So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.
admironheart wrote: So my thoughts on the Avatar are the same as yours. My first game with him saw zero shooting vs him even when it was possible. He was just swamped with guardsmen and he killed 20 points per fight phase an my opponent was more than happy with that....
Can someone help me out here. I was thinking of webway strike with 20 guardians and 2 platforms.
But what about a use of the Webway and 24 Storm Guardians.? With 2 fusion guns or not ....even with chainswords....is there any tactical use for this maneuver?
Sounds like you drove the Avatar right into the swamp without doing anything to bring it down, first. Shirken weaponry should make short work of guard.
Remember that eldar is all about putting the right gun where it needs to be. Avatar vs conscripts is not that.
Isn't there also a stratagem to fall back and shoot/charge afterwards? Not sure if the Avatar can leverage it off hand... But you could have gotten a melee support unit in to take over for the Avatar, then moved him out into tanks or something more valuable.
The Avatar is never the right tool for anything. It's far too slow to keep up with any of its intended targets. Nothing should really get into combat with it unless your opponent lets it.
Wayniac wrote: So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.
I know exactly what you mean. Shuricannon spam looks great on paper, but then you realize how little anit-tank you get.
I actually think Shuricannons are a "clean-up" weapon. rather than your first choice. Have a few here and there and use them to fire at vehicles that only have a few wounds left (or that are close to being crippled), but only after you have exhausted all your dedicated anti-tank.
Shadenuat wrote: Heh, I wonder how people played before when most eldar units were actually hitting on 4s because of BS3+ everywhere.
I remember those days. Guardian jetbikes (they were not called windriders back then) could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bike and they only hit on 4+, yet many players (including myself) still took several units of them.
Wayniac wrote: So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.
Shuriken catapults are surprisingly effective anti-tank weapons, and become great with Doom. I will gladly throw Guardians at a Land Raider if it's Doomed. Like, Guardians pay 54 ppw against T8 2+ normally, and only 29 ppw if it's Doomed. A stationary twin BL War Walker (this is about as efficient as lances get) pays 46 ppw normally, and 31 ppw if Doomed. Against T7 3+ the Guardians pay 31/19 ppw while the War Walker pays 29/22 ppw. The shuriken rule loads a weapon's damage into the 6 to-wound, which means that shuriken weapons lose effectiveness only very slowly as toughness increases as long as AP-3 is useful. Shuriken cannons aren't good anti-tank, however, since you have to pay a lot more for them per shot and the higher strength doesn't matter much (a catapult and cannon are almost the same per shot against a Doomed Land Raider). But the point is that you can have good anti-tank with a mobile shuriken-based list as long as you have plenty of Guardians or maybe Dire Avengers. Shining Spears are also incredibly good at killing tanks. Like, more efficient than Fire Dragons good.
Galef wrote: I remember those days. Guardian jetbikes (they were not called windriders back then) could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bike and they only hit on 4+, yet many players (including myself) still took several units of them.
Well, they were Troops.
I'm still butthurt that even with new codex bikes do not count as objective secured unit even in Saim-Hann detachment.
Galef wrote: I remember those days. Guardian jetbikes (they were not called windriders back then) could only take 1 Shuricannon per 3 bike and they only hit on 4+, yet many players (including myself) still took several units of them.
Well, they were Troops.
I'm still butthurt that even with new codex bikes do not count as objective secured unit even in Saim-Hann detachment.
I know what you mean. 7th ed troop Windriders were definitely broken, but with all the changes made to them in 8th, Windriders should have been able to be Troops and/or get Objective Secured for Saim-Hann. Same goes for Iyanden Wraithguard.
Wayniac wrote: So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.
Shuriken catapults are surprisingly effective anti-tank weapons, and become great with Doom. I will gladly throw Guardians at a Land Raider if it's Doomed. Like, Guardians pay 54 ppw against T8 2+ normally, and only 29 ppw if it's Doomed. A stationary twin BL War Walker (this is about as efficient as lances get) pays 46 ppw normally, and 31 ppw if Doomed. Against T7 3+ the Guardians pay 31/19 ppw while the War Walker pays 29/22 ppw. The shuriken rule loads a weapon's damage into the 6 to-wound, which means that shuriken weapons lose effectiveness only very slowly as toughness increases as long as AP-3 is useful. Shuriken cannons aren't good anti-tank, however, since you have to pay a lot more for them per shot and the higher strength doesn't matter much (a catapult and cannon are almost the same per shot against a Doomed Land Raider). But the point is that you can have good anti-tank with a mobile shuriken-based list as long as you have plenty of Guardians or maybe Dire Avengers. Shining Spears are also incredibly good at killing tanks. Like, more efficient than Fire Dragons good.
This matches my experiences. I think Shuriken Cannons may be slightly better vs T3-5 and T8-11, but they have an associated cost. No one quivered at my 2 Shuriken Cannons in the 20 Guardian blob, but they did grumble a bit at the pile of Catapults unloading. Shuriken Cannons are nice as a touch for the mobile units: Guardian weapon platforms, War Walkers, Wave Serpents, etc. My feeling about high Shuriken weapon lists is that they are our highest rate of fire. What's good right now? Masses of bodies. What does Eldar have that is good for clearing that mess out? Shuriken Catapults. Sorry Swooping Hawks, you're not the best... but at least you're not BAD!
Weight of Fire is important in this game, right now, isn't it?
Shuriken (Catapults and Cannons) both seem to have a fair bit of upside against most things they engage, mainly because you're relying on 1) your opponent to fail AP 0 saves, and 2) rolling 6's. Unload some Guardians on a Rhino... toss a little psychic support for lawls (because you did bring Psykers, right?), and be surprised how well those little guns can do.
It is like a lasgun, only instead of wounding on 6s... it practically kills on 6s.
Edit:
As an afterthought...
What about Twin-catapult Windriders? Maybe take 1 Cannon, if even that. The cost stays low, you get a mobile platform to drive some weight of fire around. 9 points/catapult. Slightly more than a guardian, with better stats.
Instead of lamenting over loss of Scatter bikes, or that Shuri-cannon bikes getting deleted too easily... maybe just cheap them instead.
They look good on paper (like 11.5 points DAs but with +1T and no transport), but there is a chance anything competent in melee would just multicharge-delete them next turn since they don't have move-shoot-move rule anymore.
What about Twin-catapult Windriders? Maybe take 1 Cannon, if even that. The cost stays low, you get a mobile platform to drive some weight of fire around. 9 points/catapult. Slightly more than a guardian, with better stats.
Instead of lamenting over loss of Scatter bikes, or that Shuri-cannon bikes getting deleted too easily... maybe just cheap them instead.
Yeah, I think this is probably the best way to take Windriders, it just still isn't all that great. Note that they're 23 points apiece, not 18 -- the twin catapults are 5. You can pay 8 points and upgrade to Spears, which is a no-brainer. I could believe that Spears are a little too cheap but Windriders are still significantly overpriced. At 18 they'd look a lot better, despite their vulnerability to plasma. Ultimately, Guardians, Dire Avengers, and Windriders are more-or-less suicide units. Their value to you is almost entirely in their offense, and if they don't die immediately after shooting it's because your strike was so effective that there's nothing to shoot back at them. Dire Avengers and catapult Windriders are going to take a backseat to Guardians as long as Guardians are a significantly cheaper way to deliver catapult fire. Yes, they (and Avengers) need a Serpent (or webway strike), but Serpents are good. And Windriders are really vulnerable to your opponent's first turn shooting. In many ways they're less durable than Guardians, and being able to start shooting on turn 1 is not that big of a deal when the Guardians could just sit safely inside their Serpents and wait for turn 2 (plus then the Serpents can charge in and try to keep the Guardians alive for turn 3).
The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead. Personally, I'll still be using 12 Windriders in my casual lists because that has always been my core army since 4th, but they are not worth my competitive list in 8th.
Here is a question for you (it is Ynarri query but specifically relates to Craftworld Stratagems)
If you take a Ynarri Detachment, then in theory each unit in the detachment can be from a different Craftworld (as you still get to allocate the key word, they just don’t benefit from the Craftworld traits and abilities)
So if you take a Brigade then in theory you can include in the detachment an Iyanden spirit seer and a unit of Saim Hann Shining Spear squad, opening up the use of their specific Craftworld Stratagems for them.
Am I understanding that correctly? Does make a Ynarri Detachment to be able to make best use of the various Craftworld stratagems and still be battleforgef and SfD to boot.
Drake003 wrote: Here is a question for you (it is Ynarri query but specifically relates to Craftworld Stratagems)
If you take a Ynarri Detachment, then in theory each unit in the detachment can be from a different Craftworld (as you still get to allocate the key word, they just don’t benefit from the Craftworld traits and abilities)
So if you take a Brigade then in theory you can include in the detachment an Iyanden spirit seer and a unit of Saim Hann Shining Spear squad, opening up the use of their specific Craftworld Stratagems for them.
Am I understanding that correctly? Does make a Ynarri Detachment to be able to make best use of the various Craftworld stratagems and still be battleforgef and SfD to boot.
No it does not work that way. In order to use CW Stratagems, you need at least 1 CW Detachment. By having a single Ynnari unit in the detachment, it automatically disqualifies it from being a CW detachment.
However, if you have at least 1 CW detachment with no Ynnari units, but a separate detachment with Ynnari, then you do have access to CW Stratagems and they can affect Ynnari units so long as they have the appropriate keywords. Bout you would only get access to the CW stratagem of the CW you choose for the 1 CW detachment.
In order to get access to all CW specific stratagems, you would have to have 6 detahcments: 1 Ynnari and 1 for each of the 5 CWs. Matched play only suggests 3 detachments.
Sorry I should have quantified that the army overall does indeed contain an Alaitoc Air Wing Detachment to unlock Craftworld Stratagems, with Ynarri Brigade to generate CPs with a single larger unit of each Spectres, Spears and Dark Reapers and (Black) guardians as targets for key psychic powers and Stratagems.
So wanted to check that both the Ulthwe Guardians and Saim Hann Spears can benefit from their respective Stratagems.
Sorry I should have quantified that the army overall does indeed contain an Alaitoc Air Wing Detachment to unlock Craftworld Stratagems, with Ynarri Brigade to generate CPs with a single larger unit of each Spectres, Spears and Dark Reapers and (Black) guardians.
So wanted to check that both the Ulthwe Guardians and Saim Hann Spears can benefit from their respective Stratagems.
There's a lot of Craftworlds mentioned in that. Make sure to know that Craftworld traits are by detachment, not by unit. I'm also pretty sure being Ynnari revokes their Craftworld trait, as well.
If you really want to cheese Ynnari, take 3 Warlocks or Spirit Seers in a Craftworld Supreme Command Detachment, and make the rest of your army Ynnari as you please.
I think the Ynnari guys already got the boot from here And I prefer pure Craftworld lists, too... especially being Biel-tan.
Yes it is not the traits I am looking at, purely the relevant Craftworld keyword which they keep when they are chosen as per of a Ynarri Detachment.
The advantage of the Brigade I was describing above is not the various craftworld attributes but purely the Stratagems that are opened up, both in qty of CPs and selection of Craftworld specific Stratagems in concert with generic Craftworld Stratagems.
Sorry I should have quantified that the army overall does indeed contain an Alaitoc Air Wing Detachment to unlock Craftworld Stratagems, with Ynarri Brigade to generate CPs with a single larger unit of each Spectres, Spears and Dark Reapers and (Black) guardians as targets for key psychic powers and Stratagems.
So wanted to check that both the Ulthwe Guardians and Saim Hann Spears can benefit from their respective Stratagems.
From what you describe, you only get access to the generic CW stratagems and the Alaitoc ones, because you do not have any Ulthwe or Saim-Hann DETACHMENTS.
Having Ulthwe or Saim-hann units does not get you access to the stratagems. You need a detachment full of units with the same CW keyword and NO Ynnari in order to get the stratagem.
EDIT: actually, you may have a point. Having a CW detachment (like an Alaitoc Flyer detachment) technically grants access to ALL CW stratagems. You may have found an interesting loop-hole
Galef wrote: The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.
Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.
Galef wrote: The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion
Yeah, that's another thing. Why take troops with shuriken catapults when they don't give you any command points.
How do you people like Spiders now?
5 Spiders with Exarch & 2 guns: 98 points, 6 wounds, 12 shots rending -4, deep strike, better save, can take cover, flickerjump, shoot after fallback, re-roll morale.
3 windriders with SC: 84 points, 6 wounds, 9 shots, higher T but lower save, etc.
That is exactly where I am coming from. RAW simply having a Craftworld detachment unlocks access to all Craftworld stratagems, you just need to meet the criteria to use each one.
So having Ynarri Detachment with a mix looks to me like you can use even though with various Craftworld criteria aslong as you note the relevant Craftword key word for each unit.
Knight wrote: Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.
Yeah, my Windriders are the old plastics (the same ones that the Shining Spears still come with) and I've added DE Scourge heads on them. It probably would not be hard to glue a spear onto them and call them Shining Spears since technically the majority of the model is the same as the current Spears and nothing like the current Windriders
That is exactly where I am coming from. RAW simply having a Craftworld detachment unlocks access to all Craftworld stratagems, you just need to meet the criteria to use each one.
So having Ynarri Detachment with a mix looks to me like you can use even though with various Craftworld criteria aslong as you note the relevant Craftword key word for each unit.
Not just me then. Certainly makes filling Brigade very easy and cheap, allowing more points to be spent on your key units to benefit from SfD. Cheap 35 Troop units, 30pt elites unit, and 20pt fast attack unit, can really pile your points into the real hard hitters (Reapers, Spectres, Spears and even Black guardians now with Stratagems)
Wayniac wrote: So I keep thinking to take shuriken cannons everywhere I can because of Battle Focus or because things want to be mobile. Like guardian weapon platforms, wraithlords, war walkers, even wave serpents, I keep gravitating back to taking shuriken cannons but this is leaving me inadequate with anti elite/anti-tank things.
I agree, a lot of the "classic" Eldar heavy weapon caddies do better with Shuricannons than other weapons. While weight of fire is good, I agree it can leave you feeling a bit under-equipped to deal with tough targets.
My solution is Dark Reapers, Hemlocks, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons and Fire Prisms. All these units offer solutions to units that you will struggle to take down with Shuricannons alone. 2 Fire Prisms with the Linked Fire stratagem effectively count as having both Guide and Doom and each can fire twice. Also you can get away with only moving one of them to get LOS. A 4+ to hit doesn't sting quite so much with rerolls.
Reapers always hit on a 3+ and are probably more reliable than Starcannons IMHO. They also have the flexibility to take on heavier targets if needed and provide decent anti-air. I convert and AML Exarch years ago that now suddenly has a stratagem to help him down aircraft.
Hemlocks are a steal at 200 points and I can honestly see myself putting one in every list. Wraithguard and Fire Dragons fill a similar niche and provide something to put in those Shuricannon Wave Serpents.
Even with the price cuts in the Codex, I don't feel that Brightlances and Starcannons fill a role that cannot be performed better by other weapons.
Galef wrote: The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.
Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.
As long as Shining Spears have those old, ugly models it's like they didn't exist for me. People keep swearing by their rules and I couldn't bear myself to field them in their current form.
Galef wrote: The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.
Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.
As long as Shining Spears have those old, ugly models it's like they didn't exist for me. People keep swearing by their rules and I couldn't bear myself to field them in their current form.
I actually kind of like them, the riders themselves at least. Looks a little like a Eldarish jousting knight without being blatant and obvious about it. Mine are all old and metal, I don't know how the mold has stood up to the tests of time and finecast.
Those old style Jetbikes are a bit ugly though they could certainly use an update.
Galef wrote: The biggest deterrent for Windriders is that they do not fill minimum slots in a Battalion like DAs and Guardians. Sure you could use an Outrider, but not only are you gimping yourself on CPs but why not just take Spears instead.
Spears have antiquated models, although now that you mentioned it I think most of my regular opponents will have no problems with me using plain windriders as spears.
As long as Shining Spears have those old, ugly models it's like they didn't exist for me. People keep swearing by their rules and I couldn't bear myself to field them in their current form.
I actually kind of like them, the riders themselves at least. Looks a little like a Eldarish jousting knight without being blatant and obvious about it. Mine are all old and metal, I don't know how the mold has stood up to the tests of time and finecast.
Those old style Jetbikes are a bit ugly though they could certainly use an update.
Isn't the only difference between wind riders and shining spears that the guy on the bike is holding a lance? Oh, and maybe a little flag on the back?
This seems like the easiest conversion ever. I converted 3 of my old guardian jetbikes into singing-spear seer council warlocks years ago, and it can only be easier now that there is new wind-rider bike models and actual warlock on jetbike model to kitbash together.
I’m looking at my giant pile of painted warlocks (left over from Ulthwe Strike Force days), and looking for dangerous assaulty things to put into Wave Serpents for a mechanized assault army and wondering about a 10-warlock conclave.
Before you scoff, hear me out. In my meta I struggle with high-toughness characters with crazy effective saves (Guilliman and Magnus mainly) and the occasional big bug with venomthrope/malanthrope shrouding, and the odd superheavy.
So 10 warlocks jump out of a wave serpent, do a d6 mortal wound destructor, and pile into the character with 20 melee attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s. No AP, but these characters never have a save worse than 3+ anyway. Expected about 13 or 14 wounds, 2 or 3 pass through on a 2+ save, about 4 on a 3+.
So that already with the smite is maybe 5-7 wounds putting a decent hurt on the 9-wound characters (and probably taking down any lesser character).
Now add jinx, which the conclave can cast themselves in addition to destructor. Now add enhance, which the warlocks can also cast on themselves the same phase as jinx and destructor. The numbers start to look really good. Now Guilliman is trying to roll 15 or 18 3+ saves, after already having taken 3 or 4 mortal wounds.
Or, if it looks like a long fight, the conclave can cast protection on itself (instead of enhance) for some 3+ invulnerables.
And then you can add additional gravy on top of that: put a farseer in the serpent for seer council strategem and the option to doom the target. Put an autarch in the area to buff the hit rolls. None of this is really necessary—the warlocks can nearly do it on their own—but you need HQs anyway and they need to be in a serpent anyhow, so they might as well jump in on assassinating the lynchpin character of your opponent’s army.
So I haven’t played enough 8th edition yet to know if my ideas are crap, but please don’t reply with “You’re spending XXX points to kill a 360 point character!” It’s a mech assault army, so I’d be buying the serpents and HQs anyway.
I don’t see anything else I can put into a single serpent for 300 points that will do what a warlock conclave can do.
Oh wait, witchblades are d3 wounds! So double all those expected melee wound values (or, if you have my dice, just expect the single wound values).
It seems like it'd be rare to actually land all of that on either Guilliman or Magnus. Guilliman is going to be surrounded by other stuff so that you can't get a Smite off easily. If Tigurius is there he's probably denying at +1. Magnus gets 3 denies at +2 and so is very likely to interfere with your psychic phase.
In return, a surviving Guilliman without any buffs expects to kill 3 of your Warlocks even with Protect. In his own turn Magnus will probably land his own d6 Smite. Both SM and CSM psykers also have access to powers that strip a unit of its invuln save, and if these are manifested your unit is going to be very dead very fast.
This is also very telegraphed. You're rolling up with your Serpent, then getting out the next turn. Guilliman isn't going to stand there and let you charge him. Magnus might, after charging and killing your Serpent, but he's also not nearly as scared of your Conclave since he's got more wounds and can deny your powers.
Like, surely you do better just taking 6 or 7 Spiritseers instead of the Conclave. Now you get twice as many powers, including potentially 6 or 7 Smites, and you're really annoying to kill in CC because you're a bunch of separate units. You expect to kill Guilliman clean with 7 Smites without even having to charge, and even with Tigurius you're going to get 4 or 5 through. I don't think this is a great plan either, since it still relies on somehow getting right next to Guilliman, but Spiritseers just seem a lot better for this than a Conclave.
Okay, actually your idea is much better. 6 or 7 spirit seers is lower cost, more wounds, character keyword. They already hit on 2s in melee too, and their weapons do a flat 2 damage. I’d lose out on seer council, but part of the idea was to have enough reduncancy so that I don’t have to make every single psychic test.
Flavius Infernus wrote: I’m looking at my giant pile of painted warlocks (left over from Ulthwe Strike Force days), and looking for dangerous assaulty things to put into Wave Serpents for a mechanized assault army and wondering about a 10-warlock conclave.
Before you scoff, hear me out. In my meta I struggle with high-toughness characters with crazy effective saves (Guilliman and Magnus mainly) and the occasional big bug with venomthrope/malanthrope shrouding, and the odd superheavy.
So 10 warlocks jump out of a wave serpent, do a d6 mortal wound destructor, and pile into the character with 20 melee attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s. No AP, but these characters never have a save worse than 3+ anyway. Expected about 13 or 14 wounds, 2 or 3 pass through on a 2+ save, about 4 on a 3+.
So that already with the smite is maybe 5-7 wounds putting a decent hurt on the 9-wound characters (and probably taking down any lesser character).
Now add jinx, which the conclave can cast themselves in addition to destructor. Now add enhance, which the warlocks can also cast on themselves the same phase as jinx and destructor. The numbers start to look really good. Now Guilliman is trying to roll 15 or 18 3+ saves, after already having taken 3 or 4 mortal wounds.
Or, if it looks like a long fight, the conclave can cast protection on itself (instead of enhance) for some 3+ invulnerables.
And then you can add additional gravy on top of that: put a farseer in the serpent for seer council strategem and the option to doom the target. Put an autarch in the area to buff the hit rolls. None of this is really necessary—the warlocks can nearly do it on their own—but you need HQs anyway and they need to be in a serpent anyhow, so they might as well jump in on assassinating the lynchpin character of your opponent’s army.
So I haven’t played enough 8th edition yet to know if my ideas are crap, but please don’t reply with “You’re spending XXX points to kill a 360 point character!” It’s a mech assault army, so I’d be buying the serpents and HQs anyway.
I don’t see anything else I can put into a single serpent for 300 points that will do what a warlock conclave can do.
Oh wait, witchblades are d3 wounds! So double all those expected melee wound values (or, if you have my dice, just expect the single wound values).
You seem to say witchblades, but in this situation why wouldn't you spend the extra 4 points and have the singing spear? Exactly the same results in melee and psychic phases, but you add 10 more shooting attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's.
The spiritseers option might still be better though.
Hey blasphemous xenos ERR I mean Fellow Pointy Eared Space Brethren!
How does a Mechanicus / Astra Militarum / Imperial opponent actually go about killing one of our wonderful Scorpion Superheavy Tank (Alaitoc for -1 to be hit) ?
What do you folks think of alaitoc warp spiders as that character screen.
Similar to bringing a wave serpent. Points wise it does a bit more damage than what you'll get out of a war spider.COmpared to ranger they are higher damage against everything. and they don't lose SOOOOOOO much if they aren't in cover, and almost always have that -1 to hit. While in cover they can be as tough as rangers per point getting that 2+ save. They also maintain the deep strike options that rangers can get access too.
They are also really mobile with flicker jump. While they come just short against dire avengers in most damage catagories
Are they worth thinking about or do they fall short??
ph34r wrote: Hey blasphemous xenos ERR I mean Fellow Pointy Eared Space Brethren!
How does a Mechanicus / Astra Militarum / Imperial opponent actually go about killing one of our wonderful Scorpion Superheavy Tank (Alaitoc for -1 to be hit) ?
Mechanicus = Dunecrawlers or Dakkabots
Astra = Pretty much pick any units you want. Could even go for one of the IG superheavies, they're all better than the scorpion.
Imperial = See Astra. Or shoot with anything thats standing near a girly man.
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mmimzie wrote: What do you folks think of alaitoc warp spiders as that character screen.
Similar to bringing a wave serpent. Points wise it does a bit more damage than what you'll get out of a war spider.COmpared to ranger they are higher damage against everything. and they don't lose SOOOOOOO much if they aren't in cover, and almost always have that -1 to hit. While in cover they can be as tough as rangers per point getting that 2+ save. They also maintain the deep strike options that rangers can get access too.
They are also really mobile with flicker jump. While they come just short against dire avengers in most damage catagories
Are they worth thinking about or do they fall short??
I'm curious about the outcome of this question, as it may well lead to a new entry on the Tactica. I haven't gotten around to looking at Warp Spiders since the codex dropped.
mmimzie wrote: What do you folks think of alaitoc warp spiders as that character screen.
Similar to bringing a wave serpent. Points wise it does a bit more damage than what you'll get out of a war spider.COmpared to ranger they are higher damage against everything. and they don't lose SOOOOOOO much if they aren't in cover, and almost always have that -1 to hit. While in cover they can be as tough as rangers per point getting that 2+ save. They also maintain the deep strike options that rangers can get access too.
They are also really mobile with flicker jump. While they come just short against dire avengers in most damage catagories
Are they worth thinking about or do they fall short??
I like Shadow Spectres more. Better guns, more versatile. You pay a bit more and can't deepstrike innately, but it's worth it.
Spiders would be a lot more competitive with a 5ppm higher price tag and an extra shot on their guns.
ph34r wrote: Hey blasphemous xenos ERR I mean Fellow Pointy Eared Space Brethren!
How does a Mechanicus / Astra Militarum / Imperial opponent actually go about killing one of our wonderful Scorpion Superheavy Tank (Alaitoc for -1 to be hit) ?
Dragoons WIth strategem to give them +2 to hit. Can get off turn 1 charges with stretgia or whatever dogma. Deep strike stratagem for dakabots with stratagem to auto go into double tap mode gets into 12" range turn 1 and turns off alaitoc completely.
Astra millitarum. Valkyrie with a special weapons squad/Command squad/ commpany command loaded up with melta and ordered to the teeth can drop in and since i believe it's still a deployment they can walk closer to turn 1 get into melta range and put some serious damage down. Plasma can also get within that 12" bubble and double tap overcharged plasma.
Space marine stormtalon gunship can take advantage of flying to get close and put in some serious damage, against alaitoc stops existing.
mmimzie wrote: What do you folks think of alaitoc warp spiders as that character screen.
Similar to bringing a wave serpent. Points wise it does a bit more damage than what you'll get out of a war spider.COmpared to ranger they are higher damage against everything. and they don't lose SOOOOOOO much if they aren't in cover, and almost always have that -1 to hit. While in cover they can be as tough as rangers per point getting that 2+ save. They also maintain the deep strike options that rangers can get access too.
They are also really mobile with flicker jump. While they come just short against dire avengers in most damage catagories
Are they worth thinking about or do they fall short??
I like Shadow Spectres more. Better guns, more versatile. You pay a bit more and can't deepstrike innately, but it's worth it.
Spiders would be a lot more competitive with a 5ppm higher price tag and an extra shot on their guns.
The math hammer shows me that durability wise spectre's are lower on the spectrum. I haven't run gun damage for them yet because i ignore the existance of forge world passively lol, and the calcuation is abit tougher. Give me a moment to calculate that.
Edit: Gun damage calcs
.0321 MEQwounds/pts at long range
.0479 MEQwounds/pts at show range
Definitely higher gun damage than you get out of the warp spider squad:
.0272 MEQwounds/pts
Dire avengers to compare:
.0313
So definitly the spectres are the higher damage options while the warp spiders are the more durable option:
Bolter shots to kill in cover per points for a squad with exarch (alaitoc): (higher is better)
Spectres 1.479
Spiders: 1.65 (mind you ~1/36 chance a model dies each time they get shot and you flicker)
Dire avengers: .563
Also both those above numbers are tougher than a death guard model.
The math hammer shows me that durability wise spectre's are lower on the spectrum. I haven't run gun damage for them yet because i ignore the existance of forge world passively lol, and the calcuation is abit tougher. Give me a moment to calculate that.
Edit: Gun damage calcs
.0321 MEQwounds/pts at long range
.0479 MEQwounds/pts at show range
Definitely higher gun damage than you get out of the warp spider squad:
.0272 MEQwounds/pts
Dire avengers to compare:
.0313
So definitly the spectres are the higher damage options while the warp spiders are the more durable option:
Bolter shots to kill in cover per points for a squad with exarch (alaitoc): (higher is better)
Spectres 1.479
Spiders: 1.65 (mind you ~1/36 chance a model dies each time they get shot and you flicker)
Dire avengers: .563
Also both those above numbers are tougher than a death guard model.
Interesting that Spiders are the more durable option. As they're also cheaper I wonder if they have a use in a mixed spider/specter list.
On another note, would people find it useful if the Tactica had a section for each unit that showed some kind of standardised damage/point or durability stats? All with some kind of standard average, so I guess it would be "number of bolter shots to kill" or something.
edit: And another question, or rather a request for feedback -
on this page Special Rules I have done two tester layout for the rules. They are in the "General Rules" section at the top:
- one under the "Relics" tab (just plain text with some formatting) = looks fine on desktop, but on mobile it becomes a lot of text to scroll through.
- the other is in the "Warlord Traits" tab (a nested set of Accordions) = Takes up same screen space as normal text on desktop, but on mobile it takes up much less space. Means opening/closing accordians to read things though.
Which should I stick with for doing the rest of the special rules do you think? Answers on a postcard, I'm going to bed now so I won't be continuing until tomorrow evening
Played a game earlier with my beil-tan, just wanted to share some stuff.
1. Farseer with Fortune and Doom, as well as the Beil-tan warlord trait "Natural Leader" and a unit of 3 warwalkers each with 2 eldar missile launchers = one he'll of a fire base. Even moving doesn't matter to these guys with natural leader keeping them hitting.
2 Wraithlords with dual bright lances, 2 flamers, and 1 with the glaive the other with Fists, followed by an Avatar of Kaine and a farseer on foot with Guide / Executioner. These guys made up my forward pressure / close combat hammer, and boy were they a giant distraction. They killed a Tervigon, Trygon Prime, and 20 Termagaunts during the course of the game and were about to kill a Tyranofex but the game ended. Talk about brutal.
3. Dire Avengers are awesome. I took 2 squads of 10 and a squad of 5 that made up my buffer zone behind the Wraithlords and Avatar but in front of the Warwalkers. They don't disappoint with Beil-tan rerolls.
4. Only thing that actually disappointed me were my banshees. I charged a squad of genestealers with a unit of 10 banshees and maybe it was just my rolls but only killed 4 genestealers, which then turned around and ate the banshees for lunch. Still, I like them so will try them again. Maybe just not use them against genestealers and leave them to the dire avengers to just shoot.
All and all I must say wow, Eldar play just like I remember them. Too many threats to take on at once and lots of tricks up their sleeves. Casting Quickness onto the banshees with their large movement and charge range was cool too.
Spiders and Spectres are just as durable as one another (except in melee, where the Spectres also get their -1 to be hit, while Spiders don't.), it's just that Spiders cost less, so they're more efficient when you actually start losing those bodies.
As far as function goes, they both have their uses.
Spectres will put out slightly more hits of higher quality (AP-3) per model up to 18", and benefit from to hit buffs more, thanks to their exploding hits. Moreover, if they get close, their damage output gets a lot higher against 4+ saves and worse (and considerably higher than the Spiders).
That said, Spiders are not without their perks. Their mobility, while somewhat unpredictable, is on average going to be higher than that of the Spectres, allowing them to cover more distance. While the longer range on the Spectres' guns mitigates a lot of this difference for offensive purposes, it makes the Spiders better at quickly jumping onto further away objectives (just be prepared in case you roll poorly on their jump). The ability to deepstrike them also means you can have them start in a position where they're immediately threatening, and means that they can't be shot at until you've gotten a chance to do something with them.
Spiders are better at denying deepstrike assaults, since their higher base shot count at 9"+ means they'll do more damage in overwatch against deepstriking foes. Spectres, on the other hand, excel at denying charges within 8" thanks to their heavy flamer fire mode. Spiders are better for space denial, Spectres are better for bodyguarding.
Spiders are better at doing damage in CC, thanks to their Exarch's access to power blades, but realistically, you'd never really want to take them, and never want to put them in an offensive CC position to begin with. Spectres, however, are far better at surviving in CC thanks to their -1 to be hit carrying over to close combat. This makes Spectres far superior mobile tarpits. Moreover, their higher base movement means that Spiders do a better job of getting in to tarpit enemy units, although Spiders can also deepstrike in a pinch for the assault, although it is risky. That said, both units have access to a solid 3+ save that makes them okay at tarpitting enemies with weak CC tools.
Basically, I get the feeling that Spiders will function better as smaller harassing and area control units, while Spectres will perform better with greater investment (and the nature of their exploding hits means they'll get more out of support than Spiders will) as actual offensive pieces. They share some functionality, with the Spectres being more capable of stepping into the dual role than the Spiders, but that's what you get for a higher price tag. It relegates Spiders to a narrower position where they need to be run as cheaply as possible, but both units strike me as being solid options for their costs.
Azuza001 wrote: Only thing that actually disappointed me were my banshees. I charged a squad of genestealers
Banshees are all about their power swords, so anything that is either very cheap and has above average toughness (orks) or has invul (genestealers) is not right target for them. Ideally you want things like devastators, but you might as well roll those 5 or 6 against bigger monster without invul and get it down instead, while keeping banshees alive due to -1 to hit and taking back less attacks since big weapons with high Damage would be wasted on them. Wounded monster would also decrease it's chance to hit against banshees even more due to degeneration table. And you want Executioners. The more the better.
Is it me, or Asurmen+Dire Avengers+Protect gives a super tanky unit for its points? Throw into cover for 2+/3++ of Storm Shield Terminator win.
It could also be done with Dark Reapers for a 2+/4++ outside of cover.
Considering the 6 aura of Asurmen, it could be used both on a 10+ Dire Avengers screen and a 5+ Dark Reapers units for a surprisingly resilient firebase (add Yvraine in the middle for WoTP shenanigans
Maybe not super competitive, but it could be strong in casual games. The CC potential of Asurmen is not wholly wasted as he could counterattack when the inevitable assault comes.
Edit: I meant the Avengers, not Asurmen. He is a tank by itself.
Drake003 wrote: Linked fire has to be against the declared target. As Forewarned is against a unit DS onto the board, they won’t be a previously marked target.
I think the main reason it doesn't work is that you spend the CP to Forewarn a single Prism, so a second Prism would not be eligible to even use Linked Fire.
Azuza001 wrote: Played a game earlier with my beil-tan, just wanted to share some stuff.
1. Farseer with Fortune and Doom, as well as the Beil-tan warlord trait "Natural Leader" and a unit of 3 warwalkers each with 2 eldar missile launchers = one he'll of a fire base. Even moving doesn't matter to these guys with natural leader keeping them hitting.
I'm assuming you're fortune and doom-ing the warwalkers, but I thought that when they were on the table they were independent units, so you could only fortune/doom a single warwalker not the whole group. Which isn't great, and you'd probably be better off dropping the farseer and taking a 4th walker.
I might be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.
2 Wraithlords with dual bright lances, 2 flamers, and 1 with the glaive the other with Fists, followed by an Avatar of Kaine and a farseer on foot with Guide / Executioner. These guys made up my forward pressure / close combat hammer, and boy were they a giant distraction. They killed a Tervigon, Trygon Prime, and 20 Termagaunts during the course of the game and were about to kill a Tyranofex but the game ended. Talk about brutal.
Interesting, Wraithlords from the Index (and from 7th...and 6th... and probably before) were generally seen as pretty terrible unless you went for the cheapest bare-bones loadout. Though after the drop in weapons costs, it'd be interesting to see if more people use them with decent heavy weapon options. A couple bright-lances and a sword is a pretty satisfying loadout.
Niiru wrote: Interesting, Wraithlords from the Index (and from 7th...and 6th... and probably before) were generally seen as pretty terrible unless you went for the cheapest bare-bones loadout. Though after the drop in weapons costs, it'd be interesting to see if more people use them with decent heavy weapon options. A couple bright-lances and a sword is a pretty satisfying loadout.
Wraithlords are OK as they have +1T, +1A and the heavy weapons have generally come down in price. Various builds are viable but probably the best option is to keep them cheap with 2 Shuricats, 2 Shuricannons and a Glaive. Move them quickly towards the enemy and Advance every turn until you reach charge range and then hurl them into combat. The other option is to run without Glaive and give them either Brightlances or Starcannons. Then have them loiter in your backfield for fire-support and also to babysit any Reapers, Rangers or Objective holders.
The basic problem is that the "classic" Eldar heavy weapons don't always synergise well with the platforms they are mounted on. Most of them suffer the -1 to Hit for moving and since Eldar are a mobile army, Shuricannons look more attractive. Also, leaving behind Starcannons or Brightlances doesn't necessarily leave a hole in your capabilities if you have Reapers, Frire Prisms, Wraithguard and Fire Dragons for MEQ killing and tank-busting.
The brightlance is an awkward, single-shot anti-tank weapon in a list that has plentiful access to AP-3 or above weapons. Maybe I would consider starcannons over Shuricannons if I knew i was facing MEQs.
2 Wraithlords with dual bright lances, 2 flamers, and 1 with the glaive the other with Fists, followed by an Avatar of Kaine and a farseer on foot with Guide / Executioner. These guys made up my forward pressure / close combat hammer, and boy were they a giant distraction. They killed a Tervigon, Trygon Prime, and 20 Termagaunts during the course of the game and were about to kill a Tyranofex but the game ended. Talk about brutal.
How did they catch all those units? WLs and Avatar are not exactly fast moving. Did your opponent fight them straight up?
Azuza001 wrote: Played a game earlier with my beil-tan, just wanted to share some stuff.
1. Farseer with Fortune and Doom, as well as the Beil-tan warlord trait "Natural Leader" and a unit of 3 warwalkers each with 2 eldar missile launchers = one he'll of a fire base. Even moving doesn't matter to these guys with natural leader keeping them hitting.
I'm assuming you're fortune and doom-ing the warwalkers, but I thought that when they were on the table they were independent units, so you could only fortune/doom a single warwalker not the whole group. Which isn't great, and you'd probably be better off dropping the farseer and taking a 4th walker.
I might be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.
2 Wraithlords with dual bright lances, 2 flamers, and 1 with the glaive the other with Fists, followed by an Avatar of Kaine and a farseer on foot with Guide / Executioner. These guys made up my forward pressure / close combat hammer, and boy were they a giant distraction. They killed a Tervigon, Trygon Prime, and 20 Termagaunts during the course of the game and were about to kill a Tyranofex but the game ended. Talk about brutal.
Interesting, Wraithlords from the Index (and from 7th...and 6th... and probably before) were generally seen as pretty terrible unless you went for the cheapest bare-bones loadout. Though after the drop in weapons costs, it'd be interesting to see if more people use them with decent heavy weapon options. A couple bright-lances and a sword is a pretty satisfying loadout.
I just double checked in case I did something wrong or missed something and in the codex and there is nothing in there for warwalkers that states they act independent of each other after deployment, so they are a single unit of 3 that must keep squad coherency, so when the power fortune targets a unit all 3 get the bonus. And that means the tactic effects all 3, so yep, 6d6 rerolling all misses s4 ap-1 missile shots at swarms that are "doomed" are super effective. Or 6 str 8 ap-2 again, that's one dead / wounded Tank or big bug.
I found that T8 on the wraithlords really helped keep them alive, and the fact that they were popping off 4 brightlance shots even with the minus to hit they were getting at least 2 wounds on the big tyrnaids I was shooting at, and as the targets didn't have an invulnerable save the -4 Ap ment they were just going right through. Which scared my opponent so again they were forced to make a choice, wraithlords or eldar missile launchers. And no matter the choice my units had what they needed. They decided to deal with the Warwalkers, killing 2 of the 3 in the end, but then the Warwalkers were there with 4d6 flamer shots auto killing, buh bye genestealers. And 4 brightlance shots, dealing 7 more wounds to Tervigon, and then the avatar charged finishing it off, after that they had a broodlord at 3 wounds, 3 genestealers, a lucky hormagaunt that just wouldn't die, and a Tyranofex
So, not enough to deal with the wraithlords and Avatar (plus I was saying 3 command points in case for the avatar to keep it alive).
I honestly don't even care about the autarch crap at the moment, I have never had an eldar fight that went to plan so well.
2 Wraithlords with dual bright lances, 2 flamers, and 1 with the glaive the other with Fists, followed by an Avatar of Kaine and a farseer on foot with Guide / Executioner. These guys made up my forward pressure / close combat hammer, and boy were they a giant distraction. They killed a Tervigon, Trygon Prime, and 20 Termagaunts during the course of the game and were about to kill a Tyranofex but the game ended. Talk about brutal.
How did they catch all those units? WLs and Avatar are not exactly fast moving. Did your opponent fight them straight up?
Tyrnaid force that was focused mostly on close range, so she tried to hit them head on and overwhelm them like she has done before to my dreadnoughts, but as she learned Eldar are not like marines. I doubt she will let me get that close next time lol.
On another note next time I think I will replace the bright lances with shuriken cannons, being able to advance and still shoot with rerolling 1's for Beil-tan should be pretty effective and cheaper.
'8 is somewhat faster than average. And Avatar can theoretically move up to '15 (without charging) if you give him a warlord trait & use stratagem. Really, against melee army that can't slow WLs down by wounding them from afar, they're at advantage. And against things that are lower than S9 too I think.
The brightlance is an awkward, single-shot anti-tank weapon
It's not old editions anymore where you shoot 12 lances and get 5 crew shakens. Brightlance is a fine weapon which wounds most medium vehicles on 3+ and doesn't allow a save like Lascannon. And unlike things like FDs, you can't screen behind infantry and stuff against lances. Crimson Hunters, Serpents with lances, Guided WWs are all good. Wraithlords with lances can work with Spiritseer & 1CP stratagem for re-roll everything '12 bubble.
I was heavily biased against lances for a while (dat game in 6th I once had when I shot hammerhead for 3 turns with WWs with lances to strip it to half of hplol). But after trying Crimson hunter, I began putting lances on lots of things.
If I could only make an army of shuriken catapults, lances & power swords, I'd do that.
On another note next time I think I will replace the bright lances with shuriken cannons, being able to advance and still shoot with rerolling 1's for Beil-tan should be pretty effective and cheaper.
Try loading all 3 WLs in Iyanden, bringing Spiritseer with Faolchu's Wing & popping Guided Wraithsight stratagem. Free Guides for everyone.
The brightlance is an awkward, single-shot anti-tank weapon
It's not old editions anymore where you shoot 12 lances and get 5 crew shakens. Brightlance is a fine weapon which wounds most medium vehicles on 3+ and doesn't allow a save like Lascannon. And unlike things like FDs, you can't screen behind infantry and stuff against lances. Crimson Hunters, Serpents with lances, Guided WWs are all good. Wraithlords with lances can work with Spiritseer & 1CP stratagem for re-roll everything '12 bubble.
I was heavily biased against lances for a while (dat game I once had when I shot hammerhead for 3 turns with WWs with lances to strip it to half of hplol). But after trying Crimson hunter, I began putting lances on lots of things.
And to add to your point, Lances are 5pts cheaper than Lascannons, have better AP and not many targets care about the difference between S8 or 9.
Lascannons are considered one of the best weapons in 8th edition (and are probably the main reason WKs are considered to easy to take down).
So how can Bright lances be considered bad when they are objectively better that one of the best weapons in this edition?
I just double checked in case I did something wrong or missed something and in the codex and there is nothing in there for warwalkers that states they act independent of each other after deployment, so they are a single unit of 3 that must keep squad coherency, so when the power fortune targets a unit all 3 get the bonus.
You are totally correct. How strange. This actually increases my opinion of war walkers as it means they can take buffs from psychic abilities the same as Vypers can. Vypers get the benefit of craftworld attributes though, but even so I think war walkers pull ahead (if you have a psyker near them).
Might even be good to have a warlock nearby, conceal would give the war walkers the equivalent of the Alaitoc -1 to hit, or protect/jinx could improve your invulnerable to a 4++ or drop the enemy unit's saves if they get close enough.
And another question, or rather a request for feedback -
on this page Special Rules I have done two tester layout for the rules. They are in the "General Rules" section at the top:
- one under the "Relics" tab (just plain text with some formatting) = looks fine on desktop, but on mobile it becomes a lot of text to scroll through.
- the other is in the "Warlord Traits" tab (a nested set of Accordions) = Takes up same screen space as normal text on desktop, but on mobile it takes up much less space. Means opening/closing accordians to read things though.
Which should I stick with for doing the rest of the special rules do you think? Answers on a postcard, I'm going to bed now so I won't be continuing until tomorrow evening
And I'm re-posting this question for everyone, because I'm about to start writing up the stratagems etc and I don't want to have to re-do it all if it ends up in a format everyone finds annoying lmao.
Any thoughts? I think it's solid but might struggle against melee heavy armies since not much I have can fight in combat. I did consider two wraithblades instead of the Scytheguard, but they are really too good to pass up.
And to add to your point, Lances are 5pts cheaper than Lascannons, have better AP and not many targets care about the difference between S8 or 9.
Lascannons are considered one of the best weapons in 8th edition (and are probably the main reason WKs are considered to easy to take down).
So how can Bright lances be considered bad when they are objectively better that one of the best weapons in this edition?
I would have said that lascannons are generally better than bright lances. The extra range means you'll almost never have to move to shoot what you want, whereas bright lances will typically have to move turn 1 to shoot something deep inside your opponent's deployment zone. There's actually quite a lot that cares about the difference between S8 and S9, and there's also a bunch of stuff that doesn't care about the difference between AP-3 and AP-4 (and this is typically only a 20-25% improvement anyway whereas the lascannon is 33% better vs T8). Plus Eldar already have great options for killing T7 whereas T8 can be tricky -- fusion guns and shuriken catapults care a lot about the T7 to T8 jump.
But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover. Bright lance platforms are generally very fragile or else really want to be moving every turn because they're paying for a lot more than just the bright lances. Crimson Hunters look to me like the only unit that you're really thrilled to take bright lances on, and while they're good at their new price they'll probably get benched in favor of the Hemlock.
Any thoughts? I think it's solid but might struggle against melee heavy armies since not much I have can fight in combat. I did consider two wraithblades instead of the Scytheguard, but they are really too good to pass up.
I would try to fit a second Fire Prism in somewhere. Pulsed laser discharge is nice but it's Linked Fire that makes Fire Prisms so devastating now.
And to add to your point, Lances are 5pts cheaper than Lascannons, have better AP and not many targets care about the difference between S8 or 9.
Lascannons are considered one of the best weapons in 8th edition (and are probably the main reason WKs are considered to easy to take down).
So how can Bright lances be considered bad when they are objectively better that one of the best weapons in this edition?
I would have said that lascannons are generally better than bright lances. The extra range means you'll almost never have to move to shoot what you want, whereas bright lances will typically have to move turn 1 to shoot something deep inside your opponent's deployment zone. There's actually quite a lot that cares about the difference between S8 and S9, and there's also a bunch of stuff that doesn't care about the difference between AP-3 and AP-4 (and this is typically only a 20-25% improvement anyway whereas the lascannon is 33% better vs T8). Plus Eldar already have great options for killing T7 whereas T8 can be tricky -- fusion guns and shuriken catapults care a lot about the T7 to T8 jump.
But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover. Bright lance platforms are generally very fragile or else really want to be moving every turn because they're paying for a lot more than just the bright lances. Crimson Hunters look to me like the only unit that you're really thrilled to take bright lances on, and while they're good at their new price they'll probably get benched in favor of the Hemlock.
I'll agree with you on the platform issue, but all the "weaknesses" you just described only really apply if you are fighting tank-heavy Imperial Guard. That's 1 build of 1 faction.
All my prior statements hold true against 90% of the other armies an Eldar player would face, which would have mostly T7 at best and would want to be withing 36" of your army 9so that they can also shoot and/or assault)
I agree about platforms, but really, things which are not worth to take for lances are generally not worth to take for any other heavy weapon as well. It's not like you're happier for a Vyper or Falcon with AML than one with lance.
With Tyranids our soon, and all their anti psychic options, it seems that they are going to be putting a spanner in the works for as straight away, trying to cast our various buff and de-buff powers.
Depending on the army composition and weapon options encouraged in the Codex, I am going to assume that they won’t have too many flying gribblies (it’s not particularly thematic) and will likely be limited to Gargoyles and Hive Tyrants, as is currently the case.
That being the case, finding ways to slow their advance will be even more critical than before to keep out psychic support up as long as possible.
My first strategic thought is using Air Wing to stop a significant section of their army moving up the board.
I.e. fly 3 Hemlocks up just outside of 12” if Exocrines and their ilk, and as close to the grunts as possible. 3 flyers in a line parallel to the swarm facing 90 degrees and just under 3” apart from each other will generate an impassable line of just under 20” long.
This would be an effective way of shutting down lanes of approach to you.
This hemlock tactic works great, it also works well as a defensive screen on setup. Works best with ulthwe I think as you are always rolling 6+ *2 for wounding even with smites.
eldritchstormer wrote: This hemlock tactic works great, it also works well as a defensive screen on setup. Works best with ulthwe I think as you are always rolling 6+ *2 for wounding even with smites.
Glad you are having success with this tactic. I think it is definitely something that Niiru should include in his Tactica website.
Please note though that with Spriit Stones on Hemlock, you don’t benefit from being Ulthwe. You pick which 6+++ to take, you can’t take both. The only Craftworld trait that really benefits a Hemlock is the Alaitoc for the -1 to hit, which is why I suggested moving them up to just outside 12” from the heavy guns. To ensure they are at -2 to hit them -1 for hard to hit rule and -1 for either Alaitoc trait (more than 12” away) or —1 for moving into 12” within a Heavy Weapon.
eldritchstormer wrote: This hemlock tactic works great, it also works well as a defensive screen on setup. Works best with ulthwe I think as you are always rolling 6+ *2 for wounding even with smites.
Glad you are having success with this tactic. I think it is definitely something that Niiru should include in his Tactica website.
Please note though that with Spriit Stones on Hemlock, you don’t benefit from being Ulthwe. You pick which 6+++ to take, you can’t take both. The only Craftworld trait that really benefits a Hemlock is the Alaitoc for the -1 to hit, which is why I suggested moving them up to just outside 12” from the heavy guns. To ensure they are at -2 to hit them -1 for hard to hit rule and -1 for either Alaitoc trait (more than 12” away) or —1 for moving into 12” within a Heavy Weapon.
I haven't played with Flyers at all, so I haven't gotten to that part of the Tactica yet as I would need to rely on others for the accurate information. I will make a note of this in the Hemlock section though so that it gets written up correctly when the time comes
This is one of the things that makes the Hemlock so good. It needs to be close to use its guns, but can be used during deployment to prevent assault units from popping up and getting at the core of your army.
I plan to use this in concert with rangers to make a parameter around my army to reduce alpha strikes and buy a turn or 2 of additional shooting (which is often all you need to win)
Drake003 wrote: With Tyranids our soon, and all their anti psychic options, it seems that they are going to be putting a spanner in the works for as straight away, trying to cast our various buff and de-buff powers.
Depending on the army composition and weapon options encouraged in the Codex, I am going to assume that they won’t have too many flying gribblies (it’s not particularly thematic) and will likely be limited to Gargoyles and Hive Tyrants, as is currently the case.
That being the case, finding ways to slow their advance will be even more critical than before to keep out psychic support up as long as possible.
My first strategic thought is using Air Wing to stop a significant section of their army moving up the board.
I.e. fly 3 Hemlocks up just outside of 12” if Exocrines and their ilk, and as close to the grunts as possible. 3 flyers in a line parallel to the swarm facing 90 degrees and just under 3” apart from each other will generate an impassable line of just under 20” long.
This would be an effective way of shutting down lanes of approach to you.
Sound decent?
Are Hemlocks only 5" at their widest? Sounds good, but not at the expense of losing a turn of useful shooting. Tricky to pull off with Flyers, but good for the bag of tricks.
Drake003 wrote: With Tyranids our soon, and all their anti psychic options, it seems that they are going to be putting a spanner in the works for as straight away, trying to cast our various buff and de-buff powers.
Depending on the army composition and weapon options encouraged in the Codex, I am going to assume that they won’t have too many flying gribblies (it’s not particularly thematic) and will likely be limited to Gargoyles and Hive Tyrants, as is currently the case.
That being the case, finding ways to slow their advance will be even more critical than before to keep out psychic support up as long as possible.
My first strategic thought is using Air Wing to stop a significant section of their army moving up the board.
I.e. fly 3 Hemlocks up just outside of 12” if Exocrines and their ilk, and as close to the grunts as possible. 3 flyers in a line parallel to the swarm facing 90 degrees and just under 3” apart from each other will generate an impassable line of just under 20” long.
This would be an effective way of shutting down lanes of approach to you.
Sound decent?
tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.
Xenomancers wrote: tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.
These are good points to be aware of, but not exactly a foregone conclusion. If they have Tyrants, make them your first targets. Kill them with Dark Reapers
Actually, this is a good excuse to use Crimson Hunters as they get a bonus against unit with Fly and do not have to be as close.
If your opponent is playing a competitive Tyranid list, expect them to take a small Kronos detachment. Rippers deepstriking around your deployment zone will give them the ability to cover pretty much the entire table in range of their stratagem, which is pretty much an auto-fail for most of our buffs. Granted, they can only do it once per turn, but they only need to make you fail the one you need.
But seriously, Tyranids are looking like a pretty hard counter for Eldar right now. No idea how we'll end up taking on an optimized nid force.
I get what your saying. Ideally those Hemlocks though will already have shot the Hive Tyrant in your turn to soften him up (he has more than 10 wounds) 3 Hemlocks will on average score 12 hits, (assuming not doomed due to their shenanigans, though can potentially still Doom) 8 Wounds. 4 get through his inv save for 8 damage.
That will make him think twice about charging them with their auto hits.
There aren’t many things that can threaten them in Melee so focus on those that can first.
Nids shooting should be too scary aside from auto hitting options due to the -modifiers and their innate average BS. They may be able to pump out a bit more effective shots now, we will see...
He will also need to dedicate a decent amount of resources and time to tackle that roadblock, which buys you time to thin out the horde and exocrines with the rest of your army..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Galef, you are starting to convince me to use a Crimson Hunter Exarch!?!
-1 is not a huge casting penalty. For example, Eldrad with pocket warlock with stratagem casts at +1 and +2 with next power on a success with re-roll from runes. Biel Tan farseer has a relic that I believe allows to re-roll re-rolls or somethin. Yvraine has flat +1 at all times too, but doesn't have runes so she will probably suffer more.
Shadenuat wrote: -1 is not a huge casting penalty. For example, Eldrad with pocket warlock with stratagem casts at +1 and +2 with next power on a success with re-roll from runes. Biel Tan farseer has a relic that I believe allows to re-roll re-rolls or somethin. Yvraine has flat +1 at all times too, but doesn't have runes so she will probably suffer more.
Kronos stratagem makes you roll a psychic test on 1D6 if you're within 24" of a Kronos model (it's 2CP, but Nids can generate a near limitless amount, so nothing to worry about there for them) . Combine that with a longer-ranged SITW. Have fun.
Also, turn 1 deep striking rippers shouldn’t be too bad, just ensure your deployment ensures they can’t get too close and then clear them out with Shurikan fire pronto.
24" range means that your psykers will be relegated to a pretty harmless position if you intend on keeping them out. If they get the first turn, combined with Flyrant shenanigans, they've basically denied your first psychic phase (and sure, it's only one turn, but that matters massively in 8th).
If they get second, you get one turn of action before your psykers are neutered.
Either way, it looks like any game against Tyranids where you don't secure victory on the first turn is going to be a hard loss for Eldar.
What else is there? Kronos stratagem only works for a single psychic test, and in MP game you can only use the same stratagem once per phase. (and it's actually 1CP, really cheap stuff)
Shadenuat wrote: -1 is not a huge casting penalty. For example, Eldrad with pocket warlock with stratagem casts at +1 and +2 with next power on a success with re-roll from runes. Biel Tan farseer has a relic that I believe allows to re-roll re-rolls or somethin. Yvraine has flat +1 at all times too, but doesn't have runes so she will probably suffer more.
It's the runes of battle powers that are in serious jeopardy. Most are 7's to cast - with no runes of the farseer to help cast. Plus Nid's can shut your best power down every turn for 1 command point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fafnir wrote: 24" range means that your psykers will be relegated to a pretty harmless position if you intend on keeping them out. If they get the first turn, combined with Flyrant shenanigans, they've basically denied your first psychic phase (and sure, it's only one turn, but that matters massively in 8th).
If they get second, you get one turn of action before your psykers are neutered.
Either way, it looks like any game against Tyranids where you don't secure victory on the first turn is going to be a hard loss for Eldar.
Thats kinda the way I see it. Also - Nids are pretty good at protecting their good stuff on the first turn. Tyrants can all deep strike if they have wings. Their heavy hitting elements all come in via deep strike. The one advantage eldar have is forewarning. That makes deep striking tyrants risky as heck.
While it's true that it can only be used once per phase, it's all about the psychological threat of being able to block the one power that you really need at a given time.
Psychic Scream (can be any hive fleet) is a WC5 power that can be cast to make you forget a psychic power (1MW and roll 2D6, if it exceeds your leadership, lose a random power).
Kronos Warlord trait makes psykers who fail psychic tests within 18" of the warlord suffer D3 MW.
Essentially, if your opponent declares that their Kronos Flyrant is their warlord, they come in turn one (and they now have the mobility to get there through a variety of means, so deepstrike defense is not infallible), throw up a -1 modifier with SITW, and threaten you with an autofail with Dd3MW as penalty. They can then snipe out one psyker a turn with Psychic Scream, potentially costing you a power. So not only are you at a much greater risk of failing your psychic tests, but doing so will cause your psykers to drop like flies.
All this discussion is doing is making me glad that Eldar psykers were never something I spammed, preferring Autarchs instead.
This also makes me think that Rangers are more competitive than Dire Avengers as they can deploy outside your deployment zone as a buffer to keep armies like this at bay. It might even be worth placing 2-3 units in a way that prevents Reinforcements units deploying behind them, but just forward enough so that Flying units cannot fly over them in the first turn. Using pre-measurement, you could put them in a way the forces enemy Flying units from moving their full movement since they still have to land 1" away For Example, if a unit has 16" move, than place the Rangers at 16-18" depending on the base size of the enemy. Even if they Advance, the unit will not be able to land behind the Rangers and be 1" away.
Of course the Ranger will die, but they'll give you the turn you need to keep the enemy away.
Kronos are nasty, though if Smite spam is forced out with the Chapter Approved, players may be less inclined to take that Hive Fleet, as the benefits will become a lot more narrow within the meta.
And yes Galef, deployment will be critical against Nids. Rangers will be a must, even if only a couple of units to keep them honest.
We have the tools to keep our psyker at range for as much as possible and mitigate DS shenanigans, just need to bring the right tools and tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would argue our best power is Doom as it benefits more than 1 unit and potentially our whole army.
Kronos I don’t think will be auto take Hive Fleet unless there are atleast half a dozen psyker on most top tables. There ability only nerfs a very small percentage of most armies, and some have no psyker at all. There are much better army wide traits to take. But in a psyker Heavy meta then they are a solid take.
Multiple deep-striking Rippers would be a problem, probably, but I don't feel like it's generally too hard to be 24" away from stuff. A Tyranid player will be able to shut down Doom, but Guide and Fortune cast on friendlies, which are probably closer to your Farseer, and you can move at least 7+d6" before manifesting. The Battle powers are 18" but the ones you really want to get off are also cast on friendlies, and they're also all no-LoS. It's going to be very hard for a Tyranid player to shut down Quicken, Conceal, or Protect.
You push back their deep strikers with your deployment and your Rangers, and you should pretty much always be able to get your first turn buff powers off. I feel like the bigger concern is making sure that your psykers aren't vulnerable to deep strikers on the next turn, after they've moved so as to get their powers off.
Shadenuat wrote: The best one of our powers I can think of is Word of the Phoenix, but soulburst can happen without that power too.
Is Kronos a worthy fleet to go if you don't always play against eldar though?
Hard to say what fleet is best. Kronos is great for their big artiliery creatures like exocrines and tyranofexes (they are much better now) because they get reroll 1's to hit if they stay still. Kronos also seems to have some good relics. I think it will be a highly played fleet. The other fleets aren't bad though. They can even mix fleets. Just need the Kronos warlord to really hurt psychics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dionysodorus wrote: Multiple deep-striking Rippers would be a problem, probably, but I don't feel like it's generally too hard to be 24" away from stuff. A Tyranid player will be able to shut down Doom, but Guide and Fortune cast on friendlies, which are probably closer to your Farseer, and you can move at least 7+d6" before manifesting. The Battle powers are 18" but the ones you really want to get off are also cast on friendlies, and they're also all no-LoS. It's going to be very hard for a Tyranid player to shut down Quicken, Conceal, or Protect.
You push back their deep strikers with your deployment and your Rangers, and you should pretty much always be able to get your first turn buff powers off. I feel like the bigger concern is making sure that your psykers aren't vulnerable to deep strikers on the next turn, after they've moved so as to get their powers off.
It's going to be mostly impossible to stay more than 18 inches away from a bunch of flying hive tyrants. most Tyranid armies are deep striking a swarmlord onto the front lines. You really can't escape the nids. They are very mobile.
Drake003 wrote: Kronos are nasty, though if Smite spam is forced out with the Chapter Approved, players may be less inclined to take that Hive Fleet, as the benefits will become a lot more narrow within the meta.
Have to see how the environment pans out.
The problem is that if Kronos and the like is GW's method of dealing with Smite spam, they end up hurting less degenerate, synergistic based powers so very much more. Tyranids don't have to pay much towards getting this level of dominance, so the threat of that should always be at the forefront.
I imagine it'll be an omnipresent enough threat amoung competitive Tyranid builds to push Eldar casting out of the competitive meta.
Shadenuat wrote: The best one of our powers I can think of is Word of the Phoenix, but soulburst can happen without that power too.
Is Kronos a worthy fleet to go if you don't always play against eldar though?
You can easily run a cheap Kronos detachment for psychic denial. A few rippers, a flyrant. Maybe some gunbeasts to take advantage of that faction trait. Since nids have such an easy time putting together (potentially multiple) brigade detachments, using a third for psychic dominance will not be a huge opportunity cost for the new dex. They'll be drowning in command points no matter how they run.
Dionysodorus wrote: But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover.
This is exactly the problem. Marines have at least 3 units off the top of my head that can pack 4 Lascannons, Eldar don't have anything that can take more than 2 of them (I suppose if you run squadrons of War walkers). Wave Serpents and Wraithlords generally want to move either to transport units or to get close to the enemy in order to hit them. Guardians sitting back with a Brightlance are paying for a lot of Shuricats that are not being used. The Falcon is an option but if you are going to use it as a static gun platform then I think the Fire Prism is a better bet.
Dark Eldar don't have this problem as Darklances become Assault when mounted on their vehicles. That is why DL-spam is a thing. If CWE had a similar rule then Brightlances would be a lot more viable. As it stands I think that War Walkers are the only unit that can spam them moderately effectively. The -1 to Hit when moving is a hindrance for Brightlances and you can only Guide one unit per turn. I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.
Karhedron wrote: I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.
I think there are more armies who would be happy to have something like WW with it's high stats, good bs, outflank, 5++ etc. Not to name things like Crimson Hunters who outperform DEs Ravagers by far.
We take too many things for granted.
tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.
What's the T stat of a hive tyrant, I thought they used to be T5? Shouldn't a hemlock be wounding a tyrant on 2s now? Even if they are T6 it's still 2s because the heavy d-scythe is bumped up to Str 12 in the codex.
Dionysodorus wrote: But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover.
This is exactly the problem. Marines have at least 3 units off the top of my head that can pack 4 Lascannons, Eldar don't have anything that can take more than 2 of them (I suppose if you run squadrons of War walkers). Wave Serpents and Wraithlords generally want to move either to transport units or to get close to the enemy in order to hit them. Guardians sitting back with a Brightlance are paying for a lot of Shuricats that are not being used. The Falcon is an option but if you are going to use it as a static gun platform then I think the Fire Prism is a better bet.
Dark Eldar don't have this problem as Darklances become Assault when mounted on their vehicles. That is why DL-spam is a thing. If CWE had a similar rule then Brightlances would be a lot more viable. As it stands I think that War Walkers are the only unit that can spam them moderately effectively. The -1 to Hit when moving is a hindrance for Brightlances and you can only Guide one unit per turn. I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.
I think this is why Reapers are popular, especially now that they have a Str 8 mode on their launchers. They are our only option for a massed ranged heavy weapons unit.
tyranids are just going to destroy our flyers with hive tyrants. Hemlock has decent overwatch BUT it still only averages 3 hits - only wounds a tyrant on 3's and then he has a 4++ save. Then he gets to hit you at 2+ to hit with 4 devastating attacks. He will also auto hit you with his miasm cannon - which is already pretty painful. Can also charge you with gargoyles or something too to clear overwatch. Kronus nids are going to hard counter eldar so hard it's not even funny. Nids get right in your face so -1 to hit is going to be practically never. Warlocks and hemlocks trying to cast powers needing 7's at -1. Taking d3 mortals for every failed test within range of the warlord. It's gonna be ugly.
What's the T stat of a hive tyrant, I thought they used to be T5? Shouldn't a hemlock be wounding a tyrant on 2s now? Even if they are T6 it's still 2s because the heavy d-scythe is bumped up to Str 12 in the codex.
Fafnir wrote: Hive Tyrants will be T7 with the new codex. Although it will be possible to increase that to T8 during the game.
How much are tyrants? I mean they are tougher and have more wounds than wraithlords, and have more attacks, and are faster and can fly, so if they're not at least 250 points then they're kinda broken.
I don't understand this like bright lance concern. Eldar are amazing anti tank.
Being spears even with the laser lance and xatapulys do great anti tank damage. Even against T8, and I'm not even talking about charging. Even with out charging equal points of spears beat crimson hunts in damage against tanks.
Repeats as folks say are great.
A large unit of fire dragons can web way and smoke several vehicles. Even more so grabbing guide.
You can run a barebone Flyrant for 170 points, while a groundpounder is 143. Even more decked out loadouts shouldn't get above 250. Two powers a turn, as well as providing SITW.
This is index pricing, but no rumours have noted a change in Tyrant costs yet.
Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.
He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.
So, in preparing for a meta where our psychic presence is heavily stifled to the point of being self harming and hemlocks are just not all they're made out to be; what is our identity right now beyond Dark Reapers? Unit synergy is going to become a lot less reliable, and most units look pretty mediocre in the face of that. Is the Craftworld faction going to end up becoming little more than an accessory for Ynnari lists?
Fafnir wrote: So, in preparing for a meta where our psychic presence is heavily stifled to the point of being self harming and hemlocks are just not all they're made out to be; what is our identity right now beyond Dark Reapers? Unit synergy is going to become a lot less reliable, and most units look pretty mediocre in the face of that. Is the Craftworld faction going to end up becoming little more than an accessory for Ynnari lists?
10 reapers with yvraine and a wave serpant provides great firepower that you can protect for 1 command point a turn. 2 fire prisms give you the ability to out reliably efficient damage on a single target for 1 command point a turn. Crimson hunters give more survivable anti tank. Where is out anti horde - this is the problem. gardians in wave serpants? Is that the best we can do? Swooping hawks? Those are our best options IMO.
That or include dark elder for anti infantry...but man I really don't want to do that.
I'd argue that if an army can be hard countered by another faction, it's not competitive. Especially when that faction is looking like it's going to be a major player in the coming meta. You wouldn't take an army to a tourney with the expectation of writing off a portion of your games.
Fafnir wrote: I'd argue that if an army can be hard countered by another faction, it's not competitive. Especially when that faction is looking like it's going to be a major player in the coming meta.
Hard to disagree with that. Though I think a solid AM army has tyranids number pretty easily. So it looks like rock paper scisiors to me. with the 3 top factions. Space marines are kind of a wild card. If they go first they can probably wipe out half your army with guilliman - but if they go second they probably can't come back from that. I do consider elder a top 3 faction.
Fafnir wrote: Hive Tyrants will be T7 with the new codex. Although it will be possible to increase that to T8 during the game.
How much are tyrants? I mean they are tougher and have more wounds than wraithlords, and have more attacks, and are faster and can fly, so if they're not at least 250 points then they're kinda broken.
Oh and psychics.
I wouldn't expect their points to go up. I feel like they will be paying 200-230 points for their optimal load out.
Dionysodorus wrote: But the bigger issue for bright lances is just that there aren't many good platforms for them. You can't take something like a quad-las Predator, or a Dreadnought with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher, or a Devastator squad holed up in cover.
This is exactly the problem. Marines have at least 3 units off the top of my head that can pack 4 Lascannons, Eldar don't have anything that can take more than 2 of them (I suppose if you run squadrons of War walkers). Wave Serpents and Wraithlords generally want to move either to transport units or to get close to the enemy in order to hit them. Guardians sitting back with a Brightlance are paying for a lot of Shuricats that are not being used. The Falcon is an option but if you are going to use it as a static gun platform then I think the Fire Prism is a better bet.
Dark Eldar don't have this problem as Darklances become Assault when mounted on their vehicles. That is why DL-spam is a thing. If CWE had a similar rule then Brightlances would be a lot more viable. As it stands I think that War Walkers are the only unit that can spam them moderately effectively. The -1 to Hit when moving is a hindrance for Brightlances and you can only Guide one unit per turn. I know there are plenty of armies who would be happy hitting on a 4+ but they don't pay as much for their heavy weapons.
Ah but see this is where Beil-tan become amazing.
Take 2 squads of warwalkers, each with 3 walkers with double lances. Take an HQ farseer with Guide and natural leader .Guide one squad, lead the other. That 12 bright lances shots a turn that all reroll failed hits. And one of those can't be "deny the witched" at all so you have one he'll of a fire base that has a ton of total wounds, 5+ invulnerable save, and isn't too expensive.
After that you really should not need any other anti tank, so the rest of the army can focus on what ever you want. Reapers, some dire avengers, wave serpents with shuriken cannons, wraith lords with shuriken cannons, stock up on that sweet reroll 1's, 6's to wound explode, and force your opponent to play your game, not the other way around.
Has worked for me so far with amazing results. Just played a second game with this setup, adding in the second squad and switching my wraithlords to shurikens, space marine player I played never had a chance when I got 1st Turn. Popped 2 preds and a squad of Marines first turn, after that all he had left for anti vehicle was a final pred and a squad of missile devs, which could not kill 2 Wraithlords and 6 warwalkers in time to make a difference.
Xenomancers wrote: Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.
He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.
I find this opinion very interesting. What is everyone else's thoughts/experiences on the hemlock vs crimson hunter? I've played two games with the new codex, first with 3 hemlocks and second with 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter. In that second game my opponent ran three Crimson hunters. The hemlocks outperformed the Crimson hunters considerably, the auto-hits regardless of a degrading profile, combined with -2 with alaitoc, makes them insanely reliable through long portions of the game and require a lot of effort to deal with.
Both jets are great. Range can be a weakness of hemlock (like screening), but you have to pay something for OP. I'd probably mix them together if I had more than 2 jets (2 hunter 1 hemlock). Taking more hemlocks makes you outstanding against some things, but not all of them.
I'm participating in a 3 round local event. I've gotten one game in previously with a variation of the army, so this is a bit of a learning experience. Not sure what I will be facing today. Here is what I'm bringing:
Alaitoc Craftworld
Vanguard Detachment
Farseer, Singing Spear (Shiftshroud, Puritanical Leader)
2 x 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
1 x 5 Wraithguard with Wraithcannon
2 x 1 Wave Serpent with Twin Scatter and Shuriken Cannon
Outrider Detachment
Spirit Seer
1 x 6 Shining Spears with Laser Lance and 1 Star Lance
1 x 5 Swooping Hawks with Lasblaster
1 x 5 Warp Spiders with 6 Deathspinners, Powerblades
Airwing Detachment
2 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfigthers
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Brightlances, Pulse Laser
Not overly optimized. Needs to be WYSIWYG and painted, so there are some limitations in my list as a result. Ran out of time to swap out Twin Scatterlasers for Twin Shuriken Cannons.
I'll write up how things went and (hopefully) have some pics.
mmimzie wrote: I don't understand this like bright lance concern. Eldar are amazing anti tank.
Eldar don't have an anti-tank problem. The discussion was specifically that Brightlances (and to a lesser extent Starcannons and Scatter lasers) don't tend to synergise well with the platforms they tend to be mounted on. We don't have a unit that can take 4 Brightlances like Marines can take Dev squads or Predators. Most of our units that can take Brightlances can only take 1 or 2 and usually want to be mobile, either because they have CC potential like the Wraithlord, need to transport units like our Wave Serpents or have lots of short ranged guns to bring into range like Guardians.
War Walkers are the only exception in that they can spam heavy weapons and can take up a static firing position. The current rules favour Shuricannons on Guardians, Wraithlords and Serpents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Changing the subject, what seems to be the best option for Autarchs in the Codex, excluding Index options?
The Footarch does not have proper model (unless you want to proxy Yriel or a DA Exarch) and Wingtarch has a fusion pistol which does not work well if he wants to Deep Strike.
I am thinking that the Autarch on bike has the best wargear. He has the mobility to support any units that need buffing and you can chuck him into assault against weak units on his own at a pinch.
so had a game vs necrons....was really happy with shuriken cannons! Scatter laser was no where near as good but one turn I did hit with all 8 on a twin link and wound with all 8 too!
Doom decided the game again and again....and he wont let his warlord get charged by Banshees again!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a use for the Warlock Conclave!!!
Take a unit of 2 (mine are part of a Damned army). I keep them out of LOS.
The nice thing about them is that they get to take 2 powers and have access to the Conclave Strategem. From what I read you only need to have 1 alive to still use the Strategem.
So the tactics are this. Take Protect and Conceal. Deploy in the rear and use conceal on your firebase. When you pop out a 20 unit Defender Guardian with dual platforms in the Web Way Strategem they can use the 36" range to give that unit protect.
I suggest a Damned army on the Guardians and use the Black Guardian stratagem with the Celestial Shield.
My farseer pops in with the ShriftShroud and uses the Will of Asuryan. Throw in some deep striking Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks.
Now the Guardians with platform saves are 2+/3++ wont take morale casualties and 6+FNP and can do some serious damage and hopefully be enough of a distraction while the Wave Serpents deliver their cargo to finish the opponent off turn 2.
Take a unit of 2 (mine are part of a Damned army). I keep them out of LOS.
The nice thing about them is that they get to take 2 powers and have access to the Conclave Strategem. From what I read you only need to have 1 alive to still use the Strategem.
Not a bad idea. The Conclave stratagem can keep them out of range of DTW although you do still have to pass the Psychic test for the powers you want. I guess there is the Seer Council stratagem as well. I think you are right that it works best when you have a unit arriving from the Webway that really needs a crucial power casting on it to make it effective. A Guardian blob is one option but Quicken on a unit of 10 Wraithguard with D-scythes could be even more devastating. The only downside here is that if you whiff the Psychic test, those expensive Wraithguard are worthless.
Changing the subject, what seems to be the best option for Autarchs in the Codex, excluding Index options?
The Footarch does not have proper model (unless you want to proxy Yriel or a DA Exarch) and Wingtarch has a fusion pistol which does not work well if he wants to Deep Strike.
I am thinking that the Autarch on bike has the best wargear. He has the mobility to support any units that need buffing and you can chuck him into assault against weak units on his own at a pinch.
I'm not very happy with any of them, though I think the bike Autarch is probably best.
Ultimately, if you're using him purely for his buff, then you want to be buffing about six times his cost. So about 650 points for a Skyrunner. And that's an underestimate since often when the main thing he's buffing dies you then have much less use for him, so spending his points on more of the thing you're buffing gives you the same increase in offense while also making it harder to kill them all. This just doesn't happen very often unless you're bringing a superheavy. What it comes down to is that a Farseer offers a stronger benefit for a single huge shooting unit, with Guide, and Yvraine can give re-roll 1s to any one unit, and then both also have a strong second use (Doom, Fortune, WotP). Spiritseers are cheap and useful enough that you shouldn't be tolerating any tax in your HQs.
If you're also able to get a lot of shooting/CC out of the Autarch himself, he looks a lot better. Although it's very hard to use him in CC effectively since he's so vulnerable to getting ganked. A handy estimate is: N = ( 2 * autarch_cost / model_cost - autarch_firepower / model_firepower * 35/12 ) * 3. This tells you the number of models an Autarch needs to buff so that you're getting at least as much total firepower as if you'd just spent his points on more models. So for Dire Avengers and an index Autarch with 2 avenger catapults, autarch_cost is 73, model_cost is 12, and autarch_firepower / model_firepower is 2 (Autarchs get twice as many shots). You get that you need to be buffing 18.5 Dire Avengers. With Blazing Star of Vaul it's only 10 Dire Avengers. This is very doable.
Meanwhile the new foot Autarch is probably not worth very much by himself at all. Likewise the winged one. The Skyrunner is at least fast enough to get good use out of his catapults and could usefully charge in alongside Spears while staying reasonably well-hidden. Let's say we value his number of shots and attacks about the same as a regular Shining Spear (he gets more attacks but you're also going to be more cautious with him in CC). Then you want to be buffing 12 Shining Spears. You'll probably be buffing 9 if you're using him at all, and so then as long as you also hit a Serpent or some Guardians or a Crimson Hunter you're looking okay. But you should probably still strongly consider just taking those 108 points and buying another 3-man Spears unit.
The new Path of Command is certainly worth something, if you're going to have a Craftworld warlord anyway. If you'd be willing to pay 40 points for 2 CP then he's a pretty compelling pick. I wouldn't count on this long-term though. Because the Craftworld relics and warlord traits are so below average, it's probably going to make sense to have a Dark Eldar, Harlequin, or Ynnari warlord starting sometime next year. And even right now there seem to be strong arguments for taking Yvraine and some Ynnari units despite the fact that you lose out on relics and codex traits entirely.
Well I am going to go with the Warp Jump Autarch with Mark of the I. Hunter combined with the Reaper Launcher for 95 points.
It does seem a waste of the Warlord trait but the sniping can be very situational and am hoping for more uses than not.
On a side note: About abilities vs wargear.... The general consensus now is that Hemlocks stones, autarchs forceshields, etc are FREE? is that correct?
Shadenuat wrote: I'm kinda wondering what exactly is that general consensus is based on, since last time even on large tournaments people actually payed for them.
remember, Spirit Stones are not part of its wargear list, so it does not pay for them under most interpretations- though an official GW ruling on the matter, rather than just an ITC one, would be useful
And I think that with Autarchs and Hemlocks this is likely to be a big enough deal to get a FAQ answer in a week or two anyway, especially since surely they'll also be addressing index vs codex Autarchs.
Yeah, 200 price tag on Hemlock makes it's so much sweetier. Interesting thing is, Autarch on bike has it's own special rule - which is good design, yet others couldn't just get Battle Fortune, count the points in and forget about it. It's not like this shield is optional.
It is such a trivial matter to just clean up codex and replace wargear you can't do anything about with with a random special rule I don't understand why it's not a thing. Looks like designer's laziness to me.
admironheart wrote: On a side note: About abilities vs wargear.... The general consensus now is that Hemlocks stones, autarchs forceshields, etc are FREE? is that correct?
That does seem to be the case. You pay for Wargear but not abilities as they are part of the cost of the unit.
As a side note, Biketarchs have a 4++ save from their Peerless Agility ability rather than from a Forceshield. It would be odd if other Autarchs had to pay for their 4++while bike Autarchs got it for free.
You 100% have to pay for the spirit stone because thier is FAQ presadent. In imperium one the company commander gas a co bat shield that is not listed in his war gear. In an FAQ the question was asked if thus had to be paid for and the answer was yes. As such you probably also have to pay for the autarch force shield., but as karhedron says this is a sort of boon to the skyrunner autarch.
As for nids. Honestly, one of the hive is pretty good anti psykers. It would definitly feminist the power of a psykic heavy force. Even nids in general would with shadows of the warp. However it doesn't completely kill your chances. For one any alpha stone quicken style attack, and guide can all be cast out side of the range of most of the anti psykers effects. This is easier to do if you make your psykers skyrunner which in my opinion is the way way to run farseers and some of your warlocks any way.
The anti psykers hive is a none mobile hive. It's ability only comes into effect if you don't move, and it favors slow uniys. Additionally the only fast psykers the tyrannids have are flying hive tyrants. Things that I think we can kill pretty easily due to have easy access to tarfeting the model out. Do they die instantly?? No. However they arnt any cheaper than they were before ans if i rememver correct they are just as killy as they have been. I think they buffed the tail attack on this which is cool.
The spookiest thing I the mid force in my opinion will be the brood lors. Those will be difficult to deal with. You can target them out. They throw shadows at your psykers, and can deny and cast spell of thier own. More importantly they are also pretty fast, and cab make the attempt to follow your psykers around the table. Thus dampening your powers.
Honestly I think the new nids aren't much different than facing Magnus or Morty. Did you go first?? You're good. Went second??? Well it's a struggle, good luck.
To sum up the issue with Autarch force shields and Hemlock spirit stones:
These aren't listed as wargear on the models, and the ability rules text is different (in minor ways) from the text on models that have the option for wargear of the same name. Absent any FAQs, it seems clear that you wouldn't pay for these.
But there is a FAQ. The Imperium 1 FAQ has a question about Company Champions, who are like Autarchs in that they have an ability with the same name as wargear which bestows an invulnerable save. The answer says they have to pay for their wargear in addition to their weapons.
This leaves us in a pretty unfortunate spot:
First, there's a FAQ addressing a similar issue that says to pay for the stuff.
But obviously this is just not at all discoverable. The same issue exists in the current Codex: Space Marines, but the codex FAQ doesn't mention this. Most new Space Marine players won't even be aware of this, to say nothing of Eldar players. And since it's actually pretty hard to even see why there's an issue here, any Eldar player who isn't extremely plugged-in is probably going to leave it off. I remember several codex reviews that failed to include the cost of these things, and none that did include them, and these are by people who are obviously top 1% in terms of how aware they are of other factions' rules and FAQs and so on. Like, in terms of "how are people actually playing this?", almost certainly the large majority of Eldar players are taking these things for free.
Finally, it doesn't actually seem like the FAQ writer understood the issue. Nothing in the FAQ indicates that the writer was aware that the problem was that the Company Champion does not actually have a piece of wargear called "combat shield". The FAQ reads as if the question is whether models have to pay for wargear which they come with by default. You'll recall that this was a common source of confusion early in 8th -- lots of people were confused whether you even had to pay for default weapons. Further, the section of each index that talks about how you figure out the point cost of units only mentions "models" and "weapons", and (obliquely) "options and upgrades", so there may have been some legitimate confusion here about default wargear. So I think the RAI is really muddy too.
Xenomancers wrote: Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.
He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.
I find this opinion very interesting. What is everyone else's thoughts/experiences on the hemlock vs crimson hunter? I've played two games with the new codex, first with 3 hemlocks and second with 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter. In that second game my opponent ran three Crimson hunters. The hemlocks outperformed the Crimson hunters considerably, the auto-hits regardless of a degrading profile, combined with -2 with alaitoc, makes them insanely reliable through long portions of the game and require a lot of effort to deal with.
Their average damage is pretty equal statistically - the hunter is better against t7 vehicals too - considering it costs less and utilizes the 12" -1 to hit rule a lot better with 36 inch range weapons. It's a clear winner. Having powers is nice and all but keeping your flyer alive is more important than that.
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Dionysodorus wrote: To sum up the issue with Autarch force shields and Hemlock spirit stones:
These aren't listed as wargear on the models, and the ability rules text is different (in minor ways) from the text on models that have the option for wargear of the same name. Absent any FAQs, it seems clear that you wouldn't pay for these.
But there is a FAQ. The Imperium 1 FAQ has a question about Company Champions, who are like Autarchs in that they have an ability with the same name as wargear which bestows an invulnerable save. The answer says they have to pay for their wargear in addition to their weapons.
This leaves us in a pretty unfortunate spot:
First, there's a FAQ addressing a similar issue that says to pay for the stuff.
But obviously this is just not at all discoverable. The same issue exists in the current Codex: Space Marines, but the codex FAQ doesn't mention this. Most new Space Marine players won't even be aware of this, to say nothing of Eldar players. And since it's actually pretty hard to even see why there's an issue here, any Eldar player who isn't extremely plugged-in is probably going to leave it off. I remember several codex reviews that failed to include the cost of these things, and none that did include them, and these are by people who are obviously top 1% in terms of how aware they are of other factions' rules and FAQs and so on. Like, in terms of "how are people actually playing this?", almost certainly the large majority of Eldar players are taking these things for free.
Finally, it doesn't actually seem like the FAQ writer understood the issue. Nothing in the FAQ indicates that the writer was aware that the problem was that the Company Champion does not actually have a piece of wargear called "combat shield". The FAQ reads as if the question is whether models have to pay for wargear which they come with by default. You'll recall that this was a common source of confusion early in 8th -- lots of people were confused whether you even had to pay for default weapons. Further, the section of each index that talks about how you figure out the point cost of units only mentions "models" and "weapons", and (obliquely) "options and upgrades", so there may have been some legitimate confusion here about default wargear. So I think the RAI is really muddy too.
Ive been wrong too many times trying to figure out GW's logic so my opinion doesn't mean much here. It's just really silly to make an "ability" have the same name as a "wargear" and do exactly the same thing but you have to pay for one and not the other. An intelligent designer could do many things without entering into this confusion. If he wanted to force the hemlock to take the spirit stones but not be charged for it he could have just reduced the cost of the model by 10 points but say it has to be equipt with it - you pay for it but the models cost is reduced. Or they could have just named the ability something else like...enhanced spirit shielding - and then it would obviously be a free ability. To me - the fact that it is named spirit stones is a clear intention that it should be treated like all spirit stones - you pay 10 points.
mmimzie wrote: You 100% have to pay for the spirit stone because thier is FAQ presadent. In imperium one the company commander gas a co bat shield that is not listed in his war gear. In an FAQ the question was asked if thus had to be paid for and the answer was yes. As such you probably also have to pay for the autarch force shield., but as karhedron says this is a sort of boon to the skyrunner autarch.
100% wrong.
Well, you're 100% right if you play a Space Marine army, as the FAQ relates to Space Marines. Not just Vanilla marines, but all the chapters in Index: Imperium1. Wierdly, they then didn't correct the issue with the Space Marine codex - the shield is still listed as an ability not wargear, and the new SM codex FAQ doesn't correct it or specify that you pay for it, so they're back to where they started on that. But there is Index Errata precedent, so people can at least refer to that.
However, this is the Eldar Tactica, and so we only need to follow rules written in the BRB, the Eldar Codex, and any Eldar FAQ/Errata. We do NOT need to follow rules written in some other random codex release that we have no business even looking at. So we don't pay for abilities, until GW specifically says otherwise. They had a chance to correct this with the Codex, and they've had a couple of Errata releases to correct it, and they haven't. So until they do, we save 10 points on the Hemlock.
Will this change when they release the Codex Errata? Probably, if they even think about it. Until then, enjoy your free spirit stones.
I still find it ridiculous that people say this like it's true, as if an Eldar player should turn up to a game with FAQ printouts from armies they don't even play. It's no different than saying "oh, in order to play as Tau, you need to also bring the Necron, Eldar, IG and Tyranid codices with you, otherwise you might not know all the rules relevant to your units!"
If tournaments make a different ruling (which so far most haven't, as far as I've noticed) then that is their business, as they can make up any rules they want, it's their tournament. Tournaments set all sorts of rule changes and limitations, doesn't make any of them the official rules, just the rules for that tournament.
Hunter vs Hemlock is really target-dependent. Assuming a 200 point Hemlock, the 6+ FNP makes the two more-or-less equally durable per point except insofar as the Hemlock's shorter range makes it more vulnerable. This can be a big deal. The Hemlock is far more vulnerable to CC (Hive Tyrants, big Daemons, etc.) even if its overwatch is pretty scary, and it's going to take a lot of opportunistic fire from small arms. On the other hand, the Hemlock doesn't degrade noticeably as it takes damage.
Offensively, the Hemlock is as good or better against almost everything if it can stay away from enemy psykers. Smite puts it over the top. It's far better against things with invulnerable saves or with only a small number of wounds per model.
So for example against a big T7 3+ model, Hemlocks are paying about 28 ppw with Smite, while Hunters are paying 30 ppw (22.5 ppw if it has Fly but not Hard to Hit). If an enemy psyker is around to attempt to deny Smite, then the Hemlock is paying 30.6. It's really only when there are psychic bonuses or penalties involved that the Hemlock falls behind. Shadow in the Warp plus a deny attempt cuts the usefulness of Smite in half, so that the Hemlock is paying 32.2 ppw against T7 3+. Magnus with +2 to his deny rolls is slightly more effective than that, even. Of course, Crimson Hunters also have problems vs Hive Tyrants and Magnus, since they've got good invulnerable saves, but they do significantly better than Hemlocks as long as the Tyrants have wings. On the other hand, Hemlocks don't have to cast Smite, and Jinx on a Tyrant or Magnus is a huge deal if you have other units in place to take advantage of it.
I feel like Hunters have a place at least for the Tyranid matchup, but that Hemlocks are going to be overall better in an army which otherwise is getting right up in the enemy's face. Even against Tyranids, Hemlocks are often going to be able to usefully pick off non-psykers from outside deny range. Plus Hemlocks are just far better against an opponent who doesn't bring big models, especially with their -2 Ld bubble.
mmimzie wrote: You 100% have to pay for the spirit stone because thier is FAQ presadent. In imperium one the company commander gas a co bat shield that is not listed in his war gear. In an FAQ the question was asked if thus had to be paid for and the answer was yes. As such you probably also have to pay for the autarch force shield., but as karhedron says this is a sort of boon to the skyrunner autarch.
100% wrong.
Well, you're 100% right if you play a Space Marine army, as the FAQ relates to Space Marines. Not just Vanilla marines, but all the chapters in Index: Imperium1. Wierdly, they then didn't correct the issue with the Space Marine codex - the shield is still listed as an ability not wargear, and the new SM codex FAQ doesn't correct it or specify that you pay for it, so they're back to where they started on that. But there is Index Errata precedent, so people can at least refer to that.
However, this is the Eldar Tactica, and so we only need to follow rules written in the BRB, the Eldar Codex, and any Eldar FAQ/Errata. We do NOT need to follow rules written in some other random codex release that we have no business even looking at. So we don't pay for abilities, until GW specifically says otherwise. They had a chance to correct this with the Codex, and they've had a couple of Errata releases to correct it, and they haven't. So until they do, we save 10 points on the Hemlock.
Will this change when they release the Codex Errata? Probably, if they even think about it. Until then, enjoy your free spirit stones.
I still find it ridiculous that people say this like it's true, as if an Eldar player should turn up to a game with FAQ printouts from armies they don't even play. It's no different than saying "oh, in order to play as Tau, you need to also bring the Necron, Eldar, IG and Tyranid codices with you, otherwise you might not know all the rules relevant to your units!"
If tournaments make a different ruling (which so far most haven't, as far as I've noticed) then that is their business, as they can make up any rules they want, it's their tournament. Tournaments set all sorts of rule changes and limitations, doesn't make any of them the official rules, just the rules for that tournament.
I don't think it's fair to call him wrong. He found an identical situation and GW ruled in his favor on that. It's perfectly logical to assume they would rule the same way in an identical case.
Xenomancers wrote: Yes. So at T7 - even if you roll 6 hits every time - only 4 will wound and then he will pass 2 invo saves - this leaves you with 4 average damage which doesn't even diminish a hive tyrant. In reality though you only average 3-4 hits and your damage will be 2.
He can even repair D3 with a 1 point stratagem every turn. Hate to say it - but the hemlock craze is all hype. The main reason hemlocks were good was they could cast a conceal bubble and had reliable damage + could get up and smite things in the face late game. Without conceal and with the rise of tyranids - The crimson hunter is taking over. It can play at safe range - has higher damage potential and costs less. Hemlocks aren't even competitive within the craftworld codex I am afraid.
I find this opinion very interesting. What is everyone else's thoughts/experiences on the hemlock vs crimson hunter? I've played two games with the new codex, first with 3 hemlocks and second with 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter. In that second game my opponent ran three Crimson hunters. The hemlocks outperformed the Crimson hunters considerably, the auto-hits regardless of a degrading profile, combined with -2 with alaitoc, makes them insanely reliable through long portions of the game and require a lot of effort to deal with.
Their average damage is pretty equal statistically - the hunter is better against t7 vehicals too - considering it costs less and utilizes the 12" -1 to hit rule a lot better with 36 inch range weapons. It's a clear winner. Having powers is nice and all but keeping your flyer alive is more important than that.
If your opponent is shooting your flier. GREAT!!! you want them to kill that thing to be honest. Why?? Well let me ask what reason does your opponent have to kill your flier?? For the points the fliers do less damage to whatever they shoot, but are super durable. So if your opponent wants to remove anti vehicle threats they'd be better served shooting literally anything else.... THen when we look at winning the game... fliers can't claim objectives and they don't count toward seeing if you've been tabled or not. As such if your opponent is trying to win or objectives or tabling, or in other words if your opponent is trying to win the game they should ignore your flier. As such durability is the last aspect you want in your flier, and also for that reason i think you only want one or two at most for fliers in your list.
Damage wise i think both fliers do something that we have an embarrassment of riches in, and that's anti-armor damage. Bright lances can be slapped on everything, and are a pretty good anti armor option, and are fair priced. Some can take more for the points like war walkers, and others less.
From thier we have other exception anti armor options such as: Fire prisms which do the same or more than a hunter or hemlock against all toughness values, and can be raised to bonkers levels with the stratagem.
Shining spears that i think we all know are amazing despite the terrible models (kit bash them they look great that way <.<.
Repears are also quite great in the anti armor role, and other untis can be made passable.
So why take either flier??? If we were looking for mazing anti armor <.< honestly i wouldn't really take either I'd take a multie fire prism, multie shining spear units, and mayeb reapers (the repears aren't as durable though). As they more durable than the hunter?? debatable.... but as i said before that does matter.
The reason you take the hemlock specifically is pretty clear. IT has possible anti armor damage, andabout even at T6 and T8, and if you count in smite it wins against all targets. The reason you bring the hemlock is specifically the -2LD aura, and the negative runes of battle. You take the cost of one warlock off your army (really a spirit seer, but since you can't also do the positive side we'll be nice and take the warlock price off) even with the spirit stone points counted you get the same prices as a crimson hunter exarch. Then even more importantly the -2LD bubble.
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Eldar compared to other armies simply don't deal with hordes. They can't do it. They don't have a leg to stand on. THe -2LD bubble allows you to deal with these hordes as it force multiplies your hole army by picking up wounds accross multiple units via leader ship. Even nerfed eldar can't deal with concript blocks well, and infantry squads which were featured in a few of the recent tournament winning list we don't take down efficiently with anything we have. When compared to other armies that put out more anti horde level damage, and still struggle.
In summary:
The hemlock is like taking a cirson hunter exarch that does more damage and a warlock (who can still cast smite, but no positive buffs) and putting them together.
Flier durability doesn't really matter because it's already super high, and it doesn't directly help your opponent win either through tabling or objective control.
The -2LD bubble is borderline mandatory for eldar armies who lack the nessary anti horde damage other armies that still struggle against horde armies pack.
mmimzie wrote: You 100% have to pay for the spirit stone because thier is FAQ presadent. In imperium one the company commander gas a co bat shield that is not listed in his war gear. In an FAQ the question was asked if thus had to be paid for and the answer was yes. As such you probably also have to pay for the autarch force shield., but as karhedron says this is a sort of boon to the skyrunner autarch.
100% wrong.
Well, you're 100% right if you play a Space Marine army, as the FAQ relates to Space Marines. Not just Vanilla marines, but all the chapters in Index: Imperium1. Wierdly, they then didn't correct the issue with the Space Marine codex - the shield is still listed as an ability not wargear, and the new SM codex FAQ doesn't correct it or specify that you pay for it, so they're back to where they started on that. But there is Index Errata precedent, so people can at least refer to that.
However, this is the Eldar Tactica, and so we only need to follow rules written in the BRB, the Eldar Codex, and any Eldar FAQ/Errata. We do NOT need to follow rules written in some other random codex release that we have no business even looking at. So we don't pay for abilities, until GW specifically says otherwise. They had a chance to correct this with the Codex, and they've had a couple of Errata releases to correct it, and they haven't. So until they do, we save 10 points on the Hemlock.
Will this change when they release the Codex Errata? Probably, if they even think about it. Until then, enjoy your free spirit stones.
I still find it ridiculous that people say this like it's true, as if an Eldar player should turn up to a game with FAQ printouts from armies they don't even play. It's no different than saying "oh, in order to play as Tau, you need to also bring the Necron, Eldar, IG and Tyranid codices with you, otherwise you might not know all the rules relevant to your units!"
If tournaments make a different ruling (which so far most haven't, as far as I've noticed) then that is their business, as they can make up any rules they want, it's their tournament. Tournaments set all sorts of rule changes and limitations, doesn't make any of them the official rules, just the rules for that tournament.
you say they didn't correct the issue... but what if to GW it isn't an issue and it should be obvious you ahve to pay.... so then thier is nothing to correct, and no mistake was made...
Edit: similar rules situations were present in AoS where they said that if the issue is the same in other armies it will apply. This was the case with the ring of immortality and pheonixs coming back to life. If you are familiar with that issue.
Also in 7th the techmarine rules and FAQs for repairing models were also said to apply to the techpriest in mechanius. The FAQ is organized to help you sort for relavent information, but they aren't restricted to only apply thier. No where is it stated otherwise
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think it's fair to call him wrong. He found an identical situation and GW ruled in his favor on that. It's perfectly logical to assume they would rule the same way in an identical case.
Oh, I agree with that, it's perfectly logical to assume that GW would rule in that way. The whole point though is that they haven't ruled it in either direction yet.
It also wouldn't be the first time that one army has a rule that goes one way, and another army gets a rule that goes the total opposite way.
Just look at traits/attributes. Going by that logic, Craftworld Attributes should only affect infantry, bikers and wraithlords, as that is the precedent set by the space marine codex. But GW defied that logic, and gave attributes to all craftworld units.
So yeh, while there's precedent to believe that GW *might* rule in favour of spirit stones costing points, there's also equal precedent to assume that they will rule the complete opposite.
So until there is a ruling one way or another (which so far, there isn't), you do not pay for Hemlock spirit stones.
Hopefully GW clear it up in the Errata for the codex in the next couple weeks, but I wouldn't count on it.
Dionysodorus wrote: Hunter vs Hemlock is really target-dependent. Assuming a 200 point Hemlock, the 6+ FNP makes the two more-or-less equally durable per point except insofar as the Hemlock's shorter range makes it more vulnerable. This can be a big deal. The Hemlock is far more vulnerable to CC (Hive Tyrants, big Daemons, etc.) even if its overwatch is pretty scary, and it's going to take a lot of opportunistic fire from small arms. On the other hand, the Hemlock doesn't degrade noticeably as it takes damage.
Offensively, the Hemlock is as good or better against almost everything if it can stay away from enemy psykers. Smite puts it over the top. It's far better against things with invulnerable saves or with only a small number of wounds per model.
So for example against a big T7 3+ model, Hemlocks are paying about 28 ppw with Smite, while Hunters are paying 30 ppw (22.5 ppw if it has Fly but not Hard to Hit). If an enemy psyker is around to attempt to deny Smite, then the Hemlock is paying 30.6. It's really only when there are psychic bonuses or penalties involved that the Hemlock falls behind. Shadow in the Warp plus a deny attempt cuts the usefulness of Smite in half, so that the Hemlock is paying 32.2 ppw against T7 3+. Magnus with +2 to his deny rolls is slightly more effective than that, even. Of course, Crimson Hunters also have problems vs Hive Tyrants and Magnus, since they've got good invulnerable saves, but they do significantly better than Hemlocks as long as the Tyrants have wings. On the other hand, Hemlocks don't have to cast Smite, and Jinx on a Tyrant or Magnus is a huge deal if you have other units in place to take advantage of it.
I feel like Hunters have a place at least for the Tyranid matchup, but that Hemlocks are going to be overall better in an army which otherwise is getting right up in the enemy's face. Even against Tyranids, Hemlocks are often going to be able to usefully pick off non-psykers from outside deny range. Plus Hemlocks are just far better against an opponent who doesn't bring big models, especially with their -2 Ld bubble.
Crimson can also take 2 star cannons - which makes it a great anti infantry/light vehicle specialist too. The ability to specialize within your list is another bonus for the hunter. Typically though - my elder forces are looking for anti tank - shurikens seems to handle things with low wound counts no problem.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't think it's fair to call him wrong. He found an identical situation and GW ruled in his favor on that. It's perfectly logical to assume they would rule the same way in an identical case.
Oh, I agree with that, it's perfectly logical to assume that GW would rule in that way. The whole point though is that they haven't ruled it in either direction yet.
It also wouldn't be the first time that one army has a rule that goes one way, and another army gets a rule that goes the total opposite way.
Just look at traits/attributes. Going by that logic, Craftworld Attributes should only affect infantry, bikers and wraithlords, as that is the precedent set by the space marine codex. But GW defied that logic, and gave attributes to all craftworld units.
So yeh, while there's precedent to believe that GW *might* rule in favour of spirit stones costing points, there's also equal precedent to assume that they will rule the complete opposite.
So until there is a ruling one way or another (which so far, there isn't), you do not pay for Hemlock spirit stones.
Hopefully GW clear it up in the Errata for the codex in the next couple weeks, but I wouldn't count on it.
Honestly the fact that it's an FAQ means the way they wrote the rule isn't an error. GW doesn't think they did anything wrong, or thier is a mistake. IF they thought they messed up in how your supposed to point your stuff they would have errata'd the marine combat shield into the the wargear.
As as i can see, wargear that is none weapon related doesn't appear in the wargear section. SO it seems none weapon wargear that isn't optional appears in the ability section as a rule of thumb.
So until they FAQ otherwise you do infact pay for the hemlock spirit stone and autarch shield.
If your opponent is shooting your flier. GREAT!!! you want them to kill that thing to be honest. Why?? Well let me ask what reason does your opponent have to kill your flier?? For the points the fliers do less damage to whatever they shoot, but are super durable. So if your opponent wants to remove anti vehicle threats they'd be better served shooting literally anything else.... THen when we look at winning the game... fliers can't claim objectives and they don't count toward seeing if you've been tabled or not. As such if your opponent is trying to win or objectives or tabling, or in other words if your opponent is trying to win the game they should ignore your flier. As such durability is the last aspect you want in your flier, and also for that reason i think you only want one or two at most for fliers in your list.
This isn't true at all. Eldar flyers are actually very efficient damage-dealers. A Hunter costs about the same as the perfectly-respectable Ravager, but has almost 33% more firepower. It has far more anti-tank firepower than a single (stationary!) Fire Prism; I have no idea why you say a Prism does better. A Hunter has almost as much firepower as a 190 point (again, stationary) quad-las Predator. And as I noted in my last post, a Hemlock with Smite matches or beats it against almost every target. Hemlocks do as well or better than standard Dark Reapers against pretty much everything you'd actually want to shoot at with Dark Reapers, absent Yvraine. You need to go to Fire Dragons or Shining Spears to find something that delivers the pain more efficiently, and flyers can reliably do it every single turn until they get destroyed, which is hard to do because they're actually pretty durable.
Edit: Outside of one match vs Brimstone Horror spam, I don't think I've ever played a game where it would have made sense for my opponent to just ignore my Hemlocks in favor of trying to table the rest of my army, and I typically play with 3 flyers. 3 Hemlocks often threaten to more-or-less table the non-GEQ components of many lists by themselves.
you say they didn't correct the issue... but what if to GW it isn't an issue and it should be obvious you ahve to pay.... so then thier is nothing to correct, and no mistake was made...
I mean, this would be stupid even for them. No reasonable person can think that it's obvious that Autarchs have to pay an extra 6 points because they have an ability called force shield. Like, most players probably do not even realize that there's a wargear entry of the same name, period. It appears as an option on a single, not-very-popular unit, and, even if they could provide that information if asked, they have to be conscious of it at the same time as they're reading the Autarch entry so that they can put two and two together. Most people aren't even going to get to the point where they have to ask whether the absence of force shield as explicit wargear means that it's free (which RAW it clearly would be, absent the Imperium 1 FAQ which very few Eldar players will ever read). I would honestly be pretty surprised if this isn't addressed in the upcoming FAQ, but if it's not addressed I'm going to feel like GW is comfortable with the way that almost every Eldar player is actually going to end up playing it.
Hemlock 3.5hitsx(2/3)wounds = 2.33
Smite assuming no denial or screens = 1.95
4.3 average damage.
Crimson 2x bright lance 1.65 hits +reroll 1's +.222 x (2/3) Wounds x 3.5damage = 4.36
pulse lase 1.65 hits x +.222 x (2/3) wounds x3 damage = 3.75damage x (5/6) 6+ save= 3.14
7.5 average damage.
Again - hemlocks don't deal more damage against a rhino than a hunter even when you factor smite. Plus smite is easily denied or screening by chaff...So really - a hunter is close to being twice as effective against t7 armor as a hemlock.
Hemlocks average 4 shots, not 3.5, and those shots do 2 damage each. Smite also averages only ~1.8 wounds (you may have mistakenly had it do d6 wounds on a 10+ rather than an 11+). They average 7.13 wounds on a Rhino.
Crimson Hunters hit on a 3+ when they move, not a 2+, so they expect 1.33 hits with each kind of weapon, not 1.67. Regular Hunters don't re-roll anything unless the target has Fly. They average 5.33 wounds on a Rhino.
I did some numbers in an earlier post today about how denying affects this. Regular denies only cut Smite to 1.2 average wounds. It's only when you start bringing in SitW or Magnus that it becomes a big problem.
So... with our ability to use webways, I'm thinking of giving Footdar a run again. Tentative build I'm looking at. Assume the exarch is in all the units.
Craftworld Ulthwe
Eldrad
Asurman
Autarch
10x Dire Avengers
10x Dire Avengers
10x Dire Avengers
5x Rangers
8x Fire Dragons
10x Warp Spiders
1 Vyper w/ 2 ShuriCannons
10 Dark Reapers
10 Dark Reapers
3 War Walkers w/ Scatters
The idea if the DA and Reapers with HQ hold a solid firebase down in my zone, and use the High Speed/Deep Strike for the rest of the army to surround/annoy the opponent, and hopefully keeping him distracted from the real threats. I'm going to be unable to test anything out until March unfortunately, given the vagaries of military life...
Fireprism does respectable damage to all kinds of targets - that's why they are valuable. Their anti tank isn't better than a crimson. It does under 7 average damage to a t7 tank. Fire prisms really shine when shooting at terminators and meq.
Hemlock 3.5hitsx(2/3)wounds = 2.33
Smite assuming no denial or screens = 1.95
4.3 average damage.
Crimson 2x bright lance 1.65 hits +reroll 1's +.222 x (2/3) Wounds x 3.5damage = 4.36
pulse lase 1.65 hits x +.222 x (2/3) wounds x3 damage = 3.75damage x (5/6) 6+ save= 3.14
7.5 average damage.
Again - hemlocks don't deal more damage against a rhino than a hunter even when you factor smite. Plus smite is easily denied or screening by chaff...So really - a hunter is close to being twice as effective against t7 armor as a hemlock.
Hemlocks average 4 shots, not 3.5, and those shots do 2 damage each. Smite also averages only ~1.8 wounds (you may have mistakenly had it do d6 wounds on a 10+ rather than an 11+). They average 7.13 wounds on a Rhino.
Crimson Hunters hit on a 3+ when they move, not a 2+, so they expect 1.33 hits with each kind of weapon, not 1.67. Regular Hunters don't re-roll anything unless the target has Fly. They average 5.33 wounds on a Rhino.
I did some numbers in an earlier post today about how denying affects this. Regular denies only cut Smite to 1.2 average wounds. It's only when you start bringing in SitW or Magnus that it becomes a big problem.
You are right I did make some mistakes on the math. Crimson hunter exarchs reroll 1's to hit though. I will fix my errors.
Had a game earlier today with some LOS terrain I was able to deploy Reapers behind. Towards corner of board. Enemy could DS near them and had forewarned to discourage it anyway. Had a decent size unit of them just cripple or destroy a tank each turn with no return fire thank to moving back begins the los blocking terrain after their move.
With 13CPs I felt I had freedom to burn them on things like this each turn. Between the Reapers and the Hemlocks, wipes out all the armoured targets on the board in 2 turns.
I will try 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE next time instead of 3 Hemlocks..
Doing the Hemlock Conga line also came in handy to keep the resulting foot sloggers at bay from objectives I was holding.
Xenomancers wrote: Fireprism does respectable damage to all kinds of targets - that's why they are valuable. Their anti tank isn't better than a crimson. It does under 7 average damage to a t7 tank. Fire prisms really shine when shooting at terminators and meq.
What about 2 Fire Prisms plus the 1CP stratagem? How much better than a single Fire Prism, not just in terms of firepower but survivability?
Just wondering as you brought the unit up and I haven’t fielded two Fire Prisms simultaneously yet.
Xenomancers wrote: Fireprism does respectable damage to all kinds of targets - that's why they are valuable. Their anti tank isn't better than a crimson. It does under 7 average damage to a t7 tank. Fire prisms really shine when shooting at terminators and meq.
What about 2 Fire Prisms plus the 1CP stratagem? How much better than a single Fire Prism, not just in terms of firepower but survivability?
Just wondering as you brought the unit up and I haven’t fielded two Fire Prisms simultaneously yet.
For typical anti-tank shooting, the stratagem is a 78% increase in expected damage. Which is really good. Against a Rhino you go from expecting 3.56 wounds to expecting 6.32 wounds, per Prism. So that's respectable. 2 Prisms and a CP expect to kill a 10-12W vehicle. Though note that even with the stratagem this is only about the same as a Crimson Hunter Exarch (or regular Hunter near an Autarch). Prisms are paying a lot for S9 and access to the dispersed mode. The stratagem also has a major drawback in that the Prisms have to shoot the same target, so you're likely to overkill it.
I don't understand the question about survivability. I guess the stratagem allows you to keep one Prism out of LoS, but the other will just get shot instead unless you use Fire and Fade too, and I doubt that all this work will generally be worth it. The main thing to keep in mind when you have multiple Prisms is that your opponent has a lot of reason to try to kill all but one of them, so you're painting targets on them. Killing 1 of your 2 Prisms cuts your anti-tank firepower by 70%.
What about Alaitoc & -1 to hit stratagem on top of it to make enemy shooting less effective? How about target priority? (prisms working together with serpents carrying something on the level of Yvraine & WG)
The prisms sorta having "weak link" is understandable, but they're very pleasing aesthetically and it's first edition when they can do *something*, since one where they would lose their main gun turn 1 and then score you objectives rolling Holo-Fields. I finally want to melt something with them. They also have that 2d6 anti-infantry option.
Problem is, 2 is not that survivable, while 3 is an overkill. And you can't bring 2x2 and make it work with the deathstar card.
If you have a unit of say, for example, 10 reapers sitting within 6” of a farseer, they can light up *anything* they can see deepstriking within the 48” range of their weapons for 2 CP? And this happens during the opponents movement phase, like for example, if the opponent with tempestus command squads likes to drop them first turn? And there’s no penalty on the to-hit rolls, like with auspex scan, and they presumably benefit from nearby autarchs and phoenix lord rerolls? And you can do this over and over again until your CPs run out?
Screening against turn one alphastrikes now obsolete?
If you have a unit of say, for example, 10 reapers sitting within 6” of a farseer, they can light up *anything* they can see deepstriking within the 48” range of their weapons for 2 CP? And this happens during the opponents movement phase, like for example, if the opponent with tempestus command squads likes to drop them first turn? And there’s no penalty on the to-hit rolls, like with auspex scan, and they presumably benefit from nearby autarchs and phoenix lord rerolls? And you can do this over and over again until your CPs run out?
Screening against turn one alphastrikes now obsolete?
yeah....kinda makes the auspex scanner from the space marines codex look like crap. that has to be at -1 and only within 12 inches lol.
If you have a unit of say, for example, 10 reapers sitting within 6” of a farseer, they can light up *anything* they can see deepstriking within the 48” range of their weapons for 2 CP? And this happens during the opponents movement phase, like for example, if the opponent with tempestus command squads likes to drop them first turn? And there’s no penalty on the to-hit rolls, like with auspex scan, and they presumably benefit from nearby autarchs and phoenix lord rerolls? And you can do this over and over again until your CPs run out?
Screening against turn one alphastrikes now obsolete?
Well I mean, for a start it's 2CP, so you won't be able to do it very much, or if you do you won't be able to use any other stratagems. It's hardly cheap.
And you can only do it once per turn, so if your opponent is doing a Turn 1 Alpha Strike, you can only shoot at one of their incoming units.
So depending on the unit thats incoming, the Dark Reapers may be able to take out 3 or 4 models from a single incoming alpha strike unit. For 2CP.
Hardly all that overpowered. The only part of it that stands out is the range - the Reapers can shoot at a deep striking unit up to 48" away. Might make the enemy have to think twice before picking model placement.
With Fire and Fade, keep your transports near your FireDragons and if they get los blocking from the WS ....you will usually get a 2nd turn drop then 3rd turn shoot again and jump in the WS. Usually after a WS drops off the cargo.... the opponent will rarely shoot at the WS.
One thing about Forwarned is that most armies have 1 to 3 deep striking units so it is very effective unless the opponent is trying to overload on Deep strike and with half their units deployed....only a few army builds will actually have too many for you to be overwhelmed with....so its a 2 cp use once per game.
Eldar Shortseer wrote: What about 2 Fire Prisms plus the 1CP stratagem? How much better than a single Fire Prism, not just in terms of firepower but survivability?
Well in terms of firepower it gives both Prisms the equivalent of Guide and Doom which is pretty handy, it also means one can hide outside LOS.
Survivability is harder to measure, especially when you start stacking to-Hit modifiers. Are the FPs Alaitoc? Are the aircraft? I have often found the FPs greatest defense is its range. You can sit in a corner and not much will be able to touch it. You do need to bubble wrap though if you are relying purely on range for defense otherwise Deep Strikers will have a field day.
Also bear in mind the mind games being played with Forewarned. Imagine your opponent has 3 units to DS with 1 of them being what you want to shoot at. They can deploy the first 2, you don’t shoot at them, then they choose not to DS the third unit.
You have lost the opportunity to shoot at either of the prior 2 units. If you were to shoot at them, opponent could safely deploy their biggest DS threat without fear. They now have a turn of shooting and Melee to deal with your Reapers before they have the next opportunity to DS their main unit.
Yes they have not DS’d their unit that turn which is still helpful so the Stratagem has had an indirect impact, but may lead to all their units DS without being shot at.
Sarigar wrote: I'm participating in a 3 round local event. I've gotten one game in previously with a variation of the army, so this is a bit of a learning experience. Not sure what I will be facing today. Here is what I'm bringing:
Alaitoc Craftworld
Vanguard Detachment
Farseer, Singing Spear (Shiftshroud, Puritanical Leader)
2 x 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
1 x 5 Wraithguard with Wraithcannon
2 x 1 Wave Serpent with Twin Scatter and Shuriken Cannon
Outrider Detachment
Spirit Seer
1 x 6 Shining Spears with Laser Lance and 1 Star Lance
1 x 5 Swooping Hawks with Lasblaster
1 x 5 Warp Spiders with 6 Deathspinners, Powerblades
Airwing Detachment
2 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfigthers
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 Brightlances, Pulse Laser
Not overly optimized. Needs to be WYSIWYG and painted, so there are some limitations in my list as a result. Ran out of time to swap out Twin Scatterlasers for Twin Shuriken Cannons.
I'll write up how things went and (hopefully) have some pics.
We had 13 players: 4 Eldar, 4 Imperial Guard, 4 Chaos, 1 Genestealer Cult. We played ATC missions except we use the +1 to initiative roll if you finish deploying first. No Marines?
I had first round bye as we had several folks who were from out of town and made easy. I get 10 points.
Round 2 vs a Magnus/Brimstone Chaos army. The huge takeaways was my opponent's deployment. With Cultists and Brimstones, he blocked me out so I had to drop in front of his army. Also, Slaanesh Obliterators are very strong. He had a lot of psychic nullifying abilities. He stole the initiative which gave his Nurglings the ability to get and keep the Relic (Primary Objective). I took a 10-9 loss.
Round 3 vs IG. 12 Leman Russ Tanks with Pask! I was not sure I had enough firepower to go through that many hulls. I got first turn, Played the army aggressive and dropped 2 tanks turn 1 and continued to weather the shooting. Alaitoc Trait came into play here quite a bit. I lost one Hemlock, but afterwards, never lost another wound as they were too difficult to target and the Wraithguard were too much of a threat. I tabled him on turn 6 for max points.
Missed 3rd by one point; not bad for not playing game one.
Units
-: Hemlocks are fantastic but I think nearly all Eldar players agree. My biggest challenge is do I take swap out the Crimson Hunter Exarch for a third Hemlock?
- Crimson Hunter Exarch. Getting reroll '1' to hit rolls was clutch, especially in the game against IG. Definitely worth the extra 15 points. For me, it is competing against a 3rd Hemlock in an Airwing. I could look into taking a fourth flier, but points would definitely get tight.
- Warp Spiders. Poor unit to be honest. They did very little against Chaos and just held my home objective against IG. Dropping them.
- Hawks. They did exactly what I use them for: hold an objective that my opponent can't shoot at. For 65 points, they do an admirable job at this. I shot once with them and out of 20 shots, killed 2 Brimstones. Yeah, not overly impressive for shooting.
- Spiritseer: Against Chaos, Quicken got denied twice! Against IG, he worked exactly as intended by getting Shining Spears into the heart of IG tanks to blow one up and force another to get out of assault the following turn.
- Shining Spears: They hit really hard! They dropped a Rhino, Bezerker Squad and Chaos character who was the Warlord in one turn. Very impressed with this unit. I'd like to develop ways to play them better as they got crushed in both games after their initial punch.
- Wraithguard: D-Scythes forced my Chaos player to not be as aggressive as he could not get the assaults lined up quite right. Against the IG, they were the primary target as they had to get within 12", so I lost my Alaitoc bonus. Extremely good, but using the Webway portal for a squad is very situational. Against Chaos, I was completely boxed out and my Wraithguard/Wraithcannon were wasted. Against IG, they were rock stars.
Alaitoc Craftworld: It has merit and I definitely need to play it more to get a better feel. It really hindered IG, but they have things like reroll '1' to hit (Cadia doctrine) and Leman Russ firing twice really helps mitigate the -1. Hemlocks and Wraithguard get in so close so fast, I'm not quite sure I need this trait. It did help get my two Wave Serpents into position, but I don't think that was game breaking. I'm wondering if Ulthwe' would be more useful for my army; and then look at taking Eldrad.
Psychics: I cast Smite, Executioner, Doom, and Quicken. Until GW neuters Smite, it is just that good of an ability for me. If it hinders my army, it also hinders other army builds, so I won't be too upset if I have to change things up a bit.
Stratagems: I used Webway Assault to great effect against IG, but wasted it against Chaos with their deployment strategy. I planned on Fire and Fade to land on the relic, shoot and Fire and Fade move away with it. But, being seized changed that plan. I mainly used Command Points for rerolls. I was judicious with them against Chaos, but burned 5 out of 6 on turn 1 against IG on turn 1 (I was going for the alpha strike). I'd like to get more Command Points, but need to explore building a Battalion.
Overall, the list hit pretty hard, but needs a few tweaks. Going up against an army with good psychic defenses can really put a damper on my list. This is a key where I think running Ynnari makes an even greater case for better efficiency. I really did not utilize Battle Focus and the Alaitoc may not be the best fit for my style of army.
Out of the Eldar armies, all four were VERY different.
Alaitoc Craftworld: Bikes, Rangers, 3 Crimson Hunters, and a smattering of Aspect Warriors (took 2nd place overall)
Alaitoc Craftworld: 12(?...a lot) Vypers and 3 Fire Prisms: Crazy list, but lost his last game against a Chaos army and gained no points from it which crushed his score. I think he was 8th or 9th.
Ulthwe Footdar: Avatar, Eldrad, 5 squads of Reapers and Maugan Ra, Banshees, Guardians. Won two, but didn't garner many points and he got 0 points on his loss putting him at 10th place. But, the Reapers definitely convinced me I need some. It's the one unit I know is points efficient, but don't currently own. That will be rectified.
Looking forward to getting more games in as I really like all the options this codex affords us.
I just double checked in case I did something wrong or missed something and in the codex and there is nothing in there for warwalkers that states they act independent of each other after deployment, so they are a single unit of 3 that must keep squad coherency, so when the power fortune targets a unit all 3 get the bonus.
You are totally correct. How strange. This actually increases my opinion of war walkers as it means they can take buffs from psychic abilities the same as Vypers can. Vypers get the benefit of craftworld attributes though, but even so I think war walkers pull ahead (if you have a psyker near them).
Might even be good to have a warlock nearby, conceal would give the war walkers the equivalent of the Alaitoc -1 to hit, or protect/jinx could improve your invulnerable to a 4++ or drop the enemy unit's saves if they get close enough.
You are talking as if War Walkers don't benefit from craftworld attributes, you know they can right?
I am not a fan of the new war walkers scout ability. I love the Phantasm stratagem. That and the old WW index ability was a nice way to mess with deployment and goad your opponent to setting up incorrectly.
Quick Question:
I think Phantasm doesn't work this way....but since you already fulfilled normal deployment and have your 50% of your units on the table. Then the first battle round begins and you use Phantasm......
1} Did you already determine who goes first?
2| Can you now take those Phantasm units and put them in reserves and make it so you have less than 50% on the table?
It does say in the Strategem that you follow normal deployment. So devil's advocate would sell it as you need to fulfil the 50% quota.
Just hoping there is a loophole there. Would help in every game that you lost first turn if you could do this.
1 or 2 uses of Fire And Fade {2 cp}
1 use of Forwarned {2cp}
1 to 3 uses of Command ReRoll {3 cp}
1 WebWay Strike {1cp}
1 Celestial Shield {1cp}
Maybes:
1 Black Guardians {1cp}
1 Concordance of Power {1cp}[casting Quicken 36" away]
1 Phantasm {2cp}
1 use of Supreme Disdain {1cp}{24 Storm Guardians with Chainswords jumping out of webway for 48 dice + about 8 more]
1 use of Treasures {1cp}
So that is a minimum of 6 CPs
My question is this: If I use Webway and jump 24 Ulthwe Storm Guardians out with Black Guardian Defenders in the Fight phase and Supreme Disdain. Does the +1 from Black Guardians make Supreme Disdain work or rolls of 5 and 6? If so 48 Dice would become +16 instead of +8 on average.
That is a lot of slapping. Throw in some warlord/psychic shenanigans and the odds could make Storm Guardians almost worthwhile lol
What is the best way to run 20 man webway guardian bombs?
Ulthwe seems obvious and needs less support, but also looks to be cp heavy (1 cp for drop, 1 for 2+ bs, 1 for shield or fade and fire).
Biel-Tan needs the least support/cp with built in re-rolls. But will die right after with no support.
Alaitoc can bring a farseer or spiritseer along, using the relic shroud, for doom/guide or conceal. Fire and Fade helps since they can be 19 inches out after firing. If you go this route the warlord trait isn't awful for fearless too.
Iyanden has the lowest damage potential, but you never have to worry about casualties or morale. They can get stuck in on an objective.
What is everyone thinking? Is it worth supporting them when they drop (Alaitoc) or just using the unit as a fire and forget bomb (Ulthwe, Biel-Tan)? Any other combos or use cases I overlooked?
Alaitoc also has the advantage that if the Warlord drops in the same time using the relic Shroud, the Guardians are immune to Morale which is a big deal on a 20-man blob.
In my own games the only stratagems I have used have been the base ones and the avatar one once. Swarmlord charges and kills avatar. Avatar "revives". Now it's my turn. Avatar returns the favor.
I just double checked in case I did something wrong or missed something and in the codex and there is nothing in there for warwalkers that states they act independent of each other after deployment, so they are a single unit of 3 that must keep squad coherency, so when the power fortune targets a unit all 3 get the bonus.
You are totally correct. How strange. This actually increases my opinion of war walkers as it means they can take buffs from psychic abilities the same as Vypers can. Vypers get the benefit of craftworld attributes though, but even so I think war walkers pull ahead (if you have a psyker near them).
Might even be good to have a warlock nearby, conceal would give the war walkers the equivalent of the Alaitoc -1 to hit, or protect/jinx could improve your invulnerable to a 4++ or drop the enemy unit's saves if they get close enough.
You are talking as if War Walkers don't benefit from craftworld attributes, you know they can right?
I actually don't remember why I put attributes... I can't even remember writing this haha. Might have been very, very tired.
I think I was just talking about the Saim-Hann attribute specifically. Vypers don't get the movement penalty on heavy weapons, but war walkers do. But you'd just use a different attribute for walkers anyway.
Played my first game with ulthwe last night against emperors children. I got to go first and just played defensive. I had 2 - 20 man guardian drops that I saved until he got close on the second turn and I had 20 dire avengers in 2 serpants. The rest of my army was 2 fire prisms a crimson hunter - eldrad a farseer and 2 warlocks and 2 D cannons.
Fire prisms - crimson hunter and D cannons managed to kill a rhino and a 10 man noise marine and seriously hurt a maulerfiend. Next turn he moved up - focued the D cannons and killed both and he tried to damage the prisms with range but failed. Start of turn 2 I brought out all my infantry and it was pretty much over at that point.
1 unit of gardians (w 2 bright lance) I used to destroy his other noise marine rhino with 10 more noise marines in it with the help of doom and Black gardians stratagem (he popped smoke). The prisims killed the 10 noise marines inside with their linked fire stratagem and the low power fire mode (did 12 wounds). The other 20 man guardian dropped in front of his defiler - plus 20 dire avengers also targeted it. I casted jinx of the defiler so those infantry wiped it out with just guide on the guardians and the hunter went (which had conceal on it) killed a dreadnought.
Basically - I felt like I had all the tools to control the game. it really helped having 2 battalions. The ability to drop 40 guardians on someone on demand is REALLY strong though. Ulthwe do it best I think because they can use black guardians on 1 unit and guide the other. Plus the FNP is amazing.
DCannon4Life wrote: Quick note for those of you using Fire and Fade to Embark: Don't get used to it.
Why not? You can't disembark and embark on the same turn anyway, so you still have to stay on the table for a whole turn either way, so there's no reason to change the rule. The stratagem just means they get to shoot once more before embarking, which for 1CP is probably about right. Maybe a little cheap, but other Eldar stratagems are too expensive so it balances out.
Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?
The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.
The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.
I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.
Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
Niiru wrote: Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?
The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.
The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.
I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.
BS2+ on the Hunter seems to make it better for tank hunting. CTMs are just not that good, and are hard to work with on the Phoenix and Nightwing because their two kinds of guns want to be shooting different targets, and you want to be far away from the enemy anyway so your favored target probably won't be closest. The Phoenix is incredibly tanky, yeah, and seems like good competition for a Hunter Exarch with starcannons. The Nightwing just doesn't shoot well enough. Also note that the Phoenix's blind missiles don't really work -- the effect wears off at the end of the turn.
Fafnir wrote: Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins. Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?
I still think the Defender Guardians with protect/celestial shield and platform soaker saves are easier to pull off and cheaper. Just an option....
Still if you face a horde army like nids The Storm Guardians will be a blunt at the very least.
Speaking of Nids...the psychic dampening is going to really hurt elder. It will be crucial to kill Zoans and use long long range to keep those at bay. Concordance of Power in a warlock conclave may actually have some use in that regard....not enjoying the thought of fighting nids.
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with ulthwe last night against emperors children. I got to go first and just played defensive. I had 2 - 20 man guardian drops that I saved until he got close on the second turn and I had 20 dire avengers in 2 serpants. The rest of my army was 2 fire prisms a crimson hunter - eldrad a farseer and 2 warlocks and 2 D cannons.
Fire prisms - crimson hunter and D cannons managed to kill a rhino and a 10 man noise marine and seriously hurt a maulerfiend. Next turn he moved up - focued the D cannons and killed both and he tried to damage the prisms with range but failed. Start of turn 2 I brought out all my infantry and it was pretty much over at that point.
1 unit of gardians (w 2 bright lance) I used to destroy his other noise marine rhino with 10 more noise marines in it with the help of doom and Black gardians stratagem (he popped smoke). The prisims killed the 10 noise marines inside with their linked fire stratagem and the low power fire mode (did 12 wounds). The other 20 man guardian dropped in front of his defiler - plus 20 dire avengers also targeted it. I casted jinx of the defiler so those infantry wiped it out with just guide on the guardians and the hunter went (which had conceal on it) killed a dreadnought.
Basically - I felt like I had all the tools to control the game. it really helped having 2 battalions. The ability to drop 40 guardians on someone on demand is REALLY strong though. Ulthwe do it best I think because they can use black guardians on 1 unit and guide the other. Plus the FNP is amazing.
Thats exactly how I felt after playing nids with Eldar. I have heard others say that Eldar don't have good 'horde' control units which I just don't see. Dire Avengers in Serpents with Dual Shuriken Cannons are amazing light infantry wipers.
Your D-Cannons really sound like they scared him. Are they worth picking up? I was thinking of getting a support Battery to put near my Warwalkers as a bit more fire support.
Fafnir wrote: Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.
Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.
Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?
Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.
For 230 points and 0CP (maybe 35 points for a Warlock to Quicken), I can get a unit of Shadow Spectres to blast a unit to ribbons with their diffuse beam, doing 23 wounds on marines/conscripts/gaunts at -1, and then charge another (assuming non dedicated CC target, obviously). With -1 innate to be hit and a 3+ save, they're far more durable without spending any command points.
Shining Spears are in the same boat, with a 9 man squad costing 281 points and 0CP (once again, throw in a warlock for Quicken if it gets your rocks off) capable of inflicting 12AP0, 4AP-3, and 5AP-4 wounds with shooting against gaunts/conscripts (bit worse against Marines), following up with 11AP-4 wounds in close combat. Moreover, they're T4 with 2 wounds each and a 4++ against shooting attacks innately.
No matter how you cut it, the Storm Guardians just come up as a bad investment.
I still think the Defender Guardians with protect/celestial shield and platform soaker saves are easier to pull off and cheaper. Just an option....and if you face a horde army like nids it will be a blunt at the very least.
At the cost involved, the Nids would happily eat your Guardian deathstar.
Speaking of Nids...the psychic dampening is going to really hurt elder. It will be crucial to kill Zoans and use long long range to keep those at bay. Concordance of Power in a warlock conclave may actually have some use in that regard....not enjoying the thought of fighting nids.
As I've said earlier, the Craftworlds/Nids matchup is looking to be extremely heavily weighted in the Tyranid favour. There's looking to be very little to be done to properly deal with Tyranid threats while also presenting a worthwhile threat on our own.
Niiru wrote: Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?
The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.
The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.
I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.
BS2+ on the Hunter seems to make it better for tank hunting. CTMs are just not that good, and are hard to work with on the Phoenix and Nightwing because their two kinds of guns want to be shooting different targets, and you want to be far away from the enemy anyway so your favored target probably won't be closest. The Phoenix is incredibly tanky, yeah, and seems like good competition for a Hunter Exarch with starcannons. The Nightwing just doesn't shoot well enough. Also note that the Phoenix's blind missiles don't really work -- the effect wears off at the end of the turn.
Hahaha omg. I didn't notice it says "end of turn". It's clearly meant to mean battle round, or end of opponents turn, as there's no point to that rule otherwise. I'll be sure to add that in, thanks
Niiru wrote: Hi everyone, working on the FLyer section and I have to ask... whats wrong with the Phoenix and the Nightwing?
The Phoenix gives you a Heavy 2, S9 AP-3 D3 pulse laser, and a choice of two pretty good missile arrays (nightfire being particularly good for Alaitoc, or anyone really). For 164 points. Which is like 40+ points cheaper than the Hemlock or 20+ less than the Crimson Hunter, and while there are some pros and cons they seem comparable. The Phoenix has a bonus 4 Wounds over either option though.
The Nightwing gets you 2 bright lances and 2 shuriken cannons, and the ability to get +1 to hit if you really want it, and it's even cheaper than the Phoenix. I had it at 140 points I think.
I never seem to hear people talk about them though, as if the Hemlock was straight up better (which maybe it is, because of D-Scythes and Psyker), but I've heard the Crimson Hunter mentioned a few times lately for long-range tank hunting, and I'm not sure why the Phoenix or Nightwing aren't better than the Crimson Hunter at least.
BS2+ on the Hunter seems to make it better for tank hunting. CTMs are just not that good, and are hard to work with on the Phoenix and Nightwing because their two kinds of guns want to be shooting different targets, and you want to be far away from the enemy anyway so your favored target probably won't be closest. The Phoenix is incredibly tanky, yeah, and seems like good competition for a Hunter Exarch with starcannons. The Nightwing just doesn't shoot well enough. Also note that the Phoenix's blind missiles don't really work -- the effect wears off at the end of the turn.
Hahaha omg. I didn't notice it says "end of turn". It's clearly meant to mean battle round, or end of opponents turn, as there's no point to that rule otherwise. I'll be sure to add that in, thanks
The Swooping Hawk Sunrifle in the index is the same way. Removed totally in the Codex though.
Fafnir wrote: Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.
Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.
Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?
Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.
Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?
In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”
Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.
Fafnir wrote: Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.
Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.
Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?
Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.
Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?
In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”
Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.
What he's saying is other thing do the job better.
For instance as he says the spears have the storm guardians number. In most situations wiht no investments the spears are way more consistant than the guardians. Then from thier with buffs the spears ramp in power more dramaticly. give them +1 to hit, quicken for that turn 1 charge, Supreme distain, and you ahve a monster mashing units.
Honestly myself i've been eying storm guardians from ulthwe way really hard, and they do definitely seem great, but you just don't get enough out of it to feel good about yourself at the end of the day. Getting them into the fight alone is hard. They can't thier alone at all. So if something comes up like an army dropping a culexus in your face reducing your psychic or going against anti psyker nids you kind of compound this weakness. While, in the same situation with spears or something they aren't too upset as they are fast and hard hitting enough to deal with things un aided.
The real difference is i can drop the warlock support team into my army with farseer support and a full squad of shining spears, and i won't feel bad at all about it. The spears can work all on thier own should the warlocks and co need to support something else or if they get taken out.
However the storm guardian module you speak of falls appart really hard if your support is gone. SO much so that they become pretty much useless very quickly. You gotta think your basicly paying twice the price for a guardsman with +WS/BS, a worse gun, and +2 movement. It just doesn't work out well, and when you do pull off the magic you don't get a lot out of it. Where pulling of the magic with spears you can pretty much win the game off that move.
Fafnir wrote: Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.
Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.
Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?
Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.
Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?
In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”
Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.
He has a point. That Autarch and Warlock aren't going to be suddenly useless after you've attacked with those storm guardians. The Guardians might not do their big attack until turn 2 (for example), but in turn 1 your warlock could buff/debuff a seperate unit entirely. Especially if it's on a jetbike. And after the guardians have done their big attack and have become an expendable tarpit unit, the warlock can go off and help buff your other units that are now getting into other fights.
It involves timing maybe, and strategic placement of units, but then thats kinda the point of the game (and this thread).
Not saying it's a good idea, as I haven't examined it that closely or tested it in a game, but everything is worthy of trying.
Fafnir wrote: Including the cost of the Autarch and Warlock to cast Enhance, you're looking at minimum 298 points and 2 command points for that. And that's before you factor in your delivery method and any potential losses you'll suffer on your way there.
That's a pretty huge investment to kill 30 conscripts or 10 marines.
But if you spend the 1 cp more for the webway and use quicken you can throw a huge target in your enemies force with pile ins.
Three. You want to keep that Autarch with the squad. Now we're up to 298 points and 5 command points.
Then use Celestial Shield on his turn to keep a lot from dying. Killing a unit, engaging others in hth and then soaking up fire with the invulnerable saves+Protect is easily worth 300 points in a game. What unit can do that for 300 points that the craftworld has?
Now we're up to 6CP and 298 points. That's going to be between 50-100% of your CP at most ranges. Also keep in mind that your opponent likely isn't going to try to kill your Guardians with lascannons. Bolter fire will do just fine in taking them off the table.
Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?
In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”
Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.
He has a point. That Autarch and Warlock aren't going to be suddenly useless after you've attacked with those storm guardians. The Guardians might not do their big attack until turn 2 (for example), but in turn 1 your warlock could buff/debuff a seperate unit entirely. Especially if it's on a jetbike. And after the guardians have done their big attack and have become an expendable tarpit unit, the warlock can go off and help buff your other units that are now getting into other fights.
It involves timing maybe, and strategic placement of units, but then thats kinda the point of the game (and this thread).
Not saying it's a good idea, as I haven't examined it that closely or tested it in a game, but everything is worthy of trying.
Right, I think the storm guardian idea is kind of a stretch, has a lot of moving parts and a lot that can go wrong.
I’m just questioning the logic of saying that a 140-point unit of guardians supported by other parts of the army costs 300 points. That’s like saying a 5-man tac squad with a lascannon, using Guilliman’s rerolls, is spending 450 points for a single lascannon shot.
Eldar work well by combining different abilities and buffs to gain a temporary, localized advantage. I would like to be able to discuss these possible combinaitons (even the ones that don’t work).
They do actualy fairly good damage to GEQ and MEQ targets when compared to all the units we have.
However, this is also kind of a lie. Melee units always do good damage when they make it, but the real thought is can they make it??
They self deliver with the access to deep strike native, but that's still a 9" charge so we gotta off set that.
With biel-tan we can get thier charge to 7" and this works great as you're still cahrging out side of flamer range and that's a 58% chance to make it. That said they need to be in biel-tan & spend 2 CP. ALso only one unit can benefit from this at a time. Odds are you aren't taking the avatar as he's not worth it so you won't really be getting that down to a 6" charge.
Next we have saim-hann (forgive me i'm a saim-hann fan boy ). That re-roll charge can be pretty nice bringing your charge chance down to 47.8% cc chance, and this can be used for every scorpion unit in your list. So 3 squads your bound to make it in with one or two. Also the application of 1 CP reroll stratagem bumps that charge chance to just above 50% if you use it while you have a 5 or 6 showing.
Damage wise they are pretty good. Coming up along side some of out best against MEQ and GEQ units, and if said unit is in cover the scoprions will out damage most things we have in the first turn damage catagory. Again though this is off set by your chance to make melee. One thing to think about is do you get the +1 if your opponent only has a toe in cover with one model, or does the whole unit need to be getting the benefits from cover. hmmmm...
Buff wise they love buffs. Warlock +1 to hit make them happy panda's as the exarch loves getting more attacks. The supreme distain stratagem works well on them. If your opponent is in cover that's more explosions and also on 5+.
Other than that they don't really swing well against other units due to lacking abit in AP, against something like terminators your really only getting the exarch attacks almost.
I don't see having an issue with tyrnaids at the moment.
Take Beil-tan.
Base dire avengers with an exarch with dual shuriken rifles inside wave serpents with shuriken cannons make direct swarm control squads with high mobility. And everything rerolls 1's.
Shining spears and warlock on jet bikes, not that I think we need Quicken but taking it along in case doesn't hurt anything. These guys can be mid level elite unit death dealers, use them to deal with things that need to die but like to hide or have a weakness like warriors, biovors, or any thing with a toughness of 6 or less.
2 squads of warwalkers, 3 Walkers each, with dual bright lances or dual missile launchers (I prefer missile launchers myself). Take farseer with the leader warlord trait and guide. That's free rerolls on both units. If you don't get guide Off that's still free rerolls on one of the squads.
After that spend whatever points you have left on what you want. Wraithlords, avatar of Kaine, maybe an autarch for more Support? There are a lot of options.
That storm guardian supreme disdain tactic is so cool!
As others have said, adding the cost of the support psykers when determining the efficiency of the tactic is wrong. The cost is 168pts and a couple of CPs.
However the real problem is that you need to get Quicken off on them which makes it unreliable (the odds of castling quicken with a reroll + the odds of making the 9" charge if you don't aren't too bad though). Guardian Defenders can be relied upon to get into shooting range even if all your support powers fail.
The potential of having 24 Storm Guardians come out of the webway and charging with Quicken, Enhance, Empower, Doom, Jinx, Discipline of the BG and Supreme disdain to slaughter 20+ Khorne Berzerkers is hilarious though.
Supreme Disdain looks like a stratagem made for Scorpions, since someone mentioned them. It can potentially triple Exarches attacks while others roll 5s if target unit in cover (whatever "in cover" means).
mmimzie wrote: SO striking scorps. Can we talk them now???
They are amazing and bad all at the same time.
They do actualy fairly good damage to GEQ and MEQ targets when compared to all the units we have.
However, this is also kind of a lie. Melee units always do good damage when they make it, but the real thought is can they make it??
They self deliver with the access to deep strike native, but that's still a 9" charge so we gotta off set that.
With biel-tan we can get thier charge to 7" and this works great as you're still cahrging out side of flamer range and that's a 58% chance to make it. That said they need to be in biel-tan & spend 2 CP. ALso only one unit can benefit from this at a time. Odds are you aren't taking the avatar as he's not worth it so you won't really be getting that down to a 6" charge.
Next we have saim-hann (forgive me i'm a saim-hann fan boy ). That re-roll charge can be pretty nice bringing your charge chance down to 47.8% cc chance, and this can be used for every scorpion unit in your list. So 3 squads your bound to make it in with one or two. Also the application of 1 CP reroll stratagem bumps that charge chance to just above 50% if you use it while you have a 5 or 6 showing.
Damage wise they are pretty good. Coming up along side some of out best against MEQ and GEQ units, and if said unit is in cover the scoprions will out damage most things we have in the first turn damage catagory. Again though this is off set by your chance to make melee. One thing to think about is do you get the +1 if your opponent only has a toe in cover with one model, or does the whole unit need to be getting the benefits from cover. hmmmm...
Buff wise they love buffs. Warlock +1 to hit make them happy panda's as the exarch loves getting more attacks. The supreme distain stratagem works well on them. If your opponent is in cover that's more explosions and also on 5+.
Other than that they don't really swing well against other units due to lacking abit in AP, against something like terminators your really only getting the exarch attacks almost.
I think it is more important to deep strike them into cover as opposed to a close to your target as possible. In cover these guys get 2+ save. You can then plan for a more reliable next turn charge. This is situational of course dependening on cover availability but it is an alternative to going for the first turn charge.
Do I correctly understand the logic of your argument, Fafnir, that says temporarily combining some parts of your force in support of each other creates a kind of mega-unit that can only competitively be sent up against units of equal or greater points value?
In my codex, a unit of 20 storm guardians is 140 points. It’s not like using other units to buff them expends points that can’t later be used for something else. Concentrating superior forces temporarily against a weaker part of the opponent’s force is what some tacticians call “localized superiority.”
Nothing personal, but I feel like the whole “you can’t use S points to kill a unit of Y” argument tends to discourage discussions like the one admironheart is trying to have about how to combine units in order to maginfy their effects.
Oh I am not saying that he is wrong...but his argument is like you said completely mischaracterized. He did not include the 24 Shuriken Pistol Shots, the Autarch or psyker shooting not to mention the weapons they could bring into hth. Take their survivability into it and boom you probably have an equal or better survival rate than his counter argument.
I think it is very difficult to pull off the Storm Guardian maneuver with Deny the Witch and even with a reroll you will miss your test a lot on quicken ...then you can be left high and dry. The Defender Guardians with a 2+/3++ save with 6+ FNP is way easier and can still get in hth to lock up a unit.
We now have the Banshees, Jain Zar, Autarch with Warp Jump+Banshee Mask, the Warlord trait as option to prevent overwatch on the Storm/Defender guardians.
If the support is hard to get remember we have a 36" range Conclave stratagem that is a cost of 60 points for 2 warlocks that can use Conceal the rest of the time. (this tactic will be very important when facing nids and to prevent DtW rolls in general)
I faced Necrons a bit ago in an off the cuff game and messed up my webway positioning and implementation. After turn 1 it looked over for me. Scorpions dead, 20 Defenders dead in a 1000 point game. Then Doom and Protect and Jinx and Smite came into play. He was tabled by turn 6. I still had remenants of all my other units left except for a warlock. Pychics can turn things around in a big way. His Shadow Spectres group better have some back up in the enemies backfield.
From the battle reports Ive read it seems those hard hitting Spectres and Spears get targeted and often wiped after the enemy spends his whole counter turn taking them down. That is supposed to be your best unit....your main punch per se. The storm guardians are nothing more than a distraction so that the WS and fire dragons, banshees, etc can bog down his line so that your meaty gun line stays unmolested and does it job to finish off the opponent.
Although I think there will always be better ways to run your warlord, I REALLY want to combo Supreme Disdain with the Ambush of Blades trait and some +1 to hit modifiers. Scorpions would be cool with that.
So, looking for a bit of input in regards to part of the list I’m building with the intention of it being competitive.
Section in question is the Saim-Hann Outrider detachment. Currently it is –
Autarch Skyrunner with Saim-Hann lance relic (likely warlord with no overwatch trait)
8 Shining Spears with Exarch and Star Lance
1 Vyper with Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon
1 Vyper with Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon
1 Hemlock Wraithfighter
Personally, I can’t decide on the Vypers. The Starcannons make sense due to them ignoring the -1 to hit, but at 75 points a pop I’m not sure they are worth it or whether I should drop 1 for some Hawks. The full list is currently 2000 points so only have 718 points to play with (potentially 722). I’d like to keep it as Saim-Hann, as the Spears will prob come in via the webway so will be relying on the stratagem for re-roll hits of 1 and the re-roll charge (if I don’t get Quicken off on them).
The full list is –
Alaitoc Battalion
Spiritseer x2
5 Rangers x2
5 Dire Avengers
6 Shadow Spectres with Exarch (cos I had 4 spare points)
Hemlock
Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons
The Storm Guardian thing sounds a lot like what Chaos can do with Cultists. They have characters that give hit and wound re-rolls in CC, and DttFE and Prescience give them lots of extra attacks against Imperium units. It's effective. Granted, Cultists are half the price of Guardians and Doom isn't that great unless you're throwing all of them at one big unit. I agree that you're probably better off using Defenders, and possibly even charging with them to tie stuff up, while buffing something else.
Dumb ? for the morning.
How do you get WraithGuard to shoot!
Mine never seem to make it within range of that bloody short 8"s.
example.
Unit jumps out of the webgate.
Cant shoot that turn as they are 9"s away from target.
On enemy turn unit moves 5"s or more away.
On my turn I move my 5"s.
I am still outside the bloody range!.
So to nuetur the WG all ya got to do is move 5"s away.
tirnaog wrote: Dumb ? for the morning.
How do you get WraithGuard to shoot!
Mine never seem to make it within range of that bloody short 8"s.
example.
Unit jumps out of the webgate.
Cant shoot that turn as they are 9"s away from target.
On enemy turn unit moves 5"s or more away.
On my turn I move my 5"s.
I am still outside the bloody range!.
So to nuetur the WG all ya got to do is move 5"s away.
tirnaog wrote: Dumb ? for the morning.
How do you get WraithGuard to shoot!
Mine never seem to make it within range of that bloody short 8"s.
example.
Unit jumps out of the webgate.
Cant shoot that turn as they are 9"s away from target.
On enemy turn unit moves 5"s or more away.
On my turn I move my 5"s.
I am still outside the bloody range!.
So to nuetur the WG all ya got to do is move 5"s away.
Take Wraithcannons or a Wave Serpent or use Quicken warlock power
I have Wraithcanons! They only have 8" range. which appears to be my problem.
Even if I took a wave serpent, wouldnt I still have same issue?
I get out of wave serpent , target unit not within the 8"s and we are back to same issue. They move 5"s or more and I can never catch them :(.
For such an expensive unit, and being Eldar, ya thing they could shoot a bit further!
Wraithcannons are 12". The scythes are 8". They are expensive but also really tough. Don't jump out Wave Serpent if you can't then hit the target. Premeasuring is allowed.
If you use the flamers they have an 8" range but you can advance and shoot without penalty so its a 5+ D6" move. The Cannons are 12" so should be in range out of the webway. Wave serpents have always worked for me.
I was playing around with how best to fit Ynnari into new Craftworld armies. I feel like there are a couple of obvious stratagem/unit synergies. The hard part is fitting everything you want into a list.
Some new tricks:
We now have reasonable screening units in Alatoic Rangers. These can protect a big Dark Reaper squad and will also trigger a Soulburst when they die.
Dark Reapers are now pretty worthwhile even without a reliable Soulburst. We can bring small 3-man units to sit near the larger blob. They'll get great use out of their tempest launchers while being protected by the presence of the big Ynnari squad. Small Craftworld Shining Spears squads can be similarly protected by their proximity to a large Ynnari squad, and this can help deal with the fact that psychic powers can only buff one unit.
Quicken and Fire & Fade make it much easier to trigger useful Soulbursts on short-ranged units, especially when combined with Webway Strike.
You can mix and match craftworlds in your Ynnari detachment to take advantage of Craftworld-specific stratagems.
So for example, for ~800 points you get Yvraine and full squads of Guardians, Dark Reapers, and Fire Dragons or Shining Spears. You have to make this a detachment, but you can do this by taking generally good stuff like a Spiritseer and Guardians in Serpents (though the Serpents will technically be part of the Craftworld detachment). Then you have an Alatoic Ranger Battalion with some small squads of Dark Reapers or Spears thrown in, and maybe a Hemlock.
Then you deep strike the Guardians and Dragons/Spears. In your psychic phase you Quicken the Aspects to get them into melta/lance range. You use WotP on the Reapers to shoot and maybe trigger a Soulburst with your close-in Aspects. In your shooting phase the Guardians shoot and then use Fire & Fade to get into Soulburst range of an enemy. The Aspects open up on something at point blank range, and Soulburst if they haven't already. And the Reapers shoot again. At some point the Guardians Soulburst from all the stuff you're killing near them and shoot again too.
Regarding D-scythes vs Wraithcannons: Remember that when you disembark, the unit only has to be within 3", not wholly 3". This means that you get 3" + most of your base size. So let's assume that's about 4" total, then you get to move 5" + D6 advance. 9+D6" + 8" range = 18-23" from the Serpent's hull. How are you not getting in range of your target with D-scythes?
All you have to do is move within 12" of several enemy targets and you are guaranteed to get something in range (or force them to flee a huge bubble away from your army). Considering a Serpent can move 16+D6", this should never be an issue.
Dionysodorus wrote: I was playing around with how best to fit Ynnari into new Craftworld armies. I feel like there are a couple of obvious stratagem/unit synergies. The hard part is fitting everything you want into a list.
Some new tricks: We now have reasonable screening units in Alatoic Rangers. These can protect a big Dark Reaper squad and will also trigger a Soulburst when they die.
Dark Reapers are now pretty worthwhile even without a reliable Soulburst. We can bring small 3-man units to sit near the larger blob. They'll get great use out of their tempest launchers while being protected by the presence of the big Ynnari squad. Small Craftworld Shining Spears squads can be similarly protected by their proximity to a large Ynnari squad, and this can help deal with the fact that psychic powers can only buff one unit.
Quicken and Fire & Fade make it much easier to trigger useful Soulbursts on short-ranged units, especially when combined with Webway Strike.
You can mix and match craftworlds in your Ynnari detachment to take advantage of Craftworld-specific stratagems.
So for example, for ~800 points you get Yvraine and full squads of Guardians, Dark Reapers, and Fire Dragons or Shining Spears. You have to make this a detachment, but you can do this by taking generally good stuff like a Spiritseer and Guardians in Serpents (though the Serpents will technically be part of the Craftworld detachment). Then you have an Alatoic Ranger Battalion with some small squads of Dark Reapers or Spears thrown in, and maybe a Hemlock.
Then you deep strike the Guardians and Dragons/Spears. In your psychic phase you Quicken the Aspects to get them into melta/lance range. You use WotP on the Reapers to shoot and maybe trigger a Soulburst with your close-in Aspects. In your shooting phase the Guardians shoot and then use Fire & Fade to get into Soulburst range of an enemy. The Aspects open up on something at point blank range, and Soulburst if they haven't already. And the Reapers shoot again. At some point the Guardians Soulburst from all the stuff you're killing near them and shoot again too.
I'm working on something similar, but trying hard to shoehorn in Wraithguard with D-Scythes. Ynnari are a hard list to make, because it requires just insane synergy to make it worthwhile.
Now i feel like a bloody idiot!
I had chosen D-scythes first and then changed back to WCs.
I messed up my stats and didnt notice I didnt change them too.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: If you use the flamers they have an 8" range but you can advance and shoot without penalty so its a 5+ D6" move. The Cannons are 12" so should be in range out of the webway. Wave serpents have always worked for me.
This is probably the most reasonable way to move Wraithguard around. 5 + 1d6 (a flat 6 with Matchless Agility in a pinch). This is going to be referencing any time after they have reached their destinations with whatever delivery system you choose. That should probably be either Webway Strike or a Wave Serpent as previously mentioned. Both weapon kits for them are Assault, so they are free to Advance on any movement and still be able to fire (Wraithcannons at -1, sadly), but you should be able to drive them into a position to do some damage. You always have Quicken, though I wouldn't form strategies around a reliance on that (see: D-Scythe Wraithguard coming out of Webway Strike need Quicken to close that extra inch to fire). If you Webway Strike, I think you pretty much must drop in Wraithcannons to start getting points back out of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been working on my core army list, I figure I'll share it here for people to tear up and laugh at. I've been playing Biel-tan, and my opponent absolutely hates the trait, and we both agree it has been really valuable.
As a base I am running 2 Battalion Detachments:
2 Farseers (1 with Doom/Executioner - 1 with Guide/Fortune)
2 Spiritseers (both with Protect/Jinx)
2 Squads of 5x Dire Avengers (Exarchs with double Catapults)
2 Squads of 5x Rangers
1 Squad of 10x Guardians with a Bright Lance Platform
1 Squad of 20x Guardians with two Shuriken Cannon Platforms
That all comes for just over 800 points. I usually play around from there, but I try to work into a Spearhead Detachment with 2 Fire Prisms and usually a double Shuriken Cannon Warwalker. That gets me to 10 CP, and still have 750 points to go in a 2000 list (and only needing 1 HQ for Detachment requirements). A Wave Serpent usually makes an appearance, too, if for nothing else than to protect the Dire Avengers turn 1 and give them a bit of a movement jump when they disembark.
The Guardians usually Webway Strike alone. I try to control the middle of the map, extending my deployment zone 12-18 inches forward with Wave Serpents, Dire Avengers, Rangers appearing unbidden, Warwalkers, and Guardians if there is a plump target to shred with the Shuriken storm. That creates a really strong buffer for my Fire Prisms, keeping pesky melta and plasma deep strikers away. I've shielded a Wraith Knight much the same way, and it really put a lot of pressure on him to dig all that out... Wraith Knight followed forward once deep strikers were all accounted for and he had some more freedom to pick his targets (used Heavy Wraithcannons and Star Cannons, got a melee on turn 2 and 3 with it, as well).
Deployment, I usually keep the buffing Farseer in a pocket near a Fire Prism, had the Wraithknight here as well. That allows me to have Guide and Fortune on near targets that will be targeted by my opponent. I thought about bringing both Fire Prisms closer together, as I could Natural Leader one, Guide the other, save CP from Linked Fire if I really wanted to. There's tons of possibilities, but Stormwind buffs a lot of my forward units... I can be a bit more picky on what I pass out the valuable buffs to. My Spiritseers both take Protect/Jinx, the spell seems just a bit above the others in terms of what it usually does in game. I can always find a reason to cast either side of the spell, and if 1 Spiritseer gets whacked, I don't lose all my access to those spells. My last HQ is usually another Spiritseer, and I've been trying a lot of stuff, but nothing seems to stand out as "must have" like Protect/Jinx.
Doom has been absolutely ridiculous with the mess of 4 and 6 Strength Shuriken weapons. I don't believe a Doomed target has survived through the first couple of Shuriken volleys, much less surviving the turn.
Surviving first turn is usually a matter of placing Rangers forward as speed bumps to buffer my deployment zone a bit, it doesn't solve Alpha strikes, but lessens them.
Best part of the army is Battle Focus. Being able to run and shoot pretty much the whole army with no penalty makes sure I get my units where they need to be, never an inch or two short on range, or having half the squad out of range, half in. Adding that with the Stormwind trait for rerolling A LOT of 1's allows me to bring a lot of fire to bear against the middle of the field. Also, it untethers me from Autarchs to get those rerolls, saving 70+ points per, and allows my buffs to go to quality shooting units instead of quantity.
My most recent list looked like this (I used flat Biel-tan Craftworld because... fluff but, a mix of craftworlds would probably be best. I'll note what I think the best is per detachment. There's enough flexibility in the list to really customize past the 1250 point range.
Battalion Detachment: Biel-tan
Farseer (Doom, Executioner)
Farseer (Guide, Fortune) (Warlord with Natural Leader, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan)
5 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Dual Catapults
5 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Dual Catapults
20 Guardian Defenders, 2 Shuriken Cannons
5 Howling Banshees, Exarch w/ no upgrades
1 Wave Serpent with Shuriken Cannon and Twin Shuriken Cannons
Battalion Detachment: Biel-tan or Alaitoc (Alaitoc is probably better)
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with ulthwe last night against emperors children. I got to go first and just played defensive. I had 2 - 20 man guardian drops that I saved until he got close on the second turn and I had 20 dire avengers in 2 serpants. The rest of my army was 2 fire prisms a crimson hunter - eldrad a farseer and 2 warlocks and 2 D cannons.
Fire prisms - crimson hunter and D cannons managed to kill a rhino and a 10 man noise marine and seriously hurt a maulerfiend. Next turn he moved up - focued the D cannons and killed both and he tried to damage the prisms with range but failed. Start of turn 2 I brought out all my infantry and it was pretty much over at that point.
1 unit of gardians (w 2 bright lance) I used to destroy his other noise marine rhino with 10 more noise marines in it with the help of doom and Black gardians stratagem (he popped smoke). The prisims killed the 10 noise marines inside with their linked fire stratagem and the low power fire mode (did 12 wounds). The other 20 man guardian dropped in front of his defiler - plus 20 dire avengers also targeted it. I casted jinx of the defiler so those infantry wiped it out with just guide on the guardians and the hunter went (which had conceal on it) killed a dreadnought.
Basically - I felt like I had all the tools to control the game. it really helped having 2 battalions. The ability to drop 40 guardians on someone on demand is REALLY strong though. Ulthwe do it best I think because they can use black guardians on 1 unit and guide the other. Plus the FNP is amazing.
Thats exactly how I felt after playing nids with Eldar. I have heard others say that Eldar don't have good 'horde' control units which I just don't see. Dire Avengers in Serpents with Dual Shuriken Cannons are amazing light infantry wipers.
Your D-Cannons really sound like they scared him. Are they worth picking up? I was thinking of getting a support Battery to put near my Warwalkers as a bit more fire support.
You are basically getting a vindicator for 75 points. They aren't too tough and you can't buff them with spells because they split up after deployment. They seem like a great buy though if you are going for a ranged build.
Your D-Cannons really sound like they scared him. Are they worth picking up? I was thinking of getting a support Battery to put near my Warwalkers as a bit more fire support.
You are basically getting a vindicator for 75 points. They aren't too tough and you can't buff them with spells because they split up after deployment. They seem like a great buy though if you are going for a ranged build.
I think there could be value in picking up 1 or 2 D-Cannon platforms and going to all lengths to hide them out of site. But then be VERY vocal about where you've placed them and the fact that it is a Distort cannon (in fact call it a D-Cannon). People may still have hang-ups about when Distort weapons were Str D, if it affects or dissuades their decisions to advancing towards it in any way, it may well earn its points back without even shooting.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: If you use the flamers they have an 8" range but you can advance and shoot without penalty so its a 5+ D6" move. The Cannons are 12" so should be in range out of the webway. Wave serpents have always worked for me.
This is probably the most reasonable way to move Wraithguard around. 5 + 1d6 (a flat 6 with Matchless Agility in a pinch). This is going to be referencing any time after they have reached their destinations with whatever delivery system you choose. That should probably be either Webway Strike or a Wave Serpent as previously mentioned. Both weapon kits for them are Assault, so they are free to Advance on any movement and still be able to fire (Wraithcannons at -1, sadly), but you should be able to drive them into a position to do some damage. You always have Quicken, though I wouldn't form strategies around a reliance on that (see: D-Scythe Wraithguard coming out of Webway Strike need Quicken to close that extra inch to fire). If you Webway Strike, I think you pretty much must drop in Wraithcannons to start getting points back out of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been working on my core army list, I figure I'll share it here for people to tear up and laugh at. I've been playing Biel-tan, and my opponent absolutely hates the trait, and we both agree it has been really valuable.
As a base I am running 2 Battalion Detachments:
2 Farseers (1 with Doom/Executioner - 1 with Guide/Fortune)
2 Spiritseers (both with Protect/Jinx)
2 Squads of 5x Dire Avengers (Exarchs with double Catapults)
2 Squads of 5x Rangers
1 Squad of 10x Guardians with a Bright Lance Platform
1 Squad of 20x Guardians with two Shuriken Cannon Platforms
That all comes for just over 800 points. I usually play around from there, but I try to work into a Spearhead Detachment with 2 Fire Prisms and usually a double Shuriken Cannon Warwalker. That gets me to 10 CP, and still have 750 points to go in a 2000 list (and only needing 1 HQ for Detachment requirements). A Wave Serpent usually makes an appearance, too, if for nothing else than to protect the Dire Avengers turn 1 and give them a bit of a movement jump when they disembark.
The Guardians usually Webway Strike alone. I try to control the middle of the map, extending my deployment zone 12-18 inches forward with Wave Serpents, Dire Avengers, Rangers appearing unbidden, Warwalkers, and Guardians if there is a plump target to shred with the Shuriken storm. That creates a really strong buffer for my Fire Prisms, keeping pesky melta and plasma deep strikers away. I've shielded a Wraith Knight much the same way, and it really put a lot of pressure on him to dig all that out... Wraith Knight followed forward once deep strikers were all accounted for and he had some more freedom to pick his targets (used Heavy Wraithcannons and Star Cannons, got a melee on turn 2 and 3 with it, as well).
Deployment, I usually keep the buffing Farseer in a pocket near a Fire Prism, had the Wraithknight here as well. That allows me to have Guide and Fortune on near targets that will be targeted by my opponent. I thought about bringing both Fire Prisms closer together, as I could Natural Leader one, Guide the other, save CP from Linked Fire if I really wanted to. There's tons of possibilities, but Stormwind buffs a lot of my forward units... I can be a bit more picky on what I pass out the valuable buffs to. My Spiritseers both take Protect/Jinx, the spell seems just a bit above the others in terms of what it usually does in game. I can always find a reason to cast either side of the spell, and if 1 Spiritseer gets whacked, I don't lose all my access to those spells. My last HQ is usually another Spiritseer, and I've been trying a lot of stuff, but nothing seems to stand out as "must have" like Protect/Jinx.
Doom has been absolutely ridiculous with the mess of 4 and 6 Strength Shuriken weapons. I don't believe a Doomed target has survived through the first couple of Shuriken volleys, much less surviving the turn.
Surviving first turn is usually a matter of placing Rangers forward as speed bumps to buffer my deployment zone a bit, it doesn't solve Alpha strikes, but lessens them.
Best part of the army is Battle Focus. Being able to run and shoot pretty much the whole army with no penalty makes sure I get my units where they need to be, never an inch or two short on range, or having half the squad out of range, half in. Adding that with the Stormwind trait for rerolling A LOT of 1's allows me to bring a lot of fire to bear against the middle of the field. Also, it untethers me from Autarchs to get those rerolls, saving 70+ points per, and allows my buffs to go to quality shooting units instead of quantity.
My most recent list looked like this (I used flat Biel-tan Craftworld because... fluff but, a mix of craftworlds would probably be best. I'll note what I think the best is per detachment. There's enough flexibility in the list to really customize past the 1250 point range.
Battalion Detachment: Biel-tan
Farseer (Doom, Executioner)
Farseer (Guide, Fortune) (Warlord with Natural Leader, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan)
5 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Dual Catapults
5 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Dual Catapults
20 Guardian Defenders, 2 Shuriken Cannons
5 Howling Banshees, Exarch w/ no upgrades
1 Wave Serpent with Shuriken Cannon and Twin Shuriken Cannons
Battalion Detachment: Biel-tan or Alaitoc (Alaitoc is probably better)
Spearhead Detachment: Ulthwe or Alaitoc as preferred
Spiritseer (Conceal/Reveal)
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
War Walker with 2 Shuriken Cannons
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Wraithknight, 2 Heavy Wraithcanonns and 2 Starcannons.
Sorry for the lengthy post!
Thanks for the list and tactics. This is a very chess-like way of thinking about board maneuver and control, about controlling the center and pushing the opponent back rather than the usual dichotomy of either (1) charge forward full speed or (2) sit as far back as possible and shoot through frangible screens.
You are basically getting a vindicator for 75 points. They aren't too tough and you can't buff them with spells because they split up after deployment. They seem like a great buy though if you are going for a ranged build.
Yeah i think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I realyl want to put them in my force, but i dontk now if they will work well with my up close and personal army WIth shining spears, scorpions, and swooping hawks being very aggressive. I don't see a lot of options early on in the game for the platforms to start taking any shots.
2 Farseers (1 with Doom/Executioner - 1 with Guide/Fortune)
2 Spiritseers (both with Protect/Jinx)
2 Squads of 5x Dire Avengers (Exarchs with double Catapults)
2 Squads of 5x Rangers
1 Squad of 10x Guardians with a Bright Lance Platform
1 Squad of 20x Guardians with two Shuriken Cannon Platforms
I've been playing with a very similar core lately and I've had very solid results. I've been going for Ulthwe and Alatioc in my detachments but I think the Craftworld trait is really a matter of taste in some cases. I can also add that after having used 2 Crimson Hunters I think they'll stay pretty solidly placed in my lists - especially in an alatioc army with -2 to be hit.
You are basically getting a vindicator for 75 points. They aren't too tough and you can't buff them with spells because they split up after deployment. They seem like a great buy though if you are going for a ranged build.
Yeah i think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I realyl want to put them in my force, but i dontk now if they will work well with my up close and personal army WIth shining spears, scorpions, and swooping hawks being very aggressive. I don't see a lot of options early on in the game for the platforms to start taking any shots.
I've played them twice and both first turns I have shot 1st turn at -1 though. Unless I am playing them wrong I believe they can shoot at -1 when they move.
Your D-Cannons really sound like they scared him. Are they worth picking up? I was thinking of getting a support Battery to put near my Warwalkers as a bit more fire support.
You are basically getting a vindicator for 75 points. They aren't too tough and you can't buff them with spells because they split up after deployment. They seem like a great buy though if you are going for a ranged build.
I think there could be value in picking up 1 or 2 D-Cannon platforms and going to all lengths to hide them out of site. But then be VERY vocal about where you've placed them and the fact that it is a Distort cannon (in fact call it a D-Cannon). People may still have hang-ups about when Distort weapons were Str D, if it affects or dissuades their decisions to advancing towards it in any way, it may well earn its points back without even shooting.
It's also worth to remember Vaul's Wrath shares the Guardian Keyword too so you can use Celestial Shield or Discipline of the Black Guardians Stratagem to make the unit more durable or ensure the shoots land when needed.
Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?
One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?
Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.
Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?
I've been running pretty Serpent-heavy lists all throughout 8th, though with Guardians instead of anything fancier. Early on I was typically using 4 Serpents with Guardians and then flyers. It worked pretty well. It'll work even better now. Serpents are extremely durable, Guardians are very efficient if they don't get killed immediately, and the Serpents can tie stuff up to protect the Guardians. You really don't lose much on turn 1, and even less now with Alatoic.
Banshees and Scorpions would probably do okay, but Guardians just seem better. Like, with Banshees you're mostly paying for their movement and Overwatch immunity, but the Serpents are already giving you those things. Meanwhile Scorpions are paying a lot for a little bit of durability, which helps them survive while cowering in cover and helps them tie things up, but again the Serpents make sure that they don't get shot at and the Serpents tie things up.
Probably the Scorpions are preferable to the Banshees, since they hit a lot harder with an Exarch with Claw. They actually do (barely) out-damage Guardians for cost against lots of things if you shoot and charge.
I want to say that maybe one game a guard army did take down 1 serpent but I think he reminded me of spirit stones and It actually made it to turn 2.
I think 1 serpent is the most an army in a 2k game can take out unless they dice are in their favor.
Perhaps if there are a ton of small arms fire, otherwise with the serpent reducing damage it will take 4 or 5 damaging shots of big guns to eliminate a serpent. So for 2 kills they will need up to 10 or more that bypasses all defenses.
As long as your using terrain and flanking moves it is unlikely for 2 to be killed....and I'm sure they want to target the cargo once they finally cracked the transport....or it was kinda a wasted effort...so really the odds are very hard to kill 2 plus the exposed cargo.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?
One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?
Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.
Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?
I don't dislike it, but I think there are much more stellar units than either of those, currently. And your CP would be a hot mess.
I think if the opponent had nothing else worthwhile to put fire into, they could knock a Serpent out in a turn or two, probably 2-3 in the first couple of turns. But it also depends heavily on their list and how some of those damage rolls go. I've had games where Serpents were largely ignored, I've had a few where people tunnel visioned on them and they go down to clinging to life in a turn. I must say that I don't much mind the results either way. It is either tanking a lot of damage, or pushing out a lot of shuriken shots and threatening the shield.
What I have had happened a lot was a Serpent going down to 1-3 wounds after concentrated fire, only to disperse that shield in a final hurrah... and then promptly have it ignored the rest of the game. Even in this state, a Serpent can re-discharge its shield for 1 CP.
I don't really see a need for more than 3, really. 1-3 is usually a good number depending on army composition.
Thanks for the list and tactics. This is a very chess-like way of thinking about board maneuver and control, about controlling the center and pushing the opponent back rather than the usual dichotomy of either (1) charge forward full speed or (2) sit as far back as possible and shoot through frangible screens.
Thanks! Both of us did a lot of chess in the past, and this is like chess for guys who have WAY too much disposable income, right?
Playing either one of those other scenarios tends to lead to getting hammered on an exposed position. The only time rushing or turtle'ing up works against us is when the lists are just so unbalanced that the results were in at list creation. Unfortunately, we don't get to play against hyper-specialized lists, either, because we play very balanced. So things like three knights or Magnus, Mortian, and garbage could really rough us up (due to inexperience, really).
I think Eldar plays a lot to this... where you put those squads, stratagems, and psychic powers is kind of a big deal.
I was just thinking about Scorpions and came across something. Is there any reason that Supreme Disdain and Death from a Thousand Stings wouldn't stack? So that on a successful hit of 6+ you would get two more attacks (one from each rule).
I don't see or know of a reason it wouldn't work. Throw in Enhance and in an optimal setting (targets in cover for another +1) you would get 2 extra attacks on every 4+. Could be mean.
I doubt there is anything competitive here, but it adds some value to Karandras and makes Scorpions a lot more dangerous. 10 Scorpions, Karandras, and spiritseer/warlock in a Wave Serpent would make quite the bomb.
Colgado wrote: I was just thinking about Scorpions and came across something. Is there any reason that Supreme Disdain and Death from a Thousand Stings wouldn't stack? So that on a successful hit of 6+ you would get two more attacks (one from each rule).
I don't see or know of a reason it wouldn't work. Throw in Enhance and in an optimal setting (targets in cover for another +1) you would get 2 extra attacks on every 4+. Could be mean.
I doubt there is anything competitive here, but it adds some value to Karandras and makes Scorpions a lot more dangerous. 10 Scorpions, Karandras, and spiritseer/warlock in a Wave Serpent would make quite the bomb.
Colgado wrote: I was just thinking about Scorpions and came across something. Is there any reason that Supreme Disdain and Death from a Thousand Stings wouldn't stack? So that on a successful hit of 6+ you would get two more attacks (one from each rule).
I don't see or know of a reason it wouldn't work. Throw in Enhance and in an optimal setting (targets in cover for another +1) you would get 2 extra attacks on every 4+. Could be mean.
I doubt there is anything competitive here, but it adds some value to Karandras and makes Scorpions a lot more dangerous. 10 Scorpions, Karandras, and spiritseer/warlock in a Wave Serpent would make quite the bomb.
Or you could just pile them all into wave serpents?
I’m really starting to feel the possiibilities of the 5-6 serpent banshee/scorpion rush. Few deployment drops, and a deployment that presents your opponent with nothing but hard targets (serpents) with maybe some screening rangers. Then after the turn one fly-forward (with vectored engines and lightning-fast reactions if necessary to discourage shooting at the serpent with the wraithblades) deepstriking some flying low-priority flying units like windriders, hawks so they can jump into the assault for unit-trapping schenanigans. You can potentially mulch a shooting army without really letting them shoot at anything except serpents, game over in turn three.
Karandas would be a good support character, but also Asurmen (aka captain expensive) for the invul saves.
Basically turns the Scorpions into MWBD Tesla Immortals. harder to execute though. If you can reliably get Spiritseer + Scorpions into combat from a Waveserpent, sure. Perhaps double Spirit Seer (+1hit, quicken) Scorpions, Waveserpent?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically turns the Scorpions into MWBD Tesla Immortals. harder to execute though. If you can reliably get Spiritseer + Scorpions into combat from a Waveserpent, sure. Perhaps double Spirit Seer (+1hit, quicken) Scorpions, Waveserpent?
Colgado wrote: I was just thinking about Scorpions and came across something. Is there any reason that Supreme Disdain and Death from a Thousand Stings wouldn't stack? So that on a successful hit of 6+ you would get two more attacks (one from each rule).
I don't see or know of a reason it wouldn't work. Throw in Enhance and in an optimal setting (targets in cover for another +1) you would get 2 extra attacks on every 4+. Could be mean.
I doubt there is anything competitive here, but it adds some value to Karandras and makes Scorpions a lot more dangerous. 10 Scorpions, Karandras, and spiritseer/warlock in a Wave Serpent would make quite the bomb.
Or you could just pile them all into wave serpents?
I’m really starting to feel the possiibilities of the 5-6 serpent banshee/scorpion rush. Few deployment drops, and a deployment that presents your opponent with nothing but hard targets (serpents) with maybe some screening rangers. Then after the turn one fly-forward (with vectored engines and lightning-fast reactions if necessary to discourage shooting at the serpent with the wraithblades) deepstriking some flying low-priority flying units like windriders, hawks so they can jump into the assault for unit-trapping schenanigans. You can potentially mulch a shooting army without really letting them shoot at anything except serpents, game over in turn three.
Karandas would be a good support character, but also Asurmen (aka captain expensive) for the invul saves.
Potentially i couldn't be too bad, it depends. if your doing casual play you'd probably do quite well, but most competitive armies have screens, and they'll happily chew on your wave serpent shooting 2 turn turns, and take a turn of charges from your banshees. Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn. So two turns of shooting that, and then all the banshees and scorps shooting things up with thier pistols will maybe??? barrily take out a single 30 man squad of conscripts.
That's not saying i think the idea is terrible just i think you really want stuff on the table to chew up that screen your opponent will employ to stop you. An argument could also be made for dropping the servants for just more model, but serpents are very durable. So terrible that i definitely feel like they are worth thier price for that. Maybe if you also included two squads of 20 man guadians from ulthwe or better yet biel-tan and had them drop to clear the screen for your charging banshees and scorps.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Basically turns the Scorpions into MWBD Tesla Immortals. harder to execute though. If you can reliably get Spiritseer + Scorpions into combat from a Waveserpent, sure. Perhaps double Spirit Seer (+1hit, quicken) Scorpions, Waveserpent?
No it doesn't. Only the Exarch gets Sustained Attack.
Xenomancers wrote: Played my first game with ulthwe last night against emperors children. I got to go first and just played defensive. I had 2 - 20 man guardian drops that I saved until he got close on the second turn and I had 20 dire avengers in 2 serpants. The rest of my army was 2 fire prisms a crimson hunter - eldrad a farseer and 2 warlocks and 2 D cannons.
Fire prisms - crimson hunter and D cannons managed to kill a rhino and a 10 man noise marine and seriously hurt a maulerfiend. Next turn he moved up - focued the D cannons and killed both and he tried to damage the prisms with range but failed. Start of turn 2 I brought out all my infantry and it was pretty much over at that point.
1 unit of gardians (w 2 bright lance) I used to destroy his other noise marine rhino with 10 more noise marines in it with the help of doom and Black gardians stratagem (he popped smoke). The prisims killed the 10 noise marines inside with their linked fire stratagem and the low power fire mode (did 12 wounds). The other 20 man guardian dropped in front of his defiler - plus 20 dire avengers also targeted it. I casted jinx of the defiler so those infantry wiped it out with just guide on the guardians and the hunter went (which had conceal on it) killed a dreadnought.
Basically - I felt like I had all the tools to control the game. it really helped having 2 battalions. The ability to drop 40 guardians on someone on demand is REALLY strong though. Ulthwe do it best I think because they can use black guardians on 1 unit and guide the other. Plus the FNP is amazing.
Thats exactly how I felt after playing nids with Eldar. I have heard others say that Eldar don't have good 'horde' control units which I just don't see. Dire Avengers in Serpents with Dual Shuriken Cannons are amazing light infantry wipers.
Your D-Cannons really sound like they scared him. Are they worth picking up? I was thinking of getting a support Battery to put near my Warwalkers as a bit more fire support.
You are basically getting a vindicator for 75 points. They aren't too tough and you can't buff them with spells because they split up after deployment. They seem like a great buy though if you are going for a ranged build.
OK, and bought. I will give them a try. Due for a game vs Tyrnaids next week, will have to try them out with my standard eldar list and see how it goes.
You're missing Karandras for Death from a Thousand Stings.
Honestly, the bigger question is does Supreme Disdain with Karandras make Scorpions worth it alone? Enhance, Quicken, and cover all turn up the combo to the next level but if you need all of these than it's likely too much investment. Although getting a spiritseer or warlock for enhance shouldn't be too much of a lift.
mmimzie wrote: Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.
How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)
mmimzie wrote: Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.
How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)
As an avid GSC player trapping chaffe is near impossible. It's either they trap you, and no visa verse if you're a good player. You can pile into the chaffe, but they back up and then just shoot you in the face or the things behind the chaffe shoots you in the face.
Most armies actualy don't care about you locking them in combat. Guard have order that let them keep shooting, or enough chaffe to just leave combat with the chaffe and shoot you any way.
So looking at those list. I don't see the banshee/scorp serpent spam working against any of those save for maybe the grey knight/AM list where they lack chaffe, but even then i think the grey knight nemsis dreads might just win that melee fight any way.
The other forces ahve enough chaffe or alt deployments where getting locked into combat isn't that big a problem.
The first list has 3 squads of scripts that you just aren't gonna move. Getting them stuck in combat isn't realyl gonna work well because you chose which models in your units die. From thier the gatling cannons and scions are gonna hot drop and rock the melee force.
the second list Has berserks that can win the melee fight, and a decent enough amount of cultist that they could win in the fight or at as a screen to allow the obliterators to live up to thier name sake.
THe third list as i said is a toss up, but if he uses his 60 infantry men to block off your charge you won't get through that fast enough to stop the hurts, and everyone that got out will get rocked. Though i'm not familiar enough with the grey knight stuff to give you a good opinion i'll admit.
The fourth list ifeel good about how this scorp banshee list would do. I think it might be a little bit of a toss up depending on how the soul burst go, but i think the banshee/scorps would have a pretty nice shot.
The 5th list thier is just no chance for the banshee/scorp list too many brims and no way to deal with them, and good damage out put from magnus and the khorne boys to take the game of the chaos players pace.
I think with the addition of the guadian drop this changes a bit though. With a storm guardian drop or two you could clear away a lot f that chaffe in no time.
take 24 max
Don't take special weapons
Do take Chainswords for all 24 models.
That is 8pts per guardian so 192 point unit
Enhance+ Black Guardian + Quicken are critical
Shiftshroud is a way to get 1 warlock in range.
Skyrunner is another way.
a 2 warlock conclave is another at 36" range w/stratagem
An autarch helps
A Farseer with Doom and Will of Asurman or Fortune will be needed.
A very lot can go wrong so prep for that.
take 24 max
Don't take special weapons
Do take Chainswords for all 24 models.
That is 8pts per guardian so 192 point unit
Enhance+ Black Guardian + Quicken are critical
Shiftshroud is a way to get 1 warlock in range.
Skyrunner is another way.
a 2 warlock conclave is another at 36" range w/stratagem
An autarch helps
A Farseer with Doom and Will of Asurman or Fortune will be needed.
A very lot can go wrong so prep for that.
actually misspoke and said storm guardians. <.< i always think about them because they are cooler, but i prefer the defender drop. Doesn't need support, and if you take them in craftworld biel-tan you can get a free damage boost. The defenders also target chaffe so they make a great module for undoing chaffe heavy armies. They also don't need warlock or far seers to really get thier job done. Makes them very plug and playable into almost any list idea.
Going against an opponent with no chaffe?? having a bright lance in your guardian squad keep them relavent, and allows you just to deploy them back field and take a few pop shots.
take 24 max
Don't take special weapons
Do take Chainswords for all 24 models.
That is 8pts per guardian so 192 point unit
Enhance+ Black Guardian + Quicken are critical
Shiftshroud is a way to get 1 warlock in range.
Skyrunner is another way.
a 2 warlock conclave is another at 36" range w/stratagem
An autarch helps
A Farseer with Doom and Will of Asurman or Fortune will be needed.
A very lot can go wrong so prep for that.
Storm guardians in codex with chain swords cost only 7. Chain sword cost zero in the codex and guardians are 7
mmimzie wrote: Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.
How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)
As an avid GSC player trapping chaffe is near impossible. It's either they trap you, and no visa verse if you're a good player. You can pile into the chaffe, but they back up and then just shoot you in the face or the things behind the chaffe shoots you in the face.
Most armies actualy don't care about you locking them in combat. Guard have order that let them keep shooting, or enough chaffe to just leave combat with the chaffe and shoot you any way.
So looking at those list. I don't see the banshee/scorp serpent spam working against any of those save for maybe the grey knight/AM list where they lack chaffe, but even then i think the grey knight nemsis dreads might just win that melee fight any way.
The other forces ahve enough chaffe or alt deployments where getting locked into combat isn't that big a problem.
The first list has 3 squads of scripts that you just aren't gonna move. Getting them stuck in combat isn't realyl gonna work well because you chose which models in your units die. From thier the gatling cannons and scions are gonna hot drop and rock the melee force.
the second list Has berserks that can win the melee fight, and a decent enough amount of cultist that they could win in the fight or at as a screen to allow the obliterators to live up to thier name sake.
THe third list as i said is a toss up, but if he uses his 60 infantry men to block off your charge you won't get through that fast enough to stop the hurts, and everyone that got out will get rocked. Though i'm not familiar enough with the grey knight stuff to give you a good opinion i'll admit.
The fourth list ifeel good about how this scorp banshee list would do. I think it might be a little bit of a toss up depending on how the soul burst go, but i think the banshee/scorps would have a pretty nice shot.
The 5th list thier is just no chance for the banshee/scorp list too many brims and no way to deal with them, and good damage out put from magnus and the khorne boys to take the game of the chaos players pace.
I think with the addition of the guadian drop this changes a bit though. With a storm guardian drop or two you could clear away a lot f that chaffe in no time.
Thanks for sharing the lists. I’ll have to try out some variations. So far, using all my 6 serpents and all banshee + scorpion models, i still have about 800 points left in 2 battalions. So there are some options. Storm guardians are looking good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I personally haven’t found it difficult to trap units in melee to protect my guys from shooting, especially where there are vehicles around. But I have been playing jump pack heavy marines, and flying makes it easier to grab a model or two during consolidation.
Obviously where your opponent flies or if you happen to draw the Valhallan conscript army, then plan B.
The talk of Wave Serpent heavy lists got my brain going and I threw this list together - mostly because I am in the buying stage and want to make sure I have lots of solid options.
Ok, quick question that I've noticed... what weapons can a Vyper take?
The wargear section says it can replace it's shuriken cannon with a heavy weapon. Fine, easy, done.
Also says you can exchange the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon. Ok, done.
So now I have a shuriken cannon and a heavy weapon... so why can't I then swap that shuriken cannon for a heavy weapon?
There doesn't seem to be any wording saying I can't, and other units in the game allow you to do stuff like this (especially in imperial codices).
Just wanted to see if there was a ruling, as it makes a difference for my write up.
Niiru wrote: Ok, quick question that I've noticed... what weapons can a Vyper take?
The wargear section says it can replace it's shuriken cannon with a heavy weapon. Fine, easy, done.
Also says you can exchange the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon. Ok, done.
So now I have a shuriken cannon and a heavy weapon... so why can't I then swap that shuriken cannon for a heavy weapon?
There doesn't seem to be any wording saying I can't, and other units in the game allow you to do stuff like this (especially in imperial codices). Just wanted to see if there was a ruling, as it makes a difference for my write up.
I think the assumption is that once you swap your Twin Shuricat to a Shuricannon, that's it for swapping it as it says you may swap its "Cannon", not "Cannons" I'm interested to see what everyone else says though.
Also keep in mind that this would also affect the Falcon which also comes default with Cats and a Cannon and can swap that Cats for a Cannon and its Cannon for a Heavy weapon. It would be really cool to have a double Star Cannon Vyper or a double Lance / Pulse laser Falcon.
Niiru wrote: Ok, quick question that I've noticed... what weapons can a Vyper take?
The wargear section says it can replace it's shuriken cannon with a heavy weapon. Fine, easy, done.
Also says you can exchange the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon. Ok, done.
So now I have a shuriken cannon and a heavy weapon... so why can't I then swap that shuriken cannon for a heavy weapon?
There doesn't seem to be any wording saying I can't, and other units in the game allow you to do stuff like this (especially in imperial codices).
Just wanted to see if there was a ruling, as it makes a difference for my write up.
This has come up multiple times with different armies and setups like this. The general consensus is you cant swap a weapon twice, you can make the catapults a cannon or make the other cannon into a dif heavy weapon, but not catapults to cannon to heavy weapon. I know there are rulings that back this up, I just don't remember where they are at the moment.
mmimzie wrote: Then everything behind the screens will light up the exposed soft meats of your scorpions and banshees 6 serpents just break 11 conscript kills a turn.
How will the opponent chew up scorpions and banshees that are within 1” of units that they have trapped?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Except for armies that fly like Tau suit spam or Mech DE)
As an avid GSC player trapping chaffe is near impossible. It's either they trap you, and no visa verse if you're a good player. You can pile into the chaffe, but they back up and then just shoot you in the face or the things behind the chaffe shoots you in the face.
Most armies actualy don't care about you locking them in combat. Guard have order that let them keep shooting, or enough chaffe to just leave combat with the chaffe and shoot you any way.
So looking at those list. I don't see the banshee/scorp serpent spam working against any of those save for maybe the grey knight/AM list where they lack chaffe, but even then i think the grey knight nemsis dreads might just win that melee fight any way.
The other forces ahve enough chaffe or alt deployments where getting locked into combat isn't that big a problem.
The first list has 3 squads of scripts that you just aren't gonna move. Getting them stuck in combat isn't realyl gonna work well because you chose which models in your units die. From thier the gatling cannons and scions are gonna hot drop and rock the melee force.
the second list Has berserks that can win the melee fight, and a decent enough amount of cultist that they could win in the fight or at as a screen to allow the obliterators to live up to thier name sake.
THe third list as i said is a toss up, but if he uses his 60 infantry men to block off your charge you won't get through that fast enough to stop the hurts, and everyone that got out will get rocked. Though i'm not familiar enough with the grey knight stuff to give you a good opinion i'll admit.
The fourth list ifeel good about how this scorp banshee list would do. I think it might be a little bit of a toss up depending on how the soul burst go, but i think the banshee/scorps would have a pretty nice shot.
The 5th list thier is just no chance for the banshee/scorp list too many brims and no way to deal with them, and good damage out put from magnus and the khorne boys to take the game of the chaos players pace.
I think with the addition of the guadian drop this changes a bit though. With a storm guardian drop or two you could clear away a lot f that chaffe in no time.
It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
Xenomancers wrote: It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
I don't think this is easy at all with units that you actually charged. You only consolidate 3". You basically need Fly to have any chance of doing this to something that you didn't already have partially-surrounded -- moving a 1" model all the way around another 1" model already requires a >3" move (your model's center is moving pi inches). But since you have to set this up with your charge and pile in, your opponent will likely be able to remove casualties so as to make it impossible for you to complete the trap with your consolidation. It can be a lot easier if you originally pile into a unit that you didn't charge, though that requires there be a handy unit close by.
Now, with vehicles it's a lot easier. Here casualty removal isn't a problem, because it's a one-model unit.
SM Infantry sometimes can double swap, sometimes can't, depending on finer print in the wording. The RAI seems to support this.
Vypers and similar in the CWE dex have had this question come up every edition. I've still never seen a Vyper modelled with both swapped. Much less played on the table.
Xenomancers wrote: It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
Assuming battle shock doesn't exist. Sure... and with AM I can chose to use LD 9 or 4 and use which everyone gives me the best advantage. You can consolidate after I pull models via battle shock.
But look your free to try, and the come back and tell me how that goes.
Xenomancers wrote: It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
I don't think this is easy at all with units that you actually charged. You only consolidate 3". You basically need Fly to have any chance of doing this to something that you didn't already have partially-surrounded -- moving a 1" model all the way around another 1" model already requires a >3" move (your model's center is moving pi inches). But since you have to set this up with your charge and pile in, your opponent will likely be able to remove casualties so as to make it impossible for you to complete the trap with your consolidation. It can be a lot easier if you originally pile into a unit that you didn't charge, though that requires there be a handy unit close by.
Now, with vehicles it's a lot easier. Here casualty removal isn't a problem, because it's a one-model unit.
Another thing I think is important is the order in which the options are given.
Swapping the Shuicannon for a Heavy weapon is listed first, meaning that if you wish to swap, it happens at a point at which the Vyper only has 1 Shuricannon.
THEN you may swap the Twin cats for another Shuricannon
But that is more of a RAI argument, which seems redundant as we all kinda agree on the RAI
That's cool guys, if everyone is playing the rule as Vypers can only have one heavy weapon, then that is what I will put in the Tactica.
And on that note, the basic summaries for the Tactica are done! Well, except for LoW/Superheavies, but I figured all the other slots were more important to get written up first.
So if anyone wants to read through and start on some feedback/changes/corrections, it's all ready to go. Otherwise, I will now start on adding in the most-used loadouts and any tactics that people come up with
Xenomancers wrote: It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
Assuming battle shock doesn't exist. Sure... and with AM I can chose to use LD 9 or 4 and use which everyone gives me the best advantage. You can consolidate after I pull models via battle shock.
But look your free to try, and the come back and tell me how that goes.
Xenomancers wrote: It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
I don't think this is easy at all with units that you actually charged. You only consolidate 3". You basically need Fly to have any chance of doing this to something that you didn't already have partially-surrounded -- moving a 1" model all the way around another 1" model already requires a >3" move (your model's center is moving pi inches). But since you have to set this up with your charge and pile in, your opponent will likely be able to remove casualties so as to make it impossible for you to complete the trap with your consolidation. It can be a lot easier if you originally pile into a unit that you didn't charge, though that requires there be a handy unit close by.
Now, with vehicles it's a lot easier. Here casualty removal isn't a problem, because it's a one-model unit.
I agree with this completely.
It's a lot easier with bonus to your pile in move. Like siamhan get with their warlord trait. Probably the only craftworld that should take aspect close combat warriors anyways. Also with banshees - which have insane movement - you were probably surrounded at the start of the assault. It's only going to get worse as you lose models. I use to think falling back was automatic and free but it's actually pretty easy to trap a unit if you know what you are doing.
Niiru wrote: That's cool guys, if everyone is playing the rule as Vypers can only have one heavy weapon, then that is what I will put in the Tactica.
And on that note, the basic summaries for the Tactica are done! Well, except for LoW/Superheavies, but I figured all the other slots were more important to get written up first.
So if anyone wants to read through and start on some feedback/changes/corrections, it's all ready to go. Otherwise, I will now start on adding in the most-used loadouts and any tactics that people come up with
Having looked at it thier is abit of a disconnect.
I can tell some pages were written that are more neutral. While others where more fishing for what's better or worse.
For instance functionally dire avengers and swoopnhawks habe the same damage out put/pts against about every target when you factor in thier grenade which has a very generous range of effect. The difference between the two being: do you want speed, mobility, and alternate deployment or do you want obsec and a troop choice.
This is a real distinction as swoop hawks will almost always have range for thier attacks against the target you want. Except for the grenades which might be alittle bit harder to land where you want. Where as dire avengers give you obsec and more cp, but do you need more to or is obsec worth it when its on such a comparatively slow unit.
From thier. I do agree wind riders are bad, but one small boon I would be that make the best forwarding targets when armed woth scatter lasers or sgurxan cannons. Giving them great range and a lot of shot if you take a unit of 9. In these same roles they also gain a lot from guide, and if they constantly have access to guide giving you more mileage than many other units can or would normally get.
Niiru wrote: That's cool guys, if everyone is playing the rule as Vypers can only have one heavy weapon, then that is what I will put in the Tactica.
And on that note, the basic summaries for the Tactica are done! Well, except for LoW/Superheavies, but I figured all the other slots were more important to get written up first.
So if anyone wants to read through and start on some feedback/changes/corrections, it's all ready to go. Otherwise, I will now start on adding in the most-used loadouts and any tactics that people come up with
Having looked at it thier is abit of a disconnect.
I can tell some pages were written that are more neutral. While others where more fishing for what's better or worse.
For instance functionally dire avengers and swoopnhawks habe the same damage out put/pts against about every target when you factor in thier grenade which has a very generous range of effect. The difference between the two being: do you want speed, mobility, and alternate deployment or do you want obsec and a troop choice.
This is a real distinction as swoop hawks will almost always have range for thier attacks against the target you want. Except for the grenades which might be alittle bit harder to land where you want. Where as dire avengers give you obsec and more cp, but do you need more to or is obsec worth it when its on such a comparatively slow unit.
From thier. I do agree wind riders are bad, but one small boon I would be that make the best forwarding targets when armed woth scatter lasers or sgurxan cannons. Giving them great range and a lot of shot if you take a unit of 9. In these same roles they also gain a lot from guide, and if they constantly have access to guide giving you more mileage than many other units can or would normally get.
Anywho keep up the good work.
It's the hazard of having to write up 40 different summaries for units in a vacuum, when there's no damage/pts/durability standards out there. I didn't realise that Avengers and Hawks had the same damage/pts output as each other. It's why I asked a few days ago if people would want a standard damage/durability per points stat for each unit, but it didnt seem to get much of a backing so I haven't looked into doing anything about it yet.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll alter those summaries a little so they're a bit more even handed. All the summaries are basically drafted off the top of my head or using other peoples opinions from forums, so there's going to need to be some updates (especially as there is now the codex).
Xenomancers wrote: It's very easy - with your colsolidate move - you surround 1 modle - thats all you need to do.
Assuming battle shock doesn't exist. Sure... and with AM I can chose to use LD 9 or 4 and use which everyone gives me the best advantage. You can consolidate after I pull models via battle shock.
But look your free to try, and the come back and tell me how that goes.
Goes pretty well in my experience. Actual assaults are pretty messy, not a clean one-to-one unit fight, but (if you set it up right) fights that pull in vechicles, monsters, and characters who are nearby in a crowded parking lot. Anybody who hasn’t anticipated models being pulled by battle shock isn’t playing the game very well. You have to grab multiple models, or characters who don’t die from battleshock.
And you don’t have to go *all* the way around with your move—just enough to make three points of contact with the base. But I agree, it is easier with flying assaulters.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Anybody who hasn’t anticipated models being pulled by battle shock isn’t playing the game very well. You have to grab multiple models, or characters who don’t die from battleshock.
.
This more or less kind of sums up my point.
I don't like strategies where apart of it is out Sherlock holding your opponent. To me it's allitle bit "my if my opponent plays poorly."
I definitly get where you guys are coming where you can do it. It's more the executiong, and thier being many ways to prevent you from having this option. I've had my fair share of games where I snare my opponents and lock units in combat all game, but odds are after doing it to that opponent 2 or 3 times, they'll realize they can just position better and be okay.
Launching off that idea in a tournament one can assume the top opponent won't be so easily pulled in this sitiation. Having played both sides of this melee army that tries to tie you in combat to protect your models from damage. It's not super reliable, and being only T3 with a 3+/4+ save any charge squad has a decent shot of just punching you to death. Even guard can double thier combat phase these days, and some guard are str 4.
As always try it. If it works report back, but I suspect in the ling run this strategy will fall flat.
Just to show you I don't even think the idea is completely ridiculous. I have been building up a jet bike force with lots of shining spears and wind riders that aim to lock opponents in melee turn 1. But as has been admited. Fly lets you do this stray a lot better, and doing it turn one prevents you from being too beat up before you get there.
It's the hazard of having to write up 40 different summaries for units in a vacuum, when there's no damage/pts/durability standards out there. I didn't realise that Avengers and Hawks had the same damage/pts output as each other. It's why I asked a few days ago if people would want a standard damage/durability per points stat for each unit, but it didnt seem to get much of a backing so I haven't looked into doing anything about it yet.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll alter those summaries a little so they're a bit more even handed. All the summaries are basically drafted off the top of my head or using other peoples opinions from forums, so there's going to need to be some updates (especially as there is now the codex).
Well even handedness isn't required unless it's your goal. It just depends on if that what you want the most out of the site or not. I think an even ton for summaries and a more pros/cons to tactics would look really good.
It's the hazard of having to write up 40 different summaries for units in a vacuum, when there's no damage/pts/durability standards out there. I didn't realise that Avengers and Hawks had the same damage/pts output as each other. It's why I asked a few days ago if people would want a standard damage/durability per points stat for each unit, but it didnt seem to get much of a backing so I haven't looked into doing anything about it yet.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll alter those summaries a little so they're a bit more even handed. All the summaries are basically drafted off the top of my head or using other peoples opinions from forums, so there's going to need to be some updates (especially as there is now the codex).
Well even handedness isn't required unless it's your goal. It just depends on if that what you want the most out of the site or not. I think an even ton for summaries and a more pros/cons to tactics would look really good.
I can agree with that. As the summaries gradually get longer from information on here, I'll then start splitting up the general "summary" information from the pros/cons tactic information. At the moment I only have basic summaries, so splitting it up is a bit of a waste.
Edit: Also it was pointed out to me that the "disconnect" you found when reading through the summaries might just be because there were two different Authors - Dawnstrider was kind enough to do a couple of the pages of summaries for me, and I only mildly edited them when I put them onto the site. Some of his text should really be in the tactics sections, but I haven't sorting it all out yet. Like I said, over time it should all end up with the right info in the right places
I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.
2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.
Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.
As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or the Starcannons?
Edit - excuse the "....." Dakka formatting OP and i can't upload pics right now.
Kdash wrote: I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.
2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.
Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.
As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or
I prefer the Brightlances on the CHE. With the reroll of 1 to hit, I find this to be a good platform for my anti tank
Kdash wrote: I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.
2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.
Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.
As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or
I prefer the Brightlances on the CHE. With the reroll of 1 to hit, I find this to be a good platform for my anti tank
Because the CHE will already re-roll 1's due to it's built in rule.
Wait!!! I'm an idiot and have got the CHE info wrong! Give me a few mins to adjust it all!
Kdash wrote: I’d like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea of Brightlance/Starcannon Saim-Hann Vypers vs the Crimson Hunter Exarch, especially when paired with an Autarch.
2 Bright Lance-Shuriken Cannon Vypers and the Autarch Skyrunner with Lance are 93 points more expensive than the Crimson Hunter Exarch with Bright Lances, but each time I look at the figures, the Vypers are significantly better vs GEQ, and then pretty much on par vs everything else in terms of rough average damage output.
Overall, both units have 12 wounds, but the CHE has +1 T and is hard to hit. However, the CHE has “somewhat” limited movement options, cannot hold objectives and is an added risk in terms of “Troops on the Ground” rules.
Now, personally I feel like I’ll almost always be running an Autarch warlord due to some of the synergies he already provides, along with the CP regain and being a “potential” melee threat when needed, but others might not agree -especially as I’ve not seen many included in Dakka lists so far.
As you can see, again the Vypers tend to do significantly better vs GEQ and standard troops, but starts to suffer from T6+ vs the CHE.
So, thoughts around Vypers vs Crimson Hunter Exarchs? And which would you consider running? The Bright Lances or the Starcannons?
Anti infantry weapons do better against infantry is really no surprize. Crimson hunter is our best tank hunter. It goes after tanks. It's also good vs other flyers.
I'm getting different numbers than you for almost everything. For example, the BL Vypers expect to kill 4.15 GEQs (2*(2/3*7/6*5/6 + 3*2/3*7/6*(2/3*2/3 + 1/6))) while the CHE expects to kill 2.59 (4*2/3*7/6*5/6). I think you're in general underestimating the CHE by about 25%, probably because you're treating it as hitting on a 4+ instead of a 3+.
I would take a regular CH every time for bright lances. It can benefit from an Autarch on turn 1 and 3 easily (and turn 2 with some work), it can take a useful Attribute, and it degrades more slowly since the Vypers lose half of their shooting after losing half of their wounds. And it gets wound re-rolls vs Fly.
Ok, pretty significant change resulting in my original thoughts being wrong. 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch is pretty much always better than 2 Vypers with an Autarch. And this strangely makes me feel a little sad :/
The question now remains though - Bright Lances or Starcannons?
em_en_oh_pee wrote: The talk of Wave Serpent heavy lists got my brain going and I threw this list together - mostly because I am in the buying stage and want to make sure I have lots of solid options...
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I mostly play mech Eldar and have written many similar lists. A couple of simple things you can do will make a big difference:
1) Move all the Wave Serpents into the Alaitoc detachment. It may seem daft to take Serpents as dedicated transports for Fire Prisms but it's totally legal and means that if you go second the -1 to hit will make it a lot harder for your opponent to pop the serpents in your DZ. It will also mean that there is nothing for your opponent to shoot at that isn't a -1 to hit tank on the first turn.
2) Swap your Spirit stones for Vectored engines. You have Shuricannons on the Serpents so they can advance and still shoot. Combined with the Alaitoc trait they will be -2 to hit when advancing.
Edit: Actually, can someone please check if Serpents can carry infantry that are not the same <craftworld> as themselves. I'll feel silly if not, my latest list had 5 Biel-tan avengers sharing an Alaitoc Wave Serpent with 5 Ulthwe Fire Dragons haha what fluff?
Edit 2: It would also mess up em_en_oh_pees list as it looks like some of the psykers would need to ride in Serpents of different craftworlds. This may have caught others out too.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm getting different numbers than you for almost everything. For example, the BL Vypers expect to kill 4.15 GEQs (2*(2/3*7/6*5/6 + 3*2/3*7/6*(2/3*2/3 + 1/6))) while the CHE expects to kill 2.59 (4*2/3*7/6*5/6). I think you're in general underestimating the CHE by about 25%, probably because you're treating it as hitting on a 4+ instead of a 3+.
I would take a regular CH every time for bright lances. It can benefit from an Autarch on turn 1 and 3 easily (and turn 2 with some work), it can take a useful Attribute, and it degrades more slowly since the Vypers lose half of their shooting after losing half of their wounds. And it gets wound re-rolls vs Fly.
Yeah had the wrong BS number for the Exarch. Now fixed though. Using a base of 0.7777 chance to hit with them both, due to the re-rolls of 1. Our figures seem to differ on the Shuriken cannon section. I think this is simply down to calculating the -ap on a 6 to wound.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: The talk of Wave Serpent heavy lists got my brain going and I threw this list together - mostly because I am in the buying stage and want to make sure I have lots of solid options...
.
I mostly play mech Eldar and have written many similar lists. A couple of simple things you can do will make a big difference:
1) Move all the Wave Serpents into the Alaitoc detachment. It may seem daft to take Serpents as dedicated transports for Fire Prisms but it's totally legal and means that if you go second the -1 to hit will make it a lot harder for your opponent to pop the serpents in your DZ. It will also mean that there is nothing for your opponent to shoot at that isn't a -1 to hit tank on the first turn.
2) Swap your Spirit stones for Vectored engines. You have Shuricannons on the Serpents so they can advance and still shoot. Combined with the Alaitoc trait they will be -2 to hit when advancing.
Edit: Actually, can someone please check if Serpents can carry infantry that are not the same <craftworld> as themselves. I'll feel silly if not, my latest list had 5 Biel-tan avengers sharing an Alaitoc Wave Serpent with 5 Ulthwe Fire Dragons haha what fluff?
Edit 2: It would also mess up em_en_oh_pees list as it looks like some of the psykers would need to ride in Serpents of different craftworlds. This may have caught others out too.
Wave Serpents specify <Craftworld>, so you can't load up on just Alaitoc if you are transporting units from other Craftworlds. That is why mine are spread out a bit.
With two or three Prisms, one of them could do a 16" move to make an enemy character the closest model. It would only be able to fire once and with a -1 to hit. BUT if you then use the linked fire stratagem the other Prisms can join in and fire twice with rerolls!
If it's legal it could be amusing.
@ above: Damn. It looks like your Alaitoc psyker and one of your Uthwe Psykers have to footslog it then.
What's the thoughts on War Walkers and Wraithlords? I absolutely love the Wraithlord model, but it seems in a weird spot because it's fairly slow. War Walkers I keep wanting to use as mobile anti-tank platforms with missile launchers or bright lances in a pack of 3, pop up in the backfield along with webway striking units to provider a diversion and shoot things. However a unit of 3 with bright lances is a hefty 270 points.
I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?
One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?
Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.
Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?
Do rules like mandiblasters and sustained attacks get buffed by scorpion's cover rule or psychic powers that buff hit rolls? Or, is it just "rolls of 6's?"
@ above: Damn. It looks like your Alaitoc psyker and one of your Uthwe Psykers have to footslog it then.
Just the one Ulthwe Warlock is left behind to support the D-Cannon. The Alaitoc Spiritseer deploys via Shiftshroud, so while he is technically on foot, he will be up front with the WG unit when they dismount.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?
One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?
Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.
Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?
Do rules like mandiblasters and sustained attacks get buffed by scorpion's cover rule or psychic powers that buff hit rolls? Or, is it just "rolls of 6's?"
They're all specified in the codex as rolls of "6+" luckily. So the buffs to help.
@ above: Damn. It looks like your Alaitoc psyker and one of your Uthwe Psykers have to footslog it then.
Just the one Ulthwe Warlock is left behind to support the D-Cannon. The Alaitoc Spiritseer deploys via Shiftshroud, so while he is technically on foot, he will be up front with the WG unit when they dismount.
The shiftshroud is a good call, I'm not sure what else to do with the HQ from my obligatory Alaitoc Spearhead detachment. It would mean missing out on the very handy Biel-tan Spirit stone relic. A bike is another option if I can find the points.
Edit: +1 to hits don't help with the mandiblasters. That would be very good.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?
One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?
Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.
Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?
Do rules like mandiblasters and sustained attacks get buffed by scorpion's cover rule or psychic powers that buff hit rolls? Or, is it just "rolls of 6's?"
They're all specified in the codex as rolls of "6+" luckily. So the buffs to help.
Nice, so Scorpion units (can be) a reliable source of mortal wounds with the right buffs. Now, my only hesitation is their number of attacks.
Edit: +1 to hits don't help with the mandiblasters. That would be very good.
Or not? Either way, I think they will require some experimentation.
I intend to try 10 Scorpions and Karandra in a serpent with a spiritseer with enhance and the ambush of blades warlord trait plus the supreme disdain strat..
5+ to hits (4+ vs enemies in cover) generate 2 additional attacks and are AP-1.
Mandiblasters aren't to hit rolls sadly.
Am I right in thinking that every model in the enemy unit needs to be in cover to get the +1 to hit?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Am I right in thinking that every model in the enemy unit needs to be in cover to get the +1 to hit?
Cover is a binary state, either a unit has cover or it does not. So if any infantry models in a unit are outside of cover the unit does not have cover.
Wayniac wrote: What's the thoughts on War Walkers and Wraithlords? I absolutely love the Wraithlord model, but it seems in a weird spot because it's fairly slow. War Walkers I keep wanting to use as mobile anti-tank platforms with missile launchers or bright lances in a pack of 3, pop up in the backfield along with webway striking units to provider a diversion and shoot things. However a unit of 3 with bright lances is a hefty 270 points.
I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.
I love them both. I have used them both a lot since the codex dropped.
Warwalkers with Beil-tan leader trait means you have a tough, mobile moving weapon platform that hits on 4's but rerolls all misses. I use eldar missile launchers on mine and work great. You can also take a second squad and cast guide on it if you want to double up on the strategy.
Also 2 Wraithlords with Avatar of Kaine and a farseer as a forward moving combat squad with dual shuriken cannons and flamers on the wraithlords. You get to move and advance and still fire, you get to reroll 1's, you get auto hits if something tries to charge you, and you get exploding 6's on the shuriken cannons. On top of that can't target the avatar unless it's closest, add a farseer into the mix for doom and fortune. Maybe on a skyrunner for extra toughness and wound. Give the farseer the spirit stone of anath'lan to garuntee casts. You get a powerful forward moving combat squad that no one sane would want to charge or get into it with. With the Warwalkers moving up behind for fire Support you have a great launching point.
Just picked up an (unpainted) Eldar army on Ebay that has, HQ wise, 7 Warlocks and nothing else.
Am I being thick and missing something? Is there any reason why I wouldn't take Spiritseers over Warlocks? I'm thinking I'll pay an extra 10 points to be able to indulge in a bit o' smite spam any day....
Thought I'd ask the question before mess about trying to give them all witch staffs (somehow). Assuming that converting Warlorcks to Spiritseers won't get opponents salty?
I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.
Banshee's are solid by virtue of their extreme mobility allowing them to lock things down pretty quickly. Although you've got it right about the S3, without some support from outside sources, they aren't going to do enough damage to be worth throwing at units with good CC capabilities.
Scorpions, on the other hand, really don't have a lot going for themselves. In a best case scenario, assuming +2 to hit rolls (Enhance, and target in cover), each Scorpion is still only putting out .42 (.56 with pistol) wounds on a MEQ, and 1.11 (1.46 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. Altogether, damage like that on a 10-man squad is going to cost you 151 points (assuming Scorpion's Claw on the Exarch).
If you have Karandas with them in the same situation (Enhance, target in cover), you're looking at .55 (.69 with pistol) wounds on MEQ and 1.48 (1.83 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. But now your unit costs 301 points for the privilege (and honestly, his claw is probably going to be wasted against the same target his Scorpions are going after).
For comparison, a 10-man unit of Genestealers with rending claws for 120 points puts out .89 wounds on MEQ per model and 1.56 wounds on GEQ per model with no outside buffs or support.
Now, I know that inter-codex comparisons are not always the most relevant method of evaluation (especially when Genestealers still have to deal with a method of delivery, although they have now and will be getting plenty of great options for that role), but there's just something seriously wrong with the Scorpions' damage output when they require so much effort to not even come close to units of less cost.
pessa wrote: Just picked up an (unpainted) Eldar army on Ebay that has, HQ wise, 7 Warlocks and nothing else.
Am I being thick and missing something? Is there any reason why I wouldn't take Spiritseers over Warlocks? I'm thinking I'll pay an extra 10 points to be able to indulge in a bit o' smite spam any day....
Thought I'd ask the question before mess about trying to give them all witch staffs (somehow). Assuming that converting Warlorcks to Spiritseers won't get opponents salty?
If you convert them to holding staffs, you could also easily run them as warlocks with singing spears should you ever want to. A staff and a spear are pretty close.
And warlocks are cheaper, and have one or two stratagems that you can use on them. Other than that, Spiritseers are better.
If you're going to run 7 warlocks, a Conclave might be the better option, if only because you'll get constant D6 damage smites and you're much less likely to blow up and damage other nearby units. Also the stratagem that doubles the range of your spells is more efficient on a conclave. Might be worthwhile, but I've not done any tests with it so YMMV
The 7 Warlock Conclave seems like a large investment, points wise though.
I guess ultimately a mix of Warlocks and Spiritseers might be the go. Use the warlocks for buffing spells and the Spiritseers for Smite... given both can only cast once/round in any event.
pessa wrote: Just picked up an (unpainted) Eldar army on Ebay that has, HQ wise, 7 Warlocks and nothing else.
Am I being thick and missing something? Is there any reason why I wouldn't take Spiritseers over Warlocks? I'm thinking I'll pay an extra 10 points to be able to indulge in a bit o' smite spam any day....
Thought I'd ask the question before mess about trying to give them all witch staffs (somehow). Assuming that converting Warlorcks to Spiritseers won't get opponents salty?
During 3rd and 4th edition, there were a number of units that used a lot of warlocks that were awesome, and spiritseers either didn't exist, or were expensive, vulnerable, and really only benefited wraithguard/wraithlords. A lot of us with older armies wound up with tons of warlocks (I have seven with witchblades, four with spears, and five on bikes).
So if you buy an older army, it will tend to have lots of warlocks, but no spiritseers.
The nice thing is that is doesn't take much to make Warlocks into Spiritseers (add a staff, maybe greenstuff over the eyes) or Farseers (just add extra to the helm).
I would recommend against using a Conclave though as they lose the protection of being Characters.
The Warlocks only real strength is being the cheapest HQ to unlock detachments. Sure a few Spiritseers would be better, but if you need 5+ HQs, Warlocks start to become appealing.
This is probably why they aren't 25ppm as that would make them too spammable.
Galef wrote: The nice thing is that is doesn't take much to make Warlocks into Spiritseers (add a staff, maybe greenstuff over the eyes) or Farseers (just add extra to the helm).
I would recommend against using a Conclave though as they lose the protection of being Characters.
The Warlocks only real strength is being the cheapest HQ to unlock detachments. Sure a few Spiritseers would be better, but if you need 5+ HQs, Warlocks start to become appealing.
This is probably why they aren't 25ppm as that would make them too spammable.
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Yeah the conclave losing the protection of being Characters I reckon is the last straw for me.
I think with the models I have, I might be running 2 battalion detachments. So it maybe end up as 4 HQ's split between 1 Farseer, 2 Spiritseers and a Warlock - with the option to add a few more if I'm likin it
I ruminated on trying Asshatmen for all the 4+ invulnerable saves to Dire Avengers, but my God he is expensive ...
DAs don't tend to need the 4++. The volume of fire that ignores their armor isn't that high. Also, they're typically in 5-man squads, and the 2W Exarch has a 4++. So only 4 of your 6 wounds are really affected.
I love Asurmen, but his aura tends to help the other Aspects more. I see a lot more good-AP weapons pointed at my Fire Dragons and Scorpions and Banshees than my Dire Avengers.
I don't know, I tend to Ike 10 avengers, but I am starting to come around to the merits of 2x5. Unfortunately for me I build mine as a unit of 10 with exarch with glaive/shield because it looked like the coolest option :(
as far as wraithlords go they really should have 1 roll. Anti deep strike cc unit. Go bare bones and just give the glaive and let him stomp around for 113 points. Keep him out of shooting.
The War Walkers with Fortune can usually kill 1 of the enemies big units or make it so useless that the enemy will always decide the WWs need to die. Normally it takes everything the enemy has to shoot to eliminate them on their first turn. expensive but you got rid of one of their big threats and took a whole turn of fire.....by now your wave serpents and warp portal should be all in place to open some hurt on the opponent and likely your dark reapers wont come under fire as the WWs took the heat instead of them.
I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.
Banshee's are solid by virtue of their extreme mobility allowing them to lock things down pretty quickly. Although you've got it right about the S3, without some support from outside sources, they aren't going to do enough damage to be worth throwing at units with good CC capabilities.
Scorpions, on the other hand, really don't have a lot going for themselves. In a best case scenario, assuming +2 to hit rolls (Enhance, and target in cover), each Scorpion is still only putting out .42 (.56 with pistol) wounds on a MEQ, and 1.11 (1.46 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. Altogether, damage like that on a 10-man squad is going to cost you 151 points (assuming Scorpion's Claw on the Exarch).
If you have Karandas with them in the same situation (Enhance, target in cover), you're looking at .55 (.69 with pistol) wounds on MEQ and 1.48 (1.83 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. But now your unit costs 301 points for the privilege (and honestly, his claw is probably going to be wasted against the same target his Scorpions are going after).
For comparison, a 10-man unit of Genestealers with rending claws for 120 points puts out .89 wounds on MEQ per model and 1.56 wounds on GEQ per model with no outside buffs or support.
Now, I know that inter-codex comparisons are not always the most relevant method of evaluation (especially when Genestealers still have to deal with a method of delivery, although they have now and will be getting plenty of great options for that role), but there's just something seriously wrong with the Scorpions' damage output when they require so much effort to not even come close to units of less cost.
Why is it that you don't compare banshee to any thing but then walk down abit on scorpion dps when compared to natural genestealers who need outside sources to get them in combat. And are in a different armmy.
Scorps out melee banshee every time for the poin5s even wi5h execution on the banshee ( in my book not even that good of an upgrade) mind you this is before even getting +1 if the enemy uniy is in cover. Mainly the difference is the mandablasters and the claw exarch being so good.
Mobility wise I'd give the edge alittle yo banshee, but it depends on the craftworld you use. In sam-hann you get a pretty good chance to auto charge out of deepstrike. While banshee do really well charging from wave serpents, but then the wave serpents reduces the coat effectiveness of the banshee and could be abit of a tax.
Realistic I think the scorps are little better than banshee in most situations, as if your charging from a wave serpent odds are you'll beable to make the same first charge with either unit from that serpent.
In my opinion which might be different from reality o think scorpions are a billion times better. They can deep strike on objective or be used in most situations you'd use a banshee squad and the scorps would come out better.
The main reason I like Scorps is because they can pop up, so if you combine it with a Webway Striking unit and/or something popping out of a wave serpent, you have a multi-pronged attack.
Not true. They were already available in the 4th ed codex, though back then it was just an upgrade for a warlock. They got turned into their own thing with the 6th ed codex though, yeah.
Both Banshees and Scorpions have pretty poor damage output without support but good rules for getting them into combat.
Fortunately Eldar can put out so many buffs you really just need any warm body in the right place to put them on. There are buffs for making units hit, generating additional attacks, making units wound and lowering saves. So use the aspects rules to get them into place and the buffs to do the damage.
As a back up, the ability for these units to easily get where there need to be has some value by itself. Scorpions can DS onto objectives and Banshees speed and ability to ignore overwatch means they can shut down shooting units.
I don't think doing this really makes either unit highly competitive but they can at least do work.
I used both once so far and thought they showed potential:
The Scorpions dropped in next to some grot heavy weapons that were camping an objective in cover. I used the Court of the young king strat to give them a 7" charge and hit on 2's rerolling 1's. Had I not rolled snake eyes for the charge they would have wiped out a heavy support choice and been sat on an objective in my opponents backfield with a 2+ save. Sadly they just got shot off the board.
The banshees jumped out of a Wave Serpent, got buffed up, and dashed ~30" to charge a Trygon and put 17 wounds on it.
Just noticed it but did someone considered or tested Vaul's Wrath with Vibro canon as a Nid counter?
1d3 S7 -1 will surely cause 1 wound on most normal nids and then negate them advancing, thus shutting down some turn 1 charges ( at least for the 1st screening units)
On later turns the extra Ap and fixed wounds can make the weapons shine blasting bigger creatures out of the table.
BlaxicanX wrote: What buffs are allowing Banshees putting 17 wounds on a trygon in one turn.
This doesn't sound impossible, but so statistically unlikely that's it's basically meaningless.
Empower will give them a +1 to wound, and Doom will let you re-roll wounds. You can also then enhance and/or Jinx to lower saves and a further +1 to hit
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Perversor wrote: Just noticed it but did someone considered or tested Vaul's Wrath with Vibro canon as a Nid counter?
1d3 S7 -1 will surely cause 1 wound on most normal nids and then negate them advancing, thus shutting down some turn 1 charges ( at least for the 1st screening units)
On later turns the extra Ap and fixed wounds can make the weapons shine blasting bigger creatures out of the table.
Any toughts or experience with those?
I've been looking at the vibro cannon as a potential Dark Reaper replacement. Unless i've got it wrong (need to re-visit the math) but 2 vibro cannons will out perform a unit of 5 Reapers, for 15 points less. There are, of course other things to consider though.
Maths doesn’t seem right.
1 Str 7 shot at ap -1 d3 wounds and 1 Str 7 shot at ap-2, +1 to wound and d3+1 wound doesn’t look anywhere close to 5 Str 8 ap-2 3 damage shots that always hit on 3s.
Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.
Wyldcarde wrote: Maths doesn’t seem right.
1 Str 7 shot at ap -1 d3 wounds and 1 Str 7 shot at ap-2, +1 to wound and d3+1 wound doesn’t look anywhere close to 5 Str 8 ap-2 3 damage shots that always hit on 3s.
Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.
The Vibro Cannons now have D3 shots i believe, so i was averaging 4 shots vs the 5.
Oh sorry. Battlescribe was showing old stats.
Ok so d3 Str 7 ap-1 d2 shots and d3 str7 ap-2 d3 shots. Yeah that definitely stacks up more favourably. Str 7 to Str 8 is a big deal tho. Against their ideal targets reapers are 3s to hit 3s to wound while vibrios are 3s to hit 4s to wound. With a similar amount of shots, 1 less ap on half the shots and one less damage on half the shots. So advantage reapers.
Against lighter targets reapers just switch to heavy 2 and get twice as many shots as the vibros with a similar roll required as Str 7 and Str 5 are both wounding t4 on 3s.
Then the reapers get 3+ to hit and rerolled 1s for the exarch. Plus tempest launcher for an extra 5 points. Vibrocannons get shuriken catapault shots within 12” but if the enemy are that close the support weapon is in trouble.
So edge still sits with the reapers. A third vibrocannon makes things interesting tho. Still have the edge survivability tho.
Close enough for consideration tho.
Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.
Vibrocannons actually degrade really poorly relative to Dark Reapers because of their special rule, and are not more durable in the face of long-range anti-tank shooting. When half of the Reapers die, the unit shoots half as well -- they just scale with unit size. Against T7 3+, when one of three vibro cannons dies, the unit shoots half as well. When one of two cannons dies, the unit shoots 36% as well. The last of three vibro cannons shoots 18% as well as all three did originally. It's true that the vibro cannons keep more of their firepower if the unit takes some wounds but not enough to actually kill a single cannon, but this is not very likely to happen since they're still pretty fragile.
Also note that a BS3+ lascannon expects to kill 10 points of Dark Reaper in cover vs 18 points of vibro cannon. With stuff like heavy bolters this is flipped, but it's not clear to me that one is more durable than the other in general since it's not like your artillery will be in range of most small arms. You can also protect the Reapers with Serpents on turn 1.
Reapers also come with an Exarch, who is fantastic. Simply bringing the Exarch along as an extra wound makes a 3-man Reaper squad almost as durable (per point) in the face of assault cannon fire as a vibro cannon battery. The Exarch also makes sure that the Reapers degrade more slowly than the cannons even when the units only take a small amount of fire.
If your opponent is shooting lascannons at a vibrocannon that is a win right there.
The reason I meant the same points cost of vibros is more survivable is more along the lines of:
A 5 man reaper squad takes 5 wounds. The unit is dead and no longer shooting. The vibrocannons take 5 wounds. 1 vibrocannon is dead but the other can still shoot. So whereas the vibrocannons are less effective at least they are still actually alive.
And with the prevalance of deep striking etc it isn’t difficult for an anti infantry unit to get into range of a reaper unit early on. Wave serpent helps turn 1 but once they get out and shoot they are fair game. And will be priority one to kill.
Where the vibrocannons do have the advantage is survivability in that t5 and 5w is a lot harder to kill then t3. Plus you have to wipe the vibriocannon completely before it loses any offence. And then you have the second one to get through. Whereas each dead reaper is one less shot coming out.
Vibrocannons actually degrade really poorly relative to Dark Reapers because of their special rule, and are not more durable in the face of long-range anti-tank shooting. When half of the Reapers die, the unit shoots half as well -- they just scale with unit size. Against T7 3+, when one of three vibro cannons dies, the unit shoots half as well. When one of two cannons dies, the unit shoots 36% as well. The last of three vibro cannons shoots 18% as well as all three did originally. It's true that the vibro cannons keep more of their firepower if the unit takes some wounds but not enough to actually kill a single cannon, but this is not very likely to happen since they're still pretty fragile.
Also note that a BS3+ lascannon expects to kill 10 points of Dark Reaper in cover vs 18 points of vibro cannon. With stuff like heavy bolters this is flipped, but it's not clear to me that one is more durable than the other in general since it's not like your artillery will be in range of most small arms. You can also protect the Reapers with Serpents on turn 1.
Reapers also come with an Exarch, who is fantastic. Simply bringing the Exarch along as an extra wound makes a 3-man Reaper squad almost as durable (per point) in the face of assault cannon fire as a vibro cannon battery. The Exarch also makes sure that the Reapers degrade more slowly than the cannons even when the units only take a small amount of fire.
Another point you need to take into consideration is that sometimes you're not too bothered about doing the damage due to the new vibro rule halving the movement of the target unit.
I'd also argue that, while a Lascanoon will expect to do more points per shot worth of damage, when it does wound, it will kill 1 Reaper, while it only has a 33% chance of killing the Vibro cannon. -IF- the cannon survives, the drop in damage the Reapers will take vs the cannon starts to become more apparent. Also, alpha strike units, like plasma scions will also reduce the damage out put of the Reapers quicker than the cannons, as they are separate units.
Wyldcarde wrote: Oh sorry. Battlescribe was showing old stats.
Ok so d3 Str 7 ap-1 d2 shots and d3 str7 ap-2 d3 shots. Yeah that definitely stacks up more favourably. Str 7 to Str 8 is a big deal tho. Against their ideal targets reapers are 3s to hit 3s to wound while vibrios are 3s to hit 4s to wound. With a similar amount of shots, 1 less ap on half the shots and one less damage on half the shots. So advantage reapers.
Against lighter targets reapers just switch to heavy 2 and get twice as many shots as the vibros with a similar roll required as Str 7 and Str 5 are both wounding t4 on 3s.
Then the reapers get 3+ to hit and rerolled 1s for the exarch. Plus tempest launcher for an extra 5 points. Vibrocannons get shuriken catapault shots within 12” but if the enemy are that close the support weapon is in trouble.
So edge still sits with the reapers. A third vibrocannon makes things interesting tho. Still have the edge survivability tho.
Close enough for consideration tho.
Sorry but you guys are focusing too much on mathammer, and i feel some of it it's based on the wrong assumption.
The vibro rule allow further weapons to improve it's Ap and *wound rolls* not damage of the weapon.
It's mean a 2nd weapon will just wound T8 on 4+ and 3rd should be there (reachin 180 points) will do at 3+ , so it's Dmg per shoot it's a flat 2.
But the thing that interest me mostly it's the No advance rule after suffer damage, we know nids get advantages of extra movement rules, Advance +charge, extra movement and Advance and i think a pair or Trio of Vibro cannons can allow us just that 1 extra turn of time by slowing the 1st lines of advancing nids.
P.S: also worth to remember Vaul's do have Guardian Keyword, so Celestial shield and Discipline of the Black guardians stratagems work for them.
If your opponent is shooting lascannons at a vibrocannon that is a win right there.
The reason I meant the same points cost of vibros is more survivable is more along the lines of:
A 5 man reaper squad takes 5 wounds. The unit is dead and no longer shooting. The vibrocannons take 5 wounds. 1 vibrocannon is dead but the other can still shoot. So whereas the vibrocannons are less effective at least they are still actually alive.
And with the prevalance of deep striking etc it isn’t difficult for an anti infantry unit to get into range of a reaper unit early on. Wave serpent helps turn 1 but once they get out and shoot they are fair game. And will be priority one to kill.
That being said I’d still take the reapers.
This doesn't really match my experience, and doesn't make any sense at all re: "If your opponent is shooting lascannons at a vibrocannon that is a win right there."
People shoot lascannons at Reapers all the time. As I said, a BS3+ lascannon expects to kill 10 points of Reaper in cover. This is a slightly better return than shooting BS3+ lascannons at Shining Spears (7.9 points per shot) or cheap Serpents (9.8 pps), and is only a little worse than shooting them at Hemlocks (13.5 pps). If both are Alatoic or the lascannons are BS4+ then it's even closer. Reapers will often be one of the best targets for lascannons in an Eldar list.
It's just silly to look at wounds alone. Reapers have fewer wounds for the points, but these wounds are split up among more models, which is good against multi-damage shooting, and they'll get a significantly better save since they have a 3+ base and are infantry in cover. Your comparison is only relevant for mortal wounds, which are generally very hard to place at range.
You shouldn't be letting people deep strike within 12" of your Reapers. Regardless, the vibro cannons are slightly more vulnerable to plasma guns and significantly more vulnerable to melta guns than are Reapers. I haven't seen much deep striking of anti-infantry shooting, but note anyway that batteries aren't significantly more durable in the face of bolter fire than small Reaper squads.
Vibro cannons are more vulnerable to lascannons than almost anything else Eldar can take. A lascannon kills more points of vibro cannon than points of shuriken cannon Vyper even. Unless you just think that support weapons are horribly overpriced such that the real right answer is to ignore them, shooting them with lascannons is a fantastic decision.
Another point you need to take into consideration is that sometimes you're not too bothered about doing the damage due to the new vibro rule halving the movement of the target unit.
I'd also argue that, while a Lascanoon will expect to do more points per shot worth of damage, when it does wound, it will kill 1 Reaper, while it only has a 33% chance of killing the Vibro cannon. -IF- the cannon survives, the drop in damage the Reapers will take vs the cannon starts to become more apparent. Also, alpha strike units, like plasma scions will also reduce the damage out put of the Reapers quicker than the cannons, as they are separate units.
To be clear, I wasn't saying anything about the shooting of either unit. I was just pointing out that Reapers are as or more durable in most realistic scenarios.
It just seems very strange to me to talk like it's that big of an advantage for support weapons that they can take a couple wounds without losing a model. Armies don't just have two lascannons. Typical armies I play as and against are going to be in a position to fire a series of lascannon-type guns with lighter follow-up if necessary. You're also making the mistake of ignoring the Reaper's save. A lascannon hit has a 56% chance of killing a Reaper, and a 22% chance of killing a vibro cannon. And another 44% of the time it's going to do some damage to the cannon which makes it easier to kill later on.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make about plasma scions. I think you're saying that they're more likely to overkill the support batteries -- you want to devote just enough firepower to kill the battery but not enough to overkill it, and if you fall short then the battery is at full strength still. But people have to make pretty similar decisions with Reapers, which after all come in 4-wound squads. The Exarch's tempest launcher is a big deal, and you really want to make sure he dies. And armies will generally have other guns that they can direct at the squad to finish it off. When I shoot, I choose the units that are basically forced to fire at a particular target first, and then I choose targets for my longer-ranged units based on the results of that shooting. You don't just drop a plasma squad next to a unit and assume it's going to do its average damage or whatever.
But the thing that interest me mostly it's the No advance rule after suffer damage, we know nids get advantages of extra movement rules, Advance +charge, extra movement and Advance and i think a pair or Trio of Vibro cannons can allow us just that 1 extra turn of time by slowing the 1st lines of advancing nids.
I'm going to put my "Vibrocannon" into your "Genestealer". You won't be moving very fast afterwards.
Also note that you're only about 50% likely to do damage to Genestealers with a single vibro cannon, and you only stop them from advancing if you kill one.
Dionysodorus wrote: Also note that you're only about 50% likely to do damage to Genestealers with a single vibro cannon, and you only stop them from advancing if you kill one.
Just to be clear: My post was a big fat pile of innuendo, not any kind of tactical advice.
DCannon4Life wrote: I'm just thrilled that VibroCannons are in the conversation at all!
Seems odd given your username.
I'm a huge fan of Distortion Cannons, it's true, but when I first started playing all I had were metal VibroCannons...that I proxied as Distortion Cannons because the VCs were so bad.
I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.
Wyldcarde wrote: I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.
I mean, I specifically addressed 2 of these 4 things. Crimson Hunters are a lot like Hemlocks in terms of what they're vulnerable to. Fire Prisms are more vulnerable than Dark Reapers to lascannons, yes -- they're almost as fragile as vibro cannons. You're just not actually looking at how much these cost vs how much damage a lascannon actually expects to do to them. Your position just isn't coherent. Like, if you really think that it's great for your opponent to shoot a support battery with a lascannon instead of a Fire Prism, it must be because you value the Prism's offensive output much more relative to its durability. But it's slightly more durable than the battery. And actually lascannons are close to a worst-case scenario for Prisms. So really you just think that Fire Prisms are much better buys than vibro cannons, and you think your list would be a lot better if you just took your two or three vibro cannons and bought another Prism instead.
Wyldcarde wrote: I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.
I mean, I specifically addressed 2 of these 4 things. Crimson Hunters are a lot like Hemlocks in terms of what they're vulnerable to. Fire Prisms are more vulnerable than Dark Reapers to lascannons, yes -- they're almost as fragile as vibro cannons. You're just not actually looking at how much these cost vs how much damage a lascannon actually expects to do to them. Your position just isn't coherent. Like, if you really think that it's great for your opponent to shoot a support battery with a lascannon instead of a Fire Prism, it must be because you value the Prism's offensive output much more relative to its durability. But it's slightly more durable than the battery. And actually lascannons are close to a worst-case scenario for Prisms. So really you just think that Fire Prisms are much better buys than vibro cannons, and you think your list would be a lot better if you just took your two or three vibro cannons and bought another Prism instead.
Just for reference - you need just over 6 lascannon hits to kill a Fire Prism, and 7 to kill 5 Dark Reapers. Not much different, but the Reapers also degrade faster. Cover affects both in a similar way, but Reapers are easier to squeeze into cover, and can benefit from more psyker buffs like Protect etc.
Worth noting that a Fire Prism is hurt a lot more by an opportune deviation than Reapers are. One really good Lascannon hit is always going to kill the same amount of Reapers as one really bad one, but not so for a Prism.
Wyldcarde wrote: I don’t know what else you got running in your list but with wave serpents, hemlocks, fire prisms and crimson hunters flying around, if my opponent wants to shoot his anti tank weapons at a dark reaper unit, be my guest. Ditto at a vibrocannon.
I mean, I specifically addressed 2 of these 4 things. Crimson Hunters are a lot like Hemlocks in terms of what they're vulnerable to. Fire Prisms are more vulnerable than Dark Reapers to lascannons, yes -- they're almost as fragile as vibro cannons. You're just not actually looking at how much these cost vs how much damage a lascannon actually expects to do to them. Your position just isn't coherent. Like, if you really think that it's great for your opponent to shoot a support battery with a lascannon instead of a Fire Prism, it must be because you value the Prism's offensive output much more relative to its durability. But it's slightly more durable than the battery. And actually lascannons are close to a worst-case scenario for Prisms. So really you just think that Fire Prisms are much better buys than vibro cannons, and you think your list would be a lot better if you just took your two or three vibro cannons and bought another Prism instead.
Firstly, I’m not running vibrocannons. I don’t think they are good enough. But someone raised the comparison and looking st the numbers it is closer than I originally gave it credit for.
Secondly, your stance on lascannons shooting at reapers is all well and good in an army with infinite lascannons to shoot. But they don’t. Lascannons might be good at killing dark reapers and dark reapers might be expensive models making it an attractive model from a points killed per shot, but realistically your enemy has limited options to deal with the aforementioned threats I mentioned. So tactically from an opportunity perspective wasting those shots on something that can just as easily be killed by bolter Fire is absolutely a win for the eldar player, where the high strength and multiple wounds is pretty much wasted. And eventually your opponent will run out of good options to deal with those big tank threats.
I thibk when you get down to it you're all abit right on this vribro cannon/fire prism vs reaper debate
The real answer is more what fits best in your list.
All of these options can do thier job well. The vribro cannon isn't so good at killing T8 tanks but it's possible againdt T7 and T6 vehicles. The firm prism is great and has access to stratagem that make them better than everyone else, and the dark repeats are solid, and have a lot of the infantry flexibilities.
The all also are pretty vunerable. Las cannons at a repeat squad is a good idea if your army is all mechanized and you need to wodsle down the repeats or get beat up.
The real consideration I think is target reducrion. If your whole army is mechanized all of your army becomes more resilient against Las cannons as thier stops being enough Las cannons to punch a good hole in your list. Similar if your army is all infantry than all the small arms fire starts to become abit stretched and the Las cannons struggle to find targets.
On that note the mechanized list has an advantage as Las cannons do very well against reapers. However, that's because i don't honestly think reapers are the best anti tank option if you are looking to take this advantage.
Shining spears really out class repears in damage. Not even making combat the 3 man squad will run circles around the reapers in damage out put against everything, but the spears also have high speed and a devastating melee phase that warlocks can agument. From thier they aren't as vulnerable to Las cannons as thier is a chance that a Las cannon shot even if you fail invuln save might not kill you're models.
That said reapers do have range and this can be the difference from getting attacks on a target or not. Honestly, I'm not much of a reaper fan. Almost certainly because my phone always autp correct it to repeats lol. I think the repears are more like the AML where you really bring them to give the exarch a tempest missle launchers and the casual damage from the other two helps with anti armor.
If I really really wanted to add a strong anti tank module to my force i' d take take either a few units of shining spears, a big unit of shining spears (if you plan to bring warlocks support), or 2-3 fire prisms so you can use the stratagem.
EDIT for new topic:
Scat bike and or shuriken cannon bikes might actually have a place. With forewarn they work really well putting out more fire power than most other units and having a massive range. This can do a lot to counter deep strike units like surprise party genestealers in the new book, and plasma vets. Letting you effectively destroy either of these units or force them to stay out of your 36" range of fire on a face moving unit that will most likely be mid field turn 1. ON top of this the unit benefits greatly from guide as it's a lot of points being buffed at once, providing a pretty fair anti horde force once buffed, and not needing CP like guardian drop squads.
So I am looking at shining spears and I really like the idea of a first turn assault with their 16" move and quicken. But how big of a unit of shining spears should someone take and what are their preferred targets?
Also speaking of proper targets for units, what are warpspiders used for now? They used to be harassers that could move across the board like crazy but now I feel their mobility has been stunted and their gun doesn't seem different from the huge multitude of shuriken shots we have.
Honestly, with their ability to deepstrike, high mobility, solid saves, ability to use the Fly rule, and static -1 to be hit by shooting, I feel they'd do a better job at dropping in and tying up enemy units in CC than Scorpions would.
lambsandlions wrote:So I am looking at shining spears and I really like the idea of a first turn assault with their 16" move and quicken. But how big of a unit of shining spears should someone take and what are their preferred targets?
Spear can target anything really well. They pair as onpar to better against all enemy units when compared to really anything in the book (may or may not require actualy making melee to do really well). So basically throw them at anything you want dead, and you'll be excited.
Unit size is based on your army. If you wanna go big i'd say take 9, and try to hit two units. Though i'd only go 9 if you plan to also support them with warlock and maybe farseer support. Enhance +1 to hit and supreme disdain is great for killing GEQ/MEQ/TEQ level models. For tanks/monster Empower for +1 to wound works really well as it end up being something like a 50% increase in damage. If you want to throw the squad at a knight Empower/Enhance/supreme disdain (and maaaaaaybe doom) will see the knight dead in one round of combat on average with out even shooting the lances at the guy (you can guarantee the knight dies by throwing the lances at the thing and casting doom he'll die about every time, and autarch sitting around bufffing will also help push those odds). They can do the same against everything in the game to be honest. MAgnus/morty/Girlyman all are shaking in thier boots at the site of a buffed up squad, and with quicken you can gamble on buffing the squad outside of deny range, and then shoot the squad into the thick of things with quicken. Definitely think these are kind of a death starish unit.
Low support or no warlock support i'd just take min squads. They are still good, but the buffs are as amazing unless you get that dramatic force multiplication on tons of models.
Do note if you're worried about them taking heat turn 1 you always have the option to webway them in and quicken them with they drop. Quicken will still let them make charges normal units in that situation couldn't (over the heads of screens and scout screens).
Fafnir wrote:Honestly, with their ability to deepstrike, high mobility, solid saves, ability to use the Fly rule, and static -1 to be hit by shooting, I feel they do a better job at dropping in and tying up enemy units in CC than Scorpions do.
You know i don't disagree with you at all here. They are tough enough to deep strike attempt a long bomb charge, and failing that milk flicker jump and potential cover to tank through the enemy turn and go for the charge after they get thier move in.
And I prefer pure Craftworld lists, too... especially being Biel-tan.
). That re-roll charge can be pretty nice bringing your charge chance down to 47.8% 
