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Post by: DarknessEternal
 Karhedron wrote:I am slowly warming to Wraithlords once again after using 3 in a Spearhead detachment against Custodes. The degrading profile is a pain but for around 400 points, you get 24 T8 3+ wounds
Wraithlords have 10 wounds each.
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Post by: Karhedron
 DarknessEternal wrote: Karhedron wrote:I am slowly warming to Wraithlords once again after using 3 in a Spearhead detachment against Custodes. The degrading profile is a pain but for around 400 points, you get 24 T8 3+ wounds
Wraithlords have 10 wounds each.
Whoops! Well, that makes them even better then! 
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Post by: Spartacus
 Fafnir wrote:Spartacus wrote:
This is why you can't ever trust tournaments from a balance standpoint. The game wasn't designed to be shorter than the prescribed 5-7 turns, and so many army styles suffer when you try to shoehorn a game into 2-2.5 hours
But if the game wasn't designed to end in two turns, why do they design each army to blow the better part of each other off the table by the first?
Because people build mobile, glass-cannon armies to take maximum advantage of the limited time available to them in a tournament environment. Why would you build an army designed to win a 6 turn game when you know it'll likely only last 2-3 turns?
I'd say I have relevant experience in time-critical tournament conditions, as well as a large fairly competitive gaming group where games are not time limited. The difference in games and top performing armies is huge. An army which could be totally irrelevant in a tournament and never scores any points can be massively effective given enough time/turns to move where it needs to be and win the battle of attrition vs its opponent.
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Post by: admironheart
Spartacus wrote: Fafnir wrote:Spartacus wrote:
I'd say I have relevant experience in time-critical tournament conditions, as well as a large fairly competitive gaming group where games are not time limited. The difference in games and top performing armies is huge. An army which could be totally irrelevant in a tournament and never scores any points can be massively effective given enough time/turns to move where it needs to be and win the battle of attrition vs its opponent.
See ...THIS!!
Instead of Narrative and Matched, etc... The games designers should have thought more of speed chess and chess.
So plan your smaller 1250 point fast rounds in a tournament setting.
Plan for bigger battles ala 2k points for leagues
And leave Flyers, super heavies and such for Apoc games.
There is no reason every single game CANNOT be Narrative.
As far as Historical games...they need to give us pre made lists/armies/board layouts, etc so that we can relive the Nids on Ultramar...etc.
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Post by: Fafnir
Spartacus wrote: Fafnir wrote:Spartacus wrote:
This is why you can't ever trust tournaments from a balance standpoint. The game wasn't designed to be shorter than the prescribed 5-7 turns, and so many army styles suffer when you try to shoehorn a game into 2-2.5 hours
But if the game wasn't designed to end in two turns, why do they design each army to blow the better part of each other off the table by the first?
Because people build mobile, glass-cannon armies to take maximum advantage of the limited time available to them in a tournament environment. Why would you build an army designed to win a 6 turn game when you know it'll likely only last 2-3 turns?
I'd say I have relevant experience in time-critical tournament conditions, as well as a large fairly competitive gaming group where games are not time limited. The difference in games and top performing armies is huge. An army which could be totally irrelevant in a tournament and never scores any points can be massively effective given enough time/turns to move where it needs to be and win the battle of attrition vs its opponent.
There are no viable long-game armies in 8th, even when you remove time from the equation (and I've never considered 'time to play' as an element of my assessment of a units' viability). Durability just isn't a thing in the face of the edition's overwhelming firepower and excessively fast movement. You can kind of get there with the more degenerate hordes, but that's about it. The best armies that wipe others off the table on turn 2 will continue to be able to wipe them off on turns 3,4,5, and 6.
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Post by: Farseer_V2
Spartacus wrote: Fafnir wrote:Spartacus wrote:
This is why you can't ever trust tournaments from a balance standpoint. The game wasn't designed to be shorter than the prescribed 5-7 turns, and so many army styles suffer when you try to shoehorn a game into 2-2.5 hours
But if the game wasn't designed to end in two turns, why do they design each army to blow the better part of each other off the table by the first?
Because people build mobile, glass-cannon armies to take maximum advantage of the limited time available to them in a tournament environment. Why would you build an army designed to win a 6 turn game when you know it'll likely only last 2-3 turns?
I'd say I have relevant experience in time-critical tournament conditions, as well as a large fairly competitive gaming group where games are not time limited. The difference in games and top performing armies is huge. An army which could be totally irrelevant in a tournament and never scores any points can be massively effective given enough time/turns to move where it needs to be and win the battle of attrition vs its opponent.
The implication here is that a list like the one that won LVO was built not to go the distance which is simply untrue. First I know of no tournament player who doesn't strive to have the game end naturally and certainly don't know any who are building for 3-4 turns of game play, simply because doing so can cripple you if the game goes longer. It would be foolish to build a list expecting only to get 2 turns if your goal is to win the event because any game that goes longer means your losing - that's not a gamble worth taking. Additionally (to use it as an example) the list that won LVO is just as punishing across 6 turns as it is 2 because of how much damage it does early, it will cripple most armies so quickly that its left to play the remainder of the game the way it chooses.
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Post by: AdmiralHalsey
Do Eldar play better in Major events because we as a whole have access to less re-rolls, and field smaller, elite lists, meaning we simply play faster and more effectively than our opponents?
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Post by: Fafnir
No. They do so because Dark Reapers are the best unit in the game.
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Post by: Karhedron
AdmiralHalsey wrote:Do Eldar play better in Major events because we as a whole have access to less re-rolls, and field smaller, elite lists, meaning we simply play faster and more effectively than our opponents?
With Doom, Guide, Autarchs and linked fire prisms, I think we have decent access to rerolls.
P.S. Reapers spam does bring a whiff of gorgonzola.
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Post by: Sarigar
Anyone tried mechanized lists? I was a big fan of 5th edition Mechdar and with the ability of most of our vehicles to leave assault and stil shoot seems to be significant. I've got a list I am looking at with 12 or so vehicles (Wave Serpents, fliers, Hornets etc...).
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Serpents are good but lack a bit of damage output, fire prisms are solid and become great if you have a pair (or more) and feed one cp a turn. Night spinners are under performing, as are vypers. War walkers are solid.
Eldar fliers are strong.
The "problem" is the infantry to be mechanized. Wraithguard are pretty expensive so you won't run a lot, psykers don't do things to units in transports and our basic infantry is hardly worth buying a transport for.
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Post by: Sarigar
Cpt. Icanus wrote:Serpents are good but lack a bit of damage output, fire prisms are solid and become great if you have a pair (or more) and feed one cp a turn. Night spinners are under performing, as are vypers. War walkers are solid.
Eldar fliers are strong.
The "problem" is the infantry to be mechanized. Wraithguard are pretty expensive so you won't run a lot, psykers don't do things to units in transports and our basic infantry is hardly worth buying a transport for.
A big difference in 8th is we can do without basic infantry. I can take a Spearhead (for example), and take one Warlock, 3 Fire Prisms, and now have up to 4 Wave Serpents available to take. However, I limit which Detachments are available if I don't take Troop choices.
I don't think it will be top tier, but it is mostly because I like the playstyle and enjoy painting Eldar vehicles.
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Post by: Purifying Tempest
If you enjoy mechdar and understand that it is not top tier, then it sounds like you've made your decision already.
Vehicles pay for endurance, which means they will put out less dakka per point than their fragile counterparts. Vehicles also control significantly less space that infantry piles for their points, which means your opponent has more freedom to deep strike around and put his counters into prime targets, basically he determines how efficient his army is with targeting priority.
I'm going to try a list with a couple of Wraithlords, a Knight, an Avatar, some Prisms, a Hunter Exarch... basically anything bad that I can toss in a list but looks like it rounds into a very fun army. I don't expect it to go and win some crazy number of games, but it should be good for a laugh and a few delightful games while everyone has salt saturating their taste buds due to Ynnari and Dark Reaper over-seasonings.
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Post by: Sarigar
Purifying Tempest wrote:If you enjoy mechdar and understand that it is not top tier, then it sounds like you've made your decision already.
Vehicles pay for endurance, which means they will put out less dakka per point than their fragile counterparts. Vehicles also control significantly less space that infantry piles for their points, which means your opponent has more freedom to deep strike around and put his counters into prime targets, basically he determines how efficient his army is with targeting priority.
I'm going to try a list with a couple of Wraithlords, a Knight, an Avatar, some Prisms, a Hunter Exarch... basically anything bad that I can toss in a list but looks like it rounds into a very fun army. I don't expect it to go and win some crazy number of games, but it should be good for a laugh and a few delightful games while everyone has salt saturating their taste buds due to Ynnari and Dark Reaper over-seasonings.
I have enough models to try out various combos. Some of the challenges have been turn 1 assaults and I would like to see if Mechdar has the durability to offset those assaults, then move away and still shoot. May or may not work. I play locally and attend a few 2 day events per year (within driving distance), which would be the match ups as opposed to LVO top lists all over the tables.
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Post by: Karhedron
I have found that our Grav tanks are very durable and usually live long enough to pull back from assaults and then light up whatever was trying to charge them.
Having said that, we have some great stratagems so getting 3 cheap Troop units to fill a Battalion is worth the effort in my experience. I normally run a mix of Avengers (to fill transports and nab late-game objectives) and Rangers for screening and board control.
Ulthwe, Alaitoc and Iyanden traits all have potential in a mechanised army.
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Post by: Purifying Tempest
I think saturation of either extreme has advantages.
Horde lists tend to devalue anti-tank weapons, as they really only have subpar targets to shoot at. Especially if it is a true horde list with no armor.
Armor heavy lists do not devalue anti-infantry as much as the reverse given that all infantry can threaten tanks on 5-6, but you have to eclipse your opponent's armor punching capacity to really reap benefits here.
Either style list can wreck havoc on lists who fit more in the middle. I think that mech lists are more affected by the local environment than horde lists are, given how infantry-friendly 8th edition is. But I think a good game could be had, regardless.
I was actually looking at Iyanden for my list with lots of armor and wraith constructs. Given that those things are going to be under duress the whole game... Iyanden makes that middle tier all but vanish, forcing people to push a lot more damage at individual targets before they become impaired.
Alaitoc is great, but it is as useful as your opponent's dice are streaky. Some games they'll never roll the number to make that -1 be significant, other games they never roll over a 2, so it won't matter anyways.
I do like Ulthwe, though. But I think in a saturated army, removing the middle tier is probably better than possibly negating 1-2 more wounds. Especially when you can just spirit stones a few of your more important assets and get Alaitoc/Iyanden on top of it.
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Post by: mokoshkana
Purifying Tempest wrote:Alaitoc is great, but it is as useful as your opponent's dice are streaky. Some games they'll never roll the number to make that -1 be significant, other games they never roll over a 2, so it won't matter anyways.
I do like Ulthwe, though. But I think in a saturated army, removing the middle tier is probably better than possibly negating 1-2 more wounds. Especially when you can just spirit stones a few of your more important assets and get Alaitoc/Iyanden on top of it.
One could roll a lot of 6's and make Ulthwe amazing, but ultimately anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Statistically speaking, your opponent will miss an additional 16.667% of shots fired outside of 12" due to Alaitoc's trait. This combined with Lightning Fast Reactions, will increase the number of missed shots by an additional 16.667% for an important unit.
The beauty of Ulthwe and Alaitoc is that they effect everything, not just units with degrading profiles.
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Post by: Dionysodorus
I mean, the reason that Iyanden is so terrible is just that it mostly only impacts a single unit per turn, and only sometimes. It's perhaps justifiable on something like a Scorpion or Vampire, if you're particularly worried about things within 12", but it doesn't make any sense for a list with tons of similar vehicles.
Consider an admittedly artificial setup, which is nevertheless pretty useful for thinking about how units stack up to each other: you take a ton of points of one unit and line it up opposite a ton of points of another, and then work out the average effect of their shooting on each other simultaneously over several rounds and see who's coming out ahead.
If you have a million points of Iyanden Wraithlords and a million points of Alatoic Wraithlords going at each other with twin bright lances from 24", the Alatoic Wraithlords absolutely crush the Iyanden ones. Because the Iyanden trait is a rounding error on this scale: the Alatoic group kills 23% of the Iyanden group in its first volley, while the Iyanden WLs kill only 17.5% of the Alatoic ones. Maybe there's a single Iyanden WL, out of the ~7000 you started with, which is on its second or third profile and gets a bump in the next round thanks to the trait, but this is basically irrelevant. In the next round Alatoic kills another 19.3% of the original Iyanden, while Iyanden kills only 13.4%. Probably somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the Alatoic WLs will still be standing when Iyanden is wiped out. The problem for Iyanden is that focus fire is a thing -- no one is bringing all of your vehicles down to half wounds before killing any of them. They shouldn't be doing this even without the trait in play -- you get more mileage out of killing wounded vehicles than in wounding new ones, unless negative hit mods are in play.
Obviously this is a limiting case, but the same basic principle applies when you have fewer vehicles. Iyanden does nothing for your vehicles that get killed in a single turn. It does nothing for your vehicles that haven't gotten shot yet. It doesn't even keep your hurt vehicles alive for longer, except very indirectly. It gives you a small offense buff on what's probably a single vehicle, provided your opponent even left one at a lower profile at all. Meanwhile Ulthwe and Alatoic just make all of your vehicles harder to kill, which will always improve your firepower in later turns because you'll have more vehicles alive to fire.
Statistically, Ulthwe is just always better than Iyanden for every vehicle in your list after the 1st. If your opponent is primarily concentrating on one until it dies, then moving to the next, the 3rd Ulthwe vehicle doesn't drop to half wounds until the 3rd Iyanden vehicle blows up. It always functions at at least the same level as the Iyanden one, and often higher. The math is a little trickier but this even holds true for the 2nd vehicle. When the 2nd Ulthwe vehicle drops to half wounds, the 2nd Iyanden vehicle is on its last profile, so they're at the same level on the damage table. By the time the 2nd Ulthwe vehicle is on its last profile, the 2nd Iyanden vehicle is dead. So that's why Iyanden is only even halfway tempting for the first vehicle in your list, and only if it's likely to survive while damaged.
It's also not really true that Iyanden is somehow more reliable, whereas the others are more prone to fail entirely due to bad luck. Iyanden is also prone to catastrophic failure when your opponent rolls some lucky damage and quickly destroys a vehicle entirely, whereas for the same number of shots that's a lot less likely to happen with Ulthwe or Alatoic.
Also, note that several recent codices have gotten a 1 CP stratagem that lets a single vehicle ignore the damage table entirely for a turn. Judicious use of this stratagem will often be even better than the Iyanden trait, because it's rare to have multiple vehicles on a lower profile and this lets a vehicle with 1 wound left shoot at full BS rather than just +1. A faction trait which is outdone by maybe 2 or 3 CP over the course of a game is not a very good faction trait.
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Post by: Purifying Tempest
I get all of this information, and in vacuums, it is great information. I like how we rail on Iyanden's trait when it is working at its worse, while giving Alaitoc the benefit of a flat "always on" state. Truly, the only one that is REALLY universal and impossible to somehow play around is Ulthwe, as a 6+++ is always a 6+++, and only really is meaningless when multi-damage vs 1 wound or overwhelming damage comes into play.
Mathhammer suffers from a lot of the same problems that real life war scenarios suffer from, the same problems that chess players can suffer from: it doesn't account for environment variables.
If I put a fire prism in line of sight of every lascannon required to destroy it, would that be a failure of Ulthwe/Alaitoc/Iyanden/god to save me... or would it be me just plain playing like a bone head? I don't play on wide open 6x4 play surfaces just for that reason. Then warhammer does devolve into mathhammer, and the game was decided at list creation.
While I cannot keep a fire prism out of 100% line of sight and range from EVERY threatening weapon in the enemy army, I can minimize the exposure. This is where 16.67% or whatever starts to skew, because the sample size is shrunken. Less attacks roll 3 to hit or I roll less 6s to save. Then, the opponent is forced to spread his fire across your base, and you do end up with multiple wounds on multiple vehicles.
Also, for 10 points, you can get Spirit Stones on a lot of vehicles and get the 6+++ where you want it and enjoy bits of both (Alaitoc and Iyanden could enjoy these).
Regardless, Mechdar and Wraithlord+ heavy lists are not top tier, they're not going to score well in mathhammer, and the trait isn't going to skew things so radically that it suddenly becomes awesome. That sure is a cop out of the discussion, but after a point, I get tired of seeing only Craftworld X or Y being viable. Alaitoc has to be the biggest Craftworld in the galaxy, anymore, by FAR. There may be a way to make some other craftworld traits not as bad, and injecting bias in a vacuum just won't allow that discussion to get past 16.67%.
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Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
I have played a few games with Ilyanden and the trait just does not come up. In two games it didn't have any effect whatsoever, in another it saved some guardians on a Ld test. I was using 20 man Guardian blobs and vehicles every time. Units were either wiped out or didn't take enough damage to need the trait.
If you can play entire games where your trait never even gets triggered it is a bad trait.
Ulthwe, Altioc and Beil-Tan have always triggered every turn in the games I have played with them.
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Post by: Dionysodorus
Purifying Tempest wrote:I get all of this information, and in vacuums, it is great information. I like how we rail on Iyanden's trait when it is working at its worse, while giving Alaitoc the benefit of a flat "always on" state. Truly, the only one that is REALLY universal and impossible to somehow play around is Ulthwe, as a 6+++ is always a 6+++, and only really is meaningless when multi-damage vs 1 wound or overwhelming damage comes into play.
Mathhammer suffers from a lot of the same problems that real life war scenarios suffer from, the same problems that chess players can suffer from: it doesn't account for environment variables.
If I put a fire prism in line of sight of every lascannon required to destroy it, would that be a failure of Ulthwe/Alaitoc/Iyanden/god to save me... or would it be me just plain playing like a bone head? I don't play on wide open 6x4 play surfaces just for that reason. Then warhammer does devolve into mathhammer, and the game was decided at list creation.
While I cannot keep a fire prism out of 100% line of sight and range from EVERY threatening weapon in the enemy army, I can minimize the exposure. This is where 16.67% or whatever starts to skew, because the sample size is shrunken. Less attacks roll 3 to hit or I roll less 6s to save. Then, the opponent is forced to spread his fire across your base, and you do end up with multiple wounds on multiple vehicles.
Also, for 10 points, you can get Spirit Stones on a lot of vehicles and get the 6+++ where you want it and enjoy bits of both (Alaitoc and Iyanden could enjoy these).
Regardless, Mechdar and Wraithlord+ heavy lists are not top tier, they're not going to score well in mathhammer, and the trait isn't going to skew things so radically that it suddenly becomes awesome. That sure is a cop out of the discussion, but after a point, I get tired of seeing only Craftworld X or Y being viable. Alaitoc has to be the biggest Craftworld in the galaxy, anymore, by FAR. There may be a way to make some other craftworld traits not as bad, and injecting bias in a vacuum just won't allow that discussion to get past 16.67%.
I don't find this to be a persuasive response, and below I'll get into why. I certainly agree that my million points of Alatoic vs Iyanden isn't representative of a real game -- I said that -- but I disagree that in real games of 40k it is feasible to hide your Fire Prism from the firepower needed to destroy it. IME the game often does devolve into mathhammer, even when there's significant terrain. It tends to be extremely hard in 8th to block LoS, and in addition lots of weapons are more mobile than they've ever been. I guess my question to you is: is this really your experience with the game, that your opponent is often forced to scatter wounds across a bunch of your vehicles because he just can't concentrate fire such that you often end up with multiple degraded vehicles? Or is this actually just your own armchair theorizing? My own experience lines up with Moosatronic's.
I don't think we need to assume that Alatoic is always on in order to see that it's hugely superior to Iyanden for mechanized forces or Wraith armies. You typically get more out of one turn of Alatoic than you will out of a whole game of Iyanden, and you can guarantee this with screening units. Alatoic is also especially likely to be useful for vehicles, because lots of anti-tank weapons suffer a penalty for moving. Even a Hemlock typically gets a lot out of the Alatoic trait despite needing to be within 16" to shoot -- as long as it is 13" away from the guy with the lascannon, he's going to be shooting it at -2 whether he stays still or moves closer. I feel like it is pretty inconsistent to talk like you can keep your vehicles out of LoS or range of a significant portion of the enemy army while then objecting that it's hard to keep more than 12" from enemy heavy weapons.
Even in games with lots of terrain, you can rarely count on being able to expose your vehicles to only a handful of anti-tank guns. Popular units that really don't care at all about terrain include: Fire Raptors (and other flyers), Obliterators and Scions (and other deep strikers), Seraphim and Coldstar Commanders (and other fast melta, but tbf these also don't care about Alatoic), and Manticores/Basilisks (and other artillery). Lots of other units care very little about terrain, such as Leman Russes, which can now move 6" and still shoot at full BS -- it is very hard to keep a vehicle out of LoS of any part of the Russ when it can do this.
I also note that Fire Prisms, while probably the easiest vehicle to actually hide due to their range (other than the terrible Nightspinner), benefit even less from the Iyanden trait than most other vehicles. You are probably bringing Fire Prisms specifically to use their stratagem -- otherwise you should just be using Crimson Hunters. The stratagem provides re-rolls to hit, which provide more relative benefit at lower BS. Where a Falcon is getting a 33% boost from Iyanden when at half wounds, a Prism with the stratagem is getting only a 20% boost.
It's true that you can duplicate the effect of the Ulthwe trait for 10 points per grav tank. So then the question is: is the Iyanden trait worth 10 points per grav tank? Now, obviously you should just be taking Alatoic instead, but we can ignore that for the moment and just ask what you're really getting for these 10 points. Let's do the same sort of analysis that I did last time for Ulthwe vs Iyanden, where we ask how many vehicles you need before Ulthwe is better, except now with Iyanden using Spirit Stones. Grav tanks are about 150 points, and SS add 6.7% to their cost. So if the two spend equal points on similar stuff, Ulthwe will have 6.7% more firepower from turn 1. Since the grav tanks from each are equally durable, this is a persistent advantage that Ulthwe will have whenever no tanks are degraded, and it will grow as your total firepower reduces when tanks die. When the first tank is reduced to half wounds, Ulthwe loses 25% of that one tank's firepower. Iyanden is now shooting better than Ulthwe as long as it's paying for SS on fewer than 4 tanks (so right from the get-go it's worse than just Ulthwe on an all-out Mechdar force, no matter what). Then when the first tank dies completely, Ulthwe is back on top, except now its absolute firepower edge is a larger relative difference. This will continue, where they keep trading the top spot, and which one is better depends on how likely it is that you have a degraded tank and how many tanks you had in the first place. I'd say that Iyanden with SS seems like a reasonable alternative to Ulthwe if you have no more than 2 tanks and it's basically 50/50 whether one will be degraded on any given turn. That's for something like a Falcon or Serpent -- for a Fire Prism you can probably only justify Iyanden with 1 since the stratagem cuts Iyanden's effectiveness so much.
I'm not saying you can't play Iyanden, and I don't mean to be attacking you for not playing something that's top tier. I didn't mean to communicate that the issue here is that Iyanden doesn't make Mechdar great; my issue is that Alatoic or Ulthwe are better traits for Mechdar. I was objecting to your claim that the Iyanden trait seemed more appealing on certain armies. I understand why people get this impression and I think it's important to point out that Iyanden actually gets worse the more vehicles you have, since that's counter-intuitive. I also think it's important to understand that it is basically never a better choice for a list than other traits. You can certainly still play it if you want, and more power to you.
At the top of my last post, I suggested what I think is the best-case scenario for Iyanden. What you want is a single huge vehicle that can take SS or which you're going to be casting Fortune on every turn, and (this is the part that's a reach) which for some reason you're expecting to take a lot of hits from inside 12". The Scorpion or Vampire chassis, for example. It's an especially solid pick for Vampires -- assuming you have some reason not to go with the obvious Alatoic -- because they have a very weird damage table that starts degrading at 78% wounds, and they lose a 4++ when they drop below that. Unfortunately CA nerfed the Vampire Hunter and therefore nerfed the single thing that benefits most from Iyanden. I doubt a single Skathach (or however that's spelled) Wraithknight is big enough to be worth it but you could give that a shot.
But, yeah, it sucks that the Craftworld traits are balanced so terribly. Alatoic is head and shoulders above everything else, Ulthwe is solid, Biel-tan is pretty meh, Saim-Hann is mostly only valuable for the stratagem but could potentially be upgraded to okay if Vypers and Scatterbikes get big buffs, and Iyanden is among the worst traits so far published (for the army that has access to it). You're not changing that. If you want to find specific builds where something other than Alatoic or Ulthwe makes sense you'd be a lot better off looking at some sort of shuriken spam with Biel-tan. Maybe tons of Guardians in Serpents in a meta where Alatoic isn't great.
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Post by: mokoshkana
Purifying Tempest wrote:Regardless, Mechdar and Wraithlord+ heavy lists are not top tier, they're not going to score well in mathhammer, and the trait isn't going to skew things so radically that it suddenly becomes awesome. That sure is a cop out of the discussion, but after a point, I get tired of seeing only Craftworld X or Y being viable. Alaitoc has to be the biggest Craftworld in the galaxy, anymore, by FAR. There may be a way to make some other craftworld traits not as bad, and injecting bias in a vacuum just won't allow that discussion to get past 16.67%.
But are you actually seeing Alaitoc, or are you seeing some Eldar armies with a different color scheme,say Mymeara, claiming to Alaitoc's Fieldcraft ability? Or worse yet, are you seeing examples of the other big five (Ulthwe, Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Saim Hann) claiming Alaitoc's Fieldcraft instead of the trait that matches their scheme?
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Post by: Gangrel767
mokoshkana wrote:Purifying Tempest wrote:Regardless, Mechdar and Wraithlord+ heavy lists are not top tier, they're not going to score well in mathhammer, and the trait isn't going to skew things so radically that it suddenly becomes awesome. That sure is a cop out of the discussion, but after a point, I get tired of seeing only Craftworld X or Y being viable. Alaitoc has to be the biggest Craftworld in the galaxy, anymore, by FAR. There may be a way to make some other craftworld traits not as bad, and injecting bias in a vacuum just won't allow that discussion to get past 16.67%.
But are you actually seeing Alaitoc, or are you seeing some Eldar armies with a different color scheme,say Mymeara, claiming to Alaitoc's Fieldcraft ability? Or worse yet, are you seeing examples of the other big five (Ulthwe, Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Saim Hann) claiming Alaitoc's Fieldcraft instead of the trait that matches their scheme?
Paint color makes little difference.
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Post by: mokoshkana
 Gangrel767 wrote:mokoshkana wrote:Purifying Tempest wrote:Regardless, Mechdar and Wraithlord+ heavy lists are not top tier, they're not going to score well in mathhammer, and the trait isn't going to skew things so radically that it suddenly becomes awesome. That sure is a cop out of the discussion, but after a point, I get tired of seeing only Craftworld X or Y being viable. Alaitoc has to be the biggest Craftworld in the galaxy, anymore, by FAR. There may be a way to make some other craftworld traits not as bad, and injecting bias in a vacuum just won't allow that discussion to get past 16.67%.
But are you actually seeing Alaitoc, or are you seeing some Eldar armies with a different color scheme,say Mymeara, claiming to Alaitoc's Fieldcraft ability? Or worse yet, are you seeing examples of the other big five (Ulthwe, Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Saim Hann) claiming Alaitoc's Fieldcraft instead of the trait that matches their scheme?
Paint color makes little difference.
Not with respect to his comment that Alaitoc is the biggest Craftworld because people are using its rules in game. A rule doesn't make the force Alaitoc, it just gives them the benefit of Fieldcraft. If they are painted as Alaitoc or a Craftworld that doesn't have a predefined train, then fair play. Otherwise its a load of crap to say that your primary black and secondary bone colored miniatures are Alaitoc, when clearly those are Ulthwe colors.
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Post by: Gangrel767
mokoshkana wrote: Gangrel767 wrote:mokoshkana wrote:Purifying Tempest wrote:Regardless, Mechdar and Wraithlord+ heavy lists are not top tier, they're not going to score well in mathhammer, and the trait isn't going to skew things so radically that it suddenly becomes awesome. That sure is a cop out of the discussion, but after a point, I get tired of seeing only Craftworld X or Y being viable. Alaitoc has to be the biggest Craftworld in the galaxy, anymore, by FAR. There may be a way to make some other craftworld traits not as bad, and injecting bias in a vacuum just won't allow that discussion to get past 16.67%.
But are you actually seeing Alaitoc, or are you seeing some Eldar armies with a different color scheme,say Mymeara, claiming to Alaitoc's Fieldcraft ability? Or worse yet, are you seeing examples of the other big five (Ulthwe, Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Saim Hann) claiming Alaitoc's Fieldcraft instead of the trait that matches their scheme?
Paint color makes little difference.
Not with respect to his comment that Alaitoc is the biggest Craftworld because people are using its rules in game. A rule doesn't make the force Alaitoc, it just gives them the benefit of Fieldcraft. If they are painted as Alaitoc or a Craftworld that doesn't have a predefined train, then fair play. Otherwise its a load of crap to say that your primary black and secondary bone colored miniatures are Alaitoc, when clearly those are Ulthwe colors.
I stand by my comment. Paint color shouldn't force you to choose an inferior rules set.
Paint color makes little difference.
Marine players have been doing it for years.
Having said that, I run my own craftworld (Maer Novar), who are painted Blue/Orange/Silver, and have been since 2nd edition. If I want to run Saim-hann detachment... I guarantee you they'll still be Blue/Orange/Silver (or their aspect color).
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Post by: Dionysodorus
Yeah it seems pretty silly to insist that people use the rules that correspond to their paint scheme. They're not saying "This is Alatoic". They're saying "I'm using the Alatoic rules". It'd be one thing if, like, Iyanden and Biel-Tan's rules did a great job capturing what's special about those Craftworlds and didn't fit any of the others, but nobody thinks this is the case. Iyanden isn't known for fearless Guardian hordes or particularly reliable grav tanks. Biel-Tan isn't known for especially competent Guardians. And all of the Craftworld rules are pretty plausible for Eldar as a whole -- it wouldn't be unfluffy for any of them to be a faction trait alongside Battle Focus.
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Post by: mokoshkana
Dionysodorus wrote:Yeah it seems pretty silly to insist that people use the rules that correspond to their paint scheme. They're not saying "This is Alatoic". They're saying "I'm using the Alatoic rules".
I think we are all saying the same thing here. I was trying to point out that Purifying Tempest's statement comes across to me as stating that all armies using Alaitoc rules inherently makes them Alaitoc in nature, but the rules on the table have to be somewhat separated out from the fluff though. The fact that everyone is using the best trait doesn't make everyone out there an Alaitoc player. It just means they want to use that rule to gain a competitive advantage, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Post by: admironheart
Any word when the March update will be released?
And will it be online or an actual book?
113007
Post by: Farseer_V2
 admironheart wrote:Any word when the March update will be released?
And will it be online or an actual book?
Its an FAQ so online. Most likely the last weekend of the month.
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Post by: ronjamin1022
I know the March FAQ is due any day now and that it. Could change everything, but are there any “safe” units that I could buy to build a 500 point starter list? I’m switching from Space Marines, which I picked because it was “beginner friendly” rather than what I really wanted to play.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Nope. If they listen to the internet, there will be nothing left.
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Guardians, War Walkers and Wraithguard are not likely to get nerfed imo, if you like any of those: go ahead. HQs should be pretty safe too, maybe a Spiritseer and a Farseer. Actually the only problems are with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers with strength from Death. I seriously hope they nerf Ynnari instead of all Eldar lists...
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Post by: wretched sylph
ronjamin1022 wrote:I know the March FAQ is due any day now and that it. Could change everything, but are there any “safe” units that I could buy to build a 500 point starter list? I’m switching from Space Marines, which I picked because it was “beginner friendly” rather than what I really wanted to play.
ronjamin, here are some good, safe, units that i think form a solid starting point @ 500 points: start with a Farseer and a Warlock for HQ; for Troops, 10 Dire Avengers and 10 Rangers; round it off with a Falcon (or a Wave Serpent if you prefer the larger transport over the larger gun).
This provides enough models to form a Batallion Detachment and comes in just a little over 500pts.
I suggest these units because they have remained consistantly good across editions. No edition has ever had, or will ever have, bad Farseers and Warlocks and they are always solid HQ choices. Dire Avengers and Rangers are versatile troops that can always prove themselves useful. With respect to the vehicles i mentioned, even though they're not hot right now i would still suggest the Falcon first, partly because of it's versatility (again), but mainly because it is the foundational eldar tank and, like the other suggestions, it is basically edition-proof (i also think the 2 shot / 3 damage Pulse laser is better than it's given credit for). But Wave Serpents are also always good performers.
Other more-or-less safe meta/edition-proof units are Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, and Vypers.
Despite playing Eldar since 2nd I have never fielded Guardians, so i probably shouldn't comment on them. 
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Post by: ronjamin1022
wretched sylph wrote:ronjamin1022 wrote:I know the March FAQ is due any day now and that it. Could change everything, but are there any “safe” units that I could buy to build a 500 point starter list? I’m switching from Space Marines, which I picked because it was “beginner friendly” rather than what I really wanted to play.
ronjamin, here are some good, safe, units that i think form a solid starting point @ 500 points: start with a Farseer and a Warlock for HQ; for Troops, 10 Dire Avengers and 10 Rangers; round it off with a Falcon (or a Wave Serpent if you prefer the larger transport over the larger gun).
This provides enough models to form a Batallion Detachment and comes in just a little over 500pts.
I suggest these units because they have remained consistantly good across editions. No edition has ever had, or will ever have, bad Farseers and Warlocks and they are always solid HQ choices. Dire Avengers and Rangers are versatile troops that can always prove themselves useful. With respect to the vehicles i mentioned, even though they're not hot right now i would still suggest the Falcon first, partly because of it's versatility (again), but mainly because it is the foundational eldar tank and, like the other suggestions, it is basically edition-proof (i also think the 2 shot / 3 damage Pulse laser is better than it's given credit for). But Wave Serpents are also always good performers.
Other more-or-less safe meta/edition-proof units are Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, and Vypers.
Despite playing Eldar since 2nd I have never fielded Guardians, so i probably shouldn't comment on them.
Thanks for the comprehensive feedback. I've definitely got my eye on a Farseer (might be able to get one used cheap) and I've considered Guardians/Rangers for my troop choices, I just wish they had plastic Rangers available. My idea for a 500 points originally involved using a 20-man Guardian blob and the webway, but I'll definitely consider Dire Avengers instead. From what I understand, they have better range than their Guardian counterparts, but are a bit more expensive.
I think I'm going to purchase a Farseer to start, along with a box of Dire Avengers or Guardians to assemble, just to give me something to get my paint scheme figured out with. I happen to have 3 old school metal Dark Reapers sitting around, but I want to wait for the FAQ before I commit to them or Shining Spears in my army (though I think they'd be in an army larger than 500 points).
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Post by: Bharring
I would strongly support the "A box" mentality. Doing one box of anything, at least at first, is usually a great way to start with CWE.
Once you know Guardians/DAs, then sure, get more of the one you like. But 10 Guardians and 5 DAs (and 5 Rangers) would be a good start.
Reapers or Spears would suck the life out of a 500pt game.
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Post by: Frowny
The other useful piece of advice is to get when you want to play. If you KNOW you are going to play X, because you just love the models, the ideas and the fundamental rules, buy one of those and start painting it. Even if the nerfhammer hits it, you already know you like the models. For example, I'm currently starting a dark eldar army. And I really like scourges. The models are just lovely and painting those big wings is great. So I bought a box, knowing I'll enjoy them even if they get nerfed in the new codex.
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Post by: ronjamin1022
Frowny wrote:The other useful piece of advice is to get when you want to play. If you KNOW you are going to play X, because you just love the models, the ideas and the fundamental rules, buy one of those and start painting it. Even if the nerfhammer hits it, you already know you like the models. For example, I'm currently starting a dark eldar army. And I really like scourges. The models are just lovely and painting those big wings is great. So I bought a box, knowing I'll enjoy them even if they get nerfed in the new codex.
This was the mistake I made a couple months ago with my first army. Picked Space Marines because “they’re beginner friendly” and not because I liked the army (though I think I tried to convince myself I did). After playing about a dozen or games with them at the 500-1000 point level and watching other armies’ models and play styles, I realized that I should’ve gone with Eldar to begin with. I like the diversity of their models, their synergy and psychic powers in general, and their lore is pretty interesting. Plus I’ve always played elven characters in RPGs.
I bought a Farseer that I’m going to paint/assemble (going for an orange and black paint scheme) while I wait for my Space Marines to sell on eBay, the use those funds to slowly build a 500 point list I like.
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Post by: fe40k
As an Ork player who's been playing a lot of Dawn of War 1/3 and been looking to get into a new army - outside of Dark Reapers, how are Eldar doing?
I've been looking over Battlescribe; and a lot of their units appear to be very expensive guardsman [which are underpriced in general compared to ANY army], and need luck (eg; rolling 6+'s) to get a lot of their abilities or effects off.
Some of the units I liked and was looking at; Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks, Shadow Spectres, Warp Spiders, Rangers.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
fe40k wrote:As an Ork player who's been playing a lot of Dawn of War 1/3 and been looking to get into a new army - outside of Dark Reapers, how are Eldar doing?
I've been looking over Battlescribe; and a lot of their units appear to be very expensive guardsman
Congratulations on your astuteness.
Shining Spears and Wave Serpents are also pretty good. After that, the codex is entirely poop.
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Post by: quentra
Having actually played Eldar, both semi-competitve variants and entirely fluffy lists, I've made the following observations:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
Psychic is god. I cannot stress enough how essential debuffs and buffs are. Your dudes are not very tough, and you lack the marine aura re-roll and your damage output barring a few special units is average. But once you get crap like Doom, Guide, Jinx, etc., rolling, your stuff becomes a huge threat. I've taken out Blackstars and Thunderhawks with fricken Shuriken Windriders thanks to buffs.
Speaking of, beyond the obviouly good units, (Spears, Reapers), Hemlock Wraithfighters are a core aspect of the list. Flyers in general, because the pretty-much-always on -2 to hit for flyers as Alaitoc (-1 Hard to Hit, -1 trait) is amazing. Your flyers go down easy, but actually killing them is tough. Throw in a warlock's Conceal and your flyers are never dying, ever.
Speaking of Wraithfighters, they are a perfect example of all-around goodness. It's a psyker to boot. Between smite and your autohitting s12 2d3 shot weapon you're usually removing around 5-6 models an attack. Obviously if you're facing crap like 120 boyz or $TEXAS poxwalkers, less impressive, but my meta is a lot of marines, and 5-6 marines off the table an attack is a good dent in their capabilities. But since it's s12, vehicles, monsters, everything is a good target.
Fire dragons in Wave Serpents are your standard melta, nothing stand-out, but solid life choices to include a squad.
Tl;dr the codex isn't poop. You want to make heavy use of your psychic, strategems (you have a lot of good ones, I mean a lot), and mobility. Kiting is one of your core strengths. You are not a static gunline, and your dudes will fall without good psychic backup, but you are expected to have your buffs up at all time. If your psychic is removed, your army is dead. It's a very enjoyable, tactical, and fluffy playstyle, which I highly recommend if you like hit-and-run and surprising amounts of damage out of nothing.
Last point: People really underestimate bladestorm. A ~16-17% chance to turn a 3+ to a 6+ really adds up considering the amount of just pure shuridakka you can put down the board. (Guardian bomb, for example, 38 bladestorm -3 + platform shurkicannon shots).
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Post by: Gangrel767
quentra wrote:Having actually played Eldar, both semi-competitve variants and entirely fluffy lists, I've made the following observations:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
Psychic is god. I cannot stress enough how essential debuffs and buffs are. Your dudes are not very tough, and you lack the marine aura re-roll and your damage output barring a few special units is average. But once you get crap like Doom, Guide, Jinx, etc., rolling, your stuff becomes a huge threat. I've taken out Blackstars and Thunderhawks with fricken Shuriken Windriders thanks to buffs.
Speaking of, beyond the obviouly good units, (Spears, Reapers), Hemlock Wraithfighters are a core aspect of the list. Flyers in general, because the pretty-much-always on -2 to hit for flyers as Alaitoc (-1 Hard to Hit, -1 trait) is amazing. Your flyers go down easy, but actually killing them is tough. Throw in a warlock's Conceal and your flyers are never dying, ever.
Speaking of Wraithfighters, they are a perfect example of all-around goodness. It's a psyker to boot. Between smite and your autohitting s12 2d3 shot weapon you're usually removing around 5-6 models an attack. Obviously if you're facing crap like 120 boyz or $TEXAS poxwalkers, less impressive, but my meta is a lot of marines, and 5-6 marines off the table an attack is a good dent in their capabilities. But since it's s12, vehicles, monsters, everything is a good target.
Fire dragons in Wave Serpents are your standard melta, nothing stand-out, but solid life choices to include a squad.
Tl;dr the codex isn't poop. You want to make heavy use of your psychic, strategems (you have a lot of good ones, I mean a lot), and mobility. Kiting is one of your core strengths. You are not a static gunline, and your dudes will fall without good psychic backup, but you are expected to have your buffs up at all time. If your psychic is removed, your army is dead. It's a very enjoyable, tactical, and fluffy playstyle, which I highly recommend if you like hit-and-run and surprising amounts of damage out of nothing.
Last point: People really underestimate bladestorm. A ~16-17% chance to turn a 3+ to a 6+ really adds up considering the amount of just pure shuridakka you can put down the board. (Guardian bomb, for example, 38 bladestorm -3 + platform shurkicannon shots).
Great analysis other than Warlock's conceal cannot affect our flyers. Only infantry and jetbikes.
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Post by: mmimzie
Need wise 1-5pt per model for spears and repeats wouldn't be too bad?? They'd still be pretty darn good. Wave serpents are also a tiny bit too steonf?? Decent damage out put and really hard to kill compared to other similarly priced models. (A rung down from plague burst crawlers.
The real required need is to ynnari. Honestly ynnari should lose all faction keywords outside of ynnari. I think all eldar models can't really be balanced if they arent also just strictly more powerful if they run ynnari.
As for models that could be buffed banshee and scorps couls use a drop of love. Both are decent now, but really lack the ability to fight right away.
Guardians/warlocksf/farseers/autarch are all in a great place and don't need much change.
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Post by: Tahnir
Absolutely agree about the scorpions. Also in a perfect world I would like the Biel-Tan Craftworld trait to be reworked into something like this: all aspect warriors reroll ones to hit. It would be fluffy as for now the main benefactor of the current trait are guardians which the biel tan Craftworld doesn't really use.
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Post by: Fafnir
Banshees are usable, but severely underpowered. Their primary value is to be inexpensive combined chargers so your better units can get in more safely.
Scorpions are absolutely worthless trash, however. Their only value is making me seriously question whether the Avatar is the worst unit in the codex.
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Post by: quentra
Gangrel767 wrote:quentra wrote:Having actually played Eldar, both semi-competitve variants and entirely fluffy lists, I've made the following observations:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
Psychic is god. I cannot stress enough how essential debuffs and buffs are. Your dudes are not very tough, and you lack the marine aura re-roll and your damage output barring a few special units is average. But once you get crap like Doom, Guide, Jinx, etc., rolling, your stuff becomes a huge threat. I've taken out Blackstars and Thunderhawks with fricken Shuriken Windriders thanks to buffs.
Speaking of, beyond the obviouly good units, (Spears, Reapers), Hemlock Wraithfighters are a core aspect of the list. Flyers in general, because the pretty-much-always on -2 to hit for flyers as Alaitoc (-1 Hard to Hit, -1 trait) is amazing. Your flyers go down easy, but actually killing them is tough. Throw in a warlock's Conceal and your flyers are never dying, ever.
Speaking of Wraithfighters, they are a perfect example of all-around goodness. It's a psyker to boot. Between smite and your autohitting s12 2d3 shot weapon you're usually removing around 5-6 models an attack. Obviously if you're facing crap like 120 boyz or $TEXAS poxwalkers, less impressive, but my meta is a lot of marines, and 5-6 marines off the table an attack is a good dent in their capabilities. But since it's s12, vehicles, monsters, everything is a good target.
Fire dragons in Wave Serpents are your standard melta, nothing stand-out, but solid life choices to include a squad.
Tl;dr the codex isn't poop. You want to make heavy use of your psychic, strategems (you have a lot of good ones, I mean a lot), and mobility. Kiting is one of your core strengths. You are not a static gunline, and your dudes will fall without good psychic backup, but you are expected to have your buffs up at all time. If your psychic is removed, your army is dead. It's a very enjoyable, tactical, and fluffy playstyle, which I highly recommend if you like hit-and-run and surprising amounts of damage out of nothing.
Last point: People really underestimate bladestorm. A ~16-17% chance to turn a 3+ to a 6+ really adds up considering the amount of just pure shuridakka you can put down the board. (Guardian bomb, for example, 38 bladestorm -3 + platform shurkicannon shots).
Great analysis other than Warlock's conceal cannot affect our flyers. Only infantry and jetbikes.
Ah, you are correct. Mea culpa! -2 to hit between Hard to Hit and Alaitoc will give people nightmares regardless.
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Post by: Atlatl Jones
I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too? Automatically Appended Next Post: quentra wrote:Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.
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Post by: mokoshkana
Atlatl Jones wrote:I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
quentra wrote:Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Cpt. Icanus wrote:Guardians, War Walkers and Wraithguard are not likely to get nerfed imo, if you like any of those: go ahead. HQs should be pretty safe too, maybe a Spiritseer and a Farseer. Actually the only problems are with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers with strength from Death. I seriously hope they nerf Ynnari instead of all Eldar lists...
Nah shinning spears issue is they cost about 15 points less than other bike units similarly armed - and they are better for it to. 4++ save to shooting? You have got to be kidding me. Dark reapers are the same way - cost less and are better than other heavy weapon units...they even have the added bonus of having a heavy on every model 3-10 unit sizes and a -1 to hit army trait...OMG.
The spirit seer could probably see a bump to 60 points.
At the same time I hope they reduce the cost of warlocks/ esp warlock bikers.
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Post by: Fafnir
 mokoshkana wrote:Atlatl Jones wrote:I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
quentra wrote:Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Spectres cost far too much to be good still. There is no way they should be costing more than spears. 28 would have been fine. Even before the nerf, they were still worse than Spears.
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Post by: Farseer_V2
mokoshkana wrote:
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.
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Post by: mmimzie
Fafnir wrote: mokoshkana wrote:Atlatl Jones wrote:I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
quentra wrote:Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.
I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Spectres cost far too much to be good still. There is no way they should be costing more than spears. 28 would have been fine. Even before the nerf, they were still worse than Spears.
is it bad that a part of me is of the opinion that if all the forge world models were alittle over costed, it would be okay???
Lol anywho, I don't really see anything geting a points drop in this FAQ. i seem a few poitns increases, and maybe some rules changes to some cards. To sort of soft nerf them.
What do you think they'd do Fafnir
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Post by: Xenomancers
 Farseer_V2 wrote: mokoshkana wrote:
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.
Spears are hugely undercosted though.
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Post by: Farseer_V2
 Xenomancers wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: mokoshkana wrote:
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.
Spears are hugely undercosted though.
Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.
91128
Post by: Xenomancers
Farseer_V2 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: mokoshkana wrote:
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.
Spears are hugely undercosted though.
Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.
No real way to determine what they should cost. Most similar units are terribly bad and overcosted. The PPD on these things is really high though - to put them in line with other elite PPD units they would probably need to go up at least 4 points.
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Post by: Galef
35-40ppm is probably the sweet spot for Spears. Keep in mind that they are also only T4, unlike other bike options that are "similarly armed". That makes a real difference.
But I agree, 31ppm is a bit cheap. Anything over 40ppm, however, would be an egregious over-nerf. May as well just stop production and toss them all in a fire
-
113007
Post by: Farseer_V2
Xenomancers wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: mokoshkana wrote:
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.
Spears are hugely undercosted though.
Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.
No real way to determine what they should cost. Most similar units are terribly bad and overcosted. The PPD on these things is really high though - to put them in line with other elite PPD units they would probably need to go up at least 4 points.
I'd be OK with a 3-4 ppm increase.
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Post by: Xenomancers
 Galef wrote:35-40ppm is probably the sweet spot for Spears. Keep in mind that they are also only T4, unlike other bike options that are "similarly armed". That makes a real difference.
But I agree, 31ppm is a bit cheap. Anything over 40ppm, however, would be an egregious over-nerf. May as well just stop production and toss them all in a fire
-
Yeah - I agree . Also the exarch lance needs a dramatic increase in price as well. Automatically Appended Next Post: Farseer_V2 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: Xenomancers wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: mokoshkana wrote:
Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.
Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.
Spears are hugely undercosted though.
Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.
No real way to determine what they should cost. Most similar units are terribly bad and overcosted. The PPD on these things is really high though - to put them in line with other elite PPD units they would probably need to go up at least 4 points.
I'd be OK with a 3-4 ppm increase.
Seems like a good place to start - then maybe a few points drop on the spectres and everyone would be happy.
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Post by: Galef
Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - I agree . Also the exarch lance needs a dramatic increase in price as well.
If you are going to make the Star Lance more expensive (which I agree it should be) that I'd suggest only 35ppm for Spears and increase the Star lance so that the Exarch is 40ppm.
5 extra point is enough for +1 to wound (sometimes) on only 3 attacks.
-
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Post by: xmbk
Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).
But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.
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Post by: mokoshkana
Specters are overshadowed by spears and Reapers. Once those get adjusted specters will improve. I'd say they might be a tad expensive, but that's probably due to Alaitoc being able to grant a static -2 to hit. Eldar always pay for potential synergies and buffs.
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Post by: admironheart
so the FAQ got pushed back? or did I hear incorrectly?
If so when is a guess it will be out?
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Post by: Farseer_V2
admironheart wrote:so the FAQ got pushed back? or did I hear incorrectly?
If so when is a guess it will be out?
Got pushed back and is now labelled "Spring FAQ" so no real idea on time.
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Post by: Xenomancers
xmbk wrote:Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).
But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.
I might be alone here but I prefer the crimson hunter. I play Ulthwe though so the hemlock costs 10 points more for me for spirit stones which do nothing because SS don't stack with Ulthwe. Aside from that though - I much prefer the way the unit plays. It's even better for Aliotoc as it will be -2 to hit almost all the time.
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Post by: Galef
Xenomancers wrote:xmbk wrote:Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended). But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.
I might be alone here but I prefer the crimson hunter. I play Ulthwe though so the hemlock costs 10 points more for me for spirit stones which do nothing because SS don't stack with Ulthwe. Aside from that though - I much prefer the way the unit plays. It's even better for Aliotoc as it will be -2 to hit almost all the time.
You might be alone in think the CH is better than the Hemlock, but I can certainly agree the CH is a great choice. I always include a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE. The only reason I don't include 2 CH and only 1 Hemlock is due to Hemlock being psykers (thus adding more tactical options) and needing to be in closer (thus needing redundancy for survivability). But the CHE is definetly an auto-include for me as it seems to be the best long ranged anti-vehicle platform in the codex IMO. -
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Post by: mmimzie
Galef wrote: Xenomancers wrote:xmbk wrote:Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).
But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.
I might be alone here but I prefer the crimson hunter. I play Ulthwe though so the hemlock costs 10 points more for me for spirit stones which do nothing because SS don't stack with Ulthwe. Aside from that though - I much prefer the way the unit plays. It's even better for Aliotoc as it will be -2 to hit almost all the time.
You might be alone in think the CH is better than the Hemlock, but I can certainly agree the CH is a great choice. I always include a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and 1 CHE.
The only reason I don't include 2 CH and only 1 Hemlock is due to Hemlock being psykers (thus adding more tactical options) and needing to be in closer (thus needing redundancy for survivability).
But the CHE is definetly an auto-include for me as it seems to be the best long ranged anti-vehicle platform in the codex IMO.
-
my thoughts are basicly exactly this??? Even going ulthwe as state here just bringing a fly wing is just money.
Love double hemlock as two sources of jinx gives some important reduancy on the spell, and casting more than one smite isn't the end of the world. Or if you really want you can have one take reveal, but i think double jinx is just better I tend to triangle the 3 fliers with my skyrunner autarchs and farseers in the middle which forces the opponent to have to deal with them if they want to get a table, and lets the farseers launch spells off in relative safety.
Another great use of the crimson hunter though is that you can forwarn the crimson hunter exarch and throw some shooting attacks that hit on 2+ rewroll onces (if you go second). I think if you go first your still at -1 one as the heavy rule states "it's preceeding movement phase" which would have your movement phase last turn.
the extra -1 to hit for alatoc is pretty nice for sure though, but in the meta right now that almost doesn't matter in the slightest. As i had said some time ago i think alaitoc is maybe kind of meh?? The meta right now is a lot of melee (blood angels, nids, shining spears, custodes), lots of hordes that don't even really care to fight you half the time or want to get close any way (poxwalkers, guard swarms), and dudes that don't even know -1 against (dark reapers/smite semi-spam). I think the -1 to hit really isn't that great or reliable against any of the good stuff, and everything else you kind of win any way??? I'd rather take a craft world that actualy reliably matters.
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Post by: Radikus
Where do we head after the inevitable nerfs? Let's assume dark reaps and shining spears get nerfed hard, ynnari as well. The go to for competitive lists becomes 2-3 hemlocks/crimson hunters or fire prisms and then wave serpent spam? Those lists are pretty dang good already, we might come out okay after the nerf bats.
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Post by: mmimzie
Radikus wrote:Where do we head after the inevitable nerfs? Let's assume dark reaps and shining spears get nerfed hard, ynnari as well. The go to for competitive lists becomes 2-3 hemlocks/crimson hunters or fire prisms and then wave serpent spam? Those lists are pretty dang good already, we might come out okay after the nerf bats.
so we have lots of units that are still good. Note a lot of the stuff out there that has been preforming well has been preforming well in some cases even pre chapter approved. What that means is that a lot of stuff is up to be nerfed, note our best showing was at LVO with ITC rules that basicly scream at the top of their lungs that eldar units are more powerful than they are in literally any other game format, do to very generous secondaries. For instance, adepticon and grand clash (both post LVO and both not ITC rules specific) eldar did much much worse than they did at LVO. Look at specificly the top at adepicon only saw 1 eldar player top 8 while grand clash i don't think i remember seeing any eldar??? So i feel like ITC either needs to back off with some it's secondaries and let GW balance or armies that shouldn't be harmed, will be harmed.
From that serpents are great durable transports (damage output not so much). Storm guardians jumping out are also super cost effective, as well as howling banshees quickened out of wave serpents are very powerful anti horde options.Guardian webway bomb is strong shooting as well.
As you said hemlocks/crimson hunters are also very good, and with out shining spears and dark reapers are out best anti big stuff units. Farseers and warlocks always have a place as well.
From there i think shining speers and dark reapers could still be good. As i said it's really just LVO that shifts things unnecessarily. Also shining speers would still be good at +5pts more a model. Even approaching 10pts/model the shining spear still have alot of good math in thier favor.as each one is damage wise alittle better than half a single vertus prator for custodes. Where they'd start falling off is durability, but even then shining spears are monsters at being force multiplied a full squad loves every buff the craftworld codex can supply and thier cost effectiveness with the buffs just fly so far through the roof it's kinda crazy.
Repears are the ones most likely to suffer every boost in points cost. For one against most targets units of reapers were getting out shot (in the shooting phase alone), but shining spears, and thier main benefit is just longer range and being close to a ynnari character who can give them lots of TLC. With out this they fall off quickly. Also the reapers can't fall back on being buffed to the moon like shining spears can. Not to mention meta's out side of LVO reapers fall off because they struggle to deal with real hordes and some monster mash list like that of what was brought at LVO.
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Post by: Eihnlazer
Im expecting DR to go up a few points 3-5 and dropping max unit size to 6 (if we are being fair).
Shining spears just need to cost a bit more. They should be about 10% more expensive or so. I wouldn't change the unit any other way.
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Post by: mmimzie
Ooo other unit that might not get touched that would still be amazing would be the skyrunner autarch with fusion gun/dark reaper laucher +lance.
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Post by: Marius Xerxes
mmimzie wrote:Ooo other unit that might not get touched that would still be amazing would be the skyrunner autarch with fusion gun/dark reaper laucher +lance.
I doubt that unit gets touched since its Index specific.
I don't see any index units getting looked at once the codex is out. Only the inevitable retiring of Index's once GW decides to stop publishing them when all the Codex books are out.
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Post by: Galef
 Eihnlazer wrote:Im expecting DR to go up a few points 3-5 and dropping max unit size to 6 (if we are being fair). Shining spears just need to cost a bit more. They should be about 10% more expensive or so. I wouldn't change the unit any other way.
I agree for the most part. 35ppm for a Shining Spear is appropriate. 40ppm for the Exarch with a Star Lance. If GW lowers the max unit size of Reapers, it will be to 5, since that is how many come in the box (and how many will likely come if they are ever remade in plastic) -
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Post by: mokoshkana
Galef wrote: Eihnlazer wrote:Im expecting DR to go up a few points 3-5 and dropping max unit size to 6 (if we are being fair).
Shining spears just need to cost a bit more. They should be about 10% more expensive or so. I wouldn't change the unit any other way.
I agree for the most part. 35ppm for a Shining Spear is appropriate. 40ppm for the Exarch with a Star Lance.
If GW lowers the max unit size of Reapers, it will be to 5, since that is how many come in the box (and how many will likely come if they are ever remade in plastic)
-
I actually think one of the problem's with reapers is their min unit size. Look at most of the competitive lists, where you have one max unit and 2-3 min units (with tempest launchers). Increasing the min squad size to 5 would reduce the min unit spam, but that does adjust the problem with max squads and SFD from Ynnari.
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Post by: Galef
Raising the max unit size address the SFD and stratagem use issue with Reapers.
Raising the points cost (particularly of the Tempest launcher itself) should fix this issue with min unit spamming.
So you end up having a unit that can be 3-5 models strong and even at minimum, with the Tempest launcher you are looking at over 100pts for the unit.
Keeps the unit worth taking, without being an auto-include.
-
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Post by: Dionysodorus
I worry a little with Spears that what makes them too good is their access to a couple of one-unit-only buffs. They see play in Ynnari lists because they're one of the only things that significantly benefit from the fight or move Soulbursts. They're really scary off of a deep strike (via stratagem) combined with the Quicken psychic power. They also benefit a lot from Protect. They're just about the only unit in the codex that gets much out of being Saim-Hann because of its stratagem.
But do you see that many small Spears units, or lists with multiple Spears units? Most lists that I've seen seem to just run one big unit, not even doing the Reaper thing where you also have some small units that aren't going to get buffed to infinity. But I could be wrong on this -- I don't pay very close attention to tournaments.
Something that's tricky about balancing units that get used this way is that the unit itself only represents some of the player's investment. You're not paying 270 points for 10 Dark Reapers. You're paying 500 points for 10 Dark Reapers and Yvraine and a Farseer. You're earmarking some CP to Fire and Fade them or deep strike them for safety or whatever else. You can make Dark Reapers themselves 10% more expensive and you've only raised the cost of this combination by 5% (not even considering the CP investment). You've mainly nerfed MSU Reapers that aren't getting buffed. And probably you do want to do that too, but it's unfortunate that your nerf is least effective at getting rid of the most abusive way to use them.
I don't really care about Reapers. They're not a very Eldar-y unit anyway. But I do really want it to be the case that a good Eldar list is happy including some small units of Shining Spears, which you're not planning on turning into deathstars that are unkillable and fight twice each turn.
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Post by: mmimzie
These are pretty good insight. I think Dionysodrus has a really point in that the streat of shining spears and maybe all of eldar to some a great extent is about synergy hammer. Most of armies definitly have synergies, but they don't go quite as far as eldar can go. With Doom/Guide are pretty close to the extents other armies go with syngery hammer. But then, we also have protect/conceal/fortune that can be used to bolster survival Then on top of that our melee units get even more sauce from Empower/enhance/quicken. All of which does a few things.
For one as Diony say's it make it hard to really just nerf any one unit and see a big change. I think just killing ynnari and a slight poitns boost would still get us in a good spot for dark reapers. I Also don't hate Moko's idea of boosting minimum unit size for dark weapers to 5. As it makes getting those tempest lauchers alittle hard and weakens ynnari. Again though, i think any ynnari based concerns is more a need to just fix ynnari itself.
As for the shining spears as Diony states the spears really love those buffs. Droping ynnari, or making it so they can't go ynnarri would fix that issue. However, even with a points boost they'll still be one of the best units to buff you can get. 9 models with the fire power of 18-27 other models makes them one of the best targets for buffs. Comparing shining spears to other units that can be buffed, a full squad of shining spears cost 281pts, where as howling banshees or striking scorpions cost 130/152pts respectively. Thus your force multipliers go alot futher when buffing the spears over those other units, assuming they each did equal levels of damage per pts. So maybe these guys could do with a reduced max unit size?? or a points increase to where they sort of require the buffs to be powerful??
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Post by: mokoshkana
Dionysodorus wrote:I worry a little with Spears that what makes them too good is their access to a couple of one-unit-only buffs. They see play in Ynnari lists because they're one of the only things that significantly benefit from the fight or move Soulbursts. They're really scary off of a deep strike (via stratagem) combined with the Quicken psychic power. They also benefit a lot from Protect. They're just about the only unit in the codex that gets much out of being Saim-Hann because of its stratagem.
But do you see that many small Spears units, or lists with multiple Spears units? Most lists that I've seen seem to just run one big unit, not even doing the Reaper thing where you also have some small units that aren't going to get buffed to infinity. But I could be wrong on this -- I don't pay very close attention to tournaments.
Something that's tricky about balancing units that get used this way is that the unit itself only represents some of the player's investment. You're not paying 270 points for 10 Dark Reapers. You're paying 500 points for 10 Dark Reapers and Yvraine and a Farseer. You're earmarking some CP to Fire and Fade them or deep strike them for safety or whatever else. You can make Dark Reapers themselves 10% more expensive and you've only raised the cost of this combination by 5% (not even considering the CP investment). You've mainly nerfed MSU Reapers that aren't getting buffed. And probably you do want to do that too, but it's unfortunate that your nerf is least effective at getting rid of the most abusive way to use them.
I don't really care about Reapers. They're not a very Eldar-y unit anyway. But I do really want it to be the case that a good Eldar list is happy including some small units of Shining Spears, which you're not planning on turning into deathstars that are unkillable and fight twice each turn.
Eldar's strength is synergy. This is the problem that makes them incredibly difficult to balance.
Increasing spears in cost and reducing their max unit size to 6 (double their min size and two boxes worth) would help bring them back slightly without making them worthless. The reduced max squad size makes the buffs they can receive less potent. Automatically Appended Next Post: mmimzie wrote:For one as Diony say's it make it hard to really just nerf any one unit and see a big change. I think just killing ynnari and a slight poitns boost would still get us in a good spot for dark reapers. I Also don't hate Moko's idea of boosting minimum unit size for dark weapers to 5. As it makes getting those tempest lauchers alittle hard and weakens ynnari. Again though, i think any ynnari based concerns is more a need to just fix ynnari itself.
That's the point though. Tempest launchers are too good. Either they need a massive increase in points, or the squad size can increase to make them less effective. Five guys hiding from LOS in order to make full use of that tempest launcher is more of a waste than three guys.
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Post by: Weidekuh
Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?
So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?
I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.
Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Any question for Eldar is answered with dark reapers, shining spears, Ynnari. Also how they get rekt with the FAQ.
I'm having a great time with my knife ears.
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Post by: mmimzie
Weidekuh wrote:Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?
So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?
I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.
Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers
Lol I had the same thought. Just for me we are stuck with out the current FAQ. There aren't alot of compelling reasons not to take dark reapers or shining spears with some sort of character support.
It's so much so that picking most any other units seems almost dumb in comparison?? So I think to some extent we are kind of looking for those nerds to give us more design freedom. Even more so because i feel like eldar out side of dark reapers have some really good optuons: guardians, wave serpents, howling banshee, hemlock, and CHE all bare out well when you do the math and you look at your options for getting them where they need to be. Then swooping hawks and wind riders get honorable mentions because they math okau, and are very mobile, and wind riders namely do very well with CP and ranged attack buffs.
As for your list. Scorpions are meh. They can be pretty good with buffs and attacking a target in cover, but they need more support than I think thier situational usefulness warrants. I think I'd put banshee into a kaucher, also known as a wave serpent. They have to be quickend to make combat fron deepstrike anyway, and so if you throw them in a wave serpent and give them quicken they have an average charge range of like 34" which is awesome!!! Plus you get a wave serpent.
The wa4lock conclave also want a waveseprent. I'm sure they could deep strike but it doesn't feel worth the cp???
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Post by: Sarigar
Well, the most challenging (IE: not overly competitive) is my Iyanden Craftworld list. I'm actually taking it out for a one day, 32 player event today just to see if I can win a single game.
1
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Post by: Weidekuh
mmimzie wrote:Weidekuh wrote:Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?
So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?
I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.
Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers
Lol I had the same thought. Just for me we are stuck with out the current FAQ. There aren't alot of compelling reasons not to take dark reapers or shining spears with some sort of character support.
It's so much so that picking most any other units seems almost dumb in comparison?? So I think to some extent we are kind of looking for those nerds to give us more design freedom. Even more so because i feel like eldar out side of dark reapers have some really good optuons: guardians, wave serpents, howling banshee, hemlock, and CHE all bare out well when you do the math and you look at your options for getting them where they need to be. Then swooping hawks and wind riders get honorable mentions because they math okau, and are very mobile, and wind riders namely do very well with CP and ranged attack buffs.
As for your list. Scorpions are meh. They can be pretty good with buffs and attacking a target in cover, but they need more support than I think thier situational usefulness warrants. I think I'd put banshee into a kaucher, also known as a wave serpent. They have to be quickend to make combat fron deepstrike anyway, and so if you throw them in a wave serpent and give them quicken they have an average charge range of like 34" which is awesome!!! Plus you get a wave serpent.
The wa4lock conclave also want a waveseprent. I'm sure they could deep strike but it doesn't feel worth the cp???
Oh I know the list could be improved. With LOS blocking terrain it's easy to hide the conclave and usually same for the Banshees.
Nice Iyanden army! I have 20 wraithguard/blades, 4 Lords and 3 Knights myself. Tell us how it went.
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Post by: fresus
I'm eager to see the rules for the new portal model which will be in the Harlequin book.
I don't think it will be very useful for my Harlies (unless there's a Masque tactic that allows reliable 9" charges), but it might be decent with wraithblades/wraithguards. Just another way to webway them in, but for points instead of CP.
And with a bit of luck we'll be able to deep strike bigger units (like a wraithlord), which would be great for wraith lists.
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Post by: Sarigar
Two of us went to a local tourney (36 players which was great for a one day event), and he demonstrated to me the utility of Banshees. Very fast, great turn one harassing unit, and not high on opponents threat list until they already reached asault. For 130 points, they really worked well in conjunction with the Gaurdian bomb; helped alleviate return fire.
So impressed with them, I bits purchased a full unit (I don't like finecasr at all and would prefer plastic over metal).
It was one of those lesser used units that folks don't immediately gun for, such as Shining Spears or Dark Reapers. Anyone else have positive results.
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Post by: Shadenuat
They are excellent tactical unit, even if not very killy. I like MSU squads of 5 with a halberd though.
I have 20 but I plan on expanding to 30 Banshees once this https://pp.userapi.com/c847218/v847218773/108ae/j1iPG8jSfKM.jpg from Artel comes out and try and run them with their 'mom.
I wonder what would happen if you combine banshees & spears with wyches with shardnet and impaler (d3 for enemy to fallback against your d6). That would probably make for a very frustrating army for shooty lists relying on overwatch and throwing shots from cover to play against.
Anyone has numbers for how effective Wyches are against GEQ's? If compared to our Guardian Defenders or Swooping Hawks. Esp. if we take cover, stratagem & psychic barrier into concideration...
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Post by: Sarigar
Weidekuh wrote:mmimzie wrote:Weidekuh wrote:Is it the paralising fear of the spring FAQ or has everything been said about CWE?
So question time: What is your most fun (not strongest) craftworld army you played since the codex?
I have to admit, I'm in love with my foot aspect warrior brigade army. It's just so much fun. Also absolutely love Eldar psychic powers and psykers.
Skyrunner Autarch
Farseer
Warlock conclave (4)
Asurmen
4x5 Dire Avengers
20 Guardians
5 Rangers
5 Fire Dragons
10 Banshees
5 Scorpions
2x5 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders
3x3 Dark Reapers
Lol I had the same thought. Just for me we are stuck with out the current FAQ. There aren't alot of compelling reasons not to take dark reapers or shining spears with some sort of character support.
It's so much so that picking most any other units seems almost dumb in comparison?? So I think to some extent we are kind of looking for those nerds to give us more design freedom. Even more so because i feel like eldar out side of dark reapers have some really good optuons: guardians, wave serpents, howling banshee, hemlock, and CHE all bare out well when you do the math and you look at your options for getting them where they need to be. Then swooping hawks and wind riders get honorable mentions because they math okau, and are very mobile, and wind riders namely do very well with CP and ranged attack buffs.
As for your list. Scorpions are meh. They can be pretty good with buffs and attacking a target in cover, but they need more support than I think thier situational usefulness warrants. I think I'd put banshee into a kaucher, also known as a wave serpent. They have to be quickend to make combat fron deepstrike anyway, and so if you throw them in a wave serpent and give them quicken they have an average charge range of like 34" which is awesome!!! Plus you get a wave serpent.
The wa4lock conclave also want a waveseprent. I'm sure they could deep strike but it doesn't feel worth the cp???
Oh I know the list could be improved. With LOS blocking terrain it's easy to hide the conclave and usually same for the Banshees.
Nice Iyanden army! I have 20 wraithguard/blades, 4 Lords and 3 Knights myself. Tell us how it went.
Thanks. Not unexpectedly, I lost every game. I did get to play against new Necrons and new Dark Eldar. Necrons dropped a Wraithknight and Wave Serpent on turn one. I knew Wraithknights were fragile this edition, but the number of dice that can be rolled is quite astounding to me. It's a decision I think I need to make when going to tourneys; play 100+ model count armies and try to compete or just play what I like and end up at the bottom brackets. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Shadenuat wrote:They are excellent tactical unit, even if not very killy. I like MSU squads of 5 with a halberd though.
I have 20 but I plan on expanding to 30 Banshees once this https://pp.userapi.com/c847218/v847218773/108ae/j1iPG8jSfKM.jpg from Artel comes out and try and run them with their 'mom.
I wonder what would happen if you combine banshees & spears with wyches with shardnet and impaler (d3 for enemy to fallback against your d6). That would probably make for a very frustrating army for shooty lists relying on overwatch and throwing shots from cover to play against.
Anyone has numbers for how effective Wyches are against GEQ's? If compared to our Guardian Defenders or Swooping Hawks. Esp. if we take cover, stratagem & psychic barrier into concideration...
Artel Banshees were beautiful and I was disappointed GW made him pull them so quickly. I bits ordered various DE parts to build a squad of 10 as an alternative.
I have not looked into DE rules deeply yet. I got my first game against them over the weekend and they were a blast to play against. Great models and fun rules to match. Having my Stratagem canceled on me by them was a very eye opening ability. I think it cost 3 CP, but it could be very clutch.
Spears and Wyches sound interesting, especially with Matchless Agility stratagem. I generally don't mix factions but Chaos and Imperial armies that do this are my biggest challenges.
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Post by: FarseerReborn
So, what's new in the faqs for Eldar?
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Post by: FarseerReborn
wow, Dark Reapers nerfed to death
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Post by: DemonEyesJason
I wasn't surprised to see that Dark Reapers went up, though they went up 7 points , which still puts them below index point levels though I'm not sure if the Exarch with a Tempest launcher is more than he was at index. I'd have to look closer when I get home.
I was surprised to see not only that the Shining Spears were untouched, but that our Psykers took a major points increase. Farseer from 100 to 110, Spiritseer from 45 to 65, Warlock from 30 to 55 (Ouch!), and Warlock Conclaive is now at 45 though I don't know the original amount for this one was per model. I can see the Spiritseer being too efficient, but I didn't think locks were needing to be doubled.
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Post by: Weidekuh
Point changes:
CRAFTWORLDS UNITS
UNIT MODELS PER UNIT POINTS PER MODEL (Does not include wargear)
Dark Reapers 3-10 12 +7 points
Farseer 1 110 +10 points
Spiritseer 1 65 +20 points
Warlock 1 55 +20 points
Warlock Conclave 2-10 45 +15 points
Comparing to the above:
Farseer Skyrunner 130, +20 points for jetbike.
Warlock Skyrunner 65, +10 points for jetbike.
Warlock Conclave Skyrunner 60, +15 points for jetbike.
For those points you get a huge movement increase, 4 shuriken shots, 4+ save. Hmmm....
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Post by: DemonEyesJason
Yeah at the price Warlocks are, there is no doubt that I'd rather run a Skyrunner version of them with the increased movement and the increased toughness and wounds.
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Post by: mmimzie
Skyrunner warlocks and Farseers are now the way to go lmao!!!
Spirit seers are kind of eh now unless you want a 3rd warlock???
Shining spears are king now??? Dark reapers weren't hit all that hard still pretty decent??? Maybe 2pts more per model increase than i would have gone with???
Honestly these are about where the changes should be. Lots of the stuff in our army that's strong is off the back of warlocks and farseers?? So they've been tamed by limited number you can take and by the relatively small points hike. It's certainly a choice between taking the bike or not, as that gun requires you to be 12" away to use which is a risky place to sit.
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Post by: Eldarsif
Not that surprised they didn't nerf more. Although Shining Spears are good they are still not at the same level as pre-faq Reapers. Also, Word of the Phoenix got nerfed so there is a change to a force multiplier.
However, I am surprised by the Warlock/Spiritseer changes. Never felt like they were the carriers of the army.
I also don't find the nerf too bad on Dark Reapers. We'll see how it plays in the field though.
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Post by: The only jp
I think the idea of a ynnari patrol still sounds good. Yvraine, guardian blob, 10 reapers (even with the increase) and max spears.
Even with the change to WotP, you only need to roll a 7 with yvraine, and you still have all the best soul burst abusers we had pre FAQ
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Post by: Shadenuat
The Reaper spike is nothing. Let's be friggin serious here, eldar drops 70 points yet now you can't deepstrike to alaitoc 1st turn so he has all the time to shoot and cast the spells.
You can't DS Spears 1st turn or move them after DS due to changes in warptime and similar stuff again, but you can safely sit behind terrain, prebuff and then roll out and you're king.
I mean, basically my lists change in that I drop like, 2 reapers. That's nothing.
Yvraine is now even better because she is even more cost effective since Reapers are more expensive.
Warlocks are wtf. It just means supah smart synergies like drain enervate horrify lololo will never see the light, you want quicken maybe & Smite. Spiritseers are better at Smite so GW wants you to buy that new spiritseer.
I mean, it may be cheaper now to spam Autarches for HQ roles than Warlocks (tears emoji)
Eldrad now looks very tasty compared to foot Farseer.
Everything else including serpents or hemlocks or spears is untouched. Yet while Eldar work through synergies of different units and have no need for spam, you can't spam against them and can't DS turn 1 against them.
I think Alaitoc might be in even better position now.
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Post by: mmimzie
Shadenuat wrote:The Reaper spike is nothing. Let's be friggin serious here, eldar drops 70 points yet now you can't deepstrike to alaitoc 1st turn so he has all the time to shoot and cast the spells.
You can't DS Spears 1st turn or move them after DS due to changes in warptime and similar stuff again, but you can safely sit behind terrain, prebuff and then roll out and you're king.
I mean, basically my lists change in that I drop like, 2 reapers. That's nothing.
Yvraine is now even better because she is even more cost effective since Reapers are more expensive.
Warlocks are wtf. It just means supah smart synergies like drain enervate horrify lololo will never see the light, you want quicken maybe & Smite. Spiritseers are better at Smite so GW wants you to buy that new spiritseer.
I mean, it may be cheaper now to spam Autarches for HQ roles than Warlocks (tears emoji)
Eldrad now looks very tasty compared to foot Farseer.
Everything else including serpents or hemlocks or spears is untouched. Yet while Eldar work through synergies of different units and have no need for spam, you can't spam against them and can't DS turn 1 against them.
I think Alaitoc might be in even better position now.
yeah i can agree with alot of this. More over spear starting on the table are pretty durable more so when they throw on lightning fast refexs. And with the lowering of some screens due to nerfs to deep strikes means you can sling those shining spears down your opponents throat all the easier.
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Post by: Shadenuat
To add - 3x5 DA s, 3x5 Rangers = 13 CP. Gotta keep those Lightning Fast Reaction cards coming for Spears.
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Post by: darkarchonlord
More like 2x5 DA, 1x20 Guardians, and 3x5 Rangers but yea.
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Post by: Sarigar
So, two Craftworld Battalions and an Ynnari Patrol?
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Post by: Shadenuat
If you can afford all the HQs.
Maybe Alaitoc Battalion + Ynnari Battalion would be more reasonable.
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Post by: Weidekuh
Something I just realized: You can't fire and fade units that came from reserves anymore.
And you can't embark in a transport after fire and fade.
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Post by: Sarigar
Shadenuat wrote:If you can afford all the HQs.
Maybe Alaitoc Battalion + Ynnari Battalion would be more reasonable.
It is a bit tight. I would like a squad of Hawks.
Alaitoc BN Farseer, Warlock, 3x5 Rangers
Biel Tan BN Asurman, Warlock, 2x5 Avengers, 1x10 Avengers, 1x10 Banshees
Ynnari (fast attack detachment with Saim Hann Craftworld). Yvraine, 1x20 Guardians, 1x8 Spears, 1x5 Reapers, 2x3 Windriders with Cannons.
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Post by: peteralmo
I'm most upset about not being able to deep strike my 20-man guardian blobs on turn 1, it's like radically changing the way I think about our troops choices, I'm not really sure which direction to go. Rangers are good and well, but you have to account for all the lost anti-infantry dakka from the guardians, and I don't want to spam more shining spears, the one squad of 9 I run is enough for me. Maybe Asurmen plus DA blob foot slogging?
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Post by: Sarigar
 peteralmo wrote:I'm most upset about not being able to deep strike my 20-man guardian blobs on turn 1, it's like radically changing the way I think about our troops choices, I'm not really sure which direction to go. Rangers are good and well, but you have to account for all the lost anti-infantry dakka from the guardians, and I don't want to spam more shining spears, the one squad of 9 I run is enough for me. Maybe Asurmen plus DA blob foot slogging?
I'm looking at that as well. The 4++ for DA with Asurmen helps to weather firepower if I don't have first turn. I found that I can at least have some additional durability. I dropped one of my two Guardian blobs with the rule change, although I can still see the purpose of having the second one foot slogging and use Celestial Shield to help mitigate turn 1 shooting.
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Might just go with 10man guardian squads in serpents and still keep a 20 strong in reserve for turn 2. I found myself withholding the guardians on turn 1 most of the time anyways.
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Post by: quentra
Cpt. Icanus wrote:Might just go with 10man guardian squads in serpents and still keep a 20 strong in reserve for turn 2. I found myself withholding the guardians on turn 1 most of the time anyways.
That's actually exactly what I did!
FACTION: Ulthwe CWE
+Air Wing Detachment+
2x Crimson Hunter Exarchs w/ twin brightlance
1x Hemlock Wraithfighter
+Battalion 1+
++ HQ++
Warlord: Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings w/ Banshee Mask, Shimmerplume Relic, Fusion Pistol
Elrad w/Doom, Executioner, Will of Asuryan
Farseer Skyrunner w/Singing Spear, Guide, Fortune
++Troops++
11x Guardian Defenders w/Shuricannon Platform
6x Rangers
5x Rangers
++Transport++
2x Wave Serpent w/Star Engines, Vectored Engines, Shuricannon
+Battalion 2+
++ HQ++
1x Warlock Skyrunner w/Singing Spear, Protect/Jinx
1x Warlock Skyrunner w/Singing Spear, Conceal/Reveal
++Troops++
20x Guardian Defenders w/2x Shuricannon Platforms
11x Guardian Defenders w/Shuricannon Platform
5x Rangers
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Post by: Helvost
It seems the shift in points with the newest FAQ is pushing everyone to bring more wave serpents and more skyrunners/jetbikes. Footdar with jetbikes also seems fairly viable with the increase in command points from a battalion or a brigade.
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Post by: mmimzie
peteralmo wrote:I'm most upset about not being able to deep strike my 20-man guardian blobs on turn 1, it's like radically changing the way I think about our troops choices, I'm not really sure which direction to go. Rangers are good and well, but you have to account for all the lost anti-infantry dakka from the guardians, and I don't want to spam more shining spears, the one squad of 9 I run is enough for me. Maybe Asurmen plus DA blob foot slogging?
As you said more shining spear exist.
Howling banshee with a wave serpent work well too with quicken they can skate accross the table turn one, and after math and a few warlocks buffs each banshee can kill almost 3 guardsmen. So that's 30 models down.
I'd say it cost alot with all the support, but if you already have shining spear you probably already have warlocks to buff them. Giving all your warlocks and farseers bikes is also pretty cost effective. Basicly each bile is like 2 guardians, but with Lots of move.
Maaaaaaybe a 10 man dire avenger unit with guide could do okay.
That said there is definitly a choice to be mad between guardians and DA now. DA can do stuff turn one, while guardians have to wait till turn 2 to play. That said one wind rider cost about as much as 1 DA with same damage out put and more durable. Though they need to get alittle closer to get shots off.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
mmimzie wrote:
Howling banshee with a wave serpent work well too with quicken they can skate accross the table turn one, and after math and a few warlocks buffs each banshee can kill almost 3 guardsmen. So that's 30 models down.
No they can't.
Even if you somehow managed to Quicken, Empower, and Embolden (which is already basically impossible and more than doubles the cost of the Banshees) they only kill 11 guardsmen. You can even throw 3 more in with pistols, but that's still 16 short of your 30.
A banshee can never kill 3 guardsman; they only have 2 attacks. Automatically Appended Next Post: mmimzie wrote:That said one wind rider cost about as much as 1 DA with same damage out put and more durable.
23 is not about as much as 12.
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Post by: mmimzie
DarknessEternal wrote:mmimzie wrote:
Howling banshee with a wave serpent work well too with quicken they can skate accross the table turn one, and after math and a few warlocks buffs each banshee can kill almost 3 guardsmen. So that's 30 models down.
No they can't.
Even if you somehow managed to Quicken, Empower, and Embolden (which is already basically impossible and more than doubles the cost of the Banshees) they only kill 11 guardsmen. You can even throw 3 more in with pistols, but that's still 16 short of your 30.
A banshee can never kill 3 guardsman; they only have 2 attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mmimzie wrote:That said one wind rider cost about as much as 1 DA with same damage out put and more durable.
23 is not about as much as 12.
Sorry miss spoke abit here was working off members from long ago when the book was fresh.
It's 2 DAs is about 1 wind rider with same damage out put which makes since because 2 catapult ~= twin catapult etc etc.
On the howling banshees it's actualy 21.66 dead guardmen with the 21 attacks the 10 howlings get + pistols and exarch. + enhance+ Embolden + supreme disdain + near by autarch also killing some stuff. Still not quite 3 each, but it's definitly up there. this is about 7 more wounds than a normal banshee squad would put out against guardmen with out buffs.
Plus you are right the warlocks are more than the cost of the banshee's themselves that said you can't quicken 2 squads of banshees into combat turn 1. It'd be more expensive becuase if i was taking the warlocks i'd take them on bikes because for 20pts you get 2 more shurikcan catapults. I'd probably also take quicken on a spirit seer that's biel-tan with the reroll spells relic so it's more reliable.
i mentioned the banshees also in the context of a list already with shining spears in which you already have atleast 1 or 2 warlocks any way to buff the spear, but if you wanted that list to also have a good buff target for anti horde you could take banshees. So you could buff the shining spears up against none horde armies as the +1 to hit and to wound would be pretty good on the spear against most stuff, but against hordes the banshees are alittle more effencient with the buffs. Only a tiny bit though. *shrug*.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
mmimzie wrote:
On the howling banshees it's actualy 21.66 dead guardmen with the 21 attacks the 10 howlings get + pistols and exarch. + enhance+ Embolden + supreme disdain + near by autarch also killing some stuff. Still not quite 3 each, but it's definitly up there. this is about 7 more wounds than a normal banshee squad would put out against guardmen with out buffs.
Plus you are right the warlocks are more than the cost of the banshee's themselves that said you can't quicken 2 squads of banshees into combat turn 1. It'd be more expensive becuase if i was taking the warlocks i'd take them on bikes because for 20pts you get 2 more shurikcan catapults. I'd probably also take quicken on a spirit seer that's biel-tan with the reroll spells relic so it's more reliable.
So your plan to kill 120 points worth of Guardsman involves 500 points worth of Eldar units relying entirely on randomness?
This is why I'm giving up on Craftworlds. People think that garbage is actually good.
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Post by: Mmmpi
So wait...I'm not sure I understand.
Other people making less than optimal builds is making you quit the army?
Not sure how that works, but hey, have fun with the next army you pick.
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Post by: admironheart
I want to see what a first turn looks like when no deep strike nids, etc don't hit the elder line.
Now I'm more than ever thinking a gunline with Walkers and WS with Footdar may be better than b4.
Other than spears....what mobile force could work best with an elder gunline.....? Hawks, a Mech list, Warp spiders?
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Post by: mmimzie
 Mmmpi wrote:
So wait...I'm not sure I understand.
Other people making less than optimal builds is making you quit the army?
Not sure how that works, but hey, have fun with the next army you pick.
Lol don't tease him. He's a salty one. He's always mad. Just <.< look at any of his thread history. It's hilarious.
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Post by: Mmmpi
That's fair. I don't always recognize the ones with the "Eternal Salty" special rule.
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Post by: quentra
admironheart wrote:I want to see what a first turn looks like when no deep strike nids, etc don't hit the elder line.
Now I'm more than ever thinking a gunline with Walkers and WS with Footdar may be better than b4.
Other than spears....what mobile force could work best with an elder gunline.....? Hawks, a Mech list, Warp spiders?
Did you really have a gunline with eldar? I've honestly never seen one. In fact, I've almost always left my DZ by turn 2. Between the short range or shuriken weapons and the fact that eldar aren't punished for advancing means that I've never seen a static eldar army, and no gunlines. But wave serpent+guardian spam is looking good, we'll see how the meta shakes up.
Plus, you still can run 3x5 reapers and spears, meaning that no matter what, eldar have a pretty good core. (I just wish wraithconstructs will be good enough to take one day!)
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Post by: admironheart
@Quentra
Well Distortion Cannons are best stationary behind LOS terrain.
War Walkers perform much better if they don't move. Same with WraithLords with 48" EML
Even WS hanging back making your own LOS terrain is a good wall for FarSeers and Warlock Conclaves to hide behind while they soak up fire and shoot.
ofc you can take your CH and have them patrol the back edge taking pot shots
And Prism Cannons love the corners and other LOS advantages.
So a lot of elder units and their use don't involve lets throw our guys out and get in their face....or the tactical sweep around the flank and fight the enemy piecemeal on our terms.
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Post by: quentra
admironheart wrote:@Quentra Well Distortion Cannons are best stationary behind LOS terrain. War Walkers perform much better if they don't move. Same with WraithLords with 48" EML Even WS hanging back making your own LOS terrain is a good wall for FarSeers and Warlock Conclaves to hide behind while they soak up fire and shoot. ofc you can take your CH and have them patrol the back edge taking pot shots And Prism Cannons love the corners and other LOS advantages. So a lot of elder units and their use don't involve lets throw our guys out and get in their face....or the tactical sweep around the flank and fight the enemy piecemeal on our terms.
Can there be an effective eldar gunline? Triple d-cannon support platforms and war walker/wraithlords with EML could do some work...Be fun to test it lol.
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Post by: DanielFM
Now that we can't Webaway Strike and Quicken a unit of D-scythe Wraithguard into range, how are we supposed to play them?
Only transported by Wave Serpents?
I play a grav-tank-less unit (I hate Wave Serpents) and now my unit is useless unless I buy them a ride. Thanks GW, that's what the game needed. More Wave Serpents ¬¬
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Post by: Kdash
 DanielFM wrote:Now that we can't Webaway Strike and Quicken a unit of D-scythe Wraithguard into range, how are we supposed to play them?
Only transported by Wave Serpents?
I play a grav-tank-less unit (I hate Wave Serpents) and now my unit is useless unless I buy them a ride. Thanks GW, that's what the game needed. More Wave Serpents ¬¬
Only option is the Wave Serpent, or running up the table.
Alternatively, you could swap to Wraithcannons and still webway strike them.
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Post by: FarseerReborn
So, what's the actual meta (post-Big Faqs) for Eldar competitive lists?
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Post by: Karhedron
DanielFM wrote:Now that we can't Webaway Strike and Quicken a unit of D-scythe Wraithguard into range, how are we supposed to play them?
Only transported by Wave Serpents?
I always ran mine in Serpents anyway. Regarding on a WC7+ power always seemed to risky to me. Use Cannon Guard to WW strike and mount up the Scytheguard (or hold them back to threaten anyone who tries to get close to your lines.
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Post by: Dionysodorus
I don't see that Support Weapons or War Walkers or Fire Prisms look any better now than they did pre-FAQ. If you want a "gunline" you're better off with Crimson Hunters, which can just strafe back and forth in your deployment zone. You can even bring 6 of them without running afoul of the new 0-3 restriction, but your big problem is going to be a lack of good anti-infantry shooting from range.
Building towards a big turn 2 strike probably makes a lot of sense now. Guardians are still a solid deep strike option. Serpents are very good at weathering fire on turn 1 but it's not clear what you'd put in them other than more Guardians. Fire Dragons or Wraithguard maybe, but neither of these are all that impressive. Spears still look fantastic, and in some cases it's still going to make a lot of sense to deep strike them given the new ruling on measuring charge distances with Fly -- with a favorable terrain setup they'll reliably be making it into combat. Hawks were borderline and now I think there's very little reason to take them. Ynnari Reapers are probably still very good, but they're harder to justify without Soulburst.
DE allies are pretty tempting. Better warlord traits and relics are nice. Warriors are a fantastic Troops choice and offer cheap bodies. You can put things in Venoms which have a -1 to hit and so don't stick out as vulnerable targets among a bunch of Alatoic units. Mandrakes are hurt by the FAQ but they do have 18" range, and maybe you don't want to bring them in until the Wave Serpents and Venoms arrive anyway. They inflict 50% more MWs than Rangers per point, also have AP -1, and even have reasonable CC presence. Lhameans are worth a look for much more efficient CC than anything Craftworld has access to. If you really, really want to gunline, DE also do that a bit better with Ravagers, and it might be worth looking at bringing some distintegrator cannons if you don't have a bunch of shurikens already.
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Post by: admironheart
You could always take an Aux detachment of 3 Wraithguard/blades in a Falcon if that is more to your liking.
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Post by: DanielFM
Karhedron wrote: DanielFM wrote:Now that we can't Webaway Strike and Quicken a unit of D-scythe Wraithguard into range, how are we supposed to play them?
Only transported by Wave Serpents?
I always ran mine in Serpents anyway. Regarding on a WC7+ power always seemed to risky to me. Use Cannon Guard to WW strike and mount up the Scytheguard (or hold them back to threaten anyone who tries to get close to your lines.
Yeah, I will go with WWS Wraithcannon guard, I need the points anyway to pay for the point hikes.
Don't you all think the Shriftshroud should be FAQed? As it can only be used in the first movement phase, you can only deepstrike in your deployment zone. It's absurd and seems contrary to the original intent.
It seems less and less useful now that you can't deepstrike and Quicken, anyway.
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Post by: Karhedron
DanielFM wrote:
Don't you all think the Shriftshroud should be FAQed? As it can only be used in the first movement phase, you can only deepstrike in your deployment zone. It's absurd and seems contrary to the original intent.
I think there are a few other upgrades/abilities that need looking at in light of the FAQ. Shiftshroud is one one and the BA stratagem "Upon Wings of Fire" is another.
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Post by: Kdash
Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.
On Wings of Fire is also clear. The FAQ states that any ability/power/stratagem that removes you from the battlefield and then “teleports” you somewhere else, counts as the unit re-entering as though they are coming from reserve. Again, this then means on the first turn you’d have to drop the unit into your own deployment area.
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Post by: DanielFM
Kdash wrote:Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.
Clear, yes. Basically useless, also yes. Untrue to the intention of the designers? Yes again.
If it let you deploy on the second turn, you would be able to do real deepstrike. As it is, you are forced to do the shi**y deepstrike.
This should be errata'ed if GW want us to keep one of our few relics useful.
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Post by: Galef
admironheart wrote:You could always take an Aux detachment of 3 Wraithguard/blades in a Falcon if that is more to your liking.
I would love, absolutely LOVE, if this were possible. But sadly the min unit size for Wraithguard/blades is 5, so they cannot fit into a Falcon. Unless you are referring to the "undersized unit" rule, which I have yet seen accepted as a valid list building rule in most areas as it is clearly "gaming the system" The rule is intended to allow you to run models that cannot reach minimum size. As WG come in boxes of 5, you should have 5. -
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Post by: quentra
DanielFM wrote:Kdash wrote:Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.
Clear, yes. Basically useless, also yes. Untrue to the intention of the designers? Yes again. If it let you deploy on the second turn, you would be able to do real deepstrike. As it is, you are forced to do the shi**y deepstrike. This should be errata'ed if GW want us to keep one of our few relics useful.
Honestly I feel like they're going to make a lot of exceptions if/when this rule leaves beta, like they already have with the Cult Ambush rule. To muddy the waters further, there's also this: 
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Post by: Kdash
quentra wrote: DanielFM wrote:Kdash wrote:Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.
Clear, yes. Basically useless, also yes. Untrue to the intention of the designers? Yes again.
If it let you deploy on the second turn, you would be able to do real deepstrike. As it is, you are forced to do the shi**y deepstrike.
This should be errata'ed if GW want us to keep one of our few relics useful.
Honestly I feel like they're going to make a lot of exceptions if/when this rule leaves beta, like they already have with the Cult Ambush rule. To muddy the waters further, there's also this:
Meh, i hope someone has replied to that reply telling them to go and update the FAQ document then, otherwise, it'll stay as an "unofficial" errata and not be usable in event games.
Sure, i admit they should probably be allowed to do so, but, it still needs to be done properly.
As for whether it suddenly makes the relic "bad", i'm not sure. I felt like i got more benefit from the additional -1 to hit, rather than its ability to deep strike, as those units i was often putting in deep strike were more aimed at suicide distractions, rather than a character to smash you in the face with.
EDIT TO ADD - The facebook post and reply seems to have been very narrow minded and didn't answer the true question we all want answering. It merely seems to indicate that you can still use the powers etc turn 1, but doesn't mean you can use them to leave your deployment area. One example further down the thread references the idea of you using it to redeploy from one side of your deployment area to another... not often going to happen, but...
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Post by: stratigo
It's only been a few days and the people real good at list building don't post here
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Honestly the only thing that's changed are the lists that brought like 25 dark reapers. Reapers are still top 3 EZ, spears are probably #1 now, guardian blobs are fine (keep in mind your opponent can't deepstrike close turn 1 now too, that's huge for our squishy asses).
Only thing I see is other deepstrike strats (besides guardians and maybe d-cannon wraithguard) being shuffled into wave serpents instead.
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Post by: admironheart
Galef wrote: admironheart wrote:You could always take an Aux detachment of 3 Wraithguard/blades in a Falcon if that is more to your liking.
I would love, absolutely LOVE, if this were possible. But sadly the min unit size for Wraithguard/blades is 5, so they cannot fit into a Falcon.
Unless you are referring to the "undersized unit" rule, which I have yet seen accepted as a valid list building rule in most areas as it is clearly "gaming the system"
The rule is intended to allow you to run models that cannot reach minimum size. As WG come in boxes of 5, you should have 5.
-
"my dog ate it"
The faq that made it a -1 CP for going that route pretty much took the teeth out of any argument vs the gaming the system stance.
You only have 3 detachments in a 2k game. If you give up 1 plus a CP your opponent should feel for you, not complain.
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Post by: Lithanial
Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?
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Post by: Ordana
Lithanial wrote:Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?
Re-deploy powers and stratagems still work as per todays info, pre-game stuff still works. Ranger's to protect are imo still very much needed.
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Post by: Lithanial
Got an example of something on those lines that is still a threat Ordana? I'm not putting 2 and 2 together there.
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Post by: Dionysodorus
Lithanial wrote:Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?
I played one game with the FAQ rules, and I found that my CP requirements expand to meet the amount of CP I generate. So I still want at least 2 and probably 3 Battalions in any Eldar list, and it's just hard to put those together without Rangers. I feel like you're always going to want at least 3 units of them, and then maybe the other Battalion is Guardians (deep-striking or in Serpents). It's not like your other options are much good. Avengers don't shoot that much better than Rangers even when they're within 18", and they're a lot less durable. You'll always want a couple of units to camp on objectives anyway.
Though a Dark Eldar Battalion is also a pretty easy include. I was playing with 2 Archons (blasters, huskblades, phantasm grenade launchers) and 3 small units of Warriors. Costs about the same as 3 Rangers and 2 Warlocks and brings some very solid GEQs, 2 18/24" lance shots, and some fantastic stratagems.
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Post by: Ordana
Lithanial wrote:Got an example of something on those lines that is still a threat Ordana? I'm not putting 2 and 2 together there.
BA pre-game move with Death Company. BA stratagem (on Wings of Fire) that re-deploys a unit outside 9" Ork "Da-jump". Necron Deceiver redeploy, RG Strike from the Shadows, Alpha Legion Forward Operatives, Genestealer Cult Ambush.
And probably more.
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Post by: Lithanial
Still not seeing the threat considering those redeploys count as coming in from reserves, so they can't be moved closer than 9" under the new rules so it's still some difficult charges to land.
Or again, am I missing something?
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Post by: mokoshkana
Lithanial wrote:Still not seeing the threat considering those redeploys count as coming in from reserves, so they can't be moved closer than 9" under the new rules so it's still some difficult charges to land. Or again, am I missing something?
You're missing the fact that those abilities allow those units to work as they did pre- FAQ with respect to turn 1 charge potential. The potential still exists, and some units, like the BA units, can use a stratagem to 3D6 charge.
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Post by: Lithanial
Ok cheers. Next question. Does the FAQ result in rangers having to be within our own deployment zone too as that's my current reading of it?
If so, what advantage are they giving as a screen over Dire Avengers (Better Overwatch) or Storm Guardians (Flamers)?
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Post by: Ordana
Lithanial wrote:Ok cheers. Next question. Does the FAQ result in rangers having to be within our own deployment zone too as that's my current reading of it?
If so, what advantage are they giving as a screen over Dire Avengers (Better Overwatch) or Storm Guardians (Flamers)?
Rangers are before the first turn and fall in the same window as Strike from the Shadows and Forward Operative. They can deploy outside your deployment zone.
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Post by: Lithanial
Understood. Cheers for the patient explanation.
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Post by: fe40k
How are we feeling about Swooping Hawks?
At the moment, their ability to Drop/Jump/Drop is gone (since you can't do anything on the first turn, and after 3+, they'll just be counted as destroyed), are they worth considering in any capacity?
Would lists be better server seeking a Dark Eldar replacement (Scourges, ?); or perhaps just not trying to replace them at all?
Although they were always overpriced Guardsman, I loved their concepts, deepstriking, dropping bombs, giving a -1 to-hit (SunRifle), and then leaping back up into the sky to do it all again another round somewhere else.
Shame about the reinforcements after turn 3+ are automatically destroyed if they're not on the table rule...
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Post by: Spartacus
fe40k wrote:How are we feeling about Swooping Hawks?
At the moment, their ability to Drop/Jump/Drop is gone (since you can't do anything on the first turn, and after 3+, they'll just be counted as destroyed), are they worth considering in any capacity?
Would lists be better server seeking a Dark Eldar replacement (Scourges, ?); or perhaps just not trying to replace them at all?
Although they were always overpriced Guardsman, I loved their concepts, deepstriking, dropping bombs, giving a -1 to-hit (SunRifle), and then leaping back up into the sky to do it all again another round somewhere else.
Shame about the reinforcements after turn 3+ are automatically destroyed if they're not on the table rule...
The Sunrifle blind effect doesn't actually work according to the wording of the rule. Effect runs out at the end of your turn. Without that utility they're pretty worthless IMO, especially compared to last edition.
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Post by: fe40k
Spartacus wrote:The Sunrifle blind effect doesn't actually work according to the wording of the rule. Effect runs out at the end of your turn. Without that utility they're pretty worthless IMO, especially compared to last edition.
Dang, you're right - I mean I SUPPOSE there's a case to be made about shooting a Hellblaster+Banner squad, or using it in overwatch to give a -1 to enemy melee hit rolls, but...
Shame. And I can't even hope for an FAQ/Errata fix, as it's an index option. 
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Post by: admironheart
So what are thoughts and uses of a max unit of Warp Spiders?
With the CP boost you now can afford to use Lightning Reflexes for several turns.
you can have a gunline with Walkers/Dcannons/Wraiths all hiding behind Wave Serpents
ofc take Spears, bikes, vypers, hawks or whatever to take objectives.
So how would you use Spiders and what would you tag with them stratagem wise and who are their best and worst targets by the math?
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Post by: WindstormSCR
fe40k wrote:How are we feeling about Swooping Hawks?
At the moment, their ability to Drop/Jump/Drop is gone (since you can't do anything on the first turn, and after 3+, they'll just be counted as destroyed), are they worth considering in any capacity?
Would lists be better server seeking a Dark Eldar replacement (Scourges, ?); or perhaps just not trying to replace them at all?
Although they were always overpriced Guardsman, I loved their concepts, deepstriking, dropping bombs, giving a -1 to-hit (SunRifle), and then leaping back up into the sky to do it all again another round somewhere else.
Shame about the reinforcements after turn 3+ are automatically destroyed if they're not on the table rule...
except they're not counted as destroyed:
"Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the battlefield before the end of the third battle round in order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to the Tactical Reserves rule."
admironheart wrote:So what are thoughts and uses of a max unit of Warp Spiders?
With the CP boost you now can afford to use Lightning Reflexes for several turns.
you can have a gunline with Walkers/Dcannons/Wraiths all hiding behind Wave Serpents
ofc take Spears, bikes, vypers, hawks or whatever to take objectives.
So how would you use Spiders and what would you tag with them stratagem wise and who are their best and worst targets by the math?
the problem with Warp Spiders is they cost about double what guardians do for not a whole lot of benefit.
for around 200 points you're getting 22 Str 6 Ap nil shots that may rend, but often don't. and the same from guardians costs less than half that and a single CP. All that extra points get you are 2 points of strength (which might have merit if all the T5/6 stuff wasn't packing invulns or 3+ armor anyway) and a bit of durability that doesn't actually help all that much.
at the end of the day warp spiders math out to be 18ppm T3 meq, with a gun that means they want to be in range to deny thier own alaitoc trait and then have to rely on thier own internal -1. it just isn't worth it. (This is without even considering the actual real world cost of fielding 2 units of 10!)
tbh one of the easiest things to improve in this codex would be the night spinner and warp spiders by giving them flamer/torrent type effects on the monofil weapons. Why this was removed from the nightspinner I have no clue, and it would go a long way to making warp spiders worth taking for clearing swarms.
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Post by: stratigo
Lithanial wrote:Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?
I think the meta will swing back to serpent spam, maintaining a power squad of reapers with word of the pheonix. It's entirely possible that the eldar army will still look roughly like the LVO's lists did with a few models trimmed off due to point increases as well.
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Post by: mmimzie
stratigo wrote:Lithanial wrote:Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?
I think the meta will swing back to serpent spam, maintaining a power squad of reapers with word of the pheonix. It's entirely possible that the eldar army will still look roughly like the LVO's lists did with a few models trimmed off due to point increases as well.
this is true, but also charging two units of shining spears is also quite possible on turn one, and with few potential screening units shining spears might also become more popular.
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Post by: Eldarsif
I think the meta will swing back to serpent spam, maintaining a power squad of reapers with word of the pheonix.
I have to agree with this. I have been playing Serpents and Reapers(no Ynnari though) before and after the FAQ and they are still working for me as intended. Might try out Spears soon since they haven't seen any changes.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?
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Post by: The only jp
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?
Thematically, wraithseers are awesome and are a perfect fit for a wraith army. I can't comment on how good they are as I've never used one.
Spiritseers are once again thematically right on point, and are great cheap and effective psykers. (slightly less so with the pts increase, but still great).
Hemlocks are also on theme and very very strong.
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Post by: shortymcnostrill
AlmightyWalrus wrote:So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?
I run mine with a wraithcannon along with two lords*, it does ok. Its cc weapon is decent and it allows me to fire an anti-tank shot while advancing. I find its psychic powers barely worth the risk of a perils. A 5++ and 2 wounds sort of makes up for not having T8 in my meta, so I think it's ok for casual play.
Do not make it your warlord tho, and never give it the resurrection gem. That'll just make it a very tempting target for your opponent, and it isn't that hard to kill. I've also never given it a d-cannon for this reason, though I still want to try a d-cannon sniper warlord wraithseer one day...
* shuricannon + sword lords, flamers if I'm in the mood. They're essentially sm dreads with a customisable gun arm and a locked in power fist, you need to get them in cc to be remotely effective. I also repeatedly tried a twin bright lance counterassault role, but I just end up moving it to get in melee.
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Post by: WindstormSCR
Wraithseers are fantastic, I've converted two and have yet to regret doing so. The invuln alone makes them considerably more durable than wraithlords, and they generally see use two ways: either as a running vehicle demolisher with a shuricannon wraithlord, or as an excellent heavy support element.
The use of one as a D-cannon platform cannot be understated, as unlike the regular support weapons it can actually take a decent hit of firepower and keep on giving out, while moving faster than the support weapons, and while supporting other units as well.
A conversion tutorial I put together for a friend on another board: https://imgur.com/gallery/4eTEv
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Post by: Spartacus
 WindstormSCR wrote:Wraithseers are fantastic, I've converted two and have yet to regret doing so. The invuln alone makes them considerably more durable than wraithlords, and they generally see use two ways: either as a running vehicle demolisher with a shuricannon wraithlord, or as an excellent heavy support element.
The use of one as a D-cannon platform cannot be understated, as unlike the regular support weapons it can actually take a decent hit of firepower and keep on giving out, while moving faster than the support weapons, and while supporting other units as well.
A conversion tutorial I put together for a friend on another board: https://imgur.com/gallery/4eTEv
Nice thats a good idea, I have an old Metal WL that I was gonna restore at some stage, might as well do this and make him a Wraithseer.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Just checking, that tutorial seems to end at the mounting of the force shield to the left arm, there's no description of how you made the staff/glaive. Is it supposed to end where it does or am I missing something?
Also, what'd be a good way to kitbash a D-cannon? The other bits are kinda self-explanatory, but the cannon's quite a bit bigger than the other weapons.
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Post by: Dageran
shortymcnostrill wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?
I run mine with a wraithcannon along with two lords*, it does ok. Its cc weapon is decent and it allows me to fire an anti-tank shot while advancing. I find its psychic powers barely worth the risk of a perils. A 5++ and 2 wounds sort of makes up for not having T8 in my meta, so I think it's ok for casual play.
Do not make it your warlord tho, and never give it the resurrection gem. That'll just make it a very tempting target for your opponent, and it isn't that hard to kill. I've also never given it a d-cannon for this reason, though I still want to try a d-cannon sniper warlord wraithseer one day...
* shuricannon + sword lords, flamers if I'm in the mood. They're essentially sm dreads with a customisable gun arm and a locked in power fist, you need to get them in cc to be remotely effective. I also repeatedly tried a twin bright lance counterassault role, but I just end up moving it to get in melee.
I've been trying to make a Wraith-themed list work for awhile now. It's really demoralizing that the FAQ didn't do anything to address the general suckiness of elite armies in 8th. :/
I have tried the Wraith-Sniper, though! It's honestly more effective for the sheer psychological effect. Since the D-Cannon can now fire without LoS, you can just park the Wraithseer behind a tall building and create a 24" bubble your opponent REALLY doesn't want to bring any HQ inside. Both times I've used it, my opponents said they were psyched out by it- but then found that it wasn't really as bad as they'd feared. (Turns out d3 / 3+ / 2+ d6W probably won't one-shot anything really important.)
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Post by: WindstormSCR
 Dageran wrote:shortymcnostrill wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:So a friend of mine is new to 40k and is building a Wraith-themed army, with Wraithblades, Wraithguard and Wraithlords as the theme of his list. I'm aware that outside Wraithguard these units aren't exactly considered the best units ever, but we've got a bunch of people with similarly (un)powerful lists so it ought to be fine. The question is, what goes well in a list themed around Wraith constructs? Is the ForgeWorld Wraithseer still a thing, and is it cripplingly bad or would it have a place in a Wraith construct list?
I run mine with a wraithcannon along with two lords*, it does ok. Its cc weapon is decent and it allows me to fire an anti-tank shot while advancing. I find its psychic powers barely worth the risk of a perils. A 5++ and 2 wounds sort of makes up for not having T8 in my meta, so I think it's ok for casual play.
Do not make it your warlord tho, and never give it the resurrection gem. That'll just make it a very tempting target for your opponent, and it isn't that hard to kill. I've also never given it a d-cannon for this reason, though I still want to try a d-cannon sniper warlord wraithseer one day...
* shuricannon + sword lords, flamers if I'm in the mood. They're essentially sm dreads with a customisable gun arm and a locked in power fist, you need to get them in cc to be remotely effective. I also repeatedly tried a twin bright lance counterassault role, but I just end up moving it to get in melee.
I've been trying to make a Wraith-themed list work for awhile now. It's really demoralizing that the FAQ didn't do anything to address the general suckiness of elite armies in 8th. :/
I have tried the Wraith-Sniper, though! It's honestly more effective for the sheer psychological effect. Since the D-Cannon can now fire without LoS, you can just park the Wraithseer behind a tall building and create a 24" bubble your opponent REALLY doesn't want to bring any HQ inside. Both times I've used it, my opponents said they were psyched out by it- but then found that it wasn't really as bad as they'd feared. (Turns out d3 / 3+ / 2+ d6W probably won't one-shot anything really important.)
I find that the sniper D-cannon, like most things this edition, is more effective vs marines that are very heavily character reliant than any other target type.
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Post by: Dageran
WindstormSCR wrote:
I find that the sniper D-cannon, like most things this edition, is more effective vs marines that are very heavily character reliant than any other target type.
Yeah, I'd definitely believe that. My local meta doesn't have any marines players, though, so I haven't really been able to judge if it's worth it. In my store / area it's generally accepted that model count / horde armies are more competitive.
Because of that, most of my wargear points goes into figuring out how to make a Wraith army usable against tyranids / IG / Nurgle cultist/poxwalker spam, and the D-Cannon doesn't see much play.
(Though, again, against smaller Death-guard HQs and Old-One-Eye the D-Cannon has still been situationally useful. )
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Post by: Weidekuh
I haven't used my Wraithseer since 8th ed. started. I'm reaally annoyed that he has "only" T7, while the Wraithlords are T8. It just... doesn't fit.
Also the Wraithseer is probably the only psycher without the smite power. His powers are not that strong, but smite could really be nice when you throw him against other characters.
I love my Wraithseer and my Wraithlords, I converted two of mine into awesome looking battlestances, but they sadly aren't that hot on the battlefield.
Although in my last game using one Wraithlord he really did some work against an chaos knight in melee. That S9 with the sword can really hurt big things.
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Post by: Lithanial
With all the talk of big Wraith's i'm presently giggling to myself at the thought of crazy Iyanden lists.
469 points left for ranged weaponry and maybe throw in a Hemlock while you are at it.
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Post by: pilchard8
Just updating my eldar tournament list and im 50/50 to keep the Ynari detachment in, with the points increases weve had and the deesptrike rules which dont really affect us, do max squads of reapers still work? Im thinking of putting min squads of 3 with tempest launchers in serpents along with dire avengers for cheap battalions as now we cant take kabalite warriors to fill the ynari detachment.
Think i will keep the big blob of guardians as a turn 2 option. Also playtesting 3 hemlocks as they can move 80' and still alpha units off the board.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Hey guys, I've heard a lot of people say the Wraithknight is pretty poor, but how bad is it? Is it to the point of being garbage or is it pretty good (especially with dem wraithcannons tho) just slightly over costed?
I got the model as a gift and am super psyched to build it, but interested to see if it truely is worthless or if I'm going to stand a chance with it in my army. Obviously I'll add it regardless for rule of cool though.
Cheers 
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Post by: WindstormSCR
 Tiberius501 wrote:Hey guys, I've heard a lot of people say the Wraithknight is pretty poor, but how bad is it? Is it to the point of being garbage or is it pretty good (especially with dem wraithcannons tho) just slightly over costed?
I got the model as a gift and am super psyched to build it, but interested to see if it truely is worthless or if I'm going to stand a chance with it in my army. Obviously I'll add it regardless for rule of cool though.
Cheers
They're absolutely awful for all the reasons that IKs and Landraiders are, except even more costly for less effect.
consider this: for the ~450 a no-shooting glaiveknight would cost you, that is about the same cost as a knight warden that can do everything the wraithknight can, while also packing 3 guns and having a stratagem to improve its survivability, and you don't see wardens used much anywhere.
also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.
those same comparisons? Warden has about the same defenses, never has to give up its invuln, and can improve that invuln. the three fire prisms have 50% more wounds spread across three targets.
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Post by: FarseerReborn
also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.
this.
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Post by: Lithanial
WindstormSCR wrote:also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.
Ok that damage math for the Heavy Wraith Cannons doesn't stack up.... remotely. Even completely unbuffed I make its damage output at 7.78, considering its cost you should be giving it some sort of accuracy buff, either by getting spiritseers in close, using your Autarch or even Guide, then given that its your strongest anti-tank gun you should be using a CP re-roll in there somewhere and you can expect a dual-cannon WK to be popping a heavy vehicle every turn - especially with its Star Cannons on top.
Sure it needs support, but it's not as bad as you are making out.
The key point on a Wraith Knight is that to get full value out of the thing you need to get in close and make use of its melee attacks on top of the shooting. It's not a unit that will prove efficient if you just lurk at the back of the board.
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Post by: DanielFM
WindstormSCR wrote:
Except in close combat. It has to give up its invulnerable in close combat as he gets none.
Your comparison is a bit flawed. A CC Wraithknight would demolish a Warden in close combat.
It's still horribly overcosted. But you don't give it any merit.
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Post by: shortymcnostrill
Lithanial wrote: WindstormSCR wrote:also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.
Ok that damage math for the Heavy Wraith Cannons doesn't stack up.... remotely. Even completely unbuffed I make its damage output at 7.78, considering its cost you should be giving it some sort of accuracy buff, either by getting spiritseers in close, using your Autarch or even Guide, then given that its your strongest anti-tank gun you should be using a CP re-roll in there somewhere and you can expect a dual-cannon WK to be popping a heavy vehicle every turn - especially with its Star Cannons on top.
Sure it needs support, but it's not as bad as you are making out.
The key point on a Wraith Knight is that to get full value out of the thing you need to get in close and make use of its melee attacks on top of the shooting. It's not a unit that will prove efficient if you just lurk at the back of the board.
You're right, you'd definitely buff a wraithknight, but you'd do the same for the prisms (he did say unlinked prisms, which are mediocre). In fact, all the prisms need is 1 cp to do 19(!) damage on average to a T8 3+ target from across the board. This also leaves you free to use Doom and guide to annihilate a second target.
The knight does have T8, but as WindstormSCR pointed out three prisms gets you 50% more wounds instead. However, the prisms do lose a lot of value after the first one dies, and 12 T7 3+ wounds aren't exactly hard to remove. I'd say the knight is better at staying useful while taking fire. I don't know if it is threatening enough to attract a lot of it, it's certainly not the killing machine it was before.
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Post by: Spartacus
Wraithknight is pretty darn tough to get into cover also due to the height, while the Fire prisms find it comparatively easy (and you only have to expose 1 at all if using the stratagem). Pretty crucial consideration when comparing 2 units which dont have invulns.
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Post by: WindstormSCR
Lithanial wrote: WindstormSCR wrote:also to consider: for the price of a dual-cannon WK, you could take three Fire Prisms, which even unlinked will do average of 10 unsaved wounds to any T8 3+ target, compared to the average of 5.10 unsaved for a dual-cannon WK.
Ok that damage math for the Heavy Wraith Cannons doesn't stack up.... remotely. Even completely unbuffed I make its damage output at 7.78, considering its cost you should be giving it some sort of accuracy buff, either by getting spiritseers in close, using your Autarch or even Guide, then given that its your strongest anti-tank gun you should be using a CP re-roll in there somewhere and you can expect a dual-cannon WK to be popping a heavy vehicle every turn - especially with its Star Cannons on top.
Sure it needs support, but it's not as bad as you are making out.
The key point on a Wraith Knight is that to get full value out of the thing you need to get in close and make use of its melee attacks on top of the shooting. It's not a unit that will prove efficient if you just lurk at the back of the board.
You're right, I had a slight error in the math I was using, http://puu.sh/A9ghb/f76447f4b3.jpg is the correct result.
that large standard deviation means the thing will swing wildly, but even at the best possible expected swing upwards, barely gets it over the prisms' average. and that's for unlinked prisms.
the prisms themselves are 10.68 std dev 4.3, so even on the bad end of average are EQUAL to the expected result for a WK. 1 CP gives them a built-in Doom and Guide effect, with no requirement for another 110+ pt HQ and the placement of said HQ.
Yes, all knights require melee to be useful, but the problem is that moving makes thier shooting even less worth it, and they will likely die or degrade severely before making combat against anything that costs enough to be worth hitting.
shortymcnostrill wrote:
You're right, you'd definitely buff a wraithknight, but you'd do the same for the prisms (he did say unlinked prisms, which are mediocre). In fact, all the prisms need is 1 cp to do 19(!) damage on average to a T8 3+ target from across the board. This also leaves you free to use Doom and guide to annihilate a second target.
The knight does have T8, but as WindstormSCR pointed out three prisms gets you 50% more wounds instead. However, the prisms do lose a lot of value after the first one dies, and 12 T7 3+ wounds aren't exactly hard to remove. I'd say the knight is better at staying useful while taking fire. I don't know if it is threatening enough to attract a lot of it, it's certainly not the killing machine it was before.
even losing one prism the remaining two have similar output to the WK at full capacity, and a non-iyanden wraithknight will degrade at that point, making it about equally worse. The key point is that yes T7 3+ is worse than T8, but because they are spread across three targets, it requires more weapons to take them out purely because "extra" damage over 12 is wasted each time.
this ability to punish "overkill" is at the core of why larger numbers of lower wound-count models are better than smaller numbers of models but the same wounds total this edition. its the central pillar of why the elite problem exists, because it allows multi-damage weapons to be efficient.
funnily enough, the WK and things like it are the perfect desirable target for the comparable 3 fire prism replacement, because linking fire forces them all on the same target!
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Post by: Tiberius501
What if you have a Farseer following it around with the relic to gain 12" movement and casting Guide and Fortune on it?
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Post by: WindstormSCR
Tiberius501 wrote:What if you have a Farseer following it around with the relic to gain 12" movement and casting Guide and Fortune on it?
askl yourself what else could be benefitting from that single guide or fortune instead. It's not a terrible option, but again relies on the WK being able to get into melee with something big enough and worth enough to make the costs worthwhile, something that few lists will allow
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Post by: DanielFM
WindstormSCR wrote:[
Yes, all knights require melee to be useful, but the problem is that moving makes thier shooting even less worth it, and they will likely die or degrade severely before making combat against anything that costs enough to be worth hitting.
I don't see how it makes their shooting less worth it. Most Knights get no negatives to hit when moving. The shooty WK can run and shoot at -1, but I don't think it's really worth it (as you won't be able to charge anyway). The fighty WK should be barebones to keep the cost low.
I think that (besides obvious overcosted) the problem for Knights is this paradox: they are mainly good against extra beefy targets; as long as those extra beefy targets aren't desirable, they won't be fielded, thus it will be even less worth it to use Knights. It's a difficult loop to break right now.
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Post by: fresus
DanielFM wrote:I think that (besides obvious overcosted) the problem for Knights is this paradox: they are mainly good against extra beefy targets; as long as those extra beefy targets aren't desirable, they won't be fielded, thus it will be even less worth it to use Knights. It's a difficult loop to break right now.
On top of that, if you ever find yourself against a player who brought a unit that your WK would be good at killing (like a baneblade or a knight), then that player will just focus your WK down before it can do anything.
And if he didn't bring anything big, he can just ignore your WK because it will never make its points back killing small stuff.
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Post by: Tiberius501
So what would be a good fix for the knight? I feel like GW struggle to make big units both good and fun to use. Most seem either too easy to kill with too little effectiveness to begin with, or too powerful and is focused to death or it wins the day.
Anyway, that's more a discussion for another thread, if I were to use the knight, because it's just cool, I'm thinking of giving it the heavy wraithcannons and having it shoot vehicles and then meleeing things that get close or move across the table to melee things after shooting tanks/monsters
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Post by: MrPieChee
Knock 50pts off the base cost and half the cost of the sun cannon and heavy wraith cannons. I don't think that will make it popular, but it would make it worth it enough if you want to use the model...
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Post by: mmimzie
Make it better??? make the knight have something like a 16" move <.< the wraith knight should be the fastest knight. Doesn't make the biggest difference <.< but i mean >.>... it's eldar...
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Post by: WindstormSCR
MrPieChee wrote:
Knock 50pts off the base cost and half the cost of the sun cannon and heavy wraith cannons. I don't think that will make it popular, but it would make it worth it enough if you want to use the model...
pretty much this. Cost for effect is the primary issue.
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Plus it needs a native 5++ at least. For a unit of that cost to not have an invuln save is completely asinine.
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Post by: shortymcnostrill
darkarchonlord wrote:Plus it needs a native 5++ at least. For a unit of that cost to not have an invuln save is completely asinine.
It's even worse than that; the 5++ generator effectively takes up one of two arm slots.
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Post by: Galef
darkarchonlord wrote:Plus it needs a native 5++ at least. For a unit of that cost to not have an invuln save is completely asinine.
Well, 2 variants do have the invul save. Really, what needs to happen is that the base cost of the WK be lowered about 100pts, the shield raised to 100pts, and the Suncannon lowered to about 50ish pts What that would do is make the Wraithcannon variant the cheapest (as it should be) while also making the other 2 variants cheaper than they are now. Wraithcannon ~400pts Suncannon/Shield ~450pts Glaive/Shield ~425 pts -
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Post by: Shadenuat
Alaitoc gives WK around same or better survivability buff as 5++. So Alaitoc+Fortune & 2 Cannons. If you can kill 3.5 average tanks per game you're OK. But d6 damage can be very frustrating.
It's quite hilarious that gun with S16 which is more than most macro weapons has same d6 damage as any other.
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Post by: chinboslice
Hey all. I am kinda new to eldar, but I just bought a bunch of random things and am not really sure what to synergies. If anyone could make any suggestions id appreciate it.
I currently have. I am totally open to suggestions and what I could get that would allow me to synergize better.
Ynnari
Have all three HQ from the triumvirate box
HQ slots
Avatar of kaine
Asurmen
Baharroth
Eldrad
Farseer
Farseer Skyrunner
Illic Nightspear
Karandras
Maugan Ra
Warlock X3
Troop slots
15 dire avengers
20 guardians 2x heavy platforms (coming in the mail)
20 snipers
Elites
Bonesinger
Striking Scorpions X10
Fast Attack
Swooping Hawks X6
Heavy Support
3x Fire Prisms
15x Dark Reapers
Flyers
2x Hemloc
1 Crimson hunter exarch magnetized to also be a hemloc
Transports
2x wave serpants
1 Wraithknight
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Post by: Galef
Shadenuat wrote:It's quite hilarious that gun with S16 which is more than most macro weapons has same d6 damage as any other.
But is doesn't just have D6 damage, it has 2D6 as it has 2 shots that do D6 each. The Wratihcannon WK can do 4D6 damage if all shots hit and wound. That is quite respectable. It is the overall cost that sucks. 3 Prisms are clearly better and can be hidden much easier. If a WK was cheaper than 3 Prims (with no other wargear), than it might actually be worth considering. Really, it shouldn't cost much more than 2 Prims -
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Post by: Shadenuat
Not respectable, not really. You're paying premium and taking out a gigantic model to make 4 somewhat better than average AT shots. It's neither exciting, or effective, or reliable, for a model like that.
I'd prefer instead of dropping in points, it got buffed to a real Lord of War. Make it something like 32 wounds, and give it respectable, less random, high damage guns - maybe even with some mortal wounds on a roll of a 6. Let it be 500-600 pts or whatever. Heck, might even make it T9 instead, although it might break armies without S9 AT.
Just dropping WK's cost would make it banal and average, since people would take 2 WK's and they won't do anything other models can't, or behave differently to a bunch of regular tanks. Cheap WK would attract same firepower as expensive one and die all the same to lascannons as 2 any T8 vehicles so why bother fielding it regardless, if it would still be easier to bring down than 2 serpents or alaitoc flyers.
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Post by: drakerocket
WK would be mediocre if they dropped 200 points, forget 50 or 100. Mortarion and Magnus don't show up at tourneys for a reason; they are solidly good in the current meta, but not extraordinary. In order to be solidly good, a WK must be in their league for points/abilities. A WK can be a bit weaker, due to eldar psychic support, but not substantially so. At present they aren't even anywhere near close to that.
Shadowswords, the two demon primarchs and fire raptors (perhaps not post-nerf, perhaps not post-buff. Maybe the original cost) are what 400-600 models need to look like. Imperial and chaos Knights are in rough shape. Wraith Knights are possibly, without overstatement, the worst unit in the eldar codex.
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Post by: DanielFM
Shadenuat wrote:
I'd prefer instead of dropping in points, it got buffed to a real Lord of War. Make it something like 32 wounds, and give it respectable, less random, high damage guns - maybe even with some mortal wounds on a roll of a 6. Let it be 500-600 pts or whatever. Heck, might even make it T9 instead, although it might break armies without S9 AT.
.
600 points so we can't fit in 2000 points and it doesn't leave the cabinet?
Over 500 and I would never play it.
drakerocket wrote:WK would be mediocre if they dropped 200 points, forget 50 or 100. Mortarion and Magnus don't show up at tourneys for a reason; they are solidly good in the current meta, but not extraordinary. In order to be solidly good, a WK must be in their league for points/abilities. A WK can be a bit weaker, due to eldar psychic support, but not substantially so. At present they aren't even anywhere near close to that.
Shadowswords, the two demon primarchs and fire raptors (perhaps not post-nerf, perhaps not post-buff. Maybe the original cost) are what 400-600 models need to look like. Imperial and chaos Knights are in rough shape. Wraith Knights are possibly, without overstatement, the worst unit in the eldar codex.
A 250-300 WK at its current power would be mediocre? I'm sorry, but what are you smoking? That would be broken.
The WK needs a native invulnerable, improved invulnerable with the shield, improved suncannon (to be either better or cheaper than the Avenger gatling cannon) and a more reliable Heavy Wraithcannon (why do the punny Adeptus Mechanicus AT guns d6 damage with minimum 3d and those monstrosities don't?), and something to make it special over the clunky, lumbering imperial counterparts. 400-500 seems fine if these points come with power to match.
Paying a premium for the buffs is absurd. You already pay points for the buffer. And Imperial Knights will soon get their codex with their own buffs in the form of stratagems (or even more than that). They will be partially fixed. Our WK? It's doomed. The big FAQ came and GW ignored them.
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Post by: mokoshkana
DanielFM wrote:Paying a premium for the buffs is absurd. You already pay points for the buffer. And Imperial Knights will soon get their codex with their own buffs in the form of stratagems (or even more than that). They will be partially fixed. Our WK? It's doomed. The big FAQ came and GW ignored them.
Working as designed. They sold a ridiculous amount of WK's in 7th due to its generous rules. As such, if they were to buff the model, it would not result in large sales because people already have the kits en masse.
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Post by: bullyboy
Besides points cost, I'd also like to see them relax the weapon options. You should be able to take any option the model kit allows, so suncannon/wraithcannon, wraithcannon/shield, etc. Also, expand the shoulder mounts to allow brightlance and AMLs.
But overall, it still comes down to cost. Typically have mine built with suncannon/shield and 2 starcannons. That's 570pts. Ouch.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Do you guys think the cost may come down in the next Chapter Approved? Or are we stuck with an epic model that's useless?
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Post by: DanielFM
Tiberius501 wrote:Do you guys think the cost may come down in the next Chapter Approved? Or are we stuck with an epic model that's useless?
They had two chances to do it (CW codex and Big FAQ) and didn't. It seems like, unless we are super vocal about it, it won't happen.
I feel your pain, my lists also include it for the shake of coolness.
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Post by: Bego
I'm afraid it looks like GW is only 'balancing' units that perform too good instead of also taking care of unused units. Not after first index to codex transfer adjustments that is.
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Post by: bullyboy
If imperial knights get a points drop in codex, we'll have some footing to push for change. If not, might be tough going.
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Post by: mmimzie
 Bego wrote:I'm afraid it looks like GW is only 'balancing' units that perform too good instead of also taking care of unused units. Not after first index to codex transfer adjustments that is.
I think when it comes to buff under used units that seems more the perveiw of chapter approved. While the bi yearly big FAQs are more to nip in the butt stuff they find toxic or just out right too strong.
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Post by: ArtyomTrityak
Can i create Ynnari army with new Battle Brother rules with 3 Detachments: 1: Ynnari from Craftworld, 2: Ynnari from Harlequins, 3: Ynnari from Dark Eldar?
RULES:
BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your
Army Faction.
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Post by: Shadenuat
Yeah but you will need all 3 ynnari characters, 1 in each detachment.
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Post by: WindstormSCR
Shadenuat wrote:Yeah but you will need all 3 ynnari characters, 1 in each detachment.
for reference, this is not because of the battle brothers rule itself, but the change to ynnari in index xenos 1
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Post by: Tiberius501
So, if I were to take this list, would I get obliterated by pretty much anything?
HQ
- Farseer
- Spiritseer
TROOP
- 10x Dire Avengers
- 20x Guardians w/ 2x Shuriken Cannons
- 5x Rangers
ELITES
- 5x Wraithblades w/ axes and shields (go in a serpent)
- 5x Wraithguard w/ Wraithcannons (go in other serpent)
FAST ATTACK
- 6x Windriders w/ Shuriken Cannons
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Wraithlord w/ Shuriken Cannons and sword
TRANSPORT
- Wave Serpent w/ 3x Shuriken Cannons
- Wave Serpent w/ 3x Shuriken Cannons
LORD OF WAR
- Wraithknight w/ heavy Wraithcannons
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Post by: Kdash
You wouldn’t get obliterated by everything, but, you’d also struggle to win most competitive games imo.
Your main turn 1 threat is the Wraithknight, which, while tough, can be dealt with. Everything else is more turn 2 focused. If the Wraithknight dies first turn, then it makes dealing with the Wraithblades/guards so much easier in the following turn.
You can still win games, but, you really have to pick your targets extremely well.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Kdash wrote:You wouldn’t get obliterated by everything, but, you’d also struggle to win most competitive games imo.
Your main turn 1 threat is the Wraithknight, which, while tough, can be dealt with. Everything else is more turn 2 focused. If the Wraithknight dies first turn, then it makes dealing with the Wraithblades/guards so much easier in the following turn.
You can still win games, but, you really have to pick your targets extremely well.
Would the knight be better off with the sword and shield for a bit of extra protection? It'd get rid of my only long range strong shooting though
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Post by: abyrn
Would it help if the knight could deep strike?
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Post by: Shadenuat
I'd stick to Wraithcannons first. Doing damage in 2 phases is better than in 1.
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Post by: mokoshkana
Skathach is the best version. Its weapon options are just plain better.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Shadenuat wrote:I'd stick to Wraithcannons first. Doing damage in 2 phases is better than in 1.
Awesome.
Thanks everyone for your awesome help/suggestions and advice
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Post by: Amishprn86
No, they are still competitive, they are just now finally at the correct cost.
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Post by: Galef
I wonder if that WebWay portal will allow units to deploy outside the opponents deployment zone on turn 1?
If it doesn't, I cannot see it having any real purpose (other than looking AWESOME)
-
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Those wraith heads are beautiful, I want a box of them for conversions.
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Post by: admironheart
Galef wrote:I wonder if that WebWay portal will allow units to deploy outside the opponents deployment zone on turn 1?
If it doesn't, I cannot see it having any real purpose (other than looking AWESOME)
-
Perhaps I read it wrong.....but the leak thread said it had something that permitted units to deploy closer than the 9" minimum normally allowed for reserves. If the portal opens up like 12" away from the opponent....and then additional units deploy within a radius that is closer than 9" it will make Wave Serpents not an Auto choice.
IF this is the case...Wraith blades, the CC units and even Fire Dragons can just open some whoopass now. I would love to dream of dropping a lot of MSU with lowerer power levels but still a big part of the army right into the opponents gunline. Automatically Appended Next Post: Eldar Army would almost be fast moving units deployed on the table like Swooping Hawks, Spiders, Bikes, Tanks. And all the footdar would appear with the Webway Gate.
Basically our whole army could be almost anywhere by turn 2/3
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Post by: Therion
Serpent spam meta shift is already on the way at least in some tournament scenes. A recent one here was won by 5 Serpents and 3 Flyers, while an army with 8 Serpents and one Flyer placed second (Lost overall win due to soft scores). Neither had any Dark Reapers.
Funnily enough I’d think an Eldar flyer spam with couple Serpents would do well against Serpent spam. The Crimson Hunter is points per wound caused very effective against Serpents. The Flyers aren’t as good in Maelstrom missions though.
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Post by: Karhedron
Interesting. Do you know what the cargo was? I am guessing mostly MSU Avengers.
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Post by: Therion
No cargo. Farseer, foot Autarch with the fly relic, 3x5 Rangers and just Serpents everywhere. Tournament missions here are Eternal war and Maelstrom simultaneously (Two missions in one battle) and Serpents just dont die.
You can cram in a combination of 8 to 11 Serpents and Crimson Hunters in 2K pts depending how much of a supporting cast you want.
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Post by: Kdash
Hrm, I’m not surprised that something like Serpent spam could be coming back, however I do think that it’d be counted pretty quick overall. It’ll be tough for hard core gun lines to remove though – especially as I presume they were running Alaitoc?
A couple of my lists feel like they’d be ok, due to having more of a fast moving psychic and/or assault focus to them – whilst having some supporting fire. 13 T7 wounds isn’t much when you’re considering mortal wound spam or things like thunder hammers.
8 will be a pain to deal with for a lot of people though.
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Post by: Bossanovee
Found a site where it might be helpful to take a look at tourney list
https://diceshot.com/category/eldar/
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Post by: Kdash
Not seeing any pure lists there :/ Lots of interesting Craftworld Ynnari + Dark Eldar battalions there though.
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Post by: Lithanial
What's peoples view on the Avatar post FAQ?
Currently pondering a Scorpion Slingshot with Court of the Young King
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Lithanial wrote:What's peoples view on the Avatar post FAQ?
Currently pondering a Scorpion Slingshot with Court of the Young King
What about him changed that might have made him worth fielding?
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Post by: Lithanial
Mostly the wealth of possible CP, making the high cost stratagems associated with him more realistic. That and Court of the Young King being the only reliable way to get a charge off out of deep-strike.
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Saim-Hann gives re-roll fail charges which is better and there's better use of stratagems imo. His issue wasn't really the CP needed it was more his statline and cost. Also the avatar himself cannot deepstrike so...
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
I'm going to run into Necrons tomorrow for thw first time in 8th. I will pick Alaitoc to mitigate tesla, anything else i need to consider? He likes to run lots of scarabs and a ctan nightbringerand a blob of tesla immortals hence the alaitoc trait. Hints and experiences?
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Make sure you completely finish off his units that have reanimation protocol. It's worth loosing some shots to ensure the unit completely dies.
I've personally found Eldar to have the upper-hand against Necrons (as it should be!!), but admittedly I haven't played against them a ton and that might just be my list.
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Post by: Ohris
darkarchonlord wrote:Make sure you completely finish off his units that have reanimation protocol. It's worth loosing some shots to ensure the unit completely dies.
I've personally found Eldar to have the upper-hand against Necrons (as it should be!!), but admittedly I haven't played against them a ton and that might just be my list.
Seconded.
Do not let those units live. Finnish them off so dont spread out too widely so you can consentrate your fire and eliminate the whole unit (the most important thing vs necrons)
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Post by: akaean
So I slapped together a cheap kitbashed Winged Autarch so I can just run him as the plain Index version if I feel the need.
I'm trying to figure out what Relic I want to give him to give him a role as a decent tarpit. Cast protect on him and he is 2+/3++.
My first instinct is to go for the Shard of Anaris to give him a bit of bite. I've always liked the Shard of Anaris, and I used to run it frequently in prior editions. I'm not as thrilled that it no longer super charges vs characters though, and it doesn't stack with Doom very well.
The Shimmerplume is a very nice defensive choice, as he can pair it with Lightning Relfexes to be -2 to hit in melee, which when combined with protect will make him very difficult to take out. He can do the same thing if the enemy targets him with shooting. Right now I'm leaning towards the Shimmerplume as I doubt he would really kill anything with the Shard either, and the extra evasiveness makes killing the warlord deceptively difficult. Does the opponent go for slay the warlord vs a potentially -2 to hit 2+/3++ unit?
Finally I'm looking at the Pheonix Gem. A single get out of jail free card which can protect my Warlord from death. Once he goes down he can suck the life out of a nearby friendly unit, or enemy unit he is engaged in CQC with and he can safely escape on his glorious wings. My only real concern with the Pheonix Gem is making it work from a practical standpoint, as ideally I won't ever use it, and logistically getting it to go off in close combat on enemy phase is not necessarily practical.
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Post by: WindstormSCR
 akaean wrote:So I slapped together a cheap kitbashed Winged Autarch so I can just run him as the plain Index version if I feel the need.
I'm trying to figure out what Relic I want to give him to give him a role as a decent tarpit. Cast protect on him and he is 2+/3++.
My first instinct is to go for the Shard of Anaris to give him a bit of bite. I've always liked the Shard of Anaris, and I used to run it frequently in prior editions. I'm not as thrilled that it no longer super charges vs characters though, and it doesn't stack with Doom very well.
The Shimmerplume is a very nice defensive choice, as he can pair it with Lightning Relfexes to be -2 to hit in melee, which when combined with protect will make him very difficult to take out. He can do the same thing if the enemy targets him with shooting. Right now I'm leaning towards the Shimmerplume as I doubt he would really kill anything with the Shard either, and the extra evasiveness makes killing the warlord deceptively difficult. Does the opponent go for slay the warlord vs a potentially -2 to hit 2+/3++ unit?
Finally I'm looking at the Pheonix Gem. A single get out of jail free card which can protect my Warlord from death. Once he goes down he can suck the life out of a nearby friendly unit, or enemy unit he is engaged in CQC with and he can safely escape on his glorious wings. My only real concern with the Pheonix Gem is making it work from a practical standpoint, as ideally I won't ever use it, and logistically getting it to go off in close combat on enemy phase is not necessarily practical.
run him as a foot autarch with Falchou's Wing. get yourself a star glaive plus 2 weapons of your choice, and wreck face. because he no longer has the jump pack keyword, he can also fit inside transports before flying around.
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Post by: akaean
I could see Gaive + Falchou's Wing being superior to Swooping Hawk Wings + Shard of Anaris, but it still loses out on durability which is what I want on the Autarch.
I ran a winged Autarch last night with just the default kit and Shimmerplume. The Shimmerplume and Lightning Reflexes helped him wall some terminators, and Doom from the Farseer let him actually get a couple of wounds through. I also liked the Fusion Pistol though a bigger gun would have been more helpful.
He isn't terrible with his base kit. Little Ninja Elf gracefully dodging power fists and thunderhammers letting me grab a nearby objective
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Post by: Shadenuat
For winged Autarch, I'd go with Anaris. It may not look like much but due to re-rolls on re-rolls it works on up to T5 more or less, allowing to dispatch various supporting characters. Fusion pistol is also a nice surprise. The only issue is the price, it's just a penny less expensive than the Best Autarch, aka Bike Autarch. The cheapest foot Autarch (Star glaive, Banshee mask, Shimmerplume/Wing, +2 Move/Legendary Fighter/+1W&6+++, Ulthwe/Alaitoc) at least has a benefit of actual lower price - just a bit more expensive than, say, a Spiritseer.
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Post by: Spartacus
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/40k-breaking-harlequin-leaks-point-values-and-stratagems.html
Details of Webway gate leaked. Could be some shenanigans to be had with the strats, but seems like a dangerous gambit.
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Post by: WindstormSCR
I don't see a whole lot of use for it as Craftworlds, the risk is simply too high of losing the contents unless we get equivalent stratagems to the emergency exit ones harlequins are getting.
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Post by: Kdash
WindstormSCR wrote:I don't see a whole lot of use for it as Craftworlds, the risk is simply too high of losing the contents unless we get equivalent stratagems to the emergency exit ones harlequins are getting.
I think it now depends on points cost. If getting 2 in your army is reasonably easy to do, it could be very useful. Just depends on whether or not the points cost is relative to a wave serpent and/or 1-3CP.
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Post by: fresus
Kdash wrote: WindstormSCR wrote:I don't see a whole lot of use for it as Craftworlds, the risk is simply too high of losing the contents unless we get equivalent stratagems to the emergency exit ones harlequins are getting.
I think it now depends on points cost. If getting 2 in your army is reasonably easy to do, it could be very useful. Just depends on whether or not the points cost is relative to a wave serpent and/or 1-3CP.
It's 120pts, as the leaked previously said.
But the gate is a lot worse than normal deepstrike. You have to set it up at deployment, more than 12" from the enemy deployment zone, and then it cannot move. It's very far from the flexibility DS offers. And if your opponent can put a couple units close the the gate, then you can't use it anymore, since you have to be wholly within 3" of the arches, and more than 9" away from any enemy unit.
It looks good, it's great for narrative games as it's quite cinematic to get out of the gate, or could be used as a piece of terrain without the rules.
But as a model in an army, I can't see any decent use.
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Post by: Kdash
fresus wrote:Kdash wrote: WindstormSCR wrote:I don't see a whole lot of use for it as Craftworlds, the risk is simply too high of losing the contents unless we get equivalent stratagems to the emergency exit ones harlequins are getting.
I think it now depends on points cost. If getting 2 in your army is reasonably easy to do, it could be very useful. Just depends on whether or not the points cost is relative to a wave serpent and/or 1-3CP.
It's 120pts, as the leaked previously said.
But the gate is a lot worse than normal deepstrike. You have to set it up at deployment, more than 12" from the enemy deployment zone, and then it cannot move. It's very far from the flexibility DS offers. And if your opponent can put a couple units close the the gate, then you can't use it anymore, since you have to be wholly within 3" of the arches, and more than 9" away from any enemy unit.
It looks good, it's great for narrative games as it's quite cinematic to get out of the gate, or could be used as a piece of terrain without the rules.
But as a model in an army, I can't see any decent use.
Thanks. Thought it had been shown but i'd forgotten!
I agree in normal sense, yes, however the stratagem changes that completely. You still have to be within 3" but can now be within the 9" of an enemy unit. This and the fact that you have another stratagem that allows you to deploy a unit if it gets destroyed (if Craftworlds get access to those stratagems anyway...)
Might not be that great for a Wraithknight though, as a unit getting into combat with the gate will likely prevent the Wraithknight from deploying due to the required space restrictions.
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Post by: Sarigar
The Webway Gate appears pricey at first glance. I'm waiting to see exactly what and how much I can place within 3" as it allows any Craftworld model to exit from it. As we can't use both Webway Strike and Cloudstrike Stratagem, this may offer a flexibility I am not immediately seeing.
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Post by: Dageran
Since the Webway Gate can be taken in a fortification detachment- don't Craftworlds / Drukhari implicitly have access to the webway gate stratagems? (By taking the webway gate as a Harlequin Fortification Detachment)
If that's the case, it may be worth it to try and get some stuff closer to the enemy lines by T2. It's tough to compare the CP cost to just webway striking two units, though.
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Post by: Lord Perversor
Dageran wrote:Since the Webway Gate can be taken in a fortification detachment- don't Craftworlds / Drukhari implicitly have access to the webway gate stratagems? (By taking the webway gate as a Harlequin Fortification Detachment)
If that's the case, it may be worth it to try and get some stuff closer to the enemy lines by T2. It's tough to compare the CP cost to just webway striking two units, though.
a leaked pic of the Webway stats shows it have just the Aeldari Keyword.
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Post by: Amishprn86
It also has "More than 12" from enemy Deployment Zone and any enemy models and more than 3" away from any terrain features or the center of any objective markers."
So.. it is literally impossible to deploy if you are playing by the normal GW rules, b.c your opponent can easily place terrain/objectives in places so you cant deploy it, if you are lucky and place objectives 1st, you can place them so you will have room. Also some deployment types makes it even more hard to place, like Search and Destroy or Vanguard.
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Post by: Sarigar
I'm sure there can be some strategies involved for those who are trying to prevent you from placing the Webway exactly where you want it, but I don't see it being impossible to be placed.
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Post by: Karhedron
Dageran wrote:Since the Webway Gate can be taken in a fortification detachment- don't Craftworlds / Drukhari implicitly have access to the webway gate stratagems? (By taking the webway gate as a Harlequin Fortification Detachment)
If that's the case, it may be worth it to try and get some stuff closer to the enemy lines by T2. It's tough to compare the CP cost to just webway striking two units, though.
Unfortunately not, the leaked pics of the stratagems have the "Harlequin" keyword meaning CWE and DE can only use the basic gate abilities, not the enhanced stratagems. :(
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Post by: Amishprn86
 Sarigar wrote:I'm sure there can be some strategies involved for those who are trying to prevent you from placing the Webway exactly where you want it, but I don't see it being impossible to be placed.
The thing is something like 13-14" long, with 3" away you are talking about a 19-20" gap from terrain and objectives. Place an Objective between 2 terrain pieces.. boon no more WWG. At least tournaments they are preset objectives.
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Karhedron wrote: Dageran wrote:Since the Webway Gate can be taken in a fortification detachment- don't Craftworlds / Drukhari implicitly have access to the webway gate stratagems? (By taking the webway gate as a Harlequin Fortification Detachment)
If that's the case, it may be worth it to try and get some stuff closer to the enemy lines by T2. It's tough to compare the CP cost to just webway striking two units, though.
Unfortunately not, the leaked pics of the stratagems have the "Harlequin" keyword meaning CWE and DE can only use the basic gate abilities, not the enhanced stratagems. :(
Since the stratagems do not have to target a Harlequin unit, as long as you have a harlequin detachment you can use them on whatever.
That being said, I'd expect versions for Craftworlds and Dark Eldar in the box. GW wouldn't put them into the Harlequins Codex...
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Post by: Spartacus
 Amishprn86 wrote: Sarigar wrote:I'm sure there can be some strategies involved for those who are trying to prevent you from placing the Webway exactly where you want it, but I don't see it being impossible to be placed.
The thing is something like 13-14" long, with 3" away you are talking about a 19-20" gap from terrain and objectives. Place an Objective between 2 terrain pieces.. boon no more WWG. At least tournaments they are preset objectives.
Turn it sideways and you only need about 7 inches of space, or about 4/5 inches of space from the board edge. I don't think it will be impossible to place on any reasonable looking board. If you're willing to play an opponent who would try and do this, and even if you're right, you're probably at a competitive event, meaning you won't be taking this thing anyway. It won't be a problem.
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Post by: fresus
darkarchonlord wrote:Since the stratagems do not have to target a Harlequin unit, as long as you have a harlequin detachment you can use them on whatever.
That being said, I'd expect versions for Craftworlds and Dark Eldar in the box. GW wouldn't put them into the Harlequins Codex...
That's also my guess.
We'll probably get the preview for the gate tomorrow or Friday. They might mention it.
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Post by: Porphyrius
Can anyone give some advice regarding how to build a Harlequins and Craftworld army? I understand the basics of how Harlequins work and what should be included for them, but I'm unsure about what from the Craftworlds codex best complements them. Given that Harlequins have issues dealing with hordes (both attacking them and weathering the weight of their fire), what CWE units should I be considering? Not looking to be hyper-competitive, though my local meta definitely isn't what I would call overly casual.
Thanks for any help!
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Post by: WindstormSCR
 Porphyrius wrote:Can anyone give some advice regarding how to build a Harlequins and Craftworld army? I understand the basics of how Harlequins work and what should be included for them, but I'm unsure about what from the Craftworlds codex best complements them. Given that Harlequins have issues dealing with hordes (both attacking them and weathering the weight of their fire), what CWE units should I be considering? Not looking to be hyper-competitive, though my local meta definitely isn't what I would call overly casual.
Thanks for any help!
if you want to be fluffy, grab eldrad and a unit of guardians in a wave serpent, back it up with some heavy support or a flyer you like the look of
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Post by: DanielFM
Read the leaked rules for the new Imperial Knight special character. Read the 450 points cost. Compare to the 453 points sword and shield Wraithknight. Cry yourself to sleep.
Seriously GW, that's beyond awful. There is now way you can justify that. I'm pretty sure Questor Imperialis codex will get as much synergy or more as the WK has access too, so that's not an excuse. Having the WK overpowered the previous edition is certainly not an excuse.
I get new reasons each morning to throw my model through the window lol
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Post by: bullyboy
I actually think the knight codex bodes well for Craftworld. Possibility of reducing cost of WK in next Chapter Approved.
As for mixing Harlies and craftworld, Harlies don't hold objectives well so a few Ranger sqds help. Adding flyers, especially hemlock, also good.
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Post by: Lord Perversor
 bullyboy wrote:I actually think the knight codex bodes well for Craftworld. Possibility of reducing cost of WK in next Chapter Approved.
As for mixing Harlies and craftworld, Harlies don't hold objectives well so a few Ranger sqds help. Adding flyers, especially hemlock, also good.
Yep with the new LD shenanigans of harlies you can make serious serious damage if you can properly combo some units (Hemlocks with terrify are the prime option)
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Post by: mokoshkana
 Lord Perversor wrote: bullyboy wrote:I actually think the knight codex bodes well for Craftworld. Possibility of reducing cost of WK in next Chapter Approved.
As for mixing Harlies and craftworld, Harlies don't hold objectives well so a few Ranger sqds help. Adding flyers, especially hemlock, also good.
Yep with the new LD shenanigans of harlies you can make serious serious damage if you can properly combo some units (Hemlocks with terrify are the prime option)
Terrify is almost never worth it. It could potentially make one more unit run, but at that point, you're better off casting smite instead and averaging 2 mortal wounds.
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Post by: Shadenuat
A lot of powers when it comes to real game with ranges and positioning end up worse than Smite honestly. Sure you can remove that cover save and your bunch of guardians can kill an extra model or two.
Or you can cast smite on 5 instead and remove extra model or two. Or six if you're super lucky.
Most of runes of Battle feel only good when invested into a big expensive unit, and better throw some extra into there. I don't even use Guide/Fortune nowadays tbh.
Doom, Executioner, and smite, smite, smite from everyone else.
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Post by: Gangrel767
Shadenuat wrote:A lot of powers when it comes to real game with ranges and positioning end up worse than Smite honestly. Sure you can remove that cover save and your bunch of guardians can kill an extra model or two.
Or you can cast smite on 5 instead and remove extra model or two. Or six if you're super lucky.
Assuming they're the closest target. If they're not then you're going to have to smite a different target then the one you're trying to destroy.
Everything is situational.
I have used Horrify to great effect and often times rarely will cast smite as a whole because the other powers are so much better for the situation.
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Post by: Kharneth
Anyone wanna tell me about Eldar in 8th? I've never played them and only fought against them once or twice in like 6th or 7th.
Do they have good diversity in builds? How are they fairing in this edition? Would a mechanized list be a good idea? What about the starter kit, no guardians? What should be done with the Farseer, 5 Wraithguard, Wraithlord, and War Walker?
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Post by: bullyboy
With all that I'm reading/hearing about Imperial Knights, Wraithknights better get a serious points drop in Chapter Approved this year.
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
bullyboy wrote:With all that I'm reading/hearing about Imperial Knights, Wraithknights better get a serious points drop in Chapter Approved this year.
Codex Aeldari Knights, with the quadruped ones
One might dream...
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Post by: djones520
Played in a 14 man 1850 small event today, a wide spread of lists. Went up against Nids, Ravenguard, and then Orks at the top table. Nids and Orks were both really tough games. Ended up tabling my opponents in games 2 and 3. List was as follows. Pure Craftworld.
Alaitoc BN
Autarch w/ Shiftshroud, Reaper Launcher, Mark of Hunter
Farseer w/ Doom and Guide
Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Hemlock
Dark Reapers x5
Dark Reapers x4
Dark Reapers x4
Alaitoc BN
Warlock w/ Sword
Warlock w/ Spear
Dire Avengers x5
Dire Avengers x5
Rangers x5
Warwalkers x3 w/ Scatter Lasers
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
I plan on taking this, plus 2 Vypers and 1 more Reaper, for 2k to ATC and another GT shortly there after.
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Post by: DanielFM
 djones520 wrote:Played in a 14 man 1850 small event today, a wide spread of lists. Went up against Nids, Ravenguard, and then Orks at the top table. Nids and Orks were both really tough games. Ended up tabling my opponents in games 2 and 3. List was as follows. Pure Craftworld.
Alaitoc BN
Autarch w/ Shiftshroud, Reaper Launcher, Mark of Hunter
Farseer w/ Doom and Guide
Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Hemlock
Dark Reapers x5
Dark Reapers x4
Dark Reapers x4
Alaitoc BN
Warlock w/ Sword
Warlock w/ Spear
Dire Avengers x5
Dire Avengers x5
Rangers x5
Warwalkers x3 w/ Scatter Lasers
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
I plan on taking this, plus 2 Vypers and 1 more Reaper, for 2k to ATC and another GT shortly there after.
Why the Shriftshroud? Isn't it useless besides the -1 to hit against shooting now you can't deepstrike first turn outside of your deployment zone?
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
Scatter lasers are soooo 7th ed, shuriken cannons are better these days (as warwalkers get battle focus and serpents get vectored enginges)
What are the powers on those warlocks? Maybe you can find the points to up them to spiritseers for the option of full smite and extra wounds.
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Post by: djones520
DanielFM wrote: djones520 wrote:Played in a 14 man 1850 small event today, a wide spread of lists. Went up against Nids, Ravenguard, and then Orks at the top table. Nids and Orks were both really tough games. Ended up tabling my opponents in games 2 and 3. List was as follows. Pure Craftworld.
Alaitoc BN
Autarch w/ Shiftshroud, Reaper Launcher, Mark of Hunter
Farseer w/ Doom and Guide
Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Rangers x5
Hemlock
Dark Reapers x5
Dark Reapers x4
Dark Reapers x4
Alaitoc BN
Warlock w/ Sword
Warlock w/ Spear
Dire Avengers x5
Dire Avengers x5
Rangers x5
Warwalkers x3 w/ Scatter Lasers
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
I plan on taking this, plus 2 Vypers and 1 more Reaper, for 2k to ATC and another GT shortly there after.
Why the Shriftshroud? Isn't it useless besides the -1 to hit against shooting now you can't deepstrike first turn outside of your deployment zone?
Snipers are a pretty hefty thing in the Meta that I've experienced, so thats why. I haven't found a ton of use for the other relics, and his own ability to snipe characters with a reaper launcher makes him a big target. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cpt. Icanus wrote:Scatter lasers are soooo 7th ed, shuriken cannons are better these days (as warwalkers get battle focus and serpents get vectored enginges)
What are the powers on those warlocks? Maybe you can find the points to up them to spiritseers for the option of full smite and extra wounds.
Scatter lasers still work just fine.
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Post by: Spartacus
Yeah funny you mention scatter lasers; After struggling to mow through a tide of 4 pt Guardsmen before they swarmed my objective in a battle yesterday, I found myself mathhammering some shooting for modestly priced non-infantry choices vs GeQ.
Funnily enough, after 5 rounds of shooting Scatbikes are about the only thing that kill significantly more than their own points worth of Guardsmen. They aren't as durable vs other similar options like Warwalkers, but on the other hand they're a great target for things like Guide, and conceal, which are often wasted on other units.
Might mix in a squad next time and see what happens.
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Scatterlasers need to be rapid fire 3 or something like that for them to actually have a place. Maybe even rapid fire 4 and drop the strength profile. We could really use a horde clearer and the scatter laser is begging to be it.
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Post by: Bharring
Yeah, CWE lacks high-volume low-S weapons. We really just have Lasblasters on Hawks, and Shuriken spam. We're so strong that it's normally not noticed, but it does seem odd.
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Post by: Cpt. Icanus
I think one of the better anti horde options we have is clever placement of hemlocks to cover multiple units with -2 ld, it adds up quickly if there's no morale shenanigans.
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Post by: Spartacus
Cpt. Icanus wrote:I think one of the better anti horde options we have is clever placement of hemlocks to cover multiple units with -2 ld, it adds up quickly if there's no morale shenanigans.
There usually are morale shenanigans though thats the issue. Even Guard with their nerfed Commisars still have Ld 9 and 10 man units + a choice of a re-roll, you're realistically only getting a small shot at 'morale damage' per squad even if you spread the casualties out nicely. Hemlocks are always a strong take anyway though so might as well try.
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Post by: Kharneth
What are some good melee choices for Eldar? I'd like some melee units to counter enemy melee units. There seems to be Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Wraithblades, and Shining Spears. Did I miss anything? Which of these choices are good and/or how are their roles distinct?
Thanks!
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Post by: tneva82
djones520 wrote:Played in a 14 man 1850 small event today, a wide spread of lists. Went up against Nids, Ravenguard, and then Orks at the top table. Nids and Orks were both really tough games. Ended up tabling my opponents in games 2 and 3. List was as follows. Pure Craftworld.
What was in the ork army if that was tough one? Standard boyz swarm should be getting blown apart steadily without actually doing much short of lucky charges. Dark reapers vaporize stuff, wave serpents are virtually indestructible against shooting and pretty darn tough against cc if he catch. Alaitoc makes orks main shooter just as likely hurt itself as hit enemy. Albeit you are bit thin on anti-infantry but then again not like alaitoc I faced sometime ago had piles of that either and had less reapers and basically was deleting unit or two per turn while I had trouble killing anything due to -1 to hit and them playing hide&seek. Automatically Appended Next Post: Spartacus wrote:Cpt. Icanus wrote:I think one of the better anti horde options we have is clever placement of hemlocks to cover multiple units with -2 ld, it adds up quickly if there's no morale shenanigans.
There usually are morale shenanigans though thats the issue. Even Guard with their nerfed Commisars still have Ld 9 and 10 man units + a choice of a re-roll, you're realistically only getting a small shot at 'morale damage' per squad even if you spread the casualties out nicely. Hemlocks are always a strong take anyway though so might as well try.
One "anti horde" trick is actually movement blocker. If you can aim it right those fliers make annoying roadblock for horde army to go through. Orks in particular hate that as effectively invulnerable big base that you have to move around. With often orks left and right the unit blocked generally tend to have to basically stand back. If you can move away from the other side and concentrate on the other side that's basically turn another turn orks barely advance.
Been on target of that. Not fun!
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Post by: darkarchonlord
Cpt. Icanus wrote:I think one of the better anti horde options we have is clever placement of hemlocks to cover multiple units with -2 ld, it adds up quickly if there's no morale shenanigans.
Morale is stricly better againt tough models since you're removing models not wounds. Yes, weak models tend to have lower leadership, but the armies that have those almost ALWAYS have shenanigans (orcs, nids).
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Post by: Karhedron
 Kharneth wrote:Anyone wanna tell me about Eldar in 8th? I've never played them and only fought against them once or twice in like 6th or 7th.
Do they have good diversity in builds? How are they fairing in this edition? Would a mechanized list be a good idea? What about the starter kit, no guardians? What should be done with the Farseer, 5 Wraithguard, Wraithlord, and War Walker?
Yes, Eldar have a good diversity of builds. There are a lot of units in the Codex which helps although a fair few of them are pretty poor.
Mechanised Eldar are very strong with Wave Serpents being one of the best transports in the game and the Fire Prism is lethal, particularly when run in pairs with the "Linked Fire" stratagem.
Guardians are an odd unit. They are fragile and have very short-ranged firepower. You can add heavy weapons to them but this does not synergise well with their basic guns. If people take them, it is usually to run a single big squad of 20 with 2 shurican cannons and deploy them close to an enemy unit using the "Webway Assault" stratagem. Dire Avengers are decent as they are basically guardians with better armour, longer ranged guns and some useful abilities. Rangers are pretty good, particularly when used in an Alaitoc detachment.
Eldar rely heavily on their stratagems so make sure you take at least 1 Battalion (hence 3 Troop units)for the 5 CPs it generates.
Other units that are good are Dark Reapers, Wraithguard, Shining Spears, Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters.
Wraithlords and War Walkers are decent if used correctly.
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Post by: Kharneth
Karhedron wrote: Kharneth wrote:Anyone wanna tell me about Eldar in 8th? I've never played them and only fought against them once or twice in like 6th or 7th.
Do they have good diversity in builds? How are they fairing in this edition? Would a mechanized list be a good idea? What about the starter kit, no guardians? What should be done with the Farseer, 5 Wraithguard, Wraithlord, and War Walker?
Yes, Eldar have a good diversity of builds. There are a lot of units in the Codex which helps although a fair few of them are pretty poor.
Mechanised Eldar are very strong with Wave Serpents being one of the best transports in the game and the Fire Prism is lethal, particularly when run in pairs with the "Linked Fire" stratagem.
Guardians are an odd unit. They are fragile and have very short-ranged firepower. You can add heavy weapons to them but this does not synergise well with their basic guns. If people take them, it is usually to run a single big squad of 20 with 2 shurican cannons and deploy them close to an enemy unit using the "Webway Assault" stratagem. Dire Avengers are decent as they are basically guardians with better armour, longer ranged guns and some useful abilities. Rangers are pretty good, particularly when used in an Alaitoc detachment.
Eldar rely heavily on their stratagems so make sure you take at least 1 Battalion (hence 3 Troop units)for the 5 CPs it generates.
Other units that are good are Dark Reapers, Wraithguard, Shining Spears, Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters.
Wraithlords and War Walkers are decent if used correctly.
Can you elaborate on your final statement regarding Wraithlords and War Walkers?
I have bought the starter kit (Wraithlord, War Walker, 5 Wraithguard, Farseer) and 5 Dire Avengers and a Wave Serpent. How are Wraithlords and War Walkers used correctly? I can see myself using them in one of two ways each.
Regarding Wraithguard, I've heard there are two ways to use them. The first by giving them Wraithcannons and deep striking them within 9" of a vehicle, now on turn 2. Or give them D-Scythes and put them in a Wave Serpent because you can advance and still auto hit. Why is putting them in a Wave Serpent with Wraithcannons not as good as D-Scythes? With 8" range, you'd need to roll a 4 to advance just to be at the same relative shooting distance as the wraithcannon. I'm not sure what the advantage is.
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Post by: Bharring
It's just that, if you want to use Scytheguard, advancing offsets the lower range. Whereas, if you WWP Scytheguard, they cannot shoot that turn (cannot be in range).
WraithCannon Wraithguard can function out of a Serpent, too. But you have fewer attacks that are each bigger, vs more attacks that autohit but only do D1.
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Post by: Kharneth
Bharring wrote:It's just that, if you want to use Scytheguard, advancing offsets the lower range. Whereas, if you WWP Scytheguard, they cannot shoot that turn (cannot be in range).
WraithCannon Wraithguard can function out of a Serpent, too. But you have fewer attacks that are each bigger, vs more attacks that autohit but only do D1.
I'm wondering whether I should put my wraithguard in a serpent or in the webway with their cannons. Additionally, I have 10 (working on 20) guardians who I think I'd like to put in the webway. Not sure if I should spend the 3 CP to put them both in reserves or if I should put the wraithguard in the serpent and spend only the 1 CP. Perhaps the guardians and wraithguard would be good together as they're both 12" range.
Are we still able to move units who arrive via reserves with stratagems (fire and fade)? I vaguely recall that only psychic powers that move units are not allowed to target units that arrived from reserves (warptime, quicken, etc), but perhaps I'm incorrect.
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Post by: Bharring
You *will* find other uses for the Serpent in your game, aside from just transporting the WG. But the Serpent is less flexible/reliable delivery than WWP. It's a tradeoff.
Wraithguard want to hit big many-W models - otherwise, they're a waste. Guardians do best against things that tend to be 1W models - as they do 1W per failed save. They complement eachother well, but you're looking for very different targets. Also, the things you want to keep your Guardians away from (things with lots of attacks/shots) tend to be different from the things you wnat to keep your Wraithguard away from (things with fewer but much stronger attacks/shots).
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Post by: Kharneth
Bharring wrote:You *will* find other uses for the Serpent in your game, aside from just transporting the WG. But the Serpent is less flexible/reliable delivery than WWP. It's a tradeoff.
Wraithguard want to hit big many-W models - otherwise, they're a waste. Guardians do best against things that tend to be 1W models - as they do 1W per failed save. They complement eachother well, but you're looking for very different targets. Also, the things you want to keep your Guardians away from (things with lots of attacks/shots) tend to be different from the things you wnat to keep your Wraithguard away from (things with fewer but much stronger attacks/shots).
I love my Serpent. I think either Guardians or Wraithguard will do fine inside it.
So I have 10 Guardians, 5 Dire Avengers, and 5 Wraithguard, but only 1 Wave Serpent. The Dire Avengers don't need a transport, but could certainly take advantage of one. The guardians can take a transport or I can take the heavy weapon platform (unless that can embark, too?). I'd like to get another 10 Guardians and deep strike them through the Webway, but until that happens they are a valid option for the Serpent. I also have the Wraithguard who can embark on the Serpent or deep strike through the webway. Of course, I can always deep strike them both with the flexibility to put them near each other or on opposite flanks. The Serpent is part of the list regardless of who it transports. But who would gain the most out of deep striking and who would gain the most from the Wave Serpent? Are either unit worth 1 CP to deep strike and/or is it worth 3 CP to deep strike them both?
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Post by: shortymcnostrill
Personally I'd transport the wraithguard. You want them to hit high value targets. The serpent makes sure they get in range, while your opponent could deny you a deep strike position within 12" of their target. 20 guardians are more versatile in what they can target, so I'd rather deep strike them.
Until you get more guardians I'd recommend you try it the other way around; put the guardians in the serpent and see how deep striking the wraithguard works out for you (it could be really effective).
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Post by: Karhedron
Kharneth wrote:
Can you elaborate on your final statement regarding Wraithlords and War Walkers?
I find a lot depends on loadout. Wraithlords have decent shooting but also good melee. If you only use them as a static firing platform, you will not get the best out of them. For this reason, I like my Wraithlords to be mobile. My favourite build for them is 2 Shurican Cannons and a Glaive (you can either take catapults or flamers on the fists depending on points). This way they can Advance each turn and still fire which makes them quite mobile (they are fast enough to form a second way, just behind your Wave Serpents). The Glaive allows them to hit pretty hard in close combat.
With War walkers, the opposite is true. I find it is best to double up on one kind of heavy weapon (probably Brightlances for dedicated anti-tank), run them in a squadron and keep a Farseer nearby to cast Guide on them (they are one of the best units in the game for this Psychic power). I normally use their ability to come on from Reserves to dodge any Turn 1 shooting from your enemy and then appear in a good firing position where they can hunker down for the rest of the game and bring down the fire.
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Post by: Rogerio134134
Hey guys new to 8th and back in the hobby after 5 years out, decided to do a Biel tan splinter host and so far have acquired about enough to field 1k points I just need to buy 6 rangers and another war walker ton complete this list.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [58 PL, 1000pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Craftworld Attribute: Biel-Tan: Swordwind
+ HQ +
Farseer [6 PL, 110pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade
+ Troops +
Dire Avengers [6 PL, 136pts]
. 10x Dire Avenger: 10x Avenger Shuriken Catapult
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults
Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 95pts]: 10x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
Rangers [6 PL, 72pts]: 6x Ranger
+ Elites +
Wraithblades [10 PL, 175pts]: Ghostswords, 5x Wraithblade
+ Heavy Support +
War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
Wraithlord [8 PL, 123pts]: Bright Lance, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult
+ Dedicated Transport +
Wave Serpent [9 PL, 149pts]: Spirit Stones, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Vectored Engines
++ Total: [58 PL, 1000pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe
The idea is for the rangers to sit back and pop shots at characters and hold back deep objective while the guardians and avengers push forward with the wraith lord, allowing the wave serpent to swoop in and get the wraith blades into combat. The war walkers will use their ability to deploy on a flank to come in late and support the advance.
I'm not sure how many games is even get in at 1k points bit it's just a starting list for me really with the models I have so far, any thoughts??
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Post by: shortymcnostrill
You're 1 hq short for a battalion I'm afraid.
Disclaimer: I'm a casual player
I think you're a bit light on anti-tank; I'd recommend trying to free up 60 points somewhere to put a second lance on the lord and to upgrade the walkers to lances too. If it were me I'd free up those points by dropping a ranger, 2-3 avengers and the upgrades on the serpent. At 1k your opponent should be hard-pressed to destroy even a bare serpent.
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Post by: Frowny
Yes. Also, consider switching the Lance onto a war Walker and putting the cannons on the wraith lord. He wants to be moved up anyway.
Consider a spiritseer if you can afford him. Gets you a battalion and there are many useful powers.
I think almost anything 10 dire avengers can do, 5 can do nearly as well. Or 2x5. Saves you some points for the above suggestions.
Have you put picked a craft world? At this point in your list building I'd give them a look to see of it informs your list building
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Post by: Rogerio134134
Thanks for the advice guys yeah I didn't realise you needed 2 hq for a battalion! I'm used to 2 troops and a hq being the starting point. I know dire avengers aren't exactly op but they are my favourite aspect warriors so having 10 is a stylistic choice if anything.
Quick question I haven't actually played 8th yet but can only troops claim objectives?? The last time I played was 6th Ed
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Post by: roflmajog
Objectives can be claimed by any model that isn't a flier, the person with the most models in range controls it. However if any of the models are troops the team with troops on it claims it. If both players have troops on the objective it reverts back to most models.
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Post by: Weidekuh
I have lots of Dire Avengers. Love them. I would recommend 2x5 instead of 10 and give to all your exarchs two Avenger Shuriken Catapults.
If you are a casual player, Asurmen works well with a few Dire Avengers units around him. They all get a 4++ and he is deceptively strong in melee. Just be sure to have a Doom Farseer nearby, shuriken and Asurmens sword benefit a lot from Doom.
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Post by: Rogerio134134
Ah ok, what's with the 5 man squads now? Everyone seems to take 5 man squads in every army like marines etc. 5 men for me seems pitiful as you lose one or two they lose allot of effectiveness.
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Post by: roflmajog
You get 2 captains for free instead of 1 if you do 2x5. For the avengers this is an extra wound and it gives a 4++ to 2 extra wounds. It also allows you to get the firepower of an extra avenger for only 4 points. Of course if you decide to take a shimmershield (I don't recommend this) it is more effective on squads of 10.
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Post by: kingheff
Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?
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Post by: roflmajog
kingheff wrote:Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?
The falcon is a usable tank in this edition but depending on the use generally a serpent or prism would be better. BTW pulse laser is also available on crimson hunters.
From what you have said it sounds like you are planning on running 2x Maugan Ra which isn't possible as he is a named character. You could run an index autarch with reaper launcher though, he still gives rerolls of 1 and can have the character sniping warlord trait.
If you are planning on running just 1 HQ with them and having them close together a serpent could be better as you only need 1 to transport all the models.
If you are looking for flexibility you can't really beat the fire prism, and if you run 2 and link them you can put down a vehicle per turn on average.
FWIW I rarely find my reapers need to run away from something faster than their standard movement and if you put them in a falcon to run them away you not only lose the reapers shots that turn but you compromise the shooting of the falcon too.
If you want them in a transport at the start I would go for a serpent with 3 shuriken cannons so it can move and shoot without penalty.
Mathhammer Vs T7 3+ vehicles:
Falcon with BL: 3.776 damage
Falcon with AML: 3.259 damage
Serpent with Twin BL: 3.108 damage
Serpent with twin AML: 2.074 damage
Prism (focussed): 3.556 damage
Prism (focussed + linked): 6.32 damage
None of these include damage from the chin guns (assumed to be the same for all).
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Post by: Spartacus
kingheff wrote:Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?
For a tiny difference in points youre getting a large increase in either firepower or durability/capacity if you take the Fire Prism/Wave Serpent.
Its not a 'poor choice' by the current standards of the game, just falls a little bit short of the other tank options in the codex, so you don't see it in optimised lists for competitive games.
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Post by: Kharneth
Why is 2x5 Dire Avengers better than 1x10?
With two units you'll have 12 wounds and 12 guns vs the other units' 11 wounds and 11 guns, but the 10-man unit is much easier to buff. Do people not use any spells on dire avengers? I have 1 exarch and 4 dire avengers and my buddy just gave me 5 more but idk if I should turn one of them into an exarch or keep them as a unit of 10.
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Post by: roflmajog
Kharneth wrote:Why is 2x5 Dire Avengers better than 1x10?
With two units you'll have 12 wounds and 12 guns vs the other units' 11 wounds and 11 guns, but the 10-man unit is much easier to buff. Do people not use any spells on dire avengers? I have 1 exarch and 4 dire avengers and my buddy just gave me 5 more but idk if I should turn one of them into an exarch or keep them as a unit of 10.
I find there are generally better units to buff than avengers, if I am going to use a spell with them most of the time it would be doom and that targets the enemy squad anyway.
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Post by: Weidekuh
Exactly. Their best buff is Doom. Any other buff there is always a better unit to cast it on. That 4++, 2w exarch can make a huge survivability difference. And you have more guns.
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Post by: kingheff
 roflmajog wrote:kingheff wrote:Hi everyone, I was just wondering if the falcon was still regarded as a poor tank and if so why?
To me the pulse laser is a great weapon and you can only get it on the falcon, I'm planning to run a pair of falcons with a missile launcher and the two catapults for 155 pts each with a pair of 5 man Dark reapers and Maugan Ra as my back line. The small transport capacity should work great if the Reapers get threatened and need to get out of dodge or need a longer range redeployment. I run with the missile launchers so they have more flexibility than a bright lance plus that way they both have 48 inch range so that matches up well.
I know the serpent is more durable and the fire prism can do the higher strength shot option but a serpent with twin missile launchers is 162 pts, 152 with bright lances but I prefer the flexibility of the missile launchers, whilst a fire prism is 160 pts.
I guess part of this comes down to the mathammer of the pulse laser vs the bright lance, has anyone done this?
The falcon is a usable tank in this edition but depending on the use generally a serpent or prism would be better. BTW pulse laser is also available on crimson hunters.
From what you have said it sounds like you are planning on running 2x Maugan Ra which isn't possible as he is a named character. You could run an index autarch with reaper launcher though, he still gives rerolls of 1 and can have the character sniping warlord trait.
If you are planning on running just 1 HQ with them and having them close together a serpent could be better as you only need 1 to transport all the models.
If you are looking for flexibility you can't really beat the fire prism, and if you run 2 and link them you can put down a vehicle per turn on average.
FWIW I rarely find my reapers need to run away from something faster than their standard movement and if you put them in a falcon to run them away you not only lose the reapers shots that turn but you compromise the shooting of the falcon too.
If you want them in a transport at the start I would go for a serpent with 3 shuriken cannons so it can move and shoot without penalty.
Mathhammer Vs T7 3+ vehicles:
Falcon with BL: 3.776 damage
Falcon with AML: 3.259 damage
Serpent with Twin BL: 3.108 damage
Serpent with twin AML: 2.074 damage
Prism (focussed): 3.556 damage
Prism (focussed + linked): 6.32 damage
None of these include damage from the chin guns (assumed to be the same for all).
Thanks for the mathhammer
I was referring to two units of reapers supported by a single Maugan Ra, sorry if that wasn't clear, obviously it depends on terrain but I'd try to keep both units in range of his buff. I prefer to keep to the codex since I'm not a super competitive player, the sniping autach with missiles is a sweet option though. I do use a triple cannon serpent but that transports my wraithblades. As an assault transport the serpent has it beaten all ends up.
The ability to transport is more of an emergency thing so the serpent's extra capacity wouldn't be too important, the reapers would probably have taken a few losses before I'd want to move them!
Looks like the maths backs up the damage output of the pulse laser, the difference between a pulse laser and lance compared to twin lances is pretty decent. Plus the two shot flat three damage is nice for things like hive guard and primaris.
I just thought it was strange how often I've seen the falcon almost dismissed out of hand when the pulse laser is such a nice weapon. It's not got the specialisation of the other two but its flexibility is nice.
I assume the Prism (non-linked) is for a stationary, two shot prism?
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Post by: Marius Xerxes
kingheff wrote:strange how often I've seen the falcon almost dismissed out of hand when the pulse laser is such a nice weapon.
Its because the Pulse Laser, as mentioned, also comes on the Crimson Hunter/Hunter Exarch. Its a better platform for it, especially the CHE.
A CHE with Pulse Laser and Bright Lances does 6.889 to T7 3+.
A CHE with Pulse Laser and Starcannons does 4.784 to T7 3+.
That's including the CHE getting to re-rolls 1's to hit natively while also suffering the -1 to hit for always moving.
If what they shoot at also has the FLY keyword, then they are re-rolling all rolls to wound as well which is not included.
This, in-addition to natively having a -1 to be hit in return.
Its just an all around better platform.
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Post by: kingheff
 Marius Xerxes wrote:kingheff wrote:strange how often I've seen the falcon almost dismissed out of hand when the pulse laser is such a nice weapon.
Its because the Pulse Laser, as mentioned, also comes on the Crimson Hunter/Hunter Exarch. Its a better platform for it, especially the CHE.
A CHE with Pulse Laser and Bright Lances does 6.889 to T7 3+.
A CHE with Pulse Laser and Starcannons does 4.784 to T7 3+.
That's including the CHE getting to re-rolls 1's to hit natively while also suffering the -1 to hit for always moving.
If what they shoot at also has the FLY keyword, then they are re-rolling all rolls to wound as well which is not included.
This, in-addition to natively having a -1 to be hit in return.
Its just an all around better platform.
The hunters are excellent tank killers, better than any of the eldar tanks, but they're not tanks or transports which is the comparison I was trying to figure out. I'm not trying to imply that the falcon is the best unit the craftworlds can field but they seem a very solid and maybe underrated unit to me at least.
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Post by: Kharneth
I have heard two pieces of advice that seem contrary and was hoping for an explanation.
Who should baby sit your unit (or two) of Dark Reapers?
I've heard people like to use an Autarch with a reaper launcher to provide rerolling 1s to hit and also for an additional launcher (that may also be able to target characters). I have additionally heard that you should use Guide on your Dark Reapers, but if this is the plan than the Autarch seems redundant. Obviously an Autarch is important for the replenishing of every 6th command point, but what do you guys recommend?
Does anyone use a farseer to hang near the dark reapers for a Guide each turn (plus one other spell) in addition to another farseer that would be more forward? Part of me thinks that an Autarch would be good enough and that I really don't need 2 farseers. So what is this I hear about Dark Reapers + Guide?
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Post by: Spartacus
Kharneth wrote:I have heard two pieces of advice that seem contrary and was hoping for an explanation.
Who should baby sit your unit (or two) of Dark Reapers?
I've heard people like to use an Autarch with a reaper launcher to provide rerolling 1s to hit and also for an additional launcher (that may also be able to target characters). I have additionally heard that you should use Guide on your Dark Reapers, but if this is the plan than the Autarch seems redundant. Obviously an Autarch is important for the replenishing of every 6th command point, but what do you guys recommend?
Does anyone use a farseer to hang near the dark reapers for a Guide each turn (plus one other spell) in addition to another farseer that would be more forward? Part of me thinks that an Autarch would be good enough and that I really don't need 2 farseers. So what is this I hear about Dark Reapers + Guide?
If you're going 1 big unit, Farseer for sure. Forewarned is an awesome power to use on an ultra powerful shooty unit. Also the single target buffs from the Farseer are not as effective across smaller units.
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Post by: FarseerReborn
Guys, now that the IK codex is out, is there any use for "our" Wraithknight?
Love the model, but it seems utterly useless to me
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Post by: Nevelon
kingheff wrote:
The hunters are excellent tank killers, better than any of the eldar tanks, but they're not tanks or transports which is the comparison I was trying to figure out. I'm not trying to imply that the falcon is the best unit the craftworlds can field but they seem a very solid and maybe underrated unit to me at least.
The problem with Falcons is that they have been out performed by their peers for pretty much every edition. Wave Serpents put out comparable firepower, but are tougher, have a larger cargo capacity, and don’t take up HS slots. An in some editions have extra broken rules on top of that. It’s not a problem exclusive to the Falcon, but one that historically plagues the Eldar codex. Plenty of units are fine, solid performers, but they are not the 3-4 over the top broken units in the book. The fact that the WS often is in the list of broken things does the humble Flacon no favors.
I run 2 personally. They are the models that got me into Eldar. Blightlances alongside the pulse for long range AV firepower. Normally a small squad of Dire Avengers in one and Fire Dragons in the other.
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Post by: akaean
I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder. If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!
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Post by: Kharneth
akaean wrote:I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.
If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!
How do you get access to all 3 weapons without 3 individual ships?
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Post by: Lord Perversor
Kharneth wrote: akaean wrote:I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.
If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!
How do you get access to all 3 weapons without 3 individual ships?
IBecause the Fire prism and Night spinner are just a Falcon with an extra sprue. So all you need is buy one of those and all pieces to build all 3 come with it (as the difference between Falcon and other 2 it's just the turret and turret weapons between Nighspinner and Fire prism)
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Post by: Kharneth
Lord Perversor wrote: Kharneth wrote: akaean wrote:I also run a pair of Falcons. They have been consistent performers for me since 5th Edition. They are a reasonable solid tank with a strong armament. They aren't dependent on special rules to perform, and they will likely be a reasonable choice in any edition as the rules change around them (unless they become horridly overpriced). Falcons were absolutely hilarious in 5th edition, when Holofields were roll 2d6 take the lowest for damage... put a squad of Dire Avengers in one. Boom, neigh unkillable objective holder.
If you are starting out though, you should magnetize so you can switch freely between the Night Spinner, Fire Prism, and Falcon. That way you can play whichever you like whenever you like!
How do you get access to all 3 weapons without 3 individual ships?
IBecause the Fire prism and Night spinner are just a Falcon with an extra sprue. So all you need is buy one of those and all pieces to build all 3 come with it (as the difference between Falcon and other 2 it's just the turret and turret weapons between Nighspinner and Fire prism)
So, if I buy a Fire Prism it will give me the turret for a Night spinner?
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Post by: Bharring
Fire Prism/Night Spinner use the same main body for their turret, so you'd need to:
-Get reeeely good at magnitizing (too much specificity here for it to be worth it, IMO)
-Find someone with leftover bits
-Buy 2 boxes
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Post by: Weidekuh
Fire prism and Nightspinner are very easy to magnetise. You can build both with one box. I've done it. I'm sure there are tutorials on youtube.
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