lambsandlions wrote:So I am looking at shining spears and I really like the idea of a first turn assault with their 16" move and quicken. But how big of a unit of shining spears should someone take and what are their preferred targets?
Spear can target anything really well. They pair as onpar to better against all enemy units when compared to really anything in the book (may or may not require actualy making melee to do really well). So basically throw them at anything you want dead, and you'll be excited.
Unit size is based on your army. If you wanna go big i'd say take 9, and try to hit two units. Though i'd only go 9 if you plan to also support them with warlock and maybe farseer support. Enhance +1 to hit and supreme disdain is great for killing GEQ/MEQ/TEQ level models. For tanks/monster Empower for +1 to wound works really well as it end up being something like a 50% increase in damage. If you want to throw the squad at a knight Empower/Enhance/supreme disdain (and maaaaaaybe doom) will see the knight dead in one round of combat on average with out even shooting the lances at the guy (you can guarantee the knight dies by throwing the lances at the thing and casting doom he'll die about every time, and autarch sitting around bufffing will also help push those odds). They can do the same against everything in the game to be honest. MAgnus/morty/Girlyman all are shaking in thier boots at the site of a buffed up squad, and with quicken you can gamble on buffing the squad outside of deny range, and then shoot the squad into the thick of things with quicken. Definitely think these are kind of a death starish unit.
Low support or no warlock support i'd just take min squads. They are still good, but the buffs are as amazing unless you get that dramatic force multiplication on tons of models.
Do note if you're worried about them taking heat turn 1 you always have the option to webway them in and quicken them with they drop. Quicken will still let them make charges normal units in that situation couldn't (over the heads of screens and scout screens).
Fafnir wrote:Honestly, with their ability to deepstrike, high mobility, solid saves, ability to use the Fly rule, and static -1 to be hit by shooting, I feel they do a better job at dropping in and tying up enemy units in CC than Scorpions do.
You know i don't disagree with you at all here. They are tough enough to deep strike attempt a long bomb charge, and failing that milk flicker jump and potential cover to tank through the enemy turn and go for the charge after they get thier move in.
I'm in agreement here about Shining Spears. If you have the Warlock support and Farseer support, then 1 big unit is definitely the way to go. Guide, Doom, Empower, Conceal, Protect and Quicken make for an extremely deadly unit. Things like the Biel-Tan stratagem or the Saim-Hann stratagem also serve as back-ups if Quicken fails. However, if you're not going heavy psyker, then smaller units seem better but you have to be more careful with choosing your target.
Spiders - i'm not convinced on yet. I keep coming back to Hawks instead. I kinda see them as a small, deep striking, screening unit there to grab objectives and be annoying. If i want the damage while keeping the in-built -1 to hit, i kinda prefer Shadow Spectres, especially as they can have a longer range and have a higher base move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FarseerReborn wrote: Tabled 2000 points of Black templars primaris by turn 4 with this list:
Nice! What went well and what didn't? Also what kind of units were you up against? Did you find it easy to control the objective game whilst still putting out the damage?
He was saying that it was so statistically unlikely that it was basically meaningless. And he's correct.
22% chance to cast all those powers assuming none are denied. Let alone 4 guys within range and spending command points.
It's not meaningless in the slightest. It's the maths on what you can do with some of the Eldar buffs. The maths changes depending on what buffs you get off, but it seems useful to know as it's a big part of what Eldar do now.
So then there's your maths, which I am sure is wrong without checking because you don't have sufficient information. It was just an anecdote to show the potential of Banshees but I'll flesh it out for you and people can do the proper maths if they like:
-IIRC in that psychic phase I cast 6 powers and failed 2. I did not get jinx off on the Trygon or guide on a unit of fire dragons elsewhere.
-One of the powers was cast by my Spiritseer Warlord with the reroll tests trait.
-One was cast by another Spiritseer with the Biel-tan reroll tests relic.
-Another was done by the Farseer who gets awesome rerolls as standard.
-I don't remember if I used a CP reroll but that is also an option.
So 4 out of 6 powers could be rerolled and I failed 2. I can't be bothered to work it out but that doesn't seem especially lucky to me.
EDIT: I did a rough version of the maths and found that I should have cast 4.5 powers successfully. So, once again my anecdote appears to match up perfectly with the averages, but has been disregarded as so unlikely it is meaningless by posters who don't put enough thought into what they write. Sorry if that's snarky.
On your other points:
Command points are easy to spend, you just do it.
Getting the psykers in range is no problem at all, 18" range + 7 + D6" moves plus the fact that they are all part of the same army and deployed together to support one another, you'd have to be pretty bad at the game not to set that up. The speed and range of the psykers also allows you to avoid deny the witch quite easily. Plus the enemies only psyker (swarmlord) had already been vaporized by linked Fire Prisms.
Why disregard things as meaningless when you don't even know the details of what you're commenting on? Ask for more information or just ignore it lol.
Care to talk about your list a little bit? What were the MVPs andwhat under preformed?
Sure.
First, the enemy forces (maybe I miss something): Stormraven transporting 10 assault marines + chaplain and an armored (T8) dreadnought. His warlord was a captain biker. 3x primaris intercessor squads, 3x razorback/ autocannon full of 10man marines squad, 1 full lascannon predator. 2x deepstriking primaris reavers units.
He had turn 1
Eldar MVPs:
- linked fire is brutal
- guided Dark Reapers + doom + Forewarned destroy everything
- Rangers absorbed 3 turns of autocannon fire from everything he had
- Webway assault 20 man guardians + 2 shuricannon plats killed his warlord
- 2x CH exarchs killed turn 1 the doomed stormraven
- 107 shuriken weapon shots most rerolling 1's (autarch or biel tan trait) can cripple anything
Mission was controlling objectives and destrying heavy support (eternal war mission n.4 i think)
I just unleashed fire upon the enemy ignoring objectives, he was going to give up by turn 2 but we continued till turn 4 to see what would have happened.
Conclusions.
Based on this game, I think the Eldar - SM matchup is strongly in favor of Eldar, unless fighting against a Gulliman parking-lot (and even then probably it would be a closeup)
I have yet to try this list against AM power lists (imperial soup) and Horde lists.
Sure a heavy CC - alpha strike force should be a more tough situation for a shooty Eldar list like this, if I don't get turn 1
It most certainley is. However playing against someone for the second time with them I found that they went out of their way to kill one of the Prisms asap to more than half the pairs firepower. This makes me want to take 3. For redundancy as well as being able to put a really big hole in lord of war type stuff.
xmbk wrote: I think the problem with Spears is that they are one-hit wonders. Reapers are more likely to be around for a second turn of shooting.
Don't get me wrong, they wreck. But they are juicy targets, especially once they get into melee range.
But I think this is what makes running them MSU style so appealing. Unless your opponent has lots of units with FLY (so other Eldar) or is Ultramarines, you can use 2-3 minimum Spear units to engage most of the opponents units and prevent them from shooting or assaulting in the next turn. That can be incredibly useful. If the opponent is Assault based, the Spear can be used as road-blocks and still put out a good deal of damage in the shooting phase.
Reapers may be a no-brainer choice, but Spears are the thinking player's friend.
The big advantages Reapers have over Spears are that they can be protected if you don't get first turn, they get their full output on turn 1, and then they're protected from at least small arms fire by virtue of being far away from the enemy.
A big problem for MSU Spears is that they're unlikely to be able to do everything you want them to do on turn 1, unless you're going second and your opponent moved in close to them. They'd really like to be within 22" at the start of your turn so that they can shoot with their lances and charge. Out to 28" they can advance and shoot with their lances, and at 34" they'll only be able to fire their catapults. You'll often have to decide whether you want to spend their first turn just positioning or whether you want to leave them outside of CC and very close to the enemy.
Meanwhile MSU Reapers are going to be able to fire 2 reaper launchers and a tempest launcher at whatever you want on their first turn.
That said, a 3-man Spears unit which shoots its lances but doesn't charge actually does about the same damage per point to GEQs, MEQs, and MEQs in cover as a 3-man Reaper squad with tempest launcher, and significantly more to a Razorback. But they're having to shoot something in the front whereas the Reapers can pick targets, including splitting fire so that the reaper launchers can hit a vehicle while the Exarch shoots infantry.
The big advantages the Spears have are that they're more durable in the face of anything that can actually fire at the Reapers at full effect (excepting only AP-1 multi-damage), and once they actually do hit CC they're 2-3 times as good against everything compared as the Reapers.
Shining spears main problem is that they can't hide in a Wave serpent or guarantee to get close enough to the enemy coming out of the Webway. I wouldn't rely on them as my main anti-anything. Cover all your bases with your other choices and use the spears to kill anything they can get hold of. Which they probably will.
Can't agree that Spears are more durable, but it does depend on army comp. I think Hemlocks do most of what you want Spears to do, only better.
A 10-strong Reaper unit with Farseer babysitter changes the deep striking strategy of most opponents. It also will likely have a 2+ and -2 to hit, maybe 5+++. You can babysit a 10-strong Spears, but they will be a 1-turn Fire and Forget, using offensive buffs. That does free up your psykers to support other units, but I really like the Reaper firebase for tactical reasons.
Hemlocks are superior screens in every way that I can think of, and they will either absorb more firepower or dish more damage over the course of a game.
They can really catch an unaware model and punish the player for their blunder. They haven't always been the studs and MVPs for me, but they always seem to affect the game when they come in by either drowning some sucker in saves, or just being obnoxiously in the way.
How was the Exarch upgrade on the Crimson Hunters now that it is only 15 points instead of whatever it was in the index. I imagine it was worth it because you get to leverage all of the perks going up against a flier.
Spears do far more damage than Hemlocks if they get to do everything. MSU Spears are 2-4x as efficient as undenied Smiting Hemlocks (at 200 points) vs GEQs, MEQs, MEQs in cover, and Razorbacks. They're even more efficient against everything if they don't get to charge but do still shoot their lances, and are better against GEQs and competitive against MEQs with just their catapults.
But yeah, Spears are generally less durable against many short-ranged weapons. MSU Spears take about twice as much damage from bolters or assault cannons. On the other hand, they're slightly more durable vs overcharged plasma and a lot more durable vs d6 damage weapons.
I feel like both are excellent units and I'd really want to include at least one unit of Spears and 1 Hemlock in every list. Like I said earlier, the big issue with MSU Spears is just that they're not reliable turn 1 damage. However, I've found that Alatoic lists can generally afford to take a turn or even two of shooting. You can move most of your stuff up behind a Ranger screen to be in position for a turn 2 offensive. Nothing is very threatening to your Rangers aside from deep-strikers or very fast CC, and if you have Spears behind the Rangers you're going to come out ahead on that trade every time.
But a single 9-man Spears unit stands on its own as one of the strongest choices in the codex. It doesn't take much babysitting to make it incredibly threatening -- after Protect and a single cast of Quicken, everything else is gravy. I'd probably throw in Fortune in case of mortal wounds but not bother with offensive buffs. It's not "fire and forget". It's incredibly hard to kill and it can't be tied up. If Ynnari there's really nothing else in the codex that can realistically compete with its damage output.
I wouldn't really compare Spears to Hemlocks, they're very different units. Hemlocks put out good damage consistently whereas Spears can be used as a hammer to deal huge damage in one go. Hemlocks durability means they don't have the Spears main drawback.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Anyone using the Scorpion? Thoughts? How are you building lists with it?
IMHO It's the best and most efficient SuperHeavy the Eldar have. Ironically, the Vampire Hunter, and the Revenant and Phantom titans have the exact same Pulsar guns as the Scorpion (same number of shots with the Scorpion Twin-Linked Pulsars), just more HP (and the ability to split fire).
Even post Forgeworld FAQ (damage is less random so less possibility of crazy damage spikes) It will pretty much wipe out any unit in the game bar a Titan. Even Superheavies with huge invuls will struggle to survive a volley from their gun. Before the FAQ Yvraine could make it shoot twice, which makes Dark Reapers double-tapping look tame in comparison.
Like any Eldar model, it's a lot more delicate than other factions... but deadly. It'll be a firemagnet for sure.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Anyone using the Scorpion? Thoughts? How are you building lists with it?
IMHO It's the best and most efficient SuperHeavy the Eldar have. Ironically, the Vampire Hunter, and the Revenant and Phantom titans have the exact same Pulsar guns as the Scorpion (same number of shots with the Scorpion Twin-Linked Pulsars), just more HP (and the ability to split fire).
Even post Forgeworld FAQ (damage is less random so less possibility of crazy damage spikes) It will pretty much wipe out any unit in the game bar a Titan. Even Superheavies with huge invuls will struggle to survive a volley from their gun. Before the FAQ Yvraine could make it shoot twice, which makes Dark Reapers double-tapping look tame in comparison.
Like any Eldar model, it's a lot more delicate than other factions... but deadly. It'll be a firemagnet for sure.
Good to know! I am debating on getting a Vampire Hunter just for giggles!
As for the Scorpion, I love the model, so I am considering one. Anyone have lists with them in it? I heard Cloudstriking them is an option, but this disables Webway as an option (which all my lists use). Would be curious to see how folks handle this limitation.
The shining spears are tough enough that they really don't need to hide in a wave serpent, and are more likely to stick around tgan maybe even a repeat squad in a wave serpent if your opponent is he'll vent on killing your unit. Against a good tournament level list your opponent shoukd be capable of opening a wave serpent turn 1. Even more so bringing the wave serpent just about doubles the price of the reaper with out doubling the damage output so the if you take that combos damage out put it becomes laughable.
Thier are no ranged weapons that really take out shining spears well and if your nervous lightning reflexes exist.
In the first game I finally got to get with my craftworld I brought two full squads of spears with 3 warlocks, a hemlocj, and a far seer in the back for support. (I had more stuff and they did well too, but that's beside the point). Faced off against guard with lots of drop plasma and went second. Before my turn started I had spent 5cp but it was the best spent cp ever.
1 shining spear squad was in the webway, one squad wad on the table. I forewarned a squad of scar bikes and turned a unit of plasma axioms to dust getting first blood on the enemies turn,. Then he aimed a plasma squad at my spears and I used lightning fast reactions to force him to shoot other units he wasn't in rapid fire range of or have greatly reduced effect agains the spears. I lost 1 shining spear and a few scat bikes to hisbplasma alpha strike. I took my turn and crippled him barely so we called it in retrospect after he and I talked out the game; he felt he should have let me go first , but he was worried with all my fast moving stuff that unwound have made impossible for him to drop his plans anywhere.
As a side note he said he felt abit powerless against the forewarned scatter pac as there really wasn't anywhere he could drop and do any damagebwith out risk of lose a squad. So auto first blood against many deep strikers is pretty nice.
I think as stated reapers have an edge in that they have ling range this makes them ideal to be forewarned, and protects them from small arms fire, most of which is only really dangerous close up. The reapers also can take advantage of the fabled aliatoc really well because of this providing some.much needed durability.
Both units I think are great and have thier places.
Regardless I'm have fun with my saim-hann airdar list.
Thier are no ranged weapons that really take out shining spears well and if your nervous lightning reflexes exist.
Eh. Spears are not that hard to kill. Alaitoc ones with lightning reflexes might be ok. I would usually try and hide them out of LOS but artillery is pretty good against them. In my last game against Nids they hid for the first turn but then got decimated on turn 2 by a pair of Exocrenes and two units of Hive Guard, all of which are perfect for killing Spears.
Thier are no ranged weapons that really take out shining spears well and if your nervous lightning reflexes exist.
Eh. Spears are not that hard to kill. Alaitoc ones with lightning reflexes might be ok. I would usually try and hide them out of LOS but artillery is pretty good against them. In my last game against Nids they hid for the first turn but then got decimated on turn 2 by a pair of Exocrenes and two units of Hive Guard, all of which are perfect for killing Spears.
Probably not wise to put your best unit in range of his best units which are perfectly designed to destroy you. Premessure is allowed - exocrines are priority number one against nids and they are 5+ to hit if they move. With quicken if you deploy just out of their range - you are almost always going to be able to charge them on your first turn. You could easily kill them in the shooting phase and assault something else though.
Certainly if you're deploying Spears on the table they should probably be Alatoic, like just about every other Eldar unit.
They're actually really durable vs Exocrenes even without lightning reflexes. I don't know what's going to happen to them in the new codex, but as-is a 228 point Exocrene shooting at regular Alatoic Spears expects to kill only 41 points' worth, or only 31 points' worth of MSU Spears if the Exarch's extra wound is in play. This is only about as well as they do against an Alatoic Hemlock, and I think you'd generally be pretty happy to have an Exocrene shooting your Hemlock and hitting on 6s. 3-man Alatoic Spears are more durable than tactical Marines in cover vs an Exocrene, and that's pretty durable. It's also worth keeping in mind that when we do comparisons like this to things like "tactical Marines", we're talking about 13 point models, but nobody actually takes Marines in squads with an average cost of 13 ppw. The Exocrene expects to kill 48 points' worth of a 5-man 90 point lascannon squad in cover.
Impaler cannon Hive Guard with their BS3+ are more dangerous, but they're still only looking at killing ~18% of their points in MSU Spears. This is not a great return.
Alatoic Spears are actually really durable against most stuff that isn't within 12" or just designed to kill them (like autocannons). Happily, most artillery is BS4+ so you're not too worried about it while you hide from everything else.
Edit: And, yeah, meanwhile the Exocrenes and Hive Guard are incredibly vulnerable to all kinds of Eldar toys, including the Spears themselves.
Thier are no ranged weapons that really take out shining spears well and if your nervous lightning reflexes exist.
Eh. Spears are not that hard to kill. Alaitoc ones with lightning reflexes might be ok. I would usually try and hide them out of LOS but artillery is pretty good against them. In my last game against Nids they hid for the first turn but then got decimated on turn 2 by a pair of Exocrenes and two units of Hive Guard, all of which are perfect for killing Spears.
Probably not wise to put your best unit in range of his best units which are perfectly designed to destroy you. Premessure is allowed - exocrines are priority number one against nids and they are 5+ to hit if they move. With quicken if you deploy just out of their range - you are almost always going to be able to charge them on your first turn. You could easily kill them in the shooting phase and assault something else though.
Haha. Ok theory hammer for the win. Without giving a blow by blow account trust me when I say there was nowhere to hide them which wouldn't have left them out of the fight for another turn. My only option was to present a lot of threats and accept that something was going to die. My opponent chose well, but not without consequence.
They were not Alaitoc and Exocrenes and Hive Guard work fine against them. No they don't earn their points back against them in a single turn but that's not what long range fire support units do. I don't know exactly what the above maths was based on but exocrenes have 12 shots hitting on 3s doing 2 damage, so that's 2 and a half dead bikes. The long and the short of it is that unless you're stacking negetive hit modifiers or playing against a poor list then Shining Spears can be blown away before they get to do anything. Which is fine because they are super killy when they get there.
Edit: as for the nids being super vulnerable, don't forget to include the -1 to hit them and make sure you run the maths on the effect a podded swarmlord + trygon + 20 stealers has on the eldars ability to shoot exocrenes.
Iirc monsters without fly can’t go up levels, so put all your vehicles on roofs and laugh as the swarmlord and trygon prime can’t reach you. Most if not all eldar vehicles fly anyways.
Is there any merit to using Webway Strike on Shining Spears? 3CP to deep strike Spears and Skyrunner Warlock to Quicken them into Laser Lance range & easy charge distance of a choice target? I’m thinking drop in a minimum sized kamikaze squad that either occupies my opponent for a turn whilst the rest of my force advances or it causes mayhem behind enemy lines if they are ignored. They could also get into combat for protection from retaliatory shooting then fall back but open up shooting again because they have Fly.
Thinking that against my usual opponents (Guard) they could charge a Tank and cost them a rounds shooting to fall back.
They were not Alaitoc and Exocrenes and Hive Guard work fine against them. No they don't earn their points back against them in a single turn but that's not what long range fire support units do. I don't know exactly what the above maths was based on but exocrenes have 12 shots hitting on 3s doing 2 damage, so that's 2 and a half dead bikes. The long and the short of it is that unless you're stacking negetive hit modifiers or playing against a poor list then Shining Spears can be blown away before they get to do anything. Which is fine because they are super killy when they get there.
Edit: as for the nids being super vulnerable, don't forget to include the -1 to hit them and make sure you run the maths on the effect a podded swarmlord + trygon + 20 stealers has on the eldars ability to shoot exocrenes.
Oh, I forgot that Exocrines get +1 to hit too. But, yeah, if they're not Alatoic then you're taking significantly more damage. This is why Spears (and everything else) deployed on the table should basically always be Alatoic; just about every list instantly gets better with that one choice. But regardless it's only 1 and a half dead bikes because if you're getting hit with 2-damage shots you're going to start by taking saves on the Exarch. With Alatoic you expect to fail 2 saves vs an Exocrene, which is just a dead Exarch. Spears are far more durable vs Exocrines than a Hemlock or really any Eldar vehicle other than a cheap Serpent or Wraithlord. MSU Spears are more durable vs Exocrines than Swooping Hawks in cover, flickerjumping Warp Spiders, Scorpions in cover, and Wraithguard in cover. You pretty much have to get down to Guardians and Dire Avengers to find something more durable per point. They're just not getting "blown away" without a significant investment from your opponent.
A big thing I think people are not considering among list building or tactics is what game format are they playing? Standard book missions, ITC or Nova Primers? Scenario plays a massive role in how you play a list and how its going to perform. Weather you play maelstorm missions or ITC missions is going to drastically change the outcome. Games are not won plainly on kills, its also about points. Just something to consider
Phoenix8472 wrote: Is there any merit to using Webway Strike on Shining Spears? 3CP to deep strike Spears and Skyrunner Warlock to Quicken them into Laser Lance range & easy charge distance of a choice target? I’m thinking drop in a minimum sized kamikaze squad that either occupies my opponent for a turn whilst the rest of my force advances or it causes mayhem behind enemy lines if they are ignored. They could also get into combat for protection from retaliatory shooting then fall back but open up shooting again because they have Fly.
Thinking that against my usual opponents (Guard) they could charge a Tank and cost them a rounds shooting to fall back.
This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.
Dionysodorus wrote: This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.
Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.
Autarch skyrunner (eye for distant events)
1 far seer
1 warlocks skyrunner (enhance or empower)
2warlocks (protect/quick)
1 hemlock (jinx)
9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) webway striking
9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) on the table
I run it saim-hann as modt super competivitice list the -1 to hit doesnt go very far. (Probably why none of the -1 to hit armies havent won any major tournaments). Saim hann gives me the oppurtinity to get first turn charges with bike squads. One getting quickend and one using the saim-hann stratagey. The other thing is the autarch sky runner can turn 1 charge and soak up over watch for one of your bike squad of thier is a crazy flamer unit you are worried about. It also protects against failing short charges.
The modules around this army core have changed in my mind alot, but that core seems pretty solid.
Dionysodorus wrote: This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.
Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.
-
i'd agree that it's probably a waste to Webway the warlock, as you should be able to get him in range of them usually anyway for Quicken. You could use that Webway slot to deepstrike another big unit of something scary, to divert some attention from the Spears. Or save your 2CP and use something like Scorpions/Warpspiders who can deepstrike for free alongside the spears.
Dionysodorus wrote: This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.
Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.
-
i'd agree that it's probably a waste to Webway the warlock, as you should be able to get him in range of them usually anyway for Quicken. You could use that Webway slot to deepstrike another big unit of something scary, to divert some attention from the Spears. Or save your 2CP and use something like Scorpions/Warpspiders who can deepstrike for free alongside the spears.
You can always Swiftshroud them into place, because who isn't taking Alaitoc?
Autarch skyrunner (eye for distant events)
1 far seer
1 warlocks skyrunner (enhance or empower)
2warlocks (protect/quick)
1 hemlock (jinx)
9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) webway striking
9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) on the table
I run it saim-hann as modt super competivitice list the -1 to hit doesnt go very far. (Probably why none of the -1 to hit armies havent won any major tournaments). Saim hann gives me the oppurtinity to get first turn charges with bike squads. One getting quickend and one using the saim-hann stratagey. The other thing is the autarch sky runner can turn 1 charge and soak up over watch for one of your bike squad of thier is a crazy flamer unit you are worried about. It also protects against failing short charges.
The modules around this army core have changed in my mind alot, but that core seems pretty solid.
-1 to hit is great on it's own but if I can take it away from you and all I have to do is get close to you to shut it down it's just mitigation of damage on turn 1. That is good an all but I think Ulthwe is equally competitive. Siamhan is actaully the best way to run your shinning spears due to your advance and charge stratagem.
I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.
I prefer Alatoic for MSU Spears because getting them there alive is all-important. They're screened with Rangers turn 1 and you can't move within 24" of them without risking a charge. Only flyers can actually alpha strike them from within 12", and Spears eat flyers for breakfast.
But Ulthwe is probably best for the Quicken bomb since they're going to be spread out in a line spanning the whole front of your opponent's army. They're going to be within 12" of almost everything every turn.
Bharring wrote: But to take it away you need to come within 12".
Most CWE infantry want you within 12".
Especially Spears.
Sounds like a battle to me. LOL. 50% chance to win or lose a fair fight. Also - spears are coming to me anyways I assume - and it's going to suck regardless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dionysodorus wrote: I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.
Depends on how big of a blow you want to make. Think about how big of a move you need to get into the perfect possition to say...1 shot a lemonruss with your lasers - do huge damage to an infantry unit with your TLSC and then charge 3-4 units. That's why I like Siamhan spears - they just have the highest potential damage. They are easier to kill first turn BUT after that with fortune/protect/and conceal on them - they are almost impossible to kill anyways. Losing the ability to advance and fire at full BS is a huge detriment for a ynnari spears - they can still advance and charge with the strategem but I expect these kinds of interactions are going to go away pretty quick. Ynnari should not be able to use craftworld strategems IMO.
Dionysodorus wrote: I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.
I prefer Alatoic for MSU Spears because getting them there alive is all-important. They're screened with Rangers turn 1 and you can't move within 24" of them without risking a charge. Only flyers can actually alpha strike them from within 12", and Spears eat flyers for breakfast.
But Ulthwe is probably best for the Quicken bomb since they're going to be spread out in a line spanning the whole front of your opponent's army. They're going to be within 12" of almost everything every turn.
Ynnari would be good, but I wouldn't rag So hard on the saim-hann trait. Failing your charge is TERRIBLE like game lovingly bad. It's just one more thing to take the edge off needing to cast quicken and charge. Court of the young king is nic3 for that, but it's mutually exclusive with respects to the saim-hann stratagem which is basicly +6 to your charge and reroll 1s.
Sammhainn also gives them reroll charges. I've failed enough sub-6" charges to want that on my Swordwind force, and it has no Windriders (Still went Uthwe, because that's what my guys have always been, but it was tempting).
I like MSU because they're easier to hide. Also, they're small enough a threat where the opponent may not focus on them, while I have enough points left to bring other threats. But big enough that, if the opponent doesn't focus on them, they can do some damage.
If you're doing lots of psker buffs, larger units are obvious. But if not, I'd rather have 2 3-mans than 1 6-man.
Dionysodorus wrote: I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.
I prefer Alatoic for MSU Spears because getting them there alive is all-important. They're screened with Rangers turn 1 and you can't move within 24" of them without risking a charge. Only flyers can actually alpha strike them from within 12", and Spears eat flyers for breakfast.
But Ulthwe is probably best for the Quicken bomb since they're going to be spread out in a line spanning the whole front of your opponent's army. They're going to be within 12" of almost everything every turn.
Ynnari would be good, but I wouldn't rag So hard on the saim-hann trait. Failing your charge is TERRIBLE like game lovingly bad. It's just one more thing to take the edge off needing to cast quicken and charge. Court of the young king is nic3 for that, but it's mutually exclusive with respects to the saim-hann stratagem which is basicly +6 to your charge and reroll 1s.
The thing is, using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice is about as good as re-rolling both. For stuff that's aiming for pretty safe charges anyway, the Saim-Hann Attribute is typically going to work out to be worth a lot less than a single CP per unit per game. Like, even if you're Saim-Hann do you try to make a 10" charge with your 3-man unit or do you just Advance and then shoot with your lances instead? Re-rolling charges is primarily useful for armies that are planning to try to make a lot of risky charges. It's a big deal if you're deep-striking in five or six CC units. You expect to get 4 re-rolls off of it in that case, and you wouldn't even have the option to use CP for all of those if you brought everything in at once. There are probably Chaos lists that make good use of the Renegades trait. If Tyranids are getting something like this there will be builds that make good use of it. But you don't see many Eldar armies that benefit much. Certainly it seems like a no-brainer to swap it for Strength from Death.
That makes a lot of sense. If Boyz fail a charge, well, they're counting on numbers getting them through the shooting phase. If CWE fail a charge, they're usually toast.
Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.
Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.
Dionysodorus wrote: Spears do far more damage than Hemlocks if they get to do everything. MSU Spears are 2-4x as efficient as undenied Smiting Hemlocks (at 200 points) vs GEQs, MEQs, MEQs in cover, and Razorbacks. They're even more efficient against everything if they don't get to charge but do still shoot their lances, and are better against GEQs and competitive against MEQs with just their catapults.
But yeah, Spears are generally less durable against many short-ranged weapons. MSU Spears take about twice as much damage from bolters or assault cannons. On the other hand, they're slightly more durable vs overcharged plasma and a lot more durable vs d6 damage weapons.
I feel like both are excellent units and I'd really want to include at least one unit of Spears and 1 Hemlock in every list. Like I said earlier, the big issue with MSU Spears is just that they're not reliable turn 1 damage. However, I've found that Alatoic lists can generally afford to take a turn or even two of shooting. You can move most of your stuff up behind a Ranger screen to be in position for a turn 2 offensive. Nothing is very threatening to your Rangers aside from deep-strikers or very fast CC, and if you have Spears behind the Rangers you're going to come out ahead on that trade every time.
But a single 9-man Spears unit stands on its own as one of the strongest choices in the codex. It doesn't take much babysitting to make it incredibly threatening -- after Protect and a single cast of Quicken, everything else is gravy. I'd probably throw in Fortune in case of mortal wounds but not bother with offensive buffs. It's not "fire and forget". It's incredibly hard to kill and it can't be tied up. If Ynnari there's really nothing else in the codex that can realistically compete with its damage output.
Yeah, killing troops wasn't really the role I was thinking about. Spears kill T7 better, Hemlocks are better vs T8, T6 can go either way. But the problem of range remains for Spears. Against a good opponent, they will be sacrificed to take anything important out, and even then they won't reach something that your opponent really wants to protect. And they are significantly more fragile than Hemlocks, especially since it's harder to stay outside 12", and they can be cc'd. Hemlocks will do more damage because they will be alive longer.
MSU Spears are certainly more survivable, and I like that role. But a big Reaper unit is a safer bet for buffing, and Hemlocks are much better for screening and going big game hunting.
Fafnir wrote: Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.
Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.
Well, the CW attributes & stratagems are worth getting into the list somehow. Taking an <Alaitoc> Flyer detachment is enough to get access to the stratagems and vehicles can't get SfD anyway. But othersiw, yes, Ynnari is still going to be the way to go.
I definitly agree strength from death is good accross the board. I definitly can't say otherwise.
However you do drop battle focus on your spears who's shooting will all be -1 to hit if you advance. Which is alot of shooting. That said shooting or attack twice rid nice. I don't think you can charge twice atleast not until after the charge phase.
I think I feel good putting saim-hann spears in my list if I'm bringing 2 squads and I intend to use the stratagem. Access to advance to get into range, and refilling charges without need to waste cp, or with the option to use CP is the odds of rolling one die is better than both. Is pretty good. Even more so as my list has forewarning scat bike to protect againt enemy drops.
Though i could admit thr ynnari ie most likely abit better.
Dionysodorus wrote: Spears do far more damage than Hemlocks if they get to do everything. MSU Spears are 2-4x as efficient as undenied Smiting Hemlocks (at 200 points) vs GEQs, MEQs, MEQs in cover, and Razorbacks. They're even more efficient against everything if they don't get to charge but do still shoot their lances, and are better against GEQs and competitive against MEQs with just their catapults.
But yeah, Spears are generally less durable against many short-ranged weapons. MSU Spears take about twice as much damage from bolters or assault cannons. On the other hand, they're slightly more durable vs overcharged plasma and a lot more durable vs d6 damage weapons.
I feel like both are excellent units and I'd really want to include at least one unit of Spears and 1 Hemlock in every list. Like I said earlier, the big issue with MSU Spears is just that they're not reliable turn 1 damage. However, I've found that Alatoic lists can generally afford to take a turn or even two of shooting. You can move most of your stuff up behind a Ranger screen to be in position for a turn 2 offensive. Nothing is very threatening to your Rangers aside from deep-strikers or very fast CC, and if you have Spears behind the Rangers you're going to come out ahead on that trade every time.
But a single 9-man Spears unit stands on its own as one of the strongest choices in the codex. It doesn't take much babysitting to make it incredibly threatening -- after Protect and a single cast of Quicken, everything else is gravy. I'd probably throw in Fortune in case of mortal wounds but not bother with offensive buffs. It's not "fire and forget". It's incredibly hard to kill and it can't be tied up. If Ynnari there's really nothing else in the codex that can realistically compete with its damage output.
Yeah, killing troops wasn't really the role I was thinking about. Spears kill T7 better, Hemlocks are better vs T8, T6 can go either way. But the problem of range remains for Spears. Against a good opponent, they will be sacrificed to take anything important out, and even then they won't reach something that your opponent really wants to protect. And they are significantly more fragile than Hemlocks, especially since it's harder to stay outside 12", and they can be cc'd. Hemlocks will do more damage because they will be alive longer.
MSU Spears are certainly more survivable, and I like that role. But a big Reaper unit is a safer bet for buffing, and Hemlocks are much better for screening and going big game hunting.
Quicken plus double advance charging saim-hann are fast enough to reach anything. They fly and can end charge inside your bubble wrap. This does allot enemy's to corner themselves and bubble wrap all the way around vehicles, but with flying pile is you can oil in in such away that you can still lock important models in combat that don't want to be in combat.
On top of that spears have no bad targets than to having do look kuch fight power, and so many multidamage attacks. They are accross the board great.
As you, I and everyone has said though. Being closer is spookier and leaves you more vulnerable to damage, but the spears are tough as snot.
Fafnir wrote: Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.
Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.
I strongly disagree. Yeah, you'd generally like to have your big unit of deep-striking Guardians or Spears be Ynnari. You'd prefer that your big unit of Reapers be Ynnari. But a typical Ynnari list also contains a bunch of Soulburst fodder for other units, and you'd prefer that these have Craftworld Attributes. MSU Spears are a great accompaniment to your other units, because they're super-efficient on offense and if they die your big units will get to Soulburst. These can be Alatoic for added turn 1 durability, before your big Spears unit comes in. Guardians in Serpents are probably best as Biel-Tan or Ulthwe rather than Ynnari. Even if their passengers are Ynnari, your vehicles themselves really want to be Alatoic or Ulthwe. Rangers are obviously best as Alatoic. Swooping Hawks and MSU Reapers probably want to be Alatoic too. I think there's probably even a case for small units of Alatoic Shadow Spectres, despite their Soulburst being so good. It's really just the Iyanden and Saim-Hann Attributes that jump out to me as "basically worse than other options in every realistic scenario". Even Biel-Tan has a place, even if it's pretty limited to Serpents with Guardians or Avengers.
Now, the warlord traits and relics are pretty bad, yeah. It's unfortunate that there's very little downside to bringing an Ynnari detachment, since you lose out on so little by not having a Craftworld warlord, and this will only get worse as time goes on.
I suspect in short time that ynnari units will be excluded from using craftworld stratagems. Consider the ramifications - ynnari gets a codex too which also uses the same wordage as the craft-world stratagems. Now an elder detachment with ynnari will have 60 stratgems to choose from...that's just pure shenanigans.
Fafnir wrote: Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.
Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.
I strongly disagree. Yeah, you'd generally like to have your big unit of deep-striking Guardians or Spears be Ynnari. You'd prefer that your big unit of Reapers be Ynnari. But a typical Ynnari list also contains a bunch of Soulburst fodder for other units, and you'd prefer that these have Craftworld Attributes. MSU Spears are a great accompaniment to your other units, because they're super-efficient on offense and if they die your big units will get to Soulburst. These can be Alatoic for added turn 1 durability, before your big Spears unit comes in. Guardians in Serpents are probably best as Biel-Tan or Ulthwe rather than Ynnari. Even if their passengers are Ynnari, your vehicles themselves really want to be Alatoic or Ulthwe. Rangers are obviously best as Alatoic. Swooping Hawks and MSU Reapers probably want to be Alatoic too. I think there's probably even a case for small units of Alatoic Shadow Spectres, despite their Soulburst being so good. It's really just the Iyanden and Saim-Hann Attributes that jump out to me as "basically worse than other options in every realistic scenario". Even Biel-Tan has a place, even if it's pretty limited to Serpents with Guardians or Avengers.
Now, the warlord traits and relics are pretty bad, yeah. It's unfortunate that there's very little downside to bringing an Ynnari detachment, since you lose out on so little by not having a Craftworld warlord, and this will only get worse as time goes on.
Except Ynnari took a big nerf in this edition. No more webwayportal. Deep strike has to be 9" away. Spamming small units means you are going second most the time. Soul burst can only affect 1 unit and not 2. Plus loss of army traits for being ynnari. I'm not going to argue about a 10 man dark reaper shooting twice being amazing. However a dark reaper unit that is harder to kill might actually be a better choice. Also - Yvraine baby sitting some dark reapers is a 135 point investment - that is the cost of 5 dark reapers now...assuming your opponent is going to target reapers first...(why wouldn't they) and you are missing out on a defensive trait like ulthwe or aliotoc for every unit in that detachment. It doesn't really seem like auto include to me. It just seems like a reasonable choice to be made. I think spears benefit more from being craftworld anyways...really the only really obviously better use of ynnari is for guardian drops because they get to shoot twice...I have made ynnari list that focus around them and I was not satisfied with the end result. The requirements of attaining command points/ having 3-4 warlocks and a farseer. Spending another 135 on yvraine is just really taxing - to me anyways.
Xenomancers wrote: I suspect in short time that ynnari units will be excluded from using craftworld stratagems. Consider the ramifications - ynnari gets a codex too which also uses the same wordage as the craft-world stratagems. Now an elder detachment with ynnari will have 60 stratgems to choose from...that's just pure shenanigans.
Well for a start, there's only 27 Eldar stratagems (I think), and there's no reason to think Ynnari would get that many as they don't have the additional Craftworld or Unit specific ones. I suspect they'll only get maybe 10 extra stratagems at most, so it'll more like be 35-40 stratagems.
And that isn't at all unfair. And I'll tell you why - Imperium.
A Space Marine army gets 27 stratagems. They can easily take a detachment of Imperial Guard for another 25 stratagems. They can also take a detachment of Blood Angels (codex coming in the next month or so), for another (approximately) 15-20 stratagems. So an Imperial army can get 75+ stratagems without breaking a sweat. And the Blood Angel and Vanilla stratagems are likely to overlap in which units can be targetted, as most of them just say "Adeptus Astartes". But there are a couple IG stratagems that could also be used - Preliminary Bombardment and Take Cover would both work for space marine armies.
But yeh, Eldar+Ynnari won't have any more stratagems to use than a mixed Ultramarine+Blood Angel army.
I think we'll have to see what chapter approved being. I think it will have several big game changer rules in it. That might damper ynnari and any army trying to use stratagem out side of a main faction.
Xenomancers wrote: I suspect in short time that ynnari units will be excluded from using craftworld stratagems. Consider the ramifications - ynnari gets a codex too which also uses the same wordage as the craft-world stratagems. Now an elder detachment with ynnari will have 60 stratgems to choose from...that's just pure shenanigans.
Well for a start, there's only 27 Eldar stratagems (I think), and there's no reason to think Ynnari would get that many as they don't have the additional Craftworld or Unit specific ones. I suspect they'll only get maybe 10 extra stratagems at most, so it'll more like be 35-40 stratagems.
And that isn't at all unfair. And I'll tell you why - Imperium.
A Space Marine army gets 27 stratagems. They can easily take a detachment of Imperial Guard for another 25 stratagems. They can also take a detachment of Blood Angels (codex coming in the next month or so), for another (approximately) 15-20 stratagems. So an Imperial army can get 75+ stratagems without breaking a sweat. And the Blood Angel and Vanilla stratagems are likely to overlap in which units can be targetted, as most of them just say "Adeptus Astartes". But there are a couple IG stratagems that could also be used - Preliminary Bombardment and Take Cover would both work for space marine armies.
But yeh, Eldar+Ynnari won't have any more stratagems to use than a mixed Ultramarine+Blood Angel army.
I checked out your webway portal site looks pretty sweet. I did notice you list spectres as a 10" move, I see it in my digital forgeworld xenos index as 12". Did their movement get reduced somewhere?
The is no point in debating how things may be when the new ynnari codex comes out, we can only talk about how things are right now.
The benefit of having your spears be ynnari over craftworld is that you have two shots at quicken/wotp. If have a large unit of 9 spears, you don't want to miss your quicken, you can use wotp as back up. If you have multiple small units of spears you can double move with two units a turn instead of one. It would not be unreasonable to have two units of spears, one gets wotp'd and goes to attack a lone character while the other group of spears gets quickened and attacks the unit the character was with. The quicken'd unit of spears can then attack twice from the soul burst when the character dies or can soul burst out of combat before the enemy can strike back.
Why do people keep saying the avatar is garbage? I think it's pretty compatible for the cost.
250 point kaine gets you 5 str 8 attacks at ap-4, plus a ranged attack. It can't be targeted unless closest target. It has a 3+/5++/5+++ save.
It is overcost I think compared to deamon princes but for Eldar they don't have many super heavy hitters that are charecters like this. It can revive on command points. You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge makes him incredibly fast especially if your opponent has read how "slow the avatar is and how it takes to long to get into close combat" . (This happened last time I played with him, managed to go 23" in first turn and charged into and killed a squad of 3 thunderwolf calvary, at which point my opponent freaked and over reacted shooting a ton into him killing him and only him. Warwalkers and wraithlords took care of the rest)
Or is it because of its high cost compared to say a wraithlord that it gets a bad rap? I mean, I don't mind , I will keep using it because I like the idea of it.
lambsandlions wrote: The is no point in debating how things may be when the new ynnari codex comes out, we can only talk about how things are right now.
The benefit of having your spears be ynnari over craftworld is that you have two shots at quicken/wotp. If have a large unit of 9 spears, you don't want to miss your quicken, you can use wotp as back up. If you have multiple small units of spears you can double move with two units a turn instead of one. It would not be unreasonable to have two units of spears, one gets wotp'd and goes to attack a lone character while the other group of spears gets quickened and attacks the unit the character was with. The quicken'd unit of spears can then attack twice from the soul burst when the character dies or can soul burst out of combat before the enemy can strike back.
That's a good point - however - if you soulburst the spears - you can't soulburst the reapers. So it's a net loss. If you were siamhan and advanced - you could probably charge the front line anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Why do people keep saying the avatar is garbage? I think it's pretty compatible for the cost.
250 point kaine gets you 5 str 8 attacks at ap-4, plus a ranged attack. It can't be targeted unless closest target. It has a 3+/5++/5+++ save.
It is overcost I think compared to deamon princes but for Eldar they don't have many super heavy hitters that are charecters like this. It can revive on command points. You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge makes him incredibly fast especially if your opponent has read how "slow the avatar is and how it takes to long to get into close combat" . (This happened last time I played with him, managed to go 23" in first turn and charged into and killed a squad of 3 thunderwolf calvary, at which point my opponent freaked and over reacted shooting a ton into him killing him and only him. Warwalkers and wraithlords took care of the rest)
Or is it because of its high cost compared to say a wraithlord that it gets a bad rap? I mean, I don't mind , I will keep using it because I like the idea of it.
Hes not bad - hes just part on an unpopular build. Think he works good with a heavy banshee and guardian build. You can also quicken him. Plus his revive ability and phoenix gem is pretty good too.
That's a good point - however - if you soulburst the spears - you can't soulburst the reapers. So it's a net loss. If you were siamhan and advanced - you could probably charge the front line anyways.
But that is the power of soulburst, its versatility. If quicken fails and you need to move those spears you can wotp. If wotp would be better used on your reapers, do that. Be flexible with how you use it. There will be times where your spears getting into combat is more important than shooting twice.
With ynnari spears you quicken your spears into the backfield and killed of a character you can use the soulburst to gtfo.
Azuza001 wrote: . You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge .
Everything's great when you cheat.
Matchless Agility makes your Advance die count as a 6" instead d6". Also, nothing you mentioned lets the Avatar Advance and be allowed to charge.
Crap, that's my fault, me and my opponent both read it wrong, so that was an unintended cheat. I thought it read add 6" plus d6" not add 6" instead of d6".
Also I don't know why we thought you could charge too.. This is totally my bad. Maybe we got it confused with Quicken where you get another move and then charge. :p
I checked out your webway portal site looks pretty sweet. I did notice you list spectres as a 10" move, I see it in my digital forgeworld xenos index as 12". Did their movement get reduced somewhere?
*Checks Codex* Nope, you're right, they're 12"... not sure why I wrote it as 10. I'd done a lot of writing in a short period of time so I probably either misread it or got them mixed up with some other unit. Have corrected it now though, thanks
Hes not bad - hes just part on an unpopular build. Think he works good with a heavy banshee and guardian build. You can also quicken him. Plus his revive ability and phoenix gem is pretty good too.
You can't quicken him. The Avatar is a monster, not Infantry or a Bike.
Yeah, the Avatar does not work with any of the important Eldar synergies. He might as well be from a separate faction entirely. Heaven help him if GW decides he counts as a named character too.
If you're looking for a comparison based on cost, just look at Abaddon. 10 points less, and he's a marginally better fighter, more durable against most of the things that would want to target him (half damage), gives 2 CP, and gives way better buffs. Not as mobile, but he can deepstrike. He can also be supported by the abilities within his own faction, unlike the Avatar.
I have been thinking about big squads of Shining Spears with buffs in line with the thinking here.
A similar combo I have been thinking of is 3 Vypers with double Shuriken Cannons. You can buff these up the same, protect for 2+ save, Alaitoc and Conceal for -2 to hit outside of 12". If you can keep 3 up then movement is 20" which is great.
Quicken can let these guys move 40" which could be great for objective grabbing.
In summary t5, 2+ save, 20" move, -2 to hit, 18 wounds for 210pts plus two Warlocks for buffs. Downside is 6 Shuriken cannons worth of firepower only.
Korlandril wrote: I have been thinking about big squads of Shining Spears with buffs in line with the thinking here.
A similar combo I have been thinking of is 3 Vypers with double Shuriken Cannons. You can buff these up the same, protect for 2+ save, Alaitoc and Conceal for -2 to hit outside of 12". If you can keep 3 up then movement is 20" which is great.
Quicken can let these guys move 40" which could be great for objective grabbing.
In summary t5, 2+ save, 20" move, -2 to hit, 18 wounds for 210pts plus two Warlocks for buffs. Downside is 6 Shuriken cannons worth of firepower only.
I don't think your enemy will bother with a few Vypers if you go to all the effort of buffing their resilience with conceal and protect. They don't have enough teeth to be a threat, so your opponent will just shoot other more vulnerable targets.
So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go.
This is simply down to redundancy as others have mentioned. if quicken fails we have 2 options - Saim-Hann re-rolling charges, or Biel-Tan for a +2 to the charge.
The more i think about it, the +2 to charge is likely always going to be better in a failed Quicken situation as you can then use a further 1 CP to re-roll one of the dice... It means you're now spending up to 4 CP to get them into position compared to the 1 of Saim-Hann, but arguably more reliable.
If Quicken does go off though, then there are no problems.
If you are starting on the table though, you def want Saim-Hann for the stratagem in my opinion.
Kdash wrote: So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go.
This is simply down to redundancy as others have mentioned. if quicken fails we have 2 options - Saim-Hann re-rolling charges, or Biel-Tan for a +2 to the charge.
The more i think about it, the +2 to charge is likely always going to be better in a failed Quicken situation as you can then use a further 1 CP to re-roll one of the dice... It means you're now spending up to 4 CP to get them into position compared to the 1 of Saim-Hann, but arguably more reliable.
If Quicken does go off though, then there are no problems.
If you are starting on the table though, you def want Saim-Hann for the stratagem in my opinion.
You are thinking about stuff wrong. Biel-tan's stratagem gives you +2 to you're charge. Saim-Hann's give your spears +6 to thier charge, as it allows your advancing units to charge, and bikes always advance 6, so you get to go 6' closer before you make you're charge. ON top of that you're also getting the reroll charge. Both stratagems (the biel-tan and Saim--hann one give you reroll 1's in the following fight phase). So for shining spears saim-hann is the only options.
realisticly i'd only think of using the stratagem only when i'm using two units any way, so you can advance one squads and charge, adn then quick another squad and charge. Only occationally would you really need to use the stratagem and quick a unit.
Yeah, even though I am 100% Biel-Tan in this instance, in the vacuum, Mmimzie is right. If you take your entire army into account maybe Beil-tan is better, maybe not. But just pure spears Saim-Hann is better.
Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.
Korlandril wrote: Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.
Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.
Who's the better babysitter for a squad of Dark Reapers? A farseer for Guide + Forewarned stratagem, or a Warlord Autarch for the passive re-roll 1s (no need to cast, frees up guide elsewhere) and a the chance to re-use CPs? Thinking primarily for a Siam-Hann list, so the Reapers are really going to be the only static unit.
The Shadow wrote: Who's the better babysitter for a squad of Dark Reapers? A farseer for Guide + Forewarned stratagem, or a Warlord Autarch for the passive re-roll 1s (no need to cast, frees up guide elsewhere) and a the chance to re-use CPs? Thinking primarily for a Siam-Hann list, so the Reapers are really going to be the only static unit.
Farseer is a no-brainer for a full sized squad. Forewarned can have a huge tactical impact. Min-sized can def favor Autarch, might even consider Maugen Ra for anything other than a hardcore game. With Saim Hann they likely are only going to live to shoot one turn, anyway.
Kdash wrote: So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go.
This is simply down to redundancy as others have mentioned. if quicken fails we have 2 options - Saim-Hann re-rolling charges, or Biel-Tan for a +2 to the charge.
The more i think about it, the +2 to charge is likely always going to be better in a failed Quicken situation as you can then use a further 1 CP to re-roll one of the dice... It means you're now spending up to 4 CP to get them into position compared to the 1 of Saim-Hann, but arguably more reliable.
If Quicken does go off though, then there are no problems.
If you are starting on the table though, you def want Saim-Hann for the stratagem in my opinion.
You are thinking about stuff wrong. Biel-tan's stratagem gives you +2 to you're charge. Saim-Hann's give your spears +6 to thier charge, as it allows your advancing units to charge, and bikes always advance 6, so you get to go 6' closer before you make you're charge. ON top of that you're also getting the reroll charge. Both stratagems (the biel-tan and Saim--hann one give you reroll 1's in the following fight phase). So for shining spears saim-hann is the only options.
realisticly i'd only think of using the stratagem only when i'm using two units any way, so you can advance one squads and charge, adn then quick another squad and charge. Only occationally would you really need to use the stratagem and quick a unit.
While i agree that Saim-Hann gives you the extra 6", i'm talking about first turn from the Webway and the event of Quicken failing. In that event, i'd argue that the Biel-Tan stratagem is better, not to mention the bonus you'll have from re-rolling the shuriken catapult 1's.
If Quicken is cast successfully, then, it will all depend on the enemy deployment and whether or not you will need the extra 6" to get over the bubble wrap.
So, i think, if you get Quicken off, Saim-Hann is likely better, but, if you want to extra redundancy for the times it doesnt go off, then, Biel-Tan might be better.
Dionysodorus wrote: This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.
Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.
-
If you investing the points to do this, I would invest a few more points an another CP in a Warlock Conclave to cast the powers. Have a Farseer nearby so you can use the Seer Council stratagem to give you +1 to cast.
xmbk wrote: Why webway Spears? I think you have to go S-H for full size Spears, which is their biggest downside.
Simply because of 1st turn. My army right now has more drops than most, so there is a strong chance i might not get first turn. In that case, my unit of 8 or 9 Spears will likely get targeted first turn as they will be one of the "main" threats and won't have any negatives to hit, like my flyers will.
For me, it's all about trying to plan for situations while playing a pretty glass hammer force.
So I personal leave the option open to webway in my shiny spears.
So in my list I have 2 big shiny spear squad.
If my opponent has devastating fire power that I can't deploy in such a away to protect both spear unirs. Then i can web way one unit and lightning reaction the other unit.
However if my opponents have really place scouts or need to move into me to really do thier eorst. Or if i can negate 8am lot of thier damage with my rangers (blocking drop plasm/tau commanders), then I'll deploy on the table and save my cp.
As for viel-tan you are right that you could get a more likely charge should quicken fail, but I use the saim-hann to go for two shining spear charges. One trying to charge after advancing and one trying to use quicken to allow a charge.
Also I think a better use of the two CP is to use seer council and maybe a command point reroll to have a better shot of getting quicken off.
mmimzie wrote: So I personal leave the option open to webway in my shiny spears.
So in my list I have 2 big shiny spear squad.
If my opponent has devastating fire power that I can't deploy in such a away to protect both spear unirs. Then i can web way one unit and lightning reaction the other unit.
However if my opponents have really place scouts or need to move into me to really do thier eorst. Or if i can negate 8am lot of thier damage with my rangers (blocking drop plasm/tau commanders), then I'll deploy on the table and save my cp.
As for viel-tan you are right that you could get a more likely charge should quicken fail, but I use the saim-hann to go for two shining spear charges. One trying to charge after advancing and one trying to use quicken to allow a charge.
Also I think a better use of the two CP is to use seer council and maybe a command point reroll to have a better shot of getting quicken off.
Thats the only downside - 2 cp. While, as Biel-Tan i can give the warlock with Quicken the Biel-Tan relic to allow a full re-roll and then also use the farseer + warlock stratagem for a +1 to cast (this would also help with guide and fortune - though might be better to run it doom/fortune instead.)
Expensive in CP for all the options, but as i'm only running 1 squad it should drastically improve the odds of me getting the charge off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xmbk wrote: They are pretty resilient. Is everything else in your list -2? I would rather have Spears shot turn 1 than Reapers.
Oh i agree they are pretty resilient, but, when everything else has -2 to hit/can't be targeted or is the 3 sets of dire avengers to make up the Biel-Tan battalion, i can fully see them being targeted every time. While it is up to 19 wounds to get through with a 4++, there are plenty of lists out there that can seriously damage the unit. A destroyed unit is then no real use to me due to my setup and i'd have to play the rest of the game defensively and hope they flyers make more than their points back.
A good chunk of my army is based around supporting them and ensuring they do as much damage in turns 1 and 2 as possible.
mmimzie wrote: So I personal leave the option open to webway in my shiny spears.
So in my list I have 2 big shiny spear squad.
If my opponent has devastating fire power that I can't deploy in such a away to protect both spear unirs. Then i can web way one unit and lightning reaction the other unit.
However if my opponents have really place scouts or need to move into me to really do thier eorst. Or if i can negate 8am lot of thier damage with my rangers (blocking drop plasm/tau commanders), then I'll deploy on the table and save my cp.
As for viel-tan you are right that you could get a more likely charge should quicken fail, but I use the saim-hann to go for two shining spear charges. One trying to charge after advancing and one trying to use quicken to allow a charge.
Also I think a better use of the two CP is to use seer council and maybe a command point reroll to have a better shot of getting quicken off.
Thats the only downside - 2 cp. While, as Biel-Tan i can give the warlock with Quicken the Biel-Tan relic to allow a full re-roll and then also use the farseer + warlock stratagem for a +1 to cast (this would also help with guide and fortune - though might be better to run it doom/fortune instead.)
Expensive in CP for all the options, but as i'm only running 1 squad it should drastically improve the odds of me getting the charge off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xmbk wrote: They are pretty resilient. Is everything else in your list -2? I would rather have Spears shot turn 1 than Reapers.
Oh i agree they are pretty resilient, but, when everything else has -2 to hit/can't be targeted or is the 3 sets of dire avengers to make up the Biel-Tan battalion, i can fully see them being targeted every time. While it is up to 19 wounds to get through with a 4++, there are plenty of lists out there that can seriously damage the unit. A destroyed unit is then no real use to me due to my setup and i'd have to play the rest of the game defensively and hope they flyers make more than their points back.
A good chunk of my army is based around supporting them and ensuring they do as much damage in turns 1 and 2 as possible.
I'd rather give my spears -1 to hit by using lightning reflexes. You only in my opinion have the option of web way striking a spear squad because you want to force your opponent to shoot another spear squad who can be printed by lightning reactions.
The Shadow wrote: Who's the better babysitter for a squad of Dark Reapers? A farseer for Guide + Forewarned stratagem, or a Warlord Autarch for the passive re-roll 1s (no need to cast, frees up guide elsewhere) and a the chance to re-use CPs? Thinking primarily for a Siam-Hann list, so the Reapers are really going to be the only static unit.
Depends what else you have in your list. If you just have 1 biggish squad of Reapers then a Farseer is probably better as he can Guide them from up to 24" away so he is not tied to their location.
If you have multiple units or you have other shooty units nearby, the Autarch starts to look pretty good. It's not just Reapers that benefit. Support platforms, Grav Tanks, War Walkers and Wraithlords/knights are all good subjects for an Autarchs's buff. Basically any 2+ shoty units that are likely to remain in close proximity.
Korlandril wrote: Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.
Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.
That's about all there is to it.
Yes, I'm bitter.
Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.
I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.
Korlandril wrote: Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.
Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.
That's about all there is to it.
Yes, I'm bitter.
Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.
I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.
I ended up blowing 9 CP bringing The Avatar back 3 times in my last game. He was a pretty good sponge but he is far too fragile. He really should have a 2+/4+ like in the old days.
Used to be he would be protected from Dreadnoughts due to better initiative, usually wrecking them before they could attack, high WS meaning they would hit on 4+/5+. Would take about 40 attacks for them to take him down (if they got to attack). Nowadays if a Dreadnought gets a round against you The Avatar is probably going down hard.
Korlandril wrote: Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.
Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.
That's about all there is to it.
Yes, I'm bitter.
Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.
I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.
I ended up blowing 9 CP bringing The Avatar back 3 times in my last game. He was a pretty good sponge but he is far too fragile. He really should have a 2+/4+ like in the old days.
Used to be he would be protected from Dreadnoughts due to better initiative, usually wrecking them before they could attack, high WS meaning they would hit on 4+/5+. Would take about 40 attacks for them to take him down (if they got to attack). Nowadays if a Dreadnought gets a round against you The Avatar is probably going down hard.
Oh wow, what was the reasoning for using basically all your CP on the resurection strat? You must have had a better use for them surely. How did the game go?
pessa wrote: Just tweaking my Alaitoc gun line. It almost seems too simple but does the idea of babysitting 10 Rangers with a 35pt Warlock have any merit?
I'm thinking Empower = mortal wounds on a 5-6 (+regular damage) could start to get pretty uncomfortable?
Or perhaps 30 rangers with 3 Warlocks castin Empower.
Particularly if the target happens to be doomed as well ...
Empower is Fight phase only. Also, it can only be attempted once per turn.
pessa wrote: Just tweaking my Alaitoc gun line. It almost seems too simple but does the idea of babysitting 10 Rangers with a 35pt Warlock have any merit?
I'm thinking Empower = mortal wounds on a 5-6 (+regular damage) could start to get pretty uncomfortable?
Or perhaps 30 rangers with 3 Warlocks castin Empower.
Particularly if the target happens to be doomed as well ...
Empower is Fight phase only. Also, it can only be attempted once per turn.
Check. Now I just need to learn how to read and all will be well ...
Can we talk farseers and warlocks??? How many is too many?? Bikes or no bikes? What powers to bring???
Warlocks are the tricker one. Spirit seers exist and can cast big boy smites for 10 more points or so, while also gaining access to the runes of battle. Benefit is also that the warlocks are cheaper, and often the runes of battle spells are better used than smite is, unless your getting desperate later into the game. I think if you have one big melee units or two small ones (sub 300pts of your army worth of melee). I'd take one spirit seer as after your melee unit gets widdles down smite becomes more prominent. If you ahve 500+ pts in melee warlocks, and multiple become a reason option as these melee units can be buffed to give a massive bonus going into the later stages of the game where, while you might miss the smite saving a few points and bring a few extra locks for cheap can be worth it.
Farseer. In my mind i see two, maybe 3 farseers. Guide+Fortune, Doom+Execution+(smite late game), and Guide+Doom. I kind of rank them in that order. After a few games i feel like i either want a back field farseer who is keeping his distances casting guide and protecting himself in side of a fortuned unit. In my book moving any closer to cast doom feels bad. While doom also isn't always good. However, you can make your list use guide really well by taking a really large Scatt Bike or Dark reaper squad (depends on the unit type that is causing your list the most issues. Looking more into that.
Breaking it down more the Guide+Fortune allows you to stack defences and keep a long term on foot far seer pretty relaxed in the back. Potentially this farseer can take the relic wings allowing him to fly around and abuse terrain to fall back to a less effective smite spam state due to lack of good guide targets. Though this guy doesn't really need any mobility as he can just live and die by the protection of the guided unit you bring. I also think if your going to use this, it's good to bring a unit who likes being forwarded to stave off deep strikers. Good candidates to me would be Dark reapers/ Scatt bikes.
Doom+execute. This guy works great even more so when escorted by your hemlocks and crimson hunters, and he is mounted on a bike. He wants to get close and use doom, which lends itself well to also executing stuff or casting smite. Casting execute on units where you can garentee or almost garentee killing a model (1 or 2 wounds a model) will do more than a smite, but if you can't do this smite will always be better. You're also close enough to doom things that might be far back behind enemy lines, and combos with the hemlock/crimson hunter escort who might want to reach back thier and take something out.
Guide+Doom our old bog standard. it's pretty good, but i feel the need to step up put yours line in disarray. Plus you can't guarantee good targets. Looking at many competitive list the best target you can get is a conscript squad which hardly feels worth the price of admission to begin with. The best targets are big expensive death stars, but i'd bank on going Fortune+guide in most competitive games. Simply due to lack of good targets for doom.
Bike or no bike?? I think while you don't always pick your powers when you make your list. You should go into making your list with a good idea of what powers you want to use. Bikes work well on farseers as late game they can force your opponent to kill your fliers, as a far seer can quite easily keep up with 2 or more fliers and stay well protected. This allows you to skate the sudden death rules a little bit force your opponent to bring your fliers down to win the game, or give up tabling all together. Warlocks can also do this, but the far seer can spam smite will running, and use execute/doom/guide as well. So any farseer won't feel bad on a bike as long as you have fly support, and even with out fly support a single far seer can go toe to toe with several time's his points if played well.
Warlocks on bikes is another question. Doubling the cost of the warlock feels bad, but some spells you want to get close. You're melee units want to get up thier and you will want to be thier to support them. Wave serpents provide a good house foot warlocks allowing them to keep up. A bike lock does ahve the advantage of surviving perils of the warm 2/3rds of the times. In general i would only take a bike lock if you were planning to run Protect/Enhance/Empower as these buffs you'll want to cast at least twice, and your melee units might be way up the map. While also to some extent you might want to cast the inverse of these powers on enemy units and the bike will help you find the range you need. Quicken is best used on a foot lock. Odds are you really only need it turn 1. While casting the negative version of a wartime morty or magnus might be good; it often won't come up a lot, and you'll be trying to cast a difficult spell up against potentially superior enemy psykers.
For both our psykers the bike does has one good use, and i think that's the late game eldar. I think if you have a well built list it's more than likely your warlocks, and farseers will remain alive. Even more so if they were on a bike. In these turn 3s/4s/5s hopping around and harassing with smites becomes a very viable tactic, and snacking objectives with your very mobile characters becomes powerful. This again is compounded if you have flier support as they can interfere with shots, and the more heros you keep alive the more you can dampen the even's ability to remove you off the table. I think any eldar list would do well to have a farseer on bike, and any decently melee focused eldar list should also contain a warlock on bike.
anywho blurb of thoughts on our psykers after two games i had today and yesterday where my farseer and warlocks pretty much single handedly won those games after both armies were widdle to near nothings, and mobility and target massaging were king.
Edit: one more wa4lock consideration is seer council. I don't have my book on hand but if memory serves this stratagem requires a far seer and a warlock. Both getting +1 on thier spells for the turn. This is another mod in the direction of the wa4lock over the spirit seer.
The best loadout is entirely dependent on army composition.
I think you are undervaluing doom. The fact that it works against any target makes it clear mvp. Dooming big tanks or monsters or titans will guarantee a lot of damage.
I personally run a doom/guide farseer with faulchus wings supporting shadow spectres as that can guide them and doom a deep target, then a second farseer with fortune and doom to support dark reapers/fire support. Second doom is important to me as I rate it high.
A problem I've had with Farseers is that there are only 3 powers that you really want to cast every turn, which means that (without Eldrad) you're paying 100 points for the third power. The new ones are merely fine, with Executioner probably being the best. There's a strong case for Eldrad on this basis alone. Fortune is probably the most skippable depending on your build -- you need a single most scary unit to make it great.
I don't think I'd ever take a Warlock Skyrunner. You take Warlocks for buff powers, and it's just not hard to be within 18" of your own units. If you're wanting to debuff, then just pay 130 more points to get everything else a Hemlock provides along with the debuff power.
I think Farseers can also generally get away with being on foot. They have 24" range on their good powers, Guide and Fortune are buffs, and you generally want to Doom something close to the front because it's best with your short-ranged weapons. There's probably a case for Doom/Executioner on a bike alongside Guide/Fortune on foot, since you can more easily pick targets for Executioner this way.
Kdash wrote: So, originally i was thinking Saim-Hann for my webway Spears, but, part of me now things Biel-Tan is the way to go..
You are thinking about stuff wrong. Biel-tan's stratagem gives you +2 to you're charge. Saim-Hann's give your spears +6 to thier charge, as it allows your advancing units to charge, and bikes always advance 6, so you get to go 6' closer before you make you're charge..
I think you missed his point in his first sentence. He is talking about deploying via the webway so there will not be any advance available to him....so that is moot.
I could use some thoughts on how to finish a list. I put it up in the army list section but it's also in a spoiler below. Essentially I have 160ish points to spend on something to fit into a mech list. Not enough for a unit in a transport so it needs to be something that can keep itself safe and is fast. Aspect Warriors would be preferred and a CC unit would nice. I'm actually finding it a tough choice between Shining Spears and Striking Scorpions lol.
Spoiler:
Biel-Tan Mech Eldar:
1 Battalion, 1 Spearhead and one Vanguard for 8cp.
Spiritseer- Warlord w/ rerolls tests trait and Quicken
Spiritseer- Reroll tests Relic and Enhance
Farseer- Doom and Guide
Warlock- Protect
Warlock- Empower
20 Guardian Defenders- Guardian Bomb from the Webway.
5x Dire Avengers + Exarch + 2x Catapult
5x Fire Dragons
- Wave Serpent + 3x Cannons + Vector Eng.
5x Dire Avengers + Exarch + 2x Catapult
5x Fire Dragons
- Wave Serpent + 3x Cannons + Vector Eng.
So, the list deploys as 6 Tanks, 3 Prisms and 3 Serpents containing the infantry and HQs, with Guardians waiting in the Webway.
Lot's of Psykers to buff stuff. There will always be something for them to do but buffing the hell out of the Guardian Bomb, and later the Banshees, is their main plan.
Now, the remaining points were originally for a unit of 10 Scorpions who work well with the list due to:
1- staying off the board so I'm only deploying 6 tanks.
2- being another unit that makes good use of buffs.
However, Scorpions are less than amazing and I have been considering two other options:
5x Shining Spears + Exarch W/ Star Lance
Pros: Awesome unit that is very killy and makes great use of Runes of Battle buffs.
Cons: Deploys on the board with a huge target on their back (they could go in the webway but that's at least 2cp + help getting a charge).
Or:
5x Swooping Hawks + 5x Warp Spiders
Pros: Stay off the board so I'm only deploying tanks. Great for grabbing objectives all over the board.
Cons: They don't do a fat lot else, just a little anti-infantry shooting.
Which of these is best? Is there a better alternative? I'm leaning towards a close combat unit to make the most of the Runes of Battle.
The spiders are big enough unit with 8 to tie up something in hth...yet tanky enough to be a survivable target.
I like MSU for the most part so I would still go Hawks and Spiders. At this point the spiders will die but they are the first wave to tie up something for your WS strike force.
I under value soon because of the meta. Right now thier arnt good target for doom. In all of the game room has amazing targets like knights and such. Doom is good when you hit a high value enemy unit that alot of your own units are going to shoot at. However if you look at all the top competive list. You will see a surprising lack of such targets. On top of that for some of our units this doom might only turn into reroll 1s depending on the target. On top of that getting into range is a rather serious consideration with only 24" at your disposal that one good target might be a stretch to doom. TLDR: doom is great, but meta targets are hard to find, and positioning to use it is counter intuitive.
As for the warlock skyrunner. Ywah i can see him being abit expensivw, but only ao much in comparison to his cheaper options. However the skyrunner' s power come in when combos with another warlock. Empower I'd argue is the 2nd best power for our eldar boys. Compared to other armies we have on average some pretty low strength weapons in melee +1 to would on shining spear model can be a 50% increase on melee damage against most tanks/monster. Empower becomes even better when you see it goes off on a 6. The problem being is often you want to quicken a unit and buff them with empower (and/or enhance). The thing is you usually want to quicken first as failing quicken means casting empower on a different unit is a better idea. However after quicken units can be as little as 7" or as much as 22" further away now. Meaning being in range is a real struggle. Woth the skyrunner lock. He can wait in a position where he knows he'll most likely be in range after quicken. Where the foot lock lacks this capability and most be positioned premptivingly. This problem is most evident when using shining spears.
Another consideration that I'll edit into my previous post because its very important. Warlocks vs spirit seer. The warlocks have access to one very powerful stratagem in the name of seer council. This stratagem is of our best. Which if you have the CP positions the lock as almost a q of auto include if you have any melee and a far seer in your list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I could use some thoughts on how to finish a list. I put it up in the army list section but it's also in a spoiler below. Essentially I have 160ish points to spend on something to fit into a mech list. Not enough for a unit in a transport so it needs to be something that can keep itself safe and is fast. Aspect Warriors would be preferred and a CC unit would nice. I'm actually finding it a tough choice between Shining Spears and Striking Scorpions lol.
Spoiler:
Biel-Tan Mech Eldar:
1 Battalion, 1 Spearhead and one Vanguard for 8cp.
Spiritseer- Warlord w/ rerolls tests trait and Quicken
Spiritseer- Reroll tests Relic and Enhance
Farseer- Doom and Guide
Warlock- Protect
Warlock- Empower
20 Guardian Defenders- Guardian Bomb from the Webway.
5x Dire Avengers + Exarch + 2x Catapult
5x Fire Dragons
- Wave Serpent + 3x Cannons + Vector Eng.
5x Dire Avengers + Exarch + 2x Catapult
5x Fire Dragons
- Wave Serpent + 3x Cannons + Vector Eng.
So, the list deploys as 6 Tanks, 3 Prisms and 3 Serpents containing the infantry and HQs, with Guardians waiting in the Webway.
Lot's of Psykers to buff stuff. There will always be something for them to do but buffing the hell out of the Guardian Bomb, and later the Banshees, is their main plan.
Now, the remaining points were originally for a unit of 10 Scorpions who work well with the list due to:
1- staying off the board so I'm only deploying 6 tanks.
2- being another unit that makes good use of buffs.
However, Scorpions are less than amazing and I have been considering two other options:
5x Shining Spears + Exarch W/ Star Lance
Pros: Awesome unit that is very killy and makes great use of Runes of Battle buffs.
Cons: Deploys on the board with a huge target on their back (they could go in the webway but that's at least 2cp + help getting a charge).
Or:
5x Swooping Hawks + 5x Warp Spiders
Pros: Stay off the board so I'm only deploying tanks. Great for grabbing objectives all over the board.
Cons: They don't do a fat lot else, just a little anti-infantry shooting.
Which of these is best? Is there a better alternative? I'm leaning towards a close combat unit to make the most of the Runes of Battle.
I'd go spears and drop a banshee for a unit of swooping hawks. Swooping hawks are a great part of eldar late game. Dropping turn 1 to camp an objectivr, and if not dealt with, leaving and coming back turn 3 to claim another objective when most of the models in the game are dead and deepstri king them in is easier.
As for the warlock skyrunner. Ywah i can see him being abit expensivw, but only ao much in comparison to his cheaper options. However the skyrunner' s power come in when combos with another warlock. Empower I'd argue is the 2nd best power for our eldar boys. Compared to other armies we have on average some pretty low strength weapons in melee +1 to would on shining spear model can be a 50% increase on melee damage against most tanks/monster. Empower becomes even better when you see it goes off on a 6. The problem being is often you want to quicken a unit and buff them with empower (and/or enhance). The thing is you usually want to quicken first as failing quicken means casting empower on a different unit is a better idea. However after quicken units can be as little as 7" or as much as 22" further away now. Meaning being in range is a real struggle. Woth the skyrunner lock. He can wait in a position where he knows he'll most likely be in range after quicken. Where the foot lock lacks this capability and most be positioned premptivingly. This problem is most evident when using shining spears.
I agree that Empower is one of the better powers in the warlock set, but I also see skyrunners are being more valuable overall – especially when working with lots of fast moving units.
For me, being able to continue to support the first turn charge units, after the first turn is pretty key and helps maintain enough early pressure in a game to sometimes swing it your way. I also think people under estimate the power of having 3 or 4 units that can easily move 22” around the table when needed. Even if it is just to claim an objective, dump 4 mortal wounds on a character or help secure you another ITC secondary point (if you’re playing an ITC game).
I also think, there are options available to us that would reduce the risk in leaving Quicken to last. One combo I’m very interested in testing is the Biel-tan relic and the Seer council stratagem to give me a 6+ re-rollable cast on Quicken. It also leaves the option open for a CP use if I roll something like a 4 and a 1 and don’t need to risk a full re-roll.
Thanks for the input. I'm a little surprised by the love for Spiders and Hawks but I think they might be the sensible choice. I'm thinking the Hawks drop on an objective turn 1 (playing maelstrom), while the Spiders wait till turn 2. The Hawks leave the board turn 2 if they lived and come back turn 3 for another objective. So that would grab me 3 objectives over 3 turns if all goes well.
I don't understand being down on Doom because there aren't good targets for it in the meta but then praising Empower which only affects a single attacking unit, only affects CC, and is almost always worse than if the unit's target had Doom cast on it instead.
I'd go spears and drop a banshee for a unit of swooping hawks. Swooping hawks are a great part of eldar late game. Dropping turn 1 to camp an objectivr, and if not dealt with, leaving and coming back turn 3 to claim another objective when most of the models in the game are dead and deepstri king them in is easier.
What about Shadow Spectres and Hawks? For 150 you can get 3 Shadow Spectres and a 6 man unit of Hawks including a Hawk's Talon. The Spectres can easily be hidden and have a nice 12" move and an inbuild -1 to hit, but, the risk of them getting destroyed is high due to them only being a 3 man unit. For 138 you can bump this up to 6 Spectres. They don't however, really fill much for a "cc" role though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dionysodorus wrote: I don't understand being down on Doom because there aren't good targets for it in the meta but then praising Empower which only affects a single attacking unit, only affects CC, and is almost always worse than if the unit's target had Doom cast on it instead.
I don’t get the “no meta targets for doom” argument either. I’d have no issue casting doom on a blob of infantry if I wanted to remove them, or a squad of something like devastators. Sure, it helps a lot more when targeting big things, but people always seem to forget that the little things win games more often than the big things.
I tend to avoid Forge World. People on here have been raving about Spectres for ages and my eye twitches whenever the discussion goes in their direction lol.
Doom is the best Eldar power IMO. I feel like if you do the maths it's going to come out on top of the others even in 1v1 situations. The fact that it can affect your whole army makes it way better.
Fast Attack:
(8) Warp Spiders
Exarch w/ 2x Spinners
[152]
(8) Warp Spiders
Exarch w/ 2x Spinners
[152]
[1246]
[1993]
Get it?! GET IT!? John Cena?! ...sorry.
Everything has an inherent -1 to-hit generally speaking (or a way to obtain it). This is meant to stack with Alaitoc trait to make the army -2 to-hit at 12". Yea, I blow 1CP on the Plume, but the idea of the -2 to-hit Autarch landing behind the Specters to help re-roll 1's made me chuckle. This eats up a lot of CP. Obviously, the Autarch Plume is optional, but was put in for the theme. To get the most deep strike / infiltrates I would need to deploy two Ranger units on the table (to meet the 50% requirement). That does mean Illic, 1x Rangers, 3x Warp Spiders, the Farseer and the Autarch all go in reserve. I can also opt to throw the Ranger squad and Illic on the table, given their ranged firepower, and Webway two of the Specter squads. The CHE stays outside 12" and tries to pop tanks. Hornets advance and CTM their guns against nearby juicy targets. This is the tough one - as they must engage the nearest enemy to be at -2 to-hit, so their positioning will be key.
Anyhow, just tinkering with the idea. I think this list would frustrate the crap out of people to play against. But I am not sure it has the tools to hold up in a competitive setting.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I tend to avoid Forge World. People on here have been raving about Spectres for ages and my eye twitches whenever the discussion goes in their direction lol.
Doom is the best Eldar power IMO. I feel like if you do the maths it's going to come out on top of the others even in 1v1 situations. The fact that it can affect your whole army makes it way better.
Yeah, forgeworld can be a little contentious at times, right up to causing people to explode in fury but i do like some of the models they do.
I keep toying with the idea of doing a Yme-Loc army based around a Scorpion, Lynx, Warp Hunters etc... but each time i try it i get to like 5 models and am suddenly left with like 150 points....
Fast Attack:
(8) Warp Spiders
Exarch w/ 2x Spinners
[152]
(8) Warp Spiders
Exarch w/ 2x Spinners
[152]
[1246]
[1993]
Get it?! GET IT!? John Cena?! ...sorry.
Everything has an inherent -1 to-hit generally speaking (or a way to obtain it). This is meant to stack with Alaitoc trait to make the army -2 to-hit at 12". Yea, I blow 1CP on the Plume, but the idea of the -2 to-hit Autarch landing behind the Specters to help re-roll 1's made me chuckle. This eats up a lot of CP. Obviously, the Autarch Plume is optional, but was put in for the theme. To get the most deep strike / infiltrates I would need to deploy two Ranger units on the table (to meet the 50% requirement). That does mean Illic, 1x Rangers, 3x Warp Spiders, the Farseer and the Autarch all go in reserve. I can also opt to throw the Ranger squad and Illic on the table, given their ranged firepower, and Webway two of the Specter squads. The CHE stays outside 12" and tries to pop tanks. Hornets advance and CTM their guns against nearby juicy targets. This is the tough one - as they must engage the nearest enemy to be at -2 to-hit, so their positioning will be key.
Anyhow, just tinkering with the idea. I think this list would frustrate the crap out of people to play against. But I am not sure it has the tools to hold up in a competitive setting.
Hard to play well, but, when it works it'll be absolutely hilarious to play (but maybe not for your opponent)... Next time you play them you'll see them with dozens of flamers
I think our Runes of Fate powers pretty much stack up like this:
1) Doom
2) Guide
3) Fortune
4) Executioner
That's my personal preference, and obviously I disagree with Doom being one of the weakest Fate powers. It is silly good. I have yet to have a unit survive being Doomed. And while it is easy to blow away a unit in a turn in 8th edition... what Doom does is minimize the effort put into removing the target. It also allows weaker units to engage things that they normally wouldn't waste the time on... like Guardians or Banshees taking on armor.
I think 2 Farseers is a pretty good selection. Eldrad is better than 1 Farseer, but being better than 2 is definitely a stretch. You get +1 power, +1 deny, an extra Farseer Runes for rerolls, and an extra body that doesn't take all your powers due to a botch in placement or a bad turn. With so many multi-HQ detachments, as well, it isn't like a Craftworld army will ever be taking a solitary HQ. So the second Farseer isn't exactly a 100 point tax for the "third power", if anything, it is more like a 70 point "tax", but the extra perks are mentioned above.
I've outlined this earlier in the thread, but I tend to run 2 Farseers, one with Guide and Fortune, the other with Doom and Executioner. That allows me to keep my buffs closer to the high value targets lurking towards the back of the field (Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, Wraithknights, etc.), and he can possibly stretch out to hit a buff on a unit towards the middle of the field in the case of Webway Guardians. The second Farseer usually closes on the enemy to supply a bit of mid-field support to my advance units. This allows Doom and Executioner to reach into the enemy lines, where it needs to be.
My experience with Eldar has been that the early game, those psychic powers really shine. Units are larger and the buffs/debuffs seem to be more prominent. Not getting the right buff in the right spot can lead to trouble a few turns later, due to sinking more strength into removing a threat or having a valuable asset weakened due to no support. They kind of get softer as the game goes on and battle fatigue starts setting into the army, but that's when powers like Executioner and Smite really can break a close game.
In my list, I personally rate executioner above guide. Again, simply because of my list.
Fortune > Doom > Executioner > Guide is my order of priority for the list I’ve created and the style I will run it in. Of course, this is probably massively different to most other lists and priorities though.
But I agree – a farseer with both doom and executioner is a mid-field monster. Add in the stratagem to cast smite as well, and you’re punishing units/characters severely.
Guide Ian probably the most situational.
With units like dark reapers, shadow spectres and guardians guide can be awesome. But otherwise it can be a bit flat.
Right now I've been running a farseer with guide and doom and he usually has faolchu's wing so he gets a poor mans jetbike. This ensures that DOOM is always in range, and also that GUIDE is always in range of my crimson hunter.
I run a bunch of units of 3 dark reapers to exploit the free exarch. I know that big units are a bit better for exploiting powers, but i like having little 3 man units running around with 1/3 of their shots rerolling 1's.
Remember guide is not what it used to be as a buff for some of your shooty units, due to the way modifiers stack on after re-rolls.
Guide for a large unit of Dark Reapers = good number of extra hits.
Guide for a Crimson Hunter - only actually re-rolling 1's so could be done by a cheap Autarch without needing to pass a psychic test.
Guide for a Crimson Hunter Exarch - Totally useless
So yes, totally dependant on your own list build as people have said. I for one have absolutely no need for it in mine, nearly everything significantly shooty already has some sort of re-roll to hit built in or sits next to the Autarch.
Spartacus wrote: Remember guide is not what it used to be as a buff for some of your shooty units, due to the way modifiers stack on after re-rolls.
Guide for a large unit of Dark Reapers = good number of extra hits.
Guide for a Crimson Hunter - only actually re-rolling 1's so could be done by a cheap Autarch without needing to pass a psychic test.
Guide for a Crimson Hunter Exarch - Totally useless
So yes, totally dependant on your own list build as people have said. I for one have absolutely no need for it in mine, nearly everything significantly shooty already has some sort of re-roll to hit built in or sits next to the Autarch.
It's more the DOOM that is used to great effect, but good points all around.
Guide for a Crimson Hunter - only actually re-rolling 1's so could be done by a cheap Autarch without needing to pass a psychic test.
Wow, I didn't even think of this. So if you roll a 2, it isn't technically a miss eligible for reroll, then you suffer the -1 for moving. Lame Makes the Exarch upgrade worth every point then. since either way you're only rerolling 1s.
Guide for a Crimson Hunter - only actually re-rolling 1's so could be done by a cheap Autarch without needing to pass a psychic test.
Wow, I didn't even think of this. So if you roll a 2, it isn't technically a miss eligible for reroll, then you suffer the -1 for moving. Lame
Makes the Exarch upgrade worth every point then. since either way you're only rerolling 1s.
-
Exactly. Same goes for many FW and other vehicles/fliers which hit on 2's, but will usually be moving for the -1 modifier. You're much better off going for a source of re-rolling 1's in the majority of cases.
A basic Autarch with Star Glaive is just 77 points which is pretty cheap, give him the Wing Relic so he can run around spreading his 6 inch buff to as many units as possible( ). On top of that you get CP's back on 6's and a decent bit of melee damage from him as well. The index is still a great option also if you're that way inclined.
Korlandril wrote: Anyone know why the Biel-tan strat is 2CP? It would be more useful if it was 1 as power wise it's in line with the other Craftworld specific ones. Easily the worst Craftworld specific just because it's 2CP and not 1 despite being so similar to the Saim-hann strat.
Everything involving the Avatar is ridiculously overpriced.
That's about all there is to it.
Yes, I'm bitter.
Not even considering the Avatar in that lol maybe if the regular version was what the Avatar gave it would be worth it.
I think the 3CP is more effective use of CP than the Biel-tan strat.
I ended up blowing 9 CP bringing The Avatar back 3 times in my last game. He was a pretty good sponge but he is far too fragile. He really should have a 2+/4+ like in the old days.
Used to be he would be protected from Dreadnoughts due to better initiative, usually wrecking them before they could attack, high WS meaning they would hit on 4+/5+. Would take about 40 attacks for them to take him down (if they got to attack). Nowadays if a Dreadnought gets a round against you The Avatar is probably going down hard.
Oh wow, what was the reasoning for using basically all your CP on the resurection strat? You must have had a better use for them surely. How did the game go?
Was 3k vs Alpha Legion and i had 13CP (and got another 4 via the Autarch recycle), my Avatar is my pride and joy and so i refused to let him die. He ended up getting beat down by a Relic Leviathan Dreadnought x2 and a Black Mace armed Dark Apostle. Brought him back to kill what took him down each time.
I was in a good position early on, stole initiative and one shotted his Storm Eagle with Death Star inside, obliterated a 10 man unit of possessed and crippled a few cultist units in turn 1. Weathered the storm with few casualties in return then the following turn had the Banshees open up on a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with re-roll hits (Ancient Doom), extra attack on 6 (Supreme Disdain), re-roll wounds (The Great Enemy) and +1 to wound (Empower) as well as making short work of some Warp Talons, Bikers and Cultists with the rest of my force. Given this and the large number of CP's i had at my disposal i was happy to play a bit risky with my Avatar and let him tank some hits for my more vulnerable Aspect Warriors.
Was 3k vs Alpha Legion and i had 13CP (and got another 4 via the Autarch recycle), my Avatar is my pride and joy and so i refused to let him die. He ended up getting beat down by a Relic Leviathan Dreadnought x2 and a Black Mace armed Dark Apostle. Brought him back to kill what took him down each time.
I was in a good position early on, stole initiative and one shotted his Storm Eagle with Death Star inside, obliterated a 10 man unit of possessed and crippled a few cultist units in turn 1. Weathered the storm with few casualties in return then the following turn had the Banshees open up on a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with re-roll hits (Ancient Doom), extra attack on 6 (Supreme Disdain), re-roll wounds (The Great Enemy) and +1 to wound (Empower) as well as making short work of some Warp Talons, Bikers and Cultists with the rest of my force. Given this and the large number of CP's i had at my disposal i was happy to play a bit risky with my Avatar and let him tank some hits for my more vulnerable Aspect Warriors.
Was 3k vs Alpha Legion and i had 13CP (and got another 4 via the Autarch recycle), my Avatar is my pride and joy and so i refused to let him die. He ended up getting beat down by a Relic Leviathan Dreadnought x2 and a Black Mace armed Dark Apostle. Brought him back to kill what took him down each time.
I was in a good position early on, stole initiative and one shotted his Storm Eagle with Death Star inside, obliterated a 10 man unit of possessed and crippled a few cultist units in turn 1. Weathered the storm with few casualties in return then the following turn had the Banshees open up on a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with re-roll hits (Ancient Doom), extra attack on 6 (Supreme Disdain), re-roll wounds (The Great Enemy) and +1 to wound (Empower) as well as making short work of some Warp Talons, Bikers and Cultists with the rest of my force. Given this and the large number of CP's i had at my disposal i was happy to play a bit risky with my Avatar and let him tank some hits for my more vulnerable Aspect Warriors.
Was 3k vs Alpha Legion and i had 13CP (and got another 4 via the Autarch recycle), my Avatar is my pride and joy and so i refused to let him die. He ended up getting beat down by a Relic Leviathan Dreadnought x2 and a Black Mace armed Dark Apostle. Brought him back to kill what took him down each time.
I was in a good position early on, stole initiative and one shotted his Storm Eagle with Death Star inside, obliterated a 10 man unit of possessed and crippled a few cultist units in turn 1. Weathered the storm with few casualties in return then the following turn had the Banshees open up on a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with re-roll hits (Ancient Doom), extra attack on 6 (Supreme Disdain), re-roll wounds (The Great Enemy) and +1 to wound (Empower) as well as making short work of some Warp Talons, Bikers and Cultists with the rest of my force. Given this and the large number of CP's i had at my disposal i was happy to play a bit risky with my Avatar and let him tank some hits for my more vulnerable Aspect Warriors.
Sounds like it was a great battle!
Couldn't possibly let this guy go down!
Oh no, those colours are my least favourite should have let it die
I was comparing the point cost and capabilities of a AM Shadowsword and a Heavy Wraithcannon Wraithknight and I was feeling utterly insulted by the superiority of the former, when something came to mind.
The Shadowsword, with it's single big fat cannon, can either destroy (or heavily damage) a LoW target or overkill a tank-level threat each turn. Whereas a HWC WK can concentrate its shots on a big target or split each weapon against two lighter target.
That flexibility may not seem like much, but it could explain part of the (excessively) hefty cost of the HWC WK.
Does it look a little less overpriced in this new light?
Okay, what about an army built around all six phoenix lords?
865 points for the six of them, so add support units, maybe Eldrad or the Avatar, some wave serpents for them to ride around in.
I know it's probably not competitive, but tactically viable or fun? Or just a one-sided slaughter?
I started thinking about this idea when I was looking for synergies and noticed that all the phoenix lords have the aspect warrior tag. So that means if they're within 6" of Asurmen, they get the 5++
Fuegan, Karandras, and Asurmen are by far the best phoenix lords. I could see a list semi-effectively use Fuegan, Asurmen and Karandras together with like 20 fire dragons, 20-30 dire avengers and 20 striking scorpions either deep striking or in serpents with a lot of warlock support. It would probably be best with the Biel-tan craftworld so you get lots of free re-rolls to hit and the warlord trait that is essentially a free guide for a unit of fire dragons. The fire dragons might actually survive a round of shooting with asurmen's save and the striking scorpions could pop up where ever needed and lay down a lot of attacks. Especially if you hit a squad with the enhance power to get exploding attacks on 5+. It would be hard to fit all of the 'buff' characters you need in the list like warlocks and an autarch for the scorpions
Helvost wrote: Fuegan, Karandras, and Asurmen are by far the best phoenix lords. I could see a list semi-effectively use Fuegan, Asurmen and Karandras together with like 20 fire dragons, 20-30 dire avengers and 20 striking scorpions either deep striking or in serpents with a lot of warlock support. It would probably be best with the Biel-tan craftworld so you get lots of free re-rolls to hit and the warlord trait that is essentially a free guide for a unit of fire dragons. The fire dragons might actually survive a round of shooting with asurmen's save and the striking scorpions could pop up where ever needed and lay down a lot of attacks. Especially if you hit a squad with the enhance power to get exploding attacks on 5+. It would be hard to fit all of the 'buff' characters you need in the list like warlocks and an autarch for the scorpions
Helvost wrote: Fuegan, Karandras, and Asurmen are by far the best phoenix lords. I could see a list semi-effectively use Fuegan, Asurmen and Karandras together with like 20 fire dragons, 20-30 dire avengers and 20 striking scorpions either deep striking or in serpents with a lot of warlock support. It would probably be best with the Biel-tan craftworld so you get lots of free re-rolls to hit and the warlord trait that is essentially a free guide for a unit of fire dragons. The fire dragons might actually survive a round of shooting with asurmen's save and the striking scorpions could pop up where ever needed and lay down a lot of attacks. Especially if you hit a squad with the enhance power to get exploding attacks on 5+. It would be hard to fit all of the 'buff' characters you need in the list like warlocks and an autarch for the scorpions
I also like this idea. I might scrape together some more scorpions and actually try this.
Any big changes that we should be scared of other than the psychic stuff?
I've some experience versus the new nids and have only one struggle in dealing with them...
Genestealers + Swarmlord can very easily get a charge off to my backline first turn, so I've found it very useful to bubble wrap my targets or mount them in transports to protect from assassination attempts (farseers etc). I've seen several games where a unit of genestealers pulls off a 30+ inch charge turn 1 to assassinate multiple characters. Other than that, Nids are not a major concern.
Any big changes that we should be scared of other than the psychic stuff?
I've some experience versus the new nids and have only one struggle in dealing with them...
Genestealers + Swarmlord can very easily get a charge off to my backline first turn, so I've found it very useful to bubble wrap my targets or mount them in transports to protect from assassination attempts (farseers etc). I've seen several games where a unit of genestealers pulls off a 30+ inch charge turn 1 to assassinate multiple characters. Other than that, Nids are not a major concern.
I agree, mount up or bubble-wrap your fragile stuff. Grav tanks can withdraw and shoot at full effect, as can Wraithguard so these units make excellent line-holders. Add some punch in the form of Dark Reapers and/or Fire Prisms and some shuricans from Avengers or Guardians for horde control and you are good to go. A bit of melee presence to stop your lines being overrun can be useful but in the main it is the guns that will do the heavy lifting against Nids. If you try to go toe-to-toe with Carnifexes using something like Wraithlords, you will be left with a lot of broken wraithbone and broken dreams.
Shadow in the Warp can make casting quite unreliable so don't rely on Guide alone, have a back-up source of rerolls such as Autarch and/or Linked Fire. 2 Prisms linking fire can reliably delete pretty much any big bug with one volley unless it has an invulnerable save (looking at naughty Mr Swarmlord here)
865 points for the six of them, so add support units, maybe Eldrad or the Avatar, some wave serpents for them to ride around in.
I know it's probably not competitive, but tactically viable or fun? Or just a one-sided slaughter?
I started thinking about this idea when I was looking for synergies and noticed that all the phoenix lords have the aspect warrior tag. So that means if they're within 6" of Asurmen, they get the 5++
While others have said Fuegan, Asurman and Karandras, i plan on building an army based around Karandras, Barrahoth and Maugan-Ra at some point - using them as a base for a "Path of the Eldar" themed army.
Essentially running them with 1 or 2 units of their Aspect max and then branching out into other units to provide the support and options while trying to keep it as close to the book series as possible - so farseers, rangers, maybe a Cobra in the odd game
There is also mention of banshees, guardians and wave serpents and the Avatar, but between it all and using the base 6 units i reckon you could get a reasonably competitive list out of the army theme!
After using the Phantasm stratagem for the first time I was reminded of how I used to use Eldrads redeploy power from previous editions with my mech Eldar. This will always be worth considering for anyone playing mech as 3 units can be half your army.
The current Mech list I'm working on has 4 Wave Serpents and 3 Fire Prisms, with 8CP to mess with.
They could be deployed like so:
W W..........................................................W W F................................F...................................F
Two Serpents and a Prism on each flank and the third Prsim in the middle. After determining who goes first and rolling to seize, the Phantasm Strategem can be used to redeploy one of the flanks to join the other:
W W W W F...............F.................F....................................
Or:
........................................................W W W W ....................................F...............F...............F
So you can deploy your whole army on one flank, but your opponent won't know which flank it is until after deployment. If you end up going second you can move everything to the side with the least anti-tank on. If you're going first you can stack up on the side you want to launch your attack from. Even if the opponent realizes what's going on it doesn't really help them. Proper deployment can be crucial for avoiding the enemies alpha strike or setting up your own, this strategy enables you to do that perfectly while preventing the enemy from doing the same.
Probably Alaitoc, all the infantry and HQs fit snugly into the Wave Serpents leaving 7 deployment drops.
EDIT: While this works well with mech lists due to the low number of drops, it could also be quite good in reserve heavy lists. If you have 6 units starting on the board and 6 in reserve you could:
-Deploy 3 units on each flank -Phantasm either group of 3 to join the other flank -Bring 6 reserves in on the same flank
I don't know why GW limited the use of SfD in the opponent's turn. I think that the nerf of not being able to use the same action for soulburst twice in the same turn was enough of a limitation. Now the only good use of the Word of the Phoenix power is on double-shooting dark reapers that stay in the back of your deployment zone.
There's going to be a lot more lists that are craftworld focused with a little ynnari rather than most of the competitive lists being Ynnari with a little bit of craftworlds.
I don't know why GW limited the use of SfD in the opponent's turn. I think that the nerf of not being able to use the same action for soulburst twice in the same turn was enough of a limitation. Now the only good use of the Word of the Phoenix power is on double-shooting dark reapers that stay in the back of your deployment zone.
There's going to be a lot more lists that are craftworld focused with a little ynnari rather than most of the competitive lists being Ynnari with a little bit of craftworlds.
Spartacus
Post 2017/11/16 18:30:19 Subject: Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!
Shadenuat wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ Press 40k.
Wrap your Triumvirate box in tape and mail to GW, demand a refund.
Holy hell that is groundbreaking. Was Ynnari really so powerful that they had to demolish it completely? I'm gonna flat out say no.
For all those who haven't seen it, this is in the new Xenos 1 FAQ, see page 2:
Damn... either one of those conditions would have been a massive nerf, to be hammered with both is just astounding.
Pretty salty ay. Ynnari was not dominating n the tournament scene. Just made my Harlequin part of my army a waste of time and money. In fact my whole army was built around Ynnari (I only started playing with 8th edition) and now I'm back to the drawing board.
On the brightside, if anyone has looked at the FAQ concerning what data sheet to use between codex and index, you can now bring an autarch from the codex with path of command and kit him out with wargear from the Index!
Think it's simply to make Craftworld more appealing, though they could at least remove the must have a Ynarri Warlord requirement. Don't think any other armies MUST have a specific warlord.
Page 2 - gives a flow chart for using datasheets from the index if your codex is missing wargear options.
States quite clearly (as far as I can see), that you can take any of the codex datasheet entries for say, an Autarch, but then apply the weapon options that were available in the index, at the points costs from the codex.
Edit: Helvost beat me to it
Pretty sweet buff for the Autarch, I'll be glad to bring him again - and no change to the 'Target Characters' Warlord trait. I now have no moral issues bringing a Reaper Sniper to the table
hat the hell!? SfD really only makes sense working in your opponent's turn.
Not exactly, it works if you kill an enemy unit in your turn.
States quite clearly (as far as I can see), that you can take any of the codex datasheet entries for say, an Autarch, but then apply the weapon options that were available in the index, at the points costs from the codex.
Yeah, but what about warp spider jump pack, it's out regardless?
Pretty salty ay. Ynnari was not dominating n the tournament scene. Just made my Harlequin part of my army a waste of time and money. In fact my whole army was built around Ynnari (I only started playing with 8th edition) and now I'm back to the drawing board.
Yea I'm pretty upset/salty as well (''); (''); (''); . I literally just bought the triumverate, it's still in the cellophane, but atleast they are cool looking models.
Harlequins are still a great addition to a craftworlds army though. There's still a lot of synergy there with how fast both armies are. Plus harlequin troupes fill out the troops section so you can use them to help maximize the command points you get for all those nice craftworlds stratagems.
hat the hell!? SfD really only makes sense working in your opponent's turn.
Not exactly, it works if you kill an enemy unit in your turn.
States quite clearly (as far as I can see), that you can take any of the codex datasheet entries for say, an Autarch, but then apply the weapon options that were available in the index, at the points costs from the codex.
Yeah, but what about warp spider jump pack, it's out regardless?
You would have to bring the Index datasheet for the warp jump generator autarch I believe so you would lose path of command :(
Mr. Funktastic wrote: For Alaitoc, what's generally the better troop choice, Rangers or Dire Avengers?
Depends what you want to achieve really. Rangers are a good screening unit (because of infiltrate) and far more durable, especially with Alaitoc. But IMO they are pretty toothless i.e. have poor offensive capability. This is where Dire Avengers rock.
If you're just taking cheap 5 man squads to fill your troop slots, go mostly rangers or maybe a mix of each. If you're taking big squads to do some damage, Dire Avengers or Guardians.
Harlequins are still a great addition to a Craftworlds army though. There's still a lot of synergy there with how fast both armies are. Plus harlequin troupes fill out the troops section so you can use them to help maximize the command points you get for all those nice craftworlds stratagems.
Yeah but now I'd have to take 3 squads of them.
At least Craftworld is a viable option to play. I just liked the Ynnari they felt like a duct tape army.
You would have to bring the Index datasheet for the warp jump generator autarch I believe so you would lose path of command :(
But muh faq says use CODEX datasheet, but wargear options from INDEX, but CODEX rules...
Yea but since the WJG autarch is a data entry and not listed as a piece of wargear, you would have to start with the data entry in the index in order to get it
Mr. Funktastic wrote: For Alaitoc, what's generally the better troop choice, Rangers or Dire Avengers?
Depends what you want to achieve really. Rangers are a good screening unit (because of infiltrate) and far more durable, especially with Alaitoc. But IMO they are pretty toothless i.e. have poor offensive capability. This is where Dire Avengers rock.
If you're just taking cheap 5 man squads to fill your troop slots, go mostly rangers or maybe a mix of each. If you're taking big squads to do some damage, Dire Avengers or Guardians.
I agree with you on Rangers being more durable being -2 to hit most of the time and having a 3+ save in cover. Generally with my troops I'd like them to sit on back field objectives and hold the line. However against assault armies like Tyranids I can see DAs being more useful and way more dangerous in shooting, plus with an Exarch they have a 4++ and a bit of CC capability with a Dire Sword/Power Glaive. They're also better against deep strikers as they hit on 5+ on overwatch.
Maybe 2 DAs and 1 Ranger squad would work well? Gives some flexibility plus DAs have nicer plastic kits while Rangers are stuck with resin.
I don't know why GW limited the use of SfD in the opponent's turn. I think that the nerf of not being able to use the same action for soulburst twice in the same turn was enough of a limitation. Now the only good use of the Word of the Phoenix power is on double-shooting dark reapers that stay in the back of your deployment zone.
There's going to be a lot more lists that are craftworld focused with a little ynnari rather than most of the competitive lists being Ynnari with a little bit of craftworlds.
Spartacus
Post 2017/11/16 18:30:19 Subject: Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!
Shadenuat wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ Press 40k.
Wrap your Triumvirate box in tape and mail to GW, demand a refund.
Holy hell that is groundbreaking. Was Ynnari really so powerful that they had to demolish it completely? I'm gonna flat out say no.
For all those who haven't seen it, this is in the new Xenos 1 FAQ, see page 2:
Damn... either one of those conditions would have been a massive nerf, to be hammered with both is just astounding.
Pretty salty ay. Ynnari was not dominating n the tournament scene. Just made my Harlequin part of my army a waste of time and money. In fact my whole army was built around Ynnari (I only started playing with 8th edition) and now I'm back to the drawing board.
It was potentially the most broken rule in the game. Just much harder to utilize in 8th eddtion compared to 7th. I think when the Ynnari get a dex of their own - it will be sorted out. As is there is no reason to take it over battle focus. You might see people still doing the reaper soulburst trick with a ynnari detachment. You still are able to do that.
Pretty salty ay. Ynnari was not dominating n the tournament scene. Just made my Harlequin part of my army a waste of time and money. In fact my whole army was built around Ynnari (I only started playing with 8th edition) and now I'm back to the drawing board.
It was potentially the most broken rule in the game. Just much harder to utilize in 8th eddtion compared to 7th. I think when the Ynnari get a dex of their own - it will be sorted out. As is there is no reason to take it over battle focus. You might see people still doing the reaper soulburst trick with a ynnari detachment. You still are able to do that.
It was fairly broken, but now the reapers using word of the phoenix is the only competitive use of the Strength from death rule. Fire Dragons might be able to capitalize on SfD as well as the reapers in some cases :/
All in all they hit them a little too hard with the nerf bat. On the bright side, I am interested to see what people come up with for the new set of competitive craftworlds lists. I can definitely see harlequins being included in these new lists to compliment the speed of craftworlds. You could use quicken and the double-move harlequin power to get more hard hitting units in your opponents face
Shadenuat wrote: So the fact that Autarches & Hemlock are "equipped" with their stuff... do we pay for it or what?
Yes. The argument previously was that the soulstones and forceshield were listed as an ability rather than wargear so you didn't have to purchase them. Now they're clearly equipment and you have to play the points.
Shadenuat wrote: So the fact that Autarches & Hemlock are "equipped" with their stuff... do we pay for it or what?
Yes. The argument previously was that the soulstones and forceshield were listed as an ability rather than wargear so you didn't have to purchase them. Now they're clearly equipment and you have to play the points.
Just this, should GW adressed properly like this the 1st time everything should been easier since day first.
It also means our Autarchs got 6 points more expensive, but the possiblity of a Reaper launcher on foot one, make me giggle.
Lord Perversor wrote: It also means our Autarchs got 6 points more expensive, but the possiblity of a Reaper launcher on foot one, make me giggle.
Or better yet, use a Skyrunner Autarch which has "Peerless Agility" instead of a Force Shield and give him a Reaper Launcher for only 22pts. That's a nice even 130pt model that can do pretty much any task.
Anyone think eldar will make it into a top 10 list now Ynnari isn't worth taking?
Im not overly concerned by it as I'm sticking with craftworld now the codex is out, but I am a little disappointed by the apparent lack of diversity in competitive lists. Just seems a bit dull to see guard/marines and chaos all the time.
Ynnari is still good and extra shooting phase or charge phase on a turn is still very nice. It's just toned down so thier is a reason to play craftworld eldar, and so I can enjoy my saim-hann shining spears with out being heckled lol.
I agree the extra shots or charge from one unit is still good. It your also giving up all the craftworld attributes for a much reduced soul burst. Really don't see the point in taking them any more, but that could be down to my lack of experience.
Just don't see eldar being that competitive, despite the new codex, and it a shame as I'd like to see different armies winning (I didn't want to see Ynnari win all the time either)
Ynnari were middling at best in the last (only) competitive 8th Ed event I've been to, and recent results I've seen say the same thing. From a high power competitive standpoint, this is a massive over-reaction to a problem that doesn't really exist.
From a casual gaming perspective, SfD probably did need a tone down as it is easily exploitable by most list builds, especially now that Dark Reapers can be spammed cheaply. Perhaps the 'one action per type per turn' is justified from that point of view, but to stack that on top of losing the effect totally in your opponents turn just seems ludicrous to me.
Anyway, happy I didn't sink any money into a Triumvirate now...
Just don't see eldar being that competitive, despite the new codex, and it a shame as I'd like to see different armies winning (I didn't want to see Ynnari win all the time either)
No see now this is where I think people being too human. Just because ynnari which were obviously bonkers when combined with the now 20-50% cheaper craftworld eldar got nerfed. Doesnt mean the super cheap eldar woth stratagem and free buffs isn't still good.
Shining spears are really good woth alot of evasion optuons. We have the best two fliers in the game. Forearm of a crimson hunter is really really dumb. 2+ to hit (you don't move on the enemy turn) refilling 1s bright lances and pulse laser will ace any tank or fat character that tries to deep strike. While scatter bikes in units of 9 will ices MEQ and GEQ squads. Basicly, eldar can be deep strikes on.
Our big melee units can be buffed to obsurd levels and woth quicken these buffs can be applied out side of deny range and then boosted into charge range.
I don't know why GW limited the use of SfD in the opponent's turn. I think that the nerf of not being able to use the same action for soulburst twice in the same turn was enough of a limitation. Now the only good use of the Word of the Phoenix power is on double-shooting dark reapers that stay in the back of your deployment zone.
There's going to be a lot more lists that are craftworld focused with a little ynnari rather than most of the competitive lists being Ynnari with a little bit of craftworlds.
Spartacus
Post 2017/11/16 18:30:19 Subject: Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!
Shadenuat wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ Press 40k.
Wrap your Triumvirate box in tape and mail to GW, demand a refund.
Holy hell that is groundbreaking. Was Ynnari really so powerful that they had to demolish it completely? I'm gonna flat out say no.
For all those who haven't seen it, this is in the new Xenos 1 FAQ, see page 2:
Damn... either one of those conditions would have been a massive nerf, to be hammered with both is just astounding.
Pretty salty ay. Ynnari was not dominating n the tournament scene. Just made my Harlequin part of my army a waste of time and money. In fact my whole army was built around Ynnari (I only started playing with 8th edition) and now I'm back to the drawing board.
Bye bye Ynnari! That's the last nail in the coffin. Yvraine will be Eldrad (or a Farseer), the Yncarne will be the Avatar of Khaine and my Harlequins will be Banshees.
I had already toyed with the idea, but now that SfD is half as useful I think Battle Focus, Warlord Traits, Relics and Craftworld traits outweight its loss (Word of the Phoenix only gets you so far).
I may even save points!
I hope people will be understanding with the count-as. I will try to make it very clear beforehand.
Agree with the above point. Let's hope that once all the codex's are out it becomes a more balanced gaming experience at all levels, for all players. Seems like GW are in a spin at the moment adjusting lots of things at once, but they are reacting to community feedback, which is good.
I already have the Triumvirate :( probably just keep it and wait for the Ynnari codex. Ynnari are still new in relative terms so teething problems are expected.
Spartacus wrote: Ynnari were middling at best in the last (only) competitive 8th Ed event I've been to, and recent results I've seen say the same thing. From a high power competitive standpoint, this is a massive over-reaction to a problem that doesn't really exist.
What?? Did you see the socal open results?? All the ynnari list that were brought did better than 50% and one of them made 3rd place...
Ynnari just got a super buff in the form of craft world eldar by having massive cost reductions accross the board and giving ynari access to craftworld stratagem. This nerd compensates for CW and the coming DE books coming out.
Spartacus wrote: Ynnari were middling at best in the last (only) competitive 8th Ed event I've been to, and recent results I've seen say the same thing. From a high power competitive standpoint, this is a massive over-reaction to a problem that doesn't really exist.
What?? Did you see the socal open results?? All the ynnari list that were brought did better than 50% and one of them made 3rd place...
Ynnari just got a super buff in the form of craft world eldar by having massive cost reductions accross the board and giving ynari access to craftworld stratagem. This nerd compensates for CW and the coming DE books coming out.
Nah I didnt look at the Socal results yet. Okay so maybe they got a boost?
I stand by my point though. Id wager that if this FAQ was in force, you would not see a 3rd place Ynnari or many Ynnari lists above 50%, or many lists at all in fact. Competitive Ynnari is dead until we see a codex most likely.
I have to imagine that Strength from Death will get a complete reworking when the Ynnari codex comes out. As angry as I am about the overnerfing it sounds like GW suddenly realized that 8th edition 40K is not designed to handle out-of-turn activations from a balance standpoint and is putting this out as a bandaid until they figure out what they want SfD to do.
Spartacus wrote: Ynnari were middling at best in the last (only) competitive 8th Ed event I've been to, and recent results I've seen say the same thing. From a high power competitive standpoint, this is a massive over-reaction to a problem that doesn't really exist.
What?? Did you see the socal open results?? All the ynnari list that were brought did better than 50% and one of them made 3rd place...
Ynnari just got a super buff in the form of craft world eldar by having massive cost reductions accross the board and giving ynari access to craftworld stratagem. This nerd compensates for CW and the coming DE books coming out.
Nah I didnt look at the Socal results yet. Okay so maybe they got a boost?
I stand by my point though. Id wager that if this FAQ was in force, you would not see a 3rd place Ynnari or many Ynnari lists above 50%, or many lists at all in fact. Competitive Ynnari is dead until we see a codex most likely.
Well so the socal open was just before the eldar book dropped. .
So technically ynnari was buffed since then thanks to all the eldar buffs and stratagems. That ynnari can still uae. Now they are getting nerfed because when DE gets thier points adjusted in the chapter approved book coming out. Ynnari will once again get a buff, and even more so if the same happens to hatliquins. So I wouldn't qorry.
Well so the socal open was just before the eldar book dropped. .
So technically ynnari was buffed since then thanks to all the eldar buffs and stratagems. That ynnari can still uae. Now they are getting nerfed because when DE gets thier points adjusted in the chapter approved book coming out. Ynnari will once again get a buff, and even more so if the same happens to hatliquins. So I wouldn't qorry.
I consider this the TRUTH!!! Ynnari is fundamentally a hard faction to balance, because everytime Craftworld, Deldar or Clowns gets rebalanced the changes propagates onto Ynnari with strange and unfathomable consequences. Like a dog pissing in the river melting the polar icecaps.
Well so the socal open was just before the eldar book dropped. .
So technically ynnari was buffed since then thanks to all the eldar buffs and stratagems. That ynnari can still uae. Now they are getting nerfed because when DE gets thier points adjusted in the chapter approved book coming out. Ynnari will once again get a buff, and even more so if the same happens to hatliquins. So I wouldn't qorry.
I consider this the TRUTH!!! Ynnari is fundamentally a hard faction to balance, because everytime Craftworld, Deldar or Clowns gets rebalanced the changes propagates onto Ynnari with strange and unfathomable consequences. Like a dog pissing in the river melting the polar icecaps.
Yeah i agree. Ynnari in my opinion would be best suited by 2 changes:
1. If they only had access to troops, unnamed Has, and dedicated transports. That way the other armies can keep thier flavor, but ynnari still has a lot of nice diversity. While these base units tend to be the primary benefactors in ynnari anyway.
2. Change are from death to a blood turn style system. Where units friend or foe who die within x" of your HQ give them some kind of psykic power boost that allows them to basicly bank soul burst' s power level, but delays it for only things done on your own turn. Thus way opponents habe the power to counter you efforts, and encourages the ynnari player to skillfully deploy thier units.
In the wake of the (much needed, IMO, Ynnari always struck me as a very poorly designed faction), I think a lot of people missed the big change to Fire Prisms. The double-tap now only works if you shoot at the same unit as the original shot. Managing for overkill isn't massive, but you'll have to be more careful with them to get the most efficiency with your Prisms now.
Niiru wrote: Didn't Starcannons get changed from 2 Damage to D3 damage? The codex seems to have put them back to 2 Damage again?
English codex wargear index pg. 111 shows starcannon and twin starcannon at d3 dmg.
Crimson Hunter Exarch entry pg. 107 also shows d3 dmg.
Wave Serpent entry pg 106 shows d3 dmg for twin starcannon
Wraithknight entry pg 109 shows d3 dmg for starcannon
That is every entry pertaining to the starcannon I could find in a brief scan of the English language codex. Where in the codex did you see them being 2 damage?
Fafnir wrote: In the wake of the (much needed, IMO, Ynnari always struck me as a very poorly designed faction), I think a lot of people missed the big change to Fire Prisms. The double-tap now only works if you shoot at the same unit as the original shot. Managing for overkill isn't massive, but you'll have to be more careful with them to get the most efficiency with your Prisms now.
This is already how it worked. The change made it clear that you could still do it if the Fire Prism were stationary.
Whatever, I'm just happy I got half of what I wanted from the Avatar (well, a 50-75 point reduction also wouldn't be out of order, but I'll take what I can get).
1. If they only had access to troops, unnamed Has, and dedicated transports. That way the other armies can keep thier flavor, but ynnari still has a lot of nice diversity. While these base units tend to be the primary benefactors in ynnari anyway.
.
Yeah because frail, fast infantry with Shuriken weapons and fast, frail infantry with poison weapons are sooo diverse. Only Troupes would bring some variation.
The real flavor of CWE is in Aspect Warriors and Wraiths. As happens with Dark Eldar and their more colorful units in elites, fast and heavy. Take that away from Ynnari, and you would need to release at least 4 new kits to make them work as an interesting faction.
pessa wrote: I've never used an Avatar, but have one on the painting table looking at me.
With Falcon's Swiftness are people of the view he will be quick enough now?
Him not keeping up seems to be the major gripe I'm hearing ...
I'll definitely be taking Swiftness on him from here on out. 2" might not be huge, but every little bit helps in closing the gap and getting stuck in with the targets you want (and avoiding those you don't).
He's still a bit slow to hunt the big game that he's built to actually go after, but at the very least, it should make him harder to completely ignore. Being able to advance and charge would help him a lot (which is something GW would be more likely to give than letting him be affected by Eldar buffs, because... reasons).
Fate's Messenger and Incomparable Hunter could be potentially worth taking depending on the matchup. If your opponent is going to spend the bulk of their time coming to you, it might be preferable to take one of those instead.
So, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Ynnari won’t disappear completely -rather they will change.
I think, going forward, we won’t see anymore “pure” Ynnari armies, rather we will see small, allied detachments built with the aim of maximising certain soulburst actions.
For example, we’ll likely see Yvarine with 10 Dark Reapers still, but prob then alongside a couple of fast, hard hitting combat units that can happily take advantage of a double move, or fighting twice.
Overall, I think that style of setup is a lot better for everyone, rather than, take dozens of min squads and just continually shoot over and over again with half of them.
Ynnari still have a place in Craftworld armies I feel. Some units, like Fire Dragons, don't gain a huge buff from any Craftworld traits. An Alaitoc Wave Serpent delivering Ynnari Dragons who get to shoot twice if they blow up their first target seems good.
Yvraine's ability to provide free, accessible Soul Burst to backline artillery is a top tier ability.
The Yncarne is still a hellishly powerful beatstick with some really tricky and scary mobility options, solid healing ability and 6+++ aura that synergizes with his faction's schtick, and the ability to capitalize hard on SfD up close. And unlike the Avatar of Khaine, the Yncarne can be supported by his own faction's buffs, allowing you to really commit to his potency. Oh, and he's a psyker. So Smite.
The Visarch is alright as a beatstick. There are definitely better characters out there, and he probably won't make his way into most competitive lists, but he's certainly not bad.
All of the Ynnari characters are still very playable and potent, and absolutely not worth writing off yet. There's still plenty to abuse there, it's just not as free as before.
Yvraine using WotP on a back field unit like Reapers is not an easy choice. You get 132pts less Reapers but also lose access to the Alaitoc trait which is very good for them.
I'm liking the idea of a Ynnari Vanguard detatchment of close range elite choices mounted in Alaitoc Serpents. Fire Dragons getting to shoot twice, Banshees fighting twice (with all the Runes of battle buffs) and maybe some wriathguard to benefit from either moving or shooting twice.
But fighting twice can be very hard to pull off, though it depends a bit on rules interpretations.
If you can Soulburst and choose to fight whether or not there's an enemy unit within 1", as seems to be RAW, then it's a fairly powerful ability. You have to be within 4" of an enemy unit to get much out of it, but you can Soulburst in the Shooting Phase and then choose to fight to pile in and attack something. And then you can charge and/or fight again later in the turn.
But if you can only Soulburst and fight if you're within 1" or already charged that turn, then you're only going to get something out of this in your Fight Phase, after already charging. The unit that triggers the Soulburst has to die in the Fight Phase and then you need another target (which you also charged) to be close enough to get to.
Kdash wrote:So, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Ynnari won’t disappear completely -rather they will change.
I think, going forward, we won’t see anymore “pure” Ynnari armies, rather we will see small, allied detachments built with the aim of maximising certain soulburst actions.
For example, we’ll likely see Yvarine with 10 Dark Reapers still, but prob then alongside a couple of fast, hard hitting combat units that can happily take advantage of a double move, or fighting twice.
Overall, I think that style of setup is a lot better for everyone, rather than, take dozens of min squads and just continually shoot over and over again with half of them.
Being forced to have Yvraine as your Warlord comes with a heavy tax. It doesn't appear very worth it to have just one ir a few units bennefiting from It.
Fafnir wrote:Yvraine's ability to provide free, accessible Soul Burst to backline artillery is a top tier ability.
The Yncarne is still a hellishly powerful beatstick with some really tricky and scary mobility options, solid healing ability and 6+++ aura that synergizes with his faction's schtick, and the ability to capitalize hard on SfD up close. And unlike the Avatar of Khaine, the Yncarne can be supported by his own faction's buffs, allowing you to really commit to his potency. Oh, and he's a psyker. So Smite.
The Visarch is alright as a beatstick. There are definitely better characters out there, and he probably won't make his way into most competitive lists, but he's certainly not bad.
All of the Ynnari characters are still very playable and potent, and absolutely not worth writing off yet. There's still plenty to abuse there, it's just not as free as before.
Yvraine is very good but taking her comes with a big tax.
The Yncarne is good but very expensive and the summon mechanism is quite clunky. Plus, an Ynnari psyker is usually enough with just 3 powers (one being quite bad)
The Visarch is so poor he brings nothing over a Phoenix Lord.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Yvraine using WotP on a back field unit like Reapers is not an easy choice. You get 132pts less Reapers but also lose access to the Alaitoc trait which is very good for them.
Yeah, you also lose access to interesting warlord traits and relics
Kdash wrote: So, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Ynnari won’t disappear completely -rather they will change.
I think, going forward, we won’t see anymore “pure” Ynnari armies, rather we will see small, allied detachments built with the aim of maximising certain soulburst actions.
For example, we’ll likely see Yvarine with 10 Dark Reapers still, but prob then alongside a couple of fast, hard hitting combat units that can happily take advantage of a double move, or fighting twice.
Overall, I think that style of setup is a lot better for everyone, rather than, take dozens of min squads and just continually shoot over and over again with half of them.
A Patrol Detachment with Yvraine, squad of Harlies, and a squad of Dark Reapers could still have a place in an army. They still need to have a Craftworld designation, so things like the Forewarned strategem can still be ueed.
Taking a patrol detachment is kind of costing you the CP you would get from a different detachment, which has to be added to the other costs like warlord traits and relics.
Ultimately they've managed to make an army redundant. Yes you can take a small detachment, to make use of soul burst on a small scale, but as for a whole 'fluffy' or competitive force, they just aren't viable any more.
Fred the Farseer wrote: Ultimately they've managed to make an army redundant. Yes you can take a small detachment, to make use of soul burst on a small scale, but as for a whole 'fluffy' or competitive force, they just aren't viable any more.
Given the major nerfing, they should have undone the mandatory Warlord requirement at least.
I'm mulling over whether or not I would want to include Ynnari in my lists and what the costs of doing so would be. Below is a list I posted earlier in the thread (left) and the Ynnari-ized version (right). Both lists are Alaitoc with the second having a Ynnari Vanguard detatchment.
Fire Prism.....................................................................Fire Prism Fire Prism.....................................................................Fire Prism Fire Prism.....................................................................Fire Prism
So the main difference is that the Serpents are 15pts cheaper each to pay for Yvraines fancy ass. Also dropped 1 Fire Dragon. The Warlord Trait is no great loss as Yvraine is a better Psyker than the Spiritseer she replaces, and no relics were jumping out at me.
I think the first list is more reliable with the Vectored Engine Serpents, but the cost isn't so great that I'd feel awful taking the second for some SfD fun.
The biggest shift in Ynnari is moving away from MSU. your own stuff dieing will typically happen on your opponents turn, so that is not something you want to build a list around.
A ynnari list that i am looking at myself...
Yncarne
3x 10 shining spears
this is the core. provides shooty and assault threat.
Supported by a craftworld detachment...
warlock skyrunners to buff the spears
fire prisms, hemlocks for support
How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....
If it is the skyrunner.. i think the laser lance is auto take. Unless of course you are taking one of the relic options. HOwever the saim hann skyrunner with laser lance and relic upgrade is a very good CC unit.
Fred the Farseer wrote: Ultimately they've managed to make an army redundant. Yes you can take a small detachment, to make use of soul burst on a small scale, but as for a whole 'fluffy' or competitive force, they just aren't viable any more.
Given the major nerfing, they should have undone the mandatory Warlord requirement at least.
I agree with you both. The pendulum has made a full swing from a very powerful, no brainer Ynnari to the irrelevance for Matched play.
I hope they will become a real army in the near future, right now they are little more than fancy count-as material.
How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....
Pre-codex I was using my converted Autarch with Laser Lance, Fusion Gun and Banshee mask. That still seems great, especially as Saim Hann.
Fusion Gun + Saim Hann Relic Lance + Sniper Warlord Trait could be fun.
The pendulum has made a full swing from a very powerful, no brainer Ynnari to the irrelevance for Matched play.
The pendulum seems to be swinging from one version of hyperbole to another. Before the FAQ Ynnari would only be one part of your army, after the FAQ they are a bit less likely to be part of your army.
How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....
Considering that you can equip him with the Reaper launcher (as it is an option in the Index), yes, I'd go with Laser lance instead of the Fusion gun. That way you get an HQ that can sit back and shoot for a turn or two, then burst forward and charge if needed.
Which unit do you guys generally prefer, Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks? I feel like while the Hawks have weight of dice on their side in dealing with infantry and potential for mortal wounds every turn, Warp Spiders have more mobility and durability and their guns can handle higher toughness targets better, plus they look way cooler.
How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....
It's got to be, right? A Skyrunner already wants to be within 12" to shoot his twin catapult and he gets 4 might-as-well-be-autohitting attacks in CC, and he can't be Overwatched.
The fusion gun, avenger catapult, and deathspinner strike me as the only other real options. I feel like a reaper launcher is not very appealing. You only hit on a 3+ with it so you're only slightly better than a regular Reaper, and you can just get a whole regular Reaper for 5 points more than the launcher. You don't benefit from a lasblaster's range and while it's slightly better against GEQs it's worse against everything else. Obviously you're not taking a power sword or chainsword. The catapult and deathspinner are very similar, with the catapult probably winning out due to its lower price. The fusion gun is very strong but very expensive, and you might not have a great target for it early on.
You can actually make a Skyrunner Autarch pretty beefy. This is the upside of not having any very good warlord traits and relics, I guess. He starts off as W6 3+/4++. You can take a trait to give him +1W and a 6+ FNP. Then you can take the shimmerplume or phoenix gem. With the shimmerplume and that trait it takes on average as many hitting-on-3+ attacks to kill him as if he had 11.2 wounds.
How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....
It's got to be, right? A Skyrunner already wants to be within 12" to shoot his twin catapult and he gets 4 might-as-well-be-autohitting attacks in CC, and he can't be Overwatched.
The fusion gun, avenger catapult, and deathspinner strike me as the only other real options. I feel like a reaper launcher is not very appealing. You only hit on a 3+ with it so you're only slightly better than a regular Reaper, and you can just get a whole regular Reaper for 5 points more than the launcher. You don't benefit from a lasblaster's range and while it's slightly better against GEQs it's worse against everything else. Obviously you're not taking a power sword or chainsword. The catapult and deathspinner are very similar, with the catapult probably winning out due to its lower price. The fusion gun is very strong but very expensive, and you might not have a great target for it early on.
You can actually make a Skyrunner Autarch pretty beefy. This is the upside of not having any very good warlord traits and relics, I guess. He starts off as W6 3+/4++. You can take a trait to give him +1W and a 6+ FNP. Then you can take the shimmerplume or phoenix gem. With the shimmerplume and that trait it takes on average as many hitting-on-3+ attacks to kill him as if he had 11.2 wounds.
On the other hand a normal Dark Reaper can't potentially snipe characters. At times that option could be worth its weight in gold.
I don't rate the sniper trait that highly on a Skyrunner. With only the reaper launcher you expect to force 1 save for 2 damage on T3 or T4. A 60 point Ranger squad expects similar results vs typical characters. You can get in close to use other guns but at that point CC is likely an option and your shooting is less important. A reaper launcher and the sniper trait seem like a reasonable default choice on an Autarch whose job is to babysit a gunline though.
The 12" range on the Fusion Gun, Saim Hann relic lance and twin cats is enough to shoot over screens to get at characters, and they pack a nastier punch that any other sniper option. The Autarch can move 22" and hit on 2s rerolled at 12" with all 4 guns. That is a much better threat range than the 16 +2d6 he would get charging a character (which would only be possible if said character was unscreened anyway).
I don't agree with the overall rhetoric regarding Ynnari being totally lost at this point. I think most of it is going to come down to how you value the WL traits and relics (personally not highly) as well as evaluating what units benefit more from Battle Focus and <Craftworld> versus which units benefit more from SfD. For example I'm a fan of D-Scythe wraithguard and I far prefer being able to shoot twice with that unit over battle focus (irrelevant) and the <Craftworld> trait. I also don't find much if any value in the available CWE troops selection, they either require a large investment in powers and stratagems or otherwise under perform.
I don't necessarily agree with the nerf but I certainly don't agree with the idea that somehow the army is dead. Granted I was running a non typical Ynnari list with less focus on mass soul burst and more focus on concentrated soul bursting but for my list I don't see making much of a change at all sans changing the detachment my Shadow Spectres find themselves in.
It seems like Ynnari have been relegated to a support detachment rather than an army. You take them for an exclusive, focused purpose and then use generalist CWE for the rest.
Niiru wrote: Didn't Starcannons get changed from 2 Damage to D3 damage? The codex seems to have put them back to 2 Damage again?
English codex wargear index pg. 111 shows starcannon and twin starcannon at d3 dmg.
Crimson Hunter Exarch entry pg. 107 also shows d3 dmg.
Wave Serpent entry pg 106 shows d3 dmg for twin starcannon
Wraithknight entry pg 109 shows d3 dmg for starcannon
That is every entry pertaining to the starcannon I could find in a brief scan of the English language codex. Where in the codex did you see them being 2 damage?
Ignore me, I'm just stupid when I'm tired. I was reading the "Heavy 2" part not the Damage part.
Grizzyzz wrote: The biggest shift in Ynnari is moving away from MSU. your own stuff dieing will typically happen on your opponents turn, so that is not something you want to build a list around.
A ynnari list that i am looking at myself...
Yncarne
3x 10 shining spears
this is the core. provides shooty and assault threat.
Supported by a craftworld detachment...
warlock skyrunners to buff the spears
fire prisms, hemlocks for support
How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....
If it is the skyrunner.. i think the laser lance is auto take. Unless of course you are taking one of the relic options. HOwever the saim hann skyrunner with laser lance and relic upgrade is a very good CC unit.
Honestly have messed with it ynnari shining spears are meh. With limited laser lance shots and damage split between catapults, lances, and melee its hard to get a great soul burst. Fight phase wise your only gonna get one good fight of you have a big squad of 10, and if you double fight yout going to struggle to have any good targets.
Shooting wise the lances have a 6" range and you just killed something that is right next to you so what are you just gonna shoot your data puts at something else. 9 twin catapults at the end of the day is just 18 storm guardians. So it's nothing super special. With the ynari need I'd rather keep my bikes saim-hann so I can always reroll my charges and make sure they make it into combat when ever I need them too. Failing a charge is the worst.
Some one said something about putting outta snipe autarch with fusion, lance, and on a bike. That sounds cool, but I wonder if saim-hann warlord trait with sain-hann lance biker wouldnt be better. Getting 5 attacks at str8 -4ap 2damage (6 doing 4) vs 1 str8 -4ap d6 damage, 1 str6 -4ap 2damage (6s do 4), 4 str 4 0ap (-3 on 6s) 1damage. Though i guess getting the charge off might be harder, but you can get up to +3" to your "charge" as you can always like into character, and withbgly you can surf off an enemy infantry unit.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: For Alaitoc, what's generally the better troop choice, Rangers or Dire Avengers?
While Rangers probably get more benefit from the Trait, I think that Dire Avengers are a better all-round unit. A 10-man squad shooting at a Doomed target can cause tremendous damage.
My regular list has 1 squad of Rangers and 2 of Avengers. You can take more Rangers if you like but I find their damage output too low to be reliable as a main battle unit. In my last game, they caused no wounds at all although they were guarding an objective which meant the enemy had to devote considerable effort to removing them. The Avengers on the other hand killed a Mawloc and then a Carnifex without taking significant damage.
Just to ensure I am understanding the rules change, hoping someone can chime in here, I still have to keep a Ynnari HQ as my Warlord even if I only take a small unit of Ynnari?
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Just to ensure I am understanding the rules change, hoping someone can chime in here, I still have to keep a Ynnari HQ as my Warlord even if I only take a small unit of Ynnari?
That's correct - if you want access to Ynnari and SfD you'll need a Ynnari character as your Warlord.
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Just to ensure I am understanding the rules change, hoping someone can chime in here, I still have to keep a Ynnari HQ as my Warlord even if I only take a small unit of Ynnari?
Yes. So in order to get the most out of Ynnari, you need 1 of 3 specific HQs, 1 Shooting unit, 1 Melee unit and you must give up access to any CWE Warlord traits or relics to get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn. At that rate, you may as well just take a second unit of either the Shooting or Melee unit you chose and keep all the CWE goodness.
Ynnari is dead as an army. The only good use for them is Yvraine + 10 Reapers. My biggest beef with this is that particular combo was the main offender of abusing Soulburst. So instead of discouraging that particular combo with this change, GW decided to neuter whole armies of Ynnari and actually ENCOURAGE the combo that made people complain in the first place. Top Banana
Ynnari is dead as an army. The only good use for them is Yvraine + 10 Reapers. My biggest beef with this is that particular combo was the main offender of abusing Soulburst.
So instead of discouraging that particular combo with this change, GW decided to neuter whole armies of Ynnari and actually ENCOURAGE the combo that made people complain in the first place.
Top Banana
-
I really disagree with this statement - Yvraine + D-Scythes is also a solid set up. As is using Soul Burst + Quicken for extra movement netting a triple move in a single turn. I mean I guess it could be the end of 'pure' Ynnari without a CWE detachment to get access to stratagems but using Ynnari as the basis of a portion of an army strategy is still entirely valuable. I've played 2 games since yesterday's FAQ with only one small tweak (moving one unit from the Ynnari detachment to a supreme command) and I've still fared very well.
I totally agree that ynarie is maybe a little dead at the moment, but i think its for the best?
CW needs it's place to shine. Even mroe so DE and Harliquins if they get codexs also need some room to grow and glow. Ynarie where it was would ahve seen those codexs turn into supplements for ynarie for everything outside of casual play.
As i said before ynarie needs to be given a niche carved out of the other three, and limit so they can be powerful and feel like flavors of all three. WIth out also feeling like they do what the others do, but just waaay better.
As before i think the all troop idea is neat. Each troop while not mazing stand out can do thier own thing pretty well. Melee from harliquin troops in quick transports. MObile fire platforms in the form of kabalite warrios in raiders, and really strong fire support from wave serepents, and access to scouts from good ol craftworld. Everything wanting to be in soul burst range also helps them take advantage of that attriubute.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<
As before i think the all troop idea is neat. Each troop while not mazing stand out can do thier own thing pretty well. Melee from harliquin troops in quick transports. MObile fire platforms in the form of kabalite warrios in raiders, and really strong fire support from wave serepents, and access to scouts from good ol craftworld. Everything wanting to be in soul burst range also helps them take advantage of that attriubute.
I stand my case: CWE flavor is outside troops. Guardians are bland, Dire Avengers are shootier Guardians. Only Rangers are a bit special.
The "only troops" Ynnari would need exclusive elite, fast and heavy slots. It could be cool if GW came with inspired designs and rules for them.
Well, it will be long before we know
mmimzie wrote: One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<
You use the Codex rules for Wargear, if they exist (even if the option to buy it comes from an Index entry). This is good news as the Codex Banshee mask is definitely better than the Index one for a lone wolf like the Biketarch.
mmimzie wrote: One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<
You use the Codex rules for Wargear, if they exist (even if the option to buy it comes from an Index entry). This is good news as the Codex Banshee mask is definitely better than the Index one for a lone wolf like the Biketarch.
yes that's true, but i don't see anywhere in the codex where the banshee's mask has rules of it's own that is not appart of some other models war scroll.
As before i think the all troop idea is neat. Each troop while not mazing stand out can do thier own thing pretty well. Melee from harliquin troops in quick transports. MObile fire platforms in the form of kabalite warrios in raiders, and really strong fire support from wave serepents, and access to scouts from good ol craftworld. Everything wanting to be in soul burst range also helps them take advantage of that attriubute.
I stand my case: CWE flavor is outside troops. Guardians are bland, Dire Avengers are shootier Guardians. Only Rangers are a bit special.
The "only troops" Ynnari would need exclusive elite, fast and heavy slots. It could be cool if GW came with inspired designs and rules for them.
Well, it will be long before we know
lol your definitly right it would be a long, but you'd still ahve access to all the HQ who are also pretty good. Then you'd have access to tyhe transports which are also quite varied. with just those you'd have more stuff than harliquins have now even if you excluded named characters.
mmimzie wrote: One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<
You use the Codex rules for Wargear, if they exist (even if the option to buy it comes from an Index entry). This is good news as the Codex Banshee mask is definitely better than the Index one for a lone wolf like the Biketarch.
yes that's true, but i don't see anywhere in the codex where the banshee's mask has rules of it's own that is not appart of some other models war scroll.
This is a little unclear in the general case but the Autarch is actually used as an example in the new Commentary and they outright say that the codex contains rules for all of the Autarch's wargear right after mentioning taking one with a Banshee Mask.
Here's a weird thing: the Commentary only says to use the index's "wargear options". Does this include the base wargear or no? If I want to take a foot Autarch with twin avenger catapults, does he also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield, or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? Presumably the latter, right? Since one of the wargear options is to exchange a shuriken pistol for a fusion pistol, and the whole point of this is not to make people's models illegal. But then if he doesn't have a star glaive and does have a shuriken pistol, does he have a forceshield? They just errata'd this for the codex version but not the index. Though since you're using the codex datasheet otherwise I guess he'd have the ability called "forceshield" either way.
mmimzie wrote: One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<
You use the Codex rules for Wargear, if they exist (even if the option to buy it comes from an Index entry). This is good news as the Codex Banshee mask is definitely better than the Index one for a lone wolf like the Biketarch.
yes that's true, but i don't see anywhere in the codex where the banshee's mask has rules of it's own that is not appart of some other models war scroll.
This is a little unclear in the general case but the Autarch is actually used as an example in the new Commentary and they outright say that the codex contains rules for all of the Autarch's wargear right after mentioning taking one with a Banshee Mask.
Here's a weird thing: the Commentary only says to use the index's "wargear options". Does this include the base wargear or no? If I want to take a foot Autarch with twin avenger catapults, does he also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield, or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? Presumably the latter, right? Since one of the wargear options is to exchange a shuriken pistol for a fusion pistol, and the whole point of this is not to make people's models illegal. But then if he doesn't have a star glaive and does have a shuriken pistol, does he have a forceshield? They just errata'd this for the codex version but not the index. Though since you're using the codex datasheet otherwise I guess he'd have the ability called "forceshield" either way.
yeah seems confusing as heck lol
Banshee mask yeah i guess it could be reasonable to assume it's the new one?? not sure there. bleh lol.
Either way if you can give him the banshee mask. Taking a biker saim-hann autarch with either saim-hann warlord trait or Swiftness, saim-hann lance, and a fusion pistol seems pretty awesome. The Saim-hann warlord trait lets you send him to go find and nuke enemy characters that might be key to an army, or the swiftness lets you get an extra 2inch's toward eating over watch for something like a shining spear squad with your awesome banshee mask.
mmimzie wrote: One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<
You use the Codex rules for Wargear, if they exist (even if the option to buy it comes from an Index entry). This is good news as the Codex Banshee mask is definitely better than the Index one for a lone wolf like the Biketarch.
yes that's true, but i don't see anywhere in the codex where the banshee's mask has rules of it's own that is not appart of some other models war scroll.
This is a little unclear in the general case but the Autarch is actually used as an example in the new Commentary and they outright say that the codex contains rules for all of the Autarch's wargear right after mentioning taking one with a Banshee Mask.
Here's a weird thing: the Commentary only says to use the index's "wargear options". Does this include the base wargear or no? If I want to take a foot Autarch with twin avenger catapults, does he also have a star glaive, plasma grenades, and a forceshield, or does he instead have a shuriken pistol and sunburst grenades? Presumably the latter, right? Since one of the wargear options is to exchange a shuriken pistol for a fusion pistol, and the whole point of this is not to make people's models illegal. But then if he doesn't have a star glaive and does have a shuriken pistol, does he have a forceshield? They just errata'd this for the codex version but not the index. Though since you're using the codex datasheet otherwise I guess he'd have the ability called "forceshield" either way.
The guide says use Index options for Wargear but rules from codex if such weapon has newer ones.
So Index Autarch come with stock power weapon and shuriken pistol, and can't get access to the Star glaive as example.
The guide says use Index options for Wargear but rules from codex if such weapon has newer ones.
So Index Autarch come with stock power weapon and shuriken pistol, and can't get access to the Star glaive as example.
To clarify: what makes this confusing is that many datasheets have a section which is literally called "wargear options". You're saying that in addition to using the "wargear options" from the index, we should also use the default wargear from the index, but the Commentary doesn't say this unless you take it as meaning "wargear options" as something other than the section which is named exactly that.
So I have been using Alaitoc on my Warp Spiders and have found that most of the time the enemy avoids it due to range.
Any other good choices for WS?
As much as I like the WildRider trait for vypers and heavy weapons....it seems silly that the slower Alaitoc vehicles in my army are harder to hit than the lithe vypers are.
oh the Autarch Skyrunner is a hth monster with the NovaLance.
I had an army made for IG and one for Nids. Neither of my pals were able to play so a marine player jumped in to play.
Then I forgot to bring my WJ Autarch so I just decided to use my nid force....He had a mostly mech list withsometimes 2 or even 3 FNP rolls.
I had so few anti tank weapons and he cleared most of my reapers off b4 I got a turn. We played 4 hours called it a draw and only had like 4 turns done. Great game....still up in the air and could have gone either way. First time my Fire Dragons did 3 rounds of shooting, never lost a model and still did not pay for themselves!!!
The Storm Guardian bomb worked great cept I had no targets except a dread. Still wounded it like 15 times but all those FNP rolls of Warlord and Iron Hands meant that was the worst unit for them to charge, but they had no other target.
The kicker was when I got the 'revenge' game card after my warlock warlord skyrunner died. I had so many 5+ rolls that were rending it became sick how my models were damaging stuff. Empower and other buffing to wound will be a thing this edition once we can figure stacking it out
If I need to throw in a couple points I wont take a viper but rather a warwalker.
As much as I like Dire Avengers MSUs I'm coming to realize they are a pretty bad tax. I have yet to wipe any unit out with them.
admironheart wrote: So I have been using Alaitoc on my Warp Spiders and have found that most of the time the enemy avoids it due to range.
Any other good choices for WS?
As much as I like the WildRider trait for vypers and heavy weapons....it seems silly that the slower Alaitoc vehicles in my army are harder to hit than the lithe vypers are.
I guess the question is what are the warp spiders being used for. For instances for one of my list the warp spides are for hero protection for a reserve heavy list. providing only air craft and warp spiders as primary targets before you get to the juice character center.
As for cypers i think i'd only bring them in a heavily mechanized force. Otherwise the vypers vulnerability to las cannons and the like becomes very distinct. However, in a mech heavy list you start taxing you opponent anti big stuff, and vypers aren't all that good of a target. Mainly due to the first las cannon shot feeling good but the second and third shots feel a bit like a waste when you compare to the work you can do against a larger vehicle. in my opinion scatter bikes are great or take a crimson hunter if your looking for bright lances over the vypers, who tend to be alittle to middling in all the catagories.
Army durability wise our top contenders are
Non-mech:
Warp Spiders (these guys are on top of the heap and if you don't upgrade the exarch they are some of the toughest models in the game in a a alaitoc detachment.)
Spectres
Rangers
Mechanized
Wave serpent (great takes that -1 damage really hamper most anti vehicle weapons)
Both the fliers (they are both about the same durability, but obviously the -1 to hit is nice stuff)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
admironheart wrote: oh the Autarch Skyrunner is a hth monster with the NovaLance.
As much as I like Dire Avengers MSUs I'm coming to realize they are a pretty bad tax. I have yet to wipe any unit out with them.
They are abit limiting with range. I prefer the rangers for thier ability just to live all game and sit on objectives. While providing the occational long range mortal wound.
Edit i also agree with the nova lance autarch that guy is nuts!!! Even more so now that you can give him a fusion gun as well.
Yeah, Spiders basically do what Rangers do, except in a linebreaker capacity. Don't expect them to do much damage. You use them for their bodies, not their guns.
I have to say, my favorite HQ is an Autarch Skyrunner w/ Lance, Reaper Launcher and Banshee mask.
The "Wild rider chieftain" Autarch was always my favorite, being my first ever Eldar HQ.
I really think this version is the best its ever been.
He is cheap enough to sit back and support backfield units with reroll 1s and plink shots with his Launcher. Yet he can also position himself to lead assaults if needed.
Really an all around good HQ. I love it.
So if your unit WAS not in a vehicle and shoots with the Fire and Fade stratagem can you embark into a vehicle?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If So drop a nice unit in with WebWay Portal for 1 cp then fire and fade into a souped up Wave Serpent. That unit has a pretty good chance of getting to attack again next turn if you did your drops and terrain properly.
admironheart wrote: So I have been using Alaitoc on my Warp Spiders and have found that most of the time the enemy avoids it due to range.
Any other good choices for WS?
As much as I like the WildRider trait for vypers and heavy weapons....it seems silly that the slower Alaitoc vehicles in my army are harder to hit than the lithe vypers are.
I feel like Alaitoc Spiders can work, you just need to be liberal with using Fire and Fade to get back into cover beyond 12 inches. Use Flickerjump and suddenly now they're -2 to hit with a 2+ armor save.
I've been playing with the idea of Alaitoc Spiders as well and I feel like while they do a very solid job mulching infantry due to the amount of quality shots they can put out (definitely take a large squad size, they need the bodies and amount of shots to force armor saves), I think what they really want to do is to use their deep striking and fantastic mobility/durability to go around the map and shoot off enemy Troop units from objectives and take them. They get to play the objective game while your other units shoot the opponent off the board, play them smart and I think they have a lot of potential to cause a lot of disruption and force tough choices on your opponent.
They are abit limiting with range. I prefer the rangers for thier ability just to live all game and sit on objectives.
I ask this a lot when I see this, maybe you'll have the answer I understand.
But objectives? In all the games of 8th edition I've seen or participate in, there's only been one game where someone wasn't wiped out. And I'm not talking about 7 turn nailbiters where someone finally gets the last hold out. Turn 4 is about as far as things go. Heck, in my game today, it only went 2.
What are you doing differently where objectives matter in any way?
They are abit limiting with range. I prefer the rangers for thier ability just to live all game and sit on objectives.
I ask this a lot when I see this, maybe you'll have the answer I understand.
But objectives? In all the games of 8th edition I've seen or participate in, there's only been one game where someone wasn't wiped out. And I'm not talking about 7 turn nailbiters where someone finally gets the last hold out. Turn 4 is about as far as things go. Heck, in my game today, it only went 2.
What are you doing differently where objectives matter in any way?
i definitly agree with you. Though alot of the tournament list are gears toward survival rather than anihilation right now. Brimstones/Concripts are signs of just trying to be hardy. Even the poxwalkers work toward this goal. So more games than normal i feel in tournament play get down to surivival.
In this same vein i pretty specifically said 2 things in a very specific order "Live all game and sit on objectives" ranger in this way are kind of our concripts. Using the rangers to scout allows your army to become more durable in a few ways. For one the natural -1 to hit is rather nice, but on top of that the deep strike denial is pretty big. Through this objectives can become revelent where we try to give eldar the same sort of staying power the chaos and AM have.
admironheart wrote: So if your unit WAS not in a vehicle and shoots with the Fire and Fade stratagem can you embark into a vehicle?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If So drop a nice unit in with WebWay Portal for 1 cp then fire and fade into a souped up Wave Serpent. That unit has a pretty good chance of getting to attack again next turn if you did your drops and terrain properly.
cool thanks....I think I may save a lot of CPs if I go that way and just take more Wave Serpents.
Question: my last game took forever since I had a Guardian army. My playstyle was always a lot of grunts from 2nd ed on. My 3rd ed elder would run 60+ models and my Imperial PDF had 104.
In Chess I traded Queen for Queen, trade my Bishop for your Knight and then tie up the rooks....Now I have a good use of my pawns can hit every square with my Knight and your bishop can only affect half the squares....putting me in significant advantage especially if the big piece Queen is your primary weapon. I play 40K with the same tactical mindsets.
So with all the dice and all the rerolls to hit and to wound it takes forever to play a game and you will never finish a round in a tournament to completion.
So what should I do to fill my need for horde style play and still have a fast game? Is there a compromise?
admironheart wrote: cool thanks....I think I may save a lot of CPs if I go that way and just take more Wave Serpents.
Question: my last game took forever since I had a Guardian army. My playstyle was always a lot of grunts from 2nd ed on. My 3rd ed elder would run 60+ models and my Imperial PDF had 104.
In Chess I traded Queen for Queen, trade my Bishop for your Knight and then tie up the rooks....Now I have a good use of my pawns can hit every square with my Knight and your bishop can only affect half the squares....putting me in significant advantage especially if the big piece Queen is your primary weapon. I play 40K with the same tactical mindsets.
So with all the dice and all the rerolls to hit and to wound it takes forever to play a game and you will never finish a round in a tournament to completion.
So what should I do to fill my need for horde style play and still have a fast game? Is there a compromise?
Honestly an all asp3ct warrior force would be some what on the horde side. Ev2n more so if you stick to infantry.
admironheart wrote: cool thanks....I think I may save a lot of CPs if I go that way and just take more Wave Serpents.
Question: my last game took forever since I had a Guardian army. My playstyle was always a lot of grunts from 2nd ed on. My 3rd ed elder would run 60+ models and my Imperial PDF had 104.
In Chess I traded Queen for Queen, trade my Bishop for your Knight and then tie up the rooks....Now I have a good use of my pawns can hit every square with my Knight and your bishop can only affect half the squares....putting me in significant advantage especially if the big piece Queen is your primary weapon. I play 40K with the same tactical mindsets.
So with all the dice and all the rerolls to hit and to wound it takes forever to play a game and you will never finish a round in a tournament to completion.
So what should I do to fill my need for horde style play and still have a fast game? Is there a compromise?
Not trying to be snide, but develop ways to play faster. There are a lot of ways to shave time from your turn.
Batching dice together.
Rolling your oponent`s dice for saving throws.
Use the cards, especially for stratefems.
Keep models on something so you can take the entire unit over to place from the Webway.
Notes on a single page for unit and weapon stats.
Play the same list multiple times prior to tourneys to understand your army better and will require less game decision making.
Movement trays.
Just some ideas. Play the style you like as that is how you enjoy the army. I have played Guardian themed armies since 3rd edition and these are all items that help me. 7th Edition was the most challenging edition to finish tourney games, but it was doable.
Do people generally have good experiences with Shadow Spectres? I'm looking for a unit to deepstrike, then zip around delivering knockout blows to enemy infantry, like 7th Ed Warpspiders used to be. At the moment I'm trying to find a reason not to order a bunch of them (aside from the fact my bank balance is poor).
On paper they look fantastic. Mobile, tough, especially with Alaitoc, and killy vs everything short of big vehicles. Re rolls to hit are particularly tasty thanks to all those extra hits. I usually bring plenty of anti-tank so thats not a problem. Re rolls to hit are particularly tasty thanks to all those extra hits, or just use the heavy flamers for some mass carnage.
Their points cost isn't that cheap considering they are still T3 1W models, but considering how they synergize so well with the various psychic powers, stratagems etc...
Spartacus wrote: Do people generally have good experiences with Shadow Spectres? I'm looking for a unit to deepstrike, then zip around delivering knockout blows to enemy infantry, like 7th Ed Warpspiders used to be. At the moment I'm trying to find a reason not to order a bunch of them (aside from the fact my bank balance is poor).
On paper they look fantastic. Mobile, tough, especially with Alaitoc, and killy vs everything short of big vehicles. Re rolls to hit are particularly tasty thanks to all those extra hits. I usually bring plenty of anti-tank so thats not a problem. Re rolls to hit are particularly tasty thanks to all those extra hits, or just use the heavy flamers for some mass carnage.
Their points cost isn't that cheap considering they are still T3 1W models, but considering how they synergize so well with the various psychic powers, stratagems etc...
I thought the general consensus among folks was they are a go-to Alaitoc unit, if you are in a FW friendly environment. They are fragile, but the -2 to-hit, mobility and firepower seem to make up for it.
I thought the general consensus among folks was they are a go-to Alaitoc unit, if you are in a FW friendly environment. They are fragile, but the -2 to-hit, mobility and firepower seem to make up for it.
I recall some discussion in this thread just after the codex was released, basically echoed by my post. Now that we've had it for a few weeks to make use of them I wondered if peoples opinions/experiences had changed, anecdotes, tips n' tricks etc.
Help me justify spending all this $$$ to myself
Edit: Also whats the verdict on the exarch? +5 points for an extra wound essentially? The gun options both look inferior to the stock one and I assume with Alaitoc you don't often wanna be close enough to make use of the morale check thing.
I thought the general consensus among folks was they are a go-to Alaitoc unit, if you are in a FW friendly environment. They are fragile, but the -2 to-hit, mobility and firepower seem to make up for it.
I recall some discussion in this thread just after the codex was released, basically echoed by my post. Now that we've had it for a few weeks to make use of them I wondered if peoples opinions/experiences had changed, anecdotes, tips n' tricks etc.
Help me justify spending all this $$$ to myself
They're a go to unit for me. I rarely play a game without between 8-10. They just answer a lot of problems - they're tremendously effective answers to any of the T6 vehicles and really into the T7+ range if that target is doomed. They also really enjoy guide with the crazy extra hit generation it nets them. And to top that all off the fact that they are each equipped with essentially a heavy flamer means they do very well keeping the lines clear and aren't terribly afraid of most charges. When I'm building a list they're on the first units I add and with the advent of the webway stratagem it makes it even easier to protect them from first turn shooting while inserting them in the best possible position.
They're a go to unit for me. I rarely play a game without between 8-10. They just answer a lot of problems - they're tremendously effective answers to any of the T6 vehicles and really into the T7+ range if that target is doomed. They also really enjoy guide with the crazy extra hit generation it nets them. And to top that all off the fact that they are each equipped with essentially a heavy flamer means they do very well keeping the lines clear and aren't terribly afraid of most charges. When I'm building a list they're on the first units I add and with the advent of the webway stratagem it makes it even easier to protect them from first turn shooting while inserting them in the best possible position.
Cheers for that! The other thing I noticed while reading about them today is that they are Jet Pack infantry. Wave Serpents are unable to transport Jump Pack Infantry but it says nothing about jet packs. This could be another alternative way to keep them safe if for example you use the cloudstrike stratagem (like I often do).
Taking a look at the Exarch again, the Haywire gun might actually be ok with its longer range and ability to strip the odd few wounds off vehicles. Maybe for a larger unit where just another Prism rifle would probably end up as overkill??
Spectres are almost mandatory for a competitive eldar list. They are our best anti horde option and their Str 6 is great too. Very difficult unit to deal with. Alaitoc is definitely great for them but they are fine without. Dropping them out of webway is fine but they don’t really need it.
Cheers for that! The other thing I noticed while reading about them today is that they are Jet Pack infantry. Wave Serpents are unable to transport Jump Pack Infantry but it says nothing about jet packs. This could be another alternative way to keep them safe if for example you use the cloudstrike stratagem (like I often do).
xmbk wrote: Spectres are great. Versatile, and definitely not fragile. They do great with an Autarch escort. Don't see how Spears would be better against hordes.
Forewarned, the models are tricky to put together. Better be good with your green stuff. Poorly molded, too.
Spears have a set 4 shots each on the twin cats and 1 laser lance shot. So they have an average higher volume of shots then spectres at 6" and even if not in lance range at 12". They can then charge their target to inflict more damage.
For 8pts over a spectre a spear brings more movement, +1 T, +1 W, 4++ against shooting, the ability to deal damage in combat, consistent volume of firepower. Spectres are still very good but the points drop on spears has made spears a contender for the role that spectres perform.
xmbk wrote: Spectres also have heavy flamers, 4 Spectres for the price of 3 Spears. Both are good, Spectres have higher damage output v hordes, though.
Using your 4 spectres to 3 spears comparison...
Spears:
4.0 wounds from Twin Shuriken Catapult
1.67 wounds from Laser Lance shooting
3.33 wounds from Laser Lance melee on the charge
2.00 wounds from Laser lance melee without charge
Total: 9 dead GEQ on the charge, 7.67 if you don't factor in the charge bonus
Spectres:
1.67 wounds from Coherent Prism Rifle
5.83 wounds from Diffused Prism rifle
2.78 wounds from melee
Total: 8.61 including melee
Now granted that doesn't factor in the bonus from hitting on 6s with the prism rifle, but I don't see that overtaking the Diffused version.
Twin Shuriken is only 3.5 (12*2/3*2/3*2/3).
Diffused is 7.8 (14*2/3*5/6)
Also, I would just compare shooting. Don't really want to charge with either unit into a horde. The diffused fire is a much bigger deterrent to counter charges.
Again, they are both good, but I'll take Spectres v hordes.
xmbk wrote: Spectres also have heavy flamers, 4 Spectres for the price of 3 Spears. Both are good, Spectres have higher damage output v hordes, though.
Using your 4 spectres to 3 spears comparison...
Spears:
4.0 wounds from Twin Shuriken Catapult
1.67 wounds from Laser Lance shooting
3.33 wounds from Laser Lance melee on the charge
2.00 wounds from Laser lance melee without charge
Total: 9 dead GEQ on the charge, 7.67 if you don't factor in the charge bonus
Spectres:
1.67 wounds from Coherent Prism Rifle
5.83 wounds from Diffused Prism rifle
2.78 wounds from melee
Total: 8.61 including melee
Now granted that doesn't factor in the bonus from hitting on 6s with the prism rifle, but I don't see that overtaking the Diffused version.
I think your analyse is a bit disingenuous. Some of the math is abit off and the spears are alot more likely to be in effective shooting range than the spectrres are thanks to auto 6" advance. If both start on the line and your opponent start within 4" oh thier deployment line than the spears will make range for all thier ranged weapons while the specters are hoping for ~6s for charge.
~4.69 is how much damage the coherent prism rifle does. It's nto a bonus on 6's it jsut lets you get an extra hit just from hitting. So it's a big deal.
~7.77 geq woudns for the coherent for a unit of 4 spectres.
~.88 melee damage from 4 specters in melee
So a realistic comparison:
3 shining spears
T1
5.67 wounds from shooting
T2
9 wounds from charging and melee
2turn total of 14.67
4spectres:
T1
4.69 from coherent
T2
8.65 wounds from diffusion and melee
2 turn total of 13.34
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xmbk wrote: Twin Shuriken is only 3.5 (12*2/3*2/3*2/3).
Diffused is 7.8 (14*2/3*5/6)
Also, I would just compare shooting. Don't really want to charge with either unit into a horde. The diffused fire is a much bigger deterrent to counter charges.
Again, they are both good, but I'll take Spectres v hordes.
as ssome one who has alot of shining spears in my list you can and do want to charge shining spears into hordes. It's alot of damage and it's almost auto wounding weapons. While you miss the double damage it still clears hrodes very well when compared to the rest of our availible army options.
Also he was right on the shuriken catapult math you aren't factoring in the 6's having better ap than the normal wound rolls.
As has been said on this thread many times. Eldar suck really really bad against hordes. You really have to go the extra mine to deal with them. Our anti armor options are really good despite capping out at str 8, and we are particularly good at taking out everything in the middle of the GEQ-Super heavy spectrum. It's jsut the GEQ part where our forces struggle and lack in effeiency when compared to other armies. As such even charging horde blobs with shining spears is a viable tactic to deal with them as they are among one of the most efficient tools we have available.
Whoops, looks like I did screw up the Spectre math with getting the Coherent additional hit thing wrong. Thanks for picking up the slack.
I guess now that we know that mathematically the Spears are slightly better, the question is do you value the -1 to hit more than the 4++ and the movement? Personally I'll take the latter even if defensively the Spectres win out.
Ok, so can we say with nothing in the Chapter Approved and the huge FAQ nerf Ynnari are nothing but small detachment fodder (if you are willing to not use a CWE warlord trait, relic or the Path of Command CP regeneration).
After overcoming denial and rage, I think it was for the best. Now I'm more fond of CWE and happy to play a pure army of them.
Chippen wrote: Whoops, looks like I did screw up the Spectre math with getting the Coherent additional hit thing wrong. Thanks for picking up the slack.
I guess now that we know that mathematically the Spears are slightly better, the question is do you value the -1 to hit more than the 4++ and the movement? Personally I'll take the latter even if defensively the Spectres win out.
The multi-mode weapon and -2 to-hit via Alaitoc, plus better range on weapons and no need to be in CC to make the most of the unit, I think Specters are very strong.
Thankfully, they don't really compete for the same slot, so you can just opt for both.
I think your analyse is a bit disingenuous. Some of the math is abit off and the spears are alot more likely to be in effective shooting range than the spectrres are thanks to auto 6" advance. If both start on the line and your opponent start within 4" oh thier deployment line than the spears will make range for all thier ranged weapons while the specters are hoping for ~6s for charge.
~4.69 is how much damage the coherent prism rifle does. It's nto a bonus on 6's it jsut lets you get an extra hit just from hitting. So it's a big deal.
~7.77 geq woudns for the coherent for a unit of 4 spectres.
~.88 melee damage from 4 specters in melee
So a realistic comparison:
3 shining spears
T1
5.67 wounds from shooting
T2
9 wounds from charging and melee
2turn total of 14.67
4spectres:
T1
4.69 from coherent
T2
8.65 wounds from diffusion and melee
2 turn total of 13.34
I think you missed a shooting phase Turn 2 in your analysis for the spears? There's no reason why they can't shoot and charge in the same turn like the spectres.
EDIT: NM the 9 includes your shooting math so that line really reads shooting and melee.
Chippen wrote: Whoops, looks like I did screw up the Spectre math with getting the Coherent additional hit thing wrong. Thanks for picking up the slack.
I guess now that we know that mathematically the Spears are slightly better, the question is do you value the -1 to hit more than the 4++ and the movement? Personally I'll take the latter even if defensively the Spectres win out.
The multi-mode weapon and -2 to-hit via Alaitoc, plus better range on weapons and no need to be in CC to make the most of the unit, I think Specters are very strong.
Thankfully, they don't really compete for the same slot, so you can just opt for both.
I have been running 3 units of 5 Shadow Spectres in my last few games (alaitoc) and I have been overwhelmingly impressed. On paper they look excellent, but on the table top they seem to be the swiss army knife my army was missing.
As someone who faces Orks regularly, can't agree that you want to be charging hordes all the time. But situationally, yes.
As has been pointed out, they are both good, and can both fit in a list. Spectres will shoot hordes better, Spears are slightly better if you charge. Spears are faster, Spectres have better range with a better weapon. Spears are tougher.
Spears, Spectres, Hemlocks, and Reapers are the backbone of a competitive list, in my opinion. Along with chars, they are all you need to hang with any army out there.
Just played a store tournament with 3 units of 5 Spectres, 1 max Reaper unit, 4 Hemlocks, 3 Rangers and chars. Tabled all 3 opponents, including Morty one game and Girly another. Spectres are very nice, 10 Reapers dictate the game, but Hemlocks are the really dirty unit.
Has anybody been able to make a Wraith-style Iyanden list work for them?
Since the Codex dropped, I've been messing around with various combinations of Wraith-focused lists to try and make a somewhat competitive list, but the dominance of Horde & Smite spam lists of all flavors feels like it's shut the dream down for another edition.
It feels really hard to justify taking Wraith units (particularly the Knight) in the face of Alaitoc Dark Reaper / Fire Prism firebases.
I think Serpent Wraiths and a Webway unit can compete. Scythes, Implacable, and Wraith toughness can match up with hordes, combined with Serpents. Psykers can slow down Smite. Maybe not high end, but can compete and have good games.
Fire Prisms are limited, not overly impressed with them. A Reaper firebase with Farseer is game changing, though.
I'd definitely avoid running an "Iyanden" style army as Iyanden, though. Alaitoc (obviously) and Ulthwe offer benefits that are worth more mileage for wraith forces (and Ulthwe's trait feels fluffier, IMO).
lyanden is kind of like what ynnari is right now?? It's all about that one big move that big movie comes in the form of the lyanden relic and the wraith stratagem where you burn both of those and go ham.
From there it's probably also the best place to stick a wraith knight who could also benefit from said stratagem/relic.
Other than that you need more army to support that and you'd want another craft world for that.
Where spectres do shine against hordes is the hordes ability to deal with them.
The inbuilt -1 to hit makes conscripts and orks hit on 6s. With alaitoc they can’t even hit them unless within 12. With conceal on they can’t even hit them at all.
Then if they charge them they are eating heavy flamer auto hits to do it. And even if they do get in to combat, they are still at -1 to hit them and have to contend with 3+ save. And then the spectres just fly out of combat and flame them.
Dageran wrote: Has anybody been able to make a Wraith-style Iyanden list work for them?
Since the Codex dropped, I've been messing around with various combinations of Wraith-focused lists to try and make a somewhat competitive list, but the dominance of Horde & Smite spam lists of all flavors feels like it's shut the dream down for another edition.
It feels really hard to justify taking Wraith units (particularly the Knight) in the face of Alaitoc Dark Reaper / Fire Prism firebases.
Wraithknights are hugely overpriced and won't be competitive until they get around 100 points knocked off their price. I am not sure about Wraithlords yet, the boost back up to T8 is nice but that degrading profile......
Wraithguard on the other hand most definitely rock, especially in Wave Serpents. Both shooty versions are very good and Implacable means you won't have to worry about chargers shutting down your shooting. One tactic I have used with some success is to shoot a tough target and then charge into some infantry. Wraithguard are tough enough (particularly with Protect) not to worry unless they are fighting a dedicated CC squad and tying up the enemy like this prevents them doing the same to your other shooty units like Reapers.
The list I am running at the moment has a firebase of Reapers and 2 Fire Prisms with characters to support them. In front of that I run a screen of 3 triple-shuricannon Wave Serpents loaded up with Wraithguard. The Serpents help with horde control and if anything charges them, they are normally tough enough to take a few hits and then disgorge their contents near the enemy. They then withdraw from combat and carry on shooting with the Wraithguard cannon or scythe through the opposition.
It's early days with the new codex but it is working very well so far although I have not faced a dedicated horde army with it yet.
Wyldcarde wrote: Where spectres do shine against hordes is the hordes ability to deal with them.
The inbuilt -1 to hit makes conscripts and orks hit on 6s. With alaitoc they can’t even hit them unless within 12. With conceal on they can’t even hit them at all.
Then if they charge them they are eating heavy flamer auto hits to do it. And even if they do get in to combat, they are still at -1 to hit them and have to contend with 3+ save. And then the spectres just fly out of combat and flame them.
But yeah, as has been stated why not have both.
I dont like considering conceal because your opponent can just chose not to kill the concealed unit.
I also don't think alaitoc is any good in the current meta because most meta armies don't really care about it because most of them do better within 12".
Deathguard spam smite and try to get in your face, pulling off a decent beta strike after they wonder up the table.
Guard as is known are hordie and alaitoc doesn't give you any benefits to deal with them, and become more barbed as you bring stuff like spectres/guardians/etc into 12" when you turn on rapid fire for thier weapons.
even pre nerf ynnari didn't care because mosto f those had very close range elements.
And those three are what i would have considered top dogs for strongest army.
From thier we are trying to see where CWE and Nids will shake out. If needs are good alaitoc won't bring much protection
I honestly think alaitoc is a bit bad. Space marines/Admech/chaos space marines have all had -1 to hit if they are far away stratagems, and they are never used copetively. Admech have a much better long range game than we do and they don't even do it well (more long range options with only slightly less damage out put on more durable models). While marines in cover get a 2+ save and are by extension stupidly resilient accross the table which we are not. Alaitoc really just doesn't seem like the go to craftworld for eldar success
Out side of dark reapers and the crimson hunter. Our best weapons> Hemlock/Shining spears/ spectres all want to be closer. While the dark reapers (go a few pages back) do sub par damage in comparison to the ones listed.
From thier other decently competive options such as banshees/scoprions/guardians/etc languish when being chosen in an alaitoc force.
Again one of our most powerful GEQ squads is the guardian webway force. 20 strong guardians out of the web way will do work. However, they find themselves well out side of the protective alaitoc bubble when they do so, and so gain not alaitoc benefits.
Banshee also do well against MEQ and GEQ units and have a realistic chance of getting a charge off from the line when leaving a transport. Even better depening on deployment map. However, again they only benefit from thier transport taking less from the opening salvo, and don't gain any advantages to thier charge.
All wraith varients wanna get close, and alaitoc again only protects them for the one turn where they are waiting to play the game. Should you go first you gain no alaitoc benefits in this or any of the above caes.
However in other craftworlds you do have benefits you can gain.
As i mentioned moments ago the lyanden bomb is real, and with support it isn't too hard to get a large squad of wraith guard into alot of taste targets.
The guardian squad benefits alot from being in beil-tann as they receive a free reroll one with out needing an autarch around. Letting them be more independent. While they can also benefit from ulthwe's black guardian stratagem making them more dealy should you have a sky runner autarch posed to support them.
Banshee's from transport charge because more reliable and gaining an average 1" or 2" of charge range via the reroll from saim-hann craft world. Scorpions also gain some token deep strike and charge possibilities, but these almost aren't worth mentioning (but i did <.<.
Even the great shining start of CWE the shining spears benefit from rerolling charge, making that damage all the more consistent, and letting them get that turn 1 charge of very reliably from the line.
Shadow spectres become quite tough on the line, and the insurance they'll stick around is pretty nice. everything else your army becomes more the target for enemy fire. While the -1 would have had this effect on your opponent any.... Then again losing thier alaitoc advantage when ever you attempt to take advantage of your flamer profile and your good movement.
while the fabled alaitoc rangers kidn of feel like they should be nothing but back line defenders. taking away the only role i think they are useful in. That role being as DS denial units, as they lose thier alaitoc bonus from being deployed 18" up from your line. In this case they become the meta useless unit known as the back line defender.
All in all i think alaitoc is abit of a crutch, and a cancer to the mind of the CWE player. It's good no doubt... but just about every other armies has been given this ability as well and they don't use it either... while they also have more compeling reasons to stay outside of 12" than most of our army does. CWE has a powerful melee component and really good shurikan weapons that are very pts efficient despite low range. Many of these shurikan weapons doing well from everything to GEQ-Vehicles. I think if you want to make a good competive list you should look outside of alaitoc.
Wraithknights are hugely overpriced and won't be competitive until they get around 100 points knocked off their price. I am not sure about Wraithlords yet, the boost back up to T8 is nice but that degrading profile......
Wraithguard on the other hand most definitely rock, especially in Wave Serpents. Both shooty versions are very good and Implacable means you won't have to worry about chargers shutting down your shooting. One tactic I have used with some success is to shoot a tough target and then charge into some infantry. Wraithguard are tough enough (particularly with Protect) not to worry unless they are fighting a dedicated CC squad and tying up the enemy like this prevents them doing the same to your other shooty units like Reapers.
The list I am running at the moment has a firebase of Reapers and 2 Fire Prisms with characters to support them. In front of that I run a screen of 3 triple-shuricannon Wave Serpents loaded up with Wraithguard. The Serpents help with horde control and if anything charges them, they are normally tough enough to take a few hits and then disgorge their contents near the enemy. They then withdraw from combat and carry on shooting with the Wraithguard cannon or scythe through the opposition.
It's early days with the new codex but it is working very well so far although I have not faced a dedicated horde army with it yet.
Thanks for the info- I may have to try out getting more Wave Serpents, though it's tough to match out how they'd make a huge difference vs. hordes.
I agree that taking a Wraithknight is probably the biggest handicap to a Wraith list right now. I'm using one at the moment because I love the model and it took 3 months to paint, but at the end of the day I know I'm going to have to drop it in favor of units that can actually contest the board.
I can actually weigh in a bit on Wraithlords, though, since I've been running 3x and have been pleasantly surprised with them:
I've found that (with Iyanden, granted) Lords are a really great difficult-to-answer midfield support unit. They're very versatile, and cheap enough per wound when un-kitted, to be effective damage sponges. Outfitted with swords you're looking at an effective MEQ/Carnifex killer if that's what your list needs-- but a basic Wraithlord w/ Catapults + Cannons feels like it can easily make its points back in a group.
Unfortunately, the biggest failing of Wraithlords / Wraithguard is still horde armies, particularly in instances where the opponent knows how to really abuse the pile-in mechanic, and/or use double-move shenanigans to encircle the unit- permanently locking it in melee (even Wraithguard).
For that reason I can't really recommend flamers on the Wraithlords. Keeping a Wraithlord anywhere near another unit invites your opponent to tar-pit them without suffering overwatch from the Flamers by simply charging the other unit, then piling into it. So currently the Wraithlords are in the position of jockeying in the midfield with consistent, tanky damage output vs. Infantry while looking for a charge/counter-charge on something medium sized.
All in all, I've been really happy with them- it's just that they badly, badly need some kind of support when it comes to fighting hordes. There's just no way to effectively answer the map control that respawning blobs of 30-50 cultists + Poxwalkers or Gaunts can have. It makes playing any Maelstrom-style mission feel like an auto-lose before the match starts.
Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.
Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.
xmbk wrote: Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.
Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.
Nah because the top list are have a nice smite spam element that also does care about your -2 x.x. Honestly having face the various various -1 force they just don't matter x.x. Then we also ahve to note the nids are out there and they will also have no cares for the alatioc -1. The best defense is always a good offense in 40k. That's been true for many editions.
My eldar list wouldn't even notice you're playing alaitoc. Nothing would be that far x,x as it's all close range.
But as you say agree to disagree. I'm jsut saying you can go back to the last 3 books with a -1 to hit craftworld (etc) and see the first x pages full of -1 to hit being great. Then tournament hits and they all stop talking about...
xmbk wrote: Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.
Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.
Nah because the top list are have a nice smite spam element that also does care about your -2 x.x. Honestly having face the various various -1 force they just don't matter x.x. Then we also ahve to note the nids are out there and they will also have no cares for the alatioc -1. The best defense is always a good offense in 40k. That's been true for many editions.
My eldar list wouldn't even notice you're playing alaitoc. Nothing would be that far x,x as it's all close range.
But as you say agree to disagree. I'm jsut saying you can go back to the last 3 books with a -1 to hit craftworld (etc) and see the first x pages full of -1 to hit being great. Then tournament hits and they all stop talking about...
What would you predict as the encumbent 'meta' Craftworld then?
Sure its possible to get around the Alaitoc trait, but its still a significant buff when in effect. All the others just seem so 'meh' as to barely even bother with them at all, and are hugely build-specific to be useful. Alaitoc also effects all models in your army, which is different to what we've seen from Raven Guard and the like.
Does anyone elses browser always try to suggest 'Clitoral' as a spelling correction for Alaitoc? Gets me every time.
As Spartacus has said, while Alaitoc isn't spectacular as a trait bonus, it's still the best in a sea of mediocre crap. It's no secret that Eldar got really screwed over on faction traits and relics.
So what's the general consensus on Fire Prisms now, worth taking? Linked Fire definitely has a lot of potential, how is it in practice? Do they compare favorably to Dark Reapers as Heavy Support?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what's the general consensus on Fire Prisms now, worth taking? Linked Fire definitely has a lot of potential, how is it in practice?
good if you have more than one for stratagem they can do great, other wise forl ong range out put you might do better with dark reapers/crimson hunter/ hemlock
I outlined all the chapters that give you more. shurikan weaposn in biel-tann works pretty well for that reroll 1's on everything., saim-hann enabling shining spear and banshee turn 1 charges or in suring them, ulthwe for the guardian stratagem, and lyandan for the wraith bomb. Mix and match those, and maybe an alaitoc ranger detachment and i think that's what will shake out of the meta best.
Biel-tan also has what i'd say is one of the best relics for a melee focused eldar army in that you can give your warlock a free reroll on thier ability to insure you get quicken or something off turn 1. While saim-hann ahs the second best having the character assasinator weapon. That with a empower warlock can drop many heros quickly, or take a big fat chuck off somethign twice your size.
Hmmm yeah Im gonna have to disagree as well. Guardians, Banshees and close combat Wraithstuff will not be meta defining, theyre some of the more average choices in the codex.
And Alaitoc will not be all powerful taking hordes of Rangers. More like hordes of Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters, and Spectres apparently
Yeah, Guardians are okay and gimmicky at best, Banshees aren't good, and melee Wraiths are one-pump-chumps that suffer from all the worst problems that melee in 8th edition has in all the worst ways possible, and fall to pieces in a cloud of wasted overkill the moment an MSU army shows up. All of the options you listed require too much investment to be consistent and competitive options.
Dageran wrote: Has anybody been able to make a Wraith-style Iyanden list work for them?
Since the Codex dropped, I've been messing around with various combinations of Wraith-focused lists to try and make a somewhat competitive list, but the dominance of Horde & Smite spam lists of all flavors feels like it's shut the dream down for another edition.
It feels really hard to justify taking Wraith units (particularly the Knight) in the face of Alaitoc Dark Reaper / Fire Prism firebases.
Wraithknights are hugely overpriced and won't be competitive until they get around 100 points knocked off their price. I am not sure about Wraithlords yet, the boost back up to T8 is nice but that degrading profile......
Wraithguard on the other hand most definitely rock, especially in Wave Serpents. Both shooty versions are very good and Implacable means you won't have to worry about chargers shutting down your shooting. One tactic I have used with some success is to shoot a tough target and then charge into some infantry. Wraithguard are tough enough (particularly with Protect) not to worry unless they are fighting a dedicated CC squad and tying up the enemy like this prevents them doing the same to your other shooty units like Reapers.
The list I am running at the moment has a firebase of Reapers and 2 Fire Prisms with characters to support them. In front of that I run a screen of 3 triple-shuricannon Wave Serpents loaded up with Wraithguard. The Serpents help with horde control and if anything charges them, they are normally tough enough to take a few hits and then disgorge their contents near the enemy. They then withdraw from combat and carry on shooting with the Wraithguard cannon or scythe through the opposition.
It's early days with the new codex but it is working very well so far although I have not faced a dedicated horde army with it yet.
I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.
Fafnir wrote: As Spartacus has said, while Alaitoc isn't spectacular as a trait bonus, it's still the best in a sea of mediocre crap. It's no secret that Eldar got really screwed over on faction traits and relics.
Uh. Allow me to point you to the absolute bottom-tier mediocrity of the AdMech Codex.
xmbk wrote: Gonna have to agree to disagree on Alaitoc. I think it's such a no-brainer that it's the greatest weakness of the codex. Just because you get close doesn't mean you are inside 12" for the entire enemy army. Mobility is the greatest strength of Eldar. You move within range of what you plan to eliminate, not the whole army. -1 isn't what makes Alaitoc so strong, it's all the units that get -2.
Won't be surprised to see a -2 list do very well in some big tournaments soon. Matches up well in the current meta.
Nah because the top list are have a nice smite spam element that also does care about your -2 x.x. Honestly having face the various various -1 force they just don't matter x.x. Then we also ahve to note the nids are out there and they will also have no cares for the alatioc -1. The best defense is always a good offense in 40k. That's been true for many editions.
My eldar list wouldn't even notice you're playing alaitoc. Nothing would be that far x,x as it's all close range.
But as you say agree to disagree. I'm jsut saying you can go back to the last 3 books with a -1 to hit craftworld (etc) and see the first x pages full of -1 to hit being great. Then tournament hits and they all stop talking about...
I would enjoy throwing down and finding out if you really could ignore Alaitoc. That would be an interesting list.
Smite can be handled by a mobile list with plenty of psykers. And there is still a ton of Guard in the meta. It's interesting to jump between this and another thread talking about leaf blower taking over. That's why we play the game, eh?
DanielFM wrote: I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we? A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points. A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful. That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.
Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun. No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.
I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list. I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry. Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.
So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this? And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher. No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.
TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.
I for one plan to avoid taking Alaitoc just to not just play into that "-1 is the best choice" crap that's already infested the game (that should never have been an "always on" passive effect IMHO). With the list ideas I'm tossing about, I'm probably going Biel-Tan since I have a large amount of shuriken weapons.
You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll
Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.
Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what
DanielFM wrote: I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.
Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.
I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.
So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.
TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.
-
Regardless of cost, I still dont know why they didnt loosen the rules on weapon options. They are all in the kit, so why not wraithcannon and shield or wraithcannon and suncannon?
DanielFM wrote: I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we? A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points. A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful. That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.
Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun. No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.
I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list. I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry. Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.
So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this? And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher. No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.
TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.
-
Regardless of cost, I still dont know why they didnt loosen the rules on weapon options. They are all in the kit, so why not wraithcannon and shield or wraithcannon and suncannon?
Agreed. Also, Why can't Wraithguard/blades mix and match weapons? I would love to have a WG unit with 3 D-scythes and 2 Wratihcannons, or a WB unit with 3 Axe/shield and 2 w/ dual swords Terminators can mix weapons. Why do Humans (Imperials and Chaos) have a monopoly on versatility within units?
On the plus side, the WG not being able to take Sword/Shield or dual Axes or mix-n-match means i can kit Wraithblades however I want, as long is it's clear whether they have a shield or not.
Because the 2xSword WG look dumb. And a Sword + Shield WG would look cooler than Axe + Shield.
DanielFM wrote: I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.
Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.
I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.
So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.
TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.
-
Unnecessary melee weapon? Feet are better? Please run the numbers against t7 3+ save monsters/vehicles. 7 vs 13 unsaved wounds makes a whole world of difference. The WK sword kills a t7/t8 3+ save 12 wounds model a turn, while with feet it doesn't.
In a WK vs IK combat the WK wrecks the imperial Knight due to a better weapon plus invulnerable save in melee.
Against heavy Tyranid monsters and Lords of War the CC Wraithknight is a very effective (even if expensive) tool. He keeps the feet, so he is also fairly decent against heavy infantry.
Ok, Eldar have wide access to Scatterlasers and Starcannons. But no-move-and-shoot-penalty ones? Nope. 8 3+ to hit Scatterlaser shots while moving are a useful tool to help clearing infantry screens and bubble wrap. Yes, this firepower pales when compared to an Avenger Gatling Cannon, but it's not negligible.
The sword+shield is actually just 4 points above 450 before shoulder guns. If you don't want them, you get a Knight which is cheaper and better at CC than a IK. It's the shooty versions that pay way too much, IMHO. They would both work at 454, indeed.
I won't say CC Wraithknights are competitive, but they can find a place on casual lists or LoW/heavy monster/vehicle metas.
DanielFM wrote: I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much. We don't want 7th again, do we?
A fully kitted Imperial Knight comes at around 470 points.
A sword+shield WK with two scatterlasers cost the same, and a HWC WK costs around 500 (with the former shooting far worse than the IK but better at melee). 50 points less would pretty much balance them. Or a drop in points if the HWC/Suncannon. Or making the Titanic Wraithbone Fists any useful.
That's considering IK cost is ok. Maybe you also find them too expensive.
Sure a fully kitted IK is around 470pts, but it has an invul save AND a powerful long range gun.
No WK loadout has both of those. You have to pick invul + unnecessary melee weapon (because feet are better) or no invul with long range gun.
I am not counting the shoulder weapons as those are plentiful in the rest of the Eldar list.
I am also not counting the Suncannon version as, while it does have an invul, the gun is dramatically overcosted and isn't good at killing large targets or massed infantry.
Its good target is 2-3 wound models with medium to low T. So Bikes, Terminators and Primaris marines.
So a single build of IK is effective at taking on many threats, while each WK variant is built for specific threats. And we are supposed to pay extra for this?
And while yes, WKs can be buffed in ways that IKs cannot, I would argue that this only brings them to the same level, not higher.
No WK should be more than 450pts before shoulder guns.
TL;DR: WKs should cost no more than the average IK variant, if no less.
-
Regardless of cost, I still dont know why they didnt loosen the rules on weapon options. They are all in the kit, so why not wraithcannon and shield or wraithcannon and suncannon?
Agreed. Also, Why can't Wraithguard/blades mix and match weapons? I would love to have a WG unit with 3 D-scythes and 2 Wratihcannons, or a WB unit with 3 Axe/shield and 2 w/ dual swords
Terminators can mix weapons. Why do Humans (Imperials and Chaos) have a monopoly on versatility within units?
-
Not all Terminators can, right? AFAIK only Deathwing Terminators could mix and match weapons in a single unit. Maybe it changed in 8th.
You can mix'n'match SS+Hammers and Claws within Assault Termie squads, and you can add 1 Heavy to a Tac Termie squad. But you can't mix Tac Termies and Assault Termies in Codex Astartes units (such as Codex: Space Marines).
So I've played a few games with various troop load outs running pure CWE and I can't really find anything in our troop section that is worth much.
I've run a big guardian bomb in the webway (20 + 2 Shruiken Cannon), I've run a smaller lance/EML squad to sit objectives. I've also tried various combos of rangers and MSU Dire Avengers and none of it has impressed me. They're all either tremendously vulnerable or require such a huge investment in resources (CP, psychic powers, etc) that I just don't see them having a place in my armies. I'd still rather just run well priced Kabalites in cheap venoms.
Much of this is supposition, but here's my thoughts on troops
DAs:
Aspect Host lists seem to use DAs well, due to the other aspect squads being just as durable - similar to threat saturation.
They can take some heat as a troop tax, but not ideal
Storm Guardians:
Probably better than previous editions, but still worthless
Guardians:
Can camp a midfield or backfield objective like a Tac with a Heavy. Take a bit to shift. One more heavy weapon. Plus, if something midsized shows up there, they can take a bite out of it. Acceptable. Not amazing or terrible.
They can also pop out of Serpents or WWP. But you're doing only a little more than a 5man PlasTac squad with a 10man Guardian unit. Again, it can do a useful bite. Acceptable again.
They're also the closest we have to chaff, if you really really need a line unit that can take a little shooting. Bad at it, but sometimes you simply need that.
Rangers:
Sniper Scouts. Sit back and do a couple wounds. Takes a bit of firepower to dislodge, but aren't super tanky. If the firepower could take out a Tac squad, it can take out a Ranger squad. If anything gets to them in CC - even just a min Tac squad - they die. Good for what they do. Don't expect them to kill much or survive too much.
Summary:
3 of our troops each have a use. What you need depends on what you're doing. And sometimes you'll want different troops in the same force.
I'm really curious why people are camping rangers out when... It really feels to be like that is the weakest way to utilize them. Every army stresses alternate deployment tactics, for obvious reasons, and rangers have one of the best ones for securing your own deployment zone.
I find their offense to be lacking, and their defense is average, in the best of scenarios. The -1 to be hit, or -2 with Aliatoc, is gimmicky or just enough to get them ignored... but that is usually more a product of their shabby offense than the traits. Ideally, you want them to be threatening enough to draw fire too get some work out if that -hit trait, and for that, spectres do so much better.
Dropping them ahead of your lines into the dead zone for deployment does allow you to make a cheap buffer for your lines, though. And their offensive output is meaningless, because their purpose is to stop critical units behind them from being ambushed or overran. They will make up their points by keeping assaulters or plasma out of your lines.
Guardians do something very similar, particularly out of webway strike. They can come in to take some space from the opponent. They can be inconvenient to navigate through due to the size of the unit, and can more easily earn their cost back before they are deleted. They require a little less support, but the size of the unit means that they get more gains when the support is there. The shirken weapons also threaten many units in the game, surprisingly, and the 12" range is something the webway helps to manage.
So either as a inconvenient obstacle, or a surprise ambush unit pushing out a lot of dangerous dakka on out of place units... Guardians can make their presence felt. I've been really liking them this edition.
Dire Avengers have me in a stump, though. They probably want a wave serpent more than the other units. They can't position themselves with ease, so they are a unit that can be planned against, and usually do not present enough of a threat to really redirect fire. That means they sink down on the threat priority, while the opponent goes for more interesting targets. Mine tend to muddle around the middle of the board, looking for something to get in to, but never really impacting the game outside of being opportunistic.
My experience for troops pretty much shakes out like this:
MSU rangers for deployment zone extension, aka: speed bumps.
Max guardians for timely deployment out of the webway, to control an area and present an unexpected threat (the knee jerk is strong with them).
Dire Avengers for when... I just want a touch of variety or want to put something in a wave serpent. More clutter in the middle means my deployment zone is cleaner, right?
As for craftworld... I usually play only one across the army, but completely, the craftworld traits tend to play out easily. Biel-tan for the battalion. Probably a spearhead with Aliatoc, toss in spectres here. And that's about all I play unless I bring a super heavy auxillary, then it is either iyanden or ultheway. Getting closer to iyanden, because fortune just flocks to the knight.
Also: Knight with a sword... Cheapest Knight, has a 5+. Super tanky. And people like shooting it for whatever reason. The fire it attracts is astounding. Put fortune on it... And snicker as it shields the rest of your tanks and support units.
Your milage may vary wildly, but that has been my experience.
Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently
sadhvikv wrote: Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently
I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.
sadhvikv wrote: Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently
I would hardly call the a "vital" unit. They certainly are one of the more cost effective answers, but far from the only.
But I do expect a small point increase on them
Hopefully the Skathach WK goes down dramatically in points. If its total cost comes down close enough to the Codex WK, but still keeps the Webway Strike ability, I could see this being the answer to making WKs playable again.
sadhvikv wrote: Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently
I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.
FW is being included, so I expect to see them in there. I just hope not as a point hike, because right now they seem about right. They are fragile, mobile and hard to hit and have decent, short-range firepower. Their current ppm cost seems spot on.
sadhvikv wrote: Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently
I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.
The teaser today literally states they are adjusting forgeworld costs in chapter approved. The example they gave was malefic lords are now going to be 80 points. So hopefully Eldar do get adjusted.
I hope Shadow Spectres exarch gets 2 wounds and has his cost adjusted, but i hope they don't go up more points. They're well-costed, but definitely not undercosted.
The other FW stuff however could use a reduction. esp warp hunter and hornets. Besides all of the weapons which have gone down in cost, but have not been adjust in FW yet.
Spectre with a 1-5pt increase would really make room for warp spiders to have a role as the armies premier tank unit.
I was thinking Maybe even shining spears need a points adjustment, but the shining spears have sooo much more risk they put themselves under due to having to go melee.
Note that anything in the codex is up for points adjustment because folks have been play testing chapter approved for 3 months now.
DanielFM wrote: I'm one of the strongest "Wraithknight is overcosted" activists out there, but 100 points less is way too much.
It really isn't too much. The base cost of an IK is 320 points which includes a 5++ against shooting.
The WK has exactly the same base stats and no invulnerable save yet costs 400 points base. If the Wraithlord cost 300 points base, it would be fine. Not great but OK.
Heavy Wraithcannons are OK although they do pretty much mono-purpose the WK. The Sword'n'Board variety hits hard but not hard enough for its points. I have shot one down before it ever got near my lines and that was with my Space Wolves (hardly known as a hardcore shooting army). The Suncannon is just a joke. For more points than an Avenger, you get almost half the RoF and just one point better on AP.
The Wraithknight is a classic example of GW's difficulty in balancing units. If something is too strong in one edition, they don't just tone it down, they nerf it into oblivion in the next edition.
Karhedron wrote: The Wraithknight is a classic example of GW's difficulty in balancing units. If something is too strong in one edition, they don't just tone it down, they nerf it into oblivion in the next edition.
Bingo. GW seems to believe in the law of averages. The WK was too cheap for an entire edition, so it needs to be over costed for AT LEAST a whole edition before they'll price it appropriately
Sadly by the time that happens, the WK sales will be so low that GW will have forgotten about them and do nothing.
To get the most deep strike / infiltrates I would need to deploy two Ranger units on the table (to meet the 50% requirement). That does mean Illic, 1x Rangers, 3x Warp Spiders, the Farseer and the Autarch all go in reserve. I can also opt to throw the Ranger squad and Illic on the table, given their ranged firepower, and Webway two of the Specter squads. The CHE stays outside 12" and tries to pop tanks. Hornets advance and CTM their guns against nearby juicy targets. This is the tough one - as they must engage the nearest enemy to be at -2 to-hit, so their positioning will be key.
'); ('
