can laud it til the cows come home...as long as you're intellectually honest about the shadier side too. Waving your hand and dismissing this as inconsequential somehow just because they did some "good things" is like telling me its okay to commit treason after a long military career. No its not. No amount of good excuses any amount of bad. It's still bad.
You're also assuming here that the TO is strong enough to stand up to the bully's who will CAMPAIGN on facebook and other places against your event if you dare change anything about the rulings! I know. I run them at four stores and I have had to weather that storm, 8-12 times a year. It is absolutely nuts how many PM's I get leading up to these damn things, and they all start as coy non confrontational questions, followed by more probing ones and finally one or two turn into somewhat less than friendly affairs or big threads about how "consistency is more important than one TO's opinion". Yeah. That's real life. TO's don't all come built to handle it. they'd rather be liked than right. Come to think of it... They're not the only ones.
That is not fair to the TO. For you to give the ITC wording a pass just because the TO coooould say no is a bizarre suggestion. You're not wrong, he could. But you're just not taking into account this dynamic of personality.
Since you brought it up:
No one even suggested the Tau weren't "fine" so bringing it up as a concluding statement does nothing. Nothing. Everyone knows they are fine. This isn't about The Tau empire. It's about unfair questions. The line at which the Tau are not "fine" is a subjective thing. You don't get to decide when that is and neither do I so why are you telling me they are or aren't as if this would allow any nerf to be okay? Space Marines are "fine" too. Shall we poll people to remove the Company Support rule. They will still be fine. Shall we vote to remove Invisibility from any model attached to a deathstar? I realize that removing the ability they paid points for is probably not fair...but Space Marines will be "fine". right? No. Slippery slope confirmed.
We won't agree and not because I can't be convinced. It's because you haven't said anything that directly tells me how a terribly bias'd question should garner anything remotely positive as my response? Explain it to me. Why should that happen? if you can explain why it should, perhaps I will be moved to more positively respond. if you don't like my question, pose your own and we'll see what it looks like.
I suspect (and hope) you know that I am right on one thing: this was a bias'd question. It should never have been allowed. If this goes down in flames and people vote against the nerf, it will be a sterling endorsement of their process...but not their methods.
I think we've probably reached a good stopping point for the purposes of this topic in this thread. Or at least I have. It doesn't feel productive to go back and forth.
What secondary weapon is best on a Riptide? I was thinking Fusion, but the others could be useful as well. I ask because I may soon acquire a Riptide from a friend.
I have to agree with Smart Missles being the best choice followed by Plasma and then Fusion. Smart Missiles are just awesome in everyway and compliment the Riptide very well especially in terms of range, Plasma I have second as it is another high S low AP shot and again it has the range advantage, seeing a pattern here? Fusion is not bad by any means but having to get within 9 inches to benefit form the Melta rule is why I have it third, unless you are planning on running it super aggresive in your opponents face you want weapons that can reach out and tough people.
ZergSmasher wrote: What secondary weapon is best on a Riptide? I was thinking Fusion, but the others could be useful as well. I ask because I may soon acquire a Riptide from a friend.
SMS: s5 ap5 rof4 30", Riptide wing it can be very effective as you have the range you need to target up to 6 targets (3 riptides) without moving that turn. s5 is effective at taking out troops and light vehicles (and ignores cover is great). I feel this is the most multi-role way to build a riptide.
Plasma: s6 ap2 rof1-2 12-24", Possibly equipped in the riptide wing, you still have some decent range but the fact you can't move your riptide period that turn makes me hesitate throwing them into harms way just to get the most plasma shots out. Great at light vehicle and TEQ targets though.
Fusion: s8 ap1 rof1 9-18", Do not equip in a riptide wing, you simply don't have the range or the rof to use it effectively. Personally if I equip a fusion, my riptide is hunting MCs and mid-heavy vehicles. That is not to say you can't shoot at other things... it is just simple math.. you have an rof of 1... shooting at a marine squad does not make it worth it. A very effective combo is IA and fusion... i say this over the heavy burst because you need to overcharge the burst cannon.. and with the IA you can get a s8 plate and 2 fusion shots (double tap nova).
Check out my sig as well.. i have a link to a guide that I talk about the riptide amongst other tau units =) Feel free to comment!
I'd rank the SMS lowest, specifically because it has the least synergy with the role of a Riptide, and if there's one thing Tau don't lack it's S5 AP5 spam. It's one advantage of note is the ability to hang well, well back... But frankly? A Riptide should be dancing at the edge of medium range, close enough to draw fire and rebuff it with it's durability. Ideally in the upper levels of ruins to make charging harder and benefit from cover admittedly, but still: Where it can perform it's defensive/distraction/support role.
Fusion, yes, has the issue of 18 rather than 24 inch range. Hits harder though. Ignore the melta rule for the most part: You have other units to do that kind of dedicated anti-vehicle work, the selling point is that it's S8.
Plasma is best. Supplements the high strength AP2 of the suit, supplies some reliable AP2 if you went for a burst cannon, and has the nastiest overwatch potential either way.
sms is still superior in ruins.
Are you willing to acknowledge that your opponent wants your riptide to be tied up in CC? If so, ruins are one of the best ways to end up that way, as you may not have LOS to your attackers. If you ripple fire sms, you have the possibility of 8 TL shots that ignore cover AND don't require LOS to use.
The only real reason to take either of the others is whether or not you have other sources in your list. . . and if you have the IA, the TL Plasma Rifle is more than a little redundant.
changemod wrote: I'd rank the SMS lowest, specifically because it has the least synergy with the role of a Riptide, and if there's one thing Tau don't lack it's S5 AP5 spam. It's one advantage of note is the ability to hang well, well back... But frankly? A Riptide should be dancing at the edge of medium range, close enough to draw fire and rebuff it with it's durability. Ideally in the upper levels of ruins to make charging harder and benefit from cover admittedly, but still: Where it can perform it's defensive/distraction/support role.
What, seriously?
Its "one advantage of note" is the fact that IT DOES NOT REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT TO FIRE. SMS with EWO is friggin' obnoxious as all get out to deal with, and is one of my biggest beefs with Tau.
changemod wrote: I'd rank the SMS lowest, specifically because it has the least synergy with the role of a Riptide, and if there's one thing Tau don't lack it's S5 AP5 spam. It's one advantage of note is the ability to hang well, well back... But frankly? A Riptide should be dancing at the edge of medium range, close enough to draw fire and rebuff it with it's durability. Ideally in the upper levels of ruins to make charging harder and benefit from cover admittedly, but still: Where it can perform it's defensive/distraction/support role.
What, seriously?
Its "one advantage of note" is the fact that IT DOES NOT REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT TO FIRE. SMS with EWO is friggin' obnoxious as all get out to deal with, and is one of my biggest beefs with Tau.
And you are just jumping at an irrelevant factor that is far more powerful on paper than in practice.
While it needs no LoS, the main gun does. Do if you shoot the SMS beyond LoS, you can't shoot main gun.
And having the entire riptide waste itself for mere 4 shots at S5Ap5, it's not a threat to anything.
changemod wrote: I'd rank the SMS lowest, specifically because it has the least synergy with the role of a Riptide, and if there's one thing Tau don't lack it's S5 AP5 spam. It's one advantage of note is the ability to hang well, well back... But frankly? A Riptide should be dancing at the edge of medium range, close enough to draw fire and rebuff it with it's durability. Ideally in the upper levels of ruins to make charging harder and benefit from cover admittedly, but still: Where it can perform it's defensive/distraction/support role.
What, seriously?
Its "one advantage of note" is the fact that IT DOES NOT REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT TO FIRE. SMS with EWO is friggin' obnoxious as all get out to deal with, and is one of my biggest beefs with Tau.
And you are just jumping at an irrelevant factor that is far more powerful on paper than in practice.
Speaking of "jumping at an irrelevant factor that is far more powerful on paper than in practice"...
While it needs no LoS, the main gun does. Do if you shoot the SMS beyond LoS, you can't shoot main gun.
And having the entire riptide waste itself for mere 4 shots at S5Ap5, it's not a threat to anything.
Interceptor shots aren't fired during your turn. EWO gives you Interceptor on all the weapons on a Riptide or whatever Battlesuit you've put them on. SMS with EWO gives you free shots with no LOS, with the caveat that the weapon which fired is not able to fire during your Shooting phase.
So you fire SMS with EWO during the enemy's Movement phase, maybe take some return fire on the Riptides, and then during your turn you will be able to get the main guns on the Riptide into position since you get to move and then fire your primaries.
changemod wrote: I'd rank the SMS lowest, specifically because it has the least synergy with the role of a Riptide, and if there's one thing Tau don't lack it's S5 AP5 spam. It's one advantage of note is the ability to hang well, well back... But frankly? A Riptide should be dancing at the edge of medium range, close enough to draw fire and rebuff it with it's durability. Ideally in the upper levels of ruins to make charging harder and benefit from cover admittedly, but still: Where it can perform it's defensive/distraction/support role.
What, seriously?
Its "one advantage of note" is the fact that IT DOES NOT REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT TO FIRE. SMS with EWO is friggin' obnoxious as all get out to deal with, and is one of my biggest beefs with Tau.
And you are just jumping at an irrelevant factor that is far more powerful on paper than in practice.
While it needs no LoS, the main gun does. Do if you shoot the SMS beyond LoS, you can't shoot main gun.
And having the entire riptide waste itself for mere 4 shots at S5Ap5, it's not a threat to anything.
that is why EWO can be considered game breaking. It allows any number of additional actions on a 2 gun rig like a riptide. Fire the SMS at an incoming unit from reserves when they come in, which allows the other weapon to be fired in your shooting phase. Fire both weapons at different units that come in, then use your shooting phase to run the riptide so as to redeploy it.
carldooley wrote: unless you ripple fire. then it's 8, and that in NOT nothing
Fairly unlikely behaviour, given there's better reasons to nova charge for, that it's unusual to nova every turn, and that you have to do it the turn before: But sure, you can kill a small number of troops that way. Say... about one tactical marine on average. 2 or 3 if you have intercepting markerlights.
and ignoring cover & LOS?
AP5.
I'm not sure why anyone is particularly convinced ignoring line of sight with a longer ranged burst cannon is amazing in the first place, frankly.
I'm not sure why anyone is particularly convinced ignoring line of sight with a longer ranged burst cannon is amazing in the first place, frankly.
anything that needs that cover is going to die to AP5. Genestealers-EQ? it allows us a defensive curtain around our riptides, and remember our opponents want them in combat; then they cannot shoot.
and 4 shots almost certainly won't kill the squad. but it might force a Morale check. and that is more than enough.
Kanluwen wrote: SMS with EWO is friggin' obnoxious as all get out to deal with, and is one of my biggest beefs with Tau.
It's four S5 shots. That's killing basically nothing.
It's four S5 shots that are twin-linked, Ignore Cover, and ignores the basic LOS requirements of a shooting attack.
It's also the basic secondary weapon system on Broadsides and Riptides, with no points investiture required.
You can pretend that "four S5 shots" isn't a big deal, but S5 is nothing to sneeze at when we're talking about a four shot weapon which Ignores Cover and LOS.
carldooley wrote: unless you ripple fire. then it's 8, and that in NOT nothing
Fairly unlikely behaviour, given there's better reasons to nova charge for, that it's unusual to nova every turn, and that you have to do it the turn before: But sure, you can kill a small number of troops that way. Say... about one tactical marine on average. 2 or 3 if you have intercepting markerlights.
and ignoring cover & LOS?
AP5.
I'm not sure why anyone is particularly convinced ignoring line of sight with a longer ranged burst cannon is amazing in the first place, frankly.
What better reasons are there to Nova Charge for than doubling the shots of an already powerful weapon that is fully self sufficient? If your Riptide isn't being actively hunted, you don't need the 3+ invulnerable save. If your Riptide isn't in charge proximity to enemy units or needed to grab an objective, you don't need the 4D6 Jetpack. If your Riptide isn't erroneously trying to shoot at a Land Raider with an Ion Accelerator or using the Heavy Burst Cannon, you don't need the buff to the primary weapon. Ripple Fire on a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System is useful in almost any scenario imaginable, especially when Intercepting.
I don't think you understand the value of Ignores Cover, even on AP5 weapons. You're denying units like Ravening Bikers their 2+ re-rollable Jink save. You're denying those new Genestealer Cult models any possible saving throw. You're denying light skimmers the ability to claim a cover save. You're denying Objective Secured Scouts camping on an objective from getting their 2+ cover saves. The mass of Strength 5 wounds forced by Smart Missile Systems, especially as they ignore line of sight and can thus pick off units or models that would otherwise be safe hiding in ruins, will do the rest of the work even against medium armored units. Being able to ignore line of sight means you can kill that tiny unit hiding on an objective behind line of sight blocking terrain that a Tau army would otherwise have to actively move towards to kill. It also gives you free reign to deal with oncoming reserves that try to use terrain to hide and then pop out to do their work in a subsequent turn. Players that hide their light skimmers in the early turns will find that there is no safe place to be had from the Smart Missiles.
Seriously, I can't believe we are even having this discussion. Smart Missiles are widely regarded as one of the most useful weapons in the game for numerous reasons, especially because they are so cheaply accessed throughout the army. For the Riptide specifically, they best supplement its long to medium ranged light tank-hunting and squad killing capabilities while also giving it an avenue to shoot at something that would otherwise be able to advance unmolested, they gain the most benefit from Ripple Fire and don't require the Riptide to be dangerously close to enemies so as to get the full effect out of the guns (12" for plasma, 9" for fusion). Besides, unless you are specifically fighting 2+ armored units or AV12+ tanks (the former is handled by the Ion Accelerator, the latter by the Heavy Burst Cannon) the Smart Missiles do the most damage over the course of a game compared to the other two guns against the widest range of targets; Smart Missiles excel at killing infantry, pinging wounds off of monstrous creatures and destroying light skimmers. Plasma Rifles only kill elite models more efficiently, and Fusion Blasters are only better when attacking heavy vehicles.
Long story short, always take Smart Missiles on your Riptides. It is far and away the best option overall. Also, anyone trying to undersell how great Smart Missiles are has probably never played against a cover-reliant army like Ravenwing, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Orks, even Adeptus Mechanicum (Smart Missiles tear up anything from those two codices that aren't Onagers or Kastelans). But please, try to enlighten us - and the tournament scene - as to why Smart Missiles aren't that impressive.Try your best.
Also, this argument reeks of the dummies that said "the Cluster Fire Rockets are crap because they are only S5 AP5".
yeah i never understood the hate for SMS ignoring line of sight. There isnt a single thing in our codex that can abuse that because every unit that has SMS has another far more powerful/important gun that DOESNT have ignore line of sight bonuses.
Aside from the Skyray after he fires off his seekers, ive never used the indirect shooting for SMS. Stormsurge sees over everything anyway.
Hmmm so numerous times people have talked about ripple fire and intercept...
i am like 95% sure that is not a thing.. and it states its during your shooting phase only. Let me know if i am wrong, don't have my book on me at the moment.
But yeah otherwise I think i covered all the use cases for each secondary weapon pretty well like a page or two ago
Bottom line.. there is no "best" way to load out anything because it 100% depends on who you are playing and if you try and bring an all comers list, totally depends on what else you have.
For me personally, my lists have a lot of ap2 and high str weapons already, so loading out a riptide with sms is actually very nice. It gives me that extra ROF which is something people ignore but is a huge factor in a game of random dice.
Caederes wrote: What better reasons are there to Nova Charge for than doubling the shots of an already powerful weapon that is fully self sufficient? If your Riptide isn't being actively hunted, you don't need the 3+ invulnerable save. If your Riptide isn't in charge proximity to enemy units or needed to grab an objective, you don't need the 4D6 Jetpack. If your Riptide isn't erroneously trying to shoot at a Land Raider with an Ion Accelerator or using the Heavy Burst Cannon, you don't need the buff to the primary weapon. Ripple Fire on a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System is useful in almost any scenario imaginable, especially when Intercepting.
Generally speaking, you avoid using the nova entirely most turns. It's a reckless measure for getting out of a pinch, and dual firing a crisis suit quality weapon isn't worth it.
Certainly, I'll admit you've presented literally the only reason I've ever seen to consider using ripple fire. Still a pretty harsh reason to risk wounding yourself once per turn though, and if I had a reroll on Nova I'd normally be using that to make the HBC viable.
I don't think you understand the value of Ignores Cover, even on AP5 weapons. You're denying units like Ravening Bikers their 2+ re-rollable Jink save. You're denying those new Genestealer Cult models any possible saving throw. You're denying light skimmers the ability to claim a cover save. You're denying Objective Secured Scouts camping on an objective from getting their 2+ cover saves. The mass of Strength 5 wounds forced by Smart Missile Systems, especially as they ignore line of sight and can thus pick off units or models that would otherwise be safe hiding in ruins, will do the rest of the work even against medium armored units. Being able to ignore line of sight means you can kill that tiny unit hiding on an objective behind line of sight blocking terrain that a Tau army would otherwise have to actively move towards to kill. It also gives you free reign to deal with oncoming reserves that try to use terrain to hide and then pop out to do their work in a subsequent turn. Players that hide their light skimmers in the early turns will find that there is no safe place to be had from the Smart Missiles.
This is again, a four shot weapon (8 at risk of wounding a unit who's primary asset is durability) in an army that's entirely full of S5 AP5 spam, on units that don't have a primary weapon with an incompatable profile.
Seriously, I can't believe we are even having this discussion. Smart Missiles are widely regarded as one of the most useful weapons in the game for numerous reasons, especially because they are so cheaply accessed throughout the army. For the Riptide specifically, they best supplement its long to medium ranged light tank-hunting and squad killing capabilities while also giving it an avenue to shoot at something that would otherwise be able to advance unmolested, they gain the most benefit from Ripple Fire and don't require the Riptide to be dangerously close to enemies so as to get the full effect out of the guns (12" for plasma, 9" for fusion). Besides, unless you are specifically fighting 2+ armored units or AV12+ tanks (the former is handled by the Ion Accelerator, the latter by the Heavy Burst Cannon) the Smart Missiles do the most damage over the course of a game compared to the other two guns against the widest range of targets; Smart Missiles excel at killing infantry, pinging wounds off of monstrous creatures and destroying light skimmers. Plasma Rifles only kill elite models more efficiently, and Fusion Blasters are only better when attacking heavy vehicles.
You have a S8 AP2 pie plate or 12 S6 rending shots, and your primary targets aren't elite units?
I have a million burst cannons and high yeild missile pods to handle squads and light tanks.
You know why Smart Missiles are the worst riptide weapon option? Because playing a Tau army is about building synergies between units, having redundant specialists to efficiently overkill their preferred targets. A Riptide does not operate in a vacuum, and the ability to harrass things without it's main gun is a trivial trade off.
Long story short, always take Smart Missiles on your Riptides. It is far and away the best option overall. Also, anyone trying to undersell how great Smart Missiles are has probably never played against a cover-reliant army like Ravenwing, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Orks, even Adeptus Mechanicum (Smart Missiles tear up anything from those two codices that aren't Onagers or Kastelans). But please, try to enlighten us - and the tournament scene - as to why Smart Missiles aren't that impressive.Try your best.
Also, this argument reeks of the dummies that said "the Cluster Fire Rockets are crap because they are only S5 AP5".
Your passion for writing a huge wall of text to defend this aside, your only real arguments have been a questionably valuable interception trick and that hordes don't like weapons with burst cannon profiles.
Incidentally, the rerollable 2+ cover trick?
Shoot the darkshroud first. It's an even more obvious case of a buffing unit painting a gigantic target on itself than synapse creatures.
Grizzyzz wrote: Hmmm so numerous times people have talked about ripple fire and intercept...
i am like 95% sure that is not a thing.. and it states its during your shooting phase only. Let me know if i am wrong, don't have my book on me at the moment.
Nova reactor bonuses apply until the start of your next movement phase. So as long as you've NOVA charged the turn before, you can ripple fire in your opponent's movement phase with interceptor. You obviously can't try to activate the NOVA reactor in your opponent's turn.
Grizzyzz wrote: Hmmm so numerous times people have talked about ripple fire and intercept...
i am like 95% sure that is not a thing.. and it states its during your shooting phase only. Let me know if i am wrong, don't have my book on me at the moment.
Nova reactor bonuses apply until the start of your next movement phase. So as long as you've NOVA charged the turn before, you can ripple fire in your opponent's movement phase with interceptor. You obviously can't try to activate the NOVA reactor in your opponent's turn.
Initially I thought that was the case, but I think under ripple fire it specifically states during your "shooting phase".
Grizzyzz wrote: Hmmm so numerous times people have talked about ripple fire and intercept...
i am like 95% sure that is not a thing.. and it states its during your shooting phase only. Let me know if i am wrong, don't have my book on me at the moment.
Nova reactor bonuses apply until the start of your next movement phase. So as long as you've NOVA charged the turn before, you can ripple fire in your opponent's movement phase with interceptor. You obviously can't try to activate the NOVA reactor in your opponent's turn.
Initially I thought that was the case, but I think under ripple fire it specifically states during your "shooting phase".
There's no specifics regarding Ripple Fire.
It simply states:
The Riptide Shas'vre can fire its twin-linked fusion blaster, its twin-linked plasma rifle, or its twin-linked smart missile system twice this turn. Even though these weapons are fired twice, each still only counts as firing one weapon.
Since it applies until your next Movement phase, the argument could easily be made that it would still be active during a turn of firing as Interceptor.
The Riptide Shas'vre can fire its twin-linked fusion blaster, its twin-linked plasma rifle, or its twin-linked smart missile system twice this turn. Even though these weapons are fired twice, each still only counts as firing one weapon.
Indeed... twice THIS TURN
a Turn unless specified is defined as a player turn in the BRB. Therefore as much as we all want it too... the ripple fire only happens during your shooting phase.
The Riptide Shas'vre can fire its twin-linked fusion blaster, its twin-linked plasma rifle, or its twin-linked smart missile system twice this turn. Even though these weapons are fired twice, each still only counts as firing one weapon.
Indeed... twice THIS TURN
a Turn unless specified is defined as a player turn in the BRB. Therefore as much as we all want it too... the ripple fire only happens during your shooting phase.
Unfortunately, Nova Reactor supercedes that. Because of the fact that Nova Reactor is active until your next Movement Phase, Ripple Fire can certainly be used twice in a row.
really dont think it overrides the BRB when it says "this turn" on that specific nova charge effect. Nova lasts until the next movement phase because some of his effects would be absolutely pointless if it didnt linger (3++).
Also note that the main weapon nova charge profile doesnt specify "this turn" while ripple fire does.
Plasma is actually mathematically inferior to, or insignificantly different from, both of the other secondary weapons options against most targets except within 12" (or, in comparison with the fusion blaster, within 18"-24").
Against MEQ for instance the SMS does 0.667 wounds, while the PR does 0.625. Against T6 3+ the SMS does 0.333 vs. the PR's 0.375 -- very close to each other.
So I had some crazy ideas with the new Space Wolf formations that are coming out.. specifically the furrtide formation..
If you take a full sized formation you have: 5x 15 dogs + Cyber wolf. That gives you 75 models on terminator bases for 650 points. (Probably don't even need the full amount). But essentially the formation lets all five units join together similar to the greentide.
So my thoughts.. I realize for space marines you can get some absolutely obnoxious combinations, however, what does this do for the greater good?
Wouldn't it be nice to bubble wrap your entire army from turn 1 assault (now that Tyranids can do it too); Have a melee threat outside of a couple select models (note models not units..).
So here is what i am thinking.. ~50 dogs is ~500pts..
I think as it stands, kroot are the cheapest bubble wrap option (points wise ~4 pts a model i think?), but the wolves come out ~8 points a model and i think they are worth twice the cost in terms of stats and formation bonuses.
You wouldn't "have" to join them into one giant unit either.. if there is no reason too, you could run them as 5 units just to help claim objectives.
Grizzyzz wrote: So I had some crazy ideas with the new Space Wolf formations that are coming out.. specifically the furrtide formation..
If you take a full sized formation you have: 5x 15 dogs + Cyber wolf. That gives you 75 models on terminator bases for 650 points. (Probably don't even need the full amount). But essentially the formation lets all five units join together similar to the greentide.
I mean its not a bad idea! How durable / hitty / fast are they?
Grizzyzz wrote: So I had some crazy ideas with the new Space Wolf formations that are coming out.. specifically the furrtide formation..
If you take a full sized formation you have: 5x 15 dogs + Cyber wolf. That gives you 75 models on terminator bases for 650 points. (Probably don't even need the full amount). But essentially the formation lets all five units join together similar to the greentide.
I mean its not a bad idea! How durable / hitty / fast are they?
I need to double check the stats with my friend who actually has all the books.
But from what i do know, or would assume they are T4, they do move 12" and have some other rules.. The cyber wolves essentially have power fists i am pretty sure. I think they may also be beasts which gains them some special rules such as "ignore terrain" i think.
One of the bonuses of the formation i only know from BoLs which is 20+ models and they gain +1 attack and monster hunter, but I am assuming they have other tier bonuses as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I could also see some rather neat conversions as well...
Such as using kroot shapers on drones or their own dogs as "jump pack librarians", and running a librarious conclave with it. I only say this because of the absurd combinations that can ensue from this.
hammerhand.. invisibility.. giving stealth or shrouded.. amongst other chapter tactic bonuses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote: I mean its not a bad idea! How durable / hitty / fast are they?
My friend got back to me. ws5 bs0 s4 t4 w1 A2 I4 L8 av -
They are beasts which gives them ignore terrain and what not, and have some other rule that i can't remember now.
The no armor save thing is kinda meh though, i mean Kroot practically don't have a save anyway and our T3.
Tried out the ghostwing again and they performed dramatically better this time.
Went against admech/skittari. The ghostkeels themselves didnt do a TON but they did clean up on some 4+ armor dorks footslogging up the field. That stealth bubble though saved my bacon. Throughout the game i dont know how many 3s i rolled on a normally 4+ cover save. Would have lost my pathfinders and the devilfish transporting my breachers by turn2 at the latest if i didnt have that stealth bubble.
Ironically this guy is the only friend i have that has issues with the ghostkeels in general. Cause hes the only one that insists on killing them lol. After 3 turns of trying to kill my pathfinders, commander squad, and the 2+ jinking devilfish he decided to try and get rid of the stealth bubble...w/o assault so that completely worked in his favor *cough*. Did kill 1 of them, but he needed to kill 2 of them.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tried out the ghostwing again and they performed dramatically better this time.
Went against admech/skittari. The ghostkeels themselves didnt do a TON but they did clean up on some 4+ armor dorks footslogging up the field. That stealth bubble though saved my bacon. Throughout the game i dont know how many 3s i rolled on a normally 4+ cover save. Would have lost my pathfinders and the devilfish transporting my breachers by turn2 at the latest if i didnt have that stealth bubble.
Ironically this guy is the only friend i have that has issues with the ghostkeels in general. Cause hes the only one that insists on killing them lol. After 3 turns of trying to kill my pathfinders, commander squad, and the 2+ jinking devilfish he decided to try and get rid of the stealth bubble...w/o assault so that completely worked in his favor *cough*. Did kill 1 of them, but he needed to kill 2 of them.
Yeah i am not surprised he has issues with the Ghostkeel. Admech and any other 4+ majority save have trouble with them. IG for example.. pretty much everything they can field can be killed by a ghostkeel with ease. Everything outside of super heavies, but even those can be damaged lol.
Looks like Piranha Wing lost both votes (immobilized count as destroyed as well as destroyed models are not replaced)
Ghostkeel's were not nerfed which is very nice.
Looks like Piranha Wing lost both votes (immobilized count as destroyed as well as destroyed models are not replaced)
Ghostkeel's were not nerfed which is very nice.
Glad to see the ghostkeel got a little love here.. Sad that the pirahna will be lost to the wind again. Did this rule not come from an older apoc formation where it specified that lost pirahna also return?
My riptide is a total flop every 3rd game it seems. 1-2 games it does really well, even without markers, then i get that one game where even if i boost it to BS8 because i landed far more marks than i needed and had no other plans to hit that target except the riptide i STILL flop thanks to gets hot.
Had one game where he got hot 3 turns in a row, scattered 8" after my BS was factored in and hit my own crap (byebye crisis suit...), and charged a rhino only to fail with all 4 hits...to hit not to pen. He literally did nothing all game except take out my own damn suit.
Part of the reason i stopped using them. That and theyre a little strong for friendly games...one in a 2k is fine i feel but i prefer the ghostkeels anyway. Bit more versatile.
Course i still have 3 riptides lol. Just recently finished painting the 3rd one actually, shows how often i use all 3 if i took 2 years almost to paint the third lol. Originally had LEDs in his gun that pulsed on/off slowly, but the electronical doodads i used to do that were too bulky so i couldnt make the base not look massive. Figured since it was a very subtle effect anyway to just say screw it and clip the wires off his foot (getting 3 wires through his foot, ankle, leg, waist, torso, arm, then positioned right in the gun was not fun rofl) Now im painting a Ta'unar. About 10hrs painting so far...painting not assembling...and i got his arms and the cod-piece done lol. So damn huge...
Pretty much how my riptides perform, which is why i usually take 2. well did up until Montka dropped (where i only take one).
I haven't actually used the riptide wing yet, but I probably will in my next game for the lolz.
Hobby wise.. I have been so unmotivated to paint anything lately.. or build anything for that matter, i have 3 units of tetras i need to assemble!
Automatically Appended Next Post: i have been trying to sell a ton of stuff as well.. successfully sold my Grey knights.. but my tyranids are being difficult.. Not to mention you would think selling Imperial knights would be easy.. nope =/
i got a friend that plays a lot of ITC tournies i usually dont hold back against. For some reason he wants me to bring the riptidewing AND the stormsurge one of these days lol.
Personally i dont get how the hell people make that work in 1850pts. Triptide + stormsurge = 1103pts (assuming youre abusing the reroll nova with 2 bursttides so youre also taking VT/Stims on them). That leaves 747pts for walling units and markerlights. Not enough points to me, since if you dont have 1-2 units designed to roadblock fast assaulty units you WILL get assaulted turn2 and probably die.
That and the Stormsurge alone devours markerlights. Destroyer missiles = 5 markers to guarantee it works (1 for D profile, 2 for ignore cover, 2 for BS5 because its NOT a seeker missile sadly)
Vineheart01 wrote: i got a friend that plays a lot of ITC tournies i usually dont hold back against. For some reason he wants me to bring the riptidewing AND the stormsurge one of these days lol.
Personally i dont get how the hell people make that work in 1850pts. Triptide + stormsurge = 1103pts (assuming youre abusing the reroll nova with 2 bursttides so youre also taking VT/Stims on them). That leaves 747pts for walling units and markerlights. Not enough points to me, since if you dont have 1-2 units designed to roadblock fast assaulty units you WILL get assaulted turn2 and probably die.
That and the Stormsurge alone devours markerlights. Destroyer missiles = 5 markers to guarantee it works (1 for D profile, 2 for ignore cover, 2 for BS5 because its NOT a seeker missile sadly)
You could offset that with the Drone Net. I actually did that at a local tournament and my Riptide Wing and my Stormsurge absolutely melted the faces off of everything. I lost my last game at top table not due to shooting or assault... I lost it to a Seer counsel with Horrify and Terrify.... First game I lost all five (I also use an Y'Vahra) of my Rock'em Sock'em robots. I feel iffy about that many drones though since they can't score. My recent list has a Riptide Wing, a Tau CAD with the Y'Vahra, Dronemander, and some Strikers, and I have an Eldar CAD with a single Windrider Farseer, 9 total Scatter Bikes, and a Sword and Board Wraithknight. Pretty lethal if you ask me.
Vineheart01 wrote: i got a friend that plays a lot of ITC tournies i usually dont hold back against. For some reason he wants me to bring the riptidewing AND the stormsurge one of these days lol.
Personally i dont get how the hell people make that work in 1850pts. Triptide + stormsurge = 1103pts (assuming youre abusing the reroll nova with 2 bursttides so youre also taking VT/Stims on them). That leaves 747pts for walling units and markerlights. Not enough points to me, since if you dont have 1-2 units designed to roadblock fast assaulty units you WILL get assaulted turn2 and probably die.
That and the Stormsurge alone devours markerlights. Destroyer missiles = 5 markers to guarantee it works (1 for D profile, 2 for ignore cover, 2 for BS5 because its NOT a seeker missile sadly)
You could offset that with the Drone Net. I actually did that at a local tournament and my Riptide Wing and my Stormsurge absolutely melted the faces off of everything. I lost my last game at top table not due to shooting or assault... I lost it to a Seer counsel with Horrify and Terrify.... First game I lost all five (I also use an Y'Vahra) of my Rock'em Sock'em robots. I feel iffy about that many drones though since they can't score. My recent list has a Riptide Wing, a Tau CAD with the Y'Vahra, Dronemander, and some Strikers, and I have an Eldar CAD with a single Windrider Farseer, 9 total Scatter Bikes, and a Sword and Board Wraithknight. Pretty lethal if you ask me.
I've been thinking about trying something like that. I like the firepower but we are seriously missing a counter-assault threat
My usual go-to for anti-charge is a piranha squad. 200pts nets you 5 piranhas and 10 gun drones. Ive literally never had them fail to stall the enemy till turn 3-4.
Piranhas are indeed a great wall. The ITC says we cant have nice things like a Gunfort (screw them, I am playing with a Gunfort) and Piranhas are lke the next best thing. Not as cool but useful for some similar reasons.
Vineheart01 wrote: i got a friend that plays a lot of ITC tournies i usually dont hold back against. For some reason he wants me to bring the riptidewing AND the stormsurge one of these days lol.
Personally i dont get how the hell people make that work in 1850pts. Triptide + stormsurge = 1103pts (assuming youre abusing the reroll nova with 2 bursttides so youre also taking VT/Stims on them). That leaves 747pts for walling units and markerlights. Not enough points to me, since if you dont have 1-2 units designed to roadblock fast assaulty units you WILL get assaulted turn2 and probably die.
That and the Stormsurge alone devours markerlights. Destroyer missiles = 5 markers to guarantee it works (1 for D profile, 2 for ignore cover, 2 for BS5 because its NOT a seeker missile sadly)
You could offset that with the Drone Net. I actually did that at a local tournament and my Riptide Wing and my Stormsurge absolutely melted the faces off of everything. I lost my last game at top table not due to shooting or assault... I lost it to a Seer counsel with Horrify and Terrify.... First game I lost all five (I also use an Y'Vahra) of my Rock'em Sock'em robots. I feel iffy about that many drones though since they can't score. My recent list has a Riptide Wing, a Tau CAD with the Y'Vahra, Dronemander, and some Strikers, and I have an Eldar CAD with a single Windrider Farseer, 9 total Scatter Bikes, and a Sword and Board Wraithknight. Pretty lethal if you ask me.
I've been thinking about trying something like that. I like the firepower but we are seriously missing a counter-assault threat
That's why I started taking an Eldar CAD. It worked out well in the last game I played; I hid everything inside my void shield and my opponent dropped an invisible grav cent squad and a skyhammer in my face. I was able to assault his centurions with the wraithknight and eventually killed them once invisibility dropped.
Give me some advice guys... I am playing the new Blackmanes Space Wolves decurian on Saturday. I am guessing he will have around 6-9 drop pods and they all are free and come in turn 1.
I have been null deploying which i think is an effective tactic in this case, but with so much coming in I would definitely be fearful of getting wiped out if I do so.
I most likely will be taking a Dawn Blade Contigent, and my commander will most likely be as follows because no matter what this is my own personal fluff build.
Commander: - Iridium Armor - Fusion Blades (TL fusion blaster) - Neuroweb Jammer - Puretide Chip - Stim or Shield (???) - Vector Thrusters * I am debating Talismon for the Deny and 5++ as i can then stack the stim on here as well.
The stim Talismon build checks in around 230 points of beefy awesomeness!
Anyway though, aside from that I am open to suggestions! Oh and no riptide wing.. because I am not trying to be really mean to a fresh formation off the block.
Love the commander I would go for the talisman, and no stimm or shield. I think your tatic will work, maybe flyier formations And huge amount of crisis with buff'vre lots of ap2?
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought you couldn't bring iridium and such (Codex Tau) signature systems in a Dawnblade since it's required to be a Farsight Enclaves detachment?
pleasantnoodles wrote: Forgive my ignorance, but I thought you couldn't bring iridium and such (Codex Tau) signature systems in a Dawnblade since it's required to be a Farsight Enclaves detachment?
New update to FSE says you can take both now in a FSE detachment
The only I bring farsight is for guaranteed no scattered, since I am prone to mishap and that is a lot of points to either be useless or die immediately.
heh i wouldnt ever deepstrike more than 3 crisis suits w/o farsight. Their footprint is massive not only to high numbers but also thanks to the larger base theyre on.
Unless you are playing with sparce terrain, which you arent suppose to do, there shouldnt be any open grounds wide enough to allow any scatter and still safely land.
Vineheart01 wrote: heh i wouldnt ever deepstrike more than 3 crisis suits w/o farsight. Their footprint is massive not only to high numbers but also thanks to the larger base theyre on.
Unless you are playing with sparce terrain, which you arent suppose to do, there shouldnt be any open grounds wide enough to allow any scatter and still safely land.
Isn't it only if you land in impassable terrain, off the board or on enemy units that you mishap? If we land in terrain then we just take a dangerous terrain test which isn't too bad.
And we can always use minimum squads of stealth suits with homing beacons to get safe landing bubbles.
Yes you can land on general terrain IF you can place the model. If you land on say the edge of a tall building you cant place the unit, so you mishap.
Its more about can i place the model, not does the terrain make me mishap. If you can place it on say a forest its just a danger test but not a mishap. They have to be base-to-base, anything preventing that = mishap.
Which i completely didnt think about until i ran the Retal Cadre with a maxed out broadside squad....and deepstriked them lol. Yeah...they never landed rofl
Which is why i have such hate for droppods. They completely ignore the danger of deepstrike for pennies.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yes you can land on general terrain IF you can place the model. If you land on say the edge of a tall building you cant place the unit, so you mishap.
Its more about can i place the model, not does the terrain make me mishap. If you can place it on say a forest its just a danger test but not a mishap. They have to be base-to-base, anything preventing that = mishap.
Which i completely didnt think about until i ran the Retal Cadre with a maxed out broadside squad....and deepstriked them lol. Yeah...they never landed rofl
Which is why i have such hate for droppods. They completely ignore the danger of deepstrike for pennies.
Yep I always have a source for no scatter, whether it be farsight or homing beacons.
When i run Retalliation + Counterstrike Cadre my pathfinders carry the homing beacon for me. They are fairly survivable for the most part, the devilfish is a little beefier with the av12 front and 3+ jinks
Automatically Appended Next Post: A quick add... I also run a warscaper drone with my commander, always.. move through cover is excellent and the difficult -> dangerous bubble is really nice when you hop into terrain.
Any reason not to include an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and a void shield generator as a Tau player? For 134 points combined they seem to solve allot of potential headaches.
Regarding crisis suits, you could take an fse commander with buffmander gear now and a 9 man crisis unit as a troop slot in a cad. I'm going to take Aun'do to make my big crisis suit unit fearless. Run them with missile pods and some marker drones rather then try to deliver them as a "bomb".
Bryan01 wrote: Any reason not to include an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and a void shield generator as a Tau player? For 134 points combined they seem to solve allot of potential headaches.
Not Battle Brothers... I would say that is pretty much the only reason. The skulls scatter perks will not be granted to Tau. Void shields however, I know people use a lot.
Bryan01 wrote: I'm going to take Aun'do to make my big crisis suit unit fearless.
Hey what is Aun'Do's rule that makes them fearless?
Just hide the inquisitor in reserves and walk him on to some corner far far away
Aun'do is fearless rather then the usual ethereal stubborn. Comes with the Tau warlord trait that allows you to hit the ground and get back up as well without any negative effects. 5 melts bombs more expensive then your regular ethereal, comes stock with a bunch of gear you'd prefer not to buy (hover drone, recon armour, honour blade)..
Bryan01 wrote: Just hide the inquisitor in reserves and walk him on to some corner far far away
Aun'do is fearless rather then the usual ethereal stubborn. Comes with the Tau warlord trait that allows you to hit the ground and get back up as well without any negative effects. 5 melts bombs more expensive then your regular ethereal, comes stock with a bunch of gear you'd prefer not to buy (hover drone, recon armour, honour blade)..
Am I correct in thinking that an ethereal on a hover drone gains "assault jump move" and "deep strike" cause that would be awesome..
i wish that was the case but doesnt it make him ignore terrain only? I mean, if it gave him Jetpack movements i would TOTALLY kitbash an ethereal on a hoverboard and paint him all surfer cliche-like lol
edit: yeah, unless his disk is different it just makes him completely ignore terrain even when charging. Which is pretty damn pointless considering it doesnt increase any mobility of his unit (not even by autopassing terrain tests) or enable assault moves so he can join suits and not slow them down.
Also i had an idea about Hazard Suits. Their main issue to me is their durability vs the cost is a little steep...how about slapping Shadowsun in there? Theyre not MCs so she can join them for T5 protection, grant them stealth/shroud, option for the command drone, 3D6 jetpack movements, and both of them have 18" guns that for the most part want the same targets.
Yeah, no dice on the hover drone, it ain't that hot. But if you're investing a couple of hundred points into a crisis star, fearless is a handy thing to have I figure.
And a tanky buffmander. And a void shield Gen. And a Ghostkeel wing...
Never used shadownsun or hazard suits so can't add much to that topic, exceot that i'd be cautious about relying upon stealth+shrouding with all the ignore cover floating about these days :(
Vineheart01 wrote: i wish that was the case but doesnt it make him ignore terrain only? I mean, if it gave him Jetpack movements i would TOTALLY kitbash an ethereal on a hoverboard and paint him all surfer cliche-like lol
edit: yeah, unless his disk is different it just makes him completely ignore terrain even when charging. Which is pretty damn pointless considering it doesnt increase any mobility of his unit (not even by autopassing terrain tests) or enable assault moves so he can join suits and not slow them down.
Also i had an idea about Hazard Suits. Their main issue to me is their durability vs the cost is a little steep...how about slapping Shadowsun in there? Theyre not MCs so she can join them for T5 protection, grant them stealth/shroud, option for the command drone, 3D6 jetpack movements, and both of them have 18" guns that for the most part want the same targets.
Shame.. that would have been money..
As per shadowsun.. is she not still limited on joining stealth suits because of the last FAQ concerning the "infiltrate" special rule.
That aside, i think the base hazards with the two twinlinked burst cannons are exactly what they should cost. T5, defensive grenades, a hit & run ability, essentially 6 hard points.. (4 for the guns already + 2 open ones) all for 75 pts is not that bad... granted you HAVE to buy atleast one optional hardpoint so your checking in at ~80-100 points a model... but still that is not so bad.
The problem starts arising when you go to upgrade their weapons... the cost just gets way out of hand... which is unfortunate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still though, as a personal fluff I always run a fusion blade commander, and with the new relic update, he just got so amazing.
That said, I would really enjoy running him with a hazard team. Imagine a fusion commander running around with fusion cascade suits.... WOW what an expensive unit..
My commander:
- Iridium
- Fusion Blades
- Talismon
- Puretide Chip
- Refactor field
- Neuroweb Jammer
- Stim
- Vector Thrusters
- 2 Shield drones
* Most likely I will take a warscaper drone
This guy checks out at a hefty ~280 points but is a boss... he was good before he was t5.. well worth the extra points, and access to the TE stuff.
But joined with a squad of 3 Fusion cascade troops your getting Tank/Monster hunter, plus good survivability and CC threat. unit runs around 600 points depending on loadout..
Only weapons i'd ever put on the hazards is the phased ion guns. +10pts isnt that bad for 4 S4 AP4 rending shots at all. And yeah i agree theyre a bit pricy but im not super competitive anyway. Shadowsun is only restricted from deploying with noninfiltrating units. General opinion is that if they deepstrike or outflank the FAQ means nothing, only the act of infiltrating. Either way, not a problem since nothing prevents you from infiltrating into the hazard team and joining them that way. She can join them normally, just cant deploy with them.
The fusion cascade is just a damn joke. 12" D3 S6 meltas...dafuq? The only thing thats good against is 2+ armor targets, which tau do not need a ~140pt model to deal with 2+ armor. The third weapon is technically good but not for 20pts each on top of the 75pt base. Firing a ton of large blasts is always awesome but again, not for that insane cost.
I wish these two guns got revamped or heavy price cut. The 10pt one feels way way stronger to me and its the cheapest....? makes no sense. As for the base cost, i wish they were either 15-20pts cheaper or had 3 wounds. Not sure why they dont have 3 wounds since Tau suits all have an unusual amount of wounds for what they are.
The fusion cascade is just a damn joke. 12" D3 S6 meltas...dafuq? The only thing thats good against is 2+ armor targets, which tau do not need a ~140pt model to deal with 2+ armor. The third weapon is technically good but not for 20pts each on top of the 75pt base. Firing a ton of large blasts is always awesome but again, not for that insane cost.
My opinion used to match this exact logic, but I have come to appreciate the concept of the cascades. Are they too expensive.. yeah they definitely are, should they be 18" .. yeah probably should.. but people have had success with them. Average roll is glancing armor 13 which is not that bad. Your not hunting landraiders but you can pretty much delete any TEQ or <AV13 very reliably.
As for the base cost, i wish they were either 15-20pts cheaper or had 3 wounds. Not sure why they dont have 3 wounds since Tau suits all have an unusual amount of wounds for what they are.
Yeah I definitely agree.. I can rationalize how they might be ok as is (like i did above), but to use them regularly, they need to be about 15-20pts cheaper as you said.. that would offset the cost of some of the weapons. The issue I see is the broadside being a comparable platform in terms of points. A loaded out broadside is going to be around 75 points, so I think that is where they were coming from; Probably rationalizing similarly as I did. I find it funny they have that blast weapon option yet they don't even sell a model varient with that weapon option. I think O'Ralai is the only one that comes with what probably is that weapon bit.>
I've faced Hazard Suits before, so I know they're pretty good. I'd love to get some for my army, but 33 GBP (which I think comes to around $50) per suit is just a little outrageous. If I'm gonna drop 50 bucks on some single models like that, I'll be getting Broadsides instead. The Hazard suits are cool models, though.
Now, one thing I've heard in different places is that Tetras are not very good anymore. Is that true? If they are decent, I might just get some when I get my tax return (they will be my first FW models), as they are very cool and they come in a 2-pack for barely more than a single Hazard suit.
Now, one thing I've heard in different places is that Tetras are not very good anymore. Is that true? If they are decent, I might just get some when I get my tax return (they will be my first FW models), as they are very cool and they come in a 2-pack for barely more than a single Hazard suit.
The only thing against tetras right now, is you can't take forgeworld units in the new formations.. so your "taxed" if you will, in bringing a CAD to include any that you want (tetras, hazards, riptides, etc).
But in terms of price.. I think they are probably the most comparable to normal 40k. I think a piranha is around 25-30 each.. tetras are only slightly smaller.
oz of the north wrote: Regarding the forgeworld suits, which is better the r'varna or y'ahra.
I think the Y'ahra or whatever it is called is the better one right now. The R'varna is still fun to play and i use one occasionally, but it got hit with the nerf bat a while ago.
R'varna is durable as hell table-long bombardment. I'd place it a little above the stock Riptide in terms of effectiveness for the cost, since its AP4 even though its causing a ton of damage.
Y'vahra is straight up OPlol. That thing looks at a vehicle and it goes away. Every other turn leap across the table is insane too.
Vineheart01 wrote: R'varna is durable as hell table-long bombardment. I'd place it a little above the stock Riptide in terms of effectiveness for the cost, since its AP4 even though its causing a ton of damage.
Y'vahra is straight up OPlol. That thing looks at a vehicle and it goes away. Every other turn leap across the table is insane too.
Not to mention the.. i have an ap2 flamer if you considering charging me...
I've been using a Fusion Blade Commander with Farsight and Bodyguard Crisis in a Ret Cadre based DBC for a few weeks now, all pre-FSE update (so no TE sigs), and I have to say, its a pleasant change to be actively seeking assault with my Tau. No scatter DS on turn 2 (Ret Cadre Commander + Farsight), auto-LOS! from the Bodyguards, and VRT to leave assault when I want to is like playing a real melee Deathstar. Can't recommend it enough!
jeffersonian000 wrote: I've been using a Fusion Blade Commander with Farsight and Bodyguard Crisis in a Ret Cadre based DBC for a few weeks now, all pre-FSE update (so no TE sigs), and I have to say, its a pleasant change to be actively seeking assault with my Tau. No scatter DS on turn 2 (Ret Cadre Commander + Farsight), auto-LOS! from the Bodyguards, and VRT to leave assault when I want to is like playing a real melee Deathstar. Can't recommend it enough!
Makes me feel like a whole person.
SJ
Just having the puretide chip on a fusion blade commander is money.. that relic isn't even expensive by any means. Furious Charge, stubborn, MC/Tank hunter..... so much flexibility.
Vineheart01 wrote: R'varna is durable as hell table-long bombardment. I'd place it a little above the stock Riptide in terms of effectiveness for the cost, since its AP4 even though its causing a ton of damage.
Y'vahra is straight up OPlol. That thing looks at a vehicle and it goes away. Every other turn leap across the table is insane too.
Not to mention the.. i have an ap2 flamer if you considering charging me...
That too. When he first came out i proxied him in against a couple friends. 3 games total, and all 3 games he single-handedly ravaged more than twice his points with minimal if any marker support. Turn1: jumped across the table and popped a Monolith. Turn2: walked over and popped the 2nd monolith. Turn3: jumped across the table and torched some Destroyers hiding in a building. Turn4: it finally took a wound, but then it just walked over and torched a warrior blob. Turn5: bounced across the board to deal with some warriors getting too close for comfort, denying the assault.
Hes insane. Unfortunately hes terrible at high toughness, just like our entire codex for the most part. Our best answer to WKs is still mass Fusion spam or getting lucky on D tables.
Is there any differences in the updated Farsight Enclaves other than they can take signature systems from the main codex now? Kinda feel like running an all suit list.
Vineheart01 wrote: R'varna is durable as hell table-long bombardment. I'd place it a little above the stock Riptide in terms of effectiveness for the cost, since its AP4 even though its causing a ton of damage.
Y'vahra is straight up OPlol. That thing looks at a vehicle and it goes away. Every other turn leap across the table is insane too.
Not to mention the.. i have an ap2 flamer if you considering charging me...
That too.
When he first came out i proxied him in against a couple friends. 3 games total, and all 3 games he single-handedly ravaged more than twice his points with minimal if any marker support.
Turn1: jumped across the table and popped a Monolith. Turn2: walked over and popped the 2nd monolith. Turn3: jumped across the table and torched some Destroyers hiding in a building. Turn4: it finally took a wound, but then it just walked over and torched a warrior blob. Turn5: bounced across the board to deal with some warriors getting too close for comfort, denying the assault.
Hes insane. Unfortunately hes terrible at high toughness, just like our entire codex for the most part. Our best answer to WKs is still mass Fusion spam or getting lucky on D tables.
I've had similar success with my Y'Vahra in my games, that AP 2 Flamer just ruins people's day. The beautiful thing about the model is due to his native BS 4 and the potency of his shots, he rarely needs Markerlights. SOMETIMES I will use two to ensure his two shot AP 2 flamer doesn't suffer a Gets Hot! result. And don't forget the other added bonuses for Flamers, D3 (per shot) hits in Overwatch and d6 (per shot) hits against units within open topped vehicles/buildings.
Vineheart01 wrote: R'varna is durable as hell table-long bombardment. I'd place it a little above the stock Riptide in terms of effectiveness for the cost, since its AP4 even though its causing a ton of damage.
Y'vahra is straight up OPlol. That thing looks at a vehicle and it goes away. Every other turn leap across the table is insane too.
Not to mention the.. i have an ap2 flamer if you considering charging me...
That too.
When he first came out i proxied him in against a couple friends. 3 games total, and all 3 games he single-handedly ravaged more than twice his points with minimal if any marker support.
Turn1: jumped across the table and popped a Monolith. Turn2: walked over and popped the 2nd monolith. Turn3: jumped across the table and torched some Destroyers hiding in a building. Turn4: it finally took a wound, but then it just walked over and torched a warrior blob. Turn5: bounced across the board to deal with some warriors getting too close for comfort, denying the assault.
Hes insane. Unfortunately hes terrible at high toughness, just like our entire codex for the most part. Our best answer to WKs is still mass Fusion spam or getting lucky on D tables.
I've had similar success with my Y'Vahra in my games, that AP 2 Flamer just ruins people's day. The beautiful thing about the model is due to his native BS 4 and the potency of his shots, he rarely needs Markerlights. SOMETIMES I will use two to ensure his two shot AP 2 flamer doesn't suffer a Gets Hot! result. And don't forget the other added bonuses for Flamers, D3 (per shot) hits in Overwatch and d6 (per shot) hits against units within open topped vehicles/buildings.
Do you find that they are better with stimulant injectors? I feel like with only 4 wounds this is a pretty good bet for them (although TBH the nova is nice but not always necessary)
Stims on a y'vahra is along the lines of the shields on a stormsurge. You're already investing a lot in a model that isnt immortally durable, spend the points to make him survive.
Y'vahra's only problem is his range. 12" range on his guns means if he doesnt kill what hes shooting at and/or gets a lousy jet movement, he's getting charged. That, and the main weapons that can reliably wound/pen their armor are less than 24", so even if he gets a good jump hes in danger range of them.
Thats why i was hesitant at first about using him. Weapons were undoubtedly crazy, but that range coupled with 1 less wound and still having nova dangers made me worry he was goin to die to mass plasma, melta, or some other AP2 weapon. Stims kinda kept him alive for me so he could absolutely wreck face.
I'm going to use my ghostkeels as two Y'vahras next week. Double Y'vahra. Double stormsurge. Drone net and drone controller commander with some obsec crisis suits. Feels right
I don't post on here a whole lot but I would like to get other tau players thoughts on my list idea for an upcoming GT.
FSE CAD
Commander
2 MP, DC, TL, Iridium, 2 marker drones
2 x 2 crisis suits with dual ion
2 x 2 crisis suits with dual plasma
monat with dual fusion
4 marker drones
y'vahra with stims
2 x 1 missilesides
VSG with 1 additional shield (2 total)
OSC
2 x 3 stealths
vre. ML&TL
3 ghostkeels
3 ion, 3 fusion, 3 EWO, 2 TL
I know most GT lists we see are riptide wing or double stormsurge but I think I can win games with this list. The crisis suits give me fairly mobile ob sec that also packs some punch while the y'vahra and OSC put out a lot of hurt. I put the VSG in to help against some alpha strike lists but I would need to keep the crisis suits on the table to fill the bubble so pods can't land within the 12" zone. I don't know the specifics for missions yet but it is modified ITC faq and same style of missions with 4 having objectives as primary and 2 with kill points as primary. I do have a fair amount of easy kill points but with my firepower I think I could keep even.
So what does everyone think? Are crisis suits not worth it anymore how can I improve this while keeping the style? (as a note I only have 1 riptide and the y'vahra and no stormsurges so even if I wanted to they are not options for me)
Vineheart01 wrote: R'varna is durable as hell table-long bombardment. I'd place it a little above the stock Riptide in terms of effectiveness for the cost, since its AP4 even though its causing a ton of damage.
Y'vahra is straight up OPlol. That thing looks at a vehicle and it goes away. Every other turn leap across the table is insane too.
Not to mention the.. i have an ap2 flamer if you considering charging me...
That too.
When he first came out i proxied him in against a couple friends. 3 games total, and all 3 games he single-handedly ravaged more than twice his points with minimal if any marker support.
Turn1: jumped across the table and popped a Monolith. Turn2: walked over and popped the 2nd monolith. Turn3: jumped across the table and torched some Destroyers hiding in a building. Turn4: it finally took a wound, but then it just walked over and torched a warrior blob. Turn5: bounced across the board to deal with some warriors getting too close for comfort, denying the assault.
Hes insane. Unfortunately hes terrible at high toughness, just like our entire codex for the most part. Our best answer to WKs is still mass Fusion spam or getting lucky on D tables.
I've had similar success with my Y'Vahra in my games, that AP 2 Flamer just ruins people's day. The beautiful thing about the model is due to his native BS 4 and the potency of his shots, he rarely needs Markerlights. SOMETIMES I will use two to ensure his two shot AP 2 flamer doesn't suffer a Gets Hot! result. And don't forget the other added bonuses for Flamers, D3 (per shot) hits in Overwatch and d6 (per shot) hits against units within open topped vehicles/buildings.
Do you find that they are better with stimulant injectors? I feel like with only 4 wounds this is a pretty good bet for them (although TBH the nova is nice but not always necessary)
It's the only way I take my big suits in any competitive game anymore. The Y'Vahra can, and will take a seriously beating at his range.
luke1705 wrote: Do you find that they are better with stimulant injectors? I feel like with only 4 wounds this is a pretty good bet for them (although TBH the nova is nice but not always necessary)
I always give my Riptides whatever variant Stimulant Injectors if I ever have the points to, making an already durable unit even stronger and this in particular goes for the Y'Varha for as mentioned it has to get up close and personal in order to use its weapons.
Ghostkeels are the only unit that really doesnt need stims. It still helps them, but ghostkeels are usually ran in pairs or trios if ran at all so the points rack up quick, and since they have a walking 2+ cover and holophoton defenses its not often they get wounded anyway. That, and said defenses make people not even want to bother shooting them.
Riptides, Stormsurge, Y'vahra, or even the R'varna take constant damage so stims (or shields in SS case) are very very well spent points.
I'd run them on Hazards too if they didnt cost 25pts for some god awful reason. Why would i pay equal points for FNP instead of a 4++?
ive actually yet to have that happen. Things in melee that can splat them are pretty obvious and usually easy to avoid, and i havent faced any S10 shooting except WK cheese that i wasnt able to remove from the the table before running out of Holophotons.
BoomWolf wrote: Am I the only one still having railguns running around!?
Pretty much sadly. Although I did witness a game yesterday where I watched an imperial knight charge a pair of railsides, who proceeded to take 4 hull points off the thing in overwatch, thus killing it (as it only had 4 HP left)
They had a single 4 man pathfinder squad helping out. 1 markerlight hit
They use the markerlight to become BS 2. Twin-linked nets 3 hits out of 4 dice
For the armor pen rolls, they get a 5 and a 6 (glance and a pen)
Knight shield saves the glance but the pen goes through.
For the pen roll, it's a 6, netting d3 additional hull points (3 in this case)
Personally I do not run stim injectors. I use 2 riptides with IA and they are usually far enough back that they survive without them. Rather spend that 70 points on more marker lights
Game one: I fought a list of FIVE Hive Tyrants, 2 Harpy's a Ripper Swarm and some few Mucolid Swarms. I have to say, I have never faced that much accurate high STR shooting from a Tyranid list, ever. He swooped all over the board and just unloaded on me round after relentless round. making matters worse was that my StormSurge was the only thing with anti-air ability and so I could already tell this game was going to be trouble. He killed THAT within a couple of rounds because it needed to die for him to live. Nonetheless, I stood my ground. The Gunfort protected me to the extent it could and I got lucky and blocked his Tyranid Nova power the one time it got into a PERFECT firing position to hit a ton of my units all at once.
I deployed everything in and around the Gunforts for this battle but had my StormSurge split out wide, smaller Fire Warrior squads and Crisis Teams in reserve. I did make one bone headed move during the game and charged a Mucolid Spore with a Crisis suit. Duh. Found out that is a stupid thing to do.
Despite all the firepower he had, I was dropping a flyer a round basically and always the one that COULD alight to the ground the next round to cause me Maelstrom worries. One of his harpys resisted the call to the grave quite a while and did a lot of damage before finally succumbing in the final round.
The result was a Tau Empire victory. The key was the short range of his shooting which allowed me to concentrate a heck of a lot of shots into him and frankly, going to ground was hardly an impediment to my chances given that I was hitting on 6's anyways!
Game two:
The second game was against literally the perfect army to kill mine,. He had an IG Artillery battery, using the new formation. For those who don't know, that formation is truly fearsome, allowing them to get an order to Ignore Cover! Wowa. His Manticore, Basilsik and 2 Eradicators ALL could take out my tightly grouped units in the confines of the Tidewall Gun Fort and laugh heartily at any effort to get a save. In one round, he could have cleared out the entire Gunfort and then some. Needless to say, this was daunting. The terrain set up well for him also: big LOS blocker in the middle made his barrages perfect weapons, and crossing the distances was unlikely to be a good idea. he also had the tank with the heavy duty tank killing gun and even had masters of ordinance in his Chimera to fire!
My solution? Null Deployment. The Gunfort just sat there and had to be empty. The Stormsurge was the only unit on the board, and because of the LOS blocker and the handy building his techpriest fortified, his artillery was sitting pretty, ready to fire a mile away at my Stormsurge with impunity, waiting with baited breath for my squishies to show up.
The Stormsurge without Markerlight support is a bit challenged but it ran up the right flank after being shot up and pretty much chose not to do any shooting of its own. Enemy shot it again because what choice was there, and this time scored some blows, doing three wounds to it. In response it tore two tanks apart, one with shooting to its side arc, one with its bare hands. Kaboom. Meanwhile my units poured on, all but the Sniper Drones and scrambled their way to stretch themselves apart in preparation for he next unforgiving barrage, but firing way downtown to stun an Eradicator which was a very important thing to do. Come the clouds did, raining death on Aunva's unit and the Fire Warriors as well as the Gunfort itself which took a wound to one of its guns. Pask and his Punisher buddy pushed upfield to get into range of the StormSurge and opened fire, dropping the StormSurge to just two wounds. Because of the angles, he had to gamble and get closer than I think he wished he had later. Killing the StormSurge would have been a coup so he tried.
The StormSurge visited misfortune on Pask and his squadron mate, obliterating both with D-Missiles now guided by Markerlights nd then Stomp'd the other as he had done basically to the last two. Fire Warriors downed the Last Eradicator using their gunfort and a Deep Striking Crisis tema presented a new threat, glancing one of the artillry pieces and threatening to charge the following round. His command squad and its chimra turned around and shot it, but only managed one wound. the Hydra fired at it also but mostly snap firing so it survived. The other Crisis team Landed behind Pasks team but had little to do except prepare to get charged by the Engineseer that was left which had been trailing Pask. Fire warriors streaked up the left flank since coming on turn two and prepared to strike at the Hydra.
Given little choice the Hydra spent its turn killing the Crisis team while the artillery tried to end the Stormsurge but they failed. all but the Chimera and an Enginseer in the ruins was destroyed.
The Chimera shot and killed the StormSurge, and that was pretty well the end of the game other than the enginseer continuing to go at it and eventualy getting punched in the face for his efforts. Siper Drones had crawled around the center of the field to try and get shots and were spread out quite a ways by this time.
Ultimately the game ended with his Command group and Chimers looking at my Crisis suit with vengeful eyes and nothing else on the board. His sole kills were the Crisis Suit and my StormSurge in the end, plus Fire Warriors that eventually EMP'd the Hydra. i think its hilarious that they made it all the way from reserves to the other side of the board and killed a Hydra. Hilarious.
Game Three: Third game was tough. Yet ANOTHER Necron Decurion, this time with FIFTEEN of those Ignores Cover STR 6 blasts. I made a huge miscalculation in forgetting that they WERE Ignores cover. As a necron player aso I sort of knew this was possible but for some reason, I mis-remembered and thought that this was a function of a certain gun, not the Nebuloscope. he "Reminded" me of the reality by blasting apart my Sniper Drone team in round one, laving it almost a husk of its former self. For an encore in round two (of you've seen a Gunfort, you will recall that its nice round interior is a PERFECT killing ground for such weapons) he slaughtered all but one Fire Warrior in one unit and ALL of them in another. Clearly this was a bit of a shock! I really took it to the face the first couple rounds and he DID NOT MISS much at all, easily cresting 30+ hits with every unit against which I frankly had little defense. Despite the brutal "reminder", the Tau empire is not without its own compelling arguments. The Twin Linked large blasts of my own over the course of two rounds made an impact along with the Fire Warrior shooting (before being killed like cattle). He lost three Wraiths quickly as well, and a timely deep Strike by a Crisis team RIGHT in the middle of their units helped a little too. With all those in mind, we were able to obliterate the units of bikes. The StormSurge dropping its Pylons went off, firing a ton o fun. With the enemy now sort of pinned back a bit and unlikely to charge the Tau Empire, we pressed our advantage by floating its platform forward and lifting the Pylons up so the StormSurge could advance!
Advancing on the enemy proved pivotal as my second Crisis team managed to land in his backyard to take maelstrom points and he was forced to deal with it. that left the StormSurge free to strike and strike hard at the remaining Warlord and his now Wraith-like retinue who were holding the seized Relic. with Firepower aplenty, the fearsome Stormsurge crested the corner and between it and the Railguns, finished the Wraiths holding the relic, saving the day.
Final outcome: Tau Empire victory.
Key takeaways: people are taking a LOT more notice of weapon systems that ignore cover. I saw all kinds of evidence of it today and this will DEFINITELY underscore the need to think about your deployment strategy. i kind of foolishly relied too heavily on the Gunfort to protect me when i could have properly spaced myself against his army and used circular deployment to utterly mitigate his strongest suit. The promise of protection and my grave miscalculation of the Necron Jetbikes could have cost me the game and almost did. Minus that error, it would have been a complete rout of the Decurion from beginning to end with a LOT more pain inflicted a lot faster on them.
Another take away was that the IG artillery formation is going to REALLY return some lustre to the codex. Anyone playing that army without the Formation may wish to consider using it.
From the Tau perspective one more thing occurred to me. in ALL my games, especially the Tyranid one, there would have been GREAT virtue in the TideWall Rampart. that MANY cover saves bounced back at Flyers is a pretty effective anti-air measure. Consider that those guys were hitting 55 times a round on the average when all were alive which is 46 wounds. In that engagement, that would have meant about 6 bunced shots a round at STR 6! Beleive me, six extra hits and chances to knock one out is a big deal when you're talking about 7 flyers at 1500 points and only one unit to deal with them that died bfore it could fire twice! I imagine that usefulness would grow at 1850.
It only came up when i fired at aerial stuff. So it worked fine. I mean when there are seven flyers...what else do you have to shoot? Lol.
Also to be more accurate, you choose at the beginning of the phase and i think all your shots are indeed skyfire if you choose to do that but you dont actually have to fire at aerial/skimmer targets. It presented no special issues. Just more utility.
I definitely think the Stormsurge should probably not be used as your AA platform if it can be avoided. Only mention this because the only real weapons that can target the Flyers are the different missile systems and depending on if you take the Burst Cannon or not. Granted this would be great against a lot of Xenos Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures yet against the more common Imperial Flyers you will struggle as you won't be able to get through their armor 12.
i always find that relic to be too pricy for an essentially one time use (since it has a pretty good chance to go away or a small chance to not work at all).
Also, VT on a stormsurge? why do people put that on him? VT doesnt give you per weapon skyfire, you elect to have the Skyfire rule or not at the start of the shooting phase. Unless theres a skimmer floating around, that means if you use the VT the SS's main gun cannot be used. Maaaassive self-nerf there. All weapons have skyfire or none of them do, Skimmers are the only thing he can still shoot at with the blasts if he activates Skyfire.
gmaleron wrote: I definitely think the Stormsurge should probably not be used as your AA platform if it can be avoided. Only mention this because the only real weapons that can target the Flyers are the different missile systems and depending on if you take the Burst Cannon or not. Granted this would be great against a lot of Xenos Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures yet against the more common Imperial Flyers you will struggle as you won't be able to get through their armor 12.
The Stormsurge isn't a true AA "answer". I think we can all agree that in my list, there really ISN'T an AA answer. Having said that I have seen what happens when you allow a force multiplier like Belakor or a Nurgle Flying Daemon Prince to run rampant. You only need him to kill the force multipliers. And that is really the utility I want him for. Having Zero answers to those force multipliers is bad policy. 20 points in a 1500 point list to give me a shot at those is, needless to say, important.
SEVEN flying Monstrous Creatures was an EXTREME list that drop kicked the other opponents it faced. "ignoring flyers" is a fun thing to say on the Internet but that one list illustrates what's possible and even a list labeled Tyranids can whoop your ass if you give no respect at all to that.
The main thing to read in the battle reports I posted above is that it worked. I was undefeated despite my miscalculation against the Decurion (be assured I will be sharply aware of that in the future and they will find me a far less kind opponent moving forward). The army has good utility. it can handle alpha striking Battle Companies (that was my last practice game bfore the Tournament actually), Eldar battle hosts, and it does it elegantly with volume of fire, utility and as usual the chemistry between the units.
I was EXTREMELY concerned however going in because the version of the list you see above is actually not the most recent version. I learned through experimentation that there are a couple of things I could improve in the list, which aren't reflected here. I was in a hurry and printed the wrong list and so instead or rewriting five army lists on the spot, I just went with it.
The newer version has one of the Crisis suits becoming an Irridium Bodyguard with the Onager Gauntlet. This would have helped me in every single game I had at the tournament. The concept is simple enough: I wanted something I could drop on objectives or to line break etc, and the Iridium bodyguard proved both remarkably resilient but also a drain on the enemy resources. Plus in practice games it had donkey punched things to death which was quite handy. I want to experiment more with this concept. Monat Bodyguards like that can take a toll far in excess of their points. As it was my little 37 point gems did a great job (except the bozo who charged the Mucolid Spore..that uh...yeah. Don't do that).
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Vineheart01 wrote: i always find that relic to be too pricy for an essentially one time use (since it has a pretty good chance to go away or a small chance to not work at all).
Also, VT on a stormsurge? why do people put that on him? VT doesnt give you per weapon skyfire, you elect to have the Skyfire rule or not at the start of the shooting phase. Unless theres a skimmer floating around, that means if you use the VT the SS's main gun cannot be used. Maaaassive self-nerf there. All weapons have skyfire or none of them do, Skimmers are the only thing he can still shoot at with the blasts if he activates Skyfire.
Did you read the list? I am using the variable distance cannon and if you get close enough you can fire its D weapon. I dont pay forthe upgunned cannon. I have likd the results of a mobile Stormsurge. The enemy typically wants to be close to me and my movement combines to create some pretty good opportunities to knock them out. If you only use the more expensive gun, sure. I don't.
I noticed you took Aun'va in your list. Did he really contribute at all? I am genuinely curious, as internet wisdom (I use the term loosely) says he's really bad.
ZergSmasher wrote: I noticed you took Aun'va in your list. Did he really contribute at all? I am genuinely curious, as internet wisdom (I use the term loosely) says he's really bad.
He contributed heavily. In the first game, as you can imagine, he was trying to force morale checks as often as he could, given that I wasn't dying nearly as fast as he'd have liked. Aun'Va protected me from it, allowing me to be LD 10 and re-rolling. he also was why my forces had enough volume to take down an FMC a round and his FnP bubble saved a couple guys, so yeah. Very impactful there.
In the second game, he didn't help as much because i Null Deployed. This was obviously due to the ridiculously perfect match up for my opponent. He simply had exactly the right army to smash my face in and I couldn't allow that to happen. So in that game, Aun'Va was not impactful, but then almost none of my Fire Warriors nor Sniper Drones even shot anything all game, literally. The StormSurge and Crisis teams and a charging Fire Warrior Squad contributed most of the offense. it wasn't awesome but it got the job done. That was a corner case where NO leader would have mattered so i mean... There's that. One thing I will point out is that he target'd Aun'Va with blasts in two different rounds and thanks to his bodyguard, he lived and maintained the Warlord point, so in that sense taking him over another Ethereal paid off twice.
In the third game i described above, Aun'Va definitely shined again. In that one he tried to take Aun'Va out along with the surrounding units and Aun'Va's Paradox of duality saved him repeatedly. I only ever lost one Ethereal Guard when it was said and done. But here again I was facing the Decurion and they don't die. His bks were getting 3+ saves AND a 4+ Re-animation protocol. So without him i would have been a goner. The Decurion also forced many morale checks in the first couple round so having an Ethereal mattered, but the 6+ FnP saved two Firesight Marksman and that was HUGE in this list because I start with very few (9) and 4 of them are inaccurate. So maintaining the Markerlights that hit on 2's so the Stormsurge could do work proved very important. A normal Ethereal would have given me the shots but not the 6+ FnP. Also the Ethereal would have been dead since he would have had no ablative wounds and STR 6 blasts just end Ethereals, especially those who lack the Paradox.
There is no end to the praise I can heap on Aun'Va. You pay so little to get so much. The internet is simply...wrong, when it comes to Aun'Va.
How did you keep him alive? or did you manage to have LoS in a convenient place to hide him?
I run Ethereal lists fairly often but i usually stay away from Aun'va purely because hes really, really damn hard to keep alive due to not being an IC and any crap-AP gun bypasses his "uber fnp".
One of the models i want to run just because of who he is. But the few times ive ran him he dies immediately to barrage weapons or bolters via droppods etc etc. I keep my normal ethereals alive via devilfish shenanigans (unlike ork KFF, his bubble is not ceased because hes in a vehicle ) Or am i completely missing something that makes him pretty resilient?
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, he sounds pretty cool, and his model is awesome! Maybe I'll have to get him someday. Thanks for explaining!
Yip. Aun'Va has ben a part of my lists for a pretty long time, stretching all the way back to 5E. It is true that he MIGHT someday give up his extra VP and that MIGHT prove to be importnt. One cannot say that this will not happen. Having said that... It's been extremely rare and it is a chance I am fully prepared to take.
In list building for Tau Empire, I have taken the point of view that you should never look at what a unit costs to determine whether or not to take it. You need to look at what it can DO for you and bottom line, you need what you need.
So the army needs a force multiplier like Aun'Va because it lacks anti-air but can make up for it through volume. It needs anti-tank, and it gets that through the Gunfort. it needs help against Skyhammer, because assaulting from Deep Strike is crazy and without Supporting fire, we would do zero in melee, ever. We need EMP, because when a Battle Company shows up with free Rhinos, you need to go CHARGE those free rhinos! and when you're charging Rhinos, likelihood is, there will be return fire from the guys who were in them. And they wont be happy to see you, but no one asked them for an opinion so that's cool.
Aun'va will make you stubborn if you're forced to stand out there like that scene in V, the Final Battle where he's desperately shooting a pistol at an oncoming ship, Patton style.
Aun'Va also has killed trukk boy squads before. his buddies DO carry honor blades so i mean... Hardly a terrible shot at impacting the game at short range.
Lots of reasons you want Aun'Va.
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Vineheart01 wrote: How did you keep him alive? or did you manage to have LoS in a convenient place to hide him?
I run Ethereal lists fairly often but i usually stay away from Aun'va purely because hes really, really damn hard to keep alive due to not being an IC and any crap-AP gun bypasses his "uber fnp".
One of the models i want to run just because of who he is. But the few times ive ran him he dies immediately to barrage weapons or bolters via droppods etc etc. I keep my normal ethereals alive via devilfish shenanigans (unlike ork KFF, his bubble is not ceased because hes in a vehicle )
Or am i completely missing something that makes him pretty resilient?
Again, did you look at the list? I had a Gunfort. Aun'Va was behind the Gunfort at all times. Keeping him safe was a simple matter in game one. in Game two he did the same albeit obviously barrages didnt care and did kill his Ethereal Guard. But then, thats what they are for. and in the third game it was a matter of ranges as much as anything that kept him safe for the parts of the fusilade that involved him.
The Necron player had a Veil of Darkness so I stukc both fve man Fire Warrior Sqauds to the side I knew he would try to drop in and took up lots of space. He made the drop attempt anyway and mishap'd along with some of his bikers, which ultimately allowed me to put them behind a building where they could see nothing. So I kinda made it hard on the Decurion to try for the assassination attempt, though it didnt deter him from trying of course.
I'm thinking it might be the quality of your opponents, because if it were my GK list you were facing, your Etheral would be dead on turn 1, along with every other model that's not a battlesuit.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I'm thinking it might be the quality of your opponents, because if it were my GK list you were facing, your Etheral would be dead on turn 1, along with every other model that's not a battlesuit.
SJ
Yeah, no.
You remind me of a girl that played at the tournament. She brought her list of DreadKnight doom and ultimate Skyhammer coolness. Flat told my friend he would be gone in turn one after seeing him deploy since most of his units were off the board to start the game. Amusing. As you might expect, her precognition was not rewarded and my friends plan was. Good list though. She plays Sean Morgan all the time so she can play.
Underestimating people is not smart. I'm sure the guy with a hundred ignores cover templates thought the same as you. Literally Perfect for destroying me. i am sure the guy with indestructible Necrons thought so. Almost nothing I had breaks 3+ armor. Just a few shots a round. I'm sure my opponent who could hit reliably 55 times at STR 6 per round, plus his Harpys,thought so too. And yet...
You remind me of a girl that played at the tournament. She brought her list of DreadKnight doom and ultimate Skyhammer coolness. Flat told my friend he would be gone in turn one after seeing him deploy since most of his units were off the board to start the game. Amusing. As you might expect, her precognition was not rewarded and my friends plan was. Good list though. She plays Sean Morgan all the time so she can play.
Underestimating people is not smart. I'm sure the guy with a hundred ignores cover templates thought the same as you. Literally Perfect for destroying me. i am sure the guy with indestructible Necrons thought so. Almost nothing I had breaks 3+ armor. Just a few shots a round. I'm sure my opponent who could hit reliably 55 times at STR 6 per round, plus his Harpys,thought so too. And yet...
Underestimating people is a bad way to go.
So real quick, I don't think anyone is saying that your list is bad, I think people are just saying that while you may have had success with some of the options you chose in your meta; In their experiences they would not have had the same success with it.
As for Aun'Va, I have never used him, but I can see where he could be a liability given the extra VPs and not joining units. Since I don't play a gunline style list, he is useless for me personally =)
jeffersonian000 wrote: I'm thinking it might be the quality of your opponents, because if it were my GK list you were facing, your Etheral would be dead on turn 1, along with every other model that's not a battlesuit.
SJ
Yeah, no.
You remind me of a girl that played at the tournament. She brought her list of DreadKnight doom and ultimate Skyhammer coolness. Flat told my friend he would be gone in turn one after seeing him deploy since most of his units were off the board to start the game. Amusing. As you might expect, her precognition was not rewarded and my friends plan was. Good list though. She plays Sean Morgan all the time so she can play.
Underestimating people is not smart. I'm sure the guy with a hundred ignores cover templates thought the same as you. Literally Perfect for destroying me. i am sure the guy with indestructible Necrons thought so. Almost nothing I had breaks 3+ armor. Just a few shots a round. I'm sure my opponent who could hit reliably 55 times at STR 6 per round, plus his Harpys,thought so too. And yet...
Underestimating people is a bad way to go.
While his point is bluntly stated, it is somewhat true. The Tyranid player did you great favors by focusing on the SS. He should have ignored it. Without Markerlight support, it is not scary in the slightest to the Flyrants. Your marker drones and sniper team should have been dead the first turn with that quantity of firepower.
Back on Tau Tactics though. A battle report from the field!
2000 points FSE vs. Blackmane's Drop Pod Assault (new wolf formation); Maelstrom spoils of war; 6 turns; Wolf Victory 15-12
Opponent ran 9 drop pods of which had 30 shooty wolfs and 40 CC wolfs, a multimelta dev squad, and some stupid good warlord that gives bubble of preferred enemy and what not.
We may have lost the battle, but the Space Wolf pride will never recover, as one of their brothers was slain by a drone....
In all seriousness though, this was a tough game for both of us. He had just so many units that dropped in turn 1 that he had immediate board control wrapping the entire deployment zone. My strategy of stacking objectives on a table edge paid off as I got to pick deployment zones (selecting the non objective side); Which forced my opponent to either drop on objectives, or drop on me, which limits his future movement ALOT.
Like to say even with ITC FAQ, firestream was amazing.. they easily made their points back in sheer board control alone.. With so many pods among the terrain it was easy to block off movement with squads of 2 drones, that he had to blast through to then get to other units. The seeker missles were ok, I lost a piranha turn 1 so I only ever had a total of 6 at one time, they mainly took out some key marines or a drop pod here or there. The drone themselves easily made back the formations points.
Speaking of drones, the drone net is an auto include for me now, it was soo good.. bs3 mobile markerlights is amazing. and +1 BS of all my firestream drones was really really good.
Ghostkeel wing stealth field definitely saved piranha turn 1, there is no doubt about that. EWO knocked out a good sized unit of shooty wolfs, but he had just an overwhelming number of marines in my face that no amount of EWO mattered. They had a short life in this game as they were immediate targets (which was my choosing.. sorta).
So to the good stuff...
Turn 1 I had 2nd turn. He dropped his entire army on the table, only leaving a wolf pack outflanking. He had a unit of about 10 Thunderwolves and wolf leader on the board. As many stated on the forum, their shooting wasn't that bad, his entire army shooting me and I only lost 1 piranha. Cool! So my turn came around, I had the firestream drop their drones and blockade as best i could. The ghost having used all their weapons in EWO (with some intercepting marker drones).. I elected to charge a unit of wolfs.. now that seems crazy.. but what I counted on and did happen.. was he elected to counter charge nearby units.. So now my 3 ghostkeel were tied up with about 25 wolves (not all charging so not as many attacks, 15 countered). I lost a couple drones but I stuck in combat from killing off the same amount of marines (that t5 was a savior).
Turn 2 His thunderwolves charged ahead and got into combat with my ghostkeel. Shooting was meh, He had to waste shooting squads of drones just to open up lanes to move through. I lost 2 ghostkeel in this assault phase, the thunderwolves annihilated one squad, and lost another to another unit. Fortunately my third stuck around! So my turn, all my reinforcements came in.. all except 1 unit of marker drones. I was nervous deepstriking without beacons, but there was enough space thanks to weapon range to safely drop my broadsides and the rest. Shooting was ok for me.. I wiped out his 10 muts that had outflanked.. My riptide nova'd 4d6 (as to not get charged by wolves after scattering 12" to them), and then wiffed shooting (typical). burst suits scattered also towards his thunderwolves and i wiped out 3 of his multimelta devs (his warlord tanked a ton of shots too). This was neccessary. a 24" s8 ap1 bubble is nothing to sneeze at.. Over all .. ok shooting.. nothing crazy. Oh and ghostkeel died lol.
Turn 3 His thunderwolves charged a burst crisis team, and they died. His other wolves charged my other burst crisis team and they died.. most of my firestream drones are dead now, he had to start regrouping as my main force (broads, plasma crisis, riptide) were on the other table edge. My turn, firestream came back.. and dropped drones. I knew I had to take out the thunderwolves this turn (DOOM), and with broads, and all the seeker missles, and gun drones managed to take them out (minus his battle leader who failed morale and ran). moved drones around to again block movement. OH and riptide wiffed again.. bs6 i rolled 12.. ugh
Turn 4 He started regrouping as I forced his movement based on drone placement.. he had to take a few objectives which kept him from running everything, but he ran alot.. not a ton of shooting this turn for him. As for me.. i drew both FSE assault cards this turn.. of which I had a plasma suit and my warlord (who left his unit) charge a droppod to get me the 2 unit charging, and destroying the same unit that turn.. which should have gotten me like 4 points, but i rolled so bad (every d3 i rolled a 1 for this game) =/ As for shooting, i finished off his wolf gaurd leader.. and starting widdling down some other units.. with 10 markerlights (i rolled really high) on a squad of 10 marines and his warlord, I used brought my riptide up to BS10, which was good cause i rolled gets hot first and needed that reroll ha. I then still scattered an inch.. like really.. but managed to take out 7 marines. Widdled down the rest just leaving his warlord again.. what a pain that guy. did some more movement trying to force his army away from my broadsides and riptide.
Turn 5 He charged my warlord and plasma suit with about 20 marines.. i challenged his warlord, lost 2 drones and my crisis suit. warlord tanked about 7 wounds from the marines. His warlord did 1 wound to my commander. I then rolled 3 of 4 hits on his warlord, and was ready to slay him with ID (s8), but rolled three 1s to wound.. like are you kidding me... and of course didn't blind him. My turn, just trying to scrape objectives.. piranha came back and had some crazy movement, plus hopeful shooting to claim some objectives. My commander in assault again, Tanks everything leaving him with 1 wound.. and of course 3 attacks and i miss all of them ... sigh... but hey he is holding 3 squads of wolfs on him .. so kudos commander, kudos.
Turn 6 Same old.. not much going on.. he isn't near any objectives so he is chasing drones, and finally finishes off my commander, it literally came down to me failing my last wound to save.. it was kinda epic haha. This was a crazy turn for me... i drew 2 cards that were hard, but could win me the game. I had to kill 3 or more units for d3 in shooing, and kill 3 units by end turn for d3... So with some crazy shooting placement, I had everything planned... i had to kill a marine squad of 6, a marine squad of 2, a droppod, and i had a backup squad of 2 marines. First 2 gun drones killed the first 2 marine squad... YESSSS. Then 4 seeker missles did not kill a drop pod.. OH NO.. I had to use broadsides which split fire killed the pod and killed 2 of 3 marines.. OH NO... Fortunately I had a gun drone finish off the last guy.. phew... two units down. I then had my riptide not get hot... scatter only a few inches.. but still managing to killing 4 marines, fusion killed another leaving 1... UGH.. so can't get my d3 shooting objective.. annoyed... But, my riptide charged the last marine hammer was saved.. 4 attacks, only 1 hit.. oh no!!! and what did I roll guys???? a ONE... a freaking one.... that was pretty much my game in a nut shell..
Game ended.. wow.. what a game.. it was a slaughter all over, so much died.. really close game considering. He got first blood and warlord kill, so without that the game was 13-12 in maelstrom points so that was pretty darn close!!!
jeffersonian000 wrote: I'm thinking it might be the quality of your opponents, because if it were my GK list you were facing, your Etheral would be dead on turn 1, along with every other model that's not a battlesuit.
SJ
Yeah, no.
You remind me of a girl that played at the tournament. She brought her list of DreadKnight doom and ultimate Skyhammer coolness. Flat told my friend he would be gone in turn one after seeing him deploy since most of his units were off the board to start the game. Amusing. As you might expect, her precognition was not rewarded and my friends plan was. Good list though. She plays Sean Morgan all the time so she can play.
Underestimating people is not smart. I'm sure the guy with a hundred ignores cover templates thought the same as you. Literally Perfect for destroying me. i am sure the guy with indestructible Necrons thought so. Almost nothing I had breaks 3+ armor. Just a few shots a round. I'm sure my opponent who could hit reliably 55 times at STR 6 per round, plus his Harpys,thought so too. And yet...
Underestimating people is a bad way to go.
I wasn't boasting, just stating a simple truth. Your opponents' seem to focus on the wrong targets, which inflates your perception that your softer units are adequately protected, or untargetable. Good tactics versus Tau is always to kill soft targets first while ignoring hard targets until later. This means focusing on the 4+ save or worse units first with as much save ignoring firepower as can be brought to bear. The GK list I run is designed to win Maelstrom, which means it can kill off units like your Etheral, because you would be rolling 20+ saves versus bolter and Incinerator fire. And that is just from one Shunting unit. In order to defeat such an alpha strike, you would have to castle up with an intense level of bubble wrap, which again would give a player like me full run of the table while bunching your units up for easy pickings.
There is a reason why your set up works for you, and that is because of your local meta. Your list is built to defeat your local opponents, who per your own description play a much lower level of game than many on this forum are use to seeing.
You remind me of a girl that played at the tournament. She brought her list of DreadKnight doom and ultimate Skyhammer coolness. Flat told my friend he would be gone in turn one after seeing him deploy since most of his units were off the board to start the game. Amusing. As you might expect, her precognition was not rewarded and my friends plan was. Good list though. She plays Sean Morgan all the time so she can play.
Underestimating people is not smart. I'm sure the guy with a hundred ignores cover templates thought the same as you. Literally Perfect for destroying me. i am sure the guy with indestructible Necrons thought so. Almost nothing I had breaks 3+ armor. Just a few shots a round. I'm sure my opponent who could hit reliably 55 times at STR 6 per round, plus his Harpys,thought so too. And yet...
Underestimating people is a bad way to go.
So real quick, I don't think anyone is saying that your list is bad, I think people are just saying that while you may have had success with some of the options you chose in your meta; In their experiences they would not have had the same success with it.
As for Aun'Va, I have never used him, but I can see where he could be a liability given the extra VPs and not joining units. Since I don't play a gunline style list, he is useless for me personally =)
But even in that report, Aun'Va is there. Listen to my opponents comments about him after the game. Aun'Va works because he works. Not because of some magical thing about the thirty people who showed up to play Saturday.
If you don't want to use him, don't. But he had a seriously positive impact in all three games and most importantly, was not killed, despite the pie platers that ignored cover, the Deep Striking Necron shenanigans that tries and the FMC spam. It just factually never seems to happen. I've lost a game BECAUSE of the ethereal point maybe once? That one Maelstrom point or whatever is rarely going to be enugh to matter given all the good he does.
But even in that report, Aun'Va is there. Listen to my opponents comments about him after the game. Aun'Va works because he works. Not because of some magical thing about the thirty people who showed up to play Saturday.
If you don't want to use him, don't. But he had a seriously positive impact in all three games and most importantly, was not killed, despite the pie platers that ignored cover, the Deep Striking Necron shenanigans that tries and the FMC spam. It just factually never seems to happen. I've lost a game BECAUSE of the ethereal point maybe once? That one Maelstrom point or whatever is rarely going to be enugh to matter given all the good he does.
How many points is he? The battle report I just posted, i would like to say I failed about 7 leadership checks over the course of the game. As I am not 100% familier cause I never use him. Would Aun'va allow me to use his LD10 rolling for assault leadership results? and further let me reroll this?
That would actually be very interesting to consider in my lists, as I tend to fail leaderships all the time..
How does that work for psychic shriek and other leadership based abilities? Are these using Aun'Va or the units LD value? Does Aun'Va have to be the warlord to gain these leadership abillities?
How many points is he? The battle report I just posted, i would like to say I failed about 7 leadership checks over the course of the game. As I am not 100% familier cause I never use him. Would Aun'va allow me to use his LD10 rolling for assault leadership results? and further let me reroll this?
That would actually be very interesting to consider in my lists, as I tend to fail leaderships all the time..
How does that work for psychic shriek and other leadership based abilities? Are these using Aun'Va or the units LD value? Does Aun'Va have to be the warlord to gain these leadership abillities?
Yes, you use his LD for Morale, Pinning and so on if within 12". You re-roll army wide no matter where with him. It isn't going to help on Pstchic Shriek. He is 100 points as it says here. And no, the only thing making him the Warlord gives you is a RIDICULOUSLY good Warlord Trait.
his warlord trait is "one use get up from ground" right? for me that is meh.. but i can see where that would be good though.
Hmm i might proxy him and and see what happens.. the reroll leadership might.. MIGHT be worth it for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The main issue i will have.. is most of his elementals will be for not.. as the majority of my units won't use them or won't be near his 12" bubble anyway..
Grizzyzz wrote: his warlord trait is "one use get up from ground" right? for me that is meh.. but i can see where that would be good though.
Hmm i might proxy him and and see what happens.. the reroll leadership might.. MIGHT be worth it for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The main issue i will have.. is most of his elementals will be for not.. as the majority of my units won't use them or won't be near his 12" bubble anyway..
It depends on your list of course. So i cant tell you whether he's necessary for your list. All I can tell you is that he's good.
And that trait is BRILLIANT. You can play a risky round where you expose yourself and lay into the enemy, then everyone goes to ground no matter the AP of the enemy you're getting saves and then...BOING. Brilliant. Ignores Cover obviously would trump it and that is indeed the situation I had in games 2 nd 3. The opponent had invested a LOT into Necron bikes (unusual, but it got him to top table so i am sure others found it effective also) and the IG guy had invested heavily into laughing at my warlord trait. So yeah its like all Warlord trits: sometimes its just world class good. Sometimes they trump you. But that's why you dont JUST rely on that.
Oh gosh.. could you ignore a shield generator (on a stormsurge) or/and stims on Riptides to offset the cost of a VSG?
Ah just a thought. I play at 1500pts and you can only play with so many toys Otherwise the Drone Net would be amazing, alas I only use 6 drones!
No to both questions.. VSG is static. for the cost of a VSG vs surge you will bet more for your money with the 4++ on the surge itself. As for the riptide.. like i said, VSG is static.. riptide is good because of its mobility.
That warlord trait combines well with the ghostkeel wing, guaranteed one turn of stealth and shrouding effectively for infantry units within the stealth bubble.
Bryan01 wrote: That warlord trait combines well with the ghostkeel wing, guaranteed one turn of stealth and shrouding effectively for infantry units within the stealth bubble.
hmm.. yeah good point.. that could be interesting..
Oh gosh.. could you ignore a shield generator (on a stormsurge) or/and stims on Riptides to offset the cost of a VSG?
Ah just a thought. I play at 1500pts and you can only play with so many toys Otherwise the Drone Net would be amazing, alas I only use 6 drones!
This list was 1500 if you noticed. No way around invul saves, only cover saves. But The Warlord Trait is twice as useful in a Gunfort where I was, because 2+ saves are pretty sweet when you know there's no penalty for taking them for a round.
There is a reason why your set up works for you, and that is because of your local meta. Your list is built to defeat your local opponents, who per your own description play a much lower level of game than many on this forum are use to seeing.
SJ
It works because it works. I had never played any of my opponents before. This had nothing to do with that.
"Meta" isn't even worth talking about in this case anyways. The Portland to Seattle connection sported 8 of the top 40 ITC generals this year that I KNOW. There might be some on that list I don't know and there were certainly a lot of generals who don't even go to ITC events who are equally talented. So let's stow the "meta" talk for another thread where condescension is warranted. This isn't that thread.
Bryan01 wrote: That warlord trait combines well with the ghostkeel wing, guaranteed one turn of stealth and shrouding effectively for infantry units within the stealth bubble.
hmm.. yeah good point.. that could be interesting..
"Meta" means "self-referential", specifically, it's a term that means the circumstances you describe. You described your list, your tactics, and recounted your battles. That is you referencing yourself and the circumstances you faced. That's your local meta. When people refer to your local meta, or the meta of the game, they are refering to the circumstances you face given the information you provide.
My point was that your list worked the way you described it because your opponents played the way you described them as playing. If you had better opponents, your experience shoukd have been different, because the rest of us do not use your unit selection due to the opponents we play against who would beat us handedly if we played your list.
Do you understand what I am saying? Just trying to help.
Regarding the buffmander, is there any reason you would not put all the signature systems on a crisis suit commander and then give the commander the shots. If you attach the commander to a unit of crisis suits.
The issue with not using a commander for the buffmander tactic is loss of IC in case his unit gets shot up. Also, Crisis Suits spend a hardpoint slot for signature systems while commanders and Bodyguards dont.
Also loss of 2+ LoS. Usually hes also a Tankmander when i run him so hes a lot less likely to die even if hes soaking damage, but random S10 shots can still splat iridium suits so 2+ LoS please!
jeffersonian000 wrote: "Meta" means "self-referential", specifically, it's a term that means the circumstances you describe. You described your list, your tactics, and recounted your battles. That is you referencing yourself and the circumstances you faced. That's your local meta. When people refer to your local meta, or the meta of the game, they are refering to the circumstances you face given the information you provide.
My point was that your list worked the way you described it because your opponents played the way you described them as playing. If you had better opponents, your experience shoukd have been different, because the rest of us do not use your unit selection due to the opponents we play against who would beat us handedly if we played your list.
Do you understand what I am saying? Just trying to help.
SJ
I don't mean to speak in his place, but it sounds like he does understand and disagrees with your assessment that his list does well because of his meta.
Though I can't presume to know the whole situation, I am inclined to agree. I was surprised at the amount of success that Jancoran was finding with certain units.
Then again, Lictor shame is a thing, so what do any of us know? I remember like 3 weeks before the tournament, Nayden asked the Tyranid thread what they thought of his list....and everyone (seasoned tournament veterans included) told him it would not be good.
jeffersonian000 wrote: "Meta" means "self-referential", specifically, it's a term that means the circumstances you describe. You described your list, your tactics, and recounted your battles. That is you referencing yourself and the circumstances you faced. That's your local meta. When people refer to your local meta, or the meta of the game, they are refering to the circumstances you face given the information you provide.
My point was that your list worked the way you described it because your opponents played the way you described them as playing. If you had better opponents, your experience shoukd have been different, because the rest of us do not use your unit selection due to the opponents we play against who would beat us handedly if we played your list.
Do you understand what I am saying? Just trying to help.
SJ
I don't mean to speak in his place, but it sounds like he does understand and disagrees with your assessment that his list does well because of his meta.
Though I can't presume to know the whole situation, I am inclined to agree. I was surprised at the amount of success that Jancoran was finding with certain units.
Then again, Lictor shame is a thing, so what do any of us know? I remember like 3 weeks before the tournament, Nayden asked the Tyranid thread what they thought of his list....and everyone (seasoned tournament veterans included) told him it would not be good.
#gogogadgetinternet
A fool is someone who is so smart that he can learn nothing from anyone.
The next time someone tells you something you haven't heard before, thinks something you haven't thought before or sees something you've never viewed before, pay attention. For you are very much in peril of learning something new at that moment.
Philosophy aside, the keyboard allows anyone to say anything, but none of it changes demonstrated results. The same list has defeated Battle Companies, Eldar battle hosts, and Skyhammers. It has taken on thunderwolf Cavalry and it has taken on a War Convocations. I have no worries about it other than that it will have to be torn down for most ITC tournaments which won't allow the Gun Fort. No problem.
SJ's meta allows his GK to feel froggy. That's fine. I won't attack his meta just because they apparently struggle against his GK. Maybe he's just that good. Until he proves it, he really should stop talking about metas though. I don't think that intimations like that change a thing. =) "Must be the Meta" is what people say when they dont actually HAVE a cogent argument.
jeffersonian000 wrote: "Meta" means "self-referential", specifically, it's a term that means the circumstances you describe. You described your list, your tactics, and recounted your battles. That is you referencing yourself and the circumstances you faced. That's your local meta. When people refer to your local meta, or the meta of the game, they are refering to the circumstances you face given the information you provide.
My point was that your list worked the way you described it because your opponents played the way you described them as playing. If you had better opponents, your experience shoukd have been different, because the rest of us do not use your unit selection due to the opponents we play against who would beat us handedly if we played your list.
Do you understand what I am saying? Just trying to help.
SJ
I don't mean to speak in his place, but it sounds like he does understand and disagrees with your assessment that his list does well because of his meta.
Though I can't presume to know the whole situation, I am inclined to agree. I was surprised at the amount of success that Jancoran was finding with certain units.
Then again, Lictor shame is a thing, so what do any of us know? I remember like 3 weeks before the tournament, Nayden asked the Tyranid thread what they thought of his list....and everyone (seasoned tournament veterans included) told him it would not be good.
#gogogadgetinternet
I actually liked Sean's list in that Tyranid Tactica thread. I understood what he was going for.
Btw, I played against Jeremy "the French Overlord's" new Tau list and I must say that it was a handful.
SJ's meta allows his GK to feel froggy. That's fine. I won't attack his meta just because they apparently struggle against his GK. Maybe he's just that good. Until he proves it, he really should stop talking about metas though. I don't think that intimations like that change a thing. =) "Must be the Meta" is what people say when they dont actually HAVE a cogent argument.
I don't know if you are trying to misunderstand, or not, but my point was that it doesn't matter how well you do in a self-reported game, as there is no way anyone can confirm your self-reporting. If you played in a registered tournament with results posted on a publicly accessable website by a third party, then what you self-report can be coaberated. Even if we took you at your word, it still begs that you won not because of some uber-build that uses non-standard units, but that you won because your opponents were not the same caliber as you are. The fact that the presented list can be so easily dismantled points to there having been no challenging opponent.
This is why self-reporting is meaningless. A battle report from one if your opponents would have had more value. No video = no evidence. As such, we can only judge the report on it's contents, which are lacking.
SJ's meta allows his GK to feel froggy. That's fine. I won't attack his meta just because they apparently struggle against his GK. Maybe he's just that good. Until he proves it, he really should stop talking about metas though. I don't think that intimations like that change a thing. =) "Must be the Meta" is what people say when they dont actually HAVE a cogent argument.
I don't know if you are trying to misunderstand, or not, but my point was that it doesn't matter how well you do in a self-reported game, as there is no way anyone can confirm your self-reporting. If you played in a registered tournament with results posted on a publicly accessable website by a third party, then what you self-report can be coaberated. Even if we took you at your word, it still begs that you won not because of some uber-build that uses non-standard units, but that you won because your opponents were not the same caliber as you are. The fact that the presented list can be so easily dismantled points to there having been no challenging opponent.
This is why self-reporting is meaningless. A battle report from one if your opponents would have had more value. No video = no evidence. As such, we can only judge the report on it's contents, which are lacking.
So yes, I'm calling BS on the battle report.
SJ
Um...okay? Lol. It was an ITC tournament so i imagine you wont have much problem finding it being "reported" because as you know ,all those things are easily accessible. Once they post the results there, you will be out of excuses.
I'm not sure I agree. While that list has nowhere near as many poorly-spent points as the list you posted previously, it's still pretty far from optimized. Cadre Fireblades, for example, are just a bad idea. Aun'va sounds fun, but one round of shooting from a unit of 3 scatterbikes is pretty likely to wipe his whole unit in a turn of shooting. Thinking outside the box is great and all, but sometimes there are good reasons why units get shelved.
Still folks, something important to take away here rather than brow-bashing.
Units that are potentially or actually sub-par can be quite effective; surprise opponents, meta-defying options/flexibility... Yeah an opponent could obliterate a weaker model with a poor armour save, I agree that same opponent may understand how to deal with a Centstar or Scat-bikes.. but they may slip up vs. a unorthodox model. These unorthodox units give you different options that could be good (i.e. they just may die easier), and good allows for wins!
Personally, I had great fun with Lictorshame, especially using the Spore-mine formation to force decisions/movement with tiny pt-cost models.
But perhaps rather than saying so and so's meta is soft or bad or his opponents are bad, a productive discussion might be something along the lines of:
"Hey I saw that you were using Unit X, which I personally have found to struggle against tactic A/Weapon B/Army C. How did you overcome those limitations?"
Maybe it's just the result of a small sample size. But maybe someone is on to something. The easiest way to make sure that no one ever learns anything or gets better is to just stick to conventional wisdom and shut down all new ideas.
But perhaps rather than saying so and so's meta is soft or bad or his opponents are bad, a productive discussion might be something along the lines of:
"Hey I saw that you were using Unit X, which I personally have found to struggle against tactic A/Weapon B/Army C. How did you overcome those limitations?"
Maybe it's just the result of a small sample size. But maybe someone is on to something. The easiest way to make sure that no one ever learns anything or gets better is to just stick to conventional wisdom and shut down all new ideas.
But perhaps rather than saying so and so's meta is soft or bad or his opponents are bad, a productive discussion might be something along the lines of:
"Hey I saw that you were using Unit X, which I personally have found to struggle against tactic A/Weapon B/Army C. How did you overcome those limitations?"
Maybe it's just the result of a small sample size. But maybe someone is on to something. The easiest way to make sure that no one ever learns anything or gets better is to just stick to conventional wisdom and shut down all new ideas.
Here's the funny part: If I take some of these netlists, I will supposedly win.
If I take the units I take... I actually win.
This is a Tau tactics thread. i recommend people take all the affirmative results they can find over all these pages and apply them. Or a guy can get onto a tactics thread and ignore all affirmative results. That's also an option. It's just not an option that makes sense.
Follow the
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm not sure I agree. While that list has nowhere near as many poorly-spent points as the list you posted previously, it's still pretty far from optimized. Cadre Fireblades, for example, are just a bad idea. Aun'va sounds fun, but one round of shooting from a unit of 3 scatterbikes is pretty likely to wipe his whole unit in a turn of shooting. Thinking outside the box is great and all, but sometimes there are good reasons why units get shelved.
You think a Cadre Fireblade with Firewarriors on a Gunrig is a bad idea? Their splitfire ability doesn't strike you as perfect for a Gun Fort? You don't like their added markerlight support? Their LD upgrade for the unit instead of wasting it on a Shas'ui doesn't strike you as an added bargain?
I don't really know that i agree.
3 Scatterbikes won't kill aun'Va in all likelihood because they can't see him. If you had played against my list with your Scatter Bikes as one army did, you would learn that the angle to fire on him isn't that easy to find. That isn't to say there isn't the plausible scenario in which it happens. It just means you are overestimating the ease with which it would.
It takes no imagination to say "Don't take Grotesques because of Manticores". But if that's your best argument well.. Same goes for Scatter Bikes and Aun'Va. Shall we never take Rhinos because: Scatter Bikes? No. Shall we never take anything that is AV 10? Shall we never take anything that is lover than T10? At some point it is absurd to say that a Psycannon, STR 7 and all, will both get the angle, the range, hit and wound, overcome cover and Paradox... Come now. It could happen. It has happened. I'm not going to live in fear over it. What he does for me is exceptionally good. I've explained why. I provided a link with yet more thoughts on him.
Do with that what you will or won't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
arthorn wrote: Well provide the link please saying it's itc still gives us lots of options you know exactly how and when.
It's easy to find if you google it so if you lose track of this link later just google it. As for the results, the store has to turn them in and then ITC has to have time to post it but it'll show up there. Just happened on Saturday so I doubt very seriously that it's been posted yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Almost forgot. You can also get on Facebook and check out the Stores page: Olympic Cards and Comics.
I'm fairly obvious in the picture they put up March 5th.
So had to reread the skimmer movement rules and really confused myself lol.. Someone help me out.
Skimmer can move 6" or cruise 12" then in shooting it can flatout another 6"?
Fast skimmer can move 12" or cruise 18", then in shooting flatout another 6" or another 12"?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally I just want to bring something up that is typical GW broken rules...
Coldstar drones.. when he is grounded it states "immediately return to the battlefield within unit coherency".
so Say for this example i have 10 drones.. I ground, and following the rule.. I could drop all the drones in unit coherency to conga line ~20" to this objective that is a little ways away... Just something that came to mind trying to put a list together using coldstars.
Grizzyzz wrote: So had to reread the skimmer movement rules and really confused myself lol.. Someone help me out.
Skimmer can move 6" or cruise 12" then in shooting it can flatout another 6"?
Fast skimmer can move 12" or cruise 18", then in shooting flatout another 6" or another 12"?
it's a heck of a reason to take a hunter cadre if mechanized. and sensor spines
and fast skimmers move at the same rate as normal skimmers, fast just changes the number of weapons that can fire, and how far you move when going flat out.
skimmers, stationary, fire all weapons. move 6", fire one weapon at full BS and the rest at snap fire. Cruising, all snap shots. 6" flat out.
fast skimmers, stationary or 6"move, fire as though stationary. Cruising, one weapon at BS. 18" Flat out.
Grizzyzz wrote: So had to reread the skimmer movement rules and really confused myself lol.. Someone help me out.
Skimmer can move 6" or cruise 12" then in shooting it can flatout another 6"?
Fast skimmer can move 12" or cruise 18", then in shooting flatout another 6" or another 12"?
it's a heck of a reason to take a hunter cadre if mechanized. and sensor spines
and fast skimmers move at the same rate as normal skimmers, fast just changes the number of weapons that can fire, and how far you move when going flat out.
skimmers, stationary, fire all weapons. move 6", fire one weapon at full BS and the rest at snap fire. Cruising, all snap shots. 6" flat out.
fast skimmers, stationary or 6"move, fire as though stationary. Cruising, one weapon at BS. 18" Flat out.
So if i wanted to move a piranha as far as possible.. is that at most 18" ?
Grizzyzz wrote: So if i wanted to move a piranha as far as possible.. is that at most 18" ?
no. 12" in movement, then 18" in shooting (flat out), for a total of a 30" move.
Ahhh ok, excellent! Sometimes I wish the rules would just be explicit and not read page AA, then AB, then refer back to AC, then you need to read this special set of rules... UGH /rant
Grizzyzz wrote: So had to reread the skimmer movement rules and really confused myself lol.. Someone help me out.
Skimmer can move 6" or cruise 12" then in shooting it can flatout another 6"?
Fast skimmer can move 12" or cruise 18", then in shooting flatout another 6" or another 12"?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally I just want to bring something up that is typical GW broken rules...
Coldstar drones.. when he is grounded it states "immediately return to the battlefield within unit coherency".
so Say for this example i have 10 drones.. I ground, and following the rule.. I could drop all the drones in unit coherency to conga line ~20" to this objective that is a little ways away... Just something that came to mind trying to put a list together using coldstars.
THAT is an awesome tactical consideration, though Im not sure he'd have 20 drones? interesting though
I wish the Coldstar could LoS grounding test wounds onto his drones (with the promising but flawed idea is that you place drones, then LoS grounding test wounds) - he would instantly become awesome, IMO. Effectively a 30pt upgrade to a Mark'O squad for some Awesome maneuverability!
Razerous wrote: I wish the Coldstar could LoS grounding test wounds onto his drones (with the promising but flawed idea is that you place drones, then LoS grounding test wounds) - he would instantly become awesome, IMO. Effectively a 30pt upgrade to a Mark'O squad for some Awesome maneuverability!
He just needs to be T5, and most of his issue go away.
Yeah he really does need T5. I fiend one fairly often just because he isnt useless just not that amazing, even though hes fun to mess with. Few times mine dies its due to a random S8+ weapon hitting him, skyfire or not. I actually havent had him epic faceplant yet, the one test hes failed he 4++'d away in about a dozen games.
He isn't wrong though that it can stretch out and snag an objective this way though so while 20 drones isn't going to happen, it's still an interesting point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am curious as to whether people generally like the Ion Head tank?
I am considering a heavily comp'd tournament in July. They pre-rate all lists on a team and they try to get teams that are as evenly matched as possible even to the point of self declaring your strength as a general so that the team captains can consider it if they see a "tough" list but that its being commanded by a self reported lesser general.
Anyways, bringing themed armies is pretty big this year in the scoring. We always have done themed armies and this year we are doing "Tread heads". So we are not allowing anyone on our team to take anything that is not mounted on a vehicle or is not itself a vehicle.
I am probably going to bring Tau Empire (though I am sorely tempted to take the Sisters of Battle who I really enjoy playing on treads) this is what I am thinking for Tau Empire:
BoomWolf wrote: Pre-rating lists seems like sure way to make sure the meta stays stale and nothing new and exiting pops up.
I mean, look at lictor shame at its first appearances-would probably be ranked really low.
Yeah I don't think you quite understand. The variety of lists that show up is quite a bit more plentiful because people aren't min/maxing. The lists are rated 1-4. 4's are simply disallowed and they have to rewrite the list.
So 3 is a tournament army without perhaps the ridiculousness
a 2 is a normal friendly army
A 1 is basically a heavily disadvantaged one.
The goal is to have a 4 person team and your total points cant exceed 8. 4 2's for example or some such.
My personal team has generally tanked our own scores for this tournament to see how well we can do with 1's. I've gone 5-0 with a 1 before so its kind of fun to see what can be done that way. last years theme actually forced me to play a 3, which was the first time I did it.
But this year our theme is Tread heads and so my question, again, is whether I should include some Ion heads into the list instead of all Railguns with Submunitions. Not even so much that as I am curious of what people think opf the Ion head, as I might want to take one or two just to lower my score if indeed people think its a stronger choice. And so on.
so Say for this example i have 10 drones.. I ground, and following the rule.. I could drop all the drones in unit coherency to conga line ~20" to this objective that is a little ways away... Just something that came to mind trying to put a list together using coldstars.
THAT is an awesome tactical consideration, though Im not sure he'd have 20 drones? interesting though
10 drones, 2" coherence.. stretches about 20"
raverrn wrote:It's pretty clear the Coldstar only caddies the two drones that are part of his wargear.
Please stop trying to polish this turd.
Your not helping this thread when you don't know rules. He can join a squad of drones and also have 2 of his own with him.
Cheers!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote: I wish the Coldstar could LoS grounding test wounds onto his drones (with the promising but flawed idea is that you place drones, then LoS grounding test wounds) - he would instantly become awesome, IMO. Effectively a 30pt upgrade to a Mark'O squad for some Awesome maneuverability!
I'm actually confident that you can LoS since you LoS wounds and that effect goes off when you take the grounding wound.
I could see ion heads working okay in the armoured formation. It solves some of their issues. A few markerlights and they wouldn't be terrible at all imo.
I ran a mini crisis star tonight, 6 fse suits, buffmander with tanking gear as well and some ablative drones. Ran the suits with missile pods and target locks. Effectively the unit was like two full broadside teams, except it can move. Kill count was like 8 Razorbacks, three dark angel fighters and 2 squads of 5 tac marines.
So they probably just made their points back as the Razorbacks were free! :p
Your not helping this thread when you don't know rules. He can join a squad of drones and also have 2 of his own with him.
Cheers!
Please note that the proper place to quote rules from is the book in question, not from your butt.
The rule allowing you to remove drones and return them to play specifically references HIS drones - i.e. the ones purchased as wargear.
Edit: Oh, and let's head this thing off at the pass, while I'm pissed.
I'm actually confident that you can LoS since you LoS wounds and that effect goes off when you take the grounding wound.
LoS is triggered when a model is allocated a wound. Models that fail grounding tests are not allocated a wound, and as such aren't allowed LoS rolls no matter what their drones are doing at the time.
Sorry I started that lil tangent - It would be great but sadly isn't to be.
With the updated rules stating (I think?) that both regular and FSE sig systems can be mixed, are there any good ones to include with a Commander in a FSE CAD? I'm assuming the Puretide Engram Chip is gold.
The rule allowing you to remove drones and return them to play specifically references HIS drones - i.e. the ones purchased as wargear.
I think you are correct here, and have no issue stating when I am wrong. You can see where the confusion would arise since a Coldstar can join a unit of drones, forming a unit with him.. so what then, he has 2 drones, joins a unit of drones, and when swoops leaves the non wargear drones on the table (even tho at that moment they are drones in HIS unit?
Edit: Oh, and let's head this thing off at the pass, while I'm pissed.
I'm actually confident that you can LoS since you LoS wounds and that effect goes off when you take the grounding wound.
LoS is triggered when a model is allocated a wound. Models that fail grounding tests are not allocated a wound, and as such aren't allowed LoS rolls no matter what their drones are doing at the time.
This is not that clear. When you are grounded you take a s8 ap2 automatic Wound. Which then on pg 100 it states "when you take a wound (character) you may choose to LoS that on a 4+" (2+ with IC). RAI its clear they want it to be in shooting and assault phases, because of the titles, but that is not explicit in the rule itself.
Alcibiades wrote: I was wondering if anyone has tried out the Allied Advance Cadre and what they think of it. Seems contingent on there being a lot of woods around...
I have not, but once again, GW is trying to push bulk models.. To be effective you have to infest in fairly decent sized units.
Bottom line, you won't see it in competitive games.. I personally don't think it will be good in casual games (outside of fluffy fun) because as you stated, its so dependent on specific cover. I know my FLGS has basically no woods.
This is not that clear. When you are grounded you take a s8 ap2 automatic Wound. Which then on pg 100 it states "when you take a wound (character) you may choose to LoS that on a 4+" (2+ with IC). RAI its clear they want it to be in shooting and assault phases, because of the titles, but that is not explicit in the rule itself.
Your citing half rules. LoS requires the model to be allocated a wound.
When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.
Grounding is not allocation.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed,
So, no you cannot LoS a grounding test. Not to mention, while he is Swooping, his drones are not on the battlefield and he does not become Grounded until after the hit is resolved. So there are no models within 6" to LoS to.
This is not that clear. When you are grounded you take a s8 ap2 automatic Wound. Which then on pg 100 it states "when you take a wound (character) you may choose to LoS that on a 4+" (2+ with IC). RAI its clear they want it to be in shooting and assault phases, because of the titles, but that is not explicit in the rule itself.
Your citing half rules. LoS requires the model to be allocated a wound.
When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.
Grounding is not allocation.
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground – it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed,
So, no you cannot LoS a grounding test. Not to mention, while he is Swooping, his drones are not on the battlefield and he does not become Grounded until after the hit is resolved. So there are no models within 6" to LoS to.
So if a wound is not allocated how can you make an invul save then? If you take any sort of hit or automatic wound.. its still a wound that is allocated to the model..
I don't have my book with me, but when you fail a grounding check from what I remember, you are immediately grounded (which if true would bring the drones back), and by being grounded, you take the hit.
Vineheart01 wrote: if you want high bs sniper shots, take sniper drones. Theyre BS5, 48" rapid fire for dirt cheap and have stealth.
Kroot only have Troop status over them...thats it lol
I just wish they had a plastic kit for them =/ I am guessing you can't make them out of the new drone kits? Can you make anything aside from gun drones out of those kits ?
No idea, i dont know anyone that even NEEDS new drones lol. I have like 30 gun drones lying around without bases just waiting for conversion or proper bases to be gun drones.
Making a sniper drone wouldnt be that hard. Even if you didnt buy any breachers youre bound to have several pulse rifles lying around, just have one center-aligned pulse rifle count as a sniper and give it some fins going backwards from the gun at an angle. Again, something you probably have lying around (i know i do)
The spotter could just be the binocular guy found in hammerhead/skyray kits lol
So if a wound is not allocated how can you make an invul save then? If you take any sort of hit or automatic wound.. its still a wound that is allocated to the model...
"Invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because they may always be taken whenever a model suffers a wound..."Emphasis mine.
Listen, 'Grizzyzz', "Your [sic] not helping this thread when you don't know rules."
So if a wound is not allocated how can you make an invul save then? If you take any sort of hit or automatic wound.. its still a wound that is allocated to the model...
"Invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because they may always be taken whenever a model suffers a wound..."Emphasis mine.
Listen, 'Grizzyzz', "Your [sic] not helping this thread when you don't know rules."
Wow your still salty even tho I said I was wrong and PMd you apologizing for calling you out. Nice..
Moving on.
I think bringing up this question was perfectly valid. Having the option to LoS would greatly benefit cold star.
Checking the brb. A failed grounding test would place him into swooping postion which would place his drones back on the table, whether or not he actually takes the wound, which means if he pops his drones will still be there on the table.
So if a wound is not allocated how can you make an invul save then? If you take any sort of hit or automatic wound.. its still a wound that is allocated to the model...
"Invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because they may always be taken whenever a model suffers a wound..."Emphasis mine.
Listen, 'Grizzyzz', "Your [sic] not helping this thread when you don't know rules."
Wow your still salty even tho I said I was wrong and PMd you apologizing for calling you out. Nice..
Moving on.
I think bringing up this question was perfectly valid. Having the option to LoS would greatly benefit cold star.
Checking the brb. A failed grounding test would place him into swooping postion which would place his drones back on the table, whether or not he actually takes the wound, which means if he pops his drones will still be there on the table.
This is correct, and with regards to LoS, the only stipulation is that the character is that they be hit and wounded, and that a friendly model in their unit is within 6" Therefore it tracks that a grounding test can be LoS to a drone
Doesnt really make him any more competitive. Majority of weapons with skyfire will splat him, thats the biggest issue. Grounding tests causing an epic faceplant of death is just a comical issue thats common enough to pay attention to.
Vineheart01 wrote: Doesnt really make him any more competitive. Majority of weapons with skyfire will splat him, thats the biggest issue. Grounding tests causing an epic faceplant of death is just a comical issue thats common enough to pay attention to.
I completely agree. No top8 list will have him regardless but it's nice to know your options!
So if a wound is not allocated how can you make an invul save then? If you take any sort of hit or automatic wound.. its still a wound that is allocated to the model...
"Invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because they may always be taken whenever a model suffers a wound..."Emphasis mine.
Listen, 'Grizzyzz', "Your [sic] not helping this thread when you don't know rules."
Wow your still salty even tho I said I was wrong and PMd you apologizing for calling you out. Nice..
Moving on.
I think bringing up this question was perfectly valid. Having the option to LoS would greatly benefit cold star.
Checking the brb. A failed grounding test would place him into swooping postion which would place his drones back on the table, whether or not he actually takes the wound, which means if he pops his drones will still be there on the table.
You can take this to YDMC if you like. You take the hit, and then become grounded. Drones come back after the hit is resolved. Regardless, its moot since he cannot LOS that wound away.
So if I take the Stingwings and Kroot and win an ITC event, will someone like them then?
Like lets say there was a tournament coming up REAL soon (and what do you know... there is!)... and I took like 27 Stingwings in my list (incidenetally, I own 27 Sting Wings) and like 40 Kroot, the 6 Kroot Riders I own and the blizzard of Kroot Hounds I own... and win the tournament, would people be pretty jazzed about it then?
Because if so, I am very tempted to do this very thing. Because: Stingwings.
Jancoran wrote: So if I take the Stingwings and Kroot and win an ITC event, will someone like them then?
Like lets say there was a tournament coming up REAL soon (and what do you know... there is!)... and I took like 27 Stingwings in my list (incidenetally, I own 27 Sting Wings) and like 40 Kroot, the 6 Kroot Riders I own and the blizzard of Kroot Hounds I own... and win the tournament, would people be pretty jazzed about it then?
Because if so, I am very tempted to do this very thing. Because: Stingwings.
K. My friend is making me win one with HISIG, because he is despairing pretty hard about them. I told him I'd take them to an actual tournament and try to win and bring back reports to help him envision how best to do it. Once I do that experiment, then I will try to win one this way. While I can readily see the troubles it may have, I am thinking that with a Drone Network, this could actually be doable. Just need to include enough anti-tank goodness to handkle the armor since Kroot can only handle it by coming on the enemy's long table edge behind them (like Snikrot!) and blasting them from behind. One shot at glory with their Rapidfire STR 7 AP 4 guns. Ratta tatta tatta tatta tatta tatta tat.
No we would need more antitank for sure. Drone Network lets us DS Markerlights is and assist, or roam around and do it, with a higher toughness. If points get tight, Pathfinders are far from the worst option since we can arm them with EMP and their Rail Rifles. We can throw Hounds in so we Hit and run at I5 using Command suits? Could be fun. then you have both kroot and Stingwings with HitnRun, coming from all angles and shooting the place up like a saloon.
Hmm...Twin link their LD with Aun'Va as well? Seems legit.
I wonder about taking the Allied Advance Cadre for anti-infantry firepower, then take a Riptide Wing for antitank. If you have the points, add a small CAD with an ethereal, two 5-man firewarrior squads, and a Sky Ray. Not sure if this would work well, but its an idea...
ZergSmasher wrote: I wonder about taking the Allied Advance Cadre for anti-infantry firepower, then take a Riptide Wing for antitank. If you have the points, add a small CAD with an ethereal, two 5-man firewarrior squads, and a Sky Ray. Not sure if this would work well, but its an idea...
Wouldn't the StormSurge make sense for Anti-tank. Super heavies are a thing now. Stompas, Stormlords, Obelisks, you name it. Gotta have an answer to that somewhere...
Riptide wing isnt very amazing at anti-tank. Bursttides can hurt any armor if they pass their nova, which is much more likely in the formation, but its still banking on some luck and they cant cause an explode effect since rending isnt ap2 on vehicles.
Stormsurge firing either of its main guns and the 4 D missiles will kill vehicles better than the riptide wing. Light armor (10-12) is never a problem for tau....literally lol... its the av13-14 thats a problem.
ZergSmasher wrote: I wonder about taking the Allied Advance Cadre for anti-infantry firepower, then take a Riptide Wing for antitank. If you have the points, add a small CAD with an ethereal, two 5-man firewarrior squads, and a Sky Ray. Not sure if this would work well, but its an idea...
Wouldn't the StormSurge make sense for Anti-tank. Super heavies are a thing now. Stompas, Stormlords, Obelisks, you name it. Gotta have an answer to that somewhere...
The problem is with the surge.. your AT threat is the missles.. and they are one shot only, and they need the markerlights to become sD... not saying they are bad.. just saying you can still miss with them and then what do you do? Fusion crisis suits are are best high AV answer. anthing <AV14 can be glanced by our abundant s7 (and if you have tank hunter even more so).>
For really effective AT power (as long as its not Land Raiders or Monoliths you're shooting at), I would say the Optimized Stealth Cadre is probably the way to go. I've tried it out and I love it. Eldar Wave Serpents and their stupid shields? No problem when you're hitting the rear armor. Plus the Ghostkeel is an awesome model IMO.
Vineheart01 wrote: if you want high bs sniper shots, take sniper drones. Theyre BS5, 48" rapid fire for dirt cheap and have stealth.
Kroot only have Troop status over them...thats it lol
Mathematically, in terms of damage output, BS4 sniper Kroot (which are likely BS5 given CF) are superior to BS5 sniper drones within 24", in addition to the fact that you can get 80 such shots in the formation, they have a non-sniper mode of fire (which greatly increases damage output against most things within 12"), can Infiltrate, and have Move Through Cover.
Incidentally, 80 BS4 sniper shots put 6 wounds on a Wraithknight (2/3 x 1/6 x 2/3) x 80
jeffersonian000 wrote: Pretty sure the Surge can Stomp tanks to death, and they can take a D-shotgun since they'll be that close.
SJ
That's true. With the anchors I always see it played with the other cannon. Totally forgot about it. It can move 12" a turn right? That's not too bad. Being t6 your susceptible to more melee threats tho then a WK.
Vineheart01 wrote: if you want high bs sniper shots, take sniper drones. Theyre BS5, 48" rapid fire for dirt cheap and have stealth.
Kroot only have Troop status over them...thats it lol
Mathematically, in terms of damage output, BS4 sniper Kroot (which are likely BS5 given CF) are superior to BS5 sniper drones within 24", in addition to the fact that you can get 80 such shots in the formation, they have a non-sniper mode of fire (which greatly increases damage output against most things within 12"), can Infiltrate, and have Move Through Cover.
Incidentally, 80 BS4 sniper shots put 6 wounds on a Wraithknight (2/3 x 1/6 x 2/3) x 80
Yes, but they also cant move and use that BS4 and are paper. Sniper drones can move and shoot, have the range to not need to move and shoot to begin with, have better armor, and stealth everything instead of stealth "terrain that doesnt exist in almost every game setup"
You bring kroot, people are going to kill them immediately. Not even because of the sniper threat, but because of the easy FB or card kills. Kroot are way too limited.
Yeah i tend not to anchor the Surge. His mobility is a real asset. Killing tanks is no biggee with markerlight support. ITC nerfs do make it less so, but still impressive. Its D-Shotgun is really an unsung hero. Everyone wants to pay an extra 15 points and give it up but why? Surely the mobility shows its importance.
A Stormsurge is excellent horde control as well and doesnt even have to choose a role. It can execute both. So the Surge seems better as a FIRST TAKE than Riptides. Id take Riptides for and purpose but making them THE anti-tank solution? Iffy, am I right?
Jancoran wrote: Yeah i tend not to anchor the Surge. His mobility is a real asset. Killing tanks is no biggee with markerlight support. ITC nerfs do make it less so, but still impressive. Its D-Shotgun is really an unsung hero. Everyone wants to pay an extra 15 points and give it up but why? Surely the mobility shows its importance.
A Stormsurge is excellent horde control as well and doesnt even have to choose a role. It can execute both. So the Surge seems better as a FIRST TAKE than Riptides. Id take Riptides for and purpose but making them THE anti-tank solution? Iffy, am I right?
I think the general thinking for taking the 15 point upgrade is as i said before. Your anchor ability. The D-Shotty is less effective at range and thus if your dropping anchors in the backfield people want to have the range and ability to throw down large pie plates. It ultimately comes down to your play style on this one. I am getting my first stormsurge soon! I am probably going to equip with the D-Shotty myself as my list is constantly hoppping around the map anyway!
Since the ghostkeel have come out.. i have used only 1 riptide, and that has been the requirement for my Retaliation Cadre.. and honestly, if I didn't have to bring it, idk if i would. (not saying they are bad), but so far, I haven't had a ghostkeel not make up his points, whether it be from tanking an army's fire a turn, or wiping out light AV or troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wanted to also report, I had huge success with the Ghostkeel wing last night. We played with a ton of 5+ cover terrain so the stealth bubbles were actually very effective.
Something that also came up that never has in my previous games, was night fighting. Which gives stealth, which means the GKW gives shrouded to your troops instead, this was really good for me, giving most of my troops 2+ cover first turn.
Still running them with CIR and Fusion most of the time, seems to be a nice versatile combination.
I think the main problem with the D shotgun, is the range is so limited.
It's not an actual gun, its a 21" buffer zone. anything that cares for it will just stay out of it's reach. swarms will just move along without a care (at least from that gun), and things that can resist the D will just come maul your face anyway (wolfstar, knights, etc.)
You should never manage to pull off a meaningful D shot with the surge.
with the stormsurge, would you consider it irredeemably TFG-ish to use the Large Blasts in the D-range?
also, I had a rather comical game with the 'sarge: against a swarmlord. Paroxysm to BS 0, then markerlights to BS5, dual D-missiles to kill it. Great fun having a Mark'o with 10 markerlights.
Also, I played the 'sarge as having essentially two 'firing modes' Firing 2 weapons at a single target or each weapon at a different target (minus those fired in EWO or already expended destroyer missiles). How do you folks use it outside ITC?
Funnily enough, my opponent didn't have a problem with that. The problem he had was the Culexus, even after my Mark'o rolled a 1 when they got too close.
carldooley wrote: with the stormsurge, would you consider it irredeemably TFG-ish to use the Large Blasts in the D-range?
Say what? Do you mean use the pulse driver at around ~10" ? or do you mean use the large blast profile of the pulse blastcannon (which you can't do at D range '20-30" requirement).
Funnily enough, my opponent didn't have a problem with that. The problem he had was the Culexus, even after my Mark'o rolled a 1 when they got too close.
Just curious, how did the culexus work out for you? do you normally run one with your tau?
Grizzyzz wrote: Say what? Do you mean use the pulse driver at around ~10" ? or do you mean use the large blast profile of the pulse blastcannon (which you can't do at D range '20-30" requirement).
d'oh. I'll keep that in mind in the future. It would be nice to be able to use it, but it isn't game breaking. (I did equip the Pulse Driver) - which allowed me to ID a trio of Chaos Lords. (4 player game, 1500 pts a side, 2 tau players vs KDM & Nids. I'm fairly certain they had about 200 points on us.
Grizzyzz wrote: Just curious, how did the culexus work out for you? do you normally run one with your tau?
it was the first time that I actually did so. My opponent was kind of funny. He didn't care about my stormsurge, but was dropping WTFs every time I did something with the Culexus. The Culexus is frankly worth its weight in gold. In meta, it covers so many 'what ifs' that there is no reason not to take one, especially at 140 pts (another sticking point; 'how can a 140 pt model shut down a 260(?) pt Swarmlord? and strike faster, and ID it?' Frankly, I think I'll only take it if someone tries for Invisibility, anything else (see above) I can mitigate with markerlights. This weekend, if I do bring one, I may bring the entire detachment (all 4 assassins) instead of just one.
**edit** another sticking point was the Animus Speculum. Why can I shoot at his gargoyles then assault his swarmlord? I shoot in the psychic phase, which btw allows me to shoot out of combat as well.
The Culexus is frankly worth its weight in gold. In meta, it covers so many 'what ifs' that there is no reason not to take one, especially at 140 pts (another sticking point; 'how can a 140 pt model shut down a 260(?) pt Swarmlord? and strike faster, and ID it?'
Is the culexus good at CC, i haven't used one ever (only the vindicare), and what i remember was its main worth was its soaking of psychic dice?
**edit** another sticking point was the Animus Speculum. Why can I shoot at his gargoyles then assault his swarmlord? I shoot in the psychic phase, which btw allows me to shoot out of combat as well.
This would fall into psychic witchfires in general. You can witchfire any unit in range, and then make your normal shooting attacks/assaults. The only thing that could prevent this when it comes to the culexus is if it says under the weapons special rules, that it would act as its shooting phase attack.. and since the culexus is restricted to only firing one weapon, i think then it would have to charge whatever you shot at with the weapon... <- I don't know the exact weapon rules.. this is my "what if" interpretations.
Culexus. same statline as the other assassins. 8 8 4 4 3 7 4 10 -
attacks ignore armor saves, CC attacks that roll a 6 ID, CC attacks against psykers ID. when an enemy attacks it, their attacks are resolved at BS\WS 1. 4++, No Escape (-2 to LoS)
the thing is a monster in CC.Having it as a counter-assault unit is broken as hell. (even if you have to make multiple One Eye Open checks)
Grizzyzz wrote: This would fall into psychic witchfires in general. You can witchfire any unit in range, and then make your normal shooting attacks/assaults. The only thing that could prevent this when it comes to the culexus is if it says under the weapons special rules, that it would act as its shooting phase attack.. and since the culexus is restricted to only firing one weapon, i think then it would have to charge whatever you shot at with the weapon... <- I don't know the exact weapon rules.. this is my "what if" interpretations.
Grizzyzz wrote: This would fall into psychic witchfires in general. You can witchfire any unit in range, and then make your normal shooting attacks/assaults. The only thing that could prevent this when it comes to the culexus is if it says under the weapons special rules, that it would act as its shooting phase attack.. and since the culexus is restricted to only firing one weapon, i think then it would have to charge whatever you shot at with the weapon... <- I don't know the exact weapon rules.. this is my "what if" interpretations.
grenades
So to fire a grenade in the shooting phase i believe still follows the same restriction of "only allowed to fire one weapon", your choosing to fire the grenade over your other weapons. So if the culexus gun says "counts as firing in the shooting phase" you would then not be able to throw a grenade..
to be super clear... does the culexus gun say it is a seperate shooting attack in the psychic phase, or a counts as shooting phase attack?
Mont'ka has the most recent printing of the rules. P. 67, first sentence, 'An animus speculum is a ranged weapon that is fired in the Psychic Phase instead of the Shooting phase.'
Second sentence, 'Firing the animus speculum does not prevent the Culexus Assassin from Running or shooting another weapon at the same or a different target in the Shooting Phase.'
And the rest, 'The Animus Speculum can fire snap shots but cannot be used to make overwatch attacks.'
The only other weapon that it can fire are its Psy shock grenades, unless it is manning a weapon like a quadgun or battlement mounted weapon.
Second sentence, 'Firing the animus speculum does not prevent the Culexus Assassin from Running or shooting another weapon at the same or a different target in the Shooting Phase.'
22" threat range (move 12" with 10" range gun) with double D shots is a pretty wide threat range. It wont hit anything meaningful turn1 unless you deployed last and stole init or your opponent put his units you want to hit with the D right infront of the surge...which would be dumb as hell.
Turn2 onward, thats pretty unlikely that the surge cant reach something after sitting in the middle of the table a turn.
D shotty also enables skyfire potential, since if you take the pulse driver its ONLY a blast, meaning you cant use skyfire unless theres a skimmer or you want to not use the blast for a turn...not worth it. Show me a flier that dodged a 44" bubble (well, wider considering the giant base size) in the middle of the board and still did something meaningful to the objective lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: 22" threat range (move 12" with 10" range gun) with double D shots is a pretty wide threat range. It wont hit anything meaningful turn1 unless you deployed last and stole init or your opponent put his units you want to hit with the D right infront of the surge...which would be dumb as hell.
Turn2 onward, thats pretty unlikely that the surge cant reach something after sitting in the middle of the table a turn.
D shotty also enables skyfire potential, since if you take the pulse driver its ONLY a blast, meaning you cant use skyfire unless theres a skimmer or you want to not use the blast for a turn...not worth it. Show me a flier that dodged a 44" bubble (well, wider considering the giant base size) in the middle of the board and still did something meaningful to the objective lol.
Yeah. not bad at all.. the more i think about it the more I think the pulse blastcannon has a ton more utility. If your facing a ton of MSU or hordes move up a bit, drop anchors so you can just throw 8d6 dice and a bunch of blasts... if your target is throwing knights at you, just charge up with the close range.
Yeah the StormSurge D-shotgun is a win. I'm going to keep using it. The surge isn't as tough as it looks, but its just tough enough to make the enemy pay for that major expenditure before it dies. In my games I have only dropped the anchors twice. Once in my very first game (in which I learned it may not be the best idea to do so) and then one single round at the top table this weekend where I tried it once just because it was hammer and anvil deployment. other than that, I have not found the anchors to be as good as taking advantage of its mobility.
So go go gadget Surge.
I also think that since the obvious answer to Tau is not to try and outshoot them but to GET THERE, the D-Shotgun range is nearly a non-factor. The enemy army that wishes to win isn't standing back and getting in a shooting match with me. they are getting on top of me and fast.
That is why why "suboptimal" list which some too kthe time to insult, is actually quite good. it takes advantage of this knowledge and is built for up close and personal action. There are many ways to skin the cat, but it certainly stands to reason that if you know what an enemy must do to defeat you, you can do something about it if you plan accordingly.
So Skyhammers and all that are not a problem as long as you split the Stormsurge wide (about 36 inches away does the trick if you want to be safe).
Jancoran wrote: Yeah the StormSurge D-shotgun is a win. I'm going to keep using it. The surge isn't as tough as it looks, but its just tough enough to make the enemy pay for that major expenditure before it dies. In my games I have only dropped the anchors twice. Once in my very first game (in which I learned it may not be the best idea to do so) and then one single round at the top table this weekend where I tried it once just because it was hammer and anvil deployment. other than that, I have not found the anchors to be as good as taking advantage of its mobility.
I recently played one of the new Demon formations.
2 Heralds on chariots Some chaos lord idk 80 dogs 2x3 skull cannons.
12" scout and 12" move put his entire army on me turn 1.. I had to castle in a corner to not deal with BOTH squads of skull cannons (they can join for a apoc s8 ap3 ignore cover blast @bs5). Had most of my army in reserve so they all came in behind and cleaned up. Unfortunately the new demon corruption nonsense with objectives killed me. (they hold it even after they leave until i go hold the objective). So he won 16-9 in Deadlock maelstrom. But In the end he only had his Lord and 10 dogs left.. I had about 1000 points still lol, was kind of a shame how the cards worked out.
Anyway.. point is.. i think a stormsurge in this game would have been awesome.. drop anchors and just blast away until i got charged inevitably. And then stomps!
Jancoran wrote: Yeah the StormSurge D-shotgun is a win. I'm going to keep using it. The surge isn't as tough as it looks, but its just tough enough to make the enemy pay for that major expenditure before it dies. In my games I have only dropped the anchors twice. Once in my very first game (in which I learned it may not be the best idea to do so) and then one single round at the top table this weekend where I tried it once just because it was hammer and anvil deployment. other than that, I have not found the anchors to be as good as taking advantage of its mobility.
I recently played one of the new Demon formations.
2 Heralds on chariots
Some chaos lord idk
80 dogs
2x3 skull cannons.
12" scout and 12" move put his entire army on me turn 1.. I had to castle in a corner to not deal with BOTH squads of skull cannons (they can join for a apoc s8 ap3 ignore cover blast @bs5). Had most of my army in reserve so they all came in behind and cleaned up. Unfortunately the new demon corruption nonsense with objectives killed me. (they hold it even after they leave until i go hold the objective). So he won 16-9 in Deadlock maelstrom. But In the end he only had his Lord and 10 dogs left.. I had about 1000 points still lol, was kind of a shame how the cards worked out.
Anyway.. point is.. i think a stormsurge in this game would have been awesome.. drop anchors and just blast away until i got charged inevitably. And then stomps!
well... That's not a terrible idea on paper as long as the markerlight support is there but allow me to give you some think food there.
By working from one corner, you force no choices. In objective missuions you are helping to insure you cant break out to score the objectives you need. For this reason a Stormsurge to the left or right about 36 inches away forces the enemy to decide. It also makes whatever force they send after either corner less impressive. And with the Stormsurge, it can support your main cluster from pretty far away. So you effectively get all the shooting you already wanted, can still drop anchors if he chooses not to go after your stormsurge at all and if he does come after your Surge, the Cluster can handle the threat easier and the Stormsurge can also. So this is a win all the way around.
So if you use a Surge, use it to force decisions and split the enemy efforts. the enemy being unable to support one another (while you, on the other hand, can) is key.
We used NOVA rules for tageting blasts, so I castled the ghost drones and piranha in a ruin with the ghost preventing the apocalypse blasts. Shot all the dogs I could . Screen my flank with drones and held ground. Took 3 turns to kill all the Ghostkeel and really move on.
Meanwhile his whole backfield was open so I dropped in and started ripping him apart.
If it wasn't deadlock I think the score would have been more even or possibly in my favor. Just 11 cards uncontested by me was a huge advantage.
I could have opted for no reserves... But would not have been able to stop the apocalypse blasts which would have just wiped out all my suits.
In the end. Even though it was a loss, it was a great game.
The ability to reach across the board and touch most corner's, I've always felt is crucial. It is the lone scarab squad or hiding jetbike which is a pain.
The D cannon...personally I feel the drivers, missiles and dancing shoes are plenty, combined with the other volumes of fire Tau can dish out. But hey, my 2 cents.
im actually shooting myself in the foot for hard-fixing my pulse driver cannon. Its magnetized onto the stormsurge but i glued all the pieces on it, and for some dumb reason they only give you 1 of the lower half of the main gun.
And that bit is a pain in the ASS to find on ebay. Geez. Not that i technically need it since wysiwyg isnt really enforced around here, but still..fml lol
How effective would an 1500pt of 2 Riptide Wings (7 Suits) be?
I have a friend who is a huge Gundam fan and he's quite keen on the idea of fielding an army of 7 mechas aka Riptides, But how effective would such a list be? I've done a rough list and you could have 3 with FNP, a few small upgrades and 2 suit that would have to pair up. Granted the Riptides have the strategic flexibility of the nova reactor plus that devastating double fire move, but without support and with only 7 units is such an army viable?
Or on the other hand is it too overpowered, where would such a list sit on the friendly to cheese meter?
Riptides, even in the Riptide Wing, actually aren't all that effective at shooting, as compared to many other Tau options. Consider 3 Broadsides vs 1 Riptide, for instance. They're just highly mobile and hard as hell to kill while still providing good fire support.
An all-Riptide army would probably stomp certain lists, but you may not have the firepower to push most opponents off objectives or enough units to effectively contest said objectives. You'd definitely be in trouble against melee deathstars. They'll lock you in combat and eat your face with thunder hammers and frost axes and whatnot. They may eat slowly, but they really only have to engage 3 units to ensure a stalemate, at worst. That is, you basically have to kill everything before it gets to you on the second turn. That's possible but not super likely.
Drop a Riptide for a cullexus assassin.. I think that could be pretty devastating. There will be obvious counters. But they could be mitigated with a little support.
Grizzyzz wrote: Drop a Riptide for a cullexus assassin.. I think that could be pretty devastating. There will be obvious counters. But they could be mitigated with a little support.
Heck.
1 wing of 5 Drone net of markers Cullexus
Depending on points, one larger squad of gun drones to pump out some serious RoF? I think 3 burst with VT's, 2 ions, all with EWO & Fusion (SMS are good but you are limited on bodies to field tools - gun drones could spam (lower quality) str5?
I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...
I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...
I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.
Define "serious risk". I am confident that the reason the stormsurge is within 10" of an enemy is because quite soon the closest enemy will be 20 inches away.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...
I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.
Define "serious risk". I am confident that the reason the stormsurge is within 10" of an enemy is because quite soon the closest enemy will be 20 inches away.
Yeah, if you don't roll ones to hit or on the D table. Depending on what you're shooting at, that could be catastrophic. Of course, if you had units in front of the Stormsurge to screen it...
My point is, I feel like the Stormsurge really isn't tough enough to risk putting it in harm's way, especially if you don't have a Shield Generator on it (which is why I always do). I prefer to keep units like that, which are usually a big bulls-eye for the opponent, safely behind the lines, preferably screened with Firewarriors or Kroot to prevent naughty deepstrikers.
but yes it's in the new supplement and it is alright released if you had the previous you can get an update for free
All jinking on 4+ with 
