zedmeister wrote: Unsurprising. It's always been a very popular unit. Maybe they'll make an alternative straight Whirlwind turret as well?
Possibly, though there was a rumour (via Valrak I think) the next two models were this and the laser destroyer, so maybe not imminently.
I hope so, the Laser Destroyer would look great in my Armored Company.
With apologies, he actually said the Typhon and I had a bit of a brain fart with "Heresy era vehicles that are a big gun with tracks." He also said Jetbikes are coming.
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the Vindicator variants are next on the list after that, there is clearly a desire to get all the tanks done.
I wonder the FW molds are simply large and there's a desire to get the space back?
Resin vehicles were a real barrier to entry for HH the first time around.
I mean, have you every tried assembling a resin Spartan?!?
I can see why GW is putting out a lot of plastic tanks now, as they are probably one of the things that new *and* old HH players will be happy to purchase.
But yes, I'd love a lot more plastic infantry, especially of the Assault/Despoiler/Destroyer variety.
Plastic tanks also tend to stand the test of time really well, so getting these out now is an investment in the future because they know they'll be popular and won't need refreshing for decades. Look at stuff like the Mars Pattern Land Raider and the Falcon. They're really old kits but still look incredible. Infantry is important but can tend to look dated quicker.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of reasons to translate the tanks from resin to plastic. The sooner FW can stop selling a lot of the variants the better, I'm sure.
They may even get a better profit margin on the plastic tanks than the resin ones, despite the resin kits being so much more expensive.
Alpharius wrote: I mean, have you every tried assembling a resin Spartan?!?
I've built a resin Baneblade and Stormblade. Does that count?
I've done the Fellblade and the Spartan, and the agony of trying to get the tracks to match up on the Spartan (prior to the kit getting a revision) beats anything awkward on the Baneblade chassis. In fact, the only thing I remember about the Fellblade was I used some Blood and Skulls Industries tracks that are sharp as hell and cut myself on them. For the Spartan I actually binned the original tracks and bought an aftermarket WW2 tank track set (the sort where you glue each individual link together) because it was more straightforward.
drbored wrote: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of reasons to translate the tanks from resin to plastic. The sooner FW can stop selling a lot of the variants the better, I'm sure.
They may even get a better profit margin on the plastic tanks than the resin ones, despite the resin kits being so much more expensive.
Let's all hope that this includes a Fellblade/Glaive kit...
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, has anyone noticed that the Sicaran Venator is completely gone from the FW site? I can't find it, not even via search.
Iron Warriors, Space Wolves only have a terminator one (and it’s rubbish), Iron Hands have an Iron Father but no powered armour Praetor, World Eaters, Thousand Sons just have a terminator one, Salamanders and Raven Guard I think are left for Praetor models. Not too many to go really. Looking forward to seeing the World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard in particular.
The Phazer wrote: I wonder the FW molds are simply large and there's a desire to get the space back?
As I understand it, the large silicone moulds needed to cast large vehicles have a short lifespan, and they take up a lot of material, both silicone and resin, so production costs per kit are high and there are a lot of miscasts.
Leaving out the Carnodon from Liber Imperium is really frustrating. It is the fourth product displayed when one selects ‘Solar Auxilia’ on the FW website; a current product that appears to have been relegated to a PDF at some point. I own three.
The absence of the Terrax and Macrocarid from the Mechanicum book was annoying; I own the latter and accept that it is no longer made. Still, at least the Arlatax is there, right? The battle automata that has never had a model.
Paying a fair wedge for both books only to discover they omit even current models is demoralising. Better queue up to buy the Rapiers and Aevos Jovan anyway, huh?
Agamemnon2 wrote: Dang, my Firstborn collection already has a Whirlwind (the old metal one on the plastic Mk Ic Rhino) so I don't have an excuse to buy a Scorpius, but I wish I did.
Seeing the 2 are different units buy one to play skorpius?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of reasons to translate the tanks from resin to plastic. The sooner FW can stop selling a lot of the variants the better, I'm sure.
They may even get a better profit margin on the plastic tanks than the resin ones, despite the resin kits being so much more expensive.
You can remove the "may". There's reason why after gw team took hold for 40k rules for FW stuff the resin unit rules just SUCK. GW wants to make sure every gamer who buys stuff for rules get plastic rather than resin as it's more profits.
ImAGeek wrote: Iron Warriors, Space Wolves only have a terminator one (and it’s rubbish), Iron Hands have an Iron Father but no powered armour Praetor, World Eaters, Thousand Sons just have a terminator one, Salamanders and Raven Guard I think are left for Praetor models. Not too many to go really. Looking forward to seeing the World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard in particular.
Iron Warriors do not have a legion specific Praetor on the FW website currently.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:World eaters have no legion specific praetors.
Togusa wrote:
ImAGeek wrote: Iron Warriors, Space Wolves only have a terminator one (and it’s rubbish), Iron Hands have an Iron Father but no powered armour Praetor, World Eaters, Thousand Sons just have a terminator one, Salamanders and Raven Guard I think are left for Praetor models. Not too many to go really. Looking forward to seeing the World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard in particular.
Iron Warriors do not have a legion specific Praetor on the FW website currently.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:World eaters have no legion specific praetors.
Togusa wrote:
ImAGeek wrote: Iron Warriors, Space Wolves only have a terminator one (and it’s rubbish), Iron Hands have an Iron Father but no powered armour Praetor, World Eaters, Thousand Sons just have a terminator one, Salamanders and Raven Guard I think are left for Praetor models. Not too many to go really. Looking forward to seeing the World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Raven Guard in particular.
Iron Warriors do not have a legion specific Praetor on the FW website currently.
That’s what I said?
Am I misunderstanding what you said. What I read (please correct me if I am wrong) is that Iron Warriors, Space Wolves only have a Terminator one (and its rubbish).
But Iron Warriors do not have any, especially not a terminator one. So it might be me mistaking what you wrote?
Yeah it’s not a very good sentence, it was more me typing as they came to my head, but they’re all the ones still to come with a couple of examples that have one flavour but not both.
I'd love to get a plastic Damocles Command Rhino, but realistically that's not really needed. I forget whether the old Rhino top hatches fit on the new Deimos kit, but if so, they could literally just keep selling the communications array pieces as as a cheap conversion kit (if not, making a new interface plate for the satellite dish wouldn't take their designers more than a cuppa's worth of time).
The 30k version of the Damocles never came with the interior details of the original anyway, and those details are of questionable ingame use, since you can't see them without leaving the top array loose, or by opening the rear ramp and adding lights to the kit.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Too bad GW won't make a Heresy version of the SM command tanks box, with a Damocles Deimos Rhino and an Armored Proteus LR Excelsior
Why wouldn’t they?
Single upgrade sprue, keep it WHW and Citadels Exclusive and Bob’s your aunt’s live in lover.
Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got loads to show you right here on the Warhammer Community website, including this year’s Christmas battleforces, new miniatures for Necromunda, and the next set of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy upgrade sets.
Honestly would be a bit of a bummer if despoilers/assault marines were an upgrade sprue because I'd have so many useless bolters from the mk6 kit left over.
Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got loads to show you right here on the Warhammer Community website, including this year’s Christmas battleforces, new miniatures for Necromunda, and the next set of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy upgrade sets.
Assault marines finally comin'?
Upgrade set? Man I would hope melee marines aren't another add-on sprue for bolter marine bodies.
Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got loads to show you right here on the Warhammer Community website, including this year’s Christmas battleforces, new miniatures for Necromunda, and the next set of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy upgrade sets.
Assault marines finally comin'?
Possibly, but more than likly it's the missing chapter helms and shoulders.
Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got loads to show you right here on the Warhammer Community website, including this year’s Christmas battleforces, new miniatures for Necromunda, and the next set of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy upgrade sets.
Assault marines finally comin'?
Upgrade set? Man I would hope melee marines aren't another add-on sprue for bolter marine bodies.
How come? I'd actually like that, it would make them a lot cheaper than just adding in another 20 man 80$ kit.
Togusa wrote: How come? I'd actually like that, it would make them a lot cheaper than just adding in another 20 man 80$ kit.
Actually a box of dudes might be cheaper than a box of dudes plus a box of arms.
Okay that's fair. I hadn't thought about that issue. Also, the compatibility issues with MK3 and 4. I wish they'd just eat it and upscale the 3's and 4's to match Mk6.
Togusa wrote: How come? I'd actually like that, it would make them a lot cheaper than just adding in another 20 man 80$ kit.
Actually a box of dudes might be cheaper than a box of dudes plus a box of arms.
Okay that's fair. I hadn't thought about that issue. Also, the compatibility issues with MK3 and 4. I wish they'd just eat it and upscale the 3's and 4's to match Mk6.
Togusa wrote: How come? I'd actually like that, it would make them a lot cheaper than just adding in another 20 man 80$ kit.
Actually a box of dudes might be cheaper than a box of dudes plus a box of arms.
Okay that's fair. I hadn't thought about that issue. Also, the compatibility issues with MK3 and 4. I wish they'd just eat it and upscale the 3's and 4's to match Mk6.
Amen to that!
Yeah, I'm glad we're getting all these tanks. And the greed-monster in me hopes we see the Fellblade/Glaive in plastic soon. But I would also like to see some infantry, Assault, Breachers, Despoilers, etc. What I would really like to see is a generic praetor/Consul kit with literally dozens of options and poses.
Warhammer Community wrote:We’ve also got loads to show you right here on the Warhammer Community website, including this year’s Christmas battleforces, new miniatures for Necromunda, and the next set of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy upgrade sets.
Upgrade set? Man I would hope melee marines aren't another add-on sprue for bolter marine bodies.
How come? I'd actually like that, it would make them a lot cheaper than just adding in another 20 man 80$ kit.
It would mean carrying over the same leg poses for most of the army, plus potentially giving up on the classic jump pack straps over the torso design aesthetic which has been a constant for jump troops for decades now.
Yeah there’s already only 5 poses for Tactical marines, support and heavy squads. I’d be disappointed if we didn’t get more legs/bodies for melee troops.
I think it's doing OK. Dreadnoughts & Armigers need some rebalancing, and we need more plastic infantry kits but locally there's always games happening and people are happy with it.
ImAGeek wrote:Yeah there’s already only 5 poses for Tactical marines, support and heavy squads. I’d be disappointed if we didn’t get more legs/bodies for melee troops.
I originally though it was a big issue with primaris, but with the poses from various boxes you can get a pretty good variety of poses for tacticus armoured troops.
So hopefully we will get more variety for mkvi, GW will probably take their sweet-ass time tho.(3yrs for Primaris).
Jetbikes and speeders are relatively low-hanging fruit and would not require a ton of sprues and any of the remaining deimos vehicles should be sooner rather than later.
Agamemnon2 wrote: It would mean carrying over the same leg poses for most of the army, plus potentially giving up on the classic jump pack straps over the torso design aesthetic which has been a constant for jump troops for decades now.
You mean, the ""constant"" ""classic"" design aesthetic HH peed all over, forgotten, shot and dumped in shallow grave ages ago?
Agamemnon2 wrote: It would mean carrying over the same leg poses for most of the army, plus potentially giving up on the classic jump pack straps over the torso design aesthetic which has been a constant for jump troops for decades now.
You mean, the ""constant"" ""classic"" design aesthetic HH peed all over, forgotten, shot and dumped in shallow grave ages ago?
Spoiler:
In most of those cases you have some kind of torso plate which serves the same purpose as the straps. But it is an issue in some cases (also with the Death Company marines).
Agamemnon2 wrote: It would mean carrying over the same leg poses for most of the army, plus potentially giving up on the classic jump pack straps over the torso design aesthetic which has been a constant for jump troops for decades now.
You mean, the ""constant"" ""classic"" design aesthetic HH peed all over, forgotten, shot and dumped in shallow grave ages ago?
You are right, I was thinking more along the lines of Mk II and Mk V assault marines and the metal-with-plastic-arms ones in my collection.
Oh, they do. I like both them and the Destroyers (wish they had better anatomy, though). That doesn't change HH designers either forgot or decided to retcon HH jump pack for looks (see also changing Mk II from riveted helmet to mobile and removing most ridiculous bits of the armour). Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but now I find HH gatekeepers from other forums obsessing over tiny bits of knee or backpack really ridiculous, because not only FW changes designs on a whim, but also all SM armour marks had hundreds of sub-patterns differing in details making the obsession of 'accuracy' even dumber.
Agamemnon2 wrote: You are right, I was thinking more along the lines of Mk II and Mk V assault marines and the metal-with-plastic-arms ones in my collection.
Yup, most other marks do sport the straps making the omission even weirder. I do like the look (though I am puzzled why some strap sets seem to include what looks like ventilation grill at the center) so I wish FW was a bit more consistent in this. To make this even funnier, Primaris Techmarine has completely new variant of jump pack straps just to support his (slightly heavier but otherwise normal) backpack suggesting FW packs would tear themselves free at first push of the button
What? The Primaris Techmarine has power cabling that calls back to the design of the 2nd and 3rd edition Techmarine aesthetics. Those aren't backpack straps.
VAYASEN wrote: Just a quick question from a lover of 40k since launch....
How is 30k doing in general? Not followed it at all..but have a general interested due to the link to 40k obviously.
Dont honestly think ill invest in it....I would...but just another set of rules to learn.
Just genuinely interested if its doing well/taken off.
Was always disappointed 40k Epic didnt survive (officially)...loved the game.
Seems to depend on your area. In some it's thriving and doing better than other systems, especially AoS. In some it rose like a phoenix then dropped just as quickly. Overall it seems to be doing pretty damn well. The true test will be when the new 40k edition arrives.
Platuan4th wrote: What? The Primaris Techmarine has power cabling that calls back to the design of the 2nd and 3rd edition Techmarine aesthetics. Those aren't backpack straps.
Except for the fact vehicle techmarines lack it, it's only the ones with heavy backpack that have them (and funnily enough, FW techmarines lack them too making straps parallels even more obvious):
Spoiler:
Also if you think about it, four "power" cables that don't even connect to power source and meet on chest powering absolutely nothing (except for the thing that looks suspiciously similar to backpack strap lock) don't make any sense, sooo...
Some running models with plenty of pistols and chainswords (possibly both sheathed and in the hand) would be awesome. It's a bit of a pain to scrounge through my bitsbox to kit out units. The torsos having options for belted and unbelted or no belts would be nice too. So they can be used for both the foot and jump mounted assault units.
I've always wondered. The jump packs are meant to be disposable once you drop down, assuming by the quick release on the chest. How does the armour receive it's normal power then? Batteries that need to be replenished after a short period of deployment perhaps?
cody.d. wrote: Some running models with plenty of pistols and chainswords (possibly both sheathed and in the hand) would be awesome. It's a bit of a pain to scrounge through my bitsbox to kit out units. The torsos having options for belted and unbelted or no belts would be nice too. So they can be used for both the foot and jump mounted assault units.
I've always wondered. The jump packs are meant to be disposable once you drop down, assuming by the quick release on the chest. How does the armour receive it's normal power then? Batteries that need to be replenished after a short period of deployment perhaps?
No you are mistaken. Space marines keep using the jump packs throughout a battle, they aren't one use.
You may confusing them with Grav Chutes, like elysian drop troopers use. They are one use.
I rather like these. Not particularly a fan of the sergeant's crest (its a bit too ostentatious), but I could see picking a pack of each, particularly just using helmet and pad for squad sergeants.
(I like the idea of the IH going even more unadorned in whatever mark of armor post-massacre. They just don't have the time, resources or vanity for that).
Want sure what to expect for iron hands mkvi heads. These aren't bad, even if not what I envisioned.
The bare head is fantastic though. I feel like that would be a perfect kardan Stronos head--i seem to recall he's missing his mouth and has at least one bionic eye.
I think I'll grab a set of those heads to chuck on some primaris marines. Whilst billed as mk6 (I had to double check I hadn't misread the Roman numerals) they don't have the typical pronounced snout so I think they'll work for mk4 or primaris. They remind me of the primaris techmarine helm which is one of my favourite space marine helm designs.
So the AoD box has 40 SM grunts? I will finally build two blobs of 20 men each with one using the upgrade bits to quickly differentiate the squads at first glance. Need a second Spartan though to transport the second squad as IH don´t like to hike.
Strg Alt wrote: So the AoD box has 40 SM grunts? I will finally build two blobs of 20 men each with one using the upgrade bits to quickly differentiate the squads at first glance. Need a second Spartan though to transport the second squad as IH don´t like to hike.
Spartan is amazing, can't understate that at all. But the Proteus Kit is flipping a dream. Easily the most fun I've had building a model kit from GW in AGES and it looks stellar, even in grey plastic. Can't wait to get it painted up and see it on the table top!
Pretty nice helmets and not tied so strongly to Iron Hands that they couldn't fit elsewhere. I think I'll pick up a set to use when building techmarines for my Dark Angels.
The helmets are far superior to the older jankier IH offerings from FW. My Heresy force is UM, but a set of these heads will be great for tank crew techmarines.
Those are the second worst head, just after the SW ones. They don't look IH and they aren't even MKVI Is this some kind of weird, competition, the sculptors actively trying to outdo each other but in a bad way ?
Yeah, I think they look like MKVI heads as well. I dont love them, they are ok, but that sergeant head does it for me, it has that admech marshal vibe going on!
Gert wrote: The only non-MkVI part is the changed beak. It very much is a MkVI helmet.
You might argue that the beak is the last thing you should remove from the armor mark that got its nickname from it.
I suppose the designers didn't feel like the rest of the helmet provides an opportunity for 18 different designs, but it's still a dodgy choice. Maybe they should have made alternate chest plates instead of helmets.
Gert wrote: The only non-MkVI part is the changed beak. It very much is a MkVI helmet.
Well, seeing as the beak IS the featuring part of a MKVI where the additional / improved sensors are located, taking it off pretty much negates the main feature of a MKVI, visually and in universe, but ok
Gert wrote: The only non-MkVI part is the changed beak. It very much is a MkVI helmet.
You might argue that the beak is the last thing you should remove from the armor mark that got its nickname from it.
I suppose the designers didn't feel like the rest of the helmet provides an opportunity for 18 different designs, but it's still a dodgy choice. Maybe they should have made alternate chest plates instead of helmets.
With the new way the bodies are cut, chest plates would be quite limited in use. Heads and shoulders are basically universal across the marine range.
Gert wrote: The only non-MkVI part is the changed beak. It very much is a MkVI helmet.
Well, seeing as the beak IS the featuring part of a MKVI where the additional / improved sensors are located, taking it off pretty much negates the main feature of a MKVI, visually and in universe, but ok
Iron Hands are really quite smart when it comes to machines. They've downsized the improved sensors.
godardc wrote: Well, seeing as the beak IS the featuring part of a MKVI where the additional / improved sensors are located, taking it off pretty much negates the main feature of a MKVI, visually and in universe, but ok
The rest of the helmet is objectively MkVI though. Like it's not even like some of the other upgrade sets that were supposed to be specific armour Marks but objectively weren't like the Dark Angels and White Scares MkII sets:
VAYASEN wrote: Just a quick question from a lover of 40k since launch....
How is 30k doing in general? Not followed it at all..but have a general interested due to the link to 40k obviously.
Dont honestly think ill invest in it....I would...but just another set of rules to learn.
Just genuinely interested if its doing well/taken off.
Was always disappointed 40k Epic didnt survive (officially)...loved the game.
Sorry about being late to the party, but I don't get to come in here everyday. If you like 40k, I think 30k is a lot better, it plays better and is less complex with all the strategiums and command point shennanigans. The game is very interesting and seems to be welcomed by all who play it. The box set offers a lot of value which is pretty decent for starting out.
Now the bads... GW totally botched the release. Many of the items you need are out of stock pretty much since they have been released. The rhinos in particular which seems a pretty much auto include are impossible to come by and when the come in stock they disappear as soon as they are back. Their releases have been very sporatic at best. They are missing some of the major units that would be needed for several of the legions. This has put a lot of people off from playing or caused them to quit. The enthusiasm seems to be heavily losing steam.
It is hard to say the longevity of it. The game is great, the way the releases are going is beyond horrible and the momentum is fading.
VAYASEN wrote: Just a quick question from a lover of 40k since launch....
How is 30k doing in general? Not followed it at all..but have a general interested due to the link to 40k obviously.
Dont honestly think ill invest in it....I would...but just another set of rules to learn.
Just genuinely interested if its doing well/taken off.
Was always disappointed 40k Epic didnt survive (officially)...loved the game.
Sorry about being late to the party, but I don't get to come in here everyday. If you like 40k, I think 30k is a lot better, it plays better and is less complex with all the strategiums and command point shennanigans. The game is very interesting and seems to be welcomed by all who play it. The box set offers a lot of value which is pretty decent for starting out.
Now the bads... GW totally botched the release. Many of the items you need are out of stock pretty much since they have been released. The rhinos in particular which seems a pretty much auto include are impossible to come by and when the come in stock they disappear as soon as they are back. Their releases have been very sporatic at best. They are missing some of the major units that would be needed for several of the legions. This has put a lot of people off from playing or caused them to quit. The enthusiasm seems to be heavily losing steam.
It is hard to say the longevity of it. The game is great, the way the releases are going is beyond horrible and the momentum is fading.
Spotty supply issues are nothing new for GW when it comes to releasing brand new kits. Checking the US site right now, Rhinos are in stock. If there's anything you desperately need, click the 'e-mail me' button next to the out of stock unit of choice. They're actively pumping out more plastic.
The release schedule has been very VERY strange. We've gotten dreadnoughts and tanks and not a lot else. Many legions are waiting on basic troops. Assault Marines, Despoilers, Breachers, are all key things that some legions simply can't be flavorful or function properly without.
I won't say "the releases are beyond horrible and the momentum is fading" however. There's a lot still to come. Once we get past the holidays, I'm sure 30k stuff will pick up steam again. After all, the Starter Box for 30k is still available and will be a popular X-mas purchase for those that didn't grab one on release.
GW have a butt-ton to release. Once we see plastic assault marines, the floodgates will open back up again.
Spotty supply issues are nothing new for GW when it comes to releasing brand new kits. Checking the US site right now, Rhinos are in stock. If there's anything you desperately need, click the 'e-mail me' button next to the out of stock unit of choice. They're actively pumping out more plastic.
The release schedule has been very VERY strange. We've gotten dreadnoughts and tanks and not a lot else. Many legions are waiting on basic troops. Assault Marines, Despoilers, Breachers, are all key things that some legions simply can't be flavorful or function properly without.
I won't say "the releases are beyond horrible and the momentum is fading" however. There's a lot still to come. Once we get past the holidays, I'm sure 30k stuff will pick up steam again. After all, the Starter Box for 30k is still available and will be a popular X-mas purchase for those that didn't grab one on release.
GW have a butt-ton to release. Once we see plastic assault marines, the floodgates will open back up again.
I can't imagine when/ if they release the assault / despoilers, breachers, assault drill, or recon marines, they will be able to keep them in stock or satisfy the demand. Rhinos were released months ago and people couldn't get them. I think GW screwed the pouch. Yes people getting the boxes for christmas will help but unless they work on their stock issues and release schedule, I am not sure how much steam it will have. It has turned a lot more people to buying 3d printers or 3d printed stuff for sure.
Personally I feel the issue is overblown. It takes most people months to build and paint their army. Work on what you -can- get and then get the rest when it becomes available - hasn't failed me yet.
GW is going to continue having supply issues as long as the WORLD has supply issues, which will continue to be a problem. Couple that with Brexit, a war in eastern europe, and who knows what else and all I have to say to anyone that's willing to turn a blind eye to any of that is: Learn some dang patience.
GW works on a time scale much longer than, say, a video game developer. The previous edition of 30k lasted a decade. That's how long it took to get all the primarchs done up in resin. Some people went to 3d printing, sure, but many people waited to either finish their collection of primarchs or to get the one they were waiting for. It sucks to have to wait for a thing you want...
but all this to say: I think you're overblowing the issues.
That point stands....if some legions didn't require assaults, despoilers, etc to "work"(i.e. operate in lore).
I understand they want to balance out releases, but all of the infantry should be done rather quickly. The plethora of vehicles is cool, but for each release slot(looking at you Leviathan/heavy weapon sprue) they took up with a "not" dual kit, there wasn't at minimum a jumppack/chainsword sprue is kinda weird.
Racerguy180 wrote: That point stands....if some legions didn't require assaults, despoilers, etc to "work"(i.e. operate in lore).
I understand they want to balance out releases, but all of the infantry should be done rather quickly. The plethora of vehicles is cool, but for each release slot(looking at you Leviathan/heavy weapon sprue) they took up with a "not" dual kit, there wasn't at minimum a jumppack/chainsword sprue is kinda weird.
Yeah absolutely.
Funny enough, I don't see printing out all these tanks as being a balanced release. We've gotten nearly all of the Heavy Support tank options in the Astartes books, but zero of the Fast Attack and only a handful of other options.
My running theory is that they're trying to clear out resin from FW. By knocking out a lot of the tanks, they're making it so that FW doesn't have to produce those kits, so they can clear out that inventory and work space.
Tanks were also a thing that were priced pretty prohibitively compared to other things in 30k in the past. Having them and dreadnoughts in plastic now lets people make the squadrons/talons of their dreams.
I'll definitely start changing my tune if we get into February or March and still haven't even gotten a HINT or RUMOR of some of the key troop or fast attack options for 30k. As it is, I've got 20 space marines, 4 tanks, and 3 contemptors to paint.
Gert wrote: The only non-MkVI part is the changed beak. It very much is a MkVI helmet.
You might argue that the beak is the last thing you should remove from the armor mark that got its nickname from it.
I suppose the designers didn't feel like the rest of the helmet provides an opportunity for 18 different designs, but it's still a dodgy choice. Maybe they should have made alternate chest plates instead of helmets.
With the new way the bodies are cut, chest plates would be quite limited in use. Heads and shoulders are basically universal across the marine range.
True, but that's just a consequence of cramming five Marines on one and a half sprues instead of making a Mk.VI kit that is comparable to other Marine core squads like they should have. Removing the beak from a beakie helmet is just doubling down on a bad decision.
JWBS wrote: There will surely be a full heresy era tactical kit released at some point (hopefully soon) and this will provide a good number of opportunities.
What do you mean? That’s what the MkVI kit (and the III and IV) are.
I mean a box with two unique medium-size sprues and a lot of options included, the current mkvi is one small sprue plus one very small upgrade sprue (I think, I haven't bought the standalone kit, I only got the AoD box)
JWBS wrote: There will surely be a full heresy era tactical kit released at some point (hopefully soon) and this will provide a good number of opportunities.
The MkVI kit contains everything you need to make Heresy Tactical squads, though? The way they did it honestly is the best way they could do it with how Heresy squads work with equipment.
JWBS wrote: I mean a box with two unique medium-size sprues and a lot of options included, the current mkvi is one small sprue plus one very small upgrade sprue (I think, I haven't bought the standalone kit, I only got the AoD box)
I’m not a huge fan of the MkVI kit for the same reason, but I don’t think there’s a fuller kit coming.
I think the idea is that the Mark 3, 4, and 6 kits gives us Tacticals, while the Mark 6 kit + the various upgrade kits give us some of the other infantry options like HSS, TSS, etc. Whether they expand the number of upgrade kits to cover other infantry options or introduce new kits for those is the question.
Maybe not, considering the separate weapon packs, but that would be some sad regression given the limited poses (this could be mitigated with the release of assault marines I suppose) and lack of unique heads (Primaris heads being too large).
Agamemnon2 wrote: It would mean carrying over the same leg poses for most of the army, plus potentially giving up on the classic jump pack straps over the torso design aesthetic which has been a constant for jump troops for decades now.
You mean, the ""constant"" ""classic"" design aesthetic HH peed all over, forgotten, shot and dumped in shallow grave ages ago?
Spoiler:
In most of those cases you have some kind of torso plate which serves the same purpose as the straps. But it is an issue in some cases (also with the Death Company marines).
They certainly do, though the point is that "straps across the chest" design point hasn't been much of a "rule" for quite a few years now...
ph34r wrote: Good for making helmet stripes! Pretty boring, but maybe that's good.
Yes exactly: those are finally good helmets. They look like helmets, they look like MVI helmets, and they look like Ultramarine MKVI helmets
At long last, something that isn't overdone.
This is eventually a solid release for HH
Yeah… the six without the U are something you could achieve yourself with the basic plastics and a line scriber tool if you had the patience and a steady hand. I also have no idea what makes them “ultramarine” rather than “anymarine” - do other legions have an aversion to stripes?
Yeah, I won't lie, as far as I'm concerned, they're the first real "miss".
The shoulder pads are nice, I like the raised lip of the ultima symbol, but the helmets are just incredibly dull. They're not "Ultramarine", they don't really have any stylistic quality that marks them as more "Ultramarine" than any other helmet, aside from the Chapter sigil on three of the generic helms.
With the others, you could spread them out amidst a whole squad, or just on Sergeants. These don't look interesting enough for Sergeants, and would be a waste on infantry because they're so generic. And before anyone says "the Ultramarines are the geneic Legion, they should have the generic parts", no Legion is generic. Look at the Invictarii, look at the Ultramarines head upgrades from the previous releases. Plenty to be done there, and plenty of flavour. These are just... dull. I'd honestly rather have something closer to the Space Wolves heads than these.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're Ultramarines, a group not exactly known for being outlandish or ostentatious.
I'm sorry, have you SEEN the Invictarii?
Have you seen the previous Ultramarines heads?
You might be confusing them with 40k Ultramarines, but that's not the same for 30k.
Radium wrote: So... the Typhon disappeared from the FW site. Was looking at getting one in the near future, but I guess we're now waiting for a plastic version?
Either a plastic version or a new FW kit that gives you Spartan sprues for the hull and resin (probably redesigned pieces) just for the gun. The former would of course be preferred, but the latter also seems possible to me - I don't see GW spending plastic tooling for yet another Heresy tank...
Radium wrote: So... the Typhon disappeared from the FW site. Was looking at getting one in the near future, but I guess we're now waiting for a plastic version?
Either a plastic version or a new FW kit that gives you Spartan sprues for the hull and resin (probably redesigned pieces) just for the gun. The former would of course be preferred, but the latter also seems possible to me - I don't see GW spending plastic tooling for yet another Heresy tank...
You don't? There is still the Typhon, Cerberus, Damocles Rhino, and Vindicator all low hanging fruit for GW.
Buying these UM heads for my sergeants! Already had striped helmets (2 Raven guard resin helmet kits), but these are the smaller new scale, much more agreeable for my OCD hehehe!
I also like the 90 degree angled slits next to the eyes. Not a fan of the plain side grille however, the grille slits seem too large and the positioning is a bit off based on the pict. But that MKVI tactical kit needs all the variety it can get, however subtle..
Remember when Horus Heresy was full of interesting twists and revelations that changed the way we looked at the elder imperium? Like when we learned that the Ultramarines didn't really use the upside down omega symbol... That they used golden laurels instead. They were all blue and gold with hardly any white.
It was similar to learning that all the space wolves wear handmade leather gimp masks.
Too bad FW totally forgot everything they were doing a few years ago.
The Phazer wrote: I'm honestly amazed that GW didn't stick all the Exemplary unit entries in a 2022 annual with the Ruinstorm list. It would have sold.
Probably wanted to wait until all 18 legions had their unit, otherwise it would be all "why didnt x legion get a unit" and "GW is leaving out a few just to sell another book later and invalidate this one"
tauist wrote: I also like the 90 degree angled slits next to the eyes. Not a fan of the plain side grille however, the grille slits seem too large and the positioning is a bit off based on the pict.
The problem with grilles is that FW designers pretty much always fail to think where the helmet air ducts/filters/whatever are and just slap them willy nilly randomly. Which in case of Mk 6 is bigger deal than in other marks because the front space is supposed to be full of sensors and stuff, yet their designs pretty much always ignores the fact that space is already taken with hard to move internals. Ditto with Mk 6 with sensor beak taken off and the front replaced with simpler grill (half of new resin helmets), I don't think even one design took into account ripples from such a change...
Uptonius wrote: Remember when Horus Heresy was full of interesting twists and revelations that changed the way we looked at the elder imperium?
Most of them were gak, though. 30K is supposed to be this golden era of prosperity and reason yet when you look at Imperial Army and SM Legions, they look like barbaric primitives compared to Imperial Guard and SM Chapters of M41. In both looks and organization. Just compare Valdor and Trajan, which one strikes you as golden age leader of Custodes and which is a neanderthal wrapped into freshly skinned furs?
Frankly, I was shocked when FW shown Solar Auxilia (and then not so shocked to learn it was sculptor personal pet project that went against leadership orders) because they really don't fit into 'new' HH, too modern and professional, despite being based on 50s visual style. Really, first wave of Primaris (plus Vanguard) looks far more HH than actual HH models, doubly so when you look at old descriptions of Terran born 'Imperial Truth' marines. 'New' HH has none of that save for a handful of units...
Assuming 2 of the traitor legions will get pitted against the BA and IH, I wonder if they'll reuse those traitor legions units, or if they'll get new ones.
And if every Legion gets a second round of Exemplary units, I hope the 1st get the Naufragia. The idea of plasma/phosphex cannon wielding terminators tickles me pink.
Snrub wrote: Assuming 2 of the traitor legions will get pitted against the BA and IH, I wonder if they'll reuse those traitor legions units, or if they'll get new ones.
BA didn't get a unit in The Scouring of Gilden's Star (BA vs WB), so the odds are on there being nothing for their opponents.
tauist wrote: I also like the 90 degree angled slits next to the eyes. Not a fan of the plain side grille however, the grille slits seem too large and the positioning is a bit off based on the pict.
The problem with grilles is that FW designers pretty much always fail to think where the helmet air ducts/filters/whatever are and just slap them willy nilly randomly. Which in case of Mk 6 is bigger deal than in other marks because the front space is supposed to be full of sensors and stuff, yet their designs pretty much always ignores the fact that space is already taken with hard to move internals. Ditto with Mk 6 with sensor beak taken off and the front replaced with simpler grill (half of new resin helmets), I don't think even one design took into account ripples from such a change...
I'm thinking the MKVI "beak" lore has been retconned by now. The stuff about the beak containing extra sensors etc feels like a homage to that one ABC Warrior who dies in Nemesis The Warlock comics in hindsight (this robots head looks eerily familiar doesnt it?). In the days of RT, 2000AD crosspollinated into the book somewhat, at least in terms of in-jokes etc IMHO
Doesn't the lore now state that MKVI's strenghts are in stealth ops? Or do they actually still insist on the sensors thing?
MajorWesJanson wrote: The bare head is really dull, but the rest are quite good without being over the top
Actually that bear head is really nice. It would be a great bit to use to make a custom consul or praetor for literally any legion! It's my favorite part!
MajorWesJanson wrote: The bare head is really dull, but the rest are quite good without being over the top
Actually that bear head is really nice. It would be a great bit to use to make a custom consul or praetor for literally any legion! It's my favorite part!
A bear head would seem quite out of character for the Thousand Sons, wouldn't it? Maybe a scarab head, instead.
MajorWesJanson wrote: The bare head is really dull, but the rest are quite good without being over the top
Actually that bear head is really nice. It would be a great bit to use to make a custom consul or praetor for literally any legion! It's my favorite part!
A bear head would seem quite out of character for the Thousand Sons, wouldn't it? Maybe a scarab head, instead.
I feel like there's some joke about Bjorn losing an arm and Hauser not knowing the Fenrisian word for bear.
I will echo the frustration with the sculpts of the helmet face wings. When I first skimmed through the thread for new images, I though it was weird that Ultras would have golden rib cages on helmets.
Getting some very Fallout 2 vibes from those helmets, especially viewed front on. They're decent enough; maybe not what I was expecting, though I don't dislike what they've gone with. Better than if the entire squad had a more draconic version of what they attempted with Space Wolves which was a concern.
ScarletRose wrote: It's... okay. I'm not really feeling putting together another rhino chassis with it's funky baseplate right now.
I hear you. I did okay with the first 2, but when I built the Predator the baseplate just would not fit properly. I got there eventually, but it was just too much work. It is a real disincentive to getting more Rhino-based models.
Snrub wrote: I quite taken with those helmets. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I really like them.
Perhaps cause they have a bit of a gasmask feel? Like you'd imagine a flame thrower equipped ww2 soldier to wear. Helps deal with all the ash and smoke so it makes sense for the crimson eyed blokes.
ScarletRose wrote: It's... okay. I'm not really feeling putting together another rhino chassis with it's funky baseplate right now.
I hear you. I did okay with the first 2, but when I built the Predator the baseplate just would not fit properly. I got there eventually, but it was just too much work. It is a real disincentive to getting more Rhino-based models.
If you shave the top down on the back tab on each side they slide into the gap a lot easier.
These Salamander helms have that Kevin O'Neill vibe going on. Digging it. Would make for great generic "traitor beakie" head for most CSM armies, maybe shave those rivets down tho, they poke out a bit much..
Snrub wrote: I quite taken with those helmets. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I really like them.
Perhaps cause they have a bit of a gasmask feel? Like you'd imagine a flame thrower equipped ww2 soldier to wear. Helps deal with all the ash and smoke so it makes sense for the crimson eyed blokes.
I thought they'd make good helmets for a destroyer unit for that reason.
No more endless tanks, or assassins that 3 people will use in their lists. Give us the troops we need to finish our armies!
To be fair, resin assassins have no impact on how many and which plastic kits they make for Horus Heresy. The continuing absence of close quarters infantry is still bogus, of course.
No more endless tanks, or assassins that 3 people will use in their lists. Give us the troops we need to finish our armies!
This.
Literally had my HH project shelved for months. As someone who's making a WE berzerker assault horde, I can't do jack until I get my hands on some bloody bolt pistols and melee arms.
That is a very nice Legacies PDF. It makes me wonder if the initial intention behind HH 2 Solar Aux was to fold Cults and Militia into just the one ruleset alongside Solar Aux.
Snrub wrote: I quite taken with those helmets. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I really like them.
Perhaps cause they have a bit of a gasmask feel? Like you'd imagine a flame thrower equipped ww2 soldier to wear. Helps deal with all the ash and smoke so it makes sense for the crimson eyed blokes.
I thought they'd make good helmets for a destroyer unit for that reason.
That's a really good idea!
Also, the blank helmets look more suited to Raven Guard than Salamanders (or Alpha Legion).
Gert wrote: That is a very nice Legacies PDF. It makes me wonder if the initial intention behind HH 2 Solar Aux was to fold Cults and Militia into just the one ruleset alongside Solar Aux.
Am I missing something? I don’t see cults&militia rules anywhere…
Gert wrote: That is a very nice Legacies PDF. It makes me wonder if the initial intention behind HH 2 Solar Aux was to fold Cults and Militia into just the one ruleset alongside Solar Aux.
Am I missing something? I don’t see cults&militia rules anywhere…
Well those should be their own thing presumably, not a Legacies for the SA.
Mr_Rose wrote: Am I missing something? I don’t see cults&militia rules anywhere…
Solar Auxilia got variant Tercios and army rules that are similar to C&M Provenances. The Legacies PDF adds things like Macharius tanks, static arty, and the Lodge Priest.
It's just a theory I had where C&M were getting dropped in favour of a ruleset that has official models but could easily be used to largely represent most C&M lists as well. Its obviously not true but it was an intriguing idea.
Mr_Rose wrote: Am I missing something? I don’t see cults&militia rules anywhere…
Solar Auxilia got variant Tercios and army rules that are similar to C&M Provenances. The Legacies PDF adds things like Macharius tanks, static arty, and the Lodge Priest.
It's just a theory I had where C&M were getting dropped in favour of a ruleset that has official models but could easily be used to largely represent most C&M lists as well. Its obviously not true but it was an intriguing idea.
Ah, right; I was just hoping that the promised C&M pdf had dropped somewhere and I just missed it. The roadmap did include that if I remember correctly.
Mr_Rose wrote: Ah, right; I was just hoping that the promised C&M pdf had dropped somewhere and I just missed it. The roadmap did include that if I remember correctly.
Honestly? From what I've seen the Solar Aux list is pretty good IMO. You can still make pretty characterful armies with the rules provided and it has the benefit of actually existing lol.
Yeah, it's hilarious how bad the original pdf was that you can literally cut the price of a unit in half and it's still F-tier trash that will never see the table. GW is treating 30k as a joke rules-wise and I'm not surprised to hear it's bleeding players.
See, that's why I think once the Scorpius and the last Mk 6 update sets (there's still one or two left, right?) are out, they're going to wrap up Heresy Thursdays and let the momentum of the game sputter back to pre-AoD levels.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When did the weapons on the Macharius become so short ranged?
When GW published their 30k legends equivalent, a supplement clearly aimed at saying "SEE WE GAVE YOU RULES FOR THAT NOW SHUT UP AND STOP ASKING" while making them so unappealing, both in fluff and rules, that nobody will ever use them in real games and they can quietly discontinue support entirely in the future. The whole pdf is full of idiocy like 24" range heavy guns and "this tank sucks and everyone hates it when they're desperate enough to use one" for fluff.
I'll take imperfect over non-existent. Weird things like that are better than some of the abuses of HH 1, and if 24" Battlecannons on a Macharius (a unit that was never inculded in an actual HH list) is the price to pay for the game to have better balance and plastic kits then I'm fine with that.
Gert wrote: I'll take imperfect over non-existent. Weird things like that are better than some of the abuses of HH 1, and if 24" Battlecannons on a Macharius (a unit that was never inculded in an actual HH list) is the price to pay for the game to have better balance and plastic kits then I'm fine with that.
lord_blackfang wrote: The sooner GW abandons HH again the sooner the community will fix it.
I believe I've seen you around on the Age of Darkness Discord? Have you checked out their set of fan-rules? Liber Spanakopita or whatever it's called.
Yep that's the one. Last I looked it only had Legends that GW didn't cover themselves tho. But I bet they fix all the units if there's no hope of GW doing it.
Meh, I've got 2 Macharius' and never used the Battlecannon variant so nothing has changed on that front. On the other hand I can actually used my cursed/blessed kitbashed Destroyer Tank Hunter in HH now. Plus the new rules have returned the Malcador to glory. The good is outweighing the bad.
Having played loads of the new edition I get certain complaints but anyone decrying it as completely broken or intentional sabotage gets ignored, especially if they haven't actually played the game.
Meh, I've got 2 Macharius' and never used the Battlecannon variant so nothing has changed on that front. On the other hand I can actually used my cursed/blessed kitbashed Destroyer Tank Hunter in HH now. Plus the new rules have returned the Malcador to glory. The good is outweighing the bad.
How nice of you to cut off the most important part of that post. Here, I'll stick it below to remind you:
Gert wrote: Having played loads of the new edition I get certain complaints but anyone decrying it as completely broken or intentional sabotage gets ignored, especially if they haven't actually played the game.
If people are going to decry HH 2 as broken and unplayable because a unit that was never given a datasheet in any HH 1 book has a weird range on one of its weapon options while also ignoring the good updates made to army rules and other unit profiles, then you'll forgive me for not being empathetic.
24" range battlecannons are stupid. End of story. That you have two but don't use the BC one very often is irrelevant. I have 3, and I'd like them to not completely suck in both versions of the game thankyouverymuch.
24" range battlecannons are stupid. End of story. That you have two but don't use the BC one very often is irrelevant. I have 3, and I'd like them to not completely suck in both versions of the game thankyouverymuch.
Exactly. The fact that it was 600 points for such a bad unit is proof of either incompetence or deliberate sabotage, but how the hell did it get printed with that stat line regardless of point cost? 24" range and AP 4 small blast is absolutely ****ing stupid for a heavy tank's main guns. There is no excuse for printing such badly written rules.
Yeah, let's have this big gun only shoot as far as a bolter...would actually make real tank combat much more interesting(not that it isn't fascinating)if they were limited to 5-700m
So, they're sticking with Hold the Line being a Morale test? Okayy. At least they fixed Return Fire.
And the SA super heavies have good functional weapons......but those prices? Ugh. This doesn't bode well for Cults and Militia. They need to fix those prices.
And still no FAQ for the Exemplary Battles PDF? Grumble, grumble, grumble......
H.B.M.C. wrote: They wrote bad rules and justified them badly.
Agreed. There's no reason castra-ferrum dreads should have I2.
This one really bothers me as I was hoping to field a few in my army, using Helbrutes to show that they are corrupted. They'll be extremely vulnerable in combat and could easily get cut up before being able to do anything.
ArcaneHorror wrote: This one really bothers me as I was hoping to field a few in my army, using Helbrutes to show that they are corrupted. They'll be extremely vulnerable in combat and could easily get cut up before being able to do anything.
It's a kick in the pants and no mistake. Boxnaughts are bestnaughts after all.
They'll still have a place in my forces too, albeit probably not past ZM levels of play, which I think they'll be more suited to anyway. Something about the Flamestorm Cannon/Missile Launcher combo just seems right for short range, tight confines corridor action.
tauist wrote: Battlecannons having the same range as bolters does sound like a proper pisstake
Most weapon ranges in 30K/40K are bad. All weapons with the exception of throwing grenades/flamer weapons should have unlimited range and in case of artillery a minimum range when played on your standard table sizes. Then you can apply to-hit-modifiers in increments (for example -1 for each full six inches) due to range to the target.
Obviously its the targeting arrays on the battlecannon that have a restricted range courtesy of ancient rules and quirks of the machine spirits. If you have a problem with it, try argue with the local Magos about it.
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: The whole pdf is full of idiocy like 24" range heavy guns and "this tank sucks and everyone hates it when they're desperate enough to use one" for fluff.
Dunno if it’s been mentioned, but going through my books desperately trying to blow away rule knowledge cobwebs (so, so many cobwebs), and its evident a lot of previously AP3 weapons are now AP4.
Presumably this is to add a little resilience to 30k Armies, as it even includes Plasma Weapons - though they do benefit from Breaching (4+), which is a Diet Rending, where any To Wound roll matching the parenthesised Breaching becomes AP2.
Felt worth sharing as it at least partially explains the previously discussed Battlecannon’s wussier stat line.
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: The whole pdf is full of idiocy like 24" range heavy guns and "this tank sucks and everyone hates it when they're desperate enough to use one" for fluff.
I'm curious, which tank's fluff is that?
I assume the Malcador, I remember some fluff blurb about it being relegated to PDF, training pieces or mothballed and only brought out if you run out of other tanks.
tauist wrote: Battlecannons having the same range as bolters does sound like a proper pisstake
Most weapon ranges in 30K/40K are bad. All weapons with the exception of throwing grenades/flamer weapons should have unlimited range and in case of artillery a minimum range when played on your standard table sizes. Then you can apply to-hit-modifiers in increments (for example -1 for each full six inches) due to range to the target.
Agree on everything except for the -1 part. Unlimited range weapons work surprisingly well in Kill Team (its more about having a clear shot than the actual range, as it should), and HH having a bigger board can be handwaived by many weapons in HH being heavy weapons. But -1 for each full 6" feels way too punishing, it would basically negate the whole range buff to begin with. A cumulative, ever worsening to hit modifier sounds about right, it's just a matter of establishing appropriate range bands for the modifiers..
And before we get to the "uhh the ranges are supposed to be abstract" then explain to me why some unit can run up to a target almost as far as the max range of their shooting weapons in one friggin turn It just doesn't add up
If a battle cannon has a range of 24", basic infantry should have a movement distance of 2"
tauist wrote: Battlecannons having the same range as bolters does sound like a proper pisstake
Most weapon ranges in 30K/40K are bad. All weapons with the exception of throwing grenades/flamer weapons should have unlimited range and in case of artillery a minimum range when played on your standard table sizes. Then you can apply to-hit-modifiers in increments (for example -1 for each full six inches) due to range to the target.
Agree on everything except for the -1 part. Unlimited range weapons work surprisingly well in Kill Team (its more about having a clear shot than the actual range, as it should), and HH having a bigger board can be handwaived by many weapons in HH being heavy weapons. But -1 for each full 6" feels way too punishing, it would basically negate the whole range buff to begin with. A cumulative, ever worsening to hit modifier sounds about right, it's just a matter of establishing appropriate range bands for the modifiers..
And before we get to the "uhh the ranges are supposed to be abstract" then explain to me why some unit can run up to a target almost as far as the max range of their shooting weapons in one friggin turn It just doesn't add up
If a battle cannon has a range of 24", basic infantry should have a movement distance of 2"
Well, I can´t and won´t cram all ideas into a single post. Suffice to say when you introduce to-hit-modifiers (range, cover, skills, equipment, etc.) it is a given to have also to-hit-boni from equipment/skills or just from specific weapon types (e.g. targeters, laser sights, sensor arrays, etc.). So for instance pistols could get a bonus for the first short range increment and become worse than all other ranged weapons in later increments. The six inch increment is also not written in stone and could be altered to maybe eight inch (max should be twelve inch).
If you choose to use D6s then you also need to have dice results from BS1 up to BS10 or else your set of modifiers will crash the game. Hit-modifiers will also allow units to start with a fairly high BS score (even Orks!) in their profile as shooting people at very long ranges (and possibly even in cover) is going to be really hard for everybody than the most dedicated sniper such as a Vindicare Assassin.
Give weapons a range increment and a zero range. So a bolter could be RI 8, Z 12. Then any shot over 20" or under 4" starts suffering penalties. Then you can stick in standard rules for things like pistols that double range penalties. Minimum or maximum ranges for things like artillery and melts pistols can be part of the weapon notes.
Snipers would be able to set their own zero but it would stay set even if the target moved (reaction) and couldn’t be changed for a snap shot.
… and now you need a Liber Armamentorum to cover everything.
tauist wrote: If a battle cannon has a range of 24", basic infantry should have a movement distance of 2"
You guys confuse absolute gun range with useful gun range. For example, WW1 era long rifle can easily reach a target 2-3 km away - there is only teeny tiny issue of almost no human being capable of making that shot without years of training, current optics, and absolute best sight/math ability in top 1% of recruits. In practice, in WW1 said gun was used at distance of 100-200 meters. That's why today big, heavy, expensive rifle bullets are completely abandoned outside of sniper rifles and modern assault rifle uses bullets half the size - why bother paying for performance if no one uses it anyway?
So, yeah, if anything realistic ranges should be short, especially if a tank has bad optics or poorly trained crew. Paper gun range is completely meaningless without ability to actually use it. Do compare range of pre-Dreadnought 280 mm guns from 1890s with the range of identical calibre of even 1930s gun - we're literally talking about 3 km vs 30 km difference, even though on paper there isn't even remotely that much, because ability to actually hit things got that much better. 3 km incidentally is also the maximum range of 7.92 mm battle rifle, so there you actually have RL example of your ""unrealistic"" HH ranges
tauist wrote: And before we get to the "uhh the ranges are supposed to be abstract" then explain to me why some unit can run up to a target almost as far as the max range of their shooting weapons in one friggin turn It just doesn't add up
Space marines are capable of superhuman sprint. SM covering a pistol range distance in one turn is exactly what should happen. But yeah, that doesn't explain why regular humans and other slow stuff can do that too
tauist wrote: If a battle cannon has a range of 24", basic infantry should have a movement distance of 2"
You guys confuse absolute gun range with useful gun range. For example, WW1 era long rifle can easily reach a target 2-3 km away - there is only teeny tiny issue of almost no human being capable of making that shot without years of training, current optics, and absolute best sight/math ability in top 1% of recruits. In practice, in WW1 said gun was used at distance of 100-200 meters. That's why today big, heavy, expensive rifle bullets are completely abandoned outside of sniper rifles and modern assault rifle uses bullets half the size - why bother paying for performance if no one uses it anyway?
So, yeah, if anything realistic ranges should be short, especially if a tank has bad optics or poorly trained crew. Paper gun range is completely meaningless without ability to actually use it. Do compare range of pre-Dreadnought 280 mm guns from 1890s with the range of identical calibre of even 1930s gun - we're literally talking about 3 km vs 30 km difference, even though on paper there isn't even remotely that much, because ability to actually hit things got that much better. 3 km incidentally is also the maximum range of 7.92 mm battle rifle, so there you actually have RL example of your ""unrealistic"" HH ranges
Even considering all that, the gun ranges are absurdly short in game. 100m if models are 1 inch tall should be ~50 inches in game.
Tank engagement ranges from WW2, even without modern sighting technologies and gun stabilisation and whatnot, were of the order of 200m to 800m, depending on which tanks we're talking about, which theatre of war, which period, etc. Tanks that had more penetrating power at longer ranges had a vested interest in engaging at as long a range as possible.
This is pretty pedantic, considering nobody in the GW rules team has the slightest interest in military history, or indeed any military experience at all they didn't glean from reading other 40k books or similarly distorted media. Indeed, 40k tanks are to real tanks what pugs are to wolves: the distorted wheezing products of generations and generations of inbreeding
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Even considering all that, the gun ranges are absurdly short in game. 100m if models are 1 inch tall should be 100 inches in game.
Only if you think infantry represent people who are 1m tall - if we assume a 6' infantryman is 1" tall, then 100m would work out at 54.6".
Agamemnon2 wrote: This is pretty pedantic, considering nobody in the GW rules team has the slightest interest in military history...
I would contend that's not true. The short ranges go back to the early days, and many of the rules writers from those early days were and are indeed greatly interested in military history. The short ranges, IMO, simply come from wanting to have a certain scale model, played on a certain sized table, but still have differentiation in weapon ranges. The game is also played in a fantastical way, with soldiers running out across open areas when in reality they'd be hunkered down in cover.
But this whole discussion started from Battle Cannons having 24" range or something, showing an inconsistency as even in the world of imaginary GW ranges a battle cannon should have a long-ish range... the discussion just wandered off into ranges generally.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Even considering all that, the gun ranges are absurdly short in game. 100m if models are 1 inch tall should be 100 inches in game.
Only if you think infantry represent people who are 1m tall - if we assume a 6' infantryman is 1" tall, then 100m would work out at 54.6".
Yeah sorry, I ninja edited my post but you must have hit reply before I fixed it. Brain too tired after work (where I ironically work as an engineer ).
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Even considering all that, the gun ranges are absurdly short in game. 100m if models are 1 inch tall should be 100 inches in game.
Only if you think infantry represent people who are 1m tall - if we assume a 6' infantryman is 1" tall, then 100m would work out at 54.6".
The older editions of WFB had a note on scale in the rulebook; basically all horizontal distances should be assumed to be around ten times what they’re shown as in the text to be “in scale” because they didn’t feel like requiring the game to be played in a car park or warehouse was really a viable option.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Even considering all that, the gun ranges are absurdly short in game. 100m if models are 1 inch tall should be 100 inches in game.
Only if you think infantry represent people who are 1m tall - if we assume a 6' infantryman is 1" tall, then 100m would work out at 54.6".
The older editions of WFB had a note on scale in the rulebook; basically all horizontal distances should be assumed to be around ten times what they’re shown as in the text to be “in scale” because they didn’t feel like requiring the game to be played in a car park or warehouse was really a viable option.
Ranges in 40k made a lot more sense back in the Rogue Trader / early 2nd edition days when anything bigger than man-portable infantry support weapons or the occasional emplacement gun was a rare sight and the heaviest stuff you saw regularly on the table were dreadnoughts and terminators. The differentiation between long and short range bands, combined with to-hit modifiers for cover and concealment, stuff like bolter drill, smoke grenades and so on worked reasonably well for the intense short-range firefights between infantry patrols, characters and light vehicles the game was mainly meant to represent back then. The focus shifted farther and farhter away from that over the years, and nowadays the ranges make a lot less sense when flyers, knights or even titans are a common enough occurence on the battlefield.
I'd have prefered jump troops and seekers aswell as corresponding upgrade sprues but, he , it's the equivalent of the Sturmtiger in 30k, which tbh in plastic i think is awesome but yeah, i'd have prefered plastic Seekers, jumppack users, upgrade sprues for melee and terminator weapons aswell as combi weapons and bikers and anti-grav vehicles which i value as more important than another superheavy / borderline superheavy like the kratos.
I wasn't expecting this kit, but at the same time, they could have thrown in the parts for the Cerberus while they were at it, that way Forge World could retire their Spartan moulds entirely.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yes Please Santa, I’ll Have Three, to directly quote notorious Treadhead Ian Pickstock.
i am concerned about your wallet.
and or credit card(s).
considering i somehow ended up aswell with an armored Alpha legion spearhead though, understandable, now if only i had the bloody time to build and paint.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yes Please Santa, I’ll Have Three, to directly quote notorious Treadhead Ian Pickstock.
i am concerned about your wallet.
and or credit card(s).
Sans Kids, sans Pets, sans other half? Bugger all else to spend my money on 🤣🤣
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agamemnon2 wrote: I wasn't expecting this kit, but at the same time, they could have thrown in the parts for the Cerberus while they were at it, that way Forge World could retire their Spartan moulds entirely.
Cerberus will almost certainly be coming now, for the very reason you said.
Wasn’t expecting this to be a dual kit though, as the necessary gubbins are likely a frame or two unto themselves.
Give me time! Got a Cost of Living bonus coming this month, which being all tough and manly and Scottish and stingy with the central heating might become more plastic….
Currently thinking another three Contemptors and maybe a brace of Leviathans. Or four Contemptors, with the fourth being Extra Fancy for Fury of the Ancients…
Well, the Valrak rumour is now right for the first two of three, so it seems like Jetbikes are coming soonish.
I think we might have to accept there are probably business reasons why GW wants to stop doing HH tanks through FW and they are simply higher priority than troops.
I would imagine the return rates on tanks for warped parts was higher on the tanks for a start.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Give me time! Got a Cost of Living bonus coming this month, which being all tough and manly and Scottish and stingy with the central heating might become more plastic….
Currently thinking another three Contemptors and maybe a brace of Leviathans. Or four Contemptors, with the fourth being Extra Fancy for Fury of the Ancients…
Bah my cost of living bonus was an annual 2% payrise back at the end of the tax year with a "be thankful you got that", you've got a good employer there.
No disputing that. Things have been rough the past couple of years, but we’ve a new, permanent High Heedyin and things are finally moving again.
Also gonna donate part of the CoL to a charity, as it seems the right thing to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Phazer wrote: Well, the Valrak rumour is now right for the first two of three, so it seems like Jetbikes are coming soonish.
I think we might have to accept there are probably business reasons why GW wants to stop doing HH tanks through FW and they are simply higher priority than troops.
I would imagine the return rates on tanks for warped parts was higher on the tanks for a start.
I’d imagine Tanks not only take longer to pour and set due to higher part count, but due to the chunkiness, have a higher miscast rate than infantry.
Whilst I’ve never had FW Horror myself (the odd small air bubble and warpage aside), and feel it might be a bit over egged, there have to be castings which get binned because of foul ups?
Gert wrote: Seekers are just normal Marine models with fancy Boltguns. You could literally just paint them with a different scheme and they'd be Seekers.
which would lack a lot of combi weapons and equipment. But yeah if GW were to realise a combi-weapon / kraken boltgun set then sure, one could use any type of marine.
Which actually would suit me well, but we would still need jumppacks.
Theophony wrote: So when the gunner drops down the hatch is he actually in the barrel? I mean I know Marines are known for their flexibility
Its a fairly stubby gun, so there's some suspension of disbelief that he's squeezing through the loading space.
Its not as bad as some of the predator guns, where the space under the hatch _is_ the vent for the main gun.
H.B.M.C. wrote: One day they'll remember that close combat is a thing in HH, and that infantry play a big role in that part of the game.
On the day they remember that close combat is a thing we'll get a melee weapon upgrade sprue for the Mk.II tank commander and still be out of infantry options.
Theophony wrote: So when the gunner drops down the hatch is he actually in the barrel? I mean I know Marines are known for their flexibility
No, the top hatch is not in line with the barrel. If you'd just looked for a shot of the resin kit you could have ascertained this for yourself. But perhaps you felt that your weak attempts at wit were too important to sully with facts?
Well with plastic not always being same as resin version it could be possible gw screwed up(they aren't exactly best at designing sensible designs) so resin kit looking is pretty irrelevant.
However careful look of the relevant kit(plastic) picture suggests it's slightly to right of the barrel.
Geifer wrote: On the day they remember that close combat is a thing we'll get a melee weapon upgrade sprue for the Mk.II tank commander and still be out of infantry options.
"Introducing: Assault Tanks, the next step forward in close assault armour!"
And it's literally just a sword part to give to the pintle gunner.
Erm, no. It has a gun. If anything, it's a Brummbär. Sturmtiger was stupidly armed with rocket assisted depth charge projector (Yes, that thing that is used to attack submarines. On land. No, like most of Nazi designs it doesn't make any sense.). Though, funnily enough, GW designers kept holes in "barrel" Sturmtiger had, without understanding what they were for or the fact that drilling them in real cannon barrel would cause it to burst, go figure...
H.B.M.C. wrote: One day they'll remember that close combat is a thing in HH, and that infantry play a big role in that part of the game
Primaris: first time?
Agamemnon2 wrote: No, the top hatch is not in line with the barrel. If you'd just looked for a shot of the resin kit you could have ascertained this for yourself. But perhaps you felt that your weak attempts at wit were too important to sully with facts?
Facts, in case you actually want some, is that this gun would need a ridiculously heavy recoil system and mounts - here, have a real life gun of similar caliber where they tried to reduce width by as much as possible by mounting recoil dampeners above and under the gun (which can't be done in Typhon, too low for that - and before someone says the small cylinders are supposed to be dampeners, too tiny and there are just two of them when below smaller gun has four bigger ones, unless Typhon has really small powder charge which funnily enough would fit 24 inch range) and yet the mountings nearly tripled the width of the gun. So, yeah, hatch might not be 'technically' right above the barrel but it's still right where the mount would be:
Speaking of the hatch, though, never mind the gun, how the hell the commander actually goes inside? Pauldrons make him way too wide to enter, does he discard them each time he needs to duck inside?
Considering the cartoon aesthetics of the 40k toy line, that's a bizarre hill to want to do die on. GW has generally not cared about tank commander pauldrons that much. The original Razorback gunner has a special jumbo-sized hatch to climb out of, whereas some figures, like the original Vindicator gunner, were depicted without pauldrons entirely. But since then, they've generally just given Marine tanks the standard Imperial sized crew hatches
Agamemnon2 wrote: Considering the cartoon aesthetics of the 40k toy line, that's a bizarre hill to want to do die on. GW has generally not cared about tank commander pauldrons that much. The original Razorback gunner has a special jumbo-sized hatch to climb out of, whereas some figures, like the original Vindicator gunner, were depicted without pauldrons entirely. But since then, they've generally just given Marine tanks the standard Imperial sized crew hatches
And the Mk II tank crewer has extra detail on the arms if the pauldrons are left off. I actually find it easier to shave down a bit of the detail when I attach the pauldrons so they glue better.
Bolters and Baneblades both have self propelled rounds. Typhon can easily be the same way.
Erm, no. It has a gun. If anything, it's a Brummbär. Sturmtiger was stupidly armed with rocket assisted depth charge projector (Yes, that thing that is used to attack submarines. On land. No, like most of Nazi designs it doesn't make any sense.). Though, funnily enough, GW designers kept holes in "barrel" Sturmtiger had, without understanding what they were for or the fact that drilling them in real cannon barrel would cause it to burst, go figure...
H.B.M.C. wrote: One day they'll remember that close combat is a thing in HH, and that infantry play a big role in that part of the game
Primaris: first time?
Eh its pretty in line with the Sturmtiger, if its shells are rocket assisted than those holes in the barrel would assist the rocket in launching, plus they'd help reduce its weight.
TO BE FAIR, the Primaris issue was a lack of sheets. The models have been there whenever the units have existed, the issue has just been an utter lack of melee sheets for them to use.
In other news, seems like jetbikes have finally gone OOP at FW; Plastic jetbikes imminent?
Skipping that Typhon, not a fan of the model. The only Land Raider variant I'm interested in anymore is a Helios, and those were dropped in 2.0, correct?
For what it's worth, the Marine Jetbikes have vanished from the Forge World site. That happened with the Typhon before they showed off the plastic one.
tauist wrote: In other news, seems like jetbikes have finally gone OOP at FW; Plastic jetbikes imminent?
Skipping that Typhon, not a fan of the model. The only Land Raider variant I'm interested in anymore is a Helios, and those were dropped in 2.0, correct?
Unfortunately yes, it's not even in legends.
I love mine and used it basically every game of 8th I played.
Ooh I would be very interested in some plastic jetbikes.
What do we think the pricing of them will be? The newst 1st born bikes are the ravenwing and they're $77AUD, the primaris Outriders are $98AUD, so i'd place a set of 3 jetbikes at about $110-115AUD. Way overpriced, but plastic and hopefully come with all the options.
Whatever it is, it'll have to be cheaper than the old ones cost. I wanted to go back and check the prices, but the modern FW website really doesn't like the wayback machine, it seems.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Whatever it is, it'll have to be cheaper than the old ones cost. I wanted to go back and check the prices, but the modern FW website really doesn't like the wayback machine, it seems.
Think they were £35 each, 3 for £90, so there is a lot of room to be cheaper but still very expensive!
One tank they could do that is VERY possible is the Legion Glaive / Legion Falchion would be a cash cow for GW ...One box all options like the Baneblade..However many people just get baneblades and Shadowswords and Doomhammers because of the Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF that was released..
Agamemnon2 wrote: Whatever it is, it'll have to be cheaper than the old ones cost. I wanted to go back and check the prices, but the modern FW website really doesn't like the wayback machine, it seems.
Bout 45€ apiece, which is why I instead bought a 500€ printer when I needed 12 of them for my list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm very, very interested to see plastic jetbikes as this will finally let us know if the riders are getting upscaled, and if they are, are the bikes getting upscaled also or are bigger riders being crammed into the same space as before.
BalerionTheBlackDread wrote: One tank they could do that is VERY possible is the Legion Glaive / Legion Falchion would be a cash cow for GW ...One box all options like the Baneblade..However many people just get baneblades and Shadowswords and Doomhammers because of the Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF that was released..
Fellblade/Glaive would be a nice kit, but would be a lot of new sprues. Only things they could reuse would be the spartan sponsons and tank accessories. Right now, most the new vehicles coming out are just single extra sprues or sprue swaps on the deimos rhino or spartan hulls. Maybe a Sicaran turret sprue later as well.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Whatever it is, it'll have to be cheaper than the old ones cost. I wanted to go back and check the prices, but the modern FW website really doesn't like the wayback machine, it seems.
Bout 45€ apiece, which is why I instead bought a 500€ printer when I needed 12 of them for my list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm very, very interested to see plastic jetbikes as this will finally let us know if the riders are getting upscaled, and if they are, are the bikes getting upscaled also or are bigger riders being crammed into the same space as before.
Custodes Jetbikes are 47,50€ for three w/character options, while Primaris Excursor are 50€/ three without a lot of options, so it's probably in that ballpark depending on how many options and alternate builds the box contains. If they go five to a box with options it'll probably 75-85€ per box. At worst it'll be 100€ for 5 w/ character options etc. included.
Base kit plus extra sprue certainly seems to be GW's MO for the new Heresy kits. I think the only models so far that haven't followed this pattern are the two Preators, the Sicaran and the Kratos. And I'd be surprised if the two tanks don't have variants released in the future, especially the Sicaran as FW could retire its version.
Jetbikes could be the first non character exception to the trend though. Unless the weapon options are spread over a couple of kits like the Dreads and Predators?
A Fellblade would be great. But I think GW will want to push the Spartan and Kratos types as centrepiece models for a while yet. But who knows what the future holds? Four or five years ago this whole product line would have sounded like a massive wishlist.
I'd say these are long shots, but GW could be dual-kitting (or alternate sprueing) Sky Hunters with the return of Sky Seekers or give plastics for the Subjugator Cadres or Agamatus Squadrons.
Since GW has stayed pretty accurate to the resins, I think the Agamatus is out. Sky Seekers probably would have made it into the core book if they were getting models, so Subjugators seem the most likely.
Since there wasn't a model for them before, their bikes could - to a point, at least - be based off the scimitar jetbike. Use one sprue (or two) for the core of the bike, shared between the Sky Hunter and Subjugator boxes, and then add in a unique sprue (or two) for the front of the bike, rider, and weapon options.
BalerionTheBlackDread wrote: One tank they could do that is VERY possible is the Legion Glaive / Legion Falchion would be a cash cow for GW ...One box all options like the Baneblade..However many people just get baneblades and Shadowswords and Doomhammers because of the Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF that was released..
Fellblade/Glaive would be a nice kit, but would be a lot of new sprues. Only things they could reuse would be the spartan sponsons and tank accessories. Right now, most the new vehicles coming out are just single extra sprues or sprue swaps on the deimos rhino or spartan hulls. Maybe a Sicaran turret sprue later as well.
This is the way I think it will go as well... The upgrage sprues being the way to go and yes I agree seeing as watching TTT's assembly of a Fellblade looked simple even if he swapped out the hull for a plastic Baneblade one (Although I think it came with it not sure) so I can see them sticking with the Forgeworld one because as you said the sprues would need to be entirely new.
However I reckon we might be seeing Destroyer or Assault squad upgrade frames at some point..Jetbikes may be a way ways off I do like the upgrade frames that are coming for legion specific upgrades but I am sourcing a lot of my shoulder pads from Etsy for a far cheaper price if thats a path you wish to go down to save money..
BalerionTheBlackDread wrote: One tank they could do that is VERY possible is the Legion Glaive / Legion Falchion would be a cash cow for GW ...One box all options like the Baneblade..However many people just get baneblades and Shadowswords and Doomhammers because of the Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF that was released..
Fellblade/Glaive would be a nice kit, but would be a lot of new sprues. Only things they could reuse would be the spartan sponsons and tank accessories. Right now, most the new vehicles coming out are just single extra sprues or sprue swaps on the deimos rhino or spartan hulls. Maybe a Sicaran turret sprue later as well.
This is the way I think it will go as well... The upgrage sprues being the way to go and yes I agree seeing as watching TTT's assembly of a Fellblade looked simple even if he swapped out the hull for a plastic Baneblade one (Although I think it came with it not sure) so I can see them sticking with the Forgeworld one because as you said the sprues would need to be entirely new.
However I reckon we might be seeing Destroyer or Assault squad upgrade frames at some point..Jetbikes may be a way ways off I do like the upgrade frames that are coming for legion specific upgrades but I am sourcing a lot of my shoulder pads from Etsy for a far cheaper price if thats a path you wish to go down to save money..
The fw Fellblade kit all uses the plastic Baneblade inner hull. They didn't "swap" it.
Tsagualsa wrote: Custodes Jetbikes are 47,50€ for three w/character options, while Primaris Excursor are 50€/ three without a lot of options, so it's probably in that ballpark depending on how many options and alternate builds the box contains. If they go five to a box with options it'll probably 75-85€ per box. At worst it'll be 100€ for 5 w/ character options etc. included.
I think 3 to a box seems the most likely, though as regular bolter guys now only come 20 to a box, perhaps that is a foolish assumption?
Agamemnon2 wrote: I think 3 to a box seems the most likely, though as regular bolter guys now only come 20 to a box, perhaps that is a foolish assumption?
2 to a box, Mournfang Cavalry style* for 1.45x the cost of current Shining Spears.
I have nothing to base this on.
*Their original release, that is, before they were reboxed.
I dunno.
Maybe I’d prefer more, shallower cuts that looked like actual designs? Currently the helmets look like they have poorly repaired battle damage.
The shoulders are much better, and the raised rim around the flame is neat.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Just wait: The Alpha Legion ones will be 10 identical helmetless bald heads.
Nah, it’ll be two sets of five identical heads that are actually mirrored. And one super-fancy helmet.
No, the Alpha Legion pack will just be a bundle pack of all the heads released for the other legions.
Anyway, I think the problem I have with some of these different head upgrades is that they're trying too hard to still match up with the beakie style. The helmet is one part where a legion could have pretty much done their own custom job and made it look like anything.
troops we need to finish our armies!
