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Post by: junk
[Edit - June13, 2012]
Still running WWv6 - Still kicking ass with Anrakyr, despite the faq nerf, despite the great developments in WW building, this list is knocking 'em down on two coasts.
I've seen some great wraithwings out there in the last 6 months, and I'm really impressed that Jy2's MTO list (debuted in this thread) is considered a top list.
With 6e a couple weeks away, I thought I'd pay a visit here and look at the evolutions we all discussed before they're all turned upside down. Thanks again to everyone who contributed so much brainpower to this theoryhammer thread.
[Edit
Hey, anyone out there who has the free time or a regular gaming group who play casual games, please proxy up your own version of the wraith wing and throw down!
I'm sure we'd all appreciate your input on how the list performed for you!
]
Thought I'd get better criticism here than in the lists, because I'm really talking more theory than composition...
First, I haven't seen the Triarchs or the Wraiths getting much love in the lists or batreps - everyone's gimmick crazy, and I don't know if all those tricks are all that necessary.
Sure Stormy's Scarab Farm is a very impressive way to jump into competition, but I think it's going to be that nob-biker phenomenon, and in a few months a bunch of tomb spyders are going to be popping up on ebay, as s6 template weapons are going to be just a slight alteration finding their way into the scene.
The really impressive stuff in the codex, as far as I can tell seem to be the walkers, the wraiths, the very reasonably priced destroyer lords, and the insanely cheap annihilation barges. To this effect, I've cobbled together a simple list that I think has some teeth, but probably isn't uber competitive - I don't want to focus on the list as much as the idea of the list, lots of force reduction in a very aggressive, tough as nails army, with high AV, High toughness, some great assault/counter assault potential, and some very accurate shooting. At first glance, I'd expect to have a hard time with GK and Parking lots, but there's a lot of twin linked high strength fire coming out of this small force, and it's pretty mobile, which should allow assaults to take place at the necron player's discretion.
The Triarch's targeting ability is pretty much a death sentence for any foot lists out there - a twin linked broadside from a fully loaded ghost ark is a lot of armor saves; but 2 8-1 shots even out of melta range gives a nice chance of breaking transports open.
The Annihilation barges twin-linked destructors might not be able to reliably wreck vehicles, but they have a lot of chances to glance entire parking lots, or lay a very significant amount of wounds down on infantry.
The backbone of the force is 2 really hard jump infantry squads, with storm shield saves that can lay down a fairly impressive number of rending attacks, backed up by a preferred warscythe.
The obvious downside is the 24" effective range, and honestly, the list could really benefit from the inclusion of imotekh (and probably the nemessor as well), but I wanted to throw it out there as is to get some feedback first. Night fighting would REALLY help this build, but again, I want to hear some thoughts about the viability of this kind of army before playing around with crypteks or named hqs.
Junk's first wraithwing attempt - 1850
2 destroyer lords with mindshackles
2x10 warriors in arcs
2x6 wraiths (4xWhips)
2xStalkers
3xAnnihilation Barges
[Edit]
as of 12/16
Junk WW V6 - Fingers crossed.
Anrakyr in CCB W/ Solar Pulse Cryptek (300)
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs (145)
Lance Tek (35)
2x6 Wraiths (3 whips, 2 casters) 500
1 x 10 Scarabs (150)
1 x 10 Eternals (170)
2 x 5 Immortals (170)
2 x Scythes (200)
2 x Annihilation Barge 180
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Post by: JGrand
Both the Stalker and Wraiths are very good units. In particular the Wraiths. I don't think you need 4 whips for a squad of 6. With a good assault move 3 should suffice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think the lack of popularity has a direct correlation to a lack of models.
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Post by: timetowaste85
My necron friend ran a unit of wraiths with the D. Lord against another friend with CSM. This squad tanked everything. His only gripe was he wished he had two squads, because they're so good. Two squads of them, one squad of scarabs, a couple spiders, one D. Lord and imhotek and that's the start of something all non-DS armies will fear. Can it be beaten? Of course-but it'll be an uphill battle for anyone except DE and other skimmer-based armies.
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Post by: frothy loins
I proxied a necron army against my bros nids and the wraith/coils and destroyer lord mind shackle scarabs unit beasted everything they took on.
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Post by: BarBoBot
Wraiths are great, but until they release the models, I probably won't use them. ( not a huge proxy fan)
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Post by: junk
Yeah, the Wraith models are pretty pricey on ebay, I have a few from my oldcron army, but not nearly enough to run this list.
Reecius over at Frontline Gaming has a cool looking solution made using extra bits from the ghost ark for building wraiths, and recently posted a picture of a triarch stalker coversion:
Here's the Wraith: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/30/40k-modeling-cheap-and-fast-necron-wraith-and-scarab-conversions-tutorial/
And here's the Stalker:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/19/necron-triarch-stalker-conversion/
And Here's the Stalker's Home, which features an alternate stalker:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=127495
From the looks of it, a Defiler would make a slightly overlarge proxy, but not terribly wrong.
Unfortunately wraiths are selling for around $25-33 a piece on ebay; if GW releases them as just finecast copies of the old wraiths, were probably going to see them at $18-22; which still tacks a $200+ price tag on a wraithwing army.
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Post by: BarBoBot
The new wraiths come in the same box as the canoptek spiders.
You will be able to make 3 spiders or 3 wraiths.
The wraiths now look like big scarabs.
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Post by: junk
Weird, Really? Where'd you see that?
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
To OP, it is an interesting list. However, it does not have that much synergy. The primary argument for the stalkers is their targeting ability, but the weapons on the annihiliation barges are already TL, so the benefit is marginal. While the arks would benefit from the ability, in the end it is still just 15 shots at 24" if you don't move. To get to 30 shots, you need to be within 12", which is highly unhealthy for an open topped vehicle of AV11/13.
For me, the weakness in the list is the stalkers are not that great and synergetic, while the arks really should not be used as transports, but as warrior assembly yards (empty or full but behind a phalanx of 20 warriors).
If you want a wraithwing, why not drop the arcs, go minimal warriors, and squeeze in another wraith unit? 18 should work better than 12.
Regarding models, I plan to use hard wire, beads, and a warrior torso with wire talons to make an old-fashioned wraith on a bigger base. Another idea is to use the same for the whipping backbone, but on top put a big plastic spider from Fantasy sprues and add more wiring to make it look mechanical.
Regarding a stalker conversion, I intend to use a heavy droid from Star Wars - cheap, necron-looking, and to my eyes, much better looking that some big spider. Frankly, I really don't like the new spider-like aesthetic that GW has put in. It is way too organic for an army of bots. They should stop stealing ideas from The Matrix and such. And what is with the little command consoles for the necrons sitting as if in cubicles in some office? Really stupid. As if they would not have a cyberlink or VR of some sort. Why does everything have to look analog? The old Necrons had so much better aesthetic for me.
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
I'm guessing he didn't and read the speculation on Warseer based on the artwork in the book.
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Post by: BarBoBot
Yeah the artwork in the book shows them as scarab looking, but also in the necron rumor thread someone posted the wave 2 assortments and the spider box was a dual kit that could be used to make 3 spiders or 3 wraiths.
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Post by: junk
Necrontyr40k wrote:To OP, it is an interesting list. However, it does not have that much synergy. The primary argument for the stalkers is their targeting ability, but the weapons on the annihiliation barges are already TL, so the benefit is marginal. While the arks would benefit from the ability, in the end it is still just 15 shots at 24" if you don't move. To get to 30 shots, you need to be within 12", which is highly unhealthy for an open topped vehicle of AV11/13.
For me, the weakness in the list is the stalkers are not that great and synergetic, while the arks really should not be used as transports, but as warrior assembly yards (empty or full but behind a phalanx of 20 warriors).
If you want a wraithwing, why not drop the arcs, go minimal warriors, and squeeze in another wraith unit? 18 should work better than 12.
Regarding models, I plan to use hard wire, beads, and a warrior torso with wire talons to make an old-fashioned wraith on a bigger base. Another idea is to use the same for the whipping backbone, but on top put a big plastic spider from Fantasy sprues and add more wiring to make it look mechanical.
Regarding a stalker conversion, I intend to use a heavy droid from Star Wars - cheap, necron-looking, and to my eyes, much better looking that some big spider. Frankly, I really don't like the new spider-like aesthetic that GW has put in. It is way too organic for an army of bots. They should stop stealing ideas from The Matrix and such. And what is with the little command consoles for the necrons sitting as if in cubicles in some office? Really stupid. As if they would not have a cyberlink or VR of some sort. Why does everything have to look analog? The old Necrons had so much better aesthetic for me.
I was looking for something to bring to a January GT that was unexpected and out of the current meta; so the wraithwing seems like a nice dark horse.
RE: Triarchs - These to me seem like both an Anti-tank solution, thanks to their heavy2 multi-meltas, and an anti infantry solution thanks to Twin Linking the warriors. But I do agree they don't synergize that well with the barges.
Ghost Arks - As transports, moved in tandem, they're really about focused fire; 10 gauss shots from inside and 5 from the broadside: Two of these, twin linked, into a t4 squad will force around 13 saves. At Rapid fire range, thats 26 saves - enough to seriously mitigate the threat of being assaulted by the same squad; but not enough to garauntee immunity.
The 24" range of the army means a tight defensive formation, but moving forward very aggressively, with one barge on flank and one in the center as the first volley to wear down the closest threats; followed by triarchs, followed by warriors, and mopped up by wraiths, keeping the entire army tight with a ring of AV 13. on the flanks, vulnerable from the rear and from big blasts like Orbital Bombardments and Vindicators.
Long range shooting armies like Tau and SW are more of a threat than assault armies that have to penetrate the 24" death circle of the army, which is really tempting me to include Imotekh instead of the second Destroyer lord... but those damn destroyer lords are SO attractive point-wise. Still, because I definitely appreciate your input, lets take a look at the super wraith wing suggestion.
Pulling the stalkers out hurts AV, but the s6 Rending attacks from the +5 wraiths will have to make up for that. Imotekh effectively protects the 24" radius of the army with his forced nightfighting.
The loss of the ghost arks means 2x5 warriors are essentially out of the fight, and will contribute nothing but late game objectives as they walk out of reserve and find their way across the board.
The Immortals + Rezlord, however, can be a fairly active component, laying down 20 24" S5 shots and weathering return fire with a 4+ RP.
Losing a destroyer lord hurts the cost effectiveness of the army, and makes the wraiths a little softer without those warscythe wounds and mindshackle scarabs to factor into assaults, but the remaining 24 S6 rending attacks per squad still means an average of 5 unsaved wounds. The third (5x) wraith Squad + Destroyer lord is fairly complex and definitely a nice addition. Is it better than stalkers?
The Abyssal Deathmarks are a one shot assassin squad that can wipe out an entire unit of TEQs without difficulty, barring storm shields. Essentially a delivery method for an 8-1 template that wounds on a 2+ thanks to their Hunters from Hyperspace power or whatever its called, with 10 rapid firing sniper shots to finish off the squad... then they get assaulted and die. Still relatively cheap for a surgical strike, and a bonus if they live.
Stormy Wraithwing 1
Imotekh (225)
Destroyer Lord/Scarabs (145)
2x5 Warriors (135)
1x10 Tesla Immortals + Rezlord (240)
2x6 Wraiths (3 coils) 490
1x5 Wraiths (3 coils, 2 Casters) 215
5 deathmarks + Abyssal Cryptek 130
3 Barges (270)
Or Keeping it very Simple: 1845
Stormy Wraithwing V2:
Imotekh (225)
Cryptek w/Pulse (45)
Destroyer Lord + Scarabs (145)
1x20 Warriors w 1 Ark (375)
1x5 Warriors (65)
3x6 Wraiths (3 Coils/Squad) 720
3xA. Barges (270)
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
I prefer the V2 list.
Deathmarks seem to me a fragile gimmick. Yes, they can assassinate something, but will they recover more than their point cost on average? What units will you assassinate? Long fangs? About the same cost. Imperial guard? They don't have any particular unit that you can DS next to and wipe out and recover significantly more than the points before being shot to bits. One-for-one exchanges are not for me - I like things that kill more than they are worth. Mech will not care about the assassins that much, because the shooting is simultaneous, so even if you waste the transport with the S8 AP1, you won't get to the squishy meat inside until next turn, by which time you'll be dead.
In the V2 list, I will restructure the buy in the following way: 20 warriors with Ark and 5 warriors will become 15 warriors and 10 warriors in ark. Same cost. But now you have a fully loaded ark doing the ship of the line thing, while also boosting the numbers of the foot-slogging unit. If the ground unit gets hurt too badly, swap the two warrior squads - fresh disembarks, hurt embarks - then keep building up whichever you prefer. I really believe the arks are to be used one per two squads of warriors.
Other than that, V2 looks pretty good. You will have to maintain formation and allow only a fraction of the opponent army to enter the 24" bubble at a time. Think of it as a harvester - grab only that many wheat stalks at a time, but keep moving forward.
A version to think about, e.g. as V3, is drop Imo and get a phaeron OL with res orb, then spend the difference on upping the warrior slog squad to 20. The OL will turn the warrior sloggers relentless and RP on 4+. Frankly, Stormy can be a problem for the barges shooting (average roll is 21.5 inches after all), while the OL still gives you a court and thus the cryptek with the solar pulse. Since you will be saving 225-120=105 pts, you can split it for a second solar pulse cryptek and extra warriors. IMO 2 solar pulse crypteks is better than Imo unless you can roll a ton of 6's. One of the crypteks will join the sloggers, the other the riders, so it is all good.
Now V3 has some nice synergies:
Against mech, the relentless warriors get in range and pop light transports using the gauss rule, then the barges tesla the spilled contents. Whatever survives is jumped and minced by the wraiths. Then when it is time to retaliate, one of the crypteks pops a pulse making return fire half effective. Next turn, iterate. Also, any transports that get glanced to stun results are hit more easily by the wraiths, if I remember that weird sub-rule correctly, because stunned vehicles count as not moving, and thus autohit in CC.
Against foot armies, the warriors and barges unload on the front line to soften it enough before the wraiths move in.
Against really fast armies, e.g. DE, the gauss tech and tesla work nicely, and you can avoid being alpha-struck using the crypteks. Then the same idea works about gauss making the glanced vehicles easier to hit by the wraiths - since it happens sequentially, you will know which vehicle is ready for shredding.
Correction: with only one court, you cannot have two solar pulse crypteks. So the second cryptek can take a harp of dissonance. One solar pulse is probably enough anyway. By the second turn, you will be too close for effective night fighting.
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Post by: junk
While I like everything you just said; I am hesitant to give up Imotekh now that I've squeezed him into a functional list. The nightfight + Init Seize, even without the lightning are both perfectly suited towards this army; and if I was going to swap him out for another OL it would probably be the Nemesor, to get the USR tweaks and a bonus rezorb.
We could also drop 1 wraith from each squad to free up 105 points to add a RezLord and Pulse-Tek as Imotekhs court.
Now I don't think 1 royal court will allow for 2 pulses. We'd need 2 courts, at that means ditching the second destroyer lord; which I don't love doing.
[edited in response: I do like the harp idea, but is one solar pulse worth losing a Destroyer lord?]
Splitting the difference, Let's take a look at this - The Zahndrekh, with all those unnecessary H's in his name, allows for the glorious theft of Counter-attack, night vision, stealth, and furious charge from enemy units, while doling out top prizes like Stealth and hit and run to precious wraiths.
Not quite as good as Stormy, but attached to 20 Warriors with his rezorb, he'll likely earn his points. I hate taking him without his buddy, but eh, hows this?
Wraithwing V3 -
The Nemesor! (185)
Destroyer Lord + Scarabs (145)
Pulse-tek (55)
20 Warriors 270
09 Warriors 117
+Ghost Ark 115
2x5 + 1x6 Wraiths (3xcoils/squad) 680
3 Annihilation Barges 270
Regardless of the explicit list details, here's a wall of text.
1. Is Wraithwing a viable configuration?
2. Do Wraithwings need at least some Night-Fighting protection?
3. Are warriors preferable to immortals in a wraithwing configuration?
4. Are annihilation Barges enough fire support?
1. From a purely economic standpoint, the 2xDestroyer Lord + Shackles and 2x6 (3whip) Wraith Squad is a 335 point per squad unit of CC brutality - 15 wounds, 21 attacks (+7 on the charge), and 3++ saves with a jump infantry threat range, that always hits first and potentially negates the toughest member of the squad they assault. It seems like an awesome deal to me, and I wish I could run 3 destroyer lords to do it again. They're the one configuration in the codex that actually gives the necrons CC superiority against a lot of popular lists. I think Necrontyr40k might be right about a 3rd wraith unit as support, but also, a scarab tarpit or cheapo flayed unit might be good back up instead. Any variation of this configuration seems totally viable and reasonably cost effective. So I think that the core concept is sound.
2. Night-Fighting; better than stealth, better than invulnerable saves, better than candy being able to limit your opponent's firing range to inside your effective range is absolutely game changing. Now assuming that everyone who plays necrons rolls with some pulse-teks, it's a fair assumption that everyone in the compétitive scene will be rocking searchlights, blacksun filters, or whatever else they can mitigate the difference with; even if you're not using night fighting, chances are your opponent will have spent the points to counter it, it's never very much (sometimes as little as 1ppm). I'm undecided on this; as Gaining nightfighting will provide much needed protection for a Range 24 army, at the cost of a very efficient destroyer lord. The two options, as I see it, are Imotekh, who grants automatic nightfighting for at least 2 rounds with an added bonus of potential force reduction; or another overlord with a single solar pulse cryptek; which buys you 1 turn of advancement. Now the protection from long range fire beyond 24" guns is obviously a huge plus; realistically interfering with Razorspam, Long Fangs, Inquisition armies, and Tau. Night Fighting seems pretty attractive.
3. Warriors vs. Immortals - The warriors are attractive because of ghost ark and the almost space marine statline. But the Immortals, for 4PPM more get superior guns, and a 3+ armor save. 3x10 Immortals at 510 vs. 30 Warriors and a Ghost ark at 505 is a reasonable comparison; More rationally, 2x10 immortals plus an emergency 5 warriors at 405 seems like a perfectly functional troop selection - Immortals, however, like having RezOrbs; the best choice seems to be the Nemesor, as he has his own rezorb and can bring a Rezlord and a pulsetek with him. Tactically, the superior shooting of the immortals seems like a requirement when paired with the CC backbone of the wraithwing, but it pretty much garauntees that only one destroyer lord is hitting the field, because that royal court just became way more important. Also, if the wraithwing is saddled with foot slogging scoring units, it's going to need that night fighting.
4. The Annihilation barge stands out to me as the most cost effective vehicle in a codex of expensive vehicles; with 4 twin linked 24" S7 AP-- Tesla Arc shots it's going to wound a few times, and glance the crap out of transports, which seems like a good force reducer- but might not be killy enough. Unfortunately the Doomsday ark looks too expensive (as it should really be run in pairs, backed up by 2 triarchs to twin link those very important large blast markers), and the Doom Scythe, while really scary only works under the protection of night fighting - in order to be worth its price tag it needs to use that death ray twice, and it's such a fire magnet, and such a paper airplane, that it seems unlikely to live past round 1. The monolith seems like far too defensive of a choice for an aggro wraithwing, which just leaves the Spyders. Losing 1 of 3 wraith squads for scarab swarm and backing it up by 3 spyders seems like a half-assed use of everything, but is not without merit... the Scarabs can tarpit while the two remaining wraiths perform surgery, and we've seen them clear a parking lot thanks to Reecius. I just don't think they go together, but I'm open to the idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man, more questions keep popping up in my head -
1. What is a wraithwing most vulnerable to?
Of the top of my head, I'd say blood angels. FNP & TH/SS squads are terrifying for this list, and makes me want the Triarch Stalkers back for the Twin-linking.
Drop Pod armies, rare as they are, totally ruin my deployment stratagems, and demand splitting forces to deal with, which is anathema to a 24" army; I had the same problem with my PGK armies getting housed by Salamanders in Drop Pods.
Tyranids require ID, which necrons have a hard time dealing out without cryptek trickery. Although the Wraiths can pony up and purchase those awful transdimensional beamers which leads me to question 2.
2. Are Transdimensional Beamers or Particle Casters worth the investment?
Strength Tests are pretty hard to fail, and Beamers are the same price as one annihilation barge. My guess is that they suck because they're heavy 1, which means the wraiths' best feature is completely wasted. The Particle Casters however, only cost 5PPM and add an additional s6 shot to the wraiths - considering they don't have fleet, it seems a shame to deny them a shooting attack. 18 Particle casters is the same price as one annihilation barge, and seems like a comparatively good investment. Using a few particle casters can add complexity to the multi-wound squad also, allowing them a little extra protection from a small arms volley.
3. Crypteks - how many is too many, how many is enough?
If we're going to add a royal court to a wraith wing, I really think it should be to take advantage of their long range high strength shooting capabilities. Harp of Dissonance and a couple of Eldritch Lances at a minimum, right? Those tremorstaves are pretty impressive as well, great for making sure the unit you want to eat stays put. The problem is obviously point costs. Crypteks without trickery are manageable at 30-40 PPM... But the cuts have to come from somewhere, where, and how much?
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
I think V3 looks mature enough to warrant field testing.
I would be careful not to get carried away with tweaking. There are a lot of tricks in this codex, with a chain of synergies. But A works with B works with C works with D, does not mean A works with D or that an army of ABCD is a viable option.
My answer to the raised questions:
1) wraithwing is a viable idea. It was viable back when wraiths were taken in only squads of three and were significantly more fragile (dashofpaper list). Now they are better, get more toys, and come in larger squads.
2) I am not convinced wraiths need night fighting. Night fighting is for units that take a long time to get close if choppy, or have short shooting range if shooty. Wraiths are neither. They are fast (jump infantry), exceptionally manoverable (phase flight), and more resilient than before. They want to close in fast and start ripping stuff up. Likely, they will assault on the second turn, and they will spend the one turn in which they are vulnerable to shooting at a distance of 12 inches or so from the opponent. In such a situation, night fighting is of little use - the opponent needs to roll a 4+ on 2d6 to be in range. That is why I do not believe Stormy is of any use to the wraithwing other than potentially shaking some vehicles before they can fire, but hey, that is a lot of sixes to roll.
3) In my mind, warriors and immortals are essentially equivalent. It is a matter of personal preference if you like to be somewhat better but fewer, or a bit weaker but more numerous. Warriors do synergize with arks though, while the immortals have to slog it in a wraithwing list. If taking immortals, tesla carbines are better, which means likely fire the barges at transports and then carbine the contents spilling out. If you take warriors, you have to do the opposite - fire the gauss at the transports, then hit the contents with the barges. If there is no night-fighting, I will likely prefer the immortals because there are far fewer AP3 than AP4 in the game and because the tesla carbines are assault 24" weapons.
4) annihilation barges may not be enough fire support in other lists, but in this one they probably are.
Something to consider if you run everybody's favorite nemesor is to fill the ark with lance crypteks, one of which can have the solar pulse. The nemesor can give them Tank Hunters, which gives 5 S10 shots per turn. That is a good thing to unload on a star squad or AV14 vehicle. It also gives the opponent something else to shoot at than the wraiths. Better yet, the ark can move 6 and they can still fire as the lances are assault weapons, so the effective range on this thing is 42". And that is just a 125 pt unit (plus pulse and ark). The ark can still shoot its gauss and can spawn warriors. If it stuns itself in the movement phase, the crypteks can jump out and unload anyway, getting cover from the warriors.
5) wraith vulnerabilities
I would not worry about terminators if they deep-strike, because they cannot assault the same turn. The wraiths are way too nimble and fast for THSS terminators. They can only be a problem if they come out of SRG as LR is too slow. But the SRG cannot flat out and unload troops, so there is one turn in which it can be shot down.
Generally I do not believe in "let's match the wraiths with termies". The wraiths should never ever willingly be fighting termies. The termies need to die the way they are supposed to die - to gauss and tesla fire, or to lances if multi-wound. So, Wraiths are not vulnerable to termies, IMO.
6) IMO beamers are a stupid waste of points on wraiths. Pistols however make a lot of sense to me. They can glance transports in the shooting phase, making it easier for the wraiths to hit in CC. With a bit of luck, they can spill out the contents of the transports, so then the wraiths can assault that instead, as you are allowed to assault in that case. Provided points allow it, I'd take the pistols all the time.
7) Crypteks - one with solar pulse, maybe another with harp or tremor staff, or 5 with lances and a pulse.If you are worried about counter-charges, the tremor staff can help make it that they do not happen.
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Post by: Irdiumstern
Why would you use the Nemsor to give Wraiths stealth? They have a 3++ invul. There is literally nothing stealth does for them, unless you have some odd +3 cover where you'd like to hide some wraiths.
I'd say wraiths are quite capable of taking on THSS termies, if they do not have FNP. The 3++ invul helps quite a bit.
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Post by: junk
Re: Stealth for my wraiths. I like having options. 
Phenomenal advice; I've got to get my hands on a few more wraiths to make this happen in time for january.
As soon as I can get a proxy game, I'll get a batrep up.
I think I'm gonna settle around 15 wraiths with Casters, the nemesor and a pulse tek.
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Post by: junk
Just had a thought;
What about swapping out the Nemesor for Anrakyr, and trading in an Annihilation Barge for a CCB... Still keep the 1 Pulse-tek.
Anrakyr can sweep a squad, disembark, take over a vehicle, than assault it and destroy it, making him a pretty effective model who's effective range complements the wraithwings; The CCB still has its own tesla cannon, so I'm not losing that much firepower - I'm just really losing the Rezorb support for my 20 warriors.
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
junk wrote:Just had a thought;
What about swapping out the Nemesor for Anrakyr, and trading in an Annihilation Barge for a CCB... Still keep the 1 Pulse-tek.
Anrakyr can sweep a squad, disembark, take over a vehicle, than assault it and destroy it, making him a pretty effective model who's effective range complements the wraithwings; The CCB still has its own tesla cannon, so I'm not losing that much firepower - I'm just really losing the Rezorb support for my 20 warriors.
Maybe, but not a clear winner. The real killer about the barge is the tesla destructor (4 TL S7 tesla that average 5.33 HITS!), which you lose in converting to a command barge. Losing the rez orb for 20 models is significant as well - you lose one in six warriors that roll for RP. That will be 3 warriors per game probably, or 39 pts. On the upside, you get to do sweeping attacks and have more stuff ravage the enemy lines. It becomes a matter of preference if you like to do so by guns or by blades.
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Post by: junk
Wow, this is thread for just the two of us. I guess it doesn't matter that much, either way I'm committing to three barges, and I can model an overlord with a magnetic rezorb arm anyway.
What are your thoughts on the Phaeron ability by the way?
Also, why do you think GW likes to include so many ae words?
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Immotek
Court: 2x crypteks, 1 with pulse, 1 with re-roll.
Destroyer lord, scythe and scarabs
2x6 wraiths, 3 with coils, 1 with pistol just for wound allocation.
3 ann barges.
Maybe 5 flayed ones, just for outflanking (because 20 S4 flanking attacks doesn't suck for 65 points)
Remaining points on immortals with telsas mounted in night scythes.
So you get night fighting, and can re-roll the dice to keep/end night fighting, and a pulse for either a round of daylight or another round of darkness.
Use speed and night fight to pick your fights. Hit a flank with ~7 telsa arcs, then mop up with wraiths. Immortals have telsas so should they get shot out of the sky, then can fire as they re-enter play at 24".
It's really mixing the max lightning list with the max wraith idea. I think they work better together than alone.
-Matt
10335
Post by: Razerous
D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145
O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 180
Pulsetek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495
6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Beamer, Caster - 250
2x 5 Scarabs - 150
Doom Sythe - 175
Annihilation Barge -90 (Or 2nd Doom Sythe with -5 scarabs).
1485pts.
Edit: Forgot to cost in the O-lord mindscabs. Not as essential compared to the D-lord.
I contest that night scythes are unworthy & wraithwing (along with a need for pulses to compliment wraiths & general cron 24" shooting) requires footsloggers. A O-lord just does not do very much on foot, in a command barge support by 4-5 similar vehicles - Yum.
44333
Post by: junk
I like the Flayed ones in there as support for the wraiths.
Lets talk about immortals, because that could represent a big financial impact on the composition here, but first, lets get the practical stuff out of the way.
Ignoring the fact that there's no model for a night scythe, and I don't know what Tournaments are going to accept as a proxy.
Without impacting the list too greatly:
As it stands: For 505 Points, we get 30 warriors and a ghost ark.
Option 1: For 540 Points, we get 20 Immortals and 2 Scythes.
Option 2: For 510 Points, we get 30 immortals and No Scythes
Option 3: For 515 10 Immortals, 10 Warriors, Ghost Ark, Night Scythe
Now, assuming we stick Imotekh back in:
He has Phaeron which complements Gauss weaponry over Tesla, and suggests warriors rather than Immortals; he also lacks a rez orb, which means another 65 points for a Rezlord if we're running the big warrior block.
If we use Imotekh and 2 crypteks with 20 immortals and 2 rezlords, we probably can't afford the Scythes without losing the barges; but our Troops are WAY more resilient with 3+ Armor and 4+ WBB.
I don't think the Crypteks have a home now though; because realistically, I want to be within 24" of my opponent's army, and I only need 1-2 rounds of night fight. The Chronometron is cute, and might be worth the 40 points because it's so handy; the solar pulse at that point is a 55 point vanity; and if we have a solar pulse, then we don't really need Imotekh; except for his lightening gimmick- he ends up costing us an extra 100 points because he is more expensive than the nemesor, and doesn't have a rezorb.
Immortals pretty much demand RezOrbs or they're a risky investment over the cheaper warriors.
I'm really loathe to remove the 3rd squad of wraiths, because I think they're a phenomenal unit; and now that they have particle casters, I'm going to fight to keep them because they're a very cost effective upgrade. So lets consider the 15 wraiths with 10-15 particle casters and 9 whips sacrosanct.
If we look at it this way:
WraithWing Core: 835
1 Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs
15 Wraiths with 9 Coils and 15 Casters
That gives us 1015 points for troops and fire support.
The cheapest fire support solution is the 3 barges for 270.
Leaving us with a very healthy 745 for scoring units and bonus features.
If we include 30 Immortals and no scythes, we have 235 points left over for a second HQ and Court - We need night fighting to get into position, so a cheap solution is Overlord and Pulse-Tek. To make the overlord useful, we give him a rezorb to bolster a squad of Immortals against return fire. Total cost: 180- with 45 points left over. If we upgrade him to the Nemesor, we lose nothing, and we're at 1850. If we upgrade to the Stormlord, we need to shave points to make room for that other stuff.
Now, The stormlord says, I work well will flayed ones, and so do your wraiths. First on the chopping block: 5 immortals. 85 Points buys us 5 flayed ones, and gives us 30 points towards that 40 point chronometron. Losing the other 5 immortals in the squad means we're at 2 scoring units, and demands we defend them better (rezorb). Okay, so 85 points - Rezlord = 20 + our bank of 30 = 2x10 foot slogging immortals, one with Imotekh, A rezlord, and a Chronometron. 10 points left.
If we lose a barge, we can afford 1 night scythe. It also has a tesla destructor on it, so no major loss of firepower there.
End Result
Imotekh
Chronometron
RezLord
Destroyer Lord
5x3 Wraiths
2x10 Immortals
1 Scythe
2 A Barges
5x Flayed ones
Better or Worse than V4?
Well, same number of scoring units / less shots but better range, gained mobility at the cost of transport durability, all and all - 3+ Save vs. Ghost Ark Reconstruction / eh, I can go either way on this one. I'd give the scoring edge to the warriors, but just barely.
More nightfighting, that's a plus, so is the random chance of lightning, so that's good too.
Same amount of Tesla Destructor Fire, though it's safe to assume the night scythe is going down a lot quicker than the barges; I think the difference in impact is negligible.
Same Wraithwing Core, so no loss there.
Bonus flayed ones.
Not bad, seems like a reasonable alternative.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote:D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145
O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 180
Pulsetek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495
6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Beamer, Caster - 250
2x 5 Scarabs - 150
Doom Sythe - 175
Annihilation Barge -90 (Or 2nd Doom Sythe with -5 scarabs).
1485pts.
Edit: Forgot to cost in the O-lord mindscabs. Not as essential compared to the D-lord.
I contest that night scythes are unworthy & wraithwing (along with a need for pulses to compliment wraiths & general cron 24" shooting) requires footsloggers. A O-lord just does not do very much on foot, in a command barge support by 4-5 similar vehicles - Yum.
I'm going to have to veto this on the grounds that in order to be wraithwing, you need a minimum of 10 wraiths. The entire point of this thread is to determine whether or not wraith-wing is a viable build. Taking out the wraiths makes this conversation jump over to the Army List forum.
I like the idea of the doom Scythe, but i think it's completely unreliable with its random weapon-line length, relatively low armor, high target priority, and high cost.
I like the CCB. Come back with more wraiths?
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Post by: Dytalus
I've been thinking of swinging around a wraithwing army, but I can't find myself removing the second solar pulse for a destroyer lord. Seeing this has nudged me in that direction, but I'm still not sold. Two turns of night fight is really handy, and I can't use the stormlord since I need RezOrbs.
Since I won't have a chance to run this for a while (exams coming up), what are the uses of a second turn of night fighting for this list? Is the option for a second royal court and warscythe/scarabs OL worth changing out for a Destroyer Lord? So far in my games, Wraiths have been well capable of handling themselves against almost anything in CC without one.
I'd definitely advise casters in wraith unit. Being able to fire into a unit you're about to assault, or stun a vehicle is a huge boon for the cost.
44333
Post by: junk
The reasons why I'm so obsessed with the destroyer lord are.
1. He's insanely cost effective, at 125+20 Points, with T6, S7, 3 attacks, 2d6 vs Vehicles, and the very significant addition of mindshackle scarabs, he's one of the best bargains in the book.
2. He can hide in a unit of wraiths, protected by their 3++ and split off when necessary to crush heavy armor.
Now, that being said. I don't think he's Integral to the wraithwing, he's just an excellent complement.
I'm a huge fan of Warscythe Overlords in CCBs. They also work in this list because they can keep pace with the wraiths, and still join assaults if necessary. I love Anrakyr especially, because for 245 In a CCB, he's a serious threat to any army - most of all grey knights that are foolish enough to bring a stormraven with them.
A second solar pulse is a handy thing to have. The problem becomes the escalating point cost. Harbingers of destruction are actually the best cryptek to throw in a wraithwing because they provide not only the defense of Night Fighting, but also much needed long range high strength firepower. However, it doesn't hurt the list to Not have the second pulse, because 1 round should be enough to get to the 18-24" effective range of the army; and once you're there, night fighting won't matter, because you should be getting into CC with his biggest threats.
In Pitched battle, with a forward deployment, you'll never be more than 36" away from the unit you want to assault. In round 1, you move 12, flat out your skimmers, run your wraiths at least 1 inch. On your opponent's turn, you pop the pulse and brace yourself. On 2, you should be within 24" already, hopefully within 18".
In DoW, you walk in, and night fighting is already up. So again, max movement, with the added bonus that you can save your pulse for R2 and play a little looser.
As I've been obsessing over this concept, I've found myself leaning more and more towards CCB Scythelords. If points weren't an issue, I'd probably run the holy trinity - The Nemesor, his Varguard, and Anrakyr; two small royal courts of Harbingers of destruction, 30 immortals, each backed up by a resurrection orb, and 2 CCBs, One for each Warscythe. All around a core of 18 wraiths with particle casters (which just get better and better every time I think about them)
At 1850, I have to keep looking at things as - what do I cut and what must I keep?
Running it as conservatively as possible, at 1850, it's reasonable to stick 2 Overlords (mindshackle, warscythe) in CCBs for 195 each
with 2 Pulse Teks (110), 2 Rezlords (130)
To have our HQ block cost 630
Add our 15 Wraith block (9 whips, 15 casters) @ 690
2x10 Immortals for 340
And 2 Annihilation Barges (180)
The rezlords look like the weak link to me, and could easily be replaced by a Night Scythe or a 3rd Annihilation barge; or whatever else, like 2x5 Flayed ones, or just 3 more wraiths.
The list runs the same, but once the Scythelords sweep, they can either disembark and smash vehicles, Disembark and join the wraiths, or just flat out and get a cover save.
The Mindshackle scarabs are too good to leave behind; but can be balanced out by the Special Rules that the uniques bring to the table. Imotekh's initiative seize is the real prize for a wraith wing. The Nemesor's ability to steal USR's from your enemy is a second big bonus. But Anrakyr's combination of CCB, Grand Theft Tank, and Warscythe is a serious consideration. All three can take royal courts, but Imotekh doesn't really need one; balancing out his high cost.
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Post by: Zid
I have my own version of the Wraithwing in the works using Lance-Teks and small units.
I'll say this; Large blocks of warriors are the suck. they are super vunerable to assault, which is exactly what a good player will try to do. Even if the Wraithjs get there, unless they get there before your units swept, its GG.
That being said, i recommend lots of smaller units of warriors. That way, if they get charged it won't matter so much.
All your points on the D-Lord are spot on; the two games I've used him hes been balls awesome. Immotekh not so much. I recommend just the Nemesor; making your Scarabs Str 4 is awesome, or having a str 8 D-Lord is sweet.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Well, if you run Immortals in Night Scythes, I'd take a Monolith. Otherwise the Immortals have to hoof around the board when their Scythe has been destroyed.
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
junk wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Phaeron ability by the way?
Obviously, it only makes sense if the phaeron will join a rapid fire squad. This means warriors, or immortals with blasters. But, immortals can switch to tesla for free, in which case the ability becomes a waste.
YMMV, and I am not completely convinced one way or the other, but I think if you want gauss, get lots of warriors, a phaeron, and a ghost ark. If you do not want gauss to glance vehicles, then take immortals with tesla and skip the phaeron and the ark. Both builds make their own sense. The question is, how do they fit within the particular list.
For a wraithwing, the primary concern is to figure out how to support the wraiths because they are the heart of the list. The three annihiliation barges make sense. The question is what else to take. In my mind, the routes are:
1. Night scythe spam - probably immortals with tesla, so they can move around without a phaeron, then scythes for their tesla destructors. It produces vehicle saturation, so now the opponent has a very ugly choice to make in firing priority because there are four things that hurt him at the same time (wraiths, scythes, barges, immortals) of which he really cannot ignore 3. That would be my preferred option. Note that the same S8+ weapons that normally would ID the wraiths now have to pop scythes and barges.
2. Phalanx - max warriors with orbed phaeron, ghost ark. The warriors move and fire gauss at 24", while the ark reassembles them, and fires arrays at 24". It is slower but has a scary amount of gauss firepower. However, not as much vehicle saturation, so the opponent may be able to hurt the wraiths a lot in the first turn. That is why I do not like it as much. Note night fight will not help here, because wraiths have to be close to assault. So, Stormy is not as useful here.
Also, why do you think GW likes to include so many ae words?
It is a British thing, Probably remnants of classical or catholic education, coupled with desire to sound learned. It is hilarious, especially when coupled with obvious plagiarism - come on, everybody can see necrons are supposed to be space undead/mummies, so egyptian theme (pyramids, arks), and so pharaoh becomes phaeron. Stupid. Critical lack of imagination. Automatically Appended Next Post: junk wrote:
As it stands: For 505 Points, we get 30 warriors and a ghost ark.
Option 1: For 540 Points, we get 20 Immortals and 2 Scythes.
Option 2: For 510 Points, we get 30 immortals and No Scythes
Option 3: For 515 10 Immortals, 10 Warriors, Ghost Ark, Night Scythe
O1 is best IMO. Scythes are a steal at 100 pts for a bunch of abilities and a tesla destructor. Immortals without transports will sacrifice a lot of strategic flexibility and make the list too predictable. Mixing the warriors and immortals is a bad idea IMO, because they require different units to synergize with. For example, arks do absolutely nothing for the immortals. So O3 is just horrible, while O2 is too restrictive and has less firepower than O1.
Do 10 immortals replace two tesla destructors? 10 immortals hit 3/6 of the time for 1 hit and 1/6 of the time for 3 hits. So on average we expect one hit per immortal (great rule of thumb to remember, btw). 2 tesla destructors hit 2x5.33=10.66 times. So, they get 1 more hit than the immortals and they have S7 vs S5 and they arc! No contest who is shootier. And wraiths need somebody shooty to support them.
Now, assuming we stick Imotekh back in:
We covered that. Stormy does not help a wraith list. Wraiths will spend one turn in front of the guns at less than 18 inches away. Night fight even without senses and searchlights is just good for 21.5 inches range on average. So, night fighting will make no difference to the wraiths in practical terms.
Immortals pretty much demand RezOrbs or they're a risky investment over the cheaper warriors.
I disagree. Immortals do not have the model count to make use of the orb reliably. The orb just means that 3 instead of 2 out of every 6 RP rolls gives you a model back. So, the difference is 1 in 6 rolls. For a squad of immortals, that means 1, maybe 2 models of difference per game. That means 17-34 points. But the orb is 25 and you have to buy a 35 pt lord. The math does not work. The orb is simply not as good as it used to be because RP rules have become better. I would not spend the money on orbed lord specifically for immortals. I'd rather buy more dakka, so that not as many immortals have to roll. Also, smaller squads means wipe out is more likely, we may not even get to roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is my wraithwing list NWW1:
Destroyer Lord 125
2x (10 immortals, all tesla, night scythe=270)
3x (6 wraiths, all pistols and coils = 300)
3x (annihilation barge =90)
total = 1835
Drop one pistol and add mindshackle scarabs for exactly 1850.
44333
Post by: junk
Necrontyr40k wrote:
Here is my wraithwing list NWW1:
Destroyer Lord 125
2x (10 immortals, all tesla, night scythe=270)
3x (6 wraiths, all pistols and coils = 300)
3x (annihilation barge =90)
total = 1835
Drop one pistol and add mindshackle scarabs for exactly 1850.
100% pure uncut pharmaceutical grade wraithwing, but you know what I'm going to say.
Just cut 1 wraith from each squad, there's enough meat in there to play a second destroyer lord and put scarabs on both.
But it feels right, there's a ton of tesla and assault.
So I guess, how do we get night scythes nto a tournament?
45830
Post by: Necrontyr40k
junk wrote:
Just cut 1 wraith from each squad, there's enough meat in there to play a second destroyer lord and put scarabs on both.
That is a viable alternative. The reason I prefer mine is because ... drum beat... I do not think the mindshackles are that great... (jumps in his CCB and zooms away before the rotten eggs can start flying).
Here is my reasoning. What is the purpose of the wraiths? To rend light vehicles and rip up GEQ and MEQ. Wraiths do not want to fight termies. Wraiths do not want to fight characters. Wraiths hate multi-wound models, because they cannot ID them (S6 only). So, the last thing they should be doing is fight a tough CC squad. The tough CC squads are generally slower than wraiths, and so generally avoidable.
So, why should I pay 40 pts for two lords' mindshackles? They should not be fighting CC specs alone, and joined with wraiths, they should still not be fighting them. So, if I take them and then do what I should be doing with wraiths, i.e. kill hapless guardsmen and smurfs, what does it matter if one of them fights on my side half the time?
I think they are great in other builds but unnecessary for wraithwing.
So I guess, how do we get night scythes nto a tournament?
I have been working on the issue. Check out the jedi star fighters on amazon dot com by Revell and others. They are about the right size and only ~10 bucks each.
These models are about 7 inches long and so about the right scale. I think they would look pretty cool, especially when I take out the jedi and stick in a warrior torso.
Frankly I don't like the look of the barges. So, I am planning on using the tri-droid fighter.
Alternatively, one can use a Star Wars Trade Federation capital ship if the right scale can be found. Another idea is a cylon raider from BattleStar Galactica.
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Post by: Negator80
I find this thread very informative.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
I wouldn't give up on the night fighting too soon.
Yes, it is a wraith wing.
But 3 maxed squads of wraiths is only half the army.
The other half would really like night fighting.
I caught turn 3 and 4 today of necrons vs chaos marines.
The Night Scythes were tearing it up. Being able to move 12" and still fire let them stand off fairly safe and plink away.
I'd go Immotekh, Lord w/scythe CCB, 3x6 wraiths, and 4x5 immortals with night scythes, 2 pulses, 1 tek with re-roll, and sprinkle in lances.
With units in scythes, it doesn't matter that they are small. With 4-5 turns of night fighting (re-roll to keep it going, then pulses) the immortals who do go into reserve typically don't get shot. One unit (immotekhs unit) has gauss.
AV13 barges is better than AV11; but if you factor in the effect of night fighting, the AV11 wasn't getting shot at all that much.
Immotekh vs not...
IMO, he's only worth it with the re-roll to keep the night fighting going. The lightning he rains down does help quite a bit.
Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.
Oh, nighting fighting for most of the game and a CBB was brutal. That thing was picking off the power fists before the wraiths moved in.
I get that the destroyer lord is bad ass, but I'd rank the CCB assassin higher.
-Matt
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Post by: junk
Necrontyr40k wrote:junk wrote:
Just cut 1 wraith from each squad, there's enough meat in there to play a second destroyer lord and put scarabs on both.
That is a viable alternative. The reason I prefer mine is because ... drum beat... I do not think the mindshackles are that great... (jumps in his CCB and zooms away before the rotten eggs can start flying).
Here is my reasoning. What is the purpose of the wraiths? To rend light vehicles and rip up GEQ and MEQ. Wraiths do not want to fight termies. Wraiths do not want to fight characters. Wraiths hate multi-wound models, because they cannot ID them (S6 only). So, the last thing they should be doing is fight a tough CC squad. The tough CC squads are generally slower than wraiths, and so generally avoidable.
So, why should I pay 40 pts for two lords' mindshackles?
Well, 2 reasons, and these are really the only 2 reasons.
1. The mindshackle scarabs have a good chance of neutralizing upgrade characters and their ID weapons, including ICs attached to squads (better than average against LD10).
2. The destroyer lord is a keen armor buster; and can be concealed in a squad of wraiths (protected by their 3++) and either split off to wreck heavy armor or kept in to provide 3-4 power weapon attacks.
But again, I'm not saying it's the be-all end-all, I think that the difference between 5 and 6 wraiths is a trade off for the extra war scythe. I'm sure the list will work well either way.
I guess it's time we Really Focused on HQs - Theory hammer the crap out of them Vs. Destroyer Lords
The first thing we have to really figure out is Night Fighting as it applies to the wraith wing:
I'm of the opinion that 1 round of Night Fighting would be a huge benefit to a wraith wing. More than that, I don't think it's necessary, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
The wraithwing fights at 18-24", and demands a tight formation. 1 round of night fighting should get you into that range.
The benefit of Multiple rounds of night fighting is to protect your army from Long Range shooting in defensive lists, like Tau, SW Long Fang lists, MechDar, Dark Mechdar, and Mech IG.
It's also an expense which does nothing against armies like Draigowing, Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons; and horde armies like Ork, FootDar, Foot Guard, Tervigon Spam
If we really want that 1 round of night fighting, here are some ways to get it that we should probably theory hammer into the ground.
RE: CCB Scythelord w/ Pulsetek (235)
As discussed, complements the wraithwing in movement speed and effect; I'm a fan
+ The scythelord brings a Pulse-tek that provides 1 Turn of Night Fighting and a LasCannon for 55 points. Not bad
+ The Scythelord can crack heavy armor or assassinate key models
+ The Scythelord is well protected ( AV 13, Flat Out cover save)
Only 90 points more than a destroyer lord for a lot of benefits, 110 if you decide to stick scarabs on him and have him disembark to join wraiths before assaults.
RE: Immotekh
I reached out to Reecius via PM and he also advocated the addition of Imotekh, so I think it's something that needs to be seriously theoryhammered.
+ Multiple rounds of night fighting aren't necessary because this army fights at 18-24", but they certainly don't hurt. Weighing his cost vs. 2 pulseteks justifies his price tag.
+ Seizing on a 4+ is Very Attractive for this list.
+ His Lightning stom Gimmick is a boon to an army lacking long range shooting (even if it is a crap shoot) And helps against a lot of the lists that would give WW a hard time.
- No warscythe, No RezOrb, we do not take advantage of his Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs
- Costs 225, 265 with reccomended chronometron.
- Even in A CCB he contributes nothing other than his special rules.
RE: Nemesor - I've been talked out of this one, In this army he's just not cost effective.
+ Special abilities are useful and versatile throughout the game
+ Brings a rez orb, and Allows royal court
- With Pulse-Tek, he costs 240, No Warscythe, so no value in CCB
- Since we do not take advantage of Phased Reinforcements, he has no place other than a slightly handy support unit, an overpriced Rezlord
RE: Anrakyr w/ CCB - I love this guy, but is he worth it?
+ Does everything a Scythelord does, in addition to upgrading 1 squad of immortals with a somewhat useful upgrade
+ Mind in the machine is amazing and pretty reliable (3+)
+ Allows for a royal court, fits well in a CCB
- Total cost with Pulse-Tek and CCB = 300 (65 points more than the standard overlord)
Other HQ choices:
Illuminator, The Vargard, Orikan, Trazyn; anyone see any value in considering these guys?
Taking everyone's suggestions, and my own preferences into account, I'm currently looking at:
Junk WW V5
Anrakyr in CCB W/ Solar Pulse Cryptek (300)
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs (145)
1x5 Wraiths (4 whips, 4 casters) 235
2x5 Wraiths (3 whips, 4 casters) 550
1x10 Tesla Immortals 170
2x5 Tesla Immortals (Night Scythes) 370
2x Annihilation Barge 180
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
HawaiiMatt wrote:
The other half would really like night fighting.
The shooty component has range of 24". Stormy helps them hide, as the opponent has to roll above average to spot and shoot them. But, he hinders them as well, because they themselves have to roll above average to hit at max range. So, I'd say he is neutral, unless we are talking about a phalanx list, where you want to get the arks and warriors within 12" for double-tap.
The only way to solve the above is pop a pulse on your own turn to cancel Stormy temporarily, but that will only get you two turns if Stormy is lucky and keeps going.
I caught turn 3 and 4 today of necrons vs chaos marines.
Are you sure the CSM were using their searchlights? Are you sure the game was played according to the rules?
I'd go Immotekh, Lord w/scythe CCB, 3x6 wraiths, and 4x5 immortals with night scythes, 2 pulses, 1 tek with re-roll, and sprinkle in lances.
That is a viable variant, but it sacrifices the shooting of the immortals - if they stay in the wormholes, they don't shoot. But, you get more kites with tesla for the points.
Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.
Technically, they are still useful. They are pistols and thus extra close combat weapons, right? Wouldn't they give an extra attack in CC?
Oh, nighting fighting for most of the game and a CBB was brutal. That thing was picking off the power fists before the wraiths moved in.
Again, check the rules. Stormy hurts his own shooting unless you use pulses. Either he gets lucky and you use up the pulses to cancel him on your own turns, or he gets unlucky and you use the pulses on the opponent turn. At least, this is how I read his rules.
CCB is good if you have the points for it. The army above facing the CSMs must be well over 2000 pts.
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Post by: junk
Necrontyr40k wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:
Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.
Technically, they are still useful. They are pistols and thus extra close combat weapons, right? Wouldn't they give an extra attack in CC?
I was curious about this too, so I stuck it up on YMDC.
My feeling is No, because it's not 'an additional' ccw, because wraiths aren't listed as having ccws, just 'phase attacks' Whip coils are not referred to as CCWs either in the text or description, so even with both, I'm afraid that the wraith only gets his base 3. Regardless, the pistols are great for 5 points, even if they don't provide an extra attack, it does give Transport popping power to a squad that realy want's to assault the contents of said transport. It also means that the wraiths rarely have wasted turns.
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Post by: Defiler37
junk wrote:Necrontyr40k wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:
Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.
Technically, they are still useful. They are pistols and thus extra close combat weapons, right? Wouldn't they give an extra attack in CC?
I was curious about this too, so I stuck it up on YMDC.
My feeling is No, because it's not 'an additional' ccw, because wraiths aren't listed as having ccws, just 'phase attacks' Whip coils are not referred to as CCWs either in the text or description, so even with both, I'm afraid that the wraith only gets his base 3. Regardless, the pistols are great for 5 points, even if they don't provide an extra attack, it does give Transport popping power to a squad that realy want's to assault the contents of said transport. It also means that the wraiths rarely have wasted turns.
And lets not forgot the wound allocation if you take coils as well. 
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Post by: Razerous
junk wrote:I like the Flayed...
....with more wraiths?
D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145
O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 195
Pulsetek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495
1x 6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Caster, Beamer - 250
2x 2x Wraiths, Coil - 160
Doom Scythe/Monolith - 200
1475-1500pts
(Loose out on the Scarabs - Scarabs are quite superb - 10 Scarabs or 4 wraiths, essentially).
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
My understanding of the basic rules is that the only time a pistol does not add an extra CC is when you already have two close combat weapons. The point being, humanoids only have two arms, so having a third weapon gives you options in what you use to attack with, but you cannot use more than one "extra close combat weapon" at the same time. Since wraiths are not mentioned to have two close combat weapons already, the extra pistol must count as +1A. I bet that is one of the first things that will get FAQed.
But, that is a discussion for another part of the forum.
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Post by: Razerous
Necrontyr40k wrote:My understanding of the basic rules is that the only time a pistol does not add an extra CC is when you already have two close combat weapons. The point being, humanoids only have two arms, so having a third weapon gives you options in what you use to attack with, but you cannot use more than one "extra close combat weapon" at the same time. Since wraiths are not mentioned to have two close combat weapons already, the extra pistol must count as +1A. I bet that is one of the first things that will get FAQed.
But, that is a discussion for another part of the forum.
You need two close combat weapons. A pistol is one close combat weapon. I cannot see any other mention of an additional close-combat weapon on the wraith entry.
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
Regarding HQ, for me the top runners for leading the wraithwing are destroyer lord, scythelord in CCB, and Anrakyr in CCB.
When the points are tight, e.g. in small games, I think the destroyer lord is enough. He meshes well with the wraiths since he is jump infantry, has the warscythe, and has the preferred enemy (everything). All that for 125 pts is pretty good. His only weakness is he cannot take a court, and thus has no access to crypteks and solar pulse. So, he only works if night fighting is left to chance.
The overlord (90) with warscythe (10) and tachion arrow (30) clocks at 130 pts, so Anrakyr gets furious charge, counter-attack, mind in the machine, and pyrrian immortals for just 35 pts. With that in mind, Anrakyr is a steal. So, Anrakyr is clearly the winner there in terms of point efficiency. However, both of them need a CCB to get anywhere, so they actually come with 80 pts on top as a requirement. This means 245 for Anrakyr. On the upside, they allow a cryptek with solar pulse.
The question is, is Anrakyr in a barge worth 2 destroyer lords? My guess is no.
Zahndrekh and Stormy are on the expensive side for my taste. They may make more sense in games above 2000 pts.
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Post by: junk
Razerous wrote:junk wrote:I like the Flayed...
....with more wraiths?
D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145
O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 195
Pulsetek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495
1x 6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Caster, Beamer - 250
2x 2x Wraiths, Coil - 160
Doom Scythe/Monolith - 200
1475-1500pts
(Loose out on the Scarabs - Scarabs are quite superb - 10 Scarabs or 4 wraiths, essentially).
So, lets extrapolate; to fit it in with the current discussion (1850) you've left room to up the wraith count. I'm going to suggest cutting the Beamer, as I think it's a piece of garbage, and we'll figure it out from there, if it's just there for wound allocation we can do the same thing by just varying the coils/casters, 1 naked, 1 caster, 1 coil, 3 both.
Razerous List scaled to 1850
D-Lord, Mindscarabs - 145
O-Lord, Scythe, Mindscarabs, Command Barge - 195
Pulse-Tek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Scythes - 495
2x6 Wraiths, 4 whip coils, 4 Casters- 540
1x5 Wraiths, 3 Coils, 3 Casters - 220
Monolith or Doom Scythe- 200/175
Now, 3 warriors in Scythes obviously should not be disembarking, as they're too fragile; so the only shooting in this list comes from 3 night scythes and the monolith/Night Scythe.
The monolith, I understand, will be a gateway for warriors trapped in reserve after the scythes are destroyed.
Since the monolith doesn't keep pace with the movement speed of the rest of the army, it will have to be deployed via Deep strike in order to impact the game (risking mishap, or irrelevance if it's stuck in reserve)
However, if deployed early enough and positioned well enough, it can have some impact as a mobile wall, it's gauss flux arcs are not tremendously attractive as weapons. 12 bolter shots essentially. And the "portal to New Jersey has a d6" range, which also is underwhelming. So Let's look at the doom scythe instead.
Doom Scythe: AV 11, supersonic flyer - so It can definitely keep pace with the army. Its death ray is potentially so powerful that it probably just became Target #1. Assuming the conservative interpretation of the rules, the death ray can impact an average of 7 models. Pretty nice, but in order to do so, it's got to be within 12" of those models meaning that is will always be subject to return fire. It's relatively safe to assume that you may only get 1 shot with a night scythe; and in order for it to really be worth its points, that shot has to be effective. If you manage to keep it alive for 3 rounds however, it's probably the best unit in your army.
The choice to back up wraithwings with annihilation barges was a pretty important one. Each barge provides 4 S7 Tesla-Arc shots at 24", it's AV13 which means it can take a little punishment, and it's a skimmer, which means it can keep pace with the army. Once it's in position, it can bring its not insubstantial secondary weapon to bear (I like the gauss cannon, but pretty much either one is fine), and works equally well as Anti-transport and Anti-Infantry, with the str to put wounds on MCs. Not glamorous like a doomsday ark or doom scythe, but a very solid HS choice at a very low price.
Now, you have 3 night scythes in the list, which do have twin linked tesla destructors; and that fills the same role as the A. barges, but they are pulling double duty as both troop transports and fire support; essentially very expensive razorbacks. While they will draw fire, they can't take much of it, and that leaves you high and dry with no other fire support to speak of.
Still, with your 3 night scythes, 1 doom scythe, 3 units of wraiths, and 2 CC HQs; you do have a substantial alpha strike; and even though it's kind of a glass cannon, it might still do the job.
Now to scale it back down to 1500, I guess the only thing to do is lose the small wraith squad and the destoyer lord. This version is a little too risky for me, but maybe the approach could be improved? Scythe-wing?
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Post by: SuperCow
Good thread. Keep it going please! Learning lots of good stuff.
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Post by: junk
It's made me think a lot about the scythes so far, which is great because I had figured I wouldn't mess with them until 6th edition, when the rules for flyers are likely going to be clearly established.
Using a Scythe-wing approach, we definitely want to go back to Imotekh and definitely add a chornometron, because we want night fighting all game. It may not be viable at 1850, because scythes are so expensive... but screw it, let's play.
Scythe/Wraith Wing, Will it blend?
Imotekh: 315 + Chrono-tek, Pulse-tek
4x5 Warriors in Scythes (660)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 4 coils, 3 Casters (265)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 3 coils, 4 Casters (260)
2 Doom Scythes (350)
The entire game is predecated on maintaining night fighting for as long as possible, and using Aerial assault as much as possible; the wraiths broadside the weakest part of the enemy's defenses, while the scythes concentrate on the biggest threats. Imotekh does nothing but hides and and tries to get lucky with lightning.
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
I think we are making progress but we are still confused about night fighting, and that is a critical issue for HQ selection and points allocation.
For the third time, Stormy hurts his own army by the night fight rules. Every turn in which his power remains active requires a solar pulse on the necron half of the turn, to cancel the effects. Otherwise, half the 24" tesla will fail to see the enemy! And we do not have searchlights, acute senses, or night vision! So, it goes like this:
Turn 1: Stormy automatically succeeds, necrons need a solar pulse on their turn half.
Turn 2: Stormy keeps going on 4+. If he succeeds, necrons need another solar pulse on their turn half. If he fails, necrons need a solar pulse on the enemy half of the turn.
Turn 3: Stormy must roll again. By this time, both crypteks are spent, so if he succeeds, the enemy is blind but so are we. If he fails, both sides see each other.
Conclusion: to be effective in night fight with Stormy, you need both crypteks and the advantage is gone by turn 3.
Alternative: drop Stormy completely and have 2 crypteks to blind the enemy for two turns while keeping everything visible on our turn.
Conclusion: There is no way to keep night fighting throughout the game without blinding ourselves as well for all but 2 turns.
So, Stormy is no good in a 24" shooting-heavy list. Stormy is good for scarab farming and the phalanx (12" shooting).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If all we want with night fighting is to have it on Turn 1 when wraiths are vulnerable to shooting, all it takes is a single cryptek. Stormy is less good for that (he might succeed on turn 2 and beyond), and is horrendously more expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pay close attention to the wording in Stormy's rule and the pulse rule. Stormy's power works over a GAME turn (both player turns). Pulse works over a turn (a PLAYER turn).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: doom scythes.
Doom scythes are a waste of points. The death ray is too short range. The kite is fragile - it needs to stay 24" away and pelt the enemy, not try to get close and eat meltas and power fists. It is a peculiarity of the codex. Night scythes are stupid cheap for what they do; doom scythes are stupid expensive. Also, heavy slots are best spend on annihilation barges, which are stupid cheap for their firepower and quantum shielding.
Re: monoliths.
Monoliths are significantly nerfed in this edition. Living metal now only protects them to some extent vs shaken/stunned results. Now they die to lances and meltas. For something that has to be so close to be effective, they are remarkably more fragile. The cost reduction does not compensate enough for the new fragility. They have no place in a wraithwing list because they do not synergize with anything in it. Btw, the warriors/immortals stuck in reserve due to downed kites can simply walk onto the map. Here immortals with tesla are the choice because they can walk 6 and still fire at 24, which means they will be in the fight quickly enough.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Alternative: drop Stormy completely and have 2 crypteks to blind the enemy for two turns while keeping everything visible on our turn.
This is exactly my pick, cheap and effective.
Night scythes are stupid cheap for what they do; doom scythes are stupid expensive.
However, they are only AV 11 and thus more or less super-overcharged Rhinos. The problem with Night Scythes is that their cargo must go in reserve when they crash, and here the Monolith comes into play which is able to bring the passengers back to the battle field.
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Post by: junk
I agree that the stormlord is detrimental to both players. That's not under contention.
I stand by WW V5 for now
Anrakyr in CCB W/ Solar Pulse Cryptek (300)
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs (145)
1x5 Wraiths (4 whips, 4 casters) 235
2x5 Wraiths (3 whips, 4 casters) 550
1x10 Tesla Immortals 170
2x5 Tesla Immortals (Night Scythes) 370
2x Annihilation Barge 180
I feel like it has enough shooting and enough assault to be a very comfortable TAC list.
I absolutely agree with you about Monoliths, they have no place in this army.
Regarding the stormlord, I don't think there was any confusion that night fighting affected both players. Also, I believe that using pulse-teks on your own turn also negates his lightning storms, which is a terrible waste.
Night Fighting however does something great for us; considering how mobile our army is. It may force the opponent to cluster his units. If the opponent spreads his units out around the table, then we want night fighting to go on for as long as possible, and we can go about bringing our entire force to bear against fractions of his without worrying about Long range attacks from those distant squads.
If the enemy does decide to cluster in response to the night fighting, then we move in and our 16 Twin Linked Tesla Destructor shots can freely arc around his army, while our wraiths Multi-assault.
Now, until we have a few dozen playtests nailed down, I can't really say this with certainty, but I feel like a wraith wing should be deployed tightly, second, and with an eye towards approaching your opponent obliquely from 1 flank. With this approach, we can safely move our attacking units within 12" of the closest enemy models and be protected by night fighting from the remainder.
The more your enemy spreads out, the longer you want to maintain night fighting. Yes it hurts us too, but since we're most effective under 24", it hurts anyone that wants to stay outside of 24"+.
I like 2 pulse-teks, I think the list works fine with 1, and I can live without any; but the idea of sustaining night fighting for 3+ turns is just fine by me as well.
Yes, immotek works better with the Warrior/Ghost ark approach. I think the Immortals/Scythe setup may be superior, and he doesn't belong there.
The scythe/wraith wing idea seems fun though; and consistent night fighting is really a necessity to keep those paper airplanes flying. It's probably not at all competetive; but why not bring it up?
Automatically Appended Next Post: wuestenfux wrote:Alternative: drop Stormy completely and have 2 crypteks to blind the enemy for two turns while keeping everything visible on our turn.
This is exactly my pick, cheap and effective.
Night scythes are stupid cheap for what they do; doom scythes are stupid expensive.
However, they are only AV 11 and thus more or less super-overcharged Rhinos. The problem with Night Scythes is that their cargo must go in reserve when they crash, and here the Monolith comes into play which is able to bring the passengers back to the battle field.
Okay, assuming we do squeeze a monolith into the list, how do we use it?
It's a 200 point back up plan if we don't deploy it centrally, considering it moves no faster than the foot slogging units it activates, wouldn't it be better to just deploy the immortals outside of the scythes? If the scythes survive they pick them up and supersonic to objectives late game, and if they don't we're counting on the monolith also surviving to pull those units in. In DOW it either walks 6" off the board edge and falls far behind the effective range of the army, or it has to deep strike, with no way to manipulate our reserve rolls, if it doesn't come in before the night scythes die, then it's a race between the immortals in reserve and the monolith. Not to mention that deep striking the monolith means that 200 points of our army is doing nothing until its number comes up. Keep in mind the thing has a massive foot print, and a 2d6 scatter causes a significant risk of mishap.
I
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
wuestenfux wrote:
However, they are only AV 11 and thus more or less super-overcharged Rhinos. The problem with Night Scythes is that their cargo must go in reserve when they crash, and here the Monolith comes into play which is able to bring the passengers back to the battle field.
Theoretically, yes, but is that a problem in reality? If you want to grab an objective on the first turn, move the kite to it and unload the passengers. It can move 12 and still do it and fire as well at full capacity, and so do the passengers up to 12 with gauss or 24 with tesla. Then the kite is free to do the gunship dance until it gets popped.
If you do not want to get that close that early, do the same idea but move less and drop the passengers someplace forward and behind cover, from where they can march to an objective while firing tesla at full capacity all game.
Regarding the kites being only AV11, look at DE. Their raiders and ravagers are AV10-11, few people bother with shimmer shields, and they still do pretty well, for about the same price and LESS FIREPOWER!
There, I said it - the real secret of the newcrons is that we can be the new DE if the army is built right. We can alpha strike using NS kites spam, we have more dakka, and cheap too ( AB and NS are underpriced for their stupid-amazing capabilities). We now have deadly gunships for transports! We also have night fight toys that DE do not have. We don't have wyches, but we have wraiths - ours are more expensive but better in some ways - tougher, multi-wound, rending, stronger, and 3++. I pity the hapless that faces the WW- NS spam.
The real problem of us old Necron players is that psychologically we expect to see the old ways and want to act according to old instinct - be tough, resilient, imperturbable, keep coming back, like the living metal we are. But those days are gone. The new codex is about firepower at the expense of resilience. We are more fragile but we get speed and firepower. So, we are the new DE, just tougher and shootier. That bothers me spiritually but I embrace it intellectually.
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Post by: junk
Okay, so lets get into strategy.
Again, until any of us actually comes through with the modeling, builds one of these lists, and starts playtesting it (mine wont be ready for 3 weeks at least, and that's assuming that I can find tournament legal stand ins for scythes) we can still theorize.
So, here are some scenarios:
Scenario 1: Against the average opponent in Round 1.
Seize Ground, 5 Objectives, Pitched Battle against a Van. SM player with a Salamander list that isn't quite focused. He Forces you to go first so he can reactively deploy.
Vulkan
2x10 Tacs (Flamer, MM, PF SGT, Drop Pods)
5x Sternguard (2xMelta, 3x Combi Meltas, PF SGT, Drop Pod)
5x Sternguard (2xHF, 3x Combi-Flamers, PF SGT, Drop Pod)
5x Assault Terminators TH/SS + Land Raider Crusader
2x Whirlwinds
Scenario 2: We make it through the first round and go up against the tournament favorite in round 2.
Capture And Control, Dawn of War - The opponent is running a Tony Kopach clone list, and made his last opponent cry. You win the Initiative roll-off.
Njal Stormcaller 245
6 Wolf Guard – Combi-melta x6, Powerfist x6
8 Grey Hunters – Meltagun, Wolf standard - Rhino
8 Grey Hunters – Meltagun, Wolf standard - Rhino
8 Grey Hunters – Meltagun, Wolf standard - Rhino
5 Grey Hunters – Flamer LazPlazBack -
5 Grey Hunters – Flamer LazPlazBack
5 Grey Hunters – Flamer LazPlazBack
5 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
5 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
5 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
Scenario 3: After that last fight, we pray for an easier match up, and the chaos gods send us:
Annihilation, Spearhead - Forced to Play 2nd by a fluffy Chaos Undivided CSM.
DP Wings, Lash
DP Wings, MOK
1x9 Khorne Berserkers, W/Pfist Skull Champ + Rhino/Havoc Launcher
1x8 Plague Marines + Pfist, 2xPlasma Guns + Rhino/Havoc Launcher
1x7 Thousand Sons, + Sorc w/ Bolt + Rhino / Havoc Launcher
1x6 Noise Marines + Sonic Blasters and PW + Rhino
2x3 Obliterators
Or Invent your own using your favorite list.
-------
Homework! So, imagine you're bringing your version of the WW to the fight, pick one of these match ups, and write up a pre-game analysis.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Why do you want night fight, even though your guns are only 24"? Beacuse you use your speed to hit an outside edge of the opponent, not moving your whole force across into range at once.
By hitting the edge, most of your shooters are ~18" out or so, but most of your opponents army is 30" or more away. It doesn't totally hide you from enemy fire once you close in, but it does cut your opponents firepower down considerably.
Chaos was playing a cult list (which I didn't know at the time). Havocs on both flanks, 1 land raider and 3x rhinos, + defiler.
Necrons went 2nd, and darkness prevented almost all 1st turn shooting. He flat outted the scythes to the outside.
Turn 2 nightfighting kepts over half of the chaos army from shooting, necrons started popping rhinos.
Turn 3 had necron shooters backed off, again limiting chaos shooting.
This is where I started watching and was thinking that, if he had a ton of wraiths it would be awesome. You can limit (not prevent, just limit) shooting by using the speed of the scythes to jump out on a flank. Anything that moves towards you to shoot is moving into assault range of the wraith wing.
So, is it worth ~300 points to take away half or more of your opponents firepower? Most likely.
Is it worth both of your HQ choices to do it? That is very debatable.
As for the night fighting, if you do take the re-roll, you could use it to try and keep it going, or end it, as you see fit. You then get 2 more turns of night fight control with the pulses.
For slightly less night fighting, I'd go Immotekh and 1 pulse, 1 re-roll. That would leave the 2nd slot open for destroyer lord. Raining down lightning (only on a 6, but hey, you get lots of tries) is really awesome.
Personally, I like the CCB more than the D-lord, just for the range.
Here's a good question for list design,
What the plan for AV14? Glance it to death?
Hope for the really lucky wraith rending hits?
Have the HQ's do it all?
-Matt
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Post by: junk
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Here's a good question for list design,
What the plan for AV14? Glance it to death?
Hope for the really lucky wraith rending hits?
Have the HQ's do it all?
AV14 is a little bit of a headache, and the HQs have to be the ones to deal with it.
There are no other realistic options in this list.
1-2 shot(s)/turn from the pulse-tek lance(s), a roughly 10% chance per 5xWraiths on a full assault, a roughly 20% Chance per barge to glance (gauss cannon) which wastes the Desructor shots.
Our immortals are most likely majority spec'd with tesla, so that wont help.
The Night Scythes can't hurt it, as only tanks can ram vehicles... which is sad, because I like the idea of supersonic kamikazi attacks.
Your 2 warscythes are the only valid option.
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Post by: FastusMustachius
http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/11/necrons-night-fight-and-imotek.html#uds-search-results
If you want, you can take 2 Destruction Crypteks with Solar Pulse instead of Immotek or take them with Immotek. The big bonus of Destruction Crypteks is that Solar Pulse can be used on your opponent's turn; your army can fight in the daylight. The big con is that if you don't take Immotek, you only get 2 turns on night fighting; Immotek has a constant chance of inflicting night fight.
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Post by: junk
I think we've covered that pretty extensively, but if you have a new argument for or against the stormlord's impact on the Wraith Wing, i'd love to hear it.
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
The AV14 is a problem in principle. But, since we are looking to take it down in CC, the real important AV is the one on the back facing. There are only the Land Raider and the Monolith that have a AV14 backside, IIRC. I have rarely seen LR on the table and the monolith is now nerfed, so it is doubtful they will be nearly as common as before, especially with the line of new vehicles available.
Still, this AV issue has started me thinking about synergies with scarabs. What about a list like this:
2x (6 wraiths with coils and pistols) = 600
1x (10 scarabs) = 150
1x (3 spyders) =150
2x AB = 180
HQ and crypteks by taste
fill the rest with tesla immortals in night scythes
This list still has a heavy wraith presence (12 instead of 15 or 18), but it has more threats - scarabs with replenishment, lots of tesla destructors. It is a more balanced, hybrid list, which forces the opponent to make many bad choices.
Also, scarabs and wraiths work well together because they move about the same and can multiassault vehicles to make use of entropic strike and rending and S6. A list like that has little to fear of AV14.
if the opponent buys the hype and tries to wipe out the scarabs, he leaves the wraiths and the tesla intact enough to kill him. If he ignores the scarabs, they multiply on the way in and kill his vehicles. If he concentrates on shutting down the tesla firebase, the CC will hit him in full force. If he spreads out firepower, he may end up not hurting anything enough.
I realize this is a hybrid list more than a wraithwing spam, but ultimately we want strong nasty killy lists that make the other armies shake in their boots.
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Post by: Sasori
Necrontyr, if you are going to run Spyders at all, you really want to throw the Gloom Prism and Claw on a squad of 3 for wound allocation purposes.
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Post by: junk
Well, what are some other options at our disposal?
Anything with entropic strike works; if we don't want to give up the fast attack choice, what about a squad of Praetorians with Voidblade/Particle Caster. They're jump infantry so they match our wraiths, 3 attacks on the charge thanks to the additional pistol, entropic strike and rending. 5 of these guys assaulting a stationary AV14 vehicle have a greater than 50% chance of wrecking it.
Do we need the gloom spiders as well as the scarabs? Can we just field the 10 Scarabs?
If we are going to field Spyders, we might as well stick a fabricator claw in there to keep those annihilation barges shooting.
If we do include spyders, do we need more than 1? 1 Spyder gets the extra 2.5" on the Swarm; then is pretty much outpaced by the rest of the army.
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Post by: JGrand
Imotekh: 315 + Chrono-tek, Pulse-tek
4x5 Warriors in Scythes (660)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 4 coils, 3 Casters (265)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 3 coils, 4 Casters (260)
2 Doom Scythes (350)
Sorry for not reading every post here, but what about:
Anrakyr in CCB- 245
Pulse Cryptek-55
Overlord with Scythe, Tac Arrow-130
Pulse Cryptek-55
4x7 Immortals-476 (1 is Phyrrhian Eternals)
6 Wraiths with 3 coils-240
6 Wraiths with 3 coils-240
9 Scarabs-135
3x Annihilation Barge-270
Total:1846
You have 2 turns of opponent only night fight and 12 Wraiths. Plus, the anti AV14 problem is mitigated by 2 tac arrows and Scarabs. The list is balanced with strong amounts of anti infantry once those metal boxes start popping. The Phyrrhian Eternals are joined by the other Overlord and can try to bail out squads if push ever comes to shove. The Pulse-teks hide in 2 other Immortal units. Really, with the amount of threats and two turns of night fight I don't think the Immortals will be a top priority much anyway.
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Post by: Necrontyr40k
junk wrote:
Anything with entropic strike works; if we don't want to give up the fast attack choice, what about a squad of Praetorians with Voidblade/Particle Caster. They're jump infantry so they match our wraiths, 3 attacks on the charge thanks to the additional pistol, entropic strike and rending. 5 of these guys assaulting a stationary AV14 vehicle have a greater than 50% chance of wrecking it.
That is an option, but is pricy to my taste. 200 pts for 5 models with 1W and just 3+ is really fragile expensive.
If you do not want to take the scarabs, entropic can be gained by replacing the HQ warscythe with void blade - rending and entropic. I think it can be done for free - don't have the codex with me. Then the plan is to lower the armor for everybody, e.g. all wraiths, rather than do the killing outright. All that is needed is a few hits regardless of damage rolls, to turn a Land Raider into a rhino. Then tesla can finish it off. Running the warscythe is a bit risky, because a few bad damage rolls can make it ineffective, while losing the model leaves the rest of the army up the creek with the AV14. IMO, entropic is the way to go for heavy AV.
Do we need the gloom spiders as well as the scarabs? Can we just field the 10 Scarabs?
If we are going to field Spyders, we might as well stick a fabricator claw in there to keep those annihilation barges shooting.
If we do include spyders, do we need more than 1? 1 Spyder gets the extra 2.5" on the Swarm; then is pretty much outpaced by the rest of the army.
Spyders are optional. Scarabs can just be run by themselves. They are sacrificial in terms of both fluff and actual tactical use.
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Post by: junk
Necrontyr40k wrote:
Spyders are optional. Scarabs can just be run by themselves. They are sacrificial in terms of both fluff and actual tactical use.
Well, if we do run
2x6 Wraiths (3xCoils, 5 Casters) 530
10 Scarabs 150
It comes out to be pretty much the same as our 15 wraith config, point wise, and solves AV problems.
It lets our HQs go back to being assassins, and as we know, scarabs and wraiths work well together, so still synergistic.
(it also saves me about $50, as I still have a ton of scarabs from my oldcron army)
Weighing the Scarabs against the Praetorians by cost/benefit that Necrontyr brought up, I suppose I'm in favor of this as a new optimization.
Nod to HawaiiMatt for bringing up the issue.
Is the addition of scarabs preferable to keeping the extra wraiths and switching back to warriors/phaeron for the gauss?
Option A:
HQ Block (1 or 2 pulse-teks)
2-3 units of Immortals (5/5/10 or 10/10 probably)
2 Night Scythes
2x6 Wraiths
8-10 Scarabs
2-3 Barges
Option B:
Big HQ Block (Imotekh/Phaeron/Royal Court with bells and whistles)
Warrior Phalanx (+/- ghost arks)
3x5-6 Wraiths
3 Barges
I'd still like to see people taking their wraith wing up against one of the spec lists and writing up a pre-game analysis.
I'll try to playtest this weekend with proxies.
Anyone making progress on night scythes (I just ordered 2 Tesla Destructors from a bits dealer on ebay, now I need to figure out what I'm gluing them to)
45830
Post by: Necrontyr40k
My guess is both options will work. However, my preference is for list A, because I like night scythes better than ghost arks (faster, cheaper, 5.33 S7 arcing hits vs 3 or 6 S4 gauss depending on firing arcs and distance). Also, I feel more confident with 10 immortals with S5 tesla than 13 warriors with S4 gauss - better weapons, better save, no need to pay for phaeron.
Still, field experience will show which build is more viable.
By the way, a lot depends on the firing arcs of the ghost arks. The model looks like arcs are 45 degrees centered along an axis normal to the keel. If this is the case, the arks will have to do ship-of-the-line tactics, including Adm. Horatio Nelson's shenanigans (splitting the enemy line) to fire broadsides in both directions. This is characterful but really awkward in practice. As usual, GW has done a poor job at defining the firing arcs.
44333
Post by: junk
I think I have to agree with you here about A over B. Probably because I really want to flex Anrakyr, the scythes are growing on me, and also I feel like warrior spam requires too high of an HQ investment to really maximize wraiths.
Any other glaring holes?
What about a BA DoA list, or a Khorne list?
I think we have the firepower to handle hordes, and the tools to dismantle a mech. Elite armies will likely cause headaches.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Now this is THE thread I've been wanting to see some experienced players discuss.
A mixed equipment Wraith squad with a Destroyer lord has been the shining star in my test games. My difficulty has been getting enough effective shooting and synergy from the remainder of the army and the lack of mobility that I have been used to playing mechanized marines.
I've been thinking about how to get a Wraith squad working while still including big Z as I really love his utility. I'm more of a fan of the A list you have.
This is what I have come up for myself;
Zahndrekh
Des.Lord + scarabs
4x Lancetek + 1xPulse
1x5 warrior + Ark
1x5 teslaimmortal + NS
1x5 teslaimmortal + NS
1x vanilla stalker
1x5 Wraith, 2 coils, 2 pistol (wound allocation)
1x5 Wraith, 2 coils, 2 pistol
1x Annihilation Barge
1x Annihilation Barge
@1850
The idea being that the lancetek's ride the Ark with big Z, and attempt to force multiply via the stalker. They are the replacement for scarabs as an answer for taking on high AV at a very respectable range.
I haven't attempted to make a Wraith wing list previously, my old Necron's were a very generic list and as I only started playing in 5e I often put them back in the closet before long 
I also think Z could assist with furious charging wraiths or tank hunting the cryptek squad, or if you really want to gamble hit and run wraiths so you can line up some serious low AP and high strength Tesla shooting. It's a little off the mark for what you guys have been discussing so far but keen to hear some thoughts.
44333
Post by: junk
I'd say your list is pretty in line with what we've been discussing, so lets throw it on the fire and see if it burns.
Our arbitrary decision that 10 Wraiths are the minimum means that pretty much whatever tactics we discuss apply to your list as well. The Stalker and the Royal court work well together.
I pretty much talked myself out of Zahndrekh for 2 reasons; 1. he has to many unnecessary letters in his name, and 2. He's spending points we're not using.
I think he's great, don't get me wrong, but how much would you miss him if he were replaced by a standard overlord? You're hiding him in an ark, which means his 2+/3++ or his rezorb may not come into play; so his main contribution is just his USR tweak, and potentially his phased reinforcements for our 2 scythes (probably not though).
Regardless, I think the HQ choice is always going to be subjective when we're dealing with these builds, because as long as there's plenty of tesla destructor fire, and lots of wraiths, it means we have to play aggressively from the start.
What was your last match up? How did it go?
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Yes I do think using Zed as an HQ is a concession in my list. His abilities with USR's are good fun, while providing just enough tactical use for him not to be a large point sink concession at my usual game level of 1850 points.
My last match up with new Necrons was versus a full Tyranid deep strike list (I was scared!), it was table quarters with a single objective in each of our quarters. The list I used had destroyers, scarabs and a monolith instead of NS transports and the extra wraiths and barge. He was rocking out 4 MC's a few swarms of gene stealers, the doom of malantai and some gaunts, it was a 1750 game as he was practicing for a tournament.
I was seriously skeptical about the game as on turn 2 he managed to roll in all his army bar a single Trygon. Ymgarl genestealers popped up in terrain I was occupying, MC's all landed on target, same with the spore pod and doom of malantai, and all the flanking units bar one turned up close enough to move onto the board and reach assault which was my fault for deploying soo close to the table edge. So it was a horrible place to be in for a Necron army.
My warriors with Zed, 10 strong immortals, and destroyer squad actually stood up to a fair bit of punishment before they went down, both of us were generally impressed with RP overall. But the shining star was all the while he was stuck in combat whittling away my foot slogging troops, the Wraith squad and D.Lord were zipping from one combat to another, and they were getting results! Against MC's the mindshackle scarabs are extremely powerful, the squad were winning combat first turn against single MC's. Results were the same for squads of genestealers and gaunts with the wounds that slipped through able to be effectively allocated. It ended in a loss finishing on turn 6 as I had no scoring units remaining to claim my objective, but still had 4 of 5 wraiths and the d.lord that were one turn away from contesting his objective. We had gone 1 for 1 in terms of points worth of each others armies destroyed which I really couldn't believe considering how poorly it all started out.
I have been playing around with my list in the few weeks since, but was never happy with the results, it all looked too mish mash with clusters of units that synergized but not the army overall. My lists were heavily biased by the models I already had from building old codex lists. But I have always had a soft spot for Wraiths and the idea of the Wraith wing, I like the way the list looks fairly aggressive to play, and this seems to suit the 24" range weapons. Over all that is the first list I have looked at and actually been happy with. Very keen to proxy up a game and see how it fares against a tournament oriented vanilla marine list, as playing crazy deep striking Tyranids isn't exactly your everyday match up.
I only wrote that list after reading through this thread, tailored of course to suit the fact that I will include Zed, and do want some ranged high AV tools to compensate for the lack of a barge riding Anrakyr or cheap generic over lord. My curious point at the moment is if I wanted to free up some points to invest elsewhere, should I drop a barge or drop a NS transport and consolidate the immortals into a 10 man squad?
44333
Post by: junk
Whoah, nice recovery from a bad luck turn. DS Tyranids is a tough fight.
I like your list. I say run with it. When I first conceived my version of it, there were a pair of stalkers in there; for some reason I got it in my head that they needed to be run in pairs. YMMV.
I'll try to give a fair cost/benefit of your list.
You obviously want a ghost ark in there as a ferry for your Royal Court. I get that, it's a great transport for them. You're paying a 65 point warrior 'tax' to get it. I only point that out because it makes an expensive (royal court) unit even more expensive. BUT it's not entirely wasted points, because on turn 3 or 4 when those warriors finally come out of reserve, ideally they'll be such a low priority target for your opponent because of what you're doing on his side of the table, that they could actually grab an objective.
I definitely agree that sticking a rezorb with the royal court is a good idea, as those models are so pricey that the 30 point investment is worth it for the extra 17% chance of RP. So at least thats 30 points worth of nemesor that may not go to waste if the ghost ark crashes.
As far as the specific composition of your royal court; you want to swap out a lance for a harp, the reason why is that the Entropic strike HIT is resolved before the Damage Rolls. So against an AV14, you're actually increasing your chances of ruining the crap out of the vehicle by around 12% (according to my gorilla math).
But more importantly, if you ditch the ghost ark you could just footslog the court and the nemesor, because the court has long range and cant claim objectives, and instead play a 3rd nightscythe with 5 immortals, bringing your tesla destructor count to 5.
I'm just going to spitball this, I have no idea if it's a sound decision at this point, but I figure it's worth bringing up: As attractive as that ghost ark is, you could pull it and the warriors out of the list (freeing up 180) and turn it into a fully operational death star; with a veil of darkness, gaze of flame, seismic crucible, some scythe-lords with scarabs... Or hell, bring in the Vargard. No, that's probably not a good idea come to think of it.
The reason triarchs fell out of my list is I already had so much twin linked fire that It was really just a 150 point multimelta; but with the royal court, I don't know how to figure out it's potential impact. I'll say this, I like having as many AV13 targets as AV11 targets. That being said, the only unit that really benefits from the targeting feature is the royal court. So he's what, just a markerlight for them? And if he is successful with his Heat Ray attack, well then he's just a multimelta and his other ability doesn't come into play; and since everything else in your list is twin linked, so it doesn't make sense to shoot at infantry with it. I'm on the fence, Combined with a lance toting royal court he could wipe out a squad of paladins before they get a single psycannon shot off.
I think the triarch is really amazing warrior support though. In a warrior spam list, I'd definitely want at least 1.
Pistols on wraiths: As I've said a few times already, I LOVE them. 12" S6 on Jump infantry is like having hellfire rounds. Nearly everything is getting wounded on a 2. It gives the wraiths the ability to potentially pop transports in the shooting phase so they can assault the units inside, and for that reason I like really jamming them in there. Against a razorback, 5 pistol shots is slightly better than a 22% chance of wrecking it, roughly the same chance as killing 2 MEQs pre assault, almost as good as your chances of taking out a TEQ before you assault them. Not fantastic odds, but it's a personal preference, I like having more dice.
Annihilation barges, this goes pretty much without saying, insanely cost effective. I think I like the Gauss cannons as secondary weapons; just as likely to glance AV12, with the added bonus having an equal chance of glancing 13 & 14, and great for doubling down on Meqs.
In the end, regardless of any of this, I think your list works just fine. I like it, I think it's fun and it's got sharp teeth.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Mech Eldar would certainly be a challenge for the Wraith wing.
Serpents with scatter lasers or shuricannons can provide S6 spam able to take down scarabs quickly. Moreover, a Seer Council on foot (mounted in a Serpent) or on jetbikes will be able to stall a unit of Wraiths and then will eventually come on top.
7637
Post by: Sasori
wuestenfux wrote:Mech Eldar would certainly be a challenge for the Wraith wing.
Serpents with scatter lasers or shuricannons can provide S6 spam able to take down scarabs quickly. Moreover, a Seer Council on foot (mounted in a Serpent) or on jetbikes will be able to stall a unit of Wraiths and then will eventually come on top.
Are you sure about the Seer Council coming out on top? Do you have anything to support that?
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.
7637
Post by: Sasori
wuestenfux wrote:Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Seer council coming out on top against the Wraiths. I understand they are a hard nut to crack(I have a Seer council as well) But at first glance I don't really know if they would come out on top against 3 wraiths. It would be close either way.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Sasori wrote:wuestenfux wrote:Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Seer council coming out on top against the Wraiths. I understand they are a hard nut to crack(I have a Seer council as well) But at first glance I don't really know if they would come out on top against 3 wraiths. It would be close either way.
Well, 3 Wraiths would not be a match-up vs. a full Council. If you take 6, then we are eventually talking.
7637
Post by: Sasori
wuestenfux wrote:Sasori wrote:wuestenfux wrote:Well, my Seer Council always comes on top, nah, at least almost always. A Council of 10 Warlocks on foot (mounted in a Serpent) with a Fortuneseer is a tough nut to crack, harder than a coconut. With embolden (usually taken more than once), the Farseer can reroll failed ld checks (morale and psychic tests). Indeed, I'd run a Council on foot vs Necrons as the will have a hard time taking down the Serpent before it unloads its cargo.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Seer council coming out on top against the Wraiths. I understand they are a hard nut to crack(I have a Seer council as well) But at first glance I don't really know if they would come out on top against 3 wraiths. It would be close either way.
Well, 3 Wraiths would not be a match-up vs. a full Council. If you take 6, then we are eventually talking.
Well, 3 Wraiths wouldn't be a wraith wing either. It looks the minimum people would be taking per squad is 5.
Of course 3 Wraiths wouldn't be a match up though, 3 Wraiths is a fraction of the points of a full Seer Council.
44333
Post by: junk
Seer councils are vicious, fortune is a tough nut to crack.
For our purposes, lets assume worst case scenario: a 700 point seer council death star backed up by 1150 points of mechdar.
Farseer - 155 points
Eldar Jetbike,Witch Blade, Spirit Stones, Mind War, Fortune
Warlock Squad x10
Eldar Jetbike, Singing Spear x5, Destructor x8, Witch Blade x5, diverse powers
Every TL Tesla destructor will average 1/2 an unsaved wound against fortune.
A full squad of 10 Immortals shooting Tesla will do 1
It's tough to figure out the 6x Wraith vs. Seer council, but it doesn't look good for the wraiths unless conditions are optimal. They won't be able to whipcoil the entire squad, which means they'll be taking some hits up front.
If the Seer council gets the drop on them, assaulting the wraiths, running enhance, minimizing contact with whip coils- I'm not doing all the math to factor in pre-assault shooting, but it looks like 3-4 unsaved wounds against the wraiths, then they take about 1-2 unsaved wounds from the wraiths, then deal another 1 unsaved wound at initiative 1.
If the wraiths get the drop, and can whip coil more than half the enemy squad, they take 1 up front, then deal almost 2 vs. fortune, then take another 1-2.
It looks like the best thing to do is use the wraiths to tie them up for a few rounds and focus on the rest of the army.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
junk wrote:But more importantly, if you ditch the ghost ark you could just footslog the court and the nemesor, because the court has long range and cant claim objectives, and instead play a 3rd nightscythe with 5 immortals, bringing your tesla destructor count to 5.
In the end, regardless of any of this, I think your list works just fine. I like it, I think it's fun and it's got sharp teeth.
Yeah I feel like I have found the primordial soup of my Necron list, it will take time and tweaking to reach it's potential, but I do think Wraith wing is a viable competitive list. At it's core we are bringing solid shooting and reliable combat units to the table.
After sleeping on it, I have to agree with ditching the Ark and warriors, to be replaced by another 5 man immortal squad with NS, redundancy in the mobile troop area is useful regardless, but the additional firepower makes it an easy choice. Foot slogging the royal court would rely on Zahndrekh, he would need to use his S5 2+/3++ to soak up incoming fire, this makes more use of his in-built equipment cost, and gives him the option of using terrain and providing Stealth to the squad if you think they will be a high priority for enemy shooting which is likely.
This then also brings me to question the inclusion of the Stalker for force multiplying the Cryptek squad and adding AV. Crazy Zed can force multiply them already with tank hunter, and the free points give room for a Transmogtek with Harp, this still has high AV tools, and also adds synergy to the Destructor spam if you can reduce high AV values with it. It is not a cheap unit at 225, but when I think of what else to use for the same tools at that range there aren't many options.
This then leaves a spare 100 points to spend (my first list the Cryptek's were over costed by 15 points) this can be spent on an extra wraith in each squad, a third annihilation barge, or a 6 strong swarm of scarabs. I'm not sure if the Scarabs would sit low enough on the threat scale to reach priority vehicles and reduce the AV to enable the Destructor and Lance spam to finish vehicles off, but it is a possibility that I think may be worth testing.
This is my new A list;
Zahndrekh
Des.Lord+scarabs
1x TransmogTek+Harp (Almost maxed out wound allocation)
1x DestrucTek+pulse
1x DestrucTek+Gaze
2x DestrucTek
1x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
1x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
1x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
1x6 Wraith+3 coils 2 pistols (Three wound allocation groups)
1x6 Wraith+3 coils 2 pistols
1x Annihilation Barge (Likely both with Gauss Cannon's, or one of each)
1x Annihilation Barge
@1850
44333
Post by: junk
I like it. Very well rounded, I would make that switch though for at least 1 more coil with those wraiths.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Forgot to add it up there, but I also found that the Stalker without power weapon attacks was easily stuck in a tar pit combat situation even against units that were half his cost, thinking about this also facilitated me dropping him.
The major issue of course is where are the Wraith and Night Scythe models, any rumours on a wave 2 at this stage?
44333
Post by: junk
Unfortunately, the 2nd wave trend is 6 months from codex release. Converting a barge to a night scythe seems like a tournament legal solution; i've seen a few different versions that look good. For wraiths, check out what Reecius did over at frontlinegaming.
Wraith:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/30/40k-modeling-cheap-and-fast-necron-wraith-and-scarab-conversions-tutorial/
Night Scythe:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=18472
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
When it comes to Wraiths, I really wish I could have a look at the new models before committing to the idea I have currently. I would like to convert the metal Wraiths to have a Deathmark head, and then convert one of the hands to have a whip or a integrated pistol if required. I have 6 metal Wraiths already, so obtaining another 4 to 6 is certainly do-able, but it really depends on the prices I can obtain them for.
My other job is to convert 5 Praetorian's to look like a pack of staff wielding Cryptek's, this I don't think will be all that hard. As for my HQ or Overlords, I will steal them off the barges when making Annihilation Barges.
As for the Night Scythe, do you think people would accept wave serpents as proxy models? The conversion you linked looks passable, but to spend the money on a barge and butcher it up, then to have what will likely be a very nice looking model turn up a few months later doesn't sound like a good investment at the moment.
44333
Post by: junk
I'm not sure how Tournaments rule proxies. I'm always looking for inexpensive alternatives to ruining a barge... I've picked up some extra tesla destructors on ebay for $5/each.
I'm pretty sure if you're bringing the list to a tourney, they're going to want to see some effort in your conversion, unfortunately. It may be better to scratchbuild one and try to get away with grabbing odd necron bits on ebay.
In the mean time, what is the best compromise we can come up with for a Scythe-free WW?
Do we go back to warriors, or footslog immortals?
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
My current thought on the new wraith wing... Keep in mind this is based on what i've tested so far and is based on my personal preference for the codex. I never really ran wraith wing in the old dex so this is half a shot in the dark (played the wraiths as a tack-on to my more successful list the last few games and they did well).
Anyway, here's what I came up with (note that this is at 2k... for 1850 drop the deathmarks and gaze of flame, and add a wraith to each squad).
HQ:
Immotekh
Zandrekh
Elite:
6x Deathmarks
6x Deathmarks
Fast Attack
5x Wraiths w/ coils
5x Wraiths w/ coils
Troops
10x immortals w/ guass blasters, 2x harbingers of destruction (one with gaze of flame) (HQs goes here)
10x immortals w/ tesla, 2x harbingers of destruction
10x immortals w/ tesla, 2x harbingers of destruction
Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
The basic idea of the list is that the wraiths do what wraiths do (scare the crap out of my enemy), the 2 10man immortal squads move to secure points or provide mid-range suppressive fire. The gauss unit moves in behind the wraiths cleaning up anything that falls back or rapid firing down bigger infantry units before the wraiths assault. The deathmarks are there to deal with dedicated CC enemies or things that the wraiths just can't handle (big bads with S8 weapons etc)
This is all based on my past experiences of course (I've had 6man deathmark units eat MCs worth twice their point cost in previous games), and with immotekh in the list it's easy enough to gain the 12in needed to abuse their guns. Zandrekh's presence in the list allows not only for making a wraith unit all sorts of dangerous, but is also a defensive mechanism for the ranged (providing counter attack and denying furious charge to a potential assault on an immortal squad for example).
The above is untested (hoping to do that this weekend), so it's very much subject to change. Specifically, potentially dropping Imotekh for a DLord and the deathmarks for something else if they fail to continue to perform (likely more wraiths). Also, not entirely sure on the wargear options on the wraiths. They are all set to whip coils for now since I've been fighting boat loads of CC orientated lists (nids, orks, csm), and I'm just not conviced the pistol is worth the loss of 2-3 more of their models attacking at I1. Though I suppose the wound allocation is a valid counter-argument to that. Has anyone done the math yet to figure out just how much more durable having 2 allocation groups makes them?
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
WanderingFox wrote: Though I suppose the wound allocation is a valid counter-argument to that. Has anyone done the math yet to figure out just how much more durable having 2 allocation groups makes them?
If possible you could create 3 allocation groups with Wraith wargear, coils, pistols , and standard. I'm terrible at getting solid math in writing to show the difference between the two. But it should be a noticeable boost to their resilience over the course of a game. My issue with running max coils is you need to ensure they are all utilized often to get the points cost back. Generally three 40mm bases should be able to B2B a decent amount of the enemy squad with some finesse, of course huge squads like Nids and Orks would leave you wanting more coils, but in a take all comers list I think it's too many points invested in equipment that could almost become another Wraith squad.
My vote is on dropping Imotek for a destroyer lord, with some mindshackles you have a squad of wraiths that can actually go head to head with elite combat units if it is really required, or ensure a crushing blow against vehicles, you would have to drop a LanceTek though, and pay for a solar pulse to assist you slogging it out while still at a distance from your enemy.
junk wrote:
In the mean time, what is the best compromise we can come up with for a Scythe-free WW?
I guess the non Night scythe alternative for our lists is large groups of tesla immortals foot slogging it? It sounds restrictive and I think it would really slow down the army over all meaning the fire support for the Wraiths isn't in place like it is with 3 fast skimmers. This would end up being fairly similar to WanderingFox's list, I'm not sure if I am personally happy with large amounts of foot slogging restrictions for a Wraith Wing if you intend to play offensively.
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
More or less what my thoughts were Sectiplave. Going to test it out and see how it does and then swap to something like that if I find it lacking.
That said, I highly doubt I will ever take all 3 wargear choices in a squad of wraiths (the beamers are heavy ;_; ) ... and not taking any wargear on them doesn't feel right when the other two options are both good. That said maybe 3/2 coils/pistols units...
44333
Post by: junk
Fox, If you do drop Imotekh, you could invest in two abyssal staff crypteks to go along with those deathmarks. An 8-1 Template weapon that wounds on a 2+ is pretty amazing. It also provides the option of throwing a veil of darkness in there, which would work towards compensating for at least some of the limited mobility of foot slogging troops.
As Necronyr40k has pointed out, Imotekh's extended nightfighting doesn't really line up too well with the 24" range of those tesla immortals; but stick 1-2 Solar Pulses in there to defend yourself.
However, Immotekh works amazingly well with warriors (as we've seen in Reecius's battle reports).
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
Aware, I found it not worth the points... The unit is squishy enough as is and tossing 60 pts of cryptek into a unit that will likely never make use of the veil of darkness more than once is kind of silly.
Note that the cryptek does not have the deep strike special rule, therefore the entire unit may not deep strike, and thus the only effective way to get them into range is to veil them. In order to change this we need an explicit FAQ entry that states that the cryptek gains all the special rules of the unit it joins (sadly the wolf guard do not provide enough precedent to allow for a convincing argument without an explicit FAQ entry).
The immortals are defensive in the list with immotekh. Wraiths clean house on things that try to advance into shooting range, and as they push forward the immortals follow behind to hold points and shoot up anything that's left over. Obviously immotekh's power limits them to a degree, but on average it only reduces their range by 3in (average night fighting result is 21in).
That said, it is a limitation of the list and it does, at least to some degree, rely on the lightning strikes from immotekh to make up for any lost shooting.
In the end it will boil down to how well it works out in play testing.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
WanderingFox wrote:and not taking any wargear on them doesn't feel right when the other two options are both good. That said maybe 3/2 coils/pistols units...
Yes if you have the points to spare the pistols are great for 5 points, I was thinking more for a full squad of Wraiths 3/2/1 Coils/Pistols/Nothing, that still gives 3 wound allocation groups, I would need some math person to tell me if saving 5 points is really worth having an extra allocation group as I'm not entirely sure if the extra defense is worth it provided you have the points for the pistols.
I still think the footslogging variant will do just fine, a 10 pack of immortals isn't easy to take down without throwing over powering combat units at them. It will just be harder to recover from poor deployment, or to react to a faster moving army.
I take your side of the arguement WanderingFox when it comes to adding Cryptek's to jump infantry or Deathmarks, they do NOT have the deep strike rule, so I don't think this was an intended combo. Alternative delivery methods indeed become dangerously expensive without much protection.
43588
Post by: Anpu-adom
I doubt that Crypteks and Court Lords will get FAQ'ed to gain the USR's that the troops they join get. There is no doubt that it would seriously improve Deathmarks and Praetorians, but it won't happen.
On the matter of Wraith load out, going 4 whips and 2 pistols makes sense to me.
That way you can get 4 separate groups for wound allocation
1 w/both
3 w/just whips
1 w/just pistol
1 w/nothing
I think that adding 1 more pistol to the group would be a great addition, but it is a low priority (point-wise).
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
You cannot take both.
Phrasing of codex reads "any model may take one of the following"
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Anpu-adom wrote:I doubt that Crypteks and Court Lords will get FAQ'ed to gain the USR's that the troops they join get. There is no doubt that it would seriously improve Deathmarks and Praetorians, but it won't happen.
Yes I second this, I don't think they had any intention of being able to join these types of units or I believe there would have been a Lord/Cryptek 'jetpack/jumppack' upgrade option thrown in there.
And Fox is right, Wraiths can only have 1 of any weapon upgrade. The pistols are actually decent for the cost, a pair will almost certainly inflict a wound pre-assault on T4 so they aren't to be written off.
44333
Post by: junk
Oh wow, didn't catch that; In which case, 3/2 for 3 wound groups or just 3/3 or 4/2; I don't really ever see a reason to arm them with beamers.
50302
Post by: shadzinator
Still don't see you ever needing more than three whips. with 2 you can get most of an assult unit at I1, and whats left won't be in base to base with much anyway. When i finally get some wraiths, im planning on running 2/2/2. that way the wound allocation groups are even.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Sectiplave wrote:WanderingFox wrote: Though I suppose the wound allocation is a valid counter-argument to that. Has anyone done the math yet to figure out just how much more durable having 2 allocation groups makes them?
If possible you could create 3 allocation groups with Wraith wargear, coils, pistols , and standard. I'm terrible at getting solid math in writing to show the difference between the two. But it should be a noticeable boost to their resilience over the course of a game. My issue with running max coils is you need to ensure they are all utilized often to get the points cost back. Generally three 40mm bases should be able to B2B a decent amount of the enemy squad with some finesse, of course huge squads like Nids and Orks would leave you wanting more coils, but in a take all comers list I think it's too many points invested in equipment that could almost become another Wraith squad.
My vote is on dropping Imotek for a destroyer lord, with some mindshackles you have a squad of wraiths that can actually go head to head with elite combat units if it is really required, or ensure a crushing blow against vehicles, you would have to drop a LanceTek though, and pay for a solar pulse to assist you slogging it out while still at a distance from your enemy.
junk wrote:
In the mean time, what is the best compromise we can come up with for a Scythe-free WW?
I guess the non Night scythe alternative for our lists is large groups of tesla immortals foot slogging it? It sounds restrictive and I think it would really slow down the army over all meaning the fire support for the Wraiths isn't in place like it is with 3 fast skimmers. This would end up being fairly similar to WanderingFox's list, I'm not sure if I am personally happy with large amounts of foot slogging restrictions for a Wraith Wing if you intend to play offensively.
been following this thread for a while and factoring the sage like advice into my list building.... While not optimal, I've had some success with this non NS based list.
Overlord w/ res orb - warscythe - gauntlet of fire
Dlord - shackles
Hod with pulse in immortal group 1 with lord
Hod with immortal group 2
Hod with immortal group 3
Hot with crucible with immortal group 3
2x stalkers
2 x 5 man wraith squads
- 4 x whip coils
- 2 x pistols
7 x scarabs
2 x annihilation barges
The whole army would have to stick together to take advantage of the stalker twin linking and provide saturation but general plan being to roll up the center with the scarabs and wraiths leading and the rest cleaning up. Not too sure about the stalkers or the scarabs.......
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
shadzinator wrote:Still don't see you ever needing more than three whips. with 2 you can get most of an assult unit at I1, and whats left won't be in base to base with much anyway. When i finally get some wraiths, im planning on running 2/2/2. that way the wound allocation groups are even.
Sure if you're fighting 10 man or smaller units... 30 boys are not all going to go at I1... Nor is a pack of genestealers... or a nob squad... etc.
Anyway, plaeyed a 1500pt variant of the list against nids just now and it worked reasonably well. Ended up losing due to poor timing of an assult ending (allowed him an extra 6 inch consolidate to contest an objective), but other than that I'm reasonably satisfied with their performance. Some tweaks definitely, but it's a solid strategy.
1567
Post by: felixcat
Assuming you decided to run a list like this ....
+++WraithWing+++
DLord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs 145
DLord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs 145
5 Warriors, Ghost Ark 180
5 Warriors, Ghost Ark 180
5 Warriors, Night Scythe 165
5 Warriors, Night Scythe 165
5 Canoptek Wraiths, 3 Whip Coils, 1 Particle Caster 210
5 Canoptek Wraiths, 3 Whip Coils, 1 Particle Caster 210
3 Heavy Destroyers, Heavy Gauss Cannon 180
Annihilation Barge, Gauss Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge, Gauss Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge, Gauss Cannon 90
+++1850+++
We have some AT here. Warscythe Dlords and even rending wraiths can do some damage. Heavy gauss in for ranged AT will help. We also have a lot of warrior gauss shots a turn that can glance vehicles.
So ideas on how you would field this?
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Needs more wraiths. I'd say at least 10, 12 is better.
17% of the points on wraiths makes it hard to call a wraithwing.
What about running bigger squads with the scythe?
It holds 15 guys, what about running a squad of 15?
-Matt
1567
Post by: felixcat
There really is no excess upgrades in the list if you go dual Lords. Four Wraiths and a Lord should handle about anything out there and you can double team. You could drop the Stalker for four more Wraiths if you wanted to, I suppose. Still doesn't answer my questions though.
43588
Post by: Anpu-adom
Felixcat,
You would have 6 groups that could deepstrike,
The 2 groups of warriors in the Nightscythes
The 2 Wraith/D.Lord Squads
The group of Heavy Destroyers
And the Monolith
I know that I want both wraith/D.Lord Squads on the table at the same time to force my enemy to divide his fire. I also want the Heavy Destroyers on the table providing cover fire, but they might not be needed on the very first turn. Deep Striking the Monolith seems... risky (until deepstrike changes made in 6th?)
I would plan on reserving the Ghost Ark every game. I might also reserve the Heavy Destroyers and pull them from reserves through the monolith on turn 2, if I'm going second, but If I'm going first I want them on the table.
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
Its worth noting that wraiths don't have deep strike, so the only way they're deepstriking in is from a monolith portal.
1567
Post by: felixcat
So I edited the list top make it a true ( 10 wraiths now, lol) Wraithwing. It's an in your face list with five AV13 vehicles fronting those Wraiths. Haven't really lost much either. Still plenty of AT and anti-infantry.
43588
Post by: Anpu-adom
WanderingFox wrote:Its worth noting that wraiths don't have deep strike, so the only way they're deepstriking in is from a monolith portal.
I thought that Wraiths got Deep Strike because their are Jump Infantry. I'm new, so I could very well be wrong there. felixcat wrote:So I edited the list top make it a true ( 10 wraiths now, lol) Wraithwing. It's an in your face list with five AV13 vehicles fronting those Wraiths. Haven't really lost much either. Still plenty of AT and anti-infantry.
Assuming you decided to run a list like this ....
+++WraithWing+++
DLord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs 145
DLord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs 145
5 Warriors, Ghost Ark 180
5 Warriors, Ghost Ark 180
5 Warriors, Night Scythe 165
5 Warriors, Night Scythe 165
5 Canoptek Wraiths, 3 Whip Coils, 1 Particle Caster 210
5 Canoptek Wraiths, 3 Whip Coils, 1 Particle Caster 210
3 Heavy Destroyers, Heavy Gauss Cannon 180
Annihilation Barge, Gauss Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge, Gauss Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge, Gauss Cannon 90
+++1850+++
We have some AT here. Warscythe Dlords and even rending wraiths can do some damage. Heavy gauss in for ranged AT will help. We also have a lot of warrior gauss shots a turn that can glance vehicles.
So ideas on how you would field this?
I like your list a lot! Now we just have to have GW give us the models so we can build it without proxies! (That, and I need another $400 for all the models in the list I don't have!)
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
I think your list Felixcat looks solid, the entire army is capable of moving 12" if required so the Wraiths can and will be supported. The one part I would look into changing is the dual Destroyer Lords. While on the subject of these guys, I find that I at times need to break them apart as the destroyer lord negates Wraithflight while attached to the squad, just something to think about tactic's wise.
The alternative is removing one of the D.Lords, and also dropping a Ghost Ark. With the collective points then picking up an overlord/Anrakyr in CCB, he can charge the field with the Wraiths and give your enemy a large spread of priority targets. As it was pointed out in my first list, for the Ghost Arks to really be worth their points, they need to be making use of the Repair Barge rule.
For deployment for your list I would have the Wraiths and Lords on the table from the start, they could be screened by the Arks. Destroyers and Barges can bring up the rear and halt as soon as they are in effective range. While the NS bring up along the flanks or generally do as they please with such large movement options.
WanderingFox wrote:Its worth noting that wraiths don't have deep strike, so the only way they're deepstriking in is from a monolith portal.
They are jump infantry, and this grants them the Deep Strike USR. It's something I did not know about until recently, it's listed under the jump infantry entry in the 40K rule book. Tactic's wise you really need all Wraiths and lord(s) turning up within 2 turns maximum, this is something I will be interested to test, as out having Zahndrekh in my list makes it more reliable.
ROAR! I just realized that in all my lists I was over costing Wraiths by 5 points, I thought they cost the same as LychGuard per model for some reason? I now have 60 points to play with, do I drop a single wraith from the squad that will be teamed up with the D.lord and add a third barge, or should I attempt to run a 4 pack of scarabs to fill the gap?
New A list;
Zahndrekh & Des.Lord+scarabs
1x TransmogTek+Harp 1x DestrucTek+pulse 1x DestrucTek+Gaze 2x DestrucTek
3x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
6 Wraith+3 coils, 3 pistols (Only two allocation groups now)
5 Wraith+3 coils, 2 pistols (D.Lord joins this unit)
3x Annihilation Barge
@1850 (correctly costed this time, triple checked against codex costs)
35241
Post by: HawaiiMatt
Sectiplave wrote:
New A list;
Zahndrekh & Des.Lord+scarabs
1x TransmogTek+Harp 1x DestrucTek+pulse 1x DestrucTek+Gaze 2x DestrucTek
3x5 Tesla-Immortal in NS
6 Wraith+3 coils, 3 pistols (Only two allocation groups now)
5 Wraith+3 coils, 2 pistols (D.Lord joins this unit)
3x Annihilation Barge
@1850 (correctly costed this time, triple checked against codex costs)
I like it!
6 Telsa cannons + a decent lance group and 11 wraiths.
3 small scoring units is a problem. Given the option, I'd push for going 2nd, so you can rush in immortals late in the game with less chance of return fire. Pulse screens from alpha strike.
-Matt
44333
Post by: junk
Given the option, I'd push for going 2nd, so you can rush in immortals late in the game with less chance of return fire. Pulse screens from alpha strike.
-Matt
Alright, applause here for getting back on the subject of tactics. List building and tweaking is fun and all. Lets worry about that later, and talk about the tactics of using a wraith wing.
Aggression Vs. Ninjitsu, or Gorilla Vs. Guerrilla
It seems like there are two lists that are dominating these discussions,
an alpha-strike oriented list featuring aggressive CC HQs or sneakier lists involving defensive/utility HQs.
Great, that's enough information about the lists to start talking about how these lists are supposed to work.
For the sake of simplicity there are army types we need to measure up against
Hordes (orc, footdar, foot IG, full force org lists, Nids)
Assault/Elite/Deathstar (Draigowing, Seer Councils, Mephiston, Daemons)
Long range combat lists/Mech (Kopach, Tau, Mechdar, Venomspam)
So how does the wraithwing engage them in standard missions?
Lets start with this: How does a Wraith Wing handle Green Tide?
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
junk wrote:Lets start with this: How does a Wraith Wing handle Green Tide?
Green tide would be one of the lists that I think I would actually play defensively against, they are likely going to be running straight towards you, and the raw number of attacks they have in combat isn't really somewhere that the Wraiths want to be until you've done your best to whittle the numbers more in your favor. Generally we will have the mobility advantage, and should be able to kite them and reduce their numbers via Tesla spam. My number one priority would be a defensive deployment followed by doing anything possible to stun/immobilize any transport vehicles they are using.
If they are also running the ever popular Killa Kan tarpit unit, it only takes a single immobilized result to make it a unit that you can completely ignore for the remainder of the game, but they would be secondary on the priority list to Battlewagons and Ork Trukks, these NEED to be stunned or immobilized before you can really start diverting any attention to the Koptas, Kans or other such units that are really just a distraction. I've only faced Orks 3 times previously using my Salamanders, but I think the experience applies as they are a elite 24" ranged army with hard hitting assault units so some vague similarities can be drawn here.
44333
Post by: junk
Sound reasoning. I think that keeping those annihilation barges firing every turn is a necessity; meanwhile HQs who will be relatively easy for a horde to consume will have to be used as flankers to wreck vehicles. If night scythes are employed, i'd probably advocate keeping them empty and keeping immortals on the field for more tesla shooting. I'd also say deploy forward but in a castle formation and use strategic withdrawl to keep the enemy within a firing solution.
What about the opposite army? DraigoWing?
Getting into close combat plays to it's strengths, and they are just as 24" capable as we are.
Or Tau? Tau, while not considered necessarily competitive, has all the tools to take apart the wraithwing. Armor 13 vehicles are no issue for them, and they are just as mobile with their jetpacks and 24-48" range. We don't have outflankers to speak of, so those broadsides are also a problem. Ideas?
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
Harbinger of Destruction w/ VoD & Abyssal Staff + Deathmarks. Mark the Broadsides with Hunters From Hyperspace, then wipe them out. 5 Deathmarks with a Cryptek should be able to wipe out a 3-suit squad in one round of shooting.
The whole unit only costs 155 points, so it should be easy enough to fit into the army list. Nowadays, I don't ever leave home without two units like this.
44333
Post by: junk
Without the cryptek, you can get them in range, but 95 points means 10 (rapid fire) shots against 2+ (potentially 4++) and possible ablative wounds (drones). If they enter this way, they can't then assault to tie up the broadsides in CC. With the cryptek you're using VoD, which has a 24" range, and no movement phase, so you need to deep strike really close in order to cover them with that template.
Broadsides against a list with no outflankers are usually deployed on top of terrain close to a board edge; which is a lot of mishap potential once you factor everything in. It's pretty much limited to a 33% chance of working out the way you want it to, which is a bit too much of a gamble to be a reliable tactic.
What about Deep Striking Night Scythes though? Filled with immortals, they don't need to be so dangerously close to the broadsides - disembark and use a torrent of tesla fire to lay some wounds on them, hopefully enough to force a morale check? It also gets immortals into Tau back ranks, allowing you to box in the army.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
I don't think an army full of 3++ saves is well balanced. It will do great against armies that dump out a lot of power weapon attacks, but it will have problems dealing with armies that can dish out a lot of crap AP wounds. 600+ points out of 1850 points on wraiths will make the list powerful against some opponents, but there are a lot of lists I think it will have problems with.
44333
Post by: junk
schadenfreude wrote:I don't think an army full of 3++ saves is well balanced. It will do great against armies that dump out a lot of power weapon attacks, but it will have problems dealing with armies that can dish out a lot of crap AP wounds. 600+ points out of 1850 points on wraiths will make the list powerful against some opponents, but there are a lot of lists I think it will have problems with.
Please, go on. Like what? And how do you suggest we deal with it?
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Schadenfreude is right here. An excessive amount of 3++ models who can dish out some wounds in cc leads to an unbalanced list that can deal with some but not all opponents. Mech Eldar will try to stay away from Wraiths in the first place, shooting them and eventually charge them (Council) when they get close. Large Ork mobz will laugh about Wraiths no matter how may you will throw against them.
44333
Post by: junk
Alright, well, I think that Hordes will definitely present a problem, the tesla destructors will be really important there. I don't know how much more firepower we can shove in there.
As far as seer council, I'd say it goes both ways. In order to avoid wraiths, vehicles will have to move farther than 12" which ties them up just as effectively - while necron shooting is unimpeded.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Well, a mech Eldar list cannot avoid Wraiths completely. It needs to bring the fire power to bear to take on the most serious threats. A Council can certainly tie up Wraiths for a while and can eventually come on top (depending on several factors like size, who got the charge, luck, etc.).
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
junk wrote:schadenfreude wrote:I don't think an army full of 3++ saves is well balanced. It will do great against armies that dump out a lot of power weapon attacks, but it will have problems dealing with armies that can dish out a lot of crap AP wounds. 600+ points out of 1850 points on wraiths will make the list powerful against some opponents, but there are a lot of lists I think it will have problems with.
Please, go on. Like what? And how do you suggest we deal with it?
In a tournament setting it's not so bad because many of the most common lists are the ones wraithwing would do well against. The most common opponent I would be worried about is dark eldar. The entire army is fast and dynamic so there would be no speed advantage, and the DE would have superior long ranged firepower. The venoms would be a difficult to deal with threat to the wraiths that dump out 12 shots/8hits/4 wounds per turn. Doesn't sound like much at first, until it's multiplied by 6 venoms to =24 wounds per turn=8 failed saves per turn=4 dead wraiths per turn. 100 points of Wyches can charge and tarpit 200 points of wraiths.
Other lists would be horde lists such as greentide, nids, foot IG, or a BA blood rodeo ( DoA with scout bikes instead of VV). None of them are common in the current meta, but I could see them tripping up a wraithwing list.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Other lists would be horde lists such as greentide, nids, foot IG, or a BA blood rodeo (DoA with scout bikes instead of VV). None of them are common in the current meta, but I could see them tripping up a wraithwing list.
A GK army will also be hard for a Wraithwing to deal with. In cc, if some GKs hit first (not being in btb contact with Wraiths having whip coils), they could instantly kill some Wraiths.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
schadenfreude wrote:In a tournament setting it's not so bad because many of the most common lists are the ones wraithwing would do well against. The most common opponent I would be worried about is dark eldar.
Yeah I don't see the Wraith Wing as truly a take all comers list. But if it is able to compete with most of the common tournament lists I am more than happy with that. My idea of viability is that you can sit down to 80%+ of your match ups and think, yes I have the tools to get the job done.
I've found Wraiths lead by a Mindshackle destroyer lord are an amazing tool against most Nid armies. This is as they are currently fairly heavy on deep striking and monstrous creatures, this isn't going to change unless there is a FAQ changing the ruling of Mindshackle Scarabs making single model units attack themselves. If it was a horde Nid army then it starts to get harder as you need to rely on massed Tesla fire.
Slightly back on the tactic's subject I would run the Empty Night Scythes on the board from the start against foot hordes and force the immortals to walk. I've faced foot IG once before, and it really isn't a nice match up for many elite armies having to face 150 or so models that can shoot at decent range.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Wraiths can be run down by swarms of 5 point gaunts.
Paroxism +FC + Poison is enough for decked out gargoyles or gaunts within range of a tervigon's fc/poison attack bubble to take out a unit of wraiths.
2 small broods totaling 18 gaunts.... 6 gaunts make base to base with a whip coil, 12 base either base to base a non whip coil wraith or are within 2".
12 termagants go at I5 WS3 S4 poison attacks versus WS1 T4 here goes.... 24 attacks, 16 hits, 12 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds on the wraiths, 2 wraith die
3 wraiths swing 9 attacks 3 hits 2.5 wounds 2.08 unsaved wounds, and average of 2 gaunts die. Wounds are allocated on the gaunts that have already attacked at I5
6 termagaunts go at I1 WS3 S4 poison attacks versus WS1 T4 here goes.... 12 attacks, 8 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds, 1 wraith dies.
Combat resolution gaunts scored 6 wounds wraiths 2 wounds, wraiths make a leadership test on LD6 if they fail the gaunts will run them down. Mathhammer just showed how 90 points of gaunts can tear down 200+ points of wraiths. While the wraiths have speed over the gaunts the gaunts are so numerous if the wraiths charge just about anything they risk being overun by gaunts on the next turn.
Mathhammer would be even worse if they were within preferred enemy range of a hive tyrant and/or gargoyles were doing the attack with blinding poison.
51131
Post by: Dytalus
Wraiths are fearless, they'd suffer No Retreat wounds and can't be run down.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Yes that is a nasty match up, I've personally not seen a single Tyranid player using Gargoyles yet. As the Necron player I would try to use Wraithflight/Jumppacks to avoid gaunts, and open up with some Tesla spam to reduce the numbers. Wraiths want to avoid horde units until you can reduce them to a manageable size and ensure you get the charge.
Those Gaunts/Gargoyles have some supporting units, so how would 5 wraiths do if they had a destroyer lord and got the charge, having an unimpeded 12" movement should have them getting the charge more often than not, but as with all 40K it's the finesse in the movement phase that is soo critical.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Sectiplave wrote:Yes that is a nasty match up, I've personally not seen a single Tyranid player using Gargoyles yet. As the Necron player I would try to use Wraithflight/Jumppacks to avoid gaunts, and open up with some Tesla spam to reduce the numbers. Wraiths want to avoid horde units until you can reduce them to a manageable size and ensure you get the charge.
Those Gaunts/Gargoyles have some supporting units, so how would 5 wraiths do if they had a destroyer lord and got the charge?
Wraiths would wipe out a unit of gaunts that they charged, and then eat a paroxism and get counter charged and swarmed the next turn.
Forgot about fearless, That would help the wraiths a lot, but I just don't see them doing anything productive against tyranid hordes once they eat a paroxism.
A Tyranid horde list could very well have 90 gaunts starting on the table + 3 poison/adrenal gland tervigons pooping out more for less than 1,000 points. Add a bunch of hive guard and a tryants or 2 for your typical horde list.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
I'm not seeing horde Ork/Tyranid lists over here, I guess it's due to the popularity of IG, as they can really rail on horde lists.
Much like Ork hordes, the Wraith Wing could whittle down a unit with Tesla fire and mop them up with the Wraiths, but the follow up is then getting counter charged by another 20 boys/gaunts plus supporting units and get swamped by the number of dice. In these situations I would have to resort to using the Wraiths as a road block while I do my best with the barges and scythes. There isn't a hell of a lot this list can do about it, so this would be one of the most feared match ups I would say.
44333
Post by: junk
I'm really looking forward to some of my matches next week, I've got scheduled matches with SW, VSM, Nid, ork, and Daemon players before christmas. The Nid player runs a 3-4 tervigon list; the daemon player is all about Heralds, the VSM player is a drop pod/kantor lunatic, the wolves play a pretty standard competitive list, and the orks are a massive horde.
I've also got my own GK, CSM, and Tau armies, so I'll see if one of my friends can pilot those against me.
The nids and orks are definitely the match ups I'm most apprehensive about; because I'd be leaning heavily on 4-5 tesla destructors and 25 tesla blasters, using wraiths and HQs in lopsided assaults; if those end up being objective games, I don't know if WW has a chance.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
Honestly, I think you'll have the most difficulty against Green Tide, particularly in objective games. I just envision the Wraiths being overrun. ...maybe holding them back in order to deepstrike into play once the waves of Boyz are out of the deployment zone, and hoping the massed Tesla will be enough to thin the numbers out, and then drop the Wraiths into the backfield? I might even consider swapping out two Annihilation Barges for a single Doomsday Ark, just to wipe out chunks of Boyz at a time. As for Tau, I'd still go for the Deathmarks-VoD into template range. But that's just me, and I tend to use VoD in places where it's bat  -insane. It lends an element of surprise to the battle. You're right, you won't be able to assault, but you shouldn't need to. The template should net you 3 to 5 wounds, and the 10x RF shots should net you another 7. That should definitely be enough to force a morale check, at least.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
schadenfreude wrote:
Wraiths can be run down by swarms of 5 point gaunts.
Paroxism +FC + Poison is enough for decked out gargoyles or gaunts within range of a tervigon's fc/poison attack bubble to take out a unit of wraiths.
2 small broods totaling 18 gaunts.... 6 gaunts make base to base with a whip coil, 12 base either base to base a non whip coil wraith or are within 2".
12 termagants go at I5 WS3 S4 poison attacks versus WS1 T4 here goes.... 24 attacks, 16 hits, 12 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds on the wraiths, 2 wraith die
3 wraiths swing 9 attacks 3 hits 2.5 wounds 2.08 unsaved wounds, and average of 2 gaunts die. Wounds are allocated on the gaunts that have already attacked at I5
6 termagaunts go at I1 WS3 S4 poison attacks versus WS1 T4 here goes.... 12 attacks, 8 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds, 1 wraith dies.
Combat resolution gaunts scored 6 wounds wraiths 2 wounds, wraiths make a leadership test on LD6 if they fail the gaunts will run them down. Mathhammer just showed how 90 points of gaunts can tear down 200+ points of wraiths. While the wraiths have speed over the gaunts the gaunts are so numerous if the wraiths charge just about anything they risk being overun by gaunts on the next turn.
Mathhammer would be even worse if they were within preferred enemy range of a hive tyrant and/or gargoyles were doing the attack with blinding poison.
Vs 'nids, to 'eat a paroxysm' means that you've started your turn within 18" of a hive tyrant (24" if he has wings) that hasn't been killed as a priority target. Given the fact that a hive tyrant only has 4 wounds and no invulnerable save, it shouldn't survive enough shooting phases to 'paroxysm' a wraith squad. In fact, it is a prime target for wraiths with whip coils because s6 and rending with a 3++ save is a pretty good counter to a s6 t6 monstrous creature. Also, a '90 point gaunt squad' that just obliterated a 200 point wraith squad was NOT 90 points. just for the adrenal glands and toxin sacs alone it would cost 126 points. If instead they had gotten buffs from a tervigon add at minimum 180 points (totaling 270). that paroxysm that the wraiths 'ate? it wasn't free, in fact it came on a very expensive monstrous creature. Add 170 points, bare minimum. So, now that you look at the actual facts, you have no fewer than 296 points dealing with 200 points of models in a situation that from the pretense offered favored the nids greatly. Don't put forth situations that are biased and claim they are not. It misleads other players who might not necessarily know everything about the armies in question.[
23077
Post by: Widowsbane
I just found this thread and found it rather interesting as I am building a version of wraith wing army myself and here is my take on it...on a side note, for a lack of models I am just using warhammer sepulchral stalkers as wraiths and the FW tomb stalker as my triarch stalkers. I know that the tomb stalkers do not match codex art but they are bad mofo models. Anyway here is my list.....
HQ
Stormy
Elite
2x tri-arch stalkers with the heat ray
Fast Attack
3x 4 wraiths...(one reg., one with coils, 2 with particle casters)
Heavy
3x Annihilation Barge
Troops
10 immortals
5 warriors (reserve)
9 warriors
8 warriors
Ghost Ark (which will support the 8 and 9 man warrior squads and keep their numbers up or move one of them for late game objective taking)
This is the list I will be using and the only current variation I am looking at is losing a squad of wraiths for 9 scarab bases and 2 extra warriors...
Just thought I would throw my two cents into the conversation...thanks...
50302
Post by: shadzinator
My 1500 wraith wing is as follows:
Dlord, Scarabs + Weave
10 Warriors
-Ghost Arc
8 Warriors
3*6 Wraiths (2whips, 2 pistols)
3 Annihilation Barges
To bring it to 1850, I'd probably add Overlord warscythe in a CCB to remove rear AV14, and top up on more warriors.
Just wondering, since jump infantry and wraithflight, can wraiths deepstrike into terrain without fear or mishaps? from my interpretation it sounds fine, and denying the enemy a chance to see them the turn they arrive would be vital.
I think the one thing that hurts a wraithwing competitively is the number of S8 anti-tank and the lack of tanks to shoot in a wraithwing. Guess where all those long fangs are now pointing?
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
shadzinator wrote:Just wondering, since jump infantry and wraithflight, can wraiths deepstrike into terrain without fear or mishaps? from my interpretation it sounds fine, and denying the enemy a chance to see them the turn they arrive would be vital.
It really depends if you count Deep Strike mishap as a terrain test. I would argue that it is not specifically a terrain test, it is just something that is cause by terrain. But I imagine with will come up in a FAQ.
My Wraith Wing includes a solar pulse for first turn protection, but even still I think the Barges will take priority for long range S8 spam initially, it depends on enemy target priority but as an opponent I would take them out first and use my dedicated combat unit to try counter-charge the Wraiths.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
Sectiplave wrote:shadzinator wrote:Just wondering, since jump infantry and wraithflight, can wraiths deepstrike into terrain without fear or mishaps? from my interpretation it sounds fine, and denying the enemy a chance to see them the turn they arrive would be vital.
It really depends if you count Deep Strike mishap as a terrain test. I would argue that it is not specifically a terrain test, it is just something that is cause by terrain. But I imagine with will come up in a FAQ.
My Wraith Wing includes a solar pulse for first turn protection, but even still I think the Barges will take priority for long range S8 spam initially, it depends on enemy target priority but as an opponent I would take them out first and use my dedicated combat unit to try counter-charge the Wraiths.
Deep striking into area terrain is not a mishap. It causes a dangerous terrain test (which wraiths auto-pass thanks to wraithflight).
Why do so many people think that deep striking into area terrain causes a mishap? That is not the case at all... Mishaps only occur when you deep strike on top of an enemy unit, off the board, or onto impassible terrain.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
tetrisphreak wrote: Why do so many people think that deep striking into area terrain causes a mishap? That is not the case at all... Mishaps only occur when you deep strike on top of an enemy unit, off the board, or onto impassible terrain.
Was there anything like this in 4th Ed? I was taught to play by a 3/4th edition player, recently I've actually had to correct him on a few things he has been doing the 'old school' way, this is probably one of them.
But yes you are totally right about DS into terrain, a very useful tactic for Wraiths. Depending on my opponents list and deployment I would indeed keep them in reserve to deep strike and use Zahndrekh's ability to get them on the board quickly where I want them.
17279
Post by: Irdiumstern
Sectiplave wrote:
Was there anything like this in 4th Ed? I was taught to play by a 3/4th edition player, recently I've actually had to correct him on a few things he has been doing the 'old school' way, this is probably one of them.
But yes you are totally right about DS into terrain, a very useful tactic for Wraiths. Depending on my opponents list and deployment I would indeed keep them in reserve to deep strike and use Zahndrekh's ability to get them on the board quickly where I want them.
I'm pretty sure area terrain did cause a mishap in 3rd, but it's been a while.
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
Anpu-adom wrote:WanderingFox wrote:Its worth noting that wraiths don't have deep strike, so the only way they're deepstriking in is from a monolith portal.
I thought that Wraiths got Deep Strike because their are Jump Infantry. I'm new, so I could very well be wrong there
That,,, is entirely true. I stand corrected. All the armies i've played have older codexes that list the deep strike rule explicitly. my bad
1567
Post by: felixcat
Out of curiosity has anyone tested a C'Tan in a WraithWing list? I'm thinking of adding in a Time's Arrow C'Tan just to see how it does. It can hide behind Barges and Arks as it moves forward. I've not had bad luck in the pst even with DE poison out there. If you present enough targets he isn't usually priority one.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
I haven't tested out the C'tan shard yet, this is mainly as I was skeptical of how well they survive with a 4+/4++ while being vulnerable to S4, once you add a pair of powers, the cost is high for a singular MC, if he is made a priority target that is a fairly large chunk of points that has not earned it's cost.
Times arrow plus whip coils, yes this does sound good as an assassination combo, I just feel the C'tan even while ignoring terrain tests due to 'Immune to Natural Law' is going to hinder the wraiths movement to get this combo to work, this gives time for your opponent to wise on to what you are about to try, I can't help but feel it's a bit of a gimmick that people will recognize before long and make it a priority to stop.
I'm all for battle testing it and seeing how a shard goes, what would be your second power if you do try Assassin's Arrow and why? Personally I'd like to test out Grand Illusion paired with Zahndrekh for deployment baiting and then deepstriking elsewhere.
1567
Post by: felixcat
If I'm using a cc C'Tan Shard - which I think is the way to go - then Gaze of Death/Time's Arrow at 275 points. That's Landraider points there. The few times I've seen C'Tan used they have aleays made it into battle. If you play barges, arks and wraiths, the C'tan must be ignored for few turns. Why would you prioritize it and get run over by everything else? That's time enough to get into cc especially with a pulse.
19445
Post by: Warboss Gutrip
felixcat wrote:If I'm using a cc C'Tan Shard - which I think is the way to go - then Gaze of Death/Time's Arrow at 275 points. That's Landraider points there. The few times I've seen C'Tan used they have aleays made it into battle. If you play barges, arks and wraiths, the C'tan must be ignored for few turns. Why would you prioritize it and get run over by everything else? That's time enough to get into cc especially with a pulse.
The problem is, basically, Venomspam.
Any Dark Eldar player will happily shoot two Venoms to kill your C'tan, whilst channeling Dark Lance fire into your vehicles. As one of two foot targets (Wraiths - maybe multiple units or C'tan), the C'tan is really just an easy KP. And like you said, Landraider in points dead to two Venoms does not a happy necron make...
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Yeah that is the survivability issue that I have with the C'tan shards, Dark Eldar have become a fairly popular army and I'm seeing a few of them showing up at tournaments these days.
Nid's are also able to swarm him with poisoned attacks too which they just will not reasonably survive. I can't shake the feeling it's not a reliable tactic and has too many points invested for it to go wrong. It further reduces the ability of the wraith wing to be a take all comers army.
44333
Post by: junk
I don't really know what to do with C'tans. I feel like those points are just better used to bring more guns to the fight. They should have priced it closer to the Avatar of Khaine or Daemon Princes, or given it some movement options. it's too expensive for how ineffective it can be. Writhing Worldscape and Grand Illusion look to be the only powers which justify the points spent; and of the two, only Worldscape has an ongoing effect. I do like 'singulariy' and lord of fire; but I don't know if I like them enough to sink the points into the model.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
Vs Any other armies but DE and nids with poison (which, granted, can be more easily avoided than shooting poison splinter cannons) the c'tan's survivability is far greater. Also with deep striking monoliths, a c'tan can be held in reserve, hidden, and ported through a 'lith after it hits the table to get it into the wheel house of close combat. In the meanwhile venoms are target priority #1 with ravagers at a very close #2. Once they're knocked out the c'tan can run rampant through the enemy lines.
However all that having been said, If i expect a dark eldar opponent i'll find somewhere else to spend 250 points than a c'tan. If i'm going to a tournament where i'm not sure on which opponents i'll see, I might risk the expenditure. Remember, a land raider is a good unit vs everyone but dark eldar, too.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
tetrisphreak wrote:. Also with deep striking monoliths, a c'tan can be held in reserve, hidden, and ported through a 'lith after it hits the table to get it into the wheel house of close combat.
I think slotting one into a more general Necron list is possible, but I don't see any room or real tactical advantage for a Monolith in a Wraith Wing list over all.
37493
Post by: Over 9000!
Here's my try.
Being a footlist it's immune to anti-tank weps because, well there are no tanks. It's got +80 models, pretty good for crons.
Flayed ones are pretty meh normally but I think they synergies well with the whip coils as I2 is really their biggest weakness. They also make good infiltrating screens/distractions. Also peep how much rending it has. I like rending.
I went with tesla because hopefully the mass immortals will be behind everything else and not really bothered with all the much more immediate threats infront of them. Tesla gets better the more shots fired.
Here goes
Hq-250
Destroyer Lord-125
Destroyer Lord-125
Troops-680
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x5 Immortals, tesla-85
Fast-720
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
Elites-
x10 Flayed One-130
x10 Flayed One-130
total-1995
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're bringing a C'tan with times arrow, which is a pretty cool combo I'd never thought of, why would you take gaze? that's way too much points. Take the stealth one. Quite cheap, comes with assault grenades and improves survivability greatly.
47310
Post by: WanderingFox
Flayed ones are useless, doubly so without imotekh
43588
Post by: Anpu-adom
Over 9000! wrote:Here's my try.
Being a footlist it's immune to anti-tank weps because, well there are no tanks. It's got +80 models, pretty good for crons.
Flayed ones are pretty meh normally but I think they synergies well with the whip coils as I2 is really their biggest weakness. They also make good infiltrating screens/distractions. Also peep how much rending it has. I like rending.
I went with tesla because hopefully the mass immortals will be behind everything else and not really bothered with all the much more immediate threats infront of them. Tesla gets better the more shots fired.
Here goes
Hq-250
Destroyer Lord-125
Destroyer Lord-125
Troops-680
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x10 Immortals, tesla-170
x5 Immortals, tesla-85
Fast-720
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
Elites-
x10 Flayed One-130
x10 Flayed One-130
total-1995
WanderingFox wrote:Flayed ones are useless, doubly so without imotekh
I don't mind Flayed ones in this list. I think that they can serve a purpose. There is no doubt that Imotekh makes them better, but I don't think that you NEED him. The main problem I have with this list is very limited range on the guns. You don't have ANYTHING with AP or a range longer than 24". Yes, your Tesla Immortals have an effective range of 30", but they are going to have a hard time with any vehicles or assault marines that break away from your Wraithwing. To summarize, is taking 260 points of Flayed Ones better than taking 270 points of Annihilation Barges? Simply, no. I feel that the Barges support with Wraithwing better than the Flayed Ones. I might go 130 points of Flayed Ones and 180 points of Annihilation Barges. But of course, it's your list and army. Play it your way!
37493
Post by: Over 9000!
Anpu-adom wrote:
I don't mind Flayed ones in this list. I think that they can serve a purpose. There is no doubt that Imotekh makes them better, but I don't think that you NEED him.
The main problem I have with this list is very limited range on the guns. You don't have ANYTHING with AP or a range longer than 24". Yes, your Tesla Immortals have an effective range of 30", but they are going to have a hard time with any vehicles or assault marines that break away from your Wraithwing.
To summarize, is taking 260 points of Flayed Ones better than taking 270 points of Annihilation Barges? Simply, no. I feel that the Barges support with Wraithwing better than the Flayed Ones. I might go 130 points of Flayed Ones and 180 points of Annihilation Barges. But of course, it's your list and army. Play it your way!
You're right about the lack of ap. It is kind of worrying. If I took barges tho they'd be the only vehicles in the whole list and would be picked on mercilessly, never making it passed the 2nd turn tops. I like barges and they're a hellava bargain normally but value and survivability change drastically depending on what else is in the list. What I could do is take out a destroyer lord for an overlord with phearon and x5 lance crypteks. Or maybe a C'tan idk
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
Over 9000! wrote:I like barges and they're a hellava bargain normally but value and survivability change drastically depending on what else is in the list. What I could do is take out a destroyer lord for an overlord with phearon and x5 lance crypteks. Or maybe a C'tan idk
With the way entropic strike works currently, if you can afford it 4x lanceteks and 1xharptek is actually very effective.
The barges would be a huge target and would most likely get dropped after a turn or two, but that is some heat off your regular troops while you get into position also, I'd give it a shot with both configs and see which you like playing more.
44333
Post by: junk
The truth is, if you want that foot list to be stronger, replace the 3x6 wraiths with 3x10 scarabs or spam gauss.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
junk wrote:The truth is, if you want that foot list to be stronger, replace the 3x6 wraiths with 3x10 scarabs or spam gauss.
Yeah that's the cold hard truth of it really. The wraiths are very mobile which is why I am not happy with large amounts of foot troops and want a night scythe model badly. They are hindered by the rest of the list foot slogging, I think a Wraith Wing list needs Wraiths to the key unit with the rest of the list build around them to fill in the gaps and support them.
48228
Post by: lazarian
junk wrote:The truth is, if you want that foot list to be stronger, replace the 3x6 wraiths with 3x10 scarabs or spam gauss.
Eh, id go two units of wraiths, 1x 10 scarab unit and 9 spyders.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
lazarian wrote:junk wrote:The truth is, if you want that foot list to be stronger, replace the 3x6 wraiths with 3x10 scarabs or spam gauss.
Eh, id go two units of wraiths, 1x 10 scarab unit and 9 spyders.
He needs to drop more than just a Wraith squad to get 9 Spyders. Then he needs Imotek or pulse Crypteks so you have the cover to get the scarabs and spyders where they need to be. The moment you include 450 points minimum worth of spyders you are looking at a scarab farm list not a Wraith wing really.
If you were to run a Spyder+Wraith wing what would be your tactics for deployment and over all game plan? I'm not sure it's the same sort of list we have been looking at tactics for really.
44333
Post by: junk
Agree with Sectiplave, I don't mind fielding 12 wraiths and 10 scarabs in a wraithwing, but once you start dropping annihilation barges for spiders, you're better off just dropping out of the wraithwing build.
Wraiths need the fire support of the barges/scythes (or gauss filled or Royal arks) in order to be really effective; otherwise they're better off just relegated to a 1x6 support choice. Once you start investing in wraiths, You want to justify the expense by taking advantage of them.
Back on the subject of the WW; any thoughts on praetorians with VB/PC setups? It's an elite choice that matches the Range/Mobility of the wraiths and may provide a better home for a Rez-orb toting D.Lord - Three Entropic/Rending Attacks on the charge x 10 praetorians with 12" S6 Shooting attacks is a meaty t5 assault force.
Maybe in a 2000 point WW rather than an 1850, they are pretty expensive on top of 15-18 wraiths.
37493
Post by: Over 9000!
I like the ideas guys, I was toying with spyders as they're the only non-vehicle heavy in the book. But this isn't a scarab farm list and I don't want it to be. Then it hit me, how about ccb's? I think they'd synergies well with wraiths. I like this list because everything has a big shoot me sign on it so no matter what happens some killy stuff will get where it needs to be. Without the destroyer lords hopefully the wraiths will be shot at less. Here's draft two, I didn't like what the 2000 looked like so this is 2500
Hq-710
Overlord, warscythe-100
CCB-80
Overlord, warscythe-100
CCB-80
x5 Lancetecks-175
x5 Lancetecks-175
Troops-700
x5 Warriors-65
x5 Warriors-65
Ghost arc-115
Ghost arc-115
x10 Immortals-170
x10 Immortals-170
Fast-685
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x5 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
Elites-130
x10 Flayed One-130
Heavy-270
Annihilation Barge-90
Annihilation Barge-90
Annihilation Barge-90
2495
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
I don't understand where the 10x Lanceteks will go. You've only got 4x troops units.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
azazel the cat wrote:I don't understand where the 10x Lanceteks will go. You've only got 4x troops units.
Each Royal court starts off as it's own unit composed of the Crypteks and Lords that you choose to include, it is only optional that they split off to lead other units. I imagine he is running them as the stand alone Royal court units, with their range and assault weapon they can still foot slog it and start taking shots fairly early, you will want to move them into cover pretty quickly though.
Something I've noticed that has been tripping people up is that you can only actually send one person per royal court to lead another unit. So you cannot actually take a squad of 8 warriors and send two Crypteks or a Tek and Lord to that squad unless you have two royal courts and send one from each.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
Oh, that's his plan. In that case, it's a bad idea. Not splitting up the Royal Court is the best way to ensure your opponent marks them as a high priority target and focuses fire. Then yo're stuck with way too many points under heavy fire. And your own utility is decreased, because 6x Str 8 shots are better when they can be split up to hit multiple targets if need be.
Better to drop the number of Lanceteks down to 2x per troops unit. It'll also let you keep them alive longer, as 2x Laneteks and 5x Warriors means you need to take 5x wounds before your first Lancetek dies, whereas a Lancetek dies on the first wound in the Royal Court.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
azazel the cat wrote:Better to drop the number of Lanceteks down to 2x per troops unit. It'll also let you keep them alive longer, as 2x Laneteks and 5x Warriors means you need to take 5x wounds before your first Lancetek dies, whereas a Lancetek dies on the first wound in the Royal Court.
Yes I would agree with this especially in an 1850 list. Running a unit of T4, 4+ save, single wound expensive models is going to make for easy pickings.
Back on the a tactics topic, you could run the Cryptek squads into terrain and take advantage of their range while you push forward with the Barges, Arks Wraiths towards the enemy. This should hopefully push the Cryptek squad further down the priority list to give them time to put some hurt on vehicles where possible. I also agree with spamming 5 can be a bit wasteful for attempting something like popping a Rhino, so to synergise with the rest of the list you could drop one each to replace with a Harp equipped Transmogrification Cryptek, if they fail to destroy the target at least the AV is reduced for next turn or for Tesla spam to have a shot.
44333
Post by: junk
Can you prune that list down to 1850 or st least 2000 so it fits within the framework we're working with? 2500 points is a completely different meta bracket.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
I'm a huge fan of putting 2x Lanceteks ino every Troops unit, just because you also get the additional benefit of denying cover more often, because those Str 8 shots are coming from everywhere, rather than one select location. It also makes it harder for your opponent to hide the rear/side armour when he's surrounded by squads with Str 8 firepower.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've tried to prune down that massive 2500-point list as best I could. I think it's got a little long-range anti-tank to give it some options, and I just have trouble with the idea of running a Wraithwing in broad daylight. I just think that a lucky barrage template is too risky, so the nightfighting will give it at least one turn to close the distance. And I'm a big fan of wound allocation shenanigans with the Wraiths. Personally, I wouldn't use so many troops, but this is just my spin on that previous list. So how about this:
HQ ... points = 325
1x Overlord w/ Warscythe
1x Catacomb Command Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
1x Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe & Mindshackle Scarabs (Goes with unit of 5x Wraiths)
TROOPS ... points = 880
1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance & Solar Pulse
5x Warriors
1x Ghost Ark
1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
5x Warriors
1x Ghost Ark
1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
8x Immortals w/ Tesla Carbines
1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
7x Immortals w/ Tesla Carbines
FAST ATTACK ... points = 720
6x Canoptek Wraiths w/ x3 Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster & 1x Transdimensional Beamer
6x Canoptek Wraiths w/ x3 Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster & 1x Transdimenional Beamer
5x Canoptek Wraiths w/ x3 Whip Coils & 1x Particle Caster
HEAVY SUPPORT ... points = 270
1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon
TOTAL ... points = 2000 exactly
44333
Post by: junk
Alright. 17 wraiths, 2 CC HQs, 1 pulse, 4 lances, then the staple 3 barges. Tweaks and such come down to personal preferences.
My eye is immediately drawn to the troops.
2x5 warriors w/Arks
2x7.5 Tesla Immortals
This just bothers me because of the point distribution.
I get that you want 4 homes for your lances, but if you're running a ghost ark, you might be better off keeping your Royal Court as a self contained unit, sticking them in a ghost ark, and putting enough warriors running along side of it to take advantage of the ghost ark reconstruction mechanic.
I lean towards the belief that Night Scythes are the best complement for a wraith wing, as tesla destructor fire is pretty fantastic. I don't want to step on your list, because we're all still pretty green when it comes to the Newcrons; but my opinion is this:
2x10 immortals with night scythes is 540
and 10+ Warriors w/ghost ark is 245
Add your 4 lanceteks+Solar Pulse and you've got 945
Lose the 2 beamers and 1 wraith, and you're even, essentially trading 1 ghost ark and some wargear for 2 night scythes. Yes, you're down a scoring unit - but, and again, just an opinion, all the tesla destructor fire and extra mobility for your immortals is going to balance that out and give change.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
I don't mind losing the beamers, as I think they're garbage to begin with -I only included them for a greater wound allocation ability. And I certainly don't mind dropping the troops units down to 3, as I typically only use 3 Troops units in my own lists.
My apprehension comes from moving the Lanceteks to a single unit, simply because I like to have the Str 8 firepower spread out, so that it can't be easily targeted, so that it can hide in units (same idea as a hidden PF) and so that it can come from multiple angles.
Hrmm... Further revision is required...
EDIT: This is only in theory for me, btw- I'm a very hardcore proponent of gunline necrons.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
I ran something very similar last night against a venom spam DE list and found the NS to be worth it. I had min squads of immortals in them (points misspent elsewhere) but found the extra tesla shots and fast speed to be very useful.
Haven't tried the warrior blob with lance court in the ghost ark yet, for the same reason. I'd prefer to have 2 x more hulls on the field and 2 x units that can target differently.
Btw, wraiths did great against everything on the DE side, but that many lance shots and fast moving vehicles were tough.
How is everyone using the NS? I had 2 in reserve to come in and assist on weak sides (move, drop troops in cover, tesla something......then get shot down).
37493
Post by: Over 9000!
azazel the cat wrote:Better to drop the number of Lanceteks down to 2x per troops unit. It'll also let you keep them alive longer, as 2x Laneteks and 5x Warriors means you need to take 5x wounds before your first Lancetek dies, whereas a Lancetek dies on the first wound in the Royal Court.
The lancetecks are in the ghost arks Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the night scathe idea, list in a few Automatically Appended Next Post: Hq-640
Overlord, warscythe-100
CCB-80
Overlord, warscythe-100
CCB-80
x4 Lancetecks-140
x4 Lancetecks-140
Troops-673
x5 Warriors-65
x5 Warriors-65
x5 Warriors-65
x6 Warriors-78
Night Scythe-100
Night Scythe-100
Night Scythe-100
Night Scythe-100
Fast-685
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x5 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
total-1998
44333
Post by: junk
you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.
I like the alpha strike quality of that list. MSU Warriors/Scythe Spam - by the way, has anyone come up with a suitable conversion yet?
51389
Post by: Cpt Stubbs
37493
Post by: Over 9000!
junk wrote:you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.
I thought the same thing at first but correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to be on the board to use solar pulses, scythes have their occupants in reserves. You could nuke a scythe nd have one warrior squad footslogging with two pulses but that might hurt the list more then help. Not sure about that either
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
That is a gorgeous conversion model. And reasonably priced for custom work! What went into that? An Annihilation Barge and a Tau Pirhana?
Over 9000! wrote:junk wrote:you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.
I thought the same thing at first but correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to be on the board to use solar pulses, scythes have their occupants in reserves. You could nuke a scythe nd have one warrior squad footslogging with two pulses but that might hurt the list more then help. Not sure about that either
I think the benefit of at least one turn of night fighting will be worth it, just to protect you while you close the distance.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Over 9000! wrote:junk wrote:you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.
I thought the same thing at first but correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to be on the board to use solar pulses, scythes have their occupants in reserves. You could nuke a scythe nd have one warrior squad footslogging with two pulses but that might hurt the list more then help. Not sure about that either
I assumed that you need to be on-board or in a transport with Firepoints to use the power based off earlier rulings with Marine Librarians not being able to use psychic power from inside a Land Raider as it has no FirePoints. As the NS is closed topped and has no FirePoints (at work so can check the dex) it sounds like the pulse would be unusable when in a unit deployed in a nightscythe
Same would apply when held in reserve, as it is not actually in the field yet so cannot apply its affects to whats going on the table.
However if thats incorrect........
Great Night/Doom scythe conversion, though looking a bit overbalanced on the front it actually work. Not sure what the body and cockpit section is from though, my first thought was a Wave serpent but maybe its something from forgeworld (New Eldar Vehicle)?
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Post by: tetrisphreak
If you're not on the table using a solar pulse would be a waste -the enemy can't shoot at what isn't there.
Also solar pulse isn't a shooting attack, and as such closed-topped transports have no detrimental effect on using them.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
tetrisphreak wrote:If you're not on the table using a solar pulse would be a waste -the enemy can't shoot at what isn't there.
Also solar pulse isn't a shooting attack, and as such closed-topped transports have no detrimental effect on using them.
To clarify, I meant that if the cryptek was not on the table but you wanted to provide nightfight to units on the board
ex. Cryptek deployed in reserve in NS will rest of army is on the table
In the above, I would assume that you could not use that crypteks solar pulse as it is not on the table.
Good point that solar pulse is not defined as a shooting attack. So that would allow it to go off while the cryptek is inside the NS?
with that in mind, one of the only reasons Ive been running GA is to allow those things to go off in turns 1 & 2 and than sit on the home Obj.
New list for tomorrow:
HQ: 485
- Barge Lord + Warscythe
- Destoryer Lord + Shackles + Warscythe
- 4 x HOD
--1 x pulse
Fast Attack: 635
-5 x Wraith
-- 3 x whip coils
-- 2 x particle caster
-5x Wraith
-- 3 x whip coils
-- 1 x particle caster
- 5 x Wraith w/ D Lord
-- 3 x whip coils
-- 1 x particle caster
Troop: 700
5 x Warrior w/ HOD
-- NS
5 x Warrior w/ HOD
-- NS
5 x Immortal w/ HOD
-- NS
5 x Immortal w/ HOD + Pulse
-- NS
Heavy: 180
2 x Annihilation Barge
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Post by: tetrisphreak
I'll double check later but I'm pretty sure being embarked on the ns is the same rules wise as any other closed vehicle - with one exception that the unit inside goes into reserves if the ride is wrecked/ exploded.
I could well be wrong after the FAQ comes out
44333
Post by: junk
That list looks pretty good, unless your opponent is spamming land raiders, you have a good TAC list there with a very strong anti-infantry/transport load out. Definitely looking forward to your battle report!
Now, we have gotten off track with all the list tweaking we've been discussing, and It would be cool if we could resume the tactical discussions.
One of the things that slipped through the cracks here is the WW vs. MSU Purifier match up. MSU Purifiers was the most commonly played army of the summer/fall tournament season, although it didn't top as many tournaments as Space Wolves and IG, it's going to be a hurdle that the WW has to overcome.
The most common MSU Purifier lists feature 4x6 purifers in psy-bolt razorbacks, sometimes 4x5 or 5x5. With 2-4 dreadnoughts, and a Nade-quisitor at 1850. These lists have 10+ Psycannons and 4-6 Psybolted Heavy bolters, backed up by the S8 48" Autocannons.
So assuming all things are equal, pitched battle, kill points, What do we want to do in this fight?
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
junk wrote:That list looks pretty good, unless your opponent is spamming land raiders, you have a good TAC list there with a very strong anti-infantry/transport load out. Definitely looking forward to your battle report!
Now, we have gotten off track with all the list tweaking we've been discussing, and It would be cool if we could resume the tactical discussions.
One of the things that slipped through the cracks here is the WW vs. MSU Purifier match up. MSU Purifiers was the most commonly played army of the summer/fall tournament season, although it didn't top as many tournaments as Space Wolves and IG, it's going to be a hurdle that the WW has to overcome.
The most common MSU Purifier lists feature 4x6 purifers in psy-bolt razorbacks, sometimes 4x5 or 5x5. With 2-4 dreadnoughts, and a Nade-quisitor at 1850. These lists have 10+ Psycannons and 4-6 Psybolted Heavy bolters, backed up by the S8 48" Autocannons.
So assuming all things are equal, pitched battle, kill points, What do we want to do in this fight?
If playing the above........
I would try to go 2nd and deploy in a refused flank depending on his deployment (I would assume central, but would hope for spread out)
Deploy along the table edge on one corner to maximize NightFighing affect (pulse in his turn), cross fingers and hope they have trouble seeing
Then move up 12 along short table edge to be just within range of a small portion of his army, hop out units with HOD, blast the units within range (aiming for anything clustered up to take advantage of tesla arc)
-- My hope is to create enough wreckage between remaining units and my midfield units to stop them charging in their turn.
Remaining functional NS would embark 1 - 2 units and move them further up the table edge to other points of cover and potentially inside his deployment zone. Aim is to create a half arc from my deployment zone and up to his deployment zone bending out towards the short table edge, with the 24" point hitting about center of the board & his deployment zone. While a full envelopment would be great, a half with S8 and S7 weapons all along one side of his flank should work just fine.
Then hope the dice rituals performed the previous night did their job and I roll well enough on shooting......
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Post by: junk
The night scythe does give you the mobility to pull off your positioning, so that's one thing you can count on. If he chooses to concentrate on your advancing scythes he's going to get wrecked by uninjured wraiths.
You can't count on his deployment cooperating with your counter-assault strategy, but you can force moves with your HQs.
Ideally we want our opponent to deploy offensively: forward and loose; for the GK it's a sound strategy thanks to the board coverage provided by razorbacks, while keeping your purifiers in position to assault in any direction.
By taking the GK player from one flank in a KP game, we have the freedom to bring the full strength of our army against a fraction of his.
Any MSU purifier list deploying first against a wraithwing will learn after a game or two to castle, denying us the advantage of our mobility and force us to fight on a more direct playing field.
This is where the HQs come into play. Obviously, sweep attacks from our CCB + warscythe assaults; and destroyer lords splitting off from wraiths become our 'line breakers'. Sacrificed to the gods of armor penetration. Ideally we want our HQ's up in his Psyflenought house, breaking his fire support. But if we can't reach them, we want to take out his razorbacks.
If we can get his army on foot while our transports are still intact, we've got this in the bag, our backbone is jump infantry and anti-infantry guns.
With Razorbacks or Psyflenoughts out of commission we've limited his effective range to within our own, and the annihilation barges can clean up the mess once they come out of night fighting or simply move into range. Against a castled GK player, we want our wraiths on the edge of their threat range, not wasted on vehicles. Against purifiers, you need the charge.
If you've got a royal court in there, you use those shots on power armor, and keep the fight with the purifiers a shooting battle. Gauss Cannons and TL Tesla Destructors will kill marines, no matter what force weapon/psyker power they've got. Let your wraiths eat those dreadnoughts before they ID all the wraiths.
If you've got scarabs in there (2x6 wraiths + 10 Scarab list) go on and give those scarabs away. They're cheap, expendible, and annoying for your opponent; with the power to de-mech an army, they naturally become a high priority target, which is wonderful, because you don't need them, but your opponent hates them.
If your opponent chooses not to castle, but to deploy in the typical optimum configuration for a purifier list, with a wide threat range and an aggressive stance, then by all means, take him from the flank and chew your way up his line.
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Post by: junk
Any other considerations?
I expect GK players to step up and take issue with this analysis...
ShotgunFacelift has the best of it, I think, using the wing to envelop from a flank. The concern being concentrated fire from psyflenoughts and psycannons against the outstretched portion of the army.
What about something completely different, anyone have concerns against match ups with Tyranids?
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Post by: ShotgunFacelift
A matchup against genestealer horde nids would be somewhat difficult but the strategy would only change by delaying movement up the board until the infiltrating units have been mauled or areas of the board have been cleared.
The Hive Guard (shooty thing) would make a mess of the Av11 units so the NS would have to be held in reserve until they have been removed.
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Post by: DevianID
I have serious doubts about destruction crypteks. 35 points, right? For s8 ap2. I dont know, I mean after the obligatory solar pulse guy I dont see the value in additional 35 point s8 ap2 shots.
Consider 4 destro crypteks, one with solar pulse...
Or 1 destro cryptek with solar pulse, and a 105 point block to buy something else. Like another scythe for its average 5.33 s7 hits versus 2 s8 ap2 hits that the 3 crypteks get.
To me, destro crypteks are basicly jokero weaponsmiths. 35 points, not great in cc, but with a versitle shooting attack (s8 ap2 or s9 ap2 with longer range). Its just the destro crypteks dont buff the squad, and dont have 2 other weapon options, and are capped at 5.
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Post by: Lukus83
The big problem I see with removing the HoD crypteks is that you are basically losing a lot of dedicated anti-tank in the list. Now while I myself will be messing around with a slightly toned down version of the dedicated Wraithwing, I still want a reasonable amount of Crypteks in the list. When you put Wraiths in you need some shooting to crack transports allowing the Wraiths to munch the contents...much like nids do.
For me an 1850 list will look like:
Anrakyr
CC Barge
RC 1
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse
Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge
RC 2
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse
10x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
10x Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Comes to 1850. While you lose a lot of the alpha striking capability when employing Night Scythes the addition of Scrabs punish a mechanized foe who plays too aggressively. Having a 2nd Solar Pulse also allows you to maintain positional domination over an opponent which is hugely important in objective games. In this variation the Wraiths could be counter-assault vs assault heavy lists (think nids with a high amount of stealers or Mech DE with Wyches). Depending on your opponent you can sit back and gain a KP advantage by knocking out vehicles or push aggressively with your Wraiths and push out onto objectives if they get their S8+ from a few key sources (looking at Long Fangs and GK Dreads here).
What do you guys think?
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Lukus83 wrote:The big problem I see with removing the HoD crypteks is that you are basically losing a lot of dedicated anti-tank in the list. Now while I myself will be messing around with a slightly toned down version of the dedicated Wraithwing, I still want a reasonable amount of Crypteks in the list. When you put Wraiths in you need some shooting to crack transports allowing the Wraiths to munch the contents...much like nids do.
For me an 1850 list will look like:
Anrakyr
CC Barge
RC 1
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse
Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge
RC 2
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse
10x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
10x Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Comes to 1850. While you lose a lot of the alpha striking capability when employing Night Scythes the addition of Scrabs punish a mechanized foe who plays too aggressively. Having a 2nd Solar Pulse also allows you to maintain positional domination over an opponent which is hugely important in objective games. In this variation the Wraiths could be counter-assault vs assault heavy lists (think nids with a high amount of stealers or Mech DE with Wyches). Depending on your opponent you can sit back and gain a KP advantage by knocking out vehicles or push aggressively with your Wraiths and push out onto objectives if they get their S8+ from a few key sources (looking at Long Fangs and GK Dreads here).
What do you guys think?
A 1850 I would really look into a destroyer lord just for the sake of points efficiency. While losing the 2nd solar pulse you get much of the same utility (at & cc line breaker) while saving approx 45 points. In the above I would put that into extra bodies in the small immortal squads. Alternatively you could replace aranykr with a regular barge lord and and redistribute the points, but I understand his utility and previous performance in your other games.
Even then, there isn't much I'd change about the list.
But here's a question:
1. How would you handle a venom spam list (other than watching youth immortal squads get hosed down in t1?)
2. How would you play against your normal nid list (lots of infiltrating steamers, ymargls [little astards] swarm lord, etc, etc)
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Post by: Lukus83
Venoms don't actually get a turn 1 alpha strike. With Night Fight I force them to push and go flat out. Essentially I get an alpha strike on them (though they do get a bunch of cover saves). If they sit back then it's a shooting match where they can't see for 2 turns. It would be tough but by forcing the DE forward I can cherry pick the targets that absolutely have to die with shooting, tarpit a few others with Scarabs and deny assaults with Wraiths.
Knowing how nids work I would have to say vs the mass Stealers that I run would probably be the most competitive. Due to the conga line approach you can hit them hard with the Wraiths while denying a lot of return attacks. Alternative to that is to shoot them and if they take from the front then they are possibly denying themselves the charge (or again at least they won't be charging turn 1 for fear of not getting enough attacks in). They should not take form the rear since they could lose their FnP buff and reforming the conga wastes movement forward. Not saying I can deal with all the stealers in 1 go, but if you can make enough of a dent then Wraiths can finish off the survivors.
Oh and I would suggest giving a unit of scarabs a go instead of that 3rd units of Wraiths. Against certain builds Scarabs have a huge threat priority and take pressure off the Wraiths in certain competitive matchups...Scarabs can't be ignored by GK Dreads and vs multiple AV14 Wraiths will struggle while Scarabs will just eat it alive (or at least make it so your other stuff pens easier). Just somethig to playtest.
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Post by: cmac
I think the venoms will still get the alpha Luike, not sure how you are figuring the slower list gets the alpha. Realistically with a scarab wall in deployment I would move 12" to 24" range (66% chance with nightvision of seeing) and tempting the scarab charge or 27" (48% chance of seeing) and whittle the scarabs or the wraiths (if deployed aggresively). However, I would probably hold the blasterborn inside 1 turn as I need to be at 18" for them and I don't want them all to die to scarabs/wraiths counterattacking. Hence, limiting my t1 alpha. The way it worked last time, I got a brutal t2 alpha once the wraiths had been cleared by the venoms. Dark Lances do a similar thing from a distance to try to silence the vehicles. Nightfighting we don't mind so much.
Still a tough matchup I think. Remember the other game was DOW, hence I turboed.
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Post by: junk
I tend to agree with Cmac's interpretation of a DE reaction to an aggressive WW central deployment; you'd have more luck with an oblique approach, forcing the lengthwise deployment of the DE to use turns of movement to compensate for their reduced range under Night Fight. The Venom list's high mobility counteracts the typical advantage of the WW, and forces you to use it like a wrecking ball, coming in tight and hard from the short edges.
The advantage swings back to WW if the DE sacrifices it's mobility to concentrate fire on your vanguard (thus castling), as you'll be able to engage multiple targets faster, maximize the tesla effect, and limit the effectiveness of his shooting by forcing the dilemma of which of your multiple High priority targets to concentrate on.
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Post by: Lukus83
As it stands I have only played vs competitive Mech DE the once and didn't do so well so my tabletop experience on this limited (although that is soon to change now we have Cmac joining the dark side).
I'm now actually thinking about an alternative list which includes 4 Night Scythes (and 3 Annihilation Barges) at 1850. Actually it's very similar to ShotgunFacelifts list with a few alterations. The more I think about Tesla Destructors the more I like them. Great vs DE but are also good enough to handle Rhinos. Factoring mobility of Nightsycthes it also seems really easy to get side shots on Chimeras.
26404
Post by: cmac
Yeah, learning to hate that tesla arcing thing, especially if the dice are rolling hot. Its very difficult with the saturation of units that would normally all jump out for the "going to take 1/3 of your points turn 1" to spread out sufficiently to mitigate the tesla damage. It's just physically impossible to spread out enough and still get the shots in I require.
We roll a venom spam 2k v WW 2k tomorrow (shotgunfacelift). A battle report could come with pro's cons etc. I'm planning on trying Vect +Baron ;-). Want that 1st turn and a bit of CC grunt (wyches throw handbags).
In the WW list, be careful if you intend on using 2 wraiths units and 10 scarabs. I found the multicharge of the wraiths and scarabs with a couple of units of wyches ended up with a bunch of fearless saves (16 or so) on each unit of wraiths.
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Post by: junk
I'm anxious to see that battle report!
I don't mean to change the subject, because I'm enjoying the DE and Tyranid input; but tomorrow night I've got a match up with my WraithWing vs a 7 drop pod army.
My List:
Junk's WW V6 - Fingers crossed.
Anrakyr in CCB
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs
Lance Tek
Pulse Tek
2x6 Wraiths (3 whips, 2 casters)
1 x 10 Scarabs
1 x 10 Eternals
2 x 5 Immortals
2 x Scythes
2 x Annihilation Barge
I don't know the full details of my opponent's list, but I know it includes a thunderfire cannon, 15 sternguard (probably all melta) Pedro, some scout bikes; no dreadnoughts, possibly a second orbital bombardment. I don't want to tailor my list, but I'd love to theoryhammer this to death.
So I figured I'd tap the brain trust for some last minute suggestions for deployment and long strategy. Against Drop Pod armies, In the past, I've played heavy reserves and leave a little bait on the field; but I'd love to see what other people suggest.
26404
Post by: cmac
Well dude, its your thread, we can only speak from the experience based on the surrounding meta. Its good to hear and see other variations. The first time I played shotgunfacelift he had a unit of 6 wraiths, I was WWP that day was pure CC (harlequins, wyches, talos, 3 max beast squads etc) and after the game I remember thinking; "Wow, wraiths are good". After the game we had a beer and discussed tactics. I though, 1 squad of wraiths is good (fast, brutal, wound allocation, inv save), how about 3? The thoughts were, oh too expensive. How I would make that list is similar to the thought process you have gone through above;
What is important?
I want lots of wraiths.
Hence. 3 max squads, I would increase their cost with wound allocation shenanigans more severe than whats listed above. If I can put a wound (2 wounds) on the layouts above, your precious whip coil fellas will fall faster than if there is complete differentiation. I think you actually only need 2 whip coil guys, put them on either flank when you advance and with a smart charge you can get their effect on the majority of the combatants.
Now, what goes with this.
HQ
Both the CC barge overlord, Anrakyr (cool character but has a big target on his head and is only really brutally effective if you get within 12" and don't ruin his day, 1 character that can reasonably reliably take out 4!! of my transports in a turn needs to be managed), the D lord are solid. Stormlord has some tricks and with the proliferation of vehicles I am running is a real threat, however as an allcomers I think the effect will end up being underwhelming. This 4+ steal may be his best quality but for the price there seems to be better efficiency. The CC barges are nice but I think a D Lord is fast enough to get to the action, especially if he has some ablative wraith wounds.
Court - People seem crazy about this. The solar pulse is good, given. If its necessary to provide some level of safety for the approach then I guess its an overlord in a CC barge, as cheap as killy effectiveness allows with a min size court with 1 pulse. Period. Save your points, they are your cheese.
Troops
Well, yes tesla immortals are nice but really in the WW list the wraiths will clear the troops. I would go min size warrior units in the NS? (the flyer with the tesla arcer). Take 3-4.
So this costs how much? I have no codex but we probably end up with some points to play with at 1500-2000 points.
What can help us?
Heavy
Those barges are good value. However I have found that with the fire proliferation I can break the QS with one shot At hunters then put the pain into them with the multiple shots ravagers to reliably finish. However, I'm then not thinning wraiths.. Take a couple, I don't think you need 3 as these will draw the fire for the NS to get your tesla action down.
Elites
The stalker is looking more and more like its good on paper to me. After a few games, their effectiveness has been minimal (double skulls didn't help shotgun face ;-)).
I think this is your "weak" FOC slot. Maybe nothing here, go more warriors and NS if needed, or HQs.
HQ's
There are a bunch of nice additions here. That WBB option they have (I know it has a different name), is probably the BEST ability in your codex for changing the result of the game. I am learning more and more that to kill a Necron HQ, I have to completely surround you then kill you in CC otherwise imagine this; I take first turn and on the top of turn 5 I shoot your WBB HQ which is hanging annoyingly near my objective (within 6"). You make your roll, reanimate within 3" and contest, take an objective. All out of my control except my previous turns movement to block. However, in turn 5 maybe I haven't got much stuff left and can't.. I think that "ever living"? will turn a loss into a draw, a draw into a win on an uncanny basis. Hence, lets take 2. I would like to say 2 D Lords that move with the move populated (at the time) wraith squads. No solar pulse.
Can someone with a codex please cost this out?
As for your upcoming game against the marines, I make some suggestions below.
Ok, so he has a heavy investment in sternguard.
Depending on deployment type (this is easier to do with spearhead), put the scarabs in a circular shield around the vehicles, use the wraiths sitting just behind the scarabs (castling I guess). His melta heavy sternguard might be able to have a shot at a vehicle but certainly won't get 2d6, hence your QS is quite powerful. His other option is to IK scarabs or whittle wraiths. Either of these you won't really mind too much as you have redundancy in ways of dealing with 3+ marines. Shooting first then a big multi charge with the scarabs and wraiths if needed. However, one squad of wraiths I would send to hunt the Th cannon and other stuff in the area, another hunting the bikes. You should be able to piecemeal milk a victory, his list doesn't sound cohesive (sorry if you are reading). If its DOW, give him second turn if possible and then you can control the game as you know where half the DS stuff is. You can then either Alpha if its in 24" coming on with everything first turn, or refuse flank and avoid them with mobility. Either way, you should be able to fight this one on your terms. If DOW and you go first, roll on into phalanx mode as above.
As for my game with shotgunfacelift tomorrow, here is my list;
DE 2000 points on the dot.
Vect w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (I feel I don't need the ff here as I will either be going 24" or moving 12" and disembarking after which the raider has done its job.
9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (as above)
Trueborn x 4, blasters x 4, venom +sc. x 3 (sorry)
Warriors x 5, blaster, venom +sc, x4
Ravager w ff x 3
Yes, its a list. The point is as a WW player (maybe Shotgunfacelift can post his list), what would you do against this?
44333
Post by: junk
cmac wrote:Well dude, its your thread, we can only speak from the experience based on the surrounding meta. Its good to hear and see other variations. The first time I played shotgunfacelift he had a unit of 6 wraiths, I was WWP that day was pure CC (harlequins, wyches, talos, 3 max beast squads etc) and after the game I remember thinking; "Wow, wraiths are good". After the game we had a beer and discussed tactics. I though, 1 squad of wraiths is good (fast, brutal, wound allocation, inv save), how about 3? The thoughts were, oh too expensive. How I would make that list is similar to the thought process you have gone through above;
What is important?
I want lots of wraiths.
Hence. 3 max squads, I would increase their cost with wound allocation shenanigans more severe than whats listed above. If I can put a wound (2 wounds) on the layouts above, your precious whip coil fellas will fall faster than if there is complete differentiation. I think you actually only need 2 whip coil guys, put them on either flank when you advance and with a smart charge you can get their effect on the majority of the combatants.
My initial desire was definitely max wraiths; but I feel like the scarabs are an x factor that I can rely on to draw fire, tarpit, and keep my wraiths free for surgical application. I'm also on the fence about wound allocation vs. redundant whips; 2 whips and improved allocation is better vs. shooting, but 3 whips is better in assault. I'll definitely use the next game to measure the effect. Both points are well appreciated.
cmac wrote:
Now, what goes with this.
HQ
Both the CC barge overlord, Anrakyr (cool character but has a big target on his head and is only really brutally effective if you get within 12" and don't ruin his day, 1 character that can reasonably reliably take out 4!! of my transports in a turn needs to be managed), the D lord are solid. Stormlord has some tricks and with the proliferation of vehicles I am running is a real threat, however as an allcomers I think the effect will end up being underwhelming. This 4+ steal may be his best quality but for the price there seems to be better efficiency. The CC barges are nice but I think a D Lord is fast enough to get to the action, especially if he has some ablative wraith wounds.
Court - People seem crazy about this. The solar pulse is good, given. If its necessary to provide some level of safety for the approach then I guess its an overlord in a CC barge, as cheap as killy effectiveness allows with a min size court with 1 pulse. Period. Save your points, they are your cheese.
The HQ block of this list was the most difficult part of the process. I love D-Lords, they're one of the most cost effective HQs in the game considering everything they bring to the table. I'd love to run 2 of them, but I feel like the strategic advantage of 1 turn of night fighting is going to get me that critical advance that I need to get to effective range. I went with anrakyr primarily because of his potential, but also specifically because he is a priority target, and will draw high strength fire from the barges, scythes and wraiths, that all really deserve a lot of attention. He is a gamble though, and I'm biting my nails about how he will perform.
The Second lance-tek was an afterthought, trying to find a place for 35 points. Dropping Anrakyr down to a standard Scythelord will save 50 points. Combined with the 35 from the extra lance-tek would be enough to field an extra 5 immortals (85).
cmac wrote:
Troops
Well, yes tesla immortals are nice but really in the WW list the wraiths will clear the troops. I would go min size warrior units in the NS? (the flyer with the tesla arcer). Take 3-4.
So this costs how much? I have no codex but we probably end up with some points to play with at 1500-2000 points.
5 Warriors in a night scythe is 165
5 immortals in a night scythe is 185
The 20 points for 3+ saves and Assault 1 24" guns, but actually, I was going to stick gauss blasters on them, figuring that the 2x5 squads would be deposited on objectives early and remain stationary, so the rapid fire limitation isn't a concern, but an advantage if enemies begin to close. The 10x Immortals (eternals) were my foot squad, so they do get the tesla guns, move 6" shoot 24".
I absolutely love night scythes; and taking your combined advice so far, if I were to drop 1 coil, downgrade anrakyr, and ditch the lance tek, I could afford a 3rd. (More Proxies for the proxy throne)
cmac wrote:
What can help us?
Heavy
Those barges are good value. However I have found that with the fire proliferation I can break the QS with one shot At hunters then put the pain into them with the multiple shots ravagers to reliably finish. However, I'm then not thinning wraiths.. Take a couple, I don't think you need 3 as these will draw the fire for the NS to get your tesla action down.
No argument here.
cmac wrote:
Elites
The stalker is looking more and more like its good on paper to me. After a few games, their effectiveness has been minimal (double skulls didn't help shotgun face ;-)).
I think this is your "weak" FOC slot. Maybe nothing here, go more warriors and NS if needed, or HQs.
Agony. The Stalkers are really attractive; but they belong in a warrior phalanx, where the Twin-linking magic can be exploited. My big anti-infantry guns are already twin-linked, and my anti-tank comes in the form of rending, warscythes, and scarabs. So at best, they're 150 point blockers with 2xMulti Meltas; nothing to scoff at, but also not necessary. I do like them though.
There aren't a lot of options in the elite section that can keep up with this army, Praetorians being one (200 for 5, jump infantry either anti- Teq or anti-mech), Flayed ones (65 for 5) as a distraction, or Deathmarks (95 for 5) as another High Priority threat.
cmac wrote:
HQ's
There are a bunch of nice additions here. That WBB option they have (I know it has a different name), is probably the BEST ability in your codex for changing the result of the game. I am learning more and more that to kill a Necron HQ, I have to completely surround you then kill you in CC otherwise imagine this; I take first turn and on the top of turn 5 I shoot your WBB HQ which is hanging annoyingly near my objective (within 6"). You make your roll, reanimate within 3" and contest, take an objective. All out of my control except my previous turns movement to block. However, in turn 5 maybe I haven't got much stuff left and can't.. I think that "ever living"? will turn a loss into a draw, a draw into a win on an uncanny basis. Hence, lets take 2. I would like to say 2 D Lords that move with the move populated (at the time) wraith squads. No solar pulse.
Can someone with a codex please cost this out?
Dropping anrakyr, the ccb, the royal court would free up 335. A D.Lord with scarabs is 145. The 190 would be probably best employed as 1 night scythe and 1 more annihilation barge; for 2 more tesla destructors and an additional gauss cannon.
cmac wrote:
As for your upcoming game against the marines, I make some suggestions below.
Ok, so he has a heavy investment in sternguard.
Depending on deployment type (this is easier to do with spearhead), put the scarabs in a circular shield around the vehicles, use the wraiths sitting just behind the scarabs (castling I guess). His melta heavy sternguard might be able to have a shot at a vehicle but certainly won't get 2d6, hence your QS is quite powerful. His other option is to IK scarabs or whittle wraiths. Either of these you won't really mind too much as you have redundancy in ways of dealing with 3+ marines. Shooting first then a big multi charge with the scarabs and wraiths if needed. However, one squad of wraiths I would send to hunt the Th cannon and other stuff in the area, another hunting the bikes. You should be able to piecemeal milk a victory, his list doesn't sound cohesive (sorry if you are reading). If its DOW, give him second turn if possible and then you can control the game as you know where half the DS stuff is. You can then either Alpha if its in 24" coming on with everything first turn, or refuse flank and avoid them with mobility. Either way, you should be able to fight this one on your terms. If DOW and you go first, roll on into phalanx mode as above.
Solid advice, but wouldn't I rather give him 1st turn?
cmac wrote:
As for my game with shotgunfacelift tomorrow, here is my list;
DE 2000 points on the dot.
Vect w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (I feel I don't need the ff here as I will either be going 24" or moving 12" and disembarking after which the raider has done its job.
Baron w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (as above)
Trueborn x 4, blasters x 4, venom +sc. x 3 (sorry)
Warriors x 5, blaster, venom +sc, x4
Ravager w ff x 3
Yes, its a list. The point is as a WW player (maybe Shotgunfacelift can post his list), what would you do against this?
This is going to take some thought, that's a nasty list. First impression, I'd definitely want to try to tackle that obliquely under cover of night fighting, deploying tight and at a comfortable distance in the hopes you move into a tighter formation to concentrate fire, or at least move into my comfort zone; I might actually want to swap whip coils and particle casters, and DS the wraiths to take pot shots and draw lance fire away from my vehicles chasing down vehicles if they don't get wiped, or DS the Night Scythes to use those tesla destructors against the venoms or ravagers; god that's risky. Imotekh would make me a little more comfortable in a defensive game, as he complements warriors, and with your model count, his lightning storms become a consideration, on top of his extended night fighting, which compensates for the superior range of the lances to some degree. Anrakyr is still fun though, so he'd come up behind the annihilation barges to try to put a hole in your line. It's a tough match up, I would love to get into this fight!
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
cmac wrote:DE 2000 points on the dot.
Vect w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (I feel I don't need the ff here as I will either be going 24" or moving 12" and disembarking after which the raider has done its job.
9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (as above)
Trueborn x 4, blasters x 4, venom +sc. x 3 (sorry)
Warriors x 5, blaster, venom +sc, x4
Ravager w ff x 3
Yes, its a list. The point is as a WW player (maybe Shotgunfacelift can post his list), what would you do against this?
Like last time it will be asking, how many of those blasted venoms do you have again?
The new version involves as much tesla as I Can possibly fit in without cutting myself too thin. I'm still not sold on the pure msu format with min 5 man squads. The little guys just die too easy, especially when staring at 1 or more likely 5 venoms.
Jury is still out on whether or not I will keep going the route of the cryptek, I lik their shooting attacks but can't really think of the time that they have saved my metallic bacon.
Anyways tactics for tommorrow, Try to stay in the 20 to 24" sweet spot and keep blasting away.
List (from damaged short term memory)
Lord with warscythe in ccb
Lord with warscythe in ccb
6 x hod with 2 x pulse ( 2 in each troop unit)
2 x 5 man wraith squads (3 x whip, 2 x pistol)
2 x 6 man warrior units in NS
8 man immortal squad in NS
3 x annihilation barges
Considering I forgot to play the lord in ccb last time cmac and i hit the table we will see how it goes. Take 2nd, hide on the edge and hope he can't see me, and then hit the closest side with everything I got
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
For me the NS has built in benefits and problems concerning it's portal ability.
In Annihilation I think the fact that they enter reserves has a pro that the contents can't be assaulted if their ride is popped and actually take no damage and are safely placed in reserve. Last turn this could be brutal though, so they need to be disembarked or you provide an easy way to get to birds with one stone.
In C&C and Seize Ground I am still battling with the NS because it is a super sonic flyer with a decent weapon but again, if you flat out to grab objectives you can't disembark so if it is shot down, your troops enter reserve instead of the battlefield and thus you lost that objective.
So it is interesting because we have the first super sonic transport, but it has some glaring drawbacks concerning the way its portal works. Interested in how these play out in your first game with them.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Bit the same situation here, it sounds like such a great combination of speed perks and includes a high utility heavy weapon, but all I seem to be using it for at this point is another annihilation barge with av11.
In the last game I played I use them as an attempted countercharge unit, in reserves coming in on turn two and three. Both came in dropped off their cargo and both shot into the sides and rear of a unit past the mid field. Which worked well.
But I Didn't have the chance to play the portal trick as the immortals got charged before they could embark into the night scythe.
9345
Post by: Lukus83
So had a long hard think last night and this morning. As I said before the more I think about the Night Scythes the more I like them so finding spots for them seems natural. The 2 things that really irks me though are:
1. no 2nd pulse. While it's not as necessary vs DE since their mobility just ridiculous in other match ups that 2nd turn could prove really beneficial.
2. unreliability (even with the scarabs) vs multiple high all round AV. 1 Overlord on a CC Barge just doesn't cut it for me.
So I came up with a new list that helps to mitigate this even more:
Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge
Royal Court 1
HoD Cryptek w/ Pulse
Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge
Royal Court 2
HoD Cryptek w/ Pulse
5x Immortals
Tesla/Gauss??
Night Scythe
5x Immortals
Tesla/ Gauss??
Night Scythe
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
10x Scarabs
5x Wraiths
2x Whip Coils
1x Whip Coils +Particle caster (if this is allowed)
1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
1x Particle Caster
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Let me know what you guys think.
Oh and Junk for your game just go full reserve. Allow him to drop half his army turn 1 and hit a flank when you come on. And if you go 2nd then you get to see if even more stuff comes on. If he bunches up then your tesla destructors are going to be a lot of fun that game. Cmac's analysis is pretty solid and I don't think there is much more to add.
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
ShotgunFacelift wrote:Bit the same situation here, it sounds like such a great combination of speed perks and includes a high utility heavy weapon, but all I seem to be using it for at this point is another annihilation barge with av11.
In the last game I played I use them as an attempted countercharge unit, in reserves coming in on turn two and three. Both came in dropped off their cargo and both shot into the sides and rear of a unit past the mid field. Which worked well.
But I Didn't have the chance to play the portal trick as the immortals got charged before they could embark into the night scythe.
That's good you used them to a decent effect though. I just am trying to figure out if they are worth the points because I think their best roll really is as an additional fire support unit and I am not sure if they have the lasting power. I am wondering now how a single unit of tomb blades with the particle beamer upgrade would work. It's 150 points for five of these and they provide 5 str 6 blast support which would wreak havoc against light vehicles and hoards not to mention scarab farm lists.
I think if NS are used then the list really does benefit from a single monolith to bring units back from reserve and into the fray. I also think it would provide a great screen for the NS so pulses don't have to be used 1st turn.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Recap from yesterdays Game.......
Ma List:
-Lord in CCB with Gauntlet o Fire & Warscythe
HOD with Pulse
-Lord in CCB with Gauntlet o Fire & Warscythe
HOD with Pulse
6 x Wraith
- 3 x WC
- 2 x Pistols
6 x Wraith
- 3 x WC
- 2 x Pistols
6 x Scarabs
5 x Warriors
NS
5 x Warriors
NS
5 x Warriors
NS
5 x Warriors
NS
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Game
-Spearhead deployment
- 5 x Objectives
Result:
DE: Victory
2 Obj Held
1 x Contested
Crons:
1 Obj Held
1 x Contested
End on Turn 5 (might have gone to 6 but store was closing)
General Summary:
- Nightfight limited effect of DE Shooting for 2 turns, which I could have capitalized on better but could be used to great effect
- 1 x Barge lord had a great time tying up the Duke his wyche retinue and a unit of blaster borne for 2 turns, and got back up 2 x times before the end
- The extra Tesla Destructors on the NS were very usefull in terms of additional fire support, and they drew alot of fire away from the Annihilation barges
- NS movement could be put to great use jumping around the board but one must be carefull with the timing of dropping off their cargo
- Min squads of warriors are..........I hesitate to say useless, but their effect on the game was to almost glance a venom. Granted their function is to take objectives but I feel theyre too fragile to really be anywhere near places where fighting is going on.
- Despite the amount of Tesla on the field I found it necessary to really focus 3+ units of Tesla Dest. on one unit or group of units to really get the job done. They seem really good at mauling things, but have difficulty outrihg killing stuff off.
VenomSpam sucks to play against as the entire army can redeploy quickly to avoid the 24" sweet spot, and the number of scoring units makes Objective based games like this difficult. But I lasted significantly longer than the last time playing against Cmac, and think this WW version is quite viable vs such a list as I can use the NS speed to quickly redeploy and move to contest. However there are issues with staying power as a single turn of good enemy shooting can ground your mobile forces or hose down any poor warriors who are on the table.
MVP of the game is the one barge lord taking on the duke and readying him to get ID'd by a Tesla dest. shot. The flat out movement and threat range of the barge lords can be used to good affect and is something I'm going to work on Going forward.
Playing against a less mobile opponent I feel the wraiths would have had a better chance to get stuck in, but in this game they only really played a part near the end when trying to clear off the central objective.
More detailed report to come, and picts of T1, T2, T3
7637
Post by: Sasori
Shogun, you can't take a Gauntlet of fire, and a Warscythe on the Same Overlord.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Sasori wrote:Shogun, you can't take a Gauntlet of fire, and a Warscythe on the Same Overlord.
Thats unfortunate....... 
now where do i put those 5 points?
7637
Post by: Sasori
ShotgunFacelift wrote:Sasori wrote:Shogun, you can't take a Gauntlet of fire, and a Warscythe on the Same Overlord.
Thats unfortunate.......
now where do i put those 5 points?
Well, if you want to keep your current list the same, You could put another Particle Caster on each squad of Wraiths, since those are both 5 points each.
Do you mind posting your opponents list? It seems like you should have done very well. Each Tesla Destructor should be downing a Dark Eldar Vehicle.
Looking forward to rest of your batrep!
26404
Post by: cmac
Well, I can post the list
Vect
Wyches x 9, hek, ag in Raider
Haem w Liquefier
Wyches x 9, hek, ag in raider
Trueborn w 4 blasters in venom + sc, x 3
Warriors x 5, blaster, venom + sc x 2
Wrack x 3, venom + sc x 2
Ravager w ff, x 3
Spearhead deployment with shotgunfacelift hiding in the far far corner. First 2 turns I decided to dance around at 24-30 taking shots at the closest units (wraiths and scarabs) while keeping all the boys/girls inside the vehicles to mitigate tesla arcing until I can get the alpha in on the vehicles. I wouldn't have been able to do my turn 1 alpha on his list without exposing my squishy stuff to wraith/scarab counter attack unit this had been negated. We both zoomed around a bit trying to refuse flank under the darkness (well me anyway) until the game began in earnest. I think currently I might be a bit "too" wary of the wraiths. With concentrated fire on them , it does limit their effectiveness when they get to 2-3 wraiths left and then they don't have to numbers to get the multicharge in I am fearful of. Maybe a t1 alpha is back on and just accept the counter attack pain then clear next turn.
In practice, an Annihilation Barge shot isn't ruining a venoms day as maybe it should on paper, between needing to hit (yes 6's are good), penetrate (3 glance 4 to pen) with the ff save it isn't as horrible as I originally thought. Maybe he was unlucky.
Shotgunfacelift can do the bat rep, but keeping with the theme of the thread ill just break down how I saw the units in the list running.
CC lords in barges - pretty cool. Once the Lord is out of the barge, he is easy enough to smack down with higher I pw attacks (vect had his number). That EL rule is great and will win/draw games, a res orb may not be a bad investment here. Getting the 4+ cover save while getting close absorbed a lot of fire (he made every save from a bunch of dark lances) which wasn't going elsewhere. These are solid, would like to see the D Lord in action again but the 2 turns of NF given by the cyrptecs, while not being a real dampener for me with night vision (24-27" is reasonably reliable, with wraiths pushing forward I can make that 18.1-24" comfortably), did mean I didn't drop down and alpha strike until turn 3 (when 700 points go fried..). However with late turn NS supersonic action (its a 4+ I think Elliot not a 3+) and a proliferation of targets for me (yes im being hypocritical), it was tough to table you by turn 5. This would cause me trouble in KP's and you could ninja a win, maybe I would be more aggressive earlier. He got to snipe an agoniser which was cute.
Question (yes should really go in rules) : a Lord using EL, can he move through my models, or come within 1", that are blocking if there is a space beyond that in the 3" circle?
Cyrptecs - still not a huge fan but the 2 turns of NF may be a "must have" in this list for all-comers. Gives a bit of punch to the squads that get dropped off on objectives.
Night Scythes – in his shooting phase, it was like he had 7 annihilation barges for all intents and purposes. Except these were a bigger threat as the effective range is 36”. Also with the spam of these and the supersonic you can be very annoying. For example if one fails the shaken LM roll or a wd, you get to super boost to a tactically better position for objective shenanigans, gain a 4+ to soak some shooting and then maybe fire from a better position the following turn. Yes, the armour is weaker however no OT has pros and cons.
Warriors – I think they are fine. MSU is MSU. Its like a unit of 5 dire avengers in a WS. Cheap and to the point. While 5 won’t do much, you get a mini alpha with 4 squads of these focusing fire if you are safe from counter assault the subsequent turn.
Wraiths – fine but with “only” an 18” threat range, they aren’t getting where they are needed before they are crippled. Not having a 2+ is a bit of a downer ;-P. I think the delivery system is the problem. They may be a “run interference” unit.
Scarabs – the weakest threat on the table to be honest. Not sure you need them. Maybe 2 elite slots is enough.
Annihilation Barges – Ok, they are fine. However, with 4 of these in dedicated transport slots, im not sure they are a given in this list.
Potential changes
Take 2 monoliths.
They need to be carefully managed, but against me for example, a couple deepstriking behind my lines with the threat of pulling the wraiths behind me to sandwich my force between them and the tesla may work. If I don’t get them down, im in trouble. They also have some nice weaponry. This needs to be bashed out tactically against different builds.
Tomb Spiders – I believe these can fix vehicles? Maybe support the liths and provide some counter attack potential and maybe buffing scarabs if these are used. Mainly for the liths though. Whether to start on the board or deepstrike is situational.
Regarding the deployment against the DP army, I personally really dislike full reserve as its got a bit of a “pussy” inference. The phalanx allows you to fully deploy, whether 1st or 2nd turn, and mitigate some of the damage. Then punch back strongly and clear the area.
44333
Post by: junk
Sounds like a good game. I'd like to see how that played out.
7 Tesla Destructors! I would have expected that to do better; but after just running 4 myself, I had a hard time getting them to be as effective as they promise to be; then again, I think I may have forgotten twin link on a few turns.
I'm not sure how much I trust Monoliths, the giant footprint combined with their short shooting range makes them mishappy,
I think the 18" threat on wraiths is good enough considering how they can ignore terrain, of course they'd be even better with fleet; but I've found them to be insanely resilient with 2W and 3++. The more shots aimed at them, the better for my vehicles, and vice versa.
I got lucky against the DP list, as I was able to force him to go first, and he underestimated the assault potential of the WW, deploying against my board edge to corral my deployment. Between the scarabs, the wraiths, the D.lord, the 10 furious charge eternals, and Anrakyr on a barge, It was kind of a bloodbath. There will be a rematch at 2000 points in the next few days.
After seeing JY2 combine WW and Spyder/scarab farm, I'm not sure which one of us has it right. More testing!
That DE list is pretty scary. Re: Your EL question, I'm not sure what you mean, can you rephrase it?
26404
Post by: cmac
Well, I will try. I'm looking at the best method of taking the ever living potential away from annoying lords. I don't have the codex so am unsure of the exact wording but last night we were in a bit of a rush and weren't too sure.
If I surround the lord with vehicles before shooting him to death, I figure he can just come back in the same spot. No block. If I shoot him to death then run a unit to cover his death spot and the surrounding 3", I block and he dies. If I charge him and consolidate well, I block him and he dies.
However, if I charge, kill him then block completely 270 degrees around his counter spot, and I have models that block the path to the 90 degrees but he could fit in the far 3" but would have to "move" though models I have that are blocking then can he do it.
Essentially, I'm checking if the rules say "when he dies, place a counter on the spot. Then if he makes his roll, place him anywhere within 3" of that counter (is that fully in or part of the base touching 3") where he is 1" away from enemy models. That seems to make sense to me, therefore one of shotgunface's lords probably could have found a spot to come back.
Was trying to use 2 wyches, a venom and Vect to block his return. If that doesn't make sense, shotgunfacelift may be able to explain better.
44333
Post by: junk
If you cover a 3 inch zone around the counter so it's impossible to legally place the model, the counter is removed, but if there' anywhere within a 3 inch radius that he can stand up and not be within 1" of an enemy model, he can return.
26404
Post by: cmac
Hmm, I foresee calipers being required in tournaments
23113
Post by: jy2
I'm starting to play wraithwing myself, however, I play a slightly different version than the ones posted here. Rather than running annihilation barges and night scythes, I run MSU-warrior units with 2x6 wraiths and an 8-spyder scarab-farm. At 2K, my list looks like this (I'm still experimenting so you'll see some changes between battle reports):
2K Necrons (My list)
Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
4x Crypteks - 4x Harbingers of Destruction, 1x Solar Pulse
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths -3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths -3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
2x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array
3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
So far, I've only played 2 games with them, one against Chaos and the other against Blood Angels, but I think they complement each other well.
It is an odd list in that it is a very un-necron-like army. Necrons are supposed to be a very good mid-range shooting army. My army is anything but good in shooting. As a matter of fact, my necron army exploits what is possibly necron's biggest weakness - assault. I2 and lack of power weapons...why is my list able to engage the enemy in close combat and still survive? One word....fearlessness. That's right. My army, or most of it at least, can't be swept.
Now why is this army so dangerous, this army with hardly any shooting? Because of what I like to coin as:
Maximum Threat Overload
It's one thing when you have to deal with 1 or 2 main threats at a time. It's something else when you have to deal with 4 - 2 wraith units, scarabs and command barge. My final competitive list will actually have 5 main threats as I will eventually swap out my Destroyer Lord for another Overlord on command barge. But the main thing is that all these threats are really, really fast. I'm talking about guaranteed in-your-face assault on turn 2 and maybe even on turn 1 with the scarabs. The name of the game is to apply a lot of pressure on the opponent and force him to play defensively, which is what I am banking on. If he does so, I have a huge advantage in objectives-based games as I will gain the positional advantage (another phrase I like to coin as Positional Dominance). If not, then it will be an interesting battle.
44333
Post by: junk
Jy2! Glad to have your input in here! I was hoping you'd drop in. We've talked about how the WW poses a lot of big threats, and I agree it's definitely a major strength of the list.
As we've talked about, I'm a proponent of more shooting (2xNS, 2xA.Barge) and 20 immortals over 25 warriors. But you're killing it with that list right now, so, obviously, your approach is working pretty damn well.
Alright WW Fans - not a full batrep, but a quick summary with a few lessons I've learned -
I just got into a bare-knuckle brawl with a 2000 point BA army using my 1850 WW, to make up for the deficiency I stuck 3 naked spiders in the list, inspired by Jy2's approach.
A couple of qualifiers first. The BA list wasn't a top list, and the player wasn't a regular BA player; it was a strange mix of units, lots of models pretending to be BA. I didn't think it would be a real fight, so I didn't keep notes.
The scarabs performed incredibly well, stripping armor off a few units including some ICs, and tar-pitting their share of units. 1 squad of wraiths with the destroyer lord tied up mephiston's squad for a few critical early rounds, while the other wraith unit managed to break 4 assault squads, after tesla destructor fire softened them. It was unreal.
Anrakyr took over the storm raven, laying down a ton of wounds and outright killing a number of models - then he assaulted and wrecked it. It was the first time I've really gotten to flex Anrakyr and I loved it!
By the end of the game, I still had Anrakyr (thanks to ever-living), both A. barges, 1 night scythe and 3 wraiths, and the BA were tabled. Two things decided this battle; 1 my opponent had a less than optimum list; and 2 I got insanely lucky, consistently rolling many 6s when it counted, between rending and tesla shooting. Mephiston is a terrifying monster, and had it not been for some great Wraith-saves and poor leadership rolls on his part, the battle wouldn't have gone nearly as well for me.
My opponent also failed some critical morale saves and allowed me to escort a number of his units off the board. Regardless, what I learned is this:
1. Mindshackle scarabs are incredible. The destroyer lord with mindshackle scarabs has paid off every time i've used him, his mobility lets you get those shackles where they need to be, and if they don't work, he can still murder, especially with well placed whip coils.
2. More whip coils, minimum 3 per squad, IMO, though I'm thinking about upping it to 4. With three in there, a few attacks are going to get around them, but you can really stop the important guys. With 4, they can shut down a 10 man squad.
3. The configuration i've been using for troops is 2x5 Gauss immortals + 1 lance-tek per squad; and 1x10 Tesla Eternals. The Teslaternals foot slog and the two small squads take scythes. I've found the mixture to be good enough and I haven't wanted to change either yet. If anything, I'd want to add a 3rd Night Scythe; they're just really handy, but also big targets. So having 3 is kind of great, I'd have to lose an annihilation barge and my particle casters to do it.
4. Anrakyr in a CCB is a beast; His mind-control is cute, but I find the only real reason to take him is to buff those immortals, and through that prism I don't know if he's worth it. I'm keeping him for now, but I think he'll end up getting cut down the road for a regular scythelord (possibly with scarabs). I'm still too attached to the 1 pulse-tek to consider swapping him out for a D.Lord at this point.
5. Scarabs and Spyders. I love scarabs, but I'm still attached to the annihilation barges. 2 Night Scythes and 2 barges, backed up by even 1 spyder with a fabricator array seems like a good idea, if only to get that extra 2.5 inch reach on the scarab rush. If I turn anrakyr into a regular overlord, I can afford it.
6. This game I was able to keep my barges stationary almost the whole game and fire all weapons; the Twin Linked TD's consistently laid 4-6 wounds down and the Gauss Cannons usually got 1 more in there. Against an army with lots of FNP Infantry, all those saves started tipping in my direction and models would drop. I'm okay with swapping a barge for a scythe, but at the moment, I think I want to keep the pair of them.
51131
Post by: Dytalus
Okay, I'm gonna try testing out my WraithWing build tomorrow against an IG player. He typically runs a gunline centered around keeping his Basilisks safe and forcing me to face down a bunch of tanks. I'm trying to work on a TAC list, but this will be my first battle with it. This is the list I'm running, I'll post up after-action thoughts afterwards. Opinions?
I'm contemplating getting rid of the scarabs in favour of more Wraiths, in which case I'll probably remove the Spyders as well. Basic idea is to stick the HoD Court into the Ghost Ark, have the Phaeron Warriors walk forward with the Ark to hunt down objectives/kill things. Second squad of warriors sits back on an objective near my deployment. Wraiths and Scarabs all move up close to try and get in CC. If he focuses too much on the Wraiths, the Scarabs will eat his armour. If he focuses too much on the Scarabs, the Wraiths will eat his troops (last game we played a single squad of 6 wraiths ate half his army without breaking a sweat). Annihilation Barges are there mainly to blow open transports and some additional anti-infantry fire.
43588
Post by: Anpu-adom
Dytalus,
I'm a big fan of scarabs and spyders in general, but I don't thing they belong in the Wraith Wing army for only one reason: Multi-assaulting the scarabs and wraiths can go really poorly if any power or force weapons don't get whipcoiled.
51131
Post by: Dytalus
Ah...I hadn't considered that. Like I said, Scarabs + Spyders weren't a dead certain include for my list, since I can use the D. Lord to knock out anything with AV14 (assuming he lives long enough). So with the Scarabs and Spyders gone, I've thrown in two extra wraiths into each squad meaning 3 whip coils, 1 caster and 2 regulars for each squad. Leaves me with 115 points to spare, which I'm still trying to figure out what it should go on.
And since I herp'd and didn't mention it, points limit is 1750.
I'm having a bit of trouble finding good anti-AV14 options for a Wraith Wing. Rending is great and all, but it's still difficult to destroy an AV14 tank (which, realistically is only the Land Raider and Monolith) with.
15628
Post by: ShotgunFacelift
Anpu-adom wrote:Dytalus,
I'm a big fan of scarabs and spyders in general, but I don't thing they belong in the Wraith Wing army for only one reason: Multi-assaulting the scarabs and wraiths can go really poorly if any power or force weapons don't get whipcoiled.
Theres also a big risk of transferring fearless saves from the scarab combat into the wraith unit if they get multi-charged.
I found that out in my first game with crons with a wych unit multi-charge my scarabs and wraiths. The Wraiths did their job great, but then got slapped with something like 12 fearless saves thanks to the scarabs taking it in the teeth.
I'm still on the fence with scarabs, building a farm takes up too many points and HS Slots, but throwing 1 unit in just for target saturation and general utility against armor sounds good on paper. Each time I've played them they have drawn alot of fire from the wraiths, but I'm still not sure whether to make them a regular feature in the WW list.
The biggest trouble I'm running into is getting the wraiths where they are supposed to go without losing too many to incoming fire. As everyone knows what they do, and that its the only real cc threat (other than the lord(S)) in the army they tend to fixate on knocking them down before they get where I want em. As they take up such a large chunk of points I'm debating giving them a delivery method.
Which points to deep striking monoliths in the mid field (or in their deployment zone if feeling lucky). As Cmac mentioned this could be used to sandwich enemy forceces between the wraiths or the liths and could also be used to move units around the field at will.
(though personally I believe his suggestion was a subtle ruse to guarantee he gets to put all those dark lances to good use)
But then I have the following questions:
1. Does this make nemesor a more viable HQ choice as we can then bring the lith down in the opponents turn, and then re-deploy the wraiths and charge in my turn? (if the opponent reserves anything)
2. Can I charge the Wraiths out of the dimensional gateway?
3. Can I charge scarabs out of the gateway?
(which would be uber  , but would be awesome)
Thoughts on a Lith Heavy 2k WW List:
HQ: 385
- Overlord + Gauntlet + Warscythe + CCB
-- HOD Cryptek w/ Pulse
- Dlord + Shackles
FAST: 430
- 5 x Wraith
-- 3 x WC
-- 2 x Pistol
- 5 x Wraith
-- 3 x WC
-- 2 x Pistol
Troop: 660
4 x 5man Warrior Squads
4 x NS
Heavy: 400
2 x Monolith
This leaves 125 points to spare which I'm unsure about where to place.
a. I could add a Abarge and spend 25 points on upgrades for the lords
b. I could replace the destroyer lord with a CCB Lord and add 35 points of upgrades elsewhere
The 2 x CCB combo could be usefull as they can either team up on things (6 x Swoop Attacks) or act as line breakers for the wraiths
c. Get an 8 Man unit of Scarabs
If yes to Q3, then this might be the route to go
d. up the numbers on the warrior squads or replace them with immortals
e. Throw in some deathmarks?
Hmmmm, could be interesting and make the army less repetitive
f. Run some heavy destroyers for ranged shooting
52811
Post by: Khornedogg
Here's my 1850 list for wraiths wing.
1 overlord c/w MSS & warscythe on CCB x 2
4 HOD + 1 SP x 2
5 x deathmarks
7 x gauss immortals
5 x tesla immortals
5 x tesla immortals
5 x wraiths, 2 coils + caster x 3
3 x annihilation barges
Treat the HOD's like long fangs stick them in cover then shoot, SP repeat. May replace death marks with with NS for speed and more tesla lovin.
17376
Post by: Zid
jy2 wrote:I'm starting to play wraithwing myself, however, I play a slightly different version than the ones posted here. Rather than running annihilation barges and night scythes, I run MSU-warrior units with 2x6 wraiths and an 8-spyder scarab-farm. At 2K, my list looks like this (I'm still experimenting so you'll see some changes between battle reports):
2K Necrons (My list)
Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
4x Crypteks - 4x Harbingers of Destruction, 1x Solar Pulse
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths -3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths -3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
2x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array
3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
So far, I've only played 2 games with them, one against Chaos and the other against Blood Angels, but I think they complement each other well.
It is an odd list in that it is a very un-necron-like army. Necrons are supposed to be a very good mid-range shooting army. My army is anything but good in shooting. As a matter of fact, my necron army exploits what is possibly necron's biggest weakness - assault. I2 and lack of power weapons...why is my list able to engage the enemy in close combat and still survive? One word....fearlessness. That's right. My army, or most of it at least, can't be swept.
Now why is this army so dangerous, this army with hardly any shooting? Because of what I like to coin as:
Maximum Threat Overload
It's one thing when you have to deal with 1 or 2 main threats at a time. It's something else when you have to deal with 4 - 2 wraith units, scarabs and command barge. My final competitive list will actually have 5 main threats as I will eventually swap out my Destroyer Lord for another Overlord on command barge. But the main thing is that all these threats are really, really fast. I'm talking about guaranteed in-your-face assault on turn 2 and maybe even on turn 1 with the scarabs. The name of the game is to apply a lot of pressure on the opponent and force him to play defensively, which is what I am banking on. If he does so, I have a huge advantage in objectives-based games as I will gain the positional advantage (another phrase I like to coin as Positional Dominance). If not, then it will be an interesting battle.
HQ
-----
Nemesor - 185 pts
4x Crypteks - 4x HOD (1x Pulse) - 160 pts
1x Necron lord - scarabs, scythe, labrynth - 80 pts
D-Lord - Scythe, Scarabs, Weave - 160 pts
Troops
----------
5x Warriors - 65 pts
5x Warriors - 65 pts
5x Warriors - 65 pts
5x Warriors - 65 pts
5x Immortals - Tesla - 85 pts
Fast Attack
----------------
10x Scarabs - 150 pts
5x Wraiths - 3x Coils, 1x Pistol - 210 pts
5x Wraiths - 3x Coils, 1x Pistol - 210 pts
Heavy Support
---------------------
3x Spyders - 1x gloom - 165 pts
3x Spyders - 1x gloom - 165 pts
Total: 1830 pts
Basically my version of your list Jy from my playtest games ( seen Crons vs Stormravens and Crons vs Daemons and Crons vs DoA Angels) and learning what works where. I'm a HUGE fan of nemesor; hes got great utility and makes a unit very survivable with his orb and ability to soak up wounds (I liken him to Draigo for Paladins). Not to mention his ability to give a unit what it needs when it needs it, while taking away some key abilities from your foes (stealing Furious Charge from angels is always fun!) D-Lords are too beastly and are a steal for their points. I'm also playing with a lord escorting Nemesor as this deters people from assaulting him (his one huge weakness). On top of it all, I have the Teks to throw down. I figure in games where a block of Teks would work better, nemesor will escort them to give them the 4+ RP and soak wounds, while other games the Teks will split up and throw down to take Rhinos, Raiders, etc.
I've found in my games that Wraiths are essential to the livelyhood of a good TAC 'Cron list. They are a great counterassault unit, and also great at aggressive play punching people in the head. I've also learned multiple units of Scarabs is more a hindrance than one large unit. I'm also highly unimpressed by Annihilation Barges, they have a possibility of throwing down some hurt on infantry, but thats about it. Spyders are more well rounded, spawning scarabs, and being a solid threat to tanks and infantry. They are also very hard to move, especially wound allocated.
9345
Post by: Lukus83
So I got a game in yesterday vs a list of Cmacs (mine is my first post of this page). The points value was reduced to 1850 so his list was slightly different, but still extremely competitive.
Some of the things I found:
- TL tesla destructors can be brutal. They aren't always since you really need a 6 to get decent results, but vs AV10 and T3 even arcing can cause serious damage. I believe this is 1 of the reasons ShotgunFacelift got such little mileage from them (he didn't play them as twin-linked).
- Wraiths drew a lot of fire that possibly would otherwise have been directed vs my weaker Troops. I made a lot of saves but equally I was pushing them out with my Troops further back. If he wanted to hit them he would have had to have weathered a lot more Tesla much earlier than he did. One unit drew the fire, the other got to do some serious damage. Managed to get in a brutal multicharge with Scarabs into 3 venoms and 2 units of Trueborn. Really wanted to stay locked and not get shot up by being out in the open next turn so I directed most of my attacks vs the vehicles but no...an exploding venom took out 4 of the 7 Trueborn. Thus the Wraiths died the next turn, but took a lot of firepower off the table in return.
- Vs DE you really can't spread out too much. I made the same mistake last time but figured with the added manoeuvrability of the Night Scythes it would be less of a problem. I was wrong. You really need to pack your guys up so you can advance as a phalanx and hit back hard. I had guys way over the other side doing nothing for 3 turns.
In the end it was actually a pretty close game. One of the biggest things that happened on Turn 3 was 2 units of lances being out of night fight range and then completely fluffing with 2 ravagers. This allowed me to hit back hard on turn 4 with the undamaged (and out of range till this point) Annihilation Barges as well as a Night Scythe that really should have been knocked out. Once that happened the game evened up again with us just taking blows to the chin and lining up again to do it next turn.
In the end he had 1 objective and mine was contested by a damned Venom. By all rights his Venom should not have been there...It got charged by an Overlord with Warscythe hitting on 4's. All missed. I could have played for a possible draw but I figured we would get a turn 6 and wanted to play for a Turn 6 or 7 victory but got stumped when the game ended on Turn 5. I believe (though Cmac can correct me if I'm wrong) that the Venom that went to contest was the only mobile vehicle left on the table. But anyways...that's just dice. Next time Cmac, next time!!!
I also have to say that something I am thinking of playtesting is a list without Wraiths. Now that should really be off the subject of discussion in this thread but I really want to try a list where I have more high strength long ranged guns on the table. Essentially I want to free up some of the Tesla to go after infantry. Namely I will be adding a unit of Immortals with Night Scythe, upgrading my current unit of Warriors to Immortals and giving each unit of Troops 2 HoD Crypteks. This also solves a current problem with the list...Draigowing. Majority strength 7 throughout the list is nice, but adding in some S8 punch is better. I will be losing a lot of cc punch (what am I saying...I'm losing all of it) but equally I go full MSU with a lot of mobility and some serious firepower.
44333
Post by: junk
So Lukus, you are abandoning the wraith wing! That's at least a very solid piece of feedback about the list. Necrons are definitely a shooting army, so wanting to capitalize on that is totally a respectable decision. I'd like it if you continued to post your results with a non-wraith list so we can all compare experiences.
I've been having a lot of luck with the wraiths in the last few games i've played (got an incomplete, moral victory against a melta-spam vulkan list today) but I'm afraid that it's all just been luck so far... the dice have been falling my way a lot lately; passing more than my statistical expectation of 3++ saves.
So far I've put up nothing but Ws in the last 4 days against nearly every flavor of space marines, even tabling 2; The ork fight I had scheduled got rain-checked. This weekend I'm up against a very weird inquisition army, and i'm trying to get a 'nid fight soon.
So far I've turned around on the Tesla destructors - but preferring night scythes to annihilation barges. I can't wait for those models to come out, all my conversion attempts have been abysmal and I've been running 'counts as' with devilfish or chimeras, depending on my opponent's preference (they always choose the devilfish)
I think my other armies are getting jealous of the attention my necrons have been getting; played my old stand by CSM list last night and I got my face slaughtered by the same drop pod army I wiped off the table with my wraith wing.
51131
Post by: Dytalus
I played WW against Dark Angels yesterday. Wraiths destroyed everything that came their way when combined with a Destroyer Lord. Even though (for some reason which escapes me) I deep striked a unit of them which ended up doing nothing all game, the other unit laid claim to a squad of Assault Marines, a Company Commander and half a tactical squad by the end of turn 3. And that was with the lucky bastid passing all the Ld checks for MSS. The amount of heavy weapons fire they soaked up was amazing, and helped me win the game without a doubt.
Annihilation Barges are worth every point, and I can't wait to get some Night Scythes to test them out. Tesla Destructors are deliciously powerful. Between two Barges I averaged about 6 hits per round of shooting from each thanks to re rolling misses.
I'm hoping to get a Guard game up between now and New Year, so I'll report back then.
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
It seems evident that wraiths are clearly well worth their points in any list just for the sake of how much fire they draw AND survive through. It is also starting to seem like spamming as many tesla destruction as possible is the way to go.
I see the scarab farm doing well also but I think they both match up very differently. I still think that against a keen opponent scarabs won't help the wraiths as well as having another unit of wraiths as others have pointed out they just give an opponent an easy out in assault do to fearless saves. They also require or at least should have spyders which soak up your slots.
I also have a question for those who have used the scarabs with the WW, how do you find their mobility? I mean I know they are fast but they are also beasts now which means they can't jump over a smart screen like the wraiths can. I just feel like a smart bubble wrap unit would also stagger your assault. Food for thought.
17376
Post by: Zid
Red Corsair wrote:It seems evident that wraiths are clearly well worth their points in any list just for the sake of how much fire they draw AND survive through. It is also starting to seem like spamming as many tesla destruction as possible is the way to go.
I see the scarab farm doing well also but I think they both match up very differently. I still think that against a keen opponent scarabs won't help the wraiths as well as having another unit of wraiths as others have pointed out they just give an opponent an easy out in assault do to fearless saves. They also require or at least should have spyders which soak up your slots.
I also have a question for those who have used the scarabs with the WW, how do you find their mobility? I mean I know they are fast but they are also beasts now which means they can't jump over a smart screen like the wraiths can. I just feel like a smart bubble wrap unit would also stagger your assault. Food for thought.
Actually Scarabs work very well with Wraiths when used properly; they either string out and wreck a bunch of vehicles, soak up fire that would be otherwise pointed at your wraiths (and typically you will have 18+ scarab bases by the time your opponent starts on them), or can tie up vital units that you don't want shooting at you ( IG heavy teams, Longfangs, Broadsides, crisis suits, etc.). The biggest bonus is you can still spawn while they're locked in CC. Not to mention the fact that Spyders themselves are to be reckoned with both in CC and survivability. Wraiths mesh well with them, backing up assaults, or killing what spills out. Scarabs are FAR more reliable in popping vehicles than Destructors in my experience. Combined with Nemesor, 20+ furious charging scarab bases will work over most things.
44333
Post by: junk
Zid wrote:Red Corsair wrote:It seems evident that wraiths are clearly well worth their points in any list just for the sake of how much fire they draw AND survive through. It is also starting to seem like spamming as many tesla destruction as possible is the way to go.
I see the scarab farm doing well also but I think they both match up very differently. I still think that against a keen opponent scarabs won't help the wraiths as well as having another unit of wraiths as others have pointed out they just give an opponent an easy out in assault do to fearless saves. They also require or at least should have spyders which soak up your slots.
I also have a question for those who have used the scarabs with the WW, how do you find their mobility? I mean I know they are fast but they are also beasts now which means they can't jump over a smart screen like the wraiths can. I just feel like a smart bubble wrap unit would also stagger your assault. Food for thought.
Actually Scarabs work very well with Wraiths when used properly; they either string out and wreck a bunch of vehicles, soak up fire that would be otherwise pointed at your wraiths (and typically you will have 18+ scarab bases by the time your opponent starts on them), or can tie up vital units that you don't want shooting at you ( IG heavy teams, Longfangs, Broadsides, crisis suits, etc.). The biggest bonus is you can still spawn while they're locked in CC. Not to mention the fact that Spyders themselves are to be reckoned with both in CC and survivability. Wraiths mesh well with them, backing up assaults, or killing what spills out. Scarabs are FAR more reliable in popping vehicles than Destructors in my experience. Combined with Nemesor, 20+ furious charging scarab bases will work over most things.
My WW is 2x6 Wraiths and 10 Scarabs. Lately I've been running 1 spyder just to get the extra 3" on the scarab swarm and repair the barges/scythes if they suffer weapon destroyed results, bringing the scarab section of the list up to 215.
I think that the scarabs complement the wraiths very well, able to tarpit most infantry and strip vehicles to their frame; being beasts, their threat radius is enormous, and they end up being a high priority target that I don't mind losing, drawing S6+ fire away from the units I really care about.
I haven't had a single loss yet with this list:
Anrakyr in CCB
Destroyer Lord w Scarabs
Pulse-tek
Lance-tek
2x6 wraiths
1x10 tesla eternals
2x5 gauss immortals
2x night scythes
10 scarabs
2x A.barges
(At 2000, I add a spyder and a night scythe.)
As JY2 pointed out, it's 'threat overload' everything needs to be dealt with, and while everything works well together, nothing relies on anything else to be effective, so while your opponent has to make difficult decisions every round, you don't care what he chooses.
17376
Post by: Zid
junk wrote:Zid wrote:Red Corsair wrote:It seems evident that wraiths are clearly well worth their points in any list just for the sake of how much fire they draw AND survive through. It is also starting to seem like spamming as many tesla destruction as possible is the way to go.
I see the scarab farm doing well also but I think they both match up very differently. I still think that against a keen opponent scarabs won't help the wraiths as well as having another unit of wraiths as others have pointed out they just give an opponent an easy out in assault do to fearless saves. They also require or at least should have spyders which soak up your slots.
I also have a question for those who have used the scarabs with the WW, how do you find their mobility? I mean I know they are fast but they are also beasts now which means they can't jump over a smart screen like the wraiths can. I just feel like a smart bubble wrap unit would also stagger your assault. Food for thought.
Actually Scarabs work very well with Wraiths when used properly; they either string out and wreck a bunch of vehicles, soak up fire that would be otherwise pointed at your wraiths (and typically you will have 18+ scarab bases by the time your opponent starts on them), or can tie up vital units that you don't want shooting at you ( IG heavy teams, Longfangs, Broadsides, crisis suits, etc.). The biggest bonus is you can still spawn while they're locked in CC. Not to mention the fact that Spyders themselves are to be reckoned with both in CC and survivability. Wraiths mesh well with them, backing up assaults, or killing what spills out. Scarabs are FAR more reliable in popping vehicles than Destructors in my experience. Combined with Nemesor, 20+ furious charging scarab bases will work over most things.
My WW is 2x6 Wraiths and 10 Scarabs. Lately I've been running 1 spyder just to get the extra 3" on the scarab swarm and repair the barges/scythes if they suffer weapon destroyed results, bringing the scarab section of the list up to 215.
I think that the scarabs complement the wraiths very well, able to tarpit most infantry and strip vehicles to their frame; being beasts, their threat radius is enormous, and they end up being a high priority target that I don't mind losing, drawing S6+ fire away from the units I really care about.
I haven't had a single loss yet with this list:
Anrakyr in CCB
Destroyer Lord w Scarabs
Pulse-tek
Lance-tek
2x6 wraiths
1x10 tesla eternals
2x5 gauss immortals
2x night scythes
10 scarabs
2x A.barges
(At 2000, I add a spyder and a night scythe.)
As JY2 pointed out, it's 'threat overload' everything needs to be dealt with, and while everything works well together, nothing relies on anything else to be effective, so while your opponent has to make difficult decisions every round, you don't care what he chooses.
Thats a decent list, my issue is A-barges haven't done much in any of my games, and I'm NOT a fan of Scythes in the least. Anrakyr is OK but I feel he just doesn't provide the synergy with the list that Nemesor does. Of course, different things work for different people, and different metas make different lists work well.
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.
9345
Post by: Lukus83
I would be happy to keep posting my results. I am not completely abandoning Wraithwing, just playtesting something different to see if I can make the list more competitive. As it stands I find Tesla Destructors a great weapon when dealing with infantry but find them slightly lacking when you need a vehicle destroyed...they tend to wrack up damage results more than anything else. By adding in some dedicated S8 (with some AP) for vehicle popping not only am I getting some defense vs Draigowing, I'm also freeing up some Tesla for infantry which is where I want them. The weakness of this is I lose practically all cc ability but at the same time going full MSU means I can rely on getting multiple rounds of shooting vs units that do get the charge, provided I utilize my mobility to the fullest. Whether it will work or not is something that (I feel) needs to be tested.
44333
Post by: junk
Wrapped up an impromptu christmas eve game vs. mech guard a couple hours ago. Nothing I expected to happen actually happened, and while I did score a win, I learned very little about the wraith wing.
Here's the quick and dirty:
Against 6+ chimeras and 4 tanks. Capture and Control. Spearhead. Acting second.
Positioned my wraiths in an offensive stance, shielding my scarabs for an alpha rush. My entire army a tight, aggressive knot, trying to push diagonally through center field. I use a pulse turn 1, and he searchlights my lead wraith squad... after a full round of concentrated shooting, ended up killing 4.
My turn, I can only reach 1 chimera with my scarabs, wreck it. Tesla Destructor fire stuns almost his entire front line. I then lose the entire scarab unit to a single hellhound template. At this point, I'm pretty excited because it looks like it's really going to be an impossible fight for me.
But then Anrakyr gets revenge by using his hellhound to barbeque 3 chimeras. Wrecking, stunning, and immobilizing them.
As the game progresses, my opponent unsuccessfully tries to wreck my ccb and kill my wraiths, but neither is happening; meanwhile every round my tesla destructors have the freedom to rain stuns and shakes down all over his line.
Despite insane firepower, I only lose a handful of models throughout the game. Because Anrakyr was blessed by the dice gods, I managed to use IG's own tanks against him every turn after the 1st. It wasn't until turns 4 and 5 that I started losing my own vehicles, but by then the entire battle was taking place in my opponent's deployment zone, and my objective was secure.
The point of all this is, there was no way I should have won, but once again, the dice came down in favor of the wraiths, and we called it before the bottom of the fifth.
I took a big risk with an 'alpha strike' deployment, and the wraiths became a massive heatsink that kept all the pressure off the remainder of my army. In 3 turns of moves and assaults, despite all the fire, the wraiths were in the back field wrecking everything.
All I really learned was that anrakyr is a dastardly villain, and I am never taking him out of my list (until maybe next time, when he doesn't work 100% of the time)
23113
Post by: jy2
Zid wrote:
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.
Don't forget Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. IMO, they are still the top dogs and the true tier-1 armies. Necrons are not quite there yet. Honestly, I'm not sure if my wraithwing can beat my Crowe-Purifiers or even my Draigowing armies and it may have problems against a manticore list run by a savvy IG general.
----------------------------------------------
Lately, I've been playing around with a new idea to make my Maximum Threat Overload wraithwing build even scarier - Doom Scythes! So far, I've only played 1 game with it against Sisters of Battle ( battle report here) and need to test out more games, but I think they complement my list just as well as any other unit.
This is the list that I ran:
2K Necrons (My list)
Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils (Had extra 5pts left)
3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
It's now got 6 really fast threats - command barge, scarabs, 2x wraiths and 2x doom scythes - to really crank up the pressure on my opponent. Eventually, when I finish building my 2nd command barge, I will swap out the destroyer lord and get rid of some of the upgrades on my overlord to add a 7th threat to my army.
I'm hoping to test out this build next week against Reecius' tournament-winning, anti-meta 6-leman russ IG army. Check out his tactica here. I think it would make for a great fight.
44333
Post by: junk
Killer Batrep so far Jy2, what a treat, doom scythes and sisters of battle, I can't wait to see the conclusion.
We discussed the possibility of a full scythewing pretty early on in this thread; running 4 night scythes and 2 doom scythes, but it (the idea) got shot down pretty fast, on the grounds that the scythes would get shot down too fast. Glad to see the doom scythes working!
Looks like a massacre so far. Definitely fits your 'threat overload' style!
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
I still think the scythes are an awesome idea in a list, the key is making sure your other threats can't be ignored. Usually with two wrath units and scarabs I don't think they can be.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Red Corsair wrote:I still think the scythes are an awesome idea in a list, the key is making sure your other threats can't be ignored. Usually with two wrath units and scarabs I don't think they can be.
+1.
Every game I've seen them in, Scythes dish out a stupid amount of firepower for the cost. If you force your opponents shooting with wriaths and scarabs, those scythes will do a lot of damage over the course of the game.
Hey, can captain "I steal your tank" do it from inside a transport?
-Matt
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
It requires LOS so if it is an open topped vehicle then yes.
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Post by: Zid
jy2 wrote:Zid wrote:
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.
Don't forget Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. IMO, they are still the top dogs and the true tier-1 armies. Necrons are not quite there yet. Honestly, I'm not sure if my wraithwing can beat my Crowe-Purifiers or even my Draigowing armies and it may have problems against a manticore list run by a savvy IG general.
I'm going off things I myself can play, all my lists have been tried and true against IG (not so much GK, only played them twice). Other armies it would have to be play as I go... I get ONE game a week if I'm lucky, so its kinda hard to get a ton of test games in (back when I started I was able to get 4-5 games per week in)
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Post by: Darkwynn
jy2 wrote:Zid wrote:
The way I look at lists I want to run is "if I play this list, can it beat my Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Daemons competative lists more times than not?" If the answers maybe, I test it. If the answers No, I scrap it. If the answers yes in any form, I test it against others.
Don't forget Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. IMO, they are still the top dogs and the true tier-1 armies. Necrons are not quite there yet. Honestly, I'm not sure if my wraithwing can beat my Crowe-Purifiers or even my Draigowing armies and it may have problems against a manticore list run by a savvy IG general.
----------------------------------------------
Lately, I've been playing around with a new idea to make my Maximum Threat Overload wraithwing build even scarier - Doom Scythes! So far, I've only played 1 game with it against Sisters of Battle ( battle report here) and need to test out more games, but I think they complement my list just as well as any other unit.
This is the list that I ran:
2K Necrons (My list)
Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge
1x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse
Destroyer Lord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, Weave
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
Night Scythe
10x Canoptek Scarabs
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils (Had extra 5pts left)
3x Canoptek Spyders - Claw Array, Gloom Prism
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
It's now got 6 really fast threats - command barge, scarabs, 2x wraiths and 2x doom scythes - to really crank up the pressure on my opponent. Eventually, when I finish building my 2nd command barge, I will swap out the destroyer lord and get rid of some of the upgrades on my overlord to add a 7th threat to my army.
I'm hoping to test out this build next week against Reecius' tournament-winning, anti-meta 6-leman russ IG army. Check out his tactica here. I think it would make for a great fight.
JY,
Let me know how this goes, I know Reece and I have been going back and forth but I have only fortified my conclusions that Necrons are the worst book GW has ever made. Everything in the book is over priced for what it does because of reanimation protocols. The more games I have played and even against Jwolf I just seeing the book missing a lot of key items. I have gotten to play games were I haven't even lost a model to playing someone with the book. There is just too many problems they have and not enough units to shore up the problem.
23113
Post by: jy2
junk wrote:Killer Batrep so far Jy2, what a treat, doom scythes and sisters of battle, I can't wait to see the conclusion.
We discussed the possibility of a full scythewing pretty early on in this thread; running 4 night scythes and 2 doom scythes, but it (the idea) got shot down pretty fast, on the grounds that the scythes would get shot down too fast. Glad to see the doom scythes working!
Looks like a massacre so far. Definitely fits your 'threat overload' style!
Besides mobility, the night scythes doesn't really add much to your army IMO. I just ran 1 in my army and don't think I will run more than that. The doom scythes performed very well in my first and only game with them so far. As a matter of fact, I would give them my MVP for that game.
Don't be fooled by their AV11 armor. Design your list properly - with night-fight and other fast threats like wraiths, command barges and/or scarabs to complement them and you'd be surprised at their resiliency. But more importantly, you have to go into the game with the mindset that you will lose them after 1 alpha strike. They could be a great part of the offense, but just don't rely on them sticking around. But not to worry, once your wraiths hit enemy lines, they will be too busy to really focus on your scythes.
Zid wrote:
I'm going off things I myself can play, all my lists have been tried and true against IG (not so much GK, only played them twice). Other armies it would have to be play as I go... I get ONE game a week if I'm lucky, so its kinda hard to get a ton of test games in (back when I started I was able to get 4-5 games per week in)
No worries. The true litmus test is grey knights right now. A properly designed GK army run by a competent general is a beast of an army to beat. In such a matchup, I feel necrons will be the underdog (though it is a winnable battle). I myself may play against SabrX with one of us playing my wraithwing and the other playing either my Crowe-Purifiers or Draigowing (or maybe even both!).
Darkwynn wrote:
JY,
Let me know how this goes, I know Reece and I have been going back and forth but I have only fortified my conclusions that Necrons are the worst book GW has ever made. Everything in the book is over priced for what it does because of reanimation protocols. The more games I have played and even against Jwolf I just seeing the book missing a lot of key items. I have gotten to play games were I haven't even lost a model to playing someone with the book. There is just too many problems they have and not enough units to shore up the problem.
When I play against him, I will post my usual battle report. We both probably will, with him providing a video report and me a written one.
I have seen your article, though I must admit I haven't read it completely yet. The only thing I will say for now is don't be too quick to dismiss them. It is still a young codex and people haven't really uncovered a lot of their strengths yet. While you may think that the units there are overpriced, I think it is with good reason. The synergy in that codex is just incredible! Ironically, some of the best units don't even use RP and are incredibly efficient - wraiths and spyders+scarabs. If anything, they are actually too cheap for what they can do.
I agree with Reece that the new necrons are a fun and good codex with actually a lot of depth. And it could definitely be competitive. While I still need to do a lot of testing against some of the stronger tournament builds out there, I can say with confidence that it can hold its own against many of the top lists out there. Only a very few builds will give it problems.
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Post by: whigwam
Wish I had seen this thread sooner. Great discussion so far, a lot of ideas I hadn't considered and will have to ape. It has been encouraging, if not slightly eery, to see other people playing almost the same list I've come up with... My 2000pt list, as it stands:
Anrakyr + Barge (Gauss) [245]
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, MSS, Weave) [160]
3 Cryptek (2 Lance, 1 Lance/Pulse) [125]
10 Immortals (Tesla, Eternals) [170]
5 Immortals (Gauss) + Night Scythe [185]
5 Immortals (Gauss) + Night Scythe [185]
5 Wraiths (3 Coil, 1 Caster) [210]
5 Wraiths (3 Coil, 1 Caster) [210]
10 Scarabs [150]
3 Spyders (Claw, Gloom) [175]
Annihilation Barge (Tesla) [90]
Annihilation Barge (Tesla) [90]
It started as a Scarab farm (2x6 Scarabs and 1x6 Wraiths), but one unit of Scarabs always seemed to be enough. I had also originally fielded another Overlord in CCB and a second Pulse, but something had to give for the extra Wraiths. Plus I was looking to give the Destroyer Lord a try. So far I've been really happy with the list. The Scythes and A. Barges have both excelled taking out Rhinos and MCs and softening up other targets for the Wraiths... I can't get enough of that 36" shooting. It's perfect for hitting back hard after a turn of hiding in the dark. I considered taking a third Scythe, but I'm cautious about putting too many easy KPs on the table. Two obnoxious proxies is probably enough for the time being anyway.
Others have noted the problem with Scarab/Wraith synergy: the multi-charge can blow up in your face. A power fist or force weapon mashing up your Scarabs can absolutely ruin your Wraiths' day ("No Retreat" is not your friend!) I don't think that's a reason to toss Scarabs out though. It's just something to be wary of---they should only be a liability if you let them be. Don't let your opponent get a multi-charge on Scarabs/Wraiths and don't let the Wraiths enter an assault they won't win. It's easy to get carried away with Wraiths, but if you play them conservatively you shouldn't have an issue. Scarabs are well worth the effort too. WW has few options to deal with heavy armor, and you can't do much better in that department than Scarabs. They'll also draw fire like crazy (as others have noted). People are inordinately afraid of the big blob. That's no problem though...I let my Scarabs sit in cover, growing their numbers, and if my opponent is trying to shoot through their 3++ instead of targeting Wraiths, Scythes, and Barges, more power to them!
I'm still trying to find the right balance between Wraiths, Tesla Destructors, and Scarabs/Spyders. I tried to take as many of each as possible without skewing too much one way or the other. The Destructors seem like the most effective shooting available to WW, so I figured I wanted a minimum of four. I see their primary function as taking out light transports, and those tend to be pretty numerous. Wraiths can serve this role too, but it's not what they should want to be doing. They want the goodies inside, and Destructors can give that to them. I could maybe use more Wraiths, but I figured the Destroyer Lord should pull some of their weight here. If I swapped him out for the CCB-Scythelord again, I'd probably add 2 Wraiths to compensate. One thing I am really happy with is the 3x Spyders. Three is just enough that I can build up my Scarab blob to be a real threat, and enough that their assault can still be effective. I've finished off Terminators and other similarly scary assault troops with these guys...the Spyders make a great a counter-charge unit when the Wraiths can't be around. Also a good chance they'll get to repair a Barge at some point, and that would be pretty neat.
Looking forward to hearing more out of this thread. It's been very informative so far...hope I can contribute in some small part. With any luck, I'll be able write-up a BR myself sometime soon...I've got a ton of ideas reading those that others have posted. Always very interesting to see "your" army played through another person's eyes.
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Post by: jy2
Ok, the ultimate showdown has been set between my doom scythe wraithwing necrons against Reecius' anti-meta Imperial Guards ( battle report here). Reece's IG is a little unusual....not at all like the normal vendetta/manticore/chimelta-spam IG you normally see....but that is because it was designed as an "anti-meta" list. Thus, it will make missile-spam, hive-guard-spam, lance-spam and psyfleman-spam MSU armies irrelevant. He took it to a local tournament and won with it. I think his army would make a wonderful test-bed to gauge the competitiveness of my Maximum Threat Overload philosophy and necrons on the whole.
After this battle, I will test it against Grey Knights. If necrons can compete against those 2, then they are definitely a very good army.
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Post by: junk
WhigWam, that is almost exactly the list i've been using for the last 7 games I've played. So far I've got 6 wins and 1 draw (C&C vs Orks). How's it treating you? I still haven't gotten to run it up against nids or draigowing yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
Jy2! Obviously, we all hope to see you run roughshod over the Imperials with the wraithwing, but again, I want to ask about those 5x5 warriors squads? I mean, I get them as scoring units, but do you feel like they contribute anything to the actual game? I find myself dropping a 10 man immortal/eternal squad into the crossfire and coming out sparkling. I'd be nervous about getting those grots in the mix.
[edit] Sorry, 4x5 warriors, didn't realize you'd subbed in the night scythe, so +1 on that.
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Post by: cmac
jy2 wrote:lance-spam
Well, not that one as we don't care about AV 14. From playing against the crons, I currently think the best start for a list is;
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Warriors x 5 (or immortals), Night Scythe
Fill to flavour
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Post by: Lukus83
The biggest problem with this many Night Scythes is the sheer number of points they take up. I find the mobility and damage output staggering, but you need to find the right amount of balance. If planning a WW list you would be up to nearly 1500pts with no HQ or any other support units on the field.
However I do agree with putting as many into a list as you can. This tweaked version (non-WW) for our game tomorrow will have 4. Will be posting results and thoughts here.
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Post by: deviant cadaver
I Have been fallowing along and am grateful for all the input every one has put in. I am switching over from daemons and the list I am working on is similar in a lot of ways , but I have been using 2 ghost arks, 2 CCB, 3 annihilation barges and 1 NS.
The thing I am having trouble fallowing is why every one has chosen night scythes over ghost arks with out much discussion. Instead of paying a warrior tax on the night scythes , why not use them in the open topped ghost arks.
In my games the 5 tesla destructors have worked well backed by gauss suppression and anti troop.
I guess what I am asking Is what am I missing ?
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Post by: junk
Deviant,
The mobility of the Night Scythes complements the high mobility of the wraith wing, but it doesn't mean that a ghost ark is not a valid choice.
It comes down to the principles of the WW.
You're using at least 2x5 units of Jump Infantry, usually 2x6 as either a front line, an anchor, a clean up crew, or an alpha strike; usually fulfilling more than 1 of those functions in a fight.
You're investing around 420-750 points into your wraiths, so you can't put them out there to be focused on unless you have them backed up by additional high priority threats. As Jy2 has named it "maximum threat overload" (MTO from here on).
Ghost Arks bring heavier armor and lots of gauss to the fight, they can also provide critical cover saves, draw fire, and carry a royal court while escorting warriors. All important functions, but they're ponderous. If they escort foot slogging warriors, they're limited by the movement speed of those warriors. If the warriors are embarked in them they can move 12", but they're not shooting. They can deliver warriors who can shoot however, and that alone may be the only way to keep up with the threat bubble created by the wraiths.
Now if you're going to be moving 12" and disembarking to shoot, you're better off with the night scythes. Scythes can move 12" disembark a squad, and still fire the impressive tesla destructors. Now true, the scythe can't rebuild fallen warriors, but it can carry immortals, which are far more durable than warriors, and will less likely need the reconstruction.
Yes, night scythes are flimsier than Ghost Arks vs. shooting attacks, but better vs. assault. The Supersonic ability also allows for a greater late game contribution than the ghost arks, able to contest objectives or claim them if transporting troops.
Wraith wings can be supported by both warriors and immortals, night scythes or ghost arks, and it's really a question of which flavor WW you want to build.
If you want to rock warriors and Imotekh or Nemesor, or double phaerons, and play a shooting game using wraiths for counter assault and clean up, by all means, ghost arks are perfect in that regard.
If you want to get right up in your opponent's face and force hard decisions, or sneak around his flanks to whittle away from a defensive stance, go night scythes.
Personally, my night scythes end up being such low priority targets for my opponents, that I often still have them both (I currently play 2 night scythes and 2 barges) at the end of the game.
I've found my enemies prefer the following target priority:
1. Scarabs / Wraiths (depending on mechanized content)
3. Command Barges (Anrakyr is a fire magnet for mech armies)
4. Gauss Barges / Night Scythes (marines hate barges)
6. Immortals
Often I try to arrange it that my Barges cover my night scythes. While my night scythes dump their immortals into shooting range. It creates a wall of fire with a solid CC punch.
I worry that with my Gorilla style (rather than a more spread out Guerrilla style) Ghost arks won't be effective until a turn after the rest of my army is in position. Obviously, if I played a 10 Cryptek List, I'd want 2 ghost arks to house those lances, and I'd use wraiths far more defensively.
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Post by: whigwam
junk wrote:WhigWam, that is almost exactly the list i've been using for the last 7 games I've played. So far I've got 6 wins and 1 draw (C&C vs Orks). How's it treating you? I still haven't gotten to run it up against nids or draigowing yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
Well, I'm sure I haven't got in nearly as much testing as you. I only doubled up on Wraiths and added Night Scythes recently...originally I was more much Scarab/Spyder oriented (and also had Immortals footslogging, double Scythelords, lots of Lanceteks). So far I've only got in 3 test games with my Wraithwing (one double Lash CSM, one Berzerker-heavy CSM, one Plain Jane SM), but they have all been decisive victories. I'd like to test against more competitive lists, but I don't think my Necrons will be leaving the house until I have better Night Scythe proxies. So, just games at home (with friends) for now.
I did get a game in the other day though (vs. double Lash). FWIW, my thoughts from that game:
Night Fight and 36" shooting makes for a small but effective alpha strike. My Destructors were able to take out Daemon Princes and Rhinos before either were a threat (only one Prince got a Lash off--pulled my Eternals close, but not close enough to finish off the unit. The surviving Eternals put the last wound on the DP next turn). I'm tempted to try more Scythes and a second Pulse to maximize this, but the points go so fast...
Scarabs and Anrakyr can have a great (and early) impact on your opponent's model placement. Obviously they don't want to leave tanks within charge range of Scarabs (especially not sitting still), but Anrakyr's MitM means they also need to be mindful of where they leave their guns pointed. For instance, a savvy opponent probably won't want to leave their Demolisher with LOS to their own Terminators...or their Landraider looking at the rear of two transports (last game, it was a Defiler pointed at CSM/Plaguemarines). If you play Anrakyr with this in mind, you can force your opponent to make some really difficult decisions, e.g. "do I point the gun at X and leave my own unit in LOS?" This to me is Anrakyr's biggest appeal--not that the Warscythe, Tachyon Arrow, and Eternals boost are anything to sniff at. Really, Anrakyr has so much to his credit that it makes the limitations of the CCB-Scythelord stand in stark contrast. This is the main reason I moved away from a second CCB: while CCB-Anrakyr feels well worth his 245 points, the CCB-Scythelord feels incredibly overcosted...I kept thinking "I'm paying HOW MUCH for that Sweep Attack??" and soon the Destroyer Lord was welcomed with open arms.
The combined mobility of Night Scythes, Barges, Wraiths, and Scarabs make for a very fast list. Combine that with the Pulse/Destructor alpha strike, and Scarabs/Anrakyr screwing with your opponent's movement, and it seems like WW should be able to quickly establish board control in many match-ups. I think this is a big plus to the list as Wraiths and Scarabs both hugely benefit when you control the pace of the game--when you are the one deciding who assaults what.
deviant cadaver wrote:The thing I am having trouble fallowing is why every one has chosen night scythes over ghost arks with out much discussion. Instead of paying a warrior tax on the night scythes , why not use them in the open topped ghost arks.
I've never believed in taking anything as a "tax"...if people are taking 5x Warriors just for the Scythe, I think that's a mistake. Every unit should be functional or it is points wasted. In my list, I don't take Immortals just to get the Scythes---I want them to be able to contribute to the fight as well. I know there's only so much 5 Immortals and a Cryptek can do, but a disembark/rapid-fire from them could be enough to finish off a weakened unit or contest an objective for a turn or two. They might be left holding a backfield objective in some games (in which case, at least they're still shooting their Lance), but there should be plenty of occasions where they can be put to work fighting.
Now, I like Ghost Arks, but I don't think they have a very obvious place in WW. They can work if you build your list with them in mind as junk says (footslogging Warriors/Phaerons/Stalkers/other ponderous, shooty things), but at that point I think the Wraiths makes more sense moving into a support role. So instead of a list that supports Wraiths, it would be a list supported by Wraiths. The thing is, I think Wraiths offer a lot to a Ghost Ark (protecting the vehicle and its contents from assault) while a Ghost Ark doesn't offer much to Wraiths (short-ranged/low-power fire support, unable to reliably open transports). A Night Scythe, OTOH, does exactly what Wraiths need: opens transports and softens up potential targets for assault. And it has the speed/range to be everywhere fast-moving Wraiths need it to be. A Ghost Ark is much more limited in that respect.
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Post by: cmac
whigwam wrote:The combined mobility of Night Scythes, Barges, Wraiths, and Scarabs make for a very fast list.
Agree, but from what I have seen, barges aren't fast...
This is my point on barges not being the unit to provide tesla fire in a WW list. In fact, I don't believe a WW list needs any heavies. As you say, those points go fast.
If EVERYTHING can go quickly, you get to play THAT wonderful game. This would greatly enchance the list IMO with the ability to take the 80% of my army vrs 50% of yours (an approximate) and the nightfighting to help facilitate this.
I hearby label this Fast Dark Overload or FDO from here on ;-)
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Post by: whigwam
cmac wrote:whigwam wrote:The combined mobility of Night Scythes, Barges, Wraiths, and Scarabs make for a very fast list.
Agree, but from what I have seen, barges aren't fast...
This is my point on barges not being the unit to provide tesla fire in a WW list. In fact, I don't believe a WW list needs any heavies. As you say, those points go fast.
If EVERYTHING can go quickly, you get to play THAT wonderful game. This would greatly enchance the list IMO with the ability to take the 80% of my army vrs 50% of yours (an approximate) and the nightfighting to help facilitate this.
I hearby label this Fast Dark Overload or FDO from here on ;-)
Sorry, I should have been more specific! I meant the CCB--I know the Annihilation Barge is not fast (although that is a common misconception). Still, with 36" on its main gun, it doesn't need to be very fast! You might be right that WW doesn't need A. Barges though. If I find that my troops are insufficient in number, I would probably be willing to try 2-3 more Night Scythes instead (no idea what else I'll remove...)
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Post by: junk
I've been thinking about that a lot recently. When second wave drops, I'm going to shuffle my list to feature at least 3 night scythes, as opposed to the 2/2 scythe/barge split I have now.
I like the barges at the moment because they're expendible hard targets that wreck infantry and stun lock transports, (and because I have the models) providing a high priority target for your opponent, but you don't care if you lose.
At 1850 I play only 3 troops, 10 Tesla eternals, and 2x5 Gauss Immortals with Lance-teks; so I can only squeeze 3 scythes in. I like having the big block of 10 eternals, because they contribute to the offensive line and complement my aggressive play style with the WW.
Anrakyr on a CCB, though expensive as an HQ block (with 2 lance-teks and a DLord with Shackles) has proven himself so many times that I don't think I can drop him to a regular overlord to free up points for a 4th scythe/troop (and potentially 2 more lance-teks)
I absolutely love the effectiveness of the scythes in every regard; offensive, defensive, maneuvering, transporting, deep striking, claiming/contesting, fire support; for a 10 point premium over the VERY cost effective annihilation barges.
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Post by: Lukus83
Ok so here come some results from my non WraithWing list vs Cmac's DE. This time he got the jump on me by not using a fully mechanized list. He was playtesting a mixed WWP list (and just as I had made room for a lot of S8 to deal with vehicles too).
I won't bore you with all the details but the basic rundown is:
- Cmac got first turn, I failed to steal and he came on Turn 1 with 3 Ravagers form the table edge while he dropped a WWP far forward in my Deployment zone from his Haemi in a raider (deployed centre of table). I came on with everything Turn 1 and disembarked from my Night Scythes with my Lance Crypteks as I wanted to drop his Ravagers (something I know from experience is that WWP DE do struggle with anti-tank) since they had Night Shields instead of the FlickerFields . Unfortunately this put me close to the WWP in return. If any of his Wyches or 19 strong Hellion (including the Baron) had come out on turn 2 I would have been in for a world of hurt...But they didn't. I got some results on the Ravagers and was able to then fall back. Turn 3 everything came on and Hellions with a unit of Wyches made up a nasty multicharge tagging 2 Night Scythes and 2 units of Immortals. Unfortunately for Cmac he rolled poorly vs the Immortals on 1 side and then his Wches proceeded to explode a Night Scythe. A 6" explosion later and I had won combat by 4. Wyches ran away (who had not actually lost a model) but the Hellions stayed locked (and were down to about 8 models by this point with the Baron losing his Shadowfield in the process). After this it was just a matter of applying some Tesla to his shooty units and charging in with infantry to make sure I finished off the Hellions.
I feel I got extremely lucky this game. Cmac pushed me to take a risk by giving me the chance to shoot his Ravagers, but by doing so I would expose myself. But then if I hadn't taken the bait they had pushed far enough forward that night fight wasn't going to be a consideration on Turn 2.
So the big question is: Would Wraiths have made a difference? Probably. I actually made a mistake early on by forgetting about my Scarabs who could have screened my Immortals so I had to deploy them out in the middle of nowhere. Wraiths would have done the same thing, but if I had Wraiths I wouldn't have had so many Lanceteks so maybe I wouldn't have pushed to the portal for shots on Ravagers. Game would certainly have been different.
Overall I'm actually happier having the extra shots in. The CC punch and extra threat the Wraiths bring is nice, but I feel you gain more by having some S8 and added mobility with Troops choices.
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Post by: junk
Those s8 shots are definitely nice to have; but nothing in the codex can take the amount of punishment that a wraith screen can resist at 250/squad.
I could have really used some extra s8 in my match today vs. IG. I ended up with a draw because I couldn't put the screws to enough of his mech.
I'll have to give it a shot and compare for myself, but in the meantime, keep it up and thanks for the input!
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Post by: Anpu-adom
Lukus, I have a question. Didn't you have anything to babysit the WWP? I mean, if you sit a squad of warriors on top he can't deploy anything through it, and his reserves get insta-killed.
Or am I missing something?
23113
Post by: jy2
BTW, my game against Reecius' guards is done and posted in the battle reports forum. You can find the link above in my previous post.
junk wrote:
Jy2! Obviously, we all hope to see you run roughshod over the Imperials with the wraithwing, but again, I want to ask about those 5x5 warriors squads? I mean, I get them as scoring units, but do you feel like they contribute anything to the actual game? I find myself dropping a 10 man immortal/eternal squad into the crossfire and coming out sparkling. I'd be nervous about getting those grots in the mix.
[edit] Sorry, 4x5 warriors, didn't realize you'd subbed in the night scythe, so +1 on that.
Yeah, they actually do. Although they don't contribute a whole lot to the offense, in an objectives-based game, they are actually a threat. How so, you may ask? Because they force my opponents to have to choose. Either deal with my offensive units and let my warriors take the objectives, or deal with my scoring warriors and let my offensive units wreak havoc to their army. The 5-man MSU warriors fit perfectly into my strategy of Maximum Threat Overload. Small enough that they should be ignored, but ignore them to your peril in objectives-based games. In annihilation, they hide and stay in reserves and it is not a huge loss in offensive capability. After all, they're only 260pts from my 2K army. The rest of the 1740pts of my army just cannot be ignored (well, except the spyders until they get close).
So far in almost all of the games that I've played (which I admit isn't too many), my opponents have not had the luxury of trying to take out my 4x5 warrior squads.
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Post by: Lukus83
Surrounding a WWP doesn't destroy reserves, they can simply choose to come in from a table edge. And although surrounding it would have a been nice, most of his units were Jump Infantry. They could have just jumped right over me.
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Post by: junk
Got another draw with a WW vs. IG - the brief details:
I tried to come at the IG player up the long table edge into his chimera heavy right flank, but failed to stun enough vehicles in the early rounds to stop him from pulling them aside to give his tanks clear shots. He focused on all my tesla destructors in the early rounds. While my wraiths chewed through his troops, his tanks/psyker battle squads blew away mine. By turn 5 neither one of us had any scoring units left.
To try out a different necron build for comparison I built an Imotekh/warrior list, 2x6 scarabs 5 spyders, 1x6 wraiths, D.Lord with resorb and Praetorians, 35 warriors, arks, the whole deal. I was soundly defeated by salamanders. Imotekh kept night fighting up for 4 rounds, but there's no reason to have it going for 4 rounds. The lightning was cute, but not effective. The praetorians need an invulnerable save. It was a really sad last game for my New York visit. I wish I'd played the WW.
Anyway, my results with the Anrakyr led Wraith Wing for these last two and a half weeks have been phenomenal; IG and Orks are responsible for my only 2 draws with it, otherwise all wins.
I'm heading out on the road for about 6 weeks, and I did not, unfortunately, get to go up against Dark Eldar or Tyranids, so that will remain an X-Factor to me unless I can find a FLGS in my travels that will lend me some toy robots.
The handful of you who participated in this thread, I'd love to keep hearing your results with the WW. And come february, I'll hopefully be back in Cali with a fully painted list ready to jump into some tournaments. Automatically Appended Next Post: jy2 wrote:
BTW, my game against Reecius' guards is done and posted in the battle reports forum. You can find the link above in my previous post.
junk wrote:
Jy2! Obviously, we all hope to see you run roughshod over the Imperials with the wraithwing, but again, I want to ask about those 5x5 warriors squads? I mean, I get them as scoring units, but do you feel like they contribute anything to the actual game? I find myself dropping a 10 man immortal/eternal squad into the crossfire and coming out sparkling. I'd be nervous about getting those grots in the mix.
[edit] Sorry, 4x5 warriors, didn't realize you'd subbed in the night scythe, so +1 on that.
Yeah, they actually do. Although they don't contribute a whole lot to the offense, in an objectives-based game, they are actually a threat. How so, you may ask? Because they force my opponents to have to choose. Either deal with my offensive units and let my warriors take the objectives, or deal with my scoring warriors and let my offensive units wreak havoc to their army. The 5-man MSU warriors fit perfectly into my strategy of Maximum Threat Overload. Small enough that they should be ignored, but ignore them to your peril in objectives-based games. In annihilation, they hide and stay in reserves and it is not a huge loss in offensive capability. After all, they're only 260pts from my 2K army. The rest of the 1740pts of my army just cannot be ignored (well, except the spyders until they get close).
So far in almost all of the games that I've played (which I admit isn't too many), my opponents have not had the luxury of trying to take out my 4x5 warrior squads.
Awesome report, Hopefully when I'm back out in Cali I can take a trip up the coast to sink my wraiths into some of that bay area competition.
What's your take on the doom scythes now that you've used them a couple times?
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Post by: jy2
junk wrote: Awesome report, Hopefully when I'm back out in Cali I can take a trip up the coast to sink my wraiths into some of that bay area competition.
What's your take on the doom scythes now that you've used them a couple times?
I really like them. They fit in my list like a glove and are a huge threat that my opponents just cannot ignore. 2 command barges, 2 wraiths, 2 doom scythes and 1 scarabs - all are equally dangerous to most armies and all are super-fast. I think they are going to be a permanent mainstay of my competitive necron army.
Bay area has some good competition. In NorCal (northern Calif), there's me, Reecius, Janthkin, SabrX and the crew from Zero Comp Posse, who are all great players.
Or if you go down south to SoCal, there are even more awesome players there.
BTW, here's a true test for my Wraithwing army against perhaps one of the toughest armies out there....Grey Knights!
The Grey Knight Challenge Part I - 2K MTO Necrons vs Draigowing!
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Post by: deviant cadaver
I see the difference now between a WW army and a shooting army that uses wraiths as a counter assault unit.
In HQs the WW wants a destroyer lord to give a better CC punch to a units of wraiths , while a shooting want another overlord for the second night pulse.
In transports the NS and cargo are better for softening units and opening transports for the wraiths. A shooting list wants the GA to keep the opponent at 24".
An assault army is going to be a tougher match up for WW more so if they have some kind of mobility to stop the WW player from picking his fights DE come to mind. I could see the doom scythes helping here by really hurting a death star before it can do to much. Still not sure about them though.
Rhino rush or a long range army are probably good match ups for WW suppressing tanks and picking fights as the other army has to move at different speeds and getting in close fast are its strong points.
A shooting armies bad match up well be with GK or another army that us happy to shoot at 24".
The good match ups will be almost any thing that is not highly mobile.
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Post by: junk
deviant cadaver wrote:I see the difference now between a WW army and a shooting army that uses wraiths as a counter assault unit.
In HQs the WW wants a destroyer lord to give a better CC punch to a units of wraiths , while a shooting want another overlord for the second night pulse.
In transports the NS and cargo are better for softening units and opening transports for the wraiths. A shooting list wants the GA to keep the opponent at 24".
An assault army is going to be a tougher match up for WW more so if they have some kind of mobility to stop the WW player from picking his fights DE come to mind. I could see the doom scythes helping here by really hurting a death star before it can do to much. Still not sure about them though.
Rhino rush or a long range army are probably good match ups for WW suppressing tanks and picking fights as the other army has to move at different speeds and getting in close fast are its strong points.
A shooting armies bad match up well be with GK or another army that us happy to shoot at 24".
The good match ups will be almost any thing that is not highly mobile.
Good insight.
I'm excited by Jy2's use of Doom Scythes and multiple scoring units to force the opponent to play on his back.
I've had good results with the Tesla-spam of 4-5 tesla destructors, but it has trouble popping vehicles, instead tends to stunlock (which isn't terrible); however with the wraiths and scarabs taking up such a high target priority, I think Jy2 has the best of it with the doom scythes; as they'll either draw fire from the wraiths and scarabs, or they'll live to get more than one shot each off. I've said it before, if you can get more than one shot off with the doom scythe, it's worth its points.
Anyone have any thoughts on resurrecting the Scythe-wing idea from early in the thread, it was shot down pretty quick, but I've remained curious about how it would perform.
Scythe/Wraithwing hybrid at 2000
Imotekh (225)
4x5 Warriors in Night Scythes (660)
2x6 Wraiths w/ 3 coils, 2 Casters (500)
2 Doom Scythes (350)
10 Scarabs (150)
2 Spyders (115)
This is just a quick mock up to get the idea back up for discussion - Imotekh included for 4+ seize and Extended Night Fight.
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Post by: whigwam
I like the idea. Scythes and WW match well. I'm still not sold on Imotekh for anything but mass Scarab farming though. The 4+ Seize is nice, but you can make your own "first turn" by letting your opponent go first, dropping a Solar Pulse, and positioning for an alpha strike in the dark. Second turn might be pretty useful with multiple Supersonic vehicles anyway. His cost is also unattractive when compared to other HQs that can be "put to work." Destroyer Lord/CCB-Overlord/Anrakyr all add to WW's punch, but Imotekh has little to add other than his special rules (and a one-shot mini-deathray)...that alone makes me really resent dropping all those points on him. I know he's a "force multiplier", I just don't think he multiples enough (or consistently enough).
But enough about Imotekh. Reading Jy2's batreps has gotten me interested in the Doom Scythe as well...(thanks Jy2!) I'm still really skeptical about spending 175 points on a paper airplane with a laser beam, but seeing is believing. The DS is undoubtedly useful for giving an opponent target priority issues (and WW could really use the S10/AP1). I haven't used one yet, but I could see how well they would suit a more aggressive WW. I tried to fit a couple in my existing list and came up with this:
2000 pts.
Anrakyr + Barge (Gauss) [245]
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, MSS, Weave) [160]
1 Cryptek (Lance, Pulse) [55]
10 Immortals (Tesla) [170]
5 Warriors + Night Scythe [165]
5 Warriors + Night Scythe [165]
6 Wraiths (3 Whip, 1 Particle) [245]
5 Wraiths (3 Whip, 1 Particle) [210]
9 Scarabs [135]
2 Spyder [100]
Doom Scythe [175]
Doom Scythe [175]
Not as many Night Scythes as your iteration, junk, but I think it offers more real and immediate threats. Anrakyr, Wraiths, Scarabs, and Doom Scythes will all be high priority targets: 6-7 fast units (depending on whether the D. Lord splits off) that force your opponent to respond. The leftover Scythes, Warriors, Immortals should be able to take/hold/contest objectives without drawing too much attention.
Hopefully I'll get to try this out sometime soon. Still need to get some better Scythe proxies, but don't want to spend a fortune making them (at the moment, I'm considering folding up a few origami crescent moons...yep...)
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Post by: junk
I figured that would be the first suggestion.
I've only used imotekh once, and I found him to be a waste of points; but with half a dozen scythes flying in and out of night fighting range, he's actually a cheap alternative to 2 OverLords and 2 Pulseteks.
My current WW runs Anrakyr in CCB, 1 pulse tek, 1 lance tek, and a Dlord with mindmonkeys. I'm usually thrilled with the performance of that block. Just trying to squeeze max scythes in there means the cuts have to come from somewhere, and it's gotta be HQ because FA and HS are the core.
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Post by: Monster Rain
junk wrote:I figured that would be the first suggestion.
I've only used imotekh once, and I found him to be a waste of points;
I've ran him a couple of times, for the lulz, and he blew up several tanks in the early game with his Lord of the Storm rule. Or as I like to call them: mind bullets.
I will agree that you should not just throw him into an army though. If you build your list with him in mind, I think he can definitely be worth the points.
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Post by: cmac
Played against Immo the other day, my buddy was wraiths and full scarab farm.
So the nightshields I had just put on all my vehicles were points well spent. Each raider was 80 points, Immo "mind shot" 5 of them in total. That's 400 points..
However, 2 squads of wyches and the Baron with hellions were enough for the scarabs with the hellions bringing in surrounding units to the multi combat to take advantage of the plethora of wounds the scarabs give away in combat.
Previous 2 games vrs a shooty cron list have been rough though.
Lukas has been using;
CC Lord in barge x 2
8 HOD Crypteks 2 pulses
4 NS with 5 immortals
10 Scarabs
3 AB
Roughly
First game I tried an experimental WWP list.
Baron
18 Hellions
Scourges x 5 w 2 Heat Lance, x 3
Ravager x 3
Raider with 7 wracks, shattershard Haem with portal
Raider with 3 wracks, liquefier haem and portal.
Wyches x 9, hek, ag
DOW, 2 obj, DE 1st turn.
Got a lovely setup on the first portal near his obj but safe enough it couldn't be blocked. Nec turn he brings all on and drops the troops from the NS to get shots at my Ravagers hiding at the back. Not a great move here. If I had got any cc units on turn 2 he was in for a multicharge to wipe his troops. Only 1 unit of Scourges comes in and suicides to kill a NS.
He realises the mistake and pulls back with the troops. Can still get a good multi charge but its more spread out now and will need to use the vehicles to link it.
Turn 3 all my stuff comes in and I giggle like a school girl. I get a good multicharge in with the hellions and wyches and also to the other side out of the other portal to clear the scarabs.
However, I explode a NS which has a 6" range and kills 9 hellions to ruin my combat res. Boo.
Game went badly after that. I really needed FNP on my units coming out of the portal, that hurt.
Second game Lukas uses the same list, I run wych cult
Wych x 9(8?), hek ag, raider FF x 2
Wych x 8(7?), hek ag, raider FF x 2
Haem w liquefier x 4
Blasterborn x 3, blaster x 3, raider FF x 3
Ravager w FF x 3
It's KP's but I have an aggresive list so not too worried. Manage to refuse flank and im thinking this is great! I line up a command barge with shooting redundancy for some vehicles behind with 20 or so dark light weapons in reasonable night sight range. The barge fails 1 save which is a WD that gets ignored. Sigh. Wyches then charge and flunk after having surrounded it. Boo!
Then he gets to shoot, I lose about 8 KP's that round. Turn 4 im looking at the score and its about 12-6. Hmmm. I get a good round in and bring the score back to 15-14 at the end of the game, necron win.
Analysis;
- scarabs are no problem for DE
- command barges are brutal AND a good fire magnet with the 4+ save (just have to make them), arm 13 and needing 6's to hit. Unless you are another barge. That arm 13 gives them the needed hyrdra protection.
- sweep attacks are good at reliably killing DE vehicles.
- tesla destructor is good at reliably killing DE vehicles.
- this game I had enough DL weapons to clear the necron vehicles. Have been struggling with more venoms.
- everything will get NS's. I believe the internet analysis of this is incorrect (if you can shoot at it, it can shoot at you etc, dark lance range, ML range etc), because its not the unit I am shooting that I am thinking about the range of, its the units I have refused that I want to lock out to help keep the combat where I want it with numerical superiority.
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Post by: Sasori
Monster Rain wrote:junk wrote:I figured that would be the first suggestion.
I've only used imotekh once, and I found him to be a waste of points;
I've ran him a couple of times, for the lulz, and he blew up several tanks in the early game with his Lord of the Storm rule. Or as I like to call them: mind bullets.
I will agree that you should not just throw him into an army though. If you build your list with him in mind, I think he can definitely be worth the points.
100% agree with Monster Rain. Imotekh to me, really favors an army that either has a large assault element that wants to close, as this doesn't diminish our lost shooting capability. His Lightning Strikes can really do a number on a MSU list, but they are not to be relied on.
Cmac, Do you use Nightshields in all of your lists? I only ask this, because I've honestly never seen anyone in my area use them, and if they did so now against a Necron list, it would really seem like tailoring. I'm not saying you are doing that though.
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Post by: cmac
Heh.
Well, when I came back into 5th ed, I started Eldar in Ireland, really enjoyed the mobility of the falcons with the t2 alpha harlie, yriel, eldrad multi charge. Due to the preference for plasma at the time over melta, the falcons where still almost invulnerable.
Then in china I started guard for a different type of army, initially aircav before a move to leaf blower finally power blob. The last one is fun but is cumbersome to setup, play, pack up, paint, assemble etc.
So wanted a new army, de had the speed and the punch. Perfect.
Plan pretty much every time is to work a flank and get percentages in the favour with the mobility. However, to get this to work requires making one of the sides of the opponents force redundant. What I have been finding is that without the night shields more of the stuff I want to deny a shot to can still shoot me. However, it comes with a cost when you factor in 10-11 of them needing it.
Problem is currently my 2 regular opponents in shanghai both play necrons now.. The last 10 games have been against crons... A different opponent would be nice. So maybe there is some tailoring that occurs when you see the additional casualties you take from the refused flank night scythes that can still move 12, drop cryptecs and slay paper planes that didn't need to die with ns on. Currently the de fleet is losing too much turn 2.
Turn 1-2, sweep over hard to one flank near the rear with everything, take long shots if possible. Turn 3 plan the alpha.
My concern is really the 6 gk dreads.
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Post by: Sectiplave
How does everyone feel in regards to the latest round of FAQ's concerning the play style of the Wraith Wing? With the rumours stating wave 2 is not far away I'm really thinking about running a wraith wing at a large tournament in April.
Anrakyr appears to have taken a hit in regards to not being able to use special wargear from vehicles fire points. Shooting from the hull of an open-topped vehicle being a 'fire-point' or not, is the counter argument.
Whip coils and mind-shackle scarabs have been confirmed to work as I have been playing them, so no big change there. However sweep attacks ignoring vehicle cover saves makes it an even more attractive option.
Have these changes got you guys revising your lists?
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Post by: felixcat
Really? You have been playing that GK halberds strike at I3. I think that hurts Wraithwing a lot. Now Anrakyr - I've been playing him with a VoD - so the barge rule doesn't bother me at all. It will still need a further FAQtjhough. Barges are open topped - no fire points. So I'm not sure he cannot use his special power.
I was playing Wraiths but now that VoD/Staff works with deathmarks and I can arrive and veil - well Deathmarks with a phaeron/orb and a Veilteq look pretty decent at the cost.
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Post by: whigwam
Sectiplave wrote:How does everyone feel in regards to the latest round of FAQ's concerning the play style of the Wraith Wing?
Anrakyr will be the only thing I'm changing. What a let down that ruling is. But the bright side: you can get a CCB Overlord with Warscythe/ MSS/Weave and an extra Wraith or Lancetek for the cost of Anrakyr/ CCB. Not a bad swap really, and it suits Wraithwing's style. The only thing I've disliked about Anrakyr is his weakness in assault, so I'm excited to throw a more CC-oriented Overlord into the mix. Not only can he support Wraiths held up against a hardened target, but he can also handle small units like Long Fangs alone.
21610
Post by: Sectiplave
felixcat wrote:Really? You have been playing that GK halberds strike at I3. I think that hurts Wraithwing a lot. Now Anrakyr - I've been playing him with a VoD - so the barge rule doesn't bother me at all. It will still need a further FAQtjhough. Barges are open topped - no fire points. So I'm not sure he cannot use his special power.
Yes I was playing it that it reduced Initiative to 1 and then any wargear was applied afterwards. I had some lengthy debates in regard to playing it this way, but it made sense in the end to run with it this way.
The argument about open topped vehicles is that the shot is not made from the model itself it is made from the hull of the vehicle, this could be interpreted as a "fire-point" but I'm sure this is being better discussed in the You Make Da Call forum sub-section.
I think all that changes for me is that I will probably drop Nemesor and run a generic overlord in CCB, ignoring vehicle smoke and cover saves etc. make sweep attacks just that little bit nastier. Also I think whip coils aren't to be spammed so I'm still running with 3 per squad of 6 as a cap.
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