So GW previewed a heap more of the upcoming rules in Twitch, Ill summarise what I saw, just typed out because I hate tryna add screenshots on this site.
Jain Zar pretty much the same besides what changes we've seen already
Banshee Exarch can buy a Triskele to replace sword, 12" Assault 3 S4 -2 D1, and just a -2 AP power weapon in CC
All Aspect Warriors have a table of new exarch powers to choose from, plus a 1 CP strat which allows them to keep their base power in addition to the new one (once per battle, i.e. only 1 squad Exarch can get 2 powers). They previewed one from each Aspect (2 for spiders):
Exarch needs to be alive for the following, no points costs shown (if any, none hinted at)
Banshees: 5+++ in the fight phase
Fire Dragons: Fusion guns can turn to Pistol 1
Dire Avengers: Add +1 to hit and wound rolls for ANY/ALL attacks, once squad has taken any casualties (wow)
Reapers: Reroll No. of shots for Exarchs Tempest Launcher
Swooping Hawks: Reduce charge distance for enemy unit by 2 when Exarch fires Overwatch at it
Striking Scorpions: Can fall back 6 inches at end of fight phase as if it were your movement phase
Spiders 1: Can remove squad from battlefield and come in via deepstrike immediately
Spiders 2: Exarch power blades gain +1 damage and Strength
Crimson Hunter Ex: +1 Damage vs FLY Targets (also pretty good)
Shining Spears: 3++ for Exarch vs Ranged
Additionally they previewed 8 more of the 22 pick n match DIY Craftworld attributes, you can pick up to 2 when making your CW:
>Melee Weapons get +1 damage on natural 6 to wound
>Units add 1 to any hit rolls once half the unit is destroyed
>During psychic tests, any 1s rolled count as 2s
>FLY units add an extra 2 inches when advancing
>6++ save for all units
>Can reroll 1 hit and wound per unit (like the old Salamander trait)
>Reroll morale checks
> -1 AP for all shuriken weapons when target is within 12 inches (but still just -3 on a 6 to wound)
So, without giving us the Space Marine style benefits to going mono faction, I feel that these new custom craftworlds really, really incentivize a hardcore level of min maxing.
For example, a battalion of just a farseer and warlock with 3x20 gaurdian blobs. Give reroll 1s for guardians and additional webway strike.* Drop in turn 2 with all 3, absolutely demolish a front line. Back it up with a full alaitoc gunline battalion behind it.
Kind of a shame, that sort of silly min maxing is not fun to see but since we dont get the additional mono faction benefits we will have to do it just to keep pace.
For example, a battalion of just a farseer and warlock with 3x20 gaurdian blobs. Give them +4" range shuriken and reroll 1s for guardians. Drop in turn 2 with all 3, absolutely demolish a front line. Back it up with a full alaitoc gunline battalion behind it.
Isn't that already possible with an Autarch? Not to mention 20 of those guardians shooting at BS2 with the Ulthwe strat. Not sure how useful +4" range when you can already deep strike into shuriken range.
For example, a battalion of just a farseer and warlock with 3x20 gaurdian blobs. Give them +4" range shuriken and reroll 1s for guardians. Drop in turn 2 with all 3, absolutely demolish a front line. Back it up with a full alaitoc gunline battalion behind it.
Isn't that already possible with an Autarch? Not to mention 20 of those guardians shooting at BS2 with the Ulthwe strat. Not sure how useful +4" range when you can already deep strike into shuriken range.
You actually caught me right before I edited! Yea the increased range there is probably not the best, I think reroll 1s or the -1 ap within 12 is better.
I'm wondering if cat bikes buffed with the range trait, the ap trait with the vigilus formation could be competitive.
618 points gets a maxed outrider detachment with over 100 shots with ap values of between -1 to -4 I think, plus a farseer for the psychic goodness they bring. I don't think there's a screen alive that will survive that kind of firepower. Advancing, they have a 36" threat range too which should be good enough for an alpha strike.
Tabletop Tactics review is out. I'm afraid Phoenix is looking pretty tame, but lots of fun to play with. Absolutely nothing in common with the SM codex or supplements in terms of power level.
Yeah.. marines tteatement this was not. Very tame..
Im interested in the DA exarch power coupled with additional range for shuriken weapons. That could be fun.
The 6++ is realy only useful against ap -4 weaponary for allour stuff with 3+ save.
The salamander re-rolls also sounds goid but then you remember bright lances are 20pts... However, d-canon vauls wrath batteries anyone?
The 1 w regen for vehicles sounds interesting. Maybe I can finaly run some bonesingers and make a silly build lol. I havent got my codex handy, does the WL have vehicle keyword?
The 3++ SS power seems strong. A 2++ on a cheeky protect to tank hits on the exarch could be very frustrating.
Nothing really screams synergy though. Looking forward to getting hold of all the rules and find some funky builds.
Anyone find anything jump out at them for wraiths? Particularly WL?
Okayyyyy... I was keen to figure out what my exodites will be rolling with for my local league, so I noted down all the new traits. Here are the custom CW attributes in all their *ahem* glory, hope it's of some use:
+1D on 6 to wound in cc for aspect warrior.
Lost half or more models from the unit? +1 to hit.
1s become 2s on psychic tests
+2" advance for flyers (lol)
6++ save
reroll a hit and wound shooting, overwatch, or CC.
reroll morale dice
within 12" Shurikens get -1AP
+1" to charge rolls
+1A when within 3" of objective
Guardian models reroll 1s to hit
ignore cover bonus to saving throws
outside of 12" you count as in cover
if you disembark reroll 1s to hit
cc attacks when charge/d reroll 1s to hit
you can charge when you've fallen back... And when not within 3" of an enemy, you don't have to end up closer to an enemy when you consolidate. Uses up two slots. An actually interesting, inventive, but niche trait...
at the start of your turn all your vehicles regain 1 wound
add 4" to shurikens
CC attacks against Chaos when charge/d you reroll hits
5+++ vs mortal wounds
you can use the webway strat one additional time per battle per detachment you field.
+1 charge, +1 charge for Exarch, and -1 rending on their catapults for Spears - hah, Biel Tan now can rest, because why pay 2CP for Stratagem which may not even work?
And +2" from the new rune of fortune power, ghostwalk, making it a 5"+ charge! Spears are still pretty poor at their current price, but DS is definitely the way to go now eh?
Say, re-rolling hits of 1 for all GUARDIAN units + -1 AP on Shuriken makes Biel Tan and Ulthwe a bit jelly. It's not just Shuriken re-rolls, but melee re-rolls, platform re-rolls and Shadoweaver re-rolls. You can't have Autarch both at 12" near enemy and near Shadoweavers, eh? And they can deny you Jinx. Well, they can't deny dat -1 ap.
Ignoring cover + You are always in cover from 12" - for units of DR with Tempest Launchers. Take some Rangers - this ability makes you 3+ anywhere on the table after all, and their guns get to ignore cover similar to AM ability.
For DAs, cover and +4" to Shuriken etc. For Scorpions, Cover from 12" + -1 to hit against shooting while you're in Cover (Exarch ability) + charge boni.
Also while 6++ may not seem like much, Protect turns it into 5++ and that's something.
One thing is certain: if you want to make use of custom Craftworlds, you'd have to carefully manage detachments, transport keywords and all your tools. Wouldn't say half of traits are not meh, but whatever left will spice up your life.
With chapter masters making alaitoc less useful I wonder if the healing vehicles with cover might be useful for non flyer stuff like prisms etc. If you can't avoid getting hit it might be better to be more survivable instead.
The VENGEFUL FUREH one though would be good if you could kill your own Avengers somehow. Because it's 2+ to hit, +1W means 5+ rending with Doom it's 50% wounds are -3.
Also with Asurmen you might want make 1 squad -1 to Wound in melee. Gotta tank the hits somehow.
Also you can like, super focus. Take +4" range AND -1 AP within 12". So you can both defend and then rush in and attack Jinxed target for -2. Take Salamanders in separate detachment with always in Cover from 12" or something.
Taking three detachments to allow three guardian bombs with-1 ap for three cp could be pretty nice for screen clearance and board control.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cover save and 5+++ Vs mortals is a solid defensive combo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One nice thing about asurman is that he gives all aspects a 5++, combined with protect gives a big survivability boost to things like banshees, spears in melee and crazily crimson hunters!
grouchoben wrote: I think that -3 rend only works on the Exarch shuri weapons, not the whole squad, just so you know.
Can anyone confirm this either way? The TT guys seemed pretty clear that it was the whole squad in their review vid, and they generally read things pretty carefully.
That's a damn exciting buff it it's for the whole unit.
If you listen to Spider reading the power out, you can actually hear he's interpreting it wrong. Listened on Guerrilla Gaming review too, they both say 'for the Exarch's weapons'. Not 100% because I haven't seen the text.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well having spent the morning reading through everything in Phoenix, I'd say there's a few takeaways:
1) Bizarrely, CHEs were perhaps the only unit to receive a good buff. Reapers did alright too. Why GW? Why?
2) Ghost Step power adds +2" to a charge, unlocking realistic DS attacks now. That's universal, adds utility to our Warlocks in particular, and welcome.
3) Lower tier CW traits are now worse than custom CW, but Alaitoc and Ulthwe are untouched.
4) Ynnari characters got a points cut (114 over all 3 I believe), making it more feasible to run the three detachments necessary to unlock their best strat (+1A on 3 units of your choice, one from each detachment), but they also put the cost of that strat up by 1CP. Because reasons.
5) Scorpions are worth considering now, perhaps. 5+ on mandiblasters, with 7" charge, is decent for a backfield contesting DS unit.
6) Warp Spiders can now DS T1 if you care.
7) There's a chance that Warlock skyrunner conclave just became top tier - it will need an FAQ probably. The new power, witchblade, is WC4 and adds +2D to the 'psyker's weapons'. It will come down to whether the unit is considered a psyker in toto, or whether A Warlcok casts it on their own weapon. Can see it going either way. If it stands, the Conclave can delete things in a major way.
8) Overall the supplement feels very nickle and dime. A million miles away from SM supplements. Won't really change how CWE are played I should think. Fun for narrative, weak for competitive.
grouchoben wrote: If you listen to Spider reading the power out, you can actually hear he's interpreting it wrong. Listened on Guerrilla Gaming review too, they both say 'for the Exarch's weapons'. Not 100% because I haven't seen the
Oh.... well... that sucks. So misfires all around.
Looks like xx years of SM envy on the horizon... fantastic..
Id be happy with melee only to be honest. A buffed bike conclave with witchblades up could delete a knight in one turn, and retreat beforw the attack-back if it fails...
It's already good if you have los blocks, but with +2 damage if it works, with Windrider Detachment just dirty, quite similar to ynnari bikes before nerf. And hey, +1 charge/+2 charge etc.
I am also thinking of dusting off my all-bike. To run something like 6 small squads of Windriders with Shuriken cannons, +4" range, Cover from 12", Windrider detach for -1 AP when time is right.
What's the verdict on the new Banshee Exarch Powers, considering the Banshees are arguably the poster child of this Phoenix Rising release?
To sum up:
1. 5+++ for unit in Fight phase
2. Executioner armed only, Exarch can choose to have -1A in return for +3S and D3
3. -2 A to an enemy model down to minimum of 1
4. Exarch gets +1A. If armed with Mirrorswords, bonus is +2A instead
5. Exarch melee to-hit rolls of 6 generate 1 mortal wound in addition to normal hit
6. On charge, Exarch inflicts d3 mortal wounds on a 4+
A basic -1 is pretty good, but to be frank, a unit of 5 would still die easily to somewhat competent units. However, it vastly increases your survivability against units with WS4 and even more against WS5.
A 5+++ for 10 girls and -1 to hit and LFR is a lot more tarpitty if you can manage to get it into blob of enemy units. But counters to easy by fallback > shoot routine unless you're taking hostage. (Custom craftworld which allows to consolidate 3" ; into any direction perhaps?)
Personally I am afraid to run big squad of Banshees. Fragile, expensive, dies if WS explodes.
Damage 3 Executioner is excellent if you often charge stuff like Onagers or other vehicles that can't fall back. You can not only tie them up but wound them.
-2 to A is obviously good at saving your characters, but is really situational - exarch has to be within 1". Against mobile characters just not possible unless you fight first with Jain. But you better use Banshees and Jain independently from each other on multiple directions to tie up as many shooters as possible. But hey, Knight hitting just 6 attacks on 4+? Not bad.
Mirrorswords is a filler, so is unmodifided mortals on hit.
Finally, d3 mortals on charge is hilarious since even 1 Exarch left of a squad can suddenly lolrush some expensive unit in invul and do damage way above usual Banshee pay. It is the one I like for MSU of 2-3 five girl units the most.
I agree, MWs is gravy, and probably worth a cp reroll in a lot of matchups. But Banshees have remained essentially the same: hyper glassy, weak punch, but no overwatch and hella fast.
If you need that in your list then great. Otherwise, well, those new models will be gathering dust.
I'm personally interested in Scorpions - reliable charge out of DS and far more reliable MWs make them a really interesting choice to just drop in for the last 64pts of your list. Cheap, cheerful, need no extra investment, and can *conceivably* swing a game your way by nailing a backfield camper. The definition of a turn 3 unit.
I hope decapatating strile was a typo and was supposed to effect the whole squad. Mw on unmod 6 on 2 attack t3 model sqaud is not OP in any way shape or form compared to sm gak.
Argive wrote: I hope decapatating strile was a typo and was supposed to effect the whole squad. Mw on unmod 6 on 2 attack t3 model sqaud is not OP in any way shape or form compared to sm gak.
That is when the power is discussed and you can actually read from the page directly. It's a bit too long and explicit to be a typo. Only the Exarch is doing any decapitating.
As for the Graceful Avoidance power, I'm just a little bit puzzled why they went for a 5+++ Fight phase only considering that on the same page, Hawks get 5++ for the whole unit. In both cases it supposedly represents evasion, so why differ in giving one a ++ and another a +++?
So what does it say that sugest warp spiders get t1 ds?
Afaik unless it specificaly states it ignores the tactical.restraint rule all it is is a reposition within 9 (or 12 if marines because marines are awesome) rather than 4 d6 move.
Argive wrote: So what does it say that sugest warp spiders get t1 ds?
Afaik unless it specificaly states it ignores the tactical.restraint rule all it is is a reposition within 9 (or 12 if marines because marines are awesome) rather than 4 d6 move.
It seems to be identical to their Warp Strike ability now, except there is no risk of losing a model.
Argive wrote: So what does it say that sugest warp spiders get t1 ds?
Afaik unless it specificaly states it ignores the tactical.restraint rule all it is is a reposition within 9 (or 12 if marines because marines are awesome) rather than 4 d6 move.
Well whim of deceit (from the source i saw) seems like a reposition that works only once just like Da Jump, so only takes effect if unit is already on battlefield should be exemp from tactical restrain rule.
Argive wrote: Because heaven forbid xenos get anything good(i mean betterthan SM) with new models.
can you get 5++ in any other source? Since 5++ and 5+++ combo rather nicely.
Asurmen's aura gives 5++. However, that is even more points investment. Also it would be nice if a unit could be useful without having to use a named character.
Argive wrote: So what does it say that sugest warp spiders get t1 ds?
Afaik unless it specificaly states it ignores the tactical.restraint rule all it is is a reposition within 9 (or 12 if marines because marines are awesome) rather than 4 d6 move.
It seems to be identical to their Warp Strike ability now, except there is no risk of losing a model.
I think its weaker becuse you have to land ouside of 9" of enemies so cant steal objectives reliabily and force shots at -2 base targets(if altoic) But i suppose it has some uses f you realy need distance. If you running 10 man blob the morale dice would probably be better.
Argive wrote: Because heaven forbid xenos get anything good(i mean betterthan SM) with new models.
can you get 5++ in any other source? Since 5++ and 5+++ combo rather nicely.
What exactly are you implying?? That these traits and powers for banshees are strong cmpairing to sm? Lol...
The banshees are still suffering from same problem of not nough damage or survivability. Sightly more relible charge with the trait and psychic. But are you realy going to build your whole army trait/expensive named characters around squad of banshees ?or cqc units in general...Really? Seems lile investing all that resource into making a poor unit perform is pretty gak when extra buffs are handed out like candy to power armour or free.
I suppose if one took the Craftworld attributes of Savage Blades (re-roll to-hit on charge or if charge) and Children of Morai-Heg (+1 to-hit if half of unit destroyed), then you could get effectively hitting on 2+ with re-roll 1's but that's only after you lose half the unit.
Again though that requires an inordinate amount of effort, basically dedicating the custom Craftworld attributes to this. If one has to put in extra effort to get equivalent performance, that is the same as saying the thing was underpowered in the first place.
No need to be all doom and gloom folks, Alaitoc is still apparently untouched and therefore the strength of the CW codex has not diminished at all.
Honestly if you were expecting to be able to buy some flash new plastic Banshees to bring to your next hyper competitive GT and dominate the top tables, you're expecting too much - this is GW after all.
I for one am super excited to take my Aspect warriors into battle again and explore all the new utility and options they have, even if not IH tier. If that doesn't cut the mustard for you, then just keep bringing all the units that make CW one of the strongest armies currently, nothing actually got worse...
What exactly are you implying?? That these traits and powers for banshees are strong cmpairing to sm? Lol...
The banshees are still suffering from same problem of not nough damage or survivability. Sightly more relible charge with the trait and psychic. But are you realy going to build your whole army trait/expensive named characters around squad of banshees ?or cqc units in general...Really? Seems lile investing all that resource into making a poor unit perform is pretty gak when extra buffs are handed out like candy to power armour or free.
That 5+++ for one unit can be better than the 5++ for other. 5+++ is additional save. 5++ is replacement save. Would you have banshees 5++ instead of 5+++? If so then lol
My issue with the 5+++ as I said is that it seems to break from the established consistency of what are essentially "dodge" saves. The other Exarch powers like Hawk Evade and Shining Spear Skillful Rider or Crimson Hunter Evade give invulnerable saves, and Harlequins, Wyches, and Succubi invulnerable saves represent similarly their ability to dodge shots and blows.
I'm seeing some interesting potential in this release.
As far as super competitive lists go, Crimson Hunter Exarchs can now hit on 2's, so that's an upgrade. You could maybe swap Alaitoc for always in cover, and reroll one hit and wound per unit too.
For less competitive, aspect warrior heavy, lists there are at least a lot of interesting options. I'm mostly leaning towards MSU lists to take the most advantage of souped up Exarchs and the Salamanders trait (reroll one hit and wound per unit).
A unit of 3 Dark Reapers is 102 points and, with the rapid shot power, gets 4 S8 shots with rerolls. 3 units of these plus an autarch is a nice Spearhead detachment that puts out 13 incredibly accurate missiles (they're all hitting on 3's, rerolling ones, with 4 separate chances to reroll a 2) that get to reroll some wound rolls. Ignore cover would be a decent second trait for the detachment, and the whole thing can fit in a Wave Serpent.
3x Shining Spears with a Star Lance is only 104pts and, with the Blade Master ability, that Exarch has 3 attacks at S8 AP-4 flat 3 damage, rerolling a hit and wound roll. Seems pretty lethal. There's a few good options for a second trait here.
I also quite like the look of 5 man Avenger units with the Exarch taking 2 catapults at AP-3. Still taking the Salamander trait, and maybe adding 4" range or ignoring cover.
3x Shining Spears with a Star Lance is only 104pts and, with the Blade Master ability, that Exarch has 3 attacks at S8 AP-4 flat 3 damage, rerolling a hit and wound roll. Seems pretty lethal. There's a few good options for a second trait here.
Blademaster power only works with Paragon saber. So that's S3 AP-4 D3
Has there been any confirmation on whether the avenger squads have AP -3 on the whole unit or just the Exarch?
I'm looking into seeing what MSU squads can do, especially with Dark Reapers, but that strategy gives away points in ITC so maybe it isn't worth the rerolls for the tempest launcher.
I've not said much on the book but the whole thing feels pretty underwhelming and hasn't shaken anything up.
The guy literally goes through all the powers and attributes and reads them out as is, and often the rules themselves are legible in the video for additional confirmation. Shredding Fire gives only the Exarch AP -3 on his shuriken weapons.
In order to keep the original Exarch power and get a new one is to pay 1 CP. Are we able to pay the 1 CP multiple times? IE: multiple CHEs having two Exarch powers.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Mighty disappointing but not surprised, Tabletop Tactics had me hoping!
Not sure if serious. You're disappointed your infantry doesn't shoot at -3 for 11 ppm?
The ability is really good in MSU, your 1/3 shots are -3 always, with re-rolls it's great.
Sarigar wrote: In order to keep the original Exarch power and get a new one is to pay 1 CP. Are we able to pay the 1 CP multiple times? IE: multiple CHEs having two Exarch powers.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Mighty disappointing but not surprised, Tabletop Tactics had me hoping!
Not sure if serious. You're disappointed your infantry doesn't shoot at -3 for 11 ppm? The ability is really good in MSU, your 1/3 shots are -3 always, with re-rolls it's great.
Yeah I am serious, it would have made people complain about something other than Crimson Hunter Exarchs!
1/3 @AP -3 is still acceptable considering I already fill my battalions with MSU avenger squads.
Does this open the way for people taking Biel-Tan over Alaitoc?
Shadenuat wrote: Uh, you can choose them freely? The new one replaces the old one.
You end up at most with an exemplar that has the default + 1 other power from the table. So Banshee Exarch at most has War Shout + 1 other. You cannot have 2 choices from the table together.
If there were no default, or the default was just one more choice on that table, then you could have more possible combinations of powers.
What would be the best pick for DarkReaper here? I feel like they dont need the extra range, a second shot from the Exarch is nice, he does lose his reroll 1s to hit though. Might be strong with Guide where he can reroll anyway? I like the reroll number of hits for the TempestLauncher too.
What would you guys pick? And what about the CHEs? Probably +1 to hit (or rather not -1 for heavy)?
If there were no default, or the default was just one more choice on that table, then you could have more possible combinations of powers.
Ah, yes, that is correct.
Although I think wasting CP on this is not good and just having one power is good enough.
In most cases this will be the way to go, especially for the cheap Aspects. Avengers are underrated for their cost already. For all but bleeding edge competitve I think this is going to be what pushes them onto the same level of Rangers.
Data04_exe wrote: What would be the best pick for DarkReaper here? I feel like they dont need the extra range, a second shot from the Exarch is nice, he does lose his reroll 1s to hit though. Might be strong with Guide where he can reroll anyway? I like the reroll number of hits for the TempestLauncher too.
What would you guys pick? And what about the CHEs? Probably +1 to hit?
Double shot for the Reaper if you're not taking the Tempest (park a missile-tarch with him and go to town, they wont miss it), move and shoot for the CHE. The pivot 180 may be a sleeper pick though. You can do some whacky blocking with that if you run multiples and position appropriately.
Thematically if one wanted, one could make a anime-style master shuriken gunslinger. Use a dual Avenger catapult Exarch and pick Shredding Fire, and Craftworld attributes of Hail of Doom and Superior Shuriken (or Expert Crafters)
4 shots up to range 22" S4 AP-3 D1. At 12" or less it becomes AP-4. Or instead of the boosted range, re-roll 1 to-hit and 1 to wound roll for the unit each time it fires.
What exactly are you implying?? That these traits and powers for banshees are strong cmpairing to sm? Lol...
The banshees are still suffering from same problem of not nough damage or survivability. Sightly more relible charge with the trait and psychic. But are you realy going to build your whole army trait/expensive named characters around squad of banshees ?or cqc units in general...Really? Seems lile investing all that resource into making a poor unit perform is pretty gak when extra buffs are handed out like candy to power armour or free.
That 5+++ for one unit can be better than the 5++ for other. 5+++ is additional save. 5++ is replacement save. Would you have banshees 5++ instead of 5+++? If so then lol
When your models have 1w you can take that 5+++ and 5++ (applicable in cc) and quite frankly ignore it when anything else thats dedicated cc (or not in case of intercessors) will just rof your t3 model into oblivion thats if anything survives after your opponent falls back and shoots your precious t3 1w 4+ banshees you invested an army army trait, a sttat and some psychic getting into combat. It doesnt add up..
Saying that, the salamander trait on msu walker/vyper/reaper/che lists might actualy have potential do bring the pain. The 4" range should be faction wide not just shuriken. I could do with some 12" d-scythes and 16" wraith cannons..
Shadenuat wrote: Not everything in the game is about raw damage. Banshees are a tool and require some finesse and game awareness.
You want to mindlessly roll dice, pick another faction.
By tool you mean a speed bump in the enemy line?
Sure.. They should be more than a mild inconvieniance.
A 4++ acrobatic dodge like SS wouldint hurt them and be game breaking at this point. Also, no reason why the exarch powers should be exarch only across most of the powers that are useful.
With the new strategems what’s the best shining spears tactics going to be? I’ve been out of the game a while and want to have this all down on paper for my next game.
I presume quicken. Advance. Charge. Then the new strategem to move again/fallback to cover. Rinse repeat.
Make banshee swords wound infantry on 2+ with -3 AP. Basically like a witch blade. Then they would actually be able to kill stuff. Like most Eldar elite infantry they totally get wasted from one turn of Bolter shooting and they must at least be able to inflict some death before they die
Automatically Appended Next Post: On that subject. What’s the fix for fire dragons. Why did GW ever go away from fusion / melta having a flamer mode. That was awesome.
But fire dragons suffer the same problem. They die so fast
warpedpig wrote: With the new strategems what’s the best shining spears tactics going to be? I’ve been out of the game a while and want to have this all down on paper for my next game.
I presume quicken. Advance. Charge. Then the new strategem to move again/fallback to cover. Rinse repeat.
Spears are so glassy for their points. I've been playing them an awful lot becuase, well, I really like my converted Spear models! But opponents' target priority gets pretty simple with them starting on the board. DS is the way to go now imo - take the +1" charge exarch power, and cast ghost step on them when they land. They're now charging on +3", which is a huge deal.
T3 1w infantry without at least 4++ is pointless unless it costs like 4ppm.. People were whinging about marines dying to easily well which in comparison to footdar is tanky AF.
Reapers being a slight exception as you can put them in cover for a 2+ fir the most part. All our other stuff needs to be 12" away to do something.
At least you can throw down a celestial shield for one CP on guardian blob to make things interesting. With the new flat -1 guardians will becoming even more staple.
Duno why the rules insist on making good stuff better (CHE needed a buff? Really?) and leave all the things under performing even further in the dust..
I guess whining about it wont achieve anything. Im sure there will be some playability out of the new rules.. Fingers crossed for a codex 2.0 sooner rather than later.
warpedpig wrote: With the new strategems what’s the best shining spears tactics going to be? I’ve been out of the game a while and want to have this all down on paper for my next game.
I presume quicken. Advance. Charge. Then the new strategem to move again/fallback to cover. Rinse repeat.
Spears are so glassy for their points. I've been playing them an awful lot becuase, well, I really like my converted Spear models! But opponents' target priority gets pretty simple with them starting on the board. DS is the way to go now imo - take the +1" charge exarch power, and cast ghost step on them when they land. They're now charging on +3", which is a huge deal.
Definitely thinking of going this way with them. I have a unit of five in the works and I can't wait to get them on the board! It does take setup though but at least the warp charge is low for ghostwalk.
I wish fire dragons got more from this book, they're languishing a bit but I guess the pistol meltas does help a fair bit, not enough though.
A craftworld open topped slimmer would be nice. Something fire dragons and other Eldar infantry could cruise to battle in for rapid engagement and survivability
warpedpig wrote: A craftworld open topped slimmer would be nice. Something fire dragons and other Eldar infantry could cruise to battle in for rapid engagement and survivability
a CWE version of the Venom/Starweaver would be a splendid thing indeed, or give the Falcon Assault Vechile (but i guess the bestest rules is nu-marines only...)
God I'd love that. Would change CWE so much, and help mitigate how flakey our troops are.
I've been running 24 Storm Guardians for a while now, with morale-immunity WLT, and they are the only infantry we have that can stand in the open imo. Dropping 4++ on 24 troops for 1cp is minty. Currently weighing up converting 24 more for a DS once the first blob perishes. I know, it's ridiculous, but hey, 48 cc attacks and 24 shuriken shots on morale-immune troops at 6ppm is alright in my book.
grouchoben wrote: God I'd love that. Would change CWE so much, and help mitigate how flakey our troops are.
I've been running 24 Storm Guardians for a while now, with morale-immunity WLT, and they are the only infantry we have that can stand in the open imo. Dropping 4++ on 24 troops for 1cp is minty. Currently weighing up converting 24 more for a DS once the first blob perishes. I know, it's ridiculous, but hey, 48 cc attacks and 24 shuriken shots on morale-immune troops at 6ppm is alright in my book.
Do you ever buff them with empower? It would make them much more meaty if you charged them into combat.
I would like an open topped skimmer but that encroaches on DE territory and if they made the Falcon an assault vehicle I don't think it would see much play still as 6 model capacity is only really good for Fire Dragons and they need a buff to help make that combo viable.
I prefer enhance, combined with disdain, for extra hits on 5+. Really they want the Avatar, so they can run fearless through him, and that unlocks space for ambush of blades, which combos really well with enhance and disdain (-1AP on 6+ to hit).
Automatically Appended Next Post: (They suck against 2+ but against everything else they force through some damage by weight of numbers and their many pistol attacks. But really, they're about holding ground, denying space, seizing objectives, all that good stuff.)
I still find it puzzling that Craftworld Eldar dont have strategems that allow charging after advancing (with the exception of Samhain Bikers).
I plan i trying out Guardians with the -1AP Shuriken Trait and combining it with a Jinx, Doom and Guide. Reckon that should take down just about anything.
It’s a shame shurikens suck so bad you have to use three psychic powers just to make them decent. They used to be 24” and -2 AP. They used to be fitting for a highly technologically advanced race. Now they suck
warpedpig wrote: It’s a shame shurikens suck so bad you have to use three psychic powers just to make them decent. They used to be 24” and -2 AP. They used to be fitting for a highly technologically advanced race. Now they suck
I'm not going to argue about this point with you, I've read enough about this in your proposed rules thread. Shuriken weapons are in a good place right now with the option to buff them using psychic powers and use custom craftworld traits if you want to focus on them.
Hi all, I've got a 100pl open play, which I don't usually play, game against an IH successor later this week.
He has 2 Leviathans, 3 dev cents (EQ?) and 10 hellblasters and 4 squads of intercessors with a couple of TH thrown in, banner, apothecary, primaris captain, 2 primaris lieutenants and a techmarine.
I'm taking an Alaitoc battallion of 10 rangers, 10 Guardians with a Shuriken Cannon in a WS with CTM and SS and twin Star cannons (like all my WS), and 5 more rangers, 2 war walkers, snipertarch, warlock(conceal) and Farseer(fortune and doom) with an Iyanden Wraith Host of 2 x WG with WC, both in a WS, 1 x WB with axes and a bonesinger led by a Wraithseer with D-cannon and jinx Psytroseer.
I'm determined to make it a maelstrom game so that I have some chance to win on Objective's. I'm also intending on focusing on a doomed Levi each turn in order to hopefully clear 1 a turn. However with no real AT in my army I think i'm going to struggle to do it even with doom. Total heavy weapons include 10 star cannons, 4 shuriken cannons a d-cannon Plus 10 Wraith Cannons. My armies are really set-up to face marine's as they run my meta around here but it's the Leviathans that are really giving me issue's, especially now.
Other option's I have for AT are a CHE with 2x BL or SC and a WK with 2x HWC and 2x SC. I was considering dropping the Battalion and bringing in the WK and use the CHE as a HW but I feel as though I'll need all of the 10 CP we were given for this game.
Any hints or tips or advice would be really appreciated. Especially about open play. Although since I've been writing this out I've just realised why the hell am i bothering with detachments
Wooee, that'll be a hard game. Kill the characters if you can. Take at least 1 banshee mask biketarch, as you'll find it almost impossible to kill a lev. Kill thw plasma and the cents, tie the lev, and play the mission, would be my approach.
Skip the wraith cannons. Go a hundred percent ghost ax and shields. Much better staying power and more damage from the multiple close combat swings they will get. Invuln saves are your friend.
I can’t see guardians being very useful really. War walkers are good. The more invuln saves the better. Let them waste a lot of shooting on stuff with high toughness. Multiple wounds. And invuln. Use psychic buffs on your wraith guard like protect and fortune. And get them into hand to hand fast and you could really grind them down with ghost ax hits. They are brutal. Maybe webway strike them turn 2.
Anything that can shut down overwatch and can fly will prove invaluable against 2 IH levs I'd say. Be aware that that unit is the most durable in the game right now,.
Yeah I've dropped the guardians but kept the WW. I'll be having many buffs by the end hopefully.
I'm thinking of a farseer with fortune and doom, spiritseer with jinx/protect and a warlock with quicken/restrain. All focusing on getting the WB into assault as the basis of my psychic support.
My current thinking is:
Alaitoc:
Snipertarch(WL),
doomseer,
quicklock,
3x5 rangers,
2 WW,
CHE with 2 Star cannons,
Iyanden:
PsytroJinxseer,
5 Wraithblades with axe + shield,
WS with Twin Starcannon, Shuricannon, CTM, SS, VE,
5Wraithguard with D-cannons,
WS with Twin Starcannon, Shuricannon, CTM, SS, VE,
5Wraithguard with D-cannons,
WS with Twin Starcannon, Shuricannon, CTM, SS, VE,
That's 98PL or 1828pts.
I love my storm guardians, but they're only good for screening really. Two of the players I play most use thousand sons, being able to drop in squads to eat mortals may not be very fluffy but it's very effective!
Die! Die for your Farseer! Yeah, that's what they do for me too generally. But that's a significant tool for pure CWEimo.
I keep thinking about that new +1A if within 3" of an objective, stacked with storm of blades, enhance and disdain. That averages out at 94 attacks hitting on 2+, with 32 of them coming in at -1AP.
I know, I know, it's a fool's dream, but let a fool dream...
Totally agree. It's not really feasible to build around it, but that game when it went off and your storm guardians blendered a Redemptor would be a pleasure
Are Swooping Hawks with the 5+ Grenade ability worth building around? I can see 3 uses per turn (1 for normal movement, 1 for Quicken, 1 for Fire and Fade).
Also I enjoy the theme behind Children of Morei-heg and Dire Avengers with Avenging Strikes, even if the bonuses overlap a bit.
The grenade pack says 'during the movement' phase if I remember correctly. So both, quick and fire and fade shouldn't work as they grant additional movement in the wrong phase.
Orodhen wrote: Are Swooping Hawks with the 5+ Grenade ability worth building around? I can see 3 uses per turn (1 for normal movement, 1 for Quicken, 1 for Fire and Fade).
Dont know if its necessarily worth building around, but MSU teams are cheap as hell, and tossing one or two in for harassing MW output could do serious work in more casual environments.
That is interesting. Roughly speaking, you would get one mortal wound for every three Swooping Hawks in the squad per jump.
I have never benefited from their current Exarch ability, Herald of Victory. Utilize Advance with their move of 14" and that is a pretty decent threat range.
Yeah under ideal circumstances you'd get an average of 10 MW across the three jumps, with a full squad and full target units.
Although you pretty much kiss your squad goodbye after that, the last jump with Fire and Fade leaves you invariably pretty close to the enemy, Hawks don't survive long that close because you can't also charge stuff to tie it up.
Whats the best video/webpage people have found for detailing all of the exarch powers? I'm interested to keep digging through for combinations.
EDIT: The r/Eldar page has a topic with all of them written out.
After reading through it I'm definately keen to try out a Warlock conclave jetbike deathball. Needs a few powers to go off but has some serious punch, easily topples a Knight with Witch Blade + a few other buffs based on some fast maths.
My current favourite is the salamanders hand me down trait.
Im Going to try for a back line of msu reapers, vypers & ww armed with 1 bl and 6 or more vibro canons(maybe a couple d cannons). All of these would be single units so re-rolling all those hits and wounds.
Troops: 3 min storm guardian units with a fusion buried in each squad.
And 3 wraiths lords with swords running up firld backed up by a blob of wraith blades out of ds, banshees in WS, and scorpions lurking around.
I guess the second trait should be the charge distance, but not sure if better to go for cover at 12" and rely on the 2" power alone to make that key charge.
At min max level with different detatchements some interesting builds come to mind but struggling for ideas for an army wide synergy.
+4" shuriken and ignore cover is obvious and would work against most enemies, make it harder to screen from shuriken catapults and works for every gun in the army, especially nice on Tempest launcher.
For me, Hawks have now become a premier screening/anti-deepstrike charge unit. It’s not going to help vs Raven Guard, but reducing the charge distance by 2” is super strong.
With the new traits, I keep looking at Wraithlords. It’s just a shame that nothing ignores the move and shoot penalty for heavy weapons.
105 points with Bright lance and Fists with Salamander trait looks neat.
I am also looking at possibility to going as far as spending CP on Auxiliary to take Bike Warlock with 1s becoming 2s, maybe +2 to advance for Fly and Impair Senses.
I'm entering a Highlander 1500 ITC tournament in two weeks time with the objective of being fluffy. I'm running my exodites so that side is covered, but with the release of this book, is it worth making a custom craftworld or sticking with the tried and true Alaitoc? (Highlander being units except for troops are limited to 0-1)
I was very impressed with 5 man Dire Avenger units with AP-3 on the Exarchs in a game last night. I took the Salamander trait and ignore cover, both of which were very helpful for mowing down genestealer cult infantry. 5+ overwatch was great too.
Shadenuat wrote: +4" shuriken and ignore cover is obvious and would work against most enemies, make it harder to screen from shuriken catapults and works for every gun in the army, especially nice on Tempest launcher.
Wouldint the flat -1 be better if you going to invest into full shuriken centric build with the first trait? Ignore cover seems bit situational in comparison..
Regarding WL, the heavy weapon movement penalty hurts even with re-roll. I think going msuWW or vyper in the backfield seems better platform for BL with salamanders as they are cheaper.
I find the WL with sword (and 1xSC if spare points) to be quite effective. Hes drawing fire as nobody wants him charging tanks/dreads and can bring the pain.
He wants to be going forward to threaten bigger things distraction carnifex style. From memory I think he degrades after 3/4 wounds down to bs 4 so if you move you be hitting on 5s. Not sure its wortj 20 points sticking a BL on those fellas if you ask me.
I think having the WL always in cover sounds more appealing. A T8 2+ defence feels right for a WL. Always in cover applies to tanks as well I take it?
Ignoring cover is a pretty broken mechanic so it's a good bit better than a flat -1 for shuriken as your other weapons benefit from it.
The game revolves about maxing your saves and most people deploy in cover, and removing that avenue makes it very difficult for your opponent and very good for you giving you some excellent board control. 10 hellblasters in cover? Yes it's the same for shuriken weapons but let's say you shoot dark reapers at them, that 4+ save is now a 5+ because you removed cover. The new Raven Guard and similar having cover outside of 12 inches? Gone.
Yes, and while some enemies don't care for cover, neither do they care for -1 AP as well then (like those with natural invul).
Of course, -1 AP is better against anything that can't claim cover, from not-infantry to any vehicle which is not T8 (or with T8 if you have loads of Shuriken cannons). Personally I of course like it because it is about agressive play (being within that 12", the thrill!) but I admit for safe play, Avengers sniping from 22" into enemies sitting in ruin without cover for them is just more simple.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Ignoring cover is a pretty broken mechanic so it's a good bit better than a flat -1 for shuriken as your other weapons benefit from it.
The game revolves about maxing your saves and most people deploy in cover, and removing that avenue makes it very difficult for your opponent and very good for you giving you some excellent board control. 10 hellblasters in cover? Yes it's the same for shuriken weapons but let's say you shoot dark reapers at them, that 4+ save is now a 5+ because you removed cover. The new Raven Guard and similar having cover outside of 12 inches? Gone.
Ah I see. With the 4" shuri range id assume you are maxing out SC and guardian bombs/DA/twin cat bikes so the flat -1 seems the better choice.
I have a feeling that chapter masters are going to make alaitoc much less useful against marines, obviously -1 is always good but rerolling all misses makes it less effective.
But a lot of marine firepower is 24-30 inch range so I'm wondering if reapers, hornet pulse lasers, fire prisms and other stuff with 48+ inch range might be good to field against them since they tend to be slow moving too so you may get a turn or two to soften them up.
I'm also wondering if the auto cover trait to give vehicles a 2+ might be useful since avoiding getting hit is more difficult now.
Thoughts?
kingheff wrote: I'm also wondering if the auto cover trait to give vehicles a 2+ might be useful since avoiding getting hit is more difficult now.
Thoughts?
The more I look at it the more I like the salamander trait + either auto cover or vehicles heal 1 wound per turn in a Spearhead detachment of 3 Fire Prisms and some Vibro Support Batteries.
Yeah I've been looking at 2 options, more fluffy footdar with a lot of shuriken using the -1 within 12 and ignore cover to max out close quarters dmg and a lot of bodies
Or
Lots of vehicles and MSU hard hitting units with the salamanders trait and either cover or healing, shame that we cant have healing WL, love their models
Automatically Appended Next Post: Second option might make BL vypers decent (still less comp tho)
Yeah im in a similiar boat. Alitoic is still mega good though. Not as effective vs reroll all of the dice, but still good especialy with certain units.
The salamander trait feels fun for me and feels like a breath of fresh air. It lends itself to msu single unit builds rather than relying on blobs for guide. So as long as the thing is cheap and you can stick a BL on it why not? Also it frees up some psychic as guide is no longer such a clutch power as youre no longer relying on big blobs. Hopefuly this will mean your opponents will need to over invest fire power into killing stuff as wounds wont carry over to the rest of the unit/squadron.
I really like the idea of cover saves for everyone but wound healing is tempting also as I realy like bonesingers so some synergy there for me. I havent got the codex in front of me so cant remember exact save values for everything, But 2+ wraiths do sound as tough as i always imagine them to be.
Without looking at all the powers for exarchs though its hard to think of footdar aspect lists outside of shuriken extra range plus/charge increase.
For me cover wins hands down. For example my CHEs hit on 2s, rerolling one hit and wound, with a 2+/5++ save, still -1 to hit. (1cp for 2 traits) I think that's about as good as it's going to get for them for the foreseeable future, and I think I actually prefer it to Alaitoc.
grouchoben wrote: For me cover wins hands down. For example my CHEs hit on 2s, rerolling one hit and wound, with a 2+/5++ save, still -1 to hit. (1cp for 2 traits) I think that's about as good as it's going to get for them for the foreseeable future, and I think I actually prefer it to Alaitoc.
Where is the 2+ 5++ coming from?
I wouldint expect flier battlefield role to het cover saves. I think that was faq'd a while back.
grouchoben wrote: For me cover wins hands down. For example my CHEs hit on 2s, rerolling one hit and wound, with a 2+/5++ save, still -1 to hit. (1cp for 2 traits) I think that's about as good as it's going to get for them for the foreseeable future, and I think I actually prefer it to Alaitoc.
I agree. That combo works well for MSU, Wraithlords, tanks and even Cannon Wraithknight.
I'm thinking a long range gunline with cover and the psychic trait could be very nice, everything gets a defensive buff and your buffing psykers are more efficient.
The 5++ is an Exarch power, the 2++ is from constant cover save
You think flyers can't receive cover - why? Prepared Positions was changed so that it doesn't give flyers cover, I know that much, but I could well have missed an FAQ thing.
I'm pretty sure flyers can benefit from cover, and that trait makes a lot of sense if you're taking a lot of vehicles or bikes.
The ignore cover trait feel almost essential vs space marines (depending how much terrain there is). If my list contains any AP '-' shooting for dealing with hordes, those guns become useless against Primaris in cover.
Ahh, I see. Just reread the strat, and it allows you to take the original exarch power in addition to one more, not to take two of your choice. My bad, thanks.
Has there been any info if any of the existing CWE attributes are getting an update? I could see Alaitoc swapping to the Masters of Concealment trait, plus non-vehicles/non-titanic units being -1 to hit if actually in terrain (a la the same thing that happened to Raven guard)
Pointing at Alaitoc? Honestly I think hard to hit rules are diminishing slowly without further adjustments because some of the latest releases bringt reroll all hit (not just misses), granting 2+ ballistics (imagine on damaged vehicles), +modifiers for hit and the like. If anything I would like to see a global change to limit all modifiers to never go above/under +1/-1 after applieing all stacked buffs and being counted against each other. That way modifiers still are valuable but stacking doesn't create silly combinations (negative to avoid shooting attacks entirely, positive to get explosive attacks too easily for example). Right now though I don't have the feeling that GW really cares.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The original craftworld traits are unchanged as of Phoenix Rising/Psychic Awakening.
That's kinda surprising.
-
Not really. Gw has shown it won't change similar things just like that. Remember how everybody thought ca18 would unify plasma ala orks? Rerolls are divided as well cawl or non cawl.
Data04_exe wrote: So wait.... can we get Shining Spears to a 2++ against shooting now??
Skilled Rider: This unit gets a 3+ invuln against ranged weapons. + Protect?
If so - WOW!
Skilled Rider only affects the Exarch. While he can tank quite a bit the unit will go down quickly once the Exarch has fallen. Might still be worth a try, but that way it's really not broken.
The Exarch isn't quite the same as a Custodes with shield to tank saves forever but it increases the viability of the unit decently. I'm taking a unit of 5 in my next game to give them a go. I think those coupled with an Autarch Skyrunner and a Jetlock they could be pretty strong.
Data04_exe wrote: So wait.... can we get Shining Spears to a 2++ against shooting now??
Skilled Rider: This unit gets a 3+ invuln against ranged weapons. + Protect?
If so - WOW!
Skilled Rider only affects the Exarch. While he can tank quite a bit the unit will go down quickly once the Exarch has fallen. Might still be worth a try, but that way it's really not broken.
Ah okay got it. I was just confused by the word "unit" instead of "model". But i think you are right.
Yesir Ive been very happy with vibro cannons/Spinner cannons. I rate them highly.
37 points for vibro is bargain especialy if you field more than 3. Could potentially stop 2-3 units from advancing which can be a huge deal. I dealt with some pox walkers this way last time I played which really won me the game.
The spinner variant is also solid I think. LOS ignoring dakka is always nice and useful.
D canons seem a bit too expensive but with the new trait I might test them out.
5x Dire Avengers- Ex + 2x Cats at AP-3 5x Dire Avengers- Ex + 2x Cats at AP-3 5x Dire Avengers- Ex + 2x Cats at AP-3 5x Dire Avengers- Ex + 2x Cats at AP-3 5x Dire Avengers- Ex + 2x Cats at AP-3 5x Dire Avengers- Ex + 2x Cats at AP-3
5x Fire Dragons- Ex, 3D6 Advance 5x Fire Dragons- Ex, 3D6 Advance 6x Striking Scorpions- Ex + Claw, 5+ MWs
5x Warp Spiders- Ex + 2x Spinner, Withdraw 5x Swooping Hawks- Ex + H.Talon, 5+ MWs 5x Swooping Hawks- Ex + H.Talon, 5+ MWs 3x Shining Spears- Ex + Star Lance, 3++ 3x Shining Spears- Ex + Star Lance, 3++ 3x Shining Spears- Ex + Star Lance, 3++
3x Dark Reapers- Ex, Fast Shot 3x Dark Reapers- Ex, Fast Shot 3x Dark Reapers- Ex, Fast Shot
Crimson Hunter Exarch- Hits on 2's
2000pts. 15 CP. No Banshees :(
I think this will be a lot of fun, and possibly even effective.
Seems like a really cool list although there are portions of it which I would drop immediately like the fire dragons and warp spiders as they won't do enough in my opinion.
I like all of the mortal wound spam but I feel effects like that can be quite swingy.
warpedpig wrote: Does anyone ever run support weapons. D cannon Vibro cannons. Etc.
Yes. They're cheap and pretty tough. Vibro cannon (the plural form of cannon is cannon!) are probably the most useful, but you need to take more than three for them to be truly effective.
Spinners are okay. They're relatively punchless, but they're cheap, have decent range, and don't need LOS, so they're perfect for filling out your backfield. However, if you're planning on them actually killing anything and not just rounding out your army you'll need to take a lot of them, which takes away spots from the Vibro cannon.
D-cannon are tricky. I use them the most often, purely for thematic reasons, and while they're shorter ranged and more expensive than the other weapons, they're not too expensive. 70-ish points is still pretty cheap for a no-LOS demolisher cannon. The real problem with them is that they can only really engage targets that come to them, and some enemies don't want to move closer.
Spartacus wrote: Better than Shadowfields (against ranged), you can reroll the result with a CP. Super tanky.
Zooming a 2++ Shining Spear Exarch up to something like a knight, then casting the new "must shoot closest enemy" psychic power on it sounds like a nice trick.
Spartacus wrote: Better than Shadowfields (against ranged), you can reroll the result with a CP. Super tanky.
Zooming a 2++ Shining Spear Exarch up to something like a knight, then casting the new "must shoot closest enemy" psychic power on it sounds like a nice trick.
I was thinking more the large Guardian blob in the middle of the table, with a 4++, protect (for a 3++), LQR, etc. Might lose wounds twice as fast as the Shining Spear exarch with the same powers/stratagems, but you're paying 6ppm or 8ppm per W, and can have 20 of them. Also, they've already put 40 ShuriKat rounds into something.
Wow. Is this the first unit to have access to 2++/-3 to hit? Feels like some kind of record. Must be one of the least appealing things to shoot in the whole game.
slave.entity wrote: Wow. Is this the first unit to have access to 2++/-3 to hit? Feels like some kind of record. Must be one of the least appealing things to shoot in the whole game.
Is it really that scary?
100-ish points and a Power to get to 3W at T4 2++ and 4W at T4 3++. For the same points, you could have 25 T3 5+. That doesn't look too wrong to me.
Is this notably better than StormShield Marines? Or 4++ Guardians?
A 2++ is stupidly good. But on only a 3W T4 model, it'll have some limits.
Still doesn't work on CC attacks though, and Spears have to get stupid close to be effective. If your opponent shoots at them when their defences all go off, they want their head looking at. I think I prefer +1 on the charge trait, just to make them a good DS unit. Right now I don't have much use for them, try as I might.
So ahhh... reading Phoenix Rising Im a little confusticated by one of the new psychic powers "Focus Will". It states (slightly paraphrased):
Warp charge 6. select one friendly <CRAFTWORLD> PSYKER model within 6" of this psyker. Until the end of this phase, when a Deny the Witch test is taken for that model, add 2 to the total.
The end of this phase? Meaning the current psychic phase when none of your psykers would ever possibly need to try and deny the witch?
What do you think went wrong here - should it just be 'psychic test' instead which would make the rest of the wording correct? Seems unlikely they would just totally cock up the normal 'Until the start of your next psychic phase' wording like other powers have. The power description just states: 'The psyker channels their mind to aid a fellow seer.'
If that is the case and they errata it properly, could be a nice handy little Warlock power take to supercharge Eldrad or something, +4 total to his psychic tests after taking 'Seer Council' and his magic staff into account.
Just occurred to me that the "always in cover" trait also works really well with protect and shining spears. Most things will be shooting at a 1+ save meaning the spears won't even need to use their invuln until AP3 or greater.
£0.50 says the always cover gets FAQ not to include units with fly...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spartacus wrote: So ahhh... reading Phoenix Rising Im a little confusticated by one of the new psychic powers "Focus Will". It states (slightly paraphrased):
Warp charge 6. select
one friendly <CRAFTWORLD>
PSYKER model within 6" of this
psyker. Until the end of this
phase, when a Deny the Witch
test is taken for that model, add
2 to the total.
The end of this phase? Meaning the current psychic phase when none of your psykers would ever possibly need to try and deny the witch?
What do you think went wrong here - should it just be 'psychic test' instead which would make the rest of the wording correct? Seems unlikely they would just totally cock up the normal 'Until the start of your next psychic phase' wording like other powers have. The power description just states: 'The psyker channels their mind to aid a fellow seer.'
If that is the case and they errata it properly, could be a nice handy little Warlock power take to supercharge Eldrad or something, +4 total to his psychic tests after taking 'Seer Council' and his magic staff into account.
Well...you are paraphrasing. Anyone have a snapshot ?
Spartacus wrote: So ahhh... reading Phoenix Rising Im a little confusticated by one of the new psychic powers "Focus Will". It states (slightly paraphrased):
Warp charge 6. select
one friendly <CRAFTWORLD>
PSYKER model within 6" of this
psyker. Until the end of this
phase, when a Deny the Witch
test is taken for that model, add
2 to the total.
The end of this phase? Meaning the current psychic phase when none of your psykers would ever possibly need to try and deny the witch?
What do you think went wrong here - should it just be 'psychic test' instead which would make the rest of the wording correct? Seems unlikely they would just totally cock up the normal 'Until the start of your next psychic phase' wording like other powers have. The power description just states: 'The psyker channels their mind to aid a fellow seer.'
If that is the case and they errata it properly, could be a nice handy little Warlock power take to supercharge Eldrad or something, +4 total to his psychic tests after taking 'Seer Council' and his magic staff into account.
Yeah, the wording is totally borked on this one, I am sure it will be FAQ'd to read until your next psychic phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can see flyers being excluded from the cover bonus trait but not just a blanket ban on everything with fly. That would be very limiting since nearly all our vehicles, bikes and even some infantry have the fly keyword.
Argive wrote: £0.50 says the always cover gets FAQ not to include units with fly...
That would negate the ability to all Jetbike riders, Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Autarch with Wings, all tanks, all fliers. I have no idea what GW will do, but that would be the secondary effect for trying to restrict fliers from gaining a cover save.
Argive wrote: £0.50 says the always cover gets FAQ not to include units with fly...
That would negate the ability to all Jetbike riders, Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Autarch with Wings, all tanks, all fliers. I have no idea what GW will do, but that would be the secondary effect for trying to restrict fliers from gaining a cover save.
I should have corrected myself to say Units with a flier battlefield role. I'm pretty sure this was FAQ'd for prepared positions
Ynnari is the unwanted halfwit problem child they took into the family on a whim, and have regretted it ever seince.Now they cant just get rid of so they are waiting for it to die of natural causes..
My bet is that the avatar of Ennead was so costly to make and the moulds very complicated (thus expensive?) they just force themselves to soldier on and rip off as much money as possible to recover that investment by any means possible..
Shadenuat wrote: Sent onto GWFAQ mail question about if Disarm is cumulative, what does Witchblade power do to Conclave and that Deny power doesn't work.
Also I found new Exarch powers not being allowed to Ynnari quite amusing.
three turnips says Witchblade will only count the model who casts it as the Conclave rules say you pick a model to cast, cos cant have not marine factions doing all the damages all the time, although at £20 a pop sales might say otherwise (of course being the arch wannabe hipster I am I done robbed GW by getting the chapterhouse ones)
Let us know how you get on with the email Shadenaut.
In terms of actual tactics now as this has somewhat veered off into complaining about rules that has been covered in general discussion, what do people think of taking max squads of Dark Reapers? Overkill or does it even matter as long as they eat the things they shoot?
In terms of actual tactics now as this has somewhat veered off into complaining about rules that has been covered in general discussion, what do people think of taking max squads of Dark Reapers? Overkill or does it even matter as long as they eat the things they shoot?
With the new reaper ability where the exarch can shoot twice, I wouldn't be a bad idea to have 3 MSU squads with the exarch having that ability because you'll get 4 shots per squad so for 9 models that's 12 shots versus 10 (or 9 and a tempest launcher)
In terms of actual tactics now as this has somewhat veered off into complaining about rules that has been covered in general discussion, what do people think of taking max squads of Dark Reapers? Overkill or does it even matter as long as they eat the things they shoot?
With the new reaper ability where the exarch can shoot twice, I wouldn't be a bad idea to have 3 MSU squads with the exarch having that ability because you'll get 4 shots per squad so for 9 models that's 12 shots versus 10 (or 9 and a tempest launcher)
Yeah this TBH, I don't think a max squad of Dark Reapers is that much better than before with the new powers, but 3 squads of 3 sure as hell is. Toss in a Warlock or cheap Autarch and you have yourself a nice little spearhead detachment for an extra CP too.
But to be fair, a max reaper squad is still as nasty as its ever been, being able to dump 11 missiles onto something, ignoring modifiers, and then fire and fade back into your ruin is strong as hell. And I always like to have a good candidate unit for Forewarned as well, which they are perfect for.
I got the same impression. A max reaper squad is a deathstar, and the double-shoot adds a little firepower (~+10%). But an MSU Reaper squad - or 3 MSU reaper squads - get a lot of firepower (~+30%). So it doesn't really impact the old Reaper Deathstar list much, but adds another feather in the MSU cap.
Which is generally the more fun way to play with/against them anyways.
Yeah this is one of the points I was thinking about. Fire and Fade is excellent with a big squad but having small units means they can be picked off pretty easily without being able to hide them again.
Now that I have the new supplement it has been quite fun to theory craft using the exarch powers. It'll be interesting how useful MSU units will be in the likes of ITC, where you don't want to give away points.
I'm torn between remaining Alaitoc or swapping for the Always in cover outside 12" and the Salamander style rerolls.
It seems like the Always cover has the same tactical requirements (staying outside 12", etc) as Alaitoc and while it doesn't have that same stacking effect and some things ignore cover, it still helps. Then giving the rest of my army reroll 1 hit & 1 wound a la Salamanders should give me more punch, and honestly save me some CPs and I burn through Command Rerolls pretty quickly trying to mitigate bad rolls.
My son plays Salamanders and I know first hand just how useful those reroll can be, even when combined with Captain rerolls (or in this case, Autarchs which I have in my list). I've seen him go entire turns (not just phases) without needing to use the CRR, while I'm using them in every phase to maximize the hits/wounds something needs to be effective.
The only thing making me hesitant is that I play Hemlocks (auto-hit) and Prism (linked Fire), so the reroll trait wouls only seem to benefit my Spears, Rangers, Crimson Hunter and Autarchs. And with the Autarchs nearby and my Farseer casting Doom, even those units might not need the rerolls
Galef wrote: I'm torn between remaining Alaitoc or swapping for the Always in cover outside 12" and the Salamander style rerolls.
It seems like the Always cover has the same tactical requirements (staying outside 12", etc) as Alaitoc and while it doesn't have that same stacking effect and some things ignore cover, it still helps. Then giving the rest of my army reroll 1 hit & 1 wound a la Salamanders should give me more punch, and honestly save me some CPs and I burn through Command Rerolls pretty quickly trying to mitigate bad rolls.
My son plays Salamanders and I know first hand just how useful those reroll can be, even when combined with Captain rerolls (or in this case, Autarchs which I have in my list).
I've seen him go entire turns (not just phases) without needing to use the CRR, while I'm using them in every phase to maximize the hits/wounds something needs to be effective.
The only thing making me hesitant is that I play Hemlocks (auto-hit) and Prism (linked Fire), so the reroll trait wouls only seem to benefit my Spears, Rangers, Crimson Hunter and Autarchs. And with the Autarchs nearby and my Farseer casting Doom, even those units might not need the rerolls
-
The sallie Hand me down trait seems to lend itself really realy well to the MSU builds. Cheap single unit of Vypers/ walkers etc. Even with prisms if you are down to one prism or its better to split fire it would still have its uses. For me its a toss up behind ignore cover/Always in cover and Salamanders
Argive wrote: The sallie Hand me down trait seems to lend itself really realy well to the MSU builds. Cheap single unit of Vypers/ walkers etc. Even with prisms if you are down to one prism or its better to split fire it would still have its uses. For me its a toss up behind ignore cover/Always in cover and Salamanders
But is it worth dropping Alaitoc altogether? Having 3 Flyers and 2 Ranger units makes me think it might be ok since they already have -1 to be hit, but the Prisms might suffer.
Then again, with Linked Fire, you don't need 2 of them in LoS of the target so long as they can see the main Prism, which will likely NOT be in cover
Galef wrote: But is it worth dropping Alaitoc altogether? Having 3 Flyers and 2 Ranger units makes me think it might be ok since they already have -1 to be hit, but the Prisms might suffer.
Then again, with Linked Fire, you don't need 2 of them in LoS of the target so long as they can see the main Prism, which will likely NOT be in cover
It is a good question. You are losing out a bit on durability in exchange for an increase in offensive power.
The other thing to remember is that a lot of Eldar players rely heavily on Guide + Doom to force damage through. MSU units with "Master Crafters" don't really need this which means you can experiment with some of the other psychic powers in our arsenal.
Karhedron wrote: The other thing to remember is that a lot of Eldar players rely heavily on Guide + Doom to force damage through. MSU units with "Master Crafters" don't really need this which means you can experiment with some of the other psychic powers in our arsenal.
This is my thinking as well. I'll still want Doom in general for my 20 Guardian blob, but Expert Crafters gives me the option to not have to keep firing at the Doomed unit the most bang out of my units.
IMO, swapping Alaitoc for JUST Expert Crafters OR Masters of Concealment is not a good trade, but both combined should have just enough durability to justify the slight drop to get more self-sufficient units. Heck. those 2 traits make my lone Autarch Skyrunners that much better. Already gets the reroll 1s, but getting to reroll that 2 you roll whiel moving with a Reaper launcher is pretty sweet and he'll basically always have Doom on the Reaper launcher
Argive wrote: Does anyone have a list of all the new psychic powers?
Sure, they are right here. The coolest thing is that Warlocks can take them instead of "Destructor" meaning they can potentially have 2 buffing powers if you want/need.
Runes of Fortune:
Ghostwalk WC6: Select 1 friendly unit within 6″ charge rolls get +2
Fateful Divergence: Warp charge 4, select one friendly Craftworld unit within 6 inches until your next psychic phase they can reroll a single hit roll wound roll or save roll.
Witch Strike: Warp charge 4, add 2 to the damage characteristic of this psyker’s melee weapons
Crushing Orb: Warp charge 6, select one enemy character within 18 and visible to the psyker, roll 3d6 each 5+ is a mortal wound
Focus Will: Warp charge 6, select a friendly craftworld psyker within 6 inches until your next psychic phase add two to any deny the witch test taken by the chosen psyker.
Impair Senses: Warp charge 6, select one enemy unit within 18 and visible to the psyker, until your next psychic phase the unit can only shoot the closest visible unit unless the target is within 18 inches
Ghostwalk is an obvious go-to power for anyone running chunky melee units.
Witchstrike could potentially be really interesting IF it applies to all the weapons in a Warlock conclave. Not sure if that is the intended effect though.
Impair senses is a very interesting one. In theory if you could blast your warlock up the board into a hiding spot and cast on an enemy big scary shooting and present them with some warp spiders/ Guardian chaff to shoot at. But too situational.
Bit meh all in all.. Was hoping there was a hidden gem. I don't think Id take a second power if I went this discipline to be honest Stick to the 1MW smite... The re-roll save one is interesting as its only WC4. If the wraith knight could get a 4++ first turn with spirit host and always be in cover I would really consider it. Re-roll saves and fortune could make him a bit more survivable. Alas if he don't get first turn its pretty much a bye bye for him lol.
Unless the damages one applies to conclave.. I could work with that. Makes my foot conclave plan a little bit less gimpish..
I think conceal/protect or enhance are still my favourite. Especialy always in cover and protect plus fortune can make some beefy wraith guard..
I think these powers are alright actually, it gives Warlocks some toolbox flexibility and gives the player choice instead of just automatically trying to cast protect/jinx.
No one uses the 1 MW smite anyway due to the range so it really enhances the battle mage theme of Warlocks. They also save on CP so it's marginal gain but lets you focus on the big picture.
Ghostwalk replaces the Biel-Tan charge stratagem or adds to it if you really want to get into combat.
Fateful Divergence is quite nice on a tank or character where you might need a CP otherwise.
I personally don't see much use in Witch Strike, the wording reads so it targets the psyker, not the unit.
Crushing orb is a high roll power, not great.
Focus will is actually pretty good and is almost guaranteed to go off and pretty major if you can deny psychic centric armies.
Impair Senses I can't see myself using but in the event I decide to run guardian bombs again, forcing a repulsor executioner to shoot chaff is awesome.
I think I'll be replacing smite/destructor almost every time and gives some great utility to warlocks which are basically tax.
I think they're my favourite part of the supplement actually. They feel well thought-out, and as you say add a lot to Warlocks who appreciate the buff.
Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.
Azuza001 wrote: Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.
It is cast on an enemy unit, not a friendly unit. Still workable, but need to ensure the caster gets within 18" of target to cast.
Azuza001 wrote: Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.
It is cast on an enemy unit, not a friendly unit. Still workable, but need to ensure the caster gets within 18" of target to cast.
Hemlocks are spiritseers so can replace their smite with runes of fortune iirc.
I think people are massively over-rating Alaitoc now with SM Chapter Masters getting full re-rolls like Admec's Cawl.
So hitting on 4+ re-rolling is still a 75% chance to hit.
Imperial fists can get "Tesla" on their bolters, thus a natural 6 gives 3 hits, and they can re-roll all hits.
So without re-rolls, there's a 1/6 chance to get 3 hits. So on average 0.5 hits or 50% hit rate.
They have a 5/6 chance of getting a 1/6 chance of another 3 hits (re-roll any hit)
5/6 * 1/6 * 3 = 15/36
So 1/2 + 15/36 = 33/36 !
So an effective 91 % hit rate. There was a reason Necrons did not get full re-rolls. Also note, that since you get 3 hits on a **natural** 6, you can't stop it from proccing with -1 to hit like you can with Tesla.
Heavy Bolters will be 91% hit, 2 damage and -2 AP, with further +1 to wound via strats. Alaitoc fly lists are dead, most people just don't know it yet.
As a bonus Imperial Fists get to ignore cover anyway.
I have definintely noticed the huge difference that CMs make to Alaitoc flyers now, in the numarine games I've played. It's pretty damn stark. IF are way more of a problem than IH for flyer spam, to be sure.
But are there better traits for Flyers besides Alaitoc? Personally, I do think Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment are good combos for MSU style army, but since Hemlocks auto-hit and CHE's reroll 1's to wound and reroll wounds against units with FLY, I don't see Expert Crafters as being enough of a bonus to merit losing the total -2 to be hit.
grouchoben wrote: CHEs take 2+ to hit instead, or 5++, if they go expert crafter.
Don't they lose the reroll 1s to hit if they select either of those Exarch powers (or you have to spend a CP to add it as a second?)
-
Hitting on 2s with a pocket reroll is comparable accuracy with the number of attacks CHEs make.
Very true. But is it worth losing the -1 to be hit on the Hemlocks.
In other words, if I have a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE, is it worth trading -2 to be hit for -1 to be hit + Expert Crafter and say, Master of Concealment?
Since -1 to hit is not what it used to be, why not the FNP on 6 from Ulthwe, at least this can't be erased by simply playing against SM. I don't have the book yet, but can you take Ulthwe and Expert Crafters?
2+ with a pocket reroll is way more accurate than 3+ rerolling 1s. Hemlocks are another matter I guess. They lose the Alaitoc bonus so often though, due to range requirements.
grouchoben wrote: They lose the Alaitoc bonus so often though, due to range requirements.
Agreed, which is why having a single reroll to wound is tempting, even if the Master of Concealment would be lost just as often as the Alaitoc bonus
But that brings up another good question. Given that CHE really don't need to be close and thus can shirt damage, and Hemlocks are often too close for Alaitoc or MoC, what is a good second trait for a mixed flyer detachment?
Has anyone came up with a decent brigade with the salamanders trait? I had a play around and the troops feel like more of a tax than ever before and the elite slots don't really gel with this trait.
I'm thinking a battalion and a couple spearheads/outriders or maybe even all spearheads/outriders. With the free re-rolls, I feel there isn't all that much need for CP or autarch's.
Yeah but nothing in the elite slots seems to fit those traits for the brigade. Outside of maybe small unit for shadow spectres. Cant remember what's their min unit size. Its just that everything is so darn expensive.. I have big hopes for CA to lowe costs of AML or BL and our infantry.. a brigade with no tanks outside of 3 vypers comes out around 1500pts :(
I think I will give up on the brigade and try dual battalion. Wraith seer with D cannon sounds like fun.
Azuza001 wrote: Impare senses is actually quite amusing. Put it on a hemlock and fly up t1 to your opponents biggest long range unit and cast that on it.... yeah your executioner repulser can only target my hemlock at -2 to hit.... that's pretty mean lol.
It is cast on an enemy unit, not a friendly unit. Still workable, but need to ensure the caster gets within 18" of target to cast.
Hemlocks are spiritseers so can replace their smite with runes of fortune iirc.
Great point! I didn't think of that when I read the previous post.
Asherian Command wrote: Are any of the new craftworld traits worth taking over the old ones from the other craftworlds?
Or is the invulnerable save +6 and the -1 ap on shuriken weapons not worth taking over uthwe rules?
Jury is out. Alitoic seems to have been diminished considerably because of marines and all re-rolls.
The top tier traits seem to be:
Ignore cover
Always in Cover
Salamnder re-rolls
Shuriken range
Shuriken Ap Charge bonus
In certain builds they can be considered strong certainly. I think the salamnders re-roll in particular is very good. It allows you to go MSU with certain things without blobing up and makes everything much more reliable. .
Asherian Command wrote: Are any of the new craftworld traits worth taking over the old ones from the other craftworlds?
Or is the invulnerable save +6 and the -1 ap on shuriken weapons not worth taking over uthwe rules?
Jury is out. Alitoic seems to have been diminished considerably because of marines and all re-rolls.
The top tier traits seem to be:
Ignore cover Always in Cover Salamnder re-rolls Shuriken range Shuriken Ap Charge bonus
In certain builds they can be considered strong certainly. I think the salamnders re-roll in particular is very good. It allows you to go MSU with certain things without blobing up and makes everything much more reliable. .
Alaitoc, despite all of the Cawl rerolls now is still the best trait by a good margin. The difference between your CHE being -1 or -2 to hit is still a big deal and increases the survivability of the army considerably.
Always in cover seems good, but you're not getting 2+ saves like Raven Guard intercessors get as they slog up the board. If you're running MSU squads they shouldn't be in LOS unless absolutely necessary or they should be sitting in a tank. The moment your dudes get into LOS, if they're a high enough threat, will be shot to pieces.
The Salamander reroll is a good trait, but Salamanders didn't see play even with the trait.
Saying this though, there is nothing stopping someone from min-maxing the hell out of the traits per detachment. Have your air wing be Alaitoc, an MSU spearhead of Dark Reapers as in cover + ignore cover, and a battalion with ignore cover + something else.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Saying this though, there is nothing stopping someone from min-maxing the hell out of the traits per detachment. Have your air wing be Alaitoc, an MSU spearhead of Dark Reapers as in cover + ignore cover, and a battalion with ignore cover + something else.
Yeah, this is where I'm at right now. Out of the 3 detachments I tend to take (Battalion, Flyer & Spearhead), I'm still thinking that at least one of those will still be Alaitoc.
But I'm torn for which. As discussed above, there is merit to having 2 Hemlocks + 1 CHE as Alaitoc, but the Always Cover + Sallie rerolls can work on them too. I'm also torn about my Spearhead, which has 3 Prisms. The Sallie rerolls would be great for them and mean I might not have to rely on Linked Fire (and thus save some CPs). But then again, with Linked Fire, you don't need the rerolls and may get even more rerolls, so keeping them Alaitoc would seem to get the max out of them.
So, side question, if min-maxing detachments, would you keep a Spearhead with 3 Prisms Alaitoc and rely on Linked Fire, or swap for the Sallie reroll + another trait and only use Linked Fire if something big has to die?
I think it's always worth reserving at least 3 CP for Linked Fire. It allows you to leave your fire prisms all over the board without psychic support and coupled with Alaitoc and the potential for LFR no one really goes for fire prisms (at least in my experience) unless they actually commit or have killed off your fliers.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I think it's always worth reserving at least 3 CP for Linked Fire. It allows you to leave your fire prisms all over the board without psychic support and coupled with Alaitoc and the potential for LFR no one really goes for fire prisms (at least in my experience) unless they actually commit or have killed off your fliers.
But that raises the counter argument (for me anyway) that by using Expert Crafters, the Prisms still don't need Psychic support, and if you also have the Flyers, the Prisms will be left alone and thus wouldn't need Alaitoc (or at least the Always Cover trait could be enough to discourage them be targeted before the Flyers)
And if I am not used Linked Fire every turn (as I do now) that's more left for LFR and other Strats. Man, this is a hard choice for me
Argive wrote: Aiming for slamanders hand me down & Cover list.
Has anyone came up with a decent brigade with the salamanders trait? I had a play around and the troops feel like more of a tax than ever before and the elite slots don't really gel with this trait.
I've not played with a Brigade yet, but Wraithguard get a lot of use out of both traits. Being in cover most of the time helps their survivability, and the rerolls make wraith cannon much better. I don't think they're a top choice, but they're definitely not bad. However, they are definitely not cheap.
If you wanted to try Shadow Spectres their minimum unit size is 3 so you can get a squad for less than 100 points.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I think it's always worth reserving at least 3 CP for Linked Fire. It allows you to leave your fire prisms all over the board without psychic support and coupled with Alaitoc and the potential for LFR no one really goes for fire prisms (at least in my experience) unless they actually commit or have killed off your fliers.
But that raises the counter argument (for me anyway) that by using Expert Crafters, the Prisms still don't need Psychic support, and if you also have the Flyers, the Prisms will be left alone and thus wouldn't need Alaitoc (or at least the Always Cover trait could be enough to discourage them be targeted before the Flyers)
And if I am not used Linked Fire every turn (as I do now) that's more left for LFR and other Strats. Man, this is a hard choice for me
-
Ah I should have clarified, I meant that using Alaitoc and if my opponent thinks I may LFR one of them, they won't shoot them and if they do, it's with weapons that are high enough AP for always in cover to not matter.
Freeing up CP for other strats is something I like the idea of though, as my army is pretty intensive on those.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Freeing up CP for other strats is something I like the idea of though, as my army is pretty intensive on those.
Indeed. Part of the appeal for Expert Crafters for me is that my son actually plays Salamanders and tends to not burn through CPs as fast I do. I was thinking that with the trait, my Autarchs which I like for other reasons and my Farseer casting Doom, I shouldn't need as many CPs for Command reroll, or even Linked Fire if my opponent doesn't have a big enough target. I'm basically wanting Linked Fire to be a back-up, just-in-case Strat, rather than the mandatory, even turn Strat
Heck, even just using Linked Fire for 1 turn, but relying on the Expert Crafters rerolls the rest of the game seems like a good option IMO
Autarch [4 PL, 99pts]: 5: Mark of the Incomparable Hunter, Banshee Mask, Craftworlds Warlord, Forceshield [6pts], Reaper Launcher [22pts], Star Glaive [6pts]
+ Heavy Support [26 PL, 441pts] +
Dark Reapers [7 PL, 134pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper [102pts]: 3x Reaper Launcher [66pts]
. Dark Reaper Exarch [32pts]: Aeldari Missile Launcher [20pts]
Dark Reapers [4 PL, 107pts]
. 2x Dark Reaper [68pts]: 2x Reaper Launcher [44pts]
. Dark Reaper Exarch [39pts]: Tempest Launcher [27pts]
Support Weapons [9 PL, 120pts]
. Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts]: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
. Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts]: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
. Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts]: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
Support Weapons [6 PL, 80pts]
. Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts]: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
. Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts]: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
++ Total: [114 PL, 13CP, 1,997pts] ++
I initially had 6 Vibros but took one out to make room for more reaper/spectre.
3CP for web way strike the guardians and Wraiths. Spirit seer drops with the relic and and spirit shields on the wraiths hopefuly casts protect.
Leaves 8 CP to play with for the battle -3 for celestial shield and LFR. 1 Cp for seer council to ensure conceal/fortune goes of on wither specters guardians or wraiths plus doom& guide.
Leaves 4 CP to play with for 2nd LFR/Celestial shield and the MW vs fliers strat from the AML.
Shouldn't need too many re-rolls as the spearhead will have the new salamanders trait and ignores cover.
How does the new rule interact with AML. If I chosen to do the D6 shots, can I then make an additional attack with the Str8 -2 AP ?
Here's what I'd suggest, take it with a pinch of salt... Drop the Spectres. They're cool but marines laugh at minus to hit now, they will be shredded as soon as a Chapter Master looks at them funny. Lose a reaper and lose the autarch's fusion gun - that gives you about enough for two wave serpents.
Hardly revolutionary I know, but I think they'd fit really well into this list, as they'd be near the top of the priority list for your opponent. Each contains a reaper squad (a huge buff to their survivability as you know!) and a cheeky storm squad - that's a really big buff to their usefulness, as they hop out T2 or 3 to wrap and trap or cap an objective. I've been sticking them in gunny serpents recently and they do much better work than they otherwise do, and 8 is a great number to ride with reapers and an hq.
Personally I don't feel there is enough antitank in there for the list to work and the stuff that is there will get shot to pieces or is too slow to make a big enough impact.
I also think running the first battalion is a very expensive way to get Eldrad into your list. Those guardians would be better using the ignore cover trait and something else instead of FNP from Ulthwe.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Personally I don't feel there is enough antitank in there for the list to work and the stuff that is there will get shot to pieces or is too slow to make a big enough impact.
I also think running the first battalion is a very expensive way to get Eldrad into your list. Those guardians would be better using the ignore cover trait and something else instead of FNP from Ulthwe.
But then id loose the black guardian strat and eldrad and less synergy without 4++ 6+++ to make them either shoot twice or soak up a lot of fire power. Not sure its worth it but appreciete the feedback.
10 wraith cannons dropping in on a doomed alpha target with guide, Backed up by all the black guardian shuriken & reaper pot shots (with rerolls) and all the rerolling vibros not enough fire power?
Yeah the specters are there for fun. But at -4/-3 they could work lol
If anything I'd say there's too much anti tank personally.
Only the guardian bomb and the spectres offer any real chaff clearing. I'd suggest dropping the reapers and look at something like scatter or cannon bikes.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Personally I don't feel there is enough antitank in there for the list to work and the stuff that is there will get shot to pieces or is too slow to make a big enough impact.
I also think running the first battalion is a very expensive way to get Eldrad into your list. Those guardians would be better using the ignore cover trait and something else instead of FNP from Ulthwe.
But then id loose the black guardian strat and eldrad and less synergy without 4++ 6+++ to make them either shoot twice or soak up a lot of fire power. Not sure its worth it but appreciete the feedback.
10 wraith cannons dropping in on a doomed alpha target with guide, Backed up by all the black guardian shuriken & reaper pot shots (with rerolls) and all the rerolling vibros not enough fire power?
Yeah the specters are there for fun. But at -4/-3 they could work lol
Wraithguard will kill something when they land but they can be screened out really easily and they're slow models, they might kill something, but they'll be wiped off the table asap.
I love Shadow Spectres, so tbh you should just keep em in!
kingheff wrote: If anything I'd say there's too much anti tank personally.
Only the guardian bomb and the spectres offer any real chaff clearing. I'd suggest dropping the reapers and look at something like scatter or cannon bikes.
I do have 2 tempest launchers in there... but yeah I agree it seems bit light on anit horde.
Did have a configuration of 3WW with BL/sca. I think that lends itself to re rolls and ignore cover well. The dual battalion is a tax for the wraiths sadly. I cant bring myself to min max it and dropping the second battalion & wraiths as the build is around the wraiths and specialist detatchement.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Personally I don't feel there is enough antitank in there for the list to work and the stuff that is there will get shot to pieces or is too slow to make a big enough impact.
I also think running the first battalion is a very expensive way to get Eldrad into your list. Those guardians would be better using the ignore cover trait and something else instead of FNP from Ulthwe.
But then id loose the black guardian strat and eldrad and less synergy without 4++ 6+++ to make them either shoot twice or soak up a lot of fire power. Not sure its worth it but appreciete the feedback.
10 wraith cannons dropping in on a doomed alpha target with guide, Backed up by all the black guardian shuriken & reaper pot shots (with rerolls) and all the rerolling vibros not enough fire power?
Yeah the specters are there for fun. But at -4/-3 they could work lol
Wraithguard will kill something when they land but they can be screened out really easily and they're slow models, they might kill something, but they'll be wiped off the table asap.
I love Shadow Spectres, so tbh you should just keep em in!
Thats 30 t6 -1/-2/-3 2+/3++/5+++ (if all the buffs and strats apply) wounds. No army is shifting that very easily. Especialy if you have guardians pincering the other side. Its not perfect but its the best i can come up with making wraith soecialist combo and support weapons workable.
That's a huge amount of points though and your opponent would have to do something terrible for them to make their points back.
I've had a miserable time with Guardian bombs due to screening so I can only imagine how bad it is for 10 40mm bases with 12" range that costs double the points.
That being said, I do enjoy Wraithguard and want to get my own on the table at some point.
Since I generally field a lot of wraith constructs, I'm all over Wrath of the Dead. Combine that with Savage Blades, The Vigilus detachment, Ghostwalk spell, it's looking pretty fun. Second half f list will probably be Guardian based with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry.
I ran the no cover and ignores cover in my last game as we tend 2 run a lot of scenery. The no cover one i felt actually gave my opponent a slight benefit as he then didnt need to worry about it at all. This allowed him more manouvreability and positioning options. Maybe something to consider?
kryczek wrote: I ran the no cover and ignores cover in my last game as we tend 2 run a lot of scenery. The no cover one i felt actually gave my opponent a slight benefit as he then didnt need to worry about it at all. This allowed him more manouvreability and positioning options. Maybe something to consider?
I kind of agree. In general CWE units either have little to no AP and therefore shouldn't be shooting are targets with decent Armour that would benefit from cover, or the AP is SO good that cover doesn't matter anyway. So it's hard for me to see the "ignores cover" trait as something worthwhile on a big detachment, outside of a few niche units/weapons like AP-1 Shuriken spam and EMLs
kryczek wrote: I ran the no cover and ignores cover in my last game as we tend 2 run a lot of scenery. The no cover one i felt actually gave my opponent a slight benefit as he then didnt need to worry about it at all. This allowed him more manouvreability and positioning options. Maybe something to consider?
Did you feel the cover trait gave more survivability over alitoic?
Tyranid Horde wrote: Always in cover seems good, but you're not getting 2+ saves like Raven Guard intercessors get as they slog up the board. If you're running MSU squads they shouldn't be in LOS unless absolutely necessary or they should be sitting in a tank. The moment your dudes get into LOS, if they're a high enough threat, will be shot to pieces.
The Salamander reroll is a good trait, but Salamanders didn't see play even with the trait.
I quite like the look of Master Crafters on Wraithlords. They get a small number of pretty potent attacks so a reroll to hit and wound each phase is quite tasty. Similarly, always being in cover outside 12" means they are T8/2+ against most long-ranged AT. That is Land Raider durability at a fraction of the price. Most Grav tanks do pretty well from this combo in fact.
I can't remember off the top of my head as I have not used support platforms for a long time but do they count as separate units once deployed? If so, Master Crafters would be golden on them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Always in cover seems good, but you're not getting 2+ saves like Raven Guard intercessors get as they slog up the board. If you're running MSU squads they shouldn't be in LOS unless absolutely necessary or they should be sitting in a tank. The moment your dudes get into LOS, if they're a high enough threat, will be shot to pieces.
The Salamander reroll is a good trait, but Salamanders didn't see play even with the trait.
I quite like the look of Master Crafters on Wraithlords. They get a small number of pretty potent attacks so a reroll to hit and wound each phase is quite tasty. Similarly, always being in cover outside 12" means they are T8/2+ against most long-ranged AT. That is Land Raider durability at a fraction of the price. Most Grav tanks do pretty well from this combo in fact.
I can't remember off the top of my head as I have not used support platforms for a long time but do they count as separate units once deployed? If so, Master Crafters would be golden on them.
Yes the platforms separate into individual units once deployed. The vibro cannon is only 40 points.. and You could field 9 of them. That's a lot of backfield zoning out and support firepower. I only run 2-3 and I really rate them. With the new re-rolls they can really zone out the backfield and don't need any psychic or Strat support.. Downside is you are giving up first strike/kill points quite easily but they require more than small arms fire to remove so they are fairly durable for their points.
Indeed wraithlord and salamnders/cover sounds sexy! Im looking forward to running that. Just the excuse I needed to get 2 more WL and convert them.
But I think the real winner is the Wraithseer with a BL/wraithcannon.. He does not look too shabby in this set up. 12W 2+ 5++ T8 not too bad for 120pts.. Actually its really good. Also fills a HQ slot which is a perk IMO..(I think the D-cannon is still too expensive). That's an excellent objective camper. Put 3 of them out with their buddy Wraithlords with similar set ups..
You can replace his useless Psychic powers with the new rise of the phoenix powers right ? The charge bonus power/MW output to make up for his like of smite. Id say give mark of hunter to one shot some chars with no invuln at the cost of giving up warlord..to really spice it up. Heck I think ill go buy some wraithlords/wraith seers right now..
I'm very interested in vibro cannons myself, I'm thinking about spamming nine with a bit of proxying! They do seem to encourage spamming with the cumulative effect of their guns.
For 360 points they put out a lot of firepower that gets really vicious when saturating one or two big targets.
I was thinking about the always in cover and guardian reroll ones traits would work great in a spearhead for this set up.
Wraithseer powers are much locked, they don't know smite so can't swap it for the runes of fortune, also they can't change their know powers from Ynnari ones as example.
They can take twilight gloom though, for always in cover. Nice for them as they tend to get close real quick. I prefer the wraith cannon on them personally, as BL gets shut of when you advance, and you should be advancing. I run two and have some success with them, but poison and hellfire hardcounter them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Always in cover seems good, but you're not getting 2+ saves like Raven Guard intercessors get as they slog up the board. If you're running MSU squads they shouldn't be in LOS unless absolutely necessary or they should be sitting in a tank. The moment your dudes get into LOS, if they're a high enough threat, will be shot to pieces.
The Salamander reroll is a good trait, but Salamanders didn't see play even with the trait.
I quite like the look of Master Crafters on Wraithlords. They get a small number of pretty potent attacks so a reroll to hit and wound each phase is quite tasty. Similarly, always being in cover outside 12" means they are T8/2+ against most long-ranged AT. That is Land Raider durability at a fraction of the price. Most Grav tanks do pretty well from this combo in fact.
I can't remember off the top of my head as I have not used support platforms for a long time but do they count as separate units once deployed? If so, Master Crafters would be golden on them.
Yeah, Wraith units look like they're getting the biggest benefit from expert crafters. I tend to eliminate them immediately as being too slow and too expensive to take but this might pip them to be viable.
In regards to the support weapons, they sound pretty great right now but is there space for 9 of them in a standard list? Do they outperform the units in the Heavy slot that they compete with?
Tyranid Horde wrote: In regards to the support weapons, they sound pretty great right now but is there space for 9 of them in a standard list? Do they outperform the units in the Heavy slot that they compete with?
Maybe?
Vibro cannon are cheap, but you need at least 4 (and probably more like 6) to be worth it. So they're going to end up costing as much or more as any other heavy choice. 6 of them is a lot of firepower, though, and is pretty tough so long as you can keep the enemy at arm's length.
D-cannon are bit more difficult to use, but you can do just fine with 1 and probably don't want more than 3, as they have a tendency to play forward and risk getting overrun in assault.
Spinners are cheap, you don't need many, and they don't do much. They're good filler that can harass the enemy's filler, but they're not going to contribute much beyond that.
Musing over a revisit of the Windrider Host now with Psychic Awakening. I don't have a lot of table-top experience so take with appropriate salt but these seem quite legit:
1, Howling Skysword of Galaleth & Witch Strike to get to a flat 5 damage. Low number of attacks and no AP but if one gets through then splat goes something.
2, Hail of Doom, Masterful Shots & Tempest of Blades. Looks like they stack to get your Shuriken to AP2/(4) for one turn, ignoring cover.
You've then also got the speed and enough in the opponents face that the new Impair Senses can do good work forcing anti-tank shots to go into things that are not your tanks.
Played 2 games today (Vigilus narrative so not hard core competitive). I ran a small wraith host in each game (second game also featured Ynnariquins).
I ran the wraiths as Vigilus Detachment with reroll charges on Spiritseer. I also ran a Bonesinger with the new Runes of Fortune. First game was Ghostwalk which I never got to use. The second game I used Fateful Divergence that was cast on a wraithlord each turn.
In both games, Wrath of the dead and Savage Blades was outstanding, especially when combined with Wrath of the Dead strategem in Vigilus. Seriously considering taking several sqds in serpents.
I’m curious what people think to running Eldrad with Witch Strike. I know he isn’t exactly a close combat beast but hitting on 2s, S5/AP-2/D3+2 damage sounds good to me and with Witch Strike going off on a 4 that gives a good chance to score his +1 to the rest of his powers? Just thinking it’s a shame he has to be Ulthwé and can’t benefit from a custom attribute to improve his number of attacks
Phoenix8472 wrote: I’m curious what people think to running Eldrad with Witch Strike. I know he isn’t exactly a close combat beast but hitting on 2s, S5/AP-2/D3+2 damage sounds good to me and with Witch Strike going off on a 4 that gives a good chance to score his +1 to the rest of his powers? Just thinking it’s a shame he has to be Ulthwé and can’t benefit from a custom attribute to improve his number of attacks
The ulthwe isn't that much of a draw back/
I stick him and a warlock in a detachment with guardian blob and rangers as a CP/psychic battery. Guardian blobs can get discipline of the black guardians and a FNP with celestial shield synergises quite well same with the rangers. I find it compensates for lack of alitoic. But its a gamey play if you make the rest of the detachments alitoic/custom...
He is an absolute weapon in his own right. with only 2 attacks I'm not sure id ever bother buffing him.
However I have given him protect and used him as bait.. 2++ and a 5+++ has saved his bacon more than once and hes such a target people have unloaded a lot of dakka at him before and he shrugged it of like a champ! Once 1 units shooting was invested and casued 0-1 they follow up again and again as they feel they need to kill him... Or he dies and does nothing lol. Not tournament wining strategy but a fun gamble!
Tyranid Horde wrote: In regards to the support weapons, they sound pretty great right now but is there space for 9 of them in a standard list? Do they outperform the units in the Heavy slot that they compete with?
Maybe?
Vibro cannon are cheap, but you need at least 4 (and probably more like 6) to be worth it. So they're going to end up costing as much or more as any other heavy choice. 6 of them is a lot of firepower, though, and is pretty tough so long as you can keep the enemy at arm's length.
D-cannon are bit more difficult to use, but you can do just fine with 1 and probably don't want more than 3, as they have a tendency to play forward and risk getting overrun in assault.
Spinners are cheap, you don't need many, and they don't do much. They're good filler that can harass the enemy's filler, but they're not going to contribute much beyond that.
Spinners sound really good with no cover/expert crafters. Having 3-4 of them will force opponent out of objectives and the 2 DMG is really good for clearing marines.
The reroll of EX + Autarch can make them really annoying for the opponent and will force him to come to you. You can get rid of this pesky eliminators, who are shooting your character from LOS and no +2 save for them in cover.
The d6 is still much better than d3 for clearing T3 chaffs and not needing LOS like vibro is huge. I really like D-Cannon, but it`s overpriced alot and 24 inch range is a problem.
Worth to notice Heavy weapons (former Vaul's Wrath) only can field Shadow weavers wich are S 6 dmg 1, while Spinners are the main weapon of the tank with higher S and Dmg.
Lord Perversor wrote: Worth to notice Heavy weapons (former Vaul's Wrath) only can field Shadow weavers wich are S 6 dmg 1, while Spinners are the main weapon of the tank with higher S and Dmg.
Damn you are right, somehow i always through they are D2.
With the new phoenix rising exarch upgrades you can get a 2++ (add protect) shining spear exarch. with 'fateful divergence' psychic power you can reroll 1 save and use a normal reroll (stratagem) for another 1 reroll save. Hell, give it fortune and/or evade and it would be a pain to remove. Combine this with almost nothing but characters; farseers skyrunners, warlock skyrunners, shadowseers and start trowing out mortal wounds and make sure the enemy can only shoot the shining spears. Maybe use some dark reapers with a dark reaper exarch that could drop in with deep strike and shoot at the anti-character snipers and also take out characters itself (dark reaper exarch within 18 exarch upgrade..)
With the new phoenix rising exarch upgrades you can get a 2++ (add protect) shining spear exarch. with 'fateful divergence' psychic power you can reroll 1 save and use a normal reroll (stratagem) for another 1 reroll save. Hell, give it fortune and/or evade and it would be a pain to remove. Combine this with almost nothing but characters; farseers skyrunners, warlock skyrunners, shadowseers and start trowing out mortal wounds and make sure the enemy can only shoot the shining spears. Maybe use some dark reapers with a dark reaper exarch that could drop in with deep strike and shoot at the anti-character snipers and also take out characters itself (dark reaper exarch within 18 exarch upgrade..)
Could this work?
I've been looking at the same in regards to Shining Spears tanking shots. 2++ with two rerolls is awfully tempting. Opponents generally will not and cannot ignore Shining Spears on the table.
I've been looking at Ynnarri and Harlequins for additional Mortal wound abilities. Ynnarri characters can go in non Ynarri Detachments (with some caveats). I'm not sure I want to use Warlocks for Mortal Wounds. My current list has 5 Mortal Wound powers that can be cast per turn; Smite x 3, Executioner, Gaze of Ynnead. Highest WC is a 7 which seems fairly easy with multiple methods to get bonuses. Yvraine, psychic power, Relic, stratagem.
I won't get to play until for nearly two weeks unfortunately, but I habe been going through the new book trying to find the right combination as not a whole lot stands out as obviously powerful.
2++ Spears are really good, and you could maybe use the "must shoot closest enemy" power to abuse it. It's not something you can build an army around though because the 2++ doesn't work in close combat or against Mortal wounds. You would just get crushed in certain match ups.
I ran a unit of 5 shining spears at the weekend in an ITC tournament. Protected shining spears are absolutely incredible against shooting. The 2++ exarch tanked an incredible amount of shots over the course of 5 games.
I didn't have any rerolls on the 2++ but it requires a huge amount of firepower just to shift that one unit.
The only issue I have with them is that they're extremely dependent on buffs for them to be effective and if you don't get protect off or you face a lot of mortal wound spam they're very dead.
I'll post my list later on for a bit of discussion. Spoiler, I came 11th out of 72 players and finished as the top Asuryani player.
Echeloon wrote: Any suggestion about the best CHE powers duo?
Defensive Marksman's Eye + Evade or offensive Marksman's Eye + Hawkeye?
Considering the right CW trait could give you a defense buff, I'd go with Marksman's Eye (i.e the one it starts with) and Hawkeyes.
So my vote is for Marksman's Hawkeye
1CP for both Marksman's Eye and Hawkeye was incredibly efficient in the tournament I was in. Almost every shot hit and anything with fly just evaporated against the CHE.
Banshees are.. bordering on okay now? The Exarch with piercing strike & Salamanders re-rolls gives them some decent damage impact, even against vehicles, and they still have their niche overwatch ignoring/tie up role. It's maybe the best they've been since 4th.
They still need 3A base or a points drop though. FAQ it GW!
Tyranid Horde wrote: 1CP for both Marksman's Eye and Hawkeye was incredibly efficient in the tournament I was in. Almost every shot hit and anything with fly just evaporated against the CHE.
Were you using Expert Crafters? Seems like you could save the CP by using this. Although if you shoot at anything with -1, both reroll 1s and 1 reroll to hit might mesh well if you roll a 2.
Khaine wrote:Banshees are.. bordering on okay now? The Exarch with piercing strike & Salamanders re-rolls gives them some decent damage impact, even against vehicles, and they still have their niche overwatch ignoring/tie up role. It's maybe the best they've been since 4th.
They still need 3A base or a points drop though. FAQ it GW!
No they're still not great and relying on rerolls isn't enough to get them there unfortunately.
Galef wrote:
Tyranid Horde wrote: 1CP for both Marksman's Eye and Hawkeye was incredibly efficient in the tournament I was in. Almost every shot hit and anything with fly just evaporated against the CHE.
Were you using Expert Crafters? Seems like you could save the CP by using this. Although if you shoot at anything with -1, both reroll 1s and 1 reroll to hit might mesh well if you roll a 2.
-
Ran them as standard Alaitoc. -2 is still too good to pass up and losing 1CP at the start of the game isn't a big deal when you hit on 2s and reroll 1s.
Sarigar wrote: I've been looking at Ynnarri and Harlequins for additional Mortal wound abilities. Ynnarri characters can go in non Ynarri Detachments (with some caveats). I'm not sure I want to use Warlocks for Mortal Wounds. My current list has 5 Mortal Wound powers that can be cast per turn; Smite x 3, Executioner, Gaze of Ynnead. Highest WC is a 7 which seems fairly easy with multiple methods to get bonuses. Yvraine, psychic power, Relic, stratagem.
I use a harlequin command detachment with 2 shadowseers, jester and solitair with suit of hidden knifes relic. shadowseers can cast smite + another mortal wound power each and shoot with grenade launchers. Combine this with a hemlock and that leadership starts dropping making It more likely for the grenades to add another few mortal wounds.
Khaine wrote: Banshees are.. bordering on okay now? The Exarch with piercing strike & Salamanders re-rolls gives them some decent damage impact
Okay is what they were, now they're pretty interesting and have actual variation on how to run them. I think Disarming Strike is where it is, but Piercing Strike, Shriek & -1 to hit/5+++ all have their uses. It depends on list and units fielded with them really.
I've been running a single msu in some lists, piercing strike does give them a nice bit of duality, I agree. (I run expert crafters too, which makes it much more viable).
Expert Crafters is only time I'd run it, since it gives some guarantee for at least one hit landing for that 3 damage. This is closest to Banshees being more annoying than just their regular thing; a single AM wheelrobot down is already good news for them.
So I played an ITC game last night and the list was a bit of a rush to make as I made it on the train to the game but I ended up winning and I'm taking it again as I thoroughly enjoyed how it played.
It's obviously not as optimised as it could be but thoughts on the list? I do want to try and slot another detachment in there somewhere as the -1CP for taking two exarch traits was a big deal in last night's game. There are definitely points that could be spent elsewhere but I don't know what to slot in to improve the list other than a cheap support weapon.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: What's going in the Wave Serpents? Obviously the Reapers want to start in one, but the second seems unnecessary.
Wave Serpents are either shot to pieces or are ignored, both of which are good for me. You're correct that the Reapers can start in one so they can't be shot at. The easy replacement for the extra one is a CHE but I don't have another one at present.
They're durable so don't give away points for ITC missions easily and if someone is going to shoot it I don't really care as the squishy parts of my army are protected.
Their size means they act as a good screen and if they're ignored they can front overwatch, charge tanks, and tie up shooty units. They're also really fast so recon is an easy 4 points for the game if they are ignored.
The serpent shield is also an excellent offensive tool for guaranteeing the death of low wound units or bracketing tanks to ensure kills.
Interesting, Wave Serpents are undoubtedly very good but I've never fielded them empty. My current list is very similar to yours except with only one serpent, 9 Spears, a Guardian bomb and no Hawks. I also have the only owning one Crimson Hunter problem. Do the Hawks help much?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Interesting, Wave Serpents are undoubtedly very good but I've never fielded them empty. My current list is very similar to yours except with only one serpent, 9 Spears, a Guardian bomb and no Hawks. I also have the only owning one Crimson Hunter problem. Do the Hawks help much?
The Hawks honestly aren't great and very dependent on the match up for them to be decent. I went for the 5+ mortal wound grenade pack trait and they didn't cause a single mortal wound the entire game. They've have been handy for contesting objectives, and being generally annoying so I guess for 68pts they're not the worst. I've been using them since PA came out and they're definitely a unit that could be replaced.
How do you find the Spears? They're a bit mixed in my limited usage of them although I am only running 5 of them. They're a big bullet magnet and they're pretty durable when the exarch is living.
EDIT: I've had a look at some of the Eldar SoCal lists and one that placed well used Hawks and they look like they could work pretty well with specific Craftworld traits.
Spears are absolute killing machines if you can get a full squad into range, but yeah bullet magnets. Going first and getting Protect off is very important, which makes them a bit swingy. I take a Spiritseer as warlord with the reroll psychic test trait to try and guarantee it goes off (82% chance I think). It leaves me with a very squishy warlord sadly.
I was keen on the idea of 5+ mortal wounds on the Swooping Hawks Grenades, but my experience was similar to yours when I tried them. Against Primaris marines their damage output is non-existent and there are other options for objective grabbing.
Thanks for the link. If suppressing fire is the one that reduces charge distances I do think that might be handy. They can screen out deepstriking assault units really well with that.
I've been giving the Sprirtseer the wing relic that lets him move 12" which helps. I also have a jetlock with Protect/Jinx and Ghostwalk as a backup to cast Protect if needed, but otherwise Jinx things.
I personally think the Suppressing Fire option is the way to go. They are incredibly cheap screening units, that can stop 1st turn charges, or, simply drop down onto objectives and remove chaff.
Brought the same list last night as I did on Monday and it performed well. I didn't face a very competitive Ork list so the result was a tabling on turn 3.
The Hawks didn't do much again unfortunately, maybe they're just good as a screen/objective grabber.
The Spears were incredible coupled with a Banshee mask Jet Autarch.
The Wave Serpents served their purpose of being overwatch bait too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking that as this is a tactics thread, there is no dedicated tactics for specific units, craftworlds and stratagems like there are for other armies on this board.
Would anyone like to join me in this endeavour and we can make a community project out of it?
Have you got scorpions to try rather than hawks? Little bit cheaper, tougher but without the redployment potential.
They're nothing special but 55 PTS isn't a lot for a 2+ in cover and the exarch can choose a -1 to hit in cover ability if I remember correctly.
I have a small squad of them so will likely give them a go at some point in the new year as I won't be playing many more games on the run up to Christmas.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Brought the same list last night as I did on Monday and it performed well. I didn't face a very competitive Ork list so the result was a tabling on turn 3.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking that as this is a tactics thread, there is no dedicated tactics for specific units, craftworlds and stratagems like there are for other armies on this board.
Would anyone like to join me in this endeavour and we can make a community project out of it?
What do you mean exactly?
Do you mean like a unit by unit breakdown ?
I should have been clearer sorry! I would like to make a unit by unit, strat by strat breakdown with synergies. Think 1d4chan tactics but with a little bit more seriousness to them.
I see. I really like the idea. And tis thread does provide that to an extent.
However there would be a problem of control.. Unless its run by an admin/limited privilege where only useful information gets filtered as a sub forum or a locked thread or something, it will end up just like what we already have now with this thread which is a hodge podge of information..
We have covered all the various units and tactics on their use extensively at one point on another. Its just buried...
As rules and updates come out, and new people join asking questions it turns into bit of an incoherent mess... I'm all up for an Eldar specific dedicated tactics forum/message board though for sure.
It doesn't have to be on dakka but dakka has a huge pool of players and users to draw on. Alternatively you could start a new thread and discuss things like when to sue certain strats, unit breakdowns etc from your POV. I'm all in..
But you will probably end up with a bunch of people saying that XYZ is not true because they are doing ABC.. An then people devolve into arguing minor mathammer differences in a vacuum and point efficiencies etc. But if you caveat it with a reasonable premise it could work.
Jeez that sounds rather depressing.. I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy! In my limited brain capacity I'm trying to be pragmatic/reslitic.
I think about now is a nice time to start such a write up, Eldar are unlikely to get any more significant rules for a while besides CA etc.
It would be nice to have something in this thread, conveniently we are up to page 150 so it would be a cool thing to direct people to the 'Unit tactic post on Pg150'.
The issue with this thread is that it is started by a guy who wanted to plug his own website as the tactica source, but then lost interest after a short time. We could petition a mod to change the thread title to include a reference to a unit breakdown post on this page or something.
If you wanna get it started I'm sure plenty of people will help submit unit entries. I'm a bit out of the current competitive meta loop having not played in a while but being a long time collector I do have some experience with some of the lesser known units which I'd be happy to put into words. Just be prepared to do a fair bit yourself of course if there aren't many contributors to start with.
I'd concentrate on synergies like you say, and avoid 'tier lists' and the like, they tend to be too subjective. Focus on 'how do we make each of these units work'
The idea could work if we start a new thread, everyone can post their 2ct, OP could gather everything in the first post and then delete the write up underneath (seeing as Mr. Tyranid Horde has a mod tag ).
I would chime in for sure!
Argive wrote:I see. I really like the idea. And tis thread does provide that to an extent.
However there would be a problem of control.. Unless its run by an admin/limited privilege where only useful information gets filtered as a sub forum or a locked thread or something, it will end up just like what we already have now with this thread which is a hodge podge of information..
We have covered all the various units and tactics on their use extensively at one point on another. Its just buried...
As rules and updates come out, and new people join asking questions it turns into bit of an incoherent mess... I'm all up for an Eldar specific dedicated tactics forum/message board though for sure.
It doesn't have to be on dakka but dakka has a huge pool of players and users to draw on. Alternatively you could start a new thread and discuss things like when to sue certain strats, unit breakdowns etc from your POV. I'm all in..
But you will probably end up with a bunch of people saying that XYZ is not true because they are doing ABC.. An then people devolve into arguing minor mathammer differences in a vacuum and point efficiencies etc. But if you caveat it with a reasonable premise it could work.
Jeez that sounds rather depressing.. I don't mean to be a Negative Nancy! In my limited brain capacity I'm trying to be pragmatic/reslitic.
Well this is the thing! We lose information as people discuss different things in this thread so it would be nice to have a central reference point which I may make a separate thread for and go from there.
You're quite right that there will be differing opinions on certain matters but if we were able to set up a peer review system we could keep things pretty objective for the main tactica while still maintaining opinions for the rest of the thread.
It's a big undertaking and it's good to be positive and negative
Spartacus wrote:I think about now is a nice time to start such a write up, Eldar are unlikely to get any more significant rules for a while besides CA etc.
It would be nice to have something in this thread, conveniently we are up to page 150 so it would be a cool thing to direct people to the 'Unit tactic post on Pg150'.
The issue with this thread is that it is started by a guy who wanted to plug his own website as the tactica source, but then lost interest after a short time. We could petition a mod to change the thread title to include a reference to a unit breakdown post on this page or something.
If you wanna get it started I'm sure plenty of people will help submit unit entries. I'm a bit out of the current competitive meta loop having not played in a while but being a long time collector I do have some experience with some of the lesser known units which I'd be happy to put into words. Just be prepared to do a fair bit yourself of course if there aren't many contributors to start with.
I'd concentrate on synergies like you say, and avoid 'tier lists' and the like, they tend to be too subjective. Focus on 'how do we make each of these units work'
Yeah I agree with you, as PA has just come out there are few places on the web to find updated information and with CA on the horizon we could have a v1 and a post-CA update in the new year or some such.
I do enjoy the competitive scene but there are regional differences in the meta (which is cool) so it's good to have a broad perspective. I'll be happy to do write ups on units along with others as we have a relatively small group posting on this topic.
I think we should have a tier list to extent but maintain it as a fairly loose one as they are subjective at the end of the day.
Cpt. Icanus wrote:The idea could work if we start a new thread, everyone can post their 2ct, OP could gather everything in the first post and then delete the write up underneath (seeing as Mr. Tyranid Horde has a mod tag ).
I would chime in for sure!
I like the idea of starting a new thread, it would keep things clean and we wouldn't have to chase mods to update the OP all the time (I'm not a mod ). Good to have you on board!
Waaaghbert wrote:I'd like that a lot! Not that I could contribute but I'd surely benefit from it
Maybe take a look at the Ork tactics thread (No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread).
Jidmah did an amazing job in the first post and always keeps it up to date!
Yeah Jidmah's tactica is a fantastic resource and it's definitely one of my sources of inspiration for this "project". I'm on this forum enough to where I think I could keep it updated with everyone's contributions.
Before I go about making a new thread, would anyone prefer it to be here or prefer it to be a fresh start?
Yeah I'm on board. With the number of point changes, FAQ, PR and exarch powers we are pretty much in new edition anyway in all but name. Might as well start fresh and with proper admin support keep OP up to date.
Might be worth waiting until CA though? I think that will bring some points changes which may well change our army composition. For example, If CHE gets a substantial hike up in points and other stuff drops, I think you will see very different armies and different tactics.
Worth discussing how we'd format it: Are we looking for unit by unit breakdown in a theoretical vacuum, or more in terms; of these are the detachments I use and this is how I use them. Also noteworthy distinction between ICT and non-ITC. I don't deal with magic boxes and ruins LOS and play with bigger terrain pieces for proper LOS blocking. Therefore my army compositions will be different from someone who plays exclusively ITC.
And here i thought the DCM tag were mods... you learn something everyday
Waiting for CA might be a good call. Then again it changes points only, if we don't go for a tier-list points shouldn't change the specifics of units, just their efficiency would have to be re-evaluated.
I won only because maelstrom draws were good to me and I absolutely run away with the points in the first 2-3 rounds. Round 4 My army was pretty much gone. The guy was playing to table rather than mission... However, dealing with all the 2+ 4++ was not rly doable.
He had a really hard-hitting mean army; bike squad, captain on bike, 2 FW dreads, 2 FW tanks, 1 FW transport tank thing. Troops with melta, and other stuff. Mostly FW units.
The heroes that pretty much carried the game for me were the Dark reapers. Managed to tuck them away behind a nice bit of LOS blocking terrain and they were going to town. The fire twice on AML is nice - (I did the strat to do D3 MW to finish of a bike which was holding up my lines and arguably won me the game..) Also didn't roll hot on my psychic dmg sadly. pretty much 1 MW per spell..
The rerolls on tempest shots are ace! Coupled with doom they did the business even on custodes. Before I found the tempest to be fairly ineffective against T5. But with the autarch support, All the single 3dmg shots were very reliable, re-rolled either 1's from autarch or from master crafters and then the wounds on high-value stuff..
The DA exarch were a nice little wound plinkers. They were mostly left alone due to other stuff being more threatening. The wraith lords also did the business but I found because they were rushing forward they hardly benefited from the cover trait as were usually within 12". Same with the wraithguard. I think it's useful for 1st round if you don't go first but loses its potency pretty quickly. I think in my next game I might drop the swords and go with BL/Scat on all the wraith lords. I'm determined to make the wraiths work
The list itself was pretty hodge-podge. I kind of worked with what I have. I normally paly around 1500pts.. The shadow weaver was just filer for example because I didn't have a 3rd wraith lord and I wanted to play dual battalion as I've finally got around to building and priming enough troops to field. I felt I needed a dual battalion because of the specialist detachment I wanted to try the strategems.. I burned through that CP pretty darn fast... 2 CP for a 4++ on a single WL or a 5 man guard unit is just too steep. In hindsight, I think I'd drop the guardian bomb because I just run out of CP for black guardians or celestial shield so they sort of melted away pretty quickly managed to shred one of his tanks. If going for wraith host kind of have to go all in due to the cost of the invuln strat. You're looking to do it at least twice I recon. So that's 4 cp for the strat plus 1 cp for the actual detachment...
All in all, really lovin master crafters. Wasn't too keen on the cover but it certainly proves useful in some spots.
I just played my mate's Custodes list too - lots of bikes and shield caps, DS allarus, sagitarum troops, the usual. I bring a lot of starcannons in my lists, so I burned him down by T4.
Wraithblades countercharging out of waveserpents saved my bacon - they hit so hard.
Expert crafters is doing amazing work for me, and I'm moving towards threat-saturation and lots of single units. Wraithseers, MSU Spears, Vibro cannons, they're all doing good work now. So despite my sniffiness about PA, it did bring MSU Spears up to viable, and did introduce a new way to play CWE, which is great news.
grouchoben wrote: I just played my mate's Custodes list too - lots of bikes and shield caps, DS allarus, sagitarum troops, the usual. I bring a lot of starcannons in my lists, so I burned him down by T4.
Wraithblades countercharging out of waveserpents saved my bacon - they hit so hard.
Expert crafters is doing amazing work for me, and I'm moving towards threat-saturation and lots of single units. Wraithseers, MSU Spears, Vibro cannons, they're all doing good work now. So despite my sniffiness about PA, it did bring MSU Spears up to viable and did introduce a new way to play CWE, which is great news.
Yeah, master crafters really breaks away from: Biggest possible blob of XYZ + guide + doom.
Not needing guide, and doom to some degree, frees up psychic support and points elsewhere potentially and really lends itself to trying new things. Storm guardians and A fusion is also pretty nifty I think.
I hope for a drop in heavy weapons costs/fusion. EML, in particular, would be really interesting if it was cheaper. Tbh any points drop would be handy on things like vyper..
karandrasss wrote: What's taking our flyers out of the sky? Why did flyer spam disappear?
its nu-marines sheer weight of dice and re-rolls per the intertubes, I suspect its a smidge chikken likken but from the (admittedly limited) reading I've done there seems be a intent at GW to smooth out minus to hit abilities (ofc if they'd done the sums to show how silly it is in a d6 games...)
still think it'll be a thing as for all the hype past 24" nu-marines output drops off
).