Bharring wrote: Fire Prism/Night Spinner use the same main body for their turret, so you'd need to:
-Get reeeely good at magnitizing (too much specificity here for it to be worth it, IMO)
-Find someone with leftover bits
-Buy 2 boxes
There's also the FireStorm and Warp Hunter that use the same chasis. The Warp Hunter has a gun that is very distinctive, but the Firestorm is basically a triple-linked Scatter Laser on a turret with full vertical articulation (think anti-air: the CWE version of a Stalker). Making a Firestorm turret shouldn't be hard, and should be a lot of fun (rules, though, ...).
Yes definitely don't throw away your Nightspinner bits, last edition they were much better than Fire Prisms, could devastate a lot of AV targets when used in a squad of 3.
I've built up my Grav Tank fleet across 5 editions, and every type has been powerful at some point. Between kit purchases and Ebay guns/turrets gathering, I can put at least 3 of any variant on the table, and a total of 9 hulls.
Don't let current rules be an excuse to ignore the other variants when building a new kit. Magnetize turrets and weapons, or some other system of interchangeability. Your future self will thank you.
Bharring wrote: There's also the FireStorm and Warp Hunter that use the same chasis. The Warp Hunter has a gun that is very distinctive, but the Firestorm is basically a triple-linked Scatter Laser on a turret with full vertical articulation (think anti-air: the CWE version of a Stalker). Making a Firestorm turret shouldn't be hard, and should be a lot of fun (rules, though, ...).
Warp hunter and Firestorm are from FW and you can find they rules on IA: Xenos ( Firestorm comes without points in latest Faq)
So, to cut a long story short I'm planning to troll, in a friendly way of course, my friend who plays a defensive Imperial guard gunline with my Eldar army. He's playing his chaos marines in our next game so I'm trying to create the best approximation of a guard list I can with what I've got.
My question is am I crazy to use the Iyanden trait over the Alaitoc version? I've treid to make my heavy units as survivable as possible and I'm thinking that keeping them as fully functional as possible with Iyanden trait is worth taking the extra hits that I'd avoid with Alaitoc. The asterisks show models starting in transports, the characters may not start in them if I can hide them well enough with the terrain.
HQ's
Altansar battalion (Iyanden)
Farseer [warlord] with singing spear PTS: 105 *
Powers: Smite, Doom, Executioner
Trait: Seer of the shifting vector
Faolchu's wing
FarseerReborn wrote: Is there anything Eldar Craftworlds can do now vs an optimized full Imperial Knights list?
Knights have no strong answer to Alaitoc shooty lists (aside from House Mortan who can ignore it on 1 unit for 1 CP). It'll simply be a matter of gunning down individual targets one at a time using distributed firepower and psychic support, while outscoring them on objectives using Ranger squads.
Jinx/Doom are your friends to take down the nastiest target each turn. Fliers, Fire Prisms and Mortal Wounds will be your most useful tools to whittle them down. Maybe a Shining Spear Squad to intercept those Armigers as they charge in. I think the most important thing will be target priority. E.g. Is it really necessary to keep pounding away at the enemies warlord with a 3++, when the other knights are all only 5++?
Probably not a common thing in every Eldar players collection, but a Scorpion is a horrifying prospect for a Knight player to face. Massive single target damage, averages about 23 wounds on a big Knight before you even start stacking any buffs. Mine is certainly relishing the opportunity for more LOW kill rings.
FarseerReborn wrote: Is there anything Eldar Craftworlds can do now vs an optimized full Imperial Knights list?
Tough call, Knights are new and shiny which means their optimal tactics are not fully understood yet and so nor are the counters.
Some food for thought. You are going to be facing a full army of T7/8 models with a 5++ (or better) vs shooting. That instantly puts our stock weapons like Brightlances in a bad spot as they are only S8 but their AP-4 is wasted vs knight. Dark Reapers will do work as they put out cheaper S8 shooting and the AP-2 is as good as you will get against Knight anyway.
Doom will be very important against such a tough army, as will Jinx to help get damage past their saves. Knight have no psychic defenses to speak of so your psykers should have a field day. Each model is expensive so powers that target enemy units will be disproportionately effective. Another tactic you can try is spamming Mortal wounds. Smite is a good start but Mind War is even better if you can stack your modifiers. Put Swooping Hawks near your Farseer for +1Ld and then put a Hemlock Wraithfighter near your target to nerf its Ld. For nastiness, bring some allied Harlequins for even more Ld shenanigans. It is possible to get a +4 or +5 bonus on Mind War before you even roll the dice.
Knights are very CP-hungry so many players are planning to bring an allied Guard Battalion to help generate CPs. This means that at least you will have some valid targets for your anti-infantry guns.
Weight of fire is important. Knights now have stratagems like "Machine Spirit Resurgent", as well as rerolling hits vs flyers to make sure that even a damaged Knight can still do reasonable damage. Go for the kill rather than spreading damage across multiple targets where possible.
Wave Serpents and War walkers make good heavy weapons platforms against Knight. IKs have lots of 2D or D3 damage weapons meaning Wave Serpent shields will soak up a lot of damage for you. Plasma Decimators and other high AP weapons will be wasted against the 5++ save of War walkers.
Trying to tackle any Knights apart from Helverins in close combat is risky as even non-CC Knights like Crusaders and Dominus hit as hard as 3-4 Battlecannons with their Titanic Feet. Put your infantry in ruins where possible as Knights cannot enter these. It may be a bit cheesy but RAW, that is how it stands.
Wraithlords with Glaives are cheap and have enough punch to do serious damage to an IK in CC as they will be wounding on 3s, and doing D6 damage per hit that bypasses their Ion Shields. Just be aware that this may well be a suicide attack as if the Knight survives, the Wraithlord will likely be toast and even if the Knight dies, his buddies will probably kill the WL for its temerity. Still, you can run 3 WLs for the price of even the cheapest Questoris Knight so it is worth considering.
A big unit of Wraithguard in the Webway can be useful. On average, they will do 10 points of damage in a single shooting phase but this can be boosted with Guide and/or Doom. So if supported they can wipe out an Armiger in one volley or finish off a larger Knight if it is already damaged.
Beyond that, play the Objectives. Knights are armies of just a few powerful units. If you can burrow deep in cover and sit on objectives, they may find it hard to dig you out. Hardly heroic but there are many paths to Victory.
dan2026 wrote: Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?
I don't see why it wouldn't. If you take it in your list, it is considered and "enemy unit" for you opponent. If it is closer than the character, the WWG would therefore be the closest enemy to you opponent's units.
dan2026 wrote: Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?
I don't see why it wouldn't. If you take it in your list, it is considered and "enemy unit" for you opponent. If it is closer than the character, the WWG would therefore be the closest enemy to you opponent's units.
dan2026 wrote: Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?
I don't see why it wouldn't. If you take it in your list, it is considered and "enemy unit" for you opponent. If it is closer than the character, the WWG would therefore be the closest enemy to you opponent's units.
I'm not sure how the rules work in this case, perhaps there is nothing written and therefore the fortification does prevent the character from being targeted, however I don't think I'd play it that way unless my gaming group insisted.
I'm not sure how the rules work in this case, perhaps there is nothing written and therefore the fortification does prevent the character from being targeted, however I don't think I'd play it that way unless my gaming group insisted.
Why wouldn't fortification count? I don't recall specific rules for them in that regard.
I'm not sure how the rules work in this case, perhaps there is nothing written and therefore the fortification does prevent the character from being targeted, however I don't think I'd play it that way unless my gaming group insisted.
Why wouldn't fortification count? I don't recall specific rules for them in that regard.
Yeah, I'm not sure if there are any rules regarding this so RAW would allow it. Realistically, though, it doesn't really make sense. I wouldn't expect to be unable to target anyone else's characters if that character was further away than a fortification they purchased for their army. That's just personal, though. I'm not sure what the opinion of the rest of my community. I wouldn't refuse to play with someone who was demanding that the fortification blocks access to their character, but at the same time, if I went into a game with my own fortification I wouldn't expect (or rely on) it to prevent people from targeting my character.
I mean, if you put your character in a fortification now it cannot be targeted. I've only played a game with a fortification once and it was against Tau and they had a hovering barricade. If the only thing he had in that fortification was his character and everything else was behind it, I'd assume I could choose either the character or the fortification. I have literally no rules justification for this, though, it's just a personal expectation. I'll ask my league organizer tonight, because that'd be a really helpful thing to know in case I come across another fortification.
kingheff wrote: So, to cut a long story short I'm planning to troll, in a friendly way of course, my friend who plays a defensive Imperial guard gunline with my Eldar army. He's playing his chaos marines in our next game so I'm trying to create the best approximation of a guard list I can with what I've got.
My question is am I crazy to use the Iyanden trait over the Alaitoc version? I've treid to make my heavy units as survivable as possible and I'm thinking that keeping them as fully functional as possible with Iyanden trait is worth taking the extra hits that I'd avoid with Alaitoc. The asterisks show models starting in transports, the characters may not start in them if I can hide them well enough with the terrain.
HQ's
Altansar battalion (Iyanden)
Farseer [warlord] with singing spear PTS: 105 *
Powers: Smite, Doom, Executioner
Trait: Seer of the shifting vector
Faolchu's wing
I know they're not as good as they used to be, but how do you guys feel about Warp Hunters against Knights? I still use one now and again, they seem to do very well against big targets, such as Greater Daemons. They do cost alot of points now but with Doom and Jinx, in flamer mode with a few CPs for re-rolls, I reckon 1 or 2 would do some work.
I think Fire Prisms are pretty good. 2 cost less than even the cheapest of the big Knights and can put serious hurt on one. Linked Fire in Focussed mode (with both firing twice thanked to pulse laser fire) will do on average 8 wounds to a Knight (unless they Rotate Ion Shields). Use "Lightning Fast Reflexes" to help minimise return fire (works even better if you are Alaitoc).
With recent and ongoing changes to the game (deepstrike changes, rise of DE and other shooty forces, pts increase for Reapers) are they looking any more attractive or about the same? I know the direct comparison is Spears, but I imagine you'd run both. The native -1 to hit just keeps looking better, and mobile heavy flamers seem to be a strong answer to a variety of units (hordes, DE gunboats, flyers). Is the answer still just "more Spears"?
I would plan on using them in a squad of 7-9 with a similar size Spears squad and an Alaitoc flyer detachment with at least 2 Hemlocks. The idea being they all present fast, dangerous, units none of which can be ignored and none are easy targets with buffs/stratagems. Thoughts?
I think Spectres are pretty good, though I do think Spears are better. Paired together they make a decent tag team. I've had good results with them, they do hit hard, the trick is keeping your investment alive. They can do good work with guide, making them Ynnari, Alaitoc and like you said they do help with hordes. Give them a go, have a play around with them, I like your plan. They're a bit "glass cannon" but good fun to use and the models are awesome.
Played a game recently against a 5 Knight list. Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone. Being Alaitoc kept my Prisms alive all game. I also had 2 Hemlocks and 1 Crimson Hunter that were able to chip wounds off here and there, plus Rangers doing a Mortal wound once or twice.
I was quite surprised at how well the list did, although I probably shouldn't have been. Almost everything in my army that could would did so at AP-3 or better.
One thing that my opponent and I agreed on is that being on an upper level of a Ruin making my Rangers "unchangeable" by the Knights was dumb. But I used the tactic anyway and was able to bottle neck the Knights to approach 1 at a time.
One thing that my opponent and I agreed on is that being on an upper level of a Ruin making my Rangers "unchangeable" by the Knights was dumb. But I used the tactic anyway and was able to bottle neck the Knights to approach 1 at a time.
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They have a stratagem to fight things on upper levels.
One thing that my opponent and I agreed on is that being on an upper level of a Ruin making my Rangers "unchangeable" by the Knights was dumb. But I used the tactic anyway and was able to bottle neck the Knights to approach 1 at a time. -
They have a stratagem to fight things on upper levels.
Not sure why he didn't use it. Although he only had 4 CPs when the game started as he spend most of his others prior to the game on additional WL traits or something. So maybe he didn't think it was worth it.
Yea a 350-400 point Knight burning Command Points to attack a 60 point Eldar Ranger Squad in a Ruin is a difficult decision to make. Especially since the Knight cannot use its titanic feet, and is thus can only make the attacks if it has a Chain Sword or Gauntlet, which is only 4 attacks (or 5 on a Gallant). Any 1s to wound and even a 5 man Ranger Squad might live.
Eldar are in a good position to fight Knights, possibly one of the very best armies for putting them down. The Eldar Psychic Powers are excellent and play into the inherant weaknesses of Knights, taking advantage of their large single models susceptible to hexes, and complete lack of anti psycher outside of allies. Jinx essentially negates Rotate Ion Shields, and combined with Doom makes the mass s6 shooting native to most Eldar lists very effective. Remember Jinx targets Armor Saves too. So a Doomed and Jinxed Knight being lit up by Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons has a 55% chance of being wounded by their guns, and only has a 4+ save at best to counter. As @Galef noted, the Linked Fire stratagem on Fire Prisms is almost custom made for combating Knights and other large multi wound single target threats.
Eldar rules actively encourage focusing fire on a single target until it is destroyed. This sums up Knights to a T, and they are ideal targets for everything from Doom, Jinx, Linked Fire, Fire Dragons, Reaper Missile Launchers, Waithguard, and can even threaten with just massed fire from the rest of the army supported by the aforementioned Doom and Jinx.
Then you remember that Wave Serpent Shields make life horrible for the Knights Damage 2 Weapons, and take some of the edge off of Armiger Auto Cannons... you have a painful combination for most knight lists.
akaean wrote: Yea a 350-400 point Knight burning Command Points to attack a 60 point Eldar Ranger Squad in a Ruin is a difficult decision to make. Especially since the Knight cannot use its titanic feet, and is thus can only make the attacks if it has a Chain Sword or Gauntlet, which is only 4 attacks (or 5 on a Gallant). Any 1s to wound and even a 5 man Ranger Squad might live.
To be fair, though, we rolled the Kill point mission, so there were no objectives and assaulting would have given him additional movement to get closer for next turn, even more if he killed the unit and consolidated. Had I known that strat existed for him, I would have encouraged him to use it. There were opportunities to charge multiple units
Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone.
Which weapon profile?
The middle one, Focused, I think. The S9 D3 shot one. There is literally no situation to fire the Lance shot.
Against Knights, both modes bring the Armour save beyond their Invul, so they'll just use the invul, and both modes wound on 3+. So the mode with more shots will always be better.
D6 damage is nice, but it's only 1 shot (well 2 from firing twice). 2D3 shots have a greater chance of getting through to roll multiple D3 damages.
With Jinx, the Knight would only succeed with their invul on a 6. With 3 Prisms, that was 6D3 shots rerolling to hit and wound.
I did need some help stripping off wounds first from the Hemlocks and Crimson Hunter, however
FarseerReborn wrote: Aren't 10-man ynnari dark reapers better at wounding Knights?
Maybe, but Ynnari is kinda weak-sauce right now and Reapers aren't plastic, so I don't have any. Although, technically Prisms are better at "wounding" because they wound on 3+, not 4+ like Reapers. Prisms (in this particular case) also reroll to hit and to wound because of their Strat. 2 of my Prisms were also out of LOS to the Knights, because Linked Fire allows that. Reapers have to be visible. Ynarri Reapers also cannot benefit from the Alaitoc Trait, which made a big difference for my Prisms.
It really just comes donw to personal taste. I like Prisms. I think Reapers are "meh", although not the rules in general, just that they are Infantry that requires support and not jetbikes or vehicles that are mostly self-sufficient.
FarseerReborn wrote: Aren't 10-man ynnari dark reapers better at wounding Knights?
Maybe, but Ynnari is kinda weak-sauce right now and Reapers aren't plastic, so I don't have any.
Although, technically Prisms are better at "wounding" because they wound on 3+, not 4+ like Reapers. Prisms (in this particular case) also reroll to hit and to wound because of their Strat.
2 of my Prisms were also out of LOS to the Knights, because Linked Fire allows that. Reapers have to be visible.
Ynarri Reapers also cannot benefit from the Alaitoc Trait, which made a big difference for my Prisms.
It really just comes donw to personal taste. I like Prisms. I think Reapers are "meh", although not the rules in general, just that they are Infantry that requires support and not jetbikes or vehicles that are mostly self-sufficient.
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You've really inspired me to get a Fire Prism I think they're really cool and my Dark Reapers have not been living up to their hype. Reapers are cool as hell, though so I'll probably keep them. But the bright lances and reaper launchers just aren't cutting it and the Fire Prism seems to be an anti-everything vehicle. Do you ever find yourself using the dispersed beam or do you pretty much solely use them as tank/monster hunters?
Kharneth wrote: Do you ever find yourself using the dispersed beam or do you pretty much solely use them as tank/monster hunters?
I like the option, but in general, I end up always using the Focus mode, as my opponents tend to have plenty of targets for it, while the rest of my army takes on single wound targets.
I have yet to actually use the Dispersed mode.
One Fire Prism is ok. A quad-las Pred is going to pop vehicles much better than a Prism, but the Prism will do better against non-vehicles. Similarly, does better against vehicles than anti-infantry vehicles, but worse against infantry.
Two or more Fire Prisms, now that's a different story. The strat is *really* good at nuking a big scary unit/model.
Bharring wrote: One Fire Prism is ok. A quad-las Pred is going to pop vehicles much better than a Prism, but the Prism will do better against non-vehicles. Similarly, does better against vehicles than anti-infantry vehicles, but worse against infantry.
Two or more Fire Prisms, now that's a different story. The strat is *really* good at nuking a big scary unit/model.
Agreed. You can't just do 1 Prism. You need 2 at minimum and 3 is the best choice.
Bharring wrote: One Fire Prism is ok. A quad-las Pred is going to pop vehicles much better than a Prism, but the Prism will do better against non-vehicles. Similarly, does better against vehicles than anti-infantry vehicles, but worse against infantry.
Two or more Fire Prisms, now that's a different story. The strat is *really* good at nuking a big scary unit/model.
Agreed. You can't just do 1 Prism. You need 2 at minimum and 3 is the best choice.
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Because Linked Fire is not restricted to a pair, but merely requires at least 2?
That feels like such a huge investment (money and points) and 3 of them feels like it'd be boring. What other vehicles do you use with those 3 Fire Prisms? Did you say 2 Hemlocks and a Hunter? Do field any Wave Serpents or do you find those 6 vehicles sufficient for target saturation?
Because Linked Fire is not restricted to a pair, but merely requires at least 2?
That feels like such a huge investment (money and points) and 3 of them feels like it'd be boring. What other vehicles do you use with those 3 Fire Prisms? Did you say 2 Hemlocks and a Hunter? Do field any Wave Serpents or do you find those 6 vehicles sufficient for target saturation?
Yes, you need 2 to use Linked Fire and the 3rd Prism is just in case one gets killed so you still have 2. With the Strat, one 1 needs to be in LoS of the enemy. The other 2 can hide and only need to see the other Prism.
Prisms are so versatile that 3 of them is not boring. And I only take 6 vehicles. 3 Flyers & 3 tanks. My 3rd Prism is also a Wave Serpent that I use in some games.
I take a minimum of 2 Prisms, but I've found that when 1 of them dies, the other struggles, or I have to dedicate a Farseer to get the rerolls again.
Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone.
Which weapon profile?
Focussed is statistically slightly better than lance for T7-8 3+ vehicles. Although lance benefits more from a trusty CP reroll on the damage result.
Mathhammer shows you'll only avg about 16 wounds even with Jinx, so I wouldn't expect to delete 1 big knight every turn with just Fire Prisms (makes sense, as the prisms are about the same cost as a Questoris knight).
Yes, I should clarify, the Prisms were deleting 1 Knight per turn, but only once a few wounds were shaved off first using my Hemlocks. Jinx was also very handy
Tactically you should always start with the Prisms, but since each turn after the first had some wounded Knights, I wasn't shooting at unwounded Knights from that point on.
Some thoughts about Dark Reapers still being top notch for dealing with knights:
10-man unit (340 points)
- can be concealed
- always 3+ to hit
- 10 shots (average for 3 fire prisms= 12 shots)
- straight 3 wounds per hit
- can fire twice if ynnari
- can be guided
- no CP points to spend
- can be Forewarned with farseer stratagem
Mathhamer says:
3 fire prisms shooting a Knight with linked fire= 12, 6 wounds dealt
FarseerReborn wrote: Some thoughts about Dark Reapers still being top notch for dealing with knights:
10-man unit (340 points)
- can be concealed
- always 3+ to hit
- 10 shots (average for 3 fire prisms= 12 shots)
- straight 3 wounds per hit
- can fire twice if ynnari
- can be guided
- no CP points to spend
- can be Forewarned with farseer stratagem
Mathhamer says:
3 fire prisms shooting a Knight with linked fire= 12, 6 wounds dealt
Double that with Word of the Phoenix and you have 23, 8 wounds to a knight in a single turn
Yeah If youre going Ynarri, a big reaper unit is still a pretty strong take no matter what you face. My numbers for guided Reapers are a bit different though, only str 8 really gimps them:
FarseerReborn wrote: Some thoughts about Dark Reapers still being top notch for dealing with knights:
10-man unit (340 points)
- can be concealed
- always 3+ to hit
- 10 shots (average for 3 fire prisms= 12 shots)
- straight 3 wounds per hit
- can fire twice if ynnari
- can be guided
- no CP points to spend
- can be Forewarned with farseer stratagem
Mathhamer says:
3 fire prisms shooting a Knight with linked fire= 12, 6 wounds dealt
Double that with Word of the Phoenix and you have 23, 8 wounds to a knight in a single turn
Yeah If youre going Ynarri, a big reaper unit is still a pretty strong take no matter what you face. My numbers for guided Reapers are a bit different though, only str 8 really gimps them:
Thoughts on wraithblades? I bought the start collecting set and painted the wraiths up as wraithblades simply because they look awesome, I was wondering how people get on with them? I'm thinking of putting a spiritseer with them in a wave serpent to Chuck them forward to tackle juicy enemy units?
Rogerio134134 wrote: Thoughts on wraithblades? I bought the start collecting set and painted the wraiths up as wraithblades simply because they look awesome, I was wondering how people get on with them? I'm thinking of putting a spiritseer with them in a wave serpent to Chuck them forward to tackle juicy enemy units?
Note: theory here, haven’t finished building/painting mine (but it’s on my list)
Often I find that once I disembark, I die with normal eldar infantry. There are a number of time I want to get out of the tank and keep a boot on an objective for more then a nanosecond. Wraith units seem to fill the role of an anchor/anvil unit pretty well. My first choice (and the one I built first) would be d-scythes. But one other thing I found wanting is a little CC chop in my lists. Something that can get stuck in and carve stuff up. And something that’s not finecast. That’s where the wraithblades come in. Probably build them with axes. I’ve got the sprues, just need to work them into the schedule.
Tactically I play a mechanized list. Normally deploy in a refused flank position (cowering in the corner) and blast things with long range fire. When the enemy get close, troops disembark and end up acting like ablative shields to slow down the foe. My hope is that the wraiths can act like a non-ablitive shield and actually hold the line for a couple of turns.
karandrasss wrote: So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.
Doom, Guide, Smites, 2 Hemlocks, and 14 Reaper Launchers. That's my defense. Focus fire you're fire. The thing about knights, they put out scary fire, but once they start dropping, they are in trouble. You get one down turn 1, you're in a good place.
karandrasss wrote: So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.
Doom, Guide, Smites, 2 Hemlocks, and 14 Reaper Launchers. That's my defense. Focus fire you're fire. The thing about knights, they put out scary fire, but once they start dropping, they are in trouble. You get one down turn 1, you're in a good place.
How do you deal with Doom pre-empting Rotate Ion Shields? Meaning your target will always have an improved invuln, sometimes even 3++, if you Doom your target first.
Do you have the math? I don't trust Fire Prisms against anything with an invuln save.
How do you deal with Doom pre-empting Rotate Ion Shields? Meaning your target will always have an improved invuln, sometimes even 3++, if you Doom your target first.
We've got maths for Fire Prisms and Reapers on this very page of discussion. An 5+ invuln save is basically a flat 1/3 reduction in damage unless you can ignore it with mortal wounds.
Deepstriking Fire Dragons and quickened Shining Spears are also decent.
The best idea is to try and split your opponents attention by also casting Jinx on another target you want to destroy. Should he use rotate to try and ignore the Jinx or counteract Doom?
Then in your shooting phase, start with your weakest shooting first (or the shooting that only has one good target). Your opponent will commit his stratagem once he knows the target it will provide most value on, but if you avoid showing you hand until as late as possible, he may either try to call your bluff early (so you can decide whether or not to change targets), or wait until you commit your biggest shooting (in which case you've done all the rest of your shooting without being effected by it).
karandrasss wrote: So what's our best defense against 3-5 Knight lists? Other than objectives because not everyone plays objectives, sadly.
Doom, Guide, Smites, 2 Hemlocks, and 14 Reaper Launchers. That's my defense. Focus fire you're fire. The thing about knights, they put out scary fire, but once they start dropping, they are in trouble. You get one down turn 1, you're in a good place.
How do you deal with Doom pre-empting Rotate Ion Shields? Meaning your target will always have an improved invuln, sometimes even 3++, if you Doom your target first.
That's what Jinx is for. That 3++ becomes 4++, and he's just wasted CP. Enough will get through.
Yes, Jinx makes a huge difference. Until the rules for them change, I will be taking 2 Hemlocks in just about every game I play. I take Jinx on both for redundancy (not to cast twice, obviously, but so that I still have it if one of them dies) and the other Hemlock just uses Smite.
Combined with a Doomseer and 3 Prisms, I doubt a Knight list will ever be an issue for me. I also use the Alaitoc trait, which can be very annoying for Knights.
Galef wrote: Yes, Jinx makes a huge difference. Until the rules for them change, I will be taking 2 Hemlocks in just about every game I play. I take Jinx on both for redundancy (not to cast twice, obviously, but so that I still have it if one of them dies) and the other Hemlock just uses Smite.
Combined with a Doomseer and 3 Prisms, I doubt a Knight list will ever be an issue for me. I also use the Alaitoc trait, which can be very annoying for Knights.
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Could you please post an army list for anti-knight?
The only changes to make this an "Anti-Knight" list is to swap the D-scythes for Wraithcannons and swap the Serpent for a 3rd Prism. The WG now have to use the Webway, but that is ok. I also have to swap the Guardians for more Rangers since the WG are now using the CP to use the Webway (cuz I'm not spending 3CP for only 2 units to drop, it should be a 1 for 1 strat)
Rangers shooting at a Doomed Knight, also seem to get decent Mortal Wounds
FarseerReborn wrote: Double Autarch skyrunner with reaper laucher? What is their role?
They are there to provide reroll 1s to my Prisms/Serpent when NOT using Linked Fire. Remember that not all Prisms need to Link fire. You can Link 2 of them, and the 3rd can shoot at something else. You'll probably want all 3 against an unwounded Knight, but if a Knight is already half dead, it could be wasted fire, so the 3rd Prism can start stripping wounds off a different Knight, preferably one that is wounded and Doomed.
Also, the Autarchs are relatively cheap and can provide much needed counter assault. Every now and then, a unit slips through and 1-2 Autarchs charging in can make a difference in protecting the Prisms. They aren't ideal for an "Anti-Knight" list, but they have been gold against other armies, particularly Marine list.
How's it working for you so far? You got a lot of variable number of shots there, all paying for high AP which can be disastrous against anything with invuln saves.
karandrasss wrote: How's it working for you so far? You got a lot of variable number of shots there, all paying for high AP which can be disastrous against anything with invuln saves.
My list struggles with hordes, not things with invuls. 100+ 1W model lists can be tough, but as Eldar, I have superior movement and other shenanigans to use to win the mission. I use the movement of my Flyers and deployment of my Rangers to strict enemy movement so they are where I want them.
I still don't get why everyone is so insistent that units with Invuls are such a hard counter. Pick a unit with an invul, cast Jinx on it, remove it from the board. That formula works pretty good for me. Throw in a Mortal Wounds from Smite and Rangers. 90% of invuls are 5+, maybe 4+. That still fails plenty and when it does, it really helps to have multi-damage weapons.
I haven't faced a DeathGuard or Nurgle list yet, which I suspect should be the hardest for my list to take on.
a big unit of 10 wraith Guard that was Protected and Fortuned ( I know ...kinda a waste) It soaked up so much fire.
my Seers owned the psychic phase as they do 8 of 10 games.
His biggest mistake was sending a 3rd of his army to go after my Hawks and Avengers. I told him that they were bait. I put them on his flank...and he STILL turned around to wipe them out. By they time they came back the game was over.
40k needs more use of tactics like Bait and flanking. Too many games are just in your face...throw dice.=== boring.
karandrasss wrote: How's it working for you so far? You got a lot of variable number of shots there, all paying for high AP which can be disastrous against anything with invuln saves.
My list struggles with hordes, not things with invuls. 100+ 1W model lists can be tough, but as Eldar, I have superior movement and other shenanigans to use to win the mission. I use the movement of my Flyers and deployment of my Rangers to strict enemy movement so they are where I want them.
I still don't get why everyone is so insistent that units with Invuls are such a hard counter. Pick a unit with an invul, cast Jinx on it, remove it from the board. That formula works pretty good for me. Throw in a Mortal Wounds from Smite and Rangers.
90% of invuls are 5+, maybe 4+. That still fails plenty and when it does, it really helps to have multi-damage weapons.
I haven't faced a DeathGuard or Nurgle list yet, which I suspect should be the hardest for my list to take on.
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How often do you play? In my experience (and the math agrees), more often than not, 3 linked Prisms on a Jinxed Magnus/Mortarion are a lot of wasted points.
karandrasss wrote: How often do you play? In my experience (and the math agrees), more often than not, 3 linked Prisms on a Jinxed Magnus/Mortarion are a lot of wasted points.
I don't play often enough. I used to play 1-2 games per week, but recently I am lucky to get in 1 per month due to family obligations. I do play at home a bit with my boys, but only 500-700pt games in which we don't use half the rules and are still using the Indexes for Marines, CSM and Necrons, so those games hardly count.
I'd agree with Linked Prisms vs Morty or Magnus. I'd certainly Jinx them, but I'd be more inclined to use Hemlocks against them first and if that drops enough wounds and the Prism aren't needed elsewhere (like against a zombie horde or some other threat like Drones), then it might be worth Linking the Prisms against them. It may be a ton of points (as in most of the army), but if you can drop one of them in a single turn, you can demoralize your opponent, so the investment may pay off. Remember that Morty/Magnus lists are often built around them. So taking them out can weaken the rest of the army to a manageable level.
Spartacus wrote: In my experience, everything takes a fair bit more than you first estimate to secure the kill once you are in game.
Overkill is far better than no-kill, especially on a LOW.
Agreed. That's why I always position my units so they can either contribute to the threat I need to kill, or split fire to something else.
If I get the kill, I still have options, but if I need the help, I've planned for it to be there.
That's what I like about Hemlocks, They are versatile enough to engage units alone, or aid in the finally wounding of an important target.
They also help block movement for a turn when placed correctly, albeit not against flying units
Well I used to like Maelstrom...but to be honest it is quite silly. Lets see...every battle has 6....yes exactly 6 wonder spots you need to hold.
Those fancy spots....well one minute your orders are to kill or blow up item number 2....then you must guard that important number 4 spot for 2 turns, etc.
First it is way to abstract....second....there is no military team that has that many 'random' and unknown missions at the same time.
Perhaps your supposed to get that general to safety across the board. Perhaps your supposed to blow up that bunker....or send a false message from the enemies radio tower. Perhaps........you get the point.
Now not all battles can be perfectly planned for....but most forces are not asked to win the world if they are 'reacting' to a mission.
They need Attacker and Defender Scenarios. VPs need to Count...killing your enemy should count for more than sitting on the Admirals Lunch Cooler box for 2 turns if you get my feel. AND the idea that wiping and enemies force completely is the only way to catch up to a VP superior opponent is junk....IF his force is pretty much gone....then Only the scenario mission should trump that.
2nd ed had the best VP calculations of the game ever. You had Squadrons and Vehicles and Units and the points were based on damaged or eliminated. You either got full or half VPs and the chart was based on a simple 100 points, 200 points, 300 points, etc value. Throw some VPs in for random crap, first blood, kill the leader etc...and finally add some major VPs for the mission like Eliminate the psyker or escape off the board...and you have a pretty decent game.
Going to sit on 6 objectives that have NOTHING to do with a Scenario is way to simple and willy nilly. I would rather play any to the death game over that.
Has anyone had any success with Windriders? I love almost every change they made to them for 8th (except not being Troops, but I at least understand that change), but it seems that they have become a subpar choice compared to Spears and even Vypers in some situations.
Having started playing Eldar back in 4th BECAUSE you could take jetbikes as Troops, it has been an adjustment for me. I like that WRs seem to be the best unit in the codex to benefit from Battlefocus and Shuricannons finally seem to be a better choice than Scatter lasers.
So personally, I take my 12 WRs in 2 units of 6, escorted by an Autarch Skyrunner or 2 (for reroll 1s and counter assault) and use the WRs to either mow down infantry, or strip the last few wounds off of a large target. It works pretty well overall, but I have to choose <Alaitoc> even in casual games for them as they die too fast otherwise.
Shining spears don't get to shoot beyond 12" and only get more firepower at 6". While they are superior in most ways, i find utility in a squad of windriders to sit on far out objectives and taking potshots.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Shining spears don't get to shoot beyond 12" and only get more firepower at 6". While they are superior in most ways, i find utility in a squad of windriders to sit on far out objectives and taking potshots.
Ranger do the same thing and are outrageously cheaper and more durable.
Rangers also sit there once they get there while bikes still get that move value. Look, i'm not saying they're stipid good, but they have their utility and aren't too expensive to kick around a small squad. Also i'd rather [insert disgusting deeds here] than get more finecast models atm and the metal rangers on ebay are beyond overpriced.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Thoughts on wraithlords?? I've got one in my start collecting set and love the model but I've heard it's pretty useless now.
Theoryhammer here, as I’ve got limited play experience with mine.
I picked up two SC boxes myself, and one of the reasons for that is I love the look of the WL. I recognized that they are a little “meh” so thought about what I could do to make them work.
The first one I built was the fire support one. Primary loadout is 2xbrightlance, just his fists for CC, and the ShurCats for small guns. Idea is to hang back with the gunline, pop shots downrange, anf punch things that get close. First game out last Sun, he got vaporized first turn before doing anything. At least he ate firepower that could have gone into my tanks.
My proposed 2nd one is going to be the charging CC one. Glave, ShurCannons. Not sure if the flamers are worth the points. His job is to advance, charge, and hopefully carve open some tanks. I ran one like this proxying my old WL, and it did OK. That was a while ago, vs. a very aggressive list that came to me, so I didn’t need to charge across the table. YMMV. However, the sword is very cool looking and needed to be included on at least one of my WLs. I couldn’t really justify it on the fire support guy.
Wraithlords are pretty good. They were poor in the Index but got +1T and +1A in the codex which got largely overlooked.
I tend to favour a mechanised list so I like to use my Wraithlords as distraction carnifexes. 2 Shuricannons and a Glaive is pretty cheap but punchy. They can Advance and still fire as the Shuricannons are Assault. He can keep up pretty close behind Wave Serpents if I need him to, shooting all the way and then hit stuff when he arrives. He hits just hard enough that my opponent really needs to deal with him but is cheap enough that his loss is not crippling.
I only have 2 issues with WLs.
1) They seem like the weird middle child of Wraith Constructs. WG have a fall back and still shoot rule, WKs have that and can ignore the penalty for moving with Heavy weapons. WLs needed something like either of those rules, it "should" have been ignoring moving with Heavy Weapons
2) As weird as this sounds, WLs need 1 less wound. By having 10 wounds, they are given a damage chart. As "Eldar Dreadnaughts" I really feel they would have been better of with only 9 wound and no damage chart.
Other than those 2 issues, WLs can be pretty decent. But you really have to play to their limitations. This pretty much means double Shuricannon advancing with the Glaive.
Hey all, need some help list building for a ETC warm up tournament. I am planning on running Harlequin/Drukhari as my army and was wondering if I bring a Aux detachment with a Farseer to use Doom. Can I use doom to let my Harlequins/Drukhari re-roll wounds against that target or does Doom only let Aeldari units to get re-roll wound rolls?
Thanks in advance for the help and sorry if it has been asked before.
Odrankt wrote: Hey all, need some help list building for a ETC warm up tournament. I am planning on running Harlequin/Drukhari as my army and was wondering if I bring a Aux detachment with a Farseer to use Doom. Can I use doom to let my Harlequins/Drukhari re-roll wounds against that target or does Doom only let Aeldari units to get re-roll wound rolls?
Thanks in advance for the help and sorry if it has been asked before.
It just says "you can reroll wounds" so the only condition is that you be the one rolling the dice.
Unless there is an FAQ Im not aware of', should work fine for allies.
Hey Guys,
i consider starting a new eldar army. I am aiming for 1000 points for a start. I only own the codex so far.
Maybe you can help me - what units are good? Sadly i am completely lost, due to the crazy viability of most units. Is there a unit-ranking of some sort for orientation? (forgive me if i missed it on the 70+ pages)
As far as i know good units are shining spears, dark reaper and the hemlock flyer. What about HQ and core? Is there a MSU Meta with 3X5 Ranger? Do you guys go for a Brigade oder Battalion with Outrider? Sorry for all the questions, but i am a Eldar-Noob
Thank you very much!
Edit: I really like the Alaitoc-mechanic (the -1 to hit over 12" ?). I would probably aim for a list with this rule..
Data04_exe wrote: Hey Guys,
i consider starting a new eldar army. I am aiming for 1000 points for a start. I only own the codex so far.
Maybe you can help me - what units are good? Sadly i am completely lost, due to the crazy viability of most units. Is there a unit-ranking of some sort for orientation? (forgive me if i missed it on the 70+ pages)
As far as i know good units are shining spears, dark reaper and the hemlock flyer. What about HQ and core? Is there a MSU Meta with 3X5 Ranger? Do you guys go for a Brigade oder Battalion with Outrider? Sorry for all the questions, but i am a Eldar-Noob
Thank you very much!
Edit: I really like the Alaitoc-mechanic (the -1 to hit over 12" ?). I would probably aim for a list with this rule..
You already pointed out the stronger units. In order of efficiency, my personal take is:
I went to TSHFT (ITC format) this weekend and brought an Eldar army due to my son using most of my Chaos models. I basically took what I owned but hadn't used in a few years, plus the purchase of a Farseer Skyrunner. Wound up going 2-3 over five games, all of them close, with the exception of the first one. These were basically my first 40k games of 8th edition, and my first games since mid 7th, about 2.5 years ago. I think my first few games were sloppy, due to lack of practice.
I brought:
Alaitoc Battalion:
Farseer Skyrunner
Illic
3x Dire Avengers (5 man with Exarch, dual Shuriken Cats)
1x Rangers
Warp Spiders (9 man with Exarch)
War Walkers (Missile Launchers)
3x Wave Serpents with Brightlances.
Alaitoc Spearhead Detachment:
2x Warlocks (on foot)
3x Fire Prisms (Crystal Targeting Matrix)
These were my first games with Eldar in about 4-5 years. They were my first army, but I switched to Daemons in late 5th Ed. Weapon choice on the Walkers and Serpents was dictated mostly by what bits I had available. I initially wanted to use Shuriken Cannons, but I couldn't find any in time.
Game 1: Ad Mech with an IG detachment. Biggest loss of the weekend
I had never played against Ad Mech or even looked at their codex. I was unprepared for the volume of fire from the Kastelan Robots. I went first and Linked Fire from three prisms failed to take out a single Dune Crawler (did 5 wounds). I rolled horribly for all three Prisms for number of shots, so even with the rerolls, I didn't do much. Answering fire saw me lose a prism and a serpent in turn 1. Also, the amount of Command Points he started with and his ability to get them back was insane.
Game 2: Salamanders. Loss
Close loss, but I deployed badly, and didn't use my Prisms as well as I could have.
Game 3 Ultramarines. Win
This one was super close. The Prisms were amazing here, removing large models easily. It was as close as it was because my opponent played the objectives much better than I did. He had a small model count army, but they were all Primaris Marines and Guilliman. He made excellent use of LoS-blocking terrain and hid his characters well.
Game 4 Death Guard. Loss
I managed to kill a Jinxed Mortarion in turn 2 (Prisms again), but the rest of his army was so durable I just couldn't wipe them out.
Game 5 Custodes. Win
Super close game again. Rangers and Illic took out Tigurius in Turn 1, and the Prism took out a large, scary walker at the same time. The rest of the game was trying to kill bikers and infantry that had really good armor and invul saves. I failed to cast Jinx a lot in this game. Again, my opponent played to the objectives better than I, and the game came down to my Farseer vs his Biker Captain in CC. He had one wound left, and failed re-rollable 3+. I would have lost the game if he had made that save. Winning enabled me to get points for an objective and killing that character.
Observations:
- The -1 to hit penalty from Alaitoc was amazing.
- In terms of damage output, the rangers and Illic were not very effective. Will probably drop Illic at the very least. Might still use Rangers area denial. Other army's snipers (Space Marines for ex) can infiltrate during deployment, while we have to wait for turn 1. One of my opponents was able to perch in the spots I wanted due to this.
- Warp Spiders were also underwhelming, but occasionally they were great for objective grabbing or corner control for objective points. Might keep.
- I needed a way to regain CPs. Every opponent I faced could due this to some extent. It seems unfair that for Eldar or Dark Eldar, your warlord is the one that can regain points, but only on a 6. While Imperium seem to have multiple ways to get CPs back (Warlord or Relics) and do it on a 5+ in most cases.
- I need more CPs to start with (had 9). Will probably take two Battalions, drop Illic and take an Autarch Skyrunner.
- I need more practice. My play was sloppy, with me forgetting to cast Smite a few times where it could have made a huge difference. My first opponent was cool enough to remind me that I had a psychic phase, and all of them were gracious about letting me correct small mistakes I made.
As far as i know good units are shining spears, dark reaper and the hemlock flyer. What about HQ and core? Is there a MSU Meta with 3X5 Ranger? Do you guys go for a Brigade oder Battalion with Outrider? Sorry for all the questions, but i am a Eldar-Noob
Allquestions are welcome. We were all Noobs once (in my case it was back in 1st edition which dates me rather alarmingly ).
I generally go for Battalion + Spearhead as Eldar have lots of good choices in Heavy Support and both Dark Reapers and Fire Prisms deserve to be fielded in multiples.
Yes, Rangers are a decent Troop choice. They are not amazingly effective but they work well in an Alatitoc list, they are cheap and they are the longest ranged Troop units in the army. With more big LoWs in the meta now that Knights are released, their Mortal Wounds are a bit more effective too. Don't expect too much from them and they will do fine. Use them to hold objectives and screen your more valuable units from charges and units coming in from Reserves. If they kill anything, that is a bonus.
Guardians are poor (especially Storm Guardians). Defenders really only work if you are using the Webway Portal stratagem to deploy a unit of 20 and then support them with Guide and Doom. The trouble is that this sort of Guardian-bomb can be screened against and is a bit of a 1-shot-wonder.
I actually quite like Dire Avengers. They put out quite a lot of mobile firepower and are good at claiming midfield objectives. They often survive by being perceived as low threat.
I really like to go double battalion these days, 4 HQs doesnt hurt (1-2 farseer, 1 autarch, 1-2 spiritseers or skyrunner warlocks),4 5man squads of DA fit in 2 serpents, a blob of guardians or two from the webway takes care of horde control.
From there you can add whatever you fancy and get enough cp to fuel it all. That's more towards 1750+ pts, of course.
I personally don't run rangers because i dislike the finecast models, in a competitive sense that's bull of course.
Thanks for all the help!
What do you guys think of this for a start: (~1100 Points)
Battalion Alaitoc:
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer
5 Dire Avangers in Wave Serpent
2 X 5 Ranger
5 Shining Spears
5 Dark Reapers
1 Hemlock
Question:
What Relics/Warlord Traits would you recommend?
Thanks again!
edit: Psy-Power you would probably take the -1 to hit and doom (reroll to wound) right? I usualy play Necrons so the Psy-Phase normaly is a Auto-Skip for me
Data04_exe wrote: Thanks for all the help!
What do you guys think of this for a start: (~1100 Points)
Battalion Alaitoc:
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer
5 Dire Avangers in Wave Serpent
2 X 5 Ranger
5 Shining Spears
5 Dark Reapers
1 Hemlock
Question:
What Relics/Warlord Traits would you recommend?
Thanks again!
edit: Psy-Power you would probably take the -1 to hit and doom (reroll to wound) right? I usualy play Necrons so the Psy-Phase normaly is a Auto-Skip for me
For the Autarch, I normally favour Shimmerplume Helm and "An eye on Distant Events". Shimmerplume Helm provides and additional -1 to hit which stacks with the Alatitoc trait and makes your Warlord almost unhittable. Combine with the "Lightning Fast reflexes" stratagem for true obnoxiousness.
"An eye on Distant Events" negates enemy Overwatch which is really powerful on a single character who is both fast and punchy.
If your group allows Index options you can give your Autarch a Banshee Mask which does the same job. If you are allowed this option then you can take "Fate's Messenger" which is really niice for +1 Wound and a 6+++ FNP.
Karhedron wrote: If your group allows Index options you can give your Autarch a Banshee Mask which does the same job. If you are allowed this option then you can take "Fate's Messenger" which is really niice for +1 Wound and a 6+++ FNP.
And if your group doesn't allow Index options, you should find another group. Index options are 100% part of the rules according to the Designers Comments.
An alternative option for you Autarch is to give him a Reaper Launcher and "Incomparable Hunter" so he can snipe other characters.
undertow wrote: I went to TSHFT (ITC format) this weekend and brought an Eldar army.
Enjoyable read, are you just getting back into the hobby? I'm in the same shoes as you having not played for 5 or 6 years and note have my Eldar and Deathwatch on the painting table.
I think I'm going to be exactly the same when I play forgetting everything as it's been multiple editions since I played! Sounds like you had fun though which is the main thing.
undertow wrote: I went to TSHFT (ITC format) this weekend and brought an Eldar army.
Enjoyable read, are you just getting back into the hobby? I'm in the same shoes as you having not played for 5 or 6 years and note have my Eldar and Deathwatch on the painting table.
I think I'm going to be exactly the same when I play forgetting everything as it's been multiple editions since I played! Sounds like you had fun though which is the main thing.
Yeah, I hadn't played a game in about 2.5 years, and hadn't played my Eldar in about 5.
The tournament was a lot of fun, all of my opponents were great. Two of my sons were there with me (22 and 16 yrs old).
What is your general in-game strategy with this army against the common top-tier armies, ie. how do you actually win with this arm?
For example, what do you Fortune?
How do I win? Um, depends on my opponent. Typically I just target enemy units that will give me issues later on and take objectives. I play the mission.
Fortune either goes on the Serpent or the WG depending, but I've also used it on the Prisms that peaks out of LOS for Linked Fire, although usually I use Fire & Fade to keep both Prims out of LoS. I also use the movement of the Hemlocks to block movement of enemies, or as a general distraction. The Farseer moves to where the Guardians want to drop, Dooms the unit they will shoot at, then they drop around the Seer. The Autarchs give out rerolls, plink shots and provide counter assault.
I'm not sure where your condescension is coming from as this list does pretty well for me and is the closest to an all-comers list I can take. I have to be fairly adaptable and basically predict what my opponent plans on doing, but that has always been my best strength as a player (at least before GW priced me out of owning all the rules). But the list has just about all the tools for the jobs I need to do. Admittedly, I swap the WG and Serpent for 5 Shining Spears and a 3rd Prism in competitive tournies, but I play this list more often
There's no condescension. I was genuinely asking about your in-game decisions with this army that leads it to victory, particularly against the other competitive armies.
Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true, and I wanted to know how it worked because it was a list that appealed to me.
DarknessEternal wrote: There's no condescension. I was genuinely asking about your in-game decisions with this army that leads it to victory, particularly against the other competitive armies.
Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true, and I wanted to know how it worked because it was a list that appealed to me.
Oh, sorry. I read context that wasn't there.
I took a similar list a few weeks ago against a 5 Knight list. He only had 1900pts, so to drop to that, I swapped the Guardians for more Rangers, dropped 1 WG and gave them all Cannons and swapped the Serpent for a 3rd Prism. I didn't think it would do well, but I ended up going first and killed one of the Knights in the first turn using Linked Fire on the Prims. I also used the Hemlocks to block another Knight from being able to move his full movement towards me, which bought an extra turn to shoot at it (or rather to shoot at another Knight) The Rangers did surprisingly well in the game too, especially with Doom.
Jinx was absolutely the MVP power in this game, and is pretty much my favorite power. Turning those 5++ into 6s effectively doubled my damage output. I was removing 1 Knight per turn. I was also able to put various wounds on other Knights each turn as well. By turn 3, the Knight played had a severely crippled Knight (like 2-3 wound left) and his 2 mini-Knights left. I had only lost the WG (who webway portaled in and ALMOST killed an unwounded Knight on the drop), 1 Hemlock and 2 Ranger units
DarknessEternal wrote: Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true....
True. My list got 25 rangers and other players don't understand why I would pick a unit with that low amount of damage output. The gave me the math but don't see the complete picture and the synergy with other units within the army. My Craftworld/harlequin/drukhari army got an amazing toolbox and players don't see it's potential until the play against it. It's like a "glass scalpel" list but players only see the glass until the get cut!
Galef wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote: There's no condescension. I was genuinely asking about your in-game decisions with this army that leads it to victory, particularly against the other competitive armies.
Many people still think army lists are all you need to win, but in today's 8th edition, this is simply not true, and I wanted to know how it worked because it was a list that appealed to me.
Oh, sorry. I read context that wasn't there.
I took a similar list a few weeks ago against a 5 Knight list. He only had 1900pts, so to drop to that, I swapped the Guardians for more Rangers, dropped 1 WG and gave them all Cannons and swapped the Serpent for a 3rd Prism.
I didn't think it would do well, but I ended up going first and killed one of the Knights in the first turn using Linked Fire on the Prims.
I also used the Hemlocks to block another Knight from being able to move his full movement towards me, which bought an extra turn to shoot at it (or rather to shoot at another Knight)
The Rangers did surprisingly well in the game too, especially with Doom.
Jinx was absolutely the MVP power in this game, and is pretty much my favorite power. Turning those 5++ into 6s effectively doubled my damage output. I was removing 1 Knight per turn. I was also able to put various wounds on other Knights each turn as well. By turn 3, the Knight played had a severely crippled Knight (like 2-3 wound left) and his 2 mini-Knights left. I had only lost the WG (who webway portaled in and ALMOST killed an unwounded Knight on the drop), 1 Hemlock and 2 Ranger units
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Doom and jinx are so important so that's why would almost always include a warlock with jinx to make sure I can use the +1 psychic test stratagem for farseer and warlock combi. My armylist also includes 3x10 mandrakes with balefire, in combination with doom and jinx knights start to drop!
I played a game yesterday and it did not go well for me...at all. My opponent had 3 Renegade knights with double dakka on all of them and a TSons Battalion with Arhiman, 1 Flying Prince 2x 10 cultist and 30, yes 30, 'deepstriking' Tzaangors.
My dice completely failed me as I only got Jinx off once and my Prisms never rolled more that 2 shots on a D3 for the Focused mode and often only rolled 1. I also ran out of CPs in turn 2. Arhiman just shut down my psychic phase and the Prince had a field day against my Flyers (mostly but making me scared to go near it). He went first and we were playing the table corners deployment, so he boxed me in early. I managed to kill 2 of the 3 Knights by turn 3, even with him consistently having either a 5++ or 4++ for rotating Ion shields and Jink either failing or being denied by Arhiman. But by then it was far too late. All the objectives were on the opposite corner and I lost too much firepower to muscle my way through. And the Rangers I had placed on the objective kinda evaporated by turn 2
But the Tzaangors, my god. Even though they failed to charge when they arrived, using Warp Time (in the next turn) and a fight twice Strat, I couldn't do a thing against them while the Knights were still alive. I just didn't have the fire power at all. The Prism might have done well, but their priority was the Knights
It also got a bit under my skin that he ended up with over twice the CPs as I did. He started with 14 and had a relic to get more on a 5+ every time I spent a CP. I only had 10 CPs and used them up FAST. 3CPs to WWP 2 units it just dumb, even if my WG managed to put a dent in a Knight with their cannons. I'll never do that again.
TL;DR, 3 Knights + a Battalion with decent Psychic defense and a good Horde shuts my list down. Had I gone first, I might have stood a chance, but it still would have been an uphill battle.
I just got hit with similar. A dominus and 2 armiger's along with a battalion of Ad Mech led by 2 magos dominus? + Dunecrawler. I didn't even get my 2nd turn. House Raven knight's are fast and deadly.
I had an Alaitoc battallion of 2x5 rangers and 1x5 Avengers, farseer, autarch w/ wings, WK, which got speared on overwatch, WG in webway, Only 5 reapers though and a crimson hunter which died with the first shots of the game.
I'm at a total loss on how to beat it with my current collection.
I think Eldar need big units of Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters/Exarchs currently to deal with Knights, while then having enough units on the table to win the mission.
If you tag a Knight in combat with a unit of 9 spears and wrap the Knight, then it can’t fall back. Granted, the spears are going to need protect and fortune on them to survive until your next turn, but, it can be done.
The CHEs provide a decent amount of fire power, but, the downside is number of shots and only wounding on 4’s.
Alternatively, you can run Wraithguard with cannons or scythes to nuke a Knight from the webway/wave serpent, or, fall back on taking 30 dark reapers lol.
It sucks for Eldar right now vs Knights imo, unless you go for very specific builds. Mainly capping out at str 8 hurts. It is incredibly hard to take a list to deal with both hordes and Knights right now.
I think Eldar need big units of Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters/Exarchs currently to deal with Knights, while then having enough units on the table to win the mission.
If you tag a Knight in combat with a unit of 9 spears and wrap the Knight, then it can’t fall back. Granted, the spears are going to need protect and fortune on them to survive until your next turn, but, it can be done.
The CHEs provide a decent amount of fire power, but, the downside is number of shots and only wounding on 4’s.
Alternatively, you can run Wraithguard with cannons or scythes to nuke a Knight from the webway/wave serpent, or, fall back on taking 30 dark reapers lol.
It sucks for Eldar right now vs Knights imo, unless you go for very specific builds. Mainly capping out at str 8 hurts. It is incredibly hard to take a list to deal with both hordes and Knights right now.
I'm really struggling to see how you came to this conclusion. Eldar have to be one of the best armies at taking out single large models like knights. We have so many options for doing so: Spears, Reapers, Hemlocks, Hunters, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Smite spam. Even shuriken weapons and rangers can plink wounds off. Much more important than our unit strength (which is substantial) is that jinx and doom are the best powers in the game against targets just like knights. Honestly, knights are a match up I'm excited for in tournaments since I know I have more than enough tools to deal with them.
I think Eldar need big units of Shining Spears and Crimson Hunters/Exarchs currently to deal with Knights, while then having enough units on the table to win the mission.
If you tag a Knight in combat with a unit of 9 spears and wrap the Knight, then it can’t fall back. Granted, the spears are going to need protect and fortune on them to survive until your next turn, but, it can be done.
The CHEs provide a decent amount of fire power, but, the downside is number of shots and only wounding on 4’s.
Alternatively, you can run Wraithguard with cannons or scythes to nuke a Knight from the webway/wave serpent, or, fall back on taking 30 dark reapers lol.
It sucks for Eldar right now vs Knights imo, unless you go for very specific builds. Mainly capping out at str 8 hurts. It is incredibly hard to take a list to deal with both hordes and Knights right now.
I'm really struggling to see how you came to this conclusion. Eldar have to be one of the best armies at taking out single large models like knights. We have so many options for doing so: Spears, Reapers, Hemlocks, Hunters, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Smite spam. Even shuriken weapons and rangers can plink wounds off. Much more important than our unit strength (which is substantial) is that jinx and doom are the best powers in the game against targets just like knights. Honestly, knights are a match up I'm excited for in tournaments since I know I have more than enough tools to deal with them.
I agree that Eldar have plenty of units to take down Knights, but, they need to take down 4 Knights and 50+ Guardsmen.
Shining Spears are going to need either Quicken or to be dropped in the webway hoping to make their charge. They will also need Doom to be successfully cast on their chosen target. So, we are looking at least 446 points and 2 successful psychic tests, to do 18.315 wounds to a Knight (depending on the spears taking no losses from overwatch). The Spears likely then die before they do to do anything else.
Reapers are fantastic, but, the moment they drop out of their Serpent into LoS to fire, even with guide and doom 10 Reapers are looking at doing 10 damage. That is 450 points (594 if you include a spirit stone Wave Serpent) for that, and 2 successful psychic tests. You can then potentially fire and fade back out of LoS where possible, but, it might not be. Also costs a CP, and, if you can’t get back out of LoS, then the Reapers certainly die before they get to shoot again.
So, right now, for 2 Alpha units to deal with Knights we are looking at up to 930 points just to kill a Knight that has a 4++ vs shooting.
A couple of Hemlocks for flamer goodness and Jinx will give another 7.111 damage on a Knight, or 9.481 with Jinx, for 420 points. So, we are at 1450 points to kill 1.5 Knights on the initial alpha strike.
5 Fire Dragons is another 267 points with their Wave Serpent, for another 5.587 damage on a non Jinxed Knight. (This is also with Doom on – as the Dragons will be the “second wave”)
So, 1717 points so far.
Add in the required 3 units of Rangers for CP. 1897 points. You then have 103 points to spend on whatever you want. Maybe an Autarch for your WL and CP regen.
The point is, as much as it will work against a single Knight or 2, it isn’t going to be able to deal with 3 Knights, 2 Armigers and 50 obsec Guardsmen over the course of an ITC game. Everything depends on you getting 1st turn, getting the powers cast and then hoping you can kill a 2nd Knight turn 1 without Doom or Jinx cast on it.
Without Fortune and Protect, the Spears are going to quickly get removed after they suicide forward, and, the Reapers 100% depends on being out of LoS (even then, if the Guard have mortars or the Knights Ironstorm pods, then you’re still going to lose a couple a turn potentially). And then the Fire Dragons require a Wave Serpent.
Sure, you could replace the Fire Dragons and Wave Serpent for a Webway unit of 6 or 7 Wraithguard with Cannons, but, you then have the issue of them likely not being in range to even fire on the Knights after they arrive, due to screening. Likewise, with smite spam. You’re only going to be hitting screens with it, or not actually be casting it due to requiring the casts to be used on buffs and de-buffs.
The Knight part of my list, of 2 Crusaders, a Gallant and 2 Helverins will happily kill the unit of Spears, a couple of Reapers out of LoS and 1 Hemlock in a turn with relative ease, before charging into any unit of Rangers put in the centre of the table on objectives. If I end up going first, and it’s vs Alaitoc, it’ll be harder (though, I can ignore to hit modifers with 1 Knight), but it’d be still reasonably confident of doing the same. I wouldn’t even have to worry about the Wave Serpents, because I know that eventually you’re going to need to get the units out of them to stand a chance of doing anything to me.
On the flip side, the Craftworlds list I took to an event in Jan, built around 12 spears and 2 hemlocks, would likely completely fold after turn 1, as it wouldn’t have the sustained damage to kill the amount it needs to kill.
Ynnari, will, of course, swing it slightly with the Spears potentially getting to move into a better position to charge and the Reapers getting to shoot a 2nd time, but, it still isn’t putting out the reliable dmgimo – especially when you consider, that some Knights are going to have a 3++ vs shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ovechkin8 wrote: Competitive or pipe dream : thoughts of running 2 autarchs in 2000 pt list?
Rationale:
always run autarch warlord for the potential CP recovery
That autarch is best on bike with lance and fusion
The problem is that it exposes your warlord and forces you to either think carefully with movement t or expend resources via CP or psychic
Idea is you get this guy non-warlord. Get warlord with Reaper launcher and mark of hunter to stay back and snipe
Running 2, is possible, especially if you're running a gun line and then blobs of Shining Spears imo. The Spears will provide a little screening for the Autarch, while, the 2nd one, can just be on foot handing out re-roll 1's to the gunline and farming cp.
So you are saying the only way to beat knights is to remove 2 on the alpha strike?
No sarcasm, but do you find much point in playing the game? Or do you just compare lists and roll to see who goes first?
I’m speaking more from a competitive pov that a sit down and play view. Don’t get me wrong, I would happily play a game with my normal Eldar vs several Knights, as I’d enjoy the challenge of trying to beat them, but, I thought we were talking about things from a competitive point of view and I was just giving my opinions on why I don’t think Eldar can deal with Knights as well as others have said.
Knights can be beaten in other ways, and Eldar can do it, but, that would require a completely different list imo and wouldn’t be about trying to kill the Knights. We were just discussing if they were to use their units that are on paper to kill Knights, how effective would it actually be. You then also have to consider how that list would then compare vs other more standard lists or other skew soup lists.
I do do a fair amount of analysis and planning for events that I go to – it’s just my curiosity being peaked by what others are taking and what I can do vs them. But, usually when people start having a discussion on dakka about “what is good” etc, it is often taken from a 1 turn wonder math hammer approach, whereas I try to take the approach of “well, what happens after the alpha strike?”
Debating lists on the net is completely different to playing the game. It’s becoming a big part of the “pre-game”, but, until the game is physically played then anything can happen. Talking about lists and units can be interesting and fun, in a way, as it is one of the ways you can learn and “theory craft” new ideas. The real fun and test comes though, when you use the list.
If you can kill a knight a turn you're normally in a good spot to win the game. Knight shooting is good, but its also limited; with Alaitoc and LFR I've found I can usually keep alive what needs to survive. If you kill one a turn their damage drops harshly, the game can snowball in the Eldar's favor very quickly.
I believe only one Knight can get a 4++ which requires a stratagem. Unless I am wrong, it should be pretty easy to do a feint, and cause your opponent to pop that stratagem on a knight, then shift fire to a different knight. Take a Twin Blight Lance Wave Serpent, with 10 Reapers inside, and use the BL to force the stratagem. Once it is used, just have your reapers target the a different knight. With Alaitoc, reducing knights to their second or third tier can vastly reduce their firepower. While it isn't as efficient as killing one, its better than nothing.
Here is a list that with a few tweaks, I think would stand up just fine against an all knight list.
mokoshkana wrote: I believe only one Knight can get a 4++ which requires a stratagem. Unless I am wrong, it should be pretty easy to do a feint, and cause your opponent to pop that stratagem on a knight, then shift fire to a different knight. Take a Twin Blight Lance Wave Serpent, with 10 Reapers inside, and use the BL to force the stratagem. Once it is used, just have your reapers target the a different knight. With Alaitoc, reducing knights to their second or third tier can vastly reduce their firepower. While it isn't as efficient as killing one, its better than nothing.
My issue is that it is very obvious which Knight is going to be focused on due to casting Jinx. Taking the 5++ and making it a 6 makes it much easier to take down. But if it gets bump back to 5++, it ends up not mattering which Knight I shoot.
One potential solution is to Jinx Knight A, and Doom Knight B. The have something like a Crismson Hunter or Twinlance Serpent shoot at Knight B. If he then burns the strat to give Knight B a 4++, you then move on to Link Fire your 3 Prism to kill Knight A. The problem is that a good player with knowledge of what Eldar can do will see the bait and burn the strat only when the Prisms declare a target. But either way, Rotate Ion shields may as well be "1CP to ignore Jinx or Doom"
mokoshkana wrote: I believe only one Knight can get a 4++ which requires a stratagem. Unless I am wrong, it should be pretty easy to do a feint, and cause your opponent to pop that stratagem on a knight, then shift fire to a different knight. Take a Twin Blight Lance Wave Serpent, with 10 Reapers inside, and use the BL to force the stratagem. Once it is used, just have your reapers target the a different knight. With Alaitoc, reducing knights to their second or third tier can vastly reduce their firepower. While it isn't as efficient as killing one, its better than nothing.
My issue is that it is very obvious which Knight is going to be focused on due to casting Jinx. Taking the 5++ and making it a 6 makes it much easier to take down. But if it gets bump back to 5++, it ends up not mattering which Knight I shoot.
One potential solution is to Jinx Knight A, and Doom Knight B. The have something like a Crismson Hunter or Twinlance Serpent shoot at Knight B. If he then burns the strat to give Knight B a 4++, you then move on to Link Fire your 3 Prism to kill Knight A.
The problem is that a good player with knowledge of what Eldar can do will see the bait and burn the strat only when the Prisms declare a target.
But either way, Rotate Ion shields may as well be "1CP to ignore Jinx or Doom"
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Of course also taking in consideration our powers work properly and when we need it. I had so many bad experiences when the dice are against me and they say no powers going off this phase.
I often field 2x flyers in my matches (being playing fast strike lists with bikes and transports) and i found that the Phoenix bomber from FW can be a decent all around flyers with both AT and anti horde weapons. also a proper Restrain when fielding 2x Hemlocks can give just enough time to get the job well done.
But either way, Rotate Ion shields may as well be "1CP to ignore Jinx or Doom"
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And if they ever fix Imperium CP farming, this will still be good. Making someone spend a non-renewable resource on defense to counter a renewable resource should be a gain.
Unfortunately, command points are renewable for Imperium.
One point for discussion surrounding the use of Ion shield (and other similar stratagems) that was brought in my group:
The steps to target enemy unit(s) with shooting are as follows according to the BRB:
1. Choose unit to shoot with
2. Choose Target(s)
3. Choose Ranged weapon
Rotate Ion Shields should be used at step 2 according to my reading. Note this is before you choose what weapons you want to use against what targets.
So if you have say, a unit of 10 Reapers, you could declare
shooting against 2 different Knights, forcing your opponent to pick one to use the stratagem on. Then you simply have 1 Reaper shoot at the Knight who has the +1 invuln, and the other 9 select the vulnerable knight as your target.
Doesn't really work well with Fire Prisms of course, but there are plenty of other units that can use this to try and bait your opponents stratagem out on the wrong Knight. Bascially anything with more than one gun.
Of course the shoe is also on the other foot next turn, and you might find this being used against you to bait out Lightning Reflexes
Ordana wrote: Models chose a target in 8th, not units.
So your not saying "this unit shoots at X and Y"
its "These models shoot at X, these shoot at Y"
So Rotate Ion shields is when he knows who is shooting at what. Just not what gun you will be using.
Wording seems to indicate otherwise, I've picked out the key action sentences in bold and paraphrased rather than just post the whole rule:
2. Choose targets
"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within range of the weapon being used and visible". The conditions for a target to be chosen are decided per model (range and LOS), but as long as they meet this requirement you can select them at this stage.
Now the stratagem must be used as the knight has been targeted.
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
"...declare how you will split the units shots before any dice are rolled." Now we choose to divvy up the attacks per model and/or per weapon as applicable. "if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same target, or different targets as you choose". So now is when we pick targets per model, out of those delcared in the previous step.
Just using the Reapers as a theoretical example. Either way it would definitely work for a single model, was thinking of my Scorpion, which has an auxiliary heavy weapon alongside its Twin Pulsars.
I played 3 Falcons for the lulz. Surprisingly I returned ~80% or more of their points before everything died to Shadowsword (easily serpent + 1/2 any other tank a turn) + 7 LR, although with some help from characters. Pulse laser is neat, 4 saves failed, 12 damage.
Falcons do need at least 5++ for some movement/rule like holofields from FW or ability to shoot pulse laser without penalty for movement or just make 1-2 extra shots from it due to some rule though.
Banshees are really wonderful for what they can do to mess up enemy shooting units with that threat range. Could probably drop 1 point maybe, but eh.
Hawks are alright, although even against preferred targets (T3, bad save), I'd add 1 more shot to their guns for Assault 5, really.
Avengers for what they are now, while threatening with rending, I'd say should cost 10 points. Unless other infantry gets increase in points across the game. They're not really bad or anything, but against 4 ppw troops, against cheap 4+ or 3+ stuff in cover, against stuff that just resurrects, against cheap stuff with invulnerable save that resurrects, and even against something cheap in cover it's a struggle already.
Warp Spiders as 3d echelon of grabbing objectives and surviving greatly in cover, -1/-2 to -3 to hit especially against armies with average BS4, are alright but would benefit from 1-2 pts decrease or 2 damage on 6s to wound.
Farseers and Autarches are mostly worth their points.
Grabbed a Warlock to fill up Brigade, casted Jinx 3 times. Failed twice with re-roll, was denied once. Terrifying Eldar Mages TM.
Artel-W posted another new design of theirs: https://pp.userapi.com/c845120/v845120720/a96cd/a8k6F3hQZsU.jpg Mostly similar to not-whatwehavenow, but for everyone who just LOVES Finecast(not) seems like nice alternative. Meaning it's time to think about painting 15 scorpions. Played Falcons already, we must. sink. deeper.
Artel-W posted another new design of theirs: https://pp.userapi.com/c845120/v845120720/a96cd/a8k6F3hQZsU.jpg Mostly similar to not-whatwehavenow, but for everyone who just LOVES Finecast(not) seems like nice alternative. Meaning it's time to think about painting 15 scorpions. Played Falcons already, we must. sink. deeper.
Looks like Predator wearing chitin armour from Morrowind
Ordana wrote: Models chose a target in 8th, not units.
So your not saying "this unit shoots at X and Y"
its "These models shoot at X, these shoot at Y"
So Rotate Ion shields is when he knows who is shooting at what. Just not what gun you will be using.
Wording seems to indicate otherwise, I've picked out the key action sentences in bold and paraphrased rather than just post the whole rule:
2. Choose targets
"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within range of the weapon being used and visible". The conditions for a target to be chosen are decided per model (range and LOS), but as long as they meet this requirement you can select them at this stage.
Now the stratagem must be used as the knight has been targeted.
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
"...declare how you will split the units shots before any dice are rolled." Now we choose to divvy up the attacks per model and/or per weapon as applicable. "if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same target, or different targets as you choose". So now is when we pick targets per model, out of those delcared in the previous step.
Just using the Reapers as a theoretical example. Either way it would definitely work for a single model, was thinking of my Scorpion, which has an auxiliary heavy weapon alongside its Twin Pulsars.
Well thats why I get for assuming the Target header talks about targets and not reading the choose weapon bit...
If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.
Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.
The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.
Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.
In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.
I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.
This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.
EDIT:
To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETCFAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).
I played a game yesterday and it did not go well for me...at all.
My opponent had 3 Renegade knights with double dakka on all of them and a TSons Battalion with Arhiman, 1 Flying Prince 2x 10 cultist and 30, yes 30, 'deepstriking' Tzaangors.
My dice completely failed me as I only got Jinx off once and my Prisms never rolled more that 2 shots on a D3 for the Focused mode and often only rolled 1. I also ran out of CPs in turn 2. Arhiman just shut down my psychic phase and the Prince had a field day against my Flyers (mostly but making me scared to go near it).
He went first and we were playing the table corners deployment, so he boxed me in early. I managed to kill 2 of the 3 Knights by turn 3, even with him consistently having either a 5++ or 4++ for rotating Ion shields and Jink either failing or being denied by Arhiman. But by then it was far too late. All the objectives were on the opposite corner and I lost too much firepower to muscle my way through.
And the Rangers I had placed on the objective kinda evaporated by turn 2
But the Tzaangors, my god. Even though they failed to charge when they arrived, using Warp Time (in the next turn) and a fight twice Strat, I couldn't do a thing against them while the Knights were still alive. I just didn't have the fire power at all. The Prism might have done well, but their priority was the Knights
It also got a bit under my skin that he ended up with over twice the CPs as I did. He started with 14 and had a relic to get more on a 5+ every time I spent a CP. I only had 10 CPs and used them up FAST. 3CPs to WWP 2 units it just dumb, even if my WG managed to put a dent in a Knight with their cannons. I'll never do that again.
TL;DR, 3 Knights + a Battalion with decent Psychic defense and a good Horde shuts my list down. Had I gone first, I might have stood a chance, but it still would have been an uphill battle.
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I know I'm a tad late pointing this out, I'm a Thousand Sons player but I'm going to be getting into Craftworld Eldar very soon so I've been reading through the Tactica to get some ideas on how to build/play. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure that your opponent was using Helm of the Third Eye (the relic that gives CP that you mentioned) correctly. It only gives you a CP on a 5+ for each stratagem that your opponent uses, not for each CP. So if you're using a stratagem that costs 3CP, I'm still only rolling for a 5+ once and only getting one CP if the roll passes.
That may be a bit of a convoluted way to describe it but I hope it's clear enough! I just felt like clarifying as you stated that "he'd get more on a 5+ every time I spent a CP."
Therion wrote: There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.
If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.
Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.
The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.
Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.
In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.
I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.
This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.
EDIT:
To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETCFAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).
Therion wrote: There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.
If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.
Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.
The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.
Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.
In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.
I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.
This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.
EDIT:
To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETCFAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).
You make it sound easy... Got any proof of that?
I went undefeated in the last two grand tournaments (both July events) with a CW/Drukhari army and played against these soups 4 times. I also did some testing against them prior to choosing my list. I chose to prioritize my list strength against Knights because everyone and their uncles and cousins are playing Knight soups right now.
And yes, it is fairly straightforward just like I explained. My strongest proof of it being straightforward is that I didn't play particularly well, I misplayed some rules and forgot to shoot with some of my units for example on more than one occasion, but still 20-0'ed every Knight soup I played against. I'm not sure if you're arguing there's a flaw in my reasoning or that it can't possibly work unless someone has done it before. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in the world who has figured out Vect, Prisms and walls of flyer bases are the answer to Knight soups. The Knight soups play around a few incredibly overpowered stratagems, and the only thing that stops them reliably is Vect.
An Archon buffs 3 Ravagers and 3 Razorwings in the opener, while Prisms buff themselves. Hemlocks autohit and Crimson Hunters can even get Guide, and against fly targets they also give themselves 'doom' for free. The actual Doom and Jinx are just icing on the cake that turn a brutal amount of firepower to a ludicrous amount of firepower. The raw numbers the Eldar can dish out is insane, and they can keep moving all over the field to spread elite forces like Adeptus Custodes and Knights thin. Custo bike lists for example are simple to wipe out since you can force them to spread their forces to all 4 corners of the table. In one match against a soup with 3 Shield Captains and 3 BA Captains and Mephiston, the first charge that I received came on turn 4.
By far my toughest matchup in July was another Eldar player with 3 CW flyers and 12 Harlie bikes and a Vect detachment, where it was obvious whoever gets the first turn would win with a wipeout. I didn't have +1 but got the first turn regardless and wiped him out. Better lucky than good.
Therion wrote: There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.
If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.
Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.
The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.
Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.
In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.
I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.
This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.
EDIT:
To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETCFAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).
You make it sound easy... Got any proof of that?
I went undefeated in the last two grand tournaments (both July events) with a CW/Drukhari army and played against these soups 4 times. I also did some testing against them prior to choosing my list. I chose to prioritize my list strength against Knights because everyone and their uncles and cousins are playing Knight soups right now.
And yes, it is fairly straightforward just like I explained. My strongest proof of it being straightforward is that I didn't play particularly well, I misplayed some rules and forgot to shoot with some of my units for example on more than one occasion, but still 20-0'ed every Knight soup I played against. I'm not sure if you're arguing there's a flaw in my reasoning or that it can't possibly work unless someone has done it before. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in the world who has figured out Vect, Prisms and walls of flyer bases are the answer to Knight soups. The Knight soups play around a few incredibly overpowered stratagems, and the only thing that stops them reliably is Vect.
An Archon buffs 3 Ravagers and 3 Razorwings in the opener, while Prisms buff themselves. Hemlocks autohit and Crimson Hunters can even get Guide, and against fly targets they also give themselves 'doom' for free. The actual Doom and Jinx are just icing on the cake that turn a brutal amount of firepower to a ludicrous amount of firepower. The raw numbers the Eldar can dish out is insane, and they can keep moving all over the field to spread elite forces like Adeptus Custodes and Knights thin. Custo bike lists for example are simple to wipe out since you can force them to spread their forces to all 4 corners of the table. In one match against a soup with 3 Shield Captains and 3 BA Captains and Mephiston, the first charge that I received came on turn 4.
By far my toughest matchup in July was another Eldar player with 3 CW flyers and 12 Harlie bikes and a Vect detachment, where it was obvious whoever gets the first turn would win with a wipeout. I didn't have +1 but got the first turn regardless and wiped him out. Better lucky than good.
Has anyone seen or played any of the forgeworld super heavy tanks, the Scorpion or Cobra? Whilst expensive they do seem to be designed to take down imperial knights.
kingheff wrote: Has anyone seen or played any of the forgeworld super heavy tanks, the Scorpion or Cobra? Whilst expensive they do seem to be designed to take down imperial knights.
Love my Scorpion, has the option to protect it off the board turn 1 with cloudstrike. Plonk it next to a Farseer and used forewarned to auto-delete any enemy deepstriker you want, and an Autarch for the all important re-roll 1's. Give it Fortune + Lightning Reflexes and Alaitoc and it becomes deceptively tough. Remember you get a 5++ from holofields on the turn you Cloudstrike onto the board (you count as moving at max normal speed). It will nearly kill a knight a turn on its own without any buffs at all, which is a pretty epic feat.
Mine is the older type-1 which is quite a tall model, but from the looks of it the newer type 2 is very low profile, so you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it 50% concealed for a cover bonus.
Only downside of course is that it needs to focus all that fire onto one target, so vs certain lists it may struggle to make its money back in time, but vs knights its perfect. The Cobra looks less appealing tbh, D6 shots is very swingy compared to the almost guaranteed overwhelming firepower of the Scorpion, and really narrows down the number of targets the weapon is effective against.
The underpriced piece of mon keigh trash costs ~500. There are also prices for lascannons & hb.
Scorpion should do more wounds due to extra wounds on '6s. You can also re-roll one dice for amount of shots. You also want Guide because if you don't move you won't get better invul. Against 5++ I think 18-24 wounds are more than possible (without Doom).
Cobra is d6 shots which is just too random and meh.
Honestly I think you will get more for your points from flyers and prisms.
The Cobra's d6 shots isn't great, always fire it first to definitely be able to re-roll I guess! Wounding on 2's, avg 7 dmg per shot and bonus mortal wounds certainly are nice though.
Cloudstrike is essential as far as I see for these guys, keeping them out of losing initative first turn fire plus the distort field bonus for the next turn should make them fairly durable, ten points for spirit stones also seems worth it.
They may not take down a knight per turn alone but with flyer and tank support it should be very doable, especially with flying movement to ignore terrain.
I'm very seriously considering a Scorpion, should be a nice centrepiece for the right army list and much more useful than a wraithknight at least!
I agree that Scorpions probably won't see much play. They are just waaaaay to expensive and likely won't be killing a Knight a turn. Which is a massive shame imo.
Therion wrote: There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.
If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.
Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.
The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.
Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.
In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.
I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.
This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.
EDIT:
To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETCFAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).
Boxing in a knight with fliers is perhaps the most armchair playing I have ever seen.
DarknessEternal wrote: Scorpions obliterate Knights. If some kind of general nerfing to Knights doesn't come, expect Scorpions to see a lot of play.
My mathHammer says that a Scorpion does :
1) an average of 12 wounds / turn to a 5++ Imperial Knight. (14 wounds if near an autarch)
2) an average of 9 wounds/ turn to a 4++ Imperial Knight (10 wounds if near an autarch)
Not that much for a 710 points investment
Astra Militarum's Shadowsword tank does an average of 18 wounds/ turn and costs only 404 points
Mathhammer says 21.4 wounds on average from the main gun alone with no buffs at all, and if you aren't buffing your Scorpion you're not using it right. Perhaps you aren't factoring the '6 damage on a wound roll of 6':
But yes the Shadowsword is woefully undercosted, no one would reasonably argue it isn't better value for points - its not available to Eldar unfortunately.
DarknessEternal wrote: Scorpions obliterate Knights. If some kind of general nerfing to Knights doesn't come, expect Scorpions to see a lot of play.
My mathHammer says that a Scorpion does :
1) an average of 12 wounds / turn to a 5++ Imperial Knight. (14 wounds if near an autarch)
2) an average of 9 wounds/ turn to a 4++ Imperial Knight (10 wounds if near an autarch)
Not that much for a 710 points investment
Astra Militarum's Shadowsword tank does an average of 18 wounds/ turn and costs only 404 points
Mathhammer says 21.4 wounds on average from the main gun alone with no buffs at all, and if you aren't buffing your Scorpion you're not using it right. Perhaps you aren't factoring the '6 damage on a wound roll of 6':
But yes the Shadowsword is woefully undercosted, no one would reasonably argue it isn't better value for points - its not available to Eldar unfortunately.
Again, though, the problem with the Scorpion and “using it right” amounts to a minimum of 885 points, once you add in Spirit stones, a Farseer and a Warlock for FNP, guide, doom and jinx.
I’d love to get myself a Scorpion, and will probably do so eventually, but, right now, it would just be a painting project more than a list’s centrepiece model.
Also, your 21.4 damage is when you don’t move. If you don’t move, you don’t get an invuln save. If you don’t get an invuln save, you’re going to die very quickly, regardless of whether or not you just killed 1 of the 4 Knights with the first shot.
Therion wrote: There’s a very real way to taking down Knights.
If they play Raven, and you get 1a, you Vect the Rotate Ion Shield. Seer Council and the re-rolls make Doom and Jinx reliable. That’s a step the Knight can avoid with better deployment, but the spells aren’t mandatory for the Eldar opener.
Against Taranis, you need to let them Rotate, and you just blast through it and Vect the Darkest Hour.
The list I used recently at a major tournament does 36,6 wounds to T8 5++ without Doom and Jinx from the vehicles and flyers. Sufficient to say, even to 4++ it’s enough for a one shot. If you get the spells off, there’s a realistic chance the first Knight pops before the Prisms even Link, so they get to put their 12 wounds of damage against a second Knight.
Gallants are just target dummies because they can be boxed in with flyers and blocked from moving. If Gallants get 1a you need to Vect the Full Tilt. The always taken BA Captains don’t really change anything, except that you need to keep moving and outranging the 24” threat range, and Vecting the Upon Wings of Fire every turn.
In short, Vect and the 6+/6+ refund, flyers and Prisms are an answer to everything.
I hope this helps anyone who is struggling in the matchup.
This isn’t to say there doesn’t exist a chain of events that will lead to an Eldar loss, but it’s most certainly Eldar favored matchup. The BA+Custo+Astra soup is the easiest, then comes the Crusaders/Gallants+BA+Astra and lastly the Castellan+BA+Astra as the most tricky one if you get a long deployment (range will be an issue so you need to wreck the infantry and BA first and leave the Knight for later.
EDIT:
To the above poster, regarding targeting: By rulebook RAW it's correct you only nominate targets, you don't designate weapons, but wherever the ETCFAQ is in effect you need to nominate at least one weapon per target when you're declaring targets. This makes Lightning-Fast Reactions and Rotate Ion Shields easy to use (you pop defensives wherever the biggest enemy gun is going).
Boxing in a knight with fliers is perhaps the most armchair playing I have ever seen.
All depends on the table and terrain, but, you’d be surprised at how easily you can force a Knight to redirect by using a flyer.
On the flip side, as I ran Mortan at the last event I went to, I wouldn’t have too many concerns, as I’d just force a Vect on Full Tilt turn 1, then on turn 2 force another Vect as I remove all the to hit penalties on the 2 fliers blocking me in and destroy them.
Those 6 CP, plus the 3 likely used to keep 3 Ravagers in reserve and the 3 spent on Vecting rotate shields means I’d likely have everything I want for the rest of the game CP wise.
It looks like the CHE does slightly more damage vs the standard vehicle statline, T7 3+sv.
Then HWF does better against T8 or T5 and anything with a -1 to hit.
HWF has spirit stones but needs to get much closer to it's target so I feel like it's less survivable.
Being a Psyker is the big benefit for the HWF and the thing that seems to justify it being 35pts more expensive. Smite makes it out damage the CHE against all targets but only if you can make the target be the closest model.
I feel like the Hemlock is a lot more reliable than the Exarch.
It just feels like the Exarch often keeps missing its target but that will not be a problem with the Hemlock.
Also the Hemlock can have Jinx which it can delivere pretty well too.
It looks like the CHE does slightly more damage vs the standard vehicle statline, T7 3+sv.
Then HWF does better against T8 or T5 and anything with a -1 to hit.
HWF has spirit stones but needs to get much closer to it's target so I feel like it's less survivable.
Being a Psyker is the big benefit for the HWF and the thing that seems to justify it being 35pts more expensive. Smite makes it out damage the CHE against all targets but only if you can make the target be the closest model.
Thoughts?
Why not both??
I love both and get at least 1 of each. The short range of the Hemlock is its only draw back but also the Crimson Hunter is excellent if near a Farseer with Forewarned. Since it has a high profile and long range it can make deepstrike opponents at least think of placement.
If it moves it needs a 3 to hit with rerolls of 1 so I find its pretty reliable and the re-rolling wounds vs things like Jump Captains and Flying Hive Tyrants can make it scary.
Hemlocks mind shock pods are great for those concentrated units of guard mortars in the back ground if you can manage to kill a few off each unit.
With vector dancer they are great at blocking off those Knight Gallants.
Ohris wrote: I feel like the Hemlock is a lot more reliable than the Exarch.
It just feels like the Exarch often keeps missing its target but that will not be a problem with the Hemlock.
Also the Hemlock can have Jinx which it can delivere pretty well too.
Also the Hemlock pretty much ignores the decaying profile due always autohiting with his weapons.
In every Ynnari tournament list I see, there's always one detachment where all the units have different craftworlds associated with them, and I don't understand why. The FAQ says that while it counts as a CW detachment for the purposes of stratagems and relics, they don't gain any craftworld bonuses.
In every Ynnari tournament list I see, there's always one detachment where all the units have different craftworlds associated with them, and I don't understand why. The FAQ says that while it counts as a CW detachment for the purposes of stratagems and relics, they don't gain any craftworld bonuses.
So like why do the lists show that?
Because while you dont get the craftworld trait bonus you can still use the craftworld specific stratagems on them.
That makes sense, but there's one list in particular that had Rangers and Dark Reapers under Ulthwe, and the only stratagem that specifies Ulthwe can only target Guardians. It also has a Spiritseer as Biel-tan, and the Biel-tan stratagem gives you bonus to charging, and I have no idea why you'd run a Spiritseer into melee w/o any Wraiths for it to buff.
Kizuke21 wrote: That makes sense, but there's one list in particular that had Rangers and Dark Reapers under Ulthwe, and the only stratagem that specifies Ulthwe can only target Guardians. It also has a Spiritseer as Biel-tan, and the Biel-tan stratagem gives you bonus to charging, and I have no idea why you'd run a Spiritseer into melee w/o any Wraiths for it to buff.
Depends on if there was a pure Ulthwe detachment as part of the army that contained a Wave Serpent. If so, the Dark Reapers in the Ynnari detachment would then be able to start the game embarked inside the Wave Serpent as it only requires the “Ulthwe” keyword.
As for the Rangers, I’m guessing it’d have been nothing more than personal choice and fit with the rest of the army.
Kizuke21 wrote: That makes sense, but there's one list in particular that had Rangers and Dark Reapers under Ulthwe, and the only stratagem that specifies Ulthwe can only target Guardians. It also has a Spiritseer as Biel-tan, and the Biel-tan stratagem gives you bonus to charging, and I have no idea why you'd run a Spiritseer into melee w/o any Wraiths for it to buff.
Hmm rangers and reapers as Ulthwe it's odd they can use the Keyword to board vehicles from another Detachment .
The Spiritseer choice is fairly easy since our warlocks got nerfed into gak units this edition only the spiritseer and Warlock Skyrunner are often worth running in competitive (either for normal smite or council stratagem) and biel-tan keyword allow to give them The spirit Stone of Anath'lan to re-roll psy powers.
I'm currently trying to put a Ynnari list together to take advantage of multiple craftworld specific stratagems (also because I want to use my Yncarne).
I'm not seeing a lot of use for Beil tan and Ilyanden but I've got Saim Hann Shining Spears for the advance + charge strat, 20 Ulthwe Guarians to Webway in and use the +1 to hit Strat, and Alaitoc Rangers for the 6's to hit strat.
The Alaitoc one is pretty crap but I have a cunning plan (maybe). I'll infiltrate 2x 5 Rangers on top of each other right in front of the enemy. If my opponent kills one unit, I'll bring in the Yncarne in it's place so that it is screened by the other unit, then play the 6's to hit strat on them.
This could be a good way to get the Yncarne within 12" of the enemy right off the bat. However, I'm wondering if the Yncarnes funky deployment rules allow it to ignore the FAQ rule about not deepstriking outside of your deployment zone on turn 1. Thoughts?
Edit: Should have put that in YMDC really. I found an old thread there that discussed it, and it looks like it's a no. Oddly though it seems like "as close as possible" to the unit that died could be in your own deployment zone if it's turn 1, even if a unit died in your opponents DZ lol.
FarseerReborn wrote: Anything in the new Space Wolves Codex that can seriously threaten us Aeldari?
They have a similar “intercept” stratagem, but with a -1 to hit.
But, they also have a stratagem to ignore to hit penalties.
They also have an “outflank” stratagem that can be used as many times as they want during deployment so have options to get to the backlines on turn 2 if you don’t screen properly.
Can get an 3++ death ball rolling relatively easy, but it’ll be points expensive.
Beyond that, Wolves will be like normal Marines relying on Guard etc for CP farms and probably other Marines for normal Scouts.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm currently trying to put a Ynnari list together to take advantage of multiple craftworld specific stratagems (also because I want to use my Yncarne).
I'm not seeing a lot of use for Beil tan and Ilyanden but I've got Saim Hann Shining Spears for the advance + charge strat, 20 Ulthwe Guarians to Webway in and use the +1 to hit Strat, and Alaitoc Rangers for the 6's to hit strat.
The Alaitoc one is pretty crap but I have a cunning plan (maybe). I'll infiltrate 2x 5 Rangers on top of each other right in front of the enemy. If my opponent kills one unit, I'll bring in the Yncarne in it's place so that it is screened by the other unit, then play the 6's to hit strat on them.
This could be a good way to get the Yncarne within 12" of the enemy right off the bat. However, I'm wondering if the Yncarnes funky deployment rules allow it to ignore the FAQ rule about not deepstriking outside of your deployment zone on turn 1. Thoughts?
Edit: Should have put that in YMDC really. I found an old thread there that discussed it, and it looks like it's a no. Oddly though it seems like "as close as possible" to the unit that died could be in your own deployment zone if it's turn 1, even if a unit died in your opponents DZ lol.
Court of the Young King is handy if you have a 2nd unit of Spears, as while its not as good as the Saim Hann one plus 2" and reroll 1's is handy, or on Banshee's or Scorpions if you've recently taken a blow to the head
Court of the Young King is handy if you have a 2nd unit of Spears, as while its not as good as the Saim Hann one plus 2" and reroll 1's is handy, or on Banshee's or Scorpions if you've recently taken a blow to the head
Well I'm taking the Yncarne so a blow to the head might explain that. I actually quite like banshees for a turn 1 charge out of a Wave Serpent (~25" average charge range), I've caught people out doing that then surrounding a model to prevent fall back. I feel like the rest of the list needs to be serious business to make up for Yncarne though.
Are tri cannon serpents pretty much the only way to go or is there a case to be made for something like BL+Crystal Targeting Matrix?
Assuming you have 4 would a 2 and 2 split be effective or just not points worthy?
Tri-cannon Serpents are the go-to option in my opinion but not the only option. A lot depends on what other units you are running your army. You will need some decent anti-tank so if you are not packing that with other units, Wave Serpents are as good a place to put it as any.
Given the choice I prefer to bring heavier weapons in the form of things like Fire Prisms, Dark Reapers and aircraft. These units do not have to worry about compromising their firepower by getting the squads inside into specific positions. Tri-cannon Serpents can move and fire normally or Advance and still shoot which often comes in handy.
So the answer for me is that 3 Cannons is the best all-round option on a Serpent but you should feel free to experiment if you are building an army that relies on Serpents for heavier firepower for some reason.
Has anyone run Bonesingers along with Wraithlords or Vehicles? Do they bracket up units usefully or do they never really help enough to justify inclusion? Was thinking 2 brackets spared on WL or Fireprisms would be worth it, but not sure if I'm fooling myself because i love the model.
I included one once as a way to fill out the last elite slot on a brigade. He fixed a couple of wounds on a Fire prism the first turn, and just used smite afterwards. If it were a cut throat game I would have preferred another Spiritseer generally, with the option to take another power.
If they were a little bit cheaper or could repair in addition to smite, then they might be worth looking at. Depends on how competitive youre aiming for. At least the repair effect is reliable.
I've got a plan to use some of my old rogue trader Eldar models as corsairs, possibly converting them to jump pack dudes.
My question is how, if it's possible, do they fit into a craftworld detatchments? They have the Aeldari keyword so can they be used as troops in a craftworlds mixed detachment or do they have to go into their own detatchments?
My question is how, if it's possible, do they fit into a craftworld detatchments? They have the Aeldari keyword so can they be used as troops in a craftworlds mixed detachment or do they have to go into their own detatchments?
They would need their own detachments. <AELDARI> isn't enough, you need <CRAFTWORLD> to fit into a Craftworld detachment. Its the same reason you can't drop Drukhari or Harlies into a Craftworld detachment.
Basically, outside of a Ynarri pod, you can't actually use Corsairs in matched play scenarios because they don't have any HQs.
My question is how, if it's possible, do they fit into a craftworld detatchments? They have the Aeldari keyword so can they be used as troops in a craftworlds mixed detachment or do they have to go into their own detatchments?
They would need their own detachments. <AELDARI> isn't enough, you need <CRAFTWORLD> to fit into a Craftworld detachment. Its the same reason you can't drop Drukhari or Harlies into a Craftworld detachment.
Basically, outside of a Ynarri pod, you can't actually use Corsairs in matched play scenarios because they don't have any HQs.
Sorry for the late reply, been away from my computer.
I figured Ynarri might be the only option, guess I'll have to pick up cat lady at some point then.
Edit:
This list cause against an IK with 4++ but without Doom/Jinx ca. 30 unsaved damage. But is this enough for a game?
Welcome! From memory dissies work better than lances against knights but I could be wrong. I'd probably go an autarch with reaper launcher over the second farseer, but yeah up to you.
Overall the real issue is that while this will destroy mono-knights, most knights soup up to plug holes and against the likes of custodes or guard soup you'll probably have some difficulty, especially with CP. Bringing the DE up to battalion strength lets you use agents of vect more often which will 100% help, as will an autarch.
Edit:
This list cause against an IK with 4++ but without Doom/Jinx ca. 30 unsaved damage. But is this enough for a game?
Welcome! From memory dissies work better than lances against knights but I could be wrong. I'd probably go an autarch with reaper launcher over the second farseer, but yeah up to you.
Overall the real issue is that while this will destroy mono-knights, most knights soup up to plug holes and against the likes of custodes or guard soup you'll probably have some difficulty, especially with CP. Bringing the DE up to battalion strength lets you use agents of vect more often which will 100% help, as will an autarch.
I'm not a DE player, just some food for thought.
Thanks for answering.
Unfortunatly my Ravagers doesn't have dissies only lances. :/
Have updated the list do bring an DE battalion. Looks like now:
Is your group that militantly WYSIWYG that you can't just play them as dissie Ravagers?
Also, see what you can do to free up enough points to go triples on the Prisms. If you're sniping out Knights, you need Linked Fire, but with only two you're unable to use it after only a single casualty.
Amusingly enough my personal favorite anti-horde unit in the Craftworld armory is the Fire Prism. 2d6 shots at S6 AP-3 just burns through blobs.
Though if you're worried you dont have enough you could swap one of the Hemlocks for a second Razorwing and use the points saving for another shuricannon War Walker.
I am not sure exactly when the Craftworlds codex came out, but I was looking to expand my force with some good choices that hopefully won't get significantly worse when the next index comes out
I have the following:
20 Dire Avengers
10 Guardians + 1 Support item
6 Swooping Hawks
3 Wind Riders
5 Wraith Guard
1 Wraith Lord
1 Wraith Knight
4 Serpents
Far seer on foot
Far seer on bike
Spirit Seer on foot
Warlock on bike
I was thinking about some Fire Prisms and maybe a flyer? But I think these are "too good" currently and might be on the block to get nerfed into the ground next index.
I also want to hold off on buying Reapers and rangers since they are crappy finecast, I think.
Any ideas on next purchases would be most welcome!
If you're looking at Rangers and Reapers, consider using the AoS wood elf units as starting points for conversions. Glade Guard and Eternal Guard are fantastic plastic bases to build from.
Shuriken rifles from Avenger kits, or even slightly modified splinter rifles from Kabalite kits work for the Rangers, while heavy weapon bits from say Scourges or Kabalite kits work for the Reapers. Flavor with your particular head type (between the Glad/Eternal kits you get four different headgear configurations) and you're off to the races with some simple kitbashing.
I am not sure exactly when the Craftworlds codex came out, but I was looking to expand my force with some good choices that hopefully won't get significantly worse when the next index comes out
I have the following:
20 Dire Avengers
10 Guardians + 1 Support item
6 Swooping Hawks
3 Wind Riders
5 Wraith Guard
1 Wraith Lord
1 Wraith Knight
4 Serpents
Far seer on foot
Far seer on bike
Spirit Seer on foot
Warlock on bike
I was thinking about some Fire Prisms and maybe a flyer? But I think these are "too good" currently and might be on the block to get nerfed into the ground next index.
I also want to hold off on buying Reapers and rangers since they are crappy finecast, I think.
Any ideas on next purchases would be most welcome!
Thanks,
Strig
I don’t think that Prisms are so good that they are going to get a hard nerf next time they get reviewed. The flyers might, and the Hemlock is probably more vulnerable to that then the CH.
Right now expanding Eldar without going finecast is a hard path to tread. You’ve got a solid core force. What plastic kits are you missing? War walkers, support batteries, tanks and flyers? Honestly, if I were you I’d go with your gut and get the prism/flyer you desire. Both are solid now, and even with a light nerf would still be worth fielding.
Eldar codex balancing revolves around spinning the wheel and getting 3 overpowered units for the current book. Everything else might be fine and balanced, but pales to the OP cheese. Don’t bother trying to guess what’s going to be the hotness in the next book; no real way to predict. Pick units you like and hope for the best. At least then, you will be happy with your army, even if it’s not top-table competitive.
@Sterling - I really like that idea about kit-bashing some stuff! I have historically not been a strong painter, but recently have been watching a lot of Warhammer TV videos and it has helped a lot. Kitbashing seems like next thing I should try to "level up".
I will try to bash together a Ranger and Dark Reaper unit see how it goes.
@Nevelon - You are correct!
I am still kind of gun shy since I had built and painted an entire Decent of Angels BA army (about 65 jump pack models) back in 5th and loved playing it - then 6th edition invalidated that mode. Really want to avoid something like that with Craftworlds.
Anyone have thoughts on how much life expectancy the current CraftWorld codex has? maybe another 10 months? year and half?
@Sterling - I really like that idea about kit-bashing some stuff! I have historically not been a strong painter, but recently have been watching a lot of Warhammer TV videos and it has helped a lot. Kitbashing seems like next thing I should try to "level up".
I will try to bash together a Ranger and Dark Reaper unit see how it goes.
The Glade/Eternal guard have a bit more flowyness to their clothing than the solidly armored aspect warriors, but they're still pretty chunky so IMO they're not that much harder to paint. Also remember, just because the AoS unit has skin showing in an area, doesnt mean that you need to have skin showing there. The details in most cases are fine enough that a coherent "armored" paint scheme can be used to minimize needing to do things like small exposed arms or wrists for instance without it being obvious that there was supposed to be exposed skin.
Also, a word of warning for when you start bashing. The torso width between the two series is ever so slightly different, so if you're using parts that are holding a weapon in two hands (like a rifle for instance) there may be a little wonkyness in how the bits fit together. Don't be afraid to be generous with your glue, and remember that if there are gaps you can always come back later with small patches of green stuff to fill those in.
Anyone have thoughts on how much life expectancy the current CraftWorld codex has? maybe another 10 months? year and half?
Thanks!
Chapter Approved will likely tweak it a bit here and there, but it should last until the next edition, fingers crossed. 7th was released in 2014 so that's a decent chunk of time tbh.
Anyone have thoughts on how much life expectancy the current CraftWorld codex has? maybe another 10 months? year and half?
Thanks!
Chapter Approved will likely tweak it a bit here and there, but it should last until the next edition, fingers crossed. 7th was released in 2014 so that's a decent chunk of time tbh.
The rule of thumb used to be 4-5 years an edition. Then came 6th with it’s 2 years. So that’s not hard rule. GW is also just about done cranking out major codexes for 8th. What they do from here is unknown. The edition/codex cycle got some players buying a new book every 4-8 years. Chapter Approved gets everyone buying a book every year. GW willing to ride that for a while until things need an overhaul? Who knows.
Eldar is a rough army to weather the editions with. What’s hot and what’s not swings wildly. Not only due to poor internal consistency (we always have a few OP units), but as an army of specialists, we are sensitive to changes in the core rules.
Rules come and go. Models endure. Build the army you like, and add more units as needed to keep up with the current rules. Sometimes units might need to spend an edition on the shelf collecting dust due to crappy rules. It helps to stick with the fluff, but is not a guarantee. GW is more likely to support armies that fit to the core of the faction then odd corner cases.
Pretty much the best unit in the Codex, arguably Reapers are better but as a self sufficient unit its hard to beat, a pair of them can spank pretty much anything shy of Superheavys
Anyone played Shadow Spectres recently? Was perusing the unit listing looking for a self-sufficient ranged unit I can put mid-blob with a Coven pod to prevent them from being fully kited and they stood out.
I'm just a little unsure of how efficacious their main weapon is without reroll support. For 33 points apiece thats pretty pricey.
Honestly, they might be more worth their points soon, if some units like IG, Castellan, etc.. goes up in points, or if more fundamental game changes happen to CP farming etc..
Currently they are fine in semi-comp, but i would take them to
a GT, they still have really good profiles, they just die to easily.
They are quite efficient, been using them from time to time (mostly a 6 man unit with no exarch ) and even without re-rolls they can put quite a decent firepower with the long range profile.
Not truly competitive but can pull their weight if used properly they are sligthy worse for points efficiency than Dark reapers and Shinning spears. (they was almost top unit before the point hike)
Also worth to remember they natural -1 plus Alaitoc and ligthing reflexes should they be in a tight spot gave them a quite efficient survival rate.
Currently they are fine in semi-comp, but i would take them to
a GT, they still have really good profiles, they just die to easily.
Im sticking to the FLGS tier of play for the time being. We've only got one guy with a meta-ish list, and even he tends to rotate that out for other stuff for funsies.
Also worth to remember they natural -1 plus Alaitoc and ligthing reflexes should they be in a tight spot gave them a quite efficient survival rate.
Yeah, the idea was to put them behind the front line of Wracks to use their height, size and innate hard to hitness as a way to keep fire off of Grots and Taloses (plus a few HQs) while they close in, while still having some real possibility to shoot back. I'm seriously considering investing in a Conceal Warlock to bolster that role for a -3 base, and -4 with LFR against really good shooting.
The more you buff them, the less they'll soak fire. If you're really trying to distract the opponent, you'll see diminishing returns on further penalties to hit.
If you have a -2-to-hit, an enemy Guardsman squad is not likely to do much more damage shooting at them than shooting at Grots or Taloses (once you consider positioning and range). Whichever they shoot, the Guardsmen are going to do just about as much.
At -3 to-hit, those Guardsmen are going to shoot at the Grots or wahtever, and do just as much damage as they would have if the Spectres had a -2.
At -4 to-hit, same story.
Now, if your goal is to keep them alive, and have the opponent shoot your other targets instead, then stacking it beyond -2 might help. But if you've already gotten them to the point where your opponent is no better off shooting them than something else, further to-hit penalties don't help.
Bharring wrote: The more you buff them, the less they'll soak fire. If you're really trying to distract the opponent, you'll see diminishing returns on further penalties to hit.
If you have a -2-to-hit, an enemy Guardsman squad is not likely to do much more damage shooting at them than shooting at Grots or Taloses (once you consider positioning and range). Whichever they shoot, the Guardsmen are going to do just about as much.
At -3 to-hit, those Guardsmen are going to shoot at the Grots or wahtever, and do just as much damage as they would have if the Spectres had a -2.
At -4 to-hit, same story.
Now, if your goal is to keep them alive, and have the opponent shoot your other targets instead, then stacking it beyond -2 might help. But if you've already gotten them to the point where your opponent is no better off shooting them than something else, further to-hit penalties don't help.
The primary intent is to use them, alongside Wracks, as literal meat shields. Use positioning such that the "payload" of whatever I'm trying to deliver (initially Grots + Taloi, but may adapt to other shenanigans if this actually works in the future) in the LOS-blocked area directly behind them.
If I do it right either the enemy has to reposition to shoot around, potentially leaving cover, or fire solely on stuff that's hard to hurt.
Looking for some advice about buying the Craftworlds Start Collecting box. Are the units at all useable? Seems like a cool selection, but I don't want mediocre units. Thanks all.
The current box comes with, and correct me if I'm wrong here, a Farseer, a War Walker, a Wraithlord and a 5-pack of Wraithguard / Wraithblades yes?
The Farseer is pretty much a mandatory inclusion for any Eldar list (soup or otherwise). It's pricey points wise, but its powers are incredibly potent force multipliers. Doom is one third of the CWE anti-Knight combo.
The War Walker is serviceable, albeit not exactly the hotness right now. I'm personally fiddling with a list that puts seven to eight on the board, but it's entirely a "let's see what happens" thing for cool factor, and not remotely a competitive choice.
Ditto for the Wraithlord. It's got a solid stat line, but for two glaring exceptions: it cant take a CTM to mitigate the accuracy penalty for firing its heavy weapons, and it lacks an invulnerable save.
Wraithguard can be used for some very potent Webway strikes, but they're largely a one-trick pony. Wraithblades are entirely outclassed by Drukhari Grotesques.
Farseer is a great hq, capable of offensive and defensive buffs as well as mortal wound output.
The wraithguards/guards are very strong but are expensive and require a delivery system, usually a wave serpent or webway strike. I prefer the blades in a serpent and the guard from the webway.
The warwalker is decent enough, it's fast, cheap and has an invulnerable save. I like the twin star cannon load out for elites hunting and have taken two in a unit for 160 pts which really isn't bad because they'll rarely attract major firepower assuming you've got juicier targets.
The wraithlord gets some stick from people but it can be a very awkward unit for your opponent. I tend to go for the twin shuriken cannons and twin shuriken catapults for 123 pts and advance him up the field, usually with dire avengers in tow. Like the warwalker it's not usually a priority target assuming you've got tanks and the like. But the guns give you decent anti infantry fire and nice melee damage output with four strength seven flat three damage with his fists.
So overall I think the start collecting box is pretty decent, it may not contain the top units according to the meta but you get decent options and if you combine it with the eldar half of the wake dead box set you don't really have to add much to make a very useable army.
So overall I think the start collecting box is pretty decent, it may not contain the top units according to the meta but you get decent options and if you combine it with the eldar half of the wake dead box set you don't really have to add much to make a very useable army.
Just a rough list in battlescribe makes for around 1,000 point army with the SC and WtD boxes. A little over 1k as I was clicking gear, but you could probably drop something or take cheeper options to get under. Reasonably well balanced force. Good mix of firepower and mobility, nice support. Drawback is lack of CPs. Only detachment that’s going to fit is a patrol. But pick up 2 more troops and you are a battalion. Pick up one more elite/HS and you can calve those off to their own detachment. Good basis for starting an army.
Let's talk about the wraithlord, one of my favourite units for Eldar (especially if you give one or two the helms from the webway portal set, they then look like wraithlord characters)
I know it has no invuln, and is not the fastest cat in the bag, but where is the sweet spot points wise for it?
I'm considering running barebones plus sword for just 113pts. For that price point, he's still T8 with 10 wounds, and hits like a beast in melee (I usually play Iyanden so the degrading statline is less of an issue). I also have one gun lord with brightlance and AML, but he rarely makes his points (148) and needs either Guide or an Autarch around for rerolls.
So, what weapons are feasible on the Lord that don't wrack up his points to unplayable levels?
Shuriken cannons seem good as they are Assault which means the boy can still move with advance, but there are better platforms for the cannon IMHO. Each brightlance adds 20pts to him and hits only 50% of the time when he moves. Just doesn't seem like a good place for an AT platform. The starcannon is an interesting choice as it's reasonably priced, but still doesn't like moving. It really seems to me that just the sword or possibly shuricannon is the only viable choice for these fellas.
I favour sword, 2 shuricannons and 2 catapults advancing just behind some Wave Serpents. If you opponent shoots the Serpents, their shields reduce incoming damage by 1 and they face the Wraithlord(s) hitting their lines. If they shoot the WLs, they have to get through the T8 and the Serpents will survive to deliver their cargoes and Mortal Wounds.
The Glaive/Shuricannon Lord is cheap enough to function as an effective distraction-carnifex. The Glaive is vital IMHO for the jump from S7 to S9. There are a lot of T7 and T8 targets out there and also you will be wounding T4 targets on a 2+. A pair of Glaive-Lords can even do decent damage to targets like Knights if they can get the charge.
As a quick aside on wraithlords, I was running some test fights against guilliman with different models. I found that three wraithlords would always take him out, these were the basic two catapults and fists variety. Two could take him out sometimes if they attacked first but it was far from certain.
I think it shows the melee capabilities of the wraithlord quite nicely, the problem usually lies in getting them there!
I have been using one in a couple of games with glaive, twin shuricannon and twin shuricat. It has been pretty effective for me in both games, surviving both and dishing out plenty of harm in both. Not sure it made back its points but it came close even with shocking rolls in one game and didn't die, so I'll take that.
It’s a little odd that all the other wraith units get a special rule, but the WL just is a ball of basic stats. I think he’s functional, but a little overpriced and doesn’t have a solid role. I’d like to see him get relentless back. Just the idea of him calmly striding across the battlefield casually blasting things apart seems to fit. And give him the role of mobile fire support and CC backup, reinforcing the lines of guardians.
Love the model though. He’s the primary reason I bought 2 SC: Craftworlds boxes. Built my fire support one, next up I need to start on the CC version.
hvg3akaek wrote: The new "Wake the Dead" boxset is also good - if you have a friend who wants some Primaris space marines, it is excellent value!
That's a fantastic starter force, really hope they keep it around
Hate to bring bad news but these boxes aren't designed to stick around. They are short period discount boxes that will eventually be retired and replaced by another. Knight renegade box for example is already out as are many of the previous ones. If you feel you want this you shouldn't wait too long. Now no need to panic buy right away but I would be surprised if that's still on sale after this year ends except for odd ones in some remote stores that never managed to sold(surprising what you can find that way. I found mint 5th ed fantasy magic box once in a game store couple years ago...There it had sat for like 2 decades unsold)
Nevelon wrote: It’s a little odd that all the other wraith units get a special rule, but the WL just is a ball of basic stats. I think he’s functional, but a little overpriced and doesn’t have a solid role. I’d like to see him get relentless back. Just the idea of him calmly striding across the battlefield casually blasting things apart seems to fit. And give him the role of mobile fire support and CC backup, reinforcing the lines of guardians.
Love the model though. He’s the primary reason I bought 2 SC: Craftworlds boxes. Built my fire support one, next up I need to start on the CC version.
hvg3akaek wrote: The new "Wake the Dead" boxset is also good - if you have a friend who wants some Primaris space marines, it is excellent value!
That's a fantastic starter force, really hope they keep it around
Hate to bring bad news but these boxes aren't designed to stick around. They are short period discount boxes that will eventually be retired and replaced by another. Knight renegade box for example is already out as are many of the previous ones. If you feel you want this you shouldn't wait too long. Now no need to panic buy right away but I would be surprised if that's still on sale after this year ends except for odd ones in some remote stores that never managed to sold(surprising what you can find that way. I found mint 5th ed fantasy magic box once in a game store couple years ago...There it had sat for like 2 decades unsold)
On the other hand...the forgebane one is still around, the tooth and claw one has just been released, and how wake the dead is coming out. Will they have three on sale together? More? We should at least see the other two drop off a while before the eldar one does?
hvg3akaek wrote: On the other hand...the forgebane one is still around, the tooth and claw one has just been released, and how wake the dead is coming out. Will they have three on sale together? More? We should at least see the other two drop off a while before the eldar one does?
Those are still new releases though. And yes those will go out first assuming they sell at equal pace but no evidence says GW has changed their periodic limited time discount boxes release system. Too many boxes permanently would be inconvenient for stores as well.
And I'm not saying it's going to happen soon but if you think you want one might want to get one before it goes away. I didn't with first renegade release and missed again second renegade release(got 1 but was planning to get another) as I delayed getting 2nd box too long.
Only starter sets are kept around longer and this is NOT starter set(GW even specifically refers to it as battle box).
Hi, I'm a bit confused, hopefully someone can clear this up.
The cost of the wraithseer in the imperial armour book is 150 pts but battlescribe lists him as 125. His d cannon has also dropped from 50 to 45. I can't find a points change in the faq or did I just look in the wrong place?
tneva82 wrote: Only starter sets are kept around longer and this is NOT starter set(GW even specifically refers to it as battle box).
This. Unless they explicitly mark it as a starter set for something they won't keep it in stock forever. Forgebane is no longer being listed as well as Adepticus Titanicus.
kingheff wrote: Hi, I'm a bit confused, hopefully someone can clear this up.
The cost of the wraithseer in the imperial armour book is 150 pts but battlescribe lists him as 125. His d cannon has also dropped from 50 to 45. I can't find a points change in the faq or did I just look in the wrong place?
Don't know eldar rules that well but if I would have to make an educated guess it's from chapter approved 2017 which altered points on quite a lots of units. If it's not in any FAQ that's the most likely culprit.
kingheff wrote: Hi, I'm a bit confused, hopefully someone can clear this up.
The cost of the wraithseer in the imperial armour book is 150 pts but battlescribe lists him as 125. His d cannon has also dropped from 50 to 45. I can't find a points change in the faq or did I just look in the wrong place?
Don't know eldar rules that well but if I would have to make an educated guess it's from chapter approved 2017 which altered points on quite a lots of units. If it's not in any FAQ that's the most likely culprit.
Ah, thanks for that. Great news about the wraithseer, I can see an incomparable hunter warlord armed with d cannon being tested soon!
Can't believe the Scorpion got increased to 700 when the consensus seemed to be it was overpriced at 650, ho hum.
So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ? They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase. But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.
So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2. Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway. But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead). Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though
Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?
In the Big FAQ section there is an errata for the Yncarne that does not seem to be in xenos 1. It says he can be deployed normally rather than having to wait until something dies to teleport in. Kinda something I suppose.
Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?
I think Eldar do well out of this. It's most effective on 3+ sv units, so all our tanks + Wraithlords and shining spears.
I don't like the rangers change. Will make them a lot less useful for objective grabbing.
The strat is a bit meh as you're usually in cover or out of LOS turn1.
If that is the case with rangers then they've took a hit and no doubt about it.
Also the shift-shroud has been taken out back, it specifies 1st movement phase.
I think Rangers were nerfed, but in many ways an acceptable nerf as it applies to everyone else either way. It just means fewer armies with 3 x MSU Ranger squads to fill battalion possibly.
They are still decent and cheap character snipers so there is that.
The new strat is interesting but I would need to see it in action before making a judgment.
Eldarsif wrote: I think Rangers were nerfed, but in many ways an acceptable nerf as it applies to everyone else either way. It just means fewer armies with 3 x MSU Ranger squads to fill battalion possibly.
They are still decent and cheap character snipers so there is that.
For me, it just reinforces them as my only viable Troop. DAs are a bit meh and Guardians need to drop in via WWP, which can't happen until turn 2 anyway. We can still deploy Rangers turn 1 as normal, which keeps them as a viable screen, but now we can actually drop them in later to snatch Objectives that aren't near big threats. So while a nerf of the typical tactic, I'm actually starting to warm to the change as a good late-game tactic that doesn't require CPs.
It's not like Rangers do much offense for me anyway.
Sterling191 wrote: So does that also mean an Alaitoc HQ can freely deepstrike mid-game with the Shimmerplume now?
No, it means they cannot use Deep Strike in matched play.
That's rubbish (from GW). They must errata the Shriftshroud ASAP, in Chapter Approved or sooner. Half the relic is useless in Matched? That's acceptable how?
We must notify GW so they acknowledge the mistake.
Eldarsif wrote: I think Rangers were nerfed, but in many ways an acceptable nerf as it applies to everyone else either way. It just means fewer armies with 3 x MSU Ranger squads to fill battalion possibly.
They are still decent and cheap character snipers so there is that.
The new strat is interesting but I would need to see it in action before making a judgment.
Rangers can still be used as backline obsec and DS denial and for getting forward objectives I can see swooping hawks taking the role. Either start them on the board out of LOS to fake an opponent out before flying them out t1 and dropping them in T2 or just keep them out altogether and drop them on objectives.
looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.
bullyboy wrote: looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.
Main reason was probably -1 to hit, 3+ save in cover and the old infiltrate ability letting them start in cover next to the objectives made rangers, especially alaitoc, much better. but now that they can't infiltrate I can see hawks getting more use as cheap skirmishers and objective grabbers.
bullyboy wrote: looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.
Main reason was probably -1 to hit, 3+ save in cover and the old infiltrate ability letting them start in cover next to the objectives made rangers, especially alaitoc, much better. but now that they can't infiltrate I can see hawks getting more use as cheap skirmishers and objective grabbers.
If youre gonna take a unit for its objective sitting ability rather than its offensive output, it may as well be a troops choice for your detachments.
If Rangers weren't troops they wouldn't see much use.
bullyboy wrote: looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.
I've tried a ten man unit in a couple of games recently, unfortunately they were against custodes and thousand sons. I think they did one wound in each game in shooting and no mortal wound output from the grenade packs due to poor rolling on my part.
They are still a decent unit but they need to target something squishy to do any real damage.
bullyboy wrote: looked at Swooping hawks the other day and wondered why they are not getting used. Cheap as dirt, decent gun range for a deep strike unit, and can help clear some chaff. 68pts for 5 is a nice way to take some objectives. I guess Rangers can do the same thing, but don't have the same kind of maneuverability when on the table.
Rangers synergize better with the big Craftworld special stuff (notably the Alaitoc -1 and Doom) far better than Hawks do for general purpose use. Plus the Rangers can help fill out detachments for CPs better.
Thats not to say that Hawks dont have their role, just that by the nature of the Codex that role is much more niche than the things Rangers get included for.
Missed opportunity to do something about the Webway Gate I think!
Generally agree with all changes.
Hoping for points reductions in CA later this year for Warlocks and Spiritseers as you just don’t see them anymore, which is a bit odd - especially for Ulthwe.
-2 to hit and a 3+ save out in the open is great. Having the option to deep strike into cover later to grab backfield objectives is also great. Infiltrating rangers were really more of a speed bump before anyway.
I cant remember if it was ETC or Nova but some top eldar lists were using Swooping Hawks for their screens instead of rangers since the Hawks cannot get trapped in combat thanks to fly.
Galef wrote: So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ?
They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase.
But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.
So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2.
Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway.
But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead).
Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though
Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?
-
Screens still needed vs da jump etc. Death company dropping close and do 3d6 charge still hurts without screen. With change to fly screens rose in value
So are we so used to have useless units and options that nobody is going to complain about no Errata on the Shriftshroud?
Maybe it's nitpicking but I hate to see this kind of half-arsed rules changes from GW.
Oversight or they just don't care?
What is sad is that people complain so much about Eldar when in reality it's just a select few units that are powerful and most of the codex is average at best! Our warlord traits and relics are just terrible for the most part.
It's really a shame that you don't see many of the cool units in the codex.....Banshees, Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears (just kidding), wraithlords, falcons, etc.
I honestly think I'm going to have to resurrect my Biel Tan Aspect Host just to throw out some different units (have an Iyanden Spirit Host and Ulthwe Strike force). I love playing Eldar in their stereotypical incarnations (my Ulthwe strike force is just Guardians, warwalkers, vypers, seers and support weapons)
Edit: As an aside, what do people now think about fielding the Yncarne for Ynnari since it can start on the table now?
Secondary edit: With the new article on Warhammer Community https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/09/30/24th-sept-grim-dark-corners-the-aeldari-pantheongw-homepage-post-2-gw-homepage-post-3/, does this hint at a possible Ynnari codex in the near future? Remember that there was an article about Ghost Warriors a few weeks ago out of nowhere (which I thought odd with the timing), which heralded the announcement of the new Wake the Dead box. Why release the article on the Aeldari Gods, culminating with the talk about Ynnead if no Ynnari codex is in the wings?
bullyboy wrote: Edit: As an aside, what do people now think about fielding the Yncarne for Ynnari since it can start on the table now?
I'm curious about that, too. It definitely makes it possible as an alternative to Yvraine, but I feel like it's just got too many points invested in abilities that generally aren't going to be useful.
On the plus side- it's a very nice beatstick that can be protected by Wraithblades or somesuch, is active in the psychic phase, and can soulburst itself and other Ynnari, and the 6+++ bubble is a nice touch.
But, the downside is that it pays a premium in points for its dedeploy ability, and was originally balanced against the pre-nerf Soulburst mechanics. Post those changes, I have a hard time justifying it in a list at 330+ points.
So, personally, i think Rangers are now just a standard drop. Until CA (if not longer) you're going to be paying for their ability to deep strike, but never going to be using it.
They can be used as screens, but, i feel that in most Eldar lists screening is a bit redundant anyway. The best screening units to prevent the few instances of turn 1 charges now will be Hemlocks/Crimson Hunters, or just straight up Wave Serpents if you expect they'll be able to survive turn 1 with a 2+ save. At most i think Rangers will be used for "cheap" cp AND denying small pockets of deepstrike zones for your opponent. But, when Dire Avengers also exist, it's a hard choice to make to take the Rangers.
I've always liked Swooping Hawks, but, the problem i have with them is their ability to survive. They need to be in deepstrike 95% of the time imo, and now you'll be always waiting for turn 2 to drop them down. They are a great backline harasser and objective grabber, but, unless you have other distractions everywhere else they won't do much in regards to winning you the game.
One unit that could be interesting as a screen, especially if you're going second and have the spare CP to burn on the strat, is Warp Spiders.They are more expensive than Hawks, but, will be rocking a 2+ save, can flicker jump alongside being Alaitoc for -2 to hit, and can then use their packs to fall back and still shoot/charge forward.
The more i look at it though, the more i'm thinking "how many Wave Serpents can i get in my list and what can i put in them that will pack a punch afterwards?".
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for Ynnari, i don't really see anything as having changed for them. Everything they could do before, they can do now, with the exception of Spears charging over units.
bullyboy wrote: What is sad is that people complain so much about Eldar when in reality it's just a select few units that are powerful and most of the codex is average at best! Our warlord traits and relics are just terrible for the most part.
It's really a shame that you don't see many of the cool units in the codex.....Banshees, Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears (just kidding), wraithlords, falcons, etc.
Pure Craftworlds aren't as good as many non-Craftworld players like to claim(unless you play perhaps Alaitoc). Dark Reapers were the strongest units pre-nerf, especially with Ynnari boosting, but post-nerf they are in a fine place. With Shining Spears I'd say they are good but not nearly as powerful as people say, unless they have Soulburst. Problem is that the current strength of Asuryani is more or less traced back to having Ynnari abilities rather than anything else. I fear that if they continue nerfing Craftworlds as a reflection of Ynnari strength that Craftworlds will be that much more worse for wear.
With the new FAQ, I think that dire avengers are going to be one of the most reliable troop choices. The new everything gets cover stratagem helps them more than any other unit because the exarch's 4+ invuln gets bumped to 3+ which can absorb quite a bit of firepower if your dice are even slightly lucky. Having 2 wounds on the exarch is pretty crucial as well. Even if only 1 DA squad member survives the first turn they didn't give up a killpoint, and can still hold a backfield objective. I think they also work better just because they can fit in a wave serpent which is by far our best unit again.
I think we are going to see a strong return to serpent spam due to the deep strike and infiltrate rules changing. The serpent shield disrupts the current meta of using D2 and D3 weapons. A lot of armies are going for the avenger cannons, heavy burst cannon, disintegrator cannons, and plasma weapons instead of laying on extra melta weapons or lascannons/rail rifles. Most armies can only manage to pop 1 wave serpent on turn 1, especially with screening units to block charges. I think dire avengers play into that strategy well because even if they are used as a screen you can embark them the turn after if they survive.
Swooping hawk seem like decent screens but they are fast attack so you might have to sacrifice CP when comparing to dire avengers or rangers.
Rangers always make good screens but they don't have the slightest chance of surviving close combat like dire avengers do. I can see bringing 1 unit of rangers as opposed to the obligatory 3x5 rangers for their versatility. 3 seems kind of overkill with the new FAQ.
Warp spiders make for great distractions, but I don't think their guns do consistent enough damage to warrant their high points cost. I would only take them with alaitoc to be really annoying objective grabbers. In my experience they can take a lot more firepower than their worth, but they'll never earn their points back in terms of damage without some serious luck.
Cover doesn't add +1 to invulnerable saves (thankfully).
I think Rangers will still have a pretty substantial utility as a screening troops choice with the new cover stratagem. Previously it was not possible to set them up as a true screen out of cover because they lose so much durability. Now you can put them anywhere to block Smashcaptains, and be guaranteed full durability vs shooting that tries to clear them for turn 1 at least if you end up going second.
Dire Avengers may be a little hardier in CC but honestly, if your enemy charges your squishy T3 models with anything half serious they are gonna die.
Theyre still overall not a bad choice for a generalist troops choice but between Guardian bombs and reliable -2 to hit Rangers theyre still a tough sell.
I think Rangers will still have a place because they are cheap, hard to hit with shooting, can target characters, and can get a mortal wound on 6. Dire Avengers have a shorter firing range, slightly better armor out of cover, and have an ability against charging that may or may not be useful in your current fight.
Rangers are still great but their shooting is still almost non-existent in most games.
The DA's overwatch ability will find more use with the new charge rules I think. And the avenger catapult has a fairly long range since they are moving 7+D6 inches per turn.
Guardian bombs seem like a pretty big investment between points, CP, and supporting characters. The new deep strike rules didn't do them any favours.
I don't think dire avengers are that good at any particular thing except clearing chaff, but they aren't as bad as the other troop choices in terms of versatility
Since you have a big nerf to fly, you need t clear some screens, so what in the Craftworld list does it best? It seems that most of that which works is best coming from reserve.
bullyboy wrote: Since you have a big nerf to fly, you need t clear some screens, so what in the Craftworld list does it best? It seems that most of that which works is best coming from reserve.
Potential turn one charge from Howling Banshees? It takes support, but the support are things in a typical army. Quicken, Doom, Stratagem for 6" advance...
Depends on the screen. Linked Fire Fire Prisms shooting a d6 beam twice could help a lot against most target. If you are facing T3 bodies I imagine Swooping Hawks could be helpful. If Scatter Bikes were a little cheaper I would recommend them.
This may see a return towards the usefulness of scat bikes. One can counter deploy the bikes to be in line of site and range of the screen, then just mow it down from the 36" range. For heavier screens, Hornets are pretty deadly, but they are somewhat costly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
barboggo wrote: Why not just use your Shining Spears to clear the screen?
The effectiveness of this unit will most assuredly go down come CA. Will they still be good? Most likely, but that depends on the point increase that is coming.
Galef wrote: So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ?
They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase.
But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.
So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2.
Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway.
But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead).
Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though
Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?
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Screens still needed vs da jump etc. Death company dropping close and do 3d6 charge still hurts without screen. With change to fly screens rose in value
Agreed, but Rangers didn't need "infiltrate" as it was before to be screens. They can still be screens by deploying normally, but now have the option to drop in on a later turn instead.
Overall it changes how they function, but I don't see it as a nerf (or a buff), but more like a lateral move.
But I'm still really, really disappointed with the Webway Gate not being changed.
Galef wrote: So are Rangers better or worse post FAQ?
They changed their deployment rule so that instead of being deployed just after deployment, they are placed at the end of any Move phase.
But the Tactical Reserve change also means any unit arriving mid-battle like this cannot do so in the first battle round.
So Rangers cannot drop in until turn 2.
Personally, this isn't too bad as Rangers are my only Troops and I need them later anyway.
But it does mean that I can no longer use them to screen in the first turn (or second turn if I go second), which may not be necessary since NOTHING can drop near you in the first turn anymore (things that uses to "infiltrate" now "scout" instead).
Still have to worry about move twice abilities, though
Also, what do we think of the "second player gets cover" Strat?
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Screens still needed vs da jump etc. Death company dropping close and do 3d6 charge still hurts without screen. With change to fly screens rose in value
Agreed, but Rangers didn't need "infiltrate" as it was before to be screens. They can still be screens by deploying normally, but now have the option to drop in on a later turn instead.
Overall it changes how they function, but I don't see it as a nerf (or a buff), but more like a lateral move.
But I'm still really, really disappointed with the Webway Gate not being changed.
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Functionally, the only hope for the Webway Gate is that that they know it is junk and already planned on it being addressed in CA. However I feel it can still be used tactically with a little ingenuity. I plan to attend a GT in Nov and use that bad boy as the backbone to a fluffy list designed to win preferred opponent. Couple the Webway Gate with a Harlequin list consisting of 2 fusion pistols, then profit!
Well, at least the WWG got a sort-of bonus in the from of "Prepared Positions". 2CPs if you go second can give it a 2+ armour.
But if you are going second, the opponent have 2 turns to take down the WWG before you get to use it at all, so probably not going to make a difference other than making you hemorrhage CPs.
The gate would automaically benefit if the harlequin strats were available to Craftworlds to allow an emergency exit. Not sure what I would put into it still as infantry/vehicles can just use a CP to do the same without the 120pts. The exception is the CP to allow you to exit and just be over 1" away instead of 9" away, but a smart player would just shut the gate down completely with their movement.
I thought the "Harlequin" stats are available automatically because the Webwey is a Harlequin unit, so it unlocks the stratagems since it can only be taken as part of a harlequin fortification detachment. The stratagem itself (The Labyrinth Laughs) states an AELDARI unit not a HARLEQUINS unit.
Or does the fortification detachment not give stratagem access?
The problem with the gate is that if the enemy destroys it on the first turn you cannot use the stratagem since there is no deploying from reserves during the first turn. There is nothing in the Webway gate datasheet or stratagems that allows you to circumvent that rule.
abyrn wrote: I thought the "Harlequin" stats are available automatically because the Webwey is a Harlequin unit, so it unlocks the stratagems since it can only be taken as part of a harlequin fortification detachment. The stratagem itself (The Labyrinth Laughs) states an AELDARI unit not a HARLEQUINS unit.
Or does the fortification detachment not give stratagem access?
The problem with the gate is that if the enemy destroys it on the first turn you cannot use the stratagem since there is no deploying from reserves during the first turn. There is nothing in the Webway gate datasheet or stratagems that allows you to circumvent that rule.
you're absolutely right on the first part, I just never thought of it as a harlequin detachment. That helps a little bit.
I'm not sure on the second part with the use of the strat but the new Beta reserves rule does forbid any deployment in first turn. Hopefully GW will address this. Isn't there a necron thing that is the same?
The "emergency exit" strat still doesn't override the "no units may arrive turn 1" reserve restriction, So if the WWG dies in the first turn, everything "in it" dies too, regardless of having access to the strat There really is no grey in this.
For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.
Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.
Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.
Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.
Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.
Not completely sold on the Windriders(they are easily killed with a meta that has high strength, high-ap, 2 damage weapons), but Wave Serpents have been a solid unit for me since 8th started.
Eldarsif wrote: Not completely sold on the Windriders(they are easily killed with a meta that has high strength, high-ap, 2 damage weapons), but Wave Serpents have been a solid unit for me since 8th started.
While I agree they can be fragile vs 2 damage weapons, I’d also argue that most of the 2 damage weapons taken in large quantities will still be giving you a 4+ save turn 1 – if you have no choice but to deploy in LoS.
For example, a Knight with a Gatling Cannon, hitting on 4s will kill 2 models. A dissie cannon Ravager will kill 2 models. Plasma won’t be overcharging due to the -1, maybe -2 to hit (and will likely be aimed at the Wave Serpents anyway).
10-man Reaper squads, will, of course still half kill a unit.
But, beyond that, what else is there that is taken in big enough numbers? The biggest issue, will continue to be weight of dice focusing down 1 unit at a time. But, hopefully, by that time, you’ve done enough damage yourself that it becomes a race to the end on who can do the most damage the fastest.
If you go first though, you also have the advantage of weight of dice, from a massive 24” range that also allows you to maintain your -1 to hit effectiveness. On top of that, you’d also be expecting a high number of forced saves and a good chunk of them at -3 AP.
I’d also argue that, if you focus solely on removing the 3 squads of Windriders over the first 1-3 turns, your opponent likely won’t be in a good position to subsequently take out the 4 Wave Serpents.
Galef wrote: The "emergency exit" strat still doesn't override the "no units may arrive turn 1" reserve restriction,
So if the WWG dies in the first turn, everything "in it" dies too, regardless of having access to the strat
There really is no grey in this.
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Hopefully GW realizes this and fixes those strategems that were created before this rule(and thus obviously aren't designed with it in mind)
Kdash wrote: For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.
Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.
Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.
Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.
Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.
A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.
As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?
With Doom on the table your optimal loadout is Starcannons across all three. Wounding semi-reliably on 5s against heavies with good AP -3 and decent volume of fire means they can supplement AT while still being absolutely terrifying MEQ/TEQ killers at excellent range.
Pointswise equivalent to your BL/SC/SL trio, but you don't lose efficacy against a particular unit type if one goes down. Comes out a smidge behind without Doom on T7s, but is effectively identical on T8s.
Alternative option is going 1x BL + 1x SC across all three. Pretty decent swiss army unit that can do work in the AT and heavy infantry realms for 85 points apiece.
Kdash wrote: For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.
Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.
Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.
Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.
Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.
A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.
As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?
I've got it at 2000 exactly with just the lance on the Autarch?
As for dealing with Knights etc, you'd be surprised. Fighting vs a 4+/4++ Knight (thanks to Jinx) i'd expect to do 25 wounds to it due to Doom. Sure, i'm not going to 1 shot a Castellan "on average", but it shows, that if i can protect the bikes in an alpha strike situation, i can easily put out the damage to cripple or even destroy a Knight. If i'm fighting a pure Knight army, i'd expect to maybe lose 1 squad of bikes in retaliation if they focus fire or rush a unit with a Gallant. If they are playing a Guard brigade, then, destroying the Castellan means turns 2-6 is me taking minimal losses from lasgun fire while i pick off whatever i want.
The Wave Serpents are the bait, and will be the main focus for a lot of people - they know more about them and know about what they can do when compared to Windriders. I could spend the 175 from the Wraithblades on some Shining Spears, or i could go for a couple of Vypers - or even a Crimson Hunter Exarch, but, imo, lacking a melee option is not always the best idea.
For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.
Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.
Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.
Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.
Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.
A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.
As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?
I've got it at 2000 exactly with just the lance on the Autarch?
As for dealing with Knights etc, you'd be surprised. Fighting vs a 4+/4++ Knight (thanks to Jinx) i'd expect to do 25 wounds to it due to Doom. Sure, i'm not going to 1 shot a Castellan "on average", but it shows, that if i can protect the bikes in an alpha strike situation, i can easily put out the damage to cripple or even destroy a Knight. If i'm fighting a pure Knight army, i'd expect to maybe lose 1 squad of bikes in retaliation if they focus fire or rush a unit with a Gallant. If they are playing a Guard brigade, then, destroying the Castellan means turns 2-6 is me taking minimal losses from lasgun fire while i pick off whatever i want.
The Wave Serpents are the bait, and will be the main focus for a lot of people - they know more about them and know about what they can do when compared to Windriders. I could spend the 175 from the Wraithblades on some Shining Spears, or i could go for a couple of Vypers - or even a Crimson Hunter Exarch, but, imo, lacking a melee option is not always the best idea.
I just realized I only added up 3 Serpents instead of 4.
And the average is here:https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/
Here is the average vs a Knight Equivalent which has been Doomed, but has not been buffed in any way:
3x Shuriken Cannon Bike Squad (of 9 bikes): Total Shots-81 / Total Hits-54 / Wounds Caused-30 / Unsaved Wounds - 13
4x Triple Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent: Total Shots-36 / Total Hits-24 / Wounds Caused-13.333 / Unsaved Wounds - 5.778
15x Rangers: Total Shots-15 / Total Hits-10 / Wounds Caused-2.583 / Unsaved Wounds - 0.861 (Includes 2 Mortal Wounds)
Guide or the Autarch aura will bump those numbers, but not enough for me to think that's a viable strategy. Even if all of that is enough to kill one knight a turn, that means you need to spend 1,512 points of shooting to down a Knight. Obviously smite, the serpent shields, execution, etc can reduce the number of squads you need to fire, but it is still rough. Bike's are LD7, which means if your opponent only needs to kill 6 bikes per squad to make them run from morale (taking the averages).
As for Jinx, its Warp Charge 7, which means it will only go off 50% of the time. Sure you can command point to increases your odds, but I don't like to bank on jinx.
Are empty wave serpents with triple shuriken cannons really that exciting a target though? If I was fighting this list I'd focus on the one carrying the Wraithblades and then start taking down everything else except the other three serpents.
Maybe swap out the other three serpents for twin shuriken cannon, glaive wraithlords? Not as tough obviously but only a bit less firepower and very useable in melee, even against Knights with four strength 9 attacks each.
For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.
Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.
Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.
Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.
Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.
Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.
A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.
As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?
I've got it at 2000 exactly with just the lance on the Autarch?
As for dealing with Knights etc, you'd be surprised. Fighting vs a 4+/4++ Knight (thanks to Jinx) i'd expect to do 25 wounds to it due to Doom. Sure, i'm not going to 1 shot a Castellan "on average", but it shows, that if i can protect the bikes in an alpha strike situation, i can easily put out the damage to cripple or even destroy a Knight. If i'm fighting a pure Knight army, i'd expect to maybe lose 1 squad of bikes in retaliation if they focus fire or rush a unit with a Gallant. If they are playing a Guard brigade, then, destroying the Castellan means turns 2-6 is me taking minimal losses from lasgun fire while i pick off whatever i want.
The Wave Serpents are the bait, and will be the main focus for a lot of people - they know more about them and know about what they can do when compared to Windriders. I could spend the 175 from the Wraithblades on some Shining Spears, or i could go for a couple of Vypers - or even a Crimson Hunter Exarch, but, imo, lacking a melee option is not always the best idea.
I just realized I only added up 3 Serpents instead of 4.
And the average is here:https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/
Here is the average vs a Knight Equivalent which has been Doomed, but has not been buffed in any way:
3x Shuriken Cannon Bike Squad (of 9 bikes): Total Shots-81 / Total Hits-54 / Wounds Caused-30 / Unsaved Wounds - 13
4x Triple Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent: Total Shots-36 / Total Hits-24 / Wounds Caused-13.333 / Unsaved Wounds - 5.778
15x Rangers: Total Shots-15 / Total Hits-10 / Wounds Caused-2.583 / Unsaved Wounds - 0.861 (Includes 2 Mortal Wounds)
Guide or the Autarch aura will bump those numbers, but not enough for me to think that's a viable strategy. Even if all of that is enough to kill one knight a turn, that means you need to spend 1,512 points of shooting to down a Knight. Obviously smite, the serpent shields, execution, etc can reduce the number of squads you need to fire, but it is still rough. Bike's are LD7, which means if your opponent only needs to kill 6 bikes per squad to make them run from morale (taking the averages).
I'm getting 19.38 wounds from the bikes + wave serpents on a doomed Knight (using the Autarch's re-roll 1's. So yes, i agree, that it potentially isn't doing enough, depending on the game. However, add in jinx to make it a 4+/4++ (have to expect RIO at this point) and you get to 25.278 wounds, which is a dead Knight.
As for Ld, i'd get around that as a by-product of running Alaitoc. In this style of list i can easily run the "ignores morale" Alaitoc WL trait, as it's not like i'll need the extra ap on 6's or the ability to snipe characters etc.
In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kingheff wrote: Are empty wave serpents with triple shuriken cannons really that exciting a target though? If I was fighting this list I'd focus on the one carrying the Wraithblades and then start taking down everything else except the other three serpents.
Maybe swap out the other three serpents for twin shuriken cannon, glaive wraithlords? Not as tough obviously but only a bit less firepower and very useable in melee, even against Knights with four strength 9 attacks each.
They are generally more of a perceived threat than the bikes are. Also, if you pop the first Wave Serpent from shooting, i can easily jump the Wraithblades into another Serpent - depending on how much shooting you have left.
I didn't consider Wraithlords before, i'll look at it, but, my issue with them would be mobility. With only an 8" move, they aren't keeping up with the rest of the main force, and i believe they kinda need Starcannons over Shuriken Cannons, in order to be effective, but, that then suffers due to moving, or forces you to likely stay still.
It's a potential option in regards to swapping out the Wraithblades with a couple of other changes - as my list can't really do much with the 40 odd points saved from the switch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A 3rd option is running 2 Vypers, and using the spare 35 points on a Reaper Launcher for the Autarch and 2 Singing Spears for the psykers, but, if i do go full shooting, then i can't help but think it'd be better to do a straight swap for a CHE.
Kdash wrote: In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.
Another option, is to drop the Wraithblades and run Illic, a 2nd Warlock skyrunner for redundancy, give all 3 psykers Singing Spears, and swap the Autarchs lance for a fusion gun and scorpion chainsword.
Kdash wrote: In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.
How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.
The Farseer and Warlock will always be within 6" of each other, so they can use the Seer Council strat for 1CP, to give them both +1 to cast on all power for that phase.
Kdash wrote: Another option, is to drop the Wraithblades and run Illic, a 2nd Warlock skyrunner for redundancy, give all 3 psykers Singing Spears, and swap the Autarchs lance for a fusion gun and scorpion chainsword.
Kdash wrote: In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.
How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.
The Farseer and Warlock will always be within 6" of each other, so they can use the Seer Council strat for 1CP, to give them both +1 to cast on all power for that phase.
I'm still not buying what you're selling. If either of your two Psychic powers misfire or get denied, then your strategy is sunk. Even if everything goes according to plan, it is going to take just about your entire force to kill that one knight, which can use stratagems to potentially stand back up and fire at full BS the next turn. If you go second, you're likely going to lose enough of your force to make killing that knight improbable, or the deployment is of a certain type (i.e. Hammer and Anvil) it is going to be tough to get all of those guns/abilities into range.
Kdash wrote: Another option, is to drop the Wraithblades and run Illic, a 2nd Warlock skyrunner for redundancy, give all 3 psykers Singing Spears, and swap the Autarchs lance for a fusion gun and scorpion chainsword.
Kdash wrote: In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.
How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.
The Farseer and Warlock will always be within 6" of each other, so they can use the Seer Council strat for 1CP, to give them both +1 to cast on all power for that phase.
I'm still not buying what you're selling. If either of your two Psychic powers misfire or get denied, then your strategy is sunk. Even if everything goes according to plan, it is going to take just about your entire force to kill that one knight, which can use stratagems to potentially stand back up and fire at full BS the next turn. If you go second, you're likely going to lose enough of your force to make killing that knight improbable, or the deployment is of a certain type (i.e. Hammer and Anvil) it is going to be tough to get all of those guns/abilities into range.
Genuine question - as it was by trying to answer the question i came across this idea -
What is the best way for each faction to kill a 3+/3++ Knight, without using your own Castellan, post big FAQ 2?
Also take into account that the Knight will be screened turn 1, if you plan on using melee you need to account for shooting 20 Guardsmen first.
As it stands, this idea needs 1655 points and potentially 2 CP.
From a Craftworlds pov, you could use 28 Dark Reapers, 1 autarch, 1 farseer skyrunner and 1 warlock skyrunner, hoping for the same powers to go off, for a total of 1244 points. But, what is going to die faster? 27 bikes or 28 dark reapers?
You could also run Ynnari (which i'm not keen on) and save yourself the points for 10 Reapers in exchange for Yvaraine and the hope of a 3rd power going off each turn.
Can space marines of any type reliably kill a 3++ knight now, even when using all 2000 points?
I know from experience that Custodes Biker Captains have a hardtime killing a single Knight between 3 of them.
Drukari, i guess is probably your best bet, but, you're now spending 4CP to vect RIO, and you're only going to be doing that twice, max - not to mention that 3 haywire talos cost more than 1 9 man biker squad and will have a harder time getting into shooting range than the bikers will. But, they are significantly more durable, so it'd become a race.
Halequinns with haywire are another solid choice i guess, but they are super expensive and suffer even more from the "don't go first, won't kill the knight" argument.
T'au potentially have options, but, i think they have to dedicate even more points to kill the Knight.
Guard - not sure to be fair, but i imagine it is a similar story to T'au. (a fully kitted out Shadowsword does about 9.3 wounds to a 3++ knight for a 540 point cost)
Thousand Sons can smite spam or super rush Magnus at the Knight, but, smite spam takes time to get through the screens, and if Magnus doesn't go first, Magnus dies.
CSM i'm guessing are similar to Space Marines - especially now Oblits have to wait to turn 2 to start having an impact.
Not sure how the numbers work for Death Guard.
Necrons can spam destroyers, but it doesn't come close to killing a Knight - and again they have more issues with range than the Bikers will have.
Whichever way we look at it, i've come to the conclusion, that to kill a Knight with a 3++ requires either fantastic luck or 75-100% of your shooting + stratagems and/or powers to pull off reliably.
Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!
Automatically Appended Next Post: All for 450 pts too
Automatically Appended Next Post: Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.
TS will 18 inch death hex the knight and promptly kill him once his invuln save is gone. Chaos can do it too, but it's trickier without the +6 inch range.
abyrn wrote: I thought the "Harlequin" stats are available automatically because the Webwey is a Harlequin unit, so it unlocks the stratagems since it can only be taken as part of a harlequin fortification detachment. The stratagem itself (The Labyrinth Laughs) states an AELDARI unit not a HARLEQUINS unit.
Or does the fortification detachment not give stratagem access?
The problem with the gate is that if the enemy destroys it on the first turn you cannot use the stratagem since there is no deploying from reserves during the first turn. There is nothing in the Webway gate datasheet or stratagems that allows you to circumvent that rule.
you're absolutely right on the first part, I just never thought of it as a harlequin detachment. That helps a little bit.
The gate is in the Harlequin codex, but doesn't have the Harlequin keyword.
It only has the Aeldari keyword, so if you go pure RAW you can't even field it at all because of the battle brothers rule (even in a detachment by itself it causes an issue), although no sane person would argue that.
fresus wrote: It only has the Aeldari keyword, so if you go pure RAW you can't even field it at all because of the battle brothers rule (even in a detachment by itself it causes an issue), although no sane person would argue that.
Out of curiosity what issue with own detachment? If it's on detachment of it's own with nothing else battle brother rule doesn't change.
But yeah that thing needs new rules desperately. It's been hit by 2 new rules after it was originally written up to screw it up.
kingheff wrote: Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!
Automatically Appended Next Post: All for 450 pts too
Automatically Appended Next Post: Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.
So, 3 units of 3 War Walkers, with 2 Bright Lances each (18 lances in total) only does 12.25 damage on average to a 3++ Knight – and that is with Doom AND Autarch re-roll 1’s to hit. It will also cost you a total of 1022 points to do that 12.25 damage and relies on you successfully casting Doom.
With guide and doom, a Scorpion will average 4 unsaved wounds. If we be generous and say 1 of those 4 is a 6, then, it comes out at 15 points of damage for 845 points. But, to get this, it means you aren’t moving the Scorpion and thus, won’t have an invuln for the return fire. Hitting on 3’s reduces the expected damage to 9.679.
It DOES have the potential to 1 shot a Knight though (24 wound Knight) IF it rolls 18+ out of 24 for its number of shots.
D-Cannons could be interesting, if in range, but again, 2 units of 3 would only average 9.679 points of damage, whereas 3 units of 3 would do 14.519. But again, that’s 887 points worth of shooting.
Currently, “anti-tank” sucks at killing tanks with high invuln saves on average.
For example, you could run 94 Guardian Defenders with a Farseer Skyrunner for the same price as the D-cannons. IF you somehow, miraculously, get all of them into range of a Knight in 1 turn, you can expect roughly 14.893 points of damage to be done to it – if you’re running Biel-Tan for the re-roll 1s.
Now, the above will -never ever- happen, but, it does highlight the point. Why spend points on anti-tank, when weight of dice is just as good and likely gives you way better table control?
fresus wrote: It only has the Aeldari keyword, so if you go pure RAW you can't even field it at all because of the battle brothers rule (even in a detachment by itself it causes an issue), although no sane person would argue that.
Out of curiosity what issue with own detachment? If it's on detachment of it's own with nothing else battle brother rule doesn't change.
But yeah that thing needs new rules desperately. It's been hit by 2 new rules after it was originally written up to screw it up.
I agree, the Webway gate isn’t impacted by Battle Brothers, due to it being in its own Fortification Network detachment – and thus not restricted by the Battle Brothers requirement.
As for fixing it – I genuinely feel like the only way to “fix” it, is to make it a terrain piece that cannot be targeted, like the Nurgle Tree. If you can’t blow up a tree with a lascannon, you shouldn’t be able to blow up something that is meant to be all but indestructible with one.
kingheff wrote: Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!
Automatically Appended Next Post: All for 450 pts too
Automatically Appended Next Post: Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.
So, 3 units of 3 War Walkers, with 2 Bright Lances each (18 lances in total) only does 12.25 damage on average to a 3++ Knight – and that is with Doom AND Autarch re-roll 1’s to hit. It will also cost you a total of 1022 points to do that 12.25 damage and relies on you successfully casting Doom.
With guide and doom, a Scorpion will average 4 unsaved wounds. If we be generous and say 1 of those 4 is a 6, then, it comes out at 15 points of damage for 845 points. But, to get this, it means you aren’t moving the Scorpion and thus, won’t have an invuln for the return fire. Hitting on 3’s reduces the expected damage to 9.679.
It DOES have the potential to 1 shot a Knight though (24 wound Knight) IF it rolls 18+ out of 24 for its number of shots.
D-Cannons could be interesting, if in range, but again, 2 units of 3 would only average 9.679 points of damage, whereas 3 units of 3 would do 14.519. But again, that’s 887 points worth of shooting.
Currently, “anti-tank” sucks at killing tanks with high invuln saves on average.
For example, you could run 94 Guardian Defenders with a Farseer Skyrunner for the same price as the D-cannons. IF you somehow, miraculously, get all of them into range of a Knight in 1 turn, you can expect roughly 14.893 points of damage to be done to it – if you’re running Biel-Tan for the re-roll 1s.
Now, the above will -never ever- happen, but, it does highlight the point. Why spend points on anti-tank, when weight of dice is just as good and likely gives you way better table control?
These anti tank blobs are expensive but if you're fighting 1400ish points of knights with guard support you need to assign big points in return.
A potentially nice thing about the war walkers in particular is the number of units and the range of the guns. If the knight player rotates ion shields you can switch to a secondary knight with the lesser invuln.
kingheff wrote: A potentially nice thing about the war walkers in particular is the number of units and the range of the guns. If the knight player rotates ion shields you can switch to a secondary knight with the lesser invuln.
Oh yeah always keep this in mind. With multiple knights I find that rotation be lot less effective than one might hope. I don't have one "this must be killed" knight as such(castellan but 3CP is too steep price for my 11-relic/trait CP's) so if I use it right away against first gun opponent simply shoots somewhere else so I MAYBE saved like one or two lascannon(if I rolled 4 for inv save) and then that's it for the 1CP.
I have found myself not using the strategem lately. Generally I find better usage than to stop 1 more out of 6 attempts.
kingheff wrote: Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!
Automatically Appended Next Post: All for 450 pts too
Automatically Appended Next Post: Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.
So, 3 units of 3 War Walkers, with 2 Bright Lances each (18 lances in total) only does 12.25 damage on average to a 3++ Knight – and that is with Doom AND Autarch re-roll 1’s to hit. It will also cost you a total of 1022 points to do that 12.25 damage and relies on you successfully casting Doom.
With guide and doom, a Scorpion will average 4 unsaved wounds. If we be generous and say 1 of those 4 is a 6, then, it comes out at 15 points of damage for 845 points. But, to get this, it means you aren’t moving the Scorpion and thus, won’t have an invuln for the return fire. Hitting on 3’s reduces the expected damage to 9.679.
It DOES have the potential to 1 shot a Knight though (24 wound Knight) IF it rolls 18+ out of 24 for its number of shots.
D-Cannons could be interesting, if in range, but again, 2 units of 3 would only average 9.679 points of damage, whereas 3 units of 3 would do 14.519. But again, that’s 887 points worth of shooting.
Currently, “anti-tank” sucks at killing tanks with high invuln saves on average.
For example, you could run 94 Guardian Defenders with a Farseer Skyrunner for the same price as the D-cannons. IF you somehow, miraculously, get all of them into range of a Knight in 1 turn, you can expect roughly 14.893 points of damage to be done to it – if you’re running Biel-Tan for the re-roll 1s.
Now, the above will -never ever- happen, but, it does highlight the point. Why spend points on anti-tank, when weight of dice is just as good and likely gives you way better table control?
These anti tank blobs are expensive but if you're fighting 1400ish points of knights with guard support you need to assign big points in return.
A potentially nice thing about the war walkers in particular is the number of units and the range of the guns. If the knight player rotates ion shields you can switch to a secondary knight with the lesser invuln.
While I don’t disagree, but, if you drop 1022 points on 3 units of War Walkers with support the following happens. (assuming you’re fighting more than 1 Knight, and you target the one that isn’t using the 4++ base – and that you’re running Alaitoc)
Doom 1st Knight.
Knight rotates ion shields after 1st unit targets it.
1st WW unit does 6.125 damage.
2nd and 3rd unit target 2nd Knight
Knight takes 10.889 points of damage.
Following turn –
You lose 1 unit of WWs from the retaliation fire from the 3 Knights – maybe 2 units if you’re talking 1 Castellan and 2 Crusaders.
2nd turn
Doom 1 Knight
Knight rotates shields
Do another 6.125 damage.
Do another 8.167 damage to 2nd Knight if you have the 2nd unit alive still.
It just doesn’t add up over the turns to doing enough damage quick enough to remove the Knights from the table. However, if you add in Jinx, then you do not need to switch targets and 18 Bright Lance shots re-rollings 1s and all wounds, will kill a Knight on average.
But. you also then have to consider what happens, when you DON’T face 1400-1800 points of Knights. 810 points of your army is now setup to kill tanks, and, will, at most, kill 18 individual horde models a turn.
Likewise, with something like a Scorpion or a Shadowsword. If they get multiple turns of shooting, they can kill Knights – but, they aren’t going to get multiple turns of shooting most of the time vs Knights.
In order to kill 1 Knight, most armies need to be spending 1750-2000 points on taking them down 1 at a time, from full wounds to 0 in 1 turn. Failure to do so results in you losing your ability to continue to remove the Knights before they start to take advantage of their shooting and combat to take control of the table.
Windrider spam, has duality and options as well. Sure, it will do slightly less damage to each of the Knights if they have to switch targets – but, the beauty of it, is they do not need to switch targets in order to kill a Knight if Doom and Jinx both go off, and, they are able to easily clear up hordes and other units without problems whilst maintaining a high level of table presense.
When looking at the matchup 1 Crusader and 1 Castellan will, between them, kill 1 unit of 3 WWs or 1 unit of 9 Windriders. Both units die – however, the Windriders have the benefit of being able to use Lightening Fast Reflexes for an additional -1 to hit, which then results in the Windrider squad surviving with 2-4 bikes left. Losing 1 squad of Windriders isn’t going to hurt your overall game plan, as much as losing 6 Bright Lances would in regards to a Knight matchup.
Of course, in the WW situation, it will all depend on what you spend your spare 908 points on – just as much as it depends on what you spend the 356 points on if you use the Windriders. This becomes 176 and 728 points respectively if you take the required 180 point troop tax. 728 is a lot of points to help you out, but, the options are a bit rough for Craftworlds imo. You could run 2 units of Shining Spears and a Hemlock for Jinx, but, the Spears then get no support and you’re banking on a flat 7+ for Jinx to be cast. Or you could run Fire Prisms, but then you need to talk about CP costs and additional screening as you’d be full gunline at this point so you’re just inviting people to take table control and charge your WWs. You could even run 5 Wave Serpents (which is an idea worth looking into).
The only problem I have, is spending that much on backfield units that are generally static, has the potential to seriously impact you in terms of mission scoring.
Don't get me wrong, I would never run 9 walkers in a list, it was more of a theory crafting exercise. I rely on people cleverer than I to crunch numbers!
I have posted a list in the army list forum of how I'd try to fight a knight list which is flexible enough to hopefully take on other types of army too.
fresus wrote: Oh right, the battle brothers rule specifically gives an exception to fortification networks, I missed that.
However, now looking at the keywords, you still need a Harlequin detachment to have access to the harlequin strats which includes the only reasonable ones for the webway gate
For killing the 3++ knight, you just can't really look past the haywire cannon from harlequin skyweavers. I seriously hope they don't get nerfed in CA as they are the only real way to hurt a 3++ knight. Good thing in addition, if they survive long enough to remove the knight, they are excellent at killing screens and hordes.
For my newer list I'm looking for some combination of harlequin skyweavers and troupes, a couple of hemlocks and a doomseer on bike. Probably an Eldar battalion coupled with a harlequin outrider.
Dont discount a Haywire Scourge Outrider detachment for the same role. Three MSU teams are under 300 points (plus a cheapo HQ like a Red Grief Succubus, bonus if you burn a CP to give her the Glaive and have her blender-ify stuff on the cheap) and have a non-zero chance of oneshotting a full blown Knight with doom support.
They generally wont survive the countervolley, but spending 300 points to take out a Castellan aint a bad trade IMO.
Aleo worth to remember we can upgrade some tactics, instead of a guardian bomb we do a wraithguard bomb, thats 10 str 10 -4ap 1d6 with elite slot wich can fit nicely in ab ynarri supreme detachment for double shoot.
Also the wraithguard melee can dish a decent punishment with their 1d3 dmg attacks.
So I'm thinking of starting Eldar. I play in a fairly competitive environment, ITC and Maelstrom.
From reading the last couple of pages it seems like the SC set/ new Wake the Dead. and a couple boxes of rangers are are good place to start. Any other suggestions? Looking to get to 2k.
Our most competitive units are probably dark reapers, hemlock wraith fighters, shining spears and fire prisms. It kind of depends on how you want to play the army.
kingheff wrote: Our most competitive units are probably dark reapers, hemlock wraith fighters, shining spears and fire prisms. It kind of depends on how you want to play the army.
Agreed. With Alaitoc as the most competitive Craftworld trait.
kingheff wrote: Our most competitive units are probably dark reapers, hemlock wraith fighters, shining spears and fire prisms. It kind of depends on how you want to play the army.
Agreed. With Alaitoc as the most competitive Craftworld trait.
Plus we have great psychic powers that work as great buffs/debuffs.
Don't forget the venerable doom/jinx warlock/spiritseer/farseer or warlock skyrunner/farseer skyrunner combo. Autarchs are fun but eldar psychic is just way too good. Eldrad is also a beast. Also Wave Serpents are ridiculously good at their job in a list that requires a "feels unkillable for the points" troop delivery system.
How do you equip your Autarchs? I'm planning to convert the Swooping Hawk Wing variant into the one from DoW2, but I'm not quite sure how to equip her.
Fusion Gun would be true to the game, but the reaper launcher looks just so much stronger, even though it's a heavy weapon which is a bit counter intuitive on such a mobile character (BS2+ helps though).
Also, the new reserve rules kind of nerfed the Autarch, didn't they?
BertBert wrote: How do you equip your Autarchs? I'm planning to convert the Swooping Hawk Wing variant into the one from DoW2, but I'm not quite sure how to equip her.
Fusion Gun would be true to the game, but the reaper launcher looks just so much stronger, even though it's a heavy weapon which is a bit counter intuitive on such a mobile character (BS2+ helps though).
Also, the new reserve rules kind of nerfed the Autarch, didn't they?
Have been trying to run a Saim-hann Windrunner autarch with Reaper Launcher and Mark of the Incomparable Hunter. So far he has never made himself worth the effort. At this point I'd rather recommend a Lance Autarch to charge with Shining Spears or as a buff bot jumping between places(Wings or Windrunner).
I often run my swooping hawk wing autarch with the reaper launcher, fusion pistol and shard of anaris power sword. The fusion pistol is nice because he can even snipe in melee. If you can find a enemy character without an invulnerable save he can be quite vicious.
The only time I tend to use something different is if I run as Biel tan and I use the natural leader trait for his guide type buff.
Hunter Rocket Autarchs are highly variable depending on what your opponent brings. Something like Guard or Orks who have (relatively) squishy infantry characters that they rely on are made for that build, but against stuff like Custodes, Marines or Demons where the characters are intensely beefy they're much less impactful.
Run doom on a farseer and jinx on a warlock or spiritseer. Hit any target with both spells and watch it melt under fire. Take the skyrunner versions for extra mobility.
BertBert wrote: How do you equip your Autarchs? I'm planning to convert the Swooping Hawk Wing variant into the one from DoW2, but I'm not quite sure how to equip her.
I went for Jetbike, Lance and Banshee mask along with Fate's Messenger for an extra wound and a 6+++. Mostly he is a buff character using his mobility to apply his rerolls wherever they are required but if the situation call for it, he is quite capable of taking on characters and small squads by himself or pitching alongside a Wraithlord to negate overwatch and take down bigger prey.
While not as exciting as another Psyker, he can buff several squads with careful positioning, he cannot be denied and he is much punchier in combat. The ability to recycle CPs on a 6+ is handy as well since we are a fairly Stratagem-hungry army.
zerosignal wrote: "As for Jinx, its Warp Charge 7, which means it will only go off 50% of the time."
58.3%
Don't forget the Command re-roll. I'd bet that ups the chances quite a bit. It does for me at least, using it to reroll the lowest of the 2 dice.
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Jinx is still Warp Charge 7 and only goes off 50% of the time statistically. Sure, one can improve the chances slightly (assuming you have the CP or haven't spent a CP to perform a re-roll already that phase). Don't treat warlocks like they are Farseers and have built in free re-roll options. There is a cost to that re-roll both in terms of CP and the limiting of the option to use that CP elsewhere.
Spartacus wrote: Jinx will up your effective damage by a whopping 50% when used on a target with a 3++. I'd say that's worth investing some significant resources into.
I never suggested investing resources into Jinx had no worth. I am merely trying to state that its effectiveness (i.e. the ability to reduce saving throws) is not a foregone conclusion like many people think. There are drawbacks and risks to its usage.
- About half of the time, it will require a CP to be manifested
- At an 18" range, it requires maneuvering to ensure the Psyker casting it has range, possibly putting the Psyker in denial range, and almost certainly putting said Psyker in a position to be shot/charged the next turn
Sure additional Stratagems can be used to bolster the chances for success, but those come with other requirements themselves (e.g. Having a Farseer near the Warlock to for the +1 or taking a Conclave to double the range). When it goes off, it is a great power, but the player base should not pretend that it is going off 100% of the time.
Spartacus wrote: Jinx will up your effective damage by a whopping 50% when used on a target with a 3++. I'd say that's worth investing some significant resources into.
I never suggested investing resources into Jinx had no worth. I am merely trying to state that its effectiveness (i.e. the ability to reduce saving throws) is not a foregone conclusion like many people think. There are drawbacks and risks to its usage.
- About half of the time, it will require a CP to be manifested
- At an 18" range, it requires maneuvering to ensure the Psyker casting it has range, possibly putting the Psyker in denial range, and almost certainly putting said Psyker in a position to be shot/charged the next turn
Sure additional Stratagems can be used to bolster the chances for success, but those come with other requirements themselves (e.g. Having a Farseer near the Warlock to for the +1 or taking a Conclave to double the range). When it goes off, it is a great power, but the player base should not pretend that it is going off 100% of the time.
No need to defend yourself, no one is disagreeing with you. Its a psychic power so its not 100% reliable, same with Doom. No one ever claimed that it was.
mokoshkana wrote: Don't treat warlocks like they are Farseers and have built in free re-roll options. There is a cost to that re-roll both in terms of CP and the limiting of the option to use that CP elsewhere.
Although since Farseers DO have built-in rerolls, one could cast with them first and then any Warlocks and thus have the Command reroll readily available for that phase.
Jinx has been well worth that particular investment in every game I've played so far. as I use it in conjunction with my Hemlocks that can move within range of a Character (after removing any bubble wrap of course) cast Jinx and remove said Character in the shooting phase.
It's also vital to take out Knights.
I will note that you should only attempt to reroll 1s or 2s and only if the other dice is a 4 or 5. Otherwise, you are probably wasting a CP
Hopefully you guys don't mind me interjecting with a few questions; How good are the FW Shadow Spectres outside of being pretty models? They seem like really maneuverable MEQ killers but they're quite pricey in terms of points and they seem to be in competition with Shining Spears. They do have an interesting gimmick of additional hits with shooting so what are people's thoughts on them?
Then just a quick question for Banshees and Scorpions: are they worth playing?
Galef wrote: Don't forget the Command re-roll. I'd bet that ups the chances quite a bit. It does for me at least, using it to reroll the lowest of the 2 dice.
Galef wrote: I will note that you should only attempt to reroll 1s or 2s and only if the other dice is a 4 or 5. Otherwise, you are probably wasting a CP
Unfortunately, you cannot do that:
WH40k Rulebook Errata wrote:Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’
Now, using "Runes of the Farseer" to reroll a dice is ok - but not the CP stratagem.
WH40k Rulebook Errata wrote:Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’
Now, using "Runes of the Farseer" to reroll a dice is ok - but not the CP stratagem.
The CP re-roll stratagem doesn't tell you to re-roll a 'result', it specifically says "You can re-roll any single dice".
The above FaQ doesn't apply. Where it would apply is something like the Biel-tan spirit stone relic that Amish mentioned, which allows you to re-roll a failed psychic test. In that case, you'd need to re-roll ALL (both) the dice.
Getting your opponent to shoot at Serpents with Spirit Stones and vectored engines is a great way to castrate their shooting. If there is one thing that will force your enemy to aim at your Serpents, its a hold full of Wraithmen with D Weapons (people still have terrifying nightmares of 7th Ed. Wraithguard).
Cannons vs Scythes really depends on your opponents army unfortunately, hard to make a call for a TAC list. Id say if you're likely to be charged by opponents who can actually damage you (i.e. not just smothered by screening trash), the Scythes are worth the extra 10ppm.
Obviously if you Webway them, cannons all the way.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Hopefully you guys don't mind me interjecting with a few questions; How good are the FW Shadow Spectres outside of being pretty models? They seem like really maneuverable MEQ killers but they're quite pricey in terms of points and they seem to be in competition with Shining Spears. They do have an interesting gimmick of additional hits with shooting so what are people's thoughts on them?
Then just a quick question for Banshees and Scorpions: are they worth playing?
Shadow spectres are decent, good at taking down infantry but a bit expensive and fragile, they require careful use but are dangerous. They're hard hitting skirmishers, at least that's the way I see them.
I like banshees, more as a disruptive unit usually, unless you're fighting guard or something equally squishy, they're great for charging things with flamers etc or to shut down a tank. I usually run a squad of seven in a wave serpent with five fire dragons. The dragons jump out and shoot whilst the banshees charge in to either shut down whatever the dragons shot at or to prevent a counter attack via charge or gunfire.
Scorpions seem best used in a shooting army, I've run a couple of squads in an alaitoc gunline list and they're handy for popping up on objectives in later turns. They don't do a lot offensively but with a 2+ save in cover they can take a bit of shifting.
zerosignal wrote: "As for Jinx, its Warp Charge 7, which means it will only go off 50% of the time."
58.3%
Don't forget the Command re-roll. I'd bet that ups the chances quite a bit. It does for me at least, using it to reroll the lowest of the 2 dice.
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Jinx is still Warp Charge 7 and only goes off 50% of the time statistically. Sure, one can improve the chances slightly (assuming you have the CP or haven't spent a CP to perform a re-roll already that phase). Don't treat warlocks like they are Farseers and have built in free re-roll options. There is a cost to that re-roll both in terms of CP and the limiting of the option to use that CP elsewhere.
On 2D6, Jinx has a 57.1429% chance of going off without any re-rolls of any kind. This is because there is 21 different 2d6 outcomes, and 12 of them = 7+.
The Biel-Tan relic is very very useful for casting those critical powers, but, I feel it only works in certain lists or Ynnari. I personally much prefer to use the +1 to cast stratagem when a Farseer and Warlock are within 6” of each other. This essentially gives you a 71.428% chance of casting Jinx without a re-roll.
As for Wraiths, I just wish most of the units weren’t so damn expensive!
Only adds up to 1762 points so there's room for more to round it out to 2000, not sure what yet.
I considered shining spears instead of skyweavers, as they'd have better synergy with the warlock powers. But skyweavers seem to be better, and the warlocks can still use their Jinx and Drain to help the skyrunners murder things and stay alive. The Protect and Enhance parts of their powers can be aimed at wraithguard units if they're nearby, or somehting else I could add to the list with the remaining 200 points.
Very few drops though, very elite list, not sure it'll work but seems like it might be fun to make.
Edit: Actually only 1660 points, as I forgot my version on the list actually has a solitaire in it as well (because well they're pretty cool), but not sure it's worth having a solitaire on the table in this style of list. [
I think you're better off running the outrider detachment as Ynnari and dropping the troupe. I don't think the skyweavers rely on Rising Crescendo and the masque abilities as much as the other harlequin units do. Then you could take the points saved from the TM/troupe/starweaver and put them into increasing one or two of the Skyweaver squads. Equip them with Haywire Cannons, add doom, and now you have a really potent anti vehicle list. Yvraine can go into the Wave Serpent as well, which is a bonus.
mokoshkana wrote: I think you're better off running the outrider detachment as Ynnari and dropping the troupe. I don't think the skyweavers rely on Rising Crescendo and the masque abilities as much as the other harlequin units do. Then you could take the points saved from the TM/troupe/starweaver and put them into increasing one or two of the Skyweaver squads. Equip them with Haywire Cannons, add doom, and now you have a really potent anti vehicle list. Yvraine can go into the Wave Serpent as well, which is a bonus.
I had the fusion troupe as an open-topped driveby shooting unit, though the skyweavers also do a similar role I guess, and it would certainly be a saving in points.
In which case, is it also worth changing the wraithguard detachment into being Ynnari as well, so that Yvraine can buff them with her spells? The alternative would be Iyanden/Ulthwe
mokoshkana wrote: I think you're better off running the outrider detachment as Ynnari and dropping the troupe. I don't think the skyweavers rely on Rising Crescendo and the masque abilities as much as the other harlequin units do. Then you could take the points saved from the TM/troupe/starweaver and put them into increasing one or two of the Skyweaver squads. Equip them with Haywire Cannons, add doom, and now you have a really potent anti vehicle list. Yvraine can go into the Wave Serpent as well, which is a bonus.
I had the fusion troupe as an open-topped driveby shooting unit, though the skyweavers also do a similar role I guess, and it would certainly be a saving in points.
In which case, is it also worth changing the wraithguard detachment into being Ynnari as well, so that Yvraine can buff them with her spells? The alternative would be Iyanden/Ulthwe
Yeah, that makes sense. while fusion pistols in star weavers are cool, they only really work as soaring spite as you'll need the extra 6" range from advance to ensure you get into pistol range. Compare that against a 40" range that also does pretty well against horde armies too, and the answer is pretty simple.
I think they're really cool and my Dark Reapers have not been living up to their hype. Reapers are cool as hell, though so I'll probably keep them. But the bright lances and reaper launchers just aren't cutting it and the Fire Prism seems to be an anti-everything vehicle. Do you ever find yourself using the dispersed beam or do you pretty much solely use them as tank/monster hunters?
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