Hello,
This is a message from Kickstarter’s Integrity team. We're writing to inform you that a project you backed, Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game, is the subject of an intellectual property dispute.
The law requires that we remove the project from public view until the dispute is resolved (please see our Copyright Policy and Trademark Policy for more info). Because the project already ended successfully, your pledge hasn’t been affected. The creator should still be able to move forward with the project (and send any unfulfilled rewards). If you have any questions, though, you can still message the creator from the project page.
Thanks so much for your patience and cooperation,
Kickstarter
Whoa, I just got this in my email. I don't get it, they clearly have all the right permissions / are paying royalties to Fox. What could the IP dispute be over?
So, um, did anyone else just get the email from KS about an IP dispute?
Edit: Huh, I guess so. I suspect that some other board game or miniatures company has challenged Prodos over the right to produce some specific part of the game (or.. I wonder if someone did a 180 on those arcade game characters). As you say, Prodos have been working with FOX directly and if anyone knows who holds the rights to their materials, you would think it was them..
2nd edit: Yeah I reckon it's either because of Dutch and Lin, or some company like Predastore just found a piece of paper down the back of the sofa where FOX gave them permission to make Predator minis. .
3rd edit: Or it could be something that was in the rules which were recently published. Maybe a piece of art that features in the document, or someone is claiming that Prodos copied their rules.
The "your pledge hasn’t been affected. The creator should still be able to move forward with the project (and send any unfulfilled rewards)" sounds like BS. If there is a real IP dispute no way the IP holder allows production to continue unless they work it out. Fox won't care a bit that Prodos owes us anything, and I suspect their lawyers are bigger than the ones Prodos can afford.
Hopefully it does involve just the video game characters or some small part...
Could be a trademark troll. Could be something not related to the actual product, like a font or stock image element. Could be Prodos messed up and Fox decided to terminate the agreements.
Can Prodos even use the KS messaging system given the project was removed? That that they would jump to it right away, it's 11pm in the UK right now.
Well the have been doing demos and stuff where people have seen stuff fox has not officially OKed so it's not impossible they've had the plug pulled,
but I suspect it's more likely its some other company that thinks it has the rights to a specific bit like an actors likeness, a computer game character or something like that playing hard ball in an attempt to be paid off to go away,
remember this is a property that has been around for ages, has been licenced for games/toys/minis/rpg etc many times including to some companies that have folded while in posesion of the licence. It's not impossible that one of these has been written loosely enough that the AvP game might be seen as stepping on toes
You never know, it could be Upper Deck Entertainment. Maybe they finally caught wind of the AvP game, saw some of the unit cards and thought "Heeey! We're the only company allowed to create a card game based on the Aliens franchise."
Random speculation, of course, but if I put up enough theories, one of them is bound to be right!
I am so getting a refund if this goes tits up, they have like $600 of my dollhairs which I'd rather use to pay bills, buy malifaux and battlefoam stuff with on friday, and blow on blackjack and hookers (not in that order)
It started out as just Get to the Chopper... but then they released the playtest points costs and force orgs and I had way more points in Predators than I did in Marines, and way more in Marines than I did in Aliens so I added a Real Aliens set and roughly balanced out the points values of Marines/Aliens/Predators that way. Still not perfectly there, but I think its close enough that with the exp. level system I can get them to parity.
Think it's possible that there is some jumping to conclusions going on here? I don't think we are going to have much more than a minor delay (on top of an already delayed arrival) to be honest.
The game has the backing of the actual owners of the Aliens Vs. Predator Franchise, which is Fox, and if dozens of updates and other info are to be believed Prodos have been in continuous contact with Fox throughout the entirety of this project. We've read, for example, that the Predalien went through about half a dozen resculpts before a compromise was reached between both parties on the design.
So, I think it is fair to assume that Fox haven't suddenly pulled the plug this far in. However, I have read that it's rather easy to get stuff like this happening on KS - i.e. if there is even the slightest whisper of an issue, KS will remove the item from view until the dispute is resolved.
I think it is much more likely that, as has been suggested above, this relates to a minor component of the game (such as the video game characters - although I can't imagine Capcom causing a stink?).
That sales guy for Prodos needs to earn his money though and get an update out pronto, even if he doesn't have full knowledge of every detail there need to be some assurances made here.
Pacific wrote: Think it's possible that there is some jumping to conclusions going on here? I don't think we are going to have much more than a minor delay (on top of an already delayed arrival) to be honest.
The game has the backing of the actual owners of the Aliens Vs. Predator Franchise, which is Fox, and if dozens of updates and other info are to be believed Prodos have been in continuous contact with Fox throughout the entirety of this project. We've read, for example, that the Predalien went through about half a dozen resculpts before a compromise was reached between both parties on the design.
So, I think it is fair to assume that Fox haven't suddenly pulled the plug this far in. However, I have read that it's rather easy to get stuff like this happening on KS - i.e. if there is even the slightest whisper of an issue, KS will remove the item from view until the dispute is resolved.
I think it is much more likely that, as has been suggested above, this relates to a minor component of the game (such as the video game characters - although I can't imagine Capcom causing a stink?).
That sales guy for Prodos needs to earn his money though and get an update out pronto, even if he doesn't have full knowledge of every detail there need to be some assurances made here.
A thousand times this. I'm having fun with all the crazy speculation on Facebook, but I'm honestly not that worried.
Presumably, everyone gets a refund if it goes south.
Yeah right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: Think it's possible that there is some jumping to conclusions going on here? I don't think we are going to have much more than a minor delay (on top of an already delayed arrival) to be honest.
The game has the backing of the actual owners of the Aliens Vs. Predator Franchise, which is Fox, and if dozens of updates and other info are to be believed Prodos have been in continuous contact with Fox throughout the entirety of this project. We've read, for example, that the Predalien went through about half a dozen resculpts before a compromise was reached between both parties on the design.
So, I think it is fair to assume that Fox haven't suddenly pulled the plug this far in. However, I have read that it's rather easy to get stuff like this happening on KS - i.e. if there is even the slightest whisper of an issue, KS will remove the item from view until the dispute is resolved.
I think it is much more likely that, as has been suggested above, this relates to a minor component of the game (such as the video game characters - although I can't imagine Capcom causing a stink?).
That sales guy for Prodos needs to earn his money though and get an update out pronto, even if he doesn't have full knowledge of every detail there need to be some assurances made here.
Seems funny to chastise folks about jumping to conclusions, and then present your scenario, in other words jump to a conclusion yourself.
Unless you recently bought a pledge from the webstore, you're charge is way over the 6 month old where your credit card company can do anything.
Those are pretty certain. Perhaps Prodos on their own initiative comes up with the cash to refund everyone. I wouldn't count on it since they are going to be able to show they spent the money they collected in a good faith effort to produce the game.
Call that doomsaying, but folks successfully getting a refund when a KS project goes tango uniform is the exception, not the norm. The further from project funding period you go, the harder it is.
Best bet, and hopefully what happens, is the issue is resolved and Prodos delivers. Refunds just are not likely.
Alex C wrote: As I didn't go through KS, but rather through Paypal, I'm hoping I'm on better footing for a refund.
PayPal recently extended their protest/refund period. I'm not sure if you paid before that went into effect or not, or if it may be retroactive for a certain period. If' you're remotely interested in a refund you may want to check, and figure out when your last 'Ask for a refund or it is too late' day is to see how long you want to allow for this to shake out.
Hello everyone. Sorry to cause panic. We (Prodos Games) have made a clerical error when cleaning up our Kickstarter maintenance page. If you go to up you will see that there are two un-started projects. We were hoping to get them deleted (just to tidy up our work space), but didn't convey our request clearly. As such the AvP website has been temporarily closed in error. We are working to get it back up. Hopefully it will return in all its glory within 24 hours. Sorry to panic everyone. (Just goes to show a tidy workspace isn't always the best thing)!
Hello everyone. Sorry to cause panic. We (Prodos Games) have made a clerical error when cleaning up our Kickstarter maintenance page. If you go to up you will see that there are two un-started projects. We were hoping to get them deleted (just to tidy up our work space), but didn't convey our request clearly. As such the AvP website has been temporarily closed in error. We are working to get it back up. Hopefully it will return in all its glory within 24 hours. Sorry to panic everyone. (Just goes to show a tidy workspace isn't always the best thing)!
Presumably, everyone gets a refund if it goes south.
Yeah right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: Think it's possible that there is some jumping to conclusions going on here? I don't think we are going to have much more than a minor delay (on top of an already delayed arrival) to be honest.
The game has the backing of the actual owners of the Aliens Vs. Predator Franchise, which is Fox, and if dozens of updates and other info are to be believed Prodos have been in continuous contact with Fox throughout the entirety of this project. We've read, for example, that the Predalien went through about half a dozen resculpts before a compromise was reached between both parties on the design.
So, I think it is fair to assume that Fox haven't suddenly pulled the plug this far in. However, I have read that it's rather easy to get stuff like this happening on KS - i.e. if there is even the slightest whisper of an issue, KS will remove the item from view until the dispute is resolved.
I think it is much more likely that, as has been suggested above, this relates to a minor component of the game (such as the video game characters - although I can't imagine Capcom causing a stink?).
That sales guy for Prodos needs to earn his money though and get an update out pronto, even if he doesn't have full knowledge of every detail there need to be some assurances made here.
Seems funny to chastise folks about jumping to conclusions, and then present your scenario, in other words jump to a conclusion yourself.
I hoped I was presenting a reasoned explanation for what might come of it. Rather than what seemed to be happening, which was someone noticing that they had a spot on their hand and then running around in a circle screaming because they were sure that they were developing the bubonic plague
This does seem a bit odd though - while organising their Kickstarters, someone accidentally hit the 'Mark this KS as subject of IP dispute button'?
Sad to hear that this seems to be the straw that has broken the camel's back now though with refunds being requested, I think we were almost there..
I never was worried, i saw the models and the game in Antwerp last month and spoke to the developers, this game is SOOOooo definately coming...
I love AvP since the first comics in the late 80's/90's (and have the originals) and above all I love Predators.
And the Prodos ones are exactly what they should be, especially in size (in relation to humans).
Bigger than Space Marines, but more detail and realistic build.
The aliens and humans are great too off course...
And i have not read all of the pages of this topic, but they spoke of this game as the start, which will be quickly followed by a skirmish level game and it might grow to a bigger level wargame later on.
They have all AvP licences, so can make anything ever written or seen in movies.
Presumably, everyone gets a refund if it goes south.
Yeah right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: Think it's possible that there is some jumping to conclusions going on here? I don't think we are going to have much more than a minor delay (on top of an already delayed arrival) to be honest.
The game has the backing of the actual owners of the Aliens Vs. Predator Franchise, which is Fox, and if dozens of updates and other info are to be believed Prodos have been in continuous contact with Fox throughout the entirety of this project. We've read, for example, that the Predalien went through about half a dozen resculpts before a compromise was reached between both parties on the design.
So, I think it is fair to assume that Fox haven't suddenly pulled the plug this far in. However, I have read that it's rather easy to get stuff like this happening on KS - i.e. if there is even the slightest whisper of an issue, KS will remove the item from view until the dispute is resolved.
I think it is much more likely that, as has been suggested above, this relates to a minor component of the game (such as the video game characters - although I can't imagine Capcom causing a stink?).
That sales guy for Prodos needs to earn his money though and get an update out pronto, even if he doesn't have full knowledge of every detail there need to be some assurances made here.
Seems funny to chastise folks about jumping to conclusions, and then present your scenario, in other words jump to a conclusion yourself.
I hoped I was presenting a reasoned explanation for what might come of it. Rather than what seemed to be happening, which was someone noticing that they had a spot on their hand and then running around in a circle screaming because they were sure that they were developing the bubonic plague
This does seem a bit odd though - while organising their Kickstarters, someone accidentally hit the 'Mark this KS as subject of IP dispute button'?
Sad to hear that this seems to be the straw that has broken the camel's back now though with refunds being requested, I think we were almost there..
Actually, since they mention wanting two unstarted programs to no longer be visible in their profile, it makes some sense; there's a good chance KS simply doesn't have another support/complaint code to quickly do that without fuss and they figured projects that never started have no backers anyway, so the net result would work out.
Of course, it rather escalates what should be a minor issue I'd you also include the wrong project Just guessing, but knowing the inflexibility of this sort of system on the support interface side of things, usually, it'd make sense for this to be the case.
Hello everyone. Sorry to cause panic. We (Prodos Games) have made a clerical error when cleaning up our Kickstarter maintenance page. If you go to up you will see that there are two un-started projects. We were hoping to get them deleted (just to tidy up our work space), but didn't convey our request clearly. As such the AvP website has been temporarily closed in error. We are working to get it back up. Hopefully it will return in all its glory within 24 hours. Sorry to panic everyone. (Just goes to show a tidy workspace isn't always the best thing)!
I'm relieved to hear this, and somewhat amused by the whole thing now, but man. That was one whopper of a clerical blunder.
My heart goes out to fans of the canceled projects. I know the prospect of a My Little Pony vs. Aliens vs. Predator KS was generating a lot of excitement here.
Hahahahahaha, well that was a fun 5 minutes. Didn't get to check emails or Dakka since Tuesday, so when I went to my Inbox just now I was laughing like a crazy person on the first message from Kickstarter - then went to crying like another crazy person on PRODOS' all clear... Phew...
KS needs to fix their system. If a screw up while cleaning up generates an IP issue email from KS, that is just wrong. There are many better messages KS could send out, even a simple "The project has been removed from public view at the request of the project creator." It would still lead to speculation but not automatically throw in IP issues as the reason.
Having said that, since it was Prodos who made the mistake, surely it should not take them very long to get KS to reinstate the project since there is no IP issue...
Well hopefully that's all that happened and the game is still on the way.
Still would like my refund, but I may be out of luck on that front. This isn't the only thing that has bothered me about fulfillment and Prodos' operations.
the KS page will be up soon, new ticket is created, the page was removed by mistake, bad working in email sent to KS "we ask to hide the other pages..." ended up with this mess.
we meant to remove the ones bonded to this the AvP KS, un-starterd ones:
"Hello everyone. Sorry to cause panic. We (Prodos Games) have made a clerical error when cleaning up our Kickstarter maintenance page. If you go to up you will see that there are two un-started projects. We were hoping to get them deleted (just to tidy up our work space), but didn't convey our request clearly. As such the AvP website has been temporarily closed in error. We are working to get it back up. Hopefully it will return in all its glory within 24 hours. Sorry to panic everyone. (Just goes to show a tidy workspace isn't always the best thing)!"
Alex C wrote: Well hopefully that's all that happened and the game is still on the way.
Still would like my refund, but I may be out of luck on that front. This isn't the only thing that has bothered me about fulfillment and Prodos' operations.
I think what might seem unlucky for you now might actually turn out to be lucky for you
Honestly, if you're a big fan of the IP (guessing you are with that avatar!) then you surely have to agree that some of these miniatures look absolutely fething awesome. Speaking personally, I can't tell you how long I've been waiting for some good predator/alien/marine miniatures. I guess since I first saw some of the earlier movies, more than 20 years ago.
My biggest reservation at present is the game mechanics and whether the game will be fun/worthwhile to play. Although, even if they are terrible I will still be happy with my investment just to get the minis (although YMMV over this point, depending on how big a fan you are of the franchise/how happy just to collect minis etc.)
I suppose at least you will have the luxury of getting at retail at a later date Alex.
Have changed my avatar also for the time being to celebrate the coming of this game, Tim Curry will have to wait until the game has been released (whenever that may be!)
Prodos KS Email message wrote:Prodos Games Ltd says:
As you may be aware we have removed the ‘Alien vs Predator Board Game’ Kickstarter page.
We recognise that the closed site holding page says that there is an IP issue with this project. Unfortunately Kickstarter do not allow any other default page.
Please be assured though that the Game is still in development (we are in the latter stages of licensor approvals) and we will continue to keep you updated.
These updates will continue via the Kickstarter email list and via our website newsletter. You can also join our official forum at forum.prodosgames.com and follow us on Facebook (www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd) or Twitter (@ProdosGames).
The pledge manager will remain open until shortly after the final products are shown, therefore allowing you to continue to adjust the products you have selected. You will receive due notice of closure of the Pledge Manager one week before it closes via the newsletter and your KS email.
Keep an eye on your email for updates.
If you have any queries or questions, please don’t hesitate to contact Prodos Games customer services manager at agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk.
Thank you again for your support
Prodos Games LTD.
So I got the message above which sounded rather ominous and led me to believe they would not be bringing the page back. I then asked them if they would be restoring the page, and recieved this response:
Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Nov 27, 2014
Report Spam
We are trying, however some backer comments/info must be edited. We will keep you guys updated. Sorry for inconvenience. You are more than welcome to join our Forum page, were we have a bit more control over the written content. Thanks.
So... I think there was no accident. I now believe that Fox made them take down the page due to negative comments directed at them.
It might be that Fox just aren't familiar with the vitriolic tone that some of this hobby's forums and public places can take (although one would have thought that if they had ever been involved with a computer game, they would have seen much worse?)
I still wouldn't be overly concerned by this, the miniatures and game are made and aren't going to be stopped over something so trivial. Although, this won't be doing any favours for Prodos' sales...
Disturbing Avatar Mr Pacific - I still shudder somewhat when I watch the facehugger scenes with Mr Hurt...
Haha, thanks, yes I do too! Don't think anything else in the series matches it..
Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Nov 27, 2014
Report Spam
We are trying, however some backer comments/info must be edited. We will keep you guys updated. Sorry for inconvenience. You are more than welcome to join our Forum page, were we have a bit more control over the written content. Thanks.
Seems to indicate there was no accident, and that they don't really intend to bring the KS page back.
So yeah, I question their integrity. It would not be the first time they have been less that honest and forthcoming.
I received the following letter in my email today at 10:13 AM PST:
As you may be aware we have removed the ‘Alien vs Predator Board Game’ Kickstarter page.
We recognise that the closed site holding page says that there is an IP issue with this project. Unfortunately Kickstarter do not allow any other default page.
Please be assured though that the Game is still in development (we are in the latter stages of licensor approvals) and we will continue to keep you updated.
These updates will continue via the Kickstarter email list and via our website newsletter. You can also join our official forum at forum.prodosgames.com and follow us on Facebook (www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd) or Twitter (@ProdosGames).
The pledge manager will remain open until shortly after the final products are shown, therefore allowing you to continue to adjust the products you have selected. You will receive due notice of closure of the Pledge Manager one week before it closes via the newsletter and your KS email.
Keep an eye on your email for updates.
If you have any queries or questions, please don’t hesitate to contact Prodos Games customer services manager at agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk.
Sorry Orlando, and please don't take this as a slight against you, but this sounds really suss. While I'm not doubting we'll get our stuff, there's no way I'd put more cash into this or recommend anyone else doing so.
This most worrying thing is that's it's possible for KS creators to delete their own page along with the ability for backers to communicate with each other. Surely that can't be as easy as, whoops.
You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?
It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.
Pacific wrote: You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?
It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.
I think the implication is not that Prodos are trying to do a runner with our cash - clearly that would be difficult for them, but that they have been less than honest with their reasoning behind the current situation. Given the number of other times they've been less than forthcoming with the truth over the course of this project - 3D terrain redesigns (still not forthcoming), clear predators, young bloods, pre-xmas delivery (or not), delivery won't be in waves, then it will - box first, then it will but it will be figures firt and before Xmas (but they haven't closed the PM yet, so given we're now at the start of December they stand no chance of delivering a bean before Xmas), rules that were promised and then didn't appear for 6 months, promised updates that never happened etc etc etc, the question is why would we automatically believe them this time round?
But let's assume for 5 minutes that the IP message on KS is nothing more than a clerical error brought about by Prodos requesting the removal of the two inactive dummy projects. Let's assume that Kickstarter miss-understood their request and hid the active project instead - lets's assume that KS would even do that - hide a project that is active and yet to deliver - let's also assume that Kickstarter have absolutely no way of doing this other than to put up an IP Dispute message despite the fact that there is no IP dispute (apparently). Now that's an awful lot of assumption .... and not a single bit of it explains why, at the same time, Prodos stripped every single image that had anything to do with the project off their Facebook sites. Every single one. Note - they didn't just delete all images on the page - they left all the fanboy stuff as far as we can see, they only removed their images or any images that others had posted of the AvP product. Kickstarter obviously didn't have a hand in that - it was Prodos, and only Prodos (or their representatives).
At one point Prodos claimed that the removal of Facebook images was a panic reaction when they saw the IP message on KS. They didn't know what was happening so they panicked. Don't you think, if everything was fine and dandy between them and Fox, they might have picked a phone up and spoken to their partner (and IP holder) before such a knee jerk reaction? Why strip images off Facebook if you don't know why the IP message is up on KS? Why not wait until you receive an explanation of the situation from KS and/or Fox? Fox are one of the largest holders of this sort of IP in the world. If it was a third party company trying to stick the boot in (as some have postulated) I very much doubt Fox would have nothing to say - they'd stand their ground and then swat the 3rd party like a fly, so the message on KS has to be nothing more than a clerical error (really?) or Fox themselves.
If you believe the first event - the KS story, then the Facebook story makes no sense. Actually the FB story makes no sense whichever way you spin it. Together they add up to some sort of cease and desist being issued by the IP holder. That they still - 36 hours later - haven't replaced a single image - no "here's photos of our product line taken at XYZ, we're working on other images" or whatever, to me suggests that they are not being allowed to, and since such imagery posted would strongly suggest everything is fine with Fox and the IP, the lack of it also strongly suggests that all is not fine.
So are Prodos being honest about what's happening here? I don't think so.
Are they intending to defraud us? No - I don't believe that either
Can they tell us what's really happening? Evidently not.
My view is that something has happened with the relationship between Prodos and Fox that has potentially caused Fox to pull the plug. I'm hoping they haven't, and I'm certainly hoping there are still avenues of dialog between the two companies, but something must have happened. There's just no other explanation that makes any sense or holds up to any scrutiny. I believe there is a game. We've seen most of the models - and even seen those completed - thousands of them. We've seem most of the other components, we've seen the rules. The game exists. That doesn't necessarily mean it is a game that Fox are prepared to put their name behind any longer for whatever reason (I'd suggest they are very very precious as to what is released with their name on it), and so they could have pulled the plug entirely or be renegotiating the licencing agreement - who knows.
Lastly - a thought about money. Prodos collected about 375k from the KS (less fees) and a very significant further amount so far from the pledge manager. There's rarely a great deal of profit in these things, and they've had expensive redesigns to do with some components. My guess is they've spent most of that cash in the design and manufacture process. If this project really has gone to hell in a handcart, they would have to find funds from elsewhere to refund backers. I suspect as a company they are asset rich rather than cash rich - just not big enough to be cash rich. This sort of problem could potentially bankrupt them.
I hope everything I've written above turns out to be incorrect analysis, but they aren't doing much to convince me otherwise right now.
I'm starting to regret backing this one and will freely admit that I was overwhelmed with "shiny" syndrome at the cool models. I backed it knowing that people weren't that happy with Prodos' handling of Warzone's KS, and now I'm starting to see why.
Communication has been poor, and while I don't believe they are planning to skip town with the cash, I do get the feeling that they aren't in control and my cash is at more of a risk than I'd like. This is exacerbated by the latest saga over the KS page, and there seems to be a purge of stuff on the facebook page too along with a general lack of communication from anyone at Prodos.
Having to strip pictures from everywhere on the web for some basic IP communication issues, and kill the KS page (or at least keep it killed) to remove unhappy comments smacks of incompetence, and I don't like to tie up chucks of money with incompetent people.
The models look gorgeous, but I'm beginning to wish I'd waited for retail.
As to KS only having the 'IP' issues screen to put up for a removed project, that I believe
(having seen project creators asking to have failed and unlaunched projects removed and being told they can't)
it's not so much that there are no other screens to use, it's that KS does not remove anything except under legal threat where they might be liable for something which is why they have an IP screen
but
I'd not spotted all the AVP stuff on facebook had gone (and the AVP section of the website is now totally gone rather than just being empty as it was when this broke)
and it is a bit worrying that now Prodos 'know' this was just a KS mix-up they've not put it all back up by now
Do I still think this started with a screw-up by Prodos ?
yes I do (although I wonder now if it was one of their own comments that had to go perhaps with a link to something they'd not had the ok to show which caused them to make an incoherent request to KS that resulted in the IP screen)
but the faster they get the approved images back up and the appropriate bit of their website reopened the happier I'll be
Do I still think this started with a screw-up by Prodos ?
yes I do (although I wonder now if it was one of their own comments that had to go perhaps with a link to something they'd not had the ok to show which caused them to make an incoherent request to KS that resulted in the IP screen)
Prodos have blamed Fox a number of times for the delays in getting the product out or the delays in showing us this or that component. It's always Fox that's to blame. Maybe they've decided they don't like being criticised by their licence holder any more - let's face it, biting the boss is rarely good business practice.
Pacific wrote: You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?
It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.
That KS should make it impossible for idiots to delete their own project.
Pacific wrote: You really think a company which already has existing mininature lines and a wide variety of product lines on sale, its own production facilities, and a contract with a company as big as Fox, is likely to do a 'moonlight' or something and skip town with pledgers money?
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply joyboozer?
It's a cock up, plain and simple. What's the saying about not seeing something as malicious when you can blame incompetence? I think that probably applies here.
That KS should make it impossible for idiots to delete their own project.
I'm thinking they have, which means this really IS an IP dispute ....
There are countless cases of projects that failed for one reason or another, some of which I'm quite sure the creators would hide if they could. Keeping them on file and viewable means potential backers can look back through a company's history and make a more informed choice. That would be one reason why KS would not want creators to remove redundant projects.
It could be that Fox is not okay with some of the pre-approval prototypes displayed on the KS page / updates. Prodos said they reported their own project, and likely were hoping for a "happier" takedown message to comply with Fox, but this is the only option. Does seem very amateur, though!
I'm not sure what to think here. I don't believe them to be shysters or trying to rip us off. I just don't think that there is the correct ammount of transparancy in their communications and actions. Back in August I recieved a private message from Prodos on Kickstarter, that I was asked to keep to myself, and in the spirit of that I won't copy and post that message here, however, I do want to share on tiny piece of it. They mentioned that they were at that time already in trouble with Fox over negative backers comments that could be damaging to Fox's reputation. That is one of the reasons I can't believe that story about the accidental removal of the page. Adding to that the news about the Facebook removal of pictures, etc., make me now worry about when and if we are able to get this game now. I don't see how Fox can hold Prodos accountable for backers comments either positive or negative. I wonder if it may of had something to do with one of Prodos' own comments on the delays? Either way, its all speculation. Prodos' refusal to communicate in any kind of clear way makes it really hard to know what is going on. I really don't believe that we can do anything other than wait and see, and hope for the best!
Not that my memory is great or anything, but the negative comments I remember reading in the comments section (and the ones I remember typing) were either disparaging of Prodos and their poor communications/poor decisions, or when critical of Fox, were generally piggybacking/replying to what Prodos had posted (where they either implied Fox was to blame or actually blamed Fox for issues).
I believe if Prodos had been better at communicating from the get go, the issues of negativity may have still risen, but nowhere near the level they did.
Honestly the current situation is a good example. An upfront explanation before the action would have mitigated the speculation and backlash.
"We're going to take down the KS page and FB images because speculation and comments are causing issues with our final approval process. We'll continue to update you via XXXXX and the project is moving forward with a new estimated completion of YYYY. That new estimate is subject to change due to the following factors A, B, C, D; and maybe even other factors we don't know about yet, BUT we will keep you informed."
I find it very suspicious that their explanations as posted here in the thread involved telling folks that to join their forum where they can moderate comments better. That twice repeated tidbit has nothing to do with an "accidental" taking down of the KS page. The apparent removal of everything AVP from other public outlets is further evidence that something beyond just a "whoopsie, did I do that?" happened.
I agree with CptJake - having read an awful lot of what was written in the comments section, I can't recall anything that was particularly damaging to Fox's reputation. Sure there has been criticism of the way Prodos has run the kickstarter, largely revolving around issues of poor communication, but seriously, most kickstarters have that. Any criticism of Fox has mostly been about the delays, and we only know (or rather assume) that the delays are at least in part Fox's fault because Prodos have gone to great pains to tell us so.
Besides, even if Fox had got real grief over this KS, they have thicker skins than that. You find me any forum that discusses any part of the 21st Century Fox stable of companies, and I'll find you a post that levels a complaint at them. Whether it be how bad their US news coverage is, or how they cancelled Firefly after just one series, Fox has never been one to worry too much about getting slated, they just keep going on with the business of making money. If they tried to censor anyone who's ever had a bad word to say about them, there'd be so many law suits it would be unreal. A quick glance from them at the comments sections and various forums would show them very quickly that while there are a percentage of backers who are upset with one thing or another, pretty much all backers are largely happy with most of the product, and all are eager to get the game. They have a captured fan base of people who want the product rather than a baying mob hoping they fail and die in a fire. That's kinda the thing about KS - people back a project because they want to help the project succeed and they want to share in the benefits, not because they intrinsically hate it.
So imho it isn't that. It's far more likely to be to do with things Prodos have said about Fox. They've been very negative at times and given the two have a business relationship, that does reflect very badly (arguably on both).
It's actually quite insulting that Prodos have insinuated that the current situation might be the result of backers' actions. Not content with being critical of Fox, they are now critical of us.
and as you say, they still fail to communicate effectively.
In slightly related news, Amazon (US) has the Alien Anthology 6 disc set on Blue Ray on sale today. If you want to update those old VHS tapes to more modern tech, now is the time.
Wow that is an absolute steal at that price...I've got the films on blu-ray, but its the basic 'directors cut' versions.
Interesting comments there biggusdoggus and well reasoned - hopefully we will see more on the communications front, have to agree that it has been abysmal.
Wonder how much of it is the fact that it's primarily a Polish company, and the whole language/culture difference? I'm just looking for causes here..
I mean looking at the company sizes, Prodos is actually bigger in terms of numbers (staff) than Mantic, yet the way each company has handled the comms for their Kickstarters (aside from anything else), as well as just a general level of professionalism, is absolutely incomparable. And Prodos have the massive license..
CptJake wrote: In slightly related news, Amazon (US) has the Alien Anthology 6 disc set on Blue Ray on sale today. If you want to update those old VHS tapes to more modern tech, now is the time.
Jake
Still got mine on DVD.. and in a 25th Anniversary Alien head
Not sure about that bit above the neck, but otherwise it's pretty sweet.
Gotta admit... that is a cool DVD case. It's much better than the Halo helmet that only fit SPARTAN kitty cats! My best one so far is the first transformers movie case. It was a pretty disappointing movie but the DVD case actually transformed into a robot itself.
So... I think there was no accident. I now believe that Fox made them take down the page due to negative comments directed at them."
Rather suspect their is more to that statement than anything else with some of the KS trolls demanding the game go in a certain direction both game and image wise.
Prodos for a small company and their own range IP, then they could do this and tailor to what most people want, 'you cannot change everything or please everyone'.
However the aspect of Fox changes that, as its not one person they would have to go through, but execs, art directors, IP Lawyers, ect. . Every time a change occurs it goes through this process. And they are like any company jealous of protecting image.
However the 'take all comments to the forum' does start to smack a little of possible issues with some posters, but with a legal team like Fox would have suspect that they have more than one penalty clause about discussing issues over some subjects. Great to keep matters that can affect share prices for Fox but not so much when it comes to a close nit community like the gaming one, where we want to know it all.
so... am I still getting my stuff? Previously Prodos had insinuated that they'd start shipping in waves by now if things hadnt been straightened out over the last few items... I've yet to hear a single word on how thats all coming along and we're 22/23 days from christmas.
If the content comes back approved in time there will be an update at the end of this week. Please be patient a little longer guys. We want you to have your pledges and want to game released.
chaos0xomega wrote: so... am I still getting my stuff? Previously Prodos had insinuated that they'd start shipping in waves by now if things hadnt been straightened out over the last few items... I've yet to hear a single word on how thats all coming along and we're 22/23 days from christmas.
According to the Prodos Games forum, they will be putting out an update this friday, IF, they get the approvals back in time. We are definately getting our stuff, just not likely to see it until next year, in my opinion.
According to Jarek, it won't be this year. Doesn't seem like Prodos knows when they will ship now. From Facebook:
Jarek Ever Sure. I am cleaning it now, and please bear in mind this forum is about the AvP: The Hunt Begins game alone, not about approval process or KS or How bad the Prodos is because they haven't ship the game yet. Please stay on the topic if possible. We won't answer any questions regarding the approval process equally we don't know when we will ship the game, I only know what we have been told that it will be "Soon" at this stage. Ok stay on the topic and don't troll as it's not creative at all.
Wow, they're pretty defensive there when they have no right to be. Asking them about a release date when the project is continually missing successive release dates isn't trolling or off topic. They're the ones missing the release date, not the customers. The customers have every right not to be happy with the situation even if the blame doesn't always deserve to fall at Prodos' feet.
I would like status updates on the stuff they assumedly do control, like the clear resin casting. Since they have already shown the Predator sculpts I think it is safe to think those are already approved by Fox. So showing the production castings in clear resin should be something they may be able to do, and giving an update on how that is coming along even if for some reason they could not show pictures, should be do-able.
Ditto with discussing the rule set progress. We were given access to a draft PDF and a lot of questions about the rules came up on the KS comments section before it was disappeared, Prodos should be able to answer those and give updates as to how the proof reading process is coming along.
There has to be items they can update us on, even with Fox having to approve things.
He's now busy stripping the facebook forum of every post that queries the delays, asks for pics, questions anything. Apparently the forum is no longer to be used to critisise Prodos or Fox, or offer anything deemed non-constructive (read anything that isn't basically kissing ass). Colour me astonished.
He's now busy stripping the facebook forum of every post that queries the delays, asks for pics, questions anything. Apparently the forum is no longer to be used to critisise Prodos or Fox, or offer anything deemed non-constructive (read anything that isn't basically kissing ass). Colour me astonished.
I can't tell if you're really surprised or not; tone is hard to judge in a post. I've never dealt with Prodos personally and only followed Warzone peripherally so I don't know if this is typical for them once things start to go wrong for a while. In any case, they're naive and self serving (to put it mildly) to think that simply wanting information you should have about products you should already have but don't is trolling or non-constructive.
I think I really am surprised. Surprised that any company really thinks the right thing to do when 6 months late on a project is to start removing posts they don't like in a clear attempt to silence those who are expressing concern and doubt. It's the mark of a good company that it can handle criticism with a little honesty and humility, and right now they are so full of fail it's quite unbelievable. This is a PR disaster, and they don't seem to see that.
and to be honest their every move right now confirms my worst fears for the project given recent events with the IP dispute that they have denied exists. If I were Fox, I'd be beating them over the head with a huge great big contractual stick right now.
Just be careful not to use capital letters or exclamation points in case they confuse that with violence like over in that weird "i can skulpts stuff t00!" prehistoric creatures KS.
warboss wrote: Wow, they're pretty defensive there when they have no right to be. Asking them about a release date when the project is continually missing successive release dates isn't trolling or off topic. They're the ones missing the release date, not the customers. The customers have every right not to be happy with the situation even if the blame doesn't always deserve to fall at Prodos' feet.
It's exactly this type of behavior that prompted my refund request.
Doubt I'll get it though.
Just hope my minis come sometime soon so I don't have to deal with Prodos again.
Edit: Jarek going through the facebook comments to delete any bad ones is probably the most attention he's paid to fan input during this whole process...
I'll be very interested in hearing how that pans out.. I'm not in this one very deep, but deep enough that I wouldn't want to lose the money. I really really want the game - actually mostly I want the minis to be fair, but pretty much every fibre of my being is yelling "get out" at the moment.
If they're refusing refunds that would indeed be a very bad development.
All, we have to put some rules in place , as it's getting a bit messy here: We treat this Facebook Group as an official forum for AvP: The Hunt Begins Game only.
So the rules:
1. Treat other members with the respect they deserve. This should go without saying, but treat others like you would like to be treated !
2. The forum language is English only! Please only post in other languages in PM.
3. Please do not spam. The definition of spam is an irrelevant or advertising post. Any post considered spam will be removed.
4. Please do not post threads text in all CAPITALS since this is considered to be shouting and is not necessary.
5. Insulting and flaming or personal attacks against forum staff will be not tolerated.
6. Please be considerate in language you use on the forum, some of our members are younger than others. Swearing is not completely banned, just do not swear unnecessarily, and only use minor words. A filter is in place to safeguard this system.
7. No hacking, selling, and illegal activity, such as torrents and illegal downloads, this will not be tolerated, and if appropriate, may be reported to local authority.
10. Please do not post inappropriate material or offensive statements, I think everyone understands what I mean by this. The policy goes that if you would not feel comfortable viewing it at work, by owners or the IP owner or in front of children or parents, don't post it !
11. Due to level of spam, we'll only accept invites from "real" FB accounts.
Like I said, I doubt I'll get it, but I figured I might as well ask. At this stage I'll be happy with my money back or the stuff I ordered. I just want out of this limbo. I have lost respect for Prodos as an honest company that I want to do business with and the sooner I'm done with them, the better.
I'm referring to Alex C's request for a refund, which is now a week old.
and I'm fully expecting Friday's update to use a lot of words to say very little, but probably have a pop at those of us expressing concern in the process.
biggusdoggus wrote: I'm referring to Alex C's request for a refund, which is now a week old.
and I'm fully expecting Friday's update to use a lot of words to say very little, but probably have a pop at those of us expressing concern in the process.
Sorry, my mistake.
I think your guess on the (hopefully) upcoming update is spot on.
basically anything short of kissing the very ground they walk on is grounds for a post being deleted and for their fanboys to rag on you and try to hound you out of whichever forum you use.
As a mark of remembrance my avatar will stay as it is for the moment; Not only for my love of John Hurt and Facehuggers, but also as a reminder of how we fans are waiting for these minis to arrive
MattRendar wrote: Well I remember hopeful . Being a huge aliens vs predator fan . I just want the miniatures so bad .
Me too. I'm just doing my best to forget about the release date, and when I'm actually going to get the miniatures. Prodos haven't come well out of this, and it would have to be miniature gold in future for me to consider backing them again, but I'm not going to cut my nose now to spite my face by cancelling my pledge.
I also don't think lack of them replying about a refund is also indicative that the project is suddenly about to fail.
biggusdoggus wrote: basically anything short of kissing the very ground they walk on is grounds for a post being deleted and for their fanboys to rag on you and try to hound you out of whichever forum you use.
biggusdoggus wrote: basically anything short of kissing the very ground they walk on is grounds for a post being deleted and for their fanboys to rag on you and try to hound you out of whichever forum you use.
Not quite every forum now, right?
Indeed not quite. There are a few, such as this, that thankfully they can't control with their thought police.
Jarek Ever Thanks, shame that his "forum" is loosing peoples, something unexpected, however, the hate, criticism won't change anything, it's IP product not ours thus it take time to get it approved in fully. Yes Prodos has made some mistakes (like we were not aware that we would have to get an approval on the material we are making models with in the USA (non hazardous paper work ect). but we are learning as well... in the other hand we are in the last stage of approval with Fox, so it's not bad in my opinion, I am waiting for KSs I backed (non-Licensed), one of them almost 1.5 year delayed, another one 1 year, however, even their KS does not required any IP clearance, I wont criticise them as I know how hard work s to fulfilling the KS.
I guess the line I tell my daughter about 'Just because the other kids do it does not make it acceptable or right' kind of fits.
"Well others are late too!!!"
Waawaaawaaaa
I have not seen too much criticism leveled at Prodos for missing their declared deadlines. I have seen a LOT of criticism leveled at them for piss poor communications. Deflecting to 'Others are even later' when that is not the real issue shows either a lack of understanding, or worse, a belief the backers are idiots and can't tell the difference. Maybe even a mix of the two.
richred_uk wrote: I don't think Prodos really 'know' why backers (or some backers) are pissed off with them.
Worryingly I don't feel Prodos 'care' why backers (or some backers) are pissed off with them.
Personally, I believe that the incident that has lead to the heavy-handed moderation and / or the KS page takedown is more significant to the delivery and success of the product than catering to the need for 'answers' coming from their irate backers right now.
Consider the following hypothetical:
Kitsune wrote:Dear license holder. We've observed a lot of negativity on the kickstarter page regarding the upcoming Aliens vs Predator boardgame and the comments we are reading will impact the profitability of the game as long as they remain visible to our target market. In addition, your deferment to us as a company as the reason for the delays to this project is hardly endearing. Unless you gain control of the situation and cease naming this company as the root cause for the negativity we will commence with the termination of this agreement.
In that.. entirely hypothetical situation, Prodos can hardly come out and say "They made us do it". Whatever investment Fox have put into this project so far, it is chump change compared to whatever Prodos have put in to this and Fox wouldn't think twice about canning the project in a second if they feel they need to protect the value of the brand. That's a dip in projected revenue for Q4 and Prodos down the toilet and nobody at Fox would bat an eyelid. Now, make no mistake. I am nobody's cheerleader. I backed WZR and it wasn't until last month that I got the remainder of my pledge. But the mistakes that were made were in line with my expectations of a new company biting off a lot more than they could chew by reviving an IP on that scale.. and when I factor all that in, I found the overall experience to be.. acceptable. I went into the AvP kickstarter knowing all this, knowing that they would have learned a lot from the WZR kickstarter while at the same time making a bunch of new mistakes.. and that's exactly what is happening. I'm not surprised, but neither am I disappointed.
(Kickstarter) money invested in a product they can't finish or sell means no profit for Prodos, and probably.. no Prodos. They aren't big enough yet to take that on the chin. So have Prodos really reached a point where they need to act the way they are acting to prevent more damage to the Fox / Prodos relationship? I can't prove that, but my gut tells me yes. You want the product, Prodos want to get it to you and if there is a better path to do so than the one they are on right now, I am sure they would be taking it.
There is basically only one other company in the wargaming industry that behaves like this, although admittedly Prodos haven't taken the next step of closing down all lines of communication with customers and pretending social media doesn't exist.
In neither case is it acceptable. Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it, and come back grovelling and doing everything they can to try and keep their customers on board. This is basic consumer relations 101, and what they are doing here in terms of accusations flying is not the way to keep customers on board.
Their new customers/sales guy has got a lot of work to do here to repair customer relations.
True, but since Prodos didn't do this during WZR and there were definitely some moments where s**t got real, I have to consider the possibility that they are not calling the shots on communication right now. It's kind of like when I tell my kids that if I hear one more word about fracking Christmas, I'm calling Santa and we're going to call the whole thing off. If one of their friends comes over and asks them what they want for Christmas my kids are wise enough *not* to push their luck and say withim earshot "Oh I'd love to tell you what I want but my dad says that I'm not allowed to talk about Christmas."
Not that I'd say something mean like that! Normally I get to be Good Cop!
Automatically Appended Next Post: ..or to put it in a more relevant context, I work for a big IT corporation who have partnered with numerous smaller companies over the years. If, during the course of the collaboration, the partner was responsible for the public source of information on that project and it was soured with negative feedback.. and the partner started bad-mouthing the Corp when things went off track instead of putting out an approved press release.. heads would most certainly roll. If said partner wanted to continue working on that project after that.. well, there would be many hoops and a crap-ton of jumping.
Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it,
Why?
Why should companies put up with that? There are plenty of us that aren't over entitled complainers to support product lines.
I would think that if a company didn't want to listen to feedback (positive or negative) from backers the easiest way to do that would be to not have any. Crowd source funding is what it is, if you don't have the capital to produce something on your own you get partners. When you get partners you get opinions, entitled or not. Now you can say that backers aren't the same as partners, but I would say that you're wrong. We're both entitled (see what I did there?) to our own opinions. Further, they could keep promises that they have made. Simple rule of business under promise, and over deliver. If they would have followed that, many of the "over entitled" backers wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Just saying...
Fox easily have the funds to have covered design, development and manufacture of this product from their petty cash tin. If we assume that Prodos entered into the relationship with Fox well before launching the KS campaign (and I still wonder why Fox were not even mentioned when the campaign started - no hint of their involvement on the project home page), it stands to reason that the hoard of people they will have had looking at Prodos' plans will have looked closely at Kickstarter and the KS process. They would have known for sure that projects on KS would involve communicating with backers. They would know that backers expect certain things from creators (whether right or wrong) and tend to get pretty vocal when those expectations are not met. They would have seen at least some of Prodos' experience of kickstarter through WZR.
So realistically both parties went into this project knowing full well what would happen if backers were unhappy. They knew they'd get flack. Hell, projects that run pretty much 100% perfectly still get flack - you can't please all of the people all of the time. Has this project got more flack than justified? To be honest I don't think it has. They've taken very little grief over delays, by far the majority would rather wait for the product to be right than get it delivered in a hurry and delivered badly. backers have been hugely supportive whenever they've seen models - I'd be pushed to think of more than a mere handful of criticisms in that regard. They took flack over the tiles and rightly so, what we've seen so far is not of a quality we'd all hope to receive, but the vast majority of the complaints have been about communication and broken promises (promises of communication that is).
They (with the help of Fox of course) could have easily avoided the entire lot by going straight to retail, but instead they took the kickstarter route, no doubt to garner support and excitement in the market. They chose to do it, they knew very well what would happen if (when?) things didn't go to plan, and in failing to communicate, in repeatedly over promising and under delivering, they really only have themselves to blame.
I have no truck with the idea that somehow disgruntled over entitled backers are to blame. Are we entitled? Hell yes, they have our money. We are entitled to fair and honest communication. We are entitled to get what we've ordered, and we are entitled (though they are certainly entitled to ignore) our opinion.
Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it,
Why?
Why should companies put up with that? There are plenty of us that aren't over entitled complainers to support product lines.
When I say 'put up with' I mean that they shouldn't shut down lines of communications with their customers under any circumstances. Even if a company has made some unpopular decisions and made a higher amount of unsatisfied sentiment in those forums, there will still be a much larger percentage who are probably happy or don't care enough to voice discontent. Nonetheless those people might enjoy using the social media, and its free advertising/marketing, feedback etc. for the company. I'm sure you don't need me to explain the benefits of social media.
biggusdoggus wrote: Fox easily have the funds to have covered design, development and manufacture of this product from their petty cash tin. If we assume that Prodos entered into the relationship with Fox well before launching the KS campaign (and I still wonder why Fox were not even mentioned when the campaign started - no hint of their involvement on the project home page), it stands to reason that the hoard of people they will have had looking at Prodos' plans will have looked closely at Kickstarter and the KS process. They would have known for sure that projects on KS would involve communicating with backers. They would know that backers expect certain things from creators (whether right or wrong) and tend to get pretty vocal when those expectations are not met. They would have seen at least some of Prodos' experience of kickstarter through WZR.
So realistically both parties went into this project knowing full well what would happen if backers were unhappy. They knew they'd get flack. Hell, projects that run pretty much 100% perfectly still get flack - you can't please all of the people all of the time. Has this project got more flack than justified? To be honest I don't think it has. They've taken very little grief over delays, by far the majority would rather wait for the product to be right than get it delivered in a hurry and delivered badly. backers have been hugely supportive whenever they've seen models - I'd be pushed to think of more than a mere handful of criticisms in that regard. They took flack over the tiles and rightly so, what we've seen so far is not of a quality we'd all hope to receive, but the vast majority of the complaints have been about communication and broken promises (promises of communication that is).
They (with the help of Fox of course) could have easily avoided the entire lot by going straight to retail, but instead they took the kickstarter route, no doubt to garner support and excitement in the market. They chose to do it, they knew very well what would happen if (when?) things didn't go to plan, and in failing to communicate, in repeatedly over promising and under delivering, they really only have themselves to blame.
I have no truck with the idea that somehow disgruntled over entitled backers are to blame. Are we entitled? Hell yes, they have our money. We are entitled to fair and honest communication. We are entitled to get what we've ordered, and we are entitled (though they are certainly entitled to ignore) our opinion.
Oh, sure. We are all entitled to opinions as backers. I mean, what is it that they say? Opinions are donkey-caves.. everyone has one
But your point about Fox having the funds is telling. You are absolutely right. They have cash coming out of the wazoo so if they really wanted an AvP game, they could have paid for it all out of a fraction of the profit their accounts must make every month. But.. there's risk there. Direct financial risk and also a risk of devaluing the brand if the end result is a bit stinky. That's not where the smart money is. Do you think that FOX paid for Alien Isolation or.. heh Aliens: Colonial Marines?
Instead, you license your IP to somebody who has a business plan to generate the capitol to fund the creation of the product.. someone with a good track record (Gearbox!) or perhaps someone who can do it cheaply and with a margin so good that you don't care. You do the math, figure out what your cut is and decide if the profit you will make from the venture is worth the risk of your investment. And what is the investment? IMHO, FOX are only putting man hours into the project. So, some lawyers, a project manager, a brand manager and maybe 2-3 underlings to actually review the content that Prodos creates. None of them will be working on this project full time and if they weren't working on this, they would be working on the licensing of the same IP to someone else, for some other kind of product. After all, Aliens love underpants.
So the financial risk is minimal and I think what we are seeing now is something to do with the protection FOX wrote into the contract regarding the brand itself. If things get really bad, I could even see the licensee being liable for damages. So maybe FOX should have done more homework on the nature of Kickstater (I don’t think they have previously licensed any of their IP to a kickstarter project before but I could be wrong). Heck, they could probably have hired some of us veteran backers as consultants
It just seems to me that for such a (potentially) trivial investment on the part of FOX, the way to make the deal water tight is to fill the contract with get-out clauses that protect the Aliens brand by allowing FOX to walk away from the table at the slightest whiff of risk.. and the fallout from that.. of pledge fulfillment or the inability to do so.. is none of their problem. It’s all on Prodos. Maybe they performed due diligence after all. Take some of the cash for none of the accountability.
So, again, this is all just idle speculation.. but I think that Prodos underestimated how slowly the corporate wheels turn when they drew up the game plan to present to FOX. The owners of Warzone are – IIRC - small fish by comparison and were able to offer relatively fast turnaround times on approval. I think Prodos have signed a contract that leaves them with almost all of the liability, and it was signed on the basis of generating X amount of revenue for FOX by a certain date. Now they are stuck in a position where they might not be able to meet that commitment to FOX – both because of problems they created for themselves, and because of these delays introduced by FOX – and as the backers lose their patience with Prodos, FOX finds themselves with more and more reasons to walk away from the project even though they may be responsible for the delays. Then Prodos break the unwritten (or if the FOX lawyers were on the ball – written) rule that you don’t do anything that portrays your leash holder in a negative light - even if it’s true – and I think you end up in this kind of Kobayashi Maru situation.
@Siygess - I think I agree with everything you've written there.
Alex C wrote: Part of me wonders if Fox just found out that Prodos got the funds via KS and is now in "wtfbbq #shutitdown" mode...
If we assume the whole request a licence thing was made by Prodos before the KS startedm it seems unlikely that Fox granted a licence without an understanding of how Prodos planned to undertake the project.
looks like Fox are taking control the update needs their prior approval (that or it's a way to spin it out for another week - next Fridays update - Fox need more time to review another week guys honestly!)
Prodos Games Ltd says:
Hi guys,
We are sorry that we have been unable to deliver an update. We know you are waiting for one and we just wanted to make sure you know that it is coming.
At the moment, the update is with Fox and is pending approval.
We've been told by the Fox team in the UK that it is being looked at by the team in the USA and should be with us at some point next week.
We've said it before, but we want to say it again, we appreciate the patience you have had so far and unfortunately just have to ask for a week before this update will hopefully be ready.
Thanks again,
PRODOS Games LTD
My guess is there contract had a stipulation for an initial date that the product had to be released/produced and an associated payment to fox would be due or the rights revert back to fox.
Sounds like they are having to renegotiate there deal with fox for the ip with fox potentially playing hardball now they have seen the interest generated.
All of this would be pretty standard stuff in regards to ip rights. But it was also the main reason I did not back a project with such a big IP from such a small untested company.
Personally one thinks a lot of this is the usual people who want to argue and shout and spout the usual vitriol as they have no off line lives. You see it so much in the forums and while one admits to enjoying a good argument as much as the next person, their are limits.
The lack of communication one will admit has not helped, however one is more then aware of the restrictions that can come about through corporate contracts.
A lot of the delays and issues are one would bet down to FoX and how big business operate at that scale. (Not a dig) Prods are a small scale operation and so deals that come about from this are usually based around a couple of people arguing about what and why.
However FoX when they put this deal together most likely put down a team to deal with this, of IP lawyers, business managers, specialist managers, art managers, product managers, around 6-7, and then the admin staff for them. each one of these managers/directors probably makes more in a year than the project is worth. For them its about long term strategy and business.
This means that communication can take a long time to filter through the big team and each option needs to be checked and gone through via committee. That all takes time.
The problem comes from the smaller producer who operates on what they perceive is a reasonable timeline and big business timelines.
For Prodos this will be a learning experience and a big learning curve. As such deals often have big long winded contracts that states what can and cannot be discussed.
In the end it means that we all learn something, and need to just take time out and relax. The AvP universe, is big and has a lot of fans that want to keep it as x,y,z resource. That's all well and good, but if they have/had a license then they are also obligated to stick to certain conditions, all of which most likely are still in place.
What one would like to see is even if its just a friendly note to every one, Prodos is under contractual obligation as to what we can and cannot say. And also that while we would all like to see x,y,z it might not be possible due to legal obligations under the IP laws.
Lastly people this is a chance for all fans to push ideas and help develop the franchise and universe. Go nuts.
Prodos is under contractual obligation as to what we can and cannot say.
Is that a typo and you meant "they" instead of we? If not, I'm pretty sure none of the KS terms included giving Prodos power to speak for us as individual or restrict our expression of those thoughts as long as it is within the KS rules.
Prodos is under contractual obligation as to what we can and cannot say.
Is that a typo and you meant "they" instead of we? If not, I'm pretty sure none of the KS terms included giving Prodos power to speak for us as individual or restrict our expression of those thoughts as long as it is within the KS rules.
True.. and I doubt there is anything in the contract between FOX and Prodos that says FOX can only dictate terms to Prodos that are in line with KS rules because how Prodos chose to fund their game is their problem. To be fair to FOX, I would imagine that with most of their licensing deals, the licensee is only ever beholden to the licensor and they probably aren't used to their licensee 'sharing' accountability with both themselves AND a third party (us). But in a situation where Kitsune says "There is too much negativity. Police it, or we pull the plug. And stop telling people about stuff that is our fault, or we will pull the plug. Hell, we can't trust you to handle your own communication. Stop talking to these 'backers'. From now on, you will let us do it or we pull the plug" ..then I have to ask you, as a backer, what do you want more? The freedom to express your concern or the product you supported? Because what if things are so bad right now, those two things are mutually exclusive?
Siygess wrote: From now on, you will let us do it or we pull the plug" ..then I have to ask you, as a backer, what do you want more? The freedom to express your concern or the product you supported? Because what if things are so bad right now, those two things are mutually exclusive?
Honestly, if given the choice I would take my freedom to express concern, even if it meant losing money. I won't willingly support a company I don't trust or like, and anyone willing to censor my opinion and mislead me can get bent and fail for all I care. My honor and integrity are worth far, far more than my pledge is worth, and being forced to keep quiet when I see something I don't like or understand, without being able to ask what I consider reasonable questions about it, does't work for me.
Now, having said that, I MUCH rather Prodos get their crap together and deliver what I've paid for. I WANT a cool AVP board game, and the extra figures I pledged for.
CptJake wrote: I won't willingly support a company I don't trust or like, and anyone willing to censor my opinion and mislead me can get bent and fail for all I care.
Agreed.
Prodos has made my list of game companies I will no longer consider doing business with (along with GW and AGM).
The product looks amazing, as does much of the product of the others on my "naughty list" (imho), but their work ethic and business practices are terrible.
If you say so, guys. I'd have a ton of respect for a company who would take a fatal bullet for it's backers out of principal.. but no company in their right mind would actually do that.
This is just idle speculation but I just went back to some pinball forums I havent visited in a long while and there is a company making a Predator pinball machine.
Recently they have closed down most communication, havent posted pictures of work in progress and seem not to even want to say the word 'predator'.
Alot of angst from people who have preordered and much speculation of rights problems, funding problems etc
Sound familiar?
I didnt dig too deep but the similarities are interesting.
Maybe there is a new guy in control of the IP at Fox and he doesnt like how the last guy ran the place and is clamping it all down? Who knows.
It was a 'they' just a turn of phrase as a personal opinion, as the sentence should have been "Prodos is under contractual obligation as to 'what we can and cannot say'. " or rather " 'What they can and cannot say'. "
That kind of contract is a common one with a lot of big business and one would guess that the Game is also being worked as part of the canon like the Dark Horse new comic series, so it all takes time.
Though one as a backer has been somewhat worried by this bloody KS and how its handled one ill admit, initially dropped out, but bought a pledge later one. One's just hoping for the best now, before backing anything else they offer as how they finalise this one will be the telling thing.
adlard.matthew wrote: It was a 'they' just a turn of phrase as a personal opinion, as the sentence should have been "Prodos is under contractual obligation as to 'what we can and cannot say'. " or rather " 'What they can and cannot say'. "
That kind of contract is a common one with a lot of big business and one would guess that the Game is also being worked as part of the canon like the Dark Horse new comic series, so it all takes time.
Though one as a backer has been somewhat worried by this bloody KS and how its handled one ill admit, initially dropped out, but bought a pledge later one. One's just hoping for the best now, before backing anything else they offer as how they finalise this one will be the telling thing.
Yeah, his post makes no sense, is definitely one of the Prodos guys...
It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
I actually used to use this KS as the goto example of exactly how to communicate with backers regarding the progress even if there are issues... that clearly is no longer the case.
I would compare Prodos to GW, but at least GW actually gives you stuff when you pay for it.
Also, by refusing to update backers on work in progress, aren't they violating Kickstarter terms and conditions? We all know they aren't letting the KS comments page go back up because the company was getting complaints, which is why they're only using channels where they can edit people's comments, but COMPLETELY shutting down production communications?
It's like they're trying their best to make their business fail...
Nah - Mongoose are horribly behind schedule, but in the case of the Dredd KS (at least) I thin kbackers have had great value even if they were to stop delivering tomorrow
richred_uk wrote: Nah - Mongoose are horribly behind schedule, but in the case of the Dredd KS (at least) I thin kbackers have had great value even if they were to stop delivering tomorrow
I totally disagree, While Moongoose were behind schedule they kept people up to date, passing on the excuses they were getting from sculpters etc... (illness/family emergencies...) their slipping deadlines were always reviewed and explained... I don't think you can ask for more from a KS creator when things are outside their control.
In this case I think Prodos need to stop the BS and stop trying to put a positive spin on things.
Look at how GrindHouse are dealing with their Incursion supplier issues. -Panda keep giving them the brush off, so Grindhouse have informed all their backers and made clear exactly who is holding up the project. Panda now need to get things moving or people will avoid future KS projects with panda attached.
Prodos need to just say; Project delayed because x sculpts arn't finished. More Delays because clear casting materials are out of stock. External delays because fluff IP needs checked.
I would love it if they would start shipping in waves. Get all the miniatures that are ready In the post now! And once the game is printed send it with the remaining mins later.
But shipping the "ready" stuff now requires 3 things:
1. Effort on Prodos' part.
2. Prodos to give a feth about the people who gave them money.
3. The stuff to actually BE ready. This may be proven by a FB video, but I don't use FB, so I don't know if they're being truthful there or not.
Nah - Mongoose are horribly behind schedule, but in the case of the Dredd KS (at least) I thin kbackers have had great value even if they were to stop delivering tomorrow
Yeah unless like me you only ordered the ABC warriors in which case I have had didley squat in over 2 years and so far they have been mentioned once in updates with 1 half finished green shown.
Alex C wrote: But shipping the "ready" stuff now requires 3 things:
1. Effort on Prodos' part. Map!
2. Prodos to give a feth about the people who gave them money. Ship!
3. The stuff to actually BE ready. This may be proven by a FB video, but I don't use FB, so I don't know if they're being truthful there or not. Crew!
Heh, sorry, couldn't resist.
Alex C wrote: Also, by refusing to update backers on work in progress, aren't they violating Kickstarter terms and conditions?
You might be right about that. Perhaps this is just me sticking my head in the sand but I still chose to believe that Prodos have manoeuvred themselves into the unenviable position where the only way AvP will ever see the light of day is to do exactly what FOX says from this point onwards.. and FOX sure as hell won't give a feth about the Kickstarter T&Cs. So do they play along and maybe we will see some sort of product in the next few months? Or do they blurt out one final, accurate and unedited state of affairs which provokes a FOX SMASH! and all our money goes up in smoke?
Alex C wrote: It's like they're trying their best to make their business fail...
I think they are on the only path that will allow them to provide us with a product and stay alive as a company. Of course, there's no arguing that they shouldn't have gotten into that tight spot in the first place..
Alex C wrote: Serious question here: Is anyone going to buy anything else from Prodos in the future? Would anyone back any future KS they might do?
Assuming they are still around, yes. After all - FOX issues aside - it isn't as if I didn't go through this already with WZR. So if they can keep putting out Warzone minis I want then I will keep buying them but if Prodos do come out of this intact, I will be highly surprised if they do another Kickstarter project again.
Alex C wrote: Serious question here: Is anyone going to buy anything else from Prodos in the future? Would anyone back any future KS they might do?
Back any Prodos KS? No. Buy there stuff? Only if it is on the shelf at my FLGS or in stock at a reputable online store if my store can't special order it. My interest though is pretty minor though as I'm only keen on getting the fempred and predalien at this point.
richred_uk wrote: Nah - Mongoose are horribly behind schedule ... ... I think backers have had great value even if they were to stop delivering tomorrow
Yeah unless like me you only ordered the ABC warriors in which case I have had didley squat in over 2 years and so far they have been mentioned once in updates with 1 half finished green shown.
I sympathise with you, I had a long wait for the Dark judges. However I feel the need to call BS, there has been a bit more than just a half finished green... have you been reading the updates?
Spoiler:
Also...
Mongoose Judge Dredd KSFAQ wrote:▻ How long will I have to wait for my items after the Kickstarter ends? For items that already exist (such as most of the force box sets, Judge Dredd, Brit-Cit Judges, etc) we are already manufacturing to cover pledges. These we will dispatch as quickly as possible after the Kickstarter ends - while we do not know how many pledges there will be at the end of the Kickstarter, we will be working to get these items out to everyone within two weeks of the Kickstarter ending.
Other items are currently being designedor are in the queue to be designed; manufacturing naturally follows this, so there will be a time lag. For some items, like the Lawmaster and Manta Prowl Tank, we are already prepping manufacture, and so they should follow quickly.Others will take a little longer - however, if you have pledged for some items that are already being manufactured and others that need to go through the design process, we will not hold your miniatures up until everything is finish. We will send items out as they are ready, so you will not have to wait long to start seeing some Judge Dredd goodness!
In short waiting sucks but it's what we signed up for when we select choices not yet produced, like dark judges or ABC warriors... Mongoose stated that choices not yet designed would take a place in the que for design production. 2 years + 113 updates later that's still happening.
In contrast Prodos told us this game would be with us already... Now we have half answers and a removed KS page...
Alex C wrote: Serious question here: Is anyone going to buy anything else from Prodos in the future? Would anyone back any future KS they might do?
via crowdfunding, not a prayer, but almost certainly yes if I can stand in a store or at a show and hand over my cold hard cash while clutching the spoils in my grubby mitt. Unless this mess falls through of course, in which case they'll never see another penny no matter what they produce.
Does anyone else get the impression that Fox has pretty much axed the project, but then gave Prodos the OK to ship out rewards to backers when they realized that stiffing the backers would create some serious negative publicity? I doubt there will ever be a retail release for this game or any Prodos AVP products. Once the KS stuff ships, I bet we never hear about Aliens or Predators from Prodos again.
Alex C wrote: Serious question here: Is anyone going to buy anything else from Prodos in the future? Would anyone back any future KS they might do?
via crowdfunding, not a prayer, but almost certainly yes if I can stand in a store or at a show and hand over my cold hard cash while clutching the spoils in my grubby mitt. Unless this mess falls through of course, in which case they'll never see another penny no matter what they produce.
Sadly, this.
I'd love to have the fortitude to say screw them, their dishonesty has cost them any future cash, but currently I like their sculpting more than I have distaste for their corporate behaviour. There's only one industry company that I will walk away from when they have stuff I want rather than give them my cash, and that's a retailer rather than a manufacturer.
But give them a loan to develop a product with? That ship has well and truly sailed - they could have a 28mm Star Wars Licence and I'd be waiting for retail.
I'd be surprised if we hear from Prodos again once this debacle is over. They've done a superb job of fething up their company by trying to play with the big boys when they're clearly not capable of doing so. Reputation is everything in business and they've done a grand job of shredding theirs.
CptJake wrote: So, the over/under on pre-Christmas delivery date?
all bets are off. The haven't got a chance. Last post dates for the USA and Western Europe are less than a week away, and even last reasonably priced post for the UK is not far behind that. That assumes they are shipping from the UK not Poland, which will likely be worse. They have to give us a week's notice of closing the PM. Even if they got everything agreed, manufactured, shipped to their warehouse and packaged, they couldn't ship it out to us in time now.
If we see anything before the back end of Q1 2015 I'd be surprised.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Does anyone else get the impression that Fox has pretty much axed the project, but then gave Prodos the OK to ship out rewards to backers when they realized that stiffing the backers would create some serious negative publicity? I doubt there will ever be a retail release for this game or any Prodos AVP products. Once the KS stuff ships, I bet we never hear about Aliens or Predators from Prodos again.
If they survive.
That's an interesting jump to conclusions.
I think it's more likely that Fox doesn't want what could be perceived to be half-finished pictures of WIP miniatures, blurry shots of incomplete boards with unpainted miniatures etc. (as it perceives them to be harmful to the franchise*) and instead want finished studio goods and releases. At least that is how I have read this letter, again the true meaning hidden behind half-truths.
You could be right of course though, time will tell!
*Presumably damage to the franchise wasn't a consideration for either of the AvP movies.
SeanDrake wrote: All of this would be pretty standard stuff in regards to ip rights. But it was also the main reason I did not back a project with such a big IP from such a small untested company.
Same ditto. When I read that each (?) model had to be approved by Fox, I chose not to fund the project. IIRC, The models from the Robotech RPG had to undergo approval as well, delaying the project and (?) creating more pieces to assemble than the detail justified.
One rule of thumb when backing projects is that you have to evaluate each potential party in the KS, anything from the license holder, to a third-party manufacturer, to any additional investors in the project. Too frequently, trying to find this information is difficult -- especially when the creator doesn't tell you what other parties are involved in project. Usually, if i see a license involved, I won't back the project.
EDIT: I should mention that, when you work with another party, DON'T say anything negative about them. Or, rather, Prodos blaming Fox risks, in the long run, making their relationship worse (like their relationship looks to be now) which is obviously not good for the project. It's an easy way out to say the manufacturer, a partner, or a contractor is at fault, but YOU made the choice to work with them, so you're still ultimately responsible. I find it kind of strange that, at least in the US, we think if we put the blame on one person or company and "fix" them (eg. remove them from the project), everything else will suddenly get better. I think this is a result of the focus on the individual in US society. Is this also true in other countries?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Does anyone else get the impression that Fox has pretty much axed the project, but then gave Prodos the OK to ship out rewards to backers when they realized that stiffing the backers would create some serious negative publicity? I doubt there will ever be a retail release for this game or any Prodos AVP products. Once the KS stuff ships, I bet we never hear about Aliens or Predators from Prodos again.
If they survive.
That's an interesting jump to conclusions.
I think it's more likely that Fox doesn't want what could be perceived to be half-finished pictures of WIP miniatures, blurry shots of incomplete boards with unpainted miniatures etc. (as it perceives them to be harmful to the franchise*) and instead want finished studio goods and releases. At least that is how I have read this letter, again the true meaning hidden behind half-truths.
You could be right of course though, time will tell!
*Presumably damage to the franchise wasn't a consideration for either of the AvP movies.
First of all, it was a jump to impressions. I have not concluded anything, but am concerned about many things.
Second, this seems a lot more serious and pervasive than the loss of WIP display rights. Sure, that could be the big problem Fox has with the project, but I tend to think "development hell" or "canceled!" when I think of how movie studios operate with projects like this.
It is more than the tiles and Fox. The rules still needed proofreading when they sent out the PDF. The Young Bloods were not cast-able as sculpted. The clear resin issue wasn't Fox's fault either.
CptJake wrote: It is more than the tiles and Fox. The rules still needed proofreading when they sent out the PDF. The Young Bloods were not cast-able as sculpted. The clear resin issue wasn't Fox's fault either.
The young blood and clear resin issues should have been overcome what with Jarek insisting that the only things they are waiting on now is printed materials. He's also saying they will still ship in 2 waves - box sets first and then add-ons, but if the models exist, there's surely no good reason why they couldn't ship the other way round and we'd all have a bunch of cool models.
This leads me to believe that the young bloods and clears (and 3d terrain) are not ready, which means he'd being less than truthful, which means I have no reason to believe anything else he says. A kickstarter creator/backer relationship is all about trust, and Prodos have breached that trust with months of miss-information and I suspect, in the case of the IP dispute, smoke and mirrors.
I suspect whatever the real issue between Fox and Prodos is at this point prevents Prodos from shipping out anything.
Another exacerbating (or an alternative) factor could be cash flow. Shipping out all the existing figures takes money.
Or it could be something completely different. We don't know and likely never will.
I suspect whatever comms between Prodos and Fox which are ongoing, or any ongoing approvals, will slow down/pause over the holiday period and hopefully renew with a quickness after the new year begins.
Well while this has been going on, I've been exchanging emails with Kickstarter to see what I could find out.
I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.
My email to them ...
Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.
Dear Sir/Madam,
In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...
"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?
Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."
please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.
Yours faithfully,
xxxxxx
and this time I have a response .....
Hi xxxxxx,
Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.
We hope this helps.
Regards,
Kickstarter Copyright
Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.
That's much to big an assumption to make, I think it's much more probable that there were certain elements of the game or miniatures that Fox haven't agreed with.
Pacific wrote: That's much to big an assumption to make, I think it's much more probable that there were certain elements of the game or miniatures that Fox haven't agreed with.
I agree - it's likely that they did have permission but for some reason that permission has been withrawn - hopefully temporarily pending renegotiation or something.
well not being in the KS i'm not sure of all of what was involved, it could be a minor issue like maybe a certain item is not permitted, but something tells me that isn't it, since if it was the offending item would have been removed, but the fact the whole thing was removed says that something big occurred and things are not looking good, but then again I could be wrong.
yeah - if you start with the assumption that Prodos and Fox already had a working agreement, and then consider that there was something relatively minor that Fox didn't like - a model, a bit of concept art, whatever, then why would they not have discussed that and moved forward rather than launching an IP dispute? That seems rather unnecessarily combative, if indeed the two companies were talking.
Glad people are talking here about it. Not impressed with recent developments. I can deal with the delays but have similar conserns to others here. I tend to lerk on here and comment on KS but now that method of coms is gone.
I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.
My email to them ...
Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.
Dear Sir/Madam,
In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...
"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?
Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."
please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.
Yours faithfully,
xxxxxx
and this time I have a response .....
Hi xxxxxx,
Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.
We hope this helps.
Regards,
Kickstarter Copyright
Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.
The telling bit was from what was said in the interview, it sounds like Fox wasn't happy about KS backers seeing anything until the whole package was ready for consumers. So basically Fox entered with a closed policy and no show and Prodos the open show it all. You really cannot make this stuff up, but it does kind of explain the Copyright issue as Fox must be 'Personal opinion' considering the showing of designs as a (c) violation due to them both being their intellectual property and not approved so made a complaint.
If this is the case shows how little Fox understood the whole process. Still at least have seen some images of boxed stuff so hoping for best.....
The telling bit was from what was said in the interview, it sounds like Fox wasn't happy about KS backers seeing anything until the whole package was ready for consumers. So basically Fox entered with a closed policy and no show and Prodos the open show it all. You really cannot make this stuff up, but it does kind of explain the Copyright issue as Fox must be 'Personal opinion' considering the showing of designs as a (c) violation due to them both being their intellectual property and not approved so made a complaint.
If this is the case shows how little Fox understood the whole process. Still at least have seen some images of boxed stuff so hoping for best.....
It really beggars belief that Fox entered into a licencing agreement with Prodos without investigating how kickstarter works first. I'd have expected their legal eagles to be all over that like a bad rash.
If the contract laid out what was and was not permissible to show, Prodos may have been able to realize perhaps KS was not an appropriate funding vehicle. Fox understanding KS probably would have had a major affect on the the wording of what ever agreement was signed. If Fox typically prohibits showing WIP product, they probably include words to prohibit that.
If the contract/license agreement did not specify any of that, shame on both parties for not getting/giving clarification when issues arose.
Of course, without having access to the documents, who knows for sure?
The telling bit was from what was said in the interview, it sounds like Fox wasn't happy about KS backers seeing anything until the whole package was ready for consumers. So basically Fox entered with a closed policy and no show and Prodos the open show it all. You really cannot make this stuff up, but it does kind of explain the Copyright issue as Fox must be 'Personal opinion' considering the showing of designs as a (c) violation due to them both being their intellectual property and not approved so made a complaint.
If this is the case shows how little Fox understood the whole process. Still at least have seen some images of boxed stuff so hoping for best.....
It really beggars belief that Fox entered into a licencing agreement with Prodos without investigating how kickstarter works first. I'd have expected their legal eagles to be all over that like a bad rash.
While they absolutely should have been, I can certainly see a scenario in my head where - to FOX - Kickstarter is simply the funding source that Prodos are using. You know, that funny pre-order system the kids keep talking about. The idea that Prodos would have any obligation to the people who 'pre-order' the game probably never entered their minds.. or if it did, they simply assumed that if there were conflicting expectations, Prodos would always pick FOX over us.
I mean.. I remember the heady days of working for a small company. A trade show down the road? Lets pack up some things and go! The reporting chain between us and the execs was like.. 3 people. Now after two acquisitions, I have to submit a request to blow my nose at least six weeks in advance because that request has to pass through the hands of a dozen people, none of whom can say 'yes', but all of whom can play it safe and say 'no'.. and it when it does reach somebody empowered to approve the request, that person is so far up the food chain that he has no idea what a nose is or why it would need to be blown.
There's a reason that so many big companies have been trying to embrace "Agile" in the last few years - they recognise the benefits of being small like Prodos.. but so few corporations are willing to fully surrender the power of decision making and empower their lower level employees. So to some exec at FOX, every time Prodos attend a convention and show off / give away some AvP minis, that don't see that as the kind of marketing that a small company needs to do.. it's just disobedience.
If the contract laid out what was and was not permissible to show, Prodos may have been able to realize perhaps KS was not an appropriate funding vehicle. Fox understanding KS probably would have had a major affect on the the wording of what ever agreement was signed. If Fox typically prohibits showing WIP product, they probably include words to prohibit that.
If the contract/license agreement did not specify any of that, shame on both parties for not getting/giving clarification when issues arose.
Of course, without having access to the documents, who knows for sure?
If the contract laid out what was and was not permissible to show, Prodos may have been able to realize perhaps KS was not an appropriate funding vehicle. Fox understanding KS probably would have had a major affect on the the wording of what ever agreement was signed. If Fox typically prohibits showing WIP product, they probably include words to prohibit that.
If the contract/license agreement did not specify any of that, shame on both parties for not getting/giving clarification when issues arose.
Of course, without having access to the documents, who knows for sure?
True, sadly true, but it does seem to show in that direction.
Rather suspect that Fox 'Personal speculation, before tin foil hat wearers start :p' took to this as they would any other toy producers with finished models in a nice shiny pack like the action figures and this is a whole new concept. In fact cannot think of any other KS Fox backed/team project, so this could all be new to Fox.
Speculation one knows but Fox being as they are they set up a team who just saw this as a toy manufacturer licence deal, and suddenly found them selves with an unknown entity and basically spat dummy out of pram. Pity as they could have pushed this one really big with Fox coming off really well, with lines like Terminator, planet of apes, X-men, wargames. etc.
Alex C wrote: Serious question here: Is anyone going to buy anything else from Prodos in the future? Would anyone back any future KS they might do?
No.
This KS actually has the honour of being the only KS where I actually cancelled my pledge (as opposed to dropped down to $1). I'm glad I dropped out, and I won't back anything from Prodos again (along with Panda, Wargames Factory and a few others).
Regardless of the reasons behind the scenes, if the KS email posted above if true, Prodos flat out lied about the "accidental" KS page shutdown. That is inexcusable.
warboss wrote: Regardless of the reasons behind the scenes, if the KS email posted above if true, Prodos flat out lied about the "accidental" KS page shutdown. That is inexcusable.
Lying is about the only thing Prodos has a knack for.
You guys think if we wrote FOX legal about whats going on they might provide us with some clue as to whats up and how much money we're being screwed out of? lol
chaos0xomega wrote: You guys think if we wrote FOX legal about whats going on they might provide us with some clue as to whats up and how much money we're being screwed out of? lol
Doubt you will get any response since if the deal is under dispute the will give their patented "No Comment" response.
chaos0xomega wrote: You guys think if we wrote FOX legal about whats going on they might provide us with some clue as to whats up and how much money we're being screwed out of? lol
I'm way ahead of you. They've ignored my emails so far (as I'd expect).
CptJake wrote: I suspect whatever the real issue between Fox and Prodos is at this point prevents Prodos from shipping out anything.
I did not back this, but I was hoping to see this product hit retail, and YIKES!
Fox basically has Prodos over a barrel here. Prodos completed manufacturing and production, so they have basically NO money - it's all spent except for whatever Prodos budgeted for freight, shipping and handling. Plus, the DCMA takedown pretty much kills Prodos ability to communicate and get help. Thing is, without communications, it's not possible to know what the issue is. And as this is probably all legal communications, there probably isn't much of anything that Prodos could share, even if they wanted to. And I'm sure there's a legal injunction with huge fines if Prodos ships infringing product.
But this is how the big boys play, they play for blood, and they hit when it hurts. Expect to see GW and/or Hasbro pull the same if/when the not-Heroquest is ready to ship.
What I don't get is how Prodos could have gotten this far along without a clear legal framework from Fox. That's insane.
Prodos has not really completed manufacturing and production. Rule book, tiles, game box, packaging for the other stuff, clear resin figures, Young Bloods... Lots of things not yet done if we are to believe Prodos (and frankly, them saying they are not done with something is about all I believe from them.) I suspect cards and any other printed material aside from the rule book and tiles are not done yet. They may have caught up on the clear resin and Young Bloods, but I wouldn't bet on it, especially if the resculpting of the Young Bloods required another run through the approval process.
I would agree they are probably out of money. When they opened up 'pre-orders' for pledges to include KS exclusives on their webstore they pretty much gave that secret away. The indicated they needed to print 5K copies of the game and had hoped to pre-sell that amount to cover their costs.
What I don't get is how Prodos could have gotten this far along without a clear legal framework from Fox. That's insane.
I suspect they did have, but they have breached it in some way. It's not good for a business relationship when you blame your bigger partner for problems, as Prodos has done continuously over delays allegedly being down to Fox's slow approval process. Even if true (and it probably is) one does not drag the governing company's name through the mud and not expect any consequences.
What I don't get is how Prodos could have gotten this far along without a clear legal framework from Fox. That's insane.
I suspect they did have, but they have breached it in some way. It's not good for a business relationship when you blame your bigger partner for problems, as Prodos has done continuously over delays allegedly being down to Fox's slow approval process. Even if true (and it probably is) one does not drag the governing company's name through the mud and not expect any consequences.
I would have to disagree there, evidently you have not watched Family guy which drags Fox thru the mud every chance they get, them and the Simpsons, but on the other hand they are money making machines.
I suspect that dates might be relevant in all this:
AvP KS funds 28/11/13 (sorry to people who use dates the wrong way around)
AvP page pulled 25/11/14
Now (and this is only a speculation) that's roughly a year between the 2.
I already suspect (and might have had supporting evidence from the KS pages, but that's now gone) that the reason that Prodos are trying to sell 5k copies of the KS edition of the game before going to hard plastic is that there's a minimum licence fee payable per 'edition'.
It would be reasonable for the licence to require an annual minimum payment. With Prodos having been unable to release the product to retail, I'd believe that they've been unable to meet a payment against the licence.
If that failure invalidated the licence, then there would be a legitimate IP issue for Fox to complain to KS about.
This could all be complete nonsense, I *really* hope it is. I really want to see this game, these models. But I now have very limited faith in the company's ability to deliver.
I do think the size of the project was a big issue for Prodos and Fox. I think Fox did expect a typical toy type license return (probably thinking 10s to 100s of thousands of units sold) and Prodos saw games like Zombicide bring in 7 figures and thought this would make them Big Time.
But then reality kicked in. The KS brought in less than half a million, which sounds like a lot, but it was not enough to cover Prodos cranking out even an initial 5k copies of the base game, let alone tool up a multi-thousand unit retail production run they would need to profit off the license. And to Fox, with a multi-billion revenue each year, they realized it is VERY small potatoes from their perspective. So Prodos overextends, and Fox sees their licensee talking smack about them and perhaps breaking contractual agreements and realizes 'This just isn't worth it'.
if that were true, and if we assume Prodos has spent the majority of their cash on development and manufacture, then they might already be in a downward financial spiral from which their only escape might be the launch of a product they can't release because they haven't finished it. They'd be essentially bankrupt.
But then reality kicked in. The KS brought in less than half a million, which sounds like a lot, but it was not enough to cover Prodos cranking out even an initial 5k copies of the base game, let alone tool up a multi-thousand unit retail production run they would need to profit off the license. And to Fox, with a multi-billion revenue each year, they realized it is VERY small potatoes from their perspective. So Prodos overextends, and Fox sees their licensee talking smack about them and perhaps breaking contractual agreements and realizes 'This just isn't worth it'.
Thought something similar earlier on, but after seeing that Dark Horse has also got comic rights again, thought again, as they will also not make that cash (relatively) but does draw in a nice revenue, but who knows.
Anyone heard from Fox as to whether they are allowing this game to be sold at all, if Prodos are still going ahead.
Hope they are as can see this doing well in stores, as it would be a popular seller. And could also do well in regular retail shops,
there may be a possibility that Prodos had a trial 1 year contract with Fox for the rights to make a miniature game, and with the game not coming out after a year Fox pulled the contract and Prodos has to try to renegotiate the deal and contract.
It would be so, so cruel if were going to come this close to getting our mitts on these minis, and for them not to arrive.
Although I still don't think that is likely to happen - at the very least I'm sure the KS will be sent out to backers, although it would be nice if it went on general release also. They are some cracking minis, and I'm sure with the franchise it would sell well (if it were given the chance to go on sale)
I submitted a rather long winded ticket to KS about the whole thing, just about what may actually be going on, what Prodos is telling us and what we are seeing online don't add up necessarily. I also commented that many are getting worried that no models will appear or that any refunds will be possible and many feel that we are not being given any information which is making the situation worse.
I will see if they can offer any advice, but I don't like how we now have to go begging to Prodos Direct for information or a refund request, which they will probably ignore.
I realise this may all be hand wringing, but at this point id rather have my £155 back, and if folk do get miniatures later and I don't, I wont be that bothered.
biggusdoggus wrote: Well while this has been going on, I've been exchanging emails with Kickstarter to see what I could find out.
I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.
My email to them ...
Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.
Dear Sir/Madam,
In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...
"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?
Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."
please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.
Yours faithfully,
xxxxxx
and this time I have a response .....
Hi xxxxxx,
Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.
We hope this helps.
Regards,
Kickstarter Copyright
Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.
I wont comment his as it was me (Prodos) taking the page down :
OFFICIAL, APPROVED BY FOX, UPDATE:
UPDATE, 08/12/2014:
Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"
I wont comment his as it was me (Prodos) taking the page down :
OFFICIAL, APPROVED BY FOX, UPDATE:
UPDATE, 08/12/2014:
Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"
Won't comment? So why post at all? Your cut and paste of something which the reply from KS seems to refute just seems to cement the fact that you are being less than honest with us. Heck it could be you DID take the page down, but did so because KS said "Hey, Fox says you're project is violating their IP, take down your page or we will".
Either come out and say "KS is wrong" and explain why, or wait until you can post something new that can be verified. You are not helping your case doing the 'No comment but here is our previous statement which seems to have been contradicted" thing.
I get this is probably frustrating to you and the other guys at Prodos. Making it worse for yourselves doesn't help that.
Backer #1 When this whole IP thing first blew up, I argued strongly that things didn't add up, that the disappearance of the KS page and the pictures from here within minutes of each other seemed more than just an administrative error. I was lambasted by the fan boys, told to shut up, told I was wrong numerous times, told even that I owed Prodos an apology for daring to question their version of events.
This makes it crystal clear that the kickstarter page was taken down as a result of an IP dispute lodged by 21st Century Fox, NOT as we have been told here, as a result of a clerical error by Prodos.
Jarek Ever, please explain yourself. Either you have been lying to us all along regarding how and why the KS page was taken down, or Kickstarter has made up the IP dispute and amazingly pulled Fox's name out of the hat.
Please explain what really happened, and why you chose to tell a completely different story. Feel free to apologise at this point - you owe us that much, especially since so many of us have been taking flack for questioning this for the past fortnight.
Please explain the nature of the current working relationship between Fox and Prodos.
and please explain how you propose to move forward and get this game out to both backers and the market - if indeed you are still in a position to do so.
It's time for some honesty, it's time for some humility, it's time for some answers.
Followed by lots of posts agreeing / disagreeing / hypothesising / etc...
Jarek Ever what is that ? KS Backer #1, we have been through this one several times, you have an official updates from Prodos with Fox blessing, I really got enough of this conspiracy trolling . If you strongly believe that we are bunch of lairs or thief please leave this group and don't stir like that.
Some more posts follow seemingly supporting Jarek
Jarek Ever here you are, lets See who is .
Spoiler:
KS backer #2 The question does remain unanswered. Is the posted email correct? Did Fox lodge an IP dispute? The answer can only be yes or no. The question isn't have Prodos been lying all along, but rather did they not tell us everything as it should be when the KS went down.
Jarek Ever No, after the page went down we have a discussion with Fox that it will be better that way. there is no IP discussion at all, never was.
More posts follow...
Jarek Ever I started this before IF Fox would would want to pull the plug on this one, we would not have this page nor AvP on our we would not be able to mention it on our Prodos official website or AvP Forum their army would close us down overnight , simply, and they would do it long time ago, even before we ran the KS, the rules/or understanding of them has changed half way through, thus we are where we are but there is no IP dispute! never was!
More posts follow from unhappy and happy backers...
Note: I haven't edited the posts above, except for the expletives... I think Jarek is too personally attached to this project and is unable to communicate in a 'professional' manner at present... Not sure he's helping matters really for Prodos... Having said that, his passion is clearly evident and hopefully that is a good sign for the game and future of the AvP miniatures range? We backers can but hope at this stage...
biggusdoggus wrote: Well while this has been going on, I've been exchanging emails with Kickstarter to see what I could find out.
I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.
My email to them ...
Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.
Dear Sir/Madam,
In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...
"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?
Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."
please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.
Yours faithfully,
xxxxxx
and this time I have a response .....
Hi xxxxxx,
Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.
We hope this helps.
Regards,
Kickstarter Copyright
Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.
I wont comment his as it was me (Prodos) taking the page down :
OFFICIAL, APPROVED BY FOX, UPDATE:
UPDATE, 08/12/2014:
Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"
TBF here, reading between the lines of the "Official, Approved by FOX update" bit, that Fox has basically brought the hammer down and laif out their stall on how this project will continue from this point till release.
Which I can understand, its a bit rubbish, and makes it all feel a bit soulless and has resulted in a lot of worry and anger, however I don't feel that the game is dead.
Though a faster update basically saying, don't panic, game is fine, internal politics etc would have gone a long way.
Anyway, I feel easter may be realistic, and if Prodos and Fox can just settle a little bit, sure it will be fine.
Just shows you though, no news is never good news online!
Fox approving that update has no bearing on the whether or not Fox initiated an IP dispute. The update is something I would expect Fox to approve if there was an IP dispute (though there are other reasons they would approve it). From a Fox perspective, having the page shut down gives the legal team time to resolve the dispute. The update as worded would hopefully calm the backers as the resolution process moves forward.
Yep, that is all conjecture/speculation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would love to see what was under the red in that exchange.
Yeah, ork head swear censor gifs showing up all over that! I realise they must be under stress and busy and having these kind of e-mails aren't helpful but that's no excuse to be unprofessional.
Alex C wrote: Jarek has never been able to communicate in a professional manner, least of all to those expressing valid concerns.
Well, I sent several mails to the KS support and at some point you just have to "a cannon ball shot" as the polite and professional does not work with them at all.
I think, the question is more about my patience than my ability to communicate in a professional manner, out of 10 "polite" email to the KS I got 0 replays, however the last one with word "solicitor" in the content, they have came back to me in 5 minutes... conclusions?
In the other hand ,we, a a company, should stay only with the Official communication and I won't make any more comments, even the personal one as I am passion about this cannon so strongly, on the FB as it seems that I am a bad man now, l am lier, thief and a guy with bad manners
Anyway, as per my comments above, copied from the FB, please see the official Prodos' statement regarding this project.
As a Conclusion :
1. There is no IP dispute and never was.
2. The project is almost approved and it will be shipped soon.
3. The page was taken down on our request, as previously started, we will work to bring it back once the product is ready to go.
Thanks.
Please follow the official Prodos updates for more information via: KS message, newsletters and on our AvP The Hunt Begins Facebook page.
KS Backer #3
So, wheres the apology then KS Backer #1?
KS Backer #1
no apology necessary. I have spoken to Jarek privately and he has all the evidence needed to confirm the authenticity of the email. He disputes Kickstarter's version of events, but the email itself is authentic.
Hell - he's even posted evidence here - that mostly red attachment above contains a conversation between him and KS in which he's quoted a slightly differently worded version of the email I showed - I'm not the only one who has had such conversations with KS.
KS Backer #3
That doesnt look like an apology to me, where is it?
Mark Rapson
KS Backer #1. It is clear to me that the status quo of the email in question has been defined. KS have posted it and Jarek is disputing/querying with them using a Copy paste function from what you have shared. Enough said. You will, alongside everyone else get an update when one is ready. Lets leave this discussion to then.
Mark Rapson
All further comments on this post will be deleted. case closed.
It's strangely fun sitting back with the popcorn to watch these 'conversations' on Facebook...
Warzone Resurrection wrote: out of 10 "polite" email to the KS I got 0 replays, however the last one with word "solicitor" in the content, they have came back to me in 5 minutes... conclusions?
Maybe I should try the same with your company then, seeing as I've sent multiple emails to various customer service people, none of which have bothered to reply.
Not that KS isn't lying/misrepresenting the situation, but the next time I catch KS lying or misrepresenting something will be the first time I do so.
Out of KS, Fox and Prodos, who has the least to gain from misrepresenting the situation or at least presenting it in as positive a light as possible? An alternate way of looking at it is which has the most to lose if the story reads a certain way?
Perhaps KS admitting they allowed a project creator to just turn off their project by accident and then decide to leave it off just because, would be detrimental to KS so they make up the IP issue. Of course one would then wonder why they allowed that to happen at all. They had already been paid, they would have lost nothing by bringing the page back...
CptJake wrote: Not that KS isn't lying/misrepresenting the situation, but the next time I catch KS lying or misrepresenting something will be the first time I do so.
Out of KS, Fox and Prodos, who has the least to gain from misrepresenting the situation or at least presenting it in as positive a light as possible? An alternate way of looking at it is which has the most to lose if the story reads a certain way?
Perhaps KS admitting they allowed a project creator to just turn off their project by accident and then decide to leave it off just because, would be detrimental to KS so they make up the IP issue. Of course one would then wonder why they allowed that to happen at all. They had already been paid, they would have lost nothing by bringing the page back...
Did KS also almost simultaneously close down the Prodos' other completely different avenues of discussion like on the Facebook page and forums as reported earlier in this thread?
CptJake wrote: Perhaps KS admitting they allowed a project creator to just turn off their project by accident and then decide to leave it off just because, would be detrimental to KS so they make up the IP issue.
it would be very silly of them to name 21st Century Fox as being the 3rd party though if no such IP dispute claim has been made. Given the damage such a statement might cause to Prodos (and Fox), That way lies a certain law suit for libel.
Oh and purely for clarity, since it may not be clear to all, Backer #1 as listed in Ruglud's posts, is in fact me.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: out of 10 "polite" email to the KS I got 0 replays, however the last one with word "solicitor" in the content, they have came back to me in 5 minutes... conclusions?
Maybe I should try the same with your company then, seeing as I've sent multiple emails to various customer service people, none of which have bothered to reply.
Prodos got back to me with an answer about 10 minutes after posting this, so thank you Jarek
No refunds being given, which is fair enough, I just wanted an answer.
Now, let's hope fulfillment is as close as they say.
Alex C wrote: No refunds being given, which is fair enough,
How is "no refunds" to be considered "fair" in any way?
There is no evidence that Prodos is planning to fulfill their obligations, no schedule or plan in place to do so, and no explanation as to why things are like this.
Until Prodos can clearly state what's going on and give some kind of definite schedule, they owes any backer a 100% refund, no questions asked.
That's basic contract law, and I'm pretty sure they don't want a series of minor legal entanglements across the world on top of whatever might be happening with Fox.
Alex C wrote: No refunds being given, which is fair enough,
How is "no refunds" to be considered "fair" in any way?
I guess I should have specified I was referring to my situation only.
I was a late backer and my payment date is outside of the Paypal refund period. I'm not covered by Kickstarter ToS. I haven't got my order yet either though, so I paid for a pledge without getting anything in return yet, which leaves me not really sure where I stand from a legal perspective.
@Alex - You still paid money to Prodos against a promise to deliver a something specific.
If Prodos has
a) no stated plan to deliver,
b) a plan to deliver something different,
c) a plan to deliver other than what they offered at the time you paid,
... then you are entitled to your money back.
Alex, you are in a better position than KS backers, and here is why:
KS Backers, if everything does go tango uniform, are supposed to be refunded, BUT Prodos will easily be able to show they spend the money from KS in a good effort attempt to complete the project, and will therefore be able to avoid the obligation to refund.
You, and others who bought via the web store did not 'pledge', you very clearly did pre-order merchandise. If they do not deliver you have a much better chance at legal recourse than us KS backers as a result.
CptJake wrote: Alex, you are in a better position than KS backers, and here is why:
KS Backers, if everything does go tango uniform, are supposed to be refunded, BUT Prodos will easily be able to show they spend the money from KS in a good effort attempt to complete the project, and will therefore be able to avoid the obligation to refund.
You, and others who bought via the web store did not 'pledge', you very clearly did pre-order merchandise. If they do not deliver you have a much better chance at legal recourse than us KS backers as a result.
But what is the date for "failed delivery"?
May 2014?
"Before Christmas"?
Prodos could just keep stringing the delivery date out, so what then? I could pursue the refund further, but as long as they keep saying "soon" can I really do anything?
While this is small comfort to most of you guys, I really do believe that we will get most, if not all of our pledges as long as FOX don't bring down the axe.
gak has happened, and will no doubt continue to happen even if the approvals come through. But from my experience in dealing with Prodos during the delivery phase of WZR, I never once got the feeling they were channeling Tony whats his face from Defiance Games. Both WZR and AvP need time to 'bed in' before they make any money for Prodos so they sure as heck aren't set to take the money and run because there isn't any. There's just a bunch of molds and 80% (heh) of a project's inventory sitting around that they can't sell.
So.. the way the project has been managed, sure. The communication issues and the secrecy around this IP thing? I get that. But if there is some way to deliver on this project, I'm confident that they will. That's not something we have to worry about, I think.
As for the durability of the models, there were definitely some issues with WZR but I think that's down to the early model design with components that were too thin.. because the material is durable like restic, but holds detail like your more conventional resin. I've dropped more than a few Undead Legionnaires on concrete and unlike other, more expensive resin models which have cracked or shattered, these guys just bounce.
I don't believe Prodos went into this with the intent to steal or commit fraud. I do think they bit off more than they could chew and were not as successful with the KS as they needed to be to fully capitalize the effort. (Setting artificially low goals can have consequences, surprise!) I do believe they have intentionally mislead more than once in an effort to gain time and deflect criticism, and I HATE being lied to or mislead. To me that is like showing a red flag to a bull, it will get my attention and not in a good way.
I do think they want to deliver. I question their ability to do so with the issues they are facing. I hope they do deliver what I have paid for, and I hope the quality is what they claimed it would be. I am not too worried about sculpt quality, I am worried about quality of the board game (which I understand some folks do not give a crap about, but I do).
I also question their ability to move forward as a company. Lack of integrity and throwing tantrums are not parts of any successful business plan I know of. They do not impress me right now, and I honestly don't see them turning that around, even if they do deliver what they promised. I'm sure others will see the New Shiny when Prodos begins another project and will be all over it. I won't be.
CptJake wrote: I do think they bit off more than they could chew and were not as successful with the KS as they needed to be to fully capitalize the effort.
I think Prodos made two major mistakes with this kickstarter that ultimately cost them a lot of cash.
#1 Not having prior approval. Prodos should have had the contents of the box finalized, including rules and fluff ready to show. That sort of preparedness would have gone a long way with potential backers.
#2 Not understanding the mass market appeal the license could have pulled in. Prodos shot themselves in the foot by catering to hobbyists instead of casual gamers. Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I've seen a lot of posts asking why Prodos can't ship all those models they have sitting in the warehouse.
"Printed materials" is what the Prodos guys keep bringing up as a major snagging point, and it's unrealistic to expect Fox to allow models to be shipped without the correct packaging and branding - which sounds like exactly what a big chunk of printed materials would cover.
No sure how to comment this all this conspiracy theories...
I think, we have been transparent as we could, however the expectations from us, in some cases are just ridiculous. Maybe we should post a copy of the Contract or our bank account statements to prove that we have a license or money?
I backed 6 project myself on the KS, 4 of the are delayed for more than 6 moths, they are non-IP one, thus, they wont need any approval whatsoever and 1 non IP project is now almost 2 years delayed. The Delays are not something you may seen only in the Prodos alone.
It is difficult to handle huge license like AvP, but not impossible. Yes we have made mistakes, and underestimated the delivery time, and that was based on the initial approvals.
Yes, we wanted the game out by Xmas, and we could not make it as some material is still in the approval (from September).
For us its lost opportunity not to have this game by now or month ago, however, this is how it works, we have to wait. It's not our IP.
Is that so difficult to understand that every manufacturer wants his product out asap?
Also some development rules were changed during the Product Development and we have to follow. Simple.
At this stage there is nothing bad happening with the license, its handled they way it should be, in accordance with new rules, that is it.
Not sure what else you may expect from us, we can't give exact delivery time, however we have been told that it will be soon (the final approval).
The conspiracy theories are no needed, we have need as much transparent as we can, answering any question and providing as much info as we are able to.
Regarding business, well there is a lot of professional business advisers. Maybe because of that we have 3 huge licenses ... and we are not ripping of GW or other big boys.
For your information, Prodos is not only WZR or AVP. we are sculpting , designing, 3d printing, casting miniatures for the biggest companies on the market, so we have to do something right.
Anyway, as started earlier today, please follow official, approved by Fox, communication.
Have a good weekend, hopefully we will have some good, long expecting news coming to us tomorrow and we will be able to share them with you asap.
Ktulhut wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I've seen a lot of posts asking why Prodos can't ship all those models they have sitting in the warehouse.
"Printed materials" is what the Prodos guys keep bringing up as a major snagging point, and it's unrealistic to expect Fox to allow models to be shipped without the correct packaging and branding - which sounds like exactly what a big chunk of printed materials would cover.
The box for each squad contains a sort Fluff, which needs to be approved (part of the 166 pages/ 60k words doc sent for approval) , same for the back of the board game box. And the packaging is with legal line. No legal line, no product.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote: That is a lot of text to tell me absolutely nothing new.
There is no explanation why the KS has to be locked, for example.
Maybe this : Also some development rules were changed during the Product Development and we have to follow. Simple. ??? However I am assuming, for you this is not satisfactory answer, we cannot say any more than it's stated in the "approved" communication.
Visceral_Mass wrote: Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.
The project was to fund an AvP Board Game...
Yep. And right up front they mentioned the retail version would have 1-2 piece figures. With that now changed to 10-15 per Predator (assumedly less for the Aliens but probably similar for the Marines), the typical board game crowd will end up largely untapped,which is a shame.
Like street hustler wave the hand to distract from some dirty trick while refuse to answer the truth.
You see, this is why I stay away from commenting, I should just let the conspiracy theories to go on, as it does not matter what I say, you will believe that I am not telling the truth.
I said, we have been transparent as we can, we have told you that nothing bad is happening, and ask to follow the official updates. And I got answer like this.
At this stage we cannot say more about it, and more information will be revealed once we can talk about it.
Warzone, how many of those other projects you backed managed to delete their own project page then decide its in their best interests to leave it down?
Youre going to cop flak for it, suck it up. People are pissed because of decisions you made. either put the page back up or deal with the consequences in a more professional manner.
Joyboozer wrote: Warzone, how many of those other projects you backed managed to delete their own project page then decide its in their best interests to leave it down?
Youre going to cop flak for it, suck it up. People are pissed because of decisions you made. either put the page back up or deal with the consequences in a more professional manner.
Page was not deleted, but is hidden at this stage, (the only way for KS to do it is by this IP dispute information) well maybe if the other KS were on license they would also end up hiding to tidy up a bit, not sure.
As I said if some rules were changed half way through (or at the very end) we have to follow.
Is the KS page is needed for the Game to be developed? I don't think so.
For communication? sure, we can still message each other.
For fulfilling the KS, no.
So why we would need that page back if its NOW causing concerns and may cause now validation of the contract?
So why would we strongly wanted the page back at this stage? Why not wait until the product is fully developed and can be shown?
TIP : google Aliens: Colonial Marines lawsuit, maybe this will ring the bell a bit.
It is very strange how all of those other licensed KS manage to be transparent, while Prodos can't come close. Robotech, in particular, given the history of Harmony Gold legal wranglings.
So if it has no further use for you its not necessary? It didn't occur to you backers continue to use the front page and comments section long after the funding closes? People like the security having that page provides, it makes them feel more secure about handing over money with absolutely no protection.
Visceral_Mass wrote: Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.
The project was to fund an AvP Board Game...
They sure don't seem to be marketing it that way, everything I see seems to be calling it/ marketing it as a miniatures game. If it truly is a board game, it seems like they went out of their way to make it inaccessible to the average board gamer.
It is very strange how all of those other licensed KS manage to be transparent, while Prodos can't come close. Robotech, in particular, given the history of Harmony Gold legal wranglings.
We are talking here about small licenses not a huge Corporation ones, they may follow different rules, they may not have restricted contract or maybe they company did not changed the owner in the process and maybe the new owner did not put new rules in places, I really don't know.
Regardless of the licensing, I just think it's a tad disingenuous to claim that you're being "transparent" when you're deliberately concealing all of the information you've shared to date, and then follow up by refusing to elaborate on any details of where the project is, and if/when it will be delivered.
You're asking people to "Trust me", but not giving any rational basis for that trust, or showing why such trust would be well-founded.
This whole exchange makes me really glad that I never backed any of your projects.
Which is too bad, as the product looks pretty.
____
ETA - I'm out of this conversation. I wish the backers a lot of luck in getting their stuff - from the looks of things, they're going to need it.
Joyboozer wrote: So if it has no further use for you its not necessary? It didn't occur to you backers continue to use the front page and comments section long after the funding closes? People like the security having that page provides, it makes them feel more secure about handing over money with absolutely no protection.
The page does not provides any security nor the KS, to backers or project creators, have a look on the Terms and conditions of the KS.
However we have encourage backers to join our official AvP Forum (forum.prodosgames.com) and Facebook group if they want to discuss the product.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Regardless of the licensing, I just think it's a tad disingenuous to claim that you're being "transparent" when you're deliberately concealing all of the information you've shared to date, and then follow up by refusing to elaborate on any details of where the project is, and if/when it will be delivered.
You're asking people to "Trust me", but not giving any rational basis for that trust, or showing why such trust would be well-founded.
This whole exchange makes me really glad that I never backed any of your projects.
Which is too bad, as the product looks pretty.
Well if provided information + "we said what we can" is not transparent enough then there is nothing more to discuss.
We said in the official updates were "the project" is what else do we need to add?
"Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"
1. we said that the project is secured and continue its development.
2. we said that delivery date will be know once we have approved materials, which should be soon.
3. We said that we wont show any WIP materials, (here we have not given any explanation, however please add 2+2 in my above post and it should be clear to you)
What is missing to be more transparent?
You see, someone said that we are not transparent because we are not explaining all, including the size of my shoe. however I have not seen any concretes why we are not transparent.
No, that is not the case ,we are transparent as much as we can! For us we are 100% transparent, for you maybe not as we haven provided the 100% detailed reasons for our actions.
Where you stand depends on where you sit.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the product:
You will have your chance soon, once the AvP is on the shelf in your FLGS.
BTW, I am not asking to blandly trust my words, I am just asking to follow up an official updates regarding the AvP from us /Fox.
I would like to stop this "conspiracy theories" as there is no need for that.
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Joyboozer wrote: It is a perceived security. You took it away and people became insecure.
I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself
Sining wrote: I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself
Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.
However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.
In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.
However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.
I think that's really the main point.
I'm sure what a lot of (perhaps silent/lurking) posters are waiting on, and really good to hear coming from someone at Prodos.
Sining wrote: I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself
Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.
However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.
In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.
How strict are the rules you have to abide by? Can we see new painted pictures of finished miniatures and gameplay videos? I think getting as much of that out as possible at the moment would placate most backers.
Sining wrote: I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself
Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.
However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.
In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.
How strict are the rules you have to abide by? Can we see new painted pictures of finished miniatures and gameplay videos? I think getting as much of that out as possible at the moment would placate most backers.
As per official update, we have to wait until we have the product fully approved and ready to go to customers, this is the PD policy and we cannot do anything about it.
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".The product, until is ready to go, is subjects to changes. Lucky we have our models fully approved at proto stage, meaning that after the packaging approval (and Fluff) would have "product ready to go", so not far away from that.
As per official update, we have to wait until we have the product fully approved and ready to go to customers, this is the PD policy and we cannot do anything about it.
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".The product, until is ready to go, is subjects to changes. Lucky we have our models fully approved at proto stage, meaning that after the packaging approval (and Fluff) would have "product ready to go", so not far away from that.
Now *this* is exactly the sort of communication that we should have been seeing about 3 or 4 weeks ago - I follow the logic to this, and I'm quite happy to accept it. If Prodos had come out and said - "we can't show WiP any more, and as a result all those pics on the KS are breaching our agreement with Fox", then there wouldn't have been the panic that came about with the "oops we pressed the wrong button" story.
You guys sculpt gorgeous models and all the feedback I've seen say you cast them pretty well too, but your communications have been dreadful. Net result is that I've gone from considering upping my pledge via the manager to add another £30 or so, through considering trying to sell out of my pledge to now, just about staying in there to see it through. The poor communication has cost you sales and created a PR problem for you - I hope it is a learning experience for Prodos, as I want to see more lovely models coming out in future.
Sining wrote: I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself
Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.
However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.
In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.
How strict are the rules you have to abide by? Can we see new painted pictures of finished miniatures and gameplay videos? I think getting as much of that out as possible at the moment would placate most backers.
As per official update, we have to wait until we have the product fully approved and ready to go to customers, this is the PD policy and we cannot do anything about it.
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".The product, until is ready to go, is subjects to changes. Lucky we have our models fully approved at proto stage, meaning that after the packaging approval (and Fluff) would have "product ready to go", so not far away from that.
Hi Jarek,
The bit I have bolded above actually calms me down a lot (although I was pretty firmly in the "It will come when it comes" camp to some extent) As a Big aliens fan I remember with great excitement the A:CM game coming out and the infamous E3 video that basically showed an action game a lot like the engine of Alien: Isolation used. What we received was a totally different game that was simply a travesty.
I can very much appreciate FOX not wanting that gak storm again in their lives. Okay the AvP game and the community here is much smaller than the VG community, its the same principal.
I think at the end of the day you have been pretty up front with info, barring what I realise you probably cant\wont say for reasons of business and legality, I get that, and people cannot have everything they expect in life (this is especially true of online forums users (I include myself in this).
However I thinking the main sticking point was the XMAS DELIVERY WOOOOO! timeline given to backers, and that's always a bad idea because if anything goes wrong, people go from happy to bat gak crazy angry in a second, as Infinity players found with IceStorm when there was a delay because it was so massively (unexpectedly) popular.
I think if we assume the AvP game may start to be in our hands come March-June 2015 id be happy, but the sudden close down of the KS page, a long period of silence then an (oops was a mistake) followed by, "actually not a mistake but now we will keep it closed" made a lot of people go WTF! and go into super paranoid internet rumour mode. This didn't help your image.
However I have faith, i'm a bit sad I wont see game for xmas but Q1 2015 ill be happy. But a little update from FOX\Prodos just saying, happy days, and a pic of a approved new thing, will help massively I think.
Folk just got scared and paranoid and that's BAD online
Also, FOX simply don't want a repeat of that ever again. So it doesn't matter when the A:CE issue happened, it was a showing of how NOT to do WIP shots and release later.
So I think FOX maybe just had a look into the KS a bit closer the closer we are to final approvals and realised the final stuff looks diff to original WIP product and got a bit twitchy in regards to A:CE memories.
Does anyone think Prodos would be explaining any of this now if some of us had not been hammering them?
I don't.
The lesson they continue to teach us is:
"We will treat you like crap until you bring pressure on us. At that point we'll become more polite and try to actually communicate with you."
I'm not sure that is the lesson they intend to pass on, and I sure wish they would instead themselves learn the lesson "Honest and plentiful communication early is good and what our backers expect".
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".
Suddenly a grand chorus of.. "ooooohhhhh righhhhhhhhhhht" !
Prodos wrote:From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".
But your happy to send emails about pressing the wrong button, and tiding up the page??
I'm not joining other forum to talk to a fraction of the backers.
I want to talk to all of them.
I've contacted KS informing them that Prodos and Fox lied about an IP dispute to have the page removed.
I've requested it's put back so backers can talk to each other.
CptJake wrote: Does anyone think Prodos would be explaining any of this now if some of us had not been hammering them?
I don't.
The lesson they continue to teach us is:
"We will treat you like crap until you bring pressure on us. At that point we'll become more polite and try to actually communicate with you."
I'm not sure that is the lesson they intend to pass on, and I sure wish they would instead themselves learn the lesson "Honest and plentiful communication early is good and what our backers expect".
Thanks Cpt.Jakee, sorry if you think that way about us however, please consider this: get in to our boots and try to provide an "official" communication base around issue that is not not related with Prodos, that cannot be mentioned in the official communication? It's easy to criticise us and thrown accusations, however there is a lot happening behind the scenes, that for backers it's completely relevant or we simply cannot talk about it.
CptJake wrote: Does anyone think Prodos would be explaining any of this now if some of us had not been hammering them?
I don't.
The lesson they continue to teach us is:
"We will treat you like crap until you bring pressure on us. At that point we'll become more polite and try to actually communicate with you."
I'm not sure that is the lesson they intend to pass on, and I sure wish they would instead themselves learn the lesson "Honest and plentiful communication early is good and what our backers expect".
Absolutely. This for me is the fundamental issue here, and I'm not remotely convinced it's one Prodos have (or even want to) learned from.
The whole ethos of kickstarter is based on trust. We, the backers, trust Prodos, the creator, to do the right thing with our money and create their product, giving us some of that product in return. By far the most important word in that sentence was trust. Without trust, we've taken a huge blind and rather stupid gamble. Now initially that trust is built on little more than a handshake. We do have the advantage of having seen Prodos go through the kickstarter proces before - not without problems, but all in all, largely reasonably successfully, and that counts for something, but basically, early on, we're taking their word for it that things will be ok.
That trust is then built up over time as they show us more and more of the product and we get updates on progress. Those updates, those pictures of WIP designs are important - they show us that Prodos know what they are doing - that they are following the right steps towards completion - that things are happening. There's still a lot of trust involved (it could be an elaborate scam of course), but over time, those posts build confidence and therefore trust.
What (for me at least) Prodos have done by taking down the kickstarter, by removing images from facebook and the website, by doing so without warning and without proper explanation, and then by changing what little explanation we got out of them over time, is breach that trust, and without trust, we have nothing. Without trust, @WZR's posting of the "official" update is utterly meaningless. It's just words, and they are now hollow. He asks what else he can do, and therin lies a problem - there really is no way back short of successful delivery.
It's most definitely a lesson Prodos should learn for the future. Fox must have known in advance that Prodos were funding using kickstarter. Therefore Fox must have known that WIPs would be shown. They must have known this was an important part of the trust building process. If they were not aware of this, then while they are partly to blame for not investigating the process in advance, Prodos was probably equally to blame for not explaining it sufficiently. Prodos should have seeked assurances from Fox that it would be ok to show backers those images well in advance of the project starting. To not do so, to ultimately have Fox pull the plug on images they have decided they didn't really want us to see, is to breach the trust of the backers.
Question - if all this mess had happened before then end of the funding period. how many backers would have pulled out? I suspect the answer is an awful lot - probably enough to kill the project or at least make it financially crippling. They would do well to consider that and take steps to avoid such damaging actions in future.
CptJake wrote: Does anyone think Prodos would be explaining any of this now if some of us had not been hammering them?
I don't.
The lesson they continue to teach us is:
"We will treat you like crap until you bring pressure on us. At that point we'll become more polite and try to actually communicate with you."
I'm not sure that is the lesson they intend to pass on, and I sure wish they would instead themselves learn the lesson "Honest and plentiful communication early is good and what our backers expect".
Thanks Cpt.Jakee, sorry if you think that way about us however, please consider this: get in to our boots and try to provide an "official" communication base around issue that is not not related with Prodos, that cannot be mentioned in the official communication? It's easy to criticise us and thrown accusations, however there is a lot happening behind the scenes, that for backers it's completely relevant or we simply cannot talk about it.
And yet, here you are, communicating with a small handful of people instead of via the KS Update mechanism that ensures ALL backers get the word.
And again, you are only seemingly doing so because the criticism is harsh and getting louder.
See where I am going with this?
It is especially easy to criticize you when the criticisms appear valid, not addressed, and the actions leading to the criticism are repeated and develop into a pattern.
Thanks Cpt.Jakee, sorry if you think that way about us however, please consider this: get in to our boots and try to provide an "official" communication base around issue that is not not related with Prodos, that cannot be mentioned in the official communication? It's easy to criticise us and thrown accusations, however there is a lot happening behind the scenes, that for backers it's completely relevant or we simply cannot talk about it.
I'm pretty sure you meant to say irrelevant there rather than relevant - if it were relevant, then you'd want to be telling us!
and that is also part of the problem. You tell us lots has happened behind the scenes between Prodos and Fox that is irrelevant, and you couldn't be further from the truth. EVERYTHING that happens between Prodos and Fox IS relevant to us almost by definition. It is not impossible, even at this late stage, for Fox to pull the plug on the entire project because they don't like something. Therefore it is critical to us backers, that we believe the relationship and agreements between Prodos and Fox are cast-iron, that they are stable, that the two companies are working off the same page. Right now we see absolutely no evidence of that. It's clear that Fox have not allowed you to keep certain images (and possibly text) visible to backers and/or the general public - that much is blatantly obvious, but how far that extends we don't and can't know. I fully understand that you can't tell us because (I assume) you have various NDAs in place - you have a gagging order essentially, but that doesn't help our belief in the relationship - our trust (that word again) in Prodos, one little bit. Telling us that there is stuff happening in the background between the two companies that is irrelevant to us is failing to understand how important Fox is to this whole process from our point of view. It actually makes us feel more anxious about the whole process.
Automatically Appended Next Post: one last small point - don't forget that we are all backers. We didn't chuck our money at you just so that we could whine and whinge - we WANT Prodos to succeed in this every bit as much as you do. We want to trust you, we want to believe you. It's just hard to do so when trust has been so badly broken.
Thanks Cpt.Jakee, sorry if you think that way about us however, please consider this: get in to our boots and try to provide an "official" communication base around issue that is not not related with Prodos, that cannot be mentioned in the official communication? It's easy to criticise us and thrown accusations, however there is a lot happening behind the scenes, that for backers it's completely relevant or we simply cannot talk about it.
I'm pretty sure you meant to say irrelevant there rather than relevant - if it were relevant, then you'd want to be telling us!
and that is also part of the problem. You tell us lots has happened behind the scenes between Prodos and Fox that is irrelevant, and you couldn't be further from the truth. EVERYTHING that happens between Prodos and Fox IS relevant to us almost by definition. It is not impossible, even at this late stage, for Fox to pull the plug on the entire project because they don't like something. Therefore it is critical to us backers, that we believe the relationship and agreements between Prodos and Fox are cast-iron, that they are stable, that the two companies are working off the same page. Right now we see absolutely no evidence of that. It's clear that Fox have not allowed you to keep certain images (and possibly text) visible to backers and/or the general public - that much is blatantly obvious, but how far that extends we don't and can't know. I fully understand that you can't tell us because (I assume) you have various NDAs in place - you have a gagging order essentially, but that doesn't help our belief in the relationship - our trust (that word again) in Prodos, one little bit. Telling us that there is stuff happening in the background between the two companies that is irrelevant to us is failing to understand how important Fox is to this whole process from our point of view. It actually makes us feel more anxious about the whole process.
Automatically Appended Next Post: one last small point - don't forget that we are all backers. We didn't chuck our money at you just so that we could whine and whinge - we WANT Prodos to succeed in this every bit as much as you do. We want to trust you, we want to believe you. It's just hard to do so when trust has been so badly broken.
Totally agreed, this is why we have every official communication approved by the Fox, we say that all the time, just to make sure its not coming only from Prodos but from the licensor as well.
Then you simply should have stated this and left up what you've already posted instead of trying to remove it, alternating between silence and vastly different contradictory reasons ("it's an accident... it's on purpose but for different reasons... we're forced to!"), and then trying to paint the backers who just want the answers that they deserve as trolls/unreasonable/non-constructive. The fact is that you trying to get the pee out of the pool after someone took a piss and tried unsuccessfully denying that you were closing the pool and that someone pee'd in the first place. You may not be at fault for the underlying circumstances but the drama is 100% prodos' fault because of HOW you handled the situation. You didn't "accidentally" close the KS as you stated; you did it on purpose because it was the only way you could remove the information that suddenly a year later violated an agreement that NO backers ever signed. You broke that trust, not Fox. What you should have done is state what you stated last night here on a KS update and have the new rules that you are subject affect FUTURE updates. I really doubt the vast majority of the backers would have had a problem with that path.
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".
Suddenly a grand chorus of.. "ooooohhhhh righhhhhhhhhhht" !
Could someone give me a summary of that, and why it generates such an "Oh right!" moment?
warboss wrote: Then you simply should have stated this and left up what you've already posted instead of trying to remove it, alternating between silence and vastly different contradictory reasons ("it's an accident... it's on purpose but for different reasons... we're forced to!"), and then trying to paint the backers who just want the answers that they deserve as trolls/unreasonable/non-constructive. The fact is that you trying to get the pee out of the pool after someone took a piss and tried unsuccessfully denying that you were closing the pool and that someone pee'd in the first place. You may not be at fault for the underlying circumstances but the drama is 100% prodos' fault because of HOW you handled the situation. You didn't "accidentally" close the KS as you stated; you did it on purpose because it was the only way you could remove the information that suddenly a year later violated an agreement that NO backers ever signed. You broke that trust, not Fox. What you should have done is state what you stated last night here on a KS update and have the new rules that you are subject affect FUTURE updates. I really doubt the vast majority of the backers would have had a problem with that path.
We didn't got the clearance to say that in the official update. However the KS was taken by me, I swear to God.
I wont hide that we had have some concerns regarding the KS content, especially lack of control over the comments (KS does not take any responsibility for damage caused to the IP or 3rd parties due to offensive/ bad comments).
And I can assure you that when you sign the contract for any IP it will state that your main job is to protect the IP then develop the product.
In regards to WIPs the Terms and Condition of the KS states that the final product may be different as shown, so that was covered by KS rules, and we make Fox aware about this from day 1.
However, once the page went down we had a phone call... new rules!
Edit: sounds like coincidence...
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".
Suddenly a grand chorus of.. "ooooohhhhh righhhhhhhhhhht" !
Could someone give me a summary of that, and why it generates such an "Oh right!" moment?
Sega and Gearbox are getting sued because the promo demos, screenshots, and vidoes they released prior to the Aliens: Colonial Marines were NOT indicative of the quality of the final game. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, Fox is not a defendant in that suit. If Fox is jumping the gun and extending a restriction on "bullshots" as they're known in the videogame world and extending it to the completely different medium of physical tabletop games despite them not being involved in the former suit, that is a harsh step on their part. In any case, their new restrictions were NOT agreed to by any backers and the KS campaign was a contract between PRODOS and the backers. They shouldn't have taken it down but rather let the new restrictions affect future updates, not try to erase the full history of the campaign. It's not really an "oh right!" but rather a "whaaaaaaaat?".
From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".
Suddenly a grand chorus of.. "ooooohhhhh righhhhhhhhhhht" !
Could someone give me a summary of that, and why it generates such an "Oh right!" moment?
Sega and Gearbox are getting sued because the promo demos, screenshots, and vidoes they released prior to the Aliens: Colonial Marines were NOT indicative of the quality of the final game. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge, Fox is not a defendant in that suit. If Fox is jumping the gun and extending a restriction on "bullshots" as they're known in the videogame world and extending it to the completely different medium of physical tabletop games despite them not being involved in the former suit, that is a harsh step on their part. In any case, their new restrictions were NOT agreed to by any backers and the KS campaign was a contract between PRODOS and the backers. They shouldn't have taken it down but rather let the new restrictions affect future updates, not try to erase the full history of the campaign. It's not really an "oh right!" but rather a "whaaaaaaaat?".
Its all about the IP and stock holders. I would do the same if it was my property,
Comments being troublesome for the IP? Having a ks page that says the page is taken down cause of IP issues is going to be so much better won't it -_-. I'm sure there won't be any troublesome comments about that either
Alex C wrote: I'm just thinking how much the backers would have loved this level of interaction in the comments section when the KS page was still up and running.
Maybe it wouldn't have generated so many negative comments in the first place...
BINGO!
We wouldn't have been complaining here or other forums for a start - these are places Fox can't control - Prodos did at least have some measure of control over the KS comments - they could remove comments for breaching KS rules. here, they can do nothing and we can potentially say anything we like about Fox - and, this place is read by potentially far more people than the KS. Which is more damaging? A forum you can control (but didn't bother) or a forum you cannot? (rhetorical)
I'm still trying to think what was said on the KS comments page that could have been so damaging to Fox and/or their IP, and for the life of me I can't think of anything. Sure there were discussions about other companies' related products (perhaps unlicenced for all we know), but that will happen wherever. Sure there were a few backers expressing their frustration at lack of updates or slow delivery, but nothing abnormal, all to be expected in the world of KS, and frankly a situation Prodos could and should have managed better.
Nope, I'm stumped - I've got nothing - except for one small but rather niggling point if you're Fox. Every time Prodos have been criticized for not showing us something or not telling us something or not posting an update throughout this project, they've almost always blamed Fox. "We're waiting on Fox for approval", "Fox won't allow us to show this or that" etc etc. It's been relentless, and I should think, potentially extremely damaging to Fox and most certainly extremely damaging to the relationship between Prodos and Fox.
As for pictures of WIP that we've seen that Fox would rather we had not, Between you, that horse left the stable some time ago. Most if not all the pictures are available elsewhere on the internet. Most are in our own email boxes anyway. You're closing a door to keep an animal in, but the animal is at the bottom of the field already. The action is ridiculous. In the unlikely event the product you finally deliver is not reasonably comparable to the photos we've been shown, you're still going to cop it in a big way from your backers.
Warzone wrote:Totally agreed, this is why we have every official communication approved by the Fox, we say that all the time, just to make sure its not coming only from Prodos but from the licensor as well.
You do realize that Fox were never ever mentioned on your home page in the KS? That we effectively have a contract with Prodos not Fox? That the only "proof" any of us have that Fox is involved is your own say so? I'm sure you're familiar with the word "hearsay". That's all we have on that matter - nothing. Just as there were a group of backers yesterday that tried to suggest the email I posted from kickstarter was something I'd invented, your "official" update is no more valid. Should we believe that it is official? Yup, we should. But we're right back to that trust word again now aren't we?
angelofvengeance wrote: Can we just calm the feth down please? Mods WILL lock this thread...
I think we are all fairly calm here. Nobody is being abusive, it's all pretty well thought through debate on both sides. Mods are even involved in the discussions, and have posted no warnings (because they've had no reason to)
No reason to believe at this point that there is any cause to lock the thread.
And it's by far the most sensible debate between Prodos and disgruntled backers that I've seen in the past 3 weeks. It's a shame it didn't happen sooner, it's a shame it's not happening on a live KS page, but at least it is happening (and I commend Prodos for that).
Warzone wrote:Totally agreed, this is why we have every official communication approved by the Fox, we say that all the time, just to make sure its not coming only from Prodos but from the licensor as well.
Lets be real here, there is no way that Fox would have let us do this project for so long I we did not have a license for AvP...
If you don't believe me how the LD of Fox works, please run your own Alien KS without a license and lets see how long it will last. We got mail after 5h of running AvP, saying that they can "see" it.
Also, I am not an idiot as to risk our company and 20+ employees jobs by taking a risk of getting sued or losing the license and risk the chance of being closed down just just to say "approved by Fox" were it was not the case.
Lets be real here, there is no way that Fox would let us do this for so long I we did not have a license for AvP...
If you don't believe me how the LD of Fox works, please run an Alien KS and lets see how long it will last. We got mail after 5h of ruining it, that they can "see" it.
Also, I am not an idiot to risk our company and 20+ employees jobs also taking risk of getting sued or loosing the license and being close down just just to say "approved by Fox" were it was not the case.
I know it is just a typo but there is a wholelotta irony in the bolded part given the developments of the past few weeks.
yeah,
I would like product soon this is going to far, you've become offensive to me the customer.
Your not giving clear indications of what's going on.
So when are you going to reply to my facebook messages? Seems hypocritical that you would slam KS for not responding to your emails while you ignore your customers.
Or do I really have to swear at you too?
What's happened to the first wave you promised a few months ago?
Why dont you send the minis that are ready? You say they have already passed approval.
If it's a cost thing I'll pay for my packages postage, you may then send the missing minis and print materials as normal when they are ready.
Why dont you send the minis that are ready? You say they have already passed approval.
If it's a cost thing I'll pay for my packages postage, you may then send the missing minis and print materials as normal when they are ready.
Are you... what? That's not how it works man, if this is like any other product with a license like the AvP one, they can't just send out models without the Official(TM) Fox Approved(C) packaging on literally every single item no matter how small. Expecting anything else is frankly, delusional.
Why dont you send the minis that are ready? You say they have already passed approval.
If it's a cost thing I'll pay for my packages postage, you may then send the missing minis and print materials as normal when they are ready.
Are you... what? That's not how it works man, if this is like any other product with a license like the AvP one, they can't just send out models without the Official(TM) Fox Approved(C) packaging on literally every single item no matter how small. Expecting anything else is frankly, delusional.
That's not exactly how it works either. It depends on each individual agreement as to how and when the product can be distributed. For example, Mantic sent some of the Mars Attacks stuff in baggies with stickers on them, no official packaging.
If Prodos wanted to make a show of good faith they could always ask permission to send backers some stuff.
? 
