Shadenuat wrote:You don't need 30 Spiders. Around 15 is already ok to do what they do best - playing points, moving fast, finishing enemy units (which also can bring points, provided you know what you need to get points).
Tyranid Horde wrote:What's this about a Warp Spider spam list that I saw Argive on about in another thread here?
I don't have enough of them but I'm interested all the same.
I got a few questions for you regular players.
How necessary do you think Autarchs are at bigger games (around 2k), is it stupid not to run one? I'lll be running a battaltion plus 2 dethments, it takes you from 10 CP to basically 12 CP with a little luck. And whos running 2 Farseers, anyone? Doom is essential, but 4 must have powers aren't really a thing, compared to the price of warlocks and some pretty decent powers. I'm also thinking of running wave serpents with BL, along to with the Autharch (on a bike) 4's to hit, rr 1's isn't the worse. If not for the autharch it'd be 1 farseer and 3 warlocks.
I think autarchs can work well but their aura is quite small so will likely work best with deathbally armies or at least part of one. The nice thing with psykers is that they're more flexible in where they buff.
Two farseers isn't bad but it is pricey. But a buffer with guide and fortune can work well with something like a wraithknight or Scorpion while the other takes doom and executioner for offensive punch.
Going ulthwe to unlock eldrad is probably more efficient than two farseers though.
For a pure support unit I really enjoy the cheap 77pt autarch with Faolchu's Wing which helps it keep up with grav tanks.
I almost always take a doom/fortune bikeseer and a protect/jinx bikelock warlord with Seer of the Shifting Vector. Usually I can't think of a better relic to take on my third HQ. It always ends up being Faolchu's Wing on either a quicken footlock or foot autarch.
I like having a Biketarch. The larger base helps improve his buffing radius a bit. He is handy if you want to buff several squads whilst a Farseer with Guide is better for buffing one heavy firepower unit.
I often give mine a laser lance, Banshee Mask and Shimmerplume Helm. I find it makes him quite durable and can dish out some decent hits in combat or negate overwatch for other charging units. Add in lightning fast reflexes and he can be surprisingly difficult to hit in melee.
Today I ran 3 CHEs with the scorpion again. This time against 3 knights: a castellan, a gallant, and a crusader. They were accompanied by 50-60 guardsmen. I took Eldrad in place of the autarch this time since I thought I'd try for Guide instead of reroll 1s.
It worked out well. Vanguard strike deployment (the diagonal one). I castle everything in the corner as usual to exploit the scorp's 60" range. He gets T1 and fires everything at a CHE, taking it down to 3w. The gallant lumbers forward and can't quite make it into charge range.
I kill the gallant in my shooting phase, kill the castellan the next the turn, then somehow I fail most of my spells and fail to kill the crusader on T3. Crusader charges my bikelock, flubs all his stomps, somehow fails to scratch the warlock. Crusader gets vaporized by the scorpion pulsar T4. GG after that.
I'm pleasantly surprised at how well the scorpion performs. I thought it was a pretty casual "kinda throwing the game" sorta pick, but it's actually wrecking stuff hard. It also seems really hard to damage since it easily outranges all of the scary 48" guns in the enemy force.
Against real horde lists I think my setup will struggle, but if there's an enemy superheavy on the table, the scorpion can easily just carry the list to victory. I still don't think the unit is top tables competitive but it certainly seems like it'd function well in a gatekeeper list. It's certainly not as casual as I thought.
Kdash wrote:The problem I have with Warp Spiders and Scorpions alongside them, is that their “heavy” Aspect armour equates to a T3, 3+ save.
Sure, -2 to hit helps them, when they are more than 12” away, but their weapons are only a 12” range, so, you’re mainly just looking at a -1 to hit.
True but that's only fire returned from one unit. Also the point of them for me is to be an objective holder/board control unit. Their spinners are sadly very meh from an offensive standpoint so I would not expect them to shoot much anyway. And if they do the unit they land within 12" of will be pretty diminished to fire back and everything else will still be -2 base if you take them alitoic. I rate them based on recent use. Other peoples opinions will vary of course.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Now I came to elder for a tank army (I play tyranids and daemons, so I adore strong psychic powers but I wanted vehicles damn it!) but after reviewing and playing I have to admit my old Monster craze is slowly infecting me in the elder, and Wraithguard/blades and Wraithlords are beyond awesome models, so I have to ask you Dakka,
How would a Footdar list do with Avatar, Wraith constructs and then some faster elements (maybe some fliers or other movement shenanigans we're infamous for)? I'd be interested in trying it sometime!
Wraith constructs in a Footdar list are a bit odd, in that once you've exposed your Footdar, you're getting nothing out of your Wraith Constructs' durability. And the Avatar wants more bodies, not better ones.
If you have Fire Dragons next to Wraithguard, your Wraithguard are no better than Fire Dragons - as their toughness means nothing when they're not getting shot at.
If you have Banshees and Wraithguard, your Banshees will get shot up. And, if they somehow survive to engage, your Wraithguard won't keep up - so they can kill your Banshees in CC then handle your Wraithguard on it's own.
On the other hand, your wraith constructs can be exposed before your footdar engage - forcing your opponent to engage the tougher targets. And a Wraithlord near Platforms/Guardian backfielders/Reapers really changes the opponent's options.
Ah okay,so a lot of anti synergy but also an ability to pose awkward questions for my opponent. I'm going to have a think about it and see if i can come up with a cool list to run as an example!
Also in your opinion, how good are wraithblades? My issue against them is I love Wraithguard with D scythes FAR too much!
I really rate the blades personally, they have been a great workhorse for me in all of my games, rarely leave home without them. They are cheap for what you get and you can fit 6 or (5 with spirit seer + 1 more char) in a serpent which is nice. They will mince most other units in CC but they struggle against invulns and high toughness multi wound targets(str 6) and only -3 but 1 dmg. You do get a lot of attacks on the charge and with something like supreme disdain and enhance they become much better but still find them struggling sometimes. However they are great at chargine the line and are a pain to kill which can buy enough time for the rest of the army to score points and manoeuvre.
I haven't messed around with the axes too much I seem to lean towards the blades due to cost., I think a footslogging axes dropped from a web way and protect can be a vicious road block if you really need to hold the line.
As other have pointed out, the autarch can be used to great effect but you could as well make an army without one. I think he really comes into his own as a support rather than a beat stick. You can do some interesting combos with load outs and traits; Mark of hunter reaper launcher is solid, Falochus wing with fusion cheap mobile support, you can give puritanical leader to make him a mini avatar or natural leader if biel-tan to give free guide to a unit of shooty.
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slave.entity wrote: For a pure support unit I really enjoy the cheap 77pt autarch with Faolchu's Wing which helps it keep up with grav tanks.
I almost always take a doom/fortune bikeseer and a protect/jinx bikelock warlord with Seer of the Shifting Vector. Usually I can't think of a better relic to take on my third HQ. It always ends up being Faolchu's Wing on either a quicken footlock or foot autarch.
What other relics do you guys like?
I tend to go for falochus wing to make budget bike seer/lock/tarch.
Shiftshroud for a DS spirit seer along some wraithguard is also pretty neat.
Theres quite few decent relic combos. Experimenting with different lists is fun. However Im not sure How I'd feel about spending extra CP to have 2 relics.. Dual battalion gets annoyingly expensive fast :(
My favorite thing about the jetbike psyker over a Faolchu's Wing psyker is that Ride the Wind gives them a flat 6" advance so they have an effective 22" fly move, nearly double the range of wings.
Super useful for positioning them at exactly 18" away or exactly 24" away to doom/jinx a target from out of LOS.
slave.entity wrote: My favorite thing about the jetbike psyker over a Faolchu's Wing psyker is that Ride the Wind gives them a flat 6" advance so they have an effective 22" fly move, nearly double the range of wings.
Super useful for positioning them at exactly 18" away or exactly 24" away to doom/jinx a target from out of LOS.
Of course the biker is neat . But I think in order to maximise on all that movement you need some good forward screening that he can trail behind (spears/fliers)
I tend to use Eldrad screened by Guardians over a normal seer and pack a WS with blades and spirit seer. I find I am rarely out of 24" to doom/guide something I need to.
I don't use bikes or fliers so I don't need that much movement because I don't want my psykers to run out in front of a screen so that works for me.
Yeah, the bike psykers definitely require some solid screen and maybe some redundancy on important spells to fully exploit their ability to position aggressively. Love my wave serpents.
It sucks not being able to smite T1 but I've come to accept it as part of my game plan. I tend to castle up t1 for max re-rolls and then switch to aggressive manoeuvring.
I find the Autarch invaluable now in higher points games like 2000 points. You tend to get away with him not being in small point games as two psykers is stronger.
I like to take one as a JetTarch with MotIH and a reaper launcher for some additional character targeting. The weapon range means I can do some backfield support or send him further up with a banshee mask to prevent overwatch on some nasty units.
The CP regain is also a bonus, if he gets back at least one CP that's huge for me when I normally only have 9CP.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The CP regain is also a bonus, if he gets back at least one CP that's huge for me when I normally only have 9CP.
Agreed. CP regen on a 6 is not massively powerful but it is a handy bonus considering it comes bulit-in while many armies require a WL trait or artifact to get that ability.
I used to take fate reader in ulthwe detachment for extra farm to go with path of command. Don't think I only ever got like 1 CP back so I switched up my lists
CP regen is not something you build around any more, but rather take it if you can get it for free, which is something the Autarch gives.
Another thing to note is to not rely on the Autarch's CP regen. I've had a few situations recently with my Biel-Tan list that getting a big charge off is important with my Banshees to tie up or wrap a shooty unit and I need to save my CP for the court of the young king stratagem. I could spend CP in the shooting phase on something else and risk the regen paying off or I could be slightly less efficient in the shooting phase and guarantee the charge with the bonus of wrapping the unit getting charged. Fun mini-games I guess.
How many people here run a guardian bomb? a biketarch could be handy to get him close to that and act as a second guide. Its what I am thinking.
What do people think of Storm guardians, for a serpent tax they are cheap as chips. I thought they would be decent as a min squad with fusion guns, to pop out of a serpent and kill some MEQs deep strikers. but turns out they suck, can someone check my maths please.
10 Shurikens on GEQ 20*0.66= 13.2
13.2*0.16=2.1 (6's rend
13.2-2.1 =11.1(remainder wounds)
11.1*0.66= 7.3 (wounds)
7.3*0.66=4.8(failed saves)
4.8+2.1=6.9 (wounds inflicted on GEQ)
6 Shuiken pistol on MEQ 6*0.66=4
4*0.16=0.6 (6's rend)
3.4*0.5=1.7(wounds)
1.7*0.33=0.6 (failed saves)
0.6+0.6=1.2 (wounds inflicted on MEQ)
2 Fusion gun on MEQ 2*0.66=1.32(hits)
1.32*0.84=1.1(wounds)
1.1 (wounds)
1.2+1.1=2.3(total)
6 Shuirken Pistol on GEQ 6*0.66=4
4*0.16=0.6 (6's rend)
3.4*0.66=2.3(wounds)
2.3*0.50=1.2 (failed saves)
1.2+0.6=1.8 (wounds inflicted on GEQ)
(same math for fusion)
1.8+1.1=2.9 total wounds)
min guardian squad kills 3.9 MEQ and 6.9GEQ. While a Storm guardian squad(and 2 fusion guns) kills only 2.3MEQ and 2.9GEQ. they suck. If someone were to DS, near a few serpents with storm guardians, they might not even lose the squad in return. Normal guardians pose a decent return threat.
I'm sure yous all know this already, I;m just ranting lol. Gone are the glory days of dual flamer plus destructor in a squad, did anyone else used to run that? So many occasions I'd kill 90% of a squad and the lone member would turn around and tear them a new one.
Seems they are barely good enough as a 56pt serpent tax.
Storm Guardians just aren't worth it when compared to the potential of a Guardian bomb.
I like to run my battalions as Biel-Tan so they don't require the Autarch when the guardians bomb in or after the fact, I just need a doom and/or a jinx to go off on the unit I'm targeting to make them extra deadly. Their best tally was wiping a max squad of electro-priests that had deep struck the turn before and coupled with jinx they wiped the 20 man squad with the help of some supporting fire. 320pts got deleted before they really got to do much (they did kill a fire prism the turn they dropped in so they had 3++ saves).
I use Dire Avengers as my Serpent tax and they still put in a satisfactory amount of shots and can actually survive if I drop them off.
I'd say for a fairer comparison you have to do 12 storm guardians with chainswords Vs 10 defenders and give both units a round of shooting and melee to get a more rounded picture of the two units.
I suspect that the defenders will still come out on top of course but storm guardians aren't really a shooting unit.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I use Dire Avengers as my Serpent tax and they still put in a satisfactory amount of shots and can actually survive if I drop them off.
Agreed. MSU Avangers are only 55 points after Chapter Approved 2018. Against most targets, I think they will outperform 8 Storm Guardians and their 4+ save means that even 5 Avengers are not significantly easier to kill than 8 Guardians.
Plus I prefer my ObjSec Troops to be flitting around at 18" range rather than having to get in the enemy's face to cause damage.
I run 24 Storm Guardians in a lot of my Alaitoc lists. -1 to hit, 4++, immune to morale (Alaitoc trait) troops that are 6pts each, and can be buffed very well. They'll never output much damage but they are superb ground holders, bubblewrap, and if ignored can be buffed into quite a nasty unit against quite a few common profiles. Highly underrated unit imo, I'm honestly considering converting 24 more as a DS unit once the main squad is depleted.
grouchoben wrote: I run 24 Storm Guardians in a lot of my Alaitoc lists. -1 to hit, 4++, immune to morale (Alaitoc trait) troops that are 6pts each, and can be buffed very well. They'll never output much damage but they are superb ground holders, bubblewrap, and if ignored can be buffed into quite a nasty unit against quite a few common profiles. Highly underrated unit imo, I'm honestly considering converting 24 more as a DS unit once the main squad is depleted.
The only thing I can fault them is the fact you can only take 2 fusions. I would like to use them take 3/4 and used like fire dragons but better because you can give them an invuln without having to invest 175 points into asurmen.
I fail to see how Alaitoc storm guardians are good when they need to be within 12" of the unit they're attacking anyway so if you don't kill the unit they shoot/charge, they'll gun you down at normal BS. Would it not be prudent to stick them into a craftworld that would give them a real benefit and not just a situational one (fair enough if you're just camping them, then it doesn't matter)?
I'm finishing up my three squads of twelve storm guardians.
They were originally going to be corsairs before they got the final nail in their coffin. They're decidedly un wysywyg, combining mostly guardian and kabalite kits with other bits chucked on too. I run altansar so more piratey guardians seem appropriate to me.
I'm planning on running them in three stock wave serpents with a swooping hawk exarch to basically swamp the enemy screen and shut down as much enemy firepower as I can, especially with the serpents. I'll be using them as alaitoc for the fearless bubble on the autarch.
Not sure how effective this will be but should be fun to try at least.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I fail to see how Alaitoc storm guardians are good when they need to be within 12" of the unit they're attacking anyway so if you don't kill the unit they shoot/charge, they'll gun you down at normal BS. Would it not be prudent to stick them into a craftworld that would give them a real benefit and not just a situational one (fair enough if you're just camping them, then it doesn't matter)?
I think the idea is to not even bother trying to offensive with them since they hit like a wet paper towel. You just pay as few points as possible to fill Battalions and spend point on other things.
I've used them as an effective screen before. Deployed them right at my DZ with more important units just behind. I was able to move them up just far enough so that a 20man Death Company unit would not have been able to move over them, nor move their full 12". This saved a unit of Spears and 2 Prisms from eating it turn 1. Stormies died, but left the DC in the wind to feel the full furry of my army. So 48pts used wisely won that game for me. Because those DC would have easily eaten half my list
And Alaitoc is the best trait for any unit to live longer against shooting. Makes even Stormies annoying to remove
Tyranid Horde wrote: I fail to see how Alaitoc storm guardians are good when they need to be within 12" of the unit they're attacking anyway so if you don't kill the unit they shoot/charge, they'll gun you down at normal BS. Would it not be prudent to stick them into a craftworld that would give them a real benefit and not just a situational one (fair enough if you're just camping them, then it doesn't matter)?
I think the idea is to not even bother trying to offensive with them since they hit like a wet paper towel. You just pay as few points as possible to fill Battalions and spend point on other things.
I've used them as an effective screen before. Deployed them right at my DZ with more important units just behind.
I was able to move them up just far enough so that a 20man Death Company unit would not have been able to move over them, nor move their full 12". This saved a unit of Spears and 2 Prisms from eating it turn 1.
Stormies died, but left the DC in the wind to feel the full furry of my army. So 48pts used wisely won that game for me. Because those DC would have easily eaten half my list
And Alaitoc is the best trait for any unit to live longer against shooting. Makes even Stormies annoying to remove
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100% this. Storm Guardians are there for a cheap screen, extra CP and objective sitters alongside Rangers.
They are also decent units to put into Wave Serpents imo. Run the serpent up the table onto an objective, if it dies, you have an obsec unit now on the objective. If it doesn’t die, well, you still likely claim/contest the objective, and the following turn you can disembark.
For 48 points, you’re not really losing a lot by adding them in to do everything but be offensive.
According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.
According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.
They have to get there. A gentle wind will see them dead.
We have already some really good options for clearing screens. Scat bikes and Guardian bombs.
Those 32pts you've just spend on getting those extra 4 guardians is just a 24pt handicap you've put on yourself.
Stormies are really cool after price adjustments. Too bad they're so hard to collect and paint in big numbers. If there was a box for sale with 24 of them I'd buy it.
According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.
They have to get there. A gentle wind will see them dead.
We have already some really good options for clearing screens. Scat bikes and Guardian bombs.
Those 32pts you've just spend on getting those extra 4 guardians is just a 24pt handicap you've put on yourself.
I did say about putting them in wave serpents, which don't die to gentle winds.
Plus with the storm guardians and serpents combo you can shut down shooting units/disrupt enemy formations.
Guardian bombs are awesome but sometimes you may want to put other stuff in the webway/clouds.
Scat bikes are also great but need alaitoc to avoid dying to stiff breezes which renders them, usually, immobile or hitting on fours.
NexAddo wrote:
According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.
They have to get there. A gentle wind will see them dead.
We have already some really good options for clearing screens. Scat bikes and Guardian bombs.
Those 32pts you've just spend on getting those extra 4 guardians is just a 24pt handicap you've put on yourself.
I did say about putting them in wave serpents, which don't die to gentle winds.
Plus with the storm guardians and serpents combo you can shut down shooting units/disrupt enemy formations.
Guardian bombs are awesome but sometimes you may want to put other stuff in the webway/clouds.
Scat bikes are also great but need alaitoc to avoid dying to stiff breezes which renders them, usually, immobile or hitting on fours.
If you put them in a wave serpent. Then 8 is the same as 12....
Scat BIkes you run as SH. With massive move, good range and fire and fede you should be able to have them never be hit. If you vs someone like GSC, Daemons or Orks and they try Da Jump or DS then forewarn them back to the shadow realm.
Ok so I've got a hemlock and a crimson hunter exarch and want a 3rd flyer to make an airwing, what should I build it as?
I find the hemlock generally performs better, it's just more reliable, and even with a handful of wounds left it's still auto hitting. But I do face a lot of tanks and knights, and the hunter is cheaper of course.
Ok so I've got a hemlock and a crimson hunter exarch and want a 3rd flyer to make an airwing, what should I build it as?
I find the hemlock generally performs better, it's just more reliable, and even with a handful of wounds left it's still auto hitting. But I do face a lot of tanks and knights, and the hunter is cheaper of course.
Hemlocks are just awesome. If you have the points I'd grab a 2nd.
2 Hemlocks gives you a backup Jynx if one goes down which can be solid.
Another CHE with Starcannons are a solid cheaper option.
Hemlocks are only more killy against hard targets (T7/T8+) while unsupported. If you support with doom, starcannon CHE's are killier and SIGNIFICANTLY more durable.
In a competitive setting a single Hemlock is ideal, mainly for its long range jinx. Its damage is really just a bonus. Hemlocks aren't super reliable as damage dealers because getting within 16" makes them extremely vulnerable to flamers or smite or simply volume of fire (which will likely be in range to ignore their Alaitoc bonus).
For dealing sustained heavy damage, multiple Alaitoc starcannon CHE's are better because 36"-48" guns means they rarely need to expose themselves to enemy fire and almost never lose their Alaitoc bonus. Yes, doom is a requirement against T7 or T8+, but when you pull it off, 3 starcannon CHE's will easily 1-turn kill most vehicles from a safe (and practically untouchable) distance of 36" away. While 3 hemlocks can do roughly the same thing without doom, they cost significantly more points (150+?) and there is a decent chance that one will die in the process.
Yeh range is definitely a consideration, lost my hemlock to bolter fire last game, not before it had done some decent damage though!
My CHE currently has lances for anti tank but it is a bit swingy in terms damage with no psychic support. Might have to switch to starcannons then, that seems to be the most popular load out.
On a side note, I used a warp hunter for the first time last game, deployed via cloudstrike to get within 12" for the auto hitting mode, was really surprised with how effective it was.
I did save a reroll in case I rolled badly for the number of shots, but it one-shotted a tank commander and drew a lot of attention off everything else for the rest of the game.
Enjoy CHEs for another 5 months because there is no way that it's surviving a nerf at it's current 161pts. I expect it will increase at a minimum of 20pts.
bullyboy wrote: Enjoy CHEs for another 5 months because there is no way that it's surviving a nerf at it's current 161pts. I expect it will increase at a minimum of 20pts.
I do think you are right. I don't think it would be a bad thing if I'm honest. It is undercosted for what it delivers especially as alitoic making it an auto take.
I hope we will see some decent drops across the board though due to Ynarri shenanigans being a thing of the past.
Im mainly hopeful for warlock conclave going back to 30-35 pts and heavy weapons in general going down in price..
Yeah both of those would be nice, a small squad of 4 or so Warlocks could be a nice 'buff caster HQ' alternative to a Farseer if only they didn't cost so damn much.
Im hoping Phoenix lords get the same discount treatment as most other special characters in the game also, so they can pull their weight in a really cut-throat match instead of just being a flavour choice.
Some of the Aspects themselves are in a sorry state also, but I'm not sure any reasonable points cost reduction would save them. Just have to wait for next edition to get my Scorpions out again.
Are you forgetting their saves which make them distinctly not Cultists/IG?
The weakness to Eldar is that they're not durable and the aspect warrior equipment makes up for it.
I would like some points reductions now that Ynnari are all but dead (heh), but I can't see anything drastic because reducing the points along with other factions reductions just makes the game even more unwieldy.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Are you forgetting their saves which make them distinctly not Cultists/IG?
The weakness to Eldar is that they're not durable and the aspect warrior equipment makes up for it.
I would like some points reductions now that Ynnari are all but dead (heh), but I can't see anything drastic because reducing the points along with other factions reductions just makes the game even more unwieldy.
A Guardsman with a 4+ or 3+ save isn't worth triple the cost of the normal Guardsman though.
Even if they were as durable point-for-point as Guardsmen, some of the aspects don't have even nearly the amount of offensive output needed to justify their cost, and nowhere near as much as Guardsmen either for that matter. Striking Scorpions for example (an elite-slot close combat unit) have a grand total of 2 Str4 AP0 attacks each, as well as one mortal wound on a 6, for 13 points. That's pathetic. There's basically no way to justify that for the cost per model, even if you pile buffs onto them.
I agree with what your saying that reducing points drastically across the board is not good for the game and in this case it doesn't fit their fluff as elite warriors (Scorpions would need to be around 8-9 pts each to be decent IMO). But its likely the only option available to balance them from GW's point of view. I don't think they would bother re-writing datasheets for units for balance reasons. Otherwise Striking Scorpions sit on the shelf for a whole edition...
I'd argue that scorpions aren't bad at 11pts, not great either but deep striking onto an objective in cover gives them a 2+ save which is great against small arms fire. Also, whilst not game changing their pistols aren't bad and can do real damage against things like guard/gaunts.
kingheff wrote: I'd argue that scorpions aren't bad at 11pts, not great either but deep striking onto an objective in cover gives them a 2+ save which is great against small arms fire. Also, whilst not game changing their pistols aren't bad and can do real damage against things like guard/gaunts.
All I am going to say, to avoid a gak storm is that I honestly believe 11 point Scorpion is the fair price. They have good Str 4 attacks, decent pistols and MW generation inbuilt is nice! But certain other models being too cheap makes Scorpions look gak awful in comparison.
So here is a weird one that came up in my last game;
The heavy weapons platform is T3 W2 3+.
The Support Weapon is T5 W5 4+...
Why the 4+? It's a substantially heavier chunk of wraithbone than the 2W platform guardians use. and obviously a lot tougher. Seems like a bit of a GW blooper
Argive wrote: So here is a weird one that came up in my last game;
The heavy weapons platform is T3 W2 3+.
The Support Weapon is T5 W5 4+...
Why the 4+? It's a substantially heavier chunk of wraithbone than the 2W platform guardians use. and obviously a lot tougher. Seems like a bit of a GW blooper
I think the 4+ is due to the exposed guy shooting it? Im not sure. I know I prefer the T5 4+ to T3 3+ personally
Argive wrote: So here is a weird one that came up in my last game;
The heavy weapons platform is T3 W2 3+.
The Support Weapon is T5 W5 4+...
Why the 4+? It's a substantially heavier chunk of wraithbone than the 2W platform guardians use. and obviously a lot tougher. Seems like a bit of a GW blooper
To keep it relatively squishy. Going from T3 to T5 is a huuuuuuge defensive improvement in and of itself. Giving it a 2+ cover save while also watching small arms fire ping off on anything less than a 5 to wound would be crazy tough.
It makes sense from a game design perspective but I gotta agree with Argive here, fluff-wise it feels weird. Especially when you see the two models side by side. Everything about the support weapon says 'heavily armored'.
Yeah it doesn't really make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things,it just seems a bit off.
If it was a 3+ I think id field a lot more of them and maybe even drop some D cannons. I still think they are a great unit. 3 vibro cannons can win you the game due to stopping advancing and half-decent fire power.
Yeah I mean visually the support weapon platform is just a scaled up version of the heavy weapons platform. It's got larger and thicker plating in just about every way. Feels weird that armor goes down while every other stat goes up.
They are still solid units though. Shadow weavers and vibrocannons look like fun.
slave.entity wrote: Yeah I mean visually the support weapon platform is just a scaled up version of the heavy weapons platform. It's got larger and thicker plating in just about every way. Feels weird that armor goes down while every other stat goes up.
They are still solid units though. Shadow weavers and vibrocannons look like fun.
Durability isnt purely saves though. It's abstracted in mechanical rules through the Wounds, Toughness and Save characteristics. The combination of those makes the SWP substantially more durable than the HWP (while also not making Guardians not crazily resilient at the same time, nor fiddling with mixed unit toughness which is a bitch and a half in 8E).
I get that it looks beefier. It is. And its rules reflect it.
The overall durability being higher mathematically doesn't make it less weird that for some reason this giant turret with thicker, wider plates has weaker armor than its miniature cousin. Ideally fluff-to-game-design abstraction works at different levels, not just in terms of global mathematical averages but also in terms of direct stat-to-stat comparisons.
This is also assuming GW employs people that actually think about the rules like that. Since they just kind of arbitrarily assign points values based on biased observations of playtesting, I highly doubt they even noticed the difference in save. It's probably a goof up - or a holdover from a previous edition where they were both the same but one got changed to make it more appealing to players/buyers
It works, mechanically. You need the Guardian platform to be T3 to avoid needed special rules for mixed T, so it gets 2W and a 3+. The Support platform is bigger, so it gets T5 and 4W, but it's also Eldar, so it gets a 4+, similar to Windriders, War Walkers, etc.
The only unit I can think of with a 3+ save isn't either a Wraith-construct, Aspect warrior or Tank, is a Vyper. And you could explain that away as a speed bonus.
You could also think of it as the "pilot"/crew don't have good armour, so it drops it down to 4+ overall, whereas the Guardian platform is just the platform.
Kind of a reverse of the Marine Landspeeder NOT being Open-topped in prior editions because "the marine armour" of the pilots
Speaking of Platforms what is everyone's thoughts on the 3 guns it has available?
I'm VERY tempted to run 3 with web spinners as its 3D6str 6 shots with good potential rending, comes out fractionally cheaper than the Night Spinner whilst being tougher by virtue of being 3 separate targets. The reduced point of str and D1 instead of D2 is only a good thing in my view as it'll mainly be after the chaff units where D2 was overkill!
D-cannons seem great but accordingly expensive, and Vibro cannons... confuse me. I wish they coud ignore LoS or at least be assault.
Shadow Weavers are great back field holders and deepstrike blockers. They have the range, don't need los and their gun is good enough to clear screens or plink away the occasional wound on something bigger (moreso with doomand rolling 6s). They're a staple in my lists these days.
I didn't run vibros since the point drop as they don't fill a role in my army that isn't otherwise covered and i rate weavers more highly most of the time. Same goes for d-cannons, i can't make myself spend the points. While the gun is amazing, the range will likely make you move, which will likely make you miss, which will likely make me not like the unit
I like the d cannon on a wraithseer incomparable hunter, on the support platforms they can be great or they can be a real pain to use effectively.
If you've got big things coming at you, perfect, if they're trying to stay away, it's tough to get shots where you want them.
It's just a range problem, give them 36" and they'd be an auto include.
Night spinner Vs weavers is a toss up for me, spinners are faster and tougher, weavers are cheaper so can cover more ground, both are decent options.
Not tried the vibros yet, but I think they will always be decent but could be amazing against things like genestealers that need that advance, only caveat being that you need at least three of them to get the most out of them.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Speaking of Platforms what is everyone's thoughts on the 3 guns it has available?
I'm VERY tempted to run 3 with web spinners as its 3D6str 6 shots with good potential rending, comes out fractionally cheaper than the Night Spinner whilst being tougher by virtue of being 3 separate targets. The reduced point of str and D1 instead of D2 is only a good thing in my view as it'll mainly be after the chaff units where D2 was overkill!
D-cannons seem great but accordingly expensive, and Vibro cannons... confuse me. I wish they coud ignore LoS or at least be assault.
I run 6 shadow weavers and I really like them. In ITC it's great way of cleaning out infantry out of buildings. They are great at zoning out your backfield making it hard for you enemy to deep strike. They are also very effective against lite transports like venoms and starweavers. They are surprisingly durable.
Ran 3 shadow weavers at LVO earleir this year and they were outstanding. Often they plinked the last wound of a tough vehicle, so that I didn't have to waste firepower to finish it off. I played around with the idea of spinners, but ended up just making them prisms instead.
I am going to order the vibrocannons though, i just love the concept and need the extra D-Cannons for my Ynnari wraithseers.
Speculation question: The Space marine Raven guard tactic (which was basically Alaitoc before) will soon be change to the following: Units with this trait gains the benefit of Cover against attacks outside 12". In addition, NON-Vehicle units that are actually in cover are -1 to be hit. (paraphrased)
I think this is a decent change as it makes the -1 to be hit bonus more contingent on being in cover and therefore less passive. I also think it's safe to assume that Alpha Legion and Alaitoc will be FAQ'd to something very similar. If so, how would this affect CWE?
Flyers could no longer get the additional -1 (unless you use strats) is the big difference I can see, but interestingly, WKs would get the cover bonus and the -1 if in cover. In fact, if the wording on the trait is the same as RG, it wouldn't matter if the WK was 50% obscured because the RG trait just say "entirely in or wholly on a terrain feature" to gain the -1 I don't actually see Hemlock suffering from this as they would often need to be within 12" to be most effective, but they would get +1 armour for cove with this change
At least we can propose lists that don't use alaitoc without being laughed at! I think I'd be happy to see the change, it might keep our fliers from being nerfed and reduce the spam. They'd still be good without being cheesy.
Might make dakkaa wraithlords a decent option, especially as counters to melee threatened gunlines. Alaitoc reapers would be good options too.
Galef wrote: Speculation question: The Space marine Raven guard tactic (which was basically Alaitoc before) will soon be change to the following:
Units with this trait gains the benefit of Cover against attacks outside 12". In addition, NON-Vehicle units that are actually in cover are -1 to be hit. (paraphrased)
I think this is a decent change as it makes the -1 to be hit bonus more contingent on being in cover and therefore less passive. I also think it's safe to assume that Alpha Legion and Alaitoc will be FAQ'd to something very similar.
If so, how would this affect CWE?
Flyers could no longer get the additional -1 (unless you use strats) is the big difference I can see, but interestingly, WKs would get the cover bonus and the -1 if in cover. In fact, if the wording on the trait is the same as RG, it wouldn't matter if the WK was 50% obscured because the RG trait just say "entirely in or wholly on a terrain feature" to gain the -1
I don't actually see Hemlock suffering from this as they would often need to be within 12" to be most effective, but they would get +1 armour for cove with this change
Thoughts?
-
Almost certainly they'll get "Non-VEHICLE and non-MONSTER" units, not just non-VEHICLE. Since SM have no MONSTER units (outside of GMan, who's NOT Ravenguard).
kingheff wrote: Since the avatar is our only monster it's not too much of an issue.
Coulda sworn the Wraith-Nouns were Monsters, except the Guard.
Yes they are the new *raven guard* rule quickly boost our monsters if they aren't rewrited out, since now it requires just to be *within* terrain so all we need it's keep the models bases touching the terrain elements to get maximum advantage.
Also worth to notice war walkers, vypers, vaul's wrath would lose the bonus.
I think the IH tactics would be a good replacement for Iyanden…
But apart from that I think we need some point drops rather than rule nerfs, I mean changes.
Looked at all of it and the new toys and felt pretty jealous. *sigh*
Points drops doesn't solve the issue because points drops would be across the board.
I like the new rule tweak and if Alaitoc got that rule I'd be quite happy with it not being an auto-take anymore. -1 across the board is just too powerful.
I’ve just picked up 8 of the original Reaver Jetbikes on sprue for £25 on eBay, with the intention of filing off the spikes and adding spare guardian heads to make cheap Craftworld bikers. BUT can’t decide the flavor! In order of real-world cost, my thoughts are:
1) make ‘em scatter bikes with spare plastic scatter lasers I have from all the other vehicles I’ve pointedly NOT ARMED WITH SCATTER LASERS
1b) same - but with metal 2nd edition ones that I’ve picked up in previous fleabay purchases
2) arm them with Shuriken Cannons because I PLAY BIEL TAN DAMNIT (have 5 already, will need to source more from
Somewhere)
3) source the requisite bitz to convert them into Shining Spears. Don’t currently have either twin catapults or appropriate Lances, and would prefer some better heads than guardian ones too, BUT almost seems a shame not to use these unique models as Jousting Space Elves
I think you should look at some magnet options to have at least two load outs.
Scat lasers and dual cats sounds good seem like a sweet spot for me personally. I think shuri cannons are overcosted on bikes, but then on biel tan its not a bad shout.
For how game is now and staying the feth away from it I'd take scatterlasers probably. But honestly no reason not to use magnets since they're pretty easy to fit there.
I run my bikes in beil tan with scatter lasers but my bikes have support built around them (i take a farseer on bike warlord and give them autoguide, i find i can normally get them in position t1 to stay still so the-1 to hit doesnt come up much) but that requires building the list with them in mind. If you want them to be autonomous then beil tan shiriken cannons are definitely the way to go
Does anyone use the Phoenix Lords in competitive lists? Usually all I see are casters and autarchs. Is there some reason that we don't see the PLs?
I'm thinking of using Fuegan and Jan Zair to supplement my fire dragon and banshee contingents. Fuegan acts like an autarch for shooting purposes and JZ gives my banshees "always strikes first". These seem like worthwhile effects in addition to each model's own combat prowess.
Anyway just curious as to other peoples experiences.
I think the reason you dont see them often is that the aspects they help are not very point efficient(like fire dragons some would argue)
From a min max perspective they dont seem very good for their points and the buffs they give are not as good as the psychic or WL traits you can combo up with.
I like asurmen and am hoping to make some lists with him but he is 175 pts... i think our t3 1w infantry is just overcosted to work with (or not enough wounds or invulns but thats a different argument)
It's a shame about PLs. I think that they should be almost equal to or equal to Primachs. I mean, I know that SM are the posterchildren of GW but still...
Leo_the_Rat wrote: It's a shame about PLs. I think that they should be almost equal to or equal to Primachs. I mean, I know that SM are the posterchildren of GW but still...
Nah i don't think they should. Maybe in terms of number of attacks and their buffs, but, def not in terms of T and W's.
That said, i'd love for them to have a rule for their "back to life" ability. On a 2+, you can sacrifice 1 of the relevant Aspect Warrior models that is up to 3" away, and the PL comes back to life on Dx wounds.
In competitive Maugan Ra is used in herohammer lists alongside death jesters and the Yncarne. He's not there to support reapers. His main function in those lists is providing highly consistent long range support fire on an untargetable platform.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: It's a shame about PLs. I think that they should be almost equal to or equal to Primachs. I mean, I know that SM are the posterchildren of GW but still...
Nah i don't think they should. Maybe in terms of number of attacks and their buffs, but, def not in terms of T and W's.
That said, i'd love for them to have a rule for their "back to life" ability. On a 2+, you can sacrifice 1 of the relevant Aspect Warrior models that is up to 3" away, and the PL comes back to life on Dx wounds.
Developers meeting;
Boss man: Gime something cool and juicy... I'm thinking mythical creature based sci fi character whose immortal.
Intern: Like a phoenix...A phoenix rises from the ashes.. There are warlords.. In space... So a phoenix...whose also a lord... A Phoenix Lord!!! *Dum dum dum!!!!*
Boss Man: I love it! Print it stat Jimmy.
I think that would be a cool mechanic though. Or at least a similar Strat to the avatar which isn't 3CP. I think Jain Zair and banshees could be a gimmick. I have Jain already and her rules seem like fun. I know if I can get hold of 10 metal banshees in a good shape for a reasonable price I'd field them for sure. They sort of want to be Biel-tan for the court of young king strat which im sort struggling with.
The court of the young king is a fun strat with banshees just to get them into charge range, but once they're in they do very little with S3 weapons...
I have used it to some success to tie up units like telemons or the like but they were with barebones banshee squads and no Jain Zar.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Does anyone use the Phoenix Lords in competitive lists? Usually all I see are casters and autarchs. Is there some reason that we don't see the PLs?
I'm thinking of using Fuegan and Jan Zair to supplement my fire dragon and banshee contingents. Fuegan acts like an autarch for shooting purposes and JZ gives my banshees "always strikes first". These seem like worthwhile effects in addition to each model's own combat prowess.
Anyway just curious as to other peoples experiences.
I have found Maugan Ra to be quite useful. He has a certain varied utility that just helps. Even better if you are running Reapers as he can babysit them while doing damage on his own.
Asurman with empower has five attacks doing d3 mortals on 5+ wound rolls in addition to the normal damage so he's a great beatstick.
I'd like to try him in conjunction with some shining spears to give them an invulnerable in melee as well as against shooting, could be nice.
Jain zar could be a good addition with her -1 to hit debuff too.
kingheff wrote: Asurman with empower has five attacks doing d3 mortals on 5+ wound rolls in addition to the normal damage so he's a great beatstick.
I'd like to try him in conjunction with some shining spears to give them an invulnerable in melee as well as against shooting, could be nice.
Jain zar could be a good addition with her -1 to hit debuff too.
Asurman also gives Crimson Hunter's a 5++. I mean you'll rarely if ever have the flyers in range but it's pretty funny to me.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Does anyone use the Phoenix Lords in competitive lists? Usually all I see are casters and autarchs. Is there some reason that we don't see the PLs?
I'm thinking of using Fuegan and Jan Zair to supplement my fire dragon and banshee contingents. Fuegan acts like an autarch for shooting purposes and JZ gives my banshees "always strikes first". These seem like worthwhile effects in addition to each model's own combat prowess.
Anyway just curious as to other peoples experiences.
I have found Maugan Ra to be quite useful. He has a certain varied utility that just helps. Even better if you are running Reapers as he can babysit them while doing damage on his own.
100% Agreed. He clears chaff well, he can bully small enemy units that get into your back field, he can temporarily tie up units with no rend, he can go after characters with a decent chance of success -- he just adds a really versatile tool to the toolbox. Is he the best at any of these things? No. Does he do them all reasonably well? I think so.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: My FLGS is going to have a big sale soon. I was wondering what people consider as indespensible in a Craftworld army?
In other words if you were starting from scratch with a limited budget what would you buy for a good to very good competitive 2000 point army?
One problem is that while Eldar have always been competitive, the units that made them so changed with every edition/codex. What’s hot today is trash tomorrow. So if you are getting into eldar, I’d think about what draws you to the army and focus on that. Better to have a “meh” army with units you love, then win for ~2 years with stuff you are not fond of, just to have the meta shift and be stuck with a shelf full of stuff you don’t care about.
That said:
Look to see if you can split any of the bundle boxes (wake the dead, etc). Units might not be the best, but if you can stack a sale on the discount, that’s a win
Farseers and their psychic shenanigans have been a foundation for our army for a while now, and probably won’t stop as it’s core to our identity.
Wave Serpents. They generally make all our other tanks look crappy. What you fill them with shifts all the damn time, but they are a good investment.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was wondering what people consider as indespensible in a Craftworld army?
Farseer on foot (can go with Eldrad) and on a bike
Some warlocks/seers on foot and on bikes
Spiritseer
Autarch on bike (a foot one as well, but can use DA kit for this)
Troops to construct the core of the list: 2 guardian boxes (maybe somehow magnetise them to turn into assault guards if needed), 10-15 DAs, 15 Rangers
2+ Wave Serpents
2+ Flyer kits, magnetised
Top tier Farseers/warlocks (with or without bikes)
Autarch (with wings or bike)
Crimson Hunter Exarchs
Hemlocks
Wave Serpents
Eldrad Ulthran
Strong Crimson Hunters
Windriders
Shining Spears
Spiritseers
Warlock Conclaves
Night Spinner
Fire Prism
Dire Avengers/Guardians/Rangers
Dark Reapers
Yncarne (Ynnari technically, I know)
Maugan Ra
Solid Support Weapons
War Walkers
Wraithlords
Wraithguard
Fire Dragons
Vypers
Swooping Hawks
Avatar of Khaine
Dark Reapers haven't really fit well with competitive eldar lists in a while. Still good but yes replaced by night spinners and generally by more flyers in competitive games.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: My FLGS is going to have a big sale soon. I was wondering what people consider as indespensible in a Craftworld army?
In other words if you were starting from scratch with a limited budget what would you buy for a good to very good competitive 2000 point army?
As others have said, hqs are solid. Doomseer is a must (bike or eldrad). Avatar sucks.
Troops, guardians have good offensive power (when in range), but will get melted in return. Rangers less output but more survivable. Fire Avengers, sorta in the middle.
Wave serpents are amazing. Always have been.
Elites sorta suck, wraith units being the best of them.
Fast attack, jet bikes in any option are good, including spears. Vypers ,warp spiders, hawks wouldn't really be seen in a comparative list.
Heavies, spinners and fire prisms are good. Warwalkers and batteries a bit less good.
Flyer spam is what all the top lists do, personally looks boring to play, but it's what is best, saying that they should be hit by the nerf hammer next FAQ)CA. How hard nobody knows yet, they managed to be skipped in the last one.
Edit: so I watched a battle rep, where a marine lib had 5 powers (Inc smite) wtf... How do we not have strats that give us extra powers, it's my biggest issue atm...
karandrasss wrote: Any standouts at NOVA? Or still same old boring flyer spam?
Nothing concrete other than every faction will get some rules from the campaign books, and some new models for some factions (plastic banshees confirmed for CWE )
Unlikley any fixes possible without a new codex or at leats a big FAQ. Imo what could be achieve through the next CA is to drop some points for aspects, vypers, infantry etc. and just straight up making it so the -1 from alitoic does not stack with fliers. People would still take them, but I dont think they would be a must take they are now.
If you were forced by restrictions for an unusual tournament to use a Falcon (Serpents and Flyers not allowed), how would you equip it (assuming your army already has a good anti-infantry versus anti-tank balance)?
Cheap and simple at 125 points with Starcannon, Pulse Laser, Shuriken Catapults is what I am thinking, perhaps 130 with the addition of a Crystal Targeting Matrix.
If you were forced by restrictions for an unusual tournament to use a Falcon (Serpents and Flyers not allowed), how would you equip it (assuming your army already has a good anti-infantry versus anti-tank balance)?
Cheap and simple at 125 points with Starcannon, Pulse Laser, Shuriken Catapults is what I am thinking, perhaps 130 with the addition of a Crystal Targeting Matrix.
Your thoughts? Ideas?
V
From personal experience with similar restrictions I place on myself when I play against my sons' Marine lists, I prefer Double Shuricannons. Also comes in at 130pts and gives them some Dakka to lay down as they close to drop off cargo.
I find it works great when a Serpent isn't the appropriate choice (whether because of tourney restrictions or you want to tone down your list to have a better game against a weaker opponent)
My double shuri cannon serpent weighs in at 167 pts. That includes a 3rd shuri cannon as well as both engine mods. I just figure that if you're going to have assault weapons you may as well take full advantage of them.
If you were forced by restrictions for an unusual tournament to use a Falcon (Serpents and Flyers not allowed), how would you equip it (assuming your army already has a good anti-infantry versus anti-tank balance)?
Cheap and simple at 125 points with Starcannon, Pulse Laser, Shuriken Catapults is what I am thinking, perhaps 130 with the addition of a Crystal Targeting Matrix.
Your thoughts? Ideas?
V
I tend to fly my Falcons with brightlances. But then, I always seems to need a little more AV in my lists. YMMV
I like falcons with twin catapult, star cannon and CTM for 130pts. Stick 6 avengers with twin catapults on the exarch in each one for 188 PTS total. That can clear a squad of intercessors from an objective, hold it and then the falcon can move off or just use it's big guns from range. Three like this makes the basis of a nice mechanised infantry list.
I do think it would be good to move falcons into the transport section too. I do love falcons and run them often with decent success but then I mostly play pick up games at my local store so that makes it easier to get them to work.
A mate is doing an order from forge World, I'm thinking of getting some(2-3)warp hunters, are they any good? The flamer version is deadly and would support my aggressive play style., Other firing mode doesn't need LOS, i'd run them plus prisms as well. Down side being they cost closer to 180 an expensive option.
Reminds me I got my 2 hornets to build...
Cpt. Icanus wrote: We do have a strat that lets a farseer cast an additional power.
This would be the 2 we know plus smite though, right? While I'd want to know an extra power and happy to only be able to cast 2 of them.
Ah, then i misunderstood. True, a Farseer only knows two powers and i don't know a way to increase that. You could ofc pick Ulthwe and Eldrad, that's know three, cast three. Then again i often feel compelled to split Farseers by purpose. One offensive with doom and executioner and one defensive with fortune and guide.
Not worth the points i'm afraid. It might make adent in a jinxed Knight, but it'll die to any serious return. Go for a Warlock Conclave on bikes if you want a no AP melee deathstar, they can buff themselves at least. Not saying it's any good.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Not worth the points i'm afraid. It might make adent in a jinxed Knight, but it'll die to any serious return. Go for a Warlock Conclave on bikes if you want a no AP melee deathstar, they can buff themselves at least. Not saying it's any good.
Tyranid Horde wrote: For those who run Night Spinners, how many do people run? I'm usually running triple fire prisms but I could make space for a few spinners.
IMHO - Night Spinners as a concept is cool. Gamewise I have found them situational.
Give them the Skathach Wraitknight version of the cannon, and I would auto-include
Maxamato wrote: If you play Mechdar on a competitve level, what should be included (beside if serpents, of course)?
I can't say how competitive it would be in larger events, but I run 6 Serpents with CTM and 1-2 Autarchs. I also like Crimson Hunter Exarch in the list (2000 pts).
I am lacking indirect fire which I found is especially importantin ITC format. Need to solve that issue.
In competitive eldar, running an air wing of 3x crimson hunters exarchs is a must. Most lists can't hurt them and they are the ultimate tank hunters and character assassins. Even better if you can support them with a hemlock in a separate detachment.
I can't say how competitive it would be in larger events, but I run 6 Serpents with CTM and 1-2 Autarchs. I also like Crimson Hunter Exarch in the list (2000 pts).
I am lacking indirect fire which I found is especially importantin ITC format. Need to solve that issue.
Thanks.
But why CTM? Which Weapons do you have on the Serpents?
I like the list. It is a lot more fliers than I anticipated , but they are extremely useful. How do the non Exarch CH perform? I have never used them before.
Your fliers provide the additional weapon variations I put on my Wave Serpents. I run 2 x Twin Scatter Lasers, 2x Twin Brightlances, and 2 x Twin Starcanon. All with underslung Cannon and CTM. With their mobility, I can set up to shots offsetting the -1 to hit penalty with CTM.
I've run 4 fliers max in the past but started dialing them back a bit when my opponent managed to remove all my non fliers, thus me losing the game. I've been a bit hesitant to run four again, but admit it is still quite a powerful build.
I wish Asurman was a bit cheaper. I try to include him, but I end up with too little left to cut out of the list to drop.
True for Asurmen because I will get i.e. an additional CH or 3 WW with Scatlaser. It is a difficult decision.
Haven't played the CH yet but from paper he looks good. So, also not sure. I could/should also include two more Serpents?
I have run the serpents similar to your's and that was good but the idea here is always to advance to get the -2 to hit.
So, in theory, all my vehicles were to hit with -2.
Another topic:
Has anyone tryed out to run 3 WK with HWC?
I can't say how competitive it would be in larger events, but I run 6 Serpents with CTM and 1-2 Autarchs. I also like Crimson Hunter Exarch in the list (2000 pts).
I am lacking indirect fire which I found is especially importantin ITC format. Need to solve that issue.
Thanks.
But why CTM? Which Weapons do you have on the Serpents?
Asurmen is here to provide a bit CC power and of his 4++ bubble. But isn't mandatory because he is expensive.
Also not mandatory are the CH I guess?
What do you think?
Are you putting the dire avengers in the serpents and rushing them forward to capture objectives? That's the only reason I'd take triple shuricannon serpents over scatter. I prefer scatter serpents with twin shuriken catapults because they're a lot cheaper and do better against horde units with invulns like genestealers or daemons. I'm not really concerned with shooting wave serpents at power armor so scatter lasers lacking AP isn't an issue. Wave serpents are there to clear chaff so 12 shots with the budget serpents is better than 9 shots with the shuricannons. Against power armor the starcannons on the CHE's will suffice.
The Asurmen pick with max units of dire avengers is interesting, but even with the 4++ I don't think they have the durability to position aggressively. Competitive Alaitoc really wants to hang back and pick off key targets from afar using scatter lasers, pulse lasers, and starcannons before swooping in to score points in the late game. So your troops units will generally be playing a defensive role and avoiding LOS while camping nearby objectives. And since that's the case, Asurmen won't really help the survivability of dire avengers because imperial guard mortar teams have no AP anyway and that's the only thing that should ever be firing at your objective holders. Even if you can't keep your troops out of LOS, a competitive opponent will rarely need to fire high AP weapons at T3/4+ units to kill them. All eldar troops die to any amount of anti-horde, invuln or not, due to their low toughness.
The other issue I'm seeing with this list is a distinct lack of units with jinx. Jinx is an incredibly powerful spell, perhaps nearly as powerful as doom or death hex which are the two most powerful offensive spells in the game. Bringing down a knight from a 4++ to a 5++ or a unit of plaguebearers from a 5++ to a 6++ WILL win you games. I'd consider dropping the crimson hunters and bringing a hemlock and a warlock skyrunner for jinx redundancy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One additional point in favor of cheap scatter serpents over expensive shuricannon serpents: shuricannon serpents will almost certainly lose their Alaitoc bonus after they fire since they only have 24" range. There are TONS of scary enemy units that can cover that 12" distance in one turn and negate your Alaitoc trait which makes serpents SIGNIFICANTLY less durable and therefore significantly worse at performing their intended role of screening for your jetbike psykers.
Yeah, the idea was to “rush forward“ with the troops.
Regardeing Asurmen: I see your points there and it was also my concern.
Argh, true. Jinx is missing.
So, you mean drop Asurmen, the CH's and reduce the 10 DA to min sqaud? Instead I should include Hemlocks? Is one sufficent or should it be 3? Or would be multiple Skyrunner Warlocks enough?
One hemlock is sufficient since you can only cast jinx once. Competitive Alaitoc does not rely on hemlocks for damage because getting within 16" of an enemy unit to flame them with heavy d-scythes is often a death sentence for your fragile T6 3+ flyer with no Alaitoc bonus and no invuln.
Two units with jinx is plenty. Additional warlocks are of course always nice for conceal, protect, and quicken, but it might be tough to fit them in. With eldar psykers having redundancy on doom and redundancy on jinx is always a huge luxury because it allows you to position aggressively with one of your doomers/jinxers in the early game, and still have a backup doom/jinx in the late game.
EDIT: Yeah your new list is a LOT scarier. The CTMs on the serpents are perfect for the scatter lasers. You will shred their chaff and tanks from a nice, safe distance of 36" away while your opponent cries at not being able to hit anything in your army.
Jinx is also very important. Using Doom and Jinx is exceptional.
Remove Asurman and recommend a Skyrunner Warlock with Jinx.
You could split the DA squads to offer more objective camping and easier to stay out of LOS. Two squads can still start in a single Wave Serpent.
You are taking the -2 to be hit with your Wave Serpents when you advance , but they will also take a -1 to hit penalty as well. You may want to upgrade the Autarch to be a Skyrunner to assist with the Wave Serpents.
Left over points would be to upgrade CH to CHE. The reroll 1 to hit has been very important for me.
EDIT: I missed your updated list. I don't think you need the Warlock as you have the Warlock Skyrunner. I think one to two Wave Serpents should have Twin Brightlances.
Is the minus 1 to hit enough for the serpents? I have always the feeling that is too less but I have played alot if Fliers in the past.
Vectored engines only makes sense if you have a serpent full of fire dragons or wraithguard, because if you're advancing serpents to get them closer to the enemy, then they will for sure lose their Alaitoc bonus. So -1 to hit with the serpent shield is basically as good as it gets
3 CHEs with doom/jinx is enough to pop a disco lord in one turn, easily. I did it yesterday. PB spam is always tricky for eldar but the same rule applies, doom/jinx it, shoot everything at it, and it dies.
The idea is to stay as far away from the enemy as possible to maximize your Alaitoc buff and reduce their numbers before they close in and start assassinating your psykers. Once your psykers are dead, plaguebearers, leviathan dreads, and knights become a serious problem so protect your psykers at all costs.
Overall, I like the list, but I very much enjoy mechanized Craftworld armies. The War Walkers are a nice addition. I don't know your local area, but my experience is that I would need more than three troop choices to hold and contest objectives. That would be my only consideration.
I'm going to start 40k in a few days and was looking at what to buy first. I'm planning to spend around 200€ to start out, I was thinking about the Craftworlds army box, a box of guardians and rangers and a Warlock (is there any way to still get the model in the screenshot I have attached?) . Would this be decent to start out? Should give me around 1k points to start out and when I get used to the army hopefully the psychic awakening should have happened with some buffs to aspect warriors.
Amorphium wrote: I'm going to start 40k in a few days and was looking at what to buy first. I'm planning to spend around 200€ to start out, I was thinking about the Craftworlds army box, a box of guardians and rangers and a Warlock (is there any way to still get the model in the screenshot I have attached?) . Would this be decent to start out? Should give me around 1k points to start out and when I get used to the army hopefully the psychic awakening should have happened with some buffs to aspect warriors.
Hey man!
Welcome to the grind. Congratulations on picking an awesome army!
Are you referring to the start collecting box ? (the one with wraiths 5x 1x wraith lord 1x farseer 1x War walker?)
Its basically the start collecting box + with the wave serpent and guardians as extra. Not sure if they sell this where you are from though. The wave serpent is very good unit and will offer a lot of flexibility!
I would suggest getting a skyrunner version of seer/warlock as well. If you pin/magnetise the head you can run it as either a seer or warlock. This warlock is no longer available from GW shop. But they have a very similar sculpt on their store: The rangers are a good choice, but bear in mind they are sadly finecast. Metal one son ebay can be found but tend to be a little bit more pricey. But if you are not bothered go the finecast route.
I would recommend giving eBay a serious considerations. people often re-sell unwanted new boxes of models or kits still on sprues/older kits. It can be a real treasure trove and allows you $$$ to go a bit further.
Mechanized eldar is the only game in town for ITC.
You've got your mandatory air wing of crimson hunters exarchs, your core doom/jinx jetbike psykers, your minimum 3 squads of troops, and finally some amount of wave serpents/night spinners/hemlocks/normal crimson hunters to fill up the rest.
If you wanna get creative there are sometimes footdar-oriented builds involving a Yncarne, 2-3 death jesters, Maugan Ra, Eldrad Ulthran, and a battalion of shardnet wyches. But those lists are far more difficult to play and don't place nearly as highly as pure mechdar in ITC. 3 x 3 MSU tempest reapers still shows up sometimes but it's rare (which usually means, not great).
I have a CHE in the process of getting painted but it's not full assembled by a long shot so I was planning on going for 3 Fire Prisms, 3 Wave Serpents, jetseer support with a jetbike autarch as the core and filling things out from there.
I can't remember the last time I saw war walkers in a top placing ITC list. Profile-wise they are solid. But nothing in the eldar book beats an air wing of crimson hunter exarchs.
I've been playing the CHE air wing a lot recently and it's pretty apparent why they're so strong in ITC. The vast majority of units in 40k simply cannot interact with them, while they will just sit there at 36"-48" nuking hard targets in the early game and then flying behind enemy lines assassinating characters in the late game. Of the handful of units in the game that can actually threaten a CHE, the strongest weapons will be wasted on -3 to hit while the rest are wasted on -2 to hit. Each CHE easily tanks multiple knight crusaders worth of shooting.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I have a CHE in the process of getting painted but it's not full assembled by a long shot so I was planning on going for 3 Fire Prisms, 3 Wave Serpents, jetseer support with a jetbike autarch as the core and filling things out from there.
How do War Walkers do in ITC?
I'm used to play one squadron of 3, all starcannons. For just under 200 pts they are surprisingly resilient and versatile. Alaitoc and their forcefield can tank quite some hits and if your opponents tries to ignore them 12 starcannon shots can be very painful. Especially with some psi-support.
There are better units in our book but I still refuse to just triple crimson hunters/fire prisms/hemlocks and found that walkers can at least replace one of these slots. Have to admit, it's more for aesthetical than competitive reasons. My tradeoff to the hobby part of the game.
I wonder if cheap scatwalkers can be used to fill detachments, as a screening unit and a bait unit for enemy chargers. They're fairly cheap, have large bases and tougher than they look - that invul works even in CC. And even slightly faster than Sentinels for example.
I'm planning to run three as shuriken cannon walkers to benefit from the Biel-Tan army trait and they don't receive any penalties from moving/battle focusing around the place.
Dropping in behind objective camping units that are going for engineer is surely a good way to make them good distraction units?
After some heavy use in different roles i pretty much only use Warwalkers with Shuriken Cannons these days. They have a large footprint, huge move with advance and solid output. They are nasty enough to attract attention and sturdy enough to waste some firepower. They are also a prime choice for tagging things in melee you'd rather not habe shoot with good chances at surviving.
For ITC i can warmly recommend Suppoert Weapons with Spinners. They are cheap, take a lot of space in the backfield and contribute non-los chaff clearing or potshots against a doomed target.
Airwing is hard to beat, if you think that's too cheesy, don't play ITC on a more serious note three prisms can do work, too, given you can hide 2 out of los and shoot around corners with the strat. But fliers really are the strongest offensive option.
I personally also highly rate a squad of 20 Guardians from deepstrike, if you have a CP to spare.
Hi guys, long time forum lurker but new WH40k player here! (I used to play WHFB like 25 years ago, recently casual Infinity and hi level X-Wing)
My team has some 40k veteran players, they play purely monocodex mainly casual @home (but competitive attitude never die!!), and I'm going to join them with Eldar.
I own a Farseer Skyrunner, a Warlock, a Spirit Seer, a Visarch which I'm planning to use as Asurman/Autarch, the Avatar of Khaine, 2 Wave Serpents, 1 box of Dire Avengers, 2 box of Dark Reapers, 5 Wraithblades + 10 metal Wraithguards, 1 War Walker and 1 plastic + 2 metal Wraithlords.
This month I'll finish to build everything and to scrap the paint from metal models, I'm going to paint everything with a custom paint scheme.
I still have to buy 1 Dire Avengers and 1 Rangers box to fill up the troups slot, don't know whether to add a third Wave Serpent or an Hemlock/Crimson Fighter.
Any suggestion? Thx in advance
Thx for the hints!
Yeah I know both 'd be better but I'm slowing down a little bit, so I'll choose one for now (still to complete my troops tax and forgot to mention I'm working on 6 Shining Spears from various bits). They are playing 1000 to 1850, sometimes 1000+1000 vs 1000+1000 2v2.
Had my ITC game, faced a Tau Triptide list with a boat load of drones, 3 suit commanders and 3 fire blades. Was a tough list to come up against but the secondaries I picked let me rack up a good tally for butcher's bill and the speed of my army let me recon pretty reliably.
My first ITC game ended in a 20-20 draw, I made some blunders like leaving the Dark Reapers I brought out in some ruins so he could target them and picking headhunter as a secondary where I didn't kill a single character...
My list was a Biel-Tan Battalion and an Alaitoc Spearhead, maximising my shuriken fire but making sure my better units were harder to hit or cancelled out velocity trackers. No air wing hurt a lot as I would say it would have been a pretty easy game with those.
And speaking of which, with CA around the corner, do people reckon the CHE will be rising by quite a bit from it's current points? And at what point does that unit become too expensive and make the Hemlock worth taking instead?
They're perfectly fine without Alaitoc, just like the rest of the Codex. Also, I've seen plenty reports from ETC where Eldar flyers were absolutely wrecked or outplayed 20-0 by points since they're so anti-elite focused and cannot "hold the ground" so to speak.
Deepstriking a squad of 20 guardians and running three shurican Warwalkers is my typical answer to hordes. But i still run Shining Spears, they get along with all kinds of threats anyways i guess.
The issue I had with my blob of 20 Biel-Tan Guardians was that my opponent screened really well with drones and I couldn't get them down in a place of use.
The shuriken walkers however were very good and soaked up a lot of firepower before they went down.
How are Shining Spears run these days now that soulbursting them is out of the question? I have been converting 5 of them from some Dark Elves and I was thinking about upping that to a larger squad if they were good.
I run mine in a squad of 6, for a) i don't own more and i despise resin, and b) the smaller footprint makes it possible to hide them somewhat.
I try and buff them to 11 with conceal, protect and fortune, add Alaitoc and Lightning fast and they're pretty much immune to shooting. If all powers go off i place them in plain sight to draw fire. If not i hide them. Quicken goes a long way, too, but tends to leave them overextended on turn 2. Also i often dont find the points for yet another warlock. I often run a foot Autarch with faolchu's wing alongside them to deny overwatch and rr1s.
How do you deal with Grey Knights at 1000/1500 points?
Everyone says they are underperforming but they look scary looking at raw numbers.
My friend plays a Stormraven full of paladins (I think) and minimum a Dreadknight
Grey Knights are weak compared to most armies, Stormravens are nothing compared to crimson hunters, their infantry die like all marines do. The Dreadknight is the only saving grace of the book, and if you screen properlyaä and bring some decent firepower, it won't last.
Granted, at 1k points it might be hard to check all the boxes but your opponent has little stuff, too.
Park a unit of Dark Reapers near a Farseer on a large building with good los to hit deepstrikes with forewarned. They also chunk the raven. Against Striketeams and co, the usual amount of shuriken with a little pinch of doom and/ or jinx will do. For the backfield, get some Support Weapons to spread around.
Oh and, if you like your cheese, bring 2 CHE and a Hemlock.
The only time i had issues dealing with GK was when i didnt properly screen my backfield and got a ten man strike team with psibolt strat to the rear. Even that game i won, it was bust a little more of a struggle.
Shadenuat wrote: They're perfectly fine without Alaitoc, just like the rest of the Codex. Also, I've seen plenty reports from ETC where Eldar flyers were absolutely wrecked or outplayed 20-0 by points since they're so anti-elite focused and cannot "hold the ground" so to speak.
Doesn't matter, there is no way they will not be hit with the nerfbat this December. I'd expect an increase of at least 20pts for the Exarch.
Shadenuat wrote: It already is more expensive, and that would make Lance variant too expensive.
I guess this is what you get when you repeat same weapon options (i.e Starcannons) across multiple completely different units.
Well it's more of a side effect of 8th rules and datasheet.
In previous editions we only had the chance to turn a single CH per detachment into an Exarch on this edition they gave him his own Datasheets and we are allowed to field them individually as many asd we wish.
Just imagine that we are suddenly granted the ability to field nothing but Exarchs in aspects units, that would be broken as hell.
Tiberius501 wrote: I have a quick question; what are Vypers like these days? Seems like a shurikan cannon one could be quite good.
If Vypers treated Heavy weapons as Assault (like DE skimmers do) than they'd have a niche, but as it stands, WarWalkers are better.
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Pretty much. They are not exactly bad but WWs have a better loadout flexibility and a 5++. Vypers do have speed but that is not something the Eldar are lacking.
Tiberius501 wrote: I have a quick question; what are Vypers like these days? Seems like a shurikan cannon one could be quite good.
They're very effective in casual games (ie. they actually do useful things before dying). The 20" fly move gives them a lot of tactical utility and you can put scatter lasers on them to keep them safe from the vast majority of your opponent's guns. From your opponent's perspective it is almost never worth it to waste 36"+ heavy weapons shooting at vypers so if your opponent feels like wasting a turn mangling a light skimmer with some lascannons or butcher cannons, well, that's a win.
In the late game, T5/3+ means they can pretty much bully your opponent's MSU infantry objective holders without fear. The 20" move really comes into play late game once it's a bit safer for them to swoop in and clear dudes off points.
Have another game today, breaking out the fire dragons and swooping hawks for this ITC game to see how things go instead of bringing banshees.
Anyone been trying to utilise fire dragons at all recently? What load out should the Exarch have?
The last game I had with Hawks was fine but I don't think I used them to their full potential. Hoping to use them to clear some chaff when they deepstrike in.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Anyone been trying to utilise fire dragons at all recently? What load out should the Exarch have?
No special load obviously; 5-7 men in Wave Serpent. Use Matchless Agility and Fire and Fade. Don't expect it easy but it is better than being denied a deepstrike with two leftover infantry models placed randomly around unit you want to kill.
My beil-tan run a 6 man firedragon team in a wave serpent, 5 meltas and a flamer on the exarch. I find the flamer protects against overwatch some and 5 meltas should be enough to pop whatever I need dead.
Azuza001 wrote: My beil-tan run a 6 man firedragon team in a wave serpent, 5 meltas and a flamer on the exarch. I find the flamer protects against overwatch some and 5 meltas should be enough to pop whatever I need dead.
Agreed, and even with the Flamer, the Exarch can still use a melta bomb in a pinch.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Have another game today, breaking out the fire dragons and swooping hawks for this ITC game to see how things go instead of bringing banshees.
Anyone been trying to utilise fire dragons at all recently? What load out should the Exarch have?
The last game I had with Hawks was fine but I don't think I used them to their full potential. Hoping to use them to clear some chaff when they deepstrike in.
Caveat I have not run fire warriors but own some.
On paper hammer it seems to me that the flamer loos like no brainer for the points.. Having the extra 6" on the fusion/firepike seems pointless if all the other guys in his squad have 12"
At least with the flamer he can trouble time as an infantry killer option and ablative wound sacrifice so maybe one or two fusions will survive.
Flamer is fairly pointless - you're losing an accurate shot from Exarch (who can re-roll 1's to hit and 1's to wound against vehicles and monsters - pointless with Flamer as well); meltabomb is 4", any decent opponent won't allow you to move so close. And don't expect FDs to live more than a single turn. That's why using 5 is a good idea since losing just 120 pts is not as big of a deal and you get 6W for price of 5W.
If you want to utterly minmax, the flamer and extra model are a handicap. If you got some odd 20 points left and nowhere else to put them... i'd still rather get another fusion gun
Yeah, FDs share the bullet magnet role with Shining Spears in the Codex and prize for who dies first. It's preferable to take 1st turn and disembark on 2d turn, as you have good chances to survive one turn of shooting in WS. That's why people prefer Reapers, CH and Prisms really.
The Hawks should be used in small units of 5 and stay away. Usually opponents don't target them right away.
Morale, Alaitoc has all the answers. But buffed and with tanking hits on platform they don't die THAT easily. Sounds like your opponent was just better and did well with target priority.
He definitely a better list for a start, triptides and triple commanders that I couldn't deal with because they're characters. Velocity trackers weren't fun to deal with either.
The Guardians died because he sank most of his army's shooting into them and still didn't get them all. They don't benefit from Alaitoc when they're bombing in to kill a unit with their 12 inch range.
My list:
Biel-Tan Battalion
Farseer w/ guide and doom
Warlock w/ jinx/protect
20 guardians w/ 2x shuriken cannons
2x 5 man avenger squads
3 shuriken war walkers
Alaitoc Spearhead
Jetbike Autarch w/ Mark, Banshee mask, reaper launcher, shimmerplume and power sword
Warlock w/ quicken
5 rangers
5 fire dragons
5 swooping hawks
3x scatter laser, ctm wave serpents (these were a test to see if they performed better than shuriken cannon serpents)
3x fire prisms
Obviously not super competitive without flyers and reapers but it's pretty durable. By the end he had no drones, 1 riptide and 2 commanders with some fireblades and I had 2 fire prisms with a farseer. I failed a lot of psychic tests despite rerolls. I think I played pretty well despite the loss, I maxed out my secondaries bar one point in marked for death.
What do people do with their Guardian bombs? Drop them asap or wait until turn 3 when screening isn't as impactful?
I don't like Guardians that much - they're good in a defensive list, not as much in offensive one (also I hate painting infantry); and if you're using one blob, I'd say add another one then. Two blobs with Jinx etc. is a lot more firepower. Piloting them takes some getting used to.
Also, for an Eldar list, you're lacking in Smites. You only have 1 Farseer and 2 Warlocks, don't have an Executioner. With 2-3 more MW powers you will have more power to mop up difficult units.
Aside from that, fact that you did so well, with Biel-Tan even, means there's nothing terribly wrong with your list.
Drop them asap or wait until turn 3
Depends on the matchup and what is your opponent doing. Getting all the infantry out right away can mean you won't even have any leftovers later to put on objectives.
I find Guardian bombs and their effectiveness to be pretty dependent on match-ups (like anything else) and I found it difficult to get good targets against his list. It can feel a bit pointless going for riptides when he can pass off wounds and when targeting the drones, their 5+ FNP among other buffs hurts a lot.
I chose Biel-Tan as a cheap CP battery and I can deepstrike units places where I might not be in range to buff them so hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s is something I like on walkers and guardians.
I see what you mean by the lack of smites. Usually I run a farseer and a spiritseer but I think the dragons and hawks could go in place of more psychic support and offense.
It's not the worst trade when you think about it - for every wound transfered they lose a drone on a 5+, which is a 10 ppm model. If you try to kill them with say, scatbikes they roll 4+ and 5+++. And then they lose a bit of wounds through the game on the reactors.
Considered moving the guardians down to alitoic and the rangers up to bieltan?
The idea is you would drop them within 6" of the Autarch.
With thepuritanical leader trait that would make them fearless -1 to hit, reroll 1s anyway and you can always drop celestial shield to really make the opponent sink shots into them.
Guardians can be flimsy but as ever the Elf book of dern derty derp helps, throwing Protect on them gives the Platforms a 2+ that'll soak a lot of small arms, plus the 4++ strat means they'll either get left alone or become massive bullet magnets for a turn, either way is a win as it means your other glitter and tissue paper elfs aren't being shot at. or you've got a lot of shurikens to offload next turn
Guardian bomb is a staple in my lists. I rarely hold them off past turn2, most of the time i want some thing dead and that large footprint to keep my opponent honest. If it wasn't a chore to paint i'd think of another 20.
If there's no chaff to clean i drop them on a doom/jinx target. They finished t8/3+ units more than once.
You can also get pretty creative in spreading them out for different targets, with pmatforms and the guardians firing them gibing leeway with the 12" range. (For example to get at two spread out drone squads)
I have not been able to game much this year, but will get the opportunity to play in a local tourney today using ITC. I don't think the list is overly competitive, but I enjoy the aesthetics of Craftworld vehicles. Realistically, I expect a 1-2, but I'm learning Craftworlds armies are very rare these days in my local area.
I suspect there will be a points bump but will Hemlocks remain the same ? depends on how GW feels about chancing it on the sales of Nightwings (not quite as good as CHE but cheaper in points but twice the munnys !)
Sarigar wrote: I have not been able to game much this year, but will get the opportunity to play in a local tourney today using ITC. I don't think the list is overly competitive, but I enjoy the aesthetics of Craftworld vehicles. Realistically, I expect a 1-2, but I'm learning Craftworlds armies are very rare these days in my local area.
1 × Battalion (Alaitoc)
2 x 1 Autarch Skyrunner, Twin Catapult, Power Sword (101 each, 202)
1 x 1 Farseer, Singing Spear, Executioner WC7, Doom WC7 (115)
2 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult (58 each, 116)
2 x 5 Rangers (60 each, 120)
1 x 5 Swooping Hawks, 5 Lasblasters, 1 Power Sword (69)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (169 each, 338)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (157 each, 314)
1 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Brightlances, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (185)
1 x Airwing (Alaitoc)
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Hvy D-scythe, SS, Jinx WC7 (210)
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 x Starcanons, Pulse Laser (161)
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 x Starcannons, Pulse Laser (161)
I would suggest swapping the power swords on the autarchs for lances, Drop the BL & CTM for just shuri cannons or scat lazors on the serpents. and take 3 squads of rangers dropping the DA
With the points saved I think you might be able able to take a unit of reapers with tempest launcher.
Fusion guns/fusion pistols on biketarchs have been cheap, popular, and effective lately. Also don't forget to take banshee masks on your autarchs. They are stupid good, and free.
Since we're on the subject of DS bombs, I have a math question.
10 Wraithblades dropping from deepstrike in a wraithhost detachment are pretty scary, putting out 50 attacks (increasing to an average of 66 with the enhance/disdain combo) and can combo to get a very nice charge going, like so:
Spiritseer with specialist trait allows reroll all.
Wraithseer in the same detachment casts enliven on a WC of 6.
The bomb is now rolling three dice, and can reroll all or one of them for a cp. What's the actual percentage chance of getting that charge off on a 9"? I'm guessing it's something like 75%, as it's been very effective for me, but I'd love someone to be able to confirm/disconfirm it for me.
(Wraithseers are pretty great in a wraithhost too, as they can sub out one of their underwhelming powers for twilight gloom, giving that big blob, or themselves, a 2+ base save. I like to run two.)
I appreciate the input. Ended up 1--1-1. I have played a total of 8 games this year, so a it was knocking off a lot of to rust. If I played a bit quicker in my first game, it would have been a win instead of a 21-20 loss. But, happy to be rolling dice afain.
A couple points: Army is WYSIWYG and painted, so no real ability to hot swap chunks of the armament. I wanted to run a mechanized army, and this fit. I will concur that Scatter Lasers were not very good, but not really able to rip apart the turret to swap.
Guessing banshees (maybe all aspects) might get a points drop in CA19. And most likely the flyer nerf.
It'd be nice if they really mixed things up a bits but guess we'll wait and see.
I'm also hoping scorpions came out in plastic, those models are amazing and remind me of predators (just don't mention the 2018 movie please)
Link.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/
Sarigar wrote: I appreciate the input. Ended up 1--1-1. I have played a total of 8 games this year, so a it was knocking off a lot of to rust. If I played a bit quicker in my first game, it would have been a win instead of a 21-20 loss. But, happy to be rolling dice afain.
A couple points: Army is WYSIWYG and painted, so no real ability to hot swap chunks of the armament. I wanted to run a mechanized army, and this fit. I will concur that Scatter Lasers were not very good, but not really able to rip apart the turret to swap.
I undetstand. I tend to magnetize everything I posdibly can. Serpent turrets are dead easy to do in case you are building more
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grouchoben wrote: Since we're on the subject of DS bombs, I have a math question.
10 Wraithblades dropping from deepstrike in a wraithhost detachment are pretty scary, putting out 50 attacks (increasing to an average of 66 with the enhance/disdain combo) and can combo to get a very nice charge going, like so:
Spiritseer with specialist trait allows reroll all.
Wraithseer in the same detachment casts enliven on a WC of 6.
The bomb is now rolling three dice, and can reroll all or one of them for a cp. What's the actual percentage chance of getting that charge off on a 9"? I'm guessing it's something like 75%, as it's been very effective for me, but I'd love someone to be able to confirm/disconfirm it for me.
(Wraithseers are pretty great in a wraithhost too, as they can sub out one of their underwhelming powers for twilight gloom, giving that big blob, or themselves, a 2+ base save. I like to run two.)
Big fan of wraiths. But think the spirit host detatchement is a bit of a red herring as the invuln transfer has to be done at the start of the tilurn/move phase so if you ds wraiths in they have to take a round of shooting to the face before you get a chance for invulns. With the 9" charge its not reliable enough to ds blades..I prefer smaller squads in wave serpents. Or a big blob of guard with cannons so at least you get s round of shooting and can alpha a big target.
There are lots of cool ways wraiths can be used so if it works in your list it works for you and thats all that matters. Sadly 1dmg on the blades and low strenght means they are good anti elite infantry but found they really strugle vs invuln chars.. axes seem like the better choice but get pricy. I love the wraiths as there isint just one most efficent set up and they are a very versetile kit and unit.
Thanks Argive, I've been playing that wrong. Lucky I'm still at baby steps with my Eldar army! I still like the 3d6, pick the highest on their charge but I think you might be right about delivery. Will try using axes for a change, I have them all magnetised after all...
You know what I recently watched a bat rep which covered end of turn activations and I think I might have made a mistake there and you are right...
2CP: Spirit Shield. Use this stratagem at the end of your movement phase. Pick a Wraith Host Wraith Construct unit from your army within 6" of a Wraith Host Spiritseer. Until the start of your next turn, the Wraith Construct unit gains a 4+ invulnerable save but the Spiritseer loses the 4+ invulnerable save usually granted by its Rune Armor.
Webway strike DS is also activated at the end of your movement phase. I believe the activation sequence allows you to apply multiple effects at the end of the turn if multiple things are happening as the controlling player you choose which happens in what order according to a recent bat rep I watched. Im going to post up in you make da call and get a clarification. I think there might have been an FAQ regarding this.
That's right actually, as active player you decide the order, so my bladebomb is back on the menu! Stack them on a doomed target and that target is dead, knight to not.
Again, if anyone's savvy with math hammer, I'd really appreciate the odds on 3d6 picking the highest with reroll 1 or all dice.
3d6 pick highest rerolling *all* dice (pick up and reroll *all three dice each time*, let me know if I misinterpreted this):
77.3% pass
22.7% fail
Each outcome is based on 1 million trial runs, so they should be very close to the exact values. I reran each variant a few times, the results are consistent.
Wow that's amazing Shorty, youre an absolute legend, thanks! As i suspected the full buffs give you a very decent chance of making that all-important charge out of DS. Had my blade bomb overkill a knight by about 8 damage in one round in my last game. I think the build has real legs...
grouchoben wrote: That's right actually, as active player you decide the order, so my bladebomb is back on the menu! Stack them on a doomed target and that target is dead, knight to not.
Again, if anyone's savvy with math hammer, I'd really appreciate the odds on 3d6 picking the highest with reroll 1 or all dice.
What are the thoughts on fire dragons now that SM seem to be taking over the meta. If Iron Hands really take hold will it be worthwhile to run a full squad and put them in the webway or in a wave serpent to deal with all those tough vehicles? Or are they still too expensive for what they do?
cag6464 wrote: What are the thoughts on fire dragons now that SM seem to be taking over the meta. If Iron Hands really take hold will it be worthwhile to run a full squad and put them in the webway or in a wave serpent to deal with all those tough vehicles? Or are they still too expensive for what they do?
I generally prefer Wraithguard to Fire Dragons. The Damage output is slightly better against T8 targets (although Dragons still get an edge at <6". Wraithguard cost more but are far more durable with 3 T6 wounds each. This means that they stand a decent chance of surviving long enough to shoot a second time (or at the very least force your opponent to dedicate serious firepower to deleting them). Also, if they get assaulted, they can withdraw and still shoot (unlike Dragons). Wraithguard do everything Dragons do but are likely to live long enough to do it again.
That's why DS is essential on them imo. You want to be stacking all the buffs you can on them to make them a real force, which lends credence to 10-wraith squads. It's quite possible to buff them to the point where they're 2+/3++/5+++ (two casts and one strat: Fortune, Protect & Spirit Shield).
grouchoben wrote: That's why DS is essential on them imo. You want to be stacking all the buffs you can on them to make them a real force, which lends credence to 10-wraith squads. It's quite possible to buff them to the point where they're 2+/3++/5+++ (two casts and one strat: Fortune, Protect & Spirit Shield).
I've been running 6 man squads of blades and d scythes out of serpents and its pretty good. Enhance and supreme disdain on a unit of 6 blades is hella fun!
I dont like the fact that we have to say that "if you apply xx+xx+xx buffs this unit is really good.. If I had a £1 for every time my psychic failed me id have a new cobra tank by now!
Argive wrote: I dont like the fact that we have to say that "if you apply xx+xx+xx buffs this unit is really good.. If I had a £1 for every time my psychic failed me id have a new cobra tank by now!
This has been a constant for Eldar for years. 6th and 7th were probably the exception... but traditionally we need psychic buff to be outstanding.
That's part of why Eldar are so much fun to play though. You can make almost any unit good by stacking a bunch of buffs on them.
Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game. But ever since I started running it with a proper build based on maximizing durability and threat saturation I've been smashing up semi-competitive and competitive lists all around me for the past few months with ease.
Kind of on the same topic, I've been trying to run a footdar list and can't decide on a designated anti-tank unit, would 5 swooping hawks and 5 fire dragons be better than just flat 6 dark reapers?
(5 hawks to even out the points and to clear chaff for DSing Fire dragons)
It's a 1000 pt footdar list, that's why the numbers are so small XD
Fire dragons in a star/vectored engines serpent would be better since you want something to bring them within 6" to get the extra damage. Otherwise 6 dark reapers is probably bettter. Five swooping hawks aren't going to clear chaff in useful numbers. That's not really what hawks are for.
slave.entity wrote: Fire dragons in a star/vectored engines serpent would be better since you want something to bring them within 6" to get the extra damage. Otherwise 6 dark reapers is probably bettter. Five swooping hawks aren't going to clear chaff in useful numbers. That's not really what hawks are for.
Yeah I know as thinking of doing that but I wanted to make my list all infantry (and some support platforms) so I was looking for options there. I don't have dark reapers but I do agree that they are the better option here
Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game
I've been running my Scorpion will hilarious success. Going up against Imperium Soup lists with a Single Knight is almost GG from turn 1
Yeah I've been finding any armor-based list has very little chance against a buffed scorpion. I've played against triple knights a few times and my list generally kills a knight a turn. FW dreads, knights, orions, whatever. If it doesn't include a component involving resilient hordes, it's probably GG. The scorpion might be the ultimate superheavy tank in 8th edition. All thanks to the psychic phase.
I've yet to play against Iron Hands though. Curious whether or not a scorpion and 3 crimson hunter exarchs can kill an IH leviathan in one round.
Yeah I've been finding any armor-based list has very little chance against a buffed scorpion. I've played against triple knights a few times and my list generally kills a knight a turn. FW dreads, knights, orions, whatever. If it doesn't include a component involving resilient hordes, it's probably GG. The scorpion might be the ultimate superheavy tank in 8th edition. All thanks to the psychic phase.
I've yet to play against Iron Hands though. Curious whether or not a scorpion and 3 crimson hunter exarchs can kill an IH leviathan in one round.
When do they have to play the half damage stratagem? Start of shooting phase, when their unit is declared, or when weapons are assigned?
You can catch some people out by targeting two units one with your scatter laser and the other with your big gun.
Argive wrote: I dont like the fact that we have to say that "if you apply xx+xx+xx buffs this unit is really good.. If I had a £1 for every time my psychic failed me id have a new cobra tank by now!
This has been a constant for Eldar for years. 6th and 7th were probably the exception... but traditionally we need psychic buff to be outstanding.
slave.entity wrote:That's part of why Eldar are so much fun to play though. You can make almost any unit good by stacking a bunch of buffs on them.
Everyone on the internet told me that running a scorpion grav-tank is like intentionally throwing the game. But ever since I started running it with a proper build based on maximizing durability and threat saturation I've been smashing up semi-competitive and competitive lists all around me for the past few months with ease.
I get that our psychic is our might. But with limited powers you can bring with everything being so up in points, I find I am making very one trick pony lists... I.E. big blob of wraiths built for CC so needs their enhance/enrevate. and a dedicated spirit seer Or Big Blob of shining spears/warlock conclave needs all of the buffs. Just feels like leaning towards deathstar lists with fliers to maximise that efficiency because points ya know ?
At leats 1/2 farseers with Guide/doom for redundancy is an auto take. Always.
Maybe I'm just having a bad day and im salty the warlock powers are limited to infantry and bikes and the WL is a bit sucky despite being the most awesome model kit we have lol. And then you see the SM books and supplements and youre like oh...
Page 179 – Choose Ranged Weapons Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the shooting unit’s attacks, you must declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots; then resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.’
It has been maybe 2 years since this was added to not allow tagging Knights with bolter and then shoot lascannon into second Knight.
I get that our psychic is our might.
But with limited powers you can bring with everything being so up in points, I find I am making very one trick pony lists... I.E. big blob of wraiths built for CC so needs their enhance/enrevate. and a dedicated spirit seer Or Big Blob of shining spears/warlock conclave needs all of the buffs. Just feels like leaning towards deathstar lists with fliers to maximise that efficiency because points ya know ?
At leats 1/2 farseers with Guide/doom for redundancy is an auto take. Always.
Maybe I'm just having a bad day and im salty the warlock powers are limited to infantry and bikes and the WL is a bit sucky despite being the most awesome model kit we have lol.
And then you see the SM books and supplements and youre like oh...
Eldar still have a great time against new marines in both casual and competitive games from what I've seen so far. In competitive CWE can take Black Heart to vect the IH half damage strat. Against non-IH... well I've only played one semi-competitive game so far against a Guilliman FW dread gunline + primaris. It was a completely lopsided victory for eldar. Marines still don't really have a great answer to serpents and planes. Doesn't matter how much better their damage is, they still can't get into range.
In casual, naked wraithlords are fantastic. I ran 3 the other day against new Raven Guard and they were great because at 85pts for T8/10W/3+/5+++ with fortune they simply do not die and are dirt cheap. Deploy them aggressively and move them up the board. They will be punching marines off points for days.
EDIT: Posted this pic of my game earlier in the other thread. Wraithlords are fun. Highly recommend playing them.
What a TFG, using Bug-eyed Farseer against poor marines. Everyone knows Bug-eyed Farseer makes all marines roll 1s on their saves and run on LD checks just by looking at it.
Page 179 – Choose Ranged Weapons Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the shooting unit’s attacks, you must declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots; then resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.’
It has been maybe 2 years since this was added to not allow tagging Knights with bolter and then shoot lascannon into second Knight.
Thanks man. You have just corrected an entire country as a respected TO was getting that wrong.
Shadenuat wrote: What a TFG, using Bug-eyed Farseer against poor marines. Everyone knows Bug-eyed Farseer makes all marines roll 1s on their saves and run on LD checks just by looking at it.
Still the best farseer sculpt, even after all these years . I am ashamed I still haven't finished painting him.
What are these scorpion builds then? What buffs stack other than fortune and lfr? I'm always game for being tempted into spending obscene amounts of money on resin...
Yeah I've been finding any armor-based list has very little chance against a buffed scorpion. I've played against triple knights a few times and my list generally kills a knight a turn. FW dreads, knights, orions, whatever. If it doesn't include a component involving resilient hordes, it's probably GG. The scorpion might be the ultimate superheavy tank in 8th edition. All thanks to the psychic phase.
I've yet to play against Iron Hands though. Curious whether or not a scorpion and 3 crimson hunter exarchs can kill an IH leviathan in one round.
When do they have to play the half damage stratagem? Start of shooting phase, when their unit is declared, or when weapons are assigned?
You can catch some people out by targeting two units one with your scatter laser and the other with your big gun.
I also have Vect in my army if need be.
Where that scatter laser thing works? Knights dont' anymore as GW fixed it so that you declare guns first and then IH plays rotate ion shield stratagem. Anyway doesn't work here. Best you can do is trigger it with one unit and then switch elsewhere. And of course leviathan doesn't care if he doesn't have multiple leviathans. And even then...Well you need plenty of units to make it worth with their -1 damage anyway. Necrons have it hard. Even with that they average just over 4 wounds to non protected leviathan BEFORE feel no pain(plus 1 wound vs protected leviathan) with their 3 dda. And they don't have much of other units that would trigger it...destroyers? d3 damage. They will just soak it wiht their -1 damage anyway. Pylon and 3 dda but even that combo isn't that good. Pylon averages about 3 dda vs that leviathan...Use pylon to draw stratagem and 3 dda causes about 6 and spare before FNP.
That thing soaks up firepower like sponge. Might be better to focus on tagging him on combat. Though eldars are in better shape than necrons in AT department. But consider that even 6 damage hit will go down to 2...
Tons of shots at S8, -1 or -2 and D1 would be ideal for leviathan hunting but are there such weapons? S5-S7 at a pinch but toooooons of shots and no points paid for damage ability that gets neutered badly(you need damage 5 before you cause more than 1!). 4++ so no point having more than -2 with it's 2+ save.
I've been mathing various units against IH leviathans and IH executioners with my friends. The conclusion is IH levis are a trap and not actually very competitive, though they will certainly pub-stomp like crazy. The more competitive option is likely the IH repulsor executioner.
A scorpion actually kills an IH executioner every turn on average, without doom or jinx, thanks to the magic of flat 6 damage. The CHE air wing fairs much worse since it's got mostly D3 damage guns. But if you throw in a spearhead of fire prisms or some haywire bikes eldar really shouldn't have a problem killing executioners.
Against the IH leviathan meme matchup, the right thing to do is charge it with a banshee mask autarch followed by a wave serpent and tie it up in combat forever. But if you really want to kill it all you need is a Black Heart detachment to vect Duty Eternal. Without the half damage strat the leviathan gets one-shot by a scorpion or an air wing and some mortal wounds or some fire prisms. Keep in mind, all of this happens at 36+ inches away, so the leviathan can't even get in range to shoot its guns at your planes in the following turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: What are these scorpion builds then? What buffs stack other than fortune and lfr? I'm always game for being tempted into spending obscene amounts of money on resin...
Fortune and LFR are all you need dude. And an autarch for re-roll 1s.
Think about it. Scorpions are like knights, Alaitoc flyers, and plaguebearers all rolled into one. 20+ wounds of T8? Check. Insane, massive damage, long range weapon? Check. -2 to hit? Check. 3+/5++/5+++? Check. Oh and it also FLIES. So like with a Caladius grav-tank, it never stops shooting, and you can park it on buildings to make it immune to charges.
A scorpion has exactly 2 weaknesses preventing it from ever becoming truly top tier competitive:
1. It is essentially 700+ points invested into one, massive gun which means that's 700+ points of your list that absolutely cannot deal with hordes like 60+ plaguebearers or GSC.
2. It has no invuln and no fortune if you don't get first turn. That means if your opponent has LOS on T1, AND has a ton of long range (60+ inch), high strength, high AP guns, AND gets first turn, they can kill it before it does anything.
Both of these situations are pretty specific to truly competitive games however. So unless your playgroup is on the absolute cutting edge of the competitive meta, a scorpion will do great.
Well, a trap in what context? On say 1250 points, Leviathan is a royal seal clubber killing enemy armies without them able to do much about it, and that's without IH.
slave.entity wrote: that's 700+ points of your list that absolutely cannot deal with hordes like 60+ plaguebearers or GSC.
Don't forget about Forewarned! A scorpion wouldn't be such a bad asset vs GSC when you know you can tear the guts out of that big nasty unit of Abberants before they even charge.
As soon as the answer is all you need to do is soup and take x y z at army building stage just to have a chance to kill one unit that is no answer at all imo..
I agree the rules for IH are a little silly right now. Will be interesting to watch how the meta shifts.
One possible effect is Ironstones being everywhere will greatly reduce the value of flat 2 and D3 damage guns, which have been the most popular high damage weapons in most factions since 8th began basically. Butcher cannons, storm cannons, starcannons, avenger gatling cannons, disintegrators, heavy burst cannons, and impaler cannons are all pretty garbo against Ironstone-buffed vehicles, so if enough IH players make it to top tables people may start looking into higher damage weapons. Maybe even stuff like melta or fire dragons?
As far as my own games go, the guys at my store are all self-aware enough to let you know in advance if they're bringing the latest meta cheese to a pick-up game. Though TBH I don't think my usual semi-comp scorpion list will have to change much to put up a good fight against that list.
The answer to ironstone is doom and all the shuriken weapons. You should have some on your Serpents and maybe the occasional guardian squad (did i mention i love the 20 man Guardian bomb? ^^). Maybe even D-Scythes, if the stone gets prevalent enough in the meta. Imagine someone proposing D-Scythe Wraithguard in a competitive list in 2019
So I was looking at taking eldar to a tournament next weekend, it's a no hold bar take whatever you want tournament (rare for my lgs to run) where forgeworld will be allowed. I am expecting iron hand leviathan double gatling dreads to be there as well as knight lists.
Looking at eldar I think vs the iron hand menace we really need to run a detachment of black hand in with whatever else we are running. Vect is simply the simplest answer to the half dmg strat. Everything else becomes easy once that's taken out of the equation, even 1d less on a leviathan doesn't matter as much with doom/jinx/d-cannons flying at one.
Besides that though I am torn. I could take a large battalion or a small brigade and a flight wing of 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter.
Finally while banshees won't kill one a squad of them charging in can tie some big stuff up for a turn.
I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on a squad of three hornets because they're awesome.
On a practical level, I'm thinking about a squad of three with star cannons and CTM to put in cloudstrike to root out backfield campers. At 273 pts for 24 wounds they don't seem super expensive, plus I'm thinking they should be a nice target for lfr and fortune to buff their survivability.
Any thoughts on how effective they could be in a role like this?
kingheff wrote: I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on a squad of three hornets because they're awesome. On a practical level, I'm thinking about a squad of three with star cannons and CTM to put in cloudstrike to root out backfield campers. At 273 pts for 24 wounds they don't seem super expensive, plus I'm thinking they should be a nice target for lfr and fortune to buff their survivability. Any thoughts on how effective they could be in a role like this?
They are sweet models dude. Shouldint need any other reason to field them!
The rules are solid curently. But rules change so get them if you have the inclination my man. I'm eyeing some up myself but have way too much of a backlog currently
I'm waiting for my partner to go home for Christmas so I can get them delivered without disapproving looks! They will nicely bolster my existing triple prisms, triple serpent, double falcon and Scorpion tank forces.
I never looked that carefully at Cloudstrike and its interaction with a unit of Hornets. I also assumed to utilize Hornet Pulse Lasers, but I can see the utility in Starcannons with the points reduction.
I have begun using more Starcannons in my lists as they seem to be in a good spot for all around utility in an all comer list. As with anything, Cloudstrike would be situational, but I would think there is potential. With so many shots from this unit, I would recommend planning to implement Guide or an Autarch to maximum impact as well as Jinx/Doom.
Another thought would be to utilize 3 War Walkers with Star Cannons. They could fulfil a similar role and with a 5++ save already, they have the potential for better durability than the Hornets. Additionally, no use of CP to perform the role and are less points.
Then again, utilizing both units could provide a very strong counter shooting element .
The choice of armament for Hornets unsurprisingly depends on their intended role. I think they are best used as backline fire support, focussing fire on the enemy's medium units. With a Pulsar or Starcannon they're very similar to quad-autocannon Space Marine Dreadnoughts, both in statline and in role, so they should be used the same way.
The other use would be to zip forward, harass the enemy, and threaten lightly-defended objective. I'm not sure this is the best role for them as they're somewhat expensive to throw into harm's way, but they're better at it than any other Eldar unit if cost is no object. Hornets are tougher and have more defensive tricks than Vipers and Jet Bikes; are much faster than War Walkers; and are able to engage a wider-range of targets than most of the Eldar infantry with native deep strike. Warp Spiders are probably their only competition for best in this role.
If you're zipping around with your Hornets then Shuriken Cannon are by far the best option, as they allow the Hornets to advance and shoot. Otherwise, any of the long-range options suit the fire support role. I prefer Pulsars (that's how my Hornets are armed) as Damage 2 is fantastic for mowing down Primaris and other heavy infantry.
However, it must be kept in mind that Hornets do not perform an essential role. Anything they do can be done by Codex units, so the "best" way to use them is to plug gaps in your collection. Do you have Dark Reapers? Then you probably don't need Pulsars. Lots of Swooping Hawks? Then the Shuriken-cannon armed objective-grabbers are redundant. Etc.
The cloudstrike tactic would obviously depend on my opponent but I think it's a nice option to have.
I'm not sure if the lasers are worth the extra points, they're very good but a saving of 72 points on a squad of three isn't insignificant. That's almost enough for a foot autarch.
Starcannons are great choices for vehicles generally, especially with the new marine codexes probably bringing more marines to the table.
Maxamato wrote: With Alaitoc and Engines you will get a -3'to hit.
I think this is a good trade off.
What purpose does it serve? Contesting objectives, line breaker? With a -3 to hit, I think folks would ignore it as it would average 3 hits with its Shuriken Cannons. I ask as I have 1 painted and 5 more not yet assembled. A squadron of 3 with Starcannons piqued my interest as I really only considered arming them with Hornet Pulse Lasers.
The fact that they are a squadron is something to bear in mind. Star canons with guide and doom aint no joke. Taking them bare bones with shuri canons objective hoppin could also work.
I think personaly id run them as alitoic with shuri canons and spirit stones. They ptetty much will always be minus 2 base and will force your opponent to divert significant fire power to be removed. I cant remember if they degrade or not. Its been a while since i looked up their data sheet.
They have 8 wounds so no degradation which is very nice.
Alaitoc plus lfr gives them -2 to be hit which should be worth the 2cp.
Personally I think it would be worth having two farseers, one with doom and executioner and one with guide and fortune just to buff the hornets. With -2 to hit and a 5+ fnp they're not really efficient to shoot at.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the scenario I've put together above I might be tempted to go with the honet lasers and no CTM since they can just camp all game but I still think I prefer the more manoeuvrable star cannon and CTM load out.
Yeah alaitoc will likely go the way of the dodo for competitive unless the new aspect powers make footdar super good. Have to wait and see.
New psyker discipline - Runes of Fortune - sounds juicy. Can't wait for some previews of that, bring back Eldritch Storm! I'm hoping the ulthwe trait will get some sort of psyker boon as it should have had from the start, and running 5+ psykers like an old fashioned Seer Council will be a viable way to play again.
Tyranid Horde wrote: What way has the Raven Guard trait gone? Not up to date as I'd like to be!
All units considered in cover if attacked from beyond 12", Infantry wholly within terrain get -1 to be hit outside 12".
Right, so Rangers would still get the bonus, but Flyers, vehicles and WKs can never get the -1 from being Alaitoc. I'll be glad for it too as it leaves the Hemlocks/Crimson Hunters is a good spot still without needing to over nerf them into oblivion.
It leaves flyers in an ok spot, but destroys some (most) of the other vehicles completely. We lack the thoughness or base save to survive the amount of shooting 8th edition has added.
It will ease the decision to try some other craftworlds, but defensively it will hurt a lot and most of our tools didn't receive the same output increase to compete.
Will it still be possible to build a competitive army? Probably yes, but I think it will further reduce the number of choices in our book.
Regarding Hormets: the Vectored Engines, always advancing Alaitoc -3 to hit variant is very effective in ITC. I have had good luck with it, because turns 1 and 2 it makes for easy secondary scoring and objective capping, and when the chaff is dead by turn 3 it swoops in and ties up heavy units that cant fall back and shoot. All for 90 points.
Spartacus wrote: I'm hoping the ulthwe trait will get some sort of psyker boon as it should have had from the start, and running 5+ psykers like an old fashioned Seer Council will be a viable way to play again.
This. I could use some incentive to finish painting all my footseers and footlocks.
With CA coming out in the relatively near future, is it worth investing in two more Crimson Hunters or should I hold off until CA drops? I have one modeled as an Exarch currently.
With the potential change to Alaitoc, will there be a chance Crimson Hunters won't change much at all?
Tyranid Horde wrote: With CA coming out in the relatively near future, is it worth investing in two more Crimson Hunters or should I hold off until CA drops? I have one modeled as an Exarch currently.
With the potential change to Alaitoc, will there be a chance Crimson Hunters won't change much at all?
Too hard to say for sure, but FWIW I wouldn't base my collection on how the rules are going to change in the next 2 months, best not to base what you buy on the rules at all. Everything gets a turn at being good at some stage.
Personally I have a bad feeling about the next round of rebalancing in Phoenix. It looks to me like we'll be keeping our codex (unlike SMs) and will be getting a single new discipline (unlike SMs), and receiving this supplement to be shared across Ynnari, DE and CW (unlike SMs, where each *chapter* gets its own, let alone faction). There are multiple points of divergence there. Lastly, if they nerf Alaitoc it will severely hamper CW competitiveness, when it's already dropped in the face of the new Chapter Master reroll system, where everyone is the same as Cawl now. A Lev shooting at -2 still hits 15 out of 20 with its SCA, because it gets to reroll 2s and 3s now. That's a huge change.
As it stands CW are behind the new curve by quite a bit. If Alaitoc is nerfed that gap will widen significantly. Therefore Phoneix would have to represent a pretty big buff for us to stay competitive. We'll see I suppose, but the runes don't look good to me.
Eldar - worrying that getting new stuff and 6th total psychic discipline (fate, battle counts as 2, harlies, Revenant, now also Fortune) would make them weaker.
The plan is to stick the Spiritseer with the Reapers for Natural Leader and Protect, Troops for objectives and Farseer + Wave Serpent to give some punches..
I'm a noob but it feels "light", hope not to be tabled!
Tel11 wrote: Regarding Hormets: the Vectored Engines, always advancing Alaitoc -3 to hit variant is very effective in ITC. I have had good luck with it, because turns 1 and 2 it makes for easy secondary scoring and objective capping, and when the chaff is dead by turn 3 it swoops in and ties up heavy units that cant fall back and shoot. All for 90 points.
I appreciate the information. I have been recently learning to play ITC missions and you provide interesting insight for use of Vectored Engines.
Shadenuat wrote: Eldar - worrying that getting new stuff and 6th total psychic discipline (fate, battle counts as 2, harlies, Revenant, now also Fortune) would make them weaker.
That's not the issue dude. 'Weakness' doesn't exist in a void - it's a comparative term. This will be *the* balance pass for Eldar for 8.5. My point was that the signs are that they'll be getting a lot less compared to SM, and may well take the single biggest nerf to competitive builds by losing -1 to hit from Alaitoc.
ALso you appear to be counting up disciplines from 4 completely different factions. A bit disingenuous, that... The new psychic power looks nice though - +2 to your charge is always welcome. More nudges towards CC builds...
What would benefit the most from +2" to charge? What's the killiest/most durable eldar CC unit? Wraithblades? Skathach wraithknight?
EDIT: Oh god I forgot how sad wraithknight shooting is for the points. But I suppose with Ghostwalk you can start stomping as soon as you come in. Not sure if that's worth 500 points + a psyker though.
Shining spears already have great options for getting into combat. Wraithblades is more interesting I guess.
Actually, I'm not super excited about wraithblades either. Even if they have a 3++ and a guaranteed charge and all of the killiest buffs they still seem pretty limited. They will kill whatever they touch and then get ignored for the rest of the game. 5" move with no guns is kind of a dealbreaker.
Wraithblades with axes and shields are pretty good, but you have to plan your army around them. They're too expensive and slow to just through on to the table; they need to operate as part of a team, something that can seize the center of the table and then use that position to push forward into winning position.
I like to take a couple of Wraithlords, some psykers (duh), and some Guardians for a screen, and position them roughly in a circle with the Wraithblades in the middle. Then, on one flank I have some fast stuff to zip forward, and some slower fire support to hold rear area objectives. It's not nearly as fast or flexible as traditional Eldar, but the Wraithblades are very tough and take buffs better than anything in the codex, so they can take on almost anything and win. Their #1 enemy is Damage 3 weapons like Thunder hammers or Imperial turbo lasers, so watch out for those!
Shadenuat wrote: Eldar - worrying that getting new stuff and 6th total psychic discipline (fate, battle counts as 2, harlies, Revenant, now also Fortune) would make them weaker.
That's not the issue dude. 'Weakness' doesn't exist in a void - it's a comparative term. This will be *the* balance pass for Eldar for 8.5. My point was that the signs are that they'll be getting a lot less compared to SM, and may well take the single biggest nerf to competitive builds by losing -1 to hit from Alaitoc.
ALso you appear to be counting up disciplines from 4 completely different factions. A bit disingenuous, that... The new psychic power looks nice though - +2 to your charge is always welcome. More nudges towards CC builds...
I'm personally in the middle of these view points. I agree that it seem quite likely that Aeldari will not be getting as much compared to Marines, and it seem quite likely that Alaitoc will get rebalanced a la the Raven Guard change.
But on the other hand, Aeldari need more internal balancing while Marines needed to be propped up as a whole. Marines were bottom tier for the most part (with exceptions, obviously). CWE, however had some fairly strong builds. Alaitoc is a problem, especially combined with all the other -1 tricks we have. Rejig Alaitoc to function like the new RG and it fits better with the other CW traits.
Next, you need to elevate the sub-par units that Eldar have that are decent on paper, but are outshined by other choices.
For the most part, it looks like that is what is happening. it won't be perfect, and there's bound to be stuff for either side to complain about, but once the dust settles, I am hopefully for something that is overall better than what we have now
I'm thinking wraithguard coming out of deepstrike could be a nice target for the+2 charge power. Dumping out the shots plus the ability to jump into melee could be something useful since it can help shield them from return fire.
However I think the webway may be jammed up with guardians shooting -1 ap shots!
Has anyone made use of runes of witnessing?
I'm wondering if shuriken cat bikes surrounding a skyseer might be viable? Guardian blobs? Skytarch to allow reroll ones to hit too?
Dooming the big target with the seer and also giving anti chaff guns reroll ones to wound seems interesting but 2cp might be a bit expensive since we don't always have a ton of cp to begin with.
All our strats have a hard time competing with LFR. Though with so many BS2 and BS1 + chapter master rerolls these days sometimes LFR barely makes a difference so in those cases Runes of Witnessing may be ok.
LFR can often be a trap since quite a few armies have cheap ways of adding +1 to hit or re-rolls. Enemies can easily drain your CP this way and Eldar often don't have a lot.
Runes of Witnessing, sure, I used them in a pinch, if Doom got denied or if I couldn't reach enemy with Doom. Like re-rolling 1's for Lances or all Serpents and troops disembarked from them. You want Faolchu wing or a bike for your Farseer for this.
I wonder if they give her new points.. damn shame. Disarm or the new power would have been better. But i gues then drazhar wouldint stand a chance... pretty meh.
kingheff wrote: Has anyone made use of runes of witnessing?
I'm wondering if shuriken cat bikes surrounding a skyseer might be viable? Guardian blobs? Skytarch to allow reroll ones to hit too?
Dooming the big target with the seer and also giving anti chaff guns reroll ones to wound seems interesting but 2cp might be a bit expensive since we don't always have a ton of cp to begin with.
Lately i been running a firebase of 6x Shadow weavers with Autarch and Skyseer for re-roll 1 for hits and wounds and it's doing wonders for me also the individual nature of each weapon after deploy makes them quite durable when targeted.
Not meta worthy but the range no need for LoS and rend effect on 6+ for wounds it can pack quite a punch vs hordes and armor with some lucky rolls.
6d6 is a bit lacking to actually make use of re-rolling 1's. You need a pretty huge amount of units concentrated around Autarch/Seer (something like 6-8 with more shots) to make auras truly worth it.
Shadenuat wrote: 6d6 is a bit lacking to actually make use of re-rolling 1's. You need a pretty huge amount of units concentrated around Autarch/Seer (something like 6-8 with more shots) to make auras truly worth it.
Which is why I hate auras like that.
May I ask what your reasoning is behind this? Not I think you're wrong; I'm just curious as to how you determine an aura is "worth" it or not.
So, something that made me a little more disappointed, was listening to the FLG Signals stream last night. From what was said, the general indication is that there will be no points changes in this box set or the PA book.
Might have been said to throw people off the scent though.
I'm most interested in the traits, specifically the alaitoc one. If that's unchanged then I think the flyers will probably get a price increase, if it goes in line with the new raven guard they may escape a price rise.
A lot of that depends on the quality of the shooting. If the autarch is buffing a big unit of reapers or a scorpion, for example, every hit is a big deal. If he's buffing a couple of advancing wave serpents armed with shuriken his aura counts for little.
. But I think in order to maximise on all that movement you need some good forward screening that he can trail behind (spears/fliers)
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