DirtyDeeds wrote: They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.
And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)
Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.
SJ
I thought the formation specifically states "stealth suits" within 6" of a Ghostkeel.. which Shadowsun is not a stealth suit (model) and thus would not benefit????
Some extreme abuses of this otherwise.... O'Vesa could join the unit and get the same benefits.. A dual MP commander could join after deployment and start crushing vehicles at 36"
?
Shadows is in a stealth suit.
Fluff yes. She has a custom suit, but that doesn't matter. Stealth suits are there own model. That is my argument.
DirtyDeeds wrote: They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.
And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)
Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.
SJ
I thought the formation specifically states "stealth suits" within 6" of a Ghostkeel.. which Shadowsun is not a stealth suit (model) and thus would not benefit????
Some extreme abuses of this otherwise.... O'Vesa could join the unit and get the same benefits.. A dual MP commander could join after deployment and start crushing vehicles at 36"
?
Shadows is in a stealth suit.
Fluff yes. She has a custom suit, but that doesn't matter. Stealth suits are there own model. That is my argument.
Um its not fluff. Its the equipment she has equipped
Normally when an IC joins a formation unit they dont get the benefits of the formation. I say usually because if one of those benefits is a flatout special rule (Relentless, Ignores Cover, etc) without condition, that confers since nothing restricts it.
Mirrors specify this formation. She doesnt get anything from it.
Edit: Stupid me, not Relentless lol. Dont know why i keep doing that. I say thats a sharing rule then immediately correct myself like 10 times a day i swear
Vineheart01 wrote: Normally when an IC joins a formation unit they dont get the benefits of the formation. I say usually because if one of those benefits is a flatout special rule (Relentless, Ignores Cover, etc) without condition, that confers since nothing restricts it.
Mirrors specify this formation. She doesnt get anything from it.
Correct. Although shadowsun is part of a unit from the formation, the special rule specifies that models, not units, benefit. If the wording of Wall of Mirrors said "units from this formation" then she would absolutely get those special rules, as she counts as part of that unit. But the wall of mirrors rule does not say that. It says that models from the formation gain those special rules. She is not a model from the formation, nor does wall of mirrors confer to the unit. It only confers to the models that are from the formation. It's rather cut and dry
The Wall of Mirrors: At the start of your shooting phase, this Formation can network their stealth fields to create a Wall of Mirrors. If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting Phase. In addition, their weapons are assumed to strike the rear armor of any vehicle that they hit, no matter what its actual formation.
It does say any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation, not models.
The Wall of Mirrors: At the start of your shooting phase, this Formation can network their stealth fields to create a Wall of Mirrors. If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting Phase. In addition, their weapons are assumed to strike the rear armor of any vehicle that they hit, no matter what its actual formation.
It does say any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this formation, not models.
She's not part of the formation so no wall of mirrors for her.
DirtyDeeds wrote: They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.
And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)
Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.
SJ
Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.
Vineheart01 wrote: Normally when an IC joins a formation unit they dont get the benefits of the formation. I say usually because if one of those benefits is a flatout special rule (Relentless, Ignores Cover, etc) without condition, that confers since nothing restricts it.
Mirrors specify this formation. She doesnt get anything from it.
Correct. Although shadowsun is part of a unit from the formation, the special rule specifies that models, not units, benefit. If the wording of Wall of Mirrors said "units from this formation" then she would absolutely get those special rules, as she counts as part of that unit. But the wall of mirrors rule does not say that. It says that models from the formation gain those special rules. She is not a model from the formation, nor does wall of mirrors confer to the unit. It only confers to the models that are from the formation. It's rather cut and dry
Apologies I misremembered. I was thinking of coordinated firepower, where the firing models benefit (different discussion of course, I just got them mixed up)
Anyhow, then yes she does benefit. She is part of a unit from that formation. Though she herself is not a unit from that formation, she counts as part of the stealth suit unit. That is how ICs work. So she gets all of the bells and whistles that the unit does.
I would just wonder if that a good place to put her. The stealth suits are already super tough to kill without ignores cover, and shadowsun could be giving that to a different unit instead. How about those jinking markerlight drones?
Furthermore, if your opponent CAN ignore cover, that is a really expensive unit. Like really expensive
The problem is that the rules on Independent Characters and Special Rules are insufficient (and somewhat contradictory) when it comes to Formations.
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes." The argument for sharing rules is that an Independent Character joined to a unit from a Formation counts as part of that unit; therefore special rules granted by the Formation to the unit confer to all models in the unit (including the IC) - similar to Stubborn where if at least one model has the rule, then all models in the unit gain the effect.
"An Independent Character might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character." The argument against sharing rules is that an Independent Character only benefits from a special rule that the unit has if the rule states so; therefore special rules granted by the formation to the unit are only granted to models from the Formation and their benefits do not confer to the Independent Character - similar to Jink where if a unit declares it will use the special rule, then only models with the rule gain the effect.
In my opinion the second interpretation should be preferred since it relies on a specific rule regarding the sharing of special rules (whereas the other rule is for general rules purposes); but I can see why others would disagree.
I agree with Peregrim.. otherwise you can finf some serious abuses. Thank you for quoting the rules.
I did finally get a chance to re-read wall of mirrors. Originally like most formations I thought it read models in the formation. So in this case it's a Harry situation.
As I read it... The first rule quoted is for all effects on the unit, like targeting, shooting, psychic etc, Essentially not referring to special rules of the unit. Whereas the second does.
Grizzyzz wrote: I agree with Peregrim.. otherwise you can finf some serious abuses. Thank you for quoting the rules.
I did finally get a chance to re-read wall of mirrors. Originally like most formations I thought it read models in the formation. So in this case it's a Harry situation.
As I read it... The first rule quoted is for all effects on the unit, like targeting, shooting, psychic etc, Essentially not referring to special rules of the unit. Whereas the second does.
It doesn't get serious abuse because it DOES stat that it has to be a "unit of stealth battlesuits". Having shadowsun join (who is also in a stealth battle suit) means the squad is still entirely a "unit of stealth battle suits" which would not be the case with other IC
DirtyDeeds wrote: They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.
And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)
Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.
SJ
Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.
This is the case if it stated the stealth team unit got the benefit over the stealth suit models in the formation as that refers to the models with stealth suits purchased as part of the formation unfortunately. It's pretty clear.
DirtyDeeds wrote: They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.
And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)
Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.
SJ
Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.
This is the case if it stated the stealth team unit got the benefit over the stealth suit models in the formation as that refers to the models with stealth suits purchased as part of the formation unfortunately. It's pretty clear.
and again, the Wall of Mirrors rule specifically states units, not models
Load breachers and an ethereal in a devilfish with drones and use storm of fire when it gets in close. 9" away the devil fish is spitting out 10str 5 shots plus it could take two seekers.
DirtyDeeds wrote: They're talking about sharing the special rules from the Optomised Stealth Cadre formation. I take the stance that Shadowsun is NOT from the formation and will not be able to benefit from the OSC rules.
And you would be correct. I answered this previously a few posts up as well =)
Actually, no, he is not correct. While the BRB does state that formation benefits only effect the units in the formation, and that units cannot belong to more than one formation, the IC rules create an exception by stating that an attached IC is treated as being a member of that unit for all rules purposes. It further deliniates that benefits or penelties received while attached do apply to the IC as well as the unit, while reiterating that unit special rules are not necessarily shared without specific permission. This informs us that an IC can indeed benefit from a formation's ability if the ability is used while the IC is attached. As always, each instance should be taken on a case by case basis. In the case of Shadowsun, she is attached during the movement phase while Wall of Mirrors occurs at the start of the shooting phase, which means at when WoM is triggered, Shadowsun counts as a member of the Stealth Team and would gain the same benefit as the Stealth Team.
SJ
Ill just requote this for you guys who came in late.
This is the case if it stated the stealth team unit got the benefit over the stealth suit models in the formation as that refers to the models with stealth suits purchased as part of the formation unfortunately. It's pretty clear.
and again, the Wall of Mirrors rule specifically states units, not models
Reading it again you're right I remembered it wrong, but by the same logic that's lead to it from the IC rules wouldn't that mean that any IC that has joined the stealth suits will actually get it? Cause it's not even specifying that they need a stealth suit. Or did I miss something?
Reading it again you're right I remembered it wrong, but by the same logic that's lead to it from the IC rules wouldn't that mean that any IC that has joined the stealth suits will actually get it? Cause it's not even specifying that they need a stealth suit. Or did I miss something?
That is essentially my point on why if an IC gains the benefits this can be abused. It says any unit of stealth battlesuits from the formation. If a commander joins it is still a unit of s.b. from the formation.
Above it was clearly quoted from the brb by perigrim on why the IC won't gain the bonus. But as is majority of the rules.. many interpretations.. I'm done arguing. Back to tactics!
I like the looks of the Ranged Support Cadre. Double markerlights is pretty sweet, and Shrouded makes Pathfinders viable. Broadsides are still one of the most efficient killing machines in the game, and who wouldn't want to make them even more reliable? In a DBC or a non-ITC Hunter Contingent, they can pretty much wipe anything you want off the board that isn't a land raider.
The standard CAD is also pretty nifty if you abuse it a little. Darkstrider firing a Tidewall gunfort is menacing, to say the least. Instant Death on T6? Yes, please!
The Retaliation Cadre is a very powerful formation, nothing quite like mobile Broadsides, assured deep strike, and no real tax in it.
The Skysweep Missile Defense formation isn't exactly bad either, if you want Skyrays it gives you access to them and some bonuses. The Devilfish is a pretty big tax, but if you have a use for it in the game it's not bad either. It's more of an issue of how useful you can make the extra abilities, and how much you want three Skyrays.
The Air Superiority Cadre can actually be good too. The Razorshark Fighter is much better than the bomber, and isn't so much bad as it doesn't normally provide us anything we can't get in other places just as well or better. However, with the formation, they get a lot of benefits that put them into contention for a solid choice if you're bringing 3 of them.
They get better BS against Jetbikes, Skimmers, and any type of flier, which will probably be active in a large portion of games played. They also get to just show up from reserves if any of those types are in play for the enemy, so against Eldar they're coming in asap and getting a bonus against the Bikes, they're most likely doing the same against Necrons due to Ghost Arks.
As long as any of them are in play, you get a free D3 markerlight hits on any target, which doesn't sound great but remember they automatically happen, meaning there's no roll to hit or anything and can do wonders against invisibility. Additionally they can use it to fire their own Seaker Missiles since they don't actually fire the Markers themselves.
Now let's look at their weapons, assuming you upgrade their Burst Cannon, which I don't know why you wouldn't, to a Missile Pod you have the same number of shots as a Ghostkeel for 150pts. However, you do lose the Ghostkeel secondary weapon, but gain the ability to partially overcharge your main weapon in that you only lose 4 shots for the Large Blast, as the Missile Pod is independent of the Quad Turret, meaning that in the situation of both Over Charging, the Fighter actually has an extra two Missile Pod shots that the Ghostkeel wouldn't. Additionally the Fighter has an extra 6" base range on its weapons than a Ghostkeel.
So ultimately the Fighter is comparable to the Ghostkeel in terms of fire power, but there's a difference in points, one being 150, while the other being 130, now if you account for the two Seekers the Fighter gets at 8 points each, it brings the cost down to 134pts, which is very comparable, and it's not like Seekers are bad by any means, especially when the thing generates its own Markers for them.
That's basically it, in that formation the Fighters really aren't bad, the Ghostkeel is still probably better, but there's definitely the possibility of making Fighters competitive if you wanted. More so, you could even catch some people off guard with them.
Tinkrr, do you have a list I imagine you need atleast 2000 pts before playing the air cadre? Jeffersonian000 how many point is it, 3 ghost keel one big suit drop or how do you play it? Also marko mander?
I don't really have a list, I was just looking at formations and saw that one and it got me thinking. I think at 1850 it's not out of the question, especially if you're thinking of a large Ghostkeel unit or something as some do. You can even use it as an alternative to Broadsides if you want the mobility and such.
Yes it's 450 points with no other upgrades than the missile pods but here's what you get for 450 points:
18 S7 Ap4 shots at 30" (can be made into 3 Large Blasts at S8 Ap4 with 6 S7 AP4 shots)
D3 Marker Lights on any target you choose (including invisible units)
6 Seeker Missiles
On fliers, that unfortunately have BS3 instead of BS4 like other vehicles and is probably their biggest weakness.
Though points wise it's almost 7 Broadsides or 3 Ghostkeels with some upgrades. Probably still too expensive for how much you get but it's not as far from competitive as some people would assume, as the fire power and survivability is certainly there., If it was possible to drop the Seekers from the cost, then they'd be truly competitive as they are.
1500pts, 2 Ghostkeel, two squads of 3 Stealthsuite, 16 Marker Drones, 1 Riptide, 1 Missile Pod Commander, one squad of Missilesides, and three solo Crisis suits. Add a third Ghostkeel and more Drones to push that up to 1750, or hgher.
I see it as a perimeter patrol calling in reinforcements to spring an ambush. Or something like that.
Hey all! This may be a YMDC but figured that someone may have either thought of this or tried it...
Has anyone tried to roll on Nova Reactor right before the Riptide Deepstrikes on the board? Nova Reactor is supposed to occur at the beginning of the Riptide's movement phase and whether or not you succeeded might influence where you Deepstrike the unit, assuming you can do that. Couldn't the placement marker and scatter roll be considered part of the Riptide's movement phase? I plan on running the Retaliation Cadre, and never really considered Deepstriking a Riptide before.
Whether I wanted the Str 9 Ordinance Blast or the 12 rending shots... I can see a failed Nova Reactor roll changing my initial plan for the unit.
Bach wrote: Hey all! This may be a YMDC but figured that someone may have either thought of this or tried it...
Has anyone taken the Retaliation Cadre and tried to roll on Nova Reactor right before the Riptide Deepstrikes on the board? Nova Reactor is supposed to occur at the beginning of the Riptide's movement phase and whether or not you succeeded might influence where you Deepstrike the unit, assuming you can do that. Couldn't the placement marker and scatter roll be considered part of the Riptide's movement phase?
Whether I wanted the Str 9 Ordinance Blast or the 12 rending shots... I can see a failed Nova Reactor roll changing my initial plan for the unit.
Wishful thinking?
There is a thread in YDMC on this, probably still on the first page. Take note of when you DS and when you use Nova Reactor.
jeffersonian000 wrote: 1500pts, 2 Ghostkeel, two squads of 3 Stealthsuite, 16 Marker Drones, 1 Riptide, 1 Missile Pod Commander, one squad of Missilesides, and three solo Crisis suits. Add a third Ghostkeel and more Drones to push that up to 1750, or hgher.
I see it as a perimeter patrol calling in reinforcements to spring an ambush. Or something like that.
SJ
The one thing I don't like is the single Broadside as it feels like you're missing out on a lot of power from Relentless Broadsides, since they're already insanely strong and the Relentless makes them kind of over the top.
Retaliation Cadre is usually around 1k points when you use it. Thats not maxed out, thats with a commander, one riptide, full broadside, and 3-4 crisis suits split between the 3 units.
Though the Retal Cadre to me is basically a squad number tax for relentless broadsides. The +1BS when DSing isnt super amazing, though its a nice perk, and unless you have a small broadside squad you CANT deepstrike them otherwise your odds of mishap are pretty damn high, which removes the "all arrive automatically" part since the entire formation isnt in reserves.
Personally, relentless broadsides > auto T2 deepstrike. Far too many times the main target i wanted with my broadsides are either around a wall or JUST out of range, so i shoot a less favorable target.
Ive also been running the Hunter Cadre instead of a CAD lately in friendly games because 50-60 firewarriors with run + shoot or shoot + run is hilariously effective. Not sure if it would be worth it in a competitive scene though.
jeffersonian000 wrote: 1500pts, 2 Ghostkeel, two squads of 3 Stealthsuite, 16 Marker Drones, 1 Riptide, 1 Missile Pod Commander, one squad of Missilesides, and three solo Crisis suits. Add a third Ghostkeel and more Drones to push that up to 1750, or hgher.
I see it as a perimeter patrol calling in reinforcements to spring an ambush. Or something like that.
SJ
The one thing I don't like is the single Broadside as it feels like you're missing out on a lot of power from Relentless Broadsides, since they're already insanely strong and the Relentless makes them kind of over the top.
It's one SQUAD of Missile-sides, not ONE Missile-side. I like 3, with 6 Missile Drones.
jeffersonian000 wrote: 1500pts, 2 Ghostkeel, two squads of 3 Stealthsuite, 16 Marker Drones, 1 Riptide, 1 Missile Pod Commander, one squad of Missilesides, and three solo Crisis suits. Add a third Ghostkeel and more Drones to push that up to 1750, or hgher.
I see it as a perimeter patrol calling in reinforcements to spring an ambush. Or something like that.
SJ
The one thing I don't like is the single Broadside as it feels like you're missing out on a lot of power from Relentless Broadsides, since they're already insanely strong and the Relentless makes them kind of over the top.
It's one SQUAD of Missile-sides, not ONE Missile-side. I like 3, with 6 Missile Drones.
SJ
Ah ok, that makes a lot more sense. The drones are actually really good when you're running the Drone Network too, since they're basically Missile Pods for one less point than what you'd spend on a Missile Pod on a Crisis Suit. Just throw them in the back and pew-pew with mobile Broadsides that have bonus missile pods.
Yeah, I noticed that, too. The Commander just has Missile Pods as well, no sig systems. Originally want to run thise Missile Drone with a Drone Controll ... until it was pointed out I can't, hence the Drone-Net!
Originally I had the OSC a bit more minimal with only one ghost with raker and burst cannon, the stealths were full sized with marker drones and such and the broadsides were missilesides for antiair. But I realised I wasn't using the ghosts to anywhere near better potential and wanted to use the hrr on the broadsides, watching a battle report having one of the few times you wanted the hrr over the missiles and really though you want the missiles 9/10 probably, I like the look of the rifle and that 1/10 when it's better its sort of punishing not to have it. I think I'm all set on the OSC with the retaliation though I was thinking about the xv8 loadouts and if the target locks on the broadsides could be better used elsewhere. I made the mistake when assembling xv8s before so have 3 stuck with dual missiles and 3 stuck with dual fusion.
Bach wrote: Hey all! This may be a YMDC but figured that someone may have either thought of this or tried it...
Has anyone tried to roll on Nova Reactor right before the Riptide Deepstrikes on the board? Nova Reactor is supposed to occur at the beginning of the Riptide's movement phase and whether or not you succeeded might influence where you Deepstrike the unit, assuming you can do that. Couldn't the placement marker and scatter roll be considered part of the Riptide's movement phase? I plan on running the Retaliation Cadre, and never really considered Deepstriking a Riptide before.
Whether I wanted the Str 9 Ordinance Blast or the 12 rending shots... I can see a failed Nova Reactor roll changing my initial plan for the unit.
Wishful thinking?
You roll for DS at start of turn which happens before you roll for nova at the start of movement. All reserves have to be rolled for and placed before movement phase starts.
1x Riptide (Stim Injector, EWO, Earthcaste Pilot Array*, Ion Accelerator)
3x Missile Sides (EWO maybe)
Xx Missile Drones (based on points of list)
He's with the Broadsides, which are Relentless. There is no loss of JSJ, as he still only moves 6", he just won't be jetting back in the Assault phase while still attached.
1x Riptide (Stim Injector, EWO, Earthcaste Pilot Array*, Ion Accelerator)
3x Missile Sides (EWO maybe)
Xx Missile Drones (based on points of list)
He's with the Broadsides, which are Relentless. There is no loss of JSJ, as he still only moves 6", he just won't be jetting back in the Assault phase while still attached.
SJ
that is literally the definition of losing the ability to JSJ
1x Riptide (Stim Injector, EWO, Earthcaste Pilot Array*, Ion Accelerator)
3x Missile Sides (EWO maybe)
Xx Missile Drones (based on points of list)
He's with the Broadsides, which are Relentless. There is no loss of JSJ, as he still only moves 6", he just won't be jetting back in the Assault phase while still attached.
SJ
JSJ is literally the assault phase movement, not the Jetpack Infantry rule set :/.
arthorn wrote: Tinkrr, do you have a list I imagine you need atleast 2000 pts before playing the air cadre? Jeffersonian000 how many point is it, 3 ghost keel one big suit drop or how do you play it? Also marko mander?
Haven't lost a game yet. Fighters are devastating. D3 markers is all you need. Feel free to load out crisis suits to flavor. I like this loadout and know what it can handle.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Retaliation Cadre is usually around 1k points when you use it. Thats not maxed out, thats with a commander, one riptide, full broadside, and 3-4 crisis suits split between the 3 units.
Though the Retal Cadre to me is basically a squad number tax for relentless broadsides. The +1BS when DSing isnt super amazing, though its a nice perk, and unless you have a small broadside squad you CANT deepstrike them otherwise your odds of mishap are pretty damn high, which removes the "all arrive automatically" part since the entire formation isnt in reserves.
The retaliation I posted just above comes to ~1060 points. On the contrary, the +1BS is giving you 5 free markerlights and is a huge bonus. Especially If you have a few extra to give around. Running a commander with warscaper drone I can drop on any terrain I want and not worry about testing (MTC), and their effective range allows extreme flexibility to land safely. Also... Running homing beacons goes along way
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and counterstrike cadre is amazing in maelstrom!
1x Riptide (Stim Injector, EWO, Earthcaste Pilot Array*, Ion Accelerator)
3x Missile Sides (EWO maybe)
Xx Missile Drones (based on points of list)
He's with the Broadsides, which are Relentless. There is no loss of JSJ, as he still only moves 6", he just won't be jetting back in the Assault phase while still attached.
SJ
that is literally the definition of losing the ability to JSJ
You can still JSJ with mixed models, the only limitation is that those models must remain in coherency.
I've used it before to get range on missile drones,whilst repositioning them to buffer (or hide) from incoming firepower.
1x Riptide (Stim Injector, EWO, Earthcaste Pilot Array*, Ion Accelerator)
3x Missile Sides (EWO maybe)
Xx Missile Drones (based on points of list)
He's with the Broadsides, which are Relentless. There is no loss of JSJ, as he still only moves 6", he just won't be jetting back in the Assault phase while still attached.
SJ
that is literally the definition of losing the ability to JSJ
You can still JSJ with mixed models, the only limitation is that those models must remain in coherency.
I've used it before to get range on missile drones,whilst repositioning them to buffer (or hide) from incoming firepower.
And then you are still missing the point of JSJ is getting your entire squad out of range/LoS so they cannot be shot at during the enemies turn.
Grizzlyzz, 6 burst Canon's on xv suits while you have stealts isn't that a lot of bc? because I would think cib, air fragment combo would do well as well
1xTarget Acquisition Team Piranha:Fusion Blaster, 2xSeeker Missiles, Disruption Pod
2xPiranhas:2xFusion Blasters, 4xSeeker Missilies
3xPiranhas:3xFusion Blasters, 6xSeeker Missilies
5xPiranhas:6xSeeker Missiles
Most likely TOs will rule that you can not leave the same turn you come on, so I am playing with that assumption. I decided to transform the formation into a seeker missile farm more so than a drone farm. If I have to stay on for one turn may aswell fire a storm of seeker missilies, the list has 1 unit of 1 with 2 seeker missiles as required 1 unit of 2 with 4 seeker missiles another unit of 3 with six seekers, and one unit of 5 with 6 seekers.
If I go first I am capable of doing a massive seeker attack that should catch most opponents off guard and possible disable my enemy. I can potentially easily kill 3 scatbike units, 3 rhinos, or even a wraithknight. Using Killing Blow for the re-roll to wound and target acquisition for up to 2 sources of tank-hunter I should be able to do this rather easily or atleast the numbers will be in my favor.
I am concern about not have enough bite in the list. I have some ap 2 with the riptide, crisis suits, and the piranhas but no where near the amount that Tau is known for, this is my major concern.
I have dakka because of the RELENTESS broadsides and their missilie drones and the drone farm! The drone farm will create 10 man drone squad, 6 man drone squad, 4 man drone squad, and a 2 man drone squad. When they come back on turn 3 they will create another 22 drones and have 18 more seeker missilies . The main problem with a drone farm is that using it just for drones is not worth it. Drones will never do that much damage but seeker missiles quickly make up their value. The formation is 659 points on turn 3 you get 408 points worth of free drones and seeker missiles and if they managed to kill a piranha but not the squad the piranha comes back, and hopefully 36 seeker missiles can do 251 points worth of damage
Turn 3 is when the list gets insane at this point I will have 44 gune drones, 2 of those being 10 man squads. I will also let loose another storm of seeker missiles so they will have to survive another potential alpha strike. The drone network increases the bs of all the drones so the gun drones will put in work against infantry. What do you guys think?
For a battlesuit army, how do people feel the optimal way of constructing one is? The way I see it we have 3 options with different advantages however I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions!
1) A DBC which gives us The Killing Blow special rule along with relentless Broadsides, however this means we are stuck with the FSE signature systems and Warlord traits.
2) A FSE CAD giving us Obsec Crisis Suits along with access to FW Riptide Variants/Tetras/Skyrays, but with the same problems as a DBC.
,
3) Just running a Tau Empire Retaliation formation giving us Buffmander access and letting us use the stronger TE Warlord traits.
I really want a battleship army but the different options all make me feel like I'm being taxed, and it's hard to choose!
I posted a DBC Ret Cader + Drone-Net + Piranha Firestream in the Army list forum, but can't seems to have disappeared. I'll posted it here to show a maxed Firestream wing:
I like that I think I will make some adjustments to mine, Your broadside unit is really strong, I never really thought of making a deathstar out of it are you concered about ap 2.
TheBoy wrote: Load breachers and an ethereal in a devilfish with drones and use storm of fire when it gets in close. 9" away the devil fish is spitting out 10str 5 shots plus it could take two seekers.
Really just needs the Ethereal. If you give it the overwatch upgrade, then having the breachers makes for a fun Fish of Fury response to assaults.
notredameguy10 wrote: Just want to verify:
Shielded missile drones attached to Riptides that are in a riptide wing also benefit from the Riptide Hailfire, correct?
notredameguy10 wrote: Just want to verify:
Shielded missile drones attached to Riptides that are in a riptide wing also benefit from the Riptide Hailfire, correct?
It says unit so I believe you are good to go!
Hmm if thats the case I could see that being really good paired with a Drone net. If you maxed a squad of riptides to a unit of 3 in the riptide wing and had 6 shielded missile drones, that would be 24 extra Str 7 AP4 shots during that Riptide Hailfire at BS3 instead of BS2 and any additional Markerlights as well obviously.
So a squad of 3 Riptides with IA, SMS, Target Locks, and 6 SMDs would put out (assuming Ripple Fire Nova Charge)
6 Str 8 / AP2 / Large Blasts @ BS4 (or BS5 if shooting at something another riptide shot at)
48 Str 5 / AP5 / Ignore Cover and LoS @ BS4 (or BS5 if shooting at something another riptide shot at)
24 Str 7 / AP4 shots @ BS3
at a max of 4 different targets. And with Drone net you would have a minimum of 16 marker lights at BS3 buffing those shots as well..
They still have the same problem nobody takes them for. Theyre really easy to remove compared to the Riptide, force leadership tests when they die, and are really expensive. They are 2 drones merged into one without any extra wounds, but cost just as much (1 more actually, but they are T6 so i guess its not "quite" twice as much).
Much like my problem with Shield Drones in general, they die to bolters too easy. Its somewhat rare my drones get their armor pen'd unless there wasnt any other targets for the ap4+ guns to shoot at, so i might as well use Gun/ML drones so it DOES something before it dies.
Shielded Missile Drones are essentially in the same boat because of their cost.
Vineheart01 wrote: They still have the same problem nobody takes them for. Theyre really easy to remove compared to the Riptide, force leadership tests when they die, and are really expensive. They are 2 drones merged into one without any extra wounds, but cost just as much (1 more actually, but they are T6 so i guess its not "quite" twice as much).
Much like my problem with Shield Drones in general, they die to bolters too easy. Its somewhat rare my drones get their armor pen'd unless there wasnt any other targets for the ap4+ guns to shoot at, so i might as well use Gun/ML drones so it DOES something before it dies.
Shielded Missile Drones are essentially in the same boat because of their cost.
Just stick all 6 behind your three riptides, Your riptides will be the ones hit and not your drones, but you can still do a look out sir if someone shoots an AP2 weapon at you if you so choose
Vineheart01 wrote: Actually if you could LoS i would take them, since that guarantees the shield gets used and not the armor against a bolter shot.
Riptides cannot be characters sadly. O'Vesa is the only one we can get, and hes unusable now thanks to the "formation" hes in.
oops thats my bad about LoS. But you can still keep them behind your 3 riptides and that would all but guarantee they would not be shot at unless you wanted them to
arthorn wrote: Grizzlyzz, 6 burst Canon's on xv suits while you have stealts isn't that a lot of bc? because I would think cib, air fragment combo would do well as well
S5 is very flexible and the stealth suits aren't really offensive. They provide the beacons for me and generally camp objectives. CIBs and Air bursts are great. More expensive though, so in my list they won't fit. Plus I try to be wysiwyg and don't own more then like 3 CIBs haha
arthorn wrote: Grizzlyzz, 6 burst Canon's on xv suits while you have stealts isn't that a lot of bc? because I would think cib, air fragment combo would do well as well
S5 is very flexible and the stealth suits aren't really offensive. They provide the beacons for me and generally camp objectives. CIBs and Air bursts are great. More expensive though, so in my list they won't fit. Plus I try to be wysiwyg and don't own more then like 3 CIBs haha
I make my own CIBs using Burst Cannons and Plasma Rifles. Cut the ends of the Burst Cannon barrels off and glue on the end of a plasma rifle in their place. Simple and cheap but it gets the job done
The problem with Shielded Missile Drones isn't that they are easier to kill, it's that they're 25 points for a Missile Pod. A Missile Pod simply isn't worth the 25pts when we have so many possible options of gaining one in other places, and the extra cost is from the Shield Generator, which you never really want to use as you'll try to body block with the Riptide, or simply JSJ out of range.
There will usually just be a better place to gain Missile Pod equivalent shots than the Shielded Drones due to points cost.
Tinkrr wrote: The problem with Shielded Missile Drones isn't that they are easier to kill, it's that they're 25 points for a Missile Pod. A Missile Pod simply isn't worth the 25pts when we have so many possible options of gaining one in other places, and the extra cost is from the Shield Generator, which you never really want to use as you'll try to body block with the Riptide, or simply JSJ out of range.
There will usually just be a better place to gain Missile Pod equivalent shots than the Shielded Drones due to points cost.
Normally I would agree with that. I was just putting it out there that it could be worth the points if used in an alpha strike Riptide Wing in which it gets double the shots for one turn as well as an auto +1BS from Drone Net
Its also 150pts for those 6 drones. I'd rather field a Hammerhead, which is the same cost, and have either an S10 single shot or S6 large blast from across the board.
Tinkrr wrote: The problem with Shielded Missile Drones isn't that they are easier to kill, it's that they're 25 points for a Missile Pod. A Missile Pod simply isn't worth the 25pts when we have so many possible options of gaining one in other places, and the extra cost is from the Shield Generator, which you never really want to use as you'll try to body block with the Riptide, or simply JSJ out of range.
There will usually just be a better place to gain Missile Pod equivalent shots than the Shielded Drones due to points cost.
Normally I would agree with that. I was just putting it out there that it could be worth the points if used in an alpha strike Riptide Wing in which it gets double the shots for one turn as well as an auto +1BS from Drone Net
The problem is that you're then putting 10pts of value into the extra double shot you get that one time, which could almost be used to just buy another Missile Pod somewhere else.
It just seems like a tactical turret, or Missile Drones on Broadsides, or well anything else is just more point efficient in the long run :/.
Tinkrr wrote: The problem with Shielded Missile Drones isn't that they are easier to kill, it's that they're 25 points for a Missile Pod. A Missile Pod simply isn't worth the 25pts when we have so many possible options of gaining one in other places, and the extra cost is from the Shield Generator, which you never really want to use as you'll try to body block with the Riptide, or simply JSJ out of range.
There will usually just be a better place to gain Missile Pod equivalent shots than the Shielded Drones due to points cost.
This. Two shielded missile drones gives you 2 missile pods at BS2, with T4 and 1W each and a 4++ invulnerable save and costs 50 points.
For 52 points you can have a Crisis suit with 2 missile pods. It is BS3, T4 and 2W with a 3+ armour save.
If the missile drone suffers an unsaved wound, you now only have 1 missile pod. If the Crisis suit suffers an unsaved wound (as long as it is S7-) you still have 2 missile pods. If the missile drone suffers an unsaved wound, it'll spark a morale test for your riptide. If the crisis suit suffers an unsaved wound then nothing else happens. The drones have to shoot at the same target as the riptide, unless you use a hardpoint to give the riptide a target lock, in which case you're not using it for an EWO, VT or Stims. Crisis is on its own so no worries there. The missile drones are more survivable against single shot S8+ as if they take a wound you only lose one drone whereas the crisis loses both wounds. The missile drones are more survivable against AP3-. The crisis suit is more survivable against AP4+. The crisis suit is free to move anywhere, the drones have to stick with the riptide, which may result in them being out of range of the enemy they want to shoot at.
Let's be realistic, Drones are basically BS3 now with the Drone Net, so we can generally assume they're at that value if we're talking about special Drones.
I played in a local 1850 point RTT yesterday. The format was ITC and the missions were ITC 1,2, and 3. I'm taking my Tau to LVO this year and saw this tournament as a good opportunity for some practice with the missions and the new Tau codex. Below is the list I used:
Tau Dawn Blade Contingent (Primary detachment)
Core: Retaliation Cadre
Commander (warlord) w/ 2x Fusion blaster
1 Crisis Suit w/ 2x Fusion blaster
1 Crisis Suit w/ 2x Plasma rifle
1 Crisis Suit with 2x Plasma rifle
1 Riptide with Ion accelerator, twin-linked plasma rifle and early warning override
1 Broadside with High yield missiles and smart missiles and early warning override
Combined arms detachment Tau Empire
1 Ethereal
10 Kroot
10 Kroot
Void shield generator with 3 shields
Formation Tau Empire
Ghostkeel Wing
1 Ghostkeel w/ Ion raker, Twin-linked fusion blaster and early warning override
1 Ghostkeel w/ Ion raker, Twin-linked fusion blaster and early warning override
1 Ghostkeel w/ Ion raker, Twin-linked fusion blaster and early warning override
Going into the event the overall plan was for the void shield to protect my piranhas and marker drones and take advantage of the stealth bubble provided by the ghostkeels and just farm drones and fire seeker missiles when needed and let my retaliation cadre pick off tanks and other high priority targets. I took double firestream wing because 8 individual piranhas gave me a little play for piranhas to zoom across the board to cap objectives when needed.
Overall the plan worked well. I finished 3-0. I didn't bother farming drones hard my first 2 games. I think I maybe made 8 drones extra in each of those games. Game 1 was against Tau. My opponent called it turn 5 because I was way up on malestrom and still had much of my army left to jet around the board. Game 2 was against dark eldar venom spam. He couldn't get through my void shield. It was a rough game for him. It took me all 7 turns to table him. My third game on the other hand I went all out making 16 drones per turn. I was up against dark angel wolf star and needed all the fire power I could get. We made it through 3 full turns before calling the game short because of time.
Closing remarks. Killing blow is great (when I can remember to use it). 40 drones that get to re-roll wounds is awesome at pulling chunks off death stars. I will bring a void shield in all my lists. and who cares about jinking when you just fly off the board next turn.
Tinkrr wrote: The problem with Shielded Missile Drones isn't that they are easier to kill, it's that they're 25 points for a Missile Pod. A Missile Pod simply isn't worth the 25pts when we have so many possible options of gaining one in other places, and the extra cost is from the Shield Generator, which you never really want to use as you'll try to body block with the Riptide, or simply JSJ out of range.
There will usually just be a better place to gain Missile Pod equivalent shots than the Shielded Drones due to points cost.
This. Two shielded missile drones gives you 2 missile pods at BS2, with T4 and 1W each and a 4++ invulnerable save and costs 50 points.
For 52 points you can have a Crisis suit with 2 missile pods. It is BS3, T4 and 2W with a 3+ armour save.
If the missile drone suffers an unsaved wound, you now only have 1 missile pod. If the Crisis suit suffers an unsaved wound (as long as it is S7-) you still have 2 missile pods.
If the missile drone suffers an unsaved wound, it'll spark a morale test for your riptide. If the crisis suit suffers an unsaved wound then nothing else happens.
The drones have to shoot at the same target as the riptide, unless you use a hardpoint to give the riptide a target lock, in which case you're not using it for an EWO, VT or Stims. Crisis is on its own so no worries there.
The missile drones are more survivable against single shot S8+ as if they take a wound you only lose one drone whereas the crisis loses both wounds.
The missile drones are more survivable against AP3-.
The crisis suit is more survivable against AP4+.
The crisis suit is free to move anywhere, the drones have to stick with the riptide, which may result in them being out of range of the enemy they want to shoot at.
yeah... got a few things wrong there
SMD are T6
SMD are BS3 with the drone net that I mentioned
Tinkrr wrote: The problem with Shielded Missile Drones isn't that they are easier to kill, it's that they're 25 points for a Missile Pod. A Missile Pod simply isn't worth the 25pts when we have so many possible options of gaining one in other places, and the extra cost is from the Shield Generator, which you never really want to use as you'll try to body block with the Riptide, or simply JSJ out of range.
There will usually just be a better place to gain Missile Pod equivalent shots than the Shielded Drones due to points cost.
Normally I would agree with that. I was just putting it out there that it could be worth the points if used in an alpha strike Riptide Wing in which it gets double the shots for one turn as well as an auto +1BS from Drone Net
The problem is that you're then putting 10pts of value into the extra double shot you get that one time, which could almost be used to just buy another Missile Pod somewhere else.
It just seems like a tactical turret, or Missile Drones on Broadsides, or well anything else is just more point efficient in the long run :/.
Keep in mind with 3 riptides in front of them there is a very strong chance that you will not be losing many if any of them during the course of your game. the same cannot be said of missile drones with broadsides which die much easier
jeffersonian000 wrote: I posted a DBC Ret Cader + Drone-Net + Piranha Firestream in the Army list forum, but can't seems to have disappeared. I'll posted it here to show a maxed Firestream wing:
Well, I did say I couldn't find the actual list I had previously posted, so posted that one as an example as it was still in a word doc on my phone. The correct DBC list is in my Battlescribe, and does not have TE sigs on the FSE Commander.
The goal of that list was to field almost 200 Drones over the course of a game, both the Drones paid for and the Drones spawned, all at BS3, and the Ret Drones BS4 on turn 2. Of course, it pushes US $2300.00 retail, so its not exactly a good buy-in for a first time Tau player.
GreaterGouda wrote: Shielded missile drones also change the average save of a riptide/riptide unit from 2 to 4. So they help protect against grav weapons.
Saves are not based off an Majority. You would roll for the closest riptide until it dies and use its 2+ armor save the entire time, then move on to the next closest model. Majority is only for toughness
GreaterGouda wrote: Shielded missile drones also change the average save of a riptide/riptide unit from 2 to 4. So they help protect against grav weapons.
Saves are not based off an Majority. You would roll for the closest riptide until it dies and use its 2+ armor save the entire time, then move on to the next closest model. Majority is only for toughness
Which is why you place the Drones to "shield" their Riptide by being closer.
GreaterGouda wrote: Shielded missile drones also change the average save of a riptide/riptide unit from 2 to 4. So they help protect against grav weapons.
Saves are not based off an Majority. You would roll for the closest riptide until it dies and use its 2+ armor save the entire time, then move on to the next closest model. Majority is only for toughness
Which is why you place the Drones to "shield" their Riptide by being closer.
SJ
As I previously mentioned, in a riptide wing with a drone net in your detachment, I would prefer to have my drones BEHIND the riptides, not in front of them.
GreaterGouda wrote: Shielded missile drones also change the average save of a riptide/riptide unit from 2 to 4. So they help protect against grav weapons.
Saves are not based off an Majority. You would roll for the closest riptide until it dies and use its 2+ armor save the entire time, then move on to the next closest model. Majority is only for toughness
I'm pretty sure he's specifically talking about grav weapons, in which case they would wound the unit on a 4 rather than a 2.
What's people's opinion on the neuro jammer thing?
It's extremely cheap and it looked interesting but I mostly took it in the end because I just had the points leftover and nothing else could fit. I sort of think it could be useful in some cases like really annoying scatter bikes, but obviously not as a proper counter to them; I feel the ghostkeel in the osc would do a better job at that, they're not that tough afterall just being so cheap is their main issue.
GreaterGouda wrote: Shielded missile drones also change the average save of a riptide/riptide unit from 2 to 4. So they help protect against grav weapons.
Saves are not based off an Majority. You would roll for the closest riptide until it dies and use its 2+ armor save the entire time, then move on to the next closest model. Majority is only for toughness
Which is why you place the Drones to "shield" their Riptide by being closer.
SJ
As I previously mentioned, in a riptide wing with a drone net in your detachment, I would prefer to have my drones BEHIND the riptides, not in front of them.
Then you are doing it wrong versus Grav. There entire point of having a positionable 4+ save is to position it for advantage, in this case to tank Grav shots. If moral is your worry, take a bonding knife.
So hey, over the weekend I was talking with some friends, and how I wanted to run a ghostkeel wing (now that I have my third). Has anyone run this yet?
I was looking at ghostwing + counterstrike cadre. Effectively with disruption pods by devilfish are getting 2+ cover saves which is nice.
Apologies if this has been answered in this thread before, but how are people feeling about the Y'Vahra and Tetras nowadays? Are they worth taking a CAD over the new Hunter Contingent? Is it worth it to take a small CAD alongside the new detachments to fit them in?
Tarnag wrote: Apologies if this has been answered in this thread before, but how are people feeling about the Y'Vahra and Tetras nowadays? Are they worth taking a CAD over the new Hunter Contingent? Is it worth it to take a small CAD alongside the new detachments to fit them in?
Formations do not allow them and the formations are too good not use. That is their issue. That said, I am going to start using a CAD to use tetras, as I just bought some before the update and haven't even used them yet =/
They are still an excellent source of markerlights, and definitely viable still. Since I think FW blanket made all rules 40k approved, the Y'Vahra is definitely awesome. Again though, you need the CAD "tax" to bring one.
Tarnag wrote: Apologies if this has been answered in this thread before, but how are people feeling about the Y'Vahra and Tetras nowadays? Are they worth taking a CAD over the new Hunter Contingent? Is it worth it to take a small CAD alongside the new detachments to fit them in?
lately I've been running a CAD with a Mark'O, a squad of Kroot and a squad of Strikers, the Y'Vahra, a Stormsurge, and a Riptide Wing and a Drone Net. It works really well.
Tetras are still regarded as one of our best ML platforms, but since we are in a formation heavy world now its rather difficult to bring them sometimes.
Y'vahra is still borderline bull**** powerful. Again though, excluded from formations.
Thats the main complaint i have about the formations in general. It makes those of us with FW models suffer a bit, since theyre usually difficult to bring now. Not much of an issue with larger games but in typical 1850pt games fielding any FW models + formations can be iffy.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tetras are still regarded as one of our best ML platforms, but since we are in a formation heavy world now its rather difficult to bring them sometimes.
Y'vahra is still borderline bull**** powerful. Again though, excluded from formations.
Thats the main complaint i have about the formations in general. It makes those of us with FW models suffer a bit, since theyre usually difficult to bring now. Not much of an issue with larger games but in typical 1850pt games fielding any FW models + formations can be iffy.
It is for this reason I wish they would make an allied detachment different. Call it like a recon detachment or something, and remove objective secured as a bonus. But then you can run 1 HQ, 1troop, other stuff! Without needing a full CAD.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tetras are still regarded as one of our best ML platforms, but since we are in a formation heavy world now its rather difficult to bring them sometimes.
Y'vahra is still borderline bull**** powerful. Again though, excluded from formations.
Thats the main complaint i have about the formations in general. It makes those of us with FW models suffer a bit, since theyre usually difficult to bring now. Not much of an issue with larger games but in typical 1850pt games fielding any FW models + formations can be iffy.
It is for this reason I wish they would make an allied detachment different. Call it like a recon detachment or something, and remove objective secured as a bonus. But then you can run 1 HQ, 1troop, other stuff! Without needing a full CAD.
You can take an allied detachment without a CAD... It's it's own detachment from which you cannot pick your warlord from, that is all.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tetras are still regarded as one of our best ML platforms, but since we are in a formation heavy world now its rather difficult to bring them sometimes.
Y'vahra is still borderline bull**** powerful. Again though, excluded from formations.
Thats the main complaint i have about the formations in general. It makes those of us with FW models suffer a bit, since theyre usually difficult to bring now. Not much of an issue with larger games but in typical 1850pt games fielding any FW models + formations can be iffy.
It is for this reason I wish they would make an allied detachment different. Call it like a recon detachment or something, and remove objective secured as a bonus. But then you can run 1 HQ, 1troop, other stuff! Without needing a full CAD.
You can take an allied detachment without a CAD... It's it's own detachment from which you cannot pick your warlord from, that is all.
Correct, but it also has the restriction that you cannot bring an allied detachment that includes models of the army of your primary detachment. So you can't bring a Tau Hunter Contingent and Allie a Tau force..
Unless I am wrong??!!!!! ***suddenly feeling hopeful***
Thats the way it was worded before and i assume is still worded as such. Would be rather surprised to have it be worded otherwise though that would be very useful.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tetras are still regarded as one of our best ML platforms, but since we are in a formation heavy world now its rather difficult to bring them sometimes.
Y'vahra is still borderline bull**** powerful. Again though, excluded from formations.
Thats the main complaint i have about the formations in general. It makes those of us with FW models suffer a bit, since theyre usually difficult to bring now. Not much of an issue with larger games but in typical 1850pt games fielding any FW models + formations can be iffy.
It is for this reason I wish they would make an allied detachment different. Call it like a recon detachment or something, and remove objective secured as a bonus. But then you can run 1 HQ, 1troop, other stuff! Without needing a full CAD.
You can take an allied detachment without a CAD... It's it's own detachment from which you cannot pick your warlord from, that is all.
Correct, but it also has the restriction that you cannot bring an allied detachment that includes models of the army of your primary detachment. So you can't bring a Tau Hunter Contingent and Allie a Tau force..
Unless I am wrong??!!!!! ***suddenly feeling hopeful***
You could ally in a Farsight Enclaves detachment. One ethereal and one suit would fulfill the requirement.
You could ally in a Farsight Enclaves detachment. One ethereal and one suit would fulfill the requirement.
I still don't think that would work, as an FSE detachment is still models from codex tau empire, which my primary detachment has. Is this correct Vineheart?
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example.. if I ran..
CAD Eldar *primary
I can also add both an Allied Tau detachment and Tau CAD, because neither are my primary detachment.
Allying in the FSE is hazy these days. The supp. itself directly says it can be allied with the Tau empire, but people have generally thrown that out the window when multiple CADs appeared.
TECHNICALLY since the FSE isnt nullified, you can still ally them in. They can take any FW models Tau Empire can because it says they use the same units, with the only exception being Bonding Knife requirement and troop Crisis suits. The FAQ still only alters the scenario stuff, the talisman for 7th psychic phase, and a typo.
Be ready to get a ton of flak if you do that though. Imperials cant do that so it cant be legal, right?
Space Marines have a clause that lets them specifically take an Allied Detachment of Marines, despite being from the same Faction on the Allies Matrix. The wording is s different for Tau, they can ally with other Tau Faction formations and detachments as Battle Brothers using the Allies Matrix, but the restriction preventing the use of an Allied Detachment is still there.
Though the only problem with allying in FSE is you are mandated a squad of 3 crisis suits.
Normally not a problem, but considering the vast majority of our formations we use (OSC exception) have crisis units as well....thats potentially a lot of crisis suits. Im already fielding more crisis suits than i usually like doing lol.
The only problem is that it's not legal due to allied detachment cant be same faction as your primary. new FSE does not require a 3 suit team any more, a single suit is enough.
And you have TOO MUCH crisis suits in your formation? I struggle to find how to put more in my formations, without freaking riptides...
And yes it IS legal, since FSE is still being sold thus still a valid book and it says it CAN be allied in to Tau Empire as battle brothers, and no FAQ/Eratta has changed that yet. Codex/Supp > BRB as to who wins the rules arguement. Supp says its legal, BRB says it isnt, Supp wins.
Mont'Ka is not an update for FSE, its just formations involving it.
And yes it IS legal, since FSE is still being sold thus still a valid book and it says it CAN be allied in to Tau Empire as battle brothers, and no FAQ/Eratta has changed that yet. Codex/Supp > BRB as to who wins the rules arguement. Supp says its legal, BRB says it isnt, Supp wins.
Mont'Ka is not an update for FSE, its just formations involving it.
as long as you don't try to mix & match, I don't see too many people saying boo. I have a related question: what about dual CAD from FSE & Mont'ka?
Grizzyzz wrote: It's not that they are battle brothers or not.. its thus you can't bring an allied detach ment of models from the same army as the primary..
Exactly. Being allowed to ally does not waive the restrictions of an Allied Detachment.
The argument isn't that the Codex/Supplement rule doesn't take precedence over the rule from the BRB - it's that the rule was made redundant by the changes regarding allies between 6th and 7th edition. The 7th edition basic rules already allow a Farsight Enclaves detachment and a Tau Empire detachment to be taken together as Battle Brothers, which is what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rules allow. The claim is that because the rule doesn't specifically state "they may take an Allied Detachment" (instead stating they "may ally together"), the rule doesn't allow you to take an Allied Detachment due to the "new" restriction that an Allied Detachment must from a different faction than your Primary Detachment. This interpretation seems a little strange to me because the requirement that an Allied Detachment must be taken from a different faction than the Primary Detachment did exist in 6th edition, and the ability to take an Allied Detachment is specifically what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rule allowed you to do in 6th edition. Conflict between RAW and RAI, I guess.
Peregrim wrote: The argument isn't that the Codex/Supplement rule doesn't take precedence over the rule from the BRB - it's that the rule was made redundant by the changes regarding allies between 6th and 7th edition. The 7th edition basic rules already allow a Farsight Enclaves detachment and a Tau Empire detachment to be taken together as Battle Brothers, which is what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rules allow. The claim is that because the rule doesn't specifically state "they may take an Allied Detachment" (instead stating they "may ally together"), the rule doesn't allow you to take an Allied Detachment due to the "new" restriction that an Allied Detachment must from a different faction than your Primary Detachment. This interpretation seems a little strange to me because the requirement that an Allied Detachment must be taken from a different faction than the Primary Detachment did exist in 6th edition, and the ability to take an Allied Detachment is specifically what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rule allowed you to do in 6th edition. Conflict between RAW and RAI, I guess.
Should note as well, it specifically says in the Space marines codex "chapters may be taking as allied detachments". It is because it is specifically allowed in other codex's that when extended to FSE we cannot do this. Iyanden faced the same situation with Eldar... atleast until they were faded out =(
I need to look at my FSE book again, but I thought it only mentioned "FSE and Tau are battle brothers", which is different from saying they can be taken as an allied detachment. Battle brothers means you can share marker lights, ethereal powers, other buffs from warlord, etc.
"Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers." The question is whether "may ally together" is general permission to take detachments from both (which is already permitted by the basic rules) or if it is specific permission to take an Allied Detachment. As you note, Codex: Space Marines (which was released after the change to 7th edition) specifically refers to Allied Detachments - so there's no debate there. But I'd be inclined to say that the Farsight Enclaves supplement allows the same because that's specifically what it granted permission to do in 6th edition (the different wording is simply due to the edition change). Of course, my ruling infers how "may ally together" should be interpreted based on RAI (due to how the rule worked when it was written) - it's not strictly based on RAW (so it might be more of a HIWPI than a rules interpretation).
Thankfully this particular issue is becoming less of a problem due to the multitude of formations and the new lower troop taxes. So if your group/club doesn't allow Allied Detachments from the same Faction as the Primary, you hopefully can pay the lessened tax on a CAD or use a formation that achieves the same result. I tend to not look at Tau troops as a tax in the first place, as they are almost always useful and underrated.
Plainshow wrote: Thankfully this particular issue is becoming less of a problem due to the multitude of formations and the new lower troop taxes. So if your group/club doesn't allow Allied Detachments from the same Faction as the Primary, you hopefully can pay the lessened tax on a CAD or use a formation that achieves the same result. I tend to not look at Tau troops as a tax in the first place, as they are almost always useful and underrated.
Yeah exactly! Doesn't really even matter as much anymore.
Stealth Suits were never particularly bad, they just didn't do anything the Tau didn't have in other forms, it's the same as the Razorshark Flier, they're fine models, they just aren't contributing anything special that other models don't already provide in large numbers.
That being said, when I did my quick analysis of the Razorshark formation I left out that it's only slightly overcosted in the current meta, but it would be significantly better if fliers become popular as it shoots other fliers normally. Yes, it gets a lot of advantages against Jetbikes and Skimmers, but it gets those and more against fliers, while also being on par with Ghostkeels to some extent.
Razershark is ok for its points. There are worse flyers but as you said it provides nothing tau don't already have. In the formation they get free markers to fire their seekers and just enough bonuses they need to handle themselves. I love this formation.
Don't underestimate their turret weapons. You can kite the board and still hit nearly anything you want!
I mean really the Tau Codex doesn't have any truly bad units, outside from the Vespids and maybe some of the Kroot special stuff like Krootox, it's just that it has a lot of redundant units that do what other parts of the army do better.
Again, Shielded Missile Drones aren't exactly bad on a Riptide, they just cost so much that you can buy a full Crisis Suit with whatever weapons you want for the price of two, but they do have better toughness and benefit from the formation, while also having a Riptide tank. Though they also have a worse save and can cause the Riptide some issues in turn.
The Stealth Suits aren't bad, they just don't have any weapon options and provide fire power that the basic troops can do better, while also depending on cover stuff. That being said, if you don't have troops thanks to formations and the like they get a lot better, and the formation does give them a lot of benefit, while also making the Ghostkeel better, which is big.
The Razorshark is also just ok normally, but the formation again pushes it up a lot, and if flying units are powerful (not just jet bikes and skimmers) the formation becomes exceptionally strong, though as it stands the amount of fire power it brings is just short of other options.
So yea, we just suffer from redundancy more than anything else :/.
Yeh that's what I love about them the most the burst cannon and infiltrate, I wouldn't mind if they had more options but 1 fusion per 3 feels weird when to me the unit feels like a nice cheap infantry harassment team. For CAD I'd rather they be in fast attack over elites that way it's easier to fit them in and they feel more like they belong there with the pathfinders over the elites anyway.
That formation sold me completely on using ghostkeels in the end, I decided to use them as anti air fire and that let me fit in some HRR broadsides in a way I was happy with.
Wasn't sure on putting that much into the beacons myself cause I figured the bubble around the stealth suits would be a bit small since I'm only running 1 OSC. Maybe I should look into it.
Another option to look into if you're taking a Dawn Blade Contingent is Recon Drones with the Pathfinder teams from a Ranged Support Cadre (which gives them Infiltrate). Pathfinders are a bit more economical than Stealth teams at Deepstrike herding (you can field 3 minimum size Pathfinder teams w/ Recon Drone for the same cost as 2 minimum size Stealth teams w/ Homing Becon), and they're comparably survivable (Stealth team has better saves, Pathfinder team has more wounds). Ranged Support Cadre requires you to take a lot of Broadsides (which you're already taking in the Retaliation Cadre), however.
Well, technically Broadsides are one of our most powerful if not the most powerful bang for our point in the dex. Very little isnt afraid of them. Problem is $$$ lol.
I had a friend long ago ask me why i run Hammerheads or Skyrays at all when Broadsides are infinitely better for ~100pts more. I could easily field 3 squads of them and still have plenty of an army left. Then i mentioned thats 450USD and he shutup instantly lol
Yeh they're $75 each here, I like them but I'm not going to horde them.
What about some of the older xv8 loadouts like the plasma rifle and missile pod ones for the retaliation cadre? I kind of felt like dual plasma or dual missile is better but I was kind of leaning to the balance of it since I'm using HRR broadsides instead of missile and still expect to regularly see marines.
Peregrim wrote: 1x Broadside in each Ranged Support Cadre unit plus 3x in the Retaliation Cadre (for a total of 6) isn't too bad. You know... only $300 (US).
$450 AUD
I actually thought it was more broadsides than that tbh.
Beacon on three Stealth suits give a pretty huge footprint for Deep Striking Broadsides and Riptides, two units you don't want scattering. And with the ability to infiltrate, you can place those Sides and Tides exactly where you want them.
Remember, the goal is to reduce your randomness while increasing your opponent's randomness, hence Markerlights and high rate of fire coupled to turn 2 automatic DS eithout scatter.
Originally I was thinking more of durability for that first turn, but really 6 man barebones stealth teams are probably a bit inefficient given I built that part of the list when I only had 1 ghostkeel in there before revising it and making it two. I'm up to that delicate part of list building where I have to balance out things together but without wrecking another part.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an idea I could remove the 8 marker drones from my list, currently I have 2 each on my xv8 teams which are running two with plasma and missile one of those with a DC and the third had fusion and missile with a target lock. The last 2 drones are on my broadsides with a DC. It seemed like a good idea to me to spread them and somewhat use them as ablative wounds as well... but the more I think on it the less good that actually sounds.
Least I've brought it down from the original 16 marker drones I had.
What I'm thinking of changing the stealth teams to are just 3 man, marker and target with homing and DC on the leader with 2 drones and 2 stock stealths to basically just act as ablative wounds.
n0t_u wrote: Yeh that's what I love about them the most the burst cannon and infiltrate, I wouldn't mind if they had more options but 1 fusion per 3 feels weird when to me the unit feels like a nice cheap infantry harassment team. For CAD I'd rather they be in fast attack over elites that way it's easier to fit them in and they feel more like they belong there with the pathfinders over the elites anyway.
That formation sold me completely on using ghostkeels in the end, I decided to use them as anti air fire and that let me fit in some HRR broadsides in a way I was happy with.
Honestly, I was hoping they'd move Stealth Suits and Vespids to troop choices, both are a tad pricy for their base, but as troops could see more general play. The Fusion is also wonky, and makes them feel more like a troop choice with the 1 per 3 thing. Maybe it should be a CiB option instead since it would make more sense with the burst cannons.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Beacon on three Stealth suits give a pretty huge footprint for Deep Striking Broadsides and Riptides, two units you don't want scattering. And with the ability to infiltrate, you can place those Sides and Tides exactly where you want them.
Remember, the goal is to reduce your randomness while increasing your opponent's randomness, hence Markerlights and high rate of fire coupled to turn 2 automatic DS eithout scatter.
SJ
Exactly what I do. Works like a charm.
Another variant is when I use the counterstrike cadre. Give the pathfinders a recon drone, and sprint somewhere on the field. Generally, my opponents have ignored them because they are no threat in a fish, and then turn 2 comes and they regret their decisions.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Beacon on three Stealth suits give a pretty huge footprint for Deep Striking Broadsides and Riptides, two units you don't want scattering. And with the ability to infiltrate, you can place those Sides and Tides exactly where you want them.
Remember, the goal is to reduce your randomness while increasing your opponent's randomness, hence Markerlights and high rate of fire coupled to turn 2 automatic DS eithout scatter.
SJ
Exactly what I do. Works like a charm.
Another variant is when I use the counterstrike cadre. Give the pathfinders a recon drone, and sprint somewhere on the field. Generally, my opponents have ignored them because they are no threat in a fish, and then turn 2 comes and they regret their decisions.
See, as a GK player, Pathfinders are a priority 1 target to be removed turn 1 with Incinerators and massed Bolter fire due to their high saves and Markerlights. Stealth are a lower tier target due to low cover and armor saves.
Let's be honest, Pathfinders are actually rather bad, they're now worse than Drones by a long stretch, they have a confused role with carrying the best support weapon in the army but also having the most special weapon and drone options, and they just have a horrible stigma attached to them.
Stealthsuits on the other hand are considered bad or mediocre by most, so they're much more likely to be ignored. Even against good players they'll usually not focus them as heavily as the Ghostkeel for obvious reason, while Pathfinders have to die in the eyes of good or bad players.
Tinkrr wrote: Let's be honest, Pathfinders are actually rather bad, they're now worse than Drones by a long stretch, they have a confused role with carrying the best support weapon in the army but also having the most special weapon and drone options, and they just have a horrible stigma attached to them.
Stealthsuits on the other hand are considered bad or mediocre by most, so they're much more likely to be ignored. Even against good players they'll usually not focus them as heavily as the Ghostkeel for obvious reason, while Pathfinders have to die in the eyes of good or bad players.
Thats why I dont use Pathfinders for Markerlights. I use them to kill. Outflanking Pathfinders for the win
Tinkrr wrote: Let's be honest, Pathfinders are actually rather bad, they're now worse than Drones by a long stretch, they have a confused role with carrying the best support weapon in the army but also having the most special weapon and drone options, and they just have a horrible stigma attached to them.
Stealthsuits on the other hand are considered bad or mediocre by most, so they're much more likely to be ignored. Even against good players they'll usually not focus them as heavily as the Ghostkeel for obvious reason, while Pathfinders have to die in the eyes of good or bad players.
Thats why I dont use Pathfinders for Markerlights. I use them to kill. Outflanking Pathfinders for the win
I've found Pathfinders in a Hunter Contingent aren't *terrible* seeing as if they combine fire they are all BS4 when marking the same target, but they simply aren't as efficient as Marker Drones - and that is especially the case with the Drone Net. The main difference is that your Markerlights can actually survive more than a few turns and keep your firepower at maximum effectiveness even if the quantity decreases over a game.
Of course, against shunting Grey Knights it doesn't matter if it is Pathfinders or Drones, both of them are going to get roasted. At least the Drones have a chance of hiding I guess.
Caederes wrote: I've found Pathfinders in a Hunter Contingent aren't *terrible* seeing as if they combine fire they are all BS4 when marking the same target, but they simply aren't as efficient as Marker Drones - and that is especially the case with the Drone Net. The main difference is that your Markerlights can actually survive more than a few turns and keep your firepower at maximum effectiveness even if the quantity decreases over a game.
Of course, against shunting Grey Knights it doesn't matter if it is Pathfinders or Drones, both of them are going to get roasted. At least the Drones have a chance of hiding I guess.
Well I dont think anyone can disagree that Pathfinders shouldnt be your Markerlight caddies of choice.
Pathfinders are great Rail rifle caddies though and they can do damage. I greatly enjoy using them for that.
Outflanking a 4-man unit of Pathfinders with 3 rail rifles could be hilarious against terminators or light vehicles. I plan to run such a unit sometime and see how it does.
ZergSmasher wrote: Outflanking a 4-man unit of Pathfinders with 3 rail rifles could be hilarious against terminators or light vehicles. I plan to run such a unit sometime and see how it does.
The problem with Railfinders is that you're still paying the Markerlight tax on Catherine base model, they're still super squishy, and their Rail Rifles aren't any cheaper than other special weapon choices.
Sure you could get some value by using them as an alpha strike while going first, but even then they'll just get blasted off by one pie plate or something turn one. You can also say that's diverting fire, but it's minimal firepower to wipe out 100pts of models if you're running the base amount of Pathfinders with three Rifles.
Caederes wrote: I've found Pathfinders in a Hunter Contingent aren't *terrible* seeing as if they combine fire they are all BS4 when marking the same target, but they simply aren't as efficient as Marker Drones - and that is especially the case with the Drone Net. The main difference is that your Markerlights can actually survive more than a few turns and keep your firepower at maximum effectiveness even if the quantity decreases over a game.
Of course, against shunting Grey Knights it doesn't matter if it is Pathfinders or Drones, both of them are going to get roasted. At least the Drones have a chance of hiding I guess.
Not as efficent as drones?
Mark per point pathfinders are the best source, with tetras being a close second. drones are FAR behind. with the network-they are still behind, featuring 28 PPM (points per mark) compared to pathfinder 22 (tetra 23.333). drones/tetras are more mobile and hardier, but mark worse. (tetra marking specially drops when looking into anti-air and anti-assault where they can't supporting fire, in regular shooting they are the best markers in my eyes.)
The humble pathfinder marker platform faces a lot of competition lately, but from pure mark-per-point stance, he still reign supreme.
And if you look at drone value in formations, its only fair to do the same for pathfinders,and in some formations, they become an outright disgusting unit.
Infiltration cadre? yea, free seeker strikes. and I dare you to kill my pathfinders-my entire army will come from reserves.
Ranged support cadre? let me just infiltrate into that nice ruin over there, and be shrouded, and DOUBLE my marker output as far as my broadsides cares so even if you cut my numbers, I still mark like hell. and I dare you to charge them with cross-board broadside supporting fire.
BoomWolf wrote: Ranged support cadre? let me just infiltrate into that nice ruin over there, and be shrouded, and DOUBLE my marker output as far as my broadsides cares so even if you cut my numbers, I still mark like hell. and I dare you to charge them with cross-board broadside supporting fire.
As someone who always leaned hard on Teteas for a second quality source of Marker support (after the Commander), I have been looking to find a way to increase the marker output from Dawn Blade Contingent without taking a second Commander. The Drone Net is great in the Dawn Blade, but still very squishy. The RSC looks good to spam Pathfinders cheaper. I've been running the Ghostkeel Wing, so 2+ cover almost all the time with intervening Ghosts seems slightly more durable. Plus MSU Broadsides seem to lend themselves to more board coverage (particularly on interceptor).
How have others experiences been with the Ranged Support Cadre?
Has anyone run RSC with a Ghost Wing?
The RSC pathfinders get a rather reliable 2++ on their own, the wing is not much required there.
And I'd rather not MSU it too much, you have 3 teams of each pathfinders and broadsides, and each finder team can rather reliably set up a broadside team even with minimal members-but I find that big broadside teams makes more of the marks. ignore cover isn't always relevant, and the easy BS5 access is just juicy when used by multiple broadsides at once (maybe even missile drones on top of it, easy marks are easy after all)
Caederes wrote: I've found Pathfinders in a Hunter Contingent aren't *terrible* seeing as if they combine fire they are all BS4 when marking the same target, but they simply aren't as efficient as Marker Drones - and that is especially the case with the Drone Net. The main difference is that your Markerlights can actually survive more than a few turns and keep your firepower at maximum effectiveness even if the quantity decreases over a game.
Of course, against shunting Grey Knights it doesn't matter if it is Pathfinders or Drones, both of them are going to get roasted. At least the Drones have a chance of hiding I guess.
Not as efficent as drones?
Mark per point pathfinders are the best source, with tetras being a close second. drones are FAR behind. with the network-they are still behind, featuring 28 PPM (points per mark) compared to pathfinder 22 (tetra 23.333). drones/tetras are more mobile and hardier, but mark worse. (tetra marking specially drops when looking into anti-air and anti-assault where they can't supporting fire, in regular shooting they are the best markers in my eyes.)
The humble pathfinder marker platform faces a lot of competition lately, but from pure mark-per-point stance, he still reign supreme.
And if you look at drone value in formations, its only fair to do the same for pathfinders,and in some formations, they become an outright disgusting unit.
Infiltration cadre? yea, free seeker strikes. and I dare you to kill my pathfinders-my entire army will come from reserves.
Ranged support cadre? let me just infiltrate into that nice ruin over there, and be shrouded, and DOUBLE my marker output as far as my broadsides cares so even if you cut my numbers, I still mark like hell. and I dare you to charge them with cross-board broadside supporting fire.
Drones can JSJ. That increases their survivability drastically (and T4, and 4+ save). Doesn't matter if pathfinders gave you 10 PPM if they die immediately.
Using Pinpoint to boost BS to 5, Sniper Drone Teams actually have better wounds/points efficiency than Pathfinders against certain targets (even those which Snipers aren't particularly efficient against, like Space Marines or Fire Warriors). Sniper Drone Teams also benefit from less variance in landing hits; three Firesight Marksmen are more likely to land at least 2 marker hits (93%) than 6 Pathfinders (89%), although 6 Pathfinders will land more marker hits on average.
This is something which a lot of people overlook when considering the marker efficiency of the Sniper Teams; often I see markerlight efficiency evaluated as points per ML hit, but cumulative points per wound is more informative given the goal of dealing wounds. That said, while Sniper Drones Teams are good secondary Markerlight sources, they aren't a good primary source due to their lack of versatility (better efficiency only within 24" range against certain targets without significant cover saves).
Tinkrr wrote: The problem with Railfinders is that you're still paying the Markerlight tax on Catherine base model, they're still super squishy, and their Rail Rifles aren't any cheaper than other special weapon choices.
Sure you could get some value by using them as an alpha strike while going first, but even then they'll just get blasted off by one pie plate or something turn one. You can also say that's diverting fire, but it's minimal firepower to wipe out 100pts of models if you're running the base amount of Pathfinders with three Rifles.
The tax is what gets you outflank. There is no REAL tax on them other than that.
And no I wouldnt alphs strike them. They are for killing later. Its ben an effective component for me.
Ok guys, our codex has been out for a couple of months now. I want to know if any of you have had success and local tournaments. What was your ranking at these events and what list did you take? Let's see how our new toys are stacking up against the giants in the tournament scene.
DirtyDeeds wrote: Ok guys, our codex has been out for a couple of months now. I want to know if any of you have had success and local tournaments. What was your ranking at these events and what list did you take? Let's see how our new toys are stacking up against the giants in the tournament scene.
I took first in a five game tournament using Pathfinders as my outflanking assassins. I did have to fight a Scatter bike and WraithKnight list in the 4th game. I was able to negate his cover and annihilate two Five man bike squads on the turn the Pathfinders arrived. The Devilfish provided me cover from the return fire which i think he assumed would end me. But 15 shots at each isn't nearly enough, no matter the strength when you're in cover to end them and their drones. He then tried to kill one of the units with a Warp Spider unit and they did get through most of the Pathfinders in the unit.... But not the Rail Rifles! I then killed two more bike units. So in all they killed 20 bikes on their own and didn't die (although one unit ended the game with just one Rail rifle hanging around).
their last act of heroism was to put the final wound on the rampaging Wraith Knight that went about wrecking my stuff before that point. The Wraithknight blazed across the board and killed my Riptide, my commander, and his Markerdrones and finished off my Sniper Drones as its last act before dying. But by then the damage was done. He had nothing to take objectives with at that point as I had assassinated all such threats. Warp Spiders were dead, Wraith Knight dead, 20 bikes dead... a lot of dead stuff.
Interesting side note: DarkStriders ability to drop a models toughness was what allowed me to finish the Wraithknight. Kinda cool.
DirtyDeeds wrote: Ok guys, our codex has been out for a couple of months now. I want to know if any of you have had success and local tournaments. What was your ranking at these events and what list did you take? Let's see how our new toys are stacking up against the giants in the tournament scene.
I took first in a five game tournament using Pathfinders as my outflanking assassins. I did have to fight a Scatter bike and WraithKnight list in the 4th game. I was able to negate his cover and annihilate two Five man bike squads on the turn the Pathfinders arrived. The Devilfish provided me cover from the return fire which i think he assumed would end me. But 15 shots at each isn't nearly enough, no matter the strength when you're in cover to end them and their drones. He then tried to kill one of the units with a Warp Spider unit and they did get through most of the Pathfinders in the unit.... But not the Rail Rifles! I then killed two more bike units. So in all they killed 20 bikes on their own and didn't die (although one unit ended the game with just one Rail rifle hanging around).
their last act of heroism was to put the final wound on the rampaging Wraith Knight that went about wrecking my stuff before that point. The Wraithknight blazed across the board and killed my Riptide, my commander, and his Markerdrones and finished off my Sniper Drones as its last act before dying. But by then the damage was done. He had nothing to take objectives with at that point as I had assassinated all such threats. Warp Spiders were dead, Wraith Knight dead, 20 bikes dead... a lot of dead stuff.
Interesting side note: DarkStriders ability to drop a models toughness was what allowed me to finish the Wraithknight. Kinda cool.
Ok please stop with your weird obsession with special weapon pathfinders. You already went over this way to much earlier and the consensus was you were the single only person to find them remotely competitive. 26 points for a T3 model with a 5+ save is not and will never be competative.
DirtyDeeds wrote: Ok guys, our codex has been out for a couple of months now. I want to know if any of you have had success and local tournaments. What was your ranking at these events and what list did you take? Let's see how our new toys are stacking up against the giants in the tournament scene.
I took first in a five game tournament using Pathfinders as my outflanking assassins. I did have to fight a Scatter bike and WraithKnight list in the 4th game. I was able to negate his cover and annihilate two Five man bike squads on the turn the Pathfinders arrived. The Devilfish provided me cover from the return fire which i think he assumed would end me. But 15 shots at each isn't nearly enough, no matter the strength when you're in cover to end them and their drones. He then tried to kill one of the units with a Warp Spider unit and they did get through most of the Pathfinders in the unit.... But not the Rail Rifles! I then killed two more bike units. So in all they killed 20 bikes on their own and didn't die (although one unit ended the game with just one Rail rifle hanging around).
their last act of heroism was to put the final wound on the rampaging Wraith Knight that went about wrecking my stuff before that point. The Wraithknight blazed across the board and killed my Riptide, my commander, and his Markerdrones and finished off my Sniper Drones as its last act before dying. But by then the damage was done. He had nothing to take objectives with at that point as I had assassinated all such threats. Warp Spiders were dead, Wraith Knight dead, 20 bikes dead... a lot of dead stuff.
Interesting side note: DarkStriders ability to drop a models toughness was what allowed me to finish the Wraithknight. Kinda cool.
Ok please stop with your weird obsession with special weapon pathfinders. You already went over this way to much earlier and the consensus was you were the single only person to find them remotely competitive. 26 points for a T3 model with a 5+ save is not and will never be competative.
"OK please stop" your insistence on being wrong?
I'm pretty sure I just told you I won, recently. Which was in fact his question. Remember his question?
So I am pretty sure I don't care whether you THINK its competitive or not. What happened, in reality, is they killed 20 Bikes and finished the wounded Wraith Knight. I'm "pretty sure" that's getting it done against a competitive army.
You are free to suggest alternatives. You're not free to say it doesn't work. Correction: you're free to SAY anything you like. Good luck with that.
AP1 gives them an advantage against AV. Against AV10 without ML support, three of them have a 30% chance of rolling an Explodes! on the damage table (increases to 44% at BS5). But a single 2x Fusion Crisis within Melta range matches their likelihood of rolling an Explodes! result without support (30%) and beats it with support (46%) at a lower cost. Fusion is significantly more effective against higher AV. Against targets with good Armour Saves (where AP1 v. AP2 is irrelevant) they face similar competition from 2x Plasma suits.
The advantage of range (I compared 15" for the rail rifle v. 9" for fusion and 12" for plasma) shouldn't be discounted, I guess. Also there is value to versatility. However at a price point of two rail rifle Pathfinders to a Crisis suit, you're getting the same number of Wounds but the Crisis suit has better survivability and mobility. It's interesting how you use drones to add extra survivability to the Pathfinders - that can force your opponent to either over-commit to ensure that they are dead (which protects the rest of your army) or risk leaving the dangerous models alive. but then the pathfinder units become a massive points investment.
Deployment options maybe? Deep Strike lets you deploy pretty much anywhere on the table whereas Outflank requires you to come in from a board edge. For consistency in deploying from Reserves, Positional Relay is more accessible than Homing Beacon. Positional Relay offers the flexibility of both the unit on the table and the unit arriving from Reserves to be anywhere along the board edge (and can open up two board edges) whereas Homing Beacon must be near where you want to drop your suits.
I'm not convinced they are worth their points. If they were cheaper and you weren't limited to 3 to a squad or if they had a longer range, then I might consider running them.
DirtyDeeds wrote: Ok guys, our codex has been out for a couple of months now. I want to know if any of you have had success and local tournaments. What was your ranking at these events and what list did you take? Let's see how our new toys are stacking up against the giants in the tournament scene.
I took first in a five game tournament using Pathfinders as my outflanking assassins. I did have to fight a Scatter bike and WraithKnight list in the 4th game. I was able to negate his cover and annihilate two Five man bike squads on the turn the Pathfinders arrived. The Devilfish provided me cover from the return fire which i think he assumed would end me. But 15 shots at each isn't nearly enough, no matter the strength when you're in cover to end them and their drones. He then tried to kill one of the units with a Warp Spider unit and they did get through most of the Pathfinders in the unit.... But not the Rail Rifles! I then killed two more bike units. So in all they killed 20 bikes on their own and didn't die (although one unit ended the game with just one Rail rifle hanging around).
their last act of heroism was to put the final wound on the rampaging Wraith Knight that went about wrecking my stuff before that point. The Wraithknight blazed across the board and killed my Riptide, my commander, and his Markerdrones and finished off my Sniper Drones as its last act before dying. But by then the damage was done. He had nothing to take objectives with at that point as I had assassinated all such threats. Warp Spiders were dead, Wraith Knight dead, 20 bikes dead... a lot of dead stuff.
Interesting side note: DarkStriders ability to drop a models toughness was what allowed me to finish the Wraithknight. Kinda cool.
Ok please stop with your weird obsession with special weapon pathfinders. You already went over this way to much earlier and the consensus was you were the single only person to find them remotely competitive. 26 points for a T3 model with a 5+ save is not and will never be competative.
"OK please stop" your insistence on being wrong?
I'm pretty sure I just told you I won, recently. Which was in fact his question. Remember his question?
So I am pretty sure I don't care whether you THINK its competitive or not. What happened, in reality, is they killed 20 Bikes and finished the wounded Wraith Knight. I'm "pretty sure" that's getting it done against a competitive army.
You are free to suggest alternatives. You're not free to say it doesn't work. Correction: you're free to SAY anything you like. Good luck with that.
lol you can make up stories about you winning tournaments all you want. If you are telling me your squad of pathfinders killed 20 bikes and a wraith knight I call bull crap.
at T3 and a 5+ save, every single one will die in 1 turn of shooting from any half decent army
Mark per point pathfinders are the best source, ...
You're completely discounting the mobility of the drones, potential for drone controllers, the buff they give other drones in the army, and so much more.
Sure, Pathfinders are cheaper, but they're less likely to survive, they have significantly worse BS when they can't draw LoS without moving, they also don't give as much benefit to your army in other ways... I mean really Interceptor Markerlights completely change the dynamic of how good EWO systems are.
So on planet bowling ball, where there aren't any LoS possibilities then Pathfinders are cheaper, but if you add anything in like the better save, the better range thanks to mobility, the extra special rules, then the Drone Networks are so far ahead of Pathfinders it's not even funny.
Intercepting ML is insane. One of the main reasons i dont like EWO is im forced to fire my guns without marker support, which for me usually ends badly.
Markerlight rules doesnt specify Shooting Phase/Assault Phase, so it can totally work during the "Intercept Phase" if you wanna call it that.
Imagine being able to Intercept a D Missile from a Stormsurge at a Dreadnought Droppod's cargo (which is allowed to charge from reserves) or strip the cover off a Termie blob for Riptide/SS pi platey goodness.
Jink is nice since its a backup plan, even though its not a great one since snapshots, but you can always shoot at a flier if there is one next turn.
Really dont care about the other rules they get. Splitfire is a joke compared to Target Locks lol
I mean Split-Fire isn't that great, but it still gives you some options to not dedicate as much to get one extra Markerlight here or there. Jink is awkward, but remember, if you're trying to buff other drones, it's good to have and even if they do Jink, they simply go to the same hit rate as Pathfinders that have moved.
Now here's a weird question, why is it that the Mont'ka has these better drones with enhanced AI? Sure, it could be that they had more need, but has the Tau Empire itself been holding back its AI until it can make it more stable, and the Mont'ka is simply unleashing it a bit too much? I mean the AI in the Ghostkeel is basically Tau Waifus, so they clearly understand what the risks are of it.
Could be pressure. When the heats on you tend to make some unwise decisions and hope it doesnt backfire.
And yeah im not upset they have Jink by any means, i'll take it over wiping my drone unit any day. Just saying its not an all mighty, amazing buff since yaknow..snapfiring lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Intercepting ML is insane. One of the main reasons i dont like EWO is im forced to fire my guns without marker support, which for me usually ends badly.
Markerlight rules doesnt specify Shooting Phase/Assault Phase, so it can totally work during the "Intercept Phase" if you wanna call it that.
Imagine being able to Intercept a D Missile from a Stormsurge at a Dreadnought Droppod's cargo (which is allowed to charge from reserves) or strip the cover off a Termie blob for Riptide/SS pi platey goodness.
Jink is nice since its a backup plan, even though its not a great one since snapshots, but you can always shoot at a flier if there is one next turn.
Really dont care about the other rules they get. Splitfire is a joke compared to Target Locks lol
And for real fun don't forget you can go to ground at the same time as jinking for a 3+ cover save in the open!
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DirtyDeeds wrote: Let it be known that this is the first unit that can jink and go to ground at the same time.
Vineheart01 wrote: Could be pressure. When the heats on you tend to make some unwise decisions and hope it doesnt backfire.
And yeah im not upset they have Jink by any means, i'll take it over wiping my drone unit any day. Just saying its not an all mighty, amazing buff since yaknow..snapfiring lol
I don't think that's the case, Farsight has always been rather naive, even about his demon blade. I'd think of it as more of something the Ethereals are worried about but not exactly any other Tau that are more optimistic. It could just as easily be the FSE going "Wait, why is this restricted? Let's remove this lock and see what happens.".
I think Jink is pretty amazing, especially if only one drone is left in the squad after fire, it makes it that much easier to keep it alive to buff the other drones in the army. It honestly sounds mediocre, but it feels like one of those abilities that can be stupidly good since people probably don't want to derp around with 1-2 jinking drones.
Edit: Not to mention that selective targeting on a squad that is mostly out of LoS can make very good use of Jink.
The TE codex explains that Drones run in large groups are smarter due to their ability to network, yet GW forgets to add an actual Drone formation in the TE codex. Mon'ka corrects this oversight.
WELLLLLLlll.... technically the normal dex has a drone formation. One squad, no rules lol. Its listed under what counts as an Auxiliary for the Hunter Cont. formation.
Would be amazing if the Drone Net would replace that single unit formation.
Vineheart01 wrote: WELLLLLLlll.... technically the normal dex has a drone formation. One squad, no rules lol. Its listed under what counts as an Auxiliary for the Hunter Cont. formation.
Would be amazing if the Drone Net would replace that single unit formation.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The TE codex explains that Drones run in large groups are smarter due to their ability to network, yet GW forgets to add an actual Drone formation in the TE codex. Mon'ka corrects this oversight.
SJ
That explains the collective targeting data buff, which is common in any robotics field, or even calibration of non-robotic objects. Artificial measuring objects don't generally have a sense of spacial awareness, you have to calibrate them to some extent at least, and the more angles the more accurate.
The Enhanced Tactical Response, now that's different.
Have you people even read my post about the pathfinders after the first five words?
I said clearly that the pathfinder win is MARK PER POINT. not durability, not suitability. MARK PER POINT.
Sometime, that counts.
Also, you keep taking the drones in formation, and the pathfinders not in formation. the pathfinders have some nasty formations (as I noted) of their own, and even with the drone network the non-formation pathfinders MARK better. they don't survive as much, they don't move well, but they MARK better.
And thats a considiration when making lists.
And I'm not defending my own here or anything, I don't employ pathfinders, I employ tetras in my CADs and now drone networks too. I personally value the mobility and durability over the raw mark power. (also, I don't run broadsides often, and don't own that many so RSC is out for me and I have no piranha for the IC)
But I appriciate the fact the they are still up there in the list of best marker units, and competing for the top spot, if only for being so cheap for how many marks they put down, and that unlike any other marker sources-they got backup weapons in case you don't need a mark right now and rather shoot something. (or for self defense)
If you are telling me your squad of pathfinders killed 20 bikes and a wraith knight I call bull crap.
Do you now?
Well I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong. Logon to the ordofanaticus.com forum, or the quieter one here at warsound.com and ask about my Tau force. Tell them that you don't beleive for one minute that my Pathfinder army did jack squat.
I don't suppose that anyone has ever considered running shadowsun with sniper kroot? I rather enjoy the idea of the kroot konga line, and I was considering some entertaining ways to use them if my opponent actually plays smart rather than tricksy.
Vineheart01 wrote: Could be pressure. When the heats on you tend to make some unwise decisions and hope it doesnt backfire.
I don't think that's the case, Farsight has always been rather naive, even about his demon blade. I'd think of it as more of something the Ethereals are worried about but not exactly any other Tau that are more optimistic. It could just as easily be the FSE going "Wait, why is this restricted? Let's remove this lock and see what happens.".
Since the formations from Mont'ka can be fielded in any Tau army, I don't think the VX1-0 Drone Net is reflective of a difference in technology or AI between the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves. Instead, the different drone auxiliary formation choice between the Hunter Contingent and the Farsight Enclaves Dawn Blade Contingent illustrates different reliance on Drones.
Why would the Farsight Enclaves rely more on drones than the Tau Empire? Lacking the manpower of the Tau Empire and following the Tau'Va's teachings that no life is expendable, the Farsight Enclaves may prefer to use large drone networks where the Ethereals would instead employ Tau Fire Warriors in a war of attrition. This view is supported by the page from the Tau Codex on Farsight's rebellion; the Ethereal's willingness to sacrifice countless Tau lives in the name of the Greater Good is one of the reasons Commander Farsight chose self-imposed exile.
BoomWolf wrote: Have you people even read my post about the pathfinders after the first five words?
I said clearly that the pathfinder win is MARK PER POINT. not durability, not suitability. MARK PER POINT.
Sometime, that counts.
Also, you keep taking the drones in formation, and the pathfinders not in formation. the pathfinders have some nasty formations (as I noted) of their own, and even with the drone network the non-formation pathfinders MARK better. they don't survive as much, they don't move well, but they MARK better.
And thats a considiration when making lists.
And I'm not defending my own here or anything, I don't employ pathfinders, I employ tetras in my CADs and now drone networks too. I personally value the mobility and durability over the raw mark power. (also, I don't run broadsides often, and don't own that many so RSC is out for me and I have no piranha for the IC)
But I appriciate the fact the they are still up there in the list of best marker units, and competing for the top spot, if only for being so cheap for how many marks they put down, and that unlike any other marker sources-they got backup weapons in case you don't need a mark right now and rather shoot something. (or for self defense)
Yes, if all we consider are how many points you need for a Markerlight, then Pathfinders are slightly cheaper as they cost 11pts instead of 14pts, that is the only advantage.
Now what do you mean by "They mark better"? You said multiple times that they mark better, but what do you even mean by that? They have the same BS as networked drones, but no ability to move and shoot, so clearly the drones mark better.
As for formations, the Pathfinder Formations all require other things in addition to the Pathfinders, the drones do not, so when comparing the two alone you can use the drones in formation, but you can't use the Pathfinders in formation as then you'd have to include the other units, which would complicate things a bit much outside of direct list comparisons.
Honestly, Pathfinders aren't one of the best Marker sources, they're probably one of the worst, only second to taking Markers on squad sergeants. Tetras, Drones (especially in network, but with a Mark'O works too), and Skyrays are significantly better sources. I'd say the Remora and other formations are probably better too, but they're not as dedicated Marker sources as the previous three.
Are suicide fusion Crisis suits a thing? If so, what options do you take on them to make them do their job? I was thinking of taking one, putting 2x fusions, Shas'vre upgrade, and the PEN chip to give it tank hunter. Make absolutely sure that tank dies. That solo suit comes in at like close to 80 points, which is expensive for one dude, but considering many Marine players spend 125 points on a unit to do a similar job (5 tac marines in a drop pod with melta and combimelta), maybe not too bad.
Solo deepstriking suits are pretty common, either plasma or fusion. Plasma to counter termies and fusion for armor.
I wouldnt waste the PEN chip though. Two meltas usually kill any vehicle dead even without a couple marker supporting shots, and if it doesnt your dice hate you. Typically when my solo fusion bomb fails to kill his target is because i scattered like hell not because i missed/didnt roll 5+ lol.
Remember Tank Hunter doesnt reroll the pen table, which is what counts, it rerolls the 2D6 pen. Unless its a Land Raider or you scattered to a bad face, you need some BAD dice to not pen a vehicle on S8+2D6lol.
Usually i put a shield gen on him. Debating taking that off and just adding in AdvTargets for sniping potential, since usually i dont even get the shield (or i fail it anyway)
ZergSmasher wrote: Are suicide fusion Crisis suits a thing? If so, what options do you take on them to make them do their job? I was thinking of taking one, putting 2x fusions, Shas'vre upgrade, and the PEN chip to give it tank hunter. Make absolutely sure that tank dies. That solo suit comes in at like close to 80 points, which is expensive for one dude, but considering many Marine players spend 125 points on a unit to do a similar job (5 tac marines in a drop pod with melta and combimelta), maybe not too bad.
I run two in my Ret Cad, they're just 1x Fusion Blaster and 1x Twin Linked Fusion Blaster, if I need to really kill something I can always invest Marker Lights or use the Dawn Blade special rule.
For 58 points getting two meltas, one being twin linked, on that body isn't that bad. The Low Altitude Deployment also helps since it buffs them the turn they land and helps pick off the tank. If you're still worried you can deep strike both on the same target for a ton of melta at not that many points.
I've been playing around with Drone heavy Monats, either CiBs or Fusion, with two Gun Drones and a Target Lock. This is of course supported by a Drone-Net, so the Gun Drones are BS3 base before markers. Using one of the Drones as the DS marker nets a smaller footprint for scatter, and lets me place the Crisis closer to the target if the scatter drifts in the wrong direction. The TL lets the Drones dakka infantry while the Crisis busts vehicles or monsters. Been using this build on my three Crisis from the Ret Cadre, which is pretty flexible for the points.
If you are telling me your squad of pathfinders killed 20 bikes and a wraith knight I call bull crap.
Do you now?
Well I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong. Logon to the ordofanaticus.com forum, or the quieter one here at warsound.com and ask about my Tau force. Tell them that you don't beleive for one minute that my Pathfinder army did jack squat.
That's one of many foes who I have faced with them. Just happened to be feelin the camera that day.
So call "bull crap" if you want to but its real easy to follow my exploits.
To be fair that report (in Nov 2014) is the 6th Edition Eldar codex. No scatter bikes (and none present in your battle report anyway) and, Wraithknight which was significantly easier to kill and significantly less deadly - you could sniper it to death, it didn't have stomp or FNP. I routinely would one-round them with Sniper Drone teams also but that tactic no longer works. I'm surprised by how ineffective your opponent's shooting was - my experience with 3+ Waveserpents in 6th was much worse. Although your opponent did have a stupid amount of points invested in that useless 'death star'.
I guess it shows that if both players aren't running competitive lists then the game is more balanced and more average units can be realistically fielded.
If you are telling me your squad of pathfinders killed 20 bikes and a wraith knight I call bull crap.
Do you now?
Well I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong. Logon to the ordofanaticus.com forum, or the quieter one here at warsound.com and ask about my Tau force. Tell them that you don't beleive for one minute that my Pathfinder army did jack squat.
That's one of many foes who I have faced with them. Just happened to be feelin the camera that day.
So call "bull crap" if you want to but its real easy to follow my exploits.
To be fair that report (in Nov 2014) is the 6th Edition Eldar codex. No scatter bikes (and none present in your battle report anyway) and, Wraithknight which was significantly easier to kill and significantly less deadly - you could sniper it to death, it didn't have stomp or FNP. I routinely would one-round them with Sniper Drone teams also but that tactic no longer works. I'm surprised by how ineffective your opponent's shooting was - my experience with 3+ Waveserpents in 6th was much worse. Although your opponent did have a stupid amount of points invested in that useless 'death star'.
I guess it shows that if both players aren't running competitive lists then the game is more balanced and more average units can be realistically fielded.
This made me laugh a lot. I can't believe he posted his own damning evidence.
If you are telling me your squad of pathfinders killed 20 bikes and a wraith knight I call bull crap.
Do you now?
Well I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong. Logon to the ordofanaticus.com forum, or the quieter one here at warsound.com and ask about my Tau force. Tell them that you don't beleive for one minute that my Pathfinder army did jack squat.
That's one of many foes who I have faced with them. Just happened to be feelin the camera that day.
So call "bull crap" if you want to but its real easy to follow my exploits.
To be fair that report (in Nov 2014) is the 6th Edition Eldar codex. No scatter bikes (and none present in your battle report anyway) and, Wraithknight which was significantly easier to kill and significantly less deadly - you could sniper it to death, it didn't have stomp or FNP. I routinely would one-round them with Sniper Drone teams also but that tactic no longer works. I'm surprised by how ineffective your opponent's shooting was - my experience with 3+ Waveserpents in 6th was much worse. Although your opponent did have a stupid amount of points invested in that useless 'death star'.
I guess it shows that if both players aren't running competitive lists then the game is more balanced and more average units can be realistically fielded.
I wasn't talking about that. Lol. Nothing I directed you to included that other than as an example. My point was, and is, that pathfinders are effective and that batrep you're referring to (for some reason) had nothing to do with my recent victories, which I was referring to.
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ZergSmasher wrote: Are suicide fusion Crisis suits a thing? If so, what options do you take on them to make them do their job? I was thinking of taking one, putting 2x fusions, Shas'vre upgrade, and the PEN chip to give it tank hunter. Make absolutely sure that tank dies. That solo suit comes in at like close to 80 points, which is expensive for one dude, but considering many Marine players spend 125 points on a unit to do a similar job (5 tac marines in a drop pod with melta and combimelta), maybe not too bad.
Monat suits have always been popular in some circles because they can take an objective and cost near nothiing, are dangerous enough to kill something and too dangerous to leave unattended forever (if the enemy has armor) so they expend too many points killing its inexpensive cost.
Some people do not like them becaue in KP missions they feel it exposes them to a loss but when you consider that they can be kept off the board somewhat until the enemy capacity to kill them has diminished, the value of it rises. So its a risk reward thing you have to gauge for yourself, but there are pros and cons for it. Perhaps not as hearty as one would prefer in such a gambit but certainly can be an embarrassingly effective return on investment.
No. the link was just an example. it is an older battle report. but it illustrated how to use them. But that is one of a hundred games they've been in so focusing on IT and not on the usage is a mistake.
Ah alright, got more like that with the current Eldar? I'm curious of what changes had to happen to tackle it as a GMC. I've never really even looked at pathfinders tbh, I just like drones better but this sounds like a different role that they can't really do.
Yeah I am almost done re-painting some of my Tau and new Tau. But I am close and then I will do more. I have been playing a lot of Night Lords. Militarum Tempestus and Dark Eldar in the meantime (sprinkled in games with my Eldar air force as well)
Wilson wrote: anyone ran the supremacy suit? I'm figuring out a decent list at 1500 and have no idea what would work with it.
clues!
I do not own one nor have I played with or against it, but on paper this thing is a beast (and dare I say Titan level overpowered in normal gameplay). If you really want to play this beast at 1500 points, you won't make any friends. But I guess you could fill your list with mobile elements since you DON'T want thing thing locked in combat. I know it's a super heavy and won't die, but you need it to shoot every turn at that point level.
Wilson wrote: anyone ran the supremacy suit? I'm figuring out a decent list at 1500 and have no idea what would work with it.
clues!
I haven't played one yet, nor against one (my brother owns one, the only person a know with one in my local circle, and has yet to field it). However, if I were to field one at 1500 points, I'd take a FSE EWO Monat CAD and a Drone-Net, and play the Supremacy suit as the center point with the rest screening and/or popping drop melta/grav.
Run a Ta'unar in 1500pts? i'd be surprised if anyone would even attempt to play that. The Ta'unar is Titan level of op, its not AS powerful in apoc games but in nonapoc games its just unfair.
Intending to get one with my tax returns this year, but i suspect to not use it very often since i dont bring supers below 2k
Vineheart01 wrote: Run a Ta'unar in 1500pts? i'd be surprised if anyone would even attempt to play that. The Ta'unar is Titan level of op, its not AS powerful in apoc games but in nonapoc games its just unfair.
Intending to get one with my tax returns this year, but i suspect to not use it very often since i dont bring supers below 2k
It's for UKGT final. So, it's there for competition.
AP1 gives them an advantage against AV. Against AV10 without ML support, three of them have a 30% chance of rolling an Explodes! on the damage table (increases to 44% at BS5). But a single 2x Fusion Crisis within Melta range matches their likelihood of rolling an Explodes! result without support (30%) and beats it with support (46%) at a lower cost. Fusion is significantly more effective against higher AV. Against targets with good Armour Saves (where AP1 v. AP2 is irrelevant) they face similar competition from 2x Plasma suits.
The advantage of range (I compared 15" for the rail rifle v. 9" for fusion and 12" for plasma) shouldn't be discounted, I guess. Also there is value to versatility. However at a price point of two rail rifle Pathfinders to a Crisis suit, you're getting the same number of Wounds but the Crisis suit has better survivability and mobility. It's interesting how you use drones to add extra survivability to the Pathfinders - that can force your opponent to either over-commit to ensure that they are dead (which protects the rest of your army) or risk leaving the dangerous models alive. but then the pathfinder units become a massive points investment.
Deployment options maybe? Deep Strike lets you deploy pretty much anywhere on the table whereas Outflank requires you to come in from a board edge. For consistency in deploying from Reserves, Positional Relay is more accessible than Homing Beacon. Positional Relay offers the flexibility of both the unit on the table and the unit arriving from Reserves to be anywhere along the board edge (and can open up two board edges) whereas Homing Beacon must be near where you want to drop your suits.
I'm not convinced they are worth their points. If they were cheaper and you weren't limited to 3 to a squad or if they had a longer range, then I might consider running them.
You kind of answered your own question:
Better Range
Haywire Grenades. Crisis team can't carry them. Most reliable way to get a hull point I know of.
Has deployment options Crisis teams don't have.
Versatile enough to take out any TYPE of target, at all.
Enemies are conditioned to play a certain way. Their armies inform this even more. Terrain certainly does. A flexible force that can essentially morph its strategy to fit those things is invaluable. That they COULD fire Markerlights if pressed into service for that is just gravy but I don't think I'd use them as Markerlight caddies, as I've mentioned.
I like the pirhana for flooding the board with denial drones and additional units. They also provide fast scoring units. Riptides babysit the supremecy nicely with interceptor.
I'm concious that my market light support is limited so would probably deepstrike the commander and drones- maybe even let them walk on.
Kroot outflank.
My concern is that the main damage output comes from the riptide & supremecy and there is for sure going to be some eldar games. ( total of 6 games)
What other formations would fit 1500 and compliment the supremecy?
Considering it cant benefit from formation perks, Drone Net is about all i can think of. Technically the Ghost Wing can give it stealth anyway, but does it even need stealth? lol
Drone Net for marker support basically. Would couple with the piranha drone factory too for +1BS. Ta'unar doesnt need AS much marker support as the SS since it doesnt devour marks for a D missile and it has good BS on its own, but ignores cover is still a wonderful thing.
Unless 7th changed how Denial unit works, drones can still deny. Tau codex only says units composed entirely of drones are non-scoring units. Says nothing about non-denial.
I'd say the fun side of tournaments is both the social aspect and the games, as the games tend to feel closer and more alive. There's just something about playing weaker units that leaves the game feeling sluggish and clunky, which I don't really get at tournament play.
It's also something I noticed in bat reps, despite the Frontline gaming ones being longer they tend to hold my attention more than the MiniWargaming ones which generally have better editing and a faster pace. Not to say I dislike them, just I tend to tune out after a while, and sometimes the narrative stuff is fun, but too often it's a little too one sided which is a bummer.
Tinkrr wrote: I'd say the fun side of tournaments is both the social aspect and the games, as the games tend to feel closer and more alive. There's just something about playing weaker units that leaves the game feeling sluggish and clunky, which I don't really get at tournament play.
It's also something I noticed in bat reps, despite the Frontline gaming ones being longer they tend to hold my attention more than the MiniWargaming ones which generally have better editing and a faster pace. Not to say I dislike them, just I tend to tune out after a while, and sometimes the narrative stuff is fun, but too often it's a little too one sided which is a bummer.
I'll be playing on their Stream again next week with my Tau, you guys should check it out.
Peregrim wrote: If it's not a scoring unit, then it cannot prevent an enemy scoring unit from claiming the objective (i.e. it is not a denial unit).
As i suspected they did change it slightly in 7th. In 6th, only troops were scoring units but everything could deny except Swarms or other units explicitly denied it.
7th changed it to mention "models from your scoring units" when regarding to objective holding and denial. So a nonscoring unit cant deny anymore by default.
Well, that kinda sucks. Then again i almost never have this come into play anyway.
Peregrim wrote: If it's not a scoring unit, then it cannot prevent an enemy scoring unit from claiming the objective (i.e. it is not a denial unit).
As i suspected they did change it slightly in 7th. In 6th, only troops were scoring units but everything could deny except Swarms or other units explicitly denied it.
7th changed it to mention "models from your scoring units" when regarding to objective holding and denial. So a nonscoring unit cant deny anymore by default.
Well, that kinda sucks. Then again i almost never have this come into play anyway.
If they hadn't changed it, then the current codex would have listed drones as "non-scoring, non-denial" - just as the previous codex did.
Farsight is pretty much mandatory for the bomb, since their footprint is just insanely huge especially with the new base sizes. You "might" be able to squeak by with a homing beacon stealth suit team, but that would be highly risky and limit where they can land.
Problem is Farsight himself is pretty bleh. Hes strong but in the exact opposite way the Tau want strength in, so hes kinda pointless. I use him now and then but only for friendly games and not in a full fledge bomb. Shadowsun would vastly benefit the unit more once they get on the ground. Walking 4+ cover, going to a 2+ with pretty much any cover bonus, and 3D6 jetpack movements ftw. I just dont see how you'd expect to get her down with 9 suits and a mass of drones, or even without the drones lol. Also have the whole "infiltrate ICs cannot join noninfiltrate units during deployment" crap, even though youre deepstriking and not using that rule.
Frozocrone wrote: Is Farsighted Bomb still a viable play style with Tau?
Farsight, as he lets you really bomb an opponent. Shadowsun is better as a fast and mobile strike team, which is interesting since both styles play into their fluff with Farsight being the sort of instant strike, while Shadowsun is more about mobility and positioning before landing the strike.
Tinkrr wrote: I'd say the fun side of tournaments is both the social aspect and the games, as the games tend to feel closer and more alive. There's just something about playing weaker units that leaves the game feeling sluggish and clunky, which I don't really get at tournament play.
It's also something I noticed in bat reps, despite the Frontline gaming ones being longer they tend to hold my attention more than the MiniWargaming ones which generally have better editing and a faster pace. Not to say I dislike them, just I tend to tune out after a while, and sometimes the narrative stuff is fun, but too often it's a little too one sided which is a bummer.
I'll be playing on their Stream again next week with my Tau, you guys should check it out.
Which one are you again? They've had a lot of Tau players lately, an army description will be more useful than a name D:
Were you the one who was pinned the whole game by Skyhammer? Or the one who got Stomp-e-dee-stomped? I really liked the latter game, probably one of my favourite bat reps so far as there was some really awesome strategic advise for both players.
Peregrim wrote: Which character would be more valuable to a crisis bomb: Shadowsun or Farsight?
I would say Shadowsun. You're investing a lot of points into a bomb so you want to be getting the points back through kills ASAP. Shadowsun, with the 3D6" thrust move, allows you to be very fast and so you don't need to bomb in with a deep strike in order to get into range.
She also has better weapons than Farsight (two fusion blasters vs Plasma Rifle and Dawn Blade) and has an inbuilt split fire ability which allows her to fire each of her BS5 fusion blasters at a different target. Also, she confers stealth and shrouded to the bomb, giving it a 4+ cover save in the open which can be very valuable.
Frozocrone wrote: Hey everyone just got a Ghostkeel as I love the model and was wondering a couple of things.
Which load out should I give it?
Which formation is best for it, Wing or Cadre?
Optimized Stealth Cadre is simply bad ass. I'd do that (personally).
Im preparing a blog entry on the load outs which will be up soon. The load out on the Ghostkeel is a great question though. A lot ot consider on it. I like the fact that it is kind of a decision and not just an automatic.
Frozocrone wrote: Hey everyone just got a Ghostkeel as I love the model and was wondering a couple of things.
Which load out should I give it?
Which formation is best for it, Wing or Cadre?
The ion raker will be superior to the fusion collider against the most things (with a greater threat range to boot). I usually go with the fusion blaster as the secondary weapon but sometime swap it out with the burst cannon if I expect a horde style list (like orks). As for support systems, EWO is too good to pass up for the price of a guardsmen, even in a OSC where you can't make use of wall of mirrors while intercepting. It's better to have interception and not need it, as opposed to needing it and not having it. Again, EWO is dirt cheap. Velocity trackers are useful if you expect a lot of flyers and target locks are virtually mandatory if you are running a squadron of more than 1 ghostkeel. I usually run a single ghostkeel with ion raker, fusion blaster, ewo and velocity tracker. If I run a squadron of multiple ghostkeels I still give them ion rakers, fusion blasters and ewo's but I substitute the velocity trackers for target locks.
As for which formation is best between the ghostkeel wing and the OSC, the OSC will generally be the superior choice. Wall of mirrors BS boost will benefit the entire formation (regardless of what the units are targeting) whereas the wing needs to fire the first ghostkeel squad with no BS boost and then for the other ghostkeels to get the BS boost they have to fire at the same target which isn't always the wisest choice. Having built in ignores cover and always hitting the rear armour of vehicles is incredibly potent and the OSC can be taken as part of a hunter contingent and benefit from the command benefits as icing on the cake, whereas the ghostkeel wing is not actually part of the hunter contingent or the dawn blade. The wing's ability to ignore overwatch is circumstantially useful, but for the most part, you won't want them in assault. The only reason to really take the wing over the OSC is for the stealth bonus, which can be decent if you build a list around it. As discussed earlier giving stealth to drones from a drone net allows the drones (that can simultaneously jink and go to ground) to get a 2+ cover save in the open.
Frozocrone wrote: Hey everyone just got a Ghostkeel as I love the model and was wondering a couple of things.
Which load out should I give it? Which formation is best for it, Wing or Cadre?
CIR > Fusion gun any day every day. If it was 3shot fusions instead of a small blast, i'd say its a tough choice between the two. One small blast that wants a vehicle target isnt going to do squat compared to 6 S7 shots. Its literally AV14 vehicles that prefer you use the CIB, and how often are they around? Bursts or Fusions for the secondary gun is usually up to points to me. I see valid reasons for both, though Fusions are my usual go-to
As for the loadout, that depends. I tend to give them Stimpacks and Counterfire, but i havent run them in a formation yet and i like to be burly with'm (i.e. assault) so the stims get used a lot. If you use them in the OSC, you can EASILY outfit them to be one hell of a nasty AA platform.
OSC is just nasty. Even the stealthsuits in the formation become a major threat since they get all the goodies too. This is why i said the Bursts or Fusions is more of a point thing to me, 4 S5 shots hitting rear armor is just about as nasty as a single Melta against all except the few AV12 rear vehicles (or higher). I'd still take the fusions if i have the points, since the melta adds a wider range of targets.
Ghostkeel Wing is more support than primary force. They get the cascading +1BS perk the Riptide Wing has, but its nowhere near as crazy as the OSC. Still, granting a huge bubble of Stealth is more than sexy. Our vehicles already have a 3+ jink from Dpods, add a Ghost Wing and suddenly 2+ jinks! or improve pathfinder survivability and/or other squishy things. Problem is its 3 ghostkeel "units" so they will devour markerlights if you want to give them any, as they cannot be taken as an Aux for either of our big formations for Coord Fire. Also means they dont get Fire Team bonus. Giving them ignores cover will be a problem too. OSC is awesome even with a single ghostkeel, but if you run 3 in a unit...holy crap the firepower rofl
with the ready access of Interceptor and the fact that drone nets gain it as well, has anyone considered focusing on interceptor and only shooting in the shooting phase as a secondary option to a running redeployment?
I'm running 2 ghostkeel in a OSC with rakers, blasters, VTs and TL as my anti air. Misssilesides and such seem good, but I just like wall of mirrors, it's like it was made with vt in mind hitting them in rear and no jinks.
I was considering trying out a consertive crisis star, just the 9 with missile pods and target locks, with a buffmander and some defensive toys to tank (iridium, Stims). Support them with three skyrays (disruption pods ftw) and ally in 4 squads of legion of the damned (melta, melta & combi Grav) + inquisitor with servo skulls. Rounds off to 1850 with some min tax kroot for infiltrating or bubble wrapping.
Have the modals and it's the way I'd lean if I was to run a crisis 'bomb'. I think they are too flimsy to risk up close, Grav, melta, battle cannons , combat, all wreck them, and morale is an issue. The unit footprint would be large as well. At least with missile pods you can stay at long range or come from reserves on your own board edge.
On paper, a crisis star looks great for damage output, pity about the glass jaw and morale issues though.
Eh. Shadowsun can give you a beefed up save with Stealth and Shrouded. Buffmander can five you Stubborn for a turn. And you can get Fearless through the Eight formation, although its expensive for what you get
Been thinking, how can Tau deal with stuff like a wraithknight without using stuff like a stormsurge or ta'unar? I figured fusion blaster but those are pretty short ranged and especially with a melee wk it's going to be a pretty big challenge especially for suit heavy forces like what I'm using.
I think the best thing suits would probably be able to bring to deal with it is s7 spam and I don't think that's much good either.
If you're doing a footslogger Crisis star you could always team them with Shadowsun for more mobility and the awesome cover save. Then just get a leader in the star and slap the buffmander goodies on him. Could solve some of the issues with a plasma star or the like.
n0t_u wrote: Been thinking, how can Tau deal with stuff like a wraithknight without using stuff like a stormsurge or ta'unar? I figured fusion blaster but those are pretty short ranged and especially with a melee wk it's going to be a pretty big challenge especially for suit heavy forces like what I'm using.
I think the best thing suits would probably be able to bring to deal with it is s7 spam and I don't think that's much good either.
A Nova Charged Heavy Burst Cannon on one Riptide and an Ion Accelerator would do work. And if you really want to look at the full range of models available to Tau, there's the Y'Vahra too.
So reading through it, really the hymp is probably the most consistent weapon to use outside of getting the D from the surge's missiles. Even then it's going to take a while.
The advantage I can see the missilesides having over the riptide against it are simply more shots and access to sig systems through the commander leading to tank hunter. Probably the best we'll get.
Frozocrone wrote: Eh. Shadowsun can give you a beefed up save with Stealth and Shrouded. Buffmander can five you Stubborn for a turn. And you can get Fearless through the Eight formation, although its expensive for what you get
if you take the eight, there is no point to the buffmander. No PEN Chip (Sha'vastos), no MSS (Torchstar)
Fair point on shadowsun, she probably is worth it considering the warlord trait and defensive buffs. Expensive though considering you'd be mainly taking her for the stealth and shrouding, which has two issues, the amount of ignore cover floating about and she has infiltrate, so can't deploy with the unit, which is a bit awkward.
The nice thing about a walking crisis star is the relative cost, it's sub 700pts for the 9 and a tanky buffmander. Still something you really don't want to get gaked on from an alpha strike or battle cannon, but you do have plenty of pts to invest elsewhere. I think if you really wanted to invest in defensive measures for it, a void shield generator, inquisitor with servo skulls and ally in a minimal white scars force with a Grav cents unit and Corteaz in there with the obligatory drop pod. Maybe the librarian with hunters eye for extra sauce.
I know we as tau have plenty of sources of interceptor ourselves without needing allies, but Corteaz and some Grav cents, a void shield generator and inquisitor with servo skulls shuts down allot of stuff.
Mind you, I don't even own a riptide or stormsurge, a crisis suit man and mech tau myself, not a massive fan of Pacific rim style tau. Crisis suits don't really lend themselves to EWO.
If Wraithknights weren't so mobile, a unit of Breachers mounted in a Fish would be an interesting and cost-effective choice especially paired with a Sniper Drone Team - but I'm not sure that the Breachers would ever be able to catch the Wraithknight.
3 Sky Rays (assuming boosting BS to 5 with their own marker lights) will shoot 18 missiles, meaning 15 hits, which is 7.5 wounds, and after FnP thats 5 wounds, meaning the wraith knight is ALMOST dead... Could work I guess lol
Frozocrone wrote: Which load out should I give it?
Which formation is best for it, Wing or Cadre?
I find these two questions to be inter-related. Loadouts always vary depending on the role of the unit or necessity of task. The OSC and G-wing tend to perform very different for me.
The OSC will prefer to hunt armor, and do that task well. Due to missing out on Wall of Mirrors, I often do not like Intercepting with the OSC (but I always take it). The Raker/Blaster combo seems too perfect to pass up for this specialty. For a second system I like Velocity Trackers or Automated Targeting. Velocity Trackers are really expensive, but most other Factions would kill for a 160 point Interceptor/Skyfire-on-demand unit as durable as a Ghost. I loved the Ghost's model and got three right off the rip, so I like to run all three, but not together. The Fire Team rule is great, don't get me wrong, but I do have issues with them fielded in a squad of three. The huge footprint of the unit is cumbersome, and it makes them much easier to catch in assault. In my area most of the units that can catch them, are prepared to murder them quickly. I usually feel that one or two is more effective and the Fire Team bonus is not worth it.
The Wing is more my style, and I field it more often. The Ghosts are split up and are usually sticking close to the rest of my army to push out the Stealth Field bonus. As such, I usually prefer the Raker/Burst Cannon, because they do like to Intercept, and I find the Burst Cannon more effective in that role (but the Blaster is still good here). The benefits of the Networked Stealth Field can be huge, especially if you can get Night Attacker or Conqueror of Cities as a Warlord Trait, or just roll a Night Fight. Those 2+ cover saves can negate an awful lot of alpha strike shooting (Skyhammer). They are great harassment units in the Wing, but suffer offensively due to not being a part either Contingent. For a second system I usually take Automated Targeting, due to the volume of dice each rolls for offense, or Counterfire Defense, because they will almost always be within Supporting Fire range due to the Stealth Field. This is one of the Formations that feels really fluffy to me on the field.
n0t_u wrote: Been thinking, how can Tau deal with stuff like a wraithknight without using stuff like a stormsurge or ta'unar? I figured fusion blaster but those are pretty short ranged and especially with a melee wk it's going to be a pretty big challenge especially for suit heavy forces like what I'm using.
I think the best thing suits would probably be able to bring to deal with it is s7 spam and I don't think that's much good either.
Stormsurge. Str D missiles with ignores cover will take anything out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said, sometimes it is just best to try and ignore it (though that's a tenuous position, at best, for many Tau units who do not want to get assaulted).
n0t_u wrote: Been thinking, how can Tau deal with stuff like a wraithknight without using stuff like a stormsurge or ta'unar? I figured fusion blaster but those are pretty short ranged and especially with a melee wk it's going to be a pretty big challenge especially for suit heavy forces like what I'm using.
I think the best thing suits would probably be able to bring to deal with it is s7 spam and I don't think that's much good either.
Stormsurge. Str D missiles with ignores cover will take anything out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said, sometimes it is just best to try and ignore it (though that's a tenuous position, at best, for many Tau units who do not want to get assaulted).
Next time, read the whole post of the person you're quoting. He asked how to handle a Wraithknight WITHOUT using a Stormsurge.
Frozocrone wrote: Crisis Suits w/ Double Fusion? Attach a buffmander for ignore cover monster hunter...
4 suits on average to kill the ranged variant, 6 for melee (provided that I've done the mathammer right).
4 suits = 8 shots. The thing has 8 wounds and you are wounding on 4's. Even with a re-roll, thats 75% odds... and ofc assuming you hit with all 8. But it gets FNP, so close but not quite.
Lots of talk about 'killing' a unit. That results in suggestions of X or Y unit, generally costing huge amounts.
Have folks considered 'killing' its effectiveness? Doing things that mean it can't move, is engaged in melee, moving prime targets out of D-gun (or charge) range. Etc. All this can be done more a much fairer price and may accomplish much the same result.
Its pretty damn hard to avoid a ~42" threat range with its D weapons, and being Fearless you cant pin it, and Tau have no access to any psyker powers that dont care about fearless to make it always move through terrain (autopasses dangers but still moves 3D6 take and double the highest, so it'll slow down a little).
It has a stupidly high init, which makes no sense for a dead golem thing. Golems are always depicted as clucky but durable things in ANY universe, yet the Eldar ones are fast and nimble for some reason. If it had a crap init, i'd consider throwing Defensive Grenades at it to force blind tests. Init5 means im just going to throw my firewarriors away for no reason.
Vineheart01 wrote: Its pretty damn hard to avoid a ~42" threat range with its D weapons, and being Fearless you cant pin it, and Tau have no access to any psyker powers that dont care about fearless to make it always move through terrain (autopasses dangers but still moves 3D6 take and double the highest, so it'll slow down a little).
It has a stupidly high init, which makes no sense for a dead golem thing. Golems are always depicted as clucky but durable things in ANY universe, yet the Eldar ones are fast and nimble for some reason. If it had a crap init, i'd consider throwing Defensive Grenades at it to force blind tests. Init5 means im just going to throw my firewarriors away for no reason.
Which means we must resort to utilizing Stormsurge Destroyer Missiles to bring them down.
Not to derail the current discussion, but maybe someone could help me with something.
I already have 10 Fire-Warriors, and got two of the Starter Army bundles, meaning I can build another 20 Fire-Warriors, Breachers, or some combination thereof.
I don't know much about Breachers and don't have my Codex on hand, so is it worth building any of them? Is 30 Fire-Warriors just more than I would need, so I should do some Breachers just for options-sake?
Firewarriors as a whole are not very competitive other than being chrap and easy to hide. In a friendly style, less competitive list they can be freakishly good. I wouldn't take more than 10, but stick them in a Devilfish with Darkstrider for some scary damage output.
In a non-ITC environment where Coordinated Firepower works as it is (pretty clearly) written, I think you can make a good case for Fire Warriors being a reasonably competitive choice. Aside from drone factories, they're the cheapest source of S5 AP5 we have and have a very respectable range of 30". When you start stacking marker lights and special rules - twin-linked, ignores cover, monster hunter, -1T, and BS 5 is actually pretty easily achievable - they get scary. They're not very mobile, but a Hunter Contingent helps with that issue.
Just curious. I was running the math on a classic Buffmander (giving-twinked and ignores cover to everything), and I realized that unless you have a pretty large squad of suits with him, he's really not mathematically worth it -- you would be better off with him shooting.
So I was wondering if anybody has tried using a Buffcrisisbodyguard instead of a Buffmander? They can take the same systems, and you're sacrificing BS3 shots rather than BS5 ones; stick the Commander with him and he's shooting at BS10 effectively.
The downside is less durability though, obviouslt.
I've been liking a Buff-Shas'vre (Buff'vre?) rather than a Buffmander, as the buffing on its own seems to be a waste on a Commander platform since its not like I'll be moving the Buffer from unit to unit. Best use is on a max squad of Missile Pod Crisis suits, for me, anyway.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Not to derail the current discussion, but maybe someone could help me with something.
I already have 10 Fire-Warriors, and got two of the Starter Army bundles, meaning I can build another 20 Fire-Warriors, Breachers, or some combination thereof.
I don't know much about Breachers and don't have my Codex on hand, so is it worth building any of them? Is 30 Fire-Warriors just more than I would need, so I should do some Breachers just for options-sake?
Well the Breachers are fantastic as either Fish of Fury guys oooor.... as reserves whose job is to come on and defend the StormSurge from attacks (orjust bubble wrap but that is a little more iffy because they can get shot down on the approach and LD at boards edge?...)
I think the Tidewall makes Fire Warriors awfully burly. Super tough to kill them in there (relatively) plus they are a little mobile and they can re-roll 1's to hit. Pretty cool.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I've been liking a Buff-Shas'vre (Buff'vre?) rather than a Buffmander, as the buffing on its own seems to be a waste on a Commander platform since its not like I'll be moving the Buffer from unit to unit. Best use is on a max squad of Missile Pod Crisis suits, for me, anyway.
SJ
Only problem is you won't be able to have all 4 parts (PEN, C&CN, DC, MSS) of the "buffmander" on a sha'vre, who can only take 3.
well the DC isnt that important on the buffvre because hes only BS3. Big deal, i'd rather have my third support on any crisis suit than BS3 drones. The main drawback to me is you cant make him remotely a tankmander so he is strictly T4 3+ armor. If any S8 weapons hit him, no invul save or T5. Also if the rest of the unit dies, thats an expensive as hell model that cant do anything since he cant join another unit (ok 87pts which is about the cost of a naked commander but still, the wargear becomes wasted at this point)
Breachers in a devilfish are shockingly strong. They dont really have any added defenses since usually they die to failed armor saves anyway (except for the random and rare heavy flamer, my 4+ models usually get their armor since theyre low enough value to rather use the high strength associated with ap4 weapons against my vehicles or suits) but if you can disembark within 5" of a target it evaporates. They are kinda pricy for their durability though since you have to add in the 85-100pt fish, and once they leave it they no longer benefit from its durability.
Breachers also murder droppod lists. Even without a fish its very easy to get in range and slaughter them, and make great counter-reserves as a result.
Vineheart01 wrote: well the DC isnt that important on the buffvre because hes only BS3. Big deal, i'd rather have my third support on any crisis suit than BS3 drones. The main drawback to me is you cant make him remotely a tankmander so he is strictly T4 3+ armor. If any S8 weapons hit him, no invul save or T5. Also if the rest of the unit dies, thats an expensive as hell model that cant do anything since he cant join another unit (ok 87pts which is about the cost of a naked commander but still, the wargear becomes wasted at this point)
That isn't accurately comparing the 2. Buffmander would have BS5 drones. You can't have that with a buffed sha'vre
Vineheart01 wrote: well the DC isnt that important on the buffvre because hes only BS3. Big deal, i'd rather have my third support on any crisis suit than BS3 drones. The main drawback to me is you cant make him remotely a tankmander so he is strictly T4 3+ armor. If any S8 weapons hit him, no invul save or T5. Also if the rest of the unit dies, thats an expensive as hell model that cant do anything since he cant join another unit (ok 87pts which is about the cost of a naked commander but still, the wargear becomes wasted at this point)
That isn't accurately comparing the 2. Buffmander would have BS5 drones. You can't have that with a buffed sha'vre
And he's saying that you could give a commander suit the drone controller and attach him to the unit with the buff'vre.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I've been liking a Buff-Shas'vre (Buff'vre?) rather than a Buffmander, as the buffing on its own seems to be a waste on a Commander platform since its not like I'll be moving the Buffer from unit to unit. Best use is on a max squad of Missile Pod Crisis suits, for me, anyway.
SJ
Only problem is you won't be able to have all 4 parts (PEN, C&CN, DC, MSS) of the "buffmander" on a sha'vre, who can only take 3.
You can have all of them on a Crisis Bodyguard, though. Who is identical to a Shas'vre in cost and stats. Or spread them out through a small unit of bodyguards.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They can also take iridum armour.
if you are taking a hunter cadre, spread the buffmander's gear - C&C Node, MSS, & PEN Chip across the Crisis Shas'vres. Then, when you CFP, you can still combine them ala the buffmander.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I've been liking a Buff-Shas'vre (Buff'vre?) rather than a Buffmander, as the buffing on its own seems to be a waste on a Commander platform since its not like I'll be moving the Buffer from unit to unit. Best use is on a max squad of Missile Pod Crisis suits, for me, anyway.
SJ
Only problem is you won't be able to have all 4 parts (PEN, C&CN, DC, MSS) of the "buffmander" on a sha'vre, who can only take 3.
Drone Controller is not necessary, especially if running with a Drone-Net which would already boost any Drones to BS3. The ability to get 32 twin-linked cover ignoring Missiles in a single salvo is worth the minor expense, and save my Missile Pod Commander for other functions such as controling Broadside Missile Drones for even more Missiles, only this time at BS5. If I'm going to go anime Mech, might as well go full Robotech.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I've been liking a Buff-Shas'vre (Buff'vre?) rather than a Buffmander, as the buffing on its own seems to be a waste on a Commander platform since its not like I'll be moving the Buffer from unit to unit. Best use is on a max squad of Missile Pod Crisis suits, for me, anyway.
SJ
Only problem is you won't be able to have all 4 parts (PEN, C&CN, DC, MSS) of the "buffmander" on a sha'vre, who can only take 3.
Drone Controller is not necessary, especially if running with a Drone-Net which would already boost any Drones to BS3. The ability to get 32 twin-linked cover ignoring Missiles in a single salvo is worth the minor expense, and save my Missile Pod Commander for other functions such as controling Broadside Missile Drones for even more Missiles, only this time at BS5. If I'm going to go anime Mech, might as well go full Robotech.
SJ
Missile Drones are not affected by the Drone Controller.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I've been liking a Buff-Shas'vre (Buff'vre?) rather than a Buffmander, as the buffing on its own seems to be a waste on a Commander platform since its not like I'll be moving the Buffer from unit to unit. Best use is on a max squad of Missile Pod Crisis suits, for me, anyway.
SJ
Only problem is you won't be able to have all 4 parts (PEN, C&CN, DC, MSS) of the "buffmander" on a sha'vre, who can only take 3.
Drone Controller is not necessary, especially if running with a Drone-Net which would already boost any Drones to BS3. The ability to get 32 twin-linked cover ignoring Missiles in a single salvo is worth the minor expense, and save my Missile Pod Commander for other functions such as controling Broadside Missile Drones for even more Missiles, only this time at BS5. If I'm going to go anime Mech, might as well go full Robotech.
SJ
Missile Drones are not affected by the Drone Controller.
Yeah, I know that, not sure why I said it. Meant to say that Commander's Marker Drones are BS5.
So one thing I'd like to try at some point is a Shadow-Star with a Buff'vre. She provides the unit with some rather powerful over saves, potentially better shield drones, and her weapons are pretty solid if you're running Plasma goons. Then the Buff'vre buffs her and the others, while she just makes them zoom around the field with her Warlord trait.
The only bad thing is you can't really work in an Iridium Armour anywhere without taking the bodyguard, for extra good look out ma'am saves.
Given the extra risk of ID with Shadowsun (S6 is fairly prevalent), do you think investing the extra points for XV8 Bodyguards is worthwhile? Comes with the extra benefit of Sig. Systems not taking weapon/support system slots.
Participating in a campaign, and there are 1k and 2k point battles. I'm having trouble getting a really competitive 1k list made though! The missions will be Maelstrom of War missions. I prefer lots of suits. What do you guys suggest? Is a Hunter Cadre or Dawn Blade Contingent doable at this point level or should I just stick to a CAD?
: Dawn Blade Contingent (Primary Detachment)
1 Retaliation Cadre
That's a lot of Fusion Blasters, do you really plan on playing against that many vehicles? I would probably take some Missile Pods in some places instead.
Also, both lists have too many Marker Drones in my opinion. I use that many in my 1850/2k list, 16 markerlight drones in 1k (especially with only 5 units who can benefit from them) will leave you with too many markerlights on certain units.
Well as this is the tactics thread, I was asking about overall tactics for a 1k list, not just looking at the two lists I made as examples. I guess I'll make one in army lists as well titled 1000 but need help creating a list lol
Noctem wrote: Well as this is the tactics thread, I was asking about overall tactics for a 1k list, not just looking at the two lists I made as examples. I guess I'll make one in army lists as well titled 1000 but need help creating a list lol
Alright back to taking tactics, now that ITC has allowed experimental rules, had anyone tried the R'Varna or the Y'Vahra in any of their events? I used the Y'Vahra against Reece on his stream this Tuesday and I'll take it to a local LVO prep tournament this weekend. That guy is a beast and I don't think I'll ever take it off my list unless the next Imperial Armour nerfs it into extinction. I'm even considering purchasing another one of these bad boys.
DirtyDeeds wrote: Alright back to taking tactics, now that ITC has allowed experimental rules, had anyone tried the R'Varna or the Y'Vahra in any of their events? I used the Y'Vahra against Reece on his stream this Tuesday and I'll take it to a local LVO prep tournament this weekend. That guy is a beast and I don't think I'll ever take it off my list unless the next Imperial Armour nerfs it into extinction. I'm even considering purchasing another one of these bad boys.
Not in ITC, but I've got two Y'vahras. They're pretty amazing. When they can hit invisible units too, holy crap.
The next IA can be bad, but then again, Y'vahra wings? Could also be ridiculous.
I would be interested in revisiting the issue of the Tidewall Rampart. that is a whole new thing for The Tau Empire and i get the distinct impression that the Tidewall and its component possibilities are getting somewhat overlooked and not experimented with. I'd be interedt in how people have tried it and kinds of a detailed look at what al the positieves and negatives were
DirtyDeeds wrote: As of right now, the Forgeworld models cannot be taken in any GW formation, so you can only take those models in a standard CAD.
It would be exceptional if the next FW Tau update followed in the Doom's footprint. Mixing Auxiliary formations of FW units and choosing new detachment options in a "Create Your Own Sept/Enclave" way. The idea of losing my Tetras has made it hard to commit to the the Contingents for more than a game or two.
Jancoran wrote: I would be interested in revisiting the issue of the Tidewall Rampart. that is a whole new thing for The Tau Empire and i get the distinct impression that the Tidewall and its component possibilities are getting somewhat overlooked and not experimented with. I'd be interedt in how people have tried it and kinds of a detailed look at what al the positieves and negatives were
Having bought the rampart box and played around with it a bit, it is a godsend to Broadsides and Pathfinders. Being able to move 6" while counting has having been stationary in the movement phase is huge for both of them, plus having a constant 4+ cover save and being able to reflect shots on the shieldlines. Broadsides (at least the new 60mm base ones) will only fit on a shieldline as the platforms are too small to hold multiple of them, but they rest/balance very easily on the shieldlines so that's no issue. The 4 drones you get with the droneport are great, 4 extra marker drones doesn't hurt. The gunrig is a TL railgun with submunitions, nothing to complain about there at all. As has been discussed in the past, putting Darkstrider on the gunrig makes it scary good. S10 AP1/S6 AP4 large blast at -1T? A lot of things are scared of that. Even without Darkstrider, throw a Cadre Fireblade on it, being BS5 and TL on a railgun is quite fun.
I think the problem with trying to use the shield line is that it can't touch terrain and it must maintain the same shape as when it was originally deployed, severely reducing the scope of the fortification.
Y'vahra might have to be my first ever FW purchase. i love the sound of its current rules, and love the idea of a speedy-face Tau model that intentionally chooses to engage at medium range.
Jancoran wrote: I would be interested in revisiting the issue of the Tidewall Rampart. that is a whole new thing for The Tau Empire and i get the distinct impression that the Tidewall and its component possibilities are getting somewhat overlooked and not experimented with. I'd be interedt in how people have tried it and kinds of a detailed look at what al the positieves and negatives were
Having bought the rampart box and played around with it a bit, it is a godsend to Broadsides and Pathfinders. Being able to move 6" while counting has having been stationary in the movement phase is huge for both of them, plus having a constant 4+ cover save and being able to reflect shots on the shieldlines. Broadsides (at least the new 60mm base ones) will only fit on a shieldline as the platforms are too small to hold multiple of them, but they rest/balance very easily on the shieldlines so that's no issue. The 4 drones you get with the droneport are great, 4 extra marker drones doesn't hurt. The gunrig is a TL railgun with submunitions, nothing to complain about there at all. As has been discussed in the past, putting Darkstrider on the gunrig makes it scary good. S10 AP1/S6 AP4 large blast at -1T? A lot of things are scared of that. Even without Darkstrider, throw a Cadre Fireblade on it, being BS5 and TL on a railgun is quite fun.
So do you use the Rampart AS the rampart? Have you tried the other variations as well? Any stories to tell on that?
I went ahead and invested so I can have three gunrigs. This seemed like a very impressive if expensive amount of firepower to field and they are not a unit so they can fire at three targets or combine fire.
Heres a question: if they combine fire with DarkStrider... is it as good as that implies? Seems like it would work...
Jancoran wrote: I would be interested in revisiting the issue of the Tidewall Rampart. that is a whole new thing for The Tau Empire and i get the distinct impression that the Tidewall and its component possibilities are getting somewhat overlooked and not experimented with. I'd be interedt in how people have tried it and kinds of a detailed look at what al the positieves and negatives were
Having bought the rampart box and played around with it a bit, it is a godsend to Broadsides and Pathfinders. Being able to move 6" while counting has having been stationary in the movement phase is huge for both of them, plus having a constant 4+ cover save and being able to reflect shots on the shieldlines. Broadsides (at least the new 60mm base ones) will only fit on a shieldline as the platforms are too small to hold multiple of them, but they rest/balance very easily on the shieldlines so that's no issue. The 4 drones you get with the droneport are great, 4 extra marker drones doesn't hurt. The gunrig is a TL railgun with submunitions, nothing to complain about there at all. As has been discussed in the past, putting Darkstrider on the gunrig makes it scary good. S10 AP1/S6 AP4 large blast at -1T? A lot of things are scared of that. Even without Darkstrider, throw a Cadre Fireblade on it, being BS5 and TL on a railgun is quite fun.
So do you use the Rampart AS the rampart? Have you tried the other variations as well? Any stories to tell on that?
I went ahead and invested so I can have three gunrigs. This seemed like a very impressive if expensive amount of firepower to field and they are not a unit so they can fire at three targets or combine fire.
Heres a question: if they combine fire with DarkStrider... is it as good as that implies? Seems like it would work...
I did use it as the Rampart and only the Rampart thus far. I don't have the rules for the other fortifications and I'm pretty sure I don't have the proper amount of models for the other set ups at this point anyway. So unfortunately I can't comment on those. Involving Darkstrider with the gunrig is just as good as it implies. BS5 and -1T to the target means a TL Railgun suddenly becomes a VERY scary prospect for anything that's not T6+ or AV14 all around. 3 Gunrigs seems to me like it would be pretty good, more reliable firepower than 3 Hammerheads being TL, but overall less survivable as gun emplacements rather than 13/12/10 skimmers. Thinking about it now, not knowing the points cost of that off the top of my head, 3 gunrigs could potentially be a very potent addition to an army list. The main problem would be the risk of the model manning the gun being taken out and of course that dedicated heavy firepower would take them out fairly early on once they show their strength.
Jancoran wrote: 85 points for the gunrig. i plan to put Sniper Drones in it, as they are BS 5
Slight correction, the Firesight Marksmen are BS5, their drone controller transfers it to the Drones. So while it will still work, if the Marksman dies then your gunrig will be BS2. Also the Sniper Drones will have to shoot at whatever the gunrig does as they're still counted as a unit (I believe) and don't have access to target locks. Personally I would go with a Cadre Fireblade or Darkstrider attached to a Breacher Team for the S6 AP3 overwatch protection and the Ob Sec for back field objectives (plant the gunrigs on an objective in your deployment zone), but I can see Sniper Drones working too.
Jancoran wrote: 85 points for the gunrig. i plan to put Sniper Drones in it, as they are BS 5
Slight correction, the Firesight Marksmen are BS5, their drone controller transfers it to the Drones. So while it will still work, if the Marksman dies then your gunrig will be BS2. Also the Sniper Drones will have to shoot at whatever the gunrig does as they're still counted as a unit (I believe) and don't have access to target locks. Personally I would go with a Cadre Fireblade or Darkstrider attached to a Breacher Team for the S6 AP3 overwatch protection and the Ob Sec for back field objectives (plant the gunrigs on an objective in your deployment zone), but I can see Sniper Drones working too.
Cadre Fireblade has splitfire. he can join the Sniper Drones and max out their shooting.
Personally, an associated drone network, and/or a CAD that packs a few tetras. depending on fame size.
Adding an IC to a unit does not make it a part of a formation, and he gains none of the benefits.
And signature systems counting against system count depends on unit type.
For those with signature systems noted in the same dot as the support systems it does, for those with a separate dot it does not.
Ahh thank you Boomwolf I wasnt paying close enough attention.
With the tidewall I am interested in the shieldline by itself, can I buy 2 shieldlines and stick them together or do they come seperate, how does it work? (I play ITC rules)
Jancoran wrote: 85 points for the gunrig. i plan to put Sniper Drones in it, as they are BS 5
Slight correction, the Firesight Marksmen are BS5, their drone controller transfers it to the Drones. So while it will still work, if the Marksman dies then your gunrig will be BS2. Also the Sniper Drones will have to shoot at whatever the gunrig does as they're still counted as a unit (I believe) and don't have access to target locks. Personally I would go with a Cadre Fireblade or Darkstrider attached to a Breacher Team for the S6 AP3 overwatch protection and the Ob Sec for back field objectives (plant the gunrigs on an objective in your deployment zone), but I can see Sniper Drones working too.
Cadre Fireblade has splitfire. he can join the Sniper Drones and max out their shooting.
I had forgotten about that! (My Fireblade doesn't get to see much table time unfortunately lol). That would work pretty well, other than those moments you fail the LD test for splitfire. Yeah in that case, Sniper Drones would be the way to go there.
I wouldn't be surprised if Forge World pulls another Skathach Wraithknight scenario where you can replace regular Riptides with R'Varnas or Y'Vahras. If they did the same thing with Barracudas for the Air Caste formations or the Ta'unar with Stormsurges.....yikes. I am really curious what that upcoming Imperial Armor does for Tau, I'm expecting the Ta'unar to get nerfed in some way. Speaking of which, any word on when that will come out?
I was under the impression it was going to come out about the same time as the tau dex. That totally happened didnt it?
I havent heard anything about that book, and im beginning to think its not a thing. If it is, cool because lot of the FW models in the current edition really need some help (if Hazards were ~30 points cheaper or had 3 wounds, i'd probably be fine with them as they are)
Also i really dont think the Ta'unar would get nerfed. Small price increase maybe but any of its stats, no. Compared to Titans its not OP at all, just strong as hell like all Titans.
Theres literally always been a line between normal 40k, forgeworld, and apocalypse. Apocalypse is where the Titans come out, Ta'unar is the same level of a Titan.
Beginning to think the book is not a thing? There have been pictures leaked from it with artwork of the various Forge World Battlesuits, plus confirmation that it features Red Scorpions and the Adeptus Mechanicus alongside the Tau. It is happening dude, hopefully it comes out sooner rather than later though.
The problem with the Ta'unar is that it is significantly under-priced compared to most other Gargantuan Creatures, and it's widely regarded as being over-powered by tournament players. There's also the problem that its massive Destroyer blast can easily get Ignores Cover which eliminates one of the few tools for armies to survive that kind of firepower. It needs a nerf, whether it is a minor or major one is up to Forge World to decide.
The Tau imperial armour is rumored to come out this summer.
And honestly, I wouldn't take the yvahra in the Riptide wing, they don't want to be stationary. The Rvarna on the other hand... ripple fire those cannons for 8 templates...
Jancoran wrote: 85 points for the gunrig. i plan to put Sniper Drones in it, as they are BS 5
Slight correction, the Firesight Marksmen are BS5, their drone controller transfers it to the Drones. So while it will still work, if the Marksman dies then your gunrig will be BS2. Also the Sniper Drones will have to shoot at whatever the gunrig does as they're still counted as a unit (I believe) and don't have access to target locks. Personally I would go with a Cadre Fireblade or Darkstrider attached to a Breacher Team for the S6 AP3 overwatch protection and the Ob Sec for back field objectives (plant the gunrigs on an objective in your deployment zone), but I can see Sniper Drones working too.
Cadre Fireblade has splitfire. he can join the Sniper Drones and max out their shooting.
I had forgotten about that! (My Fireblade doesn't get to see much table time unfortunately lol). That would work pretty well, other than those moments you fail the LD test for splitfire. Yeah in that case, Sniper Drones would be the way to go there.
There is no LD check for Splitfire. It will work always.
Yeah the LD test for splitfire was removed, its automatic now. However unlike Target Locks its limited to one model in a unit, so even though every drone in our Drone Net formation has Splitifre only a singular drone can do it.
Cadre Fireblade on the other hand its perfectly fine with, since nothing else has the rule anyway. Shas'ui in a firewarrior squad can get Target Locks but that obviously doesnt conflict with Splitfire....and its way too pricy for a firewarrior model lol
I recently acquired a stormsurge, and I was wondering a couple things about it. I decided that if I do field it, I would treat it as a MC with the exceptions listed in the book. However, there are a couple things that are making me wonder. (sorry, working on 3 hrs sleep)
1. I'm planning on taking an EWO standard and running it with a drone net. By my understanding of the interaction, I could fire each of its weapons at a different unit, provided enough entered the board? (I plan to be able to use the D missiles to intercept)
2. I elected to read GMC shooting on P. 70 of the rulebook as GMCs essentially having 2 fire modes: 2 weapons at a single target or each weapon at a different target. My question is this: the second one, 'each weapon at a different target' can only be used once - before the destroyer missiles are fired?
Oh. . .
the Ranged Support Cadre Pathfinders; if I infiltrate them on top of a Tidewall Shieldline, would they lose Shrouded if\when I move the shieldline?
**edit** nevermind about the pathfinders **edit**
carldooley wrote: I recently acquired a stormsurge, and I was wondering a couple things about it. I decided that if I do field it, I would treat it as a MC with the exceptions listed in the book. However, there are a couple things that are making me wonder. (sorry, working on 3 hrs sleep)
Treat is a Gargantuan Creature because that's what it is.
1. I'm planning on taking an EWO standard and running it with a drone net. By my understanding of the interaction, I could fire each of its weapons at a different unit, provided enough entered the board? (I plan to be able to use the D missiles to intercept)
2. I elected to read GMC shooting on P. 70 of the rulebook as GMCs essentially having 2 fire modes: 2 weapons at a single target or each weapon at a different target. My question is this: the second one, 'each weapon at a different target' can only be used once - before the destroyer missiles are fired?
A GC can fire each of its weapons at a different target, however there might be some discussion regarding firing weapons of the same type and that they should be fired together. In my view the GC rules override this and lets a GC fire each weapon at a different target.
Random modeling questions for you guys, im in need of as many Cyclic Ion Blasters and Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors as possible. Is there anyone on here that would be willing to part with any of the above bits for the right price? Or has anyone found any suitable replacements for both weapon systems?
Being willing to part on a per-user basis, you will never find enough.
The bits are RARE. they come only in commander boxes and one of each, meaning most people will have one, at most two, if any at all.
Now, as for alternatives, Paulson's "Light Mecha parts" are built to match with crisis suits, so its a good place to start.
"Grenade Launcher" makes a good AFP, Energy Blaster makes a good CiB.
http://www.paulson-games.com/mecha_parts___54mm.html
Forgeworld models do not count as the model they are based on. Y'vahra and R'varna are not Riptides, even though they are variants of one.
Okay so which is better;
3 Riptides in a wing (2x Burst, 1x Ion)
Or 2x Riptides + Y'vahra in a standard CAD ?
(Yes there is also a SS, some tetras, a Mark'o and a skyray, all in 1500pts).
It's a tough call and something I plan on trying out in my own list. The Riptide Wing has a great alpha strike and is great for keeping the nova profile running all day. But the Y'Vahra has a good alpha strike for different reasons; because of its Swooping Move and Ap 2 flamer, you can get behind Tank characters and eat the juicy units or kill tanks with his haywire gun.
I think at that point level and with the lost you already have, I think the Riptide Wing would be sufficient.
CKO wrote: If I were to add darkstrider to a Hunter Contingent unit does his special rule work with coordinated fire?
Darkstrider cannot be taken in a Hunter Contingent. But he is an ICHQ, so can join either a Breacher, Strike, or Pathfinder Team (that is in the HC), then by all means.
But isn't he supposed to be shepherding a trio of gunrigs?
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gmaleron wrote: Random modeling questions for you guys, im in need of as many Cyclic Ion Blasters and Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors as possible. Is there anyone on here that would be willing to part with any of the above bits for the right price? Or has anyone found any suitable replacements for both weapon systems?
please remember that the stormsurge comes with 2 AFPs
ITC doesnt allow special rules to share between the units in Coord Fire, only markerlights. He can still participate if you join him to a unit that is in the Hunter Cont. formation because he counts as part of the unit per IC rules, and nothing denies the unit from the formation rules because an IC joined.
But his Target Analyzer only affects his unit anyway.
gmaleron wrote: Random modeling questions for you guys, im in need of as many Cyclic Ion Blasters and Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors as possible. Is there anyone on here that would be willing to part with any of the above bits for the right price? Or has anyone found any suitable replacements for both weapon systems?
Paulson Games has some great Tau stuff. The "energy blasters" and "grenade launchers" are the CIBs and ABFPs, incidentally. I've gotten some of the energy blasters before, they're pretty good. Got a whole crisis squad tooled up with them and they do insane damage when they deep strike.
gmaleron wrote: Random modeling questions for you guys, im in need of as many Cyclic Ion Blasters and Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors as possible. Is there anyone on here that would be willing to part with any of the above bits for the right price? Or has anyone found any suitable replacements for both weapon systems?
Paulson Games has some great Tau stuff. The "energy blasters" and "grenade launchers" are the CIBs and ABFPs, incidentally. I've gotten some of the energy blasters before, they're pretty good. Got a whole crisis squad tooled up with them and they do insane damage when they deep strike.
Anyone else feel as though no one actually reads the threads?
gmaleron wrote: Random modeling questions for you guys, im in need of as many Cyclic Ion Blasters and Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors as possible. Is there anyone on here that would be willing to part with any of the above bits for the right price? Or has anyone found any suitable replacements for both weapon systems?
Paulson Games has some great Tau stuff. The "energy blasters" and "grenade launchers" are the CIBs and ABFPs, incidentally. I've gotten some of the energy blasters before, they're pretty good. Got a whole crisis squad tooled up with them and they do insane damage when they deep strike.
Anyone else feel as though no one actually reads the threads?
The Y'vahra does look soo sweet too.. I'll have a few play tests.
He's a beast, I went to a tournament yesterday and he was nearly the MVP over my Stormsurge (Stormsurge got it because he killed two Grav Centurions turn one before they could Gate over, and killed a Wraithknight with only two D missiles in another, and held a melee Wraithknight in combat for FOUR TURNS.
The Y'Vahra on the other hand, killed a gak ton of Scatter Bikes in my first and third games, and helped with the Centurion Star in the second.
Y'vahra as the rules are right now is rather OP. The flamer im fine with, causing 3 Haywire im fine with, causing 3 Haywire on top of 3 normal damage im not fine with. And his jump should only be once per game.
I dont own one but ive proxied a Riptide as one multiple times. He consistently annihilates Monoliths or other such heavy vehicles then bounces across the map to rip objective holders a new one. You cant hide from him because he is just so insanely fast. Never had him get in combat either because that massive jump coupled with jetpacks can make him literally shift to the opposite side of the table in one turn...nothing that can assault can keep up with that.
Never messed with the R'varna but to me hes in the same boat as why i love my Ghostkeels. Durable as nails and just causes a ton of wounds, but doesnt pen armor most of the time so its not OP by default. Weight of dice kills things but ive had it bite me in the ass about as much as ive had it go my way where that 2+ or even 3+ bastard im shooting at doesnt fail a single thing.
because I would think 
Can you tell I don't use Riptides? 
