Bharring wrote: Asurmen gives DAs a 4++, which sounds great. But how much does it really do?
DAs are cheap-ish troops. T3 4+. So they're going to eat mostly AP0 or occasionally low AP. Any AP0 cares not one whit about a 4++. And they're small (5 models) with reasonable range, so they'll often get cover - meaning even AP-1 often won't care about the 4++. So it's not so common it matters. And, even when it does, you're often only cutting casualties by a margin. At the very best, you could be getting half the casualties - but usually it either doesn't matter, or only marginally matters. Going from 5+ to a 4++ on T3 infantry would matter on cheap GEQ like Guardsmen, but at 11ppm, a T3 4++ is still fragile.
To make matters worse, it's only 2/3 of the wounds on the unit that benefit. 1/3 of the wounds on the unit are the Exarch - who has a built-in 4++.
I actually find the 5++ Asurmen gives other Aspects more useful - because almost all the other aspects attract heavier weapons.
Asurmen is a fun beatstick, but I don't think a large core of DA with him in the center is going to do much.
I realy like the idea of asurmen especialy if you can have 3 big blobs of DA's. The only gripe I have is he does not gte path of command or let re-roll ones.
A blob of 10 with protect and alitoic would be -1 to hit and 3++ Pretty good for troops.
3 blobs of 10 with asurmen warlock and avatar at core fanning out across the board sound slike fun.
Have yet to test this.
@Argive is right. The 4++ given to the dire avengers is a much smaller bonus in comparison to the 5++ given to the other more elite apsect warriors that are generally more important or at least deal more damage. I've tried footslogging 30 dire avengers with asurmen and it really doesn't have enough power on foot. You've still got to stick them in a wave serpent so they can avoid getting stuck in combat. I've always found the invuln to be more useful on fire dragons, reapers, and shining spears anyway.
So I found a Wraithknight I think I will purchase. This makes me want to make a counter list to my normal Saim Hann/Alaitoc list
This list would be Alaitoc/Ulthwe.
I want to use the Wraith Host Specialist detachment
Spoiler:
Supreme Command (Alaitoc)
Spirit Seer with Protect/Jinx and Bane Relic
Spirit Seer with the Twilight Gloom
Warlock with Empower/Enervate and Singing Spear
5 WraithBlades
Wave Serpent with Vectored engins and 3 Shur Cannons
WraithKnight with 2 Heavy Wraith Canons and 2 Scatter Lasers
Battalion (alaitoc)
FarSeer with Doom+ Fortune and Singing Spear
Autarch Skyrunner
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
Night Spinner
Battalion (Ulthwe)
Warlcok with Enhance/Drain
Warlock with Quicken/Restrain
8 Storm Guardians
8 Storm Guardians
8 Storm Guardians
8 WraithGuard???
So the Dire Avengers form a Screen with the Farseer and spiritseer Around the Knight and Nightspinner [ the plan is to give the Knight Fortune for the 5+++ with LFR and alaitoc for -2 to hit and Twilight Gloom for a 2 + save and the 4++ from the specialist stratagem. so I need CPs
The Storm Guardians will advance with the Warlocks behind the Wave Serpent
The wraithblades will move inside the Wave serpent [hopefully it wont get shot down but if it does there is a warlock to soak up explosion kill and I hope the Warlock by the Knight can cast Quicken on the Blades so they can make a charge on turn 2]
The Wraithguard unit will be in the Webway. [what craftworld should they be in? If I go Alaitoc then they can use the Spirit Talk of the Seers. If I go Ulthwe then they cannot. I could make the Autarch an Ulthwe unit and have him move up to support them???
My question is what to do with the Autarch. I can keep him back to aid the Knight+ NightSpinner shooting.
He could be Ulthwe and support the Storm Guardians or stay Alaitoc and suppor the WraithGuard/Wraithblades
(but with the Spirit seers...he seems redundant)
good catch...I get so many of the the pschic powers backwards as well.
I can jinx ANYONE but I can only Protect infantry and bikers.
Same with all the powers.
Glad you pointed that out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now if only the Revenant Titan with the Fly Keyword was costed correctly then LFR and Alaitoc would be a nice combo for it.
Yeah if only! Unfortunately the titan doesn't get the alaitoc keyword though, it gets conclave? Instead I think.
Btw on superheavies, anyone got any tips for cobras or scorpions?
I ran the cobra the other night, I know it's overcosted but I needed something to kill knights. It was pretty tough (spirit stones, LFR, and it does get alaitoc) but the damage was way too swingy. Turn 1 it took out a knight, turn 2 barely managed to take down an armiger (thankfully it was doomed) , turn 3 did absolutely nothing, then died
What's our best combo for reliably killing knights?
Haha yeah for sure the scorpion is a lot less swingy than the cobra, but for 700+ points it's even more overcosted.
Thanks for the replies, looks like I'm going to be trying different combinations of those and see what works best, seem to running into knights everywhere atn.
I've tried 2 prisms before but found if you don't get first turn 1 is likely dead before you even shoot, so no linked fire, unless you take 3 I guess.
The trick is getting enough balance to be able threaten knights but at the same time deal with hordes. Some of the options above plus harlie soup with an outrider of haywire skyrunners might be the most flexible I think.
What's our best combo for reliably killing knights?
I hate to say it but allying in our dark cousins or Harlequins with plenty of Haywire weapons is usually the best bet then combine it with Doom from a Farseer for a a heap of Mortal Wounds. Rotated Ions shields and Ion Bulwark are no defense against Haywire.
What's our best combo for reliably killing knights?
I hate to say it but allying in our dark cousins or Harlequins with plenty of Haywire weapons is usually the best bet then combine it with Doom from a Farseer for a a heap of Mortal Wounds. Rotated Ions shields and Ion Bulwark are no defense against Haywire.
Strangely dark elfs and clown elfs answer the same way. Take a bunch of Haywire and bring a farseer for doom. Haywire is overwhelmingly Meh with out doom.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trashpanda wrote: Haha yeah for sure the scorpion is a lot less swingy than the cobra, but for 700+ points it's even more overcosted.
Thanks for the replies, looks like I'm going to be trying different combinations of those and see what works best, seem to running into knights everywhere atn.
I've tried 2 prisms before but found if you don't get first turn 1 is likely dead before you even shoot, so no linked fire, unless you take 3 I guess.
The trick is getting enough balance to be able threaten knights but at the same time deal with hordes. Some of the options above plus harlie soup with an outrider of haywire skyrunners might be the most flexible I think.
Not reliably, we don't usually play itc rules so if even a small part of it is visible it's fair game.
If not playing ITC Rules do you at least use plenty of LOS blocking terrain? I never play on a board without a good big ole chunk of terrain, some of it LOS blocking
Since 3rd edition I have literally hated what they did to the shuriken catapult.
The eldar are a dying race and they give their least trained units a 12" weapon ensuring high casualties.
Meanwhile armies like the Tau get super long range shooting.
For those who do NOT know....in the first 2 editions the Shuriken Catapult was the prized basic weapon used by characters, Rogue Traders and even Inquisitors.
It had a stat equal to the Storm Bolter but -2 saves vers the -1 for the bolter. It was technically the best range 24" weapon out there. (both had a chance at d3 shots and jamming)
Fast forward. I hate all the dice rolling in this edition. Then telling your opponent....these saves are at -3 or -4 and these are normal....just needless clutter.
At least I would like to see this suggested change. I want to know what other eldar players thought.
Make ALL shuriken catapults Assault 1 18" with a -1 AP.
Then give the Dire Avengers an ability called Bladestorm
In the hands of the Dire Avengers any roll of a 6+ to wound gives an auto additional wound.
This essentially keeps Guardians alive....are more versatile as they can stay at longer ranges. They will not do more damage but with the -1 AP there will be less dice rolling.
The Dire Avengers can show their superior training with the weapon...not just a longer carbine.
What would it do to Vehicles and Bikes with the twin linked cats? too strong or an improvement?
Since 3rd edition I have literally hated what they did to the shuriken catapult.
The eldar are a dying race and they give their least trained units a 12" weapon ensuring high casualties.
Meanwhile armies like the Tau get super long range shooting.
For those who do NOT know....in the first 2 editions the Shuriken Catapult was the prized basic weapon used by characters, Rogue Traders and even Inquisitors.
It had a stat equal to the Storm Bolter but -2 saves vers the -1 for the bolter. It was technically the best range 24" weapon out there. (both had a chance at d3 shots and jamming)
Fast forward. I hate all the dice rolling in this edition. Then telling your opponent....these saves are at -3 or -4 and these are normal....just needless clutter.
At least I would like to see this suggested change. I want to know what other eldar players thought.
Make ALL shuriken catapults Assault 1 18" with a -1 AP.
Then give the Dire Avengers an ability called Bladestorm
In the hands of the Dire Avengers any roll of a 6+ to wound gives an auto additional wound.
This essentially keeps Guardians alive....are more versatile as they can stay at longer ranges. They will not do more damage but with the -1 AP there will be less dice rolling.
The Dire Avengers can show their superior training with the weapon...not just a longer carbine.
What would it do to Vehicles and Bikes with the twin linked cats? too strong or an improvement?
thoughts??
I'm on exactly the same page. No wonder we're a dying race if we insist on sending our precious civilians into combat wearing paper armor and carrying a gun with the range of the average pistol. Why not give them lasblasters or the extended range cats?
The cats would need to go up in points a bit due to the increased range (I consider the ap change a wash). This would also make cats a bit less effective versus t5+ enemies and a bit better vs t3 enemies.
Spoiler:
Versus a rhino
Old: 2/3 x 1/6 x 1/3 + 2/3 x 1/6 x 5/6 = 0.13
New: 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/2 = 0.11
A 15% drop in effectiveness here (it will be steeper versus t8+).
Versus a guardsman in cover
Old: 2/3 x 3/6 x 1/2 + 2/3 x 1/6 = 0.28
New: 2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3= 0.30
A 7% gain in effectiveness here. The gain will be higher when shooting units that have a 5+ or 6+ save (such as guardsmen outside of cover).
On a personal note it would make firing the weapons more fun. Under the current rules my shuriken fire falls into two categories: rending hits and "the rest, that you get your full save against". 10% awesome but 90% meh.
Well, fluff wise you just wouldint take your guardians to war. They are suppopsedly only ever mobalized if there is no other options.
I do feel that this super advanced race that has exoskeletal bioarmour that mould itself to your body and has antigrav tanks and shiz.. would have figured out a way to shoot further than 12".
Granted the effective range is bit more because battlefocus, but unless you want to spend CP or a psychic slot for quicken, advance roll is too unreliable to get in range effectively. You kind of have to end up taking a big blob and webwaying in at 12" or keep them well back with a weapon platform.
In my last game They just stood there and shot a bright lance 2 times the entire game. Giving them celestial shield for 1cp is cool tho when an enemy tries to remove the,. if they sit on an objective far away.
Fluff wise I feel like they would have figured out how to shoot further than 12" tho...
If they ever do a decent-sized CWE release, maybe they'll redo the Guardian kit. But it's not even in the top 10 for CWE kits I want redone. It is one of the crappier plastic kits I've picked up, though.
CWE haven't had a decent-sized relesae since the Wraith releases of 6E (Wraith Guard/Blades, Wraithknight, SpiritSeer, Wraithfighter/CH all at once). We did get a Windrider kit and a Windrider Seer kit the following edition, but not much else for CWE since 5th.
I was pretty sure we'd get a Ynarri release before a Craftworlds update, but seeing how the zombie space elves are getting the WD treatment (so probably no Codex for a while), I'm hopeful there's a decent Craftworlds update in the works, maybe even tied to Vigilus.
I reckon: big-assed Avatar, plain Autarch with the Glaive (y`know, the frikken CODEX one), plastic Aspects with new weapon options in. Shining Spears.
Yriel is Yriel, a special character. You don't expect removing [insert amount of SM commanders and such released] and saying "well just use Kalgar as your commander".
Actually GW has said in the past that you can always use specific characters as their general roll. So you could use Calgar as your generic chapter master or Yriel as a generic autarch.
admironheart wrote: You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.
Ah, I missed that! In that case I'd actually make guardians cheaper, losing roughly 50% ranged effectiveness for 6" more range seems like a rough deal. This would put them slightly above a guardsman rapidfiring a lasgun at bs4+ when targetting geq, not even factoring orders in. In fact they would be outshot by unbuffed veterans at rapid fire range. This would put guardians in the 5-6pts/model range, and would effectively remove one of our infantry blending options.
I'd rather go the other way; the eldar are supposed to be lethal and fragile, and at least moderately smart about it. I think an assault2 18" s4 ap-1 gun on a guardian statline would cover those bases nicely, and I'd happily pay 9 (or even 10) points per model for that.
admironheart wrote: You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.
Ah, I missed that! In that case I'd actually make guardians cheaper, losing roughly 50% ranged effectiveness for 6" more range seems like a rough deal. This would put them slightly above a guardsman rapidfiring a lasgun at bs4+ when targetting geq, not even factoring orders in. In fact they would be outshot by unbuffed veterans at rapid fire range. This would put guardians in the 5-6pts/model range, and would effectively remove one of our infantry blending options.
I'd rather go the other way; the eldar are supposed to be lethal and fragile, and at least moderately smart about it. I think an assault2 18" s4 ap-1 gun on a guardian statline would cover those bases nicely, and I'd happily pay 9 (or even 10) points per model for that.
Aside the fact that our guardians should be in the 6 points range (just compare the tradeoff between storm and guardians defenders ) and the Catapult quick fix could be something like making it 24' rapid fire 1 and losing the rend or changing it to -1 and good to go.
At the end of the day we can argue but the whole truth it's that GW balance on even the most basic troops it's quite whacky mostly due legacy abilities and rules from previous edition poorly translated.
Battle focus changing from able to run without sacrificing shooting and allowing to move in and out of the front lines into the rush forward fix bayonets we have in this edition.
Shadenuat wrote: Yriel is Yriel, a special character. You don't expect removing [insert amount of SM commanders and such released] and saying "well just use Kalgar as your commander".
admironheart wrote: You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.
Ah, I missed that! In that case I'd actually make guardians cheaper, losing roughly 50% ranged effectiveness for 6" more range seems like a rough deal. This would put them slightly above a guardsman rapidfiring a lasgun at bs4+ when targetting geq, not even factoring orders in. In fact they would be outshot by unbuffed veterans at rapid fire range. This would put guardians in the 5-6pts/model range, and would effectively remove one of our infantry blending options..
See I think you are hung up on the dice numbers too much. Actually too many players get all fan girl about big numbers of dice.....lets ACTUALLY look at the suggestion. Someone summed it up like this to my proposal:
I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure this would make both avengers and guardians way worse in every scenario except shooting guardians at targets that are more than 12" and less than 18" away
Shuriken Catapults, right now, are S4 AP0 (AP-3 on 6s to-wound), meaning that for every 6 hits against Marines, they deal 2 wounds at AP0 and 1 at AP-3.
After saves, that's one and a half dead Marines.
Modified to be AP-1 all the time, they do 3 wounds at AP-1 to Marines.
After saves, that's one and a half dead Marines.
For Dire Avengers with the proposed Bladestorm, 6 hits does 4 wounds at AP-1.
After saves, that's two dead Marines.
So now we have a much more tactical shuriken catapult on our bikes, tanks and defenders..AND the Dire Avengers are even better than before.
I do think he based his calculations on hits.....so if you factor in the number of shots then the numbers would be more like this:
9 Guardians Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits....6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Guardians New suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits,,,3 wounds ...factor 3+ saves....1.5 dead marines
9 Dire Avengers Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Dire Avengers new Suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds....factor 3+ saves......2 dead marines.
So the results are indeed a kill drop off for more tactile use. So to modify....would you make the models cheaper? Change the Bladestorm ability from Dire Avenger only to all Shuriken cats?
Automatically Appended Next Post: 9 Guardians shoot guardsmen/Kabalites/etc 18 shots, 12 hits,8 wounds, 5+ save..odds are 3.95 dead T3 5+ save targets
Its not a simple pound for pound dice exchange. U unit of dire avengers is a lot more survivable,offers better range than guardians without cp investment /psychic investment.
How often are guardians ever going to shoot at something with shuriken? How often will they survive to get in range of anything. 12" range is a bad joke. Intercessor is what 32"...?
Realistically you are looking at a blob of 20 in the webway 1 volley maybe. After which they will all die. At least with DA you can tank on the exarcha invuln for free before starting to loose dudes.
I do think he based his calculations on hits.....so if you factor in the number of shots then the numbers would be more like this:
9 Guardians Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits....6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Guardians New suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits,,,3 wounds ...factor 3+ saves....1.5 dead marines
9 Dire Avengers Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Dire Avengers new Suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds....factor 3+ saves......2 dead marines.
So the results are indeed a kill drop off for more tactile use. So to modify....would you make the models cheaper? Change the Bladestorm ability from Dire Avenger only to all Shuriken cats?
I'm getting 3 dead marines for 18 shots, 18 * (4/6) * (2/6) * (2/6) for the nonrends, plus 18 * (4/6) * (1/6) * (5/6) for the rends equals 3 kills. So the new and old rules are just as effective versus marines if using assault2, assault1 halves their effectiveness.
The same goes for the dire avengers i fear, losing half their shots effectively neuters them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 9 Guardians shoot guardsmen/Kabalites/etc 18 shots, 12 hits,8 wounds, 5+ save..odds are 3.95 dead T3 5+ save targets
9 guardians against t3 5+ do slightly over 6 wounds by my calculations. 18 * (4/6) * (3/6) * (4/6) for the nonrends, plus 18 * (4/6) * (1/6) for the rends equals 6.09 kills. So the proposed rules would again almost halve their effectiveness versus geq in exchange for 6" range.
I'm actually not a fan of struggling to hold all the dice for a single unit's shooting attack in my hands, but given the dice-heavy state of the rest of the game we couldn't dial back only eldar basic infantry. That would just lead to every troop being rangers, and to vehicles avoiding shuriken weaponry (the weapon might be cheap then, but the cost of the vehicle itself is unchanged.).
I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure this would make both avengers and guardians way worse in every scenario except shooting guardians at targets that are more than 12" and less than 18" away
I agree with this assessment, with assault 1 you'd be trading 6" more range for a roughly 50% drop in effectiveness. That'd put guardians in the 5-6pts range imo.
On topic: how are shadow spectres these days? I'm looking for a new way to krump guardsmen after learning that frfsrf lasguns work just fine on swooping hawks.
Let me rephrase that: how do you use shadow spectres successfully? I have five that I want to field, I'm just not sure how to.
I know their rules, I'm just having a hard time imagining how to apply them due to their two quite different firing modes. Do you keep them hidden t1 to flame t2, do you keep then at skirmish distance with the 18" fire mode? Are they a suicide unit like fire dragons, or are they more like single wound terminators? What was your experience with them on the tabletop?
Can I please confirm something: a unit which enters from reserves (I.e. webway strike or whatever). CAN’T then “Fire and Fade” in the following shooting phase, correct?
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Can I please confirm something: a unit which enters from reserves (I.e. webway strike or whatever). CAN’T then “Fire and Fade” in the following shooting phase, correct?
correct RULEBOOK FAQ:
The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Let me rephrase that: how do you use shadow spectres successfully? I have five that I want to field, I'm just not sure how to.
I know their rules, I'm just having a hard time imagining how to apply them due to their two quite different firing modes. Do you keep them hidden t1 to flame t2, do you keep then at skirmish distance with the 18" fire mode? Are they a suicide unit like fire dragons, or are they more like single wound terminators? What was your experience with them on the tabletop?
I would skirmish at 18. Near an autarch if possible and 12" away because hopefully alitoic. The other firing mode is more for overwatch or if you really have to get too close.
I posted this before, but it got buried in other posts so asking again:
In our group we have a strong player currently doing GSC, and I’d like to give him a run for his money! I have a few preconceived notions, and I’d appreciate if the more experience among you could either confirm or deny my theory-hammer:
1) GSC probably hate massed shurican fire, but hate it less when it’s max range is 12”. To that end, shuricannon walkers > guardian defenders
2) GSC probably struggle a bit vs T6, so won’t enjoy having to fight Wraithblades/Wraithguard,
3)GSC probably hate -2 to hit flyers, but don’t typically bring enough heavy armour for the likes of Crimson Hunters to have lots of targets.
What do ye all think? Am I close, or way off? What have you guys found works against the Cult, and what do we need to watch out for?
NuhJuhKuh wrote: I posted this before, but it got buried in other posts so asking again:
In our group we have a strong player currently doing GSC, and I’d like to give him a run for his money! I have a few preconceived notions, and I’d appreciate if the more experience among you could either confirm or deny my theory-hammer:
1) GSC probably hate massed shurican fire, but hate it less when it’s max range is 12”. To that end, shuricannon walkers > guardian defenders
2) GSC probably struggle a bit vs T6, so won’t enjoy having to fight Wraithblades/Wraithguard,
3)GSC probably hate -2 to hit flyers, but don’t typically bring enough heavy armour for the likes of Crimson Hunters to have lots of targets.
What do ye all think? Am I close, or way off? What have you guys found works against the Cult, and what do we need to watch out for?
Cheers!
You're pretty close. I play both armies and I have played this matchup a few times. Believe it or not, if you really want to hose GSC, use Biel Tan instead of Alaitoc and go for massed shuriken weapons. The reason for this is that GSC can easily get inside of 12", even if you play carefully and try to avoid it. Our screening troops - Rangers - are pretty worthless against them and may just end up giving them extra movement on the first turn if you put them somewhere they can be charged. I have found that (again, believe it or not) shuricat windriders are a pretty good screen because they are fairly cheap now, can be placed sideways and end to end to take up a lot of room, and aren't particularly vulnerable to massed autogun fire, which is mostly what you are going to be facing from GSC first turn.
I also run a big group of 10 wraithblades with ghostaxes in my army. GSC hates them. With a 3+/4++ and T6, GSC has a hard time removing them efficiently, and they will slowly chop up any unit GSC sends to attack them. They double as a nice anvil that can stand in the way of your shooting units and/or slowly plod toward an objective in mid-field and say "come at me bro."
Finally, as you surmise, GSC has no really good way to do deal with our flyers. Don't overdo it on them, though, because GSC is often just a bunch of infantry, and things like Crimson Hunter Exarchs are great at killing tanks, but mostly wasted shooting at 7 point acolytes.
Regarding shadow spectres, I absolutely love them. The inbuilt minus to hit coupled with alaitoc makes them hard to take down, and anything that wants to charge them has to get through some nasty overwatch.
Give them farseer support with guide and watch them just delete units.
Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.
What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?
shortymcnostrill wrote: Thanks for the tips on spectres. I'll give them a try as a midfield anchor with some farseer support. Should be fun!
Im buying some myself because I like the sculpts and the ruleset seems like a much better version of the warp spider. if you run them as alitoic they will be base -2 to hit. With warlock/spirit seer casting conceal, they would be -3 if power goes off. If you use LFR strat and conceal they would be -4... Which is just bonkers as they cant be targeted by majority of the game.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Thanks for the tips on spectres. I'll give them a try as a midfield anchor with some farseer support. Should be fun!
Well, it will be a high priority target at the enemy priority schedule.
And if the enemy targets them, they will usually die.
So they are rather situational. I'm not using them anyway.
The Reapers in the backfield can also fill their role quite nicely.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.
What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?
Cheers!
Neil
On the DAs, always run MSU. The free Exarch upgrade is a BFD. It's a 4++ 2W model for no upcharge. Best with 2xASCs (although I arm each of my Exarchs differently, because I like them that way).
Not sure how it'll work out against GSC, but I would think they would do no better than Guardians, per-man. Sure, they have 18" instead of 12", but that doesn't help as much as you'd think against the faster armies. So you're stuck with way fewer bodies, thus way less dakka, and despite being marginally better at surviving Autogun damage per-man, worse at it per point.
If you can leverage the 18" range well, you might be able to do some damage - but GSC have a number of tricks.
Hopefully someone more experienced in DAs vs GSC can chime in - I'm curious too, because I'm not sure how they'll play out.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.
What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?
Cheers!
Neil
On the DAs, always run MSU. The free Exarch upgrade is a BFD. It's a 4++ rerollable 2W model for no upcharge.
Been mucking about with lists, and have come up with the following (last time we played was 1750, so seems reasonable to assume the rematch, whenever that will be, will be the same):
Theory is that Farseer sits behind large unit of Rangers, who I will deploy in the backfield rather than keep in reserve, to give them passive "Guide" with the Biel-tan Warlord Trait (just about everything else doesn't need the help to hit), and most likely "fortune" too to help soak up shots.
The Wave Serpents will each take a min unit of Defenders + Warlock, and fly around being irritatingly hard to remove until discharging their cargo at an opportune moment.
Weapons Platforms will sit on backfield objectives; Warwalkers and wraithlord can consume or act as more mobile tanks as appropriate.
I presume I don't need to explain what the flyers will do...?
Thoughts? Again, what should I be shooting dead first? Cheers!
If you want wave serpents to be irritating give them vectored engines. Always advance so -2 to hit sitting on objectives is mean. Id drop the flamers from wraithlord and crystal targeting matrixes and go full shuriken cannon plus vectored engines. -2 to hit and can still shoot.
Also maybe upgrade the warlock to a spirit seer for a better smite if you can. Not sure how usefull the shadoweavers are going to be. I used recently and was very underehelming. D6 shots and no base ap didint feel too reliable. Could drop them and take an autarch with reaper launcher to babysit the rangers and units and if you make him warlord you can gove him mark of imcomprobable hunter can kill some characters or force your opponent to be out of position with aura.
Sterling191 wrote: Shadow weavers are high powered rending mortars on a surprisingly tough platform that can be hidden in terrain and ruins. They're well worth taking.
At only couple more points I think the vibro cannon sounds more useful. I will be trying those out. D3 shots that get better with each platform fired. The first one doesnt have to hit to give benefit to the subsuqent hits.
Shadoweavers d6 shots and no inbuilt ap unless rending is a bit meh IMO.. I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors. If you end up rolling a bunch of 6's and deleting units with lots of rend then you are going to have a good time for sure.
Argive wrote: I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors
You had bad luck on your shot rolls, plain and simple. Same thing will happen with VCannons with the same luck, except you pay more and have to expose your objective campers to counterfire.
What makes shadow weavers solid is their capacity to hold terrain annoyingly well and contribute harassing fire anywhere on the board for a modest price tag. Combine with Doom/Jinx support and they do solid work.
Argive wrote: I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors
You had bad luck on your shot rolls, plain and simple. Same thing will happen with VCannons with the same luck, except you pay more and have to expose your objective campers to counterfire.
What makes shadow weavers solid is their capacity to hold terrain annoyingly well and contribute harassing fire anywhere on the board for a modest price tag. Combine with Doom/Jinx support and they do solid work.
Yeah. Don\t discount d6 shot weapons just because you roll low steadily. That's like claiming weapon is awesome because you roll 6's.
How good the vibro cannon would be rolling 1 shot all the time? 33% of that happening vs 16% for weaver anyway.
Thanks for the input, but alas that’s how I’ve built my Serpents and Wraithlord, and I don’t like to proxy! Also, I’m of the opinion triple-shuricannon is a trap, and that a heavy weapon with CTM is very handy on what is a very tough chassis... but that’s a discussion for another day!
I’ve found the Shadow Weavers to be very good, certainly best value for point out of the three platform options. They have such long range, and S6 will be useful vs. T3 hybrids (I’m guessing). Previously though I’ve always deployed them as one clump, and for sure that means they can benefit from “Vaul’s Battery” or whatever the Firetruck that strategem’s called when the situation arises, but as I’ve got the slots for 3 in the Spearhead, figured I’d get them separately and have options during deployment.
In other news, just got some cheeky intel from another member of our gaming group, who’s played the GSC player most recently, who says his opponent manages to fit a Brigade AND a Battalion into 1500pts, and manages to get two characters with “no overwatch” :/ could be tough! Any suggestions for countering?
Argive wrote: I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors
You had bad luck on your shot rolls, plain and simple. Same thing will happen with VCannons with the same luck, except you pay more and have to expose your objective campers to counterfire.
What makes shadow weavers solid is their capacity to hold terrain annoyingly well and contribute harassing fire anywhere on the board for a modest price tag. Combine with Doom/Jinx support and they do solid work.
Argive wrote: I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors
You had bad luck on your shot rolls, plain and simple. Same thing will happen with VCannons with the same luck, except you pay more and have to expose your objective campers to counterfire.
What makes shadow weavers solid is their capacity to hold terrain annoyingly well and contribute harassing fire anywhere on the board for a modest price tag. Combine with Doom/Jinx support and they do solid work.
Yeah. Don\t discount d6 shot weapons just because you roll low steadily. That's like claiming weapon is awesome because you roll 6's.
How good the vibro cannon would be rolling 1 shot all the time? 33% of that happening vs 16% for weaver anyway.
Im not sying its bad. Saying rolling d6 hits and then converting those hits into/wounds and damage is not neccarirly reliable going by perosnal experiance. LOS ignoring ability is decent, im not bashing on what it can deliver. Will definitely use shadoweavers again and see if I can get more mileage out of them.
V cannons having a flat damage 2 and wounding on 2+ from subsuquent shots vs majority of targets and stopping units from advancing, thus giving board control seems pretty potent too is all aim saying and shouldint be overlooked. Only a couple points more. Looks good on paper.. I will let you know how it plays out in practice when I use them.
I like the idea of sititng with 3 of these on an objective in the backfield and using vauls wrath to cripple some assulty stuffs. Maybe Im just mad who knows...
Its a shame they dont count as a single unit when you take multipels as a single heavy support choice. Because you could buff them to onoxious levels lol!
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.
What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?
Cheers!
Neil
Happy to help! I tend to build my models based on “rule of cool” more than whatever is the new hotness but in the cas did the wraithblades it paid off, as they are now a pretty good. Especially in the wraith host specialist detachment. I can see most varieties of wraiths being pretty good against cult other than the cannon variety.
As far as rangers go, I think you could still make them work as flankers. They can be placed on objectives to the right and/or left of your deployment zone to push back deep strikers. Just don’t make the mistake of putting them somewhere that could lead them to get a first turn charge. The reason I don’t like them for this matchup is they are really bad in melee, and have essentially no overwatch, and thus fold up like a wet noodle as soon as something threatens them in combat.
Dire avengers are pretty good in this matchup, in contrast. I would start them in wave serpents to protect them from autogun and autocannon fire, and then dump them out once the cultists start ambushing you. They have that tasty 5+ overwatch, and with reroll 1s from Biel Tan they can really kill a lot of 5+ save guys quickly. I also tend to use the guardian bomb (20 guardians in the web way with a shuriken cannon platform), which I hold back until he commits his forces. It should be able to delete a more expensive enemy infantry unit, even without Doom. Just don’t expect it to last long after the drop. Also, don’t be afraid to drop them in your own deployment zone if you need another blocking unit - this has won me games before.
A couple other things - never blow the serpent shield if you can help it. Most genecult lists use rock saws for anti-tank, and they do a flat 2 damage and per wound. Be aware of this and keep your shield up. The saws are a lot less dangerous at 1 damage per wound. Also, do your best to keep your psykers alive so you can deny his nasty psychic powers - particularly mental onslaught. If you are using a farseer and he takes that power on his Patriarch, hold back your deny for that power, and try to use spiritseers/warlocks to deny might from beyond, which is the other key power.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Previously though I’ve always deployed them as one clump, and for sure that means they can benefit from “Vaul’s Battery” or whatever the Firetruck that strategem’s called when the situation arises, but as I’ve got the slots for 3 in the Spearhead, figured I’d get them separately and have options during deployment.
FYI the support weapons don't have to be in the same grouping, they just have to have the same <Craftworld>. It also only works on 2 platforms regardless of whether they are in the same group or not. Also they don't even need to be the same weapon all that is required is that they are support weapons with the same craftworld designation.
A couple other things - never blow the serpent shield if you can help it. Most genecult lists use rock saws for anti-tank, and they do a flat 2 damage and per wound. Be aware of this and keep your shield up. The saws are a lot less dangerous at 1 damage per wound.
tneva82 wrote: Yep melee so wave serpent shield doesn't affect them anyway
D’oh! You’re right. I forgot about the fact that the serpent shield only affects shooting? I don’t think I’ve ever made the mistake in a game, thankfully, but it must have slipped my mind. In any case, it’s still probably worth holding back the shield as the cult can easily spam multi-damage ranged weapons (autocannons on goliaths, mining lasers, demo charges).
I'm trying to decide which is better a war walker with 2 Shuriken Cannons or a Vyper with 2 Shuriken Cannons. They are each the same point cost and I'm thinking of operating them in a group of 3.
I've never used Vypers but 3 War Walkers are almost always an auto-take for me because they're fun and they can dish out some mean firepower. The invulnerable save makes them pretty durable and if you take them with Alaitoc or Ulthwe it helps them even more. They also have battle focus which makes them great if you take them with stock cannons.
Neither is the unit I'd take on its own merits because their shooting is average and amount of shots is somewhat underwhelming, but they can be useful to fill a Brigade. I am more of a fan of Vypers probably, because of Fly. One Vyper with SC + TSC equals 2 Windriders with SC, but is obviously more survivable in every way.
aka_mythos wrote: Is there some build or version of the wraithknight that's a good counter to Imperial Knights?
Short answer, no.
Slightly longer answer, a Wraithknight with Sword and Shield has a slight edge over most Imperial Knights in melee (apart from the Gallant) IF it can get there without being blown to pieces on the way in. If you can manage to charge a Wraithknight into a shooty Knight like a Crusader or Castellan then you should be able to do 12 wounds on average which is a significant amount of damage. However the challenge is getting there.
Also if you don't kill the target on the charge (and you won't if it was at full health), then it will walk out of combat in its turn and blast you with its guns and as many of it buddies' guns as it takes to bring the Wraithknight down.
The best tools in our armoury for killing Imperial Knights are to bring in some Dark Eldar or Harelquin allies with massed haywire. Doom the Imperial Knight and then blow it away with a boat-load of mortal wounds. Next best choice is Jinx and linked Fire prisms followed by Jinx+Guide+Doom Reapers.
There are also some hidden counters in our army that will not drop a Knight by themselves but offer an efficient way of stripping off some extra wounds. Wraithlords with a Sword will hit and wound Knights on a 3+ in melee with no saves and D6 damage per wounding hit. They are fast enough to get close fairly quickly, durable enough to take a few hits on the way in and cheap enough that losing one won't be the end of the day.
In general it is very much a case of combined arms. We don't have anything like BA's Captain Smash who can reliably drop a Questoris on the charge but we do have plenty of units that offer a high damage output for their points. Put Doom and Jinx onto your target and open up with every long ranged gun you can manage.
Some changes with the Faq, Forge wraith units now gain Wraoth Construct so can be used in vigilus detachment, Wraithseer boosted up to T 8, makes me quite jappy for my wraith lists.
I am building a 1000 point list for a doubles tournament in september. I am need of some objective grabbers. Are 5 stock windriders able to furfill that role? Fast. Cheap and able to stay out of line of sight for most of the game most probably
My partner will play kabel drukhari with mostly venoms and Ravagers. My list revolves around rangers and fliers.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Does the nerf to Imperial Knights aid the viability of Wraithknights at all or are they still not good enough to take based on their current stats?
The melee wraith actually benefits well from ynnari.
Seems like GW broke Phantasm - due to wording of new rules for units removed and set up again, you can't move units deployed via it.
Although there's sorta loophole since it states models can't move "that turn", but Phantasm is "before first turn has begun". Still Phantasm does fall into category of stratagems used after deployment, so if they ask you, you got an answer there.
The problem with quicken is that you need to be able to cast it reliably to make the most of it. If you set yourself up to use it in your movement phase, and then fail to cast it, your spears are left with their asses in the breeze.
You can of course play it safe so that the spears have a back up plan if quicken doesn't go off, but then you're not making the most of it.
I only put quicken on Psykers that have a bonus to cast, either the reroll tests WL trait, or a warlock that can use the seer council strat (and a CP reroll).
karandrasss wrote: So is flyer spam going to be the only competitive list until CA2019?
Competitive yeah, but I wouldn't say the "only" competitive list. The FAQ did nerf them a bit in that you can not longer use them to outright block movement. Models can go "under" them now and suffer no penalties for falling back from them. You can still use them to block in a way, because models still cannot be "on" the Flyer's base, but you have to plan accordingly to make sure the enemy models cannot move past the Flyer's base to stop them
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The problem with quicken is that you need to be able to cast it reliably to make the most of it. If you set yourself up to use it in your movement phase, and then fail to cast it, your spears are left with their asses in the breeze.
You can of course play it safe so that the spears have a back up plan if quicken doesn't go off, but then you're not making the most of it.
I only put quicken on Psykers that have a bonus to cast, either the reroll tests WL trait, or a warlock that can use the seer council strat (and a CP reroll).
Agreed then, Protect it will be. Although I usually can get the Spears within 12" of something without Quicken, it just makes for an easier charge, or getting closer to the "real" target. I've failed it, but then been able to use Fire & Fade after shooting with them to get out of 12" range/in cover and then use Lightning Fast Reflexes if they shot them. -2 to be hit and potentially in cover keeps them fairly well durable. Plus Fortune. But Fortune + Protect would probably allow me to be more aggressive (i.e. not have to hide in cover)
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The problem with quicken is that you need to be able to cast it reliably to make the most of it. If you set yourself up to use it in your movement phase, and then fail to cast it, your spears are left with their asses in the breeze.
You can of course play it safe so that the spears have a back up plan if quicken doesn't go off, but then you're not making the most of it.
I only put quicken on Psykers that have a bonus to cast, either the reroll tests WL trait, or a warlock that can use the seer council strat (and a CP reroll).
Does the WT reroll both psychic test dice or just one? It specifies one hit/wound/save roll, but not psychic roll.
If you mean SotSV, it re-rolls Psychic Test, and that is, like a Charge Roll, two dice - when you re-roll Charge Rolls, you re-roll both dice, and I'd say so is true for Psychic Test or Deny the Witch.
Shadenuat wrote: If you mean SotSV, it re-rolls Psychic Test, and that is, like a Charge Roll, two dice - when you re-roll Charge Rolls, you re-roll both dice, and I'd say so is true for Psychic Test or Deny the Witch.
Agreed. While is does say you get to re-roll a 'single' hit roll, wound roll, save roll, it also says Psychic TEST, not roll. A Farseer with SotSV gets to reroll both powers, one for SotSV, the other for Runes of the Farseer
Although with my list, I prefer Mark of the Hunter for my Reaper Launcher Autarch to snipe characters. Usually 1 Command reroll + Runes of the Farseer are enough to make for a decent Psychic phase. I'll generally resolve my power in order of priority, so usually Doom, then Fortune for my Farseer, Jinx from 1 Hemlock, then Protect from the Spriritseer, then Smite from my other Hemlock The Farseer rarely fails both power attempts, thus only needing RotF and not SotSV
With the FAQ out, is the Wraithseer worth another look? It had a significant points drop months ago and now has additional bonuses post FAQ. I've used it in the past with the old points value and it was fun, but a bit on the 'meh' side.
It (the wraithseer) seems like a fun pick. Not strictly competitive but a solid distraction carnifex. What I like most is the idea of taking 3 of them in a supreme command with scatter lasers. You get 6 casts, 3 denies, 36 T8/3+/5++ wounds and the ability to do damage in the psychic, shooting, and fight phases for around 320 points. They're almost not worth shooting at for your opponent due to their low damage output, but they are also extremely cheap and would make your opponent think twice about getting too close to them with their characters and vehicles. 12 scatter laser shots could also add up over time if your opponent chooses to ignore them and with the Iyanden trait they essentially won't degrade. Would be extremely annoying to deal with, if not necessarily a huge threat. Good for controlling the board and bullying enemy characters.
The D-Cannon is cool as fudge. Fluffwise it sounds amazing and looks cool. And it packs a wallop.
But at 24" range Heavy D3 shots and 45 points...(70pts with the chasis) nah I dont think it cuts the mustard if tahts even a phrase... The LOS ignore is cool but then again with 24" is it worth it? I think no because you will probably have to move to get range anyway so the LOS ignore kind of becomes redunand.
The support weapon wants to chill in the backfield not move and support fire. SHadoweavers are cheap mortar options to help clear chaff. I personaly like what the vibro cannon brings to the table. If Dcannon was assult D3 I think it would be fun.
Feels like it should go on a wraithlord but to be honest at current points/rules I wouldint run it on a lord. I think it strapping a d-cannon onto is a wraithseer for fun would be cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
slave.entity wrote: It (the wraithseer) seems like a fun pick. Not strictly competitive but a solid distraction carnifex. What I like most is the idea of taking 3 of them in a supreme command with scatter lasers. You get 6 casts, 3 denies, 36 T8/3+/5++ wounds and the ability to do damage in the psychic, shooting, and fight phases for around 320 points. They're almost not worth shooting at for your opponent due to their low damage output, but they are also extremely cheap and would make your opponent think twice about getting too close to them with their characters and vehicles. 12 scatter laser shots could also add up over time if your opponent chooses to ignore them and with the Iyanden trait they essentially won't degrade. Would be extremely annoying to deal with, if not necessarily a huge threat. Good for controlling the board and bullying enemy characters.
I like the idea of a wraithseer. Imo Its a much bettter wraithlord. Yeah only one heavy weapon slot but more wounds, invuln and psychic. sounds worth it for 20more points.
Does he block targeting for other characters btw??
slave.entity wrote: It (the wraithseer) seems like a fun pick. Not strictly competitive but a solid distraction carnifex. What I like most is the idea of taking 3 of them in a supreme command with scatter lasers. You get 6 casts, 3 denies, 36 T8/3+/5++ wounds and the ability to do damage in the psychic, shooting, and fight phases for around 320 points. They're almost not worth shooting at for your opponent due to their low damage output, but they are also extremely cheap and would make your opponent think twice about getting too close to them with their characters and vehicles. 12 scatter laser shots could also add up over time if your opponent chooses to ignore them and with the Iyanden trait they essentially won't degrade. Would be extremely annoying to deal with, if not necessarily a huge threat. Good for controlling the board and bullying enemy characters.
I hadn't thought about three in a Supreme Command Detachment. I like the option of taking the Missile Launcher for utility, but costs a bit more than the Scatter Laser.
I may have missed something, but what powers are worth casting? They all felt very underwhelming, but the additional Deny attempts has merit.
Sarigar wrote: With the FAQ out, is the Wraithseer worth another look? It had a significant points drop months ago and now has additional bonuses post FAQ. I've used it in the past with the old points value and it was fun, but a bit on the 'meh' side.
Yes, I think the Wraithseer is definitely worth a look now. More than that, I would say it is the best option we have for an Ynnari Warlord!
Here is an idea for an Ynnari Spearhead detachment that looks pretty promising on paper. I have taken the Visarch as my mandatory Triumvirate HQ because he is the cheapest and rerolls of 1 in melee is not bad. Feel free to substitute him for Yvraine if you want more psychic support or even the Yncarne if you want another big monster.
HQ Visarch
HQ Wraithseer (Warlord: Walker of Many Paths, Relic: Lost Shroud, Psyker, Shield of Ynnead)
Heavy: Wraithlord, 2 Shuricannons and Glaive
Heavy: Wraithlord, 2 Shuricannons and Glaive
Heavy: Wraithlord, 2 Shuricannons and Glaive
This is simple, a big blob of Wraithlords Advancing towards your opponent, firing their Shuricannons for chaff clearance as they go and benefiting from a 5++ thanks to "Shield of Ynnead". The Spiritseer gets builtin rerolls thanks to his Warlord Trait as well as CP regen on a 5+. Once they reach combat, they hit like a freight train and can easily drop a Knight on the charge or spread out to threaten multiple targets. The above build comes in at just over 600 points and provides you 42 T8 wounds behind a 3+/5++ (with a 6+++ if you chuck the Yncarne instead of the Visarch).
The Lost Shroud halves all damage that the Spiritseer takes and gives him a 5+++ as well. Even though his Character status does not protect him from shooting with 12 Wounds, he will be pretty hard to get rid of. An alternative combo would be the WL trait "Lord of Rebirth" which gives him a 5+++ as well as regenerating 1 wound at the start of each turn. Then him him the Mirrogaze relic for -1 to Hit on all attacks targeting him.
I am interested in where this is going. I tend to use my assault elements in a counter attack, but this Ynarri themed Spearhead looks promising and fun. I really like the Wraithlord model and would love to be able to field three and not feel like I completely gimped my army.
Thanks for the feedback. It gives me some ideas to work off of.
I do not believe the wraithseer replaces his unique psychic powers with the Revenant discipline. With that being the case, just swap the Visarch for Yvraine and get access to 2 powers.
However, I don't know why you would take wraithlords over more wraithseers now. Compare the 2.
Wraithlord with glaive 95pts
Wraithseer with spear 100pts
The Lord does have built in shuricatapults and access to 2 heavy weapons, but the seer has 2 more wounds, an inbuilt 5+ invulnerable, is a psyker, and is a character therefore can be given relics and traits. He also has access to 2 heavy weapons the Lord does not get plus his spear gets to reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles.
To me, it's just not a competition unless you were taking 3 seers and 3 Lords (which is actually kind of interesting in itself).
As mentioned in the Ynnari thread, my little go to detachment may be a Supreme Command with 2 wraithseers (one with walker of many paths and lost shroud, other with lord of rebirth for +1CP), Yvraine, 5 wraithblades and a wave serpent. I'm thinking of giving the Seers wraithcannons over D-cannons just because I expect them to be moving (although the one with walker gets a reroll per turn so may benefit more from a D-Cannon)
The D-Cannon is cool as fudge. Fluffwise it sounds amazing and looks cool. And it packs a wallop.
But at 24" range Heavy D3 shots and 45 points...(70pts with the chasis) nah I dont think it cuts the mustard if tahts even a phrase... The LOS ignore is cool but then again with 24" is it worth it? I think no because you will probably have to move to get range anyway so the LOS ignore kind of becomes redunand.
The support weapon wants to chill in the backfield not move and support fire. SHadoweavers are cheap mortar options to help clear chaff. I personaly like what the vibro cannon brings to the table. If Dcannon was assult D3 I think it would be fun.
Feels like it should go on a wraithlord but to be honest at current points/rules I wouldint run it on a lord. I think it strapping a d-cannon onto is a wraithseer for fun would be cool.
That's a shame. I was hoping they might be a useful addition to my DE army. I'd even made a model for one.
bullyboy wrote: I do not believe the wraithseer replaces his unique psychic powers with the Revenant discipline. With that being the case, just swap the Visarch for Yvraine and get access to 2 powers.
However, I don't know why you would take wraithlords over more wraithseers now. Compare the 2.
Wraithlord with glaive 95pts
Wraithseer with spear 100pts
The Lord does have built in shuricatapults and access to 2 heavy weapons, but the seer has 2 more wounds, an inbuilt 5+ invulnerable, is a psyker, and is a character therefore can be given relics and traits. He also has access to 2 heavy weapons the Lord does not get plus his spear gets to reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles.
To me, it's just not a competition unless you were taking 3 seers and 3 Lords (which is actually kind of interesting in itself).
As mentioned in the Ynnari thread, my little go to detachment may be a Supreme Command with 2 wraithseers (one with walker of many paths and lost shroud, other with lord of rebirth for +1CP), Yvraine, 5 wraithblades and a wave serpent. I'm thinking of giving the Seers wraithcannons over D-cannons just because I expect them to be moving (although the one with walker gets a reroll per turn so may benefit more from a D-Cannon)
For my army, it creates a solid firebase. I like a Wraithlord with 2 AML: I don't take the Glaive or Flamers so the model is relatively cheap and fists give me fixed damage vs the Glaive d6. Yvraine being able to provide a 5++ aura has appeal. With a Wraithseer with another AML, the entire detachment is around 650 points and provides the counter attack capability in my list. I also run two other Battalions with over 60 Guardians, so this new detachment has me quite interested.
The big thing I am looking at is whether the loss of Doom for these models are worth being run as an Ynarri detachment. I'd also lose the Alaitoc Trait. I'm not sure, but I think I'd also lose the Autarch reroll 1 to hit. For me, a few things to consider.
I personally have not been a fan of the D Cannon this edition and I don't put a lot of stock into a Wraithcannon for this model due to my army build.
Supreme Command Wraith Host Detachment. A whole passel of pain with rerollable charges and T8 3+/5++ with a -1 to be hit or a 6+++ at a minimum of 300 points.
I used a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords at a campaign weekend. It was pre-new-Ynnari, and I was using Iyanden for them to keep their stats from degrading.
Their main virtue is that even a concentration of firepower is unlikely to get rid of all of them. If you can shelter each of them differently to force your opponent to split fire, you can keep them all alive and operating at full or close to full efficiency due to the Iyanden trait (or via other methods from Ynnari). When two or more of them hit, they hit like a mountain.
It wasn't a competitive environment though, so take with a pinch of salt.
So this must have been an event using pre-Ynnari White Dwarf and pre-faq rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for Wraithseers, I’m not feeling them myself.
Sure, a single 1 as Ynnari could work with the half damage taken trait, but, then you’re just asking to give up Warlord on the first turn, as, if you can kill a Knight in 1 turn, you can certainly kill a Wraithseer in 1 turn. Likewise, if you’re facing 3, if you can kill a Knight, you can kill 2 non-WL Wraithseers.
Same goes for supreme commands of 3. It all comes down to what you’re giving up in order to put the 3 in, and, it is worth re-noting that they cannot cast Smite. Their 3 powers are a 6+++ for Wraithblades/Guard/Lords, an additional D6 for advancing and charging (discarding the lowest) for the Blades/Guard/Lords and a -1 Ld penalty for all enemy units within 6” of the Seer. Pretty shockingly bad powers imo, especially if you’re just running 3 of them without Blades/Guard/Lords. They can also cast 2 powers each as well, so the 3rd one is never going to be casting anything and the 2nd, only 1 power.
They also only have 4 attacks as well, so, you’re not going to be fighting your way through hordes very well, Knights will still destroy you, you’ll never reach a T’au gunline and Flyers will still move block you with ease due to the base 8” move and large round base – not to mention the fact that movement gets degraded on the profile as well.
If they could smite, then maybe they’d be worth looking at in numbers, but, as they are, without them supporting other Wraith units they just feel like 100+ points of target practice that you’re taking away from the rest of your army for a turn.
So you probably can't take revenant powers on a wraithseer, but if you take one in a wraith detachment, you can swap out one of it's powers for twilight gloom.
Compared to a base wraithlord though (85 pts to 100), a Wraithseer gets a free, better ghost glaive, two more wounds, a deny the witch attempt, self buffs in the form of it's powers (including maybe Twilight Gloom), and access to relics and warlord traits. Oh, and an invulnerable save.
it loses access to the two shuriken catapults/flamers, and one heavy weapon, but can take a wraith cannon, or D-cannon.
karandrasss wrote: Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?
Not really. Apart from the random d3 rolling that is going to suck at the time that you needed it the most, linked fire stratagem needs you to pick a single enemy target for all prisms. Alaitoc Hemlock is going to use 'lightning reflexes' on the first prism and then you need a 6+ to hit. Better to get shining spears and assault them.
karandrasss wrote: Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?
Not really. Apart from the random d3 rolling that is going to suck at the time that you needed it the most, linked fire stratagem needs you to pick a single enemy target for all prisms. Alaitoc Hemlock is going to use 'lightning reflexes' on the first prism and then you need a 6+ to hit. Better to get shining spears and assault them.
But Shining Spears need so much support to get to their target and not die instantly that I wonder if they're still worth bringing, especially against other matchups. You can always force your opponent to use the -1 strat elsewhere or capitalize when they don't
Eldarsif wrote: Doesn't the Hemlock get to overwatch? All those autohits.
Unless being charged by a unit that specifically has "ignores overwatch" rules, yes.
Side note: has anyone played with Hornets recently? I've been working on re-tooling my competitive lists and still have landed on anything I'm in love with. I was revisiting these and at 110pt with dual hornet pulse lasers, they're looking like an attractive option, similar to how I've used dissie ravagers in the past.
Pretty good survivability with -2 to hit with Alaitoc and advancing. A unit of 3 are prime candidates for guide and debating between doom or fortune as the secondary power.
Hornet lasers are heavy so no -1 from advancing I'm afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for flyers, dark reapers look like the best option, always hitting on threes is pretty hard to beat. Hemlocks also look good for obvious reasons.
kingheff wrote: Hornet lasers are heavy so no -1 from advancing I'm afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for flyers, dark reapers look like the best option, always hitting on threes is pretty hard to beat. Hemlocks also look good for obvious reasons.
Well suppose I should have just factored in the cost for the CTM as it's pretty much an auto-include.
karandrasss wrote: Are Fire Prisms a good counter against flyer spam? Anyone got the math?
Not particularly. As others have said, you need the strat to get any mileage and even then, LFR hits it pretty hard.
Dark Reapers are by far and away our best ranged anti-aircraft unit. Always hitting on a 3+, solid damage output and access to the flakk-equivalent stratagem if you give the Exarch a missile launcher.
kingheff wrote: Hornet lasers are heavy so no -1 from advancing I'm afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for flyers, dark reapers look like the best option, always hitting on threes is pretty hard to beat. Hemlocks also look good for obvious reasons.
Well suppose I should have just factored in the cost for the CTM as it's pretty much an auto-include.
Remember that CTM only works if you are targeting the closest enemy unit. So, you have to pretty much get next to a flyer to use it effectively.
I think they have their place for 110 points. I've been trying to work them into my lists after their points change. 2 Hornets with an Autarch nearby provides a fairly solid firing platform.
In regards to Hornets, my initial idea a while back was a unit of 3 with Shuriken Cannons and Vectored Engines.
-3 to hit when Alaitoc, but, at 300 points for 18 shots hitting on 4's it's a little hard to justify at times - especially when they will melt in combat vs most credible threats.
Twin star cannons looks like the way to go with hornets to me. You lose a couple of shots versus the pulse lasers and a bit of range I think. But you save a decent amount of points, 86 Vs 110.
Three in an outrider detachment for 258 pts would be great support for a flyer/fire prism anti tank list.
kingheff wrote: Twin star cannons looks like the way to go with hornets to me. You lose a couple of shots versus the pulse lasers and a bit of range I think. But you save a decent amount of points, 86 Vs 110.
Three in an outrider detachment for 258 pts would be great support for a flyer/fire prism anti tank list.
But then you still have the issue that you’re paying for the chassis and an ability that gives -1 to hit after advancing that you’ll never use.
If you want starcannons you can always run squads of Vypers, Crimson Hunters or War Walkers instead.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I always figured War Walkers were a better platform than Hornets.
They're pretty comparable in their efficiency IMO. WWs have their innate deep strike and 5++, but the Hornet has a better armor save, fly and two additional wounds (plus the capacity to take vehicle gear). Then there's the Wasp, which is basically a combo of the Hornet and WW for a smidge less than the Hornet.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I always figured War Walkers were a better platform than Hornets.
They're pretty comparable in their efficiency IMO. WWs have their innate deep strike and 5++, but the Hornet has a better armor save, fly and two additional wounds (plus the capacity to take vehicle gear). Then there's the Wasp, which is basically a combo of the Hornet and WW for a smidge less than the Hornet.
and now in my opinion, we should add the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons into the conversation. Points per platform... I think it is part of the discussion:
What is the best platform for Starcannons (or similar firepower - Hornet Pulse Laser, Suncannon, etc..)? Not only cheapest to deploy, but toughest and most durable as well. (given options presented).
Right now my vote has been going to the planes, but I have a pile of Hornets who would love to be used, same goes for war walkers and such. What are peoples thoughts?
I tend to take a squadron of 3 war walkers armed with shuriken cannons but that's simply because I don't have enough flyers (I have one Hemlock) or any hornets. I tend to find their deep strike is always a handy trick and they're decent for shifting back field objective holders. They're a cheap distraction too.
WWs biggest drawback is that they're in the Heavy Support role, which is incredibly crowded. Move them to Elite and they're basically an auto-take IMO. Its part of why im more aligned to Hornets or Wasps, as outside the obligatory big squad of Spears FA is reasonably open for CWE.
Who takes the heavy support slot? Dark Reapers seem awfully expensive now that it can't shoot twice but still needs support to do work and not die instantly.
karandrasss wrote: Who takes the heavy support slot? Dark Reapers seem awfully expensive now that it can't shoot twice but still needs support to do work and not die instantly.
Pretty much anyone who isnt running a flyers-only list.
Reapers
Prisms
Night Spinners
Wraithlords
Support Weapons
War Walkers
karandrasss wrote: Who takes the heavy support slot? Dark Reapers seem awfully expensive now that it can't shoot twice but still needs support to do work and not die instantly.
Pretty much anyone who isnt running a flyers-only list.
Reapers
Prisms
Night Spinners
Wraithlords
Support Weapons
War Walkers
It's crowded as hell.
I feel night spinners are underrated, but that’s just me
I feel night spinners are underrated, but that’s just me
They're niche, but we tend to play with a ton of terrain at my LGS. S7 D2 rending indirect fire with Doom support is fantastic, especially at the new price point.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!
Its the same chassis that the Falcon and Prism use (you can even substitute a Serpent sans fins in a pinch). Just magnetize the top turret and swap out depending on what you're running.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!
Its the same chassis that the Falcon and Prism use (you can even substitute a Serpent sans fins in a pinch). Just magnetize the top turret and swap out depending on what you're running.
I'm completely aware of what they are, but I'm afraid I'm way past the stage for magnetising, all of my falcon chassis tanks were built years ago.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I would try them, but I don't fancy buying three more heavy support grav tanks!
Its the same chassis that the Falcon and Prism use (you can even substitute a Serpent sans fins in a pinch). Just magnetize the top turret and swap out depending on what you're running.
I'm completely aware of what they are, but I'm afraid I'm way past the stage for magnetising, all of my falcon chassis tanks were built years ago.
Oh how I wish GW would make a 3 tank one box set that’s just the slightest discount since you’re buying 3.
karandrasss wrote: Are Prisms any good? They're like less consistent Predators.
I think they are valid. Bit squishy but what in our codex isint? Linked fire with 3 prims is alpha strike goodness. Admitedly(for good reasons) people only ever use the d3 shot option but they do have 3 firing modes so in theory can be quite versitile.
Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.
bullyboy wrote: Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.
What are you playing against? It takes 320pts of them and 1CP to kill a Predator. Meanwhile T7 makes them vulnerable to most anti-tank, without invuln saves.
bullyboy wrote: Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.
What are you playing against? It takes 320pts of them and 1CP to kill a Predator. Meanwhile T7 makes them vulnerable to most anti-tank, without invuln saves.
You could say the same about predators really, long range anti-tank doesn't come cheap in any army in the game besides Guard. Im struggling to think of anything in the codex that will reliably do the same amount of damage at range, for that amount of points.
The 1CP does more than just buff their firepower, its absolutely critical that all of your tanks can focus on the same target no matter where they are, considering they might otherwise have to move and sacrifice a -1 to hit penalty and potentially their shoot-twice ability. The flexibility allows you to work around any issue that the battlefield throws at you.
Plus they get CW traits and Preds dont get anything, if you wanna continue that comparison.
Argive wrote: In a vacum 3 prisms with linked fire give you either(assuming they didint move over the allowence):
6x D6 S6 AP-1 D1
6XD3 S9 Ap-3 D D3
6x S12 Ap-5 D D6
All re-rollls. Yeah they are squishy but man thats some decent firepower. However is it 471pts decent...?
I mean, just compare it to the other options.
Using the str 9 option (its AP -4 btw), 2 Fire Prisms using the linked fire stratagem will on average kill a Leman Russ or similar type target more than 50 percent of the time (average of 6.3 wounds done per tank).
2 Crimson Hunter Exarches, probably the most comparable ranged AT choice in the codex, probably won't kill it, only doing 4.7 wounds on average each. This is in spite of the fact that they are more expensive and are flyers. They're a bit more survivable with the extra -1 to hit, but its also a big tradeoff in terms of firepower.
A Hvy Wraithcannon Wraithknight does only 6.3 wounds on average to a tank.
A Hemlock does on average 8 wounds to a tank and is still a great value choice if you want flyers, but it isn't really long ranged, has to be pretty close which creates more potential issues.
Nightspinners and Warwalkers don't really compare at all.
What if there is no big target that requires 3 Fire Prisms? Then you're left with 1 that can shoot, 2 that may be able to shoot but have to take a penalty to hit, maybe even shoot only once instead of twice.
karandrasss wrote: What if there is no big target that requires 3 Fire Prisms? Then you're left with 1 that can shoot, 2 that may be able to shoot but have to take a penalty to hit, maybe even shoot only once instead of twice.
Yes that might happen but with a bit of foresight you can avoid most of those sorts of issues. I enjoy the little minigame within the game how how best to position my 3 FPs to maximize results while minimizing the risks. Don't forget that they have a pretty good range of firing modes making them effective enough against just about any target even if it isn't their most ideal. Can't say that about a CHE for example.
What would you suggest people use instead?
To quote my boss, "All I'm hearing is problems, give me solutions!"
Four do ~6 damage, maxed out squad with Guide kills a T7 tank a turn.
The problem is penalty to shoot when moving, positioning, range, that they can be charged, survivability, etc.
Which is why everyone plays flyers - they simply provide you more options in combat. And Alaitoc of course.
I used to run 2 Fire Prisms for a while, but my regular opponents soon figured out that killing one of them more than halved their combined firepower, so now I run 3.
With 3, Linked Fire becomes possibly the most cost effective stratagem in the game. The rerolls are of course a massive buff, but the ability to share LoS is almost as important. It's very hard to hide from all 3 when deployed properly, and the -1 to hit for moving one of them 8" is perfectly acceptable cost to pay when necessary. Don't forget you have the option to jump one 16" to make a character the closest target (that can really upset people).
I've never lacked targets for the strat to be worth it.
I wouldn't call that stratagem really cost effective, because without it Fire Prisms are, well, just not effective at all. You pay to make FPs comparable to other options in the Codex, and get something extra out of this (like great range), but without stratagem, FPs are pretty bad.
I think if you have to pay CP to make unit work it's not very effective.
That's a fair criticism of Prisms, but almost doubling the damage output of 3 units, whilst letting two of them shoot round corners, is more than you usually get for 1CP.
I have to agree, the 1CP is great value for the cost.
The whole point of CPs are to make units effective and sparing one CP per round is pretty decent considering the amount of CP you can get and potentially farm back.
5x Dire Avengers 5x Dire Avengers 5x Dire Avengers 5x Dire Avengers 5x Dire Avengers 5x Dire Avengers
10x Howling Banshees, Ex + Executioner 10x Striking Scorpions, Ex + Claw 8x Fire Dragons, Ex
10x Swooping Hawks, Ex 9x Shining Spears, Ex + Laser Lance 5x Warp Spiders, Ex + 2x Death Spinner
Fire Prism Fire Prism Fire Prism
15 CP will be a real treat. Linked Fire and Seer Council every turn, liberal use of LFR and FAF, with the option to use WWP, Entrenched Positions and Phantasm as much as needed. It's more of a fun list, although I have found Footdar to be more effective than I expected.
karandrasss wrote: What if there is no big target that requires 3 Fire Prisms? Then you're left with 1 that can shoot, 2 that may be able to shoot but have to take a penalty to hit, maybe even shoot only once instead of twice.
Yes that might happen but with a bit of foresight you can avoid most of those sorts of issues. I enjoy the little minigame within the game how how best to position my 3 FPs to maximize results while minimizing the risks. Don't forget that they have a pretty good range of firing modes making them effective enough against just about any target even if it isn't their most ideal. Can't say that about a CHE for example.
What would you suggest people use instead?
To quote my boss, "All I'm hearing is problems, give me solutions!"
Personally, I take 3 Prims AND 3 Flyers. The Prisms can fill multiple rolls and I really like that versatility. They have a lot of potential, and that can often draw fire away from my Flyers, so that's a bonus.
Even when there aren't big targets, the Prisms don't have to Link Fire, or rather I don't have to LF all 3. 2 can LF to down a "medium" target, leaving the 3rd as a "clean-up" option if needed Sure it's not as efficient without LF, but if 2 Prisms are enough to remove a target, allowing the 3rd to fire at something else is a bonus IMO.
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
10x Howling Banshees, Ex + Executioner
10x Striking Scorpions, Ex + Claw
8x Fire Dragons, Ex
10x Swooping Hawks, Ex
9x Shining Spears, Ex + Laser Lance
5x Warp Spiders, Ex + 2x Death Spinner
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
15 CP will be a real treat. Linked Fire and Seer Council every turn, liberal use of LFR and FAF, with the option to use WWP, Entrenched Positions and Phantasm as much as needed. It's more of a fun list, although I have found Footdar to be more effective than I expected.
I havent been able to come up with a brigade list i like at 1750 yet. Im working towards a dual battalion.. gotta build & paint some more DA's & storm guardians.
I've been mulling 3 Prisms 3 Flyers since they killed Ynnari, but my meta is somewhat competitive, and I can think of a lot of counters/tough situations for Prisms. Flip side is 50% of the deployment maps are long table sides, where Prisms will really shine.
karandrasss wrote: I've been mulling 3 Prisms 3 Flyers since they killed Ynnari, but my meta is somewhat competitive, and I can think of a lot of counters/tough situations for Prisms. Flip side is 50% of the deployment maps are long table sides, where Prisms will really shine.
Admittedly I haven't played as much 8E as I would like, but the only game I've lost with my 3 Prisms/3 Flyers list was against a Triple Renegade Knight, T-sons list.
What clinched that game for my opponent was his Flying DP and 30 Tzaangors. I couldn't deal with them AND the Knights at the same time. I was able to drop 2 of the Knights early on, but buy that time the Tzanngors dropped in and started charging and fighting twice.
He also managed to keep 1 infantry model alive and surrounded so I couldn't fall back and shoot the Tzaangors
It was brutal, but aside from that match-up, 3 Prisms and 3 Flyers has been my competitive go-to list
Hmmmm cp adds value to certain tactics and makes certain tactics possible where before they would not be. Whats the point of having CP if you dont spend it?
The way I see it you can create your army to be heavy strat reliant and have a battle plan in advance for your CP spend without wiggle room, or make it strat un-reliant and spend the CPs on re-rolls. Or soemthing in between which is where I like to sit.
bullyboy wrote: Sorry, but prisms are outstanding. With the cheap 1CP linked fire strat and shoot twice stationary they do stellar work. I have 2 currently but have a 3rd built and ready for paint.
What are you playing against? It takes 320pts of them and 1CP to kill a Predator. Meanwhile T7 makes them vulnerable to most anti-tank, without invuln saves.
Took mine to LVO and they were always outstanding. With 2 Hemlocks up close and these at range, plus a wave serpent with axe guard in them, target priority was difficult. As Alaitoc, they always earned their points. Even the dispersed shot was useful when playing Orks. 2D6 S6 is AP-3 is basically a suncannon (granted no 2D).
Definitely a huge fan of the prism.
Does anyone happen to know if Dire Avengers are any good at the moment?
Also, regarding the Dire Avenger Exarch, are any of the melee options worth it?
(I'm still playing around with the idea of adding a small, Ynnari-Eldar detachment to my DE army and Dire Avengers seem to be the only Eldar troops with any melee potential.)
Shadenuat wrote: What exactly Orks have that Prisms can earn back their points shooting a dispersed shot?
anything i want, he never got close to my tanks so they could unload 2D6 S6 hits on him over several turns. It's better than a lascannon any day of the week when just facing hordes. It's multi-use makes it more effective against a variety of opponents. If I had brightlances instead, they'd be useless.
vipoid wrote: Does anyone happen to know if Dire Avengers are any good at the moment?
Also, regarding the Dire Avenger Exarch, are any of the melee options worth it?
I prefer Dire Avengers to Guardians. If you want small, cheap squads for CP farming, 5 Avengers are cheaper than 10 Guardians. Their improved range means they can shoot without automatically getting charged next turn. They are a bit tougher too.
They are nothing special but we need Troops for CPs and I find a mix of Avengers and Rangers works best for me. I don't think the melee options are worth it really. The Shimmershield has some value but a 5++ only kicks in if the enemy is firing Ap-2 or better weapons at you (or AP-3 if you are in cover). If you opponent is turning his big guns on lowly Avengers then the game is probably not going your way. I prefer the second catapult on the Exarch as it is nice firepower boost and pretty cheap.
I sometimes run 10-man squads in Transports or even in the webway to take Objectives, particularly with the CA2018 missions that use Continuous scoring. Not as efficient as 20 guardians for dropping a Shuriken bomb but if you are playing for objectives rather than tabling, the better range and durability come to the fore.
The key to keeping Avengers alive if you want to score objectives is to present the enemy with a range of more dangerous targets (not hard for Eldar to do). If you are playing a game without continuous scoring, they can work well be screening your more dangerous units from assault.
Against enemies that like to get close, I often run Avengers in Serpents for layered defense. I castle up the army with Reapers, Fire Prisms and other shooty units in the centre, surrounded by a shell of Serpents with a mix of Avengers and Wraithguard inside. When the enemy gets close or charges, They have to get through the Serpents first. Hopefully they won't have the muscle to kill the Serpents on the charge (although some armies can). In your turn the Serpents pull back while still being able to shoot (thanks to FLY) while the units inside disembark and hose the enemy with shurikens and D-scythes.
Used well, these units can normally buy a couple more turns for your shooty units to chew through the enemy and any counter-charge units to hurt them. Target priority is the key to pulling this off but very few armies can withstand several turns of Eldar firepower while they slowly hack their way through the Wraithbone hulls of your Wave Serpents.
yep, but they're -1 to hit, and can get to -2 to hit with LFR. This also means that they are ignoring the hemlocks etc. Like most things, you can't look at them in a vacuum. hemlocks and serpents applying direct pressure allows the prisms to sit back and perform. My experience anyway.
Pop LFR then they shoot at the next Prism. They are great on long table side deployments but I don't see 3x Linked Fire not being crippled at least 50% of the time from deployment maps alone.
The beauty of linked fire is that you can often get away with only exposing one prism to the enemy.
karandrasss wrote: They are great on long table side deployments but I don't see 3x Linked Fire not being crippled at least 50% of the time from deployment maps alone.
I have played Prisms on all sorts of deployment maps and have never had serious trouble. If you are playing short table edges that means that they are starting off further from the enemy which means their range is another layer of protection.
I'm referring to short table edges as Dawn of War and the likes, might have it mixed. And no matter the terrain, you're almost guaranteed to be down to two Fire Prisms by turn two. Unless you're only fighting static gunlines or something. And I wonder about the value of just two Fire Prisms.
vipoid wrote: Does anyone happen to know if Dire Avengers are any good at the moment?
Also, regarding the Dire Avenger Exarch, are any of the melee options worth it?
I prefer Dire Avengers to Guardians. If you want small, cheap squads for CP farming, 5 Avengers are cheaper than 10 Guardians. Their improved range means they can shoot without automatically getting charged next turn. They are a bit tougher too.
They are nothing special but we need Troops for CPs and I find a mix of Avengers and Rangers works best for me. I don't think the melee options are worth it really. The Shimmershield has some value but a 5++ only kicks in if the enemy is firing Ap-2 or better weapons at you (or AP-3 if you are in cover). If you opponent is turning his big guns on lowly Avengers then the game is probably not going your way. I prefer the second catapult on the Exarch as it is nice firepower boost and pretty cheap.
I sometimes run 10-man squads in Transports or even in the webway to take Objectives, particularly with the CA2018 missions that use Continuous scoring. Not as efficient as 20 guardians for dropping a Shuriken bomb but if you are playing for objectives rather than tabling, the better range and durability come to the fore.
The key to keeping Avengers alive if you want to score objectives is to present the enemy with a range of more dangerous targets (not hard for Eldar to do). If you are playing a game without continuous scoring, they can work well be screening your more dangerous units from assault.
Against enemies that like to get close, I often run Avengers in Serpents for layered defense. I castle up the army with Reapers, Fire Prisms and other shooty units in the centre, surrounded by a shell of Serpents with a mix of Avengers and Wraithguard inside. When the enemy gets close or charges, They have to get through the Serpents first. Hopefully they won't have the muscle to kill the Serpents on the charge (although some armies can). In your turn the Serpents pull back while still being able to shoot (thanks to FLY) while the units inside disembark and hose the enemy with shurikens and D-scythes.
Used well, these units can normally buy a couple more turns for your shooty units to chew through the enemy and any counter-charge units to hurt them. Target priority is the key to pulling this off but very few armies can withstand several turns of Eldar firepower while they slowly hack their way through the Wraithbone hulls of your Wave Serpents.
Thanks, Karhedron, that's a really useful writeup.
I thought Fire Prisms were a proven and effective tool in the Eldar army? They're reasonably easy to hide and they all don't have to sit beside each other to use linked fire. I've not had very many problems when playing them either.
I also like to use barebones Avengers as a cheap CP generator and backfield objective holder along with a squad of Rangers. They don't do a lot, but they're easier to hide than 10 Guardians and they're cheap too. It lets me spend points on more Wave Serpents.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I thought Fire Prisms were a proven and effective tool in the Eldar army? They're reasonably easy to hide and they all don't have to sit beside each other to use linked fire. I've not had very many problems when playing them either.
Eldar in general are a faction that rely on avoiding a straight up fight in an open field. Use terrain to your advantage and Prisms are rock solid.
karandrasss wrote: How do you 3x Prism players deal with Dawn of War/short table side deployments? So many things can cripple the linked fire shooting so easily.
Only 2/6 deployment maps actually let the opponent deploy opposite the prisms along the long table edge ("Dawn of War" and "Dawn of War withapointybit"). Half the time you are deploying second anyway so can avoid being opposite the opponents anti tank, and if you are deploying first Phantasm is always an option. But Prisms are rarely my opponents top priority anyway, at least when taking 3 of them, if you only have 2 then killing one is quite attractive.
However I'd never considered the deployment map to make much difference to the viability of prisms. "Football Pitch" lets you be further away, but limits the LoS advantages you get from deploying prisms far apart, meaning it's actually possible for the opponent to hide an important unit or 2 from them.
Bring flyers with you and they'll get targeted over the prisms. On turn 1 you'll have them hidden and/or screened.
No.
Flyers are the next thing you shoot, if you don't have better targets, because you will waste a lot of shots especially if they LFR and you're BS4+. You can't hide all three except in short table range deployment where you have range advantage. Screens are good against melee but not Riptides, flyers, Lootas, Ravagers, even Dreadnoughts, any decently ranged AT really.
I've started taking 6x5 of these when running 2x Battalions.
Other than 20x Guardians in the Webway, our troops are a tax, which means they need to be cheap. This means it's a choice between:
5x Rangers 8x Storm Guardians 5x Dire Avengers
Other than paying the troops tax, these units have a few jobs:
1)Camping backfield objectives. 2)Scrapping over midfield objectives 3)Screening out deepstrikers 4))Move blocking advancing enemies
Rangers 1) They are the best at camping an objective in your own deployment zone due to having long range guns whilst being the most durable choice, as long as nothing gets close to them. 2)They are not very good at going out and claiming midfield objectives. Their durability drops a lot if they have to break cover and get close to the enemy, they hit on 4s if they move and can't shoot if they advance. The deepstrike ability is actually not much use against opponents who play well. If your opponent has played poorly you might be able to land right on an objective, but if you have to land nearby, survive a turn, then try to wrestle the objective from a grot squad, you're going to struggle. 3) They can screen against deepstrikers, but are the most expensive option to sacrifice in this way, and are not well suited to moving forward to screen the front of your army. 4)Likewise they are not ideally suited to running forward to move block advancing enemies.
Storm Guardians 1) Strictly worse at this than rangers. Both melt if anything gets close, but the Guardians are much more vulnerable to long range shooting, and have 0 damage output at range. 2) They also have practically 0 damage output at shorter ranges, and the higher body count coupled with low leadership is a liability. They do not do well at scrapping for midfield objectives. 3)The lowest cost and biggest footprint makes them the ideal troop for sacrificing to things like teleporting Orks, and for filling up the space in your backfield. 4)Similarly they are fine for rushing forward to move block, and don't have any other utility that is sacrificed in doing so.
Dire Avengers 1) Not as good as Rangers at camping but better than Storm Guardians. 18" range means they can shoot stuff in the middle of the board from your DZ. They're slightly less durable than rangers at close range if both are in cover, but will last longer in hth. 2) Fighting for midfield objectives is where the DAs really stand out vs. the other options. They actually have decent damage output at medium range, and don't sacrifice any of it moving at full speed. An average threat range of 28.5" means a few units of them can converge on a doomed target and be a real threat. They won't be taking on elite units, but can duke it out with other cheap objective grabbers thanks do their anti-infantry shooting, 3+ in cover, -1 to hit if you can dance in 12"-18", and overwatch on 5+. 3) The higher cost and smaller footprint makes them a worse screen than Stormies, but the 5+ Overwatch means they might do a little damage, and punishes units that fail a charge out of deepstrike. 4) I'd put them above Stormies as a move blocker because they can rush out to get in the way of an assault unit whilst still shooting to full effect, then get a bit more damage out of the 5+ to hit overwatch.
TLDR: Avengers are the best all round choice for cheap troops. Take a unit or two of Rangers for camping backfield objectives, then pay the rest of your tax with 5 man Avenger squads.
Whatever they determine to be the biggest/most immediate threat. Wave serpents are usually a priority target as de-meching a unit of Fire Dragons or Wraithguard before they move is like killing two birds with one stone. Shining Spears tend to attract a lot of fire for some reason.
I'm not going to argue that the most competitive lists need 3x Prisms btw, just that they are good and worth considering.
Second, I would suspect a major reason they don't show up in many top 10s is because at the end of the day they are just a tank in a Knight meta.
Most players bring firepower to drop Knights, which is the same firepower needed to erase tanks. Flyers get an inherent -1 to hit which can stack with Alaitoc, so they worry much less about this kind of firepower.
But Prisms can potentially stay out of LoS with the help of some CPs
Deploy all 3 in a way that they are behind terrain, yet at least 1 Prism has a spot it can move to within 8" (half its move rate) and be in LoS of the other 2.
Move that Prism up, used Linked Fire. The Fire & Fade to move it back out of LoS. Remember that the first Prism to "trigger" Linked Fire is also the last the fire, meaning it combos well with Fire & Fade.
It's CP heavy to do this every turn, but can be very usefull if needed and the terrain is compatible (which in my experience, it never is)
I haven't seen Fire Dragons in a loooooooooooong time. And if you want to use them, they should be deep striking. Shining Spears are easier to hide turn 1 than 3 tanks. It doesn't take much to kill 1 Prism, but a lot to kill a flyer unless you tech for it. So really, only a bad player will not try to kill a Fire Prism to avoid the laser of doom (which is a pretty big, immediate threat).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are you guys not fighting things that can move and shoot?
Having extra 5 Dragons in your list is not bad, and I've seen them. But you don't want to DS - it is incredibly easy to screen from them for you opponent even just by accident.
You want to advance from WS, maybe with Matchless Agility, and then try and use FnF to hide somewhere or at least get 2+ save.
Shadenuat wrote: Having extra 5 Dragons in your list is not bad, and I've seen them. But you don't want to DS - it is incredibly easy to screen from them for you opponent even just by accident.
You want to advance from WS, maybe with Matchless Agility, and then try and use FnF to hide somewhere or at least get 2+ save.
This sounds like a friendlier meta (Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents) and no doubt 3x Fire Prisms will do well here.
Well the Fire Dragon just has weaknesses, namely the need for a delivery system and poor survivability. So typically you deep strike it and hope for a good trade off before they die next turn, but other wise you get more consistent output from flyers/War Walkers/even Dark Reapers.
karandrasss wrote: I haven't seen Fire Dragons in a loooooooooooong time. And if you want to use them, they should be deep striking. Shining Spears are easier to hide turn 1 than 3 tanks. It doesn't take much to kill 1 Prism, but a lot to kill a flyer unless you tech for it. So really, only a bad player will not try to kill a Fire Prism to avoid the laser of doom (which is a pretty big, immediate threat).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are you guys not fighting things that can move and shoot?
I'm not going to argue for the virtues of Fire Dragons! They were just an easy example of something that would rate as a higher threat.
Only a bad player won't shoot the Prisms first? If Prisms are so scary that they will be every opponents first target then surely they are a good unit? It's not like they are a glass hammer whose damage output massively exceeds their durability. They are a good all rounder that puts out reliable damage and requires a fair amount of effort to kill. It's not like Predators where you can kill one (a lot easier than killing a Fire Prism) then ignore the other 2, the third Prism is for redundancy.
If I'm going second I expect to lose a unit. If that unit is a Fire Prism that's an acceptable loss to me, because I (like most of my opponents) don't consider them to be my best units.
Is 3x Prisms as good as 3x Crimson Hunter Exarchs? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean they're not still good.
People just like shooting at Prisms more than at -2 Flyers. Not only they see Prism as easier target but that way they also lower your chances for Linked Fire. Prisms also keep you from losing if rule about Flyers is in effect and Flyers don't score points, right?
Yes, 3 Prisms are scary (unless you have invulns everywhere). My point was always that it's easy to take that to 2 Prisms, which is much less scary. They're not bad, but I suggested it's easy to kill a Prism turn 1 which people seem passionate about disagreeing with.
Well, it's 33% less scary if you kill 33% of the Prisms.
Maybe Prisms will become more common in a less knight heavy meta, along with other tanks. They are more durable than other tanks of a similar stat line, thanks to Alaitoc and LFR, but they have more competition from good flyers than other armies tanks do.
karandrasss wrote: Are you guys not fighting things that can move and shoot?
Sure but between the regular -1 to Hit for Alaitoc, LFR and F&F, my Fire Prisms usually last long enough to make a big hole in things. Granted I don't play top-level tournies but my LGC is fairly competitive and I often play people testing out their tourney lists. With a bit of care, I can usually make sure that not enough units can draw LOS to my Prisms to get significant damage through the -2 to-Hit.
As crazy as it sounds I think id rather run 3 night spinners in a list with 3 fliers over 3 prisms. However I would rather run 3 prisms on their own over 3 night spinners.
Caveat: I only have the one tank at the moment so not speaking from any experience rather then vicarious bat reps and "on paper" ideas. Call meh crazy.
I hated Spinners for their random shots and random AP, but I admit the 112 ppm price tag looked very tasty to me lately to add a substantial amount of D2 into army. With that price tag a T7 tank does look quite spammy and sturdy. You're almost getting a third Spinner for free compared to pre-FAQ Spinners, and that makes them more than a third more durable to Prism.
If only they could move and shoot without penalty for some extra lifting on the battlefield like screening things or going for a point, or had a Flamer-like alternative mode...
The Falcon with Starcannon is also pretty cheap. But again, the way penalty from moving can sometimes stack with degradation and -1 to hit (a few armies do have it), you end up overwatching with your heavy weapons if you want to move. Feels bad man.
Well, I already tried 3 Falcons (stop looking at me like that), I had some ideas on running CH Exarches with Starcannons, some Vypers (also with Starcannons, for just 55 ppm, maybe even Saim-Hann) and Spinners together to brutalize gilmarines and some other W2 stuff. Maybe I will one day.
karandrasss wrote: Been mulling Warp Hunters myself, just a couple of them, to form the new backline now that it's not double shooting Dark Reapers in there.
If youre wanting back-line, Warp Hunters are pretty inefficient. They do less damage than a Fire Prism (WITHOUT linked fire) in spite of costing more, until you can get them into flamer range. Thats where they shine. Go full Cult of Speed, in your enemies face with nasty guns turn 1.
On the other hand, their rule of cool is through the roof. I'll never get tired of lobbing black holes at people, Eldars coolest tech by far.
karandrasss wrote: Been mulling Warp Hunters myself, just a couple of them, to form the new backline now that it's not double shooting Dark Reapers in there.
If youre wanting back-line, Warp Hunters are pretty inefficient. They do less damage than a Fire Prism (WITHOUT linked fire) in spite of costing more, until you can get them into flamer range. Thats where they shine. Go full Cult of Speed, in your enemies face with nasty guns turn 1.
On the other hand, their rule of cool is through the roof. I'll never get tired of lobbing black holes at people, Eldars coolest tech by far.
My current plan is 2 Warp Hunters, 2 Night Spinners and 2 CHE.
But I agree, running the Hunters up the table and flaming whatever you want dead, alongside doom is fantastic. I just don’t expect them to survive after 1 turn of shooting
Argive wrote: Lynx with vibro lance anyone ? On paper sounds like an amazing infantry hozer. But think 3x nightspinners at the same price are far more efficient.
400 points for 16W in T7? Yeah I'm sure Spinners are more efficient.
Bring flyers with you and they'll get targeted over the prisms. On turn 1 you'll have them hidden and/or screened.
Running both of them, and this is absolutely true. Eldar fliers are much more dangerous than prisms so they get shot at first. Prisms are a little expensive for their damage output but they have good versatility and linked fire is extremely strong. There's not much in Eldar that can choose between 2d6 S6 shots or 2d3 S9 shots, since Eldar are normally so specialized. They're a nice addition to most lists, esp as alaitoc.
Argive wrote: Lynx with vibro lance anyone ? On paper sounds like an amazing infantry hozer. But think 3x nightspinners at the same price are far more efficient.
400 points for 16W in T7? Yeah I'm sure Spinners are more efficient.
Last I checked it was more around 370pts i think. Its pretty much the embodiment of glass cannon but still id love to hose down some blobs of infantry with that sucker. Not enough to spend money on it though..
Another wierd one is the scatchat knight. Sounds awesome fun and fluffy. Costs ridonculus point
GW kinda forgot (insert GoT meme here) that Lynx can also be armed with Sonic lance when they made it cost points, and Scatterlaser is not optional so 392?
How likely do you guys think we will see points decreases now that ynnari is no longer an issue?
Personally, most of the stuff is priced reasonably fairly (apart from the knight and some aspects). We are paying a lot for T3 W1 models with no invulns..
All things being said, my biggest gripe is warlock conclave on foot. Would love to see these guys dropped to about 35 points if not to the original 30.
Better e-mail the rules team, remind them that they increased the points costs of Dark Reapers and Shining Spears because they did things they no longer do anymore.
Better e-mail the rules team, remind them that they increased the points costs of Dark Reapers and Shining Spears because they did things they no longer do anymore.
I agree with you 100% but think there is very little chance of this happening.....
Enjoy 6 months of playing flyers before they get nerfed. Hopefully by then we'll all have our Knights armies ready so we can play Knights vs Chaos Knights for 2020
But as a faction have far more ways to mitigate that squishiness. The net result after buffs, strats, etc is that Reapers are by far better than other Dev equivalents. It's just that the cost is in other places (Characters, strats, etc)
Speaking of which, if not a drop in points, Warlocks could at least use an extra wound. The chain explosions you can get from eldar mages can be hilarious but ultimately don't help.
Yeah I wasnt really talking about the reapers because they are bloody good at what they do and I think are priced fairly. Maybe 1 points drop on the reaper launcher but thats just me being greedy lol.
things like prisms, guardians, falcons, knights. shining spears maybe are a bit too expensive.
Yeah, Guardians do look a bit overpriced since Avengers got a price-cut. Pretty mu the only time I see Guardians run is a 20-man Guardian bomb in the webway.
grouchoben wrote: Prisms are too expensive now? Sheesh. 157 is a steal for what it does, the only reason Prisms aren't commonly taken is because of eldar flyers.
Guardians is an interesting one. I could imagine a 1pt drop on them, or a 5pt drop on their platform.
Except you sort of would run 3 prisms which is 471 pts.
I don't ever envision taking one prism over one serpent.
Obviously could be wrong. Just my take on it.
But the guardians are overpriced when compared to other chaff I think. 12" is very weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karhedron wrote: Yeah, Guardians do look a bit overpriced since Avengers got a price-cut. Pretty mu the only time I see Guardians run is a 20-man Guardian bomb in the webway.
I do run a 10 man blob for Eldrads bodyguard in a token ulthwe patrol and they have some uses. They seem to either be targeted straight away or ignored so useful as a threat saturation at least.
I think unless you are running 20 man blob with protect, celestial shield and an avatar then they are only valid in the web way..
I ran triple hemlock today instead of reapers. Best decision I ever made with my pure CWE list. Having a minimum 16" move on my entire army gave me incredible board control and the ability to concentrate fire exactly where I needed it at all times.
The rest of my list included spears, serpents and jetbike psykers. Also had 40 guardians and rangers in deep strike.
Not having anything to screen is my favorite way to play pure CWE right now. Backlines are a liability when our faction doesn't have access to effective infantry screens. With rangers losing the ability to infiltrate and CWE losing Ynnari doubleshoot, I don't see reapers being very viable in anything nastier than a semi-competitive meta. They are too fragile and they don't have the insane alpha damage they used to have with doubleshoot, so it's unlikely they will make their points back unless your opponent misplays considerably. Reapers are just marginally better devastators at this point. Not worth babysitting with the rest of your army, especially considering how effective a mechanized eldar force can be with its army-wide fly and absurd speed.
That said, I don't believe CWE will be top tables competitive because there is no good answer to true horde lists. Scatterbikes are our best bet but unfortunately they suffer from the same issue as reapers in that pretty much every gun in a competitive list will kill them efficiently.
Spears are still viable without Ynnari double action because quickened, protected, fortuned, concealed spears are a monstrously lethal cruise missile with very few counters. It's not that easy to kill -2 to hit, 2+/3++/5+++ 2w models that can hide in the corner and smash into your backlines from 40" away.
Reapers on the other hand, without rangers to infiltrate the midfield or doubleshoot to T1 alpha strike hard targets, will just get picked off from afar by heavy weapons, or swarmed by close combat units, or shot apart by rapid firing deep strikers. Anything that can kill a devastator marine can kill a reaper. And pretty much everything kills devastators
I think the next few months are going to be interesting. With all the changes the FAQ brought it will be enlightening to see whether some of the previous Aeldari point costs are accurate or not. I have found Reapers to be a nice addition, but at the same time I haven't fought many melee oriented armies with them and most of the time the few deepstriking units I have to contend with are focusing on other threats.
I'm feeling compelled to make a Wraithost Supreme Command Detachment work. I'm not sure what to add in the rest of the list to support it though:
Spiritseer
Wraithseer
Wraithseer
10x Wraithblades
Wraithknight, Sun Cannon 2x SL
1034pts
I've played around with this before, and the Wraithblades can become ridiculously tough with the 4++ passed from the Spiritseer, on top of the usual Craftworld buffs. 48 T8 Wounds with 3+ 5++ across the 3 big monsters should take a while to chew through too.
What to take with it though?
More Wizards are needed for the buffs, along with at least one Battalion for the CPs. Will I need 2 Battalions worth of CPs though?
slave.entity wrote: I ran triple hemlock today instead of reapers. Best decision I ever made with my pure CWE list. Having a minimum 16" move on my entire army gave me incredible board control and the ability to concentrate fire exactly where I needed it at all times.
The rest of my list included spears, serpents and jetbike psykers. Also had 40 guardians and rangers in deep strike.
Not having anything to screen is my favorite way to play pure CWE right now. Backlines are a liability when our faction doesn't have access to effective infantry screens. With rangers losing the ability to infiltrate and CWE losing Ynnari doubleshoot, I don't see reapers being very viable in anything nastier than a semi-competitive meta. They are too fragile and they don't have the insane alpha damage they used to have with doubleshoot, so it's unlikely they will make their points back unless your opponent misplays considerably. Reapers are just marginally better devastators at this point. Not worth babysitting with the rest of your army, especially considering how effective a mechanized eldar force can be with its army-wide fly and absurd speed.
That said, I don't believe CWE will be top tables competitive because there is no good answer to true horde lists. Scatterbikes are our best bet but unfortunately they suffer from the same issue as reapers in that pretty much every gun in a competitive list will kill them efficiently.
Spears are still viable without Ynnari double action because quickened, protected, fortuned, concealed spears are a monstrously lethal cruise missile with very few counters. It's not that easy to kill -2 to hit, 2+/3++/5+++ 2w models that can hide in the corner and smash into your backlines from 40" away.
Reapers on the other hand, without rangers to infiltrate the midfield or doubleshoot to T1 alpha strike hard targets, will just get picked off from afar by heavy weapons, or swarmed by close combat units, or shot apart by rapid firing deep strikers. Anything that can kill a devastator marine can kill a reaper. And pretty much everything kills devastators
This very much aligns with my views for CWE in 8E. Even prior to the Ynnari nerf, I've always been hesitant to pull the trigger on getting some Reapers.
They're just too big of a target requiring too much support to be efficient.
But I also started Eldar in 4E with a mostly Saim-hann theme. So I've always been more attracted to highly mobile forces with little-to-no backfield units.
The only "back field" units I take from time to time as still quite mobile, like Scatter bikes and War Walkers.
But Rangers, Hemlocks, Spears and Jetbike HQs are almost always the core of my list in 8E. I'm only just now experimenting with a Guardian bomb
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm feeling compelled to make a Wraithost Supreme Command Detachment work. I'm not sure what to add in the rest of the list to support it though:
Spiritseer
Wraithseer
Wraithseer
10x Wraithblades
Wraithknight, Sun Cannon 2x SL
1034pts
I've played around with this before, and the Wraithblades can become ridiculously tough with the 4++ passed from the Spiritseer, on top of the usual Craftworld buffs. 48 T8 Wounds with 3+ 5++ across the 3 big monsters should take a while to chew through too.
What to take with it though?
More Wizards are needed for the buffs, along with at least one Battalion for the CPs. Will I need 2 Battalions worth of CPs though?
I'm in the same boat, definitely going to add dual Wraithseer in my list, but probably not the wraithknight.
As you said, the battalion is important, and would go with 1 blob of 20 Guardians, and then maybe either 2x5 rangers or some Dire Avengers. You'll definitely need some good AT as well.
I'm still considering the Supreme Command being Ynnari, the warlord traits and relics really buff the wraithseers without crippling the rest of the army too much.
I don't think you can have a Ynnari Wraithost Detachment sadly. Also I don't think a 10 man unit of Wraithguard/blades is a good idea without all the Craftworlds defensive buffs (probably isn't a good idea anyway!).
I'm only taking a Supreme Command Detachment so that the Wraithknight can benefit from the Wraith Host rules, so if you don't want the Knight you might be better making a Battalion the Wraith Host formation for the extra CPs.
Since we're on the topic of wraithguard- what, if any, benefit does the Iyaden trait give them? I mean why would I put them in a detachment with the Iyaden trait rather than say Ulthwe which gives them a 6+++?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Since we're on the topic of wraithguard- what, if any, benefit does the Iyaden trait give them? I mean why would I put them in a detachment with the Iyaden trait rather than say Ulthwe which gives them a 6+++?
The Psytronome of Ilyanden, and the Spirit mark stratagem.
I will almost certainly make my Wraith Host Alaitoc because that's always the best choice, but the Psytronome is pretty groovy. I used the above mentioned Wraith Host Supreme Command detachment as Ilyanden recently in a more friendly game. Didn't get to trigger it on the Wraithblades, but I did get 16 attacks out of the Wraithseers and 24 out of the Knight!
Edit: You said WraithGUARD, so you're right, they get pretty much nothing out of Ilyanden.
Yeah, it is unfortunately common for "iconic" units from specific Craftworlds to not really want their CW trait.
Wraithguard don't really benefit from Iyanden at all, save 1 Strat and Relic Windriders do NOT want to charge and the Shuricannon was arguable the better weapon for them (because Battle Focus) prior to Scatter lasers getting a points drop. Most Aspect warriors don't have Shuriken weapons to benefit from Biel-tan. Ulthwe doesn't really do anything (meaningful) for Psykers and Black Guardians
Rangers seem to be the only "iconic" unit that mathc their CW trait, and that mostly because Alaitoc is the best trait
I would say that the best math hammer Windrider is the one armed with twin catapults. Except for maybe T8 opponents the catapults do more work for their points.
It is strange that GW doesn't do something for the iconic units but then again it is GW.
And to be honest I really don't see the special detachment rules for wraith units to be all that wonderful. That's not to say it doesn't have some use. I just don't think that the benefit is as good or better than the cost.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I would say that the best math hammer Windrider is the one armed with twin catapults. Except for maybe T8 opponents the catapults do more work for their points.
It is strange that GW doesn't do something for the iconic units but then again it is GW.
And to be honest I really don't see the special detachment rules for wraith units to be all that wonderful. That's not to say it doesn't have some use. I just don't think that the benefit is as good or better than the cost.
Mathhammer means jack all when the unit carrying it has to make a suicide run to use their armament.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I would say that the best math hammer Windrider is the one armed with twin catapults. Except for maybe T8 opponents the catapults do more work for their points.
It is strange that GW doesn't do something for the iconic units but then again it is GW.
And to be honest I really don't see the special detachment rules for wraith units to be all that wonderful. That's not to say it doesn't have some use. I just don't think that the benefit is as good or better than the cost.
Mathhammer means jack all when the unit carrying it has to make a suicide run to use their armament.
Exactly. The Cannon comes close enough to the math of the catapult against most targets, but has range enough not to die immediately.
Basically, 3 WRs with Cats might do more damage per turn, but they get far less turns. Run the math on 1 turn using Cats vs 2 turns using Cannons.
Scatter lasers being cheaper that Shuricannons and having even more range pushes them out as the better option, which lends well to being Saim-Hann (to my original point). But I still like Shuricannons as they mesh very well with Battle Focus (one of the few unit that gets the most out of this) and doesn't require them to be Saim-Hann to be at peak efficiency, thus allowing them to be Alaitoc for yet more survivability that the desperately need
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I don't think you can have a Ynnari Wraithost Detachment sadly. Also I don't think a 10 man unit of Wraithguard/blades is a good idea without all the Craftworlds defensive buffs (probably isn't a good idea anyway!).
I'm only taking a Supreme Command Detachment so that the Wraithknight can benefit from the Wraith Host rules, so if you don't want the Knight you might be better making a Battalion the Wraith Host formation for the extra CPs.
Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.
Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.
Yeah, the specialist detachments need a stratagem to use and Ynnari are specifically excluded from using any non-Ynnari stratagems to affect Ynnari units.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.
To my mind, an important aspect of Ynnari is that they have no movement abilities. With that in mind, it seems that they really want stuff like Shining Spears, rather than Wraith units.
In case its not obvious -
The idea is to plow the serpent upfield and have the blades in webway strike and maybe the rangers hiding depending on circuimstances.
Turn 2; unload the troops, put blades on the field, drop seer council to ensure quicken goes off and do the relevant psychic shoot the fusion and shuriken and go to town, tag the line in cc drop supreme disdain and drown their lines in blood mauahah...
I played with 5 blades today and got enhance off as well as supreme disdain and it was glorious. Same but with a full strenght unit of 10 and psytronome... yiekes!!!
Although its not perfect i think its pretty decent. The fact thats it doubles up as battalion seems to me much more valid variation than anything else I tried with supreme command/spearheds and knight etc. I thought of another variant but your realy need scaratch knight and it gets to nearly 1200 points for one detatchement and is a bit mad...
I havent played with them but I think they are really cool and underrated. Has to be alitoic for the -2 to hit and with lfr giving them -3 makes for great screen protection for characters buuuut 12" rannge is very poor..
Shadow specters are just much better on paper IMO. Have some ordered so Im looking forward tot hat. If im going to mess with resin models might as well be specters...
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I don't think you can have a Ynnari Wraithost Detachment sadly. Also I don't think a 10 man unit of Wraithguard/blades is a good idea without all the Craftworlds defensive buffs (probably isn't a good idea anyway!).
I'm only taking a Supreme Command Detachment so that the Wraithknight can benefit from the Wraith Host rules, so if you don't want the Knight you might be better making a Battalion the Wraith Host formation for the extra CPs.
Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.
I wasn't thinking of using the wraith host as Ynnari, just the Supreme Command Detachment.
Yvraine, 2 wraithseers and Wraithblades (either 10 of them, or 5 in a serpent).
Yvraine takes the 5+ invuln to throw onto the sword wraiths, and then either word of the phoenix to act as an apothecary or the doom in assault power. the wraith seers get the cool relics and warlord traits.
yep, I could just run them as a spirithost and use the 2CP strat to give the swords a 4+ invuln from the spiritseer. With the psytronome and reroll charge trait, it certainly is tempting.
Wraithblades that always re-roll to wound (duplicate sources of meleedoom) and re-roll 1s to hit don't seem too bad. I like the idea of their transport being Wave Serpents with 5++ -1 to hit when advancing.
What are the best anti-chaff CWE units, bearing in mind orks are T4?
Scatlaser on bikes or war walkers? Guardian blobs? Swooping hawks seem very glassy.
And can I ask, has anyone had any luck with scorpions since their reprice? 64pts with claw exarch is cheap enough not to be missed in opening exchanges, and if deployed against units in cover, with disdain Strat, have a bit of punch to them.
Spiders like a few Eldar units have cool rules but when you play them you can't but wish they would just do more damage. They are to harass objectives and shrug off enemy shooting sitting in cover with their -1 on.
Scorps are also to harass objectives and generate points, if you roll hot they are more dangerous than you might expect but they will be staying at that place you infiltrated them for most of the game probably.
Hawks are the same as those two honestly, just different flavour and you can keep your distance.
Bikes with catapults are pretty hilarious, and actually do like, double damage Spiders do. Dump 9 dudes from Webway and if you survive, you can fall back and shoot without using stratagem and fly away '22. With their T4 they do not eat lasguns and autoguns as easy as Guardians. They do not provide you with CP either however.
I think the problem with harassment units in 40k is you only have so many turns. Either you kill the target so you can take their objective, or you don't (e.g. you only "harass" them).
It still is good to have a cheap unit to drop on some 2 kroot hounds running for objective and trying to do linebreaker and stuff, so you want some in your army.
The Swooping Hawks from my experience are the best unit for that though. They are cheap, not a big threat, most mobile of them all and don't need to be in close combat.
grouchoben wrote: What are the best anti-chaff CWE units, bearing in mind orks are T4?
Scatlaser on bikes or war walkers? Guardian blobs? Swooping hawks seem very glassy.
And can I ask, has anyone had any luck with scorpions since their reprice? 64pts with claw exarch is cheap enough not to be missed in opening exchanges, and if deployed against units in cover, with disdain Strat, have a bit of punch to them.
This was my issue and why I added harlie skyweavers in for both AT and good anti-horde. I also used Shadow Weavers and Dire Avengers. Scatter laser armed warwalkers also look reasonable.
I like swooping hawks and guardians for chaff clearing / harassment myself. Problem is they dont show up until t2. But dropping a squad of 10 hawks and 20 guardians on the opponents front line with a farseer / warlock both on bike to buff them as needed. Seems to work pretty well on guard, but i feel there could be other uses for these guys as well. Any thoughts?
Played some more games with triple hemlocks and scatter serpents and fortune/protect spears. Spears stacked with defense buffs are still amazing. Wiped a unit of genestealers, shrugged off a charge by buffed up aberrants like it was nothing, then proceeded to wipe out a cult tank commander and a few more infantry squads. Scatter serpents are a nightmare for an opponent to deal with since you can kite all day from 36" while laughing as enemy heavy weapons bounce off your serpent shield. And of course, an air wing of hemlocks is just a huge bully both in the shooting phase and psychic phase. The ability to casually project 3 psychic denies deep into enemy deployment cannot be understated.
The fliers seem like such an auto- take don't they.?? They are sooo good.. Kind of annoys me.
I have not got any for my army. I'm stubbornly trying to come up with lists that don't include them. But I would not attempt a tournament without them.
Definitely getting some.
I have a bad feeling they will be nerfed in the next update...Probably right as I finish painting some
For sure. I don't strictly look at it that way. There are other units that excite me more. For example Shadow specters which I just got so I might just jump on those especially with the new paints. Support weapons and night spinners/prisms & bikes interst me a lot. However.... However.... I kind want to get the boring chaff out of the way. I am trying to finish my troops first. Got two squads of Storm guardians, 10 more guardians and 10 dire avengers. right at the top of the pile
The fliers are somewhere towards the back of the que.
Yeah for sure, It seems very effective. However I don't know if I have it in me to paint 20 more guardians on top the 10 I still need to paint for my first 20 man blob lol. Maybe if I made them ulthwe because that would take minutes lol. I've been toying with snipy lists on battle scribe. I Like the idea of 10 squad strong alitoic ranger squad with snipy autarch with reaper launcher and illic.
hmmm I wonder what two battalions of 10 man squads would play like lol....Outputting some mad MW on paper. I will never have that many rangers to try though haha. Wonder if anyone has tried that sort of madness?
I've been tempted to try Illic and a Mark of the Incomparable Hunter Reaper Launcher Autarch, but never gotten round to it. I think it will be very match up dependent. When facing lots of snipers I can sometimes easily hide my characters out of LoS and never worry about it. There is some value in forcing characters to hide, but 2-3 units of 5 Rangers can achieve the same effect.
There are several units available in 40k that can snipe characters. The reaper autarch with the trait is one of the worst by far. Compare it to a GSC sanctus, or an IK shieldbreaker missile, or even a vindicare assassin. It's far more expensive than all of those things, and has no way to get past the invuln which will almost certainly exist on that low wound support character you are targeting in 90% of matchups. Without any way to deal mortal wounds, trigger perils of the warp, or ignore invulns, a reaper autarch is pretty much just an extremely overpriced dark reaper that can't be efficiently buffed and can't reliably deal enough damage to perform its intended role.
A Reaper Autarch isn't a dedicated character sniper really, you just tack the gun and trait onto him to give him an extra role, the gun is only 20-something points and Eldar WL traits mostly suck, and you barely have to commit anything to give him the capability. He can just do what he normally does while plinking away, probably can't kill off much by himself, but when you combine him with damage from Ranger squads etc it can add up to a useful kill sometimes.
Mine has been lucky at killing off IG minor characters, Primaris psykers in particular die pretty easily with no saves, you just gotta hit and wound twice.
slave.entity wrote: There are several units available in 40k that can snipe characters. The reaper autarch with the trait is one of the worst by far. Compare it to a GSC sanctus, or an IK shieldbreaker missile, or even a vindicare assassin. It's far more expensive than all of those things, and has no way to get past the invuln which will almost certainly exist on that low wound support character you are targeting in 90% of matchups. Without any way to deal mortal wounds, trigger perils of the warp, or ignore invulns, a reaper autarch is pretty much just an extremely overpriced dark reaper that can't be efficiently buffed and can't reliably deal enough damage to perform its intended role.
All that being said, three Saim-Han Reaper Autarchs on bikes make for a hilarious Windrider Host specialist detachment.
Reaper/Banshee/Lance Autarch Skyrunners are my favorite Eldar unit. Bike Autarchs in general have always been a favorite of mine, even when Farseers have been a better go-to choice for a minimum HQ.
The Character sniping trait is just icing on the cake. Autarch Skyrunners are one of the few decetn multi-purpose Eldar units. They are cheap enough that you can have them stay in your back field supporting units with their reroll 1s aura and taking pot-shots with the Launcher. Fast enough to keep up with other unit to ensure key units get the buff and be in position to counter-charge to protect those units.
I always have at least 1 such unit in my lists, and often 2-3. They're great fun.
Yeah, I concur on the wraithhost specialist detachment. It is likely craftworlds only - I don’t see it being ruled playable by Ynnari.
Yeah, the specialist detachments need a stratagem to use and Ynnari are specifically excluded from using any non-Ynnari stratagems to affect Ynnari units.
I’ve been thinking a lot about Wraithbois lately too. Specifically axe bois, as they are some of my favorites, but I don’t see how they would be superior in an Ynnari detachment. They really like to have spells like protect, quicken and the like cast on them, and I don’t see how they would be better with Ynnari rules.
To my mind, an important aspect of Ynnari is that they have no movement abilities. With that in mind, it seems that they really want stuff like Shining Spears, rather than Wraith units.
Yeah, the lack of movement abilities really kills it for me. I like the idea of Ynnari, and love the models (especially Yvraine), but I just feel like going to straight Craftworlds or Drukhari is the way to go now. I think Ynnari's new SfD is strictly worse than pretty much all the Craftworlds except Sam Hainn and possibly Iyanden. I am interested in possibly using Yvraine just as a generic psyker to add to my Drukhari list, though. She gives them a free deny, can ride in their transports, and can just be loaded up with offensive spells like Gaze of Ynnead that don't care if the rest of the army is Ynnari. She also gets you out of buying a 2nd Archon if you don't want one. For regular Craftworlds, I just don't really see the point.
It's also true that our Warlord Traits are really lackluster. I think only Tyranids has a more uninspiring collection of traits. The only two that are good (Natural Leader and Fate Reader) are locked to specific Craftworlds. So, have at it if you want to use your WL trait on a Reaper Autarch to make him a sniper - it's not like there are a lot of other great choices.
Here's an odd question for the group: if I am using Shadow Spectres and firing in their Coherent mode, and also have a power like Guide or Natural Leader active that is giving me full re-rolls, do I get to re-roll the bonus shots generated by the Coherent mode's special rule as well?
Just for clarity's sake, here is the text of the rule: "Each hit inflicted with this weapon allows an additional attack to be made with it. As long as each following attack hits, the controlling player may keep making attacks until a total of 3 hits have been inflicted with this weapon."
The Coherent mode is S6, AP -3, D1. The Exarch's Prism Blaster has the same rule and is S6, AP -2 (why...) and deals D3 damage. Seems like they could be pretty mean if you can reliably give them good re-rolls.
I think the Skyrunner with laser lance and Banshee mask is the way to go if you want an Sniper Autarch. It's 99pts for an Autarch on foot with the Reaper Launcher vs 127 for the tooled up skyrunner. The Skyrunner can do so much more for less than 30pts extra.
Yeah, the lack of movement abilities really kills it for me. I like the idea of Ynnari, and love the models (especially Yvraine), but I just feel like going to straight Craftworlds or Drukhari is the way to go now. I think Ynnari's new SfD is strictly worse than pretty much all the Craftworlds except Sam Hainn and possibly Iyanden. I am interested in possibly using Yvraine just as a generic psyker to add to my Drukhari list, though. She gives them a free deny, can ride in their transports, and can just be loaded up with offensive spells like Gaze of Ynnead that don't care if the rest of the army is Ynnari. She also gets you out of buying a 2nd Archon if you don't want one. For regular Craftworlds, I just don't really see the point.
I'm inclined to agree.
From a flavour perspective, I much prefer their powers, traits and artefacts to those of regular Eldar. However, it seems like there are far too many hoops to jump through to even play them, and all you get for it is an unbelievably niche army trait.
I agree that Yvraine is probably a decent addition to DE (not like you're missing out on much with their HQs), but unlike you I really hate her model. Not sure why exactly, there's just something about it that really puts me off.
Galef wrote: Bike Autarchs in general have always been a favorite of mine, even when Farseers have been a better go-to choice for a minimum HQ.-
Out of interest, do you think Ynnari change this at all?
Just curious as to whether the artefacts and traits would actually make an Autarch preferable to a Farseer (assuming you're unable to just take both).
Part of the appeal for the Auratch is the reroll 1s aura, which I'd loose if he became Ynnari. Or to be more accurate, he'd no longer be ALAITOC to give the aura to my CWE units that will STAY Alaitoc and never be Ynnari.
But also to clarify, I always take a Farseer too. But 1 Farseer is all you need. Skyrunner Autarchs are good enough to have multiples. Reaper/Lance Skyrunners have about the same damage output of 2 Spears + 1 Dark Reaper. Imagine 2 Spears pulling a flying chariot with a Reaper on it. That's how an Autarch do. Plus Character protection and buffing nearby units. If Spears and Reapers are good this edition, Autarch are good by default
If I had the points in every list, I'd 1 Farseer + 1 Warlock & 3 Autarch in every list. All Skyrunners. But sadly, points need to be shifted sometimes, so 1-2 Autarchs get kicked out of more competitive lists. Not because they aren't good, but because Farseer + Warlock powers are mandatory in competitive 8E
Galef wrote: Part of the appeal for the Auratch is the reroll 1s aura, which I'd loose if he became Ynnari.
Or to be more accurate, he'd no longer be ALAITOC to give the aura to my CWE units that will STAY Alaitoc and never be Ynnari.
Yeah, I can understand this. I really want to use Ynnari but every time I try to make a list I realise at the end that my HQs are basically the only things in my army that actually benefit from being Ynnari.
If I had the points in every list, I'd 1 Farseer + 1 Warlock & 3 Autarch in every list. All Skyrunners. But sadly, points need to be shifted sometimes, so 1-2 Autarchs get kicked out of more competitive lists. Not because they aren't good, but because Farseer + Warlock powers are mandatory in competitive 8E-
Wraithseer with d-cannon and sniper trait makes for a great way to force enemy characters stay back and you can do decent anti tank work too.
Same with the autarch skyrunner, index him up with a fusion gun and Lance and you can output a lot of firepower, even the twin cats can sting.
As for chaff, I think two cheap squads of troops and a guardian bomb work great with a unit of 9 scat bikes to soften them up in turn one.
Ulthwe guardian bombs are amazing, for two CP and a psychic power you get 40 shots, hitting on twos and a 3+ invulnerable meaning they might actually survive the retaliation!
Ulthwe guardian bombs are amazing, for two CP and a psychic power you get 40 shots, hitting on twos and a 3+ invulnerable meaning they might actually survive the retaliation!
I kind of prefer the Biel Tan guardian bomb because it is entirely self-sufficient, requiring nothing more than the 1 CP for webway delivery. I always feel like I don’t have any CPs to spare when I’m playing CWE - probably because I never want to take more of our troops than are absolutely required. But, I am kind of prejudiced because I’ve been playing my army as Biel Tan since like.... 1994?
As stated I like snipy autarch because of the duality it offers especialy if combined with a couple ranger squads. You cna always just shoot at big stuff to try and deal the 3dmg.
I wouldn't think so. The Phoenix Lords are immortal incarnations per the current fluff. The easy change is just to say they are the same daemon being summoned time and time again.
The aspect warriors are just normal eldar who follow a specific path of war. So, really there's nothing special about them.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Hey, guys, I've got something of an unusual question - are there any Eldar units that could be refluffed as Daemons of some sort or other?
(Aside from the Avater, who is one already.)
Hey dude
You could potentially use the story of Maugan Ra and craftworld of Altsanar as the base for your fluff:
"Ten thousand years after the Eye of Terror
swallowed Maugan Ra’s homeworld, that
nightmarish realm vomited the legions of
Chaos into the material universe, leaving a
gaping lesion in space where realspace and
the warp could coexist.Whilst the rift was
still open and the armies of that hell-plane
were spewing forth, Maugan Ra took his
chance. He plunged into the unreality
of the warp and searched its malignant
reaches for what was left of his lost people.
Over the course of many adventures, as
told in the macabre Bás-Finscéali lays,
Maugan Ra eventually found the remains
of his craftworld.
TheAeldari of Altansar lived on still, after
a fashion. Maugan Ra guided what was left
of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror
and led them against the forces of Chaos
to deny them their victory. However, at
the war councils that followed Altansar’s
return, there was no welcome from the
other craftworlds’ Autarchs for their longlost
kin. Though the Phoenix Lord’s people
certainly fought hard, they were secretive
and unsettling, and spoke only in whispers.
Of the Asuryani of Altansar, the same
question continues to be asked, though
never in Maugan Ra’s presence – how could
any living Aeldari remain untouched by
the predations of the Eye of Terror for so
many millennia?"
P.50 Eldar Codex 8th Edition.
In theory you could spin all sorts of demonic shenanigans into eldar fluff by using this plot device. Id recommend reading up on Altsanar and Maugan Ra in the codex fluff. Its pretty dope.
Can I ask exactly what it is that you are looking to do out of curiosity? Just fluff musings, Wriitng fan fiction? Painting& Modelling?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I wouldn't think so. The Phoenix Lords are immortal incarnations per the current fluff. The easy change is just to say they are the same daemon being summoned time and time again.
The aspect warriors are just normal eldar who follow a specific path of war. So, really there's nothing special about them.
Hmm, that's a shame. I was hoping to find more than special characters but maybe it was a fool's errand to begin with. Thanks anyway.
You could potentially use the story of Maugan Ra and craftworld of Altsanar as the base for your fluff:
"Ten thousand years after the Eye of Terror
swallowed Maugan Ra’s homeworld, that
nightmarish realm vomited the legions of
Chaos into the material universe, leaving a
gaping lesion in space where realspace and
the warp could coexist.Whilst the rift was
still open and the armies of that hell-plane
were spewing forth, Maugan Ra took his
chance. He plunged into the unreality
of the warp and searched its malignant
reaches for what was left of his lost people.
Over the course of many adventures, as
told in the macabre Bás-Finscéali lays,
Maugan Ra eventually found the remains
of his craftworld.
TheAeldari of Altansar lived on still, after
a fashion. Maugan Ra guided what was left
of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror
and led them against the forces of Chaos
to deny them their victory. However, at
the war councils that followed Altansar’s
return, there was no welcome from the
other craftworlds’ Autarchs for their longlost
kin. Though the Phoenix Lord’s people
certainly fought hard, they were secretive
and unsettling, and spoke only in whispers.
Of the Asuryani of Altansar, the same
question continues to be asked, though
never in Maugan Ra’s presence – how could
any living Aeldari remain untouched by
the predations of the Eye of Terror for so
many millennia?"
P.50 Eldar Codex 8th Edition.
In theory you could spin all sorts of demonic shenanigans into eldar fluff by using this plot device. Id recommend reading up on Altsanar and Maugan Ra in the codex fluff. Its pretty dope.
That's pretty cool but regrettably not what I'm looking for. Nevertheless, I'm grateful you shared it, it was an interesting read if nothing else.
Can I ask exactly what it is that you are looking to do out of curiosity? Just fluff musings, Wriitng fan fiction? Painting& Modelling?
Sure. What I was hoping to do is use rules for some Eldar models, but modelling them as daemons of some sort or other.
The reason is actually based on a Dark Eldar Kabal - specifically the Kabal of the Wraithkind. It's one that caught my interest a while back. There's not much information on it, but one thing that is mentioned is that the Archon was known for courting daemons. This intrigued me and I was wondering if I could build an army around it.
The thing is, I can't use actual Chaos Daemons (not in a Matched Play army, anyway), and Dark Eldar only have 2 daemon-ish units - Mandrakes and Khymerae. And given that neither of those have any wargear options or weapon choices, they're pretty one-note, to say the least.
Hence, I was wondering if any Craftworld Eldar units were at all similar to daemons (so that I could use the rules for those, but model them as daemons of some sort).
Tbh, it was probably a silly idea from the start but there you have it.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I wouldn't think so. The Phoenix Lords are immortal incarnations per the current fluff. The easy change is just to say they are the same daemon being summoned time and time again.
The aspect warriors are just normal eldar who follow a specific path of war. So, really there's nothing special about them.
Hmm, that's a shame. I was hoping to find more than special characters but maybe it was a fool's errand to begin with. Thanks anyway.
You could potentially use the story of Maugan Ra and craftworld of Altsanar as the base for your fluff:
"Ten thousand years after the Eye of Terror
swallowed Maugan Ra’s homeworld, that
nightmarish realm vomited the legions of
Chaos into the material universe, leaving a
gaping lesion in space where realspace and
the warp could coexist.Whilst the rift was
still open and the armies of that hell-plane
were spewing forth, Maugan Ra took his
chance. He plunged into the unreality
of the warp and searched its malignant
reaches for what was left of his lost people.
Over the course of many adventures, as
told in the macabre Bás-Finscéali lays,
Maugan Ra eventually found the remains
of his craftworld.
TheAeldari of Altansar lived on still, after
a fashion. Maugan Ra guided what was left
of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror
and led them against the forces of Chaos
to deny them their victory. However, at
the war councils that followed Altansar’s
return, there was no welcome from the
other craftworlds’ Autarchs for their longlost
kin. Though the Phoenix Lord’s people
certainly fought hard, they were secretive
and unsettling, and spoke only in whispers.
Of the Asuryani of Altansar, the same
question continues to be asked, though
never in Maugan Ra’s presence – how could
any living Aeldari remain untouched by
the predations of the Eye of Terror for so
many millennia?"
P.50 Eldar Codex 8th Edition.
In theory you could spin all sorts of demonic shenanigans into eldar fluff by using this plot device. Id recommend reading up on Altsanar and Maugan Ra in the codex fluff. Its pretty dope.
That's pretty cool but regrettably not what I'm looking for. Nevertheless, I'm grateful you shared it, it was an interesting read if nothing else.
Can I ask exactly what it is that you are looking to do out of curiosity? Just fluff musings, Wriitng fan fiction? Painting& Modelling?
[/spoiler]
Sure. What I was hoping to do is use rules for some Eldar models, but modelling them as daemons of some sort or other.
The reason is actually based on a Dark Eldar Kabal - specifically the Kabal of the Wraithkind. It's one that caught my interest a while back. There's not much information on it, but one thing that is mentioned is that the Archon was known for courting daemons. This intrigued me and I was wondering if I could build an army around it.
The thing is, I can't use actual Chaos Daemons (not in a Matched Play army, anyway), and Dark Eldar only have 2 daemon-ish units - Mandrakes and Khymerae. And given that neither of those have any wargear options or weapon choices, they're pretty one-note, to say the least.
Hence, I was wondering if any Craftworld Eldar units were at all similar to daemons (so that I could use the rules for those, but model them as daemons of some sort).
Tbh, it was probably a silly idea from the start but there you have it.
Just do it! It sounds like an amazing idea. And you could use "counts as" in several cases and create a beautiful army (thinking of Blootletters as incubbi, the new harpies from warcry as hellions etc)
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I wouldn't think so. The Phoenix Lords are immortal incarnations per the current fluff. The easy change is just to say they are the same daemon being summoned time and time again.
The aspect warriors are just normal eldar who follow a specific path of war. So, really there's nothing special about them.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I wouldn't think so. The Phoenix Lords are immortal incarnations per the current fluff. The easy change is just to say they are the same daemon being summoned time and time again.
The aspect warriors are just normal eldar who follow a specific path of war. So, really there's nothing special about them.
Phoenix Lords are most definitely not immortal.
Their bodies may not be immortal, but so long as there is a compatible Aeldari body to occupy the suit, they are immortal in a sense. Unlike Exarchs that merge the soul of the current body with the souls of the previous wearers and incorporate their memories, etc, Phoenix Lords keep all the memories of the original Aeldari and do not merge them with the new body's memories.
Side question: Does anyone have any ideas if any of the PLs are still the original and how many "deaths" each one may have suffered. I can only think of Karandras dying in Path of the Warrior and the main character of that book becoming Karandras
Just do it! It sounds like an amazing idea. And you could use "counts as" in several cases and create a beautiful army (thinking of Blootletters as incubbi, the new harpies from warcry as hellions etc)
That's more or less what I'm thinking. However, I'd prefer it if the "daemons" were units that didn't need transports. Hellions work fine but Incubi are a bit dicey. Maybe Striking Scorpions?
So veering back to tactics, I'm looking for a bit of input on a few lists I posted on the army lists thread for a 1000pt league at my local GW so I'm looking for some advice to build a good list (as in I want to win). Rules are single detachment, rulebook missions only, no soup and only one list for the entire league.
I've been tinkering this evening and trying to decide what would be a decent take all comers Craftworlds list but I'm requiring some input. At this points level, Alaitoc is obviously good but Biel-Tan seems to be a good Craftworld to take stock cheap bodies with shuriken weaponry and abuse the rerolls that the host trait gives.
Here is the first list I've come up with:
Biel-Tan Swordwind Battalion
HQ Farseer (powers TBC)
Spiritseer (warlord, spirit stone of anath'lan, Biel-Tan natural leader, protect/jinx)
Troops
2x 5 Dire Avengers (Exarchs are stock)
10 Guardians w/ scatter laser platform
Dedicated Transport
3x Wave Serpents w/ underslung cannons
Heavy Support
3x War Walkers
The list is pretty all rounder but will suffer against a tank company for instance as I have no weapons above Str6. I can dish out some mortal wounds at least. The Guardians can do a webway bomb and the War Walkers can deepstrike. Let me know what you think of this one.
The second list uses Alaitoc as the army trait but could use Biel-Tan:
Troops
2x 5 Dire Avengers (Exarchs are stock)
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
Heavy Support
2x Fire Prisms
Flyer
Crimson Hunter Exarch w/ 2 BL
This list has more anti-tank and the prisms can be good anti-horde/MEQ, the guardians can webway bomb, the remaining forces can benefit from the -1 to hit and overall get some good target saturation with 2 prisms threatening linked fire and a flyer helping to screen in some situations.
1st list: Why scat laser on the guardian platform? For biel-tan sepcificaly you'd want a shuricannon for re-roll ones. If youre taking it just as a wound tanker, I sort of get it, but might as well pay the points for cannon to get some use out of it.
Going biel-tan for the spirit stone is cool but I think taking a warlock and accepting you will drop couple CP for seer council to make sure clutch powers go off and going full alitoic is the better play.
2nd list: I'd drop the dire avengers and go for double rangers plus 20 guardian blob.
I think id change up the two prisms for night spinners and with some play about in points you could maybe fit 3 spinners in that list instead of 2 prisms. That's a lot of DMG2 dakka coming their way..
However its hard to say without the actual lists.. what gear are you running on the serpents? Does the 20 guardian blob have 2 platforms? At a 1000 pts the devil is in the details. Also no idea what models you have acess tto..
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm almost positive that I've read that all of the PLs have died at one point or another. It was probably in the fluff of one of the early codices.
If i'm not mistaken there is at least 2x PL that avoided death so far.
Maybe 3 Maugan, Fuegan and Baharroth are the original ones.
I'm not sure what I would cut for 250 but the list seems pretty solid to me. The auturch goes with the wraithlords as a HtH unit. The spirit seer stays with the wraithguard.
BTW why do you have a spirit seer in your first list when you could save 10 points by using a regular warlock?
Kind of- by that I mean that I really don't think that the fusion adds just of anything to a list full of S10 weapons and I like the flamers to deter chaff from trying to tie up my melee oriented wraithlords.
Cheers Argive, here are some responses to your comments.
Argive wrote: 1st list: Why scat laser on the guardian platform? For biel-tan sepcificaly you'd want a shuricannon for re-roll ones. If youre taking it just as a wound tanker, I sort of get it, but might as well pay the points for cannon to get some use out of it.
The list rounds out at 998 or 999, something along those lines and I couldn't squeeze in a cannon if I wanted too and I had spare point left over so I figured I may as well jam in a weapons platform of some sort
Going biel-tan for the spirit stone is cool but I think taking a warlock and accepting you will drop couple CP for seer council to make sure clutch powers go off and going full alitoic is the better play.
I get why warlocks are popular, but for 20pts (why do people say 10? Is my battlescribe outdated?) more I get double the wounds, access to full smite and with the spirit stone and natural leader I get some nice rerolls for psychic tests and the pseudo guide.
2nd list: I'd drop the dire avengers and go for double rangers plus 20 guardian blob.
I think id change up the two prisms for night spinners and with some play about in points you could maybe fit 3 spinners in that list instead of 2 prisms. That's a lot of DMG2 dakka coming their way..
However its hard to say without the actual lists.. what gear are you running on the serpents? Does the 20 guardian blob have 2 platforms? At a 1000 pts the devil is in the details. Also no idea what models you have acess tto..
So just to be clear, the lists are as they are, most of these squads are barebones unless otherwise stated.
I prefer avengers personally as they're cheaper for jamming in more tanks which I figure people will have a tough time dealing with 1000 points. I only have one squad of rangers anyway so going for two squads unfortunately I can't do. The Guardians don't have any support platforms due to cost.
Remember Rule of Two is in effect below 1000pts, so three night spinners is a no go along with the fact I don't have night spinners. The fire prisms I chose because of linked fire and the ability to shimmy them about and still be able to hide.
In terms of what I have access to I have a fair amount of stuff in various states of assembly and the month can give me time to get these painted up. I guess the major stuff I have are Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Hawks, Warp Spiders, Banshees, (more) Avengers, Wraithguard/blades, windriders (Bike Autarch/seer too) and a wraithlord. I have some other things like a falcon or more war walkers but I don't know if I'd run them.
