ImAGeek wrote: Are we really, really, gonna do the whole ‘high fantasy/low fantasy’ thing every time we see literally anything related to the Old World?
Yes, they're certainly going to try. Might I suggest ignoring any weird grievances instead of engaging?
GW has not done it for any other faction but just used the words that sound cool and "typical" for that language in English
why should they care
Well first off GW's French and German factions always seemed to me to have a good bit of linguistic and historic verisimilitude (I don't speak either language though) probably because French and German speakers are a bit easier to find in Nottingham.
But their Mesoamerican faction got little more than joke names, like no one even bothered cracking open a book.
And then there's the Chinese Communist Party.
Ug.
The CCP (like Fox News) bases a lot of its credibility on creating outrage. They routinely blacklist celebrities, companies, even whole countries for things like putting Taiwan on a list of countries, visiting the wrong shrine in Japan or not telling their version of history. So I would imagine that, at the very least, this game will get accusations of cultural appropriation, and if GW gives in to more juvenile tendencies, it could get GW and Total War blacklisted in China. And honestly the whole idea gives me a headache just thinking about it.
Being blacklisted in China is a mark of honor at this point.
but also GW is british, when was the last time they were culturally sensitive about far east in general? Frenchies and Germans only got off mildly mauled because they're nearby and Important.
GW has not done it for any other faction but just used the words that sound cool and "typical" for that language in English
why should they care
Well first off GW's French and German factions always seemed to me to have a good bit of linguistic and historic verisimilitude (I don't speak either language though) probably because French and German speakers are a bit easier to find in Nottingham.
But their Mesoamerican faction got little more than joke names, like no one even bothered cracking open a book.
And then there's the Chinese Communist Party.
Ug.
The CCP (like Fox News) bases a lot of its credibility on creating outrage. They routinely blacklist celebrities, companies, even whole countries for things like putting Taiwan on a list of countries, visiting the wrong shrine in Japan or not telling their version of history. So I would imagine that, at the very least, this game will get accusations of cultural appropriation, and if GW gives in to more juvenile tendencies, it could get GW and Total War blacklisted in China. And honestly the whole idea gives me a headache just thinking about it.
Being blacklisted in China is a mark of honor at this point.
but also GW is British, when was the last time they were culturally sensitive about far east in general?
Nowadays pretty much every company wants Chineese money, look at Disney or Actiblizzion. Although, Sega might be the rare outlier because they're...
Well.
Japanese.
And Japan's sole argument for diplomacy in Asia is "We both hate the Mainland China"
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Hmm, I'm not a big AoS or fantasy nerd/fan but a human faction being that effective with magic, isn't that usually the realm of elves or the lizard men, death factions in the setting etc?
Anyway, I understand the concept behind the faction, and don't find it lazy as such (it is established in the lore for a long time after all), but I do find the design aesthetic fairly boring... There isn't enough of a twist on the regular faction look to what you may actually expect historically.
The picture from above with the gnarly jagged sword is far more interesting than what looks like fairly conventional historic homage to ancient far eastern troops.
IIRC, it has something to do with Cathay's relation with Dragons.
Leaving aside the usual arguments that pop up everytime anything TOW is discussed (looking forwards to 10mm!). I actually rather liked the Cathay content, my only criticism of it is that it doesn't look grimdark enough, a bit too clean, not enough skulls etc.
I'm sure that GW have learned their lesson from 3e Tau and the fluff around Cathay will be suitably grimdark and morally compromised. The fact that we have a human realm being ruled by some ancient non human powers bodes well for that. I can't imagine they're 100% benevolent.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Hmm, I'm not a big AoS or fantasy nerd/fan but a human faction being that effective with magic, isn't that usually the realm of elves or the lizard men, death factions in the setting etc?
Anyway, I understand the concept behind the faction, and don't find it lazy as such (it is established in the lore for a long time after all), but I do find the design aesthetic fairly boring... There isn't enough of a twist on the regular faction look to what you may actually expect historically.
The picture from above with the gnarly jagged sword is far more interesting than what looks like fairly conventional historic homage to ancient far eastern troops.
IIRC, it has something to do with Cathay's relation with Dragons.
The other reason is that they are very far away from the vortex on Ulthuan, and very close to the Wastes, so there’s more magic in the air and it doesn’t get sucked away as fast.
But yeah the mage class probably have some dragon blood in them.
They described the two mage types as astronomers and alchemists, so celestial magic (lightning and prediction) and probably some generic element (remember it’s five elements in China; the one in the video looked like metal to me) chucking and unit buffing.
Given that the Dragon Emperor had enough children to make one a governor in every province he and the Moon Empress owned, I would imagine that the grandchildren would be magically blooded as well in some form.
kodos wrote: ... but still for Total War: Warhammer, not Warhammer: The Old World.
A distinction without a difference.
Who do you think designed the Cathay forces? Them, along with Kislev, are part of TOW's development.
Gallahad wrote: I would have thought the East Asia stuff would be Nippon, with Cathay being much more Indian/Arabic in influence but whatever.
Why would you think that? Indian Warhammer is Ind. Arabian/Persian Warhammer is Araby. They're distinct entities quite removed from Fantasy China (Cathay) and Fantasy Japan (Nippon).
Gert wrote: Internet: Grrr. AoS bad, bring back the Old World! GW: OK. *brings back the Old World* Internet: No not like that!
I really do hate nonsense comments like this.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well first off GW's French and German factions always seemed to me to have a good bit of linguistic and historic verisimilitude (I don't speak either language though) probably because French and German speakers are a bit easier to find in Nottingham.
But their Mesoamerican faction got little more than joke names, like no one even bothered cracking open a book.
I'm not so convinced that's a bad thing.
I mean, what's wrong with fun names and homages?
One of their leaders is giant frog called "Kroak". Kroq-Gar rides a giant not-T-Rex, so of course they called that "Grymloq" as a reference to Grimlock the Autobot. Tiktaq'to is a clever use of pseudo-Aztec spelling to take something we know and turn it into a name.
If I'm not mistaken they even put in Itzi-Bitzi and Teenie Weenie (not the right spelling) as a reference to this song from 1960. It's fun! Why can't we have fun?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given that the Dragon Emperor had enough children to make one a governor in every province he and the Moon Empress owned, I would imagine that the grandchildren would be magically blooded as well in some form.
The blog from CA did talk about "dragon-blooded sorcerers", so it's possible.
Rihgu wrote: Tiktaq'to is exactly as clever and exactly as offensive as Sum Ting Wong for a "Chinese" name.
It would seem to me using authentic meso-american names for a race of alien lizard people might in fact not be the most culturally sensitive thing to do either....
Rihgu wrote: Tiktaq'to is exactly as clever and exactly as offensive as Sum Ting Wong for a "Chinese" name.
It would seem to me using authentic meso-american names for a race of alien lizard people might in fact not be the most culturally sensitive thing to do either....
This is true. They should use authentic alien lizard people names.
But seriously, it's possible to pay homage without reducing it to jokes. There could be an Oldblood or Slaan named Moctezuma (although, there shouldn't be, because the 'm' phonetic would be very difficult without lips) and they could be portrayed as a lizard version of the historical figure and that would be fine.
Oxyotl is... fine. Nothing offensive there. The... golden blowpipe... of P'toohee? hm.
Rihgu wrote: Tiktaq'to is exactly as clever and exactly as offensive as Sum Ting Wong for a "Chinese" name.
It would seem to me using authentic meso-american names for a race of alien lizard people might in fact not be the most culturally sensitive thing to do either....
This is true. They should use authentic alien lizard people names.
But seriously, it's possible to pay homage without reducing it to jokes. There could be an Oldblood or Slaan named Moctezuma (although, there shouldn't be, because the 'm' phonetic would be very difficult without lips) and they could be portrayed as a lizard version of the historical figure and that would be fine.
Oxyotl is... fine. Nothing offensive there. The... golden blowpipe... of P'toohee? hm.
IDK, all I'm saying is that if your going to have a concept as ridiculous and fun as lizard people you might as well have fun with the names, rather than give somebody some weird sense of... what, normality? by giving your lizard people historical human names.
Rihgu wrote: Tiktaq'to is exactly as clever and exactly as offensive as Sum Ting Wong for a "Chinese" name.
It would seem to me using authentic meso-american names for a race of alien lizard people might in fact not be the most culturally sensitive thing to do either....
This is true. They should use authentic alien lizard people names.
But seriously, it's possible to pay homage without reducing it to jokes. There could be an Oldblood or Slaan named Moctezuma (although, there shouldn't be, because the 'm' phonetic would be very difficult without lips) and they could be portrayed as a lizard version of the historical figure and that would be fine.
Oxyotl is... fine. Nothing offensive there. The... golden blowpipe... of P'toohee? hm.
IDK, all I'm saying is that if your going to have a concept as ridiculous and fun as lizard people you might as well have fun with the names, rather than give somebody some weird sense of... what, normality? by giving your lizard people historical human names.
It seems off to me.
I agree with that. It's just they decided to make it bad by doing it half pseudo-real and half jokes.
If we had Teechi-weechi, Tiktaq'to, Kroak, the Golden Blowpipe of P'toohee, and NOT Oxyotl, Chotec, Sotek, etc, it'd be fine. Just weird alien names for weird alien people. But then they went and were like "okay so this half is the normal ones, and they're Meso-American inspired, and they're cool, but also this other half of them is cheeky jokes with completely callous disregard for the cultures and people we're pulling inspiration from".
I understand that when all these ideas were first developing, GW was very, very progressive and portrayed colonizers negatively and natives positively and all that but the "woke" of the 1980s was still... rough. People were still "figuring it out", so to speak. Like most of their poor taste jokes, they can be left in the past.
Arn't at least some of the names you pointed out themselves references? Like Sotek is for sure a shout out to Sobek, the ancient Egyptian Crocodile God, so it still having fun - as well as Oxyolt, which seems like a reference to the Axolotl salamander.
Yes, that's basically the heart of what I'm saying. There are good spirit references and bad spirit references, and mixing both is perhaps worse than just doing bad spirit references because it shows you know exactly what you're doing.
And the bad spirit references are disconnected enough from real language that you'd at least have plausible deniability.
Tiktaq'to doesn't actually feel/seem Meso-American, and you could pass that off as just a silly alien name if there wasn't actual good spirit references right next to it.
I don't think I agree with your supposition enough to get me fully on board.
I very much understand the idea of wanting a greater degree of cultural sensitivity and agree with it.
I'm also not huge on giving a carte blanche to do/say anything based on the "who is it hurting?" question. Because the answer to that is always someone, for some reason (regardless of if it makes sense to anyone else) - so it's a pointless question to ask when the answer is always the same.
But it's also not like anyone can make a blanket determination on these things either, and there's always going to be disagreement on what is or isn't appropriate. It's forever a case by case basis, and I have a hard time seeing the issue with lizardman naming.
The good spirit references are made with reason, and the rest are silly puns made using what a bunch of syllables that some 80's British guys thought were Mesoamerican sounding, but to my knowledge, aren't. (At least not as how most native English speakers would sound saying them. But then I'm not qualified to speak authoritatively about that, either )
kodos wrote: ... but still for Total War: Warhammer, not Warhammer: The Old World.
A distinction without a difference.
Who do you think designed the Cathay forces? Them, along with Kislev, are part of TOW's development.
they are, but going by the assumption that those 2 are now the starter faction or being among the first new releases means the game is ~3-4 years away
so you can call me excited in 2-3 years when the release is there and not were we are in a stage were everything can still be stopped and put on a shelf because someone thinks the resources are better off with another project
yet if the game is just 1-2 years away, no need to be excited about Cathay or Kislev as those won't be in the first waves of the release and are subject of change
same as assuming that everything we see on the trailer will be there as models too, maybe but just because there is an artwork does not mean it is a first wave release or released at all
we knew that Cathay was coming to TW, we knew what will be there for the most part (as the basic layout of the army was already in the background) and the new things are the different kinds of smaller dragons and the stronger magic
until I am not seeing any previews of models or rules, no hype based on "GW cannot be that stupid of not releasing this"
Theophony wrote: It’s not limited to just the lizard men, GW is an equal opportunity offender.
Mag irk thrakka (however he is spelled) was making fun of Margret Thatcher
Vulkan Hest an is Vulkan he’s tan referencing the fact that he is black
Get over being offended for someone else and live your life, or at least stop trying to police others.
Both of those aren't true.
Ghaz's name isn't a pun on Thatcher, this was debunked a while ago by one of the old design team.
The He'stan thing also isn't true and nobody has ever been able to produce any shred of evidence to support it outside of "but 4chan says so".
I imagine the Big Guy will take care of that in time, but for the here and now they are thing that exists and companies have to either adjust to them or forgo the Chinese market.
Obviously GW today is not the GW or 20, 30 years ago who thought that considered making Cathay a land of pigs in fancy clothes. So I just hope they do Cathay well. I always liked the idea.
the MMO still exists and a Server is still running
problem with that one back than was, that it was advertised as WoW Killer, yet the gameplay had a very different focus with RvR and a lot of people that joined first because WoW is bad, left after the they reached endgame because it was nothing like WoW
(and it is still the only RvR game on the market because there are not many people who like that kind of gameplay outside Arcade shooters)
same problem games have now with 40k, people switching to other games because they want a better 40k, yet the other game is different and therefore bad so they go back to 40k as soon as there as a hint that there might be light on the end of the tunnel
I do wonder just why TOW project has Cathay. I can understand making some parts of the lore a bit less obscure as they're going back to the setting, but to design the whole faction as if they were coming to the tabletop seems quite a bit more than I expected? The way they worded it sort of implies they aren't intended to be for the game, but they did it just because.
I think it also settles the whole "The Old World is referring to just that part of the continent" thing and shows they're just using that term to refer to the setting.
I mean it's unlikely I'll get either the video game or the minis (well maybe some minis) but I am impressed.
My one worry is if GW can restrain their worst instincts. For example do they have actual Chinese speakers working on the project and making sure the names actually make sense and aren't just Chinesey word mushs, or even worse, terrible puns.
I think the only name we got was Nan Gao ("southern heights" if I'm not mistaken) a perfectly cromulant Chinese name, though an odd one for the Northern Province.
Yeah, yeah this is fantasy Cathay, not China but it does matter.
Using Precolumbion Americans as inspiration for the Lizardmen was cool. Till they started naming folks Grimlock and Tick Tack Toe...
Let's just hope GW can resist their more... immature instincts with this expansion. Cause reading about General Egg Fu Yong just ain't even funny.
And I can already hear the CCP's screed about insulting a billion Chinese...
See, I'm a bit worried about that as well. But given that they're making this in conjunction with Creative Assembly who have just recently released Total War Three Kingdoms, which seems to have done pretty well in China, things may not work out like that. If GW have the sense to listen to the CA guys rather than dictating things to them. Given how the last couple of TW Warhammer games have worked out, and that the two studios seem to collaborate pretty extensively, there's some hope.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I do wonder just why TOW project has Cathay. I can understand making some parts of the lore a bit less obscure as they're going back to the setting, but to design the whole faction as if they were coming to the tabletop seems quite a bit more than I expected? The way they worded it sort of implies they aren't intended to be for the game, but they did it just because.
I think it also settles the whole "The Old World is referring to just that part of the continent" thing and shows they're just using that term to refer to the setting.
I would assume that the unexplored parts are getting made both as a tie-in to TW: WH3 and because releasing the exact same kits as before but slightly better is hardly a way to generate sales. Something along the lines of "Oh look, Empire State Troops but with fewer options and triple the price". This way it's new stuff that the design teams can work on without a whole lot of restrictions other than "myths from different cultures but actually its real".
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Too late, they have dragons and magic. I assume their defintion of low fantasy is "poorly-equipped humans stabbing other poorly-equipped humans or mindless monsters in the mud".
Love me some Mud Stabbing Goblins. Wonderful stuff. Couple of dozen beleaguered Empire spearmen with a half dozen archers fighting to defend a middle-of-nowhere village against 30-odd beastmen. Great!
Also quite like massive demented dragons getting into fights with Greater Daemons on flying ships above a Chaos wasteland made of floating, bleeding skulls.
I think the trick with Warhammer is that there has to be some room for both. Having the Greater Daemon turning up for every raid on Nameless Reikwald Village is just daft. Expecting the Mud Stabbing Goblins to achieve anything of worth in the battle of Floating Bleeding Skulls is equally daft, unless they group up with a couple of hundred of their mates.
Also think that a big bit of Warhammer should be that while the Floating Bleeding Skull battles definitely happen, they shouldn't be so common that everyone just regards that as "Tuesday". Empire soldiers should be looking around muttering "Sigmar almighty, this is a bit crazy, isn't it?"
Mentlegen324 wrote: I do wonder just why TOW project has Cathay. I can understand making some parts of the lore a bit less obscure as they're going back to the setting, but to design the whole faction as if they were coming to the tabletop seems quite a bit more than I expected? The way they worded it sort of implies they aren't intended to be for the game, but they did it just because.
I think it also settles the whole "The Old World is referring to just that part of the continent" thing and shows they're just using that term to refer to the setting.
could also be the other way around, because all the models for TW were designed after the concepts for tabletop miniatures, it might have been easier/better/ to keep them compatible with the look of the other factions by doing the same
and just because there are designs for minis does not mean they will ever be made
Londinium wrote: Leaving aside the usual arguments that pop up everytime anything TOW is discussed (looking forwards to 10mm!). I actually rather liked the Cathay content, my only criticism of it is that it doesn't look grimdark enough, a bit too clean, not enough skulls etc.
I'm sure that GW have learned their lesson from 3e Tau and the fluff around Cathay will be suitably grimdark and morally compromised. The fact that we have a human realm being ruled by some ancient non human powers bodes well for that. I can't imagine they're 100% benevolent.
I really, really don't understand how people says that stuff has to be all grimdark and have skulls everywhere to be proper warhammer when you had stuff like High Elves.
The grimdarkness comes from the fluff and the contrast not by having everything being the same aesthetically, and if you believe Cathay won't be a land of corruption and internal conflict... I mean ,Tzeentch has a great presence in cathay for a reason, Emperor dragon or not.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Too late, they have dragons and magic. I assume their defintion of low fantasy is "poorly-equipped humans stabbing other poorly-equipped humans or mindless monsters in the mud".
Love me some Mud Stabbing Goblins. Wonderful stuff. Couple of dozen beleaguered Empire spearmen with a half dozen archers fighting to defend a middle-of-nowhere village against 30-odd beastmen. Great!
Also quite like massive demented dragons getting into fights with Greater Daemons on flying ships above a Chaos wasteland made of floating, bleeding skulls.
I think the trick with Warhammer is that there has to be some room for both. Having the Greater Daemon turning up for every raid on Nameless Reikwald Village is just daft. Expecting the Mud Stabbing Goblins to achieve anything of worth in the battle of Floating Bleeding Skulls is equally daft, unless they group up with a couple of hundred of their mates.
Also think that a big bit of Warhammer should be that while the Floating Bleeding Skull battles definitely happen, they shouldn't be so common that everyone just regards that as "Tuesday". Empire soldiers should be looking around muttering "Sigmar almighty, this is a bit crazy, isn't it?"
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Too late, they have dragons and magic. I assume their defintion of low fantasy is "poorly-equipped humans stabbing other poorly-equipped humans or mindless monsters in the mud".
Love me some Mud Stabbing Goblins. Wonderful stuff. Couple of dozen beleaguered Empire spearmen with a half dozen archers fighting to defend a middle-of-nowhere village against 30-odd beastmen. Great!
Also quite like massive demented dragons getting into fights with Greater Daemons on flying ships above a Chaos wasteland made of floating, bleeding skulls.
I think the trick with Warhammer is that there has to be some room for both. Having the Greater Daemon turning up for every raid on Nameless Reikwald Village is just daft. Expecting the Mud Stabbing Goblins to achieve anything of worth in the battle of Floating Bleeding Skulls is equally daft, unless they group up with a couple of hundred of their mates.
Also think that a big bit of Warhammer should be that while the Floating Bleeding Skull battles definitely happen, they shouldn't be so common that everyone just regards that as "Tuesday". Empire soldiers should be looking around muttering "Sigmar almighty, this is a bit crazy, isn't it?"
Well put. You pretty much nailed it.
Also dang, "Mud Stabbing Goblin" would make for a nice ranking.
I mean... doesn't this high/low debate kind of ignore that our real world, despite not having magic or monsters, had dramatically different economies and societies at the same time? If you looked at a sourcebook for historical earth set at say, 1400, you'd see everything from hunter gatherers, to stone age empires in the Mayans, to fully armored knights, the last gasp of the classical empires in Byzantium, and the efficient, well ordered Ming dynasty. Day to day life for a person was highly dependent on where they lived.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I do wonder just why TOW project has Cathay. I can understand making some parts of the lore a bit less obscure as they're going back to the setting, but to design the whole faction as if they were coming to the tabletop seems quite a bit more than I expected? The way they worded it sort of implies they aren't intended to be for the game, but they did it just because.
.
Cathay, Araby and the others were always part of the Old World setting. "Old World" was honestly not used all that much as a term either until it died and Age of Sigmar game on the scene, it was just Warhammer or Warhammer Fantasy.
It's just that GW never got around to actually making the army, just like how they reference things like Eldar Exodites in 40K. The settings have always been bigger than GW could support, which is intentional as that leaves them room to grow. AoS is just an extreme example of that these days.
In the end Warhammer Total War has the advantage that they can add new armies because they don't have to rely on the "army" itself selling itself in the same way. And they've got a licence for the whole setting and the team behind it clearly love the era and want to work on more stuff and give fans things that were perhaps only concept art and lore theory up until now. They did the Vampire Pirates and Norsca along similar lines. Sure GW central is overseeing things and many of these designs might well one day appear as models through the Old World game that's coming back at some stage. However they might still never reach that point. If they do or don't it doesn't really matter for the TW Game; its its own thing and being able to take us to new places and see things and get bits of lore and such that might otherwise have remaind in the vaults of GW - is fantastic.
If somebody asked me to reboot WFB (which, while GW has been overly coy about it, what TOW seemingly is), the obvious first choice is to play the hits. Empire, High Elves, Dwarves, O&G, Chaos, Undead.
But...
Then you remember that all of those armies are widely in circulation and most of them have perfectly good plastic kits that could be put back into production.
The big brain play is to create all new armies, so people buy new stuff. Kislev, Cathay, hell maybe we'll see some Tilea or Araby.
Polonius wrote: I mean... doesn't this high/low debate kind of ignore that our real world, despite not having magic or monsters, had dramatically different economies and societies at the same time? If you looked at a sourcebook for historical earth set at say, 1400, you'd see everything from hunter gatherers, to stone age empires in the Mayans, to fully armored knights, the last gasp of the classical empires in Byzantium, and the efficient, well ordered Ming dynasty. Day to day life for a person was highly dependent on where they lived.
this is usually the problem with any Hollywood setting in the Mediaval time period, ignoring what was already available and know but mixing in stuff that just looks old so that people get it is in the past
a director of a BBC Dark Age documentery once said that they have a ratio of 20% facts and 80% fiction for all productions as people would not believe anything else
so we got stone age wheels, bronze age cloths, dark age weapons, renaissance armour and modern conspiracy theories to describe High Middle Ages
Polonius wrote: If somebody asked me to reboot WFB (which, while GW has been overly coy about it, what TOW seemingly is), the obvious first choice is to play the hits. Empire, High Elves, Dwarves, O&G, Chaos, Undead.
But...
Then you remember that all of those armies are widely in circulation and most of them have perfectly good plastic kits that could be put back into production.
The big brain play is to create all new armies, so people buy new stuff. Kislev, Cathay, hell maybe we'll see some Tilea or Araby.
My initial guess was that they will rather release thematic armies. Rather than High Elves and their entire roster, it'll be Lord Solinar (insert your elvish name here) and his sea patrol. Reasons being the ease of the production as new kits are introduced, I am highly sceptical we want 6ed spearman and archers, quicker update to multiple armies, greater control of what you put in the game as nowhere you are obliged to keep the old roster intact, reasons for old fans something to buy. I'll be surprised if Cathay is one of the first armies, along with Empire and Kislev, that's a lot of human factions.
I really hope they don't shunt all the Old World production to Forge World and have it unfold 30k style: eye-watering prices for lazy production/casting processes.
Gregor Samsa wrote: I really hope they don't shunt all the Old World production to Forge World and have it unfold 30k style: eye-watering prices for lazy production/casting processes.
30 British pounds for 5 Empire Swordsmen without arms. 20 British pounds for their arms (only sold seperately).
Ohman wrote: Why can't GW just tell us if they are planning to release all this video game stuff for W:TOW? They suggest they might, when they write about how all the work was done by the same team and brand the images with the W:TOW logo. But they don't tell us anything about the actual game or what the plans for it are.
I know the game is a long way off but why even announce it if they can't talk about it yet? The first announcement was made 22 months ago and so far all we know for sure is that we will be able to use our old models and that they are working on a new map.
Or it could be that they thought saying that the faction artwork was done by The Old World team and they were statted up for tabletop play** (**using 8th edition rules) is enough of a confirmation that they are, in fact, coming to tabletop that they didn't need to explicitly mention or discuss it any further. After all, not everyone is as anal and pedantic as some of the fans in this community seem to be.
What would happen if Warhammer ever got an MMORPG, if only...
Been there, done that, got the collectors edition, wasn't much good.
I'm not so convinced that's a bad thing.
I mean, what's wrong with fun names and homages?
One of their leaders is giant frog called "Kroak". Kroq-Gar rides a giant not-T-Rex, so of course they called that "Grymloq" as a reference to Grimlock the Autobot. Tiktaq'to is a clever use of pseudo-Aztec spelling to take something we know and turn it into a name.
If I'm not mistaken they even put in Itzi-Bitzi and Teenie Weenie (not the right spelling) as a reference to this song from 1960. It's fun! Why can't we have fun?
Theres a line between "fun" and "insult", and which side of that line you fall on often depends on your existing relationship. History can become a hard obstacle, especially when theres a lengthy history of bad blood between the two parties (to put things mildly). Its kind of like how those within the black community can refer to one another using the n-word without harm, and those within the gay commuinity can refer to eachother by the f-word (not sure if that one is word-blocked on dakka) but its automatically seen as an insult when used outside of it. Or how a good friend of yours can refer to you using some colorful vocabulary, but if a total stranger on the street said the same you would get a flash of anger and have to restrain yourself from physically assaulting them.
Its important that when you're "having fun" the "fun" be "fun" for both parties. A schoolyard bully calling you mocking names or punching you in the gut is certainly having fun - but are you?
They're not real!!!
It's fiction, and not some grand statement from GW that they think the ancient Aztecs were akin to "lizard people".
Great. If they aren't real then they can abandon the references to real world cultures, languages, and aesthetics and invent their own unique unreal culture, language and aesthetics to use instead. On the other hand, if they are going to base the Lizardmen on a real world culture, language, and aesthetic then they need to be respectful of it. "They're not real" is not a justification to do otherwise, the real world references there are painfully obvious and by using them you are tying them to something real.
Rihgu wrote:
Tiktaq'to is exactly as clever and exactly as offensive as Sum Ting Wong for a "Chinese" name.
Why? Who exactly are they offending?
They are offending every Chinese guy who was unpleasantly mocked by an english speaker using that "joke" (and others like it) on the basis of that persons race or language. By extension, it offends the entirety of that race/language/culture simply on the basis that its an attack rooted in a stereotype and directed against the culture/race/language, etc. as a whole. "Sum Ting Wong" (and similar such things) is not an attack against an individual, even if it is only used to refer to one person - its an attack rooted in an element of shared identity and therefore attacks all people who share that identity simultaneously.
Theophony wrote: It’s not limited to just the lizard men, GW is an equal opportunity offender.
I've yet to see GW refer to any of its white characters as redneck, bogan, trash, gammon, honky, hick, hillbilly, peckerwood, etc.
Mag irk thrakka (however he is spelled) was making fun of Margret Thatcher
myth, confirmed untrue by the person who created the character (want to say it was Rick Priestley or Andy Chambers but I can't remember, theres an interview out there).
I think it also settles the whole "The Old World is referring to just that part of the continent" thing and shows they're just using that term to refer to the setting.
And yet, the only references to The Old World setting are always accompanied by a map which depicts only The Old World continent and the areas immediately adjacent to it.
The more offensive and hilarious the better.
I'm sure theres something which someone could say to you which they would find hilarious and you would find offensive. Everyone has their trigger points and things they will clutch their pearls over, even if you want to pretend otherwise.
chaos0xomega wrote: Great. If they aren't real then they can abandon the references to real world cultures, languages, and aesthetics and invent their own unique unreal culture, language and aesthetics to use instead.
So you can't do a pastiche of any culture?
Necrons and 1KSons have to lose their Egyptian motifs. Say good bye to any Viking aspects of Space Wolves. I guess the Brets can't have any aspects of French history to them, right?
Aren't the Brets a pastiche of British culture, including badly spoken/pronounced French for the upper classes because it was the fashion of the time?
Portraying the "Viking" cultures as drunken, belligerent super soldiers isn't perhaps the most sensitive way to treat them, so sure we can say good bye to that. At least they aren't also rapists and pillagers!
I'm not seeing anything super offensive or insensitive about Necrons or 1KSons, though. Don't see why we'd have to do away with that.
edit: If one has a difficult time seeing the difference between "this Meso-American inspired character is named Tiktaq'to", or "This Chinese character is Sum Ting Wong" and "These characters have Egyptian motifs" I'm not really sure what to say. assuming they're being authentic and not intentionally missing the point.
See if you can spot the difference in sensitivity towards a culture between these two characters
chaos0xomega wrote: Or it could be that they thought saying that the faction artwork was done by The Old World team and they were statted up for tabletop play** (**using 8th edition rules) is enough of a confirmation that they are, in fact, coming to tabletop that they didn't need to explicitly mention or discuss it any further. After all, not everyone is as anal and pedantic as some of the fans in this community seem to be
Could be... All I'm saying is that the return of WHFB raises a lot questions and it would be nice if GW told us a little more about it. I'm not convinced that Cathay is getting a miniature-release because I don't know anything about the upcoming game or what to expect from it.
I feel people are really reaching in their attempts to feel offended. As a chinese person myself, I don't give a rat's arse if a character was called Sum Ting Wong. Could be called "Ching chong, ping pong" for all I care, most Chinese names when romanized sound pretty silly, my father's side of the family's surname is called Hor, and we have personally made fun of how we come from a family of "Hors". Don't be offended on our behalf, us East Asians can be pretty racist anyways and unless you're the CCP, we usually don't bother pulling off the victim card/mentality. I've played Sleeping Dogs and I've heard the song "Ling Ting Tong" playing in the background through the in-game radio and I didn't mind it at all. If you're going to get your knickers in a twist over any callback to any kind of culture, I don't see how you can even go into any form of entertainment. You do realize everything mankind has made is based off some sort of cultural influence or inspiration right?
Rihgu wrote: Aren't the Brets a pastiche of British culture, including badly spoken/pronounced French for the upper classes because it was the fashion of the time?
the upper class was French by that time, and the lower class a mix of Germans and Scandinavians and the British that were left lived in Brittany
but more serious, Bretonnia as the French/English Kingdom during the 100 years war mixed in with some modern romanticized versions of King Arthur
Grimskul wrote: If you're going to get your knickers in a twist over any callback to any kind of culture, I don't see how you can even go into any form of entertainment. You do realize everything mankind has made is based off some sort of cultural influence or inspiration right?
Also think that a big bit of Warhammer should be that while the Floating Bleeding Skull battles definitely happen, they shouldn't be so common that everyone just regards that as "Tuesday". Empire soldiers should be looking around muttering "Sigmar almighty, this is a bit crazy, isn't it?"
Empire soldiers, absolutely. Lizardmen? For them it IS just another tuesday. Empire soldier may see a magic sword from half a battlefield away, once in a lifetime. A bretonnian knight may know someone whose uncle has one. High Elf peasant? His plow is made from discarded Elven Doomed Hero Swords of Destiny.
Grimskul wrote: I feel people are really reaching in their attempts to feel offended. As a chinese person myself, I don't give a rat's arse if a character was called Sum Ting Wong. Could be called "Ching chong, ping pong" for all I care, most Chinese names when romanized sound pretty silly, my father's side of the family's surname is called Hor, and we have personally made fun of how we come from a family of "Hors". Don't be offended on our behalf, us East Asians can be pretty racist anyways and unless you're the CCP, we usually don't bother pulling off the victim card/mentality. I've played Sleeping Dogs and I've heard the song "Ling Ting Tong" playing in the background through the in-game radio and I didn't mind it at all. If you're going to get your knickers in a twist over any callback to any kind of culture, I don't see how you can even go into any form of entertainment. You do realize everything mankind has made is based off some sort of cultural influence or inspiration right?
As a Chinese person myself, I am offended by Sum Ting Wong.
I'm not actually Chinese, nor am I offended by it, but I hope you see the point being made. There were jewish and homosexual Nazis, there are Black people who are opposed to BLM, gay Mormon pastors who have married women despite being out and gay in order to live a wholesom life as Jesus/God intended, etc. Your personal feelings of non-offense are great for you, but doesn't change anything given that there are countless others who personally are actually offended by it, especially those who have been personally attacked using that exact slur/joke/insult, etc.
Grimskul wrote: If you're going to get your knickers in a twist over any callback to any kind of culture, I don't see how you can even go into any form of entertainment. You do realize everything mankind has made is based off some sort of cultural influence or inspiration right?
Nobody is doing this lol.
I mean there are people in this thread are saying that naming a vaguely Aztecian style Lizard person being called Tik-Tak-To is somehow an attack on the Aztec culture/(I assume Mexican?) people in general, who no longer exist as an entity as they were back then and is just a tongue-in-cheek pun and not even a reference to any kind of derogatory term that is widely known.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who are Latin American/Mexican have way more things to worry about than some Lizard character in a niche hobby whose name is a pun.
Galas wrote: After the initial shock for seeing and army for the first time and the total war models beeing very much three kingdoms inspired... I like it.
If theres a land of magic in warhammer fantasy is proper is cathay with their monkey beastmen and terracota armies and dragon emperor that summoned a demon-meteorite to kill all the ogres.
I think it also settles the whole "The Old World is referring to just that part of the continent" thing and shows they're just using that term to refer to the setting.
And yet, the only references to The Old World setting are always accompanied by a map which depicts only The Old World continent and the areas immediately adjacent to it.
Except no, they aren't. There have been multiple instances of them using the term "The Old World" to refer to the setting as a whole, both for this project and elsewhere. It is not just a term used to refer to that specific area of the map.
Like how the faction we're discussing now is a brand new faction made for the TOW project, yet has absolutely no relevance to that area of the map.
Grimskul wrote: I feel people are really reaching in their attempts to feel offended. As a chinese person myself, I don't give a rat's arse if a character was called Sum Ting Wong. Could be called "Ching chong, ping pong" for all I care, most Chinese names when romanized sound pretty silly, my father's side of the family's surname is called Hor, and we have personally made fun of how we come from a family of "Hors". Don't be offended on our behalf, us East Asians can be pretty racist anyways and unless you're the CCP, we usually don't bother pulling off the victim card/mentality. I've played Sleeping Dogs and I've heard the song "Ling Ting Tong" playing in the background through the in-game radio and I didn't mind it at all. If you're going to get your knickers in a twist over any callback to any kind of culture, I don't see how you can even go into any form of entertainment. You do realize everything mankind has made is based off some sort of cultural influence or inspiration right?
As a Chinese person myself, I am offended by Sum Ting Wong.
I'm not actually Chinese, nor am I offended by it, but I hope you see the point being made. There were jewish and homosexual Nazis, there are Black people who are opposed to BLM, gay Mormon pastors who have married women despite being out and gay in order to live a wholesom life as Jesus/God intended, etc. Your personal feelings of non-offense are great for you, but doesn't change anything given that there are countless others who personally are actually offended by it, especially those who have been personally attacked using that exact slur/joke/insult, etc.
This just proves my point, guys like you say that it attacks the group identity, but when someone who actually comes from the group tells you that you're overreacting you get shut down for not being seen as valid since there's this invisible mob of offended people out there that they're trying to pander to even when no one has told them otherwise.
It's virtue signalling at its finest. Also, worse case scenario, oh wow, somebody got offended. And? Then we can open a dialogue and talk about why they feel offended and if its actually worth being offended about. You CHOOSE to be offended over something. People can get offended over anything nowadays and you have to factor in that in order to able to think and talk to people, you have to risk being "offensive".
But the Empire (Germany) and Bretonnia (France) and Kislev (Russia with a dash of Poland, similar to lumping China and Japan togather, one said) aren't offensive, eh?
People can get offended over anything nowadays and you have to factor in that in order to able to think and talk to people, you have to risk being "offensive".
Worse - the mob rules and you get "cancelled". We live in an age where the ultimate trump card hangs over everyone's head and is as easy to wield as reaching up and plucking it out of the sky and harnessing its power.
Don'r get my hopes up. I would love some fantasy renaissance Italian kits.
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Wha-Mu-077 wrote: But the Empire (Germany) and Bretonnia (France) and Kislev (Russia with a dash of Poland, similar to lumping China and Japan togather, one said) aren't offensive, eh?
Erm, isn't Kislev Poland-Lithuania, with a dash of Russia?
Hey guys - guess what - it costs you nothing to be kind. So, maybe just do that instead of requiring gakky jokes for your own personal enjoyment and acting like things that happen on twitter are the whole world.
Don'r get my hopes up. I would love some fantasy renaissance Italian kits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: But the Empire (Germany) and Bretonnia (France) and Kislev (Russia with a dash of Poland, similar to lumping China and Japan togather, one said) aren't offensive, eh?
Erm, isn't Kislev Poland-Lithuania, with a dash of Russia?
I mean, they have a Tzar, Streltsi, Boyars, Chekists, Druzhinas, Oblasts, Kreml etc. which are all Russian terms. Although they also have a dash of Cossacks, with "Ataman" being a Cossack term, and Ungols, who make up a significant chunk of Kislev, and who look very much like stereotypical Cossacks, with "Kossar", aka their foot soldiers, even being a butchery of "Cossack". The name "Kislev" itself is a play on the world "Kiev", which refrences the Kievan Rus, which in turn was named for the city of Kiev, modern Ukraine.
So not really, they're Russia-Cossacks with a dash of Poland, mostly in their cavalry.
Wasn’t Miao Ying the Chinese girl with green eyes from Big Trouble in Little China?
It's also a real name that real people have and isn't some forced English pun.
Worse - the mob rules and you get "cancelled". We live in an age where the ultimate trump card hangs over everyone's head and is as easy to wield as reaching up and plucking it out of the sky and harnessing its power.
Weird how people like Lindsay Ellis and Contrapoints have been cancelled multiple times and have not suffered much for it, and are still thriving. Also weird how the mob can't cancel actual honest-to-god pedophiles, racists, and the like but apparently DO have the power to cancel people for making jokes or whatever. Not that I've ever seen that happen. Cancelling isn't real.
I find the mindset that not offending people/not getting cancelled requires walking on egg shells... laughable. It is very easy for me to just not do offensive things because it's usually very obvious what reasonable people are going to offended by. Then again, I could be an exceptional person. Perhaps I have a super power?
Anyways, I feel like I'm probably fully responsible for derailing this thread from the low-fantasy/high-fantasy debate - wait, I mean The Old World rumors. I think it's very interesting that they statted up Cathay with 8th edition rules? Or maybe that's how they statted up every other army and wanted to maintain consistency. I would love to see CA release an article talking about how they translated tabletop stats/rules to the game! If such a thing doesn't exist already?
This forum (and life in general really) becomes a lot better if you just ignore the people who get offended by everything. What they really want is to treat you like you're a bad person for not liking what they like (or not disliking what they dislike). There is no reason to listen to such people.
People can get offended over anything nowadays and you have to factor in that in order to able to think and talk to people, you have to risk being "offensive".
Worse - the mob rules and you get "cancelled". We live in an age where the ultimate trump card hangs over everyone's head and is as easy to wield as reaching up and plucking it out of the sky and harnessing its power.
Rubbish. Who has actually been cancelled? Most people crying about cancel culture do so from their tv shows, radio shows, books or newspaper columns.
ImAGeek wrote: Rubbish. Who has actually been cancelled?
Well, in 2019 Alabama banned a cartoon for depicting a gay wedding. That's on a 2000 year foundation of conservative cancel culture that includes some quite egregious examples, like canceling women by setting them on fire and cancelling family planning by bombing clinics.
Oh wait, cancel culture is just when you oppose something that conservatives like.
Just Tony wrote: Why is it the same damn people who spam politics in this thread every time it gets unlocked from the last damn time they pulled the same stunt?
IKR? Cancel culture this, cancel culture that, it's like you can't just name a cat in peace these days.
I'm confused by this thread. It seems to be a mix of people rehashing the high/low fantasy debate, others saying it is their god given right to use offensive terms/mild slurs to name people of other cultures due to the hilarity of it, and then a dash of people discussing the Cathay stuff.
On the first bit, I think part of the issue is regardless of the literal definition of high and low fantasy, everyone has their own personal image of it. I for one hear fantasy and just expect things like dwarves, undead, elves, etc just as default, and so things with them can be "low fantasy" to me, even though that clashes with the specific definition of the term. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who have that basic expectation when they pick up a fantasy novel/read up on a fantasy setting, and get pleasantly surprised when things roll up different from that expectation (humans only, different from standard fantasy races, or the fantasy races in different niches, or different power structures from the "standard" fantasy template, etc).
For the second, I mean it costs nothing to avoid being offensive. All you do is take the most basic of precautions, and if someone says "hey that is a slur" or "hey please don't say that, it is kind of offensive", the simple solution is to um, just not say the offensive thing? I'm not sure why people are dogpiling on the ones who are saying that maybe avoiding naming characters in insensitive manners is a good thing.
On the actual reveals, I quite like what I see. Lots of neat designs intermixed and also grounded with human factor of the mainline troops. So long as we avoid 2/3 of every army being dragons and golems it will look great. Spotter balloons floating above several units of infantry, with 2-3 of the big golems stomping forward and supported by a caster or two, scaling up to a bit more of everything at higher points. The only thing making me not so keen on them making models for the units is the inevitable cost of them in real world dollars.
Gallahad wrote: My word, those look terrible. Generic east Asian fantasy right at home in World of Warcraft.
Absolutely nothing of the aesthetics of the Old World in my opinion.
Why does everything have to be so generic these days? It just seems like all artists are clones of each other.
Hope the AOS crowd enjoys this at least with flying ships and giant golems, etc. This army would easily be at home in Age of Sigmar.
I totally agree!
Way to much WoW and AoS - and a leap away from gritty WHFB.
Extremely disappointed by ”Super High Fantasy Floating Mountains” and other over the top silliness.
Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.
But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.
Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.
generic, generic,generic, like the Empire isn't literally historical troops with larger skulls on their shields. You can't get more generic than warhammer in terms of design.
Gallahad wrote: My word, those look terrible. Generic east Asian fantasy right at home in World of Warcraft.
Absolutely nothing of the aesthetics of the Old World in my opinion.
Why does everything have to be so generic these days? It just seems like all artists are clones of each other.
Hope the AOS crowd enjoys this at least with flying ships and giant golems, etc. This army would easily be at home in Age of Sigmar.
Hope the AOS crowd enjoys this at least with flying ships and giant golems, etc. This army wo
I totally agree!
Way to much WoW and AoS - and a leap away from gritty WHFB.
Extremely disappointed by ”Super High Fantasy Floating Mountains” and other over the top silliness.
I liked the infrastructure of the cities, but not the floating hills and mountains, is way out of place of the setting. Man can argue that Fozzrik's Flying Fortress is cannon since Blood in the Badlands, but the multiplying it a thousand time is too much. It just cheapens the thing.
The balloon vessels and the statue warriors, in my book are on the edge of them being in the Warhammer World ( look at Tomb King constructs ).
My biggest joy was the ox pulled cannons and rank and file troopers of the army, in my imagination that was Cathay coupled with some dragons.
The setting where either pole literally crosses over into a plane of raw magic where everything exists only as a perverse reflection of the mortal psyche, where armies of daemons, undead, tree people, raging fungusmen, and more see battle regularly. The setting where city-sized ships roam the seas, where an immense living crater serves as the god for an entire race, where toadmen tens of millennia old direct armies of lizard folk who spawn from pools of liquid, where rat men shoot lightning from crystals, where plate armored superhumans ride flying discs into combat...
But yeah, hot air balloons with guns and floating rocks.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.
But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.
Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.
Do you believe “sum ting wong” or, as suggested by another poster, “Ching chong”, would only offend an extreme very thin minority?
We've already had that dialogue. Theres plenty of it online, search around for "Sum Ting Wong", "Ho Lee Fuk", "Cream of Sum Yung Gai", "Ching Chong"/"Ching Chang Chong", etc. and you can find plenty of discussion and discourse about how and why its offensive, some of it pretty well researched and going back into history like 100+ years discussing how these sorts of phrases and similar were used to alienate, initmidate, and oppress asian immigrants, etc (especially that last one - ching chong has a long history of problems behind it, going back to early 20th century at least where it was used in a literal nursery rhyme : "Ching Chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped off his tail" other variants with "And chopped his head off", etc.). You can read plenty of thoughts from other Chinese (as well as other asian ethnicities that were mislabeled as Chinese) about why its a problem or how they are personally hurt by it.
Drop the virtue signaling nonsense. Its not the "I win" button that you seem to think it is. As someone who is latino I've taken my fair share of verbal abuse about my ethnicity, heritage, and culture. I don't suffer it to be done to myself or my people, I'm not going to suffer it be done to others either, even if there are individuals who don't mind it. While I'm not Mexican (or for that matter, mesoamerican), I am of Taino (carribean native) heritage and I can say it would be incredibly insulting to see my own heritage - which was basically driven to extinction by Europeans - treated in such a manner. Likewise, I know quite a few people who are of mesoamerican descent (primarily Mayan, but I know a few Nahua as well), and this is the kind of gak that would absolutely hurt and/or piss off most of them if they came across it. They have a long and proud history which was basically obliterated by white dudes who felt entitled to do whatever they wanted with their land and culture, and now all thats left of it is are ruins and gakky "jokes" made by butchering their ancestral language? Puh-lease.
Likewise, "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD" is a load of bs that people use to absolve themselves of accountability, ownership, and and responsibility for their own gakky actions and behaviors. You cannot control your emotions (unless you're a sociopath), you do not choose to be hurt or decide what your emotional response to what someone else says to you is. If something is going to hurt or offend you, its going to hurt or offend you - there is no choice to be made there. What you do have a choice in is what you do with that hurt. The whole "you choose to be offended" meme comes from a speech given by Elder David Bednar of the Church of Jesis Christ and Latter Day Saints (i.e. Mormons) - the point he was making wasn't "make a choice not to have hurt feelings", it was "make a chocie about how you respond when your feelings are hurt" - in this context "being offended" is not referring to a state of being or an emotional response, its referring to the actions you take when you suffer that emotional response. The main point of "choosing not to be offended" was to not allow the hurt that others caused you to continue to harm you after the fact, with the specific example being people who were offended by the words or actions of other parishioners and choosing not to go to church in order to avoid encountering them again. Choosing not to be offended meant meant going to church anyway so you could enjoy the gospel or whatever in community with your loved ones, even in spite of being hurt by others present with you. As it stands, the chocie being made when people speak out against something they find offensive is the choice to fight back against an attacker rather than being a victim.
Even if you could choose to control your emotions - that would be a value judgement that needs to be made by an inidvidual, not something you get to dictate to them and dismiss as over-sensitivity, etc. If they chose to be offended by something, then that would be a valid choice which you would have to respect and take responsibility for.
Sure hope people won't mind me calling doom divers World Trade Fliers from now on, after all it's just a funny name.
I said/did something along those lines to someone who was once a very good friend last year to prove a point (no longer on speaking terms as a result). He's basically the poster boy for "feth your feelings" and "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD". Believe me when I tell you that he could not have touched the proverbial pearls any tighter if he tried. I have never seen *anyone* get (or maybe it would be better to say "choose to be") that offended and riled up so quickly, nor had I ever seen him attempt to resort to physical violence against someone - and the two of us had seen quite a bit of gak together. The great irony in all this is that I had a front row seat to the events of 9/11 from my 7th grade classroom window and lost family and friends in the attacks. He was on the other side of the country and watched it on tv.
Just goes to show you the people who blow off about choosing to be offended are full of hot air.
I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
Las wrote: I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
Personally I feel like there's nothing wrong since Tiq,Taq,To, isn't even a racial reference or derogatory in any way its just a silly pun reference to a game. But somehow we're going full false equivalency in comparing it to "Sum Ting Wong" which I also feel is being blown out of proportion. The demand for censorship is truly bizarre.
Back in my day censorship was stuff like, "you can't show this on TV because of subversive elements!" or "you can't say that on the radio because of subversive elements!" or "you can't publish that book because of subversive elements!".
Now it seems like "Maybe Tiktaq'to could be named something else a little more respectful to the culture the faction they belong to borrows so heavily from?" qualifies as censorship!
I'm not saying it should be censored, I'm just saying it should be put where it belongs - in a database of bad jokes. That way people could still see it! That's the opposite of censorship, even!
NinthMusketeer wrote: The setting where either pole literally crosses over into a plane of raw magic where everything exists only as a perverse reflection of the mortal psyche, where armies of daemons, undead, tree people, raging fungusmen, and more see battle regularly. The setting where city-sized ships roam the seas, where an immense living crater serves as the god for an entire race, where toadmen tens of millennia old direct armies of lizard folk who spawn from pools of liquid, where rat men shoot lightning from crystals, where plate armored superhumans ride flying discs into combat...
But yeah, hot air balloons with guns and floating rocks.
B-b-b-but ranks of infantry fighting with steel are gritty...
Goose LeChance wrote: I don't understand why they're releasing another expansion for Diablo 3
chaos0xomega wrote: We've already had that dialogue. Theres plenty of it online, search around for "Sum Ting Wong", "Ho Lee Fuk", "Cream of Sum Yung Gai", "Ching Chong"/"Ching Chang Chong", etc. and you can find plenty of discussion and discourse about how and why its offensive, some of it pretty well researched and going back into history like 100+ years discussing how these sorts of phrases and similar were used to alienate, initmidate, and oppress asian immigrants, etc (especially that last one - ching chong has a long history of problems behind it, going back to early 20th century at least where it was used in a literal nursery rhyme : "Ching Chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped off his tail" other variants with "And chopped his head off", etc.). You can read plenty of thoughts from other Chinese (as well as other asian ethnicities that were mislabeled as Chinese) about why its a problem or how they are personally hurt by it.
Drop the virtue signaling nonsense. Its not the "I win" button that you seem to think it is. As someone who is latino I've taken my fair share of verbal abuse about my ethnicity, heritage, and culture. I don't suffer it to be done to myself or my people, I'm not going to suffer it be done to others either, even if there are individuals who don't mind it. While I'm not Mexican (or for that matter, mesoamerican), I am of Taino (carribean native) heritage and I can say it would be incredibly insulting to see my own heritage - which was basically driven to extinction by Europeans - treated in such a manner. Likewise, I know quite a few people who are of mesoamerican descent (primarily Mayan, but I know a few Nahua as well), and this is the kind of gak that would absolutely hurt and/or piss off most of them if they came across it. They have a long and proud history which was basically obliterated by white dudes who felt entitled to do whatever they wanted with their land and culture, and now all thats left of it is are ruins and gakky "jokes" made by butchering their ancestral language? Puh-lease.
Likewise, "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD" is a load of bs that people use to absolve themselves of accountability, ownership, and and responsibility for their own gakky actions and behaviors. You cannot control your emotions (unless you're a sociopath), you do not choose to be hurt or decide what your emotional response to what someone else says to you is. If something is going to hurt or offend you, its going to hurt or offend you - there is no choice to be made there. What you do have a choice in is what you do with that hurt. The whole "you choose to be offended" meme comes from a speech given by Elder David Bednar of the Church of Jesis Christ and Latter Day Saints (i.e. Mormons) - the point he was making wasn't "make a choice not to have hurt feelings", it was "make a chocie about how you respond when your feelings are hurt" - in this context "being offended" is not referring to a state of being or an emotional response, its referring to the actions you take when you suffer that emotional response. The main point of "choosing not to be offended" was to not allow the hurt that others caused you to continue to harm you after the fact, with the specific example being people who were offended by the words or actions of other parishioners and choosing not to go to church in order to avoid encountering them again. Choosing not to be offended meant meant going to church anyway so you could enjoy the gospel or whatever in community with your loved ones, even in spite of being hurt by others present with you. As it stands, the chocie being made when people speak out against something they find offensive is the choice to fight back against an attacker rather than being a victim.
Even if you could choose to control your emotions - that would be a value judgement that needs to be made by an inidvidual, not something you get to dictate to them and dismiss as over-sensitivity, etc. If they chose to be offended by something, then that would be a valid choice which you would have to respect and take responsibility for.
Sure hope people won't mind me calling doom divers World Trade Fliers from now on, after all it's just a funny name.
I said/did something along those lines to someone who was once a very good friend last year to prove a point (no longer on speaking terms as a result). He's basically the poster boy for "feth your feelings" and "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD". Believe me when I tell you that he could not have touched the proverbial pearls any tighter if he tried. I have never seen *anyone* get (or maybe it would be better to say "choose to be") that offended and riled up so quickly, nor had I ever seen him attempt to resort to physical violence against someone - and the two of us had seen quite a bit of gak together. The great irony in all this is that I had a front row seat to the events of 9/11 from my 7th grade classroom window and lost family and friends in the attacks. He was on the other side of the country and watched it on tv.
Just goes to show you the people who blow off about choosing to be offended are full of hot air.
And there it is. It's not really about the people you claim to care about, its you projecting your own victim mentality onto the game and how it could be somehow construed as an attack on Mexican people. You assume some bizarre position of moral superiority and self-imposed defender position for something no one has even really raised as a problem besides yourself. You're not some kind of martyr for getting upset on other people's behalf and honestly its even more belittling when you're not even part of the group that's supposed to be offended. Has anyone before actually had an issue with the TikTaq,To name until you brought it up? The name has been in print since when WFB was still being supported back in 7th edition. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then or now. I don't understand people who jump through hoops to find things to be upset about something so innocuous in a game. The self-righteousness that comes from fighting the perceived injustices from non-existent problems shows that the idea of the "white-man's burden" has managed to transmit over to other races fairly well.
Also, for what its worth, I would probably laugh if someone called their Doom Divers World Trade Fliers, I've always been partial to 9/11 jokes, I'm certain it would go over pretty well in some Middle Eastern countries too.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.
But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.
Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.
Do you believe “sum ting wong” or, as suggested by another poster, “Ching chong”, would only offend an extreme very thin minority?
Polonius wrote: I find the desire to treat a dad joke name for a minor character as the pinnacle of western Civilization freaking hilarious.
It was a cringy pun at it's best, and can't see why anybody would object a new name that's not so obnoxious.
I mean pretty much all of the Lizardmen names are cringy puns, that's kind of the whole charm and character for when they were written, its not exclusive to TikTaq,To.
Lord Kroak - I mean its a dead frog, not the most subtle pun here lol.
Tenehuini, Prophet of Sotek - Teeny Weeny, another great pun
Kroq Gar - As in Kroq Gar Dile (Crocodile)
And then you have the dinobot references for some of the mounts they have.
It'd be the equivalent of changing the "OI YA GIT" Ork speech to regular Gothic because Orks are making fun/a reference to the football hooligans in Britain and that's offensive to them.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.
But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.
Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.
Do you believe “sum ting wong” or, as suggested by another poster, “Ching chong”, would only offend an extreme very thin minority?
Are those names in the game?
This was a conversation about whether or not they should be. Whether the kinds of humor that flew inthe 80’s and 90’s would fly today.
I suppose we should just consider it a win that the faction representing an Asian culture is human.
Las wrote: I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
It's pretty much one person having a personal incoherent rant about an issue that doesn't exist - neither Cathayn lord has an offensive name. What we've seen of the Cathayan army thus far is respectful of Chinese culture. There is nothing to be offended by - other than the desire to be offended.
God I hope GW releases some actual images of TOW miniatutres/details on the game soon. I can't wait until people on here start whinging about how GW has killed WHFB all over again rather than ridiculous arguments over 10mm scale, people unable to read between the obvious lines in official statements (whether there will be Cathay minis, square bases), resin or not and non racist names.
As for your analogy, there’s a big difference in context you are ignoring. If England had the same prior relationship with soccer hooligans that it did with China, you probably would see calls not to portray them so much as dumb, aggressive primitives.
Las wrote: I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
It's pretty much one person having a personal incoherent rant about an issue that doesn't exist - neither Cathayn lord has an offensive name. What we've seen of the Cathayan army thus far is respectful of Chinese culture. There is nothing to be offended by - other than the desire to be offended..
m
This is a disingenuous read of the situation. His post was in response to multiple other posters calling for such “funny” names to be added to Cathay. There was one poster literally demanding the names be offensive.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As for your analogy, there’s a big difference in context you are ignoring. If England had the same prior relationship with soccer hooligans that it did with China, you probably would see calls not to portray them so much as dumb, aggressive primitives.
Las wrote: I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
It's pretty much one person having a personal incoherent rant about an issue that doesn't exist - neither Cathayn lord has an offensive name. What we've seen of the Cathayan army thus far is respectful of Chinese culture. There is nothing to be offended by - other than the desire to be offended..
m
This is a disingenuous read of the situation. His post was in response to multiple other posters calling for such “funny” names to be added to Cathay. There was one poster literally demanding the names be offensive.
I don't know why you're bringing up China, because in this specific instance I'm referring it to the Lizardmen pun names, which is not a reflection of any sort of race and more of a writer having fun making dumb names.
Las wrote: I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
Someone said they were glad this faction seems to be respectful of the real world source material and the reactionaries instantly went off their rockers.
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As for your analogy, there’s a big difference in context you are ignoring. If England had the same prior relationship with soccer hooligans that it did with China, you probably would see calls not to portray them so much as dumb, aggressive primitives.
Las wrote: I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?
It's pretty much one person having a personal incoherent rant about an issue that doesn't exist - neither Cathayn lord has an offensive name. What we've seen of the Cathayan army thus far is respectful of Chinese culture. There is nothing to be offended by - other than the desire to be offended..
m
This is a disingenuous read of the situation. His post was in response to multiple other posters calling for such “funny” names to be added to Cathay. There was one poster literally demanding the names be offensive.
I don't know why you're bringing up China, because in this specific instance I'm referring it to the Lizardmen pun names, which is not a reflection of any sort of race and more of a writer having fun making dumb names.
I was responding to posters saying GW should do that with Cathay now, not to GW doing that with Lustria back then. However, the thread is getting convoluted so I think we’re talking across each other’s points.
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.
But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.
Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.
Do you believe “sum ting wong” or, as suggested by another poster, “Ching chong”, would only offend an extreme very thin minority?
Are those names in the game?
This was a conversation about whether or not they should be. Whether the kinds of humor that flew inthe 80’s and 90’s would fly today.
I suppose we should just consider it a win that the faction representing an Asian culture is human.
Can you explain how those names connect to what I was saying? You responded to me specifically, but it seems non-sequitur.
CMLR wrote: As a third world country, playing Warhammer is like eating lobster.
More proof that these kind of "problems" are entirely the provenance of people who simply aren't affected by them, or don't have enough real struggles in their life so find ways to be offended on the behalf of people who either don't know, don't care, or both!
Cronch wrote: ... and british not being known for sensitivity or tact...
The hell???
BobtheInquisitor wrote: His post was in response to multiple other posters calling for such “funny” names to be added to Cathay. There was one poster literally demanding the names be offensive.
Where were people calling for funny names to be added to Cathay?
Daedalus81 wrote: Hey guys - guess what - it costs you nothing to be kind. So, maybe just do that instead of requiring gakky jokes for your own personal enjoyment and acting like things that happen on twitter are the whole world.
The whole world doesn't care that there's table-top game where a T-Rex has a name that references a Transformers character but spelt to look like translated Aztec writing.
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
> and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
> and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Excuse you? Sweeping generalisations much?
It's like I said at the beginning, these people just project the very things they claim to be against. Little slips like this just demonstrate they're not arguing in good faith.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The setting where either pole literally crosses over into a plane of raw magic where everything exists only as a perverse reflection of the mortal psyche, where armies of daemons, undead, tree people, raging fungusmen, and more see battle regularly. The setting where city-sized ships roam the seas, where an immense living crater serves as the god for an entire race, where toadmen tens of millennia old direct armies of lizard folk who spawn from pools of liquid, where rat men shoot lightning from crystals, where plate armored superhumans ride flying discs into combat...
But yeah, hot air balloons with guns and floating rocks.
We already had this argument 50 pages ago, got so bad the mods shut the thread down for a while. Some people just only see the dark gritty low fantasy elements of The Empire and actively ignore anything that doesn't mesh with that view as rare or fringe and unrepresentative of The Old World. All arguments about high fantasy fall on deaf ears, all proof to the contrary gets ignored. No matter how much crazy magic & monsters you point out exist, no matter what medium (models, armybooks, artwork, novels, game cinematics), they just refuse to acknowlege it's anything but low-fantasy. The best you can get out of them is "well, it has some elements of high fantasy, but it's rare" or "it wouldn't be part of most battles". Occasionally you can coax out an "OK, that stuff exists, but it isn't the focus of the game" as if an entire phase of the game wasn't devoted to magic. A couple of times there were a "Well, it is, but it's still not as high fantasy as AoS" /rolleyes
They confuse their favorite aspect of the setting (focusing on basic units of normal mundane human(oid)s with a halberd/sword/handgun) with the overall entire setting full of mages and monsters and demons and crazy wizard tech steamtanks or warpstone powered lightning cannons, giant undead constructs and Orc gods litterally stepping on enemy units. No amount of art or models or fluff or rules will ever sway them, as if acknowleging there's more to this setting than they like to focus on will somehow invalidate their enjoyment of halberdiers and rat-catchers
CMLR wrote: As a third world country, playing Warhammer is like eating lobster.
More proof that these kind of "problems" are entirely the provenance of people who simply aren't affected by them, or don't have enough real struggles in their life so find ways to be offended on the behalf of people who either don't know, don't care, or both!
Basically.
We only know about it if it is stupid mainstream for first world.
Warhammer is pretty much unknown here and if we are not native speakers, the jokes will fly over our heads as much as our jokes will fly over yours.
People losing it for us is not flattering, is stupid.
Yet again, we have free health care and we never got into racial problems for some reason, so you win some and lose some.
Yeah, with those kinds of people I find it usually is projection. Somehow a joke name is offensive to a culture, but generalizing a culture as being insensitive is just fine. This is why I put the "virtue signaling" or "SJW" people on ignore. By and large they are really just bad people.
CMLR wrote: As a third world country, playing Warhammer is like eating lobster.
More proof that these kind of "problems" are entirely the provenance of people who simply aren't affected by them, or don't have enough real struggles in their life so find ways to be offended on the behalf of people who either don't know, don't care, or both!
Basically.
We only know about it if it is stupid mainstream for first world.
Warhammer is pretty much unknown here and if we are not native speakers, the jokes will fly over our heads as much as our jokes will fly over yours.
People losing it for us is not flattering, is stupid.
Yet again, we have free health care and we never got into racial problems for some reason, so you win some and lose some.
Thanks for sharing this. Some people in this thread need to read this and see that their moral grandstanding isn't something that's looked well upon by the people they're supposedly representing/fighting for.
Though inb4 someone says you're a minority of your own people and that your opinion is invalid for not following their narrative.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The setting where either pole literally crosses over into a plane of raw magic where everything exists only as a perverse reflection of the mortal psyche, where armies of daemons, undead, tree people, raging fungusmen, and more see battle regularly. The setting where city-sized ships roam the seas, where an immense living crater serves as the god for an entire race, where toadmen tens of millennia old direct armies of lizard folk who spawn from pools of liquid, where rat men shoot lightning from crystals, where plate armored superhumans ride flying discs into combat...
But yeah, hot air balloons with guns and floating rocks.
We already had this argument 50 pages ago, got so bad the mods shut the thread down for a while. Some people just only see the dark gritty low fantasy elements of The Empire and actively ignore anything that doesn't mesh with that view as rare or fringe and unrepresentative of The Old World. All arguments about high fantasy fall on deaf ears, all proof to the contrary gets ignored. No matter how much crazy magic & monsters you point out exist, no matter what medium (models, armybooks, artwork, novels, game cinematics), they just refuse to acknowlege it's anything but low-fantasy. The best you can get out of them is "well, it has some elements of high fantasy, but it's rare" or "it wouldn't be part of most battles". Occasionally you can coax out an "OK, that stuff exists, but it isn't the focus of the game" as if an entire phase of the game wasn't devoted to magic. A couple of times there were a "Well, it is, but it's still not as high fantasy as AoS" /rolleyes
They confuse their favorite aspect of the setting (focusing on basic units of normal mundane human(oid)s with a halberd/sword/handgun) with the overall entire setting full of mages and monsters and demons and crazy wizard tech steamtanks or warpstone powered lightning cannons, giant undead constructs and Orc gods litterally stepping on enemy units. No amount of art or models or fluff or rules will ever sway them, as if acknowleging there's more to this setting than they like to focus on will somehow invalidate their enjoyment of halberdiers and rat-catchers
I know. While I continue to try and be more friendly online I have a few guilty pleasures. The metaphorical feasting upon tears of the 'WHFB was gritty!' is one of them.
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Albino Squirrel wrote: Yeah, with those kinds of people I find it usually is projection. Somehow a joke name is offensive to a culture, but generalizing a culture as being insensitive is just fine. This is why I put the "virtue signaling" or "SJW" people on ignore. By and large they are really just bad people.
chaos0xomega wrote: We've already had that dialogue. Theres plenty of it online, search around for "Sum Ting Wong", "Ho Lee Fuk", "Cream of Sum Yung Gai", "Ching Chong"/"Ching Chang Chong", etc. and you can find plenty of discussion and discourse about how and why its offensive, some of it pretty well researched and going back into history like 100+ years discussing how these sorts of phrases and similar were used to alienate, initmidate, and oppress asian immigrants, etc (especially that last one - ching chong has a long history of problems behind it, going back to early 20th century at least where it was used in a literal nursery rhyme : "Ching Chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped off his tail" other variants with "And chopped his head off", etc.). You can read plenty of thoughts from other Chinese (as well as other asian ethnicities that were mislabeled as Chinese) about why its a problem or how they are personally hurt by it.
Drop the virtue signaling nonsense. Its not the "I win" button that you seem to think it is. As someone who is latino I've taken my fair share of verbal abuse about my ethnicity, heritage, and culture. I don't suffer it to be done to myself or my people, I'm not going to suffer it be done to others either, even if there are individuals who don't mind it. While I'm not Mexican (or for that matter, mesoamerican), I am of Taino (carribean native) heritage and I can say it would be incredibly insulting to see my own heritage - which was basically driven to extinction by Europeans - treated in such a manner. Likewise, I know quite a few people who are of mesoamerican descent (primarily Mayan, but I know a few Nahua as well), and this is the kind of gak that would absolutely hurt and/or piss off most of them if they came across it. They have a long and proud history which was basically obliterated by white dudes who felt entitled to do whatever they wanted with their land and culture, and now all thats left of it is are ruins and gakky "jokes" made by butchering their ancestral language? Puh-lease.
Likewise, "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD" is a load of bs that people use to absolve themselves of accountability, ownership, and and responsibility for their own gakky actions and behaviors. You cannot control your emotions (unless you're a sociopath), you do not choose to be hurt or decide what your emotional response to what someone else says to you is. If something is going to hurt or offend you, its going to hurt or offend you - there is no choice to be made there. What you do have a choice in is what you do with that hurt. The whole "you choose to be offended" meme comes from a speech given by Elder David Bednar of the Church of Jesis Christ and Latter Day Saints (i.e. Mormons) - the point he was making wasn't "make a choice not to have hurt feelings", it was "make a chocie about how you respond when your feelings are hurt" - in this context "being offended" is not referring to a state of being or an emotional response, its referring to the actions you take when you suffer that emotional response. The main point of "choosing not to be offended" was to not allow the hurt that others caused you to continue to harm you after the fact, with the specific example being people who were offended by the words or actions of other parishioners and choosing not to go to church in order to avoid encountering them again. Choosing not to be offended meant meant going to church anyway so you could enjoy the gospel or whatever in community with your loved ones, even in spite of being hurt by others present with you. As it stands, the chocie being made when people speak out against something they find offensive is the choice to fight back against an attacker rather than being a victim.
Even if you could choose to control your emotions - that would be a value judgement that needs to be made by an inidvidual, not something you get to dictate to them and dismiss as over-sensitivity, etc. If they chose to be offended by something, then that would be a valid choice which you would have to respect and take responsibility for.
Sure hope people won't mind me calling doom divers World Trade Fliers from now on, after all it's just a funny name.
I said/did something along those lines to someone who was once a very good friend last year to prove a point (no longer on speaking terms as a result). He's basically the poster boy for "feth your feelings" and "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD". Believe me when I tell you that he could not have touched the proverbial pearls any tighter if he tried. I have never seen *anyone* get (or maybe it would be better to say "choose to be") that offended and riled up so quickly, nor had I ever seen him attempt to resort to physical violence against someone - and the two of us had seen quite a bit of gak together. The great irony in all this is that I had a front row seat to the events of 9/11 from my 7th grade classroom window and lost family and friends in the attacks. He was on the other side of the country and watched it on tv.
Just goes to show you the people who blow off about choosing to be offended are full of hot air.
And there it is. It's not really about the people you claim to care about, its you projecting your own victim mentality onto the game and how it could be somehow construed as an attack on Mexican people. You assume some bizarre position of moral superiority and self-imposed defender position
lolwut? swing and a miss on that victim mentality moral superiority crap. Its not the 1990s anymore, having the emotional intelligence of a peanut doesn't make you cool or edgy or more enlightened than the normies. Theres nothing "victim mentality" about saying this - quite literally saying "this doesn't harm me at all but I recognize how it can harm others" is by definition *not* victim mentality, which is very specifically centered about perceiving *yourself* as a victim of other peoples actions. In reality, its called empathy - try it some time.
for something no one has even really raised as a problem besides yourself. You're not some kind of martyr for getting upset on other people's behalf and honestly its even more belittling when you're not even part of the group that's supposed to be offended.
Here, have a gander at all the no ones that haven't raised a problem:
Has anyone before actually had an issue with the TikTaq,To name until you brought it up?
To be clear, I'm *not* the one who brought up the Tiktaq'to thing, so yeah clearly other people have an issue with it, I only piled on after a number of others brought it up.
The name has been in print since when WFB was still being supported back in 7th edition. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then or now.
"The Golliwog was a popular childrens character in toys, books, comics, and artwork at the turn of the 20th century and entire generations grew up with it. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then."
"Racial segregation used to be widespread public policy with lots of public support. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then."
"Blackface used to be a popular form of comedic entertainment. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then."
"Lynching black people used to be a family affair that would bring together an entire community. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then."
"Keeping people as slaves used to be a sign of wealth and status. I don't remember there being any moral outrage back then."
Just because you weren't aware of the moral outrage doesn't mean it didn't exist, likewise just because something was accepted at the time doesn't mean that it can't be re-evaluated and recognized as being unacceptable at a later date. Speaking candidly I used to think gak like Tiktaq'to, Itzi-Bitzi, and Tehenhauin (pronounced along the lines of teeny weenie) was hilarious. Then I grew up and began to recognize how indirect and unintentional insensitivity feeds into a wider and farther reaching system of injustice and oppression which devalues the worth of individuals, artwork, culture, and history of out-groups to the benefit of in-groups.
The self-righteousness that comes from fighting the perceived injustices from non-existent problems shows that the idea of the "white-man's burden" has managed to transmit over to other races fairly well.
Why don't you try having this discussion without relying on tired and predictable rightwing cudgels like "self-righteousness", "moral superiority", "victim mentality", "virtue signaling", etc. Try having an original thought and building an argument that doesn't rely on trying to slander the mindset of the person you're speaking to for cheap points.
that's kind of the whole charm and character for when they were written
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yeah, with those kinds of people I find it usually is projection. Somehow a joke name is offensive to a culture, but generalizing a culture as being insensitive is just fine. This is why I put the "virtue signaling" or "SJW" people on ignore. By and large they are really just bad people.
Thats rich coming from one of the most intolerant, thin-skinned, and generally insufferable posters on dakka.
CMLR wrote: As a third world country, playing Warhammer is like eating lobster.
More proof that these kind of "problems" are entirely the provenance of people who simply aren't affected by them, or don't have enough real struggles in their life so find ways to be offended on the behalf of people who either don't know, don't care, or both!
Basically.
We only know about it if it is stupid mainstream for first world.
Warhammer is pretty much unknown here and if we are not native speakers, the jokes will fly over our heads as much as our jokes will fly over yours.
People losing it for us is not flattering, is stupid.
Yet again, we have free health care and we never got into racial problems for some reason, so you win some and lose some.
Thanks for sharing this. Some people in this thread need to read this and see that their moral grandstanding isn't something that's looked well upon by the people they're supposedly representing/fighting for.
Though inb4 someone says you're a minority of your own people and that your opinion is invalid for not following their narrative.
Wow. Moral grandstanding huh?
FYI - "Mexican" is not synonymous with "Aztec" or for that matter, Mayan, Nahua, Zapotec, etc. Saying "hey look the Mexican dude is cool with it, so we're in the clear" is erasure. Its like if you said "redskin isn't a slur because the white dude from Montana said so" or "the term 'Maori job' isn't offensive because a white New Zealander said so, etc. We aren't talking about the spanish language or Mexican people, we're talking about a specific population of people, the majority of which happen to exist in Mexico and Central America but still make up less than 1% of the population of those regions (in large part because of their displacement and destruction by Spanish and European colonists) and continue to suffer from discrimination and disadvantage. As CMLR said, playing Warhammer in Mexico is like eating lobster - if you're indigenous in Mexico then its more like eating literal gold given the huge disparity in socio-economic status between the indigenous and spanish-speaking populations. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here, but given the Zapatistas (perhaps the largest and most influential organization of indigenous peoples within Mexico) stances on social justice and indigenous rights, etc. I would be inclined to think ththose made aware of warhammer and the treatment of their culture might take a position more similar to mine than yours.
So much for that free healthcare never getting into racial problems - half of an entire Mexican state has essentially be in rebellion against the Mexican government for the past 25 years and is governed as an autonomous region precisely because of race issues. We can also talk about that recent string of assassinations of indigenous rights activists, like Tomás Rojo Valencia and Simón Pedro Pérez López - seems like something that would be pretty racially motivated to me.
FYI - "Mexican" is not synonymous with "Aztec" or for that matter, Mayan, Nahua, Zapotec, etc. Saying "hey look the Mexican dude is cool with it, so we're in the clear" is erasure. Its like if you said "redskin isn't a slur because the white dude from Montana said so" or "the term 'Maori job' isn't offensive because a white New Zealander said so, etc. We aren't talking about the spanish language or Mexican people, we're talking about a specific population of people, the majority of which happen to exist in Mexico and Central America but still make up less than 1% of the population of those regions (in large part because of their displacement and destruction by Spanish and European colonists) and continue to suffer from discrimination and disadvantage. As CMLR said, playing Warhammer in Mexico is like eating lobster - if you're indigenous in Mexico then its more like eating literal gold given the huge disparity in socio-economic status between the indigenous and spanish-speaking populations. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here, but given the Zapatistas (perhaps the largest and most influential organization of indigenous peoples within Mexico) stances on social justice and indigenous rights, etc. I would be inclined to think ththose made aware of warhammer and the treatment of their culture might take a position more similar to mine than yours.
So much for that free healthcare never getting into racial problems - half of an entire Mexican state has essentially be in rebellion against the Mexican government for the past 25 years and is governed as an autonomous region precisely because of race issues. We can also talk about that recent string of assassinations of indigenous rights activists, like Tomás Rojo Valencia and Simón Pedro Pérez López - seems like something that would be pretty racially motivated to me.
Do you even México, gringüito?
While there have been lots of unique cultures and civilizations all across territorio mexicano, we all tend to like to refer ourselves as "aztecas", no matter how far from Valle de México we actually are; it is a badge of pride, and then we add additional badges of pride by adding what other cultures our states and regions harboured, even including european colonists. In fact, legacy is a far more common value for us, provincianos, rather than chilangos/capitalinos, this increasing each generation.
Mayans are peninsular and central american, yet again Lizardmen are mayaincatec, because 'muhrica like to teach their citizen that their country actual name is "America", despite technically being "states that happen to be on the continent of America". We hispanos take a huge kappa against that. Also, México, Cuba and few central american and caribean countries are technically part of North America because there is such thing as tectonic plates.
Náhuatl people still exist, but Mexicas (aka "Aztecs") are quite the opposite, because caste systems from Spain diluted the entire civilization, and that resulted on our version of races (28 races, not just black and white), from which all of them got a gak life unless you were born in Spain, which is the reason why today we only talk gak about our skin colours as just that, gak talk, rather than actual racism.
The displaced people you are talking about are dropouts from the little help our goverment that ourselves voted for on free democracy for nearly 80 non-stop years that happen to live in the southernmost part of the country, right in the middle of a mountain chain of hard access in the middle of dense forests, precisely where los Zapatistas are kicking around.
We voted for this right wing party (btw, you, gringos, have a hard time with only two parties? we have at the very least 5 major parties per electoral cycle) because we had an open secret of "we steal you, but we let you steal too", making a country that is actually extremely rich but that has an absurd ratio of distribution of goods. Plenty of times some of the Top 10 richest men in Earth have been Mexicans.
Wanna know who invented colour TV? Can't remember the name, but he is Mexican.
Then we've got our drugs war, U.S. help with certain O. president that lend weapons to cartels and ended in gak and more.
I said that here Warhammer is like eating lobster, because it is quite expensive, but plenty of international brands are stupidly expensive too, so we rely heavily on piracy, getting stuff for us at fair prices that for you is dirt cheap. That why there were so many immigrants from our country decades ago: our money became gak thanks to one president making it drop harder than a Casandora Comet, because there was a time were Peso Mexicano was even stronger than U.S. Dollar, but then it all went to gak, and now we have to pay each year to own one single car, got in debt with plenty of countries and the money got worst, the dollar stayed the same, so we went to El Gabacho, picked the poorman jobs they didn't wanted to take, and send the money to México. Yankees ask us why don't we stay on México "because it is so cheap", then we tell them that it is cheap for them with their salary, but for our salary (currently, $14 U.S. min. per month) is barely enough.
Now? México has grown at an alarming rate; Ciudad de México is bigger than many of U.S. cities, is top 6 in I don't remember if overrall area, population density or sheer habitants, and really are not that different than 'merica with just having good, bad and ugly places. In fact, we can be pretty racist too, because we are your filter when it comes to central americans that try to go and live the long dead "The American Dream", and we are the ones who start to treat the immigrants like gak, and we are also starting to have an emergence of SJWs, #MeToo and other liberal stuff. People nowadays are far more worried about people screaming "puto" at soccer games (people's too stupid to realize that's an acronym for "prostitute", not synonym with "gay"), abortion, inclusive language and women been watched wrong on the streets, rather than narcos. I'm not gaking you.
México is not in sepia filter, nor is governed by capos. There sure are some states with major issues with narcos, and yes, tragically there are entire towns overrun by them and Grupos de Autodefensas, rebels because our goverment is gak, but we are not a Telemundo telenovela.
Happy Actual México Day too.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I miss the days when this thread was talking about 10mm scale.
I miss when yo could point out the silliness of the people for calling out AoS for being too fantastic and Fantasy better because it was grittier and better.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I mean, they have a Tzar, Streltsi, Boyars, Chekists, Druzhinas, Oblasts, Kreml etc. which are all Russian terms. Although they also have a dash of Cossacks, with "Ataman" being a Cossack term, and Ungols, who make up a significant chunk of Kislev, and who look very much like stereotypical Cossacks, with "Kossar", aka their foot soldiers, even being a butchery of "Cossack". The name "Kislev" itself is a play on the world "Kiev", which refrences the Kievan Rus, which in turn was named for the city of Kiev, modern Ukraine.
So not really, they're Russia-Cossacks with a dash of Poland, mostly in their cavalry.
That makes total sense; though I am a little disappointed as the Polish-Lithuanian common wealth doesn't get nearly as much love as it ought to given how interesting and powerful it was.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yeah, with those kinds of people I find it usually is projection. Somehow a joke name is offensive to a culture, but generalizing a culture as being insensitive is just fine. This is why I put the "virtue signaling" or "SJW" people on ignore. By and large they are really just bad people.
Lol. You really don’t see the irony in what you just said?
Also, I’m British. And right now, I would say that the UK is definitely not a place known for its sensitivity and tact.
Carlovonsexron wrote: That makes total sense; though I am a little disappointed as the Polish-Lithuanian common wealth doesn't get nearly as much love as it ought to given how interesting and powerful it was.
At the same time Warhammer Italy and Spain kinda of get pushed into irrelevance. And then there are the Border Princes which are European groups that don't even warrant a fake pseudo-country.
Ultimately it's probably not worth it to do a 1:1 translation of our world, so they pick the big notes and go from there.
Cathay looks ok in the trailer. I like the flying units they have. The terracotta giant moves like he is of human scale. Infantry looks ok, but I’ll have trouble remembering any distinct features the next day.
All in all, I had hoped for something more gritty and evil. It’d be cool to have an evil human race in warhammer, that doesn’t pray to chaos gods. Dragon horses, terracotta warriors with daemon like faces, slave/serf infantry, Grail reliquae with a corpse of a small dragon instead of a knight, Lion jade golems. They could battle chaos just as well, while being evil… dark elves do it.
I noticed this as well, but I think this is intentional. All the other big things in the game move like big things should (except the Jabberslythe... that thing is entirely unnatural!). Now it could obviously just be a cinematic and not representative of the final product, but I think it's interesting that they've chosen to represent them as being really fast.
Carlovonsexron wrote: That makes total sense; though I am a little disappointed as the Polish-Lithuanian common wealth doesn't get nearly as much love as it ought to given how interesting and powerful it was.
At the same time Warhammer Italy and Spain kinda of get pushed into irrelevance. And then there are the Border Princes which are European groups that don't even warrant a fake pseudo-country.
Speaking of, the only real disappointment for me with Cathay in the games (Total War/ToW) is that it will feature before we see more Tilea. The Empire clones in the Total War game that inhabit Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes are a bore, and I'd love to see the proper Dogs of War and Regiments of Renown feature in the video game, and return to the table top. I can see the commercial reasons for GW not to merely bring back the old setting/ranges as they were and explore new realms instead, but I can't imagine too many people owned full DoW armies back in the day. While Cathay stretches the map further east, factions right in the heart of the known world being swept under the carpet is a shame. Especially when they have the terrific aesthetics of Italian armies around the year 1500 (pikes! pavises! fancy knights!), with weird mercenaries from nearly any other fantasy race thrown in for good measure, because why not. Cathay looks pretty good, and I have nothing against it, but it still leaves me cold for now. Dogs of War though, ooooh, yes please.
(Of course, CA did add Ogre mercenaries to the game recently. Perhaps that was not just a test for Ogres, but also for a Mercenary system that could be expanded to other dogs of war one day. Who knows what's in the pipeline...)
I'm of the same mind as you when it comes to ignoring the factions that are right there, only in my case the one I want is Araby.
They're right smack bang in the middle of everything, yet they get nothing. Even more galling is that they actually had a Warmaster army, with miniature support, yet CA won't put them in the game.
It's a real shame because some of their background concepts are really cool, like the idea that the area is low on magic, so they have to capture Djinn to give them parity of power. Plus the Djinn themselves are very cool. Dreadfleet was a bad game, but that Arabyan ship whith the Wind Djinn blowing the sales, and the Fire Djinn (Ifrit, I guess) moving to attack was very cool.
Just Tony wrote: Why is it the same damn people who spam politics in this thread every time it gets unlocked from the last damn time they pulled the same stunt?
IKR? Cancel culture this, cancel culture that, it's like you can't just name a cat in peace these days.
"In Peace" will always be an odd name for a cat.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As for your analogy, there’s a big difference in context you are ignoring. If England had the same prior relationship with soccer hooligans that it did with China, you probably would see calls not to portray them so much as dumb, aggressive primitives.
When football hooligans - not fans as a whole, just the ruffians - stop behaving that way, we'll consider changing the portrayal. I imagine we'll meet back to discuss this around the year 3,000...
+++
Seeing an area we've had named on a map for many years get some attention is cool - sure, there are other areas you could point to and say "Why not these?", but seeing something new and different get developed is a good thing.
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
> and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Excuse you? Sweeping generalisations much?
Hey, I'm just telling how it is, snowflake. Don't get triggered, need some safe space to stare at all the stolen goods in the British Loot Museum?
It's hilarious how easy their fee-fees get hurt, but I guess they just can't take a joke these days. Don't forget to write the mods to cancel me. Literal 1984!
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: "Aztec culture should be respected, despite the fact they're all dead and were bastards when alive. feth the British though, they have a museum."
Come on, it's all innocent fun, don't have such a thin skin.
I miss when "be polite" and "stay on topic" were rules on instead of suggestions. Like, if they aren't going to be rules anymore I get that; I don't run the forum, their house their rules. But stop calling them rules when they clearly aren't, ya know?
Anyways, I will definitely be keen to see how these units are animated in game. The cut scenes may use the in-game engine but the units still have customized animations for the given cinematic (as well they should) that are far more intricate than how they move during gameplay. There is also how different things can look from the top-down zoomed-out viewpoint we take as players, and any further animation work that happens between now and release. Without seeing those things first-hand I don't feel justified passing judgement for good or ill.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: "Aztec culture should be respected, despite the fact they're all dead and were bastards when alive. feth the British though, they have a museum."
Come on, it's all innocent fun, don't have such a thin skin.
My skin's thick as Lady Dimetrescu, I'm merely pointing out your double standards, for it is amusing.
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
> and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Excuse you? Sweeping generalisations much?
Hey, I'm just telling how it is, snowflake. Don't get triggered, need some safe space to stare at all the stolen goods in the British Loot Museum?
It's hilarious how easy their fee-fees get hurt, but I guess they just can't take a joke these days. Don't forget to write the mods to cancel me. Literal 1984!
Oh I see. Now you've been called out, it's straight into defensive mode. Don't be so pathetic.
Also think that a big bit of Warhammer should be that while the Floating Bleeding Skull battles definitely happen, they shouldn't be so common that everyone just regards that as "Tuesday". Empire soldiers should be looking around muttering "Sigmar almighty, this is a bit crazy, isn't it?"
Empire soldiers, absolutely. Lizardmen? For them it IS just another tuesday. Empire soldier may see a magic sword from half a battlefield away, once in a lifetime. A bretonnian knight may know someone whose uncle has one. High Elf peasant? His plow is made from discarded Elven Doomed Hero Swords of Destiny.
Yes! And this comes back to the point made above about different areas of the world having different levels of technology/magic as standard.
(Though I actually think that Tuesday for the average Saurus is going to be Rat Patrol in the jungle for 7 hours, followed by a brief skirmish with a few Plague Monks)
The Empire, and to a lesser extent other human nations, have always been our "viewpoint" faction. Stuff that seems mindboggling us should seem mindboggling to them. Equally if you're a Cathayan peasant, 400 miles south of the Great Bastion, the most interesting thing you see that week might be a water buffalo. If you're a guard on the bastion itself, it may well be a case of "Bloody Tuesdays, here come the disc riding daemon maniacs again".
A good thing about magic etc. in Warhammer is that it ISN'T evenly distributed. Room for Mud Stabbing Goblins.
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
> and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Excuse you? Sweeping generalisations much?
Hey, I'm just telling how it is, snowflake. Don't get triggered, need some safe space to stare at all the stolen goods in the British Loot Museum?
It's hilarious how easy their fee-fees get hurt, but I guess they just can't take a joke these days. Don't forget to write the mods to cancel me. Literal 1984!
Cronch wrote:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: "Aztec culture should be respected, despite the fact they're all dead and were bastards when alive. feth the British though, they have a museum."
Come on, it's all innocent fun, don't have such a thin skin.
Spoiler:
I hate to ruin the fun by explaining the joke, but it seems nobody has gotten it. Cronch here is just using some of the exact same arguments and logic leaps that people earlier in the thread have used to defend culturally insensitive naming schemes / scoff at fears of future culturally insensitive naming schemes. Its actually kind of amusing how some of the exact same people who were yelling that "tic tac toe" and "something wrong" are the peak of class and humor immediately had a visceral reaction to the exact same line of logic.
Also think that a big bit of Warhammer should be that while the Floating Bleeding Skull battles definitely happen, they shouldn't be so common that everyone just regards that as "Tuesday". Empire soldiers should be looking around muttering "Sigmar almighty, this is a bit crazy, isn't it?"
Empire soldiers, absolutely. Lizardmen? For them it IS just another tuesday. Empire soldier may see a magic sword from half a battlefield away, once in a lifetime. A bretonnian knight may know someone whose uncle has one. High Elf peasant? His plow is made from discarded Elven Doomed Hero Swords of Destiny.
Yes! And this comes back to the point made above about different areas of the world having different levels of technology/magic as standard.
(Though I actually think that Tuesday for the average Saurus is going to be Rat Patrol in the jungle for 7 hours, followed by a brief skirmish with a few Plague Monks)
The Empire, and to a lesser extent other human nations, have always been our "viewpoint" faction. Stuff that seems mindboggling us should seem mindboggling to them. Equally if you're a Cathayan peasant, 400 miles south of the Great Bastion, the most interesting thing you see that week might be a water buffalo. If you're a guard on the bastion itself, it may well be a case of "Bloody Tuesdays, here come the disc riding daemon maniacs again".
A good thing about magic etc. in Warhammer is that it ISN'T evenly distributed. Room for Mud Stabbing Goblins.
Yeah that is always the image I had of it - on average Warhammer is maybe a 7/10 on the high fantasy scale, but that is due to some areas/battlefields/factions having extremely high levels of magic/fantasy that are balanced out by large areas of land and peoples growing wheat and potatoes whose only experience with magic is some hedge wizard who comes by every harvest festival to do a magic show. There is room for both High and Low fantasy in Warhammer, and even some of the more fantastical stuff gets grounded in reality by the more baseline troops they bring with them.
Cronch wrote: ... and british not being known for sensitivity or tact...
The hell???
Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Cronch wrote: > and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Excuse you? Sweeping generalisations much?
It's true - we historically *are*. And because I'm a Brit, that's got to be accurate, right? Isn't this how this thing works?
Albino Squirrel wrote:Yeah, with those kinds of people I find it usually is projection. Somehow a joke name is offensive to a culture, but generalizing a culture as being insensitive is just fine. This is why I put the "virtue signaling" or "SJW" people on ignore. By and large they are really just bad people.
Oof, sounds like a generalisation to me... Also, blocking and ignoring - sheesh, that sounds like CENSORSHIP!
Grimskul wrote:Some people in this thread need to read this and see that their moral grandstanding isn't something that's looked well upon by the people they're supposedly representing/fighting for.
Though inb4 someone says you're a minority of your own people and that your opinion is invalid for not following their narrative.
So the same works for me calling out the British, right? No point in non-Brits getting offended when I point out that we're pretty insensitive and tactless.
NinthMusketeer wrote:I miss when "be polite" and "stay on topic" were rules on instead of suggestions. Like, if they aren't going to be rules anymore I get that; I don't run the forum, their house their rules. But stop calling them rules when they clearly aren't, ya know?
Very much agreed - especially when we have comments from users outright stating "the more offensive, the better" - I mean, really, how on earth is that permitted to fly here?
Anyway, glad they're doing more cool stuff with the old world concept, and not just rehashing their old ideas again - if I'd want them to do anything with TOW property, it'd be this.
As for magic, WHFB was never "low fantasy", only that it has low fantasy elements, and uneven dispersal of those magical fantastical elements. The Empire, as the "human" faction probably led to a lot of "but it's low fantasy!", but even they had knights riding on fantastical beasts and battle mages. Compare and contrast to the High Elves, Skaven, or Lizardmen or Daemons, for who magic (or magical substances) were part and parcel of their daily lives.
I noticed this as well, but I think this is intentional. All the other big things in the game move like big things should (except the Jabberslythe... that thing is entirely unnatural!). Now it could obviously just be a cinematic and not representative of the final product, but I think it's interesting that they've chosen to represent them as being really fast.
Thats because they are reusing lu bu animations from Total War Three Kingdoms.
I noticed this as well, but I think this is intentional. All the other big things in the game move like big things should (except the Jabberslythe... that thing is entirely unnatural!). Now it could obviously just be a cinematic and not representative of the final product, but I think it's interesting that they've chosen to represent them as being really fast.
Thats because they are reusing lu bu animations from Total War Three Kingdoms.
economical reuse of existing assets, and it gets to imply a higher degree of refinement to their megagolems. truly two birds with one stone.
Goose LeChance wrote: You guys are so strange, I don't think your making the points you think you are.
It seems a lot of Brits enjoy hating on themselves. It's really odd, but keep up the good work.
As a Canadian I think my fellow Canadians are quite awesome and we're lucky to live in such a Country
I dunno, they seem to think we're getting offended on other's people's behalf when we notice their inconsistencies. I don't personally care if they think Brits are insensitive, I've already personally said I that I think that most East Asian countries can be pretty racist, so I can believe Sgt_Smudge as a Brit if he thinks Brits can be pretty insensitive, though in his case I think he's more on the sensitive side given his past post history. Just funny that they're willing to bring themselves down to the level they claim to be above to "make a point" (notice how its towards a target that's in vogue/popular to hate right now, a 1st world, mostly white country...hmmmmm, it'd like to see Cronch make the same statement towards a place like Haiiti or Pakistan). Also, likewise, I actually appreciate that I get to live in Canada and have fellow Canadians like you too in this thread. Hating on your own country as some form of self-flagellation is unfortunately becoming quite common in the Western sphere, I think its a general reflection of how people really don't know what they have until they lose it.
I hope the Terracota Sentinel isn't the only Terracotta warrior that Cathay has, it's not quite how I imagined them being, really.
The wiki described them with " Hordes of Chaos Warriors battle legions of terracotta automatons attempting to shore up the Great Wall with their own clay bodies," which to me implied ordinary-human sized soldiers, and the "automaton" aspect of them sort of suggested they werent' fully magical, but technological. I feel like them as clockwork soldiers would have been more interesting.
Carlovonsexron wrote: That makes total sense; though I am a little disappointed as the Polish-Lithuanian common wealth doesn't get nearly as much love as it ought to given how interesting and powerful it was.
At the same time Warhammer Italy and Spain kinda of get pushed into irrelevance. And then there are the Border Princes which are European groups that don't even warrant a fake pseudo-country.
Ultimately it's probably not worth it to do a 1:1 translation of our world, so they pick the big notes and go from there.
And it's a tradgedy. Tilea - I will forever await thee.
(That said, it is my secret hope that AoS humans will look more suitable for a good ol' fashioned 14th century fantasy Italian renaissance army than the Empire troops ever could manage)
Mentlegen324 wrote: I hope the Terracota Sentinel isn't the only Terracotta warrior that Cathay has, it's not quite how I imagined them being, really.
He will be... until the DLC.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The wiki described them with " Hordes of Chaos Warriors battle legions of terracotta automatons attempting to shore up the Great Wall with their own clay bodies," which to me implied ordinary-human sized soldiers, and the "automaton" aspect of them sort of suggested they werent' fully magical, but technological. I feel like them as clockwork soldiers would have been more interesting.
Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Mr_Rose wrote: Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, or something a bit more durable to tie-up units.
Really the more I think about how they've realized them the more disappointing it gets. Their obviously inspired by the real Terracotta army, so I always imaged them as that but turned into mechanical-powered automatons, slowly shuffling towards the enemy with unnatural robotic movement and the sounds of clockwork. I feel like that would have been a far more interesting choice, giving both a sort of uncanny valley feel to the unit itself, and showing the technological prowess of the most powerful human empire in the WHF setting. Instead we got...a glowing stone golem that just acts like an ordinary human but big? It doesn't seem to really do anything worthwhile with the idea, it being big, human-shaped and terracotta are all somewhat irrelevant if it's just created and powered by magic.
"Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, ..."
This would be pretty cool.
Make them cheap and weak... They are meant to die in droves so that human soldiers dont... then make the humans the more elite troops. Better armed and equipped.
The old Magic the Gathering "Yotian Soldiers" would be a good visual inspiration.
Mr_Rose wrote: Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, or something a bit more durable to tie-up units.
Really the more I think about how they've realized them the more disappointing it gets. Their obviously inspired by the real Terracotta army, so I always imaged them as that but turned into mechanical-powered automatons, slowly shuffling towards the enemy with unnatural robotic movement and the sounds of clockwork. I feel like that would have been a far more interesting choice, giving both a sort of uncanny valley feel to the unit itself, and showing the technological prowess of the most powerful human empire in the WHF setting. Instead we got...a glowing stone golem that just acts like an ordinary human but big? It doesn't seem to really do anything worthwhile with the idea, it being big, human-shaped and terracotta are all somewhat irrelevant if it's just created and powered by magic.
Make them the souls of criminals magically bound to serve as automata until they die in battle. They have lost their will, but feel all pain as the living do including the ever pressing hunger and thirst that their new terracota bodies are incapable of satiating. Only in death will they atone for their sins against the Divine law of the Dragon Emperor and lay at peace alongside their ancestors.
Grimskul wrote:I dunno, they seem to think we're getting offended on other's people's behalf when we notice their inconsistencies. I don't personally care if they think Brits are insensitive, I've already personally said I that I think that most East Asian countries can be pretty racist, so I can believe Sgt_Smudge as a Brit if he thinks Brits can be pretty insensitive, though in his case I think he's more on the sensitive side given his past post history. Just funny that they're willing to bring themselves down to the level they claim to be above to "make a point" (notice how its towards a target that's in vogue/popular to hate right now, a 1st world, mostly white country...hmmmmm, it'd like to see Cronch make the same statement towards a place like Haiiti or Pakistan). Also, likewise, I actually appreciate that I get to live in Canada and have fellow Canadians like you too in this thread. Hating on your own country as some form of self-flagellation is unfortunately becoming quite common in the Western sphere, I think its a general reflection of how people really don't know what they have until they lose it.
They/Their/Them.
You've used it already in this post, so I know it's at least in your vocabulary.
And it's not making a point or "bringing myself down" - it's stating my stance on the matter, a stance I held before this thread. Nothing wrong with being realistic about one's own country and it's various flaws and shortcomings: it's better than glossing over them and decrying any criticism as "self-flagellation".
Soy Dominicano, "Frijolero". I'm pretty sure I mentioned that in one of the previous posts you responded to.
Nothing you said is anything that I didn't already know, and really has nothing to do with anything that I said directly. It sounds kind of like you may have been offended or felt attacked/insulted and felt the need to defend your country? Why did you choose to be offended??
But seriously, if I did cause offense, I apologize. The point was not to attack Mexico or make it sound like some "shithole country", etc. The point was to point out that "Mexican" is not synonymous with "Azteca", etc. and thus not necessarily one in the same. I.E. Grimskull using you and your opinion as a justification for why Lizardmen names aren't problematic is misattributing ownership of the source of inspiration - while the Mexican people have adopted aspects of Mesoamerican culture and identity as their own, assuming that someone from Mexico is automatically of indigenous descent (as Grimskul seems to have done) is kind of like assuming all Latinos are Mexican. I.E. its wrong, and basically offensive to both Mexicans and non-Mexicans alike. Its just wrong.
The point of bringing up the Zapatistas was not to make Mexico sound like Afghanistan, it was to illustrate that the ethnic and racial divisions in Mexican society exist and have real world consequences, and that Grimskulls approach of treating it as a monolith is incorrect.
Happy Actual México Day too.
I'm having Chiles en Nogada for dinner.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm of the same mind as you when it comes to ignoring the factions that are right there, only in my case the one I want is Araby.
They're right smack bang in the middle of everything, yet they get nothing. Even more galling is that they actually had a Warmaster army, with miniature support, yet CA won't put them in the game.
It's a real shame because some of their background concepts are really cool, like the idea that the area is low on magic, so they have to capture Djinn to give them parity of power. Plus the Djinn themselves are very cool. Dreadfleet was a bad game, but that Arabyan ship whith the Wind Djinn blowing the sales, and the Fire Djinn (Ifrit, I guess) moving to attack was very cool.
I still don't understand why they won't do Araby - some people tried to blame it on us SJW types, but I doubt thats the issue considering they are rolling out Cathay (as well as things like the aforementioned Lizardmen).
Overread wrote: I don't know where people are going with the names - so I'm just going to go read Asterix until the next big release of new info
Someone brought up that the Lizardmen names are almost all joke names and GW being british company, and british not being known for sensitivity or tact, might choose to go with the same naming convention for the chinese-inspired faction. I personally don't think it'll be the case, but the mere suggestion riled up the people that think anyone who doesn't find blackface or verbal equivalent funny is basically a marxist out to murder Western Civilization.
For people who love to go "facts not feelings" their feelings bruise surprisingly quickly.
> and british not being known for sensitivity or tact
Excuse you? Sweeping generalisations much?
Hey, I'm just telling how it is, snowflake. Don't get triggered, need some safe space to stare at all the stolen goods in the British Loot Museum?
It's hilarious how easy their fee-fees get hurt, but I guess they just can't take a joke these days. Don't forget to write the mods to cancel me. Literal 1984!
You are coming across as more of an donkey-cave rather than someone who is using turnabout to make a point. Not sure what your intent is really and it might be something lost in translation, but I think you need to be a bit clearer in it as its pretty obvious that its not being communicated clearly enough for anyone to get it.
kurhanik wrote:I hate to ruin the fun by explaining the joke, but it seems nobody has gotten it. Cronch here is just using some of the exact same arguments and logic leaps that people earlier in the thread have used to defend culturally insensitive naming schemes / scoff at fears of future culturally insensitive naming schemes. Its actually kind of amusing how some of the exact same people who were yelling that "tic tac toe" and "something wrong" are the peak of class and humor immediately had a visceral reaction to the exact same line of logic.
Agreed - though I think Cronch could work on his delivery a bit as its not entirely obvious - careful and selective use of emojis certainly go a long way here.
Goose LeChance wrote: You guys are so strange, I don't think your making the points you think you are.
It seems a lot of Brits enjoy hating on themselves. It's really odd, but keep up the good work.
As a Canadian I think my fellow Canadians are quite awesome and we're lucky to live in such a Country
I dunno, they seem to think we're getting offended on other's people's behalf when we notice their inconsistencies. I don't personally care if they think Brits are insensitive, I've already personally said I that I think that most East Asian countries can be pretty racist, so I can believe Sgt_Smudge as a Brit if he thinks Brits can be pretty insensitive, though in his case I think he's more on the sensitive side given his past post history. Just funny that they're willing to bring themselves down to the level they claim to be above to "make a point" (notice how its towards a target that's in vogue/popular to hate right now, a 1st world, mostly white country...hmmmmm, it'd like to see Cronch make the same statement towards a place like Haiiti or Pakistan). Also, likewise, I actually appreciate that I get to live in Canada and have fellow Canadians like you too in this thread. Hating on your own country as some form of self-flagellation is unfortunately becoming quite common in the Western sphere, I think its a general reflection of how people really don't know what they have until they lose it.
same energy - put a tophat and a monocle on the zeppelin for good measure.
Given how, uh, political wargaming can get (as seen in this very thread) I don't think GW will be touching Araby of all places with a ten-foot-pole in the foreseeable future.
OTOH, maybe the upcoming Dune movies will be both a smash hit and not drown in their own controversy somehow, which in turn will lead to more "Middle East"-inspired fantasy settings.
Mr_Rose wrote: Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, or something a bit more durable to tie-up units.
Really the more I think about how they've realized them the more disappointing it gets. Their obviously inspired by the real Terracotta army, so I always imaged them as that but turned into mechanical-powered automatons, slowly shuffling towards the enemy with unnatural robotic movement and the sounds of clockwork. I feel like that would have been a far more interesting choice, giving both a sort of uncanny valley feel to the unit itself, and showing the technological prowess of the most powerful human empire in the WHF setting. Instead we got...a glowing stone golem that just acts like an ordinary human but big? It doesn't seem to really do anything worthwhile with the idea, it being big, human-shaped and terracotta are all somewhat irrelevant if it's just created and powered by magic.
Make them the souls of criminals magically bound to serve as automata until they die in battle. They have lost their will, but feel all pain as the living do including the ever pressing hunger and thirst that their new terracota bodies are incapable of satiating. Only in death will they atone for their sins against the Divine law of the Dragon Emperor and lay at peace alongside their ancestors.
I like this a lot. You could even have "redeemed" terracotta warriors... where they have earned their souls back, and now have unlocked/achieved something more as a result. Have the larger ones be the souls of the worst offenders...
Esmer wrote: Given how, uh, political wargaming can get (as seen in this very thread) I don't think GW will be touching Araby of all places with a ten-foot-pole in the foreseeable future.
OTOH, maybe the upcoming Dune movies will be both a smash hit and not drown in their own controversy somehow, which in turn will lead to more "Middle East"-inspired fantasy settings.
If that were true they wouldn't have touched China either, with all the yellow peril politics revolving around China in the US and western europe, etc. let alone the at times inconsistent and arbitrary approach the Chinese government takes towards censorship of media.
Esmer wrote: Given how, uh, political wargaming can get (as seen in this very thread) I don't think GW will be touching Araby of all places with a ten-foot-pole in the foreseeable future.
OTOH, maybe the upcoming Dune movies will be both a smash hit and not drown in their own controversy somehow, which in turn will lead to more "Middle East"-inspired fantasy settings.
If that were true they wouldn't have touched China either, with all the yellow peril politics revolving around China in the US and western europe, etc. let alone the at times inconsistent and arbitrary approach the Chinese government takes towards censorship of media.
Nah, Islam and the Middle East continue to be far touchier topics, in Western Europe at least. Most people - both of the right-wing and the liberal variety - tend to be pretty indifferent about China in countries like Greece or Germany.
Maybe it's different in the US.
It really wouldn't be difficult to add Araby without offending reasonable people (to nip the 'anybody can be offended by anything' thing right in the bud).
They'd just have to resist the temptation to like, name a character nothing but the phlegmatic sounds that feature in some middle eastern languages, actual slurs, or weird English puns using middle-east-like-phonetics.
For bonus points they could also try to not play up the "middle eastern countries are full of slaves!" aspect a lot of people use.
No, you're right. Given the manufactured outrage/controversy over old Lizardmen names, I had the same thought about Araby. They aren't going to want to go anywhere near that.
Isn't Araby just Arabian Nights but toy soldiers? Djins (Djin? Are they like sheep and deer?) and the dudes from the Mummy who try to stop people from doing stupid things like looting tombs. Heroes like Not-Sinbad? I've read the Araby Warhammer Wiki page and now I really want to see camel-mounted jezzails.
Mr_Rose wrote: Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, or something a bit more durable to tie-up units.
Really the more I think about how they've realized them the more disappointing it gets. Their obviously inspired by the real Terracotta army, so I always imaged them as that but turned into mechanical-powered automatons, slowly shuffling towards the enemy with unnatural robotic movement and the sounds of clockwork. I feel like that would have been a far more interesting choice, giving both a sort of uncanny valley feel to the unit itself, and showing the technological prowess of the most powerful human empire in the WHF setting. Instead we got...a glowing stone golem that just acts like an ordinary human but big? It doesn't seem to really do anything worthwhile with the idea, it being big, human-shaped and terracotta are all somewhat irrelevant if it's just created and powered by magic.
Make them the souls of criminals magically bound to serve as automata until they die in battle. They have lost their will, but feel all pain as the living do including the ever pressing hunger and thirst that their new terracota bodies are incapable of satiating. Only in death will they atone for their sins against the Divine law of the Dragon Emperor and lay at peace alongside their ancestors.
I like this a lot. You could even have "redeemed" terracotta warriors... where they have earned their souls back, and now have unlocked/achieved something more as a result. Have the larger ones be the souls of the worst offenders...
Oh, yes, that would be great. Crank that grimdark right up. Then you can even have the weirdo wizard special character who statue’d himself for immortality and now regrets his (un)life choices but is also super good at battlefield repairs for the regular clay dudes.
Gert wrote:Djins (Djin? Are they like sheep and deer?)
Mr_Rose wrote: Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, or something a bit more durable to tie-up units.
Really the more I think about how they've realized them the more disappointing it gets. Their obviously inspired by the real Terracotta army, so I always imaged them as that but turned into mechanical-powered automatons, slowly shuffling towards the enemy with unnatural robotic movement and the sounds of clockwork. I feel like that would have been a far more interesting choice, giving both a sort of uncanny valley feel to the unit itself, and showing the technological prowess of the most powerful human empire in the WHF setting. Instead we got...a glowing stone golem that just acts like an ordinary human but big? It doesn't seem to really do anything worthwhile with the idea, it being big, human-shaped and terracotta are all somewhat irrelevant if it's just created and powered by magic.
Make them the souls of criminals magically bound to serve as automata until they die in battle. They have lost their will, but feel all pain as the living do including the ever pressing hunger and thirst that their new terracota bodies are incapable of satiating. Only in death will they atone for their sins against the Divine law of the Dragon Emperor and lay at peace alongside their ancestors.
I like this a lot. You could even have "redeemed" terracotta warriors... where they have earned their souls back, and now have unlocked/achieved something more as a result. Have the larger ones be the souls of the worst offenders...
Oh, yes, that would be great. Crank that grimdark right up. Then you can even have the weirdo wizard special character who statue’d himself for immortality and now regrets his (un)life choices but is also super good at battlefield repairs for the regular clay dudes.
Yeah dogg, this is what its all about. You can do high fantasy grimdark, it's not about aesthetics necessarily. It's about tone and theme. Warhammer fantasy was always about throwing sword & sorcery, historical nastiness, and high fantasy into a blender.
In western countries I doubt too many people out side of politicians and a few select large companies with large Chinese deals care if asians get offended. Politicians might be scared to call Taiwan a country, your average citizens aren’t.
And the reason people are scared to offend Islam isn’t because they’re scared of offending politically correct westerners, they’re scared of offending extremist muslims who have a tendency to get a bit explosive when offended.
eh. Don't name any Arabyan characters Muhammad or refer to anyone as "The Prophet" and you'll be fine.
Aladdin, Prince of Persia, Assassins Creed, the Mummy series, Civ series, etc. are all similarly Middle East/Islam adjacent and to my knowledge haven't really caused a stir, at least not one thats meaningful.
In any case, did anyone try telling the islamic extremists that its a choice to be offended?
Chinese pop culture is full of pun names and other goofiness, anyway, but it's done in a way that entertains Chinese people. I'm sure it would be quite easy to hire someone to do that.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So.
What was the expected release date of The Old World? Late 2022?
We had 40k last year for their big summer release, AOS this year, Tow 22?
Sounds right to me. Puts all three on separate three year edition cycles.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So.
What was the expected release date of The Old World? Late 2022?
We had 40k last year for their big summer release, AOS this year, Tow 22?
The Future. Seriously though, I wouldn't expect it any time soon. It was announced and specifically said to be in essentially pre-pre-Alpha stage. The designs we've seen are just because the ToW team and TW: WH3 team are working closely on model design.
Gregor Samsa wrote: I am begging people in this thread to stop posting and please for the love of god go read “Orientalism” by Edward Said.
Orientalism is frankly speaking, too rigorous and too tricky a work for most people to parse and not just because Said was very much an academic writing to academics. The amount of supplemental reading necessary both to appreciate Said properly, strengths and weaknesses, and contextualize his propositions with respect to the actual fields he's criticizing practically takes a post-graduate education. Which isn't meant to sound like I'm talking down to people as much as it reads, but telling people to read Edward Said is a lot a quantum physicist telling people to just go read a book about topographical defects. They're not going to understand it at best, and at worst they'll walk away thinking something stupid like 'Said is just 400 pages of West bad.'
Just read The Mightier Pen? Edward Said and the Double Standards of Inside-out Colonialism: a review of Culture and Imperialism, by Edward Said by Ernest Gellner. It's on JSTOR if anyone has access to a university or public library. Boils the whole thing down into a bite size two page book review and encapsulates Orientalism, strengths, weakness, positive after-effects, and negative consequences. Said's work was so specific to a time that I don't think it's even useful to non-academics anymore. It's too dense and purposefully overwrought because literary critics love making things more complicated than they need to be and they used to love it even more than they do now.
Gregor Samsa wrote: I am begging people in this thread to stop posting and please for the love of god go read “Orientalism” by Edward Said.
Orientalism is frankly speaking, too rigorous and too tricky a work for most people to parse and not just because Said was very much an academic writing to academics. The amount of supplemental reading necessary both to appreciate Said properly, strengths and weaknesses, and contextualize his propositions with respect to the actual fields he's criticizing practically takes a post-graduate education. Which isn't meant to sound like I'm talking down to people as much as it reads, but telling people to read Edward Said is a lot a quantum physicist telling people to just go read a book about topographical defects. They're not going to understand it at best, and at worst they'll walk away thinking something stupid like 'Said is just 400 pages of West bad.'
Just read The Mightier Pen? Edward Said and the Double Standards of Inside-out Colonialism: a review of Culture and Imperialism, by Edward Said by Ernest Gellner. It's on JSTOR if anyone has access to a university or public library. Boils the whole thing down into a bite size two page book review and encapsulates Orientalism, strengths, weakness, positive after-effects, and negative consequences. Said's work was so specific to a time that I don't think it's even useful to non-academics anymore. It's too dense and purposefully overwrought because literary critics love making things more complicated than they need to be and they used to love it even more than they do now.
That s a really good point. A lot of the book is scholarly dispute among some of his peers and predecessors. Not too interesting in the 21st century
hotsauceman1 wrote:So.
What was the expected release date of The Old World? Late 2022?
We had 40k last year for their big summer release, AOS this year, Tow 22?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:I personally don't think Old World is coming out until at least 2023.
it really depends on what GW is planning on the long term
doing it like HH as a niche side project, I guess 2023/24 as it neither gets the manpower nor the factory slots (or priority on such) to make the necessary stuff for a release
replacing LotR as the 3rd main game and the next slot is 2022 and no matter if they manage to finish the stuff or make what the desiger has planned, it will be released on date
worst case would be just the current Empire models with new decals or an upgrade frame for different provinces and a simple rules booklet, with full new rules, models and factions coming later (as we see now, not a big problem for GW too have months between a new Edition and the first books)
GW said this in Nov 2019: "You get the idea – this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more. Definitely not soon." So late 2022 at the earliest but probably 2023.
Like Kodos, I'm wondering what kind of support GW is planning to give TOW. They already have hundreds of products for sale for AOS that was originally released for WHFB. I find it unlikely that GW isn't planning to re-release these in some way. (Or would that actually be a re-re-release? )
New releases is obviously coming too but are they really going to have two major fantasy games going at once? Two fantasy games that would actually be sharing the majority of the product line.
this is a tricky one anyway as having 3 games as main product you want them to be different enough for people going for all 3.
if they are too similar people are playing the one they like more
Now having a Fantasy Mass Skirmish, a SciFi Mass Skirmish and a Fantasy Skirmish
replacing the Fantasy Skirmish with R&F to have 3 mass battle games makes sense
but than this is GW, they are very often avoiding the obvious
hotsauceman1 wrote:So.
What was the expected release date of The Old World? Late 2022?
We had 40k last year for their big summer release, AOS this year, Tow 22?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:I personally don't think Old World is coming out until at least 2023.
it really depends on what GW is planning on the long term
doing it like HH as a niche side project, I guess 2023/24 as it neither gets the manpower nor the factory slots (or priority on such) to make the necessary stuff for a release
replacing LotR as the 3rd main game and the next slot is 2022 and no matter if they manage to finish the stuff or make what the desiger has planned, it will be released on date
worst case would be just the current Empire models with new decals or an upgrade frame for different provinces and a simple rules booklet, with full new rules, models and factions coming later (as we see now, not a big problem for GW too have months between a new Edition and the first books)
I'm going to guess it'll have a Ravening Hordes style book of lists, and if I have to deal with Empire models magically becoming available again AND a new R&F game that could potentially be as good as 6th I can't view that as a bad thing.
Of course there will be a Compedium/Index/Hordes book, there is no doubt about it
Question is, are we going to see Campaign Boxes/Books released, like Empire Civil War, Bretonia VS Orcs, Chaos VS Kislev, with the specific army lists in those books
Or are we seeing classic Army books return (or both, with campaign books first, army books later)
and, are the rules rushed to get a specific release slot (like a minor changed 8th) and being refreshed later to make the proper game or do they wait to make something good in the first place
Like if it is released in Sommer 2022, the rules/books need to be send to the printer in the next 2 months to make it in time
kodos wrote: and, are the rules rushed to get a specific release slot (like a minor changed 8th) and being refreshed later to make the proper game or do they wait to make something good in the first place
I absolutely adore this inference, and find it quite factual as well.
kodos wrote: this is a tricky one anyway as having 3 games as main product you want them to be different enough for people going for all 3.
if they are too similar people are playing the one they like more
Now having a Fantasy Mass Skirmish, a SciFi Mass Skirmish and a Fantasy Skirmish
replacing the Fantasy Skirmish with R&F to have 3 mass battle games makes sense
but than this is GW, they are very often avoiding the obvious
My thoughts exactly. How are GW going to keep AOS and TOW distinct and separate from one another?
The models? Are they going for a new different style with the TOW-models?
The basing? Will squares vs rounds be enough to set the games apart? Even if the same models are on the bases?
The rules? Are going to be different. GWs strenght is in the models though.
The background? Is technically the same yet different. Different enough to draw in two crowds?
Mr_Rose wrote: Hmm. Not wholly sold on the concept of loads of little terracotta dudes. Like, what do you do with the regular infantry then?
Unless they are like Eldar Wraithguard and both super tough and super expensive.
Human-sized clockwork-powered Terracotta automations as a cheap but numerous horde unit with a function similar to zombies, or something a bit more durable to tie-up units.
Really the more I think about how they've realized them the more disappointing it gets. Their obviously inspired by the real Terracotta army, so I always imaged them as that but turned into mechanical-powered automatons, slowly shuffling towards the enemy with unnatural robotic movement and the sounds of clockwork. I feel like that would have been a far more interesting choice, giving both a sort of uncanny valley feel to the unit itself, and showing the technological prowess of the most powerful human empire in the WHF setting. Instead we got...a glowing stone golem that just acts like an ordinary human but big? It doesn't seem to really do anything worthwhile with the idea, it being big, human-shaped and terracotta are all somewhat irrelevant if it's just created and powered by magic.
Make them the souls of criminals magically bound to serve as automata until they die in battle. They have lost their will, but feel all pain as the living do including the ever pressing hunger and thirst that their new terracota bodies are incapable of satiating. Only in death will they atone for their sins against the Divine law of the Dragon Emperor and lay at peace alongside their ancestors.
I like this a lot. You could even have "redeemed" terracotta warriors... where they have earned their souls back, and now have unlocked/achieved something more as a result. Have the larger ones be the souls of the worst offenders...
Oh, yes, that would be great. Crank that grimdark right up. Then you can even have the weirdo wizard special character who statue’d himself for immortality and now regrets his (un)life choices but is also super good at battlefield repairs for the regular clay dudes.
Eh, I don't like it personally. Putting what is no doubt a huge amount of craftsmanship into a magical, mechanical, humanoid automaton capable of both combat and housing souls, then the additional effort of transferring those souls, and all for... punishing criminals? That's a level of obsessive inefficiency I'd expect from 40k's Imperium but in WHFB it just seems grimderp to me. The original fluff snippet where they are clay constructs and can physically fuse with fortifications to repair gaps with their own bodies is something I like a lot better. It is all subjective though, different tastes and such.
Gert wrote:Djins (Djin? Are they like sheep and deer?)
Djinni I believe. Could be wrong.
Djinni is singular, djinn is plural (thank you Johnathan Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy ).
Not really. Djinn is just one of the transliterations of the arab jinn. It's a general term, meant to be plural, but it can be used to a specific one, but the (most usual) actual singular would be yānn. Djinni is the nonsense you get when you add roman suffixes to things without actually thinking about it.
The actual term in english, of course, would be genie, which itself comes from the french.
Gert wrote:Djins (Djin? Are they like sheep and deer?)
Djinni I believe. Could be wrong.
Djinni is singular, djinn is plural (thank you Johnathan Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy ).
Not really. Djinn is just one of the transliterations of the arab jinn. It's a general term, meant to be plural, but it can be used to a specific one, but the (most usual) actual singular would be yānn. Djinni is the nonsense you get when you add roman suffixes to things without actually thinking about it.
The actual term in english, of course, would be genie, which itself comes from the french.
Gert wrote:Djins (Djin? Are they like sheep and deer?)
Djinni I believe. Could be wrong.
Djinni is singular, djinn is plural (thank you Johnathan Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy ).
Not really. Djinn is just one of the transliterations of the arab jinn. It's a general term, meant to be plural, but it can be used to a specific one, but the (most usual) actual singular would be yānn. Djinni is the nonsense you get when you add roman suffixes to things without actually thinking about it.
The actual term in english, of course, would be genie, which itself comes from the french.
Jinn is an Arabic collective noun deriving from the Semitic root jnn (Arabic: جَنّ / جُنّ, jann), whose primary meaning is 'to hide' or 'to adapt'. Some authors interpret the word to mean, literally, 'beings that are concealed from the senses'.[5] Cognates include the Arabic majnūn (مَجْنُون, 'possessed' or, generally, 'insane'), jannah (جَنَّة, 'garden', 'eden' or 'heaven'), and janīn (جَنِين, 'embryo').[6] Jinn is properly treated as a plural (however in Classical Arabic, may also appear as jānn, جَانّ), with the singular being jinnī (جِنِّيّ).
Gert wrote:Djins (Djin? Are they like sheep and deer?)
Djinni I believe. Could be wrong.
Djinni is singular, djinn is plural (thank you Johnathan Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy ).
Not really. Djinn is just one of the transliterations of the arab jinn. It's a general term, meant to be plural, but it can be used to a specific one, but the (most usual) actual singular would be yānn. Djinni is the nonsense you get when you add roman suffixes to things without actually thinking about it.
The actual term in english, of course, would be genie, which itself comes from the french.
Jinn is an Arabic collective noun deriving from the Semitic root jnn (Arabic: جَنّ / جُنّ, jann), whose primary meaning is 'to hide' or 'to adapt'. Some authors interpret the word to mean, literally, 'beings that are concealed from the senses'.[5] Cognates include the Arabic majnūn (مَجْنُون, 'possessed' or, generally, 'insane'), jannah (جَنَّة, 'garden', 'eden' or 'heaven'), and janīn (جَنِين, 'embryo').[6] Jinn is properly treated as a plural (however in Classical Arabic, may also appear as jānn, جَانّ), with the singular being jinnī (جِنِّيّ).
[b] sometimes Arabs use Jānn (Arabic: جان) term for singular, jānn also referred to jinn world – another plural, snakes / serpents and another type of jinn
Seeing as all the other loan words in english that I've seen with the "ii"added were made up from roman suffixes, I'd still think that the use of "djinni" in english comes from that.
That said, I'd also say there's a perfectly cromulent word there, in genie, that could be better used.
I haven't read the trilogy you mention, though, so maybe there's any hint to the etymology used there?
More lore on Cathay, folding the Monkey King back in - along with a Warhammer-esque version of The Three Kingdoms, also Tzeentchian cults within the nation. I'm liking it so far with the exception that there's not much 'grimdark' shining through, Cathay seems a little too shiny, powerful and happy. It's probably just a side effect of the limited information so far - but I'd like it if they dropped some hints in of the Dragon Emperor abusing his position, not caring so much about the humans, some decay in the nation or something like that. At the moment, it's all a bit too positive and harmonious.
When Will people remember that grimdark IS something out of 40k, not fantasy.
Fantasy has had darker and lighter periods, but It has never been grimdark, as in, things are bad because they are bad.
Thats why you dont have 1000 psykers sacrificed a day, why you have alliances between races, LOVE stories, etc.
Tell me a single relevant canonic couple in 40k.
As someone thats more fan of fantasy than 40k and aos IS sad to see how many people tries to make of fantasy what 40k IS.
I mean, one of the more interesting bits about Chaos in fantasy VS 40k is that Many people venerate those gods in a more orgánic way like the norse without being all crazy cultist but functional societys with a different pantheon.
How IS cathay gonna be Happy. It Will be worse than medieval china, and no medieval country was a Happy place
Amberely and Cain plus others in the Cain novels
Many and varied in the Gaunts Ghosts books - where there are family groups.
Hell even the navigator and favoured slave in the ADB Night Lords novels
Loads of them....
IT has lighter periods and regions, but its also got a lot of grim-dark to it. It's just not as heavily popularised or focused on as it is for 40K and even within 40K its honestly focused a LOT more on by the fans than they sometimes realise. Mostly its a scale thing, for Old World it might be one city that's plagued with Skaven and thus in a dark situation; whilst for 40K its a whole Hive City that's got more people than a whole planet - billions nestled within it in a super-epic scale of grim dark. Even if the next world over is a green paradise.
I also think the variety of stories is in part greatly because stories about the Old World had no racial focus. Yes the good side did somewhat out number the bad and some races got more stories than others; but in general there was no "golden boy" faction.
For 40K a vast amount of the stories focus on one side - the Imperial and often either grunt warriors on the front line or Marines - again on the front lines. So the nature of the stories is often focused around that. It is a weakness in 40K lore in terms of diversity. Love certainly does happen, its just not focused on.
But yeah the Old World had a lot of Grim Dark, its just subtle at times or limited in where it impacts. Also lets not forget even without Grim Dark its still a world at war. Cathay is joining into a massive war and that means battles and darkness and evil seeping its way around when you deal with Chaos.
More lore on Cathay, folding the Monkey King back in - along with a Warhammer-esque version of The Three Kingdoms, also Tzeentchian cults within the nation. I'm liking it so far with the exception that there's not much 'grimdark' shining through, Cathay seems a little too shiny, powerful and happy. It's probably just a side effect of the limited information so far - but I'd like it if they dropped some hints in of the Dragon Emperor abusing his position, not caring so much about the humans, some decay in the nation or something like that. At the moment, it's all a bit too positive and harmonious.
And it's gonna stay that way if they want the CCP to approve it
Has already seeped in, according to the lore, since Tzeentch has cults within Cathay. Anyway, we'll see what both CA and GW do with it.
On another note, it occurs to me that the introduction of Cathay in this fashion might also be used as a way of moving them into AoS. We'll get info on the faction via Total War, and this could be used as a springboard to provide background and explain a dragon-god, or something similar, that joins the Order faction with a new set of Cathay-themed followers.
More lore on Cathay, folding the Monkey King back in - along with a Warhammer-esque version of The Three Kingdoms, also Tzeentchian cults within the nation. I'm liking it so far with the exception that there's not much 'grimdark' shining through, Cathay seems a little too shiny, powerful and happy. It's probably just a side effect of the limited information so far - but I'd like it if they dropped some hints in of the Dragon Emperor abusing his position, not caring so much about the humans, some decay in the nation or something like that. At the moment, it's all a bit too positive and harmonious.
And it's gonna stay that way if they want the CCP to approve it
Compare it to the High Elves - seems about the same? Except they have Dark Elves attacking their near impregnable border fortresses and Cults of Slaanesh infiltrating rather than Tzeentch.
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Eumerin wrote: Has already seeped in, according to the lore, since Tzeentch has cults within Cathay. Anyway, we'll see what both CA and GW do with it.
On another note, it occurs to me that the introduction of Cathay in this fashion might also be used as a way of moving them into AoS. We'll get info on the faction via Total War, and this could be used as a springboard to provide background and explain a dragon-god, or something similar, that joins the Order faction with a new set of Cathay-themed followers.
Maybe Dracothion is the Dragon Emperor ?
Tzeentch may well be affecting Miao's brother whose flame in his hand looks a lot like a symbol of Tzeentch ?
So the Terracotta Sentinels are what they decided the "Terracotta Automatons" the old lore mentioned are...
Such a let down that they turned out to just be giant stone golems that act like normal humans. Mechnical steam or clockwork powered human-sized automatons that evoke the real-world terracotta army would have been so much more interesting.
Galas wrote: When Will people remember that grimdark IS something out of 40k, not fantasy.
Fantasy has had darker and lighter periods, but It has never been grimdark, as in, things are bad because they are bad.
It's been aesthetically and content wise very grimdark since at least 6e - if not to 40k's extremes. Even though it's fluctuated over time (4/5e technicolour madness) it's always been there. Look at 1e WHFRPG for instance, that's more grim dark than a lot of modern content. Look at Mordheim, there's stuff in that rulebook which exceeds anything in 40k. Scratch below the surface of the most 'good' factions and they're not exactly nice - look at the High Elves and Bretonnians.
As for canonic couples in 40k, there's absolutely dozens of them in BL books.
Mentlegen324 wrote: So the Terracotta Sentinels are what they decided the "Terracotta Automatons" the old lore mentioned are...
Such a let down that they turned out to just be giant stone golems that act like normal humans. Mechnical steam or clockwork powered human-sized automatons that evoke the real-world terracotta army would have been so much more interesting.
I completely disagree. Changing the terra-cotta Warriors into overdone steampunk garbage would be like changing the background for undead and Tomb Kings so that all
Mummies are actually robots. If you don’t like the flavor of a faction, don’t buy the faction instead of dropping in a dollop of your preference that doesn’t belong. You don’t go to a party and say “I don’t like cake. I like hot wings” and add Buffalo hot sauce to the birthday cake.
Mentlegen324 wrote: So the Terracotta Sentinels are what they decided the "Terracotta Automatons" the old lore mentioned are...
Such a let down that they turned out to just be giant stone golems that act like normal humans. Mechnical steam or clockwork powered human-sized automatons that evoke the real-world terracotta army would have been so much more interesting.
I completely disagree. Changing the terra-cotta Warriors into overdone steampunk garbage would be like changing the background for undead and Tomb Kings so that all
Mummies are actually robots. If you don’t like the flavor of a faction, don’t buy the faction instead of dropping in a dollop of your preference that doesn’t belong. You don’t go to a party and say “I don’t like cake. I like hot wings” and add Buffalo hot sauce to the birthday cake.
It's fine to disagree, but the way you've worded all that comes across as quite obtuse.It's not in the slightest bit like changing the Undead or Tomb Kings, because Cathay has only just been turned into a full faction - the line of lore the Terracotta Sentinels are based on is worded as such in the WHFB wiki:
"Hordes of Chaos Warriors battle legions of terracotta automatons attempting to shore up the Great Wall with their own clay bodies"
Before now, what exactly that line referred to was not established in the lore. My interpretation of this line before now, was of a legion of soldiers based on the real-world Terracotta Army but capable of moving and fighting. Cathay being the most powerful/largest human Empire in the setting suggested they'd have far more fantastical contraptions than the Old World Empire does, so considering that and the lines about there being "legions" implying there were a large number of them around combined with how they were "attempting" to shore up the wall by piling onto it both suggesting they were relatively small, and the usual sort of definition of "automaton" involving mechanical or technological powered, all to me made me think of something along the lines of them being elegant yet slightly uncanny-valley looking clockwork-powered versions of the real-world terracotta army. Similar to classic historical automatons but with a bit more of a fanatical element to them to turn them into capable warriors.
An Army of these capable of moving and fighting on their own:
Spoiler:
There's even a few fan concepts of them for Cathay as mechanical automatons (albeit steam powered) like was implied originally https://i.redd.it/ssc7c5hpi7331.jpg
The idea of Cathay being advanced enough technologically to create an ornate fantasy robot army powered by ticking clockwork as they shuffled towards the enemy in unison was one that I'd have found far more unique and interesting than huge stone golems that behave like big humans, because how they are now isn't what comes to mind when reading that description of them from before. Nothing I said implied I want them to change what Cathay is overall or its theming and you saying basically "The factions not meant for you. so get out" just because I'm slightly disappointed that a single unit isn't quite how I imagined they'd be before that faction was even fully expanded comes across as pretty rude.
The giant terracota Golem are cool but AN army of smaller autómata would also look cool. No need for unproper steampunk,just Clay golems with souls whiting moving them. Be them old soldiers, prisioners, criminals, etc....
I think you’re missing the point. Like undead and mummies, the trope of animated terra-cotta Warriors already existed. What you’re suggesting would be like GW deciding to add a gnome faction, but then declare the gnomes are actually an albino tribe of goblins. Gnomes may not exist in GW canon yet, but the audience already has a conception of what they are and how they should work. It’s why all of the classic races work as they are supposed to instead of in some “fresh” way, where elves are short lived, dwarves are amphibians and orcs are carved from wood.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think you’re missing the point. Like undead and mummies, the trope of animated terra-cotta Warriors already existed. What you’re suggesting would be like GW deciding to add a gnome faction, but then declare the gnomes are actually an albino tribe of goblins. Gnomes may not exist in GW canon yet, but the audience already has a conception of what they are and how they should work. It’s why all of the classic races work as they are supposed to instead of in some “fresh” way, where elves are short lived, dwarves are amphibians and orcs are carved from wood.
I agree and disagree...
It depends on whether in your mind a terracotta warrior has a baseline starting point in fantasy... in reality its just a statue... but in fantasy does it have to be an animated statue housing a soul, or an animated magical statue, or could it be clockwork and have the same visual impact as a magical statue?
I dont mind magical animated statues... or soul encases statues... but I think the closkwork statues could have been cool.
Edit: Since I didnt really make a point... an albino goblin gnome would visually be very different from a traditional gnome. But a clockwork terracotta soldier would not necessarily be that different visually.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think you’re missing the point. Like undead and mummies, the trope of animated terra-cotta Warriors already existed. What you’re suggesting would be like GW deciding to add a gnome faction, but then declare the gnomes are actually an albino tribe of goblins. Gnomes may not exist in GW canon yet, but the audience already has a conception of what they are and how they should work. It’s why all of the classic races work as they are supposed to instead of in some “fresh” way, where elves are short lived, dwarves are amphibians and orcs are carved from wood.
So when it comes to:
a unit clearly inspired by the real Terracotta army
that is said to be "legion" in terms of number
that struggles to shore up a giant wall
is in a setting that has mechanical creations powered by both steam and clockwork (there's a clockwork thundertusk and the Empire has a clockwork horse)
Is part of the most powerful and presumably technologically advanced human empire in the setting
That when the word "Automaton" was used to describe such a unit, that expecting said unit be human-sized mechanical automatons would have been subverting expectations and equivalent to doing something as wild and wacky with the idea as completely flipping the usual characteristics of fantasy races and that instead giant magic golems should have been expected? I find that utterly absurd.
Cathay has plenty of magic and magic stone golems are obviously something that appears in fantasy occasionally, but those are not synonymous with or the intended default of the idea of "terracotta automaton" as described in the original context. They're two mutually exclusive ideas.
Both types were a possibility, but don't make out that the idea of them being mechanical automatons is an inherently "Wrong" idea when given the very brief description we had.
streetsamurai wrote: I must say that i really like the idea of the terracotta warriors being chaff. Would have made the faction more original imo
Terracotta giants are by far the most common interpretation of fantasy terracotta warriors...
Cathay is pretty wild as an army, Dragon/human leaders, flying balloon junk warmachines and terracotta giants - this is a pretty unusual army across all manner of settings.
Adding some clay zombies would have been different, but hardly been the one thing to make them stand out. Especially when you have a peasant levy already.
Why would you go to all the trouble of creating a clockwork automaton, which is going to require metal "innards" for the springs, and then place all of it inside a clay shell?
Eumerin wrote: Why would you go to all the trouble of creating a clockwork automaton, which is going to require metal "innards" for the springs, and then place all of it inside a clay shell?
Perhaps because you can enhance/enchant the clay to be a bit more durable?
Then its a question of production and time. Perhaps they could make them of metal but they don't have the metal resources to achieve that; or perhaps metal takes longer to produce so they'd never have time to make as many. Or who knows perhaps they don't have enough people who are trained in metal working and enough forges to make them out of metal en-mass so they make them out of clay instead. It could even be that the clay warriors are or were seen to be, easier to fix and upkeep between battles.
It could even just be the cost. That the armed forces need X number but can't justify nor raise the money needed for metal, so they use a cheaper material that works just as well.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think you’re missing the point. Like undead and mummies, the trope of animated terra-cotta Warriors already existed. What you’re suggesting would be like GW deciding to add a gnome faction, but then declare the gnomes are actually an albino tribe of goblins. Gnomes may not exist in GW canon yet, but the audience already has a conception of what they are and how they should work. It’s why all of the classic races work as they are supposed to instead of in some “fresh” way, where elves are short lived, dwarves are amphibians and orcs are carved from wood.
I agree and disagree...
It depends on whether in your mind a terracotta warrior has a baseline starting point in fantasy... in reality its just a statue... but in fantasy does it have to be an animated statue housing a soul, or an animated magical statue, or could it be clockwork and have the same visual impact as a magical statue?
I dont mind magical animated statues... or soul encases statues... but I think the closkwork statues could have been cool.
Edit: Since I didnt really make a point... an albino goblin gnome would visually be very different from a traditional gnome. But a clockwork terracotta soldier would not necessarily be that different visually.
Making them clockwork would force them to have joints, mechanisms, clockwork noises, possibly steam. It violates the nature of them, as they would be made of bronze and brass instead of terra cotta, and less ancient. Clockwork could work for other things—why not invent something new or take some fancy bronze/metal sculptures and make them clockwork? Throwing steampunk technology thousands of years into the past and changing the faction into a technologically stagnant shadow of whoever built those robots is a pretty poor solution. It may look cool, but it requires making the whole faction dumb or grimderp in order to work.
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Eumerin wrote: Why would you go to all the trouble of creating a clockwork automaton, which is going to require metal "innards" for the springs, and then place all of it inside a clay shell?
streetsamurai wrote: I must say that i really like the idea of the terracotta warriors being chaff. Would have made the faction more original imo
Terracotta giants are by far the most common interpretation of fantasy terracotta warriors...
Since when?
That was meant to be read as sarcastic, hoped the rest the post made that clear along with the...after that statement.
I can understand how you don't like the vibe, but that statement about this choice making them see generic seemed pretty ridiculous to me.
streetsamurai wrote: I must say that i really like the idea of the terracotta warriors being chaff. Would have made the faction more original imo
Terracotta giants are by far the most common interpretation of fantasy terracotta warriors...
Cathay is pretty wild as an army, Dragon/human leaders, flying balloon junk warmachines and terracotta giants - this is a pretty unusual army across all manner of settings.
Adding some clay zombies would have been different, but hardly been the one thing to make them stand out. Especially when you have a peasant levy already.
I don't know about the mechanical stuff but clay zombie/golems sounds way better than giant statues straight out of WoW.
Why everything that we don't like is now "straight out of WoW".
As someone that really likes wow, maybe even more than warhammer, is getting tiresome because it makes no sense.
Warhammer has literal bone giants. This is a clay giant. In the universe that has storm giants. Dragon-ogre giants. Giants. Gigantic Giants. Two headed giants.
And the ballons have like 0 technology to them. They are less fantasy than girocopters. They are just hot ballons. And guys with powder weaponry. You know. From china, the actuals inventors of gunpowder.
Two things loosely based in the same mythical concept share some common traits.
Groundbreaking discovering right here and there.
People here can only wish Cathay had a lore so deep and good as the Mogu and Pandaria, it would actually be much more darker than what GW is showing right now. Mogu are some of the darkerst aspects of wow lore.
More lore on Cathay, folding the Monkey King back in - along with a Warhammer-esque version of The Three Kingdoms, also Tzeentchian cults within the nation. I'm liking it so far with the exception that there's not much 'grimdark' shining through, Cathay seems a little too shiny, powerful and happy. It's probably just a side effect of the limited information so far - but I'd like it if they dropped some hints in of the Dragon Emperor abusing his position, not caring so much about the humans, some decay in the nation or something like that. At the moment, it's all a bit too positive and harmonious.
well, that killed my enthusiasm a bit. As some said, it look a bit too cartoony. Maybe its the colour used. And Pegassus rider :( I hate that concept. It looked bad in Bretonnia and it looks bad here. We will see if the rest can save it
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Is it a Pegasus or a longma? I haven’t seen the pictures yet, but a Pegasus seems a bit too western.
From the trailer, I thought they were Kirin with wings stuck on.
But... going from the one picture with one in the foreground, its kind of none of the above?
Its got kind of bat wings but with feathers, and is mostly horselike, but may have jade hide... or armor? It might be a construct, for all I can tell.
Mostly though, I think its just a reskin of the flying Dark Elf regiment of renown. And the background/mythical basis is 'yeah, well, whatever.'
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Is it a Pegasus or a longma? I haven’t seen the pictures yet, but a Pegasus seems a bit too western.
definitely not a western pegasus, but a similar creature (not too knowledgeable in chinese fantasy lore). Point being, I realy dont think its a good concept
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nothing says smaller terracotta warriors can't be added later. I mean, what we're getting at launch for TWWIII won't be the entire Cathay roster.
Eumerin wrote: Why would you go to all the trouble of creating a clockwork automaton, which is going to require metal "innards" for the springs, and then place all of it inside a clay shell?
Perhaps because you can enhance/enchant the clay to be a bit more durable?
And now you're playing mix and match with magic and technology. You've used technology to craft interior fiddly bits out of metal. But you're using magic to strengthen the outer clay so that it competes with metal. In theory, that's fine, save for one issue. The easiest part to make out of metal is the exterior of the golem, and if you build that out of metal then you don't need enchanted clay. What you're suggesting is to enchant a terracotta clockwork so that the exterior is as hard as steel, causing you to do twice the work for no additional benefit.
Also, Cathay is an ancient culture. Steam tech is cutting edge for the Empire and the Dwarves. Not giving Cathay steam tech ensures that their civilization has an older feel to it.
Making them clockwork would force them to have joints,
Good point. I hadn't thought of that. That's an additional bit of extra work for no additional benefit.
I don't know about the mechanical stuff but clay zombie/golems sounds way better than giant statues straight out of WoW.
This is the similar to what the *other* ancient (formerly) human culture has. The Tomb Kings have their own animated statuary. So it's not as if giant animated rock golems are a new thing to the setting. They're also a way to indicate that a given civilization has ancient roots that date back millenia.
Gregor Samsa wrote: I am begging people in this thread to stop posting and please for the love of god go read “Orientalism” by Edward Said.
Why would i read ~400 pages of "West Bad!" scribbled with crayons over and over?
Because that's not what it is? It's pretty damn fun read if you care about things like language or science or politics or art or philosophy and how people have thought about them at various time. I mean, it doesn't hand it to you on a plate, but as a piece of research alone it's really something else.
If what you got out of it was "west bad," you haven't read or didn't understand even the intro. It's such a cool slice of styles of thinking across any number of fields of culture.
I don't know about the mechanical stuff but clay zombie/golems sounds way better than giant statues straight out of WoW.
So it's not as if giant animated rock golems are a new thing to the setting. They're also a way to indicate that a given civilization has ancient roots that date back millenia.
Hopefully a complete redesign is in the works then
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Is it a Pegasus or a longma? I haven’t seen the pictures yet, but a Pegasus seems a bit too western.
From the trailer, I thought they were Kirin with wings stuck on.
But... going from the one picture with one in the foreground, its kind of none of the above?
Its got kind of bat wings but with feathers, and is mostly horselike, but may have jade hide... or armor? It might be a construct, for all I can tell.
Mostly though, I think its just a reskin of the flying Dark Elf regiment of renown. And the background/mythical basis is 'yeah, well, whatever.'
That pretty much sounds like a longma.
If they want to go more grimdark, there are also the Heavenly Horses who sweat blood. But those would just look like big horses.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Is it a Pegasus or a longma? I haven’t seen the pictures yet, but a Pegasus seems a bit too western.
definitely not a western pegasus, but a similar creature (not too knowledgeable in chinese fantasy lore). Point being, I realy dont think its a good concept
Why? Why not for Cathay or for Bretonnia? I don’t understand what makes flying horses a poor fit for either faction.
Eh, the more we progress into the 21st century the worse the IRL situation looks. I feel dialing back the grimdark is simply GW adapting to changes in what people want. The younger generations GW is trying to recruit don't appreciate a bleak outlook in a setting as much, because that's real life.
For my part I feel the peak grimdark period of Warhammer was just veering into silliness. I can't get immersed in the grimdark when my mind is stopping every five minutes going 'that's just stupid'. It was bordering comedy.
There's that, but also over the years the fanbase hyper focuses on the grim dark and forgets that there are, and always have been, moments of light within that darkness.
Also a lot of fans only read the battletomes/codex and rulebooks level of lore. Which focus mostly on the war aspects of the setting which means its all dark and grim because its war and battle. A lot of people don't read into the novels or stories which can flesh out huge chunks of the setting which aren't focused on war or battle or dark things.
It also doesn't help that certain editions toned up the grimdarkness of certain factions. 6th edition Brettonia tends to be one of the more commonly cited ones on how a faction can suddenly be changed with it's viewpoints.
It's always been tongue in cheek dark humor, so horrible and tragic it's ridiculous and comedic. That's what gives it that feel unique to warhammer and 40k.
Interesting. Border Princes are definitely one of those areas they neglected to much, but have the most potential for campaigns and things, since there isn't a lot of 'canon' to argue about and a lot more unfriendly neighbors and rivalries that make for a better wargame.
Voss wrote: Interesting. Border Princes are definitely one of those areas they neglected to much, but have the most potential for campaigns and things, since there isn't a lot of 'canon' to argue about and a lot more unfriendly neighbors and rivalries that make for a better game.
Agreed and since its changes so often even more freedom
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It also doesn't help that certain editions toned up the grimdarkness of certain factions. 6th edition Brettonia tends to be one of the more commonly cited ones on how a faction can suddenly be changed with it's viewpoints.
Well, that's the fault of Stillman's bland heroic army book. Before that, Bretonnia was even worse: full of decadent nobles, degenerated folk and extreme penury. Chaos worshippers everywhere of course and the cities were mostly slums. It was portrayed as a failed state drowning in it's own depravity. 6th edition army book was quite positive compared to this.
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Soooo. Border Princes. Well, I spot a Nehekarian tomb. And the Harkon emblem looks like the current ruler isn't that much alive (or he/she is a wine connoisseur). There's hope for some Undead stuff.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It also doesn't help that certain editions toned up the grimdarkness of certain factions. 6th edition Brettonia tends to be one of the more commonly cited ones on how a faction can suddenly be changed with it's viewpoints.
Well, that's the fault of Stillman's bland heroic army book. Before that, Bretonnia was even worse: full of decadent nobles, degenerated folk and extreme penury. Chaos worshippers everywhere of course and the cities were mostly slums. It was portrayed as a failed state drowning in it's own depravity. 6th edition army book was quite positive compared to this.
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Soooo. Border Princes. Well, I spot a Nehekarian tomb. And the Harkon emblem looks like the current ruler isn't that much alive (or he/she is a wine connoisseur). There's hope for some Undead stuff.
The difference between the 5th and 6th edition book is still a source of contention, especially when you factor in the many characters left behind from the edition change.
Just had a look at that article now. Fascinating look into the borderlands. I remember running a few narrative campaigns there throughout 6th edition. Honestly the Old World project is shaping up to be absolutely fantastic. I'm so glad that it's getting done. Can't wait to see what they add in next. Interesting we haven't heard from the Dwarves yet..
^ You can buy that game on gog.com for just a few bucks for those that are interested.
It seems like they are diving first into the areas of the world that weren’t really fleshed out before the world was destroyed. I suspect the closer we get to launch, the more we will hear about the main races like Dwarves, Brets, etc.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It also doesn't help that certain editions toned up the grimdarkness of certain factions. 6th edition Brettonia tends to be one of the more commonly cited ones on how a faction can suddenly be changed with it's viewpoints.
Well, that's the fault of Stillman's bland heroic army book. Before that, Bretonnia was even worse: full of decadent nobles, degenerated folk and extreme penury. Chaos worshippers everywhere of course and the cities were mostly slums. It was portrayed as a failed state drowning in it's own depravity. 6th edition army book was quite positive compared to this.
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Soooo. Border Princes. Well, I spot a Nehekarian tomb. And the Harkon emblem looks like the current ruler isn't that much alive (or he/she is a wine connoisseur). There's hope for some Undead stuff.
The difference between the 5th and 6th edition book is still a source of contention, especially when you factor in the many characters left behind from the edition change.
IIRC all of the 6th edition books had only two or three special characters, while the books of the two former editions had at least half a dozen. And usually one of the characters was entirely new. It wasn't a Bretonnian thing.
The best part is that most people weren't using special characters in 6th. I don't think we're going to get that though, looking at the current trends set by AoS and 40K.
Depends. The latest changes in AoS suggest GW is pushing it a "touch" closer toward what could be a more warcraft 3 style game of fewer units. Heck in a standard 2K game now you can't field more than 2 full infantry groups; and if you do you can then only take minimum strength units for the rest of the army.
This might be part and parcel of GW starting to draw a line in the style of game between Old World and AoS at an early stage. Shifting AoS to fewer smaller units whilst Old World might be the bigger rank and file game, which means less space for heroes.
Of course that depends on if GW keeps the idea of big base heroes around. AoS has a good number of big base, big model heroes that are plentiful through the game, even if they can cost up to 1K points. That creates a very different tone and style of game to a mass rank and file game, where outside of a few specialist cases, it just doesn't seem as attractive to take the rank and file concept and then throw half of that away to put Nagash on the table.
The drip feed is agony, and the occasional bumps only make it worse. Thankfully we don't have the Warmaster/Rounds/Whatever naysayers chaffing the thread with every update anymore.
What would make me happier than anything would be solely if GW would start selling squares and movement trays in preparation of this game. THAT would thrill me more than anything short of confirmation of which edition it's most based on or maybe pictures of actual models.
Just Tony wrote: The drip feed is agony, and the occasional bumps only make it worse. Thankfully we don't have the Warmaster/Rounds/Whatever naysayers chaffing the thread with every update anymore.
What would make me happier than anything would be solely if GW would start selling squares and movement trays in preparation of this game. THAT would thrill me more than anything short of confirmation of which edition it's most based on or maybe pictures of actual models.
Imagine if they started selling current square bases only to change the base size later
streetsamurai wrote: Article is a bit thin on a info. Really can't.wait.to.see what this game will give us
I'm kind of curious what the _game_ is at this point. This is all really broad background work that just floats in the background for a RPG, a skirmish game or 100-model-a-side mass battle game. They haven't even delved into ground level details, its all cursory stuff just floating at the regional level. The net is 'basically the entire continent, plus maybe more.' So, yeah, they're aiming for a vague gestalt successor to all the editions of WFB (somehow), but... that sadly doesn't tell us much. Unit size, psychology rules, formations, etc- all that went from one extreme to another (and in some cases back again) over the course of WFB's lifetime.
Ah, my old stomping grounds, the Border Princes. Scene of many a campaign, because the map was just so darn BLANK!
And here they've crowded it with stuff while still leaving it delightfully blank. See all these crests? Give it a year and they'll all be different.
The Border Princes always seemed to be the natural home of "low stakes Warhammer". And pretty much everyone had a good reason to be there. That looks very much like and elf shield to the west, and I don't recall the geographical areas having so many names. The Black Peninsula, for example. And the area's appropriately heaving with Orcs and Goblins.
Regardless of all else, when this thing is finished I want the map for my wall. About 4 foot by 4 foot square, ideally.
Overread wrote: Depends. The latest changes in AoS suggest GW is pushing it a "touch" closer toward what could be a more warcraft 3 style game of fewer units. Heck in a standard 2K game now you can't field more than 2 full infantry groups; and if you do you can then only take minimum strength units for the rest of the army.
That sounds terrible.
Anywho, the Border Princes seems to be done well with this approach. Maybe Warhammer The Old World won't be so bad?
Edit, seems to be an odd named landmark on the Eastern side of the Black gulf. It is cropped to obscure the name, think it is Tor Anrok. It is a landmark symbol I don't recognise. Think it might be a sacked Elven town/city.
Overread wrote: Depends. The latest changes in AoS suggest GW is pushing it a "touch" closer toward what could be a more warcraft 3 style game of fewer units. Heck in a standard 2K game now you can't field more than 2 full infantry groups; and if you do you can then only take minimum strength units for the rest of the army.
That sounds terrible.
It does, but it has its bonuses too. See right now both 40K and AoS don't have any kind of unit limiter like they did in the past. You can build armies pretty much however you want and, in Aos, one problem that arises is that big infantry blocks basically became the best option. This was compounded by also giving a points discount for any unit that you took in a full completion of models. So AoS 2.0 encouraged and rewarded you to take BIG infantry blocks all the time. AoS 3.0 restricts you from that very harshly (I think perhaps too harshly and I will be interested to see if some armies/units, like skaven, get a special discount or a change).
The bonus is that units which are essentially what would be considered "elites" in 40K, are now more viable in AoS. Because now if you can only take two full units at 2K, suddenly those more elite monsters and units are now only competing with multiple small infantry blocks instead of big infantry blocks. It makes them more viable without bumping their stats up to be super powerful.
I do think its perhaps a touch too much and that GW could really do with looking back to the old FOC style of army building. Heck it only broke for 40K because they never really revised it for an expanding game. I do recall armies like Tyranids having problems because all their specialists and support units were elites but you had something like a limit of 3 or 6 or so per "army". Which was really too small. The game out grew the FOC but instead of expanding it GW went for the whole "tear it down" approach. Fully free form building has the downside that any efficient unit just gets spammed. 40K started to combat that with the "rule of 3".
This is why I think 3rd edition 40k Force Organisation Chart, and WFB 6th army table coupled with troops/core scoring objectives was the best approach.
They meant that players had to take core basic infantry. So forces looked like armies and not just a list designed to win.
stonehorse wrote: This is why I think 3rd edition 40k Force Organisation Chart, and WFB 6th army table coupled with troops/core scoring objectives was the best approach.
They meant that players had to take core basic infantry. So forces looked like armies and not just a list designed to win.
Anyway, this is going off topic.
Those editions introduced the idea of "core/troop tax" because GW made damn sure most core units were dead weight in combat compared to the other slots. If you return to that without addressing the issue,the end esult will be the same- people only taking as many of the trash units as possible to not hurt their chance of winning/using the FUN stuff.
stonehorse wrote: This is why I think 3rd edition 40k Force Organisation Chart, and WFB 6th army table coupled with troops/core scoring objectives was the best approach.
They meant that players had to take core basic infantry. So forces looked like armies and not just a list designed to win.
Anyway, this is going off topic.
Those editions introduced the idea of "core/troop tax" because GW made damn sure most core units were dead weight in combat compared to the other slots. If you return to that without addressing the issue,the end esult will be the same- people only taking as many of the trash units as possible to not hurt their chance of winning/using the FUN stuff.
I must be an oddity, I always gravitated more towards core troops then a factions elite. I look at the old Jervis Johnson High Elf force (2 4th edition box sets, a Lord on Dragon, and Repeater Bolt Thrower), and think to my self, that is the benchmark for what a force should look like. Seeing armies being heavy dominated by elites/special/rare/etc I think robs thise units of their eliteness, if they are so common they are no longer Elite.
Best way to handle this is to make objectives troop/core scoring only.
Same. I traditionally build my armies for 40k and AoS/Fantasy around a strong core of basic troops. Same for other non-GW games. It pains me that in order to be able to win games in the modern meta for many of these games that my armies need to be built around spamming special/elite units with only the barest minimum of troops units instead.
Best way to handle this is to make objectives troop/core scoring only.
That was always a dumb idea
"Ha, i have one pikeman on the objective and you have a giant monster with a sword that kills gods, i have the objectiver sir"
So glad those are gone
The idea was that pikemen were everywhere, and could stay on the objectives. Elite troops and heroes would need to leave the field as they were desperately needed elsewhere.
Yes, but also, that's not how battles work, especially at the scale depicted in the game. The whole "occupy objectives" that are just spots on the board doesn't work very well with faux-medieval combat anyway. You occupy objective not by physically sitting on it, but by removing enemy presence that could threaten it. It doesn't matter if your pikes are exactly on the imaginary spot or 1 mile away, if there's more of them than the enemy, they occupy that objective unless it's something like a bridge/mountain pass, but as we know gamers are allergic to objectives/terrain features that aren't perfectly symmetrical.
Best way to balance is is to ensure that the two sides have conflicting objectives. Side A wants to stop side B from getting to the other side of the map, or holding a monolith. This way, side A wants to bring those spearmen that can block and tangle with side B's elite troops by being physical obstacle instead of being forced, and side B might want to bring more elite troops to make sure they can open the road.
But that will never happen, because it basically is antithesis of pick-up gaming for anything but skirmish games where you can bring your whole army in one box to pick from.
Cronch wrote: Yes, but also, that's not how battles work, especially at the scale depicted in the game. The whole "occupy objectives" that are just spots on the board doesn't work very well with faux-medieval combat anyway. You occupy objective not by physically sitting on it, but by removing enemy presence that could threaten it. It doesn't matter if your pikes are exactly on the imaginary spot or 1 mile away, if there's more of them than the enemy, they occupy that objective unless it's something like a bridge/mountain pass, but as we know gamers are allergic to objectives/terrain features that aren't perfectly symmetrical.
Best way to balance is is to ensure that the two sides have conflicting objectives. Side A wants to stop side B from getting to the other side of the map, or holding a monolith. This way, side A wants to bring those spearmen that can block and tangle with side B's elite troops by being physical obstacle instead of being forced, and side B might want to bring more elite troops to make sure they can open the road.
But that will never happen, because it basically is antithesis of pick-up gaming for anything but skirmish games where you can bring your whole army in one box to pick from.
What you describe is essentially narrative play, something that is how games should be played. However it seems that the community (or games designers) favour pick up and play games.
Asymmetrical objectives provide a more indepth game than the all to common 'line up your dudes, and see who brought the best list', which most none histrionical wargames seem to be.
Assymetrical objectives are in no way limited to "narrative" play, you just need to put more effort into testing and writing the scenarios than "LOL CAPTURE THIS CIRCLE". Both from the designers and the gamers.
Like I said, I only bring it up cause it'd be the best way to ensure core units aren't seen as dead weight you have to take like your least favorite sibling on a road trip, but I have no doubt it'll be "balanced" around symmetrical play only.
PS: "All-comer" lists can also go and die in a nurgle soup filled ditch as far as I'm concerned. They're bad, kill list variety and are a refuge of netlisters.
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