Issue is also that you have to test points costs at extremes, currently you can fit 3 wraithknights, 2 farseer and a autaurch at 2000pts. If you drop it down to mid 400 points 450ie, would taking 4 in 2000pts break it? it may be balanced alone in its points, which is fantastic, but does the points cost taken at extremes work? just something to consider when balancing.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what's the general consensus on Fire Prisms now, worth taking? Linked Fire definitely has a lot of potential, how is it in practice? Do they compare favorably to Dark Reapers as Heavy Support?
If you take them as a pair and can keep them alive as such then they are great. 1CP for rerolls to hit and wound for 2 units is pretty good and allows you to focus Guide/Doom elsewhere. Make sure you do not need to redeploy them though as you really need to be moving below half rate as shooting twice is the key to success.
They can reliable put 12-13 points of damage on any unit that does not have an invulnerable save so simply pick a vehicle/monster a turn and delete it. They compare well to Reapers in terms of damage output per point but against slightly different targets. Reapers excel at murdering elite infantry and lighter tanks. Fire Prisms will delete heavily armoured targets without problems.
Focussed (not Lance) is the optimum firing mode against large targets (unless GW introduce T9 units in future).
brando87 wrote: Issue is also that you have to test points costs at extremes, currently you can fit 3 wraithknights, 2 farseer and a autaurch at 2000pts. If you drop it down to mid 400 points 450ie, would taking 4 in 2000pts break it? it may be balanced alone in its points, which is fantastic, but does the points cost taken at extremes work? just something to consider when balancing.
You can do this now with Baneblade variants which are more durable, much shootier, and still very good in CC with a stratagem. Like, compare a Shadowsword to a Wraithknight with cannons. The Shadowsword is 100 points cheaper, has much better add-on options, has two more wounds, shoots 2 or 3 times better with its main gun compared to the wraithcannons, and hits about as well in CC vs big targets.
Karhedron wrote: The Wraithknight is a classic example of GW's difficulty in balancing units. If something is too strong in one edition, they don't just tone it down, they nerf it into oblivion in the next edition.
Bingo. GW seems to believe in the law of averages. The WK was too cheap for an entire edition, so it needs to be over costed for AT LEAST a whole edition before they'll price it appropriately
Sadly by the time that happens, the WK sales will be so low that GW will have forgotten about them and do nothing.
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lol the Falcon is still paying for its crimes against the Imperium in 4th Edition.
Please don't nerf Spectres. They're good units, and compete with the better units and aspect warriors in the codex, and that's a good place for them. They're in a solid spot right now that makes them notable but not dominant. They can do a lot, but also pay a lot for a single-wound model.
If anything, Spiders could use a reduction in points (or an extra shot on their guns).
Spiders could use something like increased D if target has more wounds than 1 (except Vehicles). For now monofilament weaponry is too similar to shuriken one.
Shadenuat wrote: Spiders could use something like increased D if target has more wounds than 1 (except Vehicles). For now monofilament weaponry is too similar to shuriken one.
Agreed, something to differentiate would be nice. I remember when deathspinners used to be template, a flamer like profile would be cool also...
sadhvikv wrote: Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently
I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.
FW is being included, so I expect to see them in there. I just hope not as a point hike, because right now they seem about right. They are fragile, mobile and hard to hit and have decent, short-range firepower. Their current ppm cost seems spot on.
That's good to know been a bit day late for chapter approved updates, wishing for some nice changes for the Wraithseer then.
Shadenuat wrote: Spiders could use something like increased D if target has more wounds than 1 (except Vehicles). For now monofilament weaponry is too similar to shuriken one.
Agreed, something to differentiate would be nice. I remember when deathspinners used to be template, a flamer like profile would be cool also...
Spiders was the original antihorde Eldar unit.
I still hope they change the Deathspinner rules to be a pseudo Heavy flamer someday.
Would be nice to see them get something specifically built for that purpose. Perhaps make them Assault X/R12"/S6/AP-1/D1, with something like 1 shot for every 5 models in a unit? That would definitely help a lot in not only making them better for more than just grabbing objectives, but also differentiate more them in function from Spectres.
You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll
Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.
Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what
Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting
You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll
Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.
Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what
Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting
Only if you want to start the unit inside of the transport, i believe?
If you deploy outside of the transport, i thought you could then embark onto the transport at a later point in the battle, as long as you shared a common keyword - in this case Aeldari/Asuryani.
You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll
Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.
Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what
Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting
Only if you want to start the unit inside of the transport, i believe?
If you deploy outside of the transport, i thought you could then embark onto the transport at a later point in the battle, as long as you shared a common keyword - in this case Aeldari/Asuryani.
That was the case during 7th ed. after the main FAQ.
In 8th ed., each transport explicitly says which units it's able to transport. Wave serpents can only transport <CRAFTWORLD> units. When you take a wave serpent, you have to choose the craftworld it belongs to, and the name of that craftworld replaces <CRAFTWORLD> everywhere on the WS's datasheet. So if you choose your WS to be Alaitoc, the transport section of its datasheet becomes "A WS can transport 12 phoenix lords or Alaitoc infantry". So it can only transport units from the same craftworld.
You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll
Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.
Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what
Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting
Only if you want to start the unit inside of the transport, i believe?
If you deploy outside of the transport, i thought you could then embark onto the transport at a later point in the battle, as long as you shared a common keyword - in this case Aeldari/Asuryani.
That was the case during 7th ed. after the main FAQ.
In 8th ed., each transport explicitly says which units it's able to transport. Wave serpents can only transport <CRAFTWORLD> units. When you take a wave serpent, you have to choose the craftworld it belongs to, and the name of that craftworld replaces <CRAFTWORLD> everywhere on the WS's datasheet. So if you choose your WS to be Alaitoc, the transport section of its datasheet becomes "A WS can transport 12 phoenix lords or Alaitoc infantry". So it can only transport units from the same craftworld.
Wave Serpents and Falcons only allow friendly <Craftworld> units to embark upon them, meaning the units has to have the same craftworld as the transport.
As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.
Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.
Fafnir wrote: As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.
Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.
Fafnir wrote: As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.
Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.
different product, i too have been burnt by them. So i don';t really buy FW anymore.
FarseerReborn wrote: Any chance Wraithknight will get a points drop in Chapter Approved?
They had their chance with the codex, at this point I believe the Wraithknight is exactly where GW want it to be this edition.
It's been OP for two editions, so according to GW logic it has to suck for a while. Just like the joke about the statistician standing with one foot in a freezer and the other on hot coals, the average would be reasonable.
The most recent codex we know of which is getting updated is Death Guard. I think that after that was Guard and then Eldar? It's hard to believe that there's been enough time for them to have incorporated any feedback on the Eldar codex from actual players, but it's entirely possible that they'll have realized that there are still issues on their own. The early codices made some changes, after all, and that was entirely down to pre-8th playtesting. Chapter Approved benefits from at least another month of seeing how index 8th actually played out in the real world.
Nothing else much for Eldar of any flavor. Harlequin CC weapons got a bit cheaper. Dark Eldar Court beasts got a lot cheaper. Corsairs got a lot cheaper -- now it's 9 points for a Corsair with a shardcarbine.
Dionysodorus wrote: The most recent codex we know of which is getting updated is Death Guard. I think that after that was Guard and then Eldar? It's hard to believe that there's been enough time for them to have incorporated any feedback on the Eldar codex from actual players, but it's entirely possible that they'll have realized that there are still issues on their own. The early codices made some changes, after all, and that was entirely down to pre-8th playtesting. Chapter Approved benefits from at least another month of seeing how index 8th actually played out in the real world.
I don't know hwo to explain this to you, but there is a pro USA and EU(england included) community who have been playing iwth all the codexs (everything from space marines to daemons) since march or so. So they ahve gotten massive amounts of feed back.
Fafnir wrote: As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.
Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.
different product, i too have been burnt by them. So i don';t really buy FW anymore.
Everything else that I've ever gotten from FW has been solid to very good, save for a missing foot on a Quartermaster that was very easily fixed. I'm really sad and surprised to get something this bad.
That said, if those leaks are true, Shadow Spectres are completely dead as units anyway. At 23 points per man, they were good, solid units, that managed to shine with some of the better units in the codex. At 24-27 points per man, they'd end up being costly, but still generally useful enough to justify their use in more specialized contexts, albeit not as a primary unit easily tossed into a list. At 33 points per man, they're ridiculously overpriced garbage. There's no way a point increase that massive for them is justified.
EDIT: So, new point of discussion building off that; now that Spectres are bad, I guess our only anti-horde options are Shining Spears.
Also, no point reduction for the Avatar either? Come on GW, what the hell are you smoking?
Fafnir wrote: As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.
Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.
different product, i too have been burnt by them. So i don';t really buy FW anymore.
Everything else that I've ever gotten from FW has been solid to very good, save for a missing foot on a Quartermaster that was very easily fixed. I'm really sad and surprised to get something this bad.
That said, if those leaks are true, Shadow Spectres are completely dead as units anyway. At 23 points per man, they were good, solid units, that managed to shine with some of the better units in the codex. At 24-27 points per man, they'd end up being costly, but still generally useful enough to justify their use in more specialized contexts, albeit not as a primary unit easily tossed into a list. At 33 points per man, they're ridiculously overpriced garbage. There's no way a point increase that massive for them is justified.
EDIT: So, new point of discussion building off that; now that Spectres are bad, I guess our only anti-horde options are Shining Spears.
Also, no point reduction for the Avatar either? Come on GW, what the hell are you smoking?
Spear are good, but getting more than two units (one saim-hann one quickend) you can only reliably bring two units that do all thier damage. From thier they fall off a bit.
Scorps in saim-hann aren't too bad as they drop shoot pistols, and get a decent charge. Making the charge they compete well with shining spears.It's just making that charge.
Similar howling banshees can make reliable turn 1 charges from a waveserpent at the line, and do so even more reliably in saim-hann thanks to rerolling. They also compete well for killing GEQ rivallying guadians.
Swooping hawks/Dire averengers do pretty well as our ranged option. Thier turn 1 burst the same as spectres at their current point level. With swooping hawks coming out on top of both in terms of turn 1 burst if you factor in the grenade, and swooping hawks benefit from movement tricks. Dire avengers can benefit from biel-tan.
The drop guardian squad is about as strong as spears when they hit, and better in biel-tan or Ulthwe. ! unit can put enough wound into multiple unit's to cause good morale.
Hemlock i stand by being mandatory in eldar that -2LD is too important, while it won't help with horde nids. It helps with everything else, and horde nids die fast enough once you take out the big ones.
In my book drop guardians and swooping hawks take the cake. I like them because they are hard to stop, and put out good damage. The guardians can also not webway strike in letting you save the CP in games where you dont particularly need them. While swooping hawks fit in all craft worlds. While i think at least one squad of spears in a must take, and if you can swing saim-hann or maybe biel tan 2 or more squads will get you there.
From there the hemlock will provide allowing you less efficient weapons add to those morale checks.
Ok. Screwed Shadow Spectres? No biggie, I always hated them. Now they don't make Warp Spiders seem redundant, and we don't have to read: get Shadow Spectres! in each list thread.
On the other hand, no change to the WK. Well, I was prepared for that.
Without Shadow Spectres, it really is between hawks and shining spears. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
If you look purely against hordes, hawks are the better with more range, model count, grenades, deep strike, and slightly more damage.
Spears have versatility, with small units of 3, the exarch deals consistent damage against big things. They also go through not just light infantry, but also marines.
My money is still on the spears being the better bet, but only in units of 3 and multiple of them. What is everyone elses thoughts?
I wouldn't write off big squads of spears.
The way buffs work and the alternating attack order a big squad has some advantages over multiple smaller ones.
If you can apply protect and fortune on a big squad with a potential Lighning-fast reactions strategem they are very durable.
Quicken to shove them into the enemies throat.
In addition you have less deployment picks and thus a better chance to go first.
On the other hand you lose out on damage and wounds compared to the smaller ones.
Guess it depends on the army composition but both ways to field spears are viable in general.
Dionysodorus wrote: The most recent codex we know of which is getting updated is Death Guard. I think that after that was Guard and then Eldar? It's hard to believe that there's been enough time for them to have incorporated any feedback on the Eldar codex from actual players, but it's entirely possible that they'll have realized that there are still issues on their own. The early codices made some changes, after all, and that was entirely down to pre-8th playtesting. Chapter Approved benefits from at least another month of seeing how index 8th actually played out in the real world.
I don't know hwo to explain this to you, but there is a pro USA and EU(england included) community who have been playing iwth all the codexs (everything from space marines to daemons) since march or so. So they ahve gotten massive amounts of feed back.
Sure, this is what I meant by "pre-8th playtesting". Obviously a lot of these people are not actually very good at figuring out what's balanced. Like, I don't know to what extent this is incompetence vs weird boosterism, but the FLG guys were playtesters and yet their review of the Eldar codex was talking as if the Iyanden trait wasn't garbage. Their reviews are consistently way too optimistic about a bunch of things that turn out to be terrible options. Balancing a game is actually a difficult thing to do well and you need people who know how to do it. Simply getting people who are better than average at playing the game doesn't cut it.
Spectres just went from no-brainer to situational. They needed at least a 5 point increase, 7 was about right. At 33 I will still take them, just not 15 of them.
3-4 Hemlocks are great at crowd control. But MSU Spears just got a passive bump, imo.
Dionysodorus wrote: The most recent codex we know of which is getting updated is Death Guard. I think that after that was Guard and then Eldar? It's hard to believe that there's been enough time for them to have incorporated any feedback on the Eldar codex from actual players, but it's entirely possible that they'll have realized that there are still issues on their own. The early codices made some changes, after all, and that was entirely down to pre-8th playtesting. Chapter Approved benefits from at least another month of seeing how index 8th actually played out in the real world.
I don't know hwo to explain this to you, but there is a pro USA and EU(england included) community who have been playing iwth all the codexs (everything from space marines to daemons) since march or so. So they ahve gotten massive amounts of feed back.
Sure, this is what I meant by "pre-8th playtesting". Obviously a lot of these people are not actually very good at figuring out what's balanced. Like, I don't know to what extent this is incompetence vs weird boosterism, but the FLG guys were playtesters and yet their review of the Eldar codex was talking as if the Iyanden trait wasn't garbage. Their reviews are consistently way too optimistic about a bunch of things that turn out to be terrible options. Balancing a game is actually a difficult thing to do well and you need people who know how to do it. Simply getting people who are better than average at playing the game doesn't cut it.
Nah I just think you don't understand how the frontline gaming look at thinfs and put out articles. They make article from a stand point of what does this due and what are the possibilities. Theybdont thumbs up or thumb down everything. They know that atleast hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people play this game, and in that maybe some one will make a god tier Lynden list. As such its best when writing any sort of guise to tale a mostly neutral stance and shine a positive light on everything. From there you can decide what actually looks goos to you or not. Look at the area imperium review the miniwargaming people did.
In that review the mountain literally only taller about what was good, and that was it. However, in using his own opinion he didn't really talk about what is the most used chapter tactics and relics right now. Basicly, it knowing you aren't the smartest person in the whole universe, and the whole teach a man to fish thing.
In light of the CA changes, there may be a decent gimmicky character spam army now, drawing from all the Eldar books. Sslyth are very cheap wounds and you can take huge numbers of them with Archons. Spiritseers are now the cheapest full Smite casters in the game (by 1 point). A Farseer with Executioner also puts out MWs pretty efficiently.
I'm not sure if any of the Harlequin characters cut it. Death Jesters still seem awful. But The Yncarne goes well with this -- he gives the Sslyth a 6+ FNP, which is especially nice since they don't have Power from Pain. The best WotP target is probably either Maugan Ra (can he shoot twice off of a Soulburst?) or Illic, though possibly neither is worth it.
Mortarion probably wrecks this, with his MW pulse, but otherwise it seems pretty solid.
Ioldar wrote: I wouldn't write off big squads of spears.
The way buffs work and the alternating attack order a big squad has some advantages over multiple smaller ones.
If you can apply protect and fortune on a big squad with a potential Lighning-fast reactions strategem they are very durable.
Quicken to shove them into the enemies throat.
In addition you have less deployment picks and thus a better chance to go first.
On the other hand you lose out on damage and wounds compared to the smaller ones.
Guess it depends on the army composition but both ways to field spears are viable in general.
I don't think anyone has said spears aren't good. That being said a bigbunit of spears as anti horde is gonna struggle odds are you get 2 maaaaaaaaaaybe 3 infantry squad charged. That simply not enough damage. The big unit of spears is only good against the big unit of horde model, but AM right now doesn't use as many or any big horde squad. Instead they bring lots of infantry squads that are still super cheap and do decent damage for thier points.
Nah I just think you don't understand how the frontline gaming look at thinfs and put out articles. They make article from a stand point of what does this due and what are the possibilities. Theybdont thumbs up or thumb down everything. They know that atleast hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people play this game, and in that maybe some one will make a god tier Lynden list. As such its best when writing any sort of guise to tale a mostly neutral stance and shine a positive light on everything. From there you can decide what actually looks goos to you or not. Look at the area imperium review the miniwargaming people did.
In that review the mountain literally only taller about what was good, and that was it. However, in using his own opinion he didn't really talk about what is the most used chapter tactics and relics right now. Basicly, it knowing you aren't the smartest person in the whole universe, and the whole teach a man to fish thing.
I mean, I was explicit that maybe this was not incompetence and was instead "weird boosterism". I feel like you're not reading my posts. Obviously if they gave feedback to GW that looks like their articles, then their playtesting was basically worthless. Maybe you're right (and I also correctly identified this possibility) and they're giving more useful feedback to GW while then writing articles that don't actually help people figure out what's good.
Nah I just think you don't understand how the frontline gaming look at thinfs and put out articles. They make article from a stand point of what does this due and what are the possibilities. Theybdont thumbs up or thumb down everything. They know that atleast hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people play this game, and in that maybe some one will make a god tier Lynden list. As such its best when writing any sort of guise to tale a mostly neutral stance and shine a positive light on everything. From there you can decide what actually looks goos to you or not. Look at the area imperium review the miniwargaming people did.
In that review the mountain literally only taller about what was good, and that was it. However, in using his own opinion he didn't really talk about what is the most used chapter tactics and relics right now. Basicly, it knowing you aren't the smartest person in the whole universe, and the whole teach a man to fish thing.
I mean, I was explicit that maybe this was not incompetence and was instead "weird boosterism". I feel like you're not reading my posts. Obviously if they gave feedback to GW that looks like their articles, then their playtesting was basically worthless. Maybe you're right (and I also correctly identified this possibility) and they're giving more useful feedback to GW while then writing articles that don't actually help people figure out what's good.
With a constantly shifting meta that he is making. A article that says "what's good" will last about a month maybe 3 at best... before you need to rewrite it. An article that points at what every unit could be good for, and the best way to use each of those initial will still be true no matter how much the points change. If I were buying based on a guide in the current 40k format. I'd go for the even handed approach guides rather than... omg shadow spectre and shining spears are the best right now only buy that and paint them all aliatoc.... because we can see how long that would have lasted.
With a constantly shifting meta that he is making. A article that says "what's good" will last about a month maybe 3 at best... before you need to rewrite it. An article that points at what every unit could be good for, and the best way to use each of those initial will still be true no matter how much the points change. If I were buying based on a guide in the current 40k format. I'd go for the even handed approach guides rather than... omg shadow spectre and shining spears are the best right now only buy that and paint them all aliatoc.... because we can see how long that would have lasted.
Of course, this sort of guide is also not useful to anyone with half a brain. You could introduce a reasonably intelligent person to the game and then in a couple weeks they'd be just as capable of writing this kind of pap about the Iyanden Attribute: "This is an awesome trait and means you can run larger units without any morale control units. Guardians especially love this as you can take full sized units with impunity, but also full strength units of Aspect Warriors too, take very good advantage of this boost. And, obviously, any vehicle heavy or Wraith Construct heavy army." These reviews are useful to people who don't actually have the codex, because they show you all the rules, but the commentary is basically all pointless and they could save everyone a lot of time by just posting scans.
I mean, there's no there there. They just point out the most obvious of rules interactions. Yes, a rule that helps with morale and damage tables is good for units which are vulnerable to morale or which have damage tables. But how good is it in context? Who can say!
You're going after a straw man when you talk like I want them to say "only buy shadow spectres and paint them Alatoic". That'd be bad advice, so of course I don't want them to say that. But any reasonable review would have pointed out that Shadow Spectres outshone all of the other Elite choices, many of which are pretty lackluster. It should probably also stress that things could change in the future given GW's expressed commitment to frequent balance updates, but it seems kind of silly to say that a rules review should not review the rules in front of it because maybe there will be different rules later. Likewise any reasonable review should point out that Alatoic is head and shoulders above the other Craftworlds for most units and lists, and that you basically never want Iyanden over Alatoic or Ulthwe. You can contextualize this, sure. Maybe you say "it's too bad that Alatoic is so much better than the others for now; hopefully Iyanden will get a buff later because it has some fun rules". But as-is their review is misleading, although it's so over-the-top in places that most experienced players probably don't give its statements about what's powerful or good any credence.
With a constantly shifting meta that he is making. A article that says "what's good" will last about a month maybe 3 at best... before you need to rewrite it. An article that points at what every unit could be good for, and the best way to use each of those initial will still be true no matter how much the points change. If I were buying based on a guide in the current 40k format. I'd go for the even handed approach guides rather than... omg shadow spectre and shining spears are the best right now only buy that and paint them all aliatoc.... because we can see how long that would have lasted.
Of course, this sort of guide is also not useful to anyone with half a brain. You could introduce a reasonably intelligent person to the game and then in a couple weeks they'd be just as capable of writing this kind of pap about the Iyanden Attribute: "This is an awesome trait and means you can run larger units without any morale control units. Guardians especially love this as you can take full sized units with impunity, but also full strength units of Aspect Warriors too, take very good advantage of this boost. And, obviously, any vehicle heavy or Wraith Construct heavy army." These reviews are useful to people who don't actually have the codex, because they show you all the rules, but the commentary is basically all pointless and they could save everyone a lot of time by just posting scans.
I mean, there's no there there. They just point out the most obvious of rules interactions. Yes, a rule that helps with morale and damage tables is good for units which are vulnerable to morale or which have damage tables. But how good is it in context? Who can say!
You're going after a straw man when you talk like I want them to say "only buy shadow spectres and paint them Alatoic". That'd be bad advice, so of course I don't want them to say that. But any reasonable review would have pointed out that Shadow Spectres outshone all of the other Elite choices, many of which are pretty lackluster. It should probably also stress that things could change in the future given GW's expressed commitment to frequent balance updates, but it seems kind of silly to say that a rules review should not review the rules in front of it because maybe there will be different rules later. Likewise any reasonable review should point out that Alatoic is head and shoulders above the other Craftworlds for most units and lists, and that you basically never want Iyanden over Alatoic or Ulthwe. You can contextualize this, sure. Maybe you say "it's too bad that Alatoic is so much better than the others for now; hopefully Iyanden will get a buff later because it has some fun rules". But as-is their review is misleading, although it's so over-the-top in places that most experienced players probably don't give its statements about what's powerful or good any credence.
Well for one I maintain aliatoc is pretty meh as well when you place it in the games current meta, and the craftworld all are along the same power level ad the other chapter tactics type things that have been released.
From there, if that's what you want. That's what you want. I think your wrong, but I've said thing.
Just got back from the open day and checked their copy of chapter approved, went straight to the eldar section and noticed shadow spectres havnt changed in points (yay...), bought some, then realised just now i didnt look at the weapons, looked at the leaks and was really disappointed...looks there going back next time im down at WW. Im such an idiot.
FarseerReborn wrote: anyone knows Eldar points changes from Chapter Approved book?
From what I seen leaked so far, none of the Codex points changed, which makes sense because the Codex just came out. It's a shame they did drop the points for the WK, but oh well
Forge World stuff did change though. Many of the super heavies went up in cost, including an 800 pt increase (an over 60% jump) for the Revenant. No one was taking it before, they almost certainly won't be taking it now.
Prism rifles for the Shadow Spectres also went up by 10ppm.
The Skathach WK Deathshroud cannons went down by 35pts each though, which makes a Deathshroud cannon/Shield WK only 45pts more than a Suncannon/Shield WK, but has the ability to drop in.
The Skathach WK Deathshroud cannons went down by 35pts each though, which makes a Deathshroud cannon/Shield WK only 45pts more than a Suncannon/Shield WK, but has the ability to drop in.
I agree, it is this "Everything is awesome" narrative that quickly stopped me from reading their stuff.
More importantly/on topic though, does anyone know if the corsair troops gained any deployment/transport options? The price drop is welcome, now I just need a way to get them where I want them to go!
pilchard8 wrote: Just got back from the open day and checked their copy of chapter approved, went straight to the eldar section and noticed shadow spectres havnt changed in points (yay...), bought some, then realised just now i didnt look at the weapons, looked at the leaks and was really disappointed...looks there going back next time im down at WW. Im such an idiot.
I feel you. I just ordered a unit of specters three days ago. They haven’t even arrived yet, and they’ve already been nerfed.
The Skathach WK Deathshroud cannons went down by 35pts each though, which makes a Deathshroud cannon/Shield WK only 45pts more than a Suncannon/Shield WK, but has the ability to drop in.
It also retains the ability to completely blow.
Indeed, but at least it's a step closer to being playable in casual games. There are plenty of Marine players in my area that do not use Guiliman or Razorbacks. A deepstriking WK with a 5++ could at least be fun in those games.
Raulengrin wrote: Am I reading this right? Did the Warp Hunter really get a 50 point INCREASE?
You’re reading it right :(
The only way I can rationalize increasing the cost of the Warp Hunter is if they’ve also increased the damage output.. maybe 2D3 or D6 shots on the longer ranged attack? That’d keep it still (point per wound) in the same ballpark as other vehicles without being a standout. If not, it’s wayyy too expensive now.
Might be wishful thinking.
Raulengrin wrote: Am I reading this right? Did the Warp Hunter really get a 50 point INCREASE?
Yeah it’s weird. A lot of the forgeworld stuff is just not viable.
It’s understandable for the titans and super heavies.
But the other “normal” options make no sense.
The warp hunter seemed overpriced and now is more expensive.
The Phoenix bomber was something worth considering. With the crimson hunter getting a points drop I had hopes for that to also get a slight decrease plus points drop for cannons. Instead the price went up making it strictly worse than the crimson hunter.
It’s all good to balance stuff, but what are they actually balancing them to?
It's all just an assassination of Forgeworld, really. If Guilliman, Celestine, Primaris Psykers, and Spiritseers faced similar treatment, I could understand it being a legitimate attempt at balance. If it was only the superheavies, I could see it as being a legitimate attempt to separate Apocalypse as its own thing (as it rightfully should have always been). But as things are, it's very clear that this is GW saying that they don't want people buying or using Forgeworld models in games, in any context.
It's for this reason that, short of a team tournament that I've already committed myself to (that I bought a bunch of Shadow Spectres for!), and only for the sake of my teammate, I won't be playing any games or entering into any events that use the current Chapter Approved rules. All they do is centralize the meta further down Imperial Soup hole that it has been spiralling for so long (the same meta that CA was supposed to fix).
I think I'm preaching to the choir, but Chapter Approved was pretty clearly a resounding disappointment. The community didn't want massively nerfed titans, but just fixes for units that could use them.
We didn't see any substantial fixes to Guileman or Celestine, Tau/Necrons didn't get *any* points adjustments, WK/Ynnari (post major nerf) went ignored...and that's just what I have off the top of my head now.
I can't speak for you all, but I went from a solid "will buy day 1" on the book to a hard no.
DarknessEternal wrote: I rescind my opinion of the unviability of Shadow Specters after playing some games.
They are expensive, but they are still a requirement. Craftworld simply cannot compete without them.
I'm wondering what your reasoning for that is. They're no longer nearly point-efficient enough to be an anti-horde solution, and while their guns are solid, at their new cost, they have a hard time offering firepower that can be found cheaper elsewhere. And as far as durability goes, 33 points for a T3 W1 model is just way too much, no matter how many gimmicks you give them for survivability.
Realistically: The Scorpion is redundant and sub-optimal.
Craftworld is able to kill one big thing in a variety of ways. Most of those methods are also vastly better at killing many medium things or small things.
Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.
Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.
xmbk wrote: Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.
Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.
Spectres will be fine.
This is a terrible way to think about point costs. It makes absolutely no sense to separate weapons from platforms in this way.
You're also being really optimistic about the situations Spectres will find themselves in. Yes, Alatoic Spectres are at -2 to hit and have 2+ saves when in cover and farther than 12" from the enemy. Of course, they have heavy flamers so they want to be close, and that also makes it hard to be in cover and outside 12". Even in cover they're very vulnerable to deep strikers, CC, and Smite (and other sources of mortal wounds that don't roll to hit). Without Alatoic, they're very vulnerable to long-range shooting -- mortar teams are happy to shoot non-Alatoic Spectres even in cover.
Some examples of things that just wreck Alatoic Spectres, even in cover:
A Hemlock can hit them wherever they are, and if outside of Deny range expects to kill about 150 points' worth.
Celestine can move 24", shoot them with a heavy flamer, and then charge (from let's say ~7" away so that she only takes a little Overwatch but is still reliably getting in) and expects to kill 120 points' worth.
An Eversor Assassin deep strikes in, kills 0.8 Spectres with shooting, and then very reliably gets into CC and kills another 3 (again ~120 points' worth, from a 70 point model).
Even with their price increases, a plasma Scion Command Squad just about makes back its cost when shooting them.
Obliterators put out about the same damage as a Scion squad and will commonly have a couple buffs available. Likewise a Chaos Terminator bomb.
Most armies have pretty popular options that are really good against them. It's true, they were too good. They were a staple of Craftworld-based Ynnari tournament lists. It's not actually clear if they were still nearly as good as non-Ynnari or as Ynnari post-nerf, but regardless it seems unlikely that they needed a 43% price increase.
How do we feel about wraithseers now? For a mere 12 points more than than a wraithlord with a sword, we get a wraithlord with a 5++ with the ability to give themselves (or another wraith unit) a 6+++ and 2 additional wounds and a better version of the sword. Plus the ability to equip them with a slightly reduced-in-points D-Cannon. Not too shabby.
However, I'm noticing it is still missing the "Wraith Construct" keyword, so it isn't affected by strategems or the psytronome from the craftworlds codex.
Raulengrin wrote: How do we feel about wraithseers now? For a mere 12 points more than than a wraithlord with a sword, we get a wraithlord with a 5++ with the ability to give themselves (or another wraith unit) a 6+++ and 2 additional wounds and a better version of the sword. Plus the ability to equip them with a slightly reduced-in-points D-Cannon. Not too shabby.
However, I'm noticing it is still missing the "Wraith Construct" keyword, so it isn't affected by strategems or the psytronome from the craftworlds codex.
EDIT: They can't give themselves a 6+++.
But they are T7 still. Compared to T8 for the Wraithlord. Or did they upgrade the Wraithseer too?
Heavy Flamers have a standard 17-point cost, across all lists.
And it's not being optimistic, it's my experience. It's 8th edition, anything the other guy wants dead will die. But due to their mobility, it's easy to keep Spectres from being a prime target. Not hard at all to stay on the outskirts and use their firepower to remove units that pose a threat. I don't think using Celestine as an example is very useful. I'll gladly sacrifice a unit of Spectres to get her out of position. As an Eldar player, you should not be surrendering disadvantageous deepstrikes. We control that phase.
As for Hemlocks, they are still right there with Reapers as our most undercosted units. It's not just Spectres that should fear them.
Raulengrin wrote: How do we feel about wraithseers now? For a mere 12 points more than than a wraithlord with a sword, we get a wraithlord with a 5++ with the ability to give themselves (or another wraith unit) a 6+++ and 2 additional wounds and a better version of the sword. Plus the ability to equip them with a slightly reduced-in-points D-Cannon. Not too shabby.
However, I'm noticing it is still missing the "Wraith Construct" keyword, so it isn't affected by strategems or the psytronome from the craftworlds codex.
EDIT: They can't give themselves a 6+++.
But they are T7 still. Compared to T8 for the Wraithlord. Or did they upgrade the Wraithseer too?
Oh, yeah. I'm so used to wraithlords being t8 I forgot that brief period they for some reason stopped being the toughest thing in the galaxy. Hope they get updated. Some day.
xmbk wrote: Heavy Flamers have a standard 17-point cost, across all lists.
So? It's still not at all reasonable to try to come up with a balanced point cost for a unit by trying to figure out what its weapons and bodies should be priced separately. For a couple reasons, GW has written the codices with separated costs, but even they realize that you can't, like, apply a formula to these things separately. They just give weapons uniform costs and then give bodies wildly different costs to make up for that -- a Dark Reaper body is cheaper than a Guardian body, for example.
And it's not being optimistic, it's my experience. It's 8th edition, anything the other guy wants dead will die. But due to their mobility, it's easy to keep Spectres from being a prime target. Not hard at all to stay on the outskirts and use their firepower to remove units that pose a threat. I don't think using Celestine as an example is very useful. I'll gladly sacrifice a unit of Spectres to get her out of position. As an Eldar player, you should not be surrendering disadvantageous deepstrikes. We control that phase.
As for Hemlocks, they are still right there with Reapers as our most undercosted units. It's not just Spectres that should fear them.
I don't think this makes much sense. If anything the other guy wants dead will die, then you don't want to be paying a huge premium for offense on a relatively fragile unit. If your Spectres are staying on the outskirts then you're not getting much out of their flamers. If they're on the outskirts then how are you protecting them from deep strikers? What is it that "distracting" Celestine by giving up a ton of points is buying you? Why not just spend those points on more of the thing that you're actually concerned about her interfering with?
xmbk wrote: Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.
Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.
Spectres will be fine.
Your point comparison only makes sense if Spectres could fire both modes of their gun at once. You get a gun with two functions, but it can only ever serve as one of them at any given time.
xmbk wrote: Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.
Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.
Spectres will be fine.
Your point comparison only makes sense if Spectres could fire both modes of their gun at once. You get a gun with two functions, but it can only ever serve as one of them at any given time.
But go gotta pay a premium for the flexibility, or would you pay the same for a simple heavy flamer and a heavy flamer which can charge its optimum target if needed?
Another topic: in my list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745177.page I have been told to lack anti-tank. I'm wondering if changing my Sword+Shield Wraithknight (I know I know, casual fodder) and Hemlock for a Heavy Wraithcannon Wraithknight and Crimson Hunter would help me.
Which option sounds better?
It's a casual list but looking for some competitiveness.
xmbk wrote: Spectres were blatantly undercosted. They went from "no-brainer in a top tournament list" to just good.
Heavy flamer is a standard 17 points. Concentrated beam is worth an extra 8. So that's 8 points for a T3/1W model that also has Fly, -1, 3+, and morale reduction. With their mobility, most of the time they will be -2 to hit with a 2+ save. That's 3 tanks firing 9 heavy Bolters to kill 1 Spectre, slightly more with reroll 1's. Or 72 lasgun shots. Or 27 bolter shots.
Spectres will be fine.
Your point comparison only makes sense if Spectres could fire both modes of their gun at once. You get a gun with two functions, but it can only ever serve as one of them at any given time.
But go gotta pay a premium for the flexibility, or would you pay the same for a simple heavy flamer and a heavy flamer which can charge its optimum target if needed?
Another topic: in my list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745177.page I have been told to lack anti-tank. I'm wondering if changing my Sword+Shield Wraithknight (I know I know, casual fodder) and Hemlock for a Heavy Wraithcannon Wraithknight and Crimson Hunter would help me.
Which option sounds better?
It's a casual list but looking for some competitiveness.
Its more like a HF or a always rend shuriken cannon.....
They needed to go up honestly, they were extremely good for what you got and the fact that you can use stratagems on them was insane, i'm glad you can, and i still love them as a unit and would still take 1 unit of them, tho 10pts might have been to much, 7pts would have been more reasonable increase.
An increase of up to 5 points would have been reasonable. But anything more than that would be ridiculous, and done with the intent of killing the unit rather than balancing it.
This myth that Spectres are fragile needs to go away. They are not.
No, you don't have to be able to fire both modes at once to say it's fair to pay a premium for flexibility.
Can't protect from deepstrike on the perimeter? Huh? Trust me, it's easy. Had a tournament game last week where my opponent delayed Obliterators for turn because they had nowhere to go, still had to drop them suboptimally. Big Reaper unit with Farseer changes the whole dynamic.
As far as the Elites slot goes, prior to the nerf, you can't really name much in competition because the Eldar elite units are surprisingly poor. Wraiths and Dragons are solid, albeit in requirement of more support to do their jobs properly, Banshees are overcosted but functional, and Scorpions are just bad.
But within the scope of the entire codex, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears and Hemlocks are all superior units, before the nerf. Spectres were definitely one of the better units in the CWE armoury, but not to any excess compared to the best units in the codex. And while they warranted some cost adjustment, units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.
Fafnir wrote: As far as the Elites slot goes, prior to the nerf, you can't really name much in competition because the Eldar elite units are surprisingly poor. Wraiths and Dragons are solid, albeit in requirement of more support to do their jobs properly, Banshees are overcosted but functional, and Scorpions are just bad.
But within the scope of the entire codex, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears and Hemlocks are all superior units, before the nerf. Spectres were definitely one of the better units in the CWE armoury, but not to any excess compared to the best units in the codex. And while they warranted some cost adjustment, units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.
Completely agree, those three units you listed are the premium units in the Eldar Codex. In isolation, 3 units of 3 spears outperforms 9 spectres (for the same points after CA). However if your list is already built on those three units you listed, you would likely either end up going to 3+ hemlocks, or 3+ units of spears or into the 3rd unit of reapers, at that point you gain flexibility from having spectres.
I think true competitive TAC eldar lists have taken a blow with the spectre nerf, as now it's quite hit or miss whether a good horde list can be dealt with (orks/nids), but I also think it's a fair nerf. Spectres are in the right place at 33 points, they are still an option. Even at 28 points (5 point increase) they would've been a definite take. Now they'll still be better than the majority of the codex, but not better than our premium units. I was running 21 spectres before, now I'll be running 9-10.
The models are also gorgeous!!! My favourite aspect warrior!
Exactly what sad said. Though Hemlocks and Reapers are still the backbone of a top tier Eldar list, with chars. Round out with Spears, maybe a few Spectres. Everything else is inferior.
Fafnir wrote: ...units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.
What did you expect from them? What are they supposed to be? They deepstrike, they are as resilient as you can make them, they get two strength 4 attacks, a fluffy (and useful) bonus when attacking units in cover, and moderately useful Mandiblasters (not worse than previous versions) for a decent price.
What would the needed rewrite feature? Having 4 attacks? Guaranteed charge after deepstrike?
The only thing they really need is ap -1 on their chainswords. But hardly anyone gets this kind of CC weapons.
Fafnir wrote: ...units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.
What did you expect from them? What are they supposed to be? They deepstrike, they are as resilient as you can make them, they get two strength 4 attacks, a fluffy (and useful) bonus when attacking units in cover, and moderately useful Mandiblasters (not worse than previous versions) for a decent price.
What would the needed rewrite feature? Having 4 attacks? Guaranteed charge after deepstrike?
The only thing they really need is ap -1 on their chainswords. But hardly anyone gets this kind of CC weapons.
2 Strength 4 attacks is completely pathetic for what is meant to be a dedicated CC unit IMO. Barely scratches the paint on many things and if the enemy is decent at striking back, they have no hope. For me, if they really need something its more CC output. The claw is ok but no one wants a unit simply for exarch delivery.
They also lost their ability to stalk though cover and gain better bonuses from it. T3 with a 3+ save isn't that durable (no matter how many people say it is), and I don't see them often making it to close combat unless they manage to make their initial 9 inch charge. While that's not a deal breaker, I do certainly miss that rule compared to what they had in 7th, was nice and fluffy having to hug the cover and stalk on your way to make your assault. The bonus to hit enemies in cover seems arbitrary and strange to me by comparison.
So what's CWE's best anti-infantry/anti-horde options, particularly in dealing with MEQ toughness 4 type of units like Genestealers and Necron Warriors?
Fafnir wrote: ...units like Striking Scorpions need to be rewritten entirely to be worth even considering alone, let alone in comparison.
What did you expect from them? What are they supposed to be? They deepstrike, they are as resilient as you can make them, they get two strength 4 attacks, a fluffy (and useful) bonus when attacking units in cover, and moderately useful Mandiblasters (not worse than previous versions) for a decent price.
What would the needed rewrite feature? Having 4 attacks? Guaranteed charge after deepstrike?
The only thing they really need is ap -1 on their chainswords. But hardly anyone gets this kind of CC weapons.
2 Strength 4 attacks is completely pathetic for what is meant to be a dedicated CC unit IMO. Barely scratches the paint on many things and if the enemy is decent at striking back, they have no hope. For me, if they really need something its more CC output. The claw is ok but no one wants a unit simply for exarch delivery.
They also lost their ability to stalk though cover and gain better bonuses from it. T3 with a 3+ save isn't that durable (no matter how many people say it is), and I don't see them often making it to close combat unless they manage to make their initial 9 inch charge. While that's not a deal breaker, I do certainly miss that rule compared to what they had in 7th, was nice and fluffy having to hug the cover and stalk on your way to make your assault. The bonus to hit enemies in cover seems arbitrary and strange to me by comparison.
You could give them 3 attacks, tops, by making Scorpion Chainswords +1 attack. Any more and you need special rules to justify non superhuman models with that many attacks IMHO.
Why would you need to stalk through cover on your way when you can pop right besides your enemy? Having +1 to cover sabes in a 3+ save model means a 1+ save, which appears to go against current GW design.
+1 to hit against enemies in cover not only makes sense (have you played one of the Batman: Arkham games? See how a stalker can turn the environment against you) but it's also functionally interesting by giving SS a role: dislodging backfield units from cover. Ok, they could be more efficient at it, but they are far from the useless disaster you make them appear to be.
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Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what's CWE's best anti-infantry/anti-horde options, particularly in dealing with MEQ toughness 4 type of units like Genestealers and Necron Warriors?
D-scythe Wraithguard sounds pretty sweet at murdering the latter. Dark Reapers can do the same from affar. Ghostsword Wraithblades munch them in CC if you can get them there.
Dispersed Fire Prism is also very efficient at that.
People will say Shining Spears, but as I'm tired of reading it again and again (plus their models are awful) I wanted to give other choices.
I had those units in mind as well, glad someone else was having the same thought. Shining Spears seem good but I don't exactly see how they're great anti-horde? Sure they have Twin Shuriken Catapults and 2 attacks a piece but is that really enough to compete with the other mentioned units? Plus as someone considering going Alaitoc, I'm not sure how good Shining Spears would be in that Craftworld (although I supposed the -1 to hit as they're riding up the field is a nice bonus).
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what's CWE's best anti-infantry/anti-horde options, particularly in dealing with MEQ toughness 4 type of units like Genestealers and Necron Warriors?
Tempest launchers on multiple Dark Reaper exarchs. I like to bring four or five, one unit of 5 regular reapers + exarch for buffing/forewarned, the rest minsized to hide out of LoS and shoot the tempest.
Fafnir wrote: Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.
I'd be happy to settle on AP -1 melee as and extra attack seems a bit much. Now, if you give them an extra attack on a modified/unmodified 6 then that could be argued. They do deepstrike after all.
Fafnir wrote: Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.
This. Just compare them to Harlequins if you don’t agree. 4 attacks base, 4+ invuln, can be kitted with anti tank weapons, special cc weapons, or left bare bones for mulching hordes.
Am I missing something in that the Revenant increased by 800 pts while the Phantom stayed the same? Now the Phantom is twice as good as the Revenant but only about 400 pts more. Is this clear oversight or a plot to sell more big titans?
Likely the second part. You can write the changes done to anything from Forgeworld as being completely out of left field and done entirely out of hand.
If anything, GW's crazy points inflation of FW products only serves to undermine the legitimacy of the good changes.
Dionysodorus wrote:Some examples of things that just wreck Alatoic Spectres, even in cover:
Auto-hitting eldar jet, top tier melee units and Smite can kill a unit which relies on protection from shooting. That's not a surprise and probably is how game is supposed to work.
Which is fine. The problem is that now the return for killing a squad is so much higher, and a list with them can do less to defend them with good counterplay since they'll have less resources available for it.
Fafnir wrote: Scorpions need +1 attack and -1AP to come close to reaching their point value.
This. Just compare them to Harlequins if you don’t agree. 4 attacks base, 4+ invuln, can be kitted with anti tank weapons, special cc weapons, or left bare bones for mulching hordes.
An Eldar with 4 attacks with no rules to justify it is too much. Never made sense to me, and it would make no sense for SS either.
4+ invulnerable is the same as 3+ against AP 0 and -1, and worse if in cover. It's not that superior.
Plus Mandiblasters. Plus Deepstrike.
They are different enough that a direct comparison is kind of moot.
I think 3 attacks at S4 for Scorpions would be fair enough. Often im finding my Scorpions and Banshees bounce off their targets unless im buffing with CP's/Powers or flying an Autarch nearby (and sometimes that isn't enough to help them do their jobs). I also think Mandiblasters should also be reworked to be wound on 4+ (vs everything) rather than mortal wound on 6+ (vs infantry).
Banshees should be our standard combat can openers and Scorpions our standard combat horde butchers but currently neither particularly shine in these roles.
Fafnir wrote: Which is fine. The problem is that now the return for killing a squad is so much higher, and a list with them can do less to defend them with good counterplay since they'll have less resources available for it.
Absolutely, that's what points adjustments do. But Spectres are an example of how CA should work. They were too cheap, now they are fairly priced. If GW continues to do this for all armies, 40k will be a better game.
NOTE - The following results DON’T take into account Shuriken weapons getting a -3 ap on 6’s to wound. (simply because I cba to spend the time and effort trying to work it out). This also doesn’t not account for things like Guide and Doom.
This also only takes shooting into account, for the sake of a straight up comparison of several units.
So, even with the nerf in points to the Prism Rifle, Shadow Spectres will still, just, beat out Spears on a point per wound comparison for dealing with GEQ and MEQ. (looking at Spectres being 1 point per wound better than Spears – when Spectres don’t take an Exarch). But this is ONLY when using the flamer mode.
If the unit is forced to use the other firing mode, Spears are significantly better than the Spectres.
Hawks, however, are better than both units when dealing with GEQ, but way worse for everything else. The same also goes for Spiders being significantly worse, but, against GEQ as well.
However, it gets really interesting when you start adding looking at Dire Avengers and Guardians.
A 5-man Dire Avenger squad with 6 catapults (exarch with 2), is only slightly, slightly, worse than flamer Spectres for points per wound, but,
A 10-man Guardian squad is significantly better at killing GEQ than everything previously mentioned. Of course, they then suck vs MEQs compared to the previous options, but, for GEQ killing, they seem to be king. (Interestingly, adding in a Shuriken Cannon actually slightly decreases the PPW, but it’s still better than other units)
Both of these infantry unit’s also can then get a further improvement to their PPW if they are Biel-Tan.
So, the “most efficient” option currently open to Craftworlds for dealing with GEQ hordes, is the humble basic Guardian squad, followed by Avengers and then Hawks.
For MEQ “horde” clearing, Wraithguard with D-Scythes are by far the best, followed closely by Dark Reapers using the str 5 shots. These are followed by Flamer Spectres which still have a fair advantage over Spears and then Guardians. However, when you swap to non-flamer Spectres, they are significantly worse than Spears and Guardians.
Unfortunately, War Walkers and Vypers aren’t even close for dealing with hordes – but start to see improvements against mid toughness units when using starcannons.
I can provide some of the numbers I’ve come with, if people want. I’ve not looked at every unit though.
Ignoring the shuriken rule is going to make your results for those weapons pretty useless for MEQ shooting.
Shining Spears shoot better than Shadow Spectres using their flamer mode vs GEQs and MEQs.
Dire Avengers shoot slightly better than Spears and Spectres vs GEQs, and a little worse vs GEQs.
Guardians are the most cost-efficient shooting vs both MEQs and GEQs -- 24 ppw vs MEQs and 12 ppw vs GEQs. Though Spears are better against both if they also charge.
Happy so many eldar made it into the top 10. Not happy everyone decided on 1 small ynnari detach & alaitoc else. Not surprising, but I thought maybe something like a huge amount of Ulthwe guardians or some Alaitoc Fire Prisms would make it into the lists at least just for an experiment. Nice to see someone warmed up to Banshees, they're a great unit.
Dionysodorus wrote: Ignoring the shuriken rule is going to make your results for those weapons pretty useless for MEQ shooting.
Shining Spears shoot better than Shadow Spectres using their flamer mode vs GEQs and MEQs.
Dire Avengers shoot slightly better than Spears and Spectres vs GEQs, and a little worse vs GEQs.
Guardians are the most cost-efficient shooting vs both MEQs and GEQs -- 24 ppw vs MEQs and 12 ppw vs GEQs. Though Spears are better against both if they also charge.
I fully agree that not including the Shuriken bonus will affect the figures, but, trying to work it all out on averages will take more time than i can give it right now. Plus, not including it, does kind of give a "basic" initial overview on shooting alone. (for example, you'd expect to get 1.48 6's to wound per 10 man Guardian squad - so potentially has a limited impact in actual game).
I left the charging out, again as an example of shooting vs shooting. You're likely not want to get any of the units i listed into combat, apart from the Spears, so adding that in would further skew the figures and wouldn't account for the turns where charging is not possible/fails.
Happy so many eldar made it into the top 10. Not happy everyone decided on 1 small ynnari detach & alaitoc else. Not surprising, but I thought maybe something like a huge amount of Ulthwe guardians or some Alaitoc Fire Prisms would make it into the lists at least just for an experiment. Nice to see someone warmed up to Banshees, they're a great unit.
Personally, i'm kinda surprised at the amount of Ynnari shown in those lists. With the nerf to Soulburst i wasn't expecting to see so much of it (unless this was played pre nerf).
Lots of Dark Reapers in those lists as well. Something i can't quite force myself to do, just yet.
I am not surprised at all. A detach of 2 units like 10 Reapers and a Shining Spear squad make the best of SB mechanic, while Alaitoc does the rest. You get your double-tap on a shooty unit, while Spears get their Move SB after killing enemy unit in melee. Those are 2 best SB actions (although you could also get a Fight SB with Spears when multi-charging I guess).
Judging by the amount of psykers in lists (sometimes 6+), we are also capable in the smite-spam game.
I fully agree that not including the Shuriken bonus will affect the figures, but, trying to work it all out on averages will take more time than i can give it right now. Plus, not including it, does kind of give a "basic" initial overview on shooting alone. (for example, you'd expect to get 1.48 6's to wound per 10 man Guardian squad - so potentially has a limited impact in actual game).
I left the charging out, again as an example of shooting vs shooting. You're likely not want to get any of the units i listed into combat, apart from the Spears, so adding that in would further skew the figures and wouldn't account for the turns where charging is not possible/fails.
It's actually very easy to include the shuriken rule. Average results for a Guardian shooting a MEQ: 2*2/3*(1/3*1/3+1/6*5/6) = 1/3. Without accounting for rending you get 2/9, 33% lower than the right answer. It's true that 10 Guardians "only" expect 2.22 6s to wound, but of course they only expect 6.66 wounds total. Not including it skews the results significantly in favor of Spectres and Hawks. It's a big problem for Spectres that they're no longer a particularly efficient shooting unit, especially relative to their fragility.
And, sure, a shooting vs shooting comparison is useful. It's just worth noting that CC adds almost nothing for most of these units and a ton for the Spears, so the fact that their shooting alone is about as good as the Spectres' is a big deal.
Happy so many eldar made it into the top 10. Not happy everyone decided on 1 small ynnari detach & alaitoc else. Not surprising, but I thought maybe something like a huge amount of Ulthwe guardians or some Alaitoc Fire Prisms would make it into the lists at least just for an experiment. Nice to see someone warmed up to Banshees, they're a great unit.
Woha, the lack of diversity is depressing.
Did we actually get the Dark Hemlock Codex?
Now I see why people ignore my lists in the subforum. I'm using units which appear not to be in their codex
Spectres shoot GEQ almost exactly the same as Spears. Spears get the advantage with a charge only. Ignoring the maneuverability and flexibility of Spectres is a mistake (compared to Guardians). Not to mention survivability.
Guard firing HB on Alaitoc Spectres/Spears/Guardians in cover, points killed per shot: 1.2/1.7/1.2
Same, with Lasguns: 0.46/0.57/0.67
Obviously there are other weapons that favor Spears. But these are 2 of the more common profiles shot against these troops. Bolters favor Spectres as well. They are still a solid choice.
Surprised that eldar did so well in the tournament but not too surprised at the lists. We have already established that dark reapers, shining spears and hemlocks are our best units, and we see almost every list running those. The ynnari detachments of shining spears and dark reapers is also unsurprising. WotP on dark reapers is devastating and shining spears with quicken means a turn 1 assault. With a large unite of spears it is not too difficult to charge a unit and a character, eat the character and soulburst to destroy the unit. Another winning combination is just wiping out a unit and soul bursting 22" away to safety.
With the range of the dark reapers and the speed and mobility of shining spears and hemlocks, opponents deployment means very little and you can just start plowing through your opponents most powerful units.
With the way detachments are we are going to see a lot of just the best units paired with the best trait for that unit, and that is for all armies not just ours.
xmbk wrote: Spectres shoot GEQ almost exactly the same as Spears. Spears get the advantage with a charge only. Ignoring the maneuverability and flexibility of Spectres is a mistake (compared to Guardians). Not to mention survivability.
Guard firing HB on Alaitoc Spectres/Spears/Guardians in cover, points killed per shot: 1.2/1.7/1.2
Same, with Lasguns: 0.46/0.57/0.67
Obviously there are other weapons that favor Spears. But these are 2 of the more common profiles shot against these troops. Bolters favor Spectres as well. They are still a solid choice.
Not sure where you're getting those numbers. At -1 on the Spectres to be hit, Spears take just as much damage as Spectres, except Spectres are one wound per man instead of two, and cost 5 points more per man. Which would put the comparison far in the Spears' favour.
xmbk wrote: Spectres shoot GEQ almost exactly the same as Spears. Spears get the advantage with a charge only. Ignoring the maneuverability and flexibility of Spectres is a mistake (compared to Guardians). Not to mention survivability.
Guard firing HB on Alaitoc Spectres/Spears/Guardians in cover, points killed per shot: 1.2/1.7/1.2
Same, with Lasguns: 0.46/0.57/0.67
Obviously there are other weapons that favor Spears. But these are 2 of the more common profiles shot against these troops. Bolters favor Spectres as well. They are still a solid choice.
Not sure where you're getting those numbers. At -1 on the Spectres to be hit, Spears take just as much damage as Spectres, except Spectres are one wound per man instead of two, and cost 5 points more per man. Which would put the comparison far in the Spears' favour.
His numbers are right, he's just stacking the deck pretty heavily in favor of Spectres. Alatoic Spectres beyond 12" vs BS4+ are hit on 6s, which is what's doing most of the work here. Also the Spectres are in cover and the Spears are assumed not to benefit from it (tbf it's harder for them to claim a cover save).
Right, though Guard are certainly a popular opponent. And it's certainly true that Spectres are in cover most of the time, esp when they are a prime target. Let's try Girlyman HB's:
Spectres v Spears, in cover: 4.1/3.9 points per shot. So, even a 3+ rerollable is only slightly in favor of Spears. And that's assuming you don't take Exarchs, which would push the numbers slightly back into the Spectres favor.
Again, I'm not saying that Spectres are better than Spears. I am saying the they are much tougher than some people are making out. They are still clearly the 4th best non-character choice after Reapers, Hemlocks, and Spears. The first 2 are way out in front, Spears and Spectres are much closer.
Note that Guilliman doesn't actually change anything about the ratio because of the way re-rolls work now -- I think you were right the first time that the Spectres do better against BS3+ heavy bolters, though it's very close.
But yes, I get that you're saying Spectres are tough. I'm saying that it's not very impressive that in nearly the best case scenarios for them (facing BS4+ at >12", in cover, vs AP0 or AP-1) they turn out to be only a little more durable than a unit which is faster and hits much harder. Meanwhile lots of armies have units which counter Spectres pretty hard.
So I don't really see why you'd take them now. Just take Spears. And then there are lots of more appealing choices like Guardians or Rangers to fill Troops slots, and probably even Hawks for a bit of shooting and objective capping. Scytheguard and probably Fire Dragons are also still perfectly good.
I'll agree that they're better than Scorpions, Banshees, Dire Avengers, Wraithblades, Vypers, Spiders, and Windriders, but these things are not very good. Even after the codex, lots of Eldar units are just not very appealing and don't measure up to comparable units in other armies. Being in the top 10 units is just not a big deal. This isn't the Guard codex where you can easily find 10 things that you'd be happy putting in a list.
Rerollable does matter, because they are getting hit on different numbers. As for the best case, can't agree. Light multi-wound weapons clearly favor them even more, just as flamers favor Spears more. Spectres are not getting targeted by cannons too often.
Yes, if I were going to a hardcore tournament, it would be all Hemlocks, Reapers, and characters, with a few Spears and Rangers. But you should try fielding some Spectres, I think you'll find them more useful than you think.
xmbk wrote: Rerollable does matter, because they are getting hit on different numbers. As for the best case, can't agree. Light multi-wound weapons clearly favor them even more, just as flamers favor Spears more. Spectres are not getting targeted by cannons too often.
Yes, if I were going to a hardcore tournament, it would be all Hemlocks, Reapers, and characters, with a few Spears and Rangers. But you should try fielding some Spectres, I think you'll find them more useful than you think.
But re-rolls are before modifiers, so either way he only re-rolls the 1s and 2s.
Right, forgot about that. Even more awesome sauce. I tabled a Girly list in a tournament last week without even remembering that. Alaitoc Hemlocks with a big Reaper unit is Insta-competitive.
xmbk wrote: Alaitoc Hemlocks with a big Reaper unit is Insta-competitive.
Which is probably why I am choosing one or the other and never both. Considering I don't own Reapers and they don't have plastics yet, guess which choice I never field?
Of course, that's doesn't stop me from taking Reaper launchers on my Autarchs
It can be 2 extra wounds if you're trying to take out an enemy character with Mind War and snipers. Not super effective, but basically free. Nightspear and a Reaper Autarch with sniper abilities is a nice combo for removing support chars.
Fafnir wrote: Kill things, make them take leadership checks.
Basically; -2 Ld makes things that are used to being basically immune to morale at least somewhat vulnerable, and things that were already a little vulnerable start running away in droves. Just remember that there's an optimal number of casualties to inflict on squads as a function of size and Ld, depending on what you're after, and then spread your fire out. Killing 6 members of a 10-man Ld 7 Infantry squad gives you pretty good odds of seeing the rest all run away. Even for a 5-man Marine squad with ATSKNF, the lone survivor has a 44% chance of running away when near a Hemlock.
This doesn't work on Tyranids or Orks, but Hemlocks end up being an important part of Eldar anti-horde tactics, since there's not really any Eldar unit which is actually good at killing them directly. Hemlocks are actually pretty significant force multipliers. If you're up against a bunch of Ld 7 10-man units, a Hemlock being close by is worth an extra ~1.17 kills in each squad which you inflict 6 casualties on. It's actually giving you even more of a benefit when you kill fewer guys across more squads (half an extra casualty for killing just 1 guy in the squad) but you should be aiming to maximize the total number that flee, not just the additional runners due to the Hemlock.
Cast Embolden on the Farseer for +2 and use mind war....that combined with the hemlock's -2 wll give you a 3 to 5 point advantage to the roll to kill the character.
If he survives have the autarch try to finish him off with the reaper launcher.
If you can get rid of you opponent re-rolls then those Alaitoc army trait bonus becomes that much sweeter
How good are farseers now? How does he compare to eldrad? How about compared to two spirit seers? I imagine executioner is an auto pick as it seems like a better smite, Guide is better for big units while doom is better if you have msu.
I rate farseers, haven't tried Eldrad yet due to the craftworld keyword jazz. But he looks good.
Powers to take depend on your target audience. Guide is ok but greatly reduced this edition, due to the way modifiers work after rerolls.
Doom is almost an auto pick by comparision. Theres very few situations where it is less useful during a game than guide. Executioner is solid as you say, but dont discount good old smite which come for free if you need it.
Fortune is the other solid power. Not many people put their faith in it but I find it incredibly beneficial especially mid game, when you know what the opponent is likely to try and kill next turn.
My usual pick is a farseer with doom and fortune. If I ever took a second one it would be executioner and probably doom again, just in case.
With the point drop (and likely eventual errata to raise toughness...which I think many opponents would give you now already in a casual game), my concept of d-cannon sniping with the Wraithseer is now even more amusing. Poor dude really needs to get access to smite though.
Not efficient, of course, when we have so many good sniping options now, but it is hilarious and kinda fun.
Executioner is good but remember it has to target the nearest unit. Smite is good because it can target characters I thought?
I really like the Embolden + Hemlock + Mind War combo, you could also use horrify but you are better just using another smite I think when targeting a character. Embolden is probably best on a Spiritseer because apart from boosting Mind War embolden isn't amazing so you can use full smite
drakerocket wrote: With the point drop (and likely eventual errata to raise toughness...which I think many opponents would give you now already in a casual game), my concept of d-cannon sniping with the Wraithseer is now even more amusing. Poor dude really needs to get access to smite though.
Not efficient, of course, when we have so many good sniping options now, but it is hilarious and kinda fun.
I don't know if we should hold out hope for the raise in toughness. The -25pts may be the band-aid that the Wraithseer gets instead. That said- now that D-Cannons are down 5 pts and don't require line of sight, I I'm feeling like the character-sniping strat is less ridiculous, especially against things like nids that have a lot of mind-war defense.
I plan on playing a Wraithseer-sniper and 2x Rangers in a game this week to see how effective he can be at sniping characters out of crowds.
Korlandril wrote: Executioner is good but remember it has to target the nearest unit. Smite is good because it can target characters I thought?
I really like the Embolden + Hemlock + Mind War combo, you could also use horrify but you are better just using another smite I think when targeting a character. Embolden is probably best on a Spiritseer because apart from boosting Mind War embolden isn't amazing so you can use full smite
I think you are mixing a bit the power.
Both Executioner and Smite must target the nearest enemy unit, but executioner grants you extra MW if a model is slain with the original attack.
It's Mind war the one who allow to target characters.
Korlandril wrote: Executioner is good but remember it has to target the nearest unit. Smite is good because it can target characters I thought?
I really like the Embolden + Hemlock + Mind War combo, you could also use horrify but you are better just using another smite I think when targeting a character. Embolden is probably best on a Spiritseer because apart from boosting Mind War embolden isn't amazing so you can use full smite
Korlandril wrote: Executioner is good but remember it has to target the nearest unit. Smite is good because it can target characters I thought?
I really like the Embolden + Hemlock + Mind War combo, you could also use horrify but you are better just using another smite I think when targeting a character. Embolden is probably best on a Spiritseer because apart from boosting Mind War embolden isn't amazing so you can use full smite
I think you are mixing a bit the power.
Both Executioner and Smite must target the nearest enemy unit, but executioner grants you extra MW if a model is slain with the original attack.
It's Mind war the one who allow to target characters.
I had just picked up from discussions that you could target any unit but yeah if it's closest, executioner is great and smite can be used too.
Smite spam can't be that great then, surely a dedicated shooting unit is going to be better use of points
Remember that executioner works best on units with 2 or less wounds and mindwar only works on characters. You can find yourself without a good target as the game progresses with these powers.
Well, the nice thing about Executioner is that it only tends to be wasted on things that you'd otherwise be pretty happy to Smite. There aren't that many multi-wound models which pay less than 10 points per wound. The big weakness of Smite is that it can be absorbed by little 4 point dudes, but Executioner is almost twice as effective against these.
Smite spam can't be that great then, surely a dedicated shooting unit is going to be better use of points
Depends on what youre up against. Smite doesnt sound like many wounds, but when youre not rolling to hit or wound or save they stack up suprisingly fast.
Personally, I love the idea of Executioner as a MSU/bubble wrap slayer. Smite followed by an Executioner is pretty much always going to kill a 5-man Marine unit. 2 smites and an Executioner can possibly see a 10-man unit die if you are lucky.
Running a Farseer on a bike with Doom and Executioner, I think, is the way to go. Mind War, while nice if you can invest in stacking buffs and de-buffs, personally doesn’t feel like it’ll do much unless you are targeting things like Guard commanders etc. Sure, with a Hemlock, Swooping Hawk Exarch and Embolden, you have an 8% chance of 1 shoting BobbyG, but I don’t really see it as “worth it” outside of the fun one off game where it works.
Smite spam can't be that great then, surely a dedicated shooting unit is going to be better use of points
Depends on what youre up against. Smite doesnt sound like many wounds, but when youre not rolling to hit or wound or save they stack up suprisingly fast.
So lets compare a Farseer to 4 dark reapers.
Against MEQs
Reapers do 8 shots, hit on 3+ for 5.33 hits, wound on 3+ for 3.55 wounds and they have a 5+ save for 2.3 dead
Farseer smites averaging a 2 on a D3 and can cast executioner to kill an average of 4 more. Killing 6
Against a rhino
Reapers do 4 shots, hit on 3+ for 2.66 hits, wound on a 3+ for 1.77 wounds, rhinos get a 5+ save so 1.18 go through with 3 damage for about 3.5 damage
Farseer smites for an average of 2 and executioners for an average of 2 for an average of 4 moral wounds.
In both cases farseers did more damage. No I am not taking into consideration failed psychic tests but consider for smite 1 out of 6 times you will roll a 10+ for D6 wounds. If you roll a 4+ on any one dice with a farseer you can re-roll the other to try and get that 10. The failure rate for smite is extremely low especially with rerolls.
Probably should be comparing a Farseer on bike, so 5-6 Reapers is more reasonable. A Footseer just doesn't have the range and targeting options of Reapers.
Wondering what peoples' thoughts on Irillyth are as a Phoenix Lord. With the nerfs to Spectres, his leadership debuff has become less useful, but his statline as a whole compares more favourably to just taking more Spectres now. He still seems a bit pricy for what you get, especially with no invulnerable save, but still all around solid from what I'm looking at.
In the same vein (and I know they're corsairs rather than CWE) but how people feel about the various Corsair units now that they've had their points reduced.
Farseer_V2 wrote: In the same vein (and I know they're corsairs rather than CWE) but how people feel about the various Corsair units now that they've had their points reduced.
Improved, and certainly an interesting battalion candidate, the problem as always with them is finding an HQ unit to put in there that fits thematically and isn't useless.
Farseer_V2 wrote: In the same vein (and I know they're corsairs rather than CWE) but how people feel about the various Corsair units now that they've had their points reduced.
Improved, and certainly an interesting battalion candidate, the problem as always with them is finding an HQ unit to put in there that fits thematically and isn't useless.
Yeah I tend to hang out in the periphery of 'CWE' and exist more often in the 'General Eldar' envelope (especially with Ynnari) so I think they may end up getting slotted in as a possible troop choice. I'm thinking 10 Reavers with Shard Carbines and 2 Shruiken Cannon.
Farseer_V2 wrote: In the same vein (and I know they're corsairs rather than CWE) but how people feel about the various Corsair units now that they've had their points reduced.
Improved, and certainly an interesting battalion candidate, the problem as always with them is finding an HQ unit to put in there that fits thematically and isn't useless.
Yeah I tend to hang out in the periphery of 'CWE' and exist more often in the 'General Eldar' envelope (especially with Ynnari) so I think they may end up getting slotted in as a possible troop choice. I'm thinking 10 Reavers with Shard Carbines and 2 Shruiken Cannon.
I'd consider skyreavers for the speed, since reavers can't use a transport.
In both cases farseers did more damage. No I am not taking into consideration failed psychic tests but consider for smite 1 out of 6 times you will roll a 10+ for D6 wounds. If you roll a 4+ on any one dice with a farseer you can re-roll the other to try and get that 10. The failure rate for smite is extremely low especially with rerolls.
D6 wounds on smite is 11+. I'm surprised people are still making this mistake.
Reapers do 8 shots, hit on 3+ for 5.33 hits, wound on 3+ for 3.55 wounds and they have a 5+ save for 2.3 dead
Farseer smites averaging a 2 on a D3 and can cast executioner to kill an average of 4 more. Killing 6
Against a rhino
Reapers do 4 shots, hit on 3+ for 2.66 hits, wound on a 3+ for 1.77 wounds, rhinos get a 5+ save so 1.18 go through with 3 damage for about 3.5 damage
Farseer smites for an average of 2 and executioners for an average of 2 for an average of 4 moral wounds.
Smite has an 83% chance to work. Executioner has a 69% chance to work. They both have a ~45% chance to be Denied.
Well, reapers and spears are far and away the best units in the codex (Spectres we're close before, but don't come close now). While I could definitely see some rebalancing in their future, with the silly heavy-handedness of the Spectre nerf, I worry for them. While still a very good value for their points, they're still very expensive for 1W models, and the last thing Eldar need is one of their anti-horde options to become too expensive to deal with hordes.
If you have both an Aurtarch and Farseer, if you take the wing, you can't take the novalance without giving up on a CP for the extra relic. Might be worth it, but defininitely a real cost. I'd value a single CP at about 25 points, so upgrading to a bike seer seems about fair as a tradeoff
I think I'd want to run Faolchu's Wing on a spiritseer over a farseer or autarch anyway. Farseer and autarch have access to improved mobility from their datasheets without needing a relic. Spiritseers don't have that option. While you could put the spiritseer into a transport, you then wouldn't be able to use the seer for any of its intended purposes (deny the witch/casting.)
xmbk wrote: Frowny has it. Wings have a real opportunity cost, can't just throw them on a Farseer for free.
As for Reapers and Spears being the best, don't forget Hemlocks. They rival Reapers for best, Spears are a clear third.
As good as Hemlocks are (and they are very good), I'd argue that spear's bring more to the table overall. They can grab objectives, they can deal with hordes somewhat competently, and they can tie up non-CC units in combat if they don't kill them outright. Hemlocks offer a great combination of support and firepower, but Spears give more board control.
Fafnir wrote: Well, reapers and spears are far and away the best units in the codex (Spectres we're close before, but don't come close now). While I could definitely see some rebalancing in their future, with the silly heavy-handedness of the Spectre nerf, I worry for them. While still a very good value for their points, they're still very expensive for 1W models, and the last thing Eldar need is one of their anti-horde options to become too expensive to deal with hordes.
Specters were never in the codex, unlike reapers and spears, and that will be their and every other FW unit's issue going forward.
If the Index v Codex differences are indicative of their current overall direction, in that models/options you cannot purchase in a GW store are 99% not in the codex books, then I can understand the heavy handedness of the FW points changes.
I feel they are trying to further encourage players to buy models from the codex books over FW alternatives.
As long as they continue in this direction, I wouldn't hold my breath on anything FW ever maintaining its status as a "go to" or "must have" in any army for long. And once its changed, I don't see it returning in value beyond being just expensive enough to make you second guess choosing that option over a codex option instead.
Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. But this first round of rather heavy handed CA changes to FW point values in multiple factions makes me lean that direction.
Fafnir wrote: Well, reapers and spears are far and away the best units in the codex (Spectres we're close before, but don't come close now). While I could definitely see some rebalancing in their future, with the silly heavy-handedness of the Spectre nerf, I worry for them. While still a very good value for their points, they're still very expensive for 1W models, and the last thing Eldar need is one of their anti-horde options to become too expensive to deal with hordes.
Specters were never in the codex, unlike reapers and spears, and that will be their and every other FW unit's issue going forward.
If the Index v Codex differences are indicative of their current overall direction, in that models/options you cannot purchase in a GW store are 99% not in the codex books, then I can understand the heavy handedness of the FW points changes.
I feel they are trying to further encourage players to buy models from the codex books over FW alternatives.
As long as they continue in this direction, I wouldn't hold my breath on anything FW ever maintaining its status as a "go to" or "must have" in any army for long. And once its changed, I don't see it returning in value beyond being just expensive enough to make you second guess choosing that option over a codex option instead.
Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. But this first round of rather heavy handed CA changes to FW point values in multiple factions makes me lean that direction.
I think what will be most telling is Forgeworlds first dedicated publication, if such a thing still exists. The 'Imperial Armour' equivalent for 8th edition...
I think GW make decent money off printed publications, so they would be hesitant to discontinue all FW books.
Korlandril wrote: Novalance can only be taken on a Skyrunner Autarch with a Laser Lance.
Even more, he must be <Saim-Hann>. It's a tricky relic to take without giving up doctrine bonus on him and his detachment, WL traits and so on.
Not really. Just take a Command detachment with a Skyrunner Autarch and 2 other HQs, preferably 2 more Autarchs with Reaper launchers.
Skyrunner Autarchs with Reaper launchers are the only models in the entire range that take full advantages of both the Saim-Hann bonuses anyway
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone had a game against codex Tyranids yet? How well do CWE match up in general especially in dealing with Genestealer heavy lists?
Poorly. Tyranids are basically Xenos versions of everything OP about Astra Militarum, except even more versatile.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone had a game against codex Tyranids yet? How well do CWE match up in general especially in dealing with Genestealer heavy lists?
Still trying to figure out how to deal with huge turn 1 CC alpha strikes and massive hordes.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone had a game against codex Tyranids yet? How well do CWE match up in general especially in dealing with Genestealer heavy lists?
Still trying to figure out how to deal with huge turn 1 CC alpha strikes and massive hordes.
2-3 Sacrificial Ranger units deployed about 5" away from and surrounding your army is about the best choice. It flat out stops turn 1 alpha assaults on your more valuable stuff and it leaves units out in the wind right in front of all your guns after they devour your Rangers.
Eldar should never have sacrificial units, but this edition kinda requires it.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone had a game against codex Tyranids yet? How well do CWE match up in general especially in dealing with Genestealer heavy lists?
Played against them twice (I play Ynnari FWIW) and while the games have been tough I've won both. One list was a literal gant wall with roughly 120 gants, the other was about 40 Stealers plus associated support.
2-3 Sacrificial Ranger units deployed about 5" away from and surrounding your army is about the best choice. It flat out stops turn 1 alpha assaults on your more valuable stuff and it leaves units out in the wind right in front of all your guns after they devour your Rangers.
Eldar should never have sacrificial units, but this edition kinda requires it.
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A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.
Korlandril wrote: Novalance can only be taken on a Skyrunner Autarch with a Laser Lance.
Even more, he must be <Saim-Hann>. It's a tricky relic to take without giving up doctrine bonus on him and his detachment, WL traits and so on.
Not really. Just take a Command detachment with a Skyrunner Autarch and 2 other HQs, preferably 2 more Autarchs with Reaper launchers.
Skyrunner Autarchs with Reaper launchers are the only models in the entire range that take full advantages of both the Saim-Hann bonuses anyway
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Probably better to take an Outrider, so that the Spears escorting him can benefit from rerolls. Reaper launchers still make you 6" slower, think I'd prefer the Fusion gun.
2-3 Sacrificial Ranger units deployed about 5" away from and surrounding your army is about the best choice. It flat out stops turn 1 alpha assaults on your more valuable stuff and it leaves units out in the wind right in front of all your guns after they devour your Rangers.
Eldar should never have sacrificial units, but this edition kinda requires it.
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A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.
Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.
Alpha strikes can be stalled with good deployment.
Is it considered some kind of heresy around here to field the Dark Reaper Exarch with a Shuriken Cannon as ablative wounds?
I need the 17 points saved from it (It was a Tempest Launcher before) and, while I lose some nice anti-infantry, the other 4 DR will shoot unmolested for the first two wounds they take.
2-3 Sacrificial Ranger units deployed about 5" away from and surrounding your army is about the best choice. It flat out stops turn 1 alpha assaults on your more valuable stuff and it leaves units out in the wind right in front of all your guns after they devour your Rangers.
Eldar should never have sacrificial units, but this edition kinda requires it.
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A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.
What are you talking about? Having a shield of Rangers 4-5" in front of your army guarantees that deep striking units are more than 12" away from the core of your army. It doesn't matter that the Rangers immediately die, because they WERE on the board when those units had to be deployed.
If the opponent waits a turn, GREAT, you now get more of a turn 1 advantage.
2-3 Sacrificial Ranger units deployed about 5" away from and surrounding your army is about the best choice. It flat out stops turn 1 alpha assaults on your more valuable stuff and it leaves units out in the wind right in front of all your guns after they devour your Rangers.
Eldar should never have sacrificial units, but this edition kinda requires it.
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A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.
If you're putting nothing but units on the table with a -1 at a minimum to be shot at you can stymy a lot of their shooting. That's a lot of how I cut out some of their first turn shooting and then I deal with sacrificing a few less important units to keep my drivers up and running.
A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.
Err... Units with Ranger like deployment rules are mandatory for any army that doesn't have cheap hordes for screens. They stop turn 1 deep strike shenanigans. If you don't use something like that you're not going to compete. I have considered just relying on Serpents as whatever can kill a serpent after deep striking is probably expensive enough to make it an ok exchange.
Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.
They're -1 to hit and have a 5+ save against Jormungandr shooting. Being within 12" is a given since they get to move before they shoot and you're recommending putting the Rangers even closer to them than you're own deployment zone.
Also, Biovores and Sporecysts don't care about penalties to hit against the rest of your army. Neither do Zoanthropes/Neurothropes.
I'm not sure you guys have seen a dedicated shooting Tyranid army.
Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.
They're -1 to hit and have a 5+ save against Jormungandr shooting. Being within 12" is a given since they get to move before they shoot and you're recommending putting the Rangers even closer to them than you're own deployment zone.
Also, Biovores and Sporecysts don't care about penalties to hit against the rest of your army. Neither do Zoanthropes/Neurothropes.
I'm not sure you guys have seen a dedicated shooting Tyranid army.
If it is a dedicated shooting 'Nid army, then I am not sweating their T1 Alpha Strike, since that isn't what they do.
If it is a dedicated shooting 'Nid army, then I am not sweating their T1 Alpha Strike, since that isn't what they do.
There shooting can be so powerful it is a bit alpha strikey, but yeah. They do tend to have 36" range on the really nasty stuff so staying out of range helps. I've found the Phantasm strat handy against them.
DanielFM wrote: Is it considered some kind of heresy around here to field the Dark Reaper Exarch with a Shuriken Cannon as ablative wounds?
I need the 17 points saved from it (It was a Tempest Launcher before) and, while I lose some nice anti-infantry, the other 4 DR will shoot unmolested for the first two wounds they take.
I think this was a lot more appealing with the index when Reaper Launchers were more expensive and all of the Reapers were going to be Ynnari anyway and would Soulburst if something near them died. This still seems reasonable but ultimately Reapers are just not that efficient at shooting without the Exarch contributing his tempest launcher.
DanielFM wrote: Is it considered some kind of heresy around here to field the Dark Reaper Exarch with a Shuriken Cannon as ablative wounds?
I need the 17 points saved from it (It was a Tempest Launcher before) and, while I lose some nice anti-infantry, the other 4 DR will shoot unmolested for the first two wounds they take.
I think this was a lot more appealing with the index when Reaper Launchers were more expensive and all of the Reapers were going to be Ynnari anyway and would Soulburst if something near them died. This still seems reasonable but ultimately Reapers are just not that efficient at shooting without the Exarch contributing his tempest launcher.
Well, we are talking about Warwalker with Bright Lances + sacrificial DR Exarch or Warwalker with Shuriken Cannons and Tempest Exarch. The latter sounds better, even if it doesn't help me much with anti-tank.
Now that I think about it, I could give those same SC to my Wraithknight and save 50 points from the War Walker hull I feel like I don't get much value from fielding the WW if I don't take advantage of the Bright Lance option.
While it is not strictly a tactics subject, I would invite all Eldar players to take part in the survey below and let GW know what we want from the Craftworlds range/rules moving forward:
Specters were never in the codex, unlike reapers and spears, and that will be their and every other FW unit's issue going forward.
If the Index v Codex differences are indicative of their current overall direction, in that models/options you cannot purchase in a GW store are 99% not in the codex books, then I can understand the heavy handedness of the FW points changes.
I feel they are trying to further encourage players to buy models from the codex books over FW alternatives.
As long as they continue in this direction, I wouldn't hold my breath on anything FW ever maintaining its status as a "go to" or "must have" in any army for long. And once its changed, I don't see it returning in value beyond being just expensive enough to make you second guess choosing that option over a codex option instead.
Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. But this first round of rather heavy handed CA changes to FW point values in multiple factions makes me lean that direction.
Good news! You’re wrong, at least for Shadow Spectres anyway. They were way undercosted. Now on a points/MEQ-kill basis they are on par with Reapers, which just about everyone thinks are fab. And they have a whole lot more versatility than that.
Spartacus wrote: While it is not strictly a tactics subject, I would invite all Eldar players to take part in the survey below and let GW know what we want from the Craftworlds range/rules moving forward:
If we present a united front, we CAN get our finecast Aspect Warriors replaced! Khaine wills it!
I answered finecast as the worst part of the hobby or some question worded like that and maybe another. It would make me buy more of their stuff if it was metal or plastic I hope they take this on board.
A few Rangers does absolutely nothing. They'll be dead long before the assault phase on turn 1. And that's only if it's a fighting Tyranid army. Tyranids shoot as well as AM too and can ignore pathetic Rangers to just kill your important stuff.
Err... Units with Ranger like deployment rules are mandatory for any army that doesn't have cheap hordes for screens. They stop turn 1 deep strike shenanigans. If you don't use something like that you're not going to compete. I have considered just relying on Serpents as whatever can kill a serpent after deep striking is probably expensive enough to make it an ok exchange.
Yup, Rangers help, particularly Alaitoc ones.
In my last game against Nids, I ran a layered defense and it worked really well. I ran a screen of Wave Serpents with a mix a Wraithguard and Shimmershield Avengers to protect my firebase of Reapers and Prisms. Even a charging Fex will struggle to take down a Serpent in one go. Each time a unit gets charged, it can fall back and still shoot, normally hard enough to make a big dent in whatever charged it. Wraithguard with D-sycthes are fantastic here.
The Nids will crack each layer but each one will cost them to get through and all the time my heavy units are pounding them.
I wrote a battle report here if you want to see how it went.
Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.
They're -1 to hit and have a 5+ save against Jormungandr shooting. Being within 12" is a given since they get to move before they shoot and you're recommending putting the Rangers even closer to them than you're own deployment zone.
Also, Biovores and Sporecysts don't care about penalties to hit against the rest of your army. Neither do Zoanthropes/Neurothropes.
I'm not sure you guys have seen a dedicated shooting Tyranid army.
Spears outdo them against hordes and MEQ (not even counting melee) and are more reliably durable, reapers outdo them against multi-wound units. They'd be fine at 28. 33 is way overkill.
Reapers and Spears kill better, Spiders and Spears claim objectives better. Being a better elite choice for the Eldar is not a big victory. Have seen our elites section?
They're over costed and no longer fill a role. They're bad.
I guess, if you are playing high end competitive, you might call them bad. But within the context of the Eldar codex, playing friendly competitive, calling them bad is crazy talk. They are likely the 4th best unit in the codex.
Alaitoc Rangers are -2 to-hit, so 'Nids and AM are hitting on 6's a lot. They won't make that big of a dent from shooting and thus, they are a roadblock. Plus, Hemlocks.
They're -1 to hit and have a 5+ save against Jormungandr shooting. Being within 12" is a given since they get to move before they shoot and you're recommending putting the Rangers even closer to them than you're own deployment zone.
Also, Biovores and Sporecysts don't care about penalties to hit against the rest of your army. Neither do Zoanthropes/Neurothropes.
I'm not sure you guys have seen a dedicated shooting Tyranid army.
Why would they only have a 5+ vs Jorm?
Jorm warlord trait is all units within 6" of their warlord ignore cover.
Even if Nids manage to kill all the Rangers in the shooting phase, that will happen AFTER the movement phase, meaning any charges the Nid player set up will be very unlikely since those units would be 1" away from where your Rangers were and your Rangers should be over 6" away from your army. With proper placement, no unit should be able to get within 10" of anything but the rangers.
That's the point of using Rangers as screens: they can guarantee units cannot get close enough to you in the MOVEMENT phase. Unless Nids have some way to cause damage before or during the movement phase, Nids cannot alpha strike Eldar with assault units.
And ignoring cover is nice and all, but those Jorm units will be hitting on 6's (-2 for Rangers and Alaitoc), so even then I don't think they'll kill all the Rangers in 1 go.
Bottom line, Rangers are the best screens Eldar have. They are very useful and anyone saying that they are not may as well be saying Nids auto-win against Eldar.
Galef wrote: Even if Nids manage to kill all the Rangers in the shooting phase, that will happen AFTER the movement phase, meaning any charges the Nid player set up will be very unlikely since those units would be 1" away from where your Rangers were and your Rangers should be over 6" away from your army. With proper placement, no unit should be able to get within 10" of anything but the rangers.
That's the point of using Rangers as screens: they can guarantee units cannot get close enough to you in the MOVEMENT phase.
Unless Nids have some way to cause damage before or during the movement phase, Nids cannot alpha strike Eldar with assault units.
And ignoring cover is nice and all, but those Jorm units will be hitting on 6's (-2 for Rangers and Alaitoc), so even then I don't think they'll kill all the Rangers in 1 go.
Bottom line, Rangers are the best screens Eldar have. They are very useful and anyone saying that they are not may as well be saying Nids auto-win against Eldar.
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Rangers definitely are the go-to screen unit for Eldar and are good because they fill a Troop slot.
However, it seems like you are unaware of what the Swarmlord does. He lets a single Tyranid unit move again (including Advancing) in the Shooting phase. A combination I've seen is Kraken + Jormungandr in different detachments, Jormungandr Warlord supporting Devourer Termagants to clear chaff, then Kraken Genestealers being driven forward by the Swarmlord and using the doubled-Advance-roll Stratagem to get right to the back of the enemy deployment zone. Against that particular list, a Ranger screen won't stop the Stealer bomb but it will at least cut off a second unit from making it through (i.e. Hormagaunts using that stratagem as often the Genestealer blob doesn't even need it) so it's still worth it. Tyranids can very easily clear out Alaitoc Rangers even in an alpha-strike list, all they have to do is put some of their units in a Jormungandr detachment, drop them within 12" to deny your Alaitoc rule (very easy for Tyranids) and go to town.
Just something to keep in mind. If it's not a Swarmlord list and provided you don't leave any space at all, you're fine. Even a tiny gap though, and Kraken Genestealers can very easily go right through without the Swarmlord.
xmbk wrote: They are likely the 4th best unit in the codex.
They are not in the Codex at all, actually.
I only harp on the difference because unlike everything in the actual Codex, these guys require you to cough up cash for yet another book and then special mail order them from another country (if outside the UK).
Seeing as other Codex units can fill their roll, be purchased at any local GW/FLGS and don't require a second book to be purchased, its good information for new comers to Eldar reading this forum to know.
Saves them time and money in this particular case.
Nid player here.
Just wanted to point out that while rangers are indeed a great way to block turn 1 stealers, you could instead be making a favor to hormagaunt rushes.
Using the kraken stratagem they will easily charge your rangers turn 1, and if they get to slay them, they will use another combination of stratagems wich let them engage (but not attack) targets up to 26" away. If you do that, make sure that the targets that they can reach can fly.
It's a nasty trick that sealed many games against factions without fly. Eldar can counterplay it, so deploy accordingly.
Galef wrote: Even if Nids manage to kill all the Rangers in the shooting phase, that will happen AFTER the movement phase, meaning any charges the Nid player set up will be very unlikely since those units would be 1" away from where your Rangers were and your Rangers should be over 6" away from your army. With proper placement, no unit should be able to get within 10" of anything but the rangers.
That's the point of using Rangers as screens: they can guarantee units cannot get close enough to you in the MOVEMENT phase.
Unless Nids have some way to cause damage before or during the movement phase, Nids cannot alpha strike Eldar with assault units.
And ignoring cover is nice and all, but those Jorm units will be hitting on 6's (-2 for Rangers and Alaitoc), so even then I don't think they'll kill all the Rangers in 1 go.
Bottom line, Rangers are the best screens Eldar have. They are very useful and anyone saying that they are not may as well be saying Nids auto-win against Eldar.
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Rangers definitely are the go-to screen unit for Eldar and are good because they fill a Troop slot.
However, it seems like you are unaware of what the Swarmlord does. He lets a single Tyranid unit move again (including Advancing) in the Shooting phase. A combination I've seen is Kraken + Jormungandr in different detachments, Jormungandr Warlord supporting Devourer Termagants to clear chaff, then Kraken Genestealers being driven forward by the Swarmlord and using the doubled-Advance-roll Stratagem to get right to the back of the enemy deployment zone. Against that particular list, a Ranger screen won't stop the Stealer bomb but it will at least cut off a second unit from making it through (i.e. Hormagaunts using that stratagem as often the Genestealer blob doesn't even need it) so it's still worth it. Tyranids can very easily clear out Alaitoc Rangers even in an alpha-strike list, all they have to do is put some of their units in a Jormungandr detachment, drop them within 12" to deny your Alaitoc rule (very easy for Tyranids) and go to town.
Just something to keep in mind. If it's not a Swarmlord list and provided you don't leave any space at all, you're fine. Even a tiny gap though, and Kraken Genestealers can very easily go right through without the Swarmlord.
Yeah, Kraken Stealers with Swarmy are looking at a potential charge range of 41," and an average charge range of 33". That's pretty vicious, and Rangers can't really help at all against that.
A Ranger screen spread in a 2” coherency line takes up a fair amount of space. Sure, they will likely suffer casualties from psychic and shooting, but, played correctly, you can easily add several inches onto distance the units that want to break through have to move.
I also think a second line of units with fly is super helpful, as, even if they do manage to break through and overcharge, you are able to reliably retaliate.
Nids with Swarmlord can force one unit through screens on T1 and there's not a lot you can do about it. If it's Genestealers then something's going to get wrecked. You still want rangers to prevent more than one unit getting in though. Swarmlord is also not such an obvious choice for nids anymore, he's still great but the rest of the dex got so good he has a lot more competition.
Rangers also help with getting your own deepstrikers into range on T1. I had a game against guard where we both had shooty deepstrikers (Guardians and special weapon guard) and both had scout units (Rangers and Sentinels). We both wanted to scout to prevent the opponents deep strikers, but also scout to prevent the opponents scouts preventing our own deep strikers lol. It's an interesting mini game that would have been better if the rules were clear.
Anyone know what order the different scout/infiltrate moves should be resolved?
Spoletta wrote: Nid player here.
Just wanted to point out that while rangers are indeed a great way to block turn 1 stealers, you could instead be making a favor to hormagaunt rushes.
Using the kraken stratagem they will easily charge your rangers turn 1, and if they get to slay them, they will use another combination of stratagems wich let them engage (but not attack) targets up to 26" away. If you do that, make sure that the targets that they can reach can fly.
It's a nasty trick that sealed many games against factions without fly. Eldar can counterplay it, so deploy accordingly.
How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".
Can you give a source? We found an FAQ saying to roll off for units with similar abilities but there were a couple of issues:
- The Rangers deployment and the sentinels pre-game move are not the same, so I wasn't sure If the FAQ was applicable.
- The way it was worded suggested that the winner of the roll off got to choose the order all such abilities were resolved, meaning my opponent who won the dice off chose to move 4 Sentinels before I deployed any rangers. The the FAQ seemed like it was intended for when each player only has one such unit.
It seems obvious that you should dice off and then alternate, but I couldn't find the rules for it.
Can you give a source? We found an FAQ saying to roll off for units with similar abilities but there were a couple of issues:
- The Rangers deployment and the sentinels pre-game move are not the same, so I wasn't sure If the FAQ was applicable.
- The way it was worded suggested that the winner of the roll off got to choose the order all such abilities were resolved, meaning my opponent who won the dice off chose to move 4 Sentinels before I deployed any rangers. The the FAQ seemed like it was intended for when each player only has one such unit.
It seems obvious that you should dice off and then alternate, but I couldn't find the rules for it.
I think it is stated somewhere that –
“If both players have units that are setup in this way (or similar ways), players roll off to determine who “activates” the first unit. After that they then alternate unit activation.”
Now, I’m 100% sure the wording is wrong, but, I believe the intent is that, as both forms of “movement” are done in the same “phase” (after battle begins but before 1st turn starts) then the players alternate units.
How are they engaging? Overrun specifically does not let them get within 1".
They'd then use the 3 CP stratagem to fight again, which would let them pile in and consolidate.
But they'd only be able to target the new unit if they also declared a charge against it.
Sure, but the purpose of the hormagaunts is just to tie things up. The idea is that you end up using the screening unit to slingshot your gaunts -- instead of your original 12" move, you get the extra charge distance into the screening unit, then another 12+d6" with Overrun, then another 6" pile in and 6" consolidate. Even enemy units way in the back won't be shooting next turn unless they have Fly or are tightly wrapped.
“If both players have units that are setup in this way (or similar ways), players roll off to determine who “activates” the first unit. After that they then alternate unit activation.”
Now, I’m 100% sure the wording is wrong, but, I believe the intent is that, as both forms of “movement” are done in the same “phase” (after battle begins but before 1st turn starts) then the players alternate units.
I thought I'd read that somewhere too. Some units (like kroot) have it written on the dataslate with the rule.
Good to know about Swarmlord and 'Stealer rush. I figured Nids would have something like it, I've just always managed to find ways around these kinds of tactics in the past.
Probably Rangers, then Hemlocks, then the rest of my army? Both screens are -2 to hit, so all the dakka to "clear the chaff" isn't going to be nearly as effective as the opponent hopes for. And the Hemlocks cannot be charged by 'Stealers or Hormagaunts and has a nasty overwatch against flying Tyrants.
Will have to playtest it obviously, but tactically, I am sure there is a way to prevent turn 1 charges that you do not want happening.
Units being tied up in combat isn’t really eldar’s concern. Most of the competitive units eldar take have fly (wave serpents, shining spears, all their tanks, swooping hawks, warp spiders) or can fallback and shoot still (wraithguard).
The obvious exception is dark reapers, which are the only real legitimate concern. If it’s turn one they will be in a wave serpent, and otherwise there is always the strat for them to fall back and shoot.
The termi rush is a valid tactic, but not really a worry for eldar.
Those genestealers moving across the board however...
Can you give a source? We found an FAQ saying to roll off for units with similar abilities but there were a couple of issues:
- The Rangers deployment and the sentinels pre-game move are not the same, so I wasn't sure If the FAQ was applicable.
- The way it was worded suggested that the winner of the roll off got to choose the order all such abilities were resolved, meaning my opponent who won the dice off chose to move 4 Sentinels before I deployed any rangers. The the FAQ seemed like it was intended for when each player only has one such unit.
It seems obvious that you should dice off and then alternate, but I couldn't find the rules for it.
I can't find it now. They really need to get all rules addendum in one place.
A unit cannot embark or disembark a transport in the same turn. Doesn’t say anything about a transport being disembarked from and embarked from in the same turn.
Thats how I read it anyway.
So you can’t move dark reapers out of a wave serpent and then fire and fade back in that turn for example. But you can disembark with the reapers and then have a guardian unit jump in, either before or after wave serpent move.
An ideal way to make this work would be as follows: 10 Reapers start in the Serpent a unit of Fire Dragons is in Webway reinforcement Spiritseer with Faolchu's wing or Warlock Skyrunner has Quicken.
Turn 1 the Reapers disembark and the Serpent moves as close to the Dragon's target as possible. Spiritseer or Warlock moves just behind Dragons drop in and get Quicken to be on Melta range. Dragons kill their target, then Fire & Fade into the Serpent
Wyldcarde wrote: A unit cannot embark or disembark a transport in the same turn. Doesn’t say anything about a transport being disembarked from and embarked from in the same turn.
Thats how I read it anyway.
So you can’t move dark reapers out of a wave serpent and then fire and fade back in that turn for example. But you can disembark with the reapers and then have a guardian unit jump in, either before or after wave serpent move.
Q: Can a unit that Advances or Falls Back embark
within a transport? What about if the transport has
moved before – can a unit still embark inside?
A: Yes, yes and yes (remember though that a transport
cannot both embark and disembark units in the
same turn).
FAQ made it clear that the transport cannot embark and disembark units in the same turn either.
Yes...that is the FAQ I was noting. It COULD BE as straight as you stated or It does seem the response to the main rule that one cannot jump some tac squad in a transport and then jump out....which breaks the main transport rule. So was that a clarification or a broad restriction?.
One could argue that that statement said 'embark and disembark' which COULD be different from 'disembark and embark' . That is completely different. Its like my swooping hawks jump out of tactical reserves and land from the skies. That is different from leaving the battlefield and flying into the skies. I cannot do both in the same round.
My thoughts are that you can disembark and then embark a different unit later RAW because it specifically stated you could NOT do the opposite but did not address the reverse. There is implication of the FAQ context that it was stating for the record a single unit cannot do both in the same turn.
Latro_ wrote: after looking into it seems you could do the above with RAW
the FAQ clarification is reminding you of something that is also actually wrong the rule book specifically says a'a unit' cannot embark and disembark on the same turn not unit[[s]]
cant see anything wrong with rhino with a spare seat have a captain jump in and then the 8 marines jump out
BaconCatBug wrote:The FAQ is simply wrong. It's meant to talk about the unit, not the transport itself. So it all comes down to how you interpret the text in parenthesis, either as errata grade special snowflake FAQ or as poorly worded incorrect reminder text. Discuss it pre game.
So far the concensus is that we can DISEMBARK and then EMBARK other units from the Rules forum
I think it's quite simple. If the transport had units in it earlier in the turn then it can't take new units into it. If it had units get into it earlier in the turn then they can't get out in the same turn. It's that simple.
Azuza001 wrote: I think it's quite simple. If the transport had units in it earlier in the turn then it can't take new units into it. If it had units get into it earlier in the turn then they can't get out in the same turn. It's that simple.
But that opens up a can of worms.
Lets say by some interpretation we have 2 Banshees in a Wave Serpent. They jump out. The serpent moves 20+ across the table and now want the Dire Avengers to jump in. That would work. You say no.
So lets retool this scenario to your interpretation:
The wave serpent with a loaded warlock starts next to 2 banshees . Banshees Embark ( I assume you think that is legal)....now the serpent moves across the table next to 9 Dire Avengers and ends in legal range and they wish to Embark.
Do you permit this with your interpretation? I assume you say yes. (If NO then where is the rules to prevent). So now you have an 'in' door open at both ends of this movement phase....but your rational is that there are no out doors on the same turn. Primitive design these transports are. It just seems silly.
To make it even more silly....after the Banshees embarked and the serpent moved...your saying the warlock could not get out...but 9 dire avengers could embark? Is the Warlock too pretty and needs a stool and red carpet laid out so that he can get out and there is no time for that....so the 9 Avengers just cram the door and get inside?
Now you say its not a rational, its a game mechanic it is what it is....right or wrong. So you have a RAW (which to this point CAN BE READ to ONLY prohibit a Embarking andthen Disembarking. No where does it say you cannot Disembark first and then not be permitted to embark...if you want to get down to the rules lawyering as it is written.
I think the RAI was to reinforce the idea of the game mechanic that NO unit can jump in ride for a bit and then jump out....since you have to jump out prior to the transport moving.
Shadenuat wrote: Outdated FAQ though, judging by soulburst questions which became irrelevant with Ynnari change (like charging in enemy turn with soulburst).
Its still listed on their FAQ page.
If it was outdated, it would either be removed, replaced, or a have a more recent question about the subject answered in a newer FAQ.
None of those things are true when it comes to that question and answer.
Like it or not, its the most current version of what we have.
Going back to the genestealer rush situation, I don't have the nid codex but how would they fare vs a T8 wraithlord? Is their strength above 4? A 103pts bare bones lord might be a way to plug that gap after the screen if they are S4, even with super rend or whatever the heck they get for special rules. Assuming S4 (this is moot if they are higher S though), it would take a lot of hits to bring down the Lord. He then falls back and lets your guns do the rest. maybe even equip him with a pair of flamers (bumps his points and makes him less expendable) but will remove a few stealers on the way in.
Again, this is going with little knowledge of the nid dex, so bare that in mind.
I don't think that would work too well. A Wraithlord survives okay in CC vs Genestealers -- they only expect to do about 38% of their cost in damage to one, which is pretty bad relative to how they do against everything else -- but there are two big problems with it.
First, with a Swarmlord, Genestealers can really move. You need bubble wrap to stop them, not one big model. They can just go around the Wraithlord.
Second, they're going to be able to surround the Wraithlord and stop it from falling back. If a big squad of Stealers charges a Wraithlord, they expect to almost kill it in one turn, then they can surround it and finish it off in your turn, leaving them free to do whatever they want without having taken any fire.
bullyboy wrote: Going back to the genestealer rush situation, I don't have the nid codex but how would they fare vs a T8 wraithlord? Is their strength above 4? A 103pts bare bones lord might be a way to plug that gap after the screen if they are S4, even with super rend or whatever the heck they get for special rules. Assuming S4 (this is moot if they are higher S though), it would take a lot of hits to bring down the Lord. He then falls back and lets your guns do the rest. maybe even equip him with a pair of flamers (bumps his points and makes him less expendable) but will remove a few stealers on the way in.
Again, this is going with little knowledge of the nid dex, so bare that in mind.
I can give some insight here. My buddy plays Genestealer Swarmlord nids, and I've been workshopping ways to counter them with a Wraith list for awhile. (We've played 3 games so far, since the Codex dropped.)
Dionysodorus is correct in that a Wraithlord will get surrounded & tar pitted- but since the T8 and +1 A buff, they've actually become way more resilient to it. T8 means they can survive the charge now, and if you're keeping a Spiritseer nearby, your Wraithlords are now hitting on 3s (rerolling 1s, or all if you're Iyanden with the stratagem) and wounding on 2's (If you've taken the sword). They force a respectable number of casualties each fight phase now, and that 4th attack is huge.
Running Iyanden, I was able to use 2x Wraithlords to stall out a Genestealer rush. He ended up encircling one, but wasn't able to kill them (post T8 buff). By the end of T2 his Genestealer blob was dropped to 4-5 models and pretty much a nonfactor, with both Wraithlords still standing and useful thanks to the Iyanden trait. They survived with 3W & 8W respectively, which was a huge improvement thanks to the T8. (Previously at least one would always get completely eaten up on the charge.)
The key takeaway for me in that match was the the swords, though. Wounding on 2+ vs. 3+ on Genestealers made all the difference. If you don't take the swords, then plan to have some kind of back-up to keep the Wraithlords from getting encircled, or a melee-capable unit nearby to dig them back out.
Weirdly though, I've found Flamers on Wraithlords are a trap, and pretty bad against nid swarms. There are so many pile-in / charge range shenanigans now, that a skilled opponent will always find a way to avoid the overwatch. (A big blob of Tyranids can daisy-chain a huge line, move 1" away from 3 units, declare the charge against something with no overwatch, then pile-in to everything else. When the goal is to tar-pit the Wraithlords, it's devastatingly effective, and makes your flamers a waste of points.)
My favorite TAC build post-buff has been 2x Cannons + Sword while keeping the catapults.
Major point to note, as a result of our discussion here is on page 2.
Q: If I use the Metabolic Overdrive Stratagem on a unit in the
Movement phase, and then Onslaught on the same unit in the
Psychic phase, can that unit charge?
A: No.
Q: Can a unit ever Advance twice in a single phase?
A: No.
Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the
opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their
Move characteristic?
A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would
still be the value as modified from the Advance.
For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5"
Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the
dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic
would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was
given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its
Move characteristic would still be 9".
Q: Can the Opportunistic Advance Stratagem be used when a
unit is affected by the Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, the
Overrun Stratagem, or the Mind Eater Warlord Trait?
A: Yes in all cases. Please note the FAQ above regarding
moving multiple times in a single phase.
So, basically, we can all relax now, cos that one unit that is moving 40+"'s can no longer charge as well.
Fafnir wrote: I mean, stealers still have that nasty 41" potential charge range with the Swarmlord about, so you can't just rest on your laurels.
With the Kraken advance roll of a 6, Kraken stratagem and the Swarmlord, i guess they can still move 40" + the charge range, but, would you rather use the Swarmlord ability on the Swarmlord instead? If that's the case, the Stealers are going 20" max - something which you can easily plan around.
Well, that's entirely dependant on the situation. Either way, if you see the 'stealers and Swarmy in the same list, you should at least prepare for the possibility.
Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the
opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their
Move characteristic?
A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would
still be the value as modified from the Advance.
For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5"
Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the
dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic
would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was
given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its
Move characteristic would still be 9".
Shouldn't that apply to Eldar units when they move through Quicken? I see no difference there. It could be a nice buff for us.
With the Kraken advance roll of a 6, Kraken stratagem and the Swarmlord, i guess they can still move 40" + the charge range, but, would you rather use the Swarmlord ability on the Swarmlord instead? If that's the case, the Stealers are going 20" max - something which you can easily plan around.
You are probably better off sending in the stealers first and the swarmlord after. The stealers will do more damage than the swarmlord and will keep the swarmlord alive longer.
xmbk wrote: Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.
Not sure what the combo is here myself.
Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.
They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.
With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?
It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.
With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?
It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.
Yes, and with Protect any weapon platforms in the unit will have a 2+ save as well, so worth considering using them for tanking anything that only does 1 wound and has no save modifier.
xmbk wrote: Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.
Not sure what the combo is here myself.
Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.
They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.
They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.
xmbk wrote: Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.
Not sure what the combo is here myself.
Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.
They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.
They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.
I thought you can’t select a unit to activate if the unit is not within 1” of an enemy unit at the time of its activation.
Overrun explicitly keeps you outside of 1” of the enemy unit, so, even if you use the stratagem, the unit can’t activate as it isn’t within 1” of its target at the start of the new fight phase.
The core rules say
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
The stratagem allows you to choose a unit that has already fought, but, if it doesn’t meet the initial criteria for fighting, it can’t be selected to fight again. This is because you essentially go back to “step 1” of the “fight sequence” – “Choose a unit to fight with”.
Pile in moves are the first step of combat after an eligible unit is selected to fight. You can’t use it instead put yourself in a position to be eligible to fight.
I still hold that PROPERLY placed Rangers and Hemlocks can guarantee that no Nid unit can get to the rest of you army. They only exception would be if the Nids used units with Fly (Gargoyles, Tyrants) and/or used Psychic powers to "clear" the Rangers, THEN moved those 'Stealers/Hormaguant through Even if they do clear the Rangers in the Psychic Phase, those Stealers/Hormagaunts had to be 9" away from where they were during the Move phase. Even with another movement granted by a Power, if the rest of the Eldar is 12" from where the Rangers were, then charging SHOULD be impossible on the first turn
Surely it's possible if the Eldar deploy incorrectly, but I'd hardly call it a reliable tactic to count on your opponent to make the mistake. At least not twice and if they do, you aren't playing on the same level and any victories will be shallow ones.
^^^ This I completely agree with. Besides, if things are really going to go badly, you can have up to 18.5” of space between the Ranger units and whatever you want behind them. So, even if the Rangers die to shooting or psychic, there is still a 27.5” gap the unit needs to make up. Even with a 14” move due to Hive Commander, ‘stealers still won’t be able to make the charge.
With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?
It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.
Why would anyone shoot at that instead of all your non-protected things?
They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.
You can't declare a charge on a unit more than 12" away, and you can't attack what you haven't declared a charge against. This is what makes a screen unit so effective.
xmbk wrote: Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.
Not sure what the combo is here myself.
Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.
They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.
They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.
I thought you can’t select a unit to activate if the unit is not within 1” of an enemy unit at the time of its activation.
Overrun explicitly keeps you outside of 1” of the enemy unit, so, even if you use the stratagem, the unit can’t activate as it isn’t within 1” of its target at the start of the new fight phase.
The core rules say
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
The stratagem allows you to choose a unit that has already fought, but, if it doesn’t meet the initial criteria for fighting, it can’t be selected to fight again. This is because you essentially go back to “step 1” of the “fight sequence” – “Choose a unit to fight with”.
Pile in moves are the first step of combat after an eligible unit is selected to fight. You can’t use it instead put yourself in a position to be eligible to fight.
But the Adrenaline Surge stratagem allows you to select them to fight again. Since they already fought (when wiping out the first unit), they meet the criteria.
With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?
It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.
Why would anyone shoot at that instead of all your non-protected things?
Because 20 fast moving guardians in your face poses a huge threat. Possibly bigger than the fire base sitting at the back of the table. Plus a lot of their weapons may not be able to hit anything else effectively if you drop your guardians in within 12'' of the enemy
I was trying to find a good use for guardian storm squads. I love to find a good use for them. Since i have about 20 of them and like the models. I thought maybe using 8 man squads with 2 flamers can be useful for assault screeners. I don't know how effective it would be. They would be wiped out by any decent close combat unit but they would slow them down and inflict some casualties their flamers and maybe some in close combat.
clodax66 wrote: I was trying to find a good use for guardian storm squads. I love to find a good use for them. Since i have about 20 of them and like the models. I thought maybe using 8 man squads with 2 flamers can be useful for assault screeners. I don't know how effective it would be. They would be wiped out by any decent close combat unit but they would slow them down and inflict some casualties their flamers and maybe some in close combat.
The only true and reliable use of them is to counter hth units in your gunline....screen them with Dire Avengers. The Dire Avengers may die but at least they get better overwatch shots. If the enemy did this and consolidated into the Storm Guardians or the target unit is within close range....(Advance or Quicken with Charge helps here) You have a chance to get some good use.
Take at least 15 or more. They MUST be Ulthwe. Take ONLY chainswords. Cast Enhance (possibly with Seer Council).
Use 1 CP to make them Black Guardian Strategem...use a 2nd CP to use the Disdain Strategem.
To make things way better cast DOOM on the target unit and keep an autarch handy. (these are all things in most elder lists anyways)
So now you have spent 105+ points and combined some characters for buffing to get what?
With the re rolls and then the dice proc themselves on a 4+ and hitting on 2+. 15 storm guardians will do this:
You should net only 2 misses and a total of 43 hits. With Doom you should net 32.25 T3 wounds, 24 T4/T5 wounds and 13 T6+ wounds
That should take care of a lot of units that hit your gunline. Unless they have 2+ saves most units are going to get wrecked.
Remember they have 15 pistol shots to go with this as well.
Has anyone found success with the new Fire Prisms? Do they often hold up for long enough to make their points back?
Also with two Fire Prisms using Linked Fire are you forced to fire both salvos for both Prisms at the same target? (Assuming you're declaring Linked Fire before firing the first salvo)
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone found success with the new Fire Prisms? Do they often hold up for long enough to make their points back?
Also with two Fire Prisms using Linked Fire are you forced to fire both salvos for both Prisms at the same target? (Assuming you're declaring Linked Fire before firing the first salvo)
Yes, they both have to target the same unit.
Fire Prisms are a nice distraction unit, and if they survive, give elites and vehicles a hard time.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Has anyone found success with the new Fire Prisms? Do they often hold up for long enough to make their points back?
Also with two Fire Prisms using Linked Fire are you forced to fire both salvos for both Prisms at the same target? (Assuming you're declaring Linked Fire before firing the first salvo)
Yes, they both have to target the same unit.
Fire Prisms are a nice distraction unit, and if they survive, give elites and vehicles a hard time.
I haven't tried the prisms yet, but this is my big issue with it. Yes, I can spend a CP every turn to kill the crap out of something, but it can only be that one thing.
In my local meta where tournament rounds seldom make it past turn 3 (because of time limits, not tabling), that's just not enough widespread damaging power.
I think your local meta definitely affects the effectiveness of Linked Fire if your opponents typically field many units as opposed to more elite armies/large single blobs of units. Being basically limited to deleting one unit a turn is certainly a reason to be wary, but realistically are you typically spreading your fire between your Prisms or focusing down one unit? I guess it depends on how you play or the situation but if it's usually the latter then I think being locked into one unit isn't as bad as you think.
The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.
That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.
Bharring wrote: The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.
That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.
True, there are better options out the against vehicles and MEQs when you're talking about a lone Prism. However, I don't think people would take just one Prism for their lists. If they take Fire Prisms, they take it for Linked Fire and at that point you're always taking 2. With 2 Prisms and Linked Fire they'd probably outperform most units against MEQs and vehicles.
So not sure if this was discussed earlier, but with Shadow Spectres getting hit with the nerfstick, what types of "competitive" lists are looking good now? Still reaper spam?
Wayniac wrote: So not sure if this was discussed earlier, but with Shadow Spectres getting hit with the nerfstick, what types of "competitive" lists are looking good now? Still reaper spam?
I still plan on running them. They are now only slightly overpriced as opposed to criminally cheap. Why not take them? They still fill a useful role in Alaitoc lists.
Hey all, I'd like to thank everyone who contributes here regularly. This is a great thread, and has really helped me get a handle on the new codex. I am more excited to play a Craftworld army than I have been in a long time. Anyway, I'd like to ask for a little advice. My list is spoilered below:
Spoiler:
1500 points
Biel Tan craftworld attribute for all detachments
Battalion:
Autarch w/Swooping Hawk wings (warlord/stock equipment)
Farseer on foot (stock)
Rangers x 5
Guardians x 20
-Shuriken Cannon platform x 1
Dire Avengers x 6
-Exarch w/two shuricats
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Warp Spiders x 5
-Exarch w/two guns
Dark Reapers x 5
-Exarch w/Tempest Launcher
Wave Serpents x 2
both with shuricannons x 3
Outrider Detachments
Warlock Skyrunnner
-Spear
Swooping Hawks x 6
-Exarch w/Hawk's Talon
Windriders x 3
-cats
Windriders x 3
-shuricannons
So basically, the list aims to max out on antihorde options at 1500 while also giving me the tools to deal with heavier things. Farseer typically takes Doom and something else (Fortune/Guide) and starts the game in the Serpent with the Reapers. The DAs catch a ride in the other serpent, and typically stay there until they are needed. I start the game with the Hawks, Autarch, Spiders and Guardians in reserve (1 CP to webway the Guardians into position). The Warlock takes Protect/Jinx and hides for the first turn.
I chose the Biel Tan attribute because my Craftworld color scheme is predominantly green and yellow, but I am really liking the attribute. Between the bikes, guardians, DAs, wave serpents and miscellaneous pistols and catapults, I have so much shuriken shooting that it gets a little ridiculous. The guardians dropping in and shooting at a Doomed target, with re-roll 1s from Biel Tan, is really quite nasty. If there is a good target for their shooting, I can also drop the Hawks in at the same time right behind them, since they are 24" range, and together they can really put the hurt on most light infantry (or even heavy infantry with the number of re-rolls and rends you can get, plus add Doom/Jinx if you really need something to die). Hordes are a big issue in my meta (Guard, GSC, Cultist-heavy CSM and Nids are all popular), so this set-up really works pretty well. Most of the army flies, too, so it is fairly easy to disengage if you do get charged by something.
The issue I am having is the Autarch. I love the model, but he is just not doing much here. Most of the army natively has re-roll 1s due to the Biel Tan attribute, which means he pretty much only affects Reapers, Spiders and Hawks. While re-roll 1s is nice to have on these models, it is just not really worth 100+ points (plus his 6" range pistol adds nothing when he deep strikes in 9" away). Nor is he much of a close combat threat - certainly not enough to dissuade an assault on my aspect warriors by anything moderately melee-oriented. So what to replace him with?
I do not have any Shining Spears or Hemlocks, although I have been considering proxying Harlequin skyweavers as Shining Spears, as I have 6 of those painted up. Options currently under consideration are Shadow Spectres (purchased from Forge World pre-nerf, and still haven't made it here in the mail ), another Farseer (perhaps on a bike), a foot Warlock, a Spiritseer, or perhaps a Vyper or War Walker. I also have Fire Dragons, Wraithblades and Banshees, but none of those really seem that great right now (not to mention they compete for a slot in the Serpents). Any thoughts?
Bharring wrote: The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.
That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.
Can you share what the better options are over a lone Prism for similar costs? Genuinely curious whats been hashed out without having to go back through all the pages of this thread.
EDIT TO ADD: By points, I don't mean PPW or whatever, but literally filling the 150-165 slot.
I run a list of basically grav tanks and chatacters for all of my games in 8th so far, as a counter to the horde/anti-horde meta. Always run 3 fire prisms.
Dark reapers are great for the points, but in the context of my lists they would instantly be targets for all the assault cannons, heavy bolters and small arms. So would defeat the whole strategy.
I dont usually run into the issue of massive overkill when using the stratagem. Statistically I think 2 linked prisims should just kill about 1 Russ, Razorback or Predator per turn. Obviously it varies depending on the initial roll for number of hits and damage, so youll need to develop some judgement based on the performance of the initial Fire Prism shots. If you rolled well, alls good. If you didnt, maybe hit the tank with something else first. If you rolled really badly, link in the 3rd Fire Prism.
So I had a game vs Nids. Opponent has been a friend since 2nd ed.
Some takeaways. 2000 points.
Playing all Ulthwe is a drag. He reminded me of my FNP rolls more than I did and contributed to a much longer game. I will try not to take Ulthwe again except when I plan on using black guardians with Storm Guardians.
With his horde and my horde it took us 3.5+ hours to finish 5 rounds ...and the last 2 went really fast. I almost had him tabled.
He was winning on VPs til the 5th round when I took the lead 11 to 6.
Storm Guardians sitiing behind Dire Avengers was the antidote to Genestealer rush. Between Overwatch and the Black Guardian+Disdain+ Enhance (no doom....it was his turn) The stealers fate were sealed.
The Hive Guard with the no LOS weapon with -2 AP and d3 wounds plus biovore battery were BRUTAL on my Dark Reaper squads.
The Wave Serpents ruled the day! 2 of the 4 survived.
ofc Wraithguard kill the most.
My psychis sucked badly til the last 2 turns. We had 3 perils of the warp between us, even with rerolls.
Doom ofc was the game changer when I got it off the 2 times.
He played all Behemoth btw. I was more scared of the Nids stuff I read on the forums than what he presented on the battlefield.
It was a nasty fight that wasn't decided til I removed all his big bugs. I made so many first turn mistakes I thought the game was over but rebounded by turn 2.
I won the roll but let him take first turn. Turned out to be a good move despite my poor moves after he took out my main Wave Serpent on his opening turn.
admironheart wrote: So I had a game vs Nids. Opponent has been a friend since 2nd ed.
Playing all Ulthwe is a drag. He reminded me of my FNP rolls more than I did and contributed to a much longer game. I will try not to take Ulthwe again except when I plan on using black guardians with Storm Guardians.
Figured Ulthwe would be the easiest to play. Everything has 6+ FnP unless it already has a better one. Doesn't seem hard to forget lol.
Though, yes, it is a lot of picking up dice and rolling again.
Bharring wrote: The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.
That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.
Can you share what the better options are over a lone Prism for similar costs? Genuinely curious whats been hashed out without having to go back through all the pages of this thread.
EDIT TO ADD: By points, I don't mean PPW or whatever, but literally filling the 150-165 slot.
The most comparable thing is a Crimson Hunter.
Even when using linked fire, a Prism only does a little bit better than a Hunter vs T7 3+. Without linked fire the Hunter is much better, and is even a bit better against T8 3+. The Hunter also gets a bonus vs things with Fly. The Hunter is even ~80% as good as the Prism against MEQs. At the same time, the Hunter is a lot more durable against just about everything and still hits on a 3+ after moving.
Bharring wrote: The mathhammer's been saying, outside Linked Fire at least, other options will outperform the Prism when firing at MEQs or hard targets. So the Prism, according to the numbers at least, only makes sense if you factor in the opportunity to hurt either.
That's just the mathhammer, though. Haven't fielded one enough yet to really know.
Can you share what the better options are over a lone Prism for similar costs? Genuinely curious whats been hashed out without having to go back through all the pages of this thread.
EDIT TO ADD: By points, I don't mean PPW or whatever, but literally filling the 150-165 slot.
The most comparable thing is a Crimson Hunter.
Even when using linked fire, a Prism only does a little bit better than a Hunter vs T7 3+. Without linked fire the Hunter is much better, and is even a bit better against T8 3+. The Hunter also gets a bonus vs things with Fly. The Hunter is even ~80% as good as the Prism against MEQs. At the same time, the Hunter is a lot more durable against just about everything and still hits on a 3+ after moving.
Yeah I was doing some reading last night and came to the same conclusion. Good to know I was on the right track with that.
I went ahead and found the extra points to up it to an Exarch for the re-roll 1's to squeeze into my list I want to try.
So with a few complaint threads about elder. Is this just normal or do you find in your games players go away from the match thinking that the Eldar are OP or are they generally well received?
I have almost tabled most of my opponents yet lost several of those games. I have yet to be tabled or have less units than my opponent even when I lose.
With that said I have NOT had any poor reactions to my Eldar Lists.
The only unit that I can vaguely tell that my opponents are annoyed with is how tough Wave Serpent spam can be.
(The lists with more than 2 WS are strictly due to having way too many MSUs and I need to lessen my drop count for first turn)
admironheart wrote: So with a few complaint threads about elder. Is this just normal or do you find in your games players go away from the match thinking that the Eldar are OP or are they generally well received?
I have almost tabled most of my opponents yet lost several of those games. I have yet to be tabled or have less units than my opponent even when I lose.
With that said I have NOT had any poor reactions to my Eldar Lists.
The only unit that I can vaguely tell that my opponents are annoyed with is how tough Wave Serpent spam can be.
Generally well received. There's a bit of grumbling at the cheap + powerful stratagems, (20x 4++, -1 to hit, deepstriking guardians for 3 cp, or simply linked fire), and a little flow over from previous editions. Personally, I don't run the cheesiest lists, and our meta has seen a fair share of baneblades, knights, and other "fething *******" units, so it's fine.
I've found we're strong, can be competitive, however if you avoid spamming reapers and play with grace, no-one cares.
Generally well received. There's a bit of grumbling at the cheap + powerful stratagems, (20x 4++, -1 to hit, deepstriking guardians for 3 cp, or simply linked fire),
Generally well received. There's a bit of grumbling at the cheap + powerful stratagems, (20x 4++, -1 to hit, deepstriking guardians for 3 cp, or simply linked fire),
The Lighning reflexes stratagem is particularly reviled it would seem.
I think theres something psychological about modifying your opponents to hit rolls. They feel helpless when they cant hit the perfidious eldar as often, even though something like 'gain a 4++' is actually better at mitigating damage.
I may have gone crazy, but I'm considering taking a warlock conclave.
I wanted to try and do something interesting with Ulthwe as they seem the most boring Craftworld to build a list around.
I'm thinking:
Eldrad 4x Warlocks in a conclave
With the seer council stratagem for 1CP on these two units you can get +1 to cast on 5 psy powers. The concordance of power strat may also be handy for 36" range debuffs.
The obvious problem is that the warlocks die to a stiff breeze. They will need to start in a Waveserpent (not really a tax as serpents are so good), and need to try and hide out of line of sight. At 120pts it won't hurt too much when they get blown away.
Anyone had any luck with the conclave? I think a unit of 2 for 60pts, hiding at the back doing 36" range Jinx is decent, but I'm not sure about bigger units.
I ONLY take a conclave of 2. But I take it in every list !!! It works wonders. My opponents have yet to target them as the Reapers and such seem more important to them.
The ability to cast 36" or get +1 is very helpful on a unit that can pick which of 2 powers is the preferred choice for that round. 1 Warlock can never be as useful or even as resilient as long as there is LOS blocking terrain to hide in.
That said Quicken is obvious on them. I like Conceal for nearby units. However after my last game I am thinking more about a second Protect/Jinx to get both off the same turn and making the other power Enhance. I only use Enhance once or twice a game and only on my 105 point Storm Guardian anti CC unit to charge and slaughter those that get in my gunline.
admironheart wrote: So with a few complaint threads about elder. Is this just normal or do you find in your games players go away from the match thinking that the Eldar are OP or are they generally well received?
I have almost tabled most of my opponents yet lost several of those games. I have yet to be tabled or have less units than my opponent even when I lose.
With that said I have NOT had any poor reactions to my Eldar Lists.
The only unit that I can vaguely tell that my opponents are annoyed with is how tough Wave Serpent spam can be.
(The lists with more than 2 WS are strictly due to having way too many MSUs and I need to lessen my drop count for first turn)
Overall I think the major complaints I've had from my playgroup is the stratagems - they tend to take units that are solid and turn them into game changers and I think that can be frustrating. That and being a Ynnari player there's some grumbling about using CWE Stratagems on Ynnari units. All that said my play group is pretty competitive (I routinely play against Bobby G Razorback lists and Primarch + Knight set ups) so its mostly good nature'd and then spending time figuring out how to counter play it. I do currently have the longest win streak at the club so there's also some desire to boot off the king of the hill.
I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon
Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?
Puganaut wrote: Has anyone got much experience with Saim-Hann?
I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon
Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?
I'm not a fan of one shot weapons (lances) that are at a near constant -1 to hit because you are often moving. Except on Crimson Hunters since their BS is already so high.
Though I suppose if you found a spot you could post up and not need to move, its nice since with their high speed when you do need to eventually move you can get re-positioned in a hurry.
Puganaut wrote: Has anyone got much experience with Saim-Hann?
I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon
Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?
I'm not a fan of one shot weapons (lances) that are at a near constant -1 to hit because you are often moving. Except on Crimson Hunters since their BS is already so high.
Though I suppose if you found a spot you could post up and not need to move, its nice since with their high speed when you do need to eventually move you can get re-positioned in a hurry.
I think the OP’s reason for doing Saimm-Hain is that their vypers don’t incur a penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
Puganaut wrote: Has anyone got much experience with Saim-Hann?
I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon
Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?
I'm not a fan of one shot weapons (lances) that are at a near constant -1 to hit because you are often moving. Except on Crimson Hunters since their BS is already so high.
Though I suppose if you found a spot you could post up and not need to move, its nice since with their high speed when you do need to eventually move you can get re-positioned in a hurry.
I think the OP’s reason for doing Saimm-Hain is that their vypers don’t incur a penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
Clearly I need a second cup of coffee this morning. I totally didn't see the Siamm-Hain part mentioned.
I was thinking about something similar, possibly with two windrider units and one vyper unit, and the vypers with catapults since they want to stand off at range anyway. It’s only 5 points, but when you’re talking about 3-4 models then that adds up.
Also I’ve been having good experiences with my ulthwe bike autarch, with just the (index version) laser lance and fusion gun. Running around off on his own with the phoenix gem, he’s a real workhorse of breaking down enemy characters and finishing off tough enemy units. With the SH craftworld buff and the novalance, seems like he’d be even more effective.
I have been using an Autarch on Jetbike with Lance and Shimmerplume helm and he is doing great work for me. He buffs my shooty units early on and then acts to counter-charge anything getting too close.
So far his tally of kills across just 2 games include a Tervagon, a Swarmlord, finishing off a Paladin squad and (best of all) charging and destroying a Stormraven. Granted all the above had been softened up first but he definitely packs quite a punch on the charge and the Novalance version even moreso.
Sadly the Dreadknight Grand Master proved too much for him but he cost twice as many points so that is not exactly surprising.
Titanicus wrote: Am i currently crazy or is someone at gw. Why is the phantom titan 400 points more than a revenant?
Forgeworld points have gone a bit mad, especially with chapter approved. I think they're not too concerned with balancing those big units as they're very rare in conventional games, or they're preemptively balancing for some big apocalypse kind of rollout next year. Just speculation
Puganaut wrote: Has anyone got much experience with Saim-Hann?
I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon
Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?
This is almost my newest detachment, except I don't have any cannons or scatter lasers for my bikes so I was going to go with a unit of Warp Spiders plus the vypers and Autarch.
And I was taking 2 units of Banshees inside a Saim-Hann WS as well.
Then I was going to try a gunline with Alaitoc to try to see if the Vypers could be spared for more juicy targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, REMEMBER if your Autarch is from one faction, he will be able to do little in buffing for your other faction units.
Puganaut wrote: Has anyone got much experience with Saim-Hann?
I feel like an outrider detachment of something like:
Autarch Skyrunner w/novalance
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Vypers: 2x bright lance + cannon
Windriders: 3x shuri cannon
Maybe chuck in a farseer skyrunner for survivability, but for under 500 points that's a surprisingly durable, mobile and heavy-hitting little detachment without using spears. Is it competitive at all?
This is almost my newest detachment, except I don't have any cannons or scatter lasers for my bikes so I was going to go with a unit of Warp Spiders plus the vypers and Autarch.
And I was taking 2 units of Banshees inside a Saim-Hann WS as well.
Then I was going to try a gunline with Alaitoc to try to see if the Vypers could be spared for more juicy targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, REMEMBER if your Autarch is from one faction, he will be able to do little in buffing for your other faction units.
I'm going to give it a shot too, might use scat bikes to make full advantage of the rule, and because I still own scat bikes. I think the autarch will get enough value going off with the detachment, gunline should perform well enough without him?
I have found Fire Prisms great IF you have the CPs to spend. 4 shots at your choice of profile rerolling both to hit and to wound. Only a smidge over 300 points for the pair.
War walkers are good for spamming Brightlances. Reapers are great I do not deny but maxing out at AP-2 means that tougher vehicles are always going to be a slog. Put a bunch of Brightlances on a War Walker squadron and cast Guide for some seriously focussed anti-tank firepower. Plus the Walkers can move on in your Turn 1 meaning you opponent cannot alpha them if they get the first turn.
Gunlines can be quite awesome for Eldar. Warwalkers are not trash at all, in fact they can be incredibly useful.
Beil-tan craftworld, take a farseer as your warlord and give him Natural Leader, Guide, and Doom or Fortune depending on what your feeling. Take 2 squads of 3 warwalkers each, equip them however you want, I take missile launchers but bright lances or shuriken cannons are both options as well depending on your situation. Use natural leader on squad 1, guide on squad 2, enjoy rerolling all failed hits for both squads.
Follow that up with 30 dire avengers, add 2 wraith lords with 2 shuriken cannons each, and 3 wave serpents with shuriken cannons and bright lances, and you have a heavy gunline. That's what my basic 2000 point eldar list is and I have not lost with this list since I got the 6 warwalkers in my meta, list is 5 / 0 vs Space Marines, Chaos Deamons, Tyrnaids, and Death Guard. Granted no Mortarion, and deamons was a one sided battle, but a win is a win.
War walkers are the best brightlance platforms period. They have the option to flank to mitigate alpha strike and tend to get ignored in favor of the flashy units. They also are good targets for guide and fortune, as you buff two or three vehicles with one power. And their profile belies their resilience.
They are no win condition by themselves but they are a solid workhorse and a unit of three with lances eats a rhino chassis a turn.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: War walkers are the best brightlance platforms period. They have the option to flank to mitigate alpha strike and tend to get ignored in favor of the flashy units. They also are good targets for guide and fortune, as you buff two or three vehicles with one power. And their profile belies their resilience. They are no win condition by themselves but they are a solid workhorse and a unit of three with lances eats a rhino chassis a turn.
I disagree that they are the "best" BL platform. They are one of the best, sure, but THE best is a Crimson Hunter. It's tougher and hits on 3+, instead of 4+ (because even flanking counts as moving) A CH Exarch cost 5pt less than 2 BLWWs and while it has 2 BLs and a Pulse laser instead of 4 total BLs, the damage output is much, much more reliable because if its durability, hitting on 3+ while moving AND re-rolling 1s to hit.
The only thing that makes a WW more appealing it the fact that you can spend less points and get 1 guaranteed volley off before the opponent can direct fire to it, even if that volley is far, far less affective as a CH.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: War walkers are the best brightlance platforms period. They have the option to flank to mitigate alpha strike and tend to get ignored in favor of the flashy units. They also are good targets for guide and fortune, as you buff two or three vehicles with one power. And their profile belies their resilience.
They are no win condition by themselves but they are a solid workhorse and a unit of three with lances eats a rhino chassis a turn.
I disagree that they are the "best" BL platform. They are one of the best, sure, but THE best is a Crimson Hunter. It's tougher and hits on 3+, instead of 4+ (because even flanking counts as moving)
A CH Exarch cost 5pt less than 2 BLWWs and while it has 2 BLs and a Pulse laser instead of 4 total BLs, the damage output is much, much more reliable because if its durability, hitting on 3+ while moving AND re-rolling 1s to hit.
The only thing that makes a WW more appealing it the fact that you can spend less points and get 1 guaranteed volley off before the opponent can direct fire to it, even if that volley is far, far less affective as a CH.
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Crimson hunters all the way, I've been taking an airwing detachment with 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter and it's been doing a lot of work for me.
I've been running 3 War Walkers with Brightlance/Starcannon each for a couple of games now and I love them. The price reduction really helped. I'm actually considering to try them with all Starcannons for a game or two.
Must admit I've been playing Space Marines/Chaos a lot and marines/terminators in cover can be really difficult to kill.
Other options might be better per point and I'm often running a unit of Dark Reapers/a Hemlock as well, but instead of repeating these I'm adding the Walkers for a little bit of diversity. Call it a style option and not the most competitive, but while other units might be better on paper they also offer some advantages themself.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: War walkers are the best brightlance platforms period. They have the option to flank to mitigate alpha strike and tend to get ignored in favor of the flashy units. They also are good targets for guide and fortune, as you buff two or three vehicles with one power. And their profile belies their resilience.
They are no win condition by themselves but they are a solid workhorse and a unit of three with lances eats a rhino chassis a turn.
I disagree that they are the "best" BL platform. They are one of the best, sure, but THE best is a Crimson Hunter. It's tougher and hits on 3+, instead of 4+ (because even flanking counts as moving)
A CH Exarch cost 5pt less than 2 BLWWs and while it has 2 BLs and a Pulse laser instead of 4 total BLs, the damage output is much, much more reliable because if its durability, hitting on 3+ while moving AND re-rolling 1s to hit.
The only thing that makes a WW more appealing it the fact that you can spend less points and get 1 guaranteed volley off before the opponent can direct fire to it, even if that volley is far, far less affective as a CH.
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Point taken, CHs are superior in most regards. Small point in defense of walkers is holding objektives and achieving linebreaker.
I'm a big fan of fire Prisms. They have the advantage of being able to get rerolls without relying on psychic powers which is pretty important. Firstly because psychic powers can fail or be denied, secondly because you can only cast Guide and Doom once per turn. So if you have a unit of reapers/war walkers and a Guide+Doom seer you will get diminishing returns by adding a second unit of reapers/war walkers, whereas adding fire Prisms will give you everything shooting with rerolls. Prisms also work nicely with Jinx cast at 36" from a conclave against armies with good Psychic defense- you can Jinx Magnus but you will struggle to get Doom off on him, Prisms care not.
Against Nids recently I used 10 Swooping Hawks with Doom and Guide to decimate a unit of Gants, whilst 3 Fire Prisms linked fire to take out a Genestealer unit. A conclave had cast Jinx on the Stealers form outside the (-2 to hit) Hive Tyrants deny range. Getting to reroll hits and wounds with all of it felt good!
Technically no, but the Biel Tan warlord trait is pretty much guaranteed guide and doesn't stop you casting actual guide.
This. That's what I was talking about with garunteed guide. It has the same effect for free, no psychic test required. I use the warlord trait on one squad and guide on the other. The wlt is going to go off at least.
Tried out a list with Wild Riders and Fieldcraft. I did not have enough CPs but the Saim-Hann is a nice nice detachment for vypers.
The Nova Lance Autarch took out over 400 points of ork characters.
Only 1 wave serpent and no Dark Reapers. Took a lot of Hawks and Guardians and my first Shining spear unit.
Close on VPs but he was down to 4 grots after 4 turns. I think I had 18 and he had 17 points (ITC scenario)
4 Warp Boyz is just evil and he had a pair of Forgeworld burner units...those were very ugly.....I rolled horrible except for my first phoenix lord Experience. Baharoth had 2 wounds left and I decided to use my last cp to reroll his save. From then on he made all his saves and made the final tank kill to give me the VPs to win the match.
Alaitock and Vectored Engines or FlickerJump+Alaitoc and of course the stratagem Lightning Fast Reflexes are just too much for orks to handle with shooting.
Shining Spears did their duty and died 1st turn. The Vypers and War Walkers never even got targeted. If they did not miss so horribly mid game it could have gone better. They finished off 2 of his last 3 pieces on turn 3.
Very fun game but orks don't play nice!!! Grots were the MVPs!!!!
I wouldn't get my hopes up. He costs far too much, does far too little, cannot be supported by anything in his own army, and is so slow that he'll never get a chance to do anything meaningful anyway.
), another Farseer (perhaps on a bike), a foot Warlock, a Spiritseer, or perhaps a Vyper or War Walker. I also have Fire Dragons, Wraithblades and Banshees, but none of those really seem that great right now (not to mention they compete for a slot in the Serpents). Any thoughts?
