Got to play against my first chaos list today. I had just lost to the Nids with my list. (first loss to nids this edition) I was mopping up his Nid list but lost on VPs horribly as I missed my only opportunity to grab a load of VPs when I thought I had the Flyrant dead in my sights.

So round 2 I play my pal from 3rd ed. Ive only beat him like once or so ever. He is playing death guard for the 2nd time so still learning.
He had like 8 or so characters, named and otherwise. At first disgusting Resiliance was made about 85% and I thought I was doomed as even my pyskers seemed no match for his onslaught of powers.

On turn 3 two boons happened. First I wiped almost all of his shooty units and the Scenario Objective dropped in one corner where I was just about to remove the last of his units....effectively giving me game. We continued to play.

Wraithlords continued to underperform. Star Cannons actually are of use vs Disgusting Resilance. Loads of shuriken cannon fire of all types cannot ever be underestimated. Having 4 Deny the Witch is a must. My conclave and Seer council with the farseer was the MVP.

the autarch with sniper and reaper launcher has underperformed every game and this was the same.

When Wave serpents are not much of a threat and ignored....using the Wave shield for mortal wounds and the stratagem afterwards is a neat trick to finish off pesky units.

Scat Bikes on the fringes are pretty useful.

I think I may discard my Nova Lance Skyrunner. He is a gamble....either he has targets or he don't. The Shining spears are more than enough. Now what to invest the 100+ points into?

The D cannon finally killed more than it was worth. barely.

Dire Avengers never disappoint.

first game doom wasn't the MVP. Jinx was nice. Will of Asuryan was nice vs the nids but I wish there was a better 2nd power for a Farseer.

For Autarch Skyrunner go Laser Lance, Shimmerplume and Banshee Mask, with the trait that gives +1 wound and the 6+ fnp. I really like the combo, used it once and it did great work, it would be good with a fusion gun too maybe but that's adding cost

Wave Serpents should be taken as much as possible.

Nothing wrong with taking what works.

Asurman, Avatar, spiritseer and 40 Dire Avengers make up the meat of my army. Wave Serpents are the best tank in the game and 3 Shuriken Cannons is awesome.

Add to flavor as necessary.

Having FLY is also a massive benefit. You don’t really want either Vypers or WWs in combat

Well, there are Wasps. They got a price drop, and for some extra gain FLY, DS & an extra wound. Still less efficient than most other HS choices in my opinion (even than something as a venerable Falcon), but it's an option.

The D cannon finally killed more than it was worth. barely.

I think people need to check on Vibro Cannons. They have interesting rule. Problem is, you need like, 6 of them to make use of it and not die before enemy figures them out. They also have respectable range so there shouldn't be any problem at deploying them.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Wave Serpents should be taken as much as possible.

Nothing wrong with taking what works.

Asurman, Avatar, spiritseer and 40 Dire Avengers make up the meat of my army. Wave Serpents are the best tank in the game and 3 Shuriken Cannons is awesome.

Add to flavor as necessary.

how does the army work in game play? I wonder if you can capture objectives enough for vps or you just try to table the other guy?

I typically have rangers sitting on them as the opponent tries to remove 40 4++ wounds and get to the Avatar

I don’t use Reapers as I don’t have any.

Is an IG style Eldar list viable? Lots of Guardians and Fire Prisms and such. Seems kind of cool in my head

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Is an IG style Eldar list viable? Lots of Guardians and Fire Prisms and such. Seems kind of cool in my head

maaaaaaybe a more marine style varient. Lots of wave serpents and guardians . Guardians with heavy weapons platforms poping out of wave serpents doesn't seem too bad. Guardians are really good against hordes (in the context of our own army). While wave serpents are jsut nice durable transports that can bring some anti tank bright lances, and the guardians can also compensate for anti infantry with bright lances.

The fire prisms maybe bring 3 to use the stratagem???

mmimzie wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Is an IG style Eldar list viable? Lots of Guardians and Fire Prisms and such. Seems kind of cool in my head

maaaaaaybe a more marine style varient. Lots of wave serpents and guardians . Guardians with heavy weapons platforms poping out of wave serpents doesn't seem too bad. Guardians are really good against hordes (in the context of our own army). While wave serpents are jsut nice durable transports that can bring some anti tank bright lances, and the guardians can also compensate for anti infantry with bright lances.

The fire prisms maybe bring 3 to use the stratagem???

This seems quite fun. I love Fire Prisms, and they seem to work similarly to Leman Russes. Having guardians with bright lances in shuriken Cannon wave serpents along side a trio of Prisms seems fast and somewhat competitive. I'd bring maybe an autarch to accompany the bulk of the guardians and a Farseer or some warlocks to help. If I could squeeze it in a Hemlock would probably suit as well.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

This seems quite fun. I love Fire Prisms, and they seem to work similarly to Leman Russes. Having guardians with bright lances in shuriken Cannon wave serpents along side a trio of Prisms seems fast and somewhat competitive. I'd bring maybe an autarch to accompany the bulk of the guardians and a Farseer or some warlocks to help. If I could squeeze it in a Hemlock would probably suit as well.

Yes, an Autarch Skyrunner could keep up with the vehicles while still applying his re-roll bubble. Give him the Lance too and he is quite decent in CC. Capable of finishing off weakened squads or counter-charging anything that manages to reach your lines.

I am wondering how a pure Wraith army would do. I have a 1500 Point vanguard list I worked up. Any feedback is appreciated.

HQ:
Warlock (Quicken/Restrain)
Warlock (Empower/Ennervate)

Elites:
5 Wraith Blades (swords)
-Wave Serpent (twin shruiken cannon/twin shruiken catapult)
5 Wraith Guard (D-Scythes)
-Wave Serpent (twin shruiken cannon/twin shruiken catapult)
5 Wraith Guard (D-Scythes)
-Wave Serpent (twin shruiken cannon/twin shruiken catapult)
5 Wraith Guard (D-Scythes)

Heavy Support:
3 Dark Reapers
3 Dark Reapers

Tenative plan is webway teleport in a squad of Wraith Guard with the quicken Warlock, use Quicken to close the inch needed for the D-Scythes, and drive Wraiths around in really good transports while the Dark Reapers do their thing.

I worry about how few models it is and how fragile but the damage output is pretty solid.

Thoughts?

Fire prisms are great and you take three for overkill and as you have to one to sacrifice.

 stalkerzero wrote:
I am wondering how a pure Wraith army would do. I have a 1500 Point vanguard list I worked up. Any feedback is appreciated.

HQ:
Warlock (Quicken/Restrain)
Warlock (Empower/Ennervate)

If you can squeeze 20 points out somewhere to upgrade these to Spiritseers, it would be well worth it. Double the wounds makes them a lot less of a liability to Perils and the Spiritmark ability is handy on the Wraithblades. Plus you get the full-fat version of Smite rather than the nerfed Destructor. Also I would take Protect/Jinx over Empower/Ennervate. Wraithguard with a 2+ save (or 1+ in cover) are harder to shift than curry stains on a white shirt. Also good to Jinx a unit that it going to be facing massed Shuircannon fire if your D-scythes etc are busy elsewhere.

 stalkerzero wrote:

Tenative plan is webway teleport in a squad of Wraith Guard with the quicken Warlock, use Quicken to close the inch needed for the D-Scythes.

Risky! One poor roll or one sucessful Deny and that squad with D-scythes is going to be sitting there looking very silly or very dead (probably both). Drop in just normal Wraithcannon dudes so you can guarantee their ability to shoot. If you opponent bubble-wraps his juiciest targets, use the Wave Serpents to clear the chaff on turn 1 and then drop the Wraithguard on Turn 2.

 Karhedron wrote:

 stalkerzero wrote:
I am wondering how a pure Wraith army would do. I have a 1500 Point vanguard list I worked up. Any feedback is appreciated.

HQ:
Warlock (Quicken/Restrain)
Warlock (Empower/Ennervate)

If you can squeeze 20 points out somewhere to upgrade these to Spiritseers, it would be well worth it. Double the wounds makes them a lot less of a liability to Perils and the Spiritmark ability is handy on the Wraithblades. Plus you get the full-fat version of Smite rather than the nerfed Destructor. Also I would take Protect/Jinx over Empower/Ennervate. Wraithguard with a 2+ save (or 1+ in cover) are harder to shift than curry stains on a white shirt. Also good to Jinx a unit that it going to be facing massed Shuircannon fire if your D-scythes etc are busy elsewhere.

 stalkerzero wrote:

Tenative plan is webway teleport in a squad of Wraith Guard with the quicken Warlock, use Quicken to close the inch needed for the D-Scythes.

Risky! One poor roll or one sucessful Deny and that squad with D-scythes is going to be sitting there looking very silly or very dead (probably both). Drop in just normal Wraithcannon dudes so you can guarantee their ability to shoot. If you opponent bubble-wraps his juiciest targets, use the Wave Serpents to clear the chaff on turn 1 and then drop the Wraithguard on Turn 2.

To add on Karhedron advice dropping one squad from D-scythes to Wraithcannon, free you with 25 points enough to at least upgrade a Warlock to Spiritseer and using the webway also allow you to shield the Dark reapers into one Serpent (remember vehicles no longer have squad limitations so you can put several units inside) while the Wraithcannons still can hit at 12" after arriving from Webway strike.

If you put high cost units like reapers or wraiths into a serpent. .... It is nice to have 1 or 2 chump models on board so if the tank dies you can remove the low cost pieces.

 Karhedron wrote:

 stalkerzero wrote:
I am wondering how a pure Wraith army would do. I have a 1500 Point vanguard list I worked up. Any feedback is appreciated.

HQ:
Warlock (Quicken/Restrain)
Warlock (Empower/Ennervate)

If you can squeeze 20 points out somewhere to upgrade these to Spiritseers, it would be well worth it. Double the wounds makes them a lot less of a liability to Perils and the Spiritmark ability is handy

All wraith is all wraith. Spiritseer is specifically designed for wraith and 2x as good as any Warlock.

Take as many as you can/need.

And killing a wave serpent is no easy feat, even with dedicated tank hunting.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Fire prisms are great and you take three for overkill and as you have to one to sacrifice.

Yeah I’m so glad Fire Prisms are actually good, loved the old models back in the day and the updated ones look even cooler so I’m keen to get some

I would really like to use wraithlords as the models are awesome and plenty of options. Just do not survive well.

Maybe if they had at least an inv save?

Hi guys quick question. My guys are painted Ulthwé. Love Ulthwé. I'm thinking of repainting them Mymeara because they can pick any attribute and I also love the scheme. If I let's say pick Alaitoc for their attribute, does that let me use Alaitoc specific stratagems? I want to say no because I'm using their rules, but I'm not that craftworld.

XShadow wrote:
Hi guys quick question. My guys are painted Ulthwé. Love Ulthwé. I'm thinking of repainting them Mymeara because they can pick any attribute and I also love the scheme. If I let's say pick Alaitoc for their attribute, does that let me use Alaitoc specific stratagems? I want to say no because I'm using their rules, but I'm not that craftworld.

Yes and no. Having Mymeara as your Craftworld would negate the Alaitoc specific Stratagems and Relics. However, there is no reason you can't just say you are Craftworld Alaitoc for all rules purposes. Rules and paint schemes aren't tied together, so I don't think anyone will raise a stink if you have Alaitoc for rules and Mymeara for fluff/paint.

So, a little run down of how I did at the LCO, 6 game ITC event over the weekend. My 1st 8th ed event and first ITC event! My list was as follows –
Alaitoc Battalion
Spiritseer – Conceal
Spiritseer – Empower
Farserr – Guide + Fortune
20 man Guardians + 2 Shuriken Cannons
2x 5 Dire Avengers (one with double catapult)
Wave Serpent – triple Shuriken Cannon and Spiritstones
2x Hemlocks

Saim-Hann Outrider
Autarch Skyrunner – Nova Lance Relic, Reaper Launcher, Banshee Mask, Warlord, Sniper Trait
1x 9 Shining Spears
1x 3 Shining Spears
1x 2 Vyper – Starcannons + Shuriken Cannons

Biel-Tan Supreme Command
Farseer Skyrunner – Doom + Executioner
Warlock Skyrunner – Protect
Warlock Skyrunner – Quicken + Biel-Tan Psyker Relic

First game, I was up against Blood Angels, containing Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Scouts, Libby Dread and a Landraider Crusader, and several named Characters.
This was my biggest win of the event, and the biggest scoring round in the event, with me taking 38 out of 42 points due to tabling and missing out on the mission bonus points.

Second game, somehow, on table 1, was against Necrons. Not much to say here, other than it was Hammer and Anvil deployment. Another big scoring round for me. Complete mis-match for the Necron player, but, we turned it into a great laugh!

Third game was against a Chaos/Deathguard/Daemons list. It had Mortarian, Ahirman, Typhus, Changling (Chaos Daemons Codex was not used for this event due the list deadlines), 20 poxwalkers, 3x 10 brimstomes, 1x3 nurglines, nurgle daemon prince, Necrodermis? And 3 Chaos Decimators.
He managed to Seize on me. The Decimators (hitting on 5’s) managed to take out my Wave Serpent 1st turn and caused it to explode. Mortarian then got a 1st turn charge off, and essentially it meant the end for the vast majority of my support characters as I placed them a couple of inches too close and didn’t do my disembark well at all. In my turn he then denied my Doom cast, so it then took 2 turns to kill Morty instead of just 1. As a result all my impact units, bar the Hemlocks were dead by my turn 3. I then made a mistake with one of my Hemlocks which cost me another couple of points, along with thinking taking The Reaper as a secondary was a good idea. Lost in the end on points, but would have been a lot closer if I’d played smarter or not been seized on.

Last game of day 1 was against Ultramarines. BobbyG, Leviathan Dread (stormcannons), Stormhawk, Redemptor, Hellblasters, Scouts, Tiggy, Techmarine, Apothacary and 3 units of marines with 2 AssCan Razorbacks. I got tabled. My head was gone at this point and I just made too many mistakes. 9-man Spear unit charged in, killed everything in the shooting and charging, but, BobbyG then killed 90% of the squad straight after. Leviathan Dread with re-rolls from BobbyG just nuked a Hemlock a turn and the Razorbacks (felt like) they had unlimited shots just chewed through everything else. Told myself before the game to kill the Leviathan first… Then didn’t bother at all in game… Yeah… On the plus side, my Autarch, with only 1 wound left, killed his Stormhawk in one turn from full HP!

Day 2, started out rough as well. First game was up against another Morty, 18 World Eater Berserkers in Rhinos, 60 Alpha Legion Cultists, 2 lots of Slaanesh Obliterators, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer and other buffing characters. He got first turn, but, thankfully failed all his psychic powers! However, his blob of 40 cultists managed to bring down 4 out of the 9 Spears and I had to deploy my Autarch out on a flank due to the scenario (characters must hold 3 out of 5 objectives) with the other 3 Spears. As a result, Morty survived my first turn, the Berserkers got out of the Rhinos, and then proceeded to kill 80% of my army in one turn with their massive pill in moves, re-rolls from a Dark Apostle, and fighting twice before I could even try to swing back. Once again, I survived to the end of the game, but, despite having 7 characters, I didn’t get the bonus points at all, all game. Lowest points game for me all event, only getting 8 :(

Final game, was against tank spam Guard. 1 Manitcore with Trojan support, 3 Medusa mortars, 3 battle cannon Russes, 2 Inferno cannon Hellhounds, 2 Wyverns and a Basilsk. Backed up by 3 squads of Infantry, an Astropath, 2 Primaris Psykers and a Company Commander with the Dagger Relic. I put the big unit of Spears in the Webway as we were playing hammer and Anvil and couldn’t risk losing them early on – however, I then failed to cast Quicken, even with a re-roll! They were then out of range of charging the tanks, as I’d already nuked the screens. However, a 2+/3++/5+++ unit that has -1 to hit and 2 wounds a model is a complete nightmare for Guard to kill. He only managed to kill 2 of the 9 in his first turn, which meant I was able to start locking tanks up in my 2nd turn with them. Auatch shone here again. Hitting on 2’s with 6 attacks at str 8 and re-rolling due to doom, he was able to kill a tank a turn. Unfortunately, the Spears, not having the benefit of Doom didn’t do even half as well vs the tanks, only chipping off half a dozen wounds in total a turn as I couldn’t keep up with my Empower Spiritseer. Hemlocks again, did some great work over a couple of turns, until I gave my opponent the benefit of the doubt which resulted in one of the 2 having to fly off the table :(

Overall, it was a 3 win, 3 loss event for me which placed me 22nd out of 58. (+40 points per win, and 20 for a draw), which I was pretty happy with overall considering how the last 2 games of day 1 went. I also placed as either 1st or 2nd Eldar/Ynnari/Dark Eldar player at the event, whilst also being the only one not taking Dark Reapers!
Out of a total of 492 possible points, I ended up with 254, meaning I scored a very decent (in my view) 134 points in Primaries and Secondaries, an average of 22.3 out of 42 a game! On another plus, I only gave up 120 points in Primaries and Secondaries – and that was due to getting smashed by Berserkers in one game. Discounting that game, I gave up 88 points – something which a lot of my opponents commented on after, at how hard it was to max secondaries against me.
So, some thoughts after the games.

Shining Spears are fantastic if they get the psychic support I gave them each turn. I only put them in the webway in 2 of the 6 games, as I felt the threat to them was minimum. This let me put the Farseer in deep-strike alongside the Guardians. (though, I kept forgetting to cast powers with him…) However, if you don’t get the powers off, they seemed to struggle a lot. They also suffer massively against Mortarion. Their 6” lance range really turns them into a glass hammer unit. If they fail to kill the big target, things like Mortarion destroy them in the following turn, especially with his mortal wound aura as well.
20-man Guardian blob with 2 Cannons is fantastic (even more so when you remember Guide…). They were able to consistently drop down and wipe out units, whilst also providing a surprisingly resilient blob for helping to score points like recon. If I had been smarter, I would have taken Behind Enemy Lines as a secondary every game and just racked up the points.

Autarch. I would personally take him with this loadout every single time (locking him into Saim-Hann), but I would probably take a different warlord trait. Out of 6 games, it only really came into effect in game 6, and even then, it didn’t do a great deal. The amount of times I got CP back at the start of the game when using webway strike was surprising. (deploy Autarch first, then use webway)

Hemlocks, love them. They did a lot of work each game, but, at the same time, weren’t really removing priority units each turn. I’m starting to think a better role for them is to go after ground units and things like transports to just keep up the killing pressure, rather than hope I can do damage to things like Primarchs, whilst being fantastic units for picking up secondary points.

Vypers. I took them because I wanted more str 6 -3ap shots, and needed to fill out the Saim-Hann Outrider. Next time I think I’ll just spend the 150 points on 2 squads of Swooping Hawks. They just didn’t do much for me at all, which was a shame.

Dire Avengers – took them because GW decided to not have Rangers in stock for like 2 months. They didn’t do much for me except deploy in the Wave Serpent and maybe score primary/secondary points for me. Definitely think swapping to Rangers and another Guardian unit is the way forward.

Spiritseers, again, besides having one to cast Empower in 2 out of 6 games, they were pretty useless as well. The impact they have overall was pretty low.

I also think the Biel-Tan detachment was unnecessary. I took it for the relic allowing re-rolls on Quicken, but, having the +1 to cast stratagem for the warlock and the farseer with doom/executioner made it pretty irrelevant. Didn’t get much use out of the Biel-Tan re-roll 1’s either.

So, some changes going forward.

3rd flyer I think is a definite plus. Hemlock of Crimson Hunter Exarch – likely the Exarch. The threat they provide, whilst able to pick up secondary points is fantastic.

Dire Avengers, Spiritseers would prob get dropped completely. Likely go for a squad of 10 Guardians with Cannon and a unit of Rangers. The Guardians would then use the Wave Serpent initially. If points are short, I’d drop the Serpent and go for Rangers.

Vypers would go, replaced by Swooping Hawks to keep the Saim-Hann Outrider. They just didn’t do enough. They nearly always survived though.

I’m also considering dropping the unit of 3 Spears. They existed purely as a bodyguard for the Autarch. They did the job well, but didn’t have the resilience of the bigger squad. The only thing they would change to though is maybe 1 unit of 3 Dark Reapers, but then, is just 3 really worth it?

Certainly, some food for thought!

#TL: DR
You don’t need Dark Reaper Spam to win games at tournaments!

Kdash great detailed feedback on your results.

This helped me a great deal!

I've used the Guardian blob (mine are Biel Tan) a couple of times and while on paper they are great I guess I'm not using them correctly. What type of targets did you go after?

I have 1 hemlock (Alaitoc) but he gets done pretty quick if you go against jump infantry since his weapon range is so short and overwatch just can't kill enough. Again I need to use it better.

You said your Shining Spears were -1 to hit but that your Spiritseers were useless, you didn't mix up your craftworld traits I'm hoping?

Also Autarch Skyrunner with Shimmerplume and the +1 wound and 6+ fnp trait is so resilient and so good, but Nova Lance probably better if going Saim-hann

My 1st 8th ed event and first ITC event! My list was as follows

Happy you did well with your list. I think something can be evaluated from stripping your list to it's most basic parts to see what exactly plays in it and "carries":

Farseer (Doom & another power)
2 Spiritseers (Protect & Quicken for Spears gamble, maybe Seer of SVector for a re-roll on one of them)
20 Guardians (say you want platforms, so 190 pts)
2x5 DAs
Serpent (3 SC)
2 Hemlocks
9 Shining Spears
2x1 Vypers for objective grabbin or anything else (5 hawks, minimum squads of bikes, whatever - more or less equal price there)
~1485 points.

This looks like quite a brutal list for 1500 points to me. Minimalistic, but with all the right tools. We're even left with some points.

Now, I don't think I would be completely incorrect when I say that that is the real meat here which does all the job, while every extra you added to 2000 pts, like Biel Tan detachment, just weakened the list in my opinion, while squeezing more squads into the list (like serpents with guardians, or an extra flyer) would be a lot better.

Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids. Also, can someone explain the interrupt strategem for DS units that shoot out of turn, and how to deal with that.

 Dynas wrote:
Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids. Also, can someone explain the interrupt strategem for DS units that shoot out of turn, and how to deal with that.

Don't come out of reserves in LoS of any Reaper unit within 6" of a Farseer. Simple.
The stratagem only requires the unit be close to a farseer and have LoS to an enemy that came out of reserves.

Just have a Hive Tyrant or two fly up and kill all the Reapers with his devourers turn 1 and you'll be fine.

-

 Dynas wrote:
Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids. Also, can someone explain the interrupt strategem for DS units that shoot out of turn, and how to deal with that.

The Forwarned Strategem only works if the Farseer is within 6" (not much you can do) AND the unit shooting (Reapers/Bikes/Vypers most likely) MUST have los. So try to come in from reserves where your unit is on the other side of some los blocking terrain.


Remember they can do this stratagem only once per turn.....so lead with a 'bluff' unit. They must use Forwarned IMMEDIATELY. So either they waste the shots on a unit not so dangerous or you drop it in and wait another turn to bring in your reserves so that they did not get the extra round of shooting.

Reapers die to Hive Guard with those indirect fire guns.
Reapers die to any massed small arms fire provided you can get near them without a bubble wrap.
Reapers can die to Biovores /sporemines

Shining Spears are tough in CC but only when they charge. If they fail to wipe the unit they are less of a threat the next round.
With that in mind do as many heroic interventions that you can. Try to consolidate as many units as you can into them on his turn. Then on your turn they will do marginal damage at STR 3 and you can whittle them down.

Not much other than shoot shoot shoot....oh they die from Smite!!!

Things become more complicated if Spears are Ynnari though.

Consider Kronos, and deep strike something Kronos (Mawlock?) to make Eldar uncomfortable at casting. Eldar bikes fall p. easy in close combat, even Spears, and Tyranids are good at it.
And yeah, if you failed to counter Protect/Conceal or whatever on Spears, and Eldar also is ready to use Lightning Fast Reactions, use Mortal Wounds and melee. Shooting them would just mean wasting your firepower.

Hell, I think proper Tyranid on foot should have some mobility and things to be close in terms of speed against Eldar with all our Fly and our own spells and stratagems.

 Dynas wrote:
Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids.

Throw a dart at your codex and take the unit it lands on. Basically everything Tyranids have is better than anything Craftworlds has.

If you want a more specific answer. Mix your threats. A mix and match of Genestealers, Exocrines, Biovores, Zoanthropes, and Warriors is simply too many threats for Craftworld to ever practically deal with. Whatever they decide to kill will leave them getting tabled by what they didn't choose.

 admironheart wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids. Also, can someone explain the interrupt strategem for DS units that shoot out of turn, and how to deal with that.

The Forwarned Strategem only works if the Farseer is within 6" (not much you can do) AND the unit shooting (Reapers/Bikes/Vypers most likely) MUST have los. So try to come in from reserves where your unit is on the other side of some los blocking terrain.

Remember they can do this stratagem only once per turn.....so lead with a 'bluff' unit. They must use Forwarned IMMEDIATELY. So either they waste the shots on a unit not so dangerous or you drop it in and wait another turn to bring in your reserves so that they did not get the extra round of shooting.

Yeah he had a Farseet camping with a giant blob of Deathreapers. he burned forwarned and the strategems that rerolls hit or wounds or something. 4 cp in total.

The IMMEDIATELY part....Son of a... so if I DS any other unit first, like say a unit of rippers, and they are within LoS, he has to use it then or not at all? If so, then this guy totally cheated me...

Shining Spears are tough in CC but only when they charge. If they fail to wipe the unit they are less of a threat the next round.
With that in mind do as many heroic interventions that you can. Try to consolidate as many units as you can into them on his turn. Then on your turn they will do marginal damage at STR 3 and you can whittle them down.

Yeah and they are fast, a unit of 9 took out 2 carnifex in one turn.

No he DOES NOT have to use the Forwarned stratagem. So if you bring in your Rippers. He don't have to use Forwarned. If he does then the rest of your reserves is safe to bring in.

If he don't use it....then consider waiting til next turn to bring in the next reserve unit.

That Immediately part I was playing incorrect for a while.

Just this past game I looked and say that my Ghost Helm ONLY works once on Deny the Witch Rolls. I assumed it worked on all of them. Not sure if I ever did it wrong in past games.....but now I know and I wont make that mistake again.

It is little things on the Strategems/Gears that players overlook and then bang you screwed someone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh other Strategems that get misused are the Fire And Fade...it is right after that unit shoots....don't forget that.

I also think some of the defensive strategems are at the beginning of the opponents shooting phase. Which means before they even select a unit, before they target a unit....you have to burn the CPs.

That leads the opponent to decide not to shoot that unit that turn perhaps. You cannot do it after the opponent has selected to shoot at that unit....that is kinda cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think PathFinders and Lightning Fast Reflexes both may fall into that category.....don't have the cards in front of me.

Just this past game I looked and say that my Ghost Helm ONLY works once on Deny the Witch Rolls.

Er, what? You mean Runes of Farseer?

Not sure what defensive stratagems you're talking about either.

Pathfinders must be declared at the beginning of the enemy shooting phase, Lighting fast reflexes only when a unit is selected as target in the shooting phase.

As per the Ghosthelm it works always vs Mortal wounds, just with extra bonus vs perils of the warp ones.

Yes I meant Runes of the Farseer. is used only ONCE per psychic phase.

And Lord Pervesor clarified the others

thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Concordance of Power seems to be used after you made the casting roll...BUT prior to the Deny the Witch roll from your opponent.

Potentially losing a CP with his success.....so try to do that Strategem only when no enemy pyskers are within 24"

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
Kdash great detailed feedback on your results.

This helped me a great deal!

I've used the Guardian blob (mine are Biel Tan) a couple of times and while on paper they are great I guess I'm not using them correctly. What type of targets did you go after?

I have 1 hemlock (Alaitoc) but he gets done pretty quick if you go against jump infantry since his weapon range is so short and overwatch just can't kill enough. Again I need to use it better.

Mine were Alaitoc, simply because of the battalion - otherwise they prob would have been Biel-Tan, in which case i wouldn't have deployed the Farseer with them most of the time as they'd be re-rolling 1's anyway. Target wise, i was generally going for basic infantry squads first. Might not always be the "best mathhammer" targets, but it applied pressure on their side of the table. 1 unit of 20, with Guide, can often take out 2 units of 10 GEQ, or a couple of units of Marine Scouts. If i was targetting a MEQ squad i'd just put everything into them.

To be fair, the only time my Hemlocks died, was either due to a re-rolling hits and wounds Leviathan and when one that was already low on wounds got charged by a Daemon Prince or Mortarian. I agree though, the overwatch can sometimes feel very lacklustre, but against most 5 man squads they are a big deterrent. For example, game 1 vs the Blood Angels, he decided to turn 1 deep-strike his 8-man Sanguinary Guard and then charge one of my Hemlocks... Needless to say, 4 died, i survived and just flew off after.

Another option for Hemlocks which i don't see people doing often, is extra deployment screening. If you're likely to get turn 1 charged, putting the Hemlocks in the way to begin with means your opponent has a massive amount of extra space to get around before they can get into your lines. But, i tended to find that taking Recon and 2 flyers is easy points.


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 Korlandril wrote:
You said your Shining Spears were -1 to hit but that your Spiritseers were useless, you didn't mix up your craftworld traits I'm hoping?

Also Autarch Skyrunner with Shimmerplume and the +1 wound and 6+ fnp trait is so resilient and so good, but Nova Lance probably better if going Saim-hann

I used the stratagem on them, to make them -1 to hit a couple of times. Expensive when i only started each game with 7 (-1 for 2nd relic) and then spending 3 on webway (but usually getting at least 1 back from the Autarch).

Personally, I think, if I go Autarch Skyrunner, I’d always go Saim-hann. The 12” range on the lance, plus the extra dmg on a 6 to wound, is so nice. It also gives him that little extra small bit of protection over the standard 6” lance.

If I was going to go with the Shimmerplume, I’d prob put it on an Autarch with Wings – but, one of the sole reasons for taking an Autarch is for his abilities when he is the Warlord, and having my warlord likely within 12” of the enemy lines and at T3 kinda worries me. I could deploy him at the back just for the re-roll 1’s etc, but then the Shimmerplume is useless vs everything but snipers.



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 Shadenuat wrote:

My 1st 8th ed event and first ITC event! My list was as follows

Happy you did well with your list. I think something can be evaluated from stripping your list to it's most basic parts to see what exactly plays in it and "carries":

Farseer (Doom & another power)
2 Spiritseers (Protect & Quicken for Spears gamble, maybe Seer of SVector for a re-roll on one of them)
20 Guardians (say you want platforms, so 190 pts)
2x5 DAs
Serpent (3 SC)
2 Hemlocks
9 Shining Spears
2x1 Vypers for objective grabbin or anything else (5 hawks, minimum squads of bikes, whatever - more or less equal price there)
~1485 points.

This looks like quite a brutal list for 1500 points to me. Minimalistic, but with all the right tools. We're even left with some points.

Now, I don't think I would be completely incorrect when I say that that is the real meat here which does all the job, while every extra you added to 2000 pts, like Biel Tan detachment, just weakened the list in my opinion, while squeezing more squads into the list (like serpents with guardians, or an extra flyer) would be a lot better.

I agree, however, I’d argue that the Dire Avengers practically did nothing over the course of the 6 games, and i would take a warlock and farseer on bikes over a standard farseer and spiritseer everyday. The benefit of the Seer Council stratagem is way to big to leave out from what i found in my games. Only once being a real factor in terms of scoring/helping to score points. My idea with them was to hold objectives etc, but I found that they would either die way to quickly, or that I had other units around the objectives anyway, so they kinda felt a little redundant.
Personally, I like the Doom/Executioner combo on a jetbike Farseer. Once the big target had gone down via doom, I found it incredible easy to then move around the map at up to 22” and just pick off units of 1 wound models, essentially scoring 3d3 mortal wounds with Executioner and smite.

For me, the Supreme Command Detachment was all about needing to get enough Psykers into the list. Doom, Executioner and Guide felt like a must for me, so that meant 2 Farseers. Following that up, I wanted Empower, Quicken and Protect at a minimum for the Spears, so that’s another 3 HQ slots. Add in the Autarch and that brings me to 6 HQs, meaning I needed a 3rd detachment to fit everything in. I could easily have dropped the psyker with Conceal though, as I don’t think I cast it once, simply reverting to smite or hiding in the Wave Serpent. I kinda agree with your point about it making the list weaker though. The powers were great to have, and the psykers themselves on the bikes helped score a LOT of points throughout the games, but, they didn’t provide me with any real extra threat. It does make me consider dropping the foot Farseer and not running guide at all.




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 Dynas wrote:
Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids. Also, can someone explain the interrupt strategem for DS units that shoot out of turn, and how to deal with that.

Nids absolutely destroyed most of the Eldar lists, and prob would have done the same to me (the list that won in the end had like 3 units of 19 genestealers, 1 unit of 17, and a unit of 19 purestrain genestealers, along with a few hive tyrants etc).

The biggest bonus you can have vs spears making sure you charge them. In my game vs Necrons, everytime he charged me to try and do something i really struggled to deal the damage back that phase due to being str 3 - however, just be aware that they can be very tough to take out and can leave combat, shoot and then charge with a 2cp stratagem.

As for Reapers, i agree with the post below yours. Flying Tyrants can cause them some real problems if you can get into range. They will also suffer if you do go something like Genestealer spam as they won't be able to clear enough in the 1 or 2 turns before you get everything in combat.

Deep strike stratagem is 2CP, needs a farseer within 6" of the unit, and the Craftworlds unit can then shoot at the unit that just arrived from reserves as long as they have LoS and range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dynas wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Question for nod Eldar player. How to deal with Dark Reapers and Shining spears. I play nids. Also, can someone explain the interrupt strategem for DS units that shoot out of turn, and how to deal with that.

The Forwarned Strategem only works if the Farseer is within 6" (not much you can do) AND the unit shooting (Reapers/Bikes/Vypers most likely) MUST have los. So try to come in from reserves where your unit is on the other side of some los blocking terrain.

Remember they can do this stratagem only once per turn.....so lead with a 'bluff' unit. They must use Forwarned IMMEDIATELY. So either they waste the shots on a unit not so dangerous or you drop it in and wait another turn to bring in your reserves so that they did not get the extra round of shooting.

Yeah he had a Farseet camping with a giant blob of Deathreapers. he burned forwarned and the strategems that rerolls hit or wounds or something. 4 cp in total.

The IMMEDIATELY part....Son of a... so if I DS any other unit first, like say a unit of rippers, and they are within LoS, he has to use it then or not at all? If so, then this guy totally cheated me...

Shining Spears are tough in CC but only when they charge. If they fail to wipe the unit they are less of a threat the next round.
With that in mind do as many heroic interventions that you can. Try to consolidate as many units as you can into them on his turn. Then on your turn they will do marginal damage at STR 3 and you can whittle them down.

Yeah and they are fast, a unit of 9 took out 2 carnifex in one turn.

So, the only stratagem I can think, is that he used Runes of Witnessing, which is 2CP and allows the unit to re-roll wound rolls of 1.

The only way Eldar can re-roll all failed hits and wounds, is with psychic powers – guide and doom. An additional power can provide a +1 to wound, so, at str 8 he’d be generally wounding on 2’s or 3 with the +1, re-rolling 1’s with the 2CP stratagem.

Yeah, Spears can do that, but, they can be a massive glass cannon. My 9 man squad went in and killed a Redemptor, Hellblasters, Scouts and a Tac squad in 1 round of combat, but then got completely destroyed straight after by BobbyG. Always remember, that their Invuln only works vs shooting as well, so, the 2 Wound, 2+/3++ might seem scary at first, but can be worked around.

Good stuff.

I struggle with my DA as well. They just don't seem to do enough but maybe I'm expecting too much for their points.

I also find that I need a lot of HQ (Autarch, 2 Farseers, 2 spirit seers at minimum). With my 2 wave serpents I run that is a ton of Mortal wound output along with the Hemlock.

I'll try out my Guardians as a distraction even if they don't go after the most optimized target (sometimes against certain lists there are no great targets for them ...vehicle heavy, bike heavy - ravenwing with invuln etc).

I also have the skyrunner with Doom Executioner but that's my only one on bike. The spirit seer Smite is why I take them over Warlocks. Also with warlocks I'm scared Perils will kill them and some of my units around them. With Spiritseer at full strength they can't die with one perils.

I run dual battalions lately. One Biel tan (DA, Guardians, Wave serpents, Autarch with guide type warlord trait and wings) and One Alaitoc (rangers, hemock, hawks, reapers)

Good stuff thanks all. I feel better.

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
Good stuff.

I struggle with my DA as well. They just don't seem to do enough but maybe I'm expecting too much for their points.


I run dual battalions lately. One Biel tan (DA, Guardians, Wave serpents, Autarch with guide type warlord trait and wings) and One Alaitoc (rangers, hemock, hawks, reapers)

I use Dire Avengers as screening units. I have one for my Autarch, one each for my Reaper units. No one charges any of those. The avengers bubble wrap good and a nice OverWatch.

If they don't charge those they do well on cleaning up on reserves that come in. I rarely use them for hitting the enemy line but rather a defensive role. The CC units are behind them so I dictate who is in hth on my turn.


Question about the 2 different army traits. Do you find that the Reapers miss the Autarch's reroll?

I always take 2 army traits...but everyone in my gunline is the same as my Autarch and the other army trait are for units that are grabbing objectives/charging the enemy/etc that would not benefit from the Autarch anyway.

How do you do it?

 admironheart wrote:

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
Good stuff.

I struggle with my DA as well. They just don't seem to do enough but maybe I'm expecting too much for their points.


I run dual battalions lately. One Biel tan (DA, Guardians, Wave serpents, Autarch with guide type warlord trait and wings) and One Alaitoc (rangers, hemock, hawks, reapers)

I use Dire Avengers as screening units. I have one for my Autarch, one each for my Reaper units. No one charges any of those. The avengers bubble wrap good and a nice OverWatch.

If they don't charge those they do well on cleaning up on reserves that come in. I rarely use them for hitting the enemy line but rather a defensive role. The CC units are behind them so I dictate who is in hth on my turn.


Question about the 2 different army traits. Do you find that the Reapers miss the Autarch's reroll?

I always take 2 army traits...but everyone in my gunline is the same as my Autarch and the other army trait are for units that are grabbing objectives/charging the enemy/etc that would not benefit from the Autarch anyway.

How do you do it?

Interesting take on the DA! I actually thought of that but with 5 dudes I didn't think they could create much of an impediment to onrushing enemy (outside of deepstrike denial that is)

What I have started doing is using my farseer on foot, giving him guide and fortune and letting him hang back with the Dark Reapers.

Currently I use my winged autarch to give his free "guide" to my Fire Dragons.

For the Dark Reapers I DEFINITELY want a full reroll not just a 1. I only have one unit of 9 (I'm not much of a spammer) so I want to make every shot count!

EDIT: I also keep one of my spirit seers with Conceal back to give more protection for the Reapers.

I know it's technicality, but I just realised how funny it sounds:

This model can transport 12 PHOENIX LORD models

Guess everyone is in, including err Slicing Orbs of Zandros and everything

 Shadenuat wrote:


This model can transport 12 PHOENIX LORD models

Its a Donut run!!!

So i just adquired 3 vault wrath platforms, and I was hoping to field them with a farseer to keep em guided and use forewarned. But now i MUST split them into 3 diferent units every time? does that mean I cant buff em all at the same time?

Pilvento wrote:
So i just adquired 3 vault wrath platforms, and I was hoping to field them with a farseer to keep em guided and use forewarned. But now i MUST split them into 3 diferent units every time? does that mean I cant buff em all at the same time?

You are correct unfortunately.

I had 2 Dcannon platforms I broke out sometimes in previous editions that are now just excellent pieces of art

Pilvento wrote:
So i just adquired 3 vault wrath platforms, and I was hoping to field them with a farseer to keep em guided and use forewarned. But now i MUST split them into 3 diferent units every time? does that mean I cant buff em all at the same time?

Sadly yes Vaul's sufer from being split after deployment so they lose a lot on this edition.

On the other hand they can be surprising when fielding them in pairs (stratagem use gives them rerolls for hit and wounds i think) and it's worth to remember they have both guardian and vehicle keyword so you can take advantage from celestial shield or black guardians (if playing ulthwe).

 Ovechkin8 wrote:

Pilvento wrote:
So i just adquired 3 vault wrath platforms, and I was hoping to field them with a farseer to keep em guided and use forewarned. But now i MUST split them into 3 diferent units every time? does that mean I cant buff em all at the same time?

You are correct unfortunately.

I had 2 Dcannon platforms I broke out sometimes in previous editions that are now just excellent pieces of art

All is not lost. You can either use an Auratch or the stratagem that gives the Farseer re-roll 1s to nearby units. It's not as good as Guide, but it certainly buffs every unit in range, thus can affect all the platforms at once.

No luck on Forewarning though. Better stick with Reapers for that, although hopefully they get Chapter Approved to a max unit size of 5 soon. It would certainly help minimize all the complaining.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Ovechkin8 wrote:

Pilvento wrote:
So i just adquired 3 vault wrath platforms, and I was hoping to field them with a farseer to keep em guided and use forewarned. But now i MUST split them into 3 diferent units every time? does that mean I cant buff em all at the same time?

You are correct unfortunately.

I had 2 Dcannon platforms I broke out sometimes in previous editions that are now just excellent pieces of art

All is not lost. You can either use an Auratch or the stratagem that gives the Farseer re-roll 1s to nearby units. It's not as good as Guide, but it certainly buffs every unit in range, thus can affect all the platforms at once.

No luck on Forewarning though. Better stick with Reapers for that, although hopefully they get Chapter Approved to a max unit size of 5 soon. It would certainly help minimize all the complaining.

-

I'll def be taking them in my friendly apoc game upcoming and see how they work!

But 1cp to reroll 1s to wound and another to reroll 1s to hit feels a bit lackluster competitively at least.

D Cannons are still scary tho just like Demolisher cannons. They can create a nice killing zone in the middle where your opponent will think twice about moving to. I don't know about Vibro cannons and spinners tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A thought that probably has been brought up before on here...

I would think twice about putting my Dark Reapers in the webway!! Counter logic I know! Here is why:

I set them up in a nice big unit on top of a nice piece of terrain with good sight lines and stick my farseer right near them (within 6")

That way you can use Forwarned BEFORE the battle even starts if your opponent has units which act like "rangers" OR if you go second and your opponent deepstrikes you get to knock one unit out at least.

If you do use it BEFORE the battle begins remember you can use the stratagem over and over again (at least to my understanding)

If nothing else it will make your opponent limit the areas where he puts units like "Rangers" or deep strikers.

Obviously this won't always be the case depending on what army you fight. If you fight one with no deep strikers and a bunch of long ranged attacks you wont do it!!

Nice Call about prior to battle reserves. I will have to look that over some more.

I had Death Guard charge my D Cannon. With T5? and 5 wounds.....he underestimated. He thought the unit would just fold. He did zero wounds in hth. Shooting is far easier to take them out.

As for Vibro Cannons they have their use. But you need to keep them 48" away from most targets.
If you have 3 or 4 of them then you get some good attacks.
D3 attacks. The first cannon is standard str 7 -1 2 damage.
The second will get d3 more attacks at str 7 -2 and 2 damage but now wounds on +1 die roll. That means most tanks will be wounded on 3+ and Land Raiders on 4+
The 3 and later Vibro Cannons now get:
d3 attacks , str 7 -3 and 2 wounds but with +2 to the wound roll will now wound most tanks on 2+ and even Land Raiders on 3+.

It is almost like a free Doom-lite for them when targeting the same unit.

Admittedly you will probably only get 8 hits and 5 wounds off on average but that is 10 damage to your opponent's tank.
I think you can probably do more with the points but it will take 20 wounds to eliminate the Vauls and it does seem to be consistent.

That way you can use Forwarned BEFORE the battle even starts

Was discussed in YMDC, in the thread about Rangers. Short answer: it doesn't work that way.

Long answer: You might have to face that crazy Bacon Bug, and be wary, as (s)he is no easy enemy to be faced for a fellow aeldari.

I wish the whole thing was FAQed though, with what is reserves and whatsnot.

Was browsing some tourney lists and I have a list building question.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Richard-Simms-2nd-Overall-Caledonian-Uprising.pdf

So his list is a ynnari with Alaitoc however he specifically states his shining spears are saim Hann.

1) can he do that in a ynnari detachment.

2) does he keep the benefits

3) if not why do it.

I assume he could take them as an auxillary for -1 cp and use the saim hann strategem or am I missing something. Thanks!

Incognito15 wrote:
1) can he do that in a ynnari detachment.

Yes. It's technically not optional, each unit that has the "<CRAFTWORLD>" faction keyword must replace it with a specific craftworld.

2) does he keep the benefits.
3) if not why do it.

Going Ynnari removes battle focus. And since the detachment contains non-craftworld units (Yvraine), none of the craftworlds units in that detachment can get attributes. So no Saim-Hann or Alaitoc attributes for the units in this detachment.
There is however one benefit you get from choosing a craftworld for your Ynnari units, which is related to faction keywords: for instance, the banshees are from Alaitoc, and can therefore embark upon the Alaitoc wave serpents. They don't get the Alaitoc attribute, but they can ride in a transport that does (since the WS are taken in a pure Alaitoc detachment), so it's a decent combo.
Then you have aura abilities, and stratagems. Some stratagems only work on units from a specific craftworld. I think there is a stratagem that can be used on Saim-Hann bikers, and the Ynnari shining spears would be eligible as targets for this stratagem (they have all the right keywords). Of course the stratagem has to be unlocked in the first place (I don't have my codex with me atm, so I can't check if the stratagem is unlocked by any craftworld detachment, or just by Saim-Hann detachments).

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Is an IG style Eldar list viable? Lots of Guardians and Fire Prisms and such. Seems kind of cool in my head

Go for it. As an Admech player, I generally see Eldar play with at least one group of 20 Guardians, some Dire Avengers with the character that buffs their assault guns to -4 on 6's to wound, a bunch of those rocket guys with 3 different shooting profiles that have absurd range and capabilites with psykers, and last but not least, a huge squad of Harlequins that uses deep strike shenanigans and psyker powers to get first turn charges...while armed with melta pistols.

Huge numbers of troops, super fast, and incredibly hard to deal with since you have to focus fire in a specific pattern that is terrible:

Turn 1
Harlequins make themselves huge threat, shoot and get in CC that ties up EVERYTHING.
Guardians Web Way in and shoot what they can.
Dire Avengers move up, maybe in a Wave Serpent, maybe not. Depends on points. Again, with assault, they shoot what they can.

Opposing player has to focus on the closest units to prevent close combat from tying up more units, and prevent you from essentially getting to shoot twice every turn...with fists.

Turn 2
Harlequins continue their rampage, moving out of combat, shooting melta, and charging again with Rising Crescendo.
Guardians and Dire Avengers blast anything without an invul save, even tanks. With concentrated fire, those -3/-4 AP shots can tear through 10 wounds on a Lehman Russ without trying. CC can then be used to tie up units that can't fall back and shoot.
Psykers are close enough to use Smite and other shenanigans.
Rocket guys kill any DS units that come in to support with their auto 3's to hit.

By this point, enemy lines are broken, a couple tanks have been destroyed/rendered useless, and effective return fire keeps being diverted the closest and most 'threatening' units - even if that unit is Guardians. CC really bogs down infantry heavy lists like Guard.

Turn 3
Anything without invuls is dead, and it's basically clean up at this point. Unless you're fighting Ultramarines, dedicated close combat units, or something that can fall back and shoot in the same turn...the game is over. You have tabled the enemy.

But I'm just saying all this as AdMech, so...

3) if not why do it.

Transports
Auras
Stratagems, they are avaible as long as you have at least 1 pure Craftworld detachment in the army

 Shadenuat wrote:

That way you can use Forwarned BEFORE the battle even starts

Was discussed in YMDC, in the thread about Rangers. Short answer: it doesn't work that way.

Long answer: You might have to face that crazy Bacon Bug, and be wary, as (s)he is no easy enemy to be faced for a fellow aeldari.

I wish the whole thing was FAQed though, with what is reserves and whatsnot.

Clearly I didn't see that!

But in that FAQ did they address the matched rule play where 50% of your units have to start on the board? In this case do Rangers using the "webway" count as on the board or as reserves??

If I were to build a small army in matched play that had a Farseer on foot, a unit of swooping hawks in reserve and a unit of rangers would my army be "legal"?

I really don't know. RAW Rangers do not count as "reinforcements". But most people assume that what is not on the board is not deployed and thus 50% else must be.
Your army will be legal - you can just set up Rangers normally anyway.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I really don't know. RAW Rangers do not count as "reinforcements". But most people assume that what is not on the board is not deployed and thus 50% else must be.
Your army will be legal - you can just set up Rangers normally anyway.

That's interesting. In our upcoming tournament we had a big discussion about this very same thing and it was ruled the opposite based on how the wording of the rules went.

The tactical reserves rule states that "when setting up your army during deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up in the BATTLEFIELD, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere"

Rangers say they are set up in the Webway during deployment "instead of placing it on the battlefield"

This will make a big difference as I have 3 units of Rangers in my force that can tilt my army legal or illegal depending on ruling


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovechkin8 wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I really don't know. RAW Rangers do not count as "reinforcements". But most people assume that what is not on the board is not deployed and thus 50% else must be.
Your army will be legal - you can just set up Rangers normally anyway.

That's interesting. In our upcoming tournament we had a big discussion about this very same thing and it was ruled the opposite based on how the wording of the rules went. Obviously I'd prefer to set all my Rangers up in the Webway!!

The tactical reserves rule states that "when setting up your army during deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up in the BATTLEFIELD, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere"

Rangers say they are set up in the Webway during deployment "instead of placing it on the battlefield"

This will make a big difference as I have 3 units of Rangers in my force that can tilt my army legal or illegal depending on ruling

I think you can choose to set up a unit on the board anytime instead of putting it in reserve from a special ability.

Just because I can move 20" with my 3 vypers DOES NOT mean I have to move the extra inches.

Same line of thought goes with any special abilities.

You are NOT forced to roll to save CPs with Path of Command....not sure why you wouldn't...but hey


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ravemastaj wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Is an IG style Eldar list viable? Lots of Guardians and Fire Prisms and such. Seems kind of cool in my head

Go for it. As an Admech player, I generally see Eldar play with at least one group of 20 Guardians, some Dire Avengers with the character that buffs their assault guns to -4 on 6's to wound,

Well I think you are referring to the Warlord Trait ....Ambush of Blades.

The first time I used it, I misread it and thought it applied to shooting...IT DOES NOT. the extra -1 on 6's is only for CC attacks. The most Guardians/Avengers can get is -3 with shuriken fire on a roll of 6+

 admironheart wrote:
I think you can choose to set up a unit on the board anytime instead of putting it in reserve from a special ability.

Just because I can move 20" with my 3 vypers DOES NOT mean I have to move the extra inches.

Same line of thought goes with any special abilities.

You are NOT forced to roll to save CPs with Path of Command....not sure why you wouldn't...but hey


+

True. What I was getting at is (in my example above) would I have a legal army if I had a farseer on the board, swooping hawks in reserve and Rangers in the webway?

IE If Rangers are in the webway then they are not counted on the board. If they are not counted on the board then they are Tactical Reserves. If they are Tactical Reserves then they are vulnerable to stratagems like Forwarned.

If they ARE counted on the board (assuming you want them in the Webway) then you fufill the 50% rule and your army is legal and you are NOT vulnerable to stratagems like Forwarned since you would not be considered Tactical Reserves.

In other words there can be only 2 designations for a unit:

1) Starting on the Battlefield

2) Tactical Reserves

You can't be both and you can't be neither

EDIT: hahahha...Ironically I am just listening to the Perferred Enemies Podcast and someone had these exact same questions!

Rules on sidebars on pages 177 and 178. "Sequencing" and "Reinforcements" covers all the Forwarned and Ranger situations.... DUH! Now I feel stupid

 admironheart wrote:

Well I think you are referring to the Warlord Trait ....Ambush of Blades.

The first time I used it, I misread it and thought it applied to shooting...IT DOES NOT. the extra -1 on 6's is only for CC attacks. The most Guardians/Avengers can get is -3 with shuriken fire on a roll of 6+

Huh. Guess I have to buy a Craftworld Codex just to prepare against cheesiness and see RAW. Still, tanks getting a 6+ save against a handgun is pretty powerful, on a unit that only needs 1CP to become a 4++ invul save. Dark Reapers (the rocket guys) are also extremely good, since they always hit on 3's, and can target whatever unit you need them to with a big enough group.

All I know is when I see Eldar, I see shenanigans. Every unit has an "I ignore this rule" clause somewhere in it's individual rules.

Ravemastaj wrote:

Huh. Guess I have to buy a Craftworld Codex just to prepare against cheesiness and see RAW. Still, tanks getting a 6+ save against a handgun is pretty powerful, on a unit that only needs 1CP to become a 4++ invul save. Dark Reapers (the rocket guys) are also extremely good, since they always hit on 3's, and can target whatever unit you need them to with a big enough group.

All I know is when I see Eldar, I see shenanigans. Every unit has an "I ignore this rule" clause somewhere in it's individual rules.

You may also need to get the codex to see how weak it is then. Because it isn't as good as almost every other codex.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You may also need to get the codex to see how weak it is then. Because it isn't as good as almost every other codex.

Seriously? I have only lost one game since the codex dropped and that was because I played badly and ignored the objectives until too late in the game. Craftworlds are one of the stronger codices IMHO. Possibly not right up with the very strongest but definitely upper tier if not top tier.

Ravemastaj wrote:
Every unit has an "I ignore this rule" clause somewhere in it's individual rules.

This is true of Marines and just about every other unit that exists in 40K.

But in general, Eldar have always been different, that's their schtick.

 Karhedron wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You may also need to get the codex to see how weak it is then. Because it isn't as good as almost every other codex.

Seriously? I have only lost one game since the codex dropped and that was because I played badly and ignored the objectives until too late in the game. Craftworlds are one of the stronger codices IMHO. Possibly not right up with the very strongest but definitely upper tier if not top tier.

Totally agree. Eldar are far from weak. If you take out Reapers, Eldar are about above averages. It's Reapers and adding powers and stratagems to Reapers that make CWE seem OP right now.

-

 Galef wrote:

Ravemastaj wrote:
Every unit has an "I ignore this rule" clause somewhere in it's individual rules.

This is true of Marines and just about every other unit that exists in 40K.

But in general, Eldar have always been different, that's their schtick.

 Karhedron wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You may also need to get the codex to see how weak it is then. Because it isn't as good as almost every other codex.

Seriously? I have only lost one game since the codex dropped and that was because I played badly and ignored the objectives until too late in the game. Craftworlds are one of the stronger codices IMHO. Possibly not right up with the very strongest but definitely upper tier if not top tier.

Totally agree. Eldar are far from weak. If you take out Reapers, Eldar are about above averages. It's Reapers and adding powers and stratagems to Reapers that make CWE seem OP right now.

-

I agree. Craftworlds are definitely up there in terms of power.

They do struggle against some armies though (as it should be for every army) but they have the ability to take on pretty much any competitive list in a close game.

 Karhedron wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
You may also need to get the codex to see how weak it is then. Because it isn't as good as almost every other codex.

Seriously? I have only lost one game since the codex dropped and that was because I played badly and ignored the objectives until too late in the game. Craftworlds are one of the stronger codices IMHO. Possibly not right up with the very strongest but definitely upper tier if not top tier.

Data does not support that. Congratulations on being better than your playgroup.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Data does not support that. Congratulations on being better than your playgroup.

What data are you referring to?

Just watched how Custodes play. The dice were really sick...but a 5 man unit had 2 left after 20 genestealers charged them with catalyst. I think 3 of the stealers were killed by other means and only 6 were left when game ended.

6 vs 2 and the stealers were probably dead. Custodes are tough!

Custodes really feel like mini raid bosses. I'm reconsidering starcannons, especially on WW or guardians

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You may also need to get the codex to see how weak it is then. Because it isn't as good as almost every other codex.

I am going to ignore your opinion, having lost 3 weeks in a row to combined Eldar lists. Admech is currently the weakest codex - having only one strategy (Dakkabots w/Cawl) is very detrimental to...well, having any fun. Rising Crescendo Harlequins + Dark Reapers + Invul Guardians + Dual shooting tanks + Forewarning + Psyker shenannigans (like moving TWICE) + Teleporting Yncarnne...the list goes on. If you can't make a synergistic list with any of that, you are playing Eldar wrong.

Yeah, Eldar are better than Admech. But their internal balance sucks compared to Nids and IG. Reapers and Hemlocks carry the codex, maybe Spears. Nids are the gold standard for internal balance, imo. Units and Hive fleets.

Eldar's internal balance is a bit wonky but this has been true for many editions and is partly due to the fact that the range is so old and big that it has many units in overlapping roles. Fire Dragons vs Wraithguard is a perfect example.

However Eldar do have plenty of strong units and plenty of viable builds. Alaitoc Reapers is common simply because it is an easy power build.

xmbk wrote:
Yeah, Eldar are better than Admech. But their internal balance sucks compared to Nids and IG. Reapers and Hemlocks carry the codex, maybe Spears. Nids are the gold standard for internal balance, imo. Units and Hive fleets.

Reapers and Hemlocks are good yes, but i'd def place Spears as a major carrying unit as well.

But, in addition to that, our psychic abilities is also a massive game changer for us alongside Guardian blobs. They can easily carry games. Wave Serpents are also pretty much an auto include, and a very good one at that. Crimson Hunter Exarchs are also an option, and one of the best units for anti-tank.

Other than that, i agree, the balance in-codex is a bit off. Vypers only worth it in Saim-Hann, Rangers can be hit or miss, but very good. Hawks, i want to be good, but str 3 shooting and combat with t3 and 4+ save makes them melt. Autarch is great on a bike, but is only really taken for the CP re-gain. Rest of the codex doesn't really get much of a look in - because why spend 60-250 points on 5 man unit when you can get more Spears or Reapers.

I love my Wraithguard (in Serpents of course). D-scythes in particular are great for frying stuff. If the enemy tries to charge you, just fry 'em again. If they are still dead just stroll out of combat and fry them a third time thanks to "Implacable". I always bring a couple of squads and they never disappoint.

It's a codex built on the back of three units. That makes it powerful, but in an unhealthy way.

I agree that the psychic phase is ours. Only the Tyranids and probably Chaos can compete. In everygame Ive played since the dex came out only 4 WeirdBoyz offered me a headache but a Nova Lance Skyrunner took them out in 1 round.

I usually get 75% of my DtW rolls with Will of Asuryan or Runes of Witnessing or Seer Council.

I usally get 2/3rds of my spells cast and only abut 1 in 4 are ever denied.

So an average round will get my Eldar 50% of their powers and my opponents get 1 or 2.

So why do WraithGuard get Implacable and the much larger Wraithlords do not???

Why don't the better armed WraithBlades get it too?

There seems no fluffy reason for it and is just tacked on because.

Dreadnoughts and Wraithlords and Carnifexes, etc should all just brush aside man sized foes and ignore them for movment

 admironheart wrote:
So why do WraithGuard get Implacable and the much larger Wraithlords do not???

Why don't the better armed WraithBlades get it too?

Why Wraithblades don't get implacable is easy - the rule wouldn't do anything for them. As for Wraithlords, probably because they're not as focussed only on shooting as the WG.

 Galef wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?

I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.

No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.

-

Not necessarily. In the "Stepping Into a New Edition" FAQ it says:

Q: Can I embark within a transport at any time
other than in the Movement phase, such as following
a consolidate move that takes a unit within 3" of
a transport?
A: No. You may only embark within or disembark a
transport in the Movement phase, unless a rule or ability
explicitly says otherwise.

The Fire and Fade strat says 'move like the movement phase', but is not actually in that phase. At LVO a judge ruled I couldn't embark.

Coldsteel wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?

I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.

No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.

-

Not necessarily. In the "Stepping Into a New Edition" FAQ it says:

Q: Can I embark within a transport at any time
other than in the Movement phase, such as following
a consolidate move that takes a unit within 3" of
a transport?
A: No. You may only embark within or disembark a
transport in the Movement phase, unless a rule or ability
explicitly says otherwise.

The Fire and Fade strat says 'move like the movement phase', but is not actually in that phase. At LVO a judge ruled I couldn't embark.

I'd say that's an odd ruling. The ability specifically says "move like the movement phase". Interesting and good to know.

Coldsteel wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?

I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.

No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.

-

Not necessarily. In the "Stepping Into a New Edition" FAQ it says:

Q: Can I embark within a transport at any time
other than in the Movement phase, such as following
a consolidate move that takes a unit within 3" of
a transport?
A: No. You may only embark within or disembark a
transport in the Movement phase, unless a rule or ability
explicitly says otherwise.

The Fire and Fade strat says 'move like the movement phase', but is not actually in that phase. At LVO a judge ruled I couldn't embark.

The judge got that wrong for sure

 Cream Tea wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
So why do WraithGuard get Implacable and the much larger Wraithlords do not???

Why don't the better armed WraithBlades get it too?

Why Wraithblades don't get implacable is easy - the rule wouldn't do anything for them. As for Wraithlords, probably because they're not as focussed only on shooting as the WG.

The real question is why do Wraithlords still suffer -1 to hit for Heavies? They really should have a rule to ignore that (just like Wks, but without the added ability to charge after falling back)
This small change would really help WLs be a worthwhile choice

-

sadhvikv wrote:

The judge got that wrong for sure

That is why this needs cleaned up in the new FAQ.

Is it even one of the questions submitted?

Apologies for coming in from nowhere with this, but a D-cannon Wraithseer with the Incomparable Hunter warlord trait seems really cool to me. Has anyone tried it out?

Only if you get the first turn and somehow there's a character within 24" without it having to move.

A Wraithseer will be killed on the first turn for certain if he's also your Warlord.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Only if you get the first turn and somehow there's a character within 24" without it having to move.

A Wraithseer will be killed on the first turn for certain if he's also your Warlord.

Well, if the WS is in LOS on the first turn, he deserves to die. D-cannons don't need LOS and a WS/WL is not that big. You should be able to hide him in your deployment, then move it range of something, then Fire & Fade back into LoS blocking terrain.

But I agree, if he is exposed, he dies.

-

One D-Cannon is already pretty negligible at shooting most characters. A moving one is even worse.

with LVO now done there is a lot of chatter to nerf the elder. Yet it was almost all ynarri with only 1 real elder near the top.

I think we have a really good codex even though I hear that others are better. I don't think Tyranids is actually the best like some state.

I think we dominate psychic most matchups which we should.
We do wipe away like paper as is fluffy.

I really don't think we are that hard hitting compared to other units...it is a nice mesh and synergy that makes our lackluster units good.

Imagine if we had no WebWay, Wave Serpents, DOOM or Shurikens. The army would be one of the worst.

I know the crowd clamours over Dark Reapers, but I don't think they are that much of a force multiplier.

Massed Shuriken fire, dropping in hard hitting units from reserves....the toughest transport in the game and the nicest set of synergetic psyche powers are the real game changers that make us good

And really that is what makes us elder. It is a good representation of elder (except that we throw a lot of lives away every battle....which has been ridiculous ever since 3rd)


I say NAY to the crowd that want to make changes.

At most add 3 or 6 points to dark reapers( the latter only if they get EML stats for that as the standard weapon)

EldAr! We are not a faction of old grumpy people!

Two things make Eldar a bit over the top :
- stacking -hit modifier.
- ynnari is extremely efficient in a small reaper & spears detachement.

Rule : - hit can never go over -1

There, no Eldar dominance anymore. But Alatoic is still powerful.

Weidekuh wrote:

- ynnari is extremely efficient in a small reaper & spears detachement.

Please confine Ynnari tactics and conversation to the Ynnari thread.

This is Craftworlds.

Slight disagreement there, Darkness. In general, yes, however it does seem to me that a lot of the “Eldar OP” discussion ultimately involves that Y-word somewhere, so while we draw the distinction, others are not.

Personally, I run pure Craftworld, and if something happens to my toys because of a rule interaction that doesn’t appear in - strictly speaking - their actual Codex, it would feel a bit ‘off’.

So discussion of how to make an Ynnari list work with X Y and Z? You’re right. A discussion on how/why Z could be affected because of that useage? I’d argue for leeway.

 admironheart wrote:
with LVO now done there is a lot of chatter to nerf the elder. Yet it was almost all ynarri with only 1 real elder near the top.

I think that's a bit disingenuous, as all the Ynnari list I've seen near the top were almost pure craftworlds, and all had pure craftworlds detachment. Also, the heavy lifters of these Ynnari lists were usually dark reapers and/or shining spears, supported by stratagems from the craftworlds codex.

And regarding whether or not that discussion is on topic, I agree with Pilum. Ynnari are currently at the top, but completely rely on craftworlds units and stratagems. So when they eventually get nerfed, it will probably be by through a nerf to the craftworlds codex (at this point is seems difficult to further nerf the Ynnari special rule, unless they get a codex that completely change it).

Regarding dark reapers, I think they're way too good. Ignoring all hit penalties is extremely strong, and makes them very reliable. The stratagem to shoot at deep striker, or going Ynnari, can make a unit shoot twice in a turn, which is enough to cripple most armies.
And while they're still 1W T3 guys, they interact very well with Alaitoc: the -1 to hit that disappears at 12" is supposed to grant protection to units that need to be close to work optimally. It's a good trait for units with rapid fire 24" weapons for instance, because they have the choice to trade some protection for more firepower. Dark reapers have insane range, and you can't even deep strike close to them otherwise you get destroyed before you can do anything.

They could do with a rework of their special rule, and a small point bump. Lowering the max unit size would also help with stratagems/psychic buffs/Ynnari that make a good unit way too strong.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:

- ynnari is extremely efficient in a small reaper & spears detachement.

Please confine Ynnari tactics and conversation to the Ynnari thread.

This is Craftworlds.

And this is why my conclusion only adressed the craftworld part.

But see Pilums post as to why I disagree with you on that one. He explained it well.

fresus wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
with LVO now done there is a lot of chatter to nerf the elder. Yet it was almost all ynarri with only 1 real elder near the top.

I think that's a bit disingenuous, as all the Ynnari list I've seen near the top were almost pure craftworlds, and all had pure craftworlds detachment. Also, the heavy lifters of these Ynnari lists were usually dark reapers and/or shining spears, supported by stratagems from the craftworlds codex.

Incorrect. The heavy lifter are Words of the Phoenix Dark Reapers and Soul Bursting Shining Spears. Neither of which exist in Craftworld.

Greetings from a Tyranids player.

Can someone give me some insights on how I deal with a list with 30 dark reapers? One big squad for buffs, and a bunch of little squads with tempest launchers, hiding or in wave serpents.

I don't run Flyrant spam; my list has 2 of them.

Thanks!

 Marmatag wrote:

Can someone give me some insights on how I deal with a list with 30 dark reapers? One big squad for buffs, and a bunch of little squads with tempest launchers, hiding or in wave serpents.

100 Genestealers

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Can someone give me some insights on how I deal with a list with 30 dark reapers? One big squad for buffs, and a bunch of little squads with tempest launchers, hiding or in wave serpents.

100 Genestealers

I should have mentioned i'm looking for take-all-comers solutions, in a tournament landscape.

And, i'm not convinced that would work all that well, unless you've got a ton of LOS blocking terrain.

I haven't found melee to be a viable counter to them, simply because you'll never get there. The second firing profile with 2 shots is really problematic for me, as are the tempest launchers. Couple this with the fact that your big squad can move, shoot, and then for 1 cp, move 7 more inches away, really compounds the problem. Wave serpeants are great at counter charging - i can't fall back and advance, as you don't always kill serpents in melee... and then they'll bail out of combat and reapers light you up.

My current solution has been shooting with indirect fire. 5 hive guards can do 10 shots with 3+, reduced to 4+ from alaitoc, so i am killing ~5 reapers a turn. Not amazing, but also helps soften things for deep strikers, which are my Tyrants.

 Marmatag wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Can someone give me some insights on how I deal with a list with 30 dark reapers? One big squad for buffs, and a bunch of little squads with tempest launchers, hiding or in wave serpents.

100 Genestealers

I should have mentioned i'm looking for take-all-comers solutions, in a tournament landscape.

Prepare for disappointment, then. You're wanting a list custom-made to counter something very strong, yet also wanting a generic list to beat *everything* that's very strong from every faction. Figure out the answer and then you can go win the next set of tournaments.

Yup Biovores and Hive Guard I almost have no counter with my eldar
You put those 2 units in your backfield and screen them. You basically remove 2 MSU Dark Reaper units per round.

I'm guessing after round 2 you probably have over half removed from those 2 units alone.

Indirect fire is perfect for taking down Dark Reapers

...100 Genestealers is probably still the best thing you've got going for you. Kraken, naturally.

Simply put, Reapers are greatly undercosted, and have access to buffs that are far too powerful for their capabilities. The fact that Reaper spam ended carrying Eldar at LVO and other events is not surprising at all.

 admironheart wrote:
Yup Biovores and Hive Guard I almost have no counter with my eldar
You put those 2 units in your backfield and screen them. You basically remove 2 MSU Dark Reaper units per round.

I'm guessing after round 2 you probably have over half removed from those 2 units alone.

Indirect fire is perfect for taking down Dark Reapers

This has been my strategy so far. Although, i have dropped the Biovores. It's just a really brutal list to deal with. I was hoping there was some trick I hadn't thought of. Hive guard are hyper vulnerable because of no invuln and a 4+.

It's also compounded by the fact that things I absolutely must bring to survive - like Venomthropes - are dead points against Reapers.

I have to stay out of LOS as long as possible. The second firing mode is what kills me so badly. Those guys are going to pump out 40-45 shots that just shred T3/T4 models, and laugh at FNP because of multi-damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:
...100 Genestealers is probably still the best thing you've got going for you. Kraken, naturally.

Simply put, Reapers are greatly undercosted, and have access to buffs that are far too powerful for their capabilities. The fact that Reaper spam ended carrying Eldar at LVO and other events is not surprising at all.

Yeah, but i mean every tournament is basically a highlight reel of undercosted models. There's a reason everyone runs reapers, mortar teams + guard chaff, oblits, commanders, etc. Reapers do stand alone though in terms of undercostedness. But i'm not complaining, i'm just here looking for solutions.

 Marmatag wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Can someone give me some insights on how I deal with a list with 30 dark reapers? One big squad for buffs, and a bunch of little squads with tempest launchers, hiding or in wave serpents.

100 Genestealers

I should have mentioned i'm looking for take-all-comers solutions, in a tournament landscape.

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Can someone give me some insights on how I deal with a list with 30 dark reapers? One big squad for buffs, and a bunch of little squads with tempest launchers, hiding or in wave serpents.

100 Genestealers

I should have mentioned i'm looking for take-all-comers solutions, in a tournament landscape.

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

It really doesn't, though... but thanks for your help. I think I got what i needed from this thread.

 Marmatag wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Yup Biovores and Hive Guard I almost have no counter with my eldar
You put those 2 units in your backfield and screen them. You basically remove 2 MSU Dark Reaper units per round.

I'm guessing after round 2 you probably have over half removed from those 2 units alone.

Indirect fire is perfect for taking down Dark Reapers

This has been my strategy so far. Although, i have dropped the Biovores. It's just a really brutal list to deal with. I was hoping there was some trick I hadn't thought of. Hive guard are hyper vulnerable because of no invuln and a 4+.

It's also compounded by the fact that things I absolutely must bring to survive - like Venomthropes - are dead points against Reapers.

I have to stay out of LOS as long as possible. The second firing mode is what kills me so badly. Those guys are going to pump out 40-45 shots that just shred T3/T4 models, and laugh at FNP because of multi-damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fafnir wrote:
...100 Genestealers is probably still the best thing you've got going for you. Kraken, naturally.

Simply put, Reapers are greatly undercosted, and have access to buffs that are far too powerful for their capabilities. The fact that Reaper spam ended carrying Eldar at LVO and other events is not surprising at all.

Yeah, but i mean every tournament is basically a highlight reel of undercosted models. There's a reason everyone runs reapers, mortar teams + guard chaff, oblits, commanders, etc. Reapers do stand alone though in terms of undercostedness. But i'm not complaining, i'm just here looking for solutions.

Might seem strange, but what about a 2 6 man hive guard squads in 2 tyrannocytes? Bit of a points sink, but provides the first turn protection/protection until the Reapers get out the Wave Serpents, and then allows you to drop down (i believe RAW currently, Reapers would have to target the Tyrannocyte with Forwarned rather than the Hive Guard - drop pod faq i think?) either in LoS or outside of it, or in cover. You can then nuke the big squad, and maybe split fire with the 2nd group to finish off the big squad/target a couple of the min squads.

Things like Genestealers will 100% ensure you have the space to deep strike the pods as well as clearing away any Ranger screens they may put up.

I'd also make sure the Hive Tyrants are Kronos to really put the pressure on the Eldar psykers.

Will turn into a bit of a "soup" hive fleet list, but would probably do well in most situations.

At LVO it did not seem the Guard did well. I think that is more due to the ITC secondary and such point system.

I would like to see how many of the top 8 had to fight Guard lists. Sometimes players get a lucky break and squeak by lists that are difficult for them.

What about the Trygon....if another unit jumps out....is that the same as a drop pod or not for targeting with forwarned as per the FAQ?

30 Reapers - meet 10 Banshees.

No overwatch, no cover, no save. Is this too simple?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
30 Reapers - meet 10 Banshees.

No overwatch, no cover, no save. Is this too simple?

You want to counter reapers with banshees?
The problem is to deliver them. Deep striking is difficult as you need to be out of LoS, and get quicken to charge on the turn you arrive. Wave serpents are great, but can't survive heavy dark reaper shooting.

Banshees with quicken could get in turn 1 on foot if deployed after the big reaper unit. More likely they will get shot to bits before they do jack though.

Why can't Wave Serpents survive Dark Reaper shooting? With Serpent shield and Spirit Stones they would be in with a good chance of doing so.

If you had multiple advancing Wave Serpents with Vectored Engines for protection against non Dark Reaper shooting you could easily get there.

Wave Serpents I guess counter Dark Reapers in a way because they reduce damage making them far less effective.

You have turn 1 and he has reapers in serpents or reserve. :(
You have turn 2 and hide your banshees behind terrain. Tempest launcher. :(
You manage to position banshees in serpent closer than 30'' and get quicken off. You may have a chance.

The potential danger may lead to errors in play of the reaper player or it may take someone by surprise. I think it' s a decent option but probably not at top tournament tables.

I mean... if it's that important to kill one Reaper squad with Banshees....

It takes nearly 30 Reaper shots to down a Serpent with Stones, it has pretty good odds of survival. Besides, odds are you have something more generally scary for them to shoot at.

Banshees hop out 3", move+advance 14", Quicken for another 14", average 10" charge should get you locked into anything.

even without quicken you get an average 27 inches with the 6" stratagem. Plus 12" deployment....that equals 39" of the 48" board with no quicken. You should be in the enemy lines easy at that point.

so he has screeners. shoot those with your other units and mortal wounds from psykers. clear a path for Assaults.

It's a fun counter but one that can be difficult to pull off correctly, though thankfully Banshees and a Serpent with Stones don't eat up so many points that they would ruin a list.

 admironheart wrote:
so he has screeners. shoot those with your other units and mortal wounds from psykers. clear a path for Assaults.

The problem with this tactic is that movement (and psychic phase) happens BEFORE shooting. So if you are relying on clearing the screeners, it will be after they've done their job already.
For Example:
Let's say the Reapers are deployed about 2" from their board edge. They've also deployed a unit of Rangers around 12" in front of the Reapers, let's assume enough to prevent "going around". That means the closest your Banshees can get to the Reapers in the movement phase is 14" (because the width of the Ranger's base +1" to stay away from enemy models)
The only way to "clear the screeners" at this point is to waste Psychic powers on them so that you can effectively use Quicken to move the Banshees through the hole you hopefully created, but you will still likely have to go around some survivors because only a stupid player would make it that easy for you.

It's hardly a reliable tactic. What would be better is to A) hope for first turn and B) move the Serpent forward to assault the screening unit.
This would not only get the Serpent closer than it could by Advancing (2D6 roll instead of 1D6) but it forces the screen to clump up a bit, thereby reducing their effectiveness next turn.
But the downside is, the Reapers will still get at least 1 turn to shoot.

Don't get me wrong, Banshees could work really well against Reapers, but there is clearly a lot that has to go in their favor, and most of that is going to be the opponent making a mistake (i.e. not having screeners guarantee their safety from assault on turn 1)

-

Hello all

I've heard that Autarch Skyrunner/ banshee mask + 9 Shining Spears are a powerful combo

Can someone explain to me how to properly use this combo to maximize its potential?

Thank you

I have quite a lot of Eldar but since I don't play Alaitoc or have a single Dark Reaper or Shining Spear, I look forward to seeing the epic nerf those models will receive! It won't affect me at all. However, with recent tournament results I'm sure I'm going to get the eye roll about my army because everyone loves to hate on Eldar.

up

FarseerReborn wrote:
Hello all

I've heard that Autarch Skyrunner/ banshee mask + 9 Shining Spears are a powerful combo

Can someone explain to me how to properly use this combo to maximize its potential?

Thank you

...Fly them into something and kill it? There's not a whole lot to explain here, Shining Spears are pretty straightforward. Just stick them with the pointy end.

 Fafnir wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
Hello all

I've heard that Autarch Skyrunner/ banshee mask + 9 Shining Spears are a powerful combo

Can someone explain to me how to properly use this combo to maximize its potential?

Thank you

...Fly them into something and kill it? There's not a whole lot to explain here, Shining Spears are pretty straightforward. Just stick them with the pointy end.

One layer you can add to this is to charge with the Autarch first, as they cannot overwatch on him. Get him "stuck in" and then charge with the Spears.

Also, with such a large unit, you can charge just 1 unit, then pile into multiple other units, again negating overwatch.

-

 bullyboy wrote:
I have quite a lot of Eldar but since I don't play Alaitoc or have a single Dark Reaper or Shining Spear, I look forward to seeing the epic nerf those models will receive! It won't affect me at all. However, with recent tournament results I'm sure I'm going to get the eye roll about my army because everyone loves to hate on Eldar.

Wonderful anecdote that really drives the tactical discussion. I greatly appreciate your input

Heroic intervention with my SM Captain.

Many, many dead Spears. Or even just a countercharge next turn.

9 is overkill. 4 is fine.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Heroic intervention with my SM Captain.

Many, many dead Spears. Or even just a countercharge next turn.

9 is overkill. 4 is fine.

Agreed, if your goal is to KILL with the Spears. One of the things that makes Spears so good is that while they certainly kill stuff, another strength they have is being able to quickly engage multiple targets.

4-5 Spears is fine for killin', but 9 Spears is what you need to shut down half the armies shooting.
Move them forward, split their shooting to kill/weaken several targets, then charge units with good shooting, pile into others. At that point it doesn't matter if they kill all their targets, so long as their targets can no longer shoot/charge as they'll have to fall back

-

Edit, forgot the waveserpent.

mokoshkana wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I have quite a lot of Eldar but since I don't play Alaitoc or have a single Dark Reaper or Shining Spear, I look forward to seeing the epic nerf those models will receive! It won't affect me at all. However, with recent tournament results I'm sure I'm going to get the eye roll about my army because everyone loves to hate on Eldar.

Wonderful anecdote that really drives the tactical discussion. I greatly appreciate your input

I actually thought the same thing after I wrote this. Was planning for more but had to rush out to work. Probably should have pressed delete rather than submit

Got a question:

Can Ynnary units use Codex:Craftworlds stratagems?

And can Ynnary(alaitoc) use Seim-han stratagems?

 Algelion wrote:
Got a question:

Can Ynnary units use Codex:Craftworlds stratagems?

And can Ynnary(alaitoc) use Seim-han stratagems?

A Ynnari detachment does not unlock Craftworld Stratagems (because you have models that are not Asuryani)
If you have a 2nd detachment that is pure Craftworld then that would unlock use of the Craftworld Stratagems. (all of them, not just a specific craftworld's)

The stratagems list what their legal target is (mostly Asuryani, <Craftworld> or specific units). So long as you meet these requirements you can use craftworld statagems on Ynnari units.

So you can use 'Lightning fast reactions' on a Ynnari Dark Reaper unit to give the enemy -1 to hit (because they are also still Asuryani)
What you can never do is use a Saim-han stratagem on a unit that does not have <Saim-han> as per the statagem rules.

This is why the common tournament list has an Alaitoc detachment (to unlock stratagems and gain the alaitoc -1 trait) and a Ynnari detachment that has a mix of different <Craftworld> units. Like a Saim-Han Shining Spear unit so they can benefit from the stratagem to charge after advancing.

Ordana wrote:

 Algelion wrote:
Got a question:

Can Ynnary units use Codex:Craftworlds stratagems?

And can Ynnary(alaitoc) use Seim-han stratagems?

A Ynnari detachment does not unlock Craftworld Stratagems (because you have models that are not Asuryani)
If you have a 2nd detachment that is pure Craftworld then that would unlock use of the Craftworld Stratagems. (all of them, not just a specific craftworld's)

The stratagems list what their legal target is (mostly Asuryani, <Craftworld> or specific units). So long as you meet these requirements you can use craftworld statagems on Ynnari units.

So you can use 'Lightning fast reactions' on a Ynnari Dark Reaper unit to give the enemy -1 to hit (because they are also still Asuryani)
What you can never do is use a Saim-han stratagem on a unit that does not have <Saim-han> as per the statagem rules.

This is why the common tournament list has an Alaitoc detachment (to unlock stratagems and gain the alaitoc -1 trait) and a Ynnari detachment that has a mix of different <Craftworld> units. Like a Saim-Han Shining Spear unit so they can benefit from the stratagem to charge after advancing.

Thank you, i think Ynnari still need a nerf.

This whole cross-sub-faction stuff is pretty daft, maybe we will see a restriction (which would tone down the whole 'soup' nonsense).

The reason it's that way is because Ynnari do not have their own codex, no stratagems, wargear or anything of that of their own. They are a cross-soup by design, they don't have their own army. They are supposed to be that stuff you slap on other elfs and play them in new interesting ways. Balance issues notwithstanding.

When (if) they get their own set of stratagems, GW would FAQ out using Craftworld ones probably.

The problem is the way the rules are written. Being Ynnari actually doesn't change the Faction of CWE units. They are still <Alaitoc> <Saim-Hann> or whatever.
The fact that you need a non-Ynnari CWE detachment to unlock the stratagems is a decent start though.

The real issue is when you get to layer stratagems and other powers on large single units. This is the main reason I think Reapers NEED to have a max unit size of only 5, not 10.
This would half the effectiveness of being Ynnari.
Especially since Ynnari already got nerfed into the ground by only allowing any type of Soulburst once per turn.

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.

-

 Galef wrote:
The problem is the way the rules are written. Being Ynnari actually doesn't change the Faction of CWE units. They are still <Alaitoc> <Saim-Hann> or whatever.
The fact that you need a non-Ynnari CWE detachment to unlock the stratagems is a decent start though.

The real issue is when you get to layer stratagems and other powers on large single units. This is the main reason I think Reapers NEED to have a max unit size of only 5, not 10.
This would half the effectiveness of being Ynnari.
Especially since Ynnari already got nerfed into the ground by only allowing any type of Soulburst once per turn.

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.

-

We play tournament before the Ynnari nerf here in Ukraine and we got top 3 Ynkarne Ynnari list, this awatar of Innead raped everyone.

 Galef wrote:

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.
-

More likely, they just raise the price on each of them by 15-20.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.
-

More likely, they just raise the price on each of them by 15-20.

Which would suck and would be the lazy answer. Lower that max unit size of Reapers to 5 and the damage of each weapon mode by -1 (S8 is Damage 2 or D3, S5 is damage 1 per shot)

No price increase needed, problems fixed.
Simply raising the cost means less models on the table, which is bad for GW. Hopefully they realize this

-

I still think Ynnari should be an all or nothing thing. If one of your detachment is Ynnari, then all of them must be.
It would stop cross faction stratagems without having to change anything (although it would be fairly easy to say the craftworld strats can't be used on a unit with the Ynnari keyword).
It would kill the faction given how weak SftD is, but it would make balancing Ynnari easier in the future, as a buff of their rules wouldn't affect CWE directly.

 admironheart wrote:
with LVO now done there is a lot of chatter to nerf the elder. Yet it was almost all ynarri with only 1 real elder near the top.

I think we have a really good codex even though I hear that others are better. I don't think Tyranids is actually the best like some state.

I think we dominate psychic most matchups which we should.
We do wipe away like paper as is fluffy.

I really don't think we are that hard hitting compared to other units...it is a nice mesh and synergy that makes our lackluster units good.

Imagine if we had no WebWay, Wave Serpents, DOOM or Shurikens. The army would be one of the worst.

I know the crowd clamours over Dark Reapers, but I don't think they are that much of a force multiplier.

Massed Shuriken fire, dropping in hard hitting units from reserves....the toughest transport in the game and the nicest set of synergetic psyche powers are the real game changers that make us good

And really that is what makes us elder. It is a good representation of elder (except that we throw a lot of lives away every battle....which has been ridiculous ever since 3rd)


I say NAY to the crowd that want to make changes.

At most add 3 or 6 points to dark reapers( the latter only if they get EML stats for that as the standard weapon)

Dark reapers are too good for their points. They're drastically too good for their points with word of the phoenix cast on them. Which creates a balance problem of its own. The points dark reapers should be at when they aren't allowed a trivial way to double shoot in a turn is, of course, going to be way way lower than the points they are going to be at when you can take a squad of 9 and shoot them twice in a turn.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:

- ynnari is extremely efficient in a small reaper & spears detachement.

Please confine Ynnari tactics and conversation to the Ynnari thread.

This is Craftworlds.

This is nonsense. Ynnari is literally 3 units, 3 psychic powers, and a special rule. When the only ynnari part of an army is 9 dark reapers supported by psychic powers, which a handful of supplements to fill out a detachment, you have to stop and think a moment about "You're not allowed to talk about ynnari". Which sounds more like "Please don't focus on our OP stuff and maybe it won't get nerfed"

 Galef wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

As soon as that change was made it stopped all Ynnari lists EXCEPT those with large Reaper and Spear units. If you lower the max unit size of both of those units to 5, you instantly "balance" Ynnari.
And by balance, I mean snuff out.
-

More likely, they just raise the price on each of them by 15-20.

Which would suck and would be the lazy answer. Lower that max unit size of Reapers to 5 and the damage of each weapon mode by -1 (S8 is Damage 2 or D3, S5 is damage 1 per shot)

No price increase needed, problems fixed.
Simply raising the cost means less models on the table, which is bad for GW. Hopefully they realize this

-

raising point costs is the easiest solution and, well, people have already bought all those dark reapers since they saw what they could do. Time to nerf and make you think about buying something else

stratigo wrote:

raising point costs is the easiest solution and, well, people have already bought all those dark reapers since they saw what they could do. Time to nerf and make you think about buying something else

Dark Reapers haven't been for sale in the US by GW since before 8th edition, so not really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:

This is nonsense. Ynnari is literally 3 units, 3 psychic powers, and a special rule. When the only ynnari part of an army is 9 dark reapers supported by psychic powers, which a handful of supplements to fill out a detachment, you have to stop and think a moment about "You're not allowed to talk about ynnari". Which sounds more like "Please don't focus on our OP stuff and maybe it won't get nerfed"
-

No, it means, there's an Ynnari thread for talking about Ynnari tactics on this forum.

This is the Craftworlds one.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

Please refer to the Genestealers thread for Genestealers tactics. Did I learn that right?


Limiting Dark Reapers to 5 models might help to nerf Ynnari and Craftworld intercept strategem. But in an Alatoic detachement small 3 model units to spam the tempest launcher is still extremely strong in an infantry screen meta. So it won't really do much. GW will change reapers and probably shining spears, both for a good reason. We have to hope they will get the balance just right.

Weidekuh wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

Please refer to the Genestealers thread for Genestealers tactics. Did I learn that right?

No, that's actually a violation of the rules of this forum since it's an ad hominem attack and also deliberately misconstruing an out of context quote of how to beat Craftworlds with Tyranids.

Welcome to ignore, and reported.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

What isn't TAC about 100 Genestealers? It beats everything.

Please refer to the Genestealers thread for Genestealers tactics. Did I learn that right?

No, that's actually a violation of the rules of this forum since it's an ad hominem attack and also deliberately misconstruing an out of context quote of how to beat Craftworlds with Tyranids.

Welcome to ignore, and reported.

I’m not sure you understand what an ad hominem is

Eldar Craftworlds Tactics thread: the only place where players discuss about the best possible way to NERF their own codex

Because some people don't like it when their toys are overpowered, but also fear they are going to get nerfed too much.

Weidekuh wrote:
nerfed too much.

Shadow Spectres being a good exmaple. Le sigh.

FarseerReborn wrote:
Eldar Craftworlds Tactics thread: the only place where players discuss about the best possible way to NERF their own codex

Yeah because we don't want another Shadow Spectres situation where models that we've invested in are rendered useless.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
Eldar Craftworlds Tactics thread: the only place where players discuss about the best possible way to NERF their own codex

Yeah because we don't want another Shadow Spectres situation where models that we've invested in are rendered useless.

Our our cousins Razorwing Flocks....

Interestingly, spectres become more effective in the competitive environment as reapers get worse (which are a hard counter to spectres) - let's see if spears escape a nerf or not (imo they are better than reapers/game winners in a good players hands, you can't really make many mistakes playing reapers, but there's a lot of skill involved in good spear play)

Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

 Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

Spears would need more than a small nerf. They were already better than Spectres before their point increase (outside of Ynnari armies at the time, which were broken).

sadhvikv wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

I find this interesting. Say gw nerfs (or even conscript-nerfs) both reapers and spears, what would be the popular units then?

shortymcnostrill wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

I find this interesting. Say gw nerfs (or even conscript-nerfs) both reapers and spears, what would be the popular units then?

If reapers and spears are nerfed out of existence, I'm not sure there is a top table competitive build possible - potentially 5x Hemlocks + 6 spiritseers if the smite beta rules don't get confirmed. The TAC list would probably need wave serpents, fire dragons, swooping hawks, spectres and flyers - but it'd be tough. Let's hope they get the balance right without nuking spears + reapers.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Spectres only become more competitive in direct comparison fighting against Reapers. Reapers getting nerfed still won't see Spectres become a viable option, as they're just far too ludicrously expensive to work. People don't skip on Spectres because they're scared of Reapers. They skip on them because they're just not worth taking at all.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The reason I don't take them is:

1) Spears - spectres are outright worse for the points
2) Reapers - the eldar matchup is tough and 1st turn is powerful, reapers drop spectres painfully fast with the tempest launcher, which is also a more cost effective way of providing anti-horde

If there's a significant reaper nerf and a small spear nerf I think we'll start seeing spectres again (in a similar role to spears currently, Ynaari, quicken, protect, fortune, wotp), they're at the right point level, it's just spears and reapers are a bit overtuned.

Competitively, flyrants spam is a good counter to eldar, and the eldar mirror match is tough because first turn skews the game to one side a lot. Every other army struggles against good eldar play at the moment. That's why reapers are related to the viability of spectres.

I'm only talking competitively because that's all I really play nowadays - bit on edge about how this March FAQ goes!

I find this interesting. Say gw nerfs (or even conscript-nerfs) both reapers and spears, what would be the popular units then?

There wouldn't be any. The Eldar book is built on the backs of three good units and psyker support. Kill off two of them, and it no longer functions with any competitive viability. Don't be fooled by current tournament results, the Eldar codex is in a very unhealthy place right now, and needs some serious work across the entire army.

Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

It's dark reapers. Ynnari uses them best, but if ynnari poofed tomorrow, then you'd still see all the dark reapers.

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

Um... b.c they are. i love the models and have 10 my self and dont play them. If a SM had a 5pt guy with a 22pt ML that awlays hit on 3+ even if move/against airborne, EVERY freaking SM player would have 30 of them.

The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts (It doesnt freaking matter if he HAS to take a Reaper Launcher) he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts.

Ynnari doesnt make them great, it makes a great unit better. If there was no Ynnari you would still see large amounts of them on the table.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

Um... b.c they are. i love the models and have 10 my self and dont play them. If a SM had a 5pt guy with a 22pt ML that awlays hit on 3+ even if move/against airborne, EVERY freaking SM player would have 30 of them.

The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts (It doesnt freaking matter if he HAS to take a Reaper Launcher) he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts.

Ynnari doesnt make them great, it makes a great unit better. If there was no Ynnari you would still see large amounts of them on the table.

Why do I keep reading this argument that the dark reaper body is underpriced at 5pts. Of course it matter that he has to take the gun. Each dark reaper is 27pts, there's no other way to look at it. The gun is priced seperately like that because the autarch can take a reaper launcher. That argument stands if you can take reapers without the gun, in which case eldar dark reaper body only screens would be on the table.

Spears and reapers are great, but it's Ynaari that's making them both into one of the most competitive builds. Mainly spears tbh, reapers manage fine without Ynaari, but it's the Ynaari spears that win games single-handedly.

sadhvikv wrote:

If reapers and spears are nerfed out of existence, I'm not sure there is a top table competitive build possible

This is correct. Craftworlds requires many other units to be buffed if Reapers and Spears are going to be removed.

sadhvikv wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

Um... b.c they are. i love the models and have 10 my self and dont play them. If a SM had a 5pt guy with a 22pt ML that awlays hit on 3+ even if move/against airborne, EVERY freaking SM player would have 30 of them.

The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts (It doesnt freaking matter if he HAS to take a Reaper Launcher) he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts.

Ynnari doesnt make them great, it makes a great unit better. If there was no Ynnari you would still see large amounts of them on the table.

Why do I keep reading this argument that the dark reaper body is underpriced at 5pts. Of course it matter that he has to take the gun. Each dark reaper is 27pts, there's no other way to look at it. The gun is priced seperately like that because the autarch can take a reaper launcher. That argument stands if you can take reapers without the gun, in which case eldar dark reaper body only screens would be on the table.

Spears and reapers are great, but it's Ynaari that's making them both into one of the most competitive builds. Mainly spears tbh, reapers manage fine without Ynaari, but it's the Ynaari spears that win games single-handedly.

It doesnt matter b.c thats not how it works. Here is an Example, a Tnuderfire Cannon MUST take a Tech Marine.. does that mean he should cost 1/2 the points? NO.. b.c you still pay for his abilities and stats, just b.c you are taxed with it doesnt mean you get it at a discount.

Reapers must take the weapon that YOU WANT so there is literally NO TAX, why should a reaper be 1/2 cost for its abilities and stats?


No one here is saying nerf them to be unplayable, just give them a small price increase, Reapers should be 4-5pts more, Shiny Spears 4-5pts more also, and dont let them use stratagems from CWE Traits. Still completely viable, strong, and more balanced.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


No one here is saying nerf them to be unplayable, just give them a small price increase, Reapers should be 4-5pts more, Shiny Spears 4-5pts more .

That's not going to happen though. Reapers will be 40. Spears will be 55.

And honestly, Reapers are still stupid OP even without Ynnari.

sadhvikv wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

Um... b.c they are. i love the models and have 10 my self and dont play them. If a SM had a 5pt guy with a 22pt ML that awlays hit on 3+ even if move/against airborne, EVERY freaking SM player would have 30 of them.

The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts (It doesnt freaking matter if he HAS to take a Reaper Launcher) he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts.

Ynnari doesnt make them great, it makes a great unit better. If there was no Ynnari you would still see large amounts of them on the table.

Why do I keep reading this argument that the dark reaper body is underpriced at 5pts. Of course it matter that he has to take the gun. Each dark reaper is 27pts, there's no other way to look at it. The gun is priced seperately like that because the autarch can take a reaper launcher. That argument stands if you can take reapers without the gun, in which case eldar dark reaper body only screens would be on the table.

Spears and reapers are great, but it's Ynaari that's making them both into one of the most competitive builds. Mainly spears tbh, reapers manage fine without Ynaari, but it's the Ynaari spears that win games single-handedly.

space marines pay 25 points for a worse missile launcher on a worse body. The only thing a devastator has going for him is toughness 4. Dark reapers are a better platform with a better weapon for cheaper, and the internal balance does not justify making reapers that much better than other army's heavy weapon infantry.

stratigo wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

Um... b.c they are. i love the models and have 10 my self and dont play them. If a SM had a 5pt guy with a 22pt ML that awlays hit on 3+ even if move/against airborne, EVERY freaking SM player would have 30 of them.

The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts (It doesnt freaking matter if he HAS to take a Reaper Launcher) he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts.

Ynnari doesnt make them great, it makes a great unit better. If there was no Ynnari you would still see large amounts of them on the table.

Why do I keep reading this argument that the dark reaper body is underpriced at 5pts. Of course it matter that he has to take the gun. Each dark reaper is 27pts, there's no other way to look at it. The gun is priced seperately like that because the autarch can take a reaper launcher. That argument stands if you can take reapers without the gun, in which case eldar dark reaper body only screens would be on the table.

Spears and reapers are great, but it's Ynaari that's making them both into one of the most competitive builds. Mainly spears tbh, reapers manage fine without Ynaari, but it's the Ynaari spears that win games single-handedly.

space marines pay 25 points for a worse missile launcher on a worse body. The only thing a devastator has going for him is toughness 4. Dark reapers are a better platform with a better weapon for cheaper, and the internal balance does not justify making reapers that much better than other army's heavy weapon infantry.

This is also a bad argument, comparing the best unit in a codex to a definite do not take competitively in another codex.

Why are striking scorpions and howling banshees so much worse than Khorne berserkers?
Guardsmen compared to guardians?

Don't get me wrong, reapers need a points/rules correction, but they shouldn't be balanced to devastators with missile launchers. Internal balance is important.

Would these two changes fix the Dark Reaper problem?

1. Dark Reaper units are 3-5 models.

2. Ynnari units replace the <CRAFTWORLD>, <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> and <MASQUE> Keywords with Ynnari.

 Happyjew wrote:
Would these two changes fix the Dark Reaper problem?

1. Dark Reaper units are 3-5 models.

2. Ynnari units replace the <CRAFTWORLD>, <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> and <MASQUE> Keywords with Ynnari.

Point 2, would help balance Ynaari spears rather than reapers, but I'd agree with point 1. Make both spears and reapers 3-5 and it removes Ynaari from the meta, exarch spamming with small squads is fine compared to the big reaper + spear Ynaari unit.

Another fix is to remove their 3+ to hit always unless they stay still, which means it's much harder to protect them with serpents or deep strike unless you're willing to take the negatives.

Another is to up the points, +7pts would be interesting

sadhvikv wrote:

stratigo wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Yes I'm getting tired of conversation after conversation about how 'overpowered' Reapers are at the game tables....and the next sentence out of every mouth......every mouth every time is that Yannari this and Yannari that.....

AAAAAAAAnnnnnndd tI tell them well that IS NOT craftworld.....that is Ynarri.....so don't complain about Craftworld Eldar....complain about Ynarri....

Sheeesh

Um... b.c they are. i love the models and have 10 my self and dont play them. If a SM had a 5pt guy with a 22pt ML that awlays hit on 3+ even if move/against airborne, EVERY freaking SM player would have 30 of them.

The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts (It doesnt freaking matter if he HAS to take a Reaper Launcher) he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts.

Ynnari doesnt make them great, it makes a great unit better. If there was no Ynnari you would still see large amounts of them on the table.

Why do I keep reading this argument that the dark reaper body is underpriced at 5pts. Of course it matter that he has to take the gun. Each dark reaper is 27pts, there's no other way to look at it. The gun is priced seperately like that because the autarch can take a reaper launcher. That argument stands if you can take reapers without the gun, in which case eldar dark reaper body only screens would be on the table.

Spears and reapers are great, but it's Ynaari that's making them both into one of the most competitive builds. Mainly spears tbh, reapers manage fine without Ynaari, but it's the Ynaari spears that win games single-handedly.

space marines pay 25 points for a worse missile launcher on a worse body. The only thing a devastator has going for him is toughness 4. Dark reapers are a better platform with a better weapon for cheaper, and the internal balance does not justify making reapers that much better than other army's heavy weapon infantry.

This is also a bad argument, comparing the best unit in a codex to a definite do not take competitively in another codex.

Why are striking scorpions and howling banshees so much worse than Khorne berserkers?
Guardsmen compared to guardians?

Don't get me wrong, reapers need a points/rules correction, but they shouldn't be balanced to devastators with missile launchers. Internal balance is important.

They’re better than Lascannons too. Dark reapers are arguably the best unit in the game even if you discount ynnari. With ynnari, they are, no question the best unit in the game

sadhvikv wrote:

space marines pay 25 points for a worse missile launcher on a worse body. The only thing a devastator has going for him is toughness 4. Dark reapers are a better platform with a better weapon for cheaper, and the internal balance does not justify making reapers that much better than other army's heavy weapon infantry.

A worse missile launcher? The Marine launcher has a better average damage on the single shot. The 2nd mode is a wash in utility. Reapers kill elites better, Marines kill most horde/screens better.

I won't defend the costs of the body/rules though. That is much more subjective and a slight adjustment is of some sort would probably do well.

Im holding off until March to buy anymore eldar to due to faq. Obviously reapers and shining spears will get nerfed, probably a bit too much like malific lords did but what other units are people anticipating becoming good? Fire Prisms, lots of flyers, maybe fire dragons? Any thoughts?

Craftworlds units in a Ynnari detachment can choose from craftworlds traits?
E.g. Ynnari Shining Spears with saimm Hann trait (reroll charges)

FarseerReborn wrote:
Craftworlds units in a Ynnari detachment can choose from craftworlds traits?
E.g. Ynnari Shining Spears with saimm Hann trait (reroll charges)

No Ynaari units lose craft world traits (e.g. Alaitoc -1 to hit or saim hann reroll charges) and they lose battle focus.

They do still have to pick a craft world, which impacts in a few ways for example:

1) they can use craft world specific strategems, e.g. Saim hann strategem to advance and charge. This is the only real positive strategem that is of significance.

2) they can only embark on wave serpents from the same craft world

3) they can only benefit from the autarch reroll aura if they are from the same craft world


I think a lot of people are thinking they still get craft world traits, and blowing this out of proportion, when the only real benefit of having to pick a craft world is using the saim hann strategem on shining spears or the other one is to use the strategem to take the biel tann relic on a biel-tan Ynaari psyker to improve the chance of getting quicken off.

FarseerReborn wrote:
Craftworlds units in a Ynnari detachment can choose from craftworlds traits?
E.g. Ynnari Shining Spears with saimm Hann trait (reroll charges)

A Ynnari detachment does not unlock Craftworld Stratagems (because you have models that are not Asuryani)
If you have a 2nd detachment that is pure Craftworld then that would unlock use of the Craftworld Stratagems. (all of them, not just a specific craftworld's)

The stratagems list what their legal target is (mostly Asuryani, <Craftworld> or specific units). So long as you meet these requirements you can use craftworld statagems on Ynnari units.

So you can use 'Lightning fast reactions' on a Ynnari Dark Reaper unit to give the enemy -1 to hit (because they are also still Asuryani)
What you can never do is use a Saim-han stratagem on a unit that does not have <Saim-han> as per the statagem rules.

This is why the common tournament list has an Alaitoc detachment (to unlock stratagems and gain the alaitoc -1 trait) and a Ynnari detachment that has a mix of different <Craftworld> units. Like a Saim-Han Shining Spear unit so they can benefit from the stratagem to charge after advancing.

Why are striking scorpions and howling banshees so much worse than Khorne berserkers?

How are Banshees worse than Berserkers? They are a great unit in their own right.
Guardians also have very solid firepower.

Im holding off until March to buy anymore eldar to due to faq.

Why buy dumb miniatures at all? You never know when anything is going to get a nerf. So play with paper pieces instead. Or latest Dawn of War series.

Fire Prisms, lots of flyers, maybe fire dragons? Any thoughts?

These units are already good to great.

pilchard8 wrote:
Im holding off until March to buy anymore eldar to due to faq. Obviously reapers and shining spears will get nerfed, probably a bit too much like malific lords did but what other units are people anticipating becoming good? Fire Prisms, lots of flyers, maybe fire dragons? Any thoughts?

nah, your dudes aren't forge world. Forge world stuff is always up for a "eh, feth it, 300 point increase all around! Except this one, 200 points off. Enjoy your new meta".

 Shadenuat wrote:

Why are striking scorpions and howling banshees so much worse than Khorne berserkers?

How are Banshees worse than Berserkers? They are a great unit in their own right.

How so? Looking at the basic troopers the berserkers get 2 s5 ap1 and 4 s4 ap0 attacks, versus the banshees' 2 s3 ap3 attacks. A berserker costs a few points more, isn't nearly as fast but is a lot tougher (twice as resilient versus bolter fire). A banshee is cheaper, ignores overwatch, is a lot faster but also a lot more fragile.

Based on this I see berserkers as blenders, easy to fit into a list as they do their job without much help (I may be missing some things here, not a chaos player). Banshees won't be killing much without some serious supporting, support which you're then not using on shining spears, wraithblades or w/e. I see them more as throwaway chaff used to deny a shooty unit a turn of fire (as much as it pains me). They could be useful, but a lone vyper or small windrider squad could do this just as well while bringing some more dakka and fly to the table.

Is there something I'm not seeing here? I hope so, I really like the unit and converting up a squad is coming up on my hobby to do list!

Also Banshee's are cheaper than Berserkers. Its 13pts vs 23pts.

Thats not really a comparison, its more like Bloodbrides vs Banshee's would be a fit.

No, that codex doesn't exist.

It's more like Genestealers vs Banshees.

One of those is 2x better than the other, and it's also cheaper.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No, that codex doesn't exist.

It's more like Genestealers vs Banshees.

One of those is 2x better than the other, and it's also cheaper.

Bloodbrides are DE Elite Wych unit that is 13pts a model, Banshee's are 2x better then the Bloodbrides... man DE is so bad lol.
I understand the codex isnt out yet, but they are perfect examples. Even when the Codex comes out i doubt BB's will be viable.

Bloodbrides are DE Elite Wych unit that is 13pts a model, Banshee's are 2x better then the Bloodbrides... man DE is so bad lol.

Please don't make me sad... :(

I don't know why GW makes it so hard to make Wyches viable in recent editions.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Bloodbrides are DE Elite Wych unit that is 13pts a model, Banshee's are 2x better then the Bloodbrides... man DE is so bad lol.

Please don't make me sad... :(

I don't know why GW makes it so hard to make Wyches viable in recent editions.

Yeah i still cant believe how bad BB's are.... they are 8pt models with a 13pt tag before gear.

I still think Reapers should be 3 to 7 models. I only have 5 of any one color scheme (I have 3) so I am not using more than 5 at a time currently.(and make them a base 8 points much like Fire Dragons)

Although I do have a 6th unpainted one for years...just been waiting to paint it.

The trick is to make any Army that is not solely 1 faction to have a negative 1 CP for each detatchment.

So any Detachment that is not 100% BA, or 100% harlequin, 100% Behemoth is still legal but they lose 2 or more CPs.

That is a mild penalty for min and maxing traits/strategems....but enough that it could discourage a lot.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No, that codex doesn't exist.

It's more like Genestealers vs Banshees.

One of those is 2x better than the other, and it's also cheaper.

It gets even worse for Scorpions.

Eldar need a lot of love once you get past their upper crust.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


The gun is correct priced for sure, but the guy is only 5pts he is 5pts for a 3+ save, 3+ always to hit Guardian body..... Guardians aren't even 5pts, KABALS aren't even 5pts. If the Body was priced with its abilities he would be 9-10pts. .

Well the Shuriken Catapult is costed at like 2 points each.....compared with a Kabalite...assuming the splinter is a 1 point. So Kabal/Guardian are listed at about 6 points a model. Fire Dragons with a nice grenade are 8 points....so I think the reaper should be about that.

I disagree that the Reaper is worth more than a EML or a ML. Its a no brainer to take the 3pt upgrade for the Exarch. At most it should be 23 points.

Contrary I would make the frag shot more of a str 4, 3 shot 1 wound mode. So not quite as good as a ML Better for hordes and less dangerous to bikers and terminators. That would help the elder on one front and shut a lot up on another front.

So how do you guys plan taking down the flying hippos.

I mean Custodes jetbikes

What units???


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My thoughts that a Wraith list may be the best counter.

T8 Wraithlords neutralize a lot of the Hurricane bolters scariness.

What about WraithBlades or WraithGuard.??

Easy, just Jinx and Doom them. Doom for Dark Reapers, Jinx or anything with more than -3ap. They are not very hard for CWE. Custodes for sure should ally in Culexus assassin's.


My list is basically 12 bikes, 2 Culexus, 1 Vexilus, Celestine+1gem, 3 Seraphim, 2000pts

Edit: Fix my list forgot to add something.

Like we deal with all elite infantry. jinx and doom are brutal for tough units. Lowering the invul save is just crazy good to make those heavy weapons work. But even just shuriken fire will shred them with those debuffs.

5 Dire Avengers: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4.4 wounds. 2.2 on a 5+, 2.2 on a 3+.
I'd say around 2-3 wounds against custodes bikes for a 64 point troop unit is pretty ok.

Smite and Executioner are good too.

Weidekuh wrote:
Like we deal with all elite infantry. jinx and doom are brutal for tough units. Lowering the invul save is just crazy good to make those heavy weapons work. But even just shuriken fire will shred them with those debuffs.

5 Dire Avengers: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4.4 wounds. 2.2 on a 5+, 2.2 on a 3+.
I'd say around 2-3 wounds against custodes bikes for a 64 point troop unit is pretty ok.

Smite and Executioner are good too.

I think your math is off.
12 shots. 8 hits.
Then 2.64 wounds. (or 4.4 with Doom)
Then with no jinx or doom you get .437 wounds ( .654 wounds with doom)
With jinx and doom you get 1.45 wounds

So that will take a whole squad 3 turns of shooting to kill 1 bike....If you get doom and jinx off.....if.

Huricane Bolters will eliminate all horde units long before then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My thoughts are 113 point Wraithlords.

4 attacks....2.68 hits 1.79 wounds .89 chance to pass armour for a d6 roll. (3.5damage)

With Doom and Jinx

2.23 wounds with 1.49 chance to pass armour for 5.229 damage.

So each wraithlord can take down 1 bike a turn.

Conversely when the 24 hurricane shots are unleashed.

20 hits 3.3wounds and 1 damage after saves.
WL laugh at them. Your Dark Reapers and such have 1 round before they are toast.

better fire and fade into a Wave Serpent to save 1 squad.

WraithGuard suffer more damage.

24 Hurricane bolter shots. 20 hits 6.61 wounds and 2.18 damage after saves. So they can hold their own.

Each WraithGuard has .224 chance to do d6 damage per shooting. with a 50/50 chance to kill 1 bike.
In a shoot out you will lose almost 3 WG for each flying hippo ...that is not point advantage to us.

I think Wraithblades deal an average of 1 damage per round with no Jinx and Doom.

 admironheart wrote:

I think your math is off.
12 shots. 8 hits.
Then 2.64 wounds. (or 4.4 with Doom)
Then with no jinx or doom you get .437 wounds ( .654 wounds with doom)
With jinx and doom you get 1.45 wounds

So that will take a whole squad 3 turns of shooting to kill 1 bike....If you get doom and jinx off.....if.

Huricane Bolters will eliminate all horde units long before then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My thoughts are 113 point Wraithlords.

4 attacks....2.68 hits 1.79 wounds .89 chance to pass armour for a d6 roll. (3.5damage)

With Doom and Jinx

2.23 wounds with 1.49 chance to pass armour for 5.229 damage.

So each wraithlord can take down 1 bike a turn.

Conversely when the 24 hurricane shots are unleashed.

20 hits 3.3wounds and 1 damage after saves.
WL laugh at them. Your Dark Reapers and such have 1 round before they are toast.

better fire and fade into a Wave Serpent to save 1 squad.

WraithGuard suffer more damage.

24 Hurricane bolter shots. 20 hits 6.61 wounds and 2.18 damage after saves. So they can hold their own.

Each WraithGuard has .224 chance to do d6 damage per shooting. with a 50/50 chance to kill 1 bike.
In a shoot out you will lose almost 3 WG for each flying hippo ...that is not point advantage to us.

I think Wraithblades deal an average of 1 damage per round with no Jinx and Doom.

His math was closer, you actually didnt include Jinx in your Avengers numbers. It ends up around 2.22 Damage with both Doom and Jinx involved.

After hitting, wounds, and invul each Wraithguard has a .2777 chance to get through without doom or Jinx. Not much better, but that is a noticeable difference.

Wraithlord's main issue will be actually getting into combat were he will still struggle (even with Doom and Jinx) to kill even 1 Custard Bike. 1.58 hits get through for 3-6 damage (assuming just fists for cheaper reliable damage). With one round of shooting with their missiles and then one charge into that Wraithlord, he is probably going to be looking pretty shabby.

I know I am looking into Wave Serpents more to keep my squishies safe for a round before I can dump buckets of dice on them. But honestly, Craftworld units have a nice variety of rending and good damage units that should chew through Custards pretty easily.

 admironheart wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Like we deal with all elite infantry. jinx and doom are brutal for tough units. Lowering the invul save is just crazy good to make those heavy weapons work. But even just shuriken fire will shred them with those debuffs.

5 Dire Avengers: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4.4 wounds. 2.2 on a 5+, 2.2 on a 3+.
I'd say around 2-3 wounds against custodes bikes for a 64 point troop unit is pretty ok.

Smite and Executioner are good too.

I think your math is off.
12 shots. 8 hits.
Then 2.64 wounds. (or 4.4 with Doom)
Then with no jinx or doom you get .437 wounds ( .654 wounds with doom)
With jinx and doom you get 1.45 wounds

So that will take a whole squad 3 turns of shooting to kill 1 bike....If you get doom and jinx off.....if.

Huricane Bolters will eliminate all horde units long before then.

"whole squad". I'm talking about a minimum squad of Dire Avenger. A standard troop option. They are not the best but they do pretty good against the bikers on a point basis with Doom and Jinx. In my opinion, you should always have Doom and Jinx anyways.


Custodes bikers are T6, W4, 2+, 5++ 90 Points per Model.
Minimum squad of Dire Avengers is 64 Points for 5 (4 + Exarch with two Shuricat)

12 shots on a 3+ -> 8 hits
8 hits on a 5+ with Doom -> 4.4 wounds.

With jinx the bikers have a 3+, 6++ save. Every 6 to wound roll has -3AP (Shuriken). You wound on a 5+, so 50% of the wounds are -3AP.
2.2 wounds on a 3+ save -> 0.73 unsaved wounds
2.2 wounds on a 6+ save -> 1.83 unsaved wounds

--> 2.56 unsaved wounds.

So ~100 Points of Dire Avengers kills one biker (90 points). I'd say for a standard troop unit that is decent. It may not be superspectacular but it's solid. Guardian Defenders would be even better per point. Also Doom and Jinx work for any other unit you shoot at them too. And you really want to Doom and Jinx custodes biker close to you... Because as you said, Hurricane Bolters kill t3, 4+ infantry pretty damn hard. Positioning and cover can help to mitigate some damage, but you want to kill them fast.

 admironheart wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Like we deal with all elite infantry. jinx and doom are brutal for tough units. Lowering the invul save is just crazy good to make those heavy weapons work. But even just shuriken fire will shred them with those debuffs.

5 Dire Avengers: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4.4 wounds. 2.2 on a 5+, 2.2 on a 3+.
I'd say around 2-3 wounds against custodes bikes for a 64 point troop unit is pretty ok.

Smite and Executioner are good too.

I think your math is off.
12 shots. 8 hits.
Then 2.64 wounds. (or 4.4 with Doom)
Then with no jinx or doom you get .437 wounds ( .654 wounds with doom)
With jinx and doom you get 1.45 wounds

Actually you forgot avenger shuriken catapults have bladestorm So:

12 avenger catapult shots with rending factored in result in 0.74 usw total.

With doom this results in 1.22 usw.

With jinx it's 1.08 usw

Jinx + doom is 1.81 usw

So you'd need two 5 man squads and 1 or 2 spare guardians to kill a single biker, as they have 4 wounds O.o. On the other hand 12 bolter shots would do 0.37 usw, so not too shabby for some troops (sm special weapons should even that out though).

**edit** changed math to take their 4++ into account

Math:

Weidekuh wrote:

 admironheart wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Like we deal with all elite infantry. jinx and doom are brutal for tough units. Lowering the invul save is just crazy good to make those heavy weapons work. But even just shuriken fire will shred them with those debuffs.

5 Dire Avengers: 12 shots, 8 hits, 4.4 wounds. 2.2 on a 5+, 2.2 on a 3+.
I'd say around 2-3 wounds against custodes bikes for a 64 point troop unit is pretty ok.

Smite and Executioner are good too.

I think your math is off.
12 shots. 8 hits.
Then 2.64 wounds. (or 4.4 with Doom)
Then with no jinx or doom you get .437 wounds ( .654 wounds with doom)
With jinx and doom you get 1.45 wounds

So that will take a whole squad 3 turns of shooting to kill 1 bike....If you get doom and jinx off.....if.

Huricane Bolters will eliminate all horde units long before then.

"whole squad". I'm talking about a minimum squad of Dire Avenger. A standard troop option. They are not the best but they do pretty good against the bikers on a point basis with Doom and Jinx. In my opinion, you should always have Doom and Jinx anyways.


Custodes bikers are T6, W4, 2+, 5++ 90 Points per Model.
Minimum squad of Dire Avengers is 64 Points for 5 (4 + Exarch with two Shuricat)

12 shots on a 3+ -> 8 hits
8 hits on a 5+ with Doom -> 4.4 wounds.

With jinx the bikers have a 3+, 6++ save. Every 6 to wound roll has -3AP (Shuriken). You wound on a 5+, so 50% of the wounds are -3AP.
2.2 wounds on a 3+ save -> 0.73 unsaved wounds
2.2 wounds on a 6+ save -> 1.83 unsaved wounds

--> 2.56 unsaved wounds.

So ~100 Points of Dire Avengers kills one biker (90 points). I'd say for a standard troop unit that is decent. It may not be superspectacular but it's solid. Guardian Defenders would be even better per point. Also Doom and Jinx work for any other unit you shoot at them too. And you really want to Doom and Jinx custodes biker close to you... Because as you said, Hurricane Bolters kill t3, 4+ infantry pretty damn hard. Positioning and cover can help to mitigate some damage, but you want to kill them fast.

Re your calculations: The biker will almost undoubtedly have a +1 invuln bonus from the Custodes detachment - you would be silly to play them without it. So a 4++ base going to 5++ with Jinx.

This may be the source of some of the discrepancies.

Ah, I missed that. Well, fourth time's the charm, I updated the outcomes and math. Good catch!

Edit: spelling

I play custodes and on the weekend played 3 games against craftworld/ynarri lists. Shining Spears and Dark reapers were the units i struggled to deal with. The spears can be hidden/deep striked to avoid being thinned out and their guns will weaken a squad of bikes then the charge will finish them off. While a big unit of reapers shooting twice will finish off a 3 man bike squad as well. Even buffed with guide and the stratagem and bikes doomed a guardian bomb managed to only kill a bike from the squad each game. Throw in some 2/3 smites and an executioner you can easily wipe of 3x3 squads of bikes in a turn.

shocker that the very best units in the codex, and maybe the best unit in the game, smash the bikers everyone was flipping out about.

RE: flying hippo circus, I'm seriously considering running a trio of war-walkers, two with SCs and one with BLs. Is it worth it? 250 points for 4 SCs, 2 BLs, 18 wounds with scout... it seems pretty decent?

Not sure whether taking two lords with dual shuri + sword or three walkers with four SCs and two BLs total is more optimal, especially with the lord's degrading stats. I guess both have their uses, and would depend on army composition.

Shinymarine wrote:
I play custodes and on the weekend played 3 games against craftworld/ynarri lists. Shining Spears and Dark reapers were the units i struggled to deal with. The spears can be hidden/deep striked to avoid being thinned out and their guns will weaken a squad of bikes then the charge will finish them off. While a big unit of reapers shooting twice will finish off a 3 man bike squad as well. Even buffed with guide and the stratagem and bikes doomed a guardian bomb managed to only kill a bike from the squad each game. Throw in some 2/3 smites and an executioner you can easily wipe of 3x3 squads of bikes in a turn.

So what were your results?

Did you win any....or all?

What was the army makeup of the ones you lost to? Was it more mission oriented loss or did your units get hit too hard?

 Puganaut wrote:
RE: flying hippo circus, I'm seriously considering running a trio of war-walkers, two with SCs and one with BLs. Is it worth it? 250 points for 4 SCs, 2 BLs, 18 wounds with scout... it seems pretty decent?

Possibly a bit fragile but hard to alpha and the firepower is impressive. Probably the best target for Guide you will find.

 Puganaut wrote:
Not sure whether taking two lords with dual shuri + sword or three walkers with four SCs and two BLs total is more optimal, especially with the lord's degrading stats. I guess both have their uses, and would depend on army composition.

I would probably opt for the WWs. I like my Wraithlords but opponents on jetbikes will out-maneuver them. I guess they will create a zone of risk but unless you are running a wraith-heavy or mechanised army, your opponent will likely have other targets for his hurricane bolters.

 Karhedron wrote:

I would probably opt for the WWs. I like my Wraithlords but opponents on jetbikes will out-maneuver them. I guess they will create a zone of risk but unless you are running a wraith-heavy or mechanised army, your opponent will likely have other targets for his hurricane bolters.

I completely forgot the jetbike bit. I could definitely see lords in a gunline list, providing said zone of risk whilst laying down some pretty heavy dakka. Personally I'd prefer the WWs tbh, bit more of an active counter but both are reasonably TAC. Cheers for the advice!

 admironheart wrote:

Shinymarine wrote:
I play custodes and on the weekend played 3 games against craftworld/ynarri lists. Shining Spears and Dark reapers were the units i struggled to deal with. The spears can be hidden/deep striked to avoid being thinned out and their guns will weaken a squad of bikes then the charge will finish them off. While a big unit of reapers shooting twice will finish off a 3 man bike squad as well. Even buffed with guide and the stratagem and bikes doomed a guardian bomb managed to only kill a bike from the squad each game. Throw in some 2/3 smites and an executioner you can easily wipe of 3x3 squads of bikes in a turn.

So what were your results?

Did you win any....or all?

What was the army makeup of the ones you lost to? Was it more mission oriented loss or did your units get hit too hard?

I lost all 3 games, the first game went to end of turn 6 and saw me left with my 3 units of guardsman sitting in my deployment zone and in itc scoring I lost 20-36. My list had a battalion of guard/sisters/assassins and a vanguard of 3x3 bikes with a vexila and bike captain. His list was a ynarri battalion ( cat lady, warlock, 2 squads of dark elder warriors, a 9 man shinning spears, and a 9 man reaper squad, plus a craftworld batt that have 2 wave serpents, 3x3 reaper squads, 2 farseers, 4x5 man ranger squads and a 20 man guardian squad.

I had a good alpha turn one and did a decent job of removing his screen but he passed all 12 3+ saves on his big reaper squad and then managed to get all his psychic stuff off so the big unit of reapers killed a bike squad.turn 2 I made a mistake trying to kill a crippled wave serpent in cc instead of charging his warlocks, and between Celestine fluffing her rolls and some decent invuls on his farseers didn’t kill either of them. One of my bike squads managed to then only put 2 wounds on a wave serpent, then got charged but the shinning spears and got killed, by the end of turn 3 I only had the captain, Celestine and my guard squads left and thanks to los and some lucky rolls dragged it out till 6.


Game 2 I removed the assassins and a unit of bikes for a termi captain and more vexillas a took a 6 man squad of bikes. He took an unchanged ynarri detachment but with an autarch and 4 less spears but his craftworld stuff dropped the 3x3 man reaper squads, a wave serpent and a squad are of rangers for 2 night spinners and another big squad of guardians.

I got stomped this game he was wise to my sisters Alpha strike movements this time and blocked half my possible movement space with his rangers which made getting to his reaper squad impossible. The lack of assassin and close sisters meant he got all his powers off on my bike squad so doomed,jinxed plus soulburst and guide on his reapers, while Celestine died turn 1 thanks to me poorly taking a wound on overwatch then when his spear unit charged she had to eat it all, in my turn 2 Celestine and the termi captain managed to not even kill the 5 man unit of spears. And then his two units of rangers game down and caused 3 wounds on my bike captain, by turn 3 all I could really do was kill a wave serpent and kill any left of chaff so a unit of guardians, his warrior squads, leaving him with 2 night spinners and his fire base of reapers and psykers so by end with only a vexilla and guard I called it.

So , there has been some interesting discussion on potential upcoming nerfs to Guard with the March update. I was wondering what my fellow Farseers think will change with Codex Craftworlds? Anything in particular you would like to see adjusted?

I guess it goes without saying that reapers will see significant points adjustments. It's pretty hard to argue against that really, they do seem pretty incorrectly priced. I find it bizarre they even got released in that state tbh they are a blatantly under-costed unit in what was otherwise a pretty well done codex imo. I wonder will Shinning Spears also see a nerf bat swung their way? I really hope they don't get hammered too hard because they are probably my favorite Unit and this is the first time I ever remember the being actually usable!

I hope they nerf Cat lady/Soulburst to be honest. Most armies are paying 2 cps to shoot again or 3 cps to fight again, the Ynnari ''soup' essentially gives that to Spears/Reapers/Guardians blobs every turn it ends up being a massive swing. If you look at in purely in the cp conversion term it's like + 10-15 cps to your army. Combine that with keeping your Craftworld specific stratagems on your Ynnari eldar units and it gets kinda ridiculous. It will be interesting how they address this because you also don't want to destroy people who genuinely like having a Ynnari army, perhaps they will need a Necron like rework. They might need to go in a different direction with Ynnari.

Played and won Eldar vs Custodes. 1200 points.

Alatioc:
Autarch
Farseer
2 Warlock
8 Dragons
5 Spectres
3x5 Rangers
Avatar
Wave Serpent

Vs

2 Jetbike Captains
3 JetBikes
3 Terminators
5 Wardens
1 Vexilla

Used the Rangers to screen, Bikes would kill them and consolidate into the Dragons behind them. Used Feign Retreat, then Doom, Guide, Jinx. Then would wipe out 2-3 Bikes shooting Melta and the Avatar CC.

When I ran out of Rangers, I used Spectres and Wave Serpent to screen. Terminators and Wardens were slow to keep up.

Had some lucky rolls to end up winning but overall, found Doom, Guide, Jinx and 1/2 range Melta to be effective. Dragons being able to Advance and shoot are somewhat fast moving.

No Ynnari, no Reapers, no Spears.

 Eldrad Ulthran wrote:
So , there has been some interesting discussion on potential upcoming nerfs to Guard with the March update. I was wondering what my fellow Farseers think will change with Codex Craftworlds? Anything in particular you would like to see adjusted?

I guess it goes without saying that reapers will see significant points adjustments. It's pretty hard to argue against that really, they do seem pretty incorrectly priced. I find it bizarre they even got released in that state tbh they are a blatantly under-costed unit in what was otherwise a pretty well done codex imo. I wonder will Shinning Spears also see a nerf bat swung their way? I really hope they don't get hammered too hard because they are probably my favorite Unit and this is the first time I ever remember the being actually usable!

I hope they nerf Cat lady/Soulburst to be honest. Most armies are paying 2 cps to shoot again or 3 cps to fight again, the Ynnari ''soup' essentially gives that to Spears/Reapers/Guardians blobs every turn it ends up being a massive swing. If you look at in purely in the cp conversion term it's like + 10-15 cps to your army. Combine that with keeping your Craftworld specific stratagems on your Ynnari eldar units and it gets kinda ridiculous. It will be interesting how they address this because you also don't want to destroy people who genuinely like having a Ynnari army, perhaps they will need a Necron like rework. They might need to go in a different direction with Ynnari.

Some points reajustment to Dark reapers it's almost asured or just some ability rewording (Inescapable accuracy only works vs vehicles or units with the Fly keyword)

about the Ynnari fix, i don't think they need a nerf, a quick Faq for Stratagems like specific craftworld ones only work for units who belong to such Craftworld detachments or rewording the Ynnari keyword so it overwrites the Craftworld one to force players to fully commit into Ynnari detachments. Also worth to notice some guy said the Ynnari wouldn't be a footnote and will be expanded with more units in the future (maybe with even a proper dex) .

That would have to be a brb errata considering stratagems for according detachments only. Seeing how ynnari and chaos abuse the system and more to come once more subfactions drop along the way (gsc come to mind).
Not going to beat a dead reaper, but they need tweeking. Just not the utter ndrfhammer pls.
On the other habd i would love a slight buff to Dire Avengers, preferrably for 10 man squads, scorpions and the wraithknight.

 Eldrad Ulthran wrote:
So , there has been some interesting discussion on potential upcoming nerfs to Guard with the March update. I was wondering what my fellow Farseers think will change with Codex Craftworlds? Anything in particular you would like to see adjusted?

•The Avatar needs some serious readjustment. If they're not going to redesign him, they need to at least drop his cost by 75 points.
•Every Autarch that isn't a Skyrunner needs a point decrease.
•Striking Scorpions are in the same boat. It'd be hilarious how bad they are if it wasn't so sad. Either drop them to 9ppm, or redesign them from the ground up.
•Banshees need a point reduction as well. Just like Scorpions, there is no universe where they should cost more than Genestealers.
•Wraithlords need Implaccable. And probably something else.
•Spiritseers need to go up in cost to at least 55ppm.
•Warp Spiders need to be redesigned. Make their guns get an extra shot for every 5 models in the target unit or something.
•Shadow Spectres need a point reduction. 27ppm MAX.
•Dire Avengers could probably use a small reduction in points, something like 10 or 11ppm. They're not bad, but they suffer a bit from master of none syndrome.
•Reapers need to be seriously nerfed, obviously. They'd still be a bargain at their old 36ppm. They should also lose their 'Inescapable Accuracy' rule on a turn where they move.
•Shining Spears could also go up a bit. Adjusting them to their base cost from the index while retaining their weapon costs from the codex would put them in a good place at 37ppm.
•Most of the Phoenix Lords could probably use a minor point decrease. You should also be able to take them as your general.
•Wraithknights need some serious point reduction.

TBH a little part of me still hopes they choose to remake warp spiders into the Anti horde option of Eldar armies they were on 2nd edition.

 Lord Perversor wrote:
TBH a little part of me still hopes they choose to remake warp spiders into the Anti horde option of Eldar armies they were on 2nd edition.

I think hawks are the most point efficient anti-horde at the moment. I rather dislike everything having rending other than lasblasters & scaterlasers. It means almost all our anti-infantry firepower pays for armor pen whether you want it or not. And if shuricatapults / cannons can pierce marine armor...why take banshees or starcannons? At least with the latter you get d3 damage for killing warriors / terminators / light vehicles.

 Eldrad Ulthran wrote:
So , there has been some interesting discussion on potential upcoming nerfs to Guard with the March update. I was wondering what my fellow Farseers think will change with Codex Craftworlds? Anything in particular you would like to see adjusted?

Reapers will go to 40.
Spears will go to 55.
Yvraine will go to 200 and soulburst.

Wave Serpents will probably go to 160.

Nothing will go down in points.

I think DR and SS will only go up by 5pts each, no change to Yvraine but changes to Ynnari keywords. WS might go up but i dont really see that happening.

 Fafnir wrote:

•Most of the Phoenix Lords could probably use a minor point decrease. You should also be able to take them as your general.

You can make them your warlord, they just don't get traits.

mokoshkana wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

•Most of the Phoenix Lords could probably use a minor point decrease. You should also be able to take them as your general.

You can make them your warlord, they just don't get traits.

Might as well be the same thing, really. Eldar command traits are pretty mediocre, but they're not nothing.

Hi guys, had a game vs Death Guard at the weekend and struggled with numbers and those Plagueburst Crawlers (they're really tough!). Any advice?

My list:



His list (from memory)


Game was Resupply at 1500 pts. He played it well, kept all his Infantry within 7" of the zombies and used Cloud of Flies + Dead Rise Again stratagems for the first 3 tuns to generate a huge blob of Pox Walkers that I couldn't target. Myphitic Blight Hauler trundled up giving everything within 7" a +1 armour save. I'm not sure if I just didn't perceive the threat from the Poxwalkers late game (when the objectives were revealed) but I ended up feeding the horde to a maximum of 67 zombies. It was either feed the horde of leave the stuff with guns alone to advance up into better positions and drag me down with weight of fire.

My Fire Prisms + Hemlock seemed completely ineffective against the Plagueburst Crawlers and even Linked Fire with the 2 of them was plinking off 5-6 wounds per turn which just seemed like a waste given the points differential. Hemlock eventually got killed by combined Smites and the Flamer things from the PBC's. Shining Spears tried charging a PBC and bounced, ending up isolated and got flamed by the other PBC in the next turn. Mortars from both then went to work and weight of fire from them just ground down my Windriders. Bad positioning from me got the Shadow Spectres caught by the auto-hits from the flamer (forgot the PBC's can move 10" and then auto-hit 9"). Held the Guardians in Reserve and they came down T3 when the Objectives were revealed, they helped thin the Poxwalkers out a bit but tbh it felt like a drop in the ocean at this point and I was trying to keep them from being charged and feeding the horde more, or at least lead the horde away from my objective if he did charge them...

Game ended up as a 5-3 victory to the Eldar, but only a late game shunt from the Farseer to grab his objective swapped the score from a 6-2 loss. Required a Guided Fire Prism to blast the last 2 wounds from a Doomed Plagueburst Crawler he had camping his objective as the Farseer Advanced onto the Objective (he'd swarmed mine with zombies). Eldar also had First Blood and Line Breaker.

After seeing a few games locally with the Aeldari I feel like the -1 to Hit craftworld trait just needs to go(along with that same abiity on other armies).

Almost anyone who is running things to win tends to go straight for the -1 to Hit because it is damn strong, and with long range Aeldari units it is ridiculous.

I'd personally love to see how Dark Reapers fare when two things are removed:

* Ynnari Soulbust
* Alaitoc trait

I feel those two things are too good of a force multiplier for the Reapers.

Also, did people see the results of the GT? I am actually surprised I didn't see more Aeldari in the top 10 compared to ITC. I know the scoring was a bit special, but even then I would have thought Aeldari would have been doing better.

Wait - Dark Reapers can’t get both Ynnari and the -1 hit Alatioc trait correct?

I mean they can be both Ynnari and Alatioc, it they won’t have the -1 hit trait?

They get stratagems not traits.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Wait - Dark Reapers can’t get both Ynnari and the -1 hit Alatioc trait correct?

I mean they can be both Ynnari and Alatioc, it they won’t have the -1 hit trait?

A Detachment containing any Ynnari is no longer a Craftworld Detachment (page 116 of the eldar codex) so it gains no trait. Nor does it unlock stratagems.
However the units are legal targets for stratagems unlocked with a 2nd Detachment that is all Craftworld. (providing they have the correct Asuryani or <Craftworld> keyword.

That is why tournament lists have a Ynnari detachment and an Alaitoc detachment.
And yes then they can use things like the Saim-Han stratagems to make a Ynnari Shining Spear unit (that also has the <Saim-Han> keyword) charge after advancing.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Wait - Dark Reapers can’t get both Ynnari and the -1 hit Alatioc trait correct?

I mean they can be both Ynnari and Alatioc, it they won’t have the -1 hit trait?

You can't have both, but people are playing an Ynnari Detachment(usually Yvraine with Reapers) with other detachments being Alaitoc. However, if you were to remove Ynnari from the equation you'd still be having a unit that can shoot more or less everything off the table with a -1 to Hit them while they themselves always hit on 3. So I would love to see how a unit of Reapers perform in an Ynnari army and also an Alaitoc army. A part of me wonders if they were originally playtested without Alaitoc or Ynnari setup which is why they were costed as they are.

In short I am really wondering how they were playtested to begin with and what setups and how they performed.

Ynnari is the issue. The stacking buffs really makes everything else that much better. They should FAQ Ynnari units to no longer have Craftworld keywords, which solves the stratagem problem. People could still take extra detachments, but it would remove a layer of synergy. This results in no actual nerfs to units, but it nerfs that strong army pairing of Ynnari and Craftworld.

Reapers absolutely need a point increase (why they were reduced from index to codex boggles the mind). Adding in a max unit cap of 5 for them with a 5 point increase and the removal of Ynnari use of stratagems should keep them as a solid choice, but prevent them from being too strong as they are currently.

I'm interested to know, has anyone had any luck with Warp Spiders in 8th?

I want to add some to my list for the models, but looking at the rules they seem weak compared to last edition without their jump-shoot-jump ability. The only way I can think to use them is fire support to soften up a unit before a charge from Spears, Wraithblades or whatever.

If anyone is having any success, in what squad size and role are you using them?

They are hot garbage. Shadow Specters, even after the overwhelming nerf, are still better at everything you'd actually want Warp Spiders for.

craftworld_uk wrote:
I'm interested to know, has anyone had any luck with Warp Spiders in 8th?

I want to add some to my list for the models, but looking at the rules they seem weak compared to last edition without their jump-shoot-jump ability. The only way I can think to use them is fire support to soften up a unit before a charge from Spears, Wraithblades or whatever.

If anyone is having any success, in what squad size and role are you using them?

They are in a weird position. There are units that do their job and better so I feel like I am wasting points on them. Which makes me a bit sad since I own two units of them.

mokoshkana wrote:
Ynnari is the issue. The stacking buffs really makes everything else that much better. They should FAQ Ynnari units to no longer have Craftworld keywords, which solves the stratagem problem. People could still take extra detachments, but it would remove a layer of synergy. This results in no actual nerfs to units, but it nerfs that strong army pairing of Ynnari and Craftworld.

You can't remove the Craftworlds keyword, because it would break many interactions (transports and auras mainly). But it would be easy to add one line before the stratagems' list, saying you can't use a Craftworlds stratagem on a unit with the Ynnari keyword.
But I still believe it would be better to forbid Craftworlds/Ynnari allies. Just make the Ynnari transformation apply to all detachments or none.

fresus wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:
Ynnari is the issue. The stacking buffs really makes everything else that much better. They should FAQ Ynnari units to no longer have Craftworld keywords, which solves the stratagem problem. People could still take extra detachments, but it would remove a layer of synergy. This results in no actual nerfs to units, but it nerfs that strong army pairing of Ynnari and Craftworld.

You can't remove the Craftworlds keyword, because it would break many interactions (transports and auras mainly). But it would be easy to add one line before the stratagems' list, saying you can't use a Craftworlds stratagem on a unit with the Ynnari keyword.
But I still believe it would be better to forbid Craftworlds/Ynnari allies. Just make the Ynnari transformation apply to all detachments or none.

How so? It just means the transports have to be Ynnari, and the auras have to come from "Ynnari" units instead of them staying as "Craftworld".

Kdash wrote:

fresus wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:
Ynnari is the issue. The stacking buffs really makes everything else that much better. They should FAQ Ynnari units to no longer have Craftworld keywords, which solves the stratagem problem. People could still take extra detachments, but it would remove a layer of synergy. This results in no actual nerfs to units, but it nerfs that strong army pairing of Ynnari and Craftworld.

You can't remove the Craftworlds keyword, because it would break many interactions (transports and auras mainly). But it would be easy to add one line before the stratagems' list, saying you can't use a Craftworlds stratagem on a unit with the Ynnari keyword.
But I still believe it would be better to forbid Craftworlds/Ynnari allies. Just make the Ynnari transformation apply to all detachments or none.

How so? It just means the transports have to be Ynnari, and the auras have to come from "Ynnari" units instead of them staying as "Craftworld".

You would therefore have to rewrite every transport and hero datasheet, so instead of affecting <craftworld> units, it affects Asuryani. You can't say it affects Ynnari units, otherwise it would allow CWE/DE/Harlies to share transports and auras, so Craftworlds would have to become Asuryani, Kabals and Wych cults Drukhari (which would create new interactions that don't exist at the moment), and Masque become Harlequins.
On top of a very tedious errata, this change would allow cross-craftworlds interactions: biel-tan guardians in Alaitoc wave serpents etc.
Putting a one line errata on CWE stratagems (and DE/Harlie ones when they eventually come out), or change the way Ynnari armies are created seems like an easier fix.

fresus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

fresus wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:
Ynnari is the issue. The stacking buffs really makes everything else that much better. They should FAQ Ynnari units to no longer have Craftworld keywords, which solves the stratagem problem. People could still take extra detachments, but it would remove a layer of synergy. This results in no actual nerfs to units, but it nerfs that strong army pairing of Ynnari and Craftworld.

You can't remove the Craftworlds keyword, because it would break many interactions (transports and auras mainly). But it would be easy to add one line before the stratagems' list, saying you can't use a Craftworlds stratagem on a unit with the Ynnari keyword.
But I still believe it would be better to forbid Craftworlds/Ynnari allies. Just make the Ynnari transformation apply to all detachments or none.

How so? It just means the transports have to be Ynnari, and the auras have to come from "Ynnari" units instead of them staying as "Craftworld".

You would therefore have to rewrite every transport and hero datasheet, so instead of affecting <craftworld> units, it affects Asuryani. You can't say it affects Ynnari units, otherwise it would allow CWE/DE/Harlies to share transports and auras, so Craftworlds would have to become Asuryani, Kabals and Wych cults Drukhari (which would create new interactions that don't exist at the moment), and Masque become Harlequins.
On top of a very tedious errata, this change would allow cross-craftworlds interactions: biel-tan guardians in Alaitoc wave serpents etc.
Putting a one line errata on CWE stratagems (and DE/Harlie ones when they eventually come out), or change the way Ynnari armies are created seems like an easier fix.

I think, the better solution is to have the "Ynnari" keyworld replace the "Craftworld" keyword. This then becomes part of the Ynnari ruleset.

craftworld_uk wrote:
I'm interested to know, has anyone had any luck with Warp Spiders in 8th?

I want to add some to my list for the models, but looking at the rules they seem weak compared to last edition without their jump-shoot-jump ability. The only way I can think to use them is fire support to soften up a unit before a charge from Spears, Wraithblades or whatever.

If anyone is having any success, in what squad size and role are you using them?

I find them to be decent objective grabbers. They are fast, durable and cheap(ish). I often take a unit of 5 to complete an outrider detachment and they usually grab a couple of objectives. They can also be good at screening against T2 deepstrikers; if the rangers screens are killed on T1 spiders can jump in the gap.

I can't really recommend taking them but I don't feel like I'm totally shooting myself in the foot when I do.

Kdash wrote:

fresus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

fresus wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:
Ynnari is the issue. The stacking buffs really makes everything else that much better. They should FAQ Ynnari units to no longer have Craftworld keywords, which solves the stratagem problem. People could still take extra detachments, but it would remove a layer of synergy. This results in no actual nerfs to units, but it nerfs that strong army pairing of Ynnari and Craftworld.

You can't remove the Craftworlds keyword, because it would break many interactions (transports and auras mainly). But it would be easy to add one line before the stratagems' list, saying you can't use a Craftworlds stratagem on a unit with the Ynnari keyword.
But I still believe it would be better to forbid Craftworlds/Ynnari allies. Just make the Ynnari transformation apply to all detachments or none.

How so? It just means the transports have to be Ynnari, and the auras have to come from "Ynnari" units instead of them staying as "Craftworld".

You would therefore have to rewrite every transport and hero datasheet, so instead of affecting <craftworld> units, it affects Asuryani. You can't say it affects Ynnari units, otherwise it would allow CWE/DE/Harlies to share transports and auras, so Craftworlds would have to become Asuryani, Kabals and Wych cults Drukhari (which would create new interactions that don't exist at the moment), and Masque become Harlequins.
On top of a very tedious errata, this change would allow cross-craftworlds interactions: biel-tan guardians in Alaitoc wave serpents etc.
Putting a one line errata on CWE stratagems (and DE/Harlie ones when they eventually come out), or change the way Ynnari armies are created seems like an easier fix.

I think, the better solution is to have the "Ynnari" keyworld replace the "Craftworld" keyword. This then becomes part of the Ynnari ruleset.

Just doing a one for one swap for each main faction (CWE/DE/Harlies) would actually result in any ynnari unit being able to take any transport from those three factions. This would probably end up being too strong. A clever solution would be to replace <Craftworld> with Ynnari<Craftworld>, Ynnari<Masque>, etc. This would allow the unit to keep it's "flavor" but it would actually not allow the Ynnari<Alaitoc> unit to use Craftworld<Alaitoc> stratagems as they would be two different things.

As Fresus said, the easiest way to fix this is to simply add a line to the index that states "Ynnari units may only be targeted by Ynnari stratagems" and be done with it. No awkwardness with transports and auras.

The other nerf needs to be a charge increase, complete rework, or removal of word of the phoenix. It's single handedly what makes Ynnari as broken as it is.

Dark reapers should be brought back to their index pricing and the maximum squad size should be reduced to 5, maybe also increase the points on the tempest launcher too.

Thanks for the Warp Spider feedback guys! Looks like I'll take them as fire support, rapid reaction gap fillers and objective grabbers - I'll see how it goes.