Korlandril wrote: Why do you have guardians without weapon platforms that's baaaad
Probably points restrictions by the looks of it. Sure he could probably drop that 4th units of Guardians to add platforms to the other 3, but that reduces his model count quite a bit.
Yeah, avatar isn't the best but can be used to some extent. I use mine with 2 Wraithlords to use as a main frontal force, then use banshees and court of the young king to move those banshees up super fast. Doesn't always work, but the "wait, an Avatar?" Effect can not be denied. People who don't know what it can do and remember it from previous editions spend a lot of time trying to kill it lol.
I would seriously consider the Avatar to be the worst unit in the codex. Even the Wraithknight feels like it'd get more value for its points (and unlike the Avatar, the Wraithknight's only problem is just its points. The Avatar is bad on a fundamental level and needs some serious utility buffs).
Liking something and it being bad are not mutually exclusive. I started my Eldar army because of the Avatar. Doesn't mean it was a prudent list building decision.
Korlandril wrote: Why do you have guardians without weapon platforms that's baaaad
Probably points restrictions by the looks of it. Sure he could probably drop that 4th units of Guardians to add platforms to the other 3, but that reduces his model count quite a bit.
Platforms are the last thing i add to a list, when i need to fill points. At 8points a pop guardians are too expensive to play ablative wounds to a heavy weapon and unlike imperials we are restricted to 12" base guns. I want my guardians up in their face, and hvy weapons get to shoot at 4+ when moving or not at all when advancig, while the shuriken cannon is not worth the points vs. more guardians, assuming we're going within 12" anyway. YMMV but i get guardians for the catapult ( ideally 20 out of the webway )
Korlandril wrote: Why do you have guardians without weapon platforms that's baaaad
Probably points restrictions by the looks of it. Sure he could probably drop that 4th units of Guardians to add platforms to the other 3, but that reduces his model count quite a bit.
Platforms are the last thing i add to a list, when i need to fill points. At 8points a pop guardians are too expensive to play ablative wounds to a heavy weapon and unlike imperials we are restricted to 12" base guns. I want my guardians up in their face, and hvy weapons get to shoot at 4+ when moving or not at all when advancig, while the shuriken cannon is not worth the points vs. more guardians, assuming we're going within 12" anyway. YMMV but i get guardians for the catapult ( ideally 20 out of the webway )
You don't use guardians as a ablative wounds for platform. You use platform with SC to take wounds for the guardians. Platform has 3+ save, 2 wounds and cost 15 points. You use them to improve survivability of the squad a little bit.
admironheart wrote: Tried out a list with Wild Riders and Fieldcraft. I did not have enough CPs but the Saim-Hann is a nice nice detachment for vypers.
The Nova Lance Autarch took out over 400 points of ork characters.
Read the rest, but HOOOLLLLDDD THE PHONE. Would you mind elaborating on this one?
Sarigar wrote: Going to a 1500 point event today. Trying to see how the Avatar will fare post codex release.
Finished the event and took 4th (out of 16) in Battle Points and won best painted. It is based off battle points with win/loss as tie breaker.
Game 1 vs Ultramarine with Roboute Guilliman. I actually never faced that model before and he was a beast and I under estimated him. He killed so much and shrugged off an Avatar charge and killed the Avatar. I tabled him on turn 5 but we used War zone Atlanta missions and as such, I actually lost the game 20-21, haha!
Game 2 vs Ulthwe. 4 Squads of Reapers with Maugan Ra supported by 50 Guardians. I had to deal with the Reapers fast and I killed three units on turn 1 with Hemlocks, but this spread me out way too far and massed shooting, Smite and Executioner peeled a flier away per turn. Guardian fire doesn't seem like much until you face off against 36 shots on a Doomed Hemlock. I lost this game badly. 21-5.
Game 3 vs Imperial. Lots of Scions deep striking, Imperial characters and 2 Marine flyers. I bubble wrapped, my opponent got too close and killed various Guardians. Avatar kept things in line and then the game was over. My opponent conceded turn 3. 33-0.
I didn't have weapon platforms painted yet, so they stayed at home. But, I will run Cannon platforms to be sure. Storm Guardians are cool just for the 2 Flamers (game 3 they excelled). At 1500 points, I had too much expensive stuff. The Eldar army I played against was much better designed and his first game showed Reapers/Maugan Ra were very efficient (It is like getting multiple free Guide on Reapers).
With massed Guardians, I am on the fence with the Avatar. If I have Alaitoc trait, Puritanical Leader is available, but with diminished range. Iyanden would help as well, and I have 20 more Guardians currently being painted. I lost him in games 1 and 2, but I did try to take down a Primarch. He destroyed an Avatar, a Stormhawk and kept Guardians Morale in check in all three games.
1500 points was also interesting as I finished all games within time where I have had some games at 2000 points Not finish on time. But, list building is a bit more tricky. I would drop to 2 fliers and run two Battalion Detachments with Reaper support, which was a massive hole in my list (I play with only what I have painted).
545 or so points for 4x3 Reapers and Maugan Ra? Wow. Super efficient.
Hemlock Airwing Detachment is just brutal. I only lost any fliers against another Eldar army and in that game, I lost all three.
Fun games and I will keep tweaking to make this a 2000 point list as I have a 2 day tourney next month using War Zone Atlanta missions. They do play a lot different than book missions which does factor into list design.
Korlandril wrote: Why do you have guardians without weapon platforms that's baaaad
Probably points restrictions by the looks of it. Sure he could probably drop that 4th units of Guardians to add platforms to the other 3, but that reduces his model count quite a bit.
Platforms are the last thing i add to a list, when i need to fill points. At 8points a pop guardians are too expensive to play ablative wounds to a heavy weapon and unlike imperials we are restricted to 12" base guns. I want my guardians up in their face, and hvy weapons get to shoot at 4+ when moving or not at all when advancig, while the shuriken cannon is not worth the points vs. more guardians, assuming we're going within 12" anyway. YMMV but i get guardians for the catapult ( ideally 20 out of the webway )
You don't use guardians as a ablative wounds for platform. You use platform with SC to take wounds for the guardians. Platform has 3+ save, 2 wounds and cost 15 points. You use them to improve survivability of the squad a little bit.
Correct, and things like Protect/Fortune/Ulthwe trait adds to the resiliency of the platforms.
Korlandril wrote: Why do you have guardians without weapon platforms that's baaaad
Probably points restrictions by the looks of it. Sure he could probably drop that 4th units of Guardians to add platforms to the other 3, but that reduces his model count quite a bit.
Platforms are the last thing i add to a list, when i need to fill points. At 8points a pop guardians are too expensive to play ablative wounds to a heavy weapon and unlike imperials we are restricted to 12" base guns. I want my guardians up in their face, and hvy weapons get to shoot at 4+ when moving or not at all when advancig, while the shuriken cannon is not worth the points vs. more guardians, assuming we're going within 12" anyway. YMMV but i get guardians for the catapult ( ideally 20 out of the webway )
You don't use guardians as a ablative wounds for platform. You use platform with SC to take wounds for the guardians. Platform has 3+ save, 2 wounds and cost 15 points. You use them to improve survivability of the squad a little bit.
Exactly this, cheaper than two guardians with better save. In cover and or Protect for 2+ save.
You can be clever with this assigning wounds to either guardians or the platforms depending on what's shooting, damage 2+ on to guardians for example.
I didn't have weapon platforms painted yet, so they stayed at home. But, I will run Cannon platforms to be sure. Storm Guardians are cool just for the 2 Flamers (game 3 they excelled). At 1500 points, I had too much expensive stuff. The Eldar army I played against was much better designed and his first game showed Reapers/Maugan Ra were very efficient (It is like getting multiple free Guide on Reapers).
Maugan Ra is reroll 1's to hit only, saying it is like multiple free guides seems like your opponent was rerolling all hits, is this true?
Either way you can achieve the same with an Autarch for cheaper just diminished firepower if you went for just a Reaper Launcher loadout
Can anyone explain the use of Aeldari blades over chainswords on Storm Guardians? They are now the same cost in the codex but the chainswords appear more effective. Is there a particular enemy where the Aeldari blades are better? Or is it just to prevent a bad round of hit rolls from ruining an assault?
Korlandril wrote: Why do you have guardians without weapon platforms that's baaaad
Probably points restrictions by the looks of it. Sure he could probably drop that 4th units of Guardians to add platforms to the other 3, but that reduces his model count quite a bit.
Platforms are the last thing i add to a list, when i need to fill points. At 8points a pop guardians are too expensive to play ablative wounds to a heavy weapon and unlike imperials we are restricted to 12" base guns. I want my guardians up in their face, and hvy weapons get to shoot at 4+ when moving or not at all when advancig, while the shuriken cannon is not worth the points vs. more guardians, assuming we're going within 12" anyway. YMMV but i get guardians for the catapult ( ideally 20 out of the webway )
You don't use guardians as a ablative wounds for platform. You use platform with SC to take wounds for the guardians. Platform has 3+ save, 2 wounds and cost 15 points. You use them to improve survivability of the squad a little bit.
Exactly this, cheaper than two guardians with better save. In cover and or Protect for 2+ save.
You can be clever with this assigning wounds to either guardians or the platforms depending on what's shooting, damage 2+ on to guardians for example.
I didn't have weapon platforms painted yet, so they stayed at home. But, I will run Cannon platforms to be sure. Storm Guardians are cool just for the 2 Flamers (game 3 they excelled). At 1500 points, I had too much expensive stuff. The Eldar army I played against was much better designed and his first game showed Reapers/Maugan Ra were very efficient (It is like getting multiple free Guide on Reapers).
Maugan Ra is reroll 1's to hit only, saying it is like multiple free guides seems like your opponent was rerolling all hits, is this true?
Either way you can achieve the same with an Autarch for cheaper just diminished firepower if you went for just a Reaper Launcher loadout
Pretty sure I may have misspoke a bit, after thinking a bit on it. Maugan Ra hit on 2+ with a reroll. Reapers were pretty much eliminated in my game, so it may have been reroll of 1 only. My opponent also had an Autarch and could cast Guide fro Eldrad, so the entire army ended up with some type of reroll mechanic.
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craftworld_uk wrote: Can anyone explain the use of Aeldari blades over chainswords on Storm Guardians? They are now the same cost in the codex but the chainswords appear more effective. Is there a particular enemy where the Aeldari blades are better? Or is it just to prevent a bad round of hit rolls from ruining an assault?
I think chainswords are a better option. In my particular case, it's a matter of what I have modeled on models and how many chainswords I have available. I ended up with a lot more Aeldari Blades than Chainswords over time. I've found (so far), I'm using Storm Guardians to get access to the 2 Flamers per squad; they get shot up pretty quick.
A single ws3+ attack with a reroll to hit gives 0.88 hits per storm guardian, two ws3+ attacks gives 1.32 hits per storm guardian. Always take the chainswords, they're 50% more effective.
Sarigar wrote: Pretty sure I may have misspoke a bit, after thinking a bit on it. Maugan Ra hit on 2+ with a reroll. Reapers were pretty much eliminated in my game, so it may have been reroll of 1 only. My opponent also had an Autarch and could cast Guide fro Eldrad, so the entire army ended up with some type of reroll mechanic.
Just checking, have seen it before where something hasn't been played properly. But sounds like an interesting list to play against. What strats did your opponent use? Were guardians just for screening or did he try any webway bombs?
Also interested to hear what strats you used, did you use the one to resurrect the Avatar at all?
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Incognito15 wrote: Going to get back to 40k and I'm starting an Eldar army. Had 3 questions.
1) What units are absolutely terrible and will never see the light of day? Essentially what are Eldar's 8th Edition Centurion Devs.
2) How do you keep your webway portal guardians buffed? I.e what supports them to cast the powers? Farseer on bike?
3) Can an all wraith army work. Not wraithknight won't buy that but wraithguard and wraithlords.
4) Should I buy the Ynnari three characters? Or can I run Craftworld and be just as competitive?
Thanks!
1) I don't think there is something so terrible it will never see the light of day, certainly less competitive choices but nothing so bad I would argue
2) Bike warlocks and farseers are obviously good for their added movement but both are costly when warlocks are good for being cheap HQs, though you would want a Spiritseer over a foot warlock because they are so much better for 10pts extra
3) In what sense would you want it to work? It can, but it would be without many command points to play with as you can't make use of battalions
4) You don't need to buy Ynnari the characters, Craftworlds are fine in their own
admironheart wrote: Tried out a list with Wild Riders and Fieldcraft. I did not have enough CPs but the Saim-Hann is a nice nice detachment for vypers.
The Nova Lance Autarch took out over 400 points of ork characters.
Read the rest, but HOOOLLLLDDD THE PHONE. Would you mind elaborating on this one?
Never Played orks....he had 2 burner tank units from Forgeworld and 2 big walkers from forgeworld. The spears went after the first walker and th Nova Lance autarch went after a burner. He did like 4 wounds to the burner....no big impact....the spears meanwhile took out one of his forgeworld big walkers.
He charges his big CC boss into the Autarch Skyrunner and does like 2 wounds to him....The skyrunner kills the big boss in hth with a slew of 6's for 4 wounds each on the Nova Lance.
Next the Autarch flys over and kills 2 warp boyz in short range hth and charges the other 2 and they both die.
He is fed up with this and charges a CC equipped Mek boy into the Autarch who makes all his saves and finishes him off ....next turn he kills some other ork character(maybe mekboy with grot)
He then gets shot to death by the 2nd forgeworld walker.....but he terrorized all his characters.
1) What units are absolutely terrible and will never see the light of day? Essentially what are Eldar's 8th Edition Centurion Devs.
Storm Guardians, Wrauthknights and the Avatar all seem pretty poor this edition. Possibly not unusable but you will struggle to make them pay for their points.
2) How do you keep your webway portal guardians buffed? I.e what supports them to cast the powers? Farseer on bike?
Bikeseer is one option, the Alaitoc Relic that allows you to Deep Strike a character works well too. Autarchs can take Hawk Wings which give them the ability to Deep Strike too. Plenty of options available.
3) Can an all wraith army work. Not wraithknight won't buy that but wraithguard and wraithlords.
Wraithguard and Hemlocks are extremely good in 8th but I think a pure Wraith army might struggle. I find the Eldar Stratagems are really strong and you will usually want 3 Troops units for a Battalion just to supply some CPs. Take 3 5-man squads of Rangers in an Alaitoc detachment if you want to keep your non-Wraith units to a minimum but you will struggle without some Troop investment. Wraithlords are OK now they are T8. I like dual Shuricannon and Glaive and keep them Advancing into the opponent's face. They are just about cheap enough and durable enough to work as a distraction carnifex while the Wraithguard scoot up the table in their Wave Serpents. Wraithknight is badly overcosted in 8th though and probably not worth the points.
4) Should I buy the Ynnari three characters? Or can I run Craftworld and be just as competitive?
Craftworlds are very competitive and playing Ynnari will actually stop you using Craftworld Traits. Having said that, Ynnari have different tricks up their sleeves. I don't really think they are better, just different.
Having said that, they are lovely models and I am really enjoying taking the time to paint mine up as centerpieces, especially the Yncarne. By getting 3 characters, you get the opportunity to run a somewhat different flavour of Eldar and that can make a fun change. Do you need them to be competitive? No! Will they add some interesting variety to you army? I think so.
Anyone tried to come up with math for Enhance and Empower compared to just Smiting the enemy unit? When do I want to use these, unless it's obvious (like 10 Wraithblades)? How about Drain and Enervate, what do I use them on, and what kind of eldar things won't die after getting charged even with -1 to hit, concidering we're within '18 of enemy unit already.
It seems like by design we have 2 ranged runes, 2 melee and 2 utility. From them, 1 ranged has as many applications as Doom (Jinx) and seems too good not to take - not to mention it carries with it a powerful buff as well. Reveal is not bad, but already situational. Extra movement phase has many applications, but Embolden/Horrify looks like Mind War/Hemlock thing only.
Jinx stands out from those just like Doom stands out from whole Fate tree. You'd think Enhance is so situational that it should work just like Jinx & Doom, yet it doesn't.
This makes me concider a 2 warlock conclave to merge rarely used powers with better ones. Say I will pay 15 more points than a Spiritseer. It's same wounds, 2 extra attacks and 1 extra shot, although SS hits on 2+ re-rolling 1's, of course. Let's say I just want to Quicken 1 unit of Shining Spears, and then I really don't need this power that much. So a 2 model council could take Conceal/Reveal & Quicken/Restrain, and use Reveal later. At the same time I get access to 2 Stratagems - '36 inch one and +1 to tests (for Eldrad it could mean +2 for tests).
Baby Smite sucks, of course, but I am concidering the option. Another point to SS is that SS can take either Seer of the Shifting Vector or Stone of Anath'lan.
Sarigar wrote: Pretty sure I may have misspoke a bit, after thinking a bit on it. Maugan Ra hit on 2+ with a reroll. Reapers were pretty much eliminated in my game, so it may have been reroll of 1 only. My opponent also had an Autarch and could cast Guide fro Eldrad, so the entire army ended up with some type of reroll mechanic.
Just checking, have seen it before where something hasn't been played properly. But sounds like an interesting list to play against. What strats did your opponent use? Were guardians just for screening or did he try any webway bombs?
Also interested to hear what strats you used, did you use the one to resurrect the Avatar at all?
Roughly, his list was the following (3 Detachments which was the max for this event) I think it was a Battalion, Supreme Command, and Vanguard (Heavy Support choices)
Avatar
Eldrad
Maugan Ra
2 x 1 Warlock
1 x 1 Autarch
1 x 20 Guardians, 2 Shuriken Cannon
3 x 10 Guardians, Shuriken Cannon (each squad)
4 x 3 Dark Reapers, 2 Reaper Launchers, 1 Tempest Launcher (each squad)
My opponent ran 50 Guardians and fairly aggressive. He had 30 bodies spread about to ensure reserve units had to drop in front of the Guardians and not by his Dark Reapers. Plus, he kept Eldrad within 6" of a Dark Reaper unit for other units coming from reserves IOT utilize Forewarning Stratagem. In our game, he used a 20 strong squad to drop onto the Relic turn 1 via Webway Strike Strategem, then cast Quicken for better positioning, obliterated one of my Guardian squads, then used Fire and Fade Stratagem to get better distance and into a ruin. While I was able to cripple his Dark Reapers with Hemlocks, it put my Hemlocks square into range of his Guardian horde. Smite, Executioner, Doom, Guide, Jinx all got cast and massed Shuriken Catapults/Cannons destroyed one, and severaly damaged a second one after a single turn of fire. I definitely did not expect that, so it was a great learning lesson.
I did finally see why it is useful to take a Warlock over a Spirit Seer. My opponent would use the Seer Council stratagem to help cast Quicken from a Warlock, which was very beneficial. Also, my oponent had Eldrad, so casting a power with a +1, then helped him increase his odds to get a good Smite roll (11+) since he then had a +2 to his dice rolls after the first successfully cast power. He ended up with psychic tests of 11+ two times with Smite in my game alone. I'll most likely run a single Warlock for this reason alone in future games.
My only shining moment in the game was baiting him to charge his Avatar into my Avatar. I saved 3 CP to save mine so I could kill his Avatar off to net me Slay the Warlord.
I think my list really just came down to my opponents not really being able to deal with 3 Hemlocks. I'd like to say my cunning tactics surprised my opponents, but this simply was not the case. My first game against Ultramarines, I just killed off the threats to my Hemlocks. In turns 3-5, my Hemlocks picked off targets with no retaliation. My third game, by using Guardians to bubble wrap and protect my fliers from Scions with Melta/Plasma deep strikes, the game was pretty much over by the end of turn 1; he shot up some Guardians with Plasma, but I destroyed both of his fliers, his Warlord, and crippled multiple infantry units. He had about 10 light infantry models left by turn 3 while I lost about 20 Guardians (not even a complete unit was destroyed).
A significant piece my list lacked was being able to really utilize the Forewarning Stratagem. Every game I played in my opponents dropped in units. I really needed a decent Dark Reaper unit to soften up any deep strikers. That will be a given in any army I run in the future. Even if I don't get first turn, Forewarning will still allow me to get at least a round of shooting with them. The Avatar gives me a counter assault, which Shining Spears are better at. I'm likely going to replace the Avatar with 9 Shining Spears once they are painted; that's kinda sad that the points are nearly equal.
I have a 5 game, 2 day event in January which I'm painting and trying to get more test games in. This weekend's single day event used the same missions (Warzone Atlanta) and allowed me to get a feel for the missions and running more Guardians and three Hemlocks. I definitely saw where I lacked army synergy and really am beginning to think one needs to build their army around the Stratagems.
Shadenuat wrote: Anyone tried to come up with math for Enhance and Empower compared to just Smiting the enemy unit? When do I want to use these, unless it's obvious (like 10 Wraithblades)? How about Drain and Enervate, what do I use them on, and what kind of eldar things won't die after getting charged even with -1 to hit, concidering we're within '18 of enemy unit already.
Enervate is pretty good for Wraithlords. Block off the charge of a melee unit like Genestealers (not Kraken, obviously) or Boyz, and then use Enervate to make them -1 to wound, turning their 6s into 5s and making it impossible for them to hurt you. It's pretty niche, but pretty impressive when it does its job. Just generally useful for supporting the durability of wraith units.
Shadenuat wrote: Anyone tried to come up with math for Enhance and Empower compared to just Smiting the enemy unit? When do I want to use these, unless it's obvious (like 10 Wraithblades)? How about Drain and Enervate, what do I use them on, and what kind of eldar things won't die after getting charged even with -1 to hit, concidering we're within '18 of enemy unit already.
It seems like by design we have 2 ranged runes, 2 melee and 2 utility. From them, 1 ranged has as many applications as Doom (Jinx) and seems too good not to take - not to mention it carries with it a powerful buff as well. Reveal is not bad, but already situational. Extra movement phase has many applications, but Embolden/Horrify looks like Mind War/Hemlock thing only.
Jinx stands out from those just like Doom stands out from whole Fate tree. You'd think Enhance is so situational that it should work just like Jinx & Doom, yet it doesn't.
This makes me concider a 2 warlock conclave to merge rarely used powers with better ones. Say I will pay 15 more points than a Spiritseer. It's same wounds, 2 extra attacks and 1 extra shot, although SS hits on 2+ re-rolling 1's, of course. Let's say I just want to Quicken 1 unit of Shining Spears, and then I really don't need this power that much. So a 2 model council could take Conceal/Reveal & Quicken/Restrain, and use Reveal later. At the same time I get access to 2 Stratagems - '36 inch one and +1 to tests (for Eldrad it could mean +2 for tests).
Baby Smite sucks, of course, but I am concidering the option. Another point to SS is that SS can take either Seer of the Shifting Vector or Stone of Anath'lan.
neat but the council isnt a character and is thus excedingly vulnerable. as your plans hinge on turn 2 the vulnerability kills the idea to me.
mmimzie wrote: ... So a 2 model council could take Conceal/Reveal & Quicken/Restrain, and use Reveal later. At the same time I get access to 2 Stratagems - '36 inch one and +1 to tests (for Eldrad it could mean +2 for tests).
Baby Smite sucks, of course, but I am concidering the option. Another point to SS is that SS can take either Seer of the Shifting Vector or Stone of Anath'lan.
neat but the council isnt a character and is thus excedingly vulnerable. as your plans hinge on turn 2 the vulnerability kills the idea to me.
Yeah, a Conclave has to start the game in a Wave serpent to stand a chance. Although I find this is true for all my psykers- in 8th, if a unit starts on the board, it can die before you get a turn. A two man conclave can get in a Serpent with another 10 man unit. Eldar Psykers can usually move ~14" out of a Serpent before casting, which, combined with the decent range on their powers, means you can buff/debuff whatever you need to. I have not yet felt the need to pay for a bike on anyone.
However, I think you need a 4 man Conclave to be able to cast 2 powers.
To cast, yes, but to actually have - Conclave always knows 2 powers even if there are just 2 warlocks.
They're just 2 small infantry models, probably can be hidden somewhere. They don't even need LOS to the enemy. I want meh '36 Jinx out of Deny range.
But I hear you, not being characters hurts. ...I hope Conclave would get some sort of re-design... in a few years. Eh.
I end up with 3 WS in every list I make, usually with Bright lances. I think they're best main battle tanks in the Codex. Unless you count Crimson Hunter a tank, that is.
2) How do you keep your webway portal guardians buffed? I.e what supports them to cast the powers? Farseer on bike?
My personal strategy is to use a lance biketarch + celestial shield. Guardians get the rerolls and are reasonably durable whilst the autarch gets a screen and fire protection. There's quite a bit of synergy there and you're not burning a whole host of points nor CP.
Shadenuat wrote: To cast, yes, but to actually have - Conclave always knows 2 powers even if there are just 2 warlocks.
They're just 2 small infantry models, probably can be hidden somewhere. They don't even need LOS to the enemy. I want meh '36 Jinx out of Deny range.
But I hear you, not being characters hurts. ...I hope Conclave would get some sort of re-design... in a few years. Eh.
I end up with 3 WS in every list I make, usually with Bright lances. I think they're best main battle tanks in the Codex. Unless you count Crimson Hunter a tank, that is.
How did I miss that! I thought they only knew 1. I think there is definitely a place for a 2 man Conclave in lists. For 60pts they will often be worth it even if they only get off one 36" range Jinx after jumping out of a Serpent.
Even though the balance between the various Psykers is not perfect, I honestly think it's close enough that the following are all choices worth considering:
Warlock 35 Spiritseer 45 2 man Conclave 60 Farseer 100
That's fairly impressive internal balance for a group of units that are so similar in cost and function.
EDIT: Also, at 240pts total that's a nice combo of HQ's to unlock a battalion and two 1 CP detachments for an 8 CP list. If you've got 10pts spare it's probably worth upgrading the Warlock to another Spiritseer.
Looking at Concordance of Power wording, I got a bit confused: when DO I declare actual target for my debuff powers? I take I just don't declare targets at all until I manifest powers? It's counter intuitive but means enemy has something to be nervous about. And I was always all gentleman like and declared what I am doing before casting.
Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.
Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.
1) You roll the Psy test 2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it. 3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.
You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.
That's actually pretty significant.
Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.
Agreed on Hemlocks. Reapers get all the press, but Hemlocks are just as nasty. But some of that is just due to the fact that Flyers don't really work in 40k.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.
Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.
1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.
You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.
That's actually pretty significant.
Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.
Mind. Blown.
I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.
Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.
1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.
You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.
That's actually pretty significant.
Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.
Mind. Blown.
I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!
I agree. The wording of it all, implies you spend the CP on the power on a successful cast, so, you’d only activate it after the deny attempt has taken place.
In my view, this only really saves you a command point if you fail to cast the power to start with, as a lot of the time you’ll potentially be outside of deny range anyway.
EDIT: Also, at 240pts total that's a nice combo of HQ's to unlock a battalion and two 1 CP detachments for an 8 CP list. If you've got 10pts spare it's probably worth upgrading the Warlock to another Spiritseer.
Korlandril wrote:
2) Bike warlocks and farseers are obviously good for their added movement but both are costly when warlocks are good for being cheap HQs, though you would want a Spiritseer over a foot warlock because they are so much better for 10pts extra
Maybe but with smite nerfs i think it's onyl really worth throwing out one smite a turn, and i'd probably do it with a farseer if at all (maybe???). Other than that i got other things i'd rather spend the 10 points on i just want my ruins of battle. I think if you are bringing a warlock for quicken it should definitly be a spirit seer as they only ever cast quicken once, that or make it a 2 man council but i just don't think they are worth it at all.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah, a Conclave has to start the game in a Wave serpent to stand a chance. Although I find this is true for all my psykers- in 8th, if a unit starts on the board, it can die before you get a turn. A two man conclave can get in a Serpent with another 10 man unit. Eldar Psykers can usually move ~14" out of a Serpent before casting, which, combined with the decent range on their powers, means you can buff/debuff whatever you need to. I have not yet felt the need to pay for a bike on anyone.
I don't know how this happens my whole army usually has to die before any my characters can be targeted out is what i've found. Heck even the fliers in your list if you know how to deploy and position will block the ability of enemy units from shooting your characters at all. The conclave in a serpent i only have to kill 1 serpent and then the conclave inside is a easy target that dies to a a limb breeze.
I so like the flexibility of a conclaive and i don't hate the idea of a one time use 4 man conclave who suicide cast 2 power with +1 and 36" range so they have get key powers off outside of deny range, and then just die. I think a cost effective analyse should be done on A funn squad of shining spears alone vs buffed with empower+enhance (factoring in the cost of the 4 man conclaive). If the cost effectiveness is close to the normal shining spear unit cost effectiveness that might be worth doing.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.
Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.
1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.
You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.
That's actually pretty significant.
Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.
Mind. Blown.
I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!
I agree. The wording of it all, implies you spend the CP on the power on a successful cast, so, you’d only activate it after the deny attempt has taken place.
In my view, this only really saves you a command point if you fail to cast the power to start with, as a lot of the time you’ll potentially be outside of deny range anyway.
yeah to me the whole point of 36" range spells is to cast them out side of deny range or atleast outside the range of some one like magnus.
I don't know how this happens my whole army usually has to die before any my characters can be targeted out is what i've found. Heck even the fliers in your list if you know how to deploy and position will block the ability of enemy units from shooting your characters at all. The conclave in a serpent i only have to kill 1 serpent and then the conclave inside is a easy target that dies to a a limb breeze.
Characters in Serpents are certainly a lot easier to keep alive than a Conclave no doubt. But the general point about anything you deploy possibly dying turn one is just something I've learnt from experience. For example I was quite surprised at one event when I played against a guard/marine list with loads of lascannons and six units of snipers. My Farseer in a wave serpent with a unit did not survive the first turn. There also always seems to be some new combo coming out with units Deep Striking in, moving six times, charging a unit, killing it, consolidating into a new unit and killing that too lol.
yeah to me the whole point of 36" range spells is to cast them out side of deny range or atleast outside the range of some one like magnus.
Agreed, I just thought I'd mention it for completeness.
I'm going to make a thread in General about that psychic power timing as it's seems worthy of a public service announcement.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.
Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.
1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.
You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.
That's actually pretty significant.
Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.
Mind. Blown.
I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!
Posting this here for completeness sake because I do not think this is correct.
I do not agree. All psychic powers say 'if manifested choose...' (referencing the CSM, Eldar and Tyranid books I have immediately at hand) and per page 178 of the main rule book under section 2 it says
"If the total is equal to or greater than the power's warp charge value the power is successfully manifested.
Emphasis my own. However we can see the power is manifested before the deny step (which is step 3 of the sequence).
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.
Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.
1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.
You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.
That's actually pretty significant.
Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.
Mind. Blown.
I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!
Posting this here for completeness sake because I do not think this is correct.
I do not agree. All psychic powers say 'if manifested choose...' (referencing the CSM, Eldar and Tyranid books I have immediately at hand) and per page 178 of the main rule book under section 2 it says
"If the total is equal to or greater than the power's warp charge value the power is successfully manifested.
Emphasis my own. However we can see the power is manifested before the deny step (which is step 3 of the sequence).
Manifested, yes. Resolved, no. You follow the wording on the Psychic Power on resolution, meaning you pick targets at that step because it says to follow the wording on the power.
That is incorrect - psychic powers all tell us to choose a target when manifested, not resolved. The rule book uses very specific language in this case. A psychic power is manifested before deny the witch and resolved after. Each power tells you to select a target once manifested.
I don't intend to sound rude or pedantic but I don't see this as arguable. The rule book uses a specific word and that word coincides with target selection in the psychic power. In no form is a power required to be resolved before it is manifested.
Farseer_V2 wrote: That is incorrect - psychic powers all tell us to choose a target when manifested, not resolved. The rule book uses very specific language in this case. A psychic power is manifested before deny the witch and resolved after. Each power tells you to select a target once manifested.
I don't intend to sound rude or pedantic but I don't see this as arguable. The rule book uses a specific word and that word coincides with target selection in the psychic power. In no form is a power required to be resolved before it is manifested.
Don't fret. You aren't being Pedantic. You are right, it seems. The phrase "if manifested" does appear on pretty much every power. My bad for not checking more carefully.
Maybe but with smite nerfs i think it's onyl really worth throwing out one smite a turn, and i'd probably do it with a farseer if at all (maybe???). Other than that i got other things i'd rather spend the 10 points on i just want my ruins of battle. I think if you are bringing a warlock for quicken it should definitly be a spirit seer as they only ever cast quicken once, that or make it a 2 man council but i just don't think they are worth it at all.
I assume he is referencing the 'beta rules' posted on the Warhammer Community page. Effectively each cast of smite is reduced by 1 for each previous attempt (successful or not) at casting smite.
Farseer_V2 wrote: That is incorrect - psychic powers all tell us to choose a target when manifested, not resolved. The rule book uses very specific language in this case. A psychic power is manifested before deny the witch and resolved after. Each power tells you to select a target once manifested.
I don't intend to sound rude or pedantic but I don't see this as arguable. The rule book uses a specific word and that word coincides with target selection in the psychic power. In no form is a power required to be resolved before it is manifested.
Don't fret. You aren't being Pedantic. You are right, it seems. The phrase "if manifested" does appear on pretty much every power. My bad for not checking more carefully.
FYI he/she is not correct. The argument being made is one that leads to some rather daft places and assumes that picking a target is not part of resolving a power, which it is. A thread discussing it is in General but apparently should have been in YMDC- I underestimated Dakka lol.
And @Moosatronic - I don't think you've underestimated much of anything of than your own certitude. I find it hard to believe that you didn't think you'd be double checked on such a larger assertion. Ultimately I've laid out my argument on the subject and submitted an FAQ email to both GW and Frontline so I'll know how to handle it in the environments I play in.
admironheart wrote: Tried out a list with Wild Riders and Fieldcraft. I did not have enough CPs but the Saim-Hann is a nice nice detachment for vypers.
The Nova Lance Autarch took out over 400 points of ork characters.
Read the rest, but HOOOLLLLDDD THE PHONE. Would you mind elaborating on this one?
Never Played orks....he had 2 burner tank units from Forgeworld and 2 big walkers from forgeworld. The spears went after the first walker and th Nova Lance autarch went after a burner. He did like 4 wounds to the burner....no big impact....the spears meanwhile took out one of his forgeworld big walkers.
He charges his big CC boss into the Autarch Skyrunner and does like 2 wounds to him....The skyrunner kills the big boss in hth with a slew of 6's for 4 wounds each on the Nova Lance.
Next the Autarch flys over and kills 2 warp boyz in short range hth and charges the other 2 and they both die.
He is fed up with this and charges a CC equipped Mek boy into the Autarch who makes all his saves and finishes him off ....next turn he kills some other ork character(maybe mekboy with grot)
He then gets shot to death by the 2nd forgeworld walker.....but he terrorized all his characters.
This is also my experience of the biketarch, that he's exceedingly good at targeting and taking down enemy characters in particular. His speed is insane, he doesn't have to worry about bringing support into tight spots where characters can be targeted, and doesn't have to depend on dice for psychic tests or strategems, and can usually get close enough that charge rolls aren't an issue. He can stand up to loads of punishment--until the moment when your roll a handfull of 1's and 2's for saves, but by then hopefully the damage is done. Hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s means you almost never miss anything.
If you're used to 5th edition biketarchs like I am--i.e. the ones who can only kill an enemy on the charge and then are saddled with a str3 stick for the rest of combat--it's shocking how often your autarch can put 2 or 4 wounds on an enemy in the second round of combat to finish off a character. It's because of the 4 melee attacks usually turning up 4 hits, then you get lucky with one or two wounds and your opponent is trying to roll invuls.
-I run the index version with the fusion gun and laser lance. The fusion gun is great for potentially putting 3 or 4 wounds on a target before you even charge in.
-I play Ulthwe, so I miss out on the artifact lance, but Foresight of the Damned usually gives the autarch effectively a couple of extra wounds during the course of the game, and there's the occasional wacky roll where you turn up three sixes or whatever. Also it gives you at least a chance to do something against smite.
-The shimmerplume is the go-to artifact for me, but I've also played the phoenix gem in combat patrol, where I knew the autarch would be off on his own a lot, and that pays off too in denying an opponent Slay the Warlord in the last turn or whatever.
-Mark of the Incomparable Hunter allows your autarch to advance 22" and fire the fusion gun, laser lance *and* 4 shuricats at any character within 12" with no penalty. Usually all the guns hit. As long as you're not planning to assault that turn.
Remember if you are going to go with 4 warlocks in a conclave...you have 2 additional problems.
The size of the unit is harder to hide/fit inside a WS.
Once you lose 1 warlock you are down to a 3 man unit that can cast 1 spell.
Much better to take 2 two man Conclaves.
Pros:
You can have 4 powers available.
You can cast 2 powers always as long as you have 1 model each (Essentially the opponent needs to do more than 3 wounds otherwise your unit is still viable
Easier to tuck 2 units into multiple WSs with other models or to hide behind that rock.
I always use 1 conclave but may start using twin conclaves.
Since Reapers/ WraithGuard/ and War Walkers take almost all the first turn shooting (Fire Dragons and Web Guardians if you do go first also) I find that it isn't till turn 2 or 3 that the Conclave is a priority for enemy shooting.
I haven't run into many Eldar players in my local area and was hoping some of you guys would be kind enough to give me the quick-and-dirty of how Eldar play in 8th, what units to take a gander at, and what units to avoid. Thinking about starting a small Biel-Tan army but really don't have too much of an idea if I even like how Eldar play.
I haven't run into many Eldar players in my local area and was hoping some of you guys would be kind enough to give me the quick-and-dirty of how Eldar play in 8th, what units to take a gander at, and what units to avoid. Thinking about starting a small Biel-Tan army but really don't have too much of an idea if I even like how Eldar play.
Thanks in advance.
I would say you will see a smattering of these units:
Dark Reapers perhaps in multiples. They can start in tanks move shoot and then use stratagem to hide
Hemlock Wraith or Crimson hunter Fighter for heavy hitting.
Wave Serpents.....hard to kill and best transport in the game
WebWay Portal...Most likely Guardians to get in your face with 40+ shots
Some fast hth unit like Shining Spears or Howling Banshees for a turn 1 alpha strike
Everything else is meh.
War Walkers, Vypers WraithGuard, Fire Dragons all can be devastating but require some 'stunt'
If you want to know what the elder will do....learn their STRATEGEMS. The best armies will be built to use those strategems to take average units and make them into 'wow' units.
I would add the various psykers to that list of units to take. You have to take HQs to unlock the detachments anyway but their powers are also very good.
I'd also say that Swooping Hawks and possibly Fire Prisms are above "meh" and worth considering. Fire Prsims are outclassed by Reapers but still a decent unit. Hawks are fairly niche anti-horde and outclassed by webway Guardians, but you can only really have one webway Guardian unit so Hawks are worth it if hordes are a problem. I've found that 20 Guardians, 10 Hawks and 9 Spears can be very effective at clearing hordes on the first turn.
How does everyone feel about Falcons? They seem to be an overlooked option, they have the capacity to protect MSU Aspect Warriors turn 1 while also providing reliable AT fire support. Granted they're not as durable as Wave Serpents but they can help fill out those Spearhead detachments while giving transport capacity.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: How does everyone feel about Falcons? They seem to be an overlooked option, they have the capacity to protect MSU Aspect Warriors turn 1 while also providing reliable AT fire support. Granted they're not as durable as Wave Serpents but they can help fill out those Spearhead detachments while giving transport capacity.
Falcons are outclassed by Serpents in a transport role and outclassed by Prisms in a heavy tank role. That's the problem. You want Falcons to fill one of those roles, but their are better options and Serpents actually come close to outclassing them in the Heavy tank roll too.
Falcons SHOULD have been given the same "shoot twice" rule that Prims have. Especially considering "Pulsed Laser discharge" has Pulse laser in the name. But even then, Prisms might still be better.
Falcon is not a bad tank, it just lacks a proper role, which makes it look subpar to others.
Shooting twice is main tank thing. I'd give Falcon ability to move and shoot heavy weapons without penalties, to represent it's back line transport role, compared to WS front line transport role.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: How does everyone feel about Falcons? They seem to be an overlooked option, they have the capacity to protect MSU Aspect Warriors turn 1 while also providing reliable AT fire support. Granted they're not as durable as Wave Serpents but they can help fill out those Spearhead detachments while giving transport capacity.
Not good enough compared to wave serpents. If you really want heavy firepower then there are better options discussed in this thread: Chunters, reapers, prisms, etc. If you want transports then serpents are far better; more durable, more mobile with vectored engines and shuricannon loadout.
It's a shame, they should have gotten something to hark back to the old squadron special rules but their cloudstrike ability was given to all vehicles via strategem and only prisms got a joint fire strategem. Move and shoot at full bs would have been a good one.
I think the Falcon has a niche role, granted of course it's not the optimal choice for either a dedicated transport or dedicated heavy fire support. I think if you're looking to fill in some leftover points and the last slot of a Spearhead while providing some decent fire support and keeping your deployment drops down while you're at it you could do worse than a Falcon. It's not going to find a place in every list but I could see it working in the right situation.
The falcon is weird because damage out put wise it can beat all varients of a wave serpent. That said the falcon is considerably more fragile as the serpent shield goes quite the long way. So a transport for transport sake the wave serepent is better.
Then as a damaging platform fire prisms/hunters/hemlocks/etc all beat out the fire prism while also being as tough of tougher than your falcon. So as a gun boat it sucks.
I think the falcon isn't nessarily bad. It's actuialy quite decent you look at it. It's just that it doesn't lend itself to helping any plan better than any other unit in our codex.
^^ Ive never considered how similar the Falcon and Razorback are in this edition.
Firepower is very similar you have (for example) a Twin lascannon and stormbolter, vs a Twin Shuricat, pulse laser and a heavy weapon such as a bright lance. Very similar.
Protection is also similar, with 2 extra wounds on the Falcon if I remember correct? Other stats the same. Razorback has smoke launchers also.
Mobility is where the Falcon is stronger, with a better base move and the Fly keyword. This is what you pay the extra points for.
I think its fair to also factor in Chapter Tactics/Craftworld attributes, as Razorbacks are always unaffected by them while Falcons nearly always gain a benefit
If we compare the points cost of a lascannon razorback and a Falcon with Bright lance, there is only 30 points difference. Pretty good deal if you look at it that way, razorbacks are universally considered quite good value even after a small points increase.
Fafnir wrote: Razorbacks get to reroll to hit and to wound though, and that's where the difference in value starts to pop up.
Pretty sure that would be an issue related to Guilliman, rather than Razorbacks being overpowered. Razorbacks are still strong though thats for sure, otherwise UM players would be spamming something else to take advantage of the rerolls.
A Razorback is a good comparison, not to mention that it has comparable or superior firepower, better durability (+2 wounds, -1 to hit from Alaitoc, and 6+++ from spirit stones/Ulthwe), and better mobility. I think in Eldar's case you wouldn't use them as SM use Razorbacks (being solely cost efficient fire support in a parking lot) but more along the lines of a turn 1 safety net for your Aspect Warriors and decent fire support and backline objective camper if you don't have the points for another Wave Serpent as well as being a Heavy Support slot to fill in a Spearhead if you don't want to shell out the points for two Fire Prisms (because you would never take just one Prism, always in pairs for Linked Fire). Definitely a jack of all trades option, but in the right situation I don't think it's a bad thing.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: A Razorback is a good comparison, not to mention that it has comparable or superior firepower, better durability (+2 wounds, -1 to hit from Alaitoc, and 6+++ from spirit stones/Ulthwe), and better mobility. I think in Eldar's case you wouldn't use them as SM use Razorbacks (being solely cost efficient fire support in a parking lot) but more along the lines of a turn 1 safety net for your Aspect Warriors and decent fire support and backline objective camper if you don't have the points for another Wave Serpent as well as being a Heavy Support slot to fill in a Spearhead if you don't want to shell out the points for two Fire Prisms (because you would never take just one Prism, always in pairs for Linked Fire). Definitely a jack of all trades option, but in the right situation I don't think it's a bad thing.
That's a good point, while a Wave Serpent is generally better it essentially costs points which do not contribute to the number of CP you generate. You can't use dedicated transports to fill out detachments.
Imagine if Falcons also got the 'Pulse Laser discharge' rule, say: the ability to fire the pulse laser twice when moving < half movement speed. Would that be too much? Would they start to replace the more common ranged firepower units we see on the table currently such as Prisms, Crimson Hunters, or Dark Reapers even??
Yeah I think the filling out detachments part gets over looked but I understand that's a niche situation and people generally fill that slot with Dark Reapers/Fire Prisms/etc anyway. I don't think giving the Falcon that rule would be OP. The Pulse Laser + BL option has comparable and more reliable damage than a twin BL Serpent, if anything giving it that ability would make you see them more if anything. Missed opportunity.
I've run mass grav tanks with 3 Fire Prisms and 3 Falcons in 7th just because I own those models and a squadron of 3 could deepstrike.
I have a list of 3 of each which I'll be trying out soon, with the aim being having so many multi wound models to overwhelm the multi damage weapons. Cloudstriking the 3 Falcons to provide a big threat in your opponents face and also unloading a load of Dire Avengers to score objectives. You can achieve this with Serpents but you get different fire power compared to Serpents with the pulse laser. Also I think with Serpents you want the tri-cannon loadout with Vectored Engines always. As others have mentioned you also get CP from having heavy support choices.
I also have another list where a single Falcon will be acting as a command vehicle in that it will deploy with Farseer and Spiritseers in it.
In general are people using the cloudstrike strat at all? It is way more efficient CP wise to deepstrike a similar amount of units. Three Wave Serpents with just guardian defenders and psykers in would be similar to a guardian bomb but you can bring your support characters with you and provide Wave Serpents as another threat for your opponent to fire at instead of your guardians. Though you can't disembark the turn you come in on right?
Korlandril wrote: I've run mass grav tanks with 3 Fire Prisms and 3 Falcons in 7th just because I own those models and a squadron of 3 could deepstrike.
I have a list of 3 of each which I'll be trying out soon, with the aim being having so many multi wound models to overwhelm the multi damage weapons. Cloudstriking the 3 Falcons to provide a big threat in your opponents face and also unloading a load of Dire Avengers to score objectives. You can achieve this with Serpents but you get different fire power compared to Serpents with the pulse laser. Also I think with Serpents you want the tri-cannon loadout with Vectored Engines always. As others have mentioned you also get CP from having heavy support choices.
I also have another list where a single Falcon will be acting as a command vehicle in that it will deploy with Farseer and Spiritseers in it.
In general are people using the cloudstrike strat at all? It is way more efficient CP wise to deepstrike a similar amount of units. Three Wave Serpents with just guardian defenders and psykers in would be similar to a guardian bomb but you can bring your support characters with you and provide Wave Serpents as another threat for your opponent to fire at instead of your guardians. Though you can't disembark the turn you come in on right?
I have found as far as positioning, that Eldar vehicles move fast enough to get where they’re going turn 1 anyway without spending a command point.
Also it seems to me that Eldar grav tanks particularly are durable enough to weather a turn of fire when you’re going second (maybe with a little help from lightning reflexes for one of them). For transports, since you have to take a turn of fire after cloudstrike before the passengers can disembark anyway, why not just deploy?
Flavius Infernus wrote: I have found as far as positioning, that Eldar vehicles move fast enough to get where they’re going turn 1 anyway without spending a command point.
Also it seems to me that Eldar grav tanks particularly are durable enough to weather a turn of fire when you’re going second (maybe with a little help from lightning reflexes for one of them). For transports, since you have to take a turn of fire after cloudstrike before the passengers can disembark anyway, why not just deploy?
In a way you are correct but then if you deploy your grav tanks on one flank your opponent can deploy to counter this and will know where feasibly these can get in one turn of movement. With a cloudstrike you can deepstrike where your opponent is weakest or where an objective is. It also forces your opponent to spread his forces to protect from deepstrike which could be beneficial to you.
Flavius Infernus wrote: I have found as far as positioning, that Eldar vehicles move fast enough to get where they’re going turn 1 anyway without spending a command point.
Also it seems to me that Eldar grav tanks particularly are durable enough to weather a turn of fire when you’re going second (maybe with a little help from lightning reflexes for one of them). For transports, since you have to take a turn of fire after cloudstrike before the passengers can disembark anyway, why not just deploy?
In a way you are correct but then if you deploy your grav tanks on one flank your opponent can deploy to counter this and will know where feasibly these can get in one turn of movement. With a cloudstrike you can deepstrike where your opponent is weakest or where an objective is. It also forces your opponent to spread his forces to protect from deepstrike which could be beneficial to you.
Another thing to note is that, from a "disembark" point of view, there is no difference between starting on the table in Wave Serpents and deep striking in Wave Serpents. This is because if you want to move the contents up the table, you'll be disembarking 2nd turn anyway, as it's before moving now, rather than after.
As for the Falcon - I personally think you'd seem more of them again if you could take them in "squadrons" again. If you could take 3 and deep strike them all for 1 cp, while containing 5 fire dragons/banshee's apiece and a psyker of some kind, you'd put out some serious hurt turn 1 and 2.
As it stands, spending 1CP to deep strike 1 WS or Falcon or 3CP for 2, just doesn't seem anywhere near, worth it.
With the Codex having been out a couple months now, how many Command Points do you generally start with? I tend to start with 9 or 10 in a 2000 point army, which is up from my Index armies a few months back.
I also have another list where a single Falcon will be acting as a command vehicle in that it will deploy with Farseer and Spiritseers in it.
This is the best use for a Falcon I have seen mentioned. My lists always have foot slogging psykers in because I usually need at least 4 HQs to fill detachments. There have been a few times I've written lists without any Serpents and then at the end realized I've got nowhere to hide my HQs. They only need to hide for the first turn if you're going second, and can then jump out and be screened by deep strikers while the Falcon acts as a poor mans Prism.
Still though, I doubt I'll use one. Maybe 2 prisms and a Falcon with Psykers in to fill out a spearhead.
Edit: A falcon with a Bright Lance does do more damage to the average vehicle stat line than a Prism at least.
With the Codex having been out a couple months now, how many Command Points do you generally start with? I tend to start with 9 or 10 in a 2000 point army, which is up from my Index armies a few months back
I almost always have 8. More than that requires 6 troops which I normally find to be too much of a tax.
That's similar to how I would use a Falcon if I were to include one, put a 5 man squad of Dark Reapers and a Farseer in it to protect them turn 1 while having my second Dark Reaper squad ready to webway strike. All while providing fire support and filling in the Spearhead. Then I'd equip the Falcon with a BL for AT work or a Starcannon to help take out Terminators or TEQs that try and deep strike into my back line.
Sarigar wrote: With the Codex having been out a couple months now, how many Command Points do you generally start with? I tend to start with 9 or 10 in a 2000 point army, which is up from my Index armies a few months back.
My current list is running 10 - 2 Battalion (one Ynnari) and an Air Wing
Most of my lists get only 7-8 CPs, but I don't have as many Troop units anymore and can barely do a single Battalion.
Side Rant: This is because I've used Bikes as my Troops since 4th edition and those are no longer Troops. Which is fine overall, except it screws me out of CPs and Objective Secured options. I will not be buying more Troops than I currently have, so I have to live with a limited amount of CPs.
Maybe he doesn't like them. Rangers are Finecast (poor material, expensive), Guardians have horribly dated models and Dire Avengers aren't bad models but they aren't the greatest unit out there.
Maybe he doesn't like them. Rangers are Finecast (poor material, expensive), Guardians have horribly dated models and Dire Avengers aren't bad models but they aren't the greatest unit out there.
Fair enough, I'm not being accusatory, I was just curious as to why. Also regarding Finecast rangers - I have 15 and they were fine as far as quality is concerned.
Fair enough, I'm not being accusatory, I was just curious as to why. Also regarding Finecast rangers - I have 15 and they were fine as far as quality is concerned.
Maybe he doesn't like them. Rangers are Finecast (poor material, expensive), Guardians have horribly dated models and Dire Avengers aren't bad models but they aren't the greatest unit out there.
Fair enough, I'm not being accusatory, I was just curious as to why. Also regarding Finecast rangers - I have 15 and they were fine as far as quality is concerned.
DanielFM pretty much nailed it. While I like the aesthetics of all the Troops, I can't stand Finecast and DAs are ridiculously expensive (I remember when they were a box of 10 for $35, now they are more expensive for only 5). I might get Guardians eventually, but I really don't like "expendable" Eldar, which I really see Guardians as being. Currently I am using Kabalite with Woodelf cloaks as Rangers, but I can only afford 3 units for a Battalion.
I've also been playing Eldar for nearly a decade and have plenty of bikes that have ALWAYS been my core list, not just for 6th & 7th bandwagoning. I shouldn't have to shelve those models and buy new ones just because the meta and certain role changes say so. But that decision comes at the cost of not having as many CPs, which I think is the main reason Eldar have such good Stratagems: because they can't get as many CPs to use them all.
Fair point - I make sure to be able to run 10 CP just to have strong access to our stratagems which I agree are army defining. Even better when paired with parts of the Ynnari army.
I really don't see the 10 command point thing. For me Command points only really mattero n the first turn when you can use them on full size squads, and full strength vehicles. Having 10 is pretty over kill and my opinion unless you're using 2 webway strikes and ahve to throw away a battalion to do (but in that case your most likely droping guardian blobs who bring thier own command points).
I think you should really only bring enough command points for what you will most likely use for your first time. Bending your list to do anything else is kind of bad.
For instance my force currently is
Farseer
4x warlocks
2x full shining spear squads
2x Min Guardian squds
1x Ranger squad
2x waveseprent Star/vectored engines
2xswooping hawks.
Hemlock
Hunter exarch
I get 8CP and i plan to spend all of them by the end of the first battle round
1 Webway strike
2 Lightning Fast reactions
1 Supreme disdain
1 Seer council
1 Warriors of racing winds
2 Forwarned
Some of these don't end up geting used every game depending on situations. When i use CP in later turns it feel terrible. Lighting fast ractions on a flier when it's got 2 wounds left, or a squad of spears with 1 or 2 bikes left realyl doesnt'; have all that much value. Plus after the first turn both armies are like 500-600pt armies anyway, and having 2-4 more CP is just so meaningless on such small squads.
Eldar to me is all about those synergies, and even the stratagems are about the synergies. ALl the eldar units individually are kind of week, but they rely vey heavy on powerful buffs that allow them to get things done. If you aren't geting everything you need done on turn one, a skilled opponnent will pick appart all your synergies and leave you with just a bad army.
I definitely think that's missing the impact of later turn re-rolls of D6s (for example on a bright lance or making sure quicken goes off). I generally spend in my list (listed in spoiler below) 1-3 CP for Webway (Shining Spears and possibly reapers depending my match up), 1 for the Alatioc relic on my spirit seer, and possibly 1 to make sure quicken goes off. After that I've got between 5-7 CP left for a lighting fast when necessary (I'll use it every day on a hemlock to keep it alive because even at 2 wounds its fully lethal) or maybe a forewarning.
Ultimately I don't feel comfortable if I don't have at least 4 CP left after the first round to ensure against crucial moral loses, to re-roll a bright lance damage at a clutch moment, or to re-roll an important psychic power.
DanielFM pretty much nailed it. While I like the aesthetics of all the Troops, I can't stand Finecast and DAs are ridiculously expensive (I remember when they were a box of 10 for $35, now they are more expensive for only 5). I might get Guardians eventually, but I really don't like "expendable" Eldar, which I really see Guardians as being. Currently I am using Kabalite with Woodelf cloaks as Rangers, but I can only afford 3 units for a Battalion.
Slightly off topic, but would you mind posting photos of those conversions, either on your personal blog or in the gallery here?
I just noticed that Illic scrapped the d letter before damage of his rifle to keep with time. It means Voidbringer just one-shots some characters - and can put 3 damage on any monster reliably unless it has invul. But I take it nobody tries to put guy into their lists since they'd rather have Farseer or Autarch.
Shadenuat wrote: There is no limit to using stratagems that are activated before the game begins.
I never knew this! Thanks!!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing came to mind after my last battle. It was the first game that I used all my CPs by turn 2.
my opponent knew that I could not reroll and that I would never be able to interrupt his Fight phase.
If I had the ability to use 2 cp I could have changed the course of the battle in my favor. As it was I almost tabled him despite only winning 18 to 17 VPs
Shadenuat wrote: There is no limit to using stratagems that are activated before the game begins.
I never knew this! Thanks!!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing came to mind after my last battle. It was the first game that I used all my CPs by turn 2.
my opponent knew that I could not reroll and that I would never be able to interrupt his Fight phase.
If I had the ability to use 2 cp I could have changed the course of the battle in my favor. As it was I almost tabled him despite only winning 18 to 17 VPs
You could have but to get those 2 cp you'd need to bring 3 more units that are elss effective, and could have been in a worse situation to beggin with. Additionally those 3 units you need to bring all sort of suck in combat, excempt for maaaaaybe storm guardians. Thats not also to say that all the CP you used by turn 2 oculd have been spent on scratching your butt. That is to say that how do we know that was the ebst use of said CP.
Again it could have been that while it was nice that you couldn't interrupt him, maybe he could have still achieved his victory and avoided your chance to interrupt entirely.
CP pasted turn 1 are back up and just incase plans, but if they come at the expensive of actually having a plan in the first place i don't think they are worth it. That is to say if you need to take the engines off your boat to put in escape boats... then what's the point.
Alaitoc Brigade
Farseer
Conclave
Warlock
2 large Guardian blobs
15 storm guardians
10 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 rangers
Falcon
Falcon
3 man Reapers with shuriken cannon
Wave Serpent
large swooping hawk squad
3 Vypers or large shining spear unit
1 Vyper
large banshee squad
5 fire dragons
some other elite unit (bonesinger?)
20 units.
Put 2 units in each falcon. and 3 in the wave serpent.
Now your at 13 units to field.
Alaitoc Brigade
Farseer
Conclave
Warlock
2 large Guardian blobs
15 storm guardians
10 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 rangers
Falcon
Falcon
3 man Reapers with shuriken cannon
Wave Serpent
large swooping hawk squad
3 Vypers or large shining spear unit
1 Vyper
large banshee squad
5 fire dragons
some other elite unit (bonesinger?)
20 units.
Put 2 units in each falcon. and 3 in the wave serpent.
Now your at 13 units to field.
Start 3 or so units in Reserves.
Alternately start 3 tanks with cloudstrike.
any ideas?
I dont like cloud strikign the falcons if you are gonna put stuff inside. They won't be shooting till turn 2, as they can't get out. The deployment thing can be fixed by using the phantasm stratagem that elts you redoply 3 units which is about the same as cloud strike, but you can still disembark and cost fewer CP..ALso you can't webway and cloud strike.
Why the 10 man dire avenger squads??? I think if your gonna get a bigger dire avenger squad jsut get 1- guardians and use the extra points else where. Even more so if you are bring transports who will help them get into range. Are the storm guardians walking??? Are all the guardians just walking??? They are so dead x.x Guardians durability wise are guadians men that cost twice as much. They really want to webway or wave serpent ride.
I guess you dont have tempest launcher exarchs???
I think you're anti tank is very... precarious?? Its pretty much all in the fire dragons. If your opponent brings a tank heavy list. He's gonna focus fire down your fire dragons pretty hard. Even if they web way in tyhey'll only take out one MAAAybe two tanks, and then they'll be very vulnerable to fire from thier. After they are removed the tank heavy player will have nothing to really fear from your army. The reapers could help but jsut 1 3 man squads with the exarch having a shurikan cannon??? doesn't seem like that and the falcons would realisticly threaten too many tanks (each falcon doing maybe 3 wounds a turn to tanks, and the reapers doing maybe 2 or 3??) .
I think your listen currently could go a few ways, but i'd lean heavier on mech. Just bring 1- man guardian squads with bright lances. Then the fire drangons and reapers. That way you have more ctredible anti tank options. Still bringing the wave serpents and falcons of course. I think if you wanna bring any kind of armor you want 4+ pieces or nothing. As at 4 or more you really start to tax your opponents anti armor weapons, and they will really struggle to take out your vehicles in a timely manner.
Yea I agree about the 4 tanks. I normally go heavy on reapers, fire dragons and wraithguard combined with 1, 2,3 or even 4 Wave Serpents.
I think that I will use WebWay over Cloud Strike but the potential to put a full unit of Vypers in safety is nice for 1 cp.
Ive been getting away from reapers and trying new units....like shining spears and hawks.
The point of the 10 Dire Avengers is a one two punch for enemy deep strike chargers like Genestealers or Komandoes.
So I keep the better protected Avengers in a long line but close enough that no model can fit between them. I then place the 15 storm guardians touching the Avengers in a line behind them. The opponent can charge the storm guardians but likely wont be able to actually get into base to base.
The Avengers use the 5+ Overwatch to kill 3 or 4 models normally. That is usually just enough that the Avengers wont die. The opponent usually makes the mistake of consolidating into the Storm Guardians. I get a round of free attacks doing a few minor kills.
Next turn I cast Enhance and use Supreme Disdain ....With either Jinx or Doom I have yet to not wipe out a unit with buffed Storm Guardians (plus they can fire their pistols in the shooting phase)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess playing a lot of Tyranid and ork lists has me focusing on hordes.
The last tank list had 3 leman russes and 2 basilisks with drop troops and again a horde of guard. Tanks are always easy for me....its to waves of grunts that hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't recommend WebWay for Fire Dragons. They will be outside their sweet melta range.
Much better to warp in WraithGuard. then use fire and fade into a fast moving wave serpent with vectored engines for some nice protection and a pretty sure 2nd round of shooting IF they take down the transport.
admironheart wrote: Yea I agree about the 4 tanks. I normally go heavy on reapers, fire dragons and wraithguard combined with 1, 2,3 or even 4 Wave Serpents.
I think that I will use WebWay over Cloud Strike but the potential to put a full unit of Vypers in safety is nice for 1 cp.
Ive been getting away from reapers and trying new units....like shining spears and hawks.
The point of the 10 Dire Avengers is a one two punch for enemy deep strike chargers like Genestealers or Komandoes.
So I keep the better protected Avengers in a long line but close enough that no model can fit between them. I then place the 15 storm guardians touching the Avengers in a line behind them. The opponent can charge the storm guardians but likely wont be able to actually get into base to base.
The Avengers use the 5+ Overwatch to kill 3 or 4 models normally. That is usually just enough that the Avengers wont die. The opponent usually makes the mistake of consolidating into the Storm Guardians. I get a round of free attacks doing a few minor kills.
Next turn I cast Enhance and use Supreme Disdain ....With either Jinx or Doom I have yet to not wipe out a unit with buffed Storm Guardians (plus they can fire their pistols in the shooting phase)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess playing a lot of Tyranid and ork lists has me focusing on hordes.
The last tank list had 3 leman russes and 2 basilisks with drop troops and again a horde of guard. Tanks are always easy for me....its to waves of grunts that hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't recommend WebWay for Fire Dragons. They will be outside their sweet melta range.
Much better to warp in WraithGuard. then use fire and fade into a fast moving wave serpent with vectored engines for some nice protection and a pretty sure 2nd round of shooting IF they take down the transport.
you have a warlock conlave with no better target for quicken. why not just webway and quiken the dragons.Then you can fire and fade them into a transport.
your dire avenger strat seems neat, but you could do about the same with the storm guardians in a wave serpent.
Been playing eldar about a month, building up to a competitive list and played my first hemlock last night, bit underwhelming compared to other units like spears and dark reapers. Never really played flyers before, i used it to block movement and put a couple of wounds on some vehicles. Are they best run it pairs or along side a crimson hunter? Any general tips to playing them or flyers in general?
pilchard8 wrote: Been playing eldar about a month, building up to a competitive list and played my first hemlock last night, bit underwhelming compared to other units like spears and dark reapers. Never really played flyers before, i used it to block movement and put a couple of wounds on some vehicles. Are they best run it pairs or along side a crimson hunter? Any general tips to playing them or flyers in general?
Yes they are best run in pairs. Most players either take 2 + a Crimson Hunter, or 3 Hemlocks in a Flyer detachment. In multiples they become a true nuisance for your opponent and are great fire magnets.
Yeah Crimson hunters in pairs are brutal but even one should be doing more than a few wounds on some vehicles 2D3 S12 D2 auto hit shots is enough to at least bracket many tanks in one round of fire.
I use 2 Hemlocks, both have Jinx so that I can maximize where I can cast it. The other Hemlock then just uses Smite, which can often put that extra bit of damage to get a vehicle into a lower damage bracket. I use Jinx on units that I plan to shoot lower AP weapons at, or units with invuls
Horrfiy is like -1LD??? that isn't so good for purposes of battle shock a smite will do the much ore better pretty much every time <.<. It might be good when combo'd with mind war, but.... thats a lot of investment and even the nthe -1 is basicly just one more damage...
mmimzie wrote: Horrfiy is like -1LD??? that isn't so good for purposes of battle shock a smite will do the much ore better pretty much every time <.<. It might be good when combo'd with mind war, but.... thats a lot of investment and even the nthe -1 is basicly just one more damage...
Against ten man AM squads... -2 bubble from hemlock (mindshock pods)... another -1 from horrify (especially useful if infantry "must" use a characters leadership, so you can get this character to have a -3 right off the top)... you only need to kill a few guardsmen and they start losing even more due to morale.
So you could get several units in range... pepper them slightly and watch them melt due to morale.
Trust me, I have melted IG lines using this tactic.
don't get me wrong Jinx is my primary, and smite on occasion, but horrify has been very helpful as well. I usually run 2 hemlocks (jinx, horrify) and one crimson hunter (Alaitoc). I have never been disappointed.
Not to mention with the changes to smite coming (BETA rules), I'm trying to be less reliant on having a bunch of smites.
The mindshock bubble also could help with Mind War if you have a nearby farseer. (especially if you have a swooping hawk unit near the farseer)
mmimzie wrote: Horrfiy is like -1LD??? that isn't so good for purposes of battle shock a smite will do the much ore better pretty much every time <.<. It might be good when combo'd with mind war, but.... thats a lot of investment and even the nthe -1 is basicly just one more damage...
Against ten man AM squads... -2 bubble from hemlock (mindshock pods)... another -1 from horrify (especially useful if infantry "must" use a characters leadership, so you can get this character to have a -3 right off the top)... you only need to kill a few guardsmen and they start losing even more due to morale.
So you could get several units in range... pepper them slightly and watch them melt due to morale.
Trust me, I have melted IG lines using this tactic.
don't get me wrong Jinx is my primary, and smite on occasion, but horrify has been very helpful as well. I usually run 2 hemlocks (jinx, horrify) and one crimson hunter (Alaitoc). I have never been disappointed.
Not to mention with the changes to smite coming (BETA rules), I'm trying to be less reliant on having a bunch of smites.
The mindshock bubble also could help with Mind War if you have a nearby farseer. (especially if you have a swooping hawk unit near the farseer)
Oh don't get me wrong the mind shot prob is great it hits many diffrent units instead of jsut one and is -2, and doesn't take your power. Infact if you go through this very thread i repeatedly go so far as to say the hemlock is a required take for any competive eldar list.
However horrify is jsut one unit right???? It's also just -1. It also requires a 6+ to cast. You'd literally get the same effect from smiting, and even better if you roll better than a 1. So in term fo battle shjock it's jsut not good enough. Even more so since horrify goes off on a 5, and smite can go off on a 5 or a 6 if some one else has already tried it...
Its true horrify can be cast on a morale boosting character to work across multiple squads of Gaurdsmen. However, we are probably talking about Commisars, right?
Ive not seen a single one of those used since the nerf, and I see a fair bit of IG
I give up any attempt to build a useful elder brigade in a 2k or smaller list.
Everytime I get close.....I'm left with a few 'tax' units that have no real fit in my army's plan.
Or I am left with sooo many deployment drops that there is little chance of going first ever. I find going second actually beneficial more often than not with my lists but sometimes I like the option to try to get first.
I posted this list on a couple of other forums after watching a couple of 2000 pts games on the Warp Charged Gaming channel on YouTube, in which the Aeldari player struggled against Chaos lists featuring Obliterators, Brimstone Horrors, Malefic Lords, and Alpha Legion Khorne Berserkers, plus some combination of Daemon Princes and Magnus/Abaddon (depending on the game). So, I tried to think of an Aeldari list that should grind such a Chaos list into dust. Here goes...
ALAITOC BRIGADE
Farseer w/Doom, Guide, Faolchu's Wing (Warlord: Seer of the Shifting Vector)
Spiritseer w/Protect/Jinx
Spiritseer w/Conceal/Reveal
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch, Hawk's Talon
5 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch, Hawk's Talon
5 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch, Hawk's Talon
10 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher
10 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher
Fire Prism w/Crystal Targeting Matrix
Fire Prism w/Crystal Targeting Matrix
Fire Prism
101 PL 1998 pts
12 CP
The idea is simple: leave no room for enemy reinforcements, then use long ranged firepower to rip apart anything that wanders into line of sight.
Obviously, the Prisms and Reapers (accompanied by the Farseer) are the back line. You can protect either the Prisms or the Reapers with Cloudstrike or Webway Strike as desired. There's a case to be made for leaving the Reapers on the table near the Farseer during deployment if your opponent has threatening reinforcements, then use Forewarned on the Reapers to vaporize one such unit as it is set up (even works on Alpha Legion Forward Operatives AFAIK). I chose Faolchu's Wing over the Shiftshroud of Alanssair specifically because I wanted to preserve my ability to use Forewarned ASAP; extra shots with a full squad of Reapers is too strong to pass up. Between the Reapers and the Prisms, there's nothing you can't kill in one turn, especially with Linked Fire. Don't be afraid to move your Reapers and Prisms to claim objectives, since the former suffer no hit modifiers and two of the latter have CTMs. Just be mindful of enemy reinforcements that might drop into any gaps you make in your denial network.
The Banshees and Spiritseers form a small mop-up/spearhead in the midfield. Their job is to finish off any weakened units that aren't worth shooting anymore, and to tie up big/fast threats for a turn if you just don't have time to deal with them at the moment. If an enemy unit is a particularly tough nut to crack, the Spiritseers can either Smite it or lower its saves, but in the first turn or two they will probably be focused on keeping your Dark Reapers alive.
The Rangers are mainly for extending your reinforcement denial network well into the midfield, but they're great for camping objectives anywhere on the table. Since there are 30 of them, they're also a reliable means of picking off irritating support characters, especially The Changeling, making your primary damage dealers much more effective.
This list has amazing weaponry, but it could use more efficiency against particularly numerous and squishy targets (especially Brimstones with their invulnerable saves!), and Hawks provide that efficiency with both their Grenade Packs and their Lasblasters. The Hawks are also excellent for grabbing distant objectives once nearby enemy units get reduced to ash and mist by your heavy firepower.
I'm glad I was able to squeeze the list into a Brigade because it's going to be using a lot of CPs. Even if you don't use Cloudstrike, Webway Strike, or Phantasm, you can easily burn all of your CP by Turn 2 on some combination of Forewarned, Linked Fire, Lightning Fast Reactions, and maybe even Runes of Witnessing and Pathfinders. Don't do that! You have a redundant Fire Prism, so try to save Lightning Fast Reactions for your Reapers, use Linked Fire each turn, and try to use Forewarned to get extra shots on the units most likely to threaten your ranged firepower (especially Slaanesh Obliterators if they can drop close enough). Remember, you have Banshees, Hawks, and Spiritseers as a rapid response to threats, plus a lot of dispersed, small units that you won't miss if several of them die. If you consistently address the threats to your Reapers and Prisms, you should win the war of attrition easily and still have enough units when it comes to claiming objectives.
Hemlocks are great, so more are going to be better. But even one is very useful. Mobile, powerful gun/Smite combo, hard to hurt, great blocker. Probably our second best unit.
I was very pro brigade to start with but when you realise that you can easily get up to 8 CP quite easily with 2x Battalions and some other +1 CP detachments brigades become less appealing. Though in any environment where you are limited to 3 detachments at most there is some merit in its use
DarknessEternal wrote: Why would you even care about Command Points in Eldar if you're playing tiny garbage squads?
Eldar stratagems are fairly terrible to begin with, and they're essentially pointless if you're not using them on quite large squads.
I pretty much agree with this.
If you are doing exarch spam eldar or any MSU style eldar you really don't care alot about stratagems. THe impact is just soooooo low that it really isn't worth the effort.
However if you go blobby eldar and give up some of your exarch advantage then you start to get some power from the stratagems.
Supreme distain on a +1 to hit storm guardian squad or Shining spear squad. Is some pretty big stuff.
Seer council becomes particularly good as it's really only worth it to bring warlocks if you have big melee units (or big units in general with protect). Otherwise you could just bring hemlocks for jinx and maaaaaaaybe reveal.
Forewarned is pretty good on a crimson hunter exarch who is at 2+ reroll 1's to hit, however this only works on inceptors or terminators. Big squads of dark reapers or a big squad of scatter bikes is where it's at for forwarned as most deep strikers are along the lines of genestealers and scions, and when you use forewarned you wanna use it to kill a squad.
Many of the other stratagems like webway/Celestial shield/ulthwe/ssaim-han/young king/phantasm/lightning fast reaction all really befit if you have big fat squads of stuff as the effect is considerably larger.
Then the others work equaly well with MSU or give big units a slight edge like Runes of Witness.
So you really don't need a whole lot of CP. The only places where you'd want alot is if you had large units, but even just having large units your only able to use each stratagem once per phase/turn and thus you reduce the possible CP spending per turn by alot, and even more so most of the good ones are melee focused (warlock buffs/supreme distain/Bieltan/Saim-han)
There's enough stuff to use without large squads. There is really only one stratagem for large squads and it's a melee one. You can always use at least 2 re-rolls per round (for psychic powers and multi damage), which is already 6 CP per game or so - and then there's Deny. You may want to DS one unit without transport, even something like 5 Dragons, you can cast extra Smite with Farseer for 1 CP every turn, use Reactions basically every turn, and some mobility card to reach "that objective over there" or move your units '7 away from enemy every turn. Prisms burn 1 CP every turn. In the actual games you burn through CP fast as Eldar.
Now to be fair most of the strategems you NEED to use are done by the end of Battleround 2. But late game sometimes you need those re rolls for saves or damage or even to interrupt the opponents Fight Phase when you know you will be wiped if he goes first with all his attacks. Even if you don't use them.....just the threat of it CAN keep him from charging you because he knows one of his Fights may work out horribly. I try to save 2 CP all game just for this if I'm facing off a CC army/characters.
10 CPs is about perfect. My lists normally give me only 8 CPs.
Shadenuat wrote:There's enough stuff to use without large squads. There is really only one stratagem for large squads and it's a melee one. You can always use at least 2 re-rolls per round (for psychic powers and multi damage), which is already 6 CP per game or so - and then there's Deny. You may want to DS one unit without transport, even something like 5 Dragons, you can cast extra Smite with Farseer for 1 CP every turn, use Reactions basically every turn, and some mobility card to reach "that objective over there" or move your units '7 away from enemy every turn. Prisms burn 1 CP every turn. In the actual games you burn through CP fast as Eldar.
admironheart wrote:I find what Shadenuat said is true.
Now to be fair most of the strategems you NEED to use are done by the end of Battleround 2. But late game sometimes you need those re rolls for saves or damage or even to interrupt the opponents Fight Phase when you know you will be wiped if he goes first with all his attacks. Even if you don't use them.....just the threat of it CAN keep him from charging you because he knows one of his Fights may work out horribly. I try to save 2 CP all game just for this if I'm facing off a CC army/characters.
10 CPs is about perfect. My lists normally give me only 8 CPs.
So okay most times you use a CP for damage it's worth about 2 damage or less. Lets say you use command points to reroll all of your 1 and 2 rolls on bright lances. Each CP would be worth on average 2 extra damage, and can get up to 2.5 if you only reroll 1's. Similarly the wave serpent stratagem, the far seer extra spell stratagem, and others are all basicly do 2 extra damage.
Even supreme disdain on a bunch of shining spears is about 2 extra damage.
However, if you start combing them they get alot better. So if i spend 3 boost the daamge of a shining spear squad i can do about an extra 10 damage, which is some big return on investment compared to normal CP use. Makign each CP do about 50% more damage than normal. SDimilar can be done with other big units if you combo them out.
I also agree you want to use a CP for every psyic phase, but the power of that CP goes down as turns go by. Doom on that knight is gonna be more relevant than doom on that remnants of a leman russ or something.
From there you have to consider your oppurtunity cost. Our troops our pretty bad. Rangers are nice becausethey don't die, but to an equal extent they also don't kill anything. Dire avengers have lack luster damage, while on the flip side guardians have lack luster range. Storm guardians can get combo'd up pretty hard, but the investment is just to large for you get out the other side.
So really you just want guardians and some rangers, but guardians don't do much if they just stay back and shoot who ever walked into range. So they need support from units like wave serpents that also don't put out a lot of damage. Overall it's eitehr super pointlesly frail stuff like guardians or dire avengers or durable stuff with no damage ion the form of ranger, which just doesn't feel good.
Which is taxing your list. 3 guardian squads/rangers is the difference between a hemlock or crimson hunter exarch in your list. I think one battalion is pretty nice to have. you definitly want atleast 20 guardians in your list to help deal with horde, and atleast 2 ranger squads if you care to defend against deep strikers, but doing more than that just feels really bad, and i fear you lose more than you gain in cp.
DarknessEternal wrote: Why would you even care about Command Points in Eldar if you're playing tiny garbage squads?
Eldar stratagems are fairly terrible to begin with, and they're essentially pointless if you're not using them on quite large squads.
I pretty much agree with this.
If you are doing exarch spam eldar or any MSU style eldar you really don't care alot about stratagems. THe impact is just soooooo low that it really isn't worth the effort.
However if you go blobby eldar and give up some of your exarch advantage then you start to get some power from the stratagems.
You can actually get the best of both worlds to a certain extent. For example:
ULTHWE BRIGADE
Farseer w/Guide, Doom
Spiritseer w/Quicken/Restrain, Faolchu's Wing (Warlord, Seer of the Shifting Vector)
Warlock w/Conceal/Reveal
20 Guardian Defenders w/2 Shuriken Cannons
2 x 8 Storm Guardians w/6 Chainswords, 2 Flamers
3 x 5 Rangers
5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw
3 Shadow Spectres
9 Shining Spears w/Exarch, Star Lance
5 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch, Hawk's Talon
3 Windriders
10 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher
2 x D-Cannon
Hemlock w/Jinx
2000pts
12CP
As far as Aeldari Brigades go, this is about as versatile a list as I can write in 2000pts. It has big, scary units of Reapers, Spears, and Defenders to make use of strategems and psychic buffs. It has Rangers to zone out enemy reinforcements. It has quick, little objective-grabbers like Hawks, Windriders, and (to a lesser extent) Scorpions. It has annoying midfield control from a pair of D-Cannons and the rapid response of the Banshees, Shadow Spectres, and (sort of) Storm Guardians. The Storm Guardians and the Spectres have 7 flame weapons between them for fending off hordes of squishy assault units and maybe the occasional aircraft. They ever-popular Hemlock performs its usual punishment through even more autohits and accentuating morale losses. You can also swap around the psychic powers to provide Mind War with a net 5 advantage (Hemlock -2 , Hawks +1, Embolden +2) if your opponent is dependent on a few key characters.
Does it have laser-focused efficiency and redundancy? No. Does it have the tools to implement an adequate solution to almost any enemy lists or set of mission parameters without having any obvious hard counters? Yes.
xmbk wrote:It's not just the extra damage from a reroll, it's the fact that you choose when it's tactically significant.
I mean yes but it's sort of also the same thing as saying you can chose who you shoot a bright lance at when its tactically significant. In the same way as the bright lance can miss the night lance van miss when you would have used the command point to do some extra damage. Or all your bright lances that do hit roll 5s and 6s and thus you cant spend the cp that turn.
Shadenuat wrote:Rending catapults are not a tax.
But if you think Eldar stratagems are bad, and troops (and transports for them) are bad, then you have the answer for your perfect list right there.
I said no such thing. I said that for the most part CP if used in average use are only worth 2 damage each. I contested that 1. CP if optimised for can be made to be worth 3 to 4 damage a piece. And 2. I contested that the units you exchange out aren't worth the extra 2 damage once per game that you get. For instance i'd rather bring a crimson hunter over two guardian squads with bright lances in the hope that my lists extra cp would make up the difference in list durabily and damage out put.
It's a balance you have to strike to get the most put of it, and that balance in my mind is 1 battalion plus 2 other detachments. Or about 8 cp. As 8 cp doing 3 or 4 damage a piece is worth about the same or more than 12 just doing 2 damage each. Which makes the 8 cp list the best because you aren't forced to compromise your army to do about the same damage.
Also the troop choice arnt bad per say they are just all snow flakes that need different amounts of support. Guardians either wanna be min in wave serpent or deep strikes in. Sore averengers do pretty low damage but have good range. Rangers are our best and only anti deep strike tool out side of forewarned, and storm guardians need alot of support.
Just because I'm not o the floor worshiping our troop choices doesn't mean they are bad. The point is out troops don't stand alonr. None of eldar does. It's all about interconnected news and strategy to multiple damage and durability to play competitively.
Just because I'm not o the floor worshiping our troop choices doesn't mean they are bad.
Our troops our pretty bad
I totally agree with you about the most efficient use and generation of CP, but yeah you did say this ^^
I think we have great troops compared to nearly all the other codex armies out there. Aside from IG, but they are awesome at everything. Maybe we pay a few extra points per model, but each choice has great utility. Even if its just 3 x 5 Rangers.
so, this may be the wrong place to ask....but since it is primarily Eldar related.
If I have put word for word some interesting GW published and Fan Published/Online content of Eldar Stories on Email Groups and the MMO forums in the past...and now would like to share them with this and other online forums.
A) will the copyright police carry me off even if they are listed to the Issue and author.
B) will the local forum mods chastise me and kick me off
C) Is there anyway to put them up online other than how I described that is acceptable.
I know that Scribd has a good deal of copyrighted content. And my Eldar Email group from way way before Dakka and EldarOnline were around has it. And the Eternal Crusade Forum allowed me to put a ton of old stuff in the forums.
Some of the stories come from the Doom of the Eldar, or Renegades from Epic. 2nd edition or RT sources, White Dwarves and then fan submitted work.
I just placed my Warp Spider fan fiction in the Fiction Forum. However some of the stuff about Knight Titans and the War In Heaven is interesting and could be beneficial to fellow hobbyists.
Should I just leave it alone?
Should I put a link to those other Forums/Email Site?
Just because I'm not o the floor worshiping our troop choices doesn't mean they are bad.
Our troops our pretty bad
I totally agree with you about the most efficient use and generation of CP, but yeah you did say this ^^
I think we have great troops compared to nearly all the other codex armies out there. Aside from IG, but they are awesome at everything. Maybe we pay a few extra points per model, but each choice has great utility. Even if its just 3 x 5 Rangers.
I think we have great troops compared to nearly all the other codex armies out there. Aside from IG, but they are awesome at everything.
Tyranids can make table clearing armies out of only Troops.
Nooooooooo you got me x.x. I do think they are pretty sub par. Guardian defenders and Ranger can do things, but compared to other armies they just don't cut the cake. When we look at guard man infantry squads or the durable of brim stones/poxwalkers/nurgling. Damage of blood letters, etc we just don't match that in terms of troops. Looking at a guardian defender they cost twice as much for +1bs +str on ranged attacks. Even worse when you can consider what AM players can do with order on thier squads getting damage and durability the guardians just don't come close to match, even with lots of help.
GSC cult infantry squads are better being +1pt guardianmen that can deep strike, or shoot from thier transport of choice. Primaris with thier reduced price are now very durable getting up to brimstone/imperial guard levels of durablity right now. While have a respectable AP that is never not useless/ long range/ 2+ save in cover they get abit silly quite quickly.
though saying they are worthless i guess would be an overstatement. I still think our best anti horde tools are hemlocks and guardians. While ranges can provide an important anti deep strike role in some list.
As far as how you can get so much out of your 3 CP. Shining spear geting buffed by a warlock's enhance (using CP to make sure the spell goes off), and then using supreme disdain, and the saim-han stratagem to get into melee (and reroll 1's). Will double thier damage out put against about every target. That one CP spent on the warlock could have also been seer council so that the same farseer could have either doomed a target or guided the shining spears. That said i usualy don't have to spend the CP as my enhance warlock usually takes the biel-tan relic to reroll failed test.
admironheart wrote:so, this may be the wrong place to ask....but since it is primarily Eldar related.
If I have put word for word some interesting GW published and Fan Published/Online content of Eldar Stories on Email Groups and the MMO forums in the past...and now would like to share them with this and other online forums.
A) will the copyright police carry me off even if they are listed to the Issue and author.
B) will the local forum mods chastise me and kick me off
C) Is there anyway to put them up online other than how I described that is acceptable.
I know that Scribd has a good deal of copyrighted content. And my Eldar Email group from way way before Dakka and EldarOnline were around has it. And the Eternal Crusade Forum allowed me to put a ton of old stuff in the forums.
Some of the stories come from the Doom of the Eldar, or Renegades from Epic. 2nd edition or RT sources, White Dwarves and then fan submitted work.
I just placed my Warp Spider fan fiction in the Fiction Forum. However some of the stuff about Knight Titans and the War In Heaven is interesting and could be beneficial to fellow hobbyists.
Should I just leave it alone?
Should I put a link to those other Forums/Email Site?
as long as you are not making money off the idea you can literally do waht ever you want. You'd be even safer with a disclaimer saying it is fan made. What ever you post i'd be excited to see. I love reading fan stuff. I tend to write fiction for all my armies. Currently i'm writing a fiction about my eldar army. They are a craftworld trapped inside a time bubble in the warp. They have warlocks and rangers who wonder the galaxy looking for pivotal events, and they open up portals that bridge the gap between the craft world and the real world, and they send out fast strike teams they get thier job done quickly, and fast enough that they can make it back through the portal before it closes.
I think we have great troops compared to nearly all the other codex armies out there. Aside from IG, but they are awesome at everything.
Tyranids can make table clearing armies out of only Troops.
Not only that, chaos has table clearing troops on the form of Khorne Berzerkers, depending on your legion. Dire Avengers are on a similar page to your basic Tactical Marine (thier improved mobility and medium range abilities make them a bit more desirable, but still fairly mediocre), and Guardians are too costly to hold up as a horde, yet too weak to function with small investment. Rangers are good, but I wouldn't say they're great, especially compared to the other codex armies.
Eldar troops are inferior to Nids and IG. The codex lacks the internal balance of those other 2, and troops are part of that. I think Nids set the bar, especially with the balance between their faction choices.
That said, top Eldar builds can hang with anyone. If anything other than Reapers get nerfed without some corresponding buffs it would suck for Eldar. Hopefully GW will adjust all the factions this time next year, to make each army more interesting. Doesn't sell models though, so...
mmimzie wrote: as long as you are not making money off the idea you can literally do waht ever you want. You'd be even safer with a disclaimer saying it is fan made. What ever you post i'd be excited to see. I love reading fan stuff. I tend to write fiction for all my armies. Currently i'm writing a fiction about my eldar army. They are a craftworld trapped inside a time bubble in the warp. They have warlocks and rangers who wonder the galaxy looking for pivotal events, and they open up portals that bridge the gap between the craft world and the real world, and they send out fast strike teams they get thier job done quickly, and fast enough that they can make it back through the portal before it closes.
Ok so this is a sample. Like I said some is fan fiction, some are WD or GW rule book writings.
from the excerpt from the Epic Cycle, "the dance of the Battle for
Heaven"
published by GW Battle for Heaven
Once, before the count of time, before the ending of what was.
Once, before the great divide, we lived in homes of wood.
Once, when all were one, we hunted and ploughed with tools of stone,
But
the Laughing god, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he took pity upon his people,because he loved them
and he taught them the song of building and, the dance of the
Wraithbone. But
Khaine, the bloody handed, discovered what had occurred
Khaine, with battle lust, attacked the laughing god
Khaine, of the flashing eyes, tore heaven, hearth and seam, but
The Laughing God, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he danced and be dove, because he was ashamed and Khaine in his rage:
threatened the home of the gods,
and the vault of the heavens, So
Asuryan, who is king, communed with fate
Asuryan, whose word is law, declared his will,
Asuryan, who rules from a belly, enforced a peace. But
The Laughing god, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he did not trust Khaine,
because Khaine's nature is cruel.
So the Laughing god in his wisdom sang a song of creation, and danced
a
dance of soul binding. So
Endobai, eagle of heaven, was created,
Endobai, who never sleeps, and sees forever,
Endobai, who guards his master while he sleeps. And
The Laughing God, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he loved his creation, because they were as one.
together they hunted, and they ran and all heaven was at peace.
except Khaine, who waited. Until
Slaanesh, consuming heaven, devoured all the living gods,
Slaanesh, who is Chaos, scattered Khaine,
Slaanesh, who is (but is not), stood to conquer all. But
The Laughing God, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he challenged the beast,
and they fought for a thousand years.
and Endobai pecked and clawed, while the Laughing god's spear
danced ,
and Slaanesh screamed and wailed. Until, exhausted,
The Laughing god, was bested and
Slaanesh bent to consume him.
Khaine, in a thousand parts, wailed for all was lost. But
Endobai, eagle of heaven, stepped between and was consumed.
The Laughing God, escaped to the web that is eternal, and
Slaanesh was thwarted.
Khaine, in a thousand parts, smiled for all was not lost, and
Endobai, who sees forever, pecks at the gizzard of Slaanesh for
eternity,
and the Laughing god, lives forever.
the end
mmimzie wrote: as long as you are not making money off the idea you can literally do waht ever you want. You'd be even safer with a disclaimer saying it is fan made. What ever you post i'd be excited to see. I love reading fan stuff. I tend to write fiction for all my armies. Currently i'm writing a fiction about my eldar army. They are a craftworld trapped inside a time bubble in the warp. They have warlocks and rangers who wonder the galaxy looking for pivotal events, and they open up portals that bridge the gap between the craft world and the real world, and they send out fast strike teams they get thier job done quickly, and fast enough that they can make it back through the portal before it closes.
Ok so this is a sample. Like I said some is fan fiction, some are WD or GW rule book writings.
Spoiler:
from the excerpt from the Epic Cycle, "the dance of the Battle for
Heaven"
published by GW Battle for Heaven
Once, before the count of time, before the ending of what was.
Once, before the great divide, we lived in homes of wood.
Once, when all were one, we hunted and ploughed with tools of stone,
But
the Laughing god, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he took pity upon his people,because he loved them
and he taught them the song of building and, the dance of the
Wraithbone. But
Khaine, the bloody handed, discovered what had occurred
Khaine, with battle lust, attacked the laughing god
Khaine, of the flashing eyes, tore heaven, hearth and seam, but
The Laughing God, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he danced and be dove, because he was ashamed and Khaine in his rage:
threatened the home of the gods,
and the vault of the heavens, So
Asuryan, who is king, communed with fate
Asuryan, whose word is law, declared his will,
Asuryan, who rules from a belly, enforced a peace. But
The Laughing god, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he did not trust Khaine,
because Khaine's nature is cruel.
So the Laughing god in his wisdom sang a song of creation, and danced
a
dance of soul binding. So
Endobai, eagle of heaven, was created,
Endobai, who never sleeps, and sees forever,
Endobai, who guards his master while he sleeps. And
The Laughing God, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he loved his creation, because they were as one.
together they hunted, and they ran and all heaven was at peace.
except Khaine, who waited. Until
Slaanesh, consuming heaven, devoured all the living gods,
Slaanesh, who is Chaos, scattered Khaine,
Slaanesh, who is (but is not), stood to conquer all. But
The Laughing God, whose name may now never be spoken, even in a
whisper,
he challenged the beast,
and they fought for a thousand years.
and Endobai pecked and clawed, while the Laughing god's spear
danced ,
and Slaanesh screamed and wailed. Until, exhausted,
The Laughing god, was bested and
Slaanesh bent to consume him.
Khaine, in a thousand parts, wailed for all was lost. But
Endobai, eagle of heaven, stepped between and was consumed.
The Laughing God, escaped to the web that is eternal, and
Slaanesh was thwarted.
Khaine, in a thousand parts, smiled for all was not lost, and
Endobai, who sees forever, pecks at the gizzard of Slaanesh for
eternity,
and the Laughing god, lives forever.
the end
Take this to General. This thread is for Tactics, not fluff...
I run normally either 3 10 man dire squads or 6-5 man dire squads, each with exarch with dual catapults. Are they snowflakes? Yeah, but if the enemy is shooting them then are not shooting my reapers or warwalkers or banshees, you get the point. Sometimes the lack of strength can be a strength.
Not trying to say that dires are the best evah, I agree they are in tactical range, but overwatch on 5's, rending, their catapults are better than ig lasguns.
Azuza001 wrote: I run normally either 3 10 man dire squads or 6-5 man dire squads, each with exarch with dual catapults. Are they snowflakes? Yeah, but if the enemy is shooting them then are not shooting my reapers or warwalkers or banshees, you get the point. Sometimes the lack of strength can be a strength.
Not trying to say that dires are the best evah, I agree they are in tactical range, but overwatch on 5's, rending, their catapults are better than ig lasguns.
That's interesting, so your big Dire Avenger units act as distraction carnifex type units in a way because they are 120pts or so they are a tempting target to shoot up. I think I'm going to have to try running them in this role and see how they go.
Yep. And they do a good job of it too, if my opponent does ignore them then they help get and hold objectives. And honestly, 12 shots at 18" for 64 pts is pretty good if I go with 6 squads of 5. And you can put any scarry shots onto the exarch for his 4+ invulnerable first to try and take hits. Finally their rending ability can come in handy, they do a good job of dealing with other small squads / cleanup when you really want to finish that one guy off who survived the reapers or something else.
Got my first game in with eldar and beat an admech tourney list.
Only reason i won was psycic powers. So for those more experienced than me, can eldar win with just autarchs for hqs?
Has anyone tried that?
I did the same as above. Deployed two da squads and let him wreck them. Only lost 248 pts first turn then i killed a kastellan squad and 2 grav destroyers.
Its true horrify can be cast on a morale boosting character to work across multiple squads of Gaurdsmen. However, we are probably talking about Commisars, right?
Ive not seen a single one of those used since the nerf, and I see a fair bit of IG
He is in no way being an A$$ hole... I just love that quote. lol
I don't rub guide much or at all. My arm is a big death ball that zooms all over the table with an autarch and far seer at its heart. Guide seems pretty lack luster if you are already refilling 1s on everything.
Puganaut wrote: Do we reckon executioner is worthwhile? I'm thinking doom + executioner could be useful
In my experience Executioner is only superior to Smite some of the time, and usually not by that much, so if you've only got one Farseer you can probably get away with just using smite when needed.
I think were it can be useful is if you take a second Farseer for the purposes of mortal wound spam. For only 10 points more than 2 spiritseers, you can have a farseer who pumps out smite and executioner each turn instead. Runes of the Farseer is extremely powerful in the context of these powers, helping to secure the 7 Warp charge you need for executioner, or the full D6 smite. You also get a second RoF utility power of your choice in case you don't want/can't use the mortal wounds that turn. I wouldn't call a smite Farseer better than 2 spiritseers for the points, but its comparable at least and you're perhaps less likely to be labelled as a spammer in casual games!
I run a Doom/Executioner Farseer with Beil tan relic. He's pretty useful. If I cast Doom and Executioner, and still have my runes of the Farseer up, it's often worth popping a strategem for a follow up Smite, fishing for D6 mortals.
Karhedron wrote: I like Doom and Mind War. The ability to snipe characters can be handy, particularly if combined with a Hemlock and/or Swooping Hawks.
A cheeky Embolden can help Mind War too, even from a Warlock because it effectively restores them to full Smite damage output, and with Seer Council it has the same chance of success. In fact, a Farseer intending to cast Smite, Executioner, and Mind War with Unparalleled Mastery each turn is probably my favourite use for Seer Council. You can add Seer of the Shifting Vector and the Ghostghelm of Alishazier to make the powers that much more reliable/scary.
Incognito15 wrote: Got my first game in with eldar and beat an admech tourney list.
I did the same as above. Deployed two da squads and let him wreck them. Only lost 248 pts first turn then i killed a kastellan squad and 2 grav destroyers.
Not knocking your win, but those two bolded items seem to contradict one another. Tourney AdMech do not run any Destroyers. Ever. They are absolute garbage.
As far as psychic powers go - I tend towards doom and executioner. Especially with the beta rules its nice to have access to non smite Mortal Wound generators and against any one wound per model unit its a guaranteed 2D3.
Incognito15 wrote: Got my first game in with eldar and beat an admech tourney list.
I did the same as above. Deployed two da squads and let him wreck them. Only lost 248 pts first turn then i killed a kastellan squad and 2 grav destroyers.
Not knocking your win, but those two bolded items seem to contradict one another. Tourney AdMech do not run any Destroyers. Ever. They are absolute garbage.
I would love to see what you think is a tourney admech list. The list has so much dakka and reroll bubbles its a nasty list.
I did biel tan so guide i thought was pointless. I took doom (amazing) and fortune(was meh). Took two warlocks one with conceal/reveal (shroudsalm counter) and protect jinx. Jinx being against ALL saving throws made it possible to kill kastellans. That power was amazing.
Incognito15 wrote: Got my first game in with eldar and beat an admech tourney list.
I did the same as above. Deployed two da squads and let him wreck them. Only lost 248 pts first turn then i killed a kastellan squad and 2 grav destroyers.
Not knocking your win, but those two bolded items seem to contradict one another. Tourney AdMech do not run any Destroyers. Ever. They are absolute garbage.
I would love to see what you think is a tourney admech list. The list has so much dakka and reroll bubbles its a nasty list.
I did biel tan so guide i thought was pointless. I took doom (amazing) and fortune(was meh). Took two warlocks one with conceal/reveal (shroudsalm counter) and protect jinx. Jinx being against ALL saving throws made it possible to kill kastellans. That power was amazing.
Usually it is Cawl + 5 Wrathbots and 2 or 3 Neutronagers and possibly a Goondozer, plus a Battalion of Cadians - usually with CP recycling Commanders, Infantry Squads w/ Mortars, and Bassies.
Just because i take a weirdboy with mortarian and magnus doesnt make me orcs.
Back to it though, i think a farseer is mandatory. Curious if people run a warlock conclave how many is the sweet spot? I was thinking of running 2 groups of 5. Didnt know what others ran.
From there i love fortune, but as you know i run big squads fo shining spears and i have a crimson hunter and a wave serpent i can cast it on. Usualy i suicide run in my shining spears to delete targets that can kill my hemlock/crimson hunter/2x weve serpents, and then my late game is those 4 things flying in formations with my farseer and autarch in the middle picking stuff off.
I could see executioner being good , but having it go off on a 7 and having it be abit target stricted, make it abit meh. Even more so if you only have 1 or even just 2 guys smiting, or your other smiters are warlocks.
Just because i take a weirdboy with mortarian and magnus doesnt make me orcs.
Back to it though, i think a farseer is mandatory. Curious if people run a warlock conclave how many is the sweet spot? I was thinking of running 2 groups of 5. Didnt know what others ran.
AdMech is like half a faction, bud. If we don't take Guard, we don't have the tools to actually be competitive. So ya, that is AdMech in 8th - take it from someone who uses them as their primary faction.
Anyone running Kataphrons at all is not playing a competitive list - period.
That being said, Alaitoc is a nightmare for AdMech of any variety because it hurts Robots - even with Cawl's re-rolls. And those do a lot of the heavy lifting for the faction, so mitigating them fast is a good idea.
Just because i take a weirdboy with mortarian and magnus doesnt make me orcs.
Back to it though, i think a farseer is mandatory. Curious if people run a warlock conclave how many is the sweet spot? I was thinking of running 2 groups of 5. Didnt know what others ran.
I tried the conclave recently. I don't like it. I prefer just loan warlocks, as you get more spells for your buck, and they are characters which can make them very tough to take out. In my shining spear list right now i run 4.
The conclave not being a character makes them too squishy and increase thier prive by requiring 4 spots in a wave serpent. Meaning you now must bring a serpent that doesn't have guardian defenders or wraithguard/blades in it.
One thing that does look interesting on paper is 7 warlocks webwaying in as a sucidie bomb squad. Have them quicken themselves, and either cast jinx on an enemy, or if you ahve a hemlock for that have them enhance themselves. Then ahve them use thier D6 smite (before or after move tohit the best target). Give them supreme distain in the fight phase for 14 2+/2+ -1ap attacks that explode on 5's. they probably won't do better than shining spears, but they are very self contained. Haven't tried it but i keep thinking about the idea lol.
Just because i take a weirdboy with mortarian and magnus doesnt make me orcs.
Back to it though, i think a farseer is mandatory. Curious if people run a warlock conclave how many is the sweet spot? I was thinking of running 2 groups of 5. Didnt know what others ran.
AdMech is like half a faction, bud. If we don't take Guard, we don't have the tools to actually be competitive. So ya, that is AdMech in 8th - take it from someone who uses them as their primary faction.
Anyone running Kataphrons at all is not playing a competitive list - period.
That being said, Alaitoc is a nightmare for AdMech of any variety because it hurts Robots - even with Cawl's re-rolls. And those do a lot of the heavy lifting for the faction, so mitigating them fast is a good idea.
the most aggresive admech i know runs something like a 9 man bot list that deep strikes in, and them instantly squad protocols to double tap mode being within 12" they dopn't care about -1 to hit at all. They also deep strike in a big squad of dragoons. There's more too it but i can't really remember the rest, but that is a pretty scary force, as they kind of cut out alot of your best stuff early on. Taht said rangers can tame some of that.
the most aggresive admech i know runs something like a 9 man bot list that deep strikes in, and them instantly squad protocols to double tap mode being within 12" they dopn't care about -1 to hit at all. They also deep strike in a big squad of dragoons. There's more too it but i can't really remember the rest, but that is a pretty scary force, as they kind of cut out alot of your best stuff early on. Taht said rangers can tame some of that.
That list sounds awful. Putting your Robots into double-tap via Override means they are not moving ever again and are now within 12" of your opponent's entire army, which is the absolute worst case scenario. So really, they will get locked out of shooting by just about any CC unit after their single round of shooting. And without Cawl there to help via re-rolls and with the penalty for Deep Striking putting them at a 5+ to-hit, what are they really going to do? Not a whole lot. What a spectacular waste of 660pt.
the most aggresive admech i know runs something like a 9 man bot list that deep strikes in, and them instantly squad protocols to double tap mode being within 12" they dopn't care about -1 to hit at all. They also deep strike in a big squad of dragoons. There's more too it but i can't really remember the rest, but that is a pretty scary force, as they kind of cut out alot of your best stuff early on. Taht said rangers can tame some of that.
That list sounds awful. Putting your Robots into double-tap via Override means they are not moving ever again and are now within 12" of your opponent's entire army, which is the absolute worst case scenario. So really, they will get locked out of shooting by just about any CC unit after their single round of shooting. And without Cawl there to help via re-rolls and with the penalty for Deep Striking putting them at a 5+ to-hit, what are they really going to do? Not a whole lot. What a spectacular waste of 660pt.
Or since in competive play most armies get tabled one 1 or 2 turns. Or most of the big threats are removed i n that much time.... it's quite possible the double tapping robots kill all the threats to them. Along woth the other 1400 pts of your army.
Just because your stuff dies or gets tied up, or just because you throw away units doesn't mean you lose. Of those units that you throw away mean the rest of your army has nothing else to fear from what where your remaining enemies list.
Plus the unit can have up to like 6 12" range double tapping heavy flamers. I'd only bring make 3... but that's still 6 heavy flamers worth of pain. Not to mention the prosper also double tapping so many high strength shots. Even a 9 man squad of shining spears would struggle to get 2 models into base contact... that much just end up dying to a kastelan stomping it to death.
That's all also assuming the robot player didn't just decide to use the double tap to kill any units that it couldn't just kill in overwatch... because the shooting from that unit is so strong It can just tell you yo pick up models.
Anyway. I didn't say it was meta breaking. It obviously isn't because it hasn't won any really big tournaments. I was merely stating those are the best things mechanics can do.
the most aggresive admech i know runs something like a 9 man bot list that deep strikes in, and them instantly squad protocols to double tap mode being within 12" they dopn't care about -1 to hit at all. They also deep strike in a big squad of dragoons. There's more too it but i can't really remember the rest, but that is a pretty scary force, as they kind of cut out alot of your best stuff early on. Taht said rangers can tame some of that.
That list sounds awful. Putting your Robots into double-tap via Override means they are not moving ever again and are now within 12" of your opponent's entire army, which is the absolute worst case scenario. So really, they will get locked out of shooting by just about any CC unit after their single round of shooting. And without Cawl there to help via re-rolls and with the penalty for Deep Striking putting them at a 5+ to-hit, what are they really going to do? Not a whole lot. What a spectacular waste of 660pt.
Or since in competive play most armies get tabled one 1 or 2 turns. Or most of the big threats are removed i n that much time.... it's quite possible the double tapping robots kill all the threats to them. Along woth the other 1400 pts of your army.
Just because your stuff dies or gets tied up, or just because you throw away units doesn't mean you lose. Of those units that you throw away mean the rest of your army has nothing else to fear from what where your remaining enemies list.
Plus the unit can have up to like 6 12" range double tapping heavy flamers. I'd only bring make 3... but that's still 6 heavy flamers worth of pain. Not to mention the prosper also double tapping so many high strength shots. Even a 9 man squad of shining spears would struggle to get 2 models into base contact... that much just end up dying to a kastelan stomping it to death.
That's all also assuming the robot player didn't just decide to use the double tap to kill any units that it couldn't just kill in overwatch... because the shooting from that unit is so strong It can just tell you yo pick up models.
Anyway. I didn't say it was meta breaking. It obviously isn't because it hasn't won any really big tournaments. I was merely stating those are the best things mechanics can do.
I'm sorry, but this is just silly. Your double-tapping Robots Deep Striking in with no re-rolls and hitting on 5's isn't going to even earn back their points, let alone wipe out 1400pt. And when your main investment - the Robots - gets tied up in combat, you are losing. Because that is a third of your army tied up and not doing what they are supposed to be doing. And no one brings the Flamers - they are hands down worse.
Good god, look, you don't play AdMech - I can tell - so take it from a veteran player who does, please. This is all just you theoryhammering a way to justify a bad strategy/list.
I was merely stating those are the best things mechanics can do.
And I am telling you that you are incorrect. To end this derailing the CWE thread, take it over to the AdMech Tactica - where I know a handful of us AdMech folks will gladly explain what competitive AdMech is and why/how it works, etc.
the most aggresive admech i know runs something like a 9 man bot list that deep strikes in, and them instantly squad protocols to double tap mode being within 12" they dopn't care about -1 to hit at all. They also deep strike in a big squad of dragoons. There's more too it but i can't really remember the rest, but that is a pretty scary force, as they kind of cut out alot of your best stuff early on. Taht said rangers can tame some of that.
That list sounds awful. Putting your Robots into double-tap via Override means they are not moving ever again and are now within 12" of your opponent's entire army, which is the absolute worst case scenario. So really, they will get locked out of shooting by just about any CC unit after their single round of shooting. And without Cawl there to help via re-rolls and with the penalty for Deep Striking putting them at a 5+ to-hit, what are they really going to do? Not a whole lot. What a spectacular waste of 660pt.
Or since in competive play most armies get tabled one 1 or 2 turns. Or most of the big threats are removed i n that much time.... it's quite possible the double tapping robots kill all the threats to them. Along woth the other 1400 pts of your army.
Just because your stuff dies or gets tied up, or just because you throw away units doesn't mean you lose. Of those units that you throw away mean the rest of your army has nothing else to fear from what where your remaining enemies list.
Plus the unit can have up to like 6 12" range double tapping heavy flamers. I'd only bring make 3... but that's still 6 heavy flamers worth of pain. Not to mention the prosper also double tapping so many high strength shots. Even a 9 man squad of shining spears would struggle to get 2 models into base contact... that much just end up dying to a kastelan stomping it to death.
That's all also assuming the robot player didn't just decide to use the double tap to kill any units that it couldn't just kill in overwatch... because the shooting from that unit is so strong It can just tell you yo pick up models.
Anyway. I didn't say it was meta breaking. It obviously isn't because it hasn't won any really big tournaments. I was merely stating those are the best things mechanics can do.
I'm sorry, but this is just silly. Your double-tapping Robots Deep Striking in with no re-rolls and hitting on 5's isn't going to even earn back their points, let alone wipe out 1400pt. And when your main investment - the Robots - gets tied up in combat, you are losing. Because that is a third of your army tied up and not doing what they are supposed to be doing. And no one brings the Flamers - they are hands down worse.
Good god, look, you don't play AdMech - I can tell - so take it from a veteran player who does, please. This is all just you theoryhammering a way to justify a bad strategy/list.
I was merely stating those are the best things mechanics can do.
And I am telling you that you are incorrect. To end this derailing the CWE thread, take it over to the AdMech Tactica - where I know a handful of us AdMech folks will gladly explain what competitive AdMech is and why/how it works, etc.
First calm down. When i said 1400pts i meant thier are the other ~1400pts of the mechanicus list left over. Not that the robots are gonna kill 1400pts of stuff. (this one missunder standing is the whole sum of your anger in your post.)
The robots don';t have to kill thier points, they justh ave to kill or your army has justh as to kil lwaht ever is gonna tie them up (or that can survive the over watch). The flamers are bad if you aren't deep striking your robot squad, but if you do 3 out of the 6 taking flamers is actualy pretty good when you double tap them. Even moe so if you are going to be overwatching quite soon as you said.
I do also play mechanicus, but not competively.,.. because they aren't that. The times i've seen them at tournaments and i've cared they were on the table was because they brought that doom drop squads, and the one time ireally cared was when they also had the dragoons there, becuase that meants i had two high impact units i needed to deal with.
Literally nothing else the mechanicus can do really matters to the eldar because they just don't have good tools, and all our best stuff hemlocks/crimson hunters/shining speers/dark reapers/wave serpents love being accross the table from mechanicus. It's like a free win.
Calm down? Trust me, I'm fine. Just watching someone move the goalposts a bit on the topic and directing you to the Tactica where the competitive AdMech players can correct your assertions.
And folks here need to know what to actually look for - which is nothing at all what you posted. At all. While the list I posted is pretty much the go-to competitive AdMech list.
For Eldar folks looking to kill AdMech - knock out the Robots. Everything else should be a breeze after that. Reapers will make pretty quick work of them with Starshot, for sure. Shining Spears as well. Just shoot and then go for CC, where the Robots don't get an invuln and won't get an armor save either.
Getting waaaaaay off topic here. Pee already suggested moving this topic (that he's entirely right about, by the way) over to the actual Admech thread.
The Eldar v Admech matchup isn't really worth putting too much thought into, since Admech is mostly pretty crap. Eldar mobility means that you can put just about anything into combat with a Kastelan squad to nullify it for the entire game, Alaitoc murders a lot of Admech shooting options, and Dark Reapers exist. Dragoons are funky, but can't save an army on their own. Just rush their lines with a few Spears to disrupt the gunline, and then go to town with everything else.
Which is the point. Aside from suprize robot clown fiesta eldar don't care. So when you are eldar fighting a 'competive' admech list that's the scariest thing you'll race.
Which Mr. Per has pointed out the various depths of in effectualness they can achive.
Edit: and I think dragons a companying that robot threat could cause problems, as your want to eliminate both or else you might find yourself trapped between a taser lance and a robo.
Again though all our best stuff has no trouble killing said units.
And Doom usually takes a back seat to Smite after turn 1. After that, everything's on top of me and most of my army is dead anyway (thanks 8th edition) that my biggest sources of offense are Smite spam.
mmimzie wrote: Which is the point. Aside from suprize robot clown fiesta eldar don't care. So when you are eldar fighting a 'competive' admech list that's the scariest thing you'll race.
Which Mr. Per has pointed out the various depths of in effectualness they can achive.
Edit: and I think dragons a companying that robot threat could cause problems, as your want to eliminate both or else you might find yourself trapped between a taser lance and a robo.
Again though all our best stuff has no trouble killing said units.
The Dragoons have a less than 50% chance of charging after the Deep strike. I'd ignore them and smash the Robots. Shining Spears will do this with ease. Then they can wreck the Dragoons at their leisure.
Ever Since 2nd Edition Mind War has always been my fave power for the Eldar.
I must say that I have to shelve it when I play 8th. The Fact that it ONLY works vs characters makes it tedious at best and in some games there are no enemy characters in play that you can use it on.
If it could be used vs any model then that would be cool.
And Doom usually takes a back seat to Smite after turn 1. After that, everything's on top of me and most of my army is dead anyway (thanks 8th edition) that my biggest sources of offense are Smite spam.
Almost never my experience - doom does way more damage than a single smite.
mmimzie wrote: Which is the point. Aside from suprize robot clown fiesta eldar don't care. So when you are eldar fighting a 'competive' admech list that's the scariest thing you'll race.
Which Mr. Per has pointed out the various depths of in effectualness they can achive.
Edit: and I think dragons a companying that robot threat could cause problems, as your want to eliminate both or else you might find yourself trapped between a taser lance and a robo.
Again though all our best stuff has no trouble killing said units.
The Dragoons have a less than 50% chance of charging after the Deep strike. I'd ignore them and smash the Robots. Shining Spears will do this with ease. Then they can wreck the Dragoons at their leisure.
Your statement is a little far fetched. 7 shining spears cost the same as 2 Kastellans. (roughly) They do 4.6 hits in shooting which is .92 wounds. If failed on 4+ inv (and not reflected 17% of time) you do 2 damage.
Average losing a bike on overwatch but we will ignore this.
Then 14 attacks in close combat = 9.24 hits =1.8 wounds = 1.5 going through on average after 6+ save. Thats 50/50 on even killing one.
You are assuming a lot in that your shining spears will mop up the kastellans.
They don't have to mop them up. Simply locking them in combat is enough to cripple them, since they cannot move or fight back. You just need to complete the charge.
Fafnir wrote: They don't have to mop them up. Simply locking them in combat is enough to cripple them, since they cannot move or fight back. You just need to complete the charge.
It's msotly this. It's really if you can survive the over watch with enough stuff that can then survive a few kastelans attacking. Note if the kastelenans are gonna go double tap mode there is no reason not to just have all the robots touching eachotehr as best they can <.< so even if one model is in range you are facing 3 or 4 kastelans worth of melee attacks coming your way. So you need enough spear then to live the over watch and survive 4 kastelans worth of punches to the face.
As has been states it's not realy the combat or thjings dying that matter you just need stuff that can stay in combat with the kastelan unit after it goes into shooter mode.
However, i posit that the kastelans and the other 1300-1400pts of the admech force could ideally target down any units that could survive the kastelan over watch such that this issue doesn't exist, and seeing as most Eldar out side of shining spears run alot of MSU the only threats to this happening are big packs of shining spears and wave serpents. So the goal is kill all serepents (or deep strike as far from them as possible). Then kill all big shining spear squads. Out side of that the kastelans probably won't be locked in combat as the big bot units overwatch would be to overwelming for pretty much anything else (including also having to contend with 3 or 4 robot melee attacks)
Incognito15 wrote: Not if one has fists then your losing 2 bikes a turn.
Was just pointing out though that your not just going to delete a Kastellan squad. They are tough suckers.
But fistalens are terrible in their own right, and even worse when mixed with dakkabots. That's 115+ points of dead weight.
And that fistalen is only killing two models a turn if it's using the combat protocol, which then nullifies your dakkabots, so now you've got 220-550 points of dead weight. No matter how you cut it, the fistalen is a terrible investment, and the kastelans are just not a threat. It's far to easy to nullify a 600+ point unit with less than 100 points of models.
I don’t think his initial calculations took into account the improved strength from laser lances on charge either.
Should be 15 attacks in melee, hitting on 3s for 10 hits, wounding on 5s due to strength 6 v tough 7 for about 3 and a third wounds, or about 6 damage.
Further: why are 4.6 hits of str 6 translating to .98 wounds when you wound on 5s? 1/3 of 4.6 is around 1.5, not .98
Am I missing something?
Smart AdMech players are going to castle against any fly-heavy army, so don't count on being able to neutralize the Kastelans in CC that easily.
Also, someone mentioned deep-striking 9x Kastelans in. This is a terrible idea for all of the reasons stated, but also because you can't Binharic Override twice in a turn.
I think with Doom, the only issue is maximising value. I've tried bursting down big targets, and while they die right quick, I feel like I've almost lost value since only one or two units have had a chance?
Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences
Puganaut wrote: Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences
Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+
So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.
At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.
Puganaut wrote: Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences
Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+
So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.
At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.
There's an interesting wrinkle that happens with those calculations if you're talking about Shuriken weapons, too!
Guardians, for example, are a great way to benefit from Doom by shooting at higher toughness, because when wounding on a 5+, 50% of your successful wounds will also be bladestorm wounds. When doom is applied, it increases your chances to wound, without decreasing the chance that a successful wound will also be a bladestorm wound.
Take 40 guardian shots: Assume odds that 27 hit on average. Wounding on a 5+, you're looking at ~9w, with ~4.5 of those wounds as bladestorm. With Doom, that goes up to ~15w, of which ~7.5 are bladestorm.
Compare that to wounding on 4's with no doom (50% success rate, so close to the 55% with doom on a 5+), where you'd get ~13.5 total wounds, but only an average of ~4.5 bladestorm wounds.
You said it. Players who want to stay back and use the '48 range do not like Tempest. It compromises the design of the unit. I generally agree with that.
I see many reports where people place DRs on some high tower in a sorta beautiful roleplaying way. In one of them they even got charged turn 1 by flying unit.
Reapers should stay '48 away even if it means ducking in the corner near the end of the table. Or begin in Webway/WS.
Puganaut wrote: Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences
Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+
So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.
At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.
There's an interesting wrinkle that happens with those calculations if you're talking about Shuriken weapons, too!
Guardians, for example, are a great way to benefit from Doom by shooting at higher toughness, because when wounding on a 5+, 50% of your successful wounds will also be bladestorm wounds. When doom is applied, it increases your chances to wound, without decreasing the chance that a successful wound will also be a bladestorm wound.
Take 40 guardian shots: Assume odds that 27 hit on average. Wounding on a 5+, you're looking at ~9w, with ~4.5 of those wounds as bladestorm. With Doom, that goes up to ~15w, of which ~7.5 are bladestorm.
Compare that to wounding on 4's with no doom (50% success rate, so close to the 55% with doom on a 5+), where you'd get ~13.5 total wounds, but only an average of ~4.5 bladestorm wounds.
Cheers guys! Pretty interesting stuff, I'll be sure to give it a go. My personal take away is to just abuse doom as much as possible, keeping in mind it'll improve to wound by about 25% ish. I guess the toss up is that if your entire army is firing on a doom target, the entire army has effectively improved shooting by that margin vs no doom, however that's not always achievable.
I think 2 farseers may be a sweet spot, and focussing the targets. Killing a pair of priority targets a turn is usually pretty devastating, EG two russes, a big blob, etc etc. 3 for consistency at 2000+ might also be a consideration. Cheers all!
Ive been running dark reapers quite a bit and my experience may not be good as some but i find the big squad which you webway in performs better either with a standard launcher or the ELM for the mortal wound stratagem. The range on the tempest launcher lets it down and you can keep out of range of most weapons with fire and fade.
I think running minimum squads with tempest launcher is the way forward, i only have 10 reapers at the moment and im reluctant to buy more until March comes around due to the nerf. Im going to proxy next game and give it a go with 2 min squads.
For those of you who suggest that the dark reaper exarch are ablative wounds like a Devestator unit with some bolter marines.
You may want to choose the Shuriken Cannon as his weapon. If your going to kill him it is only a 15 point model at that point rather than a 27 or 30 point or even more.
ryzouken wrote: I don’t think his initial calculations took into account the improved strength from laser lances on charge either.
Should be 15 attacks in melee, hitting on 3s for 10 hits, wounding on 5s due to strength 6 v tough 7 for about 3 and a third wounds, or about 6 damage.
Further: why are 4.6 hits of str 6 translating to .98 wounds when you wound on 5s? 1/3 of 4.6 is around 1.5, not .98
Am I missing something?
Saves.
Besides dark reapers (i dont own any atm and they are back ordered) what are our go to anti tank? Lot of astra mil in my area and it gets costly when im paying for wave serpents and a fire dragon or wraithguard. So is crimson hunter or fire prims our best? “Deep striking” war walkers?
It increases yoyr damage by yoyr miss chance. So if you wound on a 4+ Then that means you boost your average damage by 50% competitively. Comparatively if you would on a 5+ you increase the damage out put by 66% on average.
Interestingly tgis effect makes it so guardians will actualy out damage your basic dark reaper when firing at a leman russ when it is under the effects of doom. Which I think is why dark reapers are just alittle meh to me.
Either way the long and short is that to know if you'd rather doom over smite is look at your doom target and see if the target has 12+ wounds. As if you would normally do 8 woulda on a 4+ you'll instead do 12 wounds with doom. Which is 4 more wounds. A reminds that your basic smite averages 1.75 damage when you factor in factor in the chance to get it off plud the chance of getting a d6 smite.
So when you look at the 50% chance to get doom off that would be an average of 2 damage from your doom if your target has 12 wounds and you need 4+ to do wounds.. this gets better the worse your chance to wound. So if you need 5s or 6s then doom becomes more attractive and accordingly you can more likely use doom. This can get better if you are using shurican weapons as fishing for 6s is very nice, and increase the effect of doom.
Also smite from a farseer gets pretty spicy. As you can reroll dice to try to get that big smitw. If smite is your 2nd spell and you roll a 4 and something else, you can reroll the other die to try to super charge the smite.
Tldr: doom you really mainly just use on big units or units with lots of wounds otherwise throw down your smite.
Besides dark reapers (i dont own any atm and they are back ordered) what are our go to anti tank? Lot of astra mil in my area and it gets costly when im paying for wave serpents and a fire dragon or wraithguard. So is crimson hunter or fire prims our best? “Deep striking” war walkers?
If you're looking for something to delete LR tanks reliably? Alaitoc Spearhead detachment of 3x Fire Prisms will see ya right.
I like Prisms, Hemlocks or Wraithguard with scythes, everything else is generally Str 8 which is too unreliable for my tastes (I often fight L Russ tanks). Prisms thanks to linked fire and the others thanks to lol-D weapons.
ryzouken wrote: I don’t think his initial calculations took into account the improved strength from laser lances on charge either.
Should be 15 attacks in melee, hitting on 3s for 10 hits, wounding on 5s due to strength 6 v tough 7 for about 3 and a third wounds, or about 6 damage.
Further: why are 4.6 hits of str 6 translating to .98 wounds when you wound on 5s? 1/3 of 4.6 is around 1.5, not .98
Am I missing something?
Saves.
Besides dark reapers (i dont own any atm and they are back ordered) what are our go to anti tank? Lot of astra mil in my area and it gets costly when im paying for wave serpents and a fire dragon or wraithguard. So is crimson hunter or fire prims our best? “Deep striking” war walkers?
A squad oh shin8ng spears with a quicken warlock or a second squad with saim-hann stratagem will see you in and out the other side of basicly any target. Hecl they'll do more damage in the shooting phase than the reapers will to a leman russ <. <
Puganaut wrote: Dumb question, but has anyone had any experience with "ambitious" casts rather than simply "kill it deader"? EG, rather than using it to ensure a S8 weapon wounds against a t8 vehicle, targeting a t6/7 vehicle with catapults? Obviously can be mathhammered, and feel free, but interested in practical experiences
Interesting question! Some quick math:
Doom on a 4+ to wound generates a 75% success rate (1- (1/2)(1/2)) versus the raw 50% of needing a 4+
Doom on a 5+ to wound generates a 55% success rate (1- (2/3)(2/3)) versus the raw 33% of needing a 5+
So, in the proposed scenario of having high value shooting and lower value shooting, what you end up dooming is predicated highly on how reliably you need targets removed. If you go through upgrading your lower value fire with doom, you now are looking at success values of 50% and 55%. In other words, your chances of successfully damaging each target are as likely as not doing so. On the other hand, upgrading your high value firepower means you have reasonable confidence in damaging one target, with the other target being less likely to sustain damage. So what's the great equalizer here? Number of shots. Your low value fire is likely high quantity, giving you many trials for your probability to shine through. Your high value fire, however, has fewer shots (often just 1), so we'd ideally like to maximize our probability of success for these because our volume of trials is quite low.
At this point, you can take the probability values above and plug them into a binomial distribution calculator (or do the math by hand if that's your thing) to see what the expectations are like under various quantities of fire and conditions. This will let you see exactly how doom shapes the overall likelihood of your fire achieving desirable results depending on whether you support x brightlances or y shuriken catapults with it.
There's an interesting wrinkle that happens with those calculations if you're talking about Shuriken weapons, too!
Guardians, for example, are a great way to benefit from Doom by shooting at higher toughness, because when wounding on a 5+, 50% of your successful wounds will also be bladestorm wounds. When doom is applied, it increases your chances to wound, without decreasing the chance that a successful wound will also be a bladestorm wound.
Take 40 guardian shots: Assume odds that 27 hit on average. Wounding on a 5+, you're looking at ~9w, with ~4.5 of those wounds as bladestorm. With Doom, that goes up to ~15w, of which ~7.5 are bladestorm.
Compare that to wounding on 4's with no doom (50% success rate, so close to the 55% with doom on a 5+), where you'd get ~13.5 total wounds, but only an average of ~4.5 bladestorm wounds.
Cheers guys! Pretty interesting stuff, I'll be sure to give it a go. My personal take away is to just abuse doom as much as possible, keeping in mind it'll improve to wound by about 25% ish. I guess the toss up is that if your entire army is firing on a doom target, the entire army has effectively improved shooting by that margin vs no doom, however that's not always achievable.
I think 2 farseers may be a sweet spot, and focussing the targets. Killing a pair of priority targets a turn is usually pretty devastating, EG two russes, a big blob, etc etc. 3 for consistency at 2000+ might also be a consideration. Cheers all!
You can only use once Doom per turn, no one will be playing non matched play that much so considering being able to cast more than one of each power is not worth it
You can only use once Doom per turn, no one will be playing non matched play that much so considering being able to cast more than one of each power is not worth it
I agree you really just want one farseer.
Smite+executioner on a farseer is cost effective when compared to just about any unit against just about any targets.
From there doom can be more cost effective than smite against stuff with ~12 wounds if your weapons would on a 4+ or worse. (If you'd normally so I wounds tgen refilling a 4+ will get you to 12. Which is like doing 4 damage 58% of the time)
Guide comparatively is pretty poor as most likely you'll have an autarch who does that effect more cost effectively if it hits two units, or way better if the autarch effect 3 or more units. Also guide in most situations is only effecting a 3+ to hit which is only a 33% increase in damage which meaans for guide to be better than a smite nornally you need a target that has 16 wounds or more. So all of those situations kind of make guide normally just not worth white.
Then you have fortune which could be good on super big units or units with lots wounds. It's like an opposite doom in that you won't be casting every turn as you might get more millage from a smite. Even more so fortune might mean your opponent will just use thier fire power else where, which can be good for that unit but your opponents damage per turn won't be effected.
The other spells are super meh or need to much support., and the farseers bread and butter spells over 5 turns of play will likely be execute and smite as doom falls off in usefulness in later turns.
For what it's worth, Guide is really good on Shadow Spectres, just because it nets the more shots. It'll almost double their damage output with the concentrated beam. Not worth worrying about for top level tournament builds, since Spectres are too expensive to have a place at that table, but worth considering if you are running them anyway, assuming you plan on making use of the concentrated beam more than the diffuse.
Fafnir wrote: For what it's worth, Guide is really good on Shadow Spectres, just because it nets the more shots. It'll almost double their damage output with the concentrated beam. Not worth worrying about for top level tournament builds, since Spectres are too expensive to have a place at that table, but worth considering if you are running them anyway, assuming you plan on making use of the concentrated beam more than the diffuse.
Nice call. If it's almost doubling there damage out put. You dont think a big squad with guide would be good??
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nah it doesnt help that much. The coherent part doesn't really have very good targets. So there is no real situations where you'd use them over other stuff even with that cool guide thing you pointed out :( that sucks.
(It gets beat out by windriders for kill in marines, and dark reapers for killing russ. Which is consider the bare minimum for killing those specific targets)
I've run a 10 man squad with farseer support. They're devastating against weaker players and lists, but against opponents who start building for optimization, they just have too much difficulty making back their cost. They have to kill so much just to break even, and you can't really count on that against a good opponent. And because they (and a supporting seer) take up so much of your army now, you can't really afford to have them underperform.
pilchard8 wrote: Ive been running dark reapers quite a bit and my experience may not be good as some but i find the big squad which you webway in performs better either with a standard launcher or the ELM for the mortal wound stratagem. The range on the tempest launcher lets it down and you can keep out of range of most weapons with fire and fade.
I think running minimum squads with tempest launcher is the way forward, i only have 10 reapers at the moment and im reluctant to buy more until March comes around due to the nerf. Im going to proxy next game and give it a go with 2 min squads.
In trying to avoid reading through the crazy topic in You Make Da Call, was there a decision on whether the EML with stratagem still causes regular wounds with a hit, or is it just the mortal wounds?
Was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with a lynx? I've been keeping track of this thread, mostly, but haven't seen it mentioned much, and so far there isn't a summary on the webway page.
I've got one sat on the shelf that hasn't seen the tabletop yet but I'm thinking of converting the pulsar to a sonic Lance. I feel like I've got other stuff that can do what the pulsar does much more efficiently, but the sonic Lance can potentially remove a unit a turn, and also thin those hordes down.
I do tend to face a lot of lascannons though, so it could just as easily turn into a 400pt lump.
Trashpanda wrote: Was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with a lynx? I've been keeping track of this thread, mostly, but haven't seen it mentioned much, and so far there isn't a summary on the webway page.
I've got one sat on the shelf that hasn't seen the tabletop yet but I'm thinking of converting the pulsar to a sonic Lance. I feel like I've got other stuff that can do what the pulsar does much more efficiently, but the sonic Lance can potentially remove a unit a turn, and also thin those hordes down.
I do tend to face a lot of lascannons though, so it could just as easily turn into a 400pt lump.
Honestly, for the points it seems fragile and undergunned. The Lynx Pulsar is worse in every way compared to the Fire Prism. Lance is better but its still just (on average) about 10x 1 damage hits at relatively short range.
You should be able to protect it somewhat by stacking -1 to hit modifiers. Definitely needs vectored engines and Alaitoc, and possibly a liberal helping of the 'Lightning reflexes' stratagem if the enemy gets a crack at it turn 1. I just don't see it surviving long enough to ever earn its points back in kills, or weather enough enemy fire to be a decent distraction carnifex.
Yeh I was worried about the fragility too, 16w on a 400pt model just isn't enough sadly.
We don't play super competitive though so I'm still going to try it out, and I'll probably be using alaitoc to give it a bit more protection.
I still think the sonic Lance will do some damage though, 18“ range isn't too bad, and 3d6 auto hits that wound any infantry on 2+, with ap-3 will hurt, and that's without any psychic support.
Plus, like the hemlock, it's at full firepower even when down to 1 wound, just a shame it only has 16 of them.
Sonic Lance would definitely be the way to go with the Lynx. It can fulfill the ''leaping character sniper'' role better than the Hemlock, provided someone leaves a giant gaping hole. The Overwatch is pretty nasty and it does great damage vs most infantry.
Spirit Stones will actually average another 3+ wounds on top of your 16, since the ones its saved before get to save again. I'd avoid Vectored Engines, since you don't really want to Advance and lose a round of shooting with such a pricey investment.
Goobi2 wrote: Sonic Lance would definitely be the way to go with the Lynx. It can fulfill the ''leaping character sniper'' role better than the Hemlock, provided someone leaves a giant gaping hole. The Overwatch is pretty nasty and it does great damage vs most infantry.
Spirit Stones will actually average another 3+ wounds on top of your 16, since the ones its saved before get to save again. I'd avoid Vectored Engines, since you don't really want to Advance and lose a round of shooting with such a pricey investment.
Looking back at FW units i noticed the Phoenix can be a decent addition too for the same cost as a Hemlock it can sport a decent weapons combo. The built in Crystal matrix allow it to perform quite well with proper colocation and can bring decent Anti horde firepower.
Can't agree that Spectres don't have good targets for their beam. If your army is all Hemlocks, Spears, and Reapers then they have no place. Otherwise they are solid, versatile units.
The only problem with the Phoenix is that it's only hitting on a 4+ starting off. So even with its fairly impressive (by Eldar standards) 17 shot average when kitted for infantry, only 8-9 should hit and most of those lack any significant punch.
Goobi2 wrote: The only problem with the Phoenix is that it's only hitting on a 4+ starting off. So even with its fairly impressive (by Eldar standards) 17 shot average when kitted for infantry, only 8-9 should hit and most of those lack any significant punch.
Well it has a Crystal matrix built in ( no penalty firing heavy weapons vs closest targets) hence why i said it may perform fine vs hordes with proper colocation, the punch it's pretty similar to a tempest launcher (albeit with a -1 instead -2) but since the main idea is vs hordes (Guardsmen, orks,gants ) who already should had crappy armor saves i tought it may work. Hence why i'm asking if someone already bothered to play one instead or just use raw Mathhammer to value it.
Fair point, I did forget the CTM. Though with some decent weapon ranges, its a pity movement will dictate its targetting priority. That said it's firepower warrants a look, so I'll try one out this week. At the very least, it is the most durable of all our non-super-heavy flyers.
Special mention goes to the Vampire Hunter. Post FAQ it was arguably a much better Scorpion. Post Chapter Approved, running it will be an uphill battle.
xmbk wrote: Can't agree that Spectres don't have good targets for their beam. If your army is all Hemlocks, Spears, and Reapers then they have no place. Otherwise they are solid, versatile units.
This a little bit is like saying if you don't have any bright lances warp spiders are good anti tank. THe spectres don't have good targets in that no matter what your shooting at some one always does it better, and if your looking at a versitile shooter shining spears and dark repears are better.
Theres no role that they serve that you can't get better some where else. They are redundant in that way i guess you could say. Which is disappointing, but with warp spiders also existing i can't think of a niche the spectres could take up that would make them unique in an eldar force.
I'm mainly a marine player but I wanted to look for another army and I'm willing to start a 1000 points eldar army (later will become 2000). I already have the codex but I really don't know where to start. For sure the alatoic trait is interesting but I'm actually in love with wraithguard models and I was wondering if you guys could give me some suggestions how to build a list around these.
I'm mainly a marine player but I wanted to look for another army and I'm willing to start a 1000 points eldar army (later will become 2000). I already have the codex but I really don't know where to start. For sure the alatoic trait is interesting but I'm actually in love with wraithguard models and I was wondering if you guys could give me some suggestions how to build a list around these.
Many thanks,
Christian
The meat and potatoes of lyanden is a Wratih bomb where you web-way in some wraith blades,. Quicken then, use the iyanden stratagem and relic, and what ever they were in front of disappear. From there iyanden doesn't do much other than really help out your crimson hunters and wraith knight form decaying. So if you do use lyanden usualy you use another craft world to accompany them. Biel-tan could be good if you spent a command point to throw a relic onto you warlock to allow them to reroll thier quicken spell, but now you are droping a command point for that which makes it a little meh, as you already have the iyanden relic.
So other than that your best comboing iwth some alaitoc support. Rangers would be nice to keep space for your wraith bomb.
xmbk wrote: Can't agree that Spectres don't have good targets for their beam. If your army is all Hemlocks, Spears, and Reapers then they have no place. Otherwise they are solid, versatile units.
This a little bit is like saying if you don't have any bright lances warp spiders are good anti tank. THe spectres don't have good targets in that no matter what your shooting at some one always does it better, and if your looking at a versitile shooter shining spears and dark repears are better.
Theres no role that they serve that you can't get better some where else. They are redundant in that way i guess you could say. Which is disappointing, but with warp spiders also existing i can't think of a niche the spectres could take up that would make them unique in an eldar force.
Again, if you only field Reapers, Spears, and Hemlocks, you are correct. But if you want a 4th unit, Spears are good and versatile. Disparage them only if you want to disparage the entire rest of the codex. It's certainly an oversimplification to say that Reapers and Spears do everything better.
admironheart wrote: If you have roughly 180 points to spare. You have a gunline with not too many bodies.
What could you do with those points to beef up a gunline?
3 squads of 5 Rangers to screen your gunline from Deep Strikers and opportunistic assaulters. With Blood Angels and Nids leading the way in fast moving armies, you may find your opponent's getting close faster than they did in Index days. Pop them in cover and they are OK vs shooting,have ObjSec and might even get the occasional Mortal Wound if the dice favour you.
admironheart wrote: If you have roughly 180 points to spare. You have a gunline with not too many bodies.
What could you do with those points to beef up a gunline?
3 squads of 5 Rangers to screen your gunline from Deep Strikers and opportunistic assaulters. With Blood Angels and Nids leading the way in fast moving armies, you may find your opponent's getting close faster than they did in Index days. Pop them in cover and they are OK vs shooting,have ObjSec and might even get the occasional Mortal Wound if the dice favour you.
As i like to keep my army well clumped together. i'd flank the gunline with fliers that you'd likely already have, or your wave serpents, and then just take one such squad of rangers. Save other other 120 points for whatever. That many rangers start to feel pretty bad in my opinion. If your doing a tournament and you go against space marines scounts you just wanted 180 points of rangers. Are none deep striking forces against 180 wasted points, while 1 squad of rangers can already have a nice big impact. Even more so when there isn't really much reason to spread your army accross the table in eldar, when we have so many awesome fast options like swooping hawks.
I mean we can webway them or cloudstrike to give them some protection.
even if you go Saim-Hann....what weapon loadout is best.
Seems if you go all shuriken cannons then you spend 210 points on a 24" range and not as durable as Wave Serpents x2 for not much difference.
If you go with a bigger gun like EML or Bright Lance or even Scatter laser then you want to make use of most the 36"+ range and so you may as well take the useless twin shuriken catapults. But then your rate of fire drops down compared to a War Walker.
I mean we can webway them or cloudstrike to give them some protection.
even if you go Saim-Hann....what weapon loadout is best.
Seems if you go all shuriken cannons then you spend 210 points on a 24" range and not as durable as Wave Serpents x2 for not much difference.
If you go with a bigger gun like EML or Bright Lance or even Scatter laser then you want to make use of most the 36"+ range and so you may as well take the useless twin shuriken catapults. But then your rate of fire drops down compared to a War Walker.
How do you use Vypers.....if you had to?
the best use for vypers are they are durable and can be in squads of three w/ shurikan cannons, or shurickan cannons and scatter). This allows you to have a big unit that can be an alternate target for forwarning. against units like scions. For the csot you can get 8 Dark reapers which can do about the same damage to said squad of scions, which i think puts the vypers on top here. The vypers with scatter will likely just kill a 10man scion squad on the drop. From there the vypers are more durable than said reapers. Wave serpents can't forwarn as well as vypers are a single squad. Other weapon options are just flat out, out matched by the crimson hunter exarch or hemlock.
Also my strat has been doing for a flying wing formation after turns 2 or 3. Where you are in clean up/ objective grabbing stages of the game. In such formations i usually run 2 wave serpents a hemlock and crimson hunter exarch. WIth a farseer, autrach, warlock skyrunner sandwitched between the two fliers, forcing my opponent to drop the fliers and serpents before they can claim sudden death. In such a formation the vypers could also hand out decently well keeping pace with the speedy fliers, and blocking chargers from getting between your two jets.
As I’m running a “small” Saim-Hann outrider detachment, I tend to prefer my 2 vyper squad to have starcannons. At 150 points, the unit can put out a decent amount of fire power, without worrying about the penalty for moving and shooting. It’s a nice little bonus which supplements the rest of my army. As it stands, they can provide a fair amount of threat/point scoring, whilst not being one of the first turn targets like Hemlocks etc are.
I personally don’t think I’d ever run Vypers as single model units in a competitive/itc standing as they would then just be “easy” points. I also think running with the AML or Bright Lance just makes them way more of a target early on as well (along with substantially more expensive when looking at a unit).
As for Rangers – sure, if you come up against SM Scouts it can be a massive pain, but I’ll still take 3 units rather than 1. Simply because they are cheap obsec and CP. Not to mention, they can be a pain to remove and having 15 sniper shots does start to chip away at wounds/models.
3 units also provides a nice amount of screening, for all those times when you aren’t up against 3+ units of SM Scouts.
So I want to include a in your face unit beside shining spears. I am looking at wraithguard/blades.
Curious what you guys feel is best coming out of webway:
5 with guns
5 with blades
5 with axes/shields
I feel like the guns are just better with the fists still giving a modifier to armour but havent had a chance to test them out and just bought 10 of them.
Thanks.
Also struggling with Striking Scorpions they seem REALLY underwhelming.
Incognito15 wrote: So I want to include a in your face unit beside shining spears. I am looking at wraithguard/blades.
Curious what you guys feel is best coming out of webway:
5 with guns
5 with blades
5 with axes/shields
I feel like the guns are just better with the fists still giving a modifier to armour but havent had a chance to test them out and just bought 10 of them.
Thanks.
Also struggling with Striking Scorpions they seem REALLY underwhelming.
Anyone try 40-50 Dire Avengers with Asurmen?
from personal experience, axes with quicken/protect will do some serious work without taking much of a beating, even more so with fortune. I'd save them for turn 2 surprise charges though after your opponent has maneuvered or you've cleared chaff. Used this tactic to take out a levi-dread last weekend.
Incognito15 wrote: So I want to include a in your face unit beside shining spears. I am looking at wraithguard/blades.
Curious what you guys feel is best coming out of webway:
5 with guns
5 with blades
5 with axes/shields
I feel like the guns are just better with the fists still giving a modifier to armour but havent had a chance to test them out and just bought 10 of them.
Thanks.
Also struggling with Striking Scorpions they seem REALLY underwhelming.
Anyone try 40-50 Dire Avengers with Asurmen?
from personal experience, axes with quicken/protect will do some serious work without taking much of a beating, even more so with fortune. I'd save them for turn 2 surprise charges though after your opponent has maneuvered or you've cleared chaff. Used this tactic to take out a levi-dread last weekend.
I too prefer axes and shields, but, a big part of that also comes from me thinking the models look awesome
As for DA - not tried a large force of them, but i like running a couple of units. Not sure about Asurman myself though, seems kinda expensive.
Good day folks, I'm in need of some assistance as i'm at a bit of a planning impasse.
I'm trying to fully finalize the heart of my force with the objective to make it as lean and efficient as possible while also keeping to how I want it to be according to fluff. At it's heart i'm wanting to base the core off the Aeldari Battlehost information page 13 of the codex - to that aim this core must consist of 30 Guardians (1st-3rd Squad) and then at least one full support squad and i'm wanting the force to be mechanized.
My starting point is the support squad, which I want setup as 3 Vyper Jetbikes and 2 Wave Serpents (Going to model with Fire Prism turrets so these are manned). From there it's easy to throw Guardian squads into the Wave Serpents and then add 10 Windriders. This would broadly split into two detachments, one Outrider with the Windriders and Vypers while the other has the Guardian Squads - that's where my planning impasse comes in.
2 Guardian Squads puts me one troops choice away from a Batallion and i'd quite like the CP from that, however my choices in that slot seem rather poor.
- Rangers would serve no purpose as the whole force being mechanised can fly so i'm not too worried about needing screens
- Dire Avengers only add more shuriken fire which starts becoming overkill, then they also need transport which bloats the core
- More guardians blows the 30 Guardian count.
With that I see two options, it would be great to get some more views and see if I have more options than I realise.
Option 1
Drop the windriders, stick 20 guardians in the webway, 10 in a serpent and put some Dire Avengers in the other serpent. The Shuriken volume nets out the same but my durability and mobility are worse and the guardian blob will have morale problems compared to windriders, plus it hard-commits some of the CP, something which i'd rather avoid
Option 2
Miss out on being a "craftworlds" detachment and add a Harlequin Troupe, possibly with Shadowseer. I'd get my CP and keep the intent of the force but if i'm assessing this option correctly I believe i lose out on objective secured from my Guardian Squads as well as any Craftworld trait. This feels like something I could live with, especially since any Harlequins keep Rising Crescendo, but could be a pain to be explaining to opponents.
Does anyone have any advice or see some other options?
Don't count the Guardians on jetbikes towards the 30-man limit?
It seems a bit arbitrary to me. IMO you definitely want a Battalion for the CPs as we have plenty of decent stratagems in our codex. I prefer Dire Avengers to guardians in practice as I find the extra range and better armour makes them a lot more durable. Guardians either end up baby-sitting a heavy weapon platform in the backfield which is not very efficient or acting as a shurican-bomb which is not very fluffy for a dying race.
If mechanization is your key factor then Avengers are the obvious choice.
A couple things. I assume this is a 2k list? or perhaps smaller.
even with a mechanized list you can still get charged or alpha striked. I know you did not want screeners but think of these options.
Put the 3 vypers in the webway as 1 unit. They are then safe.
or
Put 20 guardians in the webway and 10 in a serpent and then Dire Avengers or any other aspect you want in the 2nd.
3rd since you don't have screeners and you may get alpha striked....think about using your jetbikes as a screen. Then if you spread them out to the very farthest....an opponent will have to keep his unit in coherency and a jetbike 2" away from another jetbike ...all end pointing toward end makes for the longest deployment you can get. If some get shot or assaulted....you just kill the ones where you don't need them and use fly keyword to move off on your turn.
Remember you don't have to consolidate at all with any unit in hth. It is very easy to kill off your models in base to base so that you are left outside the 1" range after his pile in. So even if a unit does not have fly, it doesn't begin in hth...so can move normally.
you also could do 2 five/six model units of Dire Avengers and put them in the 2nd serpent to fulfil your troop tax.
Miss out on being a "craftworlds" detachment and add a Harlequin Troupe, possibly with Shadowseer. I'd get my CP and keep the intent of the force but if i'm assessing this option correctly I believe i lose out on objective secured from my Guardian Squads as well as any Craftworld trait. This feels like something I could live with, especially since any Harlequins keep Rising Crescendo, but could be a pain to be explaining to opponents.
Well, if you did include a Shadowseer and a Troupe they would qualify as a Patrol Detachment. And having them in a seperate detachment would allow the rest of your army to maintain their craftworld traits and ObSec. Unless you can't have another detachment, that would be the way to run Option 2.
Thanks for the input people, it's helped refine my thinking:
@ Karhedron - I steer clear of Avengers in transports mostly due to the points premium over Guardians for what is less firepower. The only exception to this is they make a good replacement for Storm Guardians as 2 small squads so that you double up on the Exarch's and can then shoot & charge for some good combined damage while you blitz onto an objective with Objective Secured backing you up. They do make the better objective holder though being able to go 3+ in cover and with better overwatch and LD to ensure they stick around.
@ admironheart - You pretty much nail why i don't think i need a screen, the rest of the force is more than capable of doing it exactly in the manner you describe. I've not decided on a trait yet but I'm leaning towards Biel-Tan as it's a very Shuriken heavy force, though Ulthwe certainly has it's perks. The one I wouldn't be going for is Alaitoc as i'm going to be down the opponents throat a lot so i won't get the best mileage from it.
@ Goobi2 - That would certainly get me the Harlequins, you are correct, however the objective here is to finish off the Batallion.
I think pooling the thoughts together my best option is actually a 10 man Dire Avenger squad on foot. Unlike a big blob of 20 guardians in the webway the avengers can be a bit more flexible in how i deploy them (webway, upfront screen to a guardian firing line or just chilling in a serpent) and they are not a big points investment so if I do choose to Webway them in to grab an objective, I can afford to wait until turn 2-3 without a big loss in firepower. It also makes the core a nice 1250 point block, leaving plenty of points for all sorts of options in what I attach to it at any given time.
What is the point of the wsrlocks. Are you taking them as tax just to get the battlion??
I'd swap out the star cannons for bright lances or even out bright lances on. The voters. You are abit light on anti tank and the star cannons tend to be a none commitment weapon that does multiple different targets okay, but isn't really good at any one.
You might consider droping the hyper in favor of shurican cannon or scatter bikes. A big squad Loves!!! Forewarning alot and will see alot off deep strike units deleted the moment they hit the table. Scatter is my personal preference. Would drop axioms and the need deep strike daemons cold in thier tracks.
Two things I'd consider is if the theme of your force is ruining its function?? Sure you are fast, but why???
"Yeah I'm gonna cuddle you and shoot you with pretty decent weapons HAHa"
Seems alittle eh. I think a melee component like shining spears/wraithblade/storm guardiabs/ striking scorpions or anything really spooky would tie things together nicely. As the other flying units can support your melee components charging threats to your melee unit. A wa4lock council would be a cool self contained melee unit as an option.
The warlocks are support that I would be taking even without the battalion requirements. They will either be going Jinx/Protect so that all that Shuriken fire gets 2 chances at supporting buffs between that and Doom, then there is the chance at making the Vyper squad a 2+ save; alternatively i'll be going for the Mindwar bomb with Embolden/Horrify - they will need to be Warlocks rather than Spiritseers as you need to use the Seer Council stratagem to really add some reliability to that. The leadership bomb would become quite funny if i did add the Harlequins as you'd make the Shadowseer your Warlord and give it the -1LD aura equipment, combo'd with a Hemlock for a rather nasty -3LD bubble that would be quite troublesome and make for an effective hallucinogen launcher.
Star Cannons for Brightlances is one i've been mulling over and it really depends on the other 750 point block as to if i'd do that. Those 750 points will be changing around to add variety in what I play and could be anything from Harlequins with a tonne of Haywire launchers and fusion, a Spirit host of Wraithcannon or maybe a trio of Grav Tanks and an aspect host of Fire Dragons - plenty of ways to address the anti-tank in a good way.
The Harlequins is tempting since they would mix well with the main force, and when 3 skyweavers with 3 haywire cannons, 2 zephyrglaive and a star bolas come in cheaper than 2 Brightlance Warwalkers you could do some nifty things to beef out both the anti-tank and the melee side of things.
Almost a shame i'm painting things up as Iybraesil since a Lugganath force would suit that
I would upgrade the Warlocks to Spiritseers. 10 points for twice as many wounds is a bargain. You get the full-fat version of Smite and you will not go POP to a single perils.
I fully understand why so many people recommend spending the 10 points for a Spiritseer, however I would rather use those 10 points anywhere else in my list if I can. There are several ways to mitigate the perils risk with rerolls, and you have to be in a very bad way not to find a use for Runes of Battle powers before Smite.
I'm of a similar view. The warlock powers are a bit too unreliable without it but they let you do some rather good things.
In other news, I've just found out that I would actually have the points to fit one of the most aesthetic vehicles the Eldar have into my list; does anyone have any experience with the Scorpion super-heavy tank?
I have run the Scorpion. I dont think it is quite worth the 700 pts, but it can really dish out some damage.
Stationary it can deal a TON of damage to 1-10 Model units. It isn't great vs Hordes, not that you would shoot at one with this anyway. A Crystal Targeting Matrix can help it move and shoot without penalty, but reduces your effective targeting options.
Moving nets you an invul save (that will degrade once you cant move far enough). A 5 or 6++ save isn't too amazing, but it should offer some protection vs the scary weapons that will target the Scorpion with priority. Spirit Stones are pretty much a must take upgrade, and offer more for their points here than on any Codex vehicle.
If you care to invest Guide into it, a Scorpion skating your backlines shooting across the battlefield can use its range as its primary source of defense, while falling back on the invul. If you don't want to Guide it, you can plop it in a corner using only its range for defense. Have screening units around to keep bad guys away and just delete units at your leisure.
While that all sounds pretty good, for 700 points you can probably do better with codex options. That is roughly 4 Fire Prisms with the same range that can do 8D3 S9 shots vs tanks or elites and 8D6 S6 shots vs hordes. You are less susceptible to overkilling units, lower toughness (but more wounds and reduces effectiveness slower), faster, can cover more objectives, etc.
The Scorpion does receive buffs better, though. And in my games with it, the Scorpion delivered steady devastating blows to the Pesky Tyranids that tried to approach.
I'm of a similar view. The warlock powers are a bit too unreliable without it but they let you do some rather good things.
In other news, I've just found out that I would actually have the points to fit one of the most aesthetic vehicles the Eldar have into my list; does anyone have any experience with the Scorpion super-heavy tank?
Yep you get what you pay for with the Scorpion I think.
Goobi summed it up, but 2 points from me:
1. Combos fantastically with the stratagems: Forewarned, Lightning reflexes, and Cloudstrike (in some cases)
2. Guide sounds great as a buff for a 700 point shooty unit but remember it hits on 2's until you start to degrade, so all guide will do is allow rerolls of 1 (due to modifiers after rerolls). A cheap Autarch in your gunline will do the same thing. The Farseer can then cast Fortune on it or something else more valuable.
Thanks for the input, i've been working through the weapon comparisons between the Scorpion and the Cobra and they are both pretty terrifying and should one-shot almost any vehicle or monstrous creature, though the Scorpion looks to have a huge advantage in being able to blow up 10-man squads of any variety as well, so it's got a wider threat profile, albeit at the cost of a 150 point premium. I highly doubt the Scorpion will ever "make it's points back" in a match but it would certainly punch a hole big enough in an opponents force that the rest of the list could exploit for a true sword-wind style assault.
Guide and a CTM seem to be a necessity for either one as you won't want to be hit badly by degradation or people stacking -1 to hits. Feels so odd to catch yourself thinking about a Cobra as the "sensible" moderate option - what do you think the risk would be of a Cobra not having good targets in a game be? At the moment my gut is saying for a take-all-comers list you would pretty much have to go for the Scorpion.
Too bad you can't split the Scorpion's fire across 2 targets, one for each pulsar....
Trashpanda wrote: What about the cobra? Stats wise it looks unimpressive but maybe I'm missing something
I would always roll 1 for the D6 shots so its not for me
Also the main turn off I think is the 36" range. A lot of the time these things will want to target the big stuff hiding in the back, with only this much range you'll likely have to shift up a bit, which just makes it that much easier for the enemy to get at your expensive, relatively fragile glass cannon.
Edit:
Guide and a CTM seem to be a necessity for either one as you won't want to be hit badly by degradation or people stacking -1 to hits.
Guide won't help against enemies stacking the -1 modifiers.
Spartacus wrote: Guide won't help against enemies stacking the -1 modifiers.
You'll have to explain that one to me as it makes no sense. Guide re-rolls failed hit rolls. -1 modifiers modify the roll - the roll fails, you get to reroll?
I get things like -1 modifiers not letting the autarch aura work since you only re-roll "rolls of 1" not "rolls of 2 that got modified to 1" but a fail is a fail right?
EDIT: nvm, found the part in the FAQ's about rerolls
The best way to do it is to roll as if you had no modifiers, reroll fails, then apply modifiers
For example Let's say you have a Guided unit of War Walkers with Bright lances that moved. Roll your to hits as if you can hit on 3+ (because they have BS3+), rerolling only 1s and 2s. Once you get your post reroll results, than apply -1.
So basically this means that any 3+ rolls DO NOT get to be rerolled as they technically hit according to the WWBS, but once you reroll the 1s and 2s, you then remove the 3s as fails.
It is written this way to prevent the myriad "reroll 1s" auras from being able to reroll 2s. Use the same example above, but instead of Guided, we use an Autarch. If modifiers came before rerolls, than all 1s AND 2s rolled would count as 1s and allow the Autarch aura to reroll twice the number of dice than intended.
Honestly, this is one of the few examples of GW writing that give me confidence that they know what they are doing some of the time (and maybe it's the community that twists things out of functionality)
Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?
Also shinning spears with fortune active are insane.
jvry8c wrote: Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?
Would be a nice way to get them in range turn 1, but the WW assault requires units to have the <Infantry> keyword, which Support batteries do not have.
And even if they did, you would only be able to drop 1 for 1CP, or 2 for 3CPs because when they are "set up" they become separate units. So while a unit of 3 is technically 1 drop, they would count as separate units and waste CPs for the WW assault. They would also count as moving, which would be -1 to hit.
You'd be better off dropping WG with wraithcannons.
Hey, so I've been in pretty much all the tactica threads now, as I've been flipping between armies, struggling to find the one for me. I though maybe Genestealer Cults suited, but after reading their fluff I don't want anything to do with them haha. I think Eldar might suit instead, as I like speed.
A couple of questions:
1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?
Thanks in advance everyone. I've been struggling for a month now to settle on an army :/
jvry8c wrote: Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?
Would be a nice way to get them in range turn 1, but the WW assault requires units to have the <Infantry> keyword, which Support batteries do not have.
And even if they did, you would only be able to drop 1 for 1CP, or 2 for 3CPs because when they are "set up" they become separate units. So while a unit of 3 is technically 1 drop, they would count as separate units and waste CPs for the WW assault.
They would also count as moving, which would be -1 to hit.
You'd be better off dropping WG with wraithcannons.
-
They are a single unit in terms of list building and deployment, so you’d still be able to deploy a unit of 3 of them as one drop. Similar to how the Tallarn Ambush strat allows you to deep-strike a unit of 3 Leman Russes and 2 infantry units.
jvry8c wrote: Has anyone tried webway assault with D-cannon support batteries? Sounds strange but dropping 2 or 3 close to enemy armor seems like a unorthodox tactic that could work. Thoughts?
Would be a nice way to get them in range turn 1, but the WW assault requires units to have the <Infantry> keyword, which Support batteries do not have.
And even if they did, you would only be able to drop 1 for 1CP, or 2 for 3CPs because when they are "set up" they become separate units. So while a unit of 3 is technically 1 drop, they would count as separate units and waste CPs for the WW assault.
They would also count as moving, which would be -1 to hit.
You'd be better off dropping WG with wraithcannons.
-
They are a single unit in terms of list building and deployment, so you’d still be able to deploy a unit of 3 of them as one drop. Similar to how the Tallarn Ambush strat allows you to deep-strike a unit of 3 Leman Russes and 2 infantry units.
i agree it would work, but webway assault is strictly infantry and bikes. the Support batteries are neither. The cloud strike is flying vehicles which the support thing also isn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey, so I've been in pretty much all the tactica threads now, as I've been flipping between armies, struggling to find the one for me. I though maybe Genestealer Cults suited, but after reading their fluff I don't want anything to do with them haha. I think Eldar might suit instead, as I like speed.
A couple of questions:
1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?
Thanks in advance everyone. I've been struggling for a month now to settle on an army :/
welcome farseer. Funny enough i play genestealer cult and eldar. Soon i'll be adding daemons to that mix.My cult mech is near eternally shelved.
1. yeah they are quite decent but require some form of support to get them where they need to go (wraithguard). Or synergy to make them cost effective (wraithlords/wraith blades).
2. Dire avengers are good in that they have more range, but guardians are more cost effective for thier damage out put. Durability wise it's a wash ebtween the two units. So it's really just range over damage output.
3. Farseer. I prefer mine on a bike as late game jetting it around makes tabling you quite difficult if you also have some escort fliers. Autarch next was your warlord. Then spirit host and warlocks based on what is in your list.
4. Most of the stuff in our book is pretty decent. I think the forgeworld stuff as on now everyone considers quite bad for eldar (? i dont use it myself). The tops in my personal order of best units, but most list would be something similar would be: Shining spears >>> Hemlock> Crimson hunter= wave serpents>> Dark reapers. Honestly i think dark reapers are abit over hyped as i think there isn't much they can do that a shining spear/ hemlock/ crimson hunter could do better, but lots of people really really like them so maybe there is something there that i fail to see despite playing them a few times and not liking thier preformance or the math behind them
1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?
1) Wraithguards are great, particularly the shooty variety but the CC Wraithblades can work well too. I nearly always run 2 squads, one with Wraithcannons and the other with D-scythes. They are very short ranged so either need a Wave Serpent or to be deployed using the Webway stratagem. Wraithcannons are the only version that really works well with the Webway as you have to deploy 9" away which means D-scythe units are out of range and Wraithblades only have a 28% chance of making their charge. You can use Quicken to get around this but that is vulnerable to failing your psychic test or your opponent denying the witch. You do not want a 200+ point unit just sitting there because of a bad dice roll. Webway is for Wraithcannons only.
Wraithlords are OK now that they have been boosted to T8. I feel they are outshone in the Heavy slot by Reapers and Fire Prisms but if you like the models, they can be made to work. Best build in my opinion is 2 shuricannons, 2 shuricats and a Glaive. This build can move, then advance and still shoot as all its weapons are assault. It can almost keep up with Wave Serpents if you roll well for your Advcance moves, is fairly cheap, can thin hordes and hits hard enough to make a mess of MEQs etc if it gets to charge.
2) I prefer Avengers to Guardians as I find the extra range and save makes them more versatile. I normally mech them up and hunt for objectives or shred other infantry. Against Doomed targets, their Dire catapults can be very effective. I would probably only use Guardians if I was running a unit of 20 with the webway stratagem. Rangers are also worth using as they are cheapish and long ranged which makes them good for objective camping. They are also useful for screening your more valuable units against enemies who can deep strike.
3) I normally take an Autarch on jetbike as my Warlord for the Path of Command to help regenerate CPs. He is fast enough to move about and buff whichever units need help and with a laser lance, he packs enough punch in CC to deal with small units on his own. I normally run him with the Shimmerplume helm as -1 to hit helps deter shooting and the "Eye on Distant events" Trait so that enemies cannot fire overwatch at him. I normally back him up with a Farseer. Mine is on foot but a jetbike is better. Doom is so good as to be almost mandatory in Eldar lists and your second power can be whatever you choose. I sometimes run a Spiritseer as a cheap 3rd HQ as several of the Runes of Battle powers are quite nice (Protect/Jinx is a favourite of mine). He is only 10 points more than a Warlock, has twice the number of wounds, gets Smite instead of Destructor and can buff your Wraith units.
4) Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Hemlock Wraithfighters, Crimson Hunters, Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms all seem to punch above their weight in the codex and are worth including. Storm Guardiians are pretty poor. Wraithknights are massively overpriced (which is a shame as they are lovely models but cost at least 100 points too much currently). Swooping Hawks get my vote as the most underrated unit in the Codex but are actually very good. They are cheap, very mobile, can shred light infantry and come with a pile of special rules that can be used to threaten various targets.
3) I normally take an Autarch on jetbike as my Warlord for the Path of Command to help regenerate CPs. He is fast enough to move about and buff whichever units need help and with a laser lance, he packs enough punch in CC to deal with small units on his own. I normally run him with the Shimmerplume helm as -1 to hit helps deter shooting and the "Eye on Distant events" Trait so that enemies cannot fire overwatch at him. I normally back him up with a Farseer. Mine is on foot but a jetbike is better. Doom is so good as to be almost mandatory in Eldar lists and your second power can be whatever you choose. I sometimes run a Spiritseer as a cheap 3rd HQ as several of the Runes of Battle powers are quite nice (Protect/Jinx is a favourite of mine). He is only 10 points more than a Warlock, has twice the number of wounds, gets Smite instead of Destructor and can buff your Wraith units.
No need to take the 'Eye on Distant Events' WT for your Autarch, a Banshee Mask does the same thing for free!
3) I normally take an Autarch on jetbike as my Warlord for the Path of Command to help regenerate CPs. He is fast enough to move about and buff whichever units need help and with a laser lance, he packs enough punch in CC to deal with small units on his own. I normally run him with the Shimmerplume helm as -1 to hit helps deter shooting and the "Eye on Distant events" Trait so that enemies cannot fire overwatch at him. I normally back him up with a Farseer. Mine is on foot but a jetbike is better. Doom is so good as to be almost mandatory in Eldar lists and your second power can be whatever you choose. I sometimes run a Spiritseer as a cheap 3rd HQ as several of the Runes of Battle powers are quite nice (Protect/Jinx is a favourite of mine). He is only 10 points more than a Warlock, has twice the number of wounds, gets Smite instead of Destructor and can buff your Wraith units.
No need to take the 'Eye on Distant Events' WT for your Autarch, a Banshee Mask does the same thing for free!
What WL trait would be best on the Autarch in that case? Fate's Messenger for the +1 W and 6+++? Seems like it would be pretty useful to stack durability with the -1 to hit from the Shimmerplume especially if you're charging your WL up with Shining Spears to get in CC.
3) I normally take an Autarch on jetbike as my Warlord for the Path of Command to help regenerate CPs. He is fast enough to move about and buff whichever units need help and with a laser lance, he packs enough punch in CC to deal with small units on his own. I normally run him with the Shimmerplume helm as -1 to hit helps deter shooting and the "Eye on Distant events" Trait so that enemies cannot fire overwatch at him. I normally back him up with a Farseer. Mine is on foot but a jetbike is better. Doom is so good as to be almost mandatory in Eldar lists and your second power can be whatever you choose. I sometimes run a Spiritseer as a cheap 3rd HQ as several of the Runes of Battle powers are quite nice (Protect/Jinx is a favourite of mine). He is only 10 points more than a Warlock, has twice the number of wounds, gets Smite instead of Destructor and can buff your Wraith units.
No need to take the 'Eye on Distant Events' WT for your Autarch, a Banshee Mask does the same thing for free!
What WL trait would be best on the Autarch in that case? Fate's Messenger for the +1 W and 6+++? Seems like it would be pretty useful to stack durability with the -1 to hit from the Shimmerplume especially if you're charging your WL up with Shining Spears to get in CC.
I've always used Mark of incomparable Hunter. If youre on a Jetbike, youll have a Laser Lance, take also either a Reaper Launcher or a Fusion Gun. When in range your Autarch can then nuke enemy characters with 4 Shuriken Catapult shots, a blast from the laser lance as well as a Fusion Gun shot or Reaper missiles, should do some serious damage. My personal preference is the Reaper Launcher for extra range. Killing off characters who rely on sitting behind screens of infantry is often suprisingly easy with that kind of firepower.
On the other hand the Autarch is a buff character, so you take a bubble of Fearless (If Alaitoc), or a buff to shooting (If Biel-Tan). Aside from maybe the Biel-Tan one, none of the traits are hugely better than the others, so its not a huge deal. Just use something you think you will enjoy and make use of.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey, so I've been in pretty much all the tactica threads now, as I've been flipping between armies, struggling to find the one for me. I though maybe Genestealer Cults suited, but after reading their fluff I don't want anything to do with them haha. I think Eldar might suit instead, as I like speed.
A couple of questions:
1) Are Wraithguard and Wraithlords good? They're my favourite models of the Eldar range
2) Are Dire Avengers good? I much prefer their models to guardians
3) I have no idea where to start with leaders
4) Any tips or general ideas on which units are affective and which I should just stay away from?
Thanks in advance everyone. I've been struggling for a month now to settle on an army :/
Not had much experience with Wraithlords for a long time, but they can provide a tough heavy weapons platform if you need them, or go in the opposite direction and run up the table with nothing but catapults and a sword.
Wraithguard are definitely very good, but, I don’t tend to find space for them in my lists. They can be very expensive and support heavy. I do love the Axe and Shield Blades though.
I like Dire Avengers as well, but I feel they have a different role to Guardians these days. For me, Avengers are more “back line, objective holding, support units”, using their extra range and armour save to benefit from sitting in cover. Guardians for me, tend to revolve around 20 man squads jumping out of the webway and killing a couple of units first turn, before hoping you can then keep them alive to then do something else with them.
A Skyrunner Autarch is always a good place to start for the buffs and abilities, alongside a Farseer of some kind. Eldar powers are really good, so also having a couple of Warlocks or Spiritseers is nice as well. I’d tend to stay away from the Phoenix Lords, Special Characters and Avatar initially, as you need to build your list (or at least a decent part of it) around them. This can lead to you being very one dimensional. There are options though.
Rangers are nice units as they are cheap, obsec, gain a 3+ save in cover, provide a deep strike denial bubble and have sniper rifles. However, you need to be careful if going up against Space Marine Scouts, or other units that deploy/scout move at the same time due to how the sequencing works.
Shining Spears are very good shock units, Dark Reapers, people are currently selling their children to get more (though I don’t include any personally), Hemlock Wraithfighters are also very good units, and of course, the Wave Serpent is an age old favorite. The only thing I can really think to “warn” against, is Falcon’s, Night Spinners and maybe the Wraithknight. The Knight is currently vastly overpriced for a lot of people, and can often die in one turn due to people being able to deal with them a lot easier in 8th.
Thank you guys so much for all the really helpful guidance, though I have a few more questions:
My friend heard I was getting into Eldar and grabbed me a box of Windriders. Are they any good?
What sort of weapons should I put on units and which should I stay away from? Stuff like bright lances and suncannons and shurikan cannons and such - are there clear winners over others?
Also, I'm seeing heaps of anti-vehicle/elite but what's best for volume of shots/horde killing?
I'm really happy that the Fire Prisom is good, as it's one of my favourite models, pretty much all of their vehicles are to be honest.
Thanks again everyone for such good advice; this is why I like Dakka so much
EDIT: Is it worth taking the Heavy Weapon Platforms in Guardian squads? Just noticed they can. Sort of reminds me of guardsmen
Windriders - with Alaitoc/Ulthwe & Shuriken cannons are OK, but be sure to kill enemy in range. Do not allow enemy to rapid fire back on your bikes. Do now allow enemy to charge your bikes with strong hand to hand units. Take in squads of 3-4 models. Learn a Mind Trick in real life and tell opponent that there are no bikes here.
Scatter laser - only good on min units of windriders to do mael/objectives far away.
Shuriken cannon - take everywhere else.
AML - stay away.
Bright lance - your basic anti-vehicle gun. Good for what it is, but there are few platforms it's good on. I ended up putting them on Wave Serpents turning them into fat eldar razorbacks.
Starcannon - good for what it is - killing W2 models - but I personally never find a place where to put it and just take more Lances instead. Guardian units can be good one, since it's just +5 pts and Guardians already have their catapults against everything else.
Swooping Hawks are neat at killing T3 trash. A minimal squad gives you 20 shots as far as '24 away. Shuriken catapults/cannons. I also like minimal squads of Banshees. A squad of 5 generally overwhelms ~8 cheaper models with heavy gun sitting and shooting, while clearing overwatch for your other units. Just don't charge orks.
Is it worth taking the Heavy Weapon Platforms in Guardian squads?
A matter of taste, and a situational upgrade. Basically, if you're just camping objective and shooting single heavy gun, you're wasting one of most cost effective drilling units in the codex. But, if you're within '12 of the enemy, it may be your guardian's last turn this day. Against shooting armies platform provides obvious protective benefit of extra 2 wounds in a 3+ save. But melee would just stomp you unless you get very lucky overwatch. Having a long range gun is good when you just use Guardians to camp somewhere or screen against stuff. But it's not that useful if you just want to unload them in masse from transports or webway.
So in the end, I think it's a matter of personal playing style.
Shadenuat wrote: Windriders - with Alaitoc/Ulthwe & Shuriken cannons are OK, but be sure to kill enemy in range. Do not allow enemy to rapid fire back on your bikes. Do now allow enemy to charge your bikes with strong hand to hand units. Take in squads of 3-4 models. Learn a Mind Trick in real life and tell opponent that there are no bikes here.
Scatter laser - only good on min units of windriders to do mael/objectives far away.
Shuriken cannon - take everywhere else.
AML - stay away.
Bright lance - your basic anti-vehicle gun. Good for what it is, but there are few platforms it's good on. I ended up putting them on Wave Serpents turning them into fat eldar razorbacks.
Starcannon - good for what it is - killing W2 models - but I personally never find a place where to put it and just take more Lances instead. Guardian units can be good one, since it's just +5 pts and Guardians already have their catapults against everything else.
Swooping Hawks are neat at killing T3 trash. A minimal squad gives you 20 shots as far as '24 away. Shuriken catapults/cannons. I also like minimal squads of Banshees. A squad of 5 generally overwhelms ~8 cheaper models with heavy gun sitting and shooting, while clearing overwatch for your other units. Just don't charge orks.
Is it worth taking the Heavy Weapon Platforms in Guardian squads?
A matter of taste, and a situational upgrade. Basically, if you're just camping objective and shooting single heavy gun, you're wasting one of most cost effective drilling units in the codex. But, if you're within '12 of the enemy, it may be your guardian's last turn this day. Against shooting armies platform provides obvious protective benefit of extra 2 wounds in a 3+ save. But melee would just stomp you unless you get very lucky overwatch. Having a long range gun is good when you just use Guardians to camp somewhere or screen against stuff. But it's not that useful if you just want to unload them in masse from transports or webway.
So in the end, I think it's a matter of personal playing style.
Thanks for the quick reply I was thinking of going Biel-Tan for the re-rolling 1's for Shuriken weapons, and take a heap of Shuriken cannons and such, though I can see how Alaitoc is really good. And I'd expect I'd be using the Dire Avengers for objective capping and large blobs of Guardians to rush around and do heaps of shots, so sounds like the gun platforms aren't for me.
I'm thinking I'm going to build my Wraithlord for melee and have him accompanied by Wriathblades. The sword is an obvious choice for the Wraithlord and the axes/shields seem the best for the Wriathblades, but what guns should I chuck on the lord? Shuriken catapults I'd assume over flamers, but would shuriken cannons also be good to chuck on him, so he has some range capability too?
Tiberius501 wrote: Thank you guys so much for all the really helpful guidance, though I have a few more questions:
My friend heard I was getting into Eldar and grabbed me a box of Windriders. Are they any good?
What sort of weapons should I put on units and which should I stay away from? Stuff like bright lances and suncannons and shurikan cannons and such - are there clear winners over others?
Also, I'm seeing heaps of anti-vehicle/elite but what's best for volume of shots/horde killing?
I'm really happy that the Fire Prisom is good, as it's one of my favourite models, pretty much all of their vehicles are to be honest.
Thanks again everyone for such good advice; this is why I like Dakka so much
EDIT: Is it worth taking the Heavy Weapon Platforms in Guardian squads? Just noticed they can. Sort of reminds me of guardsmen
Windriders are in a strange place right now, in a lot of people’s eyes. In 7th, they were fantastic, but now, you could argue that you can get the same done with other units.
Personally, I’d only every take Scatter Lasers on the Windriders, if I was running them as Saim-Hann. This is simply because you always want to be moving around with them for protection and objective scoring. Every other time, I’d prob just got Shuriken Cannons as they are assault, str 6 (same as Laser) and also get a good rend on a 6+ to wound. Shuriken Catapults are ok, but they aren’t that much cheaper, and generally you don’t want your Windriders within 12” of the enemy.
As for heavy weapons, I like the Star Cannon most of all if I’m honest. Bright Lances are ok, and are pretty good, but, you’ll generally want them on platforms that aren’t going to be moving or have a 2+ to hit. Str 8 -4 D6 is nice, but at only 1 shot and then hitting on a 4+ after moving isn’t fantastic. Again though, Saim-Hann Vypers keep the 3+ to hit, but, you’d then need to take multiple of them to ensure decent damage output. The best platform for Bright Lances, in my mind, is the Crimson Hunters/Exarch.
Shuriken Cannons, are pretty much the go to weapon and are cheap enough to spam.
Missile Launchers generally don’t get used, due to their cost, and the Bright Lance being cheaper.
Stationary War Walker units can be fantastic fire support bases as well, but, the cost can start to add up pretty quickly.
Guardian Heavy Weapon Platforms are great. Not only do they provide an extra source of high firepower if you need it, it can also help keep the Guardian squad alive longer by tanking the wounds for the Guardians.
Horde killing depends on a lot of things, but, for example, a 190 point squad of Guardians can, on average, kill 20 GEQ on the turn they arrive from the webway. (Yes, yes, it’s not “cost effective” as such, before people say it, but, it is effective at killing the units.)
A Squad of 3 Shuriken Cannon Windriders will put out 9 str 6 shots a turn, Shining Spear units can dish out a lot of damage with their twin-catapults when taken in big numbers.
Wave Serpents, are fantastic as well. Beefy platform and with 3 Cannons, can put out the same amount of shots as 3 Windriders.
Hawks, are, ok, but, I wouldn’t rely on them killing a unit every turn.
Shadow Spectres, from Forgeworld, are still pretty decent at horde clearing as well. They got a points increase in Chapter Approved, but, they are still some fantastic models and can put out the damage with their flamer weapons.
Final option is the most expensive of all, but a big unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard will melt whatever they shoot their flamers at… You just have to get them there first
The sword is an obvious choice for the Wraithlord and the axes/shields seem the best for the Wriathblades, but what guns should I chuck on the lord?
I am for long range weapons for Lord. Yeah, yeah, you hit on 4s, but hitting on 4s is better than crawling after a lascannon shot for multiple turns into enemy deploy to do anything.
IMO, there is no reason to take Scatters on Windriders, even if they are Saim-hann. Windriders are one of the few units that actually benefit from Battle Focus, which does nothing for Scatters. Shuricannon bikes, otoh, can advance a full 6" and shoot without penalty. This effectively gives both weapons a similar range.
The Shuricannon also benefits more from Doom for that sweet AP -3. Even without Doom, Shuricannons put out about as much damage against all other units than Scatters. 25% more shots means nothing when the enemy still gets full amour saves (possibly with cover). The chance to roll 6's for the Shuricannon make them a much more viable choice than the Scatter laser.
The only exception would be units that rely on invuls, which is mostly just Daemons. Having Hemlocks can Jinx tends to fix them though.
This effectively gives both weapons a similar range.
Threat range. While giving enemy better range to engage and kill bikes.
True, but if you are moving into range with the Shuricannons and you cannot effectively remove all threats within 18-24" of them (with them or with help from other units), you shouldn't move to that position in the first place. No doubt Shuricannons take more skill to use, but as long as you have that skill, Shuricannons are the clear best choice.
Spartacus wrote: No need to take the 'Eye on Distant Events' WT for your Autarch, a Banshee Mask does the same thing for free!
I am playing a Codex autarch. If you feel comfortable taking Index options then by all means, pick a better Warlord trait. +1 Wound and 6+++ is quite nice.
You can use the Index Autarch's wargear options and the Codex Autarch's rules. There's no reason to limit yourself to only the Codex Autarch's wargear options.
Incognito15 wrote: Just a quick thought. Looking for some anti infantry in my list. Not anti guardsmen as my Guardians have that covered but anti 2+/3+ infantry.
Looking over the book would you say that Fire Prisms fill that void?
Fire Prism's are fine general purpose tools. Our main anti heavy infantry weapon is really Star Cannons as they both get through the armour and also do multiple wounds which is important for dealing with bikes/primaris etc.
If you’re only taking squads of 5 models, then the Hemlock certainly has the ability to wipe a unit a turn. Reliable, if not the cheapest way to do it.
Likewise, Fire Dragons can do the damage as well, whilst also providing a solid threat to vehicles. Again, expensive though.
Star Cannons are probably the best option though. 2 shots, Str 6, -3, D3 dmg. It then becomes your choice of desired platform. A Crimson Hunter Exarch could do this if you didn’t need the Bright Lances.
Alternatively, you could run Star Cannon Wave Serpents, and spam their MW output
I like Wraithguard with D-scythes for dealing with 2+/3+ infantry. The can reliably delete a 10-man Tac squad or 5 Primaris Marines with a single volley and are almost as good vs tanks/MCs too (unlike Starcannons which struggle to wound big targets with S6). They need a Wave Serpent to carry them but that is not a big hardship as it is one of the best Transports in the game.
Im running a list with a Crimson Hunter and Drukhari Ravagers so dont need the anti tank but I love the versatility and survivability.
If you're already running ravagers, why not use some disintegrators? They reliably kill terminators, bikers and primaris, and fire a shot more than a starcannon.
I'm assuming "ravagers" means two. You could add a third one and give each of them two lances and a disintegrator. This way you'd only lose two lances when a ravager dies, and you'd also only lose one disintegrator.
Trashpanda wrote: My shadow specters have no trouble killing heavy infantry, particularly with guide, and can be quite resilient as well.
They have no trouble killing heavy infantry (then again, not a lot does this edition), but once you start to factor in that point cost, things become a lot more prohibitive for the poor spectres.
My answer for anti-elite infantry is indeed Fire prisms and Hemlocks. Also don't underestimate a Doom + Jink combo with a ton of shuriken shots. Should take out Marines as if they were guardsmen.
Trashpanda wrote: My shadow specters have no trouble killing heavy infantry, particularly with guide, and can be quite resilient as well.
They have no trouble killing heavy infantry (then again, not a lot does this edition), but once you start to factor in that point cost, things become a lot more prohibitive for the poor spectres.
Oh yeah they are a little expensive, in terms of cost per model they are up there with reapers. But I like their speed, assault weapons mean no penalty for moving, - 1 to hit, potential - 2 if you go alaitoc, plus 3+ save and flamer mode for overwatch makes them difficult to take down. Add in guide and they can generate a huge amount of shots, they always seem to pull their weight for me.
Galef wrote: My answer for anti-elite infantry is indeed Fire prisms and Hemlocks. Also don't underestimate a Doom + Jink combo with a ton of shuriken shots. Should take out Marines as if they were guardsmen.
Oh yeah they are a little expensive, in terms of cost per model they are up there with reapers. But I like their speed, assault weapons mean no penalty for moving, - 1 to hit, potential - 2 if you go alaitoc, plus 3+ save and flamer mode for overwatch makes them difficult to take down. Add in guide and they can generate a huge amount of shots, they always seem to pull their weight for me.
Not sure if you are aware....but right now you are the choir preaching to the priest. Fafnir has been the biggest advocate of Spectres this edition. Since the price hike he has been a bit salty when they are mentioned. Probably don't stoke the fire on that one : )))))
Simply put, it doesn't matter what you can get your Spectres to do at their current price point. There is always going to be another unit in the book that does it more effectively.
Galef wrote: My answer for anti-elite infantry is indeed Fire prisms and Hemlocks. Also don't underestimate a Doom + Jink combo with a ton of shuriken shots. Should take out Marines as if they were guardsmen.
As we all know, Dark Reapers excel in this role.
I won't take Fire Prisms. I used them in previous editions and had mostly bad luck with them, and Hemlock have no ground control.
So is everyone on the same page concerning Index vs Codex?
I have seen several posts since the release of the Eldar Codex stating that if you use the Path of Command from the index you don't get the updated expanded rules from the Codex version.
It seems to me and so far everyone in the rules section that if you take a warp jump Autarch that you DO indeed get to use the newer rules and the Banshee masks work like the Codex version and not the index version.
admironheart wrote: So is everyone on the same page concerning Index vs Codex?
I have seen several posts since the release of the Eldar Codex stating that if you use the Path of Command from the index you don't get the updated expanded rules from the Codex version.
It seems to me and so far everyone in the rules section that if you take a warp jump Autarch that you DO indeed get to use the newer rules and the Banshee masks work like the Codex version and not the index version.
Is there any controversy on this?
The flowchart pretty much just allows you to take codex datasheets with index wargear options. Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules. Nothing else is said about changing rules used on the datasheet.
So my interpretation is that you would be stuck with the old index PoC rule, if you elect to take a Warp jump Autarch
So I had my first game with Eldar today, at 750pts, and while we didn't get to finish the game, I really enjoyed them.
Wraithlords are fun, and the Windriders were also a lot of fun too, with Shuriken Cannons. Farseer's psychic powers are really nice: casting Doom along with the Shuriken Cannons was awesome synergy that felt quite fun.
Overall I'm really enjoying the manoeuvrability, as I'm coming over from Death Guard who are horrifically slow in comparison, so it's quite a breath of fresh air
The flowchart pretty much just allows you to take codex datasheets with index wargear options. Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules. Nothing else is said about changing rules used on the datasheet.
So my interpretation is that you would be stuck with the old index PoC rule, if you elect to take a Warp jump Autarch
So If I understand your argument, Lets give 2 examples. First if the LasCannon gets a big change in Codex/Chapter Approved that it now has the profile of STR 9 and d3 shots and a price change to go with it. The FAQ flowsheet said you would have to pay for the price increase, but by your reasoning it would still only shoot once at STR 9 if on an index datasheet.
Example 2 Lets say the Index had a sLazerCannon Merry Go Round unit. The only unit with a sLazerCannon. Now in the Codex the sLazerCannon is made a heavy weapon choice. In the Index the sLazerCannon is Str 10 with d6 shots set of rules and in the Codex they changed it to Str 6 and d6 shots. The price would be the Codex version, even though they made the weapon NOT as good. So now your reasoning is that the Index version gets to keep the old powerful rules, but pays the new codex prices as per the FAQ
I just find your reasoning to have so many loopholes. A stone is a stone, this isn't rocket science. Keep it simple as the saying goes.
I don't see any reasoning that would permit a conclusion that the Banshee mask would NOT work like the Codex, and with the same line of thought Path of Command. Justifing any other way could lead to many problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: So I had my first game with Eldar today, at 750pts, and while we didn't get to finish the game, I really enjoyed them.
Wraithlords are fun, and the Windriders were also a lot of fun too, with Shuriken Cannons. Farseer's psychic powers are really nice: casting Doom along with the Shuriken Cannons was awesome synergy that felt quite fun.
Overall I'm really enjoying the manoeuvrability, as I'm coming over from Death Guard who are horrifically slow in comparison, so it's quite a breath of fresh air
I am now using Wraithlords and Windriders as I had written them off early on as not very good.
When he pointed out that the Shuriken Cannon mounted to the Windriders was near the same as ScatLaser was an awesome observation. I really was going for ScatBikes but now will need to playtest it both ways to see what works best.
Its tips like that, is what makes this forum very useful.
The flowchart pretty much just allows you to take codex datasheets with index wargear options. Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules. Nothing else is said about changing rules used on the datasheet.
So my interpretation is that you would be stuck with the old index PoC rule, if you elect to take a Warp jump Autarch
So If I understand your argument, Lets give 2 examples. First if the LasCannon gets a big change in Codex/Chapter Approved that it now has the profile of STR 9 and d3 shots and a price change to go with it. The FAQ flowsheet said you would have to pay for the price increase, but by your reasoning it would still only shoot once at STR 9 if on an index datasheet.
Example 2 Lets say the Index had a sLazerCannon Merry Go Round unit. The only unit with a sLazerCannon. Now in the Codex the sLazerCannon is made a heavy weapon choice. In the Index the sLazerCannon is Str 10 with d6 shots set of rules and in the Codex they changed it to Str 6 and d6 shots. The price would be the Codex version, even though they made the weapon NOT as good. So now your reasoning is that the Index version gets to keep the old powerful rules, but pays the new codex prices as per the FAQ
I just find your reasoning to have so many loopholes. A stone is a stone, this isn't rocket science. Keep it simple as the saying goes.
I don't see any reasoning that would permit a conclusion that the Banshee mask would NOT work like the Codex, and with the same line of thought Path of Command. Justifing any other way could lead to many problems.
You'd best read my post again. 'Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules'.
So in both of your examples things would be just as you say, whenever wargear changes you always use the most up-to-date information.
However, GWs flowchart explicitly only applies to wargear options as I clearly stated, and we are not talking about wargear in the case of Path of Command. Its a rule listed on the datasheet. Whenever you use a datasheet from the index (which we are for the warp jump Autarch), use all applicable rules listed on that datasheet exactly as written unless otherwise stated. New datasheets in the codex have nothing to do with it.
I think the distinction Spartacus is making is that you would use the codex PoC for all autarchs with index or codex wargear EXCEPT warp jump autarchs since they do not have a codex entry.
darkarchonlord wrote: I think the distinction Spartacus is making is that you would use the codex PoC for all autarchs with index or codex wargear EXCEPT warp jump autarchs since they do not have a codex entry.
And more specifically, the other Codex Autarchs have the new wording, whereas the Index Warp Jump Autarch has the old wording specifically list on the Datasheet. If the WJ Autarch only had PoC on its datasheet, but NOT the rule itself (because it was listed on another page in the Index), you could use the Codex wording.
Is there a way to transport Wraithlords at all? I'm finding she either chills around because everything else gets everywhere faster or she dies before she gets anywhere
Ah okay. I guess 8" +advancing wouldn't take too long to run around, I was probably being a little too cautious with her. And I looked at Quicken but it only effects infantry and bikers
darkarchonlord wrote: I think the distinction Spartacus is making is that you would use the codex PoC for all autarchs with index or codex wargear EXCEPT warp jump autarchs since they do not have a codex entry.
And more specifically, the other Codex Autarchs have the new wording, whereas the Index Warp Jump Autarch has the old wording specifically list on the Datasheet.
If the WJ Autarch only had PoC on its datasheet, but NOT the rule itself (because it was listed on another page in the Index), you could use the Codex wording.
No, actually that is being debated too, since the rules always carry a page reference. For example, many think that if you take a psyker with no codex datasheet (there aren't, it's only for debate sake) then you can use the old conceal, since it refers to the page with the old powers.
So, in most cases it seems like two units of 3 Windriders is better than a unit of 6, as a unit of 6 would easily be shot to pieces. But I was thinking of using the Alaitoc attribute, along with accompanying the bikes with a warlock to cast conceal on them. Then I thought, for a cool moment, I could use the strat that places a further -1 on a unit. So, in this case, would I be better off with a unit of 6 Windriders with -2 to hit them for the most part and -3 for a key moment, or would it still be better riding around as two units of 3?
PoC new wording is listed in the codex with army special rules, there really is nothing to debate about what version to use. If anyone is using or wants someone to use the old PoC rules they are a moron.
There are certainly some rules that are more ambiguous that you could debate more but this one is so clear cut it is frustrating to see this being debated again in this thread.
I think the key to using Windriders is to make them unappealing for the enemy to shoot at AND not investing too much into them. This could be due to several factors: 1) Keeping them MSU 3-elf units that zip around near more priority targets like Hemlocks or Spears 2) Making sure other units are closer to the enemy, like Serpents about to unload Dragons or Wraithgaurd. 3) Making them Alaitoc with some additional -1 to hit stacked on
Personally, I own 12 and want to use them as they are some of the first models I ever owned (I've played Saim-Hann style "Corsairs" since 4th ed). I take an Aurtarch Skyrunner w/ Reaper launcher and the Puritanical leader trait and place him in between 2 units of 6. Not taking Morale is great and re-rolling 1s works really well for them. I was going to take the Autarch anyway, so I don't feel like it is an extra investment (like a Warlock would be). And you HAVE to take Alaitoc for them all, not only to get the WL trait, but without the -1 to hit, they just die
Galef wrote: I think the key to using Windriders is to make them unappealing for the enemy to shoot at AND not investing too much into them.
This could be due to several factors:
1) Keeping them MSU 3-elf units that zip around near more priority targets like Hemlocks or Spears
2) Making sure other units are closer to the enemy, like Serpents about to unload Dragons or Wraithgaurd.
3) Making them Alaitoc with some additional -1 to hit stacked on
Personally, I own 12 and want to use them as they are some of the first models I ever owned (I've played Saim-Hann style "Corsairs" since 4th ed). I take an Aurtarch Skyrunner w/ Reaper launcher and the Puritanical leader trait and place him in between 2 units of 6.
Not taking Morale is great and re-rolling 1s works really well for them. I was going to take the Autarch anyway, so I don't feel like it is an extra investment (like a Warlock would be). And you HAVE to take Alaitoc for them all, not only to get the WL trait, but without the -1 to hit, they just die
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It feels like you'd get more use out of them running them as shining spears instead of windriders though. Just convert them up.
Galef wrote: Yes, Spears are better, but some of us actually WANT to use Windriders. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how to make them work.
Yeah, if I was running Windriders, I’d go MSU as well. Likely with Shuriken Cannons and just zip around the mid-field using the 24” range.
Range is the one big thing Windriders have over Spears, so they will likely always be better in objective style missions, as opposed to “go for the tabling” style of play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, I’m at an ITC event this weekend, running my Eldar. It’s a 58 man event, and there are 7 Eldar players, 1 Ynnari (dirty 20 Dark Reapers inside 2 Plasma Obliterators…) and 2 Dark Eldar players going.
Should be an interesting event, and there are some different, but very strong lists going. Lots of Genestealers and Flying Tyrants, Daemons and Primarchs – someone is even taking the new FW Primaris Space Marine Super Heavy tank.
Breakdown seems to be –
Eldar 7
Space Marines 6
Daemons 5
Tyranids 5
Dark Angels 4
Chaos 4
AdMech 4
Astra Militarum 3
Orks 3
Blood Angels 3
Necrons 3
Dark Eldar 2
Custodes 2
Sisters of Battle 2
Ynnari 1
Thousand Sons 1
Imperium Soup 1
Death Guard 1
Grey Knights 1
Nice spread of factions making an appearance! Will have to see how it goes! Based on the lists, there are 5 that I feel I will probably struggle against – but it’ll all depend on what happens in game. Should be fun to try to deal with 52 Genestealers… What’s more, I’m not taking any Dark Reapers!
If you guys had a choice between webway striking 10 Fire Dragons or putting them in a serpent with a spirit seer with Quicken which would you choose? Assume you have a 20 man guardian blob already coming through webway.
Is the additional 2CP worth it?
If you use fire and fade (in the event of webway) and embark in serpent would you be scared that it would get surrounded and destroyed in melee next turn leading to all guys inside dying?
I would go the with the Wave Serpent...but it costs a lot more for its effectiveness. The plus is you get a nice meatshield.
I would like to visit an comparison that Ive noticed is overlooked since the index.
War Walkers vs Vypers.
Ive always held the WW are superior to the vypers. I am taking an army with Vypers in it for thematic reasons but why would you normally choose a Vyper over WW?
Both cost base 50 points.
Both have 6 wounds.
they have 3+ to hit.
Vyper is 16" move (20" for limited time mayber) the WW is 10"
Vyper is 3+ save, WW is 4+ with 5++
Vyper is T5 and WW is T6
Vyper has Fly Keyword
WW is better in hth with 3+ to hit and 2 attacks at STR 5
Vyper at most can take 1 Heavy plus perhaps a Shuriken Cannon. The WW can take a bigger loadout or go the same (the only thing they cannot do is take the cheaper twin linked shuriken catapults)
WW have Battle Focus. So they can Advance and not suffer a penalty if using Shuriken Canons (Vypers have to take Saim Hann){AND this wont work for Assault weapons, just Heavy} [Thus a 2 shuriken cannon loadout on both would limit the Vyper to 16" move vs 10" + d6" for the WW...almost negligible]
WW have the Scout feature for free. A Vyper unit would have to spend CP to get Cloudstrike (which is marginally better)
The Vyper is a Biker keyword so they can benefit from some of the Psychics.
Fly and Biker keyword must have a high value for the designers. Getting out of hth ....is it that valuable for a shooting unit that doesn't plan to get entangled in CC?
This is a shooty version of 40K and LasCannons can drop stuff fast so every shot stopped on the PowerField is kinda good. Either Way if an opponent wants to remove a unit of 3 of either type it can be done on turn 1.
It just seems to me that the War Walker should be 5 to 10 points more than a Vyper.
Vypers 45 points/50 points
War Walkers 50 points/55 points sounds better to me.
Your thoughts on the units and your game experiences?
It depends on the rest of the army composition and the opponent, but usually the serpent would be the ideal choice. The problem with dropping in Dragons is that their short range can make it easy to zone them out with screening units, and they already lose their damage reroll by dropping in. Having to spend a turn inside the Wave Serpent delays their opportunity to get their job, but makes them far more reliable.
First off thanks for the response guys. Very informative. I'm a noob to the tourney scene and am going to one here shortly so trying to soak up info from more experienced players. My list is already locked in and is as follows:
Gangrel767 wrote: So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?
I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.
No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.
This is a shooty version of 40K and LasCannons can drop stuff fast so every shot stopped on the PowerField is kinda good. Either Way if an opponent wants to remove a unit of 3 of either type it can be done on turn 1.
It just seems to me that the War Walker should be 5 to 10 points more than a Vyper.
Vypers 45 points/50 points
War Walkers 50 points/55 points sounds better to me.
Your thoughts on the units and your game experiences?
Have to admit I've only used em once but my 3 x Brightance WWs did a hell of a job recently.
I used them in conjunction with Fortune and at times Guide. Say you get shot at by a 4 lasercannon pred/devs, and they get 3 wounds through. You'll save one with the powerfields, then they will do 7 wounds (on average) with the other 2 hits. Fortune saves 2 of those and you are left with a WW with 1 wound left that doesn't degrade is still shooting next round and the unit intact. It won't last forever but in 8th ed you often don't need long.
They can't take fire from an entire gun line, but careful deployment can avoid that. As long as they can see the thing you have Doomed you're golden.
Gangrel767 wrote: So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?
I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.
No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.
Regarding WW vs Vypers: As much as I prefer Vypers, I will always consider WW better. The main reason for this is the flexibility of having 2 heavy weapons. Vypers have to have 1 weapon be a shuricannon (cuz let's be honest, twin cats are a waste on Vypers).
If Vypers could take 2 BLs, I'd take them over WWs almost every time.
But once you add tactical reserve ability and the 5++, the WW is a no-brainer in comparison.
Personally, I’ve opted for Vypers in my tourney list for this weekend – but that is only because of how my list worked out.
The way I see it, I’d never personally take WWs and I will only take Vypers if I am running a Saim-Hann detachment in the army. Being able to move and shoot without penalty is a great bonus for the Vyper, not to mention access to certain powers and stratagems. WWs for me are more of a “static” unit for me, and if I want a static unit I’d likely just take something else. Sure, their outflank etc is neat, but, you’d still then end up hitting on 4’s if you take anything other than double Shuriken Cannon.
Having FLY is also a massive benefit. You don’t really want either Vypers or WWs in combat, but, on the occasions they do get into combat, you have the benefit of leaving and shooting.
I totally agree Kdash.
As I mentioned, I prefer Vypers too, but objectively, I have to say WW are better.
Just like I agree the Reapers are the best heavy support option we have, but I won't take them because A) they aren't plastic, B) they are T3 and most importantly C) they aren't skimmers/jetbikes and only have a 6" move.
Another important advantage for WWs is that they have a 5++, which matter more for multi-wound models because the guns that will be aimed their way are likely AP -2 or better. Lascannons, for example, only give Vypers a 6+ save.
So while the Vyper is more resilient against small arms fire than WWs, both units are likely not taking small arms fire.
I am a WW fan myself, I normally run my gunline from Beil-tan, farseer and 2 squads of 3 warwalkers. They are durable, accurate, and have a great level of flexibility when picking their weapons. But the real difference is do you need the mobility the vypers offer? If you need to redeploy your force as it was, or get everything moving quickly, that's where vypers edge out ww. Their speed allows a different level of tactical flexibility. But if your not moving them, warwalkers would be better.
Well, WWs aren't exactly slow this edition. Not only do they have the "infiltrate" ability, but M10" (+ Battle focus if you are using Shuricannons) isn't exactly slow.
Then again, if you are using Shuricannons, Vypers are probably just as good.
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They put the Fine in Finecast?
