28799
Post by: legion4500
Hoo boy, kids! I am risking life and limb to get this info to you. today i bagged a Finecast Librarian in terminator armor!!!!!!!! BOO YAHH to me.
1) Don't ask where I got it, I cant say.
I can't say were this copy came from. I can say, that I don't work for GW and my source is here in the US and is not a member of GW ether. Unfortunatly returning it for another is not feasable. I am not even suppose to have it this early. The other copies were just as bad upon closer inspection. My source is now very nervous about GW and the finecast line.
2) I am working on it as we speak - so update will be in this post as i make more progress
Now lets begin . . . .
The Model is priced at $18.95. Only a dollar more then the metal version after tax here in the US.
Seen here is the front of the blister package (which jumps out at you on the shelf):
The back of the package is clear:
The blister has to be cut open. Its nice though to have a full color photo on the front for reference. Blister is extremely thin compared to the old blisters.
Here are the contents (my gallery has zoomable pics):
Now for my review:
The material is wierd feeling, it does not feel or smell like resin - its more on the plastic end. it is EXTREMELY SOFT - cuts with a new hobby knife easier then a hot knife thru butter. There are some heavy sprue gates but due to the softness of the material its easy to remove and clean up. Sanding is semi easy - i recommend fine grit or you will cut right thru the figures details in no time. The metal burs and stuff that plague the metal figures don't exist here. Sanding leaves less mess then a plastic figure. Almost no dust. DO NOT USE METAL FILES OR YOU WILL BE SORRY -THEY WILL DO MORE DAMAGE THEN GOOD. This is nothing like forgeworld resin or citadel plastic. I have a feeling that it will make altering figures vastly easier!
There are a few small mold lines along the guns and staff and a few micro size air bubbles (one at the very tip of his nose but is so small i can barely make it out - I never knew my metal figure had a smashed boxer's nose till I looked at the two side by side!), but the figure is clean except for his feet. nothing a little TLC can't fix. Detail is sharper then the original. I released that there were tiny ropes and stuff binding some skulls to the staff and armor. Holy Crap! The new material loves superglue. Bonding time is fast.
Good news: 
Lack of weight makes pinning unneeded. The whole figure with base weighs about the same a a single plastic space marine. Also that MIGHT ensure that the kit survives a floor drop. Notice I said might.
The material has some flex to it. It can be bent (this is interesting - should prevent the broken sword, tips etc). It will return to its orginal shape after you let go.
The material does not have to be primed. This is shocking. A quick wash with warm, soapy water and BAM. Paint sticks. Period. Primer can be used, but go easy or you will lose alot of detail. Strongly recommend sealing figures whether or not you prime them.
Bad news: 
Remember when i said the material is extremely soft. It also has some flex to it too. The librarians staff is impossible to straighten. I have tried heating it, then boiling it, etc. the staff is thin and has a slight bend to it. The material seems to have a limited memory to it and returns to its former shape. Will have to try other methods to fix that. Perhaps I need to heat it and chill it?
NEWSFLASH:
I heated the staff with my girlfriend's blowdryer. It only took ten seconds for the staff to go from flexable to cooked spagetti soft. The staff went limp as soon as i picked off the desk to move to a plate. This requires extreme care. The resin stuff got mushy real quick. Weird. placed in freezer for 5 minutes. Staff is now straight. Foreworld resin will fight like a bastard to get soft, and even then it is brittle when bent.
CRAPOLA!!!!!
Missed this during the reg review which someone pointed out to me (good eye!): the storm bolter is miscast and missing the whole top half (i used the hand option). GRRRRRRRRR.
Not including the mold line on the figure's staff there is a bubble hole in the top of the staff near the right where the pipe work is:
Overall:
The weight savings and lack of primer is nice, time and experiance will tell if this was a smart move by Games Workshop. Do i think a price jump is needed? NOPE. Do I like the finecast more then metal. Absolutely!!!
if they can work out the casting issues then this will be awesome
Sorry if this seems a little brief for some people, I love GW space marines (i build to display). I have had issues with metal models, plastic models (ever buy a warped land raider?? i have) etc.
I just posted a review of this figure after all the outrage over price increases and resin remakes. I was pretty stoked to get this kit and maybe a little overeager to share with you guys. I am working on it as we speak and when its done will show you the final product compared to my metal librarian (which was no picnic). Does this kit have issues? of course it does. Time will tell if GW gets it together.
Build Review:
05/27/11
So far I am liking this figure despite the flaws and the messed up gun.
The material loves superglue. A little dab and BAM - part is NOT coming off. Like I said before, paint sticks directly to it. It requires a good washing (had to go back and redo part of the robes - didn't get all the cracks).
Secondly - greenstuff loves the new stuff too. I rebuilt the power cable on top of the staff. The pinholes are gonna need something else though. There used to be a product my Mr Hobby for filling in pinholes in resin (used it when building gundams). I wonder if they still make it
In regards to heat and flexablity: its been mid 80's here and humid. NO change in the model from sitting in my hobby room (which does not have windows and its like a sauna on some days).
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Post by: Flachzange
Hm. Interesting! Thanks for the review. Im looking to seeing some of these in person.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I understand that these are most likely the exact same molds they used for the metals, but the tabs and posts for 40mm+ bases aren't necessary anymore and I'd like to see them go.
Also, that whole Bad News part makes me feel very "eh" about this.
22761
Post by: Kurgash
Hmm, in this example, one dollar more doesn't seem too bad really but it's still the concept of them raising the price regardless that irks me the most.
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Post by: winterman
Also, that whole Bad News part makes me feel very "eh" about this.
Yeah not be able to reshape fiddly bits like that staff could be a deal breaker on a lot of models.
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
would you happen to have one of the old models to compare it to? I'm very curious to see the improvement in the detail.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Looking at zooms in pictures, I can see some really bad cast there... sorry 
33172
Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
Err, why is a good chunk of the storm bolter missing?
24784
Post by: Mr Proudhoof
Is this a miscast? There are bits missing from the banner pole?
33172
Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
Mr Proudhoof wrote:Is this a miscast? There are bits missing from the banner pole?
Also is part of the winged skull's wings if you zoom in.
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Post by: pretre
Can we get an 'after' picture? i.e. Assembled at the least.
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Post by: Grinshanks
Any chance of a comparison with the original metal model?
I want to see "all the extra detail" the resin version has compared to the metal.
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
I have to agree with Navarro... zooming in there are a lot of issues with that cast. The staff and arm are especially bad and would take a lot of clean up to make look right.
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Post by: penek
and now... imagine all that Incubi and Wracks, thin and not so big, models with HUGE thin weapons...
24784
Post by: Mr Proudhoof
ChiliPowderKeg wrote:Mr Proudhoof wrote:Is this a miscast? There are bits missing from the banner pole?
Also is part of the winged skull's wings if you zoom in.
Yes, I just noticed that too. Hmmm. Will have to get my hands on one myself. That means venturing into a GW retail store this weekend...
26
Post by: carmachu
Soft material? yeah thats a deal breaker
23976
Post by: Inanimate
I would return that figure if I payed for it. there are several noticeable miscasts. The Storm Bolter for one, and also one wing on the winged skull (top of the banner), a chunk of the butt-plate... bubbles everywhere. I'm hoping this is just them learning to cast things properly or even just a failed cast out of a hundred successful ones.
I do want to like this, because I want lighter and softer models, but I'm not going to buy a Hive Tyrant with molten teeth.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I'm also with Navarro, that's a horrendous cast all told. The right foot, the hole in the eagle's wing, the contact points on the open hand, the storm bolter, etc.
If this is the average for Finecast, I am moving away from "eh" to severely disappointed.
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Post by: Slinky
The miscast bits are pretty bad... I wonder if this is typical, or a freak "bad apple".
If it's typical, there are going to be a lot of returns.
24784
Post by: Mr Proudhoof
Yes, something has gone wrong with this miniature. The back image of the main body shows up the worst of it.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Slinky wrote:The miscast bits are pretty bad... I wonder if this is typical, or a freak "bad apple".
Not sure that it's a freak bad apple:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/371720.page#2856689
May be a problem with being the first run and not being used to making them this way yet, though.
21056
Post by: jprp
I bought a large (9in), winged vampire in "resin" last year (pre-painted ltd edition ornament, cant remember name of manufacturer) and was amazed at the lightness so much that i opened the box in the shop to make sure it wasnt empty. I think it is probably made of the same stuff as i was told it was a "new" type of resin at the time.
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Post by: legion4500
FRAK!!!!!!!!!!! I went back, this is the best copy of the bunch. I will post pics when he is finished. Check back with me in a couple of days in this thread
459
Post by: Hellfury
In all the years I have been using Citadel Miniatures, I have never seen miscasts so bad after checking out the closeups in the gallery. In fact, I have seen some bad FW casts and never this bad. Such an amateur attempt by a company doing model making for decades is inexcusable.
Another item I don't think was mentioned is the storm bolter shells were miscast as well.
Frankly, that thing is no less than a hot mess.
No thanks.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I wonder if there's a reason we never got shown Draigo's shield arm in the other Finecast thread...
40741
Post by: Worglock
That's horribly unfortunate. I'll have to get the scoop from my local store next week after the launch.
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
That's some bad cast Harry.
459
Post by: Hellfury
legion4500 wrote:FRAK!!!!!!!!!!! I went back, this is the best copy of the bunch. I will post pics when he is finished. Check back with me in a couple of days in this thread
You've got to be kidding me. 
This is bar none, with absolutely no exaggeration or hyperbole, the worst cast miniature have ever seen in my life.
There is not a single separate bit on this miniature that does not lack some issue with air bubbles.
If this is what GW expect their consumers to swallow, I have something else in mind for them to swallow instead. There is no way in hell this will pass muster.
And this was the best of the bunch? I really honestly do fear for the future of GW now. People may miss the crap upon cursory inspection, but once brush touches the model it will become painfully apparent how horribly cast this is.
And the worst part is that this resin miniature is pure waste. It cannot be used to be recast again as this is not the nature of resin, but with metal the mistakes could be recycled.
A complete waste of resources.
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Post by: infinite_array
Hellfury wrote:legion4500 wrote:FRAK!!!!!!!!!!! I went back, this is the best copy of the bunch. I will post pics when he is finished. Check back with me in a couple of days in this thread
You've got to be kidding me.
This is bar none, with absolutely no exaggeration or hyperbole, the worst cast miniature have ever seen in my life.
There is not a single separate bit on this miniature that does not lack some issue with air bubbles.
If this is what GW expect their consumers to swallow, I have something else in mind for them to swallow instead. There is no way in hell this will pass muster.
And this was the best of the bunch? I really honestly do fear for the future of GW now. People may miss the crap upon cursory inspection, but once brush touches the model it will become painfully apparent how horribly cast this is.
And the worst part is that this resin miniature is pure waste. It cannot be used to be recast again as this is not the nature of resin, but with metal the mistakes could be recycled.
A complete waste of resources.
And so the rage-machine is stoked back to life!
I'm just glad they haven't gotten around to Vulkan yet. Still need him for my Salamanders.
Oh man. Imagine this this the Wracks...the grotesques... every single 'Finecost' minaiture!
40741
Post by: Worglock
Hellfury wrote:legion4500 wrote:FRAK!!!!!!!!!!! I went back, this is the best copy of the bunch. I will post pics when he is finished. Check back with me in a couple of days in this thread
You've got to be kidding me.
This is bar none, with absolutely no exaggeration or hyperbole, the worst cast miniature have ever seen in my life.
I've seen worse. At my local GW store a Sauron the Necromancer was returned because it's body looked like High Marshall Helbrecht.
459
Post by: Hellfury
infinite_array wrote:And so the rage-machine is stoked back to life!
Indeed. But even the fanboys shall be lamenting since you cannot argue with pictorial evidence on how utterly cruddy these are.
I derive no joy from seeing this mess. It's a friggin' crying shame is what this is. Such nice sculpts treated so badly.
How can you not worry about GW's future after seeing this?
And to those who shall inevitably defend this gak on a stick as acceptable. Have fun paying extra money just so you can test out your GS skillz on filling holes and missing parts for hours on end.
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Post by: Baiyuan
Having purchased that model under normal circumstances you would just give it back and get one with more than a half stormbolter. So give em back, let GW sort them out.
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Post by: Hellfury
Worglock wrote:I've seen worse. At my local GW store a Sauron the Necromancer was returned because it's body looked like High Marshall Helbrecht.
Just out of curiosity. Was it the new resin or the old metal model?
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Post by: Korraz
This is exactly the same crap you see with FW all the time.
Not like I didn't see that coming.
Quality control seems to be like advertisement to GW.
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Post by: infinite_array
Baiyuan wrote:Having purchased that model under normal circumstances you would just give it back and get one with more than a half stormbolter. So give em back, let GW sort them out.
Until GW realizes they're getting an 'abnormally' large amount of returns, and since this so-called 'resin' can't be melted down like metal, they institute a 'no returns' policy on them.
Korraz wrote:This is exactly the same crap you see with FW all the time.
Not like I didn't see that coming.
Not exactly FG. With that, at least you can get the bends out of the models by heating the material.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
legion4500 wrote:The librarians staff is impossible to straighten. ... Not a good sign.
... the storm bolter is miscast and missing the whole top half (i used the hand option). GRRRRRRRRR.
... Not including the mold line on the figure's staff there is a bubble hole in the top of the staff near the right where the pipe work is:
But didn't GW say that Finecost were...
Games Workshop wrote:the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen
I mean, if they're " the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen", then surely they should be flawless? Right?
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Post by: Korraz
infinite_array wrote:Baiyuan wrote:Having purchased that model under normal circumstances you would just give it back and get one with more than a half stormbolter. So give em back, let GW sort them out.
Until GW realizes they're getting an 'abnormally' large amount of returns, and since this so-called 'resin' can't be melted down like metal, they institute a 'no returns' policy on them.
They would hit themselves pretty fast and pretty hard with laws if they tried to do that.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Platuan4th wrote:I understand that these are most likely the exact same molds they used for the metals, but the tabs and posts for 40mm+ bases aren't necessary anymore and I'd like to see them go.
Also, that whole Bad News part makes me feel very "eh" about this.
Unless GW radically changed thier casting procedure in the past ten years, these are not the same molds. The metal-casting molds were spun disks of tire rubber, and there was no sprue. These molds looke entirely redone.
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Post by: Claimh_Solais
Really hope this is a bad ex you got
if this is the true face of finecast then its the bigest disapointment in GW history
I was very exited about the fincast but this makes me sad as hel*
20085
Post by: NoseGoblin
Valhallan42nd wrote:Platuan4th wrote:I understand that these are most likely the exact same molds they used for the metals, but the tabs and posts for 40mm+ bases aren't necessary anymore and I'd like to see them go.
Also, that whole Bad News part makes me feel very "eh" about this.
Unless GW radically changed their casting procedure in the past ten years, these are not the same molds. The metal-casting molds were spun disks of tire rubber, and there was no sprue. These molds look entirely redone.
Not the same mold... but the same figure used in the metal minis, sprued up to work with a resin injection mold. I cant believe they sent this out as is.... with all the bad press they do not need to be sending out miscasts for a first impression. I'm sure, in time they will work out the vent and sprue location to deal with the mold fill issues... Its very common that you need to go back and adjust a mold several times before its trouble free, and GW is by no means a master of resin casting (yet).
459
Post by: Hellfury
The main issue I am seeing here is a pretty basic flaw and makes it look amateurish.
That flaw being a complete lack of vacuum facilities to work out the air bubbles.
I am not sure if they expect simply dumping resin in a mold will do the trick, but assuming they know what they are doing enough to do it right and are actually using a vacuum, then there is a severe disconnect in how the vacuum procedure is working.
Because a few minor bubbles is acceptable and even expected. But not anywhere near to this degree.
33495
Post by: infinite_array
Someone over on BoLS posted a pictures of SM servitors. Bleh.
1
40741
Post by: Worglock
Hellfury wrote:Worglock wrote:I've seen worse. At my local GW store a Sauron the Necromancer was returned because it's body looked like High Marshall Helbrecht.
Just out of curiosity. Was it the new resin or the old metal model?
metal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Korraz wrote:infinite_array wrote:Baiyuan wrote:Having purchased that model under normal circumstances you would just give it back and get one with more than a half stormbolter. So give em back, let GW sort them out.
Until GW realizes they're getting an 'abnormally' large amount of returns, and since this so-called 'resin' can't be melted down like metal, they institute a 'no returns' policy on them.
They would hit themselves pretty fast and pretty hard with laws if they tried to do that.
Plus there's the whole thing of the package being clear and that you can see the model inside.
"So, this one's bad, this one's bad, and this one's bad. Got any good ones?"
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
From the pics shown, I don't think the mold lines are any worse that those you'd commonly see on the metal models. It's just that a) it stands out more starkly in resin, b) these are supposed to be higher quality than the metals, and c) we're paying more for the supposed higher quality.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Come on guys, this has to be a joke.
Surely people are picking out the worst examples they can find of Finecast items. There's no way GW would release such gakky bad castings and call them the best miniature models ever made.
These must surely be a few duds which people have got hold of and didn't return.
I mean, seriously!
31013
Post by: SpitfireArsonist
Kilkrazy wrote:Come on guys, this has to be a joke.
Surely people are picking out the worst examples they can find of Finecast items. There's no way GW would release such gakky bad castings and call them the best miniature models ever made.
These must surely be a few duds which people have got hold of and didn't return.
I mean, seriously!
I think you have far too much faith in GW. 
26192
Post by: Claimh_Solais
Kilkrazy wrote:Come on guys, this has to be a joke.
Surely people are picking out the worst examples they can find of Finecast items. There's no way GW would release such gakky bad castings and call them the best miniature models ever made.
These must surely be a few duds which people have got hold of and didn't return.
I mean, seriously!
Praying to the emperor this is true
I love GW and have almost always defended them...but this I cant defend
459
Post by: Hellfury
Kilkrazy wrote:I mean, seriously!
You would think.
I think I may take a trip down to my Local Ultra Friendly Game Shop and see what they have to offer since they are a partner store I am sure they will have some.
Hopefully this really is just a bad lot. Otherwise, it is a sure sign of a bad future of income (or more precisely a lack thereof) for GW.
131
Post by: malfred
SpitfireArsonist wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Come on guys, this has to be a joke.
Surely people are picking out the worst examples they can find of Finecast items. There's no way GW would release such gakky bad castings and call them the best miniature models ever made.
These must surely be a few duds which people have got hold of and didn't return.
I mean, seriously!
I think you have far too much faith in GW.
*raps on sarcasm detector* Automatically Appended Next Post: malfred wrote:SpitfireArsonist wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Come on guys, this has to be a joke.
Surely people are picking out the worst examples they can find of Finecast items. There's no way GW would release such gakky bad castings and call them the best miniature models ever made.
These must surely be a few duds which people have got hold of and didn't return.
I mean, seriously!
I think you have far too much faith in GW.
*raps on sarcasm detector*
*raps on own sarcasm detector*
44092
Post by: Ivan Isaaks
The figures I saw at my local shop when they were pricing them had exactly the same price as their metal version. They also did not have these kind of horrible miscasts...
31013
Post by: SpitfireArsonist
malfred wrote:
*raps on own sarcasm detector*
Duh. That's why I put the face.
41268
Post by: Deepeyes
Ivan Isaaks wrote:The figures I saw at my local shop when they were pricing them had exactly the same price as their metal version. They also did not have these kind of horrible miscasts...
Isn't the price hike meant to happen in June?
1478
Post by: warboss
Death By Monkeys wrote:From the pics shown, I don't think the mold lines are any worse that those you'd commonly see on the metal models. It's just that a) it stands out more starkly in resin, b) these are supposed to be higher quality than the metals, and c) we're paying more for the supposed higher quality.
Well at least they got 1 out of 3... we'll be paying more for them.
123
Post by: Alpharius
Youch.
So much for tighter quality control, especially on the first batch out the door.
The Hype on the Finecast announcement is looking more and more ridiculous after each example is shown...
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Alpharius wrote:Youch.
So much for tighter quality control, especially on the first batch out the door.
The Hype on the Finecast announcement is looking more and more ridiculous after each example is shown...
You really think every single model is like that?
We've seen what, two models with miscasts now?
Oh my God, the whole range is a bust!
44092
Post by: Ivan Isaaks
Deepeyes wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:The figures I saw at my local shop when they were pricing them had exactly the same price as their metal version. They also did not have these kind of horrible miscasts...
Isn't the price hike meant to happen in June?
The price increase is for May 28th as far as I know.
459
Post by: Hellfury
Kanluwen wrote:Alpharius wrote:Youch.
So much for tighter quality control, especially on the first batch out the door.
The Hype on the Finecast announcement is looking more and more ridiculous after each example is shown...
You really think every single model is like that?
We've seen what, two models with miscasts now?
Oh my God, the whole range is a bust!
Compare that to how many great examples of GW's new Failcast we have seen?
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Kanluwen wrote:Alpharius wrote:Youch.
So much for tighter quality control, especially on the first batch out the door.
The Hype on the Finecast announcement is looking more and more ridiculous after each example is shown...
You really think every single model is like that?
We've seen what, two models with miscasts now?
Oh my God, the whole range is a bust!
Two miscasts BEFORE THE MODELS ARE EVEN AVAILABLE.
Yeah, that's pretty bad.
31285
Post by: Chrysis
Did the Terminator Librarian always come with a combi-plasma?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Hellfury wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Alpharius wrote:Youch.
So much for tighter quality control, especially on the first batch out the door.
The Hype on the Finecast announcement is looking more and more ridiculous after each example is shown...
You really think every single model is like that?
We've seen what, two models with miscasts now?
Oh my God, the whole range is a bust!
Compare that to how many great examples of GW's new Failcast we have seen?
I'd love to know how many people got their models this week.
But y'know, even if every single person who got their model posted an example of an absolutely perfect, stunningly detailed model--these two examples we've had posted would be what people point to.
Of course I should add this caveat here:
I'm not saying that these two examples aren't bad. I'm saying that to think that they're representative of the overall quality of the range is ridiculous.
It's damning of GW's lack of quality control, but it's not necessarily damning of the entire range.
21462
Post by: Ehsteve
If this has the same amount of issues as metals I honestly am reconsidering any thought of purchasing a finecast.
The issue simply is: I know metal, I can deal with metal, I can get extra parts for metal etc.
Finecast however...I can see the exact same amount of issues as metal. It's trading off one set of problems for another. If I do find a perfect cast (like the off chancers I get from FW orders) fantastic, but my hopes aren't up at the moment.
Note I am still going for metals after multiple pinnings for 20 iron warrior CSM conversions over the last 2 days, that is not including the 10 resin-metal conversions using metal meltas on MKIII FW Iron Armour.
Since it is noted how soft the material is, I am suddenly drawn away from the prospect of conversions using finecast resin, the pieces will simply be too buttery to do much work with or support much weight it seems.
44092
Post by: Ivan Isaaks
If someone else posts a second pic of a six legged dog it is proven that ALL dogs now have six legs...
37694
Post by: Radical_Edward
Is it that you can't say where you got it because this one was maybe supposed to be tossed out? 
I'm hoping Eldar recasts are good...
5111
Post by: MikeMcSomething
I'm not sure how you can end a review with a model that is *miscast*, with several air bubbles, and a staff that is bent and required a blowdryer and a freezer to straighten, with "Time will tell if this is a good decision or not!" Were you just hesitant to type anything that wasn't cautious optimism?
This should have been the review:
Hey I got this finecast model
It's totally miscast
I sent it back, they will send me a new one
Time will tell if finecast models lend themselves to more miscasts or if this was just a one-time thing, stay tuned!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ivan Isaaks wrote:If someone else posts a second pic of a six legged dog it is proven that ALL dogs now have six legs...
Four posts in and all you've done is defend Finecost. Got an investment riding on this or something? A bet, even?
36277
Post by: The Decapitator
Price change comes into effect Saturday.
The reason he can't say where he got it from is because either he or the person who enabled him to have it would get the sack from GW. Nobody other than GW employees were meant to have seen these yet, when delivered to stores they were meant to go straight out into the store room. Hell, GW staff weren't even allowed to take their staff copies of WD home just in case they left it on the bus or something.
By all accounts this was billed to all as top top top secret, but I guess everything gets out. Just hope nobody else loses their job over it, I know of at least 3 people so far who were given the boot for releasing info early on Finecast.
Ah well.....
2764
Post by: AgeOfEgos
Maybe he got it from Russia, which would explain the miscast! 
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
The Decapitator wrote:Hell, GW staff weren't even allowed to take their staff copies of WD home just in case they left it on the bus or something.
One wonders why. I mean, I'd say the greater majority of people wouldn't care if they found it, as they wouldn't know what it was.
19245
Post by: Fix
Are the White Dwarfs supposed to be embargoed or something? I was flipping through it at the LGS yesterday.
735
Post by: JOHIRA
I wasn't really planning on giving GW any of my money after their completely unnecessary price rise anyway, but this pretty much confirms my instinct. With as soft as this resin sounds, I'm afraid I'd break it just with normal use.
No thank you, GW. You were already overpriced. Now you want me to pay more for an inferior product that costs you less to produce? I don't think so.
21462
Post by: Ehsteve
H.B.M.C. wrote:The Decapitator wrote:Hell, GW staff weren't even allowed to take their staff copies of WD home just in case they left it on the bus or something.
One wonders why. I mean, I'd say the greater majority of people wouldn't care if they found it, as they wouldn't know what it was.
GW's concerned about all the 'free-loaders' and that they might find their last horcrux: the next WD magazine.
That storm bolter is pretty sad-looking really. But In guess if you weren't going to use it it wouldn't be such a big issue...but if you're paying extra, you should expect better, not the same.
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Post by: derek
Chrysis wrote:Did the Terminator Librarian always come with a combi-plasma?
Yes, they did.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
The Decapitator wrote:By all accounts this was billed to all as top top top secret, but I guess everything gets out. Just hope nobody else loses their job over it, I know of at least 3 people so far who were given the boot for releasing info early on Finecast.
Umm really? They are toy soldiers not state secrets.
infinite_array wrote:Baiyuan wrote:Having purchased that model under normal circumstances you would just give it back and get one with more than a half stormbolter. So give em back, let GW sort them out.
Until GW realizes they're getting an 'abnormally' large amount of returns, and since this so-called 'resin' can't be melted down like metal, they institute a 'no returns' policy on them.
Well in case anyone is in any doubt I think people should be aware that their customer rights mean that GW *have* to give them a replacement or their money back. Stores can't refuse returns on faulty products it's called the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and basically states that if a product isn't fit for the purpose for which it was sold, ie damaged or otherwise defective, then you are entitled to a return.
That said I don't this will be a problem, GW have always honoured customer rights, it's about the one thing they deliver on. Though it could be a sore point for them should these miscasts be a wider issue.
Though I do recall when they made the switch to lead free metals there seemed to be q lot more miscasts, it's probably down to inexperience with new casting materials the getting things like temperatures and timings right. I don't usually swoop in to defend GW and I've even predicted a rise in miscasts but I would imagine they would address it in time. Assuming of course that it doesn't cause them serious harm.
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Post by: Dice Monkey
You have to roll 2d6 refer to the chart on how you should dispose of the model. Refunds are only issued on a natural roll of 36+, no skews.
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Post by: Ivan Isaaks
H.B.M.C. wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:If someone else posts a second pic of a six legged dog it is proven that ALL dogs now have six legs...
Four posts in and all you've done is defend Finecost.
Got an investment riding on this or something? A bet, even?
Actually not. I generally just read the forum but I was tired of all the generalizations that were made, so I created an account. The constant whine about everything that is going
wrong is just so tiresome. All the little bad points are blown out of proportion and there is absolutely nothing GW can do right these days. I really like 40k, I don't play it I just buy
the models and paint them. Is it an expensive hobby, sure, but there are plenty of hobbies that are more expensive. I also collect models from Warmachine, Infinity and some Hasselfree
miniatures, but 40K just has that little bit of extra. probably mostly nostalgic, but it's just there.
Do I like price increases? Absolutely not, but it is not as terrible as some people say it is.
36277
Post by: The Decapitator
Yup, to most they are toy soldiers. Yet when you see the amount of websites such as this which have a dedicated following of people searching for rumours of new releases of said 'Toy Soldiers', you'd be forgiven for mistaking the information was indeed state secrets.
From GW's point of view, they have invested time and money into this project and they want to release it to the world all at once, and provide all the relevant information correctly and in a controlled manner. What they don't want is people posting pictures of a couple of random models of unknown origins which may or may not be representative of the whole Finecast range, and then everyone getting upset and condemning it before they've even given it a chance.
As for the WD issue, I may have been flippant. But I think they may well have been worried that staff member A takes it home, and his friend *borrows* it and then next thing it's up on the net. I believe they are just trying to protect their investment from all sides for the reasons stated above.
And if you hadn't already guessed, I think they do have every right to, at least attempt to anyway.
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Post by: Ma55ter_fett
Surely you can just take the mini back and exchange it for another?
Open it there in the shop to make sure you won't be making a return trip.
I can see it being more difficult for ebay buyers though, if you happen to buy a NIB model that is full of miscasts you would be out of luck.
For the record I like the few metal mini’s I have, the wonder of being able to brain someone from across the room with one cannot be overstated.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
The Decapitator wrote:Yup, to most they are toy soldiers. Yet when you see the amount of websites such as this which have a dedicated following of people searching for rumours of new releases of said 'Toy Soldiers', you'd be forgiven for mistaking the information was indeed state secrets.
Well that's largely caused by GW even more cracking down on any sort of preview material to the point where they only publicly release details a week in advance and withhold the subscriber copies of White Dwarf. It's almost a bizarre level of secrecy, like they think that all their problems in the company are caused by a few leaks and if they could only be more secretive and take an almost McCarthyist approach to rooting out people who let the slightest thing out of the bag then they would make a lot more money.
Unlike say Hasbro that attend trade shows and proudly show off almost a year's worth of releases and even hints for future products beyond that.
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Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
Mr Proudhoof wrote:ChiliPowderKeg wrote:Mr Proudhoof wrote:Is this a miscast? There are bits missing from the banner pole?
Also is part of the winged skull's wings if you zoom in.
Yes, I just noticed that too. Hmmm. Will have to get my hands on one myself. That means venturing into a GW retail store this weekend...
Be wary not to get your hands covered with flash, like the Librarian's
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Post by: AvatarForm
Actually, given that the sprues are already out, I see now problem for Chinese (general, I know) recasters such as Dreambox (caomao on EBay) re-casting these in resin very soon and undercutting the market for the Southern hemisphere.
The quality of caomao's recasts are just as shabby.
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Post by: infinite_array
Ivan Isaaks wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:If someone else posts a second pic of a six legged dog it is proven that ALL dogs now have six legs...
Four posts in and all you've done is defend Finecost.
Got an investment riding on this or something? A bet, even?
Actually not. I generally just read the forum but I was tired of all the generalizations that were made, so I created an account. The constant whine about everything that is going
wrong is just so tiresome. All the little bad points are blown out of proportion and there is absolutely nothing GW can do right these days. I really like 40k, I don't play it I just buy
the models and paint them. Is it an expensive hobby, sure, but there are plenty of hobbies that are more expensive. I also collect models from Warmachine, Infinity and some Hasselfree
miniatures, but 40K just has that little bit of extra. probably mostly nostalgic, but it's just there.
Do I like price increases? Absolutely not, but it is not as terrible as some people say it is.
You know, I've always had a bit of a problem with people commenting when they don't actually play the game. I don't feel any hostility towards them, but here's the thing: You aren't pressured to buy things when you don't have an army to make. People who solely see GW as a miniature company aren't affected by the price rises, or any of the other problems that have arisen from GW's sales. You get to pick a model that looks good to you, or a unit that you may want to convert and paint. You aren't affected when new Codices are released, when rules are changed, or when staple boxsets (i.e., troops) have their prices increased or are released in such a way that using them becomes a financial burden.
Now, back on topic. I say we wait and see how these Finecost miniatures turn out. Yes, this one may have been shabby, but who knows - perhaps it was just plain back luck, or this first run isn't so great and following runs will be better. At the very least, anyone who buys a poorly formed model should be able to take it back and pick up a new one.
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Post by: Darth Bob
I find it hard to believe that GW would release an entire line of miniatures with miscasts as bad as this model.
I'm going to take the side of "the few we've seen are just bad apples".
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Post by: AvatarForm
infinite_array wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:If someone else posts a second pic of a six legged dog it is proven that ALL dogs now have six legs...
Four posts in and all you've done is defend Finecost.
Got an investment riding on this or something? A bet, even?
Actually not. I generally just read the forum but I was tired of all the generalizations that were made, so I created an account. The constant whine about everything that is going
wrong is just so tiresome. All the little bad points are blown out of proportion and there is absolutely nothing GW can do right these days. I really like 40k, I don't play it I just buy
the models and paint them. Is it an expensive hobby, sure, but there are plenty of hobbies that are more expensive. I also collect models from Warmachine, Infinity and some Hasselfree
miniatures, but 40K just has that little bit of extra. probably mostly nostalgic, but it's just there.
Do I like price increases? Absolutely not, but it is not as terrible as some people say it is.
You know, I've always had a bit of a problem with people commenting when they don't actually play the game. I don't feel any hostility towards them, but here's the thing: You aren't pressured to buy things when you don't have an army to make. People who solely see GW as a miniature company aren't affected by the price rises, or any of the other problems that have arisen from GW's sales. You get to pick a model that looks good to you, or a unit that you may want to convert and paint. You aren't affected when new Codices are released, when rules are changed, or when staple boxsets (i.e., troops) have their prices increased or are released in such a way that using them becomes a financial burden.
Now, back on topic. I say we wait and see how these Finecost miniatures turn out. Yes, this one may have been shabby, but who knows - perhaps it was just plain back luck, or this first run isn't so great and following runs will be better. At the very least, anyone who buys a poorly formed model should be able to take it back and pick up a new one.
Very well said.
This is similar to the feelings towards those who apologise for GW's embargo who are not located within the Southern Hemisphere.
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Post by: Flaming Troll
legion4500 wrote:
Missed this during the reg review which someone pointed out to me (good eye!): the storm bolter is miscast and missing the whole top half (i used the hand option). GRRRRRRRRR.
This just screams quality product
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Post by: Cryonicleech
You know, before I jump on the bandwagon and say that Finecast is the worst thing ever, I'll head down and purchase one so ya'll can see another one. If the quality is poor, we can tell that maybe GW isn't producing these very well. But, honestly, from my honest opinion, it's not bad. It's not great, amazing, fantastic or even good, but it's not bad. Meh.
The stormbolter is a serious issue, but, and this is just a personal feeling, but replacing it with a plastic bit or whatever isn't a huge issue for me. I'm not saying FINECAST IS THE WINZ, but I'd like to give GW the benefit of the doubt before I unanimously judge them. I am slightly worried though, but meh.
Oh, and just because I can, I'll say this. I've had PP models with missing arm parts. Renegade pics to follow up shortly. Is that indicative of ALL PP models? Not really. I'd really rather wait and see for myself.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Cryonicleech wrote:... but I'd like to give GW the benefit of the doubt ...
While I agree that judging an entire line from from some pictures of four different products is a bad start, what exactly has GW done to earn the benefit of the doubt?
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Post by: Cryonicleech
Nothing really.
I'd really just rather see a mini up close for myself before finally pushing the button, and while they have not really earned benefit of the doubt, I'd still like to think that Finecast might end up being a decent move for GW.
Hell, at the very least, Ushabti cost less.
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Post by: Ivan Isaaks
infinite_array wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Ivan Isaaks wrote:If someone else posts a second pic of a six legged dog it is proven that ALL dogs now have six legs...
Four posts in and all you've done is defend Finecost.
Got an investment riding on this or something? A bet, even?
Actually not. I generally just read the forum but I was tired of all the generalizations that were made, so I created an account. The constant whine about everything that is going
wrong is just so tiresome. All the little bad points are blown out of proportion and there is absolutely nothing GW can do right these days. I really like 40k, I don't play it I just buy
the models and paint them. Is it an expensive hobby, sure, but there are plenty of hobbies that are more expensive. I also collect models from Warmachine, Infinity and some Hasselfree
miniatures, but 40K just has that little bit of extra. probably mostly nostalgic, but it's just there.
Do I like price increases? Absolutely not, but it is not as terrible as some people say it is.
You know, I've always had a bit of a problem with people commenting when they don't actually play the game. I don't feel any hostility towards them, but here's the thing: You aren't pressured to buy things when you don't have an army to make. People who solely see GW as a miniature company aren't affected by the price rises, or any of the other problems that have arisen from GW's sales. You get to pick a model that looks good to you, or a unit that you may want to convert and paint. You aren't affected when new Codices are released, when rules are changed, or when staple boxsets (i.e., troops) have their prices increased or are released in such a way that using them becomes a financial burden.
Now, back on topic. I say we wait and see how these Finecost miniatures turn out. Yes, this one may have been shabby, but who knows - perhaps it was just plain back luck, or this first run isn't so great and following runs will be better. At the very least, anyone who buys a poorly formed model should be able to take it back and pick up a new one.
Not playing does not mean I don' buy codexes (I have 7 of them + 2 versions of the rulebook) or that I do not create armies. I just don't go to the hobby center to actually play. And not playing does not mean that my opinion on this does not count.
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Post by: -Loki-
infinite_array wrote:You know, I've always had a bit of a problem with people commenting when they don't actually play the game. I don't feel any hostility towards them, but here's the thing: You aren't pressured to buy things when you don't have an army to make. People who solely see GW as a miniature company aren't affected by the price rises, or any of the other problems that have arisen from GW's sales. You get to pick a model that looks good to you, or a unit that you may want to convert and paint. You aren't affected when new Codices are released, when rules are changed, or when staple boxsets (i.e., troops) have their prices increased or are released in such a way that using them becomes a financial burden.
You know, I've always had a problem with this kind of attitude as well.
He doesn't play the game, but does buy and paint the models? He's got just the same right to complain or defend GW as you do. Why? You don't have to buy anything either. You don't have to buy that new codex. You don't have to buy that new rulebook. You don't have to buy those staple box sets. Why? Because you don't have to play Warhammer.
Warhammer is a hobby, something that is not essential in any capacity whatsoever. You want to play it. I get that. But you don't have to play it. he doesn't have to buy models to paint, but he does want to. So while he's not affected by say, a new codex, he is affected by a general price rise. So get off your pedestal. Playing Warhammer rather than buying the models to paint doesn't give you any more valid argument, because he, just like you, loses out to bad quality products and price rises. If he buys a Finecast model with a crater for a head, he's lost out due to bad quality just like you would have.
If he sees something to defend, don't just say he doesn't matter because he only enjoys the hobby aspect rather than the game aspect, because it's a dumb argument. As long as he's buying GW products, just like you, he's got the same right to complain about or defend quality as you do.
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Post by: MandalorynOranj
Nobody's saying your opinion doesn't count. But even if you do create armies, by not playing you don't have to worry about them being any good, as long as they look good. When they release new rules, to stay competitive you usually have to buy new models. I haven't been playing long enough to have been through an edition change, but I'm dreading 6th coming along and completely changing what units are viable in a list.
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Post by: ChiliPowderKeg
Just took a look back at the pics. Time for some more nitpicking.
1. Next to his buttplate, the leg plate to the left seems to have a had a bite been taken out of it
2. The top rounded part of the bookbanner, from behind, seems to be quite porous.
3. The bottom of the tubing on the left arm looks like it has also taken some nibbles.
4. His right leg, in between the leg plate and kneepad, appears to have some kind of a crater.
All in all I'm quite surprised the stupid looking "tied" skull things weren't ruined.
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Post by: Absolutionis
infinite_array wrote:Now, back on topic. I say we wait and see how these Finecost miniatures turn out.
Is this intentional, or is it a Freudian typo?
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Post by: Defenestratus
I would like to know more about the thermal properties of the models. Those of us that live in hot environments, like here in Orlando - will be super pissed if we can't leave our minis in the car for 5 minutes.
That cast is about the worst thing I've seen come out of GW ever. And I've been playing this game since nearly the beginning.
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Post by: orctez
This reminds me of the moment when Rackham decided to trade their beautiful metal minis for prepainted plastics. No thanks! I'm sticking with my metal minis!
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Post by: army310
Hellfury wrote:The main issue I am seeing here is a pretty basic flaw and makes it look amateurish.
That flaw being a complete lack of vacuum facilities to work out the air bubbles.
I am not sure if they expect simply dumping resin in a mold will do the trick, but assuming they know what they are doing enough to do it right and are actually using a vacuum, then there is a severe disconnect in how the vacuum procedure is working.
Because a few minor bubbles is acceptable and even expected. But not anywhere near to this degree.
The storm bolter is bad but over all its not bad and We should wait and see if this just first batch hiccups Which it could be.
Kanluwen wrote:Hellfury wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Alpharius wrote:Youch.
So much for tighter quality control, especially on the first batch out the door.
The Hype on the Finecast announcement is looking more and more ridiculous after each example is shown...
You really think every single model is like that?
We've seen what, two models with miscasts now?
Oh my God, the whole range is a bust!
Compare that to how many great examples of GW's new Failcast we have seen?
I'd love to know how many people got their models this week.
But y'know, even if every single person who got their model posted an example of an absolutely perfect, stunningly detailed model--these two examples we've had posted would be what people point to.
Of course I should add this caveat here:
I'm not saying that these two examples aren't bad. I'm saying that to think that they're representative of the overall quality of the range is ridiculous.
It's damning of GW's lack of quality control, but it's not necessarily damning of the entire range.
Yo I'm with you 100%. To everyone keep a leave head and wait to see if is how they will be or if this was just a bump in the road for GW. 
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Post by: dumbuket
On the bright side, the new material will make assembly easier for the larger more difficult to build kits, like the scrap launcher. You know, the blobby undetailed ones where poor casting quality doesn't matter.
Wait, the scrap launcher is being discontinued anyway, right? Are there any models that would benefit from switching to soft, badly cast resin that most of its detail with a basecoat?
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Post by: ronin1973
Oh man, I am so disappointed of this. I had high hopes for Finecast as I have always prefered resin or plastic over metal. 
They are truely bad enough to be returned. Here's one more hoping that these are an exception!
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Post by: Defenestratus
Talking to one of my friends who got his Finecast shipments in, he says he can't make out any of the mentioned flaws "without taking it out of the packaging". Says that Astorath's armor looks magnificent.
He does say that one of his draigo sprues has air bubbles in it however.
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Post by: Wise Guy Sam
Wish I didn't preoerder 2 boxes of wracks last night from maelstrom as a last hurrah. I would hate to think one of the last GW products I brought to 'Finish' (was going to be alot bigger) my army was 2 box's of rubbish and admitedly a sweet look jet fighter. Atleast if they are as bad as they seem it will help eliminate any future temptation to pay RRP like GW 'plans' for me to do 
I await to see more, but I have already lost faith in GW this month so I can't give them any credit until they earn it. I don't understand why people are bothering to defend 'fine'cast products anyway. Best possible result is they don't stuff it up completly (as all it really is at this stage the exact same models in a different material thats requires more work to prepare and could be raveged by ).
Even if I don't plan on making to many more GW purches I still hope it turns out better then the above example, not for GW's sake but for the mates I've made online or in RL who will continue to buy it.
But if it looks like crap and smells like crap ...well 
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
... it might just be one poor example.
The OP has it before scheduled release if I understand correctly.
Early production teething troubles, who knows
It is better to hang fire and see if this is the norm, before writing off the whole show.
Anyone cares to call me a fanboy please check my previous posts.
Then again, if GW didn't play Tinker, Tailor, Toy Soldier, Spy, then we wouldn't be getting unofficial reviews that can be damaging.
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Post by: Absolutionis
A fine chap on the Facebook page linked the following German site for more images of Finecast. Nothing really shows any horrid deformations:
http://www.gw-fanworld.net/showthread.php?t=155489&page=133
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Post by: RiTides
Thanks for sharing this... looks pretty good to me for the body; the bent staff and miscast storm bolter are a pretty big bummer, though.
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Post by: infinite_array
-Loki- wrote:infinite_array wrote:You know, I've always had a bit of a problem with people commenting when they don't actually play the game. I don't feel any hostility towards them, but here's the thing: You aren't pressured to buy things when you don't have an army to make. People who solely see GW as a miniature company aren't affected by the price rises, or any of the other problems that have arisen from GW's sales. You get to pick a model that looks good to you, or a unit that you may want to convert and paint. You aren't affected when new Codices are released, when rules are changed, or when staple boxsets (i.e., troops) have their prices increased or are released in such a way that using them becomes a financial burden.
You know, I've always had a problem with this kind of attitude as well.
He doesn't play the game, but does buy and paint the models? He's got just the same right to complain or defend GW as you do. Why? You don't have to buy anything either. You don't have to buy that new codex. You don't have to buy that new rulebook. You don't have to buy those staple box sets. Why? Because you don't have to play Warhammer.
Warhammer is a hobby, something that is not essential in any capacity whatsoever. You want to play it. I get that. But you don't have to play it. he doesn't have to buy models to paint, but he does want to. So while he's not affected by say, a new codex, he is affected by a general price rise. So get off your pedestal. Playing Warhammer rather than buying the models to paint doesn't give you any more valid argument, because he, just like you, loses out to bad quality products and price rises. If he buys a Finecast model with a crater for a head, he's lost out due to bad quality just like you would have.
If he sees something to defend, don't just say he doesn't matter because he only enjoys the hobby aspect rather than the game aspect, because it's a dumb argument. As long as he's buying GW products, just like you, he's got the same right to complain about or defend quality as you do.
I'm sorry, but a few points in your argument are flawed.
When a new set of rules comes out, who has to buy it - the player, or the hobbyist?
The player.
When a new codex is released, thus rendering the older one obsolete, who has to buy it - the player, or the hobbiyst?
The player.
When the game adjusts itself so that, say, troops become more important, or when larger units are necessary, who has to buy more - the player, or the hobbyist?
The player.
The hobbyist comes along, picks out what he wants, and when he wants it. The player, on the other hand, needs to buy those new items, especially if he plays at a GW store, or attends tournaments. When another price hike comes along, the hobbyist can say, 'Oops, that's a bit more expensive. Well, no matter. It's not like I need it."
HOWEVER!
The poster whose comment I responded to came back and said that 'not playing' means that he does not go to the local hobby center. If he plays with friends, then he is a player. Whether it is of his own mind, or simply his friends repeatedly pounding on him, he will be influenced to plan out armies and make purchases based upon those plans. Thus, in my mind at least, he has every right to complain/defend GW and their policies.
Absolutionis wrote:infinite_array wrote:Now, back on topic. I say we wait and see how these Finecost miniatures turn out.
Is this intentional, or is it a Freudian typo?
Intentional!
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Post by: deleted20250424
True, except all the pitting, flash, deformed details, etc.... There's a couple things that look pretty clean, but if you look at each immage overall, there are many issues.
Again, lots of pitting, pieces/areas just missing material (look at pipes/hoses/wires), so much flash you could choke a horse, and so on.
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Post by: infinite_array
Whoops! Edit mistake.
Move along!
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Post by: MajorTom11
Dirty, dirty quality control so far... But, I would not count them out just yet, it will, I hope, just take a little time for them to sort it out. Still, if this continues to a high degree when launch officially happens, those who want to 'be optimistic' can sprinkle all the sparkles on that turd they want, but smelly gak is smelly.
So, for dirty quality control, even just thus far, GW, you get the Badger.
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Post by: Guildsman
See, I do thino that these few bad examples do have a bearing on the quality of the range as a whole. Will they all be as atrocious as these examples? Of course not. But the fact that any bad examples could be found at all is worrisome. Look at the picture of the packaging. That librarian was intended for sale. The fact that any models from the first run of finecast available to the public are that bad is unacceptable, especially when GW is literally touting these as the best wargaming miniatures ever.
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Post by: -Loki-
infinite_array wrote:I'm sorry, but a few points in your argument are flawed.
When a new set of rules comes out, who has to buy it - the player, or the hobbyist?
The player.
When a new codex is released, thus rendering the older one obsolete, who has to buy it - the player, or the hobbiyst?
The player.
When the game adjusts itself so that, say, troops become more important, or when larger units are necessary, who has to buy more - the player, or the hobbyist?
The player.
The hobbyist comes along, picks out what he wants, and when he wants it. The player, on the other hand, needs to buy those new items, especially if he plays at a GW store, or attends tournaments. When another price hike comes along, the hobbyist can say, 'Oops, that's a bit more expensive. Well, no matter. It's not like I need it."
HOWEVER!
The poster whose comment I responded to came back and said that 'not playing' means that he does not go to the local hobby center. If he plays with friends, then he is a player. Whether it is of his own mind, or simply his friends repeatedly pounding on him, he will be influenced to plan out armies and make purchases based upon those plans. Thus, in my mind at least, he has every right to complain/defend GW and their policies.
I'm sorry, but a few points in your argument are flawed.
Why do you have to buy new rules, new models, new rules, etc? It's a hobby. You buy things for it when you have the money, if you can afford it. You don't have to buy any of this. That was the point I'm making. The way you spoke of it made it sound like buying these things had to be done only by someone who plays the game. None of it has to be done.
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Post by: dkellyj
It would be nice to assume this was a miscast sent to a buddy as an early freebie. However, the fact the model was sealed in a blister pack ready for sale tells me the QC person at GW is sorely in need of a kick in the nuts. If this is what we can expect GW is about to lose a lot of money on this...and anyone who bought up all the metal models on the shelves is about to make a killing on Ebay.
As for me; hater of metal that I am; I will continue to use standard Tac Squad models and bitz to create my own HQs and Special Characters.
My Vulkan
Sternguard Heavy Flamer
Lysander
All made from standard models and bitz...at a significant savings i might add.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
There is one other thing that I am concerned with. If the material is as soft as what people are saying. Down the road, how do you strip those fine cast models? If you can't use files on them because you can damage them, what tools that you need do you scrub them down and remove the paint material on them? What chemicals will you use on this soft material?
Is this Games Workshop's answer to people who buy models second hand on Ebay and/or other places to save money by stripping the paint off of the models themselves? A one use product concept so that GW can sell you more of the same product because you are unable to easily remove the paint off them? And if that is the case, what is going to stop them on the rest of the line of their products in the foreseeable future?
Flawed product can be returned for a refund.
Not being able to easily strip models due to softness of material, and/or chemical reactions to the material resulting in damage to the model is the concern to me.
I'm worried about that than anything else.
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Post by: Padre
Adam,
Very good point - a lot of people (like myself) obtain the majority of our models 2nd hand and then strip them.
Personally, though, from the shining examples I've seen so far of Finecost, I think I'll be sticking to metal or resin.
One thing however, that I have used to quite successfully strip resin is "Oven Off", a sodium hydroxide based cleaner that doesn't attack plastic or resin (as long as you don't soak your models for too long.)
Experimentation will tell, I suppose, but I won't be going out of my way to get any of these to try.
Padre^.
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Post by: AresX8
Adam LongWalker wrote:There is one other thing that I am concerned with. If the material is as soft as what people are saying. Down the road, how do you strip those fine cast models? If you can't use files on them because you can damage them, what tools that you need do you scrub them down and remove the paint material on them? What chemicals will you use on this soft material?
Is this Games Workshop's answer to people who buy models second hand on Ebay and/or other places to save money by stripping the paint off of the models themselves? A one use product concept so that GW can sell you more of the same product because you are unable to easily remove the paint off them? And if that is the case, what is going to stop them on the rest of the line of their products in the foreseeable future?
Flawed product can be returned for a refund.
Not being able to easily strip models due to softness of material, and/or chemical reactions to the material resulting in damage to the model is the concern to me.
I'm worried about that than anything else.
Someone would have to try stripping sprue, that would be the best bet to find out.
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Post by: Padre
ADDITION:
Sorry if it's already been mentioned but there is a review of Failcast over at "3++ is the New Black". It's of Draigo.
Reviewer seems...underwhelmed.
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/05/citadel-finecast.html
Padre^.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
-Loki- wrote:I'm sorry, but a few points in your argument are flawed.
Why do you have to buy new rules, new models, new rules, etc? It's a hobby. You buy things for it when you have the money, if you can afford it. You don't have to buy any of this. That was the point I'm making. The way you spoke of it made it sound like buying these things had to be done only by someone who plays the game. None of it has to be done.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, that the hobby itself is optional does not make the components of it optional within the hobby. I don't have to own a car, but if I do, and intend to drive it, it has to have an engine, seats, seat belts, certifications, and so on.
That's the same point Infinite is making: a collector (hobbyist) doesn't need a working car, any more then a hobbyist needs a well rounded model line. The driver/player needs things to work; consider the Grotesques that have been previewed here. If you just want to paint one Grotesque, the fact that they are monopose doesn't really matter, you only need one, after all. If, on the other hand, you wanted to run a unit of five in a game, the lack of poses becomes more vexing. If a collector's collection becomes invalidated (not street legal) it doesn't actually affect him, as his interest is in aesthetics, not playabilty.
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Post by: j3r03n
Can we limit the comments back to the actual topic as opposed to who can or cannot have an opinion about it? Everyone here has some interest in the models, thats enough. Moving on.
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Post by: AvatarForm
Not already posted in this thread, but I posted it in the other thread.
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Post by: infinite_array
Adam LongWalker wrote:There is one other thing that I am concerned with. If the material is as soft as what people are saying. Down the road, how do you strip those fine cast models? If you can't use files on them because you can damage them, what tools that you need do you scrub them down and remove the paint material on them? What chemicals will you use on this soft material?
Is this Games Workshop's answer to people who buy models second hand on Ebay and/or other places to save money by stripping the paint off of the models themselves? A one use product concept so that GW can sell you more of the same product because you are unable to easily remove the paint off them? And if that is the case, what is going to stop them on the rest of the line of their products in the foreseeable future?
Flawed product can be returned for a refund.
Not being able to easily strip models due to softness of material, and/or chemical reactions to the material resulting in damage to the model is the concern to me.
I'm worried about that than anything else.
I don't know... I think most of the ' GW's an evil mastermind' comes from them making unwise decisions that - to their surprise - aren't taken too well by the consumers. Implying that GW is doing this on purpose to deviously screw-over the secondary market seems a bit... well thought out.
On the other hand, if that's true? Then we need to get some recent pictures of the GW execs, as they must all have goatees and mustaches capable of being twirled between fingers.
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Post by: Starfarer
-Loki- wrote:infinite_array wrote:I'm sorry, but a few points in your argument are flawed.
When a new set of rules comes out, who has to buy it - the player, or the hobbyist?
The player.
When a new codex is released, thus rendering the older one obsolete, who has to buy it - the player, or the hobbiyst?
The player.
When the game adjusts itself so that, say, troops become more important, or when larger units are necessary, who has to buy more - the player, or the hobbyist?
The player.
The hobbyist comes along, picks out what he wants, and when he wants it. The player, on the other hand, needs to buy those new items, especially if he plays at a GW store, or attends tournaments. When another price hike comes along, the hobbyist can say, 'Oops, that's a bit more expensive. Well, no matter. It's not like I need it."
HOWEVER!
The poster whose comment I responded to came back and said that 'not playing' means that he does not go to the local hobby center. If he plays with friends, then he is a player. Whether it is of his own mind, or simply his friends repeatedly pounding on him, he will be influenced to plan out armies and make purchases based upon those plans. Thus, in my mind at least, he has every right to complain/defend GW and their policies.
I'm sorry, but a few points in your argument are flawed.
Why do you have to buy new rules, new models, new rules, etc? It's a hobby. You buy things for it when you have the money, if you can afford it. You don't have to buy any of this. That was the point I'm making. The way you spoke of it made it sound like buying these things had to be done only by someone who plays the game. None of it has to be done.
Welcome to the mind of an addict. They hate the plastic crack, yet despite their constant agonizing over it, continue to purchase their drug of choice, as if it's mandatory to do so. And of course get angry at the 'pusher' for forcing them to buy it. Yet they have to buy it. 
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Post by: Kingsley
I think a lot of anti-GW trolls on Dakka have tipped their hand a little too early on this one. People are getting mad at GW over a review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one? Sorry if I'm not ready to break out the torches and pitchforks just yet!
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Post by: darkkt
Despite my general disdain over complaints about pricing (aka - no-one is forcing you to buy - and there are excellent competitor products), I have to get on board with quality complaints. If the product is spruiked as being the second coming, you better damn well heal some lepers.
These negative reviews appear to be more than the standard 'GW-haters'. Rather the views and reviews seem to be expressed by 'dissapointed GW-hopefuls' those who have trusted the company, and been let down.
I want to see some finecast in person... but I wont be rushing.
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Post by: MajorTom11
Likewise apologists are out in force lol, or is that StormBolter miscast something to pop champagne over and celebrate either???
Imo, no one should be jumping the gun and declaring FineCast to be forever more a fail. But by the same token, no one should be pretending quality control failures in the opening batch are anything to be encouraged about either.
Don't sugar-coat the turd.
BUT
Don't declare the Rapture because some 90 year old dude from New Mexico said so either.
Let's wait and see without anyone making sweeping final comments just yet... does that sound reasonable or am I nuts???
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Post by: infinite_array
Fetterkey wrote:I think a lot of anti-GW trolls on Dakka have tipped their hand a little too early on this one. People are getting mad at GW over a review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one? Sorry if I'm not ready to break out the torches and pitchforks just yet!
Can you get me a link to the "review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one"? I haven't seen one yet.
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Post by: Cryonicleech
You'd be sane anywhere else. This is the internet. tsk tsk
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Post by: Nasakenai
I'll get these for particularly annoying metals such as the techmarine, Oblits, lictors, etc. Don't really see much of a point for the one man figs.
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Post by: Kingsley
infinite_array wrote:Fetterkey wrote:I think a lot of anti-GW trolls on Dakka have tipped their hand a little too early on this one. People are getting mad at GW over a review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one? Sorry if I'm not ready to break out the torches and pitchforks just yet!
Can you get me a link to the "review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one"? I haven't seen one yet.
Oh yeah? It's literally the thread you're posting in right now.
legion4500 wrote:Do i think a price jump is needed? NOPE. Do I like the finecast more then metal. Absolutely!!!
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Post by: ph34r
Overall I'm a fan of finecast. I can't wait to open up a box of wracks or mandrakes, find one horribly miscast, and get a free box.
It's like a stealth price drop!
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Post by: infinite_array
ph34r wrote:Overall I'm a fan of finecast. I can't wait to open up a box of wracks or mandrakes, find one horribly miscast, and get a free box.
It's like a stealth price drop!
...
Can we give this man a medal?
please don't attach non war gaming images directly to Dakka. Thanks
reds8n
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Post by: MajorTom11
ph34r wrote:Overall I'm a fan of finecast. I can't wait to open up a box of wracks or mandrakes, find one horribly miscast, and get a free box.
It's like a stealth price drop!
Lol, if this is the case and they treat it with equal ease and generosity as FW, that would indeed be awesome!
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Part of the problem, if not the whole problem, may be the way the releases are being handled. I am not sure, so please correct me if this is not the case, but it appears that the old metal casting moulds have been reworked. If so, they will not produce models as crisp and detailed as GW have claimed. New toolings for models specifically made for this technique of casting may well prove world beaters. But that does not seem to be what we are getting. So when you say that world beating casts will be sold at a greater cost while selling the new old stuff people will start getting concerned. GW couldn't plan a route down a one way street. Automatically Appended Next Post: Can we give this man a medal?
only if it's Finecast!
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Post by: mazik765
infinite_array wrote:Fetterkey wrote:I think a lot of anti-GW trolls on Dakka have tipped their hand a little too early on this one. People are getting mad at GW over a review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one? Sorry if I'm not ready to break out the torches and pitchforks just yet!
Can you get me a link to the "review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one"? I haven't seen one yet.
I don't mean to be rude but...
legion4500 wrote:Do I like the finecast more then metal. Absolutely!!!
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Post by: infinite_array
mazik765 wrote:infinite_array wrote:Fetterkey wrote:I think a lot of anti-GW trolls on Dakka have tipped their hand a little too early on this one. People are getting mad at GW over a review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one? Sorry if I'm not ready to break out the torches and pitchforks just yet!
Can you get me a link to the "review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one"? I haven't seen one yet.
I don't mean to be rude but...
legion4500 wrote:Do I like the finecast more then metal. Absolutely!!!
How is that rude? I asked for a citation, and I received it. Twice, in fact!
Therefore, I would like to apologize. I was, in fact, clearly in the wrong.
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Post by: Varrick
Nice bit about the hair dryer. I probably would have cut it in half at the bend, inserted a needle or pin, and hoped that fixed it.
Might wait to get a commissar until they work out the kinks.
Edit: if i get a free one for miss cast model i will purposely BUY the miscast one and deal with it.
Deal with it.
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Post by: Vimes
So far the Finecast reviews seem to support my decision to leave GW behind.
Then again people tend to be more vocal about negative things than positive ones. It´s entirely possible that there are countless ok Finecasts products out there but people feel no need to post a review of that 
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Post by: Ysclyth
Will wait until I see some for myself. But I still won't be surprised if there are some hiccups in the intial release. I do think that (at least for Grotesques and Haemonculi) Them being resin will allow me to to a little more modification to make them not look so identical.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
If a hair dryer can do that, that quickly, then hot summers in the car could potentially destroy a painted mini?
Minis on display in shop windows could become soft and malleable or simply warp over time.
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Post by: SpitfireArsonist
MeanGreenStompa wrote:If a hair dryer can do that, that quickly, then hot summers in the car could potentially destroy a painted mini?
That would suck considering in SoCal it's quite easy for temperature to get in the high 90s+ in a closed car rather quickly.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Minis on display in shop windows could become soft and malleable or simply warp over time.
This I think is a bit much though. I don't think they would get quite that hot inside a display case.
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Post by: thenoobbomb
Well, Im always happy if its plastic
Because I dont even know how to glue metal (fail)
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Post by: Vimes
thenoobbomb wrote:Well, Im always happy if its plastic
Because I dont even know how to glue metal (fail)
What? How?
It´s not really plastic though, so depending on WHY you can´t glue metal you might not be able to glue this as well.
While it´s lighter and thus does not need to be pinned plastic glue doesn´t work on it either.
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Post by: InventionThirteen
This is very interesting. I guess we can not judge the finecast until we all see it and deal with the material ourselves.
The casting seems a little strange to me. Fingers crossed they tighten their quality control...
Few things I like the sound of.
1) Paint sticks after a wash.
2) Easily cut through like butter.
3) No need to pin.
This all sounds like an advance from metal, if they get the quality correct I will purchase a model or two to paint.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The Decapitator wrote:Yup, to most they are toy soldiers. Yet when you see the amount of websites such as this which have a dedicated following of people searching for rumours of new releases of said 'Toy Soldiers', you'd be forgiven for mistaking the information was indeed state secrets.
From GW's point of view, they have invested time and money into this project and they want to release it to the world all at once, and provide all the relevant information correctly and in a controlled manner. What they don't want is people posting pictures of a couple of random models of unknown origins which may or may not be representative of the whole Finecast range, and then everyone getting upset and condemning it before they've even given it a chance.
As for the WD issue, I may have been flippant. But I think they may well have been worried that staff member A takes it home, and his friend *borrows* it and then next thing it's up on the net. I believe they are just trying to protect their investment from all sides for the reasons stated above.
And if you hadn't already guessed, I think they do have every right to, at least attempt to anyway.
The company for which I work has projects in development years in advance of when they launch. As they get closer and closer to launch, they get more exciting and interesting to users. The temptation for staff or agencies to leak info is huge. Yet leaks are very rare, despite the fact that heaps of vital info is provided twice a year at big conferences, and by the nature of the industry (video games) there is ample visual as well as written material to leak. How is this achieved? Largely because we release useful info as much as a year or two in advance of the game release. We feed the desire for info by providing materials at a graduated rate which not only discourages leaking, it feeds customers' interest and desire for the final product. This is the exact opposite of the GW approach. They've only got worse recently, moving from vague rumours to a three month lead time of vague rumours to a week's notice. In the case of Finecast this has worked against them. Instead of the first public view of the new models being a well organised, impressive display, it's a few nameless users who have got hold of early copies, and putting them on the internet without any spin control. They all look pretty terrible, and give no confidence in GW's capability to make this work.
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Post by: Gutsnagga
Fetterkey wrote:I think a lot of anti-GW trolls on Dakka have tipped their hand a little too early on this one. People are getting mad at GW over a review that concludes that their new product is "absolutely" better than the old one? Sorry if I'm not ready to break out the torches and pitchforks just yet!
I have to agree. I think that some people are just too eager to write them off.
And yet the funny thing is, they still buy their products! Seriously, pretty much everyone I have ever met who was in the hobby at some point has been mad at GW.
But if you think about it, GW have geniuses working for them. I love their games! The rules systems (Of the games I play) are incredibly well flowing, and the miniatures and concepts they think up are awesome!
Please just give them a chance. The finecast miniatures may become better yet.
Oh, and just in case you were wondering infinite_array, I am a "player".
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Post by: youbedead
SpitfireArsonist wrote:MeanGreenStompa wrote:If a hair dryer can do that, that quickly, then hot summers in the car could potentially destroy a painted mini?
That would suck considering in SoCal it's quite easy for temperature to get in the high 90s+ in a closed car rather quickly.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Minis on display in shop windows could become soft and malleable or simply warp over time.
This I think is a bit much though. I don't think they would get quite that hot inside a display case.
What about here in bloody Phoenix Arizona, cars can hit 140 in the summer. You would have you commander turn into a puddle if your not careful
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Post by: Kroothawk
Just wanted to say that I have a Finecast model in my hands with absolutely no miscast.
Lots of sprue to clean. Yes.
Too expensive. Sure.
But not a miscast. And I also prefer finecast to metal (BTW Finecost sounds like the German word for "Delikatessen" which actually is another German word for it)
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Post by: Pacific
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:... it might just be one poor example.
The OP has it before scheduled release if I understand correctly.
Early production teething troubles, who knows
It is better to hang fire and see if this is the norm, before writing off the whole show.
Anyone cares to call me a fanboy please check my previous posts.
Then again, if GW didn't play Tinker, Tailor, Toy Soldier, Spy, then we wouldn't be getting unofficial reviews that can be damaging.
Completely agree with this post. I can't imagine they would release such a low standard of product and hail it as the next big thing, it would destroy the company.
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now.
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Post by: zedmeister
Good grief. Putting aside the miscast issue, the softness and behaviour of this new material in heat is a massive no-no for me.
Can you imagine what would happen if you leave a Failcost mini in a hot car? Glass cabinet? Even a window sill? That nice and straight sword will warp and bend and be very difficult to bend back without damaging the paintwork. Also, what happens when (if?) Special Games minis are redone Failcost. Can you imagine what would happen to a stand of Epic troops? They won't be able to take a normal gaming session with out breaking or warping!
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Post by: Snord
Ignoring all the usual posturing that this issue has attracted (there are people who seem to circle around waiting for another chance to go off the deep end), I must say that this if this is typical of what Finecast will be like then it's a very poor start. Unlike, say, HBMC, I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt - I think their recent plastic kits have earned them that. But even accepting this isn't a typical example, the miscast storm bolter is appalling - I've had one FW Grot that badly miscast, and maybe 1 or two Citadel metal minis over many years (including a model that was barely more than a blob on legs). A few small bubbles and mould lines are okay, but there's simply no excuse for that kind of poor quality. Particularly given the way they've trumpeted the advantages of this material over metal. I'm still reading this change to resin as something they've had to do due to the cost the raw materials for metal, although perhaps they genuinely thought they could get the jump on the competition (I'm guessing we'll see metal wargaming models over the next few years - what they're going to use when the price of oil heads north again I don't know). I think GW should have gone all out to ensure that the quality of these releases matched their hype. Now, the entrenched critics have more ammunition, and many of us who were prepared to give Finecast the benefit of the doubt are inclined to agree with the critics (and agree that putting the price up for what now appear to be poorer quality models is unjustifiable). The softness of the material looks like it might be a positive thing. I don't think GW can really be criticised if that makes it harder to strip models for the 2nd hand market. However, I do wonder about their resistance to normal extremes of temperature (cheap plastic kits have been known to warp in hot weather). And long thin components were always a problem in metal, as they were fragile and prone to bending - it sounds as though it's still better to replace that sort of thing. It's the miscasting that's the issue, and I'm prepared to accept even at this stage that GW have dropped the ball on this.
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Post by: The Decapitator
Finecast resin is very slightly pourus, which helps very much so with the assembly. If you add super glue to each join it will very slightly absorbed into the resin creating a very strong bond.
However, it's this ability which also makes it very easy to paint, ad the paint takes to the model really well. BUT! It is going to be pretty much impossible to remove paint from models without causing a horrendous amount of damage, and so is something I wouldn't advise.
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Post by: Phototoxin
Kroothawk wrote:And I also prefer finecast to metal (BTW Finecost sounds like the German word for "Delikatessen" which actually is another German word for it)
Ich bin ein Finecaster.
I will test it out... I'm tempted to buy lemartes AGAIN (well I got him for £8 online..) and do a direct comparison.. I would have to re-convert him but oh-well...
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Post by: yakface
Hmmm 'Failcost' now? First it was 'Finecost' or 'Failcast', but now they've been combined into a word which now shares no similarities with the actual product...fantastic! I suggest we take it even further and choose a completely random word to describe this miniature line. Fzorgle perhaps? Or why stop there, let's use a whole SERIES of words to describe it. How about CRASSUS ARMORED TRANSPORT?
Sorry couldn't resist.
Anyway, given that finecast models are short in supply and being rushed as fast as possible to retailers to fill the holes in the miniature lines, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that initially there are more miscasts. I would expect that once stocks have been properly replenished and production of the miniatures reverts to its standard levels that you'd hope for a drop in the number of defective minis produced...not to mention that experience with the casting material can only help as time goes on as well.
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Post by: filbert
Part of me wonders why GW have chosen to release this range in a 'Big Bang' method instead of staggering the release to allow both their stock and supply methods to get up to speed and to allow for vagaries of casting to be ironed out.
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Post by: Delephont
It seems to me that a number of people want nothing more than for GW to fall flat on it's face with their new Finecast range.
I'm no fan of GW, and have moved on, so whether Finecast rules or fails is no skin off my nose. GW usually has a great returns policy (no one can take that away from them) so even if people get miscast stuff, they just need to return it and get a better one.
I think, like all new products to market, there will be teething problems....but it's nothing to go mad about. I think all this madness shows that people haven't really gotten over their "affair" with GW yet.
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Post by: SpitfireArsonist
yakface wrote:
Hmmm 'Failcost' now? First it was 'Finecost' or 'Failcast', but now they've been combined into a word which now shares no similarities with the actual product...fantastic!
Oh man, I almost spit out my coffee...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
filbert wrote:Part of me wonders why GW have chosen to release this range in a 'Big Bang' method instead of staggering the release to allow both their stock and supply methods to get up to speed and to allow for vagaries of casting to be ironed out.
The conventional response would be that GW are incompetent.
I can't believe GW are so incompetent as to release badly flawed models as a majority of the first wave. It would destroy their credibility. I suggested that people had cherry picked bad examples. OTOH the Chaplain (?) reviewed by Legion at the start of this thread is not as good as GW make out. There are noticeable flash and mould lines, and warping of some parts.
Productivity typically improves by 20% in the first three months of a new process. We can expect to see the proportion of miscasts drop. The worries about heat sensitivity and other aspects of the material will emerge through experience. Our own skills as modellers will also have to be partly relearnt to deal with the new material.
I'm going to take a built metal Zoanthrope and an unbuilt one and compare them with the Finecast model in the shop, to get a hands on view about the detail, bendiness and so on.
I don't think I need any models likely to be release in Finecast though.
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Post by: Drachii
yakface wrote:Or why stop there, let's use a whole SERIES of words to describe it. How about CRASSUS ARMORED TRANSPORT?
Oh god giggles. The naming HAS got a bit silly. 'Finecost' was the best mock-name so far. Simple, but effective!
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Post by: nerdfest09
Why does the word 'Fzorgle' in yakface's post come up with 'lash of submission' when you scroll over it? :-) strange or the whim of chaos?
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Post by: BrookM
Yup, some miscasts at the FLGS. Nothing too severe but for the price asked we expect better.
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Post by: spaceelf
It is sad to see that so many miscast models have turned up in reviews. Hopefully these miniatures are not indicative of the line as a whole. It may have been a huge mistake for GW to introduce failcost with their most popular miniatures.
Like a previous poster I am concerned that it may be difficult to strip paint off the new resins. This would certainly change the secondary market. Melting in higher temperatures is another issue that concerns me. Hopefully we will have more information on these things this weekend.
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Post by: whitedragon
yakface wrote:
Hmmm 'Failcost' now? First it was 'Finecost' or 'Failcast', but now they've been combined into a word which now shares no similarities with the actual product...fantastic! I suggest we take it even further and choose a completely random word to describe this miniature line. Fzorgle perhaps? Or why stop there, let's use a whole SERIES of words to describe it. How about CRASSUS ARMORED TRANSPORT?
Sorry couldn't resist.
Anyway, given that finecast models are short in supply and being rushed as fast as possible to retailers to fill the holes in the miniature lines, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that initially there are more miscasts. I would expect that once stocks have been properly replenished and production of the miniatures reverts to its standard levels that you'd hope for a drop in the number of defective minis produced...not to mention that experience with the casting material can only help as time goes on as well.
Do you think they rushed them out in their own CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS? Did they Fzorgle the factory workers to make then cast faster?
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Post by: Hits_the_spot
Just had a little read through this thread after hearing about some real hating going on toward GW (again), and so like many had to get my 2 pence worth in.
It seems everyone is giving GW a bashing for changing over to resin, (and of course knocking the prices up a bit) BUT.... In my experience, resin does give sharper details, maybe not 'more', but defiantly sharper, making nicer looking models when painted up.
And don't forget just how much better resin is to tweak/model and work with.
As for the price hike, iv only got a rough idea, (Economics was pact of my Bsc Hons degree) but if you take a look at GW GDP its not much, they may just want to improve profits a little more to pay for an expected deficit of some kind. Also being that they are a UK company, they are most likely suffering from the high rate of inflation we are experiencing over here, compounding the price and production cost vs profit problem.
I for one am happy they are making the change, every since i bought my first resin mini from FW, i thought.... 'why cant GW do this'. And yes (before the FW hates drop in) i know that they aren't perfect either. But for any minor flaws iv had with any of GW's or FW's stuff they have always sent out replacements for free.
Lets just see how it pans out. As its been said before in this thread, any major change in a production method with encounter problems to begin with. But be honest, resin really does have more positives over soft metals in the long run doesn't it.
Anyways, there my little speech, haters begin.
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Post by: Hellfury
nerdfest09 wrote:Why does the word 'Fzorgle' in yakface's post come up with 'lash of submission' when you scroll over it? :-) strange or the whim of chaos?
From the beautiful mind of Triggerbaby did this meme come into existence:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/179282.page#180065
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Post by: carmachu
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:... it might just be one poor example.
The OP has it before scheduled release if I understand correctly.
Early production teething troubles, who knows
It is better to hang fire and see if this is the norm, before writing off the whole show.
See, i could buy that logic if it was sprues gotten on the side, from production or ones loose in a black box.
But this is models packaged up, ready to go on the shelves and racks. In a week or so that blister would BE on the shelf.
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Post by: whitedragon
Indeed, I miss him and Nyarly....:(
26
Post by: carmachu
Adam LongWalker wrote:There is one other thing that I am concerned with. If the material is as soft as what people are saying. Down the road, how do you strip those fine cast models? If you can't use files on them because you can damage them, what tools that you need do you scrub them down and remove the paint material on them? What chemicals will you use on this soft material?
You do know you can strip paint off resin right? Dawn power dissolve and purple power can do so, with minium scrubbing.....dont see a difference for a resin/plastic hybrid.
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Post by: NAVARRO
You know the accusations, your a hater, your a apologist, is getting outofcontroll... would be nice if people concentrate on the topic rather than bashing other users just because they can...
Its so much these days that even sometimes I get dragged into those pointless discussions.
As for reviews the images speak for themselves here, but we do have to remind ourselves that this is just a very small prespective of the product and possibly does not reflect the full reality.
I really hope they stay away from FW casting standarts and try to cast things with more care.
AS for resin vs metal I think it should be said both are diferent and both have pros and cons and we individually have to decide wich one is better for the destination we are going to give that particular miniature... I think metals are the best compromise for gamming miniatures and resins for painters and more experienced hobby persons, but thats just me.
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Post by: gremmie0
This just makes me worried for internet sales, shipping back a miscast 5 times is going to get tedious.
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Post by: KingCracker
The amount of whiny babies in this thread is staggering. You guys ALMOST sucked me in with your super emo crying...almost. And even some of those INCREDIBLY negative reviewers that own their own websites added to my almost agreeing with you lot. Sadly I did not. Im not a big GW fanboy, yes they do things that just piss me off and leave me scratching my head. Ill wait to see for my self how the finecast thing pans out. Im a plastics fan anyways, and like others have mostly done my thing with converted plastic parts from the get go. But I have made conversions with metal so Im pretty familiar with the GW standard. Ive never messed with resin so eventually Ill have to jump into that one. The only thing I have seen on ALL the minis so far is flash/mold lines like crazy. So Ill deal with that when I get there
I think most of you guys need to buy some damn tissues, take a shower to cool off and grow the feth up. If the finecast line fails so what, HOPEFULLY GW learns its lesson and wont screw up so badly next time. I doubt itll go that far though. They have done awesome on other ventuers. APOC was a gamble for them, and we simply cant get enough of the giant tanks/stompas/titans and every army redue they have done lately has been simply fantastic looking. Who wants to really try and argue that the DE resculpts are anything but awesome? Go ahead and try, Ill mail you a fist in the mouth for trying to look cool on da interwebz.
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Post by: Hellfury
KingCracker wrote:Go ahead and try, Ill mail you a fist in the mouth for trying to look cool on da interwebz.
I hear that there is a cottage pr0n industry for such pics.
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Post by: carmachu
Fetterkey wrote:
Oh yeah? It's literally the thread you're posting in right now.
legion4500 wrote:Do i think a price jump is needed? NOPE. Do I like the finecast more then metal. Absolutely!!!
How is it better, with the miscasts in that one mini AND a staff he couldnt straighten with either heat or cold?
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Post by: Capt. Rex
The resin replacing the metal might not be such a bad thing for conversions.
Though I did try to convert a metal Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer with Force Sword once...with a hammer and chisel!
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Post by: whitedragon
carmachu wrote:Fetterkey wrote:
Oh yeah? It's literally the thread you're posting in right now.
legion4500 wrote:Do i think a price jump is needed? NOPE. Do I like the finecast more then metal. Absolutely!!!
How is it better, with the miscasts in that one mini AND a staff he couldnt straighten with either heat or cold?
Read OP again:
NEWSFLASH:
I heated the staff with my girlfriend's blowdryer. It only took ten seconds for the staff to go from flexable to cooked spagetti soft. The staff went limp as soon as i picked off the desk to move to a plate. This requires extreme care. The resin stuff got mushy real quick. Weird. placed in freezer for 5 minutes. Staff is now straight. Foreworld resin will fight like a bastard to get soft, and even then it is brittle when bent. Not a good sign.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Everybody saying anything at all about resin needs to recognise that there are different kinds of resin, with varying physical characteristics.
Any experience you have with polyurethane resin as used by other companies is not necessarily valid with this new material.
Some things could be worse while other things could be better than metal, polystyrene or polyurethane.
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Post by: pretre
carmachu wrote:
How is it better, with the miscasts in that one mini AND a staff he couldnt straighten with either heat or cold?
Reread the first post. He edited it to say that he was able to straighten the staff.
60
Post by: yakface
I still think THE biggest problem GW has its inability or reluctance to communicate openly with its customers.
I mean, how much less vitriol do you think they would get if they had a press release like this, regardless of how true any of this actually was?
(And yes, this is obviously a complete work of fiction):
To Our Valued Customers
In the upcoming weeks we will begin to remove all of our existing metal models from our miniatures line in preparation for something both exciting and a little scary: Our new line of plastic/resin hybrid models called Citadel Finecast!
Why are you no longer using metal?
All of us here at the Games Workshop family have been painting and playing with metal models since we were young, and since some of the very earliest days we have been producing metal models via the Citadel Miniatures line. In many ways therefore, this transition is a bit of a sad one for us, but as they say, all good things must come to an end!
The truth is, the price of raw materials for metal models has been steadily increasing in recent years, and worse these costs sometimes spike heavily in short periods of time. These spikes can cause a tremendous hardship on the overall operations of our business, which is part of the reason our metal model prices have been set so high. We basically have to protect ourselves just in case such a spike hits and lasts for an extended period.
In comparison, the raw costs for the materials to make resin/plastic are much more stable (and tend to be cheaper), which means that in order to make sure our company continues to grow and prosper it was only a matter of time before we had to make this shift. We figure its better to make this tough change under our own terms now instead of being rushed to make the change in the future when the raw metal costs dramatically rise again.
What will the new plastic/resin be like?
While we'll all certainly miss some of the benefits of working with metal models, I think you'll find that there are a whole lot of positives with our new Finecast material as well. First off, we are using a different material for the Finecast range then is used by our Forgeworld division, which we have done for a number of reasons:
1) It is completely non-toxic and does not require any additional safety precautions compared with preparing metal models.
2) It has a make-up that allows us to cast models using a process that is much more conducive to mass castings than the standard resin moulds used by Forgeworld.
3) It is much more durable than traditional resin models.
In fact, we've been able to use our existing master models and make new Finecast moulds off of them. In many cases, the material produces slightly finer levels of detail and crispness (hence the name Finecast) then were previously available in metal. In other words, some of our classic models will look better then they ever have!
Of course, once our design team starts to master the nuances of sculpting specifically for the Finecast medium, we fully expect to see some the best miniatures we've ever made produced.
So why are the models so expensive?
You're probably wondering why, if the raw costs to make Finecast are less than those to make metal models, are the prices of the models going to be cheaper? While we would love nothing more than to tell you that was the case, but unfortunately it isn't. In nearly all cases, the prices of Finecast models are going to match what the model cost when it was metal or more.
I know this is a tough thing to swallow, but there is a good reason. Games Workshop has been committed for years to making games that are comprised nearly entirely of plastic models. In almost every case, you, our valued customers have let us know that this is the direction you want to go. You want MORE plastics for every army we make. We have taken this concept to heart and we have continually poured money into bringing out more, more, more plastics. And we know that eventually we will get to that a point where nearly every model in our all of miniature lines is indeed plastic.
Unfortunately, the costs for producing plastic kits at the rate we have been releasing them is high. We have a fantastic team of designers, artists, production crew, sales staff, etc, but keeping these quality people obviously costs money. In addition, we are proud that the vast majority of the labor used to make our products comes from the UK, which again costs us more than if we shipped our labor costs overseas.
The result of all this is that we have had to set our prices high enough to ensure we can continue this forward growth. We know that the prices of our models make it very difficult for some to afford our games and we do apologize. However, we hope that you can see the value in the money we spend towards the massive amount of plastic kits we continue to release and the awesome designs and artistry our talented team infuse our worlds with.
As the raw costs to make Finecast are cheaper than making metal models, by keeping the prices the same (or raising them slightly), this ensures we will continue to have enough money in our company to keep this kind of forward momentum going and the stability of the Finecast raw costs will hopefully ensure that we don't have to raise our prices again anytime in the near future.
How will the transition work?
As indicated above, in the next few weeks our existing stock of metal miniatures will be pulled from shops and sent back to us. If you are die-hard lover of metal models, then now's the time to run out and start buying!
On Saturday May 28th, the first Citadel Finecast models will go on sale. Initially we will be offering about 100 models in the Finecast range, with more to be added periodically. However, in some cases we've found that certain metal models do not transition well into the new Finecast material. In such cases, we will continue to sell the metal versions of the model for a limited time, but eventually these models will have to be phased out of production. Take a look at the included spreadsheet for the list of these models. Again we apologize, but we just don't have the resources to resculpt all of these models without affecting our upcoming release schedules. The only thing we can suggest if you're a fan of these models is to buy them while you can!
Also remember that while we've been working with resin via Forgeworld for a while, this is a whole new type of material for us. That means we're going to have to go through a little bit of growing pains. The entire Finecast range will be packaged in clear plastic, allowing you to thoroughly examine the model before you buy it from a store. In the off chance that you do encounter a miscast model, you can always return it to the store your purchased it from for a replacement model. If you purchased the model online and it is miscast, please call our customer service specialists immediately. When we launch the Finecast range next month, we will have a dedicated team available to ensure that, one way or another, you the best possible miniatures we can make.
Let's see the models already!
But enough of the doom and gloom, let's get onto to the good stuff.
Included below are a few sneak peak pictures from the new Finecast range that will be rolling out in the next few months (starting May 28th). We think they really show off some of the positive things the new material can accomplish on classic models...and perhaps if you look closely you might spot a shot of something brand new coming down the pipe!
Ah, if only we lived in that dream world!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The bad reaction of consumers to previous GW publicity seems to have convinced them that, if anything, total secrecy is the way forwards.
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Post by: Hellfury
Kilkrazy wrote:The bad reaction of consumers to previous GW publicity seems to have convinced them that, if anything, total secrecy is the way forwards.
I can't blame them. Lately they seem singularly incapable of communicating with their customers in anything other than a condescending tone (Re: Standard bearer articles, etc) when not gushing over their own products in an advertising fashion.
Frankly, I prefer the silence as opposed to the condescension.
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Post by: Xarian
Can someone do a heat test to see if the Finecast models will melt at various temperatures?
75F / 24C : warm day
100F / 38C : hot day
130F / 54.5C : models left in the car on a hot day
( http://www.mydogiscool.com/x_car_study.php)
No point in buying the models if they melt at 38C. Even at 55C it's questionable.
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Post by: AvatarForm
Hellfury wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:The bad reaction of consumers to previous GW publicity seems to have convinced them that, if anything, total secrecy is the way forwards.
I can't blame them. Lately they seem singularly incapable of communicating with their customers in anything other than a condescending tone (Re: Standard bearer articles, etc) when not gushing over their own products in an advertising fashion.
Frankly, I prefer the silence as opposed to the condescension.
I would expect that engaging a percentage of your intended audience and using constructive feedback to further improve your process and products would be a good thing.
Apparently GW doesnt enjoy good strategy... or sane business models.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
You do know you can strip paint off resin right? Dawn power dissolve and purple power can do so, with minium scrubbing.....dont see a difference for a resin/plastic hybrid.
Yes I have stripped resin plenty of times but we do not know the chemical properties of the new material yet. Will current stripping procedures work with this new product?. I really do not think so.
All we know that it is Softer than resin/plastic/metal.
We know that it is easily damaged by use of file from the current reports being distributed in the interwebs.
We know that it is easily bendable via by use of heat.
Presently my current belief (by all reports so far) is that this product is designed to replace all other forms of materials currently used by GW and it will be done in the near future.
I think Fine cast is their first trial of a new material in order to remove second sellers of their models from Ebay/or other venues.
Because if you Can NOT easily remove paint from this material, you can't really sell your models ( you can but I think at a much lower price because of this disadvantage to stripping the material).
A one shot sale to their customer base. Something that Games Workshop would do, considering their reputation of late.
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Post by: agnosto
So those of us that are not experts will just have to return any warped figs because, with metal you could just bend it but this stuff doesn't sound like it'll bend.
My idea of fun is not dealing with poor workmanship and dodgy quality control; this is exactly the reason I've never bought from forgeworld.
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Post by: Slinky
Yes - something similar to that would have blunted a lot of the ire, I think.
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Post by: NiallCampbell
Well I for one am at least going to give a model or two a try and see how I find it...had to wade through 6 pages to see it but I think only Ph3AR (sorry if I misspelled your handle) pointed out that if he/she bought something and it was miscast then he/she would complain and get a replacement... to me this seems the easiest way round the potential casting issue.
I for one will probably be asking for my selected blister to be opened in store, and if damaged/miscast I will pick another, and another until I'm satisfied. Quite frankly if the casts are bad enough that I have to open more than one then I think the GW staff member should be suitably ashamed anyway.
On topic - I do like the detail on that librarian...looking forward to a painted pic to see side-by-side results!
...I don't think we have much say in the machine that is GW anyway...I mean the debacle with the paint pot lids should have illustrated by now that they haven't come up with a decent way to do that yet never mind price/manufacture minis en masse correctly hehe.
You all know you're going to continue to buy GW procuts either direct or second hand so like it or lump it, they'll keep making money Hehe may aswell just suck it up and enjoy the hobby as much as poss!
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Post by: Delephont
While Yakface's dream speech would have solved the issues of the introduction of Finecast, it would take a lot more to deal with the trade restriction issue, or the proposed YoY price rise that GW has already planned in.
YoY price rise, regardless of what world economies are doing....yikes....
Anyway, the dream speech was nice, well written and if anyone from GW marketing is readin this, it would be wise to consder something like that in the future.
Good luck and goodbye
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Post by: smudgethekat
I guess I'll go an look for myself. If I see a decent Helbrecht I'll get it, if I don't... well I'll just have to wait and see.
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Post by: ProtoClone
Well, looking at the first examples of Finecast I can see the problems and I know they are not too bad...but being the neurotic mess I am, I wouldn't be able to deal with what I have seen. It all seems like little things, but those little thing would make me dissect every single mini beyond that first one.
IMHO: We, as people, like to see success fail. More so, we like to see the arrogant fail. When GW went out and said they were going to become better and have the best resin models out there, something in side of us all said "We'll be the judge of that". GW took a big jump with moving to resin, amongst other recent things, and when you make such a big jump you want to land on all fours. But they didn't and we waited here just so we could point out how they didn't. It isn't wrong that we have and still are pointing how they didn't, I just think it is human nature to do so. Schadenfreude.
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Post by: Necros
Kinda disappointed seeing those big air bubbles but I guess there's going to be growing pains. I just hope it's just some early issues that they'll iron out sooner rather than later and enforce some real quality control.
I'm thinking about picking up a finecast hive tyrant but now I'm a little hesitant.. I spent way to much on goblins this month and I'm tapped out anyway.
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Post by: Delephont
Somthing else to bear in mind, even though people "complain" about FW, have they actually doen anything to improve their quality? I don't think so, but maybe others think otherwise.
My point is this, even though there may well be obvious issues with Finecast, I wonder if GW would actually do anything to improve the product.
Isn't it going to be the same response people expect to recieve regarding complaints about their policies? Won't it be a case of, as long as theFinecast minis sell, we don't have to bother improving our processes.....I wonder.
I'm not suggesting that Finecast will be a complete fail, but given GWs past record of customer communication, I can imagine a lot of GW corporate heads buried in piles of sand.....and again, the only way to actually bring about change will be with closed wallets and fully populated shelves.
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Post by: pretre
Wow. I just saw GW's newest pic of Finecast and I have to say I am impressed with the detail. I don't see any miscasts either.
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Post by: filbert
It was mentioned earlier that any miscast will probably be subject to a similar return/replace policy as FW. Now, this is all well and good for FW which doesn't have the same volume of sales as GW but what happens should large quantities of Finecast need to be replaced? Will GW impose further price rises as a sort of 'tax' to try and claw back some of the cost of replacing damaged stock? I hope not...
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Post by: Saldiven
Varrick wrote: Nice bit about the hair dryer. I probably would have cut it in half at the bend, inserted a needle or pin, and hoped that fixed it.
Might wait to get a commissar until they work out the kinks.
Edit: if i get a free one for miss cast model i will purposely BUY the miscast one and deal with it.
Deal with it.
This actually worried me. If a few minutes under a hair dryer can make a piece "spaghetti" like, then what will happen if you leave your carry case full of minis in your car on a hot summer's day?
Sounds like we better be sure not to make that mistake, huh? Glad I'm aware ahead of time, because I've been known to leave my minis in my car for weeks at a time.
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Post by: Balance
filbert wrote:It was mentioned earlier that any miscast will probably be subject to a similar return/replace policy as FW. Now, this is all well and good for FW which doesn't have the same volume of sales as GW but what happens should large quantities of Finecast need to be replaced? Will GW impose further price rises as a sort of 'tax' to try and claw back some of the cost of replacing damaged stock? I hope not...
GW's replacement policy has often been very generous... Call up for a bad sprue, they send out a replacement kit. Not a huge change here, I'd guess.
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Post by: filbert
Balance wrote:filbert wrote:It was mentioned earlier that any miscast will probably be subject to a similar return/replace policy as FW. Now, this is all well and good for FW which doesn't have the same volume of sales as GW but what happens should large quantities of Finecast need to be replaced? Will GW impose further price rises as a sort of 'tax' to try and claw back some of the cost of replacing damaged stock? I hope not...
GW's replacement policy has often been very generous... Call up for a bad sprue, they send out a replacement kit. Not a huge change here, I'd guess.
Which is fine for the odd sprue here or there - I'm questioning what would happen should they need to replace entire blisters in larger quantities...
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Post by: Darth Bob
Saldiven wrote:
. . . what will happen if you leave your carry case full of minis in your car on a hot summer's day?
That tends to be a bad idea in general. I've seen plastic models get warped from being left in cars during hot summer days, not to mention paint chips off/rubs off metal more easily if it's been left in the heat for too long.
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Post by: mikhaila
filbert wrote:Balance wrote:filbert wrote:It was mentioned earlier that any miscast will probably be subject to a similar return/replace policy as FW. Now, this is all well and good for FW which doesn't have the same volume of sales as GW but what happens should large quantities of Finecast need to be replaced? Will GW impose further price rises as a sort of 'tax' to try and claw back some of the cost of replacing damaged stock? I hope not...
GW's replacement policy has often been very generous... Call up for a bad sprue, they send out a replacement kit. Not a huge change here, I'd guess.
Which is fine for the odd sprue here or there - I'm questioning what would happen should they need to replace entire blisters in larger quantities...
Probably the same thing. Just replace them. In the past there have been problems with large amounts of a run, or with high priced models. They've never hesitated to replace the models and fix the problems.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Saldiven wrote:Varrick wrote: Nice bit about the hair dryer. I probably would have cut it in half at the bend, inserted a needle or pin, and hoped that fixed it.
Might wait to get a commissar until they work out the kinks.
Edit: if i get a free one for miss cast model i will purposely BUY the miscast one and deal with it.
Deal with it.
This actually worried me. If a few minutes under a hair dryer can make a piece "spaghetti" like, then what will happen if you leave your carry case full of minis in your car on a hot summer's day?
Sounds like we better be sure not to make that mistake, huh? Glad I'm aware ahead of time, because I've been known to leave my minis in my car for weeks at a time.
It's all part of GW's customer service to reduce the number of thefts of armies from cars.
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Post by: blasto0341
Wow, this is funny seeing all this flak about Finecast. If it has a miscast, do one of two things A: take it back get a new one. B: Do A and get your money back, then never buy GW again. Don't get butthurt and go nerdrage on a forum. But yet these people flame GW for some small flaws in a resin minature. Look at Forgeworld, they have flaws also but they are still top notch. If you were to buy a TV and say the power button was missing, would you go post on a TV forum about that brand being total crap? No, you would just take it back. It's simple, don't get into a modeling hobby if you can fix your toy army men. Out of all my ork squiggoths from Forgeworld pieces of chains were jacked up, but hey they sell this stuff call epoxy putty, it works quite well. I'm surprised there isn't a thread raging about how GW miniatures aren't painted when you open the box.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, why the @#$% would you store miniatures in a hot car then whine about finecast melting? Are you on meds????
43848
Post by: nectarprime
blasto0341 wrote:Wow, this is funny seeing all this flak about Finecast. If it has a miscast, do one of two things A: take it back get a new one. B: Do A and get your money back, then never buy GW again. Don't get butthurt and go nerdrage on a forum. But yet these people flame GW for some small flaws in a resin minature. Look at Forgeworld, they have flaws also but they are still top notch. If you were to buy a TV and say the power button was missing, would you go post on a TV forum about that brand being total crap? No, you would just take it back. It's simple, don't get into a modeling hobby if you can fix your toy army men. Out of all my ork squiggoths from Forgeworld pieces of chains were jacked up, but hey they sell this stuff call epoxy putty, it works quite well. I'm surprised there isn't a thread raging about how GW miniatures aren't painted when you open the box.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, why the @#$% would you store miniatures in a hot car then whine about finecast melting? Are you on meds????
I understand where you are coming from. Yes, it's easy to get a replacement, but that's not the point. You shouldn't have to FIX something that's brand new. It should not be sold with defects in the first place. All it would take is one guy looking over the sprues as they come from production.
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Post by: Slipstream
I'm sorry guys they are charging a small fortune for these 'quality' figures, they should be flawless. Even if they are one offs at the moment what the hell happened to quality control? Why waste packaging on a failed cast? Also remember FW are not very good either and they have been working with resin for years. A set of Crimson fist land raider doors that I got just after Christmas were very very substandard. The tops of the doors had big air bubbles which took a lot of green stuff to fill and smaller icons had not even formed right either. The most telling thing with this 'finecast' was the warped sprue, without looking at the model my alarm bells were ringing. When you get down to it resin casting is not that difficult. I worked for a giftware company making resin minis, using a very very basic vaccuum chamber. 99% of castings were fault free and you know what I did with the duff ones? In the bucket. This is where this one belongs.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
blasto0341 wrote:
Oh yeah, why the @#$% would you store miniatures in a hot car then whine about finecast melting? Are you on meds????
Some people work full time and only have time to game after work. Logically storing your army in the car is a sensible plan than walking in full geek mode around the office.
Some of these working people live in places where it gets quite hot.
Heat. Plus Car.
I can understand the concern about the finecast stuff melting so easily - sometimes it just gets hot in general - if my minis start to droop because of a warm spell in the summer it's not a good sign.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The reason why people are "getting butthurt and nerdraging" is;
1. GW said that Finecast is the biggest advance in model soldiers since this...
Some people said it isn't.
2. A lot of people said it was going awesome so stop being butthurt and nerdraging if you don't think so.
3. LOOK!
And that is the reason why.
40530
Post by: blasto0341
How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
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Post by: filbert
blasto0341 wrote:How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
I haven't ever had to return anything to a store, unless you count clothing which I either didn't like or didn't fit. I have never bought a product that didn't work or was broken but then again that's pretty much par for the course. To quote your analogy, if people had to start returning TVs because they were missing power buttons, then that company would swiftly gain a reputation for inferior quality.
40530
Post by: blasto0341
Slipstream wrote:I'm sorry guys they are charging a small fortune for these 'quality' figures, they should be flawless. Even if they are one offs at the moment what the hell happened to quality control? Why waste packaging on a failed cast? Also remember FW are not very good either and they have been working with resin for years. A set of Crimson fist land raider doors that I got just after Christmas were very very substandard. The tops of the doors had big air bubbles which took a lot of green stuff to fill and smaller icons had not even formed right either. The most telling thing with this 'finecast' was the warped sprue, without looking at the model my alarm bells were ringing. When you get down to it resin casting is not that difficult. I worked for a giftware company making resin minis, using a very very basic vaccuum chamber. 99% of castings were fault free and you know what I did with the duff ones? In the bucket. This is where this one belongs.
Obiviously GW has missed out on hiring you as their main over seeing chief of production.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
blasto0341 wrote:How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
A product being pushed as heavily as Finecast should have a bit more quality control really. If this is their finest quality material with super-detailed results then you'd think they'd put a bit more effort into some of it.
So far the miscasts seen or heard about have been quite severe - not repairable minor defects but whole parts deformed. Not the best way to start a line off.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
@blast0
There is no need to get personal or sarcastic to help establish your point to another user. In fact, it will likely have quite the opposite affect on him.
40530
Post by: blasto0341
Simple fix, don't buy GW then lol. Pick up some sculpting tools and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if some small bubbles and "having to return" an item is ruining your hobby well it's time to find a new one. Hahaha, people whine about GW and STILL buy from them. WTF?!? why oh why I ask!!!!?!?!?!
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Post by: SilverMK2
According to a post on GW's facebook page by GW they will be putting up a list of all the models being "finecast" at midnight (GMT) tonight.
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Post by: Slipstream
At least blasto0341 you'd get:
1) A decent casting!
2) A decent price!
I'm not boasting, honest. I worked with resin for 14years and have casted probably over 100,000 miniatures with the most basic of setup. It really isn't that hard to do. It is smelly and dusty and I've probably knocked a few years of my lifespan(styrene is lethal!). I also know that the more you cast the cheaper it becomes, not more expensive.
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Post by: nectarprime
DarkStarSabre wrote:blasto0341 wrote:
Oh yeah, why the @#$% would you store miniatures in a hot car then whine about finecast melting? Are you on meds????
Some people work full time and only have time to game after work. Logically storing your army in the car is a sensible plan than walking in full geek mode around the office.
Some of these working people live in places where it gets quite hot.
Heat. Plus Car.
I can understand the concern about the finecast stuff melting so easily - sometimes it just gets hot in general - if my minis start to droop because of a warm spell in the summer it's not a good sign.
I live in Washington and still I would never store my army in my car. I would just take it into my office. Why wouldn't anybody else? Embarrassed? Does your army box or bag say "NERD HOBBY SUPPLIES" on it or something?
18410
Post by: filbert
blasto0341 wrote:Simple fix, don't buy GW then lol. Pick up some sculpting tools and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if some small bubbles and "having to return" an item is ruining your hobby well it's time to find a new one. Hahaha, people whine about GW and STILL buy from them. WTF?!? why oh why I ask!!!!?!?!?!
Not sure where anyone noted that miscasts were 'ruining their hobby' and I'm not sure where you think all this rage is coming from. All I have seen thus far about Finecast have been some legitimate concerns given the pictorial evidence we have seen thus far. Whether those concerns are borne out in the long run remains to be seen. As to acting on those concerns, well that's kind of what the debate is turning to; the fact is that if such miscasts are prevalent then people will stop buying GW, as a significant drop in quality versus price would affect any business.
You need to calm down a bit, think about what you are saying and perhaps try and engage people a little more politely if you really want people to not write off your points at face value.
40530
Post by: blasto0341
DarkStarSabre wrote:blasto0341 wrote:How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
A product being pushed as heavily as Finecast should have a bit more quality control really. If this is their finest quality material with super-detailed results then you'd think they'd put a bit more effort into some of it.
So far the miscasts seen or heard about have been quite severe - not repairable minor defects but whole parts deformed. Not the best way to start a line off.
C'mon man, how can you blame GW, are you at the factory seeing that they don't have this quality control? I bet all my orks they have it, but the jackass doing the job missed some. Are you really smashing GW and not the lazy workers who have jobs to look at a conveuyer belt full of plastic army men waiting for a mistake to roll by? That is more likely than GW dropping the ball on their biggest release so far.
44067
Post by: DarkStarSabre
blasto0341 wrote:Pick up some sculpting tools and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if some small bubbles and "having to return" an item is ruining your hobby well it's time to find a new one. Hahaha, people whine about GW and STILL buy from them. WTF?!? why oh why I ask!!!!?!?!?!
blasto.
Look at the VERY first page of this thread.
Look at that Storm Bolter.
Tell me that is not a concern. The top half is sheared off and deformed. Say what you will about metal but I have never seen it turn out that bad.
12893
Post by: evilsponge
The OP wasn't reviewing GW's generous return policy
43848
Post by: nectarprime
blasto0341 wrote:DarkStarSabre wrote:blasto0341 wrote:How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
A product being pushed as heavily as Finecast should have a bit more quality control really. If this is their finest quality material with super-detailed results then you'd think they'd put a bit more effort into some of it.
So far the miscasts seen or heard about have been quite severe - not repairable minor defects but whole parts deformed. Not the best way to start a line off.
C'mon man, how can you blame GW, are you at the factory seeing that they don't have this quality control? I bet all my orks they have it, but the jackass doing the job missed some. Are you really smashing GW and not the lazy workers who have jobs to look at a conveuyer belt full of plastic army men waiting for a mistake to roll by? That is more likely than GW dropping the ball on their biggest release so far.
Uh how can you blame GW if their employees aren't doing their job? Is this a serious question? Of course they are to blame, they produce it, and they manage their workers and are supposed to make sure they are making a quality product and checking for defects.
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Post by: Saldiven
Darth Bob wrote:Saldiven wrote:
. . . what will happen if you leave your carry case full of minis in your car on a hot summer's day?
That tends to be a bad idea in general. I've seen plastic models get warped from being left in cars during hot summer days, not to mention paint chips off/rubs off metal more easily if it's been left in the heat for too long.
This is a lot different than pieces obtaining the flexibility of "spaghetti." Seriously, I've had my DE army in the trunk of my car pretty much constantly for about 5 years. I do have some pieces that have warped on the plastics, but not that significantly. I've never had them hot enough that I could deform the models with my hands.
If a hair dryer can get a Finecast model piece so flexible in only "ten seconds" that you need "extreme care" due to how "mushy" the piece gets, I could envision pulling your carrying case out of your trunk in the middle of July to find a bunch of unrecognizable lumps where your models were. (The quotes are terms used by the OP when describing his experiences while using his girlfriend's hair dryer on the model.)
My only point is this: Keep your Finecast models in a climate controlled area, just to be safe.
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Post by: blasto0341
Calm... I am calm, I am actually LMAO over here. The finecast stuff has not even been released yet hahaha. Yet, everyone seems to have semi busted finecast. Seems to me the reason they have miscast ones or w/e are because they got them second hand as they were most likely thrown away to be disposed of. I could be wrong, but as I read it says they are to be released on Saturday. I also am not being sarcastic, c'mon people it's common sense, you buy hundreds of dollars worth of plastic army men and leave them in hot storage areas? Also boasting about how easy it is to cast resin, well I have done it and it is not that easy.
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Post by: sharkticon
blasto0341 wrote:DarkStarSabre wrote:blasto0341 wrote:How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
A product being pushed as heavily as Finecast should have a bit more quality control really. If this is their finest quality material with super-detailed results then you'd think they'd put a bit more effort into some of it.
So far the miscasts seen or heard about have been quite severe - not repairable minor defects but whole parts deformed. Not the best way to start a line off.
C'mon man, how can you blame GW, are you at the factory seeing that they don't have this quality control? I bet all my orks they have it, but the jackass doing the job missed some. Are you really smashing GW and not the lazy workers who have jobs to look at a conveuyer belt full of plastic army men waiting for a mistake to roll by? That is more likely than GW dropping the ball on their biggest release so far.
Here's the thing. I'm a professional QC guy. Based on the pictures and descriptions coming from multiple sources, they did drop the ball. Casts like the one in the OP, or the ones described in the painting and modelling forum should never have made it out of the factory. With the quantity and concentrations of bad casts, any acceptable sampling methodology should have caught them. The fact that this many bad casts are out means that QC was asleep at the wheel, or someone in management made the genius call of, "ship it, if they don't like it, they can send it back."
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Post by: blasto0341
This is a hilarious thread. Really it is.
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Post by: Le Grognard
Here's the company line to questions asked via Customer Service and Facebook: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800012a
If this has been posted, please delete; thanks!!!!
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Post by: nectarprime
sharkticon wrote:blasto0341 wrote:DarkStarSabre wrote:blasto0341 wrote:How many times have you gone back to a store to return something? Why is it such a shock that a "new" item hits the shelf and some are not perfect. FFS give them some room to fix the initial errors. Ya'll act like you've never returned anything, or encountered a flaw in a product.
A product being pushed as heavily as Finecast should have a bit more quality control really. If this is their finest quality material with super-detailed results then you'd think they'd put a bit more effort into some of it.
So far the miscasts seen or heard about have been quite severe - not repairable minor defects but whole parts deformed. Not the best way to start a line off.
C'mon man, how can you blame GW, are you at the factory seeing that they don't have this quality control? I bet all my orks they have it, but the jackass doing the job missed some. Are you really smashing GW and not the lazy workers who have jobs to look at a conveuyer belt full of plastic army men waiting for a mistake to roll by? That is more likely than GW dropping the ball on their biggest release so far.
Here's the thing. I'm a professional QC guy. Based on the pictures and descriptions coming from multiple sources, they did drop the ball. Casts like the one in the OP, or the ones described in the painting and modelling forum should never have made it out of the factory. With the quantity and concentrations of bad casts, any acceptable sampling methodology should have caught them. The fact that this many bad casts are out means that QC was asleep at the wheel, or someone in management made the genius call of, "ship it, if they don't like it, they can send it back."
Sounds like something one of the managers at my work would say...
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Post by: lunarman
It's hilarious because 50% of the questions asked were about prices and why they are going up despite costs going down.....
1523
Post by: Saldiven
filbert wrote:blasto0341 wrote:Simple fix, don't buy GW then lol. Pick up some sculpting tools and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if some small bubbles and "having to return" an item is ruining your hobby well it's time to find a new one. Hahaha, people whine about GW and STILL buy from them. WTF?!? why oh why I ask!!!!?!?!?!
Not sure where anyone noted that miscasts were 'ruining their hobby' and I'm not sure where you think all this rage is coming from. All I have seen thus far about Finecast have been some legitimate concerns given the pictorial evidence we have seen thus far. Whether those concerns are borne out in the long run remains to be seen. As to acting on those concerns, well that's kind of what the debate is turning to; the fact is that if such miscasts are prevalent then people will stop buying GW, as a significant drop in quality versus price would affect any business.
You need to calm down a bit, think about what you are saying and perhaps try and engage people a little more politely if you really want people to not write off your points at face value.
Too late.
40530
Post by: blasto0341
Holy crap people the Finecast is not released yet hahaha. The mini in the pic could be from a pile the quality control set aside as "not good" and someone got ahold of one. How else are these people getting finecast so early??
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Post by: puma713
yakface wrote:
Anyway, given that finecast models are short in supply and being rushed as fast as possible to retailers to fill the holes in the miniature lines, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that initially there are more miscasts. I would expect that once stocks have been properly replenished and production of the miniatures reverts to its standard levels that you'd hope for a drop in the number of defective minis produced...not to mention that experience with the casting material can only help as time goes on as well.
But that's part of the problem, is it not? When you have to start defending a 'superior' product before it's even hit the shelves. Why does it need defense? We're paying more, we've been told that it is a better product and that it'll revolutionize the industry and yet, the first few public examples we've seen are miscasts or deformed? Where is the PR? Where is the quality control?
And to speak to your point, didn't they create the problem themselves? If they had to rush to get Finecast out (making it somehow okay that they boxed miscasts for sale) to fill in missing models from their miniature line, why are the models missing? Did they have to get rid of the metal molds for the finecast ones? Did they use the metal molds for the finecast ones? These are not rhetorical questions - I'm truly interested in understanding.
With bad press comes these sorts of questions. A lot of people are defending these miscasts. Why? Why is it acceptable at all? If you bought a car from Honda and it was the new series of Accord, but your wheels fell off, would you say, "Well, it's the new version, maybe they won't all be like mine!" And be fine with it? Just because the may improve and may be fine in a month or two is no excuse for the lack of quality control and customer care displayed here.
And you know what could fix it? GW explaining their decisions. Any sort of customer interaction. Why did the metal models have to be pulled so quickly? Did it cause the Finecast production to be rushed? If so, is that the reason for miscasts? How would you have done it differently? But instead, once again, they'll let the internet talk for them.
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Post by: sharkticon
blasto0341 wrote:Holy crap people the Finecast is not released yet hahaha. The mini in the pic could be from a pile the quality control set aside as "not good" and someone got ahold of one. How else are these people getting finecast so early??
A store started selling them early? The stores have them already, they just haven't been put on display. Disregarding street date is a time honored tradition for small retailers.
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Post by: kronk
Ninja'd by Sharkticon.
Stores already have them, Blasto0341. They just can't sell them until the release date.
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Post by: puma713
blasto0341 wrote:Holy crap people the Finecast is not released yet hahaha. The mini in the pic could be from a pile the quality control set aside as "not good" and someone got ahold of one. How else are these people getting finecast so early??
Really? I guess they go ahead and package the ones that they don't intend to sell? And ship them too? Yeah, that's the perfect way to keep the "pile from quality control" out of the loop.
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Post by: Saldiven
blasto0341 wrote:Holy crap people the Finecast is not released yet hahaha. The mini in the pic could be from a pile the quality control set aside as "not good" and someone got ahold of one. How else are these people getting finecast so early??
Um...because they were shipped early enough that they would be in stores prior to the release date, and someone who has access to those recently arrived shipments decided to post about them? Which is pretty much how the OP stated he got access to it....
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Post by: warboss
sharkticon wrote:
Here's the thing. I'm a professional QC guy. Based on the pictures and descriptions coming from multiple sources, they did drop the ball. Casts like the one in the OP, or the ones described in the painting and modelling forum should never have made it out of the factory. With the quantity and concentrations of bad casts, any acceptable sampling methodology should have caught them. The fact that this many bad casts are out means that QC was asleep at the wheel, or someone in management made the genius call of, "ship it, if they don't like it, they can send it back."
They had absolutely no reason to think that they wouldn't get away with it. FW has put out just as shabby products (truely finely sculpted yet cast by a half blind drunkard) with little to no effect other than an occasional complaint that they send out a part for. The gaming community whines about it but that doesn't stop the limited subset of customers who keep buying their stuff and fixing it on their own generally.
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Post by: Ouze
Saldiven wrote:This actually worried me. If a few minutes under a hair dryer can make a piece "spaghetti" like, then what will happen if you leave your carry case full of minis in your car on a hot summer's day?
Sounds like we better be sure not to make that mistake, huh? Glad I'm aware ahead of time, because I've been known to leave my minis in my car for weeks at a time.
I'm surprised you haven't already had issues with leaving your minis in the car. I've seen a great many posts on here about current plastics warping from even a day in the trunk, and I never leave mine in the car; this changes nothing for me.
On topic, it's nice to see with moving to Forge World class prices, they've also adopted Forge World class quality.
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Post by: Saldiven
Ouze wrote:Saldiven wrote:This actually worried me. If a few minutes under a hair dryer can make a piece "spaghetti" like, then what will happen if you leave your carry case full of minis in your car on a hot summer's day?
Sounds like we better be sure not to make that mistake, huh? Glad I'm aware ahead of time, because I've been known to leave my minis in my car for weeks at a time.
I'm surprised you haven't already had issues with leaving your minis in the car. I've seen a great many posts on here about current plastics warping from even a day in the trunk, and I never leave mine in the car; this changes nothing for me.
On topic, it's nice to see with moving to Forge World class prices, they've also adopted Forge World class quality.
I don't really think this is a big, big issue about Finecast; I just kinda meant it as a warning to be on the safe side. It would suck to have your minis totally wrecked by leaving them in your car for an hour while you were eating or something. Like I said, just to be on the safe side, keep the Finecast minis somewhere climate controlled.
19754
Post by: puma713
Ouze wrote:
On topic, it's nice to see with moving to Forge World class prices, they've also adopted Forge World class quality.
I know right? How are you going to know if a recaster sells you an inferior product on eBay now? They look like GW's regular production!
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Post by: kronk
nectarprime wrote:I live in Washington and still I would never store my army in my car. I would just take it into my office. Why wouldn't anybody else? Embarrassed? Does your army box or bag say "NERD HOBBY SUPPLIES" on it or something?
Because it looks like a gun case and I work in a factory.
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Post by: Saldiven
kronk wrote:nectarprime wrote:I live in Washington and still I would never store my army in my car. I would just take it into my office. Why wouldn't anybody else? Embarrassed? Does your army box or bag say "NERD HOBBY SUPPLIES" on it or something?
Because it looks like a gun case and I work in a factory.
I'm just too darn lazy.
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Post by: Ouze
Saldiven wrote:kronk wrote:nectarprime wrote:I live in Washington and still I would never store my army in my car. I would just take it into my office. Why wouldn't anybody else? Embarrassed? Does your army box or bag say "NERD HOBBY SUPPLIES" on it or something?
Because it looks like a gun case and I work in a factory.
I'm just too darn lazy.
What state do you live in? I hadn't considered living someplace like Washington, where it has both mild winters and summers. I've only lived in NY and Iowa, which have similar seasonal extremes.
Still, I'd worry someone would break into my trunk and steal them, especially if I kept them in a gun case like Kronk.
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Post by: nectarprime
kronk wrote:nectarprime wrote:I live in Washington and still I would never store my army in my car. I would just take it into my office. Why wouldn't anybody else? Embarrassed? Does your army box or bag say "NERD HOBBY SUPPLIES" on it or something?
Because it looks like a gun case and I work in a factory.
I work in a factory too. Doesn't matter if it looks like a gun case because it IS NOT A GUN
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Post by: kronk
I have one of these:
and one of these:
I have a 1/4 mile walk from the parking lot to my office in the plant. No way in hell I'd carry either to my office. It's a moot point, though. I just keep my stuff at home and go get it when I want to play.
19754
Post by: puma713
So. . .how 'bout those new 'Finecast' models?
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Post by: evilsponge
I hear they're pretty bad
3806
Post by: Grot 6
What does it say when you've seen it all before?
"Like 80% of the models....." yadda yada yadda.
"New and improved..."
"Tastes like chicken..."
Fine Cost, or WTH they want to call it isn't anything special. Its looking more and more like that soft assed plastic they make those green army men out of more and more that I see it, and the only thing "Impressive" is the cost.
That packaging is gak.
That material is gak.
The sculpt quality, even if it IS new... is gak.
Even when Legion got it, ( and thanks a ton for the review, It was as objective as I can honestly see it. kudos to you. ) It is not to the standard of quality that we would expect those basic of the basic sculpts. Apologise for them all you want to, that stuff is a turd in gaks clothing, and GW should have held fast and tried the process with three or four test run models from both the fantasy and 40K line to work out the gaks and laughs before pulling th stuff they did. This is a bone head play of all bonehead plays, new process or not.
This IS EXACTLY THE SAME BS THAT MONGOOSE PULLED WITH THIER FIGURES. even all the while pulling the wool over people eyes and telling them that they were all wrong and to trust them. I see the exactly the same thing going on with this.
It's Deja Vu all over again...
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Post by: Ouze
There have been some interesting arguments put forth by Blasto0341. I'm going to try and explain to you why i think you're wrong, using an analogy. (I've omitted some of your many unnecessary " LOL's" and "hehehehs").
Original quote: blasto0341 wrote:Simple fix, don't buy GW then lol. Pick up some sculpting tools and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if some small bubbles and "having to return" an item is ruining your hobby well it's time to find a new one. Hahaha, people whine about GW and STILL buy from them. WTF?!? why oh why I ask!!!!?!?!?!
If GWS was your ISP: Simple fix, don't buy internet service then lol. Get your own copper wire and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if not having any internet is ruining your hobby well it's time to find a new one.
Would you accept this if your internet was out, and you called and got this response?
If GWS was your local diner: Simple fix, don't buy food then lol. Go home, get a skillet and hamburger patties and get to work! Well, all I have to say is, if burnt food is ruining your dinner well it's time to find a new one.
Would you walk out without demanding your money back, if your diner burned your food and then gave you this response?
Original quote: blasto0341 wrote:C'mon man, how can you blame GW, are you at the factory seeing that they don't have this quality control? I bet all my orks they have it, but the jackass doing the job missed some. Are you really smashing GW and not the lazy workers who have jobs to look at a conveuyer belt full of plastic army men waiting for a mistake to roll by?
If GWS was a car manufacturer: C'mon man, how can you blame Lexus, are you at the factory seeing that they don't have this quality control? I bet all my orks they have it, but the guy putting the wheels on, who we hired and pay to put the wheels on, passing the cost along to you missed some. Are you really smashing Lexus, the people you gave your money to for a car and not the lazy workers that we hired to build you car to look at a conveuyer belt full of wheels waiting for a mistake to roll by?
Would you accept this argument if you paid a premium price for a Lexus, and then the wheels fell off after you started to drive it off the dealship lot? Are you making a good faith argument that if you go to Best Buy and get a TV, and they sell you a box full of broken glass, the manager telling you "man, I don't know what goes on in the factory, it's not like I'm working back there watching them" would be, to you, an acceptable response?
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Post by: Destrado
Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend usingg superglue to cover any air bubbles!
Even though this is the first batch, and it is "understandable" (not acceptable) that they have these quality issues, it seriously puts me off buying these failcasts.
Especially given the fact that they actually raised prices (yes, they have to get R&D investment back... but wouldn't they get it anyway from selling a cheaper product at the same price as they did?), even if casting quality improves I doubt it'll help issues related with the material itself - namely bent staffs, like in this case.
I'm skeptical, and sad I didn't get some Incubi from my online store before all this crap, as I'll apparently have the same (or more) flash to clean up, with a less forgiving material, prone to getting miscasts, and a price hike to boot.
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Post by: pretre
Ouze wrote:There have been some interesting arguments put forth by Blasto0341. I'm going to try and explain to you why i think you're wrong, using an analogy. (I've omitted some of your many unnecessary "LOL's" and "hehehehs").
Snip
Not that I agree with Blasto, but daaaamn that's a lot of strawmen. Not the best way to argue your point, Ouze.
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Post by: Ouze
I thought it was an effective way to highlight how we tend to accept craptacular product in our hobby that we would not accept in other facets of our lives from other industries.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Destrado wrote:Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend using superglue to cover any air bubbles!
...How do you think people usually deal with air bubbles?
Air bubbles in the material can be lightly filed down and then superglue used to cover up the area, providing a surface for paint to adhere to later.
Even though this is the first batch, and it is "understandable" (not acceptable) that they have these quality issues, it seriously puts me off buying these failcasts.
Especially given the fact that they actually raised prices (yes, they have to get R&D investment back... but wouldn't they get it anyway from selling a cheaper product at the same price as they did?), even if casting quality improves I doubt it'll help issues related with the material itself - namely bent staffs, like in this case.
And all things considered, whining about bent staves is stupid. I've seen metal Terminator Librarians with that same bent staff, and people end up snapping the dang thing trying to straighten it. With this stuff, just some hot water and bam--it's fixed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ouze wrote:I thought it was an effective way to highlight how we tend to accept craptacular product in our hobby that we would not accept in other facets of our lives from other industries.
I'd normally agree, but then I remember people actually consider T Mobile a good phone company.
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Post by: pretre
Ouze wrote:I thought it was an effective way to highlight how we tend to accept craptacular product in our hobby that we would not accept in other facets of our lives from other industries.
That's one way to look at it, but there's a couple of things wrong with that. One, the industries are not the same. Food, cars, etc are not luxury items for most folks... (Some cars are the exception, of course.) Two, you never actually addressed his position, you made up a new position and then addressed that. That's kind of the heart of a strawman.
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Post by: nectarprime
Ouze wrote:I thought it was an effective way to highlight how we tend to accept craptacular product in our hobby that we would not accept in other facets of our lives from other industries.
+1
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Post by: thebadabwar
This article mentions the pits and bubbles several times. I wonder if this will be the most prevalent defect on all the finecast stuff? I ordered 20 different models in finecast so I'll know for sure how wide spread these issues are next week. Definitely counting on GW's decent customer service to take care of any issues with miscasts.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Destrado wrote:Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend usingg superglue to cover any air bubbles!
.
I read just that and its really really sad... Air bubbles tend to ruin a model and are the not fixable with a drop of super glue
The only way to fix a airbubble that bursted is to resculpt the part damaged and for that you need strong sculpting skills.
Air bubbles are not acceptable given the fact that many smaller garage miniature casting operations manage to cast sharp bubble free resins casts... Accepting bubbles as a OK thing and easy fixable with a drop of glue is dodging the responsability to deliver a professional miniature.
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Post by: evilsponge
Neither is GW a luxury item. I know this has been debated to death and I don't want to derail, but I don't know anyone who considered their Games Workshop miniatures a status symbol. They're toys
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Post by: warboss
Kanluwen wrote:Destrado wrote:Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend using superglue to cover any air bubbles!
...How do you think people usually deal with air bubbles?
Air bubbles in the material can be lightly filed down and then superglue used to cover up the area, providing a surface for paint to adhere to later.
I think his fairly obvious point is that there shouldn't be air bubbles for the quality that they're advertising and the money that they're charging, not a problem about the particular method of fixing it. If smaller companies like scibor can charge a similar price yet avoid these miscasts, why can't a company with 25 more years of experience in the industry?
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Post by: Kanluwen
warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Destrado wrote:Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend using superglue to cover any air bubbles!
...How do you think people usually deal with air bubbles?
Air bubbles in the material can be lightly filed down and then superglue used to cover up the area, providing a surface for paint to adhere to later.
I think his fairly obvious point is that there shouldn't be air bubbles for the quality that they're advertising and the money that they're charging, not a problem about the particular method of fixing it. If smaller companies like scibor can charge a similar price yet avoid these miscasts, why can't a company with 25 more years of experience in the industry?
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
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Post by: Ouze
pretre wrote:Ouze wrote:I thought it was an effective way to highlight how we tend to accept craptacular product in our hobby that we would not accept in other facets of our lives from other industries.
That's one way to look at it, but there's a couple of things wrong with that. One, the industries are not the same. Food, cars, etc are not luxury items for most folks... (Some cars are the exception, of course.) Two, you never actually addressed his position, you made up a new position and then addressed that. That's kind of the heart of a strawman.
(some) food and cars specifically are luxury items. It's not an accident that I used Lexus in the last example (though maybe I should have used lobster instead of hamburger patties in the food one).
I stand by what I said being a analogy rather then a strawman.
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Post by: pretre
evilsponge wrote:Neither is GW a luxury item. I know this has been debated to death and I don't want to derail, but I don't know anyone who considered their Games Workshop miniatures a status symbol. They're toys
Luxury: something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary <one of life's luxuries>
Toys are, by definition, luxuries as you don't need them to live but they add pleasure to your life.
(some) food and cars specifically are luxury items. It's not an accident that I used Lexus in the last example (though maybe I should have used lobster instead of hamburger patties in the food one).
I stand by what I said being a analogy rather then a strawman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Post by: NAVARRO
Kanluwen wrote:Destrado wrote:Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend using superglue to cover any air bubbles!
...How do you think people usually deal with air bubbles?
Air bubbles in the material can be lightly filed down and then superglue used to cover up the area, providing a surface for paint to adhere to later.
.
Sorry mate but that is pure BS.
Air bubbles ussually burst edges or go in parts that are prone to trap air like gaps ( imagine a opened mouth for example)... You have to resculpt those if you want a OK miniature.
I can understand bubbles on subpar products done 10 years ago, but today with the tech and craftmanship available it only happens if the casting is not optimized ( either because bad craftmanship or bad bad resins).
12313
Post by: Ouze
evilsponge wrote:Neither is GW a luxury item. I know this has been debated to death and I don't want to derail, but I don't know anyone who considered their Games Workshop miniatures a status symbol. They're toys
The categories "toy" and "luxury item" are not mutually exclusive, to my thinking.
We can likely agree that a plastic ring is a toy, and a diamong ring is a luxury, right? They are both rings, but at some point (and that point is not fixed, it varies based upon your disposal income) it moved down the slider from "toy" to "luxury item", just as there is a slider between "Yugo" and "Porshe".
You don't think they are luxury items, find, that's your opinion, but the stance that they are luxury items is not exactly a stretch and I find that to be an equally valid opinion.
1478
Post by: warboss
Kanluwen wrote:
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
Then as the industry leader (especially one claiming that the products of these runs are the finest minis EVAR!!), they should maintain a higher level of quality control and not put out the product until it actually meets their own claims.
12893
Post by: evilsponge
Ouze wrote:evilsponge wrote:Neither is GW a luxury item. I know this has been debated to death and I don't want to derail, but I don't know anyone who considered their Games Workshop miniatures a status symbol. They're toys
The categories "toy" and "luxury item" are not mutually exclusive, to my thinking.
We can likely agree that a plastic ring is a toy, and a diamong ring is a luxury, right? They are both rings, but at some point (and that point is not fixed, it varies based upon your disposal income) it moved down the slider from "toy" to "luxury item", just as there is a slider between "Yugo" and "Porshe".
You don't think they are luxury items, find, that's your opinion, but the stance that they are luxury items is not exactly a stretch and I find that to be an equally valid opinion.
I see you point now, apologies.
12313
Post by: Ouze
evilsponge wrote:Ouze wrote:evilsponge wrote:Neither is GW a luxury item. I know this has been debated to death and I don't want to derail, but I don't know anyone who considered their Games Workshop miniatures a status symbol. They're toys
The categories "toy" and "luxury item" are not mutually exclusive, to my thinking.
We can likely agree that a plastic ring is a toy, and a diamong ring is a luxury, right? They are both rings, but at some point (and that point is not fixed, it varies based upon your disposal income) it moved down the slider from "toy" to "luxury item", just as there is a slider between "Yugo" and "Porshe".
You don't think they are luxury items, find, that's your opinion, but the stance that they are luxury items is not exactly a stretch and I find that to be an equally valid opinion.
I see you point now, apologies.
No reason to apologize. Like you said, it's been debated to death, so there is hardly a consensus on this.
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Post by: Kanluwen
warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
Then as the industry leader (especially one claiming that the products of these runs are the finest minis EVAR!!), they should maintain a higher level of quality control and not put out the product until it actually meets their own claims.
I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Kanluwen wrote:warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Destrado wrote:Horrible piece of casting. And on their website, they even recommend using superglue to cover any air bubbles!
...How do you think people usually deal with air bubbles?
Air bubbles in the material can be lightly filed down and then superglue used to cover up the area, providing a surface for paint to adhere to later.
I think his fairly obvious point is that there shouldn't be air bubbles for the quality that they're advertising and the money that they're charging, not a problem about the particular method of fixing it. If smaller companies like scibor can charge a similar price yet avoid these miscasts, why can't a company with 25 more years of experience in the industry?
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
25 year and a large scale operation like GW needs to put the money upfront and either hire competent inhouse mouldmakers and casters with the best material available in the industry or just outsource the casts to someone professional who knows what he is doing... all this looks very amateur and "maybe" thats not the best message that GW wants to be glued on.
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Post by: Saldiven
Ouze wrote:Saldiven wrote:kronk wrote:nectarprime wrote:I live in Washington and still I would never store my army in my car. I would just take it into my office. Why wouldn't anybody else? Embarrassed? Does your army box or bag say "NERD HOBBY SUPPLIES" on it or something?
Because it looks like a gun case and I work in a factory.
I'm just too darn lazy.
What state do you live in? I hadn't considered living someplace like Washington, where it has both mild winters and summers. I've only lived in NY and Iowa, which have similar seasonal extremes.
Still, I'd worry someone would break into my trunk and steal them, especially if I kept them in a gun case like Kronk.
I live just outside of Atlanta, GA, where it gets scorchingly hot in the summer. I'm honestly surprised that I haven't had worse damage from the heat to my models. But, after the first summer really didn't do anything, I never really had any reason to pull it out. Haha...actually, I just did a total cleaning of my car two weeks ago, so I did actually take the carry cases back inside my apartment, but that only lasted about three days before they were back in the trunk. They're in there right now.
19754
Post by: puma713
Destrado wrote:Especially given the fact that they actually raised prices (yes, they have to get R&D investment back... but wouldn't they get it anyway from selling a cheaper product at the same price as they did?), even if casting quality improves I doubt it'll help issues related with the material itself - namely bent staffs, like in this case.
Maybe that's what they're going for with the price increases - an illusion of higher quality. "Just make them cost more and people will think they're better quality!"
12313
Post by: Ouze
Kanluwen wrote:I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
That's one way to put it, sure. Here's another way to put it: 100% of the early products leaked had major casting flaws. Is that not equally accurate?
By they way, what is your rationale for posting that it was likely to have been returned by the shops that had them delivered, rather then by a customer that had purchased them? Alternately, do you think the best point in a manufacturing process to do quality control is at the point of sale? Automatically Appended Next Post: Saldiven wrote:I live just outside of Atlanta, GA, where it gets scorchingly hot in the summer. I'm honestly surprised that I haven't had worse damage from the heat to my models. But, after the first summer really didn't do anything, I never really had any reason to pull it out. Haha...actually, I just did a total cleaning of my car two weeks ago, so I did actually take the carry cases back inside my apartment, but that only lasted about three days before they were back in the trunk. They're in there right now.
I'm also pretty surprised to hear that, since I've read so many horror stories on here about people who have done that. But I have no firsthand knowledge in this topic, since I've never done so and lack the nerve to try doing so, with how slowly I paint.
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Post by: Gavin Thorne
Slipstream posted earlier about working with resin professionally and the level of quality control that they maintained in their industry and I'm going to pitch in my .02 on the topic as well.
I've only just begun producing moulds and casting in resin for my own hobby use using craft store-level supplies from Amazing Cast and following instructions from tutorials I've read here on dakka and other places. In the short time I've been making 2-part moulds I've gotten fairly proficient at it and can typically fix a bubble problem by making a new vent in the mould, eliminating the problem.
With almost every 2-part mould I've used, I've been able to get a completely successful casting after only 2-3 pours. Now mind you, I'm not casting entire models, but the casts I am making are fairly high in detail and the materials I'm using are far from professional quality and I have no formal training in the industry. Despite that, I'm able to produce items with higher quality than what the OP and others are showing here.
Wouldn't it stand to reason that a commercially produced resin copy of a metal model cast by a trained professional with professional/industrial quality materials would be faultless or so close to faultless as to require minimal repair? If I can do it sitting in my living room, why can't GW get it right in their production facility?
I have to agree with Ouze in that demanding the manufacturer provide what they themselves describe as the "Highest Quality" product live up to the standards they are setting for themselves. That said, I am giving GW the benefit of the doubt and expect that the problems shown here are the exception rather than the norm, but I'll be at my FLGS tomorrow to check the stock.
19754
Post by: puma713
Kanluwen wrote: I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
I don't think everyone is crying doom and gloom or that the sky is falling. I think what is upsetting is that the prices went up, the material cost went down, we've been fed how awesome Finecast is going to be by Games-Workshop.com and then, the first few reviews we get are utter crap.
It doesn't matter if that is not the standard - it is going to affect people. If I were producing something and it was going to "revolutionize" the industry, I would be damn sure the first batches that went out were flawless. If there was a miscast like the one in the OP, and it went into a box and onto a shelf, the QC person in my factory would be gone. There are no excuses for this kind of stuff. Kroothawk has said in this thread that he's holding a perfectly fine miniature right now. Doesn't mean that the OP's point didn't happen or doesn't carry any weight.
Unless you like paying more for something that you've got to return, maybe more than once. GW doesn't refund $4.00/gal gas do they?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ouze wrote:Kanluwen wrote:I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
That's one way to put it, sure. Here's another way to put it: 100% of the early products leaked had major casting flaws. Is that not equally accurate?
Nope. Because look at the products shown on GW's "What's New Today".
At best, we've seen 3 out of 10 or so models with "major casting flaws". The persons who posted them refuse to say where they 'bought them from', because they likely weren't supposed to be sold anyways.
That's not '100%' by any stretch of the imagination.
By they way, what is your rationale for posting that it was likely to have been returned by the shops that had them delivered, rather then by a customer that had purchased them? Alternately, do you think the best point in a manufacturing process to do quality control is at the point of sale?
Of course it's not. But by that same point, there could be any number of reasonable explanations as to why this happened. Things like "Castings that were to be discarded were mistakenly packaged" or "the flaws were not noticed by the individuals performing inspections". I'm not saying that this is exactly what has happened, but I'm finding it hard to believe that there's 3 individuals who went to their local shops and ladeedadadee they end up with the most amazingly miscast models in existence?
I mean, ffs, the guy who supposedly 'bought' this Terminator Librarian didn't notice that the storm bolter was terribly miscast even though it's a clear package and the part was in plain sight on the most visible part of the sprue? You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
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Post by: agnosto
Kanluwen wrote:warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
Then as the industry leader (especially one claiming that the products of these runs are the finest minis EVAR!!), they should maintain a higher level of quality control and not put out the product until it actually meets their own claims.
I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
And the manufacturers admitting to flaws and even telling customers to fix it themselves is ok? Gee, next time just take your plate back to the kitchen at your favorite restaurant and fix it yourself. Yeah, that flies over like a lead balloon, why then is it ok for GW to tell us that?
I play a game. I don't enjoy the modelling aspects of the "hobby" nor am I particularly good at it. If I buy a product and there obvious defects, I'll ask for a replacement. The problem that I have with that is in the frequency. If it is proven that finecast figures have a higher frequency of of quality control issues then I'll be put out in that I'll have to take MY time to fix THEIR issue. I don't think GW plans on coming to my work and doing my job for me so why should I do theirs?
If there aren't any issues, or they're few and far between, I welcome the change because I hate working with metal figures.
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Post by: Grot 6
I have firsthand knowledge.
The miniatures in the car+ Heat= dead minis. Metals, so so, Paint chipped, and flakes a little but the resin ones that I have seen swords melted curved, the plastics bent slightly, and they "Bowed".
The models need to be kept out of heat. Period. It's not even a question of discussion with the look of these new ones.
THIS new plastic doesn't seem the same temperance of resin. I'm going to go out and call a BS on the flag on that "Better quality then metal" claim as well.
We could have even seen the blister packed models made out of GW's standard issue grey plastic injection process, and it would have been acceptable, even more so to seeing the process in the flash, so to speak.
The way in which was described in making the stuff supple by hot water is not something to write home about. If anything, people out there that have even one model know that they have guns, swords, banna poles, etc. to contend with. Now you have the ability to break off each and every part that extends from each and every model, by just handling it.
THAT in itself is a detractor, not something to be trying to sell people on, if anything, look at the post from GW-
WTF are they really talking about? Each and every one of thier points leads me to think that they know that they have a dog on thier hands, but it's too late in the process to do anything about it.
Little tidbits such as...
"As this is such a big event for the hobby we've had lots of you calling customer services, emailing us at What's New Today and asking us questions on Facebook. Nearly all of the questions have been about how you work with Citadel Finecast miniatures. We thought, since many of you will be getting your hands on them this weekend, we would create a handy guide to working with Citadel Finecast..."
Sprues and frames: Most Citadel Finecast miniatures come on a sprue or frame, but not every model needs them, so you may find ones without - this is completely normal so don't panic if you think you're missing a sprue.
Flash: You will all be familiar with flash on metal models. Citadel Finecast resin flows even more smoothly than metal does in the moulds. This means that a miniature might have very little flash, but some have a lot which might look unusual. Don't worry, this flash is easy to remove (quite often you can remove most of it with your fingers).
Mould lines: As with flash, there may be mould lines on a model. Mould lines come away very easily if you give them a light backwards scrape towards you with a modelling knife. Try to avoid using Modelling Files though, as they will chew through easily (the phrase 'they go through bone like butter', springs to mind).
Safety: Citadel Finecast is made from our own 'secret recipe'; it's absolutely safe and does not require you to wear a face mask. The 12+ on our packaging is about the skill and craft required to do our hobby, not about the material. We make sure that all our products are tested by external professionals and Citadel Finecast is no exception.
Bubbles: Sometimes you will see small bubbles on the surface of Citadel Finecast models. These are easy filled with a dab of Super Glue or, if small enough, will disappear when you undercoat the model.
Gluing: Always use Super Glue on Citadel Finecast miniatures and not Plastic Glue. The bond that can be achieved with just a small dab of Super Glue is so strong that large components such as wings can be glued quickly and without the need for pinning.
Durability: Citadel Finecast is light and strong. As an example, the Citadel Finecast Azhag the Slaughterer was dropped from a height of 3 feet (alright, I accidentally knocked it off my desk) and it landed on the floor totally unharmed. If that had been the metal version of the miniature, I'd have spent the rest of the day pinning, gluing and repainting it! If you don't believe me, click on the picture and you can see how just how flexible the resin is as I bend Skulltaker's sword.
Painting: Simply clean up your model, undercoat it and start painting. There's no need to wash it at all.
Conversions: Citadel Finecast resin is an amazing material for converting models. It's easy to cut, reposition and glue and it works fantastically well with Green Stuff. As I mentioned above, try to avoid using files or sanding it, as you might accidentally remove some of the detail if you get too carried away.
Lead me to think that not all is right in the cidital tower and to top off the propaganda with a bunch of B.S. while they figure how to pull something out of this.
All in all? The claims are false advertising and these points are highly suspicious in light of the OP's discussion.
19754
Post by: puma713
Kanluwen wrote: You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
What's more alarming to me is that I have to inspect a new product for miscasts anyway. What about items that aren't blisters? How would one go about making sure they're not buying a defective product? I, as a consumer, should not be worried about the new product I'm going to buy before I've even bought it.
While I agree that this is in particular is probably a storm in a teacup, it doesn't make it any less alarming or frustrating.
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Post by: evilsponge
I mean, ffs, the guy who supposedly 'bought' this Terminator Librarian didn't notice that the storm bolter was terribly miscast even though it's a clear package and the part was in plain sight on the most visible part of the sprue? You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
What are you trying to say? That this was all a conspiracy to defame GW's 'finecast' miniatures? Should I get my tinfoil hat?
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Post by: NAVARRO
What bugs me the most is the way GW addressed the problems... "flash can be taken with your fingers, mouldlines go away like butter and bubbles a drop of supper glue"... Instead of saying someting like... "sorry folks we had some quality problems on first batch but we will make it better, its a new thing for us you know etc...."
If you dont identify a problem like one you will never try to fix it and this seems, unfortunatly, were all is heading to. I do hope Im 100% wrong here and that they regroup and solve these issues.
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Post by: Kanluwen
agnosto wrote:Kanluwen wrote:warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
Then as the industry leader (especially one claiming that the products of these runs are the finest minis EVAR!!), they should maintain a higher level of quality control and not put out the product until it actually meets their own claims.
I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
And the manufacturers admitting to flaws and even telling customers to fix it themselves is ok? Gee, next time just take your plate back to the kitchen at your favorite restaurant and fix it yourself. Yeah, that flies over like a lead balloon, why then is it ok for GW to tell us that?
Not the same thing and you damned well know it.
I play a game. I don't enjoy the modelling aspects of the "hobby" nor am I particularly good at it. If I buy a product and there obvious defects, I'll ask for a replacement. The problem that I have with that is in the frequency. If it is proven that finecast figures have a higher frequency of of quality control issues then I'll be put out in that I'll have to take MY time to fix THEIR issue. I don't think GW plans on coming to my work and doing my job for me so why should I do theirs?
I just went back and looked at the specific model that they used to show off in today's "What's New". The 'air bubbles' in question were tiny little imperfections along the hem of the cloak where it looked like the bubbles had popped inward leaving a tiny indentation. If they've managed to do something where that kind of thing is what happens for air bubbles--then a light coat of superglue will fix the issue by filling in the pores left behind.
And I'm pretty sure that they'll have the same replacement policy in effect.
If there aren't any issues, or they're few and far between, I welcome the change because I hate working with metal figures.
Agreed, but I really really really fething hate metal. If I have to put up with an extra 10-15 minutes of fill work or resculpting to do resin models--I don't really care. I'm already set up for that having been working on FW and modern military kits in resin for years now.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Regardless of the actual quality of the Finecast line, the way GW handles the switch is rather silly. The HQ section of Dark Elder on GW's own store contains one Finecast Haemonculus, Drazhar and two old metal Haemonculi. That's it, nothing else is available. They seem content offering advanced orders on other stuff, yet pull items that are in for the resin treatment completely, without even mentioning when they'll be back in stock. That's a brain damaging facepalm right there.
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Post by: Kanluwen
evilsponge wrote:
I mean, ffs, the guy who supposedly 'bought' this Terminator Librarian didn't notice that the storm bolter was terribly miscast even though it's a clear package and the part was in plain sight on the most visible part of the sprue? You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
What are you trying to say? That this was all a conspiracy to defame GW's 'finecast' miniatures? Should I get my tinfoil hat?
I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, but I'm saying it's dang fishy.
12313
Post by: Ouze
Kanluwen wrote:I mean, ffs, the guy who supposedly 'bought' this Terminator Librarian didn't notice that the storm bolter was terribly miscast even though it's a clear package and the part was in plain sight on the most visible part of the sprue? You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
So, to your thinking, this guys specifically picked the worst casting available to cast GWS in a bad light (to no discernible end), while simultaneously assuming good faith in not speculating that GWS probably didn't cherry-pick out the best casts available to them for use with the "Whats new today" page (to a rather obvious end)? I thinking you are warping your logic to fit your desire, there.
That being said, the bottom line here still is, at best, we don't know what the product is going to look like until it's released. Retail packaging aside, you're right in that the source is dubious, at best. Looking at GWS's track record in miniature production, one of the issues they have never really had was a poorly produced product (lets not debate sculpting quality). Sure, FW quality blows, but GWS is not FW. Their product has always been technically well produced and so in this specific aspect of their business, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I've gotten a few miscast parts (who hasn't) but they are pretty well the exception, rather then the rule, and the rarity of such has always been within my personal margin of error. The fact they have never once ever hedged on their customer service with issues like that also makes me not too worried with this (although again, better to not miscast in the first place then the handle the returns gracefully).
So we should probably wait and see.
19754
Post by: puma713
Kanluwen wrote: If I have to put up with an extra 10-15 minutes of fill work or resculpting to do resin models--I don't really care. I'm already set up for that having been working on FW and modern military kits in resin for years now.
This also seems like another step away from new gamers/hobbyists. You don't mind so much because you've been working with it for while. What about those that do mind - that don't like to sculpt or refashion? What about the new gamers who just got into 40K, but didn't have to do any fillwork before? I don't think it'll encourage the growth of the hobby from the hobbyists point-of-view. Sure, some may love to do things like that. I, for one, want to buy a model in the state that it should be. Clean off the flash and stick it on a base. Now I have to learn about bubbles, what they do to miniatures and how to best fix them, or heating material and reshaping it - ie., things I'm not comfortable doing on something I've just spent $20 on.
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Post by: oni
All I'm saying is... If I pay $22 for a single model... It better be fething perfect.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Ouze wrote:Kanluwen wrote:I mean, ffs, the guy who supposedly 'bought' this Terminator Librarian didn't notice that the storm bolter was terribly miscast even though it's a clear package and the part was in plain sight on the most visible part of the sprue? You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
So, to your thinking, this guys specifically picked the worst casting available to cast GWS in a bad light (to no discernible end), while simultaneously assuming good faith in not speculating that GWS probably didn't cherry-pick out the best casts available to them for use with the "Whats new today" page (to a rather obvious end)? I thinking you are warping your logic to fit your desire, there.
I wasn't trying to 'warp my logic to fit my desire', but I was making a point. The three individuals that we've seen posting 'reviews' have refused to say anything in particular about where they acquired the models or how.
One of those 'horribly miscast models', the Draigo one, had no noticeable flaws. At all. There's been a few other posts over on the German "Fan World" site where a guy showed his models(Draigo and Coteaz) that he got and not a one problem was on there.
The other two 'horribly miscast models'(one's in P&M here, the other is this thread) look like the kind of thing you'd spot in the packaging.
That being said, the bottom line here still is, at best, we don't know what the product is going to look like until it's released. Retail packaging aside, you're right in that the source is dubious, at best. Looking at GWS's track record in miniature production, one of the issues they have never really had was a poorly produced product (lets not debate sculpting quality). Sure, FW quality blows, but GWS is not FW. Their product has always been technically well produced and so in this specific aspect of their business, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I've gotten a few miscast parts (who hasn't) but they are pretty well the exception, rather then the rule, and the rarity of such has always been within my personal margin of error. The fact they have never once ever hedged on their customer service with issues like that also makes me not too worried with this (although again, better to not miscast in the first place then the handle the returns gracefully).
So we should probably wait and see.
Which, again, has been the point I've tried to make. We'll see what happens but right now this just seems more and more like people trying to get negative attention spotlighted on GW so soon after the whole gakstorm that was last week.
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Post by: Billythekid256
I just saw that model at my LGS and i can say that it looked beautiful the detail was amazing so far im interested in buying a model
29514
Post by: doctorludo
oni wrote:All I'm saying is... If I pay $22 for a single model... It better be fething perfect.
This. I've never understood why people accept it. If we all return bad models, they'll get quality control sorted.
Returned a terrible Karl Franz, opened the replacement model in store, and tried to fit it together. It wouldn't go. Really wouldn't go. Big gaps between the parts.
"Do you use green stuff?"
"Yes, but at this price, I shouldn't need to."
They gave me another.
1309
Post by: Lordhat
pretre wrote:Wow. I just saw GW's newest pic of Finecast and I have to say I am impressed with the detail. I don't see any miscasts either.
This pic is shopped. I can tell because of the pixels and the fact that there is a girl in it.
15094
Post by: pixelpusher
puma713 wrote:What's more alarming to me is that I have to inspect a new product for miscasts anyway. What about items that aren't blisters? How would one go about making sure they're not buying a defective product? I, as a consumer, should not be worried about the new product I'm going to buy before I've even bought it.
Just like you did when they were in metal, I hope.
I sure hope most of you guys are exaggerating a little. When a manufacturer puts out a new product they kinda -have- to describe it as the next best thing to sliced bread. It's a part of the corporate spiel. Microsoft, Volvo, <insert random startup>, etc. are all releasing "revolutionary" products if you read their pressreleases.
Sure, I wish GW or most other companies were a little more transparent. But it's not like it's hard to spot what's pressrelease-talk and what isn't. Is it? All this "They said it was manna from heaven BUT IT WASN'T!!!" is getting a bit tiresome.
4010
Post by: Delephont
Kanluwen wrote:agnosto wrote:Kanluwen wrote:warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
Then as the industry leader (especially one claiming that the products of these runs are the finest minis EVAR!!), they should maintain a higher level of quality control and not put out the product until it actually meets their own claims.
I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
And the manufacturers admitting to flaws and even telling customers to fix it themselves is ok? Gee, next time just take your plate back to the kitchen at your favorite restaurant and fix it yourself. Yeah, that flies over like a lead balloon, why then is it ok for GW to tell us that?
Not the same thing and you damned well know it.
No, it's exactly the same thing....his examples are correct. The problem is that people like you have gotten used to a service or product where you pay a premium to own it, and when it comes in less than advertised, you accpet it and carry on. I've seen this attitude in other industries as well, like airsoft, where it was considered "OK" to pay $1500+ for a Systema and then have to "tinker" with it to get it work....what a load of BS......you wouldn't accpet this off a car company, and you wouldn't accept it from your local resturant...so why here?
You guys think you'Re being Whizz with your files, your green stuff and your scaple blades....but all you are really is a laughing stock. I bet GW has pictures of you on their Corporate HQ walls "The ideal customer"...sell 'em a turd and watch 'em polish it.
19754
Post by: puma713
pixelpusher wrote:puma713 wrote:What's more alarming to me is that I have to inspect a new product for miscasts anyway. What about items that aren't blisters? How would one go about making sure they're not buying a defective product? I, as a consumer, should not be worried about the new product I'm going to buy before I've even bought it.
Just like you did when they were in metal, I hope.
Sure, I would check it to make sure all the pieces were there. But I wasn't worried that I'd have to green stuff a bolter back together, no.
pixelpusher wrote:I sure hope most of you guys are exaggerating a little. When a manufacturer puts out a new product they kinda -have- to describe it as the next best thing to sliced bread. It's a part of the corporate spiel. Microsoft, Volvo, <insert random startup>, etc. are all releasing "revolutionary" products if you read their pressreleases.
Right, the difference is, generally, the new product replaces the old one with a better verson. A lot of times this is subjective (Vista replacing XP, for example), but when it is something hard-and-fast, it is more objective. To say that something is amazing, much better than its predecessor and then you hold it up to its predecessor and it has actual, realized flaws that the predecessor does not, then not only have the exaggerated their claims, but they've simply lied too.
15094
Post by: pixelpusher
puma713 wrote:Sure, I would check it to make sure all the pieces were there. But I wasn't worried that I'd have to green stuff a bolter back together, no.
You and me have different experience with metals then. I've had a bunch that were of questionable quality. So... I inspect them if possible.
puma713 wrote:Right, the difference is, generally, the new product replaces the old one with a better verson. A lot of times this is subjective (Vista replacing XP, for example), but when it is something hard-and-fast, it is more objective. To say that something is amazing, much better than its predecessor and then you hold it up to its predecessor and it has actual, realized flaws that the predecessor does not, then not only have the exaggerated their claims, but they've simply lied too.
Big companies "lie" most of the time. It's nothing new? As a public company they really can't say "We made a slightly worse version this time", even though we consumers would appreciate that.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Delephont wrote:Kanluwen wrote:agnosto wrote:Kanluwen wrote:warboss wrote:Kanluwen wrote:
Because those 25 more years of experience in the industry aren't in working with large scale production runs of resin, maybe?
Then as the industry leader (especially one claiming that the products of these runs are the finest minis EVAR!!), they should maintain a higher level of quality control and not put out the product until it actually meets their own claims.
I'm not debating that. I'm debating this stupid idea that the entire range is doomed to failure because three people have posted 'reviews' of product that was likely going to be returned to GW by the shops that had them.
And the manufacturers admitting to flaws and even telling customers to fix it themselves is ok? Gee, next time just take your plate back to the kitchen at your favorite restaurant and fix it yourself. Yeah, that flies over like a lead balloon, why then is it ok for GW to tell us that?
Not the same thing and you damned well know it.
No, it's exactly the same thing....his examples are correct. The problem is that people like you have gotten used to a service or product where you pay a premium to own it, and when it comes in less than advertised, you accept it and carry on.
Where does it say that? Underneath of "Model comes unassembled and some work may be necessary to assemble it"?
I've seen this attitude in other industries as well, like airsoft, where it was considered "OK" to pay $1500+ for a Systema and then have to "tinker" with it to get it work....what a load of BS......you wouldn't accept this off a car company, and you wouldn't accept it from your local resturant...so why here?
Let's see.
I wouldn't accept subpar manufacturing from a car company because subpar automobiles can cause accidents which kill people and I wouldn't accept it from a local dining establishment because there's standards that have to be upheld.
You guys think you're being whizz with your files, your green stuff and your scalpel blades....but all you are really is a laughing stock. I bet GW has pictures of you on their Corporate HQ walls "The ideal customer"...sell 'em a turd and watch 'em polish it.
If anything is beyond my rudimentary green stuff skills or I can't fix it in under two days of work--you can bet your pants that I complain to GW or Forge World about it. I have two Inquisitor Hector Rexes right now simply because the sword on the first one was riddled with air bubbles that I couldn't just file down and get rid of.
But then again, I also y'know have paid attention to the fine print where they say that "If the product has air bubbles or other irregularities that would obscure fine detail contact us and we'll send out a replacement".
Edit was to fix a quote I forgot to do. Sorry Delephont.
19754
Post by: puma713
pixelpusher wrote:
Big companies "lie" most of the time. It's nothing new? As a public company they really can't say "We made a slightly worse version this time", even though we consumers would appreciate that.
Right. Instead, they said the exact opposite. But. . . that's okay? We should just accept it because, "big companies lie all the time"?
1523
Post by: Saldiven
Kanluwen wrote:
If anything is beyond my rudimentary green stuff skills or I can't fix it in under two days of work--you can bet your pants that I complain to GW or Forge World about it. I have two Inquisitor Hector Rexes right now simply because the sword on the first one was riddled with air bubbles that I couldn't just file down and get rid of.
You, sir, have the patience of a Saint.
There's no way I would spend an amount of time even approximating two days attempting to fix a flaw in something I purchased before contacting the manufacturer to get them to fix it.
4010
Post by: Delephont
Kanluwen wrote: I wouldn't accept subpar manufacturing from a car company because [i]subpar automobiles can cause accidents which kill people
no, you have saftey critical systems on a car, but you also have systems which are not safety critical like your I.C.E (In Car Entertainment) things like Screens in your rear head rests which don't display, or excess noise on your audio system becuase of EMC (Electro Magnetic Compatibility) issues.....these things won't kill you, but they will piss you off.
Further to your point. While I have certainly read that "miniatures come unpainted and require assembly" i don't believe I've ever read, anywhere that I would need to resculpt my miniature....would you care to cite where you have read this and provide proof. I will humbly stand corrected if you can, seriously.
4588
Post by: Destrado
Kanluwen wrote:
You guys think you're being whizz with your files, your green stuff and your scalpel blades....but all you are really is a laughing stock. I bet GW has pictures of you on their Corporate HQ walls "The ideal customer"...sell 'em a turd and watch 'em polish it.
If anything is beyond my rudimentary green stuff skills or I can't fix it in under two days of work--you can bet your pants that I complain to GW or Forge World about it. I have two Inquisitor Hector Rexes right now simply because the sword on the first one was riddled with air bubbles that I couldn't just file down and get rid of.
But then again, I also y'know have paid attention to the fine print where they say that "If the product has air bubbles or other irregularities that would obscure fine detail contact us and we'll send out a replacement".
I don't want to pay more for the same product I used to have, which also had better quality, required less GS'ing (and altogether care) than the supposed newer, higher quality product. If people feel that they're paying more for less, they have all the right to complain. Not complaining doesn't make them better hobbyists. I don't have to compare miniatures to cars or anything.
Someone once said that they wouldn't mind paying GW prices, as long as the quality is good. I am alarmed at the reviews I've read, but I'll be more than happy to buy finecast miniatures provided I don't need to have more care for it than I would with a metal miniature. Covering for manufacturing defects isn't something I want to PAY for.
On the matter of a bent staff, I'd rather have a bent staff in metal than in resin. As I'm willing to bet most people would.
44334
Post by: Alendrel
Kanluwen wrote:
One of those 'horribly miscast models', the Draigo one, had no noticeable flaws. At all. There's been a few other posts over on the German "Fan World" site where a guy showed his models(Draigo and Coteaz) that he got and not a one problem was on there.
The other two 'horribly miscast models'(one's in P&M here, the other is this thread) look like the kind of thing you'd spot in the packaging.
The Draigo from 3++ has a nice huge needle vent coming from the chest decoration that is larger than the rivet it was drilled through. That's a noticeable flaw. While there doesn't seem to be any bubble issues, the venting runs close to damaging detail, but I'd have to see it close to tell.
As for other flawed models we've seen:
How about an Emperor's Champion that has a miscast Iron Cross medallion right on his chest? The one that was the very first one GW showed us in Monday's blog post introudcing Finecast?
Or an Autarch with several bubbles the break the shape of things like gems and feathers? From that same post?
Or the Blood Knight with a nice bubble in his gorget? Right in that post, too.
Or the horse for the mounted Gandalf that has had detail sanded right out? Same post.
Or the Skulltaker who has bubbles obliterating the sharp points on on his shoulder armor? The one GW is using to showcase how wonderful these are to work with in today's blog post.
These are more than just "dab some superglue" in types of issues. Some can be handled with a touch of putty work, but others are getting to the point of having to resculpt portions of the models. And these are the ones GW is showcasing on their website.
GW has repeatedly made the case that this is a "new age" for miniatures and a boon for hobbyists, and justify their "premium prices" because they sell a "premium product". A premium product would not display these kinds of issues, especially not as bad as some of these are turning out. GW has dug their own hole in this matter. If they had just said, "We're switching to resin to try and control costs" they wouldn't be being raked over the coals like this. But they are spinning out all this hype, making this into the greatest thing that's ever happened to miniatures, and the results we are seeing, including the very examples they are showing, fall short of that. In some cases, they fall short of "guy in his garage knocking out some models in his spare time."
15894
Post by: Mistress of minis
You guys do realize it takes GW years, if ever, to admit they make mistakes?
Best example I can think of is the old hex pots with the screw tops they started selling when 3rd editions came out.
They had an excellent product with the previous line of the old pop-top jars (of which I still use several that are almost 20 years old) and replaced it with paint of lower quality and a terrible pot design that dried up within days after opening it.
They blamed their consumers for not closing the jars properly and admitted no guilt. It wasnt until other companies stepped in and provided a superior product (Thank you Vallejo and Reaper!) that GW took notice and started correcting the defective paint pots.
With Finecast- they boasted that it will make the 'best miniatures in the world'. When you talk BS to that extreme- you better be able to back it up and wow people with the product- otherwise you're falling short of your own claims and you lose even more trust.
18698
Post by: kronk
I'm willing to work around a flaw here or there. I don't mind running a warped piece under hot water to straighten it and I'm pretty good at removing flashing. I accept cleaning up flash as part of the hobby. However, if I got the following I'd ask for a refund or a replacement.
Also, air bubbles are a big no-no. If they can be covered up by a backpack or a shoulder pad or if I could put a crusader seal (purity seal to you non-Templars) over it, fine. But if it's right in the middle of a symbol on his chest or shin guard or whatever then no. I'm not going to work around it. Refund or replace, please.
Especially considering the cost of these resin pieces. I think I'm being a pretty reasonable guy about this.
15094
Post by: pixelpusher
puma713 wrote:Right. Instead, they said the exact opposite. But. . . that's okay? We should just accept it because, "big companies lie all the time"?
No. I would't say "accept it". But I wouldn't use "they said" when we all know that the truth usually is pretty far from what a company says in a press release about their new product. Especially Games Workshop...
Some posters in this thread act kinda surprised when the press release isn't holding up to it's promises. Might be just me having to read through a ton of press releases & corporate publications and getting used to it / getting bitter? I wouldn't rule out the latter tbh
1036
Post by: fullheadofhair
Ouze wrote:Kanluwen wrote:I mean, ffs, the guy who supposedly 'bought' this Terminator Librarian didn't notice that the storm bolter was terribly miscast even though it's a clear package and the part was in plain sight on the most visible part of the sprue? You're really going to say that doesn't set off warning bells in your head?
So, to your thinking, this guys specifically picked the worst casting available to cast GWS in a bad light (to no discernible end), while simultaneously assuming good faith in not speculating that GWS probably didn't cherry-pick out the best casts available to them for use with the "Whats new today" page (to a rather obvious end)? I thinking you are warping your logic to fit your desire, there.
That being said, the bottom line here still is, at best, we don't know what the product is going to look like until it's released. Retail packaging aside, you're right in that the source is dubious, at best. Looking at GWS's track record in miniature production, one of the issues they have never really had was a poorly produced product (lets not debate sculpting quality). Sure, FW quality blows, but GWS is not FW. Their product has always been technically well produced and so in this specific aspect of their business, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I've gotten a few miscast parts (who hasn't) but they are pretty well the exception, rather then the rule, and the rarity of such has always been within my personal margin of error. The fact they have never once ever hedged on their customer service with issues like that also makes me not too worried with this (although again, better to not miscast in the first place then the handle the returns gracefully).
So we should probably wait and see.
I am with Kan on this one. Who doesn;t look at a mini to check casting regardless of manufacturer - it was the case with metals and would definitely be the case with this. Heck, I used to double check Rackham metals and we all can acknowledge that their casting was pretty dang hot.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Delephont wrote:Kanluwen wrote: I wouldn't accept subpar manufacturing from a car company because [i]subpar automobiles can cause accidents which kill people
no, you have saftey critical systems on a car, but you also have systems which are not safety critical like your I.C.E (In Car Entertainment) things like Screens in your rear head rests which don't display, or excess noise on your audio system becuase of EMC (Electro Magnetic Compatibility) issues.....these things won't kill you, but they will piss you off.
I'd put these in the same category as me trying to get a replacement part or the like from GW directly(my LGS doesn't stock metals, and it takes the same amount of time for them to get their shipment as it does for me to buck the feth up and file a bit of flash away, then resculpt it).
In both cases, there's people you can talk to and get things fixed. To pretend that because your I.C.E. won't function correctly there's no choice but a replacement car(which in some cases might be true) is the same as a single miscast piece on a sprue is ridiculous.
Further to your point. While I have certainly read that "miniatures come unpainted and require assembly" i don't believe I've ever read, anywhere that I would need to resculpt my miniature....would you care to cite where you have read this and provide proof. I will humbly stand corrected if you can, seriously.
You and I both know damned well that they haven't said that you'd need to "resculpt your miniature", just like none of these "HIDEOUS MISCASTS" would actually require someone to sculpt the entire miniature again. Overreact more please.
32303
Post by: Snarky
legion4500 wrote:
Secondly - greenstuff loves the new stuff too. I rebuilt the power cable on top of the staff. The pinholes are gonna need something else though. There used to be a product my Mr Hobby for filling in pinholes in resin (used it when building gundams). I wonder if they still make it
They sure do! It's called Mr. Surfacer, the Mr. Surfacer 500 comes out blotchy on resin, but the 1000 works wonders. Have no idea on how it'll come on the new resin-plastic hybrids.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
I have seen my fair share of miscast metals as well. Many times I have gotten a model home to then see a horrible mold line, a part that didn't fill in all the way or some other horrible flaw.
Even though I can see through the blister, and I bought it flawed, I just return it and all is well.
With the maybe 500 metal models I own, the flawed percentage has been reasonably low and acceptable to the point I still don't normally check thoroughly when buying a blister. I hope the finecast stuff is 'similar' in it is just eventually a low number which the worst I am out is a trip back to the store for a replacement.
While I don't like the idea of having to check a ton of models for bubble holes and resin flaws, I hope they will just be minimal. If GW refuses to replace a model I feel is flawed beyond my reasonable acceptance, then I will get my broom and declare shenanigans, but I have never reached that point with GW as every flawed mini froM GW and forgeworld they have easily replaced with minimal effort.
27970
Post by: themocaw
It comes down to this: Finecast is supposed to offer unsurpassed detail. It's not supposed to make you sculpt that unsurpassed detail yourself.
40455
Post by: bushido
I don't get it. People are upset because a product can't possibly live up to its hype? Do you watch a movie trailer and think it's a perfect representation of the quality and plot of the film? Yours must be a wonderful, magical world to live in.
It's been this way since there were guys selling their "Cure-Alls" from the back of their covered wagons as they traveled from town to town. A company isn't going to say, "Buy our product! It's pretty average!"
I chuckle at those who say they rushed out and ordered 342039423 pieces of an untested product...sight unseen. Give it a little time for them to work out the kinks. Otherwise, caveat emptor.
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