Any talk of Dark Age gets me bummed out over not just that but Wrath of Kings as well.
I still wonder why they haven't really done anything with the Wrath of Kings ruleset.
I thought the rules were created in house, despite the game world being pretty developed prior to landing with the CMON kickstarter.
I thought it played at a really nice size, scaled well, and had some interesting mechanics with the dice charts on the cards.
I thoroughly enjoyed both Wrath of Kings and Dark Age. I too am baffled that they have let these two properties languish when there are already a bunch of models they can crank out quickly AND very fully developed worlds.
Gah... just the mention of Wrath of Kings made me search ebay for more stuff to buy. Despite having 4 unopened boxes... (Zeti, Shorza, Union pig guys and Shael han sexy chinese girls).... And just bought another Iron-Eyes... thanks guys...
Smokestack wrote: Gah... just the mention of Wrath of Kings made me search ebay for more stuff to buy. Despite having 4 unopened boxes... (Zeti, Shorza, Union pig guys and Shael han sexy chinese girls).... And just bought another Iron-Eyes... thanks guys...
*twitches in the corner*
I have soooo many assembled and primed Ashmen...50? I need to go count. I was planning on painting them like Griffon Templars from Confrontation, but the best laid plans...
Sacredroach wrote: I thoroughly enjoyed both Wrath of Kings and Dark Age. I too am baffled that they have let these two properties languish when there are already a bunch of models they can crank out quickly AND very fully developed worlds.
Beautiful miniatures and fun rule sets - all gone now, sacrificed on the altar of crowdfunding campaigns, small amounts of SKUs and quick interest free loans...
I still hope that someday they'll sell off the properties or maybe license them to someone.
Sacredroach wrote: I thoroughly enjoyed both Wrath of Kings and Dark Age. I too am baffled that they have let these two properties languish when there are already a bunch of models they can crank out quickly AND very fully developed worlds.
Beautiful miniatures and fun rule sets - all gone now, sacrificed on the altar of crowdfunding campaigns, small amounts of SKUs and quick interest free loans...
I still hope that someday they'll sell off the properties or maybe license them to someone.
I think that part that irritates me most is that once one of these kind of games is "over," nobody wants to play it anymore...I have an Ice Caste Dragyri skirmish force fully painted and based, a Goritsi and a Nassir army fully painted and based, and SO MUCH AT-43...and cannot find opponents unless I force them on my boardgame group. Which I do about three times a year...
Furthermore, the Wrath of Kings website and the Dark Age game system is still listed on CMON's website...c'mon CMON, there is demand.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Any talk of Dark Age gets me bummed out over not just that but Wrath of Kings as well.
I still wonder why they haven't really done anything with the Wrath of Kings ruleset.
I thought the rules were created in house, despite the game world being pretty developed prior to landing with the CMON kickstarter.
I thought it played at a really nice size, scaled well, and had some interesting mechanics with the dice charts on the cards.
Random speculation: CMON's boardgames (eg. Zombicide, Arcadia Quest) were *very* popular at the time, and the boardgaming audience is much larger than the miniatures one. That's also why "Cool Mini or Not" became CMON. With GW's killing of Oldhammer, the more fantasy-based and originally miniatures agnostic Mantic Kings of War better filled the void than Wrath of Kings. It's possible that CMON killed Dark Ages for Wrath of Kings because the CMON advocate left the company, or starting a new miniatures line, perhaps one that encouraged more miniatures, would bring in more money. Also, CMON extensively used KS (it still does, but later would release some games directly to retail), which works better for one-shot boardgame releases, than a miniatures line that needs continual support. ASOIAF perhaps was at the right place at the right time, with CMON able to sustain regular support for retail. No idea about the licensing, but could be that other companies are more interested in developing their own IP -- seems like CMON's the only boardgame company that licenses other boardgames, although I'm sure others exist. I know Confrontation has been licensed from its current holder, who has no interest in games. Unfortunately, good product is rarely any reason to continue making it.
I think Wrath of Kings failed because of the weird juxtaposition of Saturday Morning Cartoon design with adult kink. It seemed embarrassing to plunk down in front of a random person.
"This is my Chibi Demon and these are my THICC Shael Han Pelegarth in thongs and nipple tape. Those are your kinky Pigmen with nipple clamps being dominated er...mounted...er ridden by those gnome guys"
I say this as a person with many many of those Pigmen and Pelegarth...
The sculpt and detail level on many of the core troops was pretty bad. The Fishmen just didn't work, the Chinese bathrobe guys were absolutely tiny, etc.
"This is my Chibi Demon and these are my THICC Shael Han Pelegarth in thongs and nipple tape. Those are your kinky Pigmen with nipple clamps being dominated er...mounted...er ridden by those gnome guys"
*pushes glasses up the bridge of my nose and speaks extra nasally* "Um... the Pelegarth are Nasier, not Shael Han"....
But yeah I get that. The Shael Han "Big Sisters", the Shael Han Iron Lotus and Black Lotus and the Goritsi Skarza female sculpts all had a degree of that though none as bad as the Pelagarth... which my local group referred to as "fat bottom girls". Our dedicated Nasier guy didnt like em so didnt use them so I ended up with all his fat bottom girls.
As someone with the previous version(s) of DUST and also a lot of Zombicide, I have to say I'm ok with this. Zombicide makes it to the table a lot more often than DUST does, espcially with the plug-and-play nature of it all.
Now I wonder when these comic packs will start showing up around here...?
As someone with the previous version(s) of DUST and also a lot of Zombicide, I have to say I'm ok with this. Zombicide makes it to the table a lot more often than DUST does, espcially with the plug-and-play nature of it all.
Now I wonder when these comic packs will start showing up around here...?
Huh. I love the Zombicide system, and would love to see it expanded, but I didn't realize they were doing this (i.e., Zombicide-i-fying a bunch of their games). Dust seems an odd choice for this system. I got to play it once or twice, and thought it worked fine as a wargame - but maybe they're completely redoing it? I'm rather curious to see how the Zombicide system might work in a tabletop wargame... The Dead Keep which goes up to crowdfunding in a week, also looks like it's going to drawn on that system too. I'm curious to see where they go with it.
> Huh. I love the Zombicide system, and would love to see it expanded, but I didn't realize they were doing this
I'll just add that I remember Massive Darkness as some sort of non-zombie Zombicide successor, but I think its "micro XP" campaign rules and "miniatures as would points" systems, both added after the first MD campaign, hurt the game. Myself, I didn't pick up MD2 because of the "miniatures I'll never use" that they offered as SG's. (I forgot if MD has a spell system that I like, even though the MD1 KS is in my room.) Too bad MD didn't take off, as it would mean I'd have some non-zombified boss miniatures.
Personally, I sorta chuck all dice-based combat games into the same bucket. Yeah, I also have Wrath of Kings sitting on the shelf and haven't looked closely at their ruleset, either. Still, good to see a game company that's realizing you don't have to re-invent a d6 every single franchise.
Massive Darkness 2 had its own weird issues, like melee enemies being able to hurt ranged attackers without being next to them and the like.
It was fun enough but it was clear someone couldn't let go of certain game design ideas even though they didn't make sense for the game they were trying to make.
Not sure I'm interested in another take on "Zombicide converted into a dungeon crawl". Zombicide wasn't even that fun to begin with.
ced1106 wrote: > Huh. I love the Zombicide system, and would love to see it expanded, but I didn't realize they were doing this
I'll just add that I remember Massive Darkness as some sort of non-zombie Zombicide successor, but I think its "micro XP" campaign rules and "miniatures as would points" systems, both added after the first MD campaign, hurt the game. Myself, I didn't pick up MD2 because of the "miniatures I'll never use" that they offered as SG's. (I forgot if MD has a spell system that I like, even though the MD1 KS is in my room.) Too bad MD didn't take off, as it would mean I'd have some non-zombified boss miniatures.
Personally, I sorta chuck all dice-based combat games into the same bucket. Yeah, I also have Wrath of Kings sitting on the shelf and haven't looked closely at their ruleset, either. Still, good to see a game company that's realizing you don't have to re-invent a d6 every single franchise.
I heard from a lot of folks that MD1 wasn't very good, but that they made MD2 much more fun - I didn't play either; they didn't look that great to me as I was looking for an "expanded zombicide" and it seems that's the path they're taking with Dead Keep (the darkness/light mechanism in MD seemed odd even in the descriptions, and while the minis looked nice, it just looked a bit clunky - and I never even bothered looking at MD2). Though I never play anymore, Zombicide was the perfect dice chucker for my group. They really nailed the balance well, and I loved that we lost many a close game of that one. Hopefully DK will capture that spirit.
The Dead Keep campaign is up and I do hope they have a terrain stretch goal that includes an outhouse. There are seemingly alot of very full bladders on offer in the set!
warboss wrote: The Dead Keep campaign is up and I do hope they have a terrain stretch goal that includes an outhouse. There are seemingly alot of very full bladders on offer in the set!
It's looking like a straight up pre-order: no stretch goals at all. It's also a bit pricey... (but the base game does come with a lot of stuff... and there's a box-o-extras thrown in. This will be a shelf hog)
But it does look like a version of Zombicide that I would like a lot... So I'm in!
warboss wrote: The Dead Keep campaign is up and I do hope they have a terrain stretch goal that includes an outhouse. There are seemingly alot of very full bladders on offer in the set!
It's looking like a straight up pre-order: no stretch goals at all. It's also a bit pricey... (but the base game does come with a lot of stuff... and there's a box-o-extras thrown in. This will be a shelf hog)
But it does look like a version of Zombicide that I would like a lot... So I'm in!
In my case, only about a half dozen figs interest me so it's a pass since I don't have any intention of playing the game itself.
Distinct is correct, I can see how people can love his art, I definitively do not. I was hoping I'd come to appreciate it with better pictures of the figures, instead it's a solid skip for me.
I would have been all over this if it were in the regular Black Plague/Green Horde art style
This is a bit of a sales experiment for them. It's really just a Kickstarter campaign but they skip all the campaigning (and the Kickstarter, I suppose) and just show you the whole deal day one. With an expansion pack automatically added on there for you (they say free, but it's about the price you'd normally pay for the core box and one expansion in their normal campaigns).
Kind of frees people up emotionally to just buy it or don't, they don't get a campaign total to follow or worry about. No idea how popular it is.
I like Paul Bonner's artwork a lot, but I guess that doesn't translate into buying Paul Bonner Heroquest for me, I just think he's good. And I'm waiting on Dust.
Some really good minis on Paul Bonner box. I suspect none of these will be available to buy just as minis at any time. Really dont care about the game.
Have CMON shown anything Dust related? I could entertain the idea of buying more Dust if it's done in the way the initial box and addon units for the original game were done, but if they're going with the squashed up proportions of the later releases, I'll probably pass.
Have CMON shown anything Dust related? I could entertain the idea of buying more Dust if it's done in the way the initial box and addon units for the original game were done, but if they're going with the squashed up proportions of the later releases, I'll probably pass.
They have released the graphic novel with exclusive miniatures. Unfortunately it appears to be another Zombicide clone.
frankelee wrote: This is a bit of a sales experiment for them. It's really just a Kickstarter campaign but they skip all the campaigning (and the Kickstarter, I suppose) and just show you the whole deal day one. With an expansion pack automatically added on there for you (they say free, but it's about the price you'd normally pay for the core box and one expansion in their normal campaigns).
Kind of frees people up emotionally to just buy it or don't, they don't get a campaign total to follow or worry about. No idea how popular it is.
I like Paul Bonner's artwork a lot, but I guess that doesn't translate into buying Paul Bonner Heroquest for me, I just think he's good. And I'm waiting on Dust.
It is an interesting experiment. The price ($160) seems high, and is likely to put a lot of folks off, but it comes with *a lot* of content. It's just that they've avoided the psychology of "gee, look at all this free stuff they're adding" as the funding increases. And apparently they're reading the comments - they added French as a language, which wasn't available at the start of the pre-order.
It keeps on tempting me. I don't know why but I keep on feeling that these miniatures will be closer in quality to HATE than some of their other projects.
MM has another sale. The Sort is all fubar'ed up, so here are the links to each page. alphabetical. I'd like to think it's not hard to add and multiply 32.
Anyway, CMON ASOIF spotted on page 3!
Conquest mini boxes at 1/3 off or so.
Elder Scrolls, Firefight, KoW, Marvel Crisis, SW incl SW Legion
I just go through the list of company names and look at the ones likely to interest me one at a time. That's about the only way I find sale searching on MM tolerable.
That's a REALLY bad time for this to come out for me. I'm definitely gonna back it but I'm gonna have to save a crap ton of money for this and another release that month.
I'm a huge CMON fan, but I'm getting worried about the number of projects they have going.
Either they emerge in a couple years as a much larger company (feels like the number of campaigns they are running are up 50%), or the whole thing comes crashing down when they can't convince Peter to pledge to pay for Paul's project.
I think it will be the former, as CMON seems to have their finger on the pulse on what the market wants (super hero stuff!). I mean it looks like even their pre-order for the Dead Keep (Paul Bonner art/sculpts Zcide based dungeon crawler) has likely made $1MM+ dollars.
They have a large stable source of retail sales with their ASOIAF game which continues to go from strength to strength, and they just launched a skirmish version of the ASOIAF game with a $1.8MM crowdfunding campaign (so probably a $2.5MM total when all is said and done). Their massively popular Cthulhu Death May Die 2nd Kickstarter should deliver this year, leading to a bump in retail sales as more people get introduced to a top performing game.
Everything looks good from what I can see.... but I'm still getting nervous. They have many many pans in the oven.
CMON is the Juggernaught, at this point. One of the only companies I will back a KS without worry. It is 100% pre-order and marketing buzz at this point, you pay retail prices unless you go for all-ins. Your bonus for paying a year+ ahead is really just the exclusives, but they're also pretty good at delivering nearly on-time nowadays.
Thank god DC United is more chibi crap, Dead Keep had me waffling will-I-won't-I, but those hideous SD figures are an easy pass
Kalamadea wrote: CMON is the Juggernaught, at this point. One of the only companies I will back a KS without worry. It is 100% pre-order and marketing buzz at this point, you pay retail prices unless you go for all-ins. Your bonus for paying a year+ ahead is really just the exclusives, but they're also pretty good at delivering nearly on-time nowadays.
They're even trying to pick up the pieces left over from other companies' crowdfunding messes now because they don't have enough on their plate with their own projects apparently.
Kalamadea wrote: CMON is the Juggernaught, at this point. One of the only companies I will back a KS without worry. It is 100% pre-order and marketing buzz at this point, you pay retail prices unless you go for all-ins. Your bonus for paying a year+ ahead is really just the exclusives, but they're also pretty good at delivering nearly on-time nowadays.
Thank god DC United is more chibi crap, Dead Keep had me waffling will-I-won't-I, but those hideous SD figures are an easy pass
Yeah, I buy a lot of CMON stuff (they basically get 90% of my hobby budget in any given year). I don't like the SD stuff either though, so that is also an easy pass.
I think I might have waffled back into the "I'm getting this!" camp on Dead Keep.
The minis all have sculpted bases (and some might even be multi material) and there are a lot of unique sculpts for the baddies which is giving it a nice premium feel. Shipping isn't even too bad ($30) for the all in
Board Game Co guy says it is difficult to win (my favorite style of co-op game).
Plus Paul Bonner....
I think I might fail my willpower check again, despite having three outstanding projects with CMON already (Mordred, Death May Die FotU, and ASOIAF Tactics)
Glad I'm not the only one worried.
Last year I backed Zombicide White Death which should start shipping in a month or so.
And now I backed ASOIAF Tactics. I haven't even paid for shipping yet and it feels like every week I see a new project from them.
The Dead Keep, Degenesis: Clan Wars, Plague Bearer RPG, DC Heroes United, God of War: The Board Game.
Revenue - $45m more or less the same as 2022
Cost of Sales - $21.4m
Gross Profit - $23.6m
Expenses and Other Costs $22.3m
Net Profit before tax $1.3m
Revenue is comprised of
Wholesale $18.6m
Crowdfunding $26.3m
Others $0.1m
Net Assets are $19.3m including cash on hand of $3.2m.
Current Liabilities exceed Current Assets by $3.5m - but liabilities includes $6.6m in contract liabilities (outstanding KS) and $4.3m in borrowings (due within 12 months) and that won't all fall due at the same time anyway (or borrowings can be rolled over). Per the notes crowdfunding revenue is recognized on delivery so the 2023 revenue won't include KS not yet delivered (which amounts to $5.6m) but the liabilities do recognise them as an outstanding,
The company is profitable and doesn't rely as heavily on crowdfunding income as it might appear.
There also seems to be some internal changes going on, Ng Chern Ann and David Doust have had an acting in concert agreement from 2009 to date which means they vote with each other and thus are controlling shareholders, they also had a non compete agreement but as of 11 April 2024 those agreements are to end at the request of David Doust and neither will be a controlling shareholder after that date as they won't be pooling their resources. The note to the stock exchange says there's no effect on the company but there must be something behind it?
Revenue is comprised of
Wholesale $18.6m
Crowdfunding $26.3m
Others $0.1m
Net Assets are $19.3m including cash on hand of $3.2m.
Current Liabilities exceed Current Assets by $3.5m - but liabilities includes $6.6m in contract liabilities (outstanding KS) and $4.3m in borrowings (due within 12 months) and that won't all fall due at the same time anyway (or borrowings can be rolled over). Per the notes crowdfunding revenue is recognized on delivery so the 2023 revenue won't include KS not yet delivered (which amounts to $5.6m) but the liabilities do recognise them as an outstanding,
The company is profitable and doesn't rely as heavily on crowdfunding income as it might appear.
What percentage did you expect them to generate from crowdfunding out of curiosity? I figured at least half (which for me sounds like alot personally as an observer) but I do see their products at retail constantly so obviously that generates sales and factored into my own guess.
What percentage did you expect them to generate from crowdfunding out of curiosity? I figured at least half (which for me sounds like alot personally as an observer) but I do see their products at retail constantly so obviously that generates sales and factored into my own guess.
I think a lot of people think CMON revenue is like 90% KS rather than 60%. I probably would have guessed something similar to you given how popular the ASOIAF game is becoming, but I guess you can't discount the power of super hero themed games with KS exclusives.
What percentage did you expect them to generate from crowdfunding out of curiosity? I figured at least half (which for me sounds like alot personally as an observer) but I do see their products at retail constantly so obviously that generates sales and factored into my own guess.
I think a lot of people think CMON revenue is like 90% KS rather than 60%. I probably would have guessed something similar to you given how popular the ASOIAF game is becoming, but I guess you can't discount the power of super hero themed games with KS exclusives.
If I only saw their products being talked about in relation to their kickstarters' massive successes in niche hobby formats like here and they then only sold them through their own online store or if FLGS's had to order direct through them as just a manufacturer selling direct, then I'd probably have guessed 90% as well. I'd put most of the other KS minis and board games in that category frankly. Knowing they're a massive (for this hobby) distributor themselves with dozens of products that hundreds to thousands of FLGS want to stock as well as seeing a limited selection of their more mass market friendly products on sale at big box/chain stores, I figured around 50% as a safe bet.
Gallahad wrote: I'm surprised Degenisis Clan Wars isn't doing better. The design work looks super slick and the art is incredible.
If I had the money I'd be pretty tempted.
Any theories as to why it isn't performing better?
Too many open projects still to be delivered? At minimum $100 per project, and what has it been, 5-6 projects opened in the past 6 months? And several from 2-3 years ago still to be fulfilled.
There comes a point where your target audience becomes saturated with products and either doesn’t want or need any more, or the customers funds are being stretched too thin.
I assume the reason CMON went to Gamefound was the ability to have more than 5 open projects.
KS won’t let them run more campaigns the 5 AFAIK.
I personally have way too many games with minis. It will take a lot to get me to buy another one.
I assume I’m not alone in that?
Gallahad wrote: I'm surprised Degenisis Clan Wars isn't doing better. The design work looks super slick and the art is incredible.
If I had the money I'd be pretty tempted.
Any theories as to why it isn't performing better?
Too many open projects still to be delivered? At minimum $100 per project, and what has it been, 5-6 projects opened in the past 6 months? And several from 2-3 years ago still to be fulfilled.
There comes a point where your target audience becomes saturated with products and either doesn’t want or need any more, or the customers funds are being stretched too thin.
I assume the reason CMON went to Gamefound was the ability to have more than 5 open projects.
KS won’t let them run more campaigns the 5 AFAIK.
I personally have way too many games with minis. It will take a lot to get me to buy another one.
I assume I’m not alone in that?
Yeah, that is a good point. I'm out of money after backing ASOIAF Tactics and Dead Keep.
Still waiting on Death May Die to deliver... and Mordred (probably a mistake to back that one)
On the subject of too many projects they've also announced the preorder for Dune: War for Arrakis in June. Plaguebearer is scheduled for June, DC United is scheduled for July. CMON already have 9 Gamefound projects - https://gamefound.com/en/creators/cmon While their last few projects were successful I don't think they raised what they used to in funding, could be a number of reasons, but in part they are probably drawing from the same backer base who only have so much money available to pledge. Plus at what point does having to many outstanding projects become an issue?
Gallahad wrote: I'm surprised Degenisis Clan Wars isn't doing better. The design work looks super slick and the art is incredible.
If I had the money I'd be pretty tempted.
Any theories as to why it isn't performing better?
Too many open projects still to be delivered? At minimum $100 per project, and what has it been, 5-6 projects opened in the past 6 months? And several from 2-3 years ago still to be fulfilled.
There comes a point where your target audience becomes saturated with products and either doesn’t want or need any more, or the customers funds are being stretched too thin.
I assume the reason CMON went to Gamefound was the ability to have more than 5 open projects.
KS won’t let them run more campaigns the 5 AFAIK.
I personally have way too many games with minis. It will take a lot to get me to buy another one.
I assume I’m not alone in that?
Yeah, that is a good point. I'm out of money after backing ASOIAF Tactics and Dead Keep.
Still waiting on Death May Die to deliver... and Mordred (probably a mistake to back that one)
Gallahad wrote: I'm surprised Degenisis Clan Wars isn't doing better. The design work looks super slick and the art is incredible.
If I had the money I'd be pretty tempted.
Any theories as to why it isn't performing better?
Well, it seems to fit into the HATE niche, and while the minis look slick and I love the terrain, I already have HATE, Dark Eden, Dark Age and Gaslands. I really don't need/want another game of that theme.
Perhaps if I was a fan of the series, it would mean a lot more to me, but as for now I just plan on buying a terrain pack at the inevitable Miniature Market clearance sale.
I'd have been interested, but the shipping on CMON projects has just priced me out (for a while now)
nowadays it's got to be retail with cheaper/free shipping even if i miss out on some of the KS extras (especially since i'm not in a position to grab everything
Like Marvel Zombies, DCeased is getting a direct to retail version in October
We are pleased to introduce this as the direct-to-retail core box for DCeased: A Zombicide Game featuring exclusive character designs and never-seen-before missions!
Coming October ‘24!
> Any theories as to why it isn't performing better?
More guess than theory here...
Too many dungeoncrawlers already out there, including CMON's Massive Darkness games. Paul Bonner is popular amongst hobbyists, but I dunno if any boardgamers really care about the artist when they buy a game. You're not getting a truckload of mini's like you do in some CMON games. And, of course, none of the "excitement" of your typical CMON crowdfunding. I'm not actually seeing a running total, either, so dunno how much of a success or failure the project is -- nor the usual excitement crowdfunding has when it makes a lot of money.
what is it going to be ? It can't be the marvel stuff as that's licenced not owned, it seems cheap for Zombicide (and would they sell that anyway as it's their banker). Could it be one or more of the IPs they own but seem to have given up on like Wrath of Kings or Dark Age (or Anystr and Hel which they recently picked up from Mythic)
Not sure if they own or licence dust but the promised game hasn’t appeared in the last couple years so may be an IP they are abandoning. All they have released is the graphic novel which came with some models and game cards for unreleased game which appeared to be a simple reskin of Zombicide.
Massive Darkness, Cthulhu Death May Die, Arcadia Quest, were all moderately successful
Blood Rage, Ankh, Rising Sun again moderately successful and good games but i don't see them as marketable IPs they're more loved for Adrian Smiths (the designer) name/talents
Rum & Bones, Xenoshyft fairly minor
Hate (? not sure it this is owned or licenced),
and it wouldn't surprise me if there are more IPs they've picked up but not used like the ones the got from Mythic
Big Changes at CMON Looks like there are big changes coming to CMON, according to notices posted to the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, where the company’s shares are traded. The big news is that CMON has entered into a non-binding Memorandum of Understanding to sell some of the company's intellectual properties for $12 million, a considerable chunk. The company is seeking to enter into a definitive agreement by the end of October.
A second announcement reveals that Chief Operating Officer David Preti, who’s been COO since 2019 and with the company since 2016, will be resigning that role effective in March 2025. Preti had also been an executive Director of the company; that role is changing immediately to non-executive Director, for which he has a three-year contract.
While I'd love for it to include Dark Age and Wrath of Kings, that asking price seems a bit steep for...just about anything/everything that it could be?
Thought the wording of the news certainly makes it seem like it's for sure happening?
So maybe it really will be for all of the non-licensed properties?
Yeah, I gotta say, this is the straw that broke this fan's back. Despite Death May Die Fear of the Unknown being in retail for a month+ they haven't even booked the containers for backers rewards here in the USA, and they are already marketing the next one!
I'm a huge fan of CMON games. All my favorite games are produced by them. I spend absurd amounts of money on their products. I doubled up on a CDMD: Fear of The Unknown because the sculpts are so perfect for me. I have nearly $1k of outstanding product from Kickstarters I'm expecting from them.
As it’s a preview it could still be a few months before it goes live so they any be waiting for the last KS to deliver.
The Godzilla old one looks to be the same promo model from this years cons so is no where near as big as the models base suggests. More in line with a regular boss model.
If this means mere mortals can get the SDCC exclusive Godzilla without paying Ebay scammers $250+ then I am at least interested...
That said CMoNs "More is more" design mentality gets really old. Even their best games just get soooooooo overdone that at some point I just check out. Marvel United is a perfect example of reaching a saturation point where it just isn't possible to play all 300+ characters etc.
It really depends on the ip. As a guy with many bookcases of Marvel Omnibus books I can say there are still characters and character variants I would want in another season. As a huge HP Lovecraft fan who has read all of the material, many of the Lovecraft Circle writers, add played a lot of Call of Cthulhu I don’t think that Mountains of Madness needed anything besides a tile set. Maybe heroes in winter clothes miniatures if you wanted to get crazy. I don’t know what news gods or monsters are left? It seems like they would really be scraping the barrel on a third campaign.
They also announced Marvel Invasions not much details yet though it looks like it could be along the lines of the Zombicide games but there is no Zc branding.
This is actually the Marvel game I was clamoring for the in the first place. I’ve been saying since Marvel Zombicide that the basic Zombicide style game play would fit a lot of Marvel bad guys perfectly. Secret Invasion is perfect you can have Skrulls trying to replace bystanders and Superskrull versions of heroes as the abominations. I think it might be good to add a horde controller villain like the necromancer in black plague as well. Soooooo many other things I hope they do: Inferno vs demons lead by goblin queen and Mr Sinister, brood, Ultron leading his drones, Thanos with hordes of outriders, Hydra, AIM, Annihilus with his Annihilation Wave. Also super amped we are getting classic costumes this time around. I’m almost hyperventilating this is my dream project. Hopefully we get Marvel Zombicide crossover cards. If the game is good AND it gets me tons more new Marvel characters or classic looks to add on to the Zombicide collection for use in Marvel RPG this will be my campaign of the year.
From the ASOIAF Tactics (i.e. GOT skirmish) campaign...
"While our original delivery estimate was February 2025, the complexity and ambition of this project have led to adjustments. We are now targeting a delivery around Q3 2025 to ensure the final product meets the standards you expect and deserve."
The current MD campaign is sluggish to say the least. It's so lackluster, that me, the biggest fan of Massive Darkness in the world, is considering dropping my pledge and just waiting for retail.
Ghool wrote: The current MD campaign is sluggish to say the least. It's so lackluster, that me, the biggest fan of Massive Darkness in the world, is considering dropping my pledge and just waiting for retail.
That's how badly they're running the campaign.
That's quite surprising. I'm still incredibly salty at CMON for doing the dirty on Dark Age so haven't followed them closely since then, but my impression was they gave up their own minis IPs to focus on massive crowd funding projects. So that they are ballsing that up too is a bit sad I suppose.
I'm likewise a salty fan fed up with their awful crowd-funding. My FLGS had Death May Die Season 3/4 and Marvel United Multiverse for MONTHS before they fulfilled pledges, and in both cases they were running the game system's NEXT campaign before delivering said pledges.
CMoN can piss off, and the volume of content for all three systems is literally more than most gamers can already consume in a lifetime.
CMON owes me too much stuff for me to consider backing anything else. They have always delivered eventually, but it is feeling increasingly risky to back their campaigns as timelines continue to expand and expand. as
What's crazy is that I only back one project from any company at one time.
I'm not waiting for anything from CMON.
Only things I'm waiting for on GF/KS is a Medieval Spawn action figure, Terrorscape board game, and D&L Lazers Caves.
I cleared up monetary space for this MD campaign and they're phoning it in so bad. It's half way through and we've had one over-priced campaign expansion. And then a stretch goal with an $80k gap with a clear dice add-on to drive that.
It took 3 days to reach the last SG.
That's unheard of for CMON, and why I'm considering dropping out. I have enough MD, although the new classes are kind of cool.
I'm guessing this is why they're selling their IPs and using Gamefound. Ninja Division crashed because they went a little over their head and now we're seeing the same thing happen to CMON.
Zombicide, United: continue supporting them. For Zombicide, switch between 2 and Fantasy(moneymakers of the series) with at least one or two crossovers. For United, switch between DC and Marvel.
ASoIaF: focus more on gameplay with one or two new units seasonally, and have a plan for HotD. At least do more with tourney support.
Cthulhu: Slow. Down. End. The. Series.
Arcadia: it's dead. Sell Spaghetti Western.
Gamefound: Stop. Cancel every single project. Take a deep breath, count to 10, realise youre making a mistake and close your Gamefound and Kickstarter accounts.
Those are my suggestions, but knowing their solution is another crowdfunding project... I wonder if anyone bought B-sieged, Kaosball, or Wrath of Kings yet?
Even I finally got burnet out by KS fatigue, the only CMON KS I'm waiting for is White Death which should ship pretty soon, I cancelled everything else and got refunded. I kind of regret cancelling DCeased, but I'll pick it up retail or get the exclusives off Games Steward when it finally releases. I don't regret cancelling ASoIaF skirmish, if thats any good then I'll grab that at retail. Mostly I just want a few of the sculpts for other projects.
Haven't seen any news about if, but the Metal Gear Solid board game finally released a few weeks ago. Worth it for the minis alone, but apparently the gameplay is pretty good based on reviews
parakuribo wrote: I'm guessing this is why they're selling their IPs and using Gamefound. Ninja Division crashed because they went a little over their head and now we're seeing the same thing happen to CMON.
Zombicide, United: continue supporting them. For Zombicide, switch between 2 and Fantasy(moneymakers of the series) with at least one or two crossovers. For United, switch between DC and Marvel.
ASoIaF: focus more on gameplay with one or two new units seasonally, and have a plan for HotD. At least do more with tourney support.
Cthulhu: Slow. Down. End. The. Series.
Arcadia: it's dead. Sell Spaghetti Western.
Gamefound: Stop. Cancel every single project. Take a deep breath, count to 10, realise youre making a mistake and close your Gamefound and Kickstarter accounts.
Those are my suggestions, but knowing their solution is another crowdfunding project... I wonder if anyone bought B-sieged, Kaosball, or Wrath of Kings yet?
I have everything for Kaosball back when the KS ran.
It’s actually really good game.
parakuribo wrote: I'm guessing this is why they're selling their IPs and using Gamefound. Ninja Division crashed because they went a little over their head and now we're seeing the same thing happen to CMON.
Pretty much any non-licenced game that is not Zombicide, MD, or Cthulhu
Thanks for the clarification! Does that include the games that they're still waiting to fulfill existing funded campaigns? Hopefully it's not contributing to consternation from backers.
I'm really worried about the future of CMON. Seems like every month they launch a new campaign. So far they do seem to fulfill every time but with a minimum 6 months delay.
Maybe just one project had a delay and now it has pushed everything back.
Still even if everything runs completely smooth inside CMON with the development of the games I imagine they have a bottleneck in the Chinese factory producing all these minis.
This model of crowdfunding multiple games before you fulfill the first one doesn't seem too sustainable.
Ghool wrote: I have everything for Kaosball back when the KS ran.
It’s actually really good game.
Kaosball is crazy fun. My buddy has the entire set and we play a league every so often.
But really, Dark Age needs a solid home and some love. I have A LOT of Dark Age, and while it still sees play here and there the player base near me is decreasing rapidly.
Dark Age and WoK stopped because they most likely wanted a family friendly image. That may be also why they had a very, very short agreement with Ankama(which didabsolutely nothing save for permanently damaging Krosmaster in the US).
CMON cranking out campaigns does make one worry, since you don't really know the true financial situation of these companies that well, on the other hand it's also want a company seeking the most profit would do. They're not in business to make one Kickstarter game at a time, they're in business to make the maximum amount of money they can, and if a crowdfunding website allows them to open more campaigns and make more money, then it is going to be their natural conclusion that they should do that.
I think MD3 is "okay," and I do think there's a very real possibility that their 'more is more' approach will be a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure for those who are concerned about them. MD3 is clearly them having to reach further down the barrel to find ideas, and the expansions are expensive, it's not a surprise that it doesn't look on pace to match MD2. I think it's only natural that they're going to have less individual campaign success moving to Gamefound over Kickstarter, and cranking out releases more often over spacing them out and allowing their fanbase time to budget them. And it could be they're trading in going 1-2 million over production costs in revenue every two months on Kickstarter for going 500k over production costs twice a month on Gamefound, and if the market cools and it becomes 100k over productions costs twice a month, then they'll get into trouble. But who knows.
This was nice to see. Hopefully if everything goes smoothly and there isn't another predictable delay from China, I should have everything I've backed from them by the end of this year.
If I even seen half of the stuff I've backed THIS YEAR i'll be surprised.
That's a really helpful frankengraphic that they have for backers on their update. It also shows just how much work they still have ahead of them on ten different million dollar projects!
frankelee wrote: CMON cranking out campaigns does make one worry, since you don't really know the true financial situation of these companies that well, on the other hand it's also want a company seeking the most profit would do. They're not in business to make one Kickstarter game at a time, they're in business to make the maximum amount of money they can, and if a crowdfunding website allows them to open more campaigns and make more money, then it is going to be their natural conclusion that they should do that.
I think MD3 is "okay," and I do think there's a very real possibility that their 'more is more' approach will be a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure for those who are concerned about them. MD3 is clearly them having to reach further down the barrel to find ideas, and the expansions are expensive, it's not a surprise that it doesn't look on pace to match MD2. I think it's only natural that they're going to have less individual campaign success moving to Gamefound over Kickstarter, and cranking out releases more often over spacing them out and allowing their fanbase time to budget them. And it could be they're trading in going 1-2 million over production costs in revenue every two months on Kickstarter for going 500k over production costs twice a month on Gamefound, and if the market cools and it becomes 100k over productions costs twice a month, then they'll get into trouble. But who knows.
Unless I am missing something.
2024 financials - up to June 24 - show a decrease in revenue across the board and a headline Profit after tax of $175K on revenue of $15m
That doesn’t appear healthy on its own.
Deeper in their own reporting CMON state that they will continue selling via crowd funding and are looking to open up more in Asia BUT revenues are down across retail (KS) and wholesale.
Reminds me of Multiversus and Suicide Squad: both live games that are bleeding money, and at one point WB's solution is to... (checks notes)...focus solely on live games because(checks more notes) they're the company's biggest sellers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's face it: until Zombicide and Arcadia Quest, they focused mainly on some of the finest miniatures. Zombicide is very cool, and I respect Arcadia. However, they began to churn out more and more KS projects with more exclusive expansions while thegames they make for retail are literally one and done.
I always thought they would reach a point where their house of cards would fall if they don't get things under control and unfortunately I can see someone set it on fire soon; either this year or the next
If you're not discriminate I've found cheaper retail prices for miniatures for CMON and other companies than their original crowdfunding. Archon is still less expensive through crowdfunding than retail, and have a GameFound campaign for their pirate-themed ship and miniatures on April 1st.
I'm on the fence with MD3. Not as many mini's as MD1, possibly b/c CMON is concerned about tariffs. Still haven't even played most of my CMON games, although the MD1 mini's are *great* for enemies that have elite units and ranged ones!
Technically a CMON property though they don't appear to be directly involved, but Big Child Creatives and Adrian Smith have announced an STL campaign for HATE
"Forged in the crucible of battle, the warriors of Hate have returned to defy destiny. We keep the models that once made your rivals tremble and have forged new versions of the most legendary fighters"
The pre-campaign sign-up bonus is the same Rash'Nar Mercenary model offered as part of the CMON Comics Vol. 2 promo, with the campaign proper to offer "over 70 STL files". By my count there were 98 unique sculpts made for HATE, including the two massive characters for the aforementioned comic promo, so it'll be interesting to see what has been resculpted and what has been cut.
Very limited information on the page, and the community Discord server says nothing else, but in comment replies on Instagram, BCC have indicated that the peripheral content such as cards, tokens, fields and dice will all be included for people to play the game, with Adrian Smith himself saying "there's lots planned", although physical miniatures are off the table for the foreseeable future. Unclear if there's any new content in the pipeline, I'd guess all of the work they've done so far and hope to continue in the campaign is focused on reviving the board game to an actually supported product, with a few larger resculpts to entice back owners of the original.
Hopefully a proper newsletter announcement will follow shortly to provide actual concrete information so you don't have to rely on my speculation pieced together from social media interactions.
I've not heard anything to suggest that Adrian Smith has parted ways with CMON as lead artist or if he's privately taken back control of his IP, so this seems to be the correct place for this post, but if anyone can confirm otherwise, then it might warrant a separate thread once more (any, really) information comes out.
Cool! It's a little too Chaosy Northern Tribes of the Frozen Wastes for me personally but I'm a fan of his art from back in the Leviathan days and the sculpts are nice. I actually just picked up a couple figs (technically just wanted one but they were sold as a group of four) from the similar primal but not chaos barbarian Blood Rage game.
I am excited about the HATE crowdfunding. I almost pulled the trigger years ago but skipped it for some reason. If it has all the KS exclusives in it then I will definitely back it and be printing for a long time.
Played Massive Darkness 2 a couple weeks ago. We are considering playing a campaign. By the end of the game my berserker was so kitted out it was stupid.
Good on BCC for doing this. Unfortunately, it's going to out off some fans especially those without a way to print. I do think, however, this is a much better option than how CMON handled it.
HATE has really great miniatures and design work. Adrian is an absolute genius at creating groups of miniatures that share same design language so they clearly belong to the same tribe etc. without being hamfisted about it like GW frequently are ("Look, they all have matching belt buckles with the warband insignia!")
I've really enjoyed painting up the giants (and others) from HATE.
I don't have a resin printer, but I'd like several of the sculpts scaled up a bit, so I look forward to buying some from somebody at some point.
I wish they would do an alternate sculpt or two. The Tribe of Sarrassa are absolutely incredibly and I would love more plant zombie guys to add to my band.
I managed to pick up a cheap copy of HATE for the minis (turns out the box had a duplicated set of the tribesmen, and was missing the second set - but CMON sent me a replacement - so extra minis!) and they're absolutely excellent
Nice to see they'll get to come back into circulation.
Hello The Hate universe is back, and the IP belongs exclusively to Adrian Smith, who is now collaborating with Big Child Creatives. CMON has granted us the rights to relaunch the project in digital format as a way to support the project and the community. However, since they are no longer involved in the management, they have requested that their logo not be included.
To answer your question—yes, it’s a continuation! We are bringing back all the miniatures and accessories, with some adjustments to ensure both veteran players and newcomers can fully enjoy the digital format.
Very pleased to hear it's back under Adrian's control. I understand the original decision to not support it into retail, especially seeing how physically large the game became, but it must have felt a bit of a shame that all that work was just one and done
Given the news though, as far as thread relevancy, I'd suppose everything there is to be said about it is currently apropos the CMON product, so I'll wait until the campaign is underway to make a new thread
The planned disposal of some of CMONs IPs is not going ahead.
The Company would like to update potential investors and the shareholders of the
Company that the Disposal will not proceed as the parties are not being able to agree on
the terms of the Disposal and sign a definitive agreement. The Company has already
informed the other party in respect of the termination of the Disposal in accordance with
the terms of the MOU. Accordingly, no intellectual properties of the Group will be
disposed of.
DaveC wrote: The planned disposal of some of CMONs IPs is not going ahead.
The Company would like to update potential investors and the shareholders of the
Company that the Disposal will not proceed as the parties are not being able to agree on
the terms of the Disposal and sign a definitive agreement. The Company has already
informed the other party in respect of the termination of the Disposal in accordance with
the terms of the MOU. Accordingly, no intellectual properties of the Group will be
disposed of.
The cynic in me thinks that CMoN perceived a value for their IP’s that didn’t meet with reality.
Were they really calling it a "disposal"? Is that an accepted term in corporate finance? Because from this outsider's perspective looking in, it's kind of funny given the circumstances...
warboss wrote: Were they really calling it a "disposal"? Is that an accepted term in corporate finance? Because from this outsider's perspective looking in, it's kind of funny given the circumstances...
Nothing against CMON or their IPs, but that sounded like a lot of money. In the same spirit as the saying, 'the best way to make a small fortune from owning a baseball is to start with a large fortune and buy a baseball team,' like how would any IP in tabletop gaming that isn't Warhammer related be worth $12,000,000? Most of those IPs would just cause you to lose money trying to make a successful game out of them. I guess I don't know what was all in the package deal, but for IPs there's just no way.
frankelee wrote: Nothing against CMON or their IPs, but that sounded like a lot of money. In the same spirit as the saying, 'the best way to make a small fortune from owning a baseball is to start with a large fortune and buy a baseball team,' like how would any IP in tabletop gaming that isn't Warhammer related be worth $12,000,000? Most of those IPs would just cause you to lose money trying to make a successful game out of them. I guess I don't know what was all in the package deal, but for IPs there's just no way.
Curious so I looked at wikipeida for some crowdfunding numbers of IP they own that could be part of this (with some rounding and not accounting for inflation):
Rising Sun: 4 million raised Ankh 3.3 million raised Arcadia quest about 3 million from several campaigns Trudvang 1.5 million raised (didn't own at first, bought and then did nothing with the IP as they seam to have completely dropped continuing the RPG game) The Others 1.5 million raised Smog 1.3 million from multiple campaigns sedition wars 950k (I think they bought this from Mcvey or bought studio McVey) Starcadia 900k Rum and Bones 1.6 million from multiple campaigns Blood rage 900k (though there was a second ks for a videogame and alternate versions of exclusives that I don't see listed) Wrath of kings 700k Project: Elite 600k B-Sieged 550k xenoshyft 600k from multiple campaigns kaosball 350k
that's about 14.5 million since around 2012 not including inflation. If they're just looking at what they raised as justification for cost 12million is possible but are any of those really worth those numbers anymore? I know Ank, Blood Rage and Rising Sun have had legs in retail from that list but I nothing else really did and I don't think those three have been mentioned as IPs they're looking to sell.
frankelee wrote: Nothing against CMON or their IPs, but that sounded like a lot of money. In the same spirit as the saying, 'the best way to make a small fortune from owning a baseball is to start with a large fortune and buy a baseball team,' like how would any IP in tabletop gaming that isn't Warhammer related be worth $12,000,000? Most of those IPs would just cause you to lose money trying to make a successful game out of them. I guess I don't know what was all in the package deal, but for IPs there's just no way.
Curious so I looked at wikipeida for some crowdfunding numbers of IP they own that could be part of this (with some rounding and not accounting for inflation):
Rising Sun: 4 million raised
Ankh 3.3 million raised
Arcadia quest about 3 million from several campaigns
Trudvang 1.5 million raised (didn't own at first, bought and then did nothing with the IP as they seam to have completely dropped continuing the RPG game)
The Others 1.5 million raised
Smog 1.3 million from multiple campaigns
sedition wars 950k (I think they bought this from Mcvey or bought studio McVey)
Starcadia 900k
Rum and Bones 1.6 million from multiple campaigns
Blood rage 900k (though there was a second ks for a videogame and alternate versions of exclusives that I don't see listed)
Wrath of kings 700k
Project: Elite 600k
B-Sieged 550k
xenoshyft 600k from multiple campaigns
kaosball 350k
that's about 14.5 million since around 2012 not including inflation. If they're just looking at what they raised as justification for cost 12million is possible but are any of those really worth those numbers anymore? I know Ank, Blood Rage and Rising Sun have had legs in retail from that list but I nothing else really did and I don't think those three have been mentioned as IPs they're looking to sell.
CMoN have gotten what they could out of these via crowd funding. Is there anything of value in these IPs for further campaigns?
CMoN are concentrating on other IP. It would be conjecture to suggest that have milked them for all they had……
The community have had what they wanted out of their KS contributions. And there is little to no recognition outside of that group.They are hardly ‘evergreen’.
Buyers such as Embracer are quiet. Other investors have seen acquisitions for a family of brands slow to nothing. Big media are not interested…
They could easily run big campaigns for several of those in my opinion, but not all.
On some of them my impression is that they locked all the fun stuff in KS exclusives, so the base retail game was hurt. Some of them are just bad games.
I know that even a simple reprint campaign for Project Elite would bring in big money based on 2nd hand prices for some of the expansions.
As an aside, if you guys get a chance to play Project Elite you should. Very fun and very unique experience.
I think a reprint of Blood Rage would do well again. Nice add-ons like thicker cardboard clan sheets, more alternative monsters, mousepad game board, etc. would be popular
I appreciate that buying the IP may come with more than just the name and ideas, it could include sculpts and already made gaming materials and so on, but even so that math wouldn't make any sense. I'm not sure what the ideal percentage cost an IP should be over a decade of related revenue, but I can't imagine many MBAs would want to spend over 5%, certainly not nearly 85%. And then, as pointed out, now they're dead brands that would have to be revived to a consumer group that already rejected them.
Trudvang and Blood Rage might be worth five figures, the rest of those aren't worth more than four figures each. I don't know what else was in the attempted deal, but as the numbers Monkeysloth compiled show, this is waaaaaay too small of an industry for splashing millions to take over an IP. You can make up your own IPs, you can steal rules, you can commission your own artists to make crappy CMON style digital speed paintings.
The board (the ‘‘Board’’) of directors (the ‘‘Directors’’) of the Company wishes to inform the shareholders of the Company (the ‘‘Shareholders’’) and potential investors that based on the preliminary review of the unaudited management accounts of the Group for the year ended 31 December 2024, it is expected that there will be a loss attributable to equity holders of the Company for the year ended 31 December 2024 as compared to a profit attributable to equity holders of the Company of approximately US$0.8 million for the year ended 31 December 2023. The loss attributable to equity holders of the Company for the year ended 31 December 2024 is estimated to be within the range of US$1.4 million to US$2.1 million. Such a change was mainly due to a drop in revenue as sales of tabletop games fell due to the increase in cost of living in key markets like North America and Europe.
The 2024 annual results were due to be submitted today but CMON have advised that they are not in a position to submit them yet due to the financial department being understaffed. It's likely that trading in CMON shares will be suspended tomorrow as a result of the failure to submit the annual accounts.
They also issued $1.25m in subscriber shares last year for which they have not yet received the funds and these may have to be canceled - looks like the subscribers got cold feet on their investment.
I wouldn't be surprised if the loss is at the high end of the $2.1m estimate or more. No wonder they are running so many crowdfunders/preorders - I'd be concerned now about them - their viability as a going concern was already in question last year when they made a profit - now they are in a loss, they are struggling to get investment and they can't sell their IP which they appear to be overvaluing.
the IP sale not happening (although whether they really thought it would happen at those prices or whether it was a tactic to placate shareholders or maybe grab some investment i'm not sure)
Tariffs in the USA means lower sales (and/or more expense if they cover some of the costs to maintain sales)
Asmodee keeping dropping the ball on distribution has got to be hurting sales (was dumping their warehouse really the best idea)
Unpaid subscriber shares will really hurt them as it makes them look (very) undesirable, especially if they didn't have insurance via a financial institution to buy them up if the offer failed
I guess we have to keep our finger crossed for backers of all those outstanding KS
Alpharius wrote: Massive Darkness 3 and DC United for me are pending - "only" 2 projects but went pretty heavy on both...
I feel you. Still waiting on White Death and ASOIAF: Tactics, and DCeased and DC United all also projects I went all in on.
I'm definitely not backing anything by them until I get all the stuff I'm owed but I'm probably tapped out for good and will just pick up retail stuff should anything come out that I want.
Waiting on White Death which at least is shipping and DCeased. With the current state of affairs I wouldn't be putting more than a $1 wait and see pledge on anything else - and there's the problem the more news like this comes out the less likely people are to back the more likely they are to have further money issues.
I have an all in for MD3 and that’s all I’m willing to risk. I thought about the Adventurers preorder but backed off because of this news. I have the original games so that one was easy.
They need to start getting these things completed and shipped. But when Clash for Eternia, which is just a translation and reprint gets pushed back a year past delivery, it really starts to make me wonder.
Fingers crossed for all of us invested in their games.
Things are not looking good for CMON for a while now.... That didn't stop me from backing 3 projects though...
White Death has started shipping so I don't really worry about this.
For ASOIAF Tactics I still hope it will be completed because it's kinda high on the list but I expect at least one year delay.
DC United is the one still getting regular updates but it's also the one i worry the most that I will not get...
I definitely don't expect to get all 3 in 2025. And I don't think I will back another CMON project soon. At least not until I get 2 out the 3 projects I have already backed.
warboss wrote: I hope this doesn't bring a new wave* of crowdfunding defaults. Cmon was pretty much the come back kid story with an almost perfect record so far.
*if you know then you know and I see some fellow forum old farts who probably do.
This right here. Here's hoping they can make good on their campaigns.
They came back from a similar sized loss in 2020, and I feel they have a lot of valuable assets they could run sales on to shore up cash flow if needed, but I'd still be very careful backing anything going forward until they start delivering on more projects.
ASOIAF Tactics will hopefully help add another lucrative line of retail sales, like ASOIAF: The Miniatures Game. I think with more effort at community management they could easily grow ASOIAF TMG by double digits. It is a really really great game with regular retail releases, a huge catalog, an excellent IP, a strong indie community, and basically zero community effort or marketing from CMON.
I think they will be fine in the long run, but it is likely to be some rocky years. I won't be backing more until they deliver more of my outstanding projects, but I'll still buy nearly everything they put out for ASOIAF at retail.
Haven't been paying attention, but BoardGameGeek should have the latest on Asmodee and investors. Vaguely recall that the investors were from Saudi Arabia and/or Asmodee was seeking to sell of its gaming investments.
I regularly see CMON at retail, and it has partnered with SPIN games, whoever they are. IMO, That's better than some companies that only use KS for their expensive high-end games.
MD3 didn't have enough mini's for me, and I haven't been interested in their KS since White Death. Bought some Marvel United and Marvel Zombicide retail, though.
That Saudi Asmodee deal fell through, and now it is saddled with billions in debt.
I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t get downsized and sold off in a few years.
As expected trading in CMON shares has been suspended although at the request of CMON - probably jumped before pushed looks better if they do it themselves.
TRADING SUSPENSION
Reference is made to the announcement of CMON Limited (the ‘‘Company’’) dated 25 March 2025 regarding, among other things, the delay in publication of its annual results announcement for the year ended 31 December 2024 (the ‘‘Announcement’’). For the reasons set out in the Announcement and at the request of the Company, trading in the shares of the Company on The Stock Exchange of Hong Kong Limited was suspended at 9:00 a.m. on Tuesday, 1 April 2025, pending the publication of the Company’s annual results announcement for the year ended 31 December 2024.
Ghool wrote: That Saudi Asmodee deal fell through, and now it is saddled with billions in debt.
I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t get downsized and sold off in a few years.
You're confusing Asmodee and the parent company Embracer. Embracer purchased Asmodee a few years ago, then ran into difficulty when the Saudi investment feel through. They just spun Asmodee off as an independent company on the Swedish stock market. Asmodee took a share of the parent company's debt with it as part of the spin-off but it's effectively an independent public company again, solely concerned with tabletop games.
Ghool wrote: That Saudi Asmodee deal fell through, and now it is saddled with billions in debt.
I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t get downsized and sold off in a few years.
You're confusing Asmodee and the parent company Embracer. Embracer purchased Asmodee a few years ago, then ran into difficulty when the Saudi investment feel through. They just spun Asmodee off as an independent company on the Swedish stock market. Asmodee took a share of the parent company's debt with it as part of the spin-off but it's effectively an independent public company again, solely concerned with tabletop games.
The newest Saints Row became a monthly game on PS+ the same day Volition shut down. On opposite ends are Crystal Dynamics(Tomb Raider, Gex and Legacy of Kain collections) and Saber(Space Marine II); they're both lucky so far but it could take one slip up to give everyone the axe as well(in Saber's case, it depends on their Hasbro project). Sadly it could be safe to say that all of Asmodee's branches can be pruned as well(with CMON first, don't know about AMG though).
Sad thing: I told people that Star Wars Unlimited could have been dropped because of Embracer's problems, but they laughed at me for it....
Well Asmodee doesn't own CMON, they just distribute their games in the US, but even if Asmodee goes under I'm sure other game distribution companies would jump into the void.
You should still be careful pre-ordering from CMON, but for reasons other than Asmodee connection.
Ghool wrote: That Saudi Asmodee deal fell through, and now it is saddled with billions in debt.
I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t get downsized and sold off in a few years.
You're confusing Asmodee and the parent company Embracer. Embracer purchased Asmodee a few years ago, then ran into difficulty when the Saudi investment feel through. They just spun Asmodee off as an independent company on the Swedish stock market. Asmodee took a share of the parent company's debt with it as part of the spin-off but it's effectively an independent public company again, solely concerned with tabletop games.
warboss wrote: I hope this doesn't bring a new wave* of crowdfunding defaults. Cmon was pretty much the come back kid story with an almost perfect record so far.
*if you know then you know and I see some fellow forum old farts who probably do.
ced1106 wrote: Haven't been paying attention, but BoardGameGeek should have the latest on Asmodee and investors. Vaguely recall that the investors were from Saudi Arabia and/or Asmodee was seeking to sell of its gaming investments.
I regularly see CMON at retail, and it has partnered with SPIN games, whoever they are. IMO, That's better than some companies that only use KS for their expensive high-end games.
MD3 didn't have enough mini's for me, and I haven't been interested in their KS since White Death. Bought some Marvel United and Marvel Zombicide retail, though.
Yeah the gaming community doesn't seem to be very aware of Spinmaster. They are actually a much larger company than CMON, valued around $3 billion. They are a toy company that makes childrens toys for big box stores like Walmart from really big brands like Batman and Paw Patrol. It seems like they have a license to make Marvel and DC games and are outsourcing those to CMON as like a tiny niche developer. For that reason, I would think the DC/Marvel projects might be a little safer. It's funny gamer people are always like "whats a Spinmaster?" but I'm pretty sure they have more reach than CMON.
warboss wrote: I hope this doesn't bring a new wave* of crowdfunding defaults. Cmon was pretty much the come back kid story with an almost perfect record so far.
*if you know then you know and I see some fellow forum old farts who probably do.
ced1106 wrote: Haven't been paying attention, but BoardGameGeek should have the latest on Asmodee and investors. Vaguely recall that the investors were from Saudi Arabia and/or Asmodee was seeking to sell of its gaming investments.
I regularly see CMON at retail, and it has partnered with SPIN games, whoever they are. IMO, That's better than some companies that only use KS for their expensive high-end games.
MD3 didn't have enough mini's for me, and I haven't been interested in their KS since White Death. Bought some Marvel United and Marvel Zombicide retail, though.
Yeah the gaming community doesn't seem to be very aware of Spinmaster. They are actually a much larger company than CMON, valued around $3 billion. They are a toy company that makes childrens toys for big box stores like Walmart from really big brands like Batman and Paw Patrol. It seems like they have a license to make Marvel and DC games and are outsourcing those to CMON as like a tiny niche developer. For that reason, I would think the DC/Marvel projects might be a little safer. It's funny gamer people are always like "whats a Spinmaster?" but I'm pretty sure they have more reach than CMON.
The first time I saw the SPIN logo on a Marvel United box I thought to myself "Spinmaster makes niche board games?"
warboss wrote: I hope this doesn't bring a new wave* of crowdfunding defaults. Cmon was pretty much the come back kid story with an almost perfect record so far.
*if you know then you know and I see some fellow forum old farts who probably do.
Surprised people still remember new wave.
They still owe me over $100 worth of stuff....I do not forget....Where are my glasses?
Look on the bright side... At least you likely got the 40% off discount with that huge sale they had right before they folded and then didn't deliver on due to bankruptcy. If you ever get anything, it'll be at great discount if you don't consider inflation!
I just barely missed out on doing a big order but couldn't justify another one with my student loans when every time I opened my closet I saw 2000pts of unopened plastic nids staring back at me since their previous sale.
warboss wrote: Look on the bright side... At least you likely got the 40% off discount with that huge sale they had right before they folded and then didn't deliver on due to bankruptcy. If you ever get anything, it'll be at great discount if you don't consider inflation!
I just barely missed out on doing a big order but couldn't justify another one with my student loans when every time I opened my closet I saw 2000pts of unopened plastic nids staring back at me since their previous sale.
My order was a couple months before they got "Bad", and it was GW product that GW couldn't get to them, they were just waiting on the order but wouldn't refund. Then, they did the 40% off and would not offer me anything.
Oh well, I enjoyed ASOIAF and Zombicide plus a few others. I have mostly forgiven them, just get reminders every few years about it when I think about Iron Warriors and not getting my order from New Wave.
Oh well, I enjoyed ASOIAF and Zombicide plus a few others.
I wouldn't count them out just yet personally (despite me being the one to bring up their previous incarnation of sorts at least for some of the folks involved). I just wouldn't recommend doing a long term preorder/crowdfunding while things are dicey (pun intended). While I haven't played either, I do have some cool figs for both the game lines you mentioned and am glad they exist as well FWIW.
Well it sadly looks like dominos are starting to fall
Final Frontier Games is folding, and laying at least a chunk of the blame on CMON who it say owes it money for a large order (and chinese localisation) of their Merchants Grove game but hasn't paid and has cut off all communications (Final Frontier Games was also using future projects to pay for past ones since the pandemic so CMON isn't the only issue just the final nail in the coffin)
Just confirmed via their pending kickstarters merchants cove, Coloma, sixth realm etx
Dear backers,
We have devastating news to share with you about this project and the future of Final Frontier Games.
Due to the situation in the world, the tight cash flow that we’ve operated under in the past period and most importantly because of debtors from which we cannot collect money, we are forced to close down operations and thus unable to fulfill this campaign at this stage.
What led to this? CMON, who has placed a fairly large order for a Chinese localization of Merchants Cove, has not paid us and on top of that stopped replying to our emails and cut off all communication with us. We have no idea what is happening, we can only assume that the tariffs that the US government imposed on Chinese imports is having a detrimental effect.
We waited until the last day to receive the money from them, when it was possible to deliver this campaign with their funds. That day has officially passed. The fact that they haven’t replied to multiple emails sent to multiple people including to one of the owners of the company, tells us that we won’t be seeing that money any time soon. While this amount may be “peanuts” for them, it has created a cascading domino effect on us.
Because we can’t deliver this game to you, we cannot in good conscience launch our next game which was planned for next week – knowing where this is headed. Since that campaign is out of the question, the dominoes have started to fall.
We can no longer sustain keeping our employees. Tragically, we are forced to lay them off, after so many years working together. An amazing group of people with which became extremely close friends.
Fulfillment centers, who have been pretty understanding of the situation, started sending invoices for the stock we have with them. They’ll start selling the non-kickstarter stock we have with them in order to cover their expenses.
The bank has started knocking on our doors to collect the loan that we took last year.
In very short order, the little cash reserves that we had and the capital in stock in the warehouses, started leaking without any immediate income because the bank is forced to collect, so even in the extremely unlikely event that they do decide to pay tomorrow, we are afraid it might be too late.
We cannot understate the gravity of the situation and the suddenness of the fall of the company. We are emotionally devastated, sad, we are hurting, we are angry and there is a big hole in our hearts that will take a long time to overcome, if ever. Just recently we were tweaking ads for our next campaign, talking with reviewers, preparing for production on our other games, developing our future projects and entering a distribution partnership with QML, something that we had lacked for 4 years… hoping that the payment will come through.
All our dreams and hopes vanished. 10 families that put food on the table through Final Frontier Games that had stable, creative and good paying jobs are now faced with extreme uncertainty with no financial stability. We are truly living in the darkest timeline.
While CMON was not the only party to blame for this unraveling it was the final nail.
We are truly sorry that we won’t be able to make good on the promise we made with you.
We will now go more in detail to what led to this situation. The original Merchants Cove campaign was delivered in the height of the pandemic. If you were backing projects back then, you remember the talk of how freight costs have risen overnight and some publishers were forced to ask for more money from backers. We decided back then to eat those costs in order to maintain your goodwill with us because we were building a lifetime relationship with you, and for that, you needed to trust us with our projects.
That extra cost has eaten all our profits that we had and then some. The freight costs that we planned were around $27.000. We had 9 containers and the price per container back then was around $3.000 dollars. By the time Merchants Cove was loaded into boats the bill we received was around $22.000 per container. Plus the last mile delivery prices spiked, meaning a planned bill of around $30k went to $250.000. We also received an order from distributors for Merchants Cove who by the time the game was produced they canceled part of their order because of the pandemic. So that $250.000 unplanned expenses quickly went north of $350.000.
That completely erased our profits, we had to dip into funds from our other projects hoping that we would recover the losses quickly.
From that moment on, while we have hundreds of thousands in stock, we had very tight cash flow reserves, were a project or two behind, but we managed to make it work for the past 5 years, delivering games and starting to build the groundwork for a full recovery of the company.
Moving forward to this campaign, Merchants Cove: Master Craft.
While we had planned accordingly for the production of the game, numerous unexpected things happened especially with the Big Box.
As you remember, tweaking the Big Box took an extremely long time. We cannot blame Game Trayz for this, they had their own issues to deal with, but the fact was that just the development of the Big Box added at least half a year to the timeline of this project, and when one projects stalls, every other projects stall, while bills are coming in and must be paid. Also we had to drastically increase the size of the Big Box which increased our production, freight and shipping costs.
Just before we started production of this project, Pegasus and TCG factory decided not to proceed with the localization of the game even though we promised German and Spanish versions of the game to you during this campaign. We cannot blame them for this, the project took too long to complete and they have to set release schedules. If a game is delayed they need to quickly fill that calendar with other projects.
And again, we were forced to make a decision. Do we continue building trust with you or share the bad news to our German and Spanish backers that they won’t be getting the games in their respective languages, but in English.
Our guiding star was that backers come first, even in situations above the company. Because there is no company without backers.
So we made the decision to do the localization version ourselves and provide our German and Spanish backers the version that they were promised to receive.
That meant, hiring and paying translators, hiring and paying editors, hiring and paying graphic designers to implement the changes. That also meant paying more to the factory for these copies compared to English ones, due to the small quantity and due to the setup costs that the factory incurs due to printing a different language game. So instead of tens of thousands in profits from these deals, we were tens of thousands in the negative because of this, plus a substantial delay because of the time needed to scramble and find people to do the translations.
Even with all these issues, we managed to pull through. We took a bank loan, we worked with the localization partners that stayed with us, production was complete and the games were starting to be loaded on boats.
For our other outstanding projects, the factory gave us a very long repayment period, basically producing those 2 projects at their expense and we repay the costs everytime the company incurs profits until the balance is settled. With a plan in place for production of those games, and the profits from the excess copies of Merchants Cove by selling it to distributors as well as the localization deals that we put in place for Coloma and The Sixth Realm, there would have been enough funds to deliver those 2 projects also. The restructuring of the company was put in motion not just to deliver what was promised to all of you, but to speed up the delivery time of our projects and focus on long term growth. We brought more work in-house, we signed 6 amazing games for the next 3 years, we were even in on-going discussions with investors who wanted to invest in the plan that we set in motion. We spent the whole of 2024 negotiating and working on the restructuring.
All of these plans came crushing when we realised that we won’t be able to collect the money we are owed. With localization partners, the terms are almost always the following. They pay 50% of the invoice before we start production, and 50% once production is complete.
We didn’t receive a cent from CMON. They requested a change of terms midpoint where the invoice will be paid in full before pickup. We agreed. This is CMON, we were so proud that we would be working with one of the giants in the industry. Because again, we were building trust and we saw them as a huge long term partner that will help in our growth. Our hands have been tied, because technically there is no timeline when they can pick up the games. They can pick up the games in 2 years from now and there’s nothing we can do about it. On the contrary we will probably be hit with storage fees for their games. The fact remains that they haven’t even bothered replying to our emails as of recently.
What’s next? We don’t know. We are devastated, emotionally, physically, mentally. We are hurting. We are sorry. This trade war, which affected us indirectly, is having real life consequences. We can assume that is why they are not picking up the games and not paying. But, we felt that we deserved a reply to our emails especially after we explained what would happen.
Every day that this lasts is hurting people you know. We may be the first casualties of this trade war, but if this lasts we won’t be the last.
We can’t ask extra money from you in order for this project to be delivered, because we are not sure your money will be safe, especially in the event we are forced to file for bankruptcy. We have accounts to settle with our warehouses, we have a huge loan that the bank will try to collect, we are in no position to take money from you even if you wanted to.
We simply don’t know. We are living our worst nightmare and we are in no position to think straight at this moment.
We feel devastated.
We will ask you for some time to pick up the pieces, pick up ourselves and to wrestle emotionally with what just happened.
We are in absolutely no position to make any promises. We will work on finding partners that might be interested in some of our IPs, or to buy out the whole company and that way work on solutions for you receiving the games from our outstanding projects, but this will take time.
We know that you are angry, we know that you are hurt, we know that your first instinct may be to lash out at us in the comments section, messages, emails. And you will have every right, but we ask that before you do, remember that there are human beings on the other side of the screen that will be reading this, gamers like you that did their best and that are emotionally and financially devastated. We lost everything we built in the past ten years. Our company, which was a labor of love, our employees, our jobs and what probably hurts the most, we lost you.
Words cannot express how sorry we feel for this.
We hope that we will find some kind of a solution for you to receive your rewards.
When and if there's news to share with you, we will do so.
while it could just be a big firm behaving badly towards a small one, CMON not paying for something that isn't intended for the USA (so no tarrif worries on this stock) suggests they may not have the funds to so so
Comment from Josh: "We can't know everything, because frankly Final Frontier Games has not been straightforward with us from the beginning. Go back through all of the updates on this project. So so many of them have news about something that is happening or getting ready to happen, only to find out a couple of updates later that that thing hasn't started yet or is just getting started. Or they'l give a reason for something in one update, only to read a few updates later where there was actually a different reason for that thing. Heck, the very last update before this one tried to convince us that the games were in the warehouse and it was just simply QML that had to get their ducks in a row, as if Final Frontier Games had no clue about their financial troubles just 10 days ago."
Some are saying QML has the games. BLG did a thing where FS1 backers paid additional money directly to QML to receive their stuff. Anyone who backed Merchant's Cove may wish to note that QML *has* sent games directly to backers in the past.
The UK stuff appear to be at the shipping warehouse as Spiral Galaxies has just posted
on facebook
Good Afternoon. We wanted to give you a quick update on the Final Frontier situation as posted on Kickstarter today.
Frankly, this has come as something of a surprise to us as well!
As you might expect, calls are now being made to establish the facts and we'll have discussions on where things will go from here. Unfortunately as it stands the simple answer is that we don't have any clear answers for you at the moment,
We do have the stock onsite and questions will be asked if you can send us the money directly to ship your copy, regrettably we do not have authorisation or the means to do so this at this time.
I will add we would hope to have more information in the next couple of weeks, but that's by no means guaranteed. When we have an update to share, we will update backers individually using our Project Management Software and via Facebook. {quote]Good Afternoon. We wanted to give you a quick update on the Final Frontier situation as posted on Kickstarter today.
Frankly, this has come as something of a surprise to us as well!
As you might expect, calls are now being made to establish the facts and we'll have discussions on where things will go from here. Unfortunately as it stands the simple answer is that we don't have any clear answers for you at the moment,
We do have the stock onsite and questions will be asked if you can send us the money directly to ship your copy, regrettably we do not have authorisation or the means to do so this at this time.
I will add we would hope to have more information in the next couple of weeks, but that's by no means guaranteed. When we have an update to share, we will update backers individually using our Project Management Software and via Facebook.
Sounds to me like Final Frontier had a lot bigger problems long before they needed one single payment from CMON.
But hey that’s just me.
I also had Merchants Cove and it was a complicated mess of a game, that focused on crazy cardboard puzzles for certain components instead of a flat token. Which would have worked better gameplay wise anyways.
They went for bling and had to hire a person just to design the things.
From what I saw of the project, which was over a year late due to said design issues, they spent a lot of time and money on something completely unnecessary to the game itself. While it was great that the ship design guy had a paying job for a whole year or more, it seemed a colossal waste of resources.
As for CMON not paying? They probably saw there wasn’t a market and reneged on the deal. Not cool of them but it is what it is.
while it could just be a big firm behaving badly towards a small one, CMON not paying for something that isn't intended for the USA (so no tarrif worries on this stock) suggests they may not have the funds to so so
I mean, if they put the order in a year and a half ago, and saw it get delayed for 12 months, and then suddenly Final Frontier are like "hey CMON, these games are a year late but ready now, money please" it's not that surprising.
They point out that they signed a contract that basically allows CMON to collect and pay for the games at their convenience, which was obviously a bad idea. But equally if CMON had been waiting a year past the date they were told the games would be ready, it's hardly surprising that they're not immediately jumping to pay for them right now.
So just for more context and this was posted in the ASOIF tactics comments and is a repost of an email rather than a direct CMON post - payment was due on delivery and there are some errors in the printing - English text in the localise Chinese version - so that the final versions hadn't been agreed.
2 sides to every story and all that and each side will put their own spin on it but it looks like what was received was late and couldn't be released into the Chinese market with the errors - assuming the error wasn’t on CMONs side with the files in the first place from reading above it sounds like FFG were a bit disorganised with the project.
Thank you for contacting us. If you would like to know the facts, we placed a ~$65,000 order with Final Frontier in March 2023 for a translated version of Merchant’s Cove. After repeated delays from their side, production was only completed in April 2025. Per our agreement, payment was due upon completion and before pickup.
We were still reviewing final files, of which some components were incorrectly printed in English, and were actively in communication when they said they would close their company.
To be clear, we never canceled or refused payment, and no copies were delivered to us. While the situation is unfortunate, we do not believe their claim accurately reflects the cause of the Merchant’s Cove Kickstarter fulfilment issues.
Somewhat of a statement from CMON without addressing all of the ongoing issues plus putting the blame at least in part on tariffs doen''t address legacy issues- TLDR they are suspending all future game development and crowdfunding and have let staff go as a result. Sorry to hear about the job losses hopefully they find employment elsewhere quickly. Hopefully they can consolidate and get the outstanding projects done. Given they have had a big focus on crowdfunding and will only be relying on trade sales for awhile they will likely have further reductions in profit or losses.
I do wonder if Gamefound have cut them off like KS have - to many open projects.
An Update on Our Internal Teams and Company Focus
April 24, 2025
Our CMON community means a lot to us, so we felt it was important to share with you some difficult decisions at our company today. Given global conditions, and most notably the situation with tariffs, CMON has decided to focus on our current commitments to our customers and partners, and prioritize the timely delivery of existing projects. So effective immediately, we will be pausing all future game development and new crowdfunding campaigns until trade conditions have stabilized.
Unfortunately, this involves extremely difficult staffing decisions, affecting all of our creative teams with reductions. We did not make this choice lightly, and our thoughts are with everyone impacted. We are incredibly grateful for their roles in our success over the years, and these talented people will be missed both professionally and personally.
The industry continues to rapidly evolve, and unpredictable situations like the recent tariffs, or COVID just a few years ago, present challenges for everyone in board games. With that said, it is our responsibility to take these difficult measures to ensure that we can keep current projects on track and deliver them in a timely manner. We will of course resume new development as soon as possible.
Please rest assured that these decisions will help ensure that we keep our commitments to our backers, partners, and community.
Hopefully it's a case of this allows them to finish out all pre-existing commitments
(although if i was in the US and was waiting for $1000s of dollars of product i'd be very concerned about the potential bill i could end up getting on delivery as i can't imagine this means there's any spare money to help subsidise tariff costs if they're still in force when ships arrive)
This move does not inspire confidence that they'll be delivering everything that is still outstanding...
They often seemed to be relying on the next crowdfunded campaign (or two, or three) to help fulfill the previously completed campaign (or two, or three).
I guess we'll see one way or another if that was/is the case!
Yeah there are no winners when news like this breaks, fingers crossed they really do finish up what they're committed to and maybe even right the ship.
In hindsight, we've certainly seen issues CMON had, what, years ago, with delistings, audits, etc.
On the optimistic side is that CMON's partnered with SPIN Master, one of the largest toy companies. Whether this means SPIN will aid CMON in their projects, or would drop 'em in the lurch, we dunno. Also, IIRC, CMON was making or trying to make inroads into China's gaming market, not that China's economy is doing well, either. Also, CMON's been able to support its retail-only ASOIF line.
From crowdfunding, I did notice that Massive Darkness 3 didn't have the truckload of mini's. And now's a good enough time to get out of crowdfunding, after the 500 pound elephant of just as many pounds of games and miniatures crowdfunding backers are reaching satiety from.
As much as tariffs are disrupting the economy, we've seen this before with Covid (and VAT for the internationals). After Covid, I've seen a drop in crowdfunding projects. With Covid, though, once Covid was "over", we had a pent-up demand for shipping leading to unexpected shipping price increases, which led to crowdfunding (and no doubt other retail) problems. I don't think this "rebound" will happen once tariffs are solidified. But both tariffs and Covid are finally sinking mismanaged companies that were otherwise surviving. I've had at least two crowdfunding projects go under when Covid hit. IMO, Previous administrations should have increased interest rates *slowly* during USA's good economy to get rid of mismanaged companies more gradually. While crowdfunding helped projects that need to cover upfront costs (eg. miniatures), it still allowed poorly managed companies to stay afloat (eg. Ponzi schemes) so perhaps the less of that, the better. (Of course, I can also quit backing crowdfunding projects -- I've done that many times already
Oh well. Crossing my fingers, too. Also finally painting that cyclops from Massive Darkness 1 for a game of that failed Lasting Tales. So who's backing the Wildspire "Classic Miniatures" KS?
White Death has been on the boats to the US for a few weeks. It might arrive in time to avoid tarrifs (as anything that had embarked when Trump put them in place and arrives before May 7th I believe doesn't have to pay them) but this could be a big mess as they delivered to stores months ago but backers are only starting to get them if the shipping was from China (so ROW).
I am a sucker for good-looking miniatures and even better if cheap, that is what CMON has done for the industry. but that is also their curse. People just need so many miniatures. When the original
zombicide came out I got about everything that was released for it. Having 130 characters for your friends to pick through on a casual game night is a little daunting. But with the second edition
I didn't back it because the first edition scratched that itch for the game and I didn't need any more miniatures. The same goes with Massive Darkness, I got the first campaign but after that,
it was way too many miniatures I didn't need.
Also if you are not army building no one needs but a handful of enemy models for a game or RPG. I think CMON is coming to a point where their customer base is also "full" of miniatures and with the current economy been more selective of their purchases. I did go heavy on the last Cthuthlu Death May Die campaign because I had missed the first two for various reasons. Now it looks like I might have to pay double or
if really bad I may never get it. Then if I do receive it, I will own about every popular creature in the Cthulhu mythos and will have a hundred-some-odd early 1900s characters for any game I want to play in that era.
So they will need to raise the bar even higher to get me interested in the next campaign and most likely I won't.
This is the same road that GW is currently on, but they have been great at releasing expanded universe figures that look great.
I feel this is what is happening with the decline in sales, not the game design is bad or the miniatures don't look good. or even tariffs. It's just consumers are more worried about rent than getting
another 50 zombies to add to the pile of a thousand they already own.
So that's my point of view, other mileage may vary
ya. They've posted that on all the campaigns I've seen. It's kind of a non-statement but really waiting is all they can really do for PVC as I'm not sure where else they can source that. Paper/cardboard would likely be easier to find a replacement factory.
Loss for 2024 $3,049,380 higher than the $1.4m to $2.1m estimate
Revenue declined by around $7.7m - north and South America saw the biggest decline while Asia increased.
Net current liabilities exceed net assets by $4.3m - liabilities include $5.3m in contract liabilities.
Total Net Assets are $16.3m with Non Current Assets of $25.8m comprised mostly of Property machinery & Plant $17.3m and intangible assets of $6.9m
They have $2m in the bank but $2.9m in current borrowings and a further $1m in long term borrowings.
There is a deferred tax liability of $3.1m
Revenue
Our revenue decreased by approximately 17.1% to approximately US$37.4 million for the year ended 31 December 2024 from approximately US$45.1 million for the year ended 31 December 2023, primarily due to the decrease in the recognition of crowd-funding game sales.
Revenue from wholesale sales decreased by approximately 9.7% to US$16.8 million for the year ended 31 December 2024 from approximately US$18.6 million for the year ended 31 December 2023. During the year ended 31 December 2024, we recognized revenue from board games such as, but not limited to, DC Super Heroes United and
God of War: The Board Game.
Revenue via crowd-funding platforms decreased to approximately US$20.0 million for the year ended 31 December 2024 from approximately US$26.4 million for the year ended 31 December 2023, which was mainly due to the decrease in recognition of sales of five crowd-funding projects in 2024 compared to six crowd-funding platform projects in 2023.
North America and Europe remained as our major markets, with North American and European sales making up approximately 76.1% and 84.1% of our total revenue combined for the year ended 31 December 2024 and 31 December 2023 respectively.
Not a good set of results but they still have more net assets than liabilities and so long as they can continue to pay the bills as they fall due they should be able to ride this out - they are are doing this as a combination of cost costing, sales and borrowings which they seem to be able to continue to do and to roll it over as necessary so long as they can pay the interest and the banks are willing to keep lending/rolling over the debt.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: As you say not great, but way better than it could have been especially the results being published and the stock re-listed
(although it will be telling if we see any of the directoral level owners trying to sell their holdings)
It'll be fairly obvious if that happens as they have to publish monthly share movements
Step 1, put the Dark Age rule book, supplements, and cards, all up for Priont on Demand.
Step 1.5, put the miniature files up on my mini factory, or even your own platform, for POD or print at home.
Step 2. PROFIT.
Dark Age was amazing and I never got to buy up all the stuff I needed before they killed it so unceremoniously.
Were the minis digitially sculpted or hand sculpted? I didn't follow the game when it was around but, from just a quick search on the CMON site looking at the gallery, they have a hand sculpted look to them. If that was actually the case, it wouldn't be as simple as putting the files up on MMF.
As for the rules, that's definitely something that would require little to no effort on their part beyond the initial setup (of the account) and upload. Regardless though I think the results would be a pittance compared with the million dollar+ crowdfunding they're used to but it sounds like they could use any revenue stream they can get right now.
As much as I love Dark Age - and I love Dark Age! - I agree.
Getting everything back out there and available as POD stuff would be fantastic, but no where near enough to move the needle in terms of where CMON is now.
Many of the newer miniatures were 'digital', I think, but I'm not sure where the cutoff line is for that.
Selling off their existing and underutilized IP (Dark Age, Wrath of Kings, etc.) would certainly help - though I think CMON greatly overestimates what these properties are worth at this point.
Alpharius wrote: As much as I love Dark Age - and I love Dark Age! - I agree.
Getting everything back out there and available as POD stuff would be fantastic, but no where near enough to move the needle in terms of where CMON is now.
Many of the newer miniatures were 'digital', I think, but I'm not sure where the cutoff line is for that.
Selling off their existing and underutilized IP (Dark Age, Wrath of Kings, etc.) would certainly help - though I think CMON greatly overestimates what these properties are worth at this point.
Thanks for clarifying. It's not impossible and amateur digital recasters scan in physical minis for sale after some cleanup so obviously the actual rights holder can do so as well hopefully with less loss of detail though than the recasters get. If they're digitally sculpted then it's likely a few minutes worth of work to "fix" the models if they're not worried about selling presupported versions.
I think licensing off fallow properties is probably the better idea and more affordable to a plucky startup run by fans. I agree that CMON is one of the bigger dogs in the industry so might have unrealistic expectations on the value of their "remember when?" game lineup with a full on sale though.
Alpharius wrote: As much as I love Dark Age - and I love Dark Age! - I agree.
Getting everything back out there and available as POD stuff would be fantastic, but no where near enough to move the needle in terms of where CMON is now.
Many of the newer miniatures were 'digital', I think, but I'm not sure where the cutoff line is for that.
Selling off their existing and underutilized IP (Dark Age, Wrath of Kings, etc.) would certainly help - though I think CMON greatly overestimates what these properties are worth at this point.
Yes the range refresh was almost certainly digital but not everything was redone so... ooof.
It's just a dream I have guys, I know it won't happen. The closest we'd get is me winning the Euro Millions and buying the IP
It's just a dream I have guys, I know it won't happen. The closest we'd get is me winning the Euro Millions and buying the IP
That's a more viable business plan than some (non-CMON) gaming crowdfunders and one that I whole heartedly share. I'm planning on doing something similar when I win either the Powerball or Mega Millions over on this side of the Atlantic.
Alpharius wrote: As much as I love Dark Age - and I love Dark Age! - I agree.
Getting everything back out there and available as POD stuff would be fantastic, but no where near enough to move the needle in terms of where CMON is now.
Many of the newer miniatures were 'digital', I think, but I'm not sure where the cutoff line is for that.
Selling off their existing and underutilized IP (Dark Age, Wrath of Kings, etc.) would certainly help - though I think CMON greatly overestimates what these properties are worth at this point.
Yes the range refresh was almost certainly digital but not everything was redone so... ooof.
It's just a dream I have guys, I know it won't happen. The closest we'd get is me winning the Euro Millions and buying the IP
I can support this and will add this on to my list of "Things I Really Do Hope Happen"!
CMON also just sent a reminder to make sure you've finalized your pledge manager for Massive Darkness 3 - it would be the very depths of depravity and probably legally criminal tomfoolery if they're doing this knowing they can't fulfill...
All I found on an update was this: "We are taking immediate actions to adjust, with alternative manufacturing options for current and future projects. Of course this will likely mean some delays, but it is the best path forward to serve our backers."
With MD3, I noticed fewer freebies, so mebbe that's how they'll absorb costs, including tariffs. Another GF by Wildspire Miniatures was more specific, so I'm ambivalent about CMON's offer. Might as well wait for retail and the reviews...
All I found on an update was this: "We are taking immediate actions to adjust, with alternative manufacturing options for current and future projects. Of course this will likely mean some delays, but it is the best path forward to serve our backers."
With MD3, I noticed fewer freebies, so mebbe that's how they'll absorb costs, including tariffs. Another GF by Wildspire Miniatures was more specific, so I'm ambivalent about CMON's offer. Might as well wait for retail and the reviews...
I hope so?
I just checked and my shipping was $42.00 - but I think all of it is subject to 'something extra' if/when tariffs become a real, real thing and depending what's what when this project actually ships?
I can see an additional charge being levied by the USPS or some other shipper when it is time to deliver.
I'm still hopeful this will deliver - but as usual with CMON, it will probably be significantly delayed and late - which in the current environment just means additional uncertainty.
I mean, March 2026 is not that far away, but in many ways it is!
CMON is putting this into their project updates now:
Marvel United: Witching Hour
Mass production is running just a little bit behind schedule, but it's still estimated to wrap up by the end of the month! Once that's done, we'll proceed with packing and shipping as quickly as possible, with an eye to ensure the USA shipment benefits from the 90-day reduced tariffs window. That said, we are still studying how to handle the ever-changing tariff situation. While the current tariff is 30%, that is likely not a cost we are able to just absorb. By the time delivery begins we will be able to determine what, if anything, will need to be done in order to get the product to all our backers. At that time we will make sure to communicate the specifics with you.
As we proceed with fulfillment of our campaigns, including this one, we appreciate your support and understanding more than ever. We remain committed to our backers and to delivering the high-quality experiences you’ve come to expect from CMON.
DC Super Heroes United
Heroes, unite!
Given the current pause on tariffs, we are studying how to handle them for projects which may start delivery within that 90-day period. While the current tariff is 30%, that is likely not a cost we are just able to absorb. By the time delivery begins we will be able to determine what, if anything, will need to be done in order to get the product to all our backers. At that time we will make sure to communicate the specifics with you.
As we proceed with fulfillment of our campaigns, including this one, we appreciate your support and understanding more than ever. We remain committed to our backers and to delivering the high-quality experiences you’ve come to expect from CMON.
Bottom line - we should be prepared to more for the stuff then we thought we'd have to...
@Theophony: Thanks! Was wondering about why some boxes were the discount they were.
Tariffs: Smaller companies (and retail in general) are swallowing the costs, while CMON has been the first creator to pass on costs to backers with little disregard for them (see Massive Darkness 2 and VAT, Bloodwhatever and shipping, which, iirc, happened *after* campaigns closed). CMON also should have evergreen retail product (eg. Marvel United, used to be Zombicide) to cover tariffs and other costs, though who knows what deal they have with SPIN, could be not particularly beneficial. MU, btw, is regularly on sale on Amazon and should be a popular IP, so it's not like CMON has something retail customer want. Sales doesn't always mean profit, but, if CMON's business can't cover additional costs despite having more sales than most other creators, yeah, I'm glad I'm less inclined in backing their projects than the S1 Zombicide days. We've had plenty of warning, so if someone says "I told you so", I'll say, "Yep, we knew something was going on."
I'm at the point where I'd be pleased as punch if it got to the stage where the stuff I ordered from CMON merely needed me to cover a small tariff bill to be delivered. That's a minor speed bump compared to never getting anything.
Not talking about tariffs, we should also consider the fact that Zombicide 2.0 has guest characters, Cthulhu has Godzilla, and there is Masters of the Universe. While released throughout the years, asking to use IPs alongside paying Disney for Marvel Zombies and possibly for United(if separate from Spinmasters) cannot be cheap.
Another thing to notice is that I did not mention Warner Discovery, which has Supernatural, Thundercats, SoIaF(not sure if they have to pay either them or Martin, considering Wizarding World is WB), Looney Tunes, and DC(Deceased and United, which may, or may not, be compatable with Marvel a la Heroclix).
So Tabletop Tycoon have picked up Blood Rage, Rising Sun, and ANKH: Gods of Egypt as well as the chibi games Arcadia Quest and Starcadia Quest
so hopefully we'll see some more reprints (or new editions, although all of them work well enough that it's probably not essential... although the new owners would no doubt be happy to sell them to folk who already own the games)
and CMON gets some cash to help finish off their outstanding projects
Blood Rage and Rising sun both sell well in retail still so that's a good buy for Tabletop Tycoon.
Interesting to see them going for the chibi games but I think those could do well again boxed in a more approachable way then how they did it via kickstarter.
CMON have posted on facebook that they've just sold some IPs to two interested parties
One will be Tabletop Tycoon and the 5 IPs they've taken on are mentioned on above, but i'll be interested to see who the other is (are they another totally separate entity or is there any connection to CMONs owner) what they've picked up (and what CMON is left with)
It's interesting that the 5 games sold are Eric Lang games or in the case of Arcadia Quest he co-wrote them. Looking at his CMON games The Others stands out as something they haven't done anything with for awhile.
Eric Lang hasn't done any game development since 2021 and doesn't appear to be connected to Tabletop Tycoon - may be it's just coincidence and they like his work.
With the products being sold, and Rivet Wars was by another company, that leaves us with(looking at Kickstarter save for Dark Age):
SMOG
Kaosball
Dark Age
Wrath of Kings
Sedition Wars
Rum & Bones(company that now owns Tale of War does not have that)
B-Sieged
XenoShift
Dogs of War
Cardwalion
Only other non IP on the list is Relic Knights, and that is Ignition:Core now.
So at least they are keeping people updated at least, it could be like Palladium books latest go around with the TMNT RPG books that are in a developmental quagmire
and their updates keep getting fewer as their completion time is long in the rearview mirror, where have we seen that before with them....oh ya..
That's their biggest cash cow gone it will fund them short term but where will the money come from in future? unless they have an agreement to licence it back or something or they'll keep the mechanics and reskin it a bit like Massive Darkness.
It is a big cash cow, but they have milked it for a long time. I don't know how many more variations the market will support.
They can do small changes to winning formula and call it something else (like The Dead Keep). The biggest bump in revenue is likely from crowd funding, not ongoing sales.
If there was an IP that I wasn't expecting them to sell, that one would be it. It's the one that I most associate with them as a company and was critical to their early success.
It's less surprising then selling, say, Death May Die as I agree with Gallahad it's pretty milked and while I backed White Death it felt like they were running out of fuel for the brand.
But it's still not something I had them selling before some of their other unused IP.
I can also see CMoN still making the games for Asmodee too.
DaveC wrote: That's their biggest cash cow gone it will fund them short term but where will the money come from in future? unless they have an agreement to licence it back or something or they'll keep the mechanics and reskin it a bit like Massive Darkness.
Well, with SPIN Master, they have the Marvel United franchise. Well-known IP, known game system, and partner who, maybe, can share the production for the game. CMON still has, as said, Massive Darkness, plus Cthulhu: Death May Die, and the ASOIF line, as well as Marvel Zombies and DCEased, although I'm assuming they're not Zombicide licenses? Marvel United, at least for now, has a low price point so is accessible to the casual market, while their other games have a higher price tag and aren't. You'll note that both Marvel Zombies and DCEased have retail versions, while Zombicide doesn't.
After not just the tariffs but covid, I'm seeing a definite decline in crowdfunding. Transitioning back to retail when you have an evergreen product sounds like a practical strategy.
I can also see CMoN still making the games for Asmodee too.
Asmodee says Zombicide is going to be operated under the Guillotine Games label so it sounds like they've got that name too (I think they remained a separate studio under exclusive contract when they sold the Zombicide IP to CMON?)
although i guess Asmodee may not retain any of the creative staff given what they did with FFG
As some of you may have seen, it's recently been announced that the Zombicide game series is changing hands from CMON to its new home at Asmodee.
What does that mean for DCeased?
This has no impact on DCeased or any other licensed titles that use a similar system. These games are not part of the transition and will continue to be produced and distributed by CMON as usual. This means nothing changes for the fulfillment of this project, so please stay tuned for more updates on DCeased as soon as we have them, and thanks again for your support.
You may have seen the recent announcement regarding Asmodee's acquisition of Zombicide.
So, what does that mean for you? In the short term, nothing changes. You can read more here.
CMON will continue to support all Zombicide: White Death backers for the next six months. That includes handling replacements, answering product questions, and ensuring everything runs smoothly with your pledge. After that period, Asmodee will take over ongoing support.
We know this is a big transition, but we’re here to make it as smooth as possible. Our priority remains delivering a great experience for each of you.
Interesting as Marvel Zombies literally has "A Zombicide Game" printed on the box. I guess that may be removed from DCeased and any future reprints of MZ when someone buys their interest in them out.
legionaires wrote: Well now I feel like I'm going to be stuck with a bunch of half finished armies again. First it was Warmachine, now Asoiaf.
Are you referring to the more recent kickstarter set mostly in a different time period? Or are there units/figures already announced for the main GOT/ASOIAF setting that were never released?
rybackstun wrote: I mean Warmachine is still an active game with Rules and Releases consistently released. ASOIAF suffered from a lack of both.
Its the Mk3 armies that I'm missing stuff from that is extremely unlikely that SFG will reprint.
warboss wrote: Are you referring to the more recent kickstarter set mostly in a different time period? Or are there units/figures already announced for the main GOT/ASOIAF setting that were never released?
The main GOT game. I'm missing a half dozen units from several armies because I am a broke FOMO Gibbon who can't ever finish an army.
rybackstun wrote: I mean Warmachine is still an active game with Rules and Releases consistently released. ASOIAF suffered from a lack of both.
Its the Mk3 armies that I'm missing stuff from that is extremely unlikely that SFG will reprint.
warboss wrote: Are you referring to the more recent kickstarter set mostly in a different time period? Or are there units/figures already announced for the main GOT/ASOIAF setting that were never released?
The main GOT game. I'm missing a half dozen units from several armies because I am a broke FOMO Gibbon who can't ever finish an army.
Well there is always hope that Warmachine will be releasing the armies via .STL as they now have a Tribe with monthly releases.
The GOT game is also likely to release again eventually. They had times where certain units took forever to restock, but about a year ago they started getting refreshes out.
warboss wrote: Are you referring to the more recent kickstarter set mostly in a different time period? Or are there units/figures already announced for the main GOT/ASOIAF setting that were never released?
The main GOT game. I'm missing a half dozen units from several armies because I am a broke FOMO Gibbon who can't ever finish an army.
Ah, ok. I thought maybe they very early previewed a bunch of stuff that was never released or something.
Gallahad wrote: Looks like CMON sold Zombicide IP to Asmodee.
Just in time for Asmodee to rase prices. ):
From Detective Hawk Games: "On Friday June 13th we were notified by Asmodee that the MSRP on a wide number of products will be going up by 15% on July 15th 2025."
Fantasy Flight Games is the only major Ameritrash company I'm seeing owned by Asmodee, although many popular Euros are owned by Asmodee.
legionaires wrote: Well now I feel like I'm going to be stuck with a bunch of half finished armies again. First it was Warmachine, now Asoiaf.
Excepting Brotherhood without Banners, the ASOIAF armies all seem pretty well kitted out for units. Or do you mean your ability to buy the minis while they're still available?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If Asmodee palm it off on AMG, best start buying any gaps in your collection now.
AMG seems to be where Asmodee sends games to die.
Somewhat unfair (in part). Under AMG, Legion has seen a massive amount of investment in refreshing the range and replacing all the original waves in hard plastic, alongside a substantial rules revamp. The latter is no doubt divisive as it certainly pushes away some existing players when AMG want to bring the ruleset more in line with their own vision (as much as any edition change tends to) but the intent is clearly a soft reset and to engage new players rather than let the game fade away. I certainly can't fault them for effort when it comes to Legion at least.
X-Wing and Armada are of course different situations and involve plenty of resentment but AMG evidently had little to no interest in the systems nor wanted them under their banner. Presumably Asmodee could have pushed them harder/given them the resources to develop further if they cared or saw a return on investment for it but there does seem to have been a mutual apathy.
It’s not just X-Wing and Armada though. Feels like every year, AMG fart out another Star Wars game, in a slightly different model scale, and drops an existing one.
That doesn't sound quite right. Afaik they dropped the dungeon crawler that was like 10 years old at that point, they're going strong on the army scale Legion they inherited, and added one arena battler.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s not just X-Wing and Armada though. Feels like every year, AMG fart out another Star Wars game, in a slightly different model scale, and drops an existing one.
How so? They've made precisely one SW game of their own (Shatterpoint), which they were working on prior to knowing they were inheriting Legion etc. from FFG and is analogous to their earlier Marvel game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: That doesn't sound quite right. Afaik they dropped the dungeon crawler that was like 10 years old at that point, they're going strong on the army scale Legion they inherited, and added one arena battler.
Imperial Assault (the dungeon crawler type thing) wasn't, to my knowledge, getting any active updates by FFG even prior to the reshuffle at Asmodee. It's never been under AMG's purview.
lord_blackfang wrote: That doesn't sound quite right. Afaik they dropped the dungeon crawler that was like 10 years old at that point, they're going strong on the army scale Legion they inherited, and added one arena battler.
Imperial Assault (the dungeon crawler type thing) wasn't, to my knowledge, getting any active updates by FFG even prior to the reshuffle at Asmodee. It's never been under AMG's purview.
Yeah, that's on FFG when they did something similar but it does contribute to the perception (whether true or not) that creating a minimally different but legally distinct and effectively visually and mechanically incompatible is both what is happening and ok. Someone casually looking at the lineup of the games (whether in person or online) will justifiably get that impression and shouldn't be expected to do a deep dive into the multicompany history of the various interconnected product lines. I'm not saying it's right or correct but rather that it happens regardless.
lord_blackfang wrote: That doesn't sound quite right. Afaik they dropped the dungeon crawler that was like 10 years old at that point, they're going strong on the army scale Legion they inherited, and added one arena battler.
Imperial Assault (the dungeon crawler type thing) wasn't, to my knowledge, getting any active updates by FFG even prior to the reshuffle at Asmodee. It's never been under AMG's purview.
Yeah, that's on FFG when they did something similar but it does contribute to the perception (whether true or not) that creating a minimally different but legally distinct and effectively visually and mechanically incompatible is both what is happening and ok. Someone casually looking at the lineup of the games (whether in person or online) will justifiably get that impression and shouldn't be expected to do a deep dive into the multicompany history of the various interconnected product lines. I'm not saying it's right or correct but rather that it happens regardless.
Oh absolutely, I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone commenting should have prior knowledge; just offering context.
Imperial Assault was a board game with a competitive component to try and sidestep around paying Hasbro for the Star Wars board game license. It wasn't ever a good miniatures game and wasn't ever intended to be. FFG more or less completed the board game expansion cycles on it and switched over to Legion as the actual miniatures game.
Most of the hate comes from how they exploited fans with a lot of the important models coming as tokens in the base game and sold separately as part of the competitive mode which in no way was going to cut it as a legitimate miniatures game. Squads were 3 copies of the same sculpt and the whole line was honestly pretty mediocre even for board game PVC. I actually tried at one point to use my Imperial Assault stuff in Legion and its immediately apparent how ill-suited those models would be to run a wargame, even one with as mediocre models as Legion had to begin with.
AMG is where games go to die is just not true. Armada fans have the most reasons to be salty, as for X-Wing, it was on borrowed time after 2nd edition. The update had some good ideas but the investment in upgrading your paraphernalia was a bridge too far for some. (Osprey’s Voidfighter might give the minis new life). But the Legion revamp (with the promised OP), Shatterpoint and MCP show they’re not a dumping ground for unwanted games. FFG can do that for themselves.
This. Mark mentioned one big reason X-Wing dropped: players did not want to shell out lots of money for an upgrade kit and a starter with rulebook, especially those outside Resistance and New Order.
I don't know how they handled MCP 2nd edition, but the fact that they're offering upgrade kits and free pdfs proves they're not dropping Legion anytime soon.
parakuribo wrote: This. Mark mentioned one big reason X-Wing dropped: players did not want to shell out lots of money for an upgrade kit and a starter with rulebook, especially those outside Resistance and New Order.
I don't know how they handled MCP 2nd edition, but the fact that they're offering upgrade kits and free pdfs proves they're not dropping Legion anytime soon.
There isn't a MCP 2nd Edition. They just doing rolling errata, balance passes etc... Ironically it could use a new edition. I firmly believe cutting out the horrific tactics-card bloat layer could make for a perfect game. As it is, we're like 600 cards in, and 90% are a waste of time.
There's never been a 2nd edition of MCP. Just the occasional character and scenario update that they release as print and play.
The 1-2 punch that KO'd X-Wing's upgrade kits were mostly sins of first edition. They demanded that every player buy every ship from every faction, so when it came time to upgrade your whole collection in one go, it was instantly prohibitively expensive.
Even that they might have survived, but they waited so long to go to 2nd edition that they didn't have a bit of new product to sell other than upgrade kits. Rebels didn't receive a single 2.0 exclusive ship and Empire got one years later. No new toys for anyone unless you wanted to start a new prequel era army to entice them to pay for the upgrade.
Partially its a matter of timing. The prequels hadn't hit the nostalgia bubble so people weren't too keen on their inclusion and FFG was clearly banking on the sequels being more toyetic in terms of new ships. Still, it comes down to X-Wing just not really being designed to be supported as long as it was, and its runaway success got milked dry before a real framework for something more sustainable could be built.
parakuribo wrote: This. Mark mentioned one big reason X-Wing dropped: players did not want to shell out lots of money for an upgrade kit and a starter with rulebook, especially those outside Resistance and New Order.
I don't know how they handled MCP 2nd edition, but the fact that they're offering upgrade kits and free pdfs proves they're not dropping Legion anytime soon.
There isn't a MCP 2nd Edition. They just doing rolling errata, balance passes etc... Ironically it could use a new edition. I firmly believe cutting out the horrific tactics-card bloat layer could make for a perfect game. As it is, we're like 600 cards in, and 90% are a waste of time.
They culled the vast majority of cards already. Almost everything that isn't tied to a specific character or affiliation has been cut and I think they overall work a lot better now as part of your faction identity.
I find no fault with your reasoning. The only thing I'd add is that, at least locally for me, we had been playing x-wing enthusiastically for years so there was a little bit of natural fatigue at that point and we were petering off a bit in terms of attendance. Introducing a new edition with mandatory paid upgrade kits (instead of an option for free downloads) created a jumping off point in the x-wing hobby instead of invigorating the fanbase here.
warboss wrote: I find no fault with your reasoning. The only thing I'd add is that, at least locally for me, we had been playing x-wing enthusiastically for years so there was a little bit of natural fatigue at that point and we were petering off a bit in terms of attendance. Introducing a new edition with mandatory paid upgrade kits (instead of an option for free downloads) created a jumping off point in the x-wing hobby instead of invigorating the fanbase here.
Yeah, it definitely suffered in a lot of the same ways Warmachine did in that regard. Both kept pushing players on the tournament treadmill and a lot of them didn't want to get back on as soon as they got a break.
parakuribo wrote: This. Mark mentioned one big reason X-Wing dropped: players did not want to shell out lots of money for an upgrade kit and a starter with rulebook, especially those outside Resistance and New Order.
I don't know how they handled MCP 2nd edition, but the fact that they're offering upgrade kits and free pdfs proves they're not dropping Legion anytime soon.
There isn't a MCP 2nd Edition. They just doing rolling errata, balance passes etc... Ironically it could use a new edition. I firmly believe cutting out the horrific tactics-card bloat layer could make for a perfect game. As it is, we're like 600 cards in, and 90% are a waste of time.
They culled the vast majority of cards already. Almost everything that isn't tied to a specific character or affiliation has been cut and I think they overall work a lot better now as part of your faction identity.
Woah woah! I somehow missed that! Where can I read up on it, as all I have ever seen is short banned/restricted lists!
Woah woah! I somehow missed that! Where can I read up on it, as all I have ever seen is short banned/restricted lists!
It's a little messy. Basically they originally planned to do set rotations with little symbols on the cards that rotated out. Unfortunately that included a bunch of cards that just shouldn't rotate, so they reprinted a huge stack of them with newer symbols to delay the problem, but the sets never really lined up with the order of actual model releases so the whole system just didn't work.
Instead we have this ugly compromise. The tournament document just lists every card that is legal (about 300 currently). You can find it at the end of this PDF:
It mostly exists for catch up purposes and for new players. The few times since the big purge they've actually removed things there's been big announcements for them, but if you're not following its not worth trying to go back and find the list. Another good option is MCPDB.com. If you sort by "Standard" there, everything that's been removed will either appear at the top as "Banned" or at the bottom under "Rotated".
Woah woah! I somehow missed that! Where can I read up on it, as all I have ever seen is short banned/restricted lists!
It's a little messy. Basically they originally planned to do set rotations with little symbols on the cards that rotated out. Unfortunately that included a bunch of cards that just shouldn't rotate, so they reprinted a huge stack of them with newer symbols to delay the problem, but the sets never really lined up with the order of actual model releases so the whole system just didn't work.
Instead we have this ugly compromise. The tournament document just lists every card that is legal (about 300 currently). You can find it at the end of this PDF:
It mostly exists for catch up purposes and for new players. The few times since the big purge they've actually removed things there's been big announcements for them, but if you're not following its not worth trying to go back and find the list. Another good option is MCPDB.com. If you sort by "Standard" there, everything that's been removed will either appear at the top as "Banned" or at the bottom under "Rotated".
Bizarre, but the answer is so appreciated. Card bloat was actively making me want to avoid the game. This, somewhat, helps.
Bizarre, but the answer is so appreciated. Card bloat was actively making me want to avoid the game. This, somewhat, helps.
It actually helps way more than it appears. There are still a lot of cards, but almost all of them are restricted to a specific character or affiliation. There's only a handful of cards left that work on anyone and they're mostly from the core set. The need to buy characters for cards is almost completely gone, which was my big gripe (though even big tournaments didn't seem to care if you had the card or not in my experience. Fun alt art proxies run rampant)
When it comes to actually picking your cards its a lot less bloated than it used to be. You generally just have around 20 to pick your 10 from once you've locked into an affiliation and characters. The actual 10 tends to be 2-3 affiliation specific cards, 3-4 character specific cards, 1-2 restricted cards and probably a couple more from the generic list. I don't really list build and just carry around a stack of cards about the size of a Magic deck for the dozen or so affiliations I rotate between.
I guess we wait to see what SMV says and then have to read between the lines
It wouldn't surprise me if SMV were also meant to be due money from a retail release that then got cancelled due to CMONs new reality? hence lawyers, contract fine prints etc
i really hope backers can get a full refund as this bit
REFUNDS
To be very clear, the responsibility for the delivery of this project lies with CMON and SMV. Each of you backed us in good faith, and you deserve to be compensated whole. We will honor that agreement and provide 100% refunds for the remaining backers for the project.
Pending final legal resolution, we will reach out to you with instructions to initiate the refund process accordingly. We are currently coordinating with the legal teams involved to ensure everything proceeds smoothly and without missteps.
makes it seem there are a whole bunch of complexities still in play
I have the Digenesis RPG and it's one of the most beautiful book sets I own but having followed other projects in the line for the RPG this doesn't surprise me as almost nothing they ever promised got released. Lots of cancelations.
FWIW, it looks like the official CMON Amazon store is participating with some items for Prime Day in the US so if you have Prime you can get 30-45% off of some stuff. I picked up an ASOIAF unit box that I have no legitimate use for since it was heavily discounted. Damn you, Bezos, for making me help pay off your wedding!!
edit: The only catch I see is that the shipping is very slow for prime in that it's telling me my stuff won't arrive for almost a week. Eh, I can wait and it's just getting added to the pile of shame anyways...
But yeah I get that. The Shael Han "Big Sisters", the Shael Han Iron Lotus and Black Lotus and the Goritsi Skarza female sculpts all had a degree of that though none as bad as the Pelagarth... which my local group referred to as "fat bottom girls". Our dedicated Nasier guy didnt like em so didnt use them so I ended up with all his fat bottom girls.
