calypso2ts wrote:My problem with SoB's is the lack of variety in the lists (and my own bias of what they used to 'feel like' playing, they used to feel epic with Faith, now they play very bleh).

The lists though, I will make any SoB list that people would use in a tournament....

Celestine
Jacobus - w/ conclave 6 DCA/3 Crusaders

3x Exorcist
3x Dominion in MM Immolator w/ 2x Melta

Fill in the rest to 'taste' (which means take 2 at most 3 BSS in rhinos and throw some special weapons on them).

The rest of the book has 2 units that are individually good, but are overshadowed in their slot/do not fit with a cohesive vision for the SoB (Rets and Seraphim). Then we get to the purely bad units - Canoness, Command Squad, Priest, Confessors, Repentia, Penitent engines. I would also call the new Celestians bad overall, but they at least bring an Immolator (also kind of bad now) and there are no other viable choices left anyway since we already maxed out HQ/Fast/Heavy...

I probably have not played them enough (6 or 7 times with the new book) to really 'know' the army, but that is more because they are so boring.

(sorry to derail, I was looking at my 3000 points of SoB last night and it made me sad)

jy2 wrote:One of my regular opponents and also partner in this battle report, SabrX, used to play a very competitive Immo-spam Witch Hunter list (though w/3 exorcists) back in the days. He's been somewhat disillusioned with his new battle sisters though after just a couple of games against me and has put them on the shelf for now. Of course my lists are usually pretty competitive as is my play, but those games just showed some of the glaring weaknesses of the new sisters. I agree that there isn't many viable, competitive sisters build, but even their most competitive builds are barely able to keep up with the competitive builds of the newer armies.

I think the fault lies in the "interim" sisters dex. Doesn't seem as if GW has put enough thought and time into its design. While all the other newer armies with their own, actual codices have a slew of competitive and fun builds, I just don't see that with the new Battle Sisters. So unfortunately, Sister players are going to be stuck with the same build if they want to play competitively, and even that really isn't enough to compete with the other newer codices.

pretre wrote:I will agree that the lack of options/viable builds is a problem. My difference in opinion is that I think that sisters are very viable with that build. (Celestine, Uriah Bomb, 3xDom, 3xExo + Whatever)

I actually plan on taking Sisters to 'Ard Boyz this year with just a slight tweak to add a second conclave and Kyrinov instead of Celestine. Should be entertaining.

jy2 wrote:Sure they can win. But if you take their best tournament build against the best of some of the other codices - grey knight Crowe-Purifier Psyfleman-spam, Space Wolf long-fang spam, IG vendetta-melta-vets, Necron MTO wraithwing, BA razor-AV13-spam, even tyranid hive guard-tervigon-spam - they really struggle. The lists I normally use (which includes 4 of the lists above) can handle MSU-mech usually with not much problem, and that includes the Battle Sisters. I'm not saying that my lists can't be beaten by them, but it will be a struggle for them each time.

pretre wrote:I guess we'll see. I will cease my derail.

SabrX wrote:For the record, Sisters of Battle is far from being most competitive 40k armies. It's becomes a game of how many stuff they can kill at close range before they get swept away in assault. Sure they have a couple CC options, but they pale in comparison to other codices CC units. Nevertheless, I wish you luck pretre.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moving this over to stop the OT on jy2's thread.

I think, SabrX, that SoB may not be the most competitive army, but they are able to compete with the most competitive. Let me explain.

Sisters of Battle excel in killing 2+/3+ save bodies now. What are the top lists (with the exception of mech guard)?

As for CC, Sisters have one of the best CC units in the game for sheer killiness: the Uriah Bomb.

7-9 DCA with Rerolls on the Charge, +1 Attack and FNP are an utter beast.

Other fun that makes their day:
- St C is a game changer all by herself. Her ability to disrupt the enemy is awesome.
- Dominions allow you to put solid pressure on your enemy turn 1 or in later turns through outflank. They also allow you cover for your army, regardless of terrain, on first turn.
- Exorcists are a great long range weapon (people disagree with me on this, but...) that puts the fear of god into almost anything subject to instant death or into high toughness, multi-wound models.
- Melta in every slot. Most of it with some way to make it more accurate.
- TL-MM Razorbacks.

I'm not going to argue that we are better/worse than we were before or that we have gained/lost flavor, etc. I am going to say that Sisters can compete pretty well with what is out there.

Thanks for opening this thread, I'll follow this with interest.

It's becomes a game of how many stuff they can kill at close range before they get swept away in assault.

To be fair, I think that's intentional - and I don't even have a problem with that.

The issue I see with the new 'dex, however, is missing options to assist squads that were assaulted, or prevent that from happening. I had a pretty CC-effective Canoness leading the charge with her Celestian Honor Guard, but with the new army list (nerfed stats and removed wargear) I can pretty much forget about her - and the Seraphim, the one other unit that I used to reinforce weak areas during advance, have been nerfed as well.

Maybe I'll just have to get used to Scouting tactics (which I still have little experience with); establishing firepoints from which to cover my Sisters from...

I actually believe pretre when he says that a specific build incorporating Celestine, Kyrinov and/or Jacobus can be competetive if run by skilled players, as they serve to sorta balance the weaknesses I outlined above, but personally I loathe the idea of running special characters (especially ones that aren't even part of "my" Order - if they'd at least had given us Praxedes back!), so I'm stuck between playing SoB exactly like GW wants me to, or running an extremely gimped list, and I don't particularly like either option.

Looking forward for other players' actual game experiences with the good ol' Canoness, though! This is what I'm most interested in atm.

Lynata wrote:The issue I see with the new 'dex, however, is missing options to assist squads that were assaulted, or prevent that from happening. I had a pretty CC-effective Canoness leading the charge with her Celestian Honor Guard, but with the new army list (nerfed stats and removed wargear) I can pretty much forget about her - and the Seraphim, the one other unit that I used to reinforce weak areas during advance, have been nerfed as well.

Your tools for this is a bit different, but Celestine works much like the flying canoness of doom used to. She is a deterrent and can fly in and bail someone out if needed. I've stayed away from Seraphim for a while (since 3.5) so couldn't comment on them. I used them once or twice in 5th and was disappointed (both WH and WD codexes).

Maybe I'll just have to get used to Scouting tactics (which I still have little experience with); establishing firepoints from which to cover my Sisters from...

Scouting is huge.

I actually believe pretre when he says that a specific build incorporating Celestine, Kyrinov and/or Jacobus can be competetive if run by skilled players, as they serve to sorta balance the weaknesses I outlined above, but personally I loathe the idea of running special characters (especially ones that aren't even part of "my" Order - if they'd at least had given us Praxedes back!), so I'm stuck between playing SoB exactly like GW wants me to, or running an extremely gimped list, and I don't particularly like either option.

Uriah and Co do a great job in encouraging folks to stay in their vehicles and away from your gribbly bits. If they charge a sisters squad, you can guarantee that they will be killed to the man in retribution. Celestine is great at swooping in and saving folks as well.

Looking forward for other players' actual game experiences with the good ol' Canoness, though! This is what I'm most interested in atm.

The unit I am most interested in for a Canoness right now is a bare canoness with command squad and 3-4 multimeltas in a rhino or imm. The problem though (and this is a big problem for the 'dex) is that it relies on faith and right now I am not including units that rely on faith in my armies (stopped after the FAQ, previous to the FAQ faith was very reliable).

Just speaking as a dark eldar player, but if I had to take a crack against that list then I would just take multiple ravagers n raiders with disintegrator cannons. Given that you rely on three tanks for your long range firepower if they are knocked out (one weapon destroyed result being all it takes) then a SOB army would probably wilt against a fairly no brainer tactic.

Then again (speaking generically n not about tournaments), some armies are less well equiped to kill meq at shooting. Tau are the most dramatic example, with no CC to beat SOB stuff and VERY expensive antimeq weapons. I swear, my Tau army got tabled by sisters because of this; even though I was markerlighting his units and shooting 30-50 pulse rifle shots at BS5.

But i do think the guy has a point since they can't do close quarters shooting any better than another army. Technically in my Tau game I was massively outgunning him but he was fiendishly lucky with his armour saves. A guard army could probably spam more flamers n meltas. Faith is too rare to be a factor and a few extra bolters vs mech doesn't equate to a decisive advantage. Exorcists are okay I suppose. Death cult assasians are disgusting but you can only take a limited number and are vulnerable to being blown up before getting into combat as a result. IMO.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Just speaking as a dark eldar player, but if I had to take a crack against that list then I would just take multiple ravagers n raiders with disintegrator cannons. Given that you rely on three tanks for your long range firepower if they are knocked out (one weapon destroyed result being all it takes) then a SOB army would probably wilt against a fairly no brainer tactic.

I think that we can tailor lists to deal with any army, but the chances of running into a disintegrator heavy army in any competitive event is VERY low. Also, keep in mind that my long-range firepower is three tanks, but you have 3 TL-MM Razors in your grill turn 1 (at double tap range) and the rest of the army all has anti-tank.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Just speaking as a dark eldar player, but if I had to take a crack against that list then I would just take multiple ravagers n raiders with disintegrator cannons. Given that you rely on three tanks for your long range firepower if they are knocked out (one weapon destroyed result being all it takes) then a SOB army would probably wilt against a fairly no brainer tactic.

I think that we can tailor lists to deal with any army, but the chances of running into a disintegrator heavy army in any competitive event is VERY low. Also, keep in mind that my long-range firepower is three tanks, but you have 3 TL-MM Razors in your grill turn 1 (at double tap range) and the rest of the army all has anti-tank.

Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Yeah, I think that that's the difference. In most of the competitive events I see, you see a lot of mechanized armies so D's do not show up much. Shadowfields are a concern, but again those don't show up in a lot of the competitive DE lists I see (I see a lot more Flickers which concern me when a lot of my guns are only one shot and rely on their strength+ap1 to do the damage, not on volume).

Also, to be fair, we are talking about the competitive aspects of the list, meaning the use of this book/codex at competitive events (i.e. RTTs, GTs, etc).

jy2 wrote:Sure they can win. But if you take their best tournament build against the best of some of the other codices - grey knight Crowe-Purifier Psyfleman-spam, Space Wolf long-fang spam, IG vendetta-melta-vets, Necron MTO wraithwing, BA razor-AV13-spam, even tyranid hive guard-tervigon-spam - they really struggle. The lists I normally use (which includes 4 of the lists above) can handle MSU-mech usually with not much problem, and that includes the Battle Sisters. I'm not saying that my lists can't be beaten by them, but it will be a struggle for them each time.

How would you feel about a challenge. My SoB vs your top tier builds over vassal since we cant meet in person. We will measure out how good they can hold up against a well played tough GK List or one of your other top builds. We can even right a battle report for it haha.

I know you have mentioned this a few times Pretre, but I do not totally understand how it is that the new SoB can annihilate 2+/3+ save armies.

The only thing I can think of are Meltas and the Uriah Bomb (and Exorcist really is wasted on these targets who usually have cover from it). The Bomb certainly smashes these units, but I would take the old DG flamers anyday to eradicate infantry.

Overall I have found that bolters are just not effective enough against 3+ armies and once you get charged, the unit is dead.

Further, Uriah has no options for an assault vehicles, and needs to be at least in proximity to the front lines to be effective. This means, the unit is likely to lose its ride and it is pretty immobile once that happens. The GK matchup seems especially bad (I know you mentioned you had won many of these)...

Edit: I did face disintigrators once at an 'Ard Boyz tournament, I was really surprised and it was a bummer because I had my Daemons there and no boxes to hide in...

Tomb King wrote:How would you feel about a challenge. My SoB vs your top tier builds over vassal since we cant meet in person. We will measure out how good they can hold up against a well played tough GK List or one of your other top builds. We can even right a battle report for it haha.

Edit: LOL, thought you were talking to me. Go to town, TK! I knew this would come up eventually. I am by no means a top-tier general. I am solidly middle of the pack when it comes to generalship. I will only do my cause harm by playing a game to prove a point. I also am not a fan of Vassal. It takes all the fun out of playing 40k.

calypso2ts wrote:I know you have mentioned this a few times Pretre, but I do not totally understand how it is that the new SoB can annihilate 2+/3+ save armies.

Okay, first off, let me repeat that I am a mediocre general.

Since the book came out, I played a 4-round 1750 tournament where I played:
- GK Termies and Psyflemen list. Tabled him. A great deal of this was tactics on his part. He put his dreads on the table and deepstruck his termies. I think you can see where that was going.
- GK Purifier/Storms/Hybrid list. I destroyed him turns 1-3 (all vehicles gone, hq's nuked, etc) but the game ended on 5 (stupid random game length lol) and I was 2 behind on KP (St C stayed down and a freak rhino accident got me behind). If the game had gone any further, he would have probably been tabled. He ended up winning the tournament. I also made some mistakes in deployment that left me out of place during turns 4-5.
- Played Shooty Tyranids. Won by 2 objectives. Solidly kept him bottled up in his deployment zone and Celestine was a champ.
- Green Tide Orks. Draw. Screwed up on turn 4 and charged a falling back boys squad (under half) with Celestine. They regrouped and killed her, turning a potential turn 4 win into a draw. We go to five and I contest all four objectives with an immo, 2 exos and Celestine (all I had left). Also two key difficult terrain checks (Jacobus' rhino and an exo to tank shock and contest on 4) got blown. Made me add a dozer for Jacobus' rhino.


I'm hoping to hit up a 3 round on 2/11/12, so I'll keep you guys informed. In my other games with the list, I LOVE high armor save armies because everything I have eats them up. (Although most of my other games are just garage games, so it isn't strictly competitive.)

The only thing I can think of are Meltas and the Uriah Bomb (and Exorcist really is wasted on these targets who usually have cover from it). The Bomb certainly smashes these units, but I would take the old DG flamers anyday to eradicate infantry.

Melta in every unit, Exorcists, Uriah Bomb. As long as I remember to stay in my transports, I have always ripped apart 2+/3+.

Overall I have found that bolters are just not effective enough against 3+ armies and once you get charged, the unit is dead.

Completely agree. Bolters are just a tax I take to get the two meltas.

Further, Uriah has no options for an assault vehicles, and needs to be at least in proximity to the front lines to be effective. This means, the unit is likely to lose its ride and it is pretty immobile once that happens. The GK matchup seems especially bad (I know you mentioned you had won many of these)...

Here's the thing. To use jy2's terminology, I play MTO. Turn 1 there are 3 TL-MM Immos at 12" from your lines, blocking LOS to my army. Do you shoot at those? (Meaning Uriah and the Exorcists do their work) Or Uriah? (Behind cover from immos. Meaning that the Immos/Exos get free reign) At the Exos (in cover and meaning Immos/Uriah get forward). Not to mention Celestine is right behind one of those forward vehicles looking at a 1st/2nd turn tie up. That's generally my battle plan.

Also, Uriah is not really a charge unit. He's a counter-charge unit. He keeps people off my gribblies.

Here's my list from that 1750, as well:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen (6 DCA, 2 Crusaders) - Rhino (Searchlight)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, MM
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, MM
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, MM - Rhino (Searchlight)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Bolt Pistol/Combi-Melta - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Bolt Pistol/Combi-Melta - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Chainsword/Combi-Melta - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

And BOY did I miss those BSS rhinos. Ugh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last part of the huge post is my proposed 1850:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen (7 DCA, 2 Crusaders) - Rhino (Dozer)
Celestians (5) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Combi-melta/Bolt Pistol, TL-HF Immo
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multi-melta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

I could, of course, trade the celestians for a sisters squad or something.

I will agree that the lack of options/viable builds is a problem. My difference in opinion is that I think that sisters are very viable with that build. (Celestine, Uriah Bomb, 3xDom, 3xExo + Whatever)

I actually plan on taking Sisters to 'Ard Boyz this year with just a slight tweak to add a second conclave and Kyrinov instead of Celestine. Should be entertaining.

I think this encapsulates the competitiveness of Battle Sisters. Once you take Celestine, the Uriah Bomb, and then max out your HS and FA the army is effectively out of options. Those choices add up to about 1300 pts (1400 if you trade Celestine for Kyrinov and another Conclave). That puts the theoretical maximum of SoB effectiveness at around 1750 pts. Once you break the 2000 pt barrier you're reduced to just adding random crap to fill out the points.

At 1500 - 1750 I'd almost consider the Sisters to be a top-tier army. Above that, it just goes downhill fast. Especially since 2000 and above is where the more conventional armies start to really get good. I can't imagine a Sisters army doing well at 'Ard Boyz. I'd love to be shown otherwise.

The rest of the book has 2 units that are individually good, but are overshadowed in their slot/do not fit with a cohesive vision for the SoB (Rets and Seraphim).

Since I'm the lone voice in the darkness for Retributors, I'll step up and become the lone voice for the Seraphim as well.

I think a single Seraphim unit is very good and is a perfect complement to two Dominion squads in a 1500 or 1750 TAC list. Seras are essentially the shooty version of a counter-charge and they bring a handful of advantages to your army. Their jump packs provide better mobility than a Rhino at the expense of protection. In the shooting phase, a full size Seraphim squad is on par with a full sized Dominion squad (w/ flamers) and they have the added ability of being able to assault afterwards and mop up the enemy.

When you're building against all possible opponents, Seraphim give you a strong anti-horde unit that's also useful against standard armies (marines) as well. Ultimately, I find that to be their biggest advantage. They are to my army what the combi-flamer is to my Battle Sister squads.

Amerikon wrote:I think this encapsulates the competitiveness of Battle Sisters. Once you take Celestine, the Uriah Bomb, and then max out your HS and FA the army is effectively out of options. Those choices add up to about 1300 pts (1400 if you trade Celestine for Kyrinov and another Conclave). That puts the theoretical maximum of SoB effectiveness at around 1750 pts. Once you break the 2000 pt barrier you're reduced to just adding random crap to fill out the points.

Well, you throw in 3-4 BSS squads for objectives and then drop in Celestians for extra TL-MM and double melta action and you aren't too bad.

At 1500 - 1750 I'd almost consider the Sisters to be a top-tier army. Above that, it just goes downhill fast. Especially since 2000 and above is where the more conventional armies start to really get good. I can't imagine a Sisters army doing well at 'Ard Boyz. I'd love to be shown otherwise.

I'll do my best.

I think a single Seraphim unit is very good and is a perfect complement to two Dominion squads in a 1500 or 1750 TAC list. Seras are essentially the shooty version of a counter-charge and they bring a handful of advantages to your army. Their jump packs provide better mobility than a Rhino at the expense of protection. In the shooting phase, a full size Seraphim squad is on par with a full sized Dominion squad (w/ flamers) and they have the added ability of being able to assault afterwards and mop up the enemy.

I won't argue that Seraphim aren't good in the new dex. They are good at shooting. But they suffer in that they are the only de-meched unit in a mech army and just aren't as good as a Dominion squad. The anti-horde idea is a compelling one though.

pretre wrote:they suffer in that they are the only de-meched unit in a mech army

I don't see this as being a big problem. Here are the two ways I use them:
Deep Strike - If they deep strike they're probably coming in on turn 2 or 3 so various elements of your army have already been "de-meched" so it doesn't really matter. I usually use this against armies with a static firebase like IG, long fangs, or Tau broadsides, also in Dawn of War missions.

Counter Strike - I keep them on the board but hold them back. In this case they're either totally hidden or in some cover. Even if they were in the open, no one has long range anti-infantry. In this situation, they're a seriously low priority target to the enemy. How concerned would you be with a jump squad that isn't running towards you? I usually use this against an enemy that has to come towards me. Things like outflanking Genestealers, Blood Angels, or other Deep Strike and CC armies.

pretre wrote:and just aren't as good as a Dominion squad.

It depends on the point level and on what their job is. They can't scout a MM Immo which is a bummer, but they're way better at killing stuff than whatever Dominion squad is in that Immolator. At 2000+, you need all the Dominions you can get, but at 1500 and 1750, the Seras are awesome.

It's all about balance. If you take 3 Dominion squads in Immos and give the Dominions melta, then you're approaching that area of too much melta. If you give your Dominion squads flamers, then you run into a problem of them being ineffective. Five ladies w/ a pair of flamers aren't going to kill much and once they're out of the tank they're gonna die. A full squad of Seras are powerful enough to erase units from the board.

At 1500 and 1750, with 2 Dominions and 3 Exorcists you should have more than enough anti-mech, anti-tank, and anti-elite firepower. The Seras balance the army. At least they do for me. There's more than one way to skin an Ork.

Amerikon wrote:It's all about balance. If you take 3 Dominion squads in Immos and give the Dominions melta, then you're approaching that area of too much melta. If you give your Dominion squads flamers, then you run into a problem of them being ineffective. Five ladies w/ a pair of flamers aren't going to kill much and once they're out of the tank they're gonna die. A full squad of Seras are powerful enough to erase units from the board.

2 Twinlinked flamers after a tankshock are nothing to sneeze at. Also, the job of the Dominions is to die. If they are getting killed than something important isn't. Their job is to scout forward, nuke a tank, flame the insides (if necessary) and then distract the opponent into focusing fire on them after they've already done their job.

That being said, I agree that Seras might have a place... My concern is cost vs reward. Seraphs seem more expensive to be viable than Dominions.

At 1500 and 1750, with 2 Dominions and 3 Exorcists you should have more than enough anti-mech, anti-tank, and anti-elite firepower. The Seras balance the army. At least they do for me. There's more than one way to skin an Ork.

This is the most important part for me. Anti-horde aspect... I am intrigued (since my sisters list is a bit weak to horde). What list do you run?

There are different variations of the "Uriah Bomb". There's the extreme offense version (9 DCA + Uriah) which petre uses, extreme defense version (9 Crusaders + Uriah), and there's hybrid with various ratios of DCA:Crusaders. There's also Arco-flagellants, but they are seldom used because Uriah already grants the squad he is with FNP.

The extreme offense version relies on dishing out damage volume of I6 attacks, killing enemy modes, and reducing return attacks. On the charge, the extreme offense version of the Uriah Bomb should kill 11.16 MEQ without invulnerable. However, there are a couple of flaws with the offense version of Uriah Bomb. If you do the math, 5++ w/ FNP averages out to same as a 3+ save. A T3 units with 3+ to normal non-ignore armor save or non-Str6 shooting/attacks and 5++ to ignore armor saves or Str6.

The extreme defense version trades killing power for durability. Crusaders still have WS4 meaning on average they'll be hitting and will be hit on 4's. Their initiative is less, but they are still equipped with a power weapon and benefit from Jacobus' Banner of Sanctity. With a 3++ and FNP, Crusaders will make 83% saves against non-ignore armor saves or Str6 attacks.

The hybrid version is a ratio of Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins. With wound allocation, power weapon or Str6 attacks that have a higher chance of killing Death Cult Assassins can be allocated to Crusaders. There are various ratios such as 4:5, 5:4, etc. While the Battle Conclave won’t be as durable as all-Crusader or offensive as all-Death Cult Assassins, it’s fairly well rounded for most situations.

There are several weaknesses to all version of the Uriah Bomb. They depend on an AV11 Rhino for mobility. Any list with decent number of shooting could disable their transport, which delays them from reaching units they intend to assault. The battle conclave also lacks frag grenades. This is second most glaring weakness to the Uriah Bomb. Smart players makes use of terrain so that if their infantry gets assaulted, they would at least be able to strike back. Without frag grenades. There's a chance that the Uriah Bomb will take heavy casualties, which reduces their potency in assault. However, lack of frag grenades isn't the number one weakness. The Achilles heel to the Uriah Bomb is lacking squad stubborn or fearless. Uriah is an IC and being and IC, he will eventually have to get base to base with enemy infantry. Once he dies, the entire squad loses stubborn. This means if the Battle Conclave loses combat, there’s a chance they could be killed in sweeping advance or forced to fall back and possibly never regroup.

While the Jacob Bomb is formidable, it’s not a death star. It’s not durable and potent enough to decimate multiple units. Jacob Bomb won’t save the rest of the Sisters army from assault and neither will Saint Celestine. Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

As mentioned in OP’s post, I mentioned earlier that the name of the game is to shoot enemy units and try not to get assaulted. This has been true in the same codex, but the ramifications from not successfully neutralizing enemy units in the shooting phase in the previous codex weren’t as dangerous as they are in the current new codex. A small MEQ squad can still assault full strength Battle Sister squad, win combat, and either wipe out or force the Sisters to regroup. Sure there are faith powers allowing the Battle Sisters to regroup, but the chances of getting it off successfully are low. There are tactics to prevent assaults such as Seraphims, Celestine, or good positioning of the Jacob Bomb (disembark, move, assault from non-moving vehicle), but it’s not completely reliable (reasons stated above) and ineffective against MSU or assault units attacking from multiple flanks. An alternative is the vehicle wall tactic (see my signature Rhino tactic link), but it doesn’t work if the vehicle wall gets destroyed.

Now many might argue why not just shoot the crap out of enemy infantry and prevent assault entirely. It’s not as easy as it looks. In the past, the best tactic is never mono to mono. Never pit one Sister squad against another enemy infantry unit unless statistical average is in overwhelming favor. Always focus-fire multiple squads at single infantry unit until they aren’t a threat. Same rules apply, but fire power and meaning of neutralize has changed. In the new codex, fire power has been altered and is arguably less effective against MEQ than they were before. This is due to all Sister units losing access to Divine Guidance. The meaning of threat has also changed. Before, Sisters needs to kill only enough where they could eventually win in assault. Previous stubborn leadership bubbles allowed Sisters to stall long enough for an assault unit to reach and bail them out. The new meaning of neutralize is close to annihilation, leaving almost no one left standing. A Sister squad can’t afford to be assaulted.

Two problems that prevented the previous Sisters of Battle codex from being considered top tier exist in the current codex. Sisters of Battle lack anti-mech long range shooting. In todays meta-game, volume of anti-mech is popular. Once Sisters loses their mobility, they lose their advantage. Enemy mobile units could take the initiative before foot Sisters can react. They could move + disembark + rapid fire or even assault.

The second problem is Annihilation. Sisters of Battle are most effective played as a mechanized army. Unfortunately, all Sisters transports are AV11. A strong list includes multiple transports, which is problematic in annihilation games. 3 Exorcists isn’t enough against armies that can take more range anti-mech shooting.

Current top competitive armies that popular in the tournament scene includes Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves. IMO Necrons will soon join this list, but it will take time and more tournaments before they can be recognized. Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and Tyranids are also common. A competitive Sisters of Battle army list will struggle and most of the time lose against popular tournament list builds for the reasons I detailed in this post. It all boils down to 3 critical issue that Sisters lack whereas everyone has in some form or another:
-Lack of ATSKNF, stubborn, or fearless in most Sister units.
-Lack of anti-mech long range shooting.
-Annihilation missions.

pretre wrote:What list do you run?

It's probably about as radically different from yours as the new codex allows, which means it's just about the same.
I took this list to a 1500pt tourney last weekend and did pretty well with it. I was 3-2, but my first loss was by just a hair to a guy who was 300 pts over the limit and my second loss was to a guy who literally (and I mean literally) failed 3 armor saves the entire game.

I think the biggest indicator of how well Sisters work at these lower point levels is that my first two wins came against long range shooty armies. I never would've stood a chance against those armies with the old Witch Hunters list. Being able to scout/outflank is an absolute game changer for us. Anyway, here's my army:

Amerikon's Army wrote:
HQ
St. Celestine

TROOPS
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino

FAST
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Seraphim Squad - VSS w/ melta-bombs, 2x hand flamers

HEAVY
Exorcist
Exorcist
Retributor Squad - 4x Heavy Bolters, Simulacrum Imperialis

Notes:
At 1500pts I find the Uriah Bomb to be overkill. Usually if your opponent has a big nasty CC squad, they've compromised their army somewhere else and you can typically shoot them down. My 1750 list would literally be this one + Uriah Bomb.

I like 10 strong Dominions for a few reasons. The first and most obvious would be more weapons. Second, I like to be able to shoot from the Rhino. Third, I like them to have a little staying power once they're de-meched. Fourth, (not a great reason but...) that's just how I've been playing them and I'm used to it. I'm going to try out the Immolator Dominions in my next few games.

This was the first time I went with 3 meltas and a flamer and I was never once sorry that I did. It made the squad more flexible without detracting from it's melta power and it was unexpectedly useful for wound allocation. Poor flamer sister ate a lot of Power Fist attacks last weekend.

Typically I run the Retributors bare-bones, but I had a few extra points from taking the flamers in the Dominion squads so I gave them a Simulacrum. They weren't standouts, but they did pretty well. They tore up a Land Speed squadron and shot down a Storm Raven. I'd probably drop them at higher points levels though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:The extreme offense version relies on dishing out damage volume of I6 attacks, killing enemy modes, and reducing return attacks. On the charge, the extreme offense version of the Uriah Bomb should kill 11.16 MEQ without invulnerable.

Your numbers are a bit off. Uriah gives +1A and re-rolls to hit so on the charge 9 DCAs will make 45 attacks, hitting with 40, which would be 20 wounds on an MEQ squad. That means that if someone is foolish enough to put two squads next to each other you should be able to multi-charge and wipe them out. Don't forget that DCAs are WS5 and S4.

I agree with much of your analysis but I think that the new list provides tools to mitigate some of those weaknesses.
Anti-Mech: The Exorcist makes up for some of the lack of anti-Mech. Scouting Dominions make up for a good amount of it as well. If you can get w/in 12" on turn 1, then long range anti-mech is largely irrelevant. If you go all-in on melta Dominions, you can potentially threaten 9 vehicles on turn one. That's a pretty stout Alpha Strike.

Assault: The Uriah Bomb isn't going to be able to walk across the board like Draigowing or 10 TH/SS Terminators, but it will kill what it hits, and that's its best attribute. I haven't run the numbers, but if you want to compare apples to apples, I'd bet that two conclaves could wipe almost any other 400pt unit in the game. You have to be patient with them and pick your battles. The same is true of Celestine. There's a lot of stuff out there that she just can't kill, so you have to keep her away from units that will tie her down. So while individually, I think Sisters are worse at combat, the army as a whole is better.

Annihilation: Well, we've always sucked at KP, so I don't expect that to change.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the real problem is that after your first 1300 or 1400 pts you've basically run out of effective units. Throwing in a couple of troop squads and you've got the most kill efficient army at around 1750. Keep going higher than that and the army just gets worse and worse. So if you play all your games at 2000 or 2500pts, then you'll think that the Sisters are largely ineffective. If you play at 1500 or 1750, you'll think they're great. This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the top-tier armies really get good at 2000 and higher.

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:What list do you run?

It's probably about as radically different from yours as the new codex allows, which means it's just about the same.
I took this list to a 1500pt tourney last weekend and did pretty well with it. I was 3-2, but my first loss was by just a hair to a guy who was 300 pts over the limit and my second loss was to a guy who literally (and I mean literally) failed 3 armor saves the entire game.

I think the biggest indicator of how well Sisters work at these lower point levels is that my first two wins came against long range shooty armies. I never would've stood a chance against those armies with the old Witch Hunters list. Being able to scout/outflank is an absolute game changer for us. Anyway, here's my army:

Amerikon's Army wrote:
HQ
St. Celestine

TROOPS
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino
Battle Sister Squad - VSS w/ combi-flamer, melta, multi-melta, Rhino

FAST
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Dominion Squad - VSS w/ combi-plasma, 3x melta, flamer, Rhino
Seraphim Squad - VSS w/ melta-bombs, 2x hand flamers

HEAVY
Exorcist
Exorcist
Retributor Squad - 4x Heavy Bolters, Simulacrum Imperialis

Notes:
At 1500pts I find the Uriah Bomb to be overkill. Usually if your opponent has a big nasty CC squad, they've compromised their army somewhere else and you can typically shoot them down. My 1750 list would literally be this one + Uriah Bomb.

I like 10 strong Dominions for a few reasons. The first and most obvious would be more weapons. Second, I like to be able to shoot from the Rhino. Third, I like them to have a little staying power once they're de-meched. Fourth, (not a great reason but...) that's just how I've been playing them and I'm used to it. I'm going to try out the Immolator Dominions in my next few games.

This was the first time I went with 3 meltas and a flamer and I was never once sorry that I did. It made the squad more flexible without detracting from it's melta power and it was unexpectedly useful for wound allocation. Poor flamer sister ate a lot of Power Fist attacks last weekend.

Typically I run the Retributors bare-bones, but I had a few extra points from taking the flamers in the Dominion squads so I gave them a Simulacrum. They weren't standouts, but they did pretty well. They tore up a Land Speed squadron and shot down a Storm Raven. I'd probably drop them at higher points levels though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:The extreme offense version relies on dishing out damage volume of I6 attacks, killing enemy modes, and reducing return attacks. On the charge, the extreme offense version of the Uriah Bomb should kill 11.16 MEQ without invulnerable.

Your numbers are a bit off. Uriah gives +1A and re-rolls to hit so on the charge 9 DCAs will make 45 attacks, hitting with 40, which would be 20 wounds on an MEQ squad. That means that if someone is foolish enough to put two squads next to each other you should be able to multi-charge and wipe them out. Don't forget that DCAs are WS5 and S4.

I agree with much of your analysis but I think that the new list provides tools to mitigate some of those weaknesses.
Anti-Mech: The Exorcist makes up for some of the lack of anti-Mech. Scouting Dominions make up for a good amount of it as well. If you can get w/in 12" on turn 1, then long range anti-mech is largely irrelevant. If you go all-in on melta Dominions, you can potentially threaten 9 vehicles on turn one. That's a pretty stout Alpha Strike.

Assault: The Uriah Bomb isn't going to be able to walk across the board like Draigowing or 10 TH/SS Terminators, but it will kill what it hits, and that's its best attribute. I haven't run the numbers, but if you want to compare apples to apples, I'd bet that two conclaves could wipe almost any other 400pt unit in the game. You have to be patient with them and pick your battles. The same is true of Celestine. There's a lot of stuff out there that she just can't kill, so you have to keep her away from units that will tie her down. So while individually, I think Sisters are worse at combat, the army as a whole is better.

Annihilation: Well, we've always sucked at KP, so I don't expect that to change.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the real problem is that after your first 1300 or 1400 pts you've basically run out of effective units. Throwing in a couple of troop squads and you've got the most kill efficient army at around 1750. Keep going higher than that and the army just gets worse and worse. So if you play all your games at 2000 or 2500pts, then you'll think that the Sisters are largely ineffective. If you play at 1500 or 1750, you'll think they're great. This is exacerbated by the fact that most of the top-tier armies really get good at 2000 and higher.

Dominions with 4 special weapons???? Its a suicide squad why run them 10 strong?

I noticed that SoB had an inability to deal with long range shooting it was made blatantly clear when 4 gk dreads were shooting me down relentlessly. However, with the proper flanking maneuvers and the good old look over here while I hit you here still wins the day. Pretre you run 6 flamers in your dominions?? Did you not see how effective melta's can be in that squad? I was taking out 1 to 2 kill points everytime I engaged the enemy with that combo. If the MM fails to get the job done then your dominions are stuck there high and dry.


I tell you what pretre. If you take sisters to ard boyz I will do the same. 2500 points just means I can take my repentia ladies

@SabrX: Amerikon covered some of this, but I run 7/2 Uriah Bomb.

On the charge, 35 DCA attacks. 2/3 hit with reroll. 31 hits. Half kill, that's 15.5 dead SM. Not counting crusaders. 5 dead TH/SS Terminators. Uriah has gotten into actual hand to hand maybe twice out of my games. You start him 12 inches back with the squad in front of him when you get out of the transport and the charge and reaction does all the rest. Second and third turns are rare. Most opponents do not get a chance to swing back.

As for cover/grenades, that's what the vehicle is for. Tank shock them out of cover. Works all the time. And I have nuked multiple, multiple squads with the Bomb. Either the rhino gets popped and the opponent drops his whole army into them so they don't get an assault or they make mincemeat of 2 or 3 units. In one GK game, I killed Mordrak and his boys, a BroChamp and a Heavy GK unit. It was disgusting.

Also, the Jacobus bomb is dead cheap. 85+135+35. It will eat deathstars that are twice those points alive.

Both Celestine and Jacobus can't run the army themselves though, that's what the other 1300 points of your army is for. (Keep in mind they are an investment of like 350-400 points)

Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Which can be just as good, especially when she comes back on your turn, can shoot and assault again. It is hard to quantify how awesome she is.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

Don't get out of your vehicle unless forced to. You're stuck on what we lost and not what we have.

I think you are underestimating how the army works. If you get assaulted, you will die. So don't get assaulted. You have units for counter charge that aren't that hard to get into position.

I snipped a bunch here, but you are really stuck on what we lost. I agree, it sucks, but there's a new book and it works. Yeah, we're not stubborn and we die in hand to hand, but we do a lot of other things well still.

edit: I'm trying not to be dismissive of your points. I can't get around the fact that long-range shooting is poor and we aren't stubborn. That's just true. We also are a high KP army. That being said, we have a lot of tools that make us competitive (melta in every slot, scouting razorbacks, choppy as hell HQs, immortal HQs, etc.) and most of those keep people from even looking twice at our troops, allowing us to get the job done.

I'm not the greatest general or the best theory-crafter, but I'll tell you that in my experience and from what I've seen, they just work. We can bemoan what we lost or try to work with what we have. I've been working with what we have and it is good. I do well, I wreck those top tier armies you're talking about. I don't know what else to say.

Heck, take my list, practice with it and run a game with jy2. Or have him run my list and you run something else. Nothing to lose but a game of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tomb King wrote:I noticed that SoB had an inability to deal with long range shooting it was made blatantly clear when 4 gk dreads were shooting me down relentlessly. However, with the proper flanking maneuvers and the good old look over here while I hit you here still wins the day. Pretre you run 6 flamers in your dominions?? Did you not see how effective melta's can be in that squad? I was taking out 1 to 2 kill points everytime I engaged the enemy with that combo. If the MM fails to get the job done then your dominions are stuck there high and dry.

I tell you what pretre. If you take sisters to ard boyz I will do the same. 2500 points just means I can take my repentia ladies

I run 2 flamers and a combi-melta in my doms in a TL-MM immo. Gotta have something to deal with hordes and even against MEQ, TL flamers are nasty.

I'm thinking 2 Conclaves with Kyrinov and Jacobus, 4 BSS, 3 Exos, 3 Doms and some Celestians/Repentia. Should be entertaining, so make it a deal. I might go crazy and keep Celestine, but then I'll run out of FOC. lol

Sisters haven't changed much for me as of the new WD 'dex. I've always played them differently than everyone else. The build that i play looks similar to the ones people are posting, with a few differences. I usually take 2 serephim and 1 dominion squad, and 2 exos 1 ret squad.
the main difference that i've seen is that a lot of sisters players fail to recognize that sisters, functionally, are a kamikaze army. The way to play them competetivelly is to recognize before hand that they are going to die but can do a decent amount of damage before they bite it. The stars of the show for me usually end up being serephim and HB rets. Rets in the current light tank metagame are brutal for their cost. 85 points for 4 rending heavy bolters + the cost of an immy, makes for an extremely versatile, cost effective unit, and the serephim with all those melta pistol shots (or flamers v. horde) do wonders, before getting shredded.

TBH, the big weakness that i've seen in sisters lists is they can give up a lot of kp. The exo is the biggest help with this, being nearly perfect for snagging late game KP.

Tomb King wrote:Dominions with 4 special weapons???? Its a suicide squad why run them 10 strong?

It's a different play style. 5 Dominions + MM Immo is about the same price as 10 in a Rhino so it's pretty much a straight trade. The MM Immo unit is an alpha strike unit. The Rhino unit trades the first turn strike for the ability to lay down more fire (useful against heavier infantry) and extra bodies to weather a turn of shooting.

Five girls are a suicide unit, and if they have twin melta, they can literally do one thing. That is, pop a vehicle. A full size squad can do a lot of things. With the way I have them built out, I can shoot melta out of the hatch to pop vehicles and when the Rhino gets busted or when I need to bring it, I can hop out and destroy just about anything within 12". I've played a lot of games with my full strength Dominions and never once have I thought "Damn, I wish I had fewer of these!".

I think if they hadn't robbed the Immolator of it's fire points then the 5 girl squad would probably be a no brainer.

pretre wrote:@SabrX: Amerikon covered some of this, but I run 7/2 Uriah Bomb.

As for cover/grenades, that's what the vehicle is for. Tank shock them out of cover. Works all the time.

Tank shock won't work all the time. There's still the issue of the Uriah Bomb's transport getting wrecked/immobilized, which hinders them from "bombing" any units. There's also placement of said units in cover. As I stated up top, 5++/FNP averages to a 3+ save. If they get stuck in the open and shot up at, they may take heavy casualties. If they assault through cover, the Uriah Bomb will take casualties.

Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Which can be just as good, especially when she comes back on your turn, can shoot and assault again. It is hard to quantify how awesome she is.

But it doesn't address the issue of preventing other SoB unit from being assaulted once the enemy unit is freed from combat.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

Don't get out of your vehicle unless forced to. You're stuck on what we lost and not what we have.

I think you are underestimating how the army works. If you get assaulted, you will die. So don't get assaulted. You have units for counter charge that aren't that hard to get into position.

In a mech vs mech battle against a list with superior fire power, mech Sisters don't dictate the battle or choose not to be assaulted. It's difficult to recover after losing majority of transports.

@pretre:

My main argument from jy2's battle report is that Sisters of Battle is not strong enough to beat strong tournament lists. This includes Crowe-Purifer GK, Razor-spam BA and SW, Missile Spam Bjorn Wolves, DE Venom Spam, Leafblower IG, and Wraith-wing Necrons. They may have a chance against Draigo-wing, but that depends whether the opponent is smart enough to prioritize the Uriah Bomb over everything else.

I already have an ideal list, which isn't really different from everyone else. 3 Exorcists, 3 min-Dominion squads inside Rhinos with Meltaguns, Jacob and 5:4 Death Cults to Crusaders inside a Rhinos, and the rest spent in mechanized Battle Sisters. I've also tested my list against jy2's Crowe Purfiers and Necrons. Both times jy2 won in a land slide. I played against Reecius' infamous Bjorn missile spam mech-Wolves using the old Witch Hunter codex. After suffering a huge defeat, I'm certain the new Sisters of Battle won't survive a gunline of that magnitude.

Feel free to post any battle reports of victories over any lists you consider are of the top tournament lists. I'm interested in reading your results.

SabrX wrote:

pretre wrote:@SabrX: Amerikon covered some of this, but I run 7/2 Uriah Bomb.

As for cover/grenades, that's what the vehicle is for. Tank shock them out of cover. Works all the time.

Tank shock won't work all the time. There's still the issue of the Uriah Bomb's transport getting wrecked/immobilized, which hinders them from "bombing" any units. There's also placement of said units in cover. As I stated up top, 5++/FNP averages to a 3+ save. If they get stuck in the open and shot up at, they may take heavy casualties. If they assault through cover, the Uriah Bomb will take casualties.

Despite having 2+ save and multiple wounds, Saint Celestine can still fail her 4++ save and get insta-gib. She can still come back, but that doesn’t lock enemy units in assault.

Which can be just as good, especially when she comes back on your turn, can shoot and assault again. It is hard to quantify how awesome she is.

But it doesn't address the issue of preventing other SoB unit from being assaulted once the enemy unit is freed from combat.

Sisters of Battle number one weakness is assault. This wasn’t a problem in previous 3rd ed codex where a Canoness or Veteran Sister Superior could purchase Book of St. Lucius and grant 12” stubborn bubble to all friendly units. Now, a Sister squad without stubborn IC can lose combat and potentially wiped out in sweeping advance. It’s ironic that their strength lies in close range shooting. To be effective, they put themselves at risk of getting assaulted.

Don't get out of your vehicle unless forced to. You're stuck on what we lost and not what we have.

I think you are underestimating how the army works. If you get assaulted, you will die. So don't get assaulted. You have units for counter charge that aren't that hard to get into position.

In a mech vs mech battle against a list with superior fire power, mech Sisters don't dictate the battle or choose not to be assaulted. It's difficult to recover after losing majority of transports.

@pretre:

My main argument from jy2's battle report is that Sisters of Battle is not strong enough to beat strong tournament lists. This includes Crowe-Purifer GK, Razor-spam BA and SW, Missile Spam Bjorn Wolves, DE Venom Spam, Leafblower IG, and Wraith-wing Necrons. They may have a chance against Draigo-wing, but that depends whether the opponent is smart enough to prioritize the Uriah Bomb over everything else.

I already have an ideal list, which isn't really different from everyone else. 3 Exorcists, 3 min-Dominion squads inside Rhinos with Meltaguns, Jacob and 5:4 Death Cults to Crusaders inside a Rhinos, and the rest spent in mechanized Battle Sisters. I've also tested my list against jy2's Crowe Purfiers and Necrons. Both times jy2 won in a land slide. I played against Reecius' infamous Bjorn missile spam mech-Wolves using the old Witch Hunter codex. After suffering a huge defeat, I'm certain the new Sisters of Battle won't survive a gunline of that magnitude.

Feel free to post any battle reports of victories over any lists you consider are of the top tournament lists. I'm interested in reading your results.

I just posted a tournament report where I took down dual lash csm & 4 dread GK's with my SoB and my army had room for improvement on the competitive side. The army can compete with the top armies its just the room for error is much smaller. I will extend you the same offer I did jy2, a game on vassal you pick ur army and build ur list and I will knock it down a majority of the time with the sisters. Not saying im unbeatable by any means but the army will at the very least give ur list a run for its money.

So far after playing SOB with the new dex, Kyrinov is the real star. I'm running 2 conclaves and it's the fearless bubble that is making sob all but unbeatable in H2H.

Most combats are my sisters squads taking the charge from the enemy and taking losses. Sister squads do not get wiped out on the charge (loving the 6++) and WITH FEARLESS survive till my turn. Now you have to think about positioning and set it up, but it is really not that hard to hide a DCA rhino behind a SoB rhino. In your turn you hit them with the dca trailing Kyrinov. You don't need grenades if the enemy is in combat already.

Last week I had 2 battle squads of 10 get charged by a 5 man incubi squad with archon and a 10 man wyche unit. My units were fearless and took losses but both units held due to fearless. Kyrinov was close and in my turn the dca/crusader squad assualted the wyches and incubi. I left kyrinov in the rhino. I won combat but he held. I broke him in his turn (he had just his archon and 1 incubi left) and let him run off the board. I had 1 crusader and 5 dca left. Kyrinov was untouched. My sisters took a beating but lasted till the 3 round of combat.

This is happening in every game i play. Only army in H2H I fear is GK DCA spam. Grenades for the win.

FYI i'm currently stripping and repainting my SoB for the summer tournaments. The Bugeater GT in Omaha will be the first one they get played at. I'm liking the current dex and hope they add units but keep the current feel of this one.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:So far after playing SOB with the new dex, Kyrinov is the real star. I'm running 2 conclaves and it's the fearless bubble that is making sob all but unbeatable in H2H.

Most combats are my sisters squads taking the charge from the enemy and taking losses. Sister squads do not get wiped out on the charge (loving the 6++) and WITH FEARLESS survive till my turn. Now you have to think about positioning and set it up, but it is really not that hard to hide a DCA rhino behind a SoB rhino. In your turn you hit them with the dca trailing Kyrinov. You don't need grenades if the enemy is in combat already.

Last week I had 2 battle squads of 10 get charged by a 5 man incubi squad with archon and a 10 man wyche unit. My units were fearless and took losses but both units held due to fearless. Kyrinov was close and in my turn the dca/crusader squad assualted the wyches and incubi. I left kyrinov in the rhino. I won combat but he held. I broke him in his turn (he had just his archon and 1 incubi left) and let him run off the board. I had 1 crusader and 5 dca left. Kyrinov was untouched. My sisters took a beating but lasted till the 3 round of combat.

This is happening in every game i play. Only army in H2H I fear is GK DCA spam. Grenades for the win.

FYI i'm currently stripping and repainting my SoB for the summer tournaments. The Bugeater GT in Omaha will be the first one they get played at. I'm liking the current dex and hope they add units but keep the current feel of this one.

So your running two conclaves does that include uriah and kyrinov or just kyrinov and a regular confessor hq? Also how do you handle kill points my 2k list has 21?

@Tomb King:

Read your battle report. Congrats placing second and potentially 1st if you remembered tertiary in the last game.

However, I wouldn't consider second and third list you played to be competitive. Havocs are seldom seen and are extremely expensive. The GK list was more of a Coteaz henchman list than Psycannon + Psyrifle dread spam list that I'm used to seeing. The first list was borderline competitive. If your opponent dropped the Vindicator, Bezerkers, and added more Oblits and small mechanized Plague Marines with Meltaguns, then it definitely would be one of the traditional competitive builds (perhaps tier 2).

Nevertheless, well done.

As of now, I'm on hiatus, focusing on my studies. Perhaps when Spring break rolls by and jy2 is free, I could play more test games with my Sisters of Battle. I may even re-install old V files and take your offer in a 1v1 showdown.

@Inquisitor_Dunn:

I'm glad someone else other than me has tried using kyrinov. The fearless 12" bubble (6" radius) fixes a lot of Sisters of Battle underlying weakness in assault. Two Battle Conclaves is an interesting idea. I'll have to try it some day.

Yeah, I'm really curious about the dual conclaves. Kyrinov in a vehicle leaves a really big bubble of protection.

I was actually planning on taking Kyrinov and a priest for a 9 man DCA (5)/Crusader (4) squad. That way I don't need to sacrifice Kyrinov's utility if I need to use the Battle Conclave.

@SabrX: It is sad because I don't know that I will ever play against the type of list you are talking about or the caliber of player. My family life keeps me from GTs for the most part, so I only do local RTT.

Also, if you're going to go Rhinos for your Doms, go full squad size. Otherwise it is generally better to take TL-MM immos.

If I remember correctly, and this is meant in the best way possible, in the game that was posted against jy2, you made some reaaaally big mistakes that cost you the game. I think that was the deathray game where you lined your vehicles up for him. It also seemed to me like you were trying to play the old codex, which you can't do anymore.

The new book requires new thinking to work. You can't play it like C:WH.

While I agree there are some interesting new tools/units for a SoB army, their real weakness imo is in that troops slot.

At 1850 points and 2 troop units, I would neutralize those scouted immolators (to get a can't shoot effect or better on it with a Krak Missile you need 1.5 hits which takes 2.25 shots). Once they can't shoot, the flamers can be ignore for the short term. Then it is just a matter of breaking open other Rhinos (the key to beating SoB has always been to completely ignore the Exorcists).

I think a real issue for the Immos is they can only move 6" and shoot, which also makes assault a viable mechanism to break them apart, especially if you charge them with the intent of glancing them to death.

SabrX did play the new SoB like the old ones in that game against Necrons and it made the result worse than it could have been.

That said, I do not disagree with most of his points. Comparing to the old codex emphasizes how the SoB weaknesses are worse now than they previously were. The real question is what did they gain in power to make up for it? Scouting Doms and an Assault unit, the issue being the role of that Assault unit was pretty well filled before if you took a Canoness with Celestian Retinue (or even a Jump Pack Canoness) so that really leaves just the scouting.

I took the old SoB book to a GT 2 years ago, I went 5-1 (I lost to BoLS Darkwynn in round one...it was brutal...). I really don't think I could replicate that with the new book, again the reason being the troop choices. I took 4 BSS to that tournament for troops @1850, 2 troop units at that level are not enough, but BSS are just so bad now...

calypso2ts wrote:While I agree there are some interesting new tools/units for a SoB army, their real weakness imo is in that troops slot.

No disagreement.

At 1850 points and 2 troop units, I would neutralize those scouted immolators (to get a can't shoot effect or better on it with a Krak Missile you need 1.5 hits which takes 2.25 shots). Once they can't shoot, the flamers can be ignore for the short term. Then it is just a matter of breaking open other Rhinos (the key to beating SoB has always been to completely ignore the Exorcists).

Smoked, remember. I completely disagree with ignoring Exorcists. If my exorcists are alive at the end of the game, my opponent has lost.

I think a real issue for the Immos is they can only move 6" and shoot, which also makes assault a viable mechanism to break them apart, especially if you charge them with the intent of glancing them to death.

True, but also keep in mind that shaken turns into a 12" move, etc. I might sac a shot from the immo to get a shot from the Doms closer in, etc.

That said, I do not disagree with most of his points. Comparing to the old codex emphasizes how the SoB weaknesses are worse now than they previously were. The real question is what did they gain in power to make up for it? Scouting Doms and an Assault unit, the issue being the role of that Assault unit was pretty well filled before if you took a Canoness with Celestian Retinue (or even a Jump Pack Canoness) so that really leaves just the scouting.

I completely disagree with this point. A flying canoness or canoness with CR were an attrition unit, not a killy unit. Celestine matches the Flying Canoness roll as an attrition unit, but the Uriah Bomb is something we have not had since redemptionists (a super killy unit that eats things it is thrown at).

I took the old SoB book to a GT 2 years ago, I went 5-1 (I lost to BoLS Darkwynn in round one...it was brutal...). I really don't think I could replicate that with the new book, again the reason being the troop choices. I took 4 BSS to that tournament for troops @1850, 2 troop units at that level are not enough, but BSS are just so bad now...

I think the difference with SoB is that 2-3 Troops at 1750-1850 works because people are dumb to shoot at your troops. If they are shooting at your troops, you either are already tabled or they are going to lose. Basically, the troops are the least important part of your list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you are stuck on the two troops at 1850, swap out the Celestians for a third troop. It is an easy swap that gives roughly the same utility. I'm thinking of doing it myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: 1850, you can run this which is stronger in troops and holding points. Celestians are just filler basically anyways.

Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen (7 DCA, 2 Crusaders)- Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
1845


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@calypso2ts: thinking about it this morning, I'm thinking I will go with the 3 BS version. I don't know what I was thinking with just 2 troops at 1850. Thanks!

One thing they could of done is perhaps make a few of the HQ's especially the the named one's toughness 4. For example: It doesnt make sense the vindicare assassins are tougher then a living saint or that a regular battle sister can endure as much pain as Uriah or Celestine. This would help significantly lower all the instant death the armies hq choices take.

"Especially"? Isn't the Canoness useless enough yet?

(considering she actually used to be T4 in the earliest days ...)

It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

Lynata wrote:"Especially"? Isn't the Canoness useless enough yet?

(considering she actually used to be T4 in the earliest days ...)

It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

If I didn't know better, I'd say someone actually doesn't like our nuns very much. Though in the early days all Sisters were T 4 even the battle sisters squads.

Lynata wrote:It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

It's about 50/50. Exorcists, Dominions and TL-MM Immolators are all high on the list still and part of the Order, while Celestine (who I argue is part of the order) and the Battle Conclave/Confessor are not.

pretre wrote:Also, if you're going to go Rhinos for your Doms, go full squad size. Otherwise it is generally better to take TL-MM immos.

I'm not fully set on TL-MM Immolators w/ Dominion flamers and combi-melta yet. There's still a high chance the Immolator will get shaken or worst. It's a lot of points and if it can't shoot, the fall back plan is to move the Immolator 12", pivot, disembark, 2" , and fire the Dominion combi-melta. Dominions equipped with flamers riding in vehicle that normally moves combat speed isn't effective. Dominions with 2 Meltaguns in Rhinos is much cheaper and arguably more effective as tank hunters when you consider their scout move. That and the a Rhino moving cruising speed, pivot, disembarking infantry 2", and firing 2 Meltaguns has a longer range than a scoot and shoot TL-MM Immolator. Plus there's also the option of moving combat speed and shooting 2 Meltaguns through Rhino fire points. Immolator has no fire points.

@Inquisitor_Dunn:

Here's a rough draft list I posted in the armylist section using your Double Conclaves idea:

I used pretre's Crusader-DCA ratio, but I'm not sure what's the best Battle Conclave setup for the squad riding with Kyrinov.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/427402.page

edit: ":" + "D" mistaken as Orkmoticons. Changes to Crusader-DCA

I think the dominion thing is a matter of taste, but I'd love to hear how it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That list looks nasty, btw. I'll post over there.

Ok, since there are already a lot of SoB experts here, I will talk about them from an opponent's perspective.

Basically, my TAC lists, with the exception of my necrons, tend to be shooty lists with counter-assault elements and/or tarpit elements. In the case of my grey knights, my purifiers are also above-average assault units. In the case of my nids, I have my tyrants and/or Swarmlord + genestealers as counter-assault units. And my space wolves uses wolf guards, grey hunters and rune priests for assault and dreads for counter-assault.

The biggest weakness of the SoB's IMO is that I know how they play and can plan my strategy accordingly. With only 3 exorcists (which BTW, I always ignore initially), the rest of the army relies on a rhino rush to get them into mid-field for some mid-range shooting. Then they have to rely on focus-fire or their infamous Uriah-bomb to wipe out units. My armies can and will out-shoot them from range, whether it be psyfleman dreads + purifier psycannons, space wolf missile launchers or hive guard + devourer shooting. I take out their mobility (transports) and now it has all of a sudden become very dangerous and risky for them to advance on foot. I neuter Uriah's ride so that his mini-star now has to weather my shooting on foot, and when they get close enough, I let them play with my dread. In the game against my necrons, basically wraiths are their worst nightmare as they ignore FNP, don't care about power weapons and for the most part attack 1st due to whip coils.

Once I take out his mobility, it then becomes much easier for me to dictate where and when the battles will happen. Now this doesn't necessarily mean that I will always assault, but it usually ends up that way because that is probably the most efficient way to kill them. I try to tarpit the more killy units like the DCA squad so I don't have to risk my troops, but that is not always necessary if I can whittle them down to small units with my shooting. St. Celestine is a little harder to pin down due to her mobility, but I'm not really all that concerned about her assault because I'm willing to sacrifice my units if necessary. My counter-attack is usually enough to deal with her (it has so far in my games against her).

Of course in general, these strategies applies to all my opponents and not just the Sisters of Battle. It's just with the SoB's, I know exactly what to expect and how to deal with it. In a tournament environment against a good general, this is what the new SoB's have to overcome, not just a nasty list, but the cunning of the general behind it.


BTW, here are some of my epic battles against SabrX's SoB's, both old and new (from most recent to oldest):


2K MTO necrons vs New Battle Sisters - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419123.page

2.5K Ard Boyz Practice - Crowe-Purifiers vs New Battle Sisters (it's the 2nd batrep on that page) - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/394774.page

2K Early Grey Knights vs Old Battle Sisters Immo-spam (my very 1st battle with the new grey knights, excuse the proxies) - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354103.page

2K Shooty Tyranids vs Old Battle Sisters Immo-spam - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/335528.page

jy2 wrote:With only 3 exorcists (which BTW, I always ignore initially), the rest of the army relies on a rhino rush to get them into mid-field for some mid-range shooting. Then they have to rely on focus-fire or their infamous Uriah-bomb to wipe out units.

This is mostly true, but getting scout/outflank for our best anti-tank unit is able to help with the classic Sisters dilemma of getting across the board against a shooty enemy. If you can get first turn and scout with MM Immolators, you can potentially threaten 9 vehicles on the top of turn 1 (3 Exorcists, 3 MM Immos, 3 melta Dominions).

In my experience, the most dangerous armies are the ones that can just sit back and shoot you to pieces. So, being able to threaten/neutralize the enemy's long range fire is probably the biggest advantage the new list has on the old. And once you take out the long-range stuff, you force the enemy to get closer to you. Since Sisters want to be close to the enemy, if you can force them to close the distance themselves, it's almost like they're fighting the battle for you.

I'll admit though, I have no good answer to spammed Wraiths. I think that even if I was able to commit my entire army against them, they'd probably still not all die.

Competent generals normally know how to deploy against scouting units and that is to either use a sacrificial "push-back" unit to absorb the alpha-strike, to try to use cover where possible or to just "take it". If they've build enough redundancy in their list, they should survive. Outflanking is even easier to deal with.

@Amerikon:

BTW, I think I've played against your Sisters (the old codex) before. That time, I used my scary tyranids but I think it came out a draw because they were too slow to make it to your C&C objective (or something like that).

jy2 wrote:@Amerikon:
BTW, I think I've played against your Sisters (the old codex) before. That time, I used my scary tyranids but I think it came out a draw because they were too slow to make it to your C&C objective (or something like that).

It's possible. I don't know who you are in real life, but I've noticed in some of your battle reports that you're playing at Game Kastle which is pretty much the only place I play.

If you did play against my old Sisters, you probably won. I went through a year long phase where I refused to take Heavy Support choices. Needless to say, I didn't win too often.

If you're interested, we could get together at some point and do a battle report. I have yet to play against GK or Necrons with the new Sisters so that would be interesting. I'd also like to do a test of competitive Sisters at 1500 vs 2000 points, since I'm of the opinion that once you get past 1750 the Sisters start to lose their mojo.

Sure, no prob. I won't be there this week but I should be there next Thurs. I'll give you a taste of my 1500 Crowe-Purifiers if you're there (even though I've never really played them at that points level).

BTW, I was at the Storm the Kastle tournament as an observer. Couldn't attend due to work, though I did play 1 game on Day 2 as the ringer - the Draigowing player vs Italiaplaya's Fatecrushers daemons.

Its nice to see the sisters perform. I am one for the true value of the sisters when played well. Its nice to see this thread up and about.

Lynata wrote:"Especially"? Isn't the Canoness useless enough yet?

(considering she actually used to be T4 in the earliest days ...)

It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

Aye, I noticed that too... (pssst Canoness was T5 in 2nd Ed)... sigh....

Sorry folks, I was going to ask something too, but this isn't the place for it - wouldn't fit the tone. Carry on....

tsz52 wrote:Aye, I noticed that too... (pssst Canoness was T5 in 2nd Ed)... sigh....

2nd edition had inflated stats for most heroes. Things were crazy.

pretre wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Aye, I noticed that too... (pssst Canoness was T5 in 2nd Ed)... sigh....

2nd edition had inflated stats for most heroes. Things were crazy.

Aye but it was still only T+1 over the other Sisters, so not too crazy or outlandish in terms of the 40k overall norm (as was, not just in 2nd Ed).

But yeah, it was just an agreement and FYI for Lynata - I'm deliberately avoiding this subject otherwise [I don't want to wee on you fine folks' chips].

pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm really curious about the dual conclaves. Kyrinov in a vehicle leaves a really big bubble of protection.

I was actually planning on taking Kyrinov and a priest for a 9 man DCA (5)/Crusader (4) squad. That way I don't need to sacrifice Kyrinov's utility if I need to use the Battle Conclave.

@SabrX: It is sad because I don't know that I will ever play against the type of list you are talking about or the caliber of player. My family life keeps me from GTs for the most part, so I only do local RTT.

Also, if you're going to go Rhinos for your Doms, go full squad size. Otherwise it is generally better to take TL-MM immos.

If I remember correctly, and this is meant in the best way possible, in the game that was posted against jy2, you made some reaaaally big mistakes that cost you the game. I think that was the deathray game where you lined your vehicles up for him. It also seemed to me like you were trying to play the old codex, which you can't do anymore.

The new book requires new thinking to work. You can't play it like C:WH.

I have been running both Jacobus and Kyrinvo and 2x the conclaves. I like it so much but hate sticking Kyrinov's neck out, that I'm thinking of adding a priest with power weapon or eviserator to run in his place in the conclave. The evisorator is more for dreadnoughts maybe. I'm testing it out soon. List has been 1850 for the Bugeater GT.

You don't have to disembark Kyrinov. You can just leave him in the Rhino and have his 6" fearless aura wrap around the vehicle's hull. He's more of a liability in assault.

SabrX wrote:You don't have to disembark Kyrinov. You can just leave him in the Rhino and have his 6" fearless aura wrap around the vehicle's hull. He's more of a liability in assault.

Exactly this. at 2k/2500, I would think about going to 8 for his conclave and taking a priest just because of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've also been contemplating running Kyrinov with Rets to make the Rets an unbreakable backfield threat and save on Simulacrum. Have to buy a priest then though.

pretre wrote:

SabrX wrote:You don't have to disembark Kyrinov. You can just leave him in the Rhino and have his 6" fearless aura wrap around the vehicle's hull. He's more of a liability in assault.

Exactly this. at 2k/2500, I would think about going to 8 for his conclave and taking a priest just because of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've also been contemplating running Kyrinov with Rets to make the Rets an unbreakable backfield threat and save on Simulacrum. Have to buy a priest then though.

Didnt you have a priest already what happened to the one you had already . I posted the whole emergency disembark thing in you make the call thread as the unit is never actually pinned just cant do (anything)<< the key word being discussed.

I have plenty of priests, but don't have any in my lists yet. At 2k+ or so, I'm thinking about it.

Also can't hurt to have a priest with the Repentia.

I have to be honest, I never considered a priest at all for a SoB army - I think they are completely non-competitive. Correct me if I am wrong but with an Eviscerator they are a one wound 70 point model with a 4++ save?

I had considered Kyrinov as an anchor for the army as well. For SoB I actually think Fearless is a good thing, not bad at all since it stops you from being swept and taking 3+ saves on those wounds is not necessarily a bad thing.

@ Pretre I am glad I could help, 2 troops is just so dicey overall to run and it is incredibly easy to lose one of them and be in a tough position.

Where play I tend to see a lot of Missiles and not too many Lascannons. With a 5+ to glance AV 13, I would never ever shoot my Exorcist at a Vindicator/Predator in the same way my opponents never shoot my Exorcist. It is too tough unless you have side armor (and with cover) to bother with until someone gets into Melta range.

When I have lost with SoB it is when I have been dismounted early in the game and then I lose the initiative to my opponent who can dictate the terms of the engagement. I also always blew away my opponents Rhinos first with Exorcists, unless there is a low armor high value target like a Typhoon speeder. Once they are on foot you can pick away at them turn by turn and being in a vehicle gets you that extra 2.5" assault move as well from disembarking!

Edit: All this talk has inspired me to bring out the SoB again against my buddys Necrons, we will see what happens.

calypso2ts wrote:I have to be honest, I never considered a priest at all for a SoB army - I think they are completely non-competitive. Correct me if I am wrong but with an Eviscerator they are a one wound 70 point model with a 4++ save?

I had considered Kyrinov as an anchor for the army as well. For SoB I actually think Fearless is a good thing, not bad at all since it stops you from being swept and taking 3+ saves on those wounds is not necessarily a bad thing.

@ Pretre I am glad I could help, 2 troops is just so dicey overall to run and it is incredibly easy to lose one of them and be in a tough position.

Where play I tend to see a lot of Missiles and not too many Lascannons. With a 5+ to glance AV 13, I would never ever shoot my Exorcist at a Vindicator/Predator in the same way my opponents never shoot my Exorcist. It is too tough unless you have side armor (and with cover) to bother with until someone gets into Melta range.

When I have lost with SoB it is when I have been dismounted early in the game and then I lose the initiative to my opponent who can dictate the terms of the engagement. I also always blew away my opponents Rhinos first with Exorcists, unless there is a low armor high value target like a Typhoon speeder. Once they are on foot you can pick away at them turn by turn and being in a vehicle gets you that extra 2.5" assault move as well from disembarking!

Edit: All this talk has inspired me to bring out the SoB again against my buddys Necrons, we will see what happens.

The rise of the sisters. Pretre we might have started a movement. Maybe this is the answer to the grey knights. haha

calypso2ts wrote:I have to be honest, I never considered a priest at all for a SoB army - I think they are completely non-competitive. Correct me if I am wrong but with an Eviscerator they are a one wound 70 point model with a 4++ save?

Correct. You can field them as a straight 45 or 55 with combi-melta though. There's a reason I haven't run them too often.

Where play I tend to see a lot of Missiles and not too many Lascannons. With a 5+ to glance AV 13, I would never ever shoot my Exorcist at a Vindicator/Predator in the same way my opponents never shoot my Exorcist. It is too tough unless you have side armor (and with cover) to bother with until someone gets into Melta range.

Remember that exorcists are very good at getting side shots since they can always move and get full fire.

When I have lost with SoB it is when I have been dismounted early in the game and then I lose the initiative to my opponent who can dictate the terms of the engagement.

He who bails fails. The great thing about my list is that you can use the melta to pop the rhinos and save the exorcists for last.

Edit: All this talk has inspired me to bring out the SoB again against my buddys Necrons, we will see what happens.

Yay! Keep at it. It'll take some work to get used to the new book and the way things work nowadays. Let us know what happens and what you learn from it.

Will do, the game will probably be on Tuesday, he only has about 1k points so far and is new but that evens us up for my lack of experience with the new SoB.

To clarify dismounted, I meant forcibly dismounted by 15 Long Fangs or the equivalent tomfoolery.

@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

jy2 wrote:@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

They already reroll to hiton the charge with Uriah why would you need the priest? I guess an eviscerator would be nice for dreadnoughts

The priest is usually only good bare on repentia or with an eviscerator on something like celestians.

Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

They already reroll to hiton the charge with Uriah why would you need the priest? I guess an eviscerator would be nice for dreadnoughts

There isn't much in a battle conclave that can harm an AV12 walker. There's a good chance the Dreadnought will strike the priest down before the priest can attack.

In any case, it's never a good idea for a Battle Conclave to get stuck in combat against walkers.

SabrX wrote:There isn't much in a battle conclave that can harm an AV12 walker. There's a good chance the Dreadnought will strike the priest down before the priest can attack.

In any case, it's never a good idea for a Battle Conclave to get stuck in combat against walkers.

I'm going to second that. DO NOT GET YOUR CONCLAVE STUCK IN H2H WITH A WALKER. lol

Jacobus has a krak grenade, I guess.

Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

They already reroll to hiton the charge with Uriah why would you need the priest? I guess an eviscerator would be nice for dreadnoughts

This was in reference to petre+SabrX's dual-conclave list, one with Jacobus and the other with Kyrinov. Petre was talking about leaving Kyrinov in the rhino and getting a priest for that unit as well.

pretre wrote:

SabrX wrote:There isn't much in a battle conclave that can harm an AV12 walker. There's a good chance the Dreadnought will strike the priest down before the priest can attack.

In any case, it's never a good idea for a Battle Conclave to get stuck in combat against walkers.

I'm going to second that. DO NOT GET YOUR CONCLAVE STUCK IN H2H WITH A WALKER. lol

Jacobus has a krak grenade, I guess.

The problem with that is sometimes, it's hard to avoid, especially if you're playing against kan wall orks, war-walker eldar, Crowe-purifier-psyfleman GK or other MEQ armies using dreads as counter-assault. Those dreads usually have the capability to survive exorcist fire and even close-range meltaguns. In order for the conclave to kill the enemy, they're going to have to get dangerously close to those dreads in many cases.

This is where my 145 point Jump pack Canoness with a 2++, Inferno Pistol, Eviscerator and immune to the first ID used to come in...

at 1850, i've had alot of success with this list:

Uriah +8 DC, +1 Crusader + rhino, EA, dozers
St Celestine

3 battle sister squads with 2 meltas and combi flamer, rhino with dozers,

2 Dominion squads in TL MM immolators (dozers), 2 meltas in the squad and a combi melta

1 Dominion squad of 5 with 2 melta guns (outflank)

3 exorcists

It hasn't lost yet.... 3-0-1

the list suffers in objective missions... 3 troop choices is tough! and KPs isn't easy either... but thats why i like it. Its a challenging codex to play that... if you play well, it will do well. I've found it to be very balanced... while I'd LIKE stubborn again... Its not needed.

The tricks are in how you use the Living St... I've found jumping her around and joining /leaving different units depending on how you want to do dmg to the opponent, she becomes VERY potent.

frgsinwntr wrote:at 1850, i've had alot of success with this list:

Uriah +8 DC, +1 Crusader + rhino, EA, dozers
St Celestine

3 battle sister squads with 2 meltas and combi flamer, rhino with dozers,

2 Dominion squads in TL MM immolators (dozers), 2 meltas in the squad and a combi melta

1 Dominion squad of 5 with 2 melta guns (outflank)

3 exorcists

It hasn't lost yet.... 3-0-1

the list suffers in objective missions... 3 troop choices is tough! and KPs isn't easy either... but thats why i like it. Its a challenging codex to play that... if you play well, it will do well. I've found it to be very balanced... while I'd LIKE stubborn again... Its not needed.

The tricks are in how you use the Living St... I've found jumping her around and joining /leaving different units depending on how you want to do dmg to the opponent, she becomes VERY potent.

Interesting. Not a fan of the walking Doms, but sounds like you're getting use of them. And I would completely agree on Celestine. She is just a great toolbox character.

frgsinwntr wrote:at 1850, i've had alot of success with this list:

Uriah +8 DC, +1 Crusader + rhino, EA, dozers
St Celestine

3 battle sister squads with 2 meltas and combi flamer, rhino with dozers,

2 Dominion squads in TL MM immolators (dozers), 2 meltas in the squad and a combi melta

1 Dominion squad of 5 with 2 melta guns (outflank)

3 exorcists

It hasn't lost yet.... 3-0-1

the list suffers in objective missions... 3 troop choices is tough! and KPs isn't easy either... but thats why i like it. Its a challenging codex to play that... if you play well, it will do well. I've found it to be very balanced... while I'd LIKE stubborn again... Its not needed.

The tricks are in how you use the Living St... I've found jumping her around and joining /leaving different units depending on how you want to do dmg to the opponent, she becomes VERY potent.

How is she useful to you by joining different units on the field? Do you use for the +1 to Faith rolls or the Leadership 10? How is she potent? I have found her to be underwhelming as far as what she brings to the table for my army as she doesn't hit very hard nor is she very tough.

I myself have been leery of fielding the TL MM Immolators becasue of the extra point cost. I don't feel they are worth 80 points. Perhaps if I had better luck outflanking and/or scouting then I coudl appreciate them a bit better.

andrewm9 wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:at 1850, i've had alot of success with this list:

Uriah +8 DC, +1 Crusader + rhino, EA, dozers
St Celestine

3 battle sister squads with 2 meltas and combi flamer, rhino with dozers,

2 Dominion squads in TL MM immolators (dozers), 2 meltas in the squad and a combi melta

1 Dominion squad of 5 with 2 melta guns (outflank)

3 exorcists

It hasn't lost yet.... 3-0-1

the list suffers in objective missions... 3 troop choices is tough! and KPs isn't easy either... but thats why i like it. Its a challenging codex to play that... if you play well, it will do well. I've found it to be very balanced... while I'd LIKE stubborn again... Its not needed.

The tricks are in how you use the Living St... I've found jumping her around and joining /leaving different units depending on how you want to do dmg to the opponent, she becomes VERY potent.

How is she useful to you by joining different units on the field? Do you use for the +1 to Faith rolls or the Leadership 10? How is she potent? I have found her to be underwhelming as far as what she brings to the table for my army as she doesn't hit very hard nor is she very tough.

I myself have been leery of fielding the TL MM Immolators becasue of the extra point cost. I don't feel they are worth 80 points. Perhaps if I had better luck outflanking and/or scouting then I coudl appreciate them a bit better.

Celestine in my army is a glorified distraction. Turn 1 I move her 12" then run her D6 straight forward. You have to shoot her and kill her or she will be in your lines causing havoc on turn 2. This isnt helped by me scouting up all of my immolators and firing melta into your lines on turn 1 if my shooting is average celestine will have atleast one you that she can possibly charge and she is a great MEQ killer with the 4+ power weapon. I have even charged her into MC's because she strikes first and has the ability to kill them if she rolls well. If not she can always comeback. a renewable resource.

Tomb King wrote:Celestine in my army is a glorified distraction. Turn 1 I move her 12" then run her D6 straight forward. You have to shoot her and kill her or she will be in your lines causing havoc on turn 2. This isnt helped by me scouting up all of my immolators and firing melta into your lines on turn 1 if my shooting is average celestine will have atleast one you that she can possibly charge and she is a great MEQ killer with the 4+ power weapon. I have even charged her into MC's because she strikes first and has the ability to kill them if she rolls well. If not she can always comeback. a renewable resource.

Seconded. Celestine isn't the killiest character or the nastiest, but she is the most consistent. She stays on the board and makes you pay either way. Either you expend resources to kill her and then she laughs at you and gets back up or you don't and she harasses you for the entire game. She messes with an opponent's head. Also, woe to the opponent who deploys on the line in spearhead.

Celestine definately earns her pts. I recently played a list that had 3 dominion squads, celestine, jacob bombs and the exorcists(organ looking tanks). I was pretty suprised by the firepower that it could put out. I am not sure about other stuff in the book but that seemed pretty competitive.

Okay, just because I'm always playing with lists up until the last minute, I have two lists that I'm contemplating for the 1850 event I'm going to on Saturday.

Tried and true:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen (6 DCA, 3 Crusaders)- Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / CCW / Meltabombs - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

Experimental Tweak:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen (6 DCA, 2 Crusaders)- Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (10) w/ 2x Flamer, 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Rhino
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

So the second list is the one that I'm considering. Dropped the Dom Immo to a Rhino, dropped the MB on a BSS and a single crusader to bump one Dominion up to 10 models and give them 2 meltaguns. The thought is that this will give me an additional first turn punch and some versatility to my dominions. It also allows me to do a mass first turn krak grenade assault against a vehicle line (Chimera, Venom, Razorback parking lots). The cons is that Dominions are usually a sacrifice unit and this makes them more important. That being said, they can stay in the rhino and stay effective with two shots out the top all the time. Hmm....

pretre wrote:Okay, just because I'm always playing with lists up until the last minute, I have two lists that I'm contemplating for the 1850 event I'm going to on Saturday.

Tried and true:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen (6 DCA, 3 Crusaders)- Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / CCW / Meltabombs - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

Experimental Tweak:
Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen (6 DCA, 2 Crusaders)- Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (10) w/ 2x Flamer, 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Rhino
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

So the second list is the one that I'm considering. Dropped the Dom Immo to a Rhino, dropped the MB on a BSS and a single crusader to bump one Dominion up to 10 models and give them 2 meltaguns. The thought is that this will give me an additional first turn punch and some versatility to my dominions. It also allows me to do a mass first turn krak grenade assault against a vehicle line (Chimera, Venom, Razorback parking lots). The cons is that Dominions are usually a sacrifice unit and this makes them more important. That being said, they can stay in the rhino and stay effective with two shots out the top all the time. Hmm....

Your trying to make dominions more then they are. A sacrificial melta attack or in your case flamer attack. Just keep them short and cheap. What happened to the dual conclave idea? I still think your crazy fro running flamer over melta especially in all 3 of the dominion squads. Have you tried running dual melta in one of the BS squads? I find that a versatile and mobile unit if I need it. Hell it was the BS squad with dual melta that popped the enemy land raider on turn 2 of my 2nd game last tournament as the dominions decided to outflank.

Tomb King wrote:Your trying to make dominions more then they are. A sacrificial melta attack or in your case flamer attack. Just keep them short and cheap. What happened to the dual conclave idea? I still think your crazy fro running flamer over melta especially in all 3 of the dominion squads. Have you tried running dual melta in one of the BS squads? I find that a versatile and mobile unit if I need it. Hell it was the BS squad with dual melta that popped the enemy land raider on turn 2 of my 2nd game last tournament as the dominions decided to outflank.

Yeah, that is entirely possible. Dual conclave is only for 2k+. Celestine is just too good for under 2k. I have tried dual melta in one of the BSS and it worked out alright. I like the bubble of 'F-You, don't come over here' and it works pretty well, giving me a bit of range on two of the squads. I can still move if necessary, but have options.

So that's one vote for leave the 10 girl dominion out. I could pretty easily swap one multi-melta for a meltagun. Hmm...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could also swap one of the dominions with 2xFlamer / Combi for 2xMelta. It's an even swap.

Edit: I screwed up the points, so the 10 girl squad is 210, not 190. That puts me 20 points over. Probably puts a nix on that.

Coming up tomorrow (Thurs), I plan to battle Amerikon's Battle Sisters with my Grey Knights at 1500pts. If time permits, I want to do 2 battles to show the different flavors of the GK's - Crowe-Purifiers and Draigowing.

Now these games won't really mean too much and it's all just for fun, but maybe my opponent will show me something that I'm not really seeing with the new Battle Sisters.

jy2 wrote:Coming up tomorrow (Thurs), I plan to battle Amerikon's Battle Sisters with my Grey Knights at 1500pts. If time permits, I want to do 2 battles to show the different flavors of the GK's - Crowe-Purifiers and Draigowing.

Now these games won't really mean too much and it's all just for fun, but maybe my opponent will show me something that I'm not really seeing with the new Battle Sisters.

Same with my game it is only one game and wont stand for much but will be something we can bring reference to on the matter of the GK thread.

Tomb King

People do not care much for personal exp. lol In most cases if you bring up the games you play the net will just say but math or that someone involved is inferior. lol

Draigo wrote:Tomb King

People do not care much for personal exp. lol In most cases if you bring up the games you play the net will just say but math or that someone involved is inferior. lol

Nonetheless the game is now posted with the expected results. GK's board wiping Nids.

Tomb King wrote:

Draigo wrote:Tomb King

People do not care much for personal exp. lol In most cases if you bring up the games you play the net will just say but math or that someone involved is inferior. lol

Nonetheless the game is now posted with the expected results. GK's board wiping Nids.

I wasnt all that suprised by the outcome after seeing the lists. Though I played last week in a tourney and played an even more SitW nid heavy list and beat it with Draigowing. After that game I was curious how that list would do vs msu purifiers for 2 reasons. 1. The purifiers have more shooting and 2. the purifiers don't have the banner which helped my death star eat 2 trygons, doom, 2 tervigons and a buncha gribblies. Obviously the banner didnt help kill the small stuff cept allowing quick kills on the bigger stuff and allowing the squad to take fewer wounds/casualities.

Going to have to try that list. I have been sitting on SAint and really want to see if I like her more than Kyrinov and his fearless.

Last minute changes with paint touch-ups complete:

Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen (6 DCA, 2 Crusaders) - Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun x2, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (10) w/ 2x Flamer, 2x Meltagun, Bolter / CCW - Rhino
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

Had some math issues with the original 10 Dom list. Basically, swapped TL-MM Immo, Combi, 1 Crusader, Heavy Flamer to Meltagun and Meltabombs for 5 more Doms with 2 more meltaguns in a rhino. I think it will be an interesting experiment.

pretre wrote:Last minute changes with paint touch-ups complete:

Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen (6 DCA, 2 Crusaders) - Rhino (Dozer)
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun x2, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Battle Sister Squad (10) w/ Meltagun, Multimelta, Bolt Pistol / Chainsword - Rhino
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Chainsword - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (5) w/ 2x Flamer, Combi-melta / Bolt Pistol - Immo (TL-MM)
Dominion Squad (10) w/ 2x Flamer, 2x Meltagun, Bolter / CCW - Rhino
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

Had some math issues with the original 10 Dom list. Basically, swapped TL-MM Immo, Combi, 1 Crusader, Heavy Flamer to Meltagun and Meltabombs for 5 more Doms with 2 more meltaguns in a rhino. I think it will be an interesting experiment.

I'de run 3 crusaders and 5 DCA personally. My list had 4 crusaders and 5 DCA as I got tired of my DCA dying if I got shot at haha. Let me know how the dual melta sisters do for you though.

Tomb King wrote:I'de run 3 crusaders and 5 DCA personally. My list had 4 crusaders and 5 DCA as I got tired of my DCA dying if I got shot at haha. Let me know how the dual melta sisters do for you though.

I could swap it. I like my choppy chicks though.

andrewm9 wrote:

How is she useful to you by joining different units on the field? Do you use for the +1 to Faith rolls or the Leadership 10? How is she potent? I have found her to be underwhelming as far as what she brings to the table for my army as she doesn't hit very hard nor is she very tough.

I myself have been leery of fielding the TL MM Immolators becasue of the extra point cost. I don't feel they are worth 80 points. Perhaps if I had better luck outflanking and/or scouting then I coudl appreciate them a bit better.

a unit of sisters moves up, she joins the unit. you do the unthinkable AND CHARGE with them. she rerolls 1's to hit making her more potent.

Your DCA Uriah bomb can't reach the target, you jump her up infront joining the unit and bringing the enemy in charge range... AND she rerolls misses and gets FNP and Gets +1 attack

You are playing super aggressive and she jumps and joins a dominion squad... her heavy flamer becomes twinlinked

while looked at in a vacuum there are drawbacks to each of these tactics... there are situations where they become very useful.

She jumps and joins a celetian squad... she gets their +1 bonus str on the charge... (useful vs vehicles since she sucks vs them)


THE TL MM is totally worth it. if you can't cause dmg with it on the scout move, you are giving another target they HAVE to deal with or it will cause endless headaches. Threat saturation is a valid strategy (its why spam works)

Hi guys I have not played the new codex yet, but I have read it through and after reading what you guys have written I was wondering something. Have any of you tried putting the Dominion squads in a repressor scouting forward melta any tank and use the heavy flamer on the survivors. Six models can fire out of the Repressor so they don’t even have to get out and the tank has a heavy flamer. Plus it is 50pts, cheaper than the immolator. It sounds like a good idea anyone try it?

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Hi guys I have not played the new codex yet, but I have read it through and after reading what you guys have written I was wondering something. Have any of you tried putting the Dominion squads in a repressor scouting forward melta any tank and use the heavy flamer on the survivors. Six models can fire out of the Repressor so they don’t even have to get out and the tank has a heavy flamer. Plus it is 50pts, cheaper than the immolator. It sounds like a good idea anyone try it?

Repressor is forge world so not allowed in standard tournaments. Though I would run it if I could.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Hi guys I have not played the new codex yet, but I have read it through and after reading what you guys have written I was wondering something. Have any of you tried putting the Dominion squads in a repressor scouting forward melta any tank and use the heavy flamer on the survivors. Six models can fire out of the Repressor so they don’t even have to get out and the tank has a heavy flamer. Plus it is 50pts, cheaper than the immolator. It sounds like a good idea anyone try it?

Yea... sadly if it was in the actual codex and not forgeworld I think it'd be great!

I kind of wish the sisters had a way of unlocking seraphim or celestians as troop units... would add some variety to the lists we'd see. Like... if you take a cannoness the Celestians are troop choices... or if you take St Celestine a single seraphim unit could be a troop unit... would be nice to see variety

frgsinwntr wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Hi guys I have not played the new codex yet, but I have read it through and after reading what you guys have written I was wondering something. Have any of you tried putting the Dominion squads in a repressor scouting forward melta any tank and use the heavy flamer on the survivors. Six models can fire out of the Repressor so they don’t even have to get out and the tank has a heavy flamer. Plus it is 50pts, cheaper than the immolator. It sounds like a good idea anyone try it?

Yea... sadly if it was in the actual codex and not forgeworld I think it'd be great!

I kind of wish the sisters had a way of unlocking seraphim or celestians as troop units... would add some variety to the lists we'd see. Like... if you take a cannoness the Celestians are troop choices... or if you take St Celestine a single seraphim unit could be a troop unit... would be nice to see variety

QFT! It sucks only have one troop choice at a pre-determined number of 10. Cant even do msu spam and they arent that great.

Tomb King wrote:QFT! It sucks only have one troop choice at a pre-determined number of 10. Cant even do msu spam and they arent that great.

I wouldn't mind not being able to do MSU if they were a bit stronger. Right now, they're weak enough that I want to do minimums. BSS are a tax I pay for the rest of the army.

For a little more fire power it might be nice to try a command squad. It is alsmost like a retributor squad that does not take up a heavy spot. Cuts down on combat ability because you have to have to give up celestine or a battle conclave but with a command squad a retributor and 2 exorcists that is a decent amount of long range shooting. Granted it is better against hords, but a lot of shots none the less.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:For a little more fire power it might be nice to try a command squad. It is alsmost like a retributor squad that does not take up a heavy spot. Cuts down on combat ability because you have to have to give up celestine or a battle conclave but with a command squad a retributor and 2 exorcists that is a decent amount of long range shooting. Granted it is better against hords, but a lot of shots none the less.

Yeah, we were talking about a Canoness and Command Squad with Multimeltas. Problem is cost.

Canoness, 65
Command Squad w/ 4 MM and Simulacrum - 175
Rhino 35
275 for a Rhino that has 4 MM and can move and shoot.

Nasty as all heck, but not worth it.

We have discussed before that they really need to swap the powers of the Command Squad and Celestians. Celestians have a CC power but can't take CC upgrades. Command Squads have a shooty power and can. If Celestians had the Command Faith power and could take 2 special or 2 heavy, they'd be awesome. If Command Squads had the Celestian power and maybe retinue, they'd be decent as a counter charge unit.

pretre wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:For a little more fire power it might be nice to try a command squad. It is alsmost like a retributor squad that does not take up a heavy spot. Cuts down on combat ability because you have to have to give up celestine or a battle conclave but with a command squad a retributor and 2 exorcists that is a decent amount of long range shooting. Granted it is better against hords, but a lot of shots none the less.

Yeah, we were talking about a Canoness and Command Squad with Multimeltas. Problem is cost.

Canoness, 65
Command Squad w/ 4 MM and Simulacrum - 175
Rhino 35
275 for a Rhino that has 4 MM and can move and shoot.

Nasty as all heck, but not worth it.

We have discussed before that they really need to swap the powers of the Command Squad and Celestians. Celestians have a CC power but can't take CC upgrades. Command Squads have a shooty power and can. If Celestians had the Command Faith power and could take 2 special or 2 heavy, they'd be awesome. If Command Squads had the Celestian power and maybe retinue, they'd be decent as a counter charge unit.

Well I wouldn't really leave the cannoness with them send her off with someone esle and leave them behind to shoot. So you can cut points by saving on the rhino for them, they don'e really need it if they are going to shoot, their act of faith gives them relentless so the rhino is really wasted on them anyway. You can also save a few points on one MM, You can only have 3, only the celestians in the squad can have a heavy the diologer and hospitaler chicks have to keep the equipment them came with. You can cut it down to 145 for 3 MM, not too bad for a 5 man squad with feel no pain and relentless.

CMD squads can only have 3 MM, 1x Dialogus, and 1x Hospitale.
But your right, not worth it.

Ray Age wrote:CMD squads can only have 3 MM, 1x Dialogus, and 1x Hospitale.
But your right, not worth it.

personally I am thinking 3 heavy bolters and feel not pain is not bad for 130. Send the Cannoness off to join the battle conclave, crusaders with +1 I and prefered enemy not bad.

You kinda need the Rhino (foot slogging is a bad idea, even with relentless) and the Canoness is an opportunity cost that you can't ignore, even if she is usefull somewhere else.

pretre wrote:You kinda need the Rhino (foot slogging is a bad idea, even with relentless) and the Canoness is an opportunity cost that you can't ignore, even if she is usefull somewhere else.

You don't really need the Rhino with heavy bolters 36 inch range is plenty unless you deploy them on the very edge of the table.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

pretre wrote:You kinda need the Rhino (foot slogging is a bad idea, even with relentless) and the Canoness is an opportunity cost that you can't ignore, even if she is usefull somewhere else.

You don't really need the Rhino with heavy bolters 36 inch range is plenty unless you deploy them on the very edge of the table.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Mobility and protection of the rhino is important. If your whole army is foot-slogging, sure they can get away with not being mechanized. But if you're doing mech or semi-mech, they're gonna get blown off the board (one of the reasons I don't like Rets).

Its not like they are naked out there. Put them in a building or bunker where they have a good vantage point, they they have cover, a 3+, a 6++ and feel no pain. If after all that you opponent wants to put a lot into killing 5 chick more power to them, they are then leaving the rest of your army alone. If you put them in the rhino you are relying on the faith point to fire more then one weapon when you could save that point for the rest of the army.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Its not like they are naked out there. Put them in a building or bunker where they have a good vantage point, they they have cover, a 3+, a 6++ and feel no pain. If after all that you opponent wants to put a lot into killing 5 chick more power to them, they are then leaving the rest of your army alone. If you put them in the rhino you are relying on the faith point to fire more then one weapon when you could save that point for the rest of the army.

/shrug YMMV.

Perfect vantage point cover is unlikely in most games I play.

you should be able to find at least one good spot for them at least 25% of the board should be cover. If not you should get your opponent to put some more on.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:you should be able to find at least one good spot for them at least 25% of the board should be cover.

Right, but this is actually a tactical trap that a lot of players set for themselves.

Let's say we are playing pitched battle and roll for first turn and I get it. You have two foot-slogging 'devastator' type units (rets, celestian command, whatever). I choose to go first and look at the board. One side has several two floor ruins all the way to the right with blocked line of sight to parts of the table and the other side has no ruins, but chunks of area terrain spread down the length.

If I choose the side without ruins and deploy centrally, I can almost guarantee where you will put your dev units and then during the first turn, I can move in such a way as to completely neutralize them for multiple turns.

Players love to put their devs in cover and it screws them. If my opponents relentless devs were in a vehicle, they could counter my movement and still fire.

Just an example. Move and shoot units are generally a better choice than static units when all other things are equal.

pretre wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:you should be able to find at least one good spot for them at least 25% of the board should be cover.

Right, but this is actually a tactical trap that a lot of players set for themselves.

Let's say we are playing pitched battle and roll for first turn and I get it. You have two foot-slogging 'devastator' type units (rets, celestian command, whatever). I choose to go first and look at the board. One side has several two floor ruins all the way to the right with blocked line of sight to parts of the table and the other side has no ruins, but chunks of area terrain spread down the length.

If I choose the side without ruins and deploy centrally, I can almost guarantee where you will put your dev units and then during the first turn, I can move in such a way as to completely neutralize them for multiple turns.

Players love to put their devs in cover and it screws them. If my opponents relentless devs were in a vehicle, they could counter my movement and still fire.

Just an example. Move and shoot units are generally a better choice than static units when all other things are equal.

Not every table is going to be laid out so one sided. It should be more even than that because both players should be taking turns placing terrain and if you want to add an extra level scatter them 2 D6. Against some armies I would still try it for some variety. I guess it just seems boring to play the same Celestine, Jacobs, 3 dominions list over and over again.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Not every table is going to be laid out so one sided. It should be more even than that because both players should be taking turns placing terrain and if you want to add an extra level scatter them 2 D6. Against some armies I would still try it for some variety. I guess it just seems boring to play the same Celestine, Jacobs, 3 dominions list over and over again.

Of course, I'm just saying it is better to have a Rhino and not use it than not have one at all. And so far, I haven't gotten bored of it.

Have you used repentia much?

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Have you used repentia much?

A little bit. They pair well with Retributors, since the Rets don't usually need to use their transport and the Reps can hijack it. In the games that I used them in, they actually did pretty well. I would use them more if they could get their own transport.

pretre wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Have you used repentia much?

A little bit. They pair well with Retributors, since the Rets don't usually need to use their transport and the Reps can hijack it. In the games that I used them in, they actually did pretty well. I would use them more if they could get their own transport.

I like the idea of them in a Rhino/Repressor with a priest for re-rolls. What do you think in a freindly competative game about using the old zelot rules from the WD. I never used them in the WH list becuase there were so many other good options in there, but I think they really could fit in the WD dex.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

pretre wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Have you used repentia much?

A little bit. They pair well with Retributors, since the Rets don't usually need to use their transport and the Reps can hijack it. In the games that I used them in, they actually did pretty well. I would use them more if they could get their own transport.

I like the idea of them in a Rhino/Repressor with a priest for re-rolls. What do you think in a freindly competative game about using the old zelot rules from the WD. I never used them in the WH list becuase there were so many other good options in there, but I think they really could fit in the WD dex.

If you're going to use the Zealot rules, just get a copy of Codex: Chapter Approved and use the Redemptionist rules and the 3rd ed Faith. They were much better.

I used to run two big squads of them and they would rip anything apart.

One other note about throwing in a canoness with the Uriah bomb-- the conclave isn't faithful, so they wouldn't benefit from the act of faith, unfortunately.

I might try and dig out the old chapter approved, I think it is locked away in the gaming vault down stairs. The new list has its perks, but in a friendly game for a competitive edge I like the WH list. We use forgeworld rules and the IA 2 update storm troopers and Inquisitors can take valkyries as transports. Lend those to some sisters and flying nuns Plus forge world relisted the points for Inquisitorial/sisters rhinos and chimeras to the new levels. I thought that those changes could really give the WH list an edge in addition to all of the anti-psyker stuff they already have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zefig wrote:One other note about throwing in a canoness with the Uriah bomb-- the conclave isn't faithful, so they wouldn't benefit from the act of faith, unfortunately.

doh

good point

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I might try and dig out the old chapter approved, I think it is locked away in the gaming vault down stairs. The new list has its perks, but in a friendly game for a competitive edge I like the WH list. We use forgeworld rules and the IA 2 update storm troopers and Inquisitors can take valkyries as transports. Lend those to some sisters and flying nuns Plus forge world relisted the points for Inquisitorial/sisters rhinos and chimeras to the new levels. I thought that those changes could really give the WH list an edge in addition to all of the anti-psyker stuff they already have.

Well, in that case you're playing a whole different game than we are. lol Definitely not for competitive events.

I always thought sisters should get access to Valk/Vend/some variant.

pretre wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I might try and dig out the old chapter approved, I think it is locked away in the gaming vault down stairs. The new list has its perks, but in a friendly game for a competitive edge I like the WH list. We use forgeworld rules and the IA 2 update storm troopers and Inquisitors can take valkyries as transports. Lend those to some sisters and flying nuns Plus forge world relisted the points for Inquisitorial/sisters rhinos and chimeras to the new levels. I thought that those changes could really give the WH list an edge in addition to all of the anti-psyker stuff they already have.

Well, in that case you're playing a whole different game than we are. lol Definitely not for competitive events.

I always thought sisters should get access to Valk/Vend/some variant.

yeah it is a different game play with the storm troopers and Inquisitors backing up the sisters, a little variety is nice. The sisters codex looks nice for a challenge and to hit the other guy with something unexpected. Though that list needs something more for psyker defense.

Best Overall today with three wins. SW razorspam, BA with Mephiston and GK hybrid. More detail later.

pretre wrote:Best Overall today with three wins. SW razorspam, BA with Mephiston and GK hybrid. More detail later.

Thats awsome, let us know if you will be putting up some battle reports.

Nice. Congrats! Reports or summaries would be sweet.

I've been working on a 1k sisters list and have been following this post closely for a while now. There are no surprises in my list:

mini Uriah bomb in rhino (4dca/2cr)
St Celestine
2x BSS w m/mm
Dominion squad w/ 2m in mm immolator
Exorcist

(I have a variant that replaces the Exorcist with heavy bolter retributors)

I've done really well in the few games that I've played so far (well two - dark angels and then eldar/chaos in a 2 on 2), but I was wondering how I should deal with hoard lists like the ones in this thread (especially with the exorcist version of my list):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429478.page

Tank shock the large groups of boyz?
Use Celestine to template attack, and then assault the boyz squads solo? If she dies, she dies (and then returns to do it again because it was so fun).
I know the rule about never getting out of the rhinos, but do you break that to bolter large hoard squads down to size?

I'm not an experienced player at all so I'd love to hear the tactics you guys would use.

I'm playing a very small points league, starting at 600 and ending at 1000. We're currently at 800, and I found that exorcists just really haven't been performing well. That might be more to do with the armies I've faced, but I've seen far more infantry than mech. Meltas are kind of the same way really, although they're handy to have so I've been going with a melta squad and a flamer squad. Retributors, however, have been awesome. That many rending shots at that points level is killer.

Started my BR today and will finish up on Saturday. Lists and Missions are up:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429752.page

I'm wanting to get back into the game with Sisters, but as of now I'm just waiting for the plastic infantry. I'm thinking about buying Rhino's and painting them up as I wait. But I'm terrified that when they actually DO get a codex, there will be Repressors in there and the Rhino won't even be a choice.

ShatteredBlade wrote:I'm wanting to get back into the game with Sisters, but as of now I'm just waiting for the plastic infantry. I'm thinking about buying Rhino's and painting them up as I wait. But I'm terrified that when they actually DO get a codex, there will be Repressors in there and the Rhino won't even be a choice.

You've got probably 2 years, at minimum, before you need to worry about plastic sisters. Most of us have been waiting for almost 15 years on the rumors of plastic sisters, so I wouldn't sweat it. As for Repressors, just get the Immolator kit and use that to make your rhinos. Should be an easy conversion if they ever add Repressors to the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, updated my BR thread with all the gory details:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429752.page

pretre wrote: As for Repressors, just get the Immolator kit and use that to make your rhinos. Should be an easy conversion if they ever add Repressors to the codex.

This part is the most important, for a small incremental cost you get SoB iconography and a potential immolator if you want. The biggest mistake I made with SoB was buying 3 Rhinos instead of Immolators.

calypso2ts wrote:

pretre wrote: As for Repressors, just get the Immolator kit and use that to make your rhinos. Should be an easy conversion if they ever add Repressors to the codex.

This part is the most important, for a small incremental cost you get SoB iconography and a potential immolator if you want. The biggest mistake I made with SoB was buying 3 Rhinos instead of Immolators.

Yeah, you get SO many bits out of those Immo kits for an extra 2 dollars. And the SOB 'Rhinos' with the top part look awesome.

pretre wrote:

ShatteredBlade wrote:I'm wanting to get back into the game with Sisters, but as of now I'm just waiting for the plastic infantry. I'm thinking about buying Rhino's and painting them up as I wait. But I'm terrified that when they actually DO get a codex, there will be Repressors in there and the Rhino won't even be a choice.

You've got probably 2 years, at minimum, before you need to worry about plastic sisters. Most of us have been waiting for almost 15 years on the rumors of plastic sisters, so I wouldn't sweat it. As for Repressors, just get the Immolator kit and use that to make your rhinos. Should be an easy conversion if they ever add Repressors to the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, updated my BR thread with all the gory details:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429752.page

Keep in mind that the Repressor is still just a rhino chassis with a dozer blade thrown on the front and the simple conversion kit from forgeworld. Or you can even buy the complete kit from forgeworld and hold onto the extra parts until you need repressors. Or even just use repressors currently.

If a potential plastic kit ends up anything like the forge world kit, the "repressor" bit on top just slots in over everything. It's completely removable if you don't glue it down.

I'm late to the conversation, I've been playing Sisters since 2nd ed. I've been playing the codex for a while now and been having some good luck with them. So what I'll say is what I usually run.

St. Celestine

Jacobus

4 DCA/2 Crusaders/ H-F Immolator

3 BSS 2 Melta, combi melta, Rhino

2 5 girl Doms, 2 melta, combi melta, Banner, H-F Immo

5 Seras, 2 twin-hand flamer

2 Exorcist

5 Rets 4 H-Flamers, Banner, combi melta

I use the Seraphim as a Celestine delivery system

Scout the Doms to allow them to hide behind them

Use the Rets to soften up targets and then kill anything in the entire world with DCA.

Here's a video of some of the girls in action at my last tourny

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/428728.page

And a Fan codex I was working on a while ago.

http://anjetto.deviantart.com/art/Trail-sisters-of-battle-codex-6-Jan-2012-278039115

Where do you put Uriah?

With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

Celtic Strike wrote:With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

The reason he asked is you have the battle concave in an immolator with only a 6 model capacity. Adding uriah would make it 7. I really hope you weren't doing that haha.

IcedAnimals wrote:

pretre wrote:

ShatteredBlade wrote:I'm wanting to get back into the game with Sisters, but as of now I'm just waiting for the plastic infantry. I'm thinking about buying Rhino's and painting them up as I wait. But I'm terrified that when they actually DO get a codex, there will be Repressors in there and the Rhino won't even be a choice.

You've got probably 2 years, at minimum, before you need to worry about plastic sisters. Most of us have been waiting for almost 15 years on the rumors of plastic sisters, so I wouldn't sweat it. As for Repressors, just get the Immolator kit and use that to make your rhinos. Should be an easy conversion if they ever add Repressors to the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, updated my BR thread with all the gory details:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429752.page

Keep in mind that the Repressor is still just a rhino chassis with a dozer blade thrown on the front and the simple conversion kit from forgeworld. Or you can even buy the complete kit from forgeworld and hold onto the extra parts until you need repressors. Or even just use repressors currently.

Well, the Forge World repressors I've built suffered from resin shrinkage, the two that I've built, so I didn't really want to deal with that as no amount of heating it up got it to fit as both upgrade kits, both from separate batches just plain didn't fit upon the rhino. When I did finally sand down the rhino and used GS to fit it in, it still just looked like gak, but I've decided to just built and paint the exorcists and Immolators, as others have suggested upon this page. But let us drop it, as it is OT

You can't. You have 4 DCA/2 Crusaders + Uriah in a 6 Model Transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tomb King wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

The reason he asked is you have the battle concave in an immolator with only a 6 model capacity. Adding uriah would make it 7. I really hope you weren't doing that haha.

Damn, you ninja'd me.

pretre wrote:You can't. You have 4 DCA/2 Crusaders + Uriah in a 6 Model Transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tomb King wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

The reason he asked is you have the battle concave in an immolator with only a 6 model capacity. Adding uriah would make it 7. I really hope you weren't doing that haha.

Damn, you ninja'd me.

Thats what you get for taking away my passing test grade

His battle report said rhino instead of immolator so maybe a recent change without realizing the bad side effect hehe.

Tomb King wrote:His battle report said rhino instead of immolator so maybe a recent change without realizing the bad side effect hehe.

Yeah, I really want to check out his BR's but I am morally opposed to video battle reports.

in a thought: heavy flamers are to pricey for my taste, and to short ranged. For Retris, i take HB.
my composition is 1495:
Uriah bomb 7DCA2Cru in rhino w dozer
St.Cele - for its points, versatile. I'm in love for 2000pt at max XD
2 BSS w 2 meltas combi melta in rhino
2 10 lady dominions w 3 melta and a flamer in rhino
2 retributors w 4 HB
one exorcist.

my thoughts of useing 10 lady dominion squad is that i can have more chance to pop anything.
On the combi weapons - since their price is the same - im thinking on swapable types, as i do on all melta type weapons. Against Horde type armies - not actual lists - im willing to sac a few meltas for more flamers.

why i use 1 exorcist: i dont like it that much as i like retris, but has its advantages, esp final round.
why dont i use 5 domi mm imos? for 80 pt a 3 lascannon hit die type vehicle isnt my idea of greatness. 3 lascannons on a 10 lady squad...well maybe 2 die. 2 out of 10, boohoo. And the rhino is cheaper w the same armor values and 2 fire points. And if the immo is popped, loseing 1-2 yout of 5 means bad news, loseing 1-2 out of 10 is just calculated casualty.

5 lady domis in rhino: price effective, but not combat effective. The only advantage is that you provide more targets to be hit w big gunz, and makeing it more kp.

if i count the transports, the hq and the squads apart, thats 15 kp.

going to 1850, i have a 1825 composition, adding a nother BSS and a 10 lady seraphim, w no upgrades so far.
On the seraphm upgrades: 10pt each for an s3ap5 template pistol. No way! Fits in the legacy of the sisters, but to-to-to over priced. 5 point for an s4ap5 flamer and 10 for an s3 ap5 hand flamer - am i the only who doesnt find logic in that?
inferno pistol?! wtf 15 pf for a pistol that has a range of 6" and is a metla. WTF?! again! Eviscerators are pricey to, but are the only logical up I'd take for any melee model i use. but for 25pt, no thanks - or maybe to fill in the remaining 25.

Seraphim get to fire both those pistols, don't they? Two flame templates at S3 ap6. Which with their faith to re-roll wounds essencially makes them two S4 ap6 attacks.
The faster or farther a unit can move, the more expensive the guns they carry are, since they're more likely to get a chance to use them.
Especially since they can hit and run, so they can land close to an enemy, flame the bajesus out of them, assault them and either choose to run away to safety or stay in the fight one more round to prevent getting shot to pieces then escape and use the flamers again.
An Assault squad pays 10 points for a flamer, as opposed to the 5 point it is for every other normal space marine. The sisters get two flamers for 20 points.

I would guess, if they didn't have the act of faith that is particularly designed for flamers, or they didn't have hit and run so they had a chance to use the flamer more than once, and they didn't have jump packs so they'd be in range to flame once for sure, it'd be cheaper.

But yeah, it's a lot of points on a single model for the sisters army, especially one that still dies faster than a marine but pays the "same" amount for the weapon.

(of course, if leak dex is real, getting to use those inferno pistols and flamers in CC would be nasty as all get out, and then you could assault, hit and run, and then shoot them to death afterwards. hehe.)

so on a basis vs GEQ: you wound on 4+, plus reroll the failed on a 4+, thats a 75% wounding with a normal GEQ general equiping the army if able to 4+ saves, meaning 37.5% of those wounds will actualy cause causualty. Geting a dominion squad of 10 ladies flamers and haveing twin-link is much more fun and cots less - 10lady domi w flamers and combi flamer in rhino 190, 10 seras w 2 two hand flamers 195.

Agreed, the strength of the Seras is not TL-Flamer wounds.

Keep in mind though that the Seraphs get 2 templates each. Which for a 5 girl squad with 2 flamers might make them a bit cheaper than a 10 dom squad with 4 flamers, etc.

well, in math hammer, i would need 3 hits in average to take out a power armor model, meaning 15 shots. Yeah, can rerol failed invul saves, but only one save can be rolled, so for a hail of bolter fire, you wil role armor. 15 shots from bolters rapid fire means i have 7-8 models with standard bolters. a BSS squad from the cover of a rhino?

My idea of seraphs is distraction and mocking, if ignored, krackgrenadeing the tanks in the back. To fragile to use in a squad of 5, esp for its points with only the hand flamers. what, they cost 70 less than a 10 lady domi, and can die faster....much much faster.

in the pc version, they are godesses, but in tabletop, havent found real advantages. Two bolt pistol shots with a possible reroll failed wounds rule. so vs GEQ you wound on a 3+ and they get to make saves with the effichiency of fireing w a bolter from rapid fire, but you are able to assault and get one ewtra attack cause of the pistols. Greedy me, that just isnt my idea of a main disruption force.

sorry, i mis calculated the number of shots i would require. on a bs value of 4 i would need 30 shots in average. so thats basically 2 MEQ squads...or 30 gretchin with a little luck XD

Yeah, I love that Seras got some love in the update, but still can't field them when I could be fielding Doms.

pretre wrote:Agreed, the strength of the Seras is not TL-Flamer wounds.

Keep in mind though that the Seraphs get 2 templates each. Which for a 5 girl squad with 2 flamers might make them a bit cheaper than a 10 dom squad with 4 flamers, etc.

What do you see as their strength then? That is all I use Seraphim for as I have never been enamored by the paired inferno pistols due to thier price and range. I realize I may be alone in that since most people use 3 Dominion squads for fast attack. I use them as my trouble shooters so to speak. Being highly mobile and versatile, they can usually be where I need them quickly and support another unit.

andrewm9 wrote:What do you see as their strength then? That is all I use Seraphim for as I have never been enamored by the paired inferno pistols due to thier price and range. I realize I may be alone in that since most people use 3 Dominion squads for fast attack. I use them as my trouble shooters so to speak. Being highly mobile and versatile, they can usually be where I need them quickly and support another unit.

To be honest, their strength is lacking. The double tap for each pistol is nice, H&R is nice (although init sucks), but their mobility is their only real draw. They can get where you need them without getting stunned or shaken.

The problem is that they are T3/3+/6++ models, so don't last long on a battlefield if left in the open.

DS behind cover, 12" moves from cover to cover and grenade that nasty artilery...and then if the enemy has something left that isnt to cc, fetch it up, tie it down and BURN THE HERETIC! Other than that, Seras are just not worth it, esp not their spec pistols.

enfernux wrote:DS behind cover, 12" moves from cover to cover and grenade that nasty artilery...and then if the enemy has something left that isnt to cc, fetch it up, tie it down and BURN THE HERETIC! Other than that, Seras are just not worth it, esp not their spec pistols.

So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

on the main point of me being here:
could someone try and help me make a list, that isnt a 1500pt uriah-celestine, 2-3 domi based list? And some Tacs on the useage wouldnt be bad as well.
My main problems are what to and what to not in terms of use vs 'dexes and use in general. By my list i think it is in a no brain obvious trieing to not use standards, but the other hq just arent worth it or cant fit in the poinst specifide.
Against a few types i know how to play, because i play with them, but that isnt a general "survive all comers" thing - my choice are GEQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:
So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

what you want to field them for AI blast weapons target?

enfernux wrote:on the main point of me being here:
could someone try and help me make a list, that isnt a 1500pt uriah-celestine, 2-3 domi based list? And some Tacs on the useage wouldnt be bad as well.

We can, but so far the Uriah/Celestine, 2-3 Doms list is the competitive one, so you would be sacrficing competitiveness for being different.

The only other list that I would try right now, if I was inclined would be a walking Kyrinov list.

Kyrinov - Battle Conclave
(At high points levels Canoness with command squad and 3xMM)
Repentia x 2
BSS x3 (Walking big squads)
Seraphim 0-3
Retributors x3
Add TL-MM to any squads you want as fire support with any points that are left.

Use a wave approach. Put a big squad of Sisters in front with Reps and Battle Conclave behind to dissuade people from assaulting you. Walk forward, keep Kyrinov in the middle of the mess so you're a huge wave of fearless 3+/6++ models.

It isn't my playstyle, but it is the other idea that I've had for a competitive list.

pretre wrote:So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

I agree. Yuck! I have my Seraphim behind a couple of Rhinos for moving cover at least for the first turn and then they jump where they need to hose'em down with fire and bolts. Its been fairly effectice. Not the killiest unit to be sure but I use it for its mobility and nifty faith ability.

if i want mobility, i'd just stick to my DE. And in our games, cover is not so effective, with the opponents being Eldar and IG, all G weapons.
and yeah, id rather go 3rd turn than to lose them in 1st or 2nd. Yuck, yeah. Work, yeah. Different tacs, yeah

Yeah, sorry. It was a Rhino, I just did a typo.

As for the cost benefit of Seras Vs. Doms Vs. Rets I did some math hammer for them on another thread and I think I'll transfer it over here as well.

First some control assumptions:
1) Assume 5 hits per template vs a marine squad
2) Assume only flamers hit
3) Assume NO transports

5 Dominions, 2 Flamers, 1 Combi flamer = 90 points
5 Retributors, 4 Heavy flamers = 145 points
5 Seraphim, 2 twin hand flamers =120 points

Doms = 15 hits
Rets = 20 hits
Sera = 20 hits

Doms = 11.25 wounds
Rets = 13.2 wounds
Sera = 11 wounds

Doms = 3.7 Dead MEQ
Rets = 5.75 Dead MEQ (Including roughly 2 Rends)
Sera = 3.65 Dead MEQ

Doms = 0.041 Dead MEQ per point
Rets = 0.040 Dead MEQ per point
Sera = 0.030 Dead MEQ per point

Well, after that examination it looks like Doms and Rets are roughly equal with Seraphim lagging behind. Now, Seraphim aren't as obviously disadvantaged as it appears on first glance.

Here's the advantages they have:
They don't need a transport, they get to move 12 and run without the added cost/ protection of an Immolator.

They have roughly a 21% chance of getting their 6++ save because of their re-roll (7-ish % more) AND double the chance of getting their Act of faith off for FREE.

(If Rets and Doms want that ability it costs them an extra 20 points per squad which brings their effectiveness down quiet considerably, roughly the same as the naked Seraphim 0.035 and 0.034 respectively)

The Rets and the Doms have to buy a Rhino/Immolator if they want to be used effectively, bringing their kill/cost ratio down even lower (Several points below that of the Seraphim) but gain considerable firepower range and protection so it becomes something of a moot point.

Doms have the ability to scout, gaining first turn kills and disruption or outflank, destroying hidden units or hard to get artillery pieces.

So, overall, they're pretty comparable when looked at from a purely mathematical perspective. At least Doms and Seraphim are, their increased mobility (Scout/Cheap jump units) gives them more flexibility than Retributors but the Rets a slightly more killy (and more sexy fun in my opinion)

on the rets i would never use heavy flamers. for those points id rather take an exorcist.
or aamof, 4 w HB can be more...killy. To use the HF, the rets would have to be very very close, meaning the enemy is just a fex inches away from assault range, or the rets move, in which case they cant fire. HB on the other hand a stationary 36" hail of bolts also capeable of rending. less kils/round, more rounds to fire, more kills, less points.
second, the hand flamers are s3, so you wound on a 5+ vs meq. 3.33
mybe our math is a bit different, but as i calc for my DE, and for that it works, but theres difference in math and math.
Next: a 5 lady sera squad is just to litle to do anything good for their points. Personally a favorite use for them in my ideals would be inferno and plasma pistol, hit the turets in the back then assault them - and hope you wont get an explode, so you can continue your job, safe from the other vehicles. But to do that, they need to survive AND give out a hail of krak grenades. For that, 10 mods are better, and 10 domi in a rhino w flamers and combi flamer is much cheeper. if i keep the seras "naked", then they are 40 points cheeper but w no shield in ther arses...i mean, faces - oops.

I like rets, my only problem is they cant be outfited w plasma cannons XD

in overall, i will not be useing seras in max 1500, but above one unite can be accounted for "naked"

enfernux wrote:on the rets i would never use heavy flamers. for those points id rather take an exorcist.
or aamof, 4 w HB can be more...killy. To use the HF, the rets would have to be very very close, meaning the enemy is just a fex inches away from assault range, or the rets move, in which case they cant fire.

The idea is to put them in an immo or rhino. And Heavy Flamers are assault so they can still fire.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Yeah, I think that that's the difference. In most of the competitive events I see, you see a lot of mechanized armies so D's do not show up much. Shadowfields are a concern, but again those don't show up in a lot of the competitive DE lists I see (I see a lot more Flickers which concern me when a lot of my guns are only one shot and rely on their strength+ap1 to do the damage, not on volume).

Also, to be fair, we are talking about the competitive aspects of the list, meaning the use of this book/codex at competitive events (i.e. RTTs, GTs, etc).

Yeah, see this comment? Just went to a GW "big" tourney and got whacked because I listened to too many people on this forum saying everyone is running mech. (Except that everyone is NOT running mech, they are running quite a variety.)

sfshilo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Yeah, I think that that's the difference. In most of the competitive events I see, you see a lot of mechanized armies so D's do not show up much. Shadowfields are a concern, but again those don't show up in a lot of the competitive DE lists I see (I see a lot more Flickers which concern me when a lot of my guns are only one shot and rely on their strength+ap1 to do the damage, not on volume).

Also, to be fair, we are talking about the competitive aspects of the list, meaning the use of this book/codex at competitive events (i.e. RTTs, GTs, etc).

Yeah, see this comment? Just went to a GW "big" tourney and got whacked because I listened to too many people on this forum saying everyone is running mech. (Except that everyone is NOT running mech, they are running quite a variety.)

You notice how I said 'most' in my posts above. Yeah... It isn't a bad assumption to think that your opponents will run Mech and won't take shadowfields, that's just the odds. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE is doing it, just the majority.

Also, it is important to make a Take All Comers (usually abbreviated TAC) list rather than a list focused on what you think you will see. My lists are built under the idea that they can face any list.

Just because you drew some foot lists doesn't mean that those were the most common type of list there or even that they were a significant percentage. Pairings always have been a big part of the game. A bad one can really screw you.

i second pretre.
i usually play against mech, but then a friend of mine had the idea of useing a foot dar list. Gave me quite a headache with the 2*10 wraithguard and conceal.
tau must mech its troops and pathfinders or they are dead, but 2-3 dtcs are the usuall i see in 1.5k. DE full papermech, eldar half/full mech usually.

this is the 50%+, the average, the usuall, the most you will see.

on the HF: true, but still to close for the lot of my taste, i only take the one flamer for the 10domi as a "in case of emergency, fry heretic" button.
on the rets: puting a squad in a rhino isnt my idea of useage. if i was to equip them w HFs, id do it in an immo w twin hf, disembark in cover of the vehicle and BUUUUUUUUUUURN!!! the chaos gods out of the unite under my flame whip. But i will still use HB Rets until i come to my senses

Keep in mind that HF's can Pen vehicles with rending as well.

Yeah, I took down a vandetta with the HF.

Also, as for the math on Seras, they get rerolls to wound which is why their wound number is so high

andrewm9 wrote:

pretre wrote:So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

I agree. Yuck! I have my Seraphim behind a couple of Rhinos for moving cover at least for the first turn and then they jump where they need to hose'em down with fire and bolts. Its been fairly effectice. Not the killiest unit to be sure but I use it for its mobility and nifty faith ability.

I didn't realize this thread was still going! We've been talking Seraphim over in one of the Battle Report threads.

I don't deep strike them as a rule, but I love that they can do it. It's going to take the Seras a couple of turns to get close to the enemy anyway so it's not like you're losing crucial turns where they could be in the fight. What you're actually losing is precision, since when you deep strike you need a spot on the table that's open enough to keep you from mishaps.

So pretty much if I think it's more likely that they'd die trying to get across the table I'll hold them in reserve. It also helps to not have them on the table as the only non-mech target although that's a pretty minor concern.

yeah, takeing down a vendetta, vhats its cost again?? And its armor? And the chance of rending on it w 4 HF? C'mon, the meltas are there for that, and the heavy bolter does it for less pt and longer range. And the HB have more chance to rend vs vehicles - flamer is one shot, HB is 3, so 4 vs 12, x4 for rending from 36(!!!)" vs x1 from template range.
As for the math on the Seras, i took in to consideration the 2/6*1.5 mod for wounds. Or if it is to high, i can recalc it w 0.75, your call.
ime, not worth it. Flamer s4ap5 5 pt, hand s3ap6 10*2 pt. No thanks.

on the DS: yes, its just slightly harder, but they dont die that easy - shoot my reserve, i dare you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Celtic:
yeah, i took out a wraithguard w a BSS deployed from rhino, and? Big deal, can happen.

Grats on the overall win again. That's like 2 in a row now right? Careful, you might let the great SoB secret out of the bag, and the GK players will switch to SoB!

Eh I don't know bout switching but i wouldnt mind borrowing Jacobus or Exorcists. lol

Draigo wrote:Eh I don't know bout switching but i wouldnt mind borrowing Jacobus or Exorcists. lol

Can I hold you to that? I'll give you all of my Exorcists for your Psyflemen (Venerable or otherwise).

Amerikon wrote:

Draigo wrote:Eh I don't know bout switching but i wouldnt mind borrowing Jacobus or Exorcists. lol

Can I hold you to that? I'll give you all of my Exorcists for your Psyflemen (Venerable or otherwise).

You want 6 dreadnaughts for 3 tanks? Not all 6 but I would trade ven or heavy sure.

Draigo wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

Draigo wrote:Eh I don't know bout switching but i wouldnt mind borrowing Jacobus or Exorcists. lol

Can I hold you to that? I'll give you all of my Exorcists for your Psyflemen (Venerable or otherwise).

You want 6 dreadnaughts for 3 tanks? Not all 6 but I would trade ven or heavy sure.

DEAL! We have no viable elite slots and BS 5 is amazing!

Tomb King wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

Draigo wrote:Eh I don't know bout switching but i wouldnt mind borrowing Jacobus or Exorcists. lol

Can I hold you to that? I'll give you all of my Exorcists for your Psyflemen (Venerable or otherwise).

You want 6 dreadnaughts for 3 tanks? Not all 6 but I would trade ven or heavy sure.

DEAL! We have no viable elite slots and BS 5 is amazing!

Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

I'm in to trade also, but tell it to the guys at WD to officialise it, otherwise its just a show.

obj2: i'm thinking of putting togeather multiple lists for sob, 2 for 500pt, one/two - not decided yet - for 750, one for 1k, 1.5k, 2k, 3k. This will be done aprox in an hour or so, and i would like some ideas on what to and not to do and/or bring in it.
ime, starting w small points helps to better understand the useage of the squad at hand - and gives time to experiment.
this might be an opportunity to try out the reps in action.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
actually, 3 lists for 500pt:
I. St.Cele/Jacobus + 2 BSS w meltas, combi flamers in rhino 495/470
II. Jacobus/Kyrinov + 3 BSS w flamers and CS (foot) 495
III. Canoness w PW w rets all HB + 2 BSS w flamers and CS(foot) 500 - although its the right points, i wouldnt recomend it, unless you are playing just for fun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
upgrade to 750pt:
I. 2 dominions w meltas in a rhino - meching starts/continues 250
II. 1 Domi w meltas and combi + seras w two two hand flamers power sword and plasma pistol 245 extra

Automatically Appended Next Post:
for objective control type games, upgrade to 750pt
III. For mech: remove the combi weapons, and +1 BSS w meltas in rhino and add St.Cele/Jacobus 745 pt
IV. For foot: BSS w meltas and CS, and adding a nother HQ - if it is St.Cele, it comes out to 755, in our groups overlimit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
upgrade lv 2: 1k - wuppy!
I personally like the I.+I., so adding a nother domi w meltas in rhino and adding combi weapons to the dominion superiors + a squad of retris w HB or MM OR adding a nother HQ would be the idea - I+I w extra domi and HQ 990 pt
If you've gone with the II+II, then adding a nother domi and increasing the seras to 8 is an option and adding HQ is good(total of 1k if it is St.Cele), or adding rhinos to the domis, removeing the plasma from the sera superior and adding HQ(total 1k if it is St.Cele)

Eather way, it can be molded in to cnc type lists, for at 1k, 3 scoreing unites are quite good.
But if you want more scoreing, you can add a nother BSS w meltas, CS and a retributor w HB's 980-985. Give 2 combi weapons or power swords, or 4 meltabombs to BSS superiors.
If meching, dont take retributors, just a rhino for the BSS maybe a retributor sq w 2 HB, or get 4 DCA and a Crusader, leave a BSS behind, and pack the starting Uriah bomb in to that. 1000-1005pt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as far as my "genius" goes, id stay with the I.+I. extra domi, hq choice.
could this be competative?

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

pretre wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

Psyflemen are so much better than Exorcists. Exorcists win in AP1 and that's it. Where do they lose? Random shot number, single weapon, not twin-linked, no Fortitude. AV13 Front for AV12 Side is a pretty even trade. Dreads are also a little smaller so it's easier to get cover for them. If I could take Psyflemen, my Exorcists would never see the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe this should go in the Gray Knights are OP thread?

pretre wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

Hell, I'd probably take Penitent Engines regularly if they were an Elite choice.

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

Psyflemen are so much better than Exorcists. Exorcists win in AP1 and that's it. Where do they lose? Random shot number, single weapon, not twin-linked, no Fortitude. AV13 Front for AV12 Side is a pretty even trade. Dreads are also a little smaller so it's easier to get cover for them. If I could take Psyflemen, my Exorcists would never see the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe this should go in the Gray Knights are OP thread?

Cept Exorcists are cheaper then vendread so I could fit 3 of them and 3 psyfleman so thats how they win. lol

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Hell, I'd probably take Penitent Engines regularly if they were an Elite choice.

This is true. They'd be pretty impressive if I could use them in addition to my normal 1850.

Quote fail pretre? Anyway, yeah, I could fit 3 Penitent Engines easily in my 1850 list if they were Elites instead of Heavy.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Quote fail pretre? Anyway, yeah, I could fit 3 Penitent Engines easily in my 1850 list if they were Elites instead of Heavy.

Yeah, I rule! Still spendy, but worth it, I think. Oh well, they aren't elite so blah to that.

Draigo wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

Psyflemen are so much better than Exorcists. Exorcists win in AP1 and that's it. Where do they lose? Random shot number, single weapon, not twin-linked, no Fortitude. AV13 Front for AV12 Side is a pretty even trade. Dreads are also a little smaller so it's easier to get cover for them. If I could take Psyflemen, my Exorcists would never see the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe this should go in the Gray Knights are OP thread?

Cept Exorcists are cheaper then vendread so I could fit 3 of them and 3 psyfleman so thats how they win. lol

Aren't they both the exact same price? 135pts?

Amerikon wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

Psyflemen are so much better than Exorcists. Exorcists win in AP1 and that's it. Where do they lose? Random shot number, single weapon, not twin-linked, no Fortitude. AV13 Front for AV12 Side is a pretty even trade. Dreads are also a little smaller so it's easier to get cover for them. If I could take Psyflemen, my Exorcists would never see the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe this should go in the Gray Knights are OP thread?

Cept Exorcists are cheaper then vendread so I could fit 3 of them and 3 psyfleman so thats how they win. lol

Aren't they both the exact same price? 135pts?

He said he wanted vendreads which are closer to 200 with the fixins. So I said sure I'll take exorcists as elites. 6 str8 shot platforms for 130 each.. That's a fair trade imo.

Draigo wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Um... Can I keep my Exorcists, please? I have one already which I'd like to use again should the mood strike me.

Ditto, Exorcists are awesome. If I could get fire support in Elite, I would need my emergency pants though.

Vendread in my elite? OMG. Heck, let me take retributors in elite and I would have a serious chubby.

Psyflemen are so much better than Exorcists. Exorcists win in AP1 and that's it. Where do they lose? Random shot number, single weapon, not twin-linked, no Fortitude. AV13 Front for AV12 Side is a pretty even trade. Dreads are also a little smaller so it's easier to get cover for them. If I could take Psyflemen, my Exorcists would never see the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe this should go in the Gray Knights are OP thread?

Cept Exorcists are cheaper then vendread so I could fit 3 of them and 3 psyfleman so thats how they win. lol

Aren't they both the exact same price? 135pts?

He said he wanted vendreads which are closer to 200 with the fixins. So I said sure I'll take exorcists as elites. 6 str8 shot platforms for 130 each.. That's a fair trade imo.

Assuming you roll a 6 of course.

No 3 dreads + 3 exorcists = 6 str 8 shot platforms.

Draigo wrote:He said he wanted vendreads which are closer to 200 with the fixins. So I said sure I'll take exorcists as elites. 6 str8 shot platforms for 130 each.. That's a fair trade imo.

My bad. I thought we were talking about the Heavy Support dreads. I'd still totally trade my Exorcists for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

enfernux wrote:500pt:
I. St.Cele/Jacobus + 2 BSS w meltas, combi flamers in rhino 495/470
II. Jacobus/Kyrinov + 3 BSS w flamers and CS (foot) 495
III. Canoness w PW w rets all HB + 2 BSS w flamers and CS(foot) 500 - although its the right points, i wouldnt recomend it, unless you are playing just for fun.

I think your best bet at 500 would be list 1 with St Celestine, but trade out the Rhinos for a HB Retributor squad. I think if you went melta/flamer/combi-melta on your BSS squads you'd have 85 pts after dropping the Rhinos. Then when you move to higher point levels you can buy rides for your BSSs.

For the Sera squads, if you're spending 25 pts on loot for your VSS, you'd be better off with an Eviscerator instead of the Power Sword/Plasma Pistol pair.

@Amerikon: could be done, but im counting on the enemy bringing mechs, like Eldar, DE, and for that reason, rhinos are a bit more safe spot for my troops imo. But vs horde type, dropping rhinos and geting HB rets is a good idea.
Also vs hordes, id just use flamers instead of meltas.
St.Cele, 2bss w flamers, combi flamer, 1 hb ret is 490, advanced to lv1up 1 domi w flamers, combi flamer, w jacobus in rhino and one rhino for one BSS is 740.
but then we get to the problem of mech type opponents:
Jacobus w dominion w meltas, combi melta in rhino, 2 BSS w meltas, combi flamer. Option: HB rets w Kyrinov and adding a rhino to each BSS, adding one dozer to the jacobus-domi rhino, 750 OR St. Cele HB rets and a rhino for a BSS for 750 also. in the first case 1 have rerolls on faith points, a faith reroll and a fearless for the rets w a loud hailer, 1 BSS in rhino, 1 on foot, 1 domi in rhino and a ret, giveing me a babysitter troop for cnc or cover-advance behind a rhino in kp, adding a large area control fearless possible rending squad, 5 kp+3 rhinos - depends on how we consider transport.
in the second, we have a never casualty mele harasser, reroll on faiths, 1 BSS in rhino, 1 on foot and a ret in large area controll, same/almost same kill points, but I'd say less effective, than the previous, but adding melee controll.