NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, as it is topical, I was about to make my first ever Forgeworld order, and was hoping to add something good to my competitive Tau options.
If I could buy one of the following, should I grab a Y'vahra, R'varna, or three Tetras?
Are we expecting Y'vahra's experimental rules to get nerfed into the ground soon, because I love the model and would love an excuse to own one.
Get the Tetras. If I recall correctly, you can only get them in pairs.
I like the Y'Vahra more than the other two options because of his speed and damage output. I believe he would be the better option. However it's hard to say if it'll get nerfed in the next Imperial Armour book. The R'Varna recieved his nerf within two months of the experimental rules being released, yet this guy went unscathed by the nerf bat. Only time will tell.
I really don't consider the Y'Vahra OP by any means and neither do the vast majority of players at my FLGS who have had to played against mine and I do play in a competitive environment. The fact that I have to get within roughly 12 inches to be effective with it really is why they don't consider it over the top, yes whatever I shoot at will die but chances are I will be close enough to my opponent that more fire can be brought against it and be whittled down, especially if he has weapons like plasma guns.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, as it is topical, I was about to make my first ever Forgeworld order, and was hoping to add something good to my competitive Tau options.
If I could buy one of the following, should I grab a Y'vahra, R'varna, or three Tetras?
Are we expecting Y'vahra's experimental rules to get nerfed into the ground soon, because I love the model and would love an excuse to own one.
Tetras, assuming you are not fixated on the bigger detachments, will just rock sauce and fit within most armies. The Y'vahra feels like a centre piece or atleast it will be a big element to your army. Get the former (mobile markerlights that can move super fast for objectives/line breaker!), proxy/test the latter.
I got what feels like a nub question with coordinated firepower... assuming the ITC FAQ ruling on it...
Imagine 5 tau units… A B C D are all fire warrior teams. Unit E is a battlesuit unit, one has a target lock
A + B + E shoot at a target 1, get the bonuses…. Battlesuit with the target lock shoots Target 2. Can that suit then join with Firewarriors C and D to get the Coordinated firepower benefits against target 2?
So you get the bonuses against 2 units, with only 5 units.
Target Locks cause a lot of rule problems that GW seems to refuse to remedy, that situation being one of them.
To me, no you dont get the benefits because Target Lock targets are determined the same time your unit picks a target, which is the primary focus of the unit (i.e. if you declare a charge, the one you haft to charge at).
The rules are written with a primary target in mind, even though nothing actually hard-code says it afaik. Markerlights do not share between a unit if they are targeting various targets, so i dont see why the Coord Fire would. That particular model would, just like with markerlights, but not his entire unit.
Despite the fact that a unit can only participate once per turn in a Coordinated Firepower attack and thus unit E has already done this with A +B. So unit E can't join with C and D.
With the Dawn Blade Contingent the way Killing Blow is worded it seems like it isn't restricted to just units from the formation or am I reading it wrong?
CKO wrote: With the Dawn Blade Contingent the way Killing Blow is worded it seems like it isn't restricted to just units from the formation or am I reading it wrong?
Hu, weird, I guess they do? Other Decurion rules state the specific detachment in them, but this one is just everyone?
That being said, getting the second Warlord Trait on a shooting Commander lets you probably melt any Monstrous creatures since you re-roll to hit and to wound, while probably running something like Plasma or CIBs. Does Monster Hunter work against GMCs? If so, what's the math on 3 suits plus a Commander all rocking double Plasma or double CiB to just wipe out a Wraith Knight?
Luford wrote: I got what feels like a nub question with coordinated firepower... assuming the ITC FAQ ruling on it...
Imagine 5 tau units… A B C D are all fire warrior teams. Unit E is a battlesuit unit, one has a target lock
A + B + E shoot at a target 1, get the bonuses…. Battlesuit with the target lock shoots Target 2. Can that suit then join with Firewarriors C and D to get the Coordinated firepower benefits against target 2?
So you get the bonuses against 2 units, with only 5 units.
I don't see why not, you just news to declare it as you're firing. ITC was more worried about rule sharing.
Target lock lets a model shoot at a different target, the unit is firing at one thing he is firing at something else. In order to gain the benefits of the contingent 3 units must fire at one target not 3 models. The question I have is does the unit with target lock get the increase bs since the unit is buffed which he is technically still part of the unit, right?
CKO wrote: With the Dawn Blade Contingent the way Killing Blow is worded it seems like it isn't restricted to just units from the formation or am I reading it wrong?
Hu, weird, I guess they do? Other Decurion rules state the specific detachment in them, but this one is just everyone?
That being said, getting the second Warlord Trait on a shooting Commander lets you probably melt any Monstrous creatures since you re-roll to hit and to wound, while probably running something like Plasma or CIBs. Does Monster Hunter work against GMCs? If so, what's the math on 3 suits plus a Commander all rocking double Plasma or double CiB to just wipe out a Wraith Knight?
Monster hunter still works on GMCs as they are considered MCs with extra rules.
Luford wrote: I got what feels like a nub question with coordinated firepower... assuming the ITC FAQ ruling on it...
Imagine 5 tau units… A B C D are all fire warrior teams. Unit E is a battlesuit unit, one has a target lock
A + B + E shoot at a target 1, get the bonuses…. Battlesuit with the target lock shoots Target 2. Can that suit then join with Firewarriors C and D to get the Coordinated firepower benefits against target 2?
So you get the bonuses against 2 units, with only 5 units.
Doesn't work.
For Coordinated Firepower to apply, your units need to fire as one unit, ergo simultaneously.
However, while units A+B+E can shoot simultaneously at target X and have part of unit E shoot at target Y, units C and D that are not part of that shooting must wait for that shooting to be complete, and only then fire upon unit Y, at that point E's portion already finished, meaning only C+D coordinate firepower, and no benefit is gained.
For Coordinated Firepower to apply, your units need to fire as one unit, ergo simultaneously.
However, while units A+B+E can shoot simultaneously at target X and have part of unit E shoot at target Y, units C and D that are not part of that shooting must wait for that shooting to be complete, and only then fire upon unit Y, at that point E's portion already finished, meaning only C+D coordinate firepower, and no benefit is gained.
remember that if E is a stormsurge with its anchors deployed though, then it does work. firing 1 CFP 1, firing 2 CFP2, etc.
and remember that the ITC poll was biased against tau players when it was released.
For Coordinated Firepower to apply, your units need to fire as one unit, ergo simultaneously.
However, while units A+B+E can shoot simultaneously at target X and have part of unit E shoot at target Y, units C and D that are not part of that shooting must wait for that shooting to be complete, and only then fire upon unit Y, at that point E's portion already finished, meaning only C+D coordinate firepower, and no benefit is gained.
remember that if E is a stormsurge with its anchors deployed though, then it does work. firing 1 CFP 1, firing 2 CFP2, etc.
and remember that the ITC poll was biased against tau players when it was released.
But Stormsurges are GMC . while they may fire each weapon to different targets they still do it during ONE shooting attack. so he can't be part of different CFP actions. Different story if the Storm surge is anchored an has two shooting attacks available.
For Coordinated Firepower to apply, your units need to fire as one unit, ergo simultaneously.
However, while units A+B+E can shoot simultaneously at target X and have part of unit E shoot at target Y, units C and D that are not part of that shooting must wait for that shooting to be complete, and only then fire upon unit Y, at that point E's portion already finished, meaning only C+D coordinate firepower, and no benefit is gained.
remember that if E is a stormsurge with its anchors deployed though, then it does work. firing 1 CFP 1, firing 2 CFP2, etc.
and remember that the ITC poll was biased against tau players when it was released.
But Stormsurges are GMC . while they may fire each weapon to different targets they still do it during ONE shooting attack. so he can't be part of different CFP actions. Different story if the Storm surge is anchored an has two shooting attacks available.
Exactly, stormsurge shoots at separate targets, but all shots are made "at once"
Before another unit (or units) start shooting, every currently shooting unit need to finish every single one of their shots.
_ghost_ wrote: Different story if the Storm surge is anchored an has two shooting attacks available.
what did you think I was talking about?
_ghost_ wrote: But Stormsurges are GMC . while they may fire each weapon to different targets they still do it during ONE shooting attack
You know, this was actually a question of mine earlier in this thread. If I equip an EWO and fire some of the weapons at incoming units, can I still use the 'fire each weapon at a different target' firing mode?
CKO wrote: With the Dawn Blade Contingent the way Killing Blow is worded it seems like it isn't restricted to just units from the formation or am I reading it wrong?
Hu, weird, I guess they do? Other Decurion rules state the specific detachment in them, but this one is just everyone?
That being said, getting the second Warlord Trait on a shooting Commander lets you probably melt any Monstrous creatures since you re-roll to hit and to wound, while probably running something like Plasma or CIBs. Does Monster Hunter work against GMCs? If so, what's the math on 3 suits plus a Commander all rocking double Plasma or double CiB to just wipe out a Wraith Knight?
Heh. And here I was considering taking multiple DBCs so as to select multiple (1 each) units.
_ghost_ wrote: But Stormsurges are GMC . while they may fire each weapon to different targets they still do it during ONE shooting attack
You know, this was actually a question of mine earlier in this thread. If I equip an EWO and fire some of the weapons at incoming units, can I still use the 'fire each weapon at a different target' firing mode?
I'd say no. because the weapon itsel lost its abbility to shoot in the shooting phase folloed. sure the Stormsurge could fire all its weapons but these weapons aren't able to shoot in that turn.
_ghost_ wrote: Different story if the Storm surge is anchored an has two shooting attacks available.
what did you think I was talking about?
_ghost_ wrote: But Stormsurges are GMC . while they may fire each weapon to different targets they still do it during ONE shooting attack
You know, this was actually a question of mine earlier in this thread. If I equip an EWO and fire some of the weapons at incoming units, can I still use the 'fire each weapon at a different target' firing mode?
CKO wrote: With the Dawn Blade Contingent the way Killing Blow is worded it seems like it isn't restricted to just units from the formation or am I reading it wrong?
Hu, weird, I guess they do? Other Decurion rules state the specific detachment in them, but this one is just everyone?
That being said, getting the second Warlord Trait on a shooting Commander lets you probably melt any Monstrous creatures since you re-roll to hit and to wound, while probably running something like Plasma or CIBs. Does Monster Hunter work against GMCs? If so, what's the math on 3 suits plus a Commander all rocking double Plasma or double CiB to just wipe out a Wraith Knight?
Heh. And here I was considering taking multiple DBCs so as to select multiple (1 each) units.
I'm looking at two units of one with Meltas, and then a unit of three with a Commander carrying Plasmas and the Overwatch buff. That feels like a solid amount of fire power and options, along with at least an ok trait thanks to the re-roll on it. Also a Riptide and three HYMP broadsides.
However, I can see taking two Ret Cads for six Relentless Broadsides and two Riptides, while making one Commander a Mark'O and the other a missile-Mark'O commander, that way you can join him with drones or broadsides based on the trait. Though that does force you into six solo suits you have to find uses for.
Tinkrr wrote: Though that does force you into six solo suits you have to find uses for.
if you are taking multiple detachments, you likely aren't going to be taking fire warriors. Give em all dual burst cannons.
In my initial idea, I was going to run a mark'o with a marker drone unit from a drone net, for BS5 interceptor.
Remember that all you need for the warlord selection is a character designation - 10 pts that way to maybe make an alternate warlord could be worth it. After all in my example above, my opponent is going to have plenty of incentive to target the unit. I don't want them to possibly get a point for slaying my warlord as well.
Don't get me wrong, solo suits aren't terrible, it's just that you have as many as you do, and with the amount of broadsides you have it's not like you want to take more than solos, which makes it harder to outfit them since you won't be hitting critical mass of fire.
As for what I'd run, well I wouldn't go with Burst Cannons, you're not running Fire Warriors but you have a ton of shots from Broadsides, and two Riptides which means either double pie plate, or pie plate plus up to 12 super burst cannon rending shots.
That being said, I'd take two or so Melta suits, on being twin linked and one being normal on each, making them tank drop hunters, maybe even three. Then I'd take the others with Missile Pods and maybe even Stim, though that's unlikely, and use them to camp objectives while providing a few missile shots on whatever.
The best Warlord Trait with this build would probably be number six, Broadsides are already twin linked, but giving them Shred with a missile commander results in 24 twin linked Shred shots, and then 4 more none twin linked shred shots. That'll probably melt anything you really target. Throw in some Missile drones with a Drone Net and oh my that's just terrifying with Shred.
Warlord trait number 5 isn't bad either, let's you reserve your suits more, though double Ret with max Broadsides and min Suits means you can deploy much more easily without wanting to use Low Altitude, though it's always an option.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Six solo suits is exactly what you want. MSU Crisis, disrupting your opponent's plan by being small, dangerous targets the can't be ignored.
Tried to mess around with multiple Cores to just bring a gakton of MSU but now that i actually try to make a list for it instead of thinking about it, kinda impossible in 2k or less games lol. The requirement of 1 Aux choice kinda prevents it.
The random seeker missile is because i had 8 points left over and nowhere to put it lol.
Everything is an independent unit but because of Hunter Contingent giving me Coordinated Fire they behave like a unit anyway, granting the bonus BS, shared ML, and act totally independently elsewise so no leadership problems or high RoF weapon problems whatsoever. It does let the opponent choose his target though.
Could technically remove the Pathfinders and the random Seeker to add a third Broadside to finish the trio. But something tells me even with Coord Fire only have 6 markerlights in the army is a baaaad idea lol
eh, Counterfire has won me games a lot more than being able to snipe out a heavy weapons gun. Its the sole reason a squad of 5 Wraiths didnt get their charge on me last game, i rolled a ton of 5s lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: eh, Counterfire has won me games a lot more than being able to snipe out a heavy weapons gun. Its the sole reason a squad of 5 Wraiths didnt get their charge on me last game, i rolled a ton of 5s lol.
Maybe. Just a recommendation. There are deathstars that cannot afford to lose a key member. i like to see that they lose that key member.
True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)
Rule Number 1: force lots of saves.
Rule #2: 1's happen.
It isn't that you count on it. Its that its devastating when it happens, moreso than maybe hitting a couple extra times. Losing three stealth suits (likely less by the time they are ready to charge you) isnt crippling to the Tau. But losing the lynchpin can be crippling to the enemy. So its net gain for you.
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)
In a kind of inverse to what you expect to use it for, you can use ATS to put saves onto normal models in the unit.
So say someone is running their deathstar with their 2+/3++ IC out front. You can use your 6s to instead put the wounds on the ordinary models hiding behind the much tougher IC model. They can't pass them back so you can effectively nullify the tanking IC.
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)
In a kind of inverse to what you expect to use it for, you can use ATS to put saves onto normal models in the unit.
So say someone is running their deathstar with their 2+/3++ IC out front. You can use your 6s to instead put the wounds on the ordinary models hiding behind the much tougher IC model. They can't pass them back so you can effectively nullify the tanking IC.
That's...a really cool way to look at that.
I always favored taking down the commander though, mostly because most "stars" I face are mostly a big unit that is tanking for the IC, not the other way around.
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)
In a kind of inverse to what you expect to use it for, you can use ATS to put saves onto normal models in the unit.
So say someone is running their deathstar with their 2+/3++ IC out front. You can use your 6s to instead put the wounds on the ordinary models hiding behind the much tougher IC model. They can't pass them back so you can effectively nullify the tanking IC.
As someone who consistently uses Tankmander strats, im surprised i never thought of that.
Very valid point.
You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.
DirtyDeeds wrote: You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.
Name one particular model bought by a unit that grants FNP or Fearless that isnt a character or a unit-wide purchase anyway. For that matter, is a regular character. 4+ LoS is pretty lousy, i rarely make it, but i never ever see non-ICs sporting unit wide rules.
Characters are still nice to snipe out if you can though for obvious reasons, Leadership negatives, no challenges (CSM/KDK really hate that), and usually he has the nastier melee weapon if there is one.
Also theres a major flop in that link Jancoran. Characters do not get a 5+ Precision Shot in 7th, it was "models that already have it get a 5+" in the last book. Characters lost it by default, so the 5+ is impossible to get. Current dex doesnt even mention it anymore either. Unfortunately that also cuts Shadowsun's precision shots back to a 6+ That would be worth the 10pt upgrade on models like a Broadside to get a 5+ precision shot if that was true lol.
DirtyDeeds wrote: You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.
Name one particular model bought by a unit that grants FNP or Fearless that isnt a character or a unit-wide purchase anyway.
For that matter, is a regular character. 4+ LoS is pretty lousy, i rarely make it, but i never ever see non-ICs sporting unit wide rules.
Characters are still nice to snipe out if you can though for obvious reasons, Leadership negatives, no challenges (CSM/KDK really hate that), and usually he has the nastier melee weapon if there is one.
Also theres a major flop in that link Jancoran. Characters do not get a 5+ Precision Shot in 7th, it was "models that already have it get a 5+" in the last book. Characters lost it by default, so the 5+ is impossible to get. Current dex doesnt even mention it anymore either. Unfortunately that also cuts Shadowsun's precision shots back to a 6+
That would be worth the 10pt upgrade on models like a Broadside to get a 5+ precision shot if that was true lol.
Was it a 6E post?
Regardless, I've killed guys BEHIND the 2+ tank and I have killed Missiles and I have killed Apothecaries (uh oh... a unit upgrade that isn't an IC!)
DirtyDeeds wrote: You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.
Name one particular model bought by a unit that grants FNP or Fearless that isnt a character or a unit-wide purchase anyway.
For that matter, is a regular character. 4+ LoS is pretty lousy, i rarely make it, but i never ever see non-ICs sporting unit wide rules.
Characters are still nice to snipe out if you can though for obvious reasons, Leadership negatives, no challenges (CSM/KDK really hate that), and usually he has the nastier melee weapon if there is one.
Also theres a major flop in that link Jancoran. Characters do not get a 5+ Precision Shot in 7th, it was "models that already have it get a 5+" in the last book. Characters lost it by default, so the 5+ is impossible to get. Current dex doesnt even mention it anymore either. Unfortunately that also cuts Shadowsun's precision shots back to a 6+
That would be worth the 10pt upgrade on models like a Broadside to get a 5+ precision shot if that was true lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tried to mess around with multiple Cores to just bring a gakton of MSU but now that i actually try to make a list for it instead of thinking about it, kinda impossible in 2k or less games lol. The requirement of 1 Aux choice kinda prevents it.
The random seeker missile is because i had 8 points left over and nowhere to put it lol.
Everything is an independent unit but because of Hunter Contingent giving me Coordinated Fire they behave like a unit anyway, granting the bonus BS, shared ML, and act totally independently elsewise so no leadership problems or high RoF weapon problems whatsoever. It does let the opponent choose his target though.
Could technically remove the Pathfinders and the random Seeker to add a third Broadside to finish the trio. But something tells me even with Coord Fire only have 6 markerlights in the army is a baaaad idea lol
Couldn't you just take a Ret core and then alley a Ret Cad to them to avoid a forced second aux choice? The Dawn Blade buff does seem to be army wide not contingent based. Those two are only 1388ish points with upgrades (not max upgrades), including 6 Broadsides, 6 suits, 2 commanders one with missile pods and one with two drones, and two Riptides with Stim packs, and 1612pts with a drone net, meaning you have 238 points for other stuff.
No because the idea was to abuse the Coord Fire thing. If you arent using the Cores + Aux in Hunter Cont. then they dont have Coord Fire and thats what i was after.
The idea was to let them reap the benefits of being in a squad as well as get the "3 units = +1BS" perk virtually every time i fire. That way, when theyre being shot at the enemy can only kill one suit no matter how well they wound, because each suit is technology his own squad. It also lets me give the middle finger to unit coherency to completely dodge blasts.
It wouldnt work without Coord Fire because that would throw markerlights out the window to do anything. Dawn Blade would only work against a single target.
Oh, I was looking at it as maximizing relentless Broadsides and taking an extra Riptide.
If you want coordinated fire buffs, there are plenty of tricks to get them, such as having three suits base and then a ret cad as you have done. There's also Piranha tricks, since each Piranha can make a unit of drones, thus counting as two squads on its own for only 40 points.
Really the big trick with coordinated fire is building extra wide, and doing things like taking three one man squads of broadsides as your heavy and such.
Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQ" has been updated with more rule changes.
Most notably:
Tau Empire:
Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.
All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.
If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.
General:
Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.
This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.
Turns out the ITC also changed the rules and said you can't tank shock a GC/FGC unless you're a superheavy. No threat of your GC dying to Rhinos then. My mistake.
"All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time" ok now im sure ITC just hates Tau and wants to remove all the shenanigans we have. The drone factory thing was expected, but this? it literally makes no sense. Its a piece of gear we do not have an option to bring and it has no bonus effect if multiple models use it.
ITC is really pissing me off. Cant stand their rule-changing mentality. Solve unanswerable issues and unusual situations like the Stormsurge Tankshock situation, not change rules that are clear cut for the hell of it. Thats hardly even considered an obscure rule since it specifies "model" several times before saying "unit" ONCE during the effect. Makes no sense to use them all at once. Straight up middle finger to Tau, nothing else.
Having more than one Ghostkeel is fine in formations. Outside of formations there's very little reason to take anything in less than minimum squads.
Also in the LVO thread the ITC has said they will not allow Earth Caste on Riptides, but that is only a provesional rule for the LVO that will come up to a vote later. That being said, a lot of these might be voted on later and are only such due to their time crunch.
Remember, the great thing about the ITC is that they listen, and if you pose your views in a reasonable way they'll acknowledge them. Look forward to me trying to get you guys to vote for Earthtides in the future D:
Its like they want riptide wings, i think facing drone farm would be cool alot funner than facing a riptide wing! Make small changes like you cant leave first turn that automatically pushes back the potential of the farm and bam you have a unique fun list that is not competitive but its different.
Ok wow glad that this is the "whole lot of pessimism and very little information" page of the thread.
It can be simply summed up as Tinkrr did - take one Ghostkeel in a unit and no more than one. With very little restriction on number of detachments - even in the ITC format, you could take 2 Tau CADs and 1 FSE CAD if you really needed the slots, so although you'd have a whopping 270 point "tax" for 6 obsec units, you would also have 9 elites slots, so that's really not a problem either.
As far as the ITC ruling, it doesn't really belong in this thread but I would like to say something I think is important:
The rather abrupt ruling comes because the LVO is around the corner and they needed to settle the dispute (because it is at the very least minorly ambiguous) before the event. In Reece's words, they wanted to go with the "most conservative ruling" and it will be put up for a vote in the next poll, which will happen after the LVO.
Your in a class full of marines and we get to vote on a Tau rule what is going to happen?
What about the OSC formation where you get them to ignore cover and get +1 bs, you cant take them solo? Unless you want to pay 180 points for the stealth suits?
What about the tank shock ruling on the stormsurge? Your using a special rule so we are going to penalize you for it! Why in the world does it have to be treated differently? Do we need to make it to where if you shot a heavy weapon in the previous shooting phase you have to death and glory?
CKO wrote: Your in a class full of marines and we get to vote on a Tau rule what is going to happen?
What about the OSC formation where you get them to ignore cover and get +1 bs, you cant take them solo? Unless you want to pay 180 points for the stealth suits?
What about the tank shock ruling on the stormsurge? Your using a special rule so we are going to penalize you for it! Why in the world does it have to be treated differently? Do we need to make it to where if you shot a heavy weapon in the previous shooting phase you have to death and glory?
Its bs utter nonsense!
Yup.
I've made this case a hundred times. when most people dont play youre army and they get to INVENT rules just because it sounds fluffy? What a crock of shizl.
Mulletdude wrote: Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQ" has been updated with more rule changes.
Most notably:
Tau Empire:
Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.
All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.
If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.
General:
Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.
This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, the Stormsurge might just die to a bunch of Rhinos, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.
I'm normally fine with ITC rulings but even I have to admit that it seems like they are specifically targeting Tau above most other codices in terms of what they can and cannot do. Does any other codex have this many rulings going specifically against them? Some of the rulings make perfect sense but others like the Ghostkeel one are head scratchers. Now, they did actually give the Stormsurge a plus if I'm not mistaken; I'm pretty sure without this new ruling the rules-as-written would actually see a Tank Shocked Stormsurge pretty much auto-die as it wouldn't be able to move out of the way and thus continuously take the automatic wounds, or am I wrong there?
The rules say that the Tank Shock would kill the StormSurge because it cannot be moved out of the Tank shockers way.
So the StormSurge is getting D3 wounds instead of dying.
leaving it in base contact makes no sense., as the Stormsurge can then smash down on it without moving the end of the round!
These guys just aren't thinking! They are writing new rules and they are not even thinking of the consequences. Not only that, but if i was a player who wanted to tank shock the Stormsurge dead in a totally legal way, how mad would I be that I not only don't get to but that it can now crush my hull at the end of the turn just by shooting one gun at it.?
As a Tau player this Ghostkeel thing is BS. the Piranha thing is BS.
I don't know what the heck is going on. What I do know is that I don't like it.
Can a garg creature be tank shocked? Id assume only by a super heavy.
Weve got the aus faq over here in oz which takes a few things and runs wild but thats for another thread.
At the moment im liking the commander in xv86 with shield gen and positional relay and supported by the guy with structural analyzer bringing in a squad of breachers or carbined/emp nades
casperionx wrote: Can a garg creature be tank shocked? Id assume only by a super heavy.
Weve got the aus faq over here in oz which takes a few things and runs wild but thats for another thread.
At the moment im liking the commander in xv86 with shield gen and positional relay and supported by the guy with structural analyzer bringing in a squad of breachers or carbined/emp nades
Yes it can be shocked. The Pilons kill it if its tank shocked (read the rules and you will agree). So the StormSurge thing helps them and screws the player doing it twice. So. what was fair there?
The Ghostkeel thing is simply not a rule. They just made it up. There's no ambiguity. It works exactly as stated. they just didn't like it.
The Piranha thing: why? i know its good. I also know that lots of things are good. Do we go changing the fundamental way things are written just because they are? Yet...alllow... Forge World and the entire universe of things like it?
luke1705 wrote: Ok wow glad that this is the "whole lot of pessimism and very little information" page of the thread.
It can be simply summed up as Tinkrr did - take one Ghostkeel in a unit and no more than one. With very little restriction on number of detachments - even in the ITC format, you could take 2 Tau CADs and 1 FSE CAD if you really needed the slots, so although you'd have a whopping 270 point "tax" for 6 obsec units, you would also have 9 elites slots, so that's really not a problem either.
As far as the ITC ruling, it doesn't really belong in this thread but I would like to say something I think is important:
The rather abrupt ruling comes because the LVO is around the corner and they needed to settle the dispute (because it is at the very least minorly ambiguous) before the event. In Reece's words, they wanted to go with the "most conservative ruling" and it will be put up for a vote in the next poll, which will happen after the LVO.
But the Ghostkeel clearly says models, not the unit - and you get +1 BS when packing three.
Pirahna...I'm undecided on it.
Stormsurge made sense, RAW didn't cover it.
Dont want to go through over 50 pages of chit chat but wanted to know if anyone has already discussed the "Beachhead" tactic on here yet? Basically it consits of the following:
-x2-3 Stormsurges
-Skyshield Landing Pad
Basically you put all of your Stormsurges up on the Skyshield to give them a dominating view of the table and you save points by not having to equip them with Shield Generators. Has anyone tried this yet?
Mulletdude wrote: Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQ" has been updated with more rule changes.
Most notably:
Tau Empire:
Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.
All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.
If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.
General:
Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.
This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, the Stormsurge might just die to a bunch of Rhinos, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.
OMG I'm glad this nonsense hasn't become big in europe, we do suffer from equally hilarious Comp rules in some places though. But this is is just beyond nonsense leaving one totally flabbergasted, in my view people should not be supporting things like this.
Frozocrone wrote: I'm not sure the base size would accommodate all three. Maybe two. WMS might have to play a part.
It's also static, so no good in Maelstrom. Eternal is a different story.
It actually does, someone over on Advanced Tau Tactica (where I got the idea from actually) posted a picture with all three bases fitting on the Skyshield Landing Pad. Granted I think it would work better with x2 personally so there would be some room to turn the model for LoS purposes.
Interesting idea with the Stormsurges. I'd rather pay the points to have the shield generators since it will allow you to move and go stomp things that don't come to you, and allow you to exert positional dominance more easily. That's certainly worth the extra points to me, but YMMV.
Re: ITC, I apologize if I opened/contributed to the can of worms, but it's really pretty simple. There will, in the relatively near future, be a vote to settle this. Personally, I think it will go in favor of one use per ghostkeel, as I believe that it RAI, but RAW is certainly murky. In the meantime, my group uses ITC rules and FAQs for their events, but we take the view that it is one per suit, as that's how it reads to us.
Point being, take or leave the ITC. It really doesn't matter. You could even get points in their system and have an "ITC event" where the ghostkeels are one use per suit (as is the case where I play). So at this point, it kind of feels like (some of us) have left a tactical discussion and started a whine fest, which really has no place in this thread (or anywhere if I'm being honest)
Remember, the guys over at Frontline had 600 rules questions to go through before the LVO. Those 600 rules questions boiled down to 7 new additions in the faq. 5 of those 7 changed how Tau work.
Also note on the Stormsurge issue, in the ITC Gargantuan Creatures can only be Tank Shocked by Super Heavies. Its under the "Super-Heavy Walkers (SHW), Gargantuan Creatures (GC) and Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC)" section.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Ghostkeel ruling just a bunch of bs. Noting else was terrible.
The void shield ruling against markerlights was terrible. If the void shield blocks markerlights (which are just laser designators) then no unit under the effect of the void shield should be able to shoot outside the area of the void shield's effect, due to not being able to see out of it as apparently the void shield is blocking light from reaching them.
The argument that the ITC has a bias for an army is silly. There are aomething like twice as many Eldar players as Tau players, but then there are also far more than twice as many non-Eldar players as there are Eldar players. The same is true for any other army, and on top of that many players play multiple armies in the ITC, not just one.
If you still don't believe me that there isn't a bias, well the least represented faction of Orks got a huge buff in the last vote, so you know...
The only rule changes that should have been changed is Coord Fire like they did (face it thats way op having buffmander spread across the entire army) and only allowing 1 WK despite the formation allowing multiple ones. Nothing else except for rules that are constantly being debated should ever be touched.
They also took Object Secured from necrons, which is bs. Wheres the nerf to Skyhammer? Oh wait, imperial army stuff.
Also there are plenty of reasons to field more than one ghostkeel in a squad. Less markerlights if not in the Hunter Cont, they can all benefit from an objective bonus at once, Fire Team, and much MUCH wider footprint for Supporting Fire. Not to mention thats 3 Elite slots if you field 3 solo ghosts, which drastically cut your other suit numbers
Your free to believe what you like, but look at it this way, favourtism or not, Marines haven't been winning the LVO and aren't taking up disproportional slots in the top 20 ITC player list, if anything they're taking up too few based on number of players from what I remember when I checked last. So yea, the ITC is still significantly more balanced than any other option, whether or not there is bias. Refusing to contribute to it only hurts you more, as nothing will change if you just ignore it, and as it's already a good system, imagine what it could be?
As for taking three deprecate Ghostkeels, well you could always take the Ghostkeel Wing, or the Ret Cad to get access to more suits. We're really not that restricted.
I myself intend to run two Ghostkeels in a unit for my OSC and have no problem losing one holo photon. If it does end up being a problem I can always restructure my list, no harm done.
Plainshow wrote: Also note on the Stormsurge issue, in the ITC Gargantuan Creatures can only be Tank Shocked by Super Heavies. Its under the "Super-Heavy Walkers (SHW), Gargantuan Creatures (GC) and Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC)" section.
I wasn't aware they changed the rules on that too. Thanks for the heads up. At least the Stormsurge won't be dying to tank shocks often.
gmaleron wrote: Dont want to go through over 50 pages of chit chat but wanted to know if anyone has already discussed the "Beachhead" tactic on here yet? Basically it consits of the following:
-x2-3 Stormsurges
-Skyshield Landing Pad
Basically you put all of your Stormsurges up on the Skyshield to give them a dominating view of the table and you save points by not having to equip them with Shield Generators. Has anyone tried this yet?
Seems legit. I dont think three will fit on it though.
Mulletdude wrote: Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQa been updated with more rule changes.
Most notably:
Tau Empire:
Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.
All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.
If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.
General:
Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.
This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.
Turns out the ITC also changed the rules and said you can't tank shock a GC/FGC unless you're a superheavy. No threat of your GC dying to Rhinos then. My mistake.
To be honest, I feel like the rules change on Void Shield stopping marker lights from affecting units inside its bubble is probably far more problematic for Tau.
Actually, couldn't shoot units protected by a VSG anyways so I guess it doesn't matter
gmaleron wrote: Ironically its because of Bias that my FLGS refuses to ever accept their rule set, we feel that they favor Imperial Armies to much.
Based off of what empirical evidence, if I may ask? Not trying to be facetious - I am genuinely curious how you think their last tournament had a space marine or imperial bias. It featured a Tyranid/Astra Militarum final, in addition to enabling several strong Daemon, Eldar and Tau builds, and had some ridiculous amount of parity in the top 16 of the last tournament, something like 12 different armies IIRC. There was a green tide that won one of their recent GT, and here's an article showcasing the top 16 armies going into day 2 of the 2015 BAO (also run by them)
The FAQ is not why these armies won or lost in most cases. So that makes this list a non sequitur.
What is critical to his point is that they dont like the FAQ and...in addition... it DOES benefit the Imperial armies.
So all your list does is illustrate is how good a General these winners were. It has zilch to say about the FAQ being used because FAQ's don't win championships.
1) Daemons
2) Tyranids
3) Tau/Eldar
4) Khorne Daemonkin
5) Space Marines
6) Space Marines
7) Renegades & Daemonkin
8) War Convocation
9) Tau
10) Tau
11) Eldar/DE 12) Eldar/DE 13) Necrons
14) Space Marines
15) Orks
16) Orks
How many imperial armies was that? 3 out of 16 or 18 percent?
Your turn
We sat down and looked at the rules and made a judgement call, as mentioned above plenty of nerfs to particular xenos factions yet Imperials got to keep all their toys was one of the big reasons. Oh and by the way its 4/16 armies above so 25% of the armies were Imperial, War Convocation and Ad Mech last time I checked were pretty Imperial.
Hey guys... is there a consensus for how many Tetra are worth owning or fitting into most TAC lists? I see FW sells them in pairs, and the unit can be run as 1-4 Tetra.
I am thinking of buying two sets of two... is that a good choice that I will field fairly often? Should I run them as two units?
First of all, it's absurd to claim that things like Ad Mech or whatever are Imperium. Yes, they're imperial armies but they're so different from the others, and really don't get allied in super friends as often if at all.
Secondly, Space Marine factions don't get nerfed as often (yes they lose things but in secondary ways) because they're generally the most balanced. They do a little of everything, but don't have any super special rules or niches, which means they'll never have one thing that makes them too good like other factions, so many small tertiary nerfs are enough.
Finally, here's the top ten ranked players of the LVO and what armies they play:
1.) Orks, Demons, one game eldar
2.) Agents, Tyranids
3.) Space Marines, Eldar
4.) Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Marines
5.) Eldar, Tau
6.) Edlar, Space Marines
7.) Agents, Eldar, Tau
8.) Orks
9.) Demons, Eldar, Grey Knights, Tyranids
10.) Imperial Guard
Yes, various marine factions pop up on there, but so do most armies. It's not unreasonable to see the most generically good army be there the most, it's also not wrong to see a lot of different Imperium armies because of how many there are. It's basic statistics really, and look at the only two players who only played one army the whole time, it's Orks and IG... Yea.
Edit: Extended it to the top 16 to be consistent with last years top 16. Looks like Agents, which I'm guessing is the War Convocation/Ad Mech/Skitarii/whatever, is doing the best so far in the top 16, with Eldar being pretty comparable. I guess the ITC is Ad Mech and Eldar biased but not Marine biased? More so, what's not represented here, the SoBs and Dark Eldar? Oh, and I guess Blood Angels and Necrons. By your logic 50% of unrepresented armies are Imperium, and if you go to the top 20 instead of the top 16 you see two Necron players, one Dark Eldar Player, but no Blood Angels or SoBs... Guess Imperium isn't that great since they're the only ones not represented in top 20 at all, right?
Basically, right now you're looking at Tetras, Skyrays, and Drones (Net or Mark'O) as your primary marker sources. I haven't seen people use tetras, almost ever, but I've heard a lot of talk about them, so who knows.
Tinkrr wrote: Basically, right now you're looking at Tetras, Skyrays, and Drones (Net or Mark'O) as your primary marker sources. I haven't seen people use tetras, almost ever, but I've heard a lot of talk about them, so who knows.
I think you're right that they tend to be outclassed in versatility and durability per markerlight by the Skyray, outclassed in pure markerlights per point by the drone net, and surpassed in both by the drone commander, especially if you give him the iridium armor. 4 2+ woinds is nothing to sniff at when you're likely hugging cover and LOS-ing that las cannon shot to some mook who is going to take a cover save most of the time.
A lesser-used source would be the sniper teams, since they can also do the drone commander for cheaper. I think your best
Best is Mark'O unless you're just running formations that don't need the commander. Because honestly, what else are you going to do with him unless you're running farsight bomb and want a true buffmander?
Tetras are pretty good, but are really fragile. If something with sufficient strength or volume of fire attacks them, you're forced to jink which ruins their ability to land marker hits in the future. The skyray mitigates this by having armor 13 and the ability to hide behind ruins for a 3+ cover save with the disruption pod. Marker Drones are my favorite because of how mobile they are in comparison to pathfinders and have a 4+ save.
Tinkrr wrote: Basically, right now you're looking at Tetras, Skyrays, and Drones (Net or Mark'O) as your primary marker sources. I haven't seen people use tetras, almost ever, but I've heard a lot of talk about them, so who knows.
I think you're right that they tend to be outclassed in versatility and durability per markerlight by the Skyray, outclassed in pure markerlights per point by the drone net, and surpassed in both by the drone commander, especially if you give him the iridium armor. 4 2+ woinds is nothing to sniff at when you're likely hugging cover and LOS-ing that las cannon shot to some mook who is going to take a cover save most of the time.
A lesser-used source would be the sniper teams, since they can also do the drone commander for cheaper. I think your best
Best is Mark'O unless you're just running formations that don't need the commander. Because honestly, what else are you going to do with him unless you're running farsight bomb and want a true buffmander?
I think that's mostly it, the auxiliary choice is usually a drone net or a drone team (for regular Hunter), and then it's just really easy to get a Mark'O in there. The other Commanders are pretty specialized and cost a lot of points, even if I just run mine with weapons hoping to roll certain Warlord traits, and if not I can still use him, though I've considered making it a Mark'O.
Skyrays are super point efficient if you have a regular CAD, but are hard to take in anything else.
The Tetras are good, as long as that's what you want exactly, but don't want drones or a Mark'O for some reason. The new formations really made Tetras a lot less of an obvious option. Even then you can honestly consider something like Remoras, though that's going a bit deep.
CKO wrote: WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.
I'd say there's a spectrum, as there's clearly a general best to worst range, but when looking at it the top choices are list dependent. The one thing I can say for sure is Pathfinders are just a bad choice for Markers these days, and Tetras are slowly being edged out.
Tinkrr wrote: First of all, it's absurd to claim that things like Ad Mech or whatever are Imperium. Yes, they're imperial armies but they're so different from the others, and really don't get allied in super friends as often if at all.
So an army that is a faction of the Imperium that is battle brothers with all of the other Imperial armies, how in the hell is it absurd to claim that it is Imperium? It's not absurd, whether you like it or not they are all listed under Imperium and are different kinds of Imperial armies. That's like saying demons and Chaos Space Marines don't belong to chaos it makes zero sense.
And talk about butchering my logic, it's pretty clear from that list you posted up that a good chunk of the armies are Imperial armies. If ITC had decided to nerf the Space Marine decurion along with the xenos factions in some way shape or form it wouldn't nearly be as much of an issue, however from all of the different things that were"voted" on ( and have seen plenty of issue with how the voting process went down) it just seems that Imperium get the benefit of the doubt way too often. We don't have to like ITC, just because we don't you don't have to get upset about it.
I forgot about pathfinders dont take them for marker lights.
Although for 89 points you can get 6 str 6 ap 1 shots outflanking with a range of 21 inches from the board edge. I don't know how good that is but I am trying to make an msu style list work with our formations and I already have piranhas and stealth suits and drones so its kinda useful I dont know what you guys think?
Tinkrr wrote: First of all, it's absurd to claim that things like Ad Mech or whatever are Imperium. Yes, they're imperial armies but they're so different from the others, and really don't get allied in super friends as often if at all.
So an army that is a faction of the Imperium that is battle brothers with all of the other Imperial armies, how in the hell is it absurd to claim that it is Imperium? It's not absurd, whether you like it or not they are all listed under Imperium and are different kinds of Imperial armies. That's like saying demons and Chaos Space Marines don't belong to chaos it makes zero sense.
And talk about butchering my logic, it's pretty clear from that list you posted up that a good chunk of the armies are Imperial armies. If ITC had decided to nerf the Space Marine decurion along with the xenos factions in some way shape or form it wouldn't nearly be as much of an issue, however from all of the different things that were"voted" on ( and have seen plenty of issue with how the voting process went down) it just seems that Imperium get the benefit of the doubt way too often. We don't have to like ITC, just because we don't you don't have to get upset about it.
Ok, let's ask this question, how often are Agents list allied with Marines? As in, what events brought Ad Mech/Skitarri/etc allied with marines at 1850 using the LVO rules.
Now how often are CSM and Demons allied?
Edit: I'll give you a hint, Taudar are a bigger thing the Mech-rines (Mar-Ad?) , by a pretty big margin.
I love my Tetras, they work great for me. The combination of quick, relocating markers (move+range total 48") and their low profile (so they rarely jink) make them very versitile. As a fast skimmer they grab remote objectives in a pinch. Don't overlook being able to outflank a squadron 12" in and have a nice bubble from their homing beacons. I prefer to run mine in two packs. For under the cost of a Skyray you can get 3, and due to their Twin-Linked Markerlights, should hit fliers about as often, with the potential for a few more. I think Tinkrr is right, the best marker units depend on the list. As someone who generally lothes Pathfinders (although the Ranged Support Cadre ones seem OK) I lean on Tetras heavily.
Technically the only FW model i have is R'alai, the other 2 are commander proxies. But i've heard nothing but praise about Tetras so i dont know what the hesitating about bringing them is about.
Yeah theyre fragile but theyre 36" and can move 12" before firing. Even pathfinders tend to live awhile when they hide behind your army, but pathfinders dont have Jink to fall back on (considering for me, usually my pathfinders are in the open, 5+ cover, or in front of my army in ruins/rubble which kinda counters the 4+ cover).
Main issue i see is they mandate a CAD. For me, not a problem since i usually have a CAD anyway, but for some people i could see that being a problem since 1850pts goes away really damn fast when you use more than 1 formation (i.e. hunter cont. requirements)
Part of me hopes FW releases a statement saying "Any FW Model may be taken in a formation the model they closely resemble instead of the original model" but im also glad that never happened lol. Oh man the lists would explode with cheese...imagine taking 3 R'varnas in a Riptide Wing or abusing the "repairing" rules of the Piranha Wing with Tetras lol.
The issue with Pathfinders isn't even how well they survive, but how they can't move and shoot Markers. It's just that when you park them in a place, if the board is set up well the opponent has all the power when positioning against them, and then you're kind of stuck. Mark'Os, Drone Nets, and more just don't have this issue.
More so, the ITC has been moving towards more terrain that doesn't have windows where you can just ignore terrain, so that's a factor too.
I am taking them for str 6 ap 1 shots which is a rapid fire weapon so they could move. As a markerlight source they are not good there are better sources.
I just found out that the number 1 ITC Tau player was going to play the piranha formation at LVO but now he has to play something different! After he has painted up several piranhas and drones!
as much as i love the Rail/Ion rifle, i just hate how you cant get a full squad of them and its only for Pathfinders. I really, really, really wish they gave Firewarrior Shas'uis access to it.
Pulse Carbines do not synergise with those two guns at all. Rail rifles want to abuse their AP, which makes the pulse carbines not do that much. Ion rifles make more sense, but then you factor in the range difference.
Worse yet, 5+ armor. 5+....armor.... they never get their armor save so the moment they get shot at outside of cover they die instantly. And if they are being offensive with short range guns, odds are they wont have cover alot of the time. Or get charged.
Still dont get why they dont have Moves Through Cover and Stealth, since theyre..yaknow...the scouts for the army?
Well yea, the Piranha formation was stupidly broken if you did the math, it's still fine as a replenishing Seeker platform, and why I'll probably run it as such. Plus I just like the models.
Tinkrr wrote: Well yea, the Piranha formation was stupidly broken if you did the math, it's still fine as a replenishing Seeker platform, and why I'll probably run it as such. Plus I just like the models.
Do the math and tell me how its broken.
Turn 1 = 0 benefit if you buy that many piranhas normally you get that many drones
Turn 2 = 140 points on the field when you paid 200 points = 60 point decrease
Turn 3 = 280 points on the field = 80 point advantage on turn 3
Turn 4= 220 point advantage on turn 4
Turn 5=360 point advantage on turn 5 same turn the game ends
You start to see the point advantage on turn 3 but it is literally 80 points, wow!
Turn 4 is when you start to see the power of the formation that means your opponent has 2 turns to defend himself from the drones!
16 piranha with no upgrades is 640pts. Turn 1 they dump 32 gun drones and leave. Turn 2 they dump off another 32 gun drones and leave. Turn 3 ... Turn 4... Turn 5....
In the end its 160-224 gun drones depending on the number of turns. Only way to counter it is with interceptor and wiping out the entire squad, which even tau would struggle with across the damn table. Dont underestimate gun drones. Even if you dont take the Drone Net to make them BS3 (which is kinda mandatory) thats a LOT of mobile, moderately durable, painful units that are not worth any points per vehicle and drone rules. For free, and no test or anything.
Even the measly 10 drones my 5 piranhas dump off i use as a mobile wall tends to do a ton more damage than i ever expect them to do.
Weight of dice wins games. Str5 can hurt T8 too, and since theyre literally worth nothing to lose you dont have to worry about losing them to cockblock things.
Tinkrr wrote: Well yea, the Piranha formation was stupidly broken if you did the math, it's still fine as a replenishing Seeker platform, and why I'll probably run it as such. Plus I just like the models.
Do the math and tell me how its broken.
Ok, so how much is a Piranha, 40 points, how much are drones 12 points for war gear and 14 for the drones themselves. That means the Piranha is 40 - 24/28, meaning it's 16-12 points base.
Now we can assume the drones are war gear, not independent drones. Meaning that each Piranha produces 24 points of drones a turn.
Let's assume you take a maximum wing of Piranha, that's 640pts for 16 Piranha or 384 points a turn of free drones. Now we can both agree that 640 isn't that much of your army, it's not nothing, but it's not more than half your list either at 1850, but more so, if we drag that across three turns, assuming the last turn you use your Piranha for more than Drone Spawning, because you assume you will end on turn 4, that means you've made 1152 points of free drones, that's much more than 50% of your army points. Remember, that's 1152 points free, not counting the drones on the Piranha that last turn, you can easily double the points of your army if the game goes any longer than 4 turns, for free.
Don't forget, if you're doing the drone spawn thing, you're bringing a Drone Net, meaning those Drones are just Fire Warriors.
So yea, let's look at the math, is 1152 points of free units not broken? Is playing 3002 points in an 1850 game, or even 3700 points in an 1850 game, fair? Even if those extra points are Jet Pack Fire Warriors with better toughness? More so, remember, those Piranha couldn't be shot, ever, unless you had EWO type systems because they could come on, drop off drones, and then leave the table all in the same turn.
Turn 1 doesnt count you get those drones by default!
Turn 2 is when you start to count extra drones.
If you make a change to say you cant leave turn 1 pushes this chart back by 1 turn and the formation can be used but its not as daunting!
5 piranhas 200 points
Turn 1 = 0 benefit if you buy that many piranhas normally you get that many drones
Turn 2 = 140 points on the field when you paid 200 points = 60 point decrease
Turn 3 = 280 points on the field = 80 point advantage on turn 3
Turn 4= 220 point advantage on turn 4
Turn 5=360 point advantage on turn 5 same turn the game ends
If you include the drone network thats 864 points!
Except you make drones turn one, and the move out from turn one. It's turn 4 or 5 that you don't make drones, which is what I'm basing my calculations on. We're both giving away a free turn, it's just more important when that turn is given away, as you'll start spawning turn one, and not spawn only on the turn you think it will end, or you'll spawn and it will end, and that's the wave you lose out on, the first wave you're gaining.
You also go with a minimal unit, and still end up with a huge point lead, shifting turn one to zero. Imagine if you take a maximum unit, it's not that expensive and produces that much more power.
Even if you assume the drones are just Fire Warriors, and count them at 9points a model, with a maximum Piranha wing, spawning for three turns (count it from first or last being lost) you're generating 864 points of free stuff. That's 47% of your total points (Sorry, total starting points, not points after the free stuff) in free stuff at 1850...
Edit: Turn four is when you move on and don't spawn drones but rather try to deny line breaker or whatever if you think it will end. Though imagine if it goes those six turns, jeez.
But if you paid for piranhas normally would you get the drones? So the formation special rules has nothing to do with you getting the first patch of drones. In your scenario turn 2 and 3 is when you produce the drones meaning 280 points worth of free drones if you let the drones off its 420 since your staying on the board for turn 4.
You are almost making it sound like you're factoring in the piranha's cost multiple times. Even at 5 piranhas, thats 140pts of drones per turn. 140pts that are worth no victory conditions so theyre not only powerful enough to be a threat, but are worthless to dump weapons on to remove. Yes the initial 10 gun drones would be brought outside of the formation anyway. That makes turn 2 140pt bonus, not 80, because now you have 20 gun drones. The opponent can kill them, but that just feeds my point about it being worthless to kill them objectively.
I field 5 piranhas outside the formation regularly as a mobile wall of annoyance. The 5 piranhas and the 10 gun drones are a massive thorn because they HAVE to be dealt with or they will murder your face off/give me army-wide 5+ cover. Every single person ive played this against has told me they feel like theyre wasting time killing those two units off to get at my better units, but at the same time they cant ignore them.
Thanks guys. I do very much appreciate the depth of thought. To provide further info, and further questions...
I was looking at Tetras as a good generalist Markerlight source that could also be very mobile. I'm very new to the army (assembling my first units now) despite playing 40k forever, so while I have budgeted to buy a fairly large amount over the course of the year, I don't currently have enough Marker Drones to run the Drone Net, and still run things like Ghostkeel or Riptides that come with their own Drones as well.
I'm not familiar with the Skyray or what you guys are calling Mark'O though. Any insights?
And as questions go... I am finding that Tau seem to have so so so much more overlap of unit function than any army I have played. Their optimal anti-tank, or anti-personal, etc... seem to have a ton of options. IE... if I plan to play in a 2+ save environment, i've got Riptides, i've got Y'vahra, etc...
Is this a typical thing for Tau? I am so used to armies where one unit definitively fills a role.
Tau typically sport more AP2 weapons than most armies, and they can get it in every force slot except Troop. So yeah they have a lot of overlapping roles, but theres only so many "roles" when the army is entirely shooty and no assaulty. Only reason the Ghostkeels can be in assault is because of MC rules and unlike riptides theyre cheap enough to put multiples in a unit and not suffer from it (also in thanks to the coversave protection).
Mark'O is a term used to describe a Commander with a Drone Controller. He makes any gun, marker, or sniper drones in his unit BS5. You attach a random commander to a squad of Markerdrones for 4-8 or however many you want BS5 Markerdrones.
Skyrays are one of our tanks. They are a seekermissile boat, sporting 6 of them. They also have SMS for free (no reason to ever not take it) and have 2 Networked markerlights (meaning he can benefit from his own markerlights) attached to his missile rack. Theyre expensive for dedicated markerlight use, but once they dump their missiles thats their main function is additional markerlights.
Also remember Riptides dont come with drones by default. They are 25pts each and are a complete waste of points. I dont even have mine assembled lol
---
Anybody know why people hate SMS so badly? I hear more rage about SMS than i do broadsides which is kinda sad lol. S5 AP5, 4 shots, usually twinlinked, 30" range and ignore cover/ignore LoS. I dont get why people think this gun is so OP because it has indirect fire. Literally everything that can get one also has another gun thats vastly more powerful that gets wasted if we use the indirect fire. Riptide: HBC or IA is far, far more powerful than an SMS. No way in hell im not firing it to fire indirect with SMS. Hammerhead: Ion Cannon or Railgun...again vastly more powerful Firewarrior's turret: Has to fire with the rest of the unit, meaning 1-12 Pulse Rifles or Carbines dont do a damn thing. The rate of fire loss is way more painful to us than the indirect is to you. Skyray: Before seekers: if you dont want to use seekers, i can see it, but we lose the 2 BS4 markerlights then. After seekers: same mentality but no worry about not getting to use the seekers since theyre already used. Stormsurge: ok this one actually CAN use it thanks to GMC rules, but the SMS is probably the lowest threat this thing has.
Thats all that can get it. Skyrays are the closest we got to using it indirectly without suffering from not firing the other weapons and isnt a GMC. Its not like we can buy it on our crisis suits for 20pts each or something and abuse the sight to hell. Why is this weapon flamed so damn badly?
Thanks so much Vineheart. I needed to spend a little more time reading the Codex and thinking about list-building. I know you might laugh, but it is weird being spoiled for riches. Having to actually think and make my own choices in list-building is refreshing, and exciting.
If I may ask... is there a general sense of how many Markerlight sources are good in MOST lists?
I am liking what I see from the Skyrays, as Markerlights but also doubling as anti-air, or anti-MC, but love the thought of Tetras that happen to survive as zippy-fast objective grabbers.
Of course, if a Drone-Commander build is just plain best over-all, and I happen to own him anyway, I am not upset at having to NOT go buy three Skyrays or four Tetras. :-p
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as a general Marker Drone tactica... am I wrong in thinking more often than not they are left out in the open, or in area-terrain?
I ask because, as Heavy weapons, don't they end up snap-firing the entire game if you're trying to position them as needed? Doesn't that make the Markerlights on vehicle platforms significantly more useful?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as a general Marker Drone tactica... am I wrong in thinking more often than not they are left out in the open, or in area-terrain?
I ask because, as Heavy weapons, don't they end up snap-firing the entire game if you're trying to position them as needed? Doesn't that make the Markerlights on vehicle platforms significantly more useful?
Marker Drones are Jet Pack Infantry. Jet Pack Infantry is Relentless. Relentless allows units to move and fire Heavy Weapons without snapfiring. Rules are fun.
The amount of markerlights is the ever going decision. It heavily depends on WHAT markerlights you bring and how badly the rest of your army needs it.
The Mark'O strat is pretty much guaranteed marks, but only against one unit and its coming from one unit so it can be focus fired down. Dont solely depend on a Mark'O, you want either some tetras, pathfinders, or a backup drone squad to swap to when the current one takes damage. You pretty much have to playtest yourself to feel how many you need. Believe me, it hurts just as much having too many markerlights as it does having too little.
The main problem with the Mark'O is its a commander thats basically doing nothing. You can still give him Missile Pods and a Targetlock so he can at least fire at something, but thats a pretty lousy setup for such an expensive/high statline model. No signature systems, no BS5 fusions, etc etc. Well he can take signature systems but none of them really do anything if hes attached to marker drones.
I can't decide which is better, I've been struggling for the last week!
A riptide wing (2x Burst, 1x Ion) or a Y'vahra + 2 riptides (burst/ion? Burst/Burst?)
Is it fair to assume you will often get a re-roll for two of the three Riptides (based on coherency, attrition, flexibility etc.). The extra-turn shooting is also a huge plus.
Stand-alone, Y'vahra is the most powerful Riptide variant. It causes so much grief and is so damn hard to pin down, its rather opimo.
However the HBC riptide is NOT weak. Only reason people use IA over it is because IA doesnt have the nova risk or requirement while the HBC does. The formation drastically lowers that problem, making them pretty damn strong. 12 S6 Rending attacks can attack anything in the game...ive had them take out land raiders in 1 volley (admittedly a little unlikely but it can happen).
If i were to run the riptide wing i'd probably do 2HBC and 1IA. Only because one of my riptides has his IA hardfixed due to internal wirings from a botched lightup attempt, and i really dont feel like cutting it off to put the HBC option back in lol
CKO wrote: I forgot about pathfinders dont take them for marker lights.
Although for 89 points you can get 6 str 6 ap 1 shots outflanking with a range of 21 inches from the board edge. I don't know how good that is but... what you guys think?
It's very good. I do it all the time. I do it more expensively though. Some less imaginative sorts like to call me crazy for it and i'm okay with that as long as they accept the games outcome one way or the other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CKO wrote: I am taking them for str 6 ap 1 shots which is a rapid fire weapon so they could move. As a markerlight source they are not good there are better sources.
I just found out that the number 1 ITC Tau player was going to play the piranha formation at LVO but now he has to play something different! After he has painted up several piranhas and drones!
yip.
Imagine if he had planned on three Ghostkeels.
The LVO is probably fun, but I'm passing...again.
Every time i think i want to go to those kinds of things (or Adepticon, or NOVA or whatever), something like this happens and i am reminded of why I skipped them. I've gone to events as large as 100 players, 76 players, and 50 players and gone undefeated, so I always wonder what could have been if I went to a 250 person event. It's a logical thing to do if it were local, but it's a decision when it's not. Honestly though I think the journey is just not worth the aggravation. Who even remembers without googling it who won the last two (don't bother answering, no one will think you didn't google it). So winning it would be cool for all the obvious reasons but...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as a general Marker Drone tactica... am I wrong in thinking more often than not they are left out in the open, or in area-terrain?
I ask because, as Heavy weapons, don't they end up snap-firing the entire game if you're trying to position them as needed? Doesn't that make the Markerlights on vehicle platforms significantly more useful?
Marker Drones are Jet Pack Infantry. Jet Pack Infantry is Relentless. Relentless allows units to move and fire Heavy Weapons without snapfiring. Rules are fun.
Thanks man. Tau are definitely introducing me to a wealth of situations, options, and rules, I had no reason to encounter previously. Having barely played 40k for two years hasn't helped... but likewise has also helped me come back to the game refreshed and enthusiastic.
CKO wrote: WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.
sort of... Id say you can't really beat a drone net of 4x4 marker drones
It's a lot of points though, and potentially too many markerlights. For example, one list that I'm going to run is a double OSC, with 6 ghostkeels....really don't need 16 markerlights haha
CKO wrote: WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.
sort of... Id say you can't really beat a drone net of 4x4 marker drones
It's a lot of points though, and potentially too many markerlights. For example, one list that I'm going to run is a double OSC, with 6 ghostkeels....really don't need 16 markerlights haha
Well alright, but what else are you running? I mean it could easily be right to just not take the Net and just one unit of drones plus a Mark'O or just a Skyray or two, but you have to admit, the Drone Net can still be good even in a double OSC list, which just punctuates how rather powerful it is.
I think one of the best parts about the Drone Formation that always makes it worth taking is the fact that they all have Skyfire. I have a surprisingly large number of Tyranid, Chaos Demons, Crimson Hunter spam in my local meta and these things have been a god send in countering it.
gmaleron wrote: I think one of the best parts about the Drone Formation that always makes it worth taking is the fact that they all have Skyfire. I have a surprisingly large number of Tyranid, Chaos Demons, Crimson Hunter spam in my local meta and these things have been a god send in countering it.
The Drone Net doesn't have Skyfire on its own D:
They get: Interceptor, jink, outflank, precision shot, and split fire. Granted, the Interceptor rule is really good for EWO plays as it takes away the main weakness of those, and Jink is no joke.
Edit: It also makes Missile Drones a lot better on Broadsides, especially if you're running a Ret Cad and have relentless Broadsides.
gmaleron wrote: I think one of the best parts about the Drone Formation that always makes it worth taking is the fact that they all have Skyfire. I have a surprisingly large number of Tyranid, Chaos Demons, Crimson Hunter spam in my local meta and these things have been a god send in countering it.
The Drone Net doesn't have Skyfire on its own D:
They get: Interceptor, jink, outflank, precision shot, and split fire. Granted, the Interceptor rule is really good for EWO plays as it takes away the main weakness of those, and Jink is no joke.
Edit: It also makes Missile Drones a lot better on Broadsides, especially if you're running a Ret Cad and have relentless Broadsides.
Out of curiosity, do people like Vector Tracker on the Stormsurge? Beyond its potential D-missiles, is its 4D6 shots going to do much at STR-5? Against Flyrants I can see it doing ok on volume of fire, but is it too low S to do much against most flyers?
Vector Trackers isnt a selective Skyfire, its all or nothing. Skyfire is normally a stock rule that makes you fire snaps at non-fliers/skimmers/FMCs in exchange for firing normally against the same unit types. Vector Trackers lets us squeak by the rules and lets us turn it off, which normally isnt allowed.
If you "turn it on" then all of the Stormsurge weapons have skyfire, including his 72" S10 Ap2 Ord Large Blast gun. Now, unless theres a Skimmer somewhere, he cant use that gun (or the Pulse Blast Cannon outside 10", which is also blasts) that turn. That hurts. The 4D6 +4 S5 shots can cause some hurt to a lot of fliers but its primarily glancing to death, and still cant hurt Av12. Personally i'd rather not fire a D missile at a flier, if theres no other targets then i'll just risk it but ive yet to never have a ground-target i want to shoot a D missile at.
The main fliers youre going to have to deal with are AV12. Even outside the OSC, a Ghostkeel or two with VT will kill any flier faster than the Stormsurge can (since you still need markerlights to fire the D missile, even if you have Skyfire, meaning you could still get unlucky and never land a single mark on the flier)
Fun thing I learned about the ITC today, if you're a main detachment is a Dawnblade, your CAD can have Crisis Suit troops. Here's the list I'm watching in the LVO now:
Spoiler:
Israel Sanchez’s List
Tau Formation-Based Detachment (Farsight Enclaves)
had a moment of "wait...i feel like i forgot something big" about VT.
in 6th, if you had Interceptor you ignored the firing snapshots at ground units. I just checked the 7th brb to see if thats still there. Damn, it isnt, they took that bit out.
That would have completely torn my previous post to shreds, since a Stormsurge without EWO is sorta unheard of.
Vineheart01 wrote: The amount of markerlights is the ever going decision. It heavily depends on WHAT markerlights you bring and how badly the rest of your army needs it.
The Mark'O strat is pretty much guaranteed marks, but only against one unit and its coming from one unit so it can be focus fired down. Dont solely depend on a Mark'O, you want either some tetras, pathfinders, or a backup drone squad to swap to when the current one takes damage. You pretty much have to playtest yourself to feel how many you need. Believe me, it hurts just as much having too many markerlights as it does having too little.
The main problem with the Mark'O is its a commander thats basically doing nothing. You can still give him Missile Pods and a Targetlock so he can at least fire at something, but thats a pretty lousy setup for such an expensive/high statline model. No signature systems, no BS5 fusions, etc etc. Well he can take signature systems but none of them really do anything if hes attached to marker drones.
Not sure but what a Mark'O can make decent use of a Puretide chip. Having Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter could help his missiles at least kill something decent. 25 points is a lot to only benefit a single model, but if you have a Crisis unit or something for him to join when the drones get boned (which they inevitably will), I would think it could make a difference. Also, the Iridium Suit upgrade could make him able to tank hits with his 2+ save, and if he were near death those drones could dive in front of the bullets on a 2+.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...
It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.
Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.
CKO wrote: Veloticty tracker gives you the option to fire as if you have sky fire. Basically you don't have to worry about that ruling vineheart01.
Read my post at the top of the page. Thats the problem with it on Stormy.
Supers are not given special permission. You declare you are using Skyfire at the start of the shooting phase.
If the old Interceptor + Skyfire was still a thing, then my point would be invalid. Its not that he cant use it, its that his primary gun majority of the time wont get used.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...
It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.
Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.
I do not get it. Care to elaborate? You mean the allied CAD gaining formation benefits?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...
It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.
Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.
I do not get it. Care to elaborate? You mean the allied CAD gaining formation benefits?
Well the Dawnblade "mark" thing is worded such that it benefits all units in the army, not just ones from that detachment. More so, all of a sudden your CAD can use Crisis Suits as troops, I didn't really consider it as something you could do, but now all of a sudden a CAD becomes a lot better for a mech army, since you don't really need anything to take one of those, you can just run more specialty suits and a Mark'O in it, then take whatever else you could desire.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...
It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.
Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.
I do not get it. Care to elaborate? You mean the allied CAD gaining formation benefits?
Well the Dawnblade "mark" thing is worded such that it benefits all units in the army, not just ones from that detachment. More so, all of a sudden your CAD can use Crisis Suits as troops, I didn't really consider it as something you could do, but now all of a sudden a CAD becomes a lot better for a mech army, since you don't really need anything to take one of those, you can just run more specialty suits and a Mark'O in it, then take whatever else you could desire.
So you are saying that the killing blow special rule can also be used by units other than the ones in a Dawn Blade? I started a YMDC thread regarding that rule and it seems like it is only the detachment that gets the special rule.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/674764.page#8346960
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...
It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.
Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.
I do not get it. Care to elaborate? You mean the allied CAD gaining formation benefits?
Well the Dawnblade "mark" thing is worded such that it benefits all units in the army, not just ones from that detachment. More so, all of a sudden your CAD can use Crisis Suits as troops, I didn't really consider it as something you could do, but now all of a sudden a CAD becomes a lot better for a mech army, since you don't really need anything to take one of those, you can just run more specialty suits and a Mark'O in it, then take whatever else you could desire.
So you are saying that the killing blow special rule can also be used by units other than the ones in a Dawn Blade? I started a YMDC thread regarding that rule and it seems like it is only the detachment that gets the special rule.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/674764.page#8346960
Honestly, I'm not sure, the wording is super murky on that, even though the actually thing makes it sound like it's just a general de-buff. Furthermore, this is a problem with not having a more defined rule set, since some people can argue under one rule set, while others will argue under another rule set in YMDC, which leads to both being right and wrong, based on which you are referring to.
What's more strange is the wording of the Crisis Suit Troops, which states "In a Farsight Enclaves Detachment or Formation, XV8 Crisis Battlsuits are Troops choices instead of Elites choices." Which makes it sound like an allied CAD would not benefit from this, but that list is clearly legal in the LVO, meaning that they do. So does this translate to the other rules as a whole, or only in some cases? I'd say this would be a good FAQ question for the ITC.
That's not unreasonable, but why does the CAD gain the Crisis Suit Troops special rule? I guess there's a difference between detachment and army, so depending where the rules are listed in the supplement, is how vastly they apply.
X078 wrote: Any Tau CAD can be declared as Farsight thus gaining crisis as troops and farsight wargear etc.
True but its more expansive than that.
Specifically, any Detachment or Formation can be said to be a Farsight Enclave Detachment or Formation. So not just CAD's. However if they do, it does mean they also have to use the Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives from Mont'Ka. They also HAVE to purchase Bonding Knives.
And of course making Crisis Suits Troops doesnt necessarily make them Objective Secured. That still is a Command Benefit you have to get from the Detachment. So its useful in certain Detachments like a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD).
If you don't mind all that then go for it. Lots of benefit.
.
Thanks for the VT thoughts. I've been worried about being too light anti-air, but realize my 2-3 Ghost Keels in a OSC with VT will probably be plenty all on their own.
Thanks jancoran, that was what I wanted to confirm. Just prefer full suit tau. Too bad fse had gakky sig systems:( still suits list prevail to me Sig systems for me
No Tau in the top 8 of the LVO, there were two players competing for top 8 the last round, one running a CAD with double Stormsurge and one running FSE with Ghostkeels and some Eldar allies. The FSE list was Table 3 and lost to PJPants (person predicted to win the ITC this year) who is running demons, while the Stormsurge player lost to Necrons on Table 4.
I'm sad to see no Tau making top 8, but they were very close, they just fell slightly short to some very strong players. The amazing thing is that there are multiple Necron players in the Top 8, with very different lists, despite Necrons not doing much of note otherwise.
Tinkrr wrote: No Tau in the top 8 of the LVO, there were two players competing for top 8 the last round, one running a CAD with double Stormsurge and one running FSE with Ghostkeels and some Eldar allies. The FSE list was Table 3 and lost to PJPants (person predicted to win the ITC this year) who is running demons, while the Stormsurge player lost to Necrons on Table 4.
I'm sad to see no Tau making top 8, but they were very close, they just fell slightly short to some very strong players. The amazing thing is that there are multiple Necron players in the Top 8, with very different lists, despite Necrons not doing much of note otherwise.
Lots of surprise.
Necrons are good. It's no surprise they do well in capable hands. then again, that's pretty much true of most armies.
The Codex, as I've mentioned many a times, wins no games. You do.
Tinkrr wrote: No Tau in the top 8 of the LVO, there were two players competing for top 8 the last round, one running a CAD with double Stormsurge and one running FSE with Ghostkeels and some Eldar allies. The FSE list was Table 3 and lost to PJPants (person predicted to win the ITC this year) who is running demons, while the Stormsurge player lost to Necrons on Table 4.
I'm sad to see no Tau making top 8, but they were very close, they just fell slightly short to some very strong players. The amazing thing is that there are multiple Necron players in the Top 8, with very different lists, despite Necrons not doing much of note otherwise.
Lots of surprise.
Necrons are good. It's no surprise they do well in capable hands. then again, that's pretty much true of most armies.
The Codex, as I've mentioned many a times, wins no games. You do.
Well sure, but there were plenty of hands using them before, it's just they weren't placing, but now all of a sudden they did very well. One list ran a bunch of odd ball stuff like an Obelisk and Monolith.
Tinkrr wrote: No Tau in the top 8 of the LVO, there were two players competing for top 8 the last round, one running a CAD with double Stormsurge and one running FSE with Ghostkeels and some Eldar allies. The FSE list was Table 3 and lost to PJPants (person predicted to win the ITC this year) who is running demons, while the Stormsurge player lost to Necrons on Table 4.
I'm sad to see no Tau making top 8, but they were very close, they just fell slightly short to some very strong players. The amazing thing is that there are multiple Necron players in the Top 8, with very different lists, despite Necrons not doing much of note otherwise.
Lots of surprise.
Necrons are good. It's no surprise they do well in capable hands. then again, that's pretty much true of most armies.
The Codex, as I've mentioned many a times, wins no games. You do.
Well sure, but there were plenty of hands using them before, it's just they weren't placing, but now all of a sudden they did very well. One list ran a bunch of odd ball stuff like an Obelisk and Monolith.
Tinkrr wrote: No Tau in the top 8 of the LVO, there were two players competing for top 8 the last round, one running a CAD with double Stormsurge and one running FSE with Ghostkeels and some Eldar allies. The FSE list was Table 3 and lost to PJPants (person predicted to win the ITC this year) who is running demons, while the Stormsurge player lost to Necrons on Table 4.
I'm sad to see no Tau making top 8, but they were very close, they just fell slightly short to some very strong players. The amazing thing is that there are multiple Necron players in the Top 8, with very different lists, despite Necrons not doing much of note otherwise.
Lots of surprise.
Necrons are good. It's no surprise they do well in capable hands. then again, that's pretty much true of most armies.
The Codex, as I've mentioned many a times, wins no games. You do.
Well sure, but there were plenty of hands using them before, it's just they weren't placing, but now all of a sudden they did very well. One list ran a bunch of odd ball stuff like an Obelisk and Monolith.
Though the player was running a Decurion with an Obelisk, and Monolith, so it's quite different from your list, and they did place in the top 8 of the LVO with an army that's strong but hasn't been putting up results in recent history. The other player was running "The Pink Decurion, Destroyer Cult, Royal Court, C. Harvest" so you know still vastly different.
Tinkrr wrote: No Tau in the top 8 of the LVO, there were two players competing for top 8 the last round, one running a CAD with double Stormsurge and one running FSE with Ghostkeels and some Eldar allies. The FSE list was Table 3 and lost to PJPants (person predicted to win the ITC this year) who is running demons, while the Stormsurge player lost to Necrons on Table 4.
I'm sad to see no Tau making top 8, but they were very close, they just fell slightly short to some very strong players. The amazing thing is that there are multiple Necron players in the Top 8, with very different lists, despite Necrons not doing much of note otherwise.
Lots of surprise.
Necrons are good. It's no surprise they do well in capable hands. then again, that's pretty much true of most armies.
The Codex, as I've mentioned many a times, wins no games. You do.
Well sure, but there were plenty of hands using them before, it's just they weren't placing, but now all of a sudden they did very well. One list ran a bunch of odd ball stuff like an Obelisk and Monolith.
Though the player was running a Decurion with an Obelisk, and Monolith, so it's quite different from your list, and they did place in the top 8 of the LVO with an army that's strong but hasn't been putting up results in recent history. The other player was running "The Pink Decurion, Destroyer Cult, Royal Court, C. Harvest" so you know still vastly different.
I like the variety I'm hearing. It gratifies me greatly to know that good Generalship is having its usual effect. One hopes more armies like these do well.
Not so surprising actually, Necrons are super durable and tough, especially so in the hands of a good player. Some of the other xeno armies have some of their strengths in many of the now (in ITC etc) nerfed and wrongly perceived "op" units/rules. This is why i believe everyone should game without restrictions like proper D strenght, invis, multi LoW, Coordinated Firepower etc because when faced with a well played counter it is not "op" in any way. Tau not making it just reinforces this i believe.
X078 wrote: Not so surprising actually, Necrons are super durable and tough, especially so in the hands of a good player. Some of the other xeno armies have some of their strengths in many of the now (in ITC etc) nerfed and wrongly perceived "op" units/rules. This is why i believe everyone should game without restrictions like proper D strenght, invis, multi LoW, Coordinated Firepower etc because when faced with a well played counter it is not "op" in any way. Tau not making it just reinforces this i believe.
So far well played Necrons, well played.
But knowing they have done well, we as Tau Generals need to pay close attention to how we can best serve them unremitting loses after this. hehehe.
I love how the ITC panic-mode nerf-called Ghost-Keels for fear of what it could do, but no one scoffed at the Top 8 list that has 45 Warp Spiders in it. :-p
They already nerfed the spiders to only once per shooting phase if I remember right. Still the free movement is better than a single unit having to snap fire once per game per model.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...
It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.
Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.
It's not tied to the main list being Dawnblade. Mont'ka allows for you to declare a CAD to be Farsight Enclaves, which moves Crisis Suits to Troops.
I intended to get a Ta'unar for massive games when i got my tax returns this year. My tax returns were a ....bit bigger... than i expected so i plan to abuse the free shipping and get something else too. problem is i really dont want to get all the options because thats insanely expensive..lol...
Originally i wanted to get some Hazard suits, but now i cant decide between them, an R'varna, or a Y'vahra. On one hand, i play mostly friendly games so i wouldnt even be using the Ta'unar that much as it is, which makes me lean more towards the Hazard suits because i think i'd use them more since they are by no means OPlol. R'varna or Y'vahra...my main fear is i may end up deciding theyre too powerful in friendly games and shelve them as often as the Ta'unar or the Stormsurge.
How powerful do you guys think the R'varna is? Ive never proxied him in, though i have proxied the Y'vahra a couple times and he wrecked face.
course i'd rather get a Barracuda but nope...ugh lol
I have the Ta'unar and it's a really nice model in every way. The yvara has super good rules but i find the design of the air intakes too "gothic-church"-like so no no for me .
Barracudas are nice but they don't produce them anymore so get som tetras maybe, besides Ta'unar/yvara.
when i proxied the y'vahra it jumped across the table turn 1 and instantly popped a Monolith without even batting an eye. Turn 2 it popped the other one sitting nearby, and turn 3 it jumped to the backfield and torched some Destroyers sitting in cover.
It killed more than 3x its cost in 3 turns. Hence why im kinda afraid its TOO good lol.
X078 wrote: Try proxy it against some more armies before deciding, Eldar with multi WK, imperial knights etc.
Actually i feel the Y'vahra would be weakest against Eldar because yea it has 3+D3 S8 AP3 attacks when he nova charges and 2 S6 AP2 flamer hits, but thats not amazing against T8 and its at 12" or closer. Hes bound to get charged, and even the one with the D cannons would eat him in melee.
Rvarna wouldnt pen the armor but at least he'd cause 6 hits at table range that wound on 4s.
I dont really consider either of them a viable option against WK. Then again, THAT player that fields 2-3 of them in a "casual" game i would be using the Ta'unar against and not feel like a dick. Ultimate cheese meets ultimate cheese lol
X078 wrote: Try proxy it against some more armies before deciding, Eldar with multi WK, imperial knights etc.
Actually i feel the Y'vahra would be weakest against Eldar because yea it has 3+D3 S8 AP3 attacks when he nova charges and 2 S6 AP2 flamer hits, but thats not amazing against T8 and its at 12" or closer. Hes bound to get charged, and even the one with the D cannons would eat him in melee.
Rvarna wouldnt pen the armor but at least he'd cause 6 hits at table range that wound on 4s.
I dont really consider either of them a viable option against WK. Then again, THAT player that fields 2-3 of them in a "casual" game i would be using the Ta'unar against and not feel like a dick. Ultimate cheese meets ultimate cheese lol
Yeah more 'typical' units like the GMC WK are more accepted, whilst the 4-wound Y'vahra is a t6 MC - just has a lot of very (short ranged) potent firepower, with lots of mobility.
Minor correction: the only people that find the WK acceptable are the people that field them. The rest of us know that they are 100-120 points undercosted.
As a Tau, Eldar & Tyranid player myself I actually don't mind the the Wraithknight or even multiple WK's. Them being good gives other armies a greater chance of recieving new awesome rules and units to compete further down the line.
Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.
gmaleron wrote: Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.
You are not alone, i love facing the most OP cheesefest possible, it just spurs me into enhancing my own lists and tactics further to the point i beat it. In fact i loathe facing the same tame lists again and again because it does not evolve my gaming.
gmaleron wrote: Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.
You are not alone, i love facing the most OP cheesefest possible, it just spurs me into enhancing my own lists and tactics further to the point i beat it. In fact i loathe facing the same tame lists again and again because it does not evolve my gaming.
But having overpowered units promotes seeing the same lists more than having everything balanced.
gmaleron wrote: Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.
You are not alone, i love facing the most OP cheesefest possible, it just spurs me into enhancing my own lists and tactics further to the point i beat it. In fact i loathe facing the same tame lists again and again because it does not evolve my gaming.
But having overpowered units promotes seeing the same lists more than having everything balanced.
Until that OP list loses to another op list which yet again changes the meta. It's basically a choice of how many toys you want to play with. Do you want to have the freedom of choosing, buying and playing with everything available? Or do you settle for a selection that someone else choose for you, either way each will have their own meta.
I prefer playing my opponent, not their army. In the end, it does matter what they bring. What matters is how I go about making less mistakes with what I bring.
X078 wrote: Do you want to have the freedom of choosing, buying and playing with everything available? Or do you settle for a selection that someone else choose for you, either way each will have their own meta.
If units were properly balanced for their points cost then everybody would have the freedom of choosing, buying and playing with everything available and having a fun game, without fracturing the player base.
As it is now there is little the Chaos Marine player can do to have any chance of winning against an Eldar player with multiple WK or scatter/spiderspam, short of playing a different army.
Big units which break the meta are only good when everyone gets access to them. As we've seen with the difference between the Eldar, SM, Necron and Tau codices compared to basically everything else, that is not the case.
For me, its about growing the hobby. Self indulgence is fine as far as it goes, and we all do it to some extent, but if I want newer players to be more interested in the hobby, the last thing that will get them there is the PERCEPTION that they simply can't afford to defeat me.
The thing to do as a Tau General, since that is the subject of this thread (ostensibly), is to build an army that can handle those things, without becoming one itself. I have a friend who went to LVO and he's been to some of my tournaments. He brought his Six Riptides and Drone factory list. I wished him luck of course and am happy he got to play with his big toys. But honestly i was disappointed that he did it.
He went 4-2 so he did well as one would expect, with a couple crushing victories and a couple times he got utterly crushed. I am glad he came out with a winning record. The whole team as a whole did well. I think a more fundamentally sound version of the same list might have served him better and maybe he will next year. These feast or famine affairs are not great though in that they don't just win, they tear a person in two in the games they win (as a rule). Yet lose just as badly. A more fundamentally sound list is a better list.
Jancoran wrote: For me, its about growing the hobby. Self indulgence is fine as far as it goes, and we all do it to some extent, but if I want newer players to be more interested in the hobby, the last thing that will get them there is the PERCEPTION that they simply can't afford to defeat me.
The thing to do as a Tau General, since that is the subject of this thread (ostensibly), is to build an army that can handle those things, without becoming one itself. I have a friend who went to LVO and he's been to some of my tournaments. He brought his Six Riptides and Drone factory list. I wished him luck of course and am happy he got to play with his big toys. But honestly i was disappointed that he did it.
He went 4-2 so he did well as one would expect, with a couple crushing victories and a couple times he got utterly crushed. I am glad he came out with a winning record. The whole team as a whole did well. I think a more fundamentally sound version of the same list might have served him better and maybe he will next year. These feast or famine affairs are not great though in that they don't just win, they tear a person in two in the games they win (as a rule). Yet lose just as badly. A more fundamentally sound list is a better list.
I wouldn't be disappointed in your friend. LVO, and other GTs are far from the place to be fluffy stewards of our great game. While it is tremendous when someone advances the meta (see last year's Lictorshame), most of the time it is about bringing the most cut-throat list possible. That isn't to say you shouldn't be a good sportsman, etc... but there is sadly no place for Firewarriors, or Hormgaunts, etc... at a GT right now.
I do feel what you are saying though. I am hyper competitive, however want to have fun, and ensure my opponents fun above all else. That has never been a problem before when playing my Grey Knights, or other fun armies, but Tau are the first army I have owned where I feel the need to restrain that little bit extra. If it means Pathfinders are my Markerlights for a while... so be it. I'll bring out the Y'vahra, etc... when my next real, seriously, event comes up.
Unless practicing for an event though, bringing a balls-out, optimized list for pick-up games just strikes me as uncool.
Jancoran wrote: For me, its about growing the hobby. Self indulgence is fine as far as it goes, and we all do it to some extent, but if I want newer players to be more interested in the hobby, the last thing that will get them there is the PERCEPTION that they simply can't afford to defeat me.
The thing to do as a Tau General, since that is the subject of this thread (ostensibly), is to build an army that can handle those things, without becoming one itself. I have a friend who went to LVO and he's been to some of my tournaments. He brought his Six Riptides and Drone factory list. I wished him luck of course and am happy he got to play with his big toys. But honestly i was disappointed that he did it.
He went 4-2 so he did well as one would expect, with a couple crushing victories and a couple times he got utterly crushed. I am glad he came out with a winning record. The whole team as a whole did well. I think a more fundamentally sound version of the same list might have served him better and maybe he will next year. These feast or famine affairs are not great though in that they don't just win, they tear a person in two in the games they win (as a rule). Yet lose just as badly. A more fundamentally sound list is a better list.
I wouldn't be disappointed in your friend. LVO, and other GTs are far from the place to be fluffy stewards of our great game. While it is tremendous when someone advances the meta (see last year's Lictorshame), most of the time it is about bringing the most cut-throat list possible. That isn't to say you shouldn't be a good sportsman, etc... but there is sadly no place for Firewarriors, or Hormgaunts, etc... at a GT right now.
I do feel what you are saying though. I am hyper competitive, however want to have fun, and ensure my opponents fun above all else. That has never been a problem before when playing my Grey Knights, or other fun armies, but Tau are the first army I have owned where I feel the need to restrain that little bit extra. If it means Pathfinders are my Markerlights for a while... so be it. I'll bring out the Y'vahra, etc... when my next real, seriously, event comes up.
Unless practicing for an event though, bringing a balls-out, optimized list for pick-up games just strikes me as uncool.
I don't know. I've been undefeated at big events and never have felt the need to do the netlist thing. Ask anyone who knows me this question: "Do Jancorans lists seem crazy to you?". See how many no's you get. It won't be many. Then ask them the second question: "Does he win?"
I have successfully proven though that you absolutely can go to a larger event and I'm not saying bring a cream puff list, but you can bring a list that does not APPEAR to be "one of those lists". And that's the goal. Because your opponent will at least have fun and look kindly on the experience of losing if they felt they were in it or if they got to face something different. If they never felt that way? I've had people act pretty morose at the table before. All they did all game was complain about power creep... while playing their 5E Blood Angels in 5E. Just saying. And my sportsmanship score gets affected. That almighty margin of victory became an albatross, not a help.
I also know how much I hated my first tournament win. I've always remembered it to this day, without much fondness because it was when the "massacre" scoring system was in place and you pretty much HAD to keep curb stomp people long after it was in good taste to do so in order to "get your massacre points".
I have found creativity and strategy to be my friends. I have placed skill as my paramount goal, and list building around strategy, instead of list building being my strategy. Plenty of people including my friend do not make that distinction but I do.
theres a difference between a challenge because the model in question, or unit, is just deadly as hell and flatout overpowered.
WK stats and guns are not overpowered at face value. T8 is a pain in the butt, but lack of a proper invul and sac'ing its D guns to get a 5++ and only 6 wounds makes it vastly "weaker" than other GMCs. However, its damn near HALF the cost of the other GMCs with -2 wounds and at best a only a 5++ which makes it spammable. Biotitan has more wounds and +1T, but it has a 6++ and afaik cant get a better one. Cost? 1000pts base. WK is only slightly easier to kill than a Biotitan...slightly being no Regen rules and about half the wounds...for a third the flippin cost if not less.
Thats why i hate WKs and hate facing them. Its the only damn thing in the game outside apoc forgeworld (including my ta'unar) that i flatout despise facing because its broken as hell. In massive games, different story, 2k or less something that cheap for what it brings shouldnt exist. Even scatbikes can be countered if you know what youre doing. WK? Gravs....otherwise 2x the cost of the WK to kill it reliably and probably in a trade so you cant kill 2.
I like fielding fun and usually unorthodox lists. Enigmas like the WK with its T8 and GMC rules prevent this as i am forced to dump about half my army just in case i see one, which leaves me wide open for either boring lists or other counters. WK shouldnt be cheaper than the Stormsurge when the only durability difference is +2 wounds and a 4++...T6 can be hurt by anything while T8 dodges a great chunk of damage by default. Im in the same boat as NewTruthNeomaxim that i'd rather fun for both players unless its tournament practice. I stopped bringing the Buffmander because of this and i feel ANY super shouldnt exist in a normal game unless agreed upon. Some people still ask if were using fliers and i dont consider them a debate anymore since fliers arent as insane as they used to be. Of course, theres 2 Eldar players in my area and both of them refuse to leave the WK at home. So any time i face them i bring out the big guns and usually they try to give me flak for it. I just say "The day you stop fielding 2-3 WKs in a 2k game is the day i stop bringing buffmander + Stormsurge in a Hunter Cont. lists" and ive yet to see them take me on with that offer. hell, i dont even remember the last time i fielded a Riptide, Broadside, or Buffmander except against said Eldar players.
Surprised that people actually play with 2 or 3 wraithknights. You either need that formation or triple CAD to get 3, the latter of which I feel is typically not allowed (and certainly isn't under the ITC rules, but LOW are also limited to 0-1 in those rules).
Have you tried just limiting the LOW choices to 0-1? I feel like that is a pretty reasonable thing, and I can't recall the last event I attended that allowed more than one.
Nope, cause typical Eldar players wont leave their WK at home. Theres a reason i tend to not play them much, they bring the same WK-spam list every time even if we list tailor to counter it just to piss them off that their almighty WK died.
Kinda part of the reason i have such a bad taste for Eldar players in general, its not just those 2 but theyre the main ones i come across. Before i moved to my current location, same crap, the Eldar player refused to leave behind whatever the most cheesiest thing they had at the time or at least not spam it. Used to be that gay as hell Council crap with reroll everything....or was that DE? been awhile since that was still a thing. Out of probably 15 different Eldar players ive ran across in a "friendly game" ive never faced a fun or fluffy eldar list, its always cheese spam. Even marine players leave the gravs at home for friendly games.
The moment we try to say "No supers" to them, they bring up the ever-so-overdone arguement that "I didnt ask for it to be GMC and paid the money for 3 of them so im going to use them!" ....yeah shutup you just want to curbstomp because you dont like a challenge.
Vineheart01 wrote: Nope, cause typical Eldar players wont leave their WK at home. Theres a reason i tend to not play them much, they bring the same WK-spam list every time even if we list tailor to counter it just to piss them off that their almighty WK died.
Kinda part of the reason i have such a bad taste for Eldar players in general, its not just those 2 but theyre the main ones i come across. Before i moved to my current location, same crap, the Eldar player refused to leave behind whatever the most cheesiest thing they had at the time or at least not spam it. Used to be that gay as hell Council crap with reroll everything....or was that DE? been awhile since that was still a thing. Out of probably 15 different Eldar players ive ran across in a "friendly game" ive never faced a fun or fluffy eldar list, its always cheese spam.
Even marine players leave the gravs at home for friendly games.
The moment we try to say "No supers" to them, they bring up the ever-so-overdone arguement that "I didnt ask for it to be GMC and paid the money for 3 of them so im going to use them!"
....yeah shutup you just want to curbstomp because you dont like a challenge.
Sucks that you have to play people who refuse to play anything but crazy competitive lists. The big Eldar player at my FLGS is actually notorious for bringing the worst things Eldar has to offer (not saying much, I know) and making it work. Again, woe is him, I know. But he's bringing like Rangers, war walkers...I can't think of any other truly subpar Eldar units haha.
But truly, the nice thing about 40k is that it's a social contract. Just play someone else if some dude brings 3 wraithknights and you don't want to deal with that. I get that they want to use those models, but I leave An'ggrath for use in apocalypse games, where he belongs. The same should be said of 3 gargantuan monstrous creatures at 1850-2000 points.
It's true, though, that you can just bring the D to wipe them off the table. Eventually, you're going to roll that 6. And the stormsurge has a lot of missiles that can be strength D. Toss in a VSG for alpha protection if they have the D and pretty soon they won't want to bring that many wraithknights.
Question on Tau tactics though - how do you guys feel about ghostkeels outside of the Optimized Stealth Cadre? I was putting together a list and didn't have enough points for the whole Cadre, but I do have enough points for 3 ghostkeels. I know a lot of it has to do with the rest of the list, which is basically a maxed out OSC (min stealth suits w/fusion though), a stormsurge, drone commander with a squad of drones and some troops to fill out the CAD.
Also debating whether access to iridium armor is worth paying a bunch more (46 points minus the weapons, so likely 36), as opposed to having less durable commander and drone squad, but a FSE detachment, which would grant obsec deep striking solo suits.
I'm liking a min Ghostkeel Wing with Rakers, Fuison Blasters, Early Warming, and Velocity Trackers. Spread out a bit, and with a little bubblewrap, they murder Drop lists and Flyer Circuses.
You think the durability that they provide to your army is better than having inherent durability for themselves? I mean, they're pretty durable against a unit, but using the countermeasures 3 times on top of the inbuilt cover saves....pretty nasty
Countermeasures only work on one unit for one phase in a game. So someone can get your Countermeasures spent in one round if they commit some fire to them... which they should anyways. Ghostkeels are worth ending. Believe that.
Jancoran wrote: Countermeasures only work on one unit for one phase in a game. So someone can get your Countermeasures spent in one round if they commit some fire to them... which they should anyways. Ghostkeels are worth ending. Believe that.
I believe that, which is why I think that having them in a formation that buffs other units is not as valuable as taking a squad that acts as a force multiplier for the durability of the other members of the unit
Jancoran wrote: Countermeasures only work on one unit for one phase in a game. So someone can get your Countermeasures spent in one round if they commit some fire to them... which they should anyways. Ghostkeels are worth ending. Believe that.
ive ran 3 ghostkeels in a unit about every game, no formation. They actually performed worse when i tried the ghostkeel wing because suddenly its a lot harder to benefit from markerlights and their stock BS isnt 4 from fireteam. The stealth bubble didnt help nearly as much as i expected it to, oddly enough, though it did piss off my necron friend when he shot his ... oh what the heck are those destroyer models with the long range lascannon-like gun ... anyway he shot those at my d-fish and i had a 2+ jink rofl (4+jink, dpods, stealth) and that was comical.
Im aggressive with the ghostkeels in a single unit though, which splitting them up tends to screw over. I clear any melee threat that has WS5 or AP3+ weapons at init then charge like hell with the ghostkeels. Friend of mine designing a list for the ITC event completely underestimated them...they kinda owned him once i got the wraiths out of the way lol. Theyre routinely the ace in the hole, even if im not trying to make them that. The funny thing is, they arent considered anywhere near as OP as Riptides by just about everyone purely because S10 vulnerability and their main gun is AP4...yet ive had one game out of i think 15 since the new dex dropped where they didnt do jack for me, while the Riptides about every other game is a total flop.
Anybody ever buy stims or shields on ghostkeels? i was getting stims at first since i rarely expect to not have cover or armor. But once i got my 3rd ghostkeel....thats 105pts on an already pricy squad lol. For the most part im finding i dont really need stims, but once in awhile ... particularly when i find Ignores Cover enemies ... i really wish i had it lol
And yeah i tend to avoid those players. I havnt faced Eldar in months because im sick of their crap (the players more than the army). Fully intend to whip out a Ta'unar when i get it shipped/assembled just to prove a point how much of a dick move it is to bring supers in low points lol
Vineheart, why is it more difficult to use ml with a a squad? I would say sharing is only easier? With the 3 separate units they dont get the fire team rule of one bs, or atleast I thought they had to be same unit.
DirtyDeeds wrote: I think the problem with trying to use the shield line is that it can't touch terrain and it must maintain the same shape as when it was originally deployed, severely reducing the scope of the fortification.
BTW, as a side note, the Tidewall Rampart only has to END its movement in the same formation it started in. This does actually make it flexible to get around a corner. Its not as convenient as one would like but its not an entirely paralyzing factor.
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Vineheart01 wrote: ive ran 3 ghostkeels in a unit about every game, no formation. They actually performed worse when i tried the ghostkeel wing because suddenly its a lot harder to benefit from markerlights and their stock BS isnt 4 from fireteam. The stealth bubble didnt help nearly as much as i expected it to, oddly enough, though it did piss off my necron friend when he shot his ... oh what the heck are those destroyer models with the long range lascannon-like gun ... anyway he shot those at my d-fish and i had a 2+ jink rofl (4+jink, dpods, stealth) and that was comical.
Im aggressive with the ghostkeels in a single unit though, which splitting them up tends to screw over. I clear any melee threat that has WS5 or AP3+ weapons at init then charge like hell with the ghostkeels. Friend of mine designing a list for the ITC event completely underestimated them...they kinda owned him once i got the wraiths out of the way lol.
Theyre routinely the ace in the hole, even if im not trying to make them that. The funny thing is, they arent considered anywhere near as OP as Riptides by just about everyone purely because S10 vulnerability and their main gun is AP4...yet ive had one game out of i think 15 since the new dex dropped where they didnt do jack for me, while the Riptides about every other game is a total flop.
Anybody ever buy stims or shields on ghostkeels? i was getting stims at first since i rarely expect to not have cover or armor. But once i got my 3rd ghostkeel....thats 105pts on an already pricy squad lol. For the most part im finding i dont really need stims, but once in awhile ... particularly when i find Ignores Cover enemies ... i really wish i had it lol
And yeah i tend to avoid those players. I havnt faced Eldar in months because im sick of their crap (the players more than the army). Fully intend to whip out a Ta'unar when i get it shipped/assembled just to prove a point how much of a dick move it is to bring supers in low points lol
I don't think Shields are worth the cost. Stims on the other hand seem worth it. But you don't need ot put it on ALL of them. Consider that. Maybe on the last one so that you can try to keep the unit alive in a pinch without overcommitting points to it? I didn't use shileds nor Stim the first couple outinggs and they rolled the flank like no other. Armor doesnt like them.
So I got a cool list submitted for the Tau from the LVO.
The 46th place Tau list actually was a formation based list that ran a Drone Net, a Ghostkeel Wing, and a Riptide Wing. It also ran Missile Drones with the Riptide which was pretty cool, mostly to counteract any Grav due to how the list worked. Everything had an EWO system, which was also interesting since the whole army could just shoot, with marker lights, on the opponent's turn if it wanted to. The other interesting thing I found about it was that it mixed Riptide weapons, I'd have assumed it would have the same weapons in the squaded Riptides, but it didn't, which was interesting.
Tinkrr wrote: So I got a cool list submitted for the Tau from the LVO.
The 46th place Tau list actually was a formation based list that ran a Drone Net, a Ghostkeel Wing, and a Riptide Wing. It also ran Missile Drones with the Riptide which was pretty cool, mostly to counteract any Grav due to how the list worked. Everything had an EWO system, which was also interesting since the whole army could just shoot, with marker lights, on the opponent's turn if it wanted to. The other interesting thing I found about it was that it mixed Riptide weapons, I'd have assumed it would have the same weapons in the squaded Riptides, but it didn't, which was interesting.
you know, I really like this idea. shooting in my opponent's turn and using the shooting phase in my own turn to run and redeploy.
Tinkrr wrote: So I got a cool list submitted for the Tau from the LVO.
The 46th place Tau list actually was a formation based list that ran a Drone Net, a Ghostkeel Wing, and a Riptide Wing. It also ran Missile Drones with the Riptide which was pretty cool, mostly to counteract any Grav due to how the list worked. Everything had an EWO system, which was also interesting since the whole army could just shoot, with marker lights, on the opponent's turn if it wanted to. The other interesting thing I found about it was that it mixed Riptide weapons, I'd have assumed it would have the same weapons in the squaded Riptides, but it didn't, which was interesting.
Mixing the weapons is a little handy for when/if the Marker Drones go down. The Ion Cannon is excellent when guided by Markerlights but when those go away or must focus on other things, then it becomes important to maybe have a rof option. Hedging the bet I guess.
So another really cool update, the 12th place Tau ran 2x Breacher squads with Devilfish and an Ethereal as their HQ and troop choice in the CAD. He's the top placing Tau.
As those are min squads of breachers, I'm assuming he took them mainly for some obsec in the d'fish and somewhere to hide the ethereal. Pretty nasty if they do double tap though within half range + the ethereal.
Tinkrr wrote: So another really cool update, the 12th place Tau ran 2x Breacher squads with Devilfish and an Ethereal as their HQ and troop choice in the CAD. He's the top placing Tau.
Ethereals are bad ass. Specifically Aun'Va. I continue my quest to impress this upon people. i continue to be buffetted by the winds of doubt and run aground on the sholes of old thinking. Nonetheless, my struggle continues.
Tinkrr wrote: So another really cool update, the 12th place Tau ran 2x Breacher squads with Devilfish and an Ethereal as their HQ and troop choice in the CAD. He's the top placing Tau.
Ethereals are bad add. Specifically Aun'Va. I continue my quest to impress this upon people. i continue to be buffetted by the winds of doubt and run aground on the sholes of old thinking. Nonetheless, my struggle continues.
Not sure your message is clear, as "bad add" means a bad addition, so is something you should avoid.
i run ethereals fairly often but i'd never run Aun'Va. Even with ITC rules on his scepter, hes too damn easy to kill and you cant really protect him since hes not an IC.
Vineheart01 wrote: i run ethereals fairly often but i'd never run Aun'Va. Even with ITC rules on his scepter, hes too damn easy to kill and you cant really protect him since hes not an IC.
Let's be honest, bad doesn't mean unplayable in the Tau codex, at least outside of the Vespids it doesn't, but rather it means that the option isn't something you'd play unless you are dedicated to a certain plan. In which case, yes Ethereals are bad, as they don't really have a place in most lists, but I can see them being good in either Breacher lists or specific lists that try to abuse their ability. Again, it doesn't mean they're unplayable, just that they're not something to consider, unless you intentionally want to build around them.
Good news everybody! Pictures of the leaked upcoming white dwarf show that they are going to be updating the Farsight enclaves codex, meaning that there might be hope for a new far side model and them fixing the wording in regards to the earth caste pilot array!
gmaleron wrote: Good news everybody! Pictures of the leaked upcoming white dwarf show that they are going to be updating the Farsight enclaves codex, meaning that there might be hope for a new far side model and them fixing the wording in regards to the earth caste pilot array!
It wasn't wording that needed a fix. Just because it didn't let you throw it on any old Riptide does not mean that they messed up.
BoomWolf wrote: The general assumption is that it IS a screw up.
Having the ECPA available on through the "The Eight" formation is odd.
Could be intentional, but general belief is that its not.
Well, it is also available on normal crisis suits, though they gain no benefit from the Nova re-roll. I don't think re-roll 1s with a reduction to WS1 is worth 30 points on its own, though
I assume he means the Ghostkeel unit, in which case...ouch man. That sucks, especially with them having leadership 9. Don't leave them too near the board edge!
Tinkrr wrote: So I got a cool list submitted for the Tau from the LVO.
The 46th place Tau list actually was a formation based list that ran a Drone Net, a Ghostkeel Wing, and a Riptide Wing. It also ran Missile Drones with the Riptide which was pretty cool, mostly to counteract any Grav due to how the list worked. Everything had an EWO system, which was also interesting since the whole army could just shoot, with marker lights, on the opponent's turn if it wanted to. The other interesting thing I found about it was that it mixed Riptide weapons, I'd have assumed it would have the same weapons in the squaded Riptides, but it didn't, which was interesting.
Mixing the weapons is a little handy for when/if the Marker Drones go down. The Ion Cannon is excellent when guided by Markerlights but when those go away or must focus on other things, then it becomes important to maybe have a rof option. Hedging the bet I guess.
The above list was mine at LVO this year. I think it worked well. I finished with a 4-2 record. I attribute my losses to grossly miss playing and a small bit of bad luck (such as a unit of riptides and all 4 marker drones running off the board turn 1. I really did fail 5/5 leadership checks.)
I went for super durable to not lose anything on alpha strike armies. No one got first blood off me. No one got First strike. I brought 5 riptides to every game. Game 1 I lost all 5. Game 2 I didn't lose any. Game 3 I didn't lose any. Game 4 I didn't lose any. Game 5 I lost 1. And game 6 I didn't lose any.
Against drop armies I intercepted with my entire army and then assaulted what was left. Sky hammer was a joke to kill along with any other drop marines. Grav cents were laughable because the shielded missile drone bumped the average save of my riptide units to 4+. Couple that with ruins cover and stealth or shrouded from the ghostkeel wing and I took maybe 1 wound from grav cents.
And on the topic of mixing the weapons in the riptide squad. I did this because of the wording in the formation rules. I could shoot the ion accelerator at BS3 at a unit and then fire the heavy burst right after at the same unit and receive a +1 BS boost. Then shoot both my SMS at BS4.
Overall I feel the list was a great success and worked nice with my playstyle. I may take something similar to another GT in April. I am considering losing the marker drones. I am just not sure for what yet though.
arthorn wrote: I hope they give fse, nice Sig. Systems on par with the tau empire. Or atleast add armour +1t and better save.
I'd love to see a viable melee kit. Right now only Commanders can viably melee, yet with only a single sig system (not including Farsight). The ability to outfit a 'vre with a WS bonus and a power weapon would be a great meta changer.
Yeah i'd really love crisis suits with powersword-type gear. Maybe a support system to improve their WS so its either WS2 + S5 AP3 attacks + Invul or Stims, or WS4 and no Invul or Stims.
That and i hope the price of the fusion cutter thing goes down. Its 50 damn points! 20pts for a twinlinked fusion then 30 on top of that to make it the melee weapon variant. Ouch. Even if im reading it wrong and it literally replaces the twinlinked fusion, cost included, its still pricy since it can potentially go away and no non-ICs with melee that isnt an MC to work with. Crisis suits are S5 2A base, which isnt bad, but AP- and not even AP4 access kinda sucks.
Im a huge Gundam-esk (not gundam specifically but i love the exo-suit mentality for Mechs more than i like the Mechwarrior idea) fan so i'd be fine sacrificing my nasty guns in exchange for assaulty suits lol. Even if its not competitive but just viable, i'd do it. I actually thought about outfitting one of my riptides with a giant blade just because it'd look cool as hell, even though theres no counts-as rule i could use it as.
I've been playing around with Farsight and a Fusion Blade Commander for a bit now, and just having a option to let an upgrade character taking a non-sig Onager with a +2 WS would be a welcome addition.
Do yous think taking a Ghostkeel Wing is worth it for the defensive buffs it brings? Thinking of rocking them with my Mech Tau, has some nice synergy with the disruption pods on paper.
Currently musing on a core force of an Ethereal, two 5 man breacher squads in D'fishes with Disruption pods, 3 Skyrays with D'pods and a Ghostkeel wing. Keep the Ghostkeels with the Devilfishes for a 2+jink. Deploy in a castle to give the Skyrays the improved cover save 1st turn.
That is about 1155pts with the additional toys on the Ghostkeels (EWO, TL Fusion).
What is making me hesitant is ignore cover is a thing.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i'd really love crisis suits with powersword-type gear. Maybe a support system to improve their WS so its either WS2 + S5 AP3 attacks + Invul or Stims, or WS4 and no Invul or Stims.
That and i hope the price of the fusion cutter thing goes down. Its 50 damn points! 20pts for a twinlinked fusion then 30 on top of that to make it the melee weapon variant. Ouch.
Even if im reading it wrong and it literally replaces the twinlinked fusion, cost included, its still pricy since it can potentially go away and no non-ICs with melee that isnt an MC to work with. Crisis suits are S5 2A base, which isnt bad, but AP- and not even AP4 access kinda sucks.
Im a huge Gundam-esk (not gundam specifically but i love the exo-suit mentality for Mechs more than i like the Mechwarrior idea) fan so i'd be fine sacrificing my nasty guns in exchange for assaulty suits lol. Even if its not competitive but just viable, i'd do it.
I actually thought about outfitting one of my riptides with a giant blade just because it'd look cool as hell, even though theres no counts-as rule i could use it as.
maybe game the burna boy thing? if they fire their burnas they are flamers. if they don't fire their burnas, they have power weapons.
arthorn wrote: Its just 30 points the fusion blade, why would you pay 50?
I hope they will make CC a bit more viable but only on IC not on normal suits since that would remove one of the weaknesses we have left.
You have to buy a twinlinked Fusion Blaster to be able to buy the Fusion Blade. So 20+30=50.
Which is a bit silly as it means you are paying 30 points purely for the melee profile, which has a 1/6 chance of breaking your entire weapon at the end of every assault phase you use it, potentially leaving your commander with nothing.
arthorn wrote: Its just 30 points the fusion blade, why would you pay 50?
I hope they will make CC a bit more viable but only on IC not on normal suits since that would remove one of the weaknesses we have left.
You have to buy a twinlinked Fusion Blaster to be able to buy the Fusion Blade. So 20+30=50.
Which is a bit silly as it means you are paying 30 points purely for the melee profile, which has a 1/6 chance of breaking your entire weapon at the end of every assault phase you use it, potentially leaving your commander with nothing.
But it's also a str 8 ap 1 armour bane weapon that strikes at initiative. Not even the thunder hammer boasts that profile.
arthorn wrote: Its just 30 points the fusion blade, why would you pay 50?
I hope they will make CC a bit more viable but only on IC not on normal suits since that would remove one of the weaknesses we have left.
You have to buy a twinlinked Fusion Blaster to be able to buy the Fusion Blade. So 20+30=50.
Which is a bit silly as it means you are paying 30 points purely for the melee profile, which has a 1/6 chance of breaking your entire weapon at the end of every assault phase you use it, potentially leaving your commander with nothing.
But it's also a str 8 ap 1 armour bane weapon that strikes at initiative. Not even the thunder hammer boasts that profile.
But most models wielding a thunder hammer will have better than WS4 and I3 (or at least their buddies will) with a 3+ save (and maybe a 4++)
What's the Necron Warscythe profile? S+2, AP2, Armourbane isn't it? So it loses 1S and 1AP but can be on a faster, tougher model with a higher WS and won't ever break. And it costs 10 points less than the Fusion Blade upgrade on its own and 30 points less than the full, actual cost of the Fusion Blade.
There are only very rare situations where buying the Fusion Blade will serve you better than just buying 2 fusion blasters. If you're within range to charge then you're within double-pen melta range. Having those two shots over 1 means you are much more likely to kill a vehicle in shooting and if not you can still assault it and hit rear armour with S5, which can take out Rear Armour 10 vehicles reasonably well if all you have to do is take off a hull point.
Yes, but the mere fact you had to but the TL fusion beforehand, taking 2 item slots on someone already BS5 makes it very, very pricy.
Its a good weapon. amazing even. but just have too much requirements. 2 slots and 50 points for a TL fusion gun you can use in melee (and might brake when you do)
What would you guys think would be a good pairing to go with the Retaliation Cadre? Thinking of running it and maybe another formation for the Trios Tournament at Nova. Drone Network would be sweet as it would give me some pretty good marker support, and fits my theme of an all suit (Farsight Enclaves) army. Riptide Wing and Optimised Stealth Cadre also seem good. So many options!
Samurai_Eduh wrote: What would you guys think would be a good pairing to go with the Retaliation Cadre? Thinking of running it and maybe another formation for the Trios Tournament at Nova. Drone Network would be sweet as it would give me some pretty good marker support, and fits my theme of an all suit (Farsight Enclaves) army. Riptide Wing and Optimised Stealth Cadre also seem good. So many options!
Ranged Support Cadre, if you're sticking with FSE and the Dawnblade Contingent. People do not expect to get hit by HYMPs at the max range--for Overwatch no less!
The Rapid Insertion Force is also a pretty solid choice, allowing Crisis Suits/Riptides to Deep Strike within 6" of the Formation's Stealth Suits to not scatter and count ALL their weapons as twin-linked for that Shooting phase.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: What would you guys think would be a good pairing to go with the Retaliation Cadre? Thinking of running it and maybe another formation for the Trios Tournament at Nova. Drone Network would be sweet as it would give me some pretty good marker support, and fits my theme of an all suit (Farsight Enclaves) army. Riptide Wing and Optimised Stealth Cadre also seem good. So many options!
Optimized Stealth Cadre gives you two Stealth squads that can take beacon as well as the always awesome Ghostkeel, adding two spots you can arrive at without scatter. Works great for TE, still workers great for FSE. Take a Drone-Net as your auxiliary.
3 man ghostkeel squad, equipped as above but with ats on one of the ion rakers)
2 3 man stealth squads (1 target lock fusion each)
Has anyone had any experience running a list similar to this? Looking to avoid some pitfalls before I step in them hopefully. I also wonder if I have enough/durable enough markerlights
Ive used the ghostkeel with a Stormsurge. it was succesful.
Add two drones to commander, its cheaper, and drop two from the drone unit.
Also... Highly suggest you make room for a second Markerlight source. personal favorite: 3 Firesight Marksman. Great accuracy and of course easier to defend.
I like Ghostkeels a bunch, so I'm betting your plan will work out. 3 things I see as areas for potential improvement:
1) Unless your tournament has a 2-formation limit, I can't think of much reason to not split the CAD Ghostkeels off into a Ghostkeel Wing. You might as well get the Stealth bubbles and potential BS bonus if you're spending the points, either way.
2) That commander is prohibitively expensive for a weaponless Mark'O. I'd either drop a couple marker drones so he can have missile pods (or whatever) or punt on the Mark'O idea entirely in favor of a Drone Net. The latter gives you a bit more flexibility with your lights, so that's probably what I would choose.
3) You have zero flyer control. You don't need a whole lot, but I'd at least try to fit in a VT on one of the OSC Ghostkeels. With the numerous formation buffs, that should be sufficient.
MilkmanAl wrote: I like Ghostkeels a bunch, so I'm betting your plan will work out. 3 things I see as areas for potential improvement:
1) Unless your tournament has a 2-formation limit, I can't think of much reason to not split the CAD Ghostkeels off into a Ghostkeel Wing. You might as well get the Stealth bubbles and potential BS bonus if you're spending the points, either way.
2) That commander is prohibitively expensive for a weaponless Mark'O. I'd either drop a couple marker drones so he can have missile pods (or whatever) or punt on the Mark'O idea entirely in favor of a Drone Net. The latter gives you a bit more flexibility with your lights, so that's probably what I would choose.
3) You have zero flyer control. You don't need a whole lot, but I'd at least try to fit in a VT on one of the OSC Ghostkeels. With the numerous formation buffs, that should be sufficient.
No his plan is to use the Mark'O to make the Masrkerlights never miss, ever.
3 man ghostkeel squad, equipped as above but with ats on one of the ion rakers)
2 3 man stealth squads (1 target lock fusion each)
Has anyone had any experience running a list similar to this? Looking to avoid some pitfalls before I step in them hopefully. I also wonder if I have enough/durable enough markerlights
Not sure if you have mentioned it but you are very close to a proper Hunter Contingent so that could be another idea to follow. It will reduce your dependency on markerlights a bit and create extremely beneficial buffs for the whole army.
MilkmanAl wrote: 9 Drones hitting 5/6 of the time generates fewer hits than 16 drones hitting 1/2 the time. In his list, the former costs about 50 points more, too.
Cant protect the drones the same though. Thats the key.
I disagree. I'd rather have 16 drones that can jink and go to ground than 9 normal drones with my warlord out front getting blasted. They're also split up into 4 units, so they can't get massacred all at once by an intense round of shooting. On the contrary, I'd argue that the Drone Network options offers quite a lot more durability.
MilkmanAl wrote: I disagree. I'd rather have 16 drones that can jink and go to ground than 9 normal drones with my warlord out front getting blasted. They're also split up into 4 units, so they can't get massacred all at once by an intense round of shooting. On the contrary, I'd argue that the Drone Network options offers quite a lot more durability.
Then do it. i wouldn't. And he doesnt have to be your warlord. obviously.
The Commander is the only character in his list, so unless I'm missing something, that does have to be his warlord.
I'm surprised you're sticking with the list as presented. You're always promoting tactical flexibility and generalship and whatnot, so why is the choice that's, cheaper, (arguably) more durable, more flexible, and better at what it's supposed to do not your choice? I'm not seeing it.
MilkmanAl wrote: The Commander is the only character in his list, so unless I'm missing something, that does have to be his warlord.
I'm surprised you're sticking with the list as presented. You're always promoting tactical flexibility and generalship and whatnot, so why is the choice that's, cheaper, (arguably) more durable, more flexible, and better at what it's supposed to do not your choice? I'm not seeing it.
But... it doesnt actually. He can have anyone be his warlord. So ...
I actually don't see another way to fit these units in a different list with the drone net (don't care about 2 source format, but I do want to keep it to 3). In order to get the stormsurge, I either need to have a CAD or a hunter contingent, both of which necessitate the commander and TBH I don't see a better use for him. (Buying the two cheaper drones is great though)
You're right that the Mark'O is pretty expensive, but he does give a lot of durability to the drone squad. T5, 2+ and FNP, plus a cover save pretty much always....going to take a while to get through 4 wounds.
I really don't like the ghostkeel wing actually. I find the benefits to be underwhelming and you can only activate the holophoton countermeasures once for each unit, which means that any ghostkeel can be focused down 2 units sooner, and I can't juggle wounds in between turns. Big loss if you ask me. Gaining stealth is nice but....eh. And the ballistic skill bonus is silly. The whole squad is natively BS 4 with a 3 man unit, and you get to have a single markerlight buff all of them.
I could make my warlord one of the stealth suit characters, which I think is what I would probably rather do. That way, it's not the character that I plan on tanking wounds with and you pretty much always will have to go through 2+ cover (and deal with some angry ghostkeels nearby). Plus then maybe you make a mistake and don't shoot at the drone squad to try and get warlord.
I will definitely try out the hunter contingent. Would like to be able to put the commander into a squad as a proper buffmander in that case, but I could tweak it around probably. I think I would have to ditch a ghostkeel to make that happen though.
You're right about having a velocity tracker somewhere in there. Probably on the dude in the OSC with the fusion as his secondary gun.
Jancoran wrote: Characters dont have to be the Warlord. Interestingly.
I'll double check the rulebook but if you have one in your army, then one does IIRC.
I have checked and that is the case. Now, if I created an army with no characters, then I totally could make my stormsurge my warlord, or let a ghostkeel with FNP do the dirty.
WAIT A SECOND. I was thinking that my stealth suits natively had a character in them, but actually I need to pay 10 points to make them a character (and I'm not about that life).
So actually, I would have no character models if I just got rid of the commander....hmmm this may bear some thinking. I wouldn't be able to field a stormsurge though without the commander. Right? Someone tell me how to field a bound list with a stormsurge (only 1 unit of stormsurges) without a character model. Go!
Retribution cadre is the only way you can get a stormsurge without a character. Hunter Cadre requires a commander, and a CAD requires 1 HQ of any choice so youre at least taking an ethereal if points are your thing (though he wouldnt do much without a ball of firewarriors to hang out with)
Though thats 2 units of stormsurges. And personally one of the dumbest non-alien formation we got. The rules are pretty meh considering it forces the ghostkeel to be really damn close to danger and the focus fire thing is kinda weak...and what the hell would survive 2 stormsurges firing on them anyway lol
Nope, its the moneygrabber formation. Funny that its not broken as all hell since its the moneygrabber. More than one stormsurge is seriously too expensive and except in beyond 2k lists will start to devour your support points in order to bring the 2nd SS. The large blast is the only weapon he has that doesnt need any ML support. The 4D6 missiles isnt twinlinked (oddly enough) so 1-2 ML on it makes it way stronger and its D-Missiles are NOT seekers so you need ~5 ML per flippin missile (1 to make it D, 2 for BS5, 2 for Ignores Cover just in case you dont roll a 6 on the D table). Course if you fire multiple at the same unit you dont need to stack the ML as badly but its still a LOT of them.
I have fielded my Stormsurge 4 times so far, and every time i have shot a D missile without 5 markerlights i either miss or it gets coversaved. If you have ~900pts in 2 models, odds are you either dont have any cannonfodder to choke up chargy units, viable AA, or proper marker support. One of those three is missing, and that leaves a large loophole in your defenses.
Actually on the note of seekers, that'd be kinda cool if the Stormsurge could buy a Seeker Rack... say 40pts for 6 missiles (1 free missile for the cost, since LoW perks). He bypasses the main seeker issue of "must fire at the same target" since GMCs can splitfire all weapons. That would be cool.
You should check out the list that Frankie down at Frontline Gaming runs. There are a lot of video batreps available online but double stormsurge definitely works, so long as they are one unit. The wound allocation nonsense alone is bonkers. It also doubles the efficiency of any markerlight you use on them (probably want to have the unit ignore cover pretty much every turn on a priority target lol)
He also runs a riptide wing which, as opposed to a ghostkeel wing, I think is very good. Firing twice one turn is simply insane, and when you can nova 8/9 times instead of 2/3....well then. TBH I would definitely run a riptide wing if I didn't love ghostkeels so much. I almost did a riptide wing plus OSC plus drone net list. If I'm not mistaken, there was a list similar to that which performed pretty well at the LVO
How do you guys feel about running a solo Riptide Wing? In 1850, you can run 8 Riptides and a Marker Drone Net with all the fixins (including target locks) pretty comfortably. I historically haven't been terribly fond of running a ton of Riptides since they're pretty expensive for the offensive output they generate, but being able to crank out an extra turn of shooting tips that balance significantly. The nova rerolls are also great for survivability and offense. You would suffer badly against certain matchups, for sure, but it's entirely possible that having your whole army shoot twice could knock your opponent into a deficit he couldn't recover from.
Vineheart01 wrote: .and what the hell would survive 2 stormsurges firing on them anyway lol
Read the formation rules again. It doesn't say it has to be the main gun.
Two stormsurges can suppress a huge amount of targets at the same time.
Only problem is any place that uses ITC rules won't even allow that formation at all
Theres also that.
I'd much rather be limited to 1 stormsurge than face 3 WKs. Course as ive mentioned several times i dont do tournaments, though i still pay attention to them. I just dont have fun with the kind of lists a tournament demands of you or you are expected to face.
MilkmanAl wrote: How do you guys feel about running a solo Riptide Wing? In 1850, you can run 8 Riptides and a Marker Drone Net with all the fixins (including target locks) pretty comfortably. I historically haven't been terribly fond of running a ton of Riptides since they're pretty expensive for the offensive output they generate, but being able to crank out an extra turn of shooting tips that balance significantly. The nova rerolls are also great for survivability and offense. You would suffer badly against certain matchups, for sure, but it's entirely possible that having your whole army shoot twice could knock your opponent into a deficit he couldn't recover from.
If you can say it will suffer badly in certain matchups, dont take it. That's my advice. A balanced army isn't as sexy, thats for sure. 8 stompy bots? Pretty cool looking, But i just dont think I'd wanna do it. It would probably annhilate some people though.
Riptide Unit: 2x Riptide. One with HBC, VT and EWO. Second with EWO, Ion and Target Lock. (400pts)
3x Broadside: HYMP, VT. (255pts)
DRONE NET VX1-0: (280pts)
2x 5 Marker Drones
2x 5 Gun Drones
------------------------
Comes to 1681. Thoughts? I kind of want the Air Superiority Cadre to handle flyers, but I feel I need some way of bringing at least a portion of the retaliation cadre down without scattering.
We're running a Damocles campaign at the FLGS. Tau /Xenos vs IOM.
Background -
Spoiler:
I am part of the tau side. 1700pt games. We started the campaign 2 weeks ago and are playing every other week. It's pretty good! about 5 tables going at once. Last week was a cool. Tau had to deploy first. Center of the table - 12" radius. Then IOM players deployed. They could deploy in any corner or multiple corners. Wedge shaped deployment zones protruding from each corner. Also, both sides had to put half of their units in reserve. Tau/xenos could take 150 pts worth of fortifications for free. IOM's fast attack units could respawn after they died. 5 objectives had to be placed in the tau deployment zone that you had to hold for VP's at the end of the game.
My list last time was a CAD(Buffmander, Ethereal, 3 FW teams, 1devilfish, Riptide, 1 Plasma CS team, skyray + the pathfinder/broadside formation and the optimize stealth formation. I barely won against the new raven guard. Jump packs everywhere. Coming at me from all sides. Shrouded pathfinder performed well. All my suits, tide, Skyray were in reserves. It was glorious when they all descended from the sky onto the battle field.
I want a bit of a fluffy list so here's what I came up with for this week. again we get 200pts free for fortifications
2 CAD + Optimized Stealth formation + Aegis Line
CAD 1
Farsight
BuffMander w/drone controller
Riptide - IA and FB or Plasma
Crisis Suit team with Plasma/Fusion and target locks + 4 marker drones
2 5 man FW squads
2 5 man pathfinder squads
Skyray
Sniper team
CAD 2
Ethereal
2 5 man FW squads
Idea is to have Ethereal behind the aegis line buffing FW and Sniper team. Riptide doing what it does. OS ruining everyones day. Sky Ray gives AA support and more dakka. And a mini farsight bomb with CS team, Buffmander and Farsight dropping out of reserves.
I was going to take a comms relay for the aegis line or an ammo dump for rerolling 1s.
How do you think this would perform. Going against Lamenters, Guard, BA, Raven Guard, Astral Claws and Admech?
MilkmanAl wrote: How do you guys feel about running a solo Riptide Wing? In 1850, you can run 8 Riptides and a Marker Drone Net with all the fixins (including target locks) pretty comfortably. I historically haven't been terribly fond of running a ton of Riptides since they're pretty expensive for the offensive output they generate, but being able to crank out an extra turn of shooting tips that balance significantly. The nova rerolls are also great for survivability and offense. You would suffer badly against certain matchups, for sure, but it's entirely possible that having your whole army shoot twice could knock your opponent into a deficit he couldn't recover from.
You win big and you lose big. Your marker lights would be really efficient but even with 2 riptides at BS4 natively (until one dies) once they ML get taken out, you definitely have an issue. It really is dependent on going first.
Basically it comes down to "how much AP 2 does your opponent have?" but you can be tar pitted an you don't have a good board presence (in terms of quantity). Mobility is also not awesome.
In short, it's too unbalanced. I would say that 5 riptides is the most to ever run in a wing (1 squad of 3 and 2 solos) but even that is quite a lot. I would personally prefer to stick to the minimum requirements since it gives you more list-building flexibility (for example one of the FLG guys runs a riptide wing list with 2 stormsurges because of the extra points! Ouch!)
I like using Kroot and Stingwings are way rare but i own 27 and do like to break them out at times. They improved a great deal from their previous incarnation and while the Formation for them isnt overly exciting, it also doesn't hurt. So if you already plan to have them in your force then the Formation may make sense.
I'd be pretty interested in some talk about how best to use them (without the usual and rather useless "they suck" comments that really don't answer that question).
Except its not really. Thats why it hasn't been used in any tournaments lately.
I haven't seen reports of any tournaments not using the ITC ruleset, but you can definitely make a stronger argument for the HC's broken-ness if you're using it as, in my opinion, it is written and intended. It basically gives you a "delete unit" button that you can push every turn by running a buffmander. I don't think it's broken or unfair, really, but it's definitely powerful as all hell, especially when you start throwing a bunch of target locks into the mix.
Yep in the ITC ruleset it's not broken (which is good) but if you play it as it sounds (which IMO is more or less army-wide buffmander, let alone perhaps letting things like stormsurges keep those buffs when they target other units in the same shooting phase after firing a token weapon along with the buffmander) it's very powerful. Personally, I've been veering towards a CAD simply because I don't want to deal with any of that ambiguity. And I think some obsec is still important.
In any case, it'll be interesting to see how FSE changes. No doubt it will give us some new options.
Jancoran wrote: I like using Kroot and Stingwings are way rare but i own 27 and do like to break them out at times. They improved a great deal from their previous incarnation and while the Formation for them isnt overly exciting, it also doesn't hurt. So if you already plan to have them in your force then the Formation may make sense.
I'd be pretty interested in some talk about how best to use them (without the usual and rather useless "they suck" comments that really don't answer that question).
Isn't the theoretical appeal of Vespids theiir Move Through Cover and Fleet?
Jancoran wrote: I like using Kroot and Stingwings are way rare but i own 27 and do like to break them out at times. They improved a great deal from their previous incarnation and while the Formation for them isnt overly exciting, it also doesn't hurt. So if you already plan to have them in your force then the Formation may make sense.
I'd be pretty interested in some talk about how best to use them (without the usual and rather useless "they suck" comments that really don't answer that question).
Isn't the theoretical appeal of Vespids theiir Move Through Cover and Fleet?
No.
So i wrote an artickle a long time about them and compared them to Crisis teams which are quite popular. Things have obviously changed a lot BUT:
Stingwings allow you to Deep Strike in, which is useful for all kindso f reasons but since they benefit from Markerlights, You have a unit that can Deep Strike in and then eliminate units out on the wing. They also have Hit and Run with a High INIT! this goes unnoticed by many but it's true and so you can also use them to get an enemy clumped up for your blasts.
The Stingwings firepower is pretty good. STR 5 and AP 3. One can easily argue that the Breachers provide as much firepower for less at short ranges, but they cant deep Strike, they dont have good init, dont hit and run and aren't jump troops.
Maelstrom missions favor mobility. Stingwings are your fastest units as far as reaching objectives goes.
The upgrade to 4+ armor was much needed and i am glad they did that. At T4 they are also much tougher than Tau Fire Warriors generally and their Stingwing Strain Leader is LD 9 so not bad at all in that department.
Nothing in the Tau codex can be confused with being an assault unit but at least the Stingwings are getting away from most of their unsuccessful engagements because of their high init and that is worth something. Most Tau units just get consumed in close combat but you can keep Stingwings active and a viable target for another round and if they get a little luck, they are annoyingly resilient.
Imagine them coming in, killing your longfangs and then getting shot and charged by Tacticals nearby. Even though they aren't likely to win the combat, they are likely to survive and ounce out... Leaving the
Tacticals clumped and out of position. Not only will the Stingwings fire on them, but I am sure other units can now take advantage of the situation. Since most people go with minimum sized Tacticals or whatever, the chances of their being ENOUGH Stingwings left afterwards to harass and take objectives is pretty good. If five survive, they could be killing yet another unit on their turn!
Compare this to the perfoermance of a similarly priced Crisis team that deep Strikes in and tries to kill the same unit of Longfangs. They really can't. Not enough shots. So then the Longfangs THMSELVES can charge and unlike the Stingwings, a Crisis team is far more likely to be swept in combat with zero chance of reprisal later. And unfortunately the Longfangs thast remained can stay entrenched in combat potentially protecting them as well.
So it stands to reason that Stingwings really do make excellent "Wing" units both literally and figuratively. they outperform their Crisis teammates in some respects. Now obviously we would be talking about Crisis teams that are built with shorter range and high str weaponry like plasmas, meltas and Cyclic Ion type weapons. Clearly the role isnt the same as say Crisis Teams with Missiles.
The Stingwings are also going to weather STR 8 weaponry better thasn a similarly priced Crisis Team which is an added advantage. Crisis Teams suffer greatly when faced with Hunter Killers, Lance spam from Dark eldar and the similar host of STR 8 weaponry in the 40K universe.
So Stingwings have always seemed to work well for me. I don't use them most of the time just because some of my other toys ar so impressive looking and I enjoy the pyrotechnics, but the Stingwings rarely fail to be useful to me when used. The Tau Empire codex is filled with hidden gems like Sniper Drone Teams, Stingwings, Stealth Suits and even the lowly Cadre Fireblade which are pretty underused. Stingwings might be the MOST underused.
I haven't seen reports of any tournaments not using the ITC ruleset, .
There's a ton. Lol.
No doubt. I just haven't seen or read them.
Vespids...eh. There's are good reasons nobody uses them. I'll leave them in the same rubbish bin as special weapon pathfinders.
I definitely dont agree on that. Pathfinders are gooood times.
Stingwings are simply not owned by enough people to even have a body of work to look at. I've seen them fielded by other players exactly zero times and i play a lot, up and down the I-5 corridor.
Ironically I went 5-0 at a tournament once and they were in my list. I am ure there was more to it than that but its not as if they cost me the game or anything. That no one plays them isnt a sterling endorsement BUT then again, people poo poo a lot of things they simply have no experience with.
Stingwings, like Weapons Pathfinders, have a lot of potential. But they aren't a point and click style unit. They are much more finesse based, which makes them unpopular.
Most competitive players prefer a unit that will do well even if they make a mistake. Stingwings or weapons Pathfinders if used wrongly just evaporate before they accomplish anything.
Worse, before the advent of formations, they both used up an important Fast Attack Slot in which you could have any of a number of different markerlight units, which are a precious commodity for the Tau.
Jefffar wrote: Stingwings, like Weapons Pathfinders, have a lot of potential. But they aren't a point and click style unit. They are much more finesse based, which makes them unpopular.
Most competitive players prefer a unit that will do well even if they make a mistake. Stingwings or weapons Pathfinders if used wrongly just evaporate before they accomplish anything.
Worse, before the advent of formations, they both used up an important Fast Attack Slot in which you could have any of a number of different markerlight units, which are a precious commodity for the Tau.
Well yeah, but if something is a "finesse" unit and you are good, there is no problem it seems you'd agree. Its problem has a lot more to do in my opinion with the simple fact that they just werent very good when they first came out and werent in the original fluff, sort of. i mean you can add all the robots you want to the Tau Empire because robotics is how they manage to overcome the massive outnumbering they suffer against the Imperium. It all makes sense. Their allies make sense too but Vespids were late to the party and were hurting when they first came out.
But they made pretty much EVERY change any one wanting to play Stingwings would want. Upped the armor, gave them Hit and Run (perfect) and they are now what one wouold have hoped they were the first time around.
So I mean, I just think people literally have no experience with them and dont want to spend the money to learn. I'm okay with that. Not condemning it but as for the unit itself, I have a hard time disliking it given my experience.
True story: I once played the guy who got caught cheating (and won)at a GT. It was all over the net. This was at a different tournament than that one but a lot of people know him because of that GT. He won a lot of events at one point though his movement shenanigans was the issue from what I understand. Anyways, I was using three units of Stingwings. He was spamming Warp Spiders (much like the LVO winner was only this was long before the formation). He was EXTREMELY unhappy. He like me had never seen anyone else play them, had no idea what they did and he was in the running for the finals. He didn't make it. He has mellowed considerably as a person since then by all accounts but at the time he was about to flip the tabl. The Stingwings obliterated his Eldar. Cover? Nope. 3+ saves? So what? It was just over.
So they are not really a "finesse unit". they are kinda like a hammer. They aren't as glass as some hammers can be either. T4 and 4+ armor is really as good as Space Marine scouts as far s shooting them. So...
My main problem with vespid, is they honestly just lose to crisis in terms of firepower.
4 vespid cost 72, a dual burst crisis costs mere 42, and its usually either close in damage output, or superior.
Against 3+ without cover, the vespid do 3 unsaved wounds to every 2 by the crisis, so 1.5 times better, but they cost 1.7 times more. and against every other scenario the crisis just piles ahead.
Heck, you can pack a dual burst crisis with two gun drones for 66. you will do a tiny bit more damage even against 3+ saves out in the open, for cheaper. and will throw a pin chance for good measure.
Even at their own niche, they fall behind.
Vespids just cost too much for what they bring as DS surgical strikers. under the formation where they can infiltrate they get interesting, but as DS surgical strikes, I'd say crisis wins every time.
Not to mention that if the Strain Leader dies you're stuck with Leadership 6.
So really if you're going to use them then their actual minimum cost is 82 points, making a Crisis Suit even better in comparison, as otherwise they're quite likely to run after the first failed save.
Jumppacks, high as hell init, and hit and run makes me think theyre suppose to be an assault unit. Especially considering their weapons are basically fancy pistols that have a slightly better range than usual (fits in the tau methods anyway to have slightly longer reaching guns). But theyre still S3 and no melee weapons so AP-. The heck is the point of that high init and hit and run?
The models look like they have some kind of claws/talons built in biologically. No rules though.
Vineheart01 wrote: Jumppacks, high as hell init, and hit and run makes me think theyre suppose to be an assault unit. Especially considering their weapons are basically fancy pistols that have a slightly better range than usual (fits in the tau methods anyway to have slightly longer reaching guns). But theyre still S3 and no melee weapons so AP-. The heck is the point of that high init and hit and run?
They are a "tie up enemy units in combat and keep them from shooting/moving" unit, I believe, which I suppose is some variant of an assault unit. The point of the high Int and hit and run is to let them leave such combats whenever they want. Which Crisis Suits cannot do without Vectored Retrothrusters, and then not very well.
Vineheart01 wrote: Jumppacks, high as hell init, and hit and run makes me think theyre suppose to be an assault unit. Especially considering their weapons are basically fancy pistols that have a slightly better range than usual (fits in the tau methods anyway to have slightly longer reaching guns). But theyre still S3 and no melee weapons so AP-. The heck is the point of that high init and hit and run?
They are a "tie up enemy units in combat and keep them from shooting/moving" unit, I believe, which I suppose is some variant of an assault unit. The point of the high Int and hit and run is to let them leave such combats whenever they want. Which Crisis Suits cannot do without Vectored Retrothrusters, and then not very well.
Crisis Suits are tougher (3+ save vs 4+), have more attacks (A2 vs A1), are stronger (S5 vs S3) and have higher base leadership (LD8 vs LD6). The Stingwings win on initiative (I6 vs I2, or I6 vs I4 if you take drones) and weapon skill (WS3 vs WS2).
If the Vespid lose their strain leader and lose the combat then they will break. A Crisis Team can lose their Shas'vre and still hold thanks to having a leadership above the 2D6 average.
Yeah, since hit and run happens AFTER sweeping advance for some reason. Since its such a rare ability it really should happen before resolving a failed combat, Makes no sense that if you charge in with the intent of "whack'm and leave!" that youre going to panic out and get caught on the way out if you lose the combat, but not if you win the combat. What keeps the enemy from chasing you anyway?
Crisis Suits are tougher (3+ save vs 4+), have more attacks (A2 vs A1), are stronger (S5 vs S3) and have higher base leadership (LD8 vs LD6). The Stingwings win on initiative (I6 vs I2, or I6 vs I4 if you take drones) and weapon skill (WS3 vs WS2).
If the Vespid lose their strain leader and lose the combat then they will break. A Crisis Team can lose their Shas'vre and still hold thanks to having a leadership above the 2D6 average.
The Crisis Team still cannot leave the combat, which is the important part. Unless they have VRTs. They also cannot close rapidly.
I think the point of Vespids is that they are supposed to be able to intercept and hold down enemy units long enough for other Tau units to reposition themselves and then open fire after the Vespids depart. That's my theory anyway.
8 Burst cannon shots (which I wouldnt take since Cyclic Ion Blasters are so boss, but whatevs) is 1.5 unsaved wounds on a Marine with Markerlight support. For a Broadside if you get down to it, that is costing 28 points per wound.
Stingwings, to exceed the Crisis team at 1.7 unsaved MEQ wounds, need three shots with Markerlight support.
result? 32.33 points per wound.
That tells you two things: one is that if the Crisis suits get much more expensive, there will be almost no difference. the second thing it tells you is that you're paying a five point premium over that PARTICULAR Crisis suit build and so you look at what you get from it.
Comparatives:
Well the comparative Stingwings in this example have three wounds instead of two, and are immune to Instant Death (effectively).
12" move gives them a better ability to get the jump on their target compared to the Crisis team
Hit and Run
Move through Cover.
Stealth (ruins).
Downside: STR 3, no ability to move back after shooting.
So even if we use this somewhat less than exciting version of the Crisis suit for comparison (which seems pretty unfair to me but okay fine, some people do actually use a dual Burst cannon suit), we can see that things outside of a simple kill ratio work in the Stingwings favor here.
I don't think it's all that expensive to pay roughly five points for a slightly higher kill ratio plus get all this mobility, escapability and relative immunity to catastrophic loss.
It's not the terribad tradeoff it seems on the surface.
8 Burst cannon shots (which I wouldnt take since Cyclic Ion Blasters are so boss, but whatevs) is 1.5 unsaved wounds on a Marine with Markerlight support. For a Broadside if you get down to it, that is costing 28 points per wound.
Stingwings, to exceed the Crisis team at 1.7 unsaved MEQ wounds, need three shots with Markerlight support.
result? 32.33 points per wound.
That tells you two things: one is that if the Crisis suits get much more expensive, there will be almost no difference. the second thing it tells you is that you're paying a five point premium over that PARTICULAR Crisis suit build and so you look at what you get from it.
Comparatives:
Well the comparative Stingwings in this example have three wounds instead of two, and are immune to Instant Death (effectively).
12" move gives them a better ability to get the jump on their target compared to the Crisis team
Hit and Run
Move through Cover.
Stealth (ruins).
Downside: STR 3, no ability to move back after shooting.
So even if we use this somewhat less than exciting version of the Crisis suit for comparison (which seems pretty unfair to me but okay fine, some people do actually use a dual Burst cannon suit), we can see that things outside of a simple kill ratio work in the Stingwings favor here.
I don't think it's all that expensive to pay roughly five points for a slightly higher kill ratio plus get all this mobility, escapability and relative immunity to catastrophic loss.
It's not the terribad tradeoff it seems on the surface.
I am at work without my codex, but you are on to something! Some of your ideas I havent considered and I like unorthodox strategies but you just open pandora's box!
If we wanted to compare combat performance, we would have to compare something like 2 Vespids + a Strain Leader (64 pts) vs. a single crisis suit, since the thing is almost certainly going to have weapons on it which should bring it up to around that points level. That means not 1 attack vs 2 but 4 vs. 2; in fact, the Vespids are almost certain to get the charge, so that's actually 9 attacks vs. 2 attacks (3 if the suit charges). And 2 wounds vs. 3, not 1 vs. 2.
Anyway, Vespids appear designed around getting into and out of melee, not about winning while they're there.
Now, that would be awesome if for instance they were unusually durable in melee, so that their job is literally tie everything up but odds are wont do much damage. Hit and run with init6 means at the end of the opponent's phase they almost guaranteed walk out of the combat so your army can shoot the guys they were attacking, then recharge in. Ultimate middle finger to melee units, especially the fast ones which are our main problems.
But if they try to tie up any of those units, they either wont have their armor or will get slammed with weight of dice. So they still cant tie up anything that matters for squat.
Sounds like the "new" FSE codex is just a small update with the Mont'ka stuff and access to FSE & Empire Signature systems. The latter is pretty cool and a straight buff.
Unless your running lots of Fire Warriors/Pathfinders for some reason, does not seem like much reason is left to run an Empire CAD if you're going to run Crisis suits anyways.
Kenpachi walks in, will someone take a look at a certain signature system, and verify that you can get stubborn.
So, hypothectically if you charge with stubborn after the vespid unit, the commander, and other units using coordinated firepower to share markerlights than charge do enough damage with the shooting that they cant be killed in one phase than use hit run during there turn you have something that is really good, there are most likely flaws but I am not thinking about that now.
Bryan01 wrote: Sounds like the "new" FSE codex is just a small update with the Mont'ka stuff and access to FSE & Empire Signature systems. The latter is pretty cool and a straight buff.
Unless your running lots of Fire Warriors/Pathfinders for some reason, does not seem like much reason is left to run an Empire CAD if you're going to run Crisis suits anyways.
Is there a source for this? Not being able to take Iridium on my FSE commander is the only reason that I'm running a tau empire CAD instead of FSE. If that changes, I will be pretty happy
Bryan01 wrote: Sounds like the "new" FSE codex is just a small update with the Mont'ka stuff and access to FSE & Empire Signature systems. The latter is pretty cool and a straight buff.
Unless your running lots of Fire Warriors/Pathfinders for some reason, does not seem like much reason is left to run an Empire CAD if you're going to run Crisis suits anyways.
Is there a source for this? Not being able to take Iridium on my FSE commander is the only reason that I'm running a tau empire CAD instead of FSE. If that changes, I will be pretty happy
People who own the FSE digital edition got it updated automatically. It now specifically says they can equip both sets
luke1705 wrote: Do we have confirmation of whether this includes any different formations or clarification as to whether normal Riptides can take an ECPA?
No other formations I know of and they did not clarify anything more with ECPA and riptides unfortunately
Alcibiades wrote: If we wanted to compare combat performance, we would have to compare something like 2 Vespids + a Strain Leader (64 pts) vs. a single crisis suit, since the thing is almost certainly going to have weapons on it which should bring it up to around that points level. That means not 1 attack vs 2 but 4 vs. 2; in fact, the Vespids are almost certain to get the charge, so that's actually 9 attacks vs. 2 attacks (3 if the suit charges). And 2 wounds vs. 3, not 1 vs. 2.
Anyway, Vespids appear designed around getting into and out of melee, not about winning while they're there.
I dont think anyone would suggest they are melee units. I prefaced eevrything by saying Tau dont HAVE anything like that. Even kroot are hilariouly overpowered most of the time (though like many things, this absolutely does NOT mean they aren't worth taking).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Now, that would be awesome if for instance they were unusually durable in melee, so that their job is literally tie everything up but odds are wont do much damage. Hit and run with init6 means at the end of the opponent's phase they almost guaranteed walk out of the combat so your army can shoot the guys they were attacking, then recharge in. Ultimate middle finger to melee units, especially the fast ones which are our main problems.
But if they try to tie up any of those units, they either wont have their armor or will get slammed with weight of dice. So they still cant tie up anything that matters for squat.
Weight of dice assumes the weight is alive after being shot, does it not?
Just because you starte with an army doesnt mean the whol thing can or should be brought to bear. But objectively, the 5 point premium comes with a ton o benefits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CKO wrote: Kenpachi walks in, will someone take a look at a certain signature system, and verify that you can get stubborn.
So, hypothectically if you charge with stubborn after the vespid unit, the commander, and other units using coordinated firepower to share markerlights than charge do enough damage with the shooting that they cant be killed in one phase than use hit run during there turn you have something that is really good, there are most likely flaws but I am not thinking about that now.
One fun thing I did in order to use my Stingwings, was having a Commander Deep Strike with them. 12 Stingwings that you can't just shoot up? Pretty fun. Onager gauntlet in the unit? Also fun. Hit and run on the unit on init 5.... You guessed it. Pretty fun.
Necron player here, thinking about adding in some Tau with the express purpose of getting Stormsurges (since Necrons don't really have a decent LoW option).
How are Stormsurges without Markerlight support? I was thinking of just putting in the Heavy Retribution Cadre alongside some Wraiths and stuff and calling it a day, but then I can't activate the D guns or get BS4.
Requizen wrote: Necron player here, thinking about adding in some Tau with the express purpose of getting Stormsurges (since Necrons don't really have a decent LoW option).
How are Stormsurges without Markerlight support? I was thinking of just putting in the Heavy Retribution Cadre alongside some Wraiths and stuff and calling it a day, but then I can't activate the D guns or get BS4.
Markerlights are required to make the StormSurge good. Its Missiles only average 7 hits per turn without markerlights, and without Markerlights, you can't ue the D-Missiles AS D-Missiles. Plus the Big cannon on its shoulder is unreliable as usual for Tau Empire. so all in all, a Storm Surge is great but you need to remember that it really neds the help of the Markerlights. Not cheap. it's why its one of the few times you will see multiple Gargantuans allowed by the ITC. T6, 3+ save, expensive and truly requires the help of Markerlights, so allying it in could be expensive.
Requizen wrote: Necron player here, thinking about adding in some Tau with the express purpose of getting Stormsurges (since Necrons don't really have a decent LoW option).
How are Stormsurges without Markerlight support? I was thinking of just putting in the Heavy Retribution Cadre alongside some Wraiths and stuff and calling it a day, but then I can't activate the D guns or get BS4.
If you want to run two stormsurges (not a bad idea) just grab a FSE CAD:
Commander with drone controller
A single crisis suit
A single crisis suit
A squad of marker drones (attach commander and profit)
A stormsurge (or two, if you prefer)
Very few tax units (and really, a 27 point obsec 3+ armor save 2 wound deep striking flamer unit really is not a tax)
If you prefer to make your drones a little more durable, you can add 36 points to be able to take strike squads instead. Gives you the option to take a 2+ armor on the commander (which also makes him T5). Very worth it IMO but if you can't afford 61 points (cost with the armor) then at least you have options.
Stormsurges without markerlights are not anything special. With markerlights, they are monsters. Whatever you do, don't take that awful formation. If you want two stormsurges (and why shouldn't you?) they really should be as a single unit. Do the hunter contingent or just a simple CAD (IMOCAD is better). Insert wraiths as counter-assault unit and profit
Two quick questions regarding the Skysweep Missile Defence formation (3 Skyrays, one command Devilfish).
I'm currently planning on running 3 skyrays and 2 Devilfishes (dedicated transports). If I was to run this formation, I assume I can still use the command D'fish as a transport? (ofc as part of the formation it would not be Objective secure).
2nd, the command override rule which lets all the seekers fire is completely redundant, shouldn't it have the line "at normal BS" included?! Otherwise it seems the only benefit is the 5+ cover save from shooting attacks by flyers, which even when running 3 skrays and D'fishes, seems debatable whether giving up objective secure on one transport would be worth that..
One fun thing I did in order to use my Stingwings, was having a Commander Deep Strike with them. 12 Stingwings that you can't just shoot up? Pretty fun. Onager gauntlet in the unit? Also fun. Hit and run on the unit on init 5.... You guessed it. Pretty fun.
Not going to lie I'm actually kind of tempted to try out some Vespids now . Also I wanted to inquire about what are everyone's thoughts that the FSE can actually benefit from both the standard Tau Empire signature systems and the FSE ones? Personally I'm loving it because now I have a way to actually run certain members of "The 8" without having to take the entire Formation.
One fun thing I did in order to use my Stingwings, was having a Commander Deep Strike with them. 12 Stingwings that you can't just shoot up? Pretty fun. Onager gauntlet in the unit? Also fun. Hit and run on the unit on init 5.... You guessed it. Pretty fun.
Vespid are Initiative 6
well they only fail on a 6 but you're right: 6, not 5.
Also they are Fleet which I had forgotten, which helps them move and run to an objective or to DS and spread out etc...
Incidentally, This also dovetails well with the Ethereal ability Zephyrs Grace.
Either way, they are much better than people say and I've gotten wins against some well known opponents with them in my force. I think, like I said, economics more than reality plays a part here. People simply want the other toys first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay so pursuant to my last post here imagine this:
Step 1: Deep Strike Stingwings in. They auto-pass Difficult Terrain Tests because: Move through cover.
Step 2: Disembark or make sure Etheral ends up within 12" of that drop zone.
Step 3: Saturate target with Markerlights.
Step 4: RUN the Stingwings into a circular formation to nullify blasts from being effective.
Step 5: Use Zephyr's Grace to allow the running Stingwings to fire even though they have circled up, using Markerlight support.
Step 6: Admire the remnants of a once proud unit whose lives you have extinguished while leaving yourself in excellent position afterwards.
I was annihilated last week by an eldar player and need some advice.
It was a Damocles campaign mission. I was deployed near the center of the table. He was along the short edge. I deployed first, he went first. In the scenario, I got up to 200 pts of free fortifications, so I grabbed an aegis line and ammo dump.
I had 4 units of strike teams radiating out from 2" of ammo dump, behind the aegis line. Mixed in were 2 units of pathfinders and a stealth drone team. Wanted everyone to get the benefit of the ammo dump. Also had an ethereal there and a riptide.
Rest of my army was in DS reserve.
All of his units was in DSR. As per the scenario rules, his reserves could auto come in turn 2.
(also, the campaign allowed the eldar player, who was actually supposed to be an imperium player to take 3 transports as a ruse. They had to be deployed on the field in his 6 inch deployment zone - eldar trickery was used as a reason for him having 3 razorbacks with TL Las. He was late to join the campaign)
Turn 1
His 3 razor backs did nothing. My Riptide failed nova and took a wound. got hot on his IA attack. Marker lights and FW Strike teams out of range.
Turn 2.
He deep strikes in 2 units of 3 bikes with Shuriken Cannons. As well as 5 Wraithguard with D-scythe w/ a succubus that had a webway portal and a raider with 5 more scytheguard.
No one scatters. he lands them on opposite sides of my troop array. Kills everyone with his 2 units. My riptide interceptor killed one scythe.
Turn 3
My Optimized Stealth formation walks on. My Farsight/crisis/buffmander/marker drone bomb deepstikes in. my sky ray comes on. Kill all his rhinos. I want to stay the hell away from that nightmare in the middle of the table. My sky ray pops his raider with a seeker missile. So that team was now footslogging. He doesn't do anything
Turn 4
4 He deep strikes in, with no scatter, Falcon squad that has the cloud strike rule. out pours 3 dire avenger squads with Autarch - part of the avenger shrine. Also 2 venom? arrived with 5 kabalite warriors. 51 shots later my bomb is all but dead as my buffmander slinks off with 1 wound. 1 of my stealth teams is killed.
I conceeded turn 5 with my ghost keel and skyray left.
Thinking back, the only thing that i feel like i could have done was to not have bunkered down in behind terrain and my aegis line and to have spread everyone out so that he'd only kill 1 unit at a time with his scythes. but then i'd have no ethereal support or ammo dump support.
Maybe a different, less fluffy list with more interceptor? I ran 2 CADs and the OStealth formation.
Well the flawless DeepStrike with Wraithguard will be bruatal at all times. If you spread out and deploy in circles, blasts and Famers are FAR less effective. This is Warhammer 101, right there so that would be the absolute first thing i'd say. Also: Flamers cant kill anything beyond their reach so i mean... i theory he might kill four?
Interceptor is a no brainer to take. Preferably on a Riptide of course. The Drone Net from the Mnt'Ka comes with Interceptor so in thery you can hit the offending unit with Markerlights, then hit them vlawlessly with a Large blast. should end their hopes and dreams pretty abruptly.
I am also of the opinion that the mission you were playing probably favored having Cadre FireBlades to assist with your shooting by the Fire Warriors. Cheap and worth it. Conider that each round he is there in say a 12 man FireWarrior squad is another 6-12 FireWarriors worth of firepower! That is pretty darn significant, plus he can tank some wounds.
Requizen wrote: Necron player here, thinking about adding in some Tau with the express purpose of getting Stormsurges (since Necrons don't really have a decent LoW option).
How are Stormsurges without Markerlight support? I was thinking of just putting in the Heavy Retribution Cadre alongside some Wraiths and stuff and calling it a day, but then I can't activate the D guns or get BS4.
If you want to run two stormsurges (not a bad idea) just grab a FSE CAD:
Commander with drone controller
A single crisis suit
A single crisis suit
A squad of marker drones (attach commander and profit)
A stormsurge (or two, if you prefer)
Very few tax units (and really, a 27 point obsec 3+ armor save 2 wound deep striking flamer unit really is not a tax)
If you prefer to make your drones a little more durable, you can add 36 points to be able to take strike squads instead. Gives you the option to take a 2+ armor on the commander (which also makes him T5). Very worth it IMO but if you can't afford 61 points (cost with the armor) then at least you have options.
Stormsurges without markerlights are not anything special. With markerlights, they are monsters. Whatever you do, don't take that awful formation. If you want two stormsurges (and why shouldn't you?) they really should be as a single unit. Do the hunter contingent or just a simple CAD (IMOCAD is better). Insert wraiths as counter-assault unit and profit
Is one unit of Drones really enough to support it? I feel awkward with it, like, putting in too many points and I'm now running Tau with Necron Allies (boo), put in too few and I have a useless GC (also boo).
How does the Riptide Wing work as a standalone next to Necrons? I can run that with a few Wraith units, they bring some pretty good shooting to go with the durability of Crons. Or do they want support too?
I'm glad this nonsense hasn't become big in europe, we do suffer from equally hilarious Comp rules in some places though. But this is is just beyond nonsense leaving one totally flabbergasted, in my view people should not be supporting things like this.
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