I'm out of touch but doesn't Eldar deal with this by staying out of range and essentially always having first strike?
You're not staying out of range of 48-72" guns.
You couldn't outrange everything when flyer spam was dominant either, but they couldn't do significant damage until your Hemlocks got in H.D-scythe range.. Do Lascannons ignore hit modifiers now or something?
You couldn't outrange everything when flyer spam was dominant either, but they couldn't do significant damage until your Hemlocks got in H.D-scythe range.. Do Lascannons ignore hit modifiers now or something?
What part of "Cawl grade reroll aura" is so difficult to understand?
You couldn't outrange everything when flyer spam was dominant either, but they couldn't do significant damage until your Hemlocks got in H.D-scythe range.. Do Lascannons ignore hit modifiers now or something?
What part of "Cawl grade reroll aura" is so difficult to understand?
And they worked fundamentally differently. Accuracy maluses no longer prevent rerolls for marines boosted by a chapter master. It makes a massive difference, especially in the context of every marine unit getting additional AP and additional boosts based on individual chapter choices.
And they worked fundamentally differently. Accuracy maluses no longer prevent rerolls for marines boosted by a chapter master. It makes a massive difference.
What's BS 5+ from 48" (full rerolls make them closer to 4+) away killing 5-7 flyers?
Every unit I listed is capable of killing a flyer per turn, and it’s not remotely an exhaustive list. Marine shooting against a target without an invulnerable Save is hyper lethal right now.
Sterling191 wrote: Every unit I listed is capable of killing a flyer per turn, and it’s not remotely an exhaustive list. Marine shooting against a target without an invulnerable Save is hyper lethal right now.
Did they get + to hit vs. fly in the recent releases? Wondering how could 4 Lascannons hitting at 5+ even with rerolls kill a flyer reliably.
On the flipside, what's up with all the Aggressors?
Put simply, the minuses to hit made our fliers durable, the chapter masters rerolling makes our minuses to hit a lot less effective.
Against non marine lists the fliers are still very strong, there are a lot of marines out there now so flier spam is taking a hit.
Iron hand fliers like the stormhawk are very good against other fliers, imperial fists drown them with bolter fire etc.
To be fair it's not just eldar flier lists that are struggling with new marines though.
Sterling191 wrote: Every unit I listed is capable of killing a flyer per turn, and it’s not remotely an exhaustive list. Marine shooting against a target without an invulnerable Save is hyper lethal right now.
Did they get + to hit vs. fly in the recent releases? Wondering how could 4 Lascannons hitting at 5+ even with rerolls kill a flyer reliably.
On the flipside, what's up with all the Aggressors?
Contemptor Mortis units are BS2+. Furthermore, their Lascannons are at AP-4, they can potentially get additional accuracy bonuses, and may be packing a free wound reroll.
As I’ve been saying for the better part of a page and a half, accuracy maluses do not carry the day anymore.
I played MSU reapers last game against custodes and they had a hoot of a game. Didn't need guide/doom for them to work. They could pot shot whatever was required. Thrown in an autarch for extra bit of fire power and support for good measure and that's a very very efficient spearhead.
Problem is they are 1W t3 infantry so unless you position perfectly, have good terrain etc thye might get blown up along their wave serpent.
Wve serpent + master crafters + concealment with dual BL+CTM did good work for me me too.
Thrown in some single entity scat/BL War Walkers & vibro guns and I think tis a potent mix. Eldar storm guardian with fusion up front wasn't too shabby. I like this new rules, offers lots of redundancy.
I can see a lot of MSUBL units rolling around. Heck I might even try 10 man guardian squad with BL platform just make sure the back man doesn't move so he can shoot at full BS while the rest fan out for a screen.
For me personally I have never played flyer spam, so these new traits really make my lists of hodge poddge units come to life. Except I haven't faced centurion spam or IH... Trouble is CHE is still the most efficient I think so if that's getting deleted I don't know how MSU spam is going to cope.
Bit mad, but maybe serpents with dual BL/ML +CTM,3x +3 x falcons with CTM. Like a very mobile mech wall that doesn't need to castle or need any strat/psychic support?
I find I'm running out of heavy slots in my list building very fast now days lol.
I'm afraid I think Reapers are out, competitively speaking. There are so many SM armies at the moment, and they all have at least one thunderfire, and often more than one, as well as eliminators. Reapers are such a soft target for SM lists now. It's a shame, because I really like MSU Reapers with quickfire exarchs.
I tried out MSU Reapers using the ignores cover trait and using tempest launchers with rerollable 2D6 shots as the exarch trait.
I don't think I'm a fan of MSU units of Reapers in comparison to just guiding a big unit of them and dooming something to watch it die.
I'm still in the camp that thinks Alaitoc is still the best option as well. I realise that Marines are prevalent right now but it's not worth teching your whole craftworld trait for the marine matchup.
War Walker, 2x Scatter Laser War Walker, 2x Scatter Laser Fire Prism Fire Prism Fire Prism
I was against Orks (another race that really doesn't care about negative hit modifiers) and won despite those stupid teeth dice constantly rolling 5's and 6's. A few observations:
-Wave serpents are still tough as old boots when people are using D3D and 2D weapons for anti-tank, the 11 S6 shots provided nice dakka. I had 5 Avengers and 3 Reapers in each Serpent which worked well to give no obvious targets.
-Reapers do good work in 3 man squads with fast shot. The tempest Launcher is a great weapon, but I like having 4 crack missiles out of 3 dudes that have a reroll to hit and wound. They are fragile though, and you have to use their range and small footprint to avoid damage. Having a 2+ Sv in the open means they are not trivial to remove. The AML is a nice option when points are tight, it's better than the Reaper against vehicles.
-War Walkers. I haven't run individual Walkers before. 54pts seems like a bargain for the combination of speed, durability, and firepower they provide. I'll be using these more often for screening/objective grabbing.
-Avengers are nice now. The Exarchs 4 shots at AP-3 with rerolls seem like the best way to run them.
-Prisms are still scary when linked (although the requirement to shoot one at the end of the phase can be problematic). Master Crafters really helps them feel decent without linking too.
-Crimson Hunter Exarchs are still great even with negative hit modifiers not being as good as they were.
-MSU worked well and made me a lot less reliant on strategems and psychic powers. Stacking buffs on a big unit is still really powerful, and may be the way to go, but it can be a weakness when all your eggs are in one basket.
Your list is actually quite similar to how I run mine except I run 10 Dark Reapers as a unit instead of 3x3 and I run Rangers instead of DA. It's back one or two pages I think.
Absolutely love Wave Serpents and I think they'll be the saving grace against the marine tide coming into the meta, especially if they're untouched by CA:2019.
karandrasss wrote: Is a battalion still necessary? What do you use CP on?
A battalion is 100% necessary. Craftworlds are extremely CP hungry and if you have some CH Exarchs you're even hungrier for CP. Lightning fast reactions, webway strike, forewarned and many other stratagems are very much needed to make the army tick.
I'd go as far to say that an Autarch is necessary too in order to have some chance of pulling back more CP in a game.
If the meta shifts more toward master artisans with MSUBLs do you think War Walkers might see some use? They're more fragile than a serpent by a good bit but they're the cheapest way to bring lances.
cmspano wrote: If the meta shifts more toward master artisans with MSUBLs do you think War Walkers might see some use? They're more fragile than a serpent by a good bit but they're the cheapest way to bring lances.
I feel like there are good chances that Eldars receive many points change in the upcoming Chapter Approved. Until then i wouldnt try and reinvent the wheel.
That said, as it stands right now, i think that Master Artisans + Concealment spamming AML's is a good way to go for our ground forces. Still paired with flyers because theyre still great, even if marines can more easily deal with them.
cmspano wrote: If the meta shifts more toward master artisans with MSUBLs do you think War Walkers might see some use? They're more fragile than a serpent by a good bit but they're the cheapest way to bring lances.
I feel like there are good chances that Eldars receive many points change in the upcoming Chapter Approved. Until then i wouldnt try and reinvent the wheel.
That said, as it stands right now, i think that Master Artisans + Concealment spamming AML's is a good way to go for our ground forces. Still paired with flyers because theyre still great, even if marines can more easily deal with them.
I would 100% Run Walkers with scat lazor and BL/EML a piece if I had the models. I would maybe even in teams of two. I think 3 man squadrons would be vunerable to being focused fired. Having single targets and lots of saturation means your enemy has to make difficult choice each time it fires and either overkill or underkill.
Trouble with building for all these MSU types is you end up running into structure problems... 3 walkers in a single squadon costs the same points as 3 walkers taken in MSU but take up 3 heavy slots..
I really like this new change, its very subtle but it makes for interesting choices. I wouldn't say its "hardcore top table competitive" whatever that means, but I think it gives a lot of lists run for its money without relying on CHE spam. I think brigade is going to be interesting. Not sure how much MSU spears benefit from those traits as opposed to alitoic.
I would like to run an alitoic outrider of spears, warp spiders and spectres to be extra ennoying!
Hope the vyper gets a slight point decrease to solve my problem
There are simply better anti-tank options for Eldar so War Walkers with bright lances will never see competitive play and won't see play when competing against their star or shuriken cannon counterparts.
Mounting heavy weapons on units like Walkers just means your opponent can eliminate anti-tank pretty easily.
@argive you bring up an interesting point, MSU suffers from the rule of 3 and taking up slots in detachments but does allow for getting the most CP out of your lists.
War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are cheap utility units that can screen, grab objectives, tie up units in CC, or outflank for line breaker. In a mech list they either get ignored or soak up anti tank fire that would be better used against other vehicles. If you put BLs or AMLs on them I think they become fragile anti-tank platforms that you want to keep still to get the most out of them.
karandrasss wrote: With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?
In a game vs Orks I used Forewarned on a Wave Serpent against 30 Da Jumping Boyz. It was only 11 S6 shots so was potentially a waste, but the Serpent survived the Boys charge with 2 wounds left so I was happy. (does Forewarned actually work against redeploying units or did I cheat??). I'd definitely use it on a CHE if the deep striking unit was heavy infantry/monster/vehicle.
CPs are always handy for LFR, Linked Fire, and Seer council strats. I would probably still use Fire and Fade on 3 Dark Reapers in some circumstances, and Matchless Agility is occasionally necessary for grabbing objectives.
I quite like vypers now, with AML and shuricannons for 70pts, using EC/MoC traits. Bit of duality, not too expensive, can put out some nice shots, can move quick to cap objectives if needed, can't be tied up in cc like walkers, and have a great 2+ save.
I'm not sure what could efficiently tie up a 54pt War Walker! But yeah Vypers look nice for performing a similar role, I'd probably go cheap with a Scatter Laser at 49pts.
I personally prefer the survivability of War Walkers. For what is the same price point you get a 5++, two heavy weapons and the option to outflank for a trade off of 4" of movement.
And <fly>, and a drop from 3+(2+ at range) to 4+(3+ at range), and fills fast attack not the over-competitive heavy slot. They're niche, and walkers are better overall, but if we're talking MSU lists, especially brigades, they deserve consideration.
I would much rather a T6 body over a T5 body with the prevalence of Str 6 weapons but you have fair points, especially if you can fit a Brigade into an Eldar list.
I think both options would perform well in the same role.
War Walker wins out slightly in durability due to +1 Toughness and 5++ being a little better than +1 Sv.
War Walkers also have a little more firepower.
Vypers are faster, and more maneuverable thanks to having Fly. The War Walkers outflank option is a nice addition though.
Vypers Biker and Fly keywords also allow it to receive more buffs, although that's probably not relevant for such an expendable unit.
So War Walkers are going to be better at camping objectives/being a screen whilst laying out fire. Vypers will be better at jumping out for distant objectives, and tying up units in assault. I favor the walkers, but if I needed an extra 5pts I wouldn't hesitate to drop a twin Scatter Walker for a single Scatter Vyper.
I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.
I wanted to join the discussion on here, as the recent PA changes have been jolly interesting. Like many, I saw the new Exarch powers as something tending towards MSU, especially as it would give lots of fun rules to play with. (The Goonhammer article especially noted this.) I played a friendly game on the weekend, where I used Janice the Wraithknight along with some MSU Aspect Warriors to test this theory out.
My list, roughly, was: Farseer (Guide, Fortune), Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Executioner), Warlock Skyrunner (Ghostwalk, Protect/Jinx), Wave Serpent, 2x six Swooping Hawks, 2x three Dark Reapers, nine Dire Avengers, Guardian Blob, Rangers, six Windriders with Scatter Lasers, Janice the Wraithknight with her amazing Suncannon and Shield.
I was curious to test out the MSU exarch powers, and also wanted to try the Windrunners with Scatters. The Wraithknight is a fun model, so I usually leap on it in friendly games, but it’s not really relevant to this discussion.
My opponent’s list was a Black Legion friendly special. 3 Oblits, a Vindicator, 5 Havocs with autocannons, two sorcerers with various things, 6 terminators with combi plasma and melta, a Decimator, a chainlord, 2x CSM squad and a 20 man Cultist squad. I won fairly handily, ramming the Wraithknight forward and soaking all his firepower with it (Protect and Fortune, hooray), while my opponent was quite unlucky and failed to eliminate either the two Reaper squads despite allocating both the Oblits and the Chainlord to them or the Wraithknight with the termie deep strike.
The exarch powers I tested were:
- Dire Avengers – Bladestorm – worked fine. Added two hits when the unit shot, which isn’t anything to sniff at, and makes a unit that is already not bad at Overwatch actually quite decent at it. I didn’t get a chance to test them with Guide or any re-rolls. Have no qualms, would use again when the Boys in Blue hit the table.
- Dark Reapers – tempest launcher with rain of death. Worked fine. I only needed to reroll the dice once, and kinda wished that I had the reroll ones instead the rest of the time. However the reliability is hard to ignore. I’d definitely consider the 1CP for both powers on this guy.
- Dark Reapers – reaper launcher with quick shot. Getting four missiles from a three man unit was obviously great, and I had no issues with them. I toyed with the AML, but didn’t quite jump that way this time. I would honestly use either power and weapon combo even in a large squad, as it is effectively making your 34pt Exarch do twice the work of anyone else, and that’s always great.
- Swooping Hawks – rapid shot. Six shots with S5 was fun, and seemed to make these small units punch just a bit harder. I was testing these units out, found them fun and just generically useful as they spread out to limit Obliterator placement. At 86pts, I didn’t mind if they lived or died, but I would struggle to say that this particular exarch power made much difference either way. I can see the argument for Suppressing Shot, and intend to test that soon as well.
I also tested out the custom craftworld powers, putting Eldrad back on the shelf to test out Expert Crafters (aka Salamanders) and Stealthy. They were both good, but I have to admit that Expert Crafters did add quite a lot of time as you are just constantly re-rolling stuff. The Wraithknight benefits from Stealthy, amusingly, so it helped keep him safe T1; it also meant that my opponent’s random long range shooting just didn’t do as much as normal, and I lost barely anything to his bolter fire for example. Swooping Hawks and Bikes both benefitted from 3+ saves, for example. Overall I don’t know if it helped more than Alaitoc would have, but then Alaitoc doesn’t let me reroll Starcannon or Reaper Launcher wound rolls, so I feel that I prefer this combo as a balanced option.
Ghostwalk never came up, the Wraithknight moved really fast anyway. Definitely worth considering for a Wraithblades unit in a Wave Serpent though.
I wanted to join the discussion on here, as the recent PA changes have been jolly interesting. Like many, I saw the new Exarch powers as something tending towards MSU, especially as it would give lots of fun rules to play with. (The Goonhammer article especially noted this.) I played a friendly game on the weekend, where I used Janice the Wraithknight along with some MSU Aspect Warriors to test this theory out.
My list, roughly, was: Farseer (Guide, Fortune), Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Executioner), Warlock Skyrunner (Ghostwalk, Protect/Jinx), Wave Serpent, 2x six Swooping Hawks, 2x three Dark Reapers, nine Dire Avengers, Guardian Blob, Rangers, six Windriders with Scatter Lasers, Janice the Wraithknight with her amazing Suncannon and Shield.
I was curious to test out the MSU exarch powers, and also wanted to try the Windrunners with Scatters. The Wraithknight is a fun model, so I usually leap on it in friendly games, but it’s not really relevant to this discussion.
My opponent’s list was a Black Legion friendly special. 3 Oblits, a Vindicator, 5 Havocs with autocannons, two sorcerers with various things, 6 terminators with combi plasma and melta, a Decimator, a chainlord, 2x CSM squad and a 20 man Cultist squad. I won fairly handily, ramming the Wraithknight forward and soaking all his firepower with it (Protect and Fortune, hooray), while my opponent was quite unlucky and failed to eliminate either the two Reaper squads despite allocating both the Oblits and the Chainlord to them or the Wraithknight with the termie deep strike.
The exarch powers I tested were:
- Dire Avengers – Bladestorm – worked fine. Added two hits when the unit shot, which isn’t anything to sniff at, and makes a unit that is already not bad at Overwatch actually quite decent at it. I didn’t get a chance to test them with Guide or any re-rolls. Have no qualms, would use again when the Boys in Blue hit the table.
- Dark Reapers – tempest launcher with rain of death. Worked fine. I only needed to reroll the dice once, and kinda wished that I had the reroll ones instead the rest of the time. However the reliability is hard to ignore. I’d definitely consider the 1CP for both powers on this guy.
- Dark Reapers – reaper launcher with quick shot. Getting four missiles from a three man unit was obviously great, and I had no issues with them. I toyed with the AML, but didn’t quite jump that way this time. I would honestly use either power and weapon combo even in a large squad, as it is effectively making your 34pt Exarch do twice the work of anyone else, and that’s always great.
- Swooping Hawks – rapid shot. Six shots with S5 was fun, and seemed to make these small units punch just a bit harder. I was testing these units out, found them fun and just generically useful as they spread out to limit Obliterator placement. At 86pts, I didn’t mind if they lived or died, but I would struggle to say that this particular exarch power made much difference either way. I can see the argument for Suppressing Shot, and intend to test that soon as well.
I also tested out the custom craftworld powers, putting Eldrad back on the shelf to test out Expert Crafters (aka Salamanders) and Stealthy. They were both good, but I have to admit that Expert Crafters did add quite a lot of time as you are just constantly re-rolling stuff. The Wraithknight benefits from Stealthy, amusingly, so it helped keep him safe T1; it also meant that my opponent’s random long range shooting just didn’t do as much as normal, and I lost barely anything to his bolter fire for example. Swooping Hawks and Bikes both benefitted from 3+ saves, for example. Overall I don’t know if it helped more than Alaitoc would have, but then Alaitoc doesn’t let me reroll Starcannon or Reaper Launcher wound rolls, so I feel that I prefer this combo as a balanced option.
Ghostwalk never came up, the Wraithknight moved really fast anyway. Definitely worth considering for a Wraithblades unit in a Wave Serpent though.
With the reapers going for spearhead with 3x3 reapers and an autarch solves your re-roll ones problem as well as artisans re-rolls for those Dmg 3 missiles. I really rate the 3x3 reaper and autarch pocket. Put them in some awkward LOS blocking terrain and limited firing lines in the backfield and they will dot he work. As long as you saturate and have immediate threats they seem like a waste for long range AT firepower..
@ Tyranid horde & others the point I was trying to make with the walkers is you do not have to give them 2 Bls or two EMLs.. You can do one scat one BML. So you use your re-rolls on the Heavy single-shot weapon for hvt and hose chaff/infantry with scat lazor not caring about the re-rolls (unless you have already sucesfully wounded the HVT withut needing a re-roll...) More duality, more saturation. If one gets melted thats only a 13 pts extra loss as opposed to dual scats.
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Cpt. Icanus wrote: I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.
Damn, of course you are right! I don't know how I forgot that, given that I knew not to expect Webway Gate or Lightning Fast Reflexes to work on her. Another nail in the coffin. It didn't matter in this game as I didn't pass enough Protect saves to have kept it alive, but I'll need to apologise to my opponent regardless.
Sidenote: I honestly hate how boring the Wraithknight is in comparison to the Imperial Knights. I wish we had relics to give them, and could make them characters and suchlike. At the moment it really is just a big dreadnought.
Argive wrote: With the reapers going for spearhead with 3x3 reapers and an autarch solves your re-roll ones problem as well as artisans re-rolls for those Dmg 3 missiles. I really rate the 3x3 reaper and autarch pocket. Put them in some awkward LOS blocking terrain and limited firing lines in the backfield and they will dot he work. As long as you saturate and have immediate threats they seem like a waste for long range AT firepower..
My main issue with that is that I only own two boxes of Dark Reapers, and thus only two exarchs! I'm not really desperate to rush out and buy another box of finecast if I can avoid it. However, I do see your point; such a detachment (maybe with a War Walker instead of the third Dark Reaper squad) is cheap and easy to add.
The Autarch is something that I normally take; I only own the plastic swoopyswoop version, who I like the look of, and he tends to be a reasonable but not very exciting addition to my forces. He babysits stuff in the back, positioning in light of my intended Guide target, and if required he'll rush forward as a suicidal power sword and Phoenix Gem wielder. One time he damaged a Rhino with his Fusion Pistol. I didn't take him this game because I was trying out Protect on the Wraithknight, and thus needed dual-Farseer, but I'll probably swap back in due course.
Allowing Runes of Battle powers to affect Wraithknights would make them much more competitive: double moving with a 2+, 4++ Sv, -1 to hit, and +1 to hit and wound! Possibly a bit much.
My main issue with them is the lack of mobility and firepower. Give it 14 inch move and fly so that it's actually more agile than Imp Knights. It also needs to shoot like a 400pt unit, the Suncannon + 2x Star Cannon version kills about 4 space marines.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Allowing Runes of Battle powers to affect Wraithknights would make them much more competitive: double moving with a 2+, 4++ Sv, -1 to hit, and +1 to hit and wound! Possibly a bit much.
My main issue with them is the lack of mobility and firepower. Give it 14 inch move and fly so that it's actually more agile than Imp Knights. It also needs to shoot like a 400pt unit, the Suncannon + 2x Star Cannon version kills about 4 space marines.
give the spiritseer a rule that lets his runes of battle affect any wraith host unit, not just infantry. That way you get more reasons to run one.
But yes, when comparing it to IKs its just a completely different ballpark. The fact that it has neither a higher thoughness nor higher movement speed is just stupid. (Wraith constructs are usually 1T above the imperium equivalent, either buff would help it).
also, the agile race having a knight that is almost impossible to charge with on turn 1 since it cant advance + charge, while the imperium has the option to do it with a more dangerous close quarter combar knight that deals more damage AND costs less is insulting.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.
Would you consider runing Asurmen or still nah ?
Totally would, unless i actually wanted to win He's too expensive to buff cheap chaff we only take to generate xp.
karandrasss wrote: With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?
I use warwalkers for this purpose. No one really wants to take 6 starcannon on the drop. Fire and fade not so much. Command rerolls (quicken/protect) and lightning fast burn through the CP really fast though.
karandrasss wrote: With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?
I use warwalkers for this purpose. No one really wants to take 6 starcannon on the drop. Fire and fade not so much. Command rerolls (quicken/protect) and lightning fast burn through the CP really fast though.
warwalkers cant benefit from runes of battle not lightning fast reactions....
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.
Would you consider runing Asurmen or still nah ?
Totally would, unless i actually wanted to win He's too expensive to buff cheap chaff we only take to generate xp.
You gotta go all in on it. Saw it in a game against orks and it was pretty impressive. 30 DA in serpents and Asman on the front line with the +1 to hit and wound ability. Very impressive if it gets going. 5+ on wounds are AP-3 with that setup.
karandrasss wrote: With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?
I use warwalkers for this purpose. No one really wants to take 6 starcannon on the drop. Fire and fade not so much. Command rerolls (quicken/protect) and lightning fast burn through the CP really fast though.
warwalkers cant benefit from runes of battle not lightning fast reactions....
Yeah I wasn't saying they did. I use them for forewarned. Protect and quicken are going on the usual targets - spears and gardian blobs.
How viable is a 2000pts list of mainly grav tanks competitively?
The bulk of the force I am thinking of would be 6 or so Night Spinners with at least 2 Starcannon Wave Serpents to be a forward threat, holding some infantry, using the Serpent shield to tank 2+ damage weapons.
The reason for no Fire Prisms is they are kinda pricy and I think the ability of Night Spinners to hit what they can't see makes them that much better.
At the moment I'm undecided on Craftworld traits but will probably go with ignore cover at least. Open to suggestions?
Well 3 night spinners is your max. I run starcannon serpents quite a lot, they can be good. Ignore cover for sure if you're going spinners, and I'd take reroll 1 hit and wound automatically, it's the best trait in PA.
Serpents are still a solid choice, and expert crafters make them more strat-independent.
It is a suggested limit in organized events. The rule of three came about in an FAQ suggesting one should be limited to taking a max of three. You mentioned competitively in your previous post which may have led the other poster`s response indicating your idea breaks the rule of three. If you are referencing playing outside of organized events, discuss with your opponent what parameters to use when building the armies.
Personally, I have yet to see any tourney or organized event not utilize the rule of three. As such, local games tended to adopt that as a standard for ease of army design when playing against others.
Since Falcons are dirt cheap to buy (already have two), what is the viability of 3 falcons carrying 6 Dire Avengers each to take up your core troop slots in a Batt. Falcons will have starcannons for 125pts ea.
Goal is to have a high number of grav vehicles (as mentioned a few posts up). A couple of prisms, fliers, spinners and maybe a serpent or two.
Yes when making lists I have been trying to maximise number of grav tanks taken otherwise the list doesn't really work
Are falcons really that good? Compared to Wave Serpents they seem to not be as good
I have had it pointed out to me that Guard do the whole vehicle spam better than Craftworlds can. As I can't match on toughness and damage output what can we do better than guard in this kind of list, apart from psychic powers what can we do differently or better? Maneuverability? The deep strike strat for vehicles?
I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.
The subtle part of the army is the amount of Mortal Wounds that can be dealt in the Psychic phase.
I was using ITC standard missions and the list can earn quite a lot of points in turns 1 and 2. Games were called after turns 3 and four as the list was very much intact.
The big challenge, as with many others, is learning all the new Marine variants cropping up.
Battalion
115 Yvraine
115 Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner, Smite
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
125 Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser, SS, CTM
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
bullyboy wrote: Since Falcons are dirt cheap to buy (already have two), what is the viability of 3 falcons carrying 6 Dire Avengers each to take up your core troop slots in a Batt. Falcons will have starcannons for 125pts ea.
Goal is to have a high number of grav vehicles (as mentioned a few posts up). A couple of prisms, fliers, spinners and maybe a serpent or two.
I have two already and I am looking at picking some up but as it stands, they aren't worth it.
You're much better off paying the extra points for a Wave Serpent as they have an extra wound and are far more survivable with their serpent shield. Leave the heavy weapons to the dedicated anti-tank and go barebones/vectored engines.
Falcons are unfortunately in a weird place where moving means they lose their 3+ to hit and you need to buy CTM to make them at least a little bit viable.
Some of my older ITC lists have run 3 Wave Serpents, 3 Fire Prisms, and 1 CHE as the core but obviously if you wanted to optimise the list further you go for 3 CHE and maybe cut down on the Wave Serpents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarigar wrote: I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.
The subtle part of the army is the amount of Mortal Wounds that can be dealt in the Psychic phase.
I was using ITC standard missions and the list can earn quite a lot of points in turns 1 and 2. Games were called after turns 3 and four as the list was very much intact.
The big challenge, as with many others, is learning all the new Marine variants cropping up.
Battalion
115 Yvraine
115 Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner, Smite
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
125 Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser, SS, CTM
169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
Sarigar wrote: I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
As I just finished painting my first three Dire Avengers, I feel compelled to ask: how specifically did you find the boys in blue? You seem to have used them as cheaper and more versatile Guardian replacements for your mechanized element, would you recommend them?
Sarigar wrote: I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire
As I just finished painting my first three Dire Avengers, I feel compelled to ask: how specifically did you find the boys in blue? You seem to have used them as cheaper and more versatile Guardian replacements for your mechanized element, would you recommend them?
Like most troop choices, they're more or less a screen for your more important stuff. Their new Exarch powers mean they can now compete against Rangers and at that point you have to consider whether you prefer 5 sniper shots at 36" range versus 10 (or 12) shuriken shots at 18" range. Don't expect Avengers to survive if they get shot at.
The DA job was mop up and sitting on an objective. The Exarch with Shredding Fire is decent combined with Expert Crafters.
I debate between swapping out one unit to take a squad of Rangers. Their job is to sit on a backfield objective. I don't really like to expose them to shooting. If someone fires weapon that does not require LOS, then the Rangfer stratagem works well to protect them.
It may be due to not having a many Craftworld players, but after two opponents, the mortal wound output seems to be unexpected. The Farseer and Yvraine nnoth have two powers that deal Mortal Wounds, the Hemlocks and even Wave Serpents.
Sarigar wrote: I got in a couple games in, integrating the PA rules into my mechanized list. While fliers are still good, the Craftworld traits add in significant offense. I got Jinx off one time in two games and found absolutely zero need to have Guide and/or an Autarch for the reroll of 1 aura.
Spoiler:
The subtle part of the army is the amount of Mortal Wounds that can be dealt in the Psychic phase.
I was using ITC standard missions and the list can earn quite a lot of points in turns 1 and 2. Games were called after turns 3 and four as the list was very much intact.
The big challenge, as with many others, is learning all the new Marine variants cropping up. Battalion 115 Yvraine 115 Farseer, Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner, Smite 58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire 58 1 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire 69 1 x 6 Dire Avengers, 7 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire 125 Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser, SS, CTM 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS 169 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS
Looks like a strong list for most match ups, but you might have trouble with hordes, especially those with inv. saves. A load of chaff could eat all your Smites too. You could switch to Scatter Lasers on the Serpents to help a little with this.
How do people like to run their Serpents?
I tend to stick to Scatter Lasers, and add chin Cannons and CTMs when points allow. How important are Spirit Stones? Are the more expensive guns worth it? Do CTMs work to mitigate the -1? I feel like the more expensive guns are more likely to want to shoot something that's not the nearest target. Vectored engines?
Typically scatter lasers, chin cannon and CTM if I'm going cheap and cheerful but I also like shuriken cannons for the occasional -3 AP.
I never bother with spirit stones or any upgrades other than CTM. Serpents are already durable without stones and they don't need any more points invested in them. I tend to like my shooting so using vectored engines is normally reserved to last turn dashes or early game pushes. Both of which have their merits but if you're taking VE then maybe don't invest in expensive weapon options.
I don't run them with any other heavy weapons as they're already a potential bullet magnet, and I have other units for dedicated AT or MEQ killing that don't face -1 to hit for moving.
Although I don't usually take Spirit Stones, I often feel like I should. It's a 20% increase in durability for about a 7% increase in price (depending on loadout).
Shuri and star cannons with ctm. Both profiles are happy shooting at anything, so ctm is a big bonus. Chip damage and shield discharge often tip an encounter my way.
Korlandril wrote: Are falcons really that good? Compared to Wave Serpents they seem to not be as good
Wave Serpents are just a lot more durable thanks to the Serpent field and Fire Prisms are a lot shootier thanks to shooting twice with their Prism Cannon. The Falcon tries to be a compromise between a transport and gun platform and as a result is worse than either. I used them in the past but do not rate them very highly in 8th.
I tend to stick to Scatter Lasers, and add chin Cannons and CTMs when points allow.
How important are Spirit Stones?
Are the more expensive guns worth it?
Do CTMs work to mitigate the -1? I feel like the more expensive guns are more likely to want to shoot something that's not the nearest target.
Vectored engines?
I usually run triple Shuricannonto keep them cheap and mobile but I sometimes mix it up a bit. I tend to skimp on Stones, CTMs and VEs as I prefer to just invest in more bodies. I always forget the 6+++ from stones in the heat of battle anyway.
Sometimes I do take heavy weapons, it tends to depend what else is in my list. Starcannons are probably my second favourite choice for turret since they are quite cheap since the 2018 Chapter Approved and 4 shots means you can usually rely on some hits, even on the move. Plus with Primaris becoming more popular, Starcannons are pretty efficient at taking them down and can put a few wounds on vehicles too with a bit of luck.
I feel like the Falcon is the MBT with some transport cap, and the Serpent is the MBT that's also a transport.
The Falcon, in theory, has much better firepower. It has a heavy weapon *and* a specialized heavy that, on paper, outperforms other heavies! The Serpent only has a single TL heavy.
However, when TL became "Basically two weapons", the Serpent's TL heavy really closed in on the Falcon's firepower. The Falcon will slightly outshoot a double-BL Serpent, but not by as much as you'd think. The Pulse Laser is usually better than a single other heavy, but not by much. So the Falcon only has slightly better firepower.
But the Serpent still has its 5-star crash rating, greatly outperforming the Falcon for durability. So the Falcon is just the worse tank overall.
The points are closer, so it's not as much a slam-dunk as it was earlier in 8th, though.
Bharring wrote: I feel like the Falcon is the MBT with some transport cap, and the Serpent is the MBT that's also a transport.
The Falcon, in theory, has much better firepower. It has a heavy weapon *and* a specialized heavy that, on paper, outperforms other heavies! The Serpent only has a single TL heavy.
However, when TL became "Basically two weapons", the Serpent's TL heavy really closed in on the Falcon's firepower. The Falcon will slightly outshoot a double-BL Serpent, but not by as much as you'd think. The Pulse Laser is usually better than a single other heavy, but not by much. So the Falcon only has slightly better firepower.
But the Serpent still has its 5-star crash rating, greatly outperforming the Falcon for durability. So the Falcon is just the worse tank overall.
The points are closer, so it's not as much a slam-dunk as it was earlier in 8th, though.
All this could be made better if the Falcon had the same rule as a Prism. Ya know, the rule that's NAMED after the Falcons primary weapon! Why Falcons don't have PULSED LASER DISCHARGE as an ability, I'll never understand
I find CTM quite important, especially for 5 points. I've never used Vectored Engines; I don't really find myself needing more than their movement characteristic. Spirit Stones do make the Seprents more durable against multi damage weapons which I find worth it. I am more and more disappointed with the Shuriken Cannon given the points and with the Expert Crafters trait: I tend to use the reroll for the turret weapon.
I'd like to run Falcons, but I find the Wave Serpent or Fire Prism to perform better to consider it.
A falcon with starcannon is 125pts, probably go 130pts for the CTM.
To go twin starcannon and CTM, the serpent is now at 151pts.
The Pulse Laser is far better than the starcannon, and you're still saving 20pts over the serpent. Granted, the Falcon doesn't compare with serpent when it comes to survivability, but it's cheapness allows it to be added in greater numbers. Of course, you're taking the pulse laser on CHEs currently, but that will probably change after CA.
That 20 points is the difference between your opponent easily popping a falcon and struggling to pop a wave serpent. For the extra 20 points there is no contest and you won't fit in extra Falcons with such a low points difference. You can only take three falcons anyway so moot point.
Take a CH or CHE if you want anti-tank or take a double shooting fire prism or three if you want a grav tank on the field.
Shield discharge is also missing from this equation; as part of a wider mortal wound approach, shields are huge news. Executioner, 2 smites and two shields is enough to drown a key unit in mortal wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I do wish Falcons were worth taking, ever.
But with the amount of damage that's coming out of SM lists at the moment with their crazy AP and IF shenanigans, Falcons are chum in the water. Whereas Serpents can be hard targets to drop in a round, considering how many SM and Tau weapons are multidamage. Getting targeted with IF heavy bolters, or autocannons, burst cannons, siege arrays, etc would mean that a Serpent's wound profile is effectively 24, compared to the Falcon's 11.
Falcons just aren't cheap enough, Serpents cost 21pts more comparing Starcannon upgrades on each. For 21pts you suffer a minor damage decrease in return for Serpent shield which defensively is insanely good and it even has a mortal wound offensive option.
For them to be viable Falcons would need to be a lot cheaper at least 25pts I think? That would make them 100pts for a Starcannon loadout and mean you can get about 3 for price of 2 Starcannon Serpents.
I think you just run the risk of making them too powerful by dropping them in points and taking them away from the MBT role that they've been in since the beginning. At that low a points cost they risk becoming a light tank which is really what they are.
As an honorary Foolproof* Falcon Pilot I have an opinion on this!
PotMS would do the job. Unlock their speed, allow them to deliver small squads to backfield without punishing them, and I think they'd be worth a look again.
*I am a terrible driver. Please do not entrust your Falcon to me.
grouchoben wrote: As an honorary Foolproof* Falcon Pilot I have an opinion on this!
PotMS would do the job. Unlock their speed, allow them to deliver small squads to backfield without punishing them, and I think they'd be worth a look again.
*I am a terrible driver. Please do not entrust your Falcon to me.
Add a squadron rule (cause HS is hella crowded) plus a small points reduction and it could work.
I would absolutely love to field a little aspect host thingy, with two or three falcons.
Somehow I thought there would be some cheap offers on the interwebz, after the BotP Box. But I can't find something that fits my needs...
Tyranid Horde wrote: BotP isn't a good place to start for an Aspect host despite Banshees and Jain Zar being present in the box.
If you're still after Falcons, they're going for £13-15 on eBay right now and it's about as cheap as they'll get.
the shipping costs are the main problem here.
searching for products from germany on ebay only gets me some used modells...
(I know, that's lamentation on a very high level - it's not that urgent to get them, as I don't play my CWE that often)
Tyranid Horde wrote: If any of you haven't seen it already, BotP is on Goblin Gaming for £98. I know it's not tactics, but this is a nice Christmas present.
Thats £5 more than what we paid for ours... Nooooooooo.... *shakes angry fist at the sky*
At £98 its not the worse deal if you are sharing with a DE player I guess. £49 each is bearable. Ebay prices currently break down at about £20 - Jain zar, £28 - Banshees, £14-15 Falcon and £12 vyper.
Back to tactics, AOK& Asurmen leading eldar foot dar horde sounds like a fun build
Hi all I made a new tactics thread with a more useful OP, considering I had to do a bit of research to find out where all are rules are located I think it was worthwhile
