119997
Post by: kingheff
The biggest advantage of spirit seers is not having two wounds, warlocks on foot that perils are a pain! 66% chance of having your head explode is not great! Having two warlocks on foot next to each other is really asking for a chain reaction of mortal wounds!
92012
Post by: Argive
No denying that the spiritseer is basicaly a batter warlock. But you cannot seer council with a seer.
If you base your strategy around powers going off you will need seer council for at least 1 maybe two turns to ensure whatever power your startegy relies on go off.
The only time I would take a seer is if he goes in a wave seprent with some wraiths unless I have 10 points to spare and am not relying on psychic powers and have another warlock for seer council. Of course if I do a bielt tan detatchemnt I would take a spirit seer for the spirit stone. However I also rate a bonesinger as simte support. Gives heal d3 wounds for wraiths/tanks or a a full smite.I like to run both. A healing wave serpent can really demoralises opponents.
Thats my take on it. Obviously peoples will disagree and its not their playstyle. I find that relying on powers going off one their own is too unreliable. Even with seer council you still can fail but the odds are much much greater towards sucess.
119997
Post by: kingheff
Seer council is great, but I tend to use a biker warlock in conjunction with a faolchu's wing farseer for the offensive powers whilst keeping a spirit seer in the back field for conceal/quicken buffs if required. The extra wound and movement on the biker is well worth the 12 PTS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also love the bonesinger, techmarine/apothecary with smite is a great combo, perfect for aggressive lists with applicable units.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?
Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?
5207
Post by: Spartacus
 Tyranid Horde wrote:Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?
Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?
Probability of rolling a 7+ on 2 dice, rerolling the first failed test is about 82%.
Rolling a 6+ on 2 dice is about 72%.
However that doesn't take into account the effect of the modifier on rolling a super smite (especially for the Farseer), or the +1 making powers harder to deny etc. The numbers probably change as the required warp charge changes too.
Probably a pretty close call, its the difference between costing you 1CP or a relic I'd say.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Spartacus wrote: Tyranid Horde wrote:Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?
Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?
Probability of rolling a 7+ on 2 dice, rerolling the first failed test is about 82%.
Rolling a 6+ on 2 dice is about 72%.
However that doesn't take into account the effect of the modifier on rolling a super smite (especially for the Farseer), or the +1 making powers harder to deny etc. The numbers probably change as the required warp charge changes too.
Probably a pretty close call, its the difference between costing you 1CP or a relic I'd say.
Cheers! It's an interesting little dilemma, I'll write up a list this evening again to see what wiggle room I have.
34646
Post by: Ovechkin8
Tyranid Horde wrote:Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?
Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?
The Biel Tan spirit stone is pretty awesome. The problem is getting that Biel Tan detachment (or running a mixed detachment) in a competitive setting.
Its not that they have a bad craftworld trait. Its that Alaitoc is better as is Ulthwe (access to Eldrad and Black Guardians and FnP)
One other thing...the Spiritseer isn't as mobile as a Warlock on a bike. If you give him that stone then you can't give him Folchu's wing to make him reasonably mobile. Getting in perfect position to get a power off can often times make it so the opponent can't even attempt to deny. Big advantages goto the "seer council" strat that need to be taken into account.
45962
Post by: Gangrel767
 Ovechkin8 wrote: Tyranid Horde wrote:Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?
Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?
The Biel Tan spirit stone is pretty awesome. The problem is getting that Biel Tan detachment (or running a mixed detachment) in a competitive setting.
Its not that they have a bad craftworld trait. Its that Alaitoc is better as is Ulthwe (access to Eldrad and Black Guardians and FnP)
One other thing...the Spiritseer isn't as mobile as a Warlock on a bike. If you give him that stone then you can't give him Folchu's wing to make him reasonably mobile. Getting in perfect position to get a power off can often times make it so the opponent can't even attempt to deny. Big advantages goto the "seer council" strat that need to be taken into account.
To me it has to do with selecting your psyker for a purpose.
I typically run a 2 man warlock conclave (they hide in a building and hopefully get forgotten by my opponent... works like 90% of the time due to threat overload) so I can use the strat for double range. This is most often my Protect/Jinx and Quicken/Restrain powers (for my jetbike/spear list). I will also typically run 2 spiritseers (one gets reroll relic), one with protect/jinx, and one with Quicken/Restrain. They wander behind my screens providing psychic support or smite when needed.
By duplicating my powers I can ensure that if one gets killed I still have access to my much needed powers, but also I can use the other half of the power as well. I sacrifice variety for efficiency and redundancy.
I have also seen people running warlock skyrunners with the biel tan artifact for the increased mobility and wounds. They don't get big boy smite, but if their purpose is dedicated to casting a different power then that's fine with me. No +1 to cast this way, but mobility and reroll is still great!
In the end I think all the options are viable in the right list, you just have to build your tactics around it.
If a psyker is going to sit deep in my deployment zone... and zone out deep strikers... then he'll probably be a warlock (i dont care about smite in this case) and he'll get a cool power (conceal for example). 18" and not requiring LOS is super powerful for those powers.
34646
Post by: Ovechkin8
You make a great overall point in that these decisions can’t be made in a vacuum. It very much depends on playstyle and how it fits into the grand scheme of your army!
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
So I have been thinking again on my lists and with some input from the army list thread I've come up with the following:
I changed the war walkers to have starcannons by dropping the underslung cannons on two of the serpents and gave the guardians a shuriken cannon instead of a scatter laser. The starcannons on the walkers beef them up a bit and they'd be a valid guide target if I can get near them with my farseer.
Biel-Tan Swordwind Battalion
HQ
Farseer (powers TBC)
Spiritseer (warlord, spirit stone of anath'lan, Biel-Tan natural leader, protect/jinx)
Troops
2x 5 Dire Avengers (Exarchs are stock)
10 Guardians w/ shuriken cannon platform
Dedicated Transport
3x Wave Serpents, 1 w/ underslung cannon
Heavy Support
3x War Walkers, all with starcannons
Total = 999pts
I've taken on board your points about the warlock and I don't feel the spiritseer contributes as much to the game plan. I could make the warlock a jetlock for added speed which might be preferable to some other upgrades I have now. A jetlock would put me 8 pts over so something would need to be dropped to squeeze it in. I also changed the lances to star cannons on the Hunter Exarch for more shots and free up points for a targeting matrix on one prism and dual catapults on the DA Exarchs.
Alaitoc Battalion
HQ
Farseer (warlord, faolchu's wing, powers TBC)
Warlock (protect/jinx)
Troops
2x 5 Dire Avengers (Exarchs have 2 catapults)
20 Guardians w/ shuriken cannon platform
5 Rangers
Heavy Support
2x Fire Prisms, 1 w/ crystal targeting matrix
Flyer
Crimson Hunter Exarch w/ 2 starcannons
Total = 996pts
Let me know what you think as I'd also like some input on Warlord traits for the second list and psychic powers in general for both lists.
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
The first one should be Doom, Executioner; the second Doom, Guide & Seer of Vector for free re-roll or replace CH Exarch with regular CH, drop Matrix and upgrade Warlock to Spiritseer, make him Warlord and give him free re-roll.
From the first list I'd drop one WS, that would allow to push ~15 more elfs with rifles into the list. One stack of 20 can DS.
From the second I'd drop Rangers, there is really no point to have only 5 snipers, with 2 Prisms sitting in your deploy anyway.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
You don't say what you're arming your serpents with. You may be able to make adjustments there if you need points. Also, IMHO, if you're going to put the walkers in Biel-Tan then you should consider using Shuriken Cannons on them for the free re-rolls.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Shadenuat wrote:The first one should be Doom, Executioner; the second Doom, Guide & Seer of Vector for free re-roll or replace CH Exarch with regular CH, drop Matrix and upgrade Warlock to Spiritseer, make him Warlord and give him free re-roll.
From the first list I'd drop one WS, that would allow to push ~15 more elfs with rifles into the list. One stack of 20 can DS.
From the second I'd drop Rangers, there is really no point to have only 5 snipers, with 2 Prisms sitting in your deploy anyway.
Cheers, that seems to be a good compromise with the CH, but wouldn't that mean BLs would be hitting on 4s? The Exarch would get around that but I've never played with a flyer before so I don't know. The powers are what I usually run but I didn't think of that warlord trait.
By elves with rifles I assume you mean rangers? I don't have any of those and I don't know if I like dropping a wave serpent for bodies, I like their durability but I could be convinced otherwise!
What would you replace the rangers with in the second list?
Leo_the_Rat wrote:You don't say what you're arming your serpents with. You may be able to make adjustments there if you need points. Also, IMHO, if you're going to put the walkers in Biel-Tan then you should consider using Shuriken Cannons on them for the free re-rolls.
Wave Serpents come stock with shuriken cannons so it doesn't need to be mentioned. Someone said to consider changing the shuriken cannons to starcannons for a bit more punch but yeah, I had those on my previous list.
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
Any Crimson Hunter is BS2+, so you hit on 3s.
More rifles like more Guardians, Avengers, etc.
WS is indeed a tough transport, but it's expensive and it doesn't do much damage. You take it do deny enemy their damage and for some extra functionality (like charging enemy shooting units) and to protect expensive units/characters. Guardians and Avengers are not very expensive.
A list with that many Serpents on 1000 pts will be tough, but can just end up in a boring routine where you can't kill enemy and enemy can't kill you.
45962
Post by: Gangrel767
 Shadenuat wrote:Any Crimson Hunter is BS2+, so you hit on 3s.
More rifles like more Guardians, Avengers, etc.
WS is indeed a tough transport, but it's expensive and it doesn't do much damage. You take it do deny enemy their damage and for some extra functionality (like charging enemy shooting units) and to protect expensive units/characters. Guardians and Avengers are not very expensive.
A list with that many Serpents on 1000 pts will be tough, but can just end up in a boring routine where you can't kill enemy and enemy can't kill you.
I've managed to do the lords work using the d3 mortal wounds from serpent shields. If carefully used in combination with the stratagem that lets you use one you previously fired it can be debilitating. I wouldn't blow them all in the top of turn 1, but it certainly can be enough to keep some baddies from getting to close with a character.
Serpent Shield + Smites can be brutal.
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Post by: Shadenuat
It's useful when Serpents are already in a degradation and if you can hit expensive models, but if most stuff you need to kill are just the very balanced 4 to 7 ppm infantry in cover/with invul/other stuff you still need some dakka.
I ran 3 Serpents for 1000 points. It's frustrating to some opponents but it takes a while to use your leftover ~500 points to focus fire enemy off the table. I found running 3 a lot better starting at 1500 points.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
I dont hear a lot of people talk about banshees and jain zah very much on here, i used them this weekend to amazing results.
1st game a squad of banshees ran across the table t1, around the enemy flank, and charged / killed 2 techmarine gunners using thunderfire cannons thanks to 1. Auto advance 6" to 2. Quicken to 3. Court of the young king.
That small squad of 6 then proceeded to just run amuck in my opponents back field, we were playing beach head mission from chapter approved and them getting there t1 and threatening their objective really helped win the game easily. T2 i deep struck another 6 woman banshee squad in and used court of the young king again to get them in and support.
2nd game was against a space wolf / grey knights player. Those grey knight strats are devistating on some of the stuff they can take.
But jain zah was the star of that show. She ended up killing a chapter aincent in term armor, 9 of the troops with storm bolters and double falcion power swords, a wolf guard battle leader, and a wolf lord. Her speed, resilience, and just plain strength, can not be denied as long as she isnt going against something way above her paygrade (1st game she got caught out in the open and was nuked by a lucky multimelta shot while trying to chase down a venerable dreadnaught)
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
Jain Zar is like a squad of Banshees packed in one model but with even more good rules.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
I am really starting to enjoy the banshees, they are the perfect bully unit. Small, cheap, fast as hell, and really able to keep my opponent on the defensive when they thought they were in the clear. Give the exarch the executioner and they can reliably do damage to any meq units out there. And jain... her rule of going first came into play a few times, its very nice when it comes up.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I really love my banshees as well. The only problem with them is S3. To counter that I need to dedicate a Warlock to support them with the +1 to damage ability. I would love it if their swords gave them +1S so that they could really stand toe to toe with T4 units.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
Idk, my 5 women squads were holding their own vs t4 units that weren't too good in cc. I think they truly are bullies, only picking a fight against those that cant fight back well. If they do find themselves in a prolonged fight (ie one thats not been decided by their 1st charge and swing) or against something that is also a combat monster (vanguard vets with storm shields and chainswords or beserkers for example) then either the warlock power or doom is really going to come in handy. Still with their speed they shouldnt get into that position.
84915
Post by: Heafstaag
What are people's thoughts on multiple units of swooping hawks jumping on and off the table dealing mortal wounds and pumping out a ton of anti infantry firepower?
86504
Post by: Weidekuh
Are we now allowed to talk about Banshees being good without getting put down by a theory crafter that has never used them? Is hell freezing over?
Banshees are excellent. Just not in the way many people think they are. Because they are sold as a melee specialist unit. They are not. But they excell at tagging shooty units, disrupting the enemy backfield and assasinating opportune targets. Lightning fast, ignore overwatch and surprisingly resilient in melee (-1tohit). They are very much a tactical finesse unit. I love them.
I found you need 7-10 in a unit to really have enough of them to wrap around enemy units for great effect.
They do however hit like kids swinging a wet noodle at a ravenous tiger.
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
I like 2x5 with Executioners in different Serpents. Make more targets for the enemy.
They hit okay against models which cost 8 ppm or more and rely on armor/cover and can be bullied in melee. Never forget you can shoot your pistols after advancing and just, well, don't forget the pistols. The problem is cheap infantry with T4 or Invulnerable saves.
If Banshees were 12 ppm and cheap infantry got more expensive they would be okay, like most other medium-elites.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
Weidekuh wrote:Are we now allowed to talk about Banshees being good without getting put down by a theory crafter that has never used them? Is hell freezing over?
Banshees are excellent. Just not in the way many people think they are. Because they are sold as a melee specialist unit. They are not. But they excell at tagging shooty units, disrupting the enemy backfield and assasinating opportune targets. Lightning fast, ignore overwatch and surprisingly resilient in melee (-1tohit). They are very much a tactical finesse unit. I love them.
I found you need 7-10 in a unit to really have enough of them to wrap around enemy units for great effect.
They do however hit like kids swinging a wet noodle at a ravenous tiger.
Yep we are talking about them being good without theory crafting lol. I am speaking from my results from them this weekend. For their cost they did so much beyond just killing stuff. The fact that they charge in, deny overwatch (very huge), and can surgically strike where they need to is so good. Normally i look at units and want a big squad to maximize special effects or strats, but even a small 5 man squad spending 1cp to deep strike then 2 for court of the young king felt like a valid option as they are so small they can easily fit into a tiny hole that an opponent accidentally leaves or just cant cover. And if they die it was 68 pts to force your opponent to turn around and deal with them for a turn, thats worth a lot that can not be math hammered.
I also got my hands on swooping hawks (they seem like a good option for reinforcing a line vs lower toughness units like guard, and cheap enough that can be purchased in an all comers list and not feel like a waste), some warp spiders, some shining spears, some scorpions, and some dark reapers. I really just filled out my aspect side of eldar so now am experimenting with them. Going from 5 banshees to 20 owned has opened my eyes to them. 5 never seemed worth it. 3 squads of 5 and jain zar suddenly thats a strike force that can punish an opponent when they make a mistake.
92012
Post by: Argive
I love all of our aspects. Like the idea of banshees. I think they can offer some great tactical options. I would like to get some banshees with jain zair. I feel like i would run them out of a serpent near an avatar to crash into an enemy flank. Perhaps not killy but enough to shut down enemy lines and make them deal with it.
The acrobaric rule requires advance so seems better to run them out of a serpent than in web way. A 10 man unit of scorpions dropping in to assist sounds awesome. Suddenly fielding a biel-tan vanguard detatchement of banshees & scrorpions with a psyker who can take spirit stone doesnt sound too bad. I dont feel like the -1 from alitoic would be missed if your units will be gettting stuck in. Avatars fearless bubble and heavy hitting backup can be thrown into the mix also. Spears have been a bit too hiked in price coz of ynnari so makes these more valid.
I honestly think the only reason we dont see that many aspects is that they are finecast and sold in squads of 5. Nobody wants to deal with many finecast models or stripping/pinning metal ones from ebay. The metal ones are more expensive because people would rather pay premium for old metal models than pay for finecast. Im beyond belief nobody at gw has noticed this...
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
You can pick up the less used aspects ten a penny on eBay as they're not meta units. If you don't mind older sculpts and/or stripping, eBay is really cost efficient. You're missing out if you don't consider eBay an option. The secondary market is booming, especially for sealed boxes of current metal sculpts. Very few companies care about the secondary market outside of card games like MtG.
On topic, I picked up a 10 man squad of Banshees on the aforementioned site and I'm keen on trying them out. S3 is really off-putting for me though, even with a good delivery system (wave serpent). I'm very tempted to try out a Swordwind army all the same.
119997
Post by: kingheff
I quite like running two squads of banshees in falcons with star cannons and CTM.
First turn run the falcons up and shoot something, second turn banshees jump out to do their thing and then the falcons shoot and then change into something to shut them down, knowing the next turn I can fall back and still shoot.
As a combo they do great work at disrupting gunlines. At a smidge over 400 PTS I think they're well worth their points.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I'm not a big fan of the CTM. Sure it gets rid of the -1 to hit but it limits you to shooting only the closest unit if you want to use it. Also putting a heavy weapon on a serpent pretty much limits it to just 16" moves since you can't assault and fire heavy weapons at the same time. If you're going to use serpents as troop delivery systems you'd do better with shuriken cannons, with vectored and star engines. Then you can give your banshees whatever attribute you want and your serpents are still -1 to be hit regardless of the enemy's range.
92012
Post by: Argive
Tyranid Horde wrote:You can pick up the less used aspects ten a penny on eBay as they're not meta units. If you don't mind older sculpts and/or stripping, eBay is really cost efficient. You're missing out if you don't consider eBay an option. The secondary market is booming, especially for sealed boxes of current metal sculpts. Very few companies care about the secondary market outside of card games like MtG.
On topic, I picked up a 10 man squad of Banshees on the aforementioned site and I'm keen on trying them out. S3 is really off-putting for me though, even with a good delivery system (wave serpent). I'm very tempted to try out a Swordwind army all the same.
Older sculpts tend to be cheaper indeed. And for good reason i think, they look very very dated. I wouldint personaly spend money on some old sculpts caked with paint.
The new style metal sculpts tend to sell for more than finecast equivalent. Obviously sometimes you can get a good bargain on a bundle etc. Im not disputting how good ebay can be, it can be pretty damn good. But on the whole metal goes for more than finecast and there is a good reason for that. Can agree or disagree of course. I tend to do a lot of flipping and ebaying so im quite confident in asserting this claim.
Economics aside i really like the idea of running aspects. I think warp spiders are probably the least 'competative'. But im hoping to run some in the future however shadow specters just seem so much better.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Tyranid Horde wrote:
On topic, I picked up a 10 man squad of Banshees on the aforementioned site and I'm keen on trying them out. S3 is really off-putting for me though, even with a good delivery system (wave serpent). I'm very tempted to try out a Swordwind army all the same.
They're fantastic disruptor units, especially against gunline armies that cant fall back and continue firing, but their killing power is sorely lacking. They can cover a terrifying amount of ground though, and with precise play can really ruin a turtle's day.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
I would love to hear some reviews about warp spiders myself. I have only 5 of them, but there are my 3rd favorite aspect in eldar (Banshees and Dire Avengers being 1 and 2). I dont run forgeworld so shadow specters are a non issue to me. Also they do seem to have a different roll. Shadows are an elite that moves 12" and have a stronger weapon depending on what your using it for (88 pts gets you 3 guys doing like 6 hits at 18" or 10 at 8", they seem like elite hunters to me.
Spiders however move between 11" and 31" so are at least as fast but probably faster, get 5 guys for 86 pts, and 8 hits on average with their guns (assuming exarch with double guns) but ap 0 typically so more of a chaff clearer or target of opportunity type unit.
Yeah on paper shadows look better. But i think a swarm of spiders could have a good use jumping behind enemy lines and grabbing objectives that were assumed to be out of reach.
Again i would love to see some actual game perspective about both.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Unfortunately Spiders suffer from serious JOATMON syndrome. They're undergunned, overcosted, and not particularly resilient.
Want a chaff clearer? Guardian bombs and/or bikes do it better.
Want an objective clearer? Bikes and Spectres do it better.
Want a headhunter? Hemlocks do it faaaaaar better.
There's nothing I can think of that another unit cant do better, and more efficiently.
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
Spiders are a lot more resilient than say Hawks. The 2+ save in Cover with their inherent -1 to hit is quite good. Where Hawks would die easily I tanked like the rest of the leftover enemy army with Spiders on later turns when playing objectives.
I can only recommend using both and pick what you like. Go with 2x5 Spiders and 5 Hawks for 2k points for example and see how it works.
The guns of Spiders are indeed underwhelming though. I think Damage 2 on rending would be a nice boost, as well as a point drop for them.
53848
Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
I've used a unit of 5 Warp Spiders a few times to fill up an awkward amount of leftover points. They do ok as an objective grabber/screen thanks to having very high mobility and durability for their points. Damage output is fairly low but they can chip in.
I just saw on frontline gaming that one of the top 8 lists for the BAO was a Windrider Host list with a Warlock Skyrunner Conclave! I haven't looked at those guys for a while but I'm tempted to now. They can put out a lot of damage with a full unit having 40 S4 rending shots and 10 2's to wound D3 damage shots from Singing Spears. Follow that up with 20 2's to wound D3 damage pokes in hand to hand. The real selling point for me is the 2CP Windrider Host stratagem that lets them move after attacking in the fight phase- I miss hit and running Ynnari Shining Spears.
45962
Post by: Gangrel767
When the spear is thrown it's at STR 9.
I wanna try my conclave now as well.... hmm..
121068
Post by: Sterling191
It still has the "wound on 2" property in its shooting profile.
Yes its weird.
112649
Post by: grouchoben
I like the idea. We all like the idea. But you're talking about a 670pt unit here with 20 wounds and T4...
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Bikelocks are 3w each, not 2w like spears.
It becomes an insanely difficult to kill unit when buffed with conceal, protect, and fortune. Unlike the 9-man spear blob, it retains its 4++ in close combat which means it's significantly more survivable when staying in melee (and continuing to do damage) on the enemy turn. It pretty much wants to be in melee all the time since there are few CC units that have enough volume of attacks to remove 30 wounds of -1 to hit, T4 3++/5+++. If you've ever had a blob of 20 catalyzed genestealers touch your gunline, you know what I'm talking about. Fall back and charge makes them a much bigger CC threat than usual since they will bad touch whatever they want every turn. With the bikelocks it's even worse because they have a massive fly move, a 3++, and can unload 50 shots at any target in the vicinity before charging in.
On top of being hard to kill, it's also a really powerful self-sufficient psyker. It casts 3/denies 3 meaning it can buff itself, can double the range of a power for 1CP, has a high chance of being within deny range for all 3 denies, and always does D6 mortal wounds when it smites.
When I first saw the BAO list, my initial reaction was "lol looks dumb" but after seeing some of the math I'm convinced it has sufficiently noteworthy characteristics to make it worth looking into.
I don't know if it's stronger than taking 18x spears, but the comparison isn't quite as cut and dry as it might look at first glance. It has a lot of unique advantages over spears and the ability to keep a 3++ in close combat means it plays very differently.
93856
Post by: Galef
The biggest downside IMO that keeps the Bikelocks less appealing that equal points of Spears is that fact that it NEEDS all of it's powers to go off to really work. Otherwise, it's a more expensive unit that dies faster than Spears
-
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
The biggest downside is 2 attacks hitting on 3s.
120829
Post by: Robcio
What does everyone think about double SC Vypers? In a squad of 3 thats 18 SC shots on a fast and relatively durable platform, for 180pts. They can also tie up units and fall back with no penalty with fly, they seem like a decent choice for tactical flexibility.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I would weigh the double SC Vypers against double SC Walkers. They each cost 180 points for 3 but after that offer very different advantages. The Vypers have maneuverability but the walkers have staying power. I guess it depends on what role you need filled to choose properly.
113274
Post by: NexAddo
Crimson Hunters.
Bright lances vs Starcannons?
2nd Question.
I'm concerned after losing Ynnari that I wont have the punch to take out a knight reliably now.
Whats our best source of taking one out? I've seen people suggest fire prisms but even with 3 firing twice and linked fire Math hammer doesn't have them taking one out
Thoughts?
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Doom and charging with spears. Doom helps compensate for wounding on 5s and after you wound, AP4 means the flat 2 damage passes cleanly into the knight.
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Post by: bullyboy
prisms and hemlocks combined work well in my experience. Even shuriken or shadoweaver fire with doom can strip a few wounds if needed.
61896
Post by: dan2026
 Argive wrote:
I honestly think the only reason we dont see that many aspects is that they are finecast and sold in squads of 5. Nobody wants to deal with many finecast models or stripping/pinning metal ones from ebay. The metal ones are more expensive because people would rather pay premium for old metal models than pay for finecast. Im beyond belief nobody at gw has noticed this...
I actually quite like pinning metal models, it's very satisfying.
And I would also rather pay a premium for metal than touch finecast with a ten foot barge pole.
Stripping models can be a pain in the arse though. Some of the models I've had off EBay look like they were painted with Dulux. Two thin coats? Try ten thick coats!
5207
Post by: Spartacus
 dan2026 wrote: Argive wrote:
I honestly think the only reason we dont see that many aspects is that they are finecast and sold in squads of 5. Nobody wants to deal with many finecast models or stripping/pinning metal ones from ebay. The metal ones are more expensive because people would rather pay premium for old metal models than pay for finecast. Im beyond belief nobody at gw has noticed this...
I actually quite like pinning metal models, it's very satisfying.
And I would also rather pay a premium for metal than touch finecast with a ten foot barge pole.
Stripping models can be a pain in the arse though. Some of the models I've had off EBay look like they were painted with Dulux. Two thin coats? Try ten thick coats!
Yeah agreed, especially when the previous owner has been too liberal with a cheap aerosol paint to prime. Vinyl paint just goes gunky when you try and strip it. Just isn't worth the effort to me anymore, having to go in with a toothpick and pry nasty black gunk out of all the crevasses.
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Post by: dan2026
Biostrip 20 was up to the task as usual.
Took two separate dips and a lot of scrubbing though.
53848
Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
Galef wrote:The biggest downside IMO that keeps the Bikelocks less appealing that equal points of Spears is that fact that it NEEDS all of it's powers to go off to really work. Otherwise, it's a more expensive unit that dies faster than Spears
-
My theory crafting is so far leading me to the opposite conclusion. I tend to find that Shining Spears also NEED powers to go off in order to work. Both the Council and Spears will go down fast if they charge into the enemy lines without buffs. Losing 308 points of Spears is a lot better than losing 670pts of council though, of course. The Council does have 2 big advantages however: 1) Nimble Escape: 2CP to move after attacking in the fight phase. A Completely unbuffed council can shoot, charge, then move back 16 or 22" to avoid being counter charged/rapid fired, and benefit from the Alaitoc trait. The Spears will be left in the line of fire, ripe for a counter charge (they are terrible at receiving a charge) and too close to benefit from Alaitoc. 2) Seer Council: 1CP to +1 to cast on a Farseer and Warlock unit within 6" of each other. This strat is amazing with a full Council, you get +1 to cast on 5 powers, meaning that they are more likely to get their buffs than Spears. If we assume that both units DO get their buffs, then the Spears have a big weakness that the council does not: Getting charged. Anything with good AP and multi damage wrecks Spears in HtH. In my experience their biggest problem usually comes from a character that hits on 2's with such a Weapon: LFR doesn't make enough difference and they have no invul in HtH. The council has a 3++, and with 3 wounds each, 2 damage and D3 damage weapons are less of a problem (They also have the Nimble Escape strat to prevent them being charged in the first place). Not having this weakness means that you have the option to just tie up as many shooting units as possible with the council, tank the counter charge, then do the same again the following turn with the Windrider Host WL trait, or Feigned Retreat. Ultimately I think the Spears are a better unit to include in most lists, as the Council will be too many eggs in one basket, but the Windrider Host specialist detachment makes them a viable choice. Who didn't read that and think "This would be amazing for Shining Spears!" Also, the eye watering 670pt price tag is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you get 3 psychic powers included. The Spears need to pay extra, although I wouldn't go as far as to say that you can add some Spiritseers to the cost of Spears.
93856
Post by: Galef
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Galef wrote:The biggest downside IMO that keeps the Bikelocks less appealing that equal points of Spears is that fact that it NEEDS all of it's powers to go off to really work. Otherwise, it's a more expensive unit that dies faster than Spears
-
My theory crafting is so far leading me to the opposite conclusion. I tend to find that Shining Spears also NEED powers to go off in order to work. Both the Council and Spears will go down fast if they charge into the enemy lines without buffs. Losing 308 points of Spears is a lot better than losing 670pts of council though, of course.
The Council does have 2 big advantages however:
1) Nimble Escape: 2CP to move after attacking in the fight phase. A Completely unbuffed council can shoot, charge, then move back 16 or 22" to avoid being counter charged/rapid fired, and benefit from the Alaitoc trait. The Spears will be left in the line of fire, ripe for a counter charge (they are terrible at receiving a charge) and too close to benefit from Alaitoc.
2) Seer Council: 1CP to +1 to cast on a Farseer and Warlock unit within 6" of each other. This strat is amazing with a full Council, you get +1 to cast on 5 powers, meaning that they are more likely to get their buffs than Spears.
The fact that you can get 18 Spears for less than the cost of 10 Warlocks is the point though. Both benefit greatly from powers, yes, but the Spears being SOOOO much cheaper means you don't lose as much when those powers fail. You also get much more attacks in both shooting and melee. And the Laser lance can actually kills stuff with decent armour saves.
And the "advantages" you note, while cool, require CPs, which in my experience are in far too short supply. Seer Council is a given, but Nimble Escape seems too much like a "I had no choice but to pull a risky maneuver" rather than planning out your turn so that you didn't HAVE to use it.
But it probably depends on what else is in your list. I like Spears because I don't have to build the army around them. I'm already taking a Farseer & Warlock (Seer Council) plus an Autarch. All Skyrunners, of course. But I also take Prisms (linked fire) and a unti of 20 Guardians (Webway & Celestial Shield). So for me, I just do not have the CPs available to PROPERLY support a full Warlock unit. And you have to set aside CPs for Command Rerolls to mitigate bad luck in the first 2 turns
However, I could see them working well when the army is build around THEM and minimizes use of other units that need Stratagems (so no Prisms, Webway units, Guardians, etc)
-
53848
Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
 Galef wrote:
[1]The fact that you can get 18 Spears for less than the cost of 10 Warlocks is the point though. Both benefit greatly from powers, yes, but the Spears being SOOOO much cheaper means you don't lose as much when those powers fail. You also get much more attacks in both shooting and melee. And the Laser lance can actually kills stuff with decent armour saves.
[2]And the "advantages" you note, while cool, require CPs, which in my experience are in far too short supply. Seer Council is a given, but Nimble Escape seems too much like a "I had no choice but to pull a risky maneuver" rather than planning out your turn so that you didn't HAVE to use it.
[3]But it probably depends on what else is in your list. I like Spears because I don't have to build the army around them. I'm already taking a Farseer & Warlock (Seer Council) plus an Autarch. All Skyrunners, of course. But I also take Prisms (linked fire) and a unti of 20 Guardians (Webway & Celestial Shield). So for me, I just do not have the CPs available to PROPERLY support a full Warlock unit. And you have to set aside CPs for Command Rerolls to mitigate bad luck in the first 2 turns
However, I could see them working well when the army is build around THEM and minimizes use of other units that need Stratagems (so no Prisms, Webway units, Guardians, etc)
-
I think I generally agree with you that Spears are better than the council, but I will contest some of your points [numbered for clarity]:
[1] If a Council charges in it will do less damage than 2 units of spears. The Council will then either tank the counter attack, or use Nimble escape, and do the same next turn. The Spears will lose whichever unit didn't get the buffs, and only have one unit next turn (or the non-buffed unit will get shot to pieces, and the buffed unit will get taken out in HtH).
[2] I strongly disagree with you here, Nimble Escape is the main reason I think the Council is even worth considering now. Combined with their ability to tank enemy assault units, it allows the council to attack when it's not safe to do so with Spears. I've found my Spears to be much less effective without the old Ynnari rules letting them run away after killing a unit in assault. Rather than being "I had no choice but to pull a risky maneuver" it's "I can pull of this maneuver without any risk!" it gives you more options when planning your turn. Just throw the council into the jaws of death. If you didn't break all the teeth, or don't think you can tank those that are left, simply leave.
[3]You're absolutely right here, you have to build the list around the Council, and it will eat most of your CP. The list I saw that set me on this dubious line of thinking was 3x Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 6x 5 Rangers, The Council, and 9 Scatterbikes. The Scatterbikes presumably hide or go in the Webway, leaving a bunch of units with -2 to hit and a Council for the opponent to shoot at.
My inferior version of the list, which is limited by my available models:
92012
Post by: Argive
Foot council in a serpent anyone?
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Post by: Azuza001
I did watch a battle report at least a year ago where someone ran a full squad of warlocks on bikes and while it seemed good he said the same things at the end. It costs too much and is very easily killed by an alpha strike on them before powers go off or by weapons designed for killing them and not caring about ap.
With so many weapons and powers out there that is normally seen in mass for cheap consiser this.
Bolters wound them on 4's and dont care about 3++. Las guns do it on 5's but are typically getting more shots so its a wash. Scatterlasers and shuriken cannons wound on 3's. Splinter weapons on 4's. Tesla on 4's or 3's depending on the weapon. Mortars on 4's. Devourers on 4's. I could go on but i think i made my point. Any half decent anti infantry guns will give them hell, especially with better bolter rules in effect now. And thats not counting death hex / null zone / smite powers either which you won't be able to deny always.
If your opponent is firing anti tank weapons at them then yes they will be super amazing. And they do seem quite awsome. But 670 pts is soooo much for 1 squad.
If we want to compare them to spears then we should be doing that at equal points. As galef pointed out thats 18 spears for 10 warlocks.
But if someone has the warlocks i would love again to see more first hand knowledge of how they actually perform in todays meta. Like i said about the bat rep i watched, it was an early 8th edition one (i think our codex had just come out) so people were not taking things like knights so it may not hold as much value as it had.
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Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
All valid points. Although IF the council has it's buffs up, and can keep it's distance, it can be at -3 to hit, which is essentially bullet proof. Death hex will be very bad if it goes off! Foot council in a serpent anyone?
Nah. Windrider Host is the only reason I think they might do anything.
92012
Post by: Argive
Im going to run foot conclave when i get the models painted. Because got lots of warlock models lol. Planning on dropping them in from a serpent along with a big blob of wraiths in the web way. Footlocks are way too overpriced more so than the bikes methinks.
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Post by: Orbei
I don't think conclaves are good on foot or bike, personally. Way, way too overpriced for what you get. However... fielding a max unit as CWE and a max unit as Ynarri would make for a pretty entertaining game.
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Post by: slave.entity
For the record I think 38 wounds of spears edges out 30w of bikelocks, if only because you can do more with 2 units of bikes running around threatening different things, as opposed to a single, ultra fast, ultra durable death star unit.
But the bikelock deathstar is much stronger than it appears and provides unique advantages over 18x spears. If you can manage to tri-point something then bikelocks have the upper hand due to the 3++ in CC.
Both units are of course vulnerable if their spells don't go off, but in my experience that is rarely a problem as you'll always deploy your spears in the corner, as far away from the enemy as possible, and out of LOS anyway. That's what quicken is for. Spears or bikelocks shouldn't really ever be targetable until after they've hit something.
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Post by: Leo_the_Rat
Not a tactics question but a model question- In the codex it states that a spiritseer can only have a pistol and a staff. The model from the wake the dead set has a staff and a sword. WtF? At least we know that GW doesn't believe in WYSIWYG for 40K any more.
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Post by: Lord Perversor
Leo_the_Rat wrote:Not a tactics question but a model question- In the codex it states that a spiritseer can only have a pistol and a staff. The model from the wake the dead set has a staff and a sword. WtF? At least we know that GW doesn't believe in WYSIWYG for 40K any more.
It represents the plain basic combat weapon that every model is equipped should they lack a weapon.
Either way it was also clearly mentioned in the Wake the Dead warcom article as just representing a ritual knife with almost no effect in game.
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Post by: grouchoben
I think the point still stands though. 'Oh that sword on all my guardians? those are just representing ritual blades with no game effect.' WYS is not WYG.
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Post by: Galef
 grouchoben wrote:I think the point still stands though. 'Oh that sword on all my guardians? those are just representing ritual blades with no game effect.' WYS is not WYG.
Well, technically, even Guardian Defenders come stock with a melee weapon, just like even other model in the game.
Simple knives and plain swords represent this well, even if it could confuse them with Storm Guardians. But if you're confused by the different between the standard firearm (Catapult) and Pistol, which should be the TRUE difference between the 2 units, than maybe WYSIWYG isn't the standard in which you should go by.
-
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Post by: Leo_the_Rat
When people say that the weapon that figure is holding is a knife I can't help but think of Crocodile Dundee. That thing is as big as lot of other models swords.
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Post by: Azuza001
 Lord Perversor wrote:Leo_the_Rat wrote:Not a tactics question but a model question- In the codex it states that a spiritseer can only have a pistol and a staff. The model from the wake the dead set has a staff and a sword. WtF? At least we know that GW doesn't believe in WYSIWYG for 40K any more.
It represents the plain basic combat weapon that every model is equipped should they lack a weapon.
Either way it was also clearly mentioned in the Wake the Dead warcom article as just representing a ritual knife with almost no effect in game.
Wasnt that just an excuse they came up with because they pulled a reverse GW on accident? They built a model without proper rules! Lmao.  
Just kidding!
92012
Post by: Argive
It looks cool. Leave it alone! 
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Post by: Heafstaag
How are you all liking Swooping hawks this edition?
They seem to put out a ton of anti infantry firepower, and have the ability to dish out mortal wounds as well. Plus they are fast!
They don't seem to be very expensive points wise, either.
Am I missing something as to why they aren't seen more often?
Guardians put out similar dakka and cheaper, maybe?
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Hawks are fun to play. The ton of anti-infantry firepower is more like a wet towel, though. Yes it's a lot of dice, but low strength and no ap, so actual effect is minor. They also die to a stiff breeze. The comparison to Guardians isn't quite fitting though, while Guardians do compare (favorably) in the anti infantry role, Hawks get to move quicker or utterly redeploy and deepstrike again.
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Post by: Shadenuat
How more often do you want to see them, Hawks been here and there even in tournament lists since Codex came out? They're a bit fragile for their points (especially after scatbikes got cheaper) but are still a good support unit.
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Post by: Azuza001
Hawks are cheap per 5 man squad, i always take 1 squad of them, sometimes 2. If you don't know what your facing they can be invaluable. Vs another t3 army like de or harliquens or guard they can kill a squad of chaff quickly and not be a big loss when they die. Vs tougher opponents (t4 guys and higher) i use them as speed bumps or t3 objective grabbers.
They fit into most armies and are cheap enough to not be a big issue, but they wont win you a game on their own and may do nothing of importance.
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Post by: Gangrel767
Sterling191 wrote:
It still has the "wound on 2" property in its shooting profile.
Yes its weird.
whoa...
92012
Post by: Argive
Not sure how I feel about hawks.
I would like to run 3 blobs of 10 msu and throw in a quicken to see how many mortal wounds can be done.
"Swooping Hawks can
fire a spread of grenades when they are set up on the
battlefield using the Children of Baharroth ability and
as they fly over enemy units in the Movement phase.
..
Then, in either case, roll one dice for
each model in the enemy unit (up to a maximum of one
dice for each model in the Swooping Hawks unit). For
each roll of a 6 the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound."
I assume you couldn't potentially use your move+ advance in a way that would allow you to double back on yourself in order to pass over a unit twice? I cant remember what the movement core rules state or if it specifically states this at all of the top of my head.
Also, if you fly over 1 enemy model you only roll one dice even if you have a 5 man unit? Not sure how to read the rule.
Totaly unrelated, my mad battle plans are slowly taking shape.. 'Im taking 2 vibro cannons out for a spin on friday 
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Post by: Shadenuat
Also, if you fly over 1 enemy model you only roll one dice even if you have a 5 man unit?
Yes.
92012
Post by: Argive
Yeah I though so...very weak.
Also if you fly over 2 units I assume you can bomb them both?
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Post by: Shadenuat
Just re-read the rule?
92012
Post by: Argive
its not very obvious. 'Units' implies plural but you never know with GW...
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Post by: Shadenuat
"After unit has moved, pick one enemy unit that they flew over".
To me, the last part of rule seemed written in a bit convoluted way, but basically it makes sense if you explain it as: no more rolls than models in enemy unit, and no more than Hawks in a unit.
And yes the rule is one of those roll 6 for something awesome to happen and Hawks are probably too expensive because of it. I'd prefer they just get their plasma and haywire grenades back and the rule just did extra d6 autohits with plasma grenade profile or something like that. Would give them a nice edge in clearing hordes.
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Post by: JNAProductions
Thoughts on Support Batteries with Vibro Cannons?
Lots of Vibro Cannons?
Just got the Dex (I know, late to the party) and am looking at stuff and things.
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Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I'm having fun with wraithguard. Just for general info my FLGS plays at the 1250 level. So I built a Battalion using wraithguard as my primary weapon. Cover and Protect make them pretty nasty and Fortune takes them to an 11. I use 2 spirit seers as my warlocks since I also have 2 Wraithlords in the list as well.
My question is why don't I/we see more lists with wraithguard? Granted they don't have battle focus but they have T6 and 3W each. It seems to me that they should be pretty common. What am I missing, if anything?
92012
Post by: Argive
JNAProductions wrote:Thoughts on Support Batteries with Vibro Cannons?
Lots of Vibro Cannons?
Just got the Dex (I know, late to the party) and am looking at stuff and things.
I will let you know tomorrow, I'm using 2x vibros in a 1300pts game vs deathguard. I like the idea of them on paper and cant wait to them out. What appeals the most is the subsequent shots buffing and the potential to deny a unit its advance move. Could be huge vs some armies and it also pumps out d3 shots d3dmg with ap in its own right.
I really like the look of them and shadow weavers I have 3 platforms 2 of 2hich are built and im hoping to be running these for a cheap spearhead/eldrad detachment.
Leo_the_Rat wrote:I'm having fun with wraithguard. Just for general info my FLGS plays at the 1250 level. So I built a Battalion using wraithguard as my primary weapon. Cover and Protect make them pretty nasty and Fortune takes them to an 11. I use 2 spirit seers as my warlocks since I also have 2 Wraithlords in the list as well.
My question is why don't I/we see more lists with wraithguard? Granted they don't have battle focus but they have T6 and 3W each. It seems to me that they should be pretty common. What am I missing, if anything?
I personally rate guard. Very durable and can hide in a serpent or webway. I have a unit of 5 magnetized and I have used them in every battle. The blades are probably my favourite go to variant.
Casting enhance + supreme disdain strat in the last game was glorious... all of the rolls! Also can look at psytronome and vigilius detatchement.
In the future im planning on running a blob of 10 axes and have them march up the table/drop in from web way and hopefully attract all the fire power to see how durable they will be.
Wraith guard with protect/conceal/fortune walking down the field sounds awesome!!!
I would say stay away from D-scythes... Massive points sink and dmg output is terrible with only 1dmg and 8"range. If they were d6/d3 dmg It would make sense..
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Post by: JNAProductions
Also, is there a general tactics summary in this thread anywhere?
92012
Post by: Argive
Not sure what you mean?
You can read back through the previous pages discussing tactics and units which might be beneficial, caveat being various things/tactics that have been discussed which would be beneficial but as rules are tweaked some tactics and tips might be invalid by now.
You could ask how you should use specific units, which units are strong and ask for strengths and weaknesses. I.E. post an army list and ask what people think and if you know who you are playing what target priority should be etc.
The next best thing would be to watch some CWE battle reports.
Bottom line is there is no substitute for experience with your army/lists.
106383
Post by: JNAProductions
Argive wrote:
Not sure what you mean?
You can read back through the previous pages discussing tactics and units which might be beneficial, caveat being various things/tactics that have been discussed which would be beneficial but as rules are tweaked some tactics and tips might be invalid by now.
You could ask how you should use specific units, which units are strong and ask for strengths and weaknesses. I.E. post an army list and ask what people think and if you know who you are playing what target priority should be etc.
The next best thing would be to watch some CWE battle reports.
Bottom line is there is no substitute for experience with your army/lists.
I mean something like a unit-by-unit breakdown of what's good, what's bad, etc.
Or a general summary of what's been found to be effective. It's cool if that's not there.
92012
Post by: Argive
I see. You wont find a handy format like this on this thread unfortunately. Might find some breakdowns on YouTube.
However you could read back through the pages of the thread going back to about Dec2018/Jan 2019 (CA 2018) and read through the various discussions. All units would have been discussed at some stage with people saying how they like to use them and giving tips.
Do you have an army already or are you looking to start ?
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Post by: Spartacus
I love me some D-Scythe wraithguard.
I have a list with 16 of them in Waveserpents. Its like an overload of tank type targets, because you really need to hit Wraithguard with antitank guns if you wanna take them out quickly.
The wraithcannons don't really interest me as it makes them so one-dimensional. The D-scythes only do a little bit worse vs vehicles and such, but obviously far better against smaller targets. When using the cannons I found they tended to get swarmed by infantry if my opponent couldn't shoot them to death, and even though you can fall back and still shoot, the screen is usually enough to block off my ability to get at the bigger targets they actually want to shoot.
The Dscythes have no such issue. If someone wants to charge them, they first have to eat some of the nastiest overwatch in the game, usually enough to pretty much wipe a squad of Guardsmen or Firewarriors for example. Much more difficult to put away and block because they're also more mobile, you can always advance and fire without any penalty, which mitigates the shorter range. More expensive of course, but I'd rather pay more points and do something than take the cannons and do nothing, I tried and just couldn't make them work.
What really makes it work IMO, whatever type you take, is that you have notoriously tough Wave Serpents full of powerful offensive units. Your opponent has to decide between waiting until they bail out and eating a round of nasty shooting at point blank, or committing to taking out the wave serpents before they get close which is super hard and pretty much a waste of their firepower in most instances. I find I win nearly every game when my opponent tries killing multiple wave serpents instead of my other stuff.
Wraithblades don't really interest me, but I see a lot of people doing great things with them using the wraith-host detachment.
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Post by: Elian
Spartacus wrote:I love me some D-Scythe wraithguard.
I have a list with 16 of them in Waveserpents. Its like an overload of tank type targets, because you really need to hit Wraithguard with antitank guns if you wanna take them out quickly.
The wraithcannons don't really interest me as it makes them so one-dimensional. The D-scythes only do a little bit worse vs vehicles and such, but obviously far better against smaller targets. When using the cannons I found they tended to get swarmed by infantry if my opponent couldn't shoot them to death, and even though you can fall back and still shoot, the screen is usually enough to block off my ability to get at the bigger targets they actually want to shoot.
The Dscythes have no such issue. If someone wants to charge them, they first have to eat some of the nastiest overwatch in the game, usually enough to pretty much wipe a squad of Guardsmen or Firewarriors for example. Much more difficult to put away. More expensive of course, but I'd rather pay more points and do something than take the cannons and do nothing, I tried and just couldn't make them work.
Wraithblades don't really interest me, but I see a lot of people doing great things with them using the wraith-host detachment.
I get it i really do.
For me is the opposite though.
A lot of Yanden stratagems and relics (plus the wraithhost detachment!!) focus on getting your wraith into combat.
To me wraithblades could become litterally beast with some support!
Copied form 1d4chan:
Wraithblades have 2 attacks Therefore you get 2 attacks ×2 due to Psytronome, then +1 due to charge, then +1 due to Ghostswords making in total 6 attacks
Plus the stratagem from wraith host that makes 7 attack, you can use another stratagem to make them reroll the hits, you can move with the warlock powers you can give the 4++ invulnerable that becomes 3++ again with powers.
The Dscythes imho have too short of a range to be effective and sometimes they can't do any overwatch If the enemy is more than 8".
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Post by: Shadenuat
You need something like 5 vibros to actually make their rule worth it.
https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/eldar-battle.png
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Post by: Spartacus
Yeah absolutely, the rules interactions make a Wraithblade star absolutely beastly.
I just meant the models themselves don't really interest me, I much prefer the shooty ones.
Never had a problem with making the 8 inch range work, like I said always put them in Wave serpents and always advance, use the stratagem if you have to. If they don't get much overwatch because the enemy is far away, no matter, they might not make the charge, and its not like the wraithcannons hitting on 6's are worth much more by comparison.
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Post by: Elian
Spartacus wrote:Yeah absolutely, the rules interactions make a Wraithblade star absolutely beastly.
I just meant the models themselves don't really interest me, I much prefer the shooty ones.
Never had a problem with making the 8 inch range work, like I said always put them in Wave serpents and always advance, use the stratagem if you have to. If they don't get much overwatch because the enemy is far away, no matter, they might not make the charge, and its not like the wraithcannons hitting on 6's are worth much more by comparison.
Got it my guy! 
My point was: to me the wraithguards are not competitive as the wraithblades but than again if i were in a competitive setting i would take shining spears instead, they fill a similar role in my opinion
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I like to only have 1 unit of 10 D-Cannons that way I can maximize my psykers. In the list I was talking about I also have a warlock with quicken if I really need to get the wraiths somewhere but he's usually used to get my Avengers to an objective. My list is also pure Ulthwe so the detachment doesn't work for me.
To me, blades are too expensive. For the 45 points they each cost I can get 3 Banshees + change (I prefer the Axe with the 4++ option). The normal wraithguard don't do too badly in HtH if they need to be there but since a person can't tie them down I'm not really worried about it.
This is my list:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [61 PL, 8CP, 994pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot [8CP] +
Battle-forged CP [3CP]
Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned
Detachment CP [5CP]
+ HQ [7 PL, 142pts] +
Autarch [4 PL, 77pts]: 2: An Eye on Distant Events, Craftworlds Warlord, Forceshield [6pts], Star Glaive [6pts]
. Shimmerplume of Achillrial
Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol
+ Troops [18 PL, 258pts] +
Dire Avengers [6 PL, 69pts]
. 5x Dire Avenger [55pts]: 5x Avenger Shuriken Catapult [15pts]
. Dire Avenger Exarch [14pts]: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults [6pts]
Dire Avengers [6 PL, 69pts]
. 5x Dire Avenger [55pts]: 5x Avenger Shuriken Catapult [15pts]
. Dire Avenger Exarch [14pts]: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults [6pts]
Rangers [6 PL, 120pts]: 10x Ranger [120pts]
+ Elites [20 PL, 380pts] +
Wraithguard [20 PL, 380pts]: Wraithcannon [150pts], 10x Wraithguard [230pts]
+ Heavy Support [16 PL, 214pts] +
Wraithlord [8 PL, 107pts]: Flamer [6pts], Flamer [6pts], Ghostglaive [10pts]
Wraithlord [8 PL, 107pts]: Flamer [6pts], Flamer [6pts], Ghostglaive [10pts]
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [13 PL, 1CP, 255pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot [1CP] +
Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned
Detachment CP [1CP]
+ HQ [13 PL, 255pts] +
Eldrad Ulthran [8 PL, 135pts]: 1. Guide, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune
Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol
Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 5. Quicken/Restrain, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade
++ Total: [74 PL, 9CP, 1,249pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe ( https://battlescribe.net)
I use the Autarch to lead the Wraithlords into HtH since he can't be shot with overwatch and the lords can really lay into units.
85390
Post by: bullyboy
Since we're talking wraiths, the new changes to the wraithseer has practically made the wraithlord worthless. For just a few points more than the wraithlord with sword he gets so much more it's just silly. Planning on converting 2 of my WLs into Seers.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
For me I don't think he's worth my swapping out. I'm paying 7 points more but I'm only losing the 5++ vs having 2 flamers. The psyker abilities don't really appeal to me and I'd rather use heavy slots over elite ones.
63936
Post by: Mmmpi
It's an HQ choice. So if you're running wraithlords, you can swap to a SC detachment and get a command point and a few deny the witch attempts.
92012
Post by: Argive
Where exactly is 5 coming from? Seems rather arbitrary. Automatically Appended Next Post: Spartacus wrote:I love me some D-Scythe wraithguard.
I have a list with 16 of them in Waveserpents. Its like an overload of tank type targets, because you really need to hit Wraithguard with antitank guns if you wanna take them out quickly.
The wraithcannons don't really interest me as it makes them so one-dimensional. The D-scythes only do a little bit worse vs vehicles and such, but obviously far better against smaller targets. When using the cannons I found they tended to get swarmed by infantry if my opponent couldn't shoot them to death, and even though you can fall back and still shoot, the screen is usually enough to block off my ability to get at the bigger targets they actually want to shoot.
The Dscythes have no such issue. If someone wants to charge them, they first have to eat some of the nastiest overwatch in the game, usually enough to pretty much wipe a squad of Guardsmen or Firewarriors for example. Much more difficult to put away and block because they're also more mobile, you can always advance and fire without any penalty, which mitigates the shorter range. More expensive of course, but I'd rather pay more points and do something than take the cannons and do nothing, I tried and just couldn't make them work.
What really makes it work IMO, whatever type you take, is that you have notoriously tough Wave Serpents full of powerful offensive units. Your opponent has to decide between waiting until they bail out and eating a round of nasty shooting at point blank, or committing to taking out the wave serpents before they get close which is super hard and pretty much a waste of their firepower in most instances. I find I win nearly every game when my opponent tries killing multiple wave serpents instead of my other stuff.
Wraithblades don't really interest me, but I see a lot of people doing great things with them using the wraith-host detachment.
Ok im glad it works for you but I have to disagree.
I took them against tau and they couldint reliably kill stealth suits or blob of fire warriors... Not enough shots to clear a horde and not enough dmg to kill elite infasntry. Also sure why anyone would charge them.
Wraith cannons D6 damage at least means they can take down elite infantry and tanks. For the points they cost are way too weak in my opinion.
12804
Post by: Cpt. Icanus
The issue with wraithcannons is: by the time you factor in the to hit roll the damage mostly equals out, scythes never overkill and have a greater effective threat range when advancing full 6". The only niche where wraithcannons are objectively/ statistically better is deepstrike from webway to delete a large threat and if you're hurt for 15 pts. Otherwise scythes are superior against most targets.
That said i use my scythe guard a lot and they are hit and miss real bad. And i will never again field them without a serpent
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I don't see overkill as a problem. Underkill on the other hand is a problem.
92012
Post by: Argive
Im going to run axes instead of blades next game to change it up and see how they do. Im liking the D3 damage. will need enhance tho for sure
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Run the 2 vibro cannons. Mixed bag not sure how I feel about them yet . Stopped pox walkers advancing which arguably won me the game, but not sure about their performance apart from that. So will play them again. I think once I get a third one it will be atrue test.
85390
Post by: bullyboy
Leo_the_Rat wrote:For me I don't think he's worth my swapping out. I'm paying 7 points more but I'm only losing the 5++ vs having 2 flamers. The psyker abilities don't really appeal to me and I'd rather use heavy slots over elite ones.
It's not just a difference of a 5++, the wraithseer has 2 more wounds, reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles in assault, it has a decent psychic power that helps your other wraith units charge or gives a 6+++.
With those benefits, it costs 100pts vs 95pts of the wraithlord with sword.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
I personally don't like the sword. I always find i end up using the fists instead in cc. Flat 3 dmg at str 7 ap-3 just seems better than str 9 ap-4 d6 dmg when you consider most things that end up in cc either planned on being in cc so have an invunerable save making the -3ap vs -4ap moot or are going to get completly wrecked with either weapon. But flat 3 is reliable, i will always take a garunteed 3 dmg over d6, sure you have a 50% chance of doing more dmg than 3 but you have a 33.3% chance of not and to me i will save my 10 pts and put them towards flamers or a bright lance or something instead.
112649
Post by: grouchoben
The difference in S is what you're primarily paying for, and it's a really big one. S9 is the gold standard.
Against the common T8 3+ profile (Knights, Russes, Wlords themselves, etc) fists do 2.2 damage on average. Sword does 6.2, so yeah, three times as effective against tanks profiles.
Also unlocks 2s to wound on most infantry. But there are niche cases where fists are best - against things like custodes the fist profile is perfect.
92012
Post by: Argive
Azuza001 wrote:I personally don't like the sword. I always find i end up using the fists instead in cc. Flat 3 dmg at str 7 ap-3 just seems better than str 9 ap-4 d6 dmg when you consider most things that end up in cc either planned on being in cc so have an invunerable save making the -3ap vs -4ap moot or are going to get completly wrecked with either weapon. But flat 3 is reliable, i will always take a garunteed 3 dmg over d6, sure you have a 50% chance of doing more dmg than 3 but you have a 33.3% chance of not and to me i will save my 10 pts and put them towards flamers or a bright lance or something instead.
I like the sword for the option of being able to wound things with T7+.
Last game wraithlord was rampaging through bligh haulers dicing them up with a sword. It was glorious. Plus it looks effin cool!
12804
Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Leo_the_Rat wrote:I don't see overkill as a problem. Underkill on the other hand is a problem.
Shoot a squad of hellblasters with 5 Wraithguard. You'll get 3 or 4 hits with the cannons and around ten with the scythes. Talk about underkill when your d6 damage weapons fail to kill a primaris in one go. And, let's face it, primaris are far from the scariest thing out there. You take your cannons vs underkill, i'll prefer the reliability of d-scythes anyday.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
The thing is, I'm not hunting Primaris with my wraithguard. I'm hunting heavy vehicles and titanic units. Things with 10+ Wds and T8. I also use a unit of 10.
Let's put this on my playground and say we're facing a Castellan: My unit hits on a 3 and rerolls 1's (because I can afford the 65 point spirit seer due to less base cost). I'm going to hit 10*.66 + 3.4*.66 = 8.84 times I wound .66 = 5.84 vs 4++ = 2.92 * 3.5 = 10.22 total damage
Your unit will hit 20 times and wound 13.2 vs 4++=6.6 total damage.
Is the Castellan down from either of these attacks? No, but, I'm a lot closer to finishing it than you are. I'm also more survivable due to the fact that I can have either cover or protect on my unit and you have to pay extra for that advantage.
106383
Post by: JNAProductions
It's 7/9 hits for 3+ RR1s, not 8/9.
So that's 7.78 hits, 5.19 wounds, 2.59 unsaved, 9.07 damage.
Also, you rounded down on the D-Scythes when you really should've rounded up. 6.67 is the average-still considerably less, but do your math right.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
sorry and thank you for the corrections.
106383
Post by: JNAProductions
Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.
109576
Post by: Karhedron
 JNAProductions wrote:Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.
Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.
Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.
106383
Post by: JNAProductions
First crack at a list, found here.
92012
Post by: Argive
 Karhedron wrote: JNAProductions wrote:Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.
Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.
Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.
Not against multiwound targets imo. Against single wound targets scythes arent too bad but duno why youd want to bother burning 60pts of chaff with a 215 point unit churing out -4 ap shots....
Dscythes should be d3 dmg.
106383
Post by: JNAProductions
Argive wrote: Karhedron wrote: JNAProductions wrote:Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.
Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.
Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.
Not against multiwound targets imo. Against single wound targets scythes arent too bad but duno why youd want to bother burning 60pts of chaff with a 215 point unit churing out -4 ap shots....
Dscythes should be d3 dmg.
That'd make them pretty much 100% better than the Cannons.
Which, considering they're more expensive... Might be okay.
5207
Post by: Spartacus
Argive wrote: Karhedron wrote: JNAProductions wrote:Yeah. D-Cannons are still vastly better than the Scythes against big targets, though.
Not vastly better, only slightly better due to the fact that Scythes auto-hit. Against large targets, D-Cannons are 17% more effective. Against infantry, Scythes are 100% more effective than cannons.
Given that Scythes are only slightly worse than Cannons against large targets, much better against infantry, better if you want to Advance and far better at overwatch, I prefer Scythes.
Not against multiwound targets imo. Against single wound targets scythes arent too bad but duno why youd want to bother burning 60pts of chaff with a 215 point unit churing out -4 ap shots....
Dscythes should be d3 dmg.
Sometimes that's all they'll have to shoot. If your opponent has a castellan they are sure as heck gonna have a screen for it. All that math showing how the cannons are 17 percent more effective vs tanks is nice, but in practice no decent player is going to let your 10 Wraiths within 12 inches of his Knight for a couple of turns at least. It's an issue with any short range antitank this edition.
As I briefly mentioned earlier, my experience with Cannons Wraithguard is that they.just get bogged down and achieve nothing all game. They'll get screened out of range of targets that they want to shoot and their 5 inch move won't let them get around whatever's blocking them. Your opponent just ignores them once he figures this out. Scythes on the other hand are good against whatever is thrown against them, so they will have to be dealt with at some point. And they cant easily be smothered with chaff thanks to assualt.
At the end of the day, neither variety of Wraithguard is gonna be the most optimal choice for a CWE army if we're talking about cut-throat competitiveness, but my list with 16 scythes works because its a skew list, rather than the effectiveness of the Wraithguard. All those Wraithguard plus 6 tanks to deal with taxes the antitank of most armies, and along with with Alaitoc or Ulthwe your durability wins you the battle of attrition.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
While I agree with your sentiment I think you are being a little too simplistic. No one should be wasting an anti-tank unit on chaff that's why you have anti-chaff units to supplement them. In our (Eldar) repertoire we have Avengers and Guardians. While the wraithguard only have a 5" move we have quicken that lets them move 10" and still attack with no penalty to hit (with a 12" range I think you should be able to get within range to shoot at a large target). If your opponent is screening 12" in front of his big guys either he's way into your territory or his big guy is way out of the action.
In my army I have 1 unit of 10 guard. I usually have protect and cover on it and I use Ulthwe as a Craftworld. When I want to be exceptionally mean I put Fortune on the unit as well to bump up that feel no pain effect.
I don't think that you can talk about units in a vacuum. That is if I use unit A then he will counter with unit Z. You have to have a general role for every unit in your army and be prepared to make things up on the fly if you can't have them do what you expected them to do. No tanks then go for his heavy Wd units, that sort of thing.
5207
Post by: Spartacus
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't think that you can talk about units in a vacuum. That is if I use unit A then he will counter with unit Z. You have to have a general role for every unit in your army and be prepared to make things up on the fly if you can't have them do what you expected them to do. No tanks then go for his heavy Wd units, that sort of thing.
But thats exactly my point, Cannon WGuard are not versatile and do poorly compared to Scythes when not shooting at their preferred target type. Against anything other than big tanks Dscythe guard are superior in damage, while also being more mobile, immune to enemy hit modifiers and more resistant to being charged. I feel like all the arguments for Cannon Guard are doing exactly that, describing a scenario in a vacuum where they're just expected to be able to deal damage directly to high value targets, in spite of all the significant challenges you now face by losing the autohitting multi-shot guns. If you pour all those psychic buffs onto a unit of scythe guard you're also going to get better results, so thats not really a vaild point when comparing the 2.
Castellans, Basilisks and Leman russes can sit in the back corner and still be in the fight just fine also. When you have to cut through 80 guardsmen before you can get to them, it helps when your Wraithguard can contribute to what your shuriken guns are doing.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I don't know about their lack of versitality. I played against a necron player and rather than shooting at his heavy vehicles I wiped out his 8 bikers and then a unit of 5 destroyers. I think versatility is more the domain of the player rather than the unit.
To be fair your experiences are obviously different than mine. I don't think that you're wrong I just think that wraithcannons have a nice place in an army as well.
I think that we can both agree that the wraithguard platform is very nice. It's what we put on it that makes it really interesting to me.
5207
Post by: Spartacus
Leo_the_Rat wrote:I don't know about their lack of versitality. I played against a necron player and rather than shooting at his heavy vehicles I wiped out his 8 bikers and then a unit of 5 destroyers. I think versatility is more the domain of the player rather than the unit.
To be fair your experiences are obviously different than mine. I don't think that you're wrong I just think that wraithcannons have a nice place in an army as well.
I think that we can both agree that the wraithguard platform is very nice. It's what we put on it that makes it really interesting to me.
Yeah I can definitely agree there. You do pay a a lot extra for the D-Scythe, when in fact its the wraithguard themselves which are the real strength of the unit. When your infantry have the defensive statline of a light vehicle its a fantastic platform to build on.
Hopefully most players have the opportunity to try both and pick whatever suits their list and meta. (protip: cut the end of the gun 'barrels' and drill a wire into each one, then drill a hole into the end of the pieces, and coat the wire in gloss varnish to make it a bit sticky. You can then swap just the gun barrels out to represent each gun as you please, without having to mess around with magnets)
92012
Post by: Argive
Ultimately blades are better than eithet :p
5207
Post by: Spartacus
Only in a deathstar where you can buff the heck out of them.
And if we're talking deathstars, Shining Spears are better than Wraithblades.
92012
Post by: Argive
Spartacus wrote:
Only in a deathstar where you can buff the heck out of them.
And if we're talking deathstars, Shining Spears are better than Wraithblades.
I compared blades to guards saying they are more efficient, and you compare blades to spears ? Ok....I see.
Anyway, they are not really buff intensive IMO. I find a good way to run them is alitoic, a small unit out of a wave serpent, with enhance psychic power from a spirit seer who will also provide re-roll 1 so you don't even need an autarch and supreme disdain for 1 CP if you got it spare. I don't even bother with protect.
I tried a bone singer in this outfit for either heal or extra normal smite which was fun (will use again when singer is re-assembled and painted after stripping.). This potentially offers 3 d3 MW (from shield and 2x smites) as well as a charge.
Ona different note, I found my army is lacking a bit of AT. Obviously crimson hunters/hemlocks are the top dog when it comes to AT but what do people like to use? My unit of 5 reapers with a tempest launcher seemed a bit underwhelming. I was up against malefic blighthaulers and those things are scary tough...
109576
Post by: Karhedron
Argive wrote:Ona different note, I found my army is lacking a bit of AT. Obviously crimson hunters/hemlocks are the top dog when it comes to AT but what do people like to use? My unit of 5 reapers with a tempest launcher seemed a bit underwhelming. I was up against malefic blighthaulers and those things are scary tough...
Removing Death Guard daemon engines is like trying to get curry sauce off a white table clothe. Not impossible but you need the right tools and it will take a while.
Actually, Reapers are one of the most efficient things to take down Blight Haulers. S8 Vs T7 means you are wounding on a 3+, the AP-2 is exactly the right amount to avoid them getting any mileage from their invulnerable saves. Trouble is that they get their 5++ and a 5+++. It is not that Reapers are bad against them, they are just insanely tough against anything that doesn't spam Mortal Wounds.
In general I start my anti-tank with a squad of 5 Reapers and a pair of Fire Prisms (Linked Fire is great). I usually have some back-up sources of AT such as an Autarch on Jetbikes with laser lance and sometimes a pair of Wraithlords who can shoot decently well and chop things up with swords if necessary.
There is not much in the game that will delete DG Daemon Engines quickly, that is pretty much their raison d'etre. Volacno weapons, MWs and Captain smash can chew through them but not much else. Try to kill one asap as this will rob them of their Tri-Lobed rule which degrades their offense a fair bit. Just keep plugging away but don't get distracted from other dangerous elements. It is easy to fixate on daemon engines while the DG get into range for their assorted nasty attacks or just pile Pox Walkers onto the Objectives.
92012
Post by: Argive
Karhedron wrote: Argive wrote:Ona different note, I found my army is lacking a bit of AT. Obviously crimson hunters/hemlocks are the top dog when it comes to AT but what do people like to use? My unit of 5 reapers with a tempest launcher seemed a bit underwhelming. I was up against malefic blighthaulers and those things are scary tough...
Removing Death Guard daemon engines is like trying to get curry sauce off a white table clothe. Not impossible but you need the right tools and it will take a while.
Actually, Reapers are one of the most efficient things to take down Blight Haulers. S8 Vs T7 means you are wounding on a 3+, the AP-2 is exactly the right amount to avoid them getting any mileage from their invulnerable saves. Trouble is that they get their 5++ and a 5+++. It is not that Reapers are bad against them, they are just insanely tough against anything that doesn't spam Mortal Wounds.
In general I start my anti-tank with a squad of 5 Reapers and a pair of Fire Prisms (Linked Fire is great). I usually have some back-up sources of AT such as an Autarch on Jetbikes with laser lance and sometimes a pair of Wraithlords who can shoot decently well and chop things up with swords if necessary.
There is not much in the game that will delete DG Daemon Engines quickly, that is pretty much their raison d'etre. Volacno weapons, MWs and Captain smash can chew through them but not much else. Try to kill one asap as this will rob them of their Tri-Lobed rule which degrades their offense a fair bit. Just keep plugging away but don't get distracted from other dangerous elements. It is easy to fixate on daemon engines while the DG get into range for their assorted nasty attacks or just pile Pox Walkers onto the Objectives.
I had an extra reaper shot from my autarch but decided to be sniping sorcerer instead. Also, reapers need guide... re-reoll ones alone from autarch are not reliable, I got greedy and gave guide to another unit, lesson learned lol. My WL ate 6W on overwatch facepalm:  . so wasn't really effective in slaying a blight hauler in CC due to lowered WS but kept them tied up for the crucial turn and popped one in their combat turn finaly.
We played narrowing the search so, that was bringing them closer to me making the charge inevitable so that really helped. The vibro cannons did surprising good work on plinking off wounds. The blight haulers are really good. Hate those things! lol. Victory was only achieved by a narrow margin and Wave Serpent surviving shooting on 1 W! lol.
124269
Post by: Elian
We played narrowing the search so, that was bringing them closer to me making the charge inevitable so that really helped. The vibro cannons did surprising good work on plinking off wounds. The blight haulers are really good. Hate those things! lol. Victory was only achieved by a narrow margin and Wave Serpent surviving shooting on 1 W! lol.
Vibro cannons are insane they cost so little and they can do so much, i fielded 9 the other day scary stuff! 
92012
Post by: Argive
What were you up against ?
124269
Post by: Elian
I was up against a lot of those chicken looking thingy from the mechanicum 12 wounds a piece a lot of dakka. they were scary too!
937
Post by: sturguard
Hey guys, I am hoping you can help me build a list around my Skathach Wraithknight with inferno lances. I know its not the optimal choice, but evidently with the Wraith Host and Spiritseer, I can give him Faolchus Wing or the Shiftshroud of Alanssar so when the Wraithknight deep strikes in, I can use the strategem that gives him a 4+. So what to surround him with? I dont really want to buy any more models, so I was hoping you could sort through what I have and see if we can come up with something fairly competitive (not the biggest deal). So I was thinking
Farseer on bike
Warlock on bike
20 guardians with 2 shuriken cannons (dont need to include cannons if we want to save the 20 points)
5 rangers
5 rangers
Autaurch with Wings
Spiritseer
5 dire avengers
5 dire avengers
5 dire avengers
Skathach Wraithknight with inferno lances
Now, here are my options to add in:
6 shining spears with exarch and lance
2 wraithlords with brightlances and glaives
2-3 waveserpents?
5 wraithguard with wraithcannon
3 warwalkers
other factors- I could drop the second battalion as I dont own all those dire avengers anyways. The windriders could simply be windriders (I can swap). Any focus on a list you could give me would be great, obviously the wraithknight is at the heart of it.
Thanks
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, any help guys would be appreciated. Im the guy that plays like once a month or two and just dont have the insight as to what works and doesnt from playing lots of games. Thank you
92012
Post by: Argive
How many points ?
937
Post by: sturguard
2000 pts
92012
Post by: Argive
My first thoughts are something along this line. Sadly this would mean investing in another warlock. They are the cheapest HQ money wise so you should be able to pick a used one up on the cheap-
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [44 PL, 8CP, 847pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot [8CP] +
Battle-forged CP [3CP]
Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft
Detachment CP [5CP]
+ HQ [11 PL, 199pts] +
Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 132pts]: 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult [2pts], Witchblade
Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult [2pts], Witchblade
+ Troops [15 PL, 310pts] +
Guardian Defenders [9 PL, 190pts]: 20x Guardian Defender [160pts]
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform [15pts]: Shuriken Cannon [10pts]
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform [15pts]: Shuriken Cannon [10pts]
Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger [60pts]
Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger [60pts]
+ Fast Attack [10 PL, 206pts] +
Shining Spears [10 PL, 206pts]
. 5x Shining Spear [170pts]: 5x Laser Lance [40pts], 5x Twin Shuriken Catapult [10pts]
. Shining Spear Exarch [36pts]: Star Lance [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult [2pts]
+ Heavy Support [8 PL, 132pts] +
War Walkers [8 PL, 132pts]
. War Walker [4 PL, 66pts]: Starcannon [13pts], Starcannon [13pts]
. War Walker [4 PL, 66pts]: Starcannon [13pts], Starcannon [13pts]
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [61 PL, , 1,152pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot [] +
Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft
Detachment CP [1CP]
Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Wraith Host [-1CP]
+ HQ [9 PL, 219pts] +
Autarch [4 PL, 99pts]: Banshee Mask, Craftworlds Warlord, Forceshield [6pts], Reaper Launcher [22pts], Star Glaive [6pts]
Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol
Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 1. Conceal/Reveal, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade
+ Elites [11 PL, 190pts] +
Wraithguard [11 PL, 190pts]: Wraithcannon [75pts], 5x Wraithguard [115pts]
+ Lord of War [32 PL, 566pts] +
Skathach Wraithknight [32 PL, 566pts]: 2x Inferno Lance [120pts], 2x Starcannon [26pts]
+ Dedicated Transport [9 PL, 177pts] +
Wave Serpent [9 PL, 177pts]: Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Star Engines [10pts], Twin Shuriken Cannon [17pts], Vectored Engines [10pts]
++ Total: [105 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++
Give falochus wing and mark of incoprable hunter tait for the autarch for sniping shenanigans. .
The tactics would be to zip the wave serpent with the wraith guard inside along with the two psykers up the board towards the nastiest unit. The shining spears with seer and warlock bombing towards the other flank to try and spread the enemy out. Could also change doom to guide.
Keep the knight and guardians in reserve and possibly the rangers depending on the mission. T2 drop the knight wherever you spirit seer is with a blob of the wraithguard and the guardian to wherever they can do the most damage.
I would say in this case the spears are more of a distraction carnifex in this case as you want the wave serpent deliver the wraith guard to where they can do damage. You wont get re-roll ones without a bike-tarch. and the winged option is too expensive.
Alternatively you could drop the reaper launcher from the autarch, change him to autarch with swooping hawk wing and give him the extra movement trait so he can keep up with the spear blob for the re-roll ones.
If you don't get first turn you need to hide your units back.
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Post by: sturguard
Dang, I thought they had brought down the wraithknight to be comparable with regular knights?
92012
Post by: Argive
sturguard wrote:Dang, I thought they had brought down the wraithknight to be comparable with regular knights?
Ha no....We aren't imperium, we don't get no love or even a 4++ on our mech things...We get a points tax for being affiliated with some soup faction rhyming with ynarri tho!  But we also get almost broken psychic jets which is pretty wild.. The scatch knight can DS which is a big deal. Not sure how many titanic can do that so that's pretty cool. He's more expensive than a normal knight obviously.
937
Post by: sturguard
So just a few thoughts-
Not sold on the shuriken cannons on the guardians for 20 points.The catapults already give you 4 shots for free, so you get 2 extra shots for 20 pts. Double that and you get a dire avenger squad. I mean you are looking for 6's to wound anyways whether its with a catapult or a cannon, the str 6 really doesnt mean anything. I have the cannons, I have used them before, but in this case, I think saving the 20 pts is a better idea.
Wave Serpent- that's alot of upgrades, I thought one of the best things about serpents is they were fairly cheap, I think we could drop the star engines and save 10 pts.
For those 30 pts, I could take the old book winged autarch for 117 and I could put the second warlock on a bike, then finally give the Shroud to the Spiritseer so he can walk from the shadows right next to the wraithknight and use the stratagem.
I could put the wraithguard in the webway with the guardians and get all the points back for the wave serpent. If I drop the wave serpent and the warlock, I could add in 2 wraithlords. Not necessarily the best units but brightlances could add some extra long ranged firepower, or I could make them bare bones and just have them run at the enemy.
Are war walkers any good in this edition? I thought they were pretty fragile?
5207
Post by: Spartacus
sturguard wrote:So just a few thoughts-
Not sold on the shuriken cannons on the guardians for 20 points.The catapults already give you 4 shots for free, so you get 2 extra shots for 20 pts. Double that and you get a dire avenger squad. I mean you are looking for 6's to wound anyways whether its with a catapult or a cannon, the str 6 really doesnt mean anything. I have the cannons, I have used them before, but in this case, I think saving the 20 pts is a better idea.
Wave Serpent- that's alot of upgrades, I thought one of the best things about serpents is they were fairly cheap, I think we could drop the star engines and save 10 pts.
For those 30 pts, I could take the old book winged autarch for 117 and I could put the second warlock on a bike, then finally give the Shroud to the Spiritseer so he can walk from the shadows right next to the wraithknight and use the stratagem.
I could put the wraithguard in the webway with the guardians and get all the points back for the wave serpent. If I drop the wave serpent and the warlock, I could add in 2 wraithlords. Not necessarily the best units but brightlances could add some extra long ranged firepower, or I could make them bare bones and just have them run at the enemy.
Are war walkers any good in this edition? I thought they were pretty fragile?
You pay for the heavy weapon platform more for the platform itself than the weapon. Guardians are pretty poorly protected with their 5+ save, or 4+ in cover. But if you make that weapon platform tank the small arms fire first with its 2 wounds and 3+ save (2+ with protect or cover), it will save you way more than its own points worth of guardians. The extra strength and shots is just a bonus.
I'd also always vouch for cheap Wave serpents. Their strength is their durability relative to their cost, and you want your enemy to blunt their guns by shooting at it. If it has another -1 to hit from Vectored Engines, a 6+++ from spirit stones etc, they wont bother to target it, and you'll waste those extra points, as well as remove one of the WS's main functions.
War walkers are not as bad as they look from what I've seen. Nothing amazing but their 5++ makes them kind of tricky to take out, you have to throw more anti-tank than you think at them to kill one. Again, keep them cheap and mobile so they can move to and sit on objectives. I can't see them being a massive threat compared to other Eldar heavy support unless you throw heaps of buffs onto them, but certainly not a waste of points.
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Post by: Sterling191
I'm a big fan of WWs, especially after CA2018. They're a fast, cheap, relatively durable platform (Alaitoc -1, T6, 6W 5++) that can innately deep strike. They wont carry a gunline by themselves, but in support of a larger force they get things done.
Two favorite loadouts are twin shuricannons for skirmishing (remember, they have battle focus) or twin starcannons for light gunship work.
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Post by: Elian
WW's w Starcannon and biel tan warlod traits are beast
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Post by: Shadenuat
Guardian platform is a defensive pointsink. You should almost always take it, if you want it cheaper, can put SL on it.
92012
Post by: Argive
sturguard wrote:So just a few thoughts-
Not sold on the shuriken cannons on the guardians for 20 points.The catapults already give you 4 shots for free, so you get 2 extra shots for 20 pts. Double that and you get a dire avenger squad. I mean you are looking for 6's to wound anyways whether its with a catapult or a cannon, the str 6 really doesnt mean anything. I have the cannons, I have used them before, but in this case, I think saving the 20 pts is a better idea.
Wave Serpent- that's alot of upgrades, I thought one of the best things about serpents is they were fairly cheap, I think we could drop the star engines and save 10 pts.
For those 30 pts, I could take the old book winged autarch for 117 and I could put the second warlock on a bike, then finally give the Shroud to the Spiritseer so he can walk from the shadows right next to the wraithknight and use the stratagem.
I could put the wraithguard in the webway with the guardians and get all the points back for the wave serpent. If I drop the wave serpent and the warlock, I could add in 2 wraithlords. Not necessarily the best units but brightlances could add some extra long ranged firepower, or I could make them bare bones and just have them run at the enemy.
Are war walkers any good in this edition? I thought they were pretty fragile?
1. As mentioned the guardian platforms are there more for albeiative wounds and to shoot at stuff further away. Dont forget screening is a thing...
2. If you got an idea for that the 10 points grom the upgrade would make a difference... go ahead. Extra movement and durability is nifty. People wont shoot at an empty serpents. Ppl will shoot at a serpent filled with guard to kill the guard.
3. Thats 3cp youre looking to spend to put 2 things on the web way... youd start the game with 5... 2 for the invuln strat. Leaves you with 3 for the rest of the battle.
Play whatever you want man. Advice has been given. Up to you what you do with it!
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Post by: sturguard
Don't misunderstand, I appreciate the advice, I am just trying to generate some more discussion.
So if I drop the wave serpent, I could trade that into 3 units of 5 dire avengers which gives me 5 more command points, obviously 3 would be going to the webway, so Id have 10 more for the game. Worth it? I would still have 57 pts leftover from the trade, so I could add another warwalker which would kind of mitigate some of the loss of firepower from the serpent? Thoughts?
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Post by: grouchoben
Can I get everyone's opinions on Shining Spears in their current condition?
Best Craftworld still seems to be Alaitoc, as stacking up to -2 to hit is a big jump in survivability.
What are people's deployment and movement priorities for Spears? How do you avoid their immediate death? What's your priority list for buffs, i.e. which one buff do you think they can't function successfully without? Do they benefit from being run alongside any particular units?
Given that soul bursting shenanigans are dead and gone, is there a case to be made for MSU Spears now, to maximise laser lances, instead of the traditional super-buffed big unit?
Finally, do you think there's a case now for them to be taken Biel-tan now, to DS and young-king Strat them into cc, instead of dodging shots on T1 with Alaitoc?
92012
Post by: Argive
Seems like a sound logic. Try it out.
However, are you still looking for the wraith host detatchement? Also you dont have enough HQs to field 2 battalions and a supreme command.
As far as I understand, both the target wraith construct unit and the spiritseer have to be in the same specialist detatchment if you looking for the invuln strat. I could be wrong here but thats how i read it.
Whenever I tried to build a list with a knights/specialist detatchement i found dual battalion seems necessary but then takes up too many points and then youre not left with enough to offer threat saturation. Our troops suck..especialy small squads. Minimalist dual battalions dont seem worth it.
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Post by: grouchoben
I think, at least in Alaitoc, Rangers are solid, Avengers are acceptable but have to LoS deny a lot to stand a chance of survival – but *ahem* I have to say I love 24 storm guardians with morale immunity.
People seem to hate on them because their damage output is uninspiring. Well yeah, they're 1pt more than a cultist. But their main benefit is board control, screening, tying up in cc, and stubbornness... When I started with them I was obsessed with buffing them to be damage dealers with black guardians, ambush of blades, enhance, etc, etc. But now I much prefer them running just with a morale-immunity character and one buff (fortune or protect). They gum up the board something beautiful.
So Havocs with a chaos lord, Votlw and endless cacophony are pretty much the best chaff clearer in the game right now. But here's how they play out against an Alaitoc storm blob with their shield Strat and fortune on them: 10 killed. so It'll take that 3cp-a-turn premium unit three turns to wipe the storm blob, that's very solid.
I think 144pts is very competitive for what they bring to CWE.
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Post by: Karhedron
sturguard wrote:
Are war walkers any good in this edition? I thought they were pretty fragile?
They are not bad and their multiple heavy weapons make them a great candidate for Guide. Bring them in from Reserves so your opponent cannot knock them out T1 and that is a lot of firepower they can lay down. The 5++ is just enough to frustrate the occasional anti-tank shot.
92012
Post by: Argive
grouchoben wrote:Can I get everyone's opinions on Shining Spears in their current condition? Best Craftworld still seems to be Alaitoc, as stacking up to -2 to hit is a big jump in survivability. What are people's deployment and movement priorities for Spears? How do you avoid their immediate death? What's your priority list for buffs, i.e. which one buff do you think they can't function successfully without? Do they benefit from being run alongside any particular units? Given that soul bursting shenanigans are dead and gone, is there a case to be made for MSU Spears now, to maximise laser lances, instead of the traditional super-buffed big unit? Finally, do you think there's a case now for them to be taken Biel-tan now, to DS and young-king Strat them into cc, instead of dodging shots on T1 with Alaitoc?
Thats a tough one. Yeah alitoic still seesm the best... If I was going to run bieltan bikes with minimal support, id just go with bare bones windriders with cats in many multiple blobs of 3 using cover where possible. But it depends what else you are bringing. I think spears are solid but they are now bit overcosted. (Like everything else in the codex apart from the fliers and wave serpent) I probably wouldn't run one deathstar unit of spears as Alitoic. But 2 smaller blobs of 4-5. I don't like death-star blob tactic. Prefer showing lots of different threats to make target priority an absolute nightmare.. Two blobs of 4 spears hiding an autarch and seer council should mean that even if one blob is wiped T1, the enemy still has to contend with the second blob which you can buff in subsequent turn.. Buff wise I think protect, then conceal as secondary, Seer wise - fortune & Doom if you going max defense and have an autarch for re-roll ones or guide & doom if you dont. I like the sound of 1 blob of 5 spears as saim-hann. Nova lance for the autarch, Matchless agility & raging wind strat for spears if you didint get first turn and they are alive, and then lots of 3 man scat bikes units to fill detachment. . That way the spears are there but the rest of your army does not have to be built around them and you can have lots of other threats. Automatically Appended Next Post: grouchoben wrote:I think, at least in Alaitoc, Rangers are solid, Avengers are acceptable but have to LoS deny a lot to stand a chance of survival – but *ahem* I have to say I love 24 storm guardians with morale immunity. People seem to hate on them because their damage output is uninspiring. Well yeah, they're 1pt more than a cultist. But their main benefit is board control, screening, tying up in cc, and stubbornness... When I started with them I was obsessed with buffing them to be damage dealers with black guardians, ambush of blades, enhance, etc, etc. But now I much prefer them running just with a morale-immunity character and one buff (fortune or protect). They gum up the board something beautiful. So Havocs with a chaos lord, Votlw and endless cacophony are pretty much the best chaff clearer in the game right now. But here's how they play out against an Alaitoc storm blob with their shield Strat and fortune on them: 10 killed. so It'll take that 3cp-a-turn premium unit three turns to wipe the storm blob, that's very solid. I think 144pts is very competitive for what they bring to CWE.
I have to say that I've been enjoying 2 ulthwe rangers units, with a blob of guardians so that I can field Eldrad and benefit from blakc guardians and they do great. Makes for an efficient battalion and doesn't feel like that much of a tax for CP... The inbuilt -1 is tempting enough to make people waste shots and go for them but not useless to be irrelevant. The additional 6+++ compliments it nice. The more I think about it the more avengers need to be taken as Alitoic in max 2/3 blobs and with Asurmen & avatar. By that point it gets really expensive for what it offers because asurmen and the avatar cost a premium! Seems also valid with alitoic autarch instead of the avatar but that only offer 6" fearless which doesn't give enough spread on the board..Its a toss up though and have to try either of those in a game so im talking purely from a paper exercise here..
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Post by: kryczek
@Argive I'm building up to trying a variation on this using Iyanden. I'm going for 3 big squad's with shields on the exarch's backed up with an Autarch and a warlock/spiritseer with protect. It's not as good but it's a damn sight cheaper. They only lose 1 to morale. Have a 5++. Re-roll 1's.
What do you think of that?
92012
Post by: Argive
kryczek wrote:@Argive I'm building up to trying a variation on this using Iyanden. I'm going for 3 big squad's with shields on the exarch's backed up with an Autarch and a warlock/spiritseer with protect. It's not as good but it's a damn sight cheaper. They only lose 1 to morale. Have a 5++. Re-roll 1's.
What do you think of that?
You mean Iyanded battalion with 3 blobs of DA's?
I think if you put in units that would benefit most from Iyanden such as knights/ tanks/wraithblades/Lords & psytronome, then I could potentialy see a Iyanded battalion..I wouldn't say it strikes me as the most optimal. But hey, it could work, I say try it and maybe it will work for your roster and play style
I have a feeling think you'd loose more models from lack of -1 to hit than you'd save in leadership rolls.
I'm no good with mathhammer so someone else would need to step in and calculate against say a squad of intercessors/bolters.
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Post by: JNAProductions
T3, 4+/5++ save, Ld 8, right?
Against Bolters...
Iyanden take 1 Casualty per 4.5 shots.
Alatioc take 1 Casualty per 6 shots.
Since the max squad size is 10, that means to wipe the squad you need to do 7 Casualties on average (Alatioc) or 9 (Iyanden).
That's 42 shots as compared to 40.5.
Alatioc is better.
Against Bolt Rifles...
Iyanden requires 3.375 shots per casualty
Alatioc requires 4.5
That's 31.5 as compared to 30.375.
Alatioc is still better.
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Post by: kryczek
Yes DA's my apologies. I'm aiming for this to be my troops for my Iyanden wraithhost. With a wraithknight and a couple of wraithlord's i can't afford Asurmen and an Avatar. Cheers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
@JNA yes that's true but it's 200+ points cheaper. Cheers for the math as I never checked.
120012
Post by: Alex_85
Next week I will be in a little trip and I will play one game against an Imperial player. It will be my first game using non Imperium so I am a bit lost. The army is not mine, it is from one of the other players. They gived me a list with the units, most of them painted as alaitoc (-1 to hit?).
Farseer and Farseer on bike
Autarch and Autarch on bike
Warlocks on bike, 2 of them
20 Rangers
30 guardians with a couple of platforms
6 war walkers
9 shinning spears
6 Dark Reapers
2 Falcons
2 Fire Prism
5 support weapons
10 banshee
6 wraithguards
3 wave serpent
2 nighwing
1 phoenix jet
I would like to play them as Alaitoc as well, but I am confused aboud the list because I never played them. Only really idea I have for sure are the shining spears with a Farseer on bike for buff them. I would appreciate any help for a list.
92012
Post by: Argive
Thats a solid roster. Not sure about the FW planes as i cant remember their points or rules. What points are you playing?
120012
Post by: Alex_85
Argive wrote:Thats a solid roster. Not sure about the FW planes as i cant remember their points or rules. What points are you playing?
1750 CA 18. I only know that he will be playing Imperium.
The Nightwing is 138points
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Argive wrote:Thats a solid roster. Not sure about the FW planes as i cant remember their points or rules. What points are you playing?
There were some nightwings in top placing competitive lists this month.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Nightwings are fantastic. Theyre basically Craftworld Razorwings, but with access to RoB/RoF support (plus the ever delicious Alaitoc -2 and Wings of Khaine double pivot).
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Post by: Spartacus
They're solid but have to compete for a spot with the AAA grade Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, which is a nice plastic kit also. The hitting on a 4+ with brightlances is what puts me off really.
124269
Post by: Elian
4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable
121068
Post by: Sterling191
 Elian wrote:4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable
Pretty sure he's talking about the Nightwing which is a 3+ BS but no POTMS equivalent. The standard CTM helps to mitigate the problem, but it requires positioning (which isnt always an option).
I'm not going to argue that the CHE and Hemlock arent exquisitely capable units, and that in direct head to head competition they bring things to the table that the Nightwing can't. Rather, that the latter is a cheaper but still quite capable option in the Flyer role.
124269
Post by: Elian
Gotcha!
Didn't get it at first thanks
Personally i'll never switch my CHE for something like the Nightwing it doesn't seem as reliable as the others (Hemlock CHE)
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
Nightwing hits on 2+ against closest target and if it declared it when retracting wings.
I generally think of Nightwing as 2 Vypers which actually are good and have ton of extra abilities. (I actually own this old piece of resin junk lol)
45962
Post by: Gangrel767
Shadenuat wrote:Nightwing hits on 2+ against closest target and if it declared it when retracting wings.
I generally think of Nightwing as 2 Vypers which actually are good and have ton of extra abilities. (I actually own this old piece of resin junk lol)
To clarify -
Nightwing is BS 3+
it can get a +1 to hit, but loses it's hard to hit rules.
92012
Post by: Argive
 Gangrel767 wrote: Shadenuat wrote:Nightwing hits on 2+ against closest target and if it declared it when retracting wings. I generally think of Nightwing as 2 Vypers which actually are good and have ton of extra abilities. (I actually own this old piece of resin junk lol)
To clarify - Nightwing is BS 3+ it can get a +1 to hit, but loses it's hard to hit rules.
Hmm Im looking at the book, I wanted to re-read the rules for these models. So base for the nightwing is BS is 3+ CTM - Ignore -1 if firing at closest model can pivot towards a visible model instead of 90 degrees as its first pivot move. Then gets +1 to hit to that model but looses its hard to hit ability. So in effect you would be hitting with twin SC and twin BLs on a 2+ at the thing you are parking wight in front of. The chances of surviing return fire is very slim IMO so Im not sure if its worth the tactic.. 136pts - no options.. I like the rules for the phoenix better. It has a nice array of weapons: Phoenix Pulse laser Hvy 2 St 9 ap - 3 flat 3 dmg Twin SC or BL or Star Cannon the phoenix or nightfire missle array -either heavy d6 str 6 ap-3 2dmg - Phoenix or Nightfire hvy 2d6 str 4 -1 1 dmg + special rule. The nightfiremissle array sounds awesome. "-1 to hit for units suffering damage as aresult of this weapon". Coupled with alitoic thats -2 to hit if you can core a wound against the unit thats pumping out most dakka. Sounds very potent. 3 of those flying around with doom... nasty. The chasiss with the laser and missle array is 135. The heavy weapon options on top as normal. WIth star cannons tops out at 161. Cheaper than a CHE but no re-roll 1s and CTM means you ahve to think about your positioning..Think its worht it. Id run it with Shuri Cannons probably at 155. Out of the two the phoenix sounds way better to me. Then again I like to use vibro cannons so what do i know XD
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Post by: Sterling191
An early chapter approved pushed the Phoenix to over 200 points, and if you replace the pulse laser its another 30-40 points for the twin starcannon or brightlance.
Also the Nightfire array is only S4. That aint doing anything.
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Post by: Gangrel767
Nightfire Missile Array: "If a unit suffers any unsaved wounds from this weapon,your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls until the end of the turn."
The -1 only lasts till the end of the turn. This means it will really only work in the following assault phase. The "end of the turn" is before the next shooting phase. So, still useful, but in support of assault units, not as a defensive buff in the next shooting phase. This is why the STR 4 makes sense to me, as I think it's made to hit enemy troops so you can hit them with our assault units and take minimal return.
The Phoenix comes in at 5 points less than a Hemlock when equipped with the Phoenix Pulse Laser. Not bad, but not great. because of how good the codex flyers are already.
In my experience the Phoenix just isn't worth it when a Hemlock is just a few more.
I think there is a strong case for the Nightwing because it is inexpensive, and has some unusual rules. It's not going to reliably do damage with the bright lances, but when the CTM comes into play and on occasion they'll crank it out, but the shuriken cannon fire is reliable in it's won way.
92012
Post by: Argive
Sterling191 wrote:An early chapter approved pushed the Phoenix to over 200 points, and if you replace the pulse laser its another 30-40 points for the twin starcannon or brightlance.
Also the Nightfire array is only S4. That aint doing anything.
Ohh yeah.. My bad, should have used battle scribe to check the points out rather than look in a book... Ohh.. Gw what ya doin to me.. I dont think its not doing nothing.. Its -1 and 2d6 so with 3 of them and doom.. Its should score at least one wound even against tough targets. However I didint notice you change the laser for heavy weaponms rather than the SCs and I mi-interpreted the nightfire rule by the looks of it... so there is that. Gangrel767 wrote:Nightfire Missile Array: "If a unit suffers any unsaved wounds from this weapon,your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls until the end of the turn."
The -1 only lasts till the end of the turn. This means it will really only work in the following assault phase. The "end of the turn" is before the next shooting phase. So, still useful, but in support of assault units, not as a defensive buff in the next shooting phase. This is why the STR 4 makes sense to me, as I think it's made to hit enemy troops so you can hit them with our assault units and take minimal return.
The Phoenix comes in at 5 points less than a Hemlock when equipped with the Phoenix Pulse Laser. Not bad, but not great. because of how good the codex flyers are already.
In my experience the Phoenix just isn't worth it when a Hemlock is just a few more.
I think there is a strong case for the Nightwing because it is inexpensive, and has some unusual rules. It's not going to reliably do damage with the bright lances, but when the CTM comes into play and on occasion they'll crank it out, but the shuriken cannon fire is reliable in it's won way.
Thats a wierd rule... Seems a bit pointless...In that case it wouldint help in Overwatch as its a 6+ regardless of modifiers isint it?(apart from DA/Tau i.e. units with specifi worded rules) In light of these things, CHE/Hems are just so much better.
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Post by: Sterling191
 Gangrel767 wrote:
I think there is a strong case for the Nightwing because it is inexpensive, and has some unusual rules. It's not going to reliably do damage with the bright lances, but when the CTM comes into play and on occasion they'll crank it out, but the shuriken cannon fire is reliable in it's won way.
Thats largely why I like it. Its got a reasonable capacity to hurt things, but at the same time is inexpensive enough that if it does down its not a big loss, especially since it means that firepower isnt going at other things in my army.
Not a whole lot of flash, but it gets the job done.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Yeah it's just more shuriken cannons and bright lances in the army for when you can't spend any more points to get say CH. It is a cute plane.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Thoughts on the falcon for small point games? It feels a little bit like a distraction fex as it drew quite a lot of fire power in the previous 1k points game I played.
It does bring a little bit of anti-tank and some anti-horde with the scatter laser so I was wondering if anyone else has been trying them out at all?
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Post by: Elian
I tried and i love it.
Thing is like most of our units, the Falcon should have some special rules that makes it unique Imho
My friend keep saying that the fire prims and the falcon are the same but i am not keen on believe it..
He's point being that they have the same role and if the falcon has an AML.
In terms of shots it's practically the same to a prims who's shooting at strength 9...
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Post by: Spartacus
Elian wrote:I tried and i love it.
Thing is like most of our units, the Falcon should have some special rules that makes it unique Imho
My friend keep saying that the fire prims and the falcon are the same but i am not keen on believe it..
He's point being that they have the same role and if the falcon has an AML.
In terms of shots it's practically the same to a prims who's shooting at strength 9...
It is quite conspicuous that it's missing a 'special rule', very un-Eldar. Earlier in this thread someone (maybe it was me lol) suggested the Falcon should have Pulsed laser discharge like the Fire Prism, for its Pulse Laser. I thought it was a good idea at the time.
Maybe 4 shots might be too much on top of the CA points decrease.
124269
Post by: Elian
Not really unlike the prisms you don't have any linked fire stratagem.
It would be cool to leave the points like that and adding this special rule
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Post by: Shadenuat
Just allow shooting without penalty after move, like a gunboat/mixed transport with a heavy weapon should be able to. WS = more protection & capacity, Falcon = more dakka.
124269
Post by: Elian
Another question regarding the Falcon.
What unit do you embark in it?
Personally i go with QG and Dark reapers occasionally even Rangers
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
I mounted a farseer and an MSU Dire Avenger squad in my last game. Didn't exactly do much as my opponent rolled hot on two D6 damage shots and stripped 11 wounds off of it turn one with his flyer.
I wouldn't mount Reapers in a falcon, they have range of most of the board anyway and all you have to do is stick them in ruins and fire and fade them for them to be effective.
Big negative is the -1 with heavy weapons, it's the sinker I think.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
CTMs plus the 16" move allow for some mitigation of that problem. Position correctly, pop screening units and you can usually get the pulse laser on-target.
It's not ideal by any means, but the move speed can pay dividends. Especially if you've got camping Prisms, Spinners or Reapers as a static fire base.
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Post by: Elian
Yeah i put the DE in the Falcon just for the first turn i don't have any intention of moving them! the -1 is really really bad
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Fair point with CTMs, I hadn't though of that one. I reckon I'll bring it in my next game and see how I get on with it as the game I will be playing is 2000 points rather than 1000.
The previous large points game was 1850pts versus Dark Eldar and I struggled a lot with target saturation. I ran a list of 3 Fire Prisms, 3 Wave Serpents, 20 Guardians and 2x 5 Dire Avengers, farseer, spiritseer, jetbike autarch, 3 war walkers and a dark reaper squad. I ran a spearhead and a battalion, both as Alaitoc but I probably should have run the battalion as Biel Tan instead. I realise I don't have a lot of info to give but what are the thoughts on dealing with raider and venom spam?
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Tyranid Horde wrote:Fair point with CTMs, I hadn't though of that one. I reckon I'll bring it in my next game and see how I get on with it as the game I will be playing is 2000 points rather than 1000.
The previous large points game was 1850pts versus Dark Eldar and I struggled a lot with target saturation. I ran a list of 3 Fire Prisms, 3 Wave Serpents, 20 Guardians and 2x 5 Dire Avengers, farseer, spiritseer, jetbike autarch, 3 war walkers and a dark reaper squad. I ran a spearhead and a battalion, both as Alaitoc but I probably should have run the battalion as Biel Tan instead. I realise I don't have a lot of info to give but what are the thoughts on dealing with raider and venom spam?
My preferred configuration for the Falcon is CTM + Starcannon. Clocks in at 130 points, and has four relatively nasty multidamage shots at a respectable range. They're actually pretty ideal for popping Raiders as the S6 on the Starcannon mauls T5. Keep a wing/bike-tarch in range and you'll have decent accuracy on the bounce.
Anything with high volume of fire are great for shredding Venoms. Guide / Autarch bubble / Biel Tan on a Spinner would work pretty well methinks, as you only need three shots to go through for a kill.
124269
Post by: Elian
>lay down
>pretend to be dead
Jokes aside i found that our planes combining with our psykich power can do a lot against our dark kin.
Plus shining spear!
My opponent had some kabalites in a venom and i encircled that cardboard boaty think killing all what was inside.
Shining spear are still awesome imho
109576
Post by: Karhedron
Not a huge fan of the Falcon in this edition. I prefer Fire Prisms for firepower or Serpents for durability. They seem to be a compromise unit that under performs compared to both.
92012
Post by: Argive
Interesting takes on the falcons. I haven't got any experience with them myself.
I'm working towards spinners/prisms. More exited for spinners going into my army than anything else tbh. Maybe warp spiders...
124269
Post by: Elian
Alaitoc Warp Spiders are beasts you can easily go -4 to hit
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Karhedron wrote:
Not a huge fan of the Falcon in this edition. I prefer Fire Prisms for firepower or Serpents for durability. They seem to be a compromise unit that under performs compared to both.
Yeah, it definitely didn't make its points back in the game I played, it killed half a dozen ork boyz and fell out of the sky. Lucky rolls, but the point stands, it didn't do enough.
In relation to Warp Spiders, as much as I love them, I don't think they're good enough, even with -4 to hit. They don't have a big enough impact.
I'm considering investing in some Crimson Hunters/Hemlocks at long last, they aren't really my style but hey ho.
112649
Post by: grouchoben
Fire prisms are amazing. Night Spinners get hard countered against so many targets in my experience, and often end up being shot against chaff, where they're a waste. I know a lot of people rate them however, and they're great against 4++ units for example. I guess it's just a meta thing.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
grouchoben wrote:Fire prisms are amazing. Night Spinners get hard countered against so many targets in my experience, and often end up being shot against chaff, where they're a waste. I know a lot of people rate them however, and they're great against 4++ units for example. I guess it's just a meta thing.
They're good for ITC/ ETC where you don't have LOS on targets and they're hideable to an extent.
I love my Fire Prisms, they always put in the work and they always make their points back.
59054
Post by: Nevelon
The problem with the falcon is not that it is bad, but it’s outshined by other units in the book. Which frankly, has been it’s cross to bear for most of it’s history.
I reguarly field two. They are the models that started me on Eldar back at the end of 2nd when they first came out. Normally with brightlances on the side, to keep them focused on AV work.
Cargo is sometimes empty, but one usually houses a squad of DA, and the other FDs. Sometimes a HQ like Jain Zar or a seer will start in one to lower drops.
I play pretty casual with a limited collection, but enjoy them. They might not be game-breaking, but they are solid workhorses. Your points could probably be spent better elsewhere, but the noble Falcon would love to have them.
124269
Post by: Elian
Hey guys i've wrote a list in dire need of your opinion
Here
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
The list is fine, with the exception of the Falcons
124269
Post by: Elian
Oh no that was my selling point i just finished mounting an painting them D:
53848
Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
Looks a bit light on anti infantry. You have loads of anti tank. You could go with Star Cannons on the Hunters and Falcons which would save some points. You'd then have tanks and heavy infantry covered pretty well, but still might have problems with hordes.
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Post by: Elian
Yeah but each of the Dark Reaper's exarch has the tempest (2D6) and i have the AML 1D6.
I thought it was more than enough to keep hordes at bay
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
The tempest launcher might be worth it and I'm even considering it for the Exarch in my Reaper squad as that's what he's modeled with.
Changing the tack slightly, but I have a game on Thursday (2000 points, ITC) against Tau and I was going to go for a Biel-Tan main battalion. More to the point, I was going to try out a max squad of Banshees to put in the hurt in close combat against some fish people. The denial of overwatch would be pretty major and the access to the Biel-Tan stratagem to get 3" extra on the charge with combat re-rolls seems pretty tasty if I can get them that far. Terrain would be pretty dense but I was considering sticking them in a serpent and pushing them up the board or running up as they have a pretty massive movement phase.
124269
Post by: Elian
I agree the tempest is a good weapon..
Regarding the Banshee i don't use them regularly mainly because they need a lot of psychic support during the fight phase.
Hitting isn't an issue wounding is even facing a unit with toughness 3 is a problem, wounding on 4's is not ideal at all
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Post by: sturguard
Hey guys, does anyone take 2x20 guardian squads? I mean with a doom, and dropping out of a webway, they can take almost anything out in the game in theory.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Elian wrote:
Regarding the Banshee i don't use them regularly mainly because they need a lot of psychic support during the fight phase.
Hitting isn't an issue wounding is even facing a unit with toughness 3 is a problem, wounding on 4's is not ideal at all
Banshees are disruptor units, not killy units. Denial of overwatch is massive against gunline armies.
6895
Post by: Shadenuat
Add 2x5 girls in separate Serpents, Tau really like this. You can also run Jain Zar, she can even deploy without WS due to her Character rule. And an Autarch on bike with no-overwatch, mask or warlord trait.
Hey guys, does anyone take 2x20 guardian squads? I mean with a doom, and dropping out of a webway, they can take almost anything out in the game in theory.
Mostly anything not T8.
Also you want Jinx, then they are really a bane of units relying on good saves/invuls.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Shadenuat wrote:Add 2x5 girls in separate Serpents, Tau really like this. You can also run Jain Zar, she can even deploy without WS due to her Character rule. And an Autarch on bike with no-overwatch, mask or warlord trait.
Break the max squad into 2x 5 woman squads then? I'll be running more than two serpents anyway so it'll make sense to stick them in there. I have a Jetbike Autarch with mask to get in on the action too.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Well they're not very numerous, survivable or have large bases to take hostages, so yeah I run them like that.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
sturguard wrote:Hey guys, does anyone take 2x20 guardian squads? I mean with a doom, and dropping out of a webway, they can take almost anything out in the game in theory.
I took a blob of 20 and 10 DA and webway struck an Ork horde army and the main issue arises from the poor range of the shuriken catapult and how well your opponent can do his area of denial. The results were good, but not good enough to take them every game.
112649
Post by: grouchoben
Tyranid Horde wrote: grouchoben wrote:Fire prisms are amazing. Night Spinners get hard countered against so many targets in my experience, and often end up being shot against chaff, where they're a waste. I know a lot of people rate them however, and they're great against 4++ units for example. I guess it's just a meta thing.
They're good for ITC/ ETC where you don't have LOS on targets and they're hideable to an extent.
I love my Fire Prisms, they always put in the work and they always make their points back.
If they're for fragging out of LoS on backfield objective holders (I agree, much needed role in ITC), then I honestly prefer heavy weapon platforms - you drop a point of damage and strength, but get 50% more shots, harder to shoot of the board, and easier to hide.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
grouchoben wrote:
If they're for fragging out of LoS on backfield objective holders (I agree, much needed role in ITC), then I honestly prefer heavy weapon platforms - you drop a point of damage and strength, but get 50% more shots, harder to shoot of the board, and easier to hide.
Support Weapons are solid as hell. Spinners can do dual duty against vehicles and monsters, but excel in hunting heavy infantry.
It all comes down to what you need them for.
92012
Post by: Argive
Sterling191 wrote: grouchoben wrote:
If they're for fragging out of LoS on backfield objective holders (I agree, much needed role in ITC), then I honestly prefer heavy weapon platforms - you drop a point of damage and strength, but get 50% more shots, harder to shoot of the board, and easier to hide.
Support Weapons are solid as hell. Spinners can do dual duty against vehicles and monsters, but excel in hunting heavy infantry.
It all comes down to what you need them for.
I rate vibro cannons.. 
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Post by: Elian
"Every one loves the vibro cannon" DDDD
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
... plays the Beach Boys...
All variants of support weapons are good stuff, the D merely need some good play, and that seems hampering oneself, when CH(E) is available. The other two take up a lot of board, do good trickle damage for the points and are stirdier than their cost justifies. If i could make myself paint them, i'd order another three...
92012
Post by: Argive
Cpt. Icanus wrote:... plays the Beach Boys...
All variants of support weapons are good stuff, the D merely need some good play, and that seems hampering oneself, when CH(E) is available. The other two take up a lot of board, do good trickle damage for the points and are stirdier than their cost justifies. If i could make myself paint them, i'd order another three...
The D is just too expensive for its range... Migh as well get a wraithseer
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Sterling191 wrote: Elian wrote:4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable
but it requires positioning (which isnt always an option).
Another thing to note is due to the retractable wings, nightwings have even more absurd maneuverability than your regular Wings of Khaine flyer.
Extended wings mode provides +1 BS so with the built-in CTM you're hitting those bright lances on 2s. That is VERY respectable considering for 70 pts more than a hemlock you can have 2 nightwings. They are really cheap.
As a bonus they also come with a 5++ in retracted mode.
123308
Post by: Orbei
 slave.entity wrote:Sterling191 wrote: Elian wrote:4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable
but it requires positioning (which isnt always an option).
Another thing to note is due to the retractable wings, nightwings have even more absurd maneuverability than your regular Wings of Khaine flyer.
Extended wings mode provides +1 BS so with the built-in CTM you're hitting those bright lances on 2s. That is VERY respectable considering for 70 pts more than a hemlock you can have 2 nightwings. They are really cheap.
As a bonus they also come with a 5++ in retracted mode.
Out of curiosity, my reading of the Nightwing 5++ save is that it is conditional upon both being in retracted wings and advancing. So it can never be used if your opponent has first turn - you cannot declare your wing profile until your movement phase - and then you must advance to gain it. However, the wording is somewhat ambiguous. What is the community take on this?
124269
Post by: Elian
slave.entity wrote:Sterling191 wrote: Elian wrote:4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable
but it requires positioning (which isnt always an option).
Another thing to note is due to the retractable wings, nightwings have even more absurd maneuverability than your regular Wings of Khaine flyer.
Extended wings mode provides +1 BS so with the built-in CTM you're hitting those bright lances on 2s. That is VERY respectable considering for 70 pts more than a hemlock you can have 2 nightwings. They are really cheap.
As a bonus they also come with a 5++ in retracted mode.
You're hitting on 3's if you are not targeting the nearest because if you have to advance other than that i still think it is better to have a CHE
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Orbei wrote: slave.entity wrote:Sterling191 wrote: Elian wrote:4+? It is because you're not using the exarch!
Hitting on 3+ rerolling one's is just more reliable
but it requires positioning (which isnt always an option).
Another thing to note is due to the retractable wings, nightwings have even more absurd maneuverability than your regular Wings of Khaine flyer.
Extended wings mode provides +1 BS so with the built-in CTM you're hitting those bright lances on 2s. That is VERY respectable considering for 70 pts more than a hemlock you can have 2 nightwings. They are really cheap.
As a bonus they also come with a 5++ in retracted mode.
Out of curiosity, my reading of the Nightwing 5++ save is that it is conditional upon both being in retracted wings and advancing. So it can never be used if your opponent has first turn - you cannot declare your wing profile until your movement phase - and then you must advance to gain it. However, the wording is somewhat ambiguous. What is the community take on this?
It says "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare...". This applies to any movement phase, including the opponent's.
The 5++ in retracted mode could also be read as unconditional. They separated the two effects with a long dash so I actually first read it as a permanent 5++ in extended mode, regardless of having advanced or not. I had to re-read it after you mentioned it but it definitely look ambiguous and can be played either way unless I'm missing an FAQ about this:
It's not a huge deal either way though. Even without the 5++ it would still basically have the durability of a hemlock on turn 1. T6, 12W 3+, -2 to hit if Alaitoc. No built in spirit stones but hey it's less than 2/3 the cost. D6 damage S8 guns with the option to hit on 2s is always decent, and the 6 shuricannon shots means they aren't completely useless at removing screen once the big threats are down.
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Post by: Orbei
The problem with interpreting 'the movement phase' as any movement phase is that it would allow you to switch between the two on your opponent's turn. So, you could gain the +1 to hit from extended wings in your movement phase and then switch to retracted in your opponent's, regaining hard to hit. This may be allowable in the strict RAW sense but it's pretty cheesy. When I have used the Nightwing I played it as only being able to switch in my movement phase, thus starting the game in neither, and not gaining the 5++ until after advancing. The wording is very ambiguous so I would rather play it as conservatively as possible.
Agree that it's a nice unit though, and a bargain for the points.
92012
Post by: Argive
Yeah although RAW, because technically it doesn't say "YOUR movement phase" you could switch between phases technically I guess.
I don't think its RAI at all, and in the spirit of playing fair I personally wouldn't do it, or allow it to be played that way if I was in a position of a TO. YMMV..
Wouldn't like it, if an opponent pulled it on me in a game.
So I wouldn't do it myself.
Its not like its a bad unit in its own right....
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Orbei wrote:The problem with interpreting 'the movement phase' as any movement phase is that it would allow you to switch between the two on your opponent's turn. So, you could gain the +1 to hit from extended wings in your movement phase and then switch to retracted in your opponent's, regaining hard to hit. This may be allowable in the strict RAW sense but it's pretty cheesy.
That's pretty hilarious and cheesy and broken. Weird how they don't specify the movement phase, but do specify which player gets to decide what mode it's in. That whole rule just seems really poorly written.
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Post by: Shadenuat
The sentence is pretty straightforward with following inclination that model is then moved by a controlling player, so reading it backwards is pretty much TFG 'ing.
12804
Post by: Cpt. Icanus
While "the movement phase" concerns each one, including the opponent's, the rule next states "before this model is moved". As you don't get to move your model in the opponent's phase, you don't get to swap modes. If you want to read rules to a t, you gotta go all the way, not stop where it suits you best.
122261
Post by: slave.entity
Ok I buy that. But I still contend that the wording sucks and using 'before this model has moved' to specify controlling player's movement phase is really confusing and ambiguous. Who knows, maybe there is some unit that can move in the opponent's movement phase? Soulburst and Yncarne allowed for out of sequence things to happen after all. Maybe there's more? Point being, it shouldn't be up to the player to assume these things.
And how about the 5++ save in retracted mode?
123308
Post by: Orbei
I posed the question in YMDC because I was curious about other people's reading of it. The consensus seems to be that the 5++ is contingent upon advancing, which was my initial interpretation. The wording is so ambiguous that a case could be made either way, but the plane is still really good without the auto 5++ in retracted so I think playing it the conservative way is more sporting.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
I gave the Banshees a go with two squads of five with the Biel-Tan craftworld and managed a turn one charge with my banshees on pretty much the entirety of my opponent's Tau gunline. My opponent's positioning and the size of the units I had made it nigh on impossible to wrap any of his fire warriors or drones so he was able to withdraw and used Kauyon to wipe my banshees. He did dedicate a lot of firepower to them but his broadsides were able to eat a wave serpent a turn and I couldn't really get near them after the initial charge.
I charged my banshee mask autarch in at the same time and thinking about it now I should have waited and charged him in next turn to tie up more units the next turn but oh well, you live and learn. Managed a draw in the end so a little bit unlucky not to win.
Next game is against Custodes with three Telemons. Any tips/list picks for this game?
124269
Post by: Elian
Go with Jinx and a lot of smites! Those are your best friends against the golden boiz
121068
Post by: Sterling191
If he's playing pure bananna boys, hes not gonna have much in the way of screens. If you can get banshees (or any other no-overwatch unit) onto the Telemons you've got a huge advantage. Unlike the Caladius the Telemon can't fall back and shoot, and if they're in a shootying configuration they're not all that dangerous in melee.
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Post by: grouchoben
A Telemon will still kill 2 banshees a turn in CC without a fist - 4 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s is not nice for your Banshees. There's actually very little difference in the load outs against banshees.
That's before you factor in their shield captain babysitter. You should be able to shut one down for a turn but not longer, unless you're committing a full squad.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Considering my opponent is likely to be taking three Telemons, throwing banshees at them won't do the job. Would it be worth taking them anyway purely to sand bag them for a turn? I have no access to flyers right now so the only solid anti-tank I have are three fire prisms.
Do I simply avoid them and play the objective? I don't think I'll be able to deal with all three during the game through smites, destructor and executioner alone.
121068
Post by: Sterling191
Tyranid Horde wrote:Considering my opponent is likely to be taking three Telemons, throwing banshees at them won't do the job. Would it be worth taking them anyway purely to sand bag them for a turn? I have no access to flyers right now so the only solid anti-tank I have are three fire prisms.
Do I simply avoid them and play the objective? I don't think I'll be able to deal with all three during the game through smites, destructor and executioner alone.
Sacrificing a few Banshees to shut down 800 points of Telemon shooting for a turn or two is most definitely worth it. Those lasses were getting squished, it was never in doubt. If you can keep those dreads from liquefying your army its a net win to you.
92012
Post by: Argive
I dont think a squad of 5 will do much. A squad of 10 with fearless and heavy hitting support from say an avatar sounds fun on paper. Should be enough to buy the time needed to get points and free up the fire power to go to work on the rest of his army. Caveat - i have not played that combination myself.
71534
Post by: Bharring
What they do best is "buy time".
You aren't killing anything with them. Even GEQ don't fear them, because the AP means nearly nothing and the A2 means the volume is far too low. Anything tougher than that laughs off the S3. It's kinda funny seeing this T3 4+ unit bounce off Marines.
They are great at buying time, with their extra movement and ignore-overwatch. The problem is buying the right time with them. T1, you're only getting into what they put out there for you to charge, so even if you get a T1 charge it ain't great. T2+, you're a bit late to tie the important stuff up - it's already done it's damage.
To make matters worse, most lists have at least one of:
-No good target for them (any CC list)
-A great unit to counter-assault them (any Combined Arms list)
-Can easily remove T3 4+ models at nigh-MEQ prices (Any shooty list)
Banshees can do great things in the right circumstances, but they'll rarely get to.
My last game with them, one squad of Banshees locked down a pair of Leman Russes for a turn. They lost combat by a couple when 3 Primaris Pskers (!) joined in. Then the Russes fell back, and a Conscript squad sans support removed the survivors. And this is one of the better outcomes they can get - sacrificing a Banshee squad to lock down two Russes and eat a Conscript squad's dakka for a turn isn't a terrible trade.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
I would talk to your opponent first myself and ask them. My flgs had this come up awhile ago and agreed that the original movement type for flyers is how they are when they enter the battlefield t1 and then its the owners choice during their movement if they want to use the alternative option. The argument was about a flyer getting its -1 supersonic bonus if the person going 2nd hasnt had a chance to move the model yet, the person going 1st was arguing that since it hasnt moved yet it has to either be in hover mode or crash..... you can imagine how that game went lol.
In the case of the nightwing it starts in normal flight and retracts as an option doesnt it? In that case yeah, no 5++ t1 until you advance it.
49486
Post by: Goobi2
Azuza001 wrote:I would talk to your opponent first myself and ask them. My flgs had this come up awhile ago and agreed that the original movement type for flyers is how they are when they enter the battlefield t1 and then its the owners choice during their movement if they want to use the alternative option. The argument was about a flyer getting its -1 supersonic bonus if the person going 2nd hasnt had a chance to move the model yet, the person going 1st was arguing that since it hasnt moved yet it has to either be in hover mode or crash..... you can imagine how that game went lol.
In the case of the nightwing it starts in normal flight and retracts as an option doesnt it? In that case yeah, no 5++ t1 until you advance it.
Neither flight mode is inherent for the Nightwing, it simply says to pick one before moving it. However, since the extended wings profile would remove other listed abilities, I would argue that is the least natural starting point.
20609
Post by: Tyranid Horde
Played another game against Orks last night and managed to find some use with the Banshees I brought. Tied up a traktor cannon for the majority of the game so didn't deal any wounds to it because it's T5 and Banshees can kill anything. Happy enough, they did their job.
I keep playing with triple Fire Prisms in an Alaitoc spearhead led by a jetbike autarch and I'm finding the autarch a little bit hard to use as I don't want to give away slay the warlord when I charge him into combat.
Also have been using War Walkers and I honestly believe they're an auto-take for me now. Shuriken cannons put in the work on such a cheap and pretty sturdy body. Tempted to try EMLs on them for horde management and some anti-tank but that gets expensive.
71534
Post by: Bharring
I play an Aspect Host, with basically 1 of each aspect + a couple more Dire Avenger units + a Phoenix Lord. And each Exarch has a different configuration.
Banshees can be really helpful there in skirmishing against shooty foes, or leading the charge against combined arms/cc armies. The Banshees charge in first, then a half-dozen other units. Each individual unit doesn't do much, but ~20 GEQ piling into a single unit does work - especially since those GEQ already did their shooting that phase, and strike first because they charged. With the Exarchs and PL, they typically beat whatever they're facing, although it's best when you leave a couple models alive. The trick is ensuring you have short charges with enough units, and ensuring you've whittled down the unit enough; charging your entire force into even a 30-man Conscript unit can be baaad.
Aspect Hosts aren't very effective. But if you are running one, Banshees are a great toolkit but a terrible CC unit.
45962
Post by: Gangrel767
Tyranid Horde wrote:Played another game against Orks last night and managed to find some use with the Banshees I brought. Tied up a traktor cannon for the majority of the game so didn't deal any wounds to it because it's T5 and Banshees can kill anything. Happy enough, they did their job.
I keep playing with triple Fire Prisms in an Alaitoc spearhead led by a jetbike autarch and I'm finding the autarch a little bit hard to use as I don't want to give away slay the warlord when I charge him into combat.
Also have been using War Walkers and I honestly believe they're an auto-take for me now. Shuriken cannons put in the work on such a cheap and pretty sturdy body. Tempted to try EMLs on them for horde management and some anti-tank but that gets expensive.
This is exactly what I have been thinking. I have 3 more heading to me soon and I am going to try 2 units of 3 with EML.
Can't be too bad.. lol
92012
Post by: Argive
Ive run an EML heavy force before. I do like the twin EML. Its still S8 d6 dmg -2ap so can take care of business. Not quite BL AT level but good enough... It offers nice duality but the horde control is very swingy though, such is the nature of D6 weapons. Backed up with tempest launchers cant go wrong. Played vs tau and worked very well for clearing drones & fire warriors.
114414
Post by: Azuza001
I run beil tan and one of the most effective castle setups i have ran was running a farseer and 2 squads of 3 warwalkers with eml. Yes they are expensive but if you run 2 squads of 3 warwalkers with 2x eml, a squad of 3 support weapons with shadow weavers, and a warlord farseer with Natural Leader and guide you have 12 eml all rerolling to hits and anti infanty guns in a spearhead detachment for 701 pts.
Compair this to a typical triple fire prism setup of 3 prisms with crystal targeting matrix, spirit stones, shurican cannon upgrade, and a farseer skyrunner (how i run it when i am using them) which costs 677 pts and they really are not that far off from each other. Fire prisms need cp to run, have mobility if things go bad, where warwalkers have 5+ invunerable and extra wounds that need to be peeled through to slow down and more flexability in firing options.
Its why i enjoy eldar so much atm, our faction really has many different ways to effectively run them. Its all about playstyle and preferences.
92012
Post by: Argive
Azuza001 wrote:I run beil tan and one of the most effective castle setups i have ran was running a farseer and 2 squads of 3 warwalkers with eml. Yes they are expensive but if you run 2 squads of 3 warwalkers with 2x eml, a squad of 3 support weapons with shadow weavers, and a warlord farseer with Natural Leader and guide you have 12 eml all rerolling to hits and anti infanty guns in a spearhead detachment for 701 pts. Compair this to a typical triple fire prism setup of 3 prisms with crystal targeting matrix, spirit stones, shurican cannon upgrade, and a farseer skyrunner (how i run it when i am using them) which costs 677 pts and they really are not that far off from each other. Fire prisms need cp to run, have mobility if things go bad, where warwalkers have 5+ invunerable and extra wounds that need to be peeled through to slow down and more flexability in firing options. Its why i enjoy eldar so much atm, our faction really has many different ways to effectively run them. Its all about playstyle and preferences.
Interesting approach. I personally would only run prisms bare bones. However the triple walkers AML squadrons I can see working. The benefit of having a seer babysitting them is that you can always use forewarned and maybe drop runes of witnessing if you have a bigger castle to make it worth and spare CP. What do you run as you battalion/battalions for CP in this list? I was thinking about a similar thing but with night spinners and throwing in a Bonesinger for the heals. Regenerating Walkers sounds like a lot of fun.. Id probably have a shooty autarch and seer up front to smite and guide back to the nest of walkers. Wish you could take WL in a squadron. I do agree Eldar do offer a lot flavours. As with any army if you min max your choices get narrowed but I still think we have ways of making different builds work effectively. I played a game on Friday Eldar V Eldar. That's was fun! We both run Eldrad in our armies. I had no answer for his wraithguard bomb or his night spinner once my reapers were annihilated going second got tabled but got the draw as I was massively ahead on points due to having a more mobile force thanks to a unit of Warp spiders. Two very different armies. Absolutely love the warp spiders. They don't quite have the punch but the mobility is out of this world. I am really looking forward to getting a squad of 10 up and running as these were on loan.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
I'm curious as to why you're running Biel-Tan when you can reliably cast guide and if you picked Alaitoc nothing would be hitting those units of WWs.
I also don't feel the two "bombs" are really comparable as Fire Prisms have the ability to link fire (with re-rolls included), fire twice each if they don't move and have 60" range. You don't even need a Farseer for them to be super effective and they're best run bare bones so they're a good bit cheaper than you're letting on. Taking them as Alaitoc with a Jetbike Autarch (MotIH, Reaper Launcher) rounds out that spearhead to 594pts, which is a massive difference considering you can let the Autarch do whatever he wants.
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Post by: Daba
Haven't played for a long time, so I don't really know what's hot or not at the moment.
What is the best way to run bikes these days? Plain shuriken cannon for everyone?
I painted my Eldar in Biel Tan, but that comes with the regrets of it being weird if I pick another craftworld trait. At least a lot of my models are Aspects in 'aspect' colours. I hear Alaitoc are flavour of the day for their trait?
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Post by: bullyboy
 Daba wrote:Haven't played for a long time, so I don't really know what's hot or not at the moment.
What is the best way to run bikes these days? Plain shuriken cannon for everyone?
I painted my Eldar in Biel Tan, but that comes with the regrets of it being weird if I pick another craftworld trait. At least a lot of my models are Aspects in 'aspect' colours. I hear Alaitoc are flavour of the day for their trait?
If your list has lots of shurikens, Biel Tan isn't that bad.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
Biel-Tan in my opinion is like the second best Craftworld trait after Alaitoc and is king in small points games where barebones and min-max is a good idea.
I enjoy the trait a lot and take a Battalion as Biel-Tan and a Spearhead as Alaitoc in my 2k list and it's been pretty fun.
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Post by: Daba
I could run a Dire Avenger heavy list.
I take it shooty boys are good this edition in general for Eldar? How are our bikes and vehicles?
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Post by: Azuza001
Biel tan bikes with shuriken cannons are fast and self sufficient, and you can drop a cheap 20 man guardian blob on someones front line and unload onto them with little fear of it doing some work thanks to the trait. Saim han is still scatter laser bikes = terrific value and firepower. Alitoc is the go to option because flat-1 to hit is soo good.
Our vehicles range from incredible to ok. Wave serpents, our flyers, these are incredibly good units if not a tad expensive. Fireprisms in groups are really good too.
Falcons are ok, but suffer a bit this edition because of cost and not being as survivable or putting out as much firepower as a wave serpent can.
As for my comparison above with fire prisms vs warwalkers, i was just explaining how i run them not how you have to. You could also drop 2 of the artillery pieces from my option to save 70 pts, so there is always a way to make them better.
I run biel tan and not alitoc because i use so many shuriken weapons on foot that it just makes sense. 6x5 dire avenger squads (exarch w/ double shuriken), banshees, bikes w/ shuriken cannons, vypers with shuriken cannons, these things all become more effective on their own as biel tan i feel.
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Post by: Daba
How are Swooping Hawks? Too fragile still?
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Post by: Azuza001
I use 5 man teams for chaff clearing in case i run up against guard / cultists / deamons. They are cheap enough that if 5 die no big deal but put out enough dakka that they can really help clear the way for banshees / scorpions.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
They die to a stiff breeze but the weight of shots is great for screen clearing T3 blobs of guard or gretchin or getting at backfield objective holders. The grenade pack is okay but you can only do it once per phase.
I took a barebones squad in recent games and I was very pleased with them, especially in games where you want to hold objectives for points because their speed can get them places.
65 points to clear chaff and cap objectives? Yes please.
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Post by: Bharring
I have trouble clearing light infantry in my Aspect Host lists - which they do reasonably well at. So I enjoy them, and they usually do enough. But not amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Sun Rifle = wonderful. It's Index only, and might do nothing, but when facing a GEQ blob, it's quite impactful.
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Post by: karandrasss
Is Ynnari dead?
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Yes. And they have their own thread to mourn them. /s
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
So much for the rebirth of the Eldar race eh? Purists won out in the end
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Post by: Daba
Bharring wrote:I have trouble clearing light infantry in my Aspect Host lists - which they do reasonably well at. So I enjoy them, and they usually do enough. But not amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Sun Rifle = wonderful. It's Index only, and might do nothing, but when facing a GEQ blob, it's quite impactful.
Are you still allowed to use Index stuff? Specifically bits of wargear from Index?
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Post by: Elian
Not in ETC you won't
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
It's largely down to the TO to decide that, there's no definite yes or no answer to that one.
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Post by: Elian
Well in Italy/Germany they mostly won't D: don't know about you guys up there
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Post by: Spartacus
GW has said yes you can, see below. Tournaments sometimes have houserules if that's how you like to play.
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Post by: Elian
Yeah as i stated before i was talking about ETC not the official tournaments <3
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Post by: Daba
Does this mean I still get to use my WSJP Autarch with Fusion Gun?
I converted that to have a power sword back in the day. Is that in the data sheet?
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Post by: Bharring
Depends on who you're playing with.
Generally, if someone walks in with a WSJP Autarch with a Fusion Gun, or a Wings Autarch with a Mandiblaster, or most of the other index options, awesome. But if someone walks in with a bad unfinished kitbash of an Autarch on a bike with a reaper Launcher with Peerless Hunter, not awesome. I probably wouldn't deny them a game, but I wouldn't be excited about it - as that's a bad omen.
Every meta is different. In mine, rule of cool wins. If you chose equipment because it's cool, go for it. But there's something a bit extra cheesy about using Index options mixed with new-in-Codex rules (Reaper Launcher + Peerless Hunter) for loopholling into something nasty. On the other hand, Sun Rifle was the weapon I thought would stand out on a Swooping Hawk - as their other gun is just "Lasblaster, but higher S". I haven't heard any complaints about that.
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Post by: NexAddo
Quick question regarding the Scorpion Super Heavy.
Twin-Scorpion Pulsar - Heavy
BS 2+
4++ if it moves over 17"
Is there any way to be able to get that 4++ and fire the main gun
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Post by: JNAProductions
NexAddo wrote:Quick question regarding the Scorpion Super Heavy.
Twin-Scorpion Pulsar - Heavy
BS 2+
4++ if it moves over 17"
Is there any way to be able to get that 4++ and fire the main gun
Yes. Move more than 17" and eat the -1 hit penalty.
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Post by: NexAddo
Post 2019/07/10 22:00:39 Subject: Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!
NexAddo wrote:
Quick question regarding the Scorpion Super Heavy.
Twin-Scorpion Pulsar - Heavy
BS 2+
4++ if it moves over 17"
Is there any way to be able to get that 4++ and fire the main gun
Yes. Move more than 17" and eat the -1 hit penalty.
It's movement is 14" so you would have to advance. Thus not being able to shoot a heavy weapon
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Post by: JNAProductions
NexAddo wrote:
Post 2019/07/10 22:00:39 Subject: Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!
NexAddo wrote:
Quick question regarding the Scorpion Super Heavy.
Twin-Scorpion Pulsar - Heavy
BS 2+
4++ if it moves over 17"
Is there any way to be able to get that 4++ and fire the main gun
Yes. Move more than 17" and eat the -1 hit penalty.
It's movement is 14" so you would have to advance. Thus not being able to shoot a heavy weapon
See, that's information you have to include.
Barring a special rule you forgot to mention, then no.
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Post by: Spartacus
Elian wrote:Yeah as i stated before i was talking about ETC not the official tournaments <3
The posters question was answered with 2 posts relating to tournament houserules, even though he never mentioned tournaments at all in his post. I thought it might be prudent to give him an answer which is aligned with the actual rules.
92012
Post by: Argive
I love my winged-tarch with reaper launcher conversion. As far as I'm concerned that's still rules as per GW.
I do often run him with mark of hunter as backline buffer with ranger support. I don't think its gamey or cheesy. Sometimes he's just puritanical leader anchor. He does often hit on 3's as he tend to move a little bit and shuffle around to give re-rolls and get LOS.
I wont be putting the launcher on my Bike-Tarch though. Mainly because I think he will be advancing most of the time so lance and fusion gun for him.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
Been playing in the small points league at my local GW over the past two weeks. 1000pts, one detachment, rule of two, CA2018 eternal war missions and so far it's gone well, two wins from two games which guarantees me top of my group.
While the list is fine so far, feedback is appreciated on the list, what would have been worth taking, what replaces what etc.
Biel-Tan Battalion:
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear, Doom, Executioner
Spiritseer: Warlord (Biel-Tan Natural Leader), Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, Protect/Jinx
2x 5 DA inc. Exarch w/ dual catapults
6 DA inc. Exarch w/ dual catapults
5 Rangers
3 Dark Reapers inc Exarch w/ tempest launcher
3x Wave Serpents, all with shuriken cannons and underslung cannons (one has CTM as I had spare points).
Total: 1000 points
Went for the Serpents because it takes a lot of dedicated firepower to down one at this points level and the barebones tanks can hit on 3s and reroll 1s.
High toughness is an issue, as I found against a Banehammer last night but I mostly played the objective against that and won that way.
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Post by: Sterling191
Honestly its a tasty little Biel-tan squad. You're getting a lot of points value out of the shuriken reroll. Maybe swap the 6-man avenger team and the CTM for a pair of Shadow Weavers?
Between that and the Tempest you'll have a sizeable amount of indirect shuriken fire.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
Definitely considering investing in some support platforms. I have one at the minute but need two more because I can see them being really good fillers as they're so cheap.
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Post by: Argive
Wait.. Are monofilament spinners etc considered shuriken for biel-tan ?
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Post by: Azuza001
No they dont.
Played a game today and the most amazing thing happened on accident. Thanks to a combination of movement and deployment my farseer / warlock were only in range of an enemy repulsar at full health. So i did what i could, i cast doom and jinx on it. Now i had no plans on actually doing any damage to it, the only units in range after advancing forwards to shoot at it were 2 squads of 5 man dire avengers (exarchs with double catapults) and Jain Zar (rolled a 6 for her advance roll so she ran straight for the front left flank). My opponent had just the repulasar and a 5 man tactical with laz cannon on that side.
24 catapult shots, rerolling 1's for Biel Tan, then wounding only on 6's with 6's being -3 for shuriken and rerolling everything but 6's...... with jinx giving -1 to armor saves...... those guys did 7 wounds to the Repulsar! Then Jain Zar tossed her weapon and did another wound. Finally i popped court of the young king on her and charged in, killing the repulsar in one turn!
Doing the math now, shuriken seems apsolutly devastating mixed with doom/jinx on vehicles without invulnerables and T8.
92012
Post by: Argive
Azuza001 wrote:No they dont.
Played a game today and the most amazing thing happened on accident. Thanks to a combination of movement and deployment my farseer / warlock were only in range of an enemy repulsar at full health. So i did what i could, i cast doom and jinx on it. Now i had no plans on actually doing any damage to it, the only units in range after advancing forwards to shoot at it were 2 squads of 5 man dire avengers (exarchs with double catapults) and Jain Zar (rolled a 6 for her advance roll so she ran straight for the front left flank). My opponent had just the repulasar and a 5 man tactical with laz cannon on that side.
24 catapult shots, rerolling 1's for Biel Tan, then wounding only on 6's with 6's being -3 for shuriken and rerolling everything but 6's...... with jinx giving -1 to armor saves...... those guys did 7 wounds to the Repulsar! Then Jain Zar tossed her weapon and did another wound. Finally i popped court of the young king on her and charged in, killing the repulsar in one turn!
Doing the math now, shuriken seems apsolutly devastating mixed with doom/jinx on vehicles without invulnerables and T8.
I must have misunderstood one of the earlier posts someone made..
Nice work man! I got a Jain zair model sitting around, I really like her disarm rule. Sounds really fluffy as a CC expert/ duelist. I plan on sending her in with a blob of banshees out of a WS.
Biel-Tan has some pretty awesome perks.
I will need to fix her as her foot sort of broke off from the slot... I was being too rough thinking it will be fine coz she metal Some greenstuff and scenic basing will solve the trick.
Offtopic - How do people feel putting aspects on 32's, specifically spiders, scorpions and banshees? The 28mm seem too small, cant really have fun with the basing.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
Yeah the doom/jinx/natural leader combo is pretty mighty and in small point games on smaller boards you can just delete things off the board. Weight of shots and rerolls is brutal, even against T8 you can just chip away at tough tanks if you have nothing better to shoot at.
@Argive, I feel Aspect Warriors should stay on 25s, the models aren't big enough to warrant a 32mm base and the latest Spiritseer is on a 25mm base so use that as a baseline for future Eldar releases.
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Post by: Galef
Tyranid Horde wrote:@Argive, I feel Aspect Warriors should stay on 25s, the models aren't big enough to warrant a 32mm base and the latest Spiritseer is on a 25mm base so use that as a baseline for future Eldar releases.
I agree, although Spiders and Hawks could work well on 32mm because they are JUMP INFANTRY.
Exarchs could also look good on 32mm since they have 2W. But in general, any Eldar Infantry that isn't JUMP, CHARACTER or a squad leader should stay on 25mm
-
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Post by: Spartacus
Definitely don't stick your Guardians on 32mm bases. It can sometimes be hard enough to get all 20 into Shuricat range from deepstrike as it is if there is any terrain in your way, no need to gimp yourself further.
92012
Post by: Argive
Yeah guardians should absolutely stay on tiny bases.
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Post by: Nevelon
Hawks could be on 32s due to being so darn top heavy. Spiders for being big. Everyone else should stay on small bases.
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Post by: slave.entity
I just painted my scorpion. Any ideas on how to keep this thing alive? If I don't get first turn, the lack of invuln is going to be... painful.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Deep strike it?
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Post by: slave.entity
Oh. Yep that's a good one. Here I am combing through ways to buff its defense first turn and I completely forgot the obvious one. That will work. Yes.
EDIT: On second thought, deep striking it has one serious problem: it comes in at the end of the movement phase, so that guarantees that it won't be able to move (and thus have an invuln) before the opponent's shooting phase.
Currently thinking about screening it with 3 crimson hunter exarchs and 2 wave serpents. With a cheap battalion and an autarch for reroll 1s, that's basically my entire list. I'm REALLY going to need that T1....
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Post by: Shadenuat
slave.entity wrote:EDIT: On second thought, deep striking it has one serious problem: it comes in at the end of the movement phase, so that guarantees that it won't be able to move (and thus have an invuln) before the opponent's shooting phase.
That's because Craftworlds need to unite and ask for Tallarn treatment for Cloudstrike.
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Post by: slave.entity
The thing is, if I do get first turn....
-2 to hit, T8 3+/5++/5+++ is going to be extremely painful for my opponent. That's effectively a permabuffed T8 plaguebearer unit right there... sitting 60" away out of range of most enemy guns...
As long as I'm not up against a true horde list I feel like I'll have a shot. I'll be screening against melee deep strikers with 2 wave serpents and 3 crimson hunter exarchs. An autarch with Faolchu's Wing to keep up with the scorp, providing reroll 1s on its BS3 4D6 S12 shots. A bikelock and bikeseer for jinx/doom/fortune. And 2 ranger units and a small guardian unit in the webway.
That's it. That's the whole list
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Post by: Shadenuat
As long as you actually have worthy targets to shoot, sure.
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Post by: NexAddo
I'm going to a tournament this weekend. First one that has allowed Forgeworld models of that point Value.
Bringing my Scorpion along as my only losses at my last tournament was against Knights lists.
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Post by: Kdash
Shadenuat wrote: slave.entity wrote:EDIT: On second thought, deep striking it has one serious problem: it comes in at the end of the movement phase, so that guarantees that it won't be able to move (and thus have an invuln) before the opponent's shooting phase.
That's because Craftworlds need to unite and ask for Tallarn treatment for Cloudstrike.
Pretty sure a generic FAQ cleared this up by saying that if a unit deepstrikes it counts as having moved it full movement distance.
As a result, on the turn it arrived, it would have a 5++ save as it’d have counted as moving 14”.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
^^ Nice catch
Got another game this evening, 2k against Ad Mech, haven't played against them before so we'll see how that turns out.
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Post by: Bharring
It's one of the best looking kits there is, and yours looks magnificent.
You win just for taking it.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
What's this about a Warp Spider spam list that I saw Argive on about in another thread here?
I don't have enough of them but I'm interested all the same.
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Post by: bullyboy
So how many points do you think the CHE will go up in CA2019? I don't think it will survive being touched, far too many of them about right now and they are a steal compared to Imperial flyers.
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Post by: Ratius
I'll be screening against melee deep strikers with 2 wave serpents and 3 crimson hunter exarchs.
Cant really screen with CHEs anymore due to the new aircraft rules.
Models can simply move over/under/through the bases now.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Kdash wrote:Pretty sure a generic FAQ cleared this up by saying that if a unit deepstrikes it counts as having moved it full movement distance.
That's for units which are removed from the table and then placed on it again.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
You can if you position the bases so they can't end their move beyond the aircraft base, that still counts.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Tyranid Horde wrote:You can if you position the bases so they can't end their move beyond the aircraft base, that still counts.
Can also put your unit behind CH base - they can't move over your unit, and can't place unit on the flyer base. I thought about using Vypers with Bladewind to do that. A flying barricade.
Kinda dumb exploit tho.
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Post by: Kdash
 Ratius wrote:I'll be screening against melee deep strikers with 2 wave serpents and 3 crimson hunter exarchs.
Cant really screen with CHEs anymore due to the new aircraft rules.
Models can simply move over/under/through the bases now.
First turn you can 100% screen with them – especially vs things like Da Jump etc. Same goes for turn 2 if you plan it properly.
Yes, units can move under them, but, they still have to start over 9” away from the screening flyer, meaning that they’ll almost always need a 12” charge to get under the flyer and into the unit behind them – which is then impossible for things like a 30-man Ork Boyz squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shadenuat wrote:Kdash wrote:Pretty sure a generic FAQ cleared this up by saying that if a unit deepstrikes it counts as having moved it full movement distance.
That's for units which are removed from the table and then placed on it again.
I’d argue that it carries over – will have to look to see if there is a separate faq line somewhere.
We all know you can Cloudstrike flyers/deep strike units with a minimum move distance, so, it has to imply that in order for them to not be destroyed at the end of the phase they arrive they have to have moved “some” distance. Or, we would then imply that if they survive then CHE can fire their weapons at BS2 due to not moving.
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Post by: Shadenuat
They count as moved just due to basic wording of reserves, we just don't know by how much.
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Post by: kingheff
I also looked at this to protect my Scorpion but couldn't find any faq that covered it beyond second hand posts that claimed you get full movement for deep striking unfortunately. I'd love it if anyone has any concrete evidence.
The nice thing about the Scorpion is the average of fourteen shots means it's great at destroying elite units as well as big single targets.
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Post by: Azuza001
You know i am surprised this hasnt come up anywhere yet. We want it to be maximum for our own purposes, as that makes sense. But look at other issues this can cause.
Flyers, did they move max or min? Or 1"? Are they in hover mode?
What about tilaren leman russes? Min movement means they can fire twice, max means once, so whats the answer?
I thought i read somewhere in an faq they said counts as max but i will be damned that i cant find it.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Tallarn Ambush was FAQed to maximum move.
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Post by: slave.entity
Bharring wrote:It's one of the best looking kits there is, and yours looks magnificent.
You win just for taking it.
Thanks. I'm really excited to field it.
Since it looks like the DS issue is unclear, I will probably end up deploying it in the corner and praying for first turn.
92012
Post by: Argive
Tyranid Horde wrote:What's this about a Warp Spider spam list that I saw Argive on about in another thread here? I don't have enough of them but I'm interested all the same.
***This is pure theory-hammer*** What I said was that I think spider spam might work. I would do that by running 20-30 spiders with fearless 6" from autarch with puritanical leader or 12" from Avatar could be neat (this would also benefit any guardians etc.). They would be base -2 to hit.(-3 with conceal/LFR or -4 if really need to stack) and a 3+ save. The idea is that you could place them across the board giving you a lot of board control and with their movement rule you could re-position almost anywhere on the board. I used a unit of 7 in my last game and they are pesky annoying and hard to remove. No punch but very good at frustrating your enemy and would have won me the game rather then drew if I didn't feth up my target priority and didn't notice two DAs I forgot to shoot at... I find their mobility is insane. Also the fact that they can randomly blow up from time to time is what 40k is all about..  The idea is to saturate objective holders to force opponents to waste shots in trying to remove them or give you an early points lead. Downside is that 30 Spiders is 498 pts(twin spinner exarchs) so yeah it does seem a bit like madness, I think running 3 units of 7 for 345pts would be more reasonable and is not that much of an investment for the mobility and choices that you get. My point on the other thread was that I will probably never try it because I'm not buying any more finecast and I'm sure there are other people with similar whacky ideas that would invest in the models to try things out if we had nice new plastic kits. Obviously I could be 100% wrong on all of this and my perception might be BS. That's just my take on it. Feel free to lynch me for heresy @ Azuza - I Agree that it should be applying for us too. And I argues that although its is not the same as you are DS and not re-deploying they cover a lot of questions in that FAQ which should really apply to DS as its essentially the same thing.. If you DS rangers in, you suffer move penalty for moving. But you are not allowed to get the benefit for moving if DS superheavy tank? I don't have the book in front of me because I'm at work but what does it say on the imperial armour invuln chart is it 1"-xx" = 6++?? or 0"-xx" = 6++. You could argue the lower end of the scale too. Because if you only need to move more than 0" so say 0.0000001", that's enough movement to trigger 6++??. Automatically Appended Next Post: slave.entity wrote:Bharring wrote:It's one of the best looking kits there is, and yours looks magnificent. You win just for taking it.
Thanks. I'm really excited to field it. Since it looks like the DS issue is unclear, I will probably end up deploying it in the corner and praying for first turn.
I would say discuss it with your opponent before battle and see what they think.
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Post by: Shadenuat
You don't need 30 Spiders. Around 15 is already ok to do what they do best - playing points, moving fast, finishing enemy units (which also can bring points, provided you know what you need to get points).
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
Sounds like a fun thing to do, I only have 7 spiders and it'll take a while for me to want to get some more.
Had my game against Ad Mech last night. He brought six of the retro dakkabots and I managed to outmaneuver them enough so they could never sit down and shoot twice. 54 shots rerolling because of Cawl is bloody nasty! Managed the win because of the speed and durability of my list.
MVP goes to my Fire Prisms this game, linked fire put in some serious work and they had some good chances to do chaff clearing too.
LVP goes to my farseer who whiffed on every single psychic test except one doom cast.
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Post by: Kdash
The problem I have with Warp Spiders and Scorpions alongside them, is that their “heavy” Aspect armour equates to a T3, 3+ save.
Sure, -2 to hit helps them, when they are more than 12” away, but their weapons are only a 12” range, so, you’re mainly just looking at a -1 to hit.
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Post by: Gir Spirit Bane
Now I came to elder for a tank army (I play tyranids and daemons, so I adore strong psychic powers but I wanted vehicles damn it!) but after reviewing and playing I have to admit my old Monster craze is slowly infecting me in the elder, and Wraithguard/blades and Wraithlords are beyond awesome models, so I have to ask you Dakka,
How would a Footdar list do with Avatar, Wraith constructs and then some faster elements (maybe some fliers or other movement shenanigans we're infamous for)? I'd be interested in trying it sometime!
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Post by: Daba
How are the flyers rated?
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Post by: Bharring
Gir Spirit Bane wrote:Now I came to elder for a tank army (I play tyranids and daemons, so I adore strong psychic powers but I wanted vehicles damn it!) but after reviewing and playing I have to admit my old Monster craze is slowly infecting me in the elder, and Wraithguard/blades and Wraithlords are beyond awesome models, so I have to ask you Dakka,
How would a Footdar list do with Avatar, Wraith constructs and then some faster elements (maybe some fliers or other movement shenanigans we're infamous for)? I'd be interested in trying it sometime!
Wraith constructs in a Footdar list are a bit odd, in that once you've exposed your Footdar, you're getting nothing out of your Wraith Constructs' durability. And the Avatar wants more bodies, not better ones.
If you have Fire Dragons next to Wraithguard, your Wraithguard are no better than Fire Dragons - as their toughness means nothing when they're not getting shot at.
If you have Banshees and Wraithguard, your Banshees will get shot up. And, if they somehow survive to engage, your Wraithguard won't keep up - so they can kill your Banshees in CC then handle your Wraithguard on it's own.
On the other hand, your wraith constructs can be exposed before your footdar engage - forcing your opponent to engage the tougher targets. And a Wraithlord near Platforms/Guardian backfielders/Reapers really changes the opponent's options.
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Post by: Tyranid Horde
As far as the codex entries go, you can't go wrong with a CHE or a Hemlock, or three...
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Post by: Shadenuat
Or six.
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Post by: Gir Spirit Bane
Bharring wrote:Gir Spirit Bane wrote:Now I came to elder for a tank army (I play tyranids and daemons, so I adore strong psychic powers but I wanted vehicles damn it!) but after reviewing and playing I have to admit my old Monster craze is slowly infecting me in the elder, and Wraithguard/blades and Wraithlords are beyond awesome models, so I have to ask you Dakka,
How would a Footdar list do with Avatar, Wraith constructs and then some faster elements (maybe some fliers or other movement shenanigans we're infamous for)? I'd be interested in trying it sometime!
Wraith constructs in a Footdar list are a bit odd, in that once you've exposed your Footdar, you're getting nothing out of your Wraith Constructs' durability. And the Avatar wants more bodies, not better ones.
If you have Fire Dragons next to Wraithguard, your Wraithguard are no better than Fire Dragons - as their toughness means nothing when they're not getting shot at.
If you have Banshees and Wraithguard, your Banshees will get shot up. And, if they somehow survive to engage, your Wraithguard won't keep up - so they can kill your Banshees in CC then handle your Wraithguard on it's own.
On the other hand, your wraith constructs can be exposed before your footdar engage - forcing your opponent to engage the tougher targets. And a Wraithlord near Platforms/Guardian backfielders/Reapers really changes the opponent's options.
Ah okay,so a lot of anti synergy but also an ability to pose awkward questions for my opponent. I'm going to have a think about it and see if i can come up with a cool list to run as an example!
Also in your opinion, how good are wraithblades? My issue against them is I love Wraithguard with D scythes FAR too much!
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Post by: slave.entity
So I ran the scorpion list last night against custodes. Maelstrom. Hammer and anvil.
It was also my first time running CHEs.
The fight was brutal. The scorpion shot the Orion dropship out of the sky T1 and forced the 8 custodian guard inside to footslog. The CHEs and the scorpion blew away the dawneagles and shield caps, and then spent the rest of the game ignoring/running away from the remaining ground forces while shooting them apart.
The Orion was actually insanely tanky. With doom, jinx, the autarch for rerolls, and an above average 19-shot roll on the twin pulsars, the scorpion only managed to inflict 18 damage on the Orion. Turns out T8 -2 to hit 5++ flyers are hard to kill
The CHEs also did extremely well. After seeing what they did to the dawneagles, I now understand why they are so much more competitive than hemlocks. They are simply perfectly suited to killing anything that can threaten them (fast, flying, hard hitting melee) and against any long ranged shooting they pretty much have a permanent -2 to hit (-3 if you need it) due to their 36"/48" guns.
Admittedly the matchup and deployment could not have been better for my list. But the maelstrom cards actually made it a close game and it was fun to see some new units on the battlefield.
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Post by: Gir Spirit Bane
Your scorpion looks AMAZING! How did you paint it???
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Post by: slave.entity
Thanks man. Just airbrushed it black and bone and did some edge highlights and decals. Still need to do details like gems and other random stuff.
This is the tactica thread btw, I'd be happy to answer questions in the P/M thread though
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