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chaos0xomega wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel people are really reaching in their attempts to feel offended. As a chinese person myself, I don't give a rat's arse if a character was called Sum Ting Wong. Could be called "Ching chong, ping pong" for all I care, most Chinese names when romanized sound pretty silly, my father's side of the family's surname is called Hor, and we have personally made fun of how we come from a family of "Hors". Don't be offended on our behalf, us East Asians can be pretty racist anyways and unless you're the CCP, we usually don't bother pulling off the victim card/mentality. I've played Sleeping Dogs and I've heard the song "Ling Ting Tong" playing in the background through the in-game radio and I didn't mind it at all. If you're going to get your knickers in a twist over any callback to any kind of culture, I don't see how you can even go into any form of entertainment. You do realize everything mankind has made is based off some sort of cultural influence or inspiration right?

As a Chinese person myself, I am offended by Sum Ting Wong.

I'm not actually Chinese, nor am I offended by it, but I hope you see the point being made. There were jewish and homosexual Nazis, there are Black people who are opposed to BLM, gay Mormon pastors who have married women despite being out and gay in order to live a wholesom life as Jesus/God intended, etc. Your personal feelings of non-offense are great for you, but doesn't change anything given that there are countless others who personally are actually offended by it, especially those who have been personally attacked using that exact slur/joke/insult, etc.

This just proves my point, guys like you say that it attacks the group identity, but when someone who actually comes from the group tells you that you're overreacting you get shut down for not being seen as valid since there's this invisible mob of offended people out there that they're trying to pander to even when no one has told them otherwise.

It's virtue signalling at its finest. Also, worse case scenario, oh wow, somebody got offended. And? Then we can open a dialogue and talk about why they feel offended and if its actually worth being offended about. You CHOOSE to be offended over something. People can get offended over anything nowadays and you have to factor in that in order to able to think and talk to people, you have to risk being "offensive".

But the Empire (Germany) and Bretonnia (France) and Kislev (Russia with a dash of Poland, similar to lumping China and Japan togather, one said) aren't offensive, eh?

People can get offended over anything nowadays and you have to factor in that in order to able to think and talk to people, you have to risk being "offensive".

Worse - the mob rules and you get "cancelled". We live in an age where the ultimate trump card hangs over everyone's head and is as easy to wield as reaching up and plucking it out of the sky and harnessing its power.

Polonius wrote:hell maybe we'll see some Tilea

Don'r get my hopes up. I would love some fantasy renaissance Italian kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
But the Empire (Germany) and Bretonnia (France) and Kislev (Russia with a dash of Poland, similar to lumping China and Japan togather, one said) aren't offensive, eh?

Erm, isn't Kislev Poland-Lithuania, with a dash of Russia?

Hey guys - guess what - it costs you nothing to be kind. So, maybe just do that instead of requiring gakky jokes for your own personal enjoyment and acting like things that happen on twitter are the whole world.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Can anyone confirm if there is any issue with the new character names?

Miao Ying, Zhao Ming, Celestial Dragon Emperor and his wife, the Moon Empress.

Sound cool -even if the Miao is a bit caty?

Probably better than:

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gossippa_Lotta

Wasn’t Miao Ying the Chinese girl with green eyes from Big Trouble in Little China?

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Polonius wrote:hell maybe we'll see some Tilea

Don'r get my hopes up. I would love some fantasy renaissance Italian kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
But the Empire (Germany) and Bretonnia (France) and Kislev (Russia with a dash of Poland, similar to lumping China and Japan togather, one said) aren't offensive, eh?

Erm, isn't Kislev Poland-Lithuania, with a dash of Russia?

I mean, they have a Tzar, Streltsi, Boyars, Chekists, Druzhinas, Oblasts, Kreml etc. which are all Russian terms. Although they also have a dash of Cossacks, with "Ataman" being a Cossack term, and Ungols, who make up a significant chunk of Kislev, and who look very much like stereotypical Cossacks, with "Kossar", aka their foot soldiers, even being a butchery of "Cossack". The name "Kislev" itself is a play on the world "Kiev", which refrences the Kievan Rus, which in turn was named for the city of Kiev, modern Ukraine.

So not really, they're Russia-Cossacks with a dash of Poland, mostly in their cavalry.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Can anyone confirm if there is any issue with the new character names?

Miao Ying, Zhao Ming, Celestial Dragon Emperor and his wife, the Moon Empress.

Sound cool -even if the Miao is a bit caty?

Probably better than:

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gossippa_Lotta

Wasn’t Miao Ying the Chinese girl with green eyes from Big Trouble in Little China?

It's also a real name that real people have and isn't some forced English pun.

Worse - the mob rules and you get "cancelled". We live in an age where the ultimate trump card hangs over everyone's head and is as easy to wield as reaching up and plucking it out of the sky and harnessing its power.

Weird how people like Lindsay Ellis and Contrapoints have been cancelled multiple times and have not suffered much for it, and are still thriving. Also weird how the mob can't cancel actual honest-to-god pedophiles, racists, and the like but apparently DO have the power to cancel people for making jokes or whatever. Not that I've ever seen that happen. Cancelling isn't real.

I find the mindset that not offending people/not getting cancelled requires walking on egg shells... laughable. It is very easy for me to just not do offensive things because it's usually very obvious what reasonable people are going to offended by. Then again, I could be an exceptional person. Perhaps I have a super power?


Anyways, I feel like I'm probably fully responsible for derailing this thread from the low-fantasy/high-fantasy debate - wait, I mean The Old World rumors. I think it's very interesting that they statted up Cathay with 8th edition rules? Or maybe that's how they statted up every other army and wanted to maintain consistency. I would love to see CA release an article talking about how they translated tabletop stats/rules to the game! If such a thing doesn't exist already?

Miao Lin, actually

This forum (and life in general really) becomes a lot better if you just ignore the people who get offended by everything. What they really want is to treat you like you're a bad person for not liking what they like (or not disliking what they dislike). There is no reason to listen to such people.

 auticus wrote:

People can get offended over anything nowadays and you have to factor in that in order to able to think and talk to people, you have to risk being "offensive".

Worse - the mob rules and you get "cancelled". We live in an age where the ultimate trump card hangs over everyone's head and is as easy to wield as reaching up and plucking it out of the sky and harnessing its power.

Rubbish. Who has actually been cancelled? Most people crying about cancel culture do so from their tv shows, radio shows, books or newspaper columns.

chaos0xomega wrote:

What would happen if Warhammer ever got an MMORPG, if only...

Been there, done that, got the collectors edition, wasn't much good.

Oh yes, I am a master at reading between lines..

Sure hope people won't mind me calling doom divers World Trade Fliers from now on, after all it's just a funny name.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Rubbish. Who has actually been cancelled?

Well, in 2019 Alabama banned a cartoon for depicting a gay wedding. That's on a 2000 year foundation of conservative cancel culture that includes some quite egregious examples, like canceling women by setting them on fire and cancelling family planning by bombing clinics.

Oh wait, cancel culture is just when you oppose something that conservatives like.

Cancel culture also transcends just popular media.

 Just Tony wrote:
Miao Lin, actually

Oh, right. Thanks.

Er.. I mean “indeed!”

Why is it the same damn people who spam politics in this thread every time it gets unlocked from the last damn time they pulled the same stunt?

 Just Tony wrote:
Why is it the same damn people who spam politics in this thread every time it gets unlocked from the last damn time they pulled the same stunt?

IKR? Cancel culture this, cancel culture that, it's like you can't just name a cat in peace these days.

Guys, don't you get it, these people are going to solve major popular culture divides right here and right now on dakkadakka.

We are witnessing the dawn of the age of aquarius right before our very eyes.

I'm confused by this thread. It seems to be a mix of people rehashing the high/low fantasy debate, others saying it is their god given right to use offensive terms/mild slurs to name people of other cultures due to the hilarity of it, and then a dash of people discussing the Cathay stuff.

On the first bit, I think part of the issue is regardless of the literal definition of high and low fantasy, everyone has their own personal image of it. I for one hear fantasy and just expect things like dwarves, undead, elves, etc just as default, and so things with them can be "low fantasy" to me, even though that clashes with the specific definition of the term. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who have that basic expectation when they pick up a fantasy novel/read up on a fantasy setting, and get pleasantly surprised when things roll up different from that expectation (humans only, different from standard fantasy races, or the fantasy races in different niches, or different power structures from the "standard" fantasy template, etc).

For the second, I mean it costs nothing to avoid being offensive. All you do is take the most basic of precautions, and if someone says "hey that is a slur" or "hey please don't say that, it is kind of offensive", the simple solution is to um, just not say the offensive thing? I'm not sure why people are dogpiling on the ones who are saying that maybe avoiding naming characters in insensitive manners is a good thing.

On the actual reveals, I quite like what I see. Lots of neat designs intermixed and also grounded with human factor of the mainline troops. So long as we avoid 2/3 of every army being dragons and golems it will look great. Spotter balloons floating above several units of infantry, with 2-3 of the big golems stomping forward and supported by a caster or two, scaling up to a bit more of everything at higher points. The only thing making me not so keen on them making models for the units is the inevitable cost of them in real world dollars.

 Gallahad wrote:
My word, those look terrible. Generic east Asian fantasy right at home in World of Warcraft.
Absolutely nothing of the aesthetics of the Old World in my opinion.
Why does everything have to be so generic these days? It just seems like all artists are clones of each other.
Hope the AOS crowd enjoys this at least with flying ships and giant golems, etc. This army would easily be at home in Age of Sigmar.

I totally agree!
Way to much WoW and AoS - and a leap away from gritty WHFB.
Extremely disappointed by ”Super High Fantasy Floating Mountains” and other over the top silliness.

Cathay infantry and gun powder warmachines (and dragons) = good, though.

Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.

But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.

Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.

generic, generic,generic, like the Empire isn't literally historical troops with larger skulls on their shields. You can't get more generic than warhammer in terms of design.

 kendoka wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
My word, those look terrible. Generic east Asian fantasy right at home in World of Warcraft.
Absolutely nothing of the aesthetics of the Old World in my opinion.
Why does everything have to be so generic these days? It just seems like all artists are clones of each other.
Hope the AOS crowd enjoys this at least with flying ships and giant golems, etc. This army would easily be at home in Age of Sigmar.

Hope the AOS crowd enjoys this at least with flying ships and giant golems, etc. This army wo
I totally agree!
Way to much WoW and AoS - and a leap away from gritty WHFB.
Extremely disappointed by ”Super High Fantasy Floating Mountains” and other over the top silliness.

Cathay infantry and gun powder warmachines (and dragons) = good, though.

I liked the infrastructure of the cities, but not the floating hills and mountains, is way out of place of the setting. Man can argue that Fozzrik's Flying Fortress is cannon since Blood in the Badlands, but the multiplying it a thousand time is too much. It just cheapens the thing.

The balloon vessels and the statue warriors, in my book are on the edge of them being in the Warhammer World ( look at Tomb King constructs ).

My biggest joy was the ox pulled cannons and rank and file troopers of the army, in my imagination that was Cathay coupled with some dragons.

The setting where either pole literally crosses over into a plane of raw magic where everything exists only as a perverse reflection of the mortal psyche, where armies of daemons, undead, tree people, raging fungusmen, and more see battle regularly. The setting where city-sized ships roam the seas, where an immense living crater serves as the god for an entire race, where toadmen tens of millennia old direct armies of lizard folk who spawn from pools of liquid, where rat men shoot lightning from crystals, where plate armored superhumans ride flying discs into combat...

But yeah, hot air balloons with guns and floating rocks.

I don't understand why they're releasing another expansion for Diablo 3

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cool stuff. Actually more grounded than I expected; it looks like the majority of units are human infantry of various armaments. And that is good, it fits WHFB. Plus more generic stuff is important because without that the special stuff ceases to be special.

But really I came here to drink the tears of the 'fantasy was gritty and realistic' crowd and there are disappointingly few. I was looking forward to more arguments of how giant constructs, dragons, and flying machines were out of place in a game THAT HAS HAD THOSE SINCE FIRST EDITION.

Sidenote, anyone can get offended by anything. Defining ones own behavior by trying to avoid offending a very extreme very slim minority of people simply isn't logical. Sometimes one slips up and does something that can reasonably called inappropriate and that's life. Everyone has done that at some point; we apologize, learn from it, and move on. If someone won't drop it make use of that ignore button. These days we can't count on the Dakka mods enforcing rule 1 so some degree of self-policing will inevitably be necessary.

Do you believe “sum ting wong” or, as suggested by another poster, “Ching chong”, would only offend an extreme very thin minority?

We've already had that dialogue. Theres plenty of it online, search around for "Sum Ting Wong", "Ho Lee Fuk", "Cream of Sum Yung Gai", "Ching Chong"/"Ching Chang Chong", etc. and you can find plenty of discussion and discourse about how and why its offensive, some of it pretty well researched and going back into history like 100+ years discussing how these sorts of phrases and similar were used to alienate, initmidate, and oppress asian immigrants, etc (especially that last one - ching chong has a long history of problems behind it, going back to early 20th century at least where it was used in a literal nursery rhyme : "Ching Chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped off his tail" other variants with "And chopped his head off", etc.). You can read plenty of thoughts from other Chinese (as well as other asian ethnicities that were mislabeled as Chinese) about why its a problem or how they are personally hurt by it.

Drop the virtue signaling nonsense. Its not the "I win" button that you seem to think it is. As someone who is latino I've taken my fair share of verbal abuse about my ethnicity, heritage, and culture. I don't suffer it to be done to myself or my people, I'm not going to suffer it be done to others either, even if there are individuals who don't mind it. While I'm not Mexican (or for that matter, mesoamerican), I am of Taino (carribean native) heritage and I can say it would be incredibly insulting to see my own heritage - which was basically driven to extinction by Europeans - treated in such a manner. Likewise, I know quite a few people who are of mesoamerican descent (primarily Mayan, but I know a few Nahua as well), and this is the kind of gak that would absolutely hurt and/or piss off most of them if they came across it. They have a long and proud history which was basically obliterated by white dudes who felt entitled to do whatever they wanted with their land and culture, and now all thats left of it is are ruins and gakky "jokes" made by butchering their ancestral language? Puh-lease.

Likewise, "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD" is a load of bs that people use to absolve themselves of accountability, ownership, and and responsibility for their own gakky actions and behaviors. You cannot control your emotions (unless you're a sociopath), you do not choose to be hurt or decide what your emotional response to what someone else says to you is. If something is going to hurt or offend you, its going to hurt or offend you - there is no choice to be made there. What you do have a choice in is what you do with that hurt. The whole "you choose to be offended" meme comes from a speech given by Elder David Bednar of the Church of Jesis Christ and Latter Day Saints (i.e. Mormons) - the point he was making wasn't "make a choice not to have hurt feelings", it was "make a chocie about how you respond when your feelings are hurt" - in this context "being offended" is not referring to a state of being or an emotional response, its referring to the actions you take when you suffer that emotional response. The main point of "choosing not to be offended" was to not allow the hurt that others caused you to continue to harm you after the fact, with the specific example being people who were offended by the words or actions of other parishioners and choosing not to go to church in order to avoid encountering them again. Choosing not to be offended meant meant going to church anyway so you could enjoy the gospel or whatever in community with your loved ones, even in spite of being hurt by others present with you. As it stands, the chocie being made when people speak out against something they find offensive is the choice to fight back against an attacker rather than being a victim.

Even if you could choose to control your emotions - that would be a value judgement that needs to be made by an inidvidual, not something you get to dictate to them and dismiss as over-sensitivity, etc. If they chose to be offended by something, then that would be a valid choice which you would have to respect and take responsibility for.

Sure hope people won't mind me calling doom divers World Trade Fliers from now on, after all it's just a funny name.

I said/did something along those lines to someone who was once a very good friend last year to prove a point (no longer on speaking terms as a result). He's basically the poster boy for "feth your feelings" and "YoU cHoOsE tO bE oFfEnDeD". Believe me when I tell you that he could not have touched the proverbial pearls any tighter if he tried. I have never seen *anyone* get (or maybe it would be better to say "choose to be") that offended and riled up so quickly, nor had I ever seen him attempt to resort to physical violence against someone - and the two of us had seen quite a bit of gak together. The great irony in all this is that I had a front row seat to the events of 9/11 from my 7th grade classroom window and lost family and friends in the attacks. He was on the other side of the country and watched it on tv.

Just goes to show you the people who blow off about choosing to be offended are full of hot air.

I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?

 Las wrote:
I'm confused. Is there actually anything wrong with the names in the game or are we arguing about Sum Ting Wong just as its own concept for some reason?

Personally I feel like there's nothing wrong since Tiq,Taq,To, isn't even a racial reference or derogatory in any way its just a silly pun reference to a game. But somehow we're going full false equivalency in comparing it to "Sum Ting Wong" which I also feel is being blown out of proportion. The demand for censorship is truly bizarre.