Geemoney wrote: I don't see how 400 points for the Big Mek stompa is overpriced when Imperial Knights are 375 - 425. I get they have half the hull points but they have better shooting, higher initiative, and invul save. And don't get me started on Wraith Knights....
I think 400 points is more or less a fair point cost, anything more than that and they will not see play anymore.
Because in GW eyes humans are the heroes and armies like orks only sparring partners that are not suppose to be succesful. Eldar have their moment now, like necrons a few years a go, but SM will always be among top 2-3. For GW a stompa should cost 770 points, and an army that is supposed to be an horde doesn't have a formation that spam free vehicles. But SM, an army that should be composed by elites, have free vehicles so they can easily outnumber armies like orks when it should happen the opposite. I don't care if we don't get a super solid codex, I love orks and 40k for what they are, but you shouldn't be surprised if they consider that stompa a mistake and overpriced.
I will say I care if Orks get a strong Codex, because I sincerely want every Codex in the game to be strong. I LOATHE a competitive scene dominated by 3-4 armies, and would really enjoy actually seeing a Dark Eldar (for example) army, once in a while... and no... no just a formation of them borrowed by their Eldar cousins. :-p
Not sure about the looted wagons + rokkits. A little More than the trukks for only 1 point better armor and 1 rokkit hit per turn, but looses obsec.
I'm wondering about putting max grots on the lobbas with a mek, an having them run across the board for a lot of t7 objective camping fun. only shoot the lobbas when they get somewhere good.
Not sure about the looted wagons + rokkits. A little More than the trukks for only 1 point better armor and 1 rokkit hit per turn, but looses obsec.
I'm wondering about putting max grots on the lobbas with a mek, an having them run across the board for a lot of t7 objective camping fun. only shoot the lobbas when they get somewhere good.
So in that case you could lead with 3 grots, then the Lobba, then the last grot then finally the mek. Saves for the most part would be unnecessary, T7 protects them well. Honestly though with this list, the MAWB and boyz will be taking/contesting their objectives so the Lobbas just need to squat on yours. I'm not concerned about losing ObSec on the Wagons, they are disposable. The Wagons also have a Str 8 Ram with RR.
I won an Oldhammer Tourney Today with Ork Trukk Rush.
My list:
Spoiler:
Ork CAD:
Mek
Mek
Warboss (Mega Armor, Da Lucky Stikk) aka Tanky McTankerson
Warboss (Eavy Armor, Da Finkin Kap, Power Klaw, Shoota) * Warlord
3 Meganobz (1 Killsaws, Boss Pole, 1 Kombi-Skorcha) in a trukk (Ram)
5 tankbustas in a trukk (Ram)
5 tankbustas in a trukk (Ram)
9 Boyz + Nob (Power Klaw, Shoota, Boss Pole) in a trukk (Ram) <- Lucky boss goes here
9 Boyz + Nob (Power Klaw, Shoota, Boss Pole) in a trukk (Ram) <- Mek + Warlord goes here
9 Boyz + Nob (Power Klaw, Shoota, Boss Pole) in a trukk (Ram) <- Mek goes here
9 Boyz + Nob (Power Klaw, Shoota, Boss Pole) in a trukk (Ram)
I played an Ork player in round 1. He had a Painboy, Warboss, Mek, and 8 meganobz in a battle wagon. 10 Flashgitz in a trukk. 2 Trukks full of boyz, a dakkajet, and a Deff dread. It obviously wasn't all that competitive of a list. Mission was Crusade Dawn of War Deployment.
I went 1st, and deployed everything. He castled up using the trukks with boyz to bubble wrap the flash gitz and Battle Wagon. My alpha strike was incredibly lucky. I shot my buggies at one trukk to take a hull point off, then killed it with a unit of tankbustas for the glory hog bonus. My 2nd unit of tankbustas managed to take 2 hull points off another trukk, and one squad of lootas finished it off. My other squad of lootas shot at the last trukk and imobilized it. My lobbas then killed a bunch of the boyz. On his turn. The boyz in front of the wagon rolled double 1's for move through cover. Between them, terrain, and the immobilized trukk his batlewagon was completely blocked in. It was obvious that I had it at the top of 2. I finished off the final trukk, and he conceded, because I was about to kill off the flash gitz, and leave him with just 1 squad of Manz. I still had all of my PK's, and would have made quick work of them.
Round 2:
Spoiler:
I faced an IG list. Pask punisher + demolisher buddy. Eradicator, 4 Taurox with vets inside (3 special weapons each), Saint Celestein, and another squad of vets with cammo in ruins with an Autocannon, and most frightening, 2 wyverns. The mission was emperor's will.
I was pretty sure I had this one as soon as I won the roll to go 1st. I deployed agressively, and he counter deployed me well. So my lootas primarily had to move, and snap shooting they only immobilized one Taurox. All the rest of my trukks moved foward 24". His Turn 1 was a bloodbath. All 4 trukks with boyz died to basically the 1st thing that shot at them with 3 of the 4 exploding. My warlord was left with 2 boyz and a Wounded nob, and they ran away (stupid mob rule). One boyz squad was reduced to only 2 boyz and no nob, but they didn't run. My Luckystick boss failed his pinning check and mob rule didn't save him. He did tank most everything, but being pinned was awful. My last squad of boyz was reduced to 2 boyz and a nob. Ug. Bad turn. To top it all off Celestein managed to charge and kill my warlord. My turn 2, I did what I could. My Manz were my only intact unit, and so they killed pask and the demolisher. My tankbustas and lootas popped 2 Tauroxes, and my lobbas kill one squad of vets that came out. My 2 boyz and nob were just enough to assault and kill the vets in the ruins, but I lost the boyz doing it. On his turn Celestien killed the lobbas. The remaining Tauroxes and vets, and russ put all of their firepower into my lucky stikk boss's unit reducing it to the Boss, and a wounded nob. I had 2 boyz from one squad and a nob from another and my 3 buggies went after the wyvrens. Shaking 1, but not killing any. My lootas killed a taurox. My boss joined some tankbuster to kill a unit of vets. My Manz killed the final taurox, and my last squad of tankbustas took the turret off of the Eradicator.
Celestien tried to multi-assault the lootas, but I overwatched both of her guardians to death, so she only got 1 squad. The wyverns, and remaining vets went after the Manz, and left them with 2 wounded models. The game was over at this point (bottom of 3), but my opponent didn't really accept that. My Warboss cleaned up the vets. the Manz cleaned up the Wyverns. All he had left was celestein. My buggies, and 3 remaining trukks (one containing a wounded nob) headed back to my objective, and menaced celestein a bit. Celestein killed the last of the lootas. Turn 5, I turbo-boosed a buggy, and 2 trukks including the one with the ob sec nob onto my objective. Celestein killed the trukk and the nob inside it. Game went on. I turbo boosted another trukk on the the objective. Celestein killed a trukk. Game went on. I put my last trukk on the objective. Celestein killed a warbuggy. So my objective was contested by a buggy and a trukk. His objective was mine. I won.
Game 3:
Spoiler:
I'm at top table playing an eclectic space wolf list. Honestly I didn't think his list was very good, and expected it to be an easy game. He had Cypher. A wolflord with runic armor. 3 units of Grey hunters all in pods, a big unit of Longfangs with missile launchers, and a Landraider with 5 wulfen inside. (The Wulfen had no upgrades). Mission was the Relic. He gave me 1st turn. I wanted 1st blood, and all he had on the table were the longfangs, and the Land raider, so I poured everything into the longfangs including all of the trukks. I killed 6, and the 2 survivors ran, but I didn't get the unit. On his turn, he brought in 2 pods including the one with cypher and the wolflord. He killed 1 squad of lootas, 2 Trukks (both warbosses), and killed my warlord's entire unit leaving him with 1 wound left.
My turn 2, I was feeling great. Nobody ran. Nobody was pinned, so I join my warlord with some boyz and prepped to assault cypher. Meanwhile my MANZ killed the landraider, and my Lucky stikk squad killed the grey hunters without characters. I also killed a drop pod with some boyz, and 5 of the marines with cypher. I charged cypher with 9 boyz, a Mek, a nob, and a wounded warboss. I lose 4 boyz to overwatch, and everyone else died before they got a chance to swing in CC. Wow. That didn't go well. On his 2, he brought in the other grey hunters, and between them and cypher's unit killed everyone with the Lucky stikk boss, and put 1 wound on him. The wulfen killed an empty trukk. My MANz took care of the wulfen. I joined my Lucky stikk boss to my last unit of boyzs, and setup to charge cypher's unit. My shooting reduced the grey hunters to 6 marines who failed leadership.
So here we go, a 2nd charge on cypher with 8 boyz, a nob, and MA Lucky stikk boss. He does 5 wounds to me with overwatch including 2 AP2's. I was an idiot and put my nob right next to the warboss, so I had to LOS the ap2 wounds onto him, and he died. Critical mistake. I charge in. Cypher challenges, I need my warboss to swing so I accept. Cypher kills my warboss, and only 2 boyz get to swing. They lose combat and get swept. Ugg. I'm out of boyz. Just Tankbustas, Lootas and MANZ, and lots of vehicles. MANZ move towards the relic. everything shoots at cypher's unit. It's down to 3 grey hunters, cypher and the wolf lord. On his turn he breaks that unit apart, and tries to kill 2 trukks and a buggy with the parts. Takes the rokkit off of the buggy, kill the tankbustas trukk, and take 1 hull point off a trukk. The other grey hunters kill a trukk which explodes killing 3 bustas. So Cypher is scary to the Manz. But the Wulflord with a power sword isn't, so I kill him. I shoot down all buy one of the grey hunters with cypher. I use a series of tank shocks to group up the other grey hunters, and hit them with the lobbas doing 18!! wounds. (3 live). Cypher also takes a wound from something.
It's the bottom of 4 and we get a 15 min warning, but agree to play through 5. He runs his 3 obsec grey hunters onto the relic. He joins cypher to the last grey hunter, and kill 1 manz in shooting, then charge the other two. Thankfully cypher's luck runs out. He only does 1 wound to a manz, and they obliterate him. So on my turn 5 I have to finish the 3 obsec grey hunters on the relic. I tank shock them twice to move them next to my manz for any easy charge, and finish them. He's got 2 pods left, but they can't move so I win.
Whew. This was surprisingly close. I definitely underestimated cypher and the wolf lord. I still had a bunch of empty trukks, but only one was ob sec, and he had bottom of turn, so I was worried about losing the relic to him.
So I'm 3-0, the only one, and take to top prize (Ren man).
Some final thoughts:
- My MANZ missile had a malfunction. I had meganobz left at the end of all 3 games. That's not supposed to happen.
- Trukk rush is so fun to play. I would have been toasted in kill points, but thankfully that mission didn't come up, and if it had, I probably could have tabled my opponents.
- In an Oldhammer environment, Orks can do quite well. I've won both oldhammer tourneys I've played.
- Celestein and Caul both showed up at the event, and neither of them died. Ug. GW why do you suck at rules? If I had put effort into it I could have put down celestein once, but I doubt I'd have enough left for a 2nd run at her, especially if she tried to stay alive.
Great tournament man, congratulations! And yes, celestine is immortal, cawl very tough too, but that lady is impossible to kill. Without the chance to resuscitate one of her bodyguards every turn a herself once a game maybe, but with the actual rules you can't kill her, you should force her to assault expendable units that block her way.
Wulfen with no upgrades? Oh my. A 5 man wulfen unit with typical loadout costs 230 points and can wipe out in a single turn the entire bullyboyz formation. Wulfen and thunderwolves are way better in close combat than orks best melee units, a general advise is to shoot at them with everything you have and, like celestine, force them to assault expendable units.
No Formations.
No Super Heavies
No other detachments.
Our attendee satisfaction level at these events is astronomical compared to other formats we run.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Wulfen with no upgrades? Oh my. A 5 man wulfen unit with typical loadout costs 230 points and can wipe out in a single turn the entire bullyboyz formation. Wulfen and thunderwolves are way better in close combat than orks best melee units, a general advise is to shoot at them with everything you have and, like celestine, force them to assault expendable units.
Yeah, that was my plan. I've fought alot of wulfen, and most of them tend to be TH + SS. A few have been Wolf Claws or axes. Usually I shoot them to death or sacrifice a squad to die with them, but with no upgrades at all they just made my MANZ make a pile of saves which I can do on a 2+.
Im currently playing a campaign, and a few of the missions are kill team ones. I've used bikes, boyz and deffkoptas to some success, but lately keep getting shot off the board.
My main opponent is either GK jump troop squad with a flamer (which im not super worried about, can go either way) and Necron Warriors backed up by the Jetbikes.
The bikes are the real killer. 3+/5+Re save jetbikes, with a twinlinked S6 AP4 Ignores Cover gun.
Its like the design team put them in to specifically counter Ork bikes/jetbikes.
Backed up by the warriors, i've been getting crushed.
My favorite kill team is 5 burnaz and the rest of points in shoota boyz. I don't use the trukks, so I end up with like 17 boyz. Elite units can't get close to the burnaz, and if they do... hey, we have a power weapon!
I've also had it where they will charge a boy and kill it, only to be in range to eat a lot of shooting the following turn.
Anpu-adom wrote: My favorite kill team is 5 burnaz and the rest of points in shoota boyz. I don't use the trukks, so I end up with like 17 boyz. Elite units can't get close to the burnaz, and if they do... hey, we have a power weapon!
I've also had it where they will charge a boy and kill it, only to be in range to eat a lot of shooting the following turn.
I've played one Deffkopta and the rest either all Lootas or all Tankbustas on foot.
The AP3 and Str 8 doubles out most opponents models.
Anpu-adom wrote: My favorite kill team is 5 burnaz and the rest of points in shoota boyz. I don't use the trukks, so I end up with like 17 boyz. Elite units can't get close to the burnaz, and if they do... hey, we have a power weapon!
I've also had it where they will charge a boy and kill it, only to be in range to eat a lot of shooting the following turn.
I've played one Deffkopta and the rest either all Lootas or all Tankbustas on foot.
The AP3 and Str 8 doubles out most opponents models.
I don't think you can take Lootas in Kill Teams anymore now that they're part of heavy support rather than an elites slot.
For me it was a mix of shoota boyz and bikerz. Boyz for the numbers (since Ld7 is pretty damn bad for break tests) and warbikerz are great for specialist rules like FNP.
About the "MAWB with 10 boyz in trukk" spam, I was thinking about the addition of a cybork body for every MAWB. A bit of MathHammer is needed here (maybe done before, sorry). Let's assume we forget about S10 and ID wounds, we want to LOS these anyway...
A MAWB with BP is 105 pts, with 3 wounds, so 35 pts per wound. A cybork body will save a wound 1 time out of 6. So it basically gives your WB half a wound, for a total of 3.5 wounds. That's 17.5 pts gained for the price of 5 pts.
If you have only 1 MAWB in your army, the cybork body won't probably be of any use. But in a 6- or 8-MAWB army, chances are you will save a few wounds via FNP. And most importantly save a MAWB!
That brings the unit price to 205 pts. That's manageable!
Here's a question I'd like to pose for everyone who has actually played Orks more than once in games bigger than Kill Team: let's say I can only get one Painboy in the immediate future, either as a blister pack or in the start collecting. Am I more likely to get better use out of him on foot, where he could accompany MANZ, huge Boy mob, etc., or on a bike? I'm willing to guess that the bike is the best bet as his unit will have +1 T and much better saves to stack with the FnP, but it's certainly a loss of versatility, in terms of how I build/convert the model.
Similarly, as I am planning on building a Warbiker unit of 8-10 models, is just a Klaw nob (and in all likelihood the Painboy) enough for CC, or should I also look towards getting a Warboss on a bike, too? Are Meks on bikes legal so I could bring a challenge surrogate? Any relevant info would be greatly appreciated.
KommissarKiln wrote: Here's a question I'd like to pose for everyone who has actually played Orks more than once in games bigger than Kill Team: let's say I can only get one Painboy in the immediate future, either as a blister pack or in the start collecting. Am I more likely to get better use out of him on foot, where he could accompany MANZ, huge Boy mob, etc., or on a bike?
Buying a bike for a painboy is very efficient. You not only get the mobility and Toughness bonus, but you turn a model with no shooting into a fairly decent shooter. Not worth his points for shooting alone, but decent. A biker painboy can also eat a challenge for an important power claw with some hopes of surviving.
That being said. You will only make use of a biker painboy if you are running warbikers or Deff koptas. If you are like me you won't always run those things.
The best answer to your question depends on the type of playstyle you'd like.
-If you want to focus on bikers and run a biker deathstar, you want a painboy on bike.
-If you want to run orks in transports you want a painboy on foot.
-If you want to walk orks across the table, you want a painboy on foot
Usually your painboy is essentially the partner to your warboss, and he goes where your warboss goes. So biker painboy means bikerboss. Walking painboy means walking boss.
The painboy should always go with a big unit to magnify his buff. If you have the money for a big biker unit, that seems best, but bikes are pricey.
His other great use is a green tide, and you can fill it with aobr boyz and crappily painted ones from fleabay. A lot of people don't like the tide but 100 boys with fnp is pretty nice.
I'm not all that sold on the green tide. It falls apart to MSU obsec because it can only hold one objective at a time. It gets in the way of both your opponent and you from contesting objectives. It also allows your opponent to concentrate firepower on one target, maximizing his fire output without having to worry about overkill or range. The VSG nerf was the final straw. I don't see anyway for a greentide to stand up to wk/scatspam, gladius, riptide/stormsurge tau, necrons, daemon flying circuses, barkstars/superfriends/deathstars, or any of the top competitive builds.
The only real strategy seems to be take the lead on objectives turn 1 by rushing the entire army up the board, and then having the time run out before you get tabled.
I hate the green tide as moving 100+ orks on foot in a single turn is unbearable. And I wouldn't pay even a single cent for crappily painted plastic miniatures
Painboys are very good with boyz in BW and bikes. They can be good with meganobz too but than the whole unit becomes too pricey, and boyz on foot are not worthy. They are very good with bikers too, but only if there's also a warboss in the same unit.
Biker mek is nice, but only if you like a moving KFF, otherwise a nob with a pk is better.
I like big units of bikers, usually 10 bikers with painboy and warboss, but there are many other ways to play them efficiently. I often run 3x7 bikes, all with nobz with pk and bp and they're very good, but also troop bikers with zhadsnark are solid and probably an autoinclude in any competitive list.
A single unit of 8-10 bikers with a nob is way better in shooting rather than fighting in close combat as they're basically a unit of trukk boyz. I'd avoid close combat with bikes, they are quite good to assault vehicles and enemy shooty units thanks to their speed. But against any decent close combat unit they're dead. With a painboy and a warboss they become killy also in close combat but they should always avoid strong melee units.
Do what I did: Buy an old metal painboy, use the arm and head to convert a biker into a painbiker, and use the rest of the body for a painboy on foot. Biker head with goggles works perfectly for the painboy on foot.
There you have it, 2 painboys for the price of one! You might be able to do it with the new plastic one.
Or you can convert some regular nobz into painboys, they just need the saw included in the same kit and to add a spike on a normal slugga in order to represent the urty syringe.
Green stuff to make the doktor mask or other bitz are nice but not needed. I used some spared part from my dark eldar kits, like some syringe from talos/cronos ichor injectors and arms and cleavers from the ogres box that i bought to convert them into grotesques. The nobz bosspole with the bones fits the character.
Same as the biker painboy, use a normal biker with the nobz torso and head included in the biker kit and convert a slugga into the urty syringe.
KommissarKiln wrote: Here's a question I'd like to pose for everyone who has actually played Orks more than once in games bigger than Kill Team: let's say I can only get one Painboy in the immediate future, either as a blister pack or in the start collecting. Am I more likely to get better use out of him on foot, where he could accompany MANZ, huge Boy mob, etc., or on a bike?
Buying a bike for a painboy is very efficient. You not only get the mobility and Toughness bonus, but you turn a model with no shooting into a fairly decent shooter. Not worth his points for shooting alone, but decent. A biker painboy can also eat a challenge for an important power claw with some hopes of surviving.
That being said. You will only make use of a biker painboy if you are running warbikers or Deff koptas. If you are like me you won't always run those things.
The best answer to your question depends on the type of playstyle you'd like.
-If you want to focus on bikers and run a biker deathstar, you want a painboy on bike.
-If you want to run orks in transports you want a painboy on foot.
-If you want to walk orks across the table, you want a painboy on foot
Usually your painboy is essentially the partner to your warboss, and he goes where your warboss goes. So biker painboy means bikerboss. Walking painboy means walking boss.
I add a PainBoy on Bike to foot units as well. Still gets the bonus to T and shooting and increases mobility within and between mobs. He can move 12" even if the boys only move 6 or less through difficult terrain. Unless it's Mad Dok Grotsnik in the Orcurion or PainBoyz with TankBustas in BW's, he's always on a bike.
About the "MAWB with 10 boyz in trukk" spam, I was thinking about the addition of a cybork body for every MAWB. A bit of MathHammer is needed here (maybe done before, sorry). Let's assume we forget about S10 and ID wounds, we want to LOS these anyway...
A MAWB with BP is 105 pts, with 3 wounds, so 35 pts per wound. A cybork body will save a wound 1 time out of 6. So it basically gives your WB half a wound, for a total of 3.5 wounds. That's 17.5 pts gained for the price of 5 pts.
If you have only 1 MAWB in your army, the cybork body won't probably be of any use. But in a 6- or 8-MAWB army, chances are you will save a few wounds via FNP. And most importantly save a MAWB!
That brings the unit price to 205 pts. That's manageable!
What do you guys think?
Your math is good and your argument is compelling on points per wound, but in my limited experience I'm not even using the Bosspoles and they'd hypothically save more points over the course of a game. The ability to LOSStr 10 and/or AP2 wounds on to a boy is free and more versatile. The FNP would be very situational: randomly allocated Str 9 or less wounds such as exploding vehicles OR during a challenge.
I'd guess I'd argue what's a better use of those points: FNP on one model or Bosspoles, OR both and having to drop a Lobba AND a Deffkopta (with 8 points leftover spare change).
PipeAlley wrote: I add a PainBoy on Bike to foot units as well. Still gets the bonus to T and shooting and increases mobility within and between mobs. He can move 12" even if the boys only move 6 or less through difficult terrain. Unless it's Mad Dok Grotsnik in the Orcurion or PainBoyz with TankBustas in BW's, he's always on a bike.
Clever! Per new FAQIIRC he can still turbo-boost while the boyz run, however he won't be able to shoot if they run. And would he stop the unit from being pinned? Open debate, according to discussions I've found (ex: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/678712.page).
Ashkayel wrote: About the "MAWB with 10 boyz in trukk" spam, I was thinking about the addition of a cybork body for every MAWB. A bit of MathHammer is needed here (maybe done before, sorry). Let's assume we forget about S10 and ID wounds, we want to LOS these anyway...
A MAWB with BP is 105 pts, with 3 wounds, so 35 pts per wound. A cybork body will save a wound 1 time out of 6. So it basically gives your WB half a wound, for a total of 3.5 wounds. That's 17.5 pts gained for the price of 5 pts.
If you have only 1 MAWB in your army, the cybork body won't probably be of any use. But in a 6- or 8-MAWB army, chances are you will save a few wounds via FNP. And most importantly save a MAWB!
That brings the unit price to 205 pts. That's manageable!
What do you guys think?
Your math is good and your argument is compelling on points per wound, but in my limited experience I'm not even using the Bosspoles and they'd hypothically save more points over the course of a game. The ability to LOSStr 10 and/or AP2 wounds on to a boy is free and more versatile. The FNP would be very situational: randomly allocated Str 9 or less wounds such as exploding vehicles OR during a challenge.
I'd guess I'd argue what's a better use of those points: FNP on one model or Bosspoles, OR both and having to drop a Lobba AND a Deffkopta (with 8 points leftover spare change).
A bosspole ups your chances of passing a pinning check from 88.9% to 92.6%, assuming you lost 2+ boyz to trukk explosion. And if you need to pass a morale check also (assuming you lost 3+ boyz to explosion/mob rule caused by pinning), you'll fail one or both tests 21.0% of the time without a bosspole, compared to 14.3% with one. I will gladly pay 5 pts for that extra 6.7% chances of staying put! But that's debatable.
Speaking of challenges, I was also looking at the benefits of adding a barebone nob to the MAWB trukks. For 10 pts, you get +1 S, W, I and A, a character to eat challenges while your MAWB stomps stuff (most important perk here) and also a character for mob rule if your MAWB leaves the unit at some point (an interesting +13.9% chances of passing morale). People are saying that meks are mandatory in competitve lists to eat challenges for your PK nobz, that would be ever more crucial for MAWB!
Of course, that ups the price of the fully kitted unit to 215 pts (BP, CB and barebone nob). I guess it really depends on your opponent (or your meta). If your opponent has a lot of AP2 that strikes at initiative (or even at I1), it might be worthwhile. But against that IG tank spam, that would be pretty useless.
When it comes to mek vs nob, I prefer the 10 point nob over the 15 point mek. Beefier in CC. The extra 5 points could give him a big choppa. If I'm giving the nob a klaw though, then throw in a mek.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, here's a funny list I thought up in the shower today.
CAD
Warboss - DFK, MA, BP, CB 120
Warboss - MA, BP, CB 110
2x 10 Boyz - Nob, Trukk, Rokkit, RR 210
Bullyboyz Formation
3x 5 MANz - Trukk, Rokkit, RR 705
Bullyboyz Formation
3x 5 MANz - Trukk, Rokkit, RR 705
1850
8 trukks, 30 MANz, 2 Bosses. Who wants to pay for it?
slip wrote: When it comes to mek vs nob, I prefer the 10 point nob over the 15 point mek. Beefier in CC. The extra 5 points could give him a big choppa. If I'm giving the nob a klaw though, then throw in a mek.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, here's a funny list I thought up in the shower today.
CAD
Warboss - DFK, MA, BP, CB 120
Warboss - MA, BP, CB 110
2x 10 Boyz - Nob, Trukk, Rokkit, RR 210
Bullyboyz Formation
3x 5 MANz - Trukk, Rokkit, RR 705
Bullyboyz Formation
3x 5 MANz - Trukk, Rokkit, RR 705
1850
8 trukks, 30 MANz, 2 Bosses. Who wants to pay for it?
I like it but I barely have enough MANZ to run a single BullyBoyz formation. I'd love to see it on the table though.
slip wrote: When it comes to mek vs nob, I prefer the 10 point nob over the 15 point mek. Beefier in CC. The extra 5 points could give him a big choppa. If I'm giving the nob a klaw though, then throw in a mek.
Also, here's a funny list I thought up in the shower today.
CAD
Warboss - DFK, MA, BP, CB 120
Warboss - MA, BP, CB 110
2x 10 Boyz - Nob, Trukk, Rokkit, RR 210
Bullyboyz Formation
3x 5 MANz - Trukk, Rokkit, RR 705
Bullyboyz Formation
3x 5 MANz - Trukk, Rokkit, RR 705
1850
8 trukks, 30 MANz, 2 Bosses. Who wants to pay for it?
That's a lot of MANz! Don't speak too loud, GW might come up with a 30-MANz formation in the next supplement...
Blackie wrote: In a list like that one why DFK instead of DLS? Because of points?
I'd love to play it by the way, meganobz are never enough
For infiltrate, stealth/MTC(ruins) and/or night vision, I'd say. Don't think DLS is really needed in such a list. But it's always welcome.
yeah, I think DFK benefits the whole army and there was only 10 points left. I'd have to dump most of the uprgrades, CB, BP, the Nobz, or maybe some RRs to grab DLS. The list has something like 100 pk attacks on the charge so rerolling 4 of them, meh. I had originally put it in, but I was literally just that 25 points over, oops.
What's the best way to use Flashgitz? I love me their models but I honestly have ZERO clue what their role is, how to use them, and why they have such "great" stats.
Any of you have any ways to use the Snazzy Snazz guns?
It was a back to basics style tournament which allowed no D, no LoW, no super heavy and only 1 of any type of unit outside of troops (CAD was mandatory). So i ran around 100 models, a mix of boyz, storm boyz, bikes and a squiggoth to meta game all the melta and grav.
I played genestealer cult game 1 and narrowly won, I also narrowly won game 3, but in game 2 I made it half way across the board and was almost tabled and lost terribly because of 2 thunderfire cannons that a librarian was giving ignores cover. This mixed with land speeder storms and their templates, and some grav centurions to take out the squiggoth made it a very painful game to play since I couldn't do anything about it.
HOWEVER, I am going to an ITC tournament GT late April and was wondering what you guys thought of this list:
Spoiler:
Formation:
Green Tide:
94 boyz
6 nobs with Power klaws
1 warboss with big boss pole (warlord)
CAD:
Painboy
Warboss, lucky stick, power klaw
10 gretchin
10 gretchin
1 Kustom mega kannon, ammo runt
1 Kustom mega kannon, ammo runt
Formation:
Skyhammer annihilation force:
Ultramarines chapter tactics (converted into robotic marines the Orks have made)
5 assault marines, 2 flamers, 1 eviscerator
5 assault marines, 1 eviscerator
5 devs, 4 with grav, drop pod
10 devs, 4 with melta, drop pod (to be split into 2 X 5 mixing melts if needed)
For those of you that dont know what the skyhammer is, its pretty much an ork players dream (if it were made for orks).
The whole formation comes in turn 1 or 2, your choice, and devs have relentless, and assault marines can charge after they deep strike like the old stormboy shenanigans.
So the idea here is that the fearless, FnP, +1WS green tide with a lucky stick warboss and 6 nob power klaws run turn 1 and 2 up the board as the main threat. Now this would normally be whittled down heavily by an opponent, even in a grav melta metta where killing a boy is a bit of a waste. the grots and kannons will sit at the back/ move forward with the tide to grab objectives.
Meanwhile... Turn 1 (or 2 if they null deploy) the skyhammer comes down, shooting wraithknights that could hold up the tide, killing knights or tanks and assaulting any high threat targets to the green tide.
The opponent will simply HAVE to deal with the marines unless they want another volley of death in their faces, and after a turn or two of mopping them up, the green tide will be good and ready to pounce and end the game.
Pros:
Green tide will survive longer
High threat targets can be easily removed
cons:
Green tide might spend a turn doing nothing if a 1 is rolled when within 6" of a drop pod or marine.
Depending on weather they use the recent faq or not, a biker boss might prevent the greentide from charging after a run move.
Also, i'm afraid it's going to fail due to 1 eye open special rule like you've noted.
In the FAQ it says that a bike can turbo boost if the unit t is in elects to run, so I'm guessing that means it's possible, but whether the tide can use waaagh after that is another question I guess?
I suppose that Robot marines would work. For me, the Devs must be modeled as Flash Gits... Assault Squads must be modeled as Stormboyz. Either case, I think that you must make Rokks for the drop pods.
Anpu-adom wrote: I suppose that Robot marines would work. For me, the Devs must be modeled as Flash Gits... Assault Squads must be modeled as Stormboyz. Either case, I think that you must make Rokks for the drop pods.
I would certainly agree, except that I also plan on keeping the opportunity to make a marine force open, so need to be careful of making the marines too Orks
EnsignTuna wrote: What's the best way to use Flashgitz? I love me their models but I honestly have ZERO clue what their role is, how to use them, and why they have such "great" stats.
Any of you have any ways to use the Snazzy Snazz guns?
I've used flash gitz a bunch since they were my favorite unit from DOW1 and they've always had a mixed performance. Back in early six was the golden age for gitz when their gitfindas ignored cover but now they're a close combat unit ,because nobz, that wants to sit still.
It's hard not to compare them to lootas since they're both heavy weapons infantry but unlike lootas they don't have the range to sit in the deployment zone in ruins and be great. You can put them in a trukk but that's likely to die turn 1-2 unless your doing a trukk rush with lots of boyz going 24" while they only go 6 and shoot. A battlewagon with a kill kannon pairs well but it's expensive for an expensive unit that will die because it needs to move up to midfield and expose it's side armor. A FW gunwagon is a good middle ground, AV 13/12/10 with a twinlinked big shoota for only 60 points is how I run them most of the time. The catch is it takes up a heavy support slot which only leaves you with one left after flash gitz. I've also had a little sucess running grots in front of them for a 5+ cover untill they can get into some midfield ruins but that really depends on your meta and how much ignores cover there is.
Flashgitz suffer from low durability. THey have Nob bodies, but only have 6+ saves.
If you have a MegaArmored Warboss looking for a home, give him the lucky stick and put him with the Flashgitz. Probably not the best use for him, but it helps them a lot.
Anpu-adom wrote: Flashgitz suffer from low durability. THey have Nob bodies, but only have 6+ saves.
If you have a MegaArmored Warboss looking for a home, give him the lucky stick and put him with the Flashgitz. Probably not the best use for him, but it helps them a lot.
The problem with this is that it adds an extra 125 points on to an already overly expensive unit and takes away their ability to Overwatch. Same problem with the AP3 bomb I want to try at some point with a big unit of Burna Boyz + MA Boss in a Wagon.
The real problem with flash gitz is that they have a S5 weapon like warbikes and lobbas. For the same amount of points these two units are way better than flash gitz which also need a transport and are very fragile.
Ok they can pierce marines armour but on average both lobbas and bikes cause more wounds than flash gitz.
Tiny, I thought CTA allies were not allowed in ITC. Did they just change those rules or did I misread them?
If you run the tide, I'm a proponent of a couple of the boyz units having armor. You may be able to place these in such a way as they get it first with non-ap weapons but not for the AP3+ ones. As far as I know there is no rule about 1 squad of boyz having armor and the other 9 not.
JimOnMars wrote: Tiny, I thought CTA allies were not allowed in ITC. Did they just change those rules or did I misread them?
If you run the tide, I'm a proponent of a couple of the boyz units having armor. You may be able to place these in such a way as they get it first with non-ap weapons but not for the AP3+ ones. As far as I know there is no rule about 1 squad of boyz having armor and the other 9 not.
So there's always some debate about ork ranged infantry. Bustas or Lootas? Flashgitz at all? I remain steadfast that there's a bigger picture, so here it is. It compares shoota boyz to big shoota boyz, bikers to lootas, flashgitz to bustas. WPT is the amount of wounds per turn you can expect the full amount of shots to get. PP is how many points those wounds cost you. Generally when people reccomend flashgitz, they totally forget PP (or Per Point). Paranthesis will refer to TL weapons, and greater/lesser than will represent tank hunter. The weapon that causes the most wounds per turn per point per enemy will be highlighted. GEQ is T3 5+, CEQ is T3 4+. (AM w/ Carapace, Some Eldar Aspect Warriors.)
Vs AV12 Deffgun - 0.22 [0.016] Rokkit - <0.25> [0.019]
Vs AV 13 Deffgun - 0.11 [0.008] Rokkit - <0.19> [0.015]
Vs AV 14 Rokkit - <0.10> [0.005]
You can see the issue with snazzgunz. May seem to be effective on the table but when you look at the bigger picture you handicap the rest of your force. It's never the worst option, unless you're targeting a vehicle, but they're solidly bottom tier. I could expand on this if there's interest, I thought about including Necrons and MEQ/GEC bikers. I could try an overall score too, but I'd have to weigh the categories, they aren't all as common as the other.
E: Discovered a small error w/r/t the rokkit MEQ values and it has now been fixed. It actually gives them the top spot there by a hair.
Rismonite wrote: Can you show the math on the Tankbusta/Lootas vs AV11 and up? It's been common knowledge to me that Lootas are better at everything except AV13 and up
The math above seems to favor the tankbustas, but it completely ignores range, which gives the lootas the edge against light vehicles. On the other hand, the TBs have tankhunter, which means most hits are pens against AV11.
Not sure how to mathhammer range and tankhunter, which would be needed for a true comparison.
Lots of great discussion here. Thanks for all the tips.
I am going to build a battlewagon and I am looking for suggestions on the loadout. I searched the forums, but only found threads from previous editions.
With the current rules and options, what's a good way to run a battlewagon against marines? With it not being a Fast vehicle, it seems that only having one gun is the way to go since everything else will be firing snap shots since I plan to move around with it.
I've spent a lot of posts trying to dispel that very myth so I'll gladly share.
I did the orginal calcs just in my head, this time I ran them through Wolfram Alpha but the original estimations are all relatively spot on. Basically the only error is from me rounding before multiplying in places. Makes it easier to do calculations in your head that are good enough for use during gametime when you need to figure some stuff out in the moment. It ties the result for AV11, but they're basically tied there before and after anyway.
You can see that for each point of AV, the deffgun's efficiency decreases significantly more than the tankhunting rokkits do.The busta has protection from this with it's tank hunter reroll. You can see the effect these rerolls can have when looking at the effectiveness of the TL dakkaguns. Lastly, the busta is cheaper so that helps out it's PP value.
This is not to say you can't use deffguns vs AV11-12. There's barely a difference at all vs AV11, and they're every bit as effective vs AV12 as the bustas are vs AV13, but ultimately yeah, the bustas are more effective. This hasn't even brought bomb squigs or Glory Hogs into consideration.
Rismonite wrote: Can you show the math on the Tankbusta/Lootas vs AV11 and up? It's been common knowledge to me that Lootas are better at everything except AV13 and up
The math above seems to favor the tankbustas, but it completely ignores range, which gives the lootas the edge against light vehicles. On the other hand, the TBs have tankhunter, which means most hits are pens against AV11.
Not sure how to mathhammer range and tankhunter, which would be needed for a true comparison.
I almost always take some of each.
The lootas have better range but inferior wargear options, transports, ability to take objectives, and special rules. They are effectively statues if you want to use them at all. The comparison is solely based on ranged infantry weapons as mentioned in the beginning of that post. I've included the math on how to calculate tankhunter, which seems to be were most of the confusion stems from. I did mention including it in my original post, represented by the greater/less than symbols, or <>.
Basically the misconception about ork shooting can be summed up thusly: People think more shots equals more effective firepower but the math shows rerolls are even more effective, and single points in S make a bigger difference than people imagine.
You definitely nailed the best answer, taking both. You would have great coverage just rolling warbikers/lootas/bustas.
e: ALSO almost forgot, the AV WPT equivalent is HPT (Hull points Per Turn) and does not factor in pen results, which would even more dramatically favour the bustas.
e2: Also worth consideration, The extra range the lootas have is usually used defensively no? I mean to say Lootas are usually deployed in the backfield instead of on the front line in a trukk, as tankbustas are. They end up with a more similar effective offensive range. I view range as much more of defensive perk, rather than an offensive one.
I am going to build a battlewagon and I am looking for suggestions on the loadout. I searched the forums, but only found threads from previous editions.
With the current rules and options, what's a good way to run a battlewagon against marines? With it not being a Fast vehicle, it seems that only having one gun is the way to go since everything else will be firing snap shots since I plan to move around with it.
Lend me your orky wisdom!
Depends what unit you are putting in it. Any thoughts on that? Definitely go with a reinforced ram so you can tuck it into cover for a save with a 1/36 chance of failing an immobilize test instead of a 1/6. If you're putting a melee unit in there, I like to roll with 4x rokkits so the wagon has something to do after it dumps their units. Once you've committed to taking a BW, the rokkit upgrade is the more points efficient way to add some dakka to your force. Never take 'Ard Case, never ever. If you want a killkannon, take a gun wagon instead.
Sikplex wrote: Hi guys, complete Ork beginner hopping onto the thread.
I originally planned my army to be around MANz but wanted to go a different direction.
Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?
Maybe giving the Boyz Trukks and 'Eavy armour?
And then maybe have some Lootas and some heavy weapons at the back with Stormboyz waiting to cut anyone who goes for them off?
How would this work?
Oh, easily. If anything, given the current meta in 7th ed, the old adage of "Boyz before toyz" doesn't seem to apply as much anymore since there's so many things boyz can't hurt nowadays like wraithknights and such.
A safe bet is taking either trukk boyz as you said, or if you want something more beefy, a 17 man boy squad with a Mega-Armoured Warboss with the Lucky Stikk and a Painboy in a battlewagon. This unit is very solid since it gives you the numbers you need without going overboard while also being something the opponent can't ignore due to their potential damage output. It's also fairly tanky thanks to the MAW with the Lucky Stikk taking the hits in the front (where he should be) and he can LoS any AP2 weaponry and the Painboy is there to make sure your meatshields don't die off too quickly.
Then you can supplement the force with Kustom Mega Kannonz and/or Lobbas in the back while you have Tankbustas roving around in trukks taking potshots at vehicles and armoured units. Also be sure to go for some deffkoptas so that you can contest objectives or get linebreaker later in the game. Outflanking them as single units is the best IMO since that way you avoid giving away easy first blood and that way they never suffer morale issues.
Sikplex wrote: Hi guys, complete Ork beginner hopping onto the thread.
I originally planned my army to be around MANz but wanted to go a different direction.
Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?
Maybe giving the Boyz Trukks and 'Eavy armour?
And then maybe have some Lootas and some heavy weapons at the back with Stormboyz waiting to cut anyone who goes for them off?
How would this work?
Hey! Sorry, was gonna get back to you in the army list thread but i got distracted by math lol.
I'm generally not a fan of 'Eavy Armour. Too expensive. (Min 40 points.) The most effective way to maximize your survivability is 6+ boyz and a MA character, with FNP and/or DLS. The idea is you keep your MAWB up front. If he takes a wound, it only has a 1/54 chance to get through the armour reroll and FNP. If he's hit by AP2 and/or S10, you can look out sir that wound on to a boy. 'Eavy Armour wouldn't help there and just makes each loss more expensive.
If you aren't rolling a MAWB they're slightly more effective, especially at surviving explosions. Not really enough to make it worthwhile imho.
If you want to run 4+ Orks, warbikers may be for you. Taking the character Zhadsnark Da Rippa from the IA8 dread mob update allows you to take warbikers as troops. T5 instead of 4, 4+ armour, 3/4+ jink save, turboboost. You can see the effectiveness of their dakkagunz in my earlier post math ham'ing ranged infantry weapons.
When it comes to elite cc tho, you can't really beat the MANz. You had a 750 point list right? You could do bullyboyz, 3x5 MANz, 3x trukk w/ ram, 3x killsaws, and 3x kombi-skorchas for a legal list lol.
Wow... That list looks incredibly strong and brutal...
It also looks like it's going to brutal to my wallet as well...
I really didn't think it was going to cost me that much $$$ wise!
Just for the Bullyboyz formation I'd need 5 of the MANz boxes along with all the transport... Ouch!
Sikplex wrote: Wow... That list looks incredibly strong and brutal...
It also looks like it's going to brutal to my wallet as well...
I really didn't think it was going to cost me that much $$$ wise! Just for the Bullyboyz formation I'd need 5 of the MANz boxes along with all the transport... Ouch!
Maybe i should rethink about it haha
Unfortunately, orks are p expensive, with a capital P. You can do MANz on the cheap a couple ways. Ebay is great, they're usually metal models so it's less risky to strip a bad paint job, which is the cheapest way to get a model lol. If you feel like sculpting you can make some good conversion with plasticard, green stuff, and however you make fake rivets. It's easier to buy at least one pack of MANz so you have a good idea of the dimensions. If you're not so much into sculpting but can do some light conversion work, you can kitbash crises suits into MANz.
Orks are one of the best kitbashing armies. Even if you just had some metal plates or just random races armour bitz you can ramshackle something together that looks orky.
If you just want straight cheapest, it's prob a trukk rush of some variety. $65 canadian dollars gets me a trukk +10 boyz. kitbash the boyz into 5 bustas and/or 5 lootas. Comes out to about 205 points for that $65, which ain't bad. A trukk+boyz box and an empty trukk pack can give ya 2x 5 tankbustas w/ trukk +RR/Rokkit for 200.
Trukks can be converted to looted/battlewagons with some plasticard, greenstuff, or kitbashing.
If you really want to save $$$, find some bitz collections online. They're usually underpriced. I got a sizable one for $50, you can use it to turn 3 $50 trukks into 3 $90 wagons.
I don't recommend this avenue, but I know some gambler types who have played for pinks essentially. (For keeps.). They had pretty sizable collections anyway and we usually have a buy back option, but we tend to let each other borrow models, units, or even armies anyway since we've known eachother since highschool. So maybe don't gamble, unless you pack DLS, but a gaming group can be helpful too.
E: You could pick up a Stompa, kustom stompa, or some knights if you want to make it that that 1850 point mark the fastest. They have a great $:pts ratio. You'll spend a bit more at first but can get started playing faster, then you can pick up more models at your leisure to fill it in how you like. You'll also have a better idea of what you want. It would suck to drop a couple g's on a ork biker army and then find out you hate it. At the very least, start in increments. 200 point kill team ---> 500 points ---> 1000 --->1500 ---1850 it's a good ladder and covers the more common game types.
Also, read up on general strategies like MSU and min/max. Also take a peek at the ITC rules, they have a lot of great ones and some good guidelines for avoiding being TFG in geneneral, such as max 3 detachments/formations, max 1 duplicate detachment.formation, and max 1 LoW for example.
E2: There's also a metric boatload of 3rd party orks worth checking out. The german orks are p cool, cheaper, and do thematically line up with say, a stormboyz heavy list. (Fluffwise and aesthically.)
Fake edit: Also, don't paint your nobz purple, red, or pink. You'll never survive the embarrassment of a successful exploding penetration.
Thank you very much for the detailed replies and help slip, greatly appreciated.
I have never converted anything before and didn't really plan on doing a lot as i'm not on the creative side so ATM I'm quite lost.
Maybe Orks isn't really my type(I'm getting this feeling the more indepth I dig into them)...
I probably should do some more research as you said earlier, it'd suck if i just spend money and then find out later that i don't like them.
I was really excited to get started on Orks but looks like I might need to look into other stuff before really deciding.
Back to the drawing board for me I guess.
No prob, you can message me too if you have any questions.
I know a lot of this can be overwhelming. Orks have a really strange and special place in 40k. Don't be daunted by the creative side of it, embrace it! I played WHFB Skaven and 40k Eldar first. I never could get the Orks outta my head, maybe they just bring out the green in people. Playing Orks means people are always happy to see ya, and your army can be more individually meaningful to you than any other army, thanks to that customization. Don't start out looking to make a perfect model. Just do what you can at first and start small. Putting the right weapon on your vehicles, figuring how to fit a model on foot on to a bike, maybe get a little weathered look going, some dirt and mud and such. These are little things you gotta do in every army, and they'll build your confidence for the other stuff. The hobby is one of the best parts of the hobby, no one to argue over rules or whine about losing, just you and your style.
Who knows, maybe after a time you'll get bored and drop out. I did. I held on to my Orks though, it felt like I had really put myself into them and couldn't bear to give them away. I was glad to have them when i came back. Don't miss my other ones.
You did say you wanted more of an elite army. That's fair. But I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Why do you want to play that style? Do you view it as more competitive? I can assure you that's definitely not the case. It's just sort of where the game is at right now rules wise. Things like terminators aren't the champs they used to be. Last ork codex, Nob Bikerz and deffrollas were the gak, and now they're just gak. MANz were garbage, and now they're one of the best units. You can't really get ahead of the curve, it'll always change. Orks at least don't have to update their army as much as say Eldar or SM, so over the long run it might not be more expensive after all. If GW does away with the gladius formation for example, how much do you think those players would have spent on stuff they can't even use now? That's the risk of trying to stay top of the line.
Try proxying some lists. (When we were kids we used to play warhammer with army men from the dollar store haha) It will give you a chance to see what you like, and more importantly, how you like playing the game. For you, I'd suggest Space Wolves, Necrons, or Chaos. They fall more into that elite individuals-style category. Chaos is notable for being able to make lists with a really low model count. You can also try allies. Gives you a wider understanding of the factions and would allow you to compare them in real time on the board, which is helpful. Also, you just gotta get out there. Go to the next FLGS40k day and just spectate. Make some friends. The shop will probably have a loaner army or someone will and would let you borrow just to get a casual fun game in.
If you ever get bored, come on back here and we'll show you how to slap the paint right off those factions in style, and to have fun doing it.
Well I have two main reasons for wanting a elite-type army.
1. I'm a Uni student and also work part-time which limits the time I can put into the hobby- so I was thinking if I had a horde army the modeling and painting time would obviously be extended.
2. The thought of having to move 100s and 100s of models each turn seems like a huge task when playing (also in the transport aspect as well)
I know the reasons I've stated might not seem legit to some but they have an impact in my hobby style.
At this moment I'm looking at Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Militarum Tempestus and Skitarii but can't get Orks off the back of my head haha.
But it is really good to know I have a place to come back to if I change/make up my mind!
I've played against this list with my orks. Its really easy to beat. It looks strong on paper, but your opponent can simply out shoot you and out maneuver you, you'll lose.
Sikplex wrote: Is it possible to have an Ork army without like a hundred Boyz? Something more on the medium-model count (but not talking all the Stompas etc.)?
I know Reece has tried running trucks filled with tankbusta spam, specifically as a counter to Glaudius. Don't have his exact list, though.
slip wrote: Anyone tried running warkoptas? I was thinking them+busta spam would be pretty alright, giving them a jink and all.
They are a lot of $$$ (and points) for a 2HP model, jink or no, so I've never considered it. I would put them fourth (behind trukks, looted wagons and bws.)
If I was going for FW stuff I think I'd go the big squiggoth route. Last i checked ITC still allowed them.
slip wrote: Anyone tried running warkoptas? I was thinking them+busta spam would be pretty alright, giving them a jink and all.
They are a lot of $$$ (and points) for a 2HP model, jink or no, so I've never considered it. I would put them fourth (behind trukks, looted wagons and bws.)
If I was going for FW stuff I think I'd go the big squiggoth route. Last i checked ITC still allowed them.
Personally, if I have the points, I'm taking a warkopta with burnas inside. firing flamers from an open top flyer is pretty awesome.
slip wrote: Anyone tried running warkoptas? I was thinking them+busta spam would be pretty alright, giving them a jink and all.
They are a lot of $$$ (and points) for a 2HP model, jink or no, so I've never considered it. I would put them fourth (behind trukks, looted wagons and bws.)
If I was going for FW stuff I think I'd go the big squiggoth route. Last i checked ITC still allowed them.
Personally, if I have the points, I'm taking a warkopta with burnas inside. firing flamers from an open top flyer is pretty awesome.
Oh yeah Warkoptas are now flyers with hover mode.
Except not, as far as I can tell. Yes, FW did release a thing for the DFTS flyers rules changes where they gave the warkopta a flyer profile. But the actual warkopta is not a flyer. At least, not usually. You see, in the back of the IA8 book is a warkopta formation where they can temporarily become flyers for a turn, and as far as I see the profile is just for when they become flyers in that formation in that mode. Pretty sure the formation sucks too.
I am going to build a battlewagon and I am looking for suggestions on the loadout. I searched the forums, but only found threads from previous editions.
With the current rules and options, what's a good way to run a battlewagon against marines? With it not being a Fast vehicle, it seems that only having one gun is the way to go since everything else will be firing snap shots since I plan to move around with it.
Lend me your orky wisdom!
Depends what unit you are putting in it. Any thoughts on that? Definitely go with a reinforced ram so you can tuck it into cover for a save with a 1/36 chance of failing an immobilize test instead of a 1/6. If you're putting a melee unit in there, I like to roll with 4x rokkits so the wagon has something to do after it dumps their units. Once you've committed to taking a BW, the rokkit upgrade is the more points efficient way to add some dakka to your force. Never take 'Ard Case, never ever. If you want a killkannon, take a gun wagon instead.
Thanks, Slip. I also read your great Ork tactics article and really enjoyed it. I hope you can find the time to finish it up.
I really like the look of the Supa Kannon battlewagon from Forge World so I think I will make one just for fun even though I cannot find the rules anywhere. It sounds like there are lots of cool things in IA:8, but I have not seen that for sale in the 2 - 3 years since I last got back into the hobby. You would think they would update the book and put it back in stock. I am sure it is a high-margin item and it would help sell lots of expensive resin kits!
But I think I will also eventually make a battlewagon to use as a transport. But if that is its role, then I think the best thing is to go with only one gun since it will always be moving and everything besides one gun will be making snap shots so what is the point of loading up a bunch of extra rokkits. A Zzap Gun seems interesting because AP2 gives the +1 on the damage table, but it seems like a plain old rokkit is better overall for the points even before you factor in that it Gets Hot 20% of the time! It just seems boring to have a big old battlewagon with a single rokkit, but it seems the only efficient armament for the transport version of the wagon.
Thanks! Just for that, I added another update. I kinda slack on finishing the tactica but I make up for it by being pretty active in reviewing army lists.
Could run the supa kannon battlewagon as a supa kannon gun wagon. AV isn;t as good but that is a killer weapon.
I feel like max rokkits is the way to go on the transport wagon. They're as cheap as upgrading a boy with the weapon but boyz want to be in combat, which is a real waste of the weapon. The Wagon may move flat out turn 1 but after it's unit disembarks it will have plenty of shooting to do.Taking the extra rokkits also forces your opponent to deal with it, wasting offensive output vs its AV14.
Consider this, if you get a blitz brigade, you've already invested 550 points. For your next 100 points you could get 3 tl rokkit koptas, 5 tankbustas and a rokkit trukk, or 20 rokkits. That's better than a punisher gatling cannon.On top of that, your opponent can no longer afford to ignore your wagons when they're empty. They remain a potent firebase thus making the most of their exceptional armour beyond turn one protection.
Tankbustas are another good combo. 5 bustas and a wagon is 9 rokkits, capable of destroying a 3 HP vehicle in one round by itself.
But you are right. There's nothing really worth taking besides the rokkits, A ram I guess.
The IA8 Dread Mob Army Update is a freely available pdf on the forgeworld site. Go ahead and download it to a tablet or print it off. Good enough for ITC.
I run an elite ork list but it definitely isn't cheap. It has its counters but its straightforward and relies on being immune to most damage. It has some trouble with crons and can have issues with space Marines if they are grav heavy. Most of you have seen it before but its the gorkanaut krushin krew and a cad with a big mek, 2 units of gretchin, 2 morkanauts with kff, and buzzgobs stompa. 30 models total and it plays fairly quickly.
How do you warbosses deal with a Land Raider Crusader?
Regular Land Raiders are easy enough for orks to ignore since their lascannons can't do much damage to our sprawling forces, but the Crusader is pretty brutal with the two Hurrican Bolters (12 twin-linked bolt gun shots per turn within 12"), the twin-linked assault cannon and the multi-melta. Plus, it can fire at two different targets are fire an extra weapon normally rather than snap shots at each movement speed. So it can wreck vehicles with the multi-melta while simultaneously taking out our trukks, bikes, and boys with 16 TL shots per turn (inflicting 8 wounds per turn on T4 on average).
My regular opponent fields one and so far I have only destroyed it in one game out of four (our games are only 1000 - 1400 points because that is all we have painted so far making it a beast for our smallish armies), and that was in melee with tankbustas, but now I am reading in this thread that they can only use one tankbusta bomb per turn? Where did this rule come from?
I think MANZ with killsaws are the only realistic option. A single nob with PK can't typically get more than about two hull points in one round of combat in my experience and then he gets blown away on the next turn, if he even makes it into melee. My problem is, with only one unit of MANZ, it is too easy for my opponent to focus everything on them whenever they get within 12 - 18". Tankbustas shooting rokkits have 1/3 chance to hit and 11/36 chance to glance with the re-roll so to take out 4 HP, it will take 39 shots to bring it down. So unless you are running a ton of these guys, that is going to be pretty impractical considering their relatively short range and fragility. Options with TL rokkits are about the same odds, requiring about 40 shots.
In my last game, I deployed first and he deployed the LRC on the opposite side of the table from my MANZ missile. My only option was to throw sacrificial trukks and light vehicles in its path to keep it from reaching the single major objective marker in the game. It actually worked pretty well as it forced him to either sit still and shoot the vehicle in his path (easily destroyed but costs him a turn of movement) or try to Ram through, but it is unlikely to Explode and anything besides Explode and his vehicle gets stopped where they contact. And either way, if he Rams, he can only make Snap Shots. I throw grots in the way, too. Tank Shocking doesn't limit him to Snap Shots like Ramming does, but it disallows him from embarking or disembarking anyone in that turn (I think) so again, my sacrificial speed bumps can really limit what the tank can do. You can check out my latest battle report against him in the link here:
Please take a look because I would appreciate any advice you could offer on the LRC or anything else you see in my tactics in the battle.
Most of these tactics posts focus on which units to include in an army, but for a slow painter like me with kids and a job, I can only add units slowly so I need to make the most of the units I have for a fairly long time! So I would like to hear your cunning strategies of how to get the most out of your units. From reading Slip's great ork tactics article, I already know that next time I need to put my tankbustas in my second trukk instead of my 'ard boyz (I have just had very bad experiences with 6+ save boyz in trukks when they inevitably Explode!)
In summary, to beat a LRC, I see two options: MANZ missiles (you will need more than one to get through and wreck that thing) or use sacrificial light vehicles to block it and keep it away from the main action or the objectives. Any other ideas?
Regular Land Raiders are easy enough for orks to ignore since their lascannons can't do much damage to our sprawling forces, but the Crusader is pretty brutal with the two Hurrican Bolters (12 twin-linked bolt gun shots per turn within 12"), the twin-linked assault cannon and the multi-melta. Plus, it can fire at two different targets are fire an extra weapon normally rather than snap shots at each movement speed. So it can wreck vehicles with the multi-melta while simultaneously taking out our trukks, bikes, and boys with 16 TL shots per turn (inflicting 8 wounds per turn on T4 on average).
My regular opponent fields one and so far I have only destroyed it in one game out of four (our games are only 1000 - 1400 points because that is all we have painted so far making it a beast for our smallish armies), and that was in melee with tankbustas, but now I am reading in this thread that they can only use one tankbusta bomb per turn? Where did this rule come from?
I think MANZ with killsaws are the only realistic option. A single nob with PK can't typically get more than about two hull points in one round of combat in my experience and then he gets blown away on the next turn, if he even makes it into melee. My problem is, with only one unit of MANZ, it is too easy for my opponent to focus everything on them whenever they get within 12 - 18". Tankbustas shooting rokkits have 1/3 chance to hit and 11/36 chance to glance with the re-roll so to take out 4 HP, it will take 39 shots to bring it down. So unless you are running a ton of these guys, that is going to be pretty impractical considering their relatively short range and fragility. Options with TL rokkits are about the same odds, requiring about 40 shots.
In my last game, I deployed first and he deployed the LRC on the opposite side of the table from my MANZ missile. My only option was to throw sacrificial trukks and light vehicles in its path to keep it from reaching the single major objective marker in the game. It actually worked pretty well as it forced him to either sit still and shoot the vehicle in his path (easily destroyed but costs him a turn of movement) or try to Ram through, but it is unlikely to Explode and anything besides Explode and his vehicle gets stopped where they contact. And either way, if he Rams, he can only make Snap Shots. I throw grots in the way, too. Tank Shocking doesn't limit him to Snap Shots like Ramming does, but it disallows him from embarking or disembarking anyone in that turn (I think) so again, my sacrificial speed bumps can really limit what the tank can do. You can check out my latest battle report against him in the link here:
Please take a look because I would appreciate any advice you could offer on the LRC or anything else you see in my tactics in the battle.
Most of these tactics posts focus on which units to include in an army, but for a slow painter like me with kids and a job, I can only add units slowly so I need to make the most of the units I have for a fairly long time! So I would like to hear your cunning strategies of how to get the most out of your units. From reading Slip's great ork tactics article, I already know that next time I need to put my tankbustas in my second trukk instead of my 'ard boyz (I have just had very bad experiences with 6+ save boyz in trukks when they inevitably Explode!)
In summary, to beat a LRC, I see two options: MANZ missiles (you will need more than one to get through and wreck that thing) or use sacrificial light vehicles to block it and keep it away from the main action or the objectives. Any other ideas?
Thanks!
LRC are definitely not competitive choices, unless the mission is KP you need to score points, not to table the opponent. A LRC and its cargo are a lot of points in smaller games so you should easily outnumber your opponent.
Don't try to destroy it in the shooting phase, orks can't really deal with AV14 by shooting. One manz missile and the unit joined by the warboss should wreck it quite easily, or just the warboss and 3-4 units of boyz with pks nobz.
What list do you use? Avoid eavy armors, in lower games you need more bodies.
If you play with something like this a land raider shouldn't be a problem:
Warboss, EA, pk, dls
4 units of 10 boyz, trukk + ram, nob, bp, pk (the unit joined by the warboss a big choppa on the nobz is enough)
2 units of 5 tankbustas, trukk+ram
1 deffkopta
2 lootas wagons with killkannons
You get 8 vehicles on the board. Alternatively you can take single deffkoptas, lobbas or bikes, maybe ditch DLS in order to give the pk to the fourth nob and a ram to one of the wagons. Always include 6+ vehicles in a 1000 points list or 3 units of bikes. Spread the pks in at least 4 different units. A warboss in EA is cheaper but capable of doing the same damage than the Megarmored one.
Bikerstar would be the most efficient way if you have to destroy it. Zhadsnark+DLS Boss w/ PK should wreck it in one round of combat. T5/6+Jink will let them tank those hurricane bolter shots with ease.
Like I said, it is not an ideal or tourney-style because it just what I have painted over the years, half of it because it looks cool and half because I think it is effective.These are just fun games so neither of us are running overpowered spam lists (my opponent uses terminators for Gork's sake!).
I agree with guys that in Maelstrom game, I can ignore the tank and win by scoring objectives all over the board even if he whittles my army down to a handful of models, which happened here. http://xhorikwar.blogspot.com/2014/12/blog-post.html
But the real challenge comes in Eternal War style games where there may be only 1 - 2 objectives, like my latest battle, where there was one primary objective to hold. Like I said, all I could really do was throw speed bumps in his path to slow him down and keep him from reaching the objective.
Without totally tuning my list to fight this thing, it sounds like the best bet is to add a warboss on bike because I will want that against other armies, too.Maybe another small unit of bustas. In terms of tactics, it sounds like the best bet is to ignore it when I can or, if I have to wreck it, throw 2 - 3 threats at it at once so it can only stop one and at least one gets through. Thanks.
Also, can someone point me to where the tankbusta bombs rules got changed?
Also, can someone point me to where the tankbusta bombs rules got changed?
You mean the general melta bombs nerf? There's a FAQ that declares that one unit can throw a single melta bomb. I don't know where to search it but it's not written in a rulebook/codex, it's an official GWFAQ.
Also, can someone point me to where the tankbusta bombs rules got changed?
You mean the general melta bombs nerf? There's a FAQ that declares that one unit can throw a single melta bomb. I don't know where to search it but it's not written in a rulebook/codex, it's an official GWFAQ.
Thanks. I googled it. I was out of the hobby for most of last year while I moved my family from Pennsylvania to Texas so I missed that. I wonder why they changed it. It seems like the points values to give a unit krak grenades or melta bombs is more fair if the whole unit can use them at one attack apiece. It seemed pretty fair before. Now you may as well just give them to only the sergeant, on squads where that's allowed.
It definitely doesn't seem like suicidally charging a Land Raider with a unit of Tankbustas would be worth it just to make that one tankbusta bomb attack because there is a good chance that you will either miss or just ping it for a single HP, leaving you in perfect condition to get wiped out by point blank shooting in the next turn (the hurricane bolters and TL assault cannon will take out a full unit of 8 with average rolling).
That's why you have 2 Tankhammers (which each do, what, 3 or 4 Strength 10 hits apiece? That'll average about 4 hull points on AV 14, won't it?) and a Nob with a Powerklaw as well.
Anvildude wrote: That's why you have 2 Tankhammers (which each do, what, 3 or 4 Strength 10 hits apiece? That'll average about 4 hull points on AV 14, won't it?) and a Nob with a Powerklaw as well.
Tankhammers hit at S8 AP3. They're actually not that great against land raiders. Our best bet in melee against a LR is normally a Warboss with a power klaw since he has enough weight of attacks and the magic number of S10. That or you can just ignore it.
S8. A tankbusta with tank hammer is a 28 point model. The two of them are almost as much as another squad of tankbustas while subtracting two rokkits from the unit you did take.
tankbustas- 2x tankhammer + nob + pk 130
2x5 tankbustas 130
generally the increased range, target saturation, and volume of shots is much more valuable.
if yo want anti-armour cc then try
3 MANz- Killsaws 130
Which would be much more effective then the tankhammer/pk setup
Oh yeah... new edition. Used to be just, what, 10 extra points for the hammer, and it was a Str10 AP- weapon. Which was honestly nicer against tanks than the rokket profile.
Tankhammers? Please no! Just keep the tankbustas a shooty unit that can charge if a vehicle needs to be stripped by a single HP. Maybe if you assault a vehicle with 2 units of boyz it's ok to let the tankbustas join the party too but not if they are alone in trying to wreck a vehicle in close combat.
You have tons of pks to assault vehicles, that's why I'd also avoid any nob+pk options on the tankbustas.
ministar set up. majority t6, rerollable jink, los rolls.
If you take two cc busta units, you would be looking at this:
-3x5 tankbustas,bomb squig, trukk, ram, rokkit
This is all mostly regarding MSU min/max range spam which is en vogue. Casual gaming you might not notice a difference.
If I were to run CC bustas, I'd just go 2x hammers, 3x squigs. That way every rokkit gets a reroll, and you can cc if you want. Idk if the nob is really worth it in this case, they add survivability and staying power but the bustas are a glass cannon that you should write off if somebody even looks at them funny, according to MSU philosophy.
160 points is exactly a unit of meganobz in a trukk without killsaws, and they're both a single elite choice with the same dedicated transport, so if you can fit the tankbustas you certainly can fit the MANZ in your list
They surely wreck a vehicle better than 5 tankbustas with 2 hammers, especially if you invest 10 more points for a pair of killsaws, and they're also way more resilient. Not to mention that they can kill many other things rather than vehicles.
I'd completely avoid that CC loadout for tankbustas, they should fire from their vehicle. Occasionally they can join an assault if other units have successfully charged a vehicle and a single melta bomb can make the difference.
But for that amount of points there are several units and combinations of them that are certainly more efficient against vehicles in the shooting phase and/or in close combat.
To me, it starts to look like Tankbustas have 0 place in our lists right now. They lack the versatility of Koptas, the durability/range/multiple weapon profiles of Kannon, the range and turn one capabilities of Lootas, and couldn't scratch the work Meganobz can do in CC with one Melta Bomb. Tankbusta's have short range, a reliance on an exploding trukkbomb for anything resembling mobility, and no durability whatsoever. They are just cheap enough to flood the bored with and hope nobody shoots them before they get a shot first, in anything but a Blitz Brigade. The only role they had as a suicide 5 melta delivery squad has been FAQ'd into uselessness that is outdone by obviously superior meganobz.
Hold my beer while I break the rokkit launchas off my tankbustas in hopes that I can still make anything more useful --> like a slugga choppa boy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Since MSU is in Vogue, let me bring up another thought I had the other day. I was looking over how to actually make the 'Meh-Waaagh Band' formation's 6 Ork Boy squads more useful and it hit me that an Ork with the gubbinz could take a seemingly limitless amount of Mek Gunz and then Warbuggies and flood the bored with enough gak that nobody can hope to shoot it all.
Yes Warbuggies, cheapcheapcheap and fast overlooked unit with a big footprint to throw on forward objectives.
And you know what else is crazy here? Those warbuggies don't require much time to move, and the mek gunz are just going to skip straight to firing, yeah you'll still have to move 60 Ork Boyz but that doensn't take to long when you are just trying to put them between anything that might threaten your mek gun army of defensive objective keepers.
Rismonite wrote: To me, it starts to look like Tankbustas have 0 place in our lists right now. They lack the versatility of Koptas, the durability/range/multiple weapon profiles of Kannon, the range and turn one capabilities of Lootas, and couldn't scratch the work Meganobz can do in CC with one Melta Bomb. Tankbusta's have short range, a reliance on an exploding trukkbomb for anything resembling mobility, and no durability whatsoever. They are just cheap enough to flood the bored with and hope nobody shoots them before they get a shot first, in anything but a Blitz Brigade. The only role they had as a suicide 5 melta delivery squad has been FAQ'd into uselessness that is outdone by obviously superior meganobz.
Hold my beer while I break the rokkit launchas off my tankbustas in hopes that I can still make anything more useful --> like a slugga choppa boy.
I disagree, I consider tankbustas more useful than lootas, deffkoptas and kannons.
Deffkoptas are good but only in solo units, the Ld7 can make a 150 points unit useless with a couple of casualities or a 120 one with a single kopta down. That's why you won't have a ton of shooting with them, as typically use just a few koptas. Their TL rokkit is a nice add, but not the main reason you may want deffkoptas in the game.
Kannons are nice but other mek gunz are way more useful, a battery of them is only 5 shots and with the same amount of points you can get many more wounds using KMKs or lobbas against infantries. Against vehicles they have the same potential than tankbustas (they're BS3 and got ammo runts, tankbustas have bomb squigs though), but no tankhunter and melta bomb. Kannons also struggle to get a room in any list as they're an heavy support choice, while tankbustas only have meganobz that compete with them and typically you just take a single unit of manz or their formation.
Lootas are nice too but still boyz with t-shirt saves and ld7 so they work only in min units. Which means that your're forced to go double cad or to take only lootas as heavy support choices or just a little number of shots if you need other heavy support choices. Which are also s7 with no tankhunter.
Tankbustas also have another purpose, they add trukks to your trukk spam list. For just 15 points they can get 3 one use shots that hit on 2s and get 2 points if they achieve first blood. With 2-3 min units (230 or 345 points) with bomb squigs it's not impossible to get it. They also have a good synergy with the blitz brigade formation, while lootas carrying a heavy weapon need to stay where they are the entire game and they're wasted in a vehicle. I like them and sometimes I bring lootas in my lists but I think tankbustas are better. IMHO they're among best orks units.
Warbuggies are underrated though, an outflanking unit of 5 is a nice add for 125 points and has good synergy with a trukks spam list as it adds 10 more AV10 HP.
Rismonite wrote: To me, it starts to look like Tankbustas have 0 place in our lists right now. They lack the versatility of Koptas, the durability/range/multiple weapon profiles of Kannon, the range and turn one capabilities of Lootas, and couldn't scratch the work Meganobz can do in CC with one Melta Bomb. Tankbusta's have short range, a reliance on an exploding trukkbomb for anything resembling mobility, and no durability whatsoever. They are just cheap enough to flood the bored with and hope nobody shoots them before they get a shot first, in anything but a Blitz Brigade. The only role they had as a suicide 5 melta delivery squad has been FAQ'd into uselessness that is outdone by obviously superior meganobz.
Hold my beer while I break the rokkit launchas off my tankbustas in hopes that I can still make anything more useful --> like a slugga choppa boy.
Not true! They are very valuable vs MEQs, any type of av, and wraithknights. Tankhunter, ap3, s8, bomb squigs, transport options, and cheap point cost make them easy to spam.
Here are my numbers, reposted from a few pages ago, but updated to include kannons and tl kopta rokkits.
Ork Dakka Offensive Output and Composition Efficiency
Spoiler:
How to use the list -
The first number indicates how many wounds will be inflicted per round of shots after saves for a given target. It's kinda a mouthful, but if you play FPS games, it's kinda analogous to kill:death ratio. Use this to determine target priority. The actual number isn't as important as remembering the general order and any huge drop offs between weapons. For example, vs AV11,the deff kopta tl rokkit launcha will on average cause more damage than anything else. If your kopta has a choice, it should take the shot at the AV11 over a few other choices. So you might think, hey those are gonna be my light vehicle counter and start loading up on koptas over say tankbustas or lootas. But wait! The second number is wounds per turn per point. Now you'll notice the kopta's value is half that of the top two choices. This means you would be spending twice the points to accomplish the same task. You could be accomplishing two tasks instead, ya dig?
WPT- Wounds Per Turn, PP- Per Point, <tank hunter>, (twin linked), HPT-Hullpoints per turn (glance/pen equality.)
I need to develop a third stat to calculate overkill wastage essentially. You see how the anti-armour weaponry has static values across most of the infantry? Some would be a bigger waste of points than others. Basically the inverse of the WPT stat, like Overkill Per Turn.
Myself, I like the buggies. Unlike Koptas I can bring a squad of buggies loaded with tl rokkits. Heavy flamers are nice too after your trukks tank shokk infantry into a nice tight cluster. If you want a Mad Max Army the buggies need to be in there. Final note: give at least one of them wartrakks to reroll dangerous terrain tests as you capture an objective.
ProwlerPC wrote: Myself, I like the buggies. Unlike Koptas I can bring a squad of buggies loaded with tl rokkits. Heavy flamers are nice too after your trukks tank shokk infantry into a nice tight cluster. If you want a Mad Max Army the buggies need to be in there. Final note: give at least one of them wartrakks to reroll dangerous terrain tests as you capture an objective.
What? Defkoptas have twin-linked rokkits. Even modeled on the AoBR deffkoptas.
Not arguing with the utility of tankshocking into burna range... I'll have to remember that with my burna-wagon.
What? Defkoptas have twin-linked rokkits. Even modeled on the AoBR deffkoptas.
You're right but larger units of koptas are not gonna work, they usually run solo. 5 buggies with rokkits are 25 points cheaper than 5 koptas with rokkits and way more effective. If you want a fast unit with 5 TL rokkits buggies are a nice option.
Correct. Due to leadership issues Deffkopta skwads are highly inadvisable and are best run solo. If you need to bring more rokkits that are twin linked then buggies are the way to go as they don't suffer leadership issues and their fast profile ensures they aren't snap shooting their rokkits. This same fast profile allows skorchas to not be forced to snap shoot and thus not shoot making them more reliable then burnas in a trukk...not to mention they are heavy flamers.
Ork Dakka Offensive Output and Composition Efficiency
Spoiler:
How to use the list -
The first number indicates how many wounds will be inflicted per round of shots after saves for a given target. It's kinda a mouthful, but if you play FPS games, it's kinda analogous to kill:death ratio. Use this to determine target priority. The actual number isn't as important as remembering the general order and any huge drop offs between weapons. For example, vs AV11,the deff kopta tl rokkit launcha will on average cause more damage than anything else. If your kopta has a choice, it should take the shot at the AV11 over a few other choices. So you might think, hey those are gonna be my light vehicle counter and start loading up on koptas over say tankbustas or lootas. But wait! The second number is wounds per turn per point. Now you'll notice the kopta's value is half that of the top two choices. This means you would be spending twice the points to accomplish the same task. You could be accomplishing two tasks instead, ya dig?
WPT- Wounds Per Turn, PP- Per Point, <tank hunter>, (twin linked), HPT-Hullpoints per turn (glance/pen equality.)
I need to develop a third stat to calculate overkill wastage essentially. You see how the anti-armour weaponry has static values across most of the infantry? Some would be a bigger waste of points than others. Basically the inverse of the WPT stat, like Overkill Per Turn.
This is absolutely fantastic! You're a saint. I've got it saved for future reference, this will be a useful tool for us all!
My vote is either max 5 Ork naked mobs of TankBustas possibly multiple CAD OR 2 X 15 with PK Nob (still gets Tank Hunter on PK attacks), no Tank Hammers ever, with PainBoy in the two Blitz Brigade four Rokkit Plus Kannon Battlewagons that are NOT occupied by the BullyBoyz each of which 2 out of 5 have Killsaws.
Now that's a run on sentence! The second option gets you 55 Rokkits first turn, 30 of which have Tank Hunter. Other five naked TankBustas on foot can hide all sorts of places. Go to ground for a Turn and soak up a few shots. 3-6 mobs of those can annoy and frustrate an opponent who is hopefully distracted by bigger threats.
Tankbustas is the one unit that I advocate not buying the expensive pk for the nob upgrade. A tankhammer costs 15 pts to give one of the Boyz S8 attacks at WS4. Upgrading a Boy to a nob is 10 pts and an additional 25 pts for the pk who is a character that can be challenged. I'd rather give the nob the 5 pt big choppa and toss a tankhammer on a boy.
Min squad of Tankbustas with a nob and pk is 100 pts. Min squad of Tankbustas with one tankhammer and a nob with big choppy is 90 pts. 5 pts each for boss pole and squig bombs are auto take. Let the tankhammer boy use squigs as shooting attack and now on the charge you have 1 nob doing 4 S7 attacks, a boy doing 3 S8 attacks and one boy using a melta bomb all with Tank Hunter rule. That's more killy power for 10 pts less.
I'd rather give them a trukk than upgrading one of a min squad as a nob with pk. 5 tankbustas with trukk + ram is 100 points too. I always include 3 bomb squigs each unless I struggle with points.
Min squad of Tankbustas with one tankhammer and a nob with big choppy is 90 pts. 5 pts each for boss pole and squig bombs are auto take. Let the tankhammer boy use squigs as shooting attack and now on the charge you have 1 nob doing 4 S7 attacks, a boy doing 3 S8 attacks and one boy using a melta bomb all with Tank Hunter rule. That's more killy power for 10 pts less.
This is how I run my tankbustas when they aren't riding around in a battlewagon from the Blitzwagon detachment. That battlewagon also gets boarding planks.
Not saying it's the best... just saying that's how I roll.
ProwlerPC wrote: Min squad of Tankbustas with one tankhammer and a nob with big choppy is 90 pts. 5 pts each for boss pole and squig bombs are auto take. Let the tankhammer boy use squigs as shooting attack and now on the charge you have 1 nob doing 4 S7 attacks, a boy doing 3 S8 attacks and one boy using a melta bomb all with Tank Hunter rule. That's more killy power for 10 pts less.
Interesting take.
5 naked bustas in a trukk w/ ram is 100 pts
5 bustas w/ a tankhammer and including a BCBP nob in a trukk w/ ram is 135 pts (and you need bomb squigs)
I don't know, a lot more killy in close combat but 35% more expensive. A bit more resilient though. I often play against skimmers so bomb squigs aren't auto-include for me...
Sad thing is we wouldn't have this conversation if GW didn't FAQ the grenades in close combat...
So there's always some debate about ork ranged infantry. Bustas or Lootas? Flashgitz at all? I remain steadfast that there's a bigger picture, so here it is. It compares shoota boyz to big shoota boyz, bikers to lootas, flashgitz to bustas. WPT is the amount of wounds per turn you can expect the full amount of shots to get. PP is how many points those wounds cost you. Generally when people reccomend flashgitz, they totally forget PP (or Per Point). Paranthesis will refer to TL weapons, and greater/lesser than will represent tank hunter. The weapon that causes the most wounds per turn per point per enemy will be highlighted. GEQ is T3 5+, CEQ is T3 4+. (AM w/ Carapace, Some Eldar Aspect Warriors.)
Vs AV12
Deffgun - 0.22 [0.016]
Rokkit - <0.25> [0.019]
Vs AV 13
Deffgun - 0.11 [0.008]
Rokkit - <0.19> [0.015]
Vs AV 14
Rokkit - <0.10> [0.005]
You can see the issue with snazzgunz. May seem to be effective on the table but when you look at the bigger picture you handicap the rest of your force. It's never the worst option, unless you're targeting a vehicle, but they're solidly bottom tier. I could expand on this if there's interest, I thought about including Necrons and MEQ/GEC bikers. I could try an overall score too, but I'd have to weigh the categories, they aren't all as common as the other.
E: Discovered a small error w/r/t the rokkit MEQ values and it has now been fixed. It actually gives them the top spot there by a hair.
My use of your math (thank you btw) might be a touch wrong, please forgive me in advance;
38 Tankbustas could fire at an AV14 Tank with no cover save and maybe do 3 Hull Points.
64 Tankbustas could fire at an AV13 walker with 4++ and maybe do 6 Hull Points of damage.
36 Tankbustas could fire at a Wraithknight with no save and maybe do 6 wounds.
Tankbustas, point for point, are 'raw-numbers' better at shooting AV14/AV13/Wraithknights then anything else in our codex, and I feel it takes an unreasonable amount of tankbustas to get results. I was running 30 of them in a Blitz Brigade as sort of answer to an IH Land Raider Spearhead. I will never forget that one game 15 of them fired at a Land Raider Redeemer and totaled it. Many games the shooting barely scratched that AV14 -->>The best shooting solution orkz have for AV14 -->>barely scratched AV14.
ProwlerPC wrote: Min squad of Tankbustas with one tankhammer and a nob with big choppy is 90 pts. 5 pts each for boss pole and squig bombs are auto take. Let the tankhammer boy use squigs as shooting attack and now on the charge you have 1 nob doing 4 S7 attacks, a boy doing 3 S8 attacks and one boy using a melta bomb all with Tank Hunter rule. That's more killy power for 10 pts less.
Interesting take.
5 naked bustas in a trukk w/ ram is 100 pts
5 bustas w/ a tankhammer and including a BCBP nob in a trukk w/ ram is 135 pts (and you need bomb squigs)
I don't know, a lot more killy in close combat but 35% more expensive. A bit more resilient though. I often play against skimmers so bomb squigs aren't auto-include for me...
Sad thing is we wouldn't have this conversation if GW didn't FAQ the grenades in close combat...
I probably should have quoted it but my post was in response to another post claiming never take tankhammers and put a pk on the nob instead. As I mention it's the one unit I wouldn't do that as the unit provides a cheaper more efficient option.
My ork list that runs 14 Deffkoptas and I barely scratched a WK. I think I did 2 wounds over the course of 2 games. Both Eldar lists ran WK, I mean why wouldn't you. Doesn't matter if you ignore his armor when they sit in ruins or simply get a 5+. Quick math: 18 TL-shots > 10 hit > 5 wounds > 2-3 blocked by 4-5+ cover > 1-2 more get blocked by FNP > 1-2 wounds go through. Again rough in-game mathhammer but that's 18 TL rokkits only doing 2 wounds --- WITH TL. When you compare it to Tankbustas it gets worse. I understand that you might have more shots but they are less accurate, get killed in groups of 5-15, get less toughness, less saves, and are a lot slower.
After those two piss poor experiences, I've given up on killing WK and I just bubble wrap my artillery with 10 boyz now. Let him come to me and try to spread my threats out.
Tankbustas never did it for me. The deffkoptas lack TH, but the mobility and durability out weigh all pros from a tankbusta. I mean, I don't remember the last time my boyz lost against a mechanized list. Tankhunters is a pointless buff when you can just turboboost a solo deffkopta and contest late game.
tldr - Pros versus cons: I'm going Deffkopta every time.
I stopped running tankbustas in favor of more trukks and solo kannons. Not that they're bad - they just don't do much. And kannons are cheaper when you need to cap backfield objectives. Plus i need more trukks to support the meganob rush. Don't want to leave 200+ pt squads standing in the middle of nowhere when you can just pick them up with a spare trukk and move forward.
No way an ork list could bring down a WK by shooting. Not even with 60 rokkits. Those S8 ap3 weapons are not suited for killing AV14 or semi immortal things like WKs, they are quite useful against MEQ and Av10-12, maybe 13, that's their room.
Against AV14 and T8 multiwounds units we litterally have nothing but power klaws if we really want to take these things down.
Solo kannons could be nice but even going double cad you can only field 6. Empty trukks are fast attacks so they compete with tankbustas only in terms of points. I think min tankbustas in trukks are good if you bring 2 or (even better) 3 of them. If the opponent shoots at them instead of the advancing boyz/meganobz/bikes it's good, if they are ignored they could do some damage and in case of necessity they provide 2-3 melta bombs around the battlefield.
But you have to go with a super fast army that relies on trukk spam to get a nice synergy with tankbustas. Or a blitzbrigade.
14 deffkoptas means 5 CADs or units that have more than single koptas, it doesn't seem a great deal to me. If you field 3-6 it should be enough.
Blackie wrote: Empty trukks are fast attacks so they compete with tankbustas only in terms of points.
I'm always short on points. Not telling it's some kind of truth set in stone but just from my experience, i'm better off with 10 naked choppaboyz in a trukk than 5 tankbustas. Boyz are obsec, they fill the cad requirement and they're decently choppy and numerous for points to threaten the backfield or add 30+ s4 attacks where needed. Sure, there are occasions when i'd rather have a couple more rokkits but there wasn't even one out of 10 or so games where i felt that 5 tankbustas were good. Whereas 10 naked trukkboyz were valuable. For comparable amount of points.
Blackie wrote: Empty trukks are fast attacks so they compete with tankbustas only in terms of points.
I'm always short on points. Not telling it's some kind of truth set in stone but just from my experience, i'm better off with 10 naked choppaboyz in a trukk than 5 tankbustas. Boyz are obsec, they fill the cad requirement and they're decently choppy and numerous for points to threaten the backfield or add 30+ s4 attacks where needed. Sure, there are occasions when i'd rather have a couple more rokkits but there wasn't even one out of 10 or so games where i felt that 5 tankbustas were good. Whereas 10 naked trukkboyz were valuable. For comparable amount of points.
I'm always short on points too Yeah trukk boyz are nice, but I usually take 5 of them all with pk nobz when I run trukks rush and 3 min squads of tankbustas, these units are not in competition in my lists. Plus bikes (or other trukks) and shooty stuff. 5 tankbustas are not good, you need at least 10, but 15 are the best option in my opinion. Of course you need also a lot of other assault oriented and fast units with them, but I don't feel comfortable if I don't have at least 20 rokkits on the battlefield and a lot of S5 shots too
That's probably cause of the playstyle. Currently, i'm running bully boyz that eat up 750+ pts. They're always backed up by a full unit of lobbas with ammo runts and VSG. So, it's 950-1000 pts allready reserved. Than i need other stuff like a bikerboss with 1-3 koptas or probably a megaboss with boyz in a trukk, some troops - grots and trukkboyz and than there are some backfield objective campers alongside lobbas like other mek guns or lootas. Previously i had some points for a tankbusta squad but lately i'm running naked boyz instead.
As for taking pk nobz in boy squads, that's extra 35 pts. Doesn't seem like much for added utility but it's 50% of the squad's cost, it adds fast and when i allready have bully boyz and a bikerboss it's not always mandatory for the job they have to do. I used to always get a pk for trukkboyz but than i participated in a 1250 tourney where i was running bully boyz and a biker boss with a kopta and only had points enough for 10 boyz in a ram trukk. And they did good. So i decided to just continue running them this way.
Yes... Ork 2+ saves are not the same as marine 2+ saves. The current granularity of points isn't enough.
I would love to see horde armies get some sort of discount for larger units.
Buy 10 for 60 points...
Buy 20 for 110 points...
Buy 30 for 150 points, etc.
Or for Meganobs
3 for 120 points
6 for 210 points
9 for 270 points
Anpu-adom wrote: Yes... Ork 2+ saves are not the same as marine 2+ saves. The current granularity of points isn't enough.
I would love to see horde armies get some sort of discount for larger units.
Buy 10 for 60 points...
Buy 20 for 110 points...
Buy 30 for 150 points, etc.
Or for Meganobs
3 for 120 points
6 for 210 points
9 for 270 points
Or just free upgrades like so many armies have:
35 point discount on DT's if running 6 Troops, Free Nob upgrade in Boyz mobs, free Rokkits or Big Shootas. A million things to slightly boost Orks yet easily increase GW sales.
I love the bullyboyz too but I find more enjoying and rewarding a full MSU style, having 8 different units (5 boyz and 3 bikes) with pks, plus a lot of S8, S7 and S5 shots is a lot of fun.
Unfortunately I face a lot of AP2 which completely screw the efficiency of the bullyboyz.
I'd really love to try the VSG to protect them, but I'm too lazy to scratch build one (I have too many unfinished projects that have priority) and I'm not interested in buying one as it's extremely expensive and doesn't look orkish at all. Still looking forward to try it though
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Yes... Ork 2+ saves are not the same as marine 2+ saves. The current granularity of points isn't enough.
I would love to see horde armies get some sort of discount for larger units.
Buy 10 for 60 points...
Buy 20 for 110 points...
Buy 30 for 150 points, etc.
Or for Meganobs
3 for 120 points
6 for 210 points
9 for 270 points
I'd prefer having a formation like the SM gladius which gives orks free trukks. It also suits orks better than SM.
It's fine for both of them, as the low-firepower armies need a points handicap vs Xeno firepower. Without gladius, you get.... BA. And yes, marines and Orks are both low firepower.
I strongly suspect that free formations like gladius are going away in 8th edition (and thank goodness, as it is a super bad idea!) Looking of AoS battalions, expect to pay some points like in the old Apoc days.
I'd rather see ork unit sizes increased to 50 models. Models adjusted to 5ppm.
And character based unit wide effects
Painboy 5+fnp Mekboy 5++ to unit with KFF Weirdboy +2 str buff to unit psychic primaris power (lvl 1)
Orknob same as now but bosspole is included
(KFF and powerklaw should go down in price to 15pts)
(Painboy and weirdboy 25ppm, mek and nob 15ppm)
The above should be a 1 model per unit upgrade
And the hq section would have the following independent characters
Painboss 5+ fnp to unit and reroll
Mekboss 4++ to unit with MFF
Warpead same as weirdboy and psychic roll bonus (lvl 2-3)
Warboss same as currently with bosspole included and can call waagh each turn.
(Painboss, mekboss and warpead 35ppm)
(Painboss should have access to painklaw 2+ poison ap2 klaw 25ppm)
(MFF should cost 25ppm)
This means you can have 50+ man mini greentide units with +2 str, reroll mob rule, 5+ fnp, 5++ invul that can move run and charge each turn. Giving you a durable unit with a ton of str5 (6 on charge ap- atks) with ok movement for 360points. You can upgrade those stats with an HQIC as well.
Ork just need more unit wife buffing ICs to support the horde army theme.
gungo wrote: I'd rather see ork unit sizes increased to 50 models. Models adjusted to 5ppm.
And character based unit wide effects
Painboy 5+fnp Mekboy 5++ to unit with KFF Weirdboy +2 str buff to unit psychic primaris power (lvl 1)
Orknob same as now but bosspole is included
(KFF and powerklaw should go down in price to 15pts)
(Painboy and weirdboy 25ppm, mek and nob 15ppm)
The above should be a 1 model per unit upgrade
And the hq section would have the following independent characters
Painboss 5+ fnp to unit and reroll
Mekboss 4++ to unit with MFF
Warpead same as weirdboy and psychic roll bonus (lvl 2-3)
Warboss same as currently with bosspole included and can call waagh each turn.
(Painboss, mekboss and warpead 35ppm)
(Painboss should have access to painklaw 2+ poison ap2 klaw 25ppm)
(MFF should cost 25ppm)
This means you can have 50+ man mini greentide units with +2 str, reroll mob rule, 5+ fnp, 5++ invul that can move run and charge each turn. Giving you a durable unit with a ton of str5 (6 on charge ap- atks) with ok movement for 360points. You can upgrade those stats with an HQIC as well.
Ork just need more unit wife buffing ICs to support the horde army theme.
Part of the problem with this is that if you try to use a 50-model HQ-buffed deathstar, you'll have to walk everywhere with a massive unwieldy unit that needs to get into charge range to do anything. Also, maybe this is something for a new thread in the proposed rules section.
That's also kinda boring moving all those boyz. I've never fielded units on foot, moving units of 50 dudes would be a nightmare and games would last 1 hour more
Blackie wrote: No way an ork list could bring down a WK by shooting. Not even with 60 rokkits. Those S8 ap3 weapons are not suited for killing AV14 or semi immortal things like WKs, they are quite useful against MEQ and Av10-12, maybe 13, that's their room.
Against AV14 and T8 multiwounds units we litterally have nothing but power klaws if we really want to take these things down.
Solo kannons could be nice but even going double cad you can only field 6. Empty trukks are fast attacks so they compete with tankbustas only in terms of points. I think min tankbustas in trukks are good if you bring 2 or (even better) 3 of them. If the opponent shoots at them instead of the advancing boyz/meganobz/bikes it's good, if they are ignored they could do some damage and in case of necessity they provide 2-3 melta bombs around the battlefield.
But you have to go with a super fast army that relies on trukk spam to get a nice synergy with tankbustas. Or a blitzbrigade.
14 deffkoptas means 5 CADs or units that have more than single koptas, it doesn't seem a great deal to me. If you field 3-6 it should be enough.
14 Deffkoptas fits in a single Ork Decurion with 2 Core slots and 2-20 auxiliary.
It takes 11 Deffkoptas with TL Rokkits to hit a WK 6 times. 3 wounds go thru its Toughness and 1 goes thru its FNP. We are assuming the WK gets no cover and is in open ground (as the WK is coming towards your army).
11 Deffkoptas per 1 unsaved wound. 66 Deffkopta shots.
With 14 Deffkoptas shooting every turn it'll take almost all game. I also had 2x4 Mek Guns (S8 AP2) that almost always hit with Grot BS and WK's base size. With a little bit a luck and no cover saves, it's possible to kill the WK in 3 turns, but it's super inefficient.
Hence, I gave up on killing WK with my rokkits. It's Stompa with D hits or bust.
gungo wrote: I'd rather see ork unit sizes increased to 50 models. Models adjusted to 5ppm.
And character based unit wide effects
Painboy 5+fnp Mekboy 5++ to unit with KFF Weirdboy +2 str buff to unit psychic primaris power (lvl 1)
Orknob same as now but bosspole is included
(KFF and powerklaw should go down in price to 15pts)
(Painboy and weirdboy 25ppm, mek and nob 15ppm)
The above should be a 1 model per unit upgrade
And the hq section would have the following independent characters
Painboss 5+ fnp to unit and reroll
Mekboss 4++ to unit with MFF
Warpead same as weirdboy and psychic roll bonus (lvl 2-3)
Warboss same as currently with bosspole included and can call waagh each turn.
(Painboss, mekboss and warpead 35ppm)
(Painboss should have access to painklaw 2+ poison ap2 klaw 25ppm)
(MFF should cost 25ppm)
This means you can have 50+ man mini greentide units with +2 str, reroll mob rule, 5+ fnp, 5++ invul that can move run and charge each turn. Giving you a durable unit with a ton of str5 (6 on charge ap- atks) with ok movement for 360points. You can upgrade those stats with an HQIC as well.
Ork just need more unit wife buffing ICs to support the horde army theme.
Part of the problem with this is that if you try to use a 50-model HQ-buffed deathstar, you'll have to walk everywhere with a massive unwieldy unit that needs to get into charge range to do anything. Also, maybe this is something for a new thread in the proposed rules section.
It's basically a greentide style list nothing near a deathstar and only one option under this design. It's also significantly faster than the 100+ model greentide.
If you want trukk spam you can still do 10man units with 2 characters of your choice.
If you want bike stars you can add characters on bikes to them as well.
If you want dred mobs they too can benefit from cheaper meks with KFF embarked on them.
But regardless orks have always been a horde army. If you want a Death Star it would have to be the ghaz council formation and even that will gain a slight benefit from reduced costs from above list.
Quad CAD won another game last night 14 objectives to 7, this time versus Sisters of Battle. Opp ran a formation that all troops could walk back on after rolling a 5+ after being destroyed. All mounted in Twinlinked heavy flamed and multimelta Sister's Rhinos. Also had a couple of Str 8 AP 1 organ launchers in the back. The opponent had a gleeful time landing rerolling to wound heavy flamers on my Trukks. Even with getting first turn the opponent easily scored First Blood.
The real problem was his deathstar: St Celestine with her crew! You've heard the stories and they are true! Her personal damage output was low due to her AP 3 weapon, she had plenty of tricks to keep her in the fight. Eternal Warrior, a single Lt. resurrects automatically each turn, army wide 6++ Inv, other models having AP 2 weapons, army wide Hatred!
So many flamers = so many dead Orks. Overwatch was heavily mitigated by lone boys or Deffkoptas charging first. The entire game was on his side of the table so fresh units would walk on with flamers and heavy flamers to roast my deleted and wounded troops.
In the end it all came down to getting more objectives. I was able to kill Celestine at the bottom of 5th and the opponent rolled a 2 and the game ended so she herself never resurrected. Happy with Quad CAD!
Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.
PipeAlley wrote: Quad CAD won another game last night 14 objectives to 7, this time versus Sisters of Battle. Opp ran a formation that all troops could walk back on after rolling a 5+ after being destroyed. All mounted in Twinlinked heavy flamed and multimelta Sister's Rhinos. Also had a couple of Str 8 AP 1 organ launchers in the back. The opponent had a gleeful time landing rerolling to wound heavy flamers on my Trukks. Even with getting first turn the opponent easily scored First Blood.
The real problem was his deathstar: St Celestine with her crew! You've heard the stories and they are true! Her personal damage output was low due to her AP 3 weapon, she had plenty of tricks to keep her in the fight. Eternal Warrior, a single Lt. resurrects automatically each turn, army wide 6++ Inv, other models having AP 2 weapons, army wide Hatred!
So many flamers = so many dead Orks. Overwatch was heavily mitigated by lone boys or Deffkoptas charging first. The entire game was on his side of the table so fresh units would walk on with flamers and heavy flamers to roast my deleted and wounded troops.
In the end it all came down to getting more objectives. I was able to kill Celestine at the bottom of 5th and the opponent rolled a 2 and the game ended so she herself never resurrected. Happy with Quad CAD!
Awesome! Did you use the same list you as against Harlequins? (4 MAWB + boyz in trukk, 4 MAWB + boyz in looted wagons, 8 koptas, 4 lobbas)
Was there a time when you'd have like to have paid for barebone nobz or cybork bodies?
gungo wrote: Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.
New buggies makes a lot of sense. In a Ghazghkull Thraka themed release it makes zero sense. Come on GW, give us a speedfreaks themed release!
PipeAlley wrote: Quad CAD won another game last night 14 objectives to 7, this time versus Sisters of Battle. Opp ran a formation that all troops could walk back on after rolling a 5+ after being destroyed. All mounted in Twinlinked heavy flamed and multimelta Sister's Rhinos. Also had a couple of Str 8 AP 1 organ launchers in the back. The opponent had a gleeful time landing rerolling to wound heavy flamers on my Trukks. Even with getting first turn the opponent easily scored First Blood.
The real problem was his deathstar: St Celestine with her crew! You've heard the stories and they are true! Her personal damage output was low due to her AP 3 weapon, she had plenty of tricks to keep her in the fight. Eternal Warrior, a single Lt. resurrects automatically each turn, army wide 6++ Inv, other models having AP 2 weapons, army wide Hatred!
So many flamers = so many dead Orks. Overwatch was heavily mitigated by lone boys or Deffkoptas charging first. The entire game was on his side of the table so fresh units would walk on with flamers and heavy flamers to roast my deleted and wounded troops.
In the end it all came down to getting more objectives. I was able to kill Celestine at the bottom of 5th and the opponent rolled a 2 and the game ended so she herself never resurrected. Happy with Quad CAD!
Awesome! Did you use the same list you as against Harlequins? (4 MAWB + boyz in trukk, 4 MAWB + boyz in looted wagons, 8 koptas, 4 lobbas)
Was there a time when you'd have like to have paid for barebone nobz or cybork bodies?
gungo wrote: Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.
New buggies makes a lot of sense. In a Ghazghkull Thraka themed release it makes zero sense. Come on GW, give us a speedfreaks themed release!
Exact same list that you quoted. Absolutely would have loved Naked Nobz to absorb some of the challenges, especially and obviously against his Str 6 AP 2 wielding sword dudes (ladies?)!! Such an expensive upgrade when it's times 8! Also a Str 4 model would be helpful when multicharging vehicles to be able to possibly hurt fear armor 10. Orks should have an army wide rule that they are never penalized for disorganized assaults, should still get the Furious Charge and extra attack, at least during the freaking Waaagh!
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Codex Armageddon is why I started Orks back in 2001.
Wow, a buggy kit would be great. We've literally had the current models since second edition. The oldest models still in use that I'm aware of.
I hope it's super modular and can be used to make a deffkopta, too. The metal deffkopta kit is lame and I have no idea why they never released the plastic one as a standalone kit after they discontinued Black Reach.
I love my rokkit buggy. I don't have a deffkopta so I use my buggy in a similar way, to grab objectives and distract the enemy. The nice thing about a vehicle (compared to a single jet bike) is that I can throw it in front of an enemy tank and force them to Move around or Ram, which greatly limits what they can do that turn much more than tank shocking does.
The big problem, as others have mentioned, is that Fast Attack is the most crowded spot in a good Ork list. We need a Speed Freak option. I never understood why the different Ork klans don't have different army selection options or special rules like the other factions, such as Marine chapters or Eldar craftworlds.
A speed freaks orks detachment similar to the dark eldar one with 6 FA slots would be amazing.
I usually run orks as speed freeks with lots of vehicles and bikes and I'd really want some love from GW about that style of playing as in the current edition we didn't get a single formation that fits the theme.
PipeAlley wrote: Exact same list that you quoted. Absolutely would have loved Naked Nobz to absorb some of the challenges, especially and obviously against his Str 6 AP 2 wielding sword dudes (ladies?)!! Such an expensive upgrade when it's times 8! Also a Str 4 model would be helpful when multicharging vehicles to be able to possibly hurt fear armor 10. Orks should have an army wide rule that they are never penalized for disorganized assaults, should still get the Furious Charge and extra attack, at least during the freaking Waaagh!
The Codex Armageddon is why I started Orks back in 2001.
Yeah that's an expensive upgrade but I think it's worth it. I'll be puting barebone nobz in my 1000 pts list. And note the times where I would have liked to have cybork bodies, hehe.
Army wide rule for no disorganized assaults? That would be fluffly and awesome! I'd take that instead of the silly "HoW if you roll 10" assaults".
The Riddle of Steel wrote: I hope it's super modular and can be used to make a deffkopta, too. The metal deffkopta kit is lame and I have no idea why they never released the plastic one as a standalone kit after they discontinued Black Reach.
I doubt they make it for a buggy and a kopta, they already need to address the buggy vs trakk option. I hope they make it customizable asf, unlike the trukk, mek gun or battlewagon kits. As for AoBR koptas, you should look for used ones on eBay, Craigslist or NobleKnight.
Blackie wrote: A speed freaks orks detachment similar to the dark eldar one with 6 FA slots would be amazing.
I usually run orks as speed freeks with lots of vehicles and bikes and I'd really want some love from GW about that style of playing as in the current edition we didn't get a single formation that fits the theme.
The fact most of our competitve units don't get any formations is quite disturbing... GW knows we will buy them anyway, why bother making nice formations?
Blackie wrote:
A speed freaks orks detachment similar to the dark eldar one with 6 FA slots would be amazing.
I usually run orks as speed freeks with lots of vehicles and bikes and I'd really want some love from GW about that style of playing as in the current edition we didn't get a single formation that fits the theme.
The fact most of our competitve units don't get any formations is quite disturbing... GW knows we will buy them anyway, why bother making nice formations?
That is old GW. New GW hasn't touched Orks, Nids, or Necrons yet.
Personally while it would be nice to get some speed freaks stuff I'd rather have a thing for each clan. I personally prefer the snakebites, blood axes, and goffs over speed freaks, bad moons, and deff skullz.
Snake bites require a bunch of unique models I kinda wish forgeworld took over that line with boarboyz, squiggoths, gargantuan squiggoths, squids, etc.
bloodaxes are really just one type of elite unit
Goffs are pretty much every ork release at present
Speed freak is currently our strongest units and literally have no formations for bikes, buggies, deffkoptas, skorchas, trukks, traks, or big guns.
Badmoon always felt like yellow colored goffs. I guess you can say they have more mega armour and pirate orks.
Deff skulls gravitate more to looted wagons and stuff and feel like more of a goff army with a ton of converted models.
Yes speed freaks is the current strongest way to play but wouldn't it be great if there were other good ways to build a list as well? I agree snakebites would take work so they aren't very likely. The blood axes are more than just kommandos they tend to have more stormboyz and armored columns as well. Since when are big guns a speed freak thing? They move slower than anything else. They are good but that doesn't make them speed freaks. The rest of the things you listed could use some cool formations and such to run an army out of them.
gungo wrote: Big guns aren't speed freaks just annoyed they don't have a formation either.
Our only good units with a decent formation is meganobs and maybe battlewagons (but it's really expensive). We need a good speed freak book.
Or allowing our special character and formations to assault after arriving from reserves: Snikrot and Zagstruk. Also Snikrot should be able to combine the mobs ala Zagstruk, three PK Nobs with special character and extra Boyz for wounds could damage a lot of opponents if they didn't have to wait a turn being shot to pieces. While we're at it: some grenades that deny overwatch would be nice
gungo wrote: Hastings is stating new ork buggies are coming out in the near future in a thraka themed release. I'm hoping there is more to this release than that because orks can really use a speedfreak themed campaign supplement. I'd love to see the return of wazdakka and his twinlinked battlecannon bike and some formations for bikes deffkoptas and buggies.
New buggies would be awesome. I've wanted buggies/traks for ages but couldn't justify to myself the time or energy I'd need to convert them to be visually consistent with the newer line of Ork models :(
Lately GW has seemed... different, somehow. I find myself actually WANTING them to take another shot at our faction... maybe just too much fungus beer...
gungo wrote: Big guns aren't speed freaks just annoyed they don't have a formation either.
Our only good units with a decent formation is meganobs and maybe battlewagons (but it's really expensive). We need a good speed freak book.
Or allowing our special character and formations to assault after arriving from reserves: Snikrot and Zagstruk. Also Snikrot should be able to combine the mobs ala Zagstruk, three PK Nobs with special character and extra Boyz for wounds could damage a lot of opponents if they didn't have to wait a turn being shot to pieces. While we're at it: some grenades that deny overwatch would be nice
I can see the assault after deepstrike formations making a comeback for orks however if we are into wishlisting now.
Give all walkers ere we go so they can move, run and charge in a waaagh
And give all ork vehicles the wazbom blastjet stikkbomb flinga instead of the redundant stikk bomb chukka as well. 5++ would go a long way to fixing all the weak and easily killable ork walkers and trukks.
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Anpu-adom wrote: Make Mob Rule only once per turn would fix ork moral.
As for mob rule a once per turn effect would help fix the other major problem with playing orks. To much rolling and taking way to much time. Gw is never going to fix the issue with moving 100 boys but they can cut down on all the morale rolling.
give me +1 LD for every 5 models above minimum please.
Thing is, this mob rule gives small, elite squads a chance. Meganobz have a chance to autopass morale fails if they have a character in the unit. Otherwise, they'd be stuck at their terribly Ld 7. I think mob rule is actually a good thing, as it allows us to run smaller squads; it just got rid of a better morale rule. Don't get rid of mob rule, keep it and bring back the previous morale rule.
Except when you use the Waaagh! Supplement and your 2-9man units autofail. I like the idea of davou's Mob Rule as there is no negative. It simply buffs horde-style orks which promotes fluff. Small units will simply just be Ld7 and not be penalized anymore by random rolls. Orks don't need to be hurt anymore than the damage done by their own codex.
It's still not fearless like Mob Rule was in the past with large mobs but it's a start in the right direction I suppose.
The new Mob Rule is a mixed blessing. I play a lot of Trukk mobs, and while the rule helps very often to keep them committed to the fight, occasionally the downside is really punishing. It doesn't feel fun or fluffy when your mob of slugga boys spends its whole time on the board slowly killing itself off from Mob rule rolls made to avoid pinning tests and the like.
As was mentioned previously, I agree that a flat Ld bonus is not really going to cover all the use cases.
What about: a Ld bonus based on unit size, as well as a Ld bonus based on a character's presence, and with both combined the unit becomes Fearless, like the older mob rule?
I can't realy understand the mob rule (fluff wise). How can a unit of like 30 boyz with nob and bosspole get scared from a stupid pink horror as easily as one solo boy? And fluff-wise you have all those fearless CSM.
Because CSM are daemons, possessed or loyalists to daemons, they're a sort of demonic creatures themselves. Orks are just ignorant and stupid savages afterall.
Quick question: I'm attempting to scratch build a gork/morkanaut, which base does it have the big guy? the huge oval base (12x9.2 cm) or the large one (9x5.2 cm)? I'm pretty sure it's the huge oval base but I'd like some confrims.Thanks
Quick question: I'm attempting to scratch build a gork/morkanaut, which base does it have the big guy? the huge oval base (12x9.2 cm) or the large one (9x5.2 cm)? I'm pretty sure it's the huge oval base but I'd like some confrims.Thanks
The giant oval base, same as the Imperial Knights (170x110mm I think).
anyone know off hand what the minimum points are for the formations 'The Great Waaagh!-band' and 'Waaagh!-band' ?
Im having a hell of a time making any formations fit into a list using the models I have an how I've kitted them out without running out of points super quickly. How are you all doing it?
The Great Waaagh! Band Detachment is 509 pts naked.
60 Boyz, 10 Gretchin, 3 Nobs, Warboss, Mek.
I almost always run it naked. Depending on the list I add MA on the Warboss and sometimes bikes on the Nobs and/or Warboss. The Auxiliary slots are the reason I prefer the Great Waaagh! over the CADs. I lost obsec, but I gain MSU Aux. slots.
Thing is, this mob rule gives small, elite squads a chance. Meganobz have a chance to autopass morale fails if they have a character in the unit. Otherwise, they'd be stuck at their terribly Ld 7. I think mob rule is actually a good thing, as it allows us to run smaller squads; it just got rid of a better morale rule.
Early on someone argued this point but I still don't see it. And,.. I'm happy to say it's me with two wee ones keeping me up late at night.
Thing is, this mob rule gives small, elite squads a chance. Meganobz have a chance to autopass morale fails if they have a character in the unit. Otherwise, they'd be stuck at their terribly Ld 7. I think mob rule is actually a good thing, as it allows us to run smaller squads; it just got rid of a better morale rule.
Early on someone argued this point but I still don't see it. And,.. I'm happy to say it's me with two wee ones keeping me up late at night.
Meganobz, for example. They do best in squads of 3 in the MANz Missile style. Two MANz, one boss nob. Normally, they'd only have a Ld7 test. With Mob Rule, if they fail, they have a 66% chance of staying (if you brought your bosspole), and with their 2+ armor they won't take any wounds most likely. Same goes for squads like tankbustas, who usually have a character and will be taking Ld tests at Ld7 or so.
All this talk of mob rule has me remembering waaay back to the 3rd edition Codex: Orks. Anyone remember that mob rule? It had two parts, both good:
1. You made your leadership test as normal. If you fail, you roll a size check against your mob on 2d6 and if you roll under the size, you pass.
2. When orks fall back, they can move toward any ork mob behind their own position and if they get within 6" and pass a LD test, they join the mob and become rallied!
I loved those old ork rules. Very fluffy. Andy Chambers was the man. You can tell when a codex is written by an author who actually loves the army. The current ork codex does not have that feel.
Spoiler:
Other examples of fun, fluffy options we had back then were:
Kommandos could have shootas, and tankbusta bombz as options, making them feel like actual elites -and- the rules actually matched the models, which are covered in huge explosives!
Red paint job increased all moves by 1", not just flat out moves (not to mention the turbo boosta!). Really? That 1 extra inch was so game breaking they had to tone it down to only flat out moves?
Trukk boyz could bail out and reduce the chance of getting wounded in an explosion to a 6 instead of 4+.
Grotz could be used as a living shield when that was not part of the standard rules.
Your looted weapons and vehicles were actual Imperial weapons and vehicles with a chance of malfunction.
Choppas reduced armor saves to 4+ at best.
When Warbikers charged, they got to shoot their guns as the first attack of the first round of combat, meaning basically back to backing shooting attacks from them! And they granted a cover save to themselves and all units behind them from their dust cloud. Oh, and did I mention they were fearless and immune to morale checks? And we think warbikers in the current edition are good! These guys were amazing.
We had a Speed Freak list in Codex: Armageddon.
Obviously there were many things that were better/worse/different than the current edition. My point here is just that there were a lot of fun, fluffy rules, which made the orks very unique in the way they played and there were several viable options for an army.
Not only that, but they showed many examples of heavily converted and scratch-built models in the codex and explicitly encouraged the reader to scratch build their own ork vehicles! Can you imagine that with today's GW?
The original mob rule was simple to remember, elegant (no consulting a table during the action), had perfect fluff, and made the games fun. That's what army special rules should be, especially for orks.
Hm... I might try to convince my regular opponent to play a game of 3rd edition out of nostalgia!
Meganobz can tolerate mob rule so well because they are 2+ and 2W. Very, very few die to it, even when rolling 6 hits. Something like burna boyz....not so much. It's not the size of the squad that helps, it's the armor and wounds.
I played the latest iteration of my "QuadCAD" list for the final game of the current league cycle. I'll be bringing this list to an ITC event in June. ITC limits formations and/or detachments to three and only one duplicate. So I'll be taking all three from Codex Orks just to show we don't need no stinking (insulting) Formations!!
Two Ork Horde detachments each containing three MAWB's and three Boyz mobs, two of which will have a Nob. Can't spare the points for two of the units. Also six lone DeffKoptas.
Last detachment (which will be my Primary) is two MAWB's, one will be Warlord with DLS, with two mobs of Boyz both with Nobs, two lone Deffkoptas, and three units of single Lobbas to hold objectives.
All Boyz in Trukks of course.
Played against a IG player who had Pask in Punisher with five-shot plasma LRBT, a bunch of other LR's, a Wyvern, four units of Vets with varying special weapons all in Chimeras, and a formation of a Command Squad in a Chimera that can give orders to artillery. Also a lone Techpriest with Cyborg. Oh, and two units of Stormtroopers.
I get first turn, he doesn't seize. I move up with everything after scouting Deffkoptas Before first turn.
I cause some glances and pens and prevent three vehicles from firing at full BS which is all the matters. Trukks all flat out. I'm about 3" away from all this vehicles.
Bottom of first and he wrecks and explodes four Trukks. Flames some guys. That's about it. No Bosses lost. Top of second I shot and charge his entire army and destroy every vehicle except to and kill all his troops except the Tech priest, a squad of Vets in their Chimera with one HP remaining, his formation CS, and a Basilisk. Highlight of the game is when two bosses with 4 Boyz charge Pask and Plasma LR's and explode the Plasma one I take 4 wounds. I confidently saw I'll NOT look out sir any of the wounds since an unbounded MAWB should be able to handle it. Roll three 1's and a 2 and lose the WB!!!
The Riddle of Steel wrote: All this talk of mob rule has me remembering waaay back to the 3rd edition Codex: Orks. Anyone remember that mob rule? It had two parts, both good:
1. You made your leadership test as normal. If you fail, you roll a size check against your mob on 2d6 and if you roll under the size, you pass.
2. When orks fall back, they can move toward any ork mob behind their own position and if they get within 6" and pass a LD test, they join the mob and become rallied!
I loved those old ork rules. Very fluffy. Andy Chambers was the man. You can tell when a codex is written by an author who actually loves the army. The current ork codex does not have that feel.
Spoiler:
Other examples of fun, fluffy options we had back then were:
Kommandos could have shootas, and tankbusta bombz as options, making them feel like actual elites -and- the rules actually matched the models, which are covered in huge explosives!
Red paint job increased all moves by 1", not just flat out moves (not to mention the turbo boosta!). Really? That 1 extra inch was so game breaking they had to tone it down to only flat out moves?
Trukk boyz could bail out and reduce the chance of getting wounded in an explosion to a 6 instead of 4+.
Grotz could be used as a living shield when that was not part of the standard rules.
Your looted weapons and vehicles were actual Imperial weapons and vehicles with a chance of malfunction.
Choppas reduced armor saves to 4+ at best.
When Warbikers charged, they got to shoot their guns as the first attack of the first round of combat, meaning basically back to backing shooting attacks from them! And they granted a cover save to themselves and all units behind them from their dust cloud. Oh, and did I mention they were fearless and immune to morale checks? And we think warbikers in the current edition are good! These guys were amazing.
We had a Speed Freak list in Codex: Armageddon.
Obviously there were many things that were better/worse/different than the current edition. My point here is just that there were a lot of fun, fluffy rules, which made the orks very unique in the way they played and there were several viable options for an army.
Not only that, but they showed many examples of heavily converted and scratch-built models in the codex and explicitly encouraged the reader to scratch build their own ork vehicles! Can you imagine that with today's GW?
The original mob rule was simple to remember, elegant (no consulting a table during the action), had perfect fluff, and made the games fun. That's what army special rules should be, especially for orks.
Hm... I might try to convince my regular opponent to play a game of 3rd edition out of nostalgia!
3rd Edition Orks Codex is what got me into 40k as a kid. Like you said, it was an amazing book, the art and the fluff and the conversions...
It's hard to capture that 'feel' nowadays, but I know exactly how you feel when you say it was made by somebody with a love for the faction. 3rd Ed. Orks were the golden years!
PipeAlley wrote: I played the latest iteration of my "QuadCAD" list for the final game of the current league cycle. I'll be bringing this list to an ITC event in June. ITC limits formations and/or detachments to three and only one duplicate. So I'll be taking all three from Codex Orks just to show we don't need no stinking (insulting) Formations!!
Two Ork Horde detachments each containing three MAWB's and three Boyz mobs, two of which will have a Nob. Can't spare the points for two of the units. Also six lone DeffKoptas.
Last detachment (which will be my Primary) is two MAWB's, one will be Warlord with DLS, with two mobs of Boyz both with Nobs, two lone Deffkoptas, and three units of single Lobbas to hold objectives.
All Boyz in Trukks of course.
Played against a IG player who had Pask in Punisher with five-shot plasma LRBT, a bunch of other LR's, a Wyvern, four units of Vets with varying special weapons all in Chimeras, and a formation of a Command Squad in a Chimera that can give orders to artillery. Also a lone Techpriest with Cyborg. Oh, and two units of Stormtroopers.
I get first turn, he doesn't seize. I move up with everything after scouting Deffkoptas Before first turn.
I cause some glances and pens and prevent three vehicles from firing at full BS which is all the matters. Trukks all flat out. I'm about 3" away from all this vehicles.
Bottom of first and he wrecks and explodes four Trukks. Flames some guys. That's about it. No Bosses lost. Top of second I shot and charge his entire army and destroy every vehicle except to and kill all his troops except the Tech priest, a squad of Vets in their Chimera with one HP remaining, his formation CS, and a Basilisk. Highlight of the game is when two bosses with 4 Boyz charge Pask and Plasma LR's and explode the Plasma one I take 4 wounds. I confidently saw I'll NOT look out sir any of the wounds since an unbounded MAWB should be able to handle it. Roll three 1's and a 2 and lose the WB!!!
Neat! Would like to hear more of it. You obviously got lucky there. Ork trukk lists w/o vsg tend to be very 1-st turn dependent. Especially vs shooters.
Also you can get more stuff by taking a horde instead of cad - allows for 3 hq. You loose obsec though.
PipeAlley wrote: I played the latest iteration of my "QuadCAD" list for the final game of the current league cycle. I'll be bringing this list to an ITC event in June. ITC limits formations and/or detachments to three and only one duplicate. So I'll be taking all three from Codex Orks just to show we don't need no stinking (insulting) Formations!!
Two Ork Horde detachments each containing three MAWB's and three Boyz mobs, two of which will have a Nob. Can't spare the points for two of the units. Also six lone DeffKoptas.
Last detachment (which will be my Primary) is two MAWB's, one will be Warlord with DLS, with two mobs of Boyz both with Nobs, two lone Deffkoptas, and three units of single Lobbas to hold objectives.
All Boyz in Trukks of course.
Played against a IG player who had Pask in Punisher with five-shot plasma LRBT, a bunch of other LR's, a Wyvern, four units of Vets with varying special weapons all in Chimeras, and a formation of a Command Squad in a Chimera that can give orders to artillery. Also a lone Techpriest with Cyborg. Oh, and two units of Stormtroopers.
I get first turn, he doesn't seize. I move up with everything after scouting Deffkoptas Before first turn.
I cause some glances and pens and prevent three vehicles from firing at full BS which is all the matters. Trukks all flat out. I'm about 3" away from all this vehicles.
Bottom of first and he wrecks and explodes four Trukks. Flames some guys. That's about it. No Bosses lost. Top of second I shot and charge his entire army and destroy every vehicle except to and kill all his troops except the Tech priest, a squad of Vets in their Chimera with one HP remaining, his formation CS, and a Basilisk. Highlight of the game is when two bosses with 4 Boyz charge Pask and Plasma LR's and explode the Plasma one I take 4 wounds. I confidently saw I'll NOT look out sir any of the wounds since an unbounded MAWB should be able to handle it. Roll three 1's and a 2 and lose the WB!!!
That's what I'm talking about!
Not having a nob in each MAWB trukk is not that bad, you can deploy your nobless trukks farther away from their "dangerous" characters so your MAWB doesn't fear to get challenged. Something like a nob in ~66% of the MAWB trukks could be ok.
Do you bring bosspoles on your MAWB? Normally it's an auto-include but I know you were still thinking about it.
The Riddle of Steel wrote: All this talk of mob rule has me remembering waaay back to the 3rd edition Codex: Orks. Anyone remember that mob rule? It had two parts, both good:
1. You made your leadership test as normal. If you fail, you roll a size check against your mob on 2d6 and if you roll under the size, you pass.
2. When orks fall back, they can move toward any ork mob behind their own position and if they get within 6" and pass a LD test, they join the mob and become rallied!
I loved those old ork rules. Very fluffy. Andy Chambers was the man. You can tell when a codex is written by an author who actually loves the army. The current ork codex does not have that feel.
Spoiler:
Other examples of fun, fluffy options we had back then were:
Kommandos could have shootas, and tankbusta bombz as options, making them feel like actual elites -and- the rules actually matched the models, which are covered in huge explosives!
Red paint job increased all moves by 1", not just flat out moves (not to mention the turbo boosta!). Really? That 1 extra inch was so game breaking they had to tone it down to only flat out moves?
Trukk boyz could bail out and reduce the chance of getting wounded in an explosion to a 6 instead of 4+.
Grotz could be used as a living shield when that was not part of the standard rules.
Your looted weapons and vehicles were actual Imperial weapons and vehicles with a chance of malfunction.
Choppas reduced armor saves to 4+ at best.
When Warbikers charged, they got to shoot their guns as the first attack of the first round of combat, meaning basically back to backing shooting attacks from them! And they granted a cover save to themselves and all units behind them from their dust cloud. Oh, and did I mention they were fearless and immune to morale checks? And we think warbikers in the current edition are good! These guys were amazing.
We had a Speed Freak list in Codex: Armageddon.
Obviously there were many things that were better/worse/different than the current edition. My point here is just that there were a lot of fun, fluffy rules, which made the orks very unique in the way they played and there were several viable options for an army.
Not only that, but they showed many examples of heavily converted and scratch-built models in the codex and explicitly encouraged the reader to scratch build their own ork vehicles! Can you imagine that with today's GW?
The original mob rule was simple to remember, elegant (no consulting a table during the action), had perfect fluff, and made the games fun. That's what army special rules should be, especially for orks.
Hm... I might try to convince my regular opponent to play a game of 3rd edition out of nostalgia!
3rd Edition Orks Codex is what got me into 40k as a kid. Like you said, it was an amazing book, the art and the fluff and the conversions...
It's hard to capture that 'feel' nowadays, but I know exactly how you feel when you say it was made by somebody with a love for the faction. 3rd Ed. Orks were the golden years!
I started my 40k journey with the 3rd edition ork codex too Only with the 7th I started collecting and playing two other armies.
My Orks always surprise me in my battles, They either seem to fall flat on their faces or pull the most ridiculous comebacks I have ever seen. It seems that sometimes Gork and Mork smile on the Boyz (like my Grukk and a mob of 20 Boyz surviving 3 rounds of 5 Hornets shooting at them to have Grukk and the Nob destroy them all plus more) just when it seems like the odds are against them. On a more tactical note it seems that I also do better with a hard-hitting in your face list even if it's not optimal. One that I use has Grukk's Rippin' Krew and a CAD with a MA Big Mek with KFF and DLS, a Painboy, 3xMeganobz in a Trukk, 11xBoyz with PK Nob in a Trukk, a unit of Grotz, 9xKommandos with PK Nob and Snikrot, a Deffkopta, 5xWarbikers with PK Nob, 5xLootas, and 2 KMK Mek Gunz for 1500 pts. It's not competitive looking at it but I was able to win some good matches and tie a windrider spam list with him only having his 2 Farseer Windrider mini-deathstar left.
I just picked up Battle for Vedros to kickstart an Ork army, which comes with a Warboss, 12 Slugga Boyz (2 big shootas), 5 Nobz, and a Deffkopta. What's a logical expansion now? I know Nob squads aren't all that great so those Nobs will probably just lead some Boyz squads
War Kitten wrote: I just picked up Battle for Vedros to kickstart an Ork army, which comes with a Warboss, 12 Slugga Boyz (2 big shootas), 5 Nobz, and a Deffkopta. What's a logical expansion now? I know Nob squads aren't all that great so those Nobs will probably just lead some Boyz squads
More boyz and transports. A funny thing to do with the deffkopta is make it join up with a biker warboss or biker big mek to give it outflank. Otherwise just get more deffkoptas.
Alright, so Boyz and Trukks plus a few more Deffkoptas. Are there any more "must have" units? I know from my few games against Orks that Lootas seem to still be a decent choice
Oh. And exactly how many Boyz should I shoot to pick up ideally?
A lot of people are fans of minimum units of boyz in trukks. That's pretty much what I go with, or I'll put 20 in a wagon. Just another box of boyz should do it tbh.
As for solid units Lootas are definitely some of the best the orks have to offer. Tankbustas and Meganobz are another great choice for armor killing goodness.
Meganobz, Tankbustas, Lobbas, Lootas, Kannons are all good choices. I would consider these in that order, but take your pick! the Meganobz need a trukk badly, bustas might want one but the lootas are OK without.
Oh, and if you have been following PipeAlley's multiple-warboss games you might just try that...unfortunately there is no mega armoed warboss model so you have to use Ghazzy or just kitbatsh some of your own.
Yeah it's unfortunate about the Mega Boss, but one of my friends sent me a link to a Kromlech model that looks like it would serve just fine as a Mega Boss
War Kitten wrote: Alright, so Boyz and Trukks plus a few more Deffkoptas. Are there any more "must have" units? I know from my few games against Orks that Lootas seem to still be a decent choice
Oh. And exactly how many Boyz should I shoot to pick up ideally?
Exactly how much time and money do you want to spend on this hobby, exactly? Honestly, most of us Ork players might have other armies, but you always go back to them and you ALWAYS need more boyz.
But more seriously, if you want to aim for, say, a 2000pt list, about 60 boyz on foot is a nice target. Unless you want to do a Zhardsnark biker list. But even then, you'll still want some tankbustas or trukkboyz.
Yeah... I always say start with 60 boyz and then see what else is fun. I like Battlewagons, so I gave 6 of them. I also like the walkers, so I have a Dread Mob.
But start with 60 boys
I always thought maxing out boyz in trukks was the way to go. And for me, 'eavy armors were mandatory, since the new codex. A full 'ard boyz trukk with a PKBP nob is 195 pts and IMO that was the best choice for trukk boyz. 'Eavy armors protect you from explosions, mob rule, from small arms fire, in close combat, etc.
However, in the spirit of trukk spam and MSU lists, I see the point of fielding naked boyz instead of 'ard boyz. Do you prefer having 3 'ard boyz trukk (585 pts) or 4 boyz trukk (588 pts)? Depends on your list, I guess.
And most recently, I've seen people using 10 boyz (with nob) in trukks instead of 12. And I wondered why. Why not max out your number of boyz? I guess that in a MSU list, that's 12 points less for each trukk. And if your only goal is get that PK nob into close combat, these 2 boyz might not be really worth it.
But I thought about something else: exploding results and morale check! 10- and 12-boyz squads both need 3 losses for a morale check. If your trukk explodes, that's 2 less hits you get! That advantage is mostly visible with 'eavy armors.
I've calculated the difference between a 10 'ard boyz exploding trukk (9 + nob) and a 12 'ard boyz one (11 + nob). I went for average rolls for easier calculations (for example, a mob rule D6 hits has 50% chances of getting 3 hits and 50% of getting 4 hits). I've taken into account pinning check and ensuing losses to mob rule, whether or not the nob gets a wound (one less dead boy), etc. Here are the results:
11 'ard boyz + nob in an exploding trukk: Ready to go: 72.8% with 3.1 boyz lost
Pinned: 11.6% with 3.2 boyz lost
Fall back: 15.5% with 3.2 boyz lost
9 'ard boyz + nob in an exploding trukk: Ready to go: 74.1% (+1.3) with 2.5 boyz lost (-0.6)
Pinned: 17.3% (+5.7) with 2.3 boyz lost (-0.9)
Fall back: 8.6% (-7.0) with 3.2 boyz lost (=)
All in all, by having fewer boyz in an exploding trukk, you stay put more often, you're pinned more often, and you fall back less often, all that with 0.6 less lost boyz. And of course, that's 20 pts cheaper. Pretty awesome!
These benefits will still apply with naked boyz in trukks, but won't be as important. They are more based on lucky rolls; it's harder to lose only 2 boyz in an explosion without 'eavy armors, it won't happen with average rolls. The calculations are also more complicated, that's why I won't do it!
Anyway, I find these results pretty awesome. I will definitely bring 10-boyz trukks more often!
The only reason I bring ten Boyz in a Trukk is to fit the MAWB.
I like the math you did. Here's a comparison between a PK Nob vs a MAWB, both with BP:
Nob is 46 points vs MAWB is 105
Right off the bat you can get twice as many Nobs as MAWB's. Sounds good so far. Here's what you get for the extra 59 points:
+1 to WS, S, T, W, I, A
+2 to Ld 2+ armor save with a 2+ LoS and the ability for the MAWB to ditch depleted units that can either sacrifice themselves charging into Overwatch or claim an objective somewhere while the MAWB attaches to another, fuller Boyz mob or even a Deffkopta.
Backing up a bit the higher WS means your always-Str-10-attacks will hit more often and do more damage especially to vehicles while your extra wound and T will allow you to survive and/or accept challenges a Nob could never hope to survive.
And thens there's the most important flaw in the current Ork Codex: Leadership! The +2 can mean the difference between fleeing after and exploded Trukk or Gork-forbid lost close combat phase or passing. The slightly higher Int would make it easier for any Boyz or Deffkoptas without an attached MAWB Sweeping Advance. Also my favorite tactic is to chain multi assault as many units as possible especially vehicles due to the fact that each Pentrating Hit counts as 2 wounds for CC resolution. For some odd reason the rules allow you to get more Pens than the vehicle has HP's. Pile on 10 Str 10 auto Pens onto that Chimera and watch the opponent take Ld 2 test for each unit.
I'd like to see the comparison between MAWB lead Boyz in Trukks vs either Eavy Armour PKWB with PK Nobs and/or Painboyz.
U know what Ive been thinking, and I hate to say it cause I love MANz.
I think Id much rather, in most scenarios, take Min bustas with Pk nob than MANz. Not sure how the math works out but thinking the Bustas are much more versatile and can kinda do the things you need MANz to do on occasion with the Nob. Obviously super glass cannon but so is most everything else in the codex.
Most lists Ive been building max out elites with bustas and nob claw.
Havent had ton of time to play games but if anyone wants to try the list out and lemme know what they think:
+ HQ +
Painboy [75pts]: Warbike
Warboss [140pts]: Bosspole, Gift: Da Lucky Stikk, Power Klaw, Slugga, Warbike
+ Troops +
Boyz [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Bosspole, Power Klaw, Slugga
·· 9x Boy
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha
Boyz [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Bosspole, Power Klaw, Slugga
·· 9x Boy
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha
+ Elites +
Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha
Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha
Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha
Tankbustas [135pts]
·· Boss Nob: Power Klaw
·· 4x Tankbusta
·· Trukk: Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [287pts]
·· 13x Warbiker
·· Warbiker Nob: Power Klaw
Anpu-adom wrote: Painboys as upgrades for Nob units again... please. That would force me to buy 3-4 of the plastic Painboy kit and make Nobs usable.
Heck, if Painboys were like slotless Meks, I'd take them every game.
Or, you know, give all Orks FNP 6+, and allow Painboyz to improve that. I can dream, right?
Anpu-adom wrote: Painboys as upgrades for Nob units again... please. That would force me to buy 3-4 of the plastic Painboy kit and make Nobs usable.
Heck, if Painboys were like slotless Meks, I'd take them every game.
Or, you know, give all Orks FNP 6+, and allow Painboyz to improve that. I can dream, right?
We'll see what happens in 8th edition.
I've been playing Nurgle Demons in AoS and I love how the whole army has FNP.
Not a lot of offensive power but insane durability.
Orks could be that army in 40K as you described. Cybork body could either add one more up to 3+ or just revert to 5++ Inv. Nob Bikers could ride again!!!
Painboys as standard HQs are among the few buffs orks had with 7th ed. A painboy with boyz, meganobz or bikers is way more efficient than a painboy in a unit of nobz.
Nobz models are good only to lead units of boyz IMHO as I can't stand the nob that can be built from the boyz kit.
I don't see how they can be a viable unit in the future.
The whole system of instant death needs to be reworked. There's too many high str/instant death weapons now in 40k where every new fancy character has eternal warrior to compensate. This leaves multi wound non independent characters, that can be hidden/look out sir! to mooks, at the bottom of the barrel. Ork nobz, Tyranids warriors, Ogryns, even centurions to a lesser extent.
Slotless painboys would be awesome, but army-wide fnp would actually be more fluffy. It would fix much of the overcosting we currently have. Is a shoota boy worth 7 points? no, but a 5+ fnp shoota boy is.
6 pts boy with Choppa / Slugga with 6+ save isn't that overcosted - or overcosted at all.
14 pts Marine has WS/BS 4, S4, T4, 1W, 1A, Ld8, 3+ Armor
6 Ork has WS4, BS4, S3, 4 on Charge, T4, 3A, Ld7, 6+, aka 5+ Cover.
Stat for stat you're paying for less durability, less shooting potential, and more attacks for half the cost.
Even when you compare it to Shoota Boys you're looking at Assault 2 weapons with 18" range at BS2. That's 55% hit chance on average. When compared to Rapid Fire 24" Bolters. That's 1 hit on 66% hit chance unless you are in charge range.
Armor save vs Cover Save is a big difference, but with 2 Attacks base compared to 1 Attack at a half price discount. I'll take boys. FNP just makes the comparison ridiculous.
I won't even comment on the AP6 or better / Ignore Cover aspects since there are almost just as much AP3 weaponry out there that has the potential to Ignore Cover as well.
Raw statlines completely ignore the fact that assaulting requires waiting around to be shot generally for 2 turns, only 1 if you're very lucky. Shooty units are useful starting from the very first turn, and are easier to keep alive when you can opt to camp them in cover rather than cross an empty stretch of table. Assault units should never reach their intended targets wholly intact, Ork Boyz least of all after basic Nid troops, though the latter cost even less and have much easier access to AoE stealth and/or shrouded from the venomthrope.
It's still 6 pts compared to 14 pts on a T4 body. I'll take double the wounds and not complain about the point differential and say they are overcosted.
Let me be clear, I think Ork Boyz suck. I also think Tactical Marines suck. They both die too easy and rarely impact the game through shooting and/or charging. But that is a reflection on the game of 7th edition. There is a huge power curve and troops are on the lowest end of the spectrum.
I was simply pointing out they aren't overcosted. They are point efficient. Adding FNP doesn't make them appropriately point costed, it makes them undercosted. It shifts regular Ork Boyz from tax to durable and worth playing. As a comparison, if you take away Scatter Lasers from Windriders, they become point efficient. They are no longer undercosted. With Scatter Lasers they perform well in every category. Without they are still expensive Marines that move faster than normal, have a low shooting range, and come with a price tag.
Boyz for 6-7 pts each is point appropriate. Giving them FNP shifts them from point appropriate to under costed - as it would give them a shift in power.
Ork boyz and tactical marines don't suck, troops should be average units. It's eldar bikes that make no sense and they shouldn't be troops but fast attacks.
The thing is that Space Marines (in a CAD at least) have another option instead of tacticals that can fulfill a similar role as tacticals, they're called scouts (Black Templars can take Crusader squads too). Ork boyz perform a role of melee anti-infantry/objective camping that nothing else in the codex does as well. In a CAD you can choose not to take tacticals, you can choose not to take boyz, because there are other troop choices. But SM's other troop choices are also fairly durable objective-camping with versatility added by special weapons. The other troop orks get are T2 LD5 armorless grots.
So yes, I'd take boyz even if I didn't have to, if only because they do their job better than nobs do.
Saythings wrote: You would take Tacticals (non-Gladius) or Ork Boyz if you didn't have to?
I think troops should be mandatory and also the worst units in any army, and I don't like lists with only super elite stuff, so yes, I like boyz or gretchin.
Special Rules:
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Chapter Tactics
• Combat Squads
Options for a much harder transport, tons of bubble effects, formations that increase their value further (orks have some, but they are very restrictive in what you can take, marine ones seem to have no tax's rolled into them), shenanigans out the backside for ignoring leadership, and the chapter tactics has an enormous impact... If there was a 'clan' that allowed me to have hit and run on all my boys, or even a free 6+ FNP or hell, some Waaagh-doctrines that allowed me to shooting waagh, Assault waaagh and the like I'd be ecstatic.
Boys are definitely overcosted unless you start admitting that other things in the game are hugely undercosted and adjusting those.
Not to mention, you can add the value of a coversave into a unit as if it's a given; if you're gonna do that then how many points is it worth? Because the marines have access to it as well.
If all Orks had 6+ FNP which could be improved with Dok's Tools to 4+ and all Choppas and Big Choppas had rending, then they wouldn't be overcosted. Still a highly variable army, because Orks have to be for some reason?
Small, fun, non-game breaking tweaks. Rampage or Rage with a Waaagh? Still not game breaking since assault is so difficult now.
Seems like I can't get a proper answer in YMDC, so I will repost here and hopefully some of you can help me out.
I've only got access to the older version of Waagh ghazz; and it seems as if you cant take any of the Kustom gubbins unless you take a detachment or formation from the book...
My question is this; can you take a CAD or allied detachment in waaagh ghazzgull or no? Am I required to take all of the stuff from one of the detatchments in order to unlock those relics?
Similarly, do 'oddboyz' from the reprint count as a formation, or is it just a component of the great waaagh band?
Why I ask is because I want to take a mega force field, but I'd rather not have to unlock it with a whole formation if I don't have too.
davou wrote: Seems like I can't get a proper answer in YMDC, so I will repost here and hopefully some of you can help me out.
I've only got access to the older version of Waagh ghazz; and it seems as if you cant take any of the Kustom gubbins unless you take a detachment or formation from the book...
My question is this; can you take a CAD or allied detachment in waaagh ghazzgull or no? Am I required to take all of the stuff from one of the detatchments in order to unlock those relics?
Similarly, do 'oddboyz' from the reprint count as a formation, or is it just a component of the great waaagh band?
Why I ask is because I want to take a mega force field, but I'd rather not have to unlock it with a whole formation if I don't have too.
AFAIK, there's no Waaagh Ghazghkull CAD or Allied fomation options available - you have to take one of the formations from the book. I haven't asked around about this, though, so I could be wrong.
It's not hard to take the Detachment, honestly, the requirements aren't that bad, and I don't mind the benefits. I take a (roughly) 500 pt minimal Waaagh Ghaz detachment in some of my lists, which nets me:
- A small unit of meganobs in a trukk (MANZ missile)
- 2 units of grots on foot
- Big mek with Mega force field
It's mostly for the mega force field, but hey, they all get a chance at deep striking too! Well, it might not be very competitive, I think it's fun at least... for what it's worth, I have won a close game with a timely unit of deep-striking runts!
I've finally tried a multiple Megaboss list in trukks, inspired by PipeAlley's list, in a 2v2 with Nids vs Iron Warriors and Necrons. I've fielded:
4x Megaboss w/ BP in a trukk w/ ram, with 9 boyz and a barebone nob
2x 5 lootas
1x kopta
Wow that was awesome. Megabosses can tank shooting and close combat attacks all day long. Barebone nobz were useful against overlords' challenges. Cybork body could have saved a few wounds, but aren't mandatory I think. Still, maybe I'll add them in a later match.
The only downside of this strat, I would say, is the unfluffyness of the "tanking all hits" shenanigan. It's like putting a DLS megaboss in front of a 30-boyz squad and watch it take ALL hits. I know that the rules allow it but it's a glitch that shouldn't be, IMO.
haha thats awesome! giving squads of boys megabosses fixes a huge problem I have with orks.....
Why is it that theres a race whose entire society is based around fighting in the fluff, and the second they get into a fight, they start to collapse in fear left and right? If they're gonna make orks piddly cowards in the game regardless of the fluff, you shouldn't have any qualms about having a tanky boss in the front either
Now if only we could place the explosion wounds on the boss too, all the trukk problems would be fixed
See, you got this BIG, MEAN, GREEN Warboss leading the march/charge of his horde, and so everyone's trying to shoot him before HE's the one that smashes their line apart. So they're concentrating fire on the biggest target.
And him, being a heavily armoured Warboss, basically just ignores all the piddly firepower being thrown his way. You see, it's just Not Enuff Dakka to take 'im down.
davou wrote: Now if only we could place the explosion wounds on the boss too, all the trukk problems would be fixed
You lose a few boyz to the explosion and ensuing mob rules but with Ld 9 you still have ~85.7% chances of being good to go (pass both tests). That's a lot better than with Ld 7 (~66.4%). I guess on average you lose 4-6 boyz. Yeah, that's still painful...
See, you got this BIG, MEAN, GREEN Warboss leading the march/charge of his horde, and so everyone's trying to shoot him before HE's the one that smashes their line apart. So they're concentrating fire on the biggest target.
And him, being a heavily armoured Warboss, basically just ignores all the piddly firepower being thrown his way. You see, it's just Not Enuff Dakka to take 'im down.
Hmm, I guess you're right!
Of course, as stated before, I still have to test this kind of list against a really mobile army (dark eldar for example).
Why is it that theres a race whose entire society is based around fighting in the fluff, and the second they get into a fight, they start to collapse in fear left and right? If they're gonna make orks piddly cowards in the game regardless of the fluff, you shouldn't have any qualms about having a tanky boss in the front either
Just because they love to fight, doesn't mean that they love a FAIR fight. If something is not going their way, they know enough to get out of there!
In AoS, I see the bravery stat as less that they are breaking and running... more that they aren't disciplined enough to not make mistakes. I see it as the mistakes that people make when they get desperate, going too far with your blade... leaving yourself open at the wrong time and getting punished for it. Orks are going to have a low Bravery, we know that.
The other side of things, we are going to continue to have randomness forced upon us. It is to counteract the simple dice statistics of rolling so many dice. Sure, grots might hit on a +5 and wound on a +6, but 80 attacks will more reliably do 4 wounds than 16 attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on a 3+. The randomness of the army needs to counteract that fact.
I've finally tried a multiple Megaboss list in trukks, inspired by PipeAlley's list, in a 2v2 with Nids vs Iron Warriors and Necrons. I've fielded:
4x Megaboss w/ BP in a trukk w/ ram, with 9 boyz and a barebone nob
2x 5 lootas
1x kopta
Wow that was awesome. Megabosses can tank shooting and close combat attacks all day long. Barebone nobz were useful against overlords' challenges. Cybork body could have saved a few wounds, but aren't mandatory I think. Still, maybe I'll add them in a later match.
The only downside of this strat, I would say, is the unfluffyness of the "tanking all hits" shenanigan. It's like putting a DLS megaboss in front of a 30-boyz squad and watch it take ALL hits. I know that the rules allow it but it's a glitch that shouldn't be, IMO.
Sounds awesome, great job! The freedom, power, and flexibility of these lists are intoxicating! I have no qualms on putting some hits on the boss but I'd rather have the boys die in general, especially when hit with a flamer while still inthe Trukks. The way I look at it is each unit of Boyz and Boss are one 14 wound creature. The boyz and Nobz attacks are just bonuses. As the boys get whittled down, the head of the creature jumps ship and attaches itself to a healthier body. Now you have a separate unit of Nob and a few Boyz(the discarded body) that can absorb overwatch, claim an objective, or Sweeping Advance!
My biggest worry is now the new Eldar Soulburtsing shenanigans! We need to be talking about that!
My biggest worry is now the new Eldar Soulburtsing shenanigans! We need to be talking about that!
There's no real need to talk about that, if you face a list with 2 reborn warhosts and its typical spam of min scatter bikes you may get 48 S6 shots in your turn. It's something that should never existed and I hope with the 8th edition this nonsense would disappear
i agree, theres not really a point in talking about it at all.
Eldar already has about 30% value above where they should in their unites (things that cost 100 points should cost 130) and orks already have about the same, but in the opposite direction (things that cost 130 should cost 100).
add to that that the things in the ynnari suddenly get an extra activation on each turn, it amounts to playing a game where someone just up and decided to bring twice as many points as you did to a game. I'd play a person who wanted to try it out once, but then not again unless I was paired with them at a tournament. Its like someone setup a chessboard where each odd pawn was replaced by a rook
davou wrote: Seems like I can't get a proper answer in YMDC, so I will repost here and hopefully some of you can help me out.
I've only got access to the older version of Waagh ghazz; and it seems as if you cant take any of the Kustom gubbins unless you take a detachment or formation from the book...
My question is this; can you take a CAD or allied detachment in waaagh ghazzgull or no? Am I required to take all of the stuff from one of the detatchments in order to unlock those relics?
Similarly, do 'oddboyz' from the reprint count as a formation, or is it just a component of the great waaagh band?
Why I ask is because I want to take a mega force field, but I'd rather not have to unlock it with a whole formation if I don't have too.
EDIT; Anyone else started fielding more boyz before toyz again? My luck has gotten better the more toyz I remove.
It depends on what lists you run. A lot of bikes (even without zhadsnark), mek gunz, tankbustas and meganobz are certainly better than a ton of boyz. But boyz spam is better than a dread mob for example.
EDIT; Anyone else started fielding more boyz before toyz again? My luck has gotten better the more toyz I remove.
It depends on what lists you run. A lot of bikes (even without zhadsnark), mek gunz, tankbustas and meganobz are certainly better than a ton of boyz. But boyz spam is better than a dread mob for example.
Sometimes trukkboyz have an upper hand over bikers. For example vs droppod alpha-strikes or vs ignore cover shooting or high ini elite mellee. So, it's not correct to say that bikers are always better.
A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.
My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.
Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.
My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.
I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.
My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.
Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.
The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rismonite wrote: A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.
My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.
Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.
My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.
I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.
My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.
Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.
Well, nothing new here, really. Naughts are bad cause expensive slow non-superheavy vehicles are bad overall. Play them as allied chaos knights and you'll see some improvement. Naughts need to cost around 120 pts to be worthwhile in current meta.
koooaei wrote: The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rismonite wrote: A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.
My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.
Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.
My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.
I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.
My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.
Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.
Well, nothing new here, really. Naughts are bad cause expensive slow non-superheavy vehicles are bad overall. Play them as allied chaos knights and you'll see some improvement. Naughts need to cost around 120 pts to be worthwhile in current meta.
Ahh I like this idea! GW screwed up badly not making them superheavies and the Storm Surge is a GMC?!? We'll see what the next 'dex brings.
We won't need to wait on a dex... I suspect that a Generals Handbook will be on the way with the release of 8th. That, and the overall rules changes will be favorable to our walkers. At least, my Dread Mob hopes so!
Anpu-adom wrote: We won't need to wait on a dex... I suspect that a Generals Handbook will be on the way with the release of 8th. That, and the overall rules changes will be favorable to our walkers. At least, my Dread Mob hopes so!
There is a strong possibility of a shake up for Orks, in a good way, of vehicle damage charts are removed. This of course means Orks will play against a lot more lists that have basic transports and dreadnoughts as well.
I also expect astartes Terminators to become a more common site with the removal of the AP system, and them possibly becoming multi wound....
As for the gorkanaut, against lots of anti armor drop troops I would start it in reserves. Better to have it not have a turn or two then get blown up and do nothing. It's guns aren't great but it can come in shooting due to decent rangebands and can hold or threaten an objective on your half of the table- much better than blowing up turn 1.
koooaei wrote: The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.
Hows about this; if I have a bike behind the voidsheild and inside of the KFF bubble, Does a player shooting at it have to roll against av12 for the shield, and then I get the save from the kff?
koooaei wrote: The voidshield doesn't. The voidshield generator (building) does.
Hows about this; if I have a bike behind the voidsheild and inside of the KFF bubble, Does a player shooting at it have to roll against av12 for the shield, and then I get the save from the kff?
Rismonite wrote: A list building tidbit I had to relearn again the other day. I run a lot of Ghazcurion style lists on foot because I like fearless boyz, and I find I usually don't get production out of the Council. Well I had to trim a list down to play at 1500 points the other day. Friendly as the game was, I decided to be lax about my list. I ran my Council straight from the book plain, no extras, except the Waaagh! Banner which is required. I decided to do the same with everything else, 60 Boyz, Warboss, some Nobz. I had enough points for a Gorkanaught. "Man, I never get to play him.".. So I casually plunk him down in this list, with 2x5 Stormboyz and two extra Nobz to round out the 1500.
My opponent is running some marine heavy list with a Skyhammer and the IF formation that gets bolters rerolling all misses, and is Imperial Fists with lots of bolters all around. He has a variety of Dev squads, two squads choppy jump marines, some choppy marines in a shooty Razorback, and two squads of shooty marines with a template each in a Rhino. One of the Dev squads is a drop melta squad in the Skyhammer formation, and will shoot full BS when they drop.
Well gak, I have to guard my dorkanaught to get some use out of him. So I stick the council and some grots in front of him, and stuff the boyz all around him and behind him to deny the melta's bonus range.
My opponent decides to drop turn two, I carefully walk my guys around my big stupid walker, but he shoots up just enough boyz on one side to get his Melta's to drop turn two, land one hit, reroll because tankhunters, pen, roll an explodes! result, and then I fail my cover save. Effectively shorting me of 250 points. This being after my Gorkanaught killed only two marines firing his guns twice. So, by mixing types of models on the table, I learned -again- that offering different targets just makes your list easier to shoot with a range of weapons. Taking 1W models? Make your whole army 1W models. Why? Well so the drop melta has nothing good to shoot. Want to field your Gorkanaught? Well you better field like six of them so that your opponent's small arms fire has nothing to shoot.
I tell ya what is worse, I didn't want to be boring and take 25 more stormboyz instead of the gorkanaught. But sure enough, first turn one of my squad's of stormboyz went 2+ feet across the table and locked a squad of Devs in combat for two turns, preventing them from firing missile launchers, and being invaluable at protecting my dorkanaught for two turns. If I didn't have to worry about the missile launchers or the melta, I could be worried solely about heavy bolters and shooty marines.
My opponent ignored the Council the entire game, shot everything else off the table by the top of 5, leaving me with one scoring unit in Eternal War:Crusade. So we called it a GG and I blamed me being a moron and fielding the dorkanaught in a boyz tide. If I take stormboyz and lock more bolters in CC turn 1 and 2, then the game is very different.
Now hopefully someone has advice on how to paint perspective on blacks and browns.
You are right there. The naughts aren't so bad when you take 5 and say a stompa for all the av13. I've even come close to taking some tournaments around here and its pretty competitive here.
1. Am I right in assuming that you can't benefit from Run&Charge waagh because of the MA warboss being unable to run.
2. Whats the plan for handling armour and walkers. Is it just the PK's on the warbosses?
1) With trukks' speed you typically don't need that single run+charge granted by the waaagh. If the vehicle survive that 1-6 '' run may be redundant, if the vehicle is wrecked before moving you'll need to cross the entire battlefield with 10 boyz plus a warboss, which means you won't probably see combat anyway, even without the megarmor
2) Several S10 pks with ws5 are a great anti-tank actually, way better than rokkits which would be 20ish at most and with only S8 bs2. An AV10-11 spam can be a problem but against some AV12-14 those warbosses are a super effective anti-tank.
I'm not really a fan of this kind of list as I prefer the bullyboyz or the real MSU style with cheaper units in trukks and a lot of firepower thanks to lootas, tankbustas, bikes and lobbas, but against several types of lists it can worked very well, especially if orks start first.
Nithaniel wrote: 1. Am I right in assuming that you can't benefit from Run&Charge waagh because of the MA warboss being unable to run.
2. Whats the plan for handling armour and walkers. Is it just the PK's on the warbosses?
To complement Blackie's reply:
1. Don't forget the MAWB also prevents you from overwatching and making sweeping advances. However, if you have something else in combat, say a lone kopta, or a second mob of MAWB-less boyz, they can try a sweeping advance. About the run moves, I've not tried it yet, but you could always separate the MAWB from the boyz in the movement phase, and have the boyz run and charge a distant weak target, when the MAWB contribution is not really needed. Very situational, but it's something to keep up your sleeve. Having a barebone nob with the boyz helps for that matter.
2. Like Blackie said. The walker kills a few boyz, then the MAWB kills the walker.
I love MSU lists, but I also love this kind of list. It's why I always complement my MAWB trukks with single koptas, single mek gunz and/or 5-man lootas mobs.
Nithaniel wrote: 1. Am I right in assuming that you can't benefit from Run&Charge waagh because of the MA warboss being unable to run.
2. Whats the plan for handling armour and walkers. Is it just the PK's on the warbosses?
To complement Blackie's reply:
1. Don't forget the MAWB also prevents you from overwatching and making sweeping advances. However, if you have something else in combat, say a lone kopta, or a second mob of MAWB-less boyz, they can try a sweeping advance. About the run moves, I've not tried it yet, but you could always separate the MAWB from the boyz in the movement phase, and have the boyz run and charge a distant weak target, when the MAWB contribution is not really needed. Very situational, but it's something to keep up your sleeve. Having a barebone nob with the boyz helps for that matter.
2. Like Blackie said. The walker kills a few boyz, then the MAWB kills the walker.
I love MSU lists, but I also love this kind of list. It's why I always complement my MAWB trukks with single koptas, single mek gunz and/or 5-man lootas mobs.
Also you're going to lose some Trukks on the way. So what? The Trukks that survive can go back and get the other units. If you lose a couple Boyz in one unit, feel free to slap a second MAWB in there. The more Boyz they kill, the stronger and more concentrated your units become. Works great with the DLS MAWB's unit. The biggest issue with this list is still Ld. That's why the Boss' Ld 9 is so helpful.
Finally with multiple IC's it's easy to manipulate which Boss's take the wounds. A one wound Boss fights as well a unhurt one.
Half your army can take on their death star and 1-2 units can wipe most back field units. Deffkoptas provide multiple jinking cover, absorb overwatch, sweeping advance, turboboost for objectives. Also this list is fast and fun!!
Hey guys, been a long time since ive been in this thread. Good to see the Ork love is still strong
A few questions really since I stopped playing about a year and a half ago;
Have the Orks had anything new? (post all the Ork releases - New dex, Ghazz supp, the 2-3 books with formations etc..)
Are we still being left behind in the power creep? I saw a post a page back about some new eldar ?
Is there any rumours about 8th ed saving our greenskin asses? AKA Walkers becoming the and me running my dred mobs!
AND WHATS THE LATEST ORK ??? Last games I was running stuff like MAWB on lootas, artillery... for all the SnP shenanigans, have you guys found anything else for the hilarity factor?
Da Boyz 'av 'ad no fightin' for too long an' da boyz ar gettin' restless!
Solar Shock wrote: Hey guys, been a long time since ive been in this thread. Good to see the Ork love is still strong
A few questions really since I stopped playing about a year and a half ago;
Have the Orks had anything new? (post all the Ork releases - New dex, Ghazz supp, the 2-3 books with formations etc..)
Are we still being left behind in the power creep? I saw a post a page back about some new eldar ?
Is there any rumours about 8th ed saving our greenskin asses? AKA Walkers becoming the and me running my dred mobs!
AND WHATS THE LATEST ORK ??? Last games I was running stuff like MAWB on lootas, artillery... for all the SnP shenanigans, have you guys found anything else for the hilarity factor?
Da Boyz 'av 'ad no fightin' for too long an' da boyz ar gettin' restless!
Nothing new for da boyz for a year and a half, at least nothing good.
Hey! We're featured in Shadow Wars Armageddon. The new necromundula-like killteam with 2-d (ish) edition rules. And 8-th is coming promising some interesting changes like those who charge always strike first, save modifiers are going to be back and stuff like that. So, it's impossible to say how things will be.
great replies thanks.
I'm planning on testing out a list like this with triple CAD and 9 koptas with 3 squads of min lootas and a mix of KMK, kannon and lobba support. most excited i've been about my orks in a long while.
I typically play garage hammer against a fluffy eldar lists (that still destroy my orks) and fluffy CSM lists. I play in a non FW meta so this is great!
Long and the short of it... 40 kill points in a Battle Forged Ork Army. 2 Waagh! Bands (10 kill points each), 10 Rokkit Buggies, 3 Traktor Kannons, and 7 other artillery. You still have better than 150 points for upgrades after adding Mega Armor to the Nobs and Warboss.
Definitely stoked about the news for 8th ed. Having a relative playing field amongst all the factions with all the rules being released around the same time will hopefully mean all factions are viable rather than the disparate tiers we have now. (though there'll definitely be cheese in some form). Make Ork characters great again! (and invulns. please Gork give us our invulns back)
Hopefully they will balance out the factions in the new edition. Ican't wait to see how they adjust the units to make them viable (I'm looking at you Flash Gitz and Gorkanauts!)
I really want an excuse to buy/use a Gorkanaut/Morkanaut. I really like the model and I could finally work towards a dread mob that wouldn't just explode turn 1.
r_squared wrote:I'm just looking forward to fielding some fun walker based lists.
thenewgozoku wrote:Gorkanauts please! Hopefully they will be good because they have them in Dawn of war 3
biggie_reg wrote:I really want an excuse to buy/use a Gorkanaut/Morkanaut. I really like the model and I could finally work towards a dread mob that wouldn't just explode turn 1.
All of the above... my 1500 points of Dread Mob definitely needs to see the table.
There are a lot of leaders in AoS that make various units Battleline... I'm hoping that a Big Mek will make Killa Kans or Def Dreads the equivalent of Battleline.
Jambles wrote: Very excited to see what the new rules will be in 8th. It's always a party when Orks get an update!
I think orks will change most from a new edition. Not just becuase thier role as an assault horde army can only improve but becuase there is a huge question mark on what rules they add or take away for forgeworld. Models like zhardsnark has been a huge crutch for many ork players and to a lesser extent buzzgrob stompa and the ever resilient killbursta tank.
Its also fairly impossible to suggest that orks are not overcosted for what they get at this point.
Unless leadership and armor suddenly play a much less central role in the game than they do now, orks suffer from not having what a lot of other armies get and having to deal with the things that others get to ignore.
Don't forget we get actual 40k rules now for Squigoths and (if you can afford him) the Gargantuan Squiggoth! Looking forward to seeing what those rules will be like. Mabye an alternative to trukks & BWs.
JimOnMars wrote: Don't forget we get actual 40k rules now for Squigoths and (if you can afford him) the Gargantuan Squiggoth! Looking forward to seeing what those rules will be like. Mabye an alternative to trukks & BWs.
Forgeworld are parring down thier models for 40k right now so who knows what makes the cut or what doesn't make the cut and if they do rules for oop models.
JimOnMars wrote: Don't forget we get actual 40k rules now for Squigoths and (if you can afford him) the Gargantuan Squiggoth! Looking forward to seeing what those rules will be like. Mabye an alternative to trukks & BWs.
Forgeworld are parring down thier models for 40k right now so who knows what makes the cut or what doesn't make the cut and if they do rules for oop models.
davou wrote: OMG guys, its happeneing!!! We're gonna need a new thread!
I really like what Waaagh 18 did to start this thread. He really did a good job. There's valuable info there, even though it's not been updated for a long time.
Waaagh 18 wrote: I'll go first. Remember, these are my opinions and aren't set in stone by any means:
Green = Da Best
Blue = Very Good
Yellow = Average
Red = Below Average (don't take in a competitve list)
We need this for the new edition to start the discussions!
Don't know if SWA can be an identifier to what could happen but from what we've had there so far, mellee orks are kinda not viable. With the movement characteristic returning, orks got a 4 movement whereas ranged weapons remained the same. Sure, there's less shots going on overall but it's still extremely hard to get to the enemy that's actively avoiding cc if you don't spam special weapons yourself - and they are so expensive you can't really hoard up anymore. Well, another thing is that every hit causes pinning and orks can't reliably get up with our lowly ini 2 or 1 with 'eavy armor. So, it might be different for the larger games.
Anywayz, the return of movement characteristics can be a bad thing for us orks if we want to go choppy. And a good thing if we want to go shooty. Especially with all the rend modifiers going on. Pretty sure lootas will end up with sustained (like they currently are) and a -3 rend for deffguns. And bigshootas are gona get -2 which will be a gamechanger for shoota mobs.
Nothing is for certain at this moment, however. Interesting, will they return termies back to 3+ on 2d6? Doubt it. 1+ armor is more likely there.
koooaei wrote: Don't know if SWA can be an identifier to what could happen but from what we've had there so far, mellee orks are kinda not viable. With the movement characteristic returning, orks got a 4 movement whereas ranged weapons remained the same. Sure, there's less shots going on overall but it's still extremely hard to get to the enemy that's actively avoiding cc if you don't spam special weapons yourself - and they are so expensive you can't really hoard up anymore. Well, another thing is that every hit causes pinning and orks can't reliably get up with our lowly ini 2 or 1 with 'eavy armor. So, it might be different for the larger games.
Anywayz, the return of movement characteristics can be a bad thing for us orks if we want to go choppy. And a good thing if we want to go shooty. Especially with all the rend modifiers going on. Pretty sure lootas will end up with sustained (like they currently are) and a -3 rend for deffguns. And bigshootas are gona get -2 which will be a gamechanger for shoota mobs.
Nothing is for certain at this moment, however. Interesting, will they return termies back to 3+ on 2d6? Doubt it. 1+ armor is more likely there.
In my experience, Orks kick butt in melee in SW:A! Just with regular Boys: WS 4 is a big bonus, slugga/choppa means 3 dice to roll, and getting +2 on the charge for being an Ork is also a big advantage. The key is movement, you have to force them into a corner by lurking (moving + hiding) into range to threaten them with charges. The shoota boys and big shoota are there to funnel them towards the melee mob.
Move characteristic in 40k will make things different, for sure. More incentive to mount up for me, I play a heavily mechanised army already, so I can't see it really changing my playstyle.
TBH I'm in no way looking forward to 8th Edition if it's going to be more like AoS. I bought my first non-Ork models last December (Nurgle Demons) because I could use them in both formats. If 40K becomes more like AoS, what's the point?
I understand a company's desire to make an easier game like AoS but now that they have it, why dumb down 40K? I read the FAQ that promises they won't but only have reservations at this point. That being said, I'll probably keep my Ork models or use as AoS Greenskins.
Let's blow out the rest of 7th and go down swinging, cross our fingers, and keep on dreaming.
PipeAlley wrote: TBH I'm in no way looking forward to 8th Edition if it's going to be more like AoS. I bought my first non-Ork models last December (Nurgle Demons) because I could use them in both formats. If 40K becomes more like AoS, what's the point?
I understand a company's desire to make an easier game like AoS but now that they have it, why dumb down 40K? I read the FAQ that promises they won't but only have reservations at this point. That being said, I'll probably keep my Ork models or use as AoS Greenskins.
Let's blow out the rest of 7th and go down swinging, cross our fingers, and keep on dreaming.
Personally, I don't think it's going to change to the extent you may be fearing. I'm not saying it's going to be a perfect release; there will always be problems. But in this instance, I have at least some confidence when they say they won't go to the same extent they went to with AoS. They seem quite adamant on that point.
koooaei wrote: Don't know if SWA can be an identifier to what could happen but from what we've had there so far, mellee orks are kinda not viable. With the movement characteristic returning, orks got a 4 movement whereas ranged weapons remained the same. Sure, there's less shots going on overall but it's still extremely hard to get to the enemy that's actively avoiding cc if you don't spam special weapons yourself - and they are so expensive you can't really hoard up anymore. Well, another thing is that every hit causes pinning and orks can't reliably get up with our lowly ini 2 or 1 with 'eavy armor. So, it might be different for the larger games.
Anywayz, the return of movement characteristics can be a bad thing for us orks if we want to go choppy. And a good thing if we want to go shooty. Especially with all the rend modifiers going on. Pretty sure lootas will end up with sustained (like they currently are) and a -3 rend for deffguns. And bigshootas are gona get -2 which will be a gamechanger for shoota mobs.
Nothing is for certain at this moment, however. Interesting, will they return termies back to 3+ on 2d6? Doubt it. 1+ armor is more likely there.
In my experience, Orks kick butt in melee in SW:A! Just with regular Boys: WS 4 is a big bonus, slugga/choppa means 3 dice to roll, and getting +2 on the charge for being an Ork is also a big advantage. The key is movement, you have to force them into a corner by lurking (moving + hiding) into range to threaten them with charges. The shoota boys and big shoota are there to funnel them towards the melee mob.
Move characteristic in 40k will make things different, for sure. More incentive to mount up for me, I play a heavily mechanised army already, so I can't see it really changing my playstyle.
But what's exactly prohibiting them from going on oerwatch and killing you while you move?
koooaei wrote: Don't know if SWA can be an identifier to what could happen but from what we've had there so far, mellee orks are kinda not viable. With the movement characteristic returning, orks got a 4 movement whereas ranged weapons remained the same. Sure, there's less shots going on overall but it's still extremely hard to get to the enemy that's actively avoiding cc if you don't spam special weapons yourself - and they are so expensive you can't really hoard up anymore. Well, another thing is that every hit causes pinning and orks can't reliably get up with our lowly ini 2 or 1 with 'eavy armor. So, it might be different for the larger games.
Anywayz, the return of movement characteristics can be a bad thing for us orks if we want to go choppy. And a good thing if we want to go shooty. Especially with all the rend modifiers going on. Pretty sure lootas will end up with sustained (like they currently are) and a -3 rend for deffguns. And bigshootas are gona get -2 which will be a gamechanger for shoota mobs.
Nothing is for certain at this moment, however. Interesting, will they return termies back to 3+ on 2d6? Doubt it. 1+ armor is more likely there.
In my experience, Orks kick butt in melee in SW:A! Just with regular Boys: WS 4 is a big bonus, slugga/choppa means 3 dice to roll, and getting +2 on the charge for being an Ork is also a big advantage. The key is movement, you have to force them into a corner by lurking (moving + hiding) into range to threaten them with charges. The shoota boys and big shoota are there to funnel them towards the melee mob.
Move characteristic in 40k will make things different, for sure. More incentive to mount up for me, I play a heavily mechanised army already, so I can't see it really changing my playstyle.
But what's exactly prohibiting them from going on oerwatch and killing you while you move?
With a limited 90 degree Overwatch arc, and generally dense cover, I would abuse the flanks - you'll always outnumber, so you can spread out and the enemy won't be able to cover every angle of attack. That's assuming you're going for the Bottle, of course - otherwise you're playing for objectives anyways...
No, i mean cover's not taking 100% of board space - it's close to 50% in fact and not everything blocks los. So, you hide and than have to move to another piece. Even if you just move 4 and try to hide again, you're visible while you move and they can shoot you. Taking into consideration a pretty large amount of cheap shooting enchanters like lazer dots or ignore cover, they'll be able to hit you pretty reliably. Most terrain, at least here, is ruins with windows, so they'll often see this 1% of your model - enough to make a shot - albeit with a sizable to-hit penalty but than they're usually bs 4 or higher with skills + have means of either lowering your cover or further improving their to-hit chances. So, they're still hitting on ~5+. And than there is open ground that you havve to cross to get anywhere. And it's >4' usually.
koooaei wrote: No, i mean cover's not taking 100% of board space - it's close to 50% in fact and not everything blocks los. So, you hide and than have to move to another piece. Even if you jus move 4 and try to hide again, you're visible while you move and they can shoot you. Taking into consideration a pretty large amount of cheap shooting enchanters like lazer dots or ignore cover, they'll be able to hit you pretty reliably.
Well, I guess pack up the Orks then? Somehow, I've made it into melee in Shadow War, I assure you that you can as well. Considering most Ork shooting in this game is still very innacurate even within 12", you're going to have to get close regardless playing greenskins.
Overwatch just doesn't cover everywhere, I'm not sure how your opponents are able to do this - but in that theoretical situation, I guess I'd throw a yoof at them to take the shot. Same as Orks in 40k, take a few hits getting in but there's always more boys.
Against smaller unit count armies like Necrons, I haven't even had to lurk, just run at them every turn and count on cover + run bonus. Once you get a couple of guys locked in melee they're boned.
We have bigshootas. Deadly weapons and not heavy. That's what allowed me to get anywhere. And yep, yoffs took damage. Though i was trying to eat fire with boyz at first cause i kitted them for mellee and they were running a bit ahead armed with 4+ armor but than i quickly found out that they ain't getting anywhere with ini1 to escape pinning. So, my plan is to arm boyz with shootas and than get a choppa just in case - but that's later on in the campaing when i get points, yoffs get cheaapo stuff like sluggas or choppas or even an extra knife or nothing at all - they'll later also get shootas. This way, i can field 2 bigshootaboyz with lazer dots, nob with a shoota, choppa and a lazer dot and 6 extra bodies to get up to 9 from the get go. Should help vs bottle tests.
davou wrote: just confirmed, charging models get ALL of their attacks first.....
Were back
YES!
So, to make orks competitive, get some of the models known as "boyz" and give them the wargear called "choppas." Then put them in the MC-like vehicles known as "Trukks"...
The command points can be used to interrupt charges, but only once. If they use all of their points to blunt a waaaagh, we would still have ours left over to counterattack.
JimOnMars wrote: The command points can be used to interrupt charges, but only once. If they use all of their points to blunt a waaaagh, we would still have ours left over to counterattack.
can you imagine spending command points to interrupt a player charging your kannons to counter charge them with warbikes?!
JimOnMars wrote: The command points can be used to interrupt charges, but only once. If they use all of their points to blunt a waaaagh, we would still have ours left over to counterattack.
can you imagine spending command points to interrupt a player charging your kannons to counter charge them with warbikes?!
thenewgozoku wrote: We got rolled up with all the xenos factions in one book.
Will these be placeholder books, I wonder? A physical copy of the army lists available to the factions contained therein, there to tide us over until a dedicated faction book is released?
Am I right in remembering that Age of Sigmar started with everyone having an army list available (albeit, not in a book), and then after they released specific books for particular factions over time? The "Battletomes" I think...
davou wrote: I for one dont mind having rules for nids, tau, crons and eldar as a bonus for buying the orks
Somewhere in the faq video they mentioned that one of the books was "a couple of xenos", so I assume the various Eldars are in their own book. Or maybe it's just Orks and Nids in one book, as "Destruction." Either way we get some fun rules to pursue while building our waaaaghs.
they are all either unarmored, weak or massively over priced with unreliable weapons.
?
